From dennyj at mac.com  Wed Nov 14 20:56:09 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:56:09 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Time for introductions
Message-ID: <D92AAF76-0996-4521-B109-2FE8AD49377B@mac.com>

Hello all,

We just wanted to introduce ourselves.
My name is Denny Johnson and we live up here in the cold north country  
of Minneapolis, MN.  My wife (Mary Joyce), myself, and our friends Dan  
and Denise have a small sabbath fellowship in our home with others who  
join us from time to time.
Our fellowship consists of Friday night dinners together, either at  
our home our theirs and a full Saturday of study, fellowship and meals  
once again.
We have been enjoying Roots of Faith live synagogue services since  
just before the new series. It feels like we are part of Roots of  
Faith even though we don't know you. We are starting to get familiar  
with the names and voices in the discussion times. Thank you all for  
letting us be a part of your congregation. We heard your greetings at  
the service some time ago. Thanks to Brian and Ross we now look  
forward to participating with you in this dialogue and learning from  
each other.

Shalom,
Denny and Mary Joyce
Dan and Denise
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 15 08:47:50 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:47:50 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction
Message-ID: <111520071447.24058.473C5C150007D28A00005DFA22218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

All,

Welcome and shalom! My name is Glenn Chatterton. Rhonda, my wonderful wife of 27 years, and I are privileged to attend the Roots of Faith services in person each Shabbat. We have done so since late March or early April. We are so delighted to be involved with a group that want to know God and follow all His ways. We feel honored that He has called us to this fellowship. We have learned so much about the roots of or faith in these few short months. We look forward to dialoguing with all of you, and learning together with you all the ways of God!

May you enter into His Shabbat rest,

Glenn & Rhonda
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Wed Nov 14 09:00:23 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:00:23 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
Message-ID: <111420071500.15140.473B0D86000AF04700003B2422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Yeshua's declaration "for many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14) and "... narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matthew 7:14) coupled with Peter's urging to "... give diligence to make your calling and election sure" (II Peter 1:10) and Paul's admonition to "... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12) actually give comfort to me, and inspire me to more fully focus on my active and continual role in my walk with God. Are there others who also feel this way?
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From info at poweredbyhadavar.com  Thu Nov 15 13:57:38 2007
From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:57:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
Message-ID: <75688.31438.qm@web1012.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I want to be in the few there be that find it.  Are we part of the few?


----- Original Message ----
From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" <chattertonw at bellsouth.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:00:23 AM
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)






Yeshua's declaration "for many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14) and "... narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matthew 7:14) coupled with Peter's urging to "... give diligence to make your calling and election sure" (II Peter 1:10) and Paul's admonition to "... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12) actually give comfort to me, and inspire me to more fully focus on my active and continual role in my walk with God. Are there others who also feel this way?






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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Thu Nov 15 14:07:55 2007
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:07:55 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] salvation
References: <75688.31438.qm@web1012.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002701c827c3$3663df40$6400a8c0@davesbook>

brians email box will be full of MY SALVATION.....what about all ya'll?
dave
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 15 14:24:18 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:24:18 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
Message-ID: <111520072024.6785.473CAAF2000DB15300001A8122228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

I will endeavor to do so... the pearl of great price
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Thu Nov 15 14:25:40 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:25:40 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] The List
Message-ID: <bbf.1ca96d3b.346e0544@aol.com>

Dear friends,
 
I wanted to send a quick note and let you know that I am excited about this  
new forum for "dialogue". We are still working to iron out a few settings so I 
 would ask that you remain patient.  I think that I have things set properly  
now, but we will see.  Please remember that this list goes to multiple  users 
and not just to me. You can view a list of members if you wish from the  list 
info page (_http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_ 
(http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue) )  if you enter your 
username and password (scroll to the bottom and you will see  it).
 
When you send posts to _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ 
(mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org)  the  message is out there for all subscribers to see and replies to 
posts that are  sent to the list are also seen by all subscribers.
 
While we were setting things up, Denny (a friend in Minnesota) sent the  list 
a post introducing himself.  I have asked him to resend it.  This  is a great 
idea and if everyone will do this, I think it help us all to get to  know one 
another.  I am quite excited about what this list can be.  It  is one small 
step in building a synagogue without walls.  Everyone is  welcome in this 
assembly!  You guys get to know each other.  This will  prove to be an incredible 
way to fellowship.
 
Love and shalom, Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Thu Nov 15 14:38:43 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:38:43 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue Messages - a few tips
Message-ID: <cc1.2117eb7a.346e0853@aol.com>

One thing that will help everyone follow a particular subject is for the  
person responding to try to stay on topic. I have been on lists such as this  
before where the "subject" of the email has nothing at all to do with the  
content after a few replies.  People sometimes hit reply and then change  the whole 
subject of the original post making it impossible to follow. If you  have 
something to talk about that is off the subject of the previous post, then  simply 
create a new subject and send it to _dailogue at rootsoffaith.org_ 
(mailto:dailogue at rootsoffaith.org) .
 
Another thing to consider is that as this list grows and several people are  
having dialogue about several different topics we need to make sure and copy 
the  comments to which we are responding into the response so that readers can  
understand what we are responding to.
 
Don't think of this as an IM (instant message).  Try and clearly  communicate 
what it is that you are talking about.  I am certain that there  is much 
wisdom on this list. I am excited about learning from all of you. Be  sure and do 
everything possible to help people follow your answers by thinking  about 
these things.
 
Shalom, Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From dennyj at mac.com  Thu Nov 15 17:43:57 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:43:57 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <111420071500.15140.473B0D86000AF04700003B2422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <111420071500.15140.473B0D86000AF04700003B2422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <F59C0FA4-1949-463E-A844-2E927FB4433B@mac.com>

Hello Glenn,

Yes, I agree with your comments. Let me give you a little more  
background on us. I was raised in a very evangelical Lutheran Church  
where the "born again" concept was preached on a regular basis. I had  
some problems with the doctrine of infant baptism among other issues  
and left the Lutheran Church in my early 20's. From there I stumbled  
onto the Church of Christ where I met my wife and a group of people  
who wanted to be the church as revealed in the Bible. You may already  
be familiar with them. It was there that I began to question much of  
what I was told concerning the church. We were married in the church  
of Christ and were part of the leadership in the church for many years  
until we began our music ministry in 1985. After sharing our family  
message in many different denominational churches, we could no longer  
be part of the narrow minded church of Christ which seemed to judge  
everyone who wasn't part of their group. They had so many issues even  
within the restoration church movement that it just turned us off. We  
left after 15 years of ministry there and got involved in an  
Evangelical Free church close to home. Even though we didn't agree  
with everything they taught we found a sweet fellowship and quickly  
got involved in leadership there, primarily and youth sponsors and  
worship leaders. After 12 years of ministry there, a new minister was  
hired who was a very strong Calvinist who constantly preached his  
"Faith plus nothing" message.  We didn't agree at all with his  
teaching and told him so. We have always felt that the faith we needed  
was "obedient faith". We were labeled as heretics for our stand and  
left. A few more years bouncing around left us totally disillusioned  
with institutional Christianity and on a totally different course into  
the Hebraic roots of our faith along with our son and his inlaws. It  
has been a very interesting journey that can only be summed up by the  
statement you made in your posting. Very well put. We totally agree  
and continue to grow in our own obedient walk with God.

I think the problem that the western Christian church has is that our  
western mindset always seeks out easy formulas to achieving a certain  
end that can be taught and repeated.

We are discovering that salvation isn't a formula. As soon as we make  
it a formula,  I don't need the heart. It is hard to put it into  
words, but it seems to me that what I need to be focusing on is my  
faith relationship with God which results in a deeper understanding of  
what pleases Him and an obedient response to what He reveals to me  
through His instruction. The result is salvation here and now, where I  
live.

You know, this dialogue will be good for me, to help me better express  
these things. Thanks Glenn for your beginning comments to start us out.

Shalom,
Denny



On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:00 AM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote:

> Yeshua's declaration "for many are called, but few are  
> chosen" (Matthew 22:14) and "... narrow is the way, which leadeth  
> unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matthew 7:14) coupled  
> with Peter's urging to "... give diligence to make your calling and  
> election sure" (II Peter 1:10) and Paul's admonition to "... work  
> out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12)  
> actually give comfort to me, and inspire me to more fully focus on  
> my active and continual role in my walk with God. Are there others  
> who also feel this way?
> _______________________________________________
> Dialogue mailing list
> Dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue



From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 15 20:52:48 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 02:52:48 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
Message-ID: <111620070252.17270.473D06000007CA6E0000437622230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Denny,

It is a sad commentary that our stories ring so similar and align with many others I know. Well, perhaps not sad, for in all the 'wasted time' we managed to hear the Voice and find the Way. So, I will rephrase and say it is interesting that our individual quests followed such similar paths. May the Father's will be done...

This straight gate and narrow way Yeshua described to us and modeled for us does not seem to appeal to many. Yet what else is there but God's Way? Nothing else has ever satisfied the deep longing, the yearning in my soul. I want only to please the Father and do His bidding. Yes, at times this is a hard and lonely place to dwell. At this particular season, however, He has granted me the blessing of fellowship with other seekers of The Truth. I am convinced that this dialogue will enhance all our walks.

Thank you, my brother, for the kind words and the blessing of sharing your understanding of the Father and Yeshua with us. I do so look forward to many interesting and fruitful discussions.

May The LORD bless thee, and keep thee,

Glenn Chatterton
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From psalmist7 at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 15 21:37:25 2007
From: psalmist7 at earthlink.net (ArizonaKathy)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:37:25 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
References: <111420071500.15140.473B0D86000AF04700003B2422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<F59C0FA4-1949-463E-A844-2E927FB4433B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <012301c82803$58bdb620$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>

Hello,  I was invited to join this group.  So far I recognize no names. 
This comment in quotes concerns me.

<<where the "born again" concept was preached on a regular basis>>

If the concept of being born again,  or born anew is not valid on this 
group,  then I need to unsub.

Would a moderator please clarify for me??

Thanks in advance

kc




From psalmist7 at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 15 21:41:18 2007
From: psalmist7 at earthlink.net (ArizonaKathy)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:41:18 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
References: <111520072024.6785.473CAAF2000DB15300001A8122228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <012501c82803$594cd6c0$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>

Is this an LDS list,  I ask because of the reference to << the pearl of great price>>

Would the list owner or mods please identify themselves??

Thanks so much

kc
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From dennyj at mac.com  Thu Nov 15 22:34:40 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:34:40 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <012301c82803$58bdb620$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
References: <111420071500.15140.473B0D86000AF04700003B2422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<F59C0FA4-1949-463E-A844-2E927FB4433B@mac.com>
	<012301c82803$58bdb620$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
Message-ID: <AAD8B132-FA10-420D-9C67-6B5FFAC3CAC2@mac.com>

Hello, KC.

I was the one who used that in my description of the Lutheran Church I  
attended and it surely was not a derogatory remark in any way.
The purpose was to set it apart from the majority of Lutheran churches  
in our area that were not evangelical. I actually was in conversation  
with a Lutheran minister while travelling with a gospel group I was a  
member of who told us that there was no way that we could know for  
sure that we were saved and going to heaven. Unlike him, our Lutheran  
pastor preached the born again message every week. I hope that eases  
your mind some.  Please join in. Your thoughts are very welcome and  
valid here.

Just curious, what made you feel that my comments were invalidating  
the born again experience? I may have to analyze how to better express  
myself.

Sincerely,
Denny


On Nov 15, 2007, at 9:37 PM, ArizonaKathy wrote:

> Hello,  I was invited to join this group.  So far I recognize no  
> names. This comment in quotes concerns me.
>
> <<where the "born again" concept was preached on a regular basis>>
>
> If the concept of being born again,  or born anew is not valid on  
> this group,  then I need to unsub.
>
> Would a moderator please clarify for me??
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> kc
>
>
> _______________________________________________



From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com  Thu Nov 15 22:51:55 2007
From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:51:55 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] to be Born Again
Message-ID: <CAFFEC80641E3E4183BF90B0E461D6AC04BB3673@msgcpla090.srv.gapac.com>

Dear Kathy,

Thanks for joining and I hope that you read and understood the whole
idea of the list.  Do not be concerned that you do not recognize any of
the names on this list. You are welcome here. I doubt that anyone here
knows you and so you may want to tell us a little about yourself. 

I have established this list especially for people to have conversations
on any subject related to the quest for Biblical understanding. In doing
so, people from all over the country and the world for that matter, and
from various backgrounds will be drawn to this dialogue. I am hoping
that this can be a forum for people to freely express their ideas, views
and questions. This list may eventually have fundamentalist Christians,
Jews, scholars and lay people. I suspect that there may be those who
join who have no preference to any of the above named groups and are
here to learn from all. 

While this list is hosted by me and I am not in any way affiliated with
the LDS I would venture to say that there may eventually be Mormons who
will be led to join our ranks for the purpose of studying with us. If
so, they are welcomed by me with an extended hand. We should all learn
from Jesus in that regard. As far as the reference to the "pearl of
great price", while the Latter Day Saints may have coined this phrase
for a volume of work published by them, it originated with Jesus in one
of his parables (Matthew 13:45-46). In that sense I too am fond of the
phrase.  I might add that while I am not a Mormon, I do count myself
(and you as well) as a latter day saint:)

There are indeed plenty of lists that claim to have it all figured out.
Not so with this list. I for one am a student of these things first and
always make every attempt to better understand the words of the Bible
from their original and thoroughly Hebraic perspective. 

In saying that, I would venture to say that there are a host of
differing views on exactly what it means to be born again (or from
above, or anew) and while I will let the original author explain his own
views of the statement in his note, I would like to explore the subject
from its context in the gospel of John. I am sure that you have been
taught what exactly "being born again" means and how one is to achieve
this born again experience. Let us reason together from the text to
which we make reference, and let the dialogue begin:) I propose that we
look closely to see if there is more there than we may have been taught.

In the third chapter of John we find Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews
approaching Jesus by night. 

There are a couple of things that stand out in the text. Jesus tells
Nicodemus that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born
again. This seems to confuse Nicodemus who responds with a puzzled
remark asking Jesus how one that is old can enter again into his
mother's womb. Jesus continues by declaring that no one can enter the
kingdom of God unless they are born of the water and the spirit - for
what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is
spirit - do not be astonished said Jesus, that "I said to you, 'you must
be born again'. The wind blows where it chooses and you hear the sound
of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it
is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The Greek has the word "you" (you must be born again) in the plural so
he implies that the audience is more than Nicodemus.

Nicodemus is still seemingly confused and asked how these things can be.

Notice carefully what Jesus tells him next. Are you a teacher in Israel
and yet you do not understand these things?"

So evidently Jesus is saying that Nicodemus, a teacher in Israel should
understand this idea.  Is it not interesting to consider that being born
again was something that Jesus declares should have been understood in a
time BEFORE his death?

This text does not provide a formula for achieving this birth. Various
forms of modern Christianity have assigned various formulas. I would
humbly ask if the modern view matches the one that Jesus is describing.

We should pay close attention to his words here and seek to understand
this in its original context. The new birth comes from above it would
seem and is described by Jesus using the "wind" as a comparison.  In
Hebrew the word wind and spirit are the same - ruach.

What are we to make of this? Comments are welcome, and remember that we
need to be respectful and willing to read and learn from the ideas of
others.  People are very opinionated when it comes to religious matters.


Questions about things such as this are healthy and as long as discussed
with love and sincerity can bring about increased understanding for all.

Love and shalom, Ross






-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of ArizonaKathy
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 9:37 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] (no subject)

Hello,  I was invited to join this group.  So far I recognize no names. 
This comment in quotes concerns me.

<<where the "born again" concept was preached on a regular basis>>

If the concept of being born again,  or born anew is not valid on this 
group,  then I need to unsub.

Would a moderator please clarify for me??

Thanks in advance

kc


_______________________________________________



From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 16 00:13:18 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 06:13:18 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
Message-ID: <111620070613.3512.473D34FB000C5EAC00000DB822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hello all,

Denny I don't know if you got my welcome message last night or not.  We have been having a merry time today as Ross worked on gettiing the bugs out of the mailing list, thanks Ross (I had to let my Blackberry cool off though).  Anyway, if not, then welcome again.  Also welcome to Kathy.  Ross said it just right, we can all learn more about our own beliefs if we discuss them openly, courageously and with respect for each other.  So let the talks begin.

By way of introduction, My name is John Carlson, I am married to a wonderful woman (and artist) named Carin.  I have two grown children, Megan and Michael and three grand-children.  I grew up in an out-of-the-way catholic neighborhood in Brooklyn NY and how I ended up in Louisiana is a longer story than I will test your attention span with tonite.  

By the time I was 18, I had come to realize that my Catholic "faith" was really more of a cultural expectation than anything else and I therefore decided that I was an agnostic.  It was several years before I felt God drawing me back to Him.  Unfortunately at the time I knew very little about the Bible and understood that the only way to Him was through "church".  My wife (who also grew up Catholic) and I joined an independant fundamentalist church in Kennewick Washington which began my journey toward where I am today.  

We have explored many denominations over the years and actually dropped out of church altogether for long periods but we could never find the place that both fit us and fit us in.  But the draw was always there.  To make a long story short, we have both come to the conclusion that the modern conventional model of Christianity bears little resemblance to the early congregations of Yeshua's followers.  We are learning that a better understanding of Hebrew culture and thought, especially the Torah and the Prophets is helping us better understand Yeshua's teachings and consequently deepening our relationship with God.

Personally I am now cogitating over the issue of Yeshua's Diety.  Not so much whether it is the truth as the issue of whether it matters.  One of my stakes in the ground is that Yeshua is the Melech HaMoshiach, the Anointed King, what I have come to learn is that there is very little true understanding of what that actually means in both Christian and Jewish teachings.  So far I have concluded that Christianity in general has actually mis-interpreted the "good news".  Yeshua spent very little time touting or discussing the issue of His diety, His stated ministry was to lead us to the Father.  So while the Christian world is focusing on the idea that God came to earth, died for our sins and was ressurrected (none of which I tacitly deny at this point) we have missed the message that Yeshua Himself was trying to teach us.  The good news is that He came to write the Law on our hearts, that is truly our redemption if we learn to understand and follow it.

Anyway, that's my thumbnail.  We'll learn more about each other as the discussion progresses.

Welcome to all.

May HaShem make His face to shine upon you.

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com>: -------------- 


> Hello, KC. 
> 
> I was the one who used that in my description of the Lutheran Church I 
> attended and it surely was not a derogatory remark in any way. 
> The purpose was to set it apart from the majority of Lutheran churches 
> in our area that were not evangelical. I actually was in conversation 
> with a Lutheran minister while travelling with a gospel group I was a 
> member of who told us that there was no way that we could know for 
> sure that we were saved and going to heaven. Unlike him, our Lutheran 
> pastor preached the born again message every week. I hope that eases 
> your mind some. Please join in. Your thoughts are very welcome and 
> valid here. 
> 
> Just curious, what made you feel that my comments were invalidating 
> the born again experience? I may have to analyze how to better express 
> myself. 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> Denny 
> 
> 
> On Nov 15, 2007, at 9:37 PM, ArizonaKathy wrote: 
> 
> > Hello, I was invited to join this group. So far I recognize no 
> > names. This comment in quotes concerns me. 
> > 
> > <> 
> > 
> > If the concept of being born again, or born anew is not valid on 
> > this group, then I need to unsub. 
> > 
> > Would a moderator please clarify for me?? 
> > 
> > Thanks in advance 
> > 
> > kc 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
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From dennyj at mac.com  Fri Nov 16 05:01:07 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 05:01:07 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Denominations
In-Reply-To: <111620070613.3512.473D34FB000C5EAC00000DB822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <111620070613.3512.473D34FB000C5EAC00000DB822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <681520D6-9FF5-4E56-B40D-38DAE7733DA5@mac.com>

Good morning, John.

Yes, I have been getting everyone's postings. Thank you for sharing  
some of your story. This is beginning to seem more like a true  
fellowship than just a discussion forum. I love it!
This is exactly why I  no longer can fit within the confines of a  
denominational structure. Each church that we have been a part of has  
their own creed and doctrinal statement that says "We have this  
figured out. Here it is and if you believe as we do, you may be a  
member of our group". Not a very Biblical picture as far as I can tell.

Having a shared creed means I don't have to think about these things  
anymore. "Just believe" I am told. When I tell someone in a  
denominational group what I believe, it creates problems. I am going  
to enjoy this group because I can feel free to express my thoughts  
without be judged and because I can know that others will also feel  
free to share their insights graciously so I can learn from them.

Thanks to Ross, Brian and the supporters at Roots of Faith for  
providing this venue.

I must state for everyone who feels they need to put me in some kind  
of category that I am not part of any established denomination or  
school of thought. Nor is my wife. Because of that we do not attend  
any particular church. That is quite different from the way we have  
lived our lives up until a year ago. We have always been involved  
deeply in church life in multiple capacities since we were married 32  
years ago. Some would say that we have lost our faith. Others say that  
we have been hurt too many times. For us it is just a matter going on  
a deeper journey with God. I heard someone in the house church  
movement say the they wished someone would just "hold my head under  
water until the last religious bubble escapes my lungs." I feel like  
that is the experience of this past year. I have found my identity in  
the church most all of my life. To decide not to go to an  
institutional church on Sundays was a real battle for awhile. Deciding  
to fellowship on the Biblical Sabbath has brought much disdain from  
our friends and family who can't understand it from their doctrinal  
positions that they hold many times out of fear but mostly out of  
convenience. We really are going against the flow it seems by choosing  
to follow the original Biblical patterns. They accuse us of being  
Jehovah's Witness or going "back under the law" and "fallen from grace."

Well, we don't have it all figured out any longer. Don't know that we  
ever will. We just want to learn more about who God is and what He  
desires of us. We know that we were created  for more than just trying  
to get others to join our sectarian clubs.

So, if you are tempted to, please don't try to put us into any  
spiritual boxes. We don't fit any at this time. ;-)

We look forward to much fruitful discussion and fellowship with you all.

Now, I must go to work. I have a long day ahead of me until Sabbath.

Denny

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From dennyj at mac.com  Fri Nov 16 05:30:34 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 05:30:34 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Trinity
In-Reply-To: <111620070613.3512.473D34FB000C5EAC00000DB822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <111620070613.3512.473D34FB000C5EAC00000DB822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <16A2779E-47D3-44D3-B001-906384617109@mac.com>

John,

I am splitting up my responses to your last message in order to have  
separate threads of discussion. I appreciate your comments concerning  
the deity of Christ.
Being raised all my life in a trinitarian upbringing makes it  
challenging to consider anything else. Our youngest son and also our  
son-in-law have come to a different conclusion on their own. This  
caused a lot of serious conversation in our home and a lot of  
worrying. In the past year I, too, have come to the conclusion that  
Jesus is not God. I arrived at this place from reading Jesus own words  
concerning his Father and himself. Particularly revealing are a couple  
of verses in John 17 and John 20:17.

Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said,  
?Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify  
You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom  
You have given Him, He may give eternal life.  ?This is eternal life,  
that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You  
have sent. John 17

Jesus said to her, ?Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended  
to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ?I ascend to My  
Father and your Father, and My God and your God.?? John 20:17

There are many others that indicate the same thing but these are  
starkly clear statements by Jesus himself as to who he worshiped and  
how he saw himself. Jesus had a God that he worshiped.

There are many interesting websites that I have discovered that shed  
so much light on this subject and on the history of the development of  
trinitarian doctrine. I won't go into that here. It is available to  
any who wish to research it. But this one area of teaching alone would  
exclude me from any fellowship with most institutional churches today.

So, John, you are not alone in your thoughts, by any means. I support  
you in your continued search.

Blessings,
Denny



> Personally I am now cogitating over the issue of Yeshua's Diety.   
> Not so much whether it is the truth as the issue of whether it  
> matters.  One of my stakes in the ground is that Yeshua is the  
> Melech HaMoshiach, the Anointed King, what I have come to learn is  
> that there is very little true understanding of what that actually  
> means in both Christian and Jewish teachings.  So far I have  
> concluded that Christianity in general has actually mis-interpreted  
> the "good news".  Yeshua spent very little time touting or  
> discussing the issue of His diety, His stated ministry was to lead  
> us to the Father.  So while the Christian world is focusing on the  
> idea that God came to earth, died for our sins and was ressurrected  
> (none of which I tacitly deny at this point) we have missed the  
> message that Yeshua Himself was trying to teach us.  The good news  
> is that He came to write the Law on our hearts, that is truly our  
> redemption if we learn to understand and follow it.
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From info at poweredbyhadavar.com  Fri Nov 16 06:41:26 2007
From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 04:41:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Denominations
Message-ID: <738001.46117.qm@web1009.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Just wanted to say hello Denny and welcome.

?Now is the time to walk away from the traditions of men and turn back to the ways of Elohim.?

Shalom

Rick


----- Original Message ----
From: Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:01:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Denominations

Good morning, John.

Yes, I have been getting everyone's postings. Thank you for sharing some of your story. This is beginning to seem more like a true fellowship than just a discussion forum. I love it!
This is exactly why I  no longer can fit within the confines of a denominational structure. Each church that we have been a part of has their own creed and doctrinal statement that says "We have this figured out. Here it is and if you believe as we do, you may be a member of our group". Not a very Biblical picture as far as I can tell. 


Having a shared creed means I don't have to think about these things anymore. "Just believe" I am told. When I tell someone in a denominational group what I believe, it creates problems. I am going to enjoy this group because I can feel free to express my thoughts without be judged and because I can know that others will also feel free to share their insights graciously so I can learn from them.


Thanks to Ross, Brian and the supporters at Roots of Faith for providing this venue.


I must state for everyone who feels they need to put me in some kind of category that I am not part of any established denomination or school of thought. Nor is my wife. Because of that we do not attend any particular church. That is quite different from the way we have lived our lives up until a year ago. We have always been involved deeply in church life in multiple capacities since we were married 32 years ago. Some would say that we have lost our faith. Others say that we have been hurt too many times. For us it is just a matter going on a deeper journey with God. I heard someone in the house church movement say the they wished someone would just "hold my head under water until the last religious bubble escapes my lungs." I feel like that is the experience of this past year. I have found my identity in the church most all of my life. To decide not to go to an institutional church on Sundays was a real battle for awhile. Deciding to fellowship on the
 Biblical Sabbath has brought much disdain from our friends and family who can't understand it from their doctrinal positions that they hold many times out of fear but mostly out of convenience. We really are going against the flow it seems by choosing to follow the original Biblical patterns. They accuse us of being Jehovah's Witness or going "back under the law" and "fallen from grace." 


Well, we don't have it all figured out any longer. Don't know that we ever will. We just want to learn more about who God is and what He desires of us. We know that we were created  for more than just trying to get others to join our sectarian clubs.


So, if you are tempted to, please don't try to put us into any spiritual boxes. We don't fit any at this time. ;-)


We look forward to much fruitful discussion and fellowship with you all.


Now, I must go to work. I have a long day ahead of me until Sabbath.


Denny





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From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Fri Nov 16 07:15:44 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:15:44 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Denominations
In-Reply-To: <681520D6-9FF5-4E56-B40D-38DAE7733DA5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F400@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Denny,
 
Rhonda and I have been extended the "left foot of fellowship" from
several groups and for various reasons, all of which centered on what we
believed and spoke of (out of the abundance of the heart the mouth
speaks). Based on my experience and in talking with other seekers, I
realize it is a recurring theme. We, as you, tried to 'fit in', but all
the while felt that was not being true to ourselves or to God. Then John
mentioned the bible study he was attending. The rest, as they say, was
history.
 
I must note here that I met God at a young age, and felt the call to Him
and to serve my brothers and sisters as He saw fit. This I have
attempted to do in many different churches, with varying degrees of
success, and with terrible falls into apostasy along the way. In it all
I have learned of God's mercy and compassion and willingness to forgive
me if I will but repent and turn to Him with all my heart. That is where
I find myself this chilly fall morning - seeking God, and trying to do
so with every fiber of my being...
 
Your fellow traveler on the path to life,
 
Glenn

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
	Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:01 AM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Denominations
	
	
	Good morning, John. 

	Yes, I have been getting everyone's postings. Thank you for
sharing some of your story. This is beginning to seem more like a true
fellowship than just a discussion forum. I love it!
	This is exactly why I  no longer can fit within the confines of
a denominational structure. Each church that we have been a part of has
their own creed and doctrinal statement that says "We have this figured
out. Here it is and if you believe as we do, you may be a member of our
group". Not a very Biblical picture as far as I can tell. 
	
	
	Having a shared creed means I don't have to think about these
things anymore. "Just believe" I am told. When I tell someone in a
denominational group what I believe, it creates problems. I am going to
enjoy this group because I can feel free to express my thoughts without
be judged and because I can know that others will also feel free to
share their insights graciously so I can learn from them.
	
	
	Thanks to Ross, Brian and the supporters at Roots of Faith for
providing this venue.
	
	
	I must state for everyone who feels they need to put me in some
kind of category that I am not part of any established denomination or
school of thought. Nor is my wife. Because of that we do not attend any
particular church. That is quite different from the way we have lived
our lives up until a year ago. We have always been involved deeply in
church life in multiple capacities since we were married 32 years ago.
Some would say that we have lost our faith. Others say that we have been
hurt too many times. For us it is just a matter going on a deeper
journey with God. I heard someone in the house church movement say the
they wished someone would just "hold my head under water until the last
religious bubble escapes my lungs." I feel like that is the experience
of this past year. I have found my identity in the church most all of my
life. To decide not to go to an institutional church on Sundays was a
real battle for awhile. Deciding to fellowship on the Biblical Sabbath
has brought much disdain from our friends and family who can't
understand it from their doctrinal positions that they hold many times
out of fear but mostly out of convenience. We really are going against
the flow it seems by choosing to follow the original Biblical patterns.
They accuse us of being Jehovah's Witness or going "back under the law"
and "fallen from grace." 
	
	
	Well, we don't have it all figured out any longer. Don't know
that we ever will. We just want to learn more about who God is and what
He desires of us. We know that we were created  for more than just
trying to get others to join our sectarian clubs.
	
	
	So, if you are tempted to, please don't try to put us into any
spiritual boxes. We don't fit any at this time. ;-)
	
	
	We look forward to much fruitful discussion and fellowship with
you all.
	
	
	Now, I must go to work. I have a long day ahead of me until
Sabbath.
	
	
	Denny
	
	

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From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Fri Nov 16 07:18:34 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:18:34 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Trinity
In-Reply-To: <16A2779E-47D3-44D3-B001-906384617109@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F402@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Denny,
 
I too am at a place where all the previous notions I had and teachings I
received are subject to intense scrutiny in light of the Scriptures (the
Bible Yeshua and the disciples read). John, Ross, Rick and I discuss
these very issues daily in our quest to know the truth. Please feel free
to join right in! We welcome the fresh perspective!
 
Glenn

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
	Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:31 AM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Trinity
	
	
	John, 

	I am splitting up my responses to your last message in order to
have separate threads of discussion. I appreciate your comments
concerning the deity of Christ.
	Being raised all my life in a trinitarian upbringing makes it
challenging to consider anything else. Our youngest son and also our
son-in-law have come to a different conclusion on their own. This caused
a lot of serious conversation in our home and a lot of worrying. In the
past year I, too, have come to the conclusion that Jesus is not God. I
arrived at this place from reading Jesus own words concerning his Father
and himself. Particularly revealing are a couple of verses in John 17
and John 20:17.

	Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He
said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may
glorify You, 2 <http://bible.cc/john/17-2.htm>  even as You gave Him
authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may
give eternal life.  "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the
only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17
	
	
	Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet
ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend
to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" John 20:17
	
	
	There are many others that indicate the same thing but these are
starkly clear statements by Jesus himself as to who he worshiped and how
he saw himself. Jesus had a God that he worshiped.
	
	
	There are many interesting websites that I have discovered that
shed so much light on this subject and on the history of the development
of trinitarian doctrine. I won't go into that here. It is available to
any who wish to research it. But this one area of teaching alone would
exclude me from any fellowship with most institutional churches today. 
	
	
	So, John, you are not alone in your thoughts, by any means. I
support you in your continued search.
	
	
	Blessings,
	Denny
	
	
	
	


		Personally I am now cogitating over the issue of
Yeshua's Diety.  Not so much whether it is the truth as the issue of
whether it matters.  One of my stakes in the ground is that Yeshua is
the Melech HaMoshiach, the Anointed King, what I have come to learn is
that there is very little true understanding of what that actually means
in both Christian and Jewish teachings.  So far I have concluded that
Christianity in general has actually mis-interpreted the "good news".
Yeshua spent very little time touting or discussing the issue of His
diety, His stated ministry was to lead us to the Father.  So while the
Christian world is focusing on the idea that God came to earth, died for
our sins and was ressurrected (none of which I tacitly deny at this
point) we have missed the message that Yeshua Himself was trying to
teach us.  The good news is that He came to write the Law on our hearts,
that is truly our redemption if we learn to understand and follow it.

-------------- next part --------------
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From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Fri Nov 16 07:49:20 2007
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:49:20 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] to be Born Again
Message-ID: <caf.220119ce.346ef9e0@aol.com>

Hello to all on the list:
 
Thanks to Ross for opening this dialogue that each of us can reason  together 
out of the word of God, and thereby learn from each other. In following  the 
comments of Ross on being born again from above as recorded in the third  
chapter of John.  A few comments for each of you on the list to consider,  and I 
am also a student of the word of God as Ross stated of himself,  which means we 
are still learning. In my own studies on this important  subject of being 
born again, it appears to me that there are two phases to being  born again.  
Perhaps the first phase is recorded in Acts two where by the  preaching of Peter 
and the other Jerusalem apostles three thousand believed and  were baptized. 
The indication is they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit of the  living God.  I 
think this was the beginning of what was spoken by Jeremiah  the prophet in 
chapter 31:31-33, where Yahwah God writes his Torah/Law upon  the inward parts, 
and writes it in the hearts of the believers. 
 
This first phase then begins the process of the new creation that the  
apostle Paul speaks about. We cannot see the Holy Spirit of God indwelling our  
hearts, but what we can observe is the work of God through the risen Jesus  Christ 
in the fruits produced in the life of the believer.  The second  phase I 
think is in the resurrection from the dead of those in Christ,  or the change for 
those still alive at his return in the cloud.  Perhaps  this can be thought of 
where a spirit body is given to house the new creation we  are in the process 
of building as the old self is bring overcome. There are a  good many 
scriptures that seem to relate to this two step process. I  am open to the comments 
of others of how each view what it means to be born  again.
 
Clyde Brown   



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From psalmist7 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 07:31:44 2007
From: psalmist7 at earthlink.net (ArizonaKathy)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 06:31:44 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] to be Born Again
References: <CAFFEC80641E3E4183BF90B0E461D6AC04BB3673@msgcpla090.srv.gapac.com>
Message-ID: <008701c82858$5083ff00$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>

Thank you Ross for a well written post that contained no sarcasm,  or 
accusations.    I'm comfortable being around many diverse ideas....

Unfortunately,  there are many online who have very specific agendas.  That 
doesn't appear to be the case here.   Thank you for the welcome.   You post 
has given me some ideas to consider.  That is always a good thing.

I appreciate the spirit in which they were put forth.

Thank you
kathy 



From psalmist7 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 07:51:38 2007
From: psalmist7 at earthlink.net (ArizonaKathy)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 06:51:38 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
References: <111420071500.15140.473B0D86000AF04700003B2422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><F59C0FA4-1949-463E-A844-2E927FB4433B@mac.com><012301c82803$58bdb620$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
	<AAD8B132-FA10-420D-9C67-6B5FFAC3CAC2@mac.com>
Message-ID: <008901c82858$511c9580$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>

When I make a comment with a nod and a  wink so to speak,  I put it in 
"quotes"   and that's what yout post had done.   I  was likely coming from 
my own style of posting.

Thanks for clarifying.

I've dealt with 5 deaths in a very short time frame and have been 
disccouraged at the lack of discussion of the after life,  G-d is dealing 
with me regarding heaven and hell.    I'm focusing on people dying and 
goiing to hell becaause they do no hagve a personal relation with Messia


does this help openmy concerns.

Kathy 



From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Fri Nov 16 08:07:26 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:07:26 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] to be Born Again
In-Reply-To: <caf.220119ce.346ef9e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F40A@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Hello and welcome, Clyde! I am aspiring to one day be a student... for
now I feel like I am but barely able to read, let alone fathom the
depths of God's Word! I am not discouraged, however.
 
Several of us at Roots of Faith have been discussing the Nicodemus
encounter that Ross so succinctly recounted. An idea Rick and I
discussed yesterday goes right along with it. We feel that we ought to
be able to do just as Yeshua did with the two on the road to Emmaus and
preach MaSHiaCH from the TeNaKH. Also included in that would be the
understanding of the born again experience. We feel we should be able to
point people to God from the TeNaKH, without relying on a New Testament.
Paul did this with great success as recounted in the Book of Acts. So
this is one thing that I intend to investigate further - learning how to
share my love for God from the basis of the Bible Yeshua used.
 
May goodness and mercy follow you all the days of your life,
 
Glenn Chatterton

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
CBrown4465 at aol.com
	Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 7:49 AM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: Re: [Dialogue] to be Born Again
	
	
	
	Hello to all on the list:
	 
	Thanks to Ross for opening this dialogue that each of us can
reason together out of the word of God, and thereby learn from each
other. In following the comments of Ross on being born again from above
as recorded in the third chapter of John.  A few comments for each of
you on the list to consider, and I am also a student of the word of God
as Ross stated of himself, which means we are still learning. In my own
studies on this important subject of being born again, it appears to me
that there are two phases to being born again.  Perhaps the first phase
is recorded in Acts two where by the preaching of Peter and the other
Jerusalem apostles three thousand believed and were baptized. The
indication is they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit of the living God.  I
think this was the beginning of what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet
in chapter 31:31-33, where Yahwah God writes his Torah/Law upon the
inward parts, and writes it in the hearts of the believers. 
	 
	This first phase then begins the process of the new creation
that the apostle Paul speaks about. We cannot see the Holy Spirit of God
indwelling our hearts, but what we can observe is the work of God
through the risen Jesus Christ in the fruits produced in the life of the
believer.  The second phase I think is in the resurrection from the dead
of those in Christ, or the change for those still alive at his return in
the cloud.  Perhaps this can be thought of where a spirit body is given
to house the new creation we are in the process of building as the old
self is bring overcome. There are a good many scriptures that seem to
relate to this two step process. I am open to the comments of others of
how each view what it means to be born again.
	 
	Clyde Brown   



	
________________________________

	See what's new at AOL.com
<http://www.aol.com?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170>  and Make AOL Your
Homepage <http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169> .

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From dennyj at mac.com  Fri Nov 16 09:28:43 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:28:43 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <008901c82858$511c9580$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
References: <111420071500.15140.473B0D86000AF04700003B2422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<F59C0FA4-1949-463E-A844-2E927FB4433B@mac.com>
	<012301c82803$58bdb620$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
	<AAD8B132-FA10-420D-9C67-6B5FFAC3CAC2@mac.com>
	<008901c82858$511c9580$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
Message-ID: <85BFCE35-0116-1000-E252-A490D9B3A13B-Webmail-10006@mac.com>

Hello Kathy,

Sorry to hear about your many losses.
We are going through similar times this year. My wife's mother will soon be home with the Lord.
Sounds like she will make it to Thanksgiving though.

I see what you mean about the quotes. Let me assure you there was no nod and wink on my end.
I don't write often so this is something I need to grow in and learn from others.
And rest assured, I have no agenda. Just was invited, like you, to participate in this discussion group.

Thanks for being candid with me.

Blessings,
Denny


Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play.

 
On Friday, November 16, 2007, at 07:55AM, "ArizonaKathy" <psalmist7 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>When I make a comment with a nod and a  wink so to speak,  I put it in 
>"quotes"   and that's what yout post had done.   I  was likely coming from 
>my own style of posting.
>
>Thanks for clarifying.
>
>I've dealt with 5 deaths in a very short time frame and have been 
>disccouraged at the lack of discussion of the after life,  G-d is dealing 
>with me regarding heaven and hell.    I'm focusing on people dying and 
>goiing to hell becaause they do no hagve a personal relation with Messia
>
>
>does this help openmy concerns.
>
>Kathy 
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>


From dennyj at mac.com  Fri Nov 16 10:28:24 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:28:24 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Good Shabbos!
In-Reply-To: <85BFCE35-0116-1000-E252-A490D9B3A13B-Webmail-10006@mac.com>
References: <111420071500.15140.473B0D86000AF04700003B2422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<F59C0FA4-1949-463E-A844-2E927FB4433B@mac.com>
	<012301c82803$58bdb620$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
	<AAD8B132-FA10-420D-9C67-6B5FFAC3CAC2@mac.com>
	<008901c82858$511c9580$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
	<85BFCE35-0116-1000-E252-A490D9B3A13B-Webmail-10006@mac.com>
Message-ID: <77094447-0116-1000-878B-A90251CAAAC1-Webmail-10025@mac.com>

Good Shabbos y'all.

We'll, be listening tomorrow.

Shalom,
Denny


From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Fri Nov 16 10:40:12 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:40:12 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Good Shabbos!
In-Reply-To: <77094447-0116-1000-878B-A90251CAAAC1-Webmail-10025@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A55E4@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Excellent!

I'll write more tonite.  My days are crazy right now.

Shabbat Shalom.

Hey Kathy, are you aware of the Saturday morning lesson broadcasts?

John C.
"Be Excellent to Each Other!"
????????????????????? Bill & Ted


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 10:28 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Good Shabbos!

Good Shabbos y'all.

We'll, be listening tomorrow.

Shalom,
Denny
_______________________________________________


From mhyde7 at tds.net  Fri Nov 16 11:01:31 2007
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:01:31 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction
Message-ID: <00d701c82872$58805f90$0200a8c0@marvin>

Hello to All,

 

Or as we say in Tennessee  - y'all!   I come from a Pentecostal Background.
Saved and born again by the age of 5-6, a few years later experience being
filled with the spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues just like in
Acts. My father was a minister all of my life until his passing 4 years ago.
When he put his hand to the plow he never looked back, his life was not his
own,  anymore. A good Christian man, very few Christian preachers agreed
with him because he was beginning to faintly see some of the things we, as a
group  see - ( individuals searching for truth, God, and realizing the
institutionalized church by and large had missed it.  At the end of his
rope( the knot) and now mine, what we hold on to in our search -"earnestly
contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints." Jude 3.  My
relationship with my father became really strained by the things I was
seeing right in the text of the KJV.   My journey has taken me back to the
Hebrew roots of my faith, closer to Israel, Judaism and the "synagogue where
Moses is taught every Sabbath."  Do I have the answers? - No!  But, I know
that my search for truth and a closer relationship with God is stronger
today then it would have been if I had stayed in my church, because I would
have spiritually died being fed baby food, 

 

 The turning point in my spiritual walk, was one Sunday morning looking out
the window praying in 1985, searching for God.  If God had shown me all that
I would have gone through, the family and friends I would have given up, the
pain that lay on the road before me, I dare say I would have told God it was
just too much.  However, there is a deep desire that comes from somewhere
deep with in that keeps calling me to God, to the things of God.  As the old
Baptist preacher once said, "How do you know that you're the called and
elect of God?"  You just know it!  In the deepest part of your soul,  you
just know it!!!!"

 

I wake up in the AM and God, scripture, something of a spiritual nature is
on my mind before my feet hit the floor.  My soul is searching  for my
creator.  I live, I work, I have family, children,  I walk through life
trying to point people(that I come into contact with) back to a personal
relationship with God / back to the bible. I mediate daily as I work, on the
things of God - answer's - no!  lots of questions. But, my faith is strong.
God is transforming me daily.   I hope to live long enough in this life to
see the salvation and glory of God established in this physical earth.  Will
I?  Don't know!.  But I do know that  ---     Num 23:19  God is not a man,
that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he
said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it
good?  

 

 

 

 

Shalom!

Marvin

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From info at poweredbyhadavar.com  Fri Nov 16 11:09:37 2007
From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:09:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction
Message-ID: <369830.32910.qm@web1005.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Glad to know you Marvin and you are not alone in this.  You have touched on many things I have felt over the years and G-d is calling us.

Shabbat Shalom

Rick


----- Original Message ----
From: mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 11:01:31 AM
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction




 
 

 

 

 


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Hello to All,
 

  
 

Or
as we say in Tennessee 
 - y?all!   I come from a Pentecostal Background. Saved
and born again by the age of 5-6, a few years later experience being filled with
the spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues just like in Acts. My
father was a minister all of my life until his passing 4 years ago. When he put
his hand to the plow he never looked back, his life was not his own,  anymore.
A good Christian man, very few Christian preachers agreed with him because he
was beginning to faintly see some of the things we, as a group  see ?
( individuals searching for truth, God, and realizing the institutionalized
church by and large had missed it.  At the
end of his rope( the knot) and now mine, what we hold on to in our search -?earnestly
contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.? Jude 3.  My
relationship with my father became really strained by the things I was seeing
right in the text of the KJV.   My journey has taken me back to the
Hebrew roots of my faith, closer to
 Israel , Judaism and the ?synagogue
where Moses is taught every Sabbath.?  Do I have the answers? ?
No!  But, I know that my search for truth and a closer relationship with
God is stronger today then it would have been if I had stayed in my church,
because I would have spiritually died being fed baby food, 
 

  
 

 The
turning point in my spiritual walk, was one Sunday morning looking out the
window praying in 1985, searching for God.  If God had shown me all that I
would have gone through, the family and friends I would have given up, the pain
that lay on the road before me, I dare say I would have told God it was just too
much.  However, there is a deep desire that comes from somewhere deep with
in that keeps calling me to God, to the things of God.  As the old Baptist
preacher once said, ?How do you know that you?re the called and
elect of God??  You just know it!  In the deepest part of your
soul,  you just know it!!!!?
 

  
 

I
wake up in the AM and God, scripture, something of a spiritual nature is on my
mind before my feet hit the floor.  My soul is searching  for my
creator.  I live, I work, I have family, children,  I walk through
life trying to point people(that I come into contact with) back to a personal
relationship with God / back to the bible. I mediate daily as I work, on the
things of God ? answer?s ? no!  lots of questions. But,
my faith is strong. God is transforming me daily.   I hope to live
long enough in this life to see the salvation and glory of God established in
this physical earth.  Will I?  Don?t know!.  But I do know
that  ---     Num
23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the
son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath
he spoken, and will he not make it good?  
 

  
 

  
 

  
 

  
 

Shalom!
 

Marvin
 






-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________




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From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Fri Nov 16 11:11:34 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:11:34 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <00d701c82872$58805f90$0200a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F41A@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Amen, and amen, Marvin! Glad to see another of "like precious faith" on
the journey! I am gladdened by the opportunity to walk with you.
 
Glenn Chatterton

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde
	Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 11:02 AM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction
	
	

	Hello to All,

	 

	Or as we say in Tennessee  - y'all!   I come from a Pentecostal
Background. Saved and born again by the age of 5-6, a few years later
experience being filled with the spirit with the evidence of speaking in
tongues just like in Acts. My father was a minister all of my life until
his passing 4 years ago. When he put his hand to the plow he never
looked back, his life was not his own,  anymore. A good Christian man,
very few Christian preachers agreed with him because he was beginning to
faintly see some of the things we, as a group  see - ( individuals
searching for truth, God, and realizing the institutionalized church by
and large had missed it.  At the end of his rope( the knot) and now
mine, what we hold on to in our search -"earnestly contend for the faith
that was once delivered to the saints." Jude 3.  My relationship with my
father became really strained by the things I was seeing right in the
text of the KJV.   My journey has taken me back to the Hebrew roots of
my faith, closer to Israel, Judaism and the "synagogue where Moses is
taught every Sabbath."  Do I have the answers? - No!  But, I know that
my search for truth and a closer relationship with God is stronger today
then it would have been if I had stayed in my church, because I would
have spiritually died being fed baby food, 

	 

	 The turning point in my spiritual walk, was one Sunday morning
looking out the window praying in 1985, searching for God.  If God had
shown me all that I would have gone through, the family and friends I
would have given up, the pain that lay on the road before me, I dare say
I would have told God it was just too much.  However, there is a deep
desire that comes from somewhere deep with in that keeps calling me to
God, to the things of God.  As the old Baptist preacher once said, "How
do you know that you're the called and elect of God?"  You just know it!
In the deepest part of your soul,  you just know it!!!!"

	 

	I wake up in the AM and God, scripture, something of a spiritual
nature is on my mind before my feet hit the floor.  My soul is searching
for my creator.  I live, I work, I have family, children,  I walk
through life trying to point people(that I come into contact with) back
to a personal relationship with God / back to the bible. I mediate daily
as I work, on the things of God - answer's - no!  lots of questions.
But, my faith is strong. God is transforming me daily.   I hope to live
long enough in this life to see the salvation and glory of God
established in this physical earth.  Will I?  Don't know!.  But I do
know that  ---     Num 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie,
Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he
not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good?  

	 

	 

	 

	 

	Shalom!

	Marvin

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From psalmist7 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 13:13:33 2007
From: psalmist7 at earthlink.net (ArizonaKathy)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:13:33 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] Good Shabbos!
References: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A55E4@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
Message-ID: <005401c82886$514b57c0$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>

Would you give me more info on the morning broadcasts.  If it's for a 
paltalk room,  I may already listen.

thanks,

kathy 



From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 16 13:33:22 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:33:22 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Good Shabbos!
Message-ID: <111620071933.138.473DF08100079FA40000008A22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Kathy,

It's the actual live broadcast of our Shabbot lesson taught by Ross.  It starts at 1030 central time.  Go to the following webpage and you will see the link for SHMA tv.  This is the broadcast link but it only works when we are live.

www.rotsoffaith.org

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from "ArizonaKathy" <psalmist7 at earthlink.net>: -------------- 


> Would you give me more info on the morning broadcasts. If it's for a 
> paltalk room, I may already listen. 
> 
> thanks, 
> 
> kathy 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
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From psalmist7 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 13:31:37 2007
From: psalmist7 at earthlink.net (ArizonaKathy)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:31:37 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] Denominations
References: <111620070613.3512.473D34FB000C5EAC00000DB822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<681520D6-9FF5-4E56-B40D-38DAE7733DA5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01c82889$12044740$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>

Denny,  putting our world into boxes is a Greek mindset way of thinking.   What I glean from your writing is that you and your wife have put yourself into a Hebraic mindset,  G-d is a part of every single aspect of our lives.

Quick example,  put a cheesecake on a table.  On one end of the table is a group of folks from traditional religions foundations.   They immediately form a committe to examine the receipe,  the ingredients,  how the final product might be improved and so on and so forth.

On the other end of the table is a group of Hebrew minded folks,  they say,  where are the forks,  let's eat.

simplistic,  yet maybe not.

I submit for your consideration a teaching that has helped me take many of the boxes I've been comfortable with, out of my life.

http://www.wildbranch.org/Gkhebcla/index.html

kathy
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From psalmist7 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 13:39:56 2007
From: psalmist7 at earthlink.net (ArizonaKathy)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:39:56 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
References: <111420071500.15140.473B0D86000AF04700003B2422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><F59C0FA4-1949-463E-A844-2E927FB4433B@mac.com><012301c82803$58bdb620$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496><AAD8B132-FA10-420D-9C67-6B5FFAC3CAC2@mac.com><008901c82858$511c9580$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
	<85BFCE35-0116-1000-E252-A490D9B3A13B-Webmail-10006@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00fc01c82889$1501a8c0$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>

Thank you Denny for such a kind response.   I fully admit that I'm very wary 
of e-groups right now as there has been so much infighting and just plain 
meanness.

How does that honor the G-d we claim to serve.  Had a long phone 
conversation with an e-friend this morning on this very topic.

If we state boldly that we are Torah Observant yet are unkind,  are we 
truly???  Since Jesus or his Hebrew name Yeshua is the word in flesh, 
shouldn't we be putting on the mind of Messiah....  seems to me that he was 
quite forgiving and compassionate.   Very sad that we  (and I do include 
myself) are not so gracious with one another.

kathy 



From dennyj at mac.com  Fri Nov 16 14:06:33 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:06:33 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Denominations
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c82889$12044740$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
References: <111620070613.3512.473D34FB000C5EAC00000DB822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<681520D6-9FF5-4E56-B40D-38DAE7733DA5@mac.com>
	<00fa01c82889$12044740$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
Message-ID: <66A29830-0116-1000-FFA8-70BCF56B790B-Webmail-10006@mac.com>

Thank you Kathy,

I will read this article this weekend.
You are correct, we are in the Hebrew Roots movement and continuing to learn.
Some of our education has come from D. Thomas Lancaster and FFOZ.
We attend his synagogue sometimes in Hudson, WI. Our son and his family attend there regularly.
Daniel and his family have been to our home on many occasions for sabbath. Maybe you have heard of him.

Good Shabbos to you and yours.

Denny


Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play.

 
On Friday, November 16, 2007, at 01:44PM, "ArizonaKathy" <psalmist7 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>Denny,  putting our world into boxes is a Greek mindset way of thinking.   What I glean from your writing is that you and your wife have put yourself into a Hebraic mindset,  G-d is a part of every single aspect of our lives.
>
>Quick example,  put a cheesecake on a table.  On one end of the table is a group of folks from traditional religions foundations.   They immediately form a committe to examine the receipe,  the ingredients,  how the final product might be improved and so on and so forth.
>
>On the other end of the table is a group of Hebrew minded folks,  they say,  where are the forks,  let's eat.
>
>simplistic,  yet maybe not.
>
>I submit for your consideration a teaching that has helped me take many of the boxes I've been comfortable with, out of my life.
>
>http://www.wildbranch.org/Gkhebcla/index.html
>
>kathy
>


From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Nov 16 14:26:32 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:26:32 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] to be Born Again
Message-ID: <cad.1f02cbe8.346f56f8@aol.com>

 
 
In a message dated 11/16/2007 7:55:27 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
psalmist7 at earthlink.net writes:

Thank  you Ross for a well written post that contained no sarcasm,  or  
accusations.    I'm comfortable being around many diverse  ideas....



Well Kathy, I am glad that you are still with us.  I worked  night shift and 
got up to check and see if you were still on the list.  I  am very glad that 
you are.
 
We will all learn from this list, of that I am certain.  Shalom and  welcome 
again! Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Nov 16 15:29:11 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:29:11 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Live Sabbath Service
Message-ID: <cfb.1fedc7d9.346f65a7@aol.com>

Dear all,
 
I am excited about all of the activity on the list.  It is good to see  that 
people can have a place to discuss matters of faith.  Thanks for  joining us.  
This is truly part of what I see in our "synagogue without  walls". It is a 
place where you can go to read and learn from others. 
 
I also wanted to invite all of you to listen live in the morning for our  
Shabbat Morning Alive Service. Click the link below and you can read all about  
it.  This will bring you to my Audio Torah page where you will find, among  
others things, the links to the live feed.  The live feed link only works  during 
service time.
 
I really hope that you listen in and become part of our family here in  Saint 
Francisville!
 
Shabbat Shalom!
 
_http://rootsoffaith.org/Audio_Torah.htm_ 
(http://rootsoffaith.org/Audio_Torah.htm) 
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 16 15:40:49 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:40:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction - Marvin
In-Reply-To: <00d701c82872$58805f90$0200a8c0@marvin>
References: <00d701c82872$58805f90$0200a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W24C70D962E2ACC0D5D8270BA830@phx.gbl>


Hi Marvin!
 
I've been reading the "dialogue" emails and enjoying them very much, though this is the first time I've written.  I love that you quoted Nu 23:19!  Have you looked at it in Hebrew?  There are two totally different words used in Hebrew, but both are translated into English as "man."    It says:  "...........G-d is not a man (Hebrew, eesh).................nor the son of an adam (Hebrew, ben adam)."  
 
That blew me away the first time I ever saw it!  A ben adam is a human being.  Actually, if I'm not mistaken, just the word adam is used for a human being, a mortal.  So G-d is not a man, nor the son of a human being.  I really had to do some rethinking and repenting after seeing that!  
 
Shabbot Shalom,
 
Pat
 


From: mhyde7 at tds.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:01:31 -0500Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction






Hello to All,
 
Or as we say in Tennessee  - y?all!   I come from a Pentecostal Background. Saved and born again by the age of 5-6, a few years later experience being filled with the spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues just like in Acts. My father was a minister all of my life until his passing 4 years ago. When he put his hand to the plow he never looked back, his life was not his own,  anymore. A good Christian man, very few Christian preachers agreed with him because he was beginning to faintly see some of the things we, as a group  see ? ( individuals searching for truth, God, and realizing the institutionalized church by and large had missed it.  At the end of his rope( the knot) and now mine, what we hold on to in our search -?earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.? Jude 3.  My relationship with my father became really strained by the things I was seeing right in the text of the KJV.   My journey has taken me back to the Hebrew roots of my faith, closer to Israel, Judaism and the ?synagogue where Moses is taught every Sabbath.?  Do I have the answers? ? No!  But, I know that my search for truth and a closer relationship with God is stronger today then it would have been if I had stayed in my church, because I would have spiritually died being fed baby food, 
 
 The turning point in my spiritual walk, was one Sunday morning looking out the window praying in 1985, searching for God.  If God had shown me all that I would have gone through, the family and friends I would have given up, the pain that lay on the road before me, I dare say I would have told God it was just too much.  However, there is a deep desire that comes from somewhere deep with in that keeps calling me to God, to the things of God.  As the old Baptist preacher once said, ?How do you know that you?re the called and elect of God??  You just know it!  In the deepest part of your soul,  you just know it!!!!?
 
I wake up in the AM and God, scripture, something of a spiritual nature is on my mind before my feet hit the floor.  My soul is searching  for my creator.  I live, I work, I have family, children,  I walk through life trying to point people(that I come into contact with) back to a personal relationship with God / back to the bible. I mediate daily as I work, on the things of God ? answer?s ? no!  lots of questions. But, my faith is strong. God is transforming me daily.   I hope to live long enough in this life to see the salvation and glory of God established in this physical earth.  Will I?  Don?t know!.  But I do know that  ---     Num 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good?  
 
 
 
 
Shalom!
Marvin
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Nov 16 15:50:01 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:50:01 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction - Marvin / son of man!
Message-ID: <bcd.1a2c6e15.346f6a89@aol.com>

Hey Pat!
 
Good to see you jumping in here.  I always enjoy reading what you  write on 
other lists and am pleased to see you share this insight here!   Perhaps if you 
have time you could tell the group some things about your own  journey.
 
All week I prepare for the lesson that I will teach in the synagogue on the  
Sabbath and it is funny that you should mention this "son of man".  While I  
usually make the final cut on my notes LATE on Friday night, so far this 
appears  to one of the things I will teach on.....Who is this enigmatic "son of man" 
-  mentioned by Daniel?
 
I really hope that you all can listen in.
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From shdennis at rogers.com  Fri Nov 16 16:06:36 2007
From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:06:36 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Intro and Shabbat Shalom to all!
Message-ID: <005001c8289c$f51c4920$64012b0a@beeblbrox>

Hi Everyone

We (my husband and I), have been on this journey since 1996.   I can identify with most of the dialogue so far, and am so thankful for those who are coming out of Babylon, seeking  the way to Zion.   ---------Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing, unto Zion.!..-----------.

In the book of Daniel we see a 'stone cut from the mountain with no human hand'  -  This reminds me of the individuals ('one from a city,  two from a town'), who are being prepared, disciplined, trained and fashioned, not in any set institution or group, but without human hand.   

Thank you for the podcasts and this Dialogue List!

Shabbat Shalom
Sharon   (Canada)

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Nov 16 16:13:52 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:13:52 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Intro and Shabbat Shalom to all! (Sharon)
Message-ID: <d1f.114ee566.346f7020@aol.com>

Wow!  All the way in Canada/  Is it cold there?  I am so  used to our warm 
climate here in Louisiana that I am wearing long sleeves and it  is about 70 
degrees:)  Almost too cold for me.
 
