From dennyj at mac.com Sat Dec 1 12:27:30 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:27:30 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... In-Reply-To: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: Good morning all, Shabbat Shalom! I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. Can you imagine the noise? Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking about and questioning him about where he is at now in his journey. Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to go at this time. He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed into somewhat of a different character. Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience and now consider themselves more Noahide in their understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. We didn't really understand what happened, but after my conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. He started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers he went deep into textual criticism and was at a place much like what you all have been sharing with me. But he told me that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper into the same issues with the O.T. he ran into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go any further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to believe in or teach my children". He knows enough now to completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted to. He doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God of our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He basically told me that i really don't want to go down this road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and basically get really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My fear is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know truth if what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period of my life as a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling time. One thing that stand out to me know is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and what I love about what I see in this group is the obvious love, kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see here. You all are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to identify with you in any way because others might think that i believe as you do and that would not be good. I proudly identify with you because you are all good and humble people who really do know how to live a life of love. Thank you for your example. Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all the noise around here. Blessings of Sabbath to you all. Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/3029ffa4/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Dec 1 12:52:33 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:52:33 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Message-ID: <120120071852.22967.4751AD7000064F9E000059B722230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I empathize with you Denny, this is very unsettling and I would venture to say that because it unsettles you you are blessed. There are many who don't care enough to let it unsettle them. You are right in your characterization of this as a journey, I've learned enough to know that there is no magic city just on the other side of the hill, we must study and struggle with G-d every step of the way. He expects it of us and it means He is with us on the entire journey. Just remember that it is with G-d that you struggle, not man. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before G-d. I don't know if it will help but I told Ross when we started that I had driven three stakes in the ground; 1. G-d is G-d, YHWH, There is no other. 2. Yeshua is THE Messiah, the Anointed Prince and I will follow him. 3. The Bible, as a whole is the inspired word of G-d, His thought and will for His creation. I have found no reason to date to move those stakes. But they are mine and I won't impose them on anyone else. Everything else is up for discussion. Shalom my brother. The dialouge helps me to work these things through, we have good, learned men and women of G-d with us. Hope you stay with us. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Denny Johnson : -------------- Good morning all, Shabbat Shalom! I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. Can you imagine the noise? Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking about and questioning him about where he is at now in his journey. Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to go at this time. He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed into somewhat of a different character. Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience and now consider themselves more Noahide in their understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. We didn't really understand what happened, but after my conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. He started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers he went deep into textual criticism and was at a place much like what you all have been sharing with me. But he told me that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper into the same issues with the O.T. he ran into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go any further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to believe in or teach my children". He knows enough now to completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted to. He doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God of our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He basically told me that i really don't want to go down this road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and basica lly get really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My fear is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know truth if what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period of my life as a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling time. One thing that stand out to me know is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and what I love about what I see in this group is the obvious love, kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see here. You all are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to identify with you in any way because others might think that i believe as you do and that would not be good. I proudly identify with you because you are all good and humble people who really do know h ow to live a life of love. Thank you for your example. Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all the noise around here. Blessings of Sabbath to you all. Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/a0167659/attachment.html From dennyj at mac.com Sat Dec 1 13:21:27 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:21:27 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Live Chat In-Reply-To: <120120071852.22967.4751AD7000064F9E000059B722230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <120120071852.22967.4751AD7000064F9E000059B722230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <88D24469-779E-474C-A682-A2DC83114FF7@mac.com> Hey John, Is there a live chat login for the dialogue today? Denny From JCARLSO at entergy.com Sat Dec 1 13:24:01 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:24:01 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Live Chat Message-ID: Denny, What is your email address? "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sat Dec 01 13:21:27 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Live Chat Hey John, Is there a live chat login for the dialogue today? Denny _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/08b57160/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Sat Dec 1 13:25:09 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:25:09 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Live Chat Message-ID: Dave just sent you an invite. Are you online? "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sat Dec 01 13:21:27 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Live Chat Hey John, Is there a live chat login for the dialogue today? Denny _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/d55197ef/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Sat Dec 1 13:26:43 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:26:43 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Live Chat Message-ID: If not then just send your input here and I will relay it. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sat Dec 01 13:21:27 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Live Chat Hey John, Is there a live chat login for the dialogue today? Denny _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/930b54d0/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Sat Dec 1 13:30:41 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:30:41 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] new from Alaska In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ross, Thank you for the welcome, and yes I live in Anchorage, Alaska. My son and I listened to you live for the first time this morning and we learned a lot. We are both disabled and have a hard time taking notes. We would really appreciate it if you could post all the scripture citations either before or after. And, Thank you for inviting me to start a thread. I will, but let me read more and maybe respond first to Kim and Pat who have already responded to my Green Menorah Hanukkah message from Rabbi Waskow. Rabbi Waskow was one of the authors of "The Tent of Abraham," which is what inspired me to begin studying about the roots of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. His Synagogue is multi-faith and his newsletter at the Shalom Center is very good, and free. I have leaned so much from that site. My Rabbi teacher said he was a student of James Tabor and he is a good friend, but he doesn't agree with him on everything. I hope I can get him to contribute to your group because I am so much still a beginner in this new direction in my life searching for spiritual truth. I also have a Christian teacher and a Muslim teacher. Like Denny I have been through deconstruction from my agnostic secular humanism thinking (I have never been a Christian), and now searching for what to add to a blank slate, some from my past experience but mostly adrift... I have no map ... kind of like what you said this morning that in a way we are all Abrahams. Thank you again, and now I want to respond to Pat and Kim, and also to Denny since we have something in common, snow. Bonnie On Nov 30, 2007, at 2:42 PM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: > Dear Bonnie, > > Thanks for sending this to the list and welcome to the dialogue. > When you have time, and if you wouldn't mind, please start a new > thread and tell us something about you. > > Are you in Alaska? > > Shalom, Ross > > Ross K. Nichols > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and > top money wasters of 2007. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/af1e1a76/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Sat Dec 1 13:59:48 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:59:48 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] The Shalom Center requests that this message be passed on to friends In-Reply-To: <20071201003110.WV1KC.85251.root@fepweb04> References: <20071201003110.WV1KC.85251.root@fepweb04> Message-ID: Hi Kim and Pat, Thank you for responding with your prompt warm welcome. Did you check out Rabbi Waskow's website. I have learned a lot from his writings and being on his free email newsletter. I am in Alaska and the temperature is 25 and I am hoping it will warm up again, since I didn't have my driveway plowed after our first snow and now I have huge frozen ice tire grooves, which is hard on plows and I may have to pay extra. I see Pat is in Georgia. It would be neat to post a map on the website of where everyone is. Bonnie On Nov 30, 2007, at 8:31 PM, kim.alvarado at charter.net wrote: > Thank you for the post! Would love to hear more about you! > > Kim > > ---- patricia robbins wrote: > > ============= > > Very good, Bonnie! Thank you so much, and welcome!!!! > > Pat > > > Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:12:49 -0900From: b.nelson at alaska.comTo: > dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] The Shalom Center > requests that this message be passed on to friends > Hello, > I am new to this very good dialoging on many different threads. > One of the very good things I have learned from my Rabbi friends > that is different from Christians is they like and encourage > everyone thinking and believing differently. Most Christians seem > to think it is important for everyone to think like them because > they know what God thinks, more than Jews, Muslims or Buddhists, > etc.. My Rabbi teacher tells me there is only One God and He or > She loves All people, not just the children of Israel. The other > wonderful thing he has taught me different from most Christians is > how important deeds (including political activism) are for bringing > about Tikkun Olam. My Rabbi teacher asked me to pass on this > message from his friend who is the Director of the Shalom Center. > I plan to listen to Ross on Saturday for the first time, live. I > have listened to some of his archives. I am going to be very busy > reading so many wonderful emails. I agree that Hanoch's story would > be a good book > Bonnie > The Shalom Center requests that this message be passed on to friends > http://www.shalomctr.org/taxonomy_menu/1/1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the first night of Hanukkah, my true love said to me -"Let's buy > wind-power forE-lec-tri-city"! On the fourth night of Hanukkah, my > rabbi said to me -"Car-pool tonight!Give the Breath of LifeA chance > to catch new breathWhen we gather to chant of our delight!" > On the eighth night of Hanukkah,My granddaughter said to me: "Sit > down and write!Our Senators should know that I need to growAnd that > means we should cut the CO2!" The Eight Days of Hanukkah: Eight > Actions to Heal the Earth through the Green Menorah Covenant Please > share this message with your friends, congregants, etc -- and post > the "eight-day actions" on your refrigerator door. Then act on them! > > > > > > > A Prophetic Voice in Jewish, Multireligious, and American Life > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Hanukkah, we are taught not only to light the menorah night by > night, but to publicize the miracle, to turn our individual actions > outward for the rest of the world to see and to be inspired by. > So we invite you to join, this Hanukkah, in The Shalom Center 's > Green Menorah Covenant for taking action - personal, communal, and > political - to heal the earth from the global climate crisis. > After lighting your menorah each evening, dedicate yourself to > making the changes in your life that will allow our limited sources > of energy to last for as long as they're needed, and with minimal > impact on our climate.No single action will solve the global > climate crisis, just as no one of us alone can make enough of a > difference. Yet, if we act on as many of the areas below as > possible, and act together, a seemingly small group of people can > overcome a seemingly intractable crisis. We can, as in days of old, > turn this time of darkness into one of light.Day 1: Personal/ > Household: Call your electric-power utility to switch to wind- > powered electricity. (For each home, 100% wind-power reduces CO2 > emissions the same as not driving 20,000 miles in one year.)Day 2: > Synagogue, Hillel, or JCC: Urge your congregation or community > building to switch to wind-powered electricity.Day 3. Your network > of friends, IM buddies, and members of civic or professional groups > you belong to: Connect with people like newspaper editors, real- > estate developers, architects, bankers, etc. to urge them to > strengthen the green factor in all their decisions, speeches, and > actions.Day 4 (which this year is Shabbat). Automobile: If > possible, choose today or one other day a week to not use your car > at all. Other days, lessen driving. Shop on-line. Cluster errands. > Carpool. Don't idle engine beyond 20 seconds.Day 5: Workplace or > College: Urge the top officials to arrange an energy audit. Check > with utility company about getting one free or at low-cost.Day 6: > Town/City: Urge town/city officials to require greening of > buildings through ordinances and executive orders. Creating change > is often easier on the local level!Day 7: State: Urge state > representatives to reduce subsidies for highways, increase them for > mass transit. > Day 8: National: Urge your Senators to strengthen and pass the > Lieberman-Warner "America's Climate Security Act." For easy > addressing and a model letter to send them, go to -- http:// > salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/602/t/4181/campaign.jsp? > campaign_KEY=21544 Make our planet's Hanukkah a happy one!- - - > - - - - - - - - - - - - -_ From Rabbis Arthur Waskow & Jeff Sultar > of The Shalom Center and its Green Menorah Covenant. > ??? For more information, to explore having your congregation or > community becoming a partner in the Green Menorah Covenant, or to > arrange for Green Menorah resource people to visit your community, > please contact Rabbi Sultar at greenmenorah at shalomctr.org or (215) > 438-2983.Please remember to share this message with your friends, > congregants, etc - and post the "eight-day actions" on your > refrigerator door. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ From b.nelson at alaska.com Sat Dec 1 14:19:40 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 11:19:40 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow In-Reply-To: References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: Hi Denny, I really liked reading your email this morning and making me realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I am wondering where you live. I also related to what you said about deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me even though I have never been Christian. I like being unburdened and adrift, it's like we are trying to create our maps, but doing it collaboratively is way more rewarding than alone. Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: > Good morning all, > Shabbat Shalom! > > I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our > grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. > It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. Can > you imagine the noise? > > Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent > conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. > I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking > about and questioning him about where he is at now in his journey. > Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our family > and has been down this road much deeper than I care to go at this > time. > He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath > fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret > Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) > They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main group > has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed into > somewhat of a different character. > Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience and > now consider themselves more Noahide in their understanding. It was > quite a shock to those that knew them. > We didn't really understand what happened, but after my > conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. He > started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the trinity, > virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers he went deep > into textual criticism and was at a place much like what you all > have been sharing with me. But he told me that it didn't stop with > questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper into the same issues with the > O.T. he ran into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last > night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go any > further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to believe in > or teach my children". He knows enough now to completely destroy a > Christians faith if he wanted to. He doesn't want to by the way. He > still has faith in the God of our fathers but it is a lot different > than it used to be. He basically told me that i really don't want > to go down this road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and > basically get really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the > saying "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead > of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the > wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the > moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. > > I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your postings. > They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. And yet there > is still fear inside me concerning this path. I am unsure now how > to pray and have a relationship with God. My fear is that it is not > based on truth. And how can I know truth if what I have to base it > on is not reliable, namely the Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I > would describe this period of my life as a deconstruction period. > It is a very unsettling time. One thing that stand out to me know > is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to > Roots of Faith and what I love about what I see in this group is > the obvious love, kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see > here. You all are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to > identify with you in any way because others might think that i > believe as you do and that would not be good. I proudly identify > with you because you are all good and humble people who really do > know how to live a life of love. Thank you for your example. > > Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with > Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming today. > They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm of the > season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) > > We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all the > noise around here. > > Blessings of Sabbath to you all. > > Denny > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/3bf2658d/attachment.html From dennyj at mac.com Sat Dec 1 14:28:26 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:28:26 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow In-Reply-To: References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: Hi Bonnie, We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan cruise last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an the like. Beautiful country. Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. You are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored to some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know as I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing God is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike trust. He is my Abba. So again, where in Alaska are you? Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: > Hi Denny, > I really liked reading your email this morning and making me > realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I am > wondering where you live. I also related to what you said about > deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me even though I > have never been Christian. I like being unburdened and adrift, it's > like we are trying to create our maps, but doing it collaboratively > is way more rewarding than alone. > Bonnie > > > On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: > >> Good morning all, >> Shabbat Shalom! >> >> I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our >> grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. >> It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. Can >> you imagine the noise? >> >> Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent >> conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. >> I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking >> about and questioning him about where he is at now in his journey. >> Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our family >> and has been down this road much deeper than I care to go at this >> time. >> He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath >> fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret >> Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) >> They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main group >> has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed into >> somewhat of a different character. >> Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience and >> now consider themselves more Noahide in their understanding. It was >> quite a shock to those that knew them. >> We didn't really understand what happened, but after my >> conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. He >> started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the trinity, >> virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers he went deep >> into textual criticism and was at a place much like what you all >> have been sharing with me. But he told me that it didn't stop with >> questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper into the same issues with the >> O.T. he ran into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last >> night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go any >> further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to believe in >> or teach my children". He knows enough now to completely destroy a >> Christians faith if he wanted to. He doesn't want to by the way. He >> still has faith in the God of our fathers but it is a lot different >> than it used to be. He basically told me that i really don't want >> to go down this road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and >> basically get really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the >> saying "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead >> of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the >> wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the >> moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. >> >> I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your postings. >> They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. And yet there >> is still fear inside me concerning this path. I am unsure now how >> to pray and have a relationship with God. My fear is that it is not >> based on truth. And how can I know truth if what I have to base it >> on is not reliable, namely the Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I >> would describe this period of my life as a deconstruction period. >> It is a very unsettling time. One thing that stand out to me know >> is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to >> Roots of Faith and what I love about what I see in this group is >> the obvious love, kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see >> here. You all are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to >> identify with you in any way because others might think that i >> believe as you do and that would not be good. I proudly identify >> with you because you are all good and humble people who really do >> know how to live a life of love. Thank you for your example. >> >> Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with >> Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming today. >> They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm of the >> season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) >> >> We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all the >> noise around here. >> >> Blessings of Sabbath to you all. >> >> Denny >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/38978224/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Sat Dec 1 14:58:55 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 11:58:55 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow In-Reply-To: References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: Hi Denny, I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the possibility of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He has a great respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, not as a God or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I like what your son is doing and thank you for that website. Is it OK to pass it on? How do you get your email address to be in the From: whereas mine is only my name. My email address is b.nelson@ alaska.com Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: > Hi Bonnie, > > We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful day > to be inside enjoying the sabbath. > What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan cruise > last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an the like. > Beautiful country. > Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My wife > and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of our > lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and even a > music ministry for many years travelling the country. You are > accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels strange to > us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored to some things > that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural shift in our > thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. Sure is > different than a simple little sinners prayer and your in. It sure > is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the same place. > There is just something about the Hebrew roots that seems so right > to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know as I will ever get > this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing God is gracious and > loving. I need hang on to my childlike trust. He is my Abba. > > So again, where in Alaska are you? > > Denny > > On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: > >> Hi Denny, >> I really liked reading your email this morning and making me >> realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I am >> wondering where you live. I also related to what you said about >> deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me even though >> I have never been Christian. I like being unburdened and adrift, >> it's like we are trying to create our maps, but doing it >> collaboratively is way more rewarding than alone. >> Bonnie >> >> >> On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >> >>> Good morning all, >>> Shabbat Shalom! >>> >>> I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our >>> grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. >>> It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. Can >>> you imagine the noise? >>> >>> Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent >>> conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. >>> I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking >>> about and questioning him about where he is at now in his journey. >>> Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our family >>> and has been down this road much deeper than I care to go at this >>> time. >>> He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath >>> fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret >>> Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) >>> They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main >>> group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed >>> into somewhat of a different character. >>> Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience and >>> now consider themselves more Noahide in their understanding. It >>> was quite a shock to those that knew them. >>> We didn't really understand what happened, but after my >>> conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. >>> He started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the >>> trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers he >>> went deep into textual criticism and was at a place much like >>> what you all have been sharing with me. But he told me that it >>> didn't stop with questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper into the >>> same issues with the O.T. he ran into many problems there, too. >>> As he put it to me last night...."Dad, I looked over the fence >>> and decided not to go any further for fear that there wouldn't be >>> anything left to believe in or teach my children". He knows >>> enough now to completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted >>> to. He doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God >>> of our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He >>> basically told me that i really don't want to go down this road. >>> Many get depressed and lose all faith and basically get really >>> messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying "Ignorance is >>> bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead of me in >>> intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the wall and >>> just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the moment. I >>> feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. >>> >>> I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your >>> postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. >>> And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I am >>> unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My fear >>> is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know truth if >>> what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the Bible, the >>> Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period of my life as >>> a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling time. One thing >>> that stand out to me know is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how >>> I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and what I love about >>> what I see in this group is the obvious love, kindness and unity >>> and love of Hashem that I see here. You all are awesome! The >>> Christian way would tell me not to identify with you in any way >>> because others might think that i believe as you do and that >>> would not be good. I proudly identify with you because you are >>> all good and humble people who really do know how to live a life >>> of love. Thank you for your example. >>> >>> Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with >>> Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming today. >>> They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm of the >>> season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) >>> >>> We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all >>> the noise around here. >>> >>> Blessings of Sabbath to you all. >>> >>> Denny >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/d9f3190d/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Dec 1 15:07:20 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:07:20 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow Message-ID: <120120072107.7849.4751CD0800004FB200001EA922230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Bonnie, Welcome to the group and thanks for your contributions to the discussions. If you have a photo of yourself you can send it to Ross and he will put it up on the ROF page, it's good to put faces to the names. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Bonnie Nelson : -------------- Hi Denny, I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the possibility of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He has a great respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, not as a God or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I like what your son is doing and thank you for that website. Is it OK to pass it on? How do you get your email address to be in the From: whereas mine is only my name. My email address is b.nelson@ alaska.com Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hi Bonnie, We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan cruise last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an the like. Beautiful country. Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. You are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored to some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know as I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing God is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike trust. He is my Abba. So again, where in Alaska are you? Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hi Denny, I really liked reading your email this morning and making me realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I am wondering where you live. I also related to what you said about deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me even though I have never been Christian. I like being unburdened and adrift, it's like we are trying to create our maps, but doing it collaboratively is way more rewarding than alone. Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: Good morning all, Shabbat Shalom! I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. Can you imagine the noise? Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking about and questioning him about where he is at now in his journey. Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to go at this time. He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed into somewhat of a different character. Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience and now consider themselves more Noahide in their understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. We didn't really understand what happened, but after my conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. He started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers he went deep into textual criticism and was at a place much like what you all have been sharing with me. But he told me that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper into the same issues with the O.T. he ran into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go any further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to believe in or teach my children". He knows enough now to completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted to. He doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God of our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He basically told me that i really don't want to go down this road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and basica lly get really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My fear is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know truth if what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period of my life as a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling time. One thing that stand out to me know is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and what I love about what I see in this group is the obvious love, kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see here. You all are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to identify with you in any way because others might think that i believe as you do and that would not be good. I proudly identify with you because you are all good and humble people who really do know h ow to live a life of love. Thank you for your example. Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all the noise around here. Blessings of Sabbath to you all. Denny _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/b5821594/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Dec 1 15:57:53 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:57:53 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...Yeshua's grave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <023601c83465$39a07f20$653c66c9@bettygivin> Okay, James, you are too cute; but I deserved that! Now I am really embarrassed! BTW, it was good to hear from you as well, Dick and Ronnie. You let me down a little easier than my brother! For anyone who is interested, you can check out my brother's book, 'The Jesus Dynasty', turn to page 239 and read about the grave and see the photo of James there at the site! I knew that years ago, I had heard all about this; and that in my more recent past, it had come up again. I just forgot that it was your book, James, which had brought it back to mind. Please forgive me as I received my Medicare card in the mail the other day, and am in denial; so I am using that along with the chaos in my life at present, as an excuse for my lapse into senility. Hopefully this will not be a permanent thing, as I will not like it one b Seriously, if any of you have not read 'The Jesus Dynasty," and are planning on purchasing it, you might want to consider the paperback version as it has an interesting report on 'The Jesus Family Tomb,' based on the documentary which aired on Discovery this past Spring. The documentary gives another possible burial site for Yeshua in his own family tomb, which adds but another question to those open minded enough to take a look into the possibility of finding answers beyond the parameters we have set for ourselves at any given time. I am sure that you have read that Simcha Jacobivichi will be coming to the April UIWU meeting. He, like Hanoch is an observant Orthodox Jew, and also like Hanoch, has a true heart for Brother Joseph! I think it is a great idea that Ross had about getting a ROF busload together to make the trip. It would be such a blessing for all of us to be together in the same place! Shabbat Shalom all! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Or, you could just read your brother's book, and see the photo of me at that grave...:-) James On Nov 28, 2007, at 7:23 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a lot of "hanging going on!" For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a love and appreciation for Torah. And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as do we. Just because he is more often associated with Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should not negate the fact that he was an observant Jew. I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow under the impression that according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in Israel (I have forgotten the location) where there is a gravesite attributed to Yeshua and that his grave, among others, is one that has been visited and venerated by pious rabbis down thru the ages??? I really don't think I dreamed this. I thought you might have heard of this Hanoch. If not, we might need to check with my brother. Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Hey Dick - How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it really makes me happy to be here! Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an interesting one. Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority on Jewish Law (Halacha) - I'm barely an amateur! And I'm certainly not a role model if someone is looking for a Jewish guy to emulate. Having said that, if referring to the G-d of Yeshua is done in the same context as the G-d of any other Jew of history (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak, King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me. Ross makes it very clear on the website that Yeshua prayed to the G-d of Abraham; the same G-d we pray to. You DO realize that some Rabbi in Israel is going to hang me one day for having written that, right? LOL Only kidding...... :-) Best regards Dick! Your pal in the Rotten Apple, Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Dick L To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Nice to hear from you again Hanoch! Just a question I have had in my mind for some time. Do you think it would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers to use in there prayers, "God of YeShua". Same God I believe. He prayed "to the God of Israel" " not as God". Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Shalom to all, With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is you, and HaShem, our Creator. If this comes across as disjointed, I apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head' It seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh...... In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to pray.." and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy. As we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no advocate.." In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on.... EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King. The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or benedictions). The first two sentences are the following (transliterated Hebrew, then English): "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov." The translation is simple, the meaning behind it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob." The obvious question is - why the redundancy? After all, the G-d of Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why does it describe it in THATmanner? And here's what I learned, many, many years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since: HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own, distinct relationship with HIM. Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham, or each other, for that matter. So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem, to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael. We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can. Who knows which of us may be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees?? We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at stake. You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his children: "And may you always know the difference between what's important, and what's not." May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new ones.... B'Ahavat Yisrael, Hanoch _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/edb72986/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sat Dec 1 16:32:14 2007 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:32:14 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Message-ID: <120120072232.23953.4751E0EE00043A9500005D9122243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Denny, I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) search for Me with all your heart. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/c95deec5/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 17:07:54 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:07:54 EST Subject: [Dialogue] ] Hanoch's Picture Message-ID: Very sweet and thoughtful Dick, thanks! And yeah, I guess I WAS that fat....LOL Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/059e2161/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 17:21:12 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:21:12 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Prophecy concerning USA and Annapolis Meeting Message-ID: This IS a direct connection between world events and what happens to Israel. We are reaching the days when this will become more, and more obvious....thanks for passing this along..... Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/4add0cc1/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 17:26:05 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:26:05 EST Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga, Part IV..trying to be brief Message-ID: Hey John, Thanks, man - yeah, wouldn't it be something if we had passed each other, once upon a time in the Big, Bad City? And I am totally serious about digitizing those tapes, before they disappear. Unlike my daughters, I don't have an MP3 player, but it IS the wave of the future.... And I really appreciate your kind words about my 'saga,' it's really strange, I've never, ever written this stuff down, and only rarely mentioned it. I hope to get some more installments out quick - Take care and stay well!!!! Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/47aea10e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 17:33:29 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:33:29 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A Sincere Apology Message-ID: You Rock John!!! And speaking of Rock - remind me one day to tell you about taking my daughters (2 years ago) to hear Jethro Tull in Carnegie Hall. Man, if I only had some talent (singing, playing an instrument...) I could have been a rock star!! LOL Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/821eb1f8/attachment.html From dennyj at mac.com Sat Dec 1 17:43:03 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 17:43:03 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... In-Reply-To: <120120072232.23953.4751E0EE00043A9500005D9122243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <120120072232.23953.4751E0EE00043A9500005D9122243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: <822E8653-4C7C-4213-B490-32FD0C9E1E18@mac.com> Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: > Denny, > > I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I > hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to > you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your > behalf. > > As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate > as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from > Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols > of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... > > I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, > and they are found in both the OT and NT. > > Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) > search for Me with all your heart. > > Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for > he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is > a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. > > All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... > > Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. > > Glenn > > > _______________________________________________ From b.nelson at alaska.com Sat Dec 1 17:44:32 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:44:32 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow In-Reply-To: <27D33433-BBC5-4482-B754-4C177D2B10C9@mac.com> References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <27D33433-BBC5-4482-B754-4C177D2B10C9@mac.com> Message-ID: Denny and John C, I think it is still too soon to say I am in this movement. I am actually still considering converting to Jewish, not Messianic Jewish, however, my Christian teacher says that I am moving in the right direction, after all Jesus was a Jew. I am still overwhelmed trying to figure out how "big tent" this movement is; there is so much to read, and it seems many different perspectives; yet everyone is respectful of everyone and I find that wonderful. If searching together for the truth by sharing w/o a requirement that everyone come to the same truth conclusions is the movement, then yes, I am in. However, if everyone has to be of the same belief for what needs to happen in the state of Israel today, then ... I am not moving in the same direction as James Tabor, but I would rather my Rabbi teacher explain why. I am a member of the Tikkun Community of Rabbi Lerner, an interfaith movement. www.tikun.org and currently reading his book, "HEALING ISRAEL/PALESTINE, A Path to Peace and Reconciliation" which is different from what Hanoch, James and Ross are saying ... so I am still wondering if I will be welcome in this dialogue because I really agree with Rabbi Lerner. I wish we could get them to dialogue with each other for us all to hear and maybe then we could really all come together to learn and work for God's mission ... a dream worth working for. Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > Hi Bonnie, > > I have never been in your area. But I hear it is beautiful. > My email address is dennyj at mac.com. > That website is not associated with my son any longer. Aaron Eby is > the one responsible at this time. Aaron also writes for FFOZ > http://www.ffoz.org . > I think you would really like that site if you have never been > there. Our son attends Beth Immanuel http://www.bethimmanuel.org > where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches and leads. You surely have heard > of Daniel and his works. We have had him and his family in our home > a couple of times for Shabbat. Nice family. Good man. > > So, how did you get into this movement? > > Denny > > On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: > >> Hi Denny, >> I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage >> Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the >> "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the possibility >> of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He has a great >> respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, not as a God >> or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I like what your >> son is doing and thank you for that website. Is it OK to pass it >> on? How do you get your email address to be in the From: whereas >> mine is only my name. My email address is >> b.nelson@ alaska.com >> Bonnie >> >> On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >> >>> Hi Bonnie, >>> >>> We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful >>> day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. >>> What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan cruise >>> last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an the like. >>> Beautiful country. >>> Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My >>> wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of >>> our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and >>> even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. You >>> are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels >>> strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored to >>> some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural >>> shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. >>> Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your >>> in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the >>> same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that >>> seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know as >>> I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing God >>> is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike trust. He >>> is my Abba. >>> >>> So again, where in Alaska are you? >>> >>> Denny >>> >>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Denny, >>>> I really liked reading your email this morning and making me >>>> realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I am >>>> wondering where you live. I also related to what you said about >>>> deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me even >>>> though I have never been Christian. I like being unburdened and >>>> adrift, it's like we are trying to create our maps, but doing it >>>> collaboratively is way more rewarding than alone. >>>> Bonnie >>>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good morning all, >>>>> Shabbat Shalom! >>>>> >>>>> I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our >>>>> grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. >>>>> It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. >>>>> Can you imagine the noise? >>>>> >>>>> Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent >>>>> conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. >>>>> I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking >>>>> about and questioning him about where he is at now in his journey. >>>>> Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our >>>>> family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to >>>>> go at this time. >>>>> He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath >>>>> fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret >>>>> Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) >>>>> They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main >>>>> group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed >>>>> into somewhat of a different character. >>>>> Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience >>>>> and now consider themselves more Noahide in their >>>>> understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. >>>>> We didn't really understand what happened, but after my >>>>> conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. >>>>> He started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the >>>>> trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers >>>>> he went deep into textual criticism and was at a place much >>>>> like what you all have been sharing with me. But he told me >>>>> that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper >>>>> into the same issues with the O.T. he ran into many problems >>>>> there, too. As he put it to me last night...."Dad, I looked >>>>> over the fence and decided not to go any further for fear that >>>>> there wouldn't be anything left to believe in or teach my >>>>> children". He knows enough now to completely destroy a >>>>> Christians faith if he wanted to. He doesn't want to by the >>>>> way. He still has faith in the God of our fathers but it is a >>>>> lot different than it used to be. He basically told me that i >>>>> really don't want to go down this road. Many get depressed and >>>>> lose all faith and basically get really messed up. Maybe there >>>>> is some truth to the saying "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. >>>>> You all seem eons ahead of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I >>>>> shall become a fly on the wall and just listen in. I really >>>>> don't know where I am at the moment. I feel like a blank slate >>>>> wanting God to write on me. >>>>> >>>>> I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your >>>>> postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. >>>>> And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I >>>>> am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My >>>>> fear is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know truth >>>>> if what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the Bible, >>>>> the Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period of my >>>>> life as a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling time. >>>>> One thing that stand out to me know is not so much what I >>>>> BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and >>>>> what I love about what I see in this group is the obvious love, >>>>> kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see here. You all >>>>> are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to identify >>>>> with you in any way because others might think that i believe >>>>> as you do and that would not be good. I proudly identify with >>>>> you because you are all good and humble people who really do >>>>> know how to live a life of love. Thank you for your example. >>>>> >>>>> Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with >>>>> Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming >>>>> today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm >>>>> of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) >>>>> >>>>> We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all >>>>> the noise around here. >>>>> >>>>> Blessings of Sabbath to you all. >>>>> >>>>> Denny >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/6ebbb16e/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sat Dec 1 17:54:08 2007 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:54:08 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Message-ID: <120120072354.5199.4751F4200008BEC70000144F22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Yes, Denny - that would be a good stake... I think I'll drive it in, too! I am convinced that the God I serve is the God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob... and Denny and Glenn and Ross and John and Rick and Dave and... :-) I'd like to discuss worship with you sometime... maybe in a forum that won't bore the rest? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/86f3314d/attachment.html From dennyj at mac.com Sat Dec 1 18:28:13 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:28:13 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... In-Reply-To: <120120072354.5199.4751F4200008BEC70000144F22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <120120072354.5199.4751F4200008BEC70000144F22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: <26F5C741-9E6F-4132-9A83-B020C7112F29@mac.com> Amen to that John, and feel free to call me. 763-477-8884 (cell) On Dec 1, 2007, at 5:54 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: > Yes, Denny - that would be a good stake... I think I'll drive it in, > too! I am convinced that the God I serve is the God of Abraham, > Issac, Jacob... and Denny and Glenn and Ross and John and Rick and > Dave and... :-) > > I'd like to discuss worship with you sometime... maybe in a forum > that won't bore the rest? > _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sat Dec 1 18:41:29 2007 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:41:29 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Message-ID: <120220070041.6260.4751FF390001EEB60000187422216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> ... um, that was Glenn again... am I free to call, or only John? ;-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/e4640274/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Sat Dec 1 18:50:45 2007 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:50:45 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole In-Reply-To: <434156.72755.qm@web1001.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <434156.72755.qm@web1001.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008001c8347d$622bc090$0200a8c0@marvin> Rick, Good question. - What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far. However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were "The people" complained and God sent the serpent's. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, "and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live". Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, "and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 The word - man - in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some. If we go back to the first of the chapter we see "the people spoke against God, and against Moses". I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. Rashi in the Chumash says, when the people spoke against God and Moses, "they placed the servant on a par with his Master".. Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the church have done with Jesus? The Chumash goes on to say - our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu. - Jewish Encyclop. Shalom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/2846f678/attachment.html From dennyj at mac.com Sat Dec 1 18:48:17 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:48:17 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... In-Reply-To: <120220070041.6260.4751FF390001EEB60000187422216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <120220070041.6260.4751FF390001EEB60000187422216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: ooooops! I goofed. These can get confusing for an old guy like me. Sorry Glenn. ;-) Anyone can call me! But especially you, Glenn. On Dec 1, 2007, at 6:41 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: > ... um, that was Glenn again... am I free to call, or only John? ;-) > _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Dec 1 19:12:32 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:12:32 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... In-Reply-To: <822E8653-4C7C-4213-B490-32FD0C9E1E18@mac.com> Message-ID: <027d01c83480$6abc9060$653c66c9@bettygivin> Dear friends, After having been away from my computer for at least 3 days due to illness in my family, I couldn't believe my eyes when my inbox showed 90+ messages! Just trying to read them over and digest what I could was quite a challenge, but what a rewarding challenge and blessing it was! No way to respond to all, but I just wanted to say how much each of you have blessed my life by what you have shared and written. Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you! The thing that kept hitting me over and over was that in spite of where we each are on the Path to G-d, that there is such an overwhelming love and respect for one another and also an undeniable unity; not unity in our beliefs, necessarily, for we are at different points, but definitely unity in our search for finding the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and in our love for Torah, the Land Israel and its People. Denny and Glen, I totally agree that that is definitely a place to drive in a stake. This stake is one that will stand the test of time. In fact, it continues to send chills thru me when I read of G-d's promise to Abraham long ago when he brought him out under the stars and told him that he would be the Father of many nations...that his children would be as the stars. Yes, we are "Abrahams" in a sense, or at least "Abraham's seed," for we have been called out, and have heard and heeded the call to put away our idols and serve the one true G-d! Thru everything, that has been the one constant thing, the stable thing in my life, when so much else was crumbling about me...when I was so confused and scared that I couldn't sleep...had constant headaches...just trying to figure it all out. I can so fully identify with so much of this dialogue. It has hit such a personal chord. I really have to watch myself, as I have a tendency to get overly emotional and a bit too excited and go on and on and on, because I do so want to fix everything for everyone that I care about. So I will try to keep this brief. Let me just say that there was a time when Roger and I were going to church on Sunday morning and Sunday night, Joe Good's Bible study on Monday night, church on Wednesday night, Hatikvah congregation on Friday to welcome Shabbat and then back, usually all day Saturday, until evening and Havdalah service (end of Sabbsath, and then back to and church again on Sunday...so that was 5 out of 7 nights a week where we were going from one thing to the next...we were definitely seeking, but also very confused. I think that is when the insomnia and the headaches began... We finally made a decision, and it was a joint decision that the church was a thing of the past. We, like many of you, felt that we had been lied to, betrayed. We lost a lot of friends, and there was so much pain and disillusionment. That decision was not nearly as hard as the ones to come...like the first really BIG issue...the Deity of Yeshua for starters. I remember calling my brother in tears, absolutely beside myself. He listened very patiently, gave me some things to think about, but basically told me that I had to find my own answers; he said go into my closet and pray to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I did that and in time, gained a measure of peace with where it brought me. As I have said before I will always love Yeshua for a number of reasons, but mainly because he brought me to the Father...his Father and the Father of us all. To sum it up in one sentence, and that is hard, is that I have finally come to the point that I don't have to have all the answers, but that doesn't mean that I will ever stop searching...my heart is still open and hope it always will be. Jer:29:31 And you shall seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart Hope everyone has a good week...Shavuah tov, Betty/Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: > Denny, > > I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I > hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to > you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your > behalf. > > As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate > as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from > Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols > of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... > > I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, > and they are found in both the OT and NT. > > Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) > search for Me with all your heart. > > From JCARLSO at entergy.com Sat Dec 1 19:24:45 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:24:45 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga, Part IV..trying to be brief Message-ID: Hey Hanoch, Hope you had a good shabbat. I am totally serious about preserving the tapes as well. I have a complete digital audio recording system and can record them to any format. I can't improve on what is already there but I can preserve them. My treat. All we gotta do is figure out the best (and safest) way to get them here. Whatcha think? "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sat Dec 01 17:26:05 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Saga, Part IV..trying to be brief Hey John, Thanks, man - yeah, wouldn't it be something if we had passed each other, once upon a time in the Big, Bad City? And I am totally serious about digitizing those tapes, before they disappear. Unlike my daughters, I don't have an MP3 player, but it IS the wave of the future.... And I really appreciate your kind words about my 'saga,' it's really strange, I've never, ever written this stuff down, and only rarely mentioned it. I hope to get some more installments out quick - Take care and stay well!!!! Hanoch ________________________________ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/8c027ebc/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Sat Dec 1 19:24:58 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:24:58 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow Message-ID: Hey Bonnie, Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to recruit for a movement in any way. My interest in a photo was for nothing more than what I stated, if you would rather not then that's okay. The dialogue (nor ROF for that matter) has no hidden agenda's. There is no belief checklist or charter. It is solely for the pupose of exchanging ideas and all are welcome with no expectations other than respecting each other. Doctor Tabor is simply another participant in this forum albiet a learned and well respected one as well as a good friend. I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. I do like your discussion idea though. I would love to hear the interchange between Rabbi Lerner, Doctor Tabor and Ross. We would all be certain to learn something. Please continue to jump in here. Shalom. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sat Dec 01 17:44:32 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow Denny and John C, I think it is still too soon to say I am in this movement. I am actually still considering converting to Jewish, not Messianic Jewish, however, my Christian teacher says that I am moving in the right direction, after all Jesus was a Jew. I am still overwhelmed trying to figure out how "big tent" this movement is; there is so much to read, and it seems many different perspectives; yet everyone is respectful of everyone and I find that wonderful. If searching together for the truth by sharing w/o a requirement that everyone come to the same truth conclusions is the movement, then yes, I am in. However, if everyone has to be of the same belief for what needs to happen in the state of Israel today, then ... I am not moving in the same direction as James Tabor, but I would rather my Rabbi teacher explain why. I am a member of the Tikkun Community of Rabbi Lerner, an interfaith movement. www.tikun.org and currently reading his book, "HEALING ISRAEL/PALESTINE, A Path to Peace and Reconciliation" which is different from what Hanoch, James and Ross are saying ... so I am still wondering if I will be welcome in this dialogue because I really agree with Rabbi Lerner. I wish we could get them to dialogue with each other for us all to hear and maybe then we could really all come together to learn and work for God's mission ... a dream worth working for. Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hi Bonnie, I have never been in your area. But I hear it is beautiful. My email address is dennyj at mac.com. That website is not associated with my son any longer. Aaron Eby is the one responsible at this time. Aaron also writes for FFOZ http://www.ffoz.org . I think you would really like that site if you have never been there. Our son attends Beth Immanuel http://www.bethimmanuel.org where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches and leads. You surely have heard of Daniel and his works. We have had him and his family in our home a couple of times for Shabbat. Nice family. Good man. So, how did you get into this movement? Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hi Denny, I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the possibility of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He has a great respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, not as a God or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I like what your son is doing and thank you for that website. Is it OK to pass it on? How do you get your email address to be in the From: whereas mine is only my name. My email address is b.nelson@ alaska.com Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hi Bonnie, We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan cruise last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an the like. Beautiful country. Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. You are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored to some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know as I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing God is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike trust. He is my Abba. So again, where in Alaska are you? Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hi Denny, I really liked reading your email this morning and making me realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I am wondering where you live. I also related to what you said about deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me even though I have never been Christian. I like being unburdened and adrift, it's like we are trying to create our maps, but doing it collaboratively is way more rewarding than alone. Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: Good morning all, Shabbat Shalom! I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. Can you imagine the noise? Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking about and questioning him about where he is at now in his journey. Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to go at this time. He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed into somewhat of a different character. Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience and now consider themselves more Noahide in their understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. We didn't really understand what happened, but after my conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. He started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers he went deep into textual criticism and was at a place much like what you all have been sharing with me. But he told me that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper into the same issues with the O.T. he ran into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go any further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to believe in or teach my children". He knows enough now to completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted to. He doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God of our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He basically told me that i really don't want to go down this road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and basically get really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My fear is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know truth if what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period of my life as a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling time. One thing that stand out to me know is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and what I love about what I see in this group is the obvious love, kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see here. You all are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to identify with you in any way because others might think that i believe as you do and that would not be good. I proudly identify with you because you are all good and humble people who really do know how to live a life of love. Thank you for your example. Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all the noise around here. Blessings of Sabbath to you all. Denny _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/88b2aa02/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Dec 1 19:07:59 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 01:07:59 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A Sincere Apology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74340814-1196558697-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1079853544-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I can't wait! I went with my son to see the Cranberries several years ago, it was great. I'm going to see Flyleaf in a couple of weeks. Rock on!!! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:33:29 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Sincere Apology You Rock John!!!?? And speaking of Rock - remind me one day to tell you about taking my daughters (2 years ago) to hear Jethro Tull in Carnegie Hall.? ? Man, if I only had some talent (singing, playing an instrument...) I could have been a rock star!!? LOL ? ??????????? Hanoch ---------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007._______________________________________________ From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 19:28:11 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 17:28:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga, Part IV..trying to be brief In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <754196.12752.qm@web57105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Good Evening Hanoch, Another wonderful installment...............it is hard to believe that this is your life. It truly does sound like the stuff that novels are made of. Can't wait for the next post!! Shalom, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shalom...we're now back in the spring of ''76, and I've begun giving talks to Jewish youth groups about my experiences in the Soviet Union, at Shabbatonim (weekends including an intensive and spiritual Shabbat experience). It was kind of the "Activist Freak Show" - and I was the entertainment! However, this now exposed me more and more to Jewish guys and girls who were born 'Orthodox,' came from fully "Orthodox" families and attended Yeshivot - Jewish Day Schools. It showed me how far I had to go in my Jewish education, and spurred me on, reading and experiencing more and more. They didn't know Jewish history like I did, but they knew the tefilot (prayers), and many aspects of Jewish life that I hadn't 'gotten into' yet. It pushed me to pick up the pace of my Jewish learning, while it pulled me further away from my 'secular nationalist' friends in Betar. Kind of tough to talk with them about doing something illegal to help Jews, and having them then go and eat a bacon cheese burger....so, I gravitated more and more towards Rav Kahane, and the Jewish Defense League. So, on the one hand, I had these Betar pals who were totally dedicated to Israel and Jews, and wanted to live in Israel, but couldn't tell the difference between a Mitzva (Commandment from the Torah) and McDonald's (or Micheal Jackson, for that matter!). On the other hand, I had new pals who were fully "religious" (don't even get me started on what that word means, or doesn't) who learned Torah for a year in Israel (post High School - more on those programs later, when I get to my daughters), and visited there - but generally didn't want to live there, and didn't feel the need (in my case, "OBSESSION") to demonstrate and big 'activist' on behalf of Israel, or oppressed Jews. They certainly wouldn't do those '.. crazy, militant stuff' like I did....I seemed caught between two worlds...and I wasn't even 20 yet! At that same time, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon (or some spelling like that) rented out Yankee Stadium for a major rally, and Christian missionaries were out in force in NYC that Summer of the Bicentennial (1976). It seemed to be 'open season' on Jewish souls, and it was a time when my 'Jewishness' seemed to spring out of me....and I learned and absorbed every aspect of Judaism, and prepared to meet the greatest Jewish leader of our time, Rav (Rabbi) Meir Kahane. But before the summer there were a series of arrests of friends of mine on various charges of bombings and the shooting of the Soviet Residence, as well as others. The group was referred to as, the "Jewish Armed Resistance." All of us 'activists' were suspects, all of us were under suspicion... It seemed surreal to step out of the JDL office, and have police photographers take your picture, and follow you around. My phone at home seemed to have slight 'clicks' in the background, leading me to conclude that my phone was 'bugged' (yes, tapped). What I'm about to write, only about 6 people in the world know...and now you will too: I actually was there when a shipment of 'black powder' - gunpowder, arrived from Philadelphia (it took up half of the car trunk), along with a guy by the name of Lloyd Dumont. My friend Steve said that Lloyd came highly recommended by Philly's JDL leadership and could be trusted. To this day, I'll never know what spooked me, but I immediately said, in front of Dumont, "Steve, this guy is a cop!" He seemed squeamish, and denied it, unconvincingly (not like Serpico would have done!), and Steve said, "Relax, he's vouched for, we can trust him.." He also added that this 'shipment' would provide enough explosives for us to "blow the s--t out of the Russians.." I said that my gut was telling me different, and I walked away....He called after me, telling me I was a wimp, and a little "scardy cat.." he also called me that word that starts with a 'p' which is a synonym for a little cat, but no need to write EVERY word that will make Ross nuts, right? Bottom line? The JDL guys in Philly had turned informer for the FBI, Lloyd Dumont WAS a cop....and Steve R wound up in prison for several years, for that and other 'actions.' And I just wound up being mentioned in the 40 page indictment as one of five, "unnamed coconspirators." It seemed the 'cases' they had against us five would have weakened what they had against the other three guys they put away (Steve R, Russ and Steve E, who I barely knew, but figures in another weird anecdote of mine a bit later). But, let's get back to Rav Kahane: Rav Kahane was to us, the ideal Jew. The King David type - who could write psalms to the L-rd during the night, and then lead the troops into battle the next day. His insights into what it really meant to be a Jew made SUCH sense to me (many of his writings are on the internet - please check them out, or write to me to suggest some sites). We even thought that he might turn out to be the Messiah.....(we were young and delusional, what can I say?) His was a brand of OLD time, Tanach-type Judaism - where we were expected to be Jewish knowledgeable, religiously observant (whatever THAT means....everyone defines it somewhat differently), and beat anti-Semites into the ground! For example, he always liked to point to the part of Shemot (Exodus), where Moshe sees the Egyptian taskmaster beating the Jew. The Rav would ask incredulously - "Did Moshe form a committee to study the root causes of Egyptian anti-Semitism? NO!!!! He saw a Jew being beaten, and he smote the Egyptian!!" He believed in "the Jewish head, connected to the Jewish fist." Plain and simple, we were to be like the 20th Century Macabees.... JDL gained fame with pictures in the paper of tough Jewish guys with pipes and bats, preparing to protect a shul, with the tag line under the photo, "Is this any way for a nice Jewish boy to behave?" They organized patrols, protected Jewish cemeteries (which were often vandalized), and pushed the 'Jewish establishment' groups to get involved in the Soviet Jewry battle. A number of their guys went to prison (different then the guys I mentioned above), too - but that is a totally different story. But back to me... So, I was selected for this leadership training program and got to sit, learning from the Rav - 8 hours a day that summer. To hear his explanations of sections of the Torah, to learn his view of the message of the prophets, and to be able to apply this all to NOW, the real world. ASTOUNDINGLY, I don't have the notes from that summer, but wound up (someone handed it to me 8 years ago, for 'safekeeping') with audio tapes of those classes!! If someone knows how to digitize stuff - this would be the perfect project. Before the tapes disintegrate. We met some of Israel's COOLEST people that summer, from the "settlement movement" and the and participated in several, major events. We met Yoel Lerner, who was one of the first people involved in both the movement to restore the Holy Temple, as well as the Davidic Monarchy (I've always wondered if I've got royal blood in my veins..could you imagine? Hanoch, King of Judah! LOL what a riot THAT would be!!). We met courageous Jews who were setting up new towns (still called "settlements today..) in Kadum, Elon Moreh, and other places. And then there were the 'actions:' One, was a settlement attempt that Gush Emunim (those were the pioneers that built the towns and villages thought Yehuda (Judea) and Shomron (Samaria), the so-called, "West Bank") near Yericho (Jericho). We were dragged away by the Israeli police and troops, but what was crucial was the reason: Rav Kahane told us that we needed to establish more Jewish towns near Yericho, because one day, an Israeli government would otherwise be tempted to surrender it to the arabs. This was in 1976.....almost 25 years before the Oslo disaster, and he was warning about this THEN!!!!!!! And he was warning everyone about the arab population, and wrote the magnificent, "They Must Go" A little annecdote - while the police were pushing us down the hill (we were wearing heavy backpacks - BIG mistake), I actually tried an old football move on two soldiers and left them in the dust! They were pushing me from my right, I leaned into them, then spun left, bouncing off them, almost like an off tackle run!! John Madden would have been proud!! But they weren't fooled by that move a second time... But Rav Kahane knew things that no one else seemed to know....things we thought were amazing, tremendous insights on world events, ....We thought he might actually have the gift of prophecy, but no, he just was highly intelligent, and figured things out....tough things that no one else wanted to deal with, or consider (like the arab population growth and Israeli democracy) We also went to Hevron....the heart of Biblical Israel, but currently occupied by arabs...there was a Soviet oleh (immigrant) by the name of Professor BenTzion Tavger, and he was trying to restore a destroyed, former shul in the heart of the city. Okay, now a bit of a history lesson - The Jewish community of Hevron (who had been there since time immemorial) was composed of older, religious people, not "Zionist Pioneers." In 1929, their arab "neighbors" rioted and slaughtered them in horrifice ways, mutilating them....I just can't write all the details, they are too horrible (see Click here: The Hebron Massacre of 1929 for more information). They drove out all the Jews, and destroyed every shul and Jewish institution. Professor Tavger had figured out where the (previously) famous 'Beir Kenneset Avraham Avinu' (the shul named after our father Avraham). The arabs had turned it into a garbage dump and a sheep pen...allowing trash and feces to accumulate where Holy Torah scrolls had been read for generations. Professor Tavger went back, day after day, with the arabs throwing rocks at him, to clear the site, piece by piece...soon there were occasional volunteers helping, and the Israeli army sent two reservists to guard them. That's when Rav Kahane sent us to help the Professor....we cleared the garbage and debris, and the stones, and hoisted them up, and threw them down on the metal arab shanty shacks they had established on the site.....We made it clear to those arab squatters that this was a JEWISH site, and they were 'not welcome' (we actually used very colorful arab curses to make the point, but no need for those details, right?). You can see this beautiful shul, fully restored, and used DAILY, in Hevron, the next time you're in Israel. And I actually had the privilege of having had a very tiny part of that... coming up next - my first arrest in Israel, my first experience with an Uzi submachine gun and my shift to learning Torah first, activism, second....sorry this is taking SO long.. Shabbat Shalom to all, Hanoch --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/3779e2b7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 19:33:32 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 20:33:32 EST Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga, Part IV..trying to be brief Message-ID: Hey John - I LOVE it!!!!! Shoot me your phone number and I'll call over the next few days, okay? As I said, you ROCK!! Or as Keanu Reeves would say: Woooooooooo dude......... Shabbat was not bad, thanks, and I began tackling a brand new addition to my library: "In the Footsteps of the Ten Lost Tribes which is the English translation of a book published in Hebrew. As I get through it, I hope to be able to report back to the group on it. Hey - just about to send out my 'Saga - Part V' - let me know what you think, okay? Best regards from the Apple, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/6de613f6/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 19:38:06 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 20:38:06 EST Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga, Part IV..trying to be brief Message-ID: Hey Tammy - Thanks so much, I'm just about to send out the next segment (#5, I guess). Those WERE the days, for me, anyway....I have not been able to capture that kind of feeling again, although I have desperately tried. Life has been far less successful (or interesting!) since then, although my daughters seem to have chosen a similar path to mine. What's funny is to look at the photos from those events....wow.....yeah, I can't believe some of these things happened. And no, I am NOT writing about everything...some things are too touchy....I just wish I was as interesting NOW, as I was THEN!! LOL Shalom from NYC, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/fc519761/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Sat Dec 1 19:45:44 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:45:44 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Message-ID: Hey Betty, I hope you are feeling better. It is a blessing to be on the same journey with you. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sat Dec 01 19:12:32 2007 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Dear friends, After having been away from my computer for at least 3 days due to illness in my family, I couldn't believe my eyes when my inbox showed 90+ messages! Just trying to read them over and digest what I could was quite a challenge, but what a rewarding challenge and blessing it was! No way to respond to all, but I just wanted to say how much each of you have blessed my life by what you have shared and written. Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you! The thing that kept hitting me over and over was that in spite of where we each are on the Path to G-d, that there is such an overwhelming love and respect for one another and also an undeniable unity; not unity in our beliefs, necessarily, for we are at different points, but definitely unity in our search for finding the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and in our love for Torah, the Land Israel and its People. Denny and Glen, I totally agree that that is definitely a place to drive in a stake. This stake is one that will stand the test of time. In fact, it continues to send chills thru me when I read of G-d's promise to Abraham long ago when he brought him out under the stars and told him that he would be the Father of many nations...that his children would be as the stars. Yes, we are "Abrahams" in a sense, or at least "Abraham's seed," for we have been called out, and have heard and heeded the call to put away our idols and serve the one true G-d! Thru everything, that has been the one constant thing, the stable thing in my life, when so much else was crumbling about me...when I was so confused and scared that I couldn't sleep...had constant headaches...just trying to figure it all out. I can so fully identify with so much of this dialogue. It has hit such a personal chord. I really have to watch myself, as I have a tendency to get overly emotional and a bit too excited and go on and on and on, because I do so want to fix everything for everyone that I care about. So I will try to keep this brief. Let me just say that there was a time when Roger and I were going to church on Sunday morning and Sunday night, Joe Good's Bible study on Monday night, church on Wednesday night, Hatikvah congregation on Friday to welcome Shabbat and then back, usually all day Saturday, until evening and Havdalah service (end of Sabbsath, and then back to and church again on Sunday...so that was 5 out of 7 nights a week where we were going from one thing to the next...we were definitely seeking, but also very confused. I think that is when the insomnia and the headaches began... We finally made a decision, and it was a joint decision that the church was a thing of the past. We, like many of you, felt that we had been lied to, betrayed. We lost a lot of friends, and there was so much pain and disillusionment. That decision was not nearly as hard as the ones to come...like the first really BIG issue...the Deity of Yeshua for starters. I remember calling my brother in tears, absolutely beside myself. He listened very patiently, gave me some things to think about, but basically told me that I had to find my own answers; he said go into my closet and pray to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I did that and in time, gained a measure of peace with where it brought me. As I have said before I will always love Yeshua for a number of reasons, but mainly because he brought me to the Father...his Father and the Father of us all. To sum it up in one sentence, and that is hard, is that I have finally come to the point that I don't have to have all the answers, but that doesn't mean that I will ever stop searching...my heart is still open and hope it always will be. Jer:29:31 And you shall seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart Hope everyone has a good week...Shavuah tov, Betty/Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: > Denny, > > I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I > hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to > you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your > behalf. > > As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate > as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from > Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols > of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... > > I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, > and they are found in both the OT and NT. > > Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) > search for Me with all your heart. > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/e5bddea6/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 19:51:52 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 20:51:52 EST Subject: [Dialogue] My saga - Part V (couldn't keep this one short) Message-ID: Listening to Rav Kahane teach from the Tanach (Hebrew bible) was an amazing experience. When he read from the prophets (as he often did..), you got the sen se that he WAS Jeremiah or Isaiah - warning the people to wake up, or suffer the consequences. It mirrored his own life, being the "lone voice in the wilderness" - trying to get the Jews of Israel (or New York!) to see what's going on, to do something about it. I'm certain that that's where my attachment to studying the Neviim (prophets) came from. And in fact, it was the focus of the UIWU (United Israel World Union) ON the messages Hebrew prophets that first attracted me to this group. Our love of the prophets was what connected us...but we're jumping almost 20 years ahead, and much more to tell about now... Rav Kahane would teach us to truly LOVE HaShem, G-d (as he would put it, ".. Simply saying you Love HaShem, and not acting like you do, is like when you say you LOVE chocolate cake!"), and he filled me with the desire to delve deeper into the source material he was teaching from - primarily the Tanach (which he felt had the precedents to teach us how to behave as a nation), and then later on, the Talmud. He sent us to tour the Land with Aaron Pik, a renowned Israeli tour guide, known as 'Israel's Daniel Boone.' Lean, lanky, and with skin tanned dark brown like leather, Pik seemed to know every blade of grass in Israel - and who had walked there before we did. He pointed out where Jewish fighters ambushed the Roman soldiers during the Bar Kohba rebellion, and where various events of the Tanach occurred (including the cave where David hid from King Saul in Ein Gedi! Pik carried an Uzi with him, not that he had used it while touring, but just to 'convince those arabs who wanted to start something, not to.' These were the days before Oslo, before the "intifada," when Jews were still relatively safe touring their own land. But back to the story - Pik led us down through rocks and brambles into a wadi - cool running water, surrounded by tall rocks, on either side. We (the 8 of us and Pik) where on one side, and there seemed to be no one on the other side. We walked for a bit, and decided to stop, and relax a bit and rest. Almost diagonally across from us was an arab family picnicking - no big deal (or so we thought...). Pik had given me the gun, while he waded into the water, something none of us did, but he was 'Daniel Boone,' after all...right? Without getting too gross, I had a need to find a secluded spot, since 'nature was calling.' I walked ahead a bit, around the bend, and behind some rocks. (about a minute, or two, walk from my group). While I was there, the arab kids (from the family picnic) had evidently gone to get arab youth (late teens, early 20's - who knew?). And they began gathering rocks (there seemed to be very few rocks on our side of the wadi..), and evidently where going to stone my group. Just then, I come sauntering around the bend I had heard 'some' noise), now picture this - me, with three weeks of stubble (Hanoch was growing a beard, as all religious men seemed to have), faded jean shorts, light blue workshirt, paratroop boots, military cap and dark sunglasses...and an Uzi, cocked ('locked and loaded'). I held the Uzi in my right hand, finger on the trigger (which I later learned I shouldn't have done, unless committed to firing - which I probably was - LOL), with the wooden stock (remember those old Uzi's?) pressed against my ribs. Man, I looked like a cross between 'Dirty Harry' (Clint Eastwood at his BEST) and Che Guevera. I actually have a picture from that day! The expression on my face (as my pals later related to me) was clearly one of those, "go ahead punk, MAKE MY DAY...." Pik was yelling something to me, but frankly, I could only hear the blood pumping my in my chest (couldn't really 'hear' it, but it seemed that my heart and blood were pounding in my brain. I realized Pik was saying something - but till this day, I have no idea what he was saying; hell, I have no idea if he was speaking in English or Hebrew!! All I knew was as soon as that first rock was thrown, I was going to gun down as many of those dirt bags as I could..... It seemed the arabs picked up on the attitude of the "Bronx Psycho' (what our group called me for a while after that..), and put down the rocks (VERY slowly, as I recall) and immediately left. Pik grabbed the Uzi from me, and was clearly not pleased with young John Rambo (ha, ha - that movie wasn't out for many years yet...). Sighhhhh....I only got to handle a weapon in Israel (so far!), one other time, which was years later in 1982, walking back on Shabbat morning from the Ma'arat HaMachpela (tomb of the patriarchs) in Hevron. We were going back to Kiryat Arba, which overlooks Hevron, with my friend Baruch. He handed me his AK-47 (yes, my very own Kalashnikov!!!!), and said that since he had been arrested SO many times, if there was "trouble" - it would be much better for him, if it was ME that did the shooting (in self-defense, of course). It was an amazing feeling to carry that, my palms were sweating like crazy, as I kept rehearsing how I would fire the weapon. Fortunately, I didn't have to, but wow, could I have used something like THAT on the subway, while growing up.....But we're jumping ahead of our story.....But remember, at this point, with Rav Kahane, I'm feeling fervently 'religious' like a "zealot" of old, just like Modern Macabees.... Okay, we get back from the hike (darn it - Pik KEPT his Uzi!!), and we were all sweaty and grimy. Since I was the 'group leader' and had been prepared to keep guard over everyone ("Dirty Hanoch," instead of 'Dirty Harry'), they all agreed I could go into the shower first. Now, if you've ever been to Israel, you know what a big deal this really is! Israel has little water power, and the hot water, heated by the solar heater, would run out after the first few showers. I disrobe (no peaking guys!), and step into the shower/tub. There is a large window that opens in, right in the middle of the shower, over the tub! I pushed it closed with my left hand, but it then opened again. A bit annoyed, I pushed it again, and two seconds later, it popped open. Grrrrrrrr.....now this window is in the middle of the shower, I'm dirty, tired, and the adrenaline of almost killing a dozen arabs has long since worn off. So I REALLY gave this window a shove.....with my left arm going through the middle of the shattering glass... I was bleeding a LOT from my elbow, but was otherwise unharmed (I WAS naked, remember?). Putting on my jean shorts, I stepped out of the bathroom and had my pals get some kitchen towels and apply pressure to it. But I was bleeding like a stuck pig (albeit, a kosher one...). One of the guys called Rav Kahane, and he said - "...take Hanoch to Magen David Adom ('Red Star of David' - Israel's version of the Red Cross)!! Maybe they thought he could 'heal' me over the phone! LOL One of the guys, Jordan, began to speculate out loud, wondering if my blood had made those towels un-kosher....My blood is pumping out of me, and THAT was not what I wanted to hear... My friend Ira draped a jacket over my shoulders (he didn't want our very religious neighbors to be turned on by my bare chest, after all..), and we went out into the street, where a taxi pulled up immediately saw all the blood, and asked in Hebrew (Which I had finally begun to speak a bit), if we wanted to go to Magen David Adom....no, genius, I wanted to go to the opera!! Sighhhhhhh We got to Magen David Adom, and rushed in....since these were men and women who deal with the tragic aftermath of terrorist attacks, they were less then impressed with MY wound, blood dripping on the floor, or not. They cleaned it, stitched it (seemingly easily, even though it was around the elbow), and wrapped it - cautioning me to keep it dry, and that I MUST have the stitches taken out within a week (this point follows into the next part..). Although it was my faulty Hebrew which understood, "MUST have them taken out on that day." Pik was taking the group on an overnight trip three days later, which I couldn't go on ("..couldn't get the bandage dirty..."). I thought I would be alone, with nothing to do, but the Rav had other plans....we would be going back to Hevron, to help save another Jewish owned building. There is a building called, Beit Hadassah, which had served the small Jewish community until they were chased from Hevron in the pogrom of 1929. The man with the actual deed for the building tried to reclaim it (it was empty), but the Israeli government wouldn't allow it - didn't want to stir up the arabs.... A group of 20 guys from Gush Emunim had staged a sit-in at Beit Hadassah, but were jailed for two weeks. But Rav Kahane thought that we, as Americans could get away with more....so I rented buses, and began recruiting people to join us in a peaceful demonstration. I just kept reminding them to bring their passports...although they didn't quite 'get' why they needed them......(wink, wink) The day of the event, we took over the whole building, climbing on the roof, and chanting slogans (Hebrew and English) and singing songs. We had got a ton of press (there was a Page 3 story in the New York Times the next day...), and were of course, all arrested (hence, the need for the passports! LOL). They had all the guys loaded unto an Army truck (they let the girls go....), and placed Rav Kahane in a separate car, for "his comfort." It wasn't long before we saw that the police were taking him somewhere else then we were going....now that stunk! We figured that with the Rav with us we could learn Torah, and it would be a great event. But instead, we were driven to a jail in Petah Tikva..... Now, you have to realize that Israel is a modern, generally Westernized country. EXCEPT it's jails - which are clearly Middle Eastern....Think of the movie, "Midnight Express...." It was a stone structure, with a fairly small area to accommodate their 'guests.' There were metal bunk beds, with STRAW mattresses, which were covered by a thin sheet....we began to realize that this wasn't so 'cool' after all. Our belts and shoelaces were taken away...We did get to walk (twice a day!) in the small, enclosed yard, ringed with barbed wire. Meals were a slush of a small piece of chicken and what looked like a potato, in some kind of tomato-like sauce. Which of course, we had to eat with a spoon - no forks or knives! Now remember, this was just a holding jail - NOT a prison. We had yet to appear before a judge, or talk to a lawyer. We asked to speak to someone from the American Embassy, but they just laughed at us. There was a 'shower area' but the floor was SO slimy, with unidentifiable substances, that I couldn't go near it! There were a few Israeli guys who had been there for days. One, had scars from cut marks up and down his arm, which he had done with a broken bottle, just because he was bored one day. And he kept singing the only English he knew - "That's the way, uh huh, uh huh, I like it..." over, and over again.... The cops told us that if we signed a confession (I told you it was Middle Eastern!) in Hebrew, which they wouldn't translate for us, we would be released that night! We were all excited, we were getting out, and didn't have to listen to that psycho sing any more, so we signed those 'confessions.' We didn't get out, and to this day, I have no idea what I signed....I may have confessed to killing President Kennedy, for all I know... By the next day, all our nerves were rubbed raw by the lowlife inmates who couldn't understand why we were in Israel and cared WHO was in Hevron. But then it dawned on me.....that was the day I had to have my stitches taken out!! Oh my G-d....what was I going to do now?? They told me I MUST have them taken out that day..... So, my friend who spoke better Hebrew then I, kept calling to the guards, explaining that I needed medical attention. Like an old prison movie ("Birdman of Alcatraz) we stood with our arms thorough the bars, calling to the guards. Finally, with a stroke of genius, he told them that I would develop gangrene if I did not have those stitches taken out.....then they decided they would take me to a medical facility. Although I had only been locked up for two days, I was thrilled I was 'getting out' - even briefly. So, off I went, in a police car, with two, huge Israeli cops. We pull up in front of the medical clinic, and they park the car...and we sit....and I couldn't understand why. I soon found out....these teenage girls came swarming over to talk to the big, hunky policemen!! Kind of like a guy from the NYFD (New York Firefighters), these cops, evidently picked up girls ALL the time!!!! But I didn't complain, this was my 'freedom.' Then we got out of the car, and walked into the clinic, which was when they began acting all official-like. Picture this scene - it's a crowded waiting room...lots of mothers and children and older folks (this was the middle of the afternoon), and in the three of us walk. Me, with several weeks of beard growth, unkempt, dirty, and with one arm wrapped up, and the other holding up my jeans! Remember - they had taken away my belt, and I had already lost about 15 lbs since getting to Israel. On either side of me, a HUGE cop, pistol holstered, but each carrying an Uzi submachine gun.....pointed upward, but with the magazine in.....like they were with John DIllinger, or something....parents began pulling their children close to them, away from me.... They took me to a very nice doctor who had a Russian accent, and who looked like Doctor Gillespe on that old medical show - what was it called??? He stared at me, knew I was American, looked at my kipa (yarmulke) and then in typical Israeli fashion, said: "What's a nice Jewish boy like you doing in such trouble??" I began to explain that I was part of a group that demonstrated in Hevron with Rav Kahane...but the moment I mentioned the Rav's name, he LEAPED across the table to congratulate me for what we did!! He called over his nursing team (who were like the nursing version of the 'Swedish Bikini Team') and told them to gently take out my stitches... I was fine, we all (including Rav Kahane) went to court the next day, and the charges were dropped. A Postscript: There were further attempts to return Beit Hadassah to Jewish hands, and a number of people got arrested, over and over again, until the government relented. Today, you can visit the Beit Hadassah building in Hevron....it's part of the Jewish community, once again. **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/d0edda9e/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Sat Dec 1 19:53:45 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:53:45 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga, Part IV..trying to be brief Message-ID: Here ya go man; Cell - 225-721-2628 Home - 225-635-6894 Cell coverage I kinda spotty here and I'm not home much these days so if I don't answer just leave a voice mail and I'll call ya right back. Anxiously awaiting chapter 5. Air guitar! "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sat Dec 01 19:33:32 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Saga, Part IV..trying to be brief Hey John - I LOVE it!!!!! Shoot me your phone number and I'll call over the next few days, okay? As I said, you ROCK!! Or as Keanu Reeves would say: Woooooooooo dude......... Shabbat was not bad, thanks, and I began tackling a brand new addition to my library: "In the Footsteps of the Ten Lost Tribes which is the English translation of a book published in Hebrew. As I get through it, I hope to be able to report back to the group on it. Hey - just about to send out my 'Saga - Part V' - let me know what you think, okay? Best regards from the Apple, Hanoch ________________________________ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/cf6d8fb8/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Dec 1 20:40:15 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 20:40:15 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003501c8348c$abfb0640$653c66c9@bettygivin> Bonnie, I am a little late in greeting you, but wanted to take this opportunity to welcome you to the dialogue. My daughter, BTW, is Kim; and Pat, who has written to you as well, has been a very close friend of mine for many years. Many of the other people, I am just getting to know. I have enjoyed your posts and may I ditto what John wrote below regarding there being no belief checklist or charter. If we all had to ascribe to the same set of beliefs, I don't think we would have much of a dialogue group. So many of us come from different backgrounds as you can see and we are all journeying ahead and finding ourselves in different places than the ones from whence we started, which in itself, is exciting. I personally am not found of labels, but for want of a better way to describe where some of us are, let me say that some are Christians, some are Jews (some born Jews and some converts, some Messianic), some would consider themselves B'nai Noach, others simply Children of Abraham, others are somewhere in between. Being in all these different places gives us opportunity to reach out on so many different levels. My brother, James, for example, since the publication of his book, has found that he has gotten the attention of many Catholics, humanists and secularists. So basically, please feel free to dialogue with us for as long as you feel comfortable. This group is one of the most accepting group of people I have ever met.bottom line, there is a level of caring, respect and search for G-d that seems to surpass individual opinions. Interchange between some of the more" learned ones" might prove to be quite interesting. In the meantime, do please "jump in" whenever something strikes you. BTW, I love snow (but usually only from my picture window). For several years, we worked in Minnesota, sometimes thru the end of December.the snow is beautiful, but I am afraid that my blood is far too thin (I am from Texas) to enjoy much of it. Those days when we would get up to a thermostat reading of -9 degrees was a little much for me! Take care and stay warm. May HaShem bless you in your search, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CARLSON, JOHN S Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:25 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow Hey Bonnie, Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to recruit for a movement in any way. My interest in a photo was for nothing more than what I stated, if you would rather not then that's okay. The dialogue (nor ROF for that matter) has no hidden agenda's. There is no belief checklist or charter. It is solely for the pupose of exchanging ideas and all are welcome with no expectations other than respecting each other. Doctor Tabor is simply another participant in this forum albiet a learned and well respected one as well as a good friend. I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. I do like your discussion idea though. I would love to hear the interchange between Rabbi Lerner, Doctor Tabor and Ross. We would all be certain to learn something. Please continue to jump in here. Shalom. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sat Dec 01 17:44:32 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow Denny and John C, I think it is still too soon to say I am in this movement. I am actually still considering converting to Jewish, not Messianic Jewish, however, my Christian teacher says that I am moving in the right direction, after all Jesus was a Jew. I am still overwhelmed trying to figure out how "big tent" this movement is; there is so much to read, and it seems many different perspectives; yet everyone is respectful of everyone and I find that wonderful. If searching together for the truth by sharing w/o a requirement that everyone come to the same truth conclusions is the movement, then yes, I am in. However, if everyone has to be of the same belief for what needs to happen in the state of Israel today, then ... I am not moving in the same direction as James Tabor, but I would rather my Rabbi teacher explain why. I am a member of the Tikkun Community of Rabbi Lerner, an interfaith movement. www.tikun.org and currently reading his book, "HEALING ISRAEL/PALESTINE, A Path to Peace and Reconciliation" which is different from what Hanoch, James and Ross are saying ... so I am still wondering if I will be welcome in this dialogue because I really agree with Rabbi Lerner. I wish we could get them to dialogue with each other for us all to hear and maybe then we could really all come together to learn and work for God's mission ... a dream worth working for. Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hi Bonnie, I have never been in your area. But I hear it is beautiful. My email address is dennyj at mac.com. That website is not associated with my son any longer. Aaron Eby is the one responsible at this time. Aaron also writes for FFOZ http://www.ffoz.org . I think you would really like that site if you have never been there. Our son attends Beth Immanuel http://www.bethimmanuel.org where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches and leads. You surely have heard of Daniel and his works. We have had him and his family in our home a couple of times for Shabbat. Nice family. Good man. So, how did you get into this movement? Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hi Denny, I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the possibility of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He has a great respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, not as a God or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I like what your son is doing and thank you for that website. Is it OK to pass it on? How do you get your email address to be in the From: whereas mine is only my name. My email address is b.nelson@ alaska.com Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hi Bonnie, We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan cruise last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an the like. Beautiful country. Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. You are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored to some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know as I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing God is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike trust. He is my Abba. So again, where in Alaska are you? Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hi Denny, I really liked reading your email this morning and making me realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I am wondering where you live. I also related to what you said about deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me even though I have never been Christian. I like being unburdened and adrift, it's like we are trying to create our maps, but doing it collaboratively is way more rewarding than alone. Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: Good morning all, Shabbat Shalom! I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. Can you imagine the noise? Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking about and questioning him about where he is at now in his journey. Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to go at this time. He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed into somewhat of a different character. Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience and now consider themselves more Noahide in their understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. We didn't really understand what happened, but after my conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. He started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers he went deep into textual criticism and was at a place much like what you all have been sharing with me. But he told me that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper into the same issues with the O.T. he ran into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go any further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to believe in or teach my children". He knows enough now to completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted to. He doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God of our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He basically told me that i really don't want to go down this road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and basically get really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My fear is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know truth if what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period of my life as a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling time. One thing that stand out to me know is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and what I love about what I see in this group is the obvious love, kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see here. You all are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to identify with you in any way because others might think that i believe as you do and that would not be good. I proudly identify with you because you are all good and humble people who really do know how to live a life of love. Thank you for your example. Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all the noise around here. Blessings of Sabbath to you all. Denny _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/307678fd/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Dec 1 20:50:06 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 20:50:06 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My saga - Part V (couldn't keep this one short) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004001c8348e$0c151dd0$653c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, I think it is wonderful that you are able to recount your "Saga" for us. It is definitely novel material in my opinion, but please do me a favor.stop apologizing for the length! You've got our attention.just continue to go for it! BTW, in 1990, Roger and I along with James, Dennis and Kathy, Ralph and Becky, LaTrenda and Steve, and maybe others I can't remember, attended what I think may have been the first B'Nei Noach Conference recognized by the rabbis in Israel; it was 1990, and Rav Kahane spoke and Shlomo Carlbach sang (may their memories be blessed!). It was truly a memorial experience! Shavuah tov, brother Judah, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:52 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] My saga - Part V (couldn't keep this one short) Listening to Rav Kahane teach from the Tanach (Hebrew bible) was an amazing experience. When he read from the prophets (as he often did..), you got the sense that he WAS Jeremiah or Isaiah - warning the people to wake up, or suffer the consequences. It mirrored his own life, being the "lone voice in the wilderness" - trying to get the Jews of Israel (or New York!) to see what's going on, to do something about it. I'm certain that that's where my attachment to studying the Neviim (prophets) came from. And in fact, it was the focus of the UIWU (United Israel World Union) ON the messages Hebrew prophets that first attracted me to this group. Our love of the prophets was what connected us...but we're jumping almost 20 years ahead, and much more to tell about now... Rav Kahane would teach us to truly LOVE HaShem, G-d (as he would put it, ".. Simply saying you Love HaShem, and not acting like you do, is like when you say you LOVE chocolate cake!"), and he filled me with the desire to delve deeper into the source material he was teaching from - primarily the Tanach (which he felt had the precedents to teach us how to behave as a nation), and then later on, the Talmud. He sent us to tour the Land with Aaron Pik, a renowned Israeli tour guide, known as 'Israel's Daniel Boone.' Lean, lanky, and with skin tanned dark brown like leather, Pik seemed to know every blade of grass in Israel - and who had walked there before we did. He pointed out where Jewish fighters ambushed the Roman soldiers during the Bar Kohba rebellion, and where various events of the Tanach occurred (including the cave where David hid from King Saul in Ein Gedi! Pik carried an Uzi with him, not that he had used it while touring, but just to 'convince those arabs who wanted to start something, not to.' These were the days before Oslo, before the "intifada," when Jews were still relatively safe touring their own land. But back to the story - Pik led us down through rocks and brambles into a wadi - cool running water, surrounded by tall rocks, on either side. We (the 8 of us and Pik) where on one side, and there seemed to be no one on the other side. We walked for a bit, and decided to stop, and relax a bit and rest. Almost diagonally across from us was an arab family picnicking - no big deal (or so we thought...). Pik had given me the gun, while he waded into the water, something none of us did, but he was 'Daniel Boone,' after all...right? Without getting too gross, I had a need to find a secluded spot, since 'nature was calling.' I walked ahead a bit, around the bend, and behind some rocks. (about a minute, or two, walk from my group). While I was there, the arab kids (from the family picnic) had evidently gone to get arab youth (late teens, early 20's - who knew?). And they began gathering rocks (there seemed to be very few rocks on our side of the wadi..), and evidently where going to stone my group. Just then, I come sauntering around the bend I had heard 'some' noise), now picture this - me, with three weeks of stubble (Hanoch was growing a beard, as all religious men seemed to have), faded jean shorts, light blue workshirt, paratroop boots, military cap and dark sunglasses...and an Uzi, cocked ('locked and loaded'). I held the Uzi in my right hand, finger on the trigger (which I later learned I shouldn't have done, unless committed to firing - which I probably was - LOL), with the wooden stock (remember those old Uzi's?) pressed against my ribs. Man, I looked like a cross between 'Dirty Harry' (Clint Eastwood at his BEST) and Che Guevera. I actually have a picture from that day! The expression on my face (as my pals later related to me) was clearly one of those, "go ahead punk, MAKE MY DAY...." Pik was yelling something to me, but frankly, I could only hear the blood pumping my in my chest (couldn't really 'hear' it, but it seemed that my heart and blood were pounding in my brain. I realized Pik was saying something - but till this day, I have no idea what he was saying; hell, I have no idea if he was speaking in English or Hebrew!! All I knew was as soon as that first rock was thrown, I was going to gun down as many of those dirt bags as I could..... It seemed the arabs picked up on the attitude of the "Bronx Psycho' (what our group called me for a while after that..), and put down the rocks (VERY slowly, as I recall) and immediately left. Pik grabbed the Uzi from me, and was clearly not pleased with young John Rambo (ha, ha - that movie wasn't out for many years yet...). Sighhhhh....I only got to handle a weapon in Israel (so far!), one other time, which was years later in 1982, walking back on Shabbat morning from the Ma'arat HaMachpela (tomb of the patriarchs) in Hevron. We were going back to Kiryat Arba, which overlooks Hevron, with my friend Baruch. He handed me his AK-47 (yes, my very own Kalashnikov!!!!), and said that since he had been arrested SO many times, if there was "trouble" - it would be much better for him, if it was ME that did the shooting (in self-defense, of course). It was an amazing feeling to carry that, my palms were sweating like crazy, as I kept rehearsing how I would fire the weapon. Fortunately, I didn't have to, but wow, could I have used something like THAT on the subway, while growing up.....But we're jumping ahead of our story.....But remember, at this point, with Rav Kahane, I'm feeling fervently 'religious' like a "zealot" of old, just like Modern Macabees.... Okay, we get back from the hike (darn it - Pik KEPT his Uzi!!), and we were all sweaty and grimy. Since I was the 'group leader' and had been prepared to keep guard over everyone ("Dirty Hanoch," instead of 'Dirty Harry'), they all agreed I could go into the shower first. Now, if you've ever been to Israel, you know what a big deal this really is! Israel has little water power, and the hot water, heated by the solar heater, would run out after the first few showers. I disrobe (no peaking guys!), and step into the shower/tub. There is a large window that opens in, right in the middle of the shower, over the tub! I pushed it closed with my left hand, but it then opened again. A bit annoyed, I pushed it again, and two seconds later, it popped open. Grrrrrrrr.....now this window is in the middle of the shower, I'm dirty, tired, and the adrenaline of almost killing a dozen arabs has long since worn off. So I REALLY gave this window a shove.....with my left arm going through the middle of the shattering glass... I was bleeding a LOT from my elbow, but was otherwise unharmed (I WAS naked, remember?). Putting on my jean shorts, I stepped out of the bathroom and had my pals get some kitchen towels and apply pressure to it. But I was bleeding like a stuck pig (albeit, a kosher one...). One of the guys called Rav Kahane, and he said - "...take Hanoch to Magen David Adom ('Red Star of David' - Israel's version of the Red Cross)!! Maybe they thought he could 'heal' me over the phone! LOL One of the guys, Jordan, began to speculate out loud, wondering if my blood had made those towels un-kosher....My blood is pumping out of me, and THAT was not what I wanted to hear... My friend Ira draped a jacket over my shoulders (he didn't want our very religious neighbors to be turned on by my bare chest, after all..), and we went out into the street, where a taxi pulled up immediately saw all the blood, and asked in Hebrew (Which I had finally begun to speak a bit), if we wanted to go to Magen David Adom....no, genius, I wanted to go to the opera!! Sighhhhhhh We got to Magen David Adom, and rushed in....since these were men and women who deal with the tragic aftermath of terrorist attacks, they were less then impressed with MY wound, blood dripping on the floor, or not. They cleaned it, stitched it (seemingly easily, even though it was around the elbow), and wrapped it - cautioning me to keep it dry, and that I MUST have the stitches taken out within a week (this point follows into the next part..). Although it was my faulty Hebrew which understood, "MUST have them taken out on that day." Pik was taking the group on an overnight trip three days later, which I couldn't go on ("..couldn't get the bandage dirty..."). I thought I would be alone, with nothing to do, but the Rav had other plans....we would be going back to Hevron, to help save another Jewish owned building. There is a building called, Beit Hadassah, which had served the small Jewish community until they were chased from Hevron in the pogrom of 1929. The man with the actual deed for the building tried to reclaim it (it was empty), but the Israeli government wouldn't allow it - didn't want to stir up the arabs.... A group of 20 guys from Gush Emunim had staged a sit-in at Beit Hadassah, but were jailed for two weeks. But Rav Kahane thought that we, as Americans could get away with more....so I rented buses, and began recruiting people to join us in a peaceful demonstration. I just kept reminding them to bring their passports...although they didn't quite 'get' why they needed them......(wink, wink) The day of the event, we took over the whole building, climbing on the roof, and chanting slogans (Hebrew and English) and singing songs. We had got a ton of press (there was a Page 3 story in the New York Times the next day...), and were of course, all arrested (hence, the need for the passports! LOL). They had all the guys loaded unto an Army truck (they let the girls go....), and placed Rav Kahane in a separate car, for "his comfort." It wasn't long before we saw that the police were taking him somewhere else then we were going....now that stunk! We figured that with the Rav with us we could learn Torah, and it would be a great event. But instead, we were driven to a jail in Petah Tikva..... Now, you have to realize that Israel is a modern, generally Westernized country. EXCEPT it's jails - which are clearly Middle Eastern....Think of the movie, "Midnight Express...." It was a stone structure, with a fairly small area to accommodate their 'guests.' There were metal bunk beds, with STRAW mattresses, which were covered by a thin sheet....we began to realize that this wasn't so 'cool' after all. Our belts and shoelaces were taken away...We did get to walk (twice a day!) in the small, enclosed yard, ringed with barbed wire. Meals were a slush of a small piece of chicken and what looked like a potato, in some kind of tomato-like sauce. Which of course, we had to eat with a spoon - no forks or knives! Now remember, this was just a holding jail - NOT a prison. We had yet to appear before a judge, or talk to a lawyer. We asked to speak to someone from the American Embassy, but they just laughed at us. There was a 'shower area' but the floor was SO slimy, with unidentifiable substances, that I couldn't go near it! There were a few Israeli guys who had been there for days. One, had scars from cut marks up and down his arm, which he had done with a broken bottle, just because he was bored one day. And he kept singing the only English he knew - "That's the way, uh huh, uh huh, I like it..." over, and over again.... The cops told us that if we signed a confession (I told you it was Middle Eastern!) in Hebrew, which they wouldn't translate for us, we would be released that night! We were all excited, we were getting out, and didn't have to listen to that psycho sing any more, so we signed those 'confessions.' We didn't get out, and to this day, I have no idea what I signed....I may have confessed to killing President Kennedy, for all I know... By the next day, all our nerves were rubbed raw by the lowlife inmates who couldn't understand why we were in Israel and cared WHO was in Hevron. But then it dawned on me.....that was the day I had to have my stitches taken out!! Oh my G-d....what was I going to do now?? They told me I MUST have them taken out that day..... So, my friend who spoke better Hebrew then I, kept calling to the guards, explaining that I needed medical attention. Like an old prison movie ("Birdman of Alcatraz) we stood with our arms thorough the bars, calling to the guards. Finally, with a stroke of genius, he told them that I would develop gangrene if I did not have those stitches taken out.....then they decided they would take me to a medical facility. Although I had only been locked up for two days, I was thrilled I was 'getting out' - even briefly. So, off I went, in a police car, with two, huge Israeli cops. We pull up in front of the medical clinic, and they park the car...and we sit....and I couldn't understand why. I soon found out....these teenage girls came swarming over to talk to the big, hunky policemen!! Kind of like a guy from the NYFD (New York Firefighters), these cops, evidently picked up girls ALL the time!!!! But I didn't complain, this was my 'freedom.' Then we got out of the car, and walked into the clinic, which was when they began acting all official-like. Picture this scene - it's a crowded waiting room...lots of mothers and children and older folks (this was the middle of the afternoon), and in the three of us walk. Me, with several weeks of beard growth, unkempt, dirty, and with one arm wrapped up, and the other holding up my jeans! Remember - they had taken away my belt, and I had already lost about 15 lbs since getting to Israel. On either side of me, a HUGE cop, pistol holstered, but each carrying an Uzi submachine gun.....pointed upward, but with the magazine in.....like they were with John DIllinger, or something....parents began pulling their children close to them, away from me.... They took me to a very nice doctor who had a Russian accent, and who looked like Doctor Gillespe on that old medical show - what was it called??? He stared at me, knew I was American, looked at my kipa (yarmulke) and then in typical Israeli fashion, said: "What's a nice Jewish boy like you doing in such trouble??" I began to explain that I was part of a group that demonstrated in Hevron with Rav Kahane...but the moment I mentioned the Rav's name, he LEAPED across the table to congratulate me for what we did!! He called over his nursing team (who were like the nursing version of the 'Swedish Bikini Team') and told them to gently take out my stitches... I was fine, we all (including Rav Kahane) went to court the next day, and the charges were dropped. A Postscript: There were further attempts to return Beit Hadassah to Jewish hands, and a number of people got arrested, over and over again, until the government relented. Today, you can visit the Beit Hadassah building in Hevron....it's part of the Jewish community, once again. _____ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/411c1979/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 20:52:29 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:52:29 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Check out HonestReporting: monitoring mideast media anti-Israel bias. Message-ID: Shavua tov/Buena semana to all! Make sure to check out this site and pass it allong to any of your friends who are interested in the TRUTH! Hanoch _Click here: HonestReporting: monitoring mideast media anti-Israel bias._ (http://www.honestreporting.com/) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/14b49229/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 21:00:31 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 22:00:31 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Check out Stand for Israel: Stand for Israel Message-ID: _Click here: Stand for Israel: Stand for Israel_ (http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer?pagename=SFI_homepage) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/746fd8b4/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 21:02:46 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 22:02:46 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Check out History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand Maps Message-ID: _Click here: History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand Maps_ (http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/4d20f0a2/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 21:21:20 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:21:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] My saga - Part V (couldn't keep this one short) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <707133.8518.qm@web57104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hanoch, Each installment is better than the last. Keep'em coming, my friend. I can't wait for the next one!! I have made a special folder for your posts called Hanoch's Novel (LOL). Shalom from Alabama, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Listening to Rav Kahane teach from the Tanach (Hebrew bible) was an amazing experience. When he read from the prophets (as he often did..), you got the sense that he WAS Jeremiah or Isaiah - warning the people to wake up, or suffer the consequences. It mirrored his own life, being the "lone voice in the wilderness" - trying to get the Jews of Israel (or New York!) to see what's going on, to do something about it. I'm certain that that's where my attachment to studying the Neviim (prophets) came from. And in fact, it was the focus of the UIWU (United Israel World Union) ON the messages Hebrew prophets that first attracted me to this group. Our love of the prophets was what connected us...but we're jumping almost 20 years ahead, and much more to tell about now... Rav Kahane would teach us to truly LOVE HaShem, G-d (as he would put it, ".. Simply saying you Love HaShem, and not acting like you do, is like when you say you LOVE chocolate cake!"), and he filled me with the desire to delve deeper into the source material he was teaching from - primarily the Tanach (which he felt had the precedents to teach us how to behave as a nation), and then later on, the Talmud. He sent us to tour the Land with Aaron Pik, a renowned Israeli tour guide, known as 'Israel's Daniel Boone.' Lean, lanky, and with skin tanned dark brown like leather, Pik seemed to know every blade of grass in Israel - and who had walked there before we did. He pointed out where Jewish fighters ambushed the Roman soldiers during the Bar Kohba rebellion, and where various events of the Tanach occurred (including the cave where David hid from King Saul in Ein Gedi! Pik carried an Uzi with him, not that he had used it while touring, but just to 'convince those arabs who wanted to start something, not to.' These were the days before Oslo, before the "intifada," when Jews were still relatively safe touring their own land. But back to the story - Pik led us down through rocks and brambles into a wadi - cool running water, surrounded by tall rocks, on either side. We (the 8 of us and Pik) where on one side, and there seemed to be no one on the other side. We walked for a bit, and decided to stop, and relax a bit and rest. Almost diagonally across from us was an arab family picnicking - no big deal (or so we thought...). Pik had given me the gun, while he waded into the water, something none of us did, but he was 'Daniel Boone,' after all...right? Without getting too gross, I had a need to find a secluded spot, since 'nature was calling.' I walked ahead a bit, around the bend, and behind some rocks. (about a minute, or two, walk from my group). While I was there, the arab kids (from the family picnic) had evidently gone to get arab youth (late teens, early 20's - who knew?). And they began gathering rocks (there seemed to be very few rocks on our side of the wadi..), and evidently where going to stone my group. Just then, I come sauntering around the bend I had heard 'some' noise), now picture this - me, with three weeks of stubble (Hanoch was growing a beard, as all religious men seemed to have), faded jean shorts, light blue workshirt, paratroop boots, military cap and dark sunglasses...and an Uzi, cocked ('locked and loaded'). I held the Uzi in my right hand, finger on the trigger (which I later learned I shouldn't have done, unless committed to firing - which I probably was - LOL), with the wooden stock (remember those old Uzi's?) pressed against my ribs. Man, I looked like a cross between 'Dirty Harry' (Clint Eastwood at his BEST) and Che Guevera. I actually have a picture from that day! The expression on my face (as my pals later related to me) was clearly one of those, "go ahead punk, MAKE MY DAY...." Pik was yelling something to me, but frankly, I could only hear the blood pumping my in my chest (couldn't really 'hear' it, but it seemed that my heart and blood were pounding in my brain. I realized Pik was saying something - but till this day, I have no idea what he was saying; hell, I have no idea if he was speaking in English or Hebrew!! All I knew was as soon as that first rock was thrown, I was going to gun down as many of those dirt bags as I could..... It seemed the arabs picked up on the attitude of the "Bronx Psycho' (what our group called me for a while after that..), and put down the rocks (VERY slowly, as I recall) and immediately left. Pik grabbed the Uzi from me, and was clearly not pleased with young John Rambo (ha, ha - that movie wasn't out for many years yet...). Sighhhhh....I only got to handle a weapon in Israel (so far!), one other time, which was years later in 1982, walking back on Shabbat morning from the Ma'arat HaMachpela (tomb of the patriarchs) in Hevron. We were going back to Kiryat Arba, which overlooks Hevron, with my friend Baruch. He handed me his AK-47 (yes, my very own Kalashnikov!!!!), and said that since he had been arrested SO many times, if there was "trouble" - it would be much better for him, if it was ME that did the shooting (in self-defense, of course). It was an amazing feeling to carry that, my palms were sweating like crazy, as I kept rehearsing how I would fire the weapon. Fortunately, I didn't have to, but wow, could I have used something like THAT on the subway, while growing up.....But we're jumping ahead of our story.....But remember, at this point, with Rav Kahane, I'm feeling fervently 'religious' like a "zealot" of old, just like Modern Macabees.... Okay, we get back from the hike (darn it - Pik KEPT his Uzi!!), and we were all sweaty and grimy. Since I was the 'group leader' and had been prepared to keep guard over everyone ("Dirty Hanoch," instead of 'Dirty Harry'), they all agreed I could go into the shower first. Now, if you've ever been to Israel, you know what a big deal this really is! Israel has little water power, and the hot water, heated by the solar heater, would run out after the first few showers. I disrobe (no peaking guys!), and step into the shower/tub. There is a large window that opens in, right in the middle of the shower, over the tub! I pushed it closed with my left hand, but it then opened again. A bit annoyed, I pushed it again, and two seconds later, it popped open. Grrrrrrrr.....now this window is in the middle of the shower, I'm dirty, tired, and the adrenaline of almost killing a dozen arabs has long since worn off. So I REALLY gave this window a shove.....with my left arm going through the middle of the shattering glass... I was bleeding a LOT from my elbow, but was otherwise unharmed (I WAS naked, remember?). Putting on my jean shorts, I stepped out of the bathroom and had my pals get some kitchen towels and apply pressure to it. But I was bleeding like a stuck pig (albeit, a kosher one...). One of the guys called Rav Kahane, and he said - "...take Hanoch to Magen David Adom ('Red Star of David' - Israel's version of the Red Cross)!! Maybe they thought he could 'heal' me over the phone! LOL One of the guys, Jordan, began to speculate out loud, wondering if my blood had made those towels un-kosher....My blood is pumping out of me, and THAT was not what I wanted to hear... My friend Ira draped a jacket over my shoulders (he didn't want our very religious neighbors to be turned on by my bare chest, after all..), and we went out into the street, where a taxi pulled up immediately saw all the blood, and asked in Hebrew (Which I had finally begun to speak a bit), if we wanted to go to Magen David Adom....no, genius, I wanted to go to the opera!! Sighhhhhhh We got to Magen David Adom, and rushed in....since these were men and women who deal with the tragic aftermath of terrorist attacks, they were less then impressed with MY wound, blood dripping on the floor, or not. They cleaned it, stitched it (seemingly easily, even though it was around the elbow), and wrapped it - cautioning me to keep it dry, and that I MUST have the stitches taken out within a week (this point follows into the next part..). Although it was my faulty Hebrew which understood, "MUST have them taken out on that day." Pik was taking the group on an overnight trip three days later, which I couldn't go on ("..couldn't get the bandage dirty..."). I thought I would be alone, with nothing to do, but the Rav had other plans....we would be going back to Hevron, to help save another Jewish owned building. There is a building called, Beit Hadassah, which had served the small Jewish community until they were chased from Hevron in the pogrom of 1929. The man with the actual deed for the building tried to reclaim it (it was empty), but the Israeli government wouldn't allow it - didn't want to stir up the arabs.... A group of 20 guys from Gush Emunim had staged a sit-in at Beit Hadassah, but were jailed for two weeks. But Rav Kahane thought that we, as Americans could get away with more....so I rented buses, and began recruiting people to join us in a peaceful demonstration. I just kept reminding them to bring their passports...although they didn't quite 'get' why they needed them......(wink, wink) The day of the event, we took over the whole building, climbing on the roof, and chanting slogans (Hebrew and English) and singing songs. We had got a ton of press (there was a Page 3 story in the New York Times the next day...), and were of course, all arrested (hence, the need for the passports! LOL). They had all the guys loaded unto an Army truck (they let the girls go....), and placed Rav Kahane in a separate car, for "his comfort." It wasn't long before we saw that the police were taking him somewhere else then we were going....now that stunk! We figured that with the Rav with us we could learn Torah, and it would be a great event. But instead, we were driven to a jail in Petah Tikva..... Now, you have to realize that Israel is a modern, generally Westernized country. EXCEPT it's jails - which are clearly Middle Eastern....Think of the movie, "Midnight Express...." It was a stone structure, with a fairly small area to accommodate their 'guests.' There were metal bunk beds, with STRAW mattresses, which were covered by a thin sheet....we began to realize that this wasn't so 'cool' after all. Our belts and shoelaces were taken away...We did get to walk (twice a day!) in the small, enclosed yard, ringed with barbed wire. Meals were a slush of a small piece of chicken and what looked like a potato, in some kind of tomato-like sauce. Which of course, we had to eat with a spoon - no forks or knives! Now remember, this was just a holding jail - NOT a prison. We had yet to appear before a judge, or talk to a lawyer. We asked to speak to someone from the American Embassy, but they just laughed at us. There was a 'shower area' but the floor was SO slimy, with unidentifiable substances, that I couldn't go near it! There were a few Israeli guys who had been there for days. One, had scars from cut marks up and down his arm, which he had done with a broken bottle, just because he was bored one day. And he kept singing the only English he knew - "That's the way, uh huh, uh huh, I like it..." over, and over again.... The cops told us that if we signed a confession (I told you it was Middle Eastern!) in Hebrew, which they wouldn't translate for us, we would be released that night! We were all excited, we were getting out, and didn't have to listen to that psycho sing any more, so we signed those 'confessions.' We didn't get out, and to this day, I have no idea what I signed....I may have confessed to killing President Kennedy, for all I know... By the next day, all our nerves were rubbed raw by the lowlife inmates who couldn't understand why we were in Israel and cared WHO was in Hevron. But then it dawned on me.....that was the day I had to have my stitches taken out!! Oh my G-d....what was I going to do now?? They told me I MUST have them taken out that day..... So, my friend who spoke better Hebrew then I, kept calling to the guards, explaining that I needed medical attention. Like an old prison movie ("Birdman of Alcatraz) we stood with our arms thorough the bars, calling to the guards. Finally, with a stroke of genius, he told them that I would develop gangrene if I did not have those stitches taken out.....then they decided they would take me to a medical facility. Although I had only been locked up for two days, I was thrilled I was 'getting out' - even briefly. So, off I went, in a police car, with two, huge Israeli cops. We pull up in front of the medical clinic, and they park the car...and we sit....and I couldn't understand why. I soon found out....these teenage girls came swarming over to talk to the big, hunky policemen!! Kind of like a guy from the NYFD (New York Firefighters), these cops, evidently picked up girls ALL the time!!!! But I didn't complain, this was my 'freedom.' Then we got out of the car, and walked into the clinic, which was when they began acting all official-like. Picture this scene - it's a crowded waiting room...lots of mothers and children and older folks (this was the middle of the afternoon), and in the three of us walk. Me, with several weeks of beard growth, unkempt, dirty, and with one arm wrapped up, and the other holding up my jeans! Remember - they had taken away my belt, and I had already lost about 15 lbs since getting to Israel. On either side of me, a HUGE cop, pistol holstered, but each carrying an Uzi submachine gun.....pointed upward, but with the magazine in.....like they were with John DIllinger, or something....parents began pulling their children close to them, away from me.... They took me to a very nice doctor who had a Russian accent, and who looked like Doctor Gillespe on that old medical show - what was it called??? He stared at me, knew I was American, looked at my kipa (yarmulke) and then in typical Israeli fashion, said: "What's a nice Jewish boy like you doing in such trouble??" I began to explain that I was part of a group that demonstrated in Hevron with Rav Kahane...but the moment I mentioned the Rav's name, he LEAPED across the table to congratulate me for what we did!! He called over his nursing team (who were like the nursing version of the 'Swedish Bikini Team') and told them to gently take out my stitches... I was fine, we all (including Rav Kahane) went to court the next day, and the charges were dropped. A Postscript: There were further attempts to return Beit Hadassah to Jewish hands, and a number of people got arrested, over and over again, until the government relented. Today, you can visit the Beit Hadassah building in Hevron....it's part of the Jewish community, once again. --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/3e5e2f64/attachment.html From tbear001 at bellsouth.net Sat Dec 1 21:59:10 2007 From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net (roy landry) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:59:10 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole In-Reply-To: <008001c8347d$622bc090$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <434156.72755.qm@web1001.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <008001c8347d$622bc090$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <00b101c83497$b272e780$6402a8c0@roysoffice> I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud. I suppose I need to start. I have some questions you all may be able to help me with. I understand it is the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form? I have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah? Do you think the Talmud is really God's words or tradition? Thanks Roy _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole Rick, Good question. - What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far. However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were "The people" complained and God sent the serpent's. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, "and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live". Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, "and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 The word - man - in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some. If we go back to the first of the chapter we see "the people spoke against God, and against Moses". I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. Rashi in the Chumash says, when the people spoke against God and Moses, "they placed the servant on a par with his Master".. Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the church have done with Jesus? The Chumash goes on to say - our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu. - Jewish Encyclop. Shalom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/01c923c6/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 21:48:25 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 22:48:25 EST Subject: [Dialogue] My saga - Part V (couldn't keep this one short) Message-ID: Hey Tammy - Thank you ('toda'), as we say in Hebrew :-) Wow...saving this stuff in a folder, I am really blown away... And once again, I really appreciate all of you letting me share my background....and I hope that it all leads me, to be able to share whatever I can with all of you, and to be 'there' for all of you, in anyway that I can. May you be blessed in all that you do, Shalom my friend, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/e2bd8a75/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Dec 1 22:00:50 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 04:00:50 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole Message-ID: <120220070400.5641.47522DEF0006C56A0000160922230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> He Roy, My limited study indicates tradition. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "roy landry" : -------------- I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud. I suppose I need to start. I have some questions you all may be able to help me with. I understand it is the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form? I have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah? Do you think the Talmud is really God?s words or tradition? Thanks Roy From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole Rick, Good question. - What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far. However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were ?The people? complained and God sent the serpent?s. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, ?and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live?. Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, ?and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 The word ? man - in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some. If we go back to the first of the chapter we see ?the people spoke against God, and against Moses?. I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. Rashi in the Chumash says, when the people spoke against God and Moses, ?they placed the servant on a par with his Master??? Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the church have done with Jesus? The Chumash goes on to say ? our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu. ? Jewish Encyclop. Shalom From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/afa8d85b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Dec 1 22:11:55 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:11:55 EST Subject: [Dialogue] My saga - Part V (couldn't keep this one short) Message-ID: Dearest Betty, Shavua tov to you! Okay, I'll grind 'em out as long as they need to be!! :-) I have had you and Roger on my mind, and in my prayers. May THIS week (with Chanuka!) bring the two of you the opportunities and 'breaks' you so richly deserve. My heart is with you!! Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071201/df081bcc/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Dec 2 07:06:15 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 08:06:15 EST Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI Message-ID: The Rav never asked us to do anything 'violent' - it's not 'smart' for people who are the 'public faces' of a movement or origination (those that are at demonstrations, those that do the public speaking, etc) to be the ones doing the series 'actions' - they are too visible to the authorities. You would have to be an unknown - someone who no one associates with a particular organization. But one time we were all (the whole group and the Rav) were standing on a roof of a building in the Old City, looking over on the Temple Mount (which the arabs defile daily, with their presence, their mules, their cats, etc. He glanced toward the gold colored dome, which is built over the Even HaShetiya (which we believe to be the very foundation stone of the Earth -where Avraham to Yitzhak, etc), and sighed, saying, "...what you could do with two shoulderheld missiles, right now......just two missles.........sighh...okay, but that's not what you're here for..." I've often reflected back on that moment and wondered what the exact meaning of those comments were. Although I think I knew very clearly what he meant.... Anytime spent with Rav Kahane was a chance to be in the presence of a very knowledgeable and proud Jewish leader. Well, I had been proud for a long time, but I knew that I needed a lot more 'formal' Jewish education, and committed myself to that, once I returned to the U.S. That, and helping to lead JDL. That magical summer was drawing to a close, and we were preparing to go back to the States, to be the young Jewish leaders that were going to lead a 'revolution' among American Jewry, and 'spread the word,' so to speak. A week before we were due to return to New York, I got a cryptic message that simply said, "Friends in New York think you should STAY in Israel." That's all....at least until I found out the background, which had to do with those indictments before the summer. It appeared that my name came up a number of times in police/FBI wiretaps, and at that point, no one knew how 'involved' I was, or wasn't. There was one tape (you can't believe the stupidity of these guys who were making calls like this from their home phones!!) where my name was mentioned because they were trying to get me to be the driver for the guys that were going to shoot four bullets through the door of the Soviet residence (remember that one?). It turns out that they wanted to do it on Friday night, and I wouldn't go - because it was Shabbat; good thing, huh? People within the JDL leadership (the "JDL 'Adults' that we, the active youth, detested, because we did it all, and they claimed the credit with their friends) came to the Bronx to visit with my parents (Of Blessed Memory), to tell them (no details given..) that they needed to warn me not to come back to the U.S. When my mother pressed for details (her little boy had to be innocent, right?), they said that it seemed like I hadn't done anything, but that I was likely to be subpoenaed, and since I wouldn't testify against another Jew in court (in a case like this), I would wind up going to prison. My poor mom was scared to death...and I never forgave the idiots who frightened her for no reason. I came back, and as I explained before, I wasn't indicted....I came back to help lead the JDL, to help make a 'difference' (STILL working on that one), and to prepare for my own Aliyah - immigration to Israel (not going at that point was the single, biggest mistake of my life, with a ton of ramifications, which I am still dealing with today, right now, as I write this..) But there were far greater issues standing in the way of my 'making a difference' then the three guys who wound up going to prison. JDL was an organization that was torn apart....Rav Kahane was in Israel, he wanted funds to run for the Kenneset (Israel's parliament), and for his organization there, 'Kach' ('Thus'). The JDL men and women here, wanted the old-fashioned JDL, that would protect cemetaries, run street patrols, and chase after old Nazi criminals in the U.S. I will spare you from the politics, but there were splits, attempted coups, negative ads run by different factions in the "Jewish Press," Attempts to start the "New JDL," etc. It was a disaster...the whole "activist world" had changed while we were in Israel that summer. No JDL as we knew it, and Betar was focused on its summer camp for little kids... So, instead of leading anything, I tried to concentrate on finishing college, focused on learning Torah, and tried to find a Jewish organization that I could volunteer for; I tried several. For that year (and the previous one), I also had to work part time to help support my parents, since my dad had been on disability. I went back to those Shabbatonim (weekend events), using talks about the Russian trip as a springboard to talk about Jewish issues and particularly Aliyah (immigration to Israel). Let me be clear at this point - EVERY Jew belongs in Israel, PERIOD! There is no rationale that can excuse my failure (so far, at least!) to make my life in Israel, even though there were times I went there for job interviews, etc, but that's coming up a bit later...But remaining here - this has been hell, and I will never forgive myself for not only being here, but raising my daughters here, even though they seem to know exactly what they need to be doing with their lives at this point.....With G-d's help, maybe I'll at least have Israeli grandchildren...sighhhhhhh. But this is a failure that haunts me every single day... I spent the following year after college learning two nights a week in a Yeshiva, and then the following year, three full days/week, and working part time the other two days. I also took the entire summer of 1978 to learn in a special program that was all day long, for seven weeks, for those who did not grow up going to Yeshivot (the plural of 'Yeshiva'). I went to evening lectures, every chance I got. And there were plenty of them available. New York was in the midst of a tremendous Jewish educational revolution, with Rav Avi Weiss, and Rav Shlomo Riskin, and others teaching and sharing Torah. This was probably my first 'high point' in terms of Torah scholarship, I was now actually really into it. And actually becoming pretty knowledgeable. I was in loose touch with Rav Kahane (he wasn't the kind of guy you just called up and shot the breeze with, if you know what I mean), and tried to be involved every time he wanted to try to start up a new organization, or new "front group." But it seemed that activism as we knew it, was dead. It was under his (and Rav Avi Weiss') pressure to get married, that I did - at a very young age; a very young 22 (I was a baby - I had never lived away from home). There had been one girl on our Leadership program in Israel, and this was a sort of 'ideological match.' I had rarely dated (I was busy trying to save the Jewish world, remember?) and she was practically the first woman I ever went out with more then twice, who didn't break up with me (wow, that sounds truly pathetic, doesn't it? Wow..). What we felt about the 'ideology' and what we felt about Israel were what was important, or so it seemed. Having other things in common never seemed to come up......and I thought if I didn't change for the worse, she wouldn't either BIG assumption). We did wind up having two wonderful girls......but that came a bit later...a silver lining in every cloud, I guess. I went to Israel in the summer of 1982 to interview for jobs - I had to go on Aliyah, and needed to work, right? Previously, as an eager 19-20 year old, my job ambition was to be a hero in the Tzanchanim - the Israeli paratroopers. It didn't dawn on me, that the recently diagnosed scoliosis (37 degree curve of my spine), and my flat feet would prevent me from getting into a combat unit in the Israeli army. It didn't even penetrate my thick head when, after running the 1983 N.Y. Marathon (at a lean 164lbs.), I had constant knee pain, which lead me to have an arthroscopy. The doctors showed me on the scope (I had insisted to be fully awake for the whole procedure - stupid, I know...) that my left patella (knee cap) had a crack that ran the entire length of it. It was a squiggly line, and kind of looked like the Grateful Dead symbol. Bizarre... The docs told me that with a cracked patella I should no longer cycle, running was out, and I had to avoid all 'trauma' to my knee, even playing volleyball! I was composed, and I asked them, "Okay, I can do that, but for how long? I need to be a paratrooper, and have to jump from airplanes." The two docs looked at each other like I was a deranged alien, and said, "well, it's forever, and you have no problem with your knee jumping from a plane, you just can't land..." SO much for a career in the Israeli Army.... I went to 7 interviews that summer in 1982, and my timing was awful - the War in Lebanon (Part I) had just broken out, and funds were being slashed for all academic related positions. At this point, I already had an M.S. in Exercise Physiology, to go along with my BA in Physical Education. I was SURE there had to be a job for me....I was positive, I needed to be in Israel, and that Israel needed new immigrants, etc. But there wasn't...and not only that, every native Israeli (a "Sabra") that I spoke with thought I was NUTS for wanting to come to Israel under ANY circumstances, and I should stay in America, and get a Ph.D. in Exercise Physiology (hey, I didn't like it THAT much!). It was very depressing, very discouraging, and I was barely earning a living in NYC, and was unable to save - which was obviously going to be important for Israel. The other people I met with, suggested I go back to school, or come to Israel and go to school, but no one had jobs....not in a sports medicine related field, or teaching physical education. Israel had begun to absorb Soviet block immigrants, many who had Master of Sports credentials (or, were concert musicians, it seems..). So, I came back to the U.S., and kind of aimlessly tried to think of saving for Aliyah, but I was earning a crisp $33,000/year, and had to buy a car just to get to work...money was flying out, faster then it was coming in....But, I figured I'd try again in two years; China had its 5 year plans, and Hanoch would have his 2 year plans! Well, 1984 came, and my world changed forever, and seemed to be falling apart. Within a six month time period, I had three car accidents driving to work (yeah, you don't want me driving the group down the Billy Graham Parkway in Charlotte..). Within the midst of this, we had decided to have a baby. We got official confirmation that we were indeed 'expecting' on the very same day that my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer. Fortunately for dad, he didn't suffer much - he died within 50 days of diagnosis....He died late on a Wednesday night, the night before my birthday, shortly before midnight. He had been in bed with my mom, and told her he was sorry for being so much trouble, and that he loved her (my folks adored each other). They kissed, he closed his eyes, and evidently died within moments. I got the frantic call from my mom minutes later, that, "..I think daddy's dead..." and indeed he was....at age 64....We buried dad on Friday morning (it was too late to make arrangements for burial on Thursday), and we experienced a miscarriage that next Monday afternoon, at the start of what would have been the 4th month.....my whole world collapsed.....It was hard to think of Aliyah having just had a few months like that....hell, I could barely think straight....I turned back to studying Torah for solace... Hanoch Next Chapter: How I got to the UIWU, Ten Lost Tribes and the Har HaBayit - the Temple Mount. Oh, and maybe about my girls, too! :-) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/f699be55/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Sun Dec 2 08:05:45 2007 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 09:05:45 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole In-Reply-To: <00b101c83497$b272e780$6402a8c0@roysoffice> References: <434156.72755.qm@web1001.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><008001c8347d$622bc090$0200a8c0@marvin> <00b101c83497$b272e780$6402a8c0@roysoffice> Message-ID: <004201c834ec$70970210$0200a8c0@marvin> Roy, Go to the Roots of faith home page and go to links. Spend some time reading Jewish Encyclopedia. I think you will find a world of information which will help further your understanding. Also, you will see that Ross has several good links on his link page. Just be prepare.. Get one answer, come up with 10 more questions. shalom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of roy landry Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud. I suppose I need to start. I have some questions you all may be able to help me with. I understand it is the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form? I have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah? Do you think the Talmud is really God's words or tradition? Thanks Roy _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole Rick, Good question. - What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far. However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were "The people" complained and God sent the serpent's. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, "and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live". Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, "and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 The word - man - in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some. If we go back to the first of the chapter we see "the people spoke against God, and against Moses". I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. Rashi in the Chumash says, when the people spoke against God and Moses, "they placed the servant on a par with his Master".. Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the church have done with Jesus? The Chumash goes on to say - our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu. - Jewish Encyclop. Shalom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/66d8eee1/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 2 08:19:20 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 14:19:20 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole In-Reply-To: <004201c834ec$70970210$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <434156.72755.qm@web1001.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><008001c8347d$622bc090$0200a8c0@marvin><00b101c83497$b272e780$6402a8c0@roysoffice><004201c834ec$70970210$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <1476836047-1196605585-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2075456118-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Amen! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "mhyde" Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 09:05:45 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole Roy, Go to the Roots of faith home page and go to links. Spend some time reading ?Jewish Encyclopedia . I think you will find a world of information which will help further your understanding.? Also, you will see that Ross has several good links on his link page.? Just be prepare?. Get one answer, come up with 10 more questions. ? shalom? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of roy landry Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole ? I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud.? I suppose I need to start. ?I have some questions you all may be able to help me with.? I understand it is the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form?? I have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah?? Do you think the Talmud is really God?s words or tradition? ? Thanks ?Roy ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole ? Rick,? ? Good question. - ?What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole?? Or was everyone bitten? ? ?In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far.? However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were ?The people? complained and God sent the serpent?s. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, ?and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live?. ? Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, ?and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 ? The word ? man - ?in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some.? If we go back to the first of the chapter we see ?the people spoke against God, and against Moses?. ?I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. ????Rashi in the Chumash says, ?when the people spoke against God and Moses, ?they placed the servant on a par with his Master????? Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the? church have done with Jesus? ???The Chumash goes on to say ? our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) ? The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu.? ? ?Jewish Encyclop. ? Shalom ? ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... ? What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole?? Or was everyone bitten? Rick ? ? ? _______________________________________________ From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 08:30:40 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 06:30:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <960266.58188.qm@web57103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Good Morning Hanoch, Another wonderfully written installment!! It is truly hard to believe all that you have experienced. I can't wait for part VII. Hope to hear from you soon. Shalom, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: The Rav never asked us to do anything 'violent' - it's not 'smart' for, people who are the 'public faces' of a movement or origination (those that are at demonstrations, those that do the public speaking, etc) to be the ones doing the series 'actions' - they are too visible to the authorities. You would have to be an unknown - someone who no one associates with a particular organization. But one time we were all (the whole group and the Rav) were standing on a roof of a building in the Old City, looking over on the Temple Mount (which the arabs defile daily, with their presence, their mules, their cats, etc. He glanced toward the gold colored dome, which is built over the Even HaShetiya (which we believe to be the very foundation stone of the Earth -where Avraham to Yitzhak, etc), and sighed, saying, "...what you could do with two shoulderheld missiles, right now......just two missles.........sighh...okay, but that's not what you're here for..." I've often reflected back on that moment and wondered what the exact meaning of those comments were. Although I think I knew very clearly what he meant.... Anytime spent with Rav Kahane was a chance to be in the presence of a very knowledgeable and proud Jewish leader. Well, I had been proud for a long time, but I knew that I needed a lot more 'formal' Jewish education, and committed myself to that, once I returned to the U.S. That, and helping to lead JDL. That magical summer was drawing to a close, and we were preparing to go back to the States, to be the young Jewish leaders that were going to lead a 'revolution' among American Jewry, and 'spread the word,' so to speak. A week before we were due to return to New York, I got a cryptic message that simply said, "Friends in New York think you should STAY in Israel." That's all....at least until I found out the background, which had to do with those indictments before the summer. It appeared that my name came up a number of times in police/FBI wiretaps, and at that point, no one knew how 'involved' I was, or wasn't. There was one tape (you can't believe the stupidity of these guys who were making calls like this from their home phones!!) where my name was mentioned because they were trying to get me to be the driver for the guys that were going to shoot four bullets through the door of the Soviet residence (remember that one?). It turns out that they wanted to do it on Friday night, and I wouldn't go - because it was Shabbat; good thing, huh? People within the JDL leadership (the "JDL 'Adults' that we, the active youth, detested, because we did it all, and they claimed the credit with their friends) came to the Bronx to visit with my parents (Of Blessed Memory), to tell them (no details given..) that they needed to warn me not to come back to the U.S. When my mother pressed for details (her little boy had to be innocent, right?), they said that it seemed like I hadn't done anything, but that I was likely to be subpoenaed, and since I wouldn't testify against another Jew in court (in a case like this), I would wind up going to prison. My poor mom was scared to death...and I never forgave the idiots who frightened her for no reason. I came back, and as I explained before, I wasn't indicted....I came back to help lead the JDL, to help make a 'difference' (STILL working on that one), and to prepare for my own Aliyah - immigration to Israel (not going at that point was the single, biggest mistake of my life, with a ton of ramifications, which I am still dealing with today, right now, as I write this..) But there were far greater issues standing in the way of my 'making a difference' then the three guys who wound up going to prison. JDL was an organization that was torn apart....Rav Kahane was in Israel, he wanted funds to run for the Kenneset (Israel's parliament), and for his organization there, 'Kach' ('Thus'). The JDL men and women here, wanted the old-fashioned JDL, that would protect cemetaries, run street patrols, and chase after old Nazi criminals in the U.S. I will spare you from the politics, but there were splits, attempted coups, negative ads run by different factions in the "Jewish Press," Attempts to start the "New JDL," etc. It was a disaster...the whole "activist world" had changed while we were in Israel that summer. No JDL as we knew it, and Betar was focused on its summer camp for little kids... So, instead of leading anything, I tried to concentrate on finishing college, focused on learning Torah, and tried to find a Jewish organization that I could volunteer for; I tried several. For that year (and the previous one), I also had to work part time to help support my parents, since my dad had been on disability. I went back to those Shabbatonim (weekend events), using talks about the Russian trip as a springboard to talk about Jewish issues and particularly Aliyah (immigration to Israel). Let me be clear at this point - EVERY Jew belongs in Israel, PERIOD! There is no rationale that can excuse my failure (so far, at least!) to make my life in Israel, even though there were times I went there for job interviews, etc, but that's coming up a bit later...But remaining here - this has been hell, and I will never forgive myself for not only being here, but raising my daughters here, even though they seem to know exactly what they need to be doing with their lives at this point.....With G-d's help, maybe I'll at least have Israeli grandchildren...sighhhhhhh. But this is a failure that haunts me every single day... I spent the following year after college learning two nights a week in a Yeshiva, and then the following year, three full days/week, and working part time the other two days. I also took the entire summer of 1978 to learn in a special program that was all day long, for seven weeks, for those who did not grow up going to Yeshivot (the plural of 'Yeshiva'). I went to evening lectures, every chance I got. And there were plenty of them available. New York was in the midst of a tremendous Jewish educational revolution, with Rav Avi Weiss, and Rav Shlomo Riskin, and others teaching and sharing Torah. This was probably my first 'high point' in terms of Torah scholarship, I was now actually really into it. And actually becoming pretty knowledgeable. I was in loose touch with Rav Kahane (he wasn't the kind of guy you just called up and shot the breeze with, if you know what I mean), and tried to be involved every time he wanted to try to start up a new organization, or new "front group." But it seemed that activism as we knew it, was dead. It was under his (and Rav Avi Weiss') pressure to get married, that I did - at a very young age; a very young 22 (I was a baby - I had never lived away from home). There had been one girl on our Leadership program in Israel, and this was a sort of 'ideological match.' I had rarely dated (I was busy trying to save the Jewish world, remember?) and she was practically the first woman I ever went out with more then twice, who didn't break up with me (wow, that sounds truly pathetic, doesn't it? Wow..). What we felt about the 'ideology' and what we felt about Israel were what was important, or so it seemed. Having other things in common never seemed to come up......and I thought if I didn't change for the worse, she wouldn't either BIG assumption). We did wind up having two wonderful girls......but that came a bit later...a silver lining in every cloud, I guess. I went to Israel in the summer of 1982 to interview for jobs - I had to go on Aliyah, and needed to work, right? Previously, as an eager 19-20 year old, my job ambition was to be a hero in the Tzanchanim - the Israeli paratroopers. It didn't dawn on me, that the recently diagnosed scoliosis (37 degree curve of my spine), and my flat feet would prevent me from getting into a combat unit in the Israeli army. It didn't even penetrate my thick head when, after running the 1983 N.Y. Marathon (at a lean 164lbs.), I had constant knee pain, which lead me to have an arthroscopy. The doctors showed me on the scope (I had insisted to be fully awake for the whole procedure - stupid, I know...) that my left patella (knee cap) had a crack that ran the entire length of it. It was a squiggly line, and kind of looked like the Grateful Dead symbol. Bizarre... The docs told me that with a cracked patella I should no longer cycle, running was out, and I had to avoid all 'trauma' to my knee, even playing volleyball! I was composed, and I asked them, "Okay, I can do that, but for how long? I need to be a paratrooper, and have to jump from airplanes." The two docs looked at each other like I was a deranged alien, and said, "well, it's forever, and you have no problem with your knee jumping from a plane, you just can't land..." SO much for a career in the Israeli Army.... I went to 7 interviews that summer in 1982, and my timing was awful - the War in Lebanon (Part I) had just broken out, and funds were being slashed for all academic related positions. At this point, I already had an M.S. in Exercise Physiology, to go along with my BA in Physical Education. I was SURE there had to be a job for me....I was positive, I needed to be in Israel, and that Israel needed new immigrants, etc. But there wasn't...and not only that, every native Israeli (a "Sabra") that I spoke with thought I was NUTS for wanting to come to Israel under ANY circumstances, and I should stay in America, and get a Ph.D. in Exercise Physiology (hey, I didn't like it THAT much!). It was very depressing, very discouraging, and I was barely earning a living in NYC, and was unable to save - which was obviously going to be important for Israel. The other people I met with, suggested I go back to school, or come to Israel and go to school, but no one had jobs....not in a sports medicine related field, or teaching physical education. Israel had begun to absorb Soviet block immigrants, many who had Master of Sports credentials (or, were concert musicians, it seems..). So, I came back to the U.S., and kind of aimlessly tried to think of saving for Aliyah, but I was earning a crisp $33,000/year, and had to buy a car just to get to work...money was flying out, faster then it was coming in....But, I figured I'd try again in two years; China had its 5 year plans, and Hanoch would have his 2 year plans! Well, 1984 came, and my world changed forever, and seemed to be falling apart. Within a six month time period, I had three car accidents driving to work (yeah, you don't want me driving the group down the Billy Graham Parkway in Charlotte..). Within the midst of this, we had decided to have a baby. We got official confirmation that we were indeed 'expecting' on the very same day that my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer. Fortunately for dad, he didn't suffer much - he died within 50 days of diagnosis....He died late on a Wednesday night, the night before my birthday, shortly before midnight. He had been in bed with my mom, and told her he was sorry for being so much trouble, and that he loved her (my folks adored each other). They kissed, he closed his eyes, and evidently died within moments. I got the frantic call from my mom minutes later, that, "..I think daddy's dead..." and indeed he was....at age 64....We buried dad on Friday morning (it was too late to make arrangements for burial on Thursday), and we experienced a miscarriage that next Monday afternoon, at the start of what would have been the 4th month.....my whole world collapsed.....It was hard to think of Aliyah having just had a few months like that....hell, I could barely think straight....I turned back to studying Torah for solace... Hanoch Next Chapter: How I got to the UIWU, Ten Lost Tribes and the Har HaBayit - the Temple Mount. Oh, and maybe about my girls, too! :-) --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/c0d97735/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Dec 2 08:36:06 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 09:36:06 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow In-Reply-To: References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <27D33433-BBC5-4482-B754-4C177D2B10C9@mac.com> Message-ID: Dear Bonnie and all, Since you mentioned my name I thought I might offer a few thoughts. I would say we are much more of a dialoguing association of individuals than a "movement" per se, certainly in this new discussion that Ross Nichols has set up, which has drawn in a much wider group and I think is potentially open to anyone who is sincerely seeking our Creator God and to walk in his/her Ways, and wants to "dialogue" about "Roots of Faith" in a way respectful to the views of others. So in that sense the "tent" is pretty big, probably as wide as our respect for honest differences is. Since Ross is the moderator, not me, and has invited "whosoever will" to come and sit at this table, he will be the one to determine how the parameters work out. I think the reason there is such a good spirit of respect and harmony, even with differences, is that people involved have walked on many of the same paths and had similar experiences, even if ending up with different conclusions, plus there is a basic unity in seeking the God of Abraham as revealed in the Torah and Prophets. You should also not assume that our views of Israel and the current situation in the land are uniform. I don't think I have expressed my views on that subject but I do not share the view of those who advocate violent slaughter or removal of the Arab population on the West side of the Jordan, nor do I support the views of Rabbi Lerner, particularly on the 1967 borders and the Palestinian State he advocates. This is not to say one is opposed to the ethical principles of peace, justice, and righteousness and the ideals of a society built on biblical principles that he highlights. On the other hand I have a strong view that those who do not live there should not pass judgment from afar and that only those who have thrown their lot in with the permanent inhabitants of the Land can really view things from a perspective of being "inside" or part of the solution. That said I should emphasize that I only speak for myself here. I would be quite reluctant to engage in any kind of extensive political discussion involving the current situation in Israel in this kind of e-mail forum. I have known some in this group for nearly twenty years and I think when it comes to politics, domestic or Israeli, we are probably worlds apart from one another. I think we can all agree on various ideals, but when it comes to the matter of implementation in our flawed political world, most of us are looking to a future spoken of by the Prophets, when YHVH himself "returns," and the new Exodus spoken of by Jeremiah comes about, in which YHVH gives us shepherds of his own choosing. I have focused my own study and writings in this area on trying to understand and expound those prophetic texts. The potential "fit" between the future they envision and our present is always tenuous. In the meantime each of us has to make our political and social choices in our own communities and country. Warmest best, James On Dec 1, 2007, at 6:44 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: > Denny and John C, > I think it is still too soon to say I am in this movement. I am > actually still considering converting to Jewish, not Messianic > Jewish, however, my Christian teacher says that I am moving in the > right direction, after all Jesus was a Jew. I am still overwhelmed > trying to figure out how "big tent" this movement is; there is so > much to read, and it seems many different perspectives; yet everyone > is respectful of everyone and I find that wonderful. If searching > together for the truth by sharing w/o a requirement that everyone > come to the same truth conclusions is the movement, then yes, I am > in. However, if everyone has to be of the same belief for what > needs to happen in the state of Israel today, then ... I am not > moving in the same direction as James Tabor, but I would rather my > Rabbi teacher explain why. I am a member of the Tikkun Community of > Rabbi Lerner, an interfaith movement. www.tikun.org and currently > reading his book, "HEALING ISRAEL/PALESTINE, A Path to Peace and > Reconciliation" which is different from what Hanoch, James and Ross > are saying ... so I am still wondering if I will be welcome in this > dialogue because I really agree with Rabbi Lerner. I wish we could > get them to dialogue with each other for us all to hear and maybe > then we could really all come together to learn and work for God's > mission ... a dream worth working for. > Shalom, Bonnie > > On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > >> Hi Bonnie, >> >> I have never been in your area. But I hear it is beautiful. >> My email address is dennyj at mac.com. >> That website is not associated with my son any longer. Aaron Eby is >> the one responsible at this time. Aaron also writes for FFOZ http://www.ffoz.org >> . >> I think you would really like that site if you have never been >> there. Our son attends Beth Immanuel http://www.bethimmanuel.org >> where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches and leads. You surely have heard >> of Daniel and his works. We have had him and his family in our home >> a couple of times for Shabbat. Nice family. Good man. >> >> So, how did you get into this movement? >> >> Denny >> >> On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >> >>> Hi Denny, >>> I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage >>> Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the >>> "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the possibility >>> of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He has a great >>> respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, not as a God >>> or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I like what your >>> son is doing and thank you for that website. Is it OK to pass it >>> on? How do you get your email address to be in the From: whereas >>> mine is only my name. My email address is >>> b.nelson@ alaska.com >>> Bonnie >>> >>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Bonnie, >>>> >>>> We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful >>>> day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. >>>> What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan cruise >>>> last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an the like. >>>> Beautiful country. >>>> Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My >>>> wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of >>>> our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and >>>> even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. You >>>> are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels >>>> strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored to >>>> some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural >>>> shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. >>>> Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your >>>> in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the >>>> same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that >>>> seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know as >>>> I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing God >>>> is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike trust. He >>>> is my Abba. >>>> >>>> So again, where in Alaska are you? >>>> >>>> Denny >>>> >>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Denny, >>>>> I really liked reading your email this morning and making me >>>>> realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I am >>>>> wondering where you live. I also related to what you said about >>>>> deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me even >>>>> though I have never been Christian. I like being unburdened and >>>>> adrift, it's like we are trying to create our maps, but doing it >>>>> collaboratively is way more rewarding than alone. >>>>> Bonnie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Good morning all, >>>>>> Shabbat Shalom! >>>>>> >>>>>> I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our >>>>>> grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. >>>>>> It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. >>>>>> Can you imagine the noise? >>>>>> >>>>>> Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent >>>>>> conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. >>>>>> I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking >>>>>> about and questioning him about where he is at now in his >>>>>> journey. >>>>>> Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our >>>>>> family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to >>>>>> go at this time. >>>>>> He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath >>>>>> fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret >>>>>> Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) >>>>>> They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main >>>>>> group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed >>>>>> into somewhat of a different character. >>>>>> Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience >>>>>> and now consider themselves more Noahide in their >>>>>> understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. >>>>>> We didn't really understand what happened, but after my >>>>>> conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. >>>>>> He started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the >>>>>> trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers >>>>>> he went deep into textual criticism and was at a place much >>>>>> like what you all have been sharing with me. But he told me >>>>>> that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper >>>>>> into the same issues with the O.T. he ran into many problems >>>>>> there, too. As he put it to me last night...."Dad, I looked >>>>>> over the fence and decided not to go any further for fear that >>>>>> there wouldn't be anything left to believe in or teach my >>>>>> children". He knows enough now to completely destroy a >>>>>> Christians faith if he wanted to. He doesn't want to by the >>>>>> way. He still has faith in the God of our fathers but it is a >>>>>> lot different than it used to be. He basically told me that i >>>>>> really don't want to go down this road. Many get depressed and >>>>>> lose all faith and basically get really messed up. Maybe there >>>>>> is some truth to the saying "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. >>>>>> You all seem eons ahead of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I >>>>>> shall become a fly on the wall and just listen in. I really >>>>>> don't know where I am at the moment. I feel like a blank slate >>>>>> wanting God to write on me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your >>>>>> postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. >>>>>> And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I >>>>>> am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My >>>>>> fear is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know truth >>>>>> if what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the Bible, >>>>>> the Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period of my >>>>>> life as a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling time. >>>>>> One thing that stand out to me know is not so much what I >>>>>> BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and >>>>>> what I love about what I see in this group is the obvious love, >>>>>> kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see here. You all >>>>>> are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to identify >>>>>> with you in any way because others might think that i believe >>>>>> as you do and that would not be good. I proudly identify with >>>>>> you because you are all good and humble people who really do >>>>>> know how to live a life of love. Thank you for your example. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with >>>>>> Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming >>>>>> today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm >>>>>> of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all >>>>>> the noise around here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Blessings of Sabbath to you all. >>>>>> >>>>>> Denny >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/bbea06f8/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 2 09:08:12 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 15:08:12 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <292959367-1196608120-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1150346300-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> This could be a miniseries. Keep it coming Hanoch. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 08:06:15 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI The Rav never asked us to do anything 'violent' - it's not 'smart' for people who are the 'public faces' of a movement or origination (those that are at demonstrations, those that do the public speaking, etc) to be the ones doing the series 'actions' - they are too visible to the authorities.? You would have to be an unknown - someone who no one associates with a particular organization.? But one time we were all (the whole group and the Rav) were standing on a roof of? a building in the Old City, looking over on the Temple Mount (which the arabs defile daily, with their presence, their mules, their cats, etc.?? He glanced toward the gold colored dome, which is built over?the Even HaShetiya?(which we believe to be the very foundation stone of the Earth -where Avraham to Yitzhak, etc), and sighed, saying, "...what you could do with two shoulderheld missiles, right now......just two missles.........sighh...okay, but that's not what you're here for..."