It is great to have you with us Sharon and I enjoyed reading your  note.  
Welcome to the group!
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From psalmist7 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 16:18:32 2007
From: psalmist7 at earthlink.net (ArizonaKathy)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:18:32 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] Good Shabbos!
References: <111620071933.138.473DF08100079FA40000008A22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <00b001c8289f$be3bcb80$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>

thank you,  

kathy
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From psalmist7 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 16:25:50 2007
From: psalmist7 at earthlink.net (ArizonaKathy)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:25:50 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] Denominations
References: <111620070613.3512.473D34FB000C5EAC00000DB822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><681520D6-9FF5-4E56-B40D-38DAE7733DA5@mac.com><00fa01c82889$12044740$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
	<66A29830-0116-1000-FFA8-70BCF56B790B-Webmail-10006@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00b201c8289f$c14e89c0$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>

Yes,  Denny,  very familiar with them and have much respect.  Was able to 
attend some conferences by FFOZ when I was living in Phoenix,  taking care 
of my parents.

I also appreciate the work of Tim Hegg and John McKee.

I recently learned that Tim Hegg's book,  Paul The Letter Writer is now out 
of print.  I did find it on a home-ed site.  I'm very thankful because I had 
loaned my copy before finishing with it,  and due to a misunderstanding the 
person I loaned it to loaned it to someone else,  forgetting who that was.

kathy 



From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 16 16:30:38 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:30:38 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction - Marvin / son of man!
In-Reply-To: <bcd.1a2c6e15.346f6a89@aol.com>
References: <bcd.1a2c6e15.346f6a89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W3882B0A12206ABBB471454BA830@phx.gbl>


I really want to hear your teaching on the "son of man," Ross!  Can't wait!  And I'll write an into and submit it.  You have some terrific people here!  I'm so glad to be able to participate.
 
Pat


From: RNDAVAR at aol.comDate: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:50:01 -0500Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Introduction - Marvin / son of man!To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Hey Pat!
 
Good to see you jumping in here.  I always enjoy reading what you write on other lists and am pleased to see you share this insight here!  Perhaps if you have time you could tell the group some things about your own journey.
 
All week I prepare for the lesson that I will teach in the synagogue on the Sabbath and it is funny that you should mention this "son of man".  While I usually make the final cut on my notes LATE on Friday night, so far this appears to one of the things I will teach on.....Who is this enigmatic "son of man" - mentioned by Daniel?
 
I really hope that you all can listen in.
 
Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org


See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.
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From ronniefulcher at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 16 22:05:46 2007
From: ronniefulcher at yahoo.com (Ronnie Fulcher)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:05:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <00d701c82872$58805f90$0200a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <394509.57030.qm@web55410.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Marvin
   
  i was in the pentecostal movement since 1974. I too left because of the "no answers". Looks like we are all on the same path.
   
  Ronnie

mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote:
        st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }                Hello to All,
   
  Or as we say in Tennessee  - y?all!   I come from a Pentecostal Background. Saved and born again by the age of 5-6, a few years later experience being filled with the spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues just like in Acts. My father was a minister all of my life until his passing 4 years ago. When he put his hand to the plow he never looked back, his life was not his own,  anymore. A good Christian man, very few Christian preachers agreed with him because he was beginning to faintly see some of the things we, as a group  see ? ( individuals searching for truth, God, and realizing the institutionalized church by and large had missed it.  At the end of his rope( the knot) and now mine, what we hold on to in our search -?earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.? Jude 3.  My relationship with my father became really strained by the things I was seeing right in the text of the KJV.   My journey has taken me back to the Hebrew roots of
 my faith, closer to Israel, Judaism and the ?synagogue where Moses is taught every Sabbath.?  Do I have the answers? ? No!  But, I know that my search for truth and a closer relationship with God is stronger today then it would have been if I had stayed in my church, because I would have spiritually died being fed baby food, 
   
   The turning point in my spiritual walk, was one Sunday morning looking out the window praying in 1985, searching for God.  If God had shown me all that I would have gone through, the family and friends I would have given up, the pain that lay on the road before me, I dare say I would have told God it was just too much.  However, there is a deep desire that comes from somewhere deep with in that keeps calling me to God, to the things of God.  As the old Baptist preacher once said, ?How do you know that you?re the called and elect of God??  You just know it!  In the deepest part of your soul,  you just know it!!!!?
   
  I wake up in the AM and God, scripture, something of a spiritual nature is on my mind before my feet hit the floor.  My soul is searching  for my creator.  I live, I work, I have family, children,  I walk through life trying to point people(that I come into contact with) back to a personal relationship with God / back to the bible. I mediate daily as I work, on the things of God ? answer?s ? no!  lots of questions. But, my faith is strong. God is transforming me daily.   I hope to live long enough in this life to see the salvation and glory of God established in this physical earth.  Will I?  Don?t know!.  But I do know that  ---     Num 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good?  
   
   
   
   
  Shalom!
  Marvin

_______________________________________________


       
---------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 16 23:55:26 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 05:55:26 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction
Message-ID: <111720070555.8276.473E824B0005D50C0000205422230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Marvin,

Welcome to the group.  Isn't it amazing how, no matter where we started, our roads to this place all sound so similar.  God's call is certainly persistent but I have to believe our journey depends largely on our willingness to listen to that still small voice.  The racket of the world, especially that of religion is deafening and there are many still out there that have yet to learn to block it out.  As you say there is much we have to set aside (and I think more will be required) but our prize is a real and personal relationship with the Creator of all things, there is nothing greater.

I'm looking forward to our discussions.

Shabbot Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from "mhyde" <mhyde7 at tds.net>: -------------- 


Hello to All,
 
Or as we say in Tennessee  - y?all!   I come from a Pentecostal Background. Saved and born again by the age of 5-6, a few years later experience being filled with the spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues just like in Acts. My father was a minister all of my life until his passing 4 years ago. When he put his hand to the plow he never looked back, his life was not his own,  anymore. A good Christian man, very few Christian preachers agreed with him because he was beginning to faintly see some of the things we, as a group  see ? ( individuals searching for truth, God, and realizing the institutionalized church by and large had missed it.  At the end of his rope( the knot) and now mine, what we hold on to in our search -?earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.? Jude 3.  My relationship with my father became really strained by the things I was seeing right in the text of the KJV.   My journey has taken me back to the Hebrew roots of my faith, c
loser to Israel, Judaism and the ?synagogue where Moses is taught every Sabbath.?  Do I have the answers? ? No!  But, I know that my search for truth and a closer relationship with God is stronger today then it would have been if I had stayed in my church, because I would have spiritually died being fed baby food, 
 
 The turning point in my spiritual walk, was one Sunday morning looking out the window praying in 1985, searching for God.  If God had shown me all that I would have gone through, the family and friends I would have given up, the pain that lay on the road before me, I dare say I would have told God it was just too much.  However, there is a deep desire that comes from somewhere deep with in that keeps calling me to God, to the things of God.  As the old Baptist preacher once said, ?How do you know that you?re the called and elect of God??  You just know it!  In the deepest part of your soul,  you just know it!!!!?
 
I wake up in the AM and God, scripture, something of a spiritual nature is on my mind before my feet hit the floor.  My soul is searching  for my creator.  I live, I work, I have family, children,  I walk through life trying to point people(that I come into contact with) back to a personal relationship with God / back to the bible. I mediate daily as I work, on the things of God ? answer?s ? no!  lots of questions. But, my faith is strong. God is transforming me daily.   I hope to live long enough in this life to see the salvation and glory of God established in this physical earth.  Will I?  Don?t know!.  But I do know that  ---     Num 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good?  
 
 
 
 
Shalom!
Marvin
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Nov 17 00:39:59 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:39:59 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Trinity
Message-ID: <111720070639.13795.473E8CBC000BD707000035E322230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Thanks Denny,

Man what a wild day.  Sorry I'm so late getting back to ya.

Yeah I've pretty much worked my way out of the trinity concept myself.  So far I have found no direct support for that concept in either the bible or written Hebraic ideology.  The only thing that even closely resembles that concept is a quote from the Gospel of Thomas (which never made it into the canon) regarding blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which makes a loose distinction between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.  So the idea must have been floating around back in that time but was apparently not popular in Jerusalem.  I still believe that Yeshua possesed a special measure of God's spirit and we have discussed in the group that there is something significant in the description of the God's spirit resting on Him.  But I have had to conclude that I simply do not understand the nature of His relationship with the Father beyond the fact that He worshipped the Father as His God.  I think it is more important that we understand His role as Moshiach.

The verse you quoted brought to mind the concept of the Tzadik in rabbinical writings.  The holy state to which all can aspire to but few will achieve.  It is described as ascendancy of the man to God and is a very ascetic lifestyle, not that man actually becomes God but ascends to Him in spirit and becomes as like Him as man can.  I have no trouble seeing Yeshua aspiring to that state and probably achieving it.  That is just a rogue thought that crossed my mind and has little basis in study as yet.  But it is worth looking at.

But as I said that is an academic exercise.  To my mind the real value is in Yeshua's example and His teachings while he walked this earth.  Striving to understand and follow Him is the piece that we "followers of Yeshua" have been missing for a long time.

Hope to hear from ya in the morning.

Shabbot Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com>: -------------- 

John,


I am splitting up my responses to your last message in order to have separate threads of discussion. I appreciate your comments concerning the deity of Christ.
Being raised all my life in a trinitarian upbringing makes it challenging to consider anything else. Our youngest son and also our son-in-law have come to a different conclusion on their own. This caused a lot of serious conversation in our home and a lot of worrying. In the past year I, too, have come to the conclusion that Jesus is not God. I arrived at this place from reading Jesus own words concerning his Father and himself. Particularly revealing are a couple of verses in John 17 and John 20:17.


Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, ?Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.  ?This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17


Jesus said to her, ?Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ?I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.?? John 20:17


There are many others that indicate the same thing but these are starkly clear statements by Jesus himself as to who he worshiped and how he saw himself. Jesus had a God that he worshiped.


There are many interesting websites that I have discovered that shed so much light on this subject and on the history of the development of trinitarian doctrine. I won't go into that here. It is available to any who wish to research it. But this one area of teaching alone would exclude me from any fellowship with most institutional churches today. 


So, John, you are not alone in your thoughts, by any means. I support you in your continued search.


Blessings,
Denny






Personally I am now cogitating over the issue of Yeshua's Diety.  Not so much whether it is the truth as the issue of whether it matters.  One of my stakes in the ground is that Yeshua is the Melech HaMoshiach, the Anointed King, what I have come to learn is that there is very little true understanding of what that actually means in both Christian and Jewish teachings.  So far I have concluded that Christianity in general has actually mis-interpreted the "good news".  Yeshua spent very little time touting or discussing the issue of His diety, His stated ministry was to lead us to the Father.  So while the Christian world is focusing on the idea that God came to earth, died for our sins and was ressurrected (none of which I tacitly deny at this point) we have missed the message that Yeshua Himself was trying to teach us.  The good news is that He came to write the Law on our hearts, that is truly our redemption if we learn to understand and follow it.
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Nov 17 01:06:26 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:06:26 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Intro and Shabbat Shalom to all!
Message-ID: <111720070706.3070.473E92F100046FAA00000BFE22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hello Stephen and Sharon and welcome,

I believe we are definitely living in a time of revelation.  It is a humbling thought to me that God, the maker of all things could possibly fashion me into anything of use for such a mighty pupose.  I certainly have done nothing to deserve such attention, but His ways are His own, it is for me to only obey.  It is exciting, listening is the hard part.

I hope y'all can join in tomorrow.  You should be able to write in any comments or questions you might have during the class.  There are always some of us with laptops or Blackberrys that will be able to pass them on.

Shabbot Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from "Stephen & Sharon" <shdennis at rogers.com>: -------------- 


Hi Everyone

We (my husband and I), have been on this journey since 1996.   I can identify with most of the dialogue so far, and am so thankful for those who are coming out of Babylon, seeking  the way to Zion.   ---------Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing, unto Zion.!..-----------.

In the book of Daniel we see a 'stone cut from the mountain with no human hand'  -  This reminds me of the individuals ('one from a city,  two from a town'), who are being prepared, disciplined, trained and fashioned, not in any set institution or group, but without human hand.   

Thank you for the podcasts and this Dialogue List!

Shabbat Shalom
Sharon   (Canada)
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Nov 17 01:17:49 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:17:49 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
Message-ID: <111720070717.9836.473E959C00017CED0000266C22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Kathy,

I'm also sorry to hear about your losses.  I lost my mother about a year ago.  It was a difficult time in my life and one of the worst parts was wondering whether she was going to be saved or not.  I like to think so.  The subject of the afterlife is very complicated and one that sits at the core of most of our beliefs, I think that is why it isn't really discussed much, treading softly and all that.  But I am willing to get into it if others are.

It is very revealing to learn that the concept of the afterlife in Judaism is very different from the Christian concept.  I have not done a focused study on it but it is hard to not run across it while on other subjects.  What have you been strugggling with?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from "ArizonaKathy" <psalmist7 at earthlink.net>: -------------- 


> When I make a comment with a nod and a wink so to speak, I put it in 
> "quotes" and that's what yout post had done. I was likely coming from 
> my own style of posting. 
> 
> Thanks for clarifying. 
> 
> I've dealt with 5 deaths in a very short time frame and have been 
> disccouraged at the lack of discussion of the after life, G-d is dealing 
> with me regarding heaven and hell. I'm focusing on people dying and 
> goiing to hell becaause they do no hagve a personal relation with Messia 
> 
> 
> does this help openmy concerns. 
> 
> Kathy 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Nov 17 01:31:41 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:31:41 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] to be Born Again
Message-ID: <111720070731.19360.473E98DB000E291200004BA022230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Clyde,

Welcome to the dialogue.  So many topics, so little time!

It is amazing that this mailing list has been open for only 3 days and already we are into most of the deepest subjects concerning the fist century followers of Yeshua.

Here is my take;

When the Law is truly written on our hearts by turning to God and God only in all that we are then we are born anew (again).  Once we are born anew we are changed from the inside out and the results of that restoration can do nothing but flow outward and is therefore the evidence of our hearts made perfect by Gods reclamation of the thrones of our lives from ourselves.  Does this mean that we will never sin again?  Of course not.  Does it give us the right to judge others?  Of course not.  It is by Gods grace alone that we have the Law at all and that it is written on our hearts.  But is our responsibility to recognize it as holy and the goal to be sought after at all cost.

I sent this out in another discussion today and it seems to closely follow what you call phase one.

Whatcha think?

Shabbot Shalom

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from CBrown4465 at aol.com: -------------- 


Hello to all on the list:

Thanks to Ross for opening this dialogue that each of us can reason together out of the word of God, and thereby learn from each other. In following the comments of Ross on being born again from above as recorded in the third chapter of John.  A few comments for each of you on the list to consider, and I am also a student of the word of God as Ross stated of himself, which means we are still learning. In my own studies on this important subject of being born again, it appears to me that there are two phases to being born again.  Perhaps the first phase is recorded in Acts two where by the preaching of Peter and the other Jerusalem apostles three thousand believed and were baptized. The indication is they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit of the living God.  I think this was the beginning of what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet in chapter 31:31-33, where Yahwah God writes his Torah/Law upon the inward parts, and writes it in the hearts of the believers. 

This first phase then begins the process of the new creation that the apostle Paul speaks about. We cannot see the Holy Spirit of God indwelling our hearts, but what we can observe is the work of God through the risen Jesus Christ in the fruits produced in the life of the believer.  The second phase I think is in the resurrection from the dead of those in Christ, or the change for those still alive at his return in the cloud.  Perhaps this can be thought of where a spirit body is given to house the new creation we are in the process of building as the old self is bring overcome. There are a good many scriptures that seem to relate to this two step process. I am open to the comments of others of how each view what it means to be born again.

Clyde Brown   






See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Nov 17 01:51:45 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:51:45 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Denominations
Message-ID: <111720070751.18758.473E9D8D000129120000494622193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Denny,

Yes this new group is definitly an amazing thing.  Who would have though we could have such abroadly flung fellowship in such ashort time.

The issue of fear of losing ones salvation is definitly a fundamental one separating many denominations.  I ran into that early on in my Christian experience when I belonged to a band made up of Baptists and Pentecostals, talk about a touchy subject.  But even more recently I have come to realize that this subject is at the heart of the matter regarding the trinity we talked about earlier.  The argument goes if Yeshua isn't God then how can we be delivered from our fallen state (original sin).  Well now that opens a real can of worms doesn't it.  I have my own opinions on that one.  Anyone care to jump in on it?  For now I will simply say that I have found more liberty under God's true law (the ten commandments and the Torah) than I ever had under man's rule system designed to support and protect ideas that Yeshua never taught.

Well I'm out of gas for today.  Hope to hear from y'all in the morning.

Shabbot Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com>: -------------- 

Good morning, John.


Yes, I have been getting everyone's postings. Thank you for sharing some of your story. This is beginning to seem more like a true fellowship than just a discussion forum. I love it!
This is exactly why I  no longer can fit within the confines of a denominational structure. Each church that we have been a part of has their own creed and doctrinal statement that says "We have this figured out. Here it is and if you believe as we do, you may be a member of our group". Not a very Biblical picture as far as I can tell. 


Having a shared creed means I don't have to think about these things anymore. "Just believe" I am told. When I tell someone in a denominational group what I believe, it creates problems. I am going to enjoy this group because I can feel free to express my thoughts without be judged and because I can know that others will also feel free to share their insights graciously so I can learn from them.


Thanks to Ross, Brian and the supporters at Roots of Faith for providing this venue.


I must state for everyone who feels they need to put me in some kind of category that I am not part of any established denomination or school of thought. Nor is my wife. Because of that we do not attend any particular church. That is quite different from the way we have lived our lives up until a year ago. We have always been involved deeply in church life in multiple capacities since we were married 32 years ago. Some would say that we have lost our faith. Others say that we have been hurt too many times. For us it is just a matter going on a deeper journey with God. I heard someone in the house church movement say the they wished someone would just "hold my head under water until the last religious bubble escapes my lungs." I feel like that is the experience of this past year. I have found my identity in the church most all of my life. To decide not to go to an institutional church on Sundays was a real battle for awhile. Deciding to fellowship on the Biblical Sabbath has brought
 much disdain from our friends and family who can't understand it from their doctrinal positions that they hold many times out of fear but mostly out of convenience. We really are going against the flow it seems by choosing to follow the original Biblical patterns. They accuse us of being Jehovah's Witness or going "back under the law" and "fallen from grace." 


Well, we don't have it all figured out any longer. Don't know that we ever will. We just want to learn more about who God is and what He desires of us. We know that we were created  for more than just trying to get others to join our sectarian clubs.


So, if you are tempted to, please don't try to put us into any spiritual boxes. We don't fit any at this time. ;-)


We look forward to much fruitful discussion and fellowship with you all.


Now, I must go to work. I have a long day ahead of me until Sabbath.


Denny
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From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Sat Nov 17 07:21:17 2007
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:21:17 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] to be Born Again
Message-ID: <c24.262e1b63.347044cd@aol.com>

Hi John:
 
I don't think it could be said any better than you have  stated it.  We are a 
new creation in process, delighting in the  commandment that is Holy, and 
just, and good. There seems to be something  quite marvelously and wonderful 
occurring in this generation. Individuals bring  drawn back toward the faith once 
for all delivered. The second century  neo-Platonic Greek's took Christianity 
down the garden path and left us with a  message of both good and evil.  I 
think the term new covenant is a  misnomer, as well as the terms old and new 
covenant that was coined near the end  of the second century When the commandments 
of Yahweh that were written on  tables of stone are written on our heart, 
what is new, is the indwelling of the  Spirit of the living God. 
 
Therefore, it seems to me that at the most we have a renewal of the  covenant 
at Sinai. What could not be accomplished in the flesh - those  returning to 
the roots of faith are discovering their walk of faith is enabling  them to 
walk out theirs as Yeshua walked out his in obedience to God. So  my appreciation 
goes out to Ross for all that he is doing in teaching the  way the saints 
walked, before Christianity took us down the road toward  apostasy.  And so, 
John, I agree perfectly with all that was said in your  email.
 
Take care
 
Clyde



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 17 14:59:28 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:59:28 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction - Pat
Message-ID: <BAY115-W41B113945C7CE9BB6B8087BA7C0@phx.gbl>


Hi, Everyone! My name is Pat Robbins, and I am thrilled to discover so many new "faces" walking on this same Ancient Path!  Our Father is indeed calling us HOME to our roots.  If not for the Net, we would feel very alone on this journey back to Him.  Perhaps we truly ARE the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, and ARE in the process of being Regathered! When I said, "Net," referring of course to the Internet, it all of a sudden flashed into my mind the picture of fishermen on the Sea of Galilee throwing their nets!  I'm sure this thought occurred to me because of having spent time on Ross's site studying his article, "Fishers of Men."    How apropos that we are being gathered together via the NET!  We were destined to become a very great throng - a "multitude," if you will, according to the prophecy of Genesis 48:16! (See Ross's article!  He explains that the word "multitude," used in Genesis 48:16, has as its root, the Hebrew word, "dag," which means fish!) I've been on this road home for many years now.  I converted to Judaism (though I'm neither encouraging, nordiscouraging anyone else to do so).  I made Aliyah to Israel in the early Nineties, but am now living in the US.  I can testify to those of you who have not been to Israel, that once you go, you will know beyond the shadow of doubt, that you have RETURNED HOME! I am rejoicing in the emails I am reading on Roots of Faith Dialogue.  May the LORD bless and keep you all, and grant you His peace. Love, and Shalom-Shalom (peace inside and outside), Pat   
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Sat Nov 17 16:17:59 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:17:59 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction - Pat
In-Reply-To: <BAY115-W41B113945C7CE9BB6B8087BA7C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <007e01c82967$b65f2c40$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Shabbat Shalom to all of you, near and far!  

 

My name is Betty Givin, but my Hebrew name, which is very special to me, is
Elisheva. Beyond stating my name, I am pretty well speechless except to say
that I have been on this Ancient Path for many years. I am sitting here at
my computer this beautiful Shabbat day in Texas totally in awe by what I am
reading from the Roots of Faith dialogue (which I just joined today).  I can
actually feel not only the excitement coming across the wires, but also the
love and the commitment to learn and to know the Living G-d who is both our
Creator and the very Foundation of our faith.  I can envision G-d lovingly
looking down or out from within each of our hearts), into the eyes of all
His seeking children this Sabbath day, and saying, "Yes, yes, yes---keep
studying, keep talking, and keep living and in living, keep turning to
me---and you will find me if you keep searching with all of your heart, mind
and strength!" 

 

Each Friday evening when I kindle my Sabbath candles, I say a prayer for all
of G-d's children the world over, that we may all have the Divine Presence,
the Schekinah (or Holy Spirit if you will) dwelling in our hearts, our homes
and in our lives and that we will have guidance in raising our children and
grandchildren so that they will grow and "dazzle the world" with Torah and
with good deeds.  I see an answer to this prayer today and it fills me with
gratitude to see the awakening going on across our nation and even into
Canada!

 

I truly believe that G-d is calling us, "two from a family, one from a
town;" and that many of us truly are "the lost sheep of the House of Israel"
that Yeshua came to gather into the fold.  There are so many thoughts and
ideas tumbling around in my head, that there is no way to untangle them at
this point, so I won't even try.  I think I will try to sit back and listen
for awhile.

 

Many Blessings and Shabbat Shalom to all of you,

 

Betty/Elisheva

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 2:59 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction - Pat

 

Hi, Everyone!
 
My name is Pat Robbins, and I am thrilled to discover so many new "faces"
walking on this same Ancient Path!  Our Father is indeed calling us HOME to
our roots.  If not for the Net, we would feel very alone on this journey
back to Him.  Perhaps we truly ARE the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel,
and ARE in the process of being Regathered!
 
When I said, "Net," referring of course to the Internet, it all of a sudden
flashed into my mind the picture of fishermen on the Sea of Galilee throwing
their nets!  I'm sure this thought occurred to me because of having spent
time on Ross's site studying his article, "Fishers of Men."   
 
How apropos that we are being gathered together via the NET!  We were
destined to become a very great throng - a "multitude," if you will,
according to the prophecy of Genesis 48:16! (See Ross's article!  He
explains that the word "multitude," used in Genesis 48:16, has as its root,
the Hebrew word, "dag," which means fish!)
 
I've been on this road home for many years now.  I converted to Judaism
(though I'm neither encouraging, nor
discouraging anyone else to do so).  I made Aliyah to Israel in the early
Nineties, but am now living in the US.  I can testify to those of you who
have not been to Israel, that once you go, you will know beyond the shadow
of doubt, that you have RETURNED HOME!
 
I am rejoicing in the emails I am reading on Roots of Faith Dialogue.  May
the LORD bless and keep you all, and grant you His peace.
 
Love, and Shalom-Shalom (peace inside and outside),
 
Pat
 
  

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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Sat Nov 17 20:19:22 2007
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde7 at tds.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 20:19:22 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction - Pat
In-Reply-To: <007e01c82967$b65f2c40$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <20071117201922.Q5C0I.70994.root@webfep12>

Welcome Betty/ Elisheva and Pat,

Just came in form my family's Thanksgiving dinner tonight. There are so many of us from my parents nine children, we have to start early.   I was sitting on the fireplace hearth in my sisters home and thinking how isolated I am form my family. My father was a minister. I have 3 brothers who are pastors and preachers . Of over 45 people there in attendance tonight, there were 7 preachers in the room, 5 Sunday school teachers and several music makers in the church.  Not a single person in the house who would say they were not a Christian and on their way to heaven.   By all means good people,  some  of the best most sincere and directed Christians you would ever want to meet, know and associate with.  However, there is no religious conversation in the house.....  if so when I walk up it seems to come to an end and back to football or something..    I can deal with them and their positions better then they can deal with me.  I have always wonder about the passage, one from a family two from a town. Yes I did quote that backwards ..... that is what I?m living.  But God is good, and his word will accomplish what it was sent to do.

shalom,


---- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote: 
> Shabbat Shalom to all of you, near and far!  
> 
>  
> 
> My name is Betty Givin, but my Hebrew name, which is very special to me, is
> Elisheva. Beyond stating my name, I am pretty well speechless except to say
> that I have been on this Ancient Path for many years. I am sitting here at
> my computer this beautiful Shabbat day in Texas totally in awe by what I am
> reading from the Roots of Faith dialogue (which I just joined today).  I can
> actually feel not only the excitement coming across the wires, but also the
> love and the commitment to learn and to know the Living G-d who is both our
> Creator and the very Foundation of our faith.  I can envision G-d lovingly
> looking down or out from within each of our hearts), into the eyes of all
> His seeking children this Sabbath day, and saying, "Yes, yes, yes---keep
> studying, keep talking, and keep living and in living, keep turning to
> me---and you will find me if you keep searching with all of your heart, mind
> and strength!" 
> 
>  
> 
> Each Friday evening when I kindle my Sabbath candles, I say a prayer for all
> of G-d's children the world over, that we may all have the Divine Presence,
> the Schekinah (or Holy Spirit if you will) dwelling in our hearts, our homes
> and in our lives and that we will have guidance in raising our children and
> grandchildren so that they will grow and "dazzle the world" with Torah and
> with good deeds.  I see an answer to this prayer today and it fills me with
> gratitude to see the awakening going on across our nation and even into
> Canada!
> 
>  
> 
> I truly believe that G-d is calling us, "two from a family, one from a
> town;" and that many of us truly are "the lost sheep of the House of Israel"
> that Yeshua came to gather into the fold.  There are so many thoughts and
> ideas tumbling around in my head, that there is no way to untangle them at
> this point, so I won't even try.  I think I will try to sit back and listen
> for awhile.
> 
>  
> 
> Many Blessings and Shabbat Shalom to all of you,
> 
>  
> 
> Betty/Elisheva
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 2:59 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Introduction - Pat
> 
>  
> 
> Hi, Everyone!
>  
> My name is Pat Robbins, and I am thrilled to discover so many new "faces"
> walking on this same Ancient Path!  Our Father is indeed calling us HOME to
> our roots.  If not for the Net, we would feel very alone on this journey
> back to Him.  Perhaps we truly ARE the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel,
> and ARE in the process of being Regathered!
>  
> When I said, "Net," referring of course to the Internet, it all of a sudden
> flashed into my mind the picture of fishermen on the Sea of Galilee throwing
> their nets!  I'm sure this thought occurred to me because of having spent
> time on Ross's site studying his article, "Fishers of Men."   
>  
> How apropos that we are being gathered together via the NET!  We were
> destined to become a very great throng - a "multitude," if you will,
> according to the prophecy of Genesis 48:16! (See Ross's article!  He
> explains that the word "multitude," used in Genesis 48:16, has as its root,
> the Hebrew word, "dag," which means fish!)
>  
> I've been on this road home for many years now.  I converted to Judaism
> (though I'm neither encouraging, nor
> discouraging anyone else to do so).  I made Aliyah to Israel in the early
> Nineties, but am now living in the US.  I can testify to those of you who
> have not been to Israel, that once you go, you will know beyond the shadow
> of doubt, that you have RETURNED HOME!
>  
> I am rejoicing in the emails I am reading on Roots of Faith Dialogue.  May
> the LORD bless and keep you all, and grant you His peace.
>  
> Love, and Shalom-Shalom (peace inside and outside),
>  
> Pat
>  
>   
>


From dennyj at mac.com  Sun Nov 18 01:54:35 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 01:54:35 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
Message-ID: <C9827273-E55B-4FF0-A7BD-F9F9BF44A035@mac.com>

Good morning all,

It's almost 2:00 am and Mary Joyce and I just got back from the  
hospital.
One of our granddaughters was involved in a very unusual accident this  
evening.  A large antique postal cabinet with multiple post office  
boxes fell on her embedding one of the door keys into her skull. The  
hospital had to call in the head neurological  surgeon to operate to  
remove it. The head of the key broke through the skull and 2 of the 3  
protective layers around her brain. As the doctor told us all after  
the emergency surgery, "She is one damn lucky little girl!" They are  
keeping her for a couple of days on special medication to make sure  
she doesn't get any infection and watch for unusual pressure on her  
brain. We would all covet your prayers for her recovery. Her name is  
Mady and she is 7 years old.
I'd send a picture of what what she looked like with the key in her  
head but you would probably get sick.

Thanks for your support in this matter. We will be at the hospital  
most of the day tomorrow.

Shalom and thanks.

Denny and Mary Joyce




From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sun Nov 18 05:11:55 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:11:55 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
Message-ID: <c04.23b8c906.347177fb@aol.com>

Wow!  Thank God she is okay!  I will certainly pray for  her.
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov 18 08:58:09 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:58:09 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <C9827273-E55B-4FF0-A7BD-F9F9BF44A035@mac.com>
References: <C9827273-E55B-4FF0-A7BD-F9F9BF44A035@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1014059600-1195398009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1905646915-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Man, I echo Ross's response!  Please keep us updated as you can, we will be praying for her and y'all.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com>

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 01:54:35 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request


Good morning all,

It's almost 2:00 am and Mary Joyce and I just got back from the  
hospital.
One of our granddaughters was involved in a very unusual accident this  
evening.  A large antique postal cabinet with multiple post office  
boxes fell on her embedding one of the door keys into her skull. The  
hospital had to call in the head neurological  surgeon to operate to  
remove it. The head of the key broke through the skull and 2 of the 3  
protective layers around her brain. As the doctor told us all after  
the emergency surgery, "She is one damn lucky little girl!" They are  
keeping her for a couple of days on special medication to make sure  
she doesn't get any infection and watch for unusual pressure on her  
brain. We would all covet your prayers for her recovery. Her name is  
Mady and she is 7 years old.
I'd send a picture of what what she looked like with the key in her  
head but you would probably get sick.

Thanks for your support in this matter. We will be at the hospital  
most of the day tomorrow.

Shalom and thanks.

Denny and Mary Joyce


_______________________________________________

From tsbcroley at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 18 09:06:21 2007
From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 07:06:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from Alabama
Message-ID: <218426.41387.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hello Everyone,
   My name is Tammy Croley and my husband, Bruce, and I live in Greenville, Alabama.  I guess that I will start by telling all of you a bit about us.  We started on this "Way" about 3 years ago.  It really began with Bruce, as he was the first to really begin to question some Sunday school literature that he was preparing to teach from.  He had always had some questions, but growing up as the son of a Baptist preacher, you simply didn't ask them.  He began to search for answers, but they just weren't there.............the statements in the Sunday school material just couldn't be verified.  He began talking to folks in chat rooms on pal talk and suddenly he realized that there was something else out there.  We initially began by listening to some messianic services on the internet, but wished that we had somewhere to go.  We finally did find a messianic congregation about 70 miles from us and decided to visit.  We were totally thrilled............this seemed to be just what
 we were looking for.  Our entire family (daughter and son) fell for the teachings and the people.  We thought that we had found our "home".  It was our home until about 2 months ago.  This was when we realized that we were wanting to travel on a different path than the rest of the congregation.  We wanted more Torah observant than the rest and we didn't want a messianic "church".   We had left the church years ago and didn't wish to return.  This seemed to be the direction that the congregation was heading and the issue concerning the deity of Yeshua was at the forefront.  People were being questioned about their beliefs on the subject and if they didn't believe that Yeshua was G-d, then they were made to feel unwelcome.  I personally don't think that this should matter..........we can believe that Yeshua is the Messiah without believing that he is G-d.  We were not pushed on the issue, but saw how others were being treated and decided that this wasn't the place for us
 anymore.  It was hard to leave............... we had always either had a church to attend or this messianic congregation.  Suddenly, we were left to study at home.  We had been listening to Joe Good and the others on the Universal Torah Network for some time and so  we did have some teaching to partake of.   Joe Good's wife, Debbie, was actually the one who told me about Ross.
I had expressed to her my need for a congregation to attend on Shabbat and she said that Roots of Faith had "live" Sabbath services.  I listened in for the first time 2 weeks ago and was thrilled.  It was almost like being there!!
I emailed Ross and he told me that they were working on ways to make it so that we could all be more a part of the services and this week we got to sign up for this dialogue venue.  I am thanking G-d for my "new' congregation and believe that this dialogue venue will give all of us a way to get to know each better and ask those questions that we want to ask without fear of judgment.
Goodbye for now.
Shalom to all,
Tammy Croley
 

  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.
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From tsbcroley at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 18 09:11:07 2007
From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 07:11:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <C9827273-E55B-4FF0-A7BD-F9F9BF44A035@mac.com>
Message-ID: <276960.60816.qm@web57103.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Denny,
   We will be keeping Mady in our prayers.  Please update us on her condition as soon as you can.  
Shalom,
Tammy C.

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote: Good morning all,

It's almost 2:00 am and Mary Joyce and I just got back from the  
hospital.
One of our granddaughters was involved in a very unusual accident this  
evening.  A large antique postal cabinet with multiple post office  
boxes fell on her embedding one of the door keys into her skull. The  
hospital had to call in the head neurological  surgeon to operate to  
remove it. The head of the key broke through the skull and 2 of the 3  
protective layers around her brain. As the doctor told us all after  
the emergency surgery, "She is one damn lucky little girl!" They are  
keeping her for a couple of days on special medication to make sure  
she doesn't get any infection and watch for unusual pressure on her  
brain. We would all covet your prayers for her recovery. Her name is  
Mady and she is 7 years old.
I'd send a picture of what what she looked like with the key in her  
head but you would probably get sick.

Thanks for your support in this matter. We will be at the hospital  
most of the day tomorrow.

Shalom and thanks.

Denny and Mary Joyce


_______________________________________________



  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

       
---------------------------------
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov 18 10:02:43 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 16:02:43 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from Alabama
In-Reply-To: <218426.41387.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <218426.41387.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2045207760-1195401857-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1598504624-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Tammy,

I can relate to your experience with leaving your last church Tammy.  There are always close friendships involved which inevitably get strained or damaged.

It wasn't so hard for me to leave the church itself, I had had enough of the "clubhouse" environment.  I was tired of having to follow the agenda's of "leaders" who said they were following Jesus but their roads always seemed to involve personal gain.  I searched for a long time for a church that truly let G-d's Spirit lead.  Thought I had found it and then, like your experience, man's ambitions began creeping in.  Heavy sigh.

Anyway, that is why I personnaly love our group.  There is no pretense.  We are clear to everyone that while we are a congregation, we are not a church in the modern, traditional sense.  We try to emulate the early congregations of Yeshua's followers as we best understand them.  We are a study group that is open to the leading of the Holy Spirit and want to remain so.  The benefits of that approach are making themselves obvious in this new dialogue.

It is wonderful to me that there are so many others in so many places looking for or experiencing the same thing.  When you are isolated you begin to doubt your convictions.  G-d is good to His people and lifts them up through each other.

Baruch HaShem!

Shalom.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Tammy & Bruce Croley <tsbcroley at yahoo.com>

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 07:06:21 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from Alabama


Hello Everyone,
?? My name is Tammy Croley and my husband, Bruce, and I live in Greenville, Alabama.? I guess that I will start by telling all of you a bit about us.? We started on this "Way" about 3 years ago.? It really began with Bruce, as he was the first to really begin to question some Sunday school literature that he was preparing to teach from.? He had always had some questions, but growing up as the son of a Baptist preacher, you simply didn't ask them.? He began to search for answers, but they just weren't there.............the statements in the Sunday school material just couldn't be verified.? He began talking to folks in chat rooms on pal talk and suddenly he realized that there was something else out there.? We initially began by listening to some messianic services on the internet, but wished that we had somewhere to go.? We finally did find a messianic congregation about 70 miles from us and decided to visit.? We were totally thrilled............this seemed to be just what we were looking for.? Our entire family (daughter and son) fell for the teachings and the people.? We thought that we had found our "home".? It was our home until about 2 months ago.? This was when we realized that we were wanting to travel on a different path than the rest of the congregation.? We wanted more Torah observant than the rest and we didn't want a messianic "church".?? We had left the church years ago and didn't wish to return.? This seemed to be the direction that the congregation was heading and the issue concerning the deity of Yeshua was at the forefront.? People were being questioned about their beliefs on the subject and if they didn't believe that Yeshua was G-d, then they were made to feel unwelcome.? I personally don't think that this should matter..........we can believe that Yeshua is the Messiah without believing that he is G-d.? We were not pushed on the issue, but saw how others were being treated and decided that this wasn't the place for us anymore.? It was hard to leave............... we had always either had a church to attend or this messianic congregation.? Suddenly, we were left to study at home.? We had been listening to Joe Good and the others on the Universal Torah Network for some time and so? we did have some teaching to partake of.?? Joe Good's wife, Debbie, was actually the one who told me about Ross.
I had expressed to her my need for a congregation to attend on Shabbat and she said that Roots of Faith had "live" Sabbath services.? I listened in for the first time 2 weeks ago and was thrilled.? It was almost like being there!!
I emailed Ross and he told me that they were working on ways to make it so that we could all be more a part of the services and this week we got to sign up for this dialogue venue.? I am thanking G-d for my "new' congregation and believe that this dialogue venue will give all of us a way to get to know each better and ask those questions that we want to ask without fear of judgment.
Goodbye for now.
Shalom to all,
Tammy Croley
 

 

? 
? 
? 
? 
? 
? 
? 
? 
? 
?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."?  
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2
 
----------------
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your homepage. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> _______________________________________________


From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov 18 10:36:32 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 16:36:32 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
Message-ID: <111820071636.1715.47406A100009A369000006B322216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Amen and amen!
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Nov 18 10:41:02 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:41:02 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <1014059600-1195398009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1905646915-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <00bf01c82a01$cec12f00$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Denny and Mary Joyce, my prayers will be with little Mady and your family as
well.  Having been blessed with many grandchildren, I know how special they
are and when one of them is hurt,it makes us feel so powerless to help.
Baruch HaShem that your Mady came thru the surgery with such flying colors.
May the Almighty continue to keep her in the shelter of his Wings and bless
her with complete healing.  Thank-you for giving us the opportunity to pray.
We look forward to hearing the news of her going home to her family.  Love
and Blessings, Betty/Elisheva


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 8:58 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request

Man, I echo Ross's response!  Please keep us updated as you can, we will be
praying for her and y'all.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com>

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 01:54:35 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request


Good morning all,

It's almost 2:00 am and Mary Joyce and I just got back from the  
hospital.
One of our granddaughters was involved in a very unusual accident this  
evening.  A large antique postal cabinet with multiple post office  
boxes fell on her embedding one of the door keys into her skull. The  
hospital had to call in the head neurological  surgeon to operate to  
remove it. The head of the key broke through the skull and 2 of the 3  
protective layers around her brain. As the doctor told us all after  
the emergency surgery, "She is one damn lucky little girl!" They are  
keeping her for a couple of days on special medication to make sure  
she doesn't get any infection and watch for unusual pressure on her  
brain. We would all covet your prayers for her recovery. Her name is  
Mady and she is 7 years old.
I'd send a picture of what what she looked like with the key in her  
head but you would probably get sick.

Thanks for your support in this matter. We will be at the hospital  
most of the day tomorrow.

Shalom and thanks.

Denny and Mary Joyce


_______________________________________________




From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 18 11:54:26 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:54:26 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <C9827273-E55B-4FF0-A7BD-F9F9BF44A035@mac.com>
References: <C9827273-E55B-4FF0-A7BD-F9F9BF44A035@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W23551E992361D6949CD1DBBA7D0@phx.gbl>


Denny and Mary Joyce, I just read your email this morning.  I will be praying for your precious little Mady, and thanking G-d for her.  Please keep us updated.  I will check my mail when I get in this evening.   Love, Pat > From: dennyj at mac.com> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 01:54:35 -0600> Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request> > Good morning all,> > It's almost 2:00 am and Mary Joyce and I just got back from the > hospital.> One of our granddaughters was involved in a very unusual accident this > evening. A large antique postal cabinet with multiple post office > boxes fell on her embedding one of the door keys into her skull. The > hospital had to call in the head neurological surgeon to operate to > remove it. The head of the key broke through the skull and 2 of the 3 > protective layers around her brain. As the doctor told us all after > the emergency surgery, "She is one damn lucky little girl!" They are > keeping her for a couple of days on special medication to make sure > she doesn't get any infection and watch for unusual pressure on her > brain. We would all covet your prayers for her recovery. Her name is > Mady and she is 7 years old.> I'd send a picture of what what she looked like with the key in her > head but you would probably get sick.> > Thanks for your support in this matter. We will be at the hospital > most of the day tomorrow.> > Shalom and thanks.> > Denny and Mary Joyce> > > _______________________________________________
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 18 11:56:40 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:56:40 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Marvin's welcome ~
Message-ID: <BAY115-W377C991ADFAB0FEEA14B4DBA7D0@phx.gbl>


Thank you, Marvin!  And your story sounds so very familiar.  My family was always united in our love of G-d.  But I was the one who couldn't ever leave well enough alone!  I wanted to follow hard after Him, and I just never could quit digging!  I was surprised and amazed at where I wound up.  I was also naive enough to believe that EVERYONE I knew who loved G-d would be absolutely astounded when I told them what I'd found!  ......................They were - but NOT in the way I expected them to be! My husband was though.  He was wonderful and we walked the Path together.  He died suddenly and quite unexpectedly, only a few years after our conversion.  My sister, whom I love very much, actually told me shortly after his death that Ron was in hell and it was my fault. I knew better, of course, but it hurt because someone I loved dearly felt they had to say that.  We are still a close family, but there remains a separation I wish could be healed.  However, on the good news side, my young nephew studied and searched, and wound up on the same ancient Path that his uncle and I walked.  So, there are two of us again!  And we live in different towns!  Two from a family, one from a city! I can truly say that I love and appreciate Yeshua for who he was and what he did.  But I don't believe, according to Scripture, that he is G-d.  If I'm wrong, I will be ecstatic to admit it!  It's not that much fun being isolated from family and friends.  I walk this Path because it is the only honorable thing I can do in light of what I've found. By "this Path," I don't mean my conversion to Judaism.  That is a very personal thing.  I'm speaking of returning to our Father.   I may be sharing to much to soon, but hopefully honest, straight-forward dialogue will be good for all concerned on this list.  If we can look ino each other's hearts, surely we can find a way to communicate effectively. Shavua tov (have a good week), Pat   
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 18 13:05:40 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:05:40 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from Alabama
In-Reply-To: <218426.41387.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <218426.41387.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W42CA0418CD701D3BC44D38BA7D0@phx.gbl>


I would like to extend a warm welcome to you, Tammy and Bruce.  It's so lovely to see new congregants coming in the "doors" of this incredible synagogue without walls!  It truly seems we have all had very similar experiences.  As I read your note below, I was remembering events in my own life.  The similarities made me start wondering.........
 
You know how at the end of Malachi it says that Elijah will come and return the heart (singular) of the fathers to the children and the heart (singular) of the children to the fathers?   I'm wondering if this singular heart that we will all seem to have in common with each other and with our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, relates to the work of Elijah beginning in our time?   It's his job to unite us and that seems to be happening.  Perhps we will live to see him appear?   
 
When you think about it, his work while he was here before was to wake up the Northern Kingdom of the House of Israel and make them chose whom they would serve:  Baal or the L-RD.   We are quite likely the descendants of those very people since they were destined to become the Lost Tribes.  And we are chosing to serve the G-d of our fathers.
 
I don't know.  I'm just wondering.   It's an interesting thought.
 
Love,
 
Pat    


Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 07:06:21 -0800From: tsbcroley at yahoo.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] Hello from AlabamaHello Everyone,   My name is Tammy Croley and my husband, Bruce, and I live in Greenville, Alabama.  I guess that I will start by telling all of you a bit about us.  We started on this "Way" about 3 years ago.  It really began with Bruce, as he was the first to really begin to question some Sunday school literature that he was preparing to teach from.  He had always had some questions, but growing up as the son of a Baptist preacher, you simply didn't ask them.  He began to search for answers, but they just weren't there.............the statements in the Sunday school material just couldn't be verified.  He began talking to folks in chat rooms on pal talk and suddenly he realized that there was something else out there.  We initially began by listening to some messianic services on the internet, but wished that we had somewhere to go.  We finally did find a messianic congregation about 70 miles from us and decided to visit.  We were totally thrilled............this seemed to be just what we were looking for.  Our entire family (daughter and son) fell for the teachings and the people.  We thought that we had found our "home".  It was our home until about 2 months ago.  This was when we realized that we were wanting to travel on a different path than the rest of the congregation.  We wanted more Torah observant than the rest and we didn't want a messianic "church".   We had left the church years ago and didn't wish to return.  This seemed to be the direction that the congregation was heading and the issue concerning the deity of Yeshua was at the forefront.  People were being questioned about their beliefs on the subject and if they didn't believe that Yeshua was G-d, then they were made to feel unwelcome.  I personally don't think that this should matter..........we can believe that Yeshua is the Messiah without believing that he is G-d.  We were not pushed on the issue, but saw how others were being treated and decided that this wasn't the place for us anymore.  It was hard to leave............... we had always either had a church to attend or this messianic congregation.  Suddenly, we were left to study at home.  We had been listening to Joe Good and the others on the Universal Torah Network for some time and so  we did have some teaching to partake of.   Joe Good's wife, Debbie, was actually the one who told me about Ross.I had expressed to her my need for a congregation to attend on Shabbat and she said that Roots of Faith had "live" Sabbath services.  I listened in for the first time 2 weeks ago and was thrilled.  It was almost like being there!!I emailed Ross and he told me that they were working on ways to make it so that we could all be more a part of the services and this week we got to sign up for this dialogue venue.  I am thanking G-d for my "new' congregation and believe that this dialogue venue will give all of us a way to get to know each better and ask those questions that we want to ask without fear of judgment.Goodbye for now.Shalom to all,Tammy Croley
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                          Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2


Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. 
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From Shimmy at dslextreme.com  Sun Nov 18 15:48:26 2007
From: Shimmy at dslextreme.com (Shimmy)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:48:26 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] remnant coming home 
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1255038945.4773.dialogue@rootsoffaith.org>

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From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Sun Nov 18 18:22:57 2007
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:22:57 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Wonderful testimonies
Message-ID: <cf7.20754a3c.34723161@aol.com>

My name is Clyde and my wife is Ruth and as you might expect we both share  
Brown as out last name. 
 
Special thanks to Ross for setting up the list for dialoguing.  My  journey 
began when I listened to broadcasts from the World Wide Church of God  [WCOG} 
in Pasadena California. Next year will be 50 years from the time I  began to 
keep the seventh Day Sabbath and the calendar festivals of God. It  was also as 
a member of the WCOG I learned about the lost sheep of the house of  Israel.  
As a result of various corruptions in subjects of theology  and iron handed 
dictatorial rule my wife Ruth and I left the WCOG in  1974. I have been a member 
of the UIWU since 2003, where I met serious  Torah observant folks. I met 
Ross there and have enjoyed many interesting  conversations with Ross and James 
Tabor. It is thrilling to hear the stories of  so many being drawn to the roots 
of faith.  Although I no longer believe  Yeshua/Jesus is God, I do believe he 
is the messiah sent by God.   Nevertheless I have friends that do not believe 
Yeshua/Jesus is the messiah and  that in this day and age does not hinder my 
love and respect for their belief,  and their respect for mine. 
 
I suppose as time goes on in our dialogues from each participate we might  
experience a little iron sharpening iron, but isn't that the way we learn from  
each other. What is so clear from every response I have read, all are seeking  
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the Truth of God. I have learned 
the  hard way that more is gained from listening to others than listening to  
myself.  So, I'm hearing each of you, welcome to all. 
 
Clyde   



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov 18 18:52:40 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 00:52:40 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Wonderful testimonies
Message-ID: <111920070052.25100.4740DE58000396060000620C22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Clyde,

I am at the place where I am not sure just what a Messiah even looks like, let alone whether Godship belongs on the resume! As I have told others, my current theoogy is taken directly from Jeremiah 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

I am done with playing at church and religion and things I think might please G-d.... I simply want to know Him in the way He has ordained and instructed. I want nothing more than that.

Glenn
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 18 20:25:15 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:25:15 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] remnant coming home
In-Reply-To: <BAY0-MC10-F175it6Ve0012255c@bay0-mc10-f17.bay0.hotmail.com>
References: <BAY0-MC10-F175it6Ve0012255c@bay0-mc10-f17.bay0.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W112ACB879CDFB0260B1096BA7E0@phx.gbl>


Wonderful letter, Shimmy!  I so love your point that the dry bones will be awakening among the idols!  That seems to pretty well sum up our situation!
 
Best,
 
Pat 


Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:48:26 -0800To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgFrom: Shimmy at dslextreme.comSubject: [Dialogue] remnant coming home Dear Friends, Shalom!In the few exchanges on this list so far, it seems that all of us on this list have one commonality, we are all feeling, sensing "a summoning" and a calling from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to turn or return unto Him.  This "calling" is and was coming through Christian teachings for many, for that is where most, if not all us have started to wake up.  Interestingly, that was the the Haftara for last week, when this list started, Hosea 11:7-14:10.  The Stone Chumash gives a clearer translation of this Haftara, seemingly, coincidentally, re the issues this lot is experiencing and wrestling with:  "My people is unsure about returning to Me. It is summoned to the Most High One, but it does not rise in unity. How can I give you over. O Ephraim, hand you over O Israel, how can I make you like Admah, set you like Zeboim? My heart is transformed within Me, my regrets were stirred up all at once.  I will not carry out My burning wrath, I will not return to destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not man, the Holy One within you, and I will not come to [a different] city.  They will follow HeShem [when He calls] like a roaring lion, for when He roars, the children will hasten form the west.  They will hasten like a bird from Egypt and like a dove from Assyria; and I shall return them to their homes, the words of HaShem."  (Hos. 11:7-11)."   Another most important part of this Haftara  is: "........ In Beth El He fill find us, and there He will speak with us." (Hos. 12:5). This translation is in the future tense, but it can be rendered in the "prophetic" past tense as well as in the KJV, i.e. that God spoke with us, to us and about us in Beth El, and will do so in the future  when we look back to this instruction of Jacob to his progeny in the last days. (See. Genesis 28). In my walk "homeward," the realization that I came to was that "Jacob is telling his sons, on their way to Beth El, the House of God, to bury their idols. Interestingly, this burying of idols took place in Shechem. This is the very place where Joseph's bones were to be buried.  Figuratively speaking, when these bones come to life, (Ezekiel 37)  they will be awakening among these very idols. I saw that in this movement  we, part of the "remnant," will have to follow our father Jacob and wrestle as well with the powers emanating from these idols. In any case, that was part of my walk, I saw that I had to make a choice between, church or Israel, and I did not see them being compatible.  In fact, the church that I was part of for many years, fell apart exactly for that reason. They knew about the identity of the Tribes, but could not hold indefinitely to both the Israel identity, return to the Torah, and being "the true church" at the same time.  In my walk, I had to make that choice.  May we be all guided by the holy Spirit of God in finding our way to Beth El. That is it for now,May we all have a meaningful Thanksgiving. Shimmy 
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From dennyj at mac.com  Sun Nov 18 20:30:47 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:30:47 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <BAY115-W23551E992361D6949CD1DBBA7D0@phx.gbl>
References: <C9827273-E55B-4FF0-A7BD-F9F9BF44A035@mac.com>
	<BAY115-W23551E992361D6949CD1DBBA7D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6C4F387E-5EAA-425F-BE15-BB1A96281E9A@mac.com>

Hello all,

We are home.  Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy.  
It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features.  
You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find  
photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own  
facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch  
with each other.

Shavua Tov,

Denny and Mary Joyce
Minneapolis

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight



From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 18 20:45:37 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:45:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <6C4F387E-5EAA-425F-BE15-BB1A96281E9A@mac.com>
References: <C9827273-E55B-4FF0-A7BD-F9F9BF44A035@mac.com>
	<BAY115-W23551E992361D6949CD1DBBA7D0@phx.gbl> 
	<6C4F387E-5EAA-425F-BE15-BB1A96281E9A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W47C1BB1B1A0307A13F667BA7E0@phx.gbl>


So glad to hear that Mady is doing well tonight, and am looking forward to using the facebook.  I will love seeing the photos!
 
Best,
 
Pat> From: dennyj at mac.com> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:30:47 -0600> > Hello all,> > We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy. > It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.> All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features. > You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.> Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find > photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.> Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own > facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch > with each other.> > Shavua Tov,> > Denny and Mary Joyce> Minneapolis> > http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight> > _______________________________________________
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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sun Nov 18 22:00:53 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:00:53 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] A copy of the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew 
Message-ID: <d05.1fea12d1.34726475@aol.com>

Shalom to all - 
 
    I have a MINT edition of George Howard's, "Hebrew Gospel of Matthew," 
hardcover, published in 1995.  If anyone's interested in it, please email me 
privately.
 
    Also, among many other 'goodies,' I will be moving out, I have the 
following, too:
 
1. "The Encyclopedia of Apolcalypticism - Volume 1, The Origins of 
Apolcalypticism in Judaism and Christianity." edited by John Collins
 
2. "The Book of Enoch or Enoch 1" by R. H. Charles
 
    Both are paperback, and are unused.  Give me a shout if they interest you.
 
            Hanoch






************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From tsbcroley at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 00:36:46 2007
From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:36:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <6C4F387E-5EAA-425F-BE15-BB1A96281E9A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <786259.80390.qm@web57103.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Denny,
   I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in prayer and I hope that she soon goes home.
Shalom and blessings,
Tammy Croley

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote: Hello all,

We are home.  Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy.  
It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features.  
You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find  
photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own  
facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch  
with each other.

Shavua Tov,

Denny and Mary Joyce
Minneapolis

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight

_______________________________________________



  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

       
---------------------------------
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Mon Nov 19 08:22:41 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:22:41 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <6C4F387E-5EAA-425F-BE15-BB1A96281E9A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5600@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

I am glad she is going to be alright, Baruch HaShem.

We'll look into Facebook.  Only one of us here has a Mac.  We are in the process of instituting Google Talk to facilitate questions and answers during the service.  More on that later.

I forgot to answer your other question on my recording venue.  I have a Mackie Digital 8 Bus system that I use for recording.  I just use my PC and Cakewalk for mixdown.  But we'll see how we can get things together.

Have a great week and give Mady our love.

John C.
"Be Excellent to Each Other!"
????????????????????? Bill & Ted


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 8:31 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request

Hello all,

We are home.  Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy.  
It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features.  
You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find  
photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own  
facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch  
with each other.

Shavua Tov,

Denny and Mary Joyce
Minneapolis

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight

_______________________________________________


From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon Nov 19 18:37:23 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:37:23 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <786259.80390.qm@web57103.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011601c82b0d$8473f420$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady's recovery.  Baruch HaShem for His
blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!

I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady's parents must be so relieved.  Love &
Blessings, Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request

 

Denny,
   I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to hear
that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in prayer and I
hope that she soon goes home.
Shalom and blessings,
Tammy Croley

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:

Hello all,

We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy. 
It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features. 
You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find 
photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own 
facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch 
with each other.

Shavua Tov,

Denny and Mary Joyce
Minneapolis

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight

_______________________________________________






 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my
every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very
good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely
dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do
only His will."  

                                                          Rabbi Nachman's
Wisdom 2

  

  _____  

Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51732/*http:/overview.mail.yahoo.com/>  how.

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From dennyj at mac.com  Mon Nov 19 20:00:58 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:00:58 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <011601c82b0d$8473f420$653c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <011601c82b0d$8473f420$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <54E50F3B-558A-4E00-9CD4-9D282168F78F@mac.com>

Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady.

In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on the  
kids Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else but the  
friends in the group can access the information. So I quickly put  
together a web page with pictures of Mady before and after her  
accident. No we have a family with bald heads as many are shaving  
their heads in support of our Mady. I won't post those at this time. ;-)

Here is the link.
http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html

Shalom,
Denny


On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:

> Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady?s recovery.  Baruch HaShem  
> for His blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!
> I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady?s parents must be so relieved.   
> Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
>
> Denny,
>    I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to  
> hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in  
> prayer and I hope that she soon goes home.
> Shalom and blessings,
> Tammy Croley
>
> Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy.
> It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
> All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features.
> You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
> Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find
> photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
> Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own
> facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch
> with each other.
>
> Shavua Tov,
>
> Denny and Mary Joyce
> Minneapolis
>
> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I  
> place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His  
> will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things  
> go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires  
> otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."
>                                                           Rabbi  
> Nachman's Wisdom 2
>
>
> Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail.  
> See how.
> _______________________________________________

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon Nov 19 20:20:29 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:20:29 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <54E50F3B-558A-4E00-9CD4-9D282168F78F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <012d01c82b1b$ec05e5e0$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Oh Denny, it is one thing to read a description about the freak accident,
but quite another to actually see the pictures and to see what a beautiful
little girl Mady is!  Baruch HaShem that she is going to be okay! It looks
like she has a lot of great family support.  As I said before, it is a true
miracle that she is alive!  I think it is very special that so many in your
family are shaving their heads in support of Mady.  A number of years ago,
my husband's niece, who was 14 yrs old at the time, had a brain tumor and of
course had to have her head shaved for the surgery.  His family sent us the
cutest picture of her and her dad, arms around each other-both bald!  Sarah
is in her mid-twenties now and is doing wonderfully!  Thanks so much for
sharing and for sending us the pictures and for giving us the opportunity to
pray.  I feel like we know you and you are a part of our family.

 

As an aside, I noticed you and your wife are from Minneapolis.  My husband,
Roger, and I spent a lot of time up there up until last year, working for
American Family Insurance in Eden Prairie.  I wish we could have know you
then.  Take care, please keep us posted and anytime you want to share
pictures, that would be a special blessing!  Love, shalom and many
blessings, Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 8:01 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request

 

Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady.

 

In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on the kids
Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else but the friends in
the group can access the information. So I quickly put together a web page
with pictures of Mady before and after her accident. No we have a family
with bald heads as many are shaving their heads in support of our Mady. I
won't post those at this time. ;-)

 

Here is the link.

http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html

 

Shalom,

Denny

 

 

On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:





Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady's recovery.  Baruch HaShem for His
blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!

I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady's parents must be so relieved.  Love &
Blessings, Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request

 

Denny,
   I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to hear
that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in prayer and I
hope that she soon goes home.
Shalom and blessings,
Tammy Croley

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:

Hello all,

We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy. 
It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features. 
You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find 
photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own 
facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch 
with each other.

Shavua Tov,

Denny and Mary Joyce
Minneapolis

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005
<http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight> &highlight

_______________________________________________







 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my
every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very
good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely
dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do
only His will." 

                                                          Rabbi Nachman's
Wisdom 2

 

  _____  

Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51732/*http:/overview.mail.yahoo.com/>  how.

_______________________________________________



 

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From tsbcroley at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 20:34:50 2007
From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:34:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <54E50F3B-558A-4E00-9CD4-9D282168F78F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <651946.55141.qm@web57112.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Denny,
   Thank you for the photos......it is so wonderful to be able to put a face with her sweet name.  I repeat that I am so thankful that she is doing OK.  Praise G-d that her injury wasn't more severe.  My prayers will continue to be for Mady and all of your family.  
Shalom and blessings,
Tammy


Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote: Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady.

In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on the kids Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else but the friends in the group can access the information. So I quickly put together a web page with pictures of Mady before and after her accident. No we have a family with bald heads as many are shaving their heads in support of our Mady. I won't post those at this time. ;-)


Here is the link.
http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html


Shalom,
Denny




On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:

Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady?s recovery.  Baruch HaShem for His blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!
I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady?s parents must be so relieved.  Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva
 

---------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request

 
Denny,
   I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in prayer and I hope that she soon goes home.
Shalom and blessings,
Tammy Croley

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
Hello all,

We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy. 
It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features. 
You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find 
photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own 
facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch 
with each other.

Shavua Tov,

Denny and Mary Joyce
Minneapolis

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight

_______________________________________________




 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." 

                                                          Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

 

---------------------------------

Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________



  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

       
---------------------------------
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
-------------- next part --------------
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From dennyj at mac.com  Mon Nov 19 20:38:52 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:38:52 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <651946.55141.qm@web57112.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <651946.55141.qm@web57112.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <05B6DCFA-DCEF-49F8-9851-55DA995B813C@mac.com>

Thank you too, Tammy for your prayer cover.
I had a nice phone conversation with Ross tonight while he was at a  
soccer game.
You all are very blessed to have him as your teacher at Roots of  
Faith. We are feeling more a part of your group all the time. We may  
have to come down one of these days.
Again, blessings to you and all the rest who have been holding Mady in  
prayer. You have blessed us.

Shalom,
Denny

On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:34 PM, Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote:

> Denny,
>    Thank you for the photos......it is so wonderful to be able to  
> put a face with her sweet name.  I repeat that I am so thankful that  
> she is doing OK.  Praise G-d that her injury wasn't more severe.  My  
> prayers will continue to be for Mady and all of your family.
> Shalom and blessings,
> Tammy
>
>
> Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
> Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady.
>
> In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on  
> the kids Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else  
> but the friends in the group can access the information. So I  
> quickly put together a web page with pictures of Mady before and  
> after her accident. No we have a family with bald heads as many are  
> shaving their heads in support of our Mady. I won't post those at  
> this time. ;-)
>
> Here is the link.
> http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html
>
> Shalom,
> Denny
>
>
> On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:
>
>> Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady?s recovery.  Baruch HaShem  
>> for His blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!
>> I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady?s parents must be so relieved.   
>> Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva
>>
>> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
>> ] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley
>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
>>
>> Denny,
>>    I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad  
>> to hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up  
>> in prayer and I hope that she soon goes home.
>> Shalom and blessings,
>> Tammy Croley
>>
>> Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy.
>> It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
>> All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features.
>> You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
>> Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find
>> photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
>> Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own
>> facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in  
>> touch
>> with each other.
>>
>> Shavua Tov,
>>
>> Denny and Mary Joyce
>> Minneapolis
>>
>> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I  
>> place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His  
>> will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not  
>> things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires  
>> otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."
>>                                                           Rabbi  
>> Nachman's Wisdom 2
>>
>> Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail.  
>> See how.
>> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I  
> place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His  
> will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things  
> go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires  
> otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."
>                                                           Rabbi  
> Nachman's Wisdom 2
>
> Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail.  
> See how. _______________________________________________

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From dennyj at mac.com  Mon Nov 19 20:36:25 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:36:25 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <012d01c82b1b$ec05e5e0$653c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <012d01c82b1b$ec05e5e0$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <F14472AB-F2F6-48E7-A7E5-D4C4749CC4BF@mac.com>

Thanks, Betty/Elisheva,

You may have noticed some other links at the top of the page. Those  
are some of our album pages of family activities. Feel free to look  
them over to see the rest of our family.
We live in the other end of town up in Fridley. We are in the home  
that I grew up in as a child. My folks have long passed on and we  
inherited the home where my kids had some of the same teachers that I  
had growing up. I am the block captain in the neighborhood and our  
roots go down real deep here. Send us some pictures of you and Roger.  
Like you said, it makes it more personal.

Blessings,
Denny

On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:20 PM, Betty Givin wrote:

> Oh Denny, it is one thing to read a description about the freak  
> accident, but quite another to actually see the pictures and to see  
> what a beautiful little girl Mady is!  Baruch HaShem that she is  
> going to be okay! It looks like she has a lot of great family  
> support.  As I said before, it is a true miracle that she is alive!   
> I think it is very special that so many in your family are shaving  
> their heads in support of Mady.  A number of years ago, my husband?s  
> niece, who was 14 yrs old at the time, had a brain tumor and of  
> course had to have her head shaved for the surgery.  His family sent  
> us the cutest picture of her and her dad, arms around each other? 
> both bald!  Sarah is in her mid-twenties now and is doing  
> wonderfully!  Thanks so much for sharing and for sending us the  
> pictures and for giving us the opportunity to pray.  I feel like we  
> know you and you are a part of our family.
>
> As an aside, I noticed you and your wife are from Minneapolis.  My  
> husband, Roger, and I spent a lot of time up there up until last  
> year, working for American Family Insurance in Eden Prairie.  I wish  
> we could have know you then.  Take care, please keep us posted and  
> anytime you want to share pictures, that would be a special  
> blessing!  Love, shalom and many blessings, Betty/Elisheva
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 8:01 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
>
> Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady.
>
> In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on  
> the kids Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else  
> but the friends in the group can access the information. So I  
> quickly put together a web page with pictures of Mady before and  
> after her accident. No we have a family with bald heads as many are  
> shaving their heads in support of our Mady. I won't post those at  
> this time. ;-)
>
> Here is the link.
> http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html
>
> Shalom,
> Denny
>
>
> On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:
>
>
> Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady?s recovery.  Baruch HaShem  
> for His blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!
> I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady?s parents must be so relieved.   
> Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
>
> Denny,
>    I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to  
> hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in  
> prayer and I hope that she soon goes home.
> Shalom and blessings,
> Tammy Croley
>
> Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy.
> It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
> All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features.
> You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
> Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find
> photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
> Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own
> facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch
> with each other.
>
> Shavua Tov,
>
> Denny and Mary Joyce
> Minneapolis
>
> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I  
> place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His  
> will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things  
> go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires  
> otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."
>                                                           Rabbi  
> Nachman's Wisdom 2
>
>
> Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail.  
> See how.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________

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From tsbcroley at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 20:57:21 2007
From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:57:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <05B6DCFA-DCEF-49F8-9851-55DA995B813C@mac.com>
Message-ID: <562587.27956.qm@web57103.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Denny,
   I am located in Alabama, so Ross is my long distance teacher, as well,via the internet.  I am very thankful that we can all feel that we are a part of "Roots of Faith" because of this wonderful technology.  I am like you and hope that one day, Bruce and I can drive over to Louisiana and actually be a part of the services.  For the time being though, I just feel so blessed that I can partake of the teachings and continue to meet new friends like you.
Shalom,
Tammy

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote: Thank you too, Tammy for your prayer cover.I had a nice phone conversation with Ross tonight while he was at a soccer game.
You all are very blessed to have him as your teacher at Roots of Faith. We are feeling more a part of your group all the time. We may have to come down one of these days.
Again, blessings to you and all the rest who have been holding Mady in prayer. You have blessed us.


Shalom,
Denny

On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:34 PM, Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote:

Denny,
   Thank you for the photos......it is so wonderful to be able to put a face with her sweet name.  I repeat that I am so thankful that she is doing OK.  Praise G-d that her injury wasn't more severe.  My prayers will continue to be for Mady and all of your family.  
Shalom and blessings,
Tammy


Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote: Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady.

In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on the kids Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else but the friends in the group can access the information. So I quickly put together a web page with pictures of Mady before and after her accident. No we have a family with bald heads as many are shaving their heads in support of our Mady. I won't post those at this time. ;-)


Here is the link.
http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html


Shalom,
Denny




On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:

Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady?s recovery.  Baruch HaShem for His blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!
I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady?s parents must be so relieved.  Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva
 

---------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request

 
Denny,
   I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in prayer and I hope that she soon goes home.
Shalom and blessings,
Tammy Croley

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
Hello all,

We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy. 
It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features. 
You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find 
photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own 
facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch 
with each other.

Shavua Tov,

Denny and Mary Joyce
Minneapolis

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight

_______________________________________________




 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." 

                                                          Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

 

---------------------------------

Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________



  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2
       


---------------------------------
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. _______________________________________________



_______________________________________________



  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

       
---------------------------------
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.  Make Yahoo! your homepage.
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From dennyj at mac.com  Mon Nov 19 21:02:41 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:02:41 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <562587.27956.qm@web57103.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <562587.27956.qm@web57103.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4986AE3C-A0AF-45B4-9762-5C10ABE7D8D2@mac.com>

Wow! That's cool, Tammy!

  So, do you not have a place to fellowship either? We just meet with  
a small group Friday nights for a sabbath meal and then again on  
Saturday to listen to Roots of Faith and study together. Often we hang  
out till Sundown and do Havdallah together. What do you do?

Denny

On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:57 PM, Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote:

> Denny,
>    I am located in Alabama, so Ross is my long distance teacher, as  
> well,via the internet.  I am very thankful that we can all feel that  
> we are a part of "Roots of Faith" because of this wonderful  
> technology.  I am like you and hope that one day, Bruce and I can  
> drive over to Louisiana and actually be a part of the services.  For  
> the time being though, I just feel so blessed that I can partake of  
> the teachings and continue to meet new friends like you.
> Shalom,
> Tammy
>
> Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
> Thank you too, Tammy for your prayer cover.
> I had a nice phone conversation with Ross tonight while he was at a  
> soccer game.
> You all are very blessed to have him as your teacher at Roots of  
> Faith. We are feeling more a part of your group all the time. We may  
> have to come down one of these days.
> Again, blessings to you and all the rest who have been holding Mady  
> in prayer. You have blessed us.
>
> Shalom,
> Denny
>
> On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:34 PM, Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote:
>
>> Denny,
>>    Thank you for the photos......it is so wonderful to be able to  
>> put a face with her sweet name.  I repeat that I am so thankful  
>> that she is doing OK.  Praise G-d that her injury wasn't more  
>> severe.  My prayers will continue to be for Mady and all of your  
>> family.
>> Shalom and blessings,
>> Tammy
>>
>>
>> Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
>> Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady.
>>
>> In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on  
>> the kids Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else  
>> but the friends in the group can access the information. So I  
>> quickly put together a web page with pictures of Mady before and  
>> after her accident. No we have a family with bald heads as many are  
>> shaving their heads in support of our Mady. I won't post those at  
>> this time. ;-)
>>
>> Here is the link.
>> http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html
>>
>> Shalom,
>> Denny
>>
>>
>> On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:
>>
>>> Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady?s recovery.  Baruch  
>>> HaShem for His blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!
>>> I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady?s parents must be so relieved.   
>>> Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva
>>>
>>> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
>>> ] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley
>>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
>>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
>>>
>>> Denny,
>>>    I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad  
>>> to hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up  
>>> in prayer and I hope that she soon goes home.
>>> Shalom and blessings,
>>> Tammy Croley
>>>
>>> Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy.
>>> It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
>>> All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool  
>>> features.
>>> You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
>>> Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find
>>> photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
>>> Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own
>>> facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in  
>>> touch
>>> with each other.
>>>
>>> Shavua Tov,
>>>
>>> Denny and Mary Joyce
>>> Minneapolis
>>>
>>> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I  
>>> place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His  
>>> will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not  
>>> things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires  
>>> otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."
>>>                                                           Rabbi  
>>> Nachman's Wisdom 2
>>>
>>> Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail.  
>>> See how.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I  
>> place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His  
>> will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not  
>> things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires  
>> otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."
>>                                                           Rabbi  
>> Nachman's Wisdom 2
>>
>> Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail.  
>> See how. _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I  
> place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His  
> will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things  
> go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires  
> otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."
>                                                           Rabbi  
> Nachman's Wisdom 2
>
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your  
> homepage. _______________________________________________

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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Mon Nov 19 21:16:00 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:16:00 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5607@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Hey Everybody,

It's been a quiet day today, I think everyone is resting up for the holiday.  I'm thankful that Mady is going to be okay Denny.  I haven't been able to look at the photos yet but I will.  Yes we are blessed to have Ross for a teacher, he helps us learn for ourselves and I have so much to learn to catch up.  But I am convinced that it is the journey that counts.  It is good to has so many to journey with.


"Be excellent to each other"
               Bill & Ted

John C.
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Mon Nov 19 20:57:21 2007
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request

Denny,
   I am located in Alabama, so Ross is my long distance teacher, as well,via the internet.  I am very thankful that we can all feel that we are a part of "Roots of Faith" because of this wonderful technology.  I am like you and hope that one day, Bruce and I can drive over to Louisiana and actually be a part of the services.  For the time being though, I just feel so blessed that I can partake of the teachings and continue to meet new friends like you.
Shalom,
Tammy

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:

	Thank you too, Tammy for your prayer cover.
	I had a nice phone conversation with Ross tonight while he was at a soccer game.
	You all are very blessed to have him as your teacher at Roots of Faith. We are feeling more a part of your group all the time. We may have to come down one of these days.
	Again, blessings to you and all the rest who have been holding Mady in prayer. You have blessed us.

	Shalom,
	Denny

	On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:34 PM, Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote:


		Denny,
		   Thank you for the photos......it is so wonderful to be able to put a face with her sweet name.  I repeat that I am so thankful that she is doing OK.  Praise G-d that her injury wasn't more severe.  My prayers will continue to be for Mady and all of your family.  
		Shalom and blessings,
		Tammy
		
		
		Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:

			Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady.

			In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on the kids Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else but the friends in the group can access the information. So I quickly put together a web page with pictures of Mady before and after her accident. No we have a family with bald heads as many are shaving their heads in support of our Mady. I won't post those at this time. ;-)

			Here is the link.
			http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html

			Shalom,
			Denny


			On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:


								Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady?s recovery.  Baruch HaShem for His blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!
				I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady?s parents must be so relieved.  Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva
				 
				________________________________

								From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley
				Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
				To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
				Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
				 
				Denny,
				   I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in prayer and I hope that she soon goes home.
				Shalom and blessings,
				Tammy Croley
				
				Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
				Hello all,
				
				We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy. 
				It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
				All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features. 
				You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
				Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find 
				photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
				Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own 
				facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch 
				with each other.
				
				Shavua Tov,
				
				Denny and Mary Joyce
				Minneapolis
				
				http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight
				
				_______________________________________________
				
				
				
				
				 
				 
				 
				 
				 
				 
				 
				 
				 
				?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." 
				                                                          Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2
				 
				________________________________

								Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51732/*http:/overview.mail.yahoo.com/> 
				_______________________________________________
				
				

			_______________________________________________
			




		
		 
		 
		 
		 
		 
		 
		 
		 
		 
		?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
				                                                          Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

________________________________

		Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51732/*http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/>  _______________________________________________
		


	_______________________________________________
	





 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                          Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

________________________________

Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51443/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs>  
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From tsbcroley at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 21:25:20 2007
From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:25:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <4986AE3C-A0AF-45B4-9762-5C10ABE7D8D2@mac.com>
Message-ID: <533209.50573.qm@web57115.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Denny,
   We no longer attend the messianic group that we were a part of for about 3 years.  We wanted a different path..............not the "church" path that the majority seemed to want.  We left that congregation about 2 months ago and so did another couple.  We have only met with them a couple of times,  because we live over an hour away from each other.  Praise G-d that I actually found out about Ross and his services about that same time.  We usually spend Friday evenings bringing in the Sabbath with our son and daughter (ages 16 and 10).  We light the candles, have a special meal and just spend time together.  Saturdays are now spent listening to the "Roots of Faith" services and then some of the teachings on the "Universal Torah Network".
Shalom,
Tammy

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote: Wow! That's cool, Tammy!

 So, do you not have a place to fellowship either? We just meet with a small group Friday nights for a sabbath meal and then again on Saturday to listen to Roots of Faith and study together. Often we hang out till Sundown and do Havdallah together. What do you do?

Denny

On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:57 PM, Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote:

Denny,
   I am located in Alabama, so Ross is my long distance teacher, as well,via the internet.  I am very thankful that we can all feel that we are a part of "Roots of Faith" because of this wonderful technology.  I am like you and hope that one day, Bruce and I can drive over to Louisiana and actually be a part of the services.  For the time being though, I just feel so blessed that I can partake of the teachings and continue to meet new friends like you.
Shalom,
Tammy

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote: Thank you too, Tammy for your prayer cover.I had a nice phone conversation with Ross tonight while he was at a soccer game.
You all are very blessed to have him as your teacher at Roots of Faith. We are feeling more a part of your group all the time. We may have to come down one of these days.
Again, blessings to you and all the rest who have been holding Mady in prayer. You have blessed us.


Shalom,
Denny

On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:34 PM, Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote:

Denny,
   Thank you for the photos......it is so wonderful to be able to put a face with her sweet name.  I repeat that I am so thankful that she is doing OK.  Praise G-d that her injury wasn't more severe.  My prayers will continue to be for Mady and all of your family.  
Shalom and blessings,
Tammy


Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote: Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady.

In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on the kids Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else but the friends in the group can access the information. So I quickly put together a web page with pictures of Mady before and after her accident. No we have a family with bald heads as many are shaving their heads in support of our Mady. I won't post those at this time. ;-)


Here is the link.
http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html


Shalom,
Denny




On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:

Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady?s recovery.  Baruch HaShem for His blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!
I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady?s parents must be so relieved.  Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva
 

---------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request

 
Denny,
   I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in prayer and I hope that she soon goes home.
Shalom and blessings,
Tammy Croley

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
Hello all,

We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy. 
It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features. 
You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find 
photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own 
facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch 
with each other.

Shavua Tov,

Denny and Mary Joyce
Minneapolis

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight

_______________________________________________




 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." 

                                                          Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

 

---------------------------------

Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________



  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2
       


---------------------------------
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. _______________________________________________



_______________________________________________



  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2
       


---------------------------------
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.  Make Yahoo! your homepage. _______________________________________________




_______________________________________________



  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 19 23:04:30 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:04:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <54E50F3B-558A-4E00-9CD4-9D282168F78F@mac.com>
References: <011601c82b0d$8473f420$653c66c9@bettygivin>
	<54E50F3B-558A-4E00-9CD4-9D282168F78F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W98444B1C98C5C4434CFF1BA7F0@phx.gbl>


Just got in tonight from work and finally saw Mady's photos.  She is so adorable.  I loved the one of her surrounded by all her cousins.  How blessed you are to have so many beautiful children.  Baruch Hashem that Mady is doing so well!  She looks like such a strong, indomitable little person.  Thank you so much for sharing the photos with us.  Now, as I pray, I can see that sweet little face!
 
Love,
 
Pat
 
  


From: dennyj at mac.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer requestDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:00:58 -0600Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady. 

In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on the kids Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else but the friends in the group can access the information. So I quickly put together a web page with pictures of Mady before and after her accident. No we have a family with bald heads as many are shaving their heads in support of our Mady. I won't post those at this time. ;-)

Here is the link.
http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html

Shalom,
Denny




On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:



Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady?s recovery.  Baruch HaShem for His blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!
I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady?s parents must be so relieved.  Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva
 




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce CroleySent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
 
Denny,   I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in prayer and I hope that she soon goes home.Shalom and blessings,Tammy CroleyDenny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
Hello all,We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy. It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features. You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch with each other.Shavua Tov,Denny and Mary JoyceMinneapolishttp://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight_______________________________________________


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." 

                                                          Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2
 



Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how._______________________________________________
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From rndavar at aol.com  Tue Nov 20 00:16:37 2007
From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 01:16:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Exciting Week
Message-ID: <8C9F9540A85A950-A24-6801@Webmail-mg16.sysops.aol.com>


Well, I had a nice conversation with Denny tonight.? It is quite amazing, but I feel like we are all becoming a small and yet scattered family. I felt a connection with his family as he told the amazing story.

Your journeys towards this path are all very special to me.? We are all finding our way home and the path is not going to be easy.? There will be times when any one of us may want to "return to Egypt", but I must insist that we all resist the pull.

While I love to teach the Bible, my first love is to be a student.? We are all disciples.? I believe that I will learn from each of you as we study together.

I want to encourage all of you to keep up the dialogue.? I am reading all of the posts but have had little time to comment.? After the service on Saturday we had a birthday party for my grandson Asher which lasted into the night.? Sunday morning I woke up early and drove to Texas with two of my sons (Ty and Zachariah).? We spent the day with Joseph Good.? We filmed 4 weeks worth of his series "The Gates" for Universal Torah Network.? This was the first time I had filmed and so hopefully it turns out okay.? I felt good about it and Joe really made the whole thing seem relaxed.



The first of the four shows will be up on the web at some point Wednesday assuming it came out.

http://universaltorah.com/programming/category/hatikva/

Speaking of technical things, it appears that this past Sabbath's Morning Service and Dialogue did not get recorded and so we will not be posting any audio files this week.

I am an amateur...what can I say:(

This coming Sabbath I will see if we can record a back up copy using my small digital recorder.? Dave / John, can we do this?? 

Shalom to all of you.? I need to get some sleep.? So much for that early to bed thing John!

Ross

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
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From dennyj at mac.com  Tue Nov 20 06:26:07 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 06:26:07 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <BAY115-W98444B1C98C5C4434CFF1BA7F0@phx.gbl>
References: <011601c82b0d$8473f420$653c66c9@bettygivin>
	<54E50F3B-558A-4E00-9CD4-9D282168F78F@mac.com>
	<BAY115-W98444B1C98C5C4434CFF1BA7F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <D6795126-427D-40D8-8EF6-C668D6E0CF91@mac.com>

Thank you, Pat.
.
That wasn't only part of the cousins. There were 7 others that weren't  
there yet.
Yes, we are so blessed to have all these beautiful children. We all  
had quite an impact on the staff at the hospital.
They don't often get to see such together families.

Family is what we are about as believers. In fact, My family had a  
music ministry years ago with original music all about family life.
Here is a link for you to go download the music in mp3 format for free.

http://downloads.dennyj.com

Enjoy it! The music is when our now grown children were small. They  
are the voices you will hear in a few songs.
Thanks again for your prayers.

Shalom Aleichem,

Denny and Mary Joyce

On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:04 PM, patricia robbins wrote:

> Just got in tonight from work and finally saw Mady's photos.  She is  
> so adorable.  I loved the one of her surrounded by all her cousins.   
> How blessed you are to have so many beautiful children.  Baruch  
> Hashem that Mady is doing so well!  She looks like such a strong,  
> indomitable little person.  Thank you so much for sharing the photos  
> with us.  Now, as I pray, I can see that sweet little face!
>
> Love,
>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
> From: dennyj at mac.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:00:58 -0600
>
> Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady.
>
> In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on  
> the kids Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else  
> but the friends in the group can access the information. So I  
> quickly put together a web page with pictures of Mady before and  
> after her accident. No we have a family with bald heads as many are  
> shaving their heads in support of our Mady. I won't post those at  
> this time. ;-)
>
> Here is the link.
> http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html
>
> Shalom,
> Denny
>
>
> On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:
>
> Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady?s recovery.  Baruch HaShem  
> for His blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!
> I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady?s parents must be so relieved.   
> Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
>
> Denny,
>    I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to  
> hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in  
> prayer and I hope that she soon goes home.
> Shalom and blessings,
> Tammy Croley
>
> Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy.
> It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
> All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features.
> You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
> Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find
> photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
> Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own
> facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch
> with each other.
>
> Shavua Tov,
>
> Denny and Mary Joyce
> Minneapolis
>
> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I  
> place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His  
> will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things  
> go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires  
> otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."
>                                                           Rabbi  
> Nachman's Wisdom 2
>
> Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail.  
> See how.
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________

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From dennyj at mac.com  Tue Nov 20 06:44:00 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 06:44:00 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Exciting Week
In-Reply-To: <8C9F9540A85A950-A24-6801@Webmail-mg16.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C9F9540A85A950-A24-6801@Webmail-mg16.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <03001B64-F12D-4F40-AC56-874AE6A4926A@mac.com>

Good morning Ross and friends,

It was a real blessing for me to finally be able to have a personal  
conversation with you Ross.
Your comment about this path being hard and "returning to Egypt"  
reminded me of one of my favorite songs sent to us by our youngest  
son. You all may already be aware of it, but if not, you must at least  
read the lyrics. It is "Painting Pictures of Egypt" by Sara Groves.   
Here are the lyrics. I think you will all immediately identify with  
her. I wonder if she knows?

I don?t want to leave here
I don?t want to stay
It feels like pinching to me either way
The places I long for the most
Are the places where I?ve been
They are calling after me like a long lost friend

It?s not about losing faith
It?s not about trust
It?s all about comfortable
When you move so much
The place I was wasn?t perfect
But I had found a way to live
It wasn?t milk or honey
But then neither is this

CHORUS:
I?ve been painting pictures of Egypt
Leaving out what it lacked
The future seems so hard
And I want to go back
But the places that used to fit me
Cannot hold the things I"ve learned
And those roads closed off to me
While my back was turned

The past is so tangible
I know it by heart
Familiar things are never easy to discard
I was dying for some freedom
But now I hesitate to go
Caught between the promise
And the things I know

BRIDGE:
If it comes too quick
I may not recognize it
Is that the reason behind all this time and sand?
If it comes too quick
I may not appreciate it
Is that the reason behind all this time and sand?



You can find this song on iTunes. It is a very moving song.

It is so good to have friends with us on this journey who know what  
it's like.

Shalom Aleichem

Denny



On Nov 20, 2007, at 12:16 AM, rndavar at aol.com wrote:

> Well, I had a nice conversation with Denny tonight.  It is quite  
> amazing, but I feel like we are all becoming a small and yet  
> scattered family. I felt a connection with his family as he told the  
> amazing story.
>
> Your journeys towards this path are all very special to me.  We are  
> all finding our way home and the path is not going to be easy.   
> There will be times when any one of us may want to "return to  
> Egypt", but I must insist that we all resist the pull.
>
> While I love to teach the Bible, my first love is to be a student.   
> We are all disciples.  I believe that I will learn from each of you  
> as we study together.
>
> I want to encourage all of you to keep up the dialogue.  I am  
> reading all of the posts but have had little time to comment.  After  
> the service on Saturday we had a birthday party for my grandson  
> Asher which lasted into the night.  Sunday morning I woke up early  
> and drove to Texas with two of my sons (Ty and Zachariah).  We spent  
> the day with Joseph Good.  We filmed 4 weeks worth of his series  
> "The Gates" for Universal Torah Network.  This was the first time I  
> had filmed and so hopefully it turns out okay.  I felt good about it  
> and Joe really made the whole thing seem relaxed.
>
> The first of the four shows will be up on the web at some point  
> Wednesday assuming it came out.
>
> http://universaltorah.com/programming/category/hatikva/
>
> Speaking of technical things, it appears that this past Sabbath's  
> Morning Service and Dialogue did not get recorded and so we will not  
> be posting any audio files this week.
>
> I am an amateur...what can I say:(
>
> This coming Sabbath I will see if we can record a back up copy using  
> my small digital recorder.  Dave / John, can we do this?
>
> Shalom to all of you.  I need to get some sleep.  So much for that  
> early to bed thing John!
>
> Ross
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
> _______________________________________________

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From dennyj at mac.com  Tue Nov 20 07:33:08 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:33:08 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Music
In-Reply-To: <111720070751.18758.473E9D8D000129120000494622193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <111720070751.18758.473E9D8D000129120000494622193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <4CD63796-AC5B-41B4-AC2E-8E2C5C44212E@mac.com>

Good morning, John,

Hey, I saw your picture on the website this morning and was drawn to  
your guitar. I had one just like that many years ago.
Actually I had several Ovations. One of them was a Classical Stereo  
guitar. I miss that one. At the moment all I have is my original  
Yamaha that my dad gave me when I was 16.
It has been in the family ever since and my son gave it back to me to  
keep. It has a lot of memories tied to it.  I'm sure yours does too.

Have a great day, my friend!

Denny



From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Tue Nov 20 07:41:33 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:41:33 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Music
In-Reply-To: <4CD63796-AC5B-41B4-AC2E-8E2C5C44212E@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F457@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Hey, Denny,

Glenn butting in here to mention the one I am holding in the picture on
site - a 1985 vintage Martin D28... I am so proud of her... she has
served me well thus far! I won't part with her (unless G-d told me to, a
thought I care not to dwell on)! 

Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:33 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Music


Good morning, John,

Hey, I saw your picture on the website this morning and was drawn to  
your guitar. I had one just like that many years ago.
Actually I had several Ovations. One of them was a Classical Stereo  
guitar. I miss that one. At the moment all I have is my original  
Yamaha that my dad gave me when I was 16.
It has been in the family ever since and my son gave it back to me to  
keep. It has a lot of memories tied to it.  I'm sure yours does too.

Have a great day, my friend!

Denny

_______________________________________________


From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Tue Nov 20 08:01:30 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:01:30 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Music
In-Reply-To: <4CD63796-AC5B-41B4-AC2E-8E2C5C44212E@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5609@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Yeah,

I've been playing 12 string since I was in the Navy (30 yrs ago....heavy sigh).  My first 12 string was a Yamaha that my wife bought for me.  I loved that guitar but it was destroyed in a house fire in '86.  I bought an Alvarez to replace it but not too long after that I ran into a guy whose wife had just bought him the Ovation and unfortunately he had just developed carpal tunnel so he couldn't play it.  I had always wanted an Ovation and he was selling it for $500 (hard case and all) so I snapped it up.  That was about 15 years ago and we have been through much together.  I have great difficulty playing 6 string now. And I still have much to learn about playing in general but I've always said that I'm not a musician, just a guitar player.

Shalom.

John C.
"Be Excellent to Each Other!"
????????????????????? Bill & Ted


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:33 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Music

Good morning, John,

Hey, I saw your picture on the website this morning and was drawn to  
your guitar. I had one just like that many years ago.
Actually I had several Ovations. One of them was a Classical Stereo  
guitar. I miss that one. At the moment all I have is my original  
Yamaha that my dad gave me when I was 16.
It has been in the family ever since and my son gave it back to me to  
keep. It has a lot of memories tied to it.  I'm sure yours does too.

Have a great day, my friend!

Denny

_______________________________________________


From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Tue Nov 20 08:09:30 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:09:30 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request
In-Reply-To: <54E50F3B-558A-4E00-9CD4-9D282168F78F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A560A@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

She is a beautiful little girl.  Looks like she is full of life with a
double dose of mischief mixed in.  G-d willing she will come out of it
all with only some hair-raising (no pun intended) stories to tell.  I
suspect momma and daddy's next problem will be keeping her still long
enough to finish healing.

 

May HaShem smile upon her.  ;-{)}

 

John C.

"Be Excellent to Each Other!"

                      Bill & Ted

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 8:01 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request

 

Thank you all for your prayers and concern for Mady.

 

In my last update I mentioned about seeing the pictures of Mady on the
kids Facebook site. I guess I didn't realize that no one else but the
friends in the group can access the information. So I quickly put
together a web page with pictures of Mady before and after her accident.
No we have a family with bald heads as many are shaving their heads in
support of our Mady. I won't post those at this time. ;-)

 

Here is the link.

http://web.mac.com/dennyj/dennyj/Mady.html

 

Shalom,

Denny

 

 

On Nov 19, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Betty Givin wrote:





Denny, so happy to hear the news of Mady's recovery.  Baruch HaShem for
His blessings!  What a little miracle child she is!

I know you and Mary Joyce and Mady's parents must be so relieved.  Love
& Blessings, Betty/Elisheva

 

________________________________

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce
Croley
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:37 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Prayer request

 

Denny,
   I have been praying for Mady throughout the day.  I am so glad to
hear that she is doing better.  I will continue to lift her up in prayer
and I hope that she soon goes home.
Shalom and blessings,
Tammy Croley

Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote:

Hello all,

We are home. Mady is spending one more night in ICU with her daddy. 
It has been a good day with her. She will be fine.
All of our family is on facebook now and utilizing the cool features. 
You all might think about this tool for our fellowship too.
Anyway, here is a link to our son's facebook page where you can find 
photos, movies and info about Mady and our family.
Thanks again for all your prayers and do consider starting your own 
facebook pages and link to each other. What a fun way to stay in touch 
with each other.

Shavua Tov,

Denny and Mary Joyce
Minneapolis

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689109005&highlight

_______________________________________________







 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place
my every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This
is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am
completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already
asked that I do only His will." 

                                                          Rabbi
Nachman's Wisdom 2

 

________________________________

Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See
how. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51732/*http:/overview.mail.yahoo.com/> 

_______________________________________________



 

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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Tue Nov 20 08:16:43 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:16:43 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Exciting Week
In-Reply-To: <8C9F9540A85A950-A24-6801@Webmail-mg16.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A560C@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

I'm sure we can find a way to back up the recording (in fact I'm certain
we have done that in the past) (Mk 10:27).

 

I didn't really think you would go to bed early but what are friends for
if not to fuss at you when you need it?

 

John C.

"Be Excellent to Each Other!"

                      Bill & Ted

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:17 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Exciting Week

 

Well, I had a nice conversation with Denny tonight.  It is quite
amazing, but I feel like we are all becoming a small and yet scattered
family. I felt a connection with his family as he told the amazing
story.

Your journeys towards this path are all very special to me.  We are all
finding our way home and the path is not going to be easy.  There will
be times when any one of us may want to "return to Egypt", but I must
insist that we all resist the pull.

While I love to teach the Bible, my first love is to be a student.  We
are all disciples.  I believe that I will learn from each of you as we
study together.

I want to encourage all of you to keep up the dialogue.  I am reading
all of the posts but have had little time to comment.  After the service
on Saturday we had a birthday party for my grandson Asher which lasted
into the night.  Sunday morning I woke up early and drove to Texas with
two of my sons (Ty and Zachariah).  We spent the day with Joseph Good.
We filmed 4 weeks worth of his series "The Gates" for Universal Torah
Network.  This was the first time I had filmed and so hopefully it turns
out okay.  I felt good about it and Joe really made the whole thing seem
relaxed.

 

The first of the four shows will be up on the web at some point
Wednesday assuming it came out.

http://universaltorah.com/programming/category/hatikva/

Speaking of technical things, it appears that this past Sabbath's
Morning Service and Dialogue did not get recorded and so we will not be
posting any audio files this week.

I am an amateur...what can I say:(

This coming Sabbath I will see if we can record a back up copy using my
small digital recorder.  Dave / John, can we do this?  

Shalom to all of you.  I need to get some sleep.  So much for that early
to bed thing John!

Ross

________________________________

Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?nc
id=AOLAOF00020000000970> !

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From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com  Tue Nov 20 08:17:06 2007
From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:17:06 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Music
Message-ID: <CAFFEC80641E3E4183BF90B0E461D6AC04BB367A@msgcpla090.srv.gapac.com>

I added a couple of pictures to the main page (www.rootsoffaith.org). I
think I might add a page that has pictures and names so that people get
to know one another in the synagogue without walls.  What do you think?
People that do not live here could send me a picture and I could load it
on the web site.  Some may not want their picture posted.  The beauty of
this is that you can send me a picture of anyone and tell me its you:)
Guys, if I get a bunch of pictures of Richard Gere (sp?) I may suspect
something.

Ross K. Nichols
Operations Excellence
Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830
Cellular - 225.588.1575


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:33 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Music

Good morning, John,

Hey, I saw your picture on the website this morning and was drawn to  
your guitar. I had one just like that many years ago.
Actually I had several Ovations. One of them was a Classical Stereo  
guitar. I miss that one. At the moment all I have is my original  
Yamaha that my dad gave me when I was 16.
It has been in the family ever since and my son gave it back to me to  
keep. It has a lot of memories tied to it.  I'm sure yours does too.

Have a great day, my friend!

Denny

_______________________________________________



From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Tue Nov 20 08:18:58 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:18:58 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Music
In-Reply-To: <CAFFEC80641E3E4183BF90B0E461D6AC04BB367A@msgcpla090.srv.gapac.
	com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F458@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

I think it is great idea.

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Nichols, Ross K.
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:17 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Music


I added a couple of pictures to the main page (www.rootsoffaith.org). I
think I might add a page that has pictures and names so that people get
to know one another in the synagogue without walls.  What do you think?
People that do not live here could send me a picture and I could load it
on the web site.  Some may not want their picture posted.  The beauty of
this is that you can send me a picture of anyone and tell me its you:)
Guys, if I get a bunch of pictures of Richard Gere (sp?) I may suspect
something.

Ross K. Nichols
Operations Excellence
Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830
Cellular - 225.588.1575


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:33 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Music

Good morning, John,

Hey, I saw your picture on the website this morning and was drawn to  
your guitar. I had one just like that many years ago.
Actually I had several Ovations. One of them was a Classical Stereo  
guitar. I miss that one. At the moment all I have is my original  
Yamaha that my dad gave me when I was 16.
It has been in the family ever since and my son gave it back to me to  
keep. It has a lot of memories tied to it.  I'm sure yours does too.

Have a great day, my friend!

Denny

_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________


From dennyjonTreo at aol.com  Sun Nov 18 12:31:00 2007
From: dennyjonTreo at aol.com (dennyjonTreo at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:31:00 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Thanks for your prayers
Message-ID: <d09.21ffc7bf.3471def7@aim.com>

Dear Prayer Warriors,

Thank you foryour prayer support. We are at the hospital now playing games with and reading to Mady while hermom and dad went home to clean up. Our son, Jason, was still full of  blood from carrying Mady after the accident. The doctors are very pleased with how she is doing and will be sending her home tomorrow.
P
Baruch HASHEM.
The rest of the family are on the way down tovisit. I will pass along all your well wishes from our new caring family in the Roots of Faith fellowhip. May He richly bless you all as our netork deepens as we share the struggles and challenges of life together.

Love,
Denny & Mary Joyce

P.S. Mady says "Hi, I feel dizzy".



From tsbcroley at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 08:28:46 2007
From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 06:28:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Exciting Week
In-Reply-To: <8C9F9540A85A950-A24-6801@Webmail-mg16.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <391352.41806.qm@web57111.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Good Morning Ross,
     I am really looking forward to seeing you with Joseph Good this week on UTN.  I was listening to his "live" program last night and he mentioned that y'all had been together in the last few days.  In fact, he referred to some passage that y'all had discussed.  I have been a student of Joe for sometime now and his wife, Debbie, gets the credit for guiding me toward your ministry.  She didn't really realize how far where I am in Alabama is from where you are in LA.  She knew I longed for a congregation and thought that I could just drive over(LOL).   Who knows, one of these weekends, Bruce and I might do just that!!
Shalom,
Tammy

rndavar at aol.com wrote:  Well, I had a nice conversation with Denny tonight.  It is quite amazing, but I feel like we are all becoming a small and yet scattered family. I felt a connection with his family as he told the amazing story.
 
 Your journeys towards this path are all very special to me.  We are all finding our way home and the path is not going to be easy.  There will be times when any one of us may want to "return to Egypt", but I must insist that we all resist the pull.
 
 While I love to teach the Bible, my first love is to be a student.  We are all disciples.  I believe that I will learn from each of you as we study together.
 
 I want to encourage all of you to keep up the dialogue.  I am reading all of the posts but have had little time to comment.  After the service on Saturday we had a birthday party for my grandson Asher which lasted into the night.  Sunday morning I woke up early and drove to Texas with two of my sons (Ty and Zachariah).  We spent the day with Joseph Good.  We filmed 4 weeks worth of his series "The Gates" for Universal Torah Network.  This was the first time I had filmed and so hopefully it turns out okay.  I felt good about it and Joe really made the whole thing seem relaxed.
    
   The first of the four shows will be up on the web at some point Wednesday assuming it came out.
 
 http://universaltorah.com/programming/category/hatikva/
 
 Speaking of technical things, it appears that this past Sabbath's Morning Service and Dialogue did not get recorded and so we will not be posting any audio files this week.
 
 I am an amateur...what can I say:(
 
 This coming Sabbath I will see if we can record a back up copy using my small digital recorder.  Dave / John, can we do this?  
 
 Shalom to all of you.  I need to get some sleep.  So much for that early to bed thing John!
 
 Ross
  
---------------------------------
 Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
 
 _______________________________________________



  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.
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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Tue Nov 20 08:57:39 2007
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:57:39 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Exciting Week
References: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A560C@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
Message-ID: <00b401c82b85$b2401cd0$6400a8c0@davesbook>

backing up the service is not a problem,  just bring that voice recorder and your self Ross.....Hey the leaves are falling on my lap top.......get some sleep.    
dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: CARLSON, JOHN S 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:16 AM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Exciting Week


  I'm sure we can find a way to back up the recording (in fact I'm certain we have done that in the past) (Mk 10:27).



  I didn't really think you would go to bed early but what are friends for if not to fuss at you when you need it?



  John C.

  "Be Excellent to Each Other!"

                        Bill & Ted



  -----Original Message-----
  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com
  Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:17 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: [Dialogue] Exciting Week



  Well, I had a nice conversation with Denny tonight.  It is quite amazing, but I feel like we are all becoming a small and yet scattered family. I felt a connection with his family as he told the amazing story.

  Your journeys towards this path are all very special to me.  We are all finding our way home and the path is not going to be easy.  There will be times when any one of us may want to "return to Egypt", but I must insist that we all resist the pull.

  While I love to teach the Bible, my first love is to be a student.  We are all disciples.  I believe that I will learn from each of you as we study together.

  I want to encourage all of you to keep up the dialogue.  I am reading all of the posts but have had little time to comment.  After the service on Saturday we had a birthday party for my grandson Asher which lasted into the night.  Sunday morning I woke up early and drove to Texas with two of my sons (Ty and Zachariah).  We spent the day with Joseph Good.  We filmed 4 weeks worth of his series "The Gates" for Universal Torah Network.  This was the first time I had filmed and so hopefully it turns out okay.  I felt good about it and Joe really made the whole thing seem relaxed.



  The first of the four shows will be up on the web at some point Wednesday assuming it came out.

  http://universaltorah.com/programming/category/hatikva/

  Speaking of technical things, it appears that this past Sabbath's Morning Service and Dialogue did not get recorded and so we will not be posting any audio files this week.

  I am an amateur...what can I say:(

  This coming Sabbath I will see if we can record a back up copy using my small digital recorder.  Dave / John, can we do this?  

  Shalom to all of you.  I need to get some sleep.  So much for that early to bed thing John!

  Ross


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov 20 08:59:41 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:59:41 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Exciting Week
Message-ID: <112020071459.8743.4742F65C0007CF080000222722230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Could be worse, could be snowflakes.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from "Dave Cole" <dhcole1 at cox.net>: -------------- 


backing up the service is not a problem,  just bring that voice recorder and your self Ross.....Hey the leaves are falling on my lap top.......get some sleep.    
dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: CARLSON, JOHN S 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:16 AM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Exciting Week


I?m sure we can find a way to back up the recording (in fact I?m certain we have done that in the past) (Mk 10:27).

I didn?t really think you would go to bed early but what are friends for if not to fuss at you when you need it?

John C.
"Be Excellent to Each Other!"
                      Bill & Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:17 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Exciting Week

Well, I had a nice conversation with Denny tonight.  It is quite amazing, but I feel like we are all becoming a small and yet scattered family. I felt a connection with his family as he told the amazing story.

Your journeys towards this path are all very special to me.  We are all finding our way home and the path is not going to be easy.  There will be times when any one of us may want to "return to Egypt", but I must insist that we all resist the pull.

While I love to teach the Bible, my first love is to be a student.  We are all disciples.  I believe that I will learn from each of you as we study together.

I want to encourage all of you to keep up the dialogue.  I am reading all of the posts but have had little time to comment.  After the service on Saturday we had a birthday party for my grandson Asher which lasted into the night.  Sunday morning I woke up early and drove to Texas with two of my sons (Ty and Zachariah).  We spent the day with Joseph Good.  We filmed 4 weeks worth of his series "The Gates" for Universal Torah Network.  This was the first time I had filmed and so hopefully it turns out okay.  I felt good about it and Joe really made the whole thing seem relaxed.

The first of the four shows will be up on the web at some point Wednesday assuming it came out.

http://universaltorah.com/programming/category/hatikva/

Speaking of technical things, it appears that this past Sabbath's Morning Service and Dialogue did not get recorded and so we will not be posting any audio files this week.

I am an amateur...what can I say:(

This coming Sabbath I will see if we can record a back up copy using my small digital recorder.  Dave / John, can we do this?  

Shalom to all of you.  I need to get some sleep.  So much for that early to bed thing John!

Ross



Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!



_______________________________________________
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov 20 09:00:32 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:00:32 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Music
Message-ID: <112020071500.12035.4742F68F000D32D900002F0322230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Cool!  We have a friends gallery.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from "Nichols, Ross K." <ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com>: -------------- 


> I added a couple of pictures to the main page (www.rootsoffaith.org). I 
> think I might add a page that has pictures and names so that people get 
> to know one another in the synagogue without walls. What do you think? 
> People that do not live here could send me a picture and I could load it 
> on the web site. Some may not want their picture posted. The beauty of 
> this is that you can send me a picture of anyone and tell me its you:) 
> Guys, if I get a bunch of pictures of Richard Gere (sp?) I may suspect 
> something. 
> 
> Ross K. Nichols 
> Operations Excellence 
> Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830 
> Cellular - 225.588.1575 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:33 AM 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Music 
> 
> Good morning, John, 
> 
> Hey, I saw your picture on the website this morning and was drawn to 
> your guitar. I had one just like that many years ago. 
> Actually I had several Ovations. One of them was a Classical Stereo 
> guitar. I miss that one. At the moment all I have is my original 
> Yamaha that my dad gave me when I was 16. 
> It has been in the family ever since and my son gave it back to me to 
> keep. It has a lot of memories tied to it. I'm sure yours does too. 
> 
> Have a great day, my friend! 
> 
> Denny 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Tue Nov 20 09:10:58 2007
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:10:58 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] instant messeging
Message-ID: <002401c82b87$8edac360$6400a8c0@davesbook>

For all the internet users that are tuning in....I am in the process of establishing accounts with most all instant messaging services.  I will be using software that will combine all the im's into one program at this end.  The username I have is askrootsoffaith.  During the service John and I will be avalable to respond.  so If you want, just find or use any existing IM account and HOPEFULLY (can I say Lord willing) this will get us to the next step of live call in.  

got to go work
dave
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From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com  Tue Nov 20 09:16:43 2007
From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:16:43 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] instant messeging
Message-ID: <CAFFEC80641E3E4183BF90B0E461D6AC04BB367B@msgcpla090.srv.gapac.com>

Am I reading this correctly?  The askrootsoffaith is the one that you
set up on Google isn't it?  Would people be able to use other services
and IM the google account? I know that you always tell me to stay out of
this sort of thing and just focus on the teaching, but my curiosity got
the best of me:-).

 

Dave and Sherry, I need you to make sure that Ben sees his picture on my
web site.  This is one of my favorites.  To see a young man so into the
message thrills my soul.  I really like Ben and enjoy it when he is able
to make the Sabbath service.  

 

Ross K. Nichols

Operations Excellence

Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830

Cellular - 225.588.1575

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:11 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] instant messeging

 

For all the internet users that are tuning in....I am in the process of
establishing accounts with most all instant messaging services.  I will
be using software that will combine all the im's into one program at
this end.  The username I have is askrootsoffaith.  During the service
John and I will be avalable to respond.  so If you want, just find or
use any existing IM account and HOPEFULLY (can I say Lord willing) this
will get us to the next step of live call in.  

 

got to go work

dave

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov 20 09:25:22 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:25:22 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] instant messeging
Message-ID: <112020071525.24615.4742FC620003430C0000602722230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

You go Dave!
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from "Dave Cole" <dhcole1 at cox.net>: -------------- 


For all the internet users that are tuning in....I am in the process of establishing accounts with most all instant messaging services.  I will be using software that will combine all the im's into one program at this end.  The username I have is askrootsoffaith.  During the service John and I will be avalable to respond.  so If you want, just find or use any existing IM account and HOPEFULLY (can I say Lord willing) this will get us to the next step of live call in.  

got to go work
dave
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From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com  Tue Nov 20 09:35:46 2007
From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:35:46 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] instant messeging
Message-ID: <CAFFEC80641E3E4183BF90B0E461D6AC0574B0FE@msgcpla090.srv.gapac.com>

If you figure this out and can explain to me how it will work, I will
put a note in my upcoming newsletter so that everyone knows how to get
their questions to you.  Thanks for all of your work on this Dave!

 

I think that this "Dialogue" is one of the most important things that we
can do.  Shalom, Ross

 

Ross K. Nichols

Operations Excellence

Office - 225.654.1700 ext. 664830

Cellular - 225.588.1575

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:11 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] instant messeging

 

For all the internet users that are tuning in....I am in the process of
establishing accounts with most all instant messaging services.  I will
be using software that will combine all the im's into one program at
this end.  The username I have is askrootsoffaith.  During the service
John and I will be avalable to respond.  so If you want, just find or
use any existing IM account and HOPEFULLY (can I say Lord willing) this
will get us to the next step of live call in.  

 

got to go work

dave

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From dennyj at mac.com  Tue Nov 20 10:42:22 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:42:22 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Music
In-Reply-To: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F457@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
References: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F457@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
Message-ID: <BED4454C-0116-1000-BCDA-48EE92BF7A2A-Webmail-10024@mac.com>

So that's you Glenn. Cool. I used to have a Martin too. Gave it to my oldest son when he was on a worship team and needed one. Actually that is how I got my original Yamaha back again. I can't put a price on that baby.
Thanks for butting in to let me know. The faces are slowly fitting with the names.

Denny


Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play.

 
On Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 07:41AM, "CHATTERTON, WALTER G" <WCHATTE at entergy.com> wrote:
>Hey, Denny,
>
>Glenn butting in here to mention the one I am holding in the picture on
>site - a 1985 vintage Martin D28... I am so proud of her... she has
>served me well thus far! I won't part with her (unless G-d told me to, a
>thought I care not to dwell on)! 
>
>Glenn
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
>[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
>Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:33 AM
>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Music
>
>
>Good morning, John,
>
>Hey, I saw your picture on the website this morning and was drawn to  
>your guitar. I had one just like that many years ago.
>Actually I had several Ovations. One of them was a Classical Stereo  
>guitar. I miss that one. At the moment all I have is my original  
>Yamaha that my dad gave me when I was 16.
>It has been in the family ever since and my son gave it back to me to  
>keep. It has a lot of memories tied to it.  I'm sure yours does too.
>
>Have a great day, my friend!
>
>Denny
>
>_______________________________________________
>_______________________________________________
>
>


From dennyj at mac.com  Tue Nov 20 11:08:40 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:08:40 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Thanks for your prayers
In-Reply-To: <d09.21ffc7bf.3471def7@aim.com>
References: <d09.21ffc7bf.3471def7@aim.com>
Message-ID: <8CD02F44-0116-1000-E2E3-29584F90E2B3-Webmail-10016@mac.com>

Hey all,

New updated photos from our son, Jason.
He has posted some new pictures of Mady for all to see.

The link is http://gallery.mac.com/jasnbeca#gallery

The is one gallery where you can upload pics or movies of yourself greeting her (if you are high-tech)
Otherwise, you may send her an email greeting to becca_joy at mac.com  (that's her mom's email address)
She would love to hear from everyone.

Thanks,
Denny


From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Tue Nov 20 11:27:59 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:27:59 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Music
In-Reply-To: <BED4454C-0116-1000-BCDA-48EE92BF7A2A-Webmail-10024@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F46B@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

:-) and Ross says he intends to add more, so you'll get to "meet" the
whole Hee-Haw gang!

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny and Mary
Joyce Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:42 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Music


So that's you Glenn. Cool. I used to have a Martin too. Gave it to my
oldest son when he was on a worship team and needed one. Actually that
is how I got my original Yamaha back again. I can't put a price on that
baby. Thanks for butting in to let me know. The faces are slowly fitting
with the names.

Denny


Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play.

 
On Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 07:41AM, "CHATTERTON, WALTER G"
<WCHATTE at entergy.com> wrote:
>Hey, Denny,
>
>Glenn butting in here to mention the one I am holding in the picture on

>site - a 1985 vintage Martin D28... I am so proud of her... she has 
>served me well thus far! I won't part with her (unless G-d told me to, 
>a thought I care not to dwell on)!
>
>Glenn
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
>[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
>Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:33 AM
>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Music
>
>
>Good morning, John,
>
>Hey, I saw your picture on the website this morning and was drawn to
>your guitar. I had one just like that many years ago.
>Actually I had several Ovations. One of them was a Classical Stereo  
>guitar. I miss that one. At the moment all I have is my original  
>Yamaha that my dad gave me when I was 16.
>It has been in the family ever since and my son gave it back to me to  
>keep. It has a lot of memories tied to it.  I'm sure yours does too.
>
>Have a great day, my friend!
>
>Denny
>
>_______________________________________________
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_______________________________________________


From dennyj at mac.com  Tue Nov 20 12:12:58 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:12:58 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Mady's Accident
Message-ID: <53324144-0116-1000-DDD7-4BB063755718-Webmail-10016@mac.com>

Here is the email from Mady's daddy, (our son).

Denny

>Hello friends and family,
> 
>We thought we would send out an email getting people up to speed on our
>scary weekend.  I didn't even try to get everyone on this email....so please
>feel free to forward it on.
> 
>For those of you that don't know,  we had a bit of a scare with Mady this
>weekend.  She had a large bank of apartment style mailboxes fall on her.
>There were keys in most of the individual mailslot doors, and one of them
>fractured her skull on impact.  The key actually broke off, penetrating her
>skull and two protective layers around her brain.  We were rushed via
>ambulance to HCMC on Saturday night and ended up in emergency neuro-surgery.
>They cut around the embedded key, removed part of her skull, cleaned the
>wound, replaced the piece of her skull (with the key now removed), and
>secured it with titanium plates.  
> 
>Thank you to all of those that knew about it and were praying.  She has been
>amazing through this whole process.  She didn't loose consciousness or
>complain of much pain outside of getting pricked and poked every couple of
>hours.  Someone mentioned this weekend that life is so fragile and yet the
>human body is so amazing... and we have experienced this first hand.  We
>were released yesterday to a throng of family and friends.  Mady immediately
>shaved papa's head and then we finished shaving the hair that she had left.
>She slept soundly last night and has actually been off of pain meds for 24
>hours or so.  She is completely herself and asked to go to school this
>morning.  Her biggest fear is her shaved head.  She feels she looks weird,
>and if she thinks about it much she is pretty bummed.  
> 
>I have posted a bunch of pictures so you can all see what happened, and see
>that she is beautiful and doing fine (there's video of her dancing and
>joking last night.)  Be warned that a couple of these pictures are graphic
>and sobering.
> 
>There is also a second section for you all to send messages/pictures to
>Mady.  If you have time, shoot a little video or take a picture and let Mady
>know how much we all love her.  There is an "Upload" button on the "Send
>Mady a Message" page.  I'm not sure how many messages the system can handle,
>but there is nothing we would love more right now than to shut down the .mac
>system with messages from loved ones.  
> 
>Here's the address:
> 
>http://gallery.mac.com/jasnbeca
> 
>Feel free to send email messages as well.  Becca's email is probably best.
>Becca_joy at mac.com 
> 
>We love you all.  Thanks for your thoughts and prayers.
>Jason and Becca
> 
> 
>


From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Tue Nov 20 13:05:23 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:05:23 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Thanks for your prayers
In-Reply-To: <8CD02F44-0116-1000-E2E3-29584F90E2B3-Webmail-10016@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20071120140523.NRM71.250080.root@fepweb07>

Thank you for updating us on Mady.  The pictures are great.  Good to see her smile in an "after picture".  I have been praying for her since I first read your post.  I haven't had much time to write since the list began, but I am reading and keeping Mady and your family in my prayers.  

Kim Alvarado
---- Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson <dennyj at mac.com> wrote: 

=============
Hey all,

New updated photos from our son, Jason.
He has posted some new pictures of Mady for all to see.

The link is http://gallery.mac.com/jasnbeca#gallery

The is one gallery where you can upload pics or movies of yourself greeting her (if you are high-tech)
Otherwise, you may send her an email greeting to becca_joy at mac.com  (that's her mom's email address)
She would love to hear from everyone.

Thanks,
Denny
_______________________________________________



From dhcole1 at cox.net  Tue Nov 20 20:52:09 2007
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:52:09 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] IM
Message-ID: <000001c82bf0$8a4a7520$6400a8c0@davesbook>

Up date

so far we have set up the following Instant messeging accounts

1.  gmail  (goggle talk)   username    askrootsoffaith
2.  aol                           username    askrootsoffaith
3.  aim                          username    askrootsoffaith
4.  yahoo                      username    askrootsoffaith
5.  msn                         username     askrootsoffaith at hotmail.com
6.  icq                           username     443322189

if any one else uses another service I will add that to the group.   just email the dialoque list and i will add it.    Also if any one needs help in understanding this PLEASE ask.   we CAN do it.

get your questions answered.......
dave
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From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com  Wed Nov 21 08:42:15 2007
From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:42:15 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls
Message-ID: <CAFFEC80641E3E4183BF90B0E461D6AC0574B12A@msgcpla090.srv.gapac.com>

 

Subject: Fwd: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls

 

Ross and growing gang,

 

As I type this email, I am listening to Ross and Joe's video
conversation. Isn't technology amazing? The ability to time-shift and be
able to, from long distances, be able to participate in things like
this. But it all takes work and money. I just want to again, thank Ross,
Joe, Brian, and the Roots of Faith congregation for making this all
possible. It is going to be exciting to watch this grow. Now I can
honestly say to questioning friends that we have a fellowship. How
convenient in these days of high gas prices that we can sit in the
comfort of our homes and participate in such a cool fellowship. I would
make this suggestion. That we all take what we would normally spend in
gas to drive to an assembly and dedicate it to this ministry to help
Roots of Faith defray the costs of equipment, software, phone lines,
internet costs, etc. to help this ministry to remain and grow. I have
had some conversations with Ross about these things and I am convinced
that he is a man of great integrity and he speaks so highly of Joe and
of Brian (who has dedicated his life to serving in many capacities that
make this possible). These guys can be trusted, of that I am convinced.
I believe the time has come for me to stand with them and their Biblical
vision. My wife and I have decided that we will be making regular
investments in this ministry.

 

May Hashem bless His word as it goes forth!

 

We will be traveling to Mary Joyce's family Thanksgiving this afternoon
to southern Iowa. While there we will have no internet connection so we
will miss any conversation and the service on Saturday. Our youngest son
and his family will be traveling with us, however, and we will have some
great conversations. Justin attends Beth Immanuel in Hudson, WI where he
lives. Beth Immanuel is where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches. As we go to
this Thanksgiving gathering of over 100 relatives who are in the Church
of Christ, we as non trinitarians may be challenged this weekend. Pray
for us, that we would be gracious and wise in our responses. Hopefully,
no one will make anything of it and we can just enjoy the fellowship.
They are all good people and we love them. They, in their own way,
desire restoration. They just haven't gone far enough.

 

Happy Thanksgiving to you all. May your time with family be rich with
memories.