? I've often reflected back on that moment and wondered what the exact meaning of those comments were.? Although I think I knew very clearly what he meant.... ? Anytime spent with Rav Kahane was a chance to be in the presence of a very knowledgeable and proud Jewish leader.? Well, I had been proud for a long time, but I knew that I needed a lot more 'formal' Jewish education,?and committed myself to that, once I returned to the U.S.? That, and helping to lead JDL. ? That magical summer was drawing to a close, and we were preparing to go back to the States, to be the young Jewish leaders that were going to lead a 'revolution' among American Jewry, and 'spread the word,' so to speak.? A week before we were due to return to New York, I got a cryptic message that simply said, "Friends in New York think you should STAY in Israel."? That's all....at least until I found out the background, which had to do with those indictments before the summer.? It appeared that my name came up a number of times in police/FBI wiretaps, and at that point, no one knew how 'involved' I was, or wasn't.? ? There was one tape (you can't believe the stupidity of these guys who were making calls like this from their home phones!!) where my name was mentioned because they were trying to get me to be the driver for the guys that were going to shoot four bullets through the door of the Soviet residence (remember that one?).? It turns out that they wanted to do it on Friday night, and I wouldn't go - because it was Shabbat; good thing, huh?? ? People within the JDL leadership (the "JDL 'Adults' that we, the active youth, detested, because we did it all, and they claimed the credit with their friends) came to the Bronx to visit with my parents (Of Blessed Memory), to tell them (no details given..) that they needed to warn me not to come back to the U.S.? When my mother pressed for details (her little boy had to be innocent, right?), they said that it seemed like I hadn't done anything, but that I was likely to be subpoenaed, and since I wouldn't testify against another Jew in court (in a case like this), I would wind up going to prison.? My poor mom was scared to death...and I never forgave the idiots who frightened her for no reason.? I came back, and as I explained before, I wasn't indicted....I came back to help lead the JDL, to help make a 'difference' (STILL working on that one), and to prepare for my own Aliyah - immigration to Israel (not going at that point was the single, biggest mistake of my life, with a ton of ramifications, which I am still dealing with today, right now, as I write this..) ? But there were far greater issues standing in the way of my 'making a difference' then the three guys who wound up going to prison.? JDL was an organization that was torn apart....Rav Kahane was in Israel, he wanted funds to run for the Kenneset (Israel's parliament), and for his organization there, 'Kach' ('Thus').? The JDL men and women here, wanted the old-fashioned JDL, that would protect cemetaries, run street patrols, and chase after old Nazi criminals in the U.S.??I will spare you from the politics, but there were splits, attempted coups, negative ads run by different factions in the "Jewish Press," Attempts to start the "New JDL," etc.? It was a disaster...the whole "activist world" had changed while we were in Israel that summer.? No JDL as we knew it, and Betar was focused on its summer camp for little kids... ? So, instead of leading anything, I tried to concentrate on finishing college, focused on learning Torah, and tried to find a Jewish organization that I could volunteer for; I tried several.? For that year (and the previous one), I also had to work part time to help support my parents, since my dad had been on disability.? I went back to those Shabbatonim (weekend events), using talks about the Russian trip as a springboard to talk about Jewish issues and particularly Aliyah (immigration to Israel).? Let me be clear at this point - EVERY Jew belongs in Israel, PERIOD!? There is no rationale that can excuse my failure (so far, at least!) to make my life in Israel, even though there were times I went there for job interviews, etc, but that's coming up a bit later...But remaining here - this has been hell, and I will never forgive myself for not only being here, but raising my daughters here, even though they seem to know exactly what they need to be doing with their lives at this point.....With G-d's help, maybe I'll at least have Israeli grandchildren...sighhhhhhh.? But this is a failure that haunts me every single day... ? I spent the following year after college learning two nights a week in a Yeshiva, and then the following year,? three full days/week, and working part time the other two days.? I also took the entire summer of 1978 to learn in a special program that was all day long, for seven weeks, ?for those who did not grow up going to Yeshivot (the plural of 'Yeshiva').? I went to evening lectures, every chance I got.?And there were plenty of them available.?New York was in the midst of a tremendous Jewish educational revolution, with Rav Avi Weiss, and Rav Shlomo Riskin, and others teaching and sharing Torah.? This was probably my first 'high point' in terms of Torah scholarship, I was now actually really into it.? And actually becoming pretty knowledgeable. ? I was in loose touch with Rav Kahane (he wasn't the kind of guy you just called up and shot the breeze with, if you know what I mean), and tried to be involved every time he wanted to try to start up a new organization, or new "front group."? But it seemed that activism as we knew it, was dead.? It was under his (and Rav Avi Weiss') pressure to get married, that I did - at a very young age; a very young 22 (I was a baby - I had never lived away from home).??There had been one girl on our Leadership program in Israel, and this was a sort of 'ideological match.'? I had rarely dated (I was busy trying to save the Jewish world, remember?)? and she was practically the first woman I ever went out with more then twice, who didn't break up with me (wow, that sounds truly pathetic, doesn't it?? Wow..).? What we felt about the 'ideology' and what we felt about Israel were what was important, or so it seemed.? Having other things in common never seemed to come up......and I thought if I didn't change for the worse, she wouldn't either BIG assumption).? We did wind up having?two wonderful girls......but that came a bit later...a silver lining in every cloud, I guess. ? ?I went to Israel in the summer of 1982 to interview for jobs - I had to go on Aliyah, and needed to work, right?? Previously, as an eager 19-20 year old, my job ambition was to be a hero in the Tzanchanim - the Israeli paratroopers.? It didn't dawn on me, that the recently diagnosed scoliosis (37 degree curve of my spine), and my flat feet would prevent me from getting into a combat unit in the Israeli army.? It didn't even penetrate my thick head when, after running the 1983 N.Y. Marathon (at a lean 164lbs.), I had constant knee pain, which lead me to have an arthroscopy.? The doctors showed me on the scope (I had insisted to be fully awake for the whole procedure - stupid, I know...) that my left patella (knee cap) had a crack that ran the entire length of it.? It was a squiggly line, and kind of looked like the Grateful Dead symbol.? Bizarre... ? The docs told me that with a cracked patella I should no longer cycle, running was out, and I had to avoid all 'trauma' to my knee, even playing volleyball!? I was composed, and I asked them, "Okay, I can do that, but for how long?? I need to be a paratrooper, and have to jump from airplanes."? The two docs looked at each other like I was a deranged alien, and said, "well, it's forever, and you have no problem with your knee jumping from a plane, you just can't land..."? SO much for a career in the Israeli Army.... ? I went to 7 interviews that summer in 1982, and my timing was awful - the War in Lebanon (Part I) had just broken out, and funds were being slashed for all academic related positions.? At this point, I already had an M.S. in Exercise Physiology, to go along with my BA in Physical Education.? I was SURE there had to be a job for me....I was positive, I needed to be in Israel, and that Israel needed new immigrants, etc.? But there wasn't...and not only that, every native Israeli (a "Sabra") that I spoke with thought I was NUTS for wanting to come to Israel under ANY circumstances, and I should stay in America, and get a Ph.D. in Exercise Physiology (hey, I didn't like it THAT much!).? It was very depressing, very discouraging, and I was barely earning a living in NYC, and was unable to save - which was obviously going to be important for Israel. ? The other people I met with, suggested I go back to school, or come to Israel and go to school, but no one had jobs....not in a sports medicine related field, or teaching physical education.? Israel had begun to absorb Soviet block immigrants, many who had Master of Sports credentials (or, were concert musicians, it seems..).? So, I came back to the U.S., and kind of aimlessly tried to think of saving for Aliyah, but I was earning a crisp $33,000/year, and had to buy a car just to get to work...money was flying out, faster then it was coming in....But, I figured I'd try again in two years; China had its 5 year plans, and Hanoch would have his?2 year plans! ? Well, 1984 came, and my world changed forever, and seemed to be falling apart.? Within a six month time period, I had three?car accidents driving to work (yeah, you don't want me driving the group down the Billy Graham Parkway in Charlotte..).? Within the midst of this, we had decided to have a baby.? We got official confirmation that we were indeed 'expecting' on the very same day that my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer.? Fortunately for dad, he didn't suffer much - he died within 50 days of diagnosis....He died?late on a Wednesday night, the night before my birthday, shortly before midnight.? He had been in bed with my mom, and told her he was sorry for being so much trouble, and that he loved her (my folks adored each other).? They kissed, he closed his eyes, and evidently died within moments.? I got the frantic call from my mom minutes later, that, "..I think daddy's dead..." and indeed he was....at age 64....We buried dad on Friday morning (it was too late to make arrangements for burial on Thursday), and we experienced a miscarriage that next Monday afternoon, at the start of what would have been the 4th month.....my whole world collapsed.....It was hard to think of Aliyah having just had a few months like that....hell, I could barely think straight....I turned back to studying Torah for solace... ????????? Hanoch ? ? Next Chapter: How I got to the UIWU, Ten Lost Tribes and the Har HaBayit - the Temple Mount.? Oh, and maybe about my girls, too!? :-)? ---------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007._______________________________________________ From dennyj at mac.com Sun Dec 2 09:07:59 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 09:07:59 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow In-Reply-To: References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <27D33433-BBC5-4482-B754-4C177D2B10C9@mac.com> Message-ID: <4B32E3F1-9E99-4623-A844-25A3D704D033@mac.com> Well said, James, You always have such a gracious way of expressing yourself. This is evidence of the Spirit of Yaweh in your heart and I feel is true of everyone that I have read in this dialogue. Our dialogue is, I think, an example of how the world should be. Respectful, supportive discourse. Regarding things political, I am so tired of the shrill voices that typically fill the airwaves and public forums, both liberal and conservative. My wife and I were talking about this just this past weekend. She mentioned the one man she respects and listens to regularly on the radio. He is a very respected Jewish man who's goal in this life is a very Jewish goal....to make this world a better place. Dennis Prager works tirelessly to bring clarity into discussion and build bridges between differing ideologies all based on Torah principles. Considering how little I know of you other than what I have read of your postings here and also reading your book, The Jesus Dynasty, I would have to make the same assumption about yourself. We are honored to have your participation in this dialogue. I'm sure you are a very busy man. We look forward to reading your insights and musings. Thanks for taking the time. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 8:36 AM, James Tabor wrote: > Dear Bonnie and all, > > Since you mentioned my name I thought I might offer a few thoughts. > I would say we are much more of a dialoguing association of > individuals than a "movement" per se, certainly in this new > discussion that Ross Nichols has set up, which has drawn in a much > wider group and I think is potentially open to anyone who is > sincerely seeking our Creator God and to walk in his/her Ways, and > wants to "dialogue" about "Roots of Faith" in a way respectful to > the views of others. So in that sense the "tent" is pretty big, > probably as wide as our respect for honest differences is. Since > Ross is the moderator, not me, and has invited "whosoever will" to > come and sit at this table, he will be the one to determine how the > parameters work out. I think the reason there is such a good spirit > of respect and harmony, even with differences, is that people > involved have walked on many of the same paths and had similar > experiences, even if ending up with different conclusions, plus > there is a basic unity in seeking the God of Abraham as revealed in > the Torah and Prophets. > > You should also not assume that our views of Israel and the current > situation in the land are uniform. I don't think I have expressed my > views on that subject but I do not share the view of those who > advocate violent slaughter or removal of the Arab population on the > West side of the Jordan, nor do I support the views of Rabbi Lerner, > particularly on the 1967 borders and the Palestinian State he > advocates. This is not to say one is opposed to the ethical > principles of peace, justice, and righteousness and the ideals of a > society built on biblical principles that he highlights. On the > other hand I have a strong view that those who do not live there > should not pass judgment from afar and that only those who have > thrown their lot in with the permanent inhabitants of the Land can > really view things from a perspective of being "inside" or part of > the solution. That said I should emphasize that I only speak for > myself here. I would be quite reluctant to engage in any kind of > extensive political discussion involving the current situation in > Israel in this kind of e-mail forum. I have known some in this group > for nearly twenty years and I think when it comes to politics, > domestic or Israeli, we are probably worlds apart from one another. > I think we can all agree on various ideals, but when it comes to the > matter of implementation in our flawed political world, most of us > are looking to a future spoken of by the Prophets, when YHVH himself > "returns," and the new Exodus spoken of by Jeremiah comes about, in > which YHVH gives us shepherds of his own choosing. I have focused my > own study and writings in this area on trying to understand and > expound those prophetic texts. The potential "fit" between the > future they envision and our present is always tenuous. In the > meantime each of us has to make our political and social choices in > our own communities and country. > > Warmest best, > > James > > On Dec 1, 2007, at 6:44 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: > >> Denny and John C, >> I think it is still too soon to say I am in this movement. I am >> actually still considering converting to Jewish, not Messianic >> Jewish, however, my Christian teacher says that I am moving in the >> right direction, after all Jesus was a Jew. I am still overwhelmed >> trying to figure out how "big tent" this movement is; there is so >> much to read, and it seems many different perspectives; yet >> everyone is respectful of everyone and I find that wonderful. If >> searching together for the truth by sharing w/o a requirement that >> everyone come to the same truth conclusions is the movement, then >> yes, I am in. However, if everyone has to be of the same belief >> for what needs to happen in the state of Israel today, then ... I >> am not moving in the same direction as James Tabor, but I would >> rather my Rabbi teacher explain why. I am a member of the Tikkun >> Community of Rabbi Lerner, an interfaith movement. www.tikun.org >> and currently reading his book, "HEALING ISRAEL/PALESTINE, A Path >> to Peace and Reconciliation" which is different from what Hanoch, >> James and Ross are saying ... so I am still wondering if I will be >> welcome in this dialogue because I really agree with Rabbi Lerner. >> I wish we could get them to dialogue with each other for us all to >> hear and maybe then we could really all come together to learn and >> work for God's mission ... a dream worth working for. >> Shalom, Bonnie >> >> On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: >> >>> Hi Bonnie, >>> >>> I have never been in your area. But I hear it is beautiful. >>> My email address is dennyj at mac.com. >>> That website is not associated with my son any longer. Aaron Eby >>> is the one responsible at this time. Aaron also writes for FFOZ http://www.ffoz.org >>> . >>> I think you would really like that site if you have never been >>> there. Our son attends Beth Immanuel http://www.bethimmanuel.org >>> where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches and leads. You surely have heard >>> of Daniel and his works. We have had him and his family in our >>> home a couple of times for Shabbat. Nice family. Good man. >>> >>> So, how did you get into this movement? >>> >>> Denny >>> >>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Denny, >>>> I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage >>>> Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the >>>> "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the possibility >>>> of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He has a great >>>> respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, not as a God >>>> or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I like what your >>>> son is doing and thank you for that website. Is it OK to pass it >>>> on? How do you get your email address to be in the From: whereas >>>> mine is only my name. My email address is >>>> b.nelson@ alaska.com >>>> Bonnie >>>> >>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Bonnie, >>>>> >>>>> We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful >>>>> day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. >>>>> What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan cruise >>>>> last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an the like. >>>>> Beautiful country. >>>>> Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My >>>>> wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of >>>>> our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and >>>>> even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. >>>>> You are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels >>>>> strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored >>>>> to some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural >>>>> shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. >>>>> Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your >>>>> in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the >>>>> same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that >>>>> seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know >>>>> as I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing >>>>> God is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike >>>>> trust. He is my Abba. >>>>> >>>>> So again, where in Alaska are you? >>>>> >>>>> Denny >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Denny, >>>>>> I really liked reading your email this morning and making me >>>>>> realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I >>>>>> am wondering where you live. I also related to what you said >>>>>> about deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me >>>>>> even though I have never been Christian. I like being >>>>>> unburdened and adrift, it's like we are trying to create our >>>>>> maps, but doing it collaboratively is way more rewarding than >>>>>> alone. >>>>>> Bonnie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Good morning all, >>>>>>> Shabbat Shalom! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our >>>>>>> grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. >>>>>>> It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. >>>>>>> Can you imagine the noise? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent >>>>>>> conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. >>>>>>> I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking >>>>>>> about and questioning him about where he is at now in his >>>>>>> journey. >>>>>>> Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our >>>>>>> family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to >>>>>>> go at this time. >>>>>>> He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath >>>>>>> fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret >>>>>>> Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) >>>>>>> They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main >>>>>>> group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed >>>>>>> into somewhat of a different character. >>>>>>> Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience >>>>>>> and now consider themselves more Noahide in their >>>>>>> understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. >>>>>>> We didn't really understand what happened, but after my >>>>>>> conversation with him last night, I think I have a better >>>>>>> idea. He started questioning the typical faith issues >>>>>>> regarding the trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his >>>>>>> quest for answers he went deep into textual criticism and was >>>>>>> at a place much like what you all have been sharing with me. >>>>>>> But he told me that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. >>>>>>> As he dug deeper into the same issues with the O.T. he ran >>>>>>> into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last >>>>>>> night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go >>>>>>> any further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to >>>>>>> believe in or teach my children". He knows enough now to >>>>>>> completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted to. He >>>>>>> doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God of >>>>>>> our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He >>>>>>> basically told me that i really don't want to go down this >>>>>>> road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and basically get >>>>>>> really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying >>>>>>> "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead of >>>>>>> me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the >>>>>>> wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the >>>>>>> moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your >>>>>>> postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. >>>>>>> And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I >>>>>>> am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My >>>>>>> fear is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know >>>>>>> truth if what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the >>>>>>> Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period >>>>>>> of my life as a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling >>>>>>> time. One thing that stand out to me know is not so much what >>>>>>> I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and >>>>>>> what I love about what I see in this group is the obvious >>>>>>> love, kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see here. >>>>>>> You all are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to >>>>>>> identify with you in any way because others might think that i >>>>>>> believe as you do and that would not be good. I proudly >>>>>>> identify with you because you are all good and humble people >>>>>>> who really do know how to live a life of love. Thank you for >>>>>>> your example. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with >>>>>>> Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming >>>>>>> today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm >>>>>>> of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all >>>>>>> the noise around here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blessings of Sabbath to you all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Denny >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/9c1ec754/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 09:23:10 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:23:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud Message-ID: Hi Roy, I don't believe it nullifies, replaces or should in any way be placed above G-d's Word. I truly believe it of utmost importance to diligently study T'NaKh, pray and actively listen for His guidance in all things. If we turn to something as the final word for every interpretation, can that not become an idol to us? Can it not divert our eyes from studying His Word and looking to Him to direct us? Should we not be looking forward to the day when Torah is written on our hearts (Jer:31:33, or 31:32 in the Hebrew Bible) ? I think I look at the words of Mishnah and Talmud as if I were reading any wise, Torah-observant person's opinion on specific matters. Their opinion may be venerated and wonderful, but I still weigh it in light of God's Word because He said that His Word is not too hard for us to understand: "...if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the L-RD thy G-d, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are WRITTEN (as opposed to orally spoken) in this book of the Tora, and if thou turn to the L-RD thy G-d with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very near to thee, in thy mouth, and IN THY HEART, that thou mayst do it." Deuteronomy 30: 10-14 There are even some interpretations in Mishnah and Talmud that I feel negate G-d's Word. >From what I have been able to glean from my own Rabbi, and subsequently from others, in the understanding of such "rulings," it is considered that those who sit in Moses' seat have been given authority even to change what God has said. I just have not been able to buy this. Perhaps I have misunderstood what they are saying, but I don't think so. Mishnah and Talmud are very good subjects for dialogue. I will be most interested in hearing other opinions. I hold some rather strong ones on this subject, but I want to correct any stakes I may have put into the ground that should be moved! Endeavoring to remain teachable, Pat From: tbear001 at bellsouth.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a PoleDate: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:59:10 -0600 I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud. I suppose I need to start. I have some questions you all may be able to help me with. I understand it is the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form? I have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah? Do you think the Talmud is really God?s words or tradition? Thanks Roy From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhydeSent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole Rick, Good question. - What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far. However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were ?The people? complained and God sent the serpent?s. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, ?and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live?. Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, ?and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 The word ? man - in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some. If we go back to the first of the chapter we see ?the people spoke against God, and against Moses?. I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. Rashi in the Chumash says, when the people spoke against God and Moses, ?they placed the servant on a par with his Master??? Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the church have done with Jesus? The Chumash goes on to say ? our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu. ? Jewish Encyclop. Shalom From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick GozhanskijSent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten?Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/c1bbd21b/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 10:54:42 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 11:54:42 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI Message-ID: Hanoch, I was behind on reading my emails, so just read IV, V, and VI. They weren't long enough! I felt like I was with you as you described events in your life. I was so caught up that when I finished V, there was a sudden feeling of emptiness. I want more! You write in a way that grabs your readers and takes them with you through all your experiences. I was in that Wadi. I was in that jail. I was in that hospital. I was standing beside the Rav, looking over at the Temple Mount, and listening to him speak. Thank you so much for this, Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.comDate: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 08:06:15 -0500To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI The Rav never asked us to do anything 'violent' - it's not 'smart' for people who are the 'public faces' of a movement or origination (those that are at demonstrations, those that do the public speaking, etc) to be the ones doing the series 'actions' - they are too visible to the authorities. You would have to be an unknown - someone who no one associates with a particular organization. But one time we were all (the whole group and the Rav) were standing on a roof of a building in the Old City, looking over on the Temple Mount (which the arabs defile daily, with their presence, their mules, their cats, etc. He glanced toward the gold colored dome, which is built over the Even HaShetiya (which we believe to be the very foundation stone of the Earth -where Avraham to Yitzhak, etc), and sighed, saying, "...what you could do with two shoulderheld missiles, right now......just two missles.........sighh...okay, but that's not what you're here for..." I've often reflected back on that moment and wondered what the exact meaning of those comments were. Although I think I knew very clearly what he meant.... Anytime spent with Rav Kahane was a chance to be in the presence of a very knowledgeable and proud Jewish leader. Well, I had been proud for a long time, but I knew that I needed a lot more 'formal' Jewish education, and committed myself to that, once I returned to the U.S. That, and helping to lead JDL. That magical summer was drawing to a close, and we were preparing to go back to the States, to be the young Jewish leaders that were going to lead a 'revolution' among American Jewry, and 'spread the word,' so to speak. A week before we were due to return to New York, I got a cryptic message that simply said, "Friends in New York think you should STAY in Israel." That's all....at least until I found out the background, which had to do with those indictments before the summer. It appeared that my name came up a number of times in police/FBI wiretaps, and at that point, no one knew how 'involved' I was, or wasn't. There was one tape (you can't believe the stupidity of these guys who were making calls like this from their home phones!!) where my name was mentioned because they were trying to get me to be the driver for the guys that were going to shoot four bullets through the door of the Soviet residence (remember that one?). It turns out that they wanted to do it on Friday night, and I wouldn't go - because it was Shabbat; good thing, huh? People within the JDL leadership (the "JDL 'Adults' that we, the active youth, detested, because we did it all, and they claimed the credit with their friends) came to the Bronx to visit with my parents (Of Blessed Memory), to tell them (no details given..) that they needed to warn me not to come back to the U.S. When my mother pressed for details (her little boy had to be innocent, right?), they said that it seemed like I hadn't done anything, but that I was likely to be subpoenaed, and since I wouldn't testify against another Jew in court (in a case like this), I would wind up going to prison. My poor mom was scared to death...and I never forgave the idiots who frightened her for no reason. I came back, and as I explained before, I wasn't indicted....I came back to help lead the JDL, to help make a 'difference' (STILL working on that one), and to prepare for my own Aliyah - immigration to Israel (not going at that point was the single, biggest mistake of my life, with a ton of ramifications, which I am still dealing with today, right now, as I write this..) But there were far greater issues standing in the way of my 'making a difference' then the three guys who wound up going to prison. JDL was an organization that was torn apart....Rav Kahane was in Israel, he wanted funds to run for the Kenneset (Israel's parliament), and for his organization there, 'Kach' ('Thus'). The JDL men and women here, wanted the old-fashioned JDL, that would protect cemetaries, run street patrols, and chase after old Nazi criminals in the U.S. I will spare you from the politics, but there were splits, attempted coups, negative ads run by different factions in the "Jewish Press," Attempts to start the "New JDL," etc. It was a disaster...the whole "activist world" had changed while we were in Israel that summer. No JDL as we knew it, and Betar was focused on its summer camp for little kids... So, instead of leading anything, I tried to concentrate on finishing college, focused on learning Torah, and tried to find a Jewish organization that I could volunteer for; I tried several. For that year (and the previous one), I also had to work part time to help support my parents, since my dad had been on disability. I went back to those Shabbatonim (weekend events), using talks about the Russian trip as a springboard to talk about Jewish issues and particularly Aliyah (immigration to Israel). Let me be clear at this point - EVERY Jew belongs in Israel, PERIOD! There is no rationale that can excuse my failure (so far, at least!) to make my life in Israel, even though there were times I went there for job interviews, etc, but that's coming up a bit later...But remaining here - this has been hell, and I will never forgive myself for not only being here, but raising my daughters here, even though they seem to know exactly what they need to be doing with their lives at this point.....With G-d's help, maybe I'll at least have Israeli grandchildren...sighhhhhhh. But this is a failure that haunts me every single day... I spent the following year after college learning two nights a week in a Yeshiva, and then the following year, three full days/week, and working part time the other two days. I also took the entire summer of 1978 to learn in a special program that was all day long, for seven weeks, for those who did not grow up going to Yeshivot (the plural of 'Yeshiva'). I went to evening lectures, every chance I got. And there were plenty of them available. New York was in the midst of a tremendous Jewish educational revolution, with Rav Avi Weiss, and Rav Shlomo Riskin, and others teaching and sharing Torah. This was probably my first 'high point' in terms of Torah scholarship, I was now actually really into it. And actually becoming pretty knowledgeable. I was in loose touch with Rav Kahane (he wasn't the kind of guy you just called up and shot the breeze with, if you know what I mean), and tried to be involved every time he wanted to try to start up a new organization, or new "front group." But it seemed that activism as we knew it, was dead. It was under his (and Rav Avi Weiss') pressure to get married, that I did - at a very young age; a very young 22 (I was a baby - I had never lived away from home). There had been one girl on our Leadership program in Israel, and this was a sort of 'ideological match.' I had rarely dated (I was busy trying to save the Jewish world, remember?) and she was practically the first woman I ever went out with more then twice, who didn't break up with me (wow, that sounds truly pathetic, doesn't it? Wow..). What we felt about the 'ideology' and what we felt about Israel were what was important, or so it seemed. Having other things in common never seemed to come up......and I thought if I didn't change for the worse, she wouldn't either BIG assumption). We did wind up having two wonderful girls......but that came a bit later...a silver lining in every cloud, I guess. I went to Israel in the summer of 1982 to interview for jobs - I had to go on Aliyah, and needed to work, right? Previously, as an eager 19-20 year old, my job ambition was to be a hero in the Tzanchanim - the Israeli paratroopers. It didn't dawn on me, that the recently diagnosed scoliosis (37 degree curve of my spine), and my flat feet would prevent me from getting into a combat unit in the Israeli army. It didn't even penetrate my thick head when, after running the 1983 N.Y. Marathon (at a lean 164lbs.), I had constant knee pain, which lead me to have an arthroscopy. The doctors showed me on the scope (I had insisted to be fully awake for the whole procedure - stupid, I know...) that my left patella (knee cap) had a crack that ran the entire length of it. It was a squiggly line, and kind of looked like the Grateful Dead symbol. Bizarre... The docs told me that with a cracked patella I should no longer cycle, running was out, and I had to avoid all 'trauma' to my knee, even playing volleyball! I was composed, and I asked them, "Okay, I can do that, but for how long? I need to be a paratrooper, and have to jump from airplanes." The two docs looked at each other like I was a deranged alien, and said, "well, it's forever, and you have no problem with your knee jumping from a plane, you just can't land..." SO much for a career in the Israeli Army.... I went to 7 interviews that summer in 1982, and my timing was awful - the War in Lebanon (Part I) had just broken out, and funds were being slashed for all academic related positions. At this point, I already had an M.S. in Exercise Physiology, to go along with my BA in Physical Education. I was SURE there had to be a job for me....I was positive, I needed to be in Israel, and that Israel needed new immigrants, etc. But there wasn't...and not only that, every native Israeli (a "Sabra") that I spoke with thought I was NUTS for wanting to come to Israel under ANY circumstances, and I should stay in America, and get a Ph.D. in Exercise Physiology (hey, I didn't like it THAT much!). It was very depressing, very discouraging, and I was barely earning a living in NYC, and was unable to save - which was obviously going to be important for Israel. The other people I met with, suggested I go back to school, or come to Israel and go to school, but no one had jobs....not in a sports medicine related field, or teaching physical education. Israel had begun to absorb Soviet block immigrants, many who had Master of Sports credentials (or, were concert musicians, it seems..). So, I came back to the U.S., and kind of aimlessly tried to think of saving for Aliyah, but I was earning a crisp $33,000/year, and had to buy a car just to get to work...money was flying out, faster then it was coming in....But, I figured I'd try again in two years; China had its 5 year plans, and Hanoch would have his 2 year plans! Well, 1984 came, and my world changed forever, and seemed to be falling apart. Within a six month time period, I had three car accidents driving to work (yeah, you don't want me driving the group down the Billy Graham Parkway in Charlotte..). Within the midst of this, we had decided to have a baby. We got official confirmation that we were indeed 'expecting' on the very same day that my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer. Fortunately for dad, he didn't suffer much - he died within 50 days of diagnosis....He died late on a Wednesday night, the night before my birthday, shortly before midnight. He had been in bed with my mom, and told her he was sorry for being so much trouble, and that he loved her (my folks adored each other). They kissed, he closed his eyes, and evidently died within moments. I got the frantic call from my mom minutes later, that, "..I think daddy's dead..." and indeed he was....at age 64....We buried dad on Friday morning (it was too late to make arrangements for burial on Thursday), and we experienced a miscarriage that next Monday afternoon, at the start of what would have been the 4th month.....my whole world collapsed.....It was hard to think of Aliyah having just had a few months like that....hell, I could barely think straight....I turned back to studying Torah for solace... Hanoch Next Chapter: How I got to the UIWU, Ten Lost Tribes and the Har HaBayit - the Temple Mount. Oh, and maybe about my girls, too! :-) Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/63efdd88/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Dec 2 12:07:11 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:07:11 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI In-Reply-To: <960266.58188.qm@web57103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA03254BC2AAC1-D08-5837@webmail-db11.sysops.aol.com> Boker tov Tammy! ???? Once again I thank you for the very kind remarks?about my notes, which indeed are turning into another "War and Peace it seems...but I've already promised Betty that I'll stop apologizing for the length of these posts, so I won't mention that again, ha, ha!! ??? For reasons that are very personal and deeply emotional, this has actually been a very, very helpful, cathartic experience for me.? I don't know if I'll ever have the chance to meet you and all these lovely people from this list, but at least this has given me a chance to share a bit of who I am...and it's my experiences that have made?me who I am today....for better, or for worse. ??? Although the next chapters are much less interesting, we are getting closer to how I, a "nice Jewish boy from the Bronx," has wound up on this list, which largely wrestles with issues from the New Testament and Jesus/Yeshua.??A?more interesting discussion would probably involve sharing how I came to feel like a brother to Ross....but let's save that for another day.??? :-)? Shalom y'all! ???? B'Ahavat Yisrael, ?????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tammy & Bruce Croley To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 9:30 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI Good Morning Hanoch, ?? Another wonderfully written installment!!? It is truly hard to believe all that you have experienced.? I can't wait for part VII.? Hope to hear from you soon. Shalom, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: The Rav never asked us to do anything 'violent' - it's not 'smart' for, ?people who are the 'public faces' of a movement or origination (those that are at demonstrations, those that do the public speaking, etc) to be the ones doing the series 'actions' - they are too visible to the authorities.? You would have to be an unknown - someone who no one associates with a particular organization.? But one time we were all (the whole group and the Rav) were standing on a roof of? a building in the Old City, looking over on the Temple Mount (which the arabs defile daily, with their presence, their mules, their cats, etc.?? He glanced toward the gold colored dome, which is built over?the Even HaShetiya?(which we believe to be the very foundation stone of the Earth -where Avraham to Yitzhak, etc), and sighed, saying, "...what you could do with two shoulderheld missiles, right now......just two missles.........sighh...okay, but that's not what you're here for..."? I've often reflected back on that moment and wondered what the exact meaning of those comments were.? Although I think I knew very clearly what he meant.... ? Anytime spent with Rav Kahane was a chance to be in the presence of a very knowledgeable and proud Jewish leader.? Well, I had been proud for a long time, but I knew that I needed a lot more 'formal' Jewish education,?and committed myself to that, once I returned to the U.S.? That, and helping to lead JDL. ? That magical summer was drawing to a close, and we were preparing to go back to the States, to be the young Jewish leaders that were going to lead a 'revolution' among American Jewry, and 'spread the word,' so to speak.? A week before we were due to return to New York, I got a cryptic message that simply said, "Friends in New York think you should STAY in Israel."? That's all....at least until I found out the background, which had to do with those indictments before the summer.? It appeared that my name came up a number of times in police/FBI wiretaps, and at that point, no one knew how 'involved' I was, or wasn't.? ? There was one tape (you can't believe the stupidity of these guys who were making calls like this from their home phones!!) where my name was mentioned because they were trying to get me to be the driver for the guys that were going to shoot four bullets through the door of the Soviet residence (remember that one?).? It turns out that they wanted to do it on Friday night, and I wouldn't go - because it was Shabbat; good thing, huh?? ? People within the JDL leadership (the "JDL 'Adults' that we, the active youth, detested, because we did it all, and they claimed the credit with their friends) came to the Bronx to visit with my parents (Of Blessed Memory), to tell them (no details given..) that they needed to warn me not to come back to the U.S.? When my mother pressed for details (her little boy had to be innocent, right?), they said that it seemed like I hadn't done anything, but that I was likely to be subpoenaed, and since I wouldn't testify against another Jew in court (in a case like this), I would wind up going to prison.? My poor mom was scared to death...and I never forgave the idiots who frightened her for no reason.? I came back, and as I explained before, I wasn't indicted....I came back to help lead the JDL, to help make a 'difference' (STILL working on that one), and to prepare for my own Aliyah - immigration to Israel (not going at that point was the single, biggest mistake of my life, with a ton of ramifications, which I am still dealing with today, right now, as I write this..) ? But there were far greater issues standing in the way of my 'making a difference' then the three guys who wound up going to prison.? JDL was an organization that was torn apart....Rav Kahane was in Israel, he wanted funds to run for the Kenneset (Israel's parliament), and for his organization there, 'Kach' ('Thus').? The JDL men and women here, wanted the old-fashioned JDL, that would protect cemetaries, run street patrols, and chase after old Nazi criminals in the U.S.??I will spare you from the politics, but there were splits, attempted coups, negative ads run by different factions in the "Jewish Press," Attempts to start the "New JDL," etc.? It was a disaster...the whole "activist world" had changed while we were in Israel that summer.? No JDL as we knew it, and Betar was focused on its summer camp for little kids... ? So, instead of leading anything, I tried to concentrate on finishing college, focused on learning Torah, and tried to find a Jewish organization that I could volunteer for; I tried several.? For that year (and the previous one), I also had to work part time to help support my parents, since my dad had been on disability.? I went back to those Shabbatonim (weekend events), using talks about the Russian trip as a springboard to talk about Jewish issues and particularly Aliyah (immigration to Israel).? Let me be clear at this point - EVERY Jew belongs in Israel, PERIOD!? There is no rationale that can excuse my failure (so far, at least!) to make my life in Israel, even though there were times I went there for job interviews, etc, but that's coming up a bit later...But remaining here - this has been hell, and I will never forgive myself for not only being here, but raising my daughters here, even though they seem to know exactly what they need to be doing with their lives at this point.....With G-d's help, maybe I'll at least have Israeli grandchildren...sighhhhhhh.? But this is a failure that haunts me every single day... ? I spent the following year after college learning two nights a week in a Yeshiva, and then the following year,? three full days/week, and working part time the other two days.? I also took the entire summer of 1978 to learn in a special program that was all day long, for seven weeks, ?for those who did not grow up going to Yeshivot (the plural of 'Yeshiva').? I went to evening lectures, every chance I got.?And there were plenty of them available.?New York was in the midst of a tremendous Jewish educational revolution, with Rav Avi Weiss, and Rav Shlomo Riskin, and others teaching and sharing Torah.? This was probably my first 'high point' in terms of Torah scholarship, I was now actually really into it.? And actually becoming pretty knowledgeable. ? I was in loose touch with Rav Kahane (he wasn't the kind of guy you just called up and shot the breeze with, if you know what I mean), and tried to be involved every time he wanted to try to start up a new organization, or new "front group."? But it seemed that activism as we knew it, was dead.? It was under his (and Rav Avi Weiss') pressure to get married, that I did - at a very young age; a very young 22 (I was a baby - I had never lived away from home).??There had been one girl on our Leadership program in Israel, and this was a sort of 'ideological match.'? I had rarely dated (I was busy trying to save the Jewish world, remember?)? and she was practically the first woman I ever went out with more then twice, who didn't break up with me (wow, that sounds truly pathetic, doesn't it?? Wow..).? What we felt about the 'ideology' and what we felt about Israel were what was important, or so it seemed.? Having other things in common never seemed to come up......and I thought if I didn't change for the worse, she wouldn't either BIG assumption).? We did wind up having?two wonderful girls......but that came a bit later...a silver lining in every cloud, I guess. ? ?I went to Israel in the summer of 1982 to interview for jobs - I had to go on Aliyah, and needed to work, right?? Previously, as an eager 19-20 year old, my job ambition was to be a hero in the Tzanchanim - the Israeli paratroopers.? It didn't dawn on me, that the recently diagnosed scoliosis (37 degree curve of my spine), and my flat feet would prevent me from getting into a combat unit in the Israeli army.? It didn't even penetrate my thick head when, after running the 1983 N.Y. Marathon (at a lean 164lbs.), I had constant knee pain, which lead me to have an arthroscopy.? The doctors showed me on the scope (I had insisted to be fully awake for the whole procedure - stupid, I know...) that my left patella (knee cap) had a crack that ran the entire length of it.? It was a squiggly line, and kind of looked like the Grateful Dead symbol.? Bizarre... ? The docs told me that with a cracked patella I should no longer cycle, running was out, and I had to avoid all 'trauma' to my knee, even playing volleyball!? I was composed, and I asked them, "Okay, I can do that, but for how long?? I need to be a paratrooper, and have to jump from airplanes."? The two docs looked at each other like I was a deranged alien, and said, "well, it's forever, and you have no problem with your knee jumping from a plane, you just can't land..."? SO much for a career in the Israeli Army.... ? I went to 7 interviews that summer in 1982, and my timing was awful - the War in Lebanon (Part I) had just broken out, and funds were being slashed for all academic related positions.? At this point, I already had an M.S. in Exercise Physiology, to go along with my BA in Physical Education.? I was SURE there had to be a job for me....I was positive, I needed to be in Israel, and that Israel needed new immigrants, etc.? But there wasn't...and not only that, every native Israeli (a "Sabra") that I spoke with thought I was NUTS for wanting to come to Israel under ANY circumstances, and I should stay in America, and get a Ph.D. in Exercise Physiology (hey, I didn't like it THAT much!).? It was very depressing, very discouraging, and I was barely earning a living in NYC, and was unable to save - which was obviously going to be important for Israel. ? The other people I met with, suggested I go back to school, or come to Israel and go to school, but no one had jobs....not in a sports medicine related field, or teaching physical education.? Israel had begun to absorb Soviet block immigrants, many who had Master of Sports credentials (or, were concert musicians, it seems..).? So, I came back to the U.S., and kind of aimlessly tried to think of saving for Aliyah, but I was earning a crisp $33,000/year, and had to buy a car just to get to work...money was flying out, faster then it was coming in....But, I figured I'd try again in two years; China had its 5 year plans, and Hanoch would have his?2 year plans! ? Well, 1984 came, and my world changed forever, and seemed to be falling apart.? Within a six month time period, I had three?car accidents driving to work (yeah, you don't want me driving the group down the Billy Graham Parkway in Charlotte..).? Within the midst of this, we had decided to have a baby.? We got official confirmation that we were indeed 'expecting' on the very same day that my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer.? Fortunately for dad, he didn't suffer much - he died within 50 days of diagnosis....He died?late on a Wednesday night, the night before my birthday, shortly before midnight.? He had been in bed with my mom, and told her he was sorry for being so much trouble, and that he loved her (my folks adored each other).? They kissed, he closed his eyes, and evidently died within moments.? I got the frantic call from my mom minutes later, that, "..I think daddy's dead..." and indeed he was....at age 64....We buried dad on Friday morning (it was too late to make arrangements for burial on Thursday), and we experienced a miscarriage that next Monday afternoon, at the start of what would have been the 4th month.....my whole world collapsed.....It was hard to think of Aliyah having just had a few months like that....hell, I could barely think straight....I turned back to studying Torah for solace... ????????? Hanoch ? ? Next Chapter: How I got to the UIWU, Ten Lost Tribes and the Har HaBayit - the Temple Mount.? Oh, and maybe about my girls, too!? :-)? Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/8a8c1095/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Dec 2 12:10:08 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:10:08 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI In-Reply-To: <292959367-1196608120-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1150346300-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <292959367-1196608120-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1150346300-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8CA0325B4EAB72B-D08-584D@webmail-db11.sysops.aol.com> Hey John - ??? A miniseries???You think so??? Maybe we could call it, "The YOUNG and the restless"?? :-) ??? Sorry for the poor humor (Hanoch YOUNG, get it?), but it's already been a very tough Sunday at work, and it's only 1:06!! ???? Greetings from snowy Brooklyn, ??????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:08 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI This could be a miniseries. Keep it coming Hanoch. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 08:06:15 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI The Rav never asked us to do anything 'violent' - it's not 'smart' for people who are the 'public faces' of a movement or origination (those that are at demonstrations, those that do the public speaking, etc) to be the ones doing the series 'actions' - they are too visible to the authorities.? You would have to be an unknown - someone who no one associates with a particular organization.? But one time we were all (the whole group and the Rav) were standing on a roof of? a building in the Old City, looking over on the Temple Mount (which the arabs defile daily, with their presence, their mules, their cats, etc.?? He glanced toward the gold colored dome, which is built over?the Even HaShetiya?(which we believe to be the very foundation stone of the Earth -where Avraham to Yitzhak, etc), and sighed, saying, "...what you could do with two shoulderheld missiles, right now......just two missles.........sighh...okay, but that's not what you're here for..."? I've often reflected back on that moment and wondered what the exact meaning of those comments were.? Although I think I knew very clearly what he meant.... ? Anytime spent with Rav Kahane was a chance to be in the presence of a very knowledgeable and proud Jewish leader.? Well, I had been proud for a long time, but I knew that I needed a lot more 'formal' Jewish education,?and committed myself to that, once I returned to the U.S.? That, and helping to lead JDL. ? That magical summer was drawing to a close, and we were preparing to go back to the States, to be the young Jewish leaders that were going to lead a 'revolution' among American Jewry, and 'spread the word,' so to speak.? A week before we were due to return to New York, I got a cryptic message that simply said, "Friends in New York think you should STAY in Israel."? That's all....at least until I found out the background, which had to do with those indictments before the summer.? It appeared that my name came up a number of times in police/FBI wiretaps, and at that point, no one knew how 'involved' I was, or wasn't.? ? There was one tape (you can't believe the stupidity of these guys who were making calls like this from their home phones!!) where my name was mentioned because they were trying to get me to be the driver for the guys that were going to shoot four bullets through the door of the Soviet residence (remember that one?).? It turns out that they wanted to do it on Friday night, and I wouldn't go - because it was Shabbat; good thing, huh?? ? People within the JDL leadership (the "JDL 'Adults' that we, the active youth, detested, because we did it all, and they claimed the credit with their friends) came to the Bronx to visit with my parents (Of Blessed Memory), to tell them (no details given..) that they needed to warn me not to come back to the U.S.? When my mother pressed for details (her little boy had to be innocent, right?), they said that it seemed like I hadn't done anything, but that I was likely to be subpoenaed, and since I wouldn't testify against another Jew in court (in a case like this), I would wind up going to prison.? My poor mom was scared to death...and I never forgave the idiots who frightened her for no reason.? I came back, and as I explained before, I wasn't indicted....I came back to help lead the JDL, to help make a 'difference' (STILL working on that one), and to prepare for my own Aliyah - immigration to Israel (not going at that point was the single, biggest mistake of my life, with a ton of ramifications, which I am still dealing with today, right now, as I write this..) ? But there were far greater issues standing in the way of my 'making a difference' then the three guys who wound up going to prison.? JDL was an organization that was torn apart....Rav Kahane was in Israel, he wanted funds to run for the Kenneset (Israel's parliament), and for his organization there, 'Kach' ('Thus').? The JDL men and women here, wanted the old-fashioned JDL, that would protect cemetaries, run street patrols, and chase after old Nazi criminals in the U.S.??I will spare you from the politics, but there were splits, attempted coups, negative ads run by different factions in the "Jewish Press," Attempts to start the "New JDL," etc.? It was a disaster...the whole "activist world" had changed while we were in Israel that summer.? No JDL as we knew it, and Betar was focused on its summer camp for little kids... ? So, instead of leading anything, I tried to concentrate on finishing college, focused on learning Torah, and tried to find a Jewish organization that I could volunteer for; I tried several.? For that year (and the previous one), I also had to work part time to help support my parents, since my dad had been on disability.? I went back to those Shabbatonim (weekend events), using talks about the Russian trip as a springboard to talk about Jewish issues and particularly Aliyah (immigration to Israel).? Let me be clear at this point - EVERY Jew belongs in Israel, PERIOD!? There is no rationale that can excuse my failure (so far, at least!) to make my life in Israel, even though there were times I went there for job interviews, etc, but that's coming up a bit later...But remaining here - this has been hell, and I will never forgive myself for not only being here, but raising my daughters here, even though they seem to know exactly what they need to be doing with their lives at this point.....With G-d's help, maybe I'll at least have Israeli grandchildren...sighhhhhhh.? But this is a failure that haunts me every single day... ? I spent the following year after college learning two nights a week in a Yeshiva, and then the following year,? three full days/week, and working part time the other two days.? I also took the entire summer of 1978 to learn in a special program that was all day long, for seven weeks, ?for those who did not grow up going to Yeshivot (the plural of 'Yeshiva').? I went to evening lectures, every chance I got.?And there were plenty of them available.?New York was in the midst of a tremendous Jewish educational revolution, with Rav Avi Weiss, and Rav Shlomo Riskin, and others teaching and sharing Torah.? This was probably my first 'high point' in terms of Torah scholarship, I was now actually really into it.? And actually becoming pretty knowledgeable. ? I was in loose touch with Rav Kahane (he wasn't the kind of guy you just called up and shot the breeze with, if you know what I mean), and tried to be involved every time he wanted to try to start up a new organization, or new "front group."? But it seemed that activism as we knew it, was dead.? It was under his (and Rav Avi Weiss') pressure to get married, that I did - at a very young age; a very young 22 (I was a baby - I had never lived away from home).??There had been one girl on our Leadership program in Israel, and this was a sort of 'ideological match.'? I had rarely dated (I was busy trying to save the Jewish world, remember?)? and she was practically the first woman I ever went out with more then twice, who didn't break up with me (wow, that sounds truly pathetic, doesn't it?? Wow..).? What we felt about the 'ideology' and what we felt about Israel were what was important, or so it seemed.? Having other things in common never seemed to come up......and I thought if I didn't change for the worse, she wouldn't either BIG assumption).? We did wind up having?two wonderful girls......but that came a bit later...a silver lining in every cloud, I guess. ? ?I went to Israel in the summer of 1982 to interview for jobs - I had to go on Aliyah, and needed to work, right?? Previously, as an eager 19-20 year old, my job ambition was to be a hero in the Tzanchanim - the Israeli paratroopers.? It didn't dawn on me, that the recently diagnosed scoliosis (37 degree curve of my spine), and my flat feet would prevent me from getting into a combat unit in the Israeli army.? It didn't even penetrate my thick head when, after running the 1983 N.Y. Marathon (at a lean 164lbs.), I had constant knee pain, which lead me to have an arthroscopy.? The doctors showed me on the scope (I had insisted to be fully awake for the whole procedure - stupid, I know...) that my left patella (knee cap) had a crack that ran the entire length of it.? It was a squiggly line, and kind of looked like the Grateful Dead symbol.? Bizarre... ? The docs told me that with a cracked patella I should no longer cycle, running was out, and I had to avoid all 'trauma' to my knee, even playing volleyball!? I was composed, and I asked them, "Okay, I can do that, but for how long?? I need to be a paratrooper, and have to jump from airplanes."? The two docs looked at each other like I was a deranged alien, and said, "well, it's forever, and you have no problem with your knee jumping from a plane, you just can't land..."? SO much for a career in the Israeli Army.... ? I went to 7 interviews that summer in 1982, and my timing was awful - the War in Lebanon (Part I) had just broken out, and funds were being slashed for all academic related positions.? At this point, I already had an M.S. in Exercise Physiology, to go along with my BA in Physical Education.? I was SURE there had to be a job for me....I was positive, I needed to be in Israel, and that Israel needed new immigrants, etc.? But there wasn't...and not only that, every native Israeli (a "Sabra") that I spoke with thought I was NUTS for wanting to come to Israel under ANY circumstances, and I should stay in America, and get a Ph.D. in Exercise Physiology (hey, I didn't like it THAT much!).? It was very depressing, very discouraging, and I was barely earning a living in NYC, and was unable to save - which was obviously going to be important for Israel. ? The other people I met with, suggested I go back to school, or come to Israel and go to school, but no one had jobs....not in a sports medicine related field, or teaching physical education.? Israel had begun to absorb Soviet block immigrants, many who had Master of Sports credentials (or, were concert musicians, it seems..).? So, I came back to the U.S., and kind of aimlessly tried to think of saving for Aliyah, but I was earning a crisp $33,000/year, and had to buy a car just to get to work...money was flying out, faster then it was coming in....But, I figured I'd try again in two years; China had its 5 year plans, and Hanoch would have his?2 year plans! ? Well, 1984 came, and my world changed forever, and seemed to be falling apart.? Within a six month time period, I had three?car accidents driving to work (yeah, you don't want me driving the group down the Billy Graham Parkway in Charlotte..).? Within the midst of this, we had decided to have a baby.? We got official confirmation that we were indeed 'expecting' on the very same day that my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer.? Fortunately for dad, he didn't suffer much - he died within 50 days of diagnosis....He died?late on a Wednesday night, the night before my birthday, shortly before midnight.? He had been in bed with my mom, and told her he was sorry for being so much trouble, and that he loved her (my folks adored each other).? They kissed, he closed his eyes, and evidently died within moments.? I got the frantic call from my mom minutes later, that, "..I think daddy's dead..." and indeed he was....at age 64....We buried dad on Friday morning (it was too late to make arrangements for burial on Thursday), and we experienced a miscarriage that next Monday afternoon, at the start of what would have been the 4th month.....my whole world collapsed.....It was hard to think of Aliyah having just had a few months like that....hell, I could barely think straight....I turned back to studying Torah for solace... ????????? Hanoch ? ? Next Chapter: How I got to the UIWU, Ten Lost Tribes and the Har HaBayit - the Temple Mount.? Oh, and maybe about my girls, too!? :-)? ---------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/9ce9220d/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Dec 2 12:13:56 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:13:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA03263D2B407B-D08-586C@webmail-db11.sysops.aol.com> ?Dear Pat, ???? Once again, you are WAY too kind....I am actually blushing as I reread your comments - toda.? I have left out SO many stories, so many vignettes...sighhhhh...maybe I'll throw them in later, in? non-chronological order, who knows?? ????? And no, it's me who needs to thank YOU, for your willingness to listen.... ????? B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland), ??????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 11:54 am Subject: RE: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI Hanoch, ? I was behind on reading my emails, so just read IV, V, and VI.? They weren't long enough!? I felt like I was with you as you described events in your life.? I was so caught up that when I finished V, there was a sudden feeling of emptiness.? I want more!? You write in a way that grabs your readers and takes them with you through all your experiences.? I was in that Wadi.? I was in that jail.? I was in that hospital.? I was standing beside the Rav, looking over at the Temple Mount, and listening to him speak. ? Thank you so much for this, ? Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 08:06:15 -0500 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI The Rav never asked us to do anything 'violent' - it's not 'smart' for people who are the 'public faces' of a movement or origination (those that are at demonstrations, those that do the public speaking, etc) to be the ones doing the series 'actions' - they are too visible to the authorities.? You would have to be an unknown - someone who no one associates with a particular organization.? But one time we were all (the whole group and the Rav) were standing on a roof of? a building in the Old City, looking over on the Temple Mount (which the arabs defile daily, with their presence, their mules, their cats, etc.?? He glanced toward the gold colored dome, which is built over?the Even HaShetiya?(which we believe to be the very foundation stone of the Earth -where Avraham to Yitzhak, etc), and sighed, saying, "...what you could do with two shoulderheld missiles, right now......just two missles.........sighh...okay, but that's not what you're here for..."? I've often reflected back on that moment and wondered what the exact meaning of those comments were.? Although I think I knew very clearly what he meant.... ? Anytime spent with Rav Kahane was a chance to be in the presence of a very knowledgeable and proud Jewish leader.? Well, I had been proud for a long time, but I knew that I needed a lot more 'formal' Jewish education,?and committed myself to that, once I returned to the U.S.? That, and helping to lead JDL. ? That magical summer was drawing to a close, and we were preparing to go back to the States, to be the young Jewish leaders that were going to lead a 'revolution' among American Jewry, and 'spread the word,' so to speak.? A week before we were due to return to New York, I got a cryptic message that simply said, "Friends in New York think you should STAY in Israel."? That's all....at least until I found out the background, which had to do with those indictments before the summer.? It appeared that my name came up a number of times in police/FBI wiretaps, and at that point, no one knew how 'involved' I was, or wasn't.? ? There was one tape (you can't believe the stupidity of these guys who were making calls like this from their home phones!!) where my name was mentioned because they were trying to get me to be the driver for the guys that were going to shoot four bullets through the door of the Soviet residence (remember that one?).? It turns out that they wanted to do it on Friday night, and I wouldn't go - because it was Shabbat; good thing, huh?? ? People within the JDL leadership (the "JDL 'Adults' that we, the active youth, detested, because we did it all, and they claimed the credit with their friends) came to the Bronx to visit with my parents (Of Blessed Memory), to tell them (no details given..) that they needed to warn me not to come back to the U.S.? When my mother pressed for details (her little boy had to be innocent, right?), they said that it seemed like I hadn't done anything, but that I was likely to be subpoenaed, and since I wouldn't testify against another Jew in court (in a case like this), I would wind up going to prison.? My poor mom was scared to death...and I never forgave the idiots who frightened her for no reason.? I came back, and as I explained before, I wasn't indicted....I came back to help lead the JDL, to help make a 'difference' (STILL working on that one), and to prepare for my own Aliyah - immigration to Israel (not going at that point was the single, biggest mistake of my life, with a ton of ramifications, which I am still dealing with today, right now, as I write this..) ? But there were far greater issues standing in the way of my 'making a difference' then the three guys who wound up going to prison.? JDL was an organization that was torn apart....Rav Kahane was in Israel, he wanted funds to run for the Kenneset (Israel's parliament), and for his organization there, 'Kach' ('Thus').? The JDL men and women here, wanted the old-fashioned JDL, that would protect cemetaries, run street patrols, and chase after old Nazi criminals in the U.S.??I will spare you from the politics, but there were splits, attempted coups, negative ads run by different factions in the "Jewish Press," Attempts to start the "New JDL," etc.? It was a disaster...the whole "activist world" had changed while we were in Israel that summer.? No JDL as we knew it, and Betar was focused on its summer camp for little kids... ? So, instead of leading anything, I tried to concentrate on finishing college, focused on learning Torah, and tried to find a Jewish organization that I could volunteer for; I tried several.? For that year (and the previous one), I also had to work part time to help support my parents, since my dad had been on disability.? I went back to those Shabbatonim (weekend events), using talks about the Russian trip as a springboard to talk about Jewish issues and particularly Aliyah (immigration to Israel).? Let me be clear at this point - EVERY Jew belongs in Israel, PERIOD!? There is no rationale that can excuse my failure (so far, at least!) to make my life in Israel, even though there were times I went there for job interviews, etc, but that's coming up a bit later...But remaining here - this has been hell, and I will never forgive myself for not only being here, but raising my daughters here, even though they seem to know exactly what they need to be doing with their lives at this point.....With G-d's help, maybe I'll at least have Israeli grandchildren...sighhhhhhh.? But this is a failure that haunts me every single day... ? I spent the following year after college learning two nights a week in a Yeshiva, and then the following year,? three full days/week, and working part time the other two days.? I also took the entire summer of 1978 to learn in a special program that was all day long, for seven weeks, ?for those who did not grow up going to Yeshivot (the plural of 'Yeshiva').? I went to evening lectures, every chance I got.?And there were plenty of them available.?New York was in the midst of a tremendous Jewish educational revolution, with Rav Avi Weiss, and Rav Shlomo Riskin, and others teaching and sharing Torah.? This was probably my first 'high point' in terms of Torah scholarship, I was now actually really into it.? And actually becoming pretty knowledgeable. ? I was in loose touch with Rav Kahane (he wasn't the kind of guy you just called up and shot the breeze with, if you know what I mean), and tried to be involved every time he wanted to try to start up a new organization, or new "front group."? But it seemed that activism as we knew it, was dead.? It was under his (and Rav Avi Weiss') pressure to get married, that I did - at a very young age; a very young 22 (I was a baby - I had never lived away from home).??There had been one girl on our Leadership program in Israel, and this was a sort of 'ideological match.'? I had rarely dated (I was busy trying to save the Jewish world, remember?)? and she was practically the first woman I ever went out with more then twice, who didn't break up with me (wow, that sounds truly pathetic, doesn't it?? Wow..).? What we felt about the 'ideology' and what we felt about Israel were what was important, or so it seemed.? Having other things in common never seemed to come up......and I thought if I didn't change for the worse, she wouldn't either BIG assumption).? We did wind up having?two wonderful girls......but that came a bit later...a silver lining in every cloud, I guess. ? ?I went to Israel in the summer of 1982 to interview for jobs - I had to go on Aliyah, and needed to work, right?? Previously, as an eager 19-20 year old, my job ambition was to be a hero in the Tzanchanim - the Israeli paratroopers.? It didn't dawn on me, that the recently diagnosed scoliosis (37 degree curve of my spine), and my flat feet would prevent me from getting into a combat unit in the Israeli army.? It didn't even penetrate my thick head when, after running the 1983 N.Y. Marathon (at a lean 164lbs.), I had constant knee pain, which lead me to have an arthroscopy.? The doctors showed me on the scope (I had insisted to be fully awake for the whole procedure - stupid, I know...) that my left patella (knee cap) had a crack that ran the entire length of it.? It was a squiggly line, and kind of looked like the Grateful Dead symbol.? Bizarre... ? The docs told me that with a cracked patella I should no longer cycle, running was out, and I had to avoid all 'trauma' to my knee, even playing volleyball!? I was composed, and I asked them, "Okay, I can do that, but for how long?? I need to be a paratrooper, and have to jump from airplanes."? The two docs looked at each other like I was a deranged alien, and said, "well, it's forever, and you have no problem with your knee jumping from a plane, you just can't land..."? SO much for a career in the Israeli Army.... ? I went to 7 interviews that summer in 1982, and my timing was awful - the War in Lebanon (Part I) had just broken out, and funds were being slashed for all academic related positions.? At this point, I already had an M.S. in Exercise Physiology, to go along with my BA in Physical Education.? I was SURE there had to be a job for me....I was positive, I needed to be in Israel, and that Israel needed new immigrants, etc.? But there wasn't...and not only that, every native Israeli (a "Sabra") that I spoke with thought I was NUTS for wanting to come to Israel under ANY circumstances, and I should stay in America, and get a Ph.D. in Exercise Physiology (hey, I didn't like it THAT much!).? It was very depressing, very discouraging, and I was barely earning a living in NYC, and was unable to save - which was obviously going to be important for Israel. ? The other people I met with, suggested I go back to school, or come to Israel and go to school, but no one had jobs....not in a sports medicine related field, or teaching physical education.? Israel had begun to absorb Soviet block immigrants, many who had Master of Sports credentials (or, were concert musicians, it seems..).? So, I came back to the U.S., and kind of aimlessly tried to think of saving for Aliyah, but I was earning a crisp $33,000/year, and had to buy a car just to get to work...money was flying out, faster then it was coming in....But, I figured I'd try again in two years; China had its 5 year plans, and Hanoch would have his?2 year plans! ? Well, 1984 came, and my world changed forever, and seemed to be falling apart.? Within a six month time period, I had three?car accidents driving to work (yeah, you don't want me driving the group down the Billy Graham Parkway in Charlotte..).? Within the midst of this, we had decided to have a baby.? We got official confirmation that we were indeed 'expecting' on the very same day that my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer.? Fortunately for dad, he didn't suffer much - he died within 50 days of diagnosis....He died?late on a Wednesday night, the night before my birthday, shortly before midnight.? He had been in bed with my mom, and told her he was sorry for being so much trouble, and that he loved her (my folks adored each other).? They kissed, he closed his eyes, and evidently died within moments.? I got the frantic call from my mom minutes later, that, "..I think daddy's dead..." and indeed he was....at age 64....We buried dad on Friday morning (it was too late to make arrangements for burial on Thursday), and we experienced a miscarriage that next Monday afternoon, at the start of what would have been the 4th month.....my whole world collapsed.....It was hard to think of Aliyah having just had a few months like that....hell, I could barely think straight....I turned back to studying Torah for solace... ????????? Hanoch ? ? Next Chapter: How I got to the UIWU, Ten Lost Tribes and the Har HaBayit - the Temple Mount.? Oh, and maybe about my girls, too!? :-)? Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. = _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/d6007a5f/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Sun Dec 2 14:47:53 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:47:53 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow In-Reply-To: References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <27D33433-BBC5-4482-B754-4C177D2B10C9@mac.com> Message-ID: <23784E2B-2206-4582-8F13-473C7D23536A@alaska.com> > James, > Thank you for your response here as well as the depth of > historical and archaeological information that you have on the > web. I plan to buy your book "The Jesus Dynasty." I hope I am not > a minority of one in this dialogue, who supports the position of > Rabbi Lerner. I feel that to get to the truth we need to > thoroughly understand a variety of opinions about these critical > issues both American and Israeli, Christian, Jewish and Muslim, > keeping in mind that there is great diversity within each of these > categories. And I hope others will check out Rabbi Lerner's > ideology and his website and his book. www.tikun.org "HEALING > ISRAEL/PALESTINE, A Path to Peace and Reconciliation" >> I think that one good thing that has already come from the >> Annapolis Summit is their agreement to talk every 2 weeks. Rabbi >> Lerner talks about Annapolis on his website. I agree with you that >> this format would not be a proper format for an extensive >> political debate, but I also agree with John C. that it would be >> good to know the various positions. Maybe there will be another >> format. Meanwhile I am praying that this President and Condoliza >> Rice will succeed in their effort to bring a peaceful settlement >> that respects the human rights of all. Bonnie >> >> On Dec 2, 2007, at 5:36 AM, James Tabor wrote: > Dear Bonnie and all, > > Since you mentioned my name I thought I might offer a few thoughts. > I would say we are much more of a dialoguing association of > individuals than a "movement" per se, certainly in this new > discussion that Ross Nichols has set up, which has drawn in a much > wider group and I think is potentially open to anyone who is > sincerely seeking our Creator God and to walk in his/her Ways, and > wants to "dialogue" about "Roots of Faith" in a way respectful to > the views of others. So in that sense the "tent" is pretty big, > probably as wide as our respect for honest differences is. Since > Ross is the moderator, not me, and has invited "whosoever will" to > come and sit at this table, he will be the one to determine how the > parameters work out. I think the reason there is such a good spirit > of respect and harmony, even with differences, is that people > involved have walked on many of the same paths and had similar > experiences, even if ending up with different conclusions, plus > there is a basic unity in seeking the God of Abraham as revealed in > the Torah and Prophets. > > You should also not assume that our views of Israel and the current > situation in the land are uniform. I don't think I have expressed > my views on that subject but I do not share the view of those who > advocate violent slaughter or removal of the Arab population on the > West side of the Jordan, nor do I support the views of Rabbi > Lerner, particularly on the 1967 borders and the Palestinian State > he advocates. This is not to say one is opposed to the ethical > principles of peace, justice, and righteousness and the ideals of a > society built on biblical principles that he highlights. On the > other hand I have a strong view that those who do not live there > should not pass judgment from afar and that only those who have > thrown their lot in with the permanent inhabitants of the Land can > really view things from a perspective of being "inside" or part of > the solution. That said I should emphasize that I only speak for > myself here. I would be quite reluctant to engage in any kind of > extensive political discussion involving the current situation in > Israel in this kind of e-mail forum. I have known some in this > group for nearly twenty years and I think when it comes to > politics, domestic or Israeli, we are probably worlds apart from > one another. I think we can all agree on various ideals, but when > it comes to the matter of implementation in our flawed political > world, most of us are looking to a future spoken of by the > Prophets, when YHVH himself "returns," and the new Exodus spoken of > by Jeremiah comes about, in which YHVH gives us shepherds of his > own choosing. I have focused my own study and writings in this area > on trying to understand and expound those prophetic texts. The > potential "fit" between the future they envision and our present is > always tenuous. In the meantime each of us has to make our > political and social choices in our own communities and country. > > Warmest best, > > James > > On Dec 1, 2007, at 6:44 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: > >> Denny and John C, >> I think it is still too soon to say I am in this movement. I am >> actually still considering converting to Jewish, not Messianic >> Jewish, however, my Christian teacher says that I am moving in the >> right direction, after all Jesus was a Jew. I am still overwhelmed >> trying to figure out how "big tent" this movement is; there is so >> much to read, and it seems many different perspectives; yet >> everyone is respectful of everyone and I find that wonderful. If >> searching together for the truth by sharing w/o a requirement that >> everyone come to the same truth conclusions is the movement, then >> yes, I am in. However, if everyone has to be of the same belief >> for what needs to happen in the state of Israel today, then ... I >> am not moving in the same direction as James Tabor, but I would >> rather my Rabbi teacher explain why. I am a member of the Tikkun >> Community of Rabbi Lerner, an interfaith movement. www.tikun.org >> and currently reading his book, "HEALING ISRAEL/PALESTINE, A Path >> to Peace and Reconciliation" which is different from what Hanoch, >> James and Ross are saying ... so I am still wondering if I will be >> welcome in this dialogue because I really agree with Rabbi Lerner. >> I wish we could get them to dialogue with each other for us all to >> hear and maybe then we could really all come together to learn and >> work for God's mission ... a dream worth working for. >> Shalom, Bonnie >> >> On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: >> >>> Hi Bonnie, >>> >>> I have never been in your area. But I hear it is beautiful. >>> My email address is dennyj at mac.com. >>> That website is not associated with my son any longer. Aaron Eby >>> is the one responsible at this time. Aaron also writes for FFOZ >>> http://www.ffoz.org . >>> I think you would really like that site if you have never been >>> there. Our son attends Beth Immanuel http://www.bethimmanuel.org >>> where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches and leads. You surely have >>> heard of Daniel and his works. We have had him and his family in >>> our home a couple of times for Shabbat. Nice family. Good man. >>> >>> So, how did you get into this movement? >>> >>> Denny >>> >>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Denny, >>>> I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage >>>> Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the >>>> "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the >>>> possibility of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He >>>> has a great respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, >>>> not as a God or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I >>>> like what your son is doing and thank you for that website. Is >>>> it OK to pass it on? How do you get your email address to be in >>>> the From: whereas mine is only my name. My email address is >>>> b.nelson@ alaska.com >>>> Bonnie >>>> >>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Bonnie, >>>>> >>>>> We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful >>>>> day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. >>>>> What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan >>>>> cruise last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an >>>>> the like. Beautiful country. >>>>> Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My >>>>> wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of >>>>> our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and >>>>> even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. >>>>> You are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels >>>>> strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored >>>>> to some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural >>>>> shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. >>>>> Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your >>>>> in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the >>>>> same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that >>>>> seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know >>>>> as I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing >>>>> God is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike >>>>> trust. He is my Abba. >>>>> >>>>> So again, where in Alaska are you? >>>>> >>>>> Denny >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Denny, >>>>>> I really liked reading your email this morning and making me >>>>>> realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I >>>>>> am wondering where you live. I also related to what you said >>>>>> about deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me >>>>>> even though I have never been Christian. I like being >>>>>> unburdened and adrift, it's like we are trying to create our >>>>>> maps, but doing it collaboratively is way more rewarding than >>>>>> alone. >>>>>> Bonnie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Good morning all, >>>>>>> Shabbat Shalom! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our >>>>>>> grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. >>>>>>> It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. >>>>>>> Can you imagine the noise? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent >>>>>>> conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. >>>>>>> I was sharing with him some of the things I have been >>>>>>> thinking about and questioning him about where he is at now >>>>>>> in his journey. >>>>>>> Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our >>>>>>> family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to >>>>>>> go at this time. >>>>>>> He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath >>>>>>> fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret >>>>>>> Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) >>>>>>> They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main >>>>>>> group has since disbanded and now I see that they have >>>>>>> morphed into somewhat of a different character. >>>>>>> Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience >>>>>>> and now consider themselves more Noahide in their >>>>>>> understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. >>>>>>> We didn't really understand what happened, but after my >>>>>>> conversation with him last night, I think I have a better >>>>>>> idea. He started questioning the typical faith issues >>>>>>> regarding the trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his >>>>>>> quest for answers he went deep into textual criticism and was >>>>>>> at a place much like what you all have been sharing with me. >>>>>>> But he told me that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. >>>>>>> As he dug deeper into the same issues with the O.T. he ran >>>>>>> into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last >>>>>>> night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go >>>>>>> any further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to >>>>>>> believe in or teach my children". He knows enough now to >>>>>>> completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted to. He >>>>>>> doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God of >>>>>>> our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He >>>>>>> basically told me that i really don't want to go down this >>>>>>> road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and basically get >>>>>>> really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying >>>>>>> "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead >>>>>>> of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on >>>>>>> the wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am >>>>>>> at the moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write >>>>>>> on me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your >>>>>>> postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other >>>>>>> ideas. And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this >>>>>>> path. I am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship >>>>>>> with God. My fear is that it is not based on truth. And how >>>>>>> can I know truth if what I have to base it on is not >>>>>>> reliable, namely the Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I would >>>>>>> describe this period of my life as a deconstruction period. >>>>>>> It is a very unsettling time. One thing that stand out to me >>>>>>> know is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What >>>>>>> draws me to Roots of Faith and what I love about what I see >>>>>>> in this group is the obvious love, kindness and unity and >>>>>>> love of Hashem that I see here. You all are awesome! The >>>>>>> Christian way would tell me not to identify with you in any >>>>>>> way because others might think that i believe as you do and >>>>>>> that would not be good. I proudly identify with you because >>>>>>> you are all good and humble people who really do know how to >>>>>>> live a life of love. Thank you for your example. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with >>>>>>> Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming >>>>>>> today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter >>>>>>> storm of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with >>>>>>> all the noise around here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blessings of Sabbath to you all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Denny >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/bdd01a5f/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Sun Dec 2 14:49:07 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:49:07 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now References: <006001c83520$e391fc00$c701000a@RabbiGershon> Message-ID: <4865A96D-64D4-44EF-8AFB-2DE61C7DF9FF@alaska.com> >> 22 Kislev 5768; December 2, 2007 >> >> Hanukah begins this Tuesday night. >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Hanuka, The Real Story, Then and Now >> By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 1994-2007 by Ariel Bar >> Tzadok. All >> rights reserved. >> >> >> >> Let me begin by setting the record straight. Hanukah is a >> celebration of >> victory in war. The miracle of Hanukah was that the few defeated >> the many in >> battle. Many today erroneously believe that the primary miracle of >> Hanukah >> was the miracle of a one-day supply of oil for the menorah staying >> lit eight >> days. Yet, in the additional prayer about Hanukah inserted into the >> daily >> Amidah prayer no mention of this miracle occurs. Indeed, the >> prayer of >> thanksgiving that we recite for Hanukah is one of victory at war, >> not one of >> a miracle of lights. In essence, Hanukah is a holiday celebrating a >> Jewish >> religious military victory over the forces of ancient secularism >> (Hellenism). >> >> In accordance to American style commercialization, Hanukah has become >> secularized and observed as somewhat a "Jewish" Christmas. Its true >> meaning >> has become lost in history. Secular Jews mostly believe that >> Hanukah is all >> about dreidels and latkis (potato pancakes) and celebrate it for its >> cultural value, without any real knowledge of what really happened, >> or its >> spiritual significance. Before we move along to discuss what really >> happened, let us remember that while the two holidays have very >> different >> meanings, historically, they are in a fact connected. >> >> It is no coincidence that Hanukah falls on the 25th day of Kislev >> and that >> the other (pagan/Christian) holiday falls on the 25th day of >> December. >> According to the Sefer HaMacabim (I Macabees 1:59), the Greeks >> decided to >> profane the holy Temple in Yerushalayim specifically on the 25th >> day of that >> month, because that day was their pagan holiday Saturnalia, >> honoring the >> winter solstice. Their holiday celebrated the lengthening of the >> winter >> days. They called their holiday the "birthday" of the sun. >> Hundreds of years later when the pagan Roman/Greek ceremonies were >> adopted >> by Christianity, the winter "birthday" of the sun, became the >> "birthday" of >> the new "son." >> Thus many Christmas pagan rituals were born. I am only briefly >> describing >> the Saturnalia as it applies here. More information about it is >> readily >> available online. >> Mind you, information about the pagan origins of the Christmas >> celebrations >> did not originate with Jewish authors. There are many Christian >> groups of >> different denominations that are aware of the true history of the >> Christmas >> holiday. One can easily do a web search and read numerous articles >> from >> Christian authors to verify this. I do not wish to surprise or >> offend anyone >> and I certainly do not intend that by offering this information to >> attack >> anyone's personal faith. My purpose in this essay is simply to >> relate a >> historical account based upon the available evidence. >> >> Now, back to our topic. >> >> The Macabees, with full intent rededicated the holy Temple to >> HaShem three >> years to the day after it was defiled, on the 25th of Kislev, >> specifically >> to make a statement against the religion of the Greeks. The day >> that the >> pagan Greeks celebrated victory over the Jews and their religion >> became the >> day that the Jews took their revenge and celebrated their victory >> over the >> Greeks. >> >> One must understand that according to the Sefer HaMacabim, which is >> the most >> authoritative historical record of this time period, the war of the >> Macabees >> was two fold. It was fought against both the pagan Greek invaders >> and with >> their Jewish sympathizers, whose number was the majority of the >> country. In >> essence, the Maccabee war was a Jewish civil war of the religious >> verses the >> non-religious. Sefer HaMacabim is very clear on this point. This >> was first a >> battle of Jew verses Jew (I Macabees 2:27). >> >> The war began when Matityah(u) Ben Yohanan HaKohen (the priest) >> struck down >> a Jew who was coming to offer a sacrifice on an altar of idolatry in >> Modi'in. Only after he killed the rebellious Jew did Matityah then >> kill the >> supervising Greek officer. His family and followers then fled for >> the hills, >> knowing that both Greek and Hellenistic Jew would hunt them down at >> all >> costs. >> >> Matityahu and his band were very few in numbers and were not well >> versed in >> the ways of war. Although they had zeal and Kedusha (holiness), >> these were >> not enough to win a war. When a large group of Torah faithful men, >> women and >> children were cornered by the Greeks on one Shabat, they refused to >> fight >> because to do so would violate Shabat law. The pagan Greeks >> slaughtered over >> a thousand innocent souls on that day. Only after this incident was >> the >> Halakha ordained that "Pikuah Nefesh Doheh HaShabat" (saving lives >> takes >> precedence over the Shabat; ref. I Mac. 2:41). >> >> Sefer HaMacabim recounts that the Macabees then met and teamed up >> with a >> group referred to as the Hasidim, who were "war-like Israelites, >> every one a >> volunteer for the Torah" (1 Mac. 2:42). It was only by receiving >> these >> reinforcements that Yehuda Maccabee had enough men with military >> experience >> to conduct guerrilla warfare and acts of terrorism against the >> superior >> forces of the Greeks and their Hellenistic Jewish allies. >> >> The identity of these Hasidim is a matter of great importance, for >> we see >> that prior to the Maccabee revolt there already were pious Torah >> observant >> G-d fearing Jews who had separated themselves from Hellenistic >> Israel. >> Although these Hasidim did not start the war, they nonetheless >> fought it. >> Some recent scholars have attempted to associate these Hasidim with >> the >> Essenes or others similar to the Dead Sea Scroll community. >> However, this association cannot be not accurate. At this time in >> history, >> the Essenes and the Dead Sea Scroll community were in open conflict >> with >> what they considered the unclean priesthood of Yerushalayim. Since >> Matityahu >> was the then a deposed priest of Yerushalayim, it is almost certain >> that the >> Essenes and their like would have wished Matityahu "good riddance" >> and would >> be glad to see him go. As his opponents, the Essenes would not have >> jumped >> on the Maccabee bandwagon to help Matityah and Klal Yisrael (the >> general >> Jewish public). >> >> This political/religious divide in ancient Israel is reflected >> today between >> those who would fight for the Jewish state and those who would >> abstain from >> any fighting, claiming themselves to be religiously superior, just >> as did >> the Essenes of old. Ultimately, the Essenes and their way passed into >> eternity leaving only a footnote in history. One wonders if modern >> groups >> embracing the same attitude will face the same fate and ultimately >> fade away >> into history in spite of however powerful and influential they >> appear today. >> >> >> The Gemara (Berakhot 5) enlightens us as to the true identity of >> these >> mysterious Hasidim who assisted the Macabees. They were known as >> the Hasidim >> Rishonim (the pious ones of old). These holy individuals were known >> for >> their pietistic practices and teachings. They were well loved by >> the rank >> and file everyday Jew, for unlike Essenes, these Hasidim never >> elevated >> themselves and separated from their fellow Jews. They were very >> much like >> today's religious "Zionist" camp, who are devoted fully to a life >> of Torah >> and who still see it as a high priority to serve in the army. >> >> These Hasidim Rishonim however did separate themselves from the >> Hellenistic >> world around them and associated exclusively within the realm of >> Torah >> Judaism. As such, another name given to these Hasidim was the >> "Perushim" >> (the ones who separate). Today most know this group as the >> Pharisees, who in >> Christian sources are wrongly portrayed as being hypocritical >> opponents to >> Yeshu. This is but one of many examples of Greco-Roman anti- >> Semitism that >> was adopted and incorporated into the Christian religion. >> >> The Maccabee war against the Greeks and the Hellenistic Jews waged >> for three >> years. It took that long for Yehuda Maccabee and his forces to >> conquer >> Yerushalayim. Upon entering the Temple, they found that it had been >> used for >> pagan idol worship. >> Everything therein was contaminated. Everything had to be replaced. >> Even the >> altar stone was removed and secreted away somewhere under the >> Temple Mount. >> Sefer HaMacabim (4:46) states that the stone was hidden until a navi >> (prophet) would come and reveal to them what to do with it. A new >> altar >> stone was put in place. After many days of preparation, the Temple >> was >> rededicated. The dedication ceremony, like those before it was to >> last eight >> days. Yehuda Maccabee then ordained that these eight days were to be >> remembered and observed throughout our generations. Thus, we have the >> holiday of Hanukah. >> >> Stop for a moment. Did you notice what is missing from this story >> as told in >> the most accurate historical record of this time? The miracle of the >> consecration oil lasting eight days (instead of just one) is not >> mentioned. >> The origins of this story are found in the Gemara and not in the >> historical >> text. This is not to insinuate that the miracle did not occur, G-d >> forbid. >> For if our Sages said that it happened, then it happened. >> >> It is however, possible that the miracle was kept quiet and only >> the Jews >> most closely associated with the Temple knew about it at the time >> when the >> Sefer HaMacabim was authored. More likely, the reason why the >> miracle is not >> mentioned is that the authors of Sefer HaMacabim did not want to >> overshadow >> the real miracle, which was the victory at war, as shown by the Al >> HaNisim >> prayer inserted into the Amidah. All too often people pay attention >> to the >> wrong things. If the miracle of the oil were emphasized, then >> people in >> later generations would forget that it took a war, which was >> miraculously >> won, in order to make the miracle happen. >> >> The lesson we learn from the Hanukah story is that in spite of how >> bleak >> things look for Torah and for those Jews faithful to it, when we >> put our >> trust in HaShem and act upon it, we become the instruments of >> manifesting >> His salvation. The Hasidim Rishonim who joined forces with the >> Macabees were >> known to be powerful practitioners of the mystical arts. Many of >> their >> number were known as the "Yordei HaMerkava" (those who stand before >> the >> Throne of G-d). They knew the secrets of the names of the angels. >> They had >> the power to call for Divine intervention. Yet, in spite of all this >> spiritual power, nothing availed against the enemies of Torah until >> the >> righteous combined their spiritual power with military might. >> ..... >> >> With all their victories, the Macabees only succeeded in bringing >> temporary >> relief to Israel. Their victory soon slipped away. In order to >> protect >> themselves from further Greek aggression, Yehuda Maccabee himself >> signed a >> mutual defense treaty with none other than Rome. Yehuda Maccabee >> initially >> saved Israel because he trusted in G-d. Yet, once he lost his faith >> in G-d >> and instead placed his faith in men (in this case, Roman military >> might), he >> unknowingly sealed the fate of the Jewish people and brought >> destruction >> upon us all. Soon after this pact was made, Yehuda Maccabee met his >> fate and >> was killed in battle. Let this lesson of history serve as a >> reminder to >> those today who wish to put their faith in the might of others >> instead of >> having faith in the Might of G-d. >> >> The state of Jewish and Torah affairs today is at a great low. As >> long as >> our religious leaders can be manipulated through fear, money and >> power, we >> will not have a new Matityah Maccabee. Until all our religious >> youth learn >> the art of war, not one of them can ever become the next Yehuda >> Maccabee. >> The forces of our enemies rejoice in the weakened state of Jews and >> Torah >> Judaism. >> >> Our anti-Semitic enemies of today seek to destroy Torah Judaism >> with vigor >> equal to our enemies of old. Without a Yehuda Maccabee today, we >> must ask if >> after all these years, will our enemies finally succeed in >> silencing the >> voice of Torah? We hope not and pray not. We defiantly proclaim, >> "Shema >> Yisrael" (Hear O'Israel, Deut 6:4; the pledge of Torah allegiance). >> Yet, >> with every cry, lesser and lesser sincerity is heard in the voices. >> If we do >> not do something fast to turn the religious community back to being >> truly >> religious in Maccabee style, there might not be much left of the >> religious >> community after the next decade or two. >> >> As we light the Hanukah lights (with pure olive oil, rather than with >> candles), we must remember that Torah is the light of the world and >> it is >> our job as Jews to make sure that the true light shines. This very >> well >> necessitates that each of us takes on the role of warrior, one who >> stands >> for Biblical morality in face of modern secular atheist attacks. As >> shown by >> the Macabees and the Hasidim centuries ago, unless those in the Torah >> community take action to protect the Torah way of life, nothing in >> the world >> will be able to help us. >> >> If we do take the right action and fight for what is right, to >> defend and >> protect ourselves, then nothing in the world will be able to stop >> us. The >> American patriot, Benjamin Franklin summed it up when he said, "G-d >> helps >> those who help themselves." As Rabbi Tarphon has said, "it is not >> up to you >> to complete the work, but you are not free to avoid your share." >> Hillel >> said, "if not now, then when." >> We know what must be done. Will we now do it? >> >> A Word to Non-Jews >> >> Hanukah is a holiday that the non-Jews can also celebrate. For this >> is an >> occasion of celebrating the victory of truth over falsehood, >> morality over >> depravity, and good over bad. >> >> If they wish, non-Jews can set up for themselves menorahs and light >> candles >> every night. However, they may not recite the specific blessings >> reserved >> for this lighting. The first blessing includes the word >> "vitzivanu" (who has >> commanded us). No non- Jew can say that G-d commanded them to light a >> menorah. >> >> The second blessing includes the words "Sh'asah Nisim >> L'Avoteynu" (who did >> miracles for our fathers). The miracle was not done for the fathers >> of the >> non- Jews; therefore, they cannot honestly say these words. >> >> Thus, non-Jews may certainly join the Jewish people in celebrating >> this >> joyous victory, for the message of this victory is the same for us >> all; >> Light and right will triumph, when we stand up and shine the Light >> and do >> what is right. >> >> Let us all thank G-d, each in our own way, for His bringing us to >> know the >> truth of His Ways. >> >> Hag Hanukah Sameah. >> >> ----------------------------------------------------- >> Shalom, Ariel Bar Tzadok >> > > From rndavar at aol.com Sun Dec 2 15:48:27 2007 From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 16:48:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath Class Message-ID: <8CA034434AA8EC5-A18-60E5@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com> The class from the Sabbath is posted on my website if you missed it yesterday. Shalom, Ross ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/c80f4444/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Sun Dec 2 16:11:51 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:11:51 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Message-ID: Ross, Here is what I got from my Christian teacher about how the prophesies may pertain to the state of Israel today and in response to your post on your ROF Lesson for November. I would appreciate your response as I am a beginner at this but trying hard to understand what is for me overwhelming. Thank you for this open forum and "big tent" dialogue about critical issues in critical times. Bonnie >> >> Bonnie: >> >> My take on this subject follows. >> >> In my opinion, those who believe that the fulfillment of the >> prophecies of Joel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, are to be found in today's >> State of Israel are misinterpreting the meanings of 'Judah' and >> 'Israel.' >> >> The time spoken of by Joel 3, for example, lists both Judah and >> Israel but does so from a different standpoint than is typically >> interpreted. >> >> KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I >> shall bring again the captivity of JUDAH and Jerusalem, 2 I will >> also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley >> of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and >> for my heritage ISRAEL, whom they have scattered among the >> nations, and parted my land. >> >> Those prophets were living during the period of the Divided >> Kingdoms of Judah and Israel, i.e., long after the death of >> Solomon. To those prophets, 'JUDAH' referred to the Southern >> Kingdom that included primarily the tribe of Judah, the small >> tribe of Benjamin and a smattering of the remains of the tribe of >> Simeon [the majority of Simeon failed to defeat the Edomites >> (descendants of Esau) and assimilated with them. Today, those >> Israelites are part of the 'Arabs' in and around Israel and those >> descendants of Simeon do not even know they are Israelites. Many >> would be horrified to find that they were!]. >> >> In those prophets' times, the Northern Kingdom of Israel >> essentially had no religion. Jereboam who became the first king >> of ISRAEL (which included the other 9 tribes) refused to allow the >> people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel to go to the Temple in >> Jerusalem. For the most part, they took up the worship of the >> pagan gods of the Canaanites. There was a stressful period of >> better than 200 years with the two kingdoms--the Northern Kingdom >> refusing to worship God at all (the 'faithless Israel' Jer 3:6) >> and 'unfaithful Judah' based in Jerusalem (Jer 3:7) frequently >> setting aside their worship of God by also sacrificing to heathen >> idols. One key thing to note here, is the distinction between >> 'faithless Israel' versus 'unfaithful Judah.' >> >> By 722 BCE, the Northern Kingdom of ISRAEL had been taken captive >> by the Assyrians and scattered throughout the Assyrian empire. >> Those nine tribes are part of the 'Ten Lost Tribes of >> Israel.' (The other lost tribe was Simeon as above.) For roughly >> 150 years, the Southern Kingdom of 'Judah' was all that remained >> of the identifiable 12 Tribes of Israel. >> >> Then, during the time of Jeremiah, Solomon's Temple was destroyed >> when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 585 BCE. The tribe of >> Judah was then carried off to Babylonian captivity for about 70 >> years. Under Ezra and Nehemiah a group of those captive 'Jews' >> returned to Jerusalem where they rebuilt the city walls and >> erected the Second Temple--roughly about 500 BCE. >> >> SO, when those prophets spoke of 'JUDAH' they were talking about >> the people that became known as the 'Jews.' The rest of the >> tribes of Israel were never called 'Jews.' >> >> When the prophets spoke of 'ISRAEL' they were talking about the >> people who were taken into captivity but who had lost their >> identities as descendants of Abraham (actually Israel==Jacob). >> >> So, in Joel 3:1, the prophet is speaking of the coming Babylonian >> captivity which dealt only with Judah and Jerusalem. In Joel 3:2 >> notice that Israel is the scattered portion. >> >> KJV Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them >> down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them >> there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have >> scattered among the nations, and parted my land. >> >> It is essential to recognize the difference between Judah and >> Israel to make sense of these prophecies. The opinion that the >> prophets' use of 'Israel' to mean the 'Jews' of today is very >> shaky in my opinion. >> >> The references to Israel returning and occupying the land in peace >> has NOT YET COME TO PASS. I believe it WILL happen, but not yet. >> The first return of 'Jews' (Judah) as we see it today may well be >> the first stages of the process of Israel (the other tribes) >> returning. BUT FIRST, the descendants of the 'lost' Israel must >> be identified and desire to return to the Holy Land. Personally, >> I think the current geneticists' work on studying DNA will >> eventually give us an identity marker to identify all Israelites. >> >> But to say that the land was promised to the 'Jews' is >> misleading. God's promise is to ALL the descendants of Israel to >> INCLUDE the Jews but it is not to be limited to them. >> >> As a matter of fact, God's promise given to Abraham HAS BEEN >> FULFILLED for many centuries. >> >> [Gen 15:18] On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and >> said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of >> Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-- >> >> Abraham's descendants included Ishmael, Esau, [Gen 25:1] After >> Sarah's death, Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah. >> She bore him SIX more sons. >> >> [Gen 25:2] She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and >> Shuah. >> >> ALL of them produced descendants that settled in that region >> between the Nile and the Euphrates! They are still there and we >> often call them 'Arabs.' That land belongs to ALL of them in >> accordance with God's promise to Abraham. >> >> They just need to learn to share it peaceably. Maybe something >> positive CAN come of the Annapolis Summit!! >> >> Shalom, >> Blair >> >> >>> >>> > >>> > ============= >>> > Shalom to all! >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > This week I have been flooded with insights while preparing my >>> lesson. >>> > I simply can't wait until this Saturday morning's class. We are >>> living >>> > in exciting times. This week, while leaders from all over the >>> world >>> > convened in Annapolis, Maryland to discuss among other things, the >>> > future of Jerusalem, I have been busy studying what God's word >>> has to >>> > say about it. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > You shouldn't be surprised to find out that there is a great >>> difference >>> > between what various political leaders have in mind and what >>> God sets >>> > forth in the Bible through His prophets. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > You may however be surprised to learn that the ancient >>> Triennial cycle >>> > reading from the Law and the Prophets to be read this Saturday, >>> speaks >>> > directly about this subject. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > In this week's Torah reading (Genesis 12 and 13) as well as the >>> > Prophets reading (Joshua 24) we read very clearly that God gave >>> the >>> > land of Israel to Abram and his seed, specifically through >>> Isaac and >>> > Jacob. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > In my estimation, the return of the Jewish people to the land >>> promised >>> > to the patriarchs in our day, is a fulfillment of Biblical >>> prophecy. >>> > This return of Israel to the "promised land" is perhaps the most >>> > prominent theme in the Hebrew Prophets, mentioned in over 40 major >>> > sections of the texts. As I have pointed out before, God's >>> restoration >>> > of Israel to the promised land is the one thing that He will do >>> with >>> > "all His heart and all His soul" - Jeremiah 32:41. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > One should take note that God calls this small and highly >>> contested >>> > land - "my land" in Joel 3:2. Jews, Christians and Moslems all lay >>> > claim to it in all or in part, but this week's class will make >>> clear >>> > that the "title / deed" was promised by God to a single family - >>> > Israel! >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > It is commonly referred to today as the "Holy Land". (See >>> Zechariah >>> > 2:13 for the one time in the Bible where this name is used to >>> refer to >>> > "the Land" of Israel). >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > In my studies this week I found one passage to be most incredible. >>> > Popular translations don't do justice to this passage and so I >>> have >>> > translated it myself in order to render it more closely to the >>> original >>> > Hebrew. It may seem awkward in English, but this literal >>> rendering is >>> > much better I think. In Deuteronomy 11:12 we find that this >>> land is; >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > "a land which the LORD your God searches her continually: the >>> eyes of >>> > the LORD are on her, from the beginning of the year and until >>> the end >>> > of the year." >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Think about that! Can you imagine God searching this land >>> continually >>> > throughout the year with His eyes? The image I get is of a guard >>> > looking up and down this strip of land from a strategic viewpoint! >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme >>> > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical >>> revelation. I >>> > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, >>> > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic >>> > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or >>> > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would >>> > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet >>> Joel had to >>> > say about the subject that they now consider. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > In the third chapter of Joel we read: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when >>> I shall >>> > bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also >>> gather >>> > all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of >>> Jehoshaphat, >>> > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage >>> > Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my >>> > land. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It >>> > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all >>> nations is >>> > brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and >>> "Parted MY >>> > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on >>> "in the >>> > news". >>> > >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/52bcdfce/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sun Dec 2 16:31:40 2007 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 17:31:40 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... In-Reply-To: <822E8653-4C7C-4213-B490-32FD0C9E1E18@mac.com> References: <120120072232.23953.4751E0EE00043A9500005D9122243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> <822E8653-4C7C-4213-B490-32FD0C9E1E18@mac.com> Message-ID: Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G-d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... > Thank you Glenn, > > I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a > commitment. > Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my > Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a > listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in > Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and > a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I > have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a > giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) > > As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and > his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this > stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am > a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it > would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of > Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what > my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea > that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, > that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots > of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. > > Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am > honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the > rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very > high-tech format. > > Shavua Tov > > Denny > > > On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: > >> Denny, >> >> I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope >> God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I >> lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. >> >> As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as >> well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from Joshua >> today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of your >> fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... >> >> I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and >> they are found in both the OT and NT. >> >> Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) search >> for Me with all your heart. >> >> Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he >> who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a >> rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. >> >> All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... >> >> Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. >> >> Glenn >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ From dennyj at mac.com Sun Dec 2 16:46:31 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 16:46:31 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... In-Reply-To: References: <120120072232.23953.4751E0EE00043A9500005D9122243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> <822E8653-4C7C-4213-B490-32FD0C9E1E18@mac.com> Message-ID: Hey Dick, Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the Christians any longer. My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the words of encouragement, Dick. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: > Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' s > you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G-d's > eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost > tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do not > believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied > with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first teacher in > helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was > written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". > I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the > Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the > Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only > a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. > Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily > found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost > Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, > and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and > understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot > prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group > even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. > > > Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... > > >> Thank you Glenn, >> >> I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such >> a commitment. >> Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program >> on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I >> tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what >> the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in >> efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer >> and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were >> calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) >> >> As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim >> Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The >> more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It >> almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake >> I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of >> solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob >> and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all >> of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may >> be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that >> I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic >> Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. >> >> Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way >> around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes >> of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships >> deepen in this very high-tech format. >> >> Shavua Tov >> >> Denny >> >> >> On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: >> >>> Denny, >>> >>> I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I >>> hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful >>> to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on >>> your behalf. >>> >>> As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank >>> slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he >>> spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve >>> - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been >>> an easy thing... >>> >>> I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but >>> two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. >>> >>> Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) >>> search for Me with all your heart. >>> >>> Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, >>> for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) >>> He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. >>> >>> All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... >>> >>> Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. >>> >>> Glenn >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sun Dec 2 16:58:24 2007 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 17:58:24 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow In-Reply-To: References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <27D33433-BBC5-4482-B754-4C177D2B10C9@mac.com> Message-ID: <787A804811EE40B6814865E304FD70BA@DickLPC> Bonnie ! I believe you have come to some excellent conclusions. But, hang in there if U can. We ARE searching for truth, and sharing knowledge & understanding from DIFFERENT ways???? This group, or at least part of it that is still around, started over 20 yrs ago, as Gentiles, searching for God's truth. It has changed alot since then. It may be wise for some to find What the Torah has for the Gentile. Or what God has "called out from amongst the Gentiles a people for his name". I find that most of the new peoples are confused about being or trying to learn Judaism and they are Gentiles. Where are you now, Jew or Gentile???? What do U wish to be??? What should you be???? how will we find out??? That's all I can add with my limited understanding. Dick L. Subject: something in common, dark and snow Denny and John C, I think it is still too soon to say I am in this movement. I am actually still considering converting to Jewish, not Messianic Jewish, however, my Christian teacher says that I am moving in the right direction, after all Jesus was a Jew. I am still overwhelmed trying to figure out how "big tent" this movement is; there is so much to read, and it seems many different perspectives; yet everyone is respectful of everyone and I find that wonderful. If searching together for the truth by sharing w/o a requirement that everyone come to the same truth conclusions is the movement, then yes, I am in. However, if everyone has to be of the same belief for what needs to happen in the state of Israel today, then ... I am not moving in the same direction as James Tabor, but I would rather my Rabbi teacher explain why. I am a member of the Tikkun Community of Rabbi Lerner, an interfaith movement. www.tikun.org and currently reading his book, "HEALING ISRAEL/PALESTINE, A Path to Peace and Reconciliation" which is different from what Hanoch, James and Ross are saying ... so I am still wondering if I will be welcome in this dialogue because I really agree with Rabbi Lerner. I wish we could get them to dialogue with each other for us all to hear and maybe then we could really all come together to learn and work for God's mission ... a dream worth working for. Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hi Bonnie, I have never been in your area. But I hear it is beautiful. My email address is dennyj at mac.com. That website is not associated with my son any longer. Aaron Eby is the one responsible at this time. Aaron also writes for FFOZ http://www.ffoz.org . I think you would really like that site if you have never been there. Our son attends Beth Immanuel http://www.bethimmanuel.org where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches and leads. You surely have heard of Daniel and his works. We have had him and his family in our home a couple of times for Shabbat. Nice family. Good man. So, how did you get into this movement? Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hi Denny, I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the possibility of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He has a great respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, not as a God or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I like what your son is doing and thank you for that website. Is it OK to pass it on? How do you get your email address to be in the From: whereas mine is only my name. My email address is b.nelson@ alaska.com Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hi Bonnie, We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan cruise last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an the like. Beautiful country. Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. You are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored to some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know as I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing God is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike trust. He is my Abba. So again, where in Alaska are you? Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hi Denny, I really liked reading your email this morning and making me realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I am wondering where you live. I also related to what you said about deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me even though I have never been Christian. I like being unburdened and adrift, it's like we are trying to create our maps, but doing it collaboratively is way more rewarding than alone. Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: Good morning all, Shabbat Shalom! I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. Can you imagine the noise? Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking about and questioning him about where he is at now in his journey. Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to go at this time. He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed into somewhat of a different character. Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience and now consider themselves more Noahide in their understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. We didn't really understand what happened, but after my conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. He started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers he went deep into textual criticism and was at a place much like what you all have been sharing with me. But he told me that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper into the same issues with the O.T. he ran into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go any further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to believe in or teach my children". He knows enough now to completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted to. He doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God of our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He basically told me that i really don't want to go down this road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and basically get really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My fear is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know truth if what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period of my life as a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling time. One thing that stand out to me know is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and what I love about what I see in this group is the obvious love, kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see here. You all are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to identify with you in any way because others might think that i believe as you do and that would not be good. I proudly identify with you because you are all good and humble people who really do know how to live a life of love. Thank you for your example. Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all the noise around here. Blessings of Sabbath to you all. Denny _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/725a9a24/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Dec 2 17:05:42 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 18:05:42 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow In-Reply-To: <4B32E3F1-9E99-4623-A844-25A3D704D033@mac.com> References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <27D33433-BBC5-4482-B754-4C177D2B10C9@mac.com> <4B32E3F1-9E99-4623-A844-25A3D704D033@mac.com> Message-ID: Most kind of you Denny. James On Dec 2, 2007, at 10:07 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: > Well said, James, > > You always have such a gracious way of expressing yourself. This is > evidence of the Spirit of Yaweh in your heart and I feel is true of > everyone that I have read in this dialogue. Our dialogue is, I > think, an example of how the world should be. Respectful, supportive > discourse. Regarding things political, I am so tired of the shrill > voices that typically fill the airwaves and public forums, both > liberal and conservative. My wife and I were talking about this just > this past weekend. She mentioned the one man she respects and > listens to regularly on the radio. He is a very respected Jewish man > who's goal in this life is a very Jewish goal....to make this world > a better place. Dennis Prager works tirelessly to bring clarity into > discussion and build bridges between differing ideologies all based > on Torah principles. Considering how little I know of you other than > what I have read of your postings here and also reading your book, > The Jesus Dynasty, I would have to make the same assumption about > yourself. We are honored to have your participation in this > dialogue. I'm sure you are a very busy man. We look forward to > reading your insights and musings. Thanks for taking the time. > > Shalom, > > Denny > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 8:36 AM, James Tabor wrote: > >> Dear Bonnie and all, >> >> Since you mentioned my name I thought I might offer a few thoughts. >> I would say we are much more of a dialoguing association of >> individuals than a "movement" per se, certainly in this new >> discussion that Ross Nichols has set up, which has drawn in a much >> wider group and I think is potentially open to anyone who is >> sincerely seeking our Creator God and to walk in his/her Ways, and >> wants to "dialogue" about "Roots of Faith" in a way respectful to >> the views of others. So in that sense the "tent" is pretty big, >> probably as wide as our respect for honest differences is. Since >> Ross is the moderator, not me, and has invited "whosoever will" to >> come and sit at this table, he will be the one to determine how the >> parameters work out. I think the reason there is such a good spirit >> of respect and harmony, even with differences, is that people >> involved have walked on many of the same paths and had similar >> experiences, even if ending up with different conclusions, plus >> there is a basic unity in seeking the God of Abraham as revealed in >> the Torah and Prophets. >> >> You should also not assume that our views of Israel and the current >> situation in the land are uniform. I don't think I have expressed >> my views on that subject but I do not share the view of those who >> advocate violent slaughter or removal of the Arab population on the >> West side of the Jordan, nor do I support the views of Rabbi >> Lerner, particularly on the 1967 borders and the Palestinian State >> he advocates. This is not to say one is opposed to the ethical >> principles of peace, justice, and righteousness and the ideals of a >> society built on biblical principles that he highlights. On the >> other hand I have a strong view that those who do not live there >> should not pass judgment from afar and that only those who have >> thrown their lot in with the permanent inhabitants of the Land can >> really view things from a perspective of being "inside" or part of >> the solution. That said I should emphasize that I only speak for >> myself here. I would be quite reluctant to engage in any kind of >> extensive political discussion involving the current situation in >> Israel in this kind of e-mail forum. I have known some in this >> group for nearly twenty years and I think when it comes to >> politics, domestic or Israeli, we are probably worlds apart from >> one another. I think we can all agree on various ideals, but when >> it comes to the matter of implementation in our flawed political >> world, most of us are looking to a future spoken of by the >> Prophets, when YHVH himself "returns," and the new Exodus spoken of >> by Jeremiah comes about, in which YHVH gives us shepherds of his >> own choosing. I have focused my own study and writings in this area >> on trying to understand and expound those prophetic texts. The >> potential "fit" between the future they envision and our present is >> always tenuous. In the meantime each of us has to make our >> political and social choices in our own communities and country. >> >> Warmest best, >> >> James >> >> On Dec 1, 2007, at 6:44 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >> >>> Denny and John C, >>> I think it is still too soon to say I am in this movement. I am >>> actually still considering converting to Jewish, not Messianic >>> Jewish, however, my Christian teacher says that I am moving in the >>> right direction, after all Jesus was a Jew. I am still overwhelmed >>> trying to figure out how "big tent" this movement is; there is so >>> much to read, and it seems many different perspectives; yet >>> everyone is respectful of everyone and I find that wonderful. If >>> searching together for the truth by sharing w/o a requirement that >>> everyone come to the same truth conclusions is the movement, then >>> yes, I am in. However, if everyone has to be of the same belief >>> for what needs to happen in the state of Israel today, then ... I >>> am not moving in the same direction as James Tabor, but I would >>> rather my Rabbi teacher explain why. I am a member of the Tikkun >>> Community of Rabbi Lerner, an interfaith movement. www.tikun.org >>> and currently reading his book, "HEALING ISRAEL/PALESTINE, A Path >>> to Peace and Reconciliation" which is different from what Hanoch, >>> James and Ross are saying ... so I am still wondering if I will be >>> welcome in this dialogue because I really agree with Rabbi Lerner. >>> I wish we could get them to dialogue with each other for us all to >>> hear and maybe then we could really all come together to learn and >>> work for God's mission ... a dream worth working for. >>> Shalom, Bonnie >>> >>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Bonnie, >>>> >>>> I have never been in your area. But I hear it is beautiful. >>>> My email address is dennyj at mac.com. >>>> That website is not associated with my son any longer. Aaron Eby >>>> is the one responsible at this time. Aaron also writes for FFOZ http://www.ffoz.org >>>> . >>>> I think you would really like that site if you have never been >>>> there. Our son attends Beth Immanuel http://www.bethimmanuel.org >>>> where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches and leads. You surely have >>>> heard of Daniel and his works. We have had him and his family in >>>> our home a couple of times for Shabbat. Nice family. Good man. >>>> >>>> So, how did you get into this movement? >>>> >>>> Denny >>>> >>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Denny, >>>>> I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage >>>>> Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the >>>>> "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the >>>>> possibility of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He >>>>> has a great respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, >>>>> not as a God or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I >>>>> like what your son is doing and thank you for that website. Is >>>>> it OK to pass it on? How do you get your email address to be in >>>>> the From: whereas mine is only my name. My email address is >>>>> b.nelson@ alaska.com >>>>> Bonnie >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Bonnie, >>>>>> >>>>>> We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful >>>>>> day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. >>>>>> What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan >>>>>> cruise last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an >>>>>> the like. Beautiful country. >>>>>> Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My >>>>>> wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of >>>>>> our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and >>>>>> even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. >>>>>> You are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels >>>>>> strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored >>>>>> to some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural >>>>>> shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. >>>>>> Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your >>>>>> in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the >>>>>> same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that >>>>>> seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know >>>>>> as I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing >>>>>> God is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike >>>>>> trust. He is my Abba. >>>>>> >>>>>> So again, where in Alaska are you? >>>>>> >>>>>> Denny >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Denny, >>>>>>> I really liked reading your email this morning and making me >>>>>>> realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I >>>>>>> am wondering where you live. I also related to what you said >>>>>>> about deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me >>>>>>> even though I have never been Christian. I like being >>>>>>> unburdened and adrift, it's like we are trying to create our >>>>>>> maps, but doing it collaboratively is way more rewarding than >>>>>>> alone. >>>>>>> Bonnie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good morning all, >>>>>>>> Shabbat Shalom! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our >>>>>>>> grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. >>>>>>>> It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. >>>>>>>> Can you imagine the noise? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent >>>>>>>> conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. >>>>>>>> I was sharing with him some of the things I have been >>>>>>>> thinking about and questioning him about where he is at now >>>>>>>> in his journey. >>>>>>>> Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our >>>>>>>> family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to >>>>>>>> go at this time. >>>>>>>> He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath >>>>>>>> fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret >>>>>>>> Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) >>>>>>>> They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main >>>>>>>> group has since disbanded and now I see that they have >>>>>>>> morphed into somewhat of a different character. >>>>>>>> Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience >>>>>>>> and now consider themselves more Noahide in their >>>>>>>> understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. >>>>>>>> We didn't really understand what happened, but after my >>>>>>>> conversation with him last night, I think I have a better >>>>>>>> idea. He started questioning the typical faith issues >>>>>>>> regarding the trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his >>>>>>>> quest for answers he went deep into textual criticism and was >>>>>>>> at a place much like what you all have been sharing with me. >>>>>>>> But he told me that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. >>>>>>>> As he dug deeper into the same issues with the O.T. he ran >>>>>>>> into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last >>>>>>>> night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go >>>>>>>> any further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to >>>>>>>> believe in or teach my children". He knows enough now to >>>>>>>> completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted to. He >>>>>>>> doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God of >>>>>>>> our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He >>>>>>>> basically told me that i really don't want to go down this >>>>>>>> road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and basically get >>>>>>>> really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying >>>>>>>> "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead >>>>>>>> of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on >>>>>>>> the wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am >>>>>>>> at the moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write >>>>>>>> on me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your >>>>>>>> postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other >>>>>>>> ideas. And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this >>>>>>>> path. I am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship >>>>>>>> with God. My fear is that it is not based on truth. And how >>>>>>>> can I know truth if what I have to base it on is not >>>>>>>> reliable, namely the Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I would >>>>>>>> describe this period of my life as a deconstruction period. >>>>>>>> It is a very unsettling time. One thing that stand out to me >>>>>>>> know is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What >>>>>>>> draws me to Roots of Faith and what I love about what I see >>>>>>>> in this group is the obvious love, kindness and unity and >>>>>>>> love of Hashem that I see here. You all are awesome! The >>>>>>>> Christian way would tell me not to identify with you in any >>>>>>>> way because others might think that i believe as you do and >>>>>>>> that would not be good. I proudly identify with you because >>>>>>>> you are all good and humble people who really do know how to >>>>>>>> live a life of love. Thank you for your example. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with >>>>>>>> Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming >>>>>>>> today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter >>>>>>>> storm of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with >>>>>>>> all the noise around here. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Blessings of Sabbath to you all. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Denny >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ > > Opinions expressed are mine alone. > (Unless you happen to agree.) > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/e60b8de9/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sun Dec 2 17:36:56 2007 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 18:36:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... In-Reply-To: References: <120120072232.23953.4751E0EE00043A9500005D9122243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> <822E8653-4C7C-4213-B490-32FD0C9E1E18@mac.com> Message-ID: A small mistake in the dialog, or of my writing::: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... > said, "The Whole Torah was written for all , but not all of Torah to us, > { Gentiles".} > I --Dick L. > > > Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... > > >> Thank you Glenn, >> >> I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a >> commitment. >> Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my >> Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a >> listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in >> Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace >> and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate >> as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a >> giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) >> >> As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and >> his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this >> stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I >> am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that >> it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of >> Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what >> my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The >> idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to >> admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a >> topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. >> >> Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I >> am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and >> the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very >> high-tech format. >> >> Shavua Tov >> >> Denny >> >> >> On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: >> >>> Denny, >>> >>> I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope >>> God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I >>> lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. >>> >>> As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as >>> well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from >>> Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of >>> your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... >>> >>> I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and >>> they are found in both the OT and NT. >>> >>> Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) >>> search for Me with all your heart. >>> >>> Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he >>> who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a >>> rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. >>> >>> All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... >>> >>> Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. >>> >>> Glenn >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Dec 2 18:03:24 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 19:03:24 EST Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga...Part VII Message-ID: 1984... what a horrible year....Somehow, I got through that year, it was a blur ....and had to begin dealing with a mom who was trying to adjust to a life alone, and relied heavily upon me, and that I wasn't going to be a father after all....at least not at that time. It was strange, I remember telling my brother at the start of the shiva (the 7 days of ritual mourning) for my dad, that I don't know what I would do, if anything happened to our baby. The baby that if it was a boy, would be named after my father - a level of continuity, at least, and some consolation for such a sudden loss. You know, like the Lion King's "Circle of Life" thing? The baby that wasn't meant to be.....there had already been considerable tension/drama at home, the baby was supposed to bring us together....not meant to be.....on any level.... I was working for PepsiCo at the time, the parent company of Pepsi, and was asked to come back to work, immediately after the mourning period (those first seven days) were over. What they hadn't counted on, was that I was observing the practice of not shaving for the first 30 days of mourning. Although I had a thin baby-face (I know, I know you can't picture it...but it was true, LOL), I looked like a wolfman, with hair growing wildly on my face, chin and neck. Although one woman at work, who didn't realize there was a religious reason behind it, told me she liked the 'rough, caveman look' I was going for. Sighhhh...The company offered me (every employee) tickets to Michael Jackson's "Thriller" concert (he had just become a spokesman for Pepsi), and could not understand that as part of mourning, I did not go to concerts.....they just thought I was one weird Jew......That Fall, I was desperate to take some time off, and regain my focus....death, car accidents, the miscarriage...I NEEDED to get away. But I quickly found out that my vacation time had been retroactively taken away from me, due to the time I took off for mourning!! Man, I could have used some time........ I kept trying to figure out how to save for Aliyah, and how to get a job in Israel, but I now had a mom who depended upon me for emotional support.....I began to wonder if it was HaShem's plan that I should be there to support my mom....but that was just a rationalization. I had no idea why I couldn't 'push forward' with my Aliyah plans, but there was plenty of 'family' drama to keep me distracted... Continually, I tried to volunteer to write, or speak for various Jewish organizations, but no one seemed to have any use for me. I felt that I had all this incredible Torah that I learned from Rav Kahane, but no one to teach it to....or share it with....One good thing that happened that year - Rav Kahane got elected to the Kennest, despite all the efforts of the leftists and Hellenists to keep him silent. But his hoped for effect on the government was very short lived. Before the next election (where his Kach party was projected to get 12 seats, and be a major factor in forming a government), he was banned from running again. He was deemed to be 'racist...' by quoting from the Torah and the Rambam (Maimonides). What a travesty.... In June of 1985, we were blessed with a lovely daughter, Ayala Rivka, who was just the sweetest baby you could imagine.....blond hair, blue eyes (yeah, just like Hanoch, I know you're thinking) At the same time, I was hoping that someway, somehow, we could all go on Aliyah....but as the saying goes, "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail..." I got my first credit card at that time, and soon found myself accumulating debt. I ignored the pressing 'relationship' issues in my life, by focusing on my lovely daughter. That summer (1985), I took Ayala in her carriage, to hear Rav Kahane speak at a local shul. At the end of the speech, I approached him, wheeling the carriage. We hadn't 'touched base' in a number of years at that point, and he clearly assumed that I must have made Aliyah, that I was in Israel. I knew it, when he looked up and saw me, with the carriage, and said, in a truly surprised tone, "What are you still doing here???" He was soon surrounded with admirers, and I couldn't get near him. Those were the last words he ever spoke to me (he was murdered in New York in 1990)......I felt like a low-life dirtbag, for being in America, but was sure my job luck (being highly qualified, but underpaid) would some how change, miraculously. In Judaism, we are told not to depend on miracles, but I clearly was (looking at it with hindsight).... There was a young guy in shul that I heard was "involved" in a recent spate of bombings (no casualties, just warning stuff), I'll just call him by his last initial, 'C' Well, C came up to me one Shabbat, and asked me, "Hey - aren't you Hanoch Young? I heard you used to be an activist" OUCH!!!! That hurt, more then you can imagine, how did I go from an 'activist' to a has been, over night? Sighhhhhhh Poor C, he got involved with this new version of what I'll call, "Jewish Armed Resistance" and was caught and convicted (along with several others..). He was a sweet, good looking guy, maybe 20 - 21 years old, and was about to be sentenced. The weekend before, he took an overdose of sleeping pills and passed away in his sleep. Accident? Suicide? I'll never know, and neither will anyone else...but what a shame......he was such a nice guy... My salary gradually rose to $44,000, as my youngest daughter Kyra Miriam was born, in May, 1988. That amount of money, for a family of four in New York? There just wasn't enough money to go around. The number of credit cards grew, as did the amounts charged on them.....it was becoming harder, and harder to envision Aliyah.... My daughters names are actually a 'play' on each other: 'Ayala' means female deer, D-E-E-R while 'Kyra' comes from 'Yakira' which means dear, D-E-A-R......I know it seems a bit lame now, but I thought I was really clever then....sighhhhhhhh.... I was the 'primary care provider' for my daughters, which was the politically correct term for: "Mr. Mom." Although it was very, very difficult to juggle work responsibilities, and make all the class birthday parties, and special assemblies, I did, and I was thrilled to be such a huge part of their lives. My mom was a BIG help in raising the girls, and they adored her, and listened to everything she said, with no question (ME, they questioned!! LOL). In fact, they were so well behaved when they were with her, that people used to say we should rent them out, to couples who were considering having children!! And mom was responsible for MY sanity, encouraging me unconditionally, and being as supportive as any human being could. I have not been the same without her....but that comes later... Both girls started their education in Jewish schools, and began attending a Yeshiva, a Jewish Day School. The payments were almost $6,000/child (and those are post-tax dollars, folks...), but I was determined that MY children would have a real Jewish education, and wouldn't have to pursue it, post-college, like I did. Little did I know that when they reached High School, it would begin costing $16,000/year for each of them, with summer camp costing $6,000/each....as a Financial Planner friend pointed out - I was using ALL of my disposable income for my girls education, and then some!! But I would do anything for my girls, I wouldn't walk out on them, and I wouldn't scrimp on their education. But more on them, a bit later. As I mentioned, some new group began a series of bombings on behalf of some Jewish causes, and it turns out that they included some "old-timers" - guys from MY era.....so, guess who became a suspect again? At this point, I was running a Fitness Center for a large New York law firm, and picked up the phone one morning, to hear someone introduce themselves as,: Larry Wack, of the FBI "Joint Terrorist Task Force!" I couldn't figure out how he got my number at work, and he wasn't volunteering much info at all, but firing lots of questions at me. Nicely, but firmly. Now, the Feds aren't so frightening when you KNOW you didn't do anything, and they had NOTHING on you :-), right? Not really....'cause they're always trying to trick you. Firstly - why call me? Like I said, it was old-timers" (someone active 10 years before) that were involved, there was a suspect that actually lived in the Bronx near me when I was growing up, and then lived in the other half of the building (think LARGE apartment buildings, folks) I moved into when Ayala was born - a total coincidence. But the best part - they found 11 weapons and explosives at a guys house, whose last name happened to be - Young.....no relation to me, but they didn't know that! Larry called me often, sometimes at work, sometimes at home, cajoling, threatening, playing 'dumb' sometimes. He knew the Shabbat I had visited my friend Baruch in Kiryat Arba back in '82 (remember when I carried the Ak-47, it was THAT Shabbat). He told me that I was a good looking guy, and photographed well. I asked him to please send me copies, so I could show my kids. He never did..LOL Eventually, they realized that I truly didn't have any info that would be of value to them, and stopped calling. And then I found out how they got my work #. Turns out that they had gone to my building's management office, and asked for my work contact #. Janet, the woman in the office said that I was a very nice man, and a very good father, so no, she wouldn't give them ANY information! Okay they said, but they would come into her office and empty every, single file on the floor. That worked - she gave them my work #..... I tried to focus on my Torah studies, but with two little girls, too many hours at work, a mom who needed me....sighhh....and what about Aliyah? I felt like I was sinking into quicksand, slowly sinking, with no way out. It wasn't supposed to be like this..... Coming up - the UIWU, and my life's mission(s)...or so I thought.... **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/f719e720/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Sun Dec 2 18:11:39 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 15:11:39 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow In-Reply-To: <787A804811EE40B6814865E304FD70BA@DickLPC> References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <27D33433-BBC5-4482-B754-4C177D2B10C9@mac.com> <787A804811EE40B6814865E304FD70BA@DickLPC> Message-ID: <7A8292A4-7306-4ECE-A0BC-1EF5D1A2AD4C@alaska.com> Dick and all, Thank you so much. What all of you are doing is tremendously good. However, I had no idea you started 20 years ago. My Rabbi teacher is actually the one that recommended the website to me even though he doesn't want to join this list/dialogue because he is so busy and also I think he believes his views would not be welcome. But I have learned so much from him. He has agreed to teach me in the event I want to convert to Judaism, but I am not there yet. Even though I don't know where I am going, I love my spiritual trip. I started out deciding I wanted to try to learn as much as possible what the history was especially before and after Jesus. I have always since childhood tried to follow the teachings of Jesus as best I could interpret them and through prayer, but have never seen it moral to either quess that he was or was not divine. Since I have no prior indoctrination baggage to let go of, it is in some respects easier for me than if I had been a Christian, but on the other hand I am in addition really trying to comprehend "Christianity" concepts for the first time, such as the trinity, virgin birth and ascension which seem more foreign to me than it was learning a foreign language, especially since there are so many different denominations of protestants and Catholics and even non Catholic/non protestant Christians. I have read more than half of the OT, and about the same for the NT and the BOM, and lots of Torah, Talmud mid-rash but my interpretations are not in line with mainstream Christianity or Orthodox Judaism. What is working for me in my search for truth is have three advisors Christian, Jewish and Muslim, who have all become friends with each other. They allow me to come to them with questions and give answers in writing and are not bothered whether I agree or not. They all agree that they might be wrong, but they are doing their best and they believe that I do that too. What should I be? Me, as I grow. What I have learned is how much faster I grow when I connect with others who are trying to connect with God, which is why I hope there is room for me here even if I am moving more and more towards Jewish kind of thinking. I took a class on Islam because I believe it important to understand that perspective, but don't see myself going in that direction. Lucky for me that is OK with My Muslim teacher. I love getting their different perspectives and also that they sometimes debate with each other. I invited them to join this dialogue, but they all said no. I promise to be respectful and will talk or be as quiet as you all want. Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:58 PM, Dick L wrote: > Bonnie ! I believe you have come to some excellent conclusions. > But, hang in there if U can. We ARE searching for truth, and > sharing knowledge & understanding from DIFFERENT ways???? This > group, or at least part of it that is still around, started over 20 > yrs ago, as Gentiles, searching for God's truth. > It has changed alot since then. It may be wise for some to find > What the Torah has for the Gentile. Or what God has "called out > from amongst the Gentiles a people for his name". I find that most > of the new peoples are confused about being or trying to learn > Judaism and they are Gentiles. Where are you now, Jew or > Gentile???? What do U wish to be??? What should you be???? how > will we find out??? That's all I can add with my limited > understanding. Dick L. > > Subject: something in common, dark and snow > > Denny and John C, > I think it is still too soon to say I am in this movement. I am > actually still considering converting to Jewish, not Messianic > Jewish, however, my Christian teacher says that I am moving in the > right direction, after all Jesus was a Jew. I am still overwhelmed > trying to figure out how "big tent" this movement is; there is so > much to read, and it seems many different perspectives; yet > everyone is respectful of everyone and I find that wonderful. If > searching together for the truth by sharing w/o a requirement > that everyone come to the same truth conclusions is the movement, > then yes, I am in. However, if everyone has to be of the same > belief for what needs to happen in the state of Israel today, > then ... I am not moving in the same direction as James Tabor, but > I would rather my Rabbi teacher explain why. I am a member of the > Tikkun Community of Rabbi Lerner, an interfaith movement. > www.tikun.org and currently reading his book, "HEALING ISRAEL/ > PALESTINE, A Path to Peace and Reconciliation" which is different > from what Hanoch, James and Ross are saying ... so I am still > wondering if I will be welcome in this dialogue because I really > agree with Rabbi Lerner. I wish we could get them to dialogue with > each other for us all to hear and maybe then we could really all > come together to learn and work for God's mission ... a dream worth > working for. > Shalom, Bonnie > > On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > >> Hi Bonnie, >> >> I have never been in your area. But I hear it is beautiful. >> My email address is dennyj at mac.com. >> That website is not associated with my son any longer. Aaron Eby >> is the one responsible at this time. Aaron also writes for FFOZ >> http://www.ffoz.org . >> I think you would really like that site if you have never been >> there. Our son attends Beth Immanuel http://www.bethimmanuel.org >> where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches and leads. You surely have heard >> of Daniel and his works. We have had him and his family in our >> home a couple of times for Shabbat. Nice family. Good man. >> >> So, how did you get into this movement? >> >> Denny >> >> On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >> >>> Hi Denny, >>> I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage >>> Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the >>> "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the possibility >>> of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He has a great >>> respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, not as a God >>> or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I like what your >>> son is doing and thank you for that website. Is it OK to pass it >>> on? How do you get your email address to be in the From: whereas >>> mine is only my name. My email address is >>> b.nelson@ alaska.com >>> Bonnie >>> >>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Bonnie, >>>> >>>> We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful >>>> day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. >>>> What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan cruise >>>> last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an the like. >>>> Beautiful country. >>>> Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My >>>> wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of >>>> our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and >>>> even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. >>>> You are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels >>>> strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored >>>> to some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural >>>> shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. >>>> Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your >>>> in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the >>>> same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that >>>> seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know >>>> as I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing >>>> God is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike >>>> trust. He is my Abba. >>>> >>>> So again, where in Alaska are you? >>>> >>>> Denny >>>> >>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Denny, >>>>> I really liked reading your email this morning and making me >>>>> realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I >>>>> am wondering where you live. I also related to what you said >>>>> about deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me >>>>> even though I have never been Christian. I like being >>>>> unburdened and adrift, it's like we are trying to create our >>>>> maps, but doing it collaboratively is way more rewarding than >>>>> alone. >>>>> Bonnie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Good morning all, >>>>>> Shabbat Shalom! >>>>>> >>>>>> I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our >>>>>> grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. >>>>>> It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. >>>>>> Can you imagine the noise? >>>>>> >>>>>> Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent >>>>>> conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. >>>>>> I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking >>>>>> about and questioning him about where he is at now in his >>>>>> journey. >>>>>> Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our >>>>>> family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to >>>>>> go at this time. >>>>>> He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath >>>>>> fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret >>>>>> Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) >>>>>> They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main >>>>>> group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed >>>>>> into somewhat of a different character. >>>>>> Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience >>>>>> and now consider themselves more Noahide in their >>>>>> understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. >>>>>> We didn't really understand what happened, but after my >>>>>> conversation with him last night, I think I have a better >>>>>> idea. He started questioning the typical faith issues >>>>>> regarding the trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his >>>>>> quest for answers he went deep into textual criticism and was >>>>>> at a place much like what you all have been sharing with me. >>>>>> But he told me that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. >>>>>> As he dug deeper into the same issues with the O.T. he ran >>>>>> into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last >>>>>> night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go >>>>>> any further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to >>>>>> believe in or teach my children". He knows enough now to >>>>>> completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted to. He >>>>>> doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God of >>>>>> our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He >>>>>> basically told me that i really don't want to go down this >>>>>> road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and basically get >>>>>> really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying >>>>>> "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead of >>>>>> me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the >>>>>> wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the >>>>>> moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your >>>>>> postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. >>>>>> And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I >>>>>> am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My >>>>>> fear is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know >>>>>> truth if what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the >>>>>> Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period >>>>>> of my life as a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling >>>>>> time. One thing that stand out to me know is not so much what >>>>>> I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and >>>>>> what I love about what I see in this group is the obvious >>>>>> love, kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see here. >>>>>> You all are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to >>>>>> identify with you in any way because others might think that i >>>>>> believe as you do and that would not be good. I proudly >>>>>> identify with you because you are all good and humble people >>>>>> who really do know how to live a life of love. Thank you for >>>>>> your example. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with >>>>>> Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming >>>>>> today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm >>>>>> of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all >>>>>> the noise around here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Blessings of Sabbath to you all. >>>>>> >>>>>> Denny >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/3a0d9f3c/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Sun Dec 2 18:32:14 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 18:32:14 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow Message-ID: Hey Bonnie, Thanks for the web link. I'll check it out. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun Dec 02 14:47:53 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] something in common, dark and snow James, Thank you for your response here as well as the depth of historical and archaeological information that you have on the web. I plan to buy your book "The Jesus Dynasty." I hope I am not a minority of one in this dialogue, who supports the position of Rabbi Lerner. I feel that to get to the truth we need to thoroughly understand a variety of opinions about these critical issues both American and Israeli, Christian, Jewish and Muslim, keeping in mind that there is great diversity within each of these categories. And I hope others will check out Rabbi Lerner's ideology and his website and his book. www.tikun.org "HEALING ISRAEL/PALESTINE, A Path to Peace and Reconciliation" I think that one good thing that has already come from the Annapolis Summit is their agreement to talk every 2 weeks. Rabbi Lerner talks about Annapolis on his website. I agree with you that this format would not be a proper format for an extensive political debate, but I also agree with John C. that it would be good to know the various positions. Maybe there will be another format. Meanwhile I am praying that this President and Condoliza Rice will succeed in their effort to bring a peaceful settlement that respects the human rights of all. Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 5:36 AM, James Tabor wrote: Dear Bonnie and all, Since you mentioned my name I thought I might offer a few thoughts. I would say we are much more of a dialoguing association of individuals than a "movement" per se, certainly in this new discussion that Ross Nichols has set up, which has drawn in a much wider group and I think is potentially open to anyone who is sincerely seeking our Creator God and to walk in his/her Ways, and wants to "dialogue" about "Roots of Faith" in a way respectful to the views of others. So in that sense the "tent" is pretty big, probably as wide as our respect for honest differences is. Since Ross is the moderator, not me, and has invited "whosoever will" to come and sit at this table, he will be the one to determine how the parameters work out. I think the reason there is such a good spirit of respect and harmony, even with differences, is that people involved have walked on many of the same paths and had similar experiences, even if ending up with different conclusions, plus there is a basic unity in seeking the God of Abraham as revealed in the Torah and Prophets. You should also not assume that our views of Israel and the current situation in the land are uniform. I don't think I have expressed my views on that subject but I do not share the view of those who advocate violent slaughter or removal of the Arab population on the West side of the Jordan, nor do I support the views of Rabbi Lerner, particularly on the 1967 borders and the Palestinian State he advocates. This is not to say one is opposed to the ethical principles of peace, justice, and righteousness and the ideals of a society built on biblical principles that he highlights. On the other hand I have a strong view that those who do not live there should not pass judgment from afar and that only those who have thrown their lot in with the permanent inhabitants of the Land can really view things from a perspective of being "inside" or part of the solution. That said I should emphasize that I only speak for myself here. I would be quite reluctant to engage in any kind of extensive political discussion involving the current situation in Israel in this kind of e-mail forum. I have known some in this group for nearly twenty years and I think when it comes to politics, domestic or Israeli, we are probably worlds apart from one another. I think we can all agree on various ideals, but when it comes to the matter of implementation in our flawed political world, most of us are looking to a future spoken of by the Prophets, when YHVH himself "returns," and the new Exodus spoken of by Jeremiah comes about, in which YHVH gives us shepherds of his own choosing. I have focused my own study and writings in this area on trying to understand and expound those prophetic texts. The potential "fit" between the future they envision and our present is always tenuous. In the meantime each of us has to make our political and social choices in our own communities and country. Warmest best, James On Dec 1, 2007, at 6:44 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Denny and John C, I think it is still too soon to say I am in this movement. I am actually still considering converting to Jewish, not Messianic Jewish, however, my Christian teacher says that I am moving in the right direction, after all Jesus was a Jew. I am still overwhelmed trying to figure out how "big tent" this movement is; there is so much to read, and it seems many different perspectives; yet everyone is respectful of everyone and I find that wonderful. If searching together for the truth by sharing w/o a requirement that everyone come to the same truth conclusions is the movement, then yes, I am in. However, if everyone has to be of the same belief for what needs to happen in the state of Israel today, then ... I am not moving in the same direction as James Tabor, but I would rather my Rabbi teacher explain why. I am a member of the Tikkun Community of Rabbi Lerner, an interfaith movement. www.tikun.org and currently reading his book, "HEALING ISRAEL/PALESTINE, A Path to Peace and Reconciliation" which is different from what Hanoch, James and Ross are saying ... so I am still wondering if I will be welcome in this dialogue because I really agree with Rabbi Lerner. I wish we could get them to dialogue with each other for us all to hear and maybe then we could really all come together to learn and work for God's mission ... a dream worth working for. Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hi Bonnie, I have never been in your area. But I hear it is beautiful. My email address is dennyj at mac.com. That website is not associated with my son any longer. Aaron Eby is the one responsible at this time. Aaron also writes for FFOZ http://www.ffoz.org . I think you would really like that site if you have never been there. Our son attends Beth Immanuel http://www.bethimmanuel.org where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches and leads. You surely have heard of Daniel and his works. We have had him and his family in our home a couple of times for Shabbat. Nice family. Good man. So, how did you get into this movement? Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hi Denny, I am in Chugiak, which is somewhat rural part of Anchorage Municipality, about 30 miles north of downtown, what we call the "bowl." I am studying with a Rabbi and exploring the possibility of converting to his inclusive kind of Judaism. He has a great respect for Jesus as a teacher and Rabbi but finite, not as a God or son of God, except perhaps he was a prophet. I like what your son is doing and thank you for that website. Is it OK to pass it on? How do you get your email address to be in the From: whereas mine is only my name. My email address is b.nelson@ alaska.com Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hi Bonnie, We live in Minnesota where it is snowing and blowing. Beautiful day to be inside enjoying the sabbath. What part of Alaska do you live in? We were on an Alaskan cruise last year. We went to Juneau, Skagway, Glacier Bay an the like. Beautiful country. Funny how many people we are meeting who are in this place. My wife and I have been at the core of the Christian church all of our lives. Worship leaders, teachers, children's ministry and even a music ministry for many years travelling the country. You are accurate in your description of being untethered. Feels strange to us and yet freeing. Yet I feel like we are anchored to some things that we need to let go of. It's a major cultural shift in our thinking. I never knew it would be this difficult. Sure is different than a simple little sinners prayer and your in. It sure is refreshing to get to know so many who are in the same place. There is just something about the Hebrew roots that seems so right to me. But, I have a long way to go. Don't know as I will ever get this figured out in my lifetime. Good thing God is gracious and loving. I need hang on to my childlike trust. He is my Abba. So again, where in Alaska are you? Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hi Denny, I really liked reading your email this morning and making me realize Alaska is not the only place it is dark with snow. I am wondering where you live. I also related to what you said about deconstruction and blank slate. It is like that for me even though I have never been Christian. I like being unburdened and adrift, it's like we are trying to create our maps, but doing it collaboratively is way more rewarding than alone. Bonnie On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: Good morning all, Shabbat Shalom! I am sitting here in the dark so as not to wake 8 of our grandchildren sleeping in a nest on the living room floor. It has been crazy around here. We had all 11 here last night. Can you imagine the noise? Believe it or not, my youngest son and I had a pretty decent conversation about many of the things in our dialogue group. I was sharing with him some of the things I have been thinking about and questioning him about where he is at now in his journey. Justin really has led the way into the Hebrew roots in our family and has been down this road much deeper than I care to go at this time. He and a bunch of friends started a very orthodox sabbath fellowship in their home a couple of years ago called Ateret Yeshua. ( http://www.ateretyeshua.org/ ) They are a very bright group and also very studious. The main group has since disbanded and now I see that they have morphed into somewhat of a different character. Anyway, our son and family have backed out of that experience and now consider themselves more Noahide in their understanding. It was quite a shock to those that knew them. We didn't really understand what happened, but after my conversation with him last night, I think I have a better idea. He started questioning the typical faith issues regarding the trinity, virgin birth etc. long ago. In his quest for answers he went deep into textual criticism and was at a place much like what you all have been sharing with me. But he told me that it didn't stop with questioning the N.T. As he dug deeper into the same issues with the O.T. he ran into many problems there, too. As he put it to me last night...."Dad, I looked over the fence and decided not to go any further for fear that there wouldn't be anything left to believe in or teach my children". He knows enough now to completely destroy a Christians faith if he wanted to. He doesn't want to by the way. He still has faith in the God of our fathers but it is a lot different than it used to be. He basically told me that i really don't want to go down this road. Many get depressed and lose all faith and basically get really messed up. Maybe there is some truth to the saying "Ignorance is bliss". I don't know. You all seem eons ahead of me in intellectual pursuit. Maybe I shall become a fly on the wall and just listen in. I really don't know where I am at the moment. I feel like a blank slate wanting God to write on me. I really appreciate all that you all have shared in your postings. They open my mind up to boldly consider other ideas. And yet there is still fear inside me concerning this path. I am unsure now how to pray and have a relationship with God. My fear is that it is not based on truth. And how can I know truth if what I have to base it on is not reliable, namely the Bible, the Tenach, the Prophets. I would describe this period of my life as a deconstruction period. It is a very unsettling time. One thing that stand out to me know is not so much what I BELIEVE, but how I LIVE. What draws me to Roots of Faith and what I love about what I see in this group is the obvious love, kindness and unity and love of Hashem that I see here. You all are awesome! The Christian way would tell me not to identify with you in any way because others might think that i believe as you do and that would not be good. I proudly identify with you because you are all good and humble people who really do know how to live a life of love. Thank you for your example. Well, the grandkids are now awake. Time to go love them with Hashem's love. By the way, we have a big snow storm coming today. They are saying up to a foot for our first winter storm of the season. I hope you aren't jealous. ;-) We'll attempt listening in this morning. Kind of hard with all the noise around here. Blessings of Sabbath to you all. Denny _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/0bed7e8a/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Sun Dec 2 18:43:23 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 15:43:23 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... In-Reply-To: References: <120120072232.23953.4751E0EE00043A9500005D9122243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> <822E8653-4C7C-4213-B490-32FD0C9E1E18@mac.com> Message-ID: <13CBCEB0-CC4D-4C4A-AB92-B7E554A7A9FB@alaska.com> Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 dictionary definitions? 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2: heathen, pagan 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > Hey Dick, > > Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am > content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to > participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion > with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles > to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with > things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the > things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the > Christians any longer. > My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the > words of encouragement, Dick. > > Shalom, > Denny > > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: > >> Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' >> s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G- >> d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the >> lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do >> not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and >> satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first >> teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The >> Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". >> I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the >> Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then >> the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am >> only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. >> Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I >> luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me >> a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love >> listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in >> there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try >> to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And >> I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. >> Love---Dick L. >> >> >> Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... >> >> >>> Thank you Glenn, >>> >>> I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of >>> such a commitment. >>> Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program >>> on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight >>> I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what >>> the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in >>> efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer >>> and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They >>> were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their >>> leaders. ;-) >>> >>> As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim >>> Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The >>> more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It >>> almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my >>> stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the >>> lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, >>> Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what >>> my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. >>> The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but >>> I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. >>> Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I >>> will listen and learn. >>> >>> Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way >>> around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the >>> likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our >>> relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. >>> >>> Shavua Tov >>> >>> Denny >>> >>> >>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: >>> >>>> Denny, >>>> >>>> I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. >>>> I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are >>>> meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and >>>> beseech Him on your behalf. >>>> >>>> As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank >>>> slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he >>>> spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will >>>> serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has >>>> not been an easy thing... >>>> >>>> I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but >>>> two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. >>>> >>>> Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you >>>> (2) search for Me with all your heart. >>>> >>>> Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, >>>> for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that >>>> (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. >>>> >>>> All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... >>>> >>>> Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and >>>> humbled. >>>> >>>> Glenn >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ > > Opinions expressed are mine alone. > (Unless you happen to agree.) > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/46e3dc15/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Sun Dec 2 18:44:37 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 18:44:37 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI Message-ID: Snowy? Wow. Yeah, yeah I get it! How about, "the YOUNG and the arrested!". Sorry, couldn't resist. Whatever you call it it's a hit. Been a busy day, I managed to set my car on fire. Electrical problem, not too much damage but it was exciting! It's a 1974 Dodge Charger. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun Dec 02 12:10:08 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI Hey John - A miniseries? You think so?? Maybe we could call it, "The YOUNG and the restless" :-) Sorry for the poor humor (Hanoch YOUNG, get it?), but it's already been a very tough Sunday at work, and it's only 1:06!! Greetings from snowy Brooklyn, Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:08 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI This could be a miniseries. Keep it coming Hanoch. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 08:06:15 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI The Rav never asked us to do anything 'violent' - it's not 'smart' for people who are the 'public faces' of a movement or origination (those that are at demonstrations, those that do the public speaking, etc) to be the ones doing the series 'actions' - they are too visible to the authorities. You would have to be an unknown - someone who no one associates with a particular organization. But one time we were all (the whole group and the Rav) were standing on a roof of a building in the Old City, looking over on the Temple Mount (which the arabs defile daily, with their presence, their mules, their cats, etc. He glanced toward the gold colored dome, which is built over the Even HaShetiya (which we believe to be the very foundation stone of the Earth -where Avraham to Yitzhak, etc), and sighed, saying, "...what you could do with two shoulderheld missiles, right now......just two missles.........sighh...okay, but that's not what you're here for..." I've often reflected back on that moment and wondered what the exact meaning of those comments were. Although I think I knew very clearly what he meant.... Anytime spent with Rav Kahane was a chance to be in the presence of a very knowledgeable and proud Jewish leader. Well, I had been proud for a long time, but I knew that I needed a lot more 'formal' Jewish education, and committed myself to that, once I returned to the U.S. That, and helping to lead JDL. That magical summer was drawing to a close, and we were preparing to go back to the States, to be the young Jewish leaders that were going to lead a 'revolution' among American Jewry, and 'spread the word,' so to speak. A week before we were due to return to New York, I got a cryptic message that simply said, "Friends in New York think you should STAY in Israel." That's all....at least until I found out the background, which had to do with those indictments before the summer. It appeared that my name came up a number of times in police/FBI wiretaps, and at that point, no one knew how 'involved' I was, or wasn't. There was one tape (you can't believe the stupidity of these guys who were making calls like this from their home phones!!) where my name was mentioned because they were trying to get me to be the driver for the guys that were going to shoot four bullets through the door of the Soviet residence (remember that one?). It turns out that they wanted to do it on Friday night, and I wouldn't go - because it was Shabbat; good thing, huh? People within the JDL leadership (the "JDL 'Adults' that we, the active youth, detested, because we did it all, and they claimed the credit with their friends) came to the Bronx to visit with my parents (Of Blessed Memory), to tell them (no details given..) that they needed to warn me not to come back to the U.S. When my mother pressed for details (her little boy had to be innocent, right?), they said that it seemed like I hadn't done anything, but that I was likely to be subpoenaed, and since I wouldn't testify against another Jew in court (in a case like this), I would wind up going to prison. My poor mom was scared to death...and I never forgave the idiots who frightened her for no reason. I came back, and as I explained before, I wasn't indicted....I came back to help lead the JDL, to help make a 'difference' (STILL working on that one), and to prepare for my own Aliyah - immigration to Israel (not going at that point was the single, biggest mistake of my life, with a ton of ramifications, which I am still dealing with today, right now, as I write this..) But there were far greater issues standing in the way of my 'making a difference' then the three guys who wound up going to prison. JDL was an organization that was torn apart....Rav Kahane was in Israel, he wanted funds to run for the Kenneset (Israel's parliament), and for his organization there, 'Kach' ('Thus'). The JDL men and women here, wanted the old-fashioned JDL, that would protect cemetaries, run street patrols, and chase after old Nazi criminals in the U.S. I will spare you from the politics, but there were splits, attempted coups, negative ads run by different factions in the "Jewish Press," Attempts to start the "New JDL," etc. It was a disaster...the whole "activist world" had changed while we were in Israel that summer. No JDL as we knew it, and Betar was focused on its summer camp for little kids... So, instead of leading anything, I tried to concentrate on finishing college, focused on learning Torah, and tried to find a Jewish organization that I could volunteer for; I tried several. For that year (and the previous one), I also had to work part time to help support my parents, since my dad had been on disability. I went back to those Shabbatonim (weekend events), using talks about the Russian trip as a springboard to talk about Jewish issues and particularly Aliyah (immigration to Israel). Let me be clear at this point - EVERY Jew belongs in Israel, PERIOD! There is no rationale that can excuse my failure (so far, at least!) to make my life in Israel, even though there were times I went there for job interviews, etc, but that's coming up a bit later...But remaining here - this has been hell, and I will never forgive myself for not only being here, but raising my daughters here, even though they seem to know exactly what they need to be doing with their lives at this point.....With G-d's help, maybe I'll at least have Israeli grandchildren...sighhhhhhh. But this is a failure that haunts me every single day... I spent the following year after college learning two nights a week in a Yeshiva, and then the following year, three full days/week, and working part time the other two days. I also took the entire summer of 1978 to learn in a special program that was all day long, for seven weeks, for those who did not grow up going to Yeshivot (the plural of 'Yeshiva'). I went to evening lectures, every chance I got. And there were plenty of them available. New York was in the midst of a tremendous Jewish educational revolution, with Rav Avi Weiss, and Rav Shlomo Riskin, and others teaching and sharing Torah. This was probably my first 'high point' in terms of Torah scholarship, I was now actually really into it. And actually becoming pretty knowledgeable. I was in loose touch with Rav Kahane (he wasn't the kind of guy you just called up and shot the breeze with, if you know what I mean), and tried to be involved every time he wanted to try to start up a new organization, or new "front group." But it seemed that activism as we knew it, was dead. It was under his (and Rav Avi Weiss') pressure to get married, that I did - at a very young age; a very young 22 (I was a baby - I had never lived away from home). There had been one girl on our Leadership program in Israel, and this was a sort of 'ideological match.' I had rarely dated (I was busy trying to save the Jewish world, remember?) and she was practically the first woman I ever went out with more then twice, who didn't break up with me (wow, that sounds truly pathetic, doesn't it? Wow..). What we felt about the 'ideology' and what we felt about Israel were what was important, or so it seemed. Having other things in common never seemed to come up......and I thought if I didn't change for the worse, she wouldn't either BIG assumption). We did wind up having two wonderful girls......but that came a bit later...a silver lining in every cloud, I guess. I went to Israel in the summer of 1982 to interview for jobs - I had to go on Aliyah, and needed to work, right? Previously, as an eager 19-20 year old, my job ambition was to be a hero in the Tzanchanim - the Israeli paratroopers. It didn't dawn on me, that the recently diagnosed scoliosis (37 degree curve of my spine), and my flat feet would prevent me from getting into a combat unit in the Israeli army. It didn't even penetrate my thick head when, after running the 1983 N.Y. Marathon (at a lean 164lbs.), I had constant knee pain, which lead me to have an arthroscopy. The doctors showed me on the scope (I had insisted to be fully awake for the whole procedure - stupid, I know...) that my left patella (knee cap) had a crack that ran the entire length of it. It was a squiggly line, and kind of looked like the Grateful Dead symbol. Bizarre... The docs told me that with a cracked patella I should no longer cycle, running was out, and I had to avoid all 'trauma' to my knee, even playing volleyball! I was composed, and I asked them, "Okay, I can do that, but for how long? I need to be a paratrooper, and have to jump from airplanes." The two docs looked at each other like I was a deranged alien, and said, "well, it's forever, and you have no problem with your knee jumping from a plane, you just can't land..." SO much for a career in the Israeli Army.... I went to 7 interviews that summer in 1982, and my timing was awful - the War in Lebanon (Part I) had just broken out, and funds were being slashed for all academic related positions. At this point, I already had an M.S. in Exercise Physiology, to go along with my BA in Physical Education. I was SURE there had to be a job for me....I was positive, I needed to be in Israel, and that Israel needed new immigrants, etc. But there wasn't...and not only that, every native Israeli (a "Sabra") that I spoke with thought I was NUTS for wanting to come to Israel under ANY circumstances, and I should stay in America, and get a Ph.D. in Exercise Physiology (hey, I didn't like it THAT much!). It was very depressing, very discouraging, and I was barely earning a living in NYC, and was unable to save - which was obviously going to be important for Israel. The other people I met with, suggested I go back to school, or come to Israel and go to school, but no one had jobs....not in a sports medicine related field, or teaching physical education. Israel had begun to absorb Soviet block immigrants, many who had Master of Sports credentials (or, were concert musicians, it seems..). So, I came back to the U.S., and kind of aimlessly tried to think of saving for Aliyah, but I was earning a crisp $33,000/year, and had to buy a car just to get to work...money was flying out, faster then it was coming in....But, I figured I'd try again in two years; China had its 5 year plans, and Hanoch would have his 2 year plans! Well, 1984 came, and my world changed forever, and seemed to be falling apart. Within a six month time period, I had three car accidents driving to work (yeah, you don't want me driving the group down the Billy Graham Parkway in Charlotte..). Within the midst of this, we had decided to have a baby. We got official confirmation that we were indeed 'expecting' on the very same day that my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer. Fortunately for dad, he didn't suffer much - he died within 50 days of diagnosis....He died late on a Wednesday night, the night before my birthday, shortly before midnight. He had been in bed with my mom, and told her he was sorry for being so much trouble, and that he loved her (my folks adored each other). They kissed, he closed his eyes, and evidently died within moments. I got the frantic call from my mom minutes later, that, "..I think daddy's dead..." and indeed he was....at age 64....We buried dad on Friday morning (it was too late to make arrangements for burial on Thursday), and we experienced a miscarriage that next Monday afternoon, at the start of what would have been the 4th month.....my whole world collapsed.....It was hard to think of Aliyah having just had a few months like that....hell, I could barely think straight....I turned back to studying Torah for solace... Hanoch Next Chapter: How I got to the UIWU, Ten Lost Tribes and the Har HaBayit - the Temple Mount. Oh, and maybe about my girls, too! :-) ---------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/44d8d317/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Dec 2 19:26:53 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 20:26:53 EST Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI Message-ID: Hey John - Wow..sorry 'bout the car...and I'm glad you picked up on my warped sense of humor. You know, I just posted #7, and it's actually the only one that I very disappointed with. It contained less anecdotes, and more of my BLACK mood....I'm sorry, I just felt compelled to tell it like it is. It covered a very bad time in my life, and looking back on it, it was even worse then I described. When I begin talking about the Temple Mount, the Lost Tribes and the UIWU, let alone my girls - things will brighten up considerably. But I kind of wish I could take #7 back....sighhhh....typical Hanoch, would've, should've and could've stuff.....I hope it doesn't sour everyone on what else I've written....I tend to fall into these "pity parties" lately....hope to bust out of it soon....B'Ezrat HaShem, with G-d's help. Take care John! Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/eff9ea23/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 19:38:38 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 17:38:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga...Part VII In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <247679.19408.qm@web57110.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hanoch, Your life story just keeps me glued to the computer screen....waiting to see what happens next. I am so glad that you feel comfortable enough to share this with all of us. I know that there are so many of us that you don't know. I am also grateful that it has been helpful for you to share with us. Waiting for Part VIII. Your Friend in Alabama, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: 1984... what a horrible year....Somehow, I got through that year, it was a blur ....and had to begin dealing with a mom who was trying to adjust to a life alone, and relied heavily upon me, and that I wasn't going to be a father after all....at least not at that time. It was strange, I remember telling my brother at the start of the shiva (the 7 days of ritual mourning) for my dad, that I don't know what I would do, if anything happened to our baby. The baby that if it was a boy, would be named after my father - a level of continuity, at least, and some consolation for such a sudden loss. You know, like the Lion King's "Circle of Life" thing? The baby that wasn't meant to be.....there had already been considerable tension/drama at home, the baby was supposed to bring us together....not meant to be.....on any level.... I was working for PepsiCo at the time, the parent company of Pepsi, and was asked to come back to work, immediately after the mourning period (those first seven days) were over. What they hadn't counted on, was that I was observing the practice of not shaving for the first 30 days of mourning. Although I had a thin baby-face (I know, I know you can't picture it...but it was true, LOL), I looked like a wolfman, with hair growing wildly on my face, chin and neck. Although one woman at work, who didn't realize there was a religious reason behind it, told me she liked the 'rough, caveman look' I was going for. Sighhhh...The company offered me (every employee) tickets to Michael Jackson's "Thriller" concert (he had just become a spokesman for Pepsi), and could not understand that as part of mourning, I did not go to concerts.....they just thought I was one weird Jew......That Fall, I was desperate to take some time off, and regain my focus....death, car accidents, the miscarriage...I NEEDED to get away. But I quickly found out that my vacation time had been retroactively taken away from me, due to the time I took off for mourning!! Man, I could have used some time........ I kept trying to figure out how to save for Aliyah, and how to get a job in Israel, but I now had a mom who depended upon me for emotional support.....I began to wonder if it was HaShem's plan that I should be there to support my mom....but that was just a rationalization. I had no idea why I couldn't 'push forward' with my Aliyah plans, but there was plenty of 'family' drama to keep me distracted... Continually, I tried to volunteer to write, or speak for various Jewish organizations, but no one seemed to have any use for me. I felt that I had all this incredible Torah that I learned from Rav Kahane, but no one to teach it to....or share it with....One good thing that happened that year - Rav Kahane got elected to the Kennest, despite all the efforts of the leftists and Hellenists to keep him silent. But his hoped for effect on the government was very short lived. Before the next election (where his Kach party was projected to get 12 seats, and be a major factor in forming a government), he was banned from running again. He was deemed to be 'racist...' by quoting from the Torah and the Rambam (Maimonides). What a travesty.... In June of 1985, we were blessed with a lovely daughter, Ayala Rivka, who was just the sweetest baby you could imagine.....blond hair, blue eyes (yeah, just like Hanoch, I know you're thinking) At the same time, I was hoping that someway, somehow, we could all go on Aliyah....but as the saying goes, "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail..." I got my first credit card at that time, and soon found myself accumulating debt. I ignored the pressing 'relationship' issues in my life, by focusing on my lovely daughter. That summer (1985), I took Ayala in her carriage, to hear Rav Kahane speak at a local shul. At the end of the speech, I approached him, wheeling the carriage. We hadn't 'touched base' in a number of years at that point, and he clearly assumed that I must have made Aliyah, that I was in Israel. I knew it, when he looked up and saw me, with the carriage, and said, in a truly surprised tone, "What are you still doing here???" He was soon surrounded with admirers, and I couldn't get near him. Those were the last words he ever spoke to me (he was murdered in New York in 1990)......I felt like a low-life dirtbag, for being in America, but was sure my job luck (being highly qualified, but underpaid) would some how change, miraculously. In Judaism, we are told not to depend on miracles, but I clearly was (looking at it with hindsight).... There was a young guy in shul that I heard was "involved" in a recent spate of bombings (no casualties, just warning stuff), I'll just call him by his last initial, 'C' Well, C came up to me one Shabbat, and asked me, "Hey - aren't you Hanoch Young? I heard you used to be an activist" OUCH!!!! That hurt, more then you can imagine, how did I go from an 'activist' to a has been, over night? Sighhhhhhh Poor C, he got involved with this new version of what I'll call, "Jewish Armed Resistance" and was caught and convicted (along with several others..). He was a sweet, good looking guy, maybe 20 - 21 years old, and was about to be sentenced. The weekend before, he took an overdose of sleeping pills and passed away in his sleep. Accident? Suicide? I'll never know, and neither will anyone else...but what a shame......he was such a nice guy... My salary gradually rose to $44,000, as my youngest daughter Kyra Miriam was born, in May, 1988. That amount of money, for a family of four in New York? There just wasn't enough money to go around. The number of credit cards grew, as did the amounts charged on them.....it was becoming harder, and harder to envision Aliyah.... My daughters names are actually a 'play' on each other: 'Ayala' means female deer, D-E-E-R while 'Kyra' comes from 'Yakira' which means dear, D-E-A-R......I know it seems a bit lame now, but I thought I was really clever then....sighhhhhhhh.... I was the 'primary care provider' for my daughters, which was the politically correct term for: "Mr. Mom." Although it was very, very difficult to juggle work responsibilities, and make all the class birthday parties, and special assemblies, I did, and I was thrilled to be such a huge part of their lives. My mom was a BIG help in raising the girls, and they adored her, and listened to everything she said, with no question (ME, they questioned!! LOL). In fact, they were so well behaved when they were with her, that people used to say we should rent them out, to couples who were considering having children!! And mom was responsible for MY sanity, encouraging me unconditionally, and being as supportive as any human being could. I have not been the same without her....but that comes later... Both girls started their education in Jewish schools, and began attending a Yeshiva, a Jewish Day School. The payments were almost $6,000/child (and those are post-tax dollars, folks...), but I was determined that MY children would have a real Jewish education, and wouldn't have to pursue it, post-college, like I did. Little did I know that when they reached High School, it would begin costing $16,000/year for each of them, with summer camp costing $6,000/each....as a Financial Planner friend pointed out - I was using ALL of my disposable income for my girls education, and then some!! But I would do anything for my girls, I wouldn't walk out on them, and I wouldn't scrimp on their education. But more on them, a bit later. As I mentioned, some new group began a series of bombings on behalf of some Jewish causes, and it turns out that they included some "old-timers" - guys from MY era.....so, guess who became a suspect again? At this point, I was running a Fitness Center for a large New York law firm, and picked up the phone one morning, to hear someone introduce themselves as,: Larry Wack, of the FBI "Joint Terrorist Task Force!" I couldn't figure out how he got my number at work, and he wasn't volunteering much info at all, but firing lots of questions at me. Nicely, but firmly. Now, the Feds aren't so frightening when you KNOW you didn't do anything, and they had NOTHING on you :-), right? Not really....'cause they're always trying to trick you. Firstly - why call me? Like I said, it was old-timers" (someone active 10 years before) that were involved, there was a suspect that actually lived in the Bronx near me when I was growing up, and then lived in the other half of the building (think LARGE apartment buildings, folks) I moved into when Ayala was born - a total coincidence. But the best part - they found 11 weapons and explosives at a guys house, whose last name happened to be - Young.....no relation to me, but they didn't know that! Larry called me often, sometimes at work, sometimes at home, cajoling, threatening, playing 'dumb' sometimes. He knew the Shabbat I had visited my friend Baruch in Kiryat Arba back in '82 (remember when I carried the Ak-47, it was THAT Shabbat). He told me that I was a good looking guy, and photographed well. I asked him to please send me copies, so I could show my kids. He never did..LOL Eventually, they realized that I truly didn't have any info that would be of value to them, and stopped calling. And then I found out how they got my work #. Turns out that they had gone to my building's management office, and asked for my work contact #. Janet, the woman in the office said that I was a very nice man, and a very good father, so no, she wouldn't give them ANY information! Okay they said, but they would come into her office and empty every, single file on the floor. That worked - she gave them my work #..... I tried to focus on my Torah studies, but with two little girls, too many hours at work, a mom who needed me....sighhh....and what about Aliyah? I felt like I was sinking into quicksand, slowly sinking, with no way out. It wasn't supposed to be like this..... Coming up - the UIWU, and my life's mission(s)...or so I thought.... --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/b5796d31/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Dec 2 19:18:05 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 19:18:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now In-Reply-To: <4865A96D-64D4-44EF-8AFB-2DE61C7DF9FF@alaska.com> Message-ID: <008b01c8354a$5b47bfe0$653c66c9@bettygivin> Thank-you, Bonnie, for this article about the history of Hanukkah from Rabbi Zadok. I agree that the focus needs to be on the miracle of the military defeat of the Greeks and Hellenists and the reclamation of the temple. The Hanukkah lights are reflective of that victory and the faith that accompanied it in days of old. Today, when we place a Hanukkiah/Menorah in our windows, (whether we are Jews or Gentiles in solidarity with the Jews), it helps to connect us to the miracle of the past and to let that message shine forth. I especially appreciated his words in the last section, which invites all to kindle the lights of Hanukkah! "Light and right will triumph, when we stand up and shine the Light >> and do what is right. >> >> Let us all thank G-d, each in our own way, for His bringing us to >> know the truth of His Ways." Chag Samaech to all! Betty/Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 2:49 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now >> 22 Kislev 5768; December 2, 2007 >> >> Hanukah begins this Tuesday night. >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Hanuka, The Real Story, Then and Now >> By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 1994-2007 by Ariel Bar >> Tzadok. All >> rights reserved. >> >> >> >> Let me begin by setting the record straight. Hanukah is a >> celebration of >> victory in war. The miracle of Hanukah was that the few defeated >> the many in >> battle. Many today erroneously believe that the primary miracle of >> Hanukah >> was the miracle of a one-day supply of oil for the menorah staying >> lit eight >> days. Yet, in the additional prayer about Hanukah inserted into the >> daily >> Amidah prayer no mention of this miracle occurs. Indeed, the >> prayer of >> thanksgiving that we recite for Hanukah is one of victory at war, >> not one of >> a miracle of lights. In essence, Hanukah is a holiday celebrating a >> Jewish >> religious military victory over the forces of ancient secularism >> (Hellenism). >> >> In accordance to American style commercialization, Hanukah has become >> secularized and observed as somewhat a "Jewish" Christmas. Its true >> meaning >> has become lost in history. Secular Jews mostly believe that >> Hanukah is all >> about dreidels and latkis (potato pancakes) and celebrate it for its >> cultural value, without any real knowledge of what really happened, >> or its >> spiritual significance. Before we move along to discuss what really >> happened, let us remember that while the two holidays have very >> different >> meanings, historically, they are in a fact connected. >> >> It is no coincidence that Hanukah falls on the 25th day of Kislev >> and that >> the other (pagan/Christian) holiday falls on the 25th day of >> December. >> According to the Sefer HaMacabim (I Macabees 1:59), the Greeks >> decided to >> profane the holy Temple in Yerushalayim specifically on the 25th >> day of that >> month, because that day was their pagan holiday Saturnalia, >> honoring the >> winter solstice. Their holiday celebrated the lengthening of the >> winter >> days. They called their holiday the "birthday" of the sun. >> Hundreds of years later when the pagan Roman/Greek ceremonies were >> adopted >> by Christianity, the winter "birthday" of the sun, became the >> "birthday" of >> the new "son." >> Thus many Christmas pagan rituals were born. I am only briefly >> describing >> the Saturnalia as it applies here. More information about it is >> readily >> available online. >> Mind you, information about the pagan origins of the Christmas >> celebrations >> did not originate with Jewish authors. There are many Christian >> groups of >> different denominations that are aware of the true history of the >> Christmas >> holiday. One can easily do a web search and read numerous articles >> from >> Christian authors to verify this. I do not wish to surprise or >> offend anyone >> and I certainly do not intend that by offering this information to >> attack >> anyone's personal faith. My purpose in this essay is simply to >> relate a >> historical account based upon the available evidence. >> >> Now, back to our topic. >> >> The Macabees, with full intent rededicated the holy Temple to >> HaShem three >> years to the day after it was defiled, on the 25th of Kislev, >> specifically >> to make a statement against the religion of the Greeks. The day >> that the >> pagan Greeks celebrated victory over the Jews and their religion >> became the >> day that the Jews took their revenge and celebrated their victory >> over the >> Greeks. >> >> One must understand that according to the Sefer HaMacabim, which is >> the most >> authoritative historical record of this time period, the war of the >> Macabees >> was two fold. It was fought against both the pagan Greek invaders >> and with >> their Jewish sympathizers, whose number was the majority of the >> country. In >> essence, the Maccabee war was a Jewish civil war of the religious >> verses the >> non-religious. Sefer HaMacabim is very clear on this point. This >> was first a >> battle of Jew verses Jew (I Macabees 2:27). >> >> The war began when Matityah(u) Ben Yohanan HaKohen (the priest) >> struck down >> a Jew who was coming to offer a sacrifice on an altar of idolatry in >> Modi'in. Only after he killed the rebellious Jew did Matityah then >> kill the >> supervising Greek officer. His family and followers then fled for >> the hills, >> knowing that both Greek and Hellenistic Jew would hunt them down at >> all >> costs. >> >> Matityahu and his band were very few in numbers and were not well >> versed in >> the ways of war. Although they had zeal and Kedusha (holiness), >> these were >> not enough to win a war. When a large group of Torah faithful men, >> women and >> children were cornered by the Greeks on one Shabat, they refused to >> fight >> because to do so would violate Shabat law. The pagan Greeks >> slaughtered over >> a thousand innocent souls on that day. Only after this incident was >> the >> Halakha ordained that "Pikuah Nefesh Doheh HaShabat" (saving lives >> takes >> precedence over the Shabat; ref. I Mac. 2:41). >> >> Sefer HaMacabim recounts that the Macabees then met and teamed up >> with a >> group referred to as the Hasidim, who were "war-like Israelites, >> every one a >> volunteer for the Torah" (1 Mac. 2:42). It was only by receiving >> these >> reinforcements that Yehuda Maccabee had enough men with military >> experience >> to conduct guerrilla warfare and acts of terrorism against the >> superior >> forces of the Greeks and their Hellenistic Jewish allies. >> >> The identity of these Hasidim is a matter of great importance, for >> we see >> that prior to the Maccabee revolt there already were pious Torah >> observant >> G-d fearing Jews who had separated themselves from Hellenistic >> Israel. >> Although these Hasidim did not start the war, they nonetheless >> fought it. >> Some recent scholars have attempted to associate these Hasidim with >> the >> Essenes or others similar to the Dead Sea Scroll community. >> However, this association cannot be not accurate. At this time in >> history, >> the Essenes and the Dead Sea Scroll community were in open conflict >> with >> what they considered the unclean priesthood of Yerushalayim. Since >> Matityahu >> was the then a deposed priest of Yerushalayim, it is almost certain >> that the >> Essenes and their like would have wished Matityahu "good riddance" >> and would >> be glad to see him go. As his opponents, the Essenes would not have >> jumped >> on the Maccabee bandwagon to help Matityah and Klal Yisrael (the >> general >> Jewish public). >> >> This political/religious divide in ancient Israel is reflected >> today between >> those who would fight for the Jewish state and those who would >> abstain from >> any fighting, claiming themselves to be religiously superior, just >> as did >> the Essenes of old. Ultimately, the Essenes and their way passed into >> eternity leaving only a footnote in history. One wonders if modern >> groups >> embracing the same attitude will face the same fate and ultimately >> fade away >> into history in spite of however powerful and influential they >> appear today. >> >> >> The Gemara (Berakhot 5) enlightens us as to the true identity of >> these >> mysterious Hasidim who assisted the Macabees. They were known as >> the Hasidim >> Rishonim (the pious ones of old). These holy individuals were known >> for >> their pietistic practices and teachings. They were well loved by >> the rank >> and file everyday Jew, for unlike Essenes, these Hasidim never >> elevated >> themselves and separated from their fellow Jews. They were very >> much like >> today's religious "Zionist" camp, who are devoted fully to a life >> of Torah >> and who still see it as a high priority to serve in the army. >> >> These Hasidim Rishonim however did separate themselves from the >> Hellenistic >> world around them and associated exclusively within the realm of >> Torah >> Judaism. As such, another name given to these Hasidim was the >> "Perushim" >> (the ones who separate). Today most know this group as the >> Pharisees, who in >> Christian sources are wrongly portrayed as being hypocritical >> opponents to >> Yeshu. This is but one of many examples of Greco-Roman anti- >> Semitism that >> was adopted and incorporated into the Christian religion. >> >> The Maccabee war against the Greeks and the Hellenistic Jews waged >> for three >> years. It took that long for Yehuda Maccabee and his forces to >> conquer >> Yerushalayim. Upon entering the Temple, they found that it had been >> used for >> pagan idol worship. >> Everything therein was contaminated. Everything had to be replaced. >> Even the >> altar stone was removed and secreted away somewhere under the >> Temple Mount. >> Sefer HaMacabim (4:46) states that the stone was hidden until a navi >> (prophet) would come and reveal to them what to do with it. A new >> altar >> stone was put in place. After many days of preparation, the Temple >> was >> rededicated. The dedication ceremony, like those before it was to >> last eight >> days. Yehuda Maccabee then ordained that these eight days were to be >> remembered and observed throughout our generations. Thus, we have the >> holiday of Hanukah. >> >> Stop for a moment. Did you notice what is missing from this story >> as told in >> the most accurate historical record of this time? The miracle of the >> consecration oil lasting eight days (instead of just one) is not >> mentioned. >> The origins of this story are found in the Gemara and not in the >> historical >> text. This is not to insinuate that the miracle did not occur, G-d >> forbid. >> For if our Sages said that it happened, then it happened. >> >> It is however, possible that the miracle was kept quiet and only >> the Jews >> most closely associated with the Temple knew about it at the time >> when the >> Sefer HaMacabim was authored. More likely, the reason why the >> miracle is not >> mentioned is that the authors of Sefer HaMacabim did not want to >> overshadow >> the real miracle, which was the victory at war, as shown by the Al >> HaNisim >> prayer inserted into the Amidah. All too often people pay attention >> to the >> wrong things. If the miracle of the oil were emphasized, then >> people in >> later generations would forget that it took a war, which was >> miraculously >> won, in order to make the miracle happen. >> >> The lesson we learn from the Hanukah story is that in spite of how >> bleak >> things look for Torah and for those Jews faithful to it, when we >> put our >> trust in HaShem and act upon it, we become the instruments of >> manifesting >> His salvation. The Hasidim Rishonim who joined forces with the >> Macabees were >> known to be powerful practitioners of the mystical arts. Many of >> their >> number were known as the "Yordei HaMerkava" (those who stand before >> the >> Throne of G-d). They knew the secrets of the names of the angels. >> They had >> the power to call for Divine intervention. Yet, in spite of all this >> spiritual power, nothing availed against the enemies of Torah until >> the >> righteous combined their spiritual power with military might. >> ..... >> >> With all their victories, the Macabees only succeeded in bringing >> temporary >> relief to Israel. Their victory soon slipped away. In order to >> protect >> themselves from further Greek aggression, Yehuda Maccabee himself >> signed a >> mutual defense treaty with none other than Rome. Yehuda Maccabee >> initially >> saved Israel because he trusted in G-d. Yet, once he lost his faith >> in G-d >> and instead placed his faith in men (in this case, Roman military >> might), he >> unknowingly sealed the fate of the Jewish people and brought >> destruction >> upon us all. Soon after this pact was made, Yehuda Maccabee met his >> fate and >> was killed in battle. Let this lesson of history serve as a >> reminder to >> those today who wish to put their faith in the might of others >> instead of >> having faith in the Might of G-d. >> >> The state of Jewish and Torah affairs today is at a great low. As >> long as >> our religious leaders can be manipulated through fear, money and >> power, we >> will not have a new Matityah Maccabee. Until all our religious >> youth learn >> the art of war, not one of them can ever become the next Yehuda >> Maccabee. >> The forces of our enemies rejoice in the weakened state of Jews and >> Torah >> Judaism. >> >> Our anti-Semitic enemies of today seek to destroy Torah Judaism >> with vigor >> equal to our enemies of old. Without a Yehuda Maccabee today, we >> must ask if >> after all these years, will our enemies finally succeed in >> silencing the >> voice of Torah? We hope not and pray not. We defiantly proclaim, >> "Shema >> Yisrael" (Hear O'Israel, Deut 6:4; the pledge of Torah allegiance). >> Yet, >> with every cry, lesser and lesser sincerity is heard in the voices. >> If we do >> not do something fast to turn the religious community back to being >> truly >> religious in Maccabee style, there might not be much left of the >> religious >> community after the next decade or two. >> >> As we light the Hanukah lights (with pure olive oil, rather than with >> candles), we must remember that Torah is the light of the world and >> it is >> our job as Jews to make sure that the true light shines. This very >> well >> necessitates that each of us takes on the role of warrior, one who >> stands >> for Biblical morality in face of modern secular atheist attacks. As >> shown by >> the Macabees and the Hasidim centuries ago, unless those in the Torah >> community take action to protect the Torah way of life, nothing in >> the world >> will be able to help us. >> >> If we do take the right action and fight for what is right, to >> defend and >> protect ourselves, then nothing in the world will be able to stop >> us. The >> American patriot, Benjamin Franklin summed it up when he said, "G-d >> helps >> those who help themselves." As Rabbi Tarphon has said, "it is not >> up to you >> to complete the work, but you are not free to avoid your share." >> Hillel >> said, "if not now, then when." >> We know what must be done. Will we now do it? >> >> A Word to Non-Jews >> >> Hanukah is a holiday that the non-Jews can also celebrate. For this >> is an >> occasion of celebrating the victory of truth over falsehood, >> morality over >> depravity, and good over bad. >> >> If they wish, non-Jews can set up for themselves menorahs and light >> candles >> every night. However, they may not recite the specific blessings >> reserved >> for this lighting. The first blessing includes the word >> "vitzivanu" (who has >> commanded us). No non- Jew can say that G-d commanded them to light a >> menorah. >> >> The second blessing includes the words "Sh'asah Nisim >> L'Avoteynu" (who did >> miracles for our fathers). The miracle was not done for the fathers >> of the >> non- Jews; therefore, they cannot honestly say these words. >> >> Thus, non-Jews may certainly join the Jewish people in celebrating >> this >> joyous victory, for the message of this victory is the same for us >> all; >> Light and right will triumph, when we stand up and shine the Light >> and do >> what is right. >> >> Let us all thank G-d, each in our own way, for His bringing us to >> know the >> truth of His Ways. >> >> Hag Hanukah Sameah. >> >> ----------------------------------------------------- >> Shalom, Ariel Bar Tzadok >> > > _______________________________________________ From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 2 19:37:53 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 01:37:53 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445888387-1196645922-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1790930186-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Hey Pat, Personally, I fully agree with your assessment of Mishnah and Torah. Just a point of debate though. I am one who believes that the process of Torah being written on our hearts was begun with Yeshua. The issue of divinity aside I believe that as Messiah, his example is indeed the "light" that came into the world. While it has taken much of my life iI have to say that this light is the reason I am studying Torah today. So my point is that while I certainly look forward to the completion of God's promise, I am convinced it has already begun. What say you? Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: patricia robbins Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:23:10 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud Hi Roy, ? I don't believe it nullifies, replaces or should in any way be placed above G-d's Word.? I truly believe it?of utmost importance to?diligently study?T'NaKh, pray and?actively listen for His guidance in all things. ? If we turn to?something as?the final word?for?every interpretation, can?that not become an idol to us?? Can?it not?divert our eyes from studying His Word and looking to Him to direct us?? Should we not be looking forward to the day when Torah is written on our hearts (Jer:31:33, or 31:32 in the Hebrew Bible) ? ? I think I look at?the words of Mishnah and Talmud?as if I were reading any wise, Torah-observant person's opinion on specific matters.? Their opinion may be venerated and wonderful, but I still weigh it in light of God's Word because He said that His Word is not too hard for us to understand: ? "...if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the L-RD thy G-d, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are WRITTEN (as opposed to orally spoken) in this book of the Tora, and if thou turn to the L-RD thy G-d with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.????????? For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.? It is not in heaven, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?? Nor is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?? But the word is very near to thee, in thy mouth, and IN THY HEART, that thou mayst do it."???? Deuteronomy 30: 10-14 ? There are even?some interpretations in Mishnah and Talmud?that I feel negate G-d's Word.? ? >From what I have been able to glean from my own Rabbi, and subsequently from others, in the understanding of such "rulings,"?it is considered that those who sit in Moses' seat have been given authority even to?change what God has said.? I just have not been able to buy this.? Perhaps I have misunderstood what they are saying, but I don't think so. ? Mishnah and Talmud are very good subjects for dialogue.? I will be most interested in hearing other opinions.? I hold some rather strong ones on this subject, but I want to correct any stakes I may have put into the ground that should be moved!? ? Endeavoring to remain teachable, ? Pat ? ? ---------------- From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:59:10 -0600 I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud.? I suppose I need to start. ?I have some questions you all may be able to help me with.? I understand it is the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form?? I have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah?? Do you think the Talmud is really God?s words or tradition? ? Thanks ?Roy ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole ? Rick,? ? Good question. - ?What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole?? Or was everyone bitten? ? ?In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far.? However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were ?The people? complained and God sent the serpent?s. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, ?and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live?. ? Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, ?and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 ? The word ? man - ?in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some.? If we go back to the first of the chapter we see ?the people spoke against God, and against Moses?. ?I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. ????Rashi in the Chumash says, ?when the people spoke against God and Moses, ?they placed the servant on a par with his Master????? Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the? church have done with Jesus? ???The Chumash goes on to say ? our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) ? The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu.? ? ?Jewish Encyclop. ? Shalom ? ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... ? What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole?? Or was everyone bitten? Rick ? ? ? _______________________________________________ From JCARLSO at entergy.com Sun Dec 2 19:44:28 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 19:44:28 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI Message-ID: Ahh, don't sweat it, we can take it. I haven't had a chance to read #7 yet, much dialogue today and some lengthy ones. Good stuff. Getting there now. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun Dec 02 19:26:53 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI Hey John - Wow..sorry 'bout the car...and I'm glad you picked up on my warped sense of humor. You know, I just posted #7, and it's actually the only one that I very disappointed with. It contained less anecdotes, and more of my BLACK mood....I'm sorry, I just felt compelled to tell it like it is. It covered a very bad time in my life, and looking back on it, it was even worse then I described. When I begin talking about the Temple Mount, the Lost Tribes and the UIWU, let alone my girls - things will brighten up considerably. But I kind of wish I could take #7 back....sighhhh....typical Hanoch, would've, should've and could've stuff.....I hope it doesn't sour everyone on what else I've written....I tend to fall into these "pity parties" lately....hope to bust out of it soon....B'Ezrat HaShem, with G-d's help. Take care John! Hanoch ________________________________ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/3a95f3e7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Dec 2 19:44:08 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 20:44:08 EST Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga...Part VII Message-ID: Thank you Tammy....just when I was beginning to fill myself with self-doubt (a therapist would say it stems from poor self-image, or some psycho-bable like that), I read your note. And now I feel SO encouraged. Thanks for being interested, and thanks for helping me do this, I evidently have a need to write it..... I've actually been working on Number 8 now, hope it can go out by tomorrow...... Your pal in the Big City, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/9ec27674/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Dec 2 19:47:19 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 19:47:19 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: <13CBCEB0-CC4D-4C4A-AB92-B7E554A7A9FB@alaska.com> Message-ID: <009d01c8354e$70f62580$653c66c9@bettygivin> Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non-Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of course, all can speak for themselves. Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many horrific things have been done to them in the name of Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention that because it just came up. Shalom and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 dictionary definitions? 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2: heathen, pagan 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hey Dick, Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the Christians any longer. My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the words of encouragement, Dick. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G-d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: Denny, I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) search for Me with all your heart. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/d1e6bb03/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Dec 2 19:50:35 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 20:50:35 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now Message-ID: Yes, Bonnie - thanks very much; I've read a lot of what Rav Bar Tzadok has written, and I really relate to him. Don't be at all concerned about your views and the diversity of opinions...mine are pretty much off the charts! As long as we can all 'agree to disagree' and keep a smile on our faces, then we'll be okay! And Betty, so beautifully put...sighhhhhh......we should create 'holiday' cards where you could inscribe the messages. I LOVE to read what you write! All the best from NYC, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/909fce4d/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 19:59:34 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 20:59:34 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: THE YOUNG AND THE ARRESTED!!!!!!!!!!!! I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!! Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VIDate: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 18:44:37 -0600From: JCARLSO at entergy.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Snowy? Wow.Yeah, yeah I get it!How about, "the YOUNG and the arrested!". Sorry, couldn't resist.Whatever you call it it's a hit.Been a busy day, I managed to set my car on fire. Electrical problem, not too much damage but it was exciting! It's a 1974 Dodge Charger."Be excellent to each other" Bill & TedJohn C.--------------------------Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device-----Original Message-----From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun Dec 02 12:10:08 2007Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VIHey John - A miniseries? You think so?? Maybe we could call it, "The YOUNG and the restless" :-) Sorry for the poor humor (Hanoch YOUNG, get it?), but it's already been a very tough Sunday at work, and it's only 1:06!! Greetings from snowy Brooklyn, Hanoch-----Original Message-----From: carlson_john at bellsouth.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSent: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:08 amSubject: Re: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VIThis could be a miniseries. Keep it coming Hanoch.Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T-----Original Message-----From: YoungBarzel at aol.comDate: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 08:06:15To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part VIThe Rav never asked us to do anything 'violent' - it's not 'smart' for peoplewho are the 'public faces' of a movement or origination (those that are atdemonstrations, those that do the public speaking, etc) to be the ones doing theseries 'actions' - they are too visible to the authorities. You would have tobe an unknown - someone who no one associates with a particular organization. But one time we were all (the whole group and the Rav) were standing on a roofof a building in the Old City, looking over on the Temple Mount (which thearabs defile daily, with their presence, their mules, their cats, etc. Heglanced toward the gold colored dome, which is built over the EvenHaShetiya (which we believe to be the very foundation stone of the Earth -whereAvraham to Yitzhak, etc), and sighed, saying, "...what you could do with twoshoulderheld missiles, right now......just two missles.........sighh...okay, butthat's not what you're here for..." I've often reflected back on that momentand wondered what the exact meaning of those comments were. Although I think Iknew very clearly what he meant.... Anytime spent with Rav Kahane was a chance to be in the presence of a veryknowledgeable and proud Jewish leader. Well, I had been proud for a long time,but I knew that I needed a lot more 'formal' Jewish education, and committedmyself to that, once I returned to the U.S. That, and helping to lead JDL. That magical summer was drawing to a close, and we were preparing to go back tothe States, to be the young Jewish leaders that were going to lead a'revolution' among American Jewry, and 'spread the word,' so to speak. A weekbefore we were due to return to New York, I got a cryptic message that simplysaid, "Friends in New York think you should STAY in Israel." That's all....atleast until I found out the background, which had to do with those indictmentsbefore the summer. It appeared that my name came up a number of times inpolice/FBI wiretaps, and at that point, no one knew how 'involved' I was, orwasn't. There was one tape (you can't believe the stupidity of these guys who weremaking calls like this from their home phones!!) where my name was mentionedbecause they were trying to get me to be the driver for the guys that were goingto shoot four bullets through the door of the Soviet residence (remember thatone?). It turns out that they wanted to do it on Friday night, and I wouldn'tgo - because it was Shabbat; good thing, huh? People within the JDL leadership (the "JDL 'Adults' that we, the active youth,detested, because we did it all, and they claimed the credit with their friends)came to the Bronx to visit with my parents (Of Blessed Memory), to tell them (nodetails given..) that they needed to warn me not to come back to the U.S. Whenmy mother pressed for details (her little boy had to be innocent, right?), theysaid that it seemed like I hadn't done anything, but that I was likely to besubpoenaed, and since I wouldn't testify against another Jew in court (in a caselike this), I would wind up going to prison. My poor mom was scared todeath...and I never forgave the idiots who frightened her for no reason. I cameback, and as I explained before, I wasn't indicted....I came back to help leadthe JDL, to help make a 'difference' (STILL working on that one), and to preparefor my own Aliyah - immigration to Israel (not going at that point was thesingle, biggest mistake of my life, with a ton of ramifications, which I amstill dealing with today, right now, as I write this..) But there were far greater issues standing in the way of my 'making adifference' then the three guys who wound up going to prison. JDL was anorganization that was torn apart....Rav Kahane was in Israel, he wanted funds torun for the Kenneset (Israel's parliament), and for his organization there,'Kach' ('Thus'). The JDL men and women here, wanted the old-fashioned JDL, thatwould protect cemetaries, run street patrols, and chase after old Nazi criminalsin the U.S. I will spare you from the politics, but there were splits,attempted coups, negative ads run by different factions in the "Jewish Press,"Attempts to start the "New JDL," etc. It was a disaster...the whole "activistworld" had changed while we were in Israel that summer. No JDL as we knew it,and Betar was focused on its summer camp for little kids... So, instead of leading anything, I tried to concentrate on finishing college,focused on learning Torah, and tried to find a Jewish organization that I couldvolunteer for; I tried several. For that year (and the previous one), I alsohad to work part time to help support my parents, since my dad had been ondisability. I went back to those Shabbatonim (weekend events), using talksabout the Russian trip as a springboard to talk about Jewish issues andparticularly Aliyah (immigration to Israel). Let me be clear at this point -EVERY Jew belongs in Israel, PERIOD! There is no rationale that can excuse myfailure (so far, at least!) to make my life in Israel, even though there weretimes I went there for job interviews, etc, but that's coming up a bitlater...But remaining here - this has been hell, and I will never forgive myselffor not only being here, but raising my daughters here, even though they seem toknow exactly what they need to be doing with their lives at this point.....WithG-d's help, maybe I'll at least have Israeli grandchildren...sighhhhhhh. Butthis is a failure that haunts me every single day... I spent the following year after college learning two nights a week in aYeshiva, and then the following year, three full days/week, and working parttime the other two days. I also took the entire summer of 1978 to learn in aspecial program that was all day long, for seven weeks, for those who did notgrow up going to Yeshivot (the plural of 'Yeshiva'). I went to eveninglectures, every chance I got. And there were plenty of them available. New Yorkwas in the midst of a tremendous Jewish educational revolution, with Rav AviWeiss, and Rav Shlomo Riskin, and others teaching and sharing Torah. This wasprobably my first 'high point' in terms of Torah scholarship, I was now actuallyreally into it. And actually becoming pretty knowledgeable. I was in loose touch with Rav Kahane (he wasn't the kind of guy you just calledup and shot the breeze with, if you know what I mean), and tried to be involvedevery time he wanted to try to start up a new organization, or new "frontgroup." But it seemed that activism as we knew it, was dead. It was under his(and Rav Avi Weiss') pressure to get married, that I did - at a very young age;a very young 22 (I was a baby - I had never lived away from home). There hadbeen one girl on our Leadership program in Israel, and this was a sort of'ideological match.' I had rarely dated (I was busy trying to save the Jewishworld, remember?) and she was practically the first woman I ever went out withmore then twice, who didn't break up with me (wow, that sounds truly pathetic,doesn't it? Wow..). What we felt about the 'ideology' and what we felt aboutIsrael were what was important, or so it seemed. Having other things in commonnever seemed to come up......and I thought if I didn't change for the worse, shewouldn't either BIG assumption). We did wind up having two wonderfulgirls......but that came a bit later...a silver lining in every cloud, I guess. I went to Israel in the summer of 1982 to interview for jobs - I had to go onAliyah, and needed to work, right? Previously, as an eager 19-20 year old, myjob ambition was to be a hero in the Tzanchanim - the Israeli paratroopers. Itdidn't dawn on me, that the recently diagnosed scoliosis (37 degree curve of myspine), and my flat feet would prevent me from getting into a combat unit in theIsraeli army. It didn't even penetrate my thick head when, after running the1983 N.Y. Marathon (at a lean 164lbs.), I had constant knee pain, which lead meto have an arthroscopy. The doctors showed me on the scope (I had insisted tobe fully awake for the whole procedure - stupid, I know...) that my left patella(knee cap) had a crack that ran the entire length of it. It was a squigglyline, and kind of looked like the Grateful Dead symbol. Bizarre... The docs told me that with a cracked patella I should no longer cycle, runningwas out, and I had to avoid all 'trauma' to my knee, even playing volleyball! Iwas composed, and I asked them, "Okay, I can do that, but for how long? I needto be a paratrooper, and have to jump from airplanes." The two docs looked ateach other like I was a deranged alien, and said, "well, it's forever, and youhave no problem with your knee jumping from a plane, you just can't land..." SOmuch for a career in the Israeli Army.... I went to 7 interviews that summer in 1982, and my timing was awful - the War inLebanon (Part I) had just broken out, and funds were being slashed for allacademic related positions. At this point, I already had an M.S. in ExercisePhysiology, to go along with my BA in Physical Education. I was SURE there hadto be a job for me....I was positive, I needed to be in Israel, and that Israelneeded new immigrants, etc. But there wasn't...and not only that, every nativeIsraeli (a "Sabra") that I spoke with thought I was NUTS for wanting to come toIsrael under ANY circumstances, and I should stay in America, and get a Ph.D. inExercise Physiology (hey, I didn't like it THAT much!). It was very depressing,very discouraging, and I was barely earning a living in NYC, and was unable tosave - which was obviously going to be important for Israel. The other people I met with, suggested I go back to school, or come to Israeland go to school, but no one had jobs....not in a sports medicine related field,or teaching physical education. Israel had begun to absorb Soviet blockimmigrants, many who had Master of Sports credentials (or, were concertmusicians, it seems..). So, I came back to the U.S., and kind of aimlesslytried to think of saving for Aliyah, but I was earning a crisp $33,000/year, andhad to buy a car just to get to work...money was flying out, faster then it wascoming in....But, I figured I'd try again in two years; China had its 5 yearplans, and Hanoch would have his 2 year plans! Well, 1984 came, and my world changed forever, and seemed to be falling apart. Within a six month time period, I had three car accidents driving to work (yeah,you don't want me driving the group down the Billy Graham Parkway inCharlotte..). Within the midst of this, we had decided to have a baby. We gotofficial confirmation that we were indeed 'expecting' on the very same day thatmy dad was diagnosed with lung cancer. Fortunately for dad, he didn't suffermuch - he died within 50 days of diagnosis....He died late on a Wednesday night,the night before my birthday, shortly before midnight. He had been in bed withmy mom, and told her he was sorry for being so much trouble, and that he lovedher (my folks adored each other). They kissed, he closed his eyes, andevidently died within moments. I got the frantic call from my mom minuteslater, that, "..I think daddy's dead..." and indeed he was....at age 64....Weburied dad on Friday morning (it was too late to make arrangements for burial onThursday), and we experienced a miscarriage that next Monday afternoon, at thestart of what would have been the 4th month.....my whole world collapsed.....Itwas hard to think of Aliyah having just had a few months like that....hell, Icould barely think straight....I turned back to studying Torah for solace... Hanoch Next Chapter: How I got to the UIWU, Ten Lost Tribes and the Har HaBayit - theTemple Mount. Oh, and maybe about my girls, too! :-) ----------------Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products andtop money wasters of 2007.______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/07246ea3/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 2 20:20:51 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 02:20:51 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Message-ID: <120320070220.11808.475367FE000F324000002E2022230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> My translation (BibleWorks 6) uses the word ~yIAGh; in Gen 10:5 to describe the sons of Japheth. This is the word goyim and means nations, non-jewish sons of Abraham. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Bonnie Nelson : -------------- Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? ? Here are 3 dictionary definitions? 1gen??tile? Pronunciation: ? ? \??jen-??t??(-??)l\ Function: ? ? noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1often capitalized :? a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially :? a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2:? heathen, pagan 3often capitalized :? a non-Mormon On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hey Dick, Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the Christians any longer. My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the words of encouragement, Dick. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: Denny ! ? You said as a Gentile ???? ? ? According to the Rabbi' s? you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide.? In G-d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time.? I do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better.? My first teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". ? ? I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. ? ? ? Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? ? ? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning,? and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be.? I remain a Gentile.? And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. ? Love---Dick L. Subject:? The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on? my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned? in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the? leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to? establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman? were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big? sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam? and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen? to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me? feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I? would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel? and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah.? As a? gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to? support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost? tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about? the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about? often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I? am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself? and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this? very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: Denny, I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I? hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to? you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your? behalf. As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate? as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from? Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols? of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two,? and they are found in both the OT and NT. Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2)? search for Me with all your heart. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for? he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is? a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/a25ae11f/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Sun Dec 2 20:21:58 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 17:21:58 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: <009d01c8354e$70f62580$653c66c9@bettygivin> References: <009d01c8354e$70f62580$653c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <69668569-CFB8-4E7C-87DE-B827FE617BD4@alaska.com> Hi Betty and Dick, It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it seems like they are defining it differently. Like when Dick said: "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to be. Confused, Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a > Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non- > Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of > course, all can speak for themselves. > > > > Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the > ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too > much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many > horrific things have been done to them in the name of > Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is > that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found > in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So > many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we > first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the > Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that > once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most > rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that > we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. > > > > I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. > The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with > Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that > Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to > proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention > that because it just came up. > > > > Shalom and Blessings to all, > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship > with G-d... > > > > Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 > dictionary definitions? > > 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ > > Function: noun > > Etymology: > > Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens > nation > > Date: > > 14th century > > 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non- > Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew > > 2: heathen, pagan > > 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon > > > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > > > > > Hey Dick, > > > > Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am > content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to > participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion > with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles > to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with > things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the > things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the > Christians any longer. > > My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the > words of encouragement, Dick. > > > > Shalom, > > Denny > > > > > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: > > > >> Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' >> s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G- >> d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the >> lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do >> not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and >> satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first >> teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The >> Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". >> >> I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the >> Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then >> the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am >> only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. >> >> Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I >> luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me >> a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love >> listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in >> there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try >> to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And >> I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. >> Love---Dick L. >> >> >> >> >> >> Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... >> >> >> >> >> >>> Thank you Glenn, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of >>> such a commitment. >>> >>> Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program >>> on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight >>> I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what >>> the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in >>> efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer >>> and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They >>> were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their >>> leaders. ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>> As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim >>> Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The >>> more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It >>> almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my >>> stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the >>> lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, >>> Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what >>> my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. >>> The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but >>> I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. >>> Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I >>> will listen and learn. >>> >>> >>> >>> Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way >>> around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the >>> likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our >>> relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. >>> >>> >>> >>> Shavua Tov >>> >>> >>> >>> Denny >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Denny, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. >>>> I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are >>>> meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and >>>> beseech Him on your behalf. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank >>>> slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he >>>> spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will >>>> serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has >>>> not been an easy thing... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but >>>> two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you >>>> (2) search for Me with all your heart. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, >>>> for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that >>>> (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and >>>> humbled. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Glenn >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > > Opinions expressed are mine alone. > > (Unless you happen to agree.) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/6fa67070/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 20:36:55 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 21:36:55 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud Message-ID: Thank you for bringing up that point, John. Yes!!! A resounding YES, in fact! I love what Yeshua gave to me. I'm most thankful for my Christian background because I learned to listen to G-d's Ruach Hakodesh. I didn't' mean to sound like that process has not already begun. What I was actually referring to is something John Hulley once said. He compared the experience that Jeremiah is talking about to a school of fish. He said that he thinks when this event has fully dawned that we will all be so attuned to G-d's voice, that we will look like a school of fish! You know how when you are watching them and all of sudden they seem to all just switch directions at once? It's like they are all of one mind and one accord! Ever since I heard that analogy, that's the picture I get when I read Jer. 31:32. I know that what you are saying is right. We've seen the beginning, but I believe the future will be even more glorious! Pat> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 01:37:53 +0000> > Hey Pat,> > Personally, I fully agree with your assessment of Mishnah and Torah.> > Just a point of debate though. I am one who believes that the process of Torah being written on our hearts was begun with Yeshua. The issue of divinity aside I believe that as Messiah, his example is indeed the "light" that came into the world. While it has taken much of my life iI have to say that this light is the reason I am studying Torah today. So my point is that while I certainly look forward to the completion of God's promise, I am convinced it has already begun.> > What say you?> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T> > -----Original Message-----> From: patricia robbins > > Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:23:10 > To:> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud> > > Hi Roy,> > I don't believe it nullifies, replaces or should in any way be placed above G-d's Word. I truly believe it of utmost importance to diligently study T'NaKh, pray and actively listen for His guidance in all things.> > If we turn to something as the final word for every interpretation, can that not become an idol to us? Can it not divert our eyes from studying His Word and looking to Him to direct us? Should we not be looking forward to the day when Torah is written on our hearts (Jer:31:33, or 31:32 in the Hebrew Bible) ?> > I think I look at the words of Mishnah and Talmud as if I were reading any wise, Torah-observant person's opinion on specific matters. Their opinion may be venerated and wonderful, but I still weigh it in light of God's Word because He said that His Word is not too hard for us to understand:> > "...if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the L-RD thy G-d, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are WRITTEN (as opposed to orally spoken) in this book of the Tora, and if thou turn to the L-RD thy G-d with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very near to thee, in thy mouth, and IN THY HEART, that thou mayst do it." Deuteronomy 30: 10-14> > There are even some interpretations in Mishnah and Talmud that I feel negate G-d's Word. > > >From what I have been able to glean from my own Rabbi, and subsequently from others, in the understanding of such "rulings," it is considered that those who sit in Moses' seat have been given authority even to change what God has said. I just have not been able to buy this. Perhaps I have misunderstood what they are saying, but I don't think so.> > Mishnah and Talmud are very good subjects for dialogue. I will be most interested in hearing other opinions. I hold some rather strong ones on this subject, but I want to correct any stakes I may have put into the ground that should be moved! > > Endeavoring to remain teachable,> > Pat> > > > > > ----------------> From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:59:10 -0600> > > > I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud. I suppose I need to start. I have some questions you all may be able to help me with. I understand it is the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form? I have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah? Do you think the Talmud is really God?s words or tradition? > > Thanks Roy > > > > ----------------> > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole > > Rick, > > Good question. - What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? > > In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far. However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were ?The people? complained and God sent the serpent?s. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, ?and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live?. > > Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, ?and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 > > The word ? man - in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some. If we go back to the first of the chapter we see ?the people spoke against God, and against Moses?. I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. Rashi in the Chumash says, when the people spoke against God and Moses, ?they placed the servant on a par with his Master??? Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the church have done with Jesus? The Chumash goes on to say ? our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) > > The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu. ? Jewish Encyclop. > > Shalom > > > > > ----------------> > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... > > > > What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten?> > > Rick > > > > > _______________________________________________> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/02beece1/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Dec 2 20:37:43 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 20:37:43 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now/A Personal Story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00cc01c83555$7b70ee30$653c66c9@bettygivin> Thank-you, Hanoch for your kind words. I have a little Hanukkah "miracle" story that dates back to 1989 that I would like to share. But first I need to go back to the previous year to share a little anecdote. Roger and I had called some friends of ours to invite them out to dinner on a Friday evening. They in turn told us that they were going to a little Bible study and were going to have dinner there afterwards and invited us to meet them there. We agreed. What we did not know was that it was during Hanukkah.I don't know that I had ever heard of Hanukkah, except that it was some kind of a "Jewish Christmas." Well we went. Joe Good was teaching.need I say more.we came out of there with our heads swimming! We were invited to a costume party a few days later. That year, Christmas and Hanukkah were very close together, so not knowing what kind of costumes would be appropriate (we did not know about the Maccabbees), Roger and I came dressed as Mr. and Mrs. Santa Claus! Everyone was so kind and friendly, but we were puzzled because everyone kept staring at us! It was not until later, however, that we figured out why the stares; and then we realized just how ridiculous we must have appeared; yet no one teased us or was mean or ugly.they just loved us! That was our last year to put up a Christmas tree. About the same time the next year, my youngest daughter found out when she was just a few months pregnant that she had cervical cancer. Surgery of course was out of the question since she was pregnant and there was nothing that could be done until after delivery. But it was Hanukkah, and with what little I knew, it was the time when "miracles" had been accomplished in days of old. I wanted our children to come over for a family meal, but it was a little strained because it was not the typical Christmas dinner that I had always prepared when they were growing up. Two out of my three daughters came with their children and their husbands. We sat around the table and I did a brief explanation about Hanukkah and lit the shammash and the first light, and explained that by the end of the eight days that all the lights would be lit.I talked a little about light being a symbol of hope and promise.then I asked everyone to join hands.and asked G-d for a miracle in our family.to heal our precious daughter, Amy, and to bless her with a safe delivery. It was very hard for me to get thru it all without crying, but my family is used me getting emotional, so because they loved me.they let me get thru it all and finish my prayer, even though they were a bit embarrassed. The months went by and Amy delivered a wonderful little baby boy. Some of you who know me have prayed for him often and you know that we still call him Little Larry (although he is now 17 years old!) Amy had to wait for 6 weeks until she could have the surgery to remove the cancer.to make a long story short, she had the surgery.things looked really bad according to the doctor.yet when the results were analyzed, there were no remaining cancer cells! This was during the time of Sukkoth (the lesser Festival of Lights).actually it was on Hoshanna Rabba! Amy has remained cancer free and we still rejoice each Hanukkah as we thank G-d for her miracle! Baruch HaShem! May you all be blessed, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now Yes, Bonnie - thanks very much; I've read a lot of what Rav Bar Tzadok has written, and I really relate to him. Don't be at all concerned about your views and the diversity of opinions...mine are pretty much off the charts! As long as we can all 'agree to disagree' and keep a smile on our faces, then we'll be okay! And Betty, so beautifully put...sighhhhhh......we should create 'holiday' cards where you could inscribe the messages. I LOVE to read what you write! All the best from NYC, Hanoch _____ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/970d6d9e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Dec 2 20:48:30 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 21:48:30 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now/A Personal Story Message-ID: Betty, What a wonderful story!!!!!!! Thank you for sharing, but now how I am supposed to go to sleep if I keep crying!! :-) They're good tears, tears of joy and appreciation of HaShem's miracles. Wow....thank you again........ With BIG hugs, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/22d20c73/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 2 20:56:47 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 02:56:47 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Message-ID: <120320070256.15530.475370640008BE1C00003CAA22193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I have an opinion on this but I will let Ross respond first. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Bonnie Nelson : -------------- Ross, Here is what I got from my Christian teacher about how the prophesies may pertain to the state of Israel today and in response to your post on your ROF Lesson for November. I would appreciate your response as I am a beginner at this but trying hard to understand what is for me overwhelming. Thank you for this open forum and "big tent" dialogue about critical issues in critical times. Bonnie Bonnie: My take on this subject follows. In my opinion, those who believe that the fulfillment of the prophecies of Joel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, are to be found in today's State of Israel are misinterpreting the meanings of 'Judah' and 'Israel.' The time spoken of by Joel 3, for example, lists both Judah and Israel but does so from a different standpoint than is typically interpreted. KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of JUDAH and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage ISRAEL, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. Those prophets were living during the period of the Divided Kingdoms of Judah and Israel, i.e., long after the death of Solomon. To those prophets, 'JUDAH' referred to the Southern Kingdom that included primarily the tribe of Judah, the small tribe of Benjamin and a smattering of the remains of the tribe of Simeon [the majority of Simeon failed to defeat the Edomites (descendants of Esau) and assimilated with them. Today, those Israelites are part of the 'Arabs' in and around Israel and those descendants of Simeon do not even know they are Israelites. Many would be horrified to find that they were!]. In those prophets' times, the Northern Kingdom of Israel essentially had no religion. Jereboam who became the first king of ISRAEL (which included the other 9 tribes) refused to allow the people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel to go to the Temple in Jerusalem. For the most part, they took up the worship of the pagan gods of the Canaanites. There was a stressful period of better than 200 years with the two kingdoms--the Northern Kingdom refusing to worship God at all (the 'faithless Israel' Jer 3:6) and 'unfaithful Judah' based in Jerusalem (Jer 3:7) frequently setting aside their worship of God by also sacrificing to heathen idols. One key thing to note here, is the distinction between 'faithless Israel' versus 'unfaithful Judah.' By 722 BCE, the Northern Kingdom of ISRAEL had been taken captive by the Assyrians and scattered throughout the Assyrian empire. Those nine tribes are part of the 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.' (The other lost tribe was Simeon as above.) For roughly 150 years, the Southern Kingdom of 'Judah' was all that remained of the identifiable 12 Tribes of Israel. Then, during the time of Jeremiah, Solomon's Temple was destroyed when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 585 BCE. The tribe of Judah was then carried off to Babylonian captivity for about 70 years. Under Ezra and Nehemiah a group of those captive 'Jews' returned to Jerusalem where they rebuilt the city walls and erected the Second Temple--roughly about 500 BCE. SO, when those prophets spoke of 'JUDAH' they were talking about the people that became known as the 'Jews.' The rest of the tribes of Israel were never called 'Jews.' When the prophets spoke of 'ISRAEL' they were talking about the people who were taken into captivity but who had lost their identities as descendants of Abraham (actually Israel==Jacob). So, in Joel 3:1, the prophet is speaking of the coming Babylonian captivity which dealt only with Judah and Jerusalem. In Joel 3:2 notice that Israel is the scattered portion. KJV Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. It is essential to recognize the difference between Judah and Israel to make sense of these prophecies. The opinion that the prophets' use of 'Israel' to mean the 'Jews' of today is very shaky in my opinion. The references to Israel returning and occupying the land in peace has NOT YET COME TO PASS. I believe it WILL happen, but not yet. The first return of 'Jews' (Judah) as we see it today may well be the first stages of the process of Israel (the other tribes) returning. BUT FIRST, the descendants of the 'lost' Israel must be identified and desire to return to the Holy Land. Personally, I think the current geneticists' work on studying DNA will eventually give us an identity marker to identify all Israelites. But to say that the land was promised to the 'Jews' is misleading. God's promise is to ALL the descendants of Israel to INCLUDE the Jews but it is not to be limited to them. As a matter of fact, God's promise given to Abraham HAS BEEN FULFILLED for many centuries. [Gen 15:18] On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-- Abraham's descendants included Ishmael, Esau, [Gen 25:1] After Sarah's death, Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah. She bore him SIX more sons. [Gen 25:2] She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. ALL of them produced descendants that settled in that region between the Nile and the Euphrates! They are still there and we often call them 'Arabs.' That land belongs to ALL of them in accordance with God's promise to Abraham. They just need to learn to share it peaceably. Maybe something positive CAN come of the Annapolis Summit!! Shalom, Blair > > ============= > Shalom to all! > > > > This week I have been flooded with insights while preparing my lesson. > I simply can't wait until this Saturday morning's class. We are living > in exciting times. This week, while leaders from all over the world > convened in Annapolis, Maryland to discuss among other things, the > future of Jerusalem, I have been busy studying what God's word has to > say about it. > > > > You shouldn't be surprised to find out that there is a great difference > between what various political leaders have in mind and what God sets > forth in the Bible through His prophets. > > > > You may however be surprised to learn that the ancient Triennial cycle > reading from the Law and the Prophets to be read this Saturday, speaks > directly about this subject. > > > > In this week's Torah reading (Genesis 12 and 13) as well as the > Prophets reading (Joshua 24) we read very clearly that God gave the > land of Israel to Abram and his seed, specifically through Isaac and > Jacob. > > > > In my estimation, the return of the Jewish people to the land promised > to the patriarchs in our day, is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. > This return of Israel to the "promised land" is perhaps the most > prominent theme in the Hebrew Prophets, mentioned in over 40 major > sections of the texts. As I have pointed out before, God's restoration > of Israel to the promised land is the one thing that He will do with > "all His heart and all His soul" - Jeremiah 32:41. > > > > One should take note that God calls this small and highly contested > land - "my land" in Joel 3:2. Jews, Christians and Moslems all lay > claim to it in all or in part, but this week's class will make clear > that the "title / deed" was promised by God to a single family - > Israel! > > > > It is commonly referred to today as the "Holy Land". (See Zechariah > 2:13 for the one time in the Bible where this name is used to refer to > "the Land" of Israel). > > > > In my studies this week I found one passage to be most incredible. > Popular translations don't do justice to this passage and so I have > translated it myself in order to render it more closely to the original > Hebrew. It may seem awkward in English, but this literal rendering is > much better I think. In Deuteronomy 11:12 we find that this land is; > > > > "a land which the LORD your God searches her continually: the eyes of > the LORD are on her, from the beginning of the year and until the end > of the year." > > > > Think about that! Can you imagine God searching this land continually > throughout the year with His eyes? The image I get is of a guard > looking up and down this strip of land from a strategic viewpoint! > > > > Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel had to > say about the subject that they now consider. > > > > In the third chapter of Joel we read: > > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall > bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather > all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage > Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my > land. > > > > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all nations is > brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on "in the > news". > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/85fc3b91/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Dec 2 21:08:38 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:08:38 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Great shopping site in Israel Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim, Check this site out - something for everyone! Hanoch _Click here: I-Deas Shop - Shopping in Israel_ (http://www.i-deas.co.il/store/index.asp) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/9168aacd/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Sun Dec 2 21:10:11 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 18:10:11 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now/A Personal Story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2205B12A-A226-4640-BDF1-75B507B54132@alaska.com> Thank you Betty and Hanoch, The suspense of Hanoch's story is too much. Maybe I missed it. If so, I am sorry Hannoch. But are you still Jewish? And will you perhaps start a thread on your beliefs today unless of course you think it would distract from your wonderful saga. I hope you comment and add more. And since I am studying with the possibility of converting could I ask you questions either in this dialogue or if you would prefer my email is b.nelson at alaska.com Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 5:48 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > Betty, > > What a wonderful story!!!!!!! Thank you for sharing, but now > how I am supposed to go to sleep if I keep crying!! :-) They're > good tears, tears of joy and appreciation of HaShem's miracles. > Wow....thank you again........ > > With BIG hugs, > Hanoch > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and > top money wasters of 2007. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/c3fbf62b/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 21:14:48 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 19:14:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now/A Personal Story In-Reply-To: <00cc01c83555$7b70ee30$653c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <855435.33883.qm@web57103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Betty, This was such a beautiful story......Thank you for sharing it with us. I love to hear about all the miracles that come at the hands of our G-d. I know that I will certainly think of your daughter and her miracle this year at Hanukkah. Shalom, Tammy Betty Givin wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Thank-you, Hanoch for your kind words. I have a little Hanukkah ???miracle??? story that dates back to 1989 that I would like to share. But first I need to go back to the previous year to share a little anecdote. Roger and I had called some friends of ours to invite them out to dinner on a Friday evening. They in turn told us that they were going to a little Bible study and were going to have dinner there afterwards and invited us to meet them there. We agreed. What we did not know was that it was during Hanukkah???I don???t know that I had ever heard of Hanukkah, except that it was some kind of a ???Jewish Christmas.??? Well we went. Joe Good was teaching???need I say more???we came out of there with our heads swimming! We were invited to a costume party a few days later. That year, Christmas and Hanukkah were very close together, so not knowing what kind of costumes would be appropriate (we did not know about the Maccabbees), Roger and I came dressed as Mr. and Mrs. Santa Claus! Everyone was so kind and friendly, but we were puzzled because everyone kept staring at us! It was not until later, however, that we figured out why the stares; and then we realized just how ridiculous we must have appeared; yet no one teased us or was mean or ugly???they just loved us! That was our last year to put up a Christmas tree. About the same time the next year, my youngest daughter found out when she was just a few months pregnant that she had cervical cancer. Surgery of course was out of the question since she was pregnant and there was nothing that could be done until after delivery. But it was Hanukkah, and with what little I knew, it was the time when ???miracles??? had been accomplished in days of old. I wanted our children to come over for a family meal, but it was a little strained because it was not the typical Christmas dinner that I had always prepared when they were growing up. Two out of my three daughters came with their children and their husbands. We sat around the table and I did a brief explanation about Hanukkah and lit the shammash and the first light, and explained that by the end of the eight days that all the lights would be lit???I talked a little about light being a symbol of hope and promise???then I asked everyone to join hands???and asked G-d for a miracle in our family???to heal our precious daughter, Amy, and to bless her with a safe delivery. It was very hard for me to get thru it all without crying, but my family is used me getting emotional, so because they loved me???they let me get thru it all and finish my prayer, even though they were a bit embarrassed. The months went by and Amy delivered a wonderful little baby boy. Some of you who know me have prayed for him often and you know that we still call him Little Larry (although he is now 17 years old!) Amy had to wait for 6 weeks until she could have the surgery to remove the cancer???to make a long story short, she had the surgery???things looked really bad according to the doctor???yet when the results were analyzed, there were no remaining cancer cells! This was during the time of Sukkoth (the lesser Festival of Lights)???actually it was on Hoshanna Rabba! Amy has remained cancer free and we still rejoice each Hanukkah as we thank G-d for her miracle! Baruch HaShem! May you all be blessed, Betty/Elisheva --------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now Yes, Bonnie - thanks very much; I've read a lot of what Rav Bar Tzadok has written, and I really relate to him. Don't be at all concerned about your views and the diversity of opinions...mine are pretty much off the charts! As long as we can all 'agree to disagree' and keep a smile on our faces, then we'll be okay! And Betty, so beautifully put...sighhhhhh......we should create 'holiday' cards where you could inscribe the messages. I LOVE to read what you write! All the best from NYC, Hanoch --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/77dec143/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Dec 2 21:14:45 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:14:45 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now/A Personal Story Message-ID: Shalom Bonny - And thank you for your note. I have to be brief, it's already way past my bedtime! :-) Yes, I am still Jewish, and fully observant today, and totally involved in my Jewish life. Still desperate to get to Israel, where we ALL belong, but working on it....... Please feel free to ask me anything you'd like. I've already begun to air all of my family secrets already, what could a few more questions hurt? LOL :-) Very best regards, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/3041b011/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Sun Dec 2 21:18:23 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 18:18:23 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now/A Personal Story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <707638B5-4C5B-439F-B6E1-02E3A032C395@alaska.com> Thank you, tomorrow, you need sleep. You probably got mor snow than we do in Alaska. LOL Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 6:14 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > Shalom Bonny - > > And thank you for your note. I have to be brief, it's already > way past my bedtime! :-) Yes, I am still Jewish, and fully > observant today, and totally involved in my Jewish life. Still > desperate to get to Israel, where we ALL belong, but working on > it....... > > Please feel free to ask me anything you'd like. I've already > begun to air all of my family secrets already, what could a few > more questions hurt? LOL :-) > > Very best regards, > Hanoch > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and > top money wasters of 2007. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/ac0b227a/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 2 21:54:06 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 03:54:06 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud Message-ID: <120320070354.8769.47537DD7000C6BAF0000224122193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Wow. Interesting analogy. I gotta go re-read that. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from patricia robbins : -------------- Thank you for bringing up that point, John. Yes!!! A resounding YES, in fact! I love what Yeshua gave to me. I'm most thankful for my Christian background because I learned to listen to G-d's Ruach Hakodesh. I didn't' mean to sound like that process has not already begun. What I was actually referring to is something John Hulley once said. He compared the experience that Jeremiah is talking about to a school of fish. He said that he thinks when this event has fully dawned that we will all be so attuned to G-d's voice, that we will look like a school of fish! You know how when you are watching them and all of sudden they seem to all just switch directions at once? It's like they are all of one mind and one accord! Ever since I heard that analogy, that's the picture I get when I read Jer. 31:32. I know that what you are saying is right. We've seen the beginning, but I believe the future will be even more glorious! Pat > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 01:37:53 +0000 > > Hey Pat, > > Personally, I fully agree with your assessment of Mishnah and Torah. > > Just a point of debate though. I am one who believes that the process of Torah being written on our hearts was begun with Yeshua. The issue of divinity aside I believe that as Messiah, his example is indeed the "light" that came into the world. While it has taken much of my life iI have to say that this light is the reason I am studying Torah today. So my point is that while I certainly look forward to the completion of God's promise, I am convinced it has already begun. > > What say you? > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: patricia robbins > > Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:23:10 > To: > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud > > > Hi Roy, > > I don't believe it nullifies, replaces or should in any way be placed above G-d's Word. I truly believe it of utmost importance to diligently study T'NaKh, pray and actively listen for His guidance in all things. > > If we turn to something as the final word for every interpretation, can that not become an idol to us? Can it not divert our eyes from studying His Word and looking to Him to direct us? Should we not be looking forward to the day when Torah is written on our hearts (Jer:31:33, or 31:32 in the Hebrew Bible) ? > > I think I look at the words of Mishnah and Talmud as if I were reading any wise, Torah-observant person's opinion on specific matters. Their opinion may be venerated and wonderful, but I still weigh it in light of God's Word because He said that His Word is not too hard for us to understand: > > "...if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the L-RD thy G-d, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are WRITTEN (as opposed to orally spoken) in this book of the Tora, and if thou turn to the L-RD thy G-d with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very near to thee, in thy mouth, and IN THY HEART, that thou mayst do it." Deuteronomy 30: 10-14 > > There are even some interpretations in Mishnah and Talmud that I feel negate G-d's Word. > > >From what I have been able to glean from my own Rabbi, and subsequently from others, in the understanding of such "rulings," it is considered that those who sit in Moses' seat have been given authority even to change what God has said. I just have not been able to buy this. Perhaps I have misunderstood what they are saying, but I don't think so. > > Mishnah and Talmud are very good subjects for dialogue. I will be most interested in hearing other opinions. I hold some rather strong ones on this subject, but I want to correct any stakes I may have put into the ground that should be moved! > > Endeavoring to remain teachable, > > Pat > > > > > > ---------------- > From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole > Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:59:10 -0600 > > > > I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud. I suppose I need to start. I have some questions you all may be able to help me with. I understand it is the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form? I have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah? Do you think the Talmud is really God?s words or tradition? > > Thanks Roy > > > > ---------------- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole > > Rick, > > Good question. - What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? > > In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far. However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were ?The people? complained and God sent the serpent?s. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, ?and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live?. > > Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, ?and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 > > The word ? man - in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some. If we go back to the first of the chapter we see ?the people spoke against God, and against Moses?. I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. Rashi in the Chumash says, when the people spoke against God and Moses, ?they placed the servant on a par with his Master??? Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the church have done with Jesus? The Chumash goes on to say ? our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) > > The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu. ? Jewish Encyclop. > > Shalom > > > > > ---------------- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... > > > > What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? > > > Rick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/5e8feb91/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 22:08:10 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 23:08:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Message-ID: Hi Dick, Bonnie and Betty! Dick, I know that I'm one of the ones - maybe THE one who is always talking about our being the Tribes. I'm glad that you brought up the fact that you do not feel this way too. And I'll try to remember not to speak so all inclusively in the future. Whether you feel like a Triber or not, the fact that there is an awakening among those who do is still really good news to my way of thinking. I believe it one of the best indicators that G-d's word through His prophets is coming true. If we have arrived at the "time of the end," as many of the Rabbis believe, then one of the things that should be happening IS happening. I also realize that not everyone is supposed to be from the Tribes. That's a wonderful thing too. Being a Noachide is terrific. All of mankind is obliged to abide by the 7 laws of Noah. I really appreciate your patience with me. Bonnie, it's wonderful hearing your comments and questions. You fit in perfectly here! Like Betty, I think of the word, "Gentile," as referring to someone who is not a Jew, whether they be Christian, Muslim, or Noachide - or anything else for that matter. I can certainly understand the confusion you are experiencing. We are all trying to figure things out here. I know the answers to our questions are in the T'NaKh, and maybe, together, we'll find many of them. Like Betty, I converted to Judaism. And it was after I had converted that I discovered a link to Judah in our family tree. It's waaaay back there, but quite striking - at least to me it's striking! I converted because I truly felt G-d was leading me that way for a long time. So when I found that what I had felt led to do actually turned out to have a basis in reality, I was pretty well convinced that listening to that inner voice can be a good and valid thing. Therefore when I hear someone say that they feel they are part of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, I tend to listen to them. As has been mentioned before, the one thing we all have in common is a desire to follow G-d. But there is something very special about this group of people who are meeting in this Synagogue Without Walls. It is what Ross describes as "Ahavat Chinom" - Baseless Love! The Rabbis teach that the second Temple was destroyed because of "Sinat Chinom" - Baseless Hatred, or a lack of love. In this Synagogue Without Walls, there is love without reason! Shalom-shalom, Pat Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 17:21:58 -0900From: b.nelson at alaska.comSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the threadTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgHi Betty and Dick, It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it seems like they are defining it differently. Like when Dick said: "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to be. Confused, Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non-Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of course, all can speak for themselves. Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many horrific things have been done to them in the name of Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention that because it just came up. Shalom and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie NelsonSent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 dictionary definitions? 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2: heathen, pagan 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hey Dick, Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the Christians any longer. My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the words of encouragement, Dick. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G-d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: Denny, I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) search for Me with all your heart. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/17437db9/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 22:18:46 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 23:18:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now/A Personal Story Message-ID: That's so beautiful, Betty! Baruch Hashem!!!! And I'm still sitting here laughing at the thought of your dressing as Mr. and Mrs. Claus at a Hanukkah party.............priceless!!!!!!! That's going to become one of my all-time favorite stories! From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now/A Personal StoryDate: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 20:37:43 -0600 Thank-you, Hanoch for your kind words. I have a little Hanukkah ?miracle? story that dates back to 1989 that I would like to share. But first I need to go back to the previous year to share a little anecdote. Roger and I had called some friends of ours to invite them out to dinner on a Friday evening. They in turn told us that they were going to a little Bible study and were going to have dinner there afterwards and invited us to meet them there. We agreed. What we did not know was that it was during Hanukkah?I don?t know that I had ever heard of Hanukkah, except that it was some kind of a ?Jewish Christmas.? Well we went. Joe Good was teaching?need I say more?we came out of there with our heads swimming! We were invited to a costume party a few days later. That year, Christmas and Hanukkah were very close together, so not knowing what kind of costumes would be appropriate (we did not know about the Maccabbees), Roger and I came dressed as Mr. and Mrs. Santa Claus! Everyone was so kind and friendly, but we were puzzled because everyone kept staring at us! It was not until later, however, that we figured out why the stares; and then we realized just how ridiculous we must have appeared; yet no one teased us or was mean or ugly?they just loved us! That was our last year to put up a Christmas tree. About the same time the next year, my youngest daughter found out when she was just a few months pregnant that she had cervical cancer. Surgery of course was out of the question since she was pregnant and there was nothing that could be done until after delivery. But it was Hanukkah, and with what little I knew, it was the time when ?miracles? had been accomplished in days of old. I wanted our children to come over for a family meal, but it was a little strained because it was not the typical Christmas dinner that I had always prepared when they were growing up. Two out of my three daughters came with their children and their husbands. We sat around the table and I did a brief explanation about Hanukkah and lit the shammash and the first light, and explained that by the end of the eight days that all the lights would be lit?I talked a little about light being a symbol of hope and promise?then I asked everyone to join hands?and asked G-d for a miracle in our family?to heal our precious daughter, Amy, and to bless her with a safe delivery. It was very hard for me to get thru it all without crying, but my family is used me getting emotional, so because they loved me?they let me get thru it all and finish my prayer, even though they were a bit embarrassed. The months went by and Amy delivered a wonderful little baby boy. Some of you who know me have prayed for him often and you know that we still call him Little Larry (although he is now 17 years old!) Amy had to wait for 6 weeks until she could have the surgery to remove the cancer?to make a long story short, she had the surgery?things looked really bad according to the doctor?yet when the results were analyzed, there were no remaining cancer cells! This was during the time of Sukkoth (the lesser Festival of Lights)?actually it was on Hoshanna Rabba! Amy has remained cancer free and we still rejoice each Hanukkah as we thank G-d for her miracle! Baruch HaShem! May you all be blessed, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.comSent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:51 PMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Hanukah, The Real Story, Then and Now Yes, Bonnie - thanks very much; I've read a lot of what Rav Bar Tzadok has written, and I really relate to him. Don't be at all concerned about your views and the diversity of opinions...mine are pretty much off the charts! As long as we can all 'agree to disagree' and keep a smile on our faces, then we'll be okay! And Betty, so beautifully put...sighhhhhh......we should create 'holiday' cards where you could inscribe the messages. I LOVE to read what you write! All the best from NYC, Hanoch Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/7b993fc4/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 2 22:20:12 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 04:20:12 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga...Part VII Message-ID: <120320070420.6632.475383F40002B07B000019E822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Man, see what ya mean. Hard to be upbeat about all that load though. I think you portrayed it honestly. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 1984... what a horrible year....Somehow, I got through that year, it was a blur ....and had to begin dealing with a mom who was trying to adjust to a life alone, and relied heavily upon me, and that I wasn't going to be a father after all....at least not at that time. It was strange, I remember telling my brother at the start of the shiva (the 7 days of ritual mourning) for my dad, that I don't know what I would do, if anything happened to our baby. The baby that if it was a boy, would be named after my father - a level of continuity, at least, and some consolation for such a sudden loss. You know, like the Lion King's "Circle of Life" thing? The baby that wasn't meant to be.....there had already been considerable tension/drama at home, the baby was supposed to bring us together....not meant to be.....on any level.... I was working for PepsiCo at the time, the parent company of Pepsi, and was asked to come back to work, immediately after the mourning period (those first seven days) were over. What they hadn't counted on, was that I was observing the practice of not shaving for the first 30 days of mourning. Although I had a thin baby-face (I know, I know you can't picture it...but it was true, LOL), I looked like a wolfman, with hair growing wildly on my face, chin and neck. Although one woman at work, who didn't realize there was a religious reason behind it, told me she liked the 'rough, caveman look' I was going for. Sighhhh...The company offered me (every employee) tickets to Michael Jackson's "Thriller" concert (he had just become a spokesman for Pepsi), and could not understand that as part of mourning, I did not go to concerts.....they just thought I was one weird Jew......That Fall, I was desperate to take some time off, and regain my focus....death, car accidents, the miscarriage... I NEEDED to get away. But I quickly found out that my vacation time had been retroactively taken away from me, due to the time I took off for mourning!! Man, I could have used some time........ I kept trying to figure out how to save for Aliyah, and how to get a job in Israel, but I now had a mom who depended upon me for emotional support.....I began to wonder if it was HaShem's plan that I should be there to support my mom....but that was just a rationalization. I had no idea why I couldn't 'push forward' with my Aliyah plans, but there was plenty of 'family' drama to keep me distracted... Continually, I tried to volunteer to write, or speak for various Jewish organizations, but no one seemed to have any use for me. I felt that I had all this incredible Torah that I learned from Rav Kahane, but no one to teach it to....or share it with....One good thing that happened that year - Rav Kahane got elected to the Kennest, despite all the efforts of the leftists and Hellenists to keep him silent. But his hoped for effect on the government was very short lived. Before the next election (where his Kach party was projected to get 12 seats, and be a major factor in forming a government), he was banned from running again. He was deemed to be 'racist...' by quoting from the Torah and the Rambam (Maimonides). What a travesty.... In June of 1985, we were blessed with a lovely daughter, Ayala Rivka, who was just the sweetest baby you could imagine.....blond hair, blue eyes (yeah, just like Hanoch, I know you're thinking) At the same time, I was hoping that someway, somehow, we could all go on Aliyah....but as the saying goes, "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail..." I got my first credit card at that time, and soon found myself accumulating debt. I ignored the pressing 'relationship' issues in my life, by focusing on my lovely daughter. That summer (1985), I took Ayala in her carriage, to hear Rav Kahane speak at a local shul. At the end of the speech, I approached him, wheeling the carriage. We hadn't 'touched base' in a number of years at that point, and he clearly assumed that I must have made Aliyah, that I was in Israel. I knew it, when he looked up and saw me, with the carriage, and said, in a truly surprised tone, "What are you still doing here???" He was soon surrounded with admirers, and I couldn't get near him. Those were the last words he ever spoke to me (he was murdered in New York in 1990)......I felt like a low-life dirtbag, for being in America, but was sure my job luck (being highly qualified, but underpaid) would some how change, miraculously. In Judaism, we are told not to depend on miracles, but I clearly was (looking at it with hindsight).... There was a young guy in shul that I heard was "involved" in a recent spate of bombings (no casualties, just warning stuff), I'll just call him by his last initial, 'C' Well, C came up to me one Shabbat, and asked me, "Hey - aren't you Hanoch Young? I heard you used to be an activist" OUCH!!!! That hurt, more then you can imagine, how did I go from an 'activist' to a has been, over night? Sighhhhhhh Poor C, he got involved with this new version of what I'll call, "Jewish Armed Resistance" and was caught and convicted (along with several others..). He was a sweet, good looking guy, maybe 20 - 21 years old, and was about to be sentenced. The weekend before, he took an overdose of sleeping pills and passed away in his sleep. Accident? Suicide? I'll never know, and neither will anyone else...but what a shame......he was such a nice guy... My salary gradually rose to $44,000, as my youngest daughter Kyra Miriam was born, in May, 1988. That amount of money, for a family of four in New York? There just wasn't enough money to go around. The number of credit cards grew, as did the amounts charged on them.....it was becoming harder, and harder to envision Aliyah.... My daughters names are actually a 'play' on each other: 'Ayala' means female deer, D-E-E-R while 'Kyra' comes from 'Yakira' which means dear, D-E-A-R......I know it seems a bit lame now, but I thought I was really clever then....sighhhhhhhh.... I was the 'primary care provider' for my daughters, which was the politically correct term for: "Mr. Mom." Although it was very, very difficult to juggle work responsibilities, and make all the class birthday parties, and special assemblies, I did, and I was thrilled to be such a huge part of their lives. My mom was a BIG help in raising the girls, and they adored her, and listened to everything she said, with no question (ME, they questioned!! LOL). In fact, they were so well behaved when they were with her, that people used to say we should rent them out, to couples who were considering having children!! And mom was responsible for MY sanity, encouraging me unconditionally, and being as supportive as any human being could. I have not been the same without her....but that comes later... Both girls started their education in Jewish schools, and began attending a Yeshiva, a Jewish Day School. The payments were almost $6,000/child (and those are post-tax dollars, folks...), but I was determined that MY children would have a real Jewish education, and wouldn't have to pursue it, post-college, like I did. Little did I know that when they reached High School, it would begin costing $16,000/year for each of them, with summer camp costing $6,000/each....as a Financial Planner friend pointed out - I was using ALL of my disposable income for my girls education, and then some!! But I would do anything for my girls, I wouldn't walk out on them, and I wouldn't scrimp on their education. But more on them, a bit later. As I mentioned, some new group began a series of bombings on behalf of some Jewish causes, and it turns out that they included some "old-timers" - guys from MY era.....so, guess who became a suspect again? At this point, I was running a Fitness Center for a large New York law firm, and picked up the phone one morning, to hear someone introduce themselves as,: Larry Wack, of the FBI "Joint Terrorist Task Force!" I couldn't figure out how he got my number at work, and he wasn't volunteering much info at all, but firing lots of questions at me. Nicely, but firmly. Now, the Feds aren't so frightening when you KNOW you didn't do anything, and they had NOTHING on you :-), right? Not really....'cause they're always trying to trick you. Firstly - why call me? Like I said, it was old-timers" (someone active 10 years before) that were involved, there was a suspect that actually lived in the Bronx near me when I was growing up, and then lived in the other half of the building (think LARGE apartment buildings, folks) I moved into when Ayala was born - a total coincidence. But the best part - they found 11 weapons and explosives at a guys house, whose last name happened to be - Young.....no relation to me, but they didn't know that! Larry called me often, sometimes at work, sometimes at home, cajoling, threatening, playing 'dumb' sometimes. He knew the Shabbat I had visited my friend Baruch in Kiryat Arba back in '82 (remember when I carried the Ak-47, it was THAT Shabbat). He told me that I was a good looking guy, and photographed well. I asked him to please send me copies, so I could show my kids. He never did..LOL Eventually, they realized that I truly didn't have any info that would be of value to them, and stopped calling. And then I found out how they got my work #. Turns out that they had gone to my building's management office, and asked for my work contact #. Janet, the woman in the office said that I was a very nice man, and a very good father, so no, she wouldn't give them ANY information! Okay they said, but they would come into her office and empty every, single file on the floor. That worked - she gave them my work #..... I tried to focus on my Torah studies, but with two little girls, too many hours at work, a mom who needed me....sighhh....and what about Aliyah? I felt like I was sinking into quicksand, slowly sinking, with no way out. It wasn't supposed to be like this..... Coming up - the UIWU, and my life's mission(s)...or so I thought.... Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/cde5757c/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 23:01:22 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 00:01:22 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga...Part VII In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Even though there is sadness during this time, there is also incomparable blessing. I think any man who loves his children with all his heart is a very great success in life. No matter what else you do, or where you live, you have measured up to G-d's standard. He chose Abram because he knew he would teach his children. Have you not loved, taught, and even laid your life down for your children? In my eyes, you have succeeded far beyond what most men are able to achieve in this world, Hanoch Young! And you know what? It's not over until it's over!!!! There's just no telling what Hashem has in store for you in the future! From: YoungBarzel at aol.comDate: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 19:03:24 -0500To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] The Saga...Part VII 1984... what a horrible year....Somehow, I got through that year, it was a blur ....and had to begin dealing with a mom who was trying to adjust to a life alone, and relied heavily upon me, and that I wasn't going to be a father after all....at least not at that time. It was strange, I remember telling my brother at the start of the shiva (the 7 days of ritual mourning) for my dad, that I don't know what I would do, if anything happened to our baby. The baby that if it was a boy, would be named after my father - a level of continuity, at least, and some consolation for such a sudden loss. You know, like the Lion King's "Circle of Life" thing? The baby that wasn't meant to be.....there had already been considerable tension/drama at home, the baby was supposed to bring us together....not meant to be.....on any level....I was working for PepsiCo at the time, the parent company of Pepsi, and was asked to come back to work, immediately after the mourning period (those first seven days) were over. What they hadn't counted on, was that I was observing the practice of not shaving for the first 30 days of mourning. Although I had a thin baby-face (I know, I know you can't picture it...but it was true, LOL), I looked like a wolfman, with hair growing wildly on my face, chin and neck. Although one woman at work, who didn't realize there was a religious reason behind it, told me she liked the 'rough, caveman look' I was going for. Sighhhh...The company offered me (every employee) tickets to Michael Jackson's "Thriller" concert (he had just become a spokesman for Pepsi), and could not understand that as part of mourning, I did not go to concerts.....they just thought I was one weird Jew......That Fall, I was desperate to take some time off, and regain my focus....death, car accidents, the miscarriage...I NEEDED to get away. But I quickly found out that my vacation time had been retroactively taken away from me, due to the time I took off for mourning!! Man, I could have used some time........I kept trying to figure out how to save for Aliyah, and how to get a job in Israel, but I now had a mom who depended upon me for emotional support.....I began to wonder if it was HaShem's plan that I should be there to support my mom....but that was just a rationalization. I had no idea why I couldn't 'push forward' with my Aliyah plans, but there was plenty of 'family' drama to keep me distracted...Continually, I tried to volunteer to write, or speak for various Jewish organizations, but no one seemed to have any use for me. I felt that I had all this incredible Torah that I learned from Rav Kahane, but no one to teach it to....or share it with....One good thing that happened that year - Rav Kahane got elected to the Kennest, despite all the efforts of the leftists and Hellenists to keep him silent. But his hoped for effect on the government was very short lived. Before the next election (where his Kach party was projected to get 12 seats, and be a major factor in forming a government), he was banned from running again. He was deemed to be 'racist...' by quoting from the Torah and the Rambam (Maimonides). What a travesty....In June of 1985, we were blessed with a lovely daughter, Ayala Rivka, who was just the sweetest baby you could imagine.....blond hair, blue eyes (yeah, just like Hanoch, I know you're thinking) At the same time, I was hoping that someway, somehow, we could all go on Aliyah....but as the saying goes, "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail..." I got my first credit card at that time, and soon found myself accumulating debt. I ignored the pressing 'relationship' issues in my life, by focusing on my lovely daughter.That summer (1985), I took Ayala in her carriage, to hear Rav Kahane speak at a local shul. At the end of the speech, I approached him, wheeling the carriage. We hadn't 'touched base' in a number of years at that point, and he clearly assumed that I must have made Aliyah, that I was in Israel. I knew it, when he looked up and saw me, with the carriage, and said, in a truly surprised tone, "What are you still doing here???" He was soon surrounded with admirers, and I couldn't get near him. Those were the last words he ever spoke to me (he was murdered in New York in 1990)......I felt like a low-life dirtbag, for being in America, but was sure my job luck (being highly qualified, but underpaid) would some how change, miraculously. In Judaism, we are told not to depend on miracles, but I clearly was (looking at it with hindsight).... There was a young guy in shul that I heard was "involved" in a recent spate of bombings (no casualties, just warning stuff), I'll just call him by his last initial, 'C' Well, C came up to me one Shabbat, and asked me, "Hey - aren't you Hanoch Young? I heard you used to be an activist" OUCH!!!! That hurt, more then you can imagine, how did I go from an 'activist' to a has been, over night? Sighhhhhhh Poor C, he got involved with this new version of what I'll call, "Jewish Armed Resistance" and was caught and convicted (along with several others..). He was a sweet, good looking guy, maybe 20 - 21 years old, and was about to be sentenced. The weekend before, he took an overdose of sleeping pills and passed away in his sleep. Accident? Suicide? I'll never know, and neither will anyone else...but what a shame......he was such a nice guy...My salary gradually rose to $44,000, as my youngest daughter Kyra Miriam was born, in May, 1988. That amount of money, for a family of four in New York? There just wasn't enough money to go around. The number of credit cards grew, as did the amounts charged on them.....it was becoming harder, and harder to envision Aliyah....My daughters names are actually a 'play' on each other: 'Ayala' means female deer, D-E-E-R while 'Kyra' comes from 'Yakira' which means dear, D-E-A-R......I know it seems a bit lame now, but I thought I was really clever then....sighhhhhhhh....I was the 'primary care provider' for my daughters, which was the politically correct term for: "Mr. Mom." Although it was very, very difficult to juggle work responsibilities, and make all the class birthday parties, and special assemblies, I did, and I was thrilled to be such a huge part of their lives. My mom was a BIG help in raising the girls, and they adored her, and listened to everything she said, with no question (ME, they questioned!! LOL). In fact, they were so well behaved when they were with her, that people used to say we should rent them out, to couples who were considering having children!! And mom was responsible for MY sanity, encouraging me unconditionally, and being as supportive as any human being could. I have not been the same without her....but that comes later...Both girls started their education in Jewish schools, and began attending a Yeshiva, a Jewish Day School. The payments were almost $6,000/child (and those are post-tax dollars, folks...), but I was determined that MY children would have a real Jewish education, and wouldn't have to pursue it, post-college, like I did. Little did I know that when they reached High School, it would begin costing $16,000/year for each of them, with summer camp costing $6,000/each....as a Financial Planner friend pointed out - I was using ALL of my disposable income for my girls education, and then some!! But I would do anything for my girls, I wouldn't walk out on them, and I wouldn't scrimp on their education. But more on them, a bit later. As I mentioned, some new group began a series of bombings on behalf of some Jewish causes, and it turns out that they included some "old-timers" - guys from MY era.....so, guess who became a suspect again? At this point, I was running a Fitness Center for a large New York law firm, and picked up the phone one morning, to hear someone introduce themselves as,: Larry Wack, of the FBI "Joint Terrorist Task Force!" I couldn't figure out how he got my number at work, and he wasn't volunteering much info at all, but firing lots of questions at me. Nicely, but firmly. Now, the Feds aren't so frightening when you KNOW you didn't do anything, and they had NOTHING on you :-), right? Not really....'cause they're always trying to trick you. Firstly - why call me? Like I said, it was old-timers" (someone active 10 years before) that were involved, there was a suspect that actually lived in the Bronx near me when I was growing up, and then lived in the other half of the building (think LARGE apartment buildings, folks) I moved into when Ayala was born - a total coincidence. But the best part - they found 11 weapons and explosives at a guys house, whose last name happened to be - Young.....no relation to me, but they didn't know that! Larry called me often, sometimes at work, sometimes at home, cajoling, threatening, playing 'dumb' sometimes. He knew the Shabbat I had visited my friend Baruch in Kiryat Arba back in '82 (remember when I carried the Ak-47, it was THAT Shabbat). He told me that I was a good looking guy, and photographed well. I asked him to please send me copies, so I could show my kids. He never did..LOL Eventually, they realized that I truly didn't have any info that would be of value to them, and stopped calling. And then I found out how they got my work #. Turns out that they had gone to my building's management office, and asked for my work contact #. Janet, the woman in the office said that I was a very nice man, and a very good father, so no, she wouldn't give them ANY information! Okay they said, but they would come into her office and empty every, single file on the floor. That worked - she gave them my work #..... I tried to focus on my Torah studies, but with two little girls, too many hours at work, a mom who needed me....sighhh....and what about Aliyah? I felt like I was sinking into quicksand, slowly sinking, with no way out. It wasn't supposed to be like this..... Coming up - the UIWU, and my life's mission(s)...or so I thought.... Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/1f7ec432/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Dec 2 23:23:45 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 23:23:45 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud In-Reply-To: <120320070354.8769.47537DD7000C6BAF0000224122193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <012501c8356c$ad7cb370$653c66c9@bettygivin> John, Pat, I just had a thought.what about how this "school of fish" idea relates to Jeremiah 32:37ff "And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for their good, and that of their children forever after them." After that comes the simply wonderful verse that tells what G-d will do with His whole heart and with His whole soul.see verse 41! I think you know it! It has to do with G-d rejoicing in the good of His people and planting them in His Land! I really think this all relates as well to Malachi 3 when it speaks of Elijah the Prophet coming in the last days to turn the heart (singular) of the fathers to the children and the heart (singular) of the children to the fathers! Beginnings of this are happening today.look at how many people (many who think of themselves of Gentiles) are turning to Torah and to Father Abraham! It makes me wonder how many are truly are from the lost tribes, those that Yeshua said he came to seek out, those he called "the House of Israel." It was first thru Yeshua that I personally experienced this call of the heart towards Torah.perhaps this was the beginning of the writing it in my own heart.I am not sure how all this works.I just know that the call and the pull to Torah was undeniable to me and to many others that I know. Perhaps this is part of what it is all about. I know that the process is certainly not complete in me. This putting of the Torah in our "inward parts," and writing it on our hearts (Jer 31:32), does seem to be an ongoing promise, which will finally have its culmination in the last days when Malachi 3 comes to pass. But of course it will be complete fully when no one will have to teach his neighbor because we will all know G-d!!! But in order to allow this to happen, I do think that we have to offer up our hearts as a "blank slate." I am not sure (was it Marvin) who first used this terminology). We have to let go of our preconceived thoughts and ideas as they are brought before us.and this is a process as well..most of us cannot do this all at once. And these preconceived thoughts and ideas or baggage/clutter may be different for each of us. It is late and I find that I am rambling.have to get up early tomorrow.so I will say lyla tov (good night) to all. Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 9:54 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud Wow. Interesting analogy. I gotta go re-read that. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from patricia robbins : -------------- Thank you for bringing up that point, John. Yes!!! A resounding YES, in fact! I love what Yeshua gave to me. I'm most thankful for my Christian background because I learned to listen to G-d's Ruach Hakodesh. I didn't' mean to sound like that process has not already begun. What I was actually referring to is something John Hulley once said. He compared the experience that Jeremiah is talking about to a school of fish. He said that he thinks when this event has fully dawned that we will all be so attuned to G-d's voice, that we will look like a school of fish! You know how when you are watching them and all of sudden they seem to all just switch directions at once? It's like they are all of one mind and one accord! Ever since I heard that analogy, that's the picture I get when I read Jer. 31:32. I know that what you are saying is right.& nbsp; We've seen the beginning, but I believe the future will be even more glorious! Pat > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 01:37:53 +0000 > > Hey Pat, > > Personally, I fully agree with your assessment of Mishnah and Torah. > > Just a point of debate though. I am one who believes that the process of Torah being written on our hearts was begun with Yeshua. The issue of divinity aside I believe that as Messiah, his example is indeed the "light" that came into the world. While it has taken much of my life iI have to say that this light is the reason I am studying Torah today. So my point is that while I certainly look forward to the completion of God's promise, I am convinced it has already begun. > > What say you? > > Sent via Black Berry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: patricia robbins > > Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:23:10 > To: > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud > > > Hi Roy, > > I don't believe it nullifies, replaces or should in any way be placed above G-d's Word. I truly believe it of utmost importance to diligently study T'NaKh, pray and actively listen for His guidance in all things. > > If we turn to something as the final word for every interpretation, can that not become an idol to us? Can it not divert our eyes from studying His Word and looking to Him to direct us? Should we not be looking forward to the day when Torah is written on our hearts (Jer:31:33, or 31:32 in the Hebrew Bible) ? > > I think I look at the words of Mishnah and Talmud as if I were reading any wise, Torah-observant person's opinion on specific matters. Their opinion may be venerated and wonderful, but I still weigh it in light of God's Word because He said that His Word is not too hard for us to understand: > > "...if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the L-RD thy G-d, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are WRITTEN (as opposed to orally spoken) in this book of the Tora, and if thou turn to the L-RD thy G-d with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that w e may hear it, and do it? But the word is very near to thee, in thy mouth, and IN THY HEART, that thou mayst do it." Deuteronomy 30: 10-14 > > There are even some interpretations in Mishnah and Talmud that I feel negate G-d's Word. > > >From what I have been able to glean from my own Rabbi, and subsequently from others, in the understanding of such "rulings," it is considered that those who sit in Moses' seat have been given authority even to change what God has said. I just have not been able to buy this. Perhaps I have misunderstood what they are saying, but I don't think so. > > Mishnah and Talmud are very good subjects for dialogue. I will be most interested in hearing other opinions. I hold some rather strong ones on this subject, but I want to correct any stakes I may have put into the ground that should be moved! > > Endeavoring to remain teachable, > > Pat > > > > > > ---------------- > From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole > Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:59:10 -0600 > > > > I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud. I suppose I need to start. I have some questions you all may be able to help me with. I understand it is the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form? I have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah? Do you think the Talmud is really Gods words or tradition? > > Thanks Roy > > > > ---------------- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole > > Rick, > > Good question. - What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? > > In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far. However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were The people complained and God sent the serpents. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. > > Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 > > The word man - in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some. If we go back to the first of the chapter we see the people spoke against God, and against Moses. I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. Rashi in the Chumash says, when the people spoke against God and Moses, they placed the servant on a par with his Master Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the church have done with Jesus? The Chumash goes on to say our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) > > The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu. Jewish Encyclop. > > Shalom > > > > > ---------------- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... > > > > What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? > > > Rick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/67f907a2/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Dec 2 23:24:43 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 23:24:43 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga...Part VII In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <013001c8356c$cfaef930$653c66c9@bettygivin> Amen to that, Pat!!! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Saga...Part VII Even though there is sadness during this time, there is also incomparable blessing. I think any man who loves his children with all his heart is a very great success in life. No matter what else you do, or where you live, you have measured up to G-d's standard. He chose Abram because he knew he would teach his children. Have you not loved, taught, and even laid your life down for your children? In my eyes, you have succeeded far beyond what most men are able to achieve in this world, Hanoch Young! And you know what? It's not over until it's over!!!! There's just no telling what Hashem has in store for you in the future! _____ From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 19:03:24 -0500 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga...Part VII 1984... what a horrible year....Somehow, I got through that year, it was a blur ....and had to begin dealing with a mom who was trying to adjust to a life alone, and relied heavily upon me, and that I wasn't going to be a father after all....at least not at that time. It was strange, I remember telling my brother at the start of the shiva (the 7 days of ritual mourning) for my dad, that I don't know what I would do, if anything happened to our baby. The baby that if it was a boy, would be named after my father - a level of continuity, at least, and some consolation for such a sudden loss. You know, like the Lion King's "Circle of Life" thing? The baby that wasn't meant to be.....there had already been considerable tension/drama at home, the baby was supposed to bring us together....not meant to be.....on any level.... I was working for PepsiCo at the time, the parent company of Pepsi, and was asked to come back to work, immediately after the mourning period (those first seven days) were over. What they hadn't counted on, was that I was observing the practice of not shaving for the first 30 days of mourning. Although I had a thin baby-face (I know, I know you can't picture it...but it was true, LOL), I looked like a wolfman, with hair growing wildly on my face, chin and neck. Although one woman at work, who didn't realize there was a religious reason behind it, told me she liked the 'rough, caveman look' I was going for. Sighhhh...The company offered me (every employee) tickets to Michael Jackson's "Thriller" concert (he had just become a spokesman for Pepsi), and could not understand that as part of mourning, I did not go to concerts.....they just thought I was one weird Jew......That Fall, I was desperate to take some time off, and regain my focus....death, car accidents, the miscarriage...I NEEDED to get away. But I quickly found out that my vacation time had been retroactively taken away from me, due to the time I took off for mourning!! Man, I could have used some time........ I kept trying to figure out how to save for Aliyah, and how to get a job in Israel, but I now had a mom who depended upon me for emotional support.....I began to wonder if it was HaShem's plan that I should be there to support my mom....but that was just a rationalization. I had no idea why I couldn't 'push forward' with my Aliyah plans, but there was plenty of 'family' drama to keep me distracted... Continually, I tried to volunteer to write, or speak for various Jewish organizations, but no one seemed to have any use for me. I felt that I had all this incredible Torah that I learned from Rav Kahane, but no one to teach it to....or share it with....One good thing that happened that year - Rav Kahane got elected to the Kennest, despite all the efforts of the leftists and Hellenists to keep him silent. But his hoped for effect on the government was very short lived. Before the next election (where his Kach party was projected to get 12 seats, and be a major factor in forming a government), he was banned from running again. He was deemed to be 'racist...' by quoting from the Torah and the Rambam (Maimonides). What a travesty.... In June of 1985, we were blessed with a lovely daughter, Ayala Rivka, who was just the sweetest baby you could imagine.....blond hair, blue eyes (yeah, just like Hanoch, I know you're thinking) At the same time, I was hoping that someway, somehow, we could all go on Aliyah....but as the saying goes, "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail..." I got my first credit card at that time, and soon found myself accumulating debt. I ignored the pressing 'relationship' issues in my life, by focusing on my lovely daughter. That summer (1985), I took Ayala in her carriage, to hear Rav Kahane speak at a local shul. At the end of the speech, I approached him, wheeling the carriage. We hadn't 'touched base' in a number of years at that point, and he clearly assumed that I must have made Aliyah, that I was in Israel. I knew it, when he looked up and saw me, with the carriage, and said, in a truly surprised tone, "What are you still doing here???" He was soon surrounded with admirers, and I couldn't get near him. Those were the last words he ever spoke to me (he was murdered in New York in 1990)......I felt like a low-life dirtbag, for being in America, but was sure my job luck (being highly qualified, but underpaid) would some how change, miraculously. In Judaism, we are told not to depend on miracles, but I clearly was (looking at it with hindsight).... There was a young guy in shul that I heard was "involved" in a recent spate of bombings (no casualties, just warning stuff), I'll just call him by his last initial, 'C' Well, C came up to me one Shabbat, and asked me, "Hey - aren't you Hanoch Young? I heard you used to be an activist" OUCH!!!! That hurt, more then you can imagine, how did I go from an 'activist' to a has been, over night? Sighhhhhhh Poor C, he got involved with this new version of what I'll call, "Jewish Armed Resistance" and was caught and convicted (along with several others..). He was a sweet, good looking guy, maybe 20 - 21 years old, and was about to be sentenced. The weekend before, he took an overdose of sleeping pills and passed away in his sleep. Accident? Suicide? I'll never know, and neither will anyone else...but what a shame......he was such a nice guy... My salary gradually rose to $44,000, as my youngest daughter Kyra Miriam was born, in May, 1988. That amount of money, for a family of four in New York? There just wasn't enough money to go around. The number of credit cards grew, as did the amounts charged on them.....it was becoming harder, and harder to envision Aliyah.... My daughters names are actually a 'play' on each other: 'Ayala' means female deer, D-E-E-R while 'Kyra' comes from 'Yakira' which means dear, D-E-A-R......I know it seems a bit lame now, but I thought I was really clever then....sighhhhhhhh.... I was the 'primary care provider' for my daughters, which was the politically correct term for: "Mr. Mom." Although it was very, very difficult to juggle work responsibilities, and make all the class birthday parties, and special assemblies, I did, and I was thrilled to be such a huge part of their lives. My mom was a BIG help in raising the girls, and they adored her, and listened to everything she said, with no question (ME, they questioned!! LOL). In fact, they were so well behaved when they were with her, that people used to say we should rent them out, to couples who were considering having children!! And mom was responsible for MY sanity, encouraging me unconditionally, and being as supportive as any human being could. I have not been the same without her....but that comes later... Both girls started their education in Jewish schools, and began attending a Yeshiva, a Jewish Day School. The payments were almost $6,000/child (and those are post-tax dollars, folks...), but I was determined that MY children would have a real Jewish education, and wouldn't have to pursue it, post-college, like I did. Little did I know that when they reached High School, it would begin costing $16,000/year for each of them, with summer camp costing $6,000/each....as a Financial Planner friend pointed out - I was using ALL of my disposable income for my girls education, and then some!! But I would do anything for my girls, I wouldn't walk out on them, and I wouldn't scrimp on their education. But more on them, a bit later. As I mentioned, some new group began a series of bombings on behalf of some Jewish causes, and it turns out that they included some "old-timers" - guys from MY era.....so, guess who became a suspect again? At this point, I was running a Fitness Center for a large New York law firm, and picked up the phone one morning, to hear someone introduce themselves as,: Larry Wack, of the FBI "Joint Terrorist Task Force!" I couldn't figure out how he got my number at work, and he wasn't volunteering much info at all, but firing lots of questions at me. Nicely, but firmly. Now, the Feds aren't so frightening when you KNOW you didn't do anything, and they had NOTHING on you :-), right? Not really....'cause they're always trying to trick you. Firstly - why call me? Like I said, it was old-timers" (someone active 10 years before) that were involved, there was a suspect that actually lived in the Bronx near me when I was growing up, and then lived in the other half of the building (think LARGE apartment buildings, folks) I moved into when Ayala was born - a total coincidence. But the best part - they found 11 weapons and explosives at a guys house, whose last name happened to be - Young.....no relation to me, but they didn't know that! Larry called me often, sometimes at work, sometimes at home, cajoling, threatening, playing 'dumb' sometimes. He knew the Shabbat I had visited my friend Baruch in Kiryat Arba back in '82 (remember when I carried the Ak-47, it was THAT Shabbat). He told me that I was a good looking guy, and photographed well. I asked him to please send me copies, so I could show my kids. He never did..LOL Eventually, they realized that I truly didn't have any info that would be of value to them, and stopped calling. And then I found out how they got my work #. Turns out that they had gone to my building's management office, and asked for my work contact #. Janet, the woman in the office said that I was a very nice man, and a very good father, so no, she wouldn't give them ANY information! Okay they said, but they would come into her office and empty every, single file on the floor. That worked - she gave them my work #..... I tried to focus on my Torah studies, but with two little girls, too many hours at work, a mom who needed me....sighhh....and what about Aliyah? I felt like I was sinking into quicksand, slowly sinking, with no way out. It wasn't supposed to be like this..... Coming up - the UIWU, and my life's mission(s)...or so I thought.... _____ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/a52493d5/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Mon Dec 3 00:18:10 2007 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 01:18:10 EST Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Message-ID: Dear Bonnie, Thanks for forwarding your Christian teacher's take on the subject. It appears that this teacher has studied the Scripture. I wish I had more time to respond tonight but must try and get some sleep. I have a very early day tomorrow and my wife and I just got in. We took the day off and I have tried to stay away from the computer. I will say in short that I, like Blair, recognize the distinction between Judah and Israel. In fact this is one of the primary points that I show students of Scripture every chance I get. I am actually affiliated with the United Israel World Union, which has promoted this awareness for over 65 years (_www.unitedisrael.org_ (http://www.unitedisrael.org) ). I do believe that Judah's return to the land is a fulfillment of prophecy, but like Blair, I would agree that this is only partial since the masses of the "lost tribes" are not yet manifested. And yet, in our day and to this point, they represent the part of "Israel" that is visible and so I feel obligated to proclaim that they are Israel in a world of Bible teachers who quite often have "appropriated" the title through various forms of replacement theology. Whoever else may be Israel, it is Judah that has remained the sole visible "Israel" in the world. All Bible interpreters worth their salt, seek to understand things in their original context. My modern "association of world events" with events from the book of Joel, despite knowing what I know of the context still "gives me pause" as I read it and watch current events. My reason for including it in my newsletter was to draw a correlation between the events described therein and any attempt to divide the land - the very subject that the world leaders now consider. It is not that I believe, nor did I intend to suggest that the Annapolis conference was a fulfillment of Joel 3, but the events described in that passage certainly made for an interesting parallel. I tend to think that God would plead with "all nations" anytime that they seek to divide the land. That these prophetic texts are often interpreted in different contexts is certain and I too participate in this ancient practice. The community at Qumran used these texts from the Hebrew prophets as they looked at their world and so do I....and so does your Christian teacher I would assume. We should be very careful though and perhaps this is a lesson to me as I send things out to be very clear on what I mean when I say what I say. For instance, I wonder what people would say about Peter's use of Joel 2:28ff to describe the events that he reportedly witnessed in his time and described in Acts 2. There, it seems, he sees these events as those described by Joel. A re-reading of those texts by modern readers might cause them to question whether the events were completely fulfilled in the upper room. Or perhaps Peter meant only to draw a correlation between the events he witnessed and the words of the ancient prophets of Israel. So to try and be more clear, let me preface my original remarks with a few more sentences and then attach them here again. The content of Joel 3 and the topics on the table of the peace talks have some points of congruity in my understanding. This is not to say that Joel 3 is fulfilled by this Annapolis meeting. There is however, as I understand it, a desire to chalaq the land, specifically Jerusalem which is inhabited by a portion of Judah. While those scattered are certainly Israel - the pleading of God to all nations is in this passage, at least in part on account of this parting of the land. I hope that this helps, and I would love for Blair to join this list. I am certain that we could learn from one another. Please tell Blair that I appreciate the comments. Shalom, Ross ____________________________ Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel had to > say about the subject that they now consider. > > > > In the third chapter of Joel we read: > > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall > bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather > all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage > Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my > land. > > > > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all nations is > brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on "in the > news". Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/b685c8eb/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Mon Dec 3 01:42:25 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 22:42:25 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Hannukkah References: <9F0501EA-B278-4644-9997-E2280FA228F8@alaska.com> Message-ID: >> Fwd: Reb Zalman has composed the following Al Hanissim / For the >> Miracles >> Al Hanissim / For the Miracles >> >> Based upon the traditional Hanukkah text which gets inserted into >> the tefillah / the eighteen benedictions and birkat hamazon / >> Grace After Meals, Reb Zalman has composed the following update, >> which can be used in its stead: >> ? >> >> Happy Hanukkah. Gabbai Seth Fishman (BLOG Editor) >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/e341db23/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 55088 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/e341db23/attachment.jpg From b.nelson at alaska.com Mon Dec 3 02:56:03 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 23:56:03 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] =?iso-8859-1?q?Reb_Zalman_Legacy_Project_=BB_Blog_Arc?= =?iso-8859-1?q?hive_=BB_Envisioning_Success_in_Annapolis?= Message-ID: <99F2FAE4-3B98-41DA-B485-EE50F5F96E6B@alaska.com> http://www.rzlp.org/wordpress/?p=33 ? Maoz Tzur Al Hanissim / For the Miracles ? Envisioning Success in Annapolis From Reb Zalman: ?It seems to me that all of us need to exert our hope and faith for the success of the negotiations in Annapolis this week. We should hold the image of a Middle East that has healed from its deep wounds. On both sides the narrative has to be changed radically. ?The atavistic reinforcement of reptilian brain reactivity cannot be changed by the mere ?rational? cortex language, the type of language that will be used during that conference. ?It is not likely that the shift will happen without a spiritual transparency to the will of God and the healing of the planet. ?There?s a missing ingredient, not to be found in any discussions of the peace issue from either side. That ingredient is the recognition of a benefit of having the other as neighbor. ?At the moment, the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank (also, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Lebanon), do not seem to see any benefit in having the democratic state of Israel as a neighbor in their midst. And Israel also does not seem to see a benefit of having an Arab/Muslim/Palestinian state as an intrinsic entity either. ?Until this vision is added added, the discussions will lack something crucial, negatively influencing the likelihood of a peaceful outcome. ?With the Palestinians not having agreed for themselves that there might be a benefit in having Israel as a Democratic state as their neighbor, the Palestinians will feel they have nothing to gain in negotiations other than trying to overcome the reluctance of Israel to disappear, and since this will not likely happen, they will therefore feel themselves forced to adjust their basic stated objective all of which will cause the peace work not to succeed. So before a successful outcome is possible, the vision of the Palestinians has to change and come to terms with the existence of Israel in their midst. Otherwise, the meeting will turn out as a series of posturings. ?And the same holds for Israel. Israel must see a benefit in the existence of an Arab/Muslim/Palestinian state in an intrinsic way. With Israel not having agreed for itself that there might be a benefit of an Arab/Muslim/Palestinian state, Israel will feel it has nothing to gain in negotiations other than a temporary respite from bombings and attacks. But, this objective is not enough as a going- in position. Entering into the negotiations with only this objective will not lead to the hoped-for outcome. It certainly would be a benefit for Israel if those Arabs who would like to live in their own state, one that they could govern for themselves, thus removing a demographic liability for Israel, could do so. But just trying to reduce the bombings will not provide enough incentive to show the kinds of concessions and adjustments which would be necessary for peace. ?So there must be a deep change of orientation on both sides, one which will lead to the ability of success, of mutual benefit, of neighborliness in which both sides would see at the end of the negotiations a viable and sustainable win-win situation. It would be of benefit for Israel to be on neighborly terms with people who could augment their workforce and offer agricultural and other products to Israel. In the same way it would be of benefit for the Palestinians to have free trade with Israel to harden their currency with the wages earned in Israel and to have access to the medical, financial, technical and scientific opportunities that are available in Israel. ?So it is not only the cessation of belligerence that needs to be the aim of the conversations there but also an ability to begin to conceptualize the dream of the United States Of The Middle East with Jerusalem internationalized (and the UN relocating there). Or if not now, at least we can look toward the creation of a free trade zone as a first step. ?The question of course is that it might be easier to convince Israelis to let go of the territory inhabited by Palestinian/Muslim/ Arabs and thus save herself much friction and difficulties. It is still a long way off before one can count on the vision of the benefit of Israel for the Palestinians and their neighbors. ?So please join with me and exert your hope and faith for the success of the negotiations in Annapolis this week. We should hold the image of a Middle East that has healed from its deep wounds. It is not likely that the shift will happen without a spiritual transparency to the will of God and the healing of the planet.? Please Share any thoughts or comments that will help us all in our visioning work for a peaceful Middle East. Gabbai Seth Fishman (BLOG Editor) This entry was posted on Sunday, November 25th, 2007 at 1:21 pm and is filed under Post-Triumphalism, Deep Ecumenism, Reb Zalman says. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site. One Response to ?Envisioning Success in Annapolis? Gabbai Seth Fishman (Blog Editor) Says: November 28th, 2007 at 10:50 am For some comments regarding this post, please see http:// velveteenrabbi.blogs.com/blog/2007/11/hopes-for-peace.html Leave a Reply Name (required) Mail (will not be published) (required) Website Reb Zalman Legacy Project is proudly powered by WordPress Entries (RSS) and Comments (RSS). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071202/9da5a701/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Dec 3 05:36:45 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 06:36:45 EST Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga...Part VII Message-ID: Hey Pat - You've brought a big smile to my face this morning....toda! Thank you for the wonderful words of encouragement. Have a great day!! Gratefully, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/4036e246/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 06:37:43 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 06:37:43 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Message-ID: Well put Ross. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 00:18:10 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Dear Bonnie, Thanks for forwarding your Christian teacher's take on the subject. It appears that this teacher has studied the Scripture. I wish I had more time to respond tonight but must try and get some sleep. I have a very early day tomorrow and my wife and I just got in. We took the day off and I have tried to stay away from the computer. I will say in short that I, like Blair, recognize the distinction between Judah and Israel. In fact this is one of the primary points that I show students of Scripture every chance I get. I am actually affiliated with the United Israel World Union, which has promoted this awareness for over 65 years (www.unitedisrael.org). I do believe that Judah's return to the land is a fulfillment of prophecy, but like Blair, I would agree that this is only partial since the masses of the "lost tribes" are not yet manifested. And yet, in our day and to this point, they represent the part of "Israel" that is visible and so I feel obligated to proclaim that they are Israel in a world of Bible teachers who quite often have "appropriated" the title through various forms of replacement theology. Whoever else may be Israel, it is Judah that has remained the sole visible "Israel" in the world. All Bible interpreters worth their salt, seek to understand things in their original context. My modern "association of world events" with events from the book of Joel, despite knowing what I know of the context still "gives me pause" as I read it and watch current events. My reason for including it in my newsletter was to draw a correlation between the events described therein and any attempt to divide the land - the very subject that the world leaders now consider. It is not that I believe, nor did I intend to suggest that the Annapolis conference was a fulfillment of Joel 3, but the events described in that passage certainly made for an interesting parallel. I tend to think that God would plead with "all nations" anytime that they seek to divide the land. That these prophetic texts are often interpreted in different contexts is certain and I too participate in this ancient practice. The community at Qumran used these texts from the Hebrew prophets as they looked at their world and so do I....and so does your Christian teacher I would assume. We should be very careful though and perhaps this is a lesson to me as I send things out to be very clear on what I mean when I say what I say. For instance, I wonder what people would say about Peter's use of Joel 2:28ff to describe the events that he reportedly witnessed in his time and described in Acts 2. There, it seems, he sees these events as those described by Joel. A re-reading of those texts by modern readers might cause them to question whether the events were completely fulfilled in the upper room. Or perhaps Peter meant only to draw a correlation between the events he witnessed and the words of the ancient prophets of Israel. So to try and be more clear, let me preface my original remarks with a few more sentences and then attach them here again. The content of Joel 3 and the topics on the table of the peace talks have some points of congruity in my understanding. This is not to say that Joel 3 is fulfilled by this Annapolis meeting. There is however, as I understand it, a desire to chalaq the land, specifically Jerusalem which is inhabited by a portion of Judah. While those scattered are certainly Israel - the pleading of God to all nations is in this passage, at least in part on account of this parting of the land. I hope that this helps, and I would love for Blair to join this list. I am certain that we could learn from one another. Please tell Blair that I appreciate the comments. Shalom, Ross ____________________________ Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel had to > say about the subject that they now consider. > > > > In the third chapter of Joel we read: > > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall > bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather > all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage > Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my > land. > > > > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all nations is > brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on "in the > news". Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org ________________________________ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/ef8f50e7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Dec 3 07:51:07 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 08:51:07 EST Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga...Part VII Message-ID: Betty, Betty....you DO realize that I'm becoming 'addicted' to your words of encouragement, don't you? Toda!! Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/a1b4bafb/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Dec 3 08:37:12 2007 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 09:37:12 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] We will do it, We will hear it! Message-ID: <006601c835ba$0136d8e0$0200a8c0@marvin> As I read the letters of each of us, I see where God is working in all of our life's, It's just a little different but still almost the same for each of us. I noticed years ago, when reading the Bible, looking at the stories of the characters there, that they were struggling with earthly things just like we do, but they were focused on God and we all know that God is focused on each of us, his children. Abraham our father, was a friend to God - Such a special relationship - can we fathom what this means? One of the things I think we fell to see as we read the text of the Torah and Prophets is that these people were human. They struggled everyday with earthly things... wife's, husbands, relationships, jobs, neighbor's, children, sick children, sick animals, crops that might not come in, shortage of food in the house, bills to be paid, old and sick parents, dieing siblings.. What we call life. When I was a young man - I could run all day, work 5 men my equals into the ground, In my minds eye, I could see myself standing with King David, fighting and killing Philistines, taking back the land... My father told the story of how I would retell the bible stories, as a young child, I learned in Sunday school class with such vividness, excitement and awareness, as if I was telling something I had experienced and lived instead of a story I was told by a dear old sainted Grandmother in Sunday school. My father is gone now, but I bet he was so proud as we parents are wont to be, when we watch our children, as I screamed, ran around and waved my arms as - we parted the Red Sea, slew goliath and hacked off his head or took the city as the walls came down at Jericho. Was I just being a kid.., this thing today, something else next week, teenage years and girls and cars... no time for God. God was doing something in me at an early age, that I will not live long enough to get over... If you understand what I mean. I think each of us have a similar story or feeling , a spiritual tie that binds us to Our creator, something we can't put our finger on but we know it is there and we search, look and live our life's as best we can with God always standing just in our shadow, always leading and guiding us to were we need to come. Jer 29:13 And ye shall seeke me, and finde me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. My opinion... we as humans like everything neatly packaged, wrapped up with a bow and the tell me the whole story from start to finish in 45 minutes. At most within two hours.. Hollywood figured this out. But, God is not limited by time and space. We see in scripture were it takes months and years and a life time for God to do something. Our life's only run 50,60,70,80, 90 short years .. God's program is a much larger time span. In my search these last 20 years, I have not been able to fit it all in a neat little package. I take what I can and leave the rest till another day. What does not make sense now, does or might later. For those of us coming from deep within Christianity there is a DE- construction, a destroying of false ideals and concepts. During this time I, we and you will experience to some degree based on our own personalities and temperaments a sense of loss, an uncertainty about everything, a fear of dieing and going to hell. Then the flight or fight part of us kicks in and we want to run away and forget it all. Religion is so screwed up I just want to live my life and forget it.. We scream to the heavens. "kill then all and let God sort it out". Then the fight part takes over.. We want to fight.. Southern slang - Whoop the devil out of somebody. The church, the preacher.. We don't care. We realized we have been lied to and we are mad.. Upset. emotionally just destroyed. But the master is working this all out and my life is just a small part of his master plan. One of my teachers, said this path is not for lazy people, it takes work, sweat, toll and tears to study and slowly try to correct our understanding as we journey back to the ancients. Have you ever rejoiced and been flooded with peace and happiness as you saw a truth in scripture, or learned something that caused you to weep and cry like you had just received a phone call of the death of a loved one. I will never know it all, but my faith is in YHVH, Our creator. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Don't just take something because someone you respect says it.. It must make rational, logical sense to you. And then be tied to the foundation of Torah. My view point.. There are two(2) kinds of people in the world. Abrahams children(12 tribes) yes, Abraham had children who were not of these 12 tribes, and gentiles = everyone else. God separated the children of Israel and they are not to be numbered with the nations. Who are they? We may know some, we may think we know a lot, but ultimately God known's who each of us are. In the end he will separate the sheep form the goats.. or is that goats from the sheep? He will place us with the standard we are to stand with. A point to ponder on the Talmud... Without a Rabbi to teach us, we can only gleam just so much. In my understanding there is a mind set / understanding you have to have to understand what the Talmud teaches. To just go to it and read like you would any other book will leave you miss understanding most of what you read!. So. I personally respect it but find much that is hard to understand. Do I toss it out like so many, NO! Why? It is my understanding that during the second temple time period their were many different sects, we have 4 mention in the N.T. Pharisee, Sadducee, essene and those followers of the Nazarene. (trying to recall from memory).. The Pharisee's followed the oral law and the Sadducees' did not take the Oral law. Only the text of the torah. One of the arguments that convinces me we should learn form the oral law is that with out it, we have no understanding of how to observe some of the commandments. Also, if you take a strict reading of the torah(first 5) text you can't find the doctrine of the resurrection.. Which by the way, the Sadducees did not except. So, in my mind there must be more, that helps us understand the ten words, delivered to Moses. I think many of our questions will not be answered till "YHVH returns" as Dr. Tabor stated the other day in a post. But, instead of trying to packaged it in a neat little package, we should be humble and teachable with a meek spirit to learn and follow truth as we find it and come to understand it. The children of Israel told Moses at Sinai. We will do it and we will hear it. What does that mean to me? I will do today what I know today the best I can do, today! I will hear(learn) some more and apply it and tomorrow I will do the best I can today! I enjoy the dialogue. every post. "The Young and the Arrested", shows exactly how God is at work in each of our life's to bring us to were we need to be just at the time we need to be there. Shalom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/8c220ffd/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 08:43:39 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 08:43:39 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] We will do it, We will hear it! In-Reply-To: <006601c835ba$0136d8e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Amen! John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] We will do it, We will hear it! As I read the letters of each of us, I see where God is working in all of our life's, It's just a little different but still almost the same for each of us. I noticed years ago, when reading the Bible, looking at the stories of the characters there, that they were struggling with earthly things just like we do, but they were focused on God and we all know that God is focused on each of us, his children. Abraham our father, was a friend to God - Such a special relationship - can we fathom what this means? One of the things I think we fell to see as we read the text of the Torah and Prophets is that these people were human. They struggled everyday with earthly things..... wife's, husbands, relationships, jobs, neighbor's, children, sick children, sick animals, crops that might not come in, shortage of food in the house, bills to be paid, old and sick parents, dieing siblings.... What we call life. When I was a young man - I could run all day, work 5 men my equals into the ground, In my minds eye, I could see myself standing with King David, fighting and killing Philistines, taking back the land..... My father told the story of how I would retell the bible stories, as a young child, I learned in Sunday school class with such vividness, excitement and awareness, as if I was telling something I had experienced and lived instead of a story I was told by a dear old sainted Grandmother in Sunday school. My father is gone now, but I bet he was so proud as we parents are wont to be, when we watch our children, as I screamed, ran around and waved my arms as - we parted the Red Sea, slew goliath and hacked off his head or took the city as the walls came down at Jericho. Was I just being a kid......, this thing today, something else next week, teenage years and girls and cars..... no time for God. God was doing something in me at an early age, that I will not live long enough to get over..... If you understand what I mean. I think each of us have a similar story or feeling , a spiritual tie that binds us to Our creator, something we can't put our finger on but we know it is there and we search, look and live our life's as best we can with God always standing just in our shadow, always leading and guiding us to were we need to come. Jer 29:13 And ye shall seeke me, and finde me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. My opinion..... we as humans like everything neatly packaged, wrapped up with a bow and the tell me the whole story from start to finish in 45 minutes. At most within two hours.... Hollywood figured this out. But, God is not limited by time and space. We see in scripture were it takes months and years and a life time for God to do something. Our life's only run 50,60,70,80, 90 short years .... God's program is a much larger time span. In my search these last 20 years, I have not been able to fit it all in a neat little package. I take what I can and leave the rest till another day. What does not make sense now, does or might later. For those of us coming from deep within Christianity there is a DE- construction, a destroying of false ideals and concepts. During this time I, we and you will experience to some degree based on our own personalities and temperaments a sense of loss, an uncertainty about everything, a fear of dieing and going to hell. Then the flight or fight part of us kicks in and we want to run away and forget it all. Religion is so screwed up I just want to live my life and forget it.... We scream to the heavens... "kill then all and let God sort it out". Then the fight part takes over.... We want to fight.... Southern slang - Whoop the devil out of somebody. The church, the preacher.... We don't care... We realized we have been lied to and we are mad.... Upset... emotionally just destroyed. But the master is working this all out and my life is just a small part of his master plan. One of my teachers, said this path is not for lazy people, it takes work, sweat, toll and tears to study and slowly try to correct our understanding as we journey back to the ancients. Have you ever rejoiced and been flooded with peace and happiness as you saw a truth in scripture, or learned something that caused you to weep and cry like you had just received a phone call of the death of a loved one. I will never know it all, but my faith is in YHVH, Our creator. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Don't just take something because someone you respect says it.... It must make rational, logical sense to you. And then be tied to the foundation of Torah. My view point.... There are two(2) kinds of people in the world. Abrahams children(12 tribes) yes, Abraham had children who were not of these 12 tribes, and gentiles = everyone else. God separated the children of Israel and they are not to be numbered with the nations. Who are they? We may know some, we may think we know a lot, but ultimately God known's who each of us are. In the end he will separate the sheep form the goats.... or is that goats from the sheep? He will place us with the standard we are to stand with. A point to ponder on the Talmud..... Without a Rabbi to teach us, we can only gleam just so much. In my understanding there is a mind set / understanding you have to have to understand what the Talmud teaches. To just go to it and read like you would any other book will leave you miss understanding most of what you read!. So. I personally respect it but find much that is hard to understand. Do I toss it out like so many, NO! Why? It is my understanding that during the second temple time period their were many different sects, we have 4 mention in the N.T. Pharisee, Sadducee, essene and those followers of the Nazarene. (trying to recall from memory).... The Pharisee's followed the oral law and the Sadducees' did not take the Oral law. Only the text of the torah. One of the arguments that convinces me we should learn form the oral law is that with out it, we have no understanding of how to observe some of the commandments. Also, if you take a strict reading of the torah(first 5) text you can't find the doctrine of the resurrection.... Which by the way, the Sadducees did not except. So, in my mind there must be more, that helps us understand the ten words, delivered to Moses. I think many of our questions will not be answered till "YHVH returns" as Dr. Tabor stated the other day in a post. But, instead of trying to packaged it in a neat little package, we should be humble and teachable with a meek spirit to learn and follow truth as we find it and come to understand it. The children of Israel told Moses at Sinai. We will do it and we will hear it. What does that mean to me? I will do today what I know today the best I can do, today! I will hear(learn) some more and apply it and tomorrow I will do the best I can today! I enjoy the dialogue... every post... "The Young and the Arrested", shows exactly how God is at work in each of our life's to bring us to were we need to be just at the time we need to be there. Shalom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/d28503d4/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 09:10:40 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:10:40 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud In-Reply-To: <012501c8356c$ad7cb370$653c66c9@bettygivin> References: <120320070354.8769.47537DD7000C6BAF0000224122193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <012501c8356c$ad7cb370$653c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: I almost missed this one, Betty, and it's just terrific! You are so very right! Those other Scriptures are part of this picture. And the ONE HEART is tantamount to the school of fish thing, of course! Baruch Hashem that you caught this! And I'm so thankful for Marvin's "blank slate" idea. That's our starting point! You're such a blessing, and I appreciate you more than I can say ~ Pat From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & TalmudDate: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 23:23:45 -0600 John, Pat, I just had a thought?what about how this ?school of fish? idea relates to Jeremiah 32:37ff ?And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for their good, and that of their children forever after them?? After that comes the simply wonderful verse that tells what G-d will do with His whole heart and with His whole soul?see verse 41! I think you know it! It has to do with G-d rejoicing in the good of His people and planting them in His Land! I really think this all relates as well to Malachi 3 when it speaks of Elijah the Prophet coming in the last days to turn the heart (singular) of the fathers to the children and the heart (singular) of the children to the fathers! Beginnings of this are happening today?look at how many people (many who think of themselves of Gentiles) are turning to Torah and to Father Abraham! It makes me wonder how many are truly are from the lost tribes, those that Yeshua said he came to seek out, those he called ?the House of Israel.? It was first thru Yeshua that I personally experienced this call of the heart towards Torah?perhaps this was the beginning of the writing it in my own heart?I am not sure how all this works?I just know that the call and the pull to Torah was undeniable to me and to many others that I know. Perhaps this is part of what it is all about. I know that the process is certainly not complete in me? This putting of the Torah in our ?inward parts,? and writing it on our hearts (Jer 31:32), does seem to be an ongoing promise, which will finally have its culmination in the last days when Malachi 3 comes to pass. But of course it will be complete fully when no one will have to teach his neighbor because we will all know G-d!!! But in order to allow this to happen, I do think that we have to offer up our hearts as a ?blank slate.? I am not sure (was it Marvin) who first used this terminology). We have to let go of our preconceived thoughts and ideas as they are brought before us?and this is a process as well?.most of us cannot do this all at once. And these preconceived thoughts and ideas or baggage/clutter may be different for each of us. It is late and I find that I am rambling?have to get up early tomorrow?so I will say lyla tov (good night) to all? Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.netSent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 9:54 PMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud Wow. Interesting analogy. I gotta go re-read that. --John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from patricia robbins : -------------- Thank you for bringing up that point, John. Yes!!! A resounding YES, in fact! I love what Yeshua gave to me. I'm most thankful for my Christian background because I learned to listen to G-d's Ruach Hakodesh. I didn't' mean to sound like that process has not already begun. What I was actually referring to is something John Hulley once said. He compared the experience that Jeremiah is talking about to a school of fish. He said that he thinks when this event has fully dawned that we will all be so attuned to G-d's voice, that we will look like a school of fish! You know how when you are watching them and all of sudden they seem to all just switch directions at once? It's like they are all of one mind and one accord! Ever since I heard that analogy, that's the picture I get when I read Jer. 31:32. I know that what you are saying is right.& nbsp; We've seen the beginning, but I believe the future will be even more glorious! Pat> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 01:37:53 +0000> > Hey Pat,> > Personally, I fully agree with your assessment of Mishnah and Torah.> > Just a point of debate though. I am one who believes that the process of Torah being written on our hearts was begun with Yeshua. The issue of divinity aside I believe that as Messiah, his example is indeed the "light" that came into the world. While it has taken much of my life iI have to say that this light is the reason I am studying Torah today. So my point is that while I certainly look forward to the completion of God's promise, I am convinced it has already begun.> > What say you?> > Sent via Black Berry by AT&T> > -----Original Message-----> From: patricia robbins > > Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:23:10 > To:> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud> > > Hi Roy,> > I don't believe it nullifies, replaces or should in any way be placed above G-d's Word. I truly believe it of utmost importance to diligently study T'NaKh, pray and actively listen for His guidance in all things.> > If we turn to something as the final word for every interpretation, can that not become an idol to us? Can it not divert our eyes from studying His Word and looking to Him to direct us? Should we not be looking forward to the day when Torah is written on our hearts (Jer:31:33, or 31:32 in the Hebrew Bible) ?> > I think I look at the words of Mishnah and Talmud as if I were reading any wise, Torah-observant person's opinion on specific matters. Their opinion may be venerated and wonderful, but I still weigh it in light of God's Word because He said that His Word is not too hard for us to understand:> > "...if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the L-RD thy G-d, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are WRITTEN (as opposed to orally spoken) in this book of the Tora, and if thou turn to the L-RD thy G-d with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that w e may hear it, and do it? But the word is very near to thee, in thy mouth, and IN THY HEART, that thou mayst do it." Deuteronomy 30: 10-14> > There are even some interpretations in Mishnah and Talmud that I feel negate G-d's Word. > > >From what I have been able to glean from my own Rabbi, and subsequently from others, in the understanding of such "rulings," it is considered that those who sit in Moses' seat have been given authority even to change what God has said. I just have not been able to buy this. Perhaps I have misunderstood what they are saying, but I don't think so.> > Mishnah and Talmud are very good subjects for dialogue. I will be most interested in hearing other opinions. I hold some rather strong ones on this subject, but I want to correct any stakes I may have put into the ground that should be moved! > > Endeavoring to remain teachable,> > Pat> > > > > > ----------------> From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:59:10 -0600> > > > I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud. I suppose I need to start. I have some questions you all may be able to help me with. I understand it is the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form? I have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah? Do you think the Talmud is really Gods words or tradition? > > Thanks Roy > > > > ----------------> > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole > > Rick, > > Good question. - What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? > > In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far. However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were The people complained and God sent the serpents. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. > > Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 > > The word man - in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some. If we go back to the first of the chapter we see the people spoke against God, and against Moses. I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. Rashi in the Chumash says, when the people spoke against God and Moses, they placed the servant on a par with his Master Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the church have done with Jesus? The Chumash goes on to say our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) > > The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu. Jewish Encyclop. > > Shalom > > > > > ----------------> > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... > > > > What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten?> > > Rick > > > > > _______________________________________________> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/de20cfaf/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 09:29:34 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:29:34 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] We will do it, We will hear it! Message-ID: This was awesome, Marvin! And thank you so much for your thoughts on the Talmud. I've probably thrown the baby out with the bath water concerning this particular subject. I'll try to be more patient.....................and hang in there longer to learn from it (but there's still some stuff I REALLY don't like)!!!!! Please write as often as possible. Your posts are wonderful! And it seems as though each of us has puzzle pieces that help the others. Pat From: mhyde7 at tds.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 09:37:12 -0500Subject: [Dialogue] We will do it, We will hear it! As I read the letters of each of us, I see where God is working in all of our life?s, It?s just a little different but still almost the same for each of us. I noticed years ago, when reading the Bible, looking at the stories of the characters there, that they were struggling with earthly things just like we do, but they were focused on God and we all know that God is focused on each of us, his children. Abraham our father, was a friend to God - Such a special relationship ? can we fathom what this means? One of the things I think we fell to see as we read the text of the Torah and Prophets is that these people were human. They struggled everyday with earthly things?.. wife?s, husbands, relationships, jobs, neighbor?s, children, sick children, sick animals, crops that might not come in, shortage of food in the house, bills to be paid, old and sick parents, dieing siblings?. What we call life. When I was a young man ? I could run all day, work 5 men my equals into the ground, In my minds eye, I could see myself standing with King David, fighting and killing Philistines, taking back the land?.. My father told the story of how I would retell the bible stories, as a young child, I learned in Sunday school class with such vividness, excitement and awareness, as if I was telling something I had experienced and lived instead of a story I was told by a dear old sainted Grandmother in Sunday school. My father is gone now, but I bet he was so proud as we parents are wont to be, when we watch our children, as I screamed, ran around and waved my arms as ? we parted the Red Sea, slew goliath and hacked off his head or took the city as the walls came down at Jericho. Was I just being a kid??, this thing today, something else next week, teenage years and girls and cars?.. no time for God. God was doing something in me at an early age, that I will not live long enough to get over?.. If you understand what I mean. I think each of us have a similar story or feeling , a spiritual tie that binds us to Our creator, something we can?t put our finger on but we know it is there and we search, look and live our life?s as best we can with God always standing just in our shadow, always leading and guiding us to were we need to come. Jer 29:13 And ye shall seeke me, and finde me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. My opinion?.. we as humans like everything neatly packaged, wrapped up with a bow and the tell me the whole story from start to finish in 45 minutes. At most within two hours?. Hollywood figured this out. But, God is not limited by time and space. We see in scripture were it takes months and years and a life time for God to do something. Our life?s only run 50,60,70,80, 90 short years ?. God?s program is a much larger time span. In my search these last 20 years, I have not been able to fit it all in a neat little package. I take what I can and leave the rest till another day. What does not make sense now, does or might later. For those of us coming from deep within Christianity there is a DE- construction, a destroying of false ideals and concepts. During this time I, we and you will experience to some degree based on our own personalities and temperaments a sense of loss, an uncertainty about everything, a fear of dieing and going to hell. Then the flight or fight part of us kicks in and we want to run away and forget it all. Religion is so screwed up I just want to live my life and forget it?. We scream to the heavens? ?kill then all and let God sort it out?. Then the fight part takes over?. We want to fight?. Southern slang ? Whoop the devil out of somebody. The church, the preacher?. We don?t care? We realized we have been lied to and we are mad?. Upset? emotionally just destroyed. But the master is working this all out and my life is just a small part of his master plan. One of my teachers, said this path is not for lazy people, it takes work, sweat, toll and tears to study and slowly try to correct our understanding as we journey back to the ancients. Have you ever rejoiced and been flooded with peace and happiness as you saw a truth in scripture, or learned something that caused you to weep and cry like you had just received a phone call of the death of a loved one. I will never know it all, but my faith is in YHVH, Our creator. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Don?t just take something because someone you respect says it?. It must make rational, logical sense to you. And then be tied to the foundation of Torah. My view point?. There are two(2) kinds of people in the world. Abrahams children(12 tribes) yes, Abraham had children who were not of these 12 tribes, and gentiles = everyone else. God separated the children of Israel and they are not to be numbered with the nations. Who are they? We may know some, we may think we know a lot, but ultimately God known?s who each of us are. In the end he will separate the sheep form the goats?. or is that goats from the sheep? He will place us with the standard we are to stand with. A point to ponder on the Talmud?.. Without a Rabbi to teach us, we can only gleam just so much. In my understanding there is a mind set / understanding you have to have to understand what the Talmud teaches. To just go to it and read like you would any other book will leave you miss understanding most of what you read!. So. I personally respect it but find much that is hard to understand. Do I toss it out like so many, NO! Why? It is my understanding that during the second temple time period their were many different sects, we have 4 mention in the N.T. Pharisee, Sadducee, essene and those followers of the Nazarene. (trying to recall from memory)?. The Pharisee?s followed the oral law and the Sadducees? did not take the Oral law. Only the text of the torah. One of the arguments that convinces me we should learn form the oral law is that with out it, we have no understanding of how to observe some of the commandments. Also, if you take a strict reading of the torah(first 5) text you can?t find the doctrine of the resurrection?. Which by the way, the Sadducees did not except. So, in my mind there must be more, that helps us understand the ten words, delivered to Moses. I think many of our questions will not be answered till ?YHVH returns? as Dr. Tabor stated the other day in a post. But, instead of trying to packaged it in a neat little package, we should be humble and teachable with a meek spirit to learn and follow truth as we find it and come to understand it. The children of Israel told Moses at Sinai. We will do it and we will hear it. What does that mean to me? I will do today what I know today the best I can do, today! I will hear(learn) some more and apply it and tomorrow I will do the best I can today! I enjoy the dialogue? every post? ?The Young and the Arrested?, shows exactly how God is at work in each of our life?s to bring us to were we need to be just at the time we need to be there. Shalom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/bc83e17a/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Mon Dec 3 09:54:58 2007 From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:54:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Message-ID: <8CA03DBFDCF7B0E-6D8-247C@mblk-d43.sysops.aol.com> I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah".? Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor.? I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about.? The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/29f2e412/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 09:58:59 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 09:58:59 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah In-Reply-To: <8CA03DBFDCF7B0E-6D8-247C@mblk-d43.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Where is the Highland Observatory? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/292aa6b1/attachment.html From tbear001 at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 3 10:16:46 2007 From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net (roy landry) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:16:46 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishmash & Talmud In-Reply-To: <445888387-1196645922-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1790930186-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <445888387-1196645922-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1790930186-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <006901c835c7$e6f35590$6402a8c0@roysoffice> Pat and John, I just want to say thanks for your insight. I feel like such a newbie. I don't know enough to have an opinion on the Mishnah. I quess that is part of this journey. -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:38 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud Hey Pat, Personally, I fully agree with your assessment of Mishnah and Torah. Just a point of debate though. I am one who believes that the process of Torah being written on our hearts was begun with Yeshua. The issue of divinity aside I believe that as Messiah, his example is indeed the "light" that came into the world. While it has taken much of my life iI have to say that this light is the reason I am studying Torah today. So my point is that while I certainly look forward to the completion of God's promise, I am convinced it has already begun. What say you? Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: patricia robbins Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:23:10 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud Hi Roy, ? I don't believe it nullifies, replaces or should in any way be placed above G-d's Word.? I truly believe it?of utmost importance to?diligently study?T'NaKh, pray and?actively listen for His guidance in all things. ? If we turn to?something as?the final word?for?every interpretation, can?that not become an idol to us?? Can?it not?divert our eyes from studying His Word and looking to Him to direct us?? Should we not be looking forward to the day when Torah is written on our hearts (Jer:31:33, or 31:32 in the Hebrew Bible) ? ? I think I look at?the words of Mishnah and Talmud?as if I were reading any wise, Torah-observant person's opinion on specific matters.? Their opinion may be venerated and wonderful, but I still weigh it in light of God's Word because He said that His Word is not too hard for us to understand: ? "...if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the L-RD thy G-d, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are WRITTEN (as opposed to orally spoken) in this book of the Tora, and if thou turn to the L-RD thy G-d with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.????????? For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.? It is not in heaven, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?? Nor is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?? But the word is very near to thee, in thy mouth, and IN THY HEART, that thou mayst do it."???? Deuteronomy 30: 10-14 ? There are even?some interpretations in Mishnah and Talmud?that I feel negate G-d's Word.? ? >From what I have been able to glean from my own Rabbi, and subsequently from others, in the understanding of such "rulings,"?it is considered that those who sit in Moses' seat have been given authority even to?change what God has said.? I just have not been able to buy this.? Perhaps I have misunderstood what they are saying, but I don't think so. ? Mishnah and Talmud are very good subjects for dialogue.? I will be most interested in hearing other opinions.? I hold some rather strong ones on this subject, but I want to correct any stakes I may have put into the ground that should be moved!? ? Endeavoring to remain teachable, ? Pat ? ? ---------------- From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:59:10 -0600 I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud.? I suppose I need to start. ?I have some questions you all may be able to help me with.? I understand it is the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form?? I have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah?? Do you think the Talmud is really God?s words or tradition? ? Thanks ?Roy ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole ? Rick,? ? Good question. - ?What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole?? Or was everyone bitten? ? ?In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far.? However, when looking at the text in Num 21, we see were ?The people? complained and God sent the serpent?s. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, ?and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live?. ? Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, ?and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 ? The word ? man - ?in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and then not everyone only some.? If we go back to the first of the chapter we see ?the people spoke against God, and against Moses?. ?I would think that only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the men in the group. ????Rashi in the Chumash says, ?when the people spoke against God and Moses, ?they placed the servant on a par with his Master? ?? Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as Christians and the? church have done with Jesus? ???The Chumash goes on to say ? our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?! But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a) ? The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu.? ? ?Jewish Encyclop. ? Shalom ? ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... ? What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole?? Or was everyone bitten? Rick ? ? ? _______________________________________________ From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 10:56:57 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 11:56:57 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishmash & Talmud In-Reply-To: <006901c835c7$e6f35590$6402a8c0@roysoffice> References: <445888387-1196645922-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1790930186-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <006901c835c7$e6f35590$6402a8c0@roysoffice> Message-ID: Walking along this Ancient Path together, we will all find new things constantly! The One leading our way will make sure of that! Personally, I'm just so thrilled with all my new walking companions on this Journey Home ~ Pat> From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishmash & Talmud> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:16:46 -0600> > Pat and John,> > I just want to say thanks for your insight. I feel like such a newbie. I> don't know enough to have an opinion on the Mishnah. I quess that is part> of this journey.> > -----Original Message-----> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of> carlson_john at bellsouth.net> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:38 PM> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud> > Hey Pat,> > Personally, I fully agree with your assessment of Mishnah and Torah.> > Just a point of debate though. I am one who believes that the process of> Torah being written on our hearts was begun with Yeshua. The issue of> divinity aside I believe that as Messiah, his example is indeed the "light"> that came into the world. While it has taken much of my life iI have to say> that this light is the reason I am studying Torah today. So my point is> that while I certainly look forward to the completion of God's promise, I am> convinced it has already begun.> > What say you?> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T> > -----Original Message-----> From: patricia robbins > > Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:23:10 > To:> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole /Mishnah & Talmud> > > Hi Roy,> > I don't believe it nullifies, replaces or should in any way be placed above> G-d's Word. I truly believe it of utmost importance to diligently> study T'NaKh, pray and actively listen for His guidance in all things.> > If we turn to something as the final word for every interpretation,> can that not become an idol to us? Can it not divert our eyes from studying> His Word and looking to Him to direct us? Should we not be looking forward> to the day when Torah is written on our hearts (Jer:31:33, or 31:32 in the> Hebrew Bible) ?> > I think I look at the words of Mishnah and Talmud as if I were reading any> wise, Torah-observant person's opinion on specific matters. Their opinion> may be venerated and wonderful, but I still weigh it in light of God's Word> because He said that His Word is not too hard for us to understand:> > "...if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the L-RD thy G-d, to keep his> commandments and his statutes which are WRITTEN (as opposed to orally> spoken) in this book of the Tora, and if thou turn to the L-RD thy G-d with> all thy heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I> command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. > It is not in heaven, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go up for us to> heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? Nor is it> beyond the sea, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go over the sea for us,> and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very> near to thee, in thy mouth, and IN THY HEART, that thou mayst do it." > Deuteronomy 30: 10-14> > There are even some interpretations in Mishnah and Talmud that I feel> negate G-d's Word. > > >From what I have been able to glean from my own Rabbi, and subsequently> from others, in the understanding of such "rulings," it is considered that> those who sit in Moses' seat have been given authority even to change what> God has said. I just have not been able to buy this. Perhaps I have> misunderstood what they are saying, but I don't think so.> > Mishnah and Talmud are very good subjects for dialogue. I will be most> interested in hearing other opinions. I hold some rather strong ones on> this subject, but I want to correct any stakes I may have put into the> ground that should be moved! > > Endeavoring to remain teachable,> > Pat> > > > > > ----------------> From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:59:10 -0600> > > > I have never read the Mishnah or the Talmud. I suppose I need to start. I> have some questions you all may be able to help me with. I understand it is> the spoken words of God to Moses so when was it put into written form? I> have heard that some believe it replaces or nullifies the written Torah? Do> you think the Talmud is really God?s words or tradition? > > Thanks Roy > > > > ----------------> > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: [Dialogue] Serpent on a Pole > > Rick, > > Good question. - What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the> serpent on the pole? Or was everyone bitten? > > In my understanding, and I could be incorrect, regardless of a midrash or a> Christian type, they all will break down if pressed to far. However, when> looking at the text in Num 21, we see were ?The people? complained and God> sent the serpent?s. then we see in vs. 8, were God said, ?and it shall come> to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live?. > > Then we see in vs. 9 where the text said, ?and it came to pass,1961 that> if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413> the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 > > The word ? man - in the text seems to tell us that only men were bitten and> then not everyone only some. If we go back to the first of the chapter we> see ?the people spoke against God, and against Moses?. I would think that> only those who spoke against God and Moses were bitten, and then only the> men in the group. Rashi in the Chumash says, when the people spoke> against God and Moses, ?they placed the servant on a par with his> Master??? Does this mean they elevated Moses to a level equal with God, as> Christians and the church have done with Jesus? The Chumash goes on to> say ? our Rabbis said: But could the copper serpent cause death or life?!> But, the explanation is that when the Israelites in gazing at the serpent> looked up on high and subjected their hearts to their Father in heaven, they> were healed, but if they did not do this then they pined away. (R. Hash.29a)> > > The Mishnah does not take literally the words "Every one who was bitten by a> serpent would look at the serpent and live," but interprets them> symbolically. The people should look up to the God of heaven, for it is not> the serpent that either brings to life or puts to death, but it is God> (MishnahR. H. 29a). In the course of time, however, the people lost sight of> the symbolical meaning and regarded the serpent itself as the seat of the> healing power, and they made it an object of worship, so that Hezekiah found> it necessary to destroy it (II Kings xviii. 4; see also Ber. 10a).K. I. Hu. > ? Jewish Encyclop. > > Shalom > > > > > ----------------> > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 PM> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... > > > > What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the> pole? Or was everyone bitten?> > > Rick > > > > > _______________________________________________> > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/eae18429/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 11:12:03 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:12:03 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Message-ID: ...........turning chartreuse with envy!!!!!!! Wish I could go with yall!!! Enjoy ~ Pat To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:54:58 -0500From: rndavar at aol.comSubject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn.This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/cd23740a/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Mon Dec 3 12:36:02 2007 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:36:02 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: <69668569-CFB8-4E7C-87DE-B827FE617BD4@alaska.com> References: <009d01c8354e$70f62580$653c66c9@bettygivin> <69668569-CFB8-4E7C-87DE-B827FE617BD4@alaska.com> Message-ID: I guess I liken a Gentile to be, as it says in Acts-------"Those who have turned to God from serving Idols". I was raised Catholic. They (Catholics) have been removing there statues from the Churches now. They leave the man on the cross though. Dick L. Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Hi Betty and Dick, It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it seems like they are defining it differently. Like when Dick said: "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to be. Confused, Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non-Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of course, all can speak for themselves. Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many horrific things have been done to them in the name of Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention that because it just came up. Shalom and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 dictionary definitions? 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2: heathen, pagan 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hey Dick, Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the Christians any longer. My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the words of encouragement, Dick. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G-d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: Denny, I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) search for Me with all your heart. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/1fd3c0b8/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Mon Dec 3 12:37:35 2007 From: rndavar at aol.com (=?utf-8?B?Um9zcyBOaWNob2xz?=) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 18:37:35 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1703237454-1196707238-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1575016976-@bxe133.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> The web site for more info on the observatory and professor Schaefer is www.bro.lsu.edu I just called them and am really looking forward to this lecture. The web site is not really that great, so find the link on the left for calendar of events and once on the calendar page click on the link for "The moon and the Torah". From there you can go to Schaefer's site. The man I spoke with said that members from the other 2 synagogues in BR will be there too. It should be great. Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: patricia robbins Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:12:03 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah ...........turning chartreuse with envy!!!!!!!? Wish I could go with yall!!!? Enjoy ~ Pat ---------------- To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:54:58 -0500 From: rndavar at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah".? Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor.? I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about.? The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ---------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ From info at poweredbyhadavar.com Mon Dec 3 12:58:13 2007 From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:58:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Message-ID: <542725.6849.qm@web1010.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I will be there, got the yard pass. :-) Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: Ross Nichols To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 12:37:35 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah The web site for more info on the observatory and professor Schaefer is www.bro.lsu.edu I just called them and am really looking forward to this lecture. The web site is not really that great, so find the link on the left for calendar of events and once on the calendar page click on the link for "The moon and the Torah". From there you can go to Schaefer's site. The man I spoke with said that members from the other 2 synagogues in BR will be there too. It should be great. Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: patricia robbins Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:12:03 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah ...........turning chartreuse with envy!!!!!!! Wish I could go with yall!!! Enjoy ~ Pat ---------------- To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:54:58 -0500 From: rndavar at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ---------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 13:00:19 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:00:19 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Catholics are removing the statues? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 12:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread I guess I liken a Gentile to be, as it says in Acts-------"Those who have turned to God from serving Idols". I was raised Catholic. They (Catholics) have been removing there statues from the Churches now. They leave the man on the cross though. Dick L. Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Hi Betty and Dick, It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it seems like they are defining it differently. Like when Dick said: "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to be. Confused, Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non-Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of course, all can speak for themselves. Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many horrific things have been done to them in the name of Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention that because it just came up. Shalom and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva ________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 dictionary definitions? 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2: heathen , pagan 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hey Dick, Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the Christians any longer. My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the words of encouragement, Dick. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G-d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: Denny, I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) search for Me with all your heart. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/070b8bc5/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 13:04:49 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:04:49 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah In-Reply-To: <542725.6849.qm@web1010.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Most excellent! John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" ????????????????????? Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 12:58 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I will be there, got the yard pass. :-) Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: Ross Nichols To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 12:37:35 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah The web site for more info on the observatory and professor Schaefer is www.bro.lsu.edu I just called them and am really looking forward to this lecture. The web site is not really that great, so find the link on the left for calendar of events and once on the calendar page click on the link for "The moon and the Torah". From there you can go to Schaefer's site. The man I spoke with said that members from the other 2 synagogues in BR will be there too. It should be great. Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: patricia robbins Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:12:03 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah ...........turning chartreuse with envy!!!!!!! Wish I could go with yall!!! Enjoy ~ Pat ---------------- To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:54:58 -0500 From: rndavar at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ---------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From kim.alvarado at charter.net Mon Dec 3 13:04:53 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 11:04:53 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah In-Reply-To: <1703237454-1196707238-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1575016976-@bxe133.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <20071203140453.8KBDP.1296.root@fepweb09> I too am jealous. I would love to come. Unfortunately, I have to work as soon as Sabbath is over Saturday. Have a great time! ---- Ross Nichols wrote: ============= The web site for more info on the observatory and professor Schaefer is www.bro.lsu.edu I just called them and am really looking forward to this lecture. The web site is not really that great, so find the link on the left for calendar of events and once on the calendar page click on the link for "The moon and the Torah". From there you can go to Schaefer's site. The man I spoke with said that members from the other 2 synagogues in BR will be there too. It should be great. Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: patricia robbins Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:12:03 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah ...........turning chartreuse with envy!!!!!!! Wish I could go with yall!!! Enjoy ~ Pat ---------------- To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:54:58 -0500 From: rndavar at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ---------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Dec 3 14:01:16 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:01:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) Message-ID: <8CA03FE65CB3C1F-6D0-1553@WEBMAIL-DC11.sysops.aol.com> The late 80's - early 90's are a bit of a blur to me.? You know, like those old black & white movies from the 1940's, which to show the passing of time, focus on the calendar on the kitchen wall, with the pages flying by.? That's the way it felt....job changes, unemployment, another graduate degree (an MPA in Health Policy, with a specialization in Healthcare Finance from New York University - because the country was moving to National Healthcare, remember that?!?) and the kids starting to grow up, change of careers into Health Care?and finances to juggle.? I had hoped the new degree would open all new job prospects, to make more money, to finally get to Israel (and to give me some marketable skills for a job in Israel). Aliyah seemed to be one of those dreams, that would never leave the realm of fantasy.? I was aimless Jewishly, knowing that I belonged in Israel, but was still sitting in NYC,?like the famed poetry of R' Yehuda?HaLevy, " My heart is in the East, but I am in the?West.."? ?The Oslo Accords shocked everyone, and I was a lone voice of warning to my friends.? I was actually at a party (celebrating my friend's receiving a PhD, and I was ridiculed by those at my table for my views on Israel.? They were actually taunting me in front of the other ten people at our table.? THEY saw a 'New Middle East," and I saw us supporting those that slaughtered Jews...Even if Jewish Law allowed the surrender of Land (and it does NOT), I argued that the scum Arafat would never change, and it would cost us dearly in terms of Jewish blood.? Unfortunately, I was correct...and no, I didn't punch those guys out, but I should have! ? My debt from this other Graduate Degree was alarming (NYU was costing about $275/credit then, and this was a 60 credit program..)...somehow it was all going to pay off, and all work out in the end, right?? It HAD to....But I was working as hard as I could, trying to earn the periodic bonus, for the extra $1,200 or so.???However, it was more then just paying bills, it? was as much?wanting to find a purpose to my life.??I'm a 'movement' kind of guy, I NEED a cause....but what cause??? The debts?? They'd all be resolved by the 'next' job which would pay more, always the 'next job..'? I was doing all I could, and paying bills is certainly not a 'cause.'? ? But, then I had a bit of an epiphany, in 1993....I was reading a terrible book, called Zealots for Zion which was written to slander the 'wackos' (as he saw it) in Israel who were setting up "settlements" and planning to take back the Temple Mount, and rebuild the Holy Temple.? The Temple....there were actually people wanting to work on the Temple, NOW?!?!? WOW......I was blown away!!!?? I never heard this talked about in shul.....ever!?? Never had I heard a Rabbi (in America) speak about this.? The book mentioned a guy named Monroe in Florida who was funding these groups in Israel.? So what did I do?? I called him up!!? After thinking at first that I was another freak, he began to realize I was serious, and might be able to help the movement.? He was elderly and ill, and seemed to have tons of contacts, and I was full of energy and ideas.? He was a very difficult man to deal with, very vulgar (even by Bronx standards), and proud of the fact that he went out of his way to eat non-kosher food, and despised Rabbis.? And THIS was the guy who was funding the Temple Mount groups?? I just couldn't understand it....and more then 10 years later, STILL can't!? His slogan was, "A Minyan on the Mount."? A 'minyan' is a prayer quorum of Jewish men. It dawned on me after he died, that had we been able to get Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount, as he wanted, he didn't even know how to pray in Hebrew, and was totally unfamiliar with anything related to Jewish prayer.? He had given Rav Kahane money when he was in the Kenneset, but by the time I had met him, he had given most of his money away.? ? Monroe put me in touch with Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute (who happened to be in the U.S. at the time), who I consider a friend and teacher till this day.? However, please know that although I mentioned him by name - nothing I say, can be construed as representing him, in any way, shape or form, okay?? ?(there's a LONGGGG? story behind THAT disclaimer).?Monroe was in touch with most of the 'players' in the Temple Mount movement, and I soon got to meet them, when he sent me to Israel in the summer of 1994 (I had been through?a period of unemployment, and had just started a job, telling them that I had this 'vacation' in Israel all planned out already).?I met extensively with quite a number of some of the most dynamic Jews of our generation, the REAL Jewish leaders of today.? Through Monroe, I was also put in touch with Dell Griffin, who first exposed to the whole Tribes migration theory, and began encouraging me to read the New Testament, in order to understand 'where' all my new friends were coming from, so to speak.? That was some of the best advice I've ever gotten....although it's gotten me into too many arguments - both from Jews AND from Christians (and everyone in between!) ? I began to enter the unique world of those in Israel who are dedicated to restoring the Har HaBayit, the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple.? It was right around this time that I somehow, (can't remember how) stumbled across the UIWU - the United Israel World Union; an organization dedicated to the Hebrew prophets and the return of the Ten Lost Tribes.? Finally, I had found my purpose!!!? These were quickly adopted by me as my twin goals for my life, I jumped in, headfirst.? Other then my daughters and my job, I LIVED to work for the Temple and/or the Tribes.? That's all I wanted to talk about, all I wanted to read about, all I wanted to focus on.? I'm not TOO much of a 'movement' person, huh?? Remember to check out, Eric Hoffer's The True Believer - it fits me perfectly!? ? I don't know how I heard about that first UIWU meeting (then held in NYC, where David Horowitz lived) that I went to, but as soon as I went I was hooked!? At the time, James and Dennis Jones were producing a fabulous newsletter, "Jezreel's Call" - when I read it, I just wondered where these people had been all my life!? I soon met James, Dennis, J David Davis, Becky?& Ralph , Timothy Thompson, Betty & Roger and others (PLEASE forgive me if I've left out any names...).? I recall listening to Timothy tell his personal story, and had to keep biting my lip to stop myself from cryinig!? I was so emotionally moved by these individuals, who were giving up SO MUCH, to study Torah.? It made me feel ashamed that I wasn't learning even more then I was, with all the resources available to me.? I read and reread every publication that James or Dennis could give me - "Jezrell's Call" as well as "Restoring Abrahamic Faith," and the UIWU Bulliten's. ? I was so caught up with this movement, and with these people, who I was so drawn to, far more then my friends who I went to shul with.? Everything they said and did seemed imbued with a level of spirituality and caring that overwhelmed me.? I felt a sense of kinship, unlike I'd ever felt, and I had been in quite a few Jewish organizations and movements up to that point.? I remember calling Dennis Jones almost every Saturday night, and talking endlessly.? I wanted to do more, read more, speak to more people, make 'this' happen, right away, NOW!?? And what was 'this?'? It was the restoration of the Temple Mount, the rebuilding of the Temple itself, and the reunification of the Tribes (that's all I wanted, not too much to ask, right?? LOL) In rapid succession, I attended other UIWU meetings met more and more people affiliated with this 'movement,' which really wasn't a movement,?and went to a Bnai Noah Conference in Athens, TN, run by J David Davis @ Emmanuel.? It was an amazing experience for me - here were people who weren't Jewish, but felt the SAME way I did about the Hebrew prophets, the SAME way I did about Israel, the SAME way about the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Temple!!!? I couldn't process it all!!? I met Ross, Mike Dallen, and a host of others, all who deeply touched my soul.? I soon learned that there were many, many types of people that attended these events, all with various views of Jesus/Yeshua.? And it was only until I had read the New Testament, and had countless talks with Dell and Ross, that I began to understand the world that these wonderful men and women were coming from.? Which was as different to me, as mine was to them..... I missed it when I wasn't with them, and yearned for the kind of "fellowship" (a term never heard in my circles) that I felt with them.? I couldn't understand (and I don't think they could either!) howand why I was so drawn to them.? Many times, for various personal reasons I have tried to 'walk away,' so to speak, but always have come back.? These are my friends...these are the people I relate to.? No, I have no Christian background at all, and no, I have never, ever had a relationship with Jesus...but I still, strangely enough, 'get' where they're coming from.? But I didn't know what I could to to help them in their quest, on the so-called, "Ancient Paths."? I was afraid to speak up too much, for fear that people would think that I was leading them to Judaism, which I wasn't.? For those who believed themselves to be from the Lost Tribes, from Ephraim, then I wanted to make sure that there was at least one person from Judah there to greet them - me.? Maybe THAT was what my role was supposed to be. I tried to create excitement and interest in the Jewish community about the Temple Mount issues, and was met with total disinterest.? The prevailing feeling was, when the Messianic Era gets here, all of this will be explained, and we'll figure it all out then......NOT what I wanted to hear.? I was getting more of a 'fringe' reputation in the Jewish community THEN, then when I was the 'militant Kahanist." My girls were the light of my life, it was wonderful to talk with them, particularly when they learned about the weekly Parsha (Torah reading).? I remember trying to get young Kyra to tell me about Yaakov and Esav (Esau), and tricking their father.? She remembered Yaakov's name, but seemed stuck on the other one.? Then she remembered!? "Abba, you know, the hairy boy!"? It seemed that she had done a project in school that had Esav have 'furry' arms.? I still tease her about that...the hairy boy.....LOL Ayala was a gem, a true young lady, with wonderful Torah values, I was so proud of them, and how they acted, particularly to my mom. They would call her every day upon arriving home from school, and would tell her all about their day, then she would tell them to was their faces, have a snack (which SHE decided), and MADE them do their homework!? She wanted it done before Abba (Daddy - me) got home.? I got really good at braiding Ayala's hair when she was young, but I never did learn that French Braid thing....maybe for my grandchildren, that HaShem should bless me with.... Monroe sent me to Israel again in 1996 to try to bring unity to the various Temple Mount groups - it was a failure....He didn't have the money to back up what he was trying to do, and the Temple Mount cause was still considered fringe.? I spent a lot to time with Yehuda Etzion, who had been one of the heads of what was called, "The Jewish Underground," the group that among other things, was planning to remove the abomination from the Temple Mount.? My Yehuda stories will have to be in the next chapter.... So, while waiting for the next UIWU 'fix,' I tried to learn Torah, and actually tried to perfect my Hebrew.? Ayala and Kyra were the driving forces for me to try to get to Israel.? I used to explain (lecture, is more like it, I'm sure) to them the importance of living in Israel, and how the mitzvot (commandments) are designed to be done in Israel.? How we are a religio-nation (Rav Kahane taught me that..), designed to live a certain way, in a certain land - Israel.? With kids, you never know when you're reaching them, though. My mom was the one who was my backup when the kids needed a babysitter, and the regular sitter was available.? Mom spent many Shabbatot (plural of Shabbat, of course..) with us, and cared for the girls while I cooked and prepared for holidays (particularly Pesah - Passover).? She was even supportive of my Aliyah dreams, even though it would break her heart if I had left.? The girls and I used to talk about how great it would be to get a house in Israel, large enough for grandma, so she's have her own entrance, and we could be all together in Israel!!? What a wonderful vision.? She was the one who I could call at the end of a tough day, she was my personal 'cheerleader,' she was ALWAYS on my side.? I had no idea how I could do this all without her love and support.? Then my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer..... ?????? to be continued.... ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/38a6142f/attachment.html From dennyj at mac.com Mon Dec 3 14:02:02 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:02:02 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah In-Reply-To: <542725.6849.qm@web1010.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <542725.6849.qm@web1010.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <66C920A1-0116-1000-8454-5A33E21A15B0-Webmail-10024@mac.com> Hey, count me in. I might be a little late. ;-) Well,...maybe I can watch the moon from up here in Minnesota. I love moon and star gazing. Years ago I built my own telescope...ground my own mirror etc. Astronomy has been one of my hobbies. The telescope I built was a 6" newtonian reflector. It took me about 6 months. The mirror grinding process is a painstakingly slow one. You have to take your time and do it right or else you get poor images. I would highly recommend the experience. Very educational. Now when I look at the moon, it means something totally different. Wish I could attend. Shalom and have an enjoyable time. Denny Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play. On Monday, December 03, 2007, at 12:59PM, "Rick Gozhanskij" wrote: >I will be there, got the yard pass. :-) > >Rick > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Ross Nichols >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 12:37:35 PM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah > > >The web site for more info on the observatory and professor Schaefer is > www.bro.lsu.edu > >I just called them and am really looking forward to this lecture. The > web site is not really that great, so find the link on the left for > calendar of events and once on the calendar page click on the link for "The > moon and the Torah". From there you can go to Schaefer's site. > >The man I spoke with said that members from the other 2 synagogues in > BR will be there too. > >It should be great. Shalom, Ross >Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > >-----Original Message----- >From: patricia robbins > >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:12:03 >To: >Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah > > >...........turning chartreuse with envy!!!!!!! Wish I could go with > yall!!! Enjoy ~ Pat > >---------------- > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:54:58 -0500 >From: rndavar at aol.com >Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah > > >I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this > morning:) > >My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local > newspaper last night. > >On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a > free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will > be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like > my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my > oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am > excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. > >This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested > in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part > in Torah faith. > >Shalom, Ross > >---------------- > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail > > ! > _______________________________________________ > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > From WCHATTE at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 14:06:18 2007 From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:06:18 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah In-Reply-To: <66C920A1-0116-1000-8454-5A33E21A15B0-Webmail-10024@mac.com> Message-ID: another 'tinker' in the midst, I see... I am so looking forward to the new earth, where I will have time to whittle out all my little do dads... -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 2:02 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Hey, count me in. I might be a little late. ;-) Well,...maybe I can watch the moon from up here in Minnesota. I love moon and star gazing. Years ago I built my own telescope...ground my own mirror etc. Astronomy has been one of my hobbies. The telescope I built was a 6" newtonian reflector. It took me about 6 months. The mirror grinding process is a painstakingly slow one. You have to take your time and do it right or else you get poor images. I would highly recommend the experience. Very educational. Now when I look at the moon, it means something totally different. Wish I could attend. Shalom and have an enjoyable time. Denny Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play. On Monday, December 03, 2007, at 12:59PM, "Rick Gozhanskij" wrote: >I will be there, got the yard pass. :-) > >Rick > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Ross Nichols >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 12:37:35 PM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah > > >The web site for more info on the observatory and professor Schaefer is >www.bro.lsu.edu > >I just called them and am really looking forward to this lecture. The >web site is not really that great, so find the link on the left for >calendar of events and once on the calendar page click on the link for >"The moon and the Torah". From there you can go to Schaefer's site. > >The man I spoke with said that members from the other 2 synagogues in >BR will be there too. > >It should be great. Shalom, Ross >Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > >-----Original Message----- >From: patricia robbins > >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:12:03 >To: >Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah > > >...........turning chartreuse with envy!!!!!!! Wish I could go with >yall!!! Enjoy ~ Pat > >---------------- > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:54:58 -0500 >From: rndavar at aol.com >Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah > > >I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this > morning:) > >My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local >newspaper last night. > >On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a >free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will >be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like >my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my >oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I >am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we >learn. > >This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested >in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part >in Torah faith. > >Shalom, Ross > >---------------- > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail >id=aolcmp00050000000003> > ! > _______________________________________________ > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 14:06:57 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:06:57 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) In-Reply-To: <8CA03FE65CB3C1F-6D0-1553@WEBMAIL-DC11.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hey! What happened to part 8? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 2:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) The late 80's - early 90's are a bit of a blur to me. You know, like those old black & white movies from the 1940's, which to show the passing of time, focus on the calendar on the kitchen wall, with the pages flying by. That's the way it felt....job changes, unemployment, another graduate degree (an MPA in Health Policy, with a specialization in Healthcare Finance from New York University - because the country was moving to National Healthcare, remember that?!?) and the kids starting to grow up, change of careers into Health Care and finances to juggle. I had hoped the new degree would open all new job prospects, to make more money, to finally get to Israel (and to give me some marketable skills for a job in Israel). Aliyah seemed to be one of those dreams, that would never leave the realm of fantasy. I was aimless Jewishly, knowing that I belonged in Israel, but was still sitting in NYC, like the famed poetry of R' Yehuda HaLevy, " My heart is in the East, but I am in the West.." The Oslo Accords shocked everyone, and I was a lone voice of warning to my friends. I was actually at a party (celebrating my friend's receiving a PhD, and I was ridiculed by those at my table for my views on Israel. They were actually taunting me in front of the other ten people at our table. THEY saw a 'New Middle East," and I saw us supporting those that slaughtered Jews...Even if Jewish Law allowed the surrender of Land (and it does NOT), I argued that the scum Arafat would never change, and it would cost us dearly in terms of Jewish blood. Unfortunately, I was correct...and no, I didn't punch those guys out, but I should have! My debt from this other Graduate Degree was alarming (NYU was costing about $275/credit then, and this was a 60 credit program..)...somehow it was all going to pay off, and all work out in the end, right? It HAD to....But I was working as hard as I could, trying to earn the periodic bonus, for the extra $1,200 or so. However, it was more then just paying bills, it was as much wanting to find a purpose to my life. I'm a 'movement' kind of guy, I NEED a cause....but what cause?? The debts? They'd all be resolved by the 'next' job which would pay more, always the 'next job..' I was doing all I could, and paying bills is certainly not a 'cause.' But, then I had a bit of an epiphany, in 1993....I was reading a terrible book, called Zealots for Zion which was written to slander the 'wackos' (as he saw it) in Israel who were setting up "settlements" and planning to take back the Temple Mount, and rebuild the Holy Temple. The Temple....there were actually people wanting to work on the Temple, NOW?!?! WOW......I was blown away!!! I never heard this talked about in shul.....ever! Never had I heard a Rabbi (in America) speak about this. The book mentioned a guy named Monroe in Florida who was funding these groups in Israel. So what did I do? I called him up!! After thinking at first that I was another freak, he began to realize I was serious, and might be able to help the movement. He was elderly and ill, and seemed to have tons of contacts, and I was full of energy and ideas. He was a very difficult man to deal with, very vulgar (even by Bronx standards), and proud of the fact that he went out of his way to eat non-kosher food, and despised Rabbis. And THIS was the guy who was funding the Temple Mount groups? I just couldn't understand it....and more then 10 years later, STILL can't! His slogan was, "A Minyan on the Mount." A 'minyan' is a prayer quorum of Jewish men. It dawned on me after he died, that had we been able to get Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount, as he wanted, he didn't even know how to pray in Hebrew, and was totally unfamiliar with anyt! hing related to Jewish prayer. He had given Rav Kahane money when he was in the Kenneset, but by the time I had met him, he had given most of his money away. Monroe put me in touch with Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute (who happened to be in the U.S. at the time), who I consider a friend and teacher till this day. However, please know that although I mentioned him by name - nothing I say, can be construed as representing him, in any way, shape or form, okay? (there's a LONGGGG story behind THAT disclaimer). Monroe was in touch with most of the 'players' in the Temple Mount movement, and I soon got to meet them, when he sent me to Israel in the summer of 1994 (I had been through a period of unemployment, and had just started a job, telling them that I had this 'vacation' in Israel all planned out already). I met extensively with quite a number of some of the most dynamic Jews of our generation, the REAL Jewish leaders of today. Through Monroe, I was also put in touch with Dell Griffin, who first exposed to the whole Tribes migration theory, and began encouraging me to read the New Testament, in order to understand 'where' all my new friends were coming from, so to speak. That was some of the best advice I've ever gotten....although it's gotten me into too many arguments - both from Jews AND from Christians (and everyone in between!) I began to enter the unique world of those in Israel who are dedicated to restoring the Har HaBayit, the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple. It was right around this time that I somehow, (can't remember how) stumbled across the UIWU - the United Israel World Union; an organization dedicated to the Hebrew prophets and the return of the Ten Lost Tribes. Finally, I had found my purpose!!! These were quickly adopted by me as my twin goals for my life, I jumped in, headfirst. Other then my daughters and my job, I LIVED to work for the Temple and/or the Tribes. That's all I wanted to talk about, all I wanted to read about, all I wanted to focus on. I'm not TOO much of a 'movement' person, huh? Remember to check out, Eric Hoffer's The True Believer - it fits me perfectly! I don't know how I heard about that first UIWU meeting (then held in NYC, where David Horowitz lived) that I went to, but as soon as I went I was hooked! At the time, James and Dennis Jones were producing a fabulous newsletter, "Jezreel's Call" - when I read it, I just wondered where these people had been all my life! I soon met James, Dennis, J David Davis, Becky & Ralph , Timothy Thompson, Betty & Roger and others (PLEASE forgive me if I've left out any names...). I recall listening to Timothy tell his personal story, and had to keep biting my lip to stop myself from cryinig! I was so emotionally moved by these individuals, who were giving up SO MUCH, to study Torah. It made me feel ashamed that I wasn't learning even more then I was, with all the resources available to me. I read and reread every publication that James or Dennis could give me - "Jezrell's Call" as well as "Restoring Abrahamic Fait! h," and the UIWU Bulliten's. I was so caught up with this movement, and with these people, who I was so drawn to, far more then my friends who I went to shul with. Everything they said and did seemed imbued with a level of spirituality and caring that overwhelmed me. I felt a sense of kinship, unlike I'd ever felt, and I had been in quite a few Jewish organizations and movements up to that point. I remember calling Dennis Jones almost every Saturday night, and talking endlessly. I wanted to do more, read more, speak to more people, make 'this' happen, right away, NOW! And what was 'this?' It was the restoration of the Temple Mount, the rebuilding of the Temple itself, and the reunification of the Tribes (that's all I wanted, not too much to ask, right? LOL) In rapid succession, I attended other UIWU meetings met more and more people affiliated with this 'movement,' which really wasn't a movement, and went to a Bnai Noah Conference in Athens, TN, run by J David Davis @ Emmanuel. It was an amazing experience for me - here were people who weren't Jewish, but felt the SAME way I did about the Hebrew prophets, the SAME way I did about Israel, the SAME way about the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Temple!!! I couldn't process it all!! I met Ross, Mike Dallen, and a host of others, all who deeply touched my soul. I soon learned that there were many, many types of people that attended these events, all with various views of Jesus/Yeshua. And it was only until I had read the New Testament, and had countless talks with Dell and Ross, that I began to understand the world that these wonderful men and women were coming from. Which was as different to me, as mine was to them..... I missed it when I wasn't with them, and yearned for the kind of "fellowship" (a term never heard in my circles) that I felt with them. I couldn't understand (and I don't think they could either!) howand why I was so drawn to them. Many times, for various personal reasons I have tried to 'walk away,' so to speak, but always have come back. These are my friends...these are the people I relate to. No, I have no Christian background at all, and no, I have never, ever had a relationship with Jesus...but I still, strangely enough, 'get' where they're coming from. But I didn't know what I could to to help them in their quest, on the so-called, "Ancient Paths." I was afraid to speak up too much, for fear that people would think that I was leading them to Judaism, which I wasn't. For those who believed themselves to be from the Lost Tribes, from Ephraim, then I wanted to make sure that there was at least one person from Judah there ! to greet them - me. Maybe THAT was what my role was supposed to be. I tried to create excitement and interest in the Jewish community about the Temple Mount issues, and was met with total disinterest. The prevailing feeling was, when the Messianic Era gets here, all of this will be explained, and we'll figure it all out then......NOT what I wanted to hear. I was getting more of a 'fringe' reputation in the Jewish community THEN, then when I was the 'militant Kahanist." My girls were the light of my life, it was wonderful to talk with them, particularly when they learned about the weekly Parsha (Torah reading). I remember trying to get young Kyra to tell me about Yaakov and Esav (Esau), and tricking their father. She remembered Yaakov's name, but seemed stuck on the other one. Then she remembered! "Abba, you know, the hairy boy!" It seemed that she had done a project in school that had Esav have 'furry' arms. I still tease her about that...the hairy boy.....LOL Ayala was a gem, a true young lady, with wonderful Torah values, I was so proud of them, and how they acted, particularly to my mom. They would call her every day upon arriving home from school, and would tell her all about their day, then she would tell them to was their faces, have a snack (which SHE decided), and MADE them do their homework! She wanted it done before Abba (Daddy - me) got home. I got really good at braiding Ayala's hair when she was young, but I never did learn that French Braid thing....maybe for my grandchildren, that HaShem should bless me with.... Monroe sent me to Israel again in 1996 to try to bring unity to the various Temple Mount groups - it was a failure....He didn't have the money to back up what he was trying to do, and the Temple Mount cause was still considered fringe. I spent a lot to time with Yehuda Etzion, who had been one of the heads of what was called, "The Jewish Underground," the group that among other things, was planning to remove the abomination from the Temple Mount. My Yehuda stories will have to be in the next chapter.... So, while waiting for the next UIWU 'fix,' I tried to learn Torah, and actually tried to perfect my Hebrew. Ayala and Kyra were the driving forces for me to try to get to Israel. I used to explain (lecture, is more like it, I'm sure) to them the importance of living in Israel, and how the mitzvot (commandments) are designed to be done in Israel. How we are a religio-nation (Rav Kahane taught me that..), designed to live a certain way, in a certain land - Israel. With kids, you never know when you're reaching them, though. My mom was the one who was my backup when the kids needed a babysitter, and the regular sitter was available. Mom spent many Shabbatot (plural of Shabbat, of course..) with us, and cared for the girls while I cooked and prepared for holidays (particularly Pesah - Passover). She was even supportive of my Aliyah dreams, even though it would break her heart if I had left. The girls and I used to talk about how great it would be to get a house in Israel, large enough for grandma, so she's have her own entrance, and we could be all together in Israel!! What a wonderful vision. She was the one who I could call at the end of a tough day, she was my personal 'cheerleader,' she was ALWAYS on my side. I had no idea how I could do this all without her love and support. Then my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer..... to be continued.... ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/a029d460/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 14:07:53 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:07:53 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah me too, when I will have time....... John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" ????????????????????? Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CHATTERTON, WALTER G Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 2:06 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah another 'tinker' in the midst, I see... I am so looking forward to the new earth, where I will have time to whittle out all my little do dads... -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 2:02 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Hey, count me in. I might be a little late. ;-) Well,...maybe I can watch the moon from up here in Minnesota. I love moon and star gazing. Years ago I built my own telescope...ground my own mirror etc. Astronomy has been one of my hobbies. The telescope I built was a 6" newtonian reflector. It took me about 6 months. The mirror grinding process is a painstakingly slow one. You have to take your time and do it right or else you get poor images. I would highly recommend the experience. Very educational. Now when I look at the moon, it means something totally different. Wish I could attend. Shalom and have an enjoyable time. Denny Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play. On Monday, December 03, 2007, at 12:59PM, "Rick Gozhanskij" wrote: >I will be there, got the yard pass. :-) > >Rick > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Ross Nichols >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 12:37:35 PM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah > > >The web site for more info on the observatory and professor Schaefer is >www.bro.lsu.edu > >I just called them and am really looking forward to this lecture. The >web site is not really that great, so find the link on the left for >calendar of events and once on the calendar page click on the link for >"The moon and the Torah". From there you can go to Schaefer's site. > >The man I spoke with said that members from the other 2 synagogues in >BR will be there too. > >It should be great. Shalom, Ross >Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > >-----Original Message----- >From: patricia robbins > >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:12:03 >To: >Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah > > >...........turning chartreuse with envy!!!!!!! Wish I could go with >yall!!! Enjoy ~ Pat > >---------------- > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:54:58 -0500 >From: rndavar at aol.com >Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah > > >I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this > morning:) > >My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local >newspaper last night. > >On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a >free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will >be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like >my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my >oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I >am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we >learn. > >This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested >in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part >in Torah faith. > >Shalom, Ross > >---------------- > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail >id=aolcmp00050000000003> > ! > _______________________________________________ > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Dec 3 14:20:54 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:20:54 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CA04012408EDB3-6D0-16CA@WEBMAIL-DC11.sysops.aol.com> Sighhhhhhhh....in the Bronx we never, ever learned to count.... Sorry pal, this WAS part 8, not 9.....my FIRST "senior moment," and you were all here to witness it. oh well. THAT's what I get for trying to rush this one out.? I had thought that #7 was SO bleak, and SUCH a down, that I wanted to get more stuff up?on the list. Sorry guys......12 lashes for me...... Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 3:06 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) Hey!? What happened to part 8? ? ? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" ????????????????????? Bill & Ted ? -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 2:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) ? The late 80's - early 90's are a bit of a blur to me.? You know, like those old black & white movies from the 1940's, which to show the passing of time, focus on the calendar on the kitchen wall, with the pages flying by.? That's the way it felt....job changes, unemployment, another graduate degree (an MPA in Health Policy, with a specialization in Healthcare Finance from New York University - because the country was moving to National Healthcare, remember that?!?) and the kids starting to grow up, change of careers into Health Care?and finances to juggle.? I had hoped the new degree would open all new job prospects, to make more money, to finally get to Israel (and to give me some marketable skills for a job in Israel). Aliyah seemed to be one of those dreams, that would never leave the realm of fantasy.? I was aimless Jewishly, knowing that I belonged in Israel, but was still sitting in NYC,?like the famed poetry of R' Yehuda?HaLevy, " My heart is in the East, but I am in the?West.."? ?The Oslo Accords shocked everyone, and I was a lone voice of warning to my friends.? I was actually at a party (celebrating my friend's receiving a PhD, and I was ridiculed by those at my table for my views on Israel.? They were actually taunting me in front of the other ten people at our table.? THEY saw a 'New Middle East," and I saw us supporting those that slaughtered Jews...Even if Jewish Law allowed the surrender of Land (and it does NOT), I argued that the scum Arafat would never change, and it would cost us dearly in terms of Jewish blood.? Unfortunately, I was correct...and no, I didn't punch those guys out, but I should have! ? My debt from this other Graduate Degree was alarming (NYU was costing about $275/credit then, and this was a 60 credit program..)...somehow it was all going to pay off, and all work out in the end, right?? It HAD to....But I was working as hard as I could, trying to earn the periodic bonus, for the extra $1,200 or so.???However, it was more then just paying bills, it? was as much?wanting to find a purpose to my life.??I'm a 'movement' kind of guy, I NEED a cause....but what cause??? The debts?? They'd all be resolved by the 'next' job which would pay more, always the 'next job..'? I was doing all I could, and paying bills is certainly not a 'cause.'? ? But, then I had a bit of an epiphany, in 1993....I was reading a terrible book, called Zealots for Zion which was written to slander the 'wackos' (as he saw it) in Israel who were setting up "settlements" and planning to take back the Temple Mount, and rebuild the Holy Temple.? The Temple....there were actually people wanting to work on the Temple, NOW?!?!? WOW......I was blown away!!!?? I never heard this talked about in shul.....ever!?? Never had I heard a Rabbi (in America) speak about this.? The book mentioned a guy named Monroe in Florida who was funding these groups in Israel.? So what did I do?? I called him up!!? After thinking at first that I was another freak, he began to realize I was serious, and might be able to help the movement.? He was elderly and ill, and seemed to have tons of contacts, and I was full of energy and ideas.? He was a very difficult man to deal with, very vulgar (even by Bronx standards), and proud of the fact that he went out of his way to eat non-kosher food, and despised Rabbis.? And THIS was the guy who was funding the Temple Mount groups?? I just couldn't understand it....and more then 10 years later, STILL can't!? His slogan was, "A Minyan on the Mount."? A 'minyan' is a prayer quorum of Jewish men. It dawned on me after he died, that had we been able to get Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount, as he wanted, he didn't even know how to pray in Hebrew, and was totally unfamiliar with anyt! hing related to Jewish prayer.? He had given Rav Kahane money when he was in the Kenneset, but by the time I had met him, he had given most of his money away.? ? Monroe put me in touch with Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute (who happened to be in the U.S. at the time), who I consider a friend and teacher till this day.? However, please know that although I mentioned him by name - nothing I say, can be construed as representing him, in any way, shape or form, okay?? ?(there's a LONGGGG? story behind THAT disclaimer).?Monroe was in touch with most of the 'players' in the Temple Mount movement, and I soon got to meet them, when he sent me to Israel in the summer of 1994 (I had been through?a period of unemployment, and had just started a job, telling them that I had this 'vacation' in Israel all planned out already).?I met extensively with quite a number of some of the most dynamic Jews of our generation, the REAL Jewish leaders of today.? Through Monroe, I was also put in touch with Dell Griffin, who first exposed to the whole Tribes migration theory, and began encouraging me to read the New Testament, in order to understand 'where' all my new friends were coming from, so to speak.? That was some of the best advice I've ever gotten....although it's gotten me into too many arguments - both from Jews AND from Christians (and everyone in between!) ? I began to enter the unique world of those in Israel who are dedicated to restoring the Har HaBayit, the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple.? It was right around this time that I somehow, (can't remember how) stumbled across the UIWU - the United Israel World Union; an organization dedicated to the Hebrew prophets and the return of the Ten Lost Tribes.? Finally, I had found my purpose!!!? These were quickly adopted by me as my twin goals for my life, I jumped in, headfirst.? Other then my daughters and my job, I LIVED to work for the Temple and/or the Tribes.? That's all I wanted to talk about, all I wanted to read about, all I wanted to focus on.? I'm not TOO much of a 'movement' person, huh?? Remember to check out, Eric Hoffer's The True Believer - it fits me perfectly!? ? I don't know how I heard about that first UIWU meeting (then held in NYC, where David Horowitz lived) that I went to, but as soon as I went I was hooked!? At the time, James and Dennis Jones were producing a fabulous newsletter, "Jezreel's Call" - when I read it, I just wondered where these people had been all my life!? I soon met James, Dennis, J David Davis, Becky?& Ralph , Timothy Thompson, Betty & Roger and others (PLEASE forgive me if I've left out any names...).? I recall listening to Timothy tell his personal story, and had to keep biting my lip to stop myself from cryinig!? I was so emotionally moved by these individuals, who were giving up SO MUCH, to study Torah.? It made me feel ashamed that I wasn't learning even more then I was, with all the resources available to me.? I read and reread every publication that James or Dennis could give me - "Jezrell's Call" as well as "Restoring Abrahamic Fait! h," and the UIWU Bulliten's. ? I was so caught up with this movement, and with these people, who I was so drawn to, far more then my friends who I went to shul with.? Everything they said and did seemed imbued with a level of spirituality and caring that overwhelmed me.? I felt a sense of kinship, unlike I'd ever felt, and I had been in quite a few Jewish organizations and movements up to that point.? I remember calling Dennis Jones almost every Saturday night, and talking endlessly.? I wanted to do more, read more, speak to more people, make 'this' happen, right away, NOW!?? And what was 'this?'? It was the restoration of the Temple Mount, the rebuilding of the Temple itself, and the reunification of the Tribes (that's all I wanted, not too much to ask, right?? LOL) In rapid succession, I attended other UIWU meetings met more and more people affiliated with this 'movement,' which really wasn't a movement,?and went to a Bnai Noah Conference in Athens, TN, run by J David Davis @ Emmanuel.? It was an amazing experience for me - here were people who weren't Jewish, but felt the SAME way I did about the Hebrew prophets, the SAME way I did about Israel, the SAME way about the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Temple!!!? I couldn't process it all!!? I met Ross, Mike Dallen, and a host of others, all who deeply touched my soul.? I soon learned that there were many, many types of people that attended these events, all with various views of Jesus/Yeshua.? And it was only until I had read the New Testament, and had countless talks with Dell and Ross, that I began to understand the world that these wonderful men and women were coming from.? Which was as different to me, as mine was to them..... I missed it when I wasn't with them, and yearned for the kind of "fellowship" (a term never heard in my circles) that I felt with them.? I couldn't understand (and I don't think they could either!) howand why I was so drawn to them.? Many times, for various personal reasons I have tried to 'walk away,' so to speak, but always have come back.? These are my friends...these are the people I relate to.? No, I have no Christian background at all, and no, I have never, ever had a relationship with Jesus...but I still, strangely enough, 'get' where they're coming from.? But I didn't know what I could to to help them in their quest, on the so-called, "Ancient Paths."? I was afraid to speak up too much, for fear that people would think that I was leading them to Judaism, which I wasn't.? For those who believed themselves to be from the Lost Tribes, from Ephraim, then I wanted to make sure that there was at least one person from Judah there ! to greet them - me.? Maybe THAT was what my role was supposed to be. I tried to create excitement and interest in the Jewish community about the Temple Mount issues, and was met with total disinterest.? The prevailing feeling was, when the Messianic Era gets here, all of this will be explained, and we'll figure it all out then......NOT what I wanted to hear.? I was getting more of a 'fringe' reputation in the Jewish community THEN, then when I was the 'militant Kahanist." My girls were the light of my life, it was wonderful to talk with them, particularly when they learned about the weekly Parsha (Torah reading).? I remember trying to get young Kyra to tell me about Yaakov and Esav (Esau), and tricking their father.? She remembered Yaakov's name, but seemed stuck on the other one.? Then she remembered!? "Abba, you know, the hairy boy!"? It seemed that she had done a project in school that had Esav have 'furry' arms.? I still tease her about that...the hairy boy.....LOL Ayala was a gem, a true young lady, with wonderful Torah values, I was so proud of them, and how they acted, particularly to my mom. They would call her every day upon arriving home from school, and would tell her all about their day, then she would tell them to was their faces, have a snack (which SHE decided), and MADE them do their homework!? She wanted it done before Abba (Daddy - me) got home.? I got really good at braiding Ayala's hair when she was young, but I never did learn that French Braid thing....maybe for my grandchildren, that HaShem should bless me with.... Monroe sent me to Israel again in 1996 to try to bring unity to the various Temple Mount groups - it was a failure....He didn't have the money to back up what he was trying to do, and the Temple Mount cause was still considered fringe.? I spent a lot to time with Yehuda Etzion, who had been one of the heads of what was called, "The Jewish Underground," the group that among other things, was planning to remove the abomination from the Temple Mount.? My Yehuda stories will have to be in the next chapter.... So, while waiting for the next UIWU 'fix,' I tried to learn Torah, and actually tried to perfect my Hebrew.? Ayala and Kyra were the driving forces for me to try to get to Israel.? I used to explain (lecture, is more like it, I'm sure) to them the importance of living in Israel, and how the mitzvot (commandments) are designed to be done in Israel.? How we are a religio-nation (Rav Kahane taught me that..), designed to live a certain way, in a certain land - Israel.? With kids, you never know when you're reaching them, though. My mom was the one who was my backup when the kids needed a babysitter, and the regular sitter was available.? Mom spent many Shabbatot (plural of Shabbat, of course..) with us, and cared for the girls while I cooked and prepared for holidays (particularly Pesah - Passover).? She was even supportive of my Aliyah dreams, even though it would break her heart if I had left.? The girls and I used to talk about how great it would be to get a house in Israel, large enough for grandma, so she's have her own entrance, and we could be all together in Israel!!? What a wonderful vision.? She was the one who I could call at the end of a tough day, she was my personal 'cheerleader,' she was ALWAYS on my side.? I had no idea how I could do this all without her love and support.? Then my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer..... ?????? to be continued.... ? More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/745d0ffe/attachment.html From WCHATTE at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 14:23:55 2007 From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:23:55 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) In-Reply-To: <8CA04012408EDB3-6D0-16CA@WEBMAIL-DC11.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: nope - only 8 lashes are in order... it would be 12 if you had messed that one up! -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 2:21 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) Sighhhhhhhh....in the Bronx we never, ever learned to count.... Sorry pal, this WAS part 8, not 9.....my FIRST "senior moment," and you were all here to witness it. oh well. THAT's what I get for trying to rush this one out. I had thought that #7 was SO bleak, and SUCH a down, that I wanted to get more stuff up on the list. Sorry guys......12 lashes for me...... Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 3:06 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) Hey! What happened to part 8? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 2:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) The late 80's - early 90's are a bit of a blur to me. You know, like those old black & white movies from the 1940's, which to show the passing of time, focus on the calendar on the kitchen wall, with the pages flying by. That's the way it felt....job changes, unemployment, another graduate degree (an MPA in Health Policy, with a specialization in Healthcare Finance from New York University - because the country was moving to National Healthcare, remember that?!?) and the kids starting to grow up, change of careers into Health Care and finances to juggle. I had hoped the new degree would open all new job prospects, to make more money, to finally get to Israel (and to give me some marketable skills for a job in Israel). Aliyah seemed to be one of those dreams, that would never leave the realm of fantasy. I was aimless Jewishly, knowing that I belonged in Israel, but was still sitting in NYC, like the famed poetry of R' Yehuda HaLevy, " My heart is in the East, but I am in the West.." The Oslo Accords shocked everyone, and I was a lone voice of warning to my friends. I was actually at a party (celebrating my friend's receiving a PhD, and I was ridiculed by those at my table for my views on Israel. They were actually taunting me in front of the other ten people at our table. THEY saw a 'New Middle East," and I saw us supporting those that slaughtered Jews...Even if Jewish Law allowed the surrender of Land (and it does NOT), I argued that the scum Arafat would never change, and it would cost us dearly in terms of Jewish blood. Unfortunately, I was correct...and no, I didn't punch those guys out, but I should have! My debt from this other Graduate Degree was alarming (NYU was costing about $275/credit then, and this was a 60 credit program..)...somehow it was all going to pay off, and all work out in the end, right? It HAD to....But I was working as hard as I could, trying to earn the periodic bonus, for the extra $1,200 or so. However, it was more then just paying bills, it was as much wanting to find a purpose to my life. I'm a 'movement' kind of guy, I NEED a cause....but what cause?? The debts? They'd all be resolved by the 'next' job which would pay more, always the 'next job..' I was doing all I could, and paying bills is certainly not a 'cause.' But, then I had a bit of an epiphany, in 1993....I was reading a terrible book, called Zealots for Zion which was written to slander the 'wackos' (as he saw it) in Israel who were setting up "settlements" and planning to take back the Temple Mount, and rebuild the Holy Temple. The Temple....there were actually people wanting to work on the Temple, NOW?!?! WOW......I was blown away!!! I never heard this talked about in shul.....ever! Never had I heard a Rabbi (in America) speak about this. The book mentioned a guy named Monroe in Florida who was funding these groups in Israel. So what did I do? I called him up!! After thinking at first that I was another freak, he began to realize I was serious, and might be able to help the movement. He was elderly and ill, and seemed to have tons of contacts, and I was full of energy and ideas. He was a very difficult man to deal with, very vulgar (even by Bronx standards), and proud of the fact that he went out of his way to eat non-kosher food, and despised Rabbis. And THIS was the guy who was funding the Temple Mount groups? I just couldn't understand it....and more then 10 years later, STILL can't! His slogan was, "A Minyan on the Mount." A 'minyan' is a prayer quorum of Jewish men. It dawned on me after he died, that had we been able to get Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount, as he wanted, he didn't even know how to pray in Hebrew, and was totally unfamiliar with anyt! ! hing related to Jewish prayer. He had given Rav Kahane money when he was in the Kenneset, but by the time I had met him, he had given most of his money away. Monroe put me in touch with Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute (who happened to be in the U.S. at the time), who I consider a friend and teacher till this day. However, please know that although I mentioned him by name - nothing I say, can be construed as representing him, in any way, shape or form, okay? (there's a LONGGGG story behind THAT disclaimer). Monroe was in touch with most of the 'players' in the Temple Mount movement, and I soon got to meet them, when he sent me to Israel in the summer of 1994 (I had been through a period of unemployment, and had just started a job, telling them that I had this 'vacation' in Israel all planned out already). I met extensively with quite a number of some of the most dynamic Jews of our generation, the REAL Jewish leaders of today. Through Monroe, I was also put in touch with Dell Griffin, who first exposed to the whole Tribes migration theory, and began encouraging me to read the New Testament, in order to understand 'where' all my new friends were coming from, so to speak. That was some of the best advice I've ever gotten....although it's gotten me into too many arguments - both from Jews AND from Christians (and everyone in between!) I began to enter the unique world of those in Israel who are dedicated to restoring the Har HaBayit, the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple. It was right around this time that I somehow, (can't remember how) stumbled across the UIWU - the United Israel World Union; an organization dedicated to the Hebrew prophets and the return of the Ten Lost Tribes. Finally, I had found my purpose!!! These were quickly adopted by me as my twin goals for my life, I jumped in, headfirst. Other then my daughters and my job, I LIVED to work for the Temple and/or the Tribes. That's all I wanted to talk about, all I wanted to read about, all I wanted to focus on. I'm not TOO much of a 'movement' person, huh? Remember to check out, Eric Hoffer's The True Believer - it fits me perfectly! ! I don't know how I heard about that first UIWU meeting (then held in NYC, where David Horowitz lived) that I went to, but as soon as I went I was hooked! At the time, James and Dennis Jones were producing a fabulous newsletter, "Jezreel's Call" - when I read it, I just wondered where these people had been all my life! I soon met James, Dennis, J David Davis, Becky & Ralph , Timothy Thompson, Betty & Roger and others (PLEASE forgive me if I've left out any names...). I recall listening to Timothy tell his personal story, and had to keep biting my lip to stop myself from cryinig! I was so emotionally moved by these individuals, who were giving up SO MUCH, to study Torah. It made me feel ashamed that I wasn't learning even more then I was, with all the resources available ! to me. I read and reread every publication that James or Dennis could give me - "Jezrell's Call" as well as "Restoring Abrahamic Fait! h," and the UIWU Bulliten's. I was so caught up with this movement, and with these people, who I was so drawn to, far more then my friends who I went to shul with. Everything they said and did seemed imbued with a level of spirituality and caring that overwhelmed me. I felt a sense of kinship, unlike I'd ever felt, and I had been in quite a few Jewish organizations and movements up to that point. I remember calling Dennis Jones almost every Saturday night, and talking endlessly. I wanted to do more, read more, speak to more people, make 'this' happen, right away, NOW! And what was 'this?' It was the restoration of the Temple Mount, the rebuilding of the Temple itself, and the reunification of the Tribes (that's all I wanted, not too much to ask, right? LOL) In rapid succession, I attended other UIWU meetings met more and more people affiliated with this 'movement,' which really wasn't a movement, and went to a Bnai Noah Conference in Athens, TN, run by J David Davis @ Emmanuel. It was an amazing experience for me - here were people who weren't Jewish, but felt the SAME way I did about the Hebrew prophets, the SAME way I did about Israel, the SAME way about the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Temple!!! I couldn't process it all!! I met Ross, Mike Dallen, and a host of others, all who deeply touched my soul. I soon learned that there were many, many types of people that attended these events, all with various views of Jesus/Yeshua. And it was only until I had read the New Testament, and had countless talks with Dell and Ross, that I began to understand the world that these wonderful men and women were coming from. Which was as different to me, as mine was to them..... I missed it when I wasn't with them, and yearned for the kind of "fellowship" (a term never heard in my circles) that I felt with them. I couldn't understand (and I don't think they could either!) howand why I was so drawn to them. Many times, for various personal reasons I have tried to 'walk away,' so to speak, but always have come back. These are my friends...these are the people I relate to. No, I have no Christian background at all, and no, I have never, ever had a relationship with Jesus...but I still, strangely enough, 'get' where they're coming from. But I didn't know what I could to to help them in their quest, on the so-called, "Ancient Paths." I was afraid to speak up too much, for fear that people would think that I was leading them to Judaism, which I wasn't. For those who believed themselves to be from the Lost Tribes, from Ephraim, then I wanted to make sure that ther! e was at least one person from Judah there ! to greet them - me. Maybe THAT was what my role was supposed to be. I tried to create excitement and interest in the Jewish community about the Temple Mount issues, and was met with total disinterest. The prevailing feeling was, when the Messianic Era gets here, all of this will be explained, and we'll figure it all out then......NOT what I wanted to hear. I was getting more of a 'fringe' reputation in the Jewish community THEN, then when I was the 'militant Kahanist." My girls were the light of my life, it was wonderful to talk with them, particularly when they learned about the weekly Parsha (Torah reading). I remember trying to get young Kyra to tell me about Yaakov and Esav (Esau), and tricking their father. She remembered Yaakov's name, but seemed stuck on the other one. Then she remembered! "Abba, you know, the hairy boy!" It seemed that she had done a project in school that had Esav have 'furry' arms. I still tease her about that...the hairy boy.....LOL Ayala was a gem, a true young lady, with wonderful Torah values, I was so proud of them, and how they acted, particularly to my mom. They would call her every day upon arriving home from school, and would tell her all about their day, then she would tell them to was their faces, have a snack (which SHE decided), and MADE them do their homework! She wanted it done before Abba (Daddy - me) got home. I got really good at braiding Ayala's hair when she was young, but I never did learn that French Braid thing....maybe for my grandchildren, that HaShem should bless me with.... Monroe sent me to Israel again in 1996 to try to bring unity to the various Temple Mount groups - it was a failure....He didn't have the money to back up what he was trying to do, and the Temple Mount cause was still considered fringe. I spent a lot to time with Yehuda Etzion, who had been one of the heads of what was called, "The Jewish Underground," the group that among other things, was planning to remove the abomination from the Temple Mount. My Yehuda stories will have to be in the next chapter.... So, while waiting for the next UIWU 'fix,' I tried to learn Torah, and actually tried to perfect my Hebrew. Ayala and Kyra were the driving forces for me to try to get to Israel. I used to explain (lecture, is more like it, I'm sure) to them the importance of living in Israel, and how the mitzvot (commandments) are designed to be done in Israel. How we are a religio-nation (Rav Kahane taught me that..), designed to live a certain way, in a certain land - Israel. With kids, you never know when you're reaching them, though. My mom was the one who was my backup when the kids needed a babysitter, and the regular sitter was available. Mom spent many Shabbatot (plural of Shabbat, of course..) with us, and cared for the girls while I cooked and prepared for holidays (particularly Pesah - Passover). She was even supportive of my Aliyah dreams, even though it would break her heart if I had left. The girls and I used to talk about how great it would be to get a house in Israel, large enough for grandma, so she's have her own entrance, and we could be all together in Israel!! What a wonderful vision. She was the one who I could call at the end of a tough day, she was my personal 'cheerleader,' she was ALWAYS on my side. I had no idea how I could do this all without her love and support. Then my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer..... to be continued.... ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/9427784b/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Dec 3 14:29:37 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:29:37 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - PART 8..From Despair to a Cause Message-ID: <8CA04025BAE1997-7AC-652@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> The late 80's - early 90's are a bit of a blur to me.? You know, like those old black & white movies from the 1940's, which to show the passing of time, focus on the calendar on the kitchen wall, with the pages flying by.? That's the way it felt....job changes, unemployment, another graduate degree (an MPA in Health Policy, with a specialization in Healthcare Finance from New York University - because the country was moving to National Healthcare, remember that?!?) and the kids starting to grow up, change of careers into Health Care?and finances to juggle.? I had hoped the new degree would open all new job prospects, to make more money, to finally get to Israel (and to give me some marketable skills for a job in Israel). Aliyah seemed to be one of those dreams, that would never leave the realm of fantasy.? I was aimless Jewishly, knowing that I belonged in Israel, but was still sitting in NYC,?like the famed poetry of R' Yehuda?HaLevy, " My heart is in the East, but I am in the?West.."? ?The Oslo Accords shocked everyone, and I was a lone voice of warning to my friends.? I was actually at a party (celebrating my friend's receiving a PhD, and I was ridiculed by those at my table for my views on Israel.? They were actually taunting me in front of the other ten people at our table.? THEY saw a 'New Middle East," and I saw us supporting those that slaughtered Jews...Even if Jewish Law allowed the surrender of Land (and it does NOT), I argued that the scum Arafat would never change, and it would cost us dearly in terms of Jewish blood.? Unfortunately, I was correct...and no, I didn't punch those guys out, but I should have! ? My debt from this other Graduate Degree was alarming (NYU was costing about $275/credit then, and this was a 60 credit program..)...somehow it was all going to pay off, and all work out in the end, right?? It HAD to....But I was working as hard as I could, trying to earn the periodic bonus, for the extra $1,200 or so.???However, it was more then just paying bills, it? was as much?wanting to find a purpose to my life.??I'm a 'movement' kind of guy, I NEED a cause....but what cause??? The debts?? They'd all be resolved by the 'next' job which would pay more, always the 'next job..'? I was doing all I could, and paying bills is certainly not a 'cause.'? ? But, then I had a bit of an epiphany, in 1993....I was reading a terrible book, called Zealots for Zion which was written to slander the 'wackos' (as he saw it) in Israel who were setting up "settlements" and planning to take back the Temple Mount, and rebuild the Holy Temple.? The Temple....there were actually people wanting to work on the Temple, NOW?!?!? WOW......I was blown away!!!?? I never heard this talked about in shul.....ever!?? Never had I heard a Rabbi (in America) speak about this.? The book mentioned a guy named Monroe in Florida who was funding these groups in Israel.? So what did I do?? I called him up!!? After thinking at first that I was another freak, he began to realize I was serious, and might be able to help the movement.? He was elderly and ill, and seemed to have tons of contacts, and I was full of energy and ideas.? He was a very difficult man to deal with, very vulgar (even by Bronx standards), and proud of the fact that he went out of his way to eat non-kosher food, and despised Rabbis.? And THIS was the guy who was funding the Temple Mount groups?? I just couldn't understand it....and more then 10 years later, STILL can't!? His slogan was, "A Minyan on the Mount."? A 'minyan' is a prayer quorum of Jewish men. It dawned on me after he died, that had we been able to get Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount, as he wanted, he didn't even know how to pray in Hebrew, and was totally unfamiliar with anything related to Jewish prayer.? He had given Rav Kahane money when he was in the Kenneset, but by the time I had met him, he had given most of his money away.? ? Monroe put me in touch with Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute (who happened to be in the U.S. at the time), who I consider a friend and teacher till this day.? However, please know that although I mentioned him by name - nothing I say, can be construed as representing him, in any way, shape or form, okay?? ?(there's a LONGGGG? story behind THAT disclaimer).?Monroe was in touch with most of the 'players' in the Temple Mount movement, and I soon got to meet them, when he sent me to Israel in the summer of 1994 (I had been through?a period of unemployment, and had just started a job, telling them that I had this 'vacation' in Israel all planned out already).?I met extensively with quite a number of some of the most dynamic Jews of our generation, the REAL Jewish leaders of today.? Through Monroe, I was also put in touch with Dell Griffin, who first exposed to the whole Tribes migration theory, and began encouraging me to read the New Testament, in order to understand 'where' all my new friends were coming from, so to speak.? That was some of the best advice I've ever gotten....although it's gotten me into too many arguments - both from Jews AND from Christians (and everyone in between!) ? I began to enter the unique world of those in Israel who are dedicated to restoring the Har HaBayit, the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple.? It was right around this time that I somehow, (can't remember how) stumbled across the UIWU - the United Israel World Union; an organization dedicated to the Hebrew prophets and the return of the Ten Lost Tribes.? Finally, I had found my purpose!!!? These were quickly adopted by me as my twin goals for my life, I jumped in, headfirst.? Other then my daughters and my job, I LIVED to work for the Temple and/or the Tribes.? That's all I wanted to talk about, all I wanted to read about, all I wanted to focus on.? I'm not TOO much of a 'movement' person, huh?? Remember to check out, Eric Hoffer's The True Believer - it fits me perfectly!? ? I don't know how I heard about that first UIWU meeting (then held in NYC, where David Horowitz lived) that I went to, but as soon as I went I was hooked!? At the time, James and Dennis Jones were producing a fabulous newsletter, "Jezreel's Call" - when I read it, I just wondered where these people had been all my life!? I soon met James, Dennis, J David Davis, Becky?& Ralph , Timothy Thompson, Betty & Roger and others (PLEASE forgive me if I've left out any names...).? I recall listening to Timothy tell his personal story, and had to keep biting my lip to stop myself from cryinig!? I was so emotionally moved by these individuals, who were giving up SO MUCH, to study Torah.? It made me feel ashamed that I wasn't learning even more then I was, with all the resources available to me.? I read and reread every publication that James or Dennis could give me - "Jezrell's Call" as well as "Restoring Abrahamic Faith," and the UIWU Bulliten's. ? I was so caught up with this movement, and with these people, who I was so drawn to, far more then my friends who I went to shul with.? Everything they said and did seemed imbued with a level of spirituality and caring that overwhelmed me.? I felt a sense of kinship, unlike I'd ever felt, and I had been in quite a few Jewish organizations and movements up to that point.? I remember calling Dennis Jones almost every Saturday night, and talking endlessly.? I wanted to do more, read more, speak to more people, make 'this' happen, right away, NOW!?? And what was 'this?'? It was the restoration of the Temple Mount, the rebuilding of the Temple itself, and the reunification of the Tribes (that's all I wanted, not too much to ask, right?? LOL) In rapid succession, I attended other UIWU meetings met more and more people affiliated with this 'movement,' which really wasn't a movement,?and went to a Bnai Noah Conference in Athens, TN, run by J David Davis @ Emmanuel.? It was an amazing experience for me - here were people who weren't Jewish, but felt the SAME way I did about the Hebrew prophets, the SAME way I did about Israel, the SAME way about the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Temple!!!? I couldn't process it all!!? I met Ross, Mike Dallen, and a host of others, all who deeply touched my soul.? I soon learned that there were many, many types of people that attended these events, all with various views of Jesus/Yeshua.? And it was only until I had read the New Testament, and had countless talks with Dell and Ross, that I began to understand the world that these wonderful men and women were coming from.? Which was as different to me, as mine was to them..... I missed it when I wasn't with them, and yearned for the kind of "fellowship" (a term never heard in my circles) that I felt with them.? I couldn't understand (and I don't think they could either!) howand why I was so drawn to them.? Many times, for various personal reasons I have tried to 'walk away,' so to speak, but always have come back.? These are my friends...these are the people I relate to.? No, I have no Christian background at all, and no, I have never, ever had a relationship with Jesus...but I still, strangely enough, 'get' where they're coming from.? But I didn't know what I could to to help them in their quest, on the so-called, "Ancient Paths."? I was afraid to speak up too much, for fear that people would think that I was leading them to Judaism, which I wasn't.? For those who believed themselves to be from the Lost Tribes, from Ephraim, then I wanted to make sure that there was at least one person from Judah there to greet them - me.? Maybe THAT was what my role was supposed to be. I tried to create excitement and interest in the Jewish community about the Temple Mount issues, and was met with total disinterest.? The prevailing feeling was, when the Messianic Era gets here, all of this will be explained, and we'll figure it all out then......NOT what I wanted to hear.? I was getting more of a 'fringe' reputation in the Jewish community THEN, then when I was the 'militant Kahanist." My girls were the light of my life, it was wonderful to talk with them, particularly when they learned about the weekly Parsha (Torah reading).? I remember trying to get young Kyra to tell me about Yaakov and Esav (Esau), and tricking their father.? She remembered Yaakov's name, but seemed stuck on the other one.? Then she remembered!? "Abba, you know, the hairy boy!"? It seemed that she had done a project in school that had Esav have 'furry' arms.? I still tease her about that...the hairy boy.....LOL Ayala was a gem, a true young lady, with wonderful Torah values, I was so proud of them, and how they acted, particularly to my mom. They would call her every day upon arriving home from school, and would tell her all about their day, then she would tell them to was their faces, have a snack (which SHE decided), and MADE them do their homework!? She wanted it done before Abba (Daddy - me) got home.? I got really good at braiding Ayala's hair when she was young, but I never did learn that French Braid thing....maybe for my grandchildren, that HaShem should bless me with.... Monroe sent me to Israel again in 1996 to try to bring unity to the various Temple Mount groups - it was a failure....He didn't have the money to back up what he was trying to do, and the Temple Mount cause was still considered fringe.? I spent a lot to time with Yehuda Etzion, who had been one of the heads of what was called, "The Jewish Underground," the group that among other things, was planning to remove the abomination from the Temple Mount.? My Yehuda stories will have to be in the next chapter.... So, while waiting for the next UIWU 'fix,' I tried to learn Torah, and actually tried to perfect my Hebrew.? Ayala and Kyra were the driving forces for me to try to get to Israel.? I used to explain (lecture, is more like it, I'm sure) to them the importance of living in Israel, and how the mitzvot (commandments) are designed to be done in Israel.? How we are a religio-nation (Rav Kahane taught me that..), designed to live a certain way, in a certain land - Israel.? With kids, you never know when you're reaching them, though. My mom was the one who was my backup when the kids needed a babysitter, and the regular sitter was available.? Mom spent many Shabbatot (plural of Shabbat, of course..) with us, and cared for the girls while I cooked and prepared for holidays (particularly Pesah - Passover).? She was even supportive of my Aliyah dreams, even though it would break her heart if I had left.? The girls and I used to talk about how great it would be to get a house in Israel, large enough for grandma, so she's have her own entrance, and we could be all together in Israel!!? What a wonderful vision.? She was the one who I could call at the end of a tough day, she was my personal 'cheerleader,' she was ALWAYS on my side.? I had no idea how I could do this all without her love and support.? Then my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer..... ?????? to be continued.... ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/9c11ea14/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 14:39:03 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:39:03 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) In-Reply-To: <8CA04012408EDB3-6D0-16CA@WEBMAIL-DC11.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Okay, we forgive ya. Just thought I missed a whole chapter. ;-{)} John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 2:21 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) Sighhhhhhhh....in the Bronx we never, ever learned to count.... Sorry pal, this WAS part 8, not 9.....my FIRST "senior moment," and you were all here to witness it. oh well. THAT's what I get for trying to rush this one out. I had thought that #7 was SO bleak, and SUCH a down, that I wanted to get more stuff up on the list. Sorry guys......12 lashes for me...... Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 3:06 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) Hey! What happened to part 8? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 2:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - Part 9 (From Despair to A CAUSE) The late 80's - early 90's are a bit of a blur to me. You know, like those old black & white movies from the 1940's, which to show the passing of time, focus on the calendar on the kitchen wall, with the pages flying by. That's the way it felt....job changes, unemployment, another graduate degree (an MPA in Health Policy, with a specialization in Healthcare Finance from New York University - because the country was moving to National Healthcare, remember that?!?) and the kids starting to grow up, change of careers into Health Care and finances to juggle. I had hoped the new degree would open all new job prospects, to make more money, to finally get to Israel (and to give me some marketable skills for a job in Israel). Aliyah seemed to be one of those dreams, that would never leave the realm of fantasy. I was aimless Jewishly, knowing that I belonged in Israel, but was still sitting in NYC, like the famed poetry of R' Yehuda HaLevy, " My heart is in the East, but I am in the West.." The Oslo Accords shocked everyone, and I was a lone voice of warning to my friends. I was actually at a party (celebrating my friend's receiving a PhD, and I was ridiculed by those at my table for my views on Israel. They were actually taunting me in front of the other ten people at our table. THEY saw a 'New Middle East," and I saw us supporting those that slaughtered Jews...Even if Jewish Law allowed the surrender of Land (and it does NOT), I argued that the scum Arafat would never change, and it would cost us dearly in terms of Jewish blood. Unfortunately, I was correct...and no, I didn't punch those guys out, but I should have! My debt from this other Graduate Degree was alarming (NYU was costing about $275/credit then, and this was a 60 credit program..)...somehow it was all going to pay off, and all work out in the end, right? It HAD to....But I was working as hard as I could, trying to earn the periodic bonus, for the extra $1,200 or so. However, it was more then just paying bills, it was as much wanting to find a purpose to my life. I'm a 'movement' kind of guy, I NEED a cause....but what cause?? The debts? They'd all be resolved by the 'next' job which would pay more, always the 'next job..' I was doing all I could, and paying bills is certainly not a 'cause.' But, then I had a bit of an epiphany, in 1993....I was reading a terrible book, called Zealots for Zion which was written to slander the 'wackos' (as he saw it) in Israel who were setting up "settlements" and planning to take back the Temple Mount, and rebuild the Holy Temple. The Temple....there were actually people wanting to work on the Temple, NOW?!?! WOW......I was blown away!!! I never heard this talked about in shul.....ever! Never had I heard a Rabbi (in America) speak about this. The book mentioned a guy named Monroe in Florida who was funding these groups in Israel. So what did I do? I called him up!! After thinking at first that I was another freak, he began to realize I was serious, and might be able to help the movement. He was elderly and ill, and seemed to have tons of contacts, and I was full of energy and ideas. He was a very difficult man to deal with, very vulgar (even by Bronx standards), and proud of the fact that he went out of his way to eat non-kosher food, and despised Rabbis. And THIS was the guy who was funding the Temple Mount groups? I just couldn't understand it....and more then 10 years later, STILL can't! His slogan was, "A Minyan on the Mount." A 'minyan' is a prayer quorum of Jewish men. It dawned on me after he died, that had we been able to get Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount, as he wanted, he didn't even know how to pray in Hebrew, and was totally unfamiliar with anyt! ! hing related to Jewish prayer. He had given Rav Kahane money when he was in the Kenneset, but by the time I had met him, he had given most of his money away. Monroe put me in touch with Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute (who happened to be in the U.S. at the time), who I consider a friend and teacher till this day. However, please know that although I mentioned him by name - nothing I say, can be construed as representing him, in any way, shape or form, okay? (there's a LONGGGG story behind THAT disclaimer). Monroe was in touch with most of the 'players' in the Temple Mount movement, and I soon got to meet them, when he sent me to Israel in the summer of 1994 (I had been through a period of unemployment, and had just started a job, telling them that I had this 'vacation' in Israel all planned out already). I met extensively with quite a number of some of the most dynamic Jews of our generation, the REAL Jewish leaders of today. Through Monroe, I was also put in touch with Dell Griffin, who first exposed to the whole Tribes migration theory, and began encouraging me to read the New Testament, in order to understand 'where' all my new friends were coming from, so to speak. That was some of the best advice I've ever gotten....although it's gotten me into too many arguments - both from Jews AND from Christians (and everyone in between!) I began to enter the unique world of those in Israel who are dedicated to restoring the Har HaBayit, the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple. It was right around this time that I somehow, (can't remember how) stumbled across the UIWU - the United Israel World Union; an organization dedicated to the Hebrew prophets and the return of the Ten Lost Tribes. Finally, I had found my purpose!!! These were quickly adopted by me as my twin goals for my life, I jumped in, headfirst. Other then my daughters and my job, I LIVED to work for the Temple and/or the Tribes. That's all I wanted to talk about, all I wanted to read about, all I wanted to focus on. I'm not TOO much of a 'movement' person, huh? Remember to check out, Eric Hoffer's The True Believer - it fits me perfectly! ! I don't know how I heard about that first UIWU meeting (then held in NYC, where David Horowitz lived) that I went to, but as soon as I went I was hooked! At the time, James and Dennis Jones were producing a fabulous newsletter, "Jezreel's Call" - when I read it, I just wondered where these people had been all my life! I soon met James, Dennis, J David Davis, Becky & Ralph , Timothy Thompson, Betty & Roger and others (PLEASE forgive me if I've left out any names...). I recall listening to Timothy tell his personal story, and had to keep biting my lip to stop myself from cryinig! I was so emotionally moved by these individuals, who were giving up SO MUCH, to study Torah. It made me feel ashamed that I wasn't learning even more then I was, with all the resources available ! to me. I read and reread every publication that James or Dennis could give me - "Jezrell's Call" as well as "Restoring Abrahamic Fait! h," and the UIWU Bulliten's. I was so caught up with this movement, and with these people, who I was so drawn to, far more then my friends who I went to shul with. Everything they said and did seemed imbued with a level of spirituality and caring that overwhelmed me. I felt a sense of kinship, unlike I'd ever felt, and I had been in quite a few Jewish organizations and movements up to that point. I remember calling Dennis Jones almost every Saturday night, and talking endlessly. I wanted to do more, read more, speak to more people, make 'this' happen, right away, NOW! And what was 'this?' It was the restoration of the Temple Mount, the rebuilding of the Temple itself, and the reunification of the Tribes (that's all I wanted, not too much to ask, right? LOL) In rapid succession, I attended other UIWU meetings met more and more people affiliated with this 'movement,' which really wasn't a movement, and went to a Bnai Noah Conference in Athens, TN, run by J David Davis @ Emmanuel. It was an amazing experience for me - here were people who weren't Jewish, but felt the SAME way I did about the Hebrew prophets, the SAME way I did about Israel, the SAME way about the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Temple!!! I couldn't process it all!! I met Ross, Mike Dallen, and a host of others, all who deeply touched my soul. I soon learned that there were many, many types of people that attended these events, all with various views of Jesus/Yeshua. And it was only until I had read the New Testament, and had countless talks with Dell and Ross, that I began to understand the world that these wonderful men and women were coming from. Which was as different to me, as mine was to them..... I missed it when I wasn't with them, and yearned for the kind of "fellowship" (a term never heard in my circles) that I felt with them. I couldn't understand (and I don't think they could either!) howand why I was so drawn to them. Many times, for various personal reasons I have tried to 'walk away,' so to speak, but always have come back. These are my friends...these are the people I relate to. No, I have no Christian background at all, and no, I have never, ever had a relationship with Jesus...but I still, strangely enough, 'get' where they're coming from. But I didn't know what I could to to help them in their quest, on the so-called, "Ancient Paths." I was afraid to speak up too much, for fear that people would think that I was leading them to Judaism, which I wasn't. For those who believed themselves to be from the Lost Tribes, from Ephraim, then I wanted to make sure that ther! e was at least one person from Judah there ! to greet them - me. Maybe THAT was what my role was supposed to be. I tried to create excitement and interest in the Jewish community about the Temple Mount issues, and was met with total disinterest. The prevailing feeling was, when the Messianic Era gets here, all of this will be explained, and we'll figure it all out then......NOT what I wanted to hear. I was getting more of a 'fringe' reputation in the Jewish community THEN, then when I was the 'militant Kahanist." My girls were the light of my life, it was wonderful to talk with them, particularly when they learned about the weekly Parsha (Torah reading). I remember trying to get young Kyra to tell me about Yaakov and Esav (Esau), and tricking their father. She remembered Yaakov's name, but seemed stuck on the other one. Then she remembered! "Abba, you know, the hairy boy!" It seemed that she had done a project in school that had Esav have 'furry' arms. I still tease her about that...the hairy boy.....LOL Ayala was a gem, a true young lady, with wonderful Torah values, I was so proud of them, and how they acted, particularly to my mom. They would call her every day upon arriving home from school, and would tell her all about their day, then she would tell them to was their faces, have a snack (which SHE decided), and MADE them do their homework! She wanted it done before Abba (Daddy - me) got home. I got really good at braiding Ayala's hair when she was young, but I never did learn that French Braid thing....maybe for my grandchildren, that HaShem should bless me with.... Monroe sent me to Israel again in 1996 to try to bring unity to the various Temple Mount groups - it was a failure....He didn't have the money to back up what he was trying to do, and the Temple Mount cause was still considered fringe. I spent a lot to time with Yehuda Etzion, who had been one of the heads of what was called, "The Jewish Underground," the group that among other things, was planning to remove the abomination from the Temple Mount. My Yehuda stories will have to be in the next chapter.... So, while waiting for the next UIWU 'fix,' I tried to learn Torah, and actually tried to perfect my Hebrew. Ayala and Kyra were the driving forces for me to try to get to Israel. I used to explain (lecture, is more like it, I'm sure) to them the importance of living in Israel, and how the mitzvot (commandments) are designed to be done in Israel. How we are a religio-nation (Rav Kahane taught me that..), designed to live a certain way, in a certain land - Israel. With kids, you never know when you're reaching them, though. My mom was the one who was my backup when the kids needed a babysitter, and the regular sitter was available. Mom spent many Shabbatot (plural of Shabbat, of course..) with us, and cared for the girls while I cooked and prepared for holidays (particularly Pesah - Passover). She was even supportive of my Aliyah dreams, even though it would break her heart if I had left. The girls and I used to talk about how great it would be to get a house in Israel, large enough for grandma, so she's have her own entrance, and we could be all together in Israel!! What a wonderful vision. She was the one who I could call at the end of a tough day, she was my personal 'cheerleader,' she was ALWAYS on my side. I had no idea how I could do this all without her love and support. Then my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer..... to be continued.... ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/9676c6e8/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Mon Dec 3 15:05:45 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:05:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - PART 8..From Despair to a Cause In-Reply-To: <8CA04025BAE1997-7AC-652@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <729489.54343.qm@web57111.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hanoch, I thought that I was having a "senior" moment myself..........thought that I had deleted part 8. Thank you for continuing to share all these details with us. I feel that I will already know you........ if we ever have an occasion to meet. Waiting for the next installment..........my dad had lung cancer. Shalom my friend, Tammy youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: The late 80's - early 90's are a bit of a blur to me. You know, like those old black & white movies from the 1940's, which to show the passing of time, focus on the calendar on the kitchen wall, with the pages flying by. That's the way it felt....job changes, unemployment, another graduate degree (an MPA in Health Policy, with a specialization in Healthcare Finance from New York University - because the country was moving to National Healthcare, remember that?!?) and the kids starting to grow up, change of careers into Health Care and finances to juggle. I had hoped the new degree would open all new job prospects, to make more money, to finally get to Israel (and to give me some marketable skills for a job in Israel). Aliyah seemed to be one of those dreams, that would never leave the realm of fantasy. I was aimless Jewishly, knowing that I belonged in Israel, but was still sitting in NYC, like the famed poetry of R' Yehuda HaLevy, " My heart is in the East, but I am in the West.." The Oslo Accords shocked everyone, and I was a lone voice of warning to my friends. I was actually at a party (celebrating my friend's receiving a PhD, and I was ridiculed by those at my table for my views on Israel. They were actually taunting me in front of the other ten people at our table. THEY saw a 'New Middle East," and I saw us supporting those that slaughtered Jews...Even if Jewish Law allowed the surrender of Land (and it does NOT), I argued that the scum Arafat would never change, and it would cost us dearly in terms of Jewish blood. Unfortunately, I was correct...and no, I didn't punch those guys out, but I should have! My debt from this other Graduate Degree was alarming (NYU was costing about $275/credit then, and this was a 60 credit program..)...somehow it was all going to pay off, and all work out in the end, right? It HAD to....But I was working as hard as I could, trying to earn the periodic bonus, for the extra $1,200 or so. However, it was more then just paying bills, it was as much wanting to find a purpose to my life. I'm a 'movement' kind of guy, I NEED a cause....but what cause?? The debts? They'd all be resolved by the 'next' job which would pay more, always the 'next job..' I was doing all I could, and paying bills is certainly not a 'cause.' But, then I had a bit of an epiphany, in 1993....I was reading a terrible book, called Zealots for Zion which was written to slander the 'wackos' (as he saw it) in Israel who were setting up "settlements" and planning to take back the Temple Mount, and rebuild the Holy Temple. The Temple....there were actually people wanting to work on the Temple, NOW?!?! WOW......I was blown away!!! I never heard this talked about in shul.....ever! Never had I heard a Rabbi (in America) speak about this. The book mentioned a guy named Monroe in Florida who was funding these groups in Israel. So what did I do? I called him up!! After thinking at first that I was another freak, he began to realize I was serious, and might be able to help the movement. He was elderly and ill, and seemed to have tons of contacts, and I was full of energy and ideas. He was a very difficult man to deal with, very vulgar (even by Bronx standards), and proud of the fact that he went out of his way to eat non-kosher food, and despised Rabbis. And THIS was the guy who was funding the Temple Mount groups? I just couldn't understand it....and more then 10 years later, STILL can't! His slogan was, "A Minyan on the Mount." A 'minyan' is a prayer quorum of Jewish men. It dawned on me after he died, that had we been able to get Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount, as he wanted, he didn't even know how to pray in Hebrew, and was totally unfamiliar with anything related to Jewish prayer. He had given Rav Kahane money when he was in the Kenneset, but by the time I had met him, he had given most of his money away. Monroe put me in touch with Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute (who happened to be in the U.S. at the time), who I consider a friend and teacher till this day. However, please know that although I mentioned him by name - nothing I say, can be construed as representing him, in any way, shape or form, okay? (there's a LONGGGG story behind THAT disclaimer). Monroe was in touch with most of the 'players' in the Temple Mount movement, and I soon got to meet them, when he sent me to Israel in the summer of 1994 (I had been through a period of unemployment, and had just started a job, telling them that I had this 'vacation' in Israel all planned out already). I met extensively with quite a number of some of the most dynamic Jews of our generation, the REAL Jewish leaders of today. Through Monroe, I was also put in touch with Dell Griffin, who first exposed to the whole Tribes migration theory, and began encouraging me to read the New Testament, in order to understand 'where' all my new friends were coming from, so to speak. That was some of the best advice I've ever gotten....although it's gotten me into too many arguments - both from Jews AND from Christians (and everyone in between!) I began to enter the unique world of those in Israel who are dedicated to restoring the Har HaBayit, the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple. It was right around this time that I somehow, (can't remember how) stumbled across the UIWU - the United Israel World Union; an organization dedicated to the Hebrew prophets and the return of the Ten Lost Tribes. Finally, I had found my purpose!!! These were quickly adopted by me as my twin goals for my life, I jumped in, headfirst. Other then my daughters and my job, I LIVED to work for the Temple and/or the Tribes. That's all I wanted to talk about, all I wanted to read about, all I wanted to focus on. I'm not TOO much of a 'movement' person, huh? Remember to check out, Eric Hoffer's The True Believer - it fits me perfectly! I don't know how I heard about that first UIWU meeting (then held in NYC, where David Horowitz lived) that I went to, but as soon as I went I was hooked! At the time, James and Dennis Jones were producing a fabulous newsletter, "Jezreel's Call" - when I read it, I just wondered where these people had been all my life! I soon met James, Dennis, J David Davis, Becky & Ralph , Timothy Thompson, Betty & Roger and others (PLEASE forgive me if I've left out any names...). I recall listening to Timothy tell his personal story, and had to keep biting my lip to stop myself from cryinig! I was so emotionally moved by these individuals, who were giving up SO MUCH, to study Torah. It made me feel ashamed that I wasn't learning even more then I was, with all the resources available to me. I read and reread every publication that James or Dennis could give me - "Jezrell's Call" as well as "Restoring Abrahamic Faith," and the UIWU Bulliten's. I was so caught up with this movement, and with these people, who I was so drawn to, far more then my friends who I went to shul with. Everything they said and did seemed imbued with a level of spirituality and caring that overwhelmed me. I felt a sense of kinship, unlike I'd ever felt, and I had been in quite a few Jewish organizations and movements up to that point. I remember calling Dennis Jones almost every Saturday night, and talking endlessly. I wanted to do more, read more, speak to more people, make 'this' happen, right away, NOW! And what was 'this?' It was the restoration of the Temple Mount, the rebuilding of the Temple itself, and the reunification of the Tribes (that's all I wanted, not too much to ask, right? LOL) In rapid succession, I attended other UIWU meetings met more and more people affiliated with this 'movement,' which really wasn't a movement, and went to a Bnai Noah Conference in Athens, TN, run by J David Davis @ Emmanuel. It was an amazing experience for me - here were people who weren't Jewish, but felt the SAME way I did about the Hebrew prophets, the SAME way I did about Israel, the SAME way about the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Temple!!! I couldn't process it all!! I met Ross, Mike Dallen, and a host of others, all who deeply touched my soul. I soon learned that there were many, many types of people that attended these events, all with various views of Jesus/Yeshua. And it was only until I had read the New Testament, and had countless talks with Dell and Ross, that I began to understand the world that these wonderful men and women were coming from. Which was as different to me, as mine was to them..... I missed it when I wasn't with them, and yearned for the kind of "fellowship" (a term never heard in my circles) that I felt with them. I couldn't understand (and I don't think they could either!) howand why I was so drawn to them. Many times, for various personal reasons I have tried to 'walk away,' so to speak, but always have come back. These are my friends...these are the people I relate to. No, I have no Christian background at all, and no, I have never, ever had a relationship with Jesus...but I still, strangely enough, 'get' where they're coming from. But I didn't know what I could to to help them in their quest, on the so-called, "Ancient Paths." I was afraid to speak up too much, for fear that people would think that I was leading them to Judaism, which I wasn't. For those who believed themselves to be from the Lost Tribes, from Ephraim, then I wanted to make sure that there was at least one person from Judah there to greet them - me. Maybe THAT was what my role was supposed to be. I tried to create excitement and interest in the Jewish community about the Temple Mount issues, and was met with total disinterest. The prevailing feeling was, when the Messianic Era gets here, all of this will be explained, and we'll figure it all out then......NOT what I wanted to hear. I was getting more of a 'fringe' reputation in the Jewish community THEN, then when I was the 'militant Kahanist." My girls were the light of my life, it was wonderful to talk with them, particularly when they learned about the weekly Parsha (Torah reading). I remember trying to get young Kyra to tell me about Yaakov and Esav (Esau), and tricking their father. She remembered Yaakov's name, but seemed stuck on the other one. Then she remembered! "Abba, you know, the hairy boy!" It seemed that she had done a project in school that had Esav have 'furry' arms. I still tease her about that...the hairy boy.....LOL Ayala was a gem, a true young lady, with wonderful Torah values, I was so proud of them, and how they acted, particularly to my mom. They would call her every day upon arriving home from school, and would tell her all about their day, then she would tell them to was their faces, have a snack (which SHE decided), and MADE them do their homework! She wanted it done before Abba (Daddy - me) got home. I got really good at braiding Ayala's hair when she was young, but I never did learn that French Braid thing....maybe for my grandchildren, that HaShem should bless me with.... Monroe sent me to Israel again in 1996 to try to bring unity to the various Temple Mount groups - it was a failure....He didn't have the money to back up what he was trying to do, and the Temple Mount cause was still considered fringe. I spent a lot to time with Yehuda Etzion, who had been one of the heads of what was called, "The Jewish Underground," the group that among other things, was planning to remove the abomination from the Temple Mount. My Yehuda stories will have to be in the next chapter.... So, while waiting for the next UIWU 'fix,' I tried to learn Torah, and actually tried to perfect my Hebrew. Ayala and Kyra were the driving forces for me to try to get to Israel. I used to explain (lecture, is more like it, I'm sure) to them the importance of living in Israel, and how the mitzvot (commandments) are designed to be done in Israel. How we are a religio-nation (Rav Kahane taught me that..), designed to live a certain way, in a certain land - Israel. With kids, you never know when you're reaching them, though. My mom was the one who was my backup when the kids needed a babysitter, and the regular sitter was available. Mom spent many Shabbatot (plural of Shabbat, of course..) with us, and cared for the girls while I cooked and prepared for holidays (particularly Pesah - Passover). She was even supportive of my Aliyah dreams, even though it would break her heart if I had left. The girls and I used to talk about how great it would be to get a house in Israel, large enough for grandma, so she's have her own entrance, and we could be all together in Israel!! What a wonderful vision. She was the one who I could call at the end of a tough day, she was my personal 'cheerleader,' she was ALWAYS on my side. I had no idea how I could do this all without her love and support. Then my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer..... to be continued.... --------------------------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/bf7f3c2b/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Dec 3 15:14:56 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:14:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - PART 8..From Despair to a Cause In-Reply-To: <729489.54343.qm@web57111.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA0408B02C08C3-5E0-1B5F@webmail-db14.sysops.aol.com> Hey Tammy - ?? You're more then welcome, thank you guys for ALLOWING me to share....we're finally getting to the point of how/why I got to Ross, the UIWU, Roots of Faith and this list in particular.? So much for the "short intro," huh?? :-)? As I look back on what I've written, there are a number of stories that I would love to share.? Maybe one day.... ??? I'm so sorry to hear about your dad...it's a terrible disease...may your family never again experience such sadness. ??? Your pal in the Apple (which is kind of chilly today!), ???????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tammy & Bruce Croley To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 4:05 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Saga - PART 8..From Despair to a Cause Hanoch, ?? I thought that I was having? a "senior" moment myself..........thought that I had deleted part 8.?? Thank you for continuing to share all these details with us.? I feel that I will already know you........ if we ever have an occasion to meet.? Waiting for the next installment..........my dad had lung cancer. Shalom my friend, ? Tammy youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: The late 80's - early 90's are a bit of a blur to me.? You know, like those old black & white movies from the 1940's, which to show the passing of time, focus on the calendar on the kitchen wall, with the pages flying by.? That's the way it felt....job changes, unemployment, another graduate degree (an MPA in Health Policy, with a specialization in Healthcare Finance from New York University - because the country was moving to National Healthcare, remember that?!?) and the kids starting to grow up, change of careers into Health Care?and finances to juggle.? I had hoped the new degree would open all new job prospects, to make more money, to finally get to Israel (and to give me some marketable skills for a job in Israel). Aliyah seemed to be one of those dreams, that would never leave the realm of fantasy.? I was aimless Jewishly, knowing that I belonged in Israel, but was still sitting in NYC,?like the famed poetry of R' Yehuda?HaLevy, " My heart is in the East, but I am in the?West.."? ?The Oslo Accords shocked everyone, and I was a lone voice of warning to my friends.? I was actually at a party (celebrating my friend's receiving a PhD, and I was ridiculed by those at my table for my views on Israel.? They were actually taunting me in front of the other ten people at our table.? THEY saw a 'New Middle East," and I saw us supporting those that slaughtered Jews...Even if Jewish Law allowed the surrender of Land (and it does NOT), I argued that the scum Arafat would never change, and it would cost us dearly in terms of Jewish blood.? Unfortunately, I was correct...and no, I didn't punch those guys out, but I should have! ? My debt from this other Graduate Degree was alarming (NYU was costing about $275/credit then, and this was a 60 credit program..)...somehow it was all going to pay off, and all work out in the end, right?? It HAD to....But I was working as hard as I could, trying to earn the periodic bonus, for the extra $1,200 or so.???However, it was more then just paying bills, it? was as much?wanting to find a purpose to my life.??I'm a 'movement' kind of guy, I NEED a cause....but what cause??? The debts?? They'd all be resolved by the 'next' job which would pay more, always the 'next job..'? I was doing all I could, and paying bills is certainly not a 'cause.'? ? But, then I had a bit of an epiphany, in 1993....I was reading a terrible book, called Zealots for Zion which was written to slander the 'wackos' (as he saw it) in Israel who were setting up "settlements" and planning to take back the Temple Mount, and rebuild the Holy Temple.? The Temple....there were actually people wanting to work on the Temple, NOW?!?!? WOW......I was blown away!!!?? I never heard this talked about in shul.....ever!?? Never had I heard a Rabbi (in America) speak about this.? The book mentioned a guy named Monroe in Florida who was funding these groups in Israel.? So what did I do?? I called him up!!? After thinking at first that I was another freak, he began to realize I was serious, and might be able to help the movement.? He was elderly and ill, and seemed to have tons of contacts, and I was full of energy and ideas.? He was a very difficult man to deal with, very vulgar (even by Bronx standards), and proud of the fact that he went out of his way to eat non-kosher food, and despised Rabbis.? And THIS was the guy who was funding the Temple Mount groups?? I just couldn't understand it....and more then 10 years later, STILL can't!? His slogan was, "A Minyan on the Mount."? A 'minyan' is a prayer quorum of Jewish men. It dawned on me after he died, that had we been able to get Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount, as he wanted, he didn't even know how to pray in Hebrew, and was totally unfamiliar with anything related to Jewish prayer.? He had given Rav Kahane money when he was in the Kenneset, but by the time I had met him, he had given most of his money away.? ? Monroe put me in touch with Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute (who happened to be in the U.S. at the time), who I consider a friend and teacher till this day.? However, please know that although I mentioned him by name - nothing I say, can be construed as representing him, in any way, shape or form, okay?? ?(there's a LONGGGG? story behind THAT disclaimer).?Monroe was in touch with most of the 'players' in the Temple Mount movement, and I soon got to meet them, when he sent me to Israel in the summer of 1994 (I had been through?a period of unemployment, and had just started a job, telling them that I had this 'vacation' in Israel all planned out already).?I met extensively with quite a number of some of the most dynamic Jews of our generation, the REAL Jewish leaders of today.? Through Monroe, I was also put in touch with Dell Griffin, who first exposed to the whole Tribes migration theory, and began encouraging me to read the New Testament, in order to understand 'where' all my new friends were coming from, so to speak.? That was some of the best advice I've ever gotten....although it's gotten me into too many arguments - both from Jews AND from Christians (and everyone in between!) ? I began to enter the unique world of those in Israel who are dedicated to restoring the Har HaBayit, the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple.? It was right around this time that I somehow, (can't remember how) stumbled across the UIWU - the United Israel World Union; an organization dedicated to the Hebrew prophets and the return of the Ten Lost Tribes.? Finally, I had found my purpose!!!? These were quickly adopted by me as my twin goals for my life, I jumped in, headfirst.? Other then my daughters and my job, I LIVED to work for the Temple and/or the Tribes.? That's all I wanted to talk about, all I wanted to read about, all I wanted to focus on.? I'm not TOO much of a 'movement' person, huh?? Remember to check out, Eric Hoffer's The True Believer - it fits me perfectly!? ? I don't know how I heard about that first UIWU meeting (then held in NYC, where David Horowitz lived) that I went to, but as soon as I went I was hooked!? At the time, James and Dennis Jones were producing a fabulous newsletter, "Jezreel's Call" - when I read it, I just wondered where these people had been all my life!? I soon met James, Dennis, J David Davis, Becky?& Ralph , Timothy Thompson, Betty & Roger and others (PLEASE forgive me if I've left out any names...).? I recall listening to Timothy tell his personal story, and had to keep biting my lip to stop myself from cryinig!? I was so emotionally moved by these individuals, who were giving up SO MUCH, to study Torah.? It made me feel ashamed that I wasn't learning even more then I was, with all the resources available to me.? I read and reread every publication that James or Dennis could give me - "Jezrell's Call" as well as "Restoring Abrahamic Faith," and the UIWU Bulliten's. ? I was so caught up with this movement, and with these people, who I was so drawn to, far more then my friends who I went to shul with.? Everything they said and did seemed imbued with a level of spirituality and caring that overwhelmed me.? I felt a sense of kinship, unlike I'd ever felt, and I had been in quite a few Jewish organizations and movements up to that point.? I remember calling Dennis Jones almost every Saturday night, and talking endlessly.? I wanted to do more, read more, speak to more people, make 'this' happen, right away, NOW!?? And what was 'this?'? It was the restoration of the Temple Mount, the rebuilding of the Temple itself, and the reunification of the Tribes (that's all I wanted, not too much to ask, right?? LOL) In rapid succession, I attended other UIWU meetings met more and more people affiliated with this 'movement,' which really wasn't a movement,?and went to a Bnai Noah Conference in Athens, TN, run by J David Davis @ Emmanuel.? It was an amazing experience for me - here were people who weren't Jewish, but felt the SAME way I did about the Hebrew prophets, the SAME way I did about Israel, the SAME way about the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Temple!!!? I couldn't process it all!!? I met Ross, Mike Dallen, and a host of others, all who deeply touched my soul.? I soon learned that there were many, many types of people that attended these events, all with various views of Jesus/Yeshua.? And it was only until I had read the New Testament, and had countless talks with Dell and Ross, that I began to understand the world that these wonderful men and women were coming from.? Which was as different to me, as mine was to them..... I missed it when I wasn't with them, and yearned for the kind of "fellowship" (a term never heard in my circles) that I felt with them.? I couldn't understand (and I don't think they could either!) howand why I was so drawn to them.? Many times, for various personal reasons I have tried to 'walk away,' so to speak, but always have come back.? These are my friends...these are the people I relate to.? No, I have no Christian background at all, and no, I have never, ever had a relationship with Jesus...but I still, strangely enough, 'get' where they're coming from.? But I didn't know what I could to to help them in their quest, on the so-called, "Ancient Paths."? I was afraid to speak up too much, for fear that people would think that I was leading them to Judaism, which I wasn't.? For those who believed themselves to be from the Lost Tribes, from Ephraim, then I wanted to make sure that there was at least one person from Judah there to greet them - me.? Maybe THAT was what my role was supposed to be. I tried to create excitement and interest in the Jewish community about the Temple Mount issues, and was met with total disinterest.? The prevailing feeling was, when the Messianic Era gets here, all of this will be explained, and we'll figure it all out then......NOT what I wanted to hear.? I was getting more of a 'fringe' reputation in the Jewish community THEN, then when I was the 'militant Kahanist." My girls were the light of my life, it was wonderful to talk with them, particularly when they learned about the weekly Parsha (Torah reading).? I remember trying to get young Kyra to tell me about Yaakov and Esav (Esau), and tricking their father.? She remembered Yaakov's name, but seemed stuck on the other one.? Then she remembered!? "Abba, you know, the hairy boy!"? It seemed that she had done a project in school that had Esav have 'furry' arms.? I still tease her about that...the hairy boy.....LOL Ayala was a gem, a true young lady, with wonderful Torah values, I was so proud of them, and how they acted, particularly to my mom. They would call her every day upon arriving home from school, and would tell her all about their day, then she would tell them to was their faces, have a snack (which SHE decided), and MADE them do their homework!? She wanted it done before Abba (Daddy - me) got home.? I got really good at braiding Ayala's hair when she was young, but I never did learn that French Braid thing....maybe for my grandchildren, that HaShem should bless me with.... Monroe sent me to Israel again in 1996 to try to bring unity to the various Temple Mount groups - it was a failure....He didn't have the money to back up what he was trying to do, and the Temple Mount cause was still considered fringe.? I spent a lot to time with Yehuda Etzion, who had been one of the heads of what was called, "The Jewish Underground," the group that among other things, was planning to remove the abomination from the Temple Mount.? My Yehuda stories will have to be in the next chapter.... So, while waiting for the next UIWU 'fix,' I tried to learn Torah, and actually tried to perfect my Hebrew.? Ayala and Kyra were the driving forces for me to try to get to Israel.? I used to explain (lecture, is more like it, I'm sure) to them the importance of living in Israel, and how the mitzvot (commandments) are designed to be done in Israel.? How we are a religio-nation (Rav Kahane taught me that..), designed to live a certain way, in a certain land - Israel.? With kids, you never know when you're reaching them, though. My mom was the one who was my backup when the kids needed a babysitter, and the regular sitter was available.? Mom spent many Shabbatot (plural of Shabbat, of course..) with us, and cared for the girls while I cooked and prepared for holidays (particularly Pesah - Passover).? She was even supportive of my Aliyah dreams, even though it would break her heart if I had left.? The girls and I used to talk about how great it would be to get a house in Israel, large enough for grandma, so she's have her own entrance, and we could be all together in Israel!!? What a wonderful vision.? She was the one who I could call at the end of a tough day, she was my personal 'cheerleader,' she was ALWAYS on my side.? I had no idea how I could do this all without her love and support.? Then my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer..... ?????? to be continued.... More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/b0b4161a/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Mon Dec 3 17:18:42 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:18:42 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: References: <009d01c8354e$70f62580$653c66c9@bettygivin> <69668569-CFB8-4E7C-87DE-B827FE617BD4@alaska.com> Message-ID: <8CF719CE-F6FC-4A5C-9690-6A2497AC7CCA@alaska.com> Betty and Dick, and all, I am so far behind in reading these emails, but I hope I will have time today to begin to catch up and better understand your many thoughts. Some time ago my Rabbi teacher suggested I read "The Rise of Christianity," by Friend. After Jesus or Yeshua died this author talks about several sects and some called themselves Jewish Christians and some gentile Christians. (And an aside is I think I remember Jewish followers of Jesus did not believe him to be divine and did not use the word Christ, which I think comes from a Greek word.) I don't see how "turning from idols" could be a definition since Abraham turned from idols, and so I think in Genesis gentile would have been the idol worshipers. When Jesus was alive I think the definition of gentile maybe was non-Jew. Today I think some Christians think of gentile as pagan, and other Christians think of the Christians as the gentiles. Very confusing. Wikepedia agrees with Betty wth respect to how gentile is most commonly defined for today's gentile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Gentile As in the King James Bible, from the 17th century onwards gentile was most commonly used to refer to non-Jews. This was in the context of European Christian societies with a Jewish minority. For this reason Gentile commonly meant persons brought up in the Christian faith, as opposed to the adherents of Judaism, and was not typically used to refer to non-Jews in non-Western cultures. and a minority view is as a synonym for pagan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pagan The term "pagan" is a Christian adaptation of the "gentile" of Judaism, and as such has an inherent Christian or Abrahamic bias, and pejorative connotations among Westerners,[2] comparable to heathen, and infidel, mushrik and kafir (????) in Islam. For this reason, ethnologists avoid the term "paganism," with its uncertain and varied meanings, in referring to traditional or historic faiths, preferring more precise categories such as polytheism, shamanism, pantheism, or animism. Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:36 AM, Dick L wrote: > I guess I liken a Gentile to be, as it says in Acts-------"Those > who have turned to God from serving Idols". > I was raised Catholic. They (Catholics) have been removing there > statues from the Churches now. They leave the man on the cross > though. Dick L. > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread > > Hi Betty and Dick, > It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in > biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it > seems like they are defining it differently. > Like when Dick said: > "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily > found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost > Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to > all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there > learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be > something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll > never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love--- > Dick L. > > I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be > something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love > listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes > me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert > to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to > be. Confused, > Shalom, > Bonnie > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > >> Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a >> Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non- >> Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of >> course, all can speak for themselves. >> >> >> Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the >> ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too >> much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many >> horrific things have been done to them in the name of >> Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is >> that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found >> in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So >> many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do >> we first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to >> the Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been >> that once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then >> most rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand >> that we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing >> them. >> >> >> I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. >> The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with >> Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that >> Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to >> proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would >> mention that because it just came up. >> >> >> Shalom and Blessings to all, >> >> >> Betty/Elisheva >> >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- >> bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson >> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship >> with G-d... >> >> >> Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 >> dictionary definitions? >> >> 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ >> >> Function: noun >> >> Etymology: >> >> Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens >> nation >> >> Date: >> >> 14th century >> >> 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non- >> Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew >> >> 2: heathen, pagan >> >> 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon >> >> >> On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Hey Dick, >> >> >> Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am >> content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to >> participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion >> with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles >> to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with >> things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the >> things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not >> the Christians any longer. >> >> My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the >> words of encouragement, Dick. >> >> >> Shalom, >> >> Denny >> >> >> >> On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: >> >> >>> Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' >>> s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G- >>> d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the >>> lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I >>> do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and >>> satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first >>> teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The >>> Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". >>> >>> I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the >>> Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then >>> the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I >>> am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. >>> >>> Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I >>> luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make >>> me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love >>> listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in >>> there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try >>> to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And >>> I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. >>> Love---Dick L. >>> >>> >>> >>> Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... >>> >>> >>> >>>> Thank you Glenn, >>>> >>>> >>>> I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of >>>> such a commitment. >>>> >>>> Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a >>>> program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. >>>> Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation >>>> about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to >>>> Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian >>>> State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have >>>> ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a >>>> giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim >>>> Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The >>>> more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. >>>> It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my >>>> stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the >>>> lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, >>>> Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what >>>> my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for >>>> now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues >>>> me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the >>>> subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about >>>> often. I will listen and learn. >>>> >>>> >>>> Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way >>>> around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the >>>> likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our >>>> relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. >>>> >>>> >>>> Shavua Tov >>>> >>>> >>>> Denny >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Denny, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. >>>>> I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are >>>>> meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and >>>>> beseech Him on your behalf. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank >>>>> slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as >>>>> he spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will >>>>> serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has >>>>> not been an easy thing... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but >>>>> two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you >>>>> (2) search for Me with all your heart. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, >>>>> for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that >>>>> (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and >>>>> humbled. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Glenn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> Opinions expressed are mine alone. >> >> (Unless you happen to agree.) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/d7c34e7b/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Dec 3 18:20:47 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:20:47 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] We will do it, We will hear it! In-Reply-To: <006601c835ba$0136d8e0$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <006601c835ba$0136d8e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Marvin and I go back a long, long, way and I just want to thank him for this thoughtful post, so full of the wisdom that comes with living and walking with God. James On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:37 AM, mhyde wrote: > As I read the letters of each of us, I see where God is working in > all of our life?s, It?s just a little different but still almost > the same for each of us. I noticed years ago, when reading the > Bible, looking at the stories of the characters there, that they > were struggling with earthly things just like we do, but they were > focused on God and we all know that God is focused on each of us, > his children. Abraham our father, was a friend to God - Such a > special relationship ? can we fathom what this means? One of the > things I think we fell to see as we read the text of the Torah and > Prophets is that these people were human. They struggled everyday > with earthly things?.. wife?s, husbands, relationships, jobs, > neighbor?s, children, sick children, sick animals, crops that might > not come in, shortage of food in the house, bills to be paid, old > and sick parents, dieing siblings?. What we call life. When I was > a young man ? I could run all day, work 5 men my equals into the > ground, In my minds eye, I could see myself standing with King > David, fighting and killing Philistines, taking back the land?.. > My father told the story of how I would retell the bible stories, as > a young child, I learned in Sunday school class with such vividness, > excitement and awareness, as if I was telling something I had > experienced and lived instead of a story I was told by a dear old > sainted Grandmother in Sunday school. My father is gone now, but I > bet he was so proud as we parents are wont to be, when we watch our > children, as I screamed, ran around and waved my arms as ? we parted > the Red Sea, slew goliath and hacked off his head or took the city > as the walls came down at Jericho. > > Was I just being a kid??, this thing today, something else next > week, teenage years and girls and cars?.. no time for God. God was > doing something in me at an early age, that I will not live long > enough to get over?.. If you understand what I mean. I think each > of us have a similar story or feeling , a spiritual tie that binds > us to Our creator, something we can?t put our finger on but we know > it is there and we search, look and live our life?s as best we can > with God always standing just in our shadow, always leading and > guiding us to were we need to come. > > Jer 29:13 And ye shall seeke me, and finde me, when ye shall > search for me with all your heart. > > My opinion?.. we as humans like everything neatly packaged, wrapped > up with a bow and the tell me the whole story from start to finish > in 45 minutes. At most within two hours?.Hollywood figured this > out. But, God is not limited by time and space. We see in > scripture were it takes months and years and a life time for God to > do something. Our life?s only run 50,60,70,80, 90 short years ?. > God?s program is a much larger time span. In my search these last > 20 years, I have not been able to fit it all in a neat little > package. I take what I can and leave the rest till another day. > What does not make sense now, does or might later. For those of us > coming from deep within Christianity there is a DE- construction, a > destroying of false ideals and concepts. During this time I, we and > you will experience to some degree based on our own personalities > and temperaments a sense of loss, an uncertainty about everything, > a fear of dieing and going to hell. Then the flight or fight part of > us kicks in and we want to run away and forget it all. Religion is > so screwed up I just want to live my life and forget it?. We > scream to the heavens? ?kill then all and let God sort it out?. > Then the fight part takes over?. We want to fight?. Southern slang > ? Whoop the devil out of somebody. The church, the preacher?. We > don?t care? We realized we have been lied to and we are mad?. > Upset? emotionally just destroyed. > > But the master is working this all out and my life is just a small > part of his master plan. One of my teachers, said this path is not > for lazy people, it takes work, sweat, toll and tears to study and > slowly try to correct our understanding as we journey back to the > ancients. Have you ever rejoiced and been flooded with peace and > happiness as you saw a truth in scripture, or learned something that > caused you to weep and cry like you had just received a phone call > of the death of a loved one. I will never know it all, but my faith > is in YHVH, Our creator. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. > Don?t just take something because someone you respect says it?. It > must make rational, logical sense to you. And then be tied to the > foundation of Torah. > > My view point?. There are two(2) kinds of people in the world. > Abrahams children(12 tribes) yes, Abraham had children who were not > of these 12 tribes, and gentiles = everyone else. God separated > the children of Israel and they are not to be numbered with the > nations. Who are they? We may know some, we may think we know a > lot, but ultimately God known?s who each of us are. In the end he > will separate the sheep form the goats?. or is that goats from the > sheep? He will place us with the standard we are to stand with. > > A point to ponder on the Talmud?.. Without a Rabbi to teach us, we > can only gleam just so much. In my understanding there is a mind > set / understanding you have to have to understand what the Talmud > teaches. To just go to it and read like you would any other book > will leave you miss understanding most of what you read!. So. I > personally respect it but find much that is hard to understand. > Do I toss it out like so many, NO! Why? It is my understanding > that during the second temple time period their were many different > sects, we have 4 mention in the N.T. Pharisee, Sadducee, essene and > those followers of the Nazarene. (trying to recall from memory)?. > The Pharisee?s followed the oral law and the Sadducees? did not take > the Oral law. Only the text of the torah. One of the arguments that > convinces me we should learn form the oral law is that with out it, > we have no understanding of how to observe some of the > commandments. Also, if you take a strict reading of the torah(first > 5) text you can?t find the doctrine of the resurrection?. Which by > the way, the Sadducees did not except. So, in my mind there must be > more, that helps us understand the ten words, delivered to Moses. > > I think many of our questions will not be answered till ?YHVH > returns? as Dr. Tabor stated the other day in a post. But, instead > of trying to packaged it in a neat little package, we should be > humble and teachable with a meek spirit to learn and follow truth as > we find it and come to understand it. The children of Israel told > Moses at Sinai. We will do it and we will hear it. What does that > mean to me? I will do today what I know today the best I can do, > today! I will hear(learn) some more and apply it and tomorrow I > will do the best I can today! > > I enjoy the dialogue? every post? ?The Young and the Arrested?, > shows exactly how God is at work in each of our life?s to bring us > to were we need to be just at the time we need to be there. > > Shalom > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/d4dbca57/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 19:12:52 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:12:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - PART 8..From Despair to a Cause Message-ID: Hanoch, I'm so sorry to hear about your Mom's illness. I love her just from what you've said about her. I wish we all could have known her. I also hope we'll someday meet your two precious daughters. I'm amazed as I read these segments just how many of the movers and shakers of the Jewish/Tribes world - you have known personally. Hashem has opened these doors, and He will continue to open doors for you. It's also touching that you read the N.T. to better understand the backgrounds of most of the Tribers you meet. I think the very fact that you have felt so drawn to them is evidence of Hashem's hand moving mightily upon your life. For Heaven's sake, don't despair! As I'm writing to you tonight, Proverbs 3:5-6 is playing over and over in my mind: "Trust in the L-RD with all your heart; and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths." Anxiously awaiting the next installment, Pat To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 15:29:37 -0500From: youngbarzel at aol.comSubject: [Dialogue] My Saga - PART 8..From Despair to a Cause The late 80's - early 90's are a bit of a blur to me. You know, like those old black & white movies from the 1940's, which to show the passing of time, focus on the calendar on the kitchen wall, with the pages flying by. That's the way it felt....job changes, unemployment, another graduate degree (an MPA in Health Policy, with a specialization in Healthcare Finance from New York University - because the country was moving to National Healthcare, remember that?!?) and the kids starting to grow up, change of careers into Health Care and finances to juggle. I had hoped the new degree would open all new job prospects, to make more money, to finally get to Israel (and to give me some marketable skills for a job in Israel).Aliyah seemed to be one of those dreams, that would never leave the realm of fantasy. I was aimless Jewishly, knowing that I belonged in Israel, but was still sitting in NYC, like the famed poetry of R' Yehuda HaLevy, " My heart is in the East, but I am in the West.." The Oslo Accords shocked everyone, and I was a lone voice of warning to my friends. I was actually at a party (celebrating my friend's receiving a PhD, and I was ridiculed by those at my table for my views on Israel. They were actually taunting me in front of the other ten people at our table. THEY saw a 'New Middle East," and I saw us supporting those that slaughtered Jews...Even if Jewish Law allowed the surrender of Land (and it does NOT), I argued that the scum Arafat would never change, and it would cost us dearly in terms of Jewish blood. Unfortunately, I was correct...and no, I didn't punch those guys out, but I should have! My debt from this other Graduate Degree was alarming (NYU was costing about $275/credit then, and this was a 60 credit program..)...somehow it was all going to pay off, and all work out in the end, right? It HAD to....But I was working as hard as I could, trying to earn the periodic bonus, for the extra $1,200 or so. However, it was more then just paying bills, it was as much wanting to find a purpose to my life. I'm a 'movement' kind of guy, I NEED a cause....but what cause?? The debts? They'd all be resolved by the 'next' job which would pay more, always the 'next job..' I was doing all I could, and paying bills is certainly not a 'cause.' But, then I had a bit of an epiphany, in 1993....I was reading a terrible book, called Zealots for Zion which was written to slander the 'wackos' (as he saw it) in Israel who were setting up "settlements" and planning to take back the Temple Mount, and rebuild the Holy Temple. The Temple....there were actually people wanting to work on the Temple, NOW?!?! WOW......I was blown away!!! I never heard this talked about in shul.....ever! Never had I heard a Rabbi (in America) speak about this. The book mentioned a guy named Monroe in Florida who was funding these groups in Israel. So what did I do? I called him up!! After thinking at first that I was another freak, he began to realize I was serious, and might be able to help the movement. He was elderly and ill, and seemed to have tons of contacts, and I was full of energy and ideas. He was a very difficult man to deal with, very vulgar (even by Bronx standards), and proud of the fact that he went out of his way to eat non-kosher food, and despised Rabbis. And THIS was the guy who was funding the Temple Mount groups? I just couldn't understand it....and more then 10 years later, STILL can't! His slogan was, "A Minyan on the Mount." A 'minyan' is a prayer quorum of Jewish men. It dawned on me after he died, that had we been able to get Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount, as he wanted, he didn't even know how to pray in Hebrew, and was totally unfamiliar with anything related to Jewish prayer. He had given Rav Kahane money when he was in the Kenneset, but by the time I had met him, he had given most of his money away. Monroe put me in touch with Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute (who happened to be in the U.S. at the time), who I consider a friend and teacher till this day. However, please know that although I mentioned him by name - nothing I say, can be construed as representing him, in any way, shape or form, okay? (there's a LONGGGG story behind THAT disclaimer). Monroe was in touch with most of the 'players' in the Temple Mount movement, and I soon got to meet them, when he sent me to Israel in the summer of 1994 (I had been through a period of unemployment, and had just started a job, telling them that I had this 'vacation' in Israel all planned out already). I met extensively with quite a number of some of the most dynamic Jews of our generation, the REAL Jewish leaders of today. Through Monroe, I was also put in touch with Dell Griffin, who first exposed to the whole Tribes migration theory, and began encouraging me to read the New Testament, in order to understand 'where' all my new friends were coming from, so to speak. That was some of the best advice I've ever gotten....although it's gotten me into too many arguments - both from Jews AND from Christians (and everyone in between!) I began to enter the unique world of those in Israel who are dedicated to restoring the Har HaBayit, the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple. It was right around this time that I somehow, (can't remember how) stumbled across the UIWU - the United Israel World Union; an organization dedicated to the Hebrew prophets and the return of the Ten Lost Tribes. Finally, I had found my purpose!!! These were quickly adopted by me as my twin goals for my life, I jumped in, headfirst. Other then my daughters and my job, I LIVED to work for the Temple and/or the Tribes. That's all I wanted to talk about, all I wanted to read about, all I wanted to focus on. I'm not TOO much of a 'movement' person, huh? Remember to check out, Eric Hoffer's The True Believer - it fits me perfectly! I don't know how I heard about that first UIWU meeting (then held in NYC, where David Horowitz lived) that I went to, but as soon as I went I was hooked! At the time, James and Dennis Jones were producing a fabulous newsletter, "Jezreel's Call" - when I read it, I just wondered where these people had been all my life! I soon met James, Dennis, J David Davis, Becky & Ralph , Timothy Thompson, Betty & Roger and others (PLEASE forgive me if I've left out any names...). I recall listening to Timothy tell his personal story, and had to keep biting my lip to stop myself from cryinig! I was so emotionally moved by these individuals, who were giving up SO MUCH, to study Torah. It made me feel ashamed that I wasn't learning even more then I was, with all the resources available to me. I read and reread every publication that James or Dennis could give me - "Jezrell's Call" as well as "Restoring Abrahamic Faith," and the UIWU Bulliten's. I was so caught up with this movement, and with these people, who I was so drawn to, far more then my friends who I went to shul with. Everything they said and did seemed imbued with a level of spirituality and caring that overwhelmed me. I felt a sense of kinship, unlike I'd ever felt, and I had been in quite a few Jewish organizations and movements up to that point. I remember calling Dennis Jones almost every Saturday night, and talking endlessly. I wanted to do more, read more, speak to more people, make 'this' happen, right away, NOW! And what was 'this?' It was the restoration of the Temple Mount, the rebuilding of the Temple itself, and the reunification of the Tribes (that's all I wanted, not too much to ask, right? LOL)In rapid succession, I attended other UIWU meetings met more and more people affiliated with this 'movement,' which really wasn't a movement, and went to a Bnai Noah Conference in Athens, TN, run by J David Davis @ Emmanuel. It was an amazing experience for me - here were people who weren't Jewish, but felt the SAME way I did about the Hebrew prophets, the SAME way I did about Israel, the SAME way about the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Temple!!! I couldn't process it all!! I met Ross, Mike Dallen, and a host of others, all who deeply touched my soul. I soon learned that there were many, many types of people that attended these events, all with various views of Jesus/Yeshua. And it was only until I had read the New Testament, and had countless talks with Dell and Ross, that I began to understand the world that these wonderful men and women were coming from. Which was as different to me, as mine was to them.....I missed it when I wasn't with them, and yearned for the kind of "fellowship" (a term never heard in my circles) that I felt with them. I couldn't understand (and I don't think they could either!) howand why I was so drawn to them. Many times, for various personal reasons I have tried to 'walk away,' so to speak, but always have come back. These are my friends...these are the people I relate to. No, I have no Christian background at all, and no, I have never, ever had a relationship with Jesus...but I still, strangely enough, 'get' where they're coming from. But I didn't know what I could to to help them in their quest, on the so-called, "Ancient Paths." I was afraid to speak up too much, for fear that people would think that I was leading them to Judaism, which I wasn't. For those who believed themselves to be from the Lost Tribes, from Ephraim, then I wanted to make sure that there was at least one person from Judah there to greet them - me. Maybe THAT was what my role was supposed to be.I tried to create excitement and interest in the Jewish community about the Temple Mount issues, and was met with total disinterest. The prevailing feeling was, when the Messianic Era gets here, all of this will be explained, and we'll figure it all out then......NOT what I wanted to hear. I was getting more of a 'fringe' reputation in the Jewish community THEN, then when I was the 'militant Kahanist."My girls were the light of my life, it was wonderful to talk with them, particularly when they learned about the weekly Parsha (Torah reading). I remember trying to get young Kyra to tell me about Yaakov and Esav (Esau), and tricking their father. She remembered Yaakov's name, but seemed stuck on the other one. Then she remembered! "Abba, you know, the hairy boy!" It seemed that she had done a project in school that had Esav have 'furry' arms. I still tease her about that...the hairy boy.....LOLAyala was a gem, a true young lady, with wonderful Torah values, I was so proud of them, and how they acted, particularly to my mom. They would call her every day upon arriving home from school, and would tell her all about their day, then she would tell them to was their faces, have a snack (which SHE decided), and MADE them do their homework! She wanted it done before Abba (Daddy - me) got home. I got really good at braiding Ayala's hair when she was young, but I never did learn that French Braid thing....maybe for my grandchildren, that HaShem should bless me with....Monroe sent me to Israel again in 1996 to try to bring unity to the various Temple Mount groups - it was a failure....He didn't have the money to back up what he was trying to do, and the Temple Mount cause was still considered fringe. I spent a lot to time with Yehuda Etzion, who had been one of the heads of what was called, "The Jewish Underground," the group that among other things, was planning to remove the abomination from the Temple Mount. My Yehuda stories will have to be in the next chapter....So, while waiting for the next UIWU 'fix,' I tried to learn Torah, and actually tried to perfect my Hebrew. Ayala and Kyra were the driving forces for me to try to get to Israel. I used to explain (lecture, is more like it, I'm sure) to them the importance of living in Israel, and how the mitzvot (commandments) are designed to be done in Israel. How we are a religio-nation (Rav Kahane taught me that..), designed to live a certain way, in a certain land - Israel. With kids, you never know when you're reaching them, though.My mom was the one who was my backup when the kids needed a babysitter, and the regular sitter was available. Mom spent many Shabbatot (plural of Shabbat, of course..) with us, and cared for the girls while I cooked and prepared for holidays (particularly Pesah - Passover). She was even supportive of my Aliyah dreams, even though it would break her heart if I had left. The girls and I used to talk about how great it would be to get a house in Israel, large enough for grandma, so she's have her own entrance, and we could be all together in Israel!! What a wonderful vision. She was the one who I could call at the end of a tough day, she was my personal 'cheerleader,' she was ALWAYS on my side. I had no idea how I could do this all without her love and support. Then my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer..... to be continued.... More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/f91578d5/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Mon Dec 3 19:18:22 2007 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:18:22 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting Subject? But in Gen:21: 10 The son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with my son--Issac. 21:12 in Issac shall thy seed be called. Seems as if this means the Arabs do NOT have a part in the inheritance of Israel??? Just my thought. Dick L. There is more----but I'll leave it to the experts. Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Ross, Here is what I got from my Christian teacher about how the prophesies may pertain to the state of Israel today and in response to your post on your ROF Lesson for November. I would appreciate your response as I am a beginner at this but trying hard to understand what is for me overwhelming. Thank you for this open forum and "big tent" dialogue about critical issues in critical times. Bonnie Bonnie: My take on this subject follows. In my opinion, those who believe that the fulfillment of the prophecies of Joel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, are to be found in today's State of Israel are misinterpreting the meanings of 'Judah' and 'Israel.' The time spoken of by Joel 3, for example, lists both Judah and Israel but does so from a different standpoint than is typically interpreted. KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of JUDAH and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage ISRAEL, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. Those prophets were living during the period of the Divided Kingdoms of Judah and Israel, i.e., long after the death of Solomon. To those prophets, 'JUDAH' referred to the Southern Kingdom that included primarily the tribe of Judah, the small tribe of Benjamin and a smattering of the remains of the tribe of Simeon [the majority of Simeon failed to defeat the Edomites (descendants of Esau) and assimilated with them. Today, those Israelites are part of the 'Arabs' in and around Israel and those descendants of Simeon do not even know they are Israelites. Many would be horrified to find that they were!]. In those prophets' times, the Northern Kingdom of Israel essentially had no religion. Jereboam who became the first king of ISRAEL (which included the other 9 tribes) refused to allow the people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel to go to the Temple in Jerusalem. For the most part, they took up the worship of the pagan gods of the Canaanites. There was a stressful period of better than 200 years with the two kingdoms--the Northern Kingdom refusing to worship God at all (the 'faithless Israel' Jer 3:6) and 'unfaithful Judah' based in Jerusalem (Jer 3:7) frequently setting aside their worship of God by also sacrificing to heathen idols. One key thing to note here, is the distinction between 'faithless Israel' versus 'unfaithful Judah.' By 722 BCE, the Northern Kingdom of ISRAEL had been taken captive by the Assyrians and scattered throughout the Assyrian empire. Those nine tribes are part of the 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.' (The other lost tribe was Simeon as above.) For roughly 150 years, the Southern Kingdom of 'Judah' was all that remained of the identifiable 12 Tribes of Israel. Then, during the time of Jeremiah, Solomon's Temple was destroyed when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 585 BCE. The tribe of Judah was then carried off to Babylonian captivity for about 70 years. Under Ezra and Nehemiah a group of those captive 'Jews' returned to Jerusalem where they rebuilt the city walls and erected the Second Temple--roughly about 500 BCE. SO, when those prophets spoke of 'JUDAH' they were talking about the people that became known as the 'Jews.' The rest of the tribes of Israel were never called 'Jews.' When the prophets spoke of 'ISRAEL' they were talking about the people who were taken into captivity but who had lost their identities as descendants of Abraham (actually Israel==Jacob). So, in Joel 3:1, the prophet is speaking of the coming Babylonian captivity which dealt only with Judah and Jerusalem. In Joel 3:2 notice that Israel is the scattered portion. KJV Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. It is essential to recognize the difference between Judah and Israel to make sense of these prophecies. The opinion that the prophets' use of 'Israel' to mean the 'Jews' of today is very shaky in my opinion. The references to Israel returning and occupying the land in peace has NOT YET COME TO PASS. I believe it WILL happen, but not yet. The first return of 'Jews' (Judah) as we see it today may well be the first stages of the process of Israel (the other tribes) returning. BUT FIRST, the descendants of the 'lost' Israel must be identified and desire to return to the Holy Land. Personally, I think the current geneticists' work on studying DNA will eventually give us an identity marker to identify all Israelites. But to say that the land was promised to the 'Jews' is misleading. God's promise is to ALL the descendants of Israel to INCLUDE the Jews but it is not to be limited to them. As a matter of fact, God's promise given to Abraham HAS BEEN FULFILLED for many centuries. [Gen 15:18] On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-- Abraham's descendants included Ishmael, Esau, [Gen 25:1] After Sarah's death, Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah. She bore him SIX more sons. [Gen 25:2] She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. ALL of them produced descendants that settled in that region between the Nile and the Euphrates! They are still there and we often call them 'Arabs.' That land belongs to ALL of them in accordance with God's promise to Abraham. They just need to learn to share it peaceably. Maybe something positive CAN come of the Annapolis Summit!! Shalom, Blair > > ============= > Shalom to all! > > > > This week I have been flooded with insights while preparing my lesson. > I simply can't wait until this Saturday morning's class. We are living > in exciting times. This week, while leaders from all over the world > convened in Annapolis, Maryland to discuss among other things, the > future of Jerusalem, I have been busy studying what God's word has to > say about it. > > > > You shouldn't be surprised to find out that there is a great difference > between what various political leaders have in mind and what God sets > forth in the Bible through His prophets. > > > > You may however be surprised to learn that the ancient Triennial cycle > reading from the Law and the Prophets to be read this Saturday, speaks > directly about this subject. > > > > In this week's Torah reading (Genesis 12 and 13) as well as the > Prophets reading (Joshua 24) we read very clearly that God gave the > land of Israel to Abram and his seed, specifically through Isaac and > Jacob. > > > > In my estimation, the return of the Jewish people to the land promised > to the patriarchs in our day, is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. > This return of Israel to the "promised land" is perhaps the most > prominent theme in the Hebrew Prophets, mentioned in over 40 major > sections of the texts. As I have pointed out before, God's restoration > of Israel to the promised land is the one thing that He will do with > "all His heart and all His soul" - Jeremiah 32:41. > > > > One should take note that God calls this small and highly contested > land - "my land" in Joel 3:2. Jews, Christians and Moslems all lay > claim to it in all or in part, but this week's class will make clear > that the "title / deed" was promised by God to a single family - > Israel! > > > > It is commonly referred to today as the "Holy Land". (See Zechariah > 2:13 for the one time in the Bible where this name is used to refer to > "the Land" of Israel). > > > > In my studies this week I found one passage to be most incredible. > Popular translations don't do justice to this passage and so I have > translated it myself in order to render it more closely to the original > Hebrew. It may seem awkward in English, but this literal rendering is > much better I think. In Deuteronomy 11:12 we find that this land is; > > > > "a land which the LORD your God searches her continually: the eyes of > the LORD are on her, from the beginning of the year and until the end > of the year." > > > > Think about that! Can you imagine God searching this land continually > throughout the year with His eyes? The image I get is of a guard > looking up and down this strip of land from a strategic viewpoint! > > > > Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel had to > say about the subject that they now consider. > > > > In the third chapter of Joel we read: > > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall > bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather > all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage > Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my > land. > > > > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all nations is > brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on "in the > news". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/4bbef8f4/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Dec 3 19:26:32 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:26:32 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: <8CF719CE-F6FC-4A5C-9690-6A2497AC7CCA@alaska.com> Message-ID: <00ca01c83614$b4204a40$653c66c9@bettygivin> Bonnie, Indeed all the terminology can be very confusing because different people from different groups may have a different view of what a term actually means. I think you are correct about he etomology of the word, ?Christ,? I think it comes from the Greek word, ?Christos,? which I think means anointed. At least we know that Messiah comes from the Hebrew root, ?to be anointed.? From what I remember, all the kings were anointed, yet we would not look on all of them in the present day use of the word, ?Messiah.? I think going with the dictionary definition is fairly safe. Personally when I considered myself a Christian, I did not consider myself to be pagan (in looking back, I certainly engaged in pagan practices of which I was not aware). But the point is?nor did I consider other Christians who were a different ?brand? than I was ?pagan,? just because they did not agree with me. To me, this may be bordering on name calling and affixing labels where we need not be affixing labels. Certain practices may be pagan, but that does not necessarily make the ones who practice them pagan. To me, paganism falls under the dictionary definition of polytheism, pantheism, etc., and in our Western culture, is somewhat of a derogatory name. This is just my take. Shalom and Blessings _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 5:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Betty and Dick, and all, I am so far behind in reading these emails, but I hope I will have time today to begin to catch up and better understand your many thoughts. Some time ago my Rabbi teacher suggested I read "The Rise of Christianity," by Friend. After Jesus or Yeshua died this author talks about several sects and some called themselves Jewish Christians and some gentile Christians. (And an aside is I think I remember Jewish followers of Jesus did not believe him to be divine and did not use the word Christ, which I think comes from a Greek word.) I don't see how "turning from idols" could be a definition since Abraham turned from idols, and so I think in Genesis gentile would have been the idol worshipers. When Jesus was alive I think the definition of gentile maybe was non-Jew. Today I think some Christians think of gentile as pagan, and other Christians think of the Christians as the gentiles. Very confusing. Wikepedia agrees with Betty wth respect to how gentile is most commonly defined for today's gentile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile As in the King James Bible, from the 17th century onwards gentile was most commonly used to refer to non-Jews. This was in the context of European Christian societies with a Jewish minority. For this reason Gentile commonly meant persons brought up in the Christian faith, as opposed to the adherents of Judaism, and was not typically used to refer to non-Jews in non-Western cultures. and a minority view is as a synonym for pagan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pagan The term "pagan" is a Christian adaptation of the " gentile" of Judaism, and as such has an inherent Christian or Abrahamic bias, and pejorative connotations among Westerners, [2] comparable to heathen, and infidel, mushrik and kafir (????) in Islam. For this reason, ethnologists avoid the term "paganism," with its uncertain and varied meanings, in referring to traditional or historic faiths, preferring more precise categories such as polytheism, shamanism, pantheism, or animism. Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:36 AM, Dick L wrote: I guess I liken a Gentile to be, as it says in Acts-------"Those who have turned to God from serving Idols". I was raised Catholic. They (Catholics) have been removing there statues from the Churches now. They leave the man on the cross though. Dick L. Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Hi Betty and Dick, It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it seems like they are defining it differently. Like when Dick said: "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to be. Confused, Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non-Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of course, all can speak for themselves. Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many horrific things have been done to them in the name of Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention that because it just came up. Shalom and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 dictionary definitions? 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2: heathen, pagan 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hey Dick, Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the Christians any longer. My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the words of encouragement, Dick. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G-d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: Denny, I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) search for Me with all your heart. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/6c0145fa/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Mon Dec 3 19:39:38 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 17:39:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <896899.79634.qm@web57108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dick, I totally agree.......the Arabs, in my opinion, do NOT have a part in the inheritance of Israel!! Thank you for voicing what I was thinking, but was reluctant to say. Shalom, Tammy Dick L wrote: Very interesting Subject? But in Gen:21: 10 The son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with my son--Issac. 21:12 in Issac shall thy seed be called. Seems as if this means the Arabs do NOT have a part in the inheritance of Israel??? Just my thought. Dick L. There is more----but I'll leave it to the experts. Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Ross, Here is what I got from my Christian teacher about how the prophesies may pertain to the state of Israel today and in response to your post on your ROF Lesson for November. I would appreciate your response as I am a beginner at this but trying hard to understand what is for me overwhelming. Thank you for this open forum and "big tent" dialogue about critical issues in critical times. Bonnie Bonnie: My take on this subject follows. In my opinion, those who believe that the fulfillment of the prophecies of Joel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, are to be found in today's State of Israel are misinterpreting the meanings of 'Judah' and 'Israel.' The time spoken of by Joel 3, for example, lists both Judah and Israel but does so from a different standpoint than is typically interpreted. KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of JUDAH and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage ISRAEL, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. Those prophets were living during the period of the Divided Kingdoms of Judah and Israel, i.e., long after the death of Solomon. To those prophets, 'JUDAH' referred to the Southern Kingdom that included primarily the tribe of Judah, the small tribe of Benjamin and a smattering of the remains of the tribe of Simeon [the majority of Simeon failed to defeat the Edomites (descendants of Esau) and assimilated with them. Today, those Israelites are part of the 'Arabs' in and around Israel and those descendants of Simeon do not even know they are Israelites. Many would be horrified to find that they were!]. In those prophets' times, the Northern Kingdom of Israel essentially had no religion. Jereboam who became the first king of ISRAEL (which included the other 9 tribes) refused to allow the people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel to go to the Temple in Jerusalem. For the most part, they took up the worship of the pagan gods of the Canaanites. There was a stressful period of better than 200 years with the two kingdoms--the Northern Kingdom refusing to worship God at all (the 'faithless Israel' Jer 3:6) and 'unfaithful Judah' based in Jerusalem (Jer 3:7) frequently setting aside their worship of God by also sacrificing to heathen idols. One key thing to note here, is the distinction between 'faithless Israel' versus 'unfaithful Judah.' By 722 BCE, the Northern Kingdom of ISRAEL had been taken captive by the Assyrians and scattered throughout the Assyrian empire. Those nine tribes are part of the 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.' (The other lost tribe was Simeon as above.) For roughly 150 years, the Southern Kingdom of 'Judah' was all that remained of the identifiable 12 Tribes of Israel. Then, during the time of Jeremiah, Solomon's Temple was destroyed when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 585 BCE. The tribe of Judah was then carried off to Babylonian captivity for about 70 years. Under Ezra and Nehemiah a group of those captive 'Jews' returned to Jerusalem where they rebuilt the city walls and erected the Second Temple--roughly about 500 BCE. SO, when those prophets spoke of 'JUDAH' they were talking about the people that became known as the 'Jews.' The rest of the tribes of Israel were never called 'Jews.' When the prophets spoke of 'ISRAEL' they were talking about the people who were taken into captivity but who had lost their identities as descendants of Abraham (actually Israel==Jacob). So, in Joel 3:1, the prophet is speaking of the coming Babylonian captivity which dealt only with Judah and Jerusalem. In Joel 3:2 notice that Israel is the scattered portion. KJV Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. It is essential to recognize the difference between Judah and Israel to make sense of these prophecies. The opinion that the prophets' use of 'Israel' to mean the 'Jews' of today is very shaky in my opinion. The references to Israel returning and occupying the land in peace has NOT YET COME TO PASS. I believe it WILL happen, but not yet. The first return of 'Jews' (Judah) as we see it today may well be the first stages of the process of Israel (the other tribes) returning. BUT FIRST, the descendants of the 'lost' Israel must be identified and desire to return to the Holy Land. Personally, I think the current geneticists' work on studying DNA will eventually give us an identity marker to identify all Israelites. But to say that the land was promised to the 'Jews' is misleading. God's promise is to ALL the descendants of Israel to INCLUDE the Jews but it is not to be limited to them. As a matter of fact, God's promise given to Abraham HAS BEEN FULFILLED for many centuries. [Gen 15:18] On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-- Abraham's descendants included Ishmael, Esau, [Gen 25:1] After Sarah's death, Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah. She bore him SIX more sons. [Gen 25:2] She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. ALL of them produced descendants that settled in that region between the Nile and the Euphrates! They are still there and we often call them 'Arabs.' That land belongs to ALL of them in accordance with God's promise to Abraham. They just need to learn to share it peaceably. Maybe something positive CAN come of the Annapolis Summit!! Shalom, Blair > > ============= > Shalom to all! > > > > This week I have been flooded with insights while preparing my lesson. > I simply can't wait until this Saturday morning's class. We are living > in exciting times. This week, while leaders from all over the world > convened in Annapolis, Maryland to discuss among other things, the > future of Jerusalem, I have been busy studying what God's word has to > say about it. > > > > You shouldn't be surprised to find out that there is a great difference > between what various political leaders have in mind and what God sets > forth in the Bible through His prophets. > > > > You may however be surprised to learn that the ancient Triennial cycle > reading from the Law and the Prophets to be read this Saturday, speaks > directly about this subject. > > > > In this week's Torah reading (Genesis 12 and 13) as well as the > Prophets reading (Joshua 24) we read very clearly that God gave the > land of Israel to Abram and his seed, specifically through Isaac and > Jacob. > > > > In my estimation, the return of the Jewish people to the land promised > to the patriarchs in our day, is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. > This return of Israel to the "promised land" is perhaps the most > prominent theme in the Hebrew Prophets, mentioned in over 40 major > sections of the texts. As I have pointed out before, God's restoration > of Israel to the promised land is the one thing that He will do with > "all His heart and all His soul" - Jeremiah 32:41. > > > > One should take note that God calls this small and highly contested > land - "my land" in Joel 3:2. Jews, Christians and Moslems all lay > claim to it in all or in part, but this week's class will make clear > that the "title / deed" was promised by God to a single family - > Israel! > > > > It is commonly referred to today as the "Holy Land". (See Zechariah > 2:13 for the one time in the Bible where this name is used to refer to > "the Land" of Israel). > > > > In my studies this week I found one passage to be most incredible. > Popular translations don't do justice to this passage and so I have > translated it myself in order to render it more closely to the original > Hebrew. It may seem awkward in English, but this literal rendering is > much better I think. In Deuteronomy 11:12 we find that this land is; > > > > "a land which the LORD your God searches her continually: the eyes of > the LORD are on her, from the beginning of the year and until the end > of the year." > > > > Think about that! Can you imagine God searching this land continually > throughout the year with His eyes? The image I get is of a guard > looking up and down this strip of land from a strategic viewpoint! > > > > Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel had to > say about the subject that they now consider. > > > > In the third chapter of Joel we read: > > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall > bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather > all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage > Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my > land. > > > > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all nations is > brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on "in the > news". > > --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/96904ef9/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Dec 3 19:42:22 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:42:22 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - PART 8..From Despair to a Cause In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00db01c83616$ea228390$653c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, I cannot add another single word to what Pat and others have said regarding your saga.and especially this last segment regarding your Mom, your girls, your heart for HaShem and for all of us lost tribers, and the doors that HaShem has opened for you as a result.except to say, Baruch HaShem that you have walked thru the doors that He provided and that we have been richly blessed.because in those early days, a number of us not only grabbed onto your tzit-tzit, but you grabbed onto our hearts and became our big brother and it looks as if the family is growing! Toda rabba!!! (Thank-you very much!) Love and Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 7:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] My Saga - PART 8..From Despair to a Cause Hanoch, I'm so sorry to hear about your Mom's illness. I love her just from what you've said about her. I wish we all could have known her. I also hope we'll someday meet your two precious daughters. I'm amazed as I read these segments just how many of the movers and shakers of the Jewish/Tribes world - you have known personally. Hashem has opened these doors, and He will continue to open doors for you. It's also touching that you read the N.T. to better understand the backgrounds of most of the Tribers you meet. I think the very fact that you have felt so drawn to them is evidence of Hashem's hand moving mightily upon your life. For Heaven's sake, don't despair! As I'm writing to you tonight, Proverbs 3:5-6 is playing over and over in my mind: "Trust in the L-RD with all your heart; and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths." Anxiously awaiting the next installment, Pat _____ To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 15:29:37 -0500 From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] My Saga - PART 8..From Despair to a Cause The late 80's - early 90's are a bit of a blur to me. You know, like those old black & white movies from the 1940's, which to show the passing of time, focus on the calendar on the kitchen wall, with the pages flying by. That's the way it felt....job changes, unemployment, another graduate degree (an MPA in Health Policy, with a specialization in Healthcare Finance from New York University - because the country was moving to National Healthcare, remember that?!?) and the kids starting to grow up, change of careers into Health Care and finances to juggle. I had hoped the new degree would open all new job prospects, to make more money, to finally get to Israel (and to give me some marketable skills for a job in Israel). Aliyah seemed to be one of those dreams, that would never leave the realm of fantasy. I was aimless Jewishly, knowing that I belonged in Israel, but was still sitting in NYC, like the famed poetry of R' Yehuda HaLevy, " My heart is in the East, but I am in the West.." The Oslo Accords shocked everyone, and I was a lone voice of warning to my friends. I was actually at a party (celebrating my friend's receiving a PhD, and I was ridiculed by those at my table for my views on Israel. They were actually taunting me in front of the other ten people at our table. THEY saw a 'New Middle East," and I saw us supporting those that slaughtered Jews...Even if Jewish Law allowed the surrender of Land (and it does NOT), I argued that the scum Arafat would never change, and it would cost us dearly in terms of Jewish blood. Unfortunately, I was correct...and no, I didn't punch those guys out, but I should have! My debt from this other Graduate Degree was alarming (NYU was costing about $275/credit then, and this was a 60 credit program..)