 

Shalom,

Denny and Mary Joyce

 

 

On Nov 20, 2007, at 11:40 PM, Roots of Faith wrote:





Shalom from the synagogue without walls.  I am sitting in the synagogue
typing this note and thinking about all that is going on. I am in awe at
how things are progressing. It tells me that people are searching for a
better understanding of the Bible, and that they want to share their
thoughts with others. To that end, we have set up some things to enable
the sharing of ideas.

We now have a "discussion list". I described this in my last note, so if
you are new to this distribution you can go to my web site and see if it
interests you.  (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/About_Dialogue.htm) 

I also recently made some changes to my splash page at
www.rootsoffaith.org. I made some quick links to some of the more
popular places on my web site including the Blog where all of our weekly
services are published as podcasts, the Dialogue list, and the Listen
Live link.  I think this will make it easier to get where you want to
go.

The class from this past Sabbath has been found! I thought that I had
lost it, but tonight I discovered it hidden away as a result of a filing
mistake on my part.  It has been edited and is up now for your listening
pleasure...or at least for your listening (the pleasure part is more a
matter of taste).

I also posted another song from the HacVShema album.  This one is Glenn
Chatterton's, Offering of Love.  These guys are becoming quite popular.
I hope they stay with me.  I am kinda getting to like them.  I pray that
they at least remember me when they make it big:) 

I spent this past Sunday with Joseph Good of Hatikva Ministries
<http://www.hatikva.org> . I drove to his place and filmed 4 weeks of
shows on the Lost Tribes of Israel. This was quite an experience for me.
First because I can say that it was his ministry that brought me to an
awareness of the Hebraic Roots of Christianity now nearly 2 decades ago.
I consider him to be one of the pioneers of this movement and so it was
an honor to work with him. Even though I had never done video
production, he made me feel very relaxed and I think that it went well.
You be the judge as the first of this 4 week series will be available
for viewing on Wednesday, November 21st. I encourage you to send me some
feedback.  Please be kind as this was new for me.  I may have had that
deer in the headlights look at the beginning. He and his wife Debbie are
great friends and I appreciate them.  Go to the Universal Torah Network
<http://universaltorah.com/programming/category/hatikva>  on Wednesday
to view the show.

Be sure and catch the service live this coming Sabbath.  Go to my site
<http://www.rootsoffaith.org>  and click on the listen live link to join
us.

Thanks for your prayers, good wishes and support.

Love and shalom, Ross
Click here to unsubscribe
<http://www.imsclients.com/listmail/unsubscribe.php?M=24389&N=115&L=11&C
=056d00eebc0238ac418dfbc92ea0b943> 

 

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Nov 21 17:44:37 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:44:37 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls
In-Reply-To: <CAFFEC80641E3E4183BF90B0E461D6AC0574B12A@msgcpla090.srv.gapac.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c82c98$7a211a20$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Dennis,

 

Having known Ross, Joe and Brian for nearly two decades, I can vouch for
their integrity.  It was thru Joe and Hatikvah Ministries in the late 1980's
that my husband, Roger, and I met Brian and Ross and where we began
searching for the "roots of our faith," which led us back to the Ancient
Paths and a love for G-d, Torah and Israel.  We will be forever indebted to
Joe and his ministry and to people like Brian and Ross and many more friends
that we have met along the way and grown to love as family.  It is so good
to see this new "surge" coming out of Louisiana, and such a blessing that we
have the internet fellowship. It is so good to have you and Mary Joyce with
us all and to see that your support is so solidly based. 

 

In an earlier email, when I told you that Roger and I had spent a lot of
time in Minnesota the past few years, you said you were from Fridley, and
were living in the house that had belonged to your parents and that you were
block captain of your street.  We are very familiar with Fridley as we
worked claims up there.  It must be so nice to have deep roots like that.
Growing up as an Air Force "brat," we moved every few years.  I actually
went to 4 different high schools.  My traveling didn't come to an end as my
first husband was a Church of Christ preacher.  My second and present
husband, Roger, was an insurance catastrophe adjuster, so my travels
continued up until this year.  I have had to place my roots in HaShem and in
my faith, and for that I am so immensely grateful. 

 

 I will certainly be praying for the two of you and your family this
Thanksgiving holiday.  My brother, James, and I were brought up in the
Church of Christ, we can certainly relate.  Practically all the members of
Dad's family were either preachers, teachers, elders, deacons, song leaders;
and like your wife's family, great people. I just don't think they have ever
been in a place to have seriously questioned their faith; and as you well
know, once the questioning starts, and you find a multitude of gaps, there
is really no going back.  Hopefully you will be able to enjoy Thanksgiving
together as family and enjoy the love that binds you together. 

 

Happy Thanksgiving and Shalom,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Nichols, Ross K.
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:42 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls

 

 

Subject: Fwd: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls

 

Ross and growing gang,

 

As I type this email, I am listening to Ross and Joe's video conversation.
Isn't technology amazing? The ability to time-shift and be able to, from
long distances, be able to participate in things like this. But it all takes
work and money. I just want to again, thank Ross, Joe, Brian, and the Roots
of Faith congregation for making this all possible. It is going to be
exciting to watch this grow. Now I can honestly say to questioning friends
that we have a fellowship. How convenient in these days of high gas prices
that we can sit in the comfort of our homes and participate in such a cool
fellowship. I would make this suggestion. That we all take what we would
normally spend in gas to drive to an assembly and dedicate it to this
ministry to help Roots of Faith defray the costs of equipment, software,
phone lines, internet costs, etc. to help this ministry to remain and grow.
I have had some conversations with Ross about these things and I am
convinced that he is a man of great integrity and he speaks so highly of Joe
and of Brian (who has dedicated his life to serving in many capacities that
make this possible). These guys can be trusted, of that I am convinced. I
believe the time has come for me to stand with them and their Biblical
vision. My wife and I have decided that we will be making regular
investments in this ministry.

 

May Hashem bless His word as it goes forth!

 

We will be traveling to Mary Joyce's family Thanksgiving this afternoon to
southern Iowa. While there we will have no internet connection so we will
miss any conversation and the service on Saturday. Our youngest son and his
family will be traveling with us, however, and we will have some great
conversations. Justin attends Beth Immanuel in Hudson, WI where he lives.
Beth Immanuel is where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches. As we go to this
Thanksgiving gathering of over 100 relatives who are in the Church of
Christ, we as non trinitarians may be challenged this weekend. Pray for us,
that we would be gracious and wise in our responses. Hopefully, no one will
make anything of it and we can just enjoy the fellowship. They are all good
people and we love them. They, in their own way, desire restoration. They
just haven't gone far enough.

 

Happy Thanksgiving to you all. May your time with family be rich with
memories.

 

Shalom,

Denny and Mary Joyce

 

 

On Nov 20, 2007, at 11:40 PM, Roots of Faith wrote:

 

Shalom from the synagogue without walls.  I am sitting in the synagogue
typing this note and thinking about all that is going on. I am in awe at how
things are progressing. It tells me that people are searching for a better
understanding of the Bible, and that they want to share their thoughts with
others. To that end, we have set up some things to enable the sharing of
ideas.

We now have a "discussion list". I described this in my last note, so if you
are new to this distribution you can go to my web site and see if it
interests you.  (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/About_Dialogue.htm) 

I also recently made some changes to my splash page at www.rootsoffaith.org.
I made some quick links to some of the more popular places on my web site
including the Blog where all of our weekly services are published as
podcasts, the Dialogue list, and the Listen Live link.  I think this will
make it easier to get where you want to go.

The class from this past Sabbath has been found! I thought that I had lost
it, but tonight I discovered it hidden away as a result of a filing mistake
on my part.  It has been edited and is up now for your listening
pleasure...or at least for your listening (the pleasure part is more a
matter of taste).

I also posted another song from the HacVShema album.  This one is Glenn
Chatterton's, Offering of Love.  These guys are becoming quite popular.  I
hope they stay with me.  I am kinda getting to like them.  I pray that they
at least remember me when they make it big:) 

I spent this past Sunday with Joseph Good of Hatikva Ministries
<http://www.hatikva.org> . I drove to his place and filmed 4 weeks of shows
on the Lost Tribes of Israel. This was quite an experience for me. First
because I can say that it was his ministry that brought me to an awareness
of the Hebraic Roots of Christianity now nearly 2 decades ago. I consider
him to be one of the pioneers of this movement and so it was an honor to
work with him. Even though I had never done video production, he made me
feel very relaxed and I think that it went well. You be the judge as the
first of this 4 week series will be available for viewing on Wednesday,
November 21st. I encourage you to send me some feedback.  Please be kind as
this was new for me.  I may have had that deer in the headlights look at the
beginning. He and his wife Debbie are great friends and I appreciate them.
Go to the Universal <http://universaltorah.com/programming/category/hatikva>
Torah Network on Wednesday to view the show.

Be sure and catch the service live this coming Sabbath.  Go to my site
<http://www.rootsoffaith.org>  and click on the listen live link to join us.

Thanks for your prayers, good wishes and support.

Love and shalom, Ross
Click
<http://www.imsclients.com/listmail/unsubscribe.php?M=24389&N=115&L=11&C=056
d00eebc0238ac418dfbc92ea0b943>  here to unsubscribe

 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 21 22:08:30 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:08:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph Good Show Wed Night
Message-ID: <BAY115-W5CE4841B36B5C8E4B0C3DBA790@phx.gbl>


Hi Ross,
 
Just saw you on Joseph Good's show on the Universal Torah Network.  It was a great show!  You looked like you'd been doing TV all your life.  And the teaching was excellent.  I'm going to watch it again tomorrow.  This is so terrific!
 
I also agree with Denny about regularly supporting Roots of Faith.  We DO have a Synagogue Without Walls after all!  And we ARE the congregation!  May Hashem multiply our numbers, and may we become a great multitude!
 
AM YISRAEL CHI!!!!!  (People of Israel live!!!!!)
 
It's happening! ~
 
Pat
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From shcole1 at cox.net  Wed Nov 21 22:32:17 2007
From: shcole1 at cox.net (Sherry Cole)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:32:17 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph Good Show Wed Night
References: <BAY115-W5CE4841B36B5C8E4B0C3DBA790@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <002801c82cc0$a9e2dfa0$6700a8c0@greenuptxoxqls>

Hi y'all,
I just watched Joseph Good's show, too. I agree with Pat. It was almost as good as it is every Saturday in person at Roots of Faith - the only difference I could tell , Ross is that on Saturdays I don't have to contend with my dogs under my feet as I sit at the computer. 
Blessings,
Sherry Cole----- Original Message ----- 
  From: patricia robbins 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 10:08 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph Good Show Wed Night


  Hi Ross,
   
  Just saw you on Joseph Good's show on the Universal Torah Network.  It was a great show!  You looked like you'd been doing TV all your life.  And the teaching was excellent.  I'm going to watch it again tomorrow.  This is so terrific!
   
  I also agree with Denny about regularly supporting Roots of Faith.  We DO have a Synagogue Without Walls after all!  And we ARE the congregation!  May Hashem multiply our numbers, and may we become a great multitude!
   
  AM YISRAEL CHI!!!!!  (People of Israel live!!!!!)
   
  It's happening! ~
   
  Pat



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 21 22:43:57 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:43:57 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph Good Show Wed Night
In-Reply-To: <002801c82cc0$a9e2dfa0$6700a8c0@greenuptxoxqls>
References: <BAY115-W5CE4841B36B5C8E4B0C3DBA790@phx.gbl>
	<002801c82cc0$a9e2dfa0$6700a8c0@greenuptxoxqls>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W40FE7FCC82F77F486CAC8FBA790@phx.gbl>


Just noticed I mispelled Chai!  


From: shcole1 at cox.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph Good Show Wed NightDate: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:32:17 -0600



Hi y'all,
I just watched Joseph Good's show, too. I agree with Pat. It was almost as good as it is every Saturday in person at Roots of Faith - the only difference I could tell , Ross is that on Saturdays I don't have to contend with my dogs under my feet as I sit at the computer. 
Blessings,
Sherry Cole----- Original Message ----- 

From: patricia robbins 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 10:08 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph Good Show Wed Night
Hi Ross, Just saw you on Joseph Good's show on the Universal Torah Network.  It was a great show!  You looked like you'd been doing TV all your life.  And the teaching was excellent.  I'm going to watch it again tomorrow.  This is so terrific! I also agree with Denny about regularly supporting Roots of Faith.  We DO have a Synagogue Without Walls after all!  And we ARE the congregation!  May Hashem multiply our numbers, and may we become a great multitude! AM YISRAEL CHI!!!!!  (People of Israel live!!!!!) It's happening! ~ Pat



_______________________________________________
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Thu Nov 22 00:41:59 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:41:59 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Thanksgiving
Message-ID: <d5c.12e0a6f9.34767eb7@aol.com>

Dear friends - Shalom on this day (or early morning) of Thanksgiving!
 
This is one of my favorite times of the year.  The weather is nice (it  is 
cool and rainy here in Louisiana). As I type this note, I can hear the rain  
falling outside the window of my study. 
 
I had almost fallen asleep, but was awakened with a thought that is to  
become the topic for this Sabbath's class.  I would share the topic but  want it to 
be a surprise. The torah portion for this week's class is Genesis  chapter 11 
and the prophet reading is from Zephaniah. The class should prove to  be 
quite interesting.  For Saturday, I will be teaching on an element  of eschatology 
and the only clue I can give about the "thought" that I had is  that it 
relates to the "false messiah" or anti-Christ as he is sometimes  called.
 
All I can say is that you will not want to miss this week's class! So,  enjoy 
some good food and fellowship with family and friends if you can  tomorrow.  
If you have to spend the day alone, use the time to pray and  study. Some of 
you might be lonely, but quite often these "alone times" can  prove to be very 
beneficial. I will certainly be thanking our Creator for what  is happening 
with our little synagogue here in Saint Francisville that extends  now across 
oceans and continents in its membership! I pray that you are blessed  by this 
new association as I am.
 
I very much appreciate the encouraging words from many of you concerning  the 
video production. I truly enjoyed it and am praying and thinking hard about  
doing a show on a regular basis. I want to take advantage of every form of 
media  to reach people with a Torah Faith message.  I will keep you all  posted.
 
Be ready for some end times teaching on Saturday and what will most likely  
be an exciting Dialogue afterwards.
 
Shalom shalom and good night!  Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 22 09:45:03 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:45:03 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Thanksgiving
Message-ID: <112220071545.20851.4745A3FF00054A0F0000517322230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

'monin', bro - did you get the song?
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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Thu Nov 22 09:46:59 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:46:59 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Thanksgiving
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5627@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Which song?

"Be excellent to each other"
               Bill & Ted

John C.
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thu Nov 22 09:45:03 2007
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Happy Thanksgiving

'monin', bro - did you get the song?
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From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Thu Nov 22 17:02:09 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:02:09 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Iraq in the Bible
In-Reply-To: <001a01c82c92$05283e70$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <20071122180209.TUP5P.343071.root@fepweb14>

Something I sent to my mom that I do think the list should see.

Kim
---- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote: 

=============
Double WOW!  This is quite amazing! I think maybe it takes seeing the whole
list together to see the importance of Iraq. The quote from the Koran about
the Eagle is phenomenal!  Maybe that is why we are really there in the first
place.  Did I read somewhere that Osama Bin Laden was originally from Saudia
ARABIA??? If so, he definitely awakened a fearsome Eagle when he chose to
bomb the Twin Towers on 9/11!  Why don't you send this to the list?  Maybe
even Roots of Faith as Ross and Joe are getting together to do something on
the Lost Tribes?  I am getting ready to look up the commentary on Micah on
the Yair Davidy site.  Thanks, Kim.  Love to you and Skip and little Skipper
(who does not like to be called that anymore),

Mom  

-----Original Message-----
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net [mailto:kim.alvarado at charter.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:52 PM
To: Mom
Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: FW: Wow]



Mom,

Skip sent this to me.  Interesting because we were just talking about it.
It was part of a chain letter.  ( I erased that part.)  I replied with the
link to the Brit Am site.  Their current headline concerns the Lost Tribes
returning through Iraq (Kurdistan).  I also searched their site for Iraq and
part of the email numbered 1-16 came up.  Someone had apparently received
this email and questioned Yair Davidy.  This is his response: The thing
about Amos (no.10) is new to me.
To the list should be added the possibility that the Lost Ten Tribes will
begin to return
via Iraq.
See the Brit-Am Commentary to the Book of Micah:

Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:37:44 -0600
From: Skip Alvarado <skip.alvarado at fkfabgroup.com>
To:  kim.alvarado at charter.net,  falvarado2 at comcast.net
Subject: [Fwd: FW: Wow]



 


                    VERY INTERESTING-
                    1. The Garden of Eden was in Iraq

                    2. Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, was the cradle of
                    civilization!

                    3. Noah built the ark in Iraq

                    4. The Tower of Babel was in Iraq

                    5. Abraham was from Ur, which is in Southern Iraq !

                    6. Isaac's wife Rebekah is from Nahor, which is in
                    Iraq !

                    7. Jacob met Rachel in Iraq

                    8. Jonah preached in Nineveh - which is in Iraq

                    9. Assyria, which is in Iraq, conquered the ten
                    tribes of Israel

                    10. Amos cried out in Iraq !

                    11 Babylon , which is in Iraq , destroyed Jerusalem

                    12. Daniel was in the lion's den in Iraq !

                    13. The three Hebrew children were in the fire in
                    Iraq (Jesus had been in Iraq also as the fourth
                    person in the Fiery Furnace!)

                    14. Belshazzar, the King of Babylon saw the "writing
                    on the wall" in Iraq

                    15. Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, carried the
                    Jews captive into Iraq

                    16. Ezekiel preached in Iraq .

                    17. T he wise men were from Iraq .

                    18. Peter preached in Iraq

                    19. The "Empire of Man" described in Revelation is
                    called Babylon// /, which was a city in/ //Iraq !/

                    /And you have probably seen this one: Israel is the
                    nation most often mentioned in the Bible.
                    But do you know which nation is second? //
                    It is Iraq ! //
                    However, that is not the name that is used in the
                    Bible. /
                     /
                    The names used in the Bible are Babylon , Land of
                    Shinar , and Mesopotamia The word Mesopotamia means
                    between the two rivers, more exactly between the Tigris
                    And Euphrates Rivers .. /
                     /
                    The name Iraq , means country with deep roots.

                    Indeed Iraq is a country with deep roots and is a
                    very significant country in the Bible.

                    No other nation, except Israel , has more history
                    and prophecy associated/ /
                    With it than Iraq

                    And also, This is something to think about: //Since
                    America is typically represented by an eagle. /
                     /
                    Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages //...

                    The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic
                    Bible) //

                    Koran //(/ /9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of
                    Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of
                    the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of
                    Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in
                    despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the
                    Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; //
                    And there was peace./*/
                    (Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?!/**/

                   
                     */
                    This is a ribbon for soldiers fighting in Iraq . /*
                     */
                   
-- 
=============






From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Thu Nov 22 17:02:15 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:02:15 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Iraq in the Bible
In-Reply-To: <001a01c82c92$05283e70$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <20071122180216.MZQUN.343074.root@fepweb14>

Something I sent to my mom that I do think the list should see.

Kim
---- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote: 

=============
Double WOW!  This is quite amazing! I think maybe it takes seeing the whole
list together to see the importance of Iraq. The quote from the Koran about
the Eagle is phenomenal!  Maybe that is why we are really there in the first
place.  Did I read somewhere that Osama Bin Laden was originally from Saudia
ARABIA??? If so, he definitely awakened a fearsome Eagle when he chose to
bomb the Twin Towers on 9/11!  Why don't you send this to the list?  Maybe
even Roots of Faith as Ross and Joe are getting together to do something on
the Lost Tribes?  I am getting ready to look up the commentary on Micah on
the Yair Davidy site.  Thanks, Kim.  Love to you and Skip and little Skipper
(who does not like to be called that anymore),

Mom  

-----Original Message-----
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net [mailto:kim.alvarado at charter.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:52 PM
To: Mom
Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: FW: Wow]



Mom,

Skip sent this to me.  Interesting because we were just talking about it.
It was part of a chain letter.  ( I erased that part.)  I replied with the
link to the Brit Am site.  Their current headline concerns the Lost Tribes
returning through Iraq (Kurdistan).  I also searched their site for Iraq and
part of the email numbered 1-16 came up.  Someone had apparently received
this email and questioned Yair Davidy.  This is his response: The thing
about Amos (no.10) is new to me.
To the list should be added the possibility that the Lost Ten Tribes will
begin to return
via Iraq.
See the Brit-Am Commentary to the Book of Micah:

Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:37:44 -0600
From: Skip Alvarado <skip.alvarado at fkfabgroup.com>
To:  kim.alvarado at charter.net,  falvarado2 at comcast.net
Subject: [Fwd: FW: Wow]



 


                    VERY INTERESTING-
                    1. The Garden of Eden was in Iraq

                    2. Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, was the cradle of
                    civilization!

                    3. Noah built the ark in Iraq

                    4. The Tower of Babel was in Iraq

                    5. Abraham was from Ur, which is in Southern Iraq !

                    6. Isaac's wife Rebekah is from Nahor, which is in
                    Iraq !

                    7. Jacob met Rachel in Iraq

                    8. Jonah preached in Nineveh - which is in Iraq

                    9. Assyria, which is in Iraq, conquered the ten
                    tribes of Israel

                    10. Amos cried out in Iraq !

                    11 Babylon , which is in Iraq , destroyed Jerusalem

                    12. Daniel was in the lion's den in Iraq !

                    13. The three Hebrew children were in the fire in
                    Iraq (Jesus had been in Iraq also as the fourth
                    person in the Fiery Furnace!)

                    14. Belshazzar, the King of Babylon saw the "writing
                    on the wall" in Iraq

                    15. Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, carried the
                    Jews captive into Iraq

                    16. Ezekiel preached in Iraq .

                    17. T he wise men were from Iraq .

                    18. Peter preached in Iraq

                    19. The "Empire of Man" described in Revelation is
                    called Babylon// /, which was a city in/ //Iraq !/

                    /And you have probably seen this one: Israel is the
                    nation most often mentioned in the Bible.
                    But do you know which nation is second? //
                    It is Iraq ! //
                    However, that is not the name that is used in the
                    Bible. /
                     /
                    The names used in the Bible are Babylon , Land of
                    Shinar , and Mesopotamia The word Mesopotamia means
                    between the two rivers, more exactly between the Tigris
                    And Euphrates Rivers .. /
                     /
                    The name Iraq , means country with deep roots.

                    Indeed Iraq is a country with deep roots and is a
                    very significant country in the Bible.

                    No other nation, except Israel , has more history
                    and prophecy associated/ /
                    With it than Iraq

                    And also, This is something to think about: //Since
                    America is typically represented by an eagle. /
                     /
                    Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages //...

                    The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic
                    Bible) //

                    Koran //(/ /9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of
                    Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of
                    the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of
                    Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in
                    despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the
                    Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; //
                    And there was peace./*/
                    (Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?!/**/

                   
                     */
                    This is a ribbon for soldiers fighting in Iraq . /*
                     */
                   
-- 
=============






From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com  Thu Nov 22 17:48:45 2007
From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:48:45 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Iraq in the Bible
Message-ID: <CAFFEC80641E3E4183BF90B0E461D6AC0574B142@msgcpla090.srv.gapac.com>

Thanks Kim.
This went around some time back. I have a copy of the Koran and the reference to Surah 9:11 does not-as I recall, say what this note says. I can look it up when I get home.

----- Original Message -----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
To: ui: mcarr.us <ui at mcarr.us>; dialogue: rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thu Nov 22 17:02:15 2007
Subject: [Dialogue] Iraq in the Bible

Something I sent to my mom that I do think the list should see.

Kim
---- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote: 

=============
Double WOW!  This is quite amazing! I think maybe it takes seeing the whole
list together to see the importance of Iraq. The quote from the Koran about
the Eagle is phenomenal!  Maybe that is why we are really there in the first
place.  Did I read somewhere that Osama Bin Laden was originally from Saudia
ARABIA??? If so, he definitely awakened a fearsome Eagle when he chose to
bomb the Twin Towers on 9/11!  Why don't you send this to the list?  Maybe
even Roots of Faith as Ross and Joe are getting together to do something on
the Lost Tribes?  I am getting ready to look up the commentary on Micah on
the Yair Davidy site.  Thanks, Kim.  Love to you and Skip and little Skipper
(who does not like to be called that anymore),

Mom  

-----Original Message-----
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net [mailto:kim.alvarado at charter.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:52 PM
To: Mom
Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: FW: Wow]



Mom,

Skip sent this to me.  Interesting because we were just talking about it.
It was part of a chain letter.  ( I erased that part.)  I replied with the
link to the Brit Am site.  Their current headline concerns the Lost Tribes
returning through Iraq (Kurdistan).  I also searched their site for Iraq and
part of the email numbered 1-16 came up.  Someone had apparently received
this email and questioned Yair Davidy.  This is his response: The thing
about Amos (no.10) is new to me.
To the list should be added the possibility that the Lost Ten Tribes will
begin to return
via Iraq.
See the Brit-Am Commentary to the Book of Micah:

Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:37:44 -0600
From: Skip Alvarado <skip.alvarado at fkfabgroup.com>
To:  kim.alvarado at charter.net,  falvarado2 at comcast.net
Subject: [Fwd: FW: Wow]



 


                    VERY INTERESTING-
                    1. The Garden of Eden was in Iraq

                    2. Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, was the cradle of
                    civilization!

                    3. Noah built the ark in Iraq

                    4. The Tower of Babel was in Iraq

                    5. Abraham was from Ur, which is in Southern Iraq !

                    6. Isaac's wife Rebekah is from Nahor, which is in
                    Iraq !

                    7. Jacob met Rachel in Iraq

                    8. Jonah preached in Nineveh - which is in Iraq

                    9. Assyria, which is in Iraq, conquered the ten
                    tribes of Israel

                    10. Amos cried out in Iraq !

                    11 Babylon , which is in Iraq , destroyed Jerusalem

                    12. Daniel was in the lion's den in Iraq !

                    13. The three Hebrew children were in the fire in
                    Iraq (Jesus had been in Iraq also as the fourth
                    person in the Fiery Furnace!)

                    14. Belshazzar, the King of Babylon saw the "writing
                    on the wall" in Iraq

                    15. Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, carried the
                    Jews captive into Iraq

                    16. Ezekiel preached in Iraq .

                    17. T he wise men were from Iraq .

                    18. Peter preached in Iraq

                    19. The "Empire of Man" described in Revelation is
                    called Babylon// /, which was a city in/ //Iraq !/

                    /And you have probably seen this one: Israel is the
                    nation most often mentioned in the Bible.
                    But do you know which nation is second? //
                    It is Iraq ! //
                    However, that is not the name that is used in the
                    Bible. /
                     /
                    The names used in the Bible are Babylon , Land of
                    Shinar , and Mesopotamia The word Mesopotamia means
                    between the two rivers, more exactly between the Tigris
                    And Euphrates Rivers .. /
                     /
                    The name Iraq , means country with deep roots.

                    Indeed Iraq is a country with deep roots and is a
                    very significant country in the Bible.

                    No other nation, except Israel , has more history
                    and prophecy associated/ /
                    With it than Iraq

                    And also, This is something to think about: //Since
                    America is typically represented by an eagle. /
                     /
                    Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages //...

                    The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic
                    Bible) //

                    Koran //(/ /9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of
                    Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of
                    the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of
                    Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in
                    despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the
                    Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; //
                    And there was peace./*/
                    (Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?!/**/

                   
                     */
                    This is a ribbon for soldiers fighting in Iraq . /*
                     */
                   
-- 
=============




_______________________________________________



From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 22 17:50:37 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:50:37 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Iraq in the Bible
Message-ID: <112220072350.28295.474615CD0002C0F100006E8722243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

I looked it up as well, and it does not.
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Thu Nov 22 20:41:26 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:41:26 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Iraq in the Bible
Message-ID: <bd0.1f962f0b.347797d6@aol.com>

Just a note on the reading of Surah 9 in the Koran...but first, the content  
of this note is quite interesting Kim and I am glad that you sent it.   This 
region of the world plays such a prominent part in the history and prophecy  of 
the Bible. 
 
It may be of interest to you all that we are introduced to "Babel" for the  
first time this very week in the triennial cycle readings!  Now I realize  that 
Kim is quite the Bible student and probably already noticed this.  In  fact, 
she has communicated with me recently on some things related to dates in  the 
Biblical narrative etc.  It must run through those Taborite  veins:)
 
The Biblical writer associates the name Babel with "Confusion", while the  
Assyrian means "Gate of God". Two different views of the same name.  This  idea 
plays heavily in my notes for the class this week...
 
So, here is the reading from the Koran. The 9th division / surah is called  
"Repentance" and in the 11th verse we read, "But if they repent and establish  
worship and pay the poor due, then they are your brethren in religion. We 
detail  Our revelations for a people who have knowledge."
 
Shalom, Ross
 
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From mflowrey at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 22 21:13:19 2007
From: mflowrey at hotmail.com (Florence Lowrey)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:13:19 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Happy Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <d5c.12e0a6f9.34767eb7@aol.com>
References: <d5c.12e0a6f9.34767eb7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY124-W33611851AAF328F09371FEDE7A0@phx.gbl>


Ross, I also enjoy this special time of Thanksgiving. It is a time of blessings as our family gathers together. Last year I informed my family that we would only be gathering atThanksgiving. I believe they were relieved. Thank you Jesus. Hope to visit you soon. Because of Him, Florence   
 


From: RNDAVAR at aol.comDate: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:41:59 -0500To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] Happy Thanksgiving

Dear friends - Shalom on this day (or early morning) of Thanksgiving!
 
This is one of my favorite times of the year.  The weather is nice (it is cool and rainy here in Louisiana). As I type this note, I can hear the rain falling outside the window of my study. 
 
I had almost fallen asleep, but was awakened with a thought that is to become the topic for this Sabbath's class.  I would share the topic but want it to be a surprise. The torah portion for this week's class is Genesis chapter 11 and the prophet reading is from Zephaniah. The class should prove to be quite interesting.  For Saturday, I will be teaching on an element of eschatology and the only clue I can give about the "thought" that I had is that it relates to the "false messiah" or anti-Christ as he is sometimes called.
 
All I can say is that you will not want to miss this week's class! So, enjoy some good food and fellowship with family and friends if you can tomorrow.  If you have to spend the day alone, use the time to pray and study. Some of you might be lonely, but quite often these "alone times" can prove to be very beneficial. I will certainly be thanking our Creator for what is happening with our little synagogue here in Saint Francisville that extends now across oceans and continents in its membership! I pray that you are blessed by this new association as I am.
 
I very much appreciate the encouraging words from many of you concerning the video production. I truly enjoyed it and am praying and thinking hard about doing a show on a regular basis. I want to take advantage of every form of media to reach people with a Torah Faith message.  I will keep you all posted.
 
Be ready for some end times teaching on Saturday and what will most likely be an exciting Dialogue afterwards.
 
Shalom shalom and good night!  Ross
 
Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org


Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
_________________________________________________________________
Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 23 11:25:07 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:25:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
In-Reply-To: <bd0.1f962f0b.347797d6@aol.com>
References: <bd0.1f962f0b.347797d6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B38A3C6F-DE11-43D2-8FBA-BA3C18773FC0@earthlink.net>

Dear Ross, Kim, and all,

I am convinced that one of the most important sections of the Prophets  
to study when it comes to the subject of "Babylon," whether past or  
future, is Jeremiah 50-51. Clearly Jeremiah lived through the dark and  
horrible period of the invasion of ancient Babylon into the land of  
Israel and Judah. The devastation was horrible. But then Jeremiah's  
words and descriptions in those chapters clearly show us that he has  
been allowed to look far beyond his own time.

Babylon, much like Edom and Amalek, becomes a symbolic way of  
referring to cosmic forces that perennially arise in history, the  
"cosmic negative" forces behind various world powers who oppose the  
B'nai Elohim. We see this hinted at in the "battle" of Exodus 17:8-16  
where we see this "hand against the throne of Yah," and a perpetual  
war between Amalek and Yehovah. We see the same in Isaiah 14 (the  
mistranslation "Lucifer" has nothing to do with Satan), where the  
"King of Babylon" is more than just the human ruler Nebuchadnezer. And  
yes, Genesis 10 set the stage, in that Nimrod (name means "he rebels")  
actually is the founder of "civilization" and of Babel/Confusion.

But back to Jer 50-51. In Jeremiah 51:41 (compare Jer 25:26) we see  
the mysterious name SHESHACH. In Hebrew it is spelled with three  
letters: Shin, Shin, Kaf. Using an ancient scramble code called  
Atbash, in which the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet is paired with  
the first, and and so forth (Thus Alef=Tav), we see that Sheshach is a  
code for Babel: Shin=Bet; Kaf=Lamed, thus Bet, Bet, Lamed, the three  
Hebrew letters spelling Babel. This Atbash code is also used in the  
Dead Sea Scrolls, as discussed by Hugh Schonfield in his much  
neglected book, The Essene Oddysey.

Anyway, I would really recommend a careful reading of the chapters of  
Jeremiah that pertain to ancient Babylon. Remember, Jeremiah is told  
to WRITE his prophecies in a book, the preserve them for a future  
time, a people in the "latter days" who would understand. And beyond  
any doubt it is Jeremiah who really is given the clearest vision,  
thematically, of the events pertaining to the "last days" and  
particularly the ingathering of the Tribes (the Branch raised up "for"  
David, the ingathering, the New Covenant, the Fall of Babylon, etc.).  
No matter what one things of the Iraq War and its politics today, it  
is surely amazing that we have lived to see the forces of "Joseph and  
his companions" occupy the ancient territory of the Babylonians. One  
has to pinch oneself to realize it is true...

Shabbat Shalom,

James Tabor



On Nov 22, 2007, at 9:41 PM, rndavar at aol.com wrote:

> Just a note on the reading of Surah 9 in the Koran...but first, the  
> content of this note is quite interesting Kim and I am glad that you  
> sent it.  This region of the world plays such a prominent part in  
> the history and prophecy of the Bible.
>
> It may be of interest to you all that we are introduced to "Babel"  
> for the first time this very week in the triennial cycle readings!   
> Now I realize that Kim is quite the Bible student and probably  
> already noticed this.  In fact, she has communicated with me  
> recently on some things related to dates in the Biblical narrative  
> etc.  It must run through those Taborite veins:)
>
> The Biblical writer associates the name Babel with "Confusion",  
> while the Assyrian means "Gate of God". Two different views of the  
> same name.  This idea plays heavily in my notes for the class this  
> week...
>
> So, here is the reading from the Koran. The 9th division / surah is  
> called "Repentance" and in the 11th verse we read, "But if they  
> repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then they are  
> your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people  
> who have knowledge."
>
> Shalom, Ross
>
>
> Ross K. Nichols
> www.RootsofFaith.org
>
>
>
>
> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top  
> money wasters of 2007.
> _______________________________________________

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Nov 23 14:37:56 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:37:56 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
Message-ID: <d61.16b023d5.34789424@aol.com>

Thanks James for this!  I am absolutely focused on these things for  the 
class tomorrow.  You mention the use of Sheshach in chapter 25 of  Jeremiah.  This 
is one of the things that I have been studying today.   It is often 
overlooked that this is the very material that Daniel was studying  when he recorded 
the words that are presently preserved in the 9th chapter of  the work 
attributed to him.
 
I can't wait until the class tomorrow! I hesitate to say much more as this  
is all swirling around in my mind as I type this note.  
 
There is one more Atbash in these passages and it is found in Jeremiah  51:1. 
 There we read the word "leb-qamai" which when interpreted using this  Atbash 
method yields, Chasdim - Chaldea - Babylonians!
 
Indeed this is the stuff I love!  I have always found it quite  interesting 
to study the words that inspired other prophets, such as here in  Daniel 9 to 
find that he was studying the words of Jeremiah 25.  That we  can study these 
very words in our day is a remarkable testimony to those who  preserved these 
texts for us down to this day.
 
Many are shopping today, but I am searching for understanding among the  
words written long ago by these men who were driven by the Spirit of God.
 
I am feeling inspired today and I hope to convey that in tomorrow's class.  
We are certainly living in exciting times when the Spirit is beginning to call  
out to myriads, "Come out of her my people!"
 
May we all listen to that call and begin our trek home to Zion!
 
an Early Shabbat Shalom, Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 23 15:05:33 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:05:33 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
In-Reply-To: <d61.16b023d5.34789424@aol.com>
References: <d61.16b023d5.34789424@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W303F3B655673D20B423174BA7A0@phx.gbl>


AMEN to that, Ross!  I can hardly wait till tomorrow's class!  And thank you too, James, for inspiring me to search the Scriptures.  I love to do this and you always provoke me to action!
 
Does not Babylon also represent an anti-G-d religion?  So besides being a place and a cosmic entity, is it not also a cult?  
 
And thank you, Kim, for bringing up the whole subject of Babylon.  This is very rich material!
 
Good Shabbas,
 
Pat


From: RNDAVAR at aol.comDate: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:37:56 -0500Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Babylon/SheshachTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; ui at mcarr.usCC: 

Thanks James for this!  I am absolutely focused on these things for the class tomorrow.  You mention the use of Sheshach in chapter 25 of Jeremiah.  This is one of the things that I have been studying today.  It is often overlooked that this is the very material that Daniel was studying when he recorded the words that are presently preserved in the 9th chapter of the work attributed to him.
 
I can't wait until the class tomorrow! I hesitate to say much more as this is all swirling around in my mind as I type this note.  
 
There is one more Atbash in these passages and it is found in Jeremiah 51:1.  There we read the word "leb-qamai" which when interpreted using this Atbash method yields, Chasdim - Chaldea - Babylonians!
 
Indeed this is the stuff I love!  I have always found it quite interesting to study the words that inspired other prophets, such as here in Daniel 9 to find that he was studying the words of Jeremiah 25.  That we can study these very words in our day is a remarkable testimony to those who preserved these texts for us down to this day.
 
Many are shopping today, but I am searching for understanding among the words written long ago by these men who were driven by the Spirit of God.
 
I am feeling inspired today and I hope to convey that in tomorrow's class. We are certainly living in exciting times when the Spirit is beginning to call out to myriads, "Come out of her my people!"
 
May we all listen to that call and begin our trek home to Zion!
 
an Early Shabbat Shalom, Ross
 
Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org


Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 23 15:22:07 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:22:07 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
Message-ID: <112320072122.26671.4747447F0003BD9A0000682F22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

so... what of Zerubbabel? Whose name means decendent of Babylon... (ref. Haggai 2:23)
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Nov 23 15:43:39 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:43:39 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
Message-ID: <cdb.1f2ed6b9.3478a38b@aol.com>

 
 
In a message dated 11/23/2007 3:06:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com writes:

Does  not Babylon also represent an anti-G-d religion?  So besides being a  
place and a cosmic entity, is it not also a cult?   



Keep this up Pat and I will invite you to teach in the  synagogue!  We are 
all thinking along the same lines.  I am having a  tough time refraining from 
laying some of this material out on this list.  
 
I assure you that I am always as excited about sharing a message on  Saturday 
morning as people are excited to attend!
 
Most of you know that James has always inspired me to search the  Scriptures. 
 His earliest version of Abrahamic Faith was the seed that grew  into Roots 
of Faith and so I love it when he has time to write.
 
Shalom and the Sabbath approaches!  Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 23 17:19:14 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:19:14 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
Message-ID: <112320072319.14792.47475FF20005EF7B000039C822230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

I have always considered 'Babylon' to represent the pinnacle (no pun intended) of man's achievement outside of God's will. It is a three-headed monster - economic, political and religious. It represents man's way.
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 23 19:24:57 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:24:57 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
In-Reply-To: <d61.16b023d5.34789424@aol.com>
References: <d61.16b023d5.34789424@aol.com>
Message-ID: <15AE9510-60E8-40FA-ABD9-0B908D4B501A@earthlink.net>

Ross, yes, I agree. The thought of Daniel reading these very words of  
Jeremiah, and then receiving further his mysterious "numbers" is  
really quite amazing. I have worked on some of those numbers for many  
years now and here and there I think there has emerged a bit of  
clarity. The overall lesson though is clear--the period of 70 "years"  
involves a much longer 490 years, plus the 2300 "days" and the  
1335/1290/1260. They all seem to have some correspondence to ancient  
times, but also to look forward way beyond themselves. As you know,  
Sir Isaac Newton spent his life on these things and found more  
interest here than in his work in the areas of mathematics and physics.

I look forward to hearing what you have in the morning.

In the meantime I continue to concentrate on the "other" cycle of  
Torah readings and finding, as ever, much of meaning in their  
correspondence to various themes and ideas. Tomorrow's reading,  
VaYishlach (Gen 32:4-36:43) is pivotal for some of these very things  
we are discussing, with the separation of "Esau" the "red hairy" one,  
aka Edom, and the Haftarah readings of Hosea 11:7-12:12 & Obadiah. As  
you know the Rabbis came to refer to "Rome" as Edom, and as with Babel/ 
Babylon, it took on a wider meaning. These separations of the "seed"  
of Abraham has been on my mind of late and I put something on this up  
on the UIWU Blog (unitedisrael.org/blog). Even within the tribes  
themselves there seems to be a milder form of this "good seed" "bad  
seed" motif working, with Reuben losing the birthright to Joseph, and  
Levi and Shimon being under their father's curse, then Judah  
eventually to lose the septre...All most interesting, as laid out in  
Gen 49 by Jacob and then Deut 33 by Moshe Rabbenu.

Shabbat Shalom,

James


On Nov 23, 2007, at 3:37 PM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote:

> Thanks James for this!  I am absolutely focused on these things for  
> the class tomorrow.  You mention the use of Sheshach in chapter 25  
> of Jeremiah.  This is one of the things that I have been studying  
> today.  It is often overlooked that this is the very material that  
> Daniel was studying when he recorded the words that are presently  
> preserved in the 9th chapter of the work attributed to him.
>
> I can't wait until the class tomorrow! I hesitate to say much more  
> as this is all swirling around in my mind as I type this note.
>
> There is one more Atbash in these passages and it is found in  
> Jeremiah 51:1.  There we read the word "leb-qamai" which when  
> interpreted using this Atbash method yields, Chasdim - Chaldea -  
> Babylonians!
>
> Indeed this is the stuff I love!  I have always found it quite  
> interesting to study the words that inspired other prophets, such as  
> here in Daniel 9 to find that he was studying the words of Jeremiah  
> 25.  That we can study these very words in our day is a remarkable  
> testimony to those who preserved these texts for us down to this day.
>
> Many are shopping today, but I am searching for understanding among  
> the words written long ago by these men who were driven by the  
> Spirit of God.
>
> I am feeling inspired today and I hope to convey that in tomorrow's  
> class. We are certainly living in exciting times when the Spirit is  
> beginning to call out to myriads, "Come out of her my people!"
>
> May we all listen to that call and begin our trek home to Zion!
>
> an Early Shabbat Shalom, Ross
>
> Ross K. Nichols
> www.RootsofFaith.org
>
>
>
>
> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top  
> money wasters of 2007.
> _______________________________________________

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 23 20:02:24 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:02:24 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
In-Reply-To: <112320072122.26671.4747447F0003BD9A0000682F22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <112320072122.26671.4747447F0003BD9A0000682F22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W122546C42A1E28124E15ABA7B0@phx.gbl>


I always thought that Zerubbabel's name meant "seed of Babel," but was told by Tom Turner (who makes the Ezekiel Sticks!) to look more closely at his name.  He said that it was a combination of "zerub" (to be made to flow, to be heated), and "babel."  His contention is that it carries the meaning of "coming out (to be made to flow out) of Babel."
 
Ross or James, what do you see?  Is that a possibility?  I would love to think that his name actually means to COME OUT OF BABYLON!
 
Pat


From: chattertonw at bellsouth.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] Babylon/SheshachDate: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:22:07 +0000

so... what of Zerubbabel? Whose name means decendent of Babylon... (ref. Haggai 2:23)
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 23 20:14:13 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 02:14:13 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
Message-ID: <112420070214.29742.474788F5000389AD0000742E22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

2215. zarab, zaw-rab'; a prim. root; to flow away:--wax warm.

894. Babel, baw-bel'; from H1101; confusion; Babel (i.e. Babylon), including Babylonia and the Bab. empire:--Babel, Babylon.

1101. balal, baw-lal'; a prim. root; to overflow (spec. with oil); by impl. to mix; also (denom. from H1098) to fodder:--anoint, confound, X fade, mingle, mix (self), give provender, temper.

1098. beliyl, bel-eel'; from H1101; mixed, i.e. (spec.) feed (for cattle):--corn, fodder, provender.
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 23 20:16:25 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 02:16:25 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
Message-ID: <112420070216.4171.47478979000C51900000104B22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

>From the account of his life and actions, that could easily follow.  He seems to have come out of Babylon to serve the One true G-d with all his heart. This based on a quick reading of the associated hits on his name.
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 23 20:31:30 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:31:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
In-Reply-To: <112420070216.4171.47478979000C51900000104B22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <112420070216.4171.47478979000C51900000104B22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W24479B705F8332DC6A4AD4BA7B0@phx.gbl>


Yeah!!!  I really do hope that is the meaning of his name!  Because you're so right...........that seems to really fit his character!    The only problem I see is that when you look at his name in Hebrew, it is spelled zeru/babel.  There isn't the extra "b" in Hebrew that there is in English, so it just looks like zeru (seed) then babel.  But maybe Tommy is right in his assumption.  Maybe in Hebrew, you drop one of the "b's" when combining the two words?


From: chattertonw at bellsouth.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] Babylon/SheshachDate: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 02:16:25 +0000

>From the account of his life and actions, that could easily follow.  He seems to have come out of Babylon to serve the One true G-d with all his heart. This based on a quick reading of the associated hits on his name.
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 23 20:37:14 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 02:37:14 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
Message-ID: <112420070237.23338.47478E5A000545A800005B2A22216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

That would be a question for Ross. I am no Hebrew scholar. I am only just learning to read it.
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 23 20:38:37 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:38:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Babylon/Sheshach
In-Reply-To: <112420070237.23338.47478E5A000545A800005B2A22216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <112420070237.23338.47478E5A000545A800005B2A22216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W40DD55CEF5F878A82CD602BA7B0@phx.gbl>


Same here!


From: chattertonw at bellsouth.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] Babylon/SheshachDate: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 02:37:14 +0000

That would be a question for Ross. I am no Hebrew scholar. I am only just learning to read it.
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 24 14:46:48 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:46:48 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] 60 Years to the Day
Message-ID: <090FB603-4A20-4B7E-90EF-D3A788105EC9@earthlink.net>

Annapolis - 60 years to the day after Partition
Annapolis - 60 years to the day after Partition - By Stan Goodenough - www.jnewswire.com

On Jewish calendar date 17 Kislev 5708 (the evening of November 29,  
1947 in Israel), 46 countries voted on United Nations General Assembly  
Resolution 181 - the proposal to partition the Land of Israel (known  
then as Palestine) into two states, one Jewish, the other Arab.

Thirty-three voted in favor, 13 voted against. The Arabs rejected the  
outcome, immediately initiating hostilities that erupted into the War  
of Independence after Israel was established and recognized  
internationally six months later.

Next week, on 17 Kislev 5768, 60 years to the day after that UN vote,  
nearly 50 nations have been invited to Annapolis for the US-hosted  
International Conference on the Creation of Palestine - an Arab state  
the international community wants to see erected on the biblical  
heartland of the Jewish people.

Of these nations, only 15 are Arab states. Included among the rest are  
France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the United Kingdom,  
Canada, Poland, Sweden, Norway, South Africa and India.

Observers have noted that this will indeed be a gathering of the  
nations of the world in a united stand against the rights of the Jews  
to their sacred soil.

The international community is virtually single-minded on this issue:  
the theft of Jewish lands for the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Not a single invited national representative nor journalist is  
expected to challenge this position at Annapolis on Tuesday.
  
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 24 15:09:02 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 16:09:02 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
Message-ID: <CEE731A9-CB4C-41C4-8DB6-FA3C0E4C1E12@earthlink.net>

I know many of you have been following the plans of our U.S.  
government to host this massive upcoming International Conference for  
the Establishment of a Palestinian State in Annapolis, MD next week,  
hosted by our Secretary of State and our President. I had not noticed  
until Gary Arvidson forwarded me the story just now, that the date of  
this upcoming meeting, which will draw over 50 nations together, falls  
on the Hebrew calendar 60 years to the day of the partition of  
Palestine in 1947. I have written often of how our own David Horowitz,  
founder of UIWU, was present at that historic first UN meeting, and  
was able to lobby three influential votes from Central American  
countries that put Israel over the edge, but I had always concentrated  
on the date, November 29th, not Kislev 17, its Hebrew equivalent. That  
same date, by the way, was the date that Prof. Eliezar Sukenick, of  
Hebrew University, first identified the Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea  
Caves, as authentically from the 2nd century BCE.

Next Tuesday, the day the Conference begins, falls on Kislev 17. I  
can't help thinking that this Kislev 24 (Dec 4th), a day that lives in  
infamy in Jewish History and in the Prophet words of Haggai, might  
well play a part in something quite significant this year. It is clear  
that we are not living in normal times.

The Prophets are clear about all the nations gathering against  
Jerusalem in the last days. Perhaps gathering is not merely military  
invasion, though that could come, but even gatherings such as this  
kind of summit, in which the world with one voice speaks for the  
partition of Israel into the "two State" solution. The irony is that  
long ago, with the Balfour Declaration, a "two State" solution was  
proposed and nearly implemented.  It is called Israel and Jordan, and  
it dived things along the West and East Bank of the Jordan River. I  
think we are going to see the anti-Israeli rhetoric come out of the  
woodwork in this Conference. We will have to wait and see. I still  
have hope, however, that the U.S. will stand its ground in behalf of  
Israel depending on how things go. In the time of Truman the State  
department and many in our government strongly opposed Truman's  
recognition of Israel in 1947. They were actually flabbergasted and  
enraged. But he did it anyway. Maybe GWB, in his last days in office,  
will find some resources deep within his biblical experiences to  
remember and know that YHVH blesses those who bless Israel, who after  
2000 years of Exile, including the Holocaust, deserve at least the  
tiny West Bank of the ancient land of Palestine.

Is it any accident that the Torah reading today is VaYishlach, dealing  
with Jacob separating from the "Arab" populations of Esau, who were to  
live on the East side of the Jordan, not the West. And Obadiah is the  
Haftarah reading...

Shabbat Shalom,

James


From bkgivin at charter.net  Sat Nov 24 15:55:04 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:55:04 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: 60 Years to the Day & Earthquakes...pending doom???
In-Reply-To: <DDCCC88E-69F3-46DB-B7EF-06D963D7DA38@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00b601c82ee4$abe23910$653c66c9@bettygivin>

This is indeed sobering.  This website is well worth checking out. Perhaps
the recent earthquakes around the Temple Mount are indeed a warning sign.  I
was not aware until I read the articles(s) referring to the coming
conference in Annapolis and the earthquakes this past week,  that if this
were so, it would not be the first time that an earthquake signified that
something disastrous was about to happen.  I have taken the liberty of
quoting from "The Jerusalem Watchman" from the website link below.

 

 "Interestingly, some seem to be "tied" to political earthquakes. I recall
one that shook our apartment in Jerusalem's Talbiyeh neighborhood on
November 22, 1996, the day Prime Minister Shimon Peres presented his
super-leftist government to the Knesset following the assassination of Prime
Minister Yitzhak Rabin.

And on February 11, 2004, a size 5 quake cracked the ceiling in the Knesset,
Israel's parliament building, shortly before lawmakers were scheduled to
take their seats for the day's debates. As reported by Jerusalem Newswire at
the time, the question of forcefully removing the Jews from the Gaza Strip
was then on the top of the Knesset's agenda.

This week we have had three reported quakes and felt two. It is the week
leading up to the Annapolis Conference on the Creation of a Palestinian
State on Jewish Land.

Of course, no-one would be foolish enough to say there was REALLY any tie in
between the quakes and the conference.

Would they?"

Interesting to say the least.  Any thoughts?  I keep thinking of the Haggai
passage that David Horowitz brought up so many times and that James has
continued to bring up; and just today, Ross mentioned that very same passage
(Hag 2:18-20ff),.and the promise regarding  24 Kislev."from this day
forward, I will bless you!"  24 Kislev is just seven days away from the
Kislev 17 meeting.  It is also interesting to note that this passage in its
full context is enclosed with white spaces, and that directly following it
are the promises to Zerrubabbel, also enclosed in white spaces.  I will
leave you to read it and ponder.

 

Much to think about regarding the cleansing of the people, bringing them out
of Babylon, a "shaking" of the heavens and the earth, overthrowing the
throne of kingdoms, etc.see verses 20-23.and all that is to occur before
That Day when the Promise comes to fruition.  

 

 In trying times like these, we have to hold on to the promise as we pray,
knowing that in its time, the Blessing will come as promised! 

 

Shabbat Shalom,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

  _____  

From: James Tabor [mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net] 
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 2:44 PM
To: ui at mcarr.us
Subject: 60 Years to the Day

 

Annapolis - 60 years to the day after Partition

  _____  

Annapolis - 60 years to the day after Partition - By Stan Goodenough -
<http://www.jnewswire.com/> www.jnewswire.com 

On Jewish calendar date 17 Kislev 5708 (the evening of November 29, 1947 in
Israel), 46 countries voted on United Nations General Assembly Resolution
181 - the proposal to partition the Land of Israel (known then as Palestine)
into two states, one Jewish, the other Arab.

Thirty-three voted in favor, 13 voted against. The Arabs rejected the
outcome, immediately initiating hostilities that erupted into the War of
Independence after Israel was established and recognized internationally six
months later.

Next week, on 17 Kislev 5768, 60 years to the day after that UN vote, nearly
50 nations have been invited to Annapolis for the US-hosted International
Conference on the Creation of Palestine - an Arab state the international
community wants to see erected on the biblical heartland of the Jewish
people.

Of these nations, only 15 are Arab states. Included among the rest are
France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the United Kingdom, Canada,
Poland, Sweden, Norway, South Africa and India.

Observers have noted that this will indeed be a gathering of the nations of
the world in a united stand against the rights of the Jews to their sacred
soil.

The international community is virtually single-minded on this issue: the
theft of Jewish lands for the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Not a single invited national representative nor journalist is expected to
challenge this position at Annapolis on Tuesday.

 

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sat Nov 24 18:01:44 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:01:44 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] 60 Years to the Day
Message-ID: <d36.1a1b0280.347a1568@aol.com>

Dear James and all,
 
I appreciate you forwarding this to the list. I too feel that we should pay  
special attention to dates, especially in these exciting times in which we 
live. 
 
After the class today when you called and informed me of this I thought of  a 
few things.
 
First, I am reminded of the words in Psalm 2. I would encourage all to read  
these words.  "How the nations rage and imagine a vain thing..." The  thought 
that these nations have aligned themselves against Israel - God's son is  
quite arrogant.  
 
I would also like to remind everyone on this list of something.  While  I 
have the utmost respect for the reading cycle followed according to the annual  
cycle and have been amazed at how many things seem to be in line with current  
events - something that I have learned from you James.....I am convinced that  
this most ancient triennial cycle has some uncanny correlations as I try and  
show every week with the actual dates on the Hebrew Calendar. The rabbis 
point  these things out in the Talmud and many obscure teachings from the Talmud 
begin  to make sense when one understands that they are making these statements 
based  upon these ancient arrangements of Torah and Prophetic texts.
 
The torah reading next week according to this cycle of readings is found in  
Genesis 12.  One only has to read the opening words to be reminded that  those 
who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse (or treat lightly) He  
will curse!
 
More on that later though. I have to edit the classes today and try and get  
them up on line.  I hope that everyone had a blessed Sabbath and pray that  we 
are all focused closely on world events - constantly looking at the world  
through the eyes of the Ancient prophets of Israel!
 
Shalom, Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Sat Nov 24 18:01:55 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:01:55 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
In-Reply-To: <CEE731A9-CB4C-41C4-8DB6-FA3C0E4C1E12@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00c401c82ef6$644846f0$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Just read this second post and found dates to be very interesting.  Of
course it brings up much to think about and question.  I remember in days
past sitting under the teaching of Joseph Good, when he would emphasize over
and over that in Hebraic thought, what happened before will happen
again...basically that history repeats itself...and beyond that, even more
fascinating is that certain selected events often pattern themselves after
one another and occur on the same date. May what happened 60 years ago
happen again in regards to Israel!

I have always been fascinated by this concept and find it to be very
thought-provoking when it comes to this Kislev 17 date. Over 60 years ago,
on this date, it definitely looked as if basically all nations were against
Israel, yet almost at the last minute, the tide turned in Israel's favor
thru our own David Horowitz working behind the scenes following HaShem's
bidding.  It makes me wish we had a David Horowitz today to work behind the
scenes this Tuesday, Kislev 17, at the upcoming International Conference in
Annapolis, MD next week.

Hopefully, as you stated, James, our own president will step up to the plate
and back Israel. As an avid Bible believer, we know that he surely knows
G-d's promises to bless those who bless Israel; but we also know that
knowing a thing is much easier than following thru with what we will then do
about it.  Hopefully many Americans who love Israel will be supporting both
our Secretary of State and our President with our prayers, whether we
personally like them or adhere to their political viewpoints or not.

I also wonder if the establishment of the authenticity of the Isaiah portion
of the Dead Sea Scrolls might also have some reflection on our day.  If we
only briefly review Isaiah 40-66, it is definitely mind-altering, as it so
strongly deals with the Redemption Plan of G-d's people with a special
emphasis on the House of Israel, as they finally awake, hear the "clarion
call" to come out of Babylon and acknowledge the Oneness of the Holy One of
Israel. 

We do know from these passages as well as a multitude of others that as
HaShem has scattered his sheep, he will indeed gather them back. The Haggai
passage regarding 24 Kislev and G-d's promise to bless his people "from this
day forward,", as you mentioned James (and Ross in your message today)is
very specific.  It appears to be significant that it is such close proximity
to this Annapolis Conference.  In fact it is a SEVEN DAY interval.  

This is getting long, I know, but to answer your rhetorical question, James,
I don't think it is a coincidence that our Torah reading is VayYishlah,(Gen
32:4-36)where we read of Jacob and his mightly wrestling the malach; and
also the separation between Jacob and Esau as brothers, one to the West of
the Jordan and one to the East of the Jordan.  The haftarah, Obadiah, is
certainly not mere coincidence, as it even speaks of "casting lots" for
Jerusalem, but it has a good ending.  May it be so!

Shavuah tov and Blessings,

Betty/Elisheva


 



-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 3:09 PM
To: ui at mcarr.us
Cc: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story

I know many of you have been following the plans of our U.S.  
government to host this massive upcoming International Conference for  
the Establishment of a Palestinian State in Annapolis, MD next week,  
hosted by our Secretary of State and our President. I had not noticed  
until Gary Arvidson forwarded me the story just now, that the date of  
this upcoming meeting, which will draw over 50 nations together, falls  
on the Hebrew calendar 60 years to the day of the partition of  
Palestine in 1947. I have written often of how our own David Horowitz,  
founder of UIWU, was present at that historic first UN meeting, and  
was able to lobby three influential votes from Central American  
countries that put Israel over the edge, but I had always concentrated  
on the date, November 29th, not Kislev 17, its Hebrew equivalent. That  
same date, by the way, was the date that Prof. Eliezar Sukenick, of  
Hebrew University, first identified the Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea  
Caves, as authentically from the 2nd century BCE.

Next Tuesday, the day the Conference begins, falls on Kislev 17. I  
can't help thinking that this Kislev 24 (Dec 4th), a day that lives in  
infamy in Jewish History and in the Prophet words of Haggai, might  
well play a part in something quite significant this year. It is clear  
that we are not living in normal times.

The Prophets are clear about all the nations gathering against  
Jerusalem in the last days. Perhaps gathering is not merely military  
invasion, though that could come, but even gatherings such as this  
kind of summit, in which the world with one voice speaks for the  
partition of Israel into the "two State" solution. The irony is that  
long ago, with the Balfour Declaration, a "two State" solution was  
proposed and nearly implemented.  It is called Israel and Jordan, and  
it dived things along the West and East Bank of the Jordan River. I  
think we are going to see the anti-Israeli rhetoric come out of the  
woodwork in this Conference. We will have to wait and see. I still  
have hope, however, that the U.S. will stand its ground in behalf of  
Israel depending on how things go. In the time of Truman the State  
department and many in our government strongly opposed Truman's  
recognition of Israel in 1947. They were actually flabbergasted and  
enraged. But he did it anyway. Maybe GWB, in his last days in office,  
will find some resources deep within his biblical experiences to  
remember and know that YHVH blesses those who bless Israel, who after  
2000 years of Exile, including the Holocaust, deserve at least the  
tiny West Bank of the ancient land of Palestine.

Is it any accident that the Torah reading today is VaYishlach, dealing  
with Jacob separating from the "Arab" populations of Esau, who were to  
live on the East side of the Jordan, not the West. And Obadiah is the  
Haftarah reading...

Shabbat Shalom,

James
_______________________________________________




From dennyj at mac.com  Sat Nov 24 19:46:42 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:46:42 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls
In-Reply-To: <005a01c82c98$7a211a20$653c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <005a01c82c98$7a211a20$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <4480CE20-6997-401F-803D-122772FBDFE0@mac.com>

Hi Betty,

Thanks for the warm welcome and how interesting that our paths come  
from the same roots. We are back now from our family Thanksgiving. We  
had a wonderful time with them all. There were 104 at the Thanksgiving  
dinner which was held in the Church of Christ building right next door  
to Mary Joyce's mother. Like your family there are preachers,  
teachers, missionaries, elders and worship leaders all throughout the  
family and the typical conversation was about how the various churches  
are doing. Any growth, etc/. etc. Lots of fun talk, too, about the  
families and lots of grandkids there. Such good people.

Mady is doing great. But when we got home an email had just come in  
from our daughter up in Duluth. They were supposed to go with us this  
weekend but her girls had chicken pox so they had to stay home. Well,  
they emailed us to tell us that her husband's father was found dead in  
his basement today. Steve had just talked to him on Thursday and  
everything was fine. This morning, Steve's mom found her husband at  
the foot of the basement stairs in a pool of blood. He had been dead  
for awhile and was quite blue. They are doing an autopsy to see what  
happened. We know Ken and his wife Barb. Ken is may age, 55. Much too  
young. I just got off the phone with Steve to see how he and his  
family are doing. Steve is still kind of in shock. He requested that  
we pray for his mother, Barb. They just lost Ken's father 2 months  
ago. Now Barb and another family member are driving up to  break the  
hard news to her that she has now lost her son, too. So,....I know  
this is right on the heels of our last major concern for Mady, but  
please pray for Barb, our daughter Julie, and husband Steve and the  
family. This has been a very strange year for our circle of friends.  
Even in our sabbath fellowship circle we have lost 2 parents in the  
last 2 months. We have no guarantees in this life other than our  
Father will be with us in it all. Bless His Name!

Thanks in advance. Now, I will start reading all the other postings to  
this dialogue list and try to keep on track with the subject(s) being  
discussed.

Shalom,
Denny


On Nov 21, 2007, at 5:44 PM, Betty Givin wrote:

> Dennis,
>
> Having known Ross, Joe and Brian for nearly two decades, I can vouch  
> for their integrity.  It was thru Joe and Hatikvah Ministries in the  
> late 1980?s that my husband, Roger, and I met Brian and Ross and  
> where we began searching for the ?roots of our faith,? which led us  
> back to the Ancient Paths and a love for G-d, Torah and Israel.  We  
> will be forever indebted to Joe and his ministry and to people like  
> Brian and Ross and many more friends that we have met along the way  
> and grown to love as family.  It is so good to see this new ?surge?  
> coming out of Louisiana, and such a blessing that we have the  
> internet fellowship. It is so good to have you and Mary Joyce with  
> us all and to see that your support is so solidly based.
>
> In an earlier email, when I told you that Roger and I had spent a  
> lot of time in Minnesota the past few years, you said you were from  
> Fridley, and were living in the house that had belonged to your  
> parents and that you were block captain of your street.  We are very  
> familiar with Fridley as we worked claims up there.  It must be so  
> nice to have deep roots like that.  Growing up as an Air Force  
> ?brat,? we moved every few years.  I actually went to 4 different  
> high schools.  My traveling didn?t come to an end as my first  
> husband was a Church of Christ preacher.  My second and present  
> husband, Roger, was an insurance catastrophe adjuster, so my travels  
> continued up until this year.  I have had to place my roots in  
> HaShem and in my faith, and for that I am so immensely grateful.
>
>  I will certainly be praying for the two of you and your family this  
> Thanksgiving holiday.  My brother, James, and I were brought up in  
> the Church of Christ, we can certainly relate.  Practically all the  
> members of Dad?s family were either preachers, teachers, elders,  
> deacons, song leaders; and like your wife?s family, great people. I  
> just don?t think they have ever been in a place to have seriously  
> questioned their faith; and as you well know, once the questioning  
> starts, and you find a multitude of gaps, there is really no going  
> back.  Hopefully you will be able to enjoy Thanksgiving together as  
> family and enjoy the love that binds you together.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving and Shalom,
>
> Betty/Elisheva
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Nichols, Ross K.
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:42 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls
>
>
> Subject: Fwd: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls
>
> Ross and growing gang,
>
> As I type this email, I am listening to Ross and Joe's video  
> conversation. Isn't technology amazing? The ability to time-shift  
> and be able to, from long distances, be able to participate in  
> things like this. But it all takes work and money. I just want to  
> again, thank Ross, Joe, Brian, and the Roots of Faith congregation  
> for making this all possible. It is going to be exciting to watch  
> this grow. Now I can honestly say to questioning friends that we  
> have a fellowship. How convenient in these days of high gas prices  
> that we can sit in the comfort of our homes and participate in such  
> a cool fellowship. I would make this suggestion. That we all take  
> what we would normally spend in gas to drive to an assembly and  
> dedicate it to this ministry to help Roots of Faith defray the costs  
> of equipment, software, phone lines, internet costs, etc. to help  
> this ministry to remain and grow. I have had some conversations with  
> Ross about these things and I am convinced that he is a man of great  
> integrity and he speaks so highly of Joe and of Brian (who has  
> dedicated his life to serving in many capacities that make this  
> possible). These guys can be trusted, of that I am convinced. I  
> believe the time has come for me to stand with them and their  
> Biblical vision. My wife and I have decided that we will be making  
> regular investments in this ministry.
>
> May Hashem bless His word as it goes forth!
>
> We will be traveling to Mary Joyce's family Thanksgiving this  
> afternoon to southern Iowa. While there we will have no internet  
> connection so we will miss any conversation and the service on  
> Saturday. Our youngest son and his family will be traveling with us,  
> however, and we will have some great conversations. Justin attends  
> Beth Immanuel in Hudson, WI where he lives. Beth Immanuel is where  
> D. Thomas Lancaster teaches. As we go to this Thanksgiving gathering  
> of over 100 relatives who are in the Church of Christ, we as non  
> trinitarians may be challenged this weekend. Pray for us, that we  
> would be gracious and wise in our responses. Hopefully, no one will  
> make anything of it and we can just enjoy the fellowship. They are  
> all good people and we love them. They, in their own way, desire  
> restoration. They just haven't gone far enough.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving to you all. May your time with family be rich  
> with memories.
>
> Shalom,
> Denny and Mary Joyce
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2007, at 11:40 PM, Roots of Faith wrote:
>
> Shalom from the synagogue without walls.  I am sitting in the  
> synagogue typing this note and thinking about all that is going on.  
> I am in awe at how things are progressing. It tells me that people  
> are searching for a better understanding of the Bible, and that they  
> want to share their thoughts with others. To that end, we have set  
> up some things to enable the sharing of ideas.
>
> We now have a "discussion list". I described this in my last note,  
> so if you are new to this distribution you can go to my web site and  
> see if it interests you.  (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/About_Dialogue.htm 
> )
>
> I also recently made some changes to my splash page at www.rootsoffaith.org 
> . I made some quick links to some of the more popular places on my  
> web site including the Blog where all of our weekly services are  
> published as podcasts, the Dialogue list, and the Listen Live link.   
> I think this will make it easier to get where you want to go.
>
> The class from this past Sabbath has been found! I thought that I  
> had lost it, but tonight I discovered it hidden away as a result of  
> a filing mistake on my part.  It has been edited and is up now for  
> your listening pleasure...or at least for your listening (the  
> pleasure part is more a matter of taste).
>
> I also posted another song from the HacVShema album.  This one is  
> Glenn Chatterton's, Offering of Love.  These guys are becoming quite  
> popular.  I hope they stay with me.  I am kinda getting to like  
> them.  I pray that they at least remember me when they make it big:)
>
> I spent this past Sunday with Joseph Good of Hatikva Ministries. I  
> drove to his place and filmed 4 weeks of shows on the Lost Tribes of  
> Israel. This was quite an experience for me. First because I can say  
> that it was his ministry that brought me to an awareness of the  
> Hebraic Roots of Christianity now nearly 2 decades ago. I consider  
> him to be one of the pioneers of this movement and so it was an  
> honor to work with him. Even though I had never done video  
> production, he made me feel very relaxed and I think that it went  
> well. You be the judge as the first of this 4 week series will be  
> available for viewing on Wednesday, November 21st. I encourage you  
> to send me some feedback.  Please be kind as this was new for me.  I  
> may have had that deer in the headlights look at the beginning. He  
> and his wife Debbie are great friends and I appreciate them.  Go to  
> the Universal Torah Network on Wednesday to view the show.
>
> Be sure and catch the service live this coming Sabbath.  Go to my  
> site and click on the listen live link to join us.
>
> Thanks for your prayers, good wishes and support.
>
> Love and shalom, Ross
> Click here to unsubscribe
>
> _______________________________________________

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 24 20:31:44 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:31:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
In-Reply-To: <00c401c82ef6$644846f0$653c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <CEE731A9-CB4C-41C4-8DB6-FA3C0E4C1E12@earthlink.net>
	<00c401c82ef6$644846f0$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W13BEF438D0A186221D645DBA740@phx.gbl>


Yes, Betty, may it happen again that Israel prevails against all odds on this Kislev 17th.  We no longer have David, but his work lives on in all of us.  The fishermen are throwing their nets.  The tribes are gathering on the Ancient Path (as James calls it).  Our eyes are focused on going home.  We are coming out of Babylon.  
 
I so hope that our President will stand up for Israel.  But even if he doesn't, and the insideous plan is instigated, our G-d will have the last word.  We know from Isaiah 49:14-21 that Jerusalem's walls are continually before Him, that her destroyers will go away, and that His children will gather themselves together and come.  And  we know that His children will find the place too narrow for them and will say, "The place is too narrow for me:  make room for me that I may dwell."
 
Whether the nations decide they'll take G-d's land or not, His Plan and His Purpose will come about.  I'm so thankful for our fishermen - for James and Ross and Joe Good and Yair Davidi and Steve Mathe and so many more that are out there throwing their nets.  Let us all pray for and support these men of G-d.
 
What an incredible time to be alive!  How blessed we are to see the prophetic word unfold before our very eyes!   I have felt overwhelmed by the wonderful teaching and the emails of this day.
 
My love to you, Betty, and to all our fellow travelers on this Ancient Path,
 
Pat/Abigail  
> From: bkgivin at charter.net> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; ui at mcarr.us> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:01:55 -0600> CC: > > Just read this second post and found dates to be very interesting. Of> course it brings up much to think about and question. I remember in days> past sitting under the teaching of Joseph Good, when he would emphasize over> and over that in Hebraic thought, what happened before will happen> again...basically that history repeats itself...and beyond that, even more> fascinating is that certain selected events often pattern themselves after> one another and occur on the same date. May what happened 60 years ago> happen again in regards to Israel!> > I have always been fascinated by this concept and find it to be very> thought-provoking when it comes to this Kislev 17 date. Over 60 years ago,> on this date, it definitely looked as if basically all nations were against> Israel, yet almost at the last minute, the tide turned in Israel's favor> thru our own David Horowitz working behind the scenes following HaShem's> bidding. It makes me wish we had a David Horowitz today to work behind the> scenes this Tuesday, Kislev 17, at the upcoming International Conference in> Annapolis, MD next week.> > Hopefully, as you stated, James, our own president will step up to the plate> and back Israel. As an avid Bible believer, we know that he surely knows> G-d's promises to bless those who bless Israel; but we also know that> knowing a thing is much easier than following thru with what we will then do> about it. Hopefully many Americans who love Israel will be supporting both> our Secretary of State and our President with our prayers, whether we> personally like them or adhere to their political viewpoints or not.> > I also wonder if the establishment of the authenticity of the Isaiah portion> of the Dead Sea Scrolls might also have some reflection on our day. If we> only briefly review Isaiah 40-66, it is definitely mind-altering, as it so> strongly deals with the Redemption Plan of G-d's people with a special> emphasis on the House of Israel, as they finally awake, hear the "clarion> call" to come out of Babylon and acknowledge the Oneness of the Holy One of> Israel. > > We do know from these passages as well as a multitude of others that as> HaShem has scattered his sheep, he will indeed gather them back. The Haggai> passage regarding 24 Kislev and G-d's promise to bless his people "from this> day forward,", as you mentioned James (and Ross in your message today)is> very specific. It appears to be significant that it is such close proximity> to this Annapolis Conference. In fact it is a SEVEN DAY interval. > > This is getting long, I know, but to answer your rhetorical question, James,> I don't think it is a coincidence that our Torah reading is VayYishlah,(Gen> 32:4-36)where we read of Jacob and his mightly wrestling the malach; and> also the separation between Jacob and Esau as brothers, one to the West of> the Jordan and one to the East of the Jordan. The haftarah, Obadiah, is> certainly not mere coincidence, as it even speaks of "casting lots" for> Jerusalem, but it has a good ending. May it be so!> > Shavuah tov and Blessings,> > Betty/Elisheva> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 3:09 PM> To: ui at mcarr.us> Cc: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story> > I know many of you have been following the plans of our U.S. > government to host this massive upcoming International Conference for > the Establishment of a Palestinian State in Annapolis, MD next week, > hosted by our Secretary of State and our President. I had not noticed > until Gary Arvidson forwarded me the story just now, that the date of > this upcoming meeting, which will draw over 50 nations together, falls > on the Hebrew calendar 60 years to the day of the partition of > Palestine in 1947. I have written often of how our own David Horowitz, > founder of UIWU, was present at that historic first UN meeting, and > was able to lobby three influential votes from Central American > countries that put Israel over the edge, but I had always concentrated > on the date, November 29th, not Kislev 17, its Hebrew equivalent. That > same date, by the way, was the date that Prof. Eliezar Sukenick, of > Hebrew University, first identified the Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea > Caves, as authentically from the 2nd century BCE.> > Next Tuesday, the day the Conference begins, falls on Kislev 17. I > can't help thinking that this Kislev 24 (Dec 4th), a day that lives in > infamy in Jewish History and in the Prophet words of Haggai, might > well play a part in something quite significant this year. It is clear > that we are not living in normal times.> > The Prophets are clear about all the nations gathering against > Jerusalem in the last days. Perhaps gathering is not merely military > invasion, though that could come, but even gatherings such as this > kind of summit, in which the world with one voice speaks for the > partition of Israel into the "two State" solution. The irony is that > long ago, with the Balfour Declaration, a "two State" solution was > proposed and nearly implemented. It is called Israel and Jordan, and > it dived things along the West and East Bank of the Jordan River. I > think we are going to see the anti-Israeli rhetoric come out of the > woodwork in this Conference. We will have to wait and see. I still > have hope, however, that the U.S. will stand its ground in behalf of > Israel depending on how things go. In the time of Truman the State > department and many in our government strongly opposed Truman's > recognition of Israel in 1947. They were actually flabbergasted and > enraged. But he did it anyway. Maybe GWB, in his last days in office, > will find some resources deep within his biblical experiences to > remember and know that YHVH blesses those who bless Israel, who after > 2000 years of Exile, including the Holocaust, deserve at least the > tiny West Bank of the ancient land of Palestine.> > Is it any accident that the Torah reading today is VaYishlach, dealing > with Jacob separating from the "Arab" populations of Esau, who were to > live on the East side of the Jordan, not the West. And Obadiah is the > Haftarah reading...> > Shabbat Shalom,> > James> _______________________________________________> > > _______________________________________________
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Sat Nov 24 20:39:04 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:39:04 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Denny, Praying for your losses
In-Reply-To: <4480CE20-6997-401F-803D-122772FBDFE0@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00df01c82f0c$5823e6c0$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Denny, I am so glad that you were able to have such a wonderful Thanksgiving
with your family and so very thankful that you precious little Mady is doing
good; but so very very sorry to hear of the death of your father-in-law,
Ken-55 is much, much too young!  I only wish that I had special words of
comfort for you and for your wife's family to send across the miles, but
words seem so empty.

 

 Having recently lost my own mother, I do know the pain and inexpressible
heart rending emotion and indescribable grief that comes with the death of
someone we love so dearly. But Ken's mother---first her husband, then her
son---I cannot even imagine that pain! I know that people live thru these
horrible tragedies, how I do not know, except thru the love and compassion
of the Eternal Father who, as you acknowledged, is always with us.  I know
that He gives us beautiful and compassionate friends to just be there. May
all of you be surrounded by them!

 

One verse that probably helped me more than any other was one that my dear
friend, Patricia Robbins sent me.  It has been a bit mistranslated in some
versions, but I think this translation is correct.

 

Heavy in the eyes of YHVH is the death of His Chasids (one who is kind, 

pious, godly, good, merciful, the same word that "chasidic" comes from).


      Psalm 116:15

 

This spoke so deeply to my heart because it made me realize that our G-d
does not take our deaths lightly---it is heavy, weighty for Him as it is for
us-He cares!  May He wrap all of you, especially Barb, Julie, Steve and all
his family, under the Shadow of His Wings as He provides comfort and healing
and sustaining encouragement to rise up and in time, go on.

 

May G-d bless you and keep you, shine His Face upon you and be gracious to
you and give you Shalom!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 7:47 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FW: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls

 

Hi Betty,

 

Thanks for the warm welcome and how interesting that our paths come from the
same roots. We are back now from our family Thanksgiving. We had a wonderful
time with them all. There were 104 at the Thanksgiving dinner which was held
in the Church of Christ building right next door to Mary Joyce's mother.
Like your family there are preachers, teachers, missionaries, elders and
worship leaders all throughout the family and the typical conversation was
about how the various churches are doing. Any growth, etc/. etc. Lots of fun
talk, too, about the families and lots of grandkids there. Such good people.

 

Mady is doing great. But when we got home an email had just come in from our
daughter up in Duluth. They were supposed to go with us this weekend but her
girls had chicken pox so they had to stay home. Well, they emailed us to
tell us that her husband's father was found dead in his basement today.
Steve had just talked to him on Thursday and everything was fine. This
morning, Steve's mom found her husband at the foot of the basement stairs in
a pool of blood. He had been dead for awhile and was quite blue. They are
doing an autopsy to see what happened. We know Ken and his wife Barb. Ken is
may age, 55. Much too young. I just got off the phone with Steve to see how
he and his family are doing. Steve is still kind of in shock. He requested
that we pray for his mother, Barb. They just lost Ken's father 2 months ago.
Now Barb and another family member are driving up to  break the hard news to
her that she has now lost her son, too. So,....I know this is right on the
heels of our last major concern for Mady, but please pray for Barb, our
daughter Julie, and husband Steve and the family. This has been a very
strange year for our circle of friends. Even in our sabbath fellowship
circle we have lost 2 parents in the last 2 months. We have no guarantees in
this life other than our Father will be with us in it all. Bless His Name!

 

Thanks in advance. Now, I will start reading all the other postings to this
dialogue list and try to keep on track with the subject(s) being discussed.

 

Shalom,

Denny

 

 

On Nov 21, 2007, at 5:44 PM, Betty Givin wrote:





Dennis,

 

Having known Ross, Joe and Brian for nearly two decades, I can vouch for
their integrity.  It was thru Joe and Hatikvah Ministries in the late 1980's
that my husband, Roger, and I met Brian and Ross and where we began
searching for the "roots of our faith," which led us back to the Ancient
Paths and a love for G-d, Torah and Israel.  We will be forever indebted to
Joe and his ministry and to people like Brian and Ross and many more friends
that we have met along the way and grown to love as family.  It is so good
to see this new "surge" coming out of Louisiana, and such a blessing that we
have the internet fellowship. It is so good to have you and Mary Joyce with
us all and to see that your support is so solidly based.

 

In an earlier email, when I told you that Roger and I had spent a lot of
time in Minnesota the past few years, you said you were from Fridley, and
were living in the house that had belonged to your parents and that you were
block captain of your street.  We are very familiar with Fridley as we
worked claims up there.  It must be so nice to have deep roots like that.
Growing up as an Air Force "brat," we moved every few years.  I actually
went to 4 different high schools.  My traveling didn't come to an end as my
first husband was a Church of Christ preacher.  My second and present
husband, Roger, was an insurance catastrophe adjuster, so my travels
continued up until this year.  I have had to place my roots in HaShem and in
my faith, and for that I am so immensely grateful.

 

 I will certainly be praying for the two of you and your family this
Thanksgiving holiday.  My brother, James, and I were brought up in the
Church of Christ, we can certainly relate.  Practically all the members of
Dad's family were either preachers, teachers, elders, deacons, song leaders;
and like your wife's family, great people. I just don't think they have ever
been in a place to have seriously questioned their faith; and as you well
know, once the questioning starts, and you find a multitude of gaps, there
is really no going back.  Hopefully you will be able to enjoy Thanksgiving
together as family and enjoy the love that binds you together.

 

Happy Thanksgiving and Shalom,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Nichols, Ross K.
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:42 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls

 

 

Subject: Fwd: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls

 

Ross and growing gang,

 

As I type this email, I am listening to Ross and Joe's video conversation.
Isn't technology amazing? The ability to time-shift and be able to, from
long distances, be able to participate in things like this. But it all takes
work and money. I just want to again, thank Ross, Joe, Brian, and the Roots
of Faith congregation for making this all possible. It is going to be
exciting to watch this grow. Now I can honestly say to questioning friends
that we have a fellowship. How convenient in these days of high gas prices
that we can sit in the comfort of our homes and participate in such a cool
fellowship. I would make this suggestion. That we all take what we would
normally spend in gas to drive to an assembly and dedicate it to this
ministry to help Roots of Faith defray the costs of equipment, software,
phone lines, internet costs, etc. to help this ministry to remain and grow.
I have had some conversations with Ross about these things and I am
convinced that he is a man of great integrity and he speaks so highly of Joe
and of Brian (who has dedicated his life to serving in many capacities that
make this possible). These guys can be trusted, of that I am convinced. I
believe the time has come for me to stand with them and their Biblical
vision. My wife and I have decided that we will be making regular
investments in this ministry.

 

May Hashem bless His word as it goes forth!

 

We will be traveling to Mary Joyce's family Thanksgiving this afternoon to
southern Iowa. While there we will have no internet connection so we will
miss any conversation and the service on Saturday. Our youngest son and his
family will be traveling with us, however, and we will have some great
conversations. Justin attends Beth Immanuel in Hudson, WI where he lives.
Beth Immanuel is where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches. As we go to this
Thanksgiving gathering of over 100 relatives who are in the Church of
Christ, we as non trinitarians may be challenged this weekend. Pray for us,
that we would be gracious and wise in our responses. Hopefully, no one will
make anything of it and we can just enjoy the fellowship. They are all good
people and we love them. They, in their own way, desire restoration. They
just haven't gone far enough.

 

Happy Thanksgiving to you all. May your time with family be rich with
memories.

 

Shalom,

Denny and Mary Joyce

 

 

On Nov 20, 2007, at 11:40 PM, Roots of Faith wrote:

 

Shalom from the synagogue without walls.  I am sitting in the synagogue
typing this note and thinking about all that is going on. I am in awe at how
things are progressing. It tells me that people are searching for a better
understanding of the Bible, and that they want to share their thoughts with
others. To that end, we have set up some things to enable the sharing of
ideas.

We now have a "discussion list". I described this in my last note, so if you
are new to this distribution you can go to my web site and see if it
interests you.  (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/About_Dialogue.htm) 

I also recently made some changes to my splash page at www.rootsoffaith.org.
I made some quick links to some of the more popular places on my web site
including the Blog where all of our weekly services are published as
podcasts, the Dialogue list, and the Listen Live link.  I think this will
make it easier to get where you want to go.

The class from this past Sabbath has been found! I thought that I had lost
it, but tonight I discovered it hidden away as a result of a filing mistake
on my part.  It has been edited and is up now for your listening
pleasure...or at least for your listening (the pleasure part is more a
matter of taste).

I also posted another song from the HacVShema album.  This one is Glenn
Chatterton's, Offering of Love.  These guys are becoming quite popular.  I
hope they stay with me.  I am kinda getting to like them.  I pray that they
at least remember me when they make it big:) 

I spent this past Sunday with Joseph Good of Hatikva Ministries
<http://www.hatikva.org> . I drove to his place and filmed 4 weeks of shows
on the Lost Tribes of Israel. This was quite an experience for me. First
because I can say that it was his ministry that brought me to an awareness
of the Hebraic Roots of Christianity now nearly 2 decades ago. I consider
him to be one of the pioneers of this movement and so it was an honor to
work with him. Even though I had never done video production, he made me
feel very relaxed and I think that it went well. You be the judge as the
first of this 4 week series will be available for viewing on Wednesday,
November 21st. I encourage you to send me some feedback.  Please be kind as
this was new for me.  I may have had that deer in the headlights look at the
beginning. He and his wife Debbie are great friends and I appreciate them.
Go to the Universal <http://universaltorah.com/programming/category/hatikva>
Torah Network on Wednesday to view the show.

Be sure and catch the service live this coming Sabbath.  Go to my site
<http://www.rootsoffaith.org>  and click on the listen live link to join us.

Thanks for your prayers, good wishes and support.

Love and shalom, Ross
Click
<http://www.imsclients.com/listmail/unsubscribe.php?M=24389&N=115&L=11&C=056
d00eebc0238ac418dfbc92ea0b943>  here to unsubscribe

 

_______________________________________________



 

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Nov 24 21:12:43 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 03:12:43 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
In-Reply-To: <BAY115-W13BEF438D0A186221D645DBA740@phx.gbl>
References: <CEE731A9-CB4C-41C4-8DB6-FA3C0E4C1E12@earthlink.net><00c401c82ef6$644846f0$653c66c9@bettygivin><BAY115-W13BEF438D0A186221D645DBA740@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1000483291-1195960390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1328995691-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Betty, Pat and James,

I was commenting to Ross and some of the other ROF folks how overwhelmed I was with all that we have been discussing and learning.

So much to learn, unlearn and re-learn.

We are fortunate that we serve a patient and compassionate God.

It became apparent to me today the it is His ways that matter not ours, ours only bring trouble. So learn His ways we must or perish.



Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: patricia robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>

Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:31:44 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>, mark carr <ui at mcarr.us>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story


Yes, Betty, may it happen again that Israel prevails against all odds on this Kislev 17th.? We no longer have David, but his work lives on in all of us.? The fishermen are throwing their nets.? The tribes are gathering on the Ancient Path (as James calls it).? Our eyes are focused?on going?home.? We are coming out of Babylon.? 
 ?
 I so hope that our President will stand up for Israel.? But even if he doesn't, and the insideous plan is instigated, our G-d will have the last word.? We know from Isaiah 49:14-21 that Jerusalem's walls are continually before Him, that her destroyers will go away,?and that His children will gather themselves together and come.? And? we know that His children will find the place too narrow for them and will say, "The place is too narrow for me:? make room for me that I may dwell."
 ?
 Whether the nations?decide they'll take G-d's land or not, His Plan and His Purpose will come about.? I'm so thankful for our fishermen - for James and Ross and Joe Good and?Yair Davidi and Steve Mathe and so many more that are out there throwing their nets.? Let us all pray for and support these men of G-d.
 ?
 What an incredible time to be alive!? How blessed we are to see the prophetic word unfold before our very eyes!? ?I have felt overwhelmed by the wonderful teaching and the emails of this day.
 ?
 My love to you, Betty, and to all our fellow travelers on this Ancient Path,
 ?
 Pat/Abigail? 
 

> From: bkgivin at charter.net
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; ui at mcarr.us
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:01:55 -0600
> CC: 
> 
> Just read this second post and found dates to be very interesting. Of
> course it brings up much to think about and question. I remember in days
> past sitting under the teaching of Joseph Good, when he would emphasize over
> and over that in Hebraic thought, what happened before will happen
> again...basically that history repeats itself...and beyond that, even more
> fascinating is that certain selected events often pattern themselves after
> one another and occur on the same date. May what happened 60 years ago
> happen again in regards to Israel!
> 
> I have always been fascinated by this concept and find it to be very
> thought-provoking when it comes to this Kislev 17 date. Over 60 years ago,
> on this date, it definitely looked as if basically all nations were against
> Israel, yet almost at the last minute, the tide turned in Israel's favor
> thru our own David Horowitz working behind the scenes following HaShem's
> bidding. It makes me wish we had a David Horowitz today to work behind the
> scenes this Tuesday, Kislev 17, at the upcoming International Conference in
> Annapolis, MD next week.
> 
> Hopefully, as you stated, James, our own president will step up to the plate
> and back Israel. As an avid Bible believer, we know that he surely knows
> G-d's promises to bless those who bless Israel; but we also know that
> knowing a thing is much easier than following thru with what we will then do
> about it. Hopefully many Americans who love Israel will be supporting both
> our Secretary of State and our President with our prayers, whether we
> personally like them or adhere to their political viewpoints or not.
> 
> I also wonder if the establishment of the authenticity of the Isaiah portion
> of the Dead Sea Scrolls might also have some reflection on our day. If we
> only briefly review Isaiah 40-66, it is definitely mind-altering, as it so
> strongly deals with the Redemption Plan of G-d's people with a special
> emphasis on the House of Israel, as they finally awake, hear the "clarion
> call" to come out of Babylon and acknowledge the Oneness of the Holy One of
> Israel. 
> 
> We do know from these passages as well as a multitude of others that as
> HaShem has scattered his sheep, he will indeed gather them back. The Haggai
> passage regarding 24 Kislev and G-d's promise to bless his people "from this
> day forward,", as you mentioned James (and Ross in your message today)is
> very specific. It appears to be significant that it is such close proximity
> to this Annapolis Conference. In fact it is a SEVEN DAY interval. 
> 
> This is getting long, I know, but to answer your rhetorical question, James,
> I don't think it is a coincidence that our Torah reading is VayYishlah,(Gen
> 32:4-36)where we read of Jacob and his mightly wrestling the malach; and
> also the separation between Jacob and Esau as brothers, one to the West of
> the Jordan and one to the East of the Jordan. The haftarah, Obadiah, is
> certainly not mere coincidence, as it even speaks of "casting lots" for
> Jerusalem, but it has a good ending. May it be so!
> 
> Shavuah tov and Blessings,
> 
> Betty/Elisheva
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 3:09 PM
> To: ui at mcarr.us
> Cc: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
> 
> I know many of you have been following the plans of our U.S. 
> government to host this massive upcoming International Conference for 
> the Establishment of a Palestinian State in Annapolis, MD next week, 
> hosted by our Secretary of State and our President. I had not noticed 
> until Gary Arvidson forwarded me the story just now, that the date of 
> this upcoming meeting, which will draw over 50 nations together, falls 
> on the Hebrew calendar 60 years to the day of the partition of 
> Palestine in 1947. I have written often of how our own David Horowitz, 
> founder of UIWU, was present at that historic first UN meeting, and 
> was able to lobby three influential votes from Central American 
> countries that put Israel over the edge, but I had always concentrated 
> on the date, November 29th, not Kislev 17, its Hebrew equivalent. That 
> same date, by the way, was the date that Prof. Eliezar Sukenick, of 
> Hebrew University, first identified the Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea 
> Caves, as authentically from the 2nd century BCE.
> 
> Next Tuesday, the day the Conference begins, falls on Kislev 17. I 
> can't help thinking that this Kislev 24 (Dec 4th), a day that lives in 
> infamy in Jewish History and in the Prophet words of Haggai, might 
> well play a part in something quite significant this year. It is clear 
> that we are not living in normal times.
> 
> The Prophets are clear about all the nations gathering against 
> Jerusalem in the last days. Perhaps gathering is not merely military 
> invasion, though that could come, but even gatherings such as this 
> kind of summit, in which the world with one voice speaks for the 
> partition of Israel into the "two State" solution. The irony is that 
> long ago, with the Balfour Declaration, a "two State" solution was 
> proposed and nearly implemented. It is called Israel and Jordan, and 
> it dived things along the West and East Bank of the Jordan River. I 
> think we are going to see the anti-Israeli rhetoric come out of the 
> woodwork in this Conference. We will have to wait and see. I still 
> have hope, however, that the U.S. will stand its ground in behalf of 
> Israel depending on how things go. In the time of Truman the State 
> department and many in our government strongly opposed Truman's 
> recognition of Israel in 1947. They were actually flabbergasted and 
> enraged. But he did it anyway. Maybe GWB, in his last days in office, 
> will find some resources deep within his biblical experiences to 
> remember and know that YHVH blesses those who bless Israel, who after 
> 2000 years of Exile, including the Holocaust, deserve at least the 
> tiny West Bank of the ancient land of Palestine.
> 
> Is it any accident that the Torah reading today is VaYishlach, dealing 
> with Jacob separating from the "Arab" populations of Esau, who were to 
> live on the East side of the Jordan, not the West. And Obadiah is the 
> Haftarah reading...
> 
> Shabbat Shalom,
> 
> James
>_______________________________________________
> 
> 
>_______________________________________________

 _______________________________________________


From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 24 22:02:34 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:02:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
In-Reply-To: <1000483291-1195960390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1328995691-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <CEE731A9-CB4C-41C4-8DB6-FA3C0E4C1E12@earthlink.net><00c401c82ef6$644846f0$653c66c9@bettygivin><BAY115-W13BEF438D0A186221D645DBA740@phx.gbl>
	<1000483291-1195960390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1328995691-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W2136989635A547992A07CBA740@phx.gbl>


Amen to that, dear brother!> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 03:12:43 +0000> > Betty, Pat and James,> > I was commenting to Ross and some of the other ROF folks how overwhelmed I was with all that we have been discussing and learning.> > So much to learn, unlearn and re-learn.> > We are fortunate that we serve a patient and compassionate God.> > It became apparent to me today the it is His ways that matter not ours, ours only bring trouble. So learn His ways we must or perish.> > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T> > -----Original Message-----> From: patricia robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>> > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:31:44 > To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>, mark carr <ui at mcarr.us>> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story> > > Yes, Betty, may it happen again that Israel prevails against all odds on this Kislev 17th.  We no longer have David, but his work lives on in all of us.  The fishermen are throwing their nets.  The tribes are gathering on the Ancient Path (as James calls it).  Our eyes are focused on going home.  We are coming out of Babylon.  >  > I so hope that our President will stand up for Israel.  But even if he doesn't, and the insideous plan is instigated, our G-d will have the last word.  We know from Isaiah 49:14-21 that Jerusalem's walls are continually before Him, that her destroyers will go away, and that His children will gather themselves together and come.  And  we know that His children will find the place too narrow for them and will say, "The place is too narrow for me:  make room for me that I may dwell.">  > Whether the nations decide they'll take G-d's land or not, His Plan and His Purpose will come about.  I'm so thankful for our fishermen - for James and Ross and Joe Good and Yair Davidi and Steve Mathe and so many more that are out there throwing their nets.  Let us all pray for and support these men of G-d.>  > What an incredible time to be alive!  How blessed we are to see the prophetic word unfold before our very eyes!   I have felt overwhelmed by the wonderful teaching and the emails of this day.>  > My love to you, Betty, and to all our fellow travelers on this Ancient Path,>  > Pat/Abigail  > > > > From: bkgivin at charter.net> > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; ui at mcarr.us> > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story> > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:01:55 -0600> > CC: > > > > Just read this second post and found dates to be very interesting. Of> > course it brings up much to think about and question. I remember in days> > past sitting under the teaching of Joseph Good, when he would emphasize over> > and over that in Hebraic thought, what happened before will happen> > again...basically that history repeats itself...and beyond that, even more> > fascinating is that certain selected events often pattern themselves after> > one another and occur on the same date. May what happened 60 years ago> > happen again in regards to Israel!> > > > I have always been fascinated by this concept and find it to be very> > thought-provoking when it comes to this Kislev 17 date. Over 60 years ago,> > on this date, it definitely looked as if basically all nations were against> > Israel, yet almost at the last minute, the tide turned in Israel's favor> > thru our own David Horowitz working behind the scenes following HaShem's> > bidding. It makes me wish we had a David Horowitz today to work behind the> > scenes this Tuesday, Kislev 17, at the upcoming International Conference in> > Annapolis, MD next week.> > > > Hopefully, as you stated, James, our own president will step up to the plate> > and back Israel. As an avid Bible believer, we know that he surely knows> > G-d's promises to bless those who bless Israel; but we also know that> > knowing a thing is much easier than following thru with what we will then do> > about it. Hopefully many Americans who love Israel will be supporting both> > our Secretary of State and our President with our prayers, whether we> > personally like them or adhere to their political viewpoints or not.> > > > I also wonder if the establishment of the authenticity of the Isaiah portion> > of the Dead Sea Scrolls might also have some reflection on our day. If we> > only briefly review Isaiah 40-66, it is definitely mind-altering, as it so> > strongly deals with the Redemption Plan of G-d's people with a special> > emphasis on the House of Israel, as they finally awake, hear the "clarion> > call" to come out of Babylon and acknowledge the Oneness of the Holy One of> > Israel. > > > > We do know from these passages as well as a multitude of others that as> > HaShem has scattered his sheep, he will indeed gather them back. The Haggai> > passage regarding 24 Kislev and G-d's promise to bless his people "from this> > day forward,", as you mentioned James (and Ross in your message today)is> > very specific. It appears to be significant that it is such close proximity> > to this Annapolis Conference. In fact it is a SEVEN DAY interval. > > > > This is getting long, I know, but to answer your rhetorical question, James,> > I don't think it is a coincidence that our Torah reading is VayYishlah,(Gen> > 32:4-36)where we read of Jacob and his mightly wrestling the malach; and> > also the separation between Jacob and Esau as brothers, one to the West of> > the Jordan and one to the East of the Jordan. The haftarah, Obadiah, is> > certainly not mere coincidence, as it even speaks of "casting lots" for> > Jerusalem, but it has a good ending. May it be so!> > > > Shavuah tov and Blessings,> > > > Betty/Elisheva> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----> > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org> > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor> > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 3:09 PM> > To: ui at mcarr.us> > Cc: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> > Subject: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story> > > > I know many of you have been following the plans of our U.S. > > government to host this massive upcoming International Conference for > > the Establishment of a Palestinian State in Annapolis, MD next week, > > hosted by our Secretary of State and our President. I had not noticed > > until Gary Arvidson forwarded me the story just now, that the date of > > this upcoming meeting, which will draw over 50 nations together, falls > > on the Hebrew calendar 60 years to the day of the partition of > > Palestine in 1947. I have written often of how our own David Horowitz, > > founder of UIWU, was present at that historic first UN meeting, and > > was able to lobby three influential votes from Central American > > countries that put Israel over the edge, but I had always concentrated > > on the date, November 29th, not Kislev 17, its Hebrew equivalent. That > > same date, by the way, was the date that Prof. Eliezar Sukenick, of > > Hebrew University, first identified the Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea > > Caves, as authentically from the 2nd century BCE.> > > > Next Tuesday, the day the Conference begins, falls on Kislev 17. I > > can't help thinking that this Kislev 24 (Dec 4th), a day that lives in > > infamy in Jewish History and in the Prophet words of Haggai, might > > well play a part in something quite significant this year. It is clear > > that we are not living in normal times.> > > > The Prophets are clear about all the nations gathering against > > Jerusalem in the last days. Perhaps gathering is not merely military > > invasion, though that could come, but even gatherings such as this > > kind of summit, in which the world with one voice speaks for the > > partition of Israel into the "two State" solution. The irony is that > > long ago, with the Balfour Declaration, a "two State" solution was > > proposed and nearly implemented. It is called Israel and Jordan, and > > it dived things along the West and East Bank of the Jordan River. I > > think we are going to see the anti-Israeli rhetoric come out of the > > woodwork in this Conference. We will have to wait and see. I still > > have hope, however, that the U.S. will stand its ground in behalf of > > Israel depending on how things go. In the time of Truman the State > > department and many in our government strongly opposed Truman's > > recognition of Israel in 1947. They were actually flabbergasted and > > enraged. But he did it anyway. Maybe GWB, in his last days in office, > > will find some resources deep within his biblical experiences to > > remember and know that YHVH blesses those who bless Israel, who after > > 2000 years of Exile, including the Holocaust, deserve at least the > > tiny West Bank of the ancient land of Palestine.> > > > Is it any accident that the Torah reading today is VaYishlach, dealing > > with Jacob separating from the "Arab" populations of Esau, who were to > > live on the East side of the Jordan, not the West. And Obadiah is the > > Haftarah reading...> > > > Shabbat Shalom,> > > > James> >_______________________________________________> > > > > >_______________________________________________> > _______________________________________________> 
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Sat Nov 24 22:07:17 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:07:17 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] John/Ross Abraham's Seed
In-Reply-To: <BAY115-W2136989635A547992A07CBA740@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00f801c82f18$ab364400$653c66c9@bettygivin>

John, yes, yes yes!  Overwhelmed is a good word for it.  I have not been
able to listen in to the teachings from the Synagogue Without Walls (love
that name!) before today as I have other Shabbat commitments, but today I
had the pleasure of sitting at home near my computer, with my Bible open to
listen and study!  Baruch HaShem! It brought back memories of nearly 20
years ago when I sat under the teaching of Joe Good, and it was so 'good!'
(pun intended. 

 

You are so right--so much to "learn, unlearn and re-learn!"  Years ago when
I was still in church, I came across a new testament passage (in Hebrews, I
think) that said that something about followers of Jesus being "Abraham's
seed."  I have no idea why at the time that that verse blew me away as I
certainly had never heard the word, Torah, didn't really think much about
Israel, and certainly had never any Jewish people or any people following
the Ancient Path, but the fact that I was "Abraham's seed," somehow had a
profound effect on me. 

 

Since then I have had to learn, unlearn and re-learn many concepts(and the
process continues), but one thing has stayed with me, that I am a daughter
of Abraham as are many of you, both sons and daughters, because you are
committed to finding the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who first
introduced Himself to Abraham as El Shaddai. That name is in itself,
interesting.  I think I have an idea of why he chose to use that name, but
will let some of you maybe give it some thought as well.  

 

In Gen 17, we learn why G-d chose Abraham in the first place--because He
knew that Abraham would teach his children, and so from generation to
generation, that covenant has gone on, from parents to children and on down
the line.  But in order for parents or teachers to really teach, the
children have to listen!  And that is where we come in.  We have to be
willing to listen and take the words into our hearts and minds and let them
guide our being.

 

I was talking with Pat this evening and she had an interesting comment on
Malachi 3 along these lines, but I will let her explain that.

 

Ross, I have said this before, but I just cannot help myself.  Years ago
when you kept saying how much you wanted to teach, but you hadn't yet really
had the opportunity except on a individual basis, but I think G-d was
preparing you in that He gave you so much quiet time at the plant to study
at night.  Then at the right time, he answered your prayer and gave you the
desires of your heart--and maybe more than you ever dreamed of imagined--all
because you kept that dream before you and worked towards it!  And now in
the Synagogue without Walls, it is a reality!  May G-d continue to bless and
inspire you as you teach!

 

Blessings to all and Shavuah Tov (have a good week!)

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 10:03 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story

 

Amen to that, dear brother!

> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 03:12:43 +0000
> 
> Betty, Pat and James,
> 
> I was commenting to Ross and some of the other ROF folks how overwhelmed I
was with all that we have been discussing and learning.
> 
> So much to learn, unlearn and re-learn.
> 
> We are fortunate that we serve a patient and compassionate God.
> 
> It became apparent to me today the it is His ways that matter not ours,
ours only bring trouble. So learn His ways we must or perish.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: patricia robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
> 
> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:31:44 
> To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>, mark carr <ui at mcarr.us>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
> 
> 
> Yes, Betty, may it happen again that Israel prevails against all odds on
this Kislev 17th.  We no longer have David, but his work lives on in all of
us.  The fishermen are throwing their nets.  The tribes are gathering on the
Ancient Path (as James calls it).  Our eyes are focused on going home.  We
are coming out of Babylon.  
>  
> I so hope that our President will stand up for Israel.  But even if he
doesn't, and the insideous plan is instigated, our G-d will have the last
word.  We know from Isaiah 49:14-21 that Jerusalem's walls are continually
before Him, that her destroyers will go away, and that His children will
gather themselves together and come.  And  we know that His children will
find the place too narrow for them and will say, "The place is too narrow
for me:  make room for me that I may dwell."
>  
> Whether the nations decide they'll take G-d's land or not, His Plan and
His Purpose will come about.  I'm so thankful for our fishermen - for James
and Ross and Joe Good and Yair Davidi and Steve Mathe and so many more that
are out there throwing their nets.  Let us all pray for and support these
men of G-d.
>  
> What an incredible time to be alive!  How blessed we are to see the
prophetic word unfold before our very eyes!   I have felt overwhelmed by the
wonderful teaching and the emails of this day.
>  
> My love to you, Betty, and to all our fellow travelers on this Ancient
Path,
>  
> Pat/Abigail  
> 
> 
> > From: bkgivin at charter.net
> > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; ui at mcarr.us
> > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
> > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:01:55 -0600
> > CC: 
> > 
> > Just read this second post and found dates to be very interesting. Of
> > course it brings up much to think about and question. I remember in days
> > past sitting under the teaching of Joseph Good, when he would emphasize
over
> > and over that in Hebraic thought, what happened before will happen
> > again...basically that history repeats itself...and beyond that, even
more
> > fascinating is that certain selected events often pattern themselves
after
> > one another and occur on the same date. May what happened 60 years ago
> > happen again in regards to Israel!
> > 
> > I have always been fascinated by this concept and find it to be very
> > thought-provoking when it comes to this Kislev 17 date. Over 60 years
ago,
> > on this date, it definitely looked as if basically all nations were
against
> > Israel, yet almost at the last minute, the tide turned in Israel's favor
> > thru our own David Horowitz working behind the scenes following HaShem's
> > bidding. It makes me wish we had a David Horowitz today to work behind
the
> > scenes this Tuesday, Kislev 17, at the upcoming International Conference
in
> > Annapolis, MD next week.
> > 
> > Hopefully, as you stated, James, our own president will step up to the
plate
> > and back Israel. As an avid Bible believer, we know that he surely knows
> > G-d's promises to bless those who bless Israel; but we also know that
> > knowing a thing is much easier than following thru with what we will
then do
> > about it. Hopefully many Americans who love Israel will be supporting
both
> > our Secretary of State and our President with our prayers, whether we
> > personally like them or adhere to their political viewpoints or not.
> > 
> > I also wonder if the establishment of the authenticity of the Isaiah
portion
> > of the Dead Sea Scrolls might also have some reflection on our day. If
we
> > only briefly review Isaiah 40-66, it is definitely mind-altering, as it
so
> > strongly deals with the Redemption Plan of G-d's people with a special
> > emphasis on the House of Israel, as they finally awake, hear the
"clarion
> > call" to come out of Babylon and acknowledge the Oneness of the Holy One
of
> > Israel. 
> > 
> > We do know from these passages as well as a multitude of others that as
> > HaShem has scattered his sheep, he will indeed gather them back. The
Haggai
> > passage regarding 24 Kislev and G-d's promise to bless his people "from
this
> > day forward,", as you mentioned James (and Ross in your message today)is
> > very specific. It appears to be significant that it is such close
proximity
> > to this Annapolis Conference. In fact it is a SEVEN DAY interval. 
> > 
> > This is getting long, I know, but to answer your rhetorical question,
James,
> > I don't think it is a coincidence that our Torah reading is
VayYishlah,(Gen
> > 32:4-36)where we read of Jacob and his mightly wrestling the malach; and
> > also the separation between Jacob and Esau as brothers, one to the West
of
> > the Jordan and one to the East of the Jordan. The haftarah, Obadiah, is
> > certainly not mere coincidence, as it even speaks of "casting lots" for
> > Jerusalem, but it has a good ending. May it be so!
> > 
> > Shavuah tov and Blessings,
> > 
> > Betty/Elisheva
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 3:09 PM
> > To: ui at mcarr.us
> > Cc: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> > Subject: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
> > 
> > I know many of you have been following the plans of our U.S. 
> > government to host this massive upcoming International Conference for 
> > the Establishment of a Palestinian State in Annapolis, MD next week, 
> > hosted by our Secretary of State and our President. I had not noticed 
> > until Gary Arvidson forwarded me the story just now, that the date of 
> > this upcoming meeting, which will draw over 50 nations together, falls 
> > on the Hebrew calendar 60 years to the day of the partition of 
> > Palestine in 1947. I have written often of how our own David Horowitz, 
> > founder of UIWU, was present at that historic first UN meeting, and 
> > was able to lobby three influential votes from Central American 
> > countries that put Israel over the edge, but I had always concentrated 
> > on the date, November 29th, not Kislev 17, its Hebrew equivalent. That 
> > same date, by the way, was the date that Prof. Eliezar Sukenick, of 
> > Hebrew University, first identified the Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea 
> > Caves, as authentically from the 2nd century BCE.
> > 
> > Next Tuesday, the day the Conference begins, falls on Kislev 17. I 
> > can't help thinking that this Kislev 24 (Dec 4th), a day that lives in 
> > infamy in Jewish History and in the Prophet words of Haggai, might 
> > well play a part in something quite significant this year. It is clear 
> > that we are not living in normal times.
> > 
> > The Prophets are clear about all the nations gathering against 
> > Jerusalem in the last days. Perhaps gathering is not merely military 
> > invasion, though that could come, but even gatherings such as this 
> > kind of summit, in which the world with one voice speaks for the 
> > partition of Israel into the "two State" solution. The irony is that 
> > long ago, with the Balfour Declaration, a "two State" solution was 
> > proposed and nearly implemented. It is called Israel and Jordan, and 
> > it dived things along the West and East Bank of the Jordan River. I 
> > think we are going to see the anti-Israeli rhetoric come out of the 
> > woodwork in this Conference. We will have to wait and see. I still 
> > have hope, however, that the U.S. will stand its ground in behalf of 
> > Israel depending on how things go. In the time of Truman the State 
> > department and many in our government strongly opposed Truman's 
> > recognition of Israel in 1947. They were actually flabbergasted and 
> > enraged. But he did it anyway. Maybe GWB, in his last days in office, 
> > will find some resources deep within his biblical experiences to 
> > remember and know that YHVH blesses those who bless Israel, who after 
> > 2000 years of Exile, including the Holocaust, deserve at least the 
> > tiny West Bank of the ancient land of Palestine.
> > 
> > Is it any accident that the Torah reading today is VaYishlach, dealing 
> > with Jacob separating from the "Arab" populations of Esau, who were to 
> > live on the East side of the Jordan, not the West. And Obadiah is the 
> > Haftarah reading...
> > 
> > Shabbat Shalom,
> > 
> > James
> >_______________________________________________
> > 
> > 
> >_______________________________________________
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 

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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat Nov 24 23:50:15 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 00:50:15 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Most Sobering New Story
Message-ID: <be3.242e4d3d.347a6717@aol.com>

Shalom to all - 
 
    May HaShem have mercy on HIS Land.....and may we avert the evil 
decrees....
 
    If there ever was a time to open up your hearts to HaShem...now is the 
time........
 
    B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland),
            Hanoch



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Sun Nov 25 01:59:47 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:59:47 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] trienniel portion if cycle were started Nissan 1
Message-ID: <20071125025947.4YG18.423295.root@fepweb07>


Hello all,

While thinking about the upcoming conference in Annapolis, I became curious as to what the torah portion would have been had we started the cycle on Nissan 1, instead of Tishrei 1. . . did a google search and found that the readings for Nov. 24 would have been GEN 39:1-23 (Joseph falsely accused by Potiphar's wife)
& ISA 52:3-9

Next week's portion will be GEN 40:1-23 (The dreams of the cupbearer and the baker.) Interesting that this is part of the annual cycle reading for next week. The reading from the prophets is Amos 1:3 ? 2:6. The particular site that I went to also has a reading from the Psalms every week.
http://www.messianic.ws/triennial1G.htm? (I don't know anything about this group other than that they began the cycle in Nissan.)
I feel that the Psalm is particularly appropriate as the conference at Annapolis approaches this week :
Psalm 33
1 Sing for joy in YHVH, O you righteous ones; praise is becoming to the upright. 2 Give thanks to YHVH with the lyre; sing praises to Him with a harp of ten strings. 3 Sing to Him a new song; play skillfully with a shout of joy. 4 For the word of YHVH is upright, and all His work is done in faithfulness. 5 He loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of the lovingkindness of YHVH. 6 By the word of YHVH the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host. 7 He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deeps in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear YHVH; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. 9 For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast. 10 YHVH nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples. 11 The counsel of YHVH stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation. 12 Blessed is the nation whose God is YHVH, the people whom He has chosen for His own inheritance. 13 YHVH looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men; 14 from His dwelling place He looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, 15 He who fashions the hearts of them all, He who understands all their works. 16 The king is not saved by a mighty army; a warrior is not delivered by great strength. 17 A horse is a false hope for victory; nor does it deliver anyone by its great strength. 18 Behold, the eye of YHVH is on those who fear Him, on those who hope for His lovingkindness, 19 To deliver their soul from death and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waits for YHVH; He is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart rejoices in Him, because we trust in His holy name. 22 Let Your lovingkindness, O YHVH, be upon us, according as we have hoped in You.
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From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Sun Nov 25 02:30:06 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 0:30:06 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Late Introduction
Message-ID: <20071125033006.E7J5U.423403.root@fepweb07>

I live in Slidell, LA with two of my children, Skip age 3 and Jana age 13.  My oldest daughter is 22 and expecting her first child.  My oldest son is in his 2nd year at the University of Texas.  

I first because interested in the Torah and living a "more biblically authenic lifestyle"  in 1991.  I attended Joe's congregation in Nederland with my mother Betty Givin.  Sadly, in 1997, I turned by back on HaShem.  I was angry with things that had happened in my life including the death of my son Joshua in 1993 at age three and a half.  I was frustrated because I was not finding answers to my many question and I felt that I fit in nowhere.  I tried to forget HaShem, but in His Love and Mercy, He never forget me or gave up on me.  In June of last year, my heart once again was turned back to Him.  I am so very thankful for this second chance.  I still don't have the answers, but it no longer matters.  It is seeking of the Truth that matters.  One of my favorite chapters in the Torah is Deuteronomy 30.  Verses 11-14 really speaks to me now.  The commandments are not so far away, they are very near in our hearts.

I am so very thankful for this newly formed dialogue group, for Ross and the others in St. Francisville, and for the "synagogue without walls".  We truly are living in exciting times.  

Kim Alvarado


From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sun Nov 25 08:25:49 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:25:49 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Names and faces
Message-ID: <cf6.21301ef4.347adfed@aol.com>

I am building a page on my web site that allows you to put a face to a  name. 
 If you want to be on the page, send me a picture. It may be tomorrow  before 
it is updated. This is so that people can associate and feel more a part  of 
this.
 
_http://rootsoffaith.org/Meet_Roots_Members.htm_ 
(http://rootsoffaith.org/Meet_Roots_Members.htm) 
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 25 08:42:17 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:42:17 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Most Sobering New Story
In-Reply-To: <be3.242e4d3d.347a6717@aol.com>
References: <be3.242e4d3d.347a6717@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W3296849FD4DDBD83918F04BA740@phx.gbl>


Hanoch, as always, your words touch my heart, dear brother Judah.  May this evil decree be averted.  And may we all pray for the peace of Jerusalem as commanded in Psalm 122:6:  "Sha-alu shalom yerushalayim."
 
Pat/Abigail


From: YoungBarzel at aol.comDate: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 00:50:15 -0500To: ui at mcarr.usCC: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] Re: Most Sobering New Story

Shalom to all - 
 
    May HaShem have mercy on HIS Land.....and may we avert the evil decrees....
 
    If there ever was a time to open up your hearts to HaShem...now is the time........
 
    B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland),
            Hanoch


Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sun Nov 25 08:53:28 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:53:28 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Most Sobering New Story
Message-ID: <bba.22604306.347ae668@aol.com>

 
 
In a message dated 11/25/2007 8:49:33 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com writes:

Hanoch,  as always, your words touch my heart, dear brother Judah.  May this 
evil  decree be averted.  And may we all pray for the peace of Jerusalem  as 
commanded in Psalm 122:6:  "Sha-alu shalom  yerushalayim."

Pat/Abigail



I will be sending out a note later that I hope we can distribute far  and 
wide urging people to join in an international prayer against this vain  thing 
that the nations imagine.  We have people literally all over the  world that are 
joining our ranks. It is a small group at this point, but  strategically 
"scattered".
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 25 09:08:19 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:08:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Book Not to be Missed
Message-ID: <08C4F83C-D6EA-4DBD-A366-F4CE12B7E072@earthlink.net>

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, chief rabbi of Britain, is known to many of you,  
either from his books and writings or otherwise. I believe J. David  
Davis had the privilege of meeting him some years ago. Anyway, I  
received this review of his new book, written by the famous academic  
scholar Jacob Neusner, and it was so flattering and positive I  
immediately ordered the book. It sounds to me like this book, and the  
way in which he builds his story around three "parables," is truly  
quintessential to capturing the essence of the Jewish understanding of  
"fixing the world," and the ways in which Torah is vital to this task.  
I wanted to pass on the review and hope that others will obtain and  
read it. It should be in bookstores.

James Tabor

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A Review of by Prof. Jacob Neusner


Jonathan Sacks, The Home We Build Together: Recreating Society. London  
and New York 2007: Continuum. ?16.99.

    Chief Rabbi of Britain Jonathan Sacks is the premier public  
intellectual of Judaism in the English speaking world and has no  
obvious counterpart in the communities of Judaism conducted in other  
languages. No one in Israeli intellectual life competes. As a social  
philosopher he succeeds Martin Buber (Jerusalem) and Abraham Heschel  
(New York). He brings a first-class analytical mind to the problems of  
contemporary society and culture and draws on the entire Western  
tradition of social and political thought as he systematically solves  
those problems. He engages in dialogue with the political thought of  
the West and contributes a particularly Judaic perspective to the  
conversation. He embodies all that Judaism has to offer to the  
solution of the contemporary social crisis of culture: the collapse of  
Europe.
    The problem he addresses here is the multi-cultural dilemma, which  
affirmed the right of ethnic and religious minorities to be different  
but led to self-segregation:

    Multiculturalism has led not to integration but to segregation. It  
has allowed groups to live separately, with no incentive to integrate? 
It was intended to promote tolerance. Instead, the result has been? 
societies more abrasive, fractured, and intolerant than they once were.

    But he sees multiculturalism as a symptom of the "social breakdown  
in liberal democracies," the collapse of the family, the shattering of  
political consensus, the decay of culture, including civility and good  
manners. He does more than lament, he proposes a way forward: "society  
building:" "We need to reinvigorate the concept of the common good."  
He holds that "culture is fragmenting into non-communicating systems  
of belief in which civil discourse ends and reasoned argument becomes  
impossible."
    The book is in three parts. First Sacks describes the origins of  
the crisis: "the loss of moral consensus, the impact of technology on  
culture, the failure of national self-confidence, the breakdown of the  
family, and the inward turn from society to community." His account  
entails three parables:

    In the first, a hundred strangers have been wandering around the  
countryside in search of a place to stay. They arrive at the gate of a  
large country house. The owner comes to the gate?

And welcomes the strangers as guests. The strangers remain guests:  
society is a country house.