...somehow it was all going to pay off, and all work out in the end, right? It HAD to....But I was working as hard as I could, trying to earn the periodic bonus, for the extra $1,200 or so. However, it was more then just paying bills, it was as much wanting to find a purpose to my life. I'm a 'movement' kind of guy, I NEED a cause....but what cause?? The debts? They'd all be resolved by the 'next' job which would pay more, always the 'next job..' I was doing all I could, and paying bills is certainly not a 'cause.' But, then I had a bit of an epiphany, in 1993....I was reading a terrible book, called Zealots for Zion which was written to slander the 'wackos' (as he saw it) in Israel who were setting up "settlements" and planning to take back the Temple Mount, and rebuild the Holy Temple. The Temple....there were actually people wanting to work on the Temple, NOW?!?! WOW......I was blown away!!! I never heard this talked about in shul.....ever! Never had I heard a Rabbi (in America) speak about this. The book mentioned a guy named Monroe in Florida who was funding these groups in Israel. So what did I do? I called him up!! After thinking at first that I was another freak, he began to realize I was serious, and might be able to help the movement. He was elderly and ill, and seemed to have tons of contacts, and I was full of energy and ideas. He was a very difficult man to deal with, very vulgar (even by Bronx standards), and proud of the fact that he went out of his way to eat non-kosher food, and despised Rabbis. And THIS was the guy who was funding the Temple Mount groups? I just couldn't understand it....and more then 10 years later, STILL can't! His slogan was, "A Minyan on the Mount." A 'minyan' is a prayer quorum of Jewish men. It dawned on me after he died, that had we been able to get Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount, as he wanted, he didn't even know how to pray in Hebrew, and was totally unfamiliar with anything related to Jewish prayer. He had given Rav Kahane money when he was in the Kenneset, but by the time I had met him, he had given most of his money away. Monroe put me in touch with Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute (who happened to be in the U.S. at the time), who I consider a friend and teacher till this day. However, please know that although I mentioned him by name - nothing I say, can be construed as representing him, in any way, shape or form, okay? (there's a LONGGGG story behind THAT disclaimer). Monroe was in touch with most of the 'players' in the Temple Mount movement, and I soon got to meet them, when he sent me to Israel in the summer of 1994 (I had been through a period of unemployment, and had just started a job, telling them that I had this 'vacation' in Israel all planned out already). I met extensively with quite a number of some of the most dynamic Jews of our generation, the REAL Jewish leaders of today. Through Monroe, I was also put in touch with Dell Griffin, who first exposed to the whole Tribes migration theory, and began encouraging me to read the New Testament, in order to understand 'where' all my new friends were coming from, so to speak. That was some of the best advice I've ever gotten....although it's gotten me into too many arguments - both from Jews AND from Christians (and everyone in between!) I began to enter the unique world of those in Israel who are dedicated to restoring the Har HaBayit, the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash, the Holy Temple. It was right around this time that I somehow, (can't remember how) stumbled across the UIWU - the United Israel World Union; an organization dedicated to the Hebrew prophets and the return of the Ten Lost Tribes. Finally, I had found my purpose!!! These were quickly adopted by me as my twin goals for my life, I jumped in, headfirst. Other then my daughters and my job, I LIVED to work for the Temple and/or the Tribes. That's all I wanted to talk about, all I wanted to read about, all I wanted to focus on. I'm not TOO much of a 'movement' person, huh? Remember to check out, Eric Hoffer's The True Believer - it fits me perfectly! I don't know how I heard about that first UIWU meeting (then held in NYC, where David Horowitz lived) that I went to, but as soon as I went I was hooked! At the time, James and Dennis Jones were producing a fabulous newsletter, "Jezreel's Call" - when I read it, I just wondered where these people had been all my life! I soon met James, Dennis, J David Davis, Becky & Ralph , Timothy Thompson, Betty & Roger and others (PLEASE forgive me if I've left out any names...). I recall listening to Timothy tell his personal story, and had to keep biting my lip to stop myself from cryinig! I was so emotionally moved by these individuals, who were giving up SO MUCH, to study Torah. It made me feel ashamed that I wasn't learning even more then I was, with all the resources available to me. I read and reread every publication that James or Dennis could give me - "Jezrell's Call" as well as "Restoring Abrahamic Faith," and the UIWU Bulliten's. I was so caught up with this movement, and with these people, who I was so drawn to, far more then my friends who I went to shul with. Everything they said and did seemed imbued with a level of spirituality and caring that overwhelmed me. I felt a sense of kinship, unlike I'd ever felt, and I had been in quite a few Jewish organizations and movements up to that point. I remember calling Dennis Jones almost every Saturday night, and talking endlessly. I wanted to do more, read more, speak to more people, make 'this' happen, right away, NOW! And what was 'this?' It was the restoration of the Temple Mount, the rebuilding of the Temple itself, and the reunification of the Tribes (that's all I wanted, not too much to ask, right? LOL) In rapid succession, I attended other UIWU meetings met more and more people affiliated with this 'movement,' which really wasn't a movement, and went to a Bnai Noah Conference in Athens, TN, run by J David Davis @ Emmanuel. It was an amazing experience for me - here were people who weren't Jewish, but felt the SAME way I did about the Hebrew prophets, the SAME way I did about Israel, the SAME way about the Temple Mount, and rebuilding the Temple!!! I couldn't process it all!! I met Ross, Mike Dallen, and a host of others, all who deeply touched my soul. I soon learned that there were many, many types of people that attended these events, all with various views of Jesus/Yeshua. And it was only until I had read the New Testament, and had countless talks with Dell and Ross, that I began to understand the world that these wonderful men and women were coming from. Which was as different to me, as mine was to them..... I missed it when I wasn't with them, and yearned for the kind of "fellowship" (a term never heard in my circles) that I felt with them. I couldn't understand (and I don't think they could either!) howand why I was so drawn to them. Many times, for various personal reasons I have tried to 'walk away,' so to speak, but always have come back. These are my friends...these are the people I relate to. No, I have no Christian background at all, and no, I have never, ever had a relationship with Jesus...but I still, strangely enough, 'get' where they're coming from. But I didn't know what I could to to help them in their quest, on the so-called, "Ancient Paths." I was afraid to speak up too much, for fear that people would think that I was leading them to Judaism, which I wasn't. For those who believed themselves to be from the Lost Tribes, from Ephraim, then I wanted to make sure that there was at least one person from Judah there to greet them - me. Maybe THAT was what my role was supposed to be. I tried to create excitement and interest in the Jewish community about the Temple Mount issues, and was met with total disinterest. The prevailing feeling was, when the Messianic Era gets here, all of this will be explained, and we'll figure it all out then......NOT what I wanted to hear. I was getting more of a 'fringe' reputation in the Jewish community THEN, then when I was the 'militant Kahanist." My girls were the light of my life, it was wonderful to talk with them, particularly when they learned about the weekly Parsha (Torah reading). I remember trying to get young Kyra to tell me about Yaakov and Esav (Esau), and tricking their father. She remembered Yaakov's name, but seemed stuck on the other one. Then she remembered! "Abba, you know, the hairy boy!" It seemed that she had done a project in school that had Esav have 'furry' arms. I still tease her about that...the hairy boy.....LOL Ayala was a gem, a true young lady, with wonderful Torah values, I was so proud of them, and how they acted, particularly to my mom. They would call her every day upon arriving home from school, and would tell her all about their day, then she would tell them to was their faces, have a snack (which SHE decided), and MADE them do their homework! She wanted it done before Abba (Daddy - me) got home. I got really good at braiding Ayala's hair when she was young, but I never did learn that French Braid thing....maybe for my grandchildren, that HaShem should bless me with.... Monroe sent me to Israel again in 1996 to try to bring unity to the various Temple Mount groups - it was a failure....He didn't have the money to back up what he was trying to do, and the Temple Mount cause was still considered fringe. I spent a lot to time with Yehuda Etzion, who had been one of the heads of what was called, "The Jewish Underground," the group that among other things, was planning to remove the abomination from the Temple Mount. My Yehuda stories will have to be in the next chapter.... So, while waiting for the next UIWU 'fix,' I tried to learn Torah, and actually tried to perfect my Hebrew. Ayala and Kyra were the driving forces for me to try to get to Israel. I used to explain (lecture, is more like it, I'm sure) to them the importance of living in Israel, and how the mitzvot (commandments) are designed to be done in Israel. How we are a religio-nation (Rav Kahane taught me that..), designed to live a certain way, in a certain land - Israel. With kids, you never know when you're reaching them, though. My mom was the one who was my backup when the kids needed a babysitter, and the regular sitter was available. Mom spent many Shabbatot (plural of Shabbat, of course..) with us, and cared for the girls while I cooked and prepared for holidays (particularly Pesah - Passover). She was even supportive of my Aliyah dreams, even though it would break her heart if I had left. The girls and I used to talk about how great it would be to get a house in Israel, large enough for grandma, so she's have her own entrance, and we could be all together in Israel!! What a wonderful vision. She was the one who I could call at the end of a tough day, she was my personal 'cheerleader,' she was ALWAYS on my side. I had no idea how I could do this all without her love and support. Then my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer..... to be continued.... _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/0d2e62a0/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Mon Dec 3 19:54:56 2007 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:54:56 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah References: Message-ID: <00b101c83618$acbb9a30$6400a8c0@davesbook> Hey John, The observatory is off of Highland Road near Burbank Dr. at a BREC Park....we need to find out if there is limited seating. Lovin' this Dialoging dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:58 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Where is the Highland Observatory? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/fd6c1d09/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Dec 3 20:04:19 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:04:19 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] We will do it, We will hear it! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ec01c83619$fb76fa60$653c66c9@bettygivin> Marvin, I don't think I have ever had the pleasure of meeting you personally, but I am with James here. Your post is full of much wisdom. Thank-you for sharing your insights and gleanings thru the years. Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:21 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] We will do it, We will hear it! Marvin and I go back a long, long, way and I just want to thank him for this thoughtful post, so full of the wisdom that comes with living and walking with God. James On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:37 AM, mhyde wrote: As I read the letters of each of us, I see where God is working in all of our life's, It's just a little different but still almost the same for each of us. I noticed years ago, when reading the Bible, looking at the stories of the characters there, that they were struggling with earthly things just like we do, but they were focused on God and we all know that God is focused on each of us, his children. Abraham our father, was a friend to God - Such a special relationship - can we fathom what this means? One of the things I think we fell to see as we read the text of the Torah and Prophets is that these people were human. They struggled everyday with earthly things... wife's, husbands, relationships, jobs, neighbor's, children, sick children, sick animals, crops that might not come in, shortage of food in the house, bills to be paid, old and sick parents, dieing siblings.. What we call life. When I was a young man - I could run all day, work 5 men my equals into the ground, In my minds eye, I could see myself standing with King David, fighting and killing Philistines, taking back the land... My father told the story of how I would retell the bible stories, as a young child, I learned in Sunday school class with such vividness, excitement and awareness, as if I was telling something I had experienced and lived instead of a story I was told by a dear old sainted Grandmother in Sunday school. My father is gone now, but I bet he was so proud as we parents are wont to be, when we watch our children, as I screamed, ran around and waved my arms as - we parted the Red Sea, slew goliath and hacked off his head or took the city as the walls came down at Jericho. Was I just being a kid.., this thing today, something else next week, teenage years and girls and cars... no time for God. God was doing something in me at an early age, that I will not live long enough to get over... If you understand what I mean. I think each of us have a similar story or feeling , a spiritual tie that binds us to Our creator, something we can't put our finger on but we know it is there and we search, look and live our life's as best we can with God always standing just in our shadow, always leading and guiding us to were we need to come. Jer 29:13 And ye shall seeke me, and finde me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. My opinion... we as humans like everything neatly packaged, wrapped up with a bow and the tell me the whole story from start to finish in 45 minutes. At most within two hours..Hollywood figured this out. But, God is not limited by time and space. We see in scripture were it takes months and years and a life time for God to do something. Our life's only run 50,60,70,80, 90 short years .. God's program is a much larger time span. In my search these last 20 years, I have not been able to fit it all in a neat little package. I take what I can and leave the rest till another day. What does not make sense now, does or might later. For those of us coming from deep within Christianity there is a DE- construction, a destroying of false ideals and concepts. During this time I, we and you will experience to some degree based on our own personalities and temperaments a sense of loss, an uncertainty about everything, a fear of dieing and going to hell. Then the flight or fight part of us kicks in and we want to run away and forget it all. Religion is so screwed up I just want to live my life and forget it.. We scream to the heavens. "kill then all and let God sort it out". Then the fight part takes over.. We want to fight.. Southern slang - Whoop the devil out of somebody. The church, the preacher.. We don't care. We realized we have been lied to and we are mad.. Upset. emotionally just destroyed. But the master is working this all out and my life is just a small part of his master plan. One of my teachers, said this path is not for lazy people, it takes work, sweat, toll and tears to study and slowly try to correct our understanding as we journey back to the ancients. Have you ever rejoiced and been flooded with peace and happiness as you saw a truth in scripture, or learned something that caused you to weep and cry like you had just received a phone call of the death of a loved one. I will never know it all, but my faith is in YHVH, Our creator. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Don't just take something because someone you respect says it.. It must make rational, logical sense to you. And then be tied to the foundation of Torah. My view point.. There are two(2) kinds of people in the world. Abrahams children(12 tribes) yes, Abraham had children who were not of these 12 tribes, and gentiles = everyone else. God separated the children of Israel and they are not to be numbered with the nations. Who are they? We may know some, we may think we know a lot, but ultimately God known's who each of us are. In the end he will separate the sheep form the goats.. or is that goats from the sheep? He will place us with the standard we are to stand with. A point to ponder on the Talmud... Without a Rabbi to teach us, we can only gleam just so much. In my understanding there is a mind set / understanding you have to have to understand what the Talmud teaches. To just go to it and read like you would any other book will leave you miss understanding most of what you read!. So. I personally respect it but find much that is hard to understand. Do I toss it out like so many, NO! Why? It is my understanding that during the second temple time period their were many different sects, we have 4 mention in the N.T. Pharisee, Sadducee, essene and those followers of the Nazarene. (trying to recall from memory).. The Pharisee's followed the oral law and the Sadducees' did not take the Oral law. Only the text of the torah. One of the arguments that convinces me we should learn form the oral law is that with out it, we have no understanding of how to observe some of the commandments. Also, if you take a strict reading of the torah(first 5) text you can't find the doctrine of the resurrection.. Which by the way, the Sadducees did not except. So, in my mind there must be more, that helps us understand the ten words, delivered to Moses. I think many of our questions will not be answered till "YHVH returns" as Dr. Tabor stated the other day in a post. But, instead of trying to packaged it in a neat little package, we should be humble and teachable with a meek spirit to learn and follow truth as we find it and come to understand it. The children of Israel told Moses at Sinai. We will do it and we will hear it. What does that mean to me? I will do today what I know today the best I can do, today! I will hear(learn) some more and apply it and tomorrow I will do the best I can today! I enjoy the dialogue. every post. "The Young and the Arrested", shows exactly how God is at work in each of our life's to bring us to were we need to be just at the time we need to be there. Shalom _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/a0929fdb/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Mon Dec 3 20:24:49 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:24:49 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: <00ca01c83614$b4204a40$653c66c9@bettygivin> References: <00ca01c83614$b4204a40$653c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: Well, I would not call myself a gentile, even though I am not Jewish, currently, or anything else besides human. But it would be nice to understand what others mean when they call themselves a gentile, by choice. On Dec 3, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Bonnie, > > Indeed all the terminology can be very confusing because different > people from different groups may have a different view of what a > term actually means. I think you are correct about he etomology of > the word, ?Christ,? I think it comes from the Greek word, > ?Christos,? which I think means anointed. At least we know that > Messiah comes from the Hebrew root, ?to be anointed.? From what > I remember, all the kings were anointed, yet we would not look on > all of them in the present day use of the word, ?Messiah.? I > think going with the dictionary definition is fairly safe. > > > > Personally when I considered myself a Christian, I did not consider > myself to be pagan (in looking back, I certainly engaged in pagan > practices of which I was not aware). But the point is?nor did I > consider other Christians who were a different ?brand? than I > was ?pagan,? just because they did not agree with me. To me, > this may be bordering on name calling and affixing labels where we > need not be affixing labels. Certain practices may be pagan, but > that does not necessarily make the ones who practice them pagan. To > me, paganism falls under the dictionary definition of polytheism, > pantheism, etc., and in our Western culture, is somewhat of a > derogatory name. > > > > This is just my take. > > > > Shalom and Blessings > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 5:19 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread > > > > Betty and Dick, and all, > > I am so far behind in reading these emails, but I hope I will have > time today to begin to catch up and better understand your many > thoughts. Some time ago my Rabbi teacher suggested I read "The > Rise of Christianity," by Friend. After Jesus or Yeshua died this > author talks about several sects and some called themselves Jewish > Christians and some gentile Christians. (And an aside is I think I > remember Jewish followers of Jesus did not believe him to be divine > and did not use the word Christ, which I think comes from a Greek > word.) I don't see how "turning from idols" could be a definition > since Abraham turned from idols, and so I think in Genesis gentile > would have been the idol worshipers. When Jesus was alive I think > the definition of gentile maybe was non-Jew. Today I think some > Christians think of gentile as pagan, and other Christians think of > the Christians as the gentiles. Very confusing. > > > Wikepedia agrees with Betty wth respect to how gentile is most > commonly defined for today's gentile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > Gentile > As in the King James Bible, from the 17th century onwards gentile > was most commonly used to refer to non-Jews. This was in the > context of European Christian societies with a Jewish minority. For > this reason Gentile commonly meant persons brought up in the > Christian faith, as opposed to the adherents of Judaism, and was > not typically used to refer to non-Jews in non-Western cultures. > and a minority view is as a synonym for pagan > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pagan > The term "pagan" is a Christian adaptation of the "gentile" of > Judaism, and as such has an inherent Christian or Abrahamic bias, > and pejorative connotations among Westerners,[2] comparable to > heathen, and infidel, mushrik and kafir (????) in Islam. For > this reason, ethnologists avoid the term "paganism," with its > uncertain and varied meanings, in referring to traditional or > historic faiths, preferring more precise categories such as > polytheism, shamanism, pantheism, or animism. > Shalom, > > Bonnie > > > > On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:36 AM, Dick L wrote: > > > > > I guess I liken a Gentile to be, as it says in Acts-------"Those > who have turned to God from serving Idols". > > I was raised Catholic. They (Catholics) have been removing there > statues from the Churches now. They leave the man on the cross > though. Dick L. > > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread > > > > Hi Betty and Dick, > > It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in > biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it > seems like they are defining it differently. > > Like when Dick said: > > "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily > found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost > Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to > all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there > learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be > something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll > never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love--- > Dick L. > > > > I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be > something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love > listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes > me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert > to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to > be. Confused, > > Shalom, > > Bonnie > > > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > > > > > Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a > Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non- > Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of > course, all can speak for themselves. > > Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the > ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too > much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many > horrific things have been done to them in the name of > Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is > that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found > in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So > many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we > first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the > Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that > once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most > rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that > we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. > > I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. > The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with > Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that > Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to > proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention > that because it just came up. > > Shalom and Blessings to all, > > Betty/Elisheva > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship > with G-d... > > Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 > dictionary definitions? > > 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ > > Function: noun > > Etymology: > > Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens > nation > > Date: > > 14th century > > 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non- > Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew > > 2: heathen, pagan > > 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > > > > > > Hey Dick, > > Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am > content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to > participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion > with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles > to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with > things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the > things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the > Christians any longer. > > My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the > words of encouragement, Dick. > > Shalom, > > Denny > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: > >> Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' >> s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G- >> d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the >> lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do >> not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and >> satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first >> teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The >> Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". >> >> I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the >> Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then >> the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am >> only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. >> >> Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I >> luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me >> a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love >> listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in >> there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try >> to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And >> I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. >> Love---Dick L. >> >> Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... >> >>> Thank you Glenn, >>> >>> I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of >>> such a commitment. >>> >>> Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program >>> on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight >>> I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what >>> the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in >>> efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer >>> and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They >>> were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their >>> leaders. ;-) >>> >>> As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim >>> Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The >>> more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It >>> almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my >>> stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the >>> lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, >>> Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what >>> my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. >>> The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but >>> I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. >>> Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I >>> will listen and learn. >>> >>> Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way >>> around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the >>> likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our >>> relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. >>> >>> Shavua Tov >>> >>> Denny >>> >>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: >>> >>>> Denny, >>>> >>>> I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. >>>> I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are >>>> meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and >>>> beseech Him on your behalf. >>>> >>>> As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank >>>> slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he >>>> spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will >>>> serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has >>>> not been an easy thing... >>>> >>>> I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but >>>> two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. >>>> >>>> Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you >>>> (2) search for Me with all your heart. >>>> >>>> Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, >>>> for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that >>>> (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. >>>> >>>> All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... >>>> >>>> Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and >>>> humbled. >>>> >>>> Glenn >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> > Opinions expressed are mine alone. > > (Unless you happen to agree.) > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/b6157984/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Dec 3 20:54:16 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:54:16 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00fd01c83620$f5aa9630$653c66c9@bettygivin> Bonnie, I wish I had more answers. I remember as a Christian reading the N.T. writings, especially Paul, that he referred to the Jew and the one directly opposite the Jew as the non-Jew as a gentile. Since I reading these texts as a Christian at the time, I was not offended by being referred to as a gentile. To me, a gentile is simply a non-Jew. I think most Jews today see Christians as gentiles or ?goy,? from the nations. But then, they would not refer to Arabs as Gentiles. So it does get confusing. I can see, however, when one grows up as you said you have, without being indoctrinated by mainstream Christianity, that you might not want to refer to yourself as a gentile. I am not sure what you mean when you say a ?gentile, by choice.? Would that be one who is a gentile, or one from the nations (not a born Jew) would choose to stay that way, rather than convert? To me, the term gentile is a very broad term, encompassing many type people, but the key is that they are not Jewish. Beyond that, I don?t see any other label. I am not sure if I am making myself clear. Actually, a human being, created in the image of G-d would be a pretty good label if we need one? Maybe if there are others who call themselves Gentile, by choice, would jump in here and help us out. We all have such varied backgrounds; surely some of you out there have some ideas? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:25 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Well, I would not call myself a gentile, even though I am not Jewish, currently, or anything else besides human. But it would be nice to understand what others mean when they call themselves a gentile, by choice. On Dec 3, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Bonnie, Indeed all the terminology can be very confusing because different people from different groups may have a different view of what a term actually means. I think you are correct about he etomology of the word, ?Christ,? I think it comes from the Greek word, ?Christos,? which I think means anointed. At least we know that Messiah comes from the Hebrew root, ?to be anointed.? From what I remember, all the kings were anointed, yet we would not look on all of them in the present day use of the word, ?Messiah.? I think going with the dictionary definition is fairly safe. Personally when I considered myself a Christian, I did not consider myself to be pagan (in looking back, I certainly engaged in pagan practices of which I was not aware). But the point is?nor did I consider other Christians who were a different ?brand? than I was ?pagan,? just because they did not agree with me. To me, this may be bordering on name calling and affixing labels where we need not be affixing labels. Certain practices may be pagan, but that does not necessarily make the ones who practice them pagan. To me, paganism falls under the dictionary definition of polytheism, pantheism, etc., and in our Western culture, is somewhat of a derogatory name. This is just my take. Shalom and Blessings _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 5:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Betty and Dick, and all, I am so far behind in reading these emails, but I hope I will have time today to begin to catch up and better understand your many thoughts. Some time ago my Rabbi teacher suggested I read "The Rise of Christianity," by Friend. After Jesus or Yeshua died this author talks about several sects and some called themselves Jewish Christians and some gentile Christians. (And an aside is I think I remember Jewish followers of Jesus did not believe him to be divine and did not use the word Christ, which I think comes from a Greek word.) I don't see how "turning from idols" could be a definition since Abraham turned from idols, and so I think in Genesis gentile would have been the idol worshipers. When Jesus was alive I think the definition of gentile maybe was non-Jew. Today I think some Christians think of gentile as pagan, and other Christians think of the Christians as the gentiles. Very confusing. Wikepedia agrees with Betty wth respect to how gentile is most commonly defined for today's gentile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile As in the King James Bible, from the 17th century onwards gentile was most commonly used to refer to non-Jews. This was in the context of European Christian societies with a Jewish minority. For this reason Gentile commonly meant persons brought up in the Christian faith, as opposed to the adherents of Judaism, and was not typically used to refer to non-Jews in non-Western cultures. and a minority view is as a synonym for pagan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pagan The term "pagan" is a Christian adaptation of the " gentile" of Judaism, and as such has an inherent Christian or Abrahamic bias, and pejorative connotations among Westerners, [2] comparable to heathen, and infidel, mushrik and kafir (????) in Islam. For this reason, ethnologists avoid the term "paganism," with its uncertain and varied meanings, in referring to traditional or historic faiths, preferring more precise categories such as polytheism, shamanism, pantheism, or animism. Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:36 AM, Dick L wrote: I guess I liken a Gentile to be, as it says in Acts-------"Those who have turned to God from serving Idols". I was raised Catholic. They (Catholics) have been removing there statues from the Churches now. They leave the man on the cross though. Dick L. Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Hi Betty and Dick, It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it seems like they are defining it differently. Like when Dick said: "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to be. Confused, Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non-Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of course, all can speak for themselves. Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many horrific things have been done to them in the name of Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention that because it just came up. Shalom and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 dictionary definitions? 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2: heathen, pagan 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hey Dick, Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the Christians any longer. My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the words of encouragement, Dick. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G-d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: Denny, I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) search for Me with all your heart. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/9c4df8c7/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 21:13:09 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 21:13:09 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Message-ID: Okay. Carin has to work that night so it will be just me. Ross said the 2 synagogues in BR will be there. Maybe we just need to get there early. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 19:54:56 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Hey John, The observatory is off of Highland Road near Burbank Dr. at a BREC Park....we need to find out if there is limited seating. Lovin' this Dialoging dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:58 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Where is the Highland Observatory? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! ________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/38e73783/attachment.html From info at poweredbyhadavar.com Mon Dec 3 21:15:41 2007 From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:15:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Message-ID: <797930.11127.qm@web1007.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> John, I will be there at 6:30 Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:13:09 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Okay. Carin has to work that night so it will be just me. Ross said the 2 synagogues in BR will be there. Maybe we just need to get there early. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 19:54:56 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Hey John, The observatory is off of Highland Road near Burbank Dr. at a BREC Park....we need to find out if there is limited seating. Lovin' this Dialoging dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:58 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Where is the Highland Observatory? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! ________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/6ae2c92d/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 21:18:03 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 21:18:03 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Message-ID: Okay. We'll hold a place in line for ya. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 21:15:41 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah John, I will be there at 6:30 Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:13:09 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Okay. Carin has to work that night so it will be just me. Ross said the 2 synagogues in BR will be there. Maybe we just need to get there early. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 19:54:56 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Hey John, The observatory is off of Highland Road near Burbank Dr. at a BREC Park....we need to find out if there is limited seating. Lovin' this Dialoging dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:58 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Where is the Highland Observatory? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! ________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/df39589f/attachment.html From info at poweredbyhadavar.com Mon Dec 3 21:30:31 2007 From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:30:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Message-ID: <189115.79979.qm@web1006.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> what time are you getting there John? I can be there at anytime. Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:18:03 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Okay. We'll hold a place in line for ya. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 21:15:41 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah John, I will be there at 6:30 Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:13:09 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Okay. Carin has to work that night so it will be just me. Ross said the 2 synagogues in BR will be there. Maybe we just need to get there early. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 19:54:56 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Hey John, The observatory is off of Highland Road near Burbank Dr. at a BREC Park....we need to find out if there is limited seating. Lovin' this Dialoging dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:58 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Where is the Highland Observatory? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! ________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/71722bae/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 21:44:12 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 21:44:12 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Message-ID: Not sure. I figure 6pm the latest. But I will probably just leave from the synagogue. What do you think? "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 21:30:31 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah what time are you getting there John? I can be there at anytime. Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:18:03 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Okay. We'll hold a place in line for ya. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 21:15:41 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah John, I will be there at 6:30 Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:13:09 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Okay. Carin has to work that night so it will be just me. Ross said the 2 synagogues in BR will be there. Maybe we just need to get there early. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 19:54:56 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Hey John, The observatory is off of Highland Road near Burbank Dr. at a BREC Park....we need to find out if there is limited seating. Lovin' this Dialoging dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:58 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Where is the Highland Observatory? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! ________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/a1832ea8/attachment.html From info at poweredbyhadavar.com Mon Dec 3 21:48:59 2007 From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:48:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Message-ID: <170401.80573.qm@web1001.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> 6pm sounds good, we can talk more at the synagogue. Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:44:12 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Not sure. I figure 6pm the latest. But I will probably just leave from the synagogue. What do you think? "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 21:30:31 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah what time are you getting there John? I can be there at anytime. Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:18:03 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Okay. We'll hold a place in line for ya. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 21:15:41 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah John, I will be there at 6:30 Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:13:09 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Okay. Carin has to work that night so it will be just me. Ross said the 2 synagogues in BR will be there. Maybe we just need to get there early. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 19:54:56 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Hey John, The observatory is off of Highland Road near Burbank Dr. at a BREC Park....we need to find out if there is limited seating. Lovin' this Dialoging dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:58 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Where is the Highland Observatory? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! ________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/1de1b041/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Mon Dec 3 21:51:06 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:51:06 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: <00fd01c83620$f5aa9630$653c66c9@bettygivin> References: <00fd01c83620$f5aa9630$653c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <6AEF5EAC-EC1C-4AE0-9060-1631F7F6035A@alaska.com> Actually it is my understanding that many of the Arabs are Christian and many of those indigenous Arabs are descendants of the Lost Tribes, even though they do not know it because of so much intermarriage. And some Arabs are Jews, because of intermarriage, and conversion especially here in the United States. At least half of my ancestors in Norway probably worshipped multiple Gods, definitely not gentiles. And since I don't believe the OT literally, I doubt my Scandinavian relatives were descended from Adam and Eve let alone Noah or Abraham or Jacob ... too much evidence to the contrary. My Rabbi teacher thinks like me, that it doesn't matter. On Dec 3, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Bonnie, I wish I had more answers. I remember as a Christian > reading the N.T. writings, especially Paul, that he referred to the > Jew and the one directly opposite the Jew as the non-Jew as a > gentile. Since I reading these texts as a Christian at the time, I > was not offended by being referred to as a gentile. To me, a > gentile is simply a non-Jew. I think most Jews today see > Christians as gentiles or ?goy,? from the nations. But then, > they would not refer to Arabs as Gentiles. So it does get confusing. > > > > I can see, however, when one grows up as you said you have, > without being indoctrinated by mainstream Christianity, that you > might not want to refer to yourself as a gentile. I am not sure > what you mean when you say a ?gentile, by choice.? Would that > be one who is a gentile, or one from the nations (not a born Jew) > would choose to stay that way, rather than convert? To me, the > term gentile is a very broad term, encompassing many type people, > but the key is that they are not Jewish. Beyond that, I don?t see > any other label. I am not sure if I am making myself clear. > Actually, a human being, created in the image of G-d would be a > pretty good label if we need one? > > > > Maybe if there are others who call themselves Gentile, by choice, > would jump in here and help us out. We all have such varied > backgrounds; surely some of you out there have some ideas? > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:25 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread > > > > Well, I would not call myself a gentile, even though I am not > Jewish, currently, or anything else besides human. But it would be > nice to understand what others mean when they call themselves a > gentile, by choice. > > On Dec 3, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > > > > > Bonnie, > > Indeed all the terminology can be very confusing because different > people from different groups may have a different view of what a > term actually means. I think you are correct about he etomology of > the word, ?Christ,? I think it comes from the Greek word, > ?Christos,? which I think means anointed. At least we know that > Messiah comes from the Hebrew root, ?to be anointed.? From what > I remember, all the kings were anointed, yet we would not look on > all of them in the present day use of the word, ?Messiah.? I > think going with the dictionary definition is fairly safe. > > > > Personally when I considered myself a Christian, I did not consider > myself to be pagan (in looking back, I certainly engaged in pagan > practices of which I was not aware). But the point is?nor did I > consider other Christians who were a different ?brand? than I > was ?pagan,? just because they did not agree with me. To me, > this may be bordering on name calling and affixing labels where we > need not be affixing labels. Certain practices may be pagan, but > that does not necessarily make the ones who practice them pagan. To > me, paganism falls under the dictionary definition of polytheism, > pantheism, etc., and in our Western culture, is somewhat of a > derogatory name. > > > > This is just my take. > > > > Shalom and Blessings > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 5:19 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread > > > > Betty and Dick, and all, > > I am so far behind in reading these emails, but I hope I will have > time today to begin to catch up and better understand your many > thoughts. Some time ago my Rabbi teacher suggested I read "The > Rise of Christianity," by Friend. After Jesus or Yeshua died this > author talks about several sects and some called themselves Jewish > Christians and some gentile Christians. (And an aside is I think I > remember Jewish followers of Jesus did not believe him to be divine > and did not use the word Christ, which I think comes from a Greek > word.) I don't see how "turning from idols" could be a definition > since Abraham turned from idols, and so I think in Genesis gentile > would have been the idol worshipers. When Jesus was alive I think > the definition of gentile maybe was non-Jew. Today I think some > Christians think of gentile as pagan, and other Christians think of > the Christians as the gentiles. Very confusing. > > > Wikepedia agrees with Betty wth respect to how gentile is most > commonly defined for today's gentile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > Gentile > As in the King James Bible, from the 17th century onwards gentile > was most commonly used to refer to non-Jews. This was in the > context of European Christian societies with a Jewish minority. For > this reason Gentile commonly meant persons brought up in the > Christian faith, as opposed to the adherents of Judaism, and was > not typically used to refer to non-Jews in non-Western cultures. > and a minority view is as a synonym for pagan > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pagan > The term "pagan" is a Christian adaptation of the "gentile" of > Judaism, and as such has an inherent Christian or Abrahamic bias, > and pejorative connotations among Westerners,[2] comparable to > heathen, and infidel, mushrik and kafir (????) in Islam. For > this reason, ethnologists avoid the term "paganism," with its > uncertain and varied meanings, in referring to traditional or > historic faiths, preferring more precise categories such as > polytheism, shamanism, pantheism, or animism. > Shalom, > > Bonnie > > > > On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:36 AM, Dick L wrote: > > > > > > I guess I liken a Gentile to be, as it says in Acts-------"Those > who have turned to God from serving Idols". > > I was raised Catholic. They (Catholics) have been removing there > statues from the Churches now. They leave the man on the cross > though. Dick L. > > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread > > > > Hi Betty and Dick, > > It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in > biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it > seems like they are defining it differently. > > Like when Dick said: > > "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily > found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost > Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to > all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there > learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be > something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll > never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love--- > Dick L. > > > > I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be > something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love > listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes > me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert > to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to > be. Confused, > > Shalom, > > Bonnie > > > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > > > > > > Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a > Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non- > Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of > course, all can speak for themselves. > > Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the > ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too > much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many > horrific things have been done to them in the name of > Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is > that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found > in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So > many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we > first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the > Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that > once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most > rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that > we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. > > I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. > The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with > Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that > Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to > proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention > that because it just came up. > > Shalom and Blessings to all, > > Betty/Elisheva > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship > with G-d... > > Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 > dictionary definitions? > > 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ > > Function: noun > > Etymology: > > Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens > nation > > Date: > > 14th century > > 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non- > Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew > > 2: heathen, pagan > > 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > > > > > > > Hey Dick, > > Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am > content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to > participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion > with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles > to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with > things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the > things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the > Christians any longer. > > My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the > words of encouragement, Dick. > > Shalom, > > Denny > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: > >> Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' >> s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G- >> d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the >> lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do >> not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and >> satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first >> teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The >> Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". >> >> I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the >> Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then >> the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am >> only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. >> >> Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I >> luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me >> a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love >> listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in >> there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try >> to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And >> I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. >> Love---Dick L. >> >> Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... >> >>> Thank you Glenn, >>> >>> I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of >>> such a commitment. >>> >>> Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program >>> on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight >>> I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what >>> the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in >>> efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer >>> and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They >>> were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their >>> leaders. ;-) >>> >>> As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim >>> Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The >>> more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It >>> almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my >>> stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the >>> lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, >>> Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what >>> my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. >>> The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but >>> I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. >>> Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I >>> will listen and learn. >>> >>> Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way >>> around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the >>> likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our >>> relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. >>> >>> Shavua Tov >>> >>> Denny >>> >>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: >>> >>>> Denny, >>>> >>>> I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. >>>> I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are >>>> meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and >>>> beseech Him on your behalf. >>>> >>>> As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank >>>> slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he >>>> spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will >>>> serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has >>>> not been an easy thing... >>>> >>>> I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but >>>> two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. >>>> >>>> Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you >>>> (2) search for Me with all your heart. >>>> >>>> Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, >>>> for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that >>>> (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. >>>> >>>> All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... >>>> >>>> Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and >>>> humbled. >>>> >>>> Glenn >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> > Opinions expressed are mine alone. > > (Unless you happen to agree.) > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/e06ba114/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Mon Dec 3 22:01:25 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 22:01:25 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Message-ID: Okay. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 21:48:59 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah 6pm sounds good, we can talk more at the synagogue. Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:44:12 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Not sure. I figure 6pm the latest. But I will probably just leave from the synagogue. What do you think? "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 21:30:31 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah what time are you getting there John? I can be there at anytime. Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:18:03 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Okay. We'll hold a place in line for ya. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 21:15:41 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah John, I will be there at 6:30 Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "CARLSON, JOHN S" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 9:13:09 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Okay. Carin has to work that night so it will be just me. Ross said the 2 synagogues in BR will be there. Maybe we just need to get there early. "Be excellent to each other" Bill & Ted John C. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon Dec 03 19:54:56 2007 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Hey John, The observatory is off of Highland Road near Burbank Dr. at a BREC Park....we need to find out if there is limited seating. Lovin' this Dialoging dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:58 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah Where is the Highland Observatory? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Moon and the Torah I thought I would send this to the list since it is so slow this morning:) My wife Bridget, passed on something that she found in our local newspaper last night. On Saturday, December 8th at 7 PM, the Highland Observatory will have a free class on "The Moon and the Torah". Professor Brad Schaefer will be the instructor. I hope that all the locals can go. It looks like my entire clan will be there in the front seats. I believe that my oldest son Ty and his wife will be home from college as well and so I am excited about this event! We will give a full report of what we learn. This is definitely an important topic that we should all be interested in learning about. The cycles of the moon play such an integral part in Torah faith. Shalom, Ross ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! ________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/284a486a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Dec 3 22:19:36 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 23:19:36 EST Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Message-ID: Well, having the single most important person in your life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years before, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective on things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel like? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as selfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if mom wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to me, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was not one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat cell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in the hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social dancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was worried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her wig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat morning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! Immediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray hair (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, they would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! Over the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream onto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which was operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell does THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years HaShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to her maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ever had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining that Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was breaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and telling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it would be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). She nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was comforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low box....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that still isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as much as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it forces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you (after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part of the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time when you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent the girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before getting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed that, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days of not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the realization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only extended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a cause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or straightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there was another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every way you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts bouts, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that survives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people were undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the deaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much since those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped me enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to Ephraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and y'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come to understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber Phenomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, I grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted it NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me reappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a demonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What should I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World According to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called Becky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a yo-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I ignored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found that I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair Davidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I volunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it with the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of arguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of Rav) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I doing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, and then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from the Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one Jewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best used bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I mean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, all the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, sometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in friendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. With my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make Charlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes spins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to throw myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones around seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope the UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in some manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that I am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on this list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with love in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, that resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is finishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at Midreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in Hebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared many personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet the right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and raise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! She's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in the so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing Sherut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she is in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if you ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the Judean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go on Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what he's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the girls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go to Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an Israeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex for the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know :-) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the King of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, particularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My arms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of you, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple Mount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut shell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/eed87555/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Dec 3 22:22:43 2007 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 23:22:43 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] We will do it, We will hear it! In-Reply-To: <00ec01c83619$fb76fa60$653c66c9@bettygivin> References: <00ec01c83619$fb76fa60$653c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <000001c8362d$532bd970$0200a8c0@marvin> Betty and James, Thank you for your kind words, Betty. Hopefully we shall meet sometime in the future. Thank you also, James. I often think of our trip to Israel together and that short walk out into the desert some in the group took with the full moon shinning, down by the Dead Sea and we could see the lights of Jericho off in the distance. It was a beautiful night to be in God's country. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:04 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] RE: [Dialogue] We will do it, We will hear it! Marvin, I don't think I have ever had the pleasure of meeting you personally, but I am with James here. Your post is full of much wisdom. Thank-you for sharing your insights and gleanings thru the years. Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:21 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] We will do it, We will hear it! Marvin and I go back a long, long, way and I just want to thank him for this thoughtful post, so full of the wisdom that comes with living and walking with God. James On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:37 AM, mhyde wrote: As I read the letters of each of us, I see where God is working in all of our life's, It's just a little different but still almost the same for each of us. I noticed years ago, when reading the Bible, looking at the stories of the characters there, that they were struggling with earthly things just like we do, but they were focused on God and we all know that God is focused on each of us, his children. Abraham our father, was a friend to God - Such a special relationship - can we fathom what this means? One of the things I think we fell to see as we read the text of the Torah and Prophets is that these people were human. They struggled everyday with earthly things... wife's, husbands, relationships, jobs, neighbor's, children, sick children, sick animals, crops that might not come in, shortage of food in the house, bills to be paid, old and sick parents, dieing siblings.. What we call life. When I was a young man - I could run all day, work 5 men my equals into the ground, In my minds eye, I could see myself standing with King David, fighting and killing Philistines, taking back the land... My father told the story of how I would retell the bible stories, as a young child, I learned in Sunday school class with such vividness, excitement and awareness, as if I was telling something I had experienced and lived instead of a story I was told by a dear old sainted Grandmother in Sunday school. My father is gone now, but I bet he was so proud as we parents are wont to be, when we watch our children, as I screamed, ran around and waved my arms as - we parted the Red Sea, slew goliath and hacked off his head or took the city as the walls came down at Jericho. Was I just being a kid.., this thing today, something else next week, teenage years and girls and cars... no time for God. God was doing something in me at an early age, that I will not live long enough to get over... If you understand what I mean. I think each of us have a similar story or feeling , a spiritual tie that binds us to Our creator, something we can't put our finger on but we know it is there and we search, look and live our life's as best we can with God always standing just in our shadow, always leading and guiding us to were we need to come. Jer 29:13 And ye shall seeke me, and finde me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. My opinion... we as humans like everything neatly packaged, wrapped up with a bow and the tell me the whole story from start to finish in 45 minutes. At most within two hours..Hollywood figured this out. But, God is not limited by time and space. We see in scripture were it takes months and years and a life time for God to do something. Our life's only run 50,60,70,80, 90 short years .. God's program is a much larger time span. In my search these last 20 years, I have not been able to fit it all in a neat little package. I take what I can and leave the rest till another day. What does not make sense now, does or might later. For those of us coming from deep within Christianity there is a DE- construction, a destroying of false ideals and concepts. During this time I, we and you will experience to some degree based on our own personalities and temperaments a sense of loss, an uncertainty about everything, a fear of dieing and going to hell. Then the flight or fight part of us kicks in and we want to run away and forget it all. Religion is so screwed up I just want to live my life and forget it.. We scream to the heavens. "kill then all and let God sort it out". Then the fight part takes over.. We want to fight.. Southern slang - Whoop the devil out of somebody. The church, the preacher.. We don't care. We realized we have been lied to and we are mad.. Upset. emotionally just destroyed. But the master is working this all out and my life is just a small part of his master plan. One of my teachers, said this path is not for lazy people, it takes work, sweat, toll and tears to study and slowly try to correct our understanding as we journey back to the ancients. Have you ever rejoiced and been flooded with peace and happiness as you saw a truth in scripture, or learned something that caused you to weep and cry like you had just received a phone call of the death of a loved one. I will never know it all, but my faith is in YHVH, Our creator. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Don't just take something because someone you respect says it.. It must make rational, logical sense to you. And then be tied to the foundation of Torah. My view point.. There are two(2) kinds of people in the world. Abrahams children(12 tribes) yes, Abraham had children who were not of these 12 tribes, and gentiles = everyone else. God separated the children of Israel and they are not to be numbered with the nations. Who are they? We may know some, we may think we know a lot, but ultimately God known's who each of us are. In the end he will separate the sheep form the goats.. or is that goats from the sheep? He will place us with the standard we are to stand with. A point to ponder on the Talmud... Without a Rabbi to teach us, we can only gleam just so much. In my understanding there is a mind set / understanding you have to have to understand what the Talmud teaches. To just go to it and read like you would any other book will leave you miss understanding most of what you read!. So. I personally respect it but find much that is hard to understand. Do I toss it out like so many, NO! Why? It is my understanding that during the second temple time period their were many different sects, we have 4 mention in the N.T. Pharisee, Sadducee, essene and those followers of the Nazarene. (trying to recall from memory).. The Pharisee's followed the oral law and the Sadducees' did not take the Oral law. Only the text of the torah. One of the arguments that convinces me we should learn form the oral law is that with out it, we have no understanding of how to observe some of the commandments. Also, if you take a strict reading of the torah(first 5) text you can't find the doctrine of the resurrection.. Which by the way, the Sadducees did not except. So, in my mind there must be more, that helps us understand the ten words, delivered to Moses. I think many of our questions will not be answered till "YHVH returns" as Dr. Tabor stated the other day in a post. But, instead of trying to packaged it in a neat little package, we should be humble and teachable with a meek spirit to learn and follow truth as we find it and come to understand it. The children of Israel told Moses at Sinai. We will do it and we will hear it. What does that mean to me? I will do today what I know today the best I can do, today! I will hear(learn) some more and apply it and tomorrow I will do the best I can today! I enjoy the dialogue. every post. "The Young and the Arrested", shows exactly how God is at work in each of our life's to bring us to were we need to be just at the time we need to be there. Shalom _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/c719cc39/attachment.html From kim.alvarado at charter.net Mon Dec 3 22:37:45 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:37:45 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071203233745.SZTOJ.225297.root@fepweb05> In Gen. 25 we are told that Abraham sent away the sons of the concubines from his son Issac to the land of the east. We are told that Ismael's sons dwelt opposite Egypt towards Assyria. I think that there is/was land set aside for them, but not, I feel, in the land of Israel, especially where Jerusalem (the capital of the Southern Kingdom) is concerned. That being said, I have also heard that one day just as Ismael and Issac came together to bury Abraham and later Esau and Jacob came together to bury Issac, the two nations will come together in peace. Another point to consider is that the current boundaries of the State of Israel are nowhere close to the boundaries given in the Torah. I believe that the land won in 1967 was won by Ha Shem fighting for His people. Loving this dialogue group, Kim ---- Dick L wrote: ============= Very interesting Subject? But in Gen:21: 10 The son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with my son--Issac. 21:12 in Issac shall thy seed be called. Seems as if this means the Arabs do NOT have a part in the inheritance of Israel??? Just my thought. Dick L. There is more----but I'll leave it to the experts. Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Ross, Here is what I got from my Christian teacher about how the prophesies may pertain to the state of Israel today and in response to your post on your ROF Lesson for November. I would appreciate your response as I am a beginner at this but trying hard to understand what is for me overwhelming. Thank you for this open forum and "big tent" dialogue about critical issues in critical times. Bonnie Bonnie: My take on this subject follows. In my opinion, those who believe that the fulfillment of the prophecies of Joel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, are to be found in today's State of Israel are misinterpreting the meanings of 'Judah' and 'Israel.' The time spoken of by Joel 3, for example, lists both Judah and Israel but does so from a different standpoint than is typically interpreted. KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of JUDAH and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage ISRAEL, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. Those prophets were living during the period of the Divided Kingdoms of Judah and Israel, i.e., long after the death of Solomon. To those prophets, 'JUDAH' referred to the Southern Kingdom that included primarily the tribe of Judah, the small tribe of Benjamin and a smattering of the remains of the tribe of Simeon [the majority of Simeon failed to defeat the Edomites (descendants of Esau) and assimilated with them. Today, those Israelites are part of the 'Arabs' in and around Israel and those descendants of Simeon do not even know they are Israelites. Many would be horrified to find that they were!]. In those prophets' times, the Northern Kingdom of Israel essentially had no religion. Jereboam who became the first king of ISRAEL (which included the other 9 tribes) refused to allow the people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel to go to the Temple in Jerusalem. For the most part, they took up the worship of the pagan gods of the Canaanites. There was a stressful period of better than 200 years with the two kingdoms--the Northern Kingdom refusing to worship God at all (the 'faithless Israel' Jer 3:6) and 'unfaithful Judah' based in Jerusalem (Jer 3:7) frequently setting aside their worship of God by also sacrificing to heathen idols. One key thing to note here, is the distinction between 'faithless Israel' versus 'unfaithful Judah.' By 722 BCE, the Northern Kingdom of ISRAEL had been taken captive by the Assyrians and scattered throughout the Assyrian empire. Those nine tribes are part of the 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.' (The other lost tribe was Simeon as above.) For roughly 150 years, the Southern Kingdom of 'Judah' was all that remained of the identifiable 12 Tribes of Israel. Then, during the time of Jeremiah, Solomon's Temple was destroyed when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 585 BCE. The tribe of Judah was then carried off to Babylonian captivity for about 70 years. Under Ezra and Nehemiah a group of those captive 'Jews' returned to Jerusalem where they rebuilt the city walls and erected the Second Temple--roughly about 500 BCE. SO, when those prophets spoke of 'JUDAH' they were talking about the people that became known as the 'Jews.' The rest of the tribes of Israel were never called 'Jews.' When the prophets spoke of 'ISRAEL' they were talking about the people who were taken into captivity but who had lost their identities as descendants of Abraham (actually Israel==Jacob). So, in Joel 3:1, the prophet is speaking of the coming Babylonian captivity which dealt only with Judah and Jerusalem. In Joel 3:2 notice that Israel is the scattered portion. KJV Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. It is essential to recognize the difference between Judah and Israel to make sense of these prophecies. The opinion that the prophets' use of 'Israel' to mean the 'Jews' of today is very shaky in my opinion. The references to Israel returning and occupying the land in peace has NOT YET COME TO PASS. I believe it WILL happen, but not yet. The first return of 'Jews' (Judah) as we see it today may well be the first stages of the process of Israel (the other tribes) returning. BUT FIRST, the descendants of the 'lost' Israel must be identified and desire to return to the Holy Land. Personally, I think the current geneticists' work on studying DNA will eventually give us an identity marker to identify all Israelites. But to say that the land was promised to the 'Jews' is misleading. God's promise is to ALL the descendants of Israel to INCLUDE the Jews but it is not to be limited to them. As a matter of fact, God's promise given to Abraham HAS BEEN FULFILLED for many centuries. [Gen 15:18] On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-- Abraham's descendants included Ishmael, Esau, [Gen 25:1] After Sarah's death, Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah. She bore him SIX more sons. [Gen 25:2] She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. ALL of them produced descendants that settled in that region between the Nile and the Euphrates! They are still there and we often call them 'Arabs.' That land belongs to ALL of them in accordance with God's promise to Abraham. They just need to learn to share it peaceably. Maybe something positive CAN come of the Annapolis Summit!! Shalom, Blair > > ============= > Shalom to all! > > > > This week I have been flooded with insights while preparing my lesson. > I simply can't wait until this Saturday morning's class. We are living > in exciting times. This week, while leaders from all over the world > convened in Annapolis, Maryland to discuss among other things, the > future of Jerusalem, I have been busy studying what God's word has to > say about it. > > > > You shouldn't be surprised to find out that there is a great difference > between what various political leaders have in mind and what God sets > forth in the Bible through His prophets. > > > > You may however be surprised to learn that the ancient Triennial cycle > reading from the Law and the Prophets to be read this Saturday, speaks > directly about this subject. > > > > In this week's Torah reading (Genesis 12 and 13) as well as the > Prophets reading (Joshua 24) we read very clearly that God gave the > land of Israel to Abram and his seed, specifically through Isaac and > Jacob. > > > > In my estimation, the return of the Jewish people to the land promised > to the patriarchs in our day, is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. > This return of Israel to the "promised land" is perhaps the most > prominent theme in the Hebrew Prophets, mentioned in over 40 major > sections of the texts. As I have pointed out before, God's restoration > of Israel to the promised land is the one thing that He will do with > "all His heart and all His soul" - Jeremiah 32:41. > > > > One should take note that God calls this small and highly contested > land - "my land" in Joel 3:2. Jews, Christians and Moslems all lay > claim to it in all or in part, but this week's class will make clear > that the "title / deed" was promised by God to a single family - > Israel! > > > > It is commonly referred to today as the "Holy Land". (See Zechariah > 2:13 for the one time in the Bible where this name is used to refer to > "the Land" of Israel). > > > > In my studies this week I found one passage to be most incredible. > Popular translations don't do justice to this passage and so I have > translated it myself in order to render it more closely to the original > Hebrew. It may seem awkward in English, but this literal rendering is > much better I think. In Deuteronomy 11:12 we find that this land is; > > > > "a land which the LORD your God searches her continually: the eyes of > the LORD are on her, from the beginning of the year and until the end > of the year." > > > > Think about that! Can you imagine God searching this land continually > throughout the year with His eyes? The image I get is of a guard > looking up and down this strip of land from a strategic viewpoint! > > > > Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel had to > say about the subject that they now consider. > > > > In the third chapter of Joel we read: > > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall > bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather > all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage > Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my > land. > > > > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all nations is > brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on "in the > news". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ From b.nelson at alaska.com Mon Dec 3 22:47:21 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:47:21 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson In-Reply-To: <20071203233745.SZTOJ.225297.root@fepweb05> References: <20071203233745.SZTOJ.225297.root@fepweb05> Message-ID: <286217DF-F71A-464D-B665-991A0BDB48A5@alaska.com> Hi Kim, I also believe they will come together in peace. At least they have agreed to talk every 2 weeks. I hope Condoliza Rice and George Bush succeed in mediating. Bonnie On Dec 3, 2007, at 7:37 PM, kim.alvarado at charter.net wrote: > In Gen. 25 we are told that Abraham sent away the sons of the > concubines from his son Issac to the land of the east. We are told > that Ismael's sons dwelt opposite Egypt towards Assyria. I think > that there is/was land set aside for them, but not, I feel, in the > land of Israel, especially where Jerusalem (the capital of the > Southern Kingdom) is concerned. That being said, I have also heard > that one day just as Ismael and Issac came together to bury Abraham > and later Esau and Jacob came together to bury Issac, the two > nations will come together in peace. > > Another point to consider is that the current boundaries of the > State of Israel are nowhere close to the boundaries given in the > Torah. I believe that the land won in 1967 was won by Ha Shem > fighting for His people. > > Loving this dialogue group, > Kim > > ---- Dick L wrote: > > ============= > Very interesting Subject? But in Gen:21: 10 The son of the > bondwoman shall not be heir with my son--Issac. 21:12 in Issac > shall thy seed be called. Seems as if this means the Arabs do NOT > have a part in the inheritance of Israel??? > Just my thought. Dick L. There is more----but I'll leave it > to the experts. > Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson > > > Ross, > Here is what I got from my Christian teacher about how the > prophesies may pertain to the state of Israel today and in response > to your post on your ROF Lesson for November. I would appreciate > your response as I am a beginner at this but trying hard to > understand what is for me overwhelming. Thank you for this open > forum and "big tent" dialogue about critical issues in critical times. > Bonnie > > > > > Bonnie: > > > My take on this subject follows. > > > In my opinion, those who believe that the fulfillment of the > prophecies of Joel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, are to be found in today's > State of Israel are misinterpreting the meanings of 'Judah' and > 'Israel.' > > > The time spoken of by Joel 3, for example, lists both Judah > and Israel but does so from a different standpoint than is > typically interpreted. > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, > when I shall bring again the captivity of JUDAH and Jerusalem, 2 I > will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the > valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people > and for my heritage ISRAEL, whom they have scattered among the > nations, and parted my land. > > > Those prophets were living during the period of the Divided > Kingdoms of Judah and Israel, i.e., long after the death of > Solomon. To those prophets, 'JUDAH' referred to the Southern > Kingdom that included primarily the tribe of Judah, the small tribe > of Benjamin and a smattering of the remains of the tribe of Simeon > [the majority of Simeon failed to defeat the Edomites (descendants > of Esau) and assimilated with them. Today, those Israelites are > part of the 'Arabs' in and around Israel and those descendants of > Simeon do not even know they are Israelites. Many would be > horrified to find that they were!]. > > > In those prophets' times, the Northern Kingdom of Israel > essentially had no religion. Jereboam who became the first king of > ISRAEL (which included the other 9 tribes) refused to allow the > people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel to go to the Temple in > Jerusalem. For the most part, they took up the worship of the > pagan gods of the Canaanites. There was a stressful period of > better than 200 years with the two kingdoms--the Northern Kingdom > refusing to worship God at all (the 'faithless Israel' Jer 3:6) and > 'unfaithful Judah' based in Jerusalem (Jer 3:7) frequently setting > aside their worship of God by also sacrificing to heathen idols. > One key thing to note here, is the distinction between 'faithless > Israel' versus 'unfaithful Judah.' > > > By 722 BCE, the Northern Kingdom of ISRAEL had been taken > captive by the Assyrians and scattered throughout the Assyrian > empire. Those nine tribes are part of the 'Ten Lost Tribes of > Israel.' (The other lost tribe was Simeon as above.) For roughly > 150 years, the Southern Kingdom of 'Judah' was all that remained of > the identifiable 12 Tribes of Israel. > > > Then, during the time of Jeremiah, Solomon's Temple was > destroyed when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 585 BCE. The > tribe of Judah was then carried off to Babylonian captivity for > about 70 years. Under Ezra and Nehemiah a group of those captive > 'Jews' returned to Jerusalem where they rebuilt the city walls and > erected the Second Temple--roughly about 500 BCE. > > > SO, when those prophets spoke of 'JUDAH' they were talking > about the people that became known as the 'Jews.' The rest of the > tribes of Israel were never called 'Jews.' > > > When the prophets spoke of 'ISRAEL' they were talking about > the people who were taken into captivity but who had lost their > identities as descendants of Abraham (actually Israel==Jacob). > > > So, in Joel 3:1, the prophet is speaking of the coming > Babylonian captivity which dealt only with Judah and Jerusalem. In > Joel 3:2 notice that Israel is the scattered portion. > > > KJV Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring > them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them > there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have > scattered among the nations, and parted my land. > > > It is essential to recognize the difference between Judah and > Israel to make sense of these prophecies. The opinion that the > prophets' use of 'Israel' to mean the 'Jews' of today is very shaky > in my opinion. > > > The references to Israel returning and occupying the land in > peace has NOT YET COME TO PASS. I believe it WILL happen, but not > yet. The first return of 'Jews' (Judah) as we see it today may > well be the first stages of the process of Israel (the other > tribes) returning. BUT FIRST, the descendants of the 'lost' Israel > must be identified and desire to return to the Holy Land. > Personally, I think the current geneticists' work on studying DNA > will eventually give us an identity marker to identify all Israelites. > > > But to say that the land was promised to the 'Jews' is > misleading. God's promise is to ALL the descendants of Israel to > INCLUDE the Jews but it is not to be limited to them. > > > As a matter of fact, God's promise given to Abraham HAS BEEN > FULFILLED for many centuries. > > > [Gen 15:18] On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram > and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of > Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-- > > > Abraham's descendants included Ishmael, Esau, [Gen 25:1] > After Sarah's death, Abraham took another wife, whose name was > Keturah. She bore him SIX more sons. > > > [Gen 25:2] She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, > Ishbak and Shuah. > > > ALL of them produced descendants that settled in that region > between the Nile and the Euphrates! They are still there and we > often call them 'Arabs.' That land belongs to ALL of them in > accordance with God's promise to Abraham. > > > They just need to learn to share it peaceably. Maybe > something positive CAN come of the Annapolis Summit!! > > > Shalom, > Blair > > > > > >> >> ============= >> Shalom to all! >> >> >> >> This week I have been flooded with insights while preparing my >> lesson. >> I simply can't wait until this Saturday morning's class. We are >> living >> in exciting times. This week, while leaders from all over the world >> convened in Annapolis, Maryland to discuss among other things, the >> future of Jerusalem, I have been busy studying what God's word has to >> say about it. >> >> >> >> You shouldn't be surprised to find out that there is a great >> difference >> between what various political leaders have in mind and what God sets >> forth in the Bible through His prophets. >> >> >> >> You may however be surprised to learn that the ancient Triennial >> cycle >> reading from the Law and the Prophets to be read this Saturday, >> speaks >> directly about this subject. >> >> >> >> In this week's Torah reading (Genesis 12 and 13) as well as the >> Prophets reading (Joshua 24) we read very clearly that God gave the >> land of Israel to Abram and his seed, specifically through Isaac and >> Jacob. >> >> >> >> In my estimation, the return of the Jewish people to the land >> promised >> to the patriarchs in our day, is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. >> This return of Israel to the "promised land" is perhaps the most >> prominent theme in the Hebrew Prophets, mentioned in over 40 major >> sections of the texts. As I have pointed out before, God's >> restoration >> of Israel to the promised land is the one thing that He will do with >> "all His heart and all His soul" - Jeremiah 32:41. >> >> >> >> One should take note that God calls this small and highly contested >> land - "my land" in Joel 3:2. Jews, Christians and Moslems all lay >> claim to it in all or in part, but this week's class will make clear >> that the "title / deed" was promised by God to a single family - >> Israel! >> >> >> >> It is commonly referred to today as the "Holy Land". (See Zechariah >> 2:13 for the one time in the Bible where this name is used to >> refer to >> "the Land" of Israel). >> >> >> >> In my studies this week I found one passage to be most incredible. >> Popular translations don't do justice to this passage and so I have >> translated it myself in order to render it more closely to the >> original >> Hebrew. It may seem awkward in English, but this literal rendering is >> much better I think. In Deuteronomy 11:12 we find that this land is; >> >> >> >> "a land which the LORD your God searches her continually: the eyes of >> the LORD are on her, from the beginning of the year and until the end >> of the year." >> >> >> >> Think about that! Can you imagine God searching this land continually >> throughout the year with His eyes? The image I get is of a guard >> looking up and down this strip of land from a strategic viewpoint! >> >> >> >> Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme >> importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I >> only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, >> participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic >> heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or >> synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would >> especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel >> had to >> say about the subject that they now consider. >> >> >> >> In the third chapter of Joel we read: >> >> >> >> KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I >> shall >> bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also >> gather >> all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, >> and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage >> Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my >> land. >> >> >> >> The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It >> means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all >> nations is >> brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY >> land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on >> "in the >> news". >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ From kim.alvarado at charter.net Mon Dec 3 22:56:48 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:56:48 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071203235648.DY7MW.225977.root@fepweb05> Hanoch, Just finished reading 6,7,8, and last. Incredible! I can totally relate, being 40ish and knowing you should be doing ""something", but not sure what...feeling you have missed the boat. I guess all there is to do is just keep moving forward, seeking Him with all our hearts. One thing to consider, if you had made Aliyah some 20 years ago, you would not be here for us now. Perhaps your "something" is as simple as being here for us, writing your story. I know how much your words have meant to me. Kim ---- YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: ============= Well, having the single most important person in your life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years before, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective on things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel like? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as selfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if mom wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to me, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was not one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat cell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in the hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social dancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was worried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her wig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat morning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! Immediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray hair (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, they would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! Over the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream onto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which was operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell does THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years HaShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to her maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ever had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining that Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was breaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and telling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it would be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). She nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was comforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low box....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that still isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as much as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it forces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you (after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part of the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time when you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent the girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before getting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed that, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days of not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the realization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only extended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a cause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or straightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there was another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every way you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts bouts, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that survives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people were undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the deaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much since those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped me enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to Ephraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and y'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come to understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber Phenomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, I grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted it NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me reappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a demonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What should I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World According to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called Becky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a yo-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I ignored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found that I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair Davidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I volunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it with the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of arguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of Rav) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I doing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, and then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from the Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one Jewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best used bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I mean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, all the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, sometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in friendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. With my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make Charlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes spins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to throw myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones around seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope the UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in some manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that I am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on this list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with love in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, that resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is finishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at Midreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in Hebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared many personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet the right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and raise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! She's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in the so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing Sherut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she is in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if you ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the Judean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go on Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what he's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the girls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go to Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an Israeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex for the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know :-) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the King of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, particularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My arms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of you, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple Mount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut shell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 23:17:24 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 00:17:24 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Message-ID: Hanoch, a Convert friend of mine, Grace (Chen) Gault sent me this attachment this evening. As I read it, I thought of you. It's taken from the Jerusalem Post Health and Sci-Tech section, and involves physical therapy as a cure/deterrent for cancer. If I've understood you correctly, this may be right up your alley! I just thought that it may be a way for you to get to the Land immediately. Let me know what you think, please. Of course UIWU starting a group over there sounds even better!!! ~ Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.comDate: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 23:19:36 -0500To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Well, having the single most important person in your life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years before, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective on things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel like? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as selfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if mom wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to me, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was not one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat cell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in the hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social dancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was worried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her wig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat morning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! Immediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray hair (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, they would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! Over the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream onto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which was operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell does THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years HaShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to her maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ever had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining that Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. 'If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital' My heart was breaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and telling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it would be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). She nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was comforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low box....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that still isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as much as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it forces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you (after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part of the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time when you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent the girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before getting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed that, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days of not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the realization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only extended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a cause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or straightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there was another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every way you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts bouts, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that survives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people were undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the deaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much since those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped me enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to Ephraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and y'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come to understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber Phenomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, I grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted it NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me reappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a demonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What should I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ('The World According to Hanoch')? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called Becky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a yo-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I ignored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found that I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair Davidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I volunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it with the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of arguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of Rav) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I doing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, and then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from the Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one Jewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best used bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I mean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, all the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, sometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in friendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. With my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make Charlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes spins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to throw myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones around seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope the UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in some manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that I am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on this list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with love in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, that resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is finishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at Midreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in Hebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared many personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet the right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and raise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal 'mini-me' looks just like me - just a better looking version! She's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in the so-called 'West Bank'). She returned to Israel this year and is doing Sherut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she is in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if you ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the Judean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go on Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what he's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the girls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go to Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an Israeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex for the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know :-) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the King of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, particularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My arms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of you, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple Mount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut shell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/dbf6a549/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Walk Away From Cancer - Jer.Post.wps Type: application/octet-stream Size: 40448 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/dbf6a549/attachment.obj From b.nelson at alaska.com Tue Dec 4 00:00:29 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:00:29 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson In-Reply-To: <20071203233745.SZTOJ.225297.root@fepweb05> References: <20071203233745.SZTOJ.225297.root@fepweb05> Message-ID: <34470982-F1EE-4D3D-B851-3122D8130924@alaska.com> My Rabbi teacher says I can quote him about Saladin in Palestine in the 12th century. "Saladin forced the indigenous Jews to convert to Islam to create a unity of belief within his community. The Crusaders, however, murdered both Jews and Moslems as infidels, non-believers. When the Christians forced non-Christians to convert, they still monitored them closely to make sure that the converts were practicing ?correct? Christianity and not secret Jewish, or Moslem, practices." and also "They were indigenous Jews. It is no accident that the Arab Palestinians and the Sephardic Jews of Palestine have the same exact DNA sequence. They are one and the same people." Shlom, Bonnie Hi Kim, I also believe they will come together in peace. At least they have agreed to talk every 2 weeks. I hope Condoliza Rice and George Bush succeed in mediating. Bonnie On Dec 3, 2007, at 7:37 PM, kim.alvarado at charter.net wrote: > In Gen. 25 we are told that Abraham sent away the sons of the > concubines from his son Issac to the land of the east. We are told > that Ismael's sons dwelt opposite Egypt towards Assyria. I think > that there is/was land set aside for them, but not, I feel, in the > land of Israel, especially where Jerusalem (the capital of the > Southern Kingdom) is concerned. That being said, I have also heard > that one day just as Ismael and Issac came together to bury Abraham > and later Esau and Jacob came together to bury Issac, the two > nations will come together in peace. > > Another point to consider is that the current boundaries of the > State of Israel are nowhere close to the boundaries given in the > Torah. I believe that the land won in 1967 was won by Ha Shem > fighting for His people. > > Loving this dialogue group, > Kim > > ---- Dick L wrote: > > ============= > Very interesting Subject? But in Gen:21: 10 The son of the > bondwoman shall not be heir with my son--Issac. 21:12 in Issac > shall thy seed be called. Seems as if this means the Arabs do NOT > have a part in the inheritance of Israel??? > Just my thought. Dick L. There is more----but I'll leave it > to the experts. > Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson > > > Ross, > Here is what I got from my Christian teacher about how the > prophesies may pertain to the state of Israel today and in response > to your post on your ROF Lesson for November. I would appreciate > your response as I am a beginner at this but trying hard to > understand what is for me overwhelming. Thank you for this open > forum and "big tent" dialogue about critical issues in critical times. > Bonnie > > > > > Bonnie: > > > My take on this subject follows. > > > In my opinion, those who believe that the fulfillment of the > prophecies of Joel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, are to be found in today's > State of Israel are misinterpreting the meanings of 'Judah' and > 'Israel.' > > > The time spoken of by Joel 3, for example, lists both Judah > and Israel but does so from a different standpoint than is > typically interpreted. > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, > when I shall bring again the captivity of JUDAH and Jerusalem, 2 I > will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the > valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people > and for my heritage ISRAEL, whom they have scattered among the > nations, and parted my land. > > > Those prophets were living during the period of the Divided > Kingdoms of Judah and Israel, i.e., long after the death of > Solomon. To those prophets, 'JUDAH' referred to the Southern > Kingdom that included primarily the tribe of Judah, the small tribe > of Benjamin and a smattering of the remains of the tribe of Simeon > [the majority of Simeon failed to defeat the Edomites (descendants > of Esau) and assimilated with them. Today, those Israelites are > part of the 'Arabs' in and around Israel and those descendants of > Simeon do not even know they are Israelites. Many would be > horrified to find that they were!]. > > > In those prophets' times, the Northern Kingdom of Israel > essentially had no religion. Jereboam who became the first king of > ISRAEL (which included the other 9 tribes) refused to allow the > people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel to go to the Temple in > Jerusalem. For the most part, they took up the worship of the > pagan gods of the Canaanites. There was a stressful period of > better than 200 years with the two kingdoms--the Northern Kingdom > refusing to worship God at all (the 'faithless Israel' Jer 3:6) and > 'unfaithful Judah' based in Jerusalem (Jer 3:7) frequently setting > aside their worship of God by also sacrificing to heathen idols. > One key thing to note here, is the distinction between 'faithless > Israel' versus 'unfaithful Judah.' > > > By 722 BCE, the Northern Kingdom of ISRAEL had been taken > captive by the Assyrians and scattered throughout the Assyrian > empire. Those nine tribes are part of the 'Ten Lost Tribes of > Israel.' (The other lost tribe was Simeon as above.) For roughly > 150 years, the Southern Kingdom of 'Judah' was all that remained of > the identifiable 12 Tribes of Israel. > > > Then, during the time of Jeremiah, Solomon's Temple was > destroyed when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 585 BCE. The > tribe of Judah was then carried off to Babylonian captivity for > about 70 years. Under Ezra and Nehemiah a group of those captive > 'Jews' returned to Jerusalem where they rebuilt the city walls and > erected the Second Temple--roughly about 500 BCE. > > > SO, when those prophets spoke of 'JUDAH' they were talking > about the people that became known as the 'Jews.' The rest of the > tribes of Israel were never called 'Jews.' > > > When the prophets spoke of 'ISRAEL' they were talking about > the people who were taken into captivity but who had lost their > identities as descendants of Abraham (actually Israel==Jacob). > > > So, in Joel 3:1, the prophet is speaking of the coming > Babylonian captivity which dealt only with Judah and Jerusalem. In > Joel 3:2 notice that Israel is the scattered portion. > > > KJV Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring > them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them > there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have > scattered among the nations, and parted my land. > > > It is essential to recognize the difference between Judah and > Israel to make sense of these prophecies. The opinion that the > prophets' use of 'Israel' to mean the 'Jews' of today is very shaky > in my opinion. > > > The references to Israel returning and occupying the land in > peace has NOT YET COME TO PASS. I believe it WILL happen, but not > yet. The first return of 'Jews' (Judah) as we see it today may > well be the first stages of the process of Israel (the other > tribes) returning. BUT FIRST, the descendants of the 'lost' Israel > must be identified and desire to return to the Holy Land. > Personally, I think the current geneticists' work on studying DNA > will eventually give us an identity marker to identify all Israelites. > > > But to say that the land was promised to the 'Jews' is > misleading. God's promise is to ALL the descendants of Israel to > INCLUDE the Jews but it is not to be limited to them. > > > As a matter of fact, God's promise given to Abraham HAS BEEN > FULFILLED for many centuries. > > > [Gen 15:18] On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram > and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of > Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-- > > > Abraham's descendants included Ishmael, Esau, [Gen 25:1] > After Sarah's death, Abraham took another wife, whose name was > Keturah. She bore him SIX more sons. > > > [Gen 25:2] She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, > Ishbak and Shuah. > > > ALL of them produced descendants that settled in that region > between the Nile and the Euphrates! They are still there and we > often call them 'Arabs.' That land belongs to ALL of them in > accordance with God's promise to Abraham. > > > They just need to learn to share it peaceably. Maybe > something positive CAN come of the Annapolis Summit!! > > > Shalom, > Blair > > > > > >> >> ============= >> Shalom to all! >> >> >> >> This week I have been flooded with insights while preparing my >> lesson. >> I simply can't wait until this Saturday morning's class. We are >> living >> in exciting times. This week, while leaders from all over the world >> convened in Annapolis, Maryland to discuss among other things, the >> future of Jerusalem, I have been busy studying what God's word has to >> say about it. >> >> >> >> You shouldn't be surprised to find out that there is a great >> difference >> between what various political leaders have in mind and what God sets >> forth in the Bible through His prophets. >> >> >> >> You may however be surprised to learn that the ancient Triennial >> cycle >> reading from the Law and the Prophets to be read this Saturday, >> speaks >> directly about this subject. >> >> >> >> In this week's Torah reading (Genesis 12 and 13) as well as the >> Prophets reading (Joshua 24) we read very clearly that God gave the >> land of Israel to Abram and his seed, specifically through Isaac and >> Jacob. >> >> >> >> In my estimation, the return of the Jewish people to the land >> promised >> to the patriarchs in our day, is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. >> This return of Israel to the "promised land" is perhaps the most >> prominent theme in the Hebrew Prophets, mentioned in over 40 major >> sections of the texts. As I have pointed out before, God's >> restoration >> of Israel to the promised land is the one thing that He will do with >> "all His heart and all His soul" - Jeremiah 32:41. >> >> >> >> One should take note that God calls this small and highly contested >> land - "my land" in Joel 3:2. Jews, Christians and Moslems all lay >> claim to it in all or in part, but this week's class will make clear >> that the "title / deed" was promised by God to a single family - >> Israel! >> >> >> >> It is commonly referred to today as the "Holy Land". (See Zechariah >> 2:13 for the one time in the Bible where this name is used to >> refer to >> "the Land" of Israel). >> >> >> >> In my studies this week I found one passage to be most incredible. >> Popular translations don't do justice to this passage and so I have >> translated it myself in order to render it more closely to the >> original >> Hebrew. It may seem awkward in English, but this literal rendering is >> much better I think. In Deuteronomy 11:12 we find that this land is; >> >> >> >> "a land which the LORD your God searches her continually: the eyes of >> the LORD are on her, from the beginning of the year and until the end >> of the year." >> >> >> >> Think about that! Can you imagine God searching this land continually >> throughout the year with His eyes? The image I get is of a guard >> looking up and down this strip of land from a strategic viewpoint! >> >> >> >> Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme >> importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I >> only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, >> participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic >> heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or >> synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would >> especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel >> had to >> say about the subject that they now consider. >> >> >> >> In the third chapter of Joel we read: >> >> >> >> KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I >> shall >> bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also >> gather >> all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, >> and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage >> Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my >> land. >> >> >> >> The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It >> means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all >> nations is >> brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY >> land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on >> "in the >> news". >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/3650dfc0/attachment.html From kim.alvarado at charter.net Tue Dec 4 01:29:10 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 23:29:10 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Arabs for Israel website In-Reply-To: <34470982-F1EE-4D3D-B851-3122D8130924@alaska.com> Message-ID: <20071204022910.ZONWE.228591.root@fepweb05> There are Arabs that support the State of Israel. See this link: http://www.arabsforisrael.com/whoarewe.html?. Probable that many of these are Jews who were forced to convert. There is has also always been the "stranger within the land" who wants to attach himself to Israel. The common thread seems to be seeking the will of the Creator and not our own. One other thing I would like to say: Ismael and Issac/ Jacob and Esau came together to in peace for a purpose - to bury Abraham/Issac. They did not choose to dwell together. Praying that the Arabs and the Jews come together to bury the hatred between them. Kim ---- Bonnie Nelson wrote: ============= My Rabbi teacher says I can quote him about Saladin in Palestine in the 12th century. "Saladin forced the indigenous Jews to convert to Islam to create a unity of belief within his community. The Crusaders, however, murdered both Jews and Moslems as infidels, non-believers. When the Christians forced non-Christians to convert, they still monitored them closely to make sure that the converts were practicing ?correct? Christianity and not secret Jewish, or Moslem, practices." and also "They were indigenous Jews. It is no accident that the Arab Palestinians and the Sephardic Jews of Palestine have the same exact DNA sequence. They are one and the same people." Shlom, Bonnie Hi Kim, I also believe they will come together in peace. At least they have agreed to talk every 2 weeks. I hope Condoliza Rice and George Bush succeed in mediating. Bonnie On Dec 3, 2007, at 7:37 PM, kim.alvarado at charter.net wrote: > In Gen. 25 we are told that Abraham sent away the sons of the > concubines from his son Issac to the land of the east. We are told > that Ismael's sons dwelt opposite Egypt towards Assyria. I think > that there is/was land set aside for them, but not, I feel, in the > land of Israel, especially where Jerusalem (the capital of the > Southern Kingdom) is concerned. That being said, I have also heard > that one day just as Ismael and Issac came together to bury Abraham > and later Esau and Jacob came together to bury Issac, the two > nations will come together in peace. > > Another point to consider is that the current boundaries of the > State of Israel are nowhere close to the boundaries given in the > Torah. I believe that the land won in 1967 was won by Ha Shem > fighting for His people. > > Loving this dialogue group, > Kim > > ---- Dick L wrote: > > ============= > Very interesting Subject? But in Gen:21: 10 The son of the > bondwoman shall not be heir with my son--Issac. 21:12 in Issac > shall thy seed be called. Seems as if this means the Arabs do NOT > have a part in the inheritance of Israel??? > Just my thought. Dick L. There is more----but I'll leave it > to the experts. > Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson > > > Ross, > Here is what I got from my Christian teacher about how the > prophesies may pertain to the state of Israel today and in response > to your post on your ROF Lesson for November. I would appreciate > your response as I am a beginner at this but trying hard to > understand what is for me overwhelming. Thank you for this open > forum and "big tent" dialogue about critical issues in critical times. > Bonnie > > > > > Bonnie: > > > My take on this subject follows. > > > In my opinion, those who believe that the fulfillment of the > prophecies of Joel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, are to be found in today's > State of Israel are misinterpreting the meanings of 'Judah' and > 'Israel.' > > > The time spoken of by Joel 3, for example, lists both Judah > and Israel but does so from a different standpoint than is > typically interpreted. > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, > when I shall bring again the captivity of JUDAH and Jerusalem, 2 I > will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the > valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people > and for my heritage ISRAEL, whom they have scattered among the > nations, and parted my land. > > > Those prophets were living during the period of the Divided > Kingdoms of Judah and Israel, i.e., long after the death of > Solomon. To those prophets, 'JUDAH' referred to the Southern > Kingdom that included primarily the tribe of Judah, the small tribe > of Benjamin and a smattering of the remains of the tribe of Simeon > [the majority of Simeon failed to defeat the Edomites (descendants > of Esau) and assimilated with them. Today, those Israelites are > part of the 'Arabs' in and around Israel and those descendants of > Simeon do not even know they are Israelites. Many would be > horrified to find that they were!]. > > > In those prophets' times, the Northern Kingdom of Israel > essentially had no religion. Jereboam who became the first king of > ISRAEL (which included the other 9 tribes) refused to allow the > people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel to go to the Temple in > Jerusalem. For the most part, they took up the worship of the > pagan gods of the Canaanites. There was a stressful period of > better than 200 years with the two kingdoms--the Northern Kingdom > refusing to worship God at all (the 'faithless Israel' Jer 3:6) and > 'unfaithful Judah' based in Jerusalem (Jer 3:7) frequently setting > aside their worship of God by also sacrificing to heathen idols. > One key thing to note here, is the distinction between 'faithless > Israel' versus 'unfaithful Judah.' > > > By 722 BCE, the Northern Kingdom of ISRAEL had been taken > captive by the Assyrians and scattered throughout the Assyrian > empire. Those nine tribes are part of the 'Ten Lost Tribes of > Israel.' (The other lost tribe was Simeon as above.) For roughly > 150 years, the Southern Kingdom of 'Judah' was all that remained of > the identifiable 12 Tribes of Israel. > > > Then, during the time of Jeremiah, Solomon's Temple was > destroyed when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 585 BCE. The > tribe of Judah was then carried off to Babylonian captivity for > about 70 years. Under Ezra and Nehemiah a group of those captive > 'Jews' returned to Jerusalem where they rebuilt the city walls and > erected the Second Temple--roughly about 500 BCE. > > > SO, when those prophets spoke of 'JUDAH' they were talking > about the people that became known as the 'Jews.' The rest of the > tribes of Israel were never called 'Jews.' > > > When the prophets spoke of 'ISRAEL' they were talking about > the people who were taken into captivity but who had lost their > identities as descendants of Abraham (actually Israel==Jacob). > > > So, in Joel 3:1, the prophet is speaking of the coming > Babylonian captivity which dealt only with Judah and Jerusalem. In > Joel 3:2 notice that Israel is the scattered portion. > > > KJV Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring > them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them > there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have > scattered among the nations, and parted my land. > > > It is essential to recognize the difference between Judah and > Israel to make sense of these prophecies. The opinion that the > prophets' use of 'Israel' to mean the 'Jews' of today is very shaky > in my opinion. > > > The references to Israel returning and occupying the land in > peace has NOT YET COME TO PASS. I believe it WILL happen, but not > yet. The first return of 'Jews' (Judah) as we see it today may > well be the first stages of the process of Israel (the other > tribes) returning. BUT FIRST, the descendants of the 'lost' Israel > must be identified and desire to return to the Holy Land. > Personally, I think the current geneticists' work on studying DNA > will eventually give us an identity marker to identify all Israelites. > > > But to say that the land was promised to the 'Jews' is > misleading. God's promise is to ALL the descendants of Israel to > INCLUDE the Jews but it is not to be limited to them. > > > As a matter of fact, God's promise given to Abraham HAS BEEN > FULFILLED for many centuries. > > > [Gen 15:18] On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram > and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of > Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-- > > > Abraham's descendants included Ishmael, Esau, [Gen 25:1] > After Sarah's death, Abraham took another wife, whose name was > Keturah. She bore him SIX more sons. > > > [Gen 25:2] She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, > Ishbak and Shuah. > > > ALL of them produced descendants that settled in that region > between the Nile and the Euphrates! They are still there and we > often call them 'Arabs.' That land belongs to ALL of them in > accordance with God's promise to Abraham. > > > They just need to learn to share it peaceably. Maybe > something positive CAN come of the Annapolis Summit!! > > > Shalom, > Blair > > > > > >> >> ============= >> Shalom to all! >> >> >> >> This week I have been flooded with insights while preparing my >> lesson. >> I simply can't wait until this Saturday morning's class. We are >> living >> in exciting times. This week, while leaders from all over the world >> convened in Annapolis, Maryland to discuss among other things, the >> future of Jerusalem, I have been busy studying what God's word has to >> say about it. >> >> >> >> You shouldn't be surprised to find out that there is a great >> difference >> between what various political leaders have in mind and what God sets >> forth in the Bible through His prophets. >> >> >> >> You may however be surprised to learn that the ancient Triennial >> cycle >> reading from the Law and the Prophets to be read this Saturday, >> speaks >> directly about this subject. >> >> >> >> In this week's Torah reading (Genesis 12 and 13) as well as the >> Prophets reading (Joshua 24) we read very clearly that God gave the >> land of Israel to Abram and his seed, specifically through Isaac and >> Jacob. >> >> >> >> In my estimation, the return of the Jewish people to the land >> promised >> to the patriarchs in our day, is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. >> This return of Israel to the "promised land" is perhaps the most >> prominent theme in the Hebrew Prophets, mentioned in over 40 major >> sections of the texts. As I have pointed out before, God's >> restoration >> of Israel to the promised land is the one thing that He will do with >> "all His heart and all His soul" - Jeremiah 32:41. >> >> >> >> One should take note that God calls this small and highly contested >> land - "my land" in Joel 3:2. Jews, Christians and Moslems all lay >> claim to it in all or in part, but this week's class will make clear >> that the "title / deed" was promised by God to a single family - >> Israel! >> >> >> >> It is commonly referred to today as the "Holy Land". (See Zechariah >> 2:13 for the one time in the Bible where this name is used to >> refer to >> "the Land" of Israel). >> >> >> >> In my studies this week I found one passage to be most incredible. >> Popular translations don't do justice to this passage and so I have >> translated it myself in order to render it more closely to the >> original >> Hebrew. It may seem awkward in English, but this literal rendering is >> much better I think. In Deuteronomy 11:12 we find that this land is; >> >> >> >> "a land which the LORD your God searches her continually: the eyes of >> the LORD are on her, from the beginning of the year and until the end >> of the year." >> >> >> >> Think about that! Can you imagine God searching this land continually >> throughout the year with His eyes? The image I get is of a guard >> looking up and down this strip of land from a strategic viewpoint! >> >> >> >> Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme >> importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I >> only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, >> participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic >> heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or >> synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would >> especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel >> had to >> say about the subject that they now consider. >> >> >> >> In the third chapter of Joel we read: >> >> >> >> KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I >> shall >> bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also >> gather >> all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, >> and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage >> Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my >> land. >> >> >> >> The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It >> means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all >> nations is >> brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY >> land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on >> "in the >> news". >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/541dc998/attachment.html From kim.alvarado at charter.net Tue Dec 4 01:49:58 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 23:49:58 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah in New Orleans Message-ID: <20071204024958.L50Z2.228731.root@fepweb05> Anyone who is close enough to come. Every year a giant hannukiah sp? is lit down by the river with live music, latkes, etc. This year's event will be held next Sunday, Dec. 9. Kim From b.nelson at alaska.com Tue Dec 4 02:17:35 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:17:35 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah in New Orleans In-Reply-To: <20071204024958.L50Z2.228731.root@fepweb05> References: <20071204024958.L50Z2.228731.root@fepweb05> Message-ID: I wish. I am in Alaska. Tell me about what you will be doing, or have done, whichever, maybe I can adapt something. I haven't joined the Synagogue here. Are you in New Orleans. I hope someone takes pictures. On Dec 3, 2007, at 10:49 PM, kim.alvarado at charter.net wrote: > Anyone who is close enough to come. Every year a giant hannukiah > sp? is lit down by the river with live music, latkes, etc. This > year's event will be held next Sunday, Dec. 9. > > Kim > _______________________________________________ From b.nelson at alaska.com Tue Dec 4 02:24:17 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:24:17 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson In-Reply-To: <00c001c8363e$739165c0$c701000a@RabbiGershon> References: <00c001c8363e$739165c0$c701000a@RabbiGershon> Message-ID: Ross, I have not received a response from Blair, my Christian teacher, but this was the response of my Rabbi teacher. Thank you again for being open to different perspectives in order to find truth!! > We Jews do not see prophecy as future telling like the Christians > do. Joel was describing an event happening in his lifetime and > experience. It is beyond my ability to fathom why God would give a > people a prophecy that would not come to pass for hundreds or > thousands of years. How could they relate to such a ?prophecy?? > What meaning could it possibly have for those who heard it uttered? > Would you care about what is going to happen two thousand plus > years from today? Think about it. I think not. It is hard enough to > fathom Global warming and Climate Change prophecies (where are they > mentioned in the Holy Writ or in Latter-day prophecies?). > > > From: RNDAVAR at aol.com > Date: December 2, 2007 9:18:10 PM AKST > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Dear Bonnie, > Thanks for forwarding your Christian teacher's take on the subject. > It appears that this teacher has studied the Scripture. I wish I > had more time to respond tonight but must try and get some sleep. I > have a very early day tomorrow and my wife and I just got in. We > took the day off and I have tried to stay away from the computer. > I will say in short that I, like Blair, recognize the distinction > between Judah and Israel. In fact this is one of the primary points > that I show students of Scripture every chance I get. I am actually > affiliated with the United Israel World Union, which has promoted > this awareness for over 65 years (www.unitedisrael.org). > I do believe that Judah's return to the land is a fulfillment of > prophecy, but like Blair, I would agree that this is only partial > since the masses of the "lost tribes" are not yet manifested. And > yet, in our day and to this point, they represent the part of > "Israel" that is visible and so I feel obligated to proclaim that > they are Israel in a world of Bible teachers who quite often have > "appropriated" the title through various forms of replacement > theology. Whoever else may be Israel, it is Judah that has remained > the sole visible "Israel" in the world. > All Bible interpreters worth their salt, seek to understand things > in their original context. My modern "association of world events" > with events from the book of Joel, despite knowing what I know of > the context still "gives me pause" as I read it and watch current > events. My reason for including it in my newsletter was to draw a > correlation between the events described therein and any attempt to > divide the land - the very subject that the world leaders now > consider. It is not that I believe, nor did I intend to suggest > that the Annapolis conference was a fulfillment of Joel 3, but the > events described in that passage certainly made for an interesting > parallel. I tend to think that God would plead with "all nations" > anytime that they seek to divide the land. > That these prophetic texts are often interpreted in different > contexts is certain and I too participate in this ancient practice. > The community at Qumran used these texts from the Hebrew prophets > as they looked at their world and so do I....and so does your > Christian teacher I would assume. > We should be very careful though and perhaps this is a lesson to me > as I send things out to be very clear on what I mean when I say > what I say. > For instance, I wonder what people would say about Peter's use of > Joel 2:28ff to describe the events that he reportedly witnessed in > his time and described in Acts 2. There, it seems, he sees these > events as those described by Joel. A re-reading of those texts by > modern readers might cause them to question whether the events were > completely fulfilled in the upper room. Or perhaps Peter meant only > to draw a correlation between the events he witnessed and the words > of the ancient prophets of Israel. > So to try and be more clear, let me preface my original remarks > with a few more sentences and then attach them here again. The > content of Joel 3 and the topics on the table of the peace talks > have some points of congruity in my understanding. This is not to > say that Joel 3 is fulfilled by this Annapolis meeting. There is > however, as I understand it, a desire to chalaq the land, > specifically Jerusalem which is inhabited by a portion of Judah. > While those scattered are certainly Israel - the pleading of God to > all nations is in this passage, at least in part on account of this > parting of the land. > I hope that this helps, and I would love for Blair to join this > list. I am certain that we could learn from one another. Please > tell Blair that I appreciate the comments. > Shalom, Ross > ____________________________ > Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme > > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I > > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, > > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic > > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or > > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would > > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel > had to > > say about the subject that they now consider. > > > > > > > > In the third chapter of Joel we read: > > > > > > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I > shall > > bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also > gather > > all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of > Jehoshaphat, > > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage > > Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my > > land. > > > > > > > > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It > > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all > nations is > > brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY > > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on > "in the > > news". > Ross K. Nichols > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and > top money wasters of 2007. > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071203/7785e69c/attachment.html From kim.alvarado at charter.net Tue Dec 4 04:14:44 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 2:14:44 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah in New Orleans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071204051444.SR4VA.48553.root@fepweb06> Other than going to New Orleans, it will be rather simple. I'll light the candles, tell my children the story of Hanukkah and play dreidel. I'm in Slidell, Lousiana - about 30 minutes from New Orleans and about 2 hours from Ross's group in St. Francisville. I will take pictures and post them, that is if I can get off work in time to go. What is the time difference between here and Alaska? ---- Bonnie Nelson wrote: ============= I wish. I am in Alaska. Tell me about what you will be doing, or have done, whichever, maybe I can adapt something. I haven't joined the Synagogue here. Are you in New Orleans. I hope someone takes pictures. On Dec 3, 2007, at 10:49 PM, kim.alvarado at charter.net wrote: > Anyone who is close enough to come. Every year a giant hannukiah > sp? is lit down by the river with live music, latkes, etc. This > year's event will be held next Sunday, Dec. 9. > > Kim > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 06:12:15 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 07:12:15 EST Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Message-ID: Dear Pat, Thank you so much for thinking of me...it warms my heart to know how much you care. Unfortunately, this particular job doesn't seem to be a 'fit,' but maybe the next 'idea' will! :-) I hope you have a wonderful day! Your pal, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/4bafcdfb/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 06:40:04 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 07:40:04 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Best wishes Message-ID: Shalom to all, A Hanukah Sameach (Happy) to you and your families, may it be joyous and filled with love! Luv y'all, Hanukah Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/28f91743/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Tue Dec 4 08:06:10 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 08:06:10 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Best wishes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well Hanoch, I read emails (including your final installments) up until 12:30 last night. My head was spinning and I had to go to bed. Your story is amazing. When I read 33 Candles myself, the thing that struck me hardest was how David just threw himself out to G-d, even through some of the most crazy stuff I've ever heard of. He simply just trusted G-d and believed that He was going to accomplish His purpose in his life. >From your story I can say that I get that same feeling. While I can't say that I have been a model of that level of faith in my life, I want to be. I believe that is the kind of faith Abraham showed, even when all the world thinks you're out of your mind you just have to follow G-d's lead. Now I know that there are many that claim to be doing G-d's will out there and really are nuts, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about having the courage to live as G-d has told us we should live, whether it complies with somebody's catechism (and I don't mean just in the Catholic sense) or not. Anyway, it seems that we are both at about the same point in our lives. My kids are grown and finally on their own (after several botched launch attempts). I have been given a separation package from my job so I am essentially free to reinvent my career, I have some bills to pay off, but for the most part my responsibility structure has taken a dramatic turn over the last year. There are other similarities as well. My own mother died a little over a year ago. She had lung cancer (smoking) as well but beat it. She died after a long, very traumatic series of events which ended with submission to hardening of the arteries (also smoking related). It was a very hard, emotional time for me as well. No matter how hard you try to be there for them, in your own heart it just never seems like it was enough. Anyway, I am looking forward to talking with you and working with you in whatever capacity G-d has in store for us. I am open to G-d's lead and much more wary of man's wisdom than I ever was. Like you, He has brought me here and all of us together for a reason and I am excited that while I may not be able to see exactly where He is leading us, I know that when we look back along the ancient paths we will be even more amazed at what He has accomplished in and through us. Thank you for sharing this amazing story with us. I suspect there is still more to add though. Shalom my brother, let's walk together for a distance and see what HaShem has to show us. John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 6:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Best wishes Shalom to all, A Hanukah Sameach (Happy) to you and your families, may it be joyous and filled with love! Luv y'all, Hanukah Hanoch ________________________________ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/c1b7cfca/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Tue Dec 4 08:21:24 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 06:21:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <432563.85731.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Good Morning Hanoch, I must say that I am sad to know that this is the end of the Saga. I have been checking emails regularly waiting for the next installment. Once again, I let me say "Thank You" for sharing these most personal details with us. I was also very sad to hear about your mom's battle with cancer. As I told you yesterday, my dad had lung cancer and died within 4 days of being told. He had been sick for quite awhile though. My mom had died from a heart attack 3 years earlier and dad never recovered from losing her (they had been married for 51 years). He was sick most of those 3 years.........really didn't have the will to go on. I think that once he learned that there was cancer.............he just gave up. I was an only child and losing both of them within 3 years of each other has been very hard. I thank HaShem for the strength that carried me through those trying times. I believe that those kinds of experiences make us who we are.........they make us stronger and let us know that we have to rely on G-d from whom all things come. Just thought that I would share a few personal details with you......thanks for listening. Shalom and Happy Hanukkah, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Well, having the single most important person in your life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years before, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective on things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel like? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as selfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if mom wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to me, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was not one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat cell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in the hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social dancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was worried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her wig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat morning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! Immediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray hair (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, they would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! Over the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream onto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which was operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell does THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years HaShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to her maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ever had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining that Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was breaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and telling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it would be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). She nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was comforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low box....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that still isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as much as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it forces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you (after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part of the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time when you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent the girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before getting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed that, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days of not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the realization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only extended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a cause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or straightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there was another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every way you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts bouts, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that survives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people were undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the deaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much since those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped me enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to Ephraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and y'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come to understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber Phenomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, I grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted it NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me reappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a demonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What should I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World According to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called Becky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a yo-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I ignored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found that I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair Davidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I volunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it with the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of arguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of Rav) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I doing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, and then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from the Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one Jewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best used bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I mean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, all the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, sometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in friendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. With my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make Charlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes spins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to throw myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones around seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope the UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in some manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that I am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on this list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with love in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, that resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is finishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at Midreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in Hebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared many personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet the right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and raise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! She's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in the so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing Sherut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she is in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if you ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the Judean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go on Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what he's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the girls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go to Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an Israeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex for the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know :-) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the King of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, particularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My arms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of you, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple Mount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut shell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/cd9f9fbf/attachment.html From kim.alvarado at charter.net Tue Dec 4 08:26:12 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 6:26:12 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga In-Reply-To: <432563.85731.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071204092612.WCLW7.237912.root@fepweb11> Tammy and Hanoch, I am sorry for both of your losses. I don't know what it feels like to loose a parent, I can only imagine. I lost my 3 year old son on Dec. 21, 1993. This is a very hard time of year for me. Kim ---- Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote: ============= Good Morning Hanoch, I must say that I am sad to know that this is the end of the Saga. I have been checking emails regularly waiting for the next installment. Once again, I let me say "Thank You" for sharing these most personal details with us. I was also very sad to hear about your mom's battle with cancer. As I told you yesterday, my dad had lung cancer and died within 4 days of being told. He had been sick for quite awhile though. My mom had died from a heart attack 3 years earlier and dad never recovered from losing her (they had been married for 51 years). He was sick most of those 3 years.........really didn't have the will to go on. I think that once he learned that there was cancer.............he just gave up. I was an only child and losing both of them within 3 years of each other has been very hard. I thank HaShem for the strength that carried me through those trying times. I believe that those kinds of experiences make us who we are.........they make us stronger and let us know that we have to rely on G-d from whom all things come. Just thought that I would share a few personal details with you......thanks for listening. Shalom and Happy Hanukkah, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Well, having the single most important person in your life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years before, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective on things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel like? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as selfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if mom wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to me, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was not one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat cell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in the hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social dancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was worried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her wig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat morning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! Immediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray hair (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, they would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! Over the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream onto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which was operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell does THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years HaShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to her maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ever had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining that Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was breaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and telling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it would be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). She nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was comforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low box....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that still isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as much as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it forces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you (after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part of the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time when you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent the girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before getting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed that, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days of not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the realization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only extended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a cause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or straightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there was another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every way you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts bouts, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that survives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people were undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the deaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much since those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped me enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to Ephraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and y'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come to understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber Phenomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, I grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted it NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me reappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a demonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What should I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World According to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called Becky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a yo-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I ignored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found that I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair Davidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I volunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it with the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of arguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of Rav) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I doing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, and then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from the Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one Jewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best used bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I mean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, all the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, sometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in friendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. With my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make Charlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes spins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to throw myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones around seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope the UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in some manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that I am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on this list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with love in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, that resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is finishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at Midreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in Hebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared many personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet the right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and raise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! She's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in the so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing Sherut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she is in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if you ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the Judean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go on Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what he's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the girls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go to Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an Israeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex for the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know :-) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the King of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, particularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My arms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of you, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple Mount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut shell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 08:31:06 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 09:31:06 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga In-Reply-To: <20071204092612.WCLW7.237912.root@fepweb11> References: <432563.85731.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20071204092612.WCLW7.237912.root@fepweb11> Message-ID: Kim, Nothing could be a hard as losing your child. Please know that you are in my heart and prayers during this time of the year. Love, Pat> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 06:26:12 -0800> From: kim.alvarado at charter.net> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga> CC: > > Tammy and Hanoch,> > I am sorry for both of your losses. I don't know what it feels like to loose a parent, I can only imagine. I lost my 3 year old son on Dec. 21, 1993. This is a very hard time of year for me.> > Kim> ---- Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote: > > =============> Good Morning Hanoch,> I must say that I am sad to know that this is the end of the Saga. I have been checking emails regularly waiting for the next installment. Once again, I let me say "Thank You" for sharing these most personal details with us. > I was also very sad to hear about your mom's battle with cancer. As I told you yesterday, my dad had lung cancer and died within 4 days of being told. He had been sick for quite awhile though. My mom had died from a heart attack 3 years earlier and dad never recovered from losing her (they had been married for 51 years). He was sick most of those 3 years.........really didn't have the will to go on. I think that once he learned that there was cancer.............he just gave up. I was an only child and losing both of them within 3 years of each other has been very hard. I thank HaShem for the strength that carried me through those trying times. I believe that those kinds of experiences make us who we are.........they make us stronger and let us know that we have to rely on G-d from whom all things come. Just thought that I would share a few personal details with you......thanks for listening.> Shalom and Happy Hanukkah,> Tammy> > YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Well, having the single most important person in your life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years before, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective on things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel like? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help?> > Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as selfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if mom wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to me, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was not one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat cell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in the hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her.> > And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social dancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was worried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her wig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat morning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! Immediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray hair (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, they would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! Over the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream onto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once.> > The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which was operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell does THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years HaShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to her maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ever had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining that Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva.> > "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was breaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and telling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it would be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). She nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was comforting ME! I couldn't believe it.> > I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low box....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that still isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as much as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it forces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you (after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part of the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time when you should be concerned about your appearance. > > I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent the girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before getting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed that, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days of not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the realization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only extended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone.......> > But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a cause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or straightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there was another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every way you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts bouts, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that survives...> > Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people were undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the deaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much since those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped me enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to Ephraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and y'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come to understand where people like me come from, too...> > Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber Phenomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, I grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted it NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me reappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a demonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What should I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World According to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called Becky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged....> > I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a yo-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I ignored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found that I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair Davidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I volunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it with the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of arguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of Rav) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I doing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' > > Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, and then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from the Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one Jewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best used bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I mean....> > So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, all the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, sometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in friendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. With my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make Charlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes spins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to throw myself into the 'cause.'> > I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones around seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope the UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in some manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that I am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on this list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with love in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, that resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple.> > My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is finishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at Midreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in Hebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared many personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet the right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and raise her family in Israel. > > Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! She's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in the so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing Sherut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she is in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if you ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the Judean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go on Aliyah after this coming summer. > > So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what he's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the girls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go to Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an Israeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex for the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know :-) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the King of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe....> > So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, particularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My arms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of you, don't hesitate to ask. > > Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple Mount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut shell.......thanks for listening........> > B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love),> Hanoch> > > > > > > > ---------------------------------> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.> _______________________________________________> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." > Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2> > > ---------------------------------> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.> _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/f2537021/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Tue Dec 4 08:36:43 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 06:36:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga In-Reply-To: <20071204092612.WCLW7.237912.root@fepweb11> Message-ID: <589409.75722.qm@web57104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi Kim, Thank you for your kind words. Both of my parents died in the month of November. Mom actually died on Thanksgiving day and dad died on Nov. 30........ 3 years later. So the month of November is always hard for me. I will keep you in my prayers this month. Shalom, Tammy kim.alvarado at charter.net wrote: Tammy and Hanoch, I am sorry for both of your losses. I don't know what it feels like to loose a parent, I can only imagine. I lost my 3 year old son on Dec. 21, 1993. This is a very hard time of year for me. Kim ---- Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote: ============= Good Morning Hanoch, I must say that I am sad to know that this is the end of the Saga. I have been checking emails regularly waiting for the next installment. Once again, I let me say "Thank You" for sharing these most personal details with us. I was also very sad to hear about your mom's battle with cancer. As I told you yesterday, my dad had lung cancer and died within 4 days of being told. He had been sick for quite awhile though. My mom had died from a heart attack 3 years earlier and dad never recovered from losing her (they had been married for 51 years). He was sick most of those 3 years.........really didn't have the will to go on. I think that once he learned that there was cancer.............he just gave up. I was an only child and losing both of them within 3 years of each other has been very hard. I thank HaShem for the strength that carried me through those trying times. I believe that those kinds of experiences make us who we are.........they make us stronger and let us know that we have to rely on G-d from whom all things come. Just thought that I would share a few personal details with you......thanks for listening. Shalom and Happy Hanukkah, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Well, having the single most important person in your life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years before, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective on things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel like? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as selfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if mom wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to me, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was not one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat cell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in the hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social dancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was worried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her wig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat morning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! Immediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray hair (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, they would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! Over the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream onto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which was operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell does THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years HaShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to her maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ever had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining that Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was breaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and telling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it would be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). She nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was comforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low box....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that still isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as much as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it forces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you (after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part of the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time when you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent the girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before getting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed that, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days of not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the realization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only extended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a cause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or straightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there was another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every way you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts bouts, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that survives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people were undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the deaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much since those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped me enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to Ephraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and y'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come to understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber Phenomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, I grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted it NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me reappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a demonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What should I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World According to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called Becky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a yo-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I ignored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found that I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair Davidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I volunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it with the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of arguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of Rav) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I doing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, and then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from the Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one Jewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best used bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I mean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, all the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, sometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in friendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. With my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make Charlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes spins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to throw myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones around seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope the UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in some manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that I am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on this list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with love in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, that resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is finishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at Midreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in Hebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared many personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet the right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and raise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! She's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in the so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing Sherut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she is in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if you ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the Judean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go on Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what he's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the girls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go to Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an Israeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex for the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know :-) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the King of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, particularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My arms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of you, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple Mount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut shell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/c16ae71c/attachment.html From kim.alvarado at charter.net Tue Dec 4 08:51:04 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 9:51:04 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand Maps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071204095104.R44E2.239750.root@fepweb11> Just got around to looking at this. It explains it very well. Thank you. Kim ---- YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: ============= _Click here: History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand Maps_ (http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) From JCARLSO at entergy.com Tue Dec 4 08:52:47 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 08:52:47 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Bonnie, I have to jump in here with couple of points. I am very wary when people (regardless of their position) take it upon themselves to speak for an entire group (race, creed or color, whatever) as though what they hold to be true is universally accepted, it's part of the reason I am in this dialogue. While I mean no disrespect toward your Rabbi teacher I seriously doubt that he speaks for all Jewish people in his views toward prophesy, in fact I know such is not the case. It is a very healthy thing in my opinion to ask the question; "Why would G-d.....(fill in the blank)?". What we need to be careful of is filling in the blank with our own wisdom. Just because what G-d does in any particular situation makes no sense to us in our own imaginations does not mean it is not the truth, His ways are not our ways. It doesn't matter whether you are Jewish, Gentile, pagan or otherwise, if we define G-d's ways through our own imaginations then we are sure to wander off into the night, maybe forever. This has been proven over and over again in every attempt man has made to show G-d we know a better way, regardless of our religion. I have found that whenever I get to the point in these discussions that my own wisdom (or some other person's wisdom) is about to take precedence over G-d's word as given in the Torah, then it is then time to re-read Ecclesiastes. It doesn't matter who wrote it, it is wisdom for the ages. Again, I mean no disrespect to any of your teachers (or anyone else's for that matter). But it is important to remember that they and we are but men and women, HaShem is not! I certainly don't have the answers for you and I doubt anyone else here does but I am convinced that each of us has a responsibility to seek out our relationship with G-d individually while paying close attention to what He is trying to show us through each other. We walk on these ancient paths together but in our own footsteps with HaShem to guide us. His Word and His Spirit are the lights He has given us to walk by, let us not close our eyes to them. To me it is clear in the following excerpt from Jeremiah that God knows exactly who His people are; Jeremiah 24 1 After Jehoiachin [a ] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the craftsmen and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the LORD showed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the LORD. 2 One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very poor figs, so bad they could not be eaten. 3 Then the LORD asked me, "What do you see, Jeremiah?" "Figs," I answered. "The good ones are very good, but the poor ones are so bad they cannot be eaten." 4 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 5 "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. [b ] 6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart. 8 " 'But like the poor figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,' says the LORD, 'so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt. 9 I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, an object of ridicule and cursing, wherever I banish them. 10 I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their fathers.' Man, I don't know of any other place we could possibly have discussions like these. Shalom ;-{)} John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:24 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Ross, I have not received a response from Blair, my Christian teacher, but this was the response of my Rabbi teacher. Thank you again for being open to different perspectives in order to find truth!! We Jews do not see prophecy as future telling like the Christians do. Joel was describing an event happening in his lifetime and experience. It is beyond my ability to fathom why God would give a people a prophecy that would not come to pass for hundreds or thousands of years. How could they relate to such a "prophecy"? What meaning could it possibly have for those who heard it uttered? Would you care about what is going to happen two thousand plus years from today? Think about it. I think not. It is hard enough to fathom Global warming and Climate Change prophecies (where are they mentioned in the Holy Writ or in Latter-day prophecies?). From: RNDAVAR at aol.com Date: December 2, 2007 9:18:10 PM AKST To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Dear Bonnie, Thanks for forwarding your Christian teacher's take on the subject. It appears that this teacher has studied the Scripture. I wish I had more time to respond tonight but must try and get some sleep. I have a very early day tomorrow and my wife and I just got in. We took the day off and I have tried to stay away from the computer. I will say in short that I, like Blair, recognize the distinction between Judah and Israel. In fact this is one of the primary points that I show students of Scripture every chance I get. I am actually affiliated with the United Israel World Union, which has promoted this awareness for over 65 years (www.unitedisrael.org). I do believe that Judah's return to the land is a fulfillment of prophecy, but like Blair, I would agree that this is only partial since the masses of the "lost tribes" are not yet manifested. And yet, in our day and to this point, they represent the part of "Israel" that is visible and so I feel obligated to proclaim that they are Israel in a world of Bible teachers who quite often have "appropriated" the title through various forms of replacement theology. Whoever else may be Israel, it is Judah that has remained the sole visible "Israel" in the world. All Bible interpreters worth their salt, seek to understand things in their original context. My modern "association of world events" with events from the book of Joel, despite knowing what I know of the context still "gives me pause" as I read it and watch current events. My reason for including it in my newsletter was to draw a correlation between the events described therein and any attempt to divide the land - the very subject that the world leaders now consider. It is not that I believe, nor did I intend to suggest that the Annapolis conference was a fulfillment of Joel 3, but the events described in that passage certainly made for an interesting parallel. I tend to think that God would plead with "all nations" anytime that they seek to divide the land. That these prophetic texts are often interpreted in different contexts is certain and I too participate in this ancient practice. The community at Qumran used these texts from the Hebrew prophets as they looked at their world and so do I....and so does your Christian teacher I would assume. We should be very careful though and perhaps this is a lesson to me as I send things out to be very clear on what I mean when I say what I say. For instance, I wonder what people would say about Peter's use of Joel 2:28ff to describe the events that he reportedly witnessed in his time and described in Acts 2. There, it seems, he sees these events as those described by Joel. A re-reading of those texts by modern readers might cause them to question whether the events were completely fulfilled in the upper room. Or perhaps Peter meant only to draw a correlation between the events he witnessed and the words of the ancient prophets of Israel. So to try and be more clear, let me preface my original remarks with a few more sentences and then attach them here again. The content of Joel 3 and the topics on the table of the peace talks have some points of congruity in my understanding. This is not to say that Joel 3 is fulfilled by this Annapolis meeting. There is however, as I understand it, a desire to chalaq the land, specifically Jerusalem which is inhabited by a portion of Judah. While those scattered are certainly Israel - the pleading of God to all nations is in this passage, at least in part on account of this parting of the land. I hope that this helps, and I would love for Blair to join this list. I am certain that we could learn from one another. Please tell Blair that I appreciate the comments. Shalom, Ross ____________________________ Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel had to > say about the subject that they now consider. > > > > In the third chapter of Joel we read: > > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall > bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather > all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage > Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my > land. > > > > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all nations is > brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on "in the > news". Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org ________________________________ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/3305b284/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Tue Dec 4 08:57:54 2007 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen Dennis) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 10:57:54 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga References: <001f01c83682$532dad90$69012b0a@beeblbrox> Message-ID: <003f01c83686$0d77c610$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Hanoch, Thanks so much for sharing your story.. it has been a great encouragement to me. I do hope you can continue to take part in this group. With Ross' permission i dub you King. :) Shalom Stephen Dennis Fredericton, N.B Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 12:19 AM Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Well, having the single most important person in your life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years before, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective on things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel like? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as selfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if mom wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to me, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was not one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat cell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in the hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social dancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was worried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her wig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat morning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! Immediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray hair (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, they would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! Over the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream onto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which was operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell does THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years HaShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to her maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ever had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining that Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was breaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and telling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it would be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). She nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was comforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low box....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that still isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as much as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it forces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you (after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part of the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time when you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent the girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before getting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed that, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days of not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the realization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only extended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a cause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or straightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there was another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every way you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts bouts, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that survives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people were undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the deaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much since those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped me enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to Ephraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and y'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come to understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber Phenomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, I grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted it NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me reappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a demonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What should I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World According to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called Becky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a yo-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I ignored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found that I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair Davidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I volunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it with the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of arguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of Rav) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I doing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, and then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from the Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one Jewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best used bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I mean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, all the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, sometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in friendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. With my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make Charlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes spins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to throw myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones around seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope the UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in some manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that I am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on this list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with love in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, that resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is finishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at Midreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in Hebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared many personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet the right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and raise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! She's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in the so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing Sherut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she is in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if you ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the Judean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go on Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what he's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the girls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go to Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an Israeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex for the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know :-) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the King of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, particularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My arms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of you, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple Mount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut shell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/f7709715/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Tue Dec 4 09:15:52 2007 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen Dennis) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:15:52 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Dialogue] Check out History of Israel and Palestine in VERYEasy To Understand Maps References: <20071204095104.R44E2.239750.root@fepweb11> Message-ID: <006001c83688$8fdda960$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> For anyone who hasn't seen the "History in maps" presentation, click on the Masada2000 link below. It is excellent. Thanks to Hanoch. Stephen Dennis > ---- YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > > ============= > _Click here: History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand > Maps_ > (http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html) > > > > **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's > hottest > products. > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) > > _______________________________________________ From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 4 09:17:35 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:17:35 +0000 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Dialogue] Check out History of Israel and Palestine in VERYEasy To Understand Maps Message-ID: <120420071517.7978.47556F8F0003325C00001F2A22230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I agree, it shines quite a bit of light on the subject. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Stephen Dennis" : -------------- > For anyone who hasn't seen the "History in maps" presentation, click on the > Masada2000 link below. It is excellent. > > Thanks to Hanoch. > > Stephen Dennis > > > > ---- YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > > > > ============= > > _Click here: History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand > > Maps_ > > (http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html) > > > > > > > > **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's > > hottest > > products. > > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/2bef0de3/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Tue Dec 4 11:26:44 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:26:44 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John, I am not sure but we may have to agree to disagree. I think there are some things that define being Christian... and all other "faiths" that I have studied. I think that what he said is similar to Christians saying that to be a Christian you have to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and either God or the Son of God, and in fact is part of their baptism and membership requirements, as far as I have encountered, and I have been turned away several times because of that. However, Judaism is not so much a "faith" as it is a ethnic cultural way of thinking and behaving. The Reform Rabbi here in Anchorage will not allow a bat mitzva if you are any other "faith," which is far more restrictive than my teacher, and especially he said that believing in Jesus as the Messiah would prohibit a bat mitzva. The most important commandment in the Hebrew scriptures to me is to think and be rational. Predicting far into the future doesn't seem rational to me. If you are referring to Messianic Jews, every Jew I have talked to does not believe they are Jews, except of course the one Messianic Jew I talked to about it. But on the other hand my Rabbi teacher said Orthodox Jews do not consider converts other than their way to be Jews. It is all very confusing to me. But my Rabbi teacher is who I trust the most. Bonnie On Dec 4, 2007, at 5:52 AM, CARLSON, JOHN S wrote: > Hey Bonnie, > > > I have to jump in here with couple of points. > > > I am very wary when people (regardless of their position) take it > upon themselves to speak for an entire group (race, creed or color, > whatever) as though what they hold to be true is universally > accepted, it?s part of the reason I am in this dialogue. While I > mean no disrespect toward your Rabbi teacher I seriously doubt that > he speaks for all Jewish people in his views toward prophesy, in > fact I know such is not the case. It is a very healthy thing in my > opinion to ask the question; ?Why would G-d?..(fill in the > blank)??. What we need to be careful of is filling in the blank > with our own wisdom. Just because what G-d does in any particular > situation makes no sense to us in our own imaginations does not > mean it is not the truth, His ways are not our ways. It doesn?t > matter whether you are Jewish, Gentile, pagan or otherwise, if we > define G-d?s ways through our own imaginations then we are sure to > wander off into the night, maybe forever. This has been proven > over and over again in every attempt man has made to show G-d we > know a better way, regardless of our religion. I have found that > whenever I get to the point in these discussions that my own wisdom > (or some other person?s wisdom) is about to take precedence over G- > d?s word as given in the Torah, then it is then time to re-read > Ecclesiastes. It doesn?t matter who wrote it, it is wisdom for the > ages. > > > Again, I mean no disrespect to any of your teachers (or anyone > else?s for that matter). But it is important to remember that they > and we are but men and women, HaShem is not! I certainly don?t > have the answers for you and I doubt anyone else here does but I am > convinced that each of us has a responsibility to seek out our > relationship with G-d individually while paying close attention to > what He is trying to show us through each other. We walk on these > ancient paths together but in our own footsteps with HaShem to > guide us. His Word and His Spirit are the lights He has given us > to walk by, let us not close our eyes to them. > > > To me it is clear in the following excerpt from Jeremiah that God > knows exactly who His people are; > > > Jeremiah 24 > > 1 After Jehoiachin [a] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the > officials, the craftsmen and the artisans of Judah were carried > into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of > Babylon, the LORD showed me two baskets of figs placed in front of > the temple of the LORD. 2 One basket had very good figs, like those > that ripen early; the other basket had very poor figs, so bad they > could not be eaten. > > 3 Then the LORD asked me, "What do you see, Jeremiah?" > "Figs," I answered. "The good ones are very good, but the > poor ones are so bad they cannot be eaten." > > 4 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 5 "This is what the LORD, > the God of Israel, says: 'Like these good figs, I regard as good > the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land > of the Babylonians. [b] 6 My eyes will watch over them for their > good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up > and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I > will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be > my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with > all their heart. > > 8 " 'But like the poor figs, which are so bad they cannot be > eaten,' says the LORD, 'so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, > his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain > in this land or live in Egypt. 9 I will make them abhorrent and an > offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, > an object of ridicule and cursing, wherever I banish them. 10 I > will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are > destroyed from the land I gave to them and their fathers.' > > Man, I don?t know of any other place we could possibly have > discussions like these. > > > Shalom ;-{)} > > > John C. > > "Be Excellent to Each Other!" > > Bill & Ted > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:24 AM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson > > > Ross, > > I have not received a response from Blair, my Christian teacher, > but this was the response of my Rabbi teacher. Thank you again for > being open to different perspectives in order to find truth!! > >> We Jews do not see prophecy as future telling like the Christians >> do. Joel was describing an event happening in his lifetime and >> experience. It is beyond my ability to fathom why God would give a >> people a prophecy that would not come to pass for hundreds or >> thousands of years. How could they relate to such a ?prophecy?? >> What meaning could it possibly have for those who heard it >> uttered? Would you care about what is going to happen two thousand >> plus years from today? Think about it. I think not. It is hard >> enough to fathom Global warming and Climate Change prophecies >> (where are they mentioned in the Holy Writ or in Latter-day >> prophecies?). >> >> >> >> >> >> From: RNDAVAR at aol.com >> >> Date: December 2, 2007 9:18:10 PM AKST >> >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson >> >> Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> >> Dear Bonnie, >> >> Thanks for forwarding your Christian teacher's take on the >> subject. It appears that this teacher has studied the Scripture. I >> wish I had more time to respond tonight but must try and get some >> sleep. I have a very early day tomorrow and my wife and I just got >> in. We took the day off and I have tried to stay away from the >> computer. >> >> I will say in short that I, like Blair, recognize the distinction >> between Judah and Israel. In fact this is one of the primary >> points that I show students of Scripture every chance I get. I am >> actually affiliated with the United Israel World Union, which has >> promoted this awareness for over 65 years (www.unitedisrael.org). >> >> I do believe that Judah's return to the land is a fulfillment of >> prophecy, but like Blair, I would agree that this is only partial >> since the masses of the "lost tribes" are not yet manifested. And >> yet, in our day and to this point, they represent the part of >> "Israel" that is visible and so I feel obligated to proclaim that >> they are Israel in a world of Bible teachers who quite often have >> "appropriated" the title through various forms of replacement >> theology. Whoever else may be Israel, it is Judah that has >> remained the sole visible "Israel" in the world. >> >> All Bible interpreters worth their salt, seek to understand things >> in their original context. My modern "association of world events" >> with events from the book of Joel, despite knowing what I know of >> the context still "gives me pause" as I read it and watch current >> events. My reason for including it in my newsletter was to draw a >> correlation between the events described therein and any attempt >> to divide the land - the very subject that the world leaders now >> consider. It is not that I believe, nor did I intend to suggest >> that the Annapolis conference was a fulfillment of Joel 3, but the >> events described in that passage certainly made for an interesting >> parallel. I tend to think that God would plead with "all nations" >> anytime that they seek to divide the land. >> >> That these prophetic texts are often interpreted in different >> contexts is certain and I too participate in this ancient >> practice. The community at Qumran used these texts from the Hebrew >> prophets as they looked at their world and so do I....and so does >> your Christian teacher I would assume. >> >> We should be very careful though and perhaps this is a lesson to >> me as I send things out to be very clear on what I mean when I say >> what I say. >> >> For instance, I wonder what people would say about Peter's use of >> Joel 2:28ff to describe the events that he reportedly witnessed in >> his time and described in Acts 2. There, it seems, he sees these >> events as those described by Joel. A re-reading of those texts by >> modern readers might cause them to question whether the events >> were completely fulfilled in the upper room. Or perhaps Peter >> meant only to draw a correlation between the events he witnessed >> and the words of the ancient prophets of Israel. >> >> So to try and be more clear, let me preface my original remarks >> with a few more sentences and then attach them here again. The >> content of Joel 3 and the topics on the table of the peace talks >> have some points of congruity in my understanding. This is not to >> say that Joel 3 is fulfilled by this Annapolis meeting. There is >> however, as I understand it, a desire to chalaq the land, >> specifically Jerusalem which is inhabited by a portion of Judah. >> While those scattered are certainly Israel - the pleading of God >> to all nations is in this passage, at least in part on account of >> this parting of the land. >> >> I hope that this helps, and I would love for Blair to join this >> list. I am certain that we could learn from one another. Please >> tell Blair that I appreciate the comments. >> >> Shalom, Ross >> >> ____________________________ >> >> Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme >> > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I >> > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, >> > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic >> > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or >> > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would >> > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel >> had to >> > say about the subject that they now consider. >> > >> > >> > >> > In the third chapter of Joel we read: >> > >> > >> > >> > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when >> I shall >> > bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also >> gather >> > all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of >> Jehoshaphat, >> > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage >> > Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my >> > land. >> > >> > >> > >> > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It >> > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all >> nations is >> > brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY >> > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on >> "in the >> > news". >> >> Ross K. Nichols >> www.RootsofFaith.org >> >> >> >> >> >> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and >> top money wasters of 2007. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/06b71626/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 4 11:34:50 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:34:50 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1274172724-1196789805-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1150834076-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I understand. But my point is that you are driving a stake I the ground based on this man's understanding. Whether it is right or wrong is no more known than my own stakes, but it is a stake nevertheless and it is important for each of us to understand what we are anchoring ourselves to. That is all I am saying. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Bonnie Nelson Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:26:44 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Hi John, I am not sure but we may have to agree to disagree. I think there are some things that define being Christian... ?and all other "faiths" that I have studied. ?I think that what he said is similar to Christians saying that to be a Christian you have to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and either God or the Son of God, and in fact is part of their baptism and membership requirements, as far as I have encountered, and I have been turned away several times because of that.?However, Judaism is not so much a "faith" as it is a ethnic cultural way of thinking and behaving.? ?The Reform Rabbi here in Anchorage will not allow a bat mitzva if you are any other "faith," which is far more restrictive than my teacher, and especially he said that believing in Jesus as the Messiah would prohibit a bat mitzva. ? The most important commandment in the Hebrew scriptures to me is to think and be rational. ?Predicting far into the future doesn't seem rational to me.? If you are referring to Messianic Jews, every Jew I have talked to does not believe they are Jews, except of course the one Messianic Jew I talked to about it. ?But on the other hand my Rabbi teacher said Orthodox Jews do not consider converts other than their way to be Jews. It is all very confusing to me. But my Rabbi teacher is who I trust the most. Bonnie On Dec 4, 2007, at 5:52 AM, CARLSON, JOHN S wrote: Hey Bonnie, ? I have to jump in here with couple of points. ? I am very wary when people (regardless of their position) take it upon themselves to speak for an entire group (race, creed or color, whatever) as though what they hold to be true is universally accepted, it?s part of the reason I am in this dialogue.? While I mean no disrespect toward your Rabbi teacher I seriously doubt that he speaks for all Jewish people in his views toward prophesy, in fact I know such is not the case. ?It is a very healthy thing in my opinion to ask the question; ?Why would G-d?..(fill in the blank)??.? What we need to be careful of is filling in the blank with our own wisdom.? Just because what G-d does in any particular situation makes no sense to us in our own imaginations does not mean it is not the truth, His ways are not our ways.? It doesn?t matter whether you are Jewish, Gentile, pagan or otherwise, if we define G-d?s ways through our own imaginations then we are sure to wander off into the night, maybe forever. ?This has been proven over and over again in every attempt man has made to show G-d we know a better way, regardless of our religion. ?I have found that whenever I get to the point in these discussions that my own wisdom (or some other person?s wisdom) is about to take precedence over G-d?s word as given in the Torah, then it is then time to re-read Ecclesiastes.? It doesn?t matter who wrote it, it is wisdom for the ages. ? Again, I mean no disrespect to any of your teachers (or anyone else?s for that matter).? But it is important to remember that they and we are but men and women, HaShem is not!? I certainly don?t have the answers for you and I doubt anyone else here does but I am convinced that each of us has a responsibility to seek out our relationship with G-d individually while paying close attention to what He is trying to show us through each other. ?We walk on these ancient paths together but in our own footsteps with HaShem to guide us. ?His Word and His Spirit are the lights He has given us to walk by, let us not close our eyes to them. ? To me it is clear in the following excerpt from Jeremiah that God knows exactly who His people are; ? Jeremiah 24 ?1 After Jehoiachin [a ] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the craftsmen and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the LORD showed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the LORD. 2 One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very poor figs, so bad they could not be eaten. ?3 Then the LORD asked me, "What do you see, Jeremiah?" ??????"Figs," I answered. "The good ones are very good, but the poor ones are so bad they cannot be eaten." ?4 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 5 "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. [b ] 6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart. ?8 " 'But like the poor figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,' says the LORD, 'so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt. 9 I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, an object of ridicule and cursing, wherever I banish them. 10 I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their fathers.' Man, I don?t know of any other place we could possibly have discussions like these. ? Shalom ;-{)} ? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" ????????????????????? Bill & Ted ? -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:24 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson ? Ross, I have not received a response from Blair, my Christian teacher, but this was the response of my Rabbi teacher. Thank you again for being open to different perspectives in order to find truth!! We Jews do not see prophecy as future telling like the Christians do. Joel was describing an event happening in his lifetime and experience. It is beyond my ability to fathom why God would give a people a prophecy that would not come to pass for hundreds or thousands of years. How could they relate to such a ?prophecy?? What meaning could it possibly have for those who heard it uttered? Would you care about what is going to happen two thousand plus years from today? Think about it. I think not. It is hard enough to fathom Global warming and Climate Change prophecies (where are they mentioned in the Holy Writ or in Latter-day prophecies?). ? From:?RNDAVAR at aol.com Date:?December 2, 2007 9:18:10 PM AKST To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson Reply-To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org ? Dear Bonnie, Thanks for forwarding your Christian teacher's take on the subject. It appears that this teacher has studied the Scripture. I wish I had more time to respond tonight but must try and get some sleep. I have a very early day tomorrow and my wife and I just got in. We took the day off and I have tried to stay away from the computer. I will say in short that I, like Blair, recognize the distinction between?Judah?and?Israel. In fact this is one of the primary points that I show students of Scripture every chance I get. I am actually affiliated with the United Israel World Union, which has promoted this awareness for over 65 years (www.unitedisrael.org ). I do believe that?Judah's return to the land is a fulfillment of prophecy, but like Blair, I would agree that this is only partial since the masses of the "lost tribes" are not yet manifested. And yet, in our day and to this point, they represent the part of "Israel" that is visible and so I feel obligated to proclaim that they are?Israel?in a world of Bible teachers who quite often have "appropriated" the title through various forms of replacement theology. Whoever else may be?Israel, it is?Judah?that has remained the sole visible "Israel" in the world. All Bible interpreters worth their salt, seek to understand things in their original context. My modern "association of world events" with events from the book of Joel, despite knowing what I know of the context still "gives me pause" as I read it and watch current events. My reason for including it in my newsletter was to draw a correlation between the events described therein and any attempt to divide the land - the very subject that the world leaders now consider. It is not that I believe, nor did I intend to suggest that the?Annapolis?conference was a fulfillment of Joel 3, but the events described in that passage certainly made for an interesting parallel. I tend to think that God would plead with "all nations" anytime that they seek to divide the land. That these prophetic texts are often interpreted in different contexts is certain and I too participate in this ancient practice. The community at?Qumran?used these texts from the Hebrew prophets as they looked at their world and so do I....and so does your Christian teacher I would assume. We should be very careful though and perhaps this is a lesson to me as I send things out to be very clear on what I mean when I say what I say. For instance, I wonder what people would say about Peter's use of Joel 2:28ff to describe the events that he reportedly witnessed in his time and described in Acts 2. There, it seems, he sees these events as those described by Joel. A re-reading of those texts by modern readers might cause them to question whether the events were completely fulfilled in the upper room. Or perhaps Peter meant only to draw a correlation between the events he witnessed and the words of the ancient prophets of?Israel. So to try and be more clear, let me preface my original remarks with a few more sentences and then attach them here again. The content of Joel 3 and the topics on the table of the peace talks have some points of congruity in my understanding. This is not to say that Joel 3 is fulfilled by this?Annapolis?meeting. There is however, as I understand it, a desire to?chalaq?the land, specifically?Jerusalem?which is inhabited by a portion of?Judah. While those scattered are certainly?Israel?- the pleading of God to?all nations?is in this passage, at least in part on account of this parting of the land. I hope that this helps, and I would love for Blair to join this list. I am certain that we could learn from one another. Please tell Blair that I appreciate the comments. Shalom, Ross ____________________________ Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel had to > say about the subject that they now consider. >? >? >? > In the third chapter of Joel we read: >? >? >? > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall > bring again the captivity of?Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather >?all nations, and will bring them down into the?valley?of?Jehoshaphat, > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage >?Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and?parted my > land. >? >? >? > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all nations is > brought about because the nations "scattered?Israel" and "Parted MY > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on "in the > news". Ross K. Nichols? www.RootsofFaith.org ---------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the?hottest products ?and?top money wasters ?of 2007. _______________________________________________ ? ? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From b.nelson at alaska.com Tue Dec 4 11:43:43 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:43:43 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson In-Reply-To: <1274172724-1196789805-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1150834076-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1274172724-1196789805-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1150834076-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <991D443A-79A4-4DB3-8698-3B33C792B1C9@alaska.com> OK, thanks for that clarification. I haven't driven the stake yet, but almost. Gotta go. More later. Thanks again for that clarification. On Dec 4, 2007, at 8:34 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > I understand. But my point is that you are driving a stake I the > ground based on this man's understanding. Whether it is right or > wrong is no more known than my own stakes, but it is a stake > nevertheless and it is important for each of us to understand what > we are anchoring ourselves to. > > That is all I am saying. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bonnie Nelson > > Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:26:44 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson > > > Hi John, > I am not sure but we may have to agree to disagree. I think there > are some things that define being Christian... and all other > "faiths" that I have studied. I think that what he said is similar > to Christians saying that to be a Christian you have to believe > that Jesus is the Messiah and either God or the Son of God, and in > fact is part of their baptism and membership requirements, as far > as I have encountered, and I have been turned away several times > because of that. However, Judaism is not so much a "faith" as it is > a ethnic cultural way of thinking and behaving. > The Reform Rabbi here in Anchorage will not allow a bat mitzva if > you are any other "faith," which is far more restrictive than my > teacher, and especially he said that believing in Jesus as the > Messiah would prohibit a bat mitzva. The most important > commandment in the Hebrew scriptures to me is to think and be > rational. Predicting far into the future doesn't seem rational to me. > If you are referring to Messianic Jews, every Jew I have talked to > does not believe they are Jews, except of course the one Messianic > Jew I talked to about it. But on the other hand my Rabbi teacher > said Orthodox Jews do not consider converts other than their way to > be Jews. It is all very confusing to me. But my Rabbi teacher is > who I trust the most. > > Bonnie > > > > On Dec 4, 2007, at 5:52 AM, CARLSON, JOHN S wrote: > > > Hey Bonnie, > > > I have to jump in here with couple of points. > > > I am very wary when people (regardless of their position) take it > upon themselves to speak for an entire group (race, creed or color, > whatever) as though what they hold to be true is universally > accepted, it?s part of the reason I am in this dialogue. While I > mean no disrespect toward your Rabbi teacher I seriously doubt that > he speaks for all Jewish people in his views toward prophesy, in > fact I know such is not the case. It is a very healthy thing in my > opinion to ask the question; ?Why would G-d?..(fill in the > blank)??. What we need to be careful of is filling in the blank > with our own wisdom. Just because what G-d does in any particular > situation makes no sense to us in our own imaginations does not > mean it is not the truth, His ways are not our ways. It doesn?t > matter whether you are Jewish, Gentile, pagan or otherwise, if we > define G-d?s ways through our own imaginations then we are sure to > wander off into the night, maybe forever. This has been proven > over and over again in every attempt man has made to show G-d we > know a better way, regardless of our religion. I have found that > whenever I get to the point in these discussions that my own wisdom > (or some other person?s wisdom) is about to take precedence over G- > d?s word as given in the Torah, then it is then time to re-read > Ecclesiastes. It doesn?t matter who wrote it, it is wisdom for the > ages. > > > Again, I mean no disrespect to any of your teachers (or anyone > else?s for that matter). But it is important to remember that they > and we are but men and women, HaShem is not! I certainly don?t > have the answers for you and I doubt anyone else here does but I am > convinced that each of us has a responsibility to seek out our > relationship with G-d individually while paying close attention to > what He is trying to show us through each other. We walk on these > ancient paths together but in our own footsteps with HaShem to > guide us. His Word and His Spirit are the lights He has given us > to walk by, let us not close our eyes to them. > > > To me it is clear in the following excerpt from Jeremiah that God > knows exactly who His people are; > > > Jeremiah 24 > > 1 After Jehoiachin [a book_id=30&chapter=24&version=31#fen-NIV-19526a#fen- > NIV-19526a> ] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the > craftsmen and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from > Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the LORD > showed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the > LORD. 2 One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; > the other basket had very poor figs, so bad they could not be eaten. > 3 Then the LORD asked me, "What do you see, Jeremiah?" > "Figs," I answered. "The good ones are very good, but the > poor ones are so bad they cannot be eaten." > 4 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 5 "This is what the LORD, > the God of Israel, says: 'Like these good figs, I regard as good > the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land > of the Babylonians. [b book_id=30&chapter=24&version=31#fen-NIV-19530b#fen- > NIV-19530b> ] 6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I > will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not > tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will > give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my > people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with > all their heart. > 8 " 'But like the poor figs, which are so bad they cannot be > eaten,' says the LORD, 'so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, > his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain > in this land or live in Egypt. 9 I will make them abhorrent and an > offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, > an object of ridicule and cursing, wherever I banish them. 10 I > will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are > destroyed from the land I gave to them and their fathers.' > Man, I don?t know of any other place we could possibly have > discussions like these. > > > Shalom ;-{)} > > > > John C. > "Be Excellent to Each Other!" > Bill & Ted > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org bounces at rootsoffaith.org> [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org bounces at rootsoffaith.org> ] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:24 AM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson > > > Ross, > > I have not received a response from Blair, my Christian teacher, > but this was the response of my Rabbi teacher. Thank you again for > being open to different perspectives in order to find truth!! > > > > We Jews do not see prophecy as future telling like the Christians > do. Joel was describing an event happening in his lifetime and > experience. It is beyond my ability to fathom why God would give a > people a prophecy that would not come to pass for hundreds or > thousands of years. How could they relate to such a ?prophecy?? > What meaning could it possibly have for those who heard it uttered? > Would you care about what is going to happen two thousand plus > years from today? Think about it. I think not. It is hard enough to > fathom Global warming and Climate Change prophecies (where are they > mentioned in the Holy Writ or in Latter-day prophecies?). > > > > > > > > > > > From: RNDAVAR at aol.com > > > Date: December 2, 2007 9:18:10 PM AKST > > > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson > > > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > > > > > Dear Bonnie, > > > Thanks for forwarding your Christian teacher's take on the subject. > It appears that this teacher has studied the Scripture. I wish I > had more time to respond tonight but must try and get some sleep. I > have a very early day tomorrow and my wife and I just got in. We > took the day off and I have tried to stay away from the computer. > > > I will say in short that I, like Blair, recognize the distinction > between Judah and Israel. In fact this is one of the primary points > that I show students of Scripture every chance I get. I am actually > affiliated with the United Israel World Union, which has promoted > this awareness for over 65 years (www.unitedisrael.org www.unitedisrael.org> ). > > > I do believe that Judah's return to the land is a fulfillment of > prophecy, but like Blair, I would agree that this is only partial > since the masses of the "lost tribes" are not yet manifested. And > yet, in our day and to this point, they represent the part of > "Israel" that is visible and so I feel obligated to proclaim that > they are Israel in a world of Bible teachers who quite often have > "appropriated" the title through various forms of replacement > theology. Whoever else may be Israel, it is Judah that has remained > the sole visible "Israel" in the world. > > > All Bible interpreters worth their salt, seek to understand things > in their original context. My modern "association of world events" > with events from the book of Joel, despite knowing what I know of > the context still "gives me pause" as I read it and watch current > events. My reason for including it in my newsletter was to draw a > correlation between the events described therein and any attempt to > divide the land - the very subject that the world leaders now > consider. It is not that I believe, nor did I intend to suggest > that the Annapolis conference was a fulfillment of Joel 3, but the > events described in that passage certainly made for an interesting > parallel. I tend to think that God would plead with "all nations" > anytime that they seek to divide the land. > > > That these prophetic texts are often interpreted in different > contexts is certain and I too participate in this ancient practice. > The community at Qumran used these texts from the Hebrew prophets > as they looked at their world and so do I....and so does your > Christian teacher I would assume. > > > We should be very careful though and perhaps this is a lesson to me > as I send things out to be very clear on what I mean when I say > what I say. > > > For instance, I wonder what people would say about Peter's use of > Joel 2:28ff to describe the events that he reportedly witnessed in > his time and described in Acts 2. There, it seems, he sees these > events as those described by Joel. A re-reading of those texts by > modern readers might cause them to question whether the events were > completely fulfilled in the upper room. Or perhaps Peter meant only > to draw a correlation between the events he witnessed and the words > of the ancient prophets of Israel. > > > So to try and be more clear, let me preface my original remarks > with a few more sentences and then attach them here again. The > content of Joel 3 and the topics on the table of the peace talks > have some points of congruity in my understanding. This is not to > say that Joel 3 is fulfilled by this Annapolis meeting. There is > however, as I understand it, a desire to chalaq the land, > specifically Jerusalem which is inhabited by a portion of Judah. > While those scattered are certainly Israel - the pleading of God to > all nations is in this passage, at least in part on account of this > parting of the land. > > > I hope that this helps, and I would love for Blair to join this > list. I am certain that we could learn from one another. Please > tell Blair that I appreciate the comments. > > > Shalom, Ross > > > ____________________________ > > > Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme >> importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I >> only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, >> participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic >> heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or >> synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would >> especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel >> had to >> say about the subject that they now consider. >> >> >> >> In the third chapter of Joel we read: >> >> >> >> KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I >> shall >> bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also >> gather >> all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of >> Jehoshaphat, >> and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage >> Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my >> land. >> >> >> >> The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It >> means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all >> nations is >> brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY >> land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on >> "in the >> news". > > > Ross K. Nichols > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > > > > > > ---------------- > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products > NCID=aoltop00030000000001> and top money wasters money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money? > NCID=aoltop00030000000002> of 2007. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ From WCHATTE at entergy.com Tue Dec 4 11:53:22 2007 From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:53:22 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] On having "The Answers" In-Reply-To: <1274172724-1196789805-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net -1150834076-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: All, There was a time in the not-so-distant past that I was convinced that I had all the answers as pertained to God, and man's relationship with Him. They conveniently fit on a business card that I could hand out to others so they, too, could come to see the light as I had. It was so obvious to me - how could everyone not see it? Without getting into all the details, suffice it to say that I was rather abruptly presented with the fact that I, in fact, knew very little of God and His ways, and understood them even less. I did, however, make the first step when I came to the end of myself, and in utter desperation and the most pivotal moment in my life simply threw myself at His feet and said "Please help me, Father... I am finished trying to help myself". He answered my heart cry, and said "Get up and walk as I direct you". Years in the making, I am now only months into that sojourn with my Father. I have been granted another chance, and now my only goal in this life is to please my Father. To me, all else pales in comparison. Glenn From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Tue Dec 4 11:52:57 2007 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:52:57 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F7499BBF1843C9B20C2BB15D84319F@DickLPC> They have around here. Just think, they have Mass on Saturday also. Maybe its a slow change to the truth? The Catholics are removing the statues? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread I guess I liken a Gentile to be, as it says in Acts-------"Those who have turned to God from serving Idols". I was raised Catholic. They (Catholics) have been removing there statues from the Churches now. They leave the man on the cross though. Dick L. Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Hi Betty and Dick, It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it seems like they are defining it differently. Like when Dick said: "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to be. Confused, Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non-Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of course, all can speak for themselves. Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many horrific things have been done to them in the name of Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention that because it just came up. Shalom and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 dictionary definitions? 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2: heathen, pagan 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hey Dick, Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the Christians any longer. My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the words of encouragement, Dick. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G-d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: Denny, I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) search for Me with all your heart. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/2ae45c97/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Tue Dec 4 12:28:28 2007 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 13:28:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: <8CF719CE-F6FC-4A5C-9690-6A2497AC7CCA@alaska.com> References: <009d01c8354e$70f62580$653c66c9@bettygivin> <69668569-CFB8-4E7C-87DE-B827FE617BD4@alaska.com> <8CF719CE-F6FC-4A5C-9690-6A2497AC7CCA@alaska.com> Message-ID: <5C5BC4E55658481CACE926E79E002130@DickLPC> Bonnie ! Even Abraham was a gentile until he received the Covenant from God and they were separated from the Nations. I think there are many ways people discern "gentile". The simplest and logical to me is------ If you are of the chosen people, your not a gentile. All others are. The same way if you are a Muslim you are not an infidel, but all other peoples are. It has nothing to do with Christians or other Religions. Dick L Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Betty and Dick, and all, I am so far behind in reading these emails, but I hope I will have time today to begin to catch up and better understand your many thoughts. Some time ago my Rabbi teacher suggested I read "The Rise of Christianity," by Friend. After Jesus or Yeshua died this author talks about several sects and some called themselves Jewish Christians and some gentile Christians. (And an aside is I think I remember Jewish followers of Jesus did not believe him to be divine and did not use the word Christ, which I think comes from a Greek word.) I don't see how "turning from idols" could be a definition since Abraham turned from idols, and so I think in Genesis gentile would have been the idol worshipers. When Jesus was alive I think the definition of gentile maybe was non-Jew. Today I think some Christians think of gentile as pagan, and other Christians think of the Christians as the gentiles. Very confusing. Wikepedia agrees with Betty wth respect to how gentile is most commonly defined for today's gentile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile As in the King James Bible, from the 17th century onwards gentile was most commonly used to refer to non-Jews. This was in the context of European Christian societies with a Jewish minority. For this reason Gentile commonly meant persons brought up in the Christian faith, as opposed to the adherents of Judaism, and was not typically used to refer to non-Jews in non-Western cultures. and a minority view is as a synonym for pagan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pagan The term "pagan" is a Christian adaptation of the "gentile" of Judaism, and as such has an inherent Christian or Abrahamic bias, and pejorative connotations among Westerners,[2] comparable to heathen, and infidel, mushrik and kafir (????) in Islam. For this reason, ethnologists avoid the term "paganism," with its uncertain and varied meanings, in referring to traditional or historic faiths, preferring more precise categories such as polytheism, shamanism, pantheism, or animism. Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:36 AM, Dick L wrote: I guess I liken a Gentile to be, as it says in Acts-------"Those who have turned to God from serving Idols". I was raised Catholic. They (Catholics) have been removing there statues from the Churches now. They leave the man on the cross though. Dick L. Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Hi Betty and Dick, It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it seems like they are defining it differently. Like when Dick said: "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to be. Confused, Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non-Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of course, all can speak for themselves. Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many horrific things have been done to them in the name of Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention that because it just came up. Shalom and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 dictionary definitions? 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2: heathen, pagan 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hey Dick, Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the Christians any longer. My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the words of encouragement, Dick. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G-d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: Denny, I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) search for Me with all your heart. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/edf28d39/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Tue Dec 4 12:33:05 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:33:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread In-Reply-To: <50F7499BBF1843C9B20C2BB15D84319F@DickLPC> Message-ID: Wow! I guess I lost touch with that side of things. Gotta talk to a few family members about it. Thanks. John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:53 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread They have around here. Just think, they have Mass on Saturday also. Maybe its a slow change to the truth? The Catholics are removing the statues? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted Subject: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread I guess I liken a Gentile to be, as it says in Acts-------"Those who have turned to God from serving Idols". I was raised Catholic. They (Catholics) have been removing there statues from the Churches now. They leave the man on the cross though. Dick L. Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Definition of Gentile/changing the thread Hi Betty and Dick, It seems like non-Jew is an appropriate definition for gentile in biblical times but when people say they are a gentile, today, it seems like they are defining it differently. Like when Dick said: "Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. I think I am thinking like Dick in that I am not going to be something I can not prove to myself to be, but I sure love listening and reading all these emails. But not sure if that makes me a gentile. I really like how Dick phrased that, but if I convert to Jewish I still will refuse to be something I can not prove to be. Confused, Shalom, Bonnie On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Bonnie, I think most of us would accept the first definition of a Gentile being a non-Jew, rather than a heathen or a pagan or a non-Morman, as I do not think we have any Mormons among us. But of course, all can speak for themselves. Denny, I too understand why many rabbis would rather that the ?Gentiles? stick to their own religion and not try to delve too much into Torah or the Sabbath or the Jewish Festivals, as so many horrific things have been done to them in the name of Christianity. What I don?t think they understand, however, is that when Gentiles are truly seeking G-d, so much of what is found in mainstream Christianity can no longer be accepted as truth. So many of us feel that we have been lied to, betrayed?so where do we first go but to the teachings of Yeshua, which lead us back to the Roots of our Faith found in Torah? My experience has been that once an open and honest dialogue has been established, then most rabbis are more willing to talk to us because they understand that we are just seeking truth and not interested in proselytizing them. I attending a class today and that very subject was brought up. The rabbi who was teaching said that he had no problem with Christians or even with Messianic Jews who truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah, as long as they were not trying to proselytize him and his congregation. Just thought I would mention that because it just came up. Shalom and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva ________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Does everyone have the same definition of a gentile? Here are 3 dictionary definitions? 1gen?tile Pronunciation: \?jen-?t?(-?)l\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2: heathen , pagan 3often capitalized : a non-Mormon On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: Hey Dick, Thanks for the encouragement. My son is telling us that, too. I am content as a gentile. It's nice to know that I am welcome to participate in whatever ways I choose. Our son has had discussion with some rabbis in Israel and they get quite upset when gentiles to torah. At least some do. They told him we should stick with things Christian. It is understandable when you learn of all the things Christians have done to Jews. I stand with the Jews, not the Christians any longer. My wife is calling me for dinner. Gotta run. Thanks again for the words of encouragement, Dick. Shalom, Denny On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Dick L wrote: Denny ! You said as a Gentile ???? According to the Rabbi' s you should be learning the 7 Laws of Noah, as a Noahide. In G-d's eyes this could never be wrong. If U happen to be one of the lost tribes I'm sure we will be notified at the proper time. I do not believe in being something I'm not, so I remain happy and satisfied with remaining a gentile till I know better. My first teacher in helping me get out of Christian mythology said, "The Whole Torah was written for all of us, but all to us Gentiles". I started my search in the early 80's, learning about the Covenants G-d made in the beginnings & with the Gentiles & then the Jews. I truly believe this beginning is the way to start. I am only a tiny student, and not a scholar or even close. Just because I felt that Christianity was wrong and I luckily found someone who made sense of the Bible does not make me a lost Triber. I do think some think that????? I love listening to all, and have much respect to those WAY above me in there learning, and understanding of Torah, but I refuse to try to be something I cannot prove to be. I remain a Gentile. And I'll never leave this group even if I disagree with any or not. Love---Dick L. Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d... Thank you Glenn, I am moved by your support. Especially as I am undeserving of such a commitment. Have you ever listened to Israel National Radio? I have a program on my Treo that allows me to listen to streaming audio. Tonight I tuned in a listened to some passionate conversation about what the leadership in Israel is attempting to do to Jerusalem in efforts to establish peace and a Palestinian State. Tovia Singer and some woman were as passionate as I have ever heard. They were calling for a big sale....even a giveaway....of their leaders. ;-) As I listen to them and (oh, I also was watching Rabbi Chaim Richmam and his pleas for restoration of the temple mount. The more I listen to this stuff, the more I identify with Israel. It almost makes me feel like I am a Jew. I need to put down my stake I think. Tonight I would say that it would be along the lines of solidarity with Israel and the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Torah. As a gentile, I don't know what my place is in all of this other than to support Israel for now. The idea that we may be part of the lost tribes intrigues me but I have to admit, that I know very little about the subject. Apparently it is a topic Roots of Faith talks about often. I will listen and learn. Speaking of honored and humbled, I think it is the other way around. I am honored and humbled to be in the company of the likes of yourself and the rest of this family and hope our relationships deepen in this very high-tech format. Shavua Tov Denny On Dec 1, 2007, at 4:32 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote: Denny, I first wish to say I am blessed to have made your aquaintance. I hope God will allow me to serve you in ways that are meaningful to you. I lift you and yours to the Father and beseech Him on your behalf. As I read your note, I could completely relate. I am a blank slate as well. All the idols had to go. Ross said it well as he spoke from Joshua today - choose you this day whom you will serve - the idols of your fathers or the One true God. It has not been an easy thing... I also have stakes in the ground as John mentioned: I have but two, and they are found in both the OT and NT. Jeremiah 29:13 And you (1) shall seek Me and find Me when you (2) search for Me with all your heart. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that (1) He is, and that (2) He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All the rest must 'pass under the rod' to be judged... Thank you for sharing your walk with us. We are honored and humbled. Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Opinions expressed are mine alone. (Unless you happen to agree.) _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/1de36966/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 12:33:03 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 13:33:03 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga In-Reply-To: <20071204092612.WCLW7.237912.root@fepweb11> Message-ID: <8CA04BB3D69E45E-8B0-30A6@FWM-D18.sysops.aol.com> Dear Kim, ??? I am so very sorry for what you have endured, and continue to....My heart breaks for you...I cannot even imagine the trauma and pain you and the family have endured. ?During the course of the 'Oslo War' in Israel, two dear friends of mine were forced to bury sons who were killed in combat (May G-d Avenge Their Blood).? Matanya, in Jenin (trying to rescue his best friend), where we 'held back' the appropriate artillery support in order not to draw the condemnation of the 'world press,' and Yehuda in the Hevron Hills, in a botched Army ambush, not all that far from?where my daughter Kyra is...My tears were?not sufficient to make their parents feel any better, as my tears now cannot make you feel better either.? I tired to imagine how they coped, and never?could... ??? I wish I knew the words that could make the pain go away...I wish I knew the words of supreme comfort, but unfortunately, I don't.? May you never have to endure such sorrow again, and may you ALWAYS be comforted among the mourners for Tzion & Yerushalayim (Jerusalem).? And know - that we're all here for you, today, tomorrow, and at any time in the future. ???With the deepest of support, and the biggest of hugs, ?????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: kim.alvarado at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 9:26 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Tammy and Hanoch, I am sorry for both of your losses. I don't know what it feels like to loose a arent, I can only imagine. I lost my 3 year old son on Dec. 21, 1993. This is very hard time of year for me. Kim --- Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote: ============= ood Morning Hanoch, I must say that I am sad to know that this is the end of the Saga. I have een checking emails regularly waiting for the next installment. Once again, I et me say "Thank You" for sharing these most personal details with us. I was also very sad to hear about your mom's battle with cancer. As I old you yesterday, my dad had lung cancer and died within 4 days of being told. e had been sick for quite awhile though. My mom had died from a heart attack 3 ears earlier and dad never recovered from losing her (they had been married for 1 years). He was sick most of those 3 years.........really didn't have the ill to go on. I think that once he learned that there was cancer.............he ust gave up. I was an only child and losing both of them within 3 years of ach other has been very hard. I thank HaShem for the strength that carried me hrough those trying times. I believe that those kinds of experiences make us ho we are.........they make us stronger and let us know that we have to rely on -d from whom all things come. Just thought that I would share a few personal etails with you......thanks for listening. halom and Happy Hanukkah, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Well, having the single most important person in our life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years efore, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective n things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel ike? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as elfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if om wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to e, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was ot one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat ell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in he hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social ancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was orried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her ig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat orning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! mmediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray air (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, hey would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! ver the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream nto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which as operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell oes THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years aShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to er maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ver had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining hat Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was reaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and elling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it ould be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). he nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was omforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low ox....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that till isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as uch as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it orces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part f the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time hen you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent he girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before etting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed hat, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days f not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the ealization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only xtended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a ause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or traightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there as another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every ay you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts outs, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that urvives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people ere undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the eaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much ince those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped e enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to phraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and 'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come o understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber henomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted t NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me eappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a emonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What hould I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World ccording to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called ecky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a o-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I gnored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found hat I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair avidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I olunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it ith the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of rguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of av) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I oing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, nd then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from he Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one ewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best sed bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I ean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, ll the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, ometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in riendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. ith my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make harlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes pins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to hrow myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones round seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope he UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in ome manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on his list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with ove in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, hat resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is inishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at idreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in ebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared any personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet he right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and aise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! he's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in he so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing herut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she s in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if ou ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the udean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go n Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what e's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the irls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go o Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an sraeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex or the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know -) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the ing of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, articularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My rms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of ou, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple ount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut hell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch -------------------------------- heck out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money asters of 2007. ______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my very movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good nd I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant pon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His ill." Rabbi Nachman's isdom 2 -------------------------------- e a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/40252f1b/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Tue Dec 4 12:46:21 2007 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 13:46:21 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A very humble and heart warming story . Thank you Hanoch ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:19 PM Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Well, having the single most important person in your life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years before, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective on things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel like? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as selfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if mom wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to me, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was not one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat cell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in the hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social dancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was worried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her wig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat morning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! Immediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray hair (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, they would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! Over the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream onto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which was operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell does THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years HaShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to her maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ever had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining that Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was breaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and telling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it would be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). She nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was comforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low box....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that still isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as much as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it forces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you (after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part of the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time when you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent the girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before getting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed that, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days of not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the realization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only extended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a cause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or straightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there was another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every way you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts bouts, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that survives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people were undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the deaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much since those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped me enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to Ephraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and y'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come to understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber Phenomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, I grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted it NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me reappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a demonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What should I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World According to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called Becky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a yo-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I ignored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found that I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair Davidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I volunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it with the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of arguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of Rav) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I doing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, and then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from the Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one Jewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best used bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I mean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, all the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, sometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in friendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. With my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make Charlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes spins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to throw myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones around seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope the UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in some manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that I am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on this list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with love in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, that resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is finishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at Midreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in Hebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared many personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet the right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and raise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! She's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in the so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing Sherut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she is in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if you ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the Judean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go on Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what he's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the girls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go to Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an Israeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex for the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know :-) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the King of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, particularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My arms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of you, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple Mount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut shell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/ac4280ba/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 12:58:20 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 13:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga In-Reply-To: <589409.75722.qm@web57104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA04BEC5E8DB4A-8B0-3264@FWM-D18.sysops.aol.com> Hey Tammy - ??? I'm so sorry to hear that - being an orphan at any age, is a terrible experience.? May you be comforted among the mourners for Tzion & Yerushalayim, and know that we're all here for you. ???? Big hugs from the Big Apple, ????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tammy & Bruce Croley To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 9:36 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Hi Kim, ?? Thank you for your kind words.? Both of my parents died in the month of November.? Mom actually died on Thanksgiving day and dad died on Nov. 30........ 3 years later.? So the month of November is always hard for me.? I will keep you in my prayers this month. Shalom, Tammy kim.alvarado at charter.net wrote: Tammy and Hanoch, I am sorry for both of your losses. I don't know what it feels like to loose a parent, I can only imagine. I lost my 3 year old son on Dec. 21, 1993. This is a very hard time of year for me. Kim ---- Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote: ============= Good Morning Hanoch, I must say that I am sad to know that this is the end of the Saga. I have been checking emails regularly waiting for the next installment. Once again, I let me say "Thank You" for sharing these most personal details with us. I was also very sad to hear about your mom's battle with cancer. As I told you yesterday, my dad had lung cancer and died within 4 days of being told. He had been sick for quite awhile though. My mom had died from a heart attack 3 years earlier and dad never recovered from losing her (they had been married for 51 years). He was sick most of those 3 years.........really didn't have the will to go on. I think that once he learned that there was cancer.............he just gave up. I was an only child and losing both of them within 3 years of each other has been very hard. I thank HaShem for the strength that carried me through those trying times. I believe that those kinds of experiences make us who we are.........they make us stronger and let us know that we have to rely on G-d from whom all things come. Just thought that I would share a few personal details with you......thanks for listening. Shalom and Happy Hanukkah, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Well, having the single most important person in your life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years before, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective on things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel like? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as selfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if mom wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to me, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was not one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat cell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in the hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social dancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was worried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her wig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat morning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! Immediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray hair (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, they would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! Over the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream onto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which was operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell does THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years HaShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to her maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ever had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining that Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was breaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and telling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it would be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). She nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was comforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low box....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that still isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as much as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it forces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you (after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part of the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time when you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent the girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before getting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed that, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days of not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the realization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only extended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a cause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or straightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there was another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every way you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts bouts, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that survives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people were undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the deaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much since those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped me enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to Ephraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and y'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come to understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber Phenomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, I grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted it NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me reappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a demonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What should I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World According to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called Becky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a yo-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I ignored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found that I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair Davidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I volunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it with the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of arguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of Rav) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I doing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, and then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from the Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one Jewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best used bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I mean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, all the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, sometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in friendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. With my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make Charlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes spins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to throw myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones around seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope the UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in some manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that I am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on this list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with love in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, that resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is finishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at Midreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in Hebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared many personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet the right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and raise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! She's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in the so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing Sherut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she is in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if you ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the Judean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go on Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what he's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the girls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go to Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an Israeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex for the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know :-) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the King of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, particularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My arms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of you, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple Mount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut shell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/e7d6ac10/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 13:05:32 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:05:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA04BFC701012E-8B0-32E5@FWM-D18.sysops.aol.com> Hey Dick - ?? You are VERY welcome, thanks for taking the time to read along and be part of it.? I have given it to my eldest daughter to read, and she has reminded me of many bizarre experiences that I've had, (that I had told her about..) and that I should share with the folks on this list. ?So, B'Ezrat HaShem, G-d willing, I will write more stories (shorter though!!) to the list, as soon as time permits. ??? I feel like you folks are almost like my extended family....it's such a warm, comforting experience for me to exchange notes with everyone here.? And once again, thank you all for welcoming me....May G-d bless you all.....okay, now I'm getting mushy, better quit here... ??? Regards Dick! ??????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Dick L To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 1:46 pm Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga ??????????????? A very humble and heart warming story .? Thank you Hanoch ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:19 PM Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Well, having the single most important person in your life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years before, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective on things.? The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel like? Will they be in pain?? Will treatment?help/work? How can I help? ? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as selfish as that sounds.? Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if mom wasn't there any more?? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to me, just what she meant to the girls.? Mom, who had had such a tough life was not one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat cell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days.? The first time I visited her in the hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. ? And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social dancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home.? She was worried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her wig, she was bald.? Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat morning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat!? Immediately telling her how cute she looked!? As the little tufts of dark gray hair (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, they would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were!? Over the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream onto the sores on her back.? And they never blinked once. ? The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which was operated on.? Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell does THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years HaShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to her maker.? Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ever had.? And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining that Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. ? "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital"? My heart was breaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and telling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it would be.? She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname).? She nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight.??She was comforting ME!? I couldn't believe it. ? I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low box....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that still isn't?filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as much as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it forces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway.? But that it forces you (after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living.? Another part of the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time when you should be concerned about your appearance.? ? ?I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent the girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before getting on with my responsibilities.? As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed that, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days of not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the realization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only extended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... ? But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a cause, right?? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or straightforward as I had thought it would be.? Jumping back a few years, there was another Email list, with a name similar to this one.? But different in every way you could imagine!? It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts bouts, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that survives... ? Instead of sharing, people were attacking.? Instead of understanding, people were undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the deaf!? The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much since those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped me enormously.? I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to Ephraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and y'all are from the North!!? LOL).? And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come to understand where people like me come from, too... ? Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber Phenomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed.? I grew impatient, I grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted it NOW!? That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me reappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork.? I knew how to organization a demonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.'? What should I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?'? Start my own email list ("The World According to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called Becky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... ? I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a yo-yo.? I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I ignored it.? I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found that I couldn't.? I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair Davidy (once).? Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I volunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it with the people that I have met 'along this path.'? It created plenty of arguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of Rav) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I doing with 'those people?'? 'What did I hope to accomplish?' ? Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish?? I wrestled with that one, over and over, and then came up with a simple answer.? That someone who thought they were from the Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one Jewish friend - me.? I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best used bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I mean.... ? So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, all the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, sometimes quiet - but there.? And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in friendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to.? With my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make Charlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit.? Life sometimes spins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can.? I try to throw myself into the 'cause.' ? I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones around seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me? :-)? I hope the UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in some manner.? I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that I am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on this list.? We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with love in our hearts.? The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, that resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. ? My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is finishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at Midreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva.? She learned classic Jewish texts (in Hebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM.? Although she didn't think we shared many personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter.? She like to meet the right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and raise her family in Israel.? ? Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version!? She's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in the so-called "West Bank").? She returned to Israel this year and is doing Sherut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she is in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if you ask me), on the way to Beersheva.? She tells me that she looks out on the Judean Desert......wow, what a site, huh?? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go on Aliyah after this coming summer.? ? So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what he's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how.? Maybe when the girls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go to Israel.? Any of you have some good job ideas?? Does the UIWU want to hire an Israeli representative?? :-)?? Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex for the 'Synagogue Without Walls?'? If anyone has any ideas, just let me know? :-)?? That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the King of Judah, and THAT could be my job.? LOL??? Maybe.... ? So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, particularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point.? My arms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of you, don't hesitate to ask.? ? Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple Mount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut shell.......thanks for listening........ ? B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), ??? ??? Hanoch ? ? ? Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/58ca15b0/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Tue Dec 4 13:18:53 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:18:53 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] On having "The Answers" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Walter, I like what my father taught me that God helps those who help themselves, and others. So giving up and turning every thing over to God is not a stake I want to plant, but my Christian teacher believes that that is necessary to be a Christian and that is part of why I do not choose to be a Christian. My mother/father God (I don't think whichever picture we have in our imagination matters) is a voice inside me that I have tested over and over. For me the Hebrew and Christian scriptures are not the word of God, but words by humans as they perceived that voice within them, plus a lot of fiction written to control people or lead them into war (and Peace), but they help me find the word of God when I read them and meditate/pray, as does the scriptures Qu'ran or Bhagavad Gita, and many good books. The Torah was written after thousands of years of oral only tradition. Most Jews I talk to as well as Christians see that the reason they placed so much importance on oral was because they believed people need to learn to listen to the voice within them. I am glad they changed that "stake." But what I get from my teacher is that those words are not to be taken literally but interpreted differently according to the needs in the present, not w/o learning from the wisdom of the teachers of past traditions but more important is to make that connection with our God of ALL, not just the God the chosen people. To me turning everything over to God or to words in scriptures as others interpret them would be to betray my God. My ability to think and reason are the most precious gift from God imaginable. My Christian teacher says the same thing you said about needing to do God's will, not our own. The question then is how do you determine what that will is, by majority rule? I can not give up reasoning/logic and telling the future to me is crystal ball superstition ... but that is where I am now and I have been wrong before. My Rabbi tells me I can be a Jew and be an atheist, which I am not and he is not. I am agnostic about Jesus, but very much believe in a Creator Master planner that is loving of all people not just Jews gentiles and lost tribes. I hope I am being respectful, because I really like this group dialogue and hope to meet people some day but it is hard to escape Alaska, so expensive. Bonnie On Dec 4, 2007, at 8:53 AM, CHATTERTON, WALTER G wrote: > All, > > There was a time in the not-so-distant past that I was convinced > that I > had all the answers as pertained to God, and man's relationship with > Him. They conveniently fit on a business card that I could hand out to > others so they, too, could come to see the light as I had. It was so > obvious to me - how could everyone not see it? > > Without getting into all the details, suffice it to say that I was > rather abruptly presented with the fact that I, in fact, knew very > little of God and His ways, and understood them even less. I did, > however, make the first step when I came to the end of myself, and in > utter desperation and the most pivotal moment in my life simply threw > myself at His feet and said "Please help me, Father... I am finished > trying to help myself". > > He answered my heart cry, and said "Get up and walk as I direct you". > Years in the making, I am now only months into that sojourn with my > Father. I have been granted another chance, and now my only goal in > this > life is to please my Father. To me, all else pales in comparison. > > Glenn > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/2911c434/attachment.html From JCARLSO at entergy.com Tue Dec 4 13:32:11 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 13:32:11 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] On having "The Answers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Bonnie, We call Walter by his middle name Glenn, 'cause he likes that. ;-{)} You aren't going to offend anyone here by voicing what you believe. But there are some significantly differing opinions and beliefs in this group so you need to be prepared when others don't agree with you either, just so you know. Most of the folks in this group have heard at least some of the things you are speaking of. The point is that it only makes each of us examine our own beliefs more deeply, which is a healthy thing. So don't worry about offending but be prepared for argument. Okay? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On having "The Answers" Hi Walter, I like what my father taught me that God helps those who help themselves, and others. So giving up and turning every thing over to God is not a stake I want to plant, but my Christian teacher believes that that is necessary to be a Christian and that is part of why I do not choose to be a Christian. My mother/father God (I don't think whichever picture we have in our imagination matters) is a voice inside me that I have tested over and over. For me the Hebrew and Christian scriptures are not the word of God, but words by humans as they perceived that voice within them, plus a lot of fiction written to control people or lead them into war (and Peace), but they help me find the word of God when I read them and meditate/pray, as does the scriptures Qu'ran or Bhagavad Gita, and many good books. The Torah was written after thousands of years of oral only tradition. Most Jews I talk to as well as Christians see that the reason they placed so much importance on oral was because they believed people need to learn to listen to the voice within them. I am glad they changed that "stake." But what I get from my teacher is that those words are not to be taken literally but interpreted differently according to the needs in the present, not w/o learning from the wisdom of the teachers of past traditions but more important is to make that connection with our God of ALL, not just the God the chosen people. To me turning everything over to God or to words in scriptures as others interpret them would be to betray my God. My ability to think and reason are the most precious gift from God imaginable. My Christian teacher says the same thing you said about needing to do God's will, not our own. The question then is how do you determine what that will is, by majority rule? I can not give up reasoning/logic and telling the future to me is crystal ball superstition ... but that is where I am now and I have been wrong before. My Rabbi tells me I can be a Jew and be an atheist, which I am not and he is not. I am agnostic about Jesus, but very much believe in a Creator Master planner that is loving of all people not just Jews gentiles and lost tribes. I hope I am being respectful, because I really like this group dialogue and hope to meet people some day but it is hard to escape Alaska, so expensive. Bonnie On Dec 4, 2007, at 8:53 AM, CHATTERTON, WALTER G wrote: All, There was a time in the not-so-distant past that I was convinced that I had all the answers as pertained to God, and man's relationship with Him. They conveniently fit on a business card that I could hand out to others so they, too, could come to see the light as I had. It was so obvious to me - how could everyone not see it? Without getting into all the details, suffice it to say that I was rather abruptly presented with the fact that I, in fact, knew very little of God and His ways, and understood them even less. I did, however, make the first step when I came to the end of myself, and in utter desperation and the most pivotal moment in my life simply threw myself at His feet and said "Please help me, Father... I am finished trying to help myself". He answered my heart cry, and said "Get up and walk as I direct you". Years in the making, I am now only months into that sojourn with my Father. I have been granted another chance, and now my only goal in this life is to please my Father. To me, all else pales in comparison. Glenn _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/00762410/attachment.html From kim.alvarado at charter.net Tue Dec 4 13:51:08 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:51:08 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071204145108.35UWT.19047.root@fepweb02> Bonnie, Take a look at this site:http://www.jewfaq.org/index.htm. It is Judaism 101. One thing to check out is there information on Moshiach. Jews are definitely not of one mind. Kim ---- Bonnie Nelson wrote: ============= Hi John, I am not sure but we may have to agree to disagree. I think there are some things that define being Christian... and all other "faiths" that I have studied. I think that what he said is similar to Christians saying that to be a Christian you have to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and either God or the Son of God, and in fact is part of their baptism and membership requirements, as far as I have encountered, and I have been turned away several times because of that. However, Judaism is not so much a "faith" as it is a ethnic cultural way of thinking and behaving. The Reform Rabbi here in Anchorage will not allow a bat mitzva if you are any other "faith," which is far more restrictive than my teacher, and especially he said that believing in Jesus as the Messiah would prohibit a bat mitzva. The most important commandment in the Hebrew scriptures to me is to think and be rational. Predicting far into the future doesn't seem rational to me. If you are referring to Messianic Jews, every Jew I have talked to does not believe they are Jews, except of course the one Messianic Jew I talked to about it. But on the other hand my Rabbi teacher said Orthodox Jews do not consider converts other than their way to be Jews. It is all very confusing to me. But my Rabbi teacher is who I trust the most. Bonnie On Dec 4, 2007, at 5:52 AM, CARLSON, JOHN S wrote: > Hey Bonnie, > > > I have to jump in here with couple of points. > > > I am very wary when people (regardless of their position) take it > upon themselves to speak for an entire group (race, creed or color, > whatever) as though what they hold to be true is universally > accepted, it?s part of the reason I am in this dialogue. While I > mean no disrespect toward your Rabbi teacher I seriously doubt that > he speaks for all Jewish people in his views toward prophesy, in > fact I know such is not the case. It is a very healthy thing in my > opinion to ask the question; ?Why would G-d?..(fill in the > blank)??. What we need to be careful of is filling in the blank > with our own wisdom. Just because what G-d does in any particular > situation makes no sense to us in our own imaginations does not > mean it is not the truth, His ways are not our ways. It doesn?t > matter whether you are Jewish, Gentile, pagan or otherwise, if we > define G-d?s ways through our own imaginations then we are sure to > wander off into the night, maybe forever. This has been proven > over and over again in every attempt man has made to show G-d we > know a better way, regardless of our religion. I have found that > whenever I get to the point in these discussions that my own wisdom > (or some other person?s wisdom) is about to take precedence over G- > d?s word as given in the Torah, then it is then time to re-read > Ecclesiastes. It doesn?t matter who wrote it, it is wisdom for the > ages. > > > Again, I mean no disrespect to any of your teachers (or anyone > else?s for that matter). But it is important to remember that they > and we are but men and women, HaShem is not! I certainly don?t > have the answers for you and I doubt anyone else here does but I am > convinced that each of us has a responsibility to seek out our > relationship with G-d individually while paying close attention to > what He is trying to show us through each other. We walk on these > ancient paths together but in our own footsteps with HaShem to > guide us. His Word and His Spirit are the lights He has given us > to walk by, let us not close our eyes to them. > > > To me it is clear in the following excerpt from Jeremiah that God > knows exactly who His people are; > > > Jeremiah 24 > > 1 After Jehoiachin [a] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the > officials, the craftsmen and the artisans of Judah were carried > into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of > Babylon, the LORD showed me two baskets of figs placed in front of > the temple of the LORD. 2 One basket had very good figs, like those > that ripen early; the other basket had very poor figs, so bad they > could not be eaten. > > 3 Then the LORD asked me, "What do you see, Jeremiah?" > "Figs," I answered. "The good ones are very good, but the > poor ones are so bad they cannot be eaten." > > 4 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 5 "This is what the LORD, > the God of Israel, says: 'Like these good figs, I regard as good > the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land > of the Babylonians. [b] 6 My eyes will watch over them for their > good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up > and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I > will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be > my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with > all their heart. > > 8 " 'But like the poor figs, which are so bad they cannot be > eaten,' says the LORD, 'so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, > his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain > in this land or live in Egypt. 9 I will make them abhorrent and an > offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, > an object of ridicule and cursing, wherever I banish them. 10 I > will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are > destroyed from the land I gave to them and their fathers.' > > Man, I don?t know of any other place we could possibly have > discussions like these. > > > Shalom ;-{)} > > > John C. > > "Be Excellent to Each Other!" > > Bill & Ted > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:24 AM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson > > > Ross, > > I have not received a response from Blair, my Christian teacher, > but this was the response of my Rabbi teacher. Thank you again for > being open to different perspectives in order to find truth!! > >> We Jews do not see prophecy as future telling like the Christians >> do. Joel was describing an event happening in his lifetime and >> experience. It is beyond my ability to fathom why God would give a >> people a prophecy that would not come to pass for hundreds or >> thousands of years. How could they relate to such a ?prophecy?? >> What meaning could it possibly have for those who heard it >> uttered? Would you care about what is going to happen two thousand >> plus years from today? Think about it. I think not. It is hard >> enough to fathom Global warming and Climate Change prophecies >> (where are they mentioned in the Holy Writ or in Latter-day >> prophecies?). >> >> >> >> >> >> From: RNDAVAR at aol.com >> >> Date: December 2, 2007 9:18:10 PM AKST >> >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ROF November lesson >> >> Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> >> Dear Bonnie, >> >> Thanks for forwarding your Christian teacher's take on the >> subject. It appears that this teacher has studied the Scripture. I >> wish I had more time to respond tonight but must try and get some >> sleep. I have a very early day tomorrow and my wife and I just got >> in. We took the day off and I have tried to stay away from the >> computer. >> >> I will say in short that I, like Blair, recognize the distinction >> between Judah and Israel. In fact this is one of the primary >> points that I show students of Scripture every chance I get. I am >> actually affiliated with the United Israel World Union, which has >> promoted this awareness for over 65 years (www.unitedisrael.org). >> >> I do believe that Judah's return to the land is a fulfillment of >> prophecy, but like Blair, I would agree that this is only partial >> since the masses of the "lost tribes" are not yet manifested. And >> yet, in our day and to this point, they represent the part of >> "Israel" that is visible and so I feel obligated to proclaim that >> they are Israel in a world of Bible teachers who quite often have >> "appropriated" the title through various forms of replacement >> theology. Whoever else may be Israel, it is Judah that has >> remained the sole visible "Israel" in the world. >> >> All Bible interpreters worth their salt, seek to understand things >> in their original context. My modern "association of world events" >> with events from the book of Joel, despite knowing what I know of >> the context still "gives me pause" as I read it and watch current >> events. My reason for including it in my newsletter was to draw a >> correlation between the events described therein and any attempt >> to divide the land - the very subject that the world leaders now >> consider. It is not that I believe, nor did I intend to suggest >> that the Annapolis conference was a fulfillment of Joel 3, but the >> events described in that passage certainly made for an interesting >> parallel. I tend to think that God would plead with "all nations" >> anytime that they seek to divide the land. >> >> That these prophetic texts are often interpreted in different >> contexts is certain and I too participate in this ancient >> practice. The community at Qumran used these texts from the Hebrew >> prophets as they looked at their world and so do I....and so does >> your Christian teacher I would assume. >> >> We should be very careful though and perhaps this is a lesson to >> me as I send things out to be very clear on what I mean when I say >> what I say. >> >> For instance, I wonder what people would say about Peter's use of >> Joel 2:28ff to describe the events that he reportedly witnessed in >> his time and described in Acts 2. There, it seems, he sees these >> events as those described by Joel. A re-reading of those texts by >> modern readers might cause them to question whether the events >> were completely fulfilled in the upper room. Or perhaps Peter >> meant only to draw a correlation between the events he witnessed >> and the words of the ancient prophets of Israel. >> >> So to try and be more clear, let me preface my original remarks >> with a few more sentences and then attach them here again. The >> content of Joel 3 and the topics on the table of the peace talks >> have some points of congruity in my understanding. This is not to >> say that Joel 3 is fulfilled by this Annapolis meeting. There is >> however, as I understand it, a desire to chalaq the land, >> specifically Jerusalem which is inhabited by a portion of Judah. >> While those scattered are certainly Israel - the pleading of God >> to all nations is in this passage, at least in part on account of >> this parting of the land. >> >> I hope that this helps, and I would love for Blair to join this >> list. I am certain that we could learn from one another. Please >> tell Blair that I appreciate the comments. >> >> Shalom, Ross >> >> ____________________________ >> >> Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme >> > importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I >> > only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders, >> > participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic >> > heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or >> > synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would >> > especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel >> had to >> > say about the subject that they now consider. >> > >> > >> > >> > In the third chapter of Joel we read: >> > >> > >> > >> > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when >> I shall >> > bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also >> gather >> > all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of >> Jehoshaphat, >> > and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage >> > Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my >> > land. >> > >> > >> > >> > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It >> > means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all >> nations is >> > brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY >> > land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on >> "in the >> > news". >> >> Ross K. Nichols >> www.RootsofFaith.org >> >> >> >> >> >> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and >> top money wasters of 2007. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ From kim.alvarado at charter.net Tue Dec 4 13:54:15 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:54:15 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga In-Reply-To: <8CA04BB3D69E45E-8B0-30A6@FWM-D18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20071204145415.CDZ89.19267.root@fepweb02> Dear Hanoch, Thank you ---- youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: ============= Dear Kim, I am so very sorry for what you have endured, and continue to....My heart breaks for you...I cannot even imagine the trauma and pain you and the family have endured. During the course of the 'Oslo War' in Israel, two dear friends of mine were forced to bury sons who were killed in combat (May G-d Avenge Their Blood). Matanya, in Jenin (trying to rescue his best friend), where we 'held back' the appropriate artillery support in order not to draw the condemnation of the 'world press,' and Yehuda in the Hevron Hills, in a botched Army ambush, not all that far from where my daughter Kyra is...My tears were not sufficient to make their parents feel any better, as my tears now cannot make you feel better either. I tired to imagine how they coped, and never could... I wish I knew the words that could make the pain go away...I wish I knew the words of supreme comfort, but unfortunately, I don't. May you never have to endure such sorrow again, and may you ALWAYS be comforted among the mourners for Tzion & Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). And know - that we're all here for you, today, tomorrow, and at any time in the future. With the deepest of support, and the biggest of hugs, Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: kim.alvarado at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 9:26 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Tammy and Hanoch, I am sorry for both of your losses. I don't know what it feels like to loose a arent, I can only imagine. I lost my 3 year old son on Dec. 21, 1993. This is very hard time of year for me. Kim --- Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote: ============= ood Morning Hanoch, I must say that I am sad to know that this is the end of the Saga. I have een checking emails regularly waiting for the next installment. Once again, I et me say "Thank You" for sharing these most personal details with us. I was also very sad to hear about your mom's battle with cancer. As I old you yesterday, my dad had lung cancer and died within 4 days of being told. e had been sick for quite awhile though. My mom had died from a heart attack 3 ears earlier and dad never recovered from losing her (they had been married for 1 years). He was sick most of those 3 years.........really didn't have the ill to go on. I think that once he learned that there was cancer.............he ust gave up. I was an only child and losing both of them within 3 years of ach other has been very hard. I thank HaShem for the strength that carried me hrough those trying times. I believe that those kinds of experiences make us ho we are.........they make us stronger and let us know that we have to rely on -d from whom all things come. Just thought that I would share a few personal etails with you......thanks for listening. halom and Happy Hanukkah, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Well, having the single most important person in our life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years efore, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective n things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel ike? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as elfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if om wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to e, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was ot one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat ell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in he hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social ancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was orried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her ig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat orning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! mmediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray air (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, hey would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! ver the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream nto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which as operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell oes THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years aShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to er maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ver had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining hat Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was reaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and elling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it ould be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). he nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was omforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low ox....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that till isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as uch as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it orces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part f the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time hen you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent he girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before etting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed hat, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days f not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the ealization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only xtended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a ause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or traightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there as another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every ay you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts outs, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that urvives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people ere undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the eaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much ince those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped e enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to phraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and 'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come o understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber henomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted t NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me eappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a emonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What hould I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World ccording to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called ecky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a o-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I gnored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found hat I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair avidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I olunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it ith the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of rguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of av) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I oing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, nd then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from he Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one ewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best sed bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I ean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, ll the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, ometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in riendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. ith my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make harlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes pins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to hrow myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones round seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope he UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in ome manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on his list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with ove in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, hat resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is inishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at idreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in ebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared any personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet he right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and aise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! he's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in he so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing herut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she s in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if ou ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the udean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go n Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what e's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the irls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go o Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an sraeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex or the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know -) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the ing of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, articularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My rms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of ou, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple ount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut hell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch -------------------------------- heck out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money asters of 2007. ______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my very movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good nd I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant pon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His ill." Rabbi Nachman's isdom 2 -------------------------------- e a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 From dennyj at mac.com Tue Dec 4 14:22:08 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 12:22:08 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me In-Reply-To: <20071204145415.CDZ89.19267.root@fepweb02> References: <20071204145415.CDZ89.19267.root@fepweb02> Message-ID: <27A498A2-0116-1000-95B6-09D4032DF701-Webmail-10013@mac.com> Hello all, I have been at work today while being deep in thought regarding the approach of Hanukkah which I have only celebrated once before. My earlier experience was more of an education of Jewish tradition. This time around, I am trying to make it more personal. While listening to Israel National Radio while working and again being refreshed on the history of this holiday, it became clear to me what Hanukkah means to me. In a nutshell, Hanukkah typically can be summed up by the phrase "it is a fight against Hellenism". Personalizing this fact means to me, To fight and resist the Greek mindset in my quest to understand the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I will be thinking of this as we celebrate Hanukkah this year. How about y'all. Happy Hanukkah! Denny and Mary Joyce From WCHATTE at entergy.com Tue Dec 4 14:34:05 2007 From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:34:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me In-Reply-To: <27A498A2-0116-1000-95B6-09D4032DF701-Webmail-10013@mac.com> Message-ID: I can totally relate to that struggle, Denny. I wage it daily myself. -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:22 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me Hello all, I have been at work today while being deep in thought regarding the approach of Hanukkah which I have only celebrated once before. My earlier experience was more of an education of Jewish tradition. This time around, I am trying to make it more personal. While listening to Israel National Radio while working and again being refreshed on the history of this holiday, it became clear to me what Hanukkah means to me. In a nutshell, Hanukkah typically can be summed up by the phrase "it is a fight against Hellenism". Personalizing this fact means to me, To fight and resist the Greek mindset in my quest to understand the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I will be thinking of this as we celebrate Hanukkah this year. How about y'all. Happy Hanukkah! Denny and Mary Joyce _______________________________________________ From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 14:55:12 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 15:55:12 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me In-Reply-To: <27A498A2-0116-1000-95B6-09D4032DF701-Webmail-10013@mac.com> References: <20071204145415.CDZ89.19267.root@fepweb02> <27A498A2-0116-1000-95B6-09D4032DF701-Webmail-10013@mac.com> Message-ID: Hi Denny, I'm smiling because many years ago - when my husband and I were deep into the Charismatic movement of Christianity - I started praying fervently, "Father, I just want to get the Greek out!" I really didn't know about Hanukkah at that time, but the desire of my heart was to rid myself of the Greek mindset, and develop a Hebraic one in its stead. I surely didn't anticipate where that prayer would eventually lead, but I'm glad it did! Thank you for reminding me of it. I'm going to start praying it again. You are so right, Denny. Hanukkah is ALL about our struggle against Hellenism - to this very day! I wish your family a very Happy Hanukkah, Pat> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:22:08 -0800> From: dennyj at mac.com> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me> > Hello all,> > I have been at work today while being deep in thought regarding the approach of Hanukkah which I have only celebrated once before. My earlier experience was more of an education of Jewish tradition. This time around, I am trying to make it more personal. > While listening to Israel National Radio while working and again being refreshed on the history of this holiday, it became clear to me what Hanukkah means to me. In a nutshell, Hanukkah typically can be summed up by the phrase "it is a fight against Hellenism". Personalizing this fact means to me, To fight and resist the Greek mindset in my quest to understand the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I will be thinking of this as we celebrate Hanukkah this year.> > How about y'all.> > Happy Hanukkah!> Denny and Mary Joyce> > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/0b0ab22f/attachment.html From tbear001 at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 4 15:09:53 2007 From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net (roy landry) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 15:09:53 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me In-Reply-To: References: <27A498A2-0116-1000-95B6-09D4032DF701-Webmail-10013@mac.com> Message-ID: <007401c836ba$041437f0$6402a8c0@roysoffice> I really liked you thoughts on Hanukkah. With great interest I have read all of your thoughts on Hanukkah. About a dozen friends and I are going to try to celebrate Hanukkah for the first time over the next 8 days. None of us are Jewish. We really are the blind leading the blind. I must say that I still don't understand why it is so important. However I still rejoice over what I learned about Shabot as I tried to walk through it. Shabot reminds me of God's word and I really enjoy that. To physically walk out God's commands has been a blessing to me. Do I walk it out properly? No, but I am giving it the best I have. I don't care how I am categorized, I just know as I live Shabot I love and remember and rejoice in God more. Hallelujah!!! The joy it give me is enough. Thanks again for all of your comments on the Dialogue. Roy -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CHATTERTON, WALTER G Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me I can totally relate to that struggle, Denny. I wage it daily myself. -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:22 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me Hello all, I have been at work today while being deep in thought regarding the approach of Hanukkah which I have only celebrated once before. My earlier experience was more of an education of Jewish tradition. This time around, I am trying to make it more personal. While listening to Israel National Radio while working and again being refreshed on the history of this holiday, it became clear to me what Hanukkah means to me. In a nutshell, Hanukkah typically can be summed up by the phrase "it is a fight against Hellenism". Personalizing this fact means to me, To fight and resist the Greek mindset in my quest to understand the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I will be thinking of this as we celebrate Hanukkah this year. How about y'all. Happy Hanukkah! Denny and Mary Joyce _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1170 - Release Date: 12/4/2007 10:52 AM From JCARLSO at entergy.com Tue Dec 4 15:13:16 2007 From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 15:13:16 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah in New Orleans In-Reply-To: <20071204024958.L50Z2.228731.root@fepweb05> Message-ID: Where at Kim? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" ????????????????????? Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim.alvarado at charter.net Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM To: dialogue: rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah in New Orleans Anyone who is close enough to come. Every year a giant hannukiah sp? is lit down by the river with live music, latkes, etc. This year's event will be held next Sunday, Dec. 9. Kim _______________________________________________ From kim.alvarado at charter.net Tue Dec 4 15:42:06 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 16:42:06 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah in New Orleans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071204164206.XAMJL.27368.root@fepweb02> The event is sponsored by the Chabad this year. Every year a different synagogue sponsors. Here's the website: http://www.chabadneworleans.com/ Kim ---- "CARLSON wrote: ============= Where at Kim? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" Bill & Ted -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim.alvarado at charter.net Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM To: dialogue: rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah in New Orleans Anyone who is close enough to come. Every year a giant hannukiah sp? is lit down by the river with live music, latkes, etc. This year's event will be held next Sunday, Dec. 9. Kim _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From kim.alvarado at charter.net Tue Dec 4 15:43:33 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 13:43:33 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me In-Reply-To: <27A498A2-0116-1000-95B6-09D4032DF701-Webmail-10013@mac.com> Message-ID: <20071204164333.HUGL1.27468.root@fepweb02> Very appropriate! Kim ---- Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson wrote: ============= Hello all, I have been at work today while being deep in thought regarding the approach of Hanukkah which I have only celebrated once before. My earlier experience was more of an education of Jewish tradition. This time around, I am trying to make it more personal. While listening to Israel National Radio while working and again being refreshed on the history of this holiday, it became clear to me what Hanukkah means to me. In a nutshell, Hanukkah typically can be summed up by the phrase "it is a fight against Hellenism". Personalizing this fact means to me, To fight and resist the Greek mindset in my quest to understand the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I will be thinking of this as we celebrate Hanukkah this year. How about y'all. Happy Hanukkah! Denny and Mary Joyce _______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 16:59:26 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:59:26 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Best wishes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CA04E073DAB738-E18-5EBF@WEBMAIL-DG04> Dear John - ??? What can I say?? Your note has left me speechless - which is a very, very rare occurrence for me!? :-)? It's interesting how much we all seem to have in common with each other.? In fact, one of the things I always remembered discussing with Ross is that we should all focus on what we have in COMMON with each other, then what divides, or separates us.? There was a time, a year, or two ago, that Ross and I seemed to have parallel events happening in each of our lives, simultaneously. Coincidence?? Maybe, but I don't think so.... ???? We can easily splinter, we can easily stake our claims to various pieces of theological 'turf,' but WHY would we want to do that?? You know, when I began working with people who believed themselves from the Lost Tribes, did you know how I was CERTAIN we (they and Judah) were related?? It's because there were SO MANY FACTIONS of them, all distrusting each other, just like the Jewish world is!? There were those who believed Yeshua to be G-d, those who felt he was and/or is?the Messiah, that he was a rebel leader who fought the Roman occupation, those who pronounced the 'divine name' one way, and those that pronounced it the other way....and on, and on......and I'm not exaggerating believe me!?? :-)? ?? If we are truly interested in DIALOGUE, then we need to talk, share and learn.? We can reject, disagree, or think that an idea presented was the dumbest thing on the planet, but there's?no need to disparage people...and that's why I think I feel so?very comfortable with this group. Yes, John, let's walk down this road together, and see what HaShem has in store for us....but quoting Bette Davis, "..we better buckle up, 'cause it's going to be a bumpy ride!"?? :-)? Or maybe the horrific pile of poop I've been wading through this year has been the tough time, and it will be 'smooth sailing' from here?on in...who knows?? ??I truly don't think my 'story' was all that amazing, but I'm glad that you and the group enjoyed reading it, and found it meaningful, in some manner.? I have more anecdotes to share, but I hope your reference that, "I suspect there is still more to add though" means that I will have a productive future - for the Torah of Israel, the Land of Israel, and the people of Israel (defined in the wide sense that we now know it to be).? With friends like you, how can I not succeed?? ?? Very best regards John! ???????????? Your pal Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CARLSON, JOHN S To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 9:06 am Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Best wishes Well Hanoch, ? I read emails (including your final installments) up until 12:30 last night.? My head was spinning and I had to go to bed.? Your story is amazing.? When I read 33 Candles myself, the thing that struck me hardest was how David just threw himself out to G-d, even through some of the most crazy stuff I?ve ever heard of.? He simply just trusted G-d and believed that He was going to accomplish His purpose in his life.? From your story I can say that I get that same feeling.? While I can?t say that I have been a model of that level of faith in my life, I want to be.? I believe that is the kind of faith Abraham showed, even when all the world thinks you?re out of your mind you just have to follow G-d?s lead.? Now I know that there are many that claim to be doing G-d?s will out there and really are nuts, I?m not talking about that, I?m talking about having the courage to live as G-d has told us we should live, whether it complies with somebody?s catechism (and I don?t mean just in the Catholic sense) or not. ? Anyway, it seems that we are both at about the same point in our lives. ?My kids are grown and finally on their own (after several botched launch attempts).? I have been given a separation package from my job so I am essentially free to reinvent my career, I have some bills to pay off, but for the most part my responsibility structure has taken a dramatic turn over the last year. ? There are other similarities as well.? My own mother died a little over a year ago. ?She had lung cancer (smoking) as well but beat it.? She died after a long, very traumatic series of events which ended with submission to hardening of the arteries (also smoking related).? It was a very hard, emotional time for me as well.? No matter how hard you try to be there for them, in your own heart it just never seems like it was enough. ? Anyway, I am looking forward to talking with you and working with you in whatever capacity G-d has in store for us.? I am open to G-d?s lead and much more wary of man?s wisdom than I ever was.? Like you, He has brought me here and all of us together for a reason and I am excited that while I may not be able to see exactly where He is leading us, I know that when we look back along the ancient paths we will be even more amazed at what He has accomplished in and through us. ? Thank you for sharing this amazing story with us. ?I suspect there is still more to add though. ? Shalom my brother, let?s walk together for a distance and see what HaShem has to show us. ? John C. "Be Excellent to Each Other!" ????????????????????? Bill & Ted ? -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 6:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Best wishes ? Shalom to all, ? ??? A? Hanukah Sameach (Happy) to you and your families, may it be joyous and filled with love! ? ??? Luv y'all, ??? Hanukah Hanoch Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/4d945c3d/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Tue Dec 4 17:00:54 2007 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:00:54 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Check out MyJewishLearning.com - Holidays: Hanukkah History Message-ID: Here is a link to a good site on everything you need to know about Hanukkah. Check it out. _Click here: MyJewishLearning.com - Holidays: Hanukkah History_ (http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Hanukkah/TO_Hanukkah_History.htm) Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/536ece52/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Dec 4 17:20:03 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Message-ID: <77DFB0E3-71B1-4EB2-9EAA-0C96CAD802BF@earthlink.net> I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today--just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight days, read through and study it... The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that the Temple be rebuilt and that the constitution of the new state of Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read carefully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the ground. And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence. Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAKE the heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only briefly alludes. This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November. He has EIGHT night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world dominion! Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, likely in some sequential order, both the preliminary events, and the detailed climax, of the "time of the end." So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir Isaac Newton so much. During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption. Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it begins: "I have returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential meaning of THIS DAY. I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months before his birth in September 3 BCE. But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The Torah reading was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it turned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especially Ezekiel, that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph is yet to come, "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai refers remains to be seen. It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the "countdown" begins. I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for any of us, and a time of new beginnings. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/86020d9b/attachment.html From tbear001 at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 4 17:21:41 2007 From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net (roy landry) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:21:41 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out MyJewishLearning.com - Holidays: HanukkahHistory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001401c836cc$6de8a2d0$6402a8c0@roysoffice> I am still hung up over celebrating a non Torah feast. But if my wife is interested in doing this then what can it hurt. For me that is an answer to prayer. Besides I might learn something. I just glanced at the article you sent. I now understand where the 8 days came from. I assume that is also where the Menorah changed from 7 to 8 lamps sometimes I see them with 9 lamps. The Dialogue is great except I find my self running to the web to understand a lot of what is being said. For an example FFOZ. That took me a while to figure out. I need to find some time to see who they are and what they believe. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 5:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Check out MyJewishLearning.com - Holidays: HanukkahHistory Here is a link to a good site on everything you need to know about Hanukkah. Check it out. Click here: MyJewishLearning.com - Holidays: Hanukkah History Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org _____ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/b41f1f48/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Tue Dec 4 17:27:02 2007 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen Dennis) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:27:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me References: <27A498A2-0116-1000-95B6-09D4032DF701-Webmail-10013@mac.com> <007401c836ba$041437f0$6402a8c0@roysoffice> Message-ID: <007701c836cd$2d2b30e0$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Roy, Although knowing some of the history behind the celebration of Hanukkah, we did not fully grasp what relevance this celebration had to the people of Israel. Tonight Sharon and I read the first 3 chapters of 1Macabbees. What an inspiring and uplifting story. True men of valour ... and a testament to the love of Yah's law and ways. I believe we understand the signigicance of this celebration now and am looking forward to the rest. Shalom Stephen and Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: "roy landry" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 5:09 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me >I really liked you thoughts on Hanukkah. With great interest I have read > all of your thoughts on Hanukkah. About a dozen friends and I are going > to > try to celebrate Hanukkah for the first time over the next 8 days. None > of > us are Jewish. We really are the blind leading the blind. I must say > that > I still don't understand why it is so important. However I still rejoice > over what I learned about Shabot as I tried to walk through it. Shabot > reminds me of God's word and I really enjoy that. To physically walk out > God's commands has been a blessing to me. Do I walk it out properly? No, > but I am giving it the best I have. I don't care how I am categorized, I > just know as I live Shabot I love and remember and rejoice in God more. > Hallelujah!!! The joy it give me is enough. > > Thanks again for all of your comments on the Dialogue. > > Roy > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CHATTERTON, WALTER > G > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:34 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me > > I can totally relate to that struggle, Denny. I wage it daily myself. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny and Mary > Joyce Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:22 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What Hanukkah means to me > > > Hello all, > > I have been at work today while being deep in thought regarding the > approach of Hanukkah which I have only celebrated once before. My > earlier experience was more of an education of Jewish tradition. This > time around, I am trying to make it more personal. > While listening to Israel National Radio while working and again being > refreshed on the history of this holiday, it became clear to me what > Hanukkah means to me. In a nutshell, Hanukkah typically can be summed up > by the phrase "it is a fight against Hellenism". Personalizing this fact > means to me, To fight and resist the Greek mindset in my quest to > understand the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I will > be thinking of this as we celebrate Hanukkah this year. > > How about y'all. > > Happy Hanukkah! > Denny and Mary Joyce > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1170 - Release Date: > 12/4/2007 > 10:52 AM > > > _______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 18:10:05 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:10:05 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A quick Hanukkah Thought Message-ID: <8CA04EA52AC1566-E18-62D7@WEBMAIL-DG04> Shalom to all - ??? Hanukkah Sameach - Happy Hanukkah!!? I just wanted to share a quick Hanukkah thought that I heard a few years ago.? And it goes like this: What was the miracle of Hanukkah?? Some say that it was the fact that the 1 jar of oil burned for 8 days... Others say it was the "victory of the few against the many.." But the real miracle?? It was that when Mattityahu gave a command, ALL of his sons followed him.? No one asked, "do I have to?"? Anyone who's ever been a parent can truly relate to this. May we all be blessed with children (and grandchildren!) who know the difference between what's important and what's not, and will follow us, when we need them...... ??????????? Hanoch ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/435475a2/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 18:13:58 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:13:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A quick Hanukkah Thought In-Reply-To: <8CA04EA52AC1566-E18-62D7@WEBMAIL-DG04> References: <8CA04EA52AC1566-E18-62D7@WEBMAIL-DG04> Message-ID: AMEN AMEN!!!!!! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:10:05 -0500From: youngbarzel at aol.comSubject: [Dialogue] A quick Hanukkah ThoughtShalom to all - Hanukkah Sameach - Happy Hanukkah!! I just wanted to share a quick Hanukkah thought that I heard a few years ago. And it goes like this:What was the miracle of Hanukkah? Some say that it was the fact that the 1 jar of oil burned for 8 days...Others say it was the "victory of the few against the many.."But the real miracle? It was that when Mattityahu gave a command, ALL of his sons followed him. No one asked, "do I have to?" Anyone who's ever been a parent can truly relate to this.May we all be blessed with children (and grandchildren!) who know the difference between what's important and what's not, and will follow us, when we need them...... Hanoch More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/e8d15d78/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 4 19:11:41 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:11:41 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A quick Hanukkah Thought Message-ID: <120520070111.19711.4755FACD00032FA900004CFF22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> HANUKKAH SAMEACH!! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Shalom to all - Hanukkah Sameach - Happy Hanukkah!! I just wanted to share a quick Hanukkah thought that I heard a few years ago. And it goes like this: What was the miracle of Hanukkah? Some say that it was the fact that the 1 jar of oil burned for 8 days... Others say it was the "victory of the few against the many.." But the real miracle? It was that when Mattityahu gave a command, ALL of his sons followed him. No one asked, "do I have to?" Anyone who's ever been a parent can truly relate to this. May we all be blessed with children (and grandchildren!) who know the difference between what's important and what's not, and will follow us, when we need them...... Hanoch More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/63674f71/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Dec 4 20:21:31 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:21:31 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga & Hanukkah In-Reply-To: <20071204145415.CDZ89.19267.root@fepweb02> Message-ID: <023301c836e5$8ce99c70$653c66c9@bettygivin> Thank-you again, so very much, Hanoch, for sharing your story, and for your kind words of love and comfort towards my daughter, Kim, regarding the death of her little son, and the death of both of Tammy's parents. I think your story and your words of love and compassion struck a real chord in all of us. Thank-you for being here as our friend and as our brother Judah, and for putting up with some of us all these years, and for your cyber-space hugs! We are like an extended family, different in our personalities and perspectives, but basically one in our roots. Seeing that you not only recognize that, but also that you are so drawn to us is so rare in Jewish circles. You are loved and appreciated. I was so sad when I read of your mother's death, Hanoch...I haven't figured out all the why's of pain and suffering, and the emotions that go with it and I probably won't; but I have seen how it can bring about the very best and the very worst in people. It sounds like your mother was a most beautiful person and I would imagine that she passed on a number of her traits, such as integrity, strength, fortitude, courage and tenacity...as well as kindness and love, which no doubt you have passed on to your girls, as was evidenced in the loving way they cared for your mother when she was ill. When both parents are gone, it does leave you with such a sense of "aloneness," or it did me... we are nobody's sons or daughters anymore, and that feels so very strange and numb. I am sure that you can identify with that, Bonnie, and all those others who have lost their parents. My heart goes out to you as well, for having lost both your parents in such close proximity. I cannot imagine how difficult that must have been for you. And I think you lost your mother, this past year, did you not John? It seems that there is a lot of pain going around, but a lot of love to help combat it. Certain times of the year are difficult for us when we think of those we love that are no longer with us. Our tears never seem enough, our words never adequate to express all that is in our hearts, but we still attempt because we care for one another. James and I lost our mother just a few months ago. Hazel would have been 91 years old today, December 4th...and Kim's son, Joshua Lee Thomas, who was only 3 when he died in 1993, would have been 17! Time does pass, but I am sure that not a day goes by when she does not think of him...death is just a hard reality that all of us have to deal with... May we all be comforted and encouraged as we kindle our lights this Hanukkah season...with each succeeding night, may we dispel a little more brightness, until all eight lights (actually nine) are shining brightly! I know Hanoch or someone has a teaching on the number 8 that they could share. Hanukkah Sameach! Betty/Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim.alvarado at charter.net Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:54 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Cc: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Dear Hanoch, Thank you ---- youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: ============= Dear Kim, I am so very sorry for what you have endured, and continue to....My heart breaks for you...I cannot even imagine the trauma and pain you and the family have endured. During the course of the 'Oslo War' in Israel, two dear friends of mine were forced to bury sons who were killed in combat (May G-d Avenge Their Blood). Matanya, in Jenin (trying to rescue his best friend), where we 'held back' the appropriate artillery support in order not to draw the condemnation of the 'world press,' and Yehuda in the Hevron Hills, in a botched Army ambush, not all that far from where my daughter Kyra is...My tears were not sufficient to make their parents feel any better, as my tears now cannot make you feel better either. I tired to imagine how they coped, and never could... I wish I knew the words that could make the pain go away...I wish I knew the words of supreme comfort, but unfortunately, I don't. May you never have to endure such sorrow again, and may you ALWAYS be comforted among the mourners for Tzion & Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). And know - that we're all here for you, today, tomorrow, and at any time in the future. With the deepest of support, and the biggest of hugs, Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: kim.alvarado at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 9:26 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The end of the Saga Tammy and Hanoch, I am sorry for both of your losses. I don't know what it feels like to loose a arent, I can only imagine. I lost my 3 year old son on Dec. 21, 1993. This is very hard time of year for me. Kim --- Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote: ============= ood Morning Hanoch, I must say that I am sad to know that this is the end of the Saga. I have een checking emails regularly waiting for the next installment. Once again, I et me say "Thank You" for sharing these most personal details with us. I was also very sad to hear about your mom's battle with cancer. As I old you yesterday, my dad had lung cancer and died within 4 days of being told. e had been sick for quite awhile though. My mom had died from a heart attack 3 ears earlier and dad never recovered from losing her (they had been married for 1 years). He was sick most of those 3 years.........really didn't have the ill to go on. I think that once he learned that there was cancer.............he ust gave up. I was an only child and losing both of them within 3 years of ach other has been very hard. I thank HaShem for the strength that carried me hrough those trying times. I believe that those kinds of experiences make us ho we are.........they make us stronger and let us know that we have to rely on -d from whom all things come. Just thought that I would share a few personal etails with you......thanks for listening. halom and Happy Hanukkah, Tammy YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Well, having the single most important person in our life be diagnosed with cancer (mom had quit smoking more then 10 years efore, but the previous 35+ took their toll), sure puts a different perspective n things. The first thoughts of course are panic - for them, what it will feel ike? Will they be in pain? Will treatment help/work? How can I help? Then you begin to get around (eventually..) about what it will mean for YOU, as elfish as that sounds. Kyra was just 7, Ayala was 10, how would I manage if om wasn't there any more? I didn't even stop to think about what she meant to e, just what she meant to the girls. Mom, who had had such a tough life was ot one to quit, she started chemo, even though it was the same aggressive 'oat ell' type cancer that took my dad in 50 days. The first time I visited her in he hospital, I walked passed her bed, I didn't even recognize her. And mom fought, and fought, and hung in there, going back to dancing (social ancing) and being a volunteer in a hospital AND a nursing home. She was orried that the girls would be frightened when they first saw that under her ig, she was bald. Well, the kids rushed into their room to get her up Shabbat orning before she had time to put her wig on; they barely skipped a beat! mmediately telling her how cute she looked! As the little tufts of dark gray air (no longer the auburn color it used to be..) began to slowly grow back, hey would massage her head, and tell her how cute her little 'fozzies' were! ver the course of her radiation treatments, the girls lovingly massaged cream nto the sores on her back. And they never blinked once. The cancer was held in check, and then there was the stomach cancer....which as operated on. Then the lung cancer migrated to the stomach (how the hell oes THAT happen?!), and then, eventually to her brain...four and a half years aShem 'loaned' her the time to be with us, and then she returned her soul to er maker. Prior to that, I had the most difficult conversation that I have ver had. And that was sitting, soon-to-be 12 year old Kyra, and explaining hat Grandma Sylvia wasn't going to be able to come to her Bat Mitzva. "If she can't come to the shul, let's do it in the hospital" My heart was reaking, looking into her big, soulful brown eyes and shaking my head, and elling her that her beloved Grandma couldn't make her Bat Mitzva WHEREVER it ould be. She was dying, and I couldn't say those words to Kee (her nickname). he nodded, and said, she understood.....and she hugged me tight. She was omforting ME! I couldn't believe it. I sat shiva (the initial 7 day mourning period), where you sit on a low ox....people came to pay their respects...but I just felt a void; one that till isn't filled, and remains empty...until someone can come along and care as uch as she did... One unique element to the ritual of 'shiva,' is not that it orces you to mourn - hell, you'd be doing that anyway. But that it forces you after 7 days) to GET UP, and get back to the tasks of the living. Another part f the shiva within Judaism, is that you cover the mirrors - it's not a time hen you should be concerned about your appearance. I was alone the last morning to shiva (it ended for me at midday), I had sent he girls to school, and I used that time for my final 'reflections' before etting on with my responsibilities. As I uncovered the mirrors, I noticed hat, for the first time there were gray flecks in my beard (it had been 8 days f not shaving at that point); I was no longer a kid.... But also, the ealization set in, that I was no longer anyone's kid....my genetic line only xtended in the direction of my children...my parents were gone....... But, I had my girls, and having a 'movement' to be involved with, I had a ause, right? Well, 'helping' the Lost Tribers wasn't nearly as easy, or traightforward as I had thought it would be. Jumping back a few years, there as another Email list, with a name similar to this one. But different in every ay you could imagine! It was almost like one of those mixed martial arts outs, where you're locked in a steel octagon, and the winner is the one that urvives... Instead of sharing, people were attacking. Instead of understanding, people ere undercutting...the only 'dialogue' it created, was the dialogue of the eaf! The Jews on the list were eventually asked to leave...I've learned much ince those days, and honestly, having read the NT a number of times, has helped e enormously. I have grown over the years to learn how to be closer to phraim...to my northern cousins (isn't it a riot that I'm the Southerner, and 'all are from the North!! LOL). And my dear friend and brother Ross, has come o understand where people like me come from, too... Having a movement personality, I was looking for ACTION...while the 'Triber henomenon' moved at a snails pace, one at a time, it seemed. I grew impatient, grew frustrated....yes, I too was a dreamer, but I wanted ACTION, and I wanted t NOW! That's why those of you that have known me for a while have seen me eappear and then seem to fade into the woodwork. I knew how to organization a emonstration for Soviet Jewry, but I didn't know how to help a 'Triber.' What hould I do, open up a 'Triber's R Us?' Start my own email list ("The World ccording to Hanoch")? I called James, I called Dennis, I called Ross, I called ecky, I called Dell, and I nagged, and nagged.... I jumped more into the UIWU, and then I jumped out...back and forth like a o-yo. I reread David Horowitz's 33 Candles again, and again, and then I gnored it. I kept trying to walk away from this Lost Tribe stuff, but found hat I couldn't. I would go to Israel, and meet up with John Hulley, or Yair avidy (once). Everytime I spoke with anyone about something Jewish (I olunteered for a number of organizations, once again..), I kept comparing it ith the people that I have met 'along this path.' It created plenty of rguments for me among my CO-religionists, and among some Rabbanim (plural of av) that I know and respect, but won't name....they wanted to know - what was I oing with 'those people?' 'What did I hope to accomplish?' Yeah, what DID I hope to accomplish? I wrestled with that one, over and over, nd then came up with a simple answer. That someone who thought they were from he Lost Tribes, or a seeker of the 'Ancient Path', would have at least one ewish friend - me. I might serve as a resource (New York still has the best sed bookstores in the country!), or I could just 'be there,' if you know what I ean.... So I finally made it to the UIWU meeting in Charlotte a few years ago (hence, ll the 'fat' pics of me), and have been on the UIWU list, sometimes active, ometimes quiet - but there. And now, I'm here...holding out my hand in riendship (actually, I'm much more into BIG hugs) for anyone who wants to. ith my life as it currently stands, it's highly unlikely that I will make harlotte this year - but you KNOW I will be there in spirit. Life sometimes pins out of control, we just try to deal with it....the best we can. I try to hrow myself into the 'cause.' I'm still looking to be involved in a Lost Tribe movement, but that only ones round seem to be church or ministry related, and that's not for me :-) I hope he UIWU can serve as a catalyst, and I hope that James will let me help, in ome manner. I don't know what my role is in all of this is, but I DO know that am drawn to this movement, that I am DRAWN to these people - you, the folks on his list. We don't always have to agree, but let's do it with a smile and with ove in our hearts. The love that our distant ancestors lost for each other, hat resulted in exile, and the destruction of our beloved Holy Temple. My lovely girls have reached a crucial point in their lives - Ayala, now 22 is inishing college (Deans List!), and has learned for two years in Israel at idreshet HaRova - a girls yeshiva. She learned classic Jewish texts (in ebrew!) sometimes from 8:00AM - 10:00PM. Although she didn't think we shared any personality traits, she truly IS her father's daughter. She like to meet he right guy (don't ask ME for relationship advice!) and go on Aliyah, and aise her family in Israel. Kyra, my personal "mini-me" looks just like me - just a better looking version! he's 19, and learned in Israel at Orot, which is in the Shomron (Samaria, in he so-called "West Bank"). She returned to Israel this year and is doing herut Leumi (National Service), volunteering to help the Land of Israel....she s in Beit Yatir, which is in the Hevron Mountains (they're more like hills, if ou ask me), on the way to Beersheva. She tells me that she looks out on the udean Desert......wow, what a site, huh? She is planning (G-d Willing) to go n Aliyah after this coming summer. So, my girls will soon be set....just leaving lil ol' me to figure out what e's doing....I want to help the Tribes, but I don't know how. Maybe when the irls are set up (next year, or two), I can just finally pick myself up and go o Israel. Any of you have some good job ideas? Does the UIWU want to hire an sraeli representative? :-) Ross, are you looking to have an Israeli annex or the 'Synagogue Without Walls?' If anyone has any ideas, just let me know -) That's why I had hoped to have Royal Davidic Blood, so I could just be the ing of Judah, and THAT could be my job. LOL Maybe.... So, this is kind of the end of my 'saga' - although I left out a LOT of stuff, articularly the last 7 years or so....but I think you guys got the point. My rms are open to one and all......if there's anything I can ever do for any of ou, don't hesitate to ask. Still looking to help the Lost Tribes, still looking to help reclaim the Temple ount, still looking to go on Aliyah........that's me in a nut hell.......thanks for listening........ B'Ahava Rabba (With Much Love), Hanoch -------------------------------- heck out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money asters of 2007. ______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my very movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good nd I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant pon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His ill." Rabbi Nachman's isdom 2 -------------------------------- e a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aol cmp00050000000003 _______________________________________________ From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 20:41:24 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:41:24 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Message-ID: Hey James, Hanukkah Sameach! Wow....this is such interesting stuff. Lucky for me, I printed it out and had a 90 minute subway ride to be able to read it and absorb it. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into that post - toda (thanks)! I found it very thought provoking, and will cause me to spend a lot of time with the Neviim (Prophets) this Shabbat! I have never fully understood (grasped?) the various numerology's, or focused much attention on them in the past. I guess it's more a result of my sort of, "let's make it happen NOW" kind of attitude. I know that I've been annoying (a nice way to put it!) at times, to those in our extended circle, but it's only because I want to see the Geula Shlema (Complete Redemption) in OUR time. My most fervent hope is that there is something I can do to help this process along....James, you've always showed tremendous faith in me to have some role in this whole thing. What it is, I still don't know. But if this list is IT, then I will do my very best to add to it all that I can. Honestly, I feel inadequate for the job, but "..where there's no man, be a man..." And if indeed Kislev 24 is the 'trigger' or the 'D-Day', if it can't be tonight, then may HaShem not make us wait more then one more year for the complete, glorious redemption........ B'Ahava, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/70f48dae/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 20:44:06 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:44:06 EST Subject: [Dialogue] 8 Nights of Hanukkah, 8 missing Israeli soldiers Message-ID: Shalom to all, Please keep them in your prayers.. Hanoch As we celebrate and enjoy the wonderful holiday.....As we celAs we celebrate and enjoy the wonderful holiday.....Chanukah.. Eight nights of Chanukah Eight missing Israeli soldiers Zachary (ben Miriam) Baumel Tzvi (ben Pnina) Feldman Yehuda (ben Sarah) Katz Ron (ben Batya) Arad Guy (ben Rina) Hever Gilad (ben Aviva) Shalit Eldad (ben Tova) Regev Ehud (ben Malka) Goldwasser We shall not be silent! We shall remember them at all times and work until they are reunited with their loved ones in We sh. **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/b679743c/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 21:04:28 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:04:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Message-ID: James, this is such a gift! Thank you so much! I've been studying it since it came in, and there is so much here! It has made me think of so many things. I'm taking notes to check all the ideas it has spurred. Alexander is such a key figure in all this. Hellenism is his baby. In the long count, he introduced the trampling of Jerusalem. In the short count, there will probably be a connection to him again. Did you reckon the September 3rd birth of Yeshua because of a hunch that he would have been conceived on Kislev 24? It does make sense. Do you feel that John 10:22 is referring to Hanukkah? I feel certain that you are right when you say that Kislev 24 is THE date. It's what is important. Hanukkah is a RESULT of the redemption of Kislev 24! This is fabulous!!!!! General Allenby freed Jerusalem Kislev 24, 1917. The Tribes' redemption was begun on Kislev 24, 1927. The regathering and re-uniting with Judah must surely follow suit. I wonder if there is a Kislev 24 count from 1927 that we should be recognizing that pertains to regathering and re-uniting? Isn't the pattern: first Judah, then the Tribes? Like first Jerusalem was liberated (1917), then the Tribes redemption was conceived (1927)? I know that you don't have time to answer all these questions. I just appreciate so much that you made me think of all these questions - and many more! You are very much appreciated, dear Teacher. Please don't forget to tell us about the Sanhedrin tombs. Thank you for this meaningful Kislev 24th. Happy Hanukkah to you. Oh, and thank you also for noting that Zechariah had 8 night visions! You really "lit up" this first night for us! I think you're our own personal Shamash!!!!! Pat From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today--just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight days, read through and study it... The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that the Temple be rebuilt and that the constitution of the new state of Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read carefully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the ground. And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence.Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAKE the heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only briefly alludes. This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November. He has EIGHT night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world dominion! Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, likely in some sequential order, both the preliminary events, and the detailed climax, of the "time of the end."So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir Isaac Newton so much.During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption.Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it begins: "I have returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential meaning of THIS DAY. I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months before his birth in September 3 BCE. But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The Torah reading was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it turned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls.Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especially Ezekiel, that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph is yet to come, "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai refers remains to be seen. It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the "countdown" begins. I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for any of us, and a time of new beginnings. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/9f0b3d88/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 21:09:28 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:09:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] 8 Nights of Hanukkah, 8 missing Israeli soldiers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Hanoch. Tonight was Zachary. Tomorrow night is Zachary and Tzvi. The next is Zachary, Tzvi and Yehuda, and so on through all the nights. From: YoungBarzel at aol.comDate: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:44:06 -0500To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] 8 Nights of Hanukkah, 8 missing Israeli soldiers Shalom to all, Please keep them in your prayers.. Hanoch As we celebrate and enjoy the wonderful holiday.....Chanukah.....it is important that we remember the eight missing Israeli soldiers. Eight nights of Chanukah Eight missing Israeli soldiers Zachary (ben Miriam) Baumel Tzvi (ben Pnina) Feldman Yehuda (ben Sarah) Katz Ron (ben Batya) Arad Guy (ben Rina) Hever Gilad (ben Aviva) Shalit Eldad (ben Tova) Regev Ehud (ben Malka) Goldwasser We shall not be silent! We shall remember them at all times and work until they are reunited with their loved ones in Israel. Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/ef5ddb7a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 21:33:45 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:33:45 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Some Hanukkah Reflections Message-ID: Shalom to all - Hanukkah Sameach! The thread where people were discussing what they were doing for Hanukkah (since it's a Hebrew word, you can spell it in English any way you want to! LOL) was fascinating to me. However, I realized that if I jumped in, I had a bit of an advantage - having ALWAYS celebrated Hanukkah. So, I decided that maybe I would just share some memories over the years, of how I've experienced Hanukkah. There were those Hanukkah's of my youth, that I remember...simple, my grandmother coming across the hall to join us (having her get up and dressed was nothing to take for granted), her always making sure that the candles she lit had their wicks straight! What a bizarre memory...but her freshly grated potato latkes (pancakes) were to DIE FOR!!!!!! As the youngest grandson, and the one who lived across the hall, we were very, very close. She was an amazing cook, and when the depression let up for a while, she would make a feast! But Hanukkah was THE time!! She also made some cheese stuffed pastries (kind of a filo dough), shaped as an 'S' that were very, very special. My mom would always buy a little something for grandma to give us, since she had no money, we always knew, but never let on... My brother and I got small presents, my folks had little money to spend on things like that, but they were always given with such obvious love, I remember feeling SO grateful, and that I was so special to get those things, whatever they were. Although now, I cannot remember what any gift was, LOL I always tried to give my parents something, but what they appreciated the most were the homemade cards that I would draw to give them. I used to do that when my mom was ill too, I remember, when I was very young. I'd try to use every color crayon in my Crayola set! I thought the whole Macabee warrior things was SO COOL!!! If only I could be as brave as the Macabees, should the need arise... As I got to my teenage years, I recall going to demonstrations for Soviet Jewry during Hanukkah - if they weren't free to celebrate Hanukkah, - we wouldn't just sit in our warm, comfy homes and do nothing! I remember nights were my toes were SO cold, I thought they would break off....I would get on the subway afterward, and actually shiver for the next five, or six stops, I was SO cold.... Department stores were just beginning to open on weekends and late nights before Christmas then (not like now, when everyone does that ALL the time), and I remember everything was about Christmas. It was a very strange time to be a Jew in an Irish Catholic neighborhood. There was no equal time for Hanukkah, or anything resembling the 'Holiday Season' that we have today' it was Christmas, period! And although I didn't feel envy about Christmas, I resented that everything shut down that day. That WAS the day when you knew you were the Jew..... There was one year, that my closest friend Eddie, persuaded me to go with he and his family to midnight mass at OLR - Our Lady of Refuge, the local LARGE Catholic church & school. Christmas Eve, during the day, I suddenly came down with a fever of 104, which was really high!! And of course, I couldn't go with them. I've always wondered if maybe, just maybe, there was 'something' behind this sudden fever (which disappeared within less then 2 days), which prevented me from going to Church. There was no Adam Sandler singing cool Hanukkah songs then- you truly felt like you were in Galut (Exile), and didn't belong....you were the 'oddball' to celebrate Hanukkah. It was clearly the inferior holiday in the mind of a kid. It wasn't until I realized the Macabees were warrior heroes who kicked butt, that I began to really get into it! Once I became an abba (daddy), it became a HUGE amount of fun. The girls made decorations for Hanukkah, and we ate tons of latkes (potato pancakes), donuts and anything we could get our hanks on! We had parties, and the girls were always invited to friends (and their teacher's, too) houses for events. In terms of presents for them, the goal was to give them either educational based toys, books, especially, or little things, you know - the kind of stuff that little kids (girls especially!) adore. I remember ordering (all of this was done a half year in advance) pencils with their names on it - they were thrilled!!! They were the most grateful kids, no matter what it was - special 'stickers' or those 'Polly Pocket' things, 'Beanie Babbies," stuffed dolls, anything like that. Not the Walkman things their friends were getting. Of course, this was my big chance to lecture about the Macabees and the Hellenist enemies, and being strong and loyal to the Torah. I must have been insufferable, as I went on, and on....but judging by the lifestyle choices they've made to date, some of it must have worked! :-) I actually used to come home early on Hanukkah nights when I worked in the business sector. Ironically, with this job, I not only didn't come home early, but I didn't come home until 9:15! It's weird to have switched to the Jewish not-for-profit world and have less time for Hanukkah...too weird.... Tonight however, was a lonely Hanukkah for me, Ayala was with friends, and Kyra is in the hills of Judea....but I thought of all the times when they were young, that I was able to give them gifts, and they would run into my open arms and hug me, and squeeze me and shower me with kisses. Oy....getting emotional again...time to end here, I guess. Every stage of life has it's particular joys, no doubt about it...Times change, people change, situations change, and that's just the way it is...the key is to try to enjoy it all, when you can. In that spirit, a joyous and wonderful Hanukkah to you and your families!! Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/a7ba4d4f/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 21:38:35 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:38:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Date Converter Calender Message-ID: I have somehow managed to lose the website that lets you convert any civil calender date to the corresponding Jewish date with the reading for that Shabbat. Can anyone help me? Thank you, Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/68755f27/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 21:40:54 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:40:54 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Date Converter Calender Message-ID: Hey Pat - It's: _www.Hebcal.com_ (http://www.Hebcal.com) Have a wonderful Hanukkah!!! Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/3785ed07/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 21:43:08 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:43:08 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Date Converter Calender In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Hanoch, you too! From: YoungBarzel at aol.comDate: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:40:54 -0500Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Date Converter CalenderTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Hey Pat - It's: www.Hebcal.com Have a wonderful Hanukkah!!! Hanoch Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/20246f28/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 21:49:59 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:49:59 EST Subject: [Dialogue] 83 Hanukkah sites! Message-ID: Shalom to all! Okay, for those with time, here are 83 different Hanukkah sites!! Have a blast!! Hanoch _Click here: JR Hot Sites - Jewish - Holidays - Chanukka, Chanukah, Hanukka_ (http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-hdaych.htm) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/c318f8ce/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Dec 4 21:52:47 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:52:47 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <026a01c836f2$4cbd7790$653c66c9@bettygivin> Yes, James, thanks so much for this and for all the time you spent in laying out this fascinating study for us! It will take a while to let all of this sink in, and I am looking forward to studying it in more detail over the next few nights of Hanukkah. I love the message of the coming redemption and "from this time on I will bless you!" May the Redemption come quickly and in our time! In the meantime, as you said we can always look to this date as a time of personal new beginnings and a time of renewal. Hag Sameach my brother! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 9:04 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 James, this is such a gift! Thank you so much! I've been studying it since it came in, and there is so much here! It has made me think of so many things. I'm taking notes to check all the ideas it has spurred. Alexander is such a key figure in all this. Hellenism is his baby. In the long count, he introduced the trampling of Jerusalem. In the short count, there will probably be a connection to him again. Did you reckon the September 3rd birth of Yeshua because of a hunch that he would have been conceived on Kislev 24? It does make sense. Do you feel that John 10:22 is referring to Hanukkah? I feel certain that you are right when you say that Kislev 24 is THE date. It's what is important. Hanukkah is a RESULT of the redemption of Kislev 24! This is fabulous!!!!! General Allenby freed Jerusalem Kislev 24, 1917. The Tribes' redemption was begun on Kislev 24, 1927. The regathering and re-uniting with Judah must surely follow suit. I wonder if there is a Kislev 24 count from 1927 that we should be recognizing that pertains to regathering and re-uniting? Isn't the pattern: first Judah, then the Tribes? Like first Jerusalem was liberated (1917), then the Tribes redemption was conceived (1927)? I know that you don't have time to answer all these questions. I just appreciate so much that you made me think of all these questions - and many more! You are very much appreciated, dear Teacher. Please don't forget to tell us about the Sanhedrin tombs. Thank you for this meaningful Kislev 24th. Happy Hanukkah to you. Oh, and thank you also for noting that Zechariah had 8 night visions! You really "lit up" this first night for us! I think you're our own personal Shamash!!!!! Pat _____ From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today--just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight days, read through and study it... The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that the Temple be rebuilt and that the constitution of the new state of Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read carefully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the ground. And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence. Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAKE the heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only briefly alludes. This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November. He has EIGHT night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world dominion! Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, likely in some sequential order, both the preliminary events, and the detailed climax, of the "time of the end." So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir Isaac Newton so much. During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption. Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it begins: "I have returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential meaning of THIS DAY. I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months before his birth in September 3 BCE. But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The Torah reading was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it turned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especially Ezekiel, that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph is yet to come, "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai refers remains to be seen. It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the "countdown" begins. I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for any of us, and a time of new beginnings. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/2aff0741/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 21:57:19 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:57:19 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Message-ID: This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a sense of humor! :-) Hanoch _Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1)_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwYQBV66rbM) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/71286c43/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Dec 4 21:48:27 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:48:27 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Check out Chanukah Videos on YouTube Message-ID: Shalom to all - Okay, for those with a sense of humor.... Hanoch _Click here: Chanukah Videos on YouTube_ (http://www.jr.co.il/videos/chanukah-videos.htm) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/1f0e8a3b/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Dec 4 22:43:10 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:43:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26E78AB7-ACFB-4562-BD74-BEEE1DB9636E@earthlink.net> Well call me a fool but I think it is TONIGHT...from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you says YHVH. 40 years since the Six Day War...Just as in the days of Moshe. I have not the slightest doubt of your role Hanoch, and of the rest of us as well. Chag Sameach, James On Dec 4, 2007, at 9:41 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > Hey James, > > Hanukkah Sameach! Wow....this is such interesting stuff. Lucky > for me, I printed it out and had a 90 minute subway ride to be able > to read it and absorb it. I really appreciate the time and effort > you put into that post - toda (thanks)! I found it very thought > provoking, and will cause me to spend a lot of time with the Neviim > (Prophets) this Shabbat! > > I have never fully understood (grasped?) the various > numerology's, or focused much attention on them in the past. I > guess it's more a result of my sort of, "let's make it happen NOW" > kind of attitude. I know that I've been annoying (a nice way to put > it!) at times, to those in our extended circle, but it's only > because I want to see the Geula Shlema (Complete Redemption) in OUR > time. > > My most fervent hope is that there is something I can do to help > this process along....James, you've always showed tremendous faith > in me to have some role in this whole thing. What it is, I still > don't know. But if this list is IT, then I will do my very best to > add to it all that I can. Honestly, I feel inadequate for the job, > but "..where there's no man, be a man..." > > And if indeed Kislev 24 is the 'trigger' or the 'D-Day', if it > can't be tonight, then may HaShem not make us wait more then one > more year for the complete, glorious redemption........ > > B'Ahava, > Hanoch > > > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top > money wasters of 2007. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/c3015928/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Dec 4 22:47:11 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:47:11 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Patricia, Thanks so much. I know what I sent was a bit dense and a lot to study, but it can be taken in pieces. It represents many years of study for me but I tried to offer a summary. These things have come in bits and pieces, since 1990, not all at once. I think I recall that you had some personal Kislev 24 experiences. Maybe you remember what you shared once and will feel like sharing again. Chag Sameach, James On Dec 4, 2007, at 10:04 PM, patricia robbins wrote: > > James, this is such a gift! Thank you so much! I've been studying > it since it came in, and there is so much here! It has made me > think of so many things. I'm taking notes to check all the ideas it > has spurred. > > Alexander is such a key figure in all this. Hellenism is his baby. > In the long count, he introduced the trampling of Jerusalem. In the > short count, there will probably be a connection to him again. > > Did you reckon the September 3rd birth of Yeshua because of a hunch > that he would have been conceived on Kislev 24? It does make > sense. Do you feel that John 10:22 is referring to Hanukkah? > > > > I feel certain that you are right when you say that Kislev 24 is THE > date. It's what is important. Hanukkah is a RESULT of the > redemption of Kislev 24! This is fabulous!!!!! > > General Allenby freed Jerusalem Kislev 24, 1917. The Tribes' > redemption was begun on Kislev 24, 1927. The regathering and re- > uniting with Judah must surely follow suit. I wonder if there is a > Kislev 24 count from 1927 that we should be recognizing that > pertains to regathering and re-uniting? Isn't the pattern: first > Judah, then the Tribes? Like first Jerusalem was liberated (1917), > then the Tribes redemption was conceived (1927)? > > I know that you don't have time to answer all these questions. I > just appreciate so much that you made me think of all these > questions - and many more! You are very much appreciated, dear > Teacher. Please don't forget to tell us about the Sanhedrin tombs. > > Thank you for this meaningful Kislev 24th. Happy Hanukkah to you. > Oh, and thank you also for noting that Zechariah had 8 night visions! > > You really "lit up" this first night for us! I think you're our own > personal Shamash!!!!! > > Pat > > > > From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500 > Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 > > I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to > interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of > Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through > two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah > there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today-- > just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. > Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very > REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before > winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight > days, read through and study it... > > The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." > > The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the > Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the > most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister > Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas > in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" > of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. > Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the > redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, > where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai > IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is > just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it > is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their > contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that > the Temple be rebuilt and that the constitution of the new state of > Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read > carefully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is > only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT > restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest > (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is > no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah > had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and > Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially > chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful > prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little > beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do > believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and > a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice > and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the > ground. > > And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the > 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. > > Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you > through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh > Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of > the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and > then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's > third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short > book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence. > > Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, > 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I > will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, > on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the > context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAKE the > heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, > anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and > essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS > you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in > particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only > briefly alludes. > > This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the > "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). > They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final > anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, > especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the > promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the > GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. > > Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th > month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November. He has EIGHT > night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but > prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There > is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, > should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note > carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but > it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small > things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this > tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a > nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, > was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a > world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world > dominion! > > Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite > different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, > likely in some sequential order, both the preliminary events, and > the detailed climax, of the "time of the end." > > So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. > First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED > for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not > by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its > time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be > one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I > have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong > conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a > "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious > 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir > Isaac Newton so much. > > During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV > unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, > it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed > from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is > celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other > words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker > date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in > history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption. > > Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the > British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem > for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date > on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the > Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to > the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was > Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. > And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as > it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it > begins: "I have returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential > meaning of THIS DAY. > > I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the > battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. > > I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over > the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous > times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller > more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For > example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in > all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months > before his birth in September 3 BCE. > > But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I > discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the > encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe > Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you > guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, > as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was > Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of > this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just > what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was > that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms > of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that > cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago > yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and > Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a > Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The > Torah reading was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting > ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its > symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a > completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it > turned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night > at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will > write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these > tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in > talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on > Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls. > > Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came > in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since > that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is > interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which > I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is > 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible > is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the > period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of > indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especially Ezekiel, > that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and > accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last > 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" > and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was > essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the > full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph > is yet to come, "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a > "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on > this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. > And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of > all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai > refers remains to be seen. > > It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 > days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish > calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something > like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange > figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too > complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel > (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence > of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled > as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in > 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was > liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be > that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/ > years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate > is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these > periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the > "countdown" begins. > > I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev > 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or > future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did > indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet > come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given > such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a > personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for > any of us, and a time of new beginnings. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/d366381f/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 23:58:52 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 00:58:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've not had any Kislev 24 experiences. If anyone has, I'd love to hear them. This being the 4oth year since the Six Day War (as you mentioned to Hanoch), we could be in for quite a ride "from this day forward!" After the 40 years of wandering in the desert - due to the fact that they were afraid of the giants in the land - it was TIME to go in and possess it. From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:47:11 -0500Dear Patricia, Thanks so much. I know what I sent was a bit dense and a lot to study, but it can be taken in pieces. It represents many years of study for me but I tried to offer a summary. These things have come in bits and pieces, since 1990, not all at once. I think I recall that you had some personal Kislev 24 experiences. Maybe you remember what you shared once and will feel like sharing again. Chag Sameach, James On Dec 4, 2007, at 10:04 PM, patricia robbins wrote: James, this is such a gift! Thank you so much! I've been studying it since it came in, and there is so much here! It has made me think of so many things. I'm taking notes to check all the ideas it has spurred. Alexander is such a key figure in all this. Hellenism is his baby. In the long count, he introduced the trampling of Jerusalem. In the short count, there will probably be a connection to him again. Did you reckon the September 3rd birth of Yeshua because of a hunch that he would have been conceived on Kislev 24? It does make sense. Do you feel that John 10:22 is referring to Hanukkah? I feel certain that you are right when you say that Kislev 24 is THE date. It's what is important. Hanukkah is a RESULT of the redemption of Kislev 24! This is fabulous!!!!! General Allenby freed Jerusalem Kislev 24, 1917. The Tribes' redemption was begun on Kislev 24, 1927. The regathering and re-uniting with Judah must surely follow suit. I wonder if there is a Kislev 24 count from 1927 that we should be recognizing that pertains to regathering and re-uniting? Isn't the pattern: first Judah, then the Tribes? Like first Jerusalem was liberated (1917), then the Tribes redemption was conceived (1927)? I know that you don't have time to answer all these questions. I just appreciate so much that you made me think of all these questions - and many more! You are very much appreciated, dear Teacher. Please don't forget to tell us about the Sanhedrin tombs. Thank you for this meaningful Kislev 24th. Happy Hanukkah to you. Oh, and thank you also for noting that Zechariah had 8 night visions! You really "lit up" this first night for us! I think you're our own personal Shamash!!!!! Pat From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today--just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight days, read through and study it... The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that the Temple be rebuilt and that the constitution of the new state of Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read carefully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the ground. And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence.Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAKE the heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only briefly alludes. This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November. He has EIGHT night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world dominion! Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, likely in some sequential order, both the preliminary events, and the detailed climax, of the "time of the end."So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir Isaac Newton so much.During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption.Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it begins: "I have returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential meaning of THIS DAY. I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months before his birth in September 3 BCE. But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The Torah reading was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it turned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls.Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especially Ezekiel, that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph is yet to come, "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai refers remains to be seen. It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the "countdown" begins. I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for any of us, and a time of new beginnings. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/51cb490b/attachment.html From kim.alvarado at charter.net Wed Dec 5 00:55:57 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:55:57 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071205015557.SAA44.126217.root@fepweb10> Yes, yes, yes! to all that has been said. May the redemption be soon and in our day. Thank you for this reminder of Kislev 24, James. I had thought about it a few weeks ago and then forgot about it. Wish I had to time to just study. Happy Hanukkah to all. Kim ---- patricia robbins wrote: ============= I've not had any Kislev 24 experiences. If anyone has, I'd love to hear them. This being the 4oth year since the Six Day War (as you mentioned to Hanoch), we could be in for quite a ride "from this day forward!" After the 40 years of wandering in the desert - due to the fact that they were afraid of the giants in the land - it was TIME to go in and possess it. From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:47:11 -0500Dear Patricia, Thanks so much. I know what I sent was a bit dense and a lot to study, but it can be taken in pieces. It represents many years of study for me but I tried to offer a summary. These things have come in bits and pieces, since 1990, not all at once. I think I recall that you had some personal Kislev 24 experiences. Maybe you remember what you shared once and will feel like sharing again. Chag Sameach, James On Dec 4, 2007, at 10:04 PM, patricia robbins wrote: James, this is such a gift! Thank you so much! I've been studying it since it came in, and there is so much here! It has made me think of so many things. I'm taking notes to check all the ideas it has spurred. Alexander is such a key figure in all this. Hellenism is his baby. In the long count, he introduced the trampling of Jerusalem. In the short count, there will probably be a connection to him again. Did you reckon the September 3rd birth of Yeshua because of a hunch that he would have been conceived on Kislev 24? It does make sense. Do you feel that John 10:22 is referring to Hanukkah? I feel certain that you are right when you say that Kislev 24 is THE date. It's what is important. Hanukkah is a RESULT of the redemption of Kislev 24! This is fabulous!!!!! General Allenby freed Jerusalem Kislev 24, 1917. The Tribes' redemption was begun on Kislev 24, 1927. The regathering and re-uniting with Judah must surely follow suit. I wonder if there is a Kislev 24 count from 1927 that we should be recognizing that pertains to regathering and re-uniting? Isn't the pattern: first Judah, then the Tribes? Like first Jerusalem was liberated (1917), then the Tribes redemption was conceived (1927)? I know that you don't have time to answer all these questions. I just appreciate so much that you made me think of all these questions - and many more! You are very much appreciated, dear Teacher. Please don't forget to tell us about the Sanhedrin tombs. Thank you for this meaningful Kislev 24th. Happy Hanukkah to you. Oh, and thank you also for noting that Zechariah had 8 night visions! You really "lit up" this first night for us! I think you're our own personal Shamash!!!!! Pat From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today--just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight days, read through and study it... The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that the Temple be rebuilt and that the constitution of the new state of Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read carefully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the ground. And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence.Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAKE the heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only briefly alludes. This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November. He has EIGHT night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world dominion! Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, likely in some sequential order, both the preliminary events, and the detailed climax, of the "time of the end."So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir Isaac Newton so much.During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption.Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it begins: "I have returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential meaning of THIS DAY. I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months before his birth in September 3 BCE. But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The Torah reading was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it turned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls.Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especially Ezekiel, that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph is yet to come, "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai refers remains to be seen. It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the "countdown" begins. I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for any of us, and a time of new beginnings. _______________________________________________ From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com Tue Dec 4 20:58:27 2007 From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:58:27 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Prayers Message-ID: This is from a good friend of mine. He used to attend the synagogue. I haven't seen him in a while, but care for him greatly. Please pray for his situation. ----- Original Message ----- From: obannon at bellsouth.net To: Nichols, Ross K. Sent: Tue Dec 04 16:07:19 2007 Subject: Prayers Ross, I am in San Antonio where my son Paul is in ICU. He had sinus surgery and as a result the frontal lobe of his brain was penetrated and is leaking fluid. We are in a watchful waiting mode and things seem to be doing OK at present. If it does not heal in its own surgery will be required and that is not a good option. Please ask your flock to pray for healing for Paul. Thank you, Doug O'Bannon From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com Wed Dec 5 06:53:47 2007 From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 06:53:47 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Toby Lights the first candle Message-ID: All, Last night, we met at the synagogue and had a nice evening. We talked about the significance of this season and yes we spoke of the passage in Haggai as James had pointed this out to me several years ago. This day (24th of the 9th month) has proven quite important to me as well. It was just two years ago when I held my first meeting in the synagogue on this very evening. A small group of friends and relatives came up to the building and I spoke of the blessings of this day. I don't think I could have envisioned what would happen over the next couple of years at that time. * We now have Sabbath services and are literally reaching people all over the planet! * The web site is now averaging well over 700 visits per day. * We are posting new podcasts every week. * I am surrounded by wonderful and talented people who are interested in studying and learning together. * We have released our first album. * We held our first Succoth here in Louisiana that was attended by people from several states. I am in awe and it certainly began as a small meeting on this day in a house originally built as a place of Hebrew worship. I have often thought that all of this is quite amazing. When you consider that I moved to a town over a decade ago where an abandoned synagogue was waiting for me! Shalom and BLESSINGS to you and yours! Love, Ross Ross K. Nichols Operations Excellence Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 Cellular - 225.588.1575 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/3f7ec20a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TobyHanukkah3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 21200 bytes Desc: TobyHanukkah3.JPG Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/3f7ec20a/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TobyHanukkah1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 43365 bytes Desc: TobyHanukkah1.JPG Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/3f7ec20a/attachment-0001.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TobyHanukkah2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 18770 bytes Desc: TobyHanukkah2.JPG Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/3f7ec20a/attachment-0002.jpe From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Dec 5 07:40:53 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 08:40:53 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "The Grinch Who Stole Hanukka" by Michael Freund Message-ID: Hanukkah Sameach to all! Here's an article that I thought you'd find of interest...I really like Michael Freund's stuff. I actually had met him years ago- I had used a mutual acquaintance to introduce us. He was working with Rav Avichail and Amishav (a group that looks for 'Lost Tribes' in Asia, and 'Lost Jews' - write me if this is too confusing) at the time, and of course, I volunteered to work with them. He seemed interested in my help (and treated me to lunch in Manhattan). But he never responded to my emails, and yet another Jewish organization, seemingly didn't need my help. But enough background, on to the article! Hanoch Fundamentally Freund: The grinch who stole Hanukka Michael Freund, THE JERUSALEM POST December 5, 2007 This year marks the 50th anniversary of the publication of a very special book, one that has entered the cultural consciousness of Americans young and old. It was in 1957 that the celebrated children's author, Dr. Seuss, released his classic How the Grinch Stole Christmas, about the acerbic individual who tries to prevent Christmas from coming to his neighbors in mythical Whoville. Failing to grasp the meaning of the holiday for its celebrants, the Grinch callously aims to undermine their festivities. It is unlikely that Dr. Seuss could have known just how popular his work would eventually prove to be, giving rise to a series of television and film adaptations, countless parodies, and even a Broadway musical. But what he surely never imagined was the extent to which some Jews would one day try to emulate the actions of the central character, gleefully distorting the meaning of Hanukka in pursuit of their own dubious agendas. Yes, that's right, there is now a Grinch trying to steal Hanukka. And he comes in many forms. For some, the holiday has become a mindless exercise in consumerism, as we try to outdo our non-Jewish neighbors by giving an abundance of presents each night, thereby burying the true meaning of the holiday under a pile of wrapping paper and ribbons. For others, Hanukka has been shorn of any historical, religious or even cultural content, and become just another vehicle for promoting unrelated, and not necessarily even Jewish, issues. In the process, of course, many Jews have lost sight of the underlying message of Hanukka. This is a dangerous development, one which feeds into growing assimilation and mounting Jewish ignorance, and it cannot be allowed to continue. Take, for example, a story published last week by the Jewish Telegraphic Agency in New York, which was rather diplomatically headlined, "Groups seek to infuse new themes, agendas into Chanukah observance." The thrust of the article is how a variety of Jewish groups have stripped away the uniquely Jewish historical and religious component of the holiday in an effort to promote environmental concerns. Some outfit called the Shalom Center, we are told, is using Hanukka "to encourage switching to more energy-efficient light bulbs." Two other groups, the Coalition on the Environment and Jewish Life and the Jewish Council for Public Affairs (JCPA), are taking the light-bulb issue one step further. Their brainchild, if one can call it that, is a project called "A Light Among the Nations," which "aims to get Jews to switch to compact fluorescent light bulbs during the holiday." WHY ALL this talk of light-bulbs, you might ask? The idea, said JCPA Executive Director Rabbi Steve Gutow, is really quite simple. "It's substantively a part of the holiday because there was a time when we really needed to have a little energy go a long way," he explained, apparently with a straight face. "We call that time Hanukka, and it was a time when we were at a nadir of our ability to find energy and to use it," he said. If Rabbi Gutow's thinking is anything approaching mainstream, then I would dare say that American Jewry truly is at a nadir, only not the one that he might have in mind. Now, don't get me wrong. Promoting conservation and environmental awareness is important, so long as it is done in a sensible and responsible manner. But why must it come at the expense of the Jewishness of the festival? Why dilute Hanukka of its eternal meaning, and replace its evocative Jewish symbolism with a passing fad? It would be tempting, of course, to dismiss these initiatives as just another example of how American Jewish organizations have grown so woefully out of touch with our collective heritage. After all, if the best they can do to generate interest in their activities is to hijack the meaning of Jewish holidays, then they really are in need of a serious strategic re-think. But frankly, I find their efforts insulting and even offensive. And I'm sure the Maccabees of old would be surprised and disappointed to see how some of their descendants have reduced their heroic defense of Judaism and the rededication of the Temple into little more than an excuse for a shopping spree or a marketing campaign. The lights at Hanukka symbolize our national triumph, and our undying faith in God and His promises of Divine restoration and redemption. The Jewish people did not risk their lives over the centuries to kindle the Hanukkia, whether in Siberian prisons or Nazi death camps, merely because they were concerned about global warming or even saving the whales. Our forefathers did so because they knew, deep down, that just as the candles stand ram-rod straight, giving off light in defiance of their surroundings, so too the Jewish people would one day do the same. And that just as our ancestors had merited to serve God in Jerusalem, so too shall we. There's nothing wrong with trying to evoke new layers of meaning and relevance in our ancient traditions in order to appeal to larger numbers of Jews. But there is something very wrong in using Hanukka as a talking point, while simultaneously ignoring its role as a turning point too. So to all those who are trying to distort, disrupt and disfigure this most beautiful of holidays, I say: keep your hands off Hanukka, and let us light our candles, and bask in the true meaning of the festival, in peace. ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 _mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org _ (mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org) _http://www.womeningreen.org _ (http://www.womeningreen.org/) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/dfb5a310/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Dec 5 08:19:32 2007 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:19:32 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Message-ID: I find this paper of James Tabor as historically foundational of things that have been and things to come. Since God is a God of patterns, things that have occurred in the historical context of the times, have a way in similarity to repeat when circumstances seem to present a likely scenario. Being caution as to what we might observe in current situations as the paper of James is, where we are and what we might expect in our generation, I think we must enter with care. I wish to present a few thoughts with hope that others might have comment from their own observations. I think as James highlights Hos 6:2, After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we will live in his light, from the principle of a day as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day, I wonder if the same pattern might be observed in Zech 13:7-9? That is from the desolations of the second temple in 70 CE, the scattering of the Jewish people into the nations, I wonder if vs 7-8 might be looked at as Zechariah's bridge across time? If so, then v 8 may very well correspond to Hos 6:2, again bringing us in time to the third day. On the bases of Judah having to be put between a rock and a hard place before they turn back to the God of the fathers, I wonder if what we read in Isaiah 11 might be in historical progression? Although this is speculation, it seems that our nation is bent on putting the little nation of Israel between a rock and a hard place. In light of the attempt to place the enemies of Israel at their front and back door, could we be moving Israel into a situation where Isa 11:13-16, 12:1-6, will demand we join with Judah and fly down upon her enemies? I realize the United States has become a melting pot for all things detestable as Rome became, but could we be at the core especially as out nation began, Joseph/Ephraim? Again this is only speculation. Any one have comment? Clyde **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/4b011ba3/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500 Size: 29202 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/4b011ba3/attachment.mht From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 5 08:31:26 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:31:26 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] On having "The Answers" Message-ID: <120520071431.21141.4756B63D000E3EBE0000529522216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Bonnie, Did ya give up on us? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Bonnie Nelson : -------------- Hi Walter, I like what my father taught me that God helps those who help themselves, and others. So giving up and turning every thing over to God is not a stake I want to plant, but my Christian teacher believes that that is necessary to be a Christian and that is part of why I do not choose to be a Christian. My mother/father God (I don't think whichever picture we have in our imagination matters) is a voice inside me that I have tested over and over. For me the Hebrew and Christian scriptures are not the word of God, but words by humans as they perceived that voice within them, plus a lot of fiction written to control people or lead them into war (and Peace), but they help me find the word of God when I read them and meditate/pray, as does the scriptures Qu'ran or Bhagavad Gita, and many good books. The Torah was written after thousands of years of oral only tradition. Most Jews I talk to as well as Christians see that the reason they placed so much importance on oral was because they believed people need to learn to listen to the voice within them. I am glad they changed that "stake." But what I get from my teacher is that those words are not to be taken literally but interpreted differently according to the needs in the present, not w/o learning from the wisdom of the teachers of past traditions but more important is to make that connection with our God of ALL, not just the God the chosen people. To me turning everything over to God or to words in scriptures as others interpret them would be to betray my God. My ability to think and reason are the most precious gift from God imaginable. My Christian teacher says the same thing you said about needing to do God's will, not our own. The question then is how do you determine what that will is, by majority rule? I can not give up reasoning/logic and telling the future to me is crystal ball superstition ... but that is where I am now and I have been wrong before. My Rabbi tells me I can be a Jew and be an atheist, which I am not and he is not. I am agnostic about Jesus, but very much believe in a Creator Master planner that is loving of all people not just Jews gentiles and lost tribes. I hope I am being respectful, because I really like this group dialogue and hope to meet people some day but it is hard to escape Alaska, so expensive. Bonnie On Dec 4, 2007, at 8:53 AM, CHATTERTON, WALTER G wrote: All, There was a time in the not-so-distant past that I was convinced that I had all the answers as pertained to God, and man's relationship with Him. They conveniently fit on a business card that I could hand out to others so they, too, could come to see the light as I had. It was so obvious to me - how could everyone not see it? Without getting into all the details, suffice it to say that I was rather abruptly presented with the fact that I, in fact, knew very little of God and His ways, and understood them even less. I did, however, make the first step when I came to the end of myself, and in utter desperation and the most pivotal moment in my life simply threw myself at His feet and said "Please help me, Father... I am finished trying to help myself". He answered my heart cry, and said "Get up and walk as I direct you". Years in the making, I am now only months into that sojourn with my Father. I have been granted another chance, and now my only goal in this life is to please my Father. To me, all else pales in comparison. Glenn _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/35c50cce/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Tue Dec 4 21:42:50 2007 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:42:50 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Date Converter Calender References: Message-ID: <000101c8375a$11003630$6400a8c0@davesbook> www.hebcal.com dave ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 9:38 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Date Converter Calender I have somehow managed to lose the website that lets you convert any civil calender date to the corresponding Jewish date with the reading for that Shabbat. Can anyone help me? Thank you, Pat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071204/a8636c74/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Dec 5 10:19:58 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:19:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Message-ID: You have brought up some very interesting things, Clyde. I keep rereading what you said about our having "become a melting pot for all things detestable as Rome became." That's so scary! I've always said that IF the United States ever turned on Israel, I'm outta here!!! And that seems to be exactly what is happening. Hosea 6:2 tells us that the TIME of our being raised up could, indeed, be upon us. We ARE well into the third day. Are you thinking that perhaps the USA could first be the cause of Israel's dire straights, then those of Joseph within the USA, will be represented by the 1/3 who are refined by fire, and will come in and save Israel? If I'm understanding you correctly, and if Zech 13:7-9 could be construed as referring to the USA, then maybe we are supposed to remain here and yell all the more loudly for our brothers and sisters to WAKE UP!!!! But it is very scary to be part of a nation that would turn on G-d by turning on Israel. That to me just doesn't seem ethically feasible, but on the other hand, it would grieve me so terribly to leave my two young grandchildren behind here. I may have totally missed your point. If so, please elucidate. Shalom, Pat From: CBrown4465 at aol.comDate: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:19:32 -0500Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org I find this paper of James Tabor as historically foundational of things that have been and things to come. Since God is a God of patterns, things that have occurred in the historical context of the times, have a way in similarity to repeat when circumstances seem to present a likely scenario. Being caution as to what we might observe in current situations as the paper of James is, where we are and what we might expect in our generation, I think we must enter with care. I wish to present a few thoughts with hope that others might have comment from their own observations. I think as James highlights Hos 6:2, After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we will live in his light, from the principle of a day as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day, I wonder if the same pattern might be observed in Zech 13:7-9? That is from the desolations of the second temple in 70 CE, the scattering of the Jewish people into the nations, I wonder if vs 7-8 might be looked at as Zechariah's bridge across time? If so, then v 8 may very well correspond to Hos 6:2, again bringing us in time to the third day. On the bases of Judah having to be put between a rock and a hard place before they turn back to the God of the fathers, I wonder if what we read in Isaiah 11 might be in historical progression? Although this is speculation, it seems that our nation is bent on putting the little nation of Israel between a rock and a hard place. In light of the attempt to place the enemies of Israel at their front and back door, could we be moving Israel into a situation where Isa 11:13-16, 12:1-6, will demand we join with Judah and fly down upon her enemies? I realize the United States has become a melting pot for all things detestable as Rome became, but could we be at the core especially as out nation began, Joseph/Ephraim? Again this is only speculation. Any one have comment? Clyde Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today--just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight days, read through and study it... The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that the Temple be rebuilt and that the constitution of the new state of Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read carefully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the ground. And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence.Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAKE the heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only briefly alludes. This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November. He has EIGHT night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world dominion! Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, likely in some sequential order, both the preliminary events, and the detailed climax, of the "time of the end."So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir Isaac Newton so much.During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption.Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it begins: "I have returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential meaning of THIS DAY. I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months before his birth in September 3 BCE. But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The Torah reading was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it turned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls.Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especially Ezekiel, that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph is yet to come, "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai refers remains to be seen. It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the "countdown" begins. I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for any of us, and a time of new beginnings. = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/cf89bdfe/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Dec 5 10:28:28 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:28:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Date Converter Calender In-Reply-To: <000101c8375a$11003630$6400a8c0@davesbook> References: <000101c8375a$11003630$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: Thanks, Dave! I also remembered the one I used to use. It was Aishluach = www.aish.com/kaluach/. I like it because it shows the Torah portion for the particular week you are viewing. You have to download it, but it's very nice. From: dhcole1 at cox.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Date Converter CalenderDate: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:42:50 -0600 www.hebcal.com dave ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 9:38 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Date Converter Calender I have somehow managed to lose the website that lets you convert any civil calender date to the corresponding Jewish date with the reading for that Shabbat. Can anyone help me? Thank you, Pat _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/564af991/attachment.html From kim.alvarado at charter.net Wed Dec 5 11:53:13 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 9:53:13 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071205125313.80I07.325024.root@fepweb13> Pat, I agree that there will be a time when we will need to go to our home- Israel. While, the time is not yet, we don't know when it will be. I think we should prepare ourselves spiritually yes, but also mentally, and physically. Yes, Ha Shem, our G-d fights for us, but we also have the duty to be ready (at least as ready as we can be). Kim ---- patricia robbins wrote: ============= You have brought up some very interesting things, Clyde. I keep rereading what you said about our having "become a melting pot for all things detestable as Rome became." That's so scary! I've always said that IF the United States ever turned on Israel, I'm outta here!!! And that seems to be exactly what is happening. Hosea 6:2 tells us that the TIME of our being raised up could, indeed, be upon us. We ARE well into the third day. Are you thinking that perhaps the USA could first be the cause of Israel's dire straights, then those of Joseph within the USA, will be represented by the 1/3 who are refined by fire, and will come in and save Israel? If I'm understanding you correctly, and if Zech 13:7-9 could be construed as referring to the USA, then maybe we are supposed to remain here and yell all the more loudly for our brothers and sisters to WAKE UP!!!! But it is very scary to be part of a nation that would turn on G-d by turning on Israel. That to me just doesn't seem ethically feasible, but on the other hand, it would grieve me so terribly to leave my two young grandchildren behind here. I may have totally missed your point. If so, please elucidate. Shalom, Pat From: CBrown4465 at aol.comDate: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:19:32 -0500Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org I find this paper of James Tabor as historically foundational of things that have been and things to come. Since God is a God of patterns, things that have occurred in the historical context of the times, have a way in similarity to repeat when circumstances seem to present a likely scenario. Being caution as to what we might observe in current situations as the paper of James is, where we are and what we might expect in our generation, I think we must enter with care. I wish to present a few thoughts with hope that others might have comment from their own observations. I think as James highlights Hos 6:2, After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we will live in his light, from the principle of a day as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day, I wonder if the same pattern might be observed in Zech 13:7-9? That is from the desolations of the second temple in 70 CE, the scattering of the Jewish people into the nations, I wonder if vs 7-8 might be looked at as Zechariah's bridge across time? If so, then v 8 may very well correspond to Hos 6:2, again bringing us in time to the third day. On the bases of Judah having to be put between a rock and a hard place before they turn back to the God of the fathers, I wonder if what we read in Isaiah 11 might be in historical progression? Although this is speculation, it seems that our nation is bent on putting the little nation of Israel between a rock and a hard place. In light of the attempt to place the enemies of Israel at their front and back door, could we be moving Israel into a situation where Isa 11:13-16, 12:1-6, will demand we join with Judah and fly down upon her enemies? I realize the United States has become a melting pot for all things detestable as Rome became, but could we be at the core especially as out nation began, Joseph/Ephraim? Again this is only speculation. Any one have comment? Clyde Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today--just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight days, read through and study it... The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that the Temple be rebuilt and that the constitution of the new state of Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read carefully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the ground. And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence.Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAKE the heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only briefly alludes. This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November. He has EIGHT night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world dominion! Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, likely in some sequential order, both the preliminary events, and the detailed climax, of the "time of the end."So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir Isaac Newton so much.During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption.Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it begins: "I have returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential meaning of THIS DAY. I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months before his birth in September 3 BCE. But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The Torah reading was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it turned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls.Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especially Ezekiel, that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph is yet to come, "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai refers remains to be seen. It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the "countdown" begins. I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for any of us, and a time of new beginnings. = From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 5 10:00:18 2007 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:00:18 +0000 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Message-ID: <120520071600.15923.4756CB05000999FF00003E3322230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Clyde, This is an very interesting correlation. I just glanced at it briefly, and see your point, but will need to study it out further at home where I have my resources. I love this kind of thing! I have attached a document I have where I pulled together as many 'end time' references as I could find, based on my knowledge of the Scriptures and writings at that time. It provides a starting point, at least! Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/8548d975/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/msword Size: 77824 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/8548d975/attachment.dot From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com Wed Dec 5 11:57:58 2007 From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:57:58 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers Message-ID: Fyi - Keep praying. Ross K. Nichols Operations Excellence Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 Cellular - 225.588.1575 -----Original Message----- From: obannon at bellsouth.net [mailto:obannon at bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:51 AM To: Nichols, Ross K. Subject: Re: Prayers Ross, This morning it appears thru visual observation that the leakage has stopped. Great news! He will have a CT scam soon to verify that the hole is healing for sure. Paul will remain in ICU for 4-5 more days and then if all is well he will be able to come home. Keep praying that healing continues. Thanks.......... Best regards, Doug -------------- Original message from "Nichols, Ross K." : -------------- > Doug, > > I am on it. Please give me an update. Today is the one date specifically > mentioned in Scripture that God says he will bless from this day forward-the > 24th day of the 9th month on the Hebrew calendar. I am believing this for your > family! > See Haggai chapter 2! > > Shalom, Ross > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: obannon at bellsouth.net > To: Nichols, Ross K. > Sent: Tue Dec 04 16:07:19 2007 > Subject: Prayers > > Ross, > I am in San Antonio where my son Paul is in ICU. He had sinus surgery and as a > result the frontal lobe of his brain was penetrated and is leaking fluid. We > are in a watchful waiting mo de and things seem to be doing OK at present. If it > does not heal in its own surgery will be required and that is not a good option. > Please ask your flock to pray for healing for Paul. > Thank you, > Doug O'Bannon > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/3210c615/attachment.html From kim.alvarado at charter.net Wed Dec 5 12:01:15 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 10:01:15 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071205130115.8ASL7.325539.root@fepweb13> Great new! I will continue praying. Kim ---- "Nichols wrote: ============= Fyi - Keep praying. Ross K. Nichols Operations Excellence Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 Cellular - 225.588.1575 -----Original Message----- From: obannon at bellsouth.net [mailto:obannon at bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:51 AM To: Nichols, Ross K. Subject: Re: Prayers Ross, This morning it appears thru visual observation that the leakage has stopped. Great news! He will have a CT scam soon to verify that the hole is healing for sure. Paul will remain in ICU for 4-5 more days and then if all is well he will be able to come home. Keep praying that healing continues. Thanks.......... Best regards, Doug -------------- Original message from "Nichols, Ross K." : -------------- > Doug, > > I am on it. Please give me an update. Today is the one date specifically > mentioned in Scripture that God says he will bless from this day forward-the > 24th day of the 9th month on the Hebrew calendar. I am believing this for your > family! > See Haggai chapter 2! > > Shalom, Ross > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: obannon at bellsouth.net > To: Nichols, Ross K. > Sent: Tue Dec 04 16:07:19 2007 > Subject: Prayers > > Ross, > I am in San Antonio where my son Paul is in ICU. He had sinus surgery and as a > result the frontal lobe of his brain was penetrated and is leaking fluid. We > are in a watchful waiting mo de and things seem to be doing OK at present. If it > does not heal in its own surgery will be required and that is not a good option. > Please ask your flock to pray for healing for Paul. > Thank you, > Doug O'Bannon > From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Dec 5 12:02:43 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:02:43 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Happy to do so! Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:57:58 -0600From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers Fyi ? Keep praying. Ross K. Nichols Operations Excellence Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 Cellular - 225.588.1575 -----Original Message-----From: obannon at bellsouth.net [mailto:obannon at bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:51 AMTo: Nichols, Ross K.Subject: Re: Prayers Ross, This morning it appears thru visual observation that the leakage has stopped. Great news! He will have a CT scam soon to verify that the hole is healing for sure. Paul will remain in ICU for 4-5 more days and then if all is well he will be able to come home. Keep praying that healing continues. Thanks.......... Best regards, Doug -------------- Original message from "Nichols, Ross K." : -------------- > Doug, > > I am on it. Please give me an update. Today is the one date specifically > mentioned in Scripture that God says he will bless from this day forward-the > 24th day of the 9th month on the Hebrew calendar. I am believing this for your > family! > See Haggai chapter 2! > > Shalom, Ross > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: obannon at bellsouth.net > To: Nichols, Ross K. > Sent: Tue Dec 04 16:07:19 2007 > Subject: Prayers > > Ross, > I am in San Antonio where my son Paul is in ICU. He had sinus surgery and as a > result the frontal lobe of his brain was penetrated and is leaking fluid. We > are in a watchful waiting mo de and things seem to be doing OK at present. If it > does not heal in its own surgery will be required and that is not a good option. > Please ask your flock to pray for healing for Paul. > Thank you, > Doug O'Bannon > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/2e403eba/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Wed Dec 5 12:11:19 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 10:11:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <768583.96163.qm@web57109.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Ross, Paul and his family will stay in my prayers. Keep us updated. Shalom, Tammy "Nichols, Ross K." wrote: Fyi ? Keep praying. Ross K. Nichols Operations Excellence Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 Cellular - 225.588.1575 -----Original Message----- From: obannon at bellsouth.net [mailto:obannon at bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:51 AM To: Nichols, Ross K. Subject: Re: Prayers Ross, This morning it appears thru visual observation that the leakage has stopped. Great news! He will have a CT scam soon to verify that the hole is healing for sure. Paul will remain in ICU for 4-5 more days and then if all is well he will be able to come home. Keep praying that healing continues. Thanks.......... Best regards, Doug -------------- Original message from "Nichols, Ross K." : -------------- > Doug, > > I am on it. Please give me an update. Today is the one date specifically > mentioned in Scripture that God says he will bless from this day forward-the > 24th day of the 9th month on the Hebrew calendar. I am believing this for your > family! > See Haggai chapter 2! > > Shalom, Ross > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: obannon at bellsouth.net > To: Nichols, Ross K. > Sent: Tue Dec 04 16:07:19 2007 > Subject: Prayers > > Ross, > I am in San Antonio where my son Paul is in ICU. He had sinus surgery and as a > result the frontal lobe of his brain was penetrated and is leaking fluid. We > are in a watchful waiting mo de and things seem to be doing OK at present. If it > does not heal in its own surgery will be required and that is not a good option. > Please ask your flock to pray for healing for Paul. > Thank you, > Doug O'Bannon > _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/a29ba35b/attachment.html From dennyj at mac.com Wed Dec 5 12:31:25 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:31:25 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers In-Reply-To: <768583.96163.qm@web57109.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <768583.96163.qm@web57109.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ross, Count us in, too. Hashem is faithful. We have seen that. Shalom, Denny Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play. On Wednesday, December 05, 2007, at 12:12PM, "Tammy & Bruce Croley" wrote: >Ross, > Paul and his family will stay in my prayers. Keep us updated. >Shalom, >Tammy > >"Nichols, Ross K." wrote: Fyi ? Keep praying. > > Ross K. Nichols > Operations Excellence > Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 > Cellular - 225.588.1575 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: obannon at bellsouth.net [mailto:obannon at bellsouth.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:51 AM > To: Nichols, Ross K. > Subject: Re: Prayers > > Ross, > This morning it appears thru visual observation that the leakage has stopped. Great news! He will have a CT scam soon to verify that the hole is healing for sure. Paul will remain in ICU for 4-5 more days and then if all is well he will be able to come home. Keep praying that healing continues. Thanks.......... > Best regards, > Doug > -------------- Original message from "Nichols, Ross K." : -------------- > > > > Doug, > > > > I am on it. Please give me an update. Today is the one date specifically > > mentioned in Scripture that God says he will bless from this day forward-the > > 24th day of the 9th month on the Hebrew calendar. I am believing this for your > > family! > > See Haggai chapter 2! > > > > Shalom, Ross > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: obannon at bellsouth.net > > To: Nichols, Ross K. > > Sent: Tue Dec 04 16:07:19 2007 > > Subject: Prayers > > > > Ross, > > I am in San Antonio where my son Paul is in ICU. He had sinus surgery and as a > > result the frontal lobe of his brain was penetrated and is leaking fluid. We > > are in a watchful waiting mo de and things seem to be doing OK at present. If it > > does not heal in its own surgery will be required and that is not a good option. > > Please ask your flock to pray for healing for Paul. > > Thank you, > > Doug O'Bannon > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." > Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 > > >--------------------------------- >Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Dec 5 12:38:41 2007 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:38:41 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Message-ID: Sorry hit the wrong button the first time. **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/93459d51/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:22:46 EST Size: 44274 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/93459d51/attachment.mht From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Dec 5 13:50:17 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 14:50:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For what it is worth I can pass along to you that the late David Horowtiz, who spent over 60 years at the UN as a Jewish correspondent watching the comings and goings of the nations, always held that the US, when worse came to worse, would not abandon Israel. I have felt he was right, even though we have had very strong anti-Israel elements in our State department at times. I am also convinced that the latter prophecies of Zechariah are in some kind of prophetic/chronological order. No matter how historical one might read them, even the most critical scholars would be hard pressed to place all the visions that Zechariah had in his own time, i.e., the 6th century BCE under Persian rule. It is simple not that kind of book, particularly chapters 8-14. Even the early chapters are explicitly said to be proleptic--the 6:9-15 and the making of the "crowns." These Persian period returnees knew well that they were not seeing what Isaiah and Jeremiah had predicted, and I think those of the 20th century who have "returned to Zion" have also realized the full meaning of the Prophets has not come about but perhaps their return represents an inauguration. Zech 8 is about as "chronological" as any text we find in the Hebrew Prophets. Chap 9-1 is an Oracle, as is 12-14. James Tabor On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:19 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > I find this paper of James Tabor as historically foundational of > things that have been and things to come. Since God is a God of > patterns, things that have occurred in the historical context of the > times, have a way in similarity to repeat when circumstances seem to > present a likely scenario. Being caution as to what we might observe > in current situations as the paper of James is, where we are and > what we might expect in our generation, I think we must enter with > care. I wish to present a few thoughts with hope that others might > have comment from their own observations. I think as James > highlights Hos 6:2, After two days will he revive us: in the third > day he will raise us up, and we will live in his light, from the > principle of a day as a thousand years and a thousand years as a > day, I wonder if the same pattern might be observed in Zech 13:7-9? > > That is from the desolations of the second temple in 70 CE, the > scattering of the Jewish people into the nations, I wonder if vs 7-8 > might be looked at as Zechariah's bridge across time? If so, then v > 8 may very well correspond to Hos 6:2, again bringing us in time to > the third day. On the bases of Judah having to be put between a rock > and a hard place before they turn back to the God of the fathers, I > wonder if what we read in Isaiah 11 might be in historical > progression? Although this is speculation, it seems that our nation > is bent on putting the little nation of Israel between a rock and a > hard place. In light of the attempt to place the enemies of Israel > at their front and back door, could we be moving Israel into a > situation where Isa 11:13-16, 12:1-6, will demand we join with Judah > and fly down upon her enemies? I realize the United States has > become a melting pot for all things detestable as Rome became, but > could we be at the core especially as out nation began, Joseph/ > Ephraim? Again this is only speculation. Any one have comment? > > Clyde > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/f6dcd7a6/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Dec 5 15:22:15 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:22:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers In-Reply-To: <20071205130115.8ASL7.325539.root@fepweb13> Message-ID: <8CA059C0AD785B1-41C-1467@FWM-D17.sysops.aol.com> May he be granted a Refuah Shlema - a complete and total recovery!? I will keep him in my prayers. ? ??????????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: kim.alvarado at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Cc: Nichols, Ross K. Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 1:01 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers Great new! I will continue praying. Kim ---- "Nichols wrote: ============= Fyi - Keep praying. Ross K. Nichols Operations Excellence Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 Cellular - 225.588.1575 -----Original Message----- From: obannon at bellsouth.net [mailto:obannon at bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:51 AM To: Nichols, Ross K. Subject: Re: Prayers Ross, This morning it appears thru visual observation that the leakage has stopped. Great news! He will have a CT scam soon to verify that the hole is healing for sure. Paul will remain in ICU for 4-5 more days and then if all is well he will be able to come home. Keep praying that healing continues. Thanks.......... Best regards, Doug -------------- Original message from "Nichols, Ross K." : -------------- > Doug, > > I am on it. Please give me an update. Today is the one date specifically > mentioned in Scripture that God says he will bless from this day forward-the > 24th day of the 9th month on the Hebrew calendar. I am believing this for your > family! > See Haggai chapter 2! > > Shalom, Ross > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: obannon at bellsouth.net > To: Nichols, Ross K. > Sent: Tue Dec 04 16:07:19 2007 > Subject: Prayers > > Ross, > I am in San Antonio where my son Paul is in ICU. He had sinus surgery and as a > result the frontal lobe of his brain was penetrated and is leaking fluid. We > are in a watchful waiting mo de and things seem to be doing OK at present. If it > does not heal in its own surgery will be required and that is not a good option. > Please ask your flock to pray for healing for Paul. > Thank you, > Doug O'Bannon > _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/4831bedc/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Wed Dec 5 16:49:24 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:49:24 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hanoch, I am finally finding time to catch up. Next to your saga, this is wonderful but I am still behind in reading, so I will still discover more gems. I am passing this on to my other lists, Thanks for all your contributions. On Dec 4, 2007, at 6:57 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a > sense of humor! :-) > Hanoch > Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and > top money wasters of 2007. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/0d51fb01/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Wed Dec 5 16:52:14 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:52:14 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Maybe the Torah is really Tamar's story. References: <003201c831d5$0de95650$c701000a@RabbiGershon> Message-ID: <24E1EF8D-13C6-4B6C-A993-B4BD1652B256@alaska.com> Comments appreciated? http://www3.jrf.org/ > > NOTE: Remember that Tamar was also of the people that Israelites were > FORBIDDEN to marry linage of the Seven Canaanite Nations, yet, > because she > actively CHOSE to cross the boundaries forbidden to her, she became > the > progenitor of the Messiah prototype, King David (and Jesus) > > Dear Recon-DT Subscribers, > > I'm pleased to present a dvar-Torah from Dr. Ellen Dannin > for parashat Vayeshev.Visit the Dvar Torah section of the JRF web > site at: > http://www4.jrf.org/recon-dt to see divrei-Torah from years past. > > Send your dvar-Torah submissions to recon-dt at lists.jrf.org > > Tamar the Hidden > by Ellen Dannin > > Parashat Vayeshev > Genesis 37:1 - 40:23 > > Maybe the Torah is really Tamar's story. Seen from that perspective, > Judah's interlude with Tamar is not an annoying interruption placed > between Joseph's sale into slavery and Joseph's encounter with > Potiphar's wife . Maybe we need to know Tamar better. After all > Psalm 92 > tells us, "tzaddik k'tamar" - the wise/just are like Tamar. They are > planted in the house of God, where they fruit and send out seed in > order > to tell of God's uprightness. > > So what does it mean to be like Tamar? > > A straight reading of the story seems to tell us nothing that suggests > we would be wise to be like Tamar. She is a sad person, a levirate > wife > who is mistreated by her father-in-law Judah after her husband > dies. She > becomes pregnant after her tricking Judah into having sex with her. > And > she is only able to do that by pretending to be a prostitute. > > But step back, and we see that this encounter with Tamar pushes > Judah to > take on his true identity as a compassionate and wise leader. Recall > that Judah calls Tamar not a zona (common prostitute) but a > kadeisha (a > cult prostitute), and the root word in kadeisha is k-d-sh - holy. > > Indeed, Tamar's actions remind me of those of lamed vavnikim - the 36 > hidden righteous ones who by their collective saintliness hold this > world together. It is important to realize that lamed vavnikim are not > sweet plaster saints. They have the hard task of pushing us to be > better. As a lamed vavnik, Tamar forces Judah to see exactly who he is > and then push him to become someone far better. > > It is not a pretty or easy process. Tamar tells Judah that the > price for > sex is a goat. Now goats are something Judah knows a lot about - > and not > just because he is part of a herding culture. Not too long before, > Judah > dipped Joseph's coat in goat blood so he could deceive his father > Jacob > about Joseph's death. > > But Judah has no goat with him on this trip, and Tamar knows all too > well that he is a deceiver. So Tamar demands that Judah give her > collateral if he wants to have sex with her. She takes Judah's seal, > staff, and ring - his very identity. And then she seems to have > disappeared from his life. While most men in his position might be > happy > not to see this woman again, it creates a serious problem for > Judah. He > needs his seal, staff, and ring. > > Judah tries to find her and give her the promised goat so he can > get his > collateral back, but the kadeisha cannot be found. To be a man in his > position without a seal, staff, and ring of office must have been > extremely uncomfortable, constantly - and at every important event - > forcing him to recall his behavior. What subterfuges did he engage > in to > prevent revealing what he had done? > > And then, at the moment Judah thinks he will be publicly calling his > daughter-in-law Tamar to account for her immoral behavior, suddenly it > is Judah who is on trial. When Tamar reveals Judah's seal, staff, and > ring in public, she forces Judah to acknowledge before all that he, > like > Esau with Jacob, is a man who is willing to sell himself cheap. > > By stealing Judah's trappings of identity, his badges of high office, > Tamar puts Judah in a position in which he has no choice but to reveal > the pitiful wretch he actually is. And in doing so, she forces > Judah to > reject all he has been and to become the righteous, good, tender, > caring > man we see in Egypt. > > So when the story ends, Tamar only seems to wander out of history. The > reality is that Tamar is a person who makes history. If we pay > attention, we will see the connections. > > We will recall that we Yehudim (Jews) are Yehuda's (Judah's) > children - > both in name and in reality. We will see that, but for Tamar, there > would be no Jewish people. Without her intervention, would Judah have > had the courage to lead his brothers to reconciliation and > redemption in > Egypt? If not, they would have all died of starvation in Canaan. And > King David would never have been, since Tamar and Judah are his > ancestors. > > But Tamar is not forgotten by the wise. King David remembered. He > named > one daughter Tamar. And every week, the Psalmist reminds us that the > wise and just are like Tamar. > -- > > Dr. Ellen Dannin is a Professor of Law, Penn State's Dickinson > School of Law > and a former member of the Ann Arbor Havurah and Dor Hadash in San > Diego. > > -- > Rabbi Shai Gluskin > Director of Publications and Online Resources > Jewish Reconstructionist Federation > 215-885-5601 ext. 31 > sgluskin at jrf.org > http://www4.jrf.org > ____________________________________________________________ > See other divrei-Torah and submit your own at the JRF web site at: > http://www4.jrf.org/1/recon-dt/ > > Visit the new JRF web site at: http://www3.jrf.org/ > > > From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Dec 5 16:55:25 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 17:55:25 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch in Church Message-ID: <8CA05A90EA9F9F4-8E8-4D4E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), ???? Hanukkah Sameach!? I know the subject line was a bit "eye-catching" perhaps, but you can blame it on my daughter Kyra (yeah, the 'mini-me' one).? I had told her that I had written those parts of my 'saga' to you folks, and she asked me to send them to her immediately.? In fact, she said that I should turn it into an?autobiography (hey - have some of you guys been writing her on the side??? LOL).? She then began to remind me (as if phone cards to Israel weren't costing me money during this call...) of a number of stories that I've told her over the years.? For those of you who haven't YET had your fill of hearing about my rather strange life experiences...here you go with some more.... ?? When I was in elementary school (P.S.46 - the Edgar Alan Poe School) in the Bronx, they used to let us go home for lunch, since we all lived in the neighborhood. Well, one day, in 2nd grade, I was returning to school, and got up to the second floor, only to see smoke pouring out of MY classroom!!? I got closer and closer to the classroom (VERY clever of me, don't you think?), and saw flames shooting out of what was (had been, actually..) our closet area.? The alarms were going off, smoke was filling the hall and kids were running around screaming like chickens without their heads!? I don't remember seeing any teachers, but the older kids were all yelling, "run for your lives..!!!"? It was all incredibly dramatic, looking back on it.? Years later, thinking about it, I wondered what ever happened to all those orderly fire drills we used to do - no talking, walking in straight lines, etc....it was nothing but chaos! While the cool NYFD (Ayala, my eldest has confirmed that New York does indeed have the best looking Firefighters..) came to put out the fire, all the classes were led across the street to OLR - Our Lady of Refuge...the imposing Catholic Church (and school).? All I knew about OLR was that the toughest Irish kids in the neighborhood went there...oh, great....just my luck, huh??? But we didn't go into the classrooms, we went into their Church! Now you have to realize, that other then in movies, I had never even SEEN the inside of a Church, a Roman Catholic one, at that.? It was HUGE (I was a little kid, after all), and dark...although there were plenty of lights, and candles in the front - on what looked like a stage...and I knew that's where the priests sat. For this little Jewish boy, it was really scary....I knew that the Catholics had not exactly been kind to the Jews, and I already knew the kind of rabid Jew-haters that OLR produced.? So, I kind of felt like Woody Allen in that movie, where he?refers to Germans by?saying, "um...my family's had some bad experiences with them.." The HUGE statue of Jesus, crucified?on the cross (with thorns on his head, and?blood dripping down) was both frightening and riveting at the same time.? I was totally shocked by what was around me, I had never seen anything like it.? I do remember wondering how it was that Jesus was SO white, and fair skinned, at least how that statue portrayed him. But after a while, boredom set in, and the novelty of sitting in a Church pew wore off (see how quickly I assimilated?? LOL), and I grew accustomed to my settings.? But I was looking for something to do - and no one had brought any comic books!!!? Darn!!? Comics, BTW were 12 cents then... James, the boy next to me (also Jewish) began talking to me about Hebrew School - we both attended different ones (the Bronx still had Jews living there at that time), and he bragged that at his school they were learning to read!! Take that!!!? (picture a tongue being stuck out..) "Well," I retaliated, "we are too!"? In fact, I actually had my Hebrew reading book with me, since I was going to Hebrew School right after (regular) school.? Since he was a bit ahead of me, he helped me with the letters.? Now picture this - we're in a ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH? and we're practicing to read Hebrew.? Many of you probably know the beginner stuff with the letter Aleph -? Ah, aw, at, am, etc.? We quickly progressed to a Bet - Ba, bor, be bat, etc.. Just then, a priest walked by, with a big ruddy face, and a thick Irish accent.? "Now, what are you boys reading there?" he asked.? Without any sense that something was bizarre, I held up my book and proudly said, "We're practicing Hebrew!"?? He seemed stunned, and then muttered...."I see..." and stormed away.? It wasn't until I told my mom the story that night, that she pointed out why the priest seemed to act the way they did. I guess I got better at interfaith stuff later in life.... ???????? Hanoch ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/3dd6046d/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Dec 5 16:58:07 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 17:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA05A96F5370D2-8E8-4D6A@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Hey Bonnie - ??? You're VERY welcome - I'm in a hyper-typing mode, so count on lots of email from me!? Glad you've found it interesting or useful.? Have a WONDERFUL Hanukkah!! ??????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Bonnie Nelson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 5:49 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Hanoch, I am finally finding time to catch up. Next to your saga, this is wonderful but I am still behind in reading, so I will still discover more gems. I am passing this on to my other lists, Thanks for all your contributions. ? On Dec 4, 2007, at 6:57 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a sense of humor!?? :-) ??? ??? Hanoch Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ = _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/1186e1f0/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Wed Dec 5 17:19:34 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:19:34 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? Message-ID: Hanoch, I have been trying to meet and talk to as many different Jewish friends both here and in the lower 48 to help me choose between Reform or Reconstructionist. At this time I am not wanting to study with Conservative or Orthodox. Which are you? The classes are free at our Reform Synagogue (http://www.frozenchosen.org/aboutus/history/) but Rabbi Oblath says it may take up to 2 years before I could convert. Sure different than Christian denominations. There is no Reconstructionist congregation here. Do you believe Jesus was/is the Messiah, and that he was/is God or Son of God? You said I was free to ask you questions about your perspectives about Judaism. Hope these are OK? Here is a neat site about Alaska Jews http://www.jbuff.com/c081204.htm Bonnie From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Dec 5 17:39:25 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:39:25 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA05AF34569E2C-8E8-500E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Dear Bonnie, ??? Firstly, you can ask me ANY question, ANY time?- no problem.? I do have to run to a meeting now (this job WILL kill me..), and I want to answer you questions in detail.? So I will have to follow up with you later, or tommorrow.? I will do whatever I can, including suggesting reading materials, etc for whichever direction you feel is YOUR path. ??? Although I HATE pigeon-hole definitions, I?would be considered "Modern Orthodox," and I have no opinion vis a vis Jesus.? In my view, not to insult anyone with a different view, HE WAS NOT G-D OR THE MESSIAH, AND NOT THE SON OF G-D. ???? I will write more within the next day, sooner if?I can.? But you can ask me anything, truly... ???? Very best regards, ??????????? Hanoch ???? -----Original Message----- From: Bonnie Nelson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:19 pm Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? Hanoch,? ? I have been trying to meet and talk to as many different Jewish friends both here and in the lower 48 to help me choose between Reform or Reconstructionist. At this time I am not wanting to study with Conservative or Orthodox. Which are you? The classes are free at our Reform Synagogue (http://www.frozenchosen.org/aboutus/history/) but Rabbi Oblath says it may take up to 2 years before I could convert. Sure different than Christian denominations. There is no Reconstructionist congregation here. Do you believe Jesus was/is the Messiah, and that he was/is God or Son of God? You said I was free to ask you questions about your perspectives about Judaism. Hope these are OK?? ? Here is a neat site about Alaska Jews? ?http://www.jbuff.com/c081204.htm? Bonnie? _______________________________________________? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/8e996382/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Dec 5 17:44:14 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:44:14 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? In-Reply-To: <8CA05AF34569E2C-8E8-500E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA05AF34569E2C-8E8-500E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CA05AFE0A20E14-8E8-504E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> A note to the group - ???? Friends, I was not trying to insult ANYONE, or their attitude regarding who Jesus was, is, or might be.? But I WAS asked a direct question about my personal beliefs,and my beliefs as a Jew.? Please understand - and I fully respect anyone who has a different opinion within this group.? Remember, I'm the guy with the different background? :-) ??? In the spirit of friendship and dialogue, ??????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? Dear Bonnie, ??? Firstly, you can ask me ANY question, ANY time?- no problem.? I do have to run to a meeting now (this job WILL kill me..), and I want to answer you questions in detail.? So I will have to follow up with you later, or tommorrow.? I will do whatever I can, including suggesting reading materials, etc for whichever direction you feel is YOUR path. ??? Although I HATE pigeon-hole definitions, I?would be considered "Modern Orthodox," and I have no opinion vis a vis Jesus.? In my view, not to insult anyone with a different view, HE WAS NOT G-D OR THE MESSIAH, AND NOT THE SON OF G-D. ???? I will write more within the next day, sooner if?I can.? But you can ask me anything, truly... ???? Very best regards, ??????????? Hanoch ???? -----Original Message----- From: Bonnie Nelson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:19 pm Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? Hanoch,? ? I have been trying to meet and talk to as many different Jewish friends both here and in the lower 48 to help me choose between Reform or Reconstructionist. At this time I am not wanting to study with Conservative or Orthodox. Which are you? The classes are free at our Reform Synagogue (http://www.frozenchosen.org/aboutus/history/) but Rabbi Oblath says it may take up to 2 years before I could convert. Sure different than Christian denominations. There is no Reconstructionist congregation here. Do you believe Jesus was/is the Messiah, and that he was/is God or Son of God? You said I was free to ask you questions about your perspectives about Judaism. Hope these are OK?? ? Here is a neat site about Alaska Jews? ?http://www.jbuff.com/c081204.htm? Bonnie? _______________________________________________? More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/7764981f/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Wed Dec 5 17:46:13 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:46:13 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? In-Reply-To: <8CA05AF34569E2C-8E8-500E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA05AF34569E2C-8E8-500E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thank you very much ... whenever will be great. Bonnie On Dec 5, 2007, at 2:39 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: > Dear Bonnie, > > Firstly, you can ask me ANY question, ANY time - no problem. I > do have to run to a meeting now (this job WILL kill me..), and I > want to answer you questions in detail. So I will have to follow > up with you later, or tommorrow. I will do whatever I can, > including suggesting reading materials, etc for whichever direction > you feel is YOUR path. > > Although I HATE pigeon-hole definitions, I would be considered > "Modern Orthodox," and I have no opinion vis a vis Jesus. In my > view, not to insult anyone with a different view, HE WAS NOT G-D OR > THE MESSIAH, AND NOT THE SON OF G-D. > > I will write more within the next day, sooner if I can. But > you can ask me anything, truly... > > Very best regards, > Hanoch > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bonnie Nelson > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:19 pm > Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? > > Hanoch, > I have been trying to meet and talk to as many different Jewish > friends both here and in the lower 48 to help me choose between > Reform or Reconstructionist. At this time I am not wanting to study > with Conservative or Orthodox. Which are you? The classes are free > at our Reform Synagogue (http://www.frozenchosen.org/aboutus/ > history/) but Rabbi Oblath says it may take up to 2 years before I > could convert. Sure different than Christian denominations. There > is no Reconstructionist congregation here. Do you believe Jesus was/ > is the Messiah, and that he was/is God or Son of God? You said I > was free to ask you questions about your perspectives about > Judaism. Hope these are OK? > Here is a neat site about Alaska Jews > http://www.jbuff.com/c081204.htm > Bonnie > _______________________________________________ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/45bf0be9/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 5 18:18:24 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 00:18:24 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? In-Reply-To: <8CA05AFE0A20E14-8E8-504E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA05AF34569E2C-8E8-500E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com><8CA05AFE0A20E14-8E8-504E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1227577029-1196900313-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-91632370-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> No problem Hanoch. No thin skins in this bunch. ;-{)} Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: youngbarzel at aol.com Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:44:14 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? A note to the group - ? ???? Friends, I was not trying to insult ANYONE, or their attitude regarding who Jesus was, is, or might be.? But I WAS asked a direct question about my personal beliefs,and my beliefs as a Jew.? Please understand - and I fully respect anyone who has a different opinion within this group.? Remember, I'm the guy with the different background? :-) ? ??? In the spirit of friendship and dialogue, ??????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? Dear Bonnie, ??? Firstly, you can ask me ANY question, ANY time?- no problem.? I do have to run to a meeting now (this job WILL kill me..), and I want to answer you questions in detail.? So I will have to follow up with you later, or tommorrow.? I will do whatever I can, including suggesting reading materials, etc for whichever direction you feel is YOUR path. ??? Although I HATE pigeon-hole definitions, I?would be considered "Modern Orthodox," and I have no opinion vis a vis Jesus.? In my view, not to insult anyone with a different view, HE WAS NOT G-D OR THE MESSIAH, AND NOT THE SON OF G-D. ???? I will write more within the next day, sooner if?I can.? But you can ask me anything, truly... ???? Very best regards, ??????????? Hanoch ???? -----Original Message----- From: Bonnie Nelson > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:19 pm Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? Hanoch,? ? I have been trying to meet and talk to as many different Jewish friends both here and in the lower 48 to help me choose between Reform or Reconstructionist. At this time I am not wanting to study with Conservative or Orthodox. Which are you? The classes are free at our Reform Synagogue (http://www.frozenchosen.org/aboutus/history/ ) but Rabbi Oblath says it may take up to 2 years before I could convert. Sure different than Christian denominations. There is no Reconstructionist congregation here. Do you believe Jesus was/is the Messiah, and that he was/is God or Son of God? You said I was free to ask you questions about your perspectives about Judaism. Hope these are OK?? ? Here is a neat site about Alaska Jews? ?http://www.jbuff.com/c081204.htm ? Bonnie? _______________________________________________? ---------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From dhcole1 at cox.net Wed Dec 5 19:41:20 2007 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 19:41:20 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers References: Message-ID: <014b01c837a9$1aa2b290$6400a8c0@davesbook> Hello all, I feel led to amplify some details about Doug. He has asked us to pray. He is a sweet older gentleman. He spent many Saturdays with Roots Of Faith early on. He has a genuine gentle spirit about him. He and his wife have celebrated their 50th. anniversary together. Doug provided much stability early on in this work when we were all learning to get along and listen to each other. I pray that all will work out for his son and that Doug and his family can see HIS hand in this situation and its outcome. thanks guys dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Nichols, Ross K. To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:57 AM Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers Fyi - Keep praying. Ross K. Nichols Operations Excellence Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 Cellular - 225.588.1575 -----Original Message----- From: obannon at bellsouth.net [mailto:obannon at bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:51 AM To: Nichols, Ross K. Subject: Re: Prayers Ross, This morning it appears thru visual observation that the leakage has stopped. Great news! He will have a CT scam soon to verify that the hole is healing for sure. Paul will remain in ICU for 4-5 more days and then if all is well he will be able to come home. Keep praying that healing continues. Thanks.......... Best regards, Doug -------------- Original message from "Nichols, Ross K." : -------------- > Doug, > > I am on it. Please give me an update. Today is the one date specifically > mentioned in Scripture that God says he will bless from this day forward-the > 24th day of the 9th month on the Hebrew calendar. I am believing this for your > family! > See Haggai chapter 2! > > Shalom, Ross > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: obannon at bellsouth.net > To: Nichols, Ross K. > Sent: Tue Dec 04 16:07:19 2007 > Subject: Prayers > > Ross, > I am in San Antonio where my son Paul is in ICU. He had sinus surgery and as a > result the frontal lobe of his brain was penetrated and is leaking fluid. We > are in a watchful waiting mo de and things seem to be doing OK at present. If it > does not heal in its own surgery will be required and that is not a good option. > Please ask your flock to pray for healing for Paul. > Thank you, > Doug O'Bannon > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/1bb12030/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Dec 5 19:43:11 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 19:43:11 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ba01c837a9$5cbe8690$653c66c9@bettygivin> Doug, thanks so much for letting us know about Paul, so that we can have the privilege of going to HaShem in prayer. How old is your son? Are you from San Antonio or near by or just there for your son's medical treatment? We used to live there, and I still get down there occasionally. It would be great to meet you. Please keep us posted. May Paul be blessed with a complete healing and may you be blessed with the shalom that comes from knowing that Paul is in the hands of HaShem. Betty Givin -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 12:31 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers Ross, Count us in, too. Hashem is faithful. We have seen that. Shalom, Denny Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play. On Wednesday, December 05, 2007, at 12:12PM, "Tammy & Bruce Croley" wrote: >Ross, > Paul and his family will stay in my prayers. Keep us updated. >Shalom, >Tammy > >"Nichols, Ross K." wrote: Fyi - Keep praying. > > Ross K. Nichols > Operations Excellence > Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 > Cellular - 225.588.1575 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: obannon at bellsouth.net [mailto:obannon at bellsouth.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:51 AM > To: Nichols, Ross K. > Subject: Re: Prayers > > Ross, > This morning it appears thru visual observation that the leakage has stopped. Great news! He will have a CT scam soon to verify that the hole is healing for sure. Paul will remain in ICU for 4-5 more days and then if all is well he will be able to come home. Keep praying that healing continues. Thanks.......... > Best regards, > Doug > -------------- Original message from "Nichols, Ross K." : -------------- > > > > Doug, > > > > I am on it. Please give me an update. Today is the one date specifically > > mentioned in Scripture that God says he will bless from this day forward-the > > 24th day of the 9th month on the Hebrew calendar. I am believing this for your > > family! > > See Haggai chapter 2! > > > > Shalom, Ross > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: obannon at bellsouth.net > > To: Nichols, Ross K. > > Sent: Tue Dec 04 16:07:19 2007 > > Subject: Prayers > > > > Ross, > > I am in San Antonio where my son Paul is in ICU. He had sinus surgery and as a > > result the frontal lobe of his brain was penetrated and is leaking fluid. We > > are in a watchful waiting mo de and things seem to be doing OK at present. If it > > does not heal in its own surgery will be required and that is not a good option. > > Please ask your flock to pray for healing for Paul. > > Thank you, > > Doug O'Bannon > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." > Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 > > >--------------------------------- >Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > _______________________________________________ From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 5 19:47:42 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 01:47:42 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers In-Reply-To: <014b01c837a9$1aa2b290$6400a8c0@davesbook> References: <014b01c837a9$1aa2b290$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <1206067902-1196905671-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788919388-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Amen Dave. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Dave Cole" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 19:41:20 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers Hello all,?? I feel led to amplify some details about Doug.? He?has asked us to pray. ? He is a sweet older gentleman.? He?spent many Saturdays with Roots Of Faith early on.?? He has a genuine gentle spirit about him.?? He and his wife have celebrated their 50th.?anniversary?together.?? Doug provided much stability early on in this work when?we were all?learning to get along and?listen?to each other.?? I pray that all will work out for his son and that Doug and his family can see HIS hand in this situation and its outcome.?? ? ? ? thanks guys dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Nichols, Ross K. To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:57 AM Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers Fyi ? Keep praying. ? Ross K. Nichols Operations Excellence Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 Cellular - 225.588.1575 ? -----Original Message----- From: obannon at bellsouth.net [mailto:obannon at bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:51 AM To: Nichols, Ross K. Subject: Re: Prayers ? Ross, This morning it appears thru visual observation that the leakage has stopped. Great news!? He will have a CT scam soon to verify that the hole is healing for sure.? Paul will remain in ICU for 4-5 more days and then if all is well he will be able to come home.? Keep praying that?healing continues.? Thanks.......... Best regards, Doug? -------------- Original message from "Nichols, Ross K." : -------------- > Doug, > > I am on it. Please give me an update. Today is the one date specifically > mentioned in Scripture that God says he will bless from this day forward-the > 24th day of the 9th month on the Hebrew calendar. I am believing this for your > family! > See Haggai chapter 2! > > Shalom, Ross > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: obannon at bellsouth.net > To: Nichols, Ross K. > Sent: Tue Dec 04 16:07:19 2007 > Subject: Prayers > > Ross, > I am in San Antonio where my son Paul is in ICU. He had sinus surgery and as a > result the frontal lobe of his brain was penetrated and is leaking fluid. We > are in a watchful waiting mo de and things seem to be doing OK at present. If it > does not heal in its own surgery will be required and that is not a good option. > Please ask your flock to pray for healing for Paul. > Thank you, > Doug O'Bannon > ---------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Dec 5 20:15:37 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:15:37 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Maybe the Torah is really Tamar's story. In-Reply-To: <24E1EF8D-13C6-4B6C-A993-B4BD1652B256@alaska.com> References: <003201c831d5$0de95650$c701000a@RabbiGershon> <24E1EF8D-13C6-4B6C-A993-B4BD1652B256@alaska.com> Message-ID: I think Tamar is absolutely so very very important. I have written a lot about this in the past and will try to get time this Shabbat to revisit things...Yayeshev is absolutely my favorite Torah portion. Thanks Bonnie, James Tabor On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:52 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: > Comments appreciated? > > http://www3.jrf.org/ >> >> NOTE: Remember that Tamar was also of the people that Israelites were >> FORBIDDEN to marry linage of the Seven Canaanite Nations, yet, >> because she >> actively CHOSE to cross the boundaries forbidden to her, she became >> the >> progenitor of the Messiah prototype, King David (and Jesus) >> >> Dear Recon-DT Subscribers, >> >> I'm pleased to present a dvar-Torah from Dr. Ellen Dannin >> for parashat Vayeshev.Visit the Dvar Torah section of the JRF web >> site at: >> http://www4.jrf.org/recon-dt to see divrei-Torah from years past. >> >> Send your dvar-Torah submissions to recon-dt at lists.jrf.org >> >> Tamar the Hidden >> by Ellen Dannin >> >> Parashat Vayeshev >> Genesis 37:1 - 40:23 >> >> Maybe the Torah is really Tamar's story. Seen from that perspective, >> Judah's interlude with Tamar is not an annoying interruption placed >> between Joseph's sale into slavery and Joseph's encounter with >> Potiphar's wife . Maybe we need to know Tamar better. After all >> Psalm 92 >> tells us, "tzaddik k'tamar" - the wise/just are like Tamar. They are >> planted in the house of God, where they fruit and send out seed in >> order >> to tell of God's uprightness. >> >> So what does it mean to be like Tamar? >> >> A straight reading of the story seems to tell us nothing that >> suggests >> we would be wise to be like Tamar. She is a sad person, a levirate >> wife >> who is mistreated by her father-in-law Judah after her husband >> dies. She >> becomes pregnant after her tricking Judah into having sex with her. >> And >> she is only able to do that by pretending to be a prostitute. >> >> But step back, and we see that this encounter with Tamar pushes >> Judah to >> take on his true identity as a compassionate and wise leader. Recall >> that Judah calls Tamar not a zona (common prostitute) but a >> kadeisha (a >> cult prostitute), and the root word in kadeisha is k-d-sh - holy. >> >> Indeed, Tamar's actions remind me of those of lamed vavnikim - the 36 >> hidden righteous ones who by their collective saintliness hold this >> world together. It is important to realize that lamed vavnikim are >> not >> sweet plaster saints. They have the hard task of pushing us to be >> better. As a lamed vavnik, Tamar forces Judah to see exactly who he >> is >> and then push him to become someone far better. >> >> It is not a pretty or easy process. Tamar tells Judah that the >> price for >> sex is a goat. Now goats are something Judah knows a lot about - >> and not >> just because he is part of a herding culture. Not too long before, >> Judah >> dipped Joseph's coat in goat blood so he could deceive his father >> Jacob >> about Joseph's death. >> >> But Judah has no goat with him on this trip, and Tamar knows all too >> well that he is a deceiver. So Tamar demands that Judah give her >> collateral if he wants to have sex with her. She takes Judah's seal, >> staff, and ring - his very identity. And then she seems to have >> disappeared from his life. While most men in his position might be >> happy >> not to see this woman again, it creates a serious problem for >> Judah. He >> needs his seal, staff, and ring. >> >> Judah tries to find her and give her the promised goat so he can >> get his >> collateral back, but the kadeisha cannot be found. To be a man in his >> position without a seal, staff, and ring of office must have been >> extremely uncomfortable, constantly - and at every important event - >> forcing him to recall his behavior. What subterfuges did he engage >> in to >> prevent revealing what he had done? >> >> And then, at the moment Judah thinks he will be publicly calling his >> daughter-in-law Tamar to account for her immoral behavior, suddenly >> it >> is Judah who is on trial. When Tamar reveals Judah's seal, staff, and >> ring in public, she forces Judah to acknowledge before all that he, >> like >> Esau with Jacob, is a man who is willing to sell himself cheap. >> >> By stealing Judah's trappings of identity, his badges of high office, >> Tamar puts Judah in a position in which he has no choice but to >> reveal >> the pitiful wretch he actually is. And in doing so, she forces >> Judah to >> reject all he has been and to become the righteous, good, tender, >> caring >> man we see in Egypt. >> >> So when the story ends, Tamar only seems to wander out of history. >> The >> reality is that Tamar is a person who makes history. If we pay >> attention, we will see the connections. >> >> We will recall that we Yehudim (Jews) are Yehuda's (Judah's) >> children - >> both in name and in reality. We will see that, but for Tamar, there >> would be no Jewish people. Without her intervention, would Judah have >> had the courage to lead his brothers to reconciliation and >> redemption in >> Egypt? If not, they would have all died of starvation in Canaan. And >> King David would never have been, since Tamar and Judah are his >> ancestors. >> >> But Tamar is not forgotten by the wise. King David remembered. He >> named >> one daughter Tamar. And every week, the Psalmist reminds us that the >> wise and just are like Tamar. >> -- >> >> Dr. Ellen Dannin is a Professor of Law, Penn State's Dickinson >> School of Law >> and a former member of the Ann Arbor Havurah and Dor Hadash in San >> Diego. >> >> -- >> Rabbi Shai Gluskin >> Director of Publications and Online Resources >> Jewish Reconstructionist Federation >> 215-885-5601 ext. 31 >> sgluskin at jrf.org >> http://www4.jrf.org >> ____________________________________________________________ >> See other divrei-Torah and submit your own at the JRF web site at: >> http://www4.jrf.org/1/recon-dt/ >> >> Visit the new JRF web site at: http://www3.jrf.org/ >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Dec 5 20:19:17 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:19:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch in Church In-Reply-To: <8CA05A90EA9F9F4-8E8-4D4E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA05A90EA9F9F4-8E8-4D4E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7C6BEA31-8F26-41FA-91DB-25FFE21D30B7@earthlink.net> Hanoch, I think the initial pre-Chanukah "rush" of messages with your "Saga" were a way to begin to get it all out. What I think you should do now is offer a set of these kinds of "post-initial saga" reflections, as there are going to be things constantly that come to your mind. What we can then think about is maybe editing this in some way, putting it together more, and publishing it on the Web and perhaps in the UI Bulletin, the Blogs, or whatever...It can be "one person's story," but others could also offer similar things. I think we need a whole Bio section on the UI site...It makes such gripping reading, ALL our collective stories. Take care, James On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:55 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: > Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), > > Hanukkah Sameach! I know the subject line was a bit "eye- > catching" perhaps, but you can blame it on my daughter Kyra (yeah, > the 'mini-me' one). I had told her that I had written those parts > of my 'saga' to you folks, and she asked me to send them to her > immediately. In fact, she said that I should turn it into an > autobiography (hey - have some of you guys been writing her on the > side?? LOL). She then began to remind me (as if phone cards to > Israel weren't costing me money during this call...) of a number of > stories that I've told her over the years. For those of you who > haven't YET had your fill of hearing about my rather strange life > experiences...here you go with some more.... > > When I was in elementary school (P.S.46 - the Edgar Alan Poe > School) in the Bronx, they used to let us go home for lunch, since > we all lived in the neighborhood. Well, one day, in 2nd grade, I was > returning to school, and got up to the second floor, only to see > smoke pouring out of MY classroom!! I got closer and closer to the > classroom (VERY clever of me, don't you think?), and saw flames > shooting out of what was (had been, actually..) our closet area. > > The alarms were going off, smoke was filling the hall and kids were > running around screaming like chickens without their heads! I don't > remember seeing any teachers, but the older kids were all yelling, > "run for your lives..!!!" It was all incredibly dramatic, looking > back on it. Years later, thinking about it, I wondered what ever > happened to all those orderly fire drills we used to do - no > talking, walking in straight lines, etc....it was nothing but chaos! > > While the cool NYFD (Ayala, my eldest has confirmed that New York > does indeed have the best looking Firefighters..) came to put out > the fire, all the classes were led across the street to OLR - Our > Lady of Refuge...the imposing Catholic Church (and school). All I > knew about OLR was that the toughest Irish kids in the neighborhood > went there...oh, great....just my luck, huh? But we didn't go into > the classrooms, we went into their Church! > > Now you have to realize, that other then in movies, I had never even > SEEN the inside of a Church, a Roman Catholic one, at that. It was > HUGE (I was a little kid, after all), and dark...although there were > plenty of lights, and candles in the front - on what looked like a > stage...and I knew that's where the priests sat. > > For this little Jewish boy, it was really scary....I knew that the > Catholics had not exactly been kind to the Jews, and I already knew > the kind of rabid Jew-haters that OLR produced. So, I kind of felt > like Woody Allen in that movie, where he refers to Germans by > saying, "um...my family's had some bad experiences with them.." > > The HUGE statue of Jesus, crucified on the cross (with thorns on his > head, and blood dripping down) was both frightening and riveting at > the same time. I was totally shocked by what was around me, I had > never seen anything like it. I do remember wondering how it was > that Jesus was SO white, and fair skinned, at least how that statue > portrayed him. > > But after a while, boredom set in, and the novelty of sitting in a > Church pew wore off (see how quickly I assimilated? LOL), and I > grew accustomed to my settings. But I was looking for something to > do - and no one had brought any comic books!!! Darn!! Comics, BTW > were 12 cents then... > James, the boy next to me (also Jewish) began talking to me about > Hebrew School - we both attended different ones (the Bronx still had > Jews living there at that time), and he bragged that at his school > they were learning to read!! Take that!!! (picture a tongue being > stuck out..) > > "Well," I retaliated, "we are too!" In fact, I actually had my > Hebrew reading book with me, since I was going to Hebrew School > right after (regular) school. Since he was a bit ahead of me, he > helped me with the letters. Now picture this - we're in a ROMAN > CATHOLIC CHURCH and we're practicing to read Hebrew. Many of you > probably know the beginner stuff with the letter Aleph - Ah, aw, > at, am, etc. We quickly progressed to a Bet - Ba, bor, be bat, etc.. > > Just then, a priest walked by, with a big ruddy face, and a thick > Irish accent. "Now, what are you boys reading there?" he asked. > Without any sense that something was bizarre, I held up my book and > proudly said, "We're practicing Hebrew!" He seemed stunned, and > then muttered...."I see..." and stormed away. It wasn't until I > told my mom the story that night, that she pointed out why the > priest seemed to act the way they did. > > I guess I got better at interfaith stuff later in life.... > > Hanoch > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/3ed8eab9/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Dec 5 20:21:16 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:21:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? In-Reply-To: <8CA05AFE0A20E14-8E8-504E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA05AF34569E2C-8E8-500E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> <8CA05AFE0A20E14-8E8-504E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1B611686-0D22-4DC3-8FB1-74241B1A0582@earthlink.net> Hey, don't worry Hanoch...we don't expect you, our Jewish brother, to be a Christian of any sorts. On the other hand you, unlike many other Jews, have delved deeply in the "quest for the historical Jesus" and have educated yourself in these areas rather than running from his very name. James On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:44 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: > A note to the group - > > Friends, I was not trying to insult ANYONE, or their attitude > regarding who Jesus was, is, or might be. But I WAS asked a direct > question about my personal beliefs,and my beliefs as a Jew. Please > understand - and I fully respect anyone who has a different opinion > within this group. Remember, I'm the guy with the different > background :-) > > In the spirit of friendship and dialogue, > Hanoch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: youngbarzel at aol.com > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:39 pm > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? > > Dear Bonnie, > > Firstly, you can ask me ANY question, ANY time - no problem. I > do have to run to a meeting now (this job WILL kill me..), and I > want to answer you questions in detail. So I will have to follow up > with you later, or tommorrow. I will do whatever I can, including > suggesting reading materials, etc for whichever direction you feel > is YOUR path. > > Although I HATE pigeon-hole definitions, I would be considered > "Modern Orthodox," and I have no opinion vis a vis Jesus. In my > view, not to insult anyone with a different view, HE WAS NOT G-D OR > THE MESSIAH, AND NOT THE SON OF G-D. > > I will write more within the next day, sooner if I can. But > you can ask me anything, truly... > > Very best regards, > Hanoch > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bonnie Nelson > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:19 pm > Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? > > Hanoch, > I have been trying to meet and talk to as many different Jewish > friends both here and in the lower 48 to help me choose between > Reform or Reconstructionist. At this time I am not wanting to study > with Conservative or Orthodox. Which are you? The classes are free > at our Reform Synagogue (http://www.frozenchosen.org/aboutus/ > history/) but Rabbi Oblath says it may take up to 2 years before I > could convert. Sure different than Christian denominations. There is > no Reconstructionist congregation here. Do you believe Jesus was/is > the Messiah, and that he was/is God or Son of God? You said I was > free to ask you questions about your perspectives about Judaism. > Hope these are OK? > Here is a neat site about Alaska Jews > http://www.jbuff.com/c081204.htm > Bonnie > _______________________________________________ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/d82b3f88/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Dec 5 20:34:50 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 20:34:50 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers In-Reply-To: <014b01c837a9$1aa2b290$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <00db01c837b0$9395f7f0$653c66c9@bettygivin> Thanks, Dave. I think my message inquiring about him must have crossed yours in cyber-space. Thanks for the background. Hanukkah Samaech! Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 7:41 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers Hello all, I feel led to amplify some details about Doug. He has asked us to pray. He is a sweet older gentleman. He spent many Saturdays with Roots Of Faith early on. He has a genuine gentle spirit about him. He and his wife have celebrated their 50th. anniversary together. Doug provided much stability early on in this work when we were all learning to get along and listen to each other. I pray that all will work out for his son and that Doug and his family can see HIS hand in this situation and its outcome. thanks guys dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Nichols, Ross K. To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:57 AM Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers Fyi - Keep praying. Ross K. Nichols Operations Excellence Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 Cellular - 225.588.1575 -----Original Message----- From: obannon at bellsouth.net [mailto:obannon at bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:51 AM To: Nichols, Ross K. Subject: Re: Prayers Ross, This morning it appears thru visual observation that the leakage has stopped. Great news! He will have a CT scam soon to verify that the hole is healing for sure. Paul will remain in ICU for 4-5 more days and then if all is well he will be able to come home. Keep praying that healing continues. Thanks.......... Best regards, Doug -------------- Original message from "Nichols, Ross K." : -------------- > Doug, > > I am on it. Please give me an update. Today is the one date specifically > mentioned in Scripture that God says he will bless from this day forward-the > 24th day of the 9th month on the Hebrew calendar. I am believing this for your > family! > See Haggai chapter 2! > > Shalom, Ross > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: obannon at bellsouth.net > To: Nichols, Ross K. > Sent: Tue Dec 04 16:07:19 2007 > Subject: Prayers > > Ross, > I am in San Antonio where my son Paul is in ICU. He had sinus surgery and as a > result the frontal lobe of his brain was penetrated and is leaking fluid. We > are in a watchful waiting mo de and things seem to be doing OK at present. If it > does not heal in its own surgery will be required and that is not a good option. > Please ask your flock to pray for healing for Paul. > Thank you, > Doug O'Bannon > _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/afeb224c/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Dec 5 20:37:49 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:37:49 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch in Church Message-ID: Dear James, Wow...I am so flattered, you have no idea! I would love to keep sharing these things that indeed, have begun to pop into my mind. If we do want to publish them though, I would need to change some of the names for legal-type issues - particularly the undercover cop!!! LOL I wish our pals on the UIWU list could have read the "saga" pieces though, many of those folks have known me for years, and would probably get a huge kick out of reading them. I'm sure they have NO idea who they've been hanging around with all these years! :-) Thanks again, and it's always great to hear from you! Have a Hanukkah Sameach!!! Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/a0fa5e6b/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Wed Dec 5 20:50:55 2007 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 20:50:55 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] crossed yours in cyber-space Message-ID: <003801c837b2$d32f7bf0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Hey Betty, That was odd....as soon as I hit send your message appeared and I'm thinking how did that happen!!!!! Hanukkah Samaech! We must be on the same page. dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/aaf9c88b/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Wed Dec 5 20:54:51 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 17:54:51 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? In-Reply-To: <1B611686-0D22-4DC3-8FB1-74241B1A0582@earthlink.net> References: <8CA05AF34569E2C-8E8-500E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> <8CA05AFE0A20E14-8E8-504E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> <1B611686-0D22-4DC3-8FB1-74241B1A0582@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4D7D345E-B3BE-4B1F-ADC9-A9E61F66A325@alaska.com> correction, I meant a finite Messiah every generation James, Hanoch or anyone, When I asked the Anchorage Rabbi Oblath, Rabbi for our Reform Synagogue, about how some Jews believe in a finite Jesus every generation. He told me that if that were the case he believed it was more likely that Hillel would have been that finite Messiah rather than Jesus. Right after that he taught a class about the history of Messianism or some similar title I can't remember exactly, and I missed it. What are your thoughts about the history of there being a finite Messiah every generation? Bonnie On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:21 PM, James Tabor wrote: > Hey, don't worry Hanoch...we don't expect you, our Jewish brother, > to be a Christian of any sorts. On the other hand you, unlike many > other Jews, have delved deeply in the "quest for the historical > Jesus" and have educated yourself in these areas rather than > running from his very name. > > James > > > On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:44 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: > >> A note to the group - >> >> Friends, I was not trying to insult ANYONE, or their attitude >> regarding who Jesus was, is, or might be. But I WAS asked a >> direct question about my personal beliefs,and my beliefs as a >> Jew. Please understand - and I fully respect anyone who has a >> different opinion within this group. Remember, I'm the guy with >> the different background :-) >> >> In the spirit of friendship and dialogue, >> Hanoch >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: youngbarzel at aol.com >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:39 pm >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? >> >> Dear Bonnie, >> >> Firstly, you can ask me ANY question, ANY time - no problem. >> I do have to run to a meeting now (this job WILL kill me..), and I >> want to answer you questions in detail. So I will have to follow >> up with you later, or tommorrow. I will do whatever I can, >> including suggesting reading materials, etc for whichever >> direction you feel is YOUR path. >> >> Although I HATE pigeon-hole definitions, I would be considered >> "Modern Orthodox," and I have no opinion vis a vis Jesus. In my >> view, not to insult anyone with a different view, HE WAS NOT G-D >> OR THE MESSIAH, AND NOT THE SON OF G-D. >> >> I will write more within the next day, sooner if I can. But >> you can ask me anything, truly... >> >> Very best regards, >> Hanoch >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bonnie Nelson >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:19 pm >> Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? >> >> Hanoch, >> I have been trying to meet and talk to as many different Jewish >> friends both here and in the lower 48 to help me choose between >> Reform or Reconstructionist. At this time I am not wanting to >> study with Conservative or Orthodox. Which are you? The classes >> are free at our Reform Synagogue (http://www.frozenchosen.org/ >> aboutus/history/) but Rabbi Oblath says it may take up to 2 years >> before I could convert. Sure different than Christian >> denominations. There is no Reconstructionist congregation here. Do >> you believe Jesus was/is the Messiah, and that he was/is God or >> Son of God? You said I was free to ask you questions about your >> perspectives about Judaism. Hope these are OK? >> Here is a neat site about Alaska Jews >> http://www.jbuff.com/c081204.htm >> Bonnie >> _______________________________________________ >> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! >> _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/b556309c/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Dec 5 21:01:27 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:01:27 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] crossed yours in cyber-space In-Reply-To: <003801c837b2$d32f7bf0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <010001c837b4$4bb0d460$653c66c9@bettygivin> Dave, I think we very well might be on the same page! Please give your sweet Sherry a hug! Hanukkah Samaech to you as well! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 8:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] crossed yours in cyber-space Hey Betty, That was odd....as soon as I hit send your message appeared and I'm thinking how did that happen!!!!! Hanukkah Samaech! We must be on the same page. dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/553541fe/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Dec 5 21:10:49 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:10:49 EST Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? Message-ID: Hey James! And I have you (and what you've written) to thank, for the background I now have in both the New Testament in general, and Yeshua in particular. That, and countless hours of discussions with Ross, and with my pal, Dell. That, and actually reading the New Testament, more then once. I have actually gotten considerable flack from "friends" within the Jewish community who have thought my interest in the early Christian period (from Nazarenes, to Ebionites, to the early 'Jewish-Christians') is "wrong," "VERY dangerous," and "Weird!" And those are all direct quotes! I've gotten into an argument (in my own home!) with a guest, about Yaakov, Yeshua's brother ("James the Just") - I had just finished Eisenman's huge book that week. He was stunned the way I described him, as a 'Tzadik' (Righteous) man, but he would have passed out if he had asked me about Yeshua (it's a LONG story, but I think he is totally misunderstood in the Jewish community, let alone the Christian one!) I have tons of questions about the NT, and it's message for the Lost Tribes; I'm waiting for Ross (when he retires...) to write something about that :-) My daughter Kyra also got into trouble in school over my "unusual interest," as a matter of fact. It was right when the "Passion of the Christ" has just come out, and somehow, it was mentioned in her class (Kyra went to Yeshiva University's High School for girls, at that time - until she was liberated from that insane asylum; long story), which was a highly unusual topic to discuss. There was fear in the Jewish community that the movie would lead to anti-Semitic acts, and the teacher evidently said some negative things about it. One of the girls asked if she had seen it herself, and she responded, "Of course not!" Kyra quickly said, ".My abba (daddy) saw it. In fact, on the 2nd day that it was out." The teacher and the class were dumbfounded. And the teacher then muttered something about the New Testament....to which Kyra said proudly, "My abba has read the New Testament!" The teacher stared at Kyra with her mouth wide open, stunned, and asked, "Your father has a New Testament??" Kyra responded, "Sure, he has a few. A couple in English, one in Hebrew, and even one in Hebrew AND Aramaic! Would you like me to bring it in to show you and the class?" The mortified teacher said, "No, no...don't do that; it's not necessary." Kyra it seemed was real 'in your face' kind of kid (no clue where she got THAT from!!!). That led her to other 'incidents' with the school's administration, but let's save that for another day :-) Warmest regards, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/816f3722/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Wed Dec 5 21:19:21 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:19:21 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29B480E4-02E2-45B3-839D-982B1577D115@alaska.com> Hanoch, I just signed for the classes at the Lubavitch Center. Do you consider that Modern Orthodox? Bonnie On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:10 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > Hey James! > > And I have you (and what you've written) to thank, for the > background I now have in both the New Testament in general, and > Yeshua in particular. That, and countless hours of discussions > with Ross, and with my pal, Dell. That, and actually reading the > New Testament, more then once. I have actually gotten considerable > flack from "friends" within the Jewish community who have thought > my interest in the early Christian period (from Nazarenes, to > Ebionites, to the early 'Jewish-Christians') is "wrong," "VERY > dangerous," and "Weird!" And those are all direct quotes! > > I've gotten into an argument (in my own home!) with a guest, > about Yaakov, Yeshua's brother ("James the Just") - I had just > finished Eisenman's huge book that week. He was stunned the way I > described him, as a 'Tzadik' (Righteous) man, but he would have > passed out if he had asked me about Yeshua (it's a LONG story, but > I think he is totally misunderstood in the Jewish community, let > alone the Christian one!) I have tons of questions about the NT, > and it's message for the Lost Tribes; I'm waiting for Ross (when he > retires...) to write something about that :-) > > My daughter Kyra also got into trouble in school over my > "unusual interest," as a matter of fact. It was right when the > "Passion of the Christ" has just come out, and somehow, it was > mentioned in her class (Kyra went to Yeshiva University's High > School for girls, at that time - until she was liberated from that > insane asylum; long story), which was a highly unusual topic to > discuss. There was fear in the Jewish community that the movie > would lead to anti-Semitic acts, and the teacher evidently said > some negative things about it. One of the girls asked if she had > seen it herself, and she responded, "Of course not!" > > Kyra quickly said, ".My abba (daddy) saw it. In fact, on the > 2nd day that it was out." The teacher and the class were > dumbfounded. And the teacher then muttered something about the New > Testament....to which Kyra said proudly, "My abba has read the New > Testament!" The teacher stared at Kyra with her mouth wide open, > stunned, and asked, "Your father has a New Testament??" Kyra > responded, "Sure, he has a few. A couple in English, one in > Hebrew, and even one in Hebrew AND Aramaic! Would you like me to > bring it in to show you and the class?" > > The mortified teacher said, "No, no...don't do that; it's not > necessary." > > Kyra it seemed was real 'in your face' kind of kid (no clue > where she got THAT from!!!). That led her to other 'incidents' > with the school's administration, but let's save that for another > day :-) > > Warmest regards, > Hanoch > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and > top money wasters of 2007. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/7aaeaab6/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Dec 5 21:26:30 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:26:30 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Toby Lights the first candle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <011a01c837b7$cb570600$653c66c9@bettygivin> Ross, It seems that our awareness of the significance of Kislev 24 is growing! Did you plan that first meeting two years ago or did it just "happen" to fall on that day? Regardless, all of things that you, with guidance of HaShem's Yad Tova, have managed to bring about in such a short time is truly an amazing story of inspiration. Yes, Temple Sinai was waiting for you and for people with searching hearts like yourself to fill it! Baruch HaShem! I loved the pictures of Toby lighting the first candle for Hanukkah. Thank-you for passing them along to us. You know, I have many pictures taken at on Hanukkah at Hatikvah with Joe and our little congregation in the years gone by. What happy memories they bring to mind! How blessed we all are! May we remember the missing Israeli soldiers, Zachary and Zvi this evening. Hanukkah Samaeach! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Nichols, Ross K. Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 6:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Toby Lights the first candle All, Last night, we met at the synagogue and had a nice evening. We talked about the significance of this season and yes we spoke of the passage in Haggai as James had pointed this out to me several years ago. This day (24th of the 9th month) has proven quite important to me as well. It was just two years ago when I held my first meeting in the synagogue on this very evening. A small group of friends and relatives came up to the building and I spoke of the blessings of this day. I don't think I could have envisioned what would happen over the next couple of years at that time. * We now have Sabbath services and are literally reaching people all over the planet! * The web site is now averaging well over 700 visits per day. * We are posting new podcasts every week. * I am surrounded by wonderful and talented people who are interested in studying and learning together. * We have released our first album. * We held our first Succoth here in Louisiana that was attended by people from several states. I am in awe and it certainly began as a small meeting on this day in a house originally built as a place of Hebrew worship. I have often thought that all of this is quite amazing. When you consider that I moved to a town over a decade ago where an abandoned synagogue was waiting for me! Shalom and BLESSINGS to you and yours! Love, Ross Ross K. Nichols Operations Excellence Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 Cellular - 225.588.1575 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/2746bd05/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Wed Dec 5 21:27:21 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:27:21 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: THE WOMEN WHO MADE CHANUKAH HAPPEN... 1st NIGHT References: <003001c836f3$3b9ce530$c701000a@RabbiGershon> Message-ID: I love the stories about the women > > THE WOMEN WHO MADE CHANUKAH HAPPEN... > from Rabbi Gershon Winkler > > In our last newsletter I eluded to two women whose actions spurred the > miraculous military uprising by the Maccabeans against the mighty > Greco-Assyrian empire, and its ultimate defeat. And now you want to > know who > they were and what exactly happened. Well, alright. This is all > from old, > lesser-known oral traditions recorded in Midrash Ma'aseh Chanukah, and > Midrash L'Chanukah, which in turn are recorded in Otsar HaMidrashim. > > During the cruel reign of Antiochus II over Israel, his frustration > over the > Jewish people's refusal to adopt his philosophy and religion led > him to > issue edicts prohibiting the practice of the Jewish religion, even > forcing > Jews to bow to edifices he set up in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and > sacrificing pig on the holy altar. One after the other we gave our > lives > rather than succumb, children, men, women, we surrendered our lives > rather > than our spirits. > > We also ceased all marriages since among these edicts was one > compelling a > bride about to be married to first sleep with the local Assyrian > governor of > the region. So no one got married. > > Until Channah, the daughter of the High Priest Matityahu, sister of > the > soon-to-be famous Maccabean warriors, rose to the occasion and > dared to go > on with her planned wedding. At the prenuptial feast, gathered > before the > elders, her father, her brothers, and hundreds of guests, she tore > off her > clothes. Her elder brother Judah shouted at her in admonishment, > cursing her > for the shame she brought by such hideous action, rushing over to > cover her > up. > > "This shames you?!" she yelled back, her powerful voice and poise > stopping > her brother dead in his tracks. "THIS shames you? THIS? And not > what is > going to happen tonight when they come to fetch me for the governor's > bedchamber?! That doesn't shame you?!" > > There was silence. They got it. > > To a man, every male present gathered around Judah who now was > infuriated > not by his sister baring herself in public but by the numbness that > had set > into the people, that would find it so shameful to see Channah > ripping her > clothes off in public but would at the same time remain numb and > refuse to > think about her forced night with the governor. To a man, every male > followed the enraged Judah, armed himself, and escorted Channah to the > ruler's residence where they dared him to come out to fetch his > sister, and > where the revolution was sparked on her account, in her honor, and > by her > instigation. > > The fight continued, the garrisons of Antiochus were destroyed, > beginning at > the home of the local ruler in Jerusalem, and the miraculous surge > of spirit > and courage rose to heights never dreamed of in that time. In the > end, the > Jewish commonwealth was retrieved, the Jewish spirit restored, the > Jewish > tradition rescued from the fate of so many other aboriginal > traditions that > had been and would in later times be erased from human history and > mystery. > > And so we celebrate with lights. Eight lights. Eight representing > miracle, > beyond seven, as seven represents the ordinary, the known, the > revealed > world that was created in cycles of seven. With the lighting of > each flame, > every day our menorahs glowing brighter and brighter, we fan the > sparks of > courage and kindle the flames of the gift of selfhood and dignity > modeled by > the bold action and words of a daughter of Israel some 2200 years > ago. By > the eighth night, we are fully ablaze with her daring soul burning > in each > our hearts, moving us beyond our self-perceived limitations, beyond > the > boundaries set for us by our culture, religion, society, way beyond > our > capacity...into the realm of the Sacred Eight, the place of > transcendence. > The place of, yes, Miracle. > > From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Dec 5 21:30:28 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:30:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch in Church In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95AA0860-1B92-4F0B-92E5-2AFEBCA35A93@earthlink.net> Brian is setting up that list and I plan to circulate them if it is okay with you. James On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:37 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > Dear James, > > Wow...I am so flattered, you have no idea! I would love to keep > sharing these things that indeed, have begun to pop into my mind. > If we do want to publish them though, I would need to change some of > the names for legal-type issues - particularly the undercover > cop!!! LOL > > I wish our pals on the UIWU list could have read the "saga" > pieces though, many of those folks have known me for years, and > would probably get a huge kick out of reading them. I'm sure they > have NO idea who they've been hanging around with all these > years! :-) > > Thanks again, and it's always great to hear from you! > > Have a Hanukkah Sameach!!! > Hanoch > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top > money wasters of 2007. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/2e0ae2ed/attachment.html From dennyj at mac.com Wed Dec 5 21:28:08 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:28:08 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I got a kick out of the great Hanukkah videos on You Tube today. Thanks for the link. Tonight I am ready a book called Light in the Darkness - Hanukkah and the Disciples of Yeshua by First Fruits of Zion. It was mostly written by our friend Daniel Lancaster. It confirms to me what G-d put on my heart yesterday about looking at this holiday as a reminder to resist and fight the greek mindset on our western culture. If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it. Let me quote just a section of it, if I may. "There is a battle going on today. As far as the Body of Messiah goes, the Hanukkah revolution has just begun. The return to Torah is not a fad. It is not an American or Israeli phenomenon. It is international. It can no longer be called "the Messianic Jewish movement" because it has outgrown that context. It is spreading everywhere, to every people, and it is unstoppable because it is biblical. It is a sweeping Hanukkah (rededication) of the Body of Messiah. And that is what we need. If those of us coming out of the church culture look honestly at ourselves and measure ourselves against God's law, we have to admit that we are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees. Our people have been thoroughly Hellenized. Whether we realize it or not, we are patrons of Greek thought, Greek philosophy, Greek theology, Greek values, Greek paganism. These are all characteristics deeply rooted among us in the church culture. our people have been thoroughly Hellenized since before the time of the Messiah. We are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees." "The Body of Messiah is likened unto a Temple. Individually and corporately, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Like the Holy Temple of Jerusalem in the days of the Maccabees, we have been defiled as well. Even in the days of Paul, the 'Mystery of Torah-lessness' was at work among the believers. Paul himself said so, and he referred to Anti-Christ as 'the Man of Torah-lessness.' If the 'Man of No-Torah' was at work among the believers even in the first century, how much more now!" "Consider the statutes Antiochus decreed for Israel. Look at his laws! You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah For many centuries, Christianity has been following these laws of Anthiochus - the laws of the abomination of desolation - instead of the Torah of God. Only in recent years have Torah-oriented communities of believers been allowed to exist. Two hundred and fifty years to three hundred years ago in Europe, a community of Torah-keeping believers would not have survived long because of pressure from the church. Nor would it have fared well in America two-hundred years ago. the Hanukkah revolution has only just begun." The meaning of Hanukkah is far more than candles, food, fun and games. It is a call to throw off the Hellenistic ways and return to Torah and the Ancient Paths. I want to be a Maccabee and I am glad that we have many Judah's leading the way. Hope your Hanukkah is as inspirational as ours. Shalom, Denny I On Dec 5, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: > Hanoch, > I am finally finding time to catch up. Next to your saga, this is > wonderful but I am still behind in reading, so I will still discover > more gems. I am passing this on to my other lists, Thanks for all > your contributions. > On Dec 4, 2007, at 6:57 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > >> This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a >> sense of humor! :-) >> Hanoch >> Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) >> >> >> >> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and >> top money wasters of 2007. >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/cfc3ca9e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Dec 5 21:36:25 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:36:25 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch in Church Message-ID: Hi James - Please go right ahead, I not only give "permission," but I do it with PLEASURE! Thanks again for your interest! B'Ahava, Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/c773f668/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Dec 5 21:33:54 2007 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:33:54 EST Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? Message-ID: Hi Bonnie (and my extended cybe-family), Okay, I'm going to do something now, that's considered a 'very Jewish trait.' I'm going to answer your question with a question. What does it matter what they're considered, or even what they consider themselves? My suggestion (it's 10:26PM, and I have to get up at 4:45AM, so this will have to be continued tomorrow) is to seek out authentic Jewish teachers (since that's the direction you expressed previously), and try to focus on attaining a good background in Jewish sources. What people call themselves, or how others perceive them really doesn't matter. That's why, I typically describe myself as either 'traditional,' or 'somewhat traditional' when forced to label myself. Even though I might wind up being as "Orthodox" as anyone else someone would meet. Anyway, let me know what you think, and I'll also try to write something about 'labels' tomorrow, kind of a follow up to the 'Gentile' conversation. Laila tov (good night), Hanoch **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/4dc36775/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Dec 5 21:38:18 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:38:18 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: THE WOMEN WHO MADE CHANUKAH HAPPEN... 1st NIGHT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <013701c837b9$716326e0$653c66c9@bettygivin> Bonnie, thanks so much for this story! I loved it! Hanukkah Sameach, Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Bonnie Nelson Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:27 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: THE WOMEN WHO MADE CHANUKAH HAPPEN... 1st NIGHT I love the stories about the women > > THE WOMEN WHO MADE CHANUKAH HAPPEN... > from Rabbi Gershon Winkler > > In our last newsletter I eluded to two women whose actions spurred the > miraculous military uprising by the Maccabeans against the mighty > Greco-Assyrian empire, and its ultimate defeat. And now you want to > know who > they were and what exactly happened. Well, alright. This is all > from old, > lesser-known oral traditions recorded in Midrash Ma'aseh Chanukah, and > Midrash L'Chanukah, which in turn are recorded in Otsar HaMidrashim. > > During the cruel reign of Antiochus II over Israel, his frustration > over the > Jewish people's refusal to adopt his philosophy and religion led > him to > issue edicts prohibiting the practice of the Jewish religion, even > forcing > Jews to bow to edifices he set up in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and > sacrificing pig on the holy altar. One after the other we gave our > lives > rather than succumb, children, men, women, we surrendered our lives > rather > than our spirits. > > We also ceased all marriages since among these edicts was one > compelling a > bride about to be married to first sleep with the local Assyrian > governor of > the region. So no one got married. > > Until Channah, the daughter of the High Priest Matityahu, sister of > the > soon-to-be famous Maccabean warriors, rose to the occasion and > dared to go > on with her planned wedding. At the prenuptial feast, gathered > before the > elders, her father, her brothers, and hundreds of guests, she tore > off her > clothes. Her elder brother Judah shouted at her in admonishment, > cursing her > for the shame she brought by such hideous action, rushing over to > cover her > up. > > "This shames you?!" she yelled back, her powerful voice and poise > stopping > her brother dead in his tracks. "THIS shames you? THIS? And not > what is > going to happen tonight when they come to fetch me for the governor's > bedchamber?! That doesn't shame you?!" > > There was silence. They got it. > > To a man, every male present gathered around Judah who now was > infuriated > not by his sister baring herself in public but by the numbness that > had set > into the people, that would find it so shameful to see Channah > ripping her > clothes off in public but would at the same time remain numb and > refuse to > think about her forced night with the governor. To a man, every male > followed the enraged Judah, armed himself, and escorted Channah to the > ruler's residence where they dared him to come out to fetch his > sister, and > where the revolution was sparked on her account, in her honor, and > by her > instigation. > > The fight continued, the garrisons of Antiochus were destroyed, > beginning at > the home of the local ruler in Jerusalem, and the miraculous surge > of spirit > and courage rose to heights never dreamed of in that time. In the > end, the > Jewish commonwealth was retrieved, the Jewish spirit restored, the > Jewish > tradition rescued from the fate of so many other aboriginal > traditions that > had been and would in later times be erased from human history and > mystery. > > And so we celebrate with lights. Eight lights. Eight representing > miracle, > beyond seven, as seven represents the ordinary, the known, the > revealed > world that was created in cycles of seven. With the lighting of > each flame, > every day our menorahs glowing brighter and brighter, we fan the > sparks of > courage and kindle the flames of the gift of selfhood and dignity > modeled by > the bold action and words of a daughter of Israel some 2200 years > ago. By > the eighth night, we are fully ablaze with her daring soul burning > in each > our hearts, moving us beyond our self-perceived limitations, beyond > the > boundaries set for us by our culture, religion, society, way beyond > our > capacity...into the realm of the Sacred Eight, the place of > transcendence. > The place of, yes, Miracle. > > _______________________________________________ From b.nelson at alaska.com Wed Dec 5 21:49:05 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:49:05 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81E9DF4D-0497-4475-94EB-507C1A617E84@alaska.com> Thank you, Hanoch. I love it. On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:33 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > Hi Bonnie (and my extended cybe-family), > > Okay, I'm going to do something now, that's considered a 'very > Jewish trait.' I'm going to answer your question with a question. > What does it matter what they're considered, or even what they > consider themselves? My suggestion (it's 10:26PM, and I have to get > up at 4:45AM, so this will have to be continued tomorrow) is to > seek out authentic Jewish teachers (since that's the direction you > expressed previously), and try to focus on attaining a good > background in Jewish sources. > > What people call themselves, or how others perceive them really > doesn't matter. That's why, I typically describe myself as either > 'traditional,' or 'somewhat traditional' when forced to label > myself. Even though I might wind up being as "Orthodox" as anyone > else someone would meet. Anyway, let me know what you think, and > I'll also try to write something about 'labels' tomorrow, kind of a > follow up to the 'Gentile' conversation. > > Laila tov (good night), > Hanoch > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and > top money wasters of 2007. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/d7bd10e6/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Dec 5 21:49:21 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:49:21 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <013e01c837ba$fcc0d600$653c66c9@bettygivin> Denny, thanks for this. Hanukkah is indeed so much more than candles, food and games. I especially liked the quote regarding the commandments of Antiochus which are in direct opposition to HaShem's commandments.talk about "in your face!" You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah Seen like this, they really get to the point! I just wonder how they would come across to someone who might still be heavy into the Greek/Hellenistic lifestyle and not be aware of it. Hanukkah Sameach! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Hi all, I got a kick out of the great Hanukkah videos on You Tube today. Thanks for the link. Tonight I am ready a book called Light in the Darkness - Hanukkah and the Disciples of Yeshua by First Fruits of Zion. It was mostly written by our friend Daniel Lancaster. It confirms to me what G-d put on my heart yesterday about looking at this holiday as a reminder to resist and fight the greek mindset on our western culture. If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it. Let me quote just a section of it, if I may. "There is a battle going on today. As far as the Body of Messiah goes, the Hanukkah revolution has just begun. The return to Torah is not a fad. It is not an American or Israeli phenomenon. It is international. It can no longer be called "the Messianic Jewish movement" because it has outgrown that context. It is spreading everywhere, to every people, and it is unstoppable because it is biblical. It is a sweeping Hanukkah (rededication) of the Body of Messiah. And that is what we need. If those of us coming out of the church culture look honestly at ourselves and measure ourselves against God's law, we have to admit that we are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees. Our people have been thoroughly Hellenized. Whether we realize it or not, we are patrons of Greek thought, Greek philosophy, Greek theology, Greek values, Greek paganism. These are all characteristics deeply rooted among us in the church culture. our people have been thoroughly Hellenized since before the time of the Messiah. We are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees." "The Body of Messiah is likened unto a Temple. Individually and corporately, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Like the Holy Temple of Jerusalem in the days of the Maccabees, we have been defiled as well. Even in the days of Paul, the 'Mystery of Torah-lessness' was at work among the believers. Paul himself said so, and he referred to Anti-Christ as 'the Man of Torah-lessness.' If the 'Man of No-Torah' was at work among the believers even in the first century, how much more now!" "Consider the statutes Antiochus decreed for Israel. Look at his laws! You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah For many centuries, Christianity has been following these laws of Anthiochus - the laws of the abomination of desolation - instead of the Torah of God. Only in recent years have Torah-oriented communities of believers been allowed to exist. Two hundred and fifty years to three hundred years ago in Europe, a community of Torah-keeping believers would not have survived long because of pressure from the church. Nor would it have fared well in America two-hundred years ago. the Hanukkah revolution has only just begun." The meaning of Hanukkah is far more than candles, food, fun and games. It is a call to throw off the Hellenistic ways and return to Torah and the Ancient Paths. I want to be a Maccabee and I am glad that we have many Judah's leading the way. Hope your Hanukkah is as inspirational as ours. Shalom, Denny I On Dec 5, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hanoch, I am finally finding time to catch up. Next to your saga, this is wonderful but I am still behind in reading, so I will still discover more gems. I am passing this on to my other lists, Thanks for all your contributions. On Dec 4, 2007, at 6:57 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a sense of humor! :-) Hanoch Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) _____ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/ffdf86a4/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Wed Dec 5 20:50:57 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 17:50:57 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? In-Reply-To: <1B611686-0D22-4DC3-8FB1-74241B1A0582@earthlink.net> References: <8CA05AF34569E2C-8E8-500E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> <8CA05AFE0A20E14-8E8-504E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> <1B611686-0D22-4DC3-8FB1-74241B1A0582@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <09DA1CB3-F273-4D7E-B320-B058103D5863@alaska.com> James, Hanoch or anyone, When I asked the Anchorage Rabbi Oblath, Rabbi for our Reform Synagogue, about how some Jews believe in a finite Jesus every generation. He told me that if that were the case he believed it was more likely that Hillel would have been that finite Messiah rather than Jesus. Right after that he taught a class about the history of Messianism or some similar title I can't remember exactly, and I missed it. What our your thoughts about the history of there being a finite Jesus every generation? Bonnie On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:21 PM, James Tabor wrote: > Hey, don't worry Hanoch...we don't expect you, our Jewish brother, > to be a Christian of any sorts. On the other hand you, unlike many > other Jews, have delved deeply in the "quest for the historical > Jesus" and have educated yourself in these areas rather than > running from his very name. > > James > > > On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:44 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: > >> A note to the group - >> >> Friends, I was not trying to insult ANYONE, or their attitude >> regarding who Jesus was, is, or might be. But I WAS asked a >> direct question about my personal beliefs,and my beliefs as a >> Jew. Please understand - and I fully respect anyone who has a >> different opinion within this group. Remember, I'm the guy with >> the different background :-) >> >> In the spirit of friendship and dialogue, >> Hanoch >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: youngbarzel at aol.com >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:39 pm >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? >> >> Dear Bonnie, >> >> Firstly, you can ask me ANY question, ANY time - no problem. >> I do have to run to a meeting now (this job WILL kill me..), and I >> want to answer you questions in detail. So I will have to follow >> up with you later, or tommorrow. I will do whatever I can, >> including suggesting reading materials, etc for whichever >> direction you feel is YOUR path. >> >> Although I HATE pigeon-hole definitions, I would be considered >> "Modern Orthodox," and I have no opinion vis a vis Jesus. In my >> view, not to insult anyone with a different view, HE WAS NOT G-D >> OR THE MESSIAH, AND NOT THE SON OF G-D. >> >> I will write more within the next day, sooner if I can. But >> you can ask me anything, truly... >> >> Very best regards, >> Hanoch >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bonnie Nelson >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 6:19 pm >> Subject: [Dialogue] conversion questions?? >> >> Hanoch, >> I have been trying to meet and talk to as many different Jewish >> friends both here and in the lower 48 to help me choose between >> Reform or Reconstructionist. At this time I am not wanting to >> study with Conservative or Orthodox. Which are you? The classes >> are free at our Reform Synagogue (http://www.frozenchosen.org/ >> aboutus/history/) but Rabbi Oblath says it may take up to 2 years >> before I could convert. Sure different than Christian >> denominations. There is no Reconstructionist congregation here. Do >> you believe Jesus was/is the Messiah, and that he was/is God or >> Son of God? You said I was free to ask you questions about your >> perspectives about Judaism. Hope these are OK? >> Here is a neat site about Alaska Jews >> http://www.jbuff.com/c081204.htm >> Bonnie >> _______________________________________________ >> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! >> _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/3e69292b/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Wed Dec 5 22:07:32 2007 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 23:07:32 EST Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers Message-ID: Yes, Doug is an incredibly funny guy. We all love Doug and his wife Goldie. I know its easy to forget to mention individual names in prayer. I know that often we have every intention of "praying for someone", but I would urge you to pray for Paul's healing. Call me crazy but I really do believe in the power of prayer. I sent Doug a private note and told him that we were all praying, but also told him that if I were going through what Paul is....I would be pleased to know that I had such Godly parents as Paul does. I guarantee you that they have probably not left the hospital. I wish I could be there with them and I know that others from our congregation would be there too if they could. Thanks for your prayers. Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/e0284c31/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Wed Dec 5 22:07:46 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:07:46 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: The Khazars by Yair Davidiy References: Message-ID: <299AB2A4-FA09-4797-8C75-CC7786064554@alaska.com> I got this from my Rebbe when I told him I didn't see how Sweeds and Norwegians could possibly be descended from the Lost Tribes. Who knows? Maybe?? > > > > > Brit-Am > Discussion Group > Contents by Subject Home > Research > Revelation > Reconciliation Site Map > Contents in Alphabetical Order > This Site > > > THE KHAZARS > by Yair Davidiy > > > The Khazars were a powerful people who once ruled over > portions of Russia and Eastern Europe. They, (or at least many of > their leaders), converted to Judaism and were eventually defeated > and disappeared. Their descendants were either assimilated amongst > the Jews or became Sabbath-keeping and other ?divergent? > Christians, many (if not most), of whom, migrated to the west and > to North America. Other descendants of the Khazars may be scattered > throughout the former area of the U.S.S.R. and in different parts > of Europe. A knowledge of the Khazars is useful for several > reasons. Evidence exists that the Khazars were descended from the > Lost Tribes of Israel. There is also proof that they were related > to peoples in Western Europe. It follows that evidence connecting > the ancestors of some West European groups to Israel is > strengthened when cognizance is taken of the Israelite ancestry of > their Khazar brothers. > > The Khazars and Anti-Semites > Another reason for studying the Khazars is that anti- > Semites, and some Assimilationist Jews, claim that the present-day > "Ashkenazi" (European) Jewish people came from the Khazars, who > they assume were non-Israelite. Anti-Semites use this notion of the > Khazars to allege that the Jews are impostors and not true > descendants of Israel. Some ?Identity? groups also make this > allegation. So do the Arabs and other anti-Semites. In the past > some Assimilationist Jews used the Khazar idea to claim that since > their ancestors were not in Judah at a certain time therefore they > were not culpable for whatever the Jews may or may not have done to > the Christian Messiah. The background for some of these ideas also > concerns the Karaites of Russia. > > The Khazars and Karaites > The Khazars ruled over many peoples some of whom were > also influenced by Hebraising tendencies. In Judaism at that time > there were two main streams. There were Rabbinical Jews who > parallel the Orthodox Jews of today and who believed in the Bible > and in its interpretation according to Oral Tradition. They were > homogeneous (still are), and consistent in their basic beliefs and > practices. They usually managed to reach a consensus regarding the > practical application of Biblical injunctions. Another group were > the Karaites who claimed to believe only in Scripture. The > Karaites, however, were actually eclectic and widely divergent > amongst themselves in their interpretation of Scripture. The > Karaite movement in the modern sense may have begun in the region > of present-day Iraq but its roots can be traced back to the > Samaritans and to the Sadducees and to other sects of former times. > Amongst the numerous groups subject to the Khazars were Tartars and > Turkish elements and some of these accepted the Karaite form of > religion. [IT SHOULD HOWEVER BE REMEMBERED THAT THE JEWISH KHAZARS > WERE THEMSELVES ADHERENTS OF THE RABBINICAL FORM.] The Karaites of > Russia freely intermarried with the Tartars and spoke a Tartar > dialect. Groups of Karaites were found in Lithuania, Southern > Russia, the Crimea, and at one stage even in Germany. Under the > Czars the Jews were persecuted and the Karaites naturally wished to > be exempt from anti-Jewish discrimination. They, therefore, claimed > to be descended from the Lost Ten Tribes and not Judaeans and as > such could not be held responsible for the crucifixion. > > Crimean Tombstones and the Lost Ten Tribes > In the Crimea of Southern Russia certain tombstones, > etc., were fabricated by a wealthy Karaite scholar named > Firkovitch. These tombstones bear the names of people stating that > they are descended from Tribes of Israel exiled by Assyria. For a > short period several leading authorities were misled by this > evidence and there were those who perhaps wanted to be misled in > order to help the Karaites out of their predicament. By agreeing > that the Karaites were descended from the Lost Ten Tribes, or from > the Khazars, they were helping the Karaites claim that they were > not related to the Jews and therefore should not be persecuted as > Jews. [Some sections of The Lost Ten Tribes however really had once > been in the Crimea and in other areas of southern and eastern > Russia. Not all the evidence produced by Firkovitch was necessarily > false. The case is still under consideration.] Other Karaite > figures, both under the Russians and under Hitler, strove to prove > that they were not racially of Jewish, or Israelite, origin. Some > of them were actively anti-Semitic. TO BE CONSIDERED AN ISRAELITE > OF WHATEVER TYPE CAN BE DANGEROUS!! In some accounts of the Khazars > it is assumed that the Karaites descend from them. This assumption > is mistaken and misleading. > > Biblical Attitude toward Converts in General > Regarding conversion or simply the genuine acceptance of > membership in the Israelite community, Scripture has already > spoken, ?Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye > were strangers in the land of Egypt? (Exodus 22:20). > ?One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also > for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in > your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the > LORD (Numbers 15:15). > ?And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by > lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn > amongst you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall > be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; > they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel > (Ezekiel 47:22). > > Khazar History > A linguistic study, (Baschmakoff, Paris 1937), based on > place-names indicated that the Khazars could be connected to > Adiabene and its area in the region of Northern Mesopotamia, i.e. > to an area to which part of the Lost Ten Tribes had been exiled in > 730-720 BCE. Arab chroniclers record the Khazars as having been > east of the Caspian Sea in the time of Alexander the Great > (Dunlop). They also were said to have invaded Armenia in ca.197-217 > CE and to have been subjected by the Armenians (Moses of Chorene). > The Khazars assisted the Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate in 363 > CE and managed to conquer Armenia with their ships dominating the > Caspian Sea. The Caspian Sea was formerly known as ?The Khazar > Sea?. The Khazars were also known as ?Gazari? and as ?Akatzyri? and > ?Agathyrsoi?. In the past under the name Agathyrsoi they had been > variously reported of in Thrace (south-east Europe), in the Pontus > (north-east Turkey), in Poland, and towards the far north-eastern > edge of the Baltic Sea shore. Servius on Virgil and Scottish > sources said that the Picts of Scotland were descended from a > portion of the Agathyrsoi who crossed the sea and conquered North > Scotland. One branch of the Khazars were known as Sabirs. A group > of ?Sabarium? together with ?Carnutum? had served in Gaul as Roman > mercenaries. These have been ascribed both Anglo-Saxon and Central > Asian origins (Altheim, GDH vol.1, p.209 ff, vol.4 p.108 ff). They > used the runic ?Ing? letter as their emblem. This sign is usually > associated with the Angles and is of Scandinavian origin. > In the period 350-450 CE, the Huns from the area of > Mongolia advanced westward conquering other peoples and forcing > them to join their forces or flee before them. The Huns swept into > Europe. The Anglo-Saxon and related invasions of Britain in the > 450s are connected with the Huns aggression. Attila the Hun in ca. > 434 CE made the Akartziri (Khazars) his tributaries and appointed > his first-born son, Ellac, as king over them. The Akatziri, > (Khazars), fought as Hun auxiliaries alongside the Black Huns and > Alans in Gaul. Upon Attila?s death they returned to the Caucasus area. > Central Asian and Scythian history can be confusing > since there were many different groups, each of which often had > several names. The names of one group were sometimes interchanged > with that of another due to conquest or assimilation or one group > taking over the former territory or status of the other. > Another portion of the Khazars were the White Ugrians > whom the Chinese described as tall, white-skinned, and green-eyed > (McGovern p.472). The White Ugrians had been in that part of > Scythia once ascribed to the ?Hugie? who were in effect the Franks > who later settled in France. The White Ugrians ruled over a mixed > Turkish and Mongolian group known as the ?Black? Ugrians. Another > people once confederated with the Khazars were the White Huns who > were also known as ?Nephtali? and descended from the Naphtali Tribe > of Israel. With the break-up of the Hun Empire remnants of the Huns > in the east were absorbed by the ?Turkish(?)? Juan-juan who became > known as the Avars. The name ?Avar? or ?Abar? had originally been > one of the names of the Naphtalite Huns but somehow it became > applicable to the Juan-juan who ruled over them. > As stated, a people in East Scythia known as the Juan-juan had once > dominated the Khazars, White Ugrians, and Nephtalite Huns who > revolted. In the course of this revolt most of the Nephtalites > moved westward eventually reaching Scandinavia and settling in > Norway. In the meanwhile the Khazars and White Ugrians defeated > the Juan-juan (?Avars?) killing most of them. The remaining Avars > were accepted as leaders by the Black Ugrians who previously had > been ?White Ugrian? vassals. The Black Ugrians henceforth took the > name ?Avar? upon themselves and migrated to Central Europe, where > during the period 550-769 CE, they dominated Hungary, parts of > Austria, and parts of Germany. Their kingdom was destroyed by the > Frankish Emperor Charlemagne. > Prior to 582 CE the Bulgars in eastern Scythia had been > subject to a branch of the Khazars. They moved to the Volga-Ural > region and also to the area of modern Bulgaria. In both places the > Khazars were suzerain over them at some stage or other. > > The Khazars Convert To Judaism > The Russian-Jewish scholar, Abraham Harcavy (Vilna, > 1867), believed that the Khazars had converted to Judaism in about > 620 CE. Other authorities put this event more than a hundred years > later. The conversion at first was more or less a secret and was > confined to the king and his co-ruling associate prince and to the > inner aristocracy. Later most of the Khazars-proper appear to have > converted along with some of the Alans and some of the other > subject peoples, most of whom however remained pagan, Christian, or > moslem. The conversion was also done in stages (Polak). At first > they accepted a kind of monotheism with Hebraic-type ceremonies. > Later they accepted full-fledged Rabbinical Orthodoxy. The first > Khazar king to accept Judaism was named Bulan whose name means > ?unicorn? or ?elk? (Altheim, GDH vol.1 p.239). The unicorn was an > emblem known from the Sakae region east of the Caspian Sea. The > conversion of the Khazars to Judaism was preceded by a Disputation > amongst members of different religions. The Jewish poet and > philosopher Yehuda HaLevi (1074-1141, Spain) wrote a Classical work > in defence of Judaism using this Disputation as a framework. The > book is called ?The Kuzari?. > > The Khazars conquer Hungary, Poland, and Austria > In 862 the Khazars conquered Kiev on the Dneiper River. > They may even have been the original founders of Kiev. The Khazars > also ruled over the Magyar people who at that time appeared in > southern Russia. In about 869 a group of Khazars called "Chabars" > rebelled against the main body and led their Magyar subjects > westward to Hungary where they settled. The Khazars pursued them > and subdued them in their new land. The Magyars of Hungary > dominated Hungary up to 955 CE (Koestler p.171). Austrian tradition > related that Austria was once ruled by a line of Jewish kings > followed by a line of pagan ones, then came Christianity. The time > given for these kings, (707 bce -227 ce), actually coincides > roughly with the period of Celtic dominance in the area and is > discussed in the book ?Origin? by Yair Davidiy (2002). The names > however of these mythical Jewish kings bear Altaic (i.e. from the > eastern Scythian steppe region),- type names, and the first of them > is described by the Chronicle as a local convert to Judaism. It has > therefore been suggested (by Koestler) that Khazar control over the > Magyars was responsible for this legend or at least for certain > details of it. We would suggest that the bare structure of the > legend has an historical basis and is connected with the Celts > while some of the subsidiary details (such as the names, etc) were > influenced by direct, or indirect, Khazar influence in the area. A > Polish legend says that the Khazars conquered Poland and were led > by an ?Abraham Pey?. Another legend says that Poland was once ruled > by a Jewish king called Abraham Pierkovnik (Polak p.187, Koestler p. > 147). The two figures, named Abraham ?Pey? or ?Pierkovnok? are > apparently one and the same. A portion of the Agathyrsi (Khazars) > were once in Poland and the said legends may be connected with them. > > The Khazars and The Vikings > Around the 700s Viking ?Varangians? began to penetrate > the interior of Russia. The Varangians were mainly Swedish, though > the term (in Russian Chronicles) could also be used to encompass > anybody from Scandinavia, as well as Englishmen (E.B. 1955, > ?Russia?, Vernadsky). Varangians were confederated with the Khazars > and may have been the Khazar entity referred to as the Varach?an > (Warathan) Huns. The Varangians were variously referred to as > ?Varegos?, ?Barragos?, and ?Variag? (Polak p.187, Koestler p.147, > Minorsky p.432). Their name may be derived from the Hebrew > ?Beriah? [pronounceable as ?Veri-a-g?], which name was given to a > son of Asher (Genesis 46;17), a son of Ephraim (1-Chronicles 7;23), > and a son of Benjamin(1-Chronicles 8;16). > In ca.800 CE a group of Varangians appeared at the > Byzantium court. They called their king ?Chakan?, which title is > considered to have been that of the King of Khazaria (Vernadsky, > ?The Origins of Russia?, p.244ff). The title ?Chakan?, or ?Cagan?, > was originally the Hebrew ?COHEN? and means ?priest? or > ?officiate?. [In the Ukraine today the western "h" is still > pronounced like a "g"]. More information concerning the Khazars > comes from a letter sent some time between 954-961 to Ibn Hasdai > who was the Jewish physician and foreign minister to the muslim > king of Cordoba in Spain. The letter is from a King Joseph of > Khazaria. There are two versions of this letter but both contain > important information from early sources. From the letter(s) we > learn that: King Joseph was the 13th king of Khazaria; Previously, > in the time of the 11th monarch, King Benjamin, all the surrounding > kings had been at war against the Khazars except for the King of > the Cossacks and the King of the Alans. > By ?King of the Cossacks?, the Don Cossacks are intended. > The Don Cossacks were a mixed people amongst whom in historical > times were a few isolated families who practiced Judaic customs and > some of whom converted to Judaism. These individuals had the notion > that they were descended from Dan, son of Israel, after whom the > Don River was named. The Don Cossacks are to be disntinguished from > Cossacks in general. The Alans were a people who had lived to the > north of the Caspian Sea then moved to the Caucasus area and north > of it. Previously in the time of Attilla, and before then (i.e. in > the 400s CE), a section of the Alans had gone westward. They > settled in areas of Gaul, especially in Brittany, and may have > inluenced Norman military tactics (Bachrach). There were also > groups of Alans amongst the Allemans in Alsace and in Suebia. In > addition, the name ?Alan? is found in Scotland both as a personal > name and as the name of a Tribe in the north. In ?The Tribes? the > Alans are traced to Elon son of Zebulon. > The letter continues to relate that the Alan monarch > marched against the enemies of the Khazars and routed them. The > King of the Alans had rendered assistance since ?some of them > observed the Torah of the Jews?. King Joseph of Khazaria himself > was married to a daughter of the Alan ruler. Bar Hebraeus had > reported that the Khazars came from the east and settled in ?the > country of the Alans now called Barsalia? meaning an area on the > northern shores of the Black Sea. > The Khazars proper were a small group who obtained a loose > uncertain control over many other nations. The Khazar power was > probably always in frequent fluctuation. The Varangians established > themselves in and around Kiev where they ruled over the natives. > The local inhabitants said that Kiev had been founded by Ku and two > of his brothers. These were foreigners (kinsmen of the Khazars), > and ruled over the Polanians. The Polonian natives of Kiev told the > Varangians that originally ?there were three brothers...they built > this town and perished. We are sitting [here] and pay tribute to > their kinsmen the Khazars.....? This is interesting since > originally Kiev had been known as Sambat as reported by the > Emerperor of Byzantium, Constantine Porphyrogenitus, who lived at > the time and had contact with the Khazars. The term "Sambat" means > "Sabbath" and in Rabbinical Tradition via the form "Sambation" is > linked to the Lost Ten Tribes. The people of Asgard (from whom > descended many of the Scandinavians) had lived in this area. The > Varangians at first acknowledged Khazar suzerainty and as mentioned > it seems that the Khazar ?Huns of Warathan? were Varangian. The > Varangians were either also known as the Rus or the Rus were > another group whom the Varangians absorbed and who became > identified with them. In ca. 912-913 the Varangian Rus with Khazar > connivance attacked muslim and Christian settlements on the shores > of the Black sea. When the Varangians were returning from their > raids they were attacked by a band of 150,000 non-Khazar muslim and > Christian subjects of the Khazar king. The attackers were acting > against the will of the Khazar ruler who tried to stop them and > sent a message to warn the Varangians against them. The Varangians > lost 30,000 men in this encounter which meant the loss of 2/3 of > their forces. This incident is symptomatic of the Khazars weakening > position. Their kingdom had begun to disintegrate and they were > overly dependent on Christian and muslim mercenaries. Their > subjects were asserting themselves. The Khazars were perhaps too > liberally-disposed for that age and region. In the meantime amongst > the Varangians of Kiev Christianity had been spreading. The > Varangians were intermarrying with the Slavs and Slavonic elements > were entering Varangian ranks as equals. Abraham Polak was a > foremost scholar of Khazar history. He wrote an authoritative work > (in Hebrew) about them and considered them essentially an offshoot > of the Goths. According to Polak the Scandinavian element amongst > the Varangians was basically pro-Khazar, whereas the Slavonic one > was not. The more Christian and Slavonicised the Varangians became > the more distance they kept from Khazar alliance. Saksin (Atil) one > of the Khazar capitals was attacked by the Varangian-Rus in 962-963 > and again by the Turks in 965. After these attacks the steppes > became dominated by Turks and Mongolians. Khazaria was never the > same after the Rus and Turkish attacks but some degree of partial > recovery may have been achieved. Rubruques in the 1200s mentioned a > ?Civitas Saxorum? (i.e. City of the Saxons), and is presumed to be > referring to the Khazar capital of Saksin. A German record says > that in 1410 the Prince of Lithuania attacked lands by the Caspian > Sea, ?In the place where, as it is known, live the Red Jews?. The > expression ?Red Jews? is a term employed by medieval Jews and > applied to the Lost Tribes of Israel with whom the Khazars appear > to have been identified. > > The Physical Appearance of the Khazars > Three different types of Khazar are described by Arab > writers who, through trade and diplomacy, had had direct contact > with them. The Arab Geographer Istakhri (Koestler p.20) said: ?The > Khazars do not resemble the Turks. They are black-haired and of two > kinds, one called the Kara [i.e. ?Black?] - Khazars who are swarthy > verging on deep black as if they were a kind of Hindu, and a white > kind [Ak-Khazars], who are strikingly handsome?. Note the above > description says that both kinds of Khazars had black hair though > regarding countenance, etc. one was white and the other very dark. > Al Maghribi said: ?As to the Khazars, they are to the north of the > inhabited earth towards the 7th clime, having over their heads the > constellation of the plough. Their land is cold and wet, their eyes > blue, their hair flowing and predominantly reddish, their bodies > large and their natures cold. Their general aspect is wild?. Al- > Maghribi is here apparently speaking of another section of the > Khazars who lived more to the north. These had ?predominantly > reddish? hair and blue eyes. It was remarked above that the Khazar > White Ugrians were described by the Chinese as red-haired, pale- > skinned,and green-eyed. The Alans who were closely associated with > the Khazars were described by the Roman historian Ammianus > Marcelinus as being blonde-haired like all the Scythians according > to him. Ammianus includes the Agathysoi (Khazars) amongst the > Alans. From the above it follows that different Khazar and Khazar- > linked groups were of different types. > > The Khazars and Israel > One version (the more correct one) of the letter of King > Joseph quoted above said that the Khazars had a tradition that they > were descended from the Tribe of Simeon. Eldad HaDani, (ca.850 CE), > wrote that they came from Simeon and Menasseh. Other Jewish sources > (e.g. Chronicle of Yerachmeel) mention the Tribes of Ephraim and > Judah or of Nephtali and Dan though usually it is Simeon and > Menasseh. The Cochin Scroll also says that the Khazars were > descended from Simeon and Menasseh. At the peak of their history > the Khazars controlled the area of the Don and Danaper Rivers and > these rivers were referred to in Khazar times as ?Sambation? and as > ?River of Sabt (i.e. ?Shabat?), and in Jewish legend both terms are > connected with the Lost Ten Tribes. Archaeological evidence has > found Greek inscriptions bearing the name Sambation from the Don > River region and dating from the pre-Christian era (Yair Davidiy, > "Origin"). The Khazars had emerged from areas to which the Lost Ten > Tribes were exiled or had moved to after their exile. The Khazars > were related to other groups for whom independent proofs show an > Israelite origin and so what is pertinent to them is pertinent also > to the Khazars and vice-versa. The Khazars were linked especially > with the Tribes of Simeon and Menasseh. They were identical with > the Agathyrsi-proper who derived from the Clan of "Jeezer" son of > Gilead son of Menasseh (Numbers 26:30). The name transliterated as > "Jeezerites" ("Ha-Iy-ez-ri" in Hebrew), was probably pronounceable > in Ancient Israel as "Ay-(g)a-zar", and the Agathyrsi were also > known as "Acatzari", Khazari, and Gazari. Those of the Agathyrsi > (Acatzari), who remained in Scythia, eventually formed the nucleus > of the Khazar nation and a tradition exists, (related by Eldad > HaDani in ca.800 CE and by the Cochin Scroll), that the Khazars > came from the Tribes of Simeon and Menasseh. The Picts of Scotland > also came from the Agathyrsi. Amongst the pre-Christian Picts and > Scottish existed a taboo on pig meat and on other unclean animals > prohibited by the Mosaic code (MacKenzie, see our article: "The > Food Taboos of Old Scotland"). Later in Christian times the > tradition existed that "Jews", or a "Type of Jew", had settled in > Scotland. Similarly the Khazars, before their conversion, had had > some kind of notion that they were of Israelite descent and had had > some exposure to Mosaic lore. The "Jeezer" (i.e. "Ay-g-azar" of > Gilead) origin of the Picts is consistent with the neighboring > Caledonians, (with whom the Picts united), being also descended > from Gilead and the very name Caledonian is derived from Gilead. > Elements (such as those of Gilead) connected with Menasseh > dominated Scotland and the west of Britain. From these areas later > came an overwhelming proportion of the early British settlers of > North America in its beginnings. > > Havila > Another name for the Khazars was ?Kwalisse?, or rather in > Old Russian the terms, ?Khazar?, ?White Ugrian?, ?Kwalisse? were > synonymous, though these names actually refer to separate parts of > the Khazar confederacy. ?Kwalisse? is derived from Persian and > means ?Man of Kwala?. ?Kwala? is another name for the land of > Chorasmia which was east of the Caspian. ?Kwala?, or Choresmia, in > Hebrew writings (such as those of Eldad HaDani) is referred to as > ?Havila?. In the History of Holland by Jean Francoise Le Petit > (1601), ?Havila? was possessed by the three brothers Saxo, Frisso, > and Bruno who represented the Saxon, Frissian, and Anglian peoples. > {These same three brothers in other Frisian legends came from the > Land of Israel and are to be identified with former inhabitants of > the Northern Kingdom, see "The Tribes" by Yair Davidiy}. ?Havila?, > says Le Petit, was in the ?East Indies? near the Eumodian Mountains > of which the three brothers were made guardians. According to > Ptolemy the ?Eumodian Mountains? were the Altai Mountain Range or > near it. It follows from the above that ?Havila? in effect equalled > ?Kwala? or Chorasmia. Within the region of Chorasmia-Havila Ptolemy > recalled the presence of various Scythian peoples who, in ?The > Tribes?, are traced to Israelite entities. Examples include the > Aspassi (Menasseh of Joseph), the Massaei (Menasseh), Machetegi > (Maacha in Menasseh), Suobeni (Jospeh), Samnites (Simeon), Zaratae > (Zarathites of Simeon), Namastae (Namuel of Simeon), and so on. It > will be noticed that the mentioned groups are predominantly from > Menasseh, or from Joseph, (father of Menasseh), or from Simeon and > the Khazars are recorded as belonging to the Tribes of Simeon and > Menasseh. Most of the peoples listed by Ptolemy had migrated > westward at the time of the Hun invasions of Europe or before then. > Nevertheless, remnants evidently stayed behind and these became > part of the peoples comprising the Khazar nations. From this region > emerged the Parthians, many of whom converted to Judaism and who > may be linked with the Khazars. In their own time the Arsacid > rulers of Parthia were accredited Israelite origins. An Arab source > (Yakut) (Ben-Zvi p.247), says: ?Isaac son of Abraham was the > father of Khazar, and Bazar, and Bursul, and Horesm [i.e. Chorasmia- > Havila] and Peel?, - all of which peoples appear to have been > members of the Khazar confederation. > The Khazars and Scandinavia > The Persians considered the Khazars a Scythian people. > Herodotus (4;2) said that the Agathyrsoi (Khazars) were brothers to > the Royal Scythians and Gelones. The Royal Scythians (Scuthae > Basiloi) gave their name to Scandinavia which was known as > ?Basilia? and ?Scatanavia? (Pliny N.H. 37;11). A portion of the > Khazars were known as ?Basilians? and their land, (by the Danaper > River Mouth west of the Crimea in a former Royal Scyth region), as > ?Bartsula?. "Basil" in Ancinet Mesopotamia was a term applied to > the Bashan east of the Jordan River and northwards all of which > that was once part of the territory of the Israelite Tribes of > Menasseh, Reuben, and Gad (cf. Deuteronomy 4:43). > New archaeological findings have revealed the former presence of a > colony of Khazars that existed in Birka in Central Sweden. These > Khazars may have been linked with the early Angles and Saxons since > the Baltic port of Hedeby was also linked with Birka in Sweden. > Hedeby had been a center of the Angles before they moved to > Britain. Hedeby was the place were Sheaf Saxnot the mythical > ancestor of the Anglo-Saxons first arrived at. Sheaf had come from > an unknown land in a boat without oars. He taught his people > agriculture and the arts of civilization. Geofrrey of Monmouth > noted the presence of Picts in Scandinavia and he may have been > referring to the Khazars who were also known as Agathyrsi and > ancestors to part of the Picts. A Swedish scholar has claimed > Khazar intermarriages with the Swedish aristocracy in Sweden. > KHAZARS AND FINNS > The Khazars were considered ("Jewish Encyclopedia") to > have spoken a Finnish language as did many Steppe peoples of > different origins. There used to exist an opinion that most of the > Finns did not enter Finland (from Scythia) until the 700s and 800s > CE, though nowadays this notion appears to have been dismissed. > There may be a connection between the Khazars and the Finnish > people. The Finns of Finland in the 17th and 18th centuries > believed themselves to be descended from the Lost Ten Tribes of > Israel. The Finnish national hero and one-time leader, Marshall > Mannerheim, believed that the Finns were descended from the Tribe > of Issachar. The Finns call themselves Suomi (?Shuomi?) which is > said to mean ?people of the marshes? or something like that. > Nevertheless the name is not dissimilar to that of Simeon > (?Shimeon?) in Hebrew, and the Khazars were traditionally descended > from Menasseh and Simeon. Existing names are frequently re- > interpreted and adapted to fit changing circumstances. The Finns > appear to be descended from the Iyrcae (or ?Turcae?) former > neighbours of the Nephtalite Huns. In our work, ?The Tribes? the > Finns are traced to the Tribes of Gad, Issachar, and Simeon. > > The Israelite Origins of the Khazars > We have seen that the ?Sambation? was in Khazar > territory. The Arabs linked the Khazars with Isaac; names of groups > in the Khazar area bore Israelite Tribal and clan names; Jewish and > Khazar traditions link them with Israel. The Khazars had familial > links with peoples who moved to Western Europe and whom other > proofs show to have been of Israelite descent. Also indicative of > Hebrew ancestry is the fact that they converted to Judaism despite > the hostility expressed to this religion by other peoples in the > region. > > We believe that the Khazars were mainly the > descendants of Jews and of Israelites from the Lost Ten Tribes. We > have evidence for this belief. There were also numerous Rabbanical > Jews who fled to the Land of the Khazars and settled there. The > Land of the Khazars relatively speaking was close to and connected > by trade and culture to the former region of Babylonia which had > remained a center of Jewish population ever since the time of > Nebuchadnezzar. With the Muslim conquest of Mesopotamia, > persecutions of the Jews in Byzantium, and general change of > circumstances much of Babylonian Jewry moved into the Khazar region. > > Many have claimed that many European Jews are descended from > Khazars - this may be, but it has not been proven. If it were so it > would strengthen our position rather than weaken it. HOWEVER there > is NO evidence. NOT that there is evidence that can be dismissed > BUT that there is none APART, (perhaps) from the names of a few > villages in Poland, and the fanciful imaginations of a few > dilettantes. The Khazars emerged into history at a time when > Turkish culture was dominant in their area and at one stage were > ruled over by Turkish groups. Jews had many contacts with the > Khazars and with the Turks and many Jews had dwelt in both the > Khazar Kingdom and in the Turkish Empire. If we were to find traces > of the Khazars or Turkish-influences in Jewish culture etc it would > not necessarily prove anything since such things can be absorbed by > historical contact. > BUT EVEN THIS WE DO NOT FIND! > There are no names, no real family traditions, no > customs, no words, not anything at all that can provide us with > even a flimsy connection between the European Jews and the Khazars > whom they are supposed to be descended from. A few nineteenth- > century Assimilated Hungarian Jews claimed to be descended from > Khazars (considered then to be a Magyar Hungarian-type people > because that would make them next-of-kin to their Gentile Hungarian > neighbors but they had no proof or not even any real evidence. > So-called "Identity" People who dedicate energy and time to > "proving" (in their minds) that the Jews are Khazars etc are > actually enemies of Identity truth. They are knowing or unknowing > agents of anti-semitic interests that are also against the "Anglo- > Saxon" existence. > Much Additional EVIDENCE strengthens the case that the > Khazars were of Israelite descent in so far as the proofs in > question show that the Khazars really did consider themselves on > the whole to be of Israelite origin and so were regarded by most > Jewish authorities who were familiar with them. The evidence in > question consists of Hebraic sources and historical evidence that > will (God willing) be discussed in a book we are preparing and hope > to publish shortly. > God bless you, O Seekers of the Truth, Yair Davidiy > > Sources: > Altheim, Franz. ?Geschichte Der Hunnen?, Berlin 1962. > Articles in Encyclopedia Brittanica, Encyclopedia Judaica, > Universal Jewish > Encyclopedia, The Jewish Encyclopedia, > Bachrach, B.S. ?A History of the Alans in the West?, U.S.A., 1973 > Baschmakoff, A. ?Cinquante Siecles D?Evolution Ethnique Autour de > la Mer Noir?, Paris 1937 > Ben-Zvi, Isaac. ?The Exiled and the Redeemed?, London, 1958. > Boba, Imre ?Nomads, Northmen and Slavs. Eastern Europe in the Ninth > Century?, > 1967, The Hague. > Davidiy, Yair ?The Tribes?, ?Ephraim?, ?Identity?,. > Dunlop, D.M. ?The History of the Jewish Khazars?, New Jersey, > U.S.A., 1951. > Golden, Peter B. ?Khazar Studies?, Budapest, 1980 > Henning, W.B. ?A Farewell to the Khazars of the Aq-Aqataran?, > BSOAS, 1952, pp.501ff > McGovern, W. MacKenzie, Donald A.. ?Scottish Folk-Lore and Folk- > Life. Studies in > Race, Culture, and Tradition?, U.K., 1935. > Minorsky, V. ?Hudud al-Alam?. ?The Regions of the World?, A > Persian Geography > 372 A.H. -982 A.d. Translated and Explained by V. Minorsky, edited > by CE Bosworth, > London, 1970. > Montgomery, ?The Early Empires of Central Asia?, New York, 1939. > Kasdoi, Zvi. ?The Tribes of Jacob and the Preserved of > Israel? (Hebrew), Haifa, > 1928. Kasdoi, Zvi. ?HaMityahadim?. > Koestler, Arthur. ?The Thirteenth Tribe. The Khazar Empire and Its > Heritage?, New York, 1967. > Polak, Abraham. ?Kazaria? (Hebrew), Tel-Aviv, Israel, 1951. > Vernadsky, George. ?The Origins of Russia?, 1959, Oxford, U.K. > Vernadsky, George. ?Ancient Russia?, Yale, U.S.A., 1943. > > > > See Also the following Brit-Am articles: > > Edward (Ephraim) Hirsch > "The Khazars are coming" > > Brit-Am Answers to Queries: Khazars > > Steven M. Collins: > THE KHAZARS AND THE MODERN JEWS > > > Home > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/69ea8827/attachment.html From dennyj at mac.com Wed Dec 5 22:06:22 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:06:22 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <013e01c837ba$fcc0d600$653c66c9@bettygivin> References: <013e01c837ba$fcc0d600$653c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <9CA47C27-D29D-407D-B8A9-171C271E1C28@mac.com> Betty, I can only imagine how I might have reacted a couple of years ago. Probably would have been totally blind to my condition. Why is it that we have had this change of heart? It seems so improbable that we would even be considering this path. It's like we are going backwards compared to the church. That is the way many of our friends and some family members look at us. They just laugh and don't understand. But, come what may, we are on this path for good. There is no turning back now. We are just glad we are not alone. Thank you for your words of encouragement. Hanukkah Sameach to you and yours. Denny On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:49 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Denny, thanks for this. Hanukkah is indeed so much more than > candles, food and games. > > I especially liked the quote regarding the commandments of > Antiochus which are in direct opposition to HaShem?s commandments? > talk about ?in your face!? > > You shall profane the Sabbath > You shall profane the festivals and holy days > You shall set up idols > You shall eat unclean animals > You shall not circumcise your sons > You shall forget the Torah > > Seen like this, they really get to the point! I just wonder how > they would come across to someone who might still be heavy into the > Greek/Hellenistic lifestyle and not be aware of it. > > Hanukkah Sameach! > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:28 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) > > Hi all, > > I got a kick out of the great Hanukkah videos on You Tube today. > Thanks for the link. > Tonight I am ready a book called Light in the Darkness - Hanukkah > and the Disciples of Yeshua by First Fruits of Zion. It was mostly > written by our friend Daniel Lancaster. It confirms to me what G-d > put on my heart yesterday about looking at this holiday as a > reminder to resist and fight the greek mindset on our western > culture. If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it. Let > me quote just a section of it, if I may. > > "There is a battle going on today. As far as the Body of Messiah > goes, the Hanukkah revolution has just begun. The return to Torah is > not a fad. It is not an American or Israeli phenomenon. It is > international. It can no longer be called "the Messianic Jewish > movement" because it has outgrown that context. It is spreading > everywhere, to every people, and it is unstoppable because it is > biblical. It is a sweeping Hanukkah (rededication) of the Body of > Messiah. And that is what we need. If those of us coming out of the > church culture look honestly at ourselves and measure ourselves > against God's law, we have to admit that we are like Israel in the > days of the Maccabees. Our people have been thoroughly Hellenized. > Whether we realize it or not, we are patrons of Greek thought, Greek > philosophy, Greek theology, Greek values, Greek paganism. These are > all characteristics deeply rooted among us in the church culture. > our people have been thoroughly Hellenized since before the time of > the Messiah. We are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees." > > "The Body of Messiah is likened unto a Temple. Individually and > corporately, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Like the Holy > Temple of Jerusalem in the days of the Maccabees, we have been > defiled as well. Even in the days of Paul, the 'Mystery of Torah- > lessness' was at work among the believers. Paul himself said so, and > he referred to Anti-Christ as 'the Man of Torah-lessness.' If the > 'Man of No-Torah' was at work among the believers even in the first > century, how much more now!" > > "Consider the statutes Antiochus decreed for Israel. Look at his laws! > > You shall profane the Sabbath > You shall profane the festivals and holy days > You shall set up idols > You shall eat unclean animals > You shall not circumcise your sons > You shall forget the Torah > > For many centuries, Christianity has been following these laws of > Anthiochus - the laws of the abomination of desolation - instead of > the Torah of God. Only in recent years have Torah-oriented > communities of believers been allowed to exist. Two hundred and > fifty years to three hundred years ago in Europe, a community of > Torah-keeping believers would not have survived long because of > pressure from the church. Nor would it have fared well in America > two-hundred years ago. the Hanukkah revolution has only just begun." > > > > The meaning of Hanukkah is far more than candles, food, fun and > games. It is a call to throw off the Hellenistic ways and return to > Torah and the Ancient Paths. > I want to be a Maccabee and I am glad that we have many Judah's > leading the way. > > Hope your Hanukkah is as inspirational as ours. > > Shalom, > Denny > > > I > > > On Dec 5, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: > > > Hanoch, > I am finally finding time to catch up. Next to your saga, this is > wonderful but I am still behind in reading, so I will still discover > more gems. I am passing this on to my other lists, Thanks for all > your contributions. > On Dec 4, 2007, at 6:57 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > > > This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a > sense of humor! :-) > Hanoch > Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top > money wasters of 2007. > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/9b55baaf/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Wed Dec 5 22:22:24 2007 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 23:22:24 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Date Converter Calender Message-ID: You can also go to my web site. I have the current moon, date, and the annual torah reading schedule etc. Go here _http://rootsoffaith.org/welcome.htm_ (http://rootsoffaith.org/welcome.htm) , and scroll until you get to the moon. Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/232ec029/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 5 22:28:05 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 04:28:05 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <9CA47C27-D29D-407D-B8A9-171C271E1C28@mac.com> References: <013e01c837ba$fcc0d600$653c66c9@bettygivin><9CA47C27-D29D-407D-B8A9-171C271E1C28@mac.com> Message-ID: <247433198-1196915365-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1629070394-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I don't think it is backwards Denny. We all have found a fork in the road. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Denny Johnson Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:06:22 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Betty, I can only imagine how I might have reacted a couple of years ago. Probably would have been totally blind to my condition. Why is it that we have had this change of heart? It seems so improbable that we would even be considering this path. It's like we are going backwards compared to the church. That is the way many of our friends and some family members look at us. They just laugh and don't understand. But, come what may, we are on this path for good. There is no turning back now. We are just glad we are not alone. Thank you for your words of encouragement. Hanukkah Sameach to you and yours. Denny On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:49 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Denny, thanks for this.? Hanukkah is indeed so much more than candles, food and games. ? ?I especially liked the quote regarding the commandments of Antiochus which are in direct opposition to HaShem?s commandments?talk about ?in your face!? ? You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah ? Seen like this, they really get to the point! ?I just wonder how they would come across to someone who might still be heavy into the Greek/Hellenistic lifestyle and not be aware of it. ? Hanukkah Sameach! ? Betty/Elisheva ? ? ? ? ? ? ---------------- From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ?[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ]?On Behalf Of?Denny Johnson Sent:?Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:28 PM To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) ? Hi all, ? I got a kick out of the great Hanukkah videos on You Tube today. Thanks for the link. Tonight I am ready a book called Light in the Darkness - Hanukkah and the Disciples of Yeshua by First Fruits of Zion. It was mostly written by our friend Daniel Lancaster. It confirms to me what G-d put on my heart yesterday about looking at this holiday as a reminder to resist and fight the greek mindset on our western culture. If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it. ?Let me quote just a section of it, if I may. ? "There is a battle going on today. As far as the Body of Messiah goes, the Hanukkah revolution has just begun. The return to Torah is not a fad. It is not an American or Israeli phenomenon. It is international. It can no longer be called "the Messianic Jewish movement" because it has outgrown that context. It is spreading everywhere, to every people, and it is unstoppable because it is biblical. It is a sweeping Hanukkah (rededication) of the Body of Messiah. And that is what we need. If those of us coming out of the church culture look honestly at ourselves and measure ourselves against God's law, we have to admit that we are like?Israel?in the days of the Maccabees. Our people have been thoroughly Hellenized. Whether we realize it or not, we are patrons of Greek thought, Greek philosophy, Greek theology, Greek values, Greek paganism. These are all characteristics deeply rooted among us in the church culture. our people have been thoroughly Hellenized since before the time of the Messiah. We are like?Israel?in the days of the Maccabees."? ? "The Body of Messiah is likened unto a?Temple. Individually and corporately, we are the?Temple?of the Holy Spirit. Like the?Holy?Temple?of?Jerusalem?in the days of the Maccabees, we have been defiled as well. Even in the days of Paul, the 'Mystery of Torah-lessness' was at work among the believers. Paul himself said so, and he referred to Anti-Christ as 'the Man of Torah-lessness.' If the 'Man of No-Torah' was at work among the believers even in the first century, how much more now!" ? "Consider the statutes Antiochus decreed for?Israel. Look at his laws! ? ????????????You shall profane the Sabbath ????????????You shall profane the festivals and holy days ????????????You shall set up idols ????????????You shall eat unclean animals ????????????You shall not circumcise your sons ????????????You shall forget the Torah ? For many centuries, Christianity has been following these laws of Anthiochus - the laws of the abomination of desolation - instead of the Torah of God. Only in recent years have Torah-oriented communities of believers been allowed to exist. Two hundred and fifty years to three hundred years ago in?Europe, a community of Torah-keeping believers would not have survived long because of pressure from the church. Nor would it have fared well in?America?two-hundred years ago. the Hanukkah revolution has only just begun." ? ? ? The meaning of Hanukkah is far more than candles, food, fun and games. It is a call to throw off the Hellenistic ways and return to Torah and the Ancient Paths. I want to be a Maccabee and I am glad that we have many?Judah's leading the way. ? Hope your Hanukkah is as inspirational as ours. ? Shalom, Denny ? ? I ? ? On Dec 5, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hanoch, I am finally finding time to catch up. Next to your saga, this is wonderful but I am still behind in reading, so I will still discover more gems. I am passing this on to my other lists, Thanks for?all?your contributions. ? On Dec 4, 2007, at 6:57 PM,?YoungBarzel at aol.com ?wrote: This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a sense of humor!?? :-) ??? ??? Hanoch Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) ---------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the?hottest products ?and?top money wasters ?of 2007. _______________________________________________ ? _______________________________________________ ?_______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From RNDAVAR at aol.com Wed Dec 5 22:52:01 2007 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 23:52:01 EST Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU Site Message-ID: Bonnie, If you are interested in some good tribes research, go to _www.unitedisrael.org_ (http://www.unitedisrael.org) . Happy reading. Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071205/c5d09cfd/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 5 23:23:35 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 05:23:35 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Message-ID: <120620070523.4171.4757875000080E9B0000104B22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Well, maybe it's a day late but tonite our album Hac V'Shema was posted to a web-radio station that broadcasts from Israel to 105 countries. The site is http://www.inspiredfaith.org/. This is a most amazing thing to me. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from patricia robbins : -------------- I've not had any Kislev 24 experiences. If anyone has, I'd love to hear them. This being the 4oth year since the Six Day War (as you mentioned to Hanoch), we could be in for quite a ride "from this day forward!" After the 40 years of wandering in the desert - due to the fact that they were afraid of the giants in the land - it was TIME to go in and possess it. From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:47:11 -0500 Dear Patricia, Thanks so much. I know what I sent was a bit dense and a lot to study, but it can be taken in pieces. It represents many years of study for me but I tried to offer a summary. These things have come in bits and pieces, since 1990, not all at once. I think I recall that you had some personal Kislev 24 experiences. Maybe you remember what you shared once and will feel like sharing again. Chag Sameach, James On Dec 4, 2007, at 10:04 PM, patricia robbins wrote: James, this is such a gift! Thank you so much! I've been studying it since it came in, and there is so much here! It has made me think of so many things. I'm taking notes to check all the ideas it has spurred. Alexander is such a key figure in all this. Hellenism is his baby. In the long count, he introduced the trampling of Jerusalem. In the short count, there will probably be a connection to him again. Did you reckon the September 3rd birth of Yeshua because of a hunch that he would have been conceived on Kislev 24? It does make sense. Do you feel that John 10:22 is referring to Hanukkah? I feel certain that you are right when you say that Kislev 24 is THE date. It's what is important. Hanukkah is a RESULT of the redemption of Kislev 24! This is fabulous!!!!! General Allenby freed Jerusalem Kislev 24, 1917. The Tribes' redemption was begun on Kislev 24, 1927. The regathering and re-uniting with Judah must surely follow suit. I wonder if there is a Kislev 24 count from 1927 that we should be recognizing that pertains to regathering and re-uniting? Isn't the pattern: first Judah, then the Tribes? Like first Jerusalem was liberated (1917), then the Tribes redemption was conceived (1927)? I know that you don't have time to answer all these questions. I just appreciate so much that you made me think of all these questions - and many more! You are very much appreciated, dear Teacher. Please don't forget to tell us about the Sanhedrin tombs. Thank you for this meaningful Kislev 24th. Happy Hanukkah to you. Oh, and thank you also for noting that Zechariah had 8 night visions! You really "lit up" this first night for us! I think you're our own personal Shamash!!!!! Pat From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today--just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight days, read through and study it... The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that the Temple be rebuilt and that the constitution of the new state of Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read car efully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the ground. And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence. Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAKE the heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only briefly alludes. This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November. He has EIGHT night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world dominion! Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, likely in some sequential order, both the preliminary events, and the detailed climax, of the "time of the end." So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir Isaac Newton so much. During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption. Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it begins: "I have returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential meaning of THIS DAY. I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months before his birth in September 3 BCE. But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The Torah read ing was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it turned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especially Ezekiel, that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph is yet to come , "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai refers remains to be seen. It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the "countdo wn" begins. I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for any of us, and a time of new beginnings. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/d27d0ef7/attachment.html From kim.alvarado at charter.net Thu Dec 6 00:32:29 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 1:32:29 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Prayers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071206013229.6ZW2H.362471.root@fepweb01> The "power of prayer" definitely not crazy. Even at my lowest point in my relationship with G-d, I still believed in the power of prayer. BTW How old is Paul? Kim ---- RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: ============= Yes, Doug is an incredibly funny guy. We all love Doug and his wife Goldie. I know its easy to forget to mention individual names in prayer. I know that often we have every intention of "praying for someone", but I would urge you to pray for Paul's healing. Call me crazy but I really do believe in the power of prayer. I sent Doug a private note and told him that we were all praying, but also told him that if I were going through what Paul is....I would be pleased to know that I had such Godly parents as Paul does. I guarantee you that they have probably not left the hospital. I wish I could be there with them and I know that others from our congregation would be there too if they could. Thanks for your prayers. Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) From kim.alvarado at charter.net Thu Dec 6 00:50:32 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:50:32 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: The Khazars by Yair Davidiy In-Reply-To: <299AB2A4-FA09-4797-8C75-CC7786064554@alaska.com> Message-ID: <20071206015032.RP9YN.362683.root@fepweb01> One of my favorite sites. ---- Bonnie Nelson wrote: ============= I got this from my Rebbe when I told him I didn't see how Sweeds and Norwegians could possibly be descended from the Lost Tribes. Who knows? Maybe?? > > > > > Brit-Am > Discussion Group > Contents by Subject Home > Research > Revelation > Reconciliation Site Map > Contents in Alphabetical Order > This Site > > > THE KHAZARS > by Yair Davidiy > > > The Khazars were a powerful people who once ruled over > portions of Russia and Eastern Europe. They, (or at least many of > their leaders), converted to Judaism and were eventually defeated > and disappeared. Their descendants were either assimilated amongst > the Jews or became Sabbath-keeping and other ?divergent? > Christians, many (if not most), of whom, migrated to the west and > to North America. Other descendants of the Khazars may be scattered > throughout the former area of the U.S.S.R. and in different parts > of Europe. A knowledge of the Khazars is useful for several > reasons. Evidence exists that the Khazars were descended from the > Lost Tribes of Israel. There is also proof that they were related > to peoples in Western Europe. It follows that evidence connecting > the ancestors of some West European groups to Israel is > strengthened when cognizance is taken of the Israelite ancestry of > their Khazar brothers. > > The Khazars and Anti-Semites > Another reason for studying the Khazars is that anti- > Semites, and some Assimilationist Jews, claim that the present-day > "Ashkenazi" (European) Jewish people came from the Khazars, who > they assume were non-Israelite. Anti-Semites use this notion of the > Khazars to allege that the Jews are impostors and not true > descendants of Israel. Some ?Identity? groups also make this > allegation. So do the Arabs and other anti-Semites. In the past > some Assimilationist Jews used the Khazar idea to claim that since > their ancestors were not in Judah at a certain time therefore they > were not culpable for whatever the Jews may or may not have done to > the Christian Messiah. The background for some of these ideas also > concerns the Karaites of Russia. > > The Khazars and Karaites > The Khazars ruled over many peoples some of whom were > also influenced by Hebraising tendencies. In Judaism at that time > there were two main streams. There were Rabbinical Jews who > parallel the Orthodox Jews of today and who believed in the Bible > and in its interpretation according to Oral Tradition. They were > homogeneous (still are), and consistent in their basic beliefs and > practices. They usually managed to reach a consensus regarding the > practical application of Biblical injunctions. Another group were > the Karaites who claimed to believe only in Scripture. The > Karaites, however, were actually eclectic and widely divergent > amongst themselves in their interpretation of Scripture. The > Karaite movement in the modern sense may have begun in the region > of present-day Iraq but its roots can be traced back to the > Samaritans and to the Sadducees and to other sects of former times. > Amongst the numerous groups subject to the Khazars were Tartars and > Turkish elements and some of these accepted the Karaite form of > religion. [IT SHOULD HOWEVER BE REMEMBERED THAT THE JEWISH KHAZARS > WERE THEMSELVES ADHERENTS OF THE RABBINICAL FORM.] The Karaites of > Russia freely intermarried with the Tartars and spoke a Tartar > dialect. Groups of Karaites were found in Lithuania, Southern > Russia, the Crimea, and at one stage even in Germany. Under the > Czars the Jews were persecuted and the Karaites naturally wished to > be exempt from anti-Jewish discrimination. They, therefore, claimed > to be descended from the Lost Ten Tribes and not Judaeans and as > such could not be held responsible for the crucifixion. > > Crimean Tombstones and the Lost Ten Tribes > In the Crimea of Southern Russia certain tombstones, > etc., were fabricated by a wealthy Karaite scholar named > Firkovitch. These tombstones bear the names of people stating that > they are descended from Tribes of Israel exiled by Assyria. For a > short period several leading authorities were misled by this > evidence and there were those who perhaps wanted to be misled in > order to help the Karaites out of their predicament. By agreeing > that the Karaites were descended from the Lost Ten Tribes, or from > the Khazars, they were helping the Karaites claim that they were > not related to the Jews and therefore should not be persecuted as > Jews. [Some sections of The Lost Ten Tribes however really had once > been in the Crimea and in other areas of southern and eastern > Russia. Not all the evidence produced by Firkovitch was necessarily > false. The case is still under consideration.] Other Karaite > figures, both under the Russians and under Hitler, strove to prove > that they were not racially of Jewish, or Israelite, origin. Some > of them were actively anti-Semitic. TO BE CONSIDERED AN ISRAELITE > OF WHATEVER TYPE CAN BE DANGEROUS!! In some accounts of the Khazars > it is assumed that the Karaites descend from them. This assumption > is mistaken and misleading. > > Biblical Attitude toward Converts in General > Regarding conversion or simply the genuine acceptance of > membership in the Israelite community, Scripture has already > spoken, ?Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye > were strangers in the land of Egypt? (Exodus 22:20). > ?One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also > for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in > your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the > LORD (Numbers 15:15). > ?And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by > lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn > amongst you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall > be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; > they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel > (Ezekiel 47:22). > > Khazar History > A linguistic study, (Baschmakoff, Paris 1937), based on > place-names indicated that the Khazars could be connected to > Adiabene and its area in the region of Northern Mesopotamia, i.e. > to an area to which part of the Lost Ten Tribes had been exiled in > 730-720 BCE. Arab chroniclers record the Khazars as having been > east of the Caspian Sea in the time of Alexander the Great > (Dunlop). They also were said to have invaded Armenia in ca.197-217 > CE and to have been subjected by the Armenians (Moses of Chorene). > The Khazars assisted the Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate in 363 > CE and managed to conquer Armenia with their ships dominating the > Caspian Sea. The Caspian Sea was formerly known as ?The Khazar > Sea?. The Khazars were also known as ?Gazari? and as ?Akatzyri? and > ?Agathyrsoi?. In the past under the name Agathyrsoi they had been > variously reported of in Thrace (south-east Europe), in the Pontus > (north-east Turkey), in Poland, and towards the far north-eastern > edge of the Baltic Sea shore. Servius on Virgil and Scottish > sources said that the Picts of Scotland were descended from a > portion of the Agathyrsoi who crossed the sea and conquered North > Scotland. One branch of the Khazars were known as Sabirs. A group > of ?Sabarium? together with ?Carnutum? had served in Gaul as Roman > mercenaries. These have been ascribed both Anglo-Saxon and Central > Asian origins (Altheim, GDH vol.1, p.209 ff, vol.4 p.108 ff). They > used the runic ?Ing? letter as their emblem. This sign is usually > associated with the Angles and is of Scandinavian origin. > In the period 350-450 CE, the Huns from the area of > Mongolia advanced westward conquering other peoples and forcing > them to join their forces or flee before them. The Huns swept into > Europe. The Anglo-Saxon and related invasions of Britain in the > 450s are connected with the Huns aggression. Attila the Hun in ca. > 434 CE made the Akartziri (Khazars) his tributaries and appointed > his first-born son, Ellac, as king over them. The Akatziri, > (Khazars), fought as Hun auxiliaries alongside the Black Huns and > Alans in Gaul. Upon Attila?s death they returned to the Caucasus area. > Central Asian and Scythian history can be confusing > since there were many different groups, each of which often had > several names. The names of one group were sometimes interchanged > with that of another due to conquest or assimilation or one group > taking over the former territory or status of the other. > Another portion of the Khazars were the White Ugrians > whom the Chinese described as tall, white-skinned, and green-eyed > (McGovern p.472). The White Ugrians had been in that part of > Scythia once ascribed to the ?Hugie? who were in effect the Franks > who later settled in France. The White Ugrians ruled over a mixed > Turkish and Mongolian group known as the ?Black? Ugrians. Another > people once confederated with the Khazars were the White Huns who > were also known as ?Nephtali? and descended from the Naphtali Tribe > of Israel. With the break-up of the Hun Empire remnants of the Huns > in the east were absorbed by the ?Turkish(?)? Juan-juan who became > known as the Avars. The name ?Avar? or ?Abar? had originally been > one of the names of the Naphtalite Huns but somehow it became > applicable to the Juan-juan who ruled over them. > As stated, a people in East Scythia known as the Juan-juan had once > dominated the Khazars, White Ugrians, and Nephtalite Huns who > revolted. In the course of this revolt most of the Nephtalites > moved westward eventually reaching Scandinavia and settling in > Norway. In the meanwhile the Khazars and White Ugrians defeated > the Juan-juan (?Avars?) killing most of them. The remaining Avars > were accepted as leaders by the Black Ugrians who previously had > been ?White Ugrian? vassals. The Black Ugrians henceforth took the > name ?Avar? upon themselves and migrated to Central Europe, where > during the period 550-769 CE, they dominated Hungary, parts of > Austria, and parts of Germany. Their kingdom was destroyed by the > Frankish Emperor Charlemagne. > Prior to 582 CE the Bulgars in eastern Scythia had been > subject to a branch of the Khazars. They moved to the Volga-Ural > region and also to the area of modern Bulgaria. In both places the > Khazars were suzerain over them at some stage or other. > > The Khazars Convert To Judaism > The Russian-Jewish scholar, Abraham Harcavy (Vilna, > 1867), believed that the Khazars had converted to Judaism in about > 620 CE. Other authorities put this event more than a hundred years > later. The conversion at first was more or less a secret and was > confined to the king and his co-ruling associate prince and to the > inner aristocracy. Later most of the Khazars-proper appear to have > converted along with some of the Alans and some of the other > subject peoples, most of whom however remained pagan, Christian, or > moslem. The conversion was also done in stages (Polak). At first > they accepted a kind of monotheism with Hebraic-type ceremonies. > Later they accepted full-fledged Rabbinical Orthodoxy. The first > Khazar king to accept Judaism was named Bulan whose name means > ?unicorn? or ?elk? (Altheim, GDH vol.1 p.239). The unicorn was an > emblem known from the Sakae region east of the Caspian Sea. The > conversion of the Khazars to Judaism was preceded by a Disputation > amongst members of different religions. The Jewish poet and > philosopher Yehuda HaLevi (1074-1141, Spain) wrote a Classical work > in defence of Judaism using this Disputation as a framework. The > book is called ?The Kuzari?. > > The Khazars conquer Hungary, Poland, and Austria > In 862 the Khazars conquered Kiev on the Dneiper River. > They may even have been the original founders of Kiev. The Khazars > also ruled over the Magyar people who at that time appeared in > southern Russia. In about 869 a group of Khazars called "Chabars" > rebelled against the main body and led their Magyar subjects > westward to Hungary where they settled. The Khazars pursued them > and subdued them in their new land. The Magyars of Hungary > dominated Hungary up to 955 CE (Koestler p.171). Austrian tradition > related that Austria was once ruled by a line of Jewish kings > followed by a line of pagan ones, then came Christianity. The time > given for these kings, (707 bce -227 ce), actually coincides > roughly with the period of Celtic dominance in the area and is > discussed in the book ?Origin? by Yair Davidiy (2002). The names > however of these mythical Jewish kings bear Altaic (i.e. from the > eastern Scythian steppe region),- type names, and the first of them > is described by the Chronicle as a local convert to Judaism. It has > therefore been suggested (by Koestler) that Khazar control over the > Magyars was responsible for this legend or at least for certain > details of it. We would suggest that the bare structure of the > legend has an historical basis and is connected with the Celts > while some of the subsidiary details (such as the names, etc) were > influenced by direct, or indirect, Khazar influence in the area. A > Polish legend says that the Khazars conquered Poland and were led > by an ?Abraham Pey?. Another legend says that Poland was once ruled > by a Jewish king called Abraham Pierkovnik (Polak p.187, Koestler p. > 147). The two figures, named Abraham ?Pey? or ?Pierkovnok? are > apparently one and the same. A portion of the Agathyrsi (Khazars) > were once in Poland and the said legends may be connected with them. > > The Khazars and The Vikings > Around the 700s Viking ?Varangians? began to penetrate > the interior of Russia. The Varangians were mainly Swedish, though > the term (in Russian Chronicles) could also be used to encompass > anybody from Scandinavia, as well as Englishmen (E.B. 1955, > ?Russia?, Vernadsky). Varangians were confederated with the Khazars > and may have been the Khazar entity referred to as the Varach?an > (Warathan) Huns. The Varangians were variously referred to as > ?Varegos?, ?Barragos?, and ?Variag? (Polak p.187, Koestler p.147, > Minorsky p.432). Their name may be derived from the Hebrew > ?Beriah? [pronounceable as ?Veri-a-g?], which name was given to a > son of Asher (Genesis 46;17), a son of Ephraim (1-Chronicles 7;23), > and a son of Benjamin(1-Chronicles 8;16). > In ca.800 CE a group of Varangians appeared at the > Byzantium court. They called their king ?Chakan?, which title is > considered to have been that of the King of Khazaria (Vernadsky, > ?The Origins of Russia?, p.244ff). The title ?Chakan?, or ?Cagan?, > was originally the Hebrew ?COHEN? and means ?priest? or > ?officiate?. [In the Ukraine today the western "h" is still > pronounced like a "g"]. More information concerning the Khazars > comes from a letter sent some time between 954-961 to Ibn Hasdai > who was the Jewish physician and foreign minister to the muslim > king of Cordoba in Spain. The letter is from a King Joseph of > Khazaria. There are two versions of this letter but both contain > important information from early sources. From the letter(s) we > learn that: King Joseph was the 13th king of Khazaria; Previously, > in the time of the 11th monarch, King Benjamin, all the surrounding > kings had been at war against the Khazars except for the King of > the Cossacks and the King of the Alans. > By ?King of the Cossacks?, the Don Cossacks are intended. > The Don Cossacks were a mixed people amongst whom in historical > times were a few isolated families who practiced Judaic customs and > some of whom converted to Judaism. These individuals had the notion > that they were descended from Dan, son of Israel, after whom the > Don River was named. The Don Cossacks are to be disntinguished from > Cossacks in general. The Alans were a people who had lived to the > north of the Caspian Sea then moved to the Caucasus area and north > of it. Previously in the time of Attilla, and before then (i.e. in > the 400s CE), a section of the Alans had gone westward. They > settled in areas of Gaul, especially in Brittany, and may have > inluenced Norman military tactics (Bachrach). There were also > groups of Alans amongst the Allemans in Alsace and in Suebia. In > addition, the name ?Alan? is found in Scotland both as a personal > name and as the name of a Tribe in the north. In ?The Tribes? the > Alans are traced to Elon son of Zebulon. > The letter continues to relate that the Alan monarch > marched against the enemies of the Khazars and routed them. The > King of the Alans had rendered assistance since ?some of them > observed the Torah of the Jews?. King Joseph of Khazaria himself > was married to a daughter of the Alan ruler. Bar Hebraeus had > reported that the Khazars came from the east and settled in ?the > country of the Alans now called Barsalia? meaning an area on the > northern shores of the Black Sea. > The Khazars proper were a small group who obtained a loose > uncertain control over many other nations. The Khazar power was > probably always in frequent fluctuation. The Varangians established > themselves in and around Kiev where they ruled over the natives. > The local inhabitants said that Kiev had been founded by Ku and two > of his brothers. These were foreigners (kinsmen of the Khazars), > and ruled over the Polanians. The Polonian natives of Kiev told the > Varangians that originally ?there were three brothers...they built > this town and perished. We are sitting [here] and pay tribute to > their kinsmen the Khazars.....? This is interesting since > originally Kiev had been known as Sambat as reported by the > Emerperor of Byzantium, Constantine Porphyrogenitus, who lived at > the time and had contact with the Khazars. The term "Sambat" means > "Sabbath" and in Rabbinical Tradition via the form "Sambation" is > linked to the Lost Ten Tribes. The people of Asgard (from whom > descended many of the Scandinavians) had lived in this area. The > Varangians at first acknowledged Khazar suzerainty and as mentioned > it seems that the Khazar ?Huns of Warathan? were Varangian. The > Varangians were either also known as the Rus or the Rus were > another group whom the Varangians absorbed and who became > identified with them. In ca. 912-913 the Varangian Rus with Khazar > connivance attacked muslim and Christian settlements on the shores > of the Black sea. When the Varangians were returning from their > raids they were attacked by a band of 150,000 non-Khazar muslim and > Christian subjects of the Khazar king. The attackers were acting > against the will of the Khazar ruler who tried to stop them and > sent a message to warn the Varangians against them. The Varangians > lost 30,000 men in this encounter which meant the loss of 2/3 of > their forces. This incident is symptomatic of the Khazars weakening > position. Their kingdom had begun to disintegrate and they were > overly dependent on Christian and muslim mercenaries. Their > subjects were asserting themselves. The Khazars were perhaps too > liberally-disposed for that age and region. In the meantime amongst > the Varangians of Kiev Christianity had been spreading. The > Varangians were intermarrying with the Slavs and Slavonic elements > were entering Varangian ranks as equals. Abraham Polak was a > foremost scholar of Khazar history. He wrote an authoritative work > (in Hebrew) about them and considered them essentially an offshoot > of the Goths. According to Polak the Scandinavian element amongst > the Varangians was basically pro-Khazar, whereas the Slavonic one > was not. The more Christian and Slavonicised the Varangians became > the more distance they kept from Khazar alliance. Saksin (Atil) one > of the Khazar capitals was attacked by the Varangian-Rus in 962-963 > and again by the Turks in 965. After these attacks the steppes > became dominated by Turks and Mongolians. Khazaria was never the > same after the Rus and Turkish attacks but some degree of partial > recovery may have been achieved. Rubruques in the 1200s mentioned a > ?Civitas Saxorum? (i.e. City of the Saxons), and is presumed to be > referring to the Khazar capital of Saksin. A German record says > that in 1410 the Prince of Lithuania attacked lands by the Caspian > Sea, ?In the place where, as it is known, live the Red Jews?. The > expression ?Red Jews? is a term employed by medieval Jews and > applied to the Lost Tribes of Israel with whom the Khazars appear > to have been identified. > > The Physical Appearance of the Khazars > Three different types of Khazar are described by Arab > writers who, through trade and diplomacy, had had direct contact > with them. The Arab Geographer Istakhri (Koestler p.20) said: ?The > Khazars do not resemble the Turks. They are black-haired and of two > kinds, one called the Kara [i.e. ?Black?] - Khazars who are swarthy > verging on deep black as if they were a kind of Hindu, and a white > kind [Ak-Khazars], who are strikingly handsome?. Note the above > description says that both kinds of Khazars had black hair though > regarding countenance, etc. one was white and the other very dark. > Al Maghribi said: ?As to the Khazars, they are to the north of the > inhabited earth towards the 7th clime, having over their heads the > constellation of the plough. Their land is cold and wet, their eyes > blue, their hair flowing and predominantly reddish, their bodies > large and their natures cold. Their general aspect is wild?. Al- > Maghribi is here apparently speaking of another section of the > Khazars who lived more to the north. These had ?predominantly > reddish? hair and blue eyes. It was remarked above that the Khazar > White Ugrians were described by the Chinese as red-haired, pale- > skinned,and green-eyed. The Alans who were closely associated with > the Khazars were described by the Roman historian Ammianus > Marcelinus as being blonde-haired like all the Scythians according > to him. Ammianus includes the Agathysoi (Khazars) amongst the > Alans. From the above it follows that different Khazar and Khazar- > linked groups were of different types. > > The Khazars and Israel > One version (the more correct one) of the letter of King > Joseph quoted above said that the Khazars had a tradition that they > were descended from the Tribe of Simeon. Eldad HaDani, (ca.850 CE), > wrote that they came from Simeon and Menasseh. Other Jewish sources > (e.g. Chronicle of Yerachmeel) mention the Tribes of Ephraim and > Judah or of Nephtali and Dan though usually it is Simeon and > Menasseh. The Cochin Scroll also says that the Khazars were > descended from Simeon and Menasseh. At the peak of their history > the Khazars controlled the area of the Don and Danaper Rivers and > these rivers were referred to in Khazar times as ?Sambation? and as > ?River of Sabt (i.e. ?Shabat?), and in Jewish legend both terms are > connected with the Lost Ten Tribes. Archaeological evidence has > found Greek inscriptions bearing the name Sambation from the Don > River region and dating from the pre-Christian era (Yair Davidiy, > "Origin"). The Khazars had emerged from areas to which the Lost Ten > Tribes were exiled or had moved to after their exile. The Khazars > were related to other groups for whom independent proofs show an > Israelite origin and so what is pertinent to them is pertinent also > to the Khazars and vice-versa. The Khazars were linked especially > with the Tribes of Simeon and Menasseh. They were identical with > the Agathyrsi-proper who derived from the Clan of "Jeezer" son of > Gilead son of Menasseh (Numbers 26:30). The name transliterated as > "Jeezerites" ("Ha-Iy-ez-ri" in Hebrew), was probably pronounceable > in Ancient Israel as "Ay-(g)a-zar", and the Agathyrsi were also > known as "Acatzari", Khazari, and Gazari. Those of the Agathyrsi > (Acatzari), who remained in Scythia, eventually formed the nucleus > of the Khazar nation and a tradition exists, (related by Eldad > HaDani in ca.800 CE and by the Cochin Scroll), that the Khazars > came from the Tribes of Simeon and Menasseh. The Picts of Scotland > also came from the Agathyrsi. Amongst the pre-Christian Picts and > Scottish existed a taboo on pig meat and on other unclean animals > prohibited by the Mosaic code (MacKenzie, see our article: "The > Food Taboos of Old Scotland"). Later in Christian times the > tradition existed that "Jews", or a "Type of Jew", had settled in > Scotland. Similarly the Khazars, before their conversion, had had > some kind of notion that they were of Israelite descent and had had > some exposure to Mosaic lore. The "Jeezer" (i.e. "Ay-g-azar" of > Gilead) origin of the Picts is consistent with the neighboring > Caledonians, (with whom the Picts united), being also descended > from Gilead and the very name Caledonian is derived from Gilead. > Elements (such as those of Gilead) connected with Menasseh > dominated Scotland and the west of Britain. From these areas later > came an overwhelming proportion of the early British settlers of > North America in its beginnings. > > Havila > Another name for the Khazars was ?Kwalisse?, or rather in > Old Russian the terms, ?Khazar?, ?White Ugrian?, ?Kwalisse? were > synonymous, though these names actually refer to separate parts of > the Khazar confederacy. ?Kwalisse? is derived from Persian and > means ?Man of Kwala?. ?Kwala? is another name for the land of > Chorasmia which was east of the Caspian. ?Kwala?, or Choresmia, in > Hebrew writings (such as those of Eldad HaDani) is referred to as > ?Havila?. In the History of Holland by Jean Francoise Le Petit > (1601), ?Havila? was possessed by the three brothers Saxo, Frisso, > and Bruno who represented the Saxon, Frissian, and Anglian peoples. > {These same three brothers in other Frisian legends came from the > Land of Israel and are to be identified with former inhabitants of > the Northern Kingdom, see "The Tribes" by Yair Davidiy}. ?Havila?, > says Le Petit, was in the ?East Indies? near the Eumodian Mountains > of which the three brothers were made guardians. According to > Ptolemy the ?Eumodian Mountains? were the Altai Mountain Range or > near it. It follows from the above that ?Havila? in effect equalled > ?Kwala? or Chorasmia. Within the region of Chorasmia-Havila Ptolemy > recalled the presence of various Scythian peoples who, in ?The > Tribes?, are traced to Israelite entities. Examples include the > Aspassi (Menasseh of Joseph), the Massaei (Menasseh), Machetegi > (Maacha in Menasseh), Suobeni (Jospeh), Samnites (Simeon), Zaratae > (Zarathites of Simeon), Namastae (Namuel of Simeon), and so on. It > will be noticed that the mentioned groups are predominantly from > Menasseh, or from Joseph, (father of Menasseh), or from Simeon and > the Khazars are recorded as belonging to the Tribes of Simeon and > Menasseh. Most of the peoples listed by Ptolemy had migrated > westward at the time of the Hun invasions of Europe or before then. > Nevertheless, remnants evidently stayed behind and these became > part of the peoples comprising the Khazar nations. From this region > emerged the Parthians, many of whom converted to Judaism and who > may be linked with the Khazars. In their own time the Arsacid > rulers of Parthia were accredited Israelite origins. An Arab source > (Yakut) (Ben-Zvi p.247), says: ?Isaac son of Abraham was the > father of Khazar, and Bazar, and Bursul, and Horesm [i.e. Chorasmia- > Havila] and Peel?, - all of which peoples appear to have been > members of the Khazar confederation. > The Khazars and Scandinavia > The Persians considered the Khazars a Scythian people. > Herodotus (4;2) said that the Agathyrsoi (Khazars) were brothers to > the Royal Scythians and Gelones. The Royal Scythians (Scuthae > Basiloi) gave their name to Scandinavia which was known as > ?Basilia? and ?Scatanavia? (Pliny N.H. 37;11). A portion of the > Khazars were known as ?Basilians? and their land, (by the Danaper > River Mouth west of the Crimea in a former Royal Scyth region), as > ?Bartsula?. "Basil" in Ancinet Mesopotamia was a term applied to > the Bashan east of the Jordan River and northwards all of which > that was once part of the territory of the Israelite Tribes of > Menasseh, Reuben, and Gad (cf. Deuteronomy 4:43). > New archaeological findings have revealed the former presence of a > colony of Khazars that existed in Birka in Central Sweden. These > Khazars may have been linked with the early Angles and Saxons since > the Baltic port of Hedeby was also linked with Birka in Sweden. > Hedeby had been a center of the Angles before they moved to > Britain. Hedeby was the place were Sheaf Saxnot the mythical > ancestor of the Anglo-Saxons first arrived at. Sheaf had come from > an unknown land in a boat without oars. He taught his people > agriculture and the arts of civilization. Geofrrey of Monmouth > noted the presence of Picts in Scandinavia and he may have been > referring to the Khazars who were also known as Agathyrsi and > ancestors to part of the Picts. A Swedish scholar has claimed > Khazar intermarriages with the Swedish aristocracy in Sweden. > KHAZARS AND FINNS > The Khazars were considered ("Jewish Encyclopedia") to > have spoken a Finnish language as did many Steppe peoples of > different origins. There used to exist an opinion that most of the > Finns did not enter Finland (from Scythia) until the 700s and 800s > CE, though nowadays this notion appears to have been dismissed. > There may be a connection between the Khazars and the Finnish > people. The Finns of Finland in the 17th and 18th centuries > believed themselves to be descended from the Lost Ten Tribes of > Israel. The Finnish national hero and one-time leader, Marshall > Mannerheim, believed that the Finns were descended from the Tribe > of Issachar. The Finns call themselves Suomi (?Shuomi?) which is > said to mean ?people of the marshes? or something like that. > Nevertheless the name is not dissimilar to that of Simeon > (?Shimeon?) in Hebrew, and the Khazars were traditionally descended > from Menasseh and Simeon. Existing names are frequently re- > interpreted and adapted to fit changing circumstances. The Finns > appear to be descended from the Iyrcae (or ?Turcae?) former > neighbours of the Nephtalite Huns. In our work, ?The Tribes? the > Finns are traced to the Tribes of Gad, Issachar, and Simeon. > > The Israelite Origins of the Khazars > We have seen that the ?Sambation? was in Khazar > territory. The Arabs linked the Khazars with Isaac; names of groups > in the Khazar area bore Israelite Tribal and clan names; Jewish and > Khazar traditions link them with Israel. The Khazars had familial > links with peoples who moved to Western Europe and whom other > proofs show to have been of Israelite descent. Also indicative of > Hebrew ancestry is the fact that they converted to Judaism despite > the hostility expressed to this religion by other peoples in the > region. > > We believe that the Khazars were mainly the > descendants of Jews and of Israelites from the Lost Ten Tribes. We > have evidence for this belief. There were also numerous Rabbanical > Jews who fled to the Land of the Khazars and settled there. The > Land of the Khazars relatively speaking was close to and connected > by trade and culture to the former region of Babylonia which had > remained a center of Jewish population ever since the time of > Nebuchadnezzar. With the Muslim conquest of Mesopotamia, > persecutions of the Jews in Byzantium, and general change of > circumstances much of Babylonian Jewry moved into the Khazar region. > > Many have claimed that many European Jews are descended from > Khazars - this may be, but it has not been proven. If it were so it > would strengthen our position rather than weaken it. HOWEVER there > is NO evidence. NOT that there is evidence that can be dismissed > BUT that there is none APART, (perhaps) from the names of a few > villages in Poland, and the fanciful imaginations of a few > dilettantes. The Khazars emerged into history at a time when > Turkish culture was dominant in their area and at one stage were > ruled over by Turkish groups. Jews had many contacts with the > Khazars and with the Turks and many Jews had dwelt in both the > Khazar Kingdom and in the Turkish Empire. If we were to find traces > of the Khazars or Turkish-influences in Jewish culture etc it would > not necessarily prove anything since such things can be absorbed by > historical contact. > BUT EVEN THIS WE DO NOT FIND! > There are no names, no real family traditions, no > customs, no words, not anything at all that can provide us with > even a flimsy connection between the European Jews and the Khazars > whom they are supposed to be descended from. A few nineteenth- > century Assimilated Hungarian Jews claimed to be descended from > Khazars (considered then to be a Magyar Hungarian-type people > because that would make them next-of-kin to their Gentile Hungarian > neighbors but they had no proof or not even any real evidence. > So-called "Identity" People who dedicate energy and time to > "proving" (in their minds) that the Jews are Khazars etc are > actually enemies of Identity truth. They are knowing or unknowing > agents of anti-semitic interests that are also against the "Anglo- > Saxon" existence. > Much Additional EVIDENCE strengthens the case that the > Khazars were of Israelite descent in so far as the proofs in > question show that the Khazars really did consider themselves on > the whole to be of Israelite origin and so were regarded by most > Jewish authorities who were familiar with them. The evidence in > question consists of Hebraic sources and historical evidence that > will (God willing) be discussed in a book we are preparing and hope > to publish shortly. > God bless you, O Seekers of the Truth, Yair Davidiy > > Sources: > Altheim, Franz. ?Geschichte Der Hunnen?, Berlin 1962. > Articles in Encyclopedia Brittanica, Encyclopedia Judaica, > Universal Jewish > Encyclopedia, The Jewish Encyclopedia, > Bachrach, B.S. ?A History of the Alans in the West?, U.S.A., 1973 > Baschmakoff, A. ?Cinquante Siecles D?Evolution Ethnique Autour de > la Mer Noir?, Paris 1937 > Ben-Zvi, Isaac. ?The Exiled and the Redeemed?, London, 1958. > Boba, Imre ?Nomads, Northmen and Slavs. Eastern Europe in the Ninth > Century?, > 1967, The Hague. > Davidiy, Yair ?The Tribes?, ?Ephraim?, ?Identity?,. > Dunlop, D.M. ?The History of the Jewish Khazars?, New Jersey, > U.S.A., 1951. > Golden, Peter B. ?Khazar Studies?, Budapest, 1980 > Henning, W.B. ?A Farewell to the Khazars of the Aq-Aqataran?, > BSOAS, 1952, pp.501ff > McGovern, W. MacKenzie, Donald A.. ?Scottish Folk-Lore and Folk- > Life. Studies in > Race, Culture, and Tradition?, U.K., 1935. > Minorsky, V. ?Hudud al-Alam?. ?The Regions of the World?, A > Persian Geography > 372 A.H. -982 A.d. Translated and Explained by V. Minorsky, edited > by CE Bosworth, > London, 1970. > Montgomery, ?The Early Empires of Central Asia?, New York, 1939. > Kasdoi, Zvi. ?The Tribes of Jacob and the Preserved of > Israel? (Hebrew), Haifa, > 1928. Kasdoi, Zvi. ?HaMityahadim?. > Koestler, Arthur. ?The Thirteenth Tribe. The Khazar Empire and Its > Heritage?, New York, 1967. > Polak, Abraham. ?Kazaria? (Hebrew), Tel-Aviv, Israel, 1951. > Vernadsky, George. ?The Origins of Russia?, 1959, Oxford, U.K. > Vernadsky, George. ?Ancient Russia?, Yale, U.S.A., 1943. > > > > See Also the following Brit-Am articles: > > Edward (Ephraim) Hirsch > "The Khazars are coming" > > Brit-Am Answers to Queries: Khazars > > Steven M. Collins: > THE KHAZARS AND THE MODERN JEWS > > > Home > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From kim.alvarado at charter.net Thu Dec 6 00:53:34 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:53:34 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 In-Reply-To: <120620070523.4171.4757875000080E9B0000104B22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <20071206015334.ZN2FT.362722.root@fepweb01> Very amazing news! I am sure everyone who hears will be as blessed by the CD as I was/am. Kim ---- carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: ============= Well, maybe it's a day late but tonite our album Hac V'Shema was posted to a web-radio station that broadcasts from Israel to 105 countries. The site is http://www.inspiredfaith.org/. This is a most amazing thing to me. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from patricia robbins : -------------- I've not had any Kislev 24 experiences. If anyone has, I'd love to hear them. This being the 4oth year since the Six Day War (as you mentioned to Hanoch), we could be in for quite a ride "from this day forward!" After the 40 years of wandering in the desert - due to the fact that they were afraid of the giants in the land - it was TIME to go in and possess it. From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:47:11 -0500 Dear Patricia, Thanks so much. I know what I sent was a bit dense and a lot to study, but it can be taken in pieces. It represents many years of study for me but I tried to offer a summary. These things have come in bits and pieces, since 1990, not all at once. I think I recall that you had some personal Kislev 24 experiences. Maybe you remember what you shared once and will feel like sharing again. Chag Sameach, James On Dec 4, 2007, at 10:04 PM, patricia robbins wrote: James, this is such a gift! Thank you so much! I've been studying it since it came in, and there is so much here! It has made me think of so many things. I'm taking notes to check all the ideas it has spurred. Alexander is such a key figure in all this. Hellenism is his baby. In the long count, he introduced the trampling of Jerusalem. In the short count, there will probably be a connection to him again. Did you reckon the September 3rd birth of Yeshua because of a hunch that he would have been conceived on Kislev 24? It does make sense. Do you feel that John 10:22 is referring to Hanukkah? I feel certain that you are right when you say that Kislev 24 is THE date. It's what is important. Hanukkah is a RESULT of the redemption of Kislev 24! This is fabulous!!!!! General Allenby freed Jerusalem Kislev 24, 1917. The Tribes' redemption was begun on Kislev 24, 1927. The regathering and re-uniting with Judah must surely follow suit. I wonder if there is a Kislev 24 count from 1927 that we should be recognizing that pertains to regathering and re-uniting? Isn't the pattern: first Judah, then the Tribes? Like first Jerusalem was liberated (1917), then the Tribes redemption was conceived (1927)? I know that you don't have time to answer all these questions. I just appreciate so much that you made me think of all these questions - and many more! You are very much appreciated, dear Teacher. Please don't forget to tell us about the Sanhedrin tombs. Thank you for this meaningful Kislev 24th. Happy Hanukkah to you. Oh, and thank you also for noting that Zechariah had 8 night visions! You really "lit up" this first night for us! I think you're our own personal Shamash!!!!! Pat From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today--just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight days, read through and study it... The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that the Temple be rebuilt and that the constitution of the new state of Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read car efully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the ground. And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence. Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAKE the heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only briefly alludes. This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November. He has EIGHT night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world dominion! Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, likely in some sequential order, both the preliminary events, and the detailed climax, of the "time of the end." So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir Isaac Newton so much. During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption. Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it begins: "I have returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential meaning of THIS DAY. I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months before his birth in September 3 BCE. But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The Torah read ing was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it turned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especially Ezekiel, that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph is yet to come , "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai refers remains to be seen. It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the "countdo wn" begins. I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for any of us, and a time of new beginnings. _______________________________________________ From kim.alvarado at charter.net Thu Dec 6 01:36:55 2007 From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 23:36:55 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 In-Reply-To: <120620070523.4171.4757875000080E9B0000104B22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <20071206023655.7Q1AE.363001.root@fepweb01> BTW, it's not late if you are going by the observed calender which is a day behind :) Kim ---- carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: ============= Well, maybe it's a day late but tonite our album Hac V'Shema was posted to a web-radio station that broadcasts from Israel to 105 countries. The site is http://www.inspiredfaith.org/. This is a most amazing thing to me. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from patricia robbins : -------------- I've not had any Kislev 24 experiences. If anyone has, I'd love to hear them. This being the 4oth year since the Six Day War (as you mentioned to Hanoch), we could be in for quite a ride "from this day forward!" After the 40 years of wandering in the desert - due to the fact that they were afraid of the giants in the land - it was TIME to go in and possess it. From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:47:11 -0500 Dear Patricia, Thanks so much. I know what I sent was a bit dense and a lot to study, but it can be taken in pieces. It represents many years of study for me but I tried to offer a summary. These things have come in bits and pieces, since 1990, not all at once. I think I recall that you had some personal Kislev 24 experiences. Maybe you remember what you shared once and will feel like sharing again. Chag Sameach, James On Dec 4, 2007, at 10:04 PM, patricia robbins wrote: James, this is such a gift! Thank you so much! I've been studying it since it came in, and there is so much here! It has made me think of so many things. I'm taking notes to check all the ideas it has spurred. Alexander is such a key figure in all this. Hellenism is his baby. In the long count, he introduced the trampling of Jerusalem. In the short count, there will probably be a connection to him again. Did you reckon the September 3rd birth of Yeshua because of a hunch that he would have been conceived on Kislev 24? It does make sense. Do you feel that John 10:22 is referring to Hanukkah? I feel certain that you are right when you say that Kislev 24 is THE date. It's what is important. Hanukkah is a RESULT of the redemption of Kislev 24! This is fabulous!!!!! General Allenby freed Jerusalem Kislev 24, 1917. The Tribes' redemption was begun on Kislev 24, 1927. The regathering and re-uniting with Judah must surely follow suit. I wonder if there is a Kislev 24 count from 1927 that we should be recognizing that pertains to regathering and re-uniting? Isn't the pattern: first Judah, then the Tribes? Like first Jerusalem was liberated (1917), then the Tribes redemption was conceived (1927)? I know that you don't have time to answer all these questions. I just appreciate so much that you made me think of all these questions - and many more! You are very much appreciated, dear Teacher. Please don't forget to tell us about the Sanhedrin tombs. Thank you for this meaningful Kislev 24th. Happy Hanukkah to you. Oh, and thank you also for noting that Zechariah had 8 night visions! You really "lit up" this first night for us! I think you're our own personal Shamash!!!!! Pat From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today--just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight days, read through and study it... The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that the Temple be rebuilt and that the constitution of the new state of Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read car efully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the ground. And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence. Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAKE the heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only briefly alludes. This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November. He has EIGHT night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world dominion! Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, likely in some sequential order, both the preliminary events, and the detailed climax, of the "time of the end." So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir Isaac Newton so much. During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption. Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it begins: "I have returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential meaning of THIS DAY. I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months before his birth in September 3 BCE. But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The Torah read ing was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it turned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especially Ezekiel, that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph is yet to come , "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai refers remains to be seen. It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the "countdo wn" begins. I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for any of us, and a time of new beginnings. _______________________________________________ From CBrown4465 at aol.com Thu Dec 6 06:15:43 2007 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 07:15:43 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Message-ID: James: I did not have the privilege of meeting or knowing David Horowitz in person, nevertheless, I have come to know him from his book - Thirty Three Candles - and it would not be surprising to learn someday that he was used of God to take history in a direction that would not have occurred without him. He certainly was a devout man on a mission and worked tirelessly toward a Jewish state. What form of Judaism did David Horowitz adhere to? Clyde **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/148b917f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 14:50:17 -0500 Size: 10705 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/148b917f/attachment.mht From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Dec 6 07:25:42 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:25:42 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Date Converter Calender In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Ross! I love your web site, and enjoy just looking around there! From: RNDAVAR at aol.comDate: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 23:22:24 -0500Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Date Converter CalenderTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org You can also go to my web site. I have the current moon, date, and the annual torah reading schedule etc. Go here http://rootsoffaith.org/welcome.htm, and scroll until you get to the moon. Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/16849b4b/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Dec 6 07:56:58 2007 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:56:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 In-Reply-To: <120620070523.4171.4757875000080E9B0000104B22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <120620070523.4171.4757875000080E9B0000104B22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: MAZEL TOV!!!!! HAC V'SHEMA IS A WONDERFUL ALBUM!!!!! THIS IS TERRIFIC NEWS!!!!!!! From: carlson_john at bellsouth.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 05:23:35 +0000 Well, maybe it's a day late but tonite our album Hac V'Shema was posted to a web-radio station that broadcasts from Israel to 105 countries. The site is http://www.inspiredfaith.org/. This is a most amazing thing to me. --John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from patricia robbins : -------------- I've not had any Kislev 24 experiences. If anyone has, I'd love to hear them. This being the 4oth year since the Six Day War (as you mentioned to Hanoch), we could be in for quite a ride "from this day forward!" After the 40 years of wandering in the desert - due to the fact that they were afraid of the giants in the land - it was TIME to go in and possess it. From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:47:11 -0500Dear Patricia, Thanks so much. I know what I sent was a bit dense and a lot to study, but it can be taken in pieces. It represents many years of study for me but I tried to offer a summary. These things have come in bits and pieces, since 1990, not all at once. I think I recall that you had some personal Kislev 24 experiences. Maybe you remember what you shared once and will feel like sharing again. Chag Sameach, James On Dec 4, 2007, at 10:04 PM, patricia robbins wrote: James, this is such a gift! Thank you so much! I've been studying it since it came in, and there is so much here! It has made me think of so many things. I'm taking notes to check all the ideas it has spurred. Alexander is such a key figure in all this. Hellenism is his baby. In the long count, he introduced the trampling of Jerusalem. In the short count, there will probably be a connection to him again. Did you reckon the September 3rd birth of Yeshua because of a hunch that he would have been conceived on Kislev 24? It does make sense. Do you feel that John 10:22 is referring to Hanukkah? I feel certain that you are right when you say that Kislev 24 is THE date. It's what is important. Hanukkah is a RESULT of the red emption of Kislev 24! This is fabulous!!!!! General Allenby freed Jerusalem Kislev 24, 1917. The Tribes' redemption was begun on Kislev 24, 1927. The regathering and re-uniting with Judah must surely follow suit. I wonder if there is a Kislev 24 count from 1927 that we should be recognizing that pertains to regathering and re-uniting? Isn't the pattern: first Judah, then the Tribes? Like first Jerusalem was liberated (1917), then the Tribes redemption was conceived (1927)? I know that you don't have time to answer all these questions. I just appreciate so much that you made me think of all these questions - and many more! You are very much appreciated, dear Teacher. Please don't forget to tell us about the Sanhedrin tombs. Thank you for this meaningful Kislev 24th. Happy Hanukkah to you. Oh, and thank you also for noting that Zechariah had 8 night visio ns! You really "lit up" this first night for us! I think you're our own personal Shamash!!!!! Pat From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:20:03 -0500Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 I have waited until past sundown to send this as I did not want to interfere with folks as they are focusing on the meaning of Hanukkah, which has taken on its own varied and diverse life through two millennia of Jewish observance. In all the focus on Hanukkah there is another, perhaps more important, date--also falling today--just before sundown, that leads us into the celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, if one understands it I believe it might well be the very REASON that we celebrate this strange feast just before winter...This is long, but when you have time over the next eight days, read through and study it... The Mystery of Kislev 24 aka "the 24th day of the 9th month..." The book of the prophet Haggai comes to us from the 2nd year of the Persian King Darius, late summer, August, 520 BCE. It is one of the most precisely dated books in the Hebrew Bible, much like its sister Zechariah, and its twin Malachi. The three go together, like peas in the pod, both coming from that crucial time of the "restoration" of Judah to the Land following the Babylonian captivity. Collectively they are our LAST WORD from Yehovah in terms of how the redemption is to unfold. It is very likely, based on Haggai 1:12, where the Prophet is called the "messenger of Yehovah," that Haggai IS in fact the author of the book we call Malachi, as this book is just named "My Messenger," and the name of the prophet who wrote it is not given. Both Haggai and Zechariah address their contemporary situation, as one would expect, and are concerned that the Temple be rebuilt and th at the constitution of the new state of Judah be ordered according to the Torah. However, if read carefully, both clearly understand that this restoration of Judah is only a preliminary, even symbolic step, to a coming GREAT restoration of Judah and ALL Israel. Even though there is a Priest (Joshua), and a Governor (Zerubbabel) of the Davidic line, there is no anointing of the BRANCH figure of whom both Isaiah and Jeremiah had spoken. One way of putting this is to say that Haggai and Zechariah are working in the tall shadow of JEREMIAH (see especially chapters 30-31), and they know, from his clear and powerful prophecies, that the final days have not come with this tiny little beachhead return of a portion of Judah to the land. But they do believe that this return of Judah is a "sign" of things to come, and a guarantee that the Plan of Yehovah, to fill the earth with justice and righteousness, through Abraham's seed, is not to fall to the ground. And that leads us to the curious and fascinating references to the 24th day of the 9th month--Kislev 24 in modern Jewish parlance. Notice, reading the book of Haggai is sequential, it takes you through the last months of the year. It begins with the Rosh Chodesh of the 6th month (August), takes you through the 21st day of the 7th month (2:1), which is the last day of Sukkoth (October), and then into December--with the 24th day of the 9th month. Haggai's third and fourth messages come on this very day. It is a short book, and if you skim it through you will see the building sequence.Kislev 24 is mentioned FOUR times in the second chapters, verses 10, 15, 18 and 20. Twice it is emphasized that "from THIS DAY FORWARD I will bless you," and twice Haggai gets a special Word from Yehovah, on this very day. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context, but the message is basically that Yehovah will "SHAK E the heavens and the earth and ALL NATIONS," overthrowing their power, anoint the chosen one (symbolized in that day by Zerubbabel), and essentially make Jerusalem the new world capital. For the DETAILS you need to go back, of course, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah in particular, as they set forth the entire agenda to which Haggai only briefly alludes. This messages is addressed to the two "messiahs," the Priest and the "King" or Governor, Joshua and Zerubbabel, respectively (2:4-5). They become "signifiers" of things to come. They are not the final anointed ones, and Zechariah picks this up in his visions, especially chapters 4 and 6. These symbolic figures, as well as the promised presence of the Holy Spirit (see 2:5 and Zech 4:6!), is the GUARANTEE that Yehovah will bring about these promises. Notice, Zechariah begins getting his visions and messages in the 8th month of that same year (Zech 1:1), or mid-November.&nbs p; He has EIGHT night visions, they are all quite difficult to follow, but prophetically important in forecasting the redemptive future. There is much more detail in Zechariah, but the two, Haggai and Zechariah, should be read in tandem, as one explains the other. Now, note carefully, Kislev 24 is not specifically mentioned in Zechariah, but it is alluded to in chapter 4:8-10. It is the famous "day of small things," that one might be led to "despise," because after all, this tiny little remnant of Judah, beginning to lay the foundation of a nondescript temple, under the mighty thumb of the Persian empire, was hardly even worthy of the name of a city-state, much less a world kingdom, and yet had HOPES and DREAMS and promises of world dominion! Chapters 7-14 of Zechariah, which he gets two years later, are quite different. They are straightforward and fairly plain, laying out, likely in some sequential ord er, both the preliminary events, and the detailed climax, of the "time of the end."So, what about Kislev 24? It seems to have a three-fold meaning. First, in the time of Haggai and Zechariah, it was the day MARKED for the promise that the redemption would ultimately come about, not by power, nor by might, but by the Spirit of Yehovah--but "in its time." Second, subsequently though history, this day seems to be one upon which key events take place, perhaps only a few of which I have noted here below. And finally, my hunch is, even my strong conviction, that on some Kislev 24 in the future, it will serve as a "countdown marker" for the unfolding of the mysterious 1260/1290/1335/2300 days of Daniel's visions, which interested Sir Isaac Newton so much.During the period of the Maccabees, when Syrian ruler Antiochus IV unleashed his great persecution against the Jews of Judea/Palestine, it was on Kislev 24 that the enemy was defeated and the Temple freed from its desecration. That is why the festival of Chanukah is celebrated beginning at sundown, at the end of Kislev 24. In other words, it is NOT so much Chanukah that is important, as its marker date: Kislev 24. It seems to become a kind of banner date in history that marks any kind of "signal" of future redemption.Fast forward to December 9, 1917. General Allenby, leading the British forces (remember Lawrence of Arabia), liberates Jerusalem for the first time in centuries from Turkish/Muslim rule. The date on the Jewish calendar--you guessed it: Kislev 24! That evening the Jewish soldiers in the British army celebrated Chanukah and went to the Wall in openness and freedom. The Torah reading that week was Mikketz (Gen 41), where JOSEPH is raised to power and saves Judah. And the Haphtorah reading, for the special Sabbath of Chanukah, as it is today, is the fascinating Zechariah 2:14-4:7! Note how it begins: "I ha ve returned to Zion," which seems to be the essential meaning of THIS DAY. I seriously doubt that Allenby was aware, during the heat of the battle, of even Chanukah, but certainly he knew nothing of Kislev 24. I have not the slightest doubt, if we begin checking in history over the past 2520 years (remember that number), there have been numerous times when Kislev 24 has played a large part, and even a smaller more symbolic part, in the unfolding of redemptive history. For example, no matter what one's view of Yeshua might be, it seems in all likelihood that Yeshua was conceived on this day, nine months before his birth in September 3 BCE. But to more recent and personal matters. Dennis Jones and I discovered, to our complete surprise, back in 1992, that the encounter David Horowitz had at the cave with his teacher Moshe Guibbory was on Friday night, December 16/17, 1927--and again, you guessed it, this was Kislev 24th. The Torah reading was Vayeshev, as it is today, which begins the Joseph cycle, and the Haphtorah was Amos 2:6-3:8, which seems quite appropriate. David had no idea of this until we began to check into his documents and figure out just what week in December he had his "33 Candle" experience. Again, was that chance, or was it perhaps the beginning of something in terms of Judah and Joseph uniting. In 1992 we took David back to that cave on December 18/19, a Friday again, of course, ten years ago yesterday, and it was again Kislev 24, with the same Torah and Haphtorah readings. Dennis Jones, Ross Nichols, and I, also paid a Kislev 24 visit to Moshe Guibbory's son in Seattle in 1998. The Torah reading was Mikketz and we had a special candle lighting ceremony, not so much to recognize Chanukah, as Kislev 24 and its symbolic meaning both past and future. The next year, in a completely unscheduled trip to Israel at the end of the year, it tu rned out I was in Jerusalem on Kislev 24 and I spent Friday night at sundown sitting in front of the Sanhedrin Cave. Sometime I will write more of what I think might be the wider significance of these tombs of the Sanhedrin, in fact, I just discovered something new in talking to someone at the recent conference at Brown University on Qumran, site of the Dead Sea Scrolls.Now, a tiny bit on the numbers. Note, these important visions came in the year 520 BCE. The year 2000/2001 marks 2520 years since that first Kislev 24 vision of Haggai. The number 2520 is interesting, it has several mystical mathematical properties, which I will not cover right here, but one most obvious one is that it is 7 x 360, or seven "prophetic years." A prophetic year in the Bible is 360 days, thus we get in the books of Daniel and Revelation the period of 1260 days for 3.5 years. There are a number of indications, both in the Torah and Prophets, especia lly Ezekiel, that a kind of "day for a year" principle applies in Prophecy, and accordingly, the official "Exile" of Joseph and Judah would last 2520 years. This is the meaning, I believe, of the "after two days" and "on the third day" references in Hosea 6. Now Judah was essentially "restored" in type at least, in the year 520, but the full restoration, and the union of things between Judah and Joseph is yet to come, "after two days" according to Hosea (a day is a "thousand years" in these prophetic texts). The point is, based on this chronology, we are "in" the third day, as of the year 2000. And indeed, it does appear we have begun to experience a "shaking of all things." Whether this is the ultimate upheaval to which Haggai refers remains to be seen. It is also worth noting, in terms of Kislev 24, that if you add 2300 days (the figure in Daniel 8) to that day, you always, on the Jewish calendar, come to the last day of Unleavened Bread, oddly something like 6.3 years later. In other words, it is sort of a strange figure. And there are then various interesting ways, too complicated to go into here, that the periods of Daniel (1260/1290/1335) fit in, taking one to Shavuot of any given sequence of years. We do know for certain that the 2300 "days" was fulfilled as a "day for a year" running from Alexander's defeat of Darius in 334 BCE (June 7), to the day, to June 7, 1967--when Jerusalem was liberated by the Israelis in the Six Day War. The point seems to be that Alexander's march to Jerusalem began a period of 2300 days/years of the trampling of Jerusalem. So what this seems to indicate is that there is a larger (day for a year) fulfillment of these periods, as well as a shorter "day for a day" fulfillment, once the "countdown" begins. I would conclude then, from these indications, that on some Kislev 24, at some year "on our days and in our time" (whether past or future), we will come to recognize that Haggai's "shaking" did indeed begin. I, for one, do not believe that time has quite yet come, but every year at this time my thoughts go to this date, given such an important designation by Haggai and Zechariah. On a personal level, it seems it can always be a date of "renewal" for any of us, and a time of new beginnings. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/99b16b90/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Thu Dec 6 08:43:12 2007 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 09:43:12 EST Subject: [Dialogue] The little Scroll Rev 10 Message-ID: Dear dailoguees: I will most likely be taken to task for my interpretation of the little scroll in Rev 10, but for what its worth, I will present it anyway for comment. Again it is speculation and even if not correct it can open the mind to things that are. In Rev 10:1 another mighty messenger/angel came down from heaven, and he had in his hand a little Scroll. Skipping ahead the seer was instructed to not write down what was in the little Scroll. Upon the instruction the seer did not record what was in the little Scroll, and perhaps he was not to reveal what was therein, because it did not pertain to the times of the seer. But then the mighty messenger/angel gave a hint of where to find the contents of the little Scroll. In v. 6: And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven and the things therein are, and the earth, and the things that are therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, and there shall be no more delay Now v. 7: But in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger /angel when he shall begin to sound the trumpet, the mystery of God should be fulfilled, as he has declared to his servants the prophets. Could the hint be if we would know what is in the little Scroll, we must turn to the servants the prophets in the Hebrew bible? And again v. 6, and there shall be no more delay. Could this signal of being no more delay relate to those things in the prophets, such as restoring the house of Israel with the house of Judah as one house as in the days of king David? Two sticks becoming one in the hand of YHVH? And could the statement that there should be no more delay have begun in restoring the nation of Judah? if Judah has gone up first to posses Zion 1967, should we not be far away from YHVH returning to the earth in the Kavod, to draw back to the land a remnant from the lost sheep of the house of Israel? Other scriptures can be brought to bare upon the issue but in context I find Isaiah 52:7-8 fascinating: How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the messenger of good tidings, that announces salvation; that says unto Zion Thy God reigns; Hark, the watchmen they lift the voice, together they do sing; for they shall see, eye to eye, YHVH returning to Zion. Has Gentile Christianity missed the great moment altogether? Whether one looks for a messiah to come or one to return is not the point here I think. Could the greater moment be in some sense what the little Scroll points toward, that is the return of YHVH to the earth? I believe in giving credit where credit is due, and the return of YHVH to the earth, I owe to the article on the UI web site. Are we the generation that might see, eye to eye the return of YHVH to the earth? And if so, can we take Amos 9:11, in a most literal sense? In that day will I [YHVH] raise the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof [between the northern and southern house] and I [YHVH] will build it as in the days of old [as in the days of David]. David pitched the Succoth/tabernacle for the ARK of the covenant. Jeremiah was given provisions and a present by the captain of the royal guard Jer 40:5. What was the gift? It doesn't say. But in 2nd Macc, it was said that Jeremiah hid the tabernacle of David, the ARK of the covenant, and the golden alter of incense, and it is to remain hidden until God shows his mercy to his children. Whatever one might think of Paul, and his timing was surely off target, but he was studied in the prophets. Where would Paul be thinking in the prophets that the time would come when ALL ISRAEL shall be delivered/saved? I am of course suggesting things way over my head. But if it causes us to broaden our views, and consider those things that have been and things to come, might we be more alert to observe if indeed YHVH has begun to bare his Holy ARM in ways that might shake the foundations of the world? Now I will wait upon the comments of those more expert in the prophets than myself. Clyde **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/a8390d4a/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 09:27:55 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 07:27:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] CD playing on IFN Message-ID: <526843.17582.qm@web57103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hey John, I just heard you singing on Inspired Faith Radio. Sounds GREAT! Tammy ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/fa5a02af/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 6 09:36:06 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:36:06 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] CD playing on IFN Message-ID: <120620071536.23948.475816E5000A994500005D8C22216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Thanks. Like I said, it's a most amazing thing to me. Rabbi Nachman is a very wise man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tammy & Bruce Croley : -------------- Hey John, I just heard you singing on Inspired Faith Radio. Sounds GREAT! Tammy ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/23a2c994/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 09:54:04 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 07:54:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] CD playing on IFN In-Reply-To: <120620071536.23948.475816E5000A994500005D8C22216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <139176.27142.qm@web57115.mail.re3.yahoo.com> John, Yes I enjoy reading Rebbe Nachman. I also enjoy studying with Rabbi Avraham Greenbaum, who teaches a lot of Rebbe Nachman. Rabbi Greenbaum came to Birmingham, AL about 5 weeks ago and Bruce and I, along with our 16 year son, went to the Chabad House to hear him. It was simply wonderful. Rabbi Greenbaum spent 4 weeks in North America and Birmingham was the only city in this part of the US that he came to. The rest of his visit was spent on the west coast and in Canada. Shalom, Tammy carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: Thanks. Like I said, it's a most amazing thing to me. Rabbi Nachman is a very wise man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tammy & Bruce Croley : -------------- Hey John, I just heard you singing on Inspired Faith Radio. Sounds GREAT! Tammy ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/5658ba38/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 6 09:58:32 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:58:32 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] CD playing on IFN Message-ID: <120620071558.7384.47581C280004A54F00001CD822216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Where is he from? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tammy & Bruce Croley : -------------- John, Yes I enjoy reading Rebbe Nachman. I also enjoy studying with Rabbi Avraham Greenbaum, who teaches a lot of Rebbe Nachman. Rabbi Greenbaum came to Birmingham, AL about 5 weeks ago and Bruce and I, along with our 16 year son, went to the Chabad House to hear him. It was simply wonderful. Rabbi Greenbaum spent 4 weeks in North America and Birmingham was the only city in this part of the US that he came to. The rest of his visit was spent on the west coast and in Canada. Shalom, Tammy carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: Thanks. Like I said, it's a most amazing thing to me. Rabbi Nachman is a very wise man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tammy & Bruce Croley : -------------- Hey John, I just heard you singing on Inspired Faith Radio. Sounds GREAT! Tammy ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/718edb09/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 10:05:16 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:05:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] CD playing on IFN In-Reply-To: <120620071558.7384.47581C280004A54F00001CD822216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <841221.81994.qm@web57109.mail.re3.yahoo.com> John, Rabbi Greenbaum is from Jerusalem. He has a program on the Universal Torah Network. This is the same site that Joe Good is on. Tammy carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: Where is he from? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tammy & Bruce Croley : -------------- John, Yes I enjoy reading Rebbe Nachman. I also enjoy studying with Rabbi Avraham Greenbaum, who teaches a lot of Rebbe Nachman. Rabbi Greenbaum came to Birmingham, AL about 5 weeks ago and Bruce and I, along with our 16 year son, went to the Chabad House to hear him. It was simply wonderful. Rabbi Greenbaum spent 4 weeks in North America and Birmingham was the only city in this part of the US that he came to. The rest of his visit was spent on the west coast and in Canada. Shalom, Tammy carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: Thanks. Like I said, it's a most amazing thing to me. Rabbi Nachman is a very wise man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tammy & Bruce Croley : -------------- Hey John, I just heard you singing on Inspired Faith Radio. Sounds GREAT! Tammy ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/97602841/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 6 10:19:38 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 16:19:38 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] CD playing on IFN In-Reply-To: <841221.81994.qm@web57109.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <120620071558.7384.47581C280004A54F00001CD822216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><841221.81994.qm@web57109.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1587805849-1196957987-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-217951850-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Oh. Duh. I thought that name sounded familiar. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Tammy & Bruce Croley Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:05:16 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] CD playing on IFN John, ? Rabbi Greenbaum is from Jerusalem.? He has a program on the Universal Torah Network.? This is the same site that Joe Good is on.? Tammy carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: Where is he from? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tammy & Bruce Croley : -------------- John, ?? Yes I enjoy reading Rebbe Nachman.? I also enjoy studying with Rabbi Avraham Greenbaum, who teaches a lot of Rebbe Nachman.? Rabbi Greenbaum came to Birmingham, AL? about 5 weeks ago and Bruce and I, along with our 16 year son, went to the Chabad House to hear him.? It was simply wonderful.? Rabbi Greenbaum spent 4 weeks in North America and Birmingham was the only city in this part of the US that he came to.? The rest of his visit was spent on the west coast and in Canada.? Shalom, Tammy carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: Thanks.? Like I said, it's a most amazing thing to me. ? Rabbi Nachman is a very wise man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tammy & Bruce Croley : -------------- Hey John, ? I just heard you singing on Inspired Faith Radio.? Sounds GREAT! Tammy ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 ---------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _______________________________________________ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 ---------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 ---------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Dec 6 11:33:15 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:33:15 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue]Fork in the Road Our Journey In-Reply-To: <247433198-1196915365-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1629070394-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <008301c8382e$156b6530$653c66c9@bettygivin> Denny, Thanks, Denny for your response, and you are welcome as far as the encouragement goes. I think that is a lot of what this dialogue list is all about...studying, learning, sharing, living what we learn, and encouraging others along the way. I am not really sure how this change of heart comes about either; but according to Jeremiah, when we are searching for G-d with all our hearts, then we will find G-d. For me, the first thing that really hit hard was the Sabbath; from the time it first entered my mind, the pull was irristible...and once I saw it, I just couldn't understand how I had not seen it before...but that was only the beginning. Once I opened that gate in my mind, it was as it a dam had broken loose inside me and all around me...my life was forever changed; and you are right...there is no going back. Years ago, several of us who were on this path together used to have a saying, "there is no stopping on the bridge!" Brian, you and Joy Beth probably remember that. I agree with John here, it is definitely not backwards, maybe "back" to the path that was lost somewhere along the way...the Ancient Path...back to G-d and Torah. There is a big difference, and I am sure that you would agree, between going backwards and going "back" to retrieve something valued! The fork in the road is an excellent analogy as well. Robert Frost's often quoted poem, "The Road Not Taken," has long been one of my personal favorites...way before I discovered the Ancient Path; I think it fits so well here. Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, And sorry I could not travel both And be one traveler, long I stood And looked down one as far as I could To where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, And having perhaps the better claim, Because it was grassy and wanted wear; Though as for that the passing there Had worn them really about the same, And both that morning equally lay In leaves no step had trodden black. Oh, I kept the first for another day! Yet knowing how way leads on to way, I doubted if I should ever come back. I shall be telling this with a sigh Somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-- I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference. Years ago, Roger and I were driving along a country road one day, we noticed a clearing and what appeared to be "two roads" converging much like the one in this poem. We stopped the car, got out and walked along "the road less traveled" for awhile. We discussed along the way how it seemed we belonged on this road and how it fit our lives as we always seemed to be walking to the beat of a different drummer... and it truly has made all the difference. It is so good to see and to meet so many fellow travelers along the way! Hanukkah Sameach to you all! Betty/Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) I don't think it is backwards Denny. We all have found a fork in the road. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Denny Johnson Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:06:22 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Betty, I can only imagine how I might have reacted a couple of years ago. Probably would have been totally blind to my condition. Why is it that we have had this change of heart? It seems so improbable that we would even be considering this path. It's like we are going backwards compared to the church. That is the way many of our friends and some family members look at us. They just laugh and don't understand. But, come what may, we are on this path for good. There is no turning back now. We are just glad we are not alone. Thank you for your words of encouragement. Hanukkah Sameach to you and yours. Denny On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:49 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Denny, thanks for this. Hanukkah is indeed so much more than candles, food and games. I especially liked the quote regarding the commandments of Antiochus which are in direct opposition to HaShem's commandments.talk about "in your face!" You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah Seen like this, they really get to the point! I just wonder how they would come across to someone who might still be heavy into the Greek/Hellenistic lifestyle and not be aware of it. Hanukkah Sameach! Betty/Elisheva ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Hi all, I got a kick out of the great Hanukkah videos on You Tube today. Thanks for the link. Tonight I am ready a book called Light in the Darkness - Hanukkah and the Disciples of Yeshua by First Fruits of Zion. It was mostly written by our friend Daniel Lancaster. It confirms to me what G-d put on my heart yesterday about looking at this holiday as a reminder to resist and fight the greek mindset on our western culture. If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it. Let me quote just a section of it, if I may. "There is a battle going on today. As far as the Body of Messiah goes, the Hanukkah revolution has just begun. The return to Torah is not a fad. It is not an American or Israeli phenomenon. It is international. It can no longer be called "the Messianic Jewish movement" because it has outgrown that context. It is spreading everywhere, to every people, and it is unstoppable because it is biblical. It is a sweeping Hanukkah (rededication) of the Body of Messiah. And that is what we need. If those of us coming out of the church culture look honestly at ourselves and measure ourselves against God's law, we have to admit that we are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees. Our people have been thoroughly Hellenized. Whether we realize it or not, we are patrons of Greek thought, Greek philosophy, Greek theology, Greek values, Greek paganism. These are all characteristics deeply rooted among us in the church culture. our people have been thoroughly Hellenized since before the time of the Messiah. We are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees." "The Body of Messiah is likened unto a Temple. Individually and corporately, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Like the Holy Temple of Jerusalem in the days of the Maccabees, we have been defiled as well. Even in the days of Paul, the 'Mystery of Torah-lessness' was at work among the believers. Paul himself said so, and he referred to Anti-Christ as 'the Man of Torah-lessness.' If the 'Man of No-Torah' was at work among the believers even in the first century, how much more now!" "Consider the statutes Antiochus decreed for Israel. Look at his laws! You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah For many centuries, Christianity has been following these laws of Anthiochus - the laws of the abomination of desolation - instead of the Torah of God. Only in recent years have Torah-oriented communities of believers been allowed to exist. Two hundred and fifty years to three hundred years ago in Europe, a community of Torah-keeping believers would not have survived long because of pressure from the church. Nor would it have fared well in America two-hundred years ago. the Hanukkah revolution has only just begun." The meaning of Hanukkah is far more than candles, food, fun and games. It is a call to throw off the Hellenistic ways and return to Torah and the Ancient Paths. I want to be a Maccabee and I am glad that we have many Judah's leading the way. Hope your Hanukkah is as inspirational as ours. Shalom, Denny I On Dec 5, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hanoch, I am finally finding time to catch up. Next to your saga, this is wonderful but I am still behind in reading, so I will still discover more gems. I am passing this on to my other lists, Thanks for all your contributions. On Dec 4, 2007, at 6:57 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a sense of humor! :-) Hanoch Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) ---------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/41ca82b2/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Dec 6 11:36:28 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:36:28 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] CD playing on IFN In-Reply-To: <120620071536.23948.475816E5000A994500005D8C22216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <008e01c8382e$88683180$653c66c9@bettygivin> Amazing, yes!!! I love it!!! I truly believe that music is the language of the soul. Sometimes music can touch a chord that nothing else can reach. The thoughts of so many people being blessed with that beautiful music sends chills all thru me! BARUCH HASHEM! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 9:36 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] CD playing on IFN Thanks. Like I said, it's a most amazing thing to me. Rabbi Nachman is a very wise man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tammy & Bruce Croley : -------------- Hey John, I just heard you singing on Inspired Faith Radio. Sounds GREAT! Tammy It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-ds hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 _____ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/c73f3264/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Dec 6 12:02:13 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:02:13 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions Message-ID: <8CA064943573F32-1720-4C39@mblk-d39.sysops.aol.com> Hanukkah Sameach L'Culam (Happy Hanukkah to everyone), ??? In my note to Bonnie last evening, I mentioned a pet peeve I had with the 'pigeon-hole' definitions my co-religionists seem to love to use to categorize each other.? Most of you folks are probably aware of the garden variety terms: 'Orthodox', 'Conservative', 'Reform' and 'Reconstructionist'.? You've probably even heard the terms, 'Ultra-Orthodox' and "Chassidic."? But do you know that we're also plagued with the alphabet soup of: 'ConservaDox', 'Ortho-prax', 'Renewal,' 'Yeshivish,' 'Shomer Mitzvot,' 'Traditional,' 'Black Hat,' 'Modern Orthodox,' 'Centerist Orthodox,' and more that I could make you dizzy with!? It's not much better in?Israel, where it seems that?people define themselves as Haredi ("Ultra Orthodox' - although there are both the?Chassidic ones, and the non-Chassidic ones), 'Religious,' 'Masorti (traditional), and 'Hiloni' - which?means 'secular.'? Although how do you?call someone who risks his or her life to?defend the Land of Israel, 'secular?'?? ???But it doesn't stop there boys and girls, no sir - among the religious (NOT the Ultra groups), you have the 'Dati-Leumi' - the 'National Religious' who made up those amazing Jews who settled in YESHA - Judea, Samaria and Gaza (may it be returned to our control immediately).? But now you also have something?called, 'Haredi-Leumi' - more 'strict,' but still 'National' - it's enough to drive you INSANE!? ?? Did you know that there's an actual ideological difference between those guys that wear colorful knit kipot (yarmulkes) and those that wear all black?? Did you know that among those that wear the black ones, there's a difference if it's 'velvet' or knit?? You can spend weeks just learning all this nonsense.? ?? So, where am I going with all of this?? I could just as easily pointed out the various Christian groups I've met, and how they define themselves based on various positions regarding Yeshua, and/or using the 'divine name.' ??? Personally, I always try to avoid the 'Orthodox' label, even 'Modern Orthodox' - because I don't want anyone to see me as THE Orthodox guy they know, since I don't see myself as anyone's 'role model.'? And that my personal views of things within Judaism are certainly not what anyone would consider a mainstream 'Orthodox' view.? And besides, the Torah is perfect, those who attempt to observe it are not....always remember that, no matter what costume someone is wearing.... ??? I noticed the difference of opinions relating to the term 'Gentile.'? I actually have a friend, who believes himself to be a "Lost Triber," and only wants me to refer to him as a "Non-Jew," but not a 'Gentile.'? ?? In my own case, growing up, I was the Jew...when I went to Israel, I was the American.? Among Americans in Israel, I became the New Yorker (which they loved pronouncing 'New Yawker'), among other New Yorkers, I'm the guy who grew up in the Bronx (something no one readily admits these days..).? And when I began reading Mormon literature, I found out that they consider ME a Gentile! ?? And what would you call the various people in this, and the UIWU lists?? How many defnitions would you need to appropriately designate them??? So what do all these terms mean, not a darn thing!?? ???I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably unnecessary! ?? Adjective less in NYC,? :-)? ?????????????? Hanoch ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/fc7b935d/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 12:06:55 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:06:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue]Fork in the Road Our Journey In-Reply-To: <008301c8382e$156b6530$653c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <743532.12644.qm@web57104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Shalom Betty, I know that you addressed this to Denny, but I just had to respond. The poem is beautiful and so well describes this path that we are taking. While it may not be the most worn path.....it is the best path for me at this time. It would have certainly been easier to remain on the other well worn path, but once I found the not so popular path it simply captivated me. I can never turn back......never diminish.........I must continue to increase!!! Thanks Betty for sharing. Happy Hanukkak, Tammy Betty Givin wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Denny, Thanks, Denny for your response, and you are welcome as far as the encouragement goes. I think that is a lot of what this dialogue list is all about...studying, learning, sharing, living what we learn, and encouraging others along the way. I am not really sure how this change of heart comes about either; but according to Jeremiah, when we are searching for G-d with all our hearts, then we will find G-d. For me, the first thing that really hit hard was the Sabbath; from the time it first entered my mind, the pull was irristible...and once I saw it, I just couldn't understand how I had not seen it before...but that was only the beginning. Once I opened that gate in my mind, it was as it a dam had broken loose inside me and all around me...my life was forever changed; and you are right...there is no going back. Years ago, several of us who were on this path together used to have a saying, "there is no stopping on the bridge!" Brian, you and Joy Beth probably remember that. I agree with John here, it is definitely not backwards, maybe "back" to the path that was lost somewhere along the way...the Ancient Path...back to G-d and Torah. There is a big difference, and I am sure that you would agree, between going backwards and going "back" to retrieve something valued! The fork in the road is an excellent analogy as well. Robert Frost's often quoted poem, "The Road Not Taken," has long been one of my personal favorites...way before I discovered the Ancient Path; I think it fits so well here. Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, And sorry I could not travel both And be one traveler, long I stood And looked down one as far as I could To where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, And having perhaps the better claim, Because it was grassy and wanted wear; Though as for that the passing there Had worn them really about the same, And both that morning equally lay In leaves no step had trodden black. Oh, I kept the first for another day! Yet knowing how way leads on to way, I doubted if I should ever come back. I shall be telling this with a sigh Somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-- I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference. Years ago, Roger and I were driving along a country road one day, we noticed a clearing and what appeared to be "two roads" converging much like the one in this poem. We stopped the car, got out and walked along "the road less traveled" for awhile. We discussed along the way how it seemed we belonged on this road and how it fit our lives as we always seemed to be walking to the beat of a different drummer... and it truly has made all the difference. It is so good to see and to meet so many fellow travelers along the way! Hanukkah Sameach to you all! Betty/Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) I don't think it is backwards Denny. We all have found a fork in the road. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Denny Johnson Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:06:22 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Betty, I can only imagine how I might have reacted a couple of years ago. Probably would have been totally blind to my condition. Why is it that we have had this change of heart? It seems so improbable that we would even be considering this path. It's like we are going backwards compared to the church. That is the way many of our friends and some family members look at us. They just laugh and don't understand. But, come what may, we are on this path for good. There is no turning back now. We are just glad we are not alone. Thank you for your words of encouragement. Hanukkah Sameach to you and yours. Denny On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:49 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Denny, thanks for this. Hanukkah is indeed so much more than candles, food and games. I especially liked the quote regarding the commandments of Antiochus which are in direct opposition to HaShem?s commandments talk about ?in your face!? You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah Seen like this, they really get to the point! I just wonder how they would come across to someone who might still be heavy into the Greek/Hellenistic lifestyle and not be aware of it. Hanukkah Sameach! Betty/Elisheva ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Hi all, I got a kick out of the great Hanukkah videos on You Tube today. Thanks for the link. Tonight I am ready a book called Light in the Darkness - Hanukkah and the Disciples of Yeshua by First Fruits of Zion. It was mostly written by our friend Daniel Lancaster. It confirms to me what G-d put on my heart yesterday about looking at this holiday as a reminder to resist and fight the greek mindset on our western culture. If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it. Let me quote just a section of it, if I may. "There is a battle going on today. As far as the Body of Messiah goes, the Hanukkah revolution has just begun. The return to Torah is not a fad. It is not an American or Israeli phenomenon. It is international. It can no longer be called "the Messianic Jewish movement" because it has outgrown that context. It is spreading everywhere, to every people, and it is unstoppable because it is biblical. It is a sweeping Hanukkah (rededication) of the Body of Messiah. And that is what we need. If those of us coming out of the church culture look honestly at ourselves and measure ourselves against God's law, we have to admit that we are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees. Our people have been thoroughly Hellenized. Whether we realize it or not, we are patrons of Greek thought, Greek philosophy, Greek theology, Greek values, Greek paganism. These are all characteristics deeply rooted among us in the church culture. our people have been thoroughly Hellenized since before the time of the Messiah. We are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees." "The Body of Messiah is likened unto a Temple. Individually and corporately, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Like the Holy Temple of Jerusalem in the days of the Maccabees, we have been defiled as well. Even in the days of Paul, the 'Mystery of Torah-lessness' was at work among the believers. Paul himself said so, and he referred to Anti-Christ as 'the Man of Torah-lessness.' If the 'Man of No-Torah' was at work among the believers even in the first century, how much more now!" "Consider the statutes Antiochus decreed for Israel. Look at his laws! You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah For many centuries, Christianity has been following these laws of Anthiochus - the laws of the abomination of desolation - instead of the Torah of God. Only in recent years have Torah-oriented communities of believers been allowed to exist. Two hundred and fifty years to three hundred years ago in Europe, a community of Torah-keeping believers would not have survived long because of pressure from the church. Nor would it have fared well in America two-hundred years ago. the Hanukkah revolution has only just begun." The meaning of Hanukkah is far more than candles, food, fun and games. It is a call to throw off the Hellenistic ways and return to Torah and the Ancient Paths. I want to be a Maccabee and I am glad that we have many Judah's leading the way. Hope your Hanukkah is as inspirational as ours. Shalom, Denny I On Dec 5, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hanoch, I am finally finding time to catch up. Next to your saga, this is wonderful but I am still behind in reading, so I will still discover more gems. I am passing this on to my other lists, Thanks for all your contributions. On Dec 4, 2007, at 6:57 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a sense of humor! :-) Hanoch Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) ---------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/6764b045/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 6 12:34:59 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:34:59 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue]Fork in the Road Our Journey Message-ID: <120620071834.21581.475840D1000E5B630000544D22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> That is one of my favorite poems as well Betty. Thanks for reminding me. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Denny, Thanks, Denny for your response, and you are welcome as far as the encouragement goes. I think that is a lot of what this dialogue list is all about...studying, learning, sharing, living what we learn, and encouraging others along the way. I am not really sure how this change of heart comes about either; but according to Jeremiah, when we are searching for G-d with all our hearts, then we will find G-d. For me, the first thing that really hit hard was the Sabbath; from the time it first entered my mind, the pull was irristible...and once I saw it, I just couldn't understand how I had not seen it before...but that was only the beginning. Once I opened that gate in my mind, it was as it a dam had broken loose inside me and all around me...my life was forever changed; and you are right...there is no going back. Years ago, several of us who were on this path together used to have a saying, "there is no stopping on the bridge!" Brian, you and Joy Beth probably remember that. I agree with John here, it is definitely not backwards, maybe "back" to the path that was lost somewhere along the way...the Ancient Path...back to G-d and Torah. There is a big difference, and I am sure that you would agree, between going backwards and going "back" to retrieve something valued! The fork in the road is an excellent analogy as well. Robert Frost's often quoted poem, "The Road Not Taken," has long been one of my personal favorites...way before I discovered the Ancient Path; I think it fits so well here. Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, And sorry I could not travel both And be one traveler, long I stood And looked down one as far as I could To where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, And having perhaps the better claim, Because it was grassy and wanted wear; Though as for that the passing there Had worn them really about the same, And both that morning equally lay In leaves no step had trodden black. Oh, I kept the first for another day! Yet knowing how way leads on to way, I doubted if I should ever come back. I shall be telling this with a sigh Somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-- I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference. Years ago, Roger and I were driving along a country road one day, we noticed a clearing and what appeared to be "two roads" converging much like the one in this poem. We stopped the car, got out and walked along "the road less traveled" for awhile. We discussed along the way how it seemed we belonged on this road and how it fit our lives as we always seemed to be walking to the beat of a different drummer... and it truly has made all the difference. It is so good to see and to meet so many fellow travelers along the way! Hanukkah Sameach to you all! Betty/Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) I don't think it is backwards Denny. We all have found a fork in the road. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Denny Johnson Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:06:22 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Betty, I can only imagine how I might have reacted a couple of years ago. Probably would have been totally blind to my condition. Why is it that we have had this change of heart? It seems so improbable that we would even be considering this path. It's like we are going backwards compared to the church. That is the way many of our friends and some family members look at us. They just laugh and don't understand. But, come what may, we are on this path for good. There is no turning back now. We are just glad we are not alone. Thank you for your words of encouragement. Hanukkah Sameach to you and yours. Denny On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:49 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Denny, thanks for this. Hanukkah is indeed so much more than candles, food and games. I especially liked the quote regarding the commandments of Antiochus which are in direct opposition to HaShem?s commandments?talk about ?in your face!? You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah Seen like this, they really get to the point! I just wonder how they would come across to someone who might still be heavy into the Greek/Hellenistic lifestyle and not be aware of it. Hanukkah Sameach! Betty/Elisheva ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Hi all, I got a kick out of the great Hanukkah videos on You Tube today. Thanks for the link. Tonight I am ready a book called Light in the Darkness - Hanukkah and the Disciples of Yeshua by First Fruits of Zion. It was mostly written by our friend Daniel Lancaster. It confirms to me what G-d put on my heart yesterday about looking at this holiday as a reminder to resist and fight the greek mindset on our western culture. If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it. Let me quote just a section of it, if I may. "There is a battle going on today. As far as the Body of Messiah goes, the Hanukkah revolution has just begun. The return to Torah is not a fad. It is not an American or Israeli phenomenon. It is international. It can no longer be called "the Messianic Jewish movement" because it has outgrown that context. It is spreading everywhere, to every people, and it is unstoppable because it is biblical. It is a sweeping Hanukkah (rededication) of the Body of Messiah. And that is what we need. If those of us coming out of the church culture look honestly at ourselves and measure ourselves against God's law, we have to admit that we are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees. Our people have been thoroughly Hellenized. Whether we realize it or not, we are patrons of Greek thought, Greek philosophy, Greek theology, Greek values, Greek paganism. These are all characteristics deeply rooted among us in the church culture. our people have been thoroughly Hellenized since before the time of the Messiah. We are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees." "The Body of Messiah is likened unto a Temple. Individually and corporately, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Like the Holy Temple of Jerusalem in the days of the Maccabees, we have been defiled as well. Even in the days of Paul, the 'Mystery of Torah-lessness' was at work among the believers. Paul himself said so, and he referred to Anti-Christ as 'the Man of Torah-lessness.' If the 'Man of No-Torah' was at work among the believers even in the first century, how much more now!" "Consider the statutes Antiochus decreed for Israel. Look at his laws! You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah For many centuries, Christianity has been following these laws of Anthiochus - the laws of the abomination of desolation - instead of the Torah of God. Only in recent years have Torah-oriented communities of believers been allowed to exist. Two hundred and fifty years to three hundred years ago in Europe, a community of Torah-keeping believers would not have survived long because of pressure from the church. Nor would it have fared well in America two-hundred years ago. the Hanukkah revolution has only just begun." The meaning of Hanukkah is far more than candles, food, fun and games. It is a call to throw off the Hellenistic ways and return to Torah and the Ancient Paths. I want to be a Maccabee and I am glad that we have many Judah's leading the way. Hope your Hanukkah is as inspirational as ours. Shalom, Denny I On Dec 5, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hanoch, I am finally finding time to catch up. Next to your saga, this is wonderful but I am still behind in reading, so I will still discover more gems. I am passing this on to my other lists, Thanks for all your contributions. On Dec 4, 2007, at 6:57 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a sense of humor! :-) Hanoch Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) ---------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/37a8e41d/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 6 12:35:55 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:35:55 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] CD playing on IFN Message-ID: <120620071835.25520.4758410A000C2A29000063B022243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Baruch HaShem indeed! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Amazing, yes!!! I love it!!! I truly believe that music is the language of the soul. Sometimes music can touch a chord that nothing else can reach. The thoughts of so many people being blessed with that beautiful music sends chills all thru me! BARUCH HASHEM! From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 9:36 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] CD playing on IFN Thanks. Like I said, it's a most amazing thing to me. Rabbi Nachman is a very wise man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tammy & Bruce Croley : -------------- Hey John, I just heard you singing on Inspired Faith Radio. Sounds GREAT! Tammy It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-ds hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/34d3507b/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 6 12:43:16 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:43:16 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions Message-ID: <120620071843.14683.475842C2000B67FD0000395B22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Carin (my Wife) and I used to call ourselves Methepresbeteryardite Charismatholic Bapticostpalians. I'm glad I don't have a pidgen hole anymore, it was getting pretty crowded and hard to pronounce. ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hanukkah Sameach L'Culam (Happy Hanukkah to everyone), In my note to Bonnie last evening, I mentioned a pet peeve I had with the 'pigeon-hole' definitions my co-religionists seem to love to use to categorize each other. Most of you folks are probably aware of the garden variety terms: 'Orthodox', 'Conservative', 'Reform' and 'Reconstructionist'. You've probably even heard the terms, 'Ultra-Orthodox' and "Chassidic." But do you know that we're also plagued with the alphabet soup of: 'ConservaDox', 'Ortho-prax', 'Renewal,' 'Yeshivish,' 'Shomer Mitzvot,' 'Traditional,' 'Black Hat,' 'Modern Orthodox,' 'Centerist Orthodox,' and more that I could make you dizzy with! It's not much better in Israel, where it seems that people define themselves as Haredi ("Ultra Orthodox' - although there are both the Chassidic ones, and the non-Chassidic ones), 'Religious,' 'Masorti (traditional), and 'Hiloni' - which means 'secular.' Although how do you call someone who risks his or her life to defend the Land of Israel, 'secular?' But it doesn't stop there boys and girls, no sir - among the religious (NOT the Ultra groups), you have the 'Dati-Leumi' - the 'National Religious' who made up those amazing Jews who settled in YESHA - Judea, Samaria and Gaza (may it be returned to our control immediately). But now you also have something called, 'Haredi-Leumi' - more 'strict,' but still 'National' - it's enough to drive you INSANE! Did you know that there's an actual ideological difference between those guys that wear colorful knit kipot (yarmulkes) and those that wear all black? Did you know that among those that wear the black ones, there's a difference if it's 'velvet' or knit? You can spend weeks just learning all this nonsense. So, where am I going with all of this? I could just as easily pointed out the various Christian groups I've met, and how they define themselves based on various positions regarding Yeshua, and/or using the 'divine name.' Personally, I always try to avoid the 'Orthodox' label, even 'Modern Orthodox' - because I don't want anyone to see me as THE Orthodox guy they know, since I don't see myself as anyone's 'role model.' And that my personal views of things within Judaism are certainly not what anyone would consider a mainstream 'Orthodox' view. And besides, the Torah is perfect, those who attempt to observe it are not....always remember that, no matter what costume someone is wearing.... I noticed the difference of opinions relating to the term 'Gentile.' I actually have a friend, who believes himself to be a "Lost Triber," and only wants me to refer to him as a "Non-Jew," but not a 'Gentile.' In my own case, growing up, I was the Jew...when I went to Israel, I was the American. Among Americans in Israel, I became the New Yorker (which they loved pronouncing 'New Yawker'), among other New Yorkers, I'm the guy who grew up in the Bronx (something no one readily admits these days..). And when I began reading Mormon literature, I found out that they consider ME a Gentile! And what would you call the various people in this, and the UIWU lists? How many defnitions would you need to appropriately designate them? So what do all these terms mean, not a darn thing! I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably unnecessary! Adjective less in NYC, :-) Hanoch More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/9df2f39b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Dec 6 13:19:53 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:19:53 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue]Fork in the Road Our Journey In-Reply-To: <743532.12644.qm@web57104.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b701c8383c$fb3a8a10$653c66c9@bettygivin> Tammy, thanks for your response; I am so glad that you did. I think when each of us writes a post on this dialogue list, it goes without saying that anyone out there who finds something meaningful within it is most welcome and should be encouraged to respond. I am glad you liked the poem. .Our path is definitely not the most popular, but I believe it to be the one that HaShem has called us walk. May you and your family have a Hanukkah filled with many blessings! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:07 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue]Fork in the Road Our Journey Shalom Betty, I know that you addressed this to Denny, but I just had to respond. The poem is beautiful and so well describes this path that we are taking. While it may not be the most worn path.....it is the best path for me at this time. It would have certainly been easier to remain on the other well worn path, but once I found the not so popular path it simply captivated me. I can never turn back......never diminish.........I must continue to increase!!! Thanks Betty for sharing. Happy Hanukkak, Tammy Betty Givin wrote: Denny, Thanks, Denny for your response, and you are welcome as far as the encouragement goes. I think that is a lot of what this dialogue list is all about...studying, learning, sharing, living what we learn, and encouraging others along the way. I am not really sure how this change of heart comes about either; but according to Jeremiah, when we are searching for G-d with all our hearts, then we will find G-d. For me, the first thing that really hit hard was the Sabbath; from the time it first entered my mind, the pull was irristible...and once I saw it, I just couldn't understand how I had not seen it before...but that was only the beginning. Once I opened that gate in my mind, it was as it a dam had broken loose inside me and all around me...my life was forever changed; and you are right...there is no going back. Years ago, several of us who were on this path together used to have a saying, "there is no stopping on the bridge!" Brian, you and Joy Beth probably remember that. I agree with John here, it is definitely not backwards, maybe "back" to the path that was lost somewhere along the way...the Ancient Path...back to G-d and Torah. There is a big difference, and I am sure that you would agree, between going backwards and going "back" to retrieve something valued! The fork in the road is an excellent analogy as well. Robert Frost's often quoted poem, "The Road Not Taken," has long been one of my personal favorites...way before I discovered the Ancient Path; I think it fits so well here. Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, And sorry I could not travel both And be one traveler, long I stood And looked down one as far as I could To where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, And having perhaps the better claim, Because it was grassy and wanted wear; Though as for that the passing there Had worn them really about the same, And both that morning equally lay In leaves no step had trodden black. Oh, I kept the first for another day! Yet knowing how way leads on to way, I doubted if I should ever come back. I shall be telling this with a sigh Somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-- I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference. Years ago, Roger and I were driving along a country road one day, we noticed a clearing and what appeared to be "two roads" converging much like the one in this poem. We stopped the car, got out and walked along "the road less traveled" for awhile. We discussed along the way how it seemed we belonged on this road and how it fit our lives as we always seemed to be walking to the beat of a different drummer... and it truly has made all the difference. It is so good to see and to meet so many fellow travelers along the way! Hanukkah Sameach to you all! Betty/Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) I don't think it is backwards Denny. We all have found a fork in the road. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Denny Johnson Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:06:22 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Betty, I can only imagine how I might have reacted a couple of years ago. Probably would have been totally blind to my condition. Why is it that we have had this change of heart? It seems so improbable that we would even be considering this path. It's like we are going backwards compared to the church. That is the way many of our friends and some family members look at us. They just laugh and don't understand. But, come what may, we are on this path for good. There is no turning back now. We are just glad we are not alone. Thank you for your words of encouragement. Hanukkah Sameach to you and yours. Denny On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:49 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Denny, thanks for this. Hanukkah is indeed so much more than candles, food and games. I especially liked the quote regarding the commandments of Antiochus which are in direct opposition to HaShem's commandments.talk about "in your face!" You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah Seen like this, they really get to the point! I just wonder how they would come across to someone who might still be heavy into the Greek/Hellenistic lifestyle and not be aware of it. Hanukkah Sameach! Betty/Elisheva ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) Hi all, I got a kick out of the great Hanukkah videos on You Tube today. Thanks for the link. Tonight I am ready a book called Light in the Darkness - Hanukkah and the Disciples of Yeshua by First Fruits of Zion. It was mostly written by our friend Daniel Lancaster. It confirms to me what G-d put on my heart yesterday about looking at this holiday as a reminder to resist and fight the greek mindset on our western culture. If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it. Let me quote just a section of it, if I may. "There is a battle going on today. As far as the Body of Messiah goes, the Hanukkah revolution has just begun. The return to Torah is not a fad. It is not an American or Israeli phenomenon. It is international. It can no longer be called "the Messianic Jewish movement" because it has outgrown that context. It is spreading everywhere, to every people, and it is unstoppable because it is biblical. It is a sweeping Hanukkah (rededication) of the Body of Messiah. And that is what we need. If those of us coming out of the church culture look honestly at ourselves and measure ourselves against God's law, we have to admit that we are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees. Our people have been thoroughly Hellenized. Whether we realize it or not, we are patrons of Greek thought, Greek philosophy, Greek theology, Greek values, Greek paganism. These are all characteristics deeply rooted among us in the church culture. our people have been thoroughly Hellenized since before the time of the Messiah. We are like Israel in the days of the Maccabees." "The Body of Messiah is likened unto a Temple. Individually and corporately, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Like the Holy Temple of Jerusalem in the days of the Maccabees, we have been defiled as well. Even in the days of Paul, the 'Mystery of Torah-lessness' was at work among the believers. Paul himself said so, and he referred to Anti-Christ as 'the Man of Torah-lessness.' If the 'Man of No-Torah' was at work among the believers even in the first century, how much more now!" "Consider the statutes Antiochus decreed for Israel. Look at his laws! You shall profane the Sabbath You shall profane the festivals and holy days You shall set up idols You shall eat unclean animals You shall not circumcise your sons You shall forget the Torah For many centuries, Christianity has been following these laws of Anthiochus - the laws of the abomination of desolation - instead of the Torah of God. Only in recent years have Torah-oriented communities of believers been allowed to exist. Two hundred and fifty years to three hundred years ago in Europe, a community of Torah-keeping believers would not have survived long because of pressure from the church. Nor would it have fared well in America two-hundred years ago. the Hanukkah revolution has only just begun." The meaning of Hanukkah is far more than candles, food, fun and games. It is a call to throw off the Hellenistic ways and return to Torah and the Ancient Paths. I want to be a Maccabee and I am glad that we have many Judah's leading the way. Hope your Hanukkah is as inspirational as ours. Shalom, Denny I On Dec 5, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: Hanoch, I am finally finding time to catch up. Next to your saga, this is wonderful but I am still behind in reading, so I will still discover more gems. I am passing this on to my other lists, Thanks for all your contributions. On Dec 4, 2007, at 6:57 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a sense of humor! :-) Hanoch Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) ---------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 _____ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/65978a1a/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Dec 6 13:35:46 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:35:46 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions In-Reply-To: <8CA064943573F32-1720-4C39@mblk-d39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00c201c8383f$32c27900$653c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, thanks for this very introspective post, filled with wisdom. I really liked your last sentence in which you said," I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably unnecessary! " Speaking of labels in shirts, Roger cuts his out! I just thought you might enjoy that little tidbit of info. Smiling, :-) Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:02 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions Hanukkah Sameach L'Culam (Happy Hanukkah to everyone), In my note to Bonnie last evening, I mentioned a pet peeve I had with the 'pigeon-hole' definitions my co-religionists seem to love to use to categorize each other. Most of you folks are probably aware of the garden variety terms: 'Orthodox', 'Conservative', 'Reform' and 'Reconstructionist'. You've probably even heard the terms, 'Ultra-Orthodox' and "Chassidic." But do you know that we're also plagued with the alphabet soup of: 'ConservaDox', 'Ortho-prax', 'Renewal,' 'Yeshivish,' 'Shomer Mitzvot,' 'Traditional,' 'Black Hat,' 'Modern Orthodox,' 'Centerist Orthodox,' and more that I could make you dizzy with! It's not much better in Israel, where it seems that people define themselves as Haredi ("Ultra Orthodox' - although there are both the Chassidic ones, and the non-Chassidic ones), 'Religious,' 'Masorti (traditional), and 'Hiloni' - which means 'secular.' Although how do you call someone who risks his or her life to defend the Land of Israel, 'secular?' But it doesn't stop there boys and girls, no sir - among the religious (NOT the Ultra groups), you have the 'Dati-Leumi' - the 'National Religious' who made up those amazing Jews who settled in YESHA - Judea, Samaria and Gaza (may it be returned to our control immediately). But now you also have something called, 'Haredi-Leumi' - more 'strict,' but still 'National' - it's enough to drive you INSANE! Did you know that there's an actual ideological difference between those guys that wear colorful knit kipot (yarmulkes) and those that wear all black? Did you know that among those that wear the black ones, there's a difference if it's 'velvet' or knit? You can spend weeks just learning all this nonsense. So, where am I going with all of this? I could just as easily pointed out the various Christian groups I've met, and how they define themselves based on various positions regarding Yeshua, and/or using the 'divine name.' Personally, I always try to avoid the 'Orthodox' label, even 'Modern Orthodox' - because I don't want anyone to see me as THE Orthodox guy they know, since I don't see myself as anyone's 'role model.' And that my personal views of things within Judaism are certainly not what anyone would consider a mainstream 'Orthodox' view. And besides, the Torah is perfect, those who attempt to observe it are not....always remember that, no matter what costume someone is wearing.... I noticed the difference of opinions relating to the term 'Gentile.' I actually have a friend, who believes himself to be a "Lost Triber," and only wants me to refer to him as a "Non-Jew," but not a 'Gentile.' In my own case, growing up, I was the Jew...when I went to Israel, I was the American. Among Americans in Israel, I became the New Yorker (which they loved pronouncing 'New Yawker'), among other New Yorkers, I'm the guy who grew up in the Bronx (something no one readily admits these days..). And when I began reading Mormon literature, I found out that they consider ME a Gentile! And what would you call the various people in this, and the UIWU lists? How many defnitions would you need to appropriately designate them? So what do all these terms mean, not a darn thing! I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably unnecessary! Adjective less in NYC, :-) Hanoch _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/2d458c08/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Dec 6 13:39:21 2007 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:39:21 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions In-Reply-To: <120620071843.14683.475842C2000B67FD0000395B22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <120620071843.14683.475842C2000B67FD0000395B22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <8CA0656D54945E4-E9C-8315@FWM-D13.sysops.aol.com> This is so great John, I love it! ?????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 1:43 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions Carin (my Wife) and I used to call ourselves Methepresbeteryardite Charismatholic Bapticostpalians. ? I'm glad I don't have a pidgen hole anymore, it was getting pretty crowded and hard to pronounce. ? ;-{)} ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hanukkah Sameach L'Culam (Happy Hanukkah to everyone), ??? In my note to Bonnie last evening, I mentioned a pet peeve I had with the 'pigeon-hole' definitions my co-religionists seem to love to use to categorize each other.? Most of you folks are probably aware of the garden variety terms: 'Orthodox', 'Conservative', 'Reform' and 'Reconstructionist'.? You've probably even heard the terms, 'Ultra-Orthodox' and "Chassidic."? But do you know that we're also plagued with the alphabet soup of: 'ConservaDox', 'Ortho-prax', 'Renewal,' 'Yeshivish,' 'Shomer Mitzvot,' 'Traditional,' 'Black Hat,' 'Modern Orthodox,' 'Centerist Orthodox,' and more that I could make you dizzy with!? It's not much better in?Israel, where it seems that?people define themselves as Haredi ("Ult ra Orthodox' - although there are both the?Chassidic ones, and the non-Chassidic ones), 'Religious,' 'Masorti (traditional), and 'Hiloni' - which?means 'secular.'? Although how do you?call someone who risks his or her life to?defend the Land of Israel, 'secular?'?? ???But it doesn't stop there boys and girls, no sir - among the religious (NOT the Ultra groups), you have the 'Dati-Leumi' - the 'National Religious' who made up those amazing Jews who settled in YESHA - Judea, Samaria and Gaza (may it be returned to our control immediately).? But now you also have something?called, 'Haredi-Leumi' - more 'strict,' but still 'National' - it's enough to drive you INSANE!? ?? Did you know that there's an actual ideological difference between those guys that wear colorful knit kipot (yarmulkes) and those that wear all black?? Did you know that among those that wear the black ones, there's a difference if it's 'velvet' or knit?? You can spend weeks just learning all this nonsense.? ?? So, where am I going with all of this?? I could just as easily pointed out the various Christian groups I've met, and how they define themselves based on various positions regarding Yeshua, and/or using the 'divine name.' ??? Personally, I always try to avoid the 'Orthodox' label, even 'Modern Orthodox' - because I don't want anyone to see me as THE Orthodox guy they know, since I don't see myself as anyone's 'role model.'? And that my personal views of things within Judaism are certainly not what anyone would consider a mainstream 'Orthodox' view.? And besides, the Torah is perfect, those who attempt to observe it are not....always remember that, no matter what costume someone is wearing.... ??? I noticed the difference of opinions relating to the term 'Gentile.'? I actually have a fri end, who believes himself to be a "Lost Triber," and only wants me to refer to him as a "Non-Jew," but not a 'Gentile.'? ?? In my own case, growing up, I was the Jew...when I went to Israel, I was the American.? Among Americans in Israel, I became the New Yorker (which they loved pronouncing 'New Yawker'), among other New Yorkers, I'm the guy who grew up in the Bronx (something no one readily admits these days..).? And when I began reading Mormon literature, I found out that they consider ME a Gentile! ?? And what would you call the various people in this, and the UIWU lists?? How many defnitions would you need to appropriately designate them??? So what do all these terms mean, not a darn thing!?? ???I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably unnecessary! ?? Adjective less in NYC,&nbs p; :-)? ?????????????? Hanoch More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/ac5ad843/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Dec 6 13:46:20 2007 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:46:20 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions In-Reply-To: <120620071843.14683.475842C2000B67FD0000395B22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <00cd01c83840$acca9880$653c66c9@bettygivin> I knew you had been around the block a few times, John, but that's definitely a mouthful! I think I may have figured out yours and Carin's roots.Methodist, Presbyterian, Charismatic, Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, and Episcopalian! Is that right? Not quite sure about the "yardite" though. Shalom, Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions Carin (my Wife) and I used to call ourselves Methepresbeteryardite Charismatholic Bapticostpalians. I'm glad I don't have a pidgen hole anymore, it was getting pretty crowded and hard to pronounce. ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hanukkah Sameach L'Culam (Happy Hanukkah to everyone), In my note to Bonnie last evening, I mentioned a pet peeve I had with the 'pigeon-hole' definitions my co-religionists seem to love to use to categorize each other. Most of you folks are probably aware of the garden variety terms: 'Orthodox', 'Conservative', 'Reform' and 'Reconstructionist'. You've probably even heard the terms, 'Ultra-Orthodox' and "Chassidic." But do you know that we're also plagued with the alphabet soup of: 'ConservaDox', 'Ortho-prax', 'Renewal,' 'Yeshivish,' 'Shomer Mitzvot,' 'Traditional,' 'Black Hat,' 'Modern Orthodox,' 'Centerist Orthodox,' and more that I could make you dizzy with! It's not much better in Israel, where it seems that people define themselves as Haredi ("Ult ra Orthodox' - although there are both the Chassidic ones, and the non-Chassidic ones), 'Religious,' 'Masorti (traditional), and 'Hiloni' - which means 'secular.' Although how do you call someone who risks his or her life to defend the Land of Israel, 'secular?' But it doesn't stop there boys and girls, no sir - among the religious (NOT the Ultra groups), you have the 'Dati-Leumi' - the 'National Religious' who made up those amazing Jews who settled in YESHA - Judea, Samaria and Gaza (may it be returned to our control immediately). But now you also have something called, 'Haredi-Leumi' - more 'strict,' but still 'National' - it's enough to drive you INSANE! Did you know that there's an actual ideological difference between those guys that wear colorful knit kipot (yarmulkes) and those that wear all black? Did you know that among those that wear the black ones, there's a difference if it's 'velvet' or knit? You can spend weeks just learning all this nonsense. So, where am I going with all of this? I could just as easily pointed out the various Christian groups I've met, and how they define themselves based on various positions regarding Yeshua, and/or using the 'divine name.' Personally, I always try to avoid the 'Orthodox' label, even 'Modern Orthodox' - because I don't want anyone to see me as THE Orthodox guy they know, since I don't see myself as anyone's 'role model.' And that my personal views of things within Judaism are certainly not what anyone would consider a mainstream 'Orthodox' view. And besides, the Torah is perfect, those who attempt to observe it are not....always remember that, no matter what costume someone is wearing.... I noticed the difference of opinions relating to the term 'Gentile.' I actually have a fri end, who believes himself to be a "Lost Triber," and only wants me to refer to him as a "Non-Jew," but not a 'Gentile.' In my own case, growing up, I was the Jew...when I went to Israel, I was the American. Among Americans in Israel, I became the New Yorker (which they loved pronouncing 'New Yawker'), among other New Yorkers, I'm the guy who grew up in the Bronx (something no one readily admits these days..). And when I began reading Mormon literature, I found out that they consider ME a Gentile! And what would you call the various people in this, and the UIWU lists? How many defnitions would you need to appropriately designate them? So what do all these terms mean, not a darn thing! I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably unnecessary! Adjective less in NYC,&nbs p; :-) Hanoch _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/6382f0f4/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Thu Dec 6 13:50:00 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:50:00 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue]Fork in the Road Our Journey In-Reply-To: <00b701c8383c$fb3a8a10$653c66c9@bettygivin> References: <00b701c8383c$fb3a8a10$653c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <298F9242-DB90-4190-BA44-C2647549C7B8@alaska.com> Betty, Your assessment of how this poem applies to what is happening with the people in this group is very meaningful and good for me. Thank you for that openness, wisdom and sharing. I am forwarding this one to my Rebbe as I do with others that touch my heart, are inspirational or informational. I wish he would join but he is very busy with other important things. Bonnie On Dec 6, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Betty Givin wrote: > Tammy, thanks for your response; I am so glad that you did. I > think when each of us writes a post on this dialogue list, it goes > without saying that anyone out there who finds something meaningful > within it is most welcome and should be encouraged to respond. I > am glad you liked the poem. .Our path is definitely not the most > popular, but I believe it to be the one that HaShem has called us > walk. May you and your family have a Hanukkah filled with many > blessings! Betty/Elisheva > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:07 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue]Fork in the Road Our Journey > > > > Shalom Betty, > I know that you addressed this to Denny, but I just had to > respond. The poem is beautiful and so well describes this path > that we are taking. While it may not be the most worn path.....it > is the best path for me at this time. It would have certainly been > easier to remain on the other well worn path, but once I found the > not so popular path it simply captivated me. I can never turn > back......never diminish.........I must continue to increase!!! > Thanks Betty for sharing. > Happy Hanukkak, > Tammy > > Betty Givin wrote: > > Denny, > > > > Thanks, Denny for your response, and you are welcome as far as the > encouragement goes. I think that is a lot of what this dialogue > list is all about...studying, learning, sharing, living what we > learn, and encouraging others along the way. > > > > I am not really sure how this change of heart comes about either; > but according to Jeremiah, when we are searching for G-d with all > our hearts, then we will find G-d. For me, the first thing that > really hit hard was the Sabbath; from the time it first entered my > mind, the pull was irristible...and once I saw it, I just couldn't > understand how I had not seen it before...but that was only the > beginning. Once I opened that gate in my mind, it was as it a dam > had broken loose inside me and all around me...my life was forever > changed; and you are right...there is no going back. Years ago, > several of us who were on this path together used to have a saying, > "there is no stopping on the bridge!" Brian, you and Joy Beth > probably remember that. > > > > I agree with John here, it is definitely not backwards, maybe > "back" to the path that was lost somewhere along the way...the > Ancient Path...back to G-d and Torah. There is a big difference, > and I am sure that you would agree, between going backwards and > going "back" to retrieve something valued! > > > > The fork in the road is an excellent analogy as well. Robert > Frost's often quoted poem, "The Road Not Taken," has long been one > of my personal favorites...way before I discovered the Ancient > Path; I think it fits so well here. > > > > > > Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, > > And sorry I could not travel both > > And be one traveler, long I stood > > And looked down one as far as I could > > To where it bent in the undergrowth; > > > > Then took the other, as just as fair, > > And having perhaps the better claim, > > Because it was grassy and wanted wear; > > Though as for that the passing there > > Had worn them really about the same, > > > > And both that morning equally lay > > In leaves no step had trodden black. > > Oh, I kept the first for another day! > > Yet knowing how way leads on to way, > > I doubted if I should ever come back. > > > > I shall be telling this with a sigh > > Somewhere ages and ages hence: > > Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-- > > I took the one less traveled by, > > And that has made all the difference. > > > > > > Years ago, Roger and I were driving along a country road one day, > we noticed a clearing and what appeared to be "two roads" > converging much like the one in this poem. We stopped the car, got > out and walked along "the road less traveled" for awhile. We > discussed along the way how it seemed we belonged on this road and > how it fit our lives as we always seemed to be walking to the beat > of a different drummer... and it truly has made all the > difference. It is so good to see and to meet so many fellow > travelers along the way! > > > > Hanukkah Sameach to you all! > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:28 PM > > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) > > > > I don't think it is backwards Denny. We all have found a fork in > the road. > > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Denny Johnson > > > > Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:06:22 > > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) > > > > > > Betty, > > > > > > I can only imagine how I might have reacted a couple of years ago. > Probably would have been totally blind to my condition. Why is it > that we have had this change of heart? It seems so improbable that > we would even be considering this path. It's like we are going > backwards compared to the church. That is the way many of our > friends and some family members look at us. They just laugh and > don't understand. But, come what may, we are on this path for good. > There is no turning back now. We are just glad we are not alone. > Thank you for your words of encouragement. > > > > > > Hanukkah Sameach to you and yours. > > > > > > Denny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:49 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > > > > > > > > Denny, thanks for this. Hanukkah is indeed so much more than > candles, food and games. > > > > I especially liked the quote regarding the commandments of > Antiochus which are in direct opposition to HaShem?s commandments? > talk about ?in your face!? > > > > You shall profane the Sabbath > > You shall profane the festivals and holy days > > You shall set up idols > > You shall eat unclean animals > > You shall not circumcise your sons > > You shall forget the Torah > > > > Seen like this, they really get to the point! I just wonder how > they would come across to someone who might still be heavy into the > Greek/Hellenistic lifestyle and not be aware of it. > > > > Hanukkah Sameach! > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------- > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org bounces at rootsoffaith.org> [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org bounces at rootsoffaith.org> ] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:28 PM > > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > I got a kick out of the great Hanukkah videos on You Tube today. > Thanks for the link. > > > > Tonight I am ready a book called Light in the Darkness - Hanukkah > and the Disciples of Yeshua by First Fruits of Zion. It was mostly > written by our friend Daniel Lancaster. It confirms to me what G-d > put on my heart yesterday about looking at this holiday as a > reminder to resist and fight the greek mindset on our western > culture. If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it. Let > me quote just a section of it, if I may. > > > > > > > > "There is a battle going on today. As far as the Body of Messiah > goes, the Hanukkah revolution has just begun. The return to Torah > is not a fad. It is not an American or Israeli phenomenon. It is > international. It can no longer be called "the Messianic Jewish > movement" because it has outgrown that context. It is spreading > everywhere, to every people, and it is unstoppable because it is > biblical. It is a sweeping Hanukkah (rededication) of the Body of > Messiah. And that is what we need. If those of us coming out of the > church culture look honestly at ourselves and measure ourselves > against God's law, we have to admit that we are like Israel in the > days of the Maccabees. Our people have been thoroughly Hellenized. > Whether we realize it or not, we are patrons of Greek thought, > Greek philosophy, Greek theology, Greek values, Greek paganism. > These are all characteristics deeply rooted among us in the church > culture. our people have been thoroughly Hellenized since before > the time of the Messiah. We are like Israel in the days of the > Maccabees." > > > > > > > > "The Body of Messiah is likened unto a Temple. Individually and > corporately, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Like the Holy > Temple of Jerusalem in the days of the Maccabees, we have been > defiled as well. Even in the days of Paul, the 'Mystery of Torah- > lessness' was at work among the believers. Paul himself said so, > and he referred to Anti-Christ as 'the Man of Torah-lessness.' If > the 'Man of No-Torah' was at work among the believers even in the > first century, how much more now!" > > > > > > > > "Consider the statutes Antiochus decreed for Israel. Look at his laws! > > > > > > > > You shall profane the Sabbath > > > > You shall profane the festivals and holy days > > > > You shall set up idols > > > > You shall eat unclean animals > > > > You shall not circumcise your sons > > > > You shall forget the Torah > > > > > > > > For many centuries, Christianity has been following these laws of > Anthiochus - the laws of the abomination of desolation - instead of > the Torah of God. Only in recent years have Torah-oriented > communities of believers been allowed to exist. Two hundred and > fifty years to three hundred years ago in Europe, a community of > Torah-keeping believers would not have survived long because of > pressure from the church. Nor would it have fared well in America > two-hundred years ago. the Hanukkah revolution has only just begun." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The meaning of Hanukkah is far more than candles, food, fun and > games. It is a call to throw off the Hellenistic ways and return to > Torah and the Ancient Paths. > > > > I want to be a Maccabee and I am glad that we have many Judah's > leading the way. > > > > > > > > Hope your Hanukkah is as inspirational as ours. > > > > > > > > Shalom, > > > > Denny > > > > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 5, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Bonnie Nelson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hanoch, > > I am finally finding time to catch up. Next to your saga, this is > wonderful but I am still behind in reading, so I will still > discover more gems. I am passing this on to my other lists, Thanks > for all your contributions. > > > > > > On Dec 4, 2007, at 6:57 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > This is Adam Sandler's 1st Hanukkah song - this proves I have a > sense of humor! :-) > > > > Hanoch > > > > Click here: YouTube - The Chanukah Song (Part 1) www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwYQBV66rbM> > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------- > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products > NCID=aoltop00030000000001> and top money wasters money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money? > NCID=aoltop00030000000002> of 2007. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I > place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His > will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not > things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires > otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." > > Rabbi > Nachman's Wisdom 2 > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/a8cdd7fe/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Thu Dec 6 13:51:22 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:51:22 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions In-Reply-To: <8CA0656D54945E4-E9C-8315@FWM-D13.sysops.aol.com> References: <120620071843.14683.475842C2000B67FD0000395B22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <8CA0656D54945E4-E9C-8315@FWM-D13.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <206DD33D-A9D6-4718-870B-199F2CF4F9E0@alaska.com> ditto On Dec 6, 2007, at 10:39 AM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: > This is so great John, I love it! > > Hanoch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 1:43 pm > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions > > Carin (my Wife) and I used to call ourselves Methepresbeteryardite > Charismatholic Bapticostpalians. > > I'm glad I don't have a pidgen hole anymore, it was getting pretty > crowded and hard to pronounce. > > ;-{)} > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: > -------------- > > Hanukkah Sameach L'Culam (Happy Hanukkah to everyone), > > In my note to Bonnie last evening, I mentioned a pet peeve I > had with the 'pigeon-hole' definitions my co-religionists seem to > love to use to categorize each other. Most of you folks are > probably aware of the garden variety terms: 'Orthodox', > 'Conservative', 'Reform' and 'Reconstructionist'. You've probably > even heard the terms, 'Ultra-Orthodox' and "Chassidic." But do you > know that we're also plagued with the alphabet soup of: > 'ConservaDox', 'Ortho-prax', 'Renewal,' 'Yeshivish,' 'Shomer > Mitzvot,' 'Traditional,' 'Black Hat,' 'Modern Orthodox,' 'Centerist > Orthodox,' and more that I could make you dizzy with! It's not > much better in Israel, where it seems that people define themselves > as Haredi ("Ult ra Orthodox' - although there are both the > Chassidic ones, and the non-Chassidic ones), 'Religious,' 'Masorti > (traditional), and 'Hiloni' - which means 'secular.' Although how > do you call someone who risks his or her life to defend the Land of > Israel, 'secular?' > > But it doesn't stop there boys and girls, no sir - among the > religious (NOT the Ultra groups), you have the 'Dati-Leumi' - the > 'National Religious' who made up those amazing Jews who settled in > YESHA - Judea, Samaria and Gaza (may it be returned to our control > immediately). But now you also have something called, 'Haredi- > Leumi' - more 'strict,' but still 'National' - it's enough to drive > you INSANE! > > Did you know that there's an actual ideological difference > between those guys that wear colorful knit kipot (yarmulkes) and > those that wear all black? Did you know that among those that wear > the black ones, there's a difference if it's 'velvet' or knit? You > can spend weeks just learning all this nonsense. > > So, where am I going with all of this? I could just as easily > pointed out the various Christian groups I've met, and how they > define themselves based on various positions regarding Yeshua, and/ > or using the 'divine name.' > > Personally, I always try to avoid the 'Orthodox' label, even > 'Modern Orthodox' - because I don't want anyone to see me as THE > Orthodox guy they know, since I don't see myself as anyone's 'role > model.' And that my personal views of things within Judaism are > certainly not what anyone would consider a mainstream 'Orthodox' > view. And besides, the Torah is perfect, those who attempt to > observe it are not....always remember that, no matter what costume > someone is wearing.... > > I noticed the difference of opinions relating to the term > 'Gentile.' I actually have a fri end, who believes himself to be a > "Lost Triber," and only wants me to refer to him as a "Non-Jew," > but not a 'Gentile.' > > In my own case, growing up, I was the Jew...when I went to > Israel, I was the American. Among Americans in Israel, I became > the New Yorker (which they loved pronouncing 'New Yawker'), among > other New Yorkers, I'm the guy who grew up in the Bronx (something > no one readily admits these days..). And when I began reading > Mormon literature, I found out that they consider ME a Gentile! > > And what would you call the various people in this, and the UIWU > lists? How many defnitions would you need to appropriately > designate them? So what do all these terms mean, not a darn thing! > > I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an > adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably > unnecessary! > > Adjective less in NYC,&nbs p; :-) > Hanoch > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/7cef62a5/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 6 14:12:57 2007 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:12:57 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions Message-ID: <120620072012.1565.475857C8000DAB560000061D22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> The Vineyard, our last excursion (after being out of church altogether for for about 10 years). This bunch was started by John Wimber years ago, we kinda got into a rogue congregation (without really knowing much about the movement at first) because we liked the family atmosphere. But the pastor decided to rectify that, so we left. You got the rest Betty. ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- I knew you had been around the block a few times, John, but that?s definitely a mouthful! I think I may have figured out yours and Carin?s roots?Methodist, Presbyterian, Charismatic, Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, and Episcopalian! Is that right? Not quite sure about the ?yardite? though. Shalom, Betty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions Carin (my Wife) and I used to call ourselves Methepresbeteryardite Charismatholic Bapticostpalians. I'm glad I don't have a pidgen hole anymore, it was getting pretty crowded and hard to pronounce. ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hanukkah Sameach L'Culam (Happy Hanukkah to everyone), In my note to Bonnie last evening, I mentioned a pet peeve I had with the 'pigeon-hole' definitions my co-religionists seem to love to use to categorize each other. Most of you folks are probably aware of the garden variety terms: 'Orthodox', 'Conservative', 'Reform' and 'Reconstructionist'. You've probably even heard the terms, 'Ultra-Orthodox' and "Chassidic." But do you know that we're also plagued with the alphabet soup of: 'ConservaDox', 'Ortho-prax', 'Renewal,' 'Yeshivish,' 'Shomer Mitzvot,' 'Traditional,' 'Black Hat,' 'Modern Orthodox,' 'Centerist Orthodox,' and more that I could make you dizzy with! It's not much better in Israel, where it seems that people define themselves as Haredi ("Ult ra Orthodox' - although there are both the Chassidic ones, and the non-Chassidic ones), 'Religious,' 'Masorti (traditional), and 'Hiloni' - which means 'secular.' Although how do you call someone who risks his or her life to defend the Land of Israel, 'secular?' But it doesn't stop there boys and girls, no sir - among the religious (NOT the Ultra groups), you have the 'Dati-Leumi' - the 'National Religious' who made up those amazing Jews who settled in YESHA - Judea, Samaria and Gaza (may it be returned to our control immediately). But now you also have something called, 'Haredi-Leumi' - more 'strict,' but still 'National' - it's enough to drive you INSANE! Did you know that there's an actual ideological difference between those guys that wear colorful knit kipot (yarmulkes) and those that wear all black? Did you know that among those that wear the black ones, there's a difference if it's 'velvet' or knit? You can spend weeks just learning all this nonsense. So, where am I going with all of this? I could just as easily pointed out the various Christian groups I've met, and how they define themselves based on various positions regarding Yeshua, and/or using the 'divine name.' Personally, I always try to avoid the 'Orthodox' label, even 'Modern Orthodox' - because I don't want anyone to see me as THE Orthodox guy they know, since I don't see myself as anyone's 'role model.' And that my personal views of things within Judaism are certainly not what anyone would consider a mainstream 'Orthodox' view. And besides, the Torah is perfect, those who attempt to observe it are not....always remember that, no matter what costume someone is wearing.... I noticed the difference of opinions relating to the term 'Gentile.' I actually have a fri end, who believes himself to be a "Lost Triber," and only wants me to refer to him as a "Non-Jew," but not a 'Gentile.' In my own case, growing up, I was the Jew...when I went to Israel, I was the American. Among Americans in Israel, I became the New Yorker (which they loved pronouncing 'New Yawker'), among other New Yorkers, I'm the guy who grew up in the Bronx (something no one readily admits these days..). And when I began reading Mormon literature, I found out that they consider ME a Gentile! And what would you call the various people in this, and the UIWU lists? How many defnitions would you need to appropriately designate them? So what do all these terms mean, not a darn thing! I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably unnecessary! Adjective less in NYC,&nbs p; :-) Hanoch More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/cc443ced/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Thu Dec 6 14:25:54 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:25:54 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] faith in Action Message-ID: Hanoch, Question/issue: I remember in one of your saga installments that you got some kind of Health degree. Because my son and I both have had lifetime disabilities as well as chronic health conditions, getting equitable quality health care for ALL is a top priority for us. Since this is once again a top agenda priority in the Presidential campaigning, your thoughts would be appreciated about... candidates, issues, whatever. One of the things I love most about most of my many new Jewish friends is that they LIVE their faith, even when they say they don't and say they are not observant. Not one of them has ever said to me "I don't talk about religion or politics," like you hear from so many non-Jews. Again much thanks. Bonnie From tbear001 at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 6 15:42:19 2007 From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net (roy landry) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 15:42:19 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions In-Reply-To: <00c201c8383f$32c27900$653c66c9@bettygivin> References: <8CA064943573F32-1720-4C39@mblk-d39.sysops.aol.com> <00c201c8383f$32c27900$653c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <002001c83850$e13b05e0$6402a8c0@roysoffice> Hanoch, I have to say you have really exposed me to terms and ideas I have never heard before. I just looked up YESHA. Thanks for your Saga. It opened my eyes to things I have heard about and thought about but did not really know anyone associated with them. As a young Christian I use to wonder what it must be like to grow up Jewish (yes I am strange that way). My father told me he dated a Jewish girl and quit dating her because of family and friends on both sides. He said he really liked her and if things in the 1940's had been different there is no telling what may have happened. I will read the Your Saga several more times to catch the nuggets I missed the first time. On this last post of yours that I read, l found it strange that I know many people want to know the one true God. But they will only listen if it comes from one of their labels that they are comfortable with. If it is not preceded as coming from the appropriate label they hear like and attorney who has a position to defend. In Christianity the question is which denomination/belief is speaking. As a young man some of my friends would almost come to blows over whose view should be accepted (that seemed odd to me). I have some Muslim friends who believe in the God who created the heavens and the earth. I wonder if there will ever be peace between those who desire to follow the God of the heavens and the earth. The bigger question is am I one of those who put up the walls/labels? Two things I have long sought to understand and acquire are peace and rest. Thanks Roy _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 1:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions Hanoch, thanks for this very introspective post, filled with wisdom. I really liked your last sentence in which you said," I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably unnecessary! " Speaking of labels in shirts, Roger cuts his out! I just thought you might enjoy that little tidbit of info. Smiling, :-) Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:02 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions Hanukkah Sameach L'Culam (Happy Hanukkah to everyone), In my note to Bonnie last evening, I mentioned a pet peeve I had with the 'pigeon-hole' definitions my co-religionists seem to love to use to categorize each other. Most of you folks are probably aware of the garden variety terms: 'Orthodox', 'Conservative', 'Reform' and 'Reconstructionist'. You've probably even heard the terms, 'Ultra-Orthodox' and "Chassidic." But do you know that we're also plagued with the alphabet soup of: 'ConservaDox', 'Ortho-prax', 'Renewal,' 'Yeshivish,' 'Shomer Mitzvot,' 'Traditional,' 'Black Hat,' 'Modern Orthodox,' 'Centerist Orthodox,' and more that I could make you dizzy with! It's not much better in Israel, where it seems that people define themselves as Haredi ("Ultra Orthodox' - although there are both the Chassidic ones, and the non-Chassidic ones), 'Religious,' 'Masorti (traditional), and 'Hiloni' - which means 'secular.' Although how do you call someone who risks his or her life to defend the Land of Israel, 'secular?' But it doesn't stop there boys and girls, no sir - among the religious (NOT the Ultra groups), you have the 'Dati-Leumi' - the 'National Religious' who made up those amazing Jews who settled in YESHA - Judea, Samaria and Gaza (may it be returned to our control immediately). But now you also have something called, 'Haredi-Leumi' - more 'strict,' but still 'National' - it's enough to drive you INSANE! Did you know that there's an actual ideological difference between those guys that wear colorful knit kipot (yarmulkes) and those that wear all black? Did you know that among those that wear the black ones, there's a difference if it's 'velvet' or knit? You can spend weeks just learning all this nonsense. So, where am I going with all of this? I could just as easily pointed out the various Christian groups I've met, and how they define themselves based on various positions regarding Yeshua, and/or using the 'divine name.' Personally, I always try to avoid the 'Orthodox' label, even 'Modern Orthodox' - because I don't want anyone to see me as THE Orthodox guy they know, since I don't see myself as anyone's 'role model.' And that my personal views of things within Judaism are certainly not what anyone would consider a mainstream 'Orthodox' view. And besides, the Torah is perfect, those who attempt to observe it are not....always remember that, no matter what costume someone is wearing.... I noticed the difference of opinions relating to the term 'Gentile.' I actually have a friend, who believes himself to be a "Lost Triber," and only wants me to refer to him as a "Non-Jew," but not a 'Gentile.' In my own case, growing up, I was the Jew...when I went to Israel, I was the American. Among Americans in Israel, I became the New Yorker (which they loved pronouncing 'New Yawker'), among other New Yorkers, I'm the guy who grew up in the Bronx (something no one readily admits these days..). And when I began reading Mormon literature, I found out that they consider ME a Gentile! And what would you call the various people in this, and the UIWU lists? How many defnitions would you need to appropriately designate them? So what do all these terms mean, not a darn thing! I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably unnecessary! Adjective less in NYC, :-) Hanoch _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/3641888d/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 15:58:02 2007 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:58:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions In-Reply-To: <8CA064943573F32-1720-4C39@mblk-d39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <217394.99158.qm@web57112.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hanoch and all, I also don't like labels. If fact I wouldn't know what label to put on myself if I had too! I guess that I am simply a "G-d Fearer". What I believe about and feel for G-d is stronger than ever, but I have more questions now than I have answers where Yeshua is concerned. I came from a background (Baptist and Pentecostal) where it was just assumed that all there believed that Yeshua was G-d. It was never discussed...........all just assumed that everyone believed the same. When I left the church and found a "messianic" group to associate with, I never expected it to be an issue but it was. If you didn't absolutely believe that Yeshua was G-d then maybe you didn't believe that he was Messiah and so you were longer welcome. Bruce and I saw this happening in the group and decided to leave. In the months since our departure from the group, I have studied and studied and the more I study the more questions that I have. I am not discouraged.......just sometimes I do feel lonely. It would be nice to have a group to fellowship with, but I feel that this could be the reason I found Roots of Faith and this dialogue group. I daily thank HaShem for our little group. Shalom, Tammy youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: Hanukkah Sameach L'Culam (Happy Hanukkah to everyone), In my note to Bonnie last evening, I mentioned a pet peeve I had with the 'pigeon-hole' definitions my co-religionists seem to love to use to categorize each other. Most of you folks are probably aware of the garden variety terms: 'Orthodox', 'Conservative', 'Reform' and 'Reconstructionist'. You've probably even heard the terms, 'Ultra-Orthodox' and "Chassidic." But do you know that we're also plagued with the alphabet soup of: 'ConservaDox', 'Ortho-prax', 'Renewal,' 'Yeshivish,' 'Shomer Mitzvot,' 'Traditional,' 'Black Hat,' 'Modern Orthodox,' 'Centerist Orthodox,' and more that I could make you dizzy with! It's not much better in Israel, where it seems that people define themselves as Haredi ("Ultra Orthodox' - although there are both the Chassidic ones, and the non-Chassidic ones), 'Religious,' 'Masorti (traditional), and 'Hiloni' - which means 'secular.' Although how do you call someone who risks his or her life to defend the Land of Israel, 'secular?' But it doesn't stop there boys and girls, no sir - among the religious (NOT the Ultra groups), you have the 'Dati-Leumi' - the 'National Religious' who made up those amazing Jews who settled in YESHA - Judea, Samaria and Gaza (may it be returned to our control immediately). But now you also have something called, 'Haredi-Leumi' - more 'strict,' but still 'National' - it's enough to drive you INSANE! Did you know that there's an actual ideological difference between those guys that wear colorful knit kipot (yarmulkes) and those that wear all black? Did you know that among those that wear the black ones, there's a difference if it's 'velvet' or knit? You can spend weeks just learning all this nonsense. So, where am I going with all of this? I could just as easily pointed out the various Christian groups I've met, and how they define themselves based on various positions regarding Yeshua, and/or using the 'divine name.' Personally, I always try to avoid the 'Orthodox' label, even 'Modern Orthodox' - because I don't want anyone to see me as THE Orthodox guy they know, since I don't see myself as anyone's 'role model.' And that my personal views of things within Judaism are certainly not what anyone would consider a mainstream 'Orthodox' view. And besides, the Torah is perfect, those who attempt to observe it are not....always remember that, no matter what costume someone is wearing.... I noticed the difference of opinions relating to the term 'Gentile.' I actually have a friend, who believes himself to be a "Lost Triber," and only wants me to refer to him as a "Non-Jew," but not a 'Gentile.' In my own case, growing up, I was the Jew...when I went to Israel, I was the American. Among Americans in Israel, I became the New Yorker (which they loved pronouncing 'New Yawker'), among other New Yorkers, I'm the guy who grew up in the Bronx (something no one readily admits these days..). And when I began reading Mormon literature, I found out that they consider ME a Gentile! And what would you call the various people in this, and the UIWU lists? How many defnitions would you need to appropriately designate them? So what do all these terms mean, not a darn thing! I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably unnecessary! Adjective less in NYC, :-) Hanoch --------------------------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/27be77b8/attachment.html From b.nelson at alaska.com Thu Dec 6 17:54:15 2007 From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:54:15 -0900 Subject: [Dialogue] Muslim friends In-Reply-To: <002001c83850$e13b05e0$6402a8c0@roysoffice> References: <8CA064943573F32-1720-4C39@mblk-d39.sysops.aol.com> <00c201c8383f$32c27900$653c66c9@bettygivin> <002001c83850$e13b05e0$6402a8c0@roysoffice> Message-ID: <40F99A3B-2619-4669-8672-946ED0BA583A@alaska.com> > Hi Roy, > I was so glad to read you have Muslim friends. So do I, and it really helps me that they let me check in with them on all kinds of issues, as my reality truth check; and so that we all can keep working together for Peace and "follow the God of the heavens and the earth," as you said. YES. And you bring up REST. Learning about Shabbot from the Jewish traditions, regardless of their labels, has been so valuable for helping me make connection with God, more than all the reading of scriptures or worship services. Trying to live Kosher will be my next challenge. Bonnie On Dec 6, 2007, at 12:42 PM, roy landry wrote: > I have to say you have really exposed me to terms and ideas I have > never heard before. I just looked up YESHA. Thanks for your > Saga. It opened my eyes to things I have heard about and thought > about but did not really know anyone associated with them. As a > young Christian I use to wonder what it must be like to grow up > Jewish (yes I am strange that way). My father told me he dated a > Jewish girl and quit dating her because of family and friends on > both sides. He said he really liked her and if things in the > 1940?s had been different there is no telling what may have > happened. I will read the Your Saga several more times to catch > the nuggets I missed the first time. > > > > On this last post of yours that I read, l found it strange that I > know many people want to know the one true God. But they will only > listen if it comes from one of their labels that they are > comfortable with. If it is not preceded as coming from the > appropriate label they hear like and attorney who has a position to > defend. In Christianity the question is which denomination/belief > is speaking. As a young man some of my friends would almost come > to blows over whose view should be accepted (that seemed odd to > me). I have some Muslim friends who believe in the God who created > the heavens and the earth. I wonder if there will ever be peace > between those who desire to follow the God of the heavens and the > earth. > > > > The bigger question is am I one of those who put up the walls/ > labels? Two things I have long sought to understand and acquire > are peace and rest. > > > > Thanks > > Roy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/63ba00cc/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 18:39:12 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 19:39:12 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions In-Reply-To: <8CA064943573F32-1720-4C39@mblk-d39.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA064943573F32-1720-4C39@mblk-d39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: In the spirit of "answering a question with a question" I wanted to share my own approach to the question regarding religious labels. As you might imagine, as a professor at a major university with hundreds of students each year I get asked quite often, usually after class by a student who has gotten up a bit of courage, "Prof Tabor, if you don't mind me asking, what religion do you profess?" What I often say in reply, and also include in my lectures dealing with biblical history is another question? What religion was Abraham or Sarah, or Noah, or Enoch, or Shem or any of those ancients who are said to have "walked with God" or "walked before God"? Usually I get a pensive silence. One might be tempted at first to say loosely "Jewish," but clearly there were no Jews or Israelites in that time. So what religion would we give to these ancient fathers and mothers of the faith--i.e. what was that faith? I think what is interesting is that it had no label. None is given in the Bible and I think there likely was none. They would likely have identified themselves as followers/ worshippers of the Most High God, the Creator. It is not a bad idea and surely more than enough for those of us who have shunned religious pigeon-holing today. James On Dec 6, 2007, at 1:02 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > Hanukkah Sameach L'Culam (Happy Hanukkah to everyone), > > In my note to Bonnie last evening, I mentioned a pet peeve I had > with the 'pigeon-hole' definitions my co-religionists seem to love > to use to categorize each other. Most of you folks are probably > aware of the garden variety terms: 'Orthodox', 'Conservative', > 'Reform' and 'Reconstructionist'. You've probably even heard the > terms, 'Ultra-Orthodox' and "Chassidic." But do you know that we're > also plagued with the alphabet soup of: 'ConservaDox', 'Ortho-prax', > 'Renewal,' 'Yeshivish,' 'Shomer Mitzvot,' 'Traditional,' 'Black > Hat,' 'Modern Orthodox,' 'Centerist Orthodox,' and more that I could > make you dizzy with! It's not much better in Israel, where it seems > that people define themselves as Haredi ("Ultra Orthodox' - although > there are both the Chassidic ones, and the non-Chassidic ones), > 'Religious,' 'Masorti (traditional), and 'Hiloni' - which means > 'secular.' Although how do you call someone who risks his or her > life to defend the Land of Israel, 'secular?' > > But it doesn't stop there boys and girls, no sir - among the > religious (NOT the Ultra groups), you have the 'Dati-Leumi' - the > 'National Religious' who made up those amazing Jews who settled in > YESHA - Judea, Samaria and Gaza (may it be returned to our control > immediately). But now you also have something called, 'Haredi- > Leumi' - more 'strict,' but still 'National' - it's enough to drive > you INSANE! > > Did you know that there's an actual ideological difference > between those guys that wear colorful knit kipot (yarmulkes) and > those that wear all black? Did you know that among those that wear > the black ones, there's a difference if it's 'velvet' or knit? You > can spend weeks just learning all this nonsense. > > So, where am I going with all of this? I could just as easily > pointed out the various Christian groups I've met, and how they > define themselves based on various positions regarding Yeshua, and/ > or using the 'divine name.' > > Personally, I always try to avoid the 'Orthodox' label, even > 'Modern Orthodox' - because I don't want anyone to see me as THE > Orthodox guy they know, since I don't see myself as anyone's 'role > model.' And that my personal views of things within Judaism are > certainly not what anyone would consider a mainstream 'Orthodox' > view. And besides, the Torah is perfect, those who attempt to > observe it are not....always remember that, no matter what costume > someone is wearing.... > > I noticed the difference of opinions relating to the term > 'Gentile.' I actually have a friend, who believes himself to be a > "Lost Triber," and only wants me to refer to him as a "Non-Jew," but > not a 'Gentile.' > > In my own case, growing up, I was the Jew...when I went to > Israel, I was the American. Among Americans in Israel, I became the > New Yorker (which they loved pronouncing 'New Yawker'), among other > New Yorkers, I'm the guy who grew up in the Bronx (something no one > readily admits these days..). And when I began reading Mormon > literature, I found out that they consider ME a Gentile! > > And what would you call the various people in this, and the UIWU > lists? How many defnitions would you need to appropriately > designate them? So what do all these terms mean, not a darn thing! > > I like to think of it this way: I'm not a noun in search of an > adjective....I have labels in my shirts, and even they're probably > unnecessary! > > Adjective less in NYC, :-) > Hanoch > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/b7fb6dc6/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 18:42:33 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 19:42:33 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No label. He was content to be his "Jewish" self, though his orientation was toward a direct reading of the Bible, particularly the Prophets. His father was a cantor/Rabbi, so growing up he had been exposed to Rabbinical thinking, but his soul became on fire reading the Hebrew Bible as a young man and wondering--where is this God of our Fathers today? That let him to move to the land of Israel way back in 1927. His journey was a spiritual quest. James On Dec 6, 2007, at 7:15 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > James: > > I did not have the privilege of meeting or knowing David Horowitz in > person, nevertheless, I have come to know him from his book - Thirty > Three Candles - and it would not be surprising to learn someday that > he was used of God to take history in a direction that would not > have occurred without him. He certainly was a devout man on a > mission and worked tirelessly toward a Jewish state. What form of > Judaism did David Horowitz adhere to? > > Clyde > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top > money wasters of 2007. > > From: James Tabor > Date: December 5, 2007 2:50:17 PM EST > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hanukkah Yes, But Don't Forget Kislev 24 > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > For what it is worth I can pass along to you that the late David > Horowtiz, who spent over 60 years at the UN as a Jewish > correspondent watching the comings and goings of the nations, always > held that the US, when worse came to worse, would not abandon > Israel. I have felt he was right, even though we have had very > strong anti-Israel elements in our State department at times. > > I am also convinced that the latter prophecies of Zechariah are in > some kind of prophetic/chronological order. No matter how historical > one might read them, even the most critical scholars would be hard > pressed to place all the visions that Zechariah had in his own time, > i.e., the 6th century BCE under Persian rule. It is simple not that > kind of book, particularly chapters 8-14. Even the early chapters > are explicitly said to be proleptic--the 6:9-15 and the making of > the "crowns." These Persian period returnees knew well that they > were not seeing what Isaiah and Jeremiah had predicted, and I think > those of the 20th century who have "returned to Zion" have also > realized the full meaning of the Prophets has not come about but > perhaps their return represents an inauguration. Zech 8 is about as > "chronological" as any text we find in the Hebrew Prophets. Chap 9-1 > is an Oracle, as is 12-14. > > James Tabor > > > On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:19 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > >> I find this paper of James Tabor as historically foundational of >> things that have been and things to come. Since God is a God of >> patterns, things that have occurred in the historical context of >> the times, have a way in similarity to repeat when circumstances >> seem to present a likely scenario. Being caution as to what we >> might observe in current situations as the paper of James is, where >> we are and what we might expect in our generation, I think we must >> enter with care. I wish to present a few thoughts with hope that >> others might have comment from their own observations. I think as >> James highlights Hos 6:2, After two days will he revive us: in the >> third day he will raise us up, and we will live in his light, from >> the principle of a day as a thousand years and a thousand years as >> a day, I wonder if the same pattern might be observed in Zech 13:7-9? >> >> That is from the desolations of the second temple in 70 CE, the >> scattering of the Jewish people into the nations, I wonder if vs >> 7-8 might be looked at as Zechariah's bridge across time? If so, >> then v 8 may very well correspond to Hos 6:2, again bringing us in >> time to the third day. On the bases of Judah having to be put >> between a rock and a hard place before they turn back to the God of >> the fathers, I wonder if what we read in Isaiah 11 might be in >> historical progression? Although this is speculation, it seems that >> our nation is bent on putting the little nation of Israel between a >> rock and a hard place. In light of the attempt to place the enemies >> of Israel at their front and back door, could we be moving Israel >> into a situation where Isa 11:13-16, 12:1-6, will demand we join >> with Judah and fly down upon her enemies? I realize the United >> States has become a melting pot for all things detestable as Rome >> became, but could we be at the core especially as out nation began, >> Joseph/Ephraim? Again this is only speculation. Any one have comment? >> >> Clyde >> >> > > = _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/5b911389/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 6 18:44:51 2007 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 00:44:51 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions Message-ID: <120720070044.9240.47589783000A3AA70000241822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> ... the way of life... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071207/5d26569c/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 18:53:10 2007 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 19:53:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Speaking of labels... References: <003701c83836$1bacad70$86958446@OAK> Message-ID: This is just too hard to believe...watch the the video. Just goes to show how those labels can work for people. "They had Christian back there." Really kind of sad, considering how little history people know. James > > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315194,00.html > > Sherri Shepherd > > The new co-host of "The View," Sherri Shepherd, insisted Tuesday that > Christianity was older than ancient Greece, and even Judaism. > > Shepherd ? who said earlier this year that she didn't know if the > world was flat or round ? said during a short-lived discussion of > Greek philosophy on Tuesday's show that she was pretty sure nothing > "predated Christians." > > The verbal jousting began when Joy Behar mentioned watching a History > Channel show on the Greek philosopher Epicurus and his definition of > happiness. > > "Keep in mind that probably when [Epicurus] was around, there was no > Jesus Christ stuff going on," co-host Whoopi Goldberg said. > > "They still had Christians back then," Shepherd interrupted. > > "They had gods," Goldberg said. > > "They had Christians," Shepherd insisted. "And they threw 'em to the > lions." > > "I think this might predate that," Goldberg said. > > "I don't think anything predated Christians," Shepherd shot back. > =========================== > > You can see a video of the incident at > > http://www.queerty.com/humor/sherri-shepherd-revises-world-history-20071204/ > > > > . > > __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071206/e86c8a38/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 6 18:55:34 2007 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 00:55:34 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Speaking of labels... Message-ID: <120720070055.9326.47589A0600094F7F0000246E22243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> yes, James... I saw that... so very telling of this generation... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20071207/559e8cf8/attachment.html From dennyj at mac.com Thu Dec 6 19:00:54 2007 From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 19:00:54 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Of Names & Definitions In-Reply-To: References: <8CA064943573F32-1720-4C39@mblk-d39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <9E737D34-C1D3-426F-B6D2-2C5BB22798C7@mac.com> James and Hanoch, Amen to you both. Now you're talkin'! This is what I like about this group. No pigeon holing. Well, I imagine that behind the keyboards there is still a natural tendency to try to categorize one another. I imagine in this group the first and natural category would be those who do and those who don't belong to the UIWU. You all seem to know each other quite well. In that sense I naturally feel kind of like an outsider. I obviously don't know all the things that you have shared together at your meetings nor your history which seems to go way back. That's why I don't share as much. I don't think we are quite on the same page. But i do like to read and learn. And I wholeheartedly identify with you assessment, James, that I am a follower and worshipper of the Most High God, the Creator, and with you, Hanoch, that it really doesn't mean a darn thing. I am arriving at the place where it really doesn't matter to me what others believe but what others do that matters. How we live is what Torah is about. Thank you both for the great reminders. We are looking forward to a wonderful Sabbath/Hanukkah party with a bunch of our friends tomorrow night. Looks like we will have a table full of lovers and worshippers of Hashem! Denny On Dec 6, 2007, at 6:39 PM, James Tabor wrote: > In the spirit of "answering a question with a question" I wanted to > share my own approach to the question regarding religious labels. As > you might imagine, as a professor at a major university with > hundreds of students each year I get asked quite often, usually > after class by a student who has gotten up a bit of courage, "Prof > Tabor, if you don't mind me asking, what religion do you profess?" > What I often say in reply, and also include in my lectures dealing > with biblical history is another question? What religion was Abraham > or Sarah, or Noah, or Enoch, or Shem or any of those ancients who > are said to have "walked with God" or "walked before God"? Usually I > get a pensive silence. One might be tempted at first to say loosely > "Jewish," but clearly there were no Jews or Israelites in that time. > So what religion would we give to these ancient fathers and mothers > of the faith--i.e. what was that faith? I think what is interesting > is that it had no label. None is given in the Bible and I think > there likely was none. They would likely have identified themselves > as followers/worshippers of the Most High God, the Creator. It is > not a bad idea and surely more than enough for those of us who have > shunned religious pigeon-holing today. > > James > > > On Dec 6, 2007, at 1:02 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > >> Hanukkah Sameach L'Culam (Happy Hanukkah to everyone), >> >> In my note to Bonnie last evening, I mentioned a pet peeve I >> had with the 'pigeon-hole' definitions my co-religionists seem to >> love to use to categorize each other. Most of you folks are >> probably aware of the garden variety terms: 'Orthodox', >> 'Conservative', 'Reform' and 'Reconstructionist'. You've probably >> even heard the terms, 'Ultra-Orthodox' and "Chassidic." But do you >> know that we're also plagued with the alphabet soup of: >> 'ConservaDox', 'Ortho-prax', 'Renewal,' 'Yeshivish,' 'Shomer >> Mitzvot,' 'Traditional,' 'Black Hat,' 'Modern Orthodox,' 'Centerist >> Orthodox,' and more that I could make you dizzy with! It's not >> much better in Israel, where it seems that people define themselves >> as Haredi ("Ultra Orthodox' - although there are both the Chassidic >> ones, and the non-Chassidic ones), 'Religious,' 'Masorti >> (traditional), and 'Hiloni' - which means 'secular.' Although how >> do you call someone who risks his or her life to defend the Land of >> Israel, 'secular?' >> >> But it doesn't stop there boys and girls, no sir - among the >> religious (NOT the Ultra groups), you have the 'Dati-Leumi' - the >> 'National Religious' who made up those amazing Jews who settled in >> YESHA - Judea, Samaria and Gaza (may it be returned to our control >> immediately). But now you also have something called, 'Haredi- >> Leumi' - more 'strict,' but still 'National' - it's enough to drive >> you INSANE! >> >> Did you know that there's an actual ideological difference >> between those guys that wear colorful knit kipot (yarmulkes) and >> those that wear all black? Did you know that among those that wear >> the black ones, there's a difference if it's 'velvet' or knit? You >> can spend weeks just learning all this nonsense. >> >> So, where am I going with all of this? I could just as easily >> pointed out the various Christian groups I've met, and how they >> define themselves based on various positions regarding Yeshua, and/ >> or using the 'divine name.' >> >> Personally, I always try to avoid the 'Orthodox' label, even >> 'Modern Orthodox' - because I don't want anyone to see me as THE >> Orthodox guy they know, since I don't see myself as anyone's 'role >> model.' And that my personal views of things within Judaism are >> certainly not what anyone would consider a mainstream 'Orthodox' >> view. And besides, the Torah is perfect, those who attempt to >> observe it are not....always remember that, no matter what costume >> someone is wearing.... >> >> I noticed the difference of opinions relating to the term >> 'Gentile.' I actually have a friend, who believes himself to be a >> "Lost Triber," and only wants me to refer to him as a "Non-Jew," >> but not a 'Gentile.' >> >> In my own case, growing up, I was the Jew...when I went to >> Israel, I was the American. Among Americans in Israel, I became >> the New Yorker (which they loved pronouncing 'New Yawker'), among >> other New Yorkers, I'm the guy who grew up in the Bronx (something >> no one readily admits these days..). And when I began reading >> Mormo