    The second: a hundred strangers in search of a home find  
themselves in the middle of a big city. There they find a hotel?they  
book their rooms, unpack, and stay.

It remains a place where everyone is?a stranger and sojourner. That is  
society as hotel.

    Third: a hundred strangers arrive at a town?they are met by the  
mayor?"We have a patch of empty land?We will help you build there?let  
us do this together?They invest their energies in what they build.  
Their relationship with the place is not purely contractual. They  
helped build it, it is of their making. What we build embodies  
something of us. At the same time the people of the town have made it  
clear that the houses they build must be ? congruent with the  
architectural character of the town as it is. So the homes they build  
are recognizably of the place where they are, not the place they have  
come from?They have the sense of being part of a team?that is society  
as the home we build together.

    This parable prepares the way for the second and third parts of  
the book. In the second part Sacks sketches "the rudiments of a theory  
of society building," and in the third he proposes how to strengthen  
civic nationalism, "the identity that comes not from color or creed  
but from the fact that?we come together to build something larger than  
any of our groups could achieve alone. Society is "the home we build  
together."
Part one of the book, "how did we get here," covers these topics:  
society as country house, note, or home; a brief history of  
multiculturalism, the defeat of freedom in the name of freedom,  
victims, technology and the fragmentation of culture, the inward turn.  
Part two is devoted to a theory of society creation: social contract,  
social covenant, telling the story, the responsible society, the home  
we build together. Part Three, "where next," covers these topics: the  
uses of covenant, who am I, face-to-fact, side-by-side, civility,  
multi-culturalism or tolerance, mending the broken family, a religious  
defense of liberal democracy, a time to build.
    The key conception of Sacks?s account, which runs through the  
book, is the theme of covenant. He distinguishes between state and  
society, law and free association, social contract and social.  
covenant. The social contract,

which creates the state, is between individuals and the body to which  
they delegate power. That is the political domain. It has two places? 
the individual and the state. But there is a different domain?civil  
society. Here relationships are covenantal, not contractual. They have  
nothing to do with the market or the state?they are voluntary  
associations?

    Sacks speaks of Britain, but his observations encompass the USA as  
well, and he draws generously upon the American political tradition.  
He finds much to admire in the American amalgam of deep religiosity in  
the private domain joined with the separation of church and state, in  
the American resort to religious rhetoric on public occasions, and in  
the American tradition of cultural diversity joined with political  
unity. His heroes include not only Locke but Jefferson, Madison,  
Lincoln, Kennedy, de Tocqueville and Cr?vecoeur. Judaism?s social  
thought plays a modest outward part in the exposition, but it forms  
the entire foundation on which he builds.
    This book joins with its predecessors ?including One People?   
Tradition, Modernity, and Jewish Unity (1993);  Faith in the Future  
(1995); Radical Then, Radical Now. The Legacy of the World?s Oldest  
Religion (2001), The Dignity of Difference (2004) ? to form an oeuvre  
of moral authority and compelling logic. For a corpus of writing  
substantially less ambitious than this some have received the Nobel  
Prize.

--

Jacob Neusner

Distinguished Service Professor of the History and Theology of Judaism
Senior Fellow, Institute of Advanced Theology
Bard College
Annandale-on-Hudson, New York 12504
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 25 09:19:28 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:19:28 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] 60 Years to the Day
In-Reply-To: <d36.1a1b0280.347a1568@aol.com>
References: <d36.1a1b0280.347a1568@aol.com>
Message-ID: <24AF32A3-38D3-4C69-9972-1DEC328E4569@earthlink.net>

Yes, I think there is much to learn from both the annual and the  
triennial cycles of reading the Torah.  It is sometimes easy to make  
something out of anything, one can always find "connections" if one  
looks hard enough, but on the other hands, some of the historic  
correspondences are quite striking and I think of undeniable  
significance.

James

On Nov 24, 2007, at 7:01 PM, rndavar at aol.com wrote:

> Dear James and all,
>
> I appreciate you forwarding this to the list. I too feel that we  
> should pay special attention to dates, especially in these exciting  
> times in which we live.
>
> After the class today when you called and informed me of this I  
> thought of a few things.
>
> First, I am reminded of the words in Psalm 2. I would encourage all  
> to read these words.  "How the nations rage and imagine a vain  
> thing..." The thought that these nations have aligned themselves  
> against Israel - God's son is quite arrogant.
>
> I would also like to remind everyone on this list of something.   
> While I have the utmost respect for the reading cycle followed  
> according to the annual cycle and have been amazed at how many  
> things seem to be in line with current events - something that I  
> have learned from you James.....I am convinced that this most  
> ancient triennial cycle has some uncanny correlations as I try and  
> show every week with the actual dates on the Hebrew Calendar. The  
> rabbis point these things out in the Talmud and many obscure  
> teachings from the Talmud begin to make sense when one understands  
> that they are making these statements based upon these ancient  
> arrangements of Torah and Prophetic texts.
>
> The torah reading next week according to this cycle of readings is  
> found in Genesis 12.  One only has to read the opening words to be  
> reminded that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who  
> curse (or treat lightly) He will curse!
>
> More on that later though. I have to edit the classes today and try  
> and get them up on line.  I hope that everyone had a blessed Sabbath  
> and pray that we are all focused closely on world events -  
> constantly looking at the world through the eyes of the Ancient  
> prophets of Israel!
>
> Shalom, Ross
>
> Ross K. Nichols
> www.RootsofFaith.org
>
>
>
>
> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top  
> money wasters of 2007.
> _______________________________________________

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 25 09:57:59 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:57:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Late Introduction
In-Reply-To: <20071125033006.E7J5U.423403.root@fepweb07>
References: <20071125033006.E7J5U.423403.root@fepweb07>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W1933B4ADD494119EDF2787BA740@phx.gbl>


Kim, your presence in any group is such a special blessing.  Baruch Hashem for your involvement in the Synagogue Without Walls!  I love your posts!!!! ~ Pat   > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 00:30:06 -0800> From: kim.alvarado at charter.net> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: [Dialogue] Late Introduction> > I live in Slidell, LA with two of my children, Skip age 3 and Jana age 13. My oldest daughter is 22 and expecting her first child. My oldest son is in his 2nd year at the University of Texas. > > I first because interested in the Torah and living a "more biblically authenic lifestyle" in 1991. I attended Joe's congregation in Nederland with my mother Betty Givin. Sadly, in 1997, I turned by back on HaShem. I was angry with things that had happened in my life including the death of my son Joshua in 1993 at age three and a half. I was frustrated because I was not finding answers to my many question and I felt that I fit in nowhere. I tried to forget HaShem, but in His Love and Mercy, He never forget me or gave up on me. In June of last year, my heart once again was turned back to Him. I am so very thankful for this second chance. I still don't have the answers, but it no longer matters. It is seeking of the Truth that matters. One of my favorite chapters in the Torah is Deuteronomy 30. Verses 11-14 really speaks to me now. The commandments are not so far away, they are very near in our hearts.> > I am so very thankful for this newly formed dialogue group, for Ross and the others in St. Francisville, and for the "synagogue without walls". We truly are living in exciting times. > > Kim Alvarado> _______________________________________________
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From info at poweredbyhadavar.com  Sun Nov 25 10:17:03 2007
From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:17:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Late Introduction
Message-ID: <869899.85655.qm@web1009.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Shalom to all!  This is a late introduction to the rest of the group also. Real quick, I am Rick Gozhanskij (Levi Ben-Yisrael) and my wife is Rita.  We have two young boys Ethan and Mattityahu or you can call him Matthew.  We live in Louisiana and soon one day to be in our home Land Israel.  I enjoy the fellowship at Roots of Faith and look forward to meeting you all.

Blessings

Rick


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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 25 11:03:46 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:03:46 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Late Introduction
In-Reply-To: <869899.85655.qm@web1009.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <869899.85655.qm@web1009.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W8D9E0AF4A2A61E885F020BA740@phx.gbl>


Terrific, Rick!  How wonderful to get to know you!  I hope you post a photo of your entire family on the site.  When I saw your name here in your Introduction, I immediately went to the site to locate your photo.  Now I want to see Rita, Etan and Mattisyahu!  This is so much fun!
 
Love,
 
Pat/Avigail


Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:17:03 -0800From: info at poweredbyhadavar.comSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Late IntroductionTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org




Shalom to all!  This is a late introduction to the rest of the group also. Real quick, I am Rick Gozhanskij (Levi Ben-Yisrael) and my wife is Rita.  We have two young boys Ethan and Mattityahu or you can call him Matthew.  We live in Louisiana and soon one day to be in our home Land Israel.  I enjoy the fellowship at Roots of Faith and look forward to meeting you all.BlessingsRick
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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Sun Nov 25 11:29:35 2007
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:29:35 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] time magazine article
Message-ID: <008a01c82f88$bfc5d410$6400a8c0@davesbook>

Up on reading the Dec. issue of Time, the article 'Jerusalem Divided'.  I find it interesting that the place that people of different faiths co-exist is at the zoo!  I can't help but think of Isa.  11:6......... 

let me get back to the article 
dave
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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Sun Nov 25 11:40:06 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:40:06 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Book Not to be Missed
In-Reply-To: <08C4F83C-D6EA-4DBD-A366-F4CE12B7E072@earthlink.net>
References: <08C4F83C-D6EA-4DBD-A366-F4CE12B7E072@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8C9FDA15A4BEB17-E58-18C4@Webmail-mg20.sysops.aol.com>


Hi James - 



??? Thanks for the heads up - I have read several of R' Sacks' books, and have been impressed with all of them.? He's an exceptionally deep thinker, and writes extremely well.? I've read "Dignity of Difference: How to Avoid the Clash of Civilizations," and his commentary on the Passover Haggadah.??

????In addition, I have read two of his more academic books: "Arguments for the Sake of Heaven: Emerging Trends in Traditional Judaism," and "One People?" which are both very thought provoking.? I'm looking forward to picking up a copy of this latest one, too.? There's always room for another book, right?

???? Best regards,

???????????????????Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
To: ui at mcarr.us; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:08 am
Subject: [Dialogue] A Book Not to be Missed



Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, chief rabbi of Britain, is known to many of you, either from his books and writings or otherwise. I believe J. David Davis had the?privilege?of meeting him some years ago. Anyway, I received this review of his new book, written by the famous academic scholar Jacob Neusner, and it was so flattering and positive I immediately ordered the book. It sounds to me like this book, and the way in which he builds his story around three "parables," is truly?quintessential?to capturing the essence of the Jewish understanding of "fixing the world," and the ways in which Torah is vital to this task. I wanted to pass on the review and hope that others will obtain and read it. It should be in bookstores.



James Tabor




+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




A Review of by Prof. Jacob Neusner







Jonathan Sacks,?The Home We Build Together: Recreating Society.?London and New York 2007: Continuum. ?16.99.

???Chief Rabbi of Britain Jonathan Sacks is the premier public intellectual of Judaism in the English speaking world and has no obvious counterpart in the communities of Judaism conducted in other languages. No one in Israeli intellectual life competes. As a social philosopher he succeeds Martin Buber (Jerusalem) and Abraham Heschel (New York). He brings a first-class analytical mind to the problems of contemporary society and culture and draws on the entire Western tradition of social and political thought as he systematically solves those problems. He engages in dialogue with the political thought of the West and contributes a particularly Judaic perspective to the conversation. He embodies all that Judaism has to offer to the solution of the contemporary social crisis of culture: the collapse of Europe.
???The problem he addresses here is the multi-cultural dilemma, which affirmed the right of ethnic and religious minorities to be different but led to self-segregation:

???Multiculturalism has led not to integration but to segregation. It has allowed groups to live separately, with no incentive to integrate?It was intended to promote tolerance. Instead, the result has been?societies more abrasive, fractured, and intolerant than they once were.

???But he sees multiculturalism as a symptom of the "social breakdown in liberal democracies," the collapse of the family, the shattering of political consensus, the decay of culture, including civility and good manners. He does more than lament, he proposes a way forward: "society building:" "We need to reinvigorate the concept of the common good." He holds that "culture is fragmenting into non-communicating systems of belief in which civil discourse ends and reasoned argument becomes impossible."?
???The book is in three parts. First Sacks describes the origins of the crisis: "the loss of moral consensus, the impact of technology on culture, the failure of national self-confidence, the breakdown of the family, and the inward turn from society to community." His account entails three parables:

???In the first, a hundred strangers have been wandering around the countryside in search of a place to stay. They arrive at the gate of a large country house. The owner comes to the gate?

And welcomes the strangers as guests. The strangers remain guests: society is a country house.

???The second: a hundred strangers in search of a home find themselves in the middle of a big city. There they find a hotel?they book their rooms, unpack, and stay.

It remains a place where everyone is?a stranger and sojourner. That is society as hotel.

???Third: a hundred strangers arrive at a town?they are met by the mayor?"We have a patch of empty land?We will help you build there?let us do this together?They invest their energies in what they build. Their relationship with the place is not purely contractual. They helped build it, it is of their making. What we build embodies something of us. At the same time the people of the town have made it clear that the houses they build must be ? congruent with the architectural character of the town as it is. So the homes they build are recognizably of the place where they are, not the place they have come from?They have the sense of being part of a team?that is society as the home we build together.

???This parable prepares the way for the second and third parts of the book. In the second part Sacks sketches "the rudiments of a theory of society building," and in the third he proposes how to strengthen civic nationalism, "the identity that comes not from color or creed but from the fact that?we come together to build something larger than any of our groups could achieve alone. Society is "the home we build together."
Part one of the book, "how did we get here," covers these topics: society as country house, note, or home; a brief history of multiculturalism, the defeat of freedom in the name of freedom, victims, technology and the fragmentation of culture, the inward turn. Part two is devoted to a theory of society creation: social contract, social covenant, telling the story, the responsible society, the home we build together. Part Three, "where next," covers these topics: the uses of covenant, who am I, face-to-fact, side-by-side, civility, multi-culturalism or tolerance, mending the broken family, a religious defense of liberal democracy, a time to build.
???The key conception of Sacks?s account, which runs through the book, is the theme of covenant. He distinguishes between state and society, law and free association, social contract and social. covenant. The social contract,?

which creates the state, is between individuals and the body to which they delegate power. That is the political domain. It has two places?the individual and the state. But there is a different domain?civil society. Here relationships are covenantal, not contractual. They have nothing to do with the market or the state?they are voluntary associations?

???Sacks speaks of Britain, but his observations encompass the USA as well, and he draws generously upon the American political tradition. He finds much to admire in the American amalgam of deep religiosity in the private domain joined with the separation of church and state, in the American resort to religious rhetoric on public occasions, and in the American tradition of cultural diversity joined with political unity. His heroes include not only Locke but Jefferson, Madison, Lincoln, Kennedy, de Tocqueville and Cr?vecoeur. Judaism?s social thought plays a modest outward part in the exposition, but it forms the entire foundation on which he builds.
???This book joins with its predecessors ?including?One People? ?Tradition, Modernity, and Jewish Unity?(1993); ?Faith in the Future?(1995);?Radical Then, Radical Now. The Legacy of the World?s Oldest Religion?(2001),?The Dignity of Difference?(2004) ? to form an oeuvre of moral authority and compelling logic. For a corpus of writing substantially less ambitious than this some have received the Nobel Prize.

--

Jacob Neusner

Distinguished Service Professor of the History and Theology of Judaism
Senior Fellow, Institute of Advanced Theology
Bard College
Annandale-on-Hudson, New York 12504

= 


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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Sun Nov 25 11:58:58 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:58:58 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Most Sobering New Story
In-Reply-To: <bba.22604306.347ae668@aol.com>
References: <bba.22604306.347ae668@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C9FDA3FC891543-E58-1947@Webmail-mg20.sysops.aol.com>

Hey Ross - 

??? I just read your note, you did a great job with it....may it touch people's hearts to raise THEIR voices (those out loud, and those from their hearts..) to shake the heavens.? May HaShem save us from our?chosen "leadership" (both in Israel and the U.S.), not based on our merit, but for the sake of HIS name....for the sake of HIS land....

?? As the prophet Isaiah wrote (ironically in the Haftara that I first said when I became a Bar Mitzva. although its significance aluded me all those years ago..)): "For Zion's sake I will not hold My peace, And for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest...."

??? And a little further down, "And I looked , and there was none to help, And I beheld in Astonishment, and there was none to uphold; Therefore Mine own arm brought salvation unto Me...."

??? There is no one to help us, certainly not the American government who is orchestrating this whole thing.? No one but Avinu Malkenu...Our Father Our King.? May he pity us and save us from this insanity....
??????????????? Hanoch



-----Original Message-----
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 9:53 am
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Most Sobering New Story





In a message dated 11/25/2007 8:49:33 A.M. Central Standard Time, patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com writes:

Hanoch, as always, your words touch my heart, dear brother Judah.? May this evil decree be averted.? And may we all pray?for the peace of Jerusalem as commanded?in Psalm 122:6:? "Sha-alu shalom yerushalayim."
?
Pat/Abigail




I will be sending out a note later that I hope we can distribute far and wide urging people to join in an international prayer against this vain thing that the nations imagine.? We have people literally all over the world that are joining our ranks. It is a small group at this point, but strategically "scattered".

?

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org






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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 25 12:24:10 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:24:10 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] time magazine article
In-Reply-To: <008a01c82f88$bfc5d410$6400a8c0@davesbook>
References: <008a01c82f88$bfc5d410$6400a8c0@davesbook>
Message-ID: <91DCD22E-7B87-41F1-B8A1-F71074F05738@earthlink.net>

David,

I was just reading the same issue. I thought it was a good article,  
basically making the point that most Arabs in East Jerusalem would  
like to see some of the restrictions removed but would fear to have  
their own in control. The Christian Arabs, who are considerable in and  
around the Mt of Olives, feel the same. The Israeli has established  
order, a common currency, court systems for crime, and allowed all  
faiths access to all the holy places. It is actually safe for a  
single, young, attractive female to walk in the Old City long after  
dark, even alone.

Take care, good week,

James


On Nov 25, 2007, at 12:29 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

> Up on reading the Dec. issue of Time, the article 'Jerusalem  
> Divided'.  I find it interesting that the place that people of  
> different faiths co-exist is at the zoo!  I can't help but think of  
> Isa.  11:6.........
>
> let me get back to the article
> dave
> _______________________________________________

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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Sun Nov 25 12:44:08 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:44:08 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] "American Folly"
Message-ID: <8C9FDAA4C58E7BF-F1C-39E@MBLK-M15.sysops.aol.com>


Column One: American folly
Caroline Glick, THE JERUSALEM POST
November 23, 2007


The mood is dark in the IDF's General Staff ahead of next week's "peace" conference in Annapolis. As one senior officer directly involved in the negotiations with the Palestinians and the Americans said, "As bad as it might look from the outside, the truth is 10 times worse. This is a nightmare. The Americans have never been so hostile." 

On Thursday a draft of the joint statement that Israeli and Palestinian negotiators are discussing ahead of the conference was leaked to the media. A reading of the document bears out the IDF's concerns. 

The draft document shows that the Palestinians and the Israelis differ not only on every issue, but differ on the purpose of the document. It also shows that the US firmly backs the Palestinians against Israel. 

As the draft document makes clear, Israel is trying to avoid committing itself to anything at Annapolis. For their part, the Palestinians are trying to force Israel's hand by tying it to diplomatic formulas that presuppose an Israeli withdrawal to the 1949 armistice lines and an Israeli acceptance of the so-called "right of return" or free immigration of foreign Arabs to Israel. 

The Palestinians are also trying to take away Israel's right to determine for itself whether to trust the Palestinians and continue making diplomatic and security concessions or not by making it the responsibility of outside parties to decide the pace of the concessions and whether or not the Palestinians should be trusted. 

As the leaked draft document shows, the Americans have sided with the Palestinians against Israel. Specifically, the Americans have taken for themselves the sole right to judge whether or not the Palestinians and the Israelis are abiding by their commitments and whether and at what pace the negotiations will proceed. 

But the Americans have shown themselves to be unworthy of Israel's trust. By refusing to acknowledge Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party's direct involvement in terrorism and indeed the direct involvement of his official Fatah "security forces" in terrorism, the Americans have shown that their benchmarks for Palestinian compliance with their commitments to Israel are not necessarily based on the reality on the ground. Then too, the US demands for wide-ranging Israeli security concessions to the Palestinians even before the "peace" conference at Annapolis have shown that Israel's security is of little concern to the State Department. 

IDF sources blame the shooting murder of Ido Zoldan on Monday night by Fatah terrorists on Israel's decision to bow to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's demand to take down 24 security roadblocks in Judea and Samaria. If it hadn't been for US pressure, they say, it is quite possible that the 29-year-old father of two small children would be alive today. 

But this is of no concern for Washington. As Rice has made clear repeatedly, the US wants to see "signs of progress." Since the Palestinians are taking no action against terror and doing nothing to lessen their society's jihadist fervor, the only way to achieve "signs of progress" is by forcing Israel to make concessions to the Palestinians. And so that is exactly what Rice and her associates are doing. 

Rice is able to force Israel to accept her demands because she faces the weakest Israeli leaders the country has ever produced. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Defense Minister Ehud Barak are all incapable of standing up to the Americans or even arguing with them. Olmert's and Livni's weakness has been apparent since their mishandling of the war with Hizbullah last summer and their negotiations over the cease-ire agreement with Rice. For his part, throughout his brief and disastrous tenure as prime minister, Barak behaved as though he were then president Bill Clinton's employee. 

BUT IF Olmert's, Livni's and Barak's willingness to compromise their nation's security is a function of their weakness, what explains Rice's and Bush's behavior? Why are they weakening Israel and pushing for the establishment of yet another Middle Eastern terror state? What US interest do they think they are advancing by acting as they are? Over the past several weeks, a number of theories have been raised to explain their behavior. The most frequent explanation is that Rice and Bush are championing Palestinian statehood at Israel's expense in a bid to mobilize a coalition of Sunni Arab states to cooperate with the US against Iran. 

According to this theory, if Annapolis is seen as a success, then the Arab states will be convinced that the US is worth supporting on Iran. This theory has several flaws. First, as the US's treatment of Israel makes clear, success in Annapolis involves weakening Israel whose destruction Iran seeks and empowering the Palestinians whom Iran supports. This means that far from weakening Iran, success at Annapolis advances Iran's interests. 

But beyond that, whether wittingly or unwittingly, by convening the conference next week, the Bush administration has directly empowered Iran. Today the determination of whether the administration emerges unscathed or humiliated from Annapolis is entirely in Iran's hands. Iran will decide whether the conference opens and closes peacefully or whether it is convened as Lebanon is submerged in civil war by Iran's proxies Syria and Hizbullah. 

According to the Lebanese constitution, Saturday is the last day on which a new Lebanese president can be elected. Lebanon's president must be elected by two-thirds of the members of Lebanon's parliament. Through their campaign of assassination, Syria and Hizbullah have taken away the two-thirds majority that anti-Syrian forces won in the 2005 elections. As a result, Hizbullah has veto power over the election. And so far, Iran and Syria have refused to allow Hizbullah to back any candidate. This is the case despite the anti-Syrian majority's willingness to support a pro-Syrian presidential candidate. 

Due to the Iranian-Syrian induced impasse, today there are two possible scenarios for what may happen in the next few days in Lebanon. Either Iran and Syria will allow elections to take place and an agent of their regimes and Hizbullah will take over the presidency, or elections will not take place and two governments - one anti-Syrian under Prime Minister Fuad Siniora and one pro-Syrian - will be formed. The pro-Syrian government will be supported by Hizbullah and the Lebanese army. The anti-Syrian government will be supported by Christian, Sunni and Druse militias. A civil war will ensue. Syria, Hizbullah and Iran will win. 

In a bid to induce the first scenario, Bush has been lobbying every leader he can think of to appeal to Teheran and Damascus to relent and allow elections to go through. To this end, he even asked their primary arms supplier Russian President Vladimir Putin to intervene. Olmert's decision to allow Fatah security forces to receive 25 advanced Russian armored personnel carriers in spite of IDF objections was no doubt a consequence of Bush's appeal to Putin for help. 

If the Americans believe the key to countering Iran is to build an anti-Iranian Arab coalition, the crisis in Lebanon shows just how futile their efforts are. Just as the Sunni Arab states oppose Iran acquiring nuclear weapons, so they oppose Iranian control over Lebanon. Yet in spite of this, they have done nothing to prevent Iran and its proxies from taking control of the country. To the contrary, the Saudis have encouraged the Siniora government to support pro-Syrian candidates for the presidency. 

So if the administration has decided to embrace the Palestinians as a means of weakening Iran, its decision is wrong on three counts. First, given Iran's support for the Palestinians, empowering them against Israel simply advances Iran's interest. Second, the Annapolis conference has become a hostage of Iranian goodwill which is non-existent. And finally, even if it were formed, an anti-Iranian Arab coalition would be powerless to check Iran's power. 

EVEN THOUGH the summit at Annapolis weakens the US's position vis-?-vis Iran, it might still make sense for Bush and Rice to support Palestinian statehood if doing so enhanced public support for the administration. But the opposite is occurring. Bush's and Rice's seeming obsession with Palestinian statehood is being criticized from all sides of the aisle. 

Critics on the left like New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman and former Clinton negotiator and Palestinian apologist Robert Malley have expressed mystification at the administration's insistent advance of negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians when there is no chance that those negotiations will bring peace. So too, over the past few weeks, four Republican presidential candidates - Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, John McCain and Fred Thompson - have criticized Bush's and Rice's Palestinian policies generally and the convening of the conference at Annapolis in particular. 

There is also the theory that the pair's primary concern in pushing for Palestinian statehood is their legacies. Rice's stated intention of seeing a Palestinian state declared before Bush leaves office lends weight to this view. But of course, given that the maximum that Israel is willing to concede to the Palestinians is less than the minimum that the Palestinians are willing to accept, and given that the Olmert government will be brought down if Olmert agrees to any major concessions, it is clear that there is no chance that Rice will succeed. 

Finally there is the thought that Rice and Bush understand that there is no chance of achieving peace, but that they think that their legacies will be strengthened just for having tried. After all, Bill Clinton is remembered well for his attempts to achieve peace between Israel and the Palestinians in spite of the fact that his attempts brought war rather than peace. But Clinton's example is no longer applicable because the conditions under which Clinton pursued peace were far different than those that exist today. 

Clinton's peace policies caused a war that began only at the end of his presidency. Until then, they seemed like relatively safe and cost-free moves. On the other hand, Bush's presidency has occurred in its entirety against the backdrop of the Palestinian jihad. Every attempt he has made at peacemaking, from the Tenet Plan through the road map and Sharm e-Sheikh and onto Annapolis, has been blown apart through violence before it could get off the ground. 

So then there is no good excuse for the Bush administration's decision to embrace the Palestinians at Israel's expense. It all comes down to Bush and Rice not thinking through the consequences of their moves. 

It is a singular tragedy that Israel's elected leaders are too weak to make them understand that by harming Israel, they are harming the United States and making fools of themselves.



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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 25 12:54:32 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:54:32 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Annapolis Meeting
Message-ID: <44A67937-EEE9-44E4-8115-860CBD8BE784@earthlink.net>

The Annapolis Middle East Conference is worth watching, and on a  
symbolic level, with the 60 years from November, 1947, it surely  
signals something, but I seriously doubt it will result in anything  
that we need to particularly worry about at this point. See the  
article from this morning's WashPost below. On the other hand, maybe  
this meeting will do a lot to unite and rally many of us who have  
watched helplessly as Olmert has made his moves over the past two  
years. I do not think there is any way that the Israelis will agree to  
handing over Jerusalem, so as the Prophets say, YHVH has made  
Jerusalem a "heavy stone" for all the peoples, and those who try to  
lift it will seriously hurt themselves. Zech 12 does indeed lead to  
Zech 14, but we are not there yet. Notice Zech 12:6 seems to be an  
incredible description of the five Israeli wars...

James Tabor

++++++++++++++++++++

Analysis: Summit Holds Risks for Bush
By TOM RAUM
The Associated Press
Sunday, November 25, 2007; 7:02 AM


WASHINGTON -- President Bush, who has avoided playing much of a role  
in the Middle East peace process, is now gambling that the time is  
right for progress in the troubled region. But the risks are high, and  
the odds for success seem long.

The planned three-day conference in Annapolis, Md., and Washington  
this week comes with just 14 months left in Bush's term and his legacy  
tarnished by the war in Iraq.

Pushing for an Israeli-Palestinian peace has preoccupied more than one  
U.S. president. President Clinton made it a top agenda item in the  
closing days of his presidency. But with the notable exception of  
President Carter, whose Camp David sessions in 1978 led to a peace  
treaty the following year between Israel and Egypt, presidential  
Mideast peacemaking has fizzled.

The U.S.-sponsored peace conference _ first proposed by Bush last July  
_ is designed to build momentum toward the resumption of Israeli- 
Palestinian peace talks, suspended for the past seven years. The idea  
is to eventually establish a Palestinian state. Bush called on  
moderate Arab states to take an active part in promoting negotiations  
that could lead to "a final peace in the Middle East."

"The president will say that the Annapolis conference will signal  
broad international support for the leaders' courageous efforts, which  
will help provide for meaningful progress toward a just and lasting  
negotiated settlement to this conflict, and ultimately a comprehensive  
peace in the Middle East," White House press secretary Dana Perino  
said Saturday.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice insists the sessions will be  
"serious and substantive." Standing next to Palestinian President  
Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank this month, Rice said, "We frankly have  
better things to do than invite people to Annapolis for a photo op."

But chances for any breakthrough pointing toward that "final peace"  
seem slight. The two sides are far apart on many issues, and the  
Palestinians themselves are divided. The coastal Gaza Strip is under  
rule of militant Islamic Hamas and the West Bank is controlled by the  
moderate Abbas.

"For both Bush and Rice, it's a bit of a long shot. And there is a bit  
of image-making there, especially since the president promised in May  
2003 that he was going to give this the same attention he was giving  
Iraq," said David Mack, who was deputy assistant secretary of state  
for Near Eastern affairs in the first Bush administration.

"But there is also some serious substance here: a conjunction of  
desire by both Abbas and (Israeli Prime Minister Ehud) Olmert to show  
some progress," said Mack, the vice president of the Middle East  
Institute, a nonpartisan think tank.

It might seem that Bush and Rice have little to lose in forging ahead  
with the conference, given the president's low approval ratings and  
the unpopularity of the war in Iraq.

Still, pressure has been building on the White House to produce real  
achievements _ or see the conference idea backfire.

The stakes for the session increased Friday when Saudi Arabia and  
other Arab states agreed to attend the conference. Egypt, Jordan and  
the Palestinians had already accepted the U.S. invitations.

Saudi Arabia is the most powerful Sunni Arab state that has not made  
peace with Israel and is a longtime U.S. ally. King Abdullah also is  
the author of a dormant peace plan that the Bush administration has  
partly embraced.

Syria, whose government is at odds with the United States, was also on  
the U.S. invitation list to Arab and Muslim countries _ although it  
had not accepted. Iran was not invited.

Failure to achieve concrete results would have "devastating  
consequences in the region and beyond," a bipartisan group of foreign  
policy luminaries said. They include former White House national  
security advisers Zbigniew Brzezinski and Brent Scowcroft, former  
House International Relations Committee chairman Lee Hamilton and  
former diplomats Thomas Pickering and Carla Hills.

"The outcome of the conference must be substantive, inclusive and  
relevant to the daily lives of Israelis and Palestinians," they wrote  
Bush and Rice last month.

Shibley Telhami, a Mideast scholar at the University of Maryland,  
agreed. "It would be a disaster if we fail. People know that, if this  
initiative is aimed to bolster the Arab moderates, and they fail after  
raising expectations so high, then Hamas wins without lifting a finger."

Dennis Ross, a former U.S. peace envoy and assistant secretary of  
state during the terms of the first President Bush and Clinton, has  
urged Rice to change her goals and focus on finding a formula that  
will help Abbas persuade his people that he is capable of achieving  
Palestinian national aspirations, while Hamas is offering only failure.

Some Mideast analysts have questioned the amount of effort Bush will  
personally expend on trying to get long-suspended Israeli-Palestinian  
peace talks back on track. "If you listen to the administration in  
terms of what their priorities are in the Middle East _ aside from  
Iraq _ you would gather that the confrontation with Iran and worries  
about Iran's nuclear capability are the most important priority," said  
Telhami.

Jon Alterman, director of the Middle East program at the Center for  
Strategic and International Studies, said at this point the conference  
is clearly Rice's production. "It's her show. Bush is not the person  
convening it, not the person working the phones and twisting the arms."

He doesn't expect much to come from the conference. "It doesn't feel  
like the stars are aligned for this," Alterman said.

Even Rice has said that more important than the conference is what  
follows.

The inability of U.S. presidents other than Carter to successfully  
broker peace deals says more about the Middle East than it does about  
the presidents, said Leo Ribuffo, a presidential historian at George  
Washington University.

"Under the best of circumstances, it's very, very difficult. And Bush  
has been a lot less involved than Clinton and Carter. For Carter, it  
was an absolute central concern, and one he considered his major  
accomplishment," said Ribuffo. "Even so, it cost him a lot of  
political support."

Still, Princeton political scientist Fred Greenstein said, Bush "is  
down so low, there's hardly any reason for him to be cautious. It  
would be nice for him to be able to point to one genuine foreign  
policy success _ to harpoon the great white whale."

___

EDITOR'S NOTE _ Tom Raum has covered national and international  
affairs for The Associated Press since 1973.


From psalmist7 at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 20 09:53:43 2007
From: psalmist7 at earthlink.net (ArizonaKathy)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:53:43 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] instant messeging
References: <112020071525.24615.4742FC620003430C0000602722230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <000001c82fb0$12c3a3a0$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>

would this include pallyworld  aka paltalk.   I've had too many crashes with the other chat providers such as yahoo.

kc
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From rndavar at aol.com  Sun Nov 25 17:42:41 2007
From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:42:41 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Web site
Message-ID: <8C9FDD4012F0D94-CF4-20C9@webmail-mf06.sysops.aol.com>

I just uploaded a couple more pictures.? Denny and Mary Joyce, Dan and Denise all from Minnesota, and Pat. I can't remember where you are Pat!? Remind me.

Shalom, Ross
________________________________________________________________________
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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Sun Nov 25 18:22:25 2007
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:22:25 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] instant messeging
References: <112020071525.24615.4742FC620003430C0000602722230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<000001c82fb0$12c3a3a0$6401a8c0@kathy37b9a1496>
Message-ID: <001901c82fc2$6bdc9c00$6400a8c0@davesbook>

Hey Kathy,

yes Paltalk will work if you have that program installed.    Our nickname(username) is askrootsoffaith.  Let us know if we can help.  And Welcome to Roots of Faith.  


dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ArizonaKathy 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:53 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] instant messeging


  would this include pallyworld  aka paltalk.   I've had too many crashes with the other chat providers such as yahoo.

  kc


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sun Nov 25 19:32:24 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:32:24 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - Debate: Rabbi Meir Kahane Vs. Ehud
	Olmert
Message-ID: <c1d.28c40f5b.347b7c28@aol.com>

Shalom to all,
 
    The Youtube link below has a short, fascinating debate (more then 20 
years ago!) between Rav Meir Kahane (May HaShem avenge his blood), and Ehud 
Olmert, who was then a member of the (so-called) "right wing" Likud party.  Watch 
it...
                      Hanoch
 
_Click here: YouTube - Debate: Rabbi Meir Kahane Vs. Ehud Olmert_ 
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0v1To8B4_A)  



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sun Nov 25 19:53:06 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:53:06 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
Message-ID: <bdc.1c91381a.347b8102@aol.com>

Shalom to all - 
 
    The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks 
to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over 
Israel's borders.  With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing. 
 Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly 
donuts.....
 
    For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our 
nation.  Please check it out, and spread the word...
            Hanoch
_Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot & Cold Soup for our Israeli 
Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!!_ (http://pizzaidf.org/)  



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com  Sun Nov 25 20:02:07 2007
From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:02:07 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
Message-ID: <CAFFEC80641E3E4183BF90B0E461D6AC0574B149@msgcpla090.srv.gapac.com>

I hope that Hanoch will write a short introduction to the list. He is an orthodox Jewish friend of mine and truly one of my brothers. He is a lover of Israel and has been instrumental in my own quest for truth. We have known each other for probably 15 years. Welcome to the list Hanoch! It makes me smile to see you active in this group of non-Jews. Zechariah 8:23

Are you ready to pray? Tell the girls I said hello!

Ross

----- Original Message -----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
To: ui at mcarr.us <ui at mcarr.us>
Cc: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Sun Nov 25 19:53:06 2007
Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers

Shalom to all - 
 
    The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over Israel's borders.  With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.  Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....
 
    For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our nation.  Please check it out, and spread the word...
            Hanoch
Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot  <http://pizzaidf.org/> & Cold Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! 



  _____  

Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products <http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001>  and top money wasters <http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop00030000000002>  of 2007.


From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Sun Nov 25 20:18:43 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:18:43 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
In-Reply-To: <CAFFEC80641E3E4183BF90B0E461D6AC0574B149@msgcpla090.srv.gapac.com>
Message-ID: <20071125211843.FC27M.230799.root@mp20>

Hanoch,

Thank you for the site.  This is a great idea.

Kim
---- "Nichols wrote: 

=============
I hope that Hanoch will write a short introduction to the list. He is an orthodox Jewish friend of mine and truly one of my brothers. He is a lover of Israel and has been instrumental in my own quest for truth. We have known each other for probably 15 years. Welcome to the list Hanoch! It makes me smile to see you active in this group of non-Jews. Zechariah 8:23

Are you ready to pray? Tell the girls I said hello!

Ross

----- Original Message -----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
To: ui at mcarr.us <ui at mcarr.us>
Cc: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Sun Nov 25 19:53:06 2007
Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers

Shalom to all - 
 
    The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over Israel's borders.  With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.  Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....
 
    For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our nation.  Please check it out, and spread the word...
            Hanoch
Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot  <http://pizzaidf.org/> & Cold Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! 



  _____  

Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products <http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001>  and top money wasters <http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop00030000000002>  of 2007.




From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sun Nov 25 13:16:39 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:16:39 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] House Joint Resolution 131
Message-ID: <c67.21085a9c.347b2417@aol.com>



Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sun Nov 25 20:33:03 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:33:03 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
Message-ID: <c41.23382ab3.347b8a5f@aol.com>

Hey Kim - 
 
    Thanks very much for your note - I try to pass along things that I think 
people might not otherwise see.  Glad you found it useful!
 
    Best regards,
            Hanoch



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 25 20:56:31 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:56:31 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Web site
In-Reply-To: <8C9FDD4012F0D94-CF4-20C9@webmail-mf06.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C9FDD4012F0D94-CF4-20C9@webmail-mf06.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W24F859DAF867C08F234C4EBA750@phx.gbl>


Hi Ross,
 
I'm a Texan, but living in GA.
 
Pat


To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:42:41 -0500From: rndavar at aol.comSubject: [Dialogue] Web siteI just uploaded a couple more pictures.  Denny and Mary Joyce, Dan and Denise all from Minnesota, and Pat. I can't remember where you are Pat!  Remind me.Shalom, Ross 


Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov 25 21:42:08 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 03:42:08 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls
Message-ID: <112620070342.17790.474A4088000BEA7E0000457E22228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Denny,

Just catching up on emails myself.  Of course we will pray for your family.  You have much to deal with, I will pray for strength and wisdom.

Saw your photo on the web site, good to put faces to the names.

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com>: -------------- 

Hi Betty,


Thanks for the warm welcome and how interesting that our paths come from the same roots. We are back now from our family Thanksgiving. We had a wonderful time with them all. There were 104 at the Thanksgiving dinner which was held in the Church of Christ building right next door to Mary Joyce's mother. Like your family there are preachers, teachers, missionaries, elders and worship leaders all throughout the family and the typical conversation was about how the various churches are doing. Any growth, etc/. etc. Lots of fun talk, too, about the families and lots of grandkids there. Such good people.


Mady is doing great. But when we got home an email had just come in from our daughter up in Duluth. They were supposed to go with us this weekend but her girls had chicken pox so they had to stay home. Well, they emailed us to tell us that her husband's father was found dead in his basement today. Steve had just talked to him on Thursday and everything was fine. This morning, Steve's mom found her husband at the foot of the basement stairs in a pool of blood. He had been dead for awhile and was quite blue. They are doing an autopsy to see what happened. We know Ken and his wife Barb. Ken is may age, 55. Much too young. I just got off the phone with Steve to see how he and his family are doing. Steve is still kind of in shock. He requested that we pray for his mother, Barb. They just lost Ken's father 2 months ago. Now Barb and another family member are driving up to  break the hard news to her that she has now lost her son, too. So,....I know this is right on the heels of our last 
major concern for Mady, but please pray for Barb, our daughter Julie, and husband Steve and the family. This has been a very strange year for our circle of friends. Even in our sabbath fellowship circle we have lost 2 parents in the last 2 months. We have no guarantees in this life other than our Father will be with us in it all. Bless His Name!


Thanks in advance. Now, I will start reading all the other postings to this dialogue list and try to keep on track with the subject(s) being discussed.


Shalom,
Denny




On Nov 21, 2007, at 5:44 PM, Betty Givin wrote:


Dennis,
 
Having known Ross, Joe and Brian for nearly two decades, I can vouch for their integrity.  It was thru Joe and Hatikvah Ministries in the late 1980?s that my husband, Roger, and I met Brian and Ross and where we began searching for the ?roots of our faith,? which led us back to the Ancient Paths and a love for G-d, Torah and Israel.  We will be forever indebted to Joe and his ministry and to people like Brian and Ross and many more friends that we have met along the way and grown to love as family.  It is so good to see this new ?surge? coming out of Louisiana, and such a blessing that we have the internet fellowship. It is so good to have you and Mary Joyce with us all and to see that your support is so solidly based.
 
In an earlier email, when I told you that Roger and I had spent a lot of time in Minnesota the past few years, you said you were from Fridley, and were living in the house that had belonged to your parents and that you were block captain of your street.  We are very familiar with Fridley as we worked claims up there.  It must be so nice to have deep roots like that.  Growing up as an Air Force ?brat,? we moved every few years.  I actually went to 4 different high schools.  My traveling didn?t come to an end as my first husband was a Church of Christ preacher.  My second and present husband, Roger, was an insurance catastrophe adjuster, so my travels continued up until this year.  I have had to place my roots in HaShem and in my faith, and for that I am so immensely grateful.
 
 I will certainly be praying for the two of you and your family this Thanksgiving holiday.  My brother, James, and I were brought up in the Church of Christ, we can certainly relate.  Practically all the members of Dad?s family were either preachers, teachers, elders, deacons, song leaders; and like your wife?s family, great people. I just don?t think they have ever been in a place to have seriously questioned their faith; and as you well know, once the questioning starts, and you find a multitude of gaps, there is really no going back.  Hopefully you will be able to enjoy Thanksgiving together as family and enjoy the love that binds you together.
 
Happy Thanksgiving and Shalom,
 
Betty/Elisheva
 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Nichols, Ross K.
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:42 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls
 
 
Subject: Fwd: Re: Roots of Faith - A Synagogue Without Walls
 
Ross and growing gang,
 
As I type this email, I am listening to Ross and Joe's video conversation. Isn't technology amazing? The ability to time-shift and be able to, from long distances, be able to participate in things like this. But it all takes work and money. I just want to again, thank Ross, Joe, Brian, and the Roots of Faith congregation for making this all possible. It is going to be exciting to watch this grow. Now I can honestly say to questioning friends that we have a fellowship. How convenient in these days of high gas prices that we can sit in the comfort of our homes and participate in such a cool fellowship. I would make this suggestion. That we all take what we would normally spend in gas to drive to an assembly and dedicate it to this ministry to help Roots of Faith defray the costs of equipment, software, phone lines, internet costs, etc. to help this ministry to remain and grow. I have had some conversations with Ross about these things and I am convinced that he is a man of great inte
grity and he speaks so highly of Joe and of Brian (who has dedicated his life to serving in many capacities that make this possible). These guys can be trusted, of that I am convinced. I believe the time has come for me to stand with them and their Biblical vision. My wife and I have decided that we will be making regular investments in this ministry.
 
May Hashem bless His word as it goes forth!
 
We will be traveling to Mary Joyce's family Thanksgiving this afternoon to southern Iowa. While there we will have no internet connection so we will miss any conversation and the service on Saturday. Our youngest son and his family will be traveling with us, however, and we will have some great conversations. Justin attends Beth Immanuel in Hudson, WI where he lives. Beth Immanuel is where D. Thomas Lancaster teaches. As we go to this Thanksgiving gathering of over 100 relatives who are in the Church of Christ, we as non trinitarians may be challenged this weekend. Pray for us, that we would be gracious and wise in our responses. Hopefully, no one will make anything of it and we can just enjoy the fellowship. They are all good people and we love them. They, in their own way, desire restoration. They just haven't gone far enough.
 
Happy Thanksgiving to you all. May your time with family be rich with memories.
 
Shalom,
Denny and Mary Joyce
 
 
On Nov 20, 2007, at 11:40 PM, Roots of Faith wrote:
 
Shalom from the synagogue without walls.  I am sitting in the synagogue typing this note and thinking about all that is going on. I am in awe at how things are progressing. It tells me that people are searching for a better understanding of the Bible, and that they want to share their thoughts with others. To that end, we have set up some things to enable the sharing of ideas.

We now have a "discussion list". I described this in my last note, so if you are new to this distribution you can go to my web site and see if it interests you.  (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/About_Dialogue.htm) 

I also recently made some changes to my splash page at www.rootsoffaith.org. I made some quick links to some of the more popular places on my web site including the Blog where all of our weekly services are published as podcasts, the Dialogue list, and the Listen Live link.  I think this will make it easier to get where you want to go.

The class from this past Sabbath has been found! I thought that I had lost it, but tonight I discovered it hidden away as a result of a filing mistake on my part.  It has been edited and is up now for your listening pleasure...or at least for your listening (the pleasure part is more a matter of taste).

I also posted another song from the HacVShema album.  This one is Glenn Chatterton's, Offering of Love.  These guys are becoming quite popular.  I hope they stay with me.  I am kinda getting to like them.  I pray that they at least remember me when they make it big:) 

I spent this past Sunday with Joseph Good of Hatikva Ministries. I drove to his place and filmed 4 weeks of shows on the Lost Tribes of Israel. This was quite an experience for me. First because I can say that it was his ministry that brought me to an awareness of the Hebraic Roots of Christianity now nearly 2 decades ago. I consider him to be one of the pioneers of this movement and so it was an honor to work with him. Even though I had never done video production, he made me feel very relaxed and I think that it went well. You be the judge as the first of this 4 week series will be available for viewing on Wednesday, November 21st. I encourage you to send me some feedback.  Please be kind as this was new for me.  I may have had that deer in the headlights look at the beginning. He and his wife Debbie are great friends and I appreciate them.  Go to the Universal Torah Network on Wednesday to view the show.

Be sure and catch the service live this coming Sabbath.  Go to my site and click on the listen live link to join us.

Thanks for your prayers, good wishes and support.

Love and shalom, Ross
Click here to unsubscribe
 
_______________________________________________
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov 25 21:56:56 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 03:56:56 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] John/Ross Abraham's Seed
Message-ID: <112620070356.17223.474A4401000E25110000434722230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

All y'all (that's southern talk ;-{)}) have a great week too.  There is much to consider and be thankful for as we start this new week.

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" <bkgivin at charter.net>: -------------- 


John, yes, yes yes!  Overwhelmed is a good word for it.  I have not been able to listen in to the teachings from the Synagogue Without Walls (love that name!) before today as I have other Shabbat commitments, but today I had the pleasure of sitting at home near my computer, with my Bible open to listen and study!  Baruch HaShem! It brought back memories of nearly 20 years ago when I sat under the teaching of Joe Good, and it was so 'good!' (pun intended. 
 
You are so right--so much to "learn, unlearn and re-learn!"  Years ago when I was still in church, I came across a new testament passage (in Hebrews, I think) that said that something about followers of Jesus being "Abraham's seed."  I have no idea why at the time that that verse blew me away as I certainly had never heard the word, Torah, didn't really think much about Israel, and certainly had never any Jewish people or any people following the Ancient Path, but the fact that I was "Abraham's seed," somehow had a profound effect on me. 
 
Since then I have had to learn, unlearn and re-learn many concepts(and the process continues), but one thing has stayed with me, that I am a daughter of Abraham as are many of you, both sons and daughters, because you are committed to finding the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who first introduced Himself to Abraham as El Shaddai. That name is in itself, interesting.  I think I have an idea of why he chose to use that name, but will let some of you maybe give it some thought as well.  
 
In Gen 17, we learn why G-d chose Abraham in the first place--because He knew that Abraham would teach his children, and so from generation to generation, that covenant has gone on, from parents to children and on down the line.  But in order for parents or teachers to really teach, the children have to listen!  And that is where we come in.  We have to be willing to listen and take the words into our hearts and minds and let them guide our being.
 
I was talking with Pat this evening and she had an interesting comment on Malachi 3 along these lines, but I will let her explain that.
 
Ross, I have said this before, but I just cannot help myself.  Years ago when you kept saying how much you wanted to teach, but you hadn't yet really had the opportunity except on a individual basis, but I think G-d was preparing you in that He gave you so much quiet time at the plant to study at night.  Then at the right time, he answered your prayer and gave you the desires of your heart--and maybe more than you ever dreamed of imagined--all because you kept that dream before you and worked towards it!  And now in the Synagogue without Walls, it is a reality!  May G-d continue to bless and inspire you as you teach!
 
Blessings to all and Shavuah Tov (have a good week!)
 
Betty/Elisheva
 
 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 10:03 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
 
Amen to that, dear brother!

> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 03:12:43 +0000
> 
> Betty, Pat and James,
> 
> I was commenting to Ross and some of the other ROF folks how overwhelmed I was with all that we have been discussing and learning.
> 
> So much to learn, unlearn and re-learn.
> 
> We are fortunate that we serve a patient and compassionate God.
> 
> It became apparent to me today the it is His ways that matter not ours, ours only bring trouble. So learn His ways we must or perish.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: patricia robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
> 
> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:31:44 
> To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>, mark carr <ui at mcarr.us>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
> 
> 
> Yes, Betty, may it happen again that Israel prevails against all odds on this Kislev 17th.  We no longer have David, but his work lives on in all of us.  The fishermen are throwing their nets.  The tribes are gathering on the Ancient Path (as James calls it).  Our eyes are focused on going home.  We are coming out of Babylon.  
>  
> I so hope that our President will stand up for Israel.  But even if he doesn't, and the insideous plan is instigated, our G-d will have the last word.  We know from Isaiah 49:14-21 that Jerusalem's walls are continually before Him, that her destroyers will go away, and that His children will gather themselves together and come.  And  we know that His children will find the place too narrow for them and will say, "The place is too narrow for me:  make room for me that I may dwell."
>  
> Whether the nations decide they'll take G-d's land or not, His Plan and His Purpose will come about.  I'm so thankful for our fishermen - for James and Ross and Joe Good and Yair Davidi and Steve Mathe and so many more that are out there throwing their nets.  Let us all pray for and support these men of G-d.
>  
> What an incredible time to be alive!  How blessed we are to see the prophetic word unfold before our very eyes!   I have felt overwhelmed by the wonderful teaching and the emails of this day.
>  
> My love to you, Betty, and to all our fellow travelers on this Ancient Path,
>  
> Pat/Abigail  
> 
> 
> > From: bkgivin at charter.net
> > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; ui at mcarr.us
> > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
> > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:01:55 -0600
> > CC: 
> > 
> > Just read this second post and found dates to be very interesting. Of
> > course it brings up much to think about and question. I remember in days
> > past sitting under the teaching of Joseph Good, when he would emphasize over
> > and over that in Hebraic thought, what happened before will happen
> > again...basically that history repeats itself...and beyond that, even more
> > fascinating is that certain selected events often pattern themselves after
> > one another and occur on the same date. May what happened 60 years ago
> > happen again in regards to Israel!
> > 
> > I have always been fascinated by this concept and find it to be very
> > thought-provoking when it comes to this Kislev 17 date. Over 60 years ago,
> > on this date, it definitely looked as if basically all nations were against
> > Israel, yet almost at the last minute, the tide turned in Israel's favor
> > thru our own David Horowitz working behind the scenes following HaShem's
> > bidding. It makes me wish we had a David Horowitz today to work behind the
> > scenes this Tuesday, Kislev 17, at the upcoming International Conference in
> > Annapolis, MD next week.
> > 
> > Hopefully, as you stated, James, our own president will step up to the plate
> > and back Israel. As an avid Bible believer, we know that he surely knows
> > G-d's promises to bless those who bless Israel; but we also know that
> > knowing a thing is much easier than following thru with what we will then do
> > about it. Hopefully many Americans who love Israel will be supporting both
> > our Secretary of State and our President with our prayers, whether we
> > personally like them or adhere to their political viewpoints or not.
> > 
> > I also wonder if the establishment of the authenticity of the Isaiah portion
> > of the Dead Sea Scrolls might also have some reflection on our day. If we
> > only briefly review Isaiah 40-66, it is definitely mind-altering, as it so
> > strongly deals with the Redemption Plan of G-d's people with a special
> > emphasis on the House of Israel, as they finally awake, hear the "clarion
> > call" to come out of Babylon and acknowledge the Oneness of the Holy One of
> > Israel. 
> > 
> > We do know from these passages as well as a multitude of others that as
> > HaShem has scattered his sheep, he will indeed gather them back. The Haggai
> > passage regarding 24 Kislev and G-d's promise to bless his people "from this
> > day forward,", as you mentioned James (and Ross in your message today)is
> > very specific. It appears to be significant that it is such close proximity
> > to this Annapolis Conference. In fact it is a SEVEN DAY interval. 
> > 
> > This is getting long, I know, but to answer your rhetorical question, James,
> > I don't think it is a coincidence that our Torah reading is VayYishlah,(Gen
> > 32:4-36)where we read of Jacob and his mightly wrestling the malach; and
> > also the separation between Jacob and Esau as brothers, one to the West of
> > the Jordan and one to the East of the Jordan. The haftarah, Obadiah, is
> > certainly not mere coincidence, as it even speaks of "casting lots" for
> > Jerusalem, but it has a good ending. May it be so!
> > 
> > Shavuah tov and Blessings,
> > 
> > Betty/Elisheva
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 3:09 PM
> > To: ui at mcarr.us
> > Cc: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> > Subject: [Dialogue] Most Sobering New Story
> > 
> > I know many of you have been following the plans of our U.S. 
> > government to host this massive upcoming International Conference for 
> > the Establishment of a Palestinian State in Annapolis, MD next week, 
> > hosted by our Secretary of State and our President. I had not noticed 
> > until Gary Arvidson forwarded me the story just now, that the date of 
> > this upcoming meeting, which will draw over 50 nations together, falls 
> > on the Hebrew calendar 60 years to the day of the partition of 
> > Palestine in 1947. I have written often of how our own David Horowitz, 
> > founder of UIWU, was present at that historic first UN meeting, and 
> > was able to lobby three influential votes from Central American 
> > countries that put Israel over the edge, but I had always concentrated 
> > on the date, November 29th, not Kislev 17, its Hebrew equivalent. That 
> > same date, by the way, was the date that Prof. Eliezar Sukenick, of 
> > Hebrew University, first identified the Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea 
> > Caves, as authentically from the 2nd century BCE.
> > 
> > Next Tuesday, the day the Conference begins, falls on Kislev 17. I 
> > can't help thinking that this Kislev 24 (Dec 4th), a day that lives in 
> > infamy in Jewish History and in the Prophet words of Haggai, might 
> > well play a part in something quite significant this year. It is clear 
> > that we are not living in normal times.
> > 
> > The Prophets are clear about all the nations gathering against 
> > Jerusalem in the last days. Perhaps gathering is not merely military 
> > invasion, though that could come, but even gatherings such as this 
> > kind of summit, in which the world with one voice speaks for the 
> > partition of Israel into the "two State" solution. The irony is that 
> > long ago, with the Balfour Declaration, a "two State" solution was 
> > proposed and nearly implemented. It is called Israel and Jordan, and 
> > it dived things along the West and East Bank of the Jordan River. I 
> > think we are going to see the anti-Israeli rhetoric come out of the 
> > woodwork in this Conference. We will have to wait and see. I still 
> > have hope, however, that the U.S. will stand its ground in behalf of 
> > Israel depending on how things go. In the time of Truman the State 
> > department and many in our government strongly opposed Truman's 
> > recognition of Israel in 1947. They were actually flabbergasted and 
> > enraged. But he did it anyway. Maybe GWB, in his last days in office, 
> > will find some resources deep within his biblical experiences to 
> > remember and know that YHVH blesses those who bless Israel, who after 
> > 2000 years of Exile, including the Holocaust, deserve at least the 
> > tiny West Bank of the ancient land of Palestine.
> > 
> > Is it any accident that the Torah reading today is VaYishlach, dealing 
> > with Jacob separating from the "Arab" populations of Esau, who were to 
> > live on the East side of the Jordan, not the West. And Obadiah is the 
> > Haftarah reading...
> > 
> > Shabbat Shalom,
> > 
> > James
> >_______________________________________________
> > 
> > 
> >_______________________________________________
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov 25 23:41:36 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:41:36 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
Message-ID: <112620070541.9850.474A5C8F0007E1240000267A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Hanoch,

I've been reading along for the last couple of days.  I know I don't have a clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last year or so other than some of your work trials.  But I can honestly say that my world has been completely turned on it;s ear over the last year as well.  Loss of family and friends, emotional upheavals, major career changes, it's a lot to deal with.  I don't know if my troubles have been anything close to yours but I can say that HaShem is bringing me through it all with more hope and clarity than I could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt in my mind He will do the same for you.  It is good to have so many here to support each other.

It is also good to see you back in the fray.

As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and real way for us to make a difference.  Count me in.

Your brother from Brooklyn,

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Shalom to all - 

    The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over Israel's borders.  With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.  Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....

    For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our nation.  Please check it out, and spread the word...
            Hanoch
Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot & Cold Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! 






Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
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From info at poweredbyhadavar.com  Mon Nov 26 07:53:47 2007
From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:53:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] The meeting against Israel tomorrow
Message-ID: <618702.98206.qm@web1002.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Thought I would share this with you guys.

It is not often that I have strange dreams but when I ask G-d to visit me in my dreams and some things happen, I take notice.

I dream that a black horse was coming at me but I was not afraid and I had to get on the horse.  I was told to ride thru this particular city asking "where is Justice" it was like a warning and the towns were in disorder.  

Then I woke up and thought of this in Rev. 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 

Not sure it really means anything but wanted to share it with all of you.

Rick
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From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Mon Nov 26 07:56:22 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:56:22 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The meeting against Israel tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <618702.98206.qm@web1002.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F4C7@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

... hair standing up on back of neck...

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
	Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:54 AM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The meeting against Israel tomorrow
	
	
	Thought I would share this with you guys.
	
	It is not often that I have strange dreams but when I ask G-d to
visit me in my dreams and some things happen, I take notice.
	
	I dream that a black horse was coming at me but I was not afraid
and I had to get on the horse.  I was told to ride thru this particular
city asking "where is Justice" it was like a warning and the towns were
in disorder.  
	
	Then I woke up and thought of this in Rev. 6:5 And when he had
opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I
beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of
balances in his hand. 
	
	Not sure it really means anything but wanted to share it with
all of you.
	
	Rick
	

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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Mon Nov 26 07:59:05 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:59:05 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The meeting against Israel tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <618702.98206.qm@web1002.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5641@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Wow!  That's pretty specific.  I have been dreaming a lot myself lately
but I can't remember them.

 

John C.

"Be Excellent to Each Other!"

                      Bill & Ted

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:54 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The meeting against Israel tomorrow

 

Thought I would share this with you guys.

It is not often that I have strange dreams but when I ask G-d to visit
me in my dreams and some things happen, I take notice.

I dream that a black horse was coming at me but I was not afraid and I
had to get on the horse.  I was told to ride thru this particular city
asking "where is Justice" it was like a warning and the towns were in
disorder.  

Then I woke up and thought of this in Rev. 6:5 And when he had opened
the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld,
and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in
his hand. 

Not sure it really means anything but wanted to share it with all of
you.

Rick

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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Mon Nov 26 11:37:48 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:37:48 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
In-Reply-To: <112620070541.9850.474A5C8F0007E1240000267A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <112620070541.9850.474A5C8F0007E1240000267A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <8C9FE6A32493A09-7A8-2EEF@webmail-de01.sysops.aol.com>


Shalom John,



??? Thank you so much for your note, you have no idea what a 'shot in the arm' it was for me.? It's funny, although I've yet to have the pleasure of meeting you, I feel like we're old pals - must be that Brooklyn connection, huh?? :-)? 



???? You know, I never doubt that HaShem has a plan for me, and that those things that seem difficult, or enormous obstacles now, all have a role to play for the future.? However, it's getting through the present - those very tough times, when everything seems to be going wrong, and every decision you make, you come to quickly regret, THAT's the tough part.? The toughest part, actually...

???? It's a true gift from HaShem to be satisfied with one's 'lot in life,' to be able to be grateful for those friends and family members who can bring such joy to your lives.? That's one side of it...on the other side, are the 'would've, should've and could've' elements that drive you crazy!? That's where my mind has been hanging out lately....Every mistake I've made, every poor choice, and the ramifications of all of them....

???? But you're right John, it's great to have such caring individuals here, in this "synagogue without walls;" which is actually the FRIENDLIEST synagogue I've ever been a part of!!!?? :-)? :-) 
HaShem will bring you, me, and all of us who need him though these tough?times.? HE will comfort us, Help us heal from our losses, and restore calm to us all, even when there seems to be 'no way out.'?? 

?? Thanks for welcoming me (back), and reaching out, you are a real 'bro' - in all the deepest meanings of the term.? And it's great to be back in what you've called, the 'fray.'? No matter how much any of us are hurting, we have a great cause that we must continue battling for.? These are truly the "end of days..." when the forces of evil in the world are standing against HaShem, HIS land and HIS people, how can we not rise to the occasion?!?!? 

?? May we all draw strength from HaShem, and from each other....thanks for reaching out, pal - you've truly brightened what has been a horrible couple of days.? I'll try to post as often as I can....this may be my only sanity check!? LOL

??? B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel),
??????????? Hanoch

???????????? 



-----Original Message-----
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41 am
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers







Hey Hanoch,

?

I've been reading along for the last couple of days.? I know I don't have a clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last year or so other than some of your work trials.? But I can honestly say that my world has been completely turned on it;s ear over the last year as well.? Loss of family and friends, emotional upheavals, major career changes, it's a lot to deal with.? I don't know if my troubles have been anything close to yours but I can say that HaShem is bringing me through it all with more hope and clarity than I could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt in my mind He will do the same for you.? It is good to have so many here to support each other.

?

It is also good to see you back in the fray.

?

As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and real way for us to make a difference.? Count me in.

?

Your brother from Brooklyn,

?

Shalom.


--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Shalom to all - 

?

??? The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over Israel's borders.? With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.? Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....

?

??? For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our nation.? Please check it out, and spread the word...

??? ??? ??? Hanoch

Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot & Cold Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! 




Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.




_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Mon Nov 26 11:39:06 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:39:06 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
In-Reply-To: <8C9FE6A32493A09-7A8-2EEF@webmail-de01.sysops.aol.com>
References: <112620070541.9850.474A5C8F0007E1240000267A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<8C9FE6A32493A09-7A8-2EEF@webmail-de01.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C9FE6A60BDD991-7A8-2F0C@webmail-de01.sysops.aol.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: youngbarzel at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers



Shalom John,

?

??? Thank you so much for your note, you have no idea what a 'shot in the arm' it was for me.? It's funny, although I've yet to have the pleasure of meeting you, I feel like we're old pals - must be that Brooklyn connection, huh?? :-)? 

?

???? You know, I never doubt that HaShem has a plan for me, and that those things that seem difficult, or enormous obstacles now, all have a role to play for the future.? However, it's getting through the present - those very tough times, when everything seems to be going wrong, and every decision you make, you come to quickly regret, THAT's the tough part.? The toughest part, actually...

???? It's a true gift from HaShem to be satisfied with one's 'lot in life,' to be able to be grateful for those friends and family members who can bring such joy to your lives.? That's one side of it...on the other side, are the 'would've, should've and could've' elements that drive you crazy!? That's where my mind has been hanging out lately....Every mistake I've made, every poor choice, and the ramifications of all of them....

???? But you're right John, it's great to have such caring individuals here, in this "synagogue without walls;" which is actually the FRIENDLIEST synagogue I've ever been a part of!!!?? :-)? :-) 
HaShem will bring you, me, and all of us who need him though these tough?times.? HE will comfort us, Help us heal from our losses, and restore calm to us all, even when there seems to be 'no way out.'?? 

?? Thanks for welcoming me (back), and reaching out, you are a real 'bro' - in all the deepest meanings of the term.? And it's great to be back in what you've called, the 'fray.'? No matter how much any of us are hurting, we have a great cause that we must continue battling for.? These are truly the "end of days..." when the forces of evil in the world are standing against HaShem, HIS land and HIS people, how can we not rise to the occasion?!?!? 

?? May we all draw strength from HaShem, and from each other....thanks for reaching out, pal - you've truly brightened what has been a horrible couple of days.? I'll try to post as often as I can....this may be my only sanity check!? LOL

??? B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel),
??????????? Hanoch

???????????? 



-----Original Message-----
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41 am
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers







Hey Hanoch,

?

I've been reading along for the last couple of days.? I know I don't have a clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last year or so other than some of your work trials.? But I can honestly say that my world has been completely turned on it;s ear over the last year as well.? Loss of family and friends, emotional upheavals, major career changes, it's a lot to deal with.? I don't know if my troubles have been anything close to yours but I can say that HaShem is bringing me through it all with more hope and clarity than I could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt in my mind He will do the same for you.? It is good to have so many here to support each other.

?

It is also good to see you back in the fray.

?

As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and real way for us to make a difference.? Count me in.

?

Your brother from Brooklyn,

?

Shalom.


--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Shalom to all - 

?

??? The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over Israel's borders.? With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.? Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....

?

??? For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our nation.? Please check it out, and spread the word...

??? ??? ??? Hanoch

Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot & Cold Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! 




Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.




_______________________________________________


Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!



________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Mon Nov 26 12:16:29 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:16:29 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] "There is no Palestine" - written in 1974
Message-ID: <8C9FE6F99F106CE-A8C-152A@FWM-D21.sysops.aol.com>




There Is No Palestine
By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l

There is no "Palestine people" and there is no "Palestine." The lands that today constitute the State of Israel, Judea, Samaria (the West Bank), Gaza and the Golan are parts of Israel, the sole land of the Jews. 



The Jewish claim to the Land of Israel is not an ordinary nationalist one. It is NOT merely derived from the fact that ONCE Jews were sovereign there, were the majority, ruled the land under their own government and that never was the land empty of Jews. All this is true but this is not the main claim of the Jewish people. Jewish refusal to give up lands is sometimes based on the logical and self evident fact that to give up lands to a people that has constantly threatened to destroy you is sheer madness, and that Jews dare not trust to their kindly intentions in the future. This too, is true, but again, it is not the reason for Jews remaining on the lands liberated after June, 1967. 



The fundamental and REAL Jewish claim to The Land of Israel is based on the fact that there is a Divine grant of the land to the Jewish people, and that G-d gave the Holy Land to the Jewish people in order that it be holy and create a holy society therein. No other arguments - Jewish or Arab - have any relevance to the essential fact that the One who created the entire world and who possesses it, has the power and the right to give it to whomever he chooses and this is what was done more than 3,000 years ago at the time of Moses and Joshua. This is what remains inalienable right today. The Land of Israel in its Biblical boundaries is the Divine decree to the Jewish people, it belongs to the Jewish people in its entirety and no alien trespass has any merit or chance of success. 



Zionism is NOT one more movement of national liberation. It is not one more like all the rest any more than the Jewish people is one more like all the rest. The believing Jew as the believing Christian knows that there is a Divine pledge - repeated again and again in the prophets of the Bible - that the Jew will be brought back from the Exile, gathered from the corners of the earth and brought home - to the Land of Israel. The believing Jew and the believing Christian know that this resurrection of the Jewish state and this return of the Jew to his home is a NECESSARY precondition for the coming of the final redemption and the establishment of the Kingdom of G-d. 



Zionism, the establishment of the State of Israel, the return of millions of Jews home, the miraculous victories of the few over the many Arabs, the liberation of Judea, Samaria (the West Bank), Gaza, and the Golan, the return of Jewish sovereignty over the Holy City and Temple Mount are all parts of the Divine pledge and its fulfillment. 



There can be no "Palestine", a name that was invented by the Romans to symbolize the end of the Jewish people, for that would be to diminish and to force back the miracle of G-d and to go against the Divine era of redemption. There can be no "Palestine" for if there is, then there is no Israel. 



In all this we DIFFER FUNDAMENTALLY with the government of Israel which 1) recognizes a "Palestinian" people after years of refusing to do so, 2) that there are "moderate Palestinians" who will both challenge the PLO thesis and leadership as well as permanently accept a Jewish State, 3) believes that peace with the Arabs by concessions is possible, 4) is prepared to give up parts of the Land of Israel to the Arabs, and 5) refuses to allow Jews to settle unrestrictedly in any part of the Land of Israel under Jewish control. 



We differ with these stands and maintain that the government of Israel, through its short-sighted, timid and vacillating policy, not only destroys the vision and the dream of redemption but brings potential disaster down on the heads of the Jewish people. We maintain that there must be an immediate program of declaring: 



1) There are no meaningful Arab moderates who will permanently accept any Jewish state, of any size. The ultimate Arab goal is the elimination of any Jewish state. 



2) There is no "Palestine people" or "Palestine" entity. 



3) All of the Land of Israel belongs exclusively to the Jewish people. 



4) If there are those who wish to create something known as "Palestine' they are welcome to do so in "Jordan" which in itself is a fictitious state created by the imperialist British by cutting away, in 1921, the eastern part of the Land of Israel. The Arabs who call themselves "Palestinians" had the opportunity to create a "Palestine" in a far larger part of the Land of Israel but refused to do so. They lost that chance forever and if they refuse to create a state in "Jordan" now, but insist upon war, they will lose again and lose "Jordan" in the process because - WHILE WE WILL NEVER BEGIN A WAR FOR THOSE PARTS OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL NOW UNDER FOREIGN RULE, SHOULD THE ARABS BEGIN THAT WAR AND WE LIBERATE STILL OTHER AREAS OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL, THEN THOSE WILL NEVER BE GIVEN UP EITHER. 



5) The Arabs today sit in large areas of the Land of Israel promised by G-d to us. For the sake of peace, we are prepared to go to a peace conference with maps to show which lands we claim as our own but declare that we are prepared to declare a state of non- belligerency and not demand those lands back. In exchange for that concession, and as the price they should pay for their aggression of 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 the Arabs must recognize the State of Israel in the area it now controls. 



6) Immediate, unlimited and unrestricted Jewish settlement in any and every part of the Land of Israel including Judea, Samaria, Gaza, and the Golan. 



There is no "Palestine" people and there is no "Palestine." We are not dismayed by the Arabs, we are not shocked, we are not confused. Above all, we are not fooled by them. Not by their vague and tantalizing hints of "recognition" not by their aura of "moderation" and not by their ingenious effort to create a camp of "extremists" versus "moderates." We are not fooled by those who for 44 years have threatened to do away with the Jewish state, as in 1967 - before they were taught to be more discreet and allow the world a face-saving way to allow Israel to die. We are not fooled by those, who, in 1956 - BEFORE Jews had liberated the lands the Arabs claim constitute the major cause - took arms from the Soviets and prepared to wipe out the Israel of that time. We are not fooled by those who, in 1947 turned down even the pathetic, grotesque tiny state that the United Nations gave the Jews. We are not fooled by those who rioted against and killed Jews in 1921, 1929, 1936, 1937, and 1938. We are not fooled. There are no "moderate" Arabs. There are only clever and less clever, patient and impatient. The final solution for ALL is the same - the elimination of any Jewish State. And so we repeat: There is no "Palestine people" and there is no "Palestine." They are Arabs, part of the Arab nation that lives in many countries, and to where the Arabs of the Land of Israel must and will be repatriated. 



(Written in 1974)



________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 26 18:15:21 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:15:21 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The meeting against Israel tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <618702.98206.qm@web1002.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <618702.98206.qm@web1002.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W397812C3EFFA0B032D316CBA760@phx.gbl>


Very, very interesting!!!  Thank you so much for sharing this, Rick.  Without justice, we have no foundation as a society.  Establishing courts of justice is one of the seven laws G-d gives to all mankind, as I'm sure you are well aware.   
I think this dream is going to stick in my mind for a long time to come.
 
Shalom,
 
Pat


Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:53:47 -0800From: info at poweredbyhadavar.comSubject: Re: [Dialogue] The meeting against Israel tomorrowTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org



Thought I would share this with you guys.It is not often that I have strange dreams but when I ask G-d to visit me in my dreams and some things happen, I take notice.I dream that a black horse was coming at me but I was not afraid and I had to get on the horse.  I was told to ride thru this particular city asking "where is Justice" it was like a warning and the towns were in disorder.  Then I woke up and thought of this in Rev. 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. Not sure it really means anything but wanted to share it with all of you.Rick
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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Mon Nov 26 20:02:43 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:02:43 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Michael Freund's "Stop the Would-Be Hitler of Persia -
	Bomb Iran Now!"
Message-ID: <c04.24b27cf4.347cd4c3@aol.com>

Shalom to all - 
       Michael Freund is one person that I have enormous respect for - and 
he's done amazing work with his organization, Shavei Israel.  Please read his 
blog entry below, and pass it along....
               Hanoch
 
_Blog_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/) 


13 Kislev 5768, 11/23/2007
Stop the Would-Be Hitler of Persia - Bomb Iran Now!


Are we really prepared to allow the tyrant of Teheran to threaten our very 
existence?
With Iran moving ever closer to obtaining nuclear weapons, there are some 
worrisome indications that the US and Israel may have suddenly developed cold 
feet about confronting the tyrant of Tehran.
 
But now is not the time for cowardice or even for hesitation. The fate of the 
world is at stake, and as I argue in the column below, there are five good 
reasons why military action must be taken - and soon - to prevent the would-be 
Hitler of Persia from threatening the future of Israel and the West.
 

 
Five Reasons to Bomb Iran Now
By Michael Freund

 
Have America and Israel suddenly gone soft on Iran's nefarious 
nuclear-weapons program? 
Despite sanctions and UN Security Council resolutions, Iranian President 
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is gleefully pressing forward with his efforts to build a 
bomb, which Israeli military intelligence now believes he will succeed in doing by 
2009. 
Indeed, just last Friday, the would-be Hitler of Persia boasted about how 
Teheran had "defied" Western opposition, and was now "moving toward the peaks of 
success step by step." 
Yet even as Iran continues to progress down the dangerous road to an atomic 
arsenal, the tough talk emanating from Washington and Jerusalem in recent 
months has suddenly and inexplicably melted away. 
And this should have us all very, very worried. 
It was just last month that US President George W. Bush declared at an 
October 17 press conference that, "If you're interested in avoiding World War III, 
it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them [Iran] from having 
the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon." 
Bush's statement was followed four days later by an equally emphatic Vice 
President Dick Cheney, who told the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, 
"We will not allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon. Our country, and the entire 
international community, cannot stand by as a terror-supporting state fulfills 
its grandest ambitions." 
Now, though, something appears to have changed. Various reports in recent 
days seem to indicate that US policy may have taken a sharp and terribly 
treacherous U-turn in the direction of acquiescence. 
According to the Britain's Sunday Telegraph, the US Defense Department has 
begun updating its deterrence policy based on the assumption that Iran will 
obtain nuclear weapons. 
The paper quoted a Pentagon adviser as saying that while "military strikes 
[against Iran's nuclear facilities] might set the program back a couple of years?
 current thinking is that it is just not worth the risks." 
Similarly, Admiral William Fallon, head of US Central Command, which oversees 
military operations in the Middle East, told the Financial Times last week 
(Nov. 12) that a preemptive attack against Iranian nuclear installations is not 
"in the offing." 
And, as Reuters reported, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is said to have 
instructed cabinet officials to draft proposals for how to deal with "the day after" 
Iran obtains the bomb. 
WHAT IS going on here? Are we really prepared to allow the tyrant of Teheran 
to threaten our very existence? 
It is possible, of course, that these reports are merely part of the overall 
game-plan, and that they are aimed at lulling the Iranians into a false sense 
of security prior to a surprise attack on their nuclear installations. 
Alternatively, it might reflect the shifting political realities in the US, 
where public opinion, goaded on by the mainstream liberal media, has turned 
against the war in neighboring Iraq. 
But whatever the reality of the situation is, one thing should be clear: Iran 
can not and must not be allowed to obtain nuclear weapons. 
This is not an issue with shades of grey - it is about as black and white as 
they come. 
And here are five good reasons why: 
1. An Iranian nuclear arsenal would transform the strategic dynamic of the 
entire Middle East, shifting the balance of power squarely in the direction of 
radical Shi'ite fundamentalism. 
An atomic Iran will be able to threaten the region and the world with nuclear 
blackmail and destruction, and they will use that leverage to further their 
fanatical and revolutionary aims. 
2. A nuclear-armed Iran will pose an existential threat to Israel, and 
ultimately to the West too. Iranian leaders have repeatedly and explicitly promised 
to wipe Israel off the map and to strike at the United States. 
Teheran has been backing up its words with actions by steadily improving its 
ballistic missile capability. The Shihab-3 missile, with a range of 1,200 km, 
can hit all of Israel as well as US military targets in the Middle East. Iran 
is busy developing the Shihab-4, with a range of 2,000 km, that will put parts 
of Europe within striking distance. Teheran is also striving to build even 
longer-range intercontinental missiles that can hit the US as well. All of these 
weapons have the ability to deliver atomic warheads. 
3. If Iran goes nuclear, it will inevitably tilt the neighboring Arab states 
further in the direction of extremism, as they seek to mollify the 
nuclear-armed ayatollahs. Whatever limited chances there might be of drawing at least 
some Arab states into the moderate camp are likely to be stymied rather quickly. 
4. Failure to take action against Teheran will trigger a region-wide nuclear 
arms race, as countries throughout the Middle East will seek to achieve 
strategic and military parity. 
A number of states, such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia, have already announced 
plans to build their own nuclear power plants, and others will undoubtedly do so 
as well out of fear of being left behind. Permitting Iran to go nuclear 
essentially paves the way to a Middle East that will be brimming with atomic 
weapons. 
5. If Iran were to develop "the bomb," what is to stop them from putting it 
into the hands of one of the myriad anti-Israel and anti-American terrorist 
groups that they support, such as Hizbullah or Islamic Jihad? Do we really want 
to take a chance that terrorists might at last be able to get their hands on 
nuclear weapons? This is not some "neocon nightmare scenario" or "warmonger 
wishful-thinking." 
It is the cold, hard reality staring us all squarely in the face, unless 
Washington or Jerusalem takes military action, and soon. 
CRITICS ARGUE that an attack on Iran would be logistically difficult, 
politically dangerous, and would result in some very serious consequences. 
But as former US ambassador to the UN John Bolton told the New York Times 
(November 9), "The choice is not between the world as it is today and the use of 
force. The choice is between the use of force and Iran with nuclear weapons." 
And when looked at in those terms, it becomes quite obvious that there really 
is no choice at all: the US and/or Israel must bomb Iran. They must act to 
remove the nuclear sword from the hand of the Persian executioner. 
And they should do so now - before it is too late.

--- from the November 21 Jerusalem Post




**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Mon Nov 26 20:15:02 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:15:02 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] 2 books not to miss!!
Message-ID: <cbf.18ec7565.347cd7a6@aol.com>

Shalom to all, 
 
    The only advantage to commuting 3 hours/day on the subway, is that I get 
to read a LOT (and practice my martial arts skills, but that's a topic for 
another day..).  Two books that I've recently read, which I've been able to draw 
a lot of insight (and strength!) from are:
 
1. Prophecies for the Era of Muslim Terror  - A Torah Perspective of World 
Events by Rabbi Menachem Kohen, which you can get on Amazon.com, and
 
2. The Ishmaelite Exile 
         
The Ishmaelite Exile (Sku #: 9878) 
By: Rabbi Yechiel Weitzman | Publisher: Jerusalem Publications | Language: 
English | Volumes: 1 | Binding: Hard | Weight: 1.25 lb. |  
 
In The Ishmaelite Exile , Rabbi Weitzman, a leading lecturer for Arachim, an 
Israeli outreach organization, presents his analysis of current events. 
Explaining the history of the Jewish People's relationship with the nation of 
Ishmael, and the spiritual sources for the conflicts between the two, this book 
presents a different way of looking at world affairs. The Ishmaelite Exile also 
discusses the events surrounding the End of Days, the different scenarios that 
can occur, and how we can be best prepared for these momentous times. 



Price: $19.95 
This is an extraordinary book, which you can order from _www.Nehora.com_ 
(http://www.Nehora.com)   

Both books relate the prophecies of the Tanach to the events we're 
experiencing on a daily basis.  Please try to check them out!
               Hanoch
 
 
 
 
 
 
The Ishmaelite Exile (Sku #: 9878) 
By: Rabbi Yechiel Weitzman | Publisher: Jerusalem Publications | Language: 
English | Volumes: 1 | Binding: Hard | Weight: 1.25 lb. |  
 
In The Ishmaelite Exile , Rabbi Weitzman, a leading lecturer for Arachim, an 
Israeli outreach organization, presents his analysis of current events. 
Explaining the history of the Jewish People's relationship with the nation of 
Ishmael, and the spiritual sources for the conflicts between the two, this book 
presents a different way of looking at world affairs. The Ishmaelite Exile also 
discusses the events surrounding the End of Days, the different scenarios that 
can occur, and how we can be best prepared for these momentous times. 



Price: $19.95 



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Mon Nov 26 20:42:25 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:42:25 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
Message-ID: <c62.1e45b20d.347cde11@aol.com>

Hey Ross!!
 
   You really want me to bore all these nice Torah-seeking folks with MY 
introduction?  Sighhhh...okay pal, I will try to get to it within the next day or 
so....
 
    And I am SO ready to pray Ross, there is SO much at stake right now....as 
the Israeli government prepares the greatest betrayal in Jewish history...I 
am in such a rage!!!  But as we know from Yom Kippur, TSHUVA 
(return/repentence), TZEDAKA ('charity') & TEFILA (prayer) are the only things that can avert 
the stern decree.....
 
    Thanks for mentioning my girls - the one good thing that I've been able 
to do in my life so far.  My youngest daughter Kyra (more on her in my note) 
has gone back to Israel, and is doing Sherut Leumi, "National Service" for this 
year (Religious women usually do not go into the Army, since the 'scene' there 
is the same as anywhere you'd put 18-21 year old men and women together... 
picture a coed dorm at college..). She's in Yatir, which is in the Judean 
'mountains' - between Hevron and Beersheva.  I have reminded her that her tefilot 
(prayers) are so much more effective then mine....she's like a 'local call' away 
from HaShem, and I'm clearly long distance....
 
    More to follow shortly....and thanks for welcoming me Ross!!  :-)
 
    B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel), 
            Hanoch



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 26 21:21:53 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:21:53 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] "There is no Palestine" - written in 1974
In-Reply-To: <8C9FE6F99F106CE-A8C-152A@FWM-D21.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C9FE6F99F106CE-A8C-152A@FWM-D21.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W24EF35615EDBB6072D80AFBA760@phx.gbl>


AMEN, AMEN!!!!!!!!


To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:16:29 -0500From: youngbarzel at aol.comSubject: [Dialogue] "There is no Palestine" - written in 1974
There Is No PalestineBy Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l
There is no "Palestine people" and there is no "Palestine." The lands that today constitute the State of Israel, Judea, Samaria (the West Bank), Gaza and the Golan are parts of Israel, the sole land of the Jews. 

The Jewish claim to the Land of Israel is not an ordinary nationalist one. It is NOT merely derived from the fact that ONCE Jews were sovereign there, were the majority, ruled the land under their own government and that never was the land empty of Jews. All this is true but this is not the main claim of the Jewish people. Jewish refusal to give up lands is sometimes based on the logical and self evident fact that to give up lands to a people that has constantly threatened to destroy you is sheer madness, and that Jews dare not trust to their kindly intentions in the future. This too, is true, but again, it is not the reason for Jews remaining on the lands liberated after June, 1967. 

The fundamental and REAL Jewish claim to The Land of Israel is based on the fact that there is a Divine grant of the land to the Jewish people, and that G-d gave the Holy Land to the Jewish people in order that it be holy and create a holy society therein. No other arguments - Jewish or Arab - have any relevance to the essential fact that the One who created the entire world and who possesses it, has the power and the right to give it to whomever he chooses and this is what was done more than 3,000 years ago at the time of Moses and Joshua. This is what remains inalienable right today. The Land of Israel in its Biblical boundaries is the Divine decree to the Jewish people, it belongs to the Jewish people in its entirety and no alien trespass has any merit or chance of success. 

Zionism is NOT one more movement of national liberation. It is not one more like all the rest any more than the Jewish people is one more like all the rest. The believing Jew as the believing Christian knows that there is a Divine pledge - repeated again and again in the prophets of the Bible - that the Jew will be brought back from the Exile, gathered from the corners of the earth and brought home - to the Land of Israel. The believing Jew and the believing Christian know that this resurrection of the Jewish state and this return of the Jew to his home is a NECESSARY precondition for the coming of the final redemption and the establishment of the Kingdom of G-d. 

Zionism, the establishment of the State of Israel, the return of millions of Jews home, the miraculous victories of the few over the many Arabs, the liberation of Judea, Samaria (the West Bank), Gaza, and the Golan, the return of Jewish sovereignty over the Holy City and Temple Mount are all parts of the Divine pledge and its fulfillment. 

There can be no "Palestine", a name that was invented by the Romans to symbolize the end of the Jewish people, for that would be to diminish and to force back the miracle of G-d and to go against the Divine era of redemption. There can be no "Palestine" for if there is, then there is no Israel. 

In all this we DIFFER FUNDAMENTALLY with the government of Israel which 1) recognizes a "Palestinian" people after years of refusing to do so, 2) that there are "moderate Palestinians" who will both challenge the PLO thesis and leadership as well as permanently accept a Jewish State, 3) believes that peace with the Arabs by concessions is possible, 4) is prepared to give up parts of the Land of Israel to the Arabs, and 5) refuses to allow Jews to settle unrestrictedly in any part of the Land of Israel under Jewish control. 

We differ with these stands and maintain that the government of Israel, through its short-sighted, timid and vacillating policy, not only destroys the vision and the dream of redemption but brings potential disaster down on the heads of the Jewish people. We maintain that there must be an immediate program of declaring: 

1) There are no meaningful Arab moderates who will permanently accept any Jewish state, of any size. The ultimate Arab goal is the elimination of any Jewish state. 

2) There is no "Palestine people" or "Palestine" entity. 

3) All of the Land of Israel belongs exclusively to the Jewish people. 

4) If there are those who wish to create something known as "Palestine' they are welcome to do so in "Jordan" which in itself is a fictitious state created by the imperialist British by cutting away, in 1921, the eastern part of the Land of Israel. The Arabs who call themselves "Palestinians" had the opportunity to create a "Palestine" in a far larger part of the Land of Israel but refused to do so. They lost that chance forever and if they refuse to create a state in "Jordan" now, but insist upon war, they will lose again and lose "Jordan" in the process because - WHILE WE WILL NEVER BEGIN A WAR FOR THOSE PARTS OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL NOW UNDER FOREIGN RULE, SHOULD THE ARABS BEGIN THAT WAR AND WE LIBERATE STILL OTHER AREAS OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL, THEN THOSE WILL NEVER BE GIVEN UP EITHER. 

5) The Arabs today sit in large areas of the Land of Israel promised by G-d to us. For the sake of peace, we are prepared to go to a peace conference with maps to show which lands we claim as our own but declare that we are prepared to declare a state of non- belligerency and not demand those lands back. In exchange for that concession, and as the price they should pay for their aggression of 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 the Arabs must recognize the State of Israel in the area it now controls. 

6) Immediate, unlimited and unrestricted Jewish settlement in any and every part of the Land of Israel including Judea, Samaria, Gaza, and the Golan. 

There is no "Palestine" people and there is no "Palestine." We are not dismayed by the Arabs, we are not shocked, we are not confused. Above all, we are not fooled by them. Not by their vague and tantalizing hints of "recognition" not by their aura of "moderation" and not by their ingenious effort to create a camp of "extremists" versus "moderates." We are not fooled by those who for 44 years have threatened to do away with the Jewish state, as in 1967 - before they were taught to be more discreet and allow the world a face-saving way to allow Israel to die. We are not fooled by those, who, in 1956 - BEFORE Jews had liberated the lands the Arabs claim constitute the major cause - took arms from the Soviets and prepared to wipe out the Israel of that time. We are not fooled by those who, in 1947 turned down even the pathetic, grotesque tiny state that the United Nations gave the Jews. We are not fooled by those who rioted against and killed Jews in 1921, 1929, 1936, 1937, and 1938. We are not fooled. There are no "moderate" Arabs. There are only clever and less clever, patient and impatient. The final solution for ALL is the same - the elimination of any Jewish State. And so we repeat: There is no "Palestine people" and there is no "Palestine." They are Arabs, part of the Arab nation that lives in many countries, and to where the Arabs of the Land of Israel must and will be repatriated. 

(Written in 1974)


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From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Mon Nov 26 23:14:29 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 0:14:29 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] trienniel cycle question
Message-ID: <20071127001429.LVX4W.48270.root@fepweb16>

Question for Ross or whoever can answer:

How are 154 or Sedarim stretched out for 3 and a half years?  Is it that weeks with a festival have a special reading out of the normal cycle?

Kim


From rndavar at aol.com  Tue Nov 27 00:06:09 2007
From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:06:09 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] trienniel cycle question
In-Reply-To: <20071127001429.LVX4W.48270.root@fepweb16>
References: <20071127001429.LVX4W.48270.root@fepweb16>
Message-ID: <8C9FED2BD617DE3-AC0-90D7@mblk-d33.sysops.aol.com>


This subject is very involved and I?hope to?answer more specifically as I learn more, but one of the difficulties with determining the Triennial cycle is deciding on which list of readings to follow.? There are scattered comments throughout Jewish literature on the subject.? On my website there is a chart with all of the extant "lists" on my articles page.? I am going by the list of sederim noted in the Leningrad Codex (the earliest complete copy of the Hebrew Bible that we have to this point).? 



One of my planned activities over the next couple of weeks is to write some on this very subject. In short, and based upon my studies, I am inclined to believe that the ancients worked through the "triennial cycle" in 3 and a half years.? This?was tied, I believe to the Shmita cycle (7 years). I believe they would begin in Tishri and work all the way through ending in Nisan and then begin again in Nisan and work through ending in Tishri.? 



So when you were trying to determine what the reading would be if we had begun in Nisan, you had a valid question. I have pointed out the interesting correlation over the last few weeks between the actual date on the Hebrew calendar and dates mentioned in the Torah reading for that week.? I continue to be amazed at this. 



One of the reasons that I began to consider that the cycle followed a 3 and a half year course as opposed to a?3 year cycle was the fact that within Jewish literature (Talmud etc) when referencing important dates, there would be differing Rabbinic views. One scholar of this subject proposed that this was due to the fact that the event would be read at a specific time in this cycle. Let me see if I can make this make sense.? There are two views as to the date of the creation of the world; one suggests that the world was created in Tishri, while the other view is that it was created in Nisan. If the ancient torah reading cycle lasted 3 and a half years, then this would explain the differing views. It is almost certain that when Genesis 1 was read in Nisan, the inclination would be to show that the story of the creation of the world is read in Nisan because this is when the creation took place, but then in the next time through the Torah, the same story would be read in Tishri.? make sense?

This is apparently one of the methods of determining dates for events in Rabbinic literature.? There are MANY such examples where an event is dated in the Talmud, but there is apparently no textual evidence in the Torah for such dating. But when you lay the readings over a 3 and a half year reading cycle, you begin to see correlations between these dates and the events.

This topic is very involved and many brilliant scholars have attempted to determine a true list of readings.? I use it for several reasons. One is that I love a good puzzle.? I like looking for correlations between the dates in the text and the events taking place in the world today. My theory is that if one is aligned with the ancient cycle then certain things will fall into place. Another reason and a much more practical one is that this cycle allows students to fully immerse themselves into the text of the Torah. It is great for instructional purposes such as I try to lead in our congregational studies.

I do not do the triennial to suggest that the Jewish people are wrong (in their use of the annual cycle of readings) or that I somehow know more than they do. It seems, as James and many others have pointed out, that God has honored the annual cycle of readings currently used by many Jewish congregations for well over 15 centuries. A point to consider is that the main point is that people are engaged in a regular study of these sacred texts.

What I know of the "triennial system" of torah readings is based upon a study of the subject from Jewish sources and so they own both systems. In recent decades there have been several attempts to return some congregations within Judaism to a "three year" cycle of sorts. Often for the reasons I pointed out above, but most often for the "practical" reason as I have explained it.

I continue to wrestle with many questions and I do not know that I will ever figure it out, but people are being instructed on the Torah and quite often, the text reveals hints that there may in fact be something incredible to aligning ourselves to this most ancient cycle of readings.

I also keep up with the Annual readings though.? Many brilliant commentaries within Academic Judaism are arranged according to the annual cycle of readings. I continue to study this subject, but admitedly do not have it all figured out yet.

Shalom, Ross


-----Original Message-----
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net
To: dialogue: rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:14 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] trienniel cycle question




Question for Ross or whoever can answer:

How are 154 or Sedarim stretched out for 3 and a half years?  Is it that weeks 
with a festival have a special reading out of the normal cycle?

Kim
_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
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From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Tue Nov 27 08:56:22 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 6:56:22 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] triennial cycle question
In-Reply-To: <8C9FED2BD617DE3-AC0-90D7@mblk-d33.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20071127095622.55H8J.39120.root@fepweb02>

Ross,

I appreciate your response.  I  am amazed at the correlation between dates mentioned in the Torah and the current date, as well as between current events and the readings, especially after reading this week's portion  (Triennial cycle) last night...More on that later

I too am keeping up with both cycles.  We can never have too much Torah!  I think
Ha Shem likes giving us "puzzles".  There is always something new to learn...a passage one has read many times before suddenly having a meaning never before considered.  

As far as the cycle starting in Nissan, I woke up thinking about that question.  I couldn't go back to sleep until I checked it out.  From the little research I've done recently, I see that many groups Jewish and non-Jewish are returning to a trienniel cycle.  

One more question- Is attaching a Psalm to the cycle (as many groups are doing) a modern addition?

Kim
---- rndavar at aol.com wrote: 

=============

This subject is very involved and I?hope to?answer more specifically as I learn more, but one of the difficulties with determining the Triennial cycle is deciding on which list of readings to follow.? There are scattered comments throughout Jewish literature on the subject.? On my website there is a chart with all of the extant "lists" on my articles page.? I am going by the list of sederim noted in the Leningrad Codex (the earliest complete copy of the Hebrew Bible that we have to this point).? 



One of my planned activities over the next couple of weeks is to write some on this very subject. In short, and based upon my studies, I am inclined to believe that the ancients worked through the "triennial cycle" in 3 and a half years.? This?was tied, I believe to the Shmita cycle (7 years). I believe they would begin in Tishri and work all the way through ending in Nisan and then begin again in Nisan and work through ending in Tishri.? 



So when you were trying to determine what the reading would be if we had begun in Nisan, you had a valid question. I have pointed out the interesting correlation over the last few weeks between the actual date on the Hebrew calendar and dates mentioned in the Torah reading for that week.? I continue to be amazed at this. 



One of the reasons that I began to consider that the cycle followed a 3 and a half year course as opposed to a?3 year cycle was the fact that within Jewish literature (Talmud etc) when referencing important dates, there would be differing Rabbinic views. One scholar of this subject proposed that this was due to the fact that the event would be read at a specific time in this cycle. Let me see if I can make this make sense.? There are two views as to the date of the creation of the world; one suggests that the world was created in Tishri, while the other view is that it was created in Nisan. If the ancient torah reading cycle lasted 3 and a half years, then this would explain the differing views. It is almost certain that when Genesis 1 was read in Nisan, the inclination would be to show that the story of the creation of the world is read in Nisan because this is when the creation took place, but then in the next time through the Torah, the same story would be read in Tishri.? make sense?

This is apparently one of the methods of determining dates for events in Rabbinic literature.? There are MANY such examples where an event is dated in the Talmud, but there is apparently no textual evidence in the Torah for such dating. But when you lay the readings over a 3 and a half year reading cycle, you begin to see correlations between these dates and the events.

This topic is very involved and many brilliant scholars have attempted to determine a true list of readings.? I use it for several reasons. One is that I love a good puzzle.? I like looking for correlations between the dates in the text and the events taking place in the world today. My theory is that if one is aligned with the ancient cycle then certain things will fall into place. Another reason and a much more practical one is that this cycle allows students to fully immerse themselves into the text of the Torah. It is great for instructional purposes such as I try to lead in our congregational studies.

I do not do the triennial to suggest that the Jewish people are wrong (in their use of the annual cycle of readings) or that I somehow know more than they do. It seems, as James and many others have pointed out, that God has honored the annual cycle of readings currently used by many Jewish congregations for well over 15 centuries. A point to consider is that the main point is that people are engaged in a regular study of these sacred texts.

What I know of the "triennial system" of torah readings is based upon a study of the subject from Jewish sources and so they own both systems. In recent decades there have been several attempts to return some congregations within Judaism to a "three year" cycle of sorts. Often for the reasons I pointed out above, but most often for the "practical" reason as I have explained it.

I continue to wrestle with many questions and I do not know that I will ever figure it out, but people are being instructed on the Torah and quite often, the text reveals hints that there may in fact be something incredible to aligning ourselves to this most ancient cycle of readings.

I also keep up with the Annual readings though.? Many brilliant commentaries within Academic Judaism are arranged according to the annual cycle of readings. I continue to study this subject, but admitedly do not have it all figured out yet.

Shalom, Ross


-----Original Message-----
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net
To: dialogue: rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:14 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] trienniel cycle question




Question for Ross or whoever can answer:

How are 154 or Sedarim stretched out for 3 and a half years?  Is it that weeks 
with a festival have a special reading out of the normal cycle?

Kim
_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com



From dennyj at mac.com  Tue Nov 27 12:24:40 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:24:40 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath Communication Technology
In-Reply-To: <8C9FED2BD617DE3-AC0-90D7@mblk-d33.sysops.aol.com>
References: <20071127001429.LVX4W.48270.root@fepweb16>
	<8C9FED2BD617DE3-AC0-90D7@mblk-d33.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <C5CAB581-0116-1000-85AF-385202634CA4-Webmail-10023@mac.com>

Hi Ross and technical team,

I have just recently become aware of an interesting technology that may be useful for dialogue on sabbath with audio.
Here is the link to the service. You may already be aware of it. If not, it might be worth pursuing to helpful in fulfilling your vision for a synagogue without walls.

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/main.jsp?pushNav=1&cmd=home

What do you think?

Shalom,
Denny


From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov 27 13:18:25 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:18:25 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath Communication Technology
Message-ID: <112720071918.4655.474C6D80000D25170000122F22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Thanks Denny,

We'll check it out.

BTW, do you know of a guy by the name of Thomas Malloy from the Twin Cities?  He belongs to a Synagogue up there whose website is rabbiyeshua.com.  If you know anything about him I'd appreciate the info.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson <dennyj at mac.com>: -------------- 


> Hi Ross and technical team, 
> 
> I have just recently become aware of an interesting technology that may be 
> useful for dialogue on sabbath with audio. 
> Here is the link to the service. You may already be aware of it. If not, it 
> might be worth pursuing to helpful in fulfilling your vision for a synagogue 
> without walls. 
> 
> http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/main.jsp?pushNav=1&cmd=home 
> 
> What do you think? 
> 
> Shalom, 
> Denny 
> _______________________________________________ 
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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue Nov 27 13:23:25 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:23:25 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <8C9FF421DDD5333-C58-2251@MBLK-M27.sysops.aol.com>


Shalom to all, 

???? With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is you, and HaShem, our Creator.? If this comes across as disjointed, I apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head'? It seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh......

????? In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to pray.."? and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy.??As we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no advocate.."? In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on.... EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.? 

???? The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or benedictions).? The first two sentences are the following (transliterated Hebrew, then English):? "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."??? The translation is simple, the meaning behind it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."



???? The obvious question is - why the redundancy?? After all, the G-d of Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why does it describe it in THAT manner?? And here's what I learned, many, many years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:

????HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own, distinct relationship with HIM.? Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham, or each other, for that matter.? 

???? So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem, to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael.? We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.? Who knows which of us may be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees??

??? We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at stake.? You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his children:? "And may you always know the difference between what's important, and what's not."? 



??? May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new ones....


??? B'Ahavat Yisrael,
???????????? Hanoch



________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 27 13:54:02 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:54:02 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <8C9FF421DDD5333-C58-2251@MBLK-M27.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C9FF421DDD5333-C58-2251@MBLK-M27.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W4732DF5664867BAE50F38BA760@phx.gbl>


So beautifully said, Hanoch.   And thank you for the brachot.  What wisdom it is to bless your children, as your teacher did, with knowing the difference between what is important and what is not.  That's so perfectly simple and profound.
 
May Hashem hear our voices, and grant our appeal as we each pray this day for our Home, Israel, and our holy city, Jerusalem.   And may He protect us all from Amalek.
 
Shalom-shalom,
 
Pat
 
 
 
  


To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:23:25 -0500From: youngbarzel at aol.comSubject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Shalom to all,      With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across as disjointed, I apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head'  It seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh......      In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy.  As we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on.... EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.       The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or benedictions).  The first two sentences are the following (transliterated Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is simple, the meaning behind it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
 
     The obvious question is - why the redundancy?  After all, the G-d of Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what I learned, many, many years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:    HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own, distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham, or each other, for that matter.       So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem, to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael.  We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.  Who knows which of us may be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees??    We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his children:  "And may you always know the difference between what's important, and what's not."  
 
    May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new ones....
    B'Ahavat Yisrael,             Hanoch
 


More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Tue Nov 27 14:34:23 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:34:23 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
Message-ID: <c8e.18fe1d8d.347dd94f@aol.com>

I changed the look of the website over the last 24 hours.  You may  need to 
refresh to see the changes.  Check it out.
 
I am open for constructive feedback.  
 
Shalom, Ross



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Tue Nov 27 14:36:15 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:36:15 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
In-Reply-To: <c8e.18fe1d8d.347dd94f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F516@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

I looked - cool!

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com
	Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:34 PM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
	
	
	
	I changed the look of the website over the last 24 hours.  You
may need to refresh to see the changes.  Check it out.
	 
	I am open for constructive feedback.  
	 
	Shalom, Ross



	
________________________________

	Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products
<http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop0003000000000
1>  and top money wasters
<http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolto
p00030000000002>  of 2007.

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 27 14:54:16 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:54:16 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
In-Reply-To: <c8e.18fe1d8d.347dd94f@aol.com>
References: <c8e.18fe1d8d.347dd94f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W41FD4418147290E4A3409FBA760@phx.gbl>


Wow!  That looks spectacular, Ross!


From: RNDAVAR at aol.comDate: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:34:23 -0500To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site

I changed the look of the website over the last 24 hours.  You may need to refresh to see the changes.  Check it out.
 
I am open for constructive feedback.  
 
Shalom, Ross


Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Tue Nov 27 15:13:02 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:13:02 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
In-Reply-To: <c8e.18fe1d8d.347dd94f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5655@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Really nice Ross.  Much more intuitive.

 

John C.

"Be Excellent to Each Other!"

                      Bill & Ted

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:34 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site

 

I changed the look of the website over the last 24 hours.  You may need
to refresh to see the changes.  Check it out.

 

I am open for constructive feedback.  

 

Shalom, Ross





________________________________

Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products
<http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop0003000000000
1>  and top money wasters
<http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolto
p00030000000002>  of 2007.

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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue Nov 27 15:21:56 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:21:56 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
In-Reply-To: <c8e.18fe1d8d.347dd94f@aol.com>
References: <c8e.18fe1d8d.347dd94f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C9FF52AC3476FE-F88-2828@webmail-dd01.sysops.aol.com>


Hey Ross,



? It looks GREAT, very well done...In case I haven't said it before, your willingness to establish DIALOGUE is a truly wonderful thing.? One can never learn if they never take the time to listen to someone else....we ALL have something to teach...



?? Well, that's it for now - got to get back to breaking those BIG rocks into little ones.... 

Shalom Y'all (am I finally spelling it right?),

?????????? Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 3:34 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site




I changed the look of the website over the last 24 hours.? You may need to refresh to see the changes.? Check it out.

?

I am open for constructive feedback.? 

?

Shalom, Ross




Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.



_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Tue Nov 27 15:27:40 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:27:40 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
In-Reply-To: <8C9FF52AC3476FE-F88-2828@webmail-dd01.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5656@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

You got it Hanoch.  It took me awhile too.  ;-{)}

 

John C.

"Be Excellent to Each Other!"

                      Bill & Ted

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:22 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site

 

Hey Ross,

 

  It looks GREAT, very well done...In case I haven't said it before,
your willingness to establish DIALOGUE is a truly wonderful thing.  One
can never learn if they never take the time to listen to someone
else....we ALL have something to teach...

 

   Well, that's it for now - got to get back to breaking those BIG rocks
into little ones.... 

Shalom Y'all (am I finally spelling it right?),

           Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 3:34 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site

I changed the look of the website over the last 24 hours.  You may need
to refresh to see the changes.  Check it out.

 

I am open for constructive feedback.  

 

Shalom, Ross





________________________________

Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products
<http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop0003000000000
1>  and top money wasters
<http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolto
p00030000000002>  of 2007.

_______________________________________________
________________________________


More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?nci
d=aolcmp00050000000003> !

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Tue Nov 27 15:27:12 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:27:12 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
Message-ID: <c8e.190010ff.347de5b0@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 11/27/2007 3:23:03 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
youngbarzel at aol.com writes:

One can  never learn if they never take the time to listen to someone 
else....we ALL  have something to teach...


Check out the quote on my splash page from Mishna Avoth;
 
The timid student doesn't learn, the stern teacher does not educate.
 
I am still tweaking on the site to get it the way I want it.  It may  be 
slightly different every time you check it out.  But hopefully I will  settle on 
something soon.
 
I am thinking and praying about Annapolis.......
 
Shalom, Ross



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue Nov 27 15:43:37 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:43:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
In-Reply-To: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5656@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
Message-ID: <8C9FF55B38F65B8-F88-29BF@webmail-dd01.sysops.aol.com>

Hey John - 

???? I just don't want to embarrass anyone with my New Yawk accent :-)??LOL

???? You know, I didn't think I HAD an accent until I started going to UIWU meetings!? Compared to the way they speak here in Brooklyn, I actually sounded educated growing up in the Bronx!

????? To everyone who has been spared living in/near NYC....please pardon the inside humor.? You see, I actually DO have a sense of humor, too!!

????????????? Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: CARLSON, JOHN S <JCARLSO at entergy.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 4:27 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site




You got it Hanoch.? It took me awhile too. ?;-{)}

?


John C.

"Be Excellent to Each Other!"

????????????????????? Bill & Ted


?

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:22 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site

?


Hey Ross,



?



? It looks GREAT, very well done...In case I haven't said it before, your willingness to establish DIALOGUE is a truly wonderful thing.? One can never learn if they never take the time to listen to someone else....we ALL have something to teach...



?



?? Well, that's it for now - got to get back to breaking those BIG rocks into little ones.... 



Shalom Y'all (am I finally spelling it right?),



?????????? Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 3:34 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site




I changed the look of the website over the last 24 hours.? You may need to refresh to see the changes.? Check it out.



?



I am open for constructive feedback.? 



?



Shalom, Ross









Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.




_______________________________________________





More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!





_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue Nov 27 15:38:46 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:38:46 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
In-Reply-To: <c8e.190010ff.347de5b0@aol.com>
References: <c8e.190010ff.347de5b0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C9FF5506487C32-F88-2963@webmail-dd01.sysops.aol.com>


Shalom Ross,



??? Keep going guy, you're doing GREAT!!? And keep praying about Annapolis, but this is just the start, we have to build strength for a longggggg? fight.? Think of it as the Sons (and Daughters!) of Light against the Sons of Darkness...



???? Does that terminology strike a familiar cord?? :-)? The biggest problem are the Hellenists...those who would subvert Israel from within.? Interesting that Chanukah is so soon....That was the original war against the Hellenists, and their allies from Greece/Syria.? But more on that another day...

???? Be strong and have courage...
????????????????? Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 4:27 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site





In a message dated 11/27/2007 3:23:03 P.M. Central Standard Time, youngbarzel at aol.com writes:

One can never learn if they never take the time to listen to someone else....we ALL have something to teach...




Check out the quote on my splash page from Mishna Avoth;

?

The timid student doesn't learn, the stern teacher does not educate.

?

I am still tweaking on the site to get it the way I want it.? It may be slightly different every time you check it out.? But hopefully I will settle on something soon.

?

I am thinking and praying about Annapolis.......

?

Shalom, Ross




Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.



_______________________________________________


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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Nov 27 20:36:11 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:36:11 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <BAY115-W4732DF5664867BAE50F38BA760@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <019101c83167$70cfacb0$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Hanoch, may I add my thank-you to your words and the brachot (blessing).  I
love the tradition of blessing the children each Sabbath; after lighting the
candles.  Although our daughters are all grown now and have children of
their own, I still sing the Aaronic Benediction to them as if they and all
our grandchildren were sitting around the Sabbath table with us. 

 

 As far as knowing what is important and what is not, that is a beautiful
addition to the blessing.  What a difference that could make in our lives if
we actually took the extra time to try to discern that difference.  It seems
to me that for many of us, our lives become more and more complex.  As so
many things come at us from so many directions, the focus often becomes what
has been termed "the tyranny of the urgent;"  and it takes godly wisdom and
discernment to remain level headed and focused on what is really important
during these hectic times.

 

Your point about each of needing to form our own relationship with G-d,
HaShem, as did our fathers/forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is so
true.  A quote from a book I read years ago comes to mind here, "G-d has no
grandchildren.only children."  I believe it was written by Catherine
Marshall, wife of evangelist, Billy Graham. I have not thought of that
particular quote in a long time, but I remember how profoundly it affected
me the first time I read it.  I think that it is related to the same topic.
We may have been brought into this world and into a relationship with our
Creator thru our parents, and that is a blessing, to have been brought up in
a home where G-d is revered and honored. 

 

That, after all, is why G-d chose Abraham in the first place.because He knew
that he would teach his children and then his children would teach their
children and so on, (dor v' dor) from generation to generation, down thru
the ages.   But when it comes to establishing a relationship with Him, it is
something that we each need to develop ourselves.  We are each His children,
and we are each distinct and unique.

 

Thank-you, Hanoch for bringing this up so clearly.  May we continue to pray
for our Beloved Israel and for one another.  I am thankful for you all.  

 

Love and Blessings,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:54 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

 

So beautifully said, Hanoch.   And thank you for the brachot.  What wisdom
it is to bless your children, as your teacher did, with knowing the
difference between what is important and what is not.  That's so perfectly
simple and profound.
 
May Hashem hear our voices, and grant our appeal as we each pray this day
for our Home, Israel, and our holy city, Jerusalem.   And may He protect us
all from Amalek.
 
Shalom-shalom,
 
Pat
 
 
 
  



  _____  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:23:25 -0500
From: youngbarzel at aol.com
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

Shalom to all, 

     With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I
write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a
"congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is
you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across as disjointed, I
apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head'  It
seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh......

      In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to
pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy.  As
we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our
shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which
is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no
advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on
our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on....
EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.  

     The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the
'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or
benedictions).  The first two sentences are the following (transliterated
Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei
Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is simple, the meaning behind
it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of
Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."

 

     The obvious question is - why the redundancy?  After all, the G-d of
Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why
does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what I learned, many, many
years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:

    HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or
forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own,
distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but
Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham,
or each other, for that matter.  

     So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem,
to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up
for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.  Who knows which of us may
be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees??

    We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at
stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my
daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot
(blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our
People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed
Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his
children:  "And may you always know the difference between what's important,
and what's not."  

 

    May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new
ones....


    B'Ahavat Yisrael,
             Hanoch

 

  _____  

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=ao
lcmp00050000000003> !

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov 27 20:57:02 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 02:57:02 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
Message-ID: <112820070257.20572.474CD8F4000AC9EB0000505C22243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Hanoch,

Yeah I know what you mean.  My wife loves to watch police drama's on TV and there is always someone from Brooklyn in them.  I cringe everytime I hear the old accent.  Fortunately I have managed to lose most of mine over the years, my family in NY keeps telling me to tawk right!  Although the other day someone down here accused me of being from New Jersey ;-{(} (my apologies to anyone on the list from New Jersey).

Oh well.

Did you know that there is a section of New Orleans where they actually developed an accent very similar to Brooklynese?  Makes ya wonder.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- 

Hey John - 

     I just don't want to embarrass anyone with my New Yawk accent :-)  LOL

     You know, I didn't think I HAD an accent until I started going to UIWU meetings!  Compared to the way they speak here in Brooklyn, I actually sounded educated growing up in the Bronx!

      To everyone who has been spared living in/near NYC....please pardon the inside humor.  You see, I actually DO have a sense of humor, too!!

              Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: CARLSON, JOHN S <JCARLSO at entergy.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 4:27 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site


You got it Hanoch.  It took me awhile too.  ;-{)}

John C.
"Be Excellent to Each Other!"
                      Bill & Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:22 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site

Hey Ross,

  It looks GREAT, very well done...In case I haven't said it before, your willingness to establish DIALOGUE is a truly wonderful thing.  One can never learn if they never take the time to listen to someone else....we ALL have something to teach...

   Well, that's it for now - got to get back to breaking those BIG rocks into little ones.... 
Shalom Y'all (am I finally spelling it right?),
           Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 3:34 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
I changed the look of the website over the last 24 hours.  You may need to refresh to see the changes.  Check it out.

I am open for constructive feedback.  

Shalom, Ross






Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
_______________________________________________



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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov 27 21:03:23 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 03:03:23 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site
Message-ID: <112820070303.6018.474CDA7A0006D54A0000178222243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

How about those who love G-d and those who love themselves?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Shalom Ross,

    Keep going guy, you're doing GREAT!!  And keep praying about Annapolis, but this is just the start, we have to build strength for a longggggg  fight.  Think of it as the Sons (and Daughters!) of Light against the Sons of Darkness...

     Does that terminology strike a familiar cord?  :-)  The biggest problem are the Hellenists...those who would subvert Israel from within.  Interesting that Chanukah is so soon....That was the original war against the Hellenists, and their allies from Greece/Syria.  But more on that another day...

     Be strong and have courage...
                  Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 4:27 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] New Look on Web site


In a message dated 11/27/2007 3:23:03 P.M. Central Standard Time, youngbarzel at aol.com writes:
One can never learn if they never take the time to listen to someone else....we ALL have something to teach...
Check out the quote on my splash page from Mishna Avoth;

The timid student doesn't learn, the stern teacher does not educate.

I am still tweaking on the site to get it the way I want it.  It may be slightly different every time you check it out.  But hopefully I will settle on something soon.

I am thinking and praying about Annapolis.......

Shalom, Ross






Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
_______________________________________________



More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov 27 21:14:18 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 03:14:18 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <112820070314.2480.474CDD050009890D000009B022243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

It's amazing to me how the same thoughts keep running through our minds independantly.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" <bkgivin at charter.net>: -------------- 


Hanoch, may I add my thank-you to your words and the brachot (blessing).  I love the tradition of blessing the children each Sabbath; after lighting the candles.  Although our daughters are all grown now and have children of their own, I still sing the Aaronic Benediction to them as if they and all our grandchildren were sitting around the Sabbath table with us. 
 
 As far as knowing what is important and what is not, that is a beautiful addition to the blessing.  What a difference that could make in our lives if we actually took the extra time to try to discern that difference.  It seems to me that for many of us, our lives become more and more complex.  As so many things come at us from so many directions, the focus often becomes what has been termed ?the tyranny of the urgent;?  and it takes godly wisdom and discernment to remain level headed and focused on what is really important during these hectic times.
 
Your point about each of needing to form our own relationship with G-d, HaShem, as did our fathers/forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is so true.  A quote from a book I read years ago comes to mind here, ?G-d has no grandchildren?only children.?  I believe it was written by Catherine Marshall, wife of evangelist, Billy Graham. I have not thought of that particular quote in a long time, but I remember how profoundly it affected me the first time I read it.  I think that it is related to the same topic.  We may have been brought into this world and into a relationship with our Creator thru our parents, and that is a blessing, to have been brought up in a home where G-d is revered and honored. 
 
That, after all, is why G-d chose Abraham in the first place?because He knew that he would teach his children and then his children would teach their children and so on, (dor v? dor) from generation to generation, down thru the ages.   But when it comes to establishing a relationship with Him, it is something that we each need to develop ourselves.  We are each His children, and we are each distinct and unique.
 
Thank-you, Hanoch for bringing this up so clearly.  May we continue to pray for our Beloved Israel and for one another.  I am thankful for you all.  
 
Love and Blessings,
 
Betty/Elisheva
 
 
 
 
 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:54 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
 
So beautifully said, Hanoch.   And thank you for the brachot.  What wisdom it is to bless your children, as your teacher did, with knowing the difference between what is important and what is not.  That's so perfectly simple and profound.
 
May Hashem hear our voices, and grant our appeal as we each pray this day for our Home, Israel, and our holy city, Jerusalem.   And may He protect us all from Amalek.
 
Shalom-shalom,
 
Pat
 
 
 
  





To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:23:25 -0500
From: youngbarzel at aol.com
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Shalom to all, 

     With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across as disjointed, I apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head'  It seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh......

      In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy.  As we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on.... EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.  

     The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or benedictions).  The first two sentences are the following (transliterated Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is simple, the meaning behind it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
 
     The obvious question is - why the redundancy?  After all, the G-d of Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what I learned, many, many years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:

    HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own, distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham, or each other, for that matter.  

     So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem, to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael.  We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.  Who knows which of us may be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees??

    We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his children:  "And may you always know the difference between what's important, and what's not."  
 
    May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new ones....

    B'Ahavat Yisrael,
             Hanoch
 



More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov 27 21:22:27 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 03:22:27 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <112820070322.23456.474CDEF300007A1E00005BA022243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

... Our Father, which art in heaven...
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Nov 27 22:06:31 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:06:31 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <112820070322.23456.474CDEF300007A1E00005BA022243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <01c001c83174$0f31abe0$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Absolutely!!!

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
chattertonw at bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:22 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

 

... Our Father, which art in heaven...

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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Wed Nov 28 12:55:48 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:55:48 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."
Message-ID: <8CA00076CC92964-FDC-62AA@WEBMAIL-MC16.sysops.aol.com>

Shalom to all,

You know, you can tell the era that I grew up in by the song lyrics I tend to quote (although I never was much of an AC DC fan..).? But after the statements made yesterday, after the Annapolis Surrender Summit, those lyrics kept resonating in my brain.? And Israel seems determined to go through with this national suicide.

?When the Prime Minister of Israel is quoted as saying," We are prepared to make a painful compromise, rife with risks, in order to realize these aspirations," then you can understand why I think we're on the "Highway to Hell!"? We are expected to give and give, which only emboldens the islamo-nazis even further.? 

Firstly, and most importantly, Israel is G-d's LAND, which he gave to HIS people as an everlasting possession.? There was no leasing to subtenants, and no bartering it away.? Second, surrendering any part of Eretz Yisrael does not bring even one minute of peace...not at all.? Just look at what's happened once the Oslo War started (2000).

?I am astounded at how incredibly masochistic we are....we arm them, they kill us, and we reward them; what's wrong with this picture??? Yes, this IS the Highway to Hell!

?More on this another time, but keep praying, keep writing to your elected officials and never, ever give up hope.??

?B'Ahavat HaMoledet,
???? Hanoch
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From info at poweredbyhadavar.com  Wed Nov 28 13:12:17 2007
From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:12:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."
Message-ID: <652136.58580.qm@web1015.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Hanoch,  I must admit sometimes I am not sure what do about all of this, peace treaty etc.  I have family members who live in Israel and I want to shout at those people making those decisions for us.  Can I shout all I want and yet this might be part of HIS plan?  If this is not a plan by G-d, then maybe my prayers can make a difference.  I find myself just asking G-d to help me get thru this if this is part of HIS end time plan.  I was thinking of Daniel this week how G-D protected him in the midst of the Lions.  YHVH protect my family in the middle of these end time plans the prophets have spoken about.

Rick



----- Original Message ----
From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" <youngbarzel at aol.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 12:55:48 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."

 Shalom to all,
 
 You know, you can tell the era that I grew up in by the song lyrics I tend to quote (although I never was much of an AC DC fan..).  But after the statements made yesterday, after the Annapolis Surrender Summit, those lyrics kept resonating in my brain.  And Israel seems determined to go through with this national suicide.
 
  When the Prime Minister of Israel is quoted as saying," We are prepared to make a painful compromise, rife with risks, in order to realize these aspirations," then you can understand why I think we're on the "Highway to Hell!"  We are expected to give and give, which only emboldens the islamo-nazis even further.  
 
 Firstly, and most importantly, Israel is G-d's LAND, which he gave to HIS people as an everlasting possession.  There was no leasing to subtenants, and no bartering it away.  Second, surrendering any part of Eretz Yisrael does not bring even one minute of peace...not at all.  Just look at what's happened once the Oslo War started (2000).
 
  I am astounded at how incredibly masochistic we are....we arm them, they kill us, and we reward them; what's wrong with this picture??  Yes, this IS the Highway to Hell!
 
  More on this another time, but keep praying, keep writing to your elected officials and never, ever give up hope.  
 
  B'Ahavat HaMoledet,
      Hanoch  More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail!
 
 


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From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Wed Nov 28 13:14:47 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:14:47 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."
In-Reply-To: <652136.58580.qm@web1015.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F549@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

... touch not mine anointed...

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
	Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:12 PM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."
	
	
	Hanoch,  I must admit sometimes I am not sure what do about all
of this, peace treaty etc.  I have family members who live in Israel and
I want to shout at those people making those decisions for us.  Can I
shout all I want and yet this might be part of HIS plan?  If this is not
a plan by G-d, then maybe my prayers can make a difference.  I find
myself just asking G-d to help me get thru this if this is part of HIS
end time plan.  I was thinking of Daniel this week how G-D protected him
in the midst of the Lions.  YHVH protect my family in the middle of
these end time plans the prophets have spoken about.
	
	Rick
	
	
	
	
	----- Original Message ----
	From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" <youngbarzel at aol.com>
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 12:55:48 PM
	Subject: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."
	
	Shalom to all,
	
	You know, you can tell the era that I grew up in by the song
lyrics I tend to quote (although I never was much of an AC DC fan..).
But after the statements made yesterday, after the Annapolis Surrender
Summit, those lyrics kept resonating in my brain.  And Israel seems
determined to go through with this national suicide.
	
	 When the Prime Minister of Israel is quoted as saying," We are
prepared to make a painful compromise, rife with risks, in order to
realize these aspirations," then you can understand why I think we're on
the "Highway to Hell!"  We are expected to give and give, which only
emboldens the islamo-nazis even further.  
	
	Firstly, and most importantly, Israel is G-d's LAND, which he
gave to HIS people as an everlasting possession.  There was no leasing
to subtenants, and no bartering it away.  Second, surrendering any part
of Eretz Yisrael does not bring even one minute of peace...not at all.
Just look at what's happened once the Oslo War started (2000).
	
	 I am astounded at how incredibly masochistic we are....we arm
them, they kill us, and we reward them; what's wrong with this picture??
Yes, this IS the Highway to Hell!
	
	 More on this another time, but keep praying, keep writing to
your elected officials and never, ever give up hope.  
	
	 B'Ahavat HaMoledet,
	     Hanoch 
________________________________

	More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?nci
d=aolcmp00050000000003> !
	


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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Wed Nov 28 13:07:32 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:07:32 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] you need to know who you're dealing with
Message-ID: <8CA00091052893A-1374-26C0@webmail-mf06.sysops.aol.com>

Shalom to all - 

?? There is one Internet site that I want every single person to see, and pass on to their friends and neighbors.? It doesn't matter if you're Christian, Jewish, Ephramite, Noahide or Buddist.? Go to:

???????????????????? www.Thereligionofpeace.com?

??? Ross - this should be on your site for those people who just don't 'get it..'

??????????????????????? Hanoch

________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Wed Nov 28 14:24:25 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:24:25 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."
In-Reply-To: <652136.58580.qm@web1015.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <652136.58580.qm@web1015.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CA0013CD82C6E9-354-2C0E@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>


Dear Rick, 



???? Thank you for your note.? You know, sometimes, I think people never read what I've written, and just delete - must be a relic of a childhood with a poor self-image, or some insanity like that...
?
???? After reading your note, here are my thoughts, and they're my personal opinions.?? So, you, or anyone else ('any of y'all' as Ross would have me say it..) can feel free to disagree. But here goes:

??? We have NO way of knowing what G-d's plan is, or even, might be. We can, and SHOULD shout and do all we can - maybe that's G-d's very intent!? As someone once said, "Pray as if only G-d will make something happen, and act as if only WE can make something happen."??

????End times scenarios are really scary stuff, no doubt about it.? Now this is NOT an area of my expertise (or even an area that I've delved into much), here are some things that I learned from my teacher, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d avenge his blood).? Once, when teaching us about the period of redemption, quoted a verse from the prophet Hosea (I'll look up the verse tomorrow, sorry, I don't have it available); it said: "....bita achisheyna"? - "In its time, I will hurry it...."? 

???? Now of course, that begs the question, if something has a 'set time' how can it be hurried??? And here's the answer: G-d has established a fixed time, that whether or not people deserve it, the world will be redeemed ("..in its time...").? And this will be proceeded with suffering, destruction and horrors that the world has never experienced before (the Rabbinic sages have often been quoted as praying that they will not live in the time of the 'footsteps of the Messiah")?? 

???? However, If G-d's people merit the redemption, then it will come swiftly, with glory and without suffering.? So our task Rick, is to make sure to merit the redemption.....

???? HOW can we do that?!?!? Well, keep coming to Ross' classes, I'm certain he'll get to it!!? :-)

???? And by the way, I pray for my daughters safety in Israel several times a day.? Although, honestly - I think she'll do much better in the?TRUE end of days, then I will if (G-d forbid) I stay in New York.

???? Best regards, and thanks again for your comments,

??????????????? Hanoch

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Gozhanskij <info at poweredbyhadavar.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 2:12 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."





Hanoch,? I must admit sometimes I am not sure what do about all of this, peace treaty etc.? I have family members who live in Israel and I want to shout at those people making those decisions for us.? Can I shout all I want and yet this might be part of HIS plan?? If this is not a plan by G-d, then maybe my prayers can make a difference.? I find myself just asking G-d to help me get thru this if this is part of HIS end time plan.? I was thinking of Daniel this week how G-D protected him in the midst of the Lions.? YHVH protect my family in the middle of these end time plans the prophets have spoken about.

Rick




----- Original Message ----
From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" <youngbarzel at aol.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 12:55:48 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."

Shalom to all,

You know, you can tell the era that I grew up in by the song lyrics I tend to quote (although I never was much of an AC DC fan..).? But after the statements made yesterday, after the Annapolis Surrender Summit, those lyrics kept resonating in my brain.? And Israel seems determined to go through with this national suicide.

?When the Prime Minister of Israel is quoted as saying," We are prepared to make a painful compromise, rife with risks, in order to realize these aspirations," then you can understand why I think we're on the "Highway to Hell!"? We are expected to give and give, which only emboldens the islamo-nazis even further.? 

Firstly, and most importantly, Israel is G-d's LAND, which he gave to HIS people as an everlasting possession.? There was no leasing to subtenants, and no bartering it away.? Second, surrendering any part of Eretz Yisrael does not bring even one minute of peace...not at all.? Just look at what's happened once the Oslo War started (2000).

?I am astounded at how incredibly masochistic we are....we arm them, they kill us, and we reward them; what's wrong with this picture??? Yes, this IS the Highway to Hell!

?More on this another time, but keep praying, keep writing to your elected officials and never, ever give up hope.??

?B'Ahavat HaMoledet,
???? Hanoch
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!








_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From info at poweredbyhadavar.com  Wed Nov 28 14:49:32 2007
From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:49:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."
Message-ID: <421409.32791.qm@web1007.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Hanoch, Thank you for you comments and I can understand that.  As for you daughter and my family that are in Israel, I agree with you and I think I and they are much better off in the Land that G-d has given our forefathers.  One day I will be home too.

And I do read what you write.

Blessings my brother

Rick
(Levi Ben-Yisrael)

----- Original Message ----
From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" <youngbarzel at aol.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 2:24:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."


Dear Rick, 



 



     Thank you for your note.  You know, sometimes, I think people never read what I've written, and just delete - must be a relic of a childhood with a poor self-image, or some insanity like that...

 

     After reading your note, here are my thoughts, and they're my personal opinions.   So, you, or anyone else ('any of y'all' as Ross would have me say it..) can feel free to disagree. But here goes:



    We have NO way of knowing what G-d's plan is, or even, might be. We can, and SHOULD shout and do all we can - maybe that's G-d's very intent!  As someone once said, "Pray as if only G-d will make something happen, and act as if only WE can make something happen."  



    End times scenarios are really scary stuff, no doubt about it.  Now this is NOT an area of my expertise (or even an area that I've delved into much), here are some things that I learned from my teacher, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d avenge his blood).  Once, when teaching us about the period of redemption, quoted a verse from the prophet Hosea (I'll look up the verse tomorrow, sorry, I don't have it available); it said: "....bita achisheyna"  - "In its time, I will hurry it...."  



     Now of course, that begs the question, if something has a 'set time' how can it be hurried?   And here's the answer: G-d has established a fixed time, that whether or not people deserve it, the world will be redeemed ("..in its time...").  And this will be proceeded with suffering, destruction and horrors that the world has never experienced before (the Rabbinic sages have often been quoted as praying that they will not live in the time of the 'footsteps of the Messiah")   



     However, If G-d's people merit the redemption, then it will come swiftly, with glory and without suffering.  So our task Rick, is to make sure to merit the redemption.....



     HOW can we do that?!?!  Well, keep coming to Ross' classes, I'm certain he'll get to it!!  :-)



     And by the way, I pray for my daughters safety in Israel several times a day.  Although, honestly - I think she'll do much better in the TRUE end of days, then I will if (G-d forbid) I stay in New York.



     Best regards, and thanks again for your comments,



                Hanoch



-----Original Message-----

From: Rick Gozhanskij <info at poweredbyhadavar.com>

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 2:12 pm

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."













Hanoch,  I must admit sometimes I am not sure what do about all of this, peace treaty etc.  I have family members who live in Israel and I want to shout at those people making those decisions for us.  Can I shout all I want and yet this might be part of HIS plan?  If this is not a plan by G-d, then maybe my prayers can make a difference.  I find myself just asking G-d to help me get thru this if this is part of HIS end time plan.  I was thinking of Daniel this week how G-D protected him in the midst of the Lions.  YHVH protect my family in the middle of these end time plans the prophets have spoken about.



Rick









----- Original Message ----

From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" <youngbarzel at aol.com>

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 12:55:48 PM

Subject: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."



Shalom to all,



You know, you can tell the era that I grew up in by the song lyrics I tend to quote (although I never was much of an AC DC fan..).  But after the statements made yesterday, after the Annapolis Surrender Summit, those lyrics kept resonating in my brain.  And Israel seems determined to go through with this national suicide.



 When the Prime Minister of Israel is quoted as saying," We are prepared to make a painful compromise, rife with risks, in order to realize these aspirations," then you can understand why I think we're on the "Highway to Hell!"  We are expected to give and give, which only emboldens the islamo-nazis even further.  



Firstly, and most importantly, Israel is G-d's LAND, which he gave to HIS people as an everlasting possession.  There was no leasing to subtenants, and no bartering it away.  Second, surrendering any part of Eretz Yisrael does not bring even one minute of peace...not at all.  Just look at what's happened once the Oslo War started (2000).



 I am astounded at how incredibly masochistic we are....we arm them, they kill us, and we reward them; what's wrong with this picture??  Yes, this IS the Highway to Hell!



 More on this another time, but keep praying, keep writing to your elected officials and never, ever give up hope.  



 B'Ahavat HaMoledet,

     Hanoch



More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!















_______________________________________________





-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________




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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Wed Nov 28 15:17:35 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:17:35 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
Message-ID: <8CA001B3B4C2009-354-3007@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>

Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!

?My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but haven't used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try to lead what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish lifestyle.? I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends and students, even more then coming from New York City!? :-)

?Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it kind of a long saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a "traditionally observant" (I truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, although not terribly knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with the equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).? What kept from assimilating, was the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx, where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.? None of the neighborhood?girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it kept me Jewish.

? I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. - 7,200 boys, not a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me to get a substantial scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer after I graduated H.S., which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be smart, so I had skiped a grade).? I remember it costs of folks (Of Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with this Board of Jewish Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.? It was amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.???

?? That September I started college, and I always wondered what my commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not broken out in early October 1973.? This galvanized me into action (and a lifelong ad to studying every aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit later), and I began getting involved in Jewish activist movements.? You've got to remember that the time was ripe with demonstrations and civil disobedience.? There was the Black Panther Party, the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.? And then there was the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....

??Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in as a youth (in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth Movement.? It was throrugh Betar that I did my first series of "activist/militant" activities and learned to shoot (which you guys down South larn early on, right?). The JDL (which out Wikipedia for some background), which was started?by Rav Kahane (who?turned out to be THE dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that at that time...), sort of speaks for itself.

???Most of the really?interesting stuff I was involved with, well, let's just say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully while we're walking around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given away?by then..).? There was some really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I?actually hold the distinction of having been arrested (for Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different continents.?But still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!

? This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out, wondering why he encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop now.? Next chapter will include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun stuff.

?????????????? more to follow in Part II
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Wed Nov 28 15:23:49 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:23:49 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <8CA001B3B4C2009-354-3007@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F550@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

I see I am in good company - pleased to meet you, my brother! 

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
youngbarzel at aol.com
	Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:18 PM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
	
	
	Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!
	
	 My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but
haven't used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try
to lead what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish
lifestyle.  I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends
and students, even more then coming from New York City!  :-)
	
	 Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it
kind of a long saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a
"traditionally observant" (I truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but
was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, although not terribly
knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with the
equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).  What kept from assimilating, was
the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx,
where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.  None of the neighborhood
girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it
kept me Jewish.
	
	  I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. -
7,200 boys, not a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me
to get a substantial scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer
after I graduated H.S., which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be
smart, so I had skiped a grade).  I remember it costs of folks (Of
Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with this Board of Jewish
Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.  It was
amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.

	
	   That September I started college, and I always wondered what
my commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not
broken out in early October 1973.  This galvanized me into action (and a
lifelong ad to studying every aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit
later), and I began getting involved in Jewish activist movements.
You've got to remember that the time was ripe with demonstrations and
civil disobedience.  There was the Black Panther Party, the Latino,
Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.  And then there was the
Jewish Defense League and Betar.....
	
	  Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in
as a youth (in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth
Movement.  It was throrugh Betar that I did my first series of
"activist/militant" activities and learned to shoot (which you guys down
South larn early on, right?). The JDL (which out Wikipedia for some
background), which was started by Rav Kahane (who turned out to be THE
dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that at that time...),
sort of speaks for itself.
	
	   Most of the really interesting stuff I was involved with,
well, let's just say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully
while we're walking around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given
away by then..).  There was some really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I
actually hold the distinction of having been arrested (for Jewish
causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different continents. But
still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!
	
	  This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out,
wondering why he encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop
now.  Next chapter will include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun
stuff.
	
	               more to follow in Part II 
________________________________

	More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?nci
d=aolcmp00050000000003> !
	

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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Wed Nov 28 15:28:59 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:28:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F550@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
Message-ID: <8CA001CD2AE8026-354-30E1@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>

The pleasure's all mine Walter!


-----Original Message-----
From: CHATTERTON, WALTER G <WCHATTE at entergy.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:23 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I



I see I am in good company - pleased to meet you, my brother! 




-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:18 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I


Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!

?My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but haven't used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try to lead what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish lifestyle.? I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends and students, even more then coming from New York City!? :-)

?Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it kind of a long saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a "traditionally observant" (I truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, although not terribly knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with the equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).? What kept from assimilating, was the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx, where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.? None of the neighborhood?girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it kept me Jewish.

? I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. - 7,200 boys, not a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me to get a substantial scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer after I graduated H.S., which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be smart, so I had skiped a grade).? I remember it costs of folks (Of Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with this Board of Jewish Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.? It was amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.???

?? That September I started college, and I always wondered what my commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not broken out in early October 1973.? This galvanized me into action (and a lifelong ad to studying every aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit later), and I began getting involved in Jewish activist movements.? You've got to remember that the time was ripe with demonstrations and civil disobedience.? There was the Black Panther Party, the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.? And then there was the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....

??Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in as a youth (in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth Movement.? It was throrugh Betar that I did my first series of "activist/militant" activities and learned to shoot (which you guys down South larn early on, right?). The JDL (which out Wikipedia for some background), which was started?by Rav Kahane (who?turned out to be THE dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that at that time...), sort of speaks for itself.

???Most of the really?interesting stuff I was involved with, well, let's just say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully while we're walking around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given away?by then..).? There was some really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I?actually hold the distinction of having been arrested (for Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different continents.?But still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!

? This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out, wondering why he encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop now.? Next chapter will include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun stuff.

?????????????? more to follow in Part II 
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!





_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Wed Nov 28 15:42:36 2007
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:42:36 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <8C9FF421DDD5333-C58-2251@MBLK-M27.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C9FF421DDD5333-C58-2251@MBLK-M27.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <C79F154C9D4C460FA5E3309D011CBC81@DickLPC>

Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
      Just a question I have had in my mind for some time.  Do you think it would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers to use in there prayers, "God of YeShua".
   Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of Israel"  " not as God".
  Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...


  Shalom to all, 

       With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across as disjointed, I apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head'  It seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh......

        In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy.  As we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on.... EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.  

       The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or benedictions).  The first two sentences are the following (transliterated Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is simple, the meaning behind it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."

       The obvious question is - why the redundancy?  After all, the G-d of Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what I learned, many, many years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:

      HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own, distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham, or each other, for that matter.  

       So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem, to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael.  We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.  Who knows which of us may be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees??

      We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his children:  "And may you always know the difference between what's important, and what's not."  

      May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new ones....

      B'Ahavat Yisrael,
               Hanoch


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From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Wed Nov 28 15:47:12 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:47:12 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <8CA001B3B4C2009-354-3007@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F551@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Hanoch,
 
So that all the rest of my 'buddies' here don't gig me too bad - please
feel free to call me by my middle name, Glenn. I use Walter for
business, and my mother uses it to scold me!

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
youngbarzel at aol.com
	Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:18 PM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
	
	
	Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!
	
	 My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but
haven't used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try
to lead what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish
lifestyle.  I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends
and students, even more then coming from New York City!  :-)
	
	 Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it
kind of a long saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a
"traditionally observant" (I truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but
was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, although not terribly
knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with the
equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).  What kept from assimilating, was
the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx,
where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.  None of the neighborhood
girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it
kept me Jewish.
	
	  I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. -
7,200 boys, not a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me
to get a substantial scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer
after I graduated H.S., which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be
smart, so I had skiped a grade).  I remember it costs of folks (Of
Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with this Board of Jewish
Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.  It was
amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.

	
	   That September I started college, and I always wondered what
my commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not
broken out in early October 1973.  This galvanized me into action (and a
lifelong ad to studying every aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit
later), and I began getting involved in Jewish activist movements.
You've got to remember that the time was ripe with demonstrations and
civil disobedience.  There was the Black Panther Party, the Latino,
Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.  And then there was the
Jewish Defense League and Betar.....
	
	  Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in
as a youth (in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth
Movement.  It was throrugh Betar that I did my first series of
"activist/militant" activities and learned to shoot (which you guys down
South larn early on, right?). The JDL (which out Wikipedia for some
background), which was started by Rav Kahane (who turned out to be THE
dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that at that time...),
sort of speaks for itself.
	
	   Most of the really interesting stuff I was involved with,
well, let's just say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully
while we're walking around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given
away by then..).  There was some really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I
actually hold the distinction of having been arrested (for Jewish
causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different continents. But
still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!
	
	  This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out,
wondering why he encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop
now.  Next chapter will include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun
stuff.
	
	               more to follow in Part II 
________________________________

	More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?nci
d=aolcmp00050000000003> !
	

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From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Wed Nov 28 15:50:24 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:50:24 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <8CA001B3B4C2009-354-3007@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20071128165025.OTZTC.63509.root@fepweb08>

anxiously awaiting part 2
P.S. I would never just delete one of your posts.
---- youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: 

=============
Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!

?My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but haven't used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try to lead what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish lifestyle.? I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends and students, even more then coming from New York City!? :-)

?Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it kind of a long saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a "traditionally observant" (I truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, although not terribly knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with the equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).? What kept from assimilating, was the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx, where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.? None of the neighborhood?girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it kept me Jewish.

? I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. - 7,200 boys, not a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me to get a substantial scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer after I graduated H.S., which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be smart, so I had skiped a grade).? I remember it costs of folks (Of Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with this Board of Jewish Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.? It was amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.???

?? That September I started college, and I always wondered what my commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not broken out in early October 1973.? This galvanized me into action (and a lifelong ad to studying every aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit later), and I began getting involved in Jewish activist movements.? You've got to remember that the time was ripe with demonstrations and civil disobedience.? There was the Black Panther Party, the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.? And then there was the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....

??Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in as a youth (in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth Movement.? It was throrugh Betar that I did my first series of "activist/militant" activities and learned to shoot (which you guys down South larn early on, right?). The JDL (which out Wikipedia for some background), which was started?by Rav Kahane (who?turned out to be THE dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that at that time...), sort of speaks for itself.

???Most of the really?interesting stuff I was involved with, well, let's just say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully while we're walking around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given away?by then..).? There was some really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I?actually hold the distinction of having been arrested (for Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different continents.?But still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!

? This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out, wondering why he encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop now.? Next chapter will include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun stuff.

?????????????? more to follow in Part II
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003



From youngbarzel at aol.com  Wed Nov 28 15:57:34 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:57:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <20071128165025.OTZTC.63509.root@fepweb08>
Message-ID: <8CA0020D1485725-354-32F9@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>


Thanks Kim!!? You are too sweet!!? And you KNOW I absolutely ADORE your mom, right?!?!



?????????? Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Cc: youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:50 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I




anxiously awaiting part 2
P.S. I would never just delete one of your posts.
---- youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: 

=============
Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!

?My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but haven't used it 
in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try to lead what for lack 
of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish lifestyle.? I guess that 
makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends and students, even more then 
coming from New York City!? :-)

?Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it kind of a long 
saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a "traditionally observant" (I truly 
hate the term "Orthodox") family, but was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, 
although not terribly knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with 
the equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).? What kept from assimilating, was the 
fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx, where I was 
hated, simply for being Jewish.? None of the neighborhood?girls would go out 
with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it kept me Jewish.

? I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. - 7,200 boys, not a 
coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me to get a substantial 
scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer after I graduated H.S., which 
was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be smart, so I had skiped a grade).? I 
remember it costs of folks (Of Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with 
this Board of Jewish Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.? 
It was amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.???

?? That September I started college, and I always wondered what my commitment to 
Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not broken out in early October 
1973.? This galvanized me into action (and a lifelong ad to studying every 
aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit later), and I began getting involved 
in Jewish activist movements.? You've got to remember that the time was ripe 
with demonstrations and civil disobedience.? There was the Black Panther Party, 
the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.? And then there was 
the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....

??Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in as a youth (in 
Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth Movement.? It was 
throrugh Betar that I did my first series of "activist/militant" activities and 
learned to shoot (which you guys down South larn early on, right?). The JDL 
(which out Wikipedia for some background), which was started?by Rav Kahane 
(who?turned out to be THE dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that 
at that time...), sort of speaks for itself.

???Most of the really?interesting stuff I was involved with, well, let's just 
say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully while we're walking around 
Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given away?by then..).? There was some 
really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I?actually hold the distinction of having 
been arrested (for Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different 
continents.?But still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!

? This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out, wondering why he 
encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop now.? Next chapter will 
include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun stuff.

?????????????? more to follow in Part II
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - 
http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003

_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Wed Nov 28 15:56:07 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:56:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F551@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
Message-ID: <8CA00209CE5A37F-354-32D9@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>

Glenn, you're covered, my friend!?? :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: CHATTERTON, WALTER G <WCHATTE at entergy.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:47 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I



Hanoch,

?

So that all the rest of my 'buddies' here don't gig me too bad - please feel free to call me by my middle name, Glenn. I use Walter for business, and my mother uses it to scold me!




-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:18 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I


Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!

?My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but haven't used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try to lead what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish lifestyle.? I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends and students, even more then coming from New York City!? :-)

?Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it kind of a long saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a "traditionally observant" (I truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, although not terribly knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with the equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).? What kept from assimilating, was the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx, where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.? None of the neighborhood?girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it kept me Jewish.

? I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. - 7,200 boys, not a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me to get a substantial scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer after I graduated H.S., which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be smart, so I had skiped a grade).? I remember it costs of folks (Of Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with this Board of Jewish Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.? It was amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.???

?? That September I started college, and I always wondered what my commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not broken out in early October 1973.? This galvanized me into action (and a lifelong ad to studying every aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit later), and I began getting involved in Jewish activist movements.? You've got to remember that the time was ripe with demonstrations and civil disobedience.? There was the Black Panther Party, the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.? And then there was the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....

??Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in as a youth (in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth Movement.? It was throrugh Betar that I did my first series of "activist/militant" activities and learned to shoot (which you guys down South larn early on, right?). The JDL (which out Wikipedia for some background), which was started?by Rav Kahane (who?turned out to be THE dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that at that time...), sort of speaks for itself.

???Most of the really?interesting stuff I was involved with, well, let's just say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully while we're walking around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given away?by then..).? There was some really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I?actually hold the distinction of having been arrested (for Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different continents.?But still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!

? This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out, wondering why he encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop now.? Next chapter will include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun stuff.

?????????????? more to follow in Part II 
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!





_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Wed Nov 28 16:14:00 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:14:00 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <8CA00209CE5A37F-354-32D9@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A565E@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Ahh.  We'll find something else to gig him about.

 

 

John C.

"Be Excellent to Each Other!"

                      Bill & Ted

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:56 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I

 

Glenn, you're covered, my friend!   :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: CHATTERTON, WALTER G <WCHATTE at entergy.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:47 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I

Hanoch,

 

So that all the rest of my 'buddies' here don't gig me too bad - please
feel free to call me by my middle name, Glenn. I use Walter for
business, and my mother uses it to scold me!

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?> ] On Behalf Of
youngbarzel at aol.com
	Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:18 PM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I

	Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!
	
	 My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but
haven't used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try
to lead what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish
lifestyle.  I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends
and students, even more then coming from New York City!  :-)
	
	 Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it
kind of a long saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a
"traditionally observant" (I truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but
was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, although not terribly
knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with the
equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).  What kept from assimilating, was
the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx,
where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.  None of the neighborhood
girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it
kept me Jewish.
	
	  I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. -
7,200 boys, not a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me
to get a substantial scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer
after I graduated H.S., which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be
smart, so I had skiped a grade).  I remember it costs of folks (Of
Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with this Board of Jewish
Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.  It was
amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.

	
	   That September I started college, and I always wondered what
my commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not
broken out in early October 1973.  This galvanized me into action (and a
lifelong ad to studying every aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit
later), and I began getting involved in Jewish activist movements.
You've got to remember that the time was ripe with demonstrations and
civil disobedience.  There was the Black Panther Party, the Latino,
Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.  And then there was the
Jewish Defense League and Betar.....
	
	  Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in
as a youth (in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth
Movement.  It was throrugh Betar that I did my first series of
"activist/militant" activities and learned to shoot (which you guys down
South larn early on, right?). The JDL (which out Wikipedia for some
background), which was started by Rav Kahane (who turned out to be THE
dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that at that time...),
sort of speaks for itself.
	
	   Most of the really interesting stuff I was involved with,
well, let's just say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully
while we're walking around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given
away by then..).  There was some really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I
actually hold the distinction of having been arrested (for Jewish
causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different continents. But
still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!
	
	  This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out,
wondering why he encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop
now.  Next chapter will include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun
stuff.
	
	               more to follow in Part II 

	
________________________________


	More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?nci
d=aolcmp00050000000003> !

_______________________________________________
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From WCHATTE at entergy.com  Wed Nov 28 16:15:13 2007
From: WCHATTE at entergy.com (CHATTERTON, WALTER G)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:15:13 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A565E@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth
	.corp.entergy.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F552@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

... plenty of options from which to choose!

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CARLSON, JOHN S
	Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:14 PM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) -
Part I
	Importance: High
	
	

	Ahh.  We'll find something else to gig him about.

	 

	 

	John C.

	"Be Excellent to Each Other!"

	                      Bill & Ted

	 

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
youngbarzel at aol.com
	Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:56 PM
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) -
Part I

	 

	Glenn, you're covered, my friend!   :-)
	
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: CHATTERTON, WALTER G <WCHATTE at entergy.com>
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:47 pm
	Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) -
Part I

	Hanoch,

	 

	So that all the rest of my 'buddies' here don't gig me too bad -
please feel free to call me by my middle name, Glenn. I use Walter for
business, and my mother uses it to scold me!

		-----Original Message-----
		From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?> ] On Behalf Of
youngbarzel at aol.com
		Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:18 PM
		To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
		Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..)
- Part I

		Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!
		
		 My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first'
name, but haven't used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am
Jewish, and try to lead what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a
traditional Jewish lifestyle.  I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity
among Ross' friends and students, even more then coming from New York
City!  :-)
		
		 Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here.
and it kind of a long saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a
"traditionally observant" (I truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but
was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, although not terribly
knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with the
equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).  What kept from assimilating, was
the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx,
where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.  None of the neighborhood
girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it
kept me Jewish.
		
		  I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton
H.S. - 7,200 boys, not a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged
for me to get a substantial scholarship to be able to go to Israel the
summer after I graduated H.S., which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to
be smart, so I had skiped a grade).  I remember it costs of folks (Of
Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with this Board of Jewish
Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.  It was
amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.

		
		   That September I started college, and I always
wondered what my commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur
War not broken out in early October 1973.  This galvanized me into
action (and a lifelong ad to studying every aspect of Judaism, but more
on that a bit later), and I began getting involved in Jewish activist
movements.  You've got to remember that the time was ripe with
demonstrations and civil disobedience.  There was the Black Panther
Party, the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.  And
then there was the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....
		
		  Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had
been in as a youth (in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist
Youth Movement.  It was throrugh Betar that I did my first series of
"activist/militant" activities and learned to shoot (which you guys down
South larn early on, right?). The JDL (which out Wikipedia for some
background), which was started by Rav Kahane (who turned out to be THE
dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that at that time...),
sort of speaks for itself.
		
		   Most of the really interesting stuff I was involved
with, well, let's just say that maybe we can discuss it one day,
hopefully while we're walking around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't
be given away by then..).  There was some really 'hairy' stuff back
then, and I actually hold the distinction of having been arrested (for
Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different continents.
But still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!
		
		  This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair
out, wondering why he encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to
stop now.  Next chapter will include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun
stuff.
		
		               more to follow in Part II 

		
________________________________


		More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?nci
d=aolcmp00050000000003> !

	_______________________________________________

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Nov 28 16:21:29 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:21:29 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <8CA0020D1485725-354-32F9@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <024501c8320d$062e4b40$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Well, that was very nice of you to say, Hanoch! You and Roger and I go back
a long time.mid ninety's I think.I think it was after our conversion, which
was in Tishri of 1993, at one of our UIWU meetings in NY when David Horowitz
was still with us.  Dennis Jones introduced you to all of us then.  BTW, I
can say for both Roger and me that the feeling is mutual.

 

And like mother like daughter (or vice versa), I am also anxiously awaiting
your next post; and I would never delete any of them either.I am learning
too much new stuff about you!

 

Shalom, Shalom!

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:58 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I

 

Thanks Kim!!  You are too sweet!!  And you KNOW I absolutely ADORE your mom,
right?!?!

 

           Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Cc: youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:50 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I

anxiously awaiting part 2
P.S. I would never just delete one of your posts.
---- youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: 
 
=============
Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!
 
?My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but haven't
used it 
in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try to lead what for
lack 
of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish lifestyle.? I guess that 
makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends and students, even more then

coming from New York City!? :-)
 
?Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it kind of a long 
saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a "traditionally observant" (I
truly 
hate the term "Orthodox") family, but was aware and proud of my Jewish
identity, 
although not terribly knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you
with 
the equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).? What kept from assimilating, was
the 
fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx, where I
was 
hated, simply for being Jewish.? None of the neighborhood?girls would go out

with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it kept me Jewish.
 
? I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. - 7,200 boys, not
a 
coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me to get a substantial 
scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer after I graduated H.S.,
which 
was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be smart, so I had skiped a grade).? I 
remember it costs of folks (Of Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel
with 
this Board of Jewish Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7
weeks.? 
It was amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to
it.???
 
?? That September I started college, and I always wondered what my
commitment to 
Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not broken out in early
October 
1973.? This galvanized me into action (and a lifelong ad to studying every 
aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit later), and I began getting
involved 
in Jewish activist movements.? You've got to remember that the time was ripe

with demonstrations and civil disobedience.? There was the Black Panther
Party, 
the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.? And then there
was 
the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....
 
??Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in as a youth
(in 
Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth Movement.? It was 
throrugh Betar that I did my first series of "activist/militant" activities
and 
learned to shoot (which you guys down South larn early on, right?). The JDL 
(which out Wikipedia for some background), which was started?by Rav Kahane 
(who?turned out to be THE dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know
that 
at that time...), sort of speaks for itself.
 
???Most of the really?interesting stuff I was involved with, well, let's
just 
say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully while we're walking
around 
Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given away?by then..).? There was
some 
really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I?actually hold the distinction of
having 
been arrested (for Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three
different 
continents.?But still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!
 
? This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out, wondering why he

encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop now.? Next chapter will

include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun stuff.
 
?????????????? more to follow in Part II
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - 
http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aol
cmp00050000000003
 
_______________________________________________
  _____  

size=2 width="100%" align=center> 

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=ao
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Nov 28 16:27:19 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:27:19 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A350279F551@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
Message-ID: <025001c8320d$d71154a0$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Glen, now I think I have things a little straighter in my mind.  The Walter
was throwing me off.  You and Rhonda sang for us during our Sukkot
gathering.absolutely beautiful.and we were richly blessed! BTW, I am
continuing to enjoy the CD, and if there is anyone out there on this list
that does not have it, I would highly encourage you to order it!  I am
looking forward to the next one; remember you promised that Rhonda would be
on it with you.

 

Shalom and Blessings and greetings to your lovely wife,

 

Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CHATTERTON, WALTER G
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:47 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I

 

Hanoch,

 

So that all the rest of my 'buddies' here don't gig me too bad - please feel
free to call me by my middle name, Glenn. I use Walter for business, and my
mother uses it to scold me!

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:18 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I

Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!

 My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but haven't
used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try to lead
what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish lifestyle.
I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends and students,
even more then coming from New York City!  :-)

 Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it kind of a long
saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a "traditionally observant" (I
truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but was aware and proud of my Jewish
identity, although not terribly knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School'
provides you with the equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).  What kept from
assimilating, was the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood
in the Bronx, where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.  None of the
neighborhood girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise),
but it kept me Jewish.

  I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. - 7,200 boys, not
a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me to get a substantial
scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer after I graduated H.S.,
which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be smart, so I had skiped a grade).
I remember it costs of folks (Of Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel
with this Board of Jewish Education tour, which took me all over Israel for
7 weeks.  It was amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual'
content to it.   

   That September I started college, and I always wondered what my
commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not broken out
in early October 1973.  This galvanized me into action (and a lifelong ad to
studying every aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit later), and I began
getting involved in Jewish activist movements.  You've got to remember that
the time was ripe with demonstrations and civil disobedience.  There was the
Black Panther Party, the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone
else.  And then there was the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....

  Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in as a youth
(in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth Movement.  It was
throrugh Betar that I did my first series of "activist/militant" activities
and learned to shoot (which you guys down South larn early on, right?). The
JDL (which out Wikipedia for some background), which was started by Rav
Kahane (who turned out to be THE dominant influence in my life...but I
didn't know that at that time...), sort of speaks for itself.

   Most of the really interesting stuff I was involved with, well, let's
just say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully while we're walking
around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given away by then..).  There
was some really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I actually hold the distinction
of having been arrested (for Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on
three different continents. But still, never 'convicted' of committing a
crime!

  This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out, wondering why he
encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop now.  Next chapter will
include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun stuff.

               more to follow in Part II 


  _____  


More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=ao
lcmp00050000000003> !

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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Wed Nov 28 17:45:42 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:45:42 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <C79F154C9D4C460FA5E3309D011CBC81@DickLPC>
References: <8C9FF421DDD5333-C58-2251@MBLK-M27.sysops.aol.com>
	<C79F154C9D4C460FA5E3309D011CBC81@DickLPC>
Message-ID: <8CA002FEC2561FB-234C-3B84@mblk-d11.sysops.aol.com>

Hey Dick - 

?? How are you??Thanks for the welcome back, it really makes me happy to be here!? Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an interesting one.? Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority on Jewish Law (Halacha) - I'm barely an amateur!? And I'm certainly not a role model if someone is looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.

?? Having said that, if referring to the G-d of Yeshua is done in the same context as the G-d of any other Jew of history (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak, King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.? 

?? Ross makes it very clear on the website that Yeshua prayed to the G-d of Abraham; the same? ?G-d we pray to.? You DO realize that some Rabbi in Israel is going to hang me one day for having written that, right??? LOL? Only kidding......?? :-)??
?
?? Best regards Dick!
?????? Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
???????????????????? Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...



Nice to hear from you again?Hanoch!

????? Just a question I have had in my mind for some time.??Do you think it would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers to use in there prayers, "God of YeShua".

?? Same God? I believe. He prayed "to the God of Israel"??" not as God".


Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...




Shalom to all, 

???? With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is you, and HaShem, our Creator.? If this comes across as disjointed, I apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head'? It seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh......

????? In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to pray.."? and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy.??As we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no advocate.."? In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on.... EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.? 

???? The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or benedictions).? The first two sentences are the following (transliterated Hebrew, then English):? "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."??? The translation is simple, the meaning behind it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."

?

???? The obvious question is - why the redundancy?? After all, the G-d of Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why does it describe it in THAT manner?? And here's what I learned, many, many years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:

????HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own, distinct relationship with HIM.? Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham, or each other, for that matter.? 

???? So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem, to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael.? We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.? Who knows which of us may be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees??

??? We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at stake.? You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his children:? "And may you always know the difference between what's important, and what's not."? 

?

??? May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new ones....


??? B'Ahavat Yisrael,
???????????? Hanoch

?

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!





_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 28 18:12:00 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:12:00 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <8CA001B3B4C2009-354-3007@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CA001B3B4C2009-354-3007@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W133E3BCFFEB0D5A12DE262BA700@phx.gbl>


This is so cool, Hanoch!  Can't wait to read the next episode!!!!!!  
 
I came in tonight and turned on my computer and couldn't believe all the emails!!!!  How fun is this?  I love it!
 
Pat


To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:17:35 -0500From: youngbarzel at aol.comSubject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part IShalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list! My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but haven't used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try to lead what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish lifestyle.  I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends and students, even more then coming from New York City!  :-) Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it kind of a long saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a "traditionally observant" (I truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, although not terribly knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with the equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).  What kept from assimilating, was the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx, where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.  None of the neighborhood girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it kept me Jewish.  I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. - 7,200 boys, not a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me to get a substantial scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer after I graduated H.S., which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be smart, so I had skiped a grade).  I remember it costs of folks (Of Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with this Board of Jewish Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.  It was amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.      That September I started college, and I always wondered what my commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not broken out in early October 1973.  This galvanized me into action (and a lifelong ad to studying every aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit later), and I began getting involved in Jewish activist movements.  You've got to remember that the time was ripe with demonstrations and civil disobedience.  There was the Black Panther Party, the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.  And then there was the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....  Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in as a youth (in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth Movement.  It was throrugh Betar that I did my first series of "activist/militant" activities and learned to shoot (which you guys down South larn early on, right?). The JDL (which out Wikipedia for some background), which was started by Rav Kahane (who turned out to be THE dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that at that time...), sort of speaks for itself.   Most of the really interesting stuff I was involved with, well, let's just say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully while we're walking around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given away by then..).  There was some really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I actually hold the distinction of having been arrested (for Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different continents. But still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!  This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out, wondering why he encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop now.  Next chapter will include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun stuff.               more to follow in Part II 


More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Nov 28 18:23:41 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:23:41 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <8CA002FEC2561FB-234C-3B84@mblk-d11.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c8321e$18373ca0$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 

 

Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a lot of "hanging going on!"
For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a love and appreciation
for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed to the G-d of Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more often associated with
Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should not negate the fact that
he was an observant Jew.

 

I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow under the impression that
according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in Israel (I have forgotten
the location) where there is a gravesite attributed to Yeshua and that his
grave, among others, is one that has been visited and venerated by pious
rabbis down thru the ages???  I really don't think I dreamed this. I thought
you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we might need to check with my
brother. 

 

Love & Blessings,

 

Betty/Elisheva 

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

 

Hey Dick - 

   How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it really makes me happy to be
here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an interesting one.
Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role model if someone is
looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.

   Having said that, if referring to the G-d of Yeshua is done in the same
context as the G-d of any other Jew of history (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.  

   Ross makes it very clear on the website that Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize that some Rabbi in
Israel is going to hang me one day for having written that, right?   LOL
Only kidding......   :-)  
 
   Best regards Dick!
       Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
                     Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!

      Just a question I have had in my mind for some time.  Do you think it
would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers to use in there prayers,
"God of YeShua".

   Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of Israel"  " not as God".

Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

 

Shalom to all, 

     With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I
write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a
"congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is
you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across as disjointed, I
apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head'  It
seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh......

      In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to
pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy.  As
we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our
shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which
is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no
advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on
our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on....
EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.  

     The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the
'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or
benedictions).  The first two sentences are the following (transliterated
Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei
Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is simple, the meaning behind
it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of
Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."

 

     The obvious question is - why the redundancy?  After all, the G-d of
Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why
does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what I learned, many, many
years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:

    HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or
forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own,
distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but
Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham,
or each other, for that matter.  

     So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem,
to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up
for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.  Who knows which of us may
be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees??

    We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at
stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my
daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot
(blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our
People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed
Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his
children:  "And may you always know the difference between what's important,
and what's not."  

 

    May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new
ones....


    B'Ahavat Yisrael,
             Hanoch

 


  _____  


More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=ao
lcmp00050000000003> !


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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Wed Nov 28 18:28:53 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:28:53 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5660@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Hey All,

I think I remember reading about that in James' book (JD) Betty.  I'm not at home right now or I'd look it up.

"Be excellent to each other"
               Bill & Ted

John C.
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Wed Nov 28 18:23:41 2007
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 

 

Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a lot of ?hanging going on!? For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a love and appreciation for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more often associated with Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should not negate the fact that he was an observant Jew.

 

I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow under the impression that according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in Israel (I have forgotten the location) where there is a gravesite attributed to Yeshua and that his grave, among others, is one that has been visited and venerated by pious rabbis down thru the ages???  I really don?t think I dreamed this. I thought you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we might need to check with my brother. 

 

Love & Blessings,

 

Betty/Elisheva 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

 

Hey Dick - 

   How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it really makes me happy to be here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an interesting one.  Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority on Jewish Law (Halacha) - I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role model if someone is looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.

   Having said that, if referring to the G-d of Yeshua is done in the same context as the G-d of any other Jew of history (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak, King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.  

   Ross makes it very clear on the website that Yeshua prayed to the G-d of Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize that some Rabbi in Israel is going to hang me one day for having written that, right?   LOL  Only kidding......   :-)  
 
   Best regards Dick!
       Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
                     Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!

      Just a question I have had in my mind for some time.  Do you think it would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers to use in there prayers, "God of YeShua".

   Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of Israel"  " not as God".

	Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

	 

	Shalom to all, 
	
	     With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across as disjointed, I apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head'  It seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh......
	
	      In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy.  As we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on.... EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.  
	
	     The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or benedictions).  The first two sentences are the following (transliterated Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is simple, the meaning behind it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."

	 

	     The obvious question is - why the redundancy?  After all, the G-d of Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what I learned, many, many years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
	
	    HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own, distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham, or each other, for that matter.  
	
	     So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem, to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael.  We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.  Who knows which of us may be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees??
	
	    We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his children:  "And may you always know the difference between what's important, and what's not."  

	 

	    May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new ones....

	
	    B'Ahavat Yisrael,
	             Hanoch

	 

	________________________________

		More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003> !

	________________________________

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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Wed Nov 28 18:32:16 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:32:16 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <BAY115-W133E3BCFFEB0D5A12DE262BA700@phx.gbl>
References: <8CA001B3B4C2009-354-3007@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>
	<BAY115-W133E3BCFFEB0D5A12DE262BA700@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8CA00366D4D87AB-BAC-7891@WEBMAIL-MA10.sysops.aol.com>

Thanks Pat!? I'm glad you're enjoying it, but you have NO idea how therapeutic this is for ME!? Hope to write more tomorrow!? Laila tov!
???????? Hanoch 


-----Original Message-----
From: patricia robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 7:12 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I


This is so cool, Hanoch!? Can't wait to read the next episode!!!!!!? 
?
I came in tonight and turned on my computer and couldn't believe all the emails!!!!? How fun is this?? I love it!
?
Pat



To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:17:35 -0500
From: youngbarzel at aol.com
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I

Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!

?My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but haven't used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try to lead what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish lifestyle.? I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends and students, even more then coming from New York City!? :-)

?Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it kind of a long saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a "traditionally observant" (I truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, although not terribly knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with the equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).? What kept from assimilating, was the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx, where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.? None of the neighborhood?girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it kept me Jewish.

? I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. - 7,200 boys, not a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me to get a substantial scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer after I graduated H.S., which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be smart, so I had skiped a grade).? I remember it costs of folks (Of Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with this Board of Jewish Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.? It was amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.???

?? That September I started college, and I always wondered what my commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not broken out in early October 1973.? This galvanized me into action (and a lifelong ad to studying every aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit later), and I began getting involved in Jewish activist movements.? You've got to remember that the time was ripe with demonstrations and civil disobedience.? There was the Black Panther Party, the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.? And then there was the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....

??Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in as a youth (in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth Movement.? It was throrugh Betar that I did my first series of "activist/militant" activities and learned to shoot (which you guys down South larn early on, right?). The JDL (which out Wikipedia for some background), which was started?by Rav Kahane (who?turned out to be THE dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that at that time...), sort of speaks for itself.

???Most of the really?interesting stuff I was involved with, well, let's just say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully while we're walking around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given away?by then..).? There was some really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I?actually hold the distinction of having been arrested (for Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different continents.?But still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!

? This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out, wondering why he encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop now.? Next chapter will include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun stuff.

?????????????? more to follow in Part II 
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!


= 


_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From tsbcroley at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 28 19:37:38 2007
From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:37:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <8CA001B3B4C2009-354-3007@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <285179.8072.qm@web57104.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hello Hanoch,
      I have truly enjoyed reading all of your posts and I especially enjoyed this one.  I couldn't believe all of the posts that I found this afternoon.  I can't wait to read all of them.  The technology that allows all of us talk and share with each is is simply wonderful!  It is amazing that someone from a small town in Alabama can chat with someone in New York, Texas, Louisiana, Georgia, Canada, etc.  
      I know that I don't always respond after each post, but I am reading all of them.  I sometimes feel that I don't know enough to respond.  I do feel very privileged though to be in the company of so very many different folks.  I know that we are all in different places in our "walk", but the most important thing is that we all love and serve the same G-d.
    Looking forward to reading Part 2 of your introduction!!
Shalom and blessings,
     Tammy



youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!
 
  My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but haven't used it in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try to lead what for lack of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish lifestyle.  I guess that makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends and students, even more then coming from New York City!  :-)
 
  Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it kind of a long saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a "traditionally observant" (I truly hate the term "Orthodox") family, but was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, although not terribly knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with the equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).  What kept from assimilating, was the fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx, where I was hated, simply for being Jewish.  None of the neighborhood girls would go out with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it kept me Jewish.
 
   I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. - 7,200 boys, not a coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me to get a substantial scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer after I graduated H.S., which was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be smart, so I had skiped a grade).  I remember it costs of folks (Of Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with this Board of Jewish Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.  It was amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.   
 
    That September I started college, and I always wondered what my commitment to Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not broken out in early October 1973.  This galvanized me into action (and a lifelong ad to studying every aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit later), and I began getting involved in Jewish activist movements.  You've got to remember that the time was ripe with demonstrations and civil disobedience.  There was the Black Panther Party, the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.  And then there was the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....
 
   Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in as a youth (in Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth Movement.  It was throrugh Betar that I did my first series of "activist/militant" activities and learned to shoot (which you guys down South larn early on, right?). The JDL (which out Wikipedia for some background), which was started by Rav Kahane (who turned out to be THE dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that at that time...), sort of speaks for itself.
 
    Most of the really interesting stuff I was involved with, well, let's just say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully while we're walking around Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given away by then..).  There was some really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I actually hold the distinction of having been arrested (for Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different continents. But still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!
 
   This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out, wondering why he encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop now.  Next chapter will include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun stuff.
 
                more to follow in Part II 
---------------------------------
 More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail!
 
 _______________________________________________



  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

       
---------------------------------
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From Shimmy at dslextreme.com  Wed Nov 28 23:41:33 2007
From: Shimmy at dslextreme.com (Shimmy)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:41:33 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Hangings and Sfat
In-Reply-To: <001201c8321e$18373ca0$653c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <8CA002FEC2561FB-234C-3B84@mblk-d11.sysops.aol.com>
	<001201c8321e$18373ca0$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <mailman.1.1255038949.4773.dialogue@rootsoffaith.org>

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From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Thu Nov 29 00:04:31 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 1:04:31 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."
In-Reply-To: <8CA0013CD82C6E9-354-2C0E@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20071129010431.SZREV.21994.root@fepweb08>


This reminded me of something I had read previously about the four factions at the Red Sea. http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/1728/jewish/The-Four-Factions.htm?
We must continue to move forward until the time of HaShem's deliverance. (May we merit the redemption.)

The Temple Institute website has a list of people and addresses to write in opposition to so-called "peace negotiations".
http://www.templeinstitute.org/events.htm#protest?
Kim
---- youngbarzel at aol.com wrote:

=============

Dear Rick,



???? Thank you for your note.? You know, sometimes, I think people never read what I've written, and just delete - must be a relic of a childhood with a poor self-image, or some insanity like that...
?
???? After reading your note, here are my thoughts, and they're my personal opinions.?? So, you, or anyone else ('any of y'all' as Ross would have me say it..) can feel free to disagree. But here goes:

??? We have NO way of knowing what G-d's plan is, or even, might be. We can, and SHOULD shout and do all we can - maybe that's G-d's very intent!? As someone once said, "Pray as if only G-d will make something happen, and act as if only WE can make something happen."??

????End times scenarios are really scary stuff, no doubt about it.? Now this is NOT an area of my expertise (or even an area that I've delved into much), here are some things that I learned from my teacher, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d avenge his blood).? Once, when teaching us about the period of redemption, quoted a verse from the prophet Hosea (I'll look up the verse tomorrow, sorry, I don't have it available); it said: "....bita achisheyna"? - "In its time, I will hurry it...."?

???? Now of course, that begs the question, if something has a 'set time' how can it be hurried??? And here's the answer: G-d has established a fixed time, that whether or not people deserve it, the world will be redeemed ("..in its time...").? And this will be proceeded with suffering, destruction and horrors that the world has never experienced before (the Rabbinic sages have often been quoted as praying that they will not live in the time of the 'footsteps of the Messiah")??

???? However, If G-d's people merit the redemption, then it will come swiftly, with glory and without suffering.? So our task Rick, is to make sure to merit the redemption.....

???? HOW can we do that?!?!? Well, keep coming to Ross' classes, I'm certain he'll get to it!!? :-)

???? And by the way, I pray for my daughters safety in Israel several times a day.? Although, honestly - I think she'll do much better in the?TRUE end of days, then I will if (G-d forbid) I stay in New York.

???? Best regards, and thanks again for your comments,

??????????????? Hanoch

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Gozhanskij <info at poweredbyhadavar.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 2:12 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."





Hanoch,? I must admit sometimes I am not sure what do about all of this, peace treaty etc.? I have family members who live in Israel and I want to shout at those people making those decisions for us.? Can I shout all I want and yet this might be part of HIS plan?? If this is not a plan by G-d, then maybe my prayers can make a difference.? I find myself just asking G-d to help me get thru this if this is part of HIS end time plan.? I was thinking of Daniel this week how G-D protected him in the midst of the Lions.? YHVH protect my family in the middle of these end time plans the prophets have spoken about.

Rick




----- Original Message ----
From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" <youngbarzel at aol.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 12:55:48 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] On the "Highway to Hell..."

Shalom to all,

You know, you can tell the era that I grew up in by the song lyrics I tend to quote (although I never was much of an AC DC fan..).? But after the statements made yesterday, after the Annapolis Surrender Summit, those lyrics kept resonating in my brain.? And Israel seems determined to go through with this national suicide.

?When the Prime Minister of Israel is quoted as saying," We are prepared to make a painful compromise, rife with risks, in order to realize these aspirations," then you can understand why I think we're on the "Highway to Hell!"? We are expected to give and give, which only emboldens the islamo-nazis even further.?

Firstly, and most importantly, Israel is G-d's LAND, which he gave to HIS people as an everlasting possession.? There was no leasing to subtenants, and no bartering it away.? Second, surrendering any part of Eretz Yisrael does not bring even one minute of peace...not at all.? Just look at what's happened once the Oslo War started (2000).

?I am astounded at how incredibly masochistic we are....we arm them, they kill us, and we reward them; what's wrong with this picture??? Yes, this IS the Highway to Hell!

?More on this another time, but keep praying, keep writing to your elected officials and never, ever give up hope.??

?B'Ahavat HaMoledet,
???? Hanoch
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!








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From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Thu Nov 29 00:11:37 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:11:37 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] you need to know who you're dealing with
In-Reply-To: <8CA00091052893A-1374-26C0@webmail-mf06.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20071129011137.O56JB.22110.root@fepweb08>

very scary

We need to pray that the blinders be taken off our leaders! This site should be forwarded to every one of them, as well as every else that we know.

Kim


---- youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: 

=============
Shalom to all - 

?? There is one Internet site that I want every single person to see, and pass on to their friends and neighbors.? It doesn't matter if you're Christian, Jewish, Ephramite, Noahide or Buddist.? Go to:

???????????????????? www.Thereligionofpeace.com?

??? Ross - this should be on your site for those people who just don't 'get it..'

??????????????????????? Hanoch

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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Wed Nov 28 17:39:00 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:39:00 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I
In-Reply-To: <024501c8320d$062e4b40$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <8CA002EFC4778F7-234C-3B34@mblk-d11.sysops.aol.com>


Dear Betty - 



?? There isn't a single time that I see a note from you and don't smile!!? :-)? Hearing from you is a natural anti-depressant!? I've decided to finally 'let my hair down' and tell you all the stories (or some of them, at least..) that I've been carrying around, and just haven't shared with you guys.? It just hasn't been the right time, the right place, or something.



? And now, with my personal insanity (you don't want to know..) hitting new heights, it's highly unlikely that I will be able to join you guys in either NC or LA, at least not for a very long time to come.? So.....I'll share some of the stories about how I got involved in all this stuff....

? Some are really funny (the Black pimp in the 'Tombs' - the Manhattan House of Detention, who thought I was a pimp, too), some are serious (staging a sit in in Moscow to free a Jewish prisoner), some are bizarre - how going to an all boy H.S. made me a bit socially backward, and some are just a bit sad - the way the kids in my neighborhood hated me simply because I was Jewish.

? Eventually, I'll get around to 1993, when I got to meet Betty, Roger, Ross, Becky, Ralph, Dennis, James?and a whole host of others.? Little did I realize that these folks would be instrumental in changing my life....a realization that's finally dawned on me only within less then the last year.? I've never told any of them (or you) that before....I must be on "truth-serum" or something...sighhhhh...isn't it wild to have NO inhibitions?!?!??

? One quick factoid: I've never, ever been drunk or have gotten high; in fact, I've never even had a beer!? To have gotten drunk in my old neighborhood would have been hazardous to my health - they were always trying to kick my butt (that's where I first learned to?fight, BTW).? IF I had been drunk or high - could you imagine me with NO inhibitions?!?!?? A frightening thought...

? Anyway, it's now 6:30PM, and I've been up since 4:22AM (I have not?had a decent night sleep since the Spring).? Of course I'm still at work, and actually have two meetings tonight - one from 7:30-8:30, and then 8:30-10:30.? I will get to leave her tonight at 11:00....So, please hang in there for?Part II, which I hope, B"H (with G-d's help) to get to tomorrow.? It should be both informative and a bit entertaining, too!? :-)

?????? Hanoch
?

???

? 


-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 5:21 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I





Well, that was very nice of you to say, Hanoch! You and Roger and I go back a long time?mid ninety?s I think?I think it was after our conversion, which was in Tishri of 1993, at one of our UIWU meetings in NY when David Horowitz was still with us.? Dennis Jones introduced you to all of us then. ?BTW, I can say for both Roger and me that the feeling is mutual.

?

And like mother like daughter (or vice versa), I am also anxiously awaiting your next post; and I would never delete any of them either?I am learning too much new stuff about you!

?

Shalom, Shalom!

Betty/Elisheva

?




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:58 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I


?


Thanks Kim!!? You are too sweet!!? And you KNOW I absolutely ADORE your mom, right?!?!



?



?????????? Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Cc: youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:50 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A short intro ('cause Ross asked..) - Part I



anxiously awaiting part 2

P.S. I would never just delete one of your posts.

---- youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: 

?

=============

Shalom to all the folks on the Dialogue list!

?

?My name is Hanoch Young, (I do have a regular 'first' name, but haven't used it 

in 30 years) and as Ross mentioned, I am Jewish, and try to lead what for lack 

of a better term, I'll call - a traditional Jewish lifestyle.? I guess that 

makes me a bit of an oddity among Ross' friends and students, even more then 

coming from New York City!? :-)

?

?Wow...I'm not sure how much detail to throw in here. and it kind of a long 

saga, so here goes...I did not grow up in a "traditionally observant" (I truly 

hate the term "Orthodox") family, but was aware and proud of my Jewish identity, 

although not terribly knowledgeable (afternoon 'Hebrew School' provides you with 

the equivalent of a 2nd Grade education).? What kept from assimilating, was the 

fact that we lived in an Irish Catholic neighborhood in the Bronx, where I was 

hated, simply for being Jewish.? None of the neighborhood?girls would go out 

with me (an obvious blessing in disguise), but it kept me Jewish.

?

? I had two teachers in High School (De Witt Clinton H.S. - 7,200 boys, not a 

coed school), a husband and wife who arranged for me to get a substantial 

scholarship to be able to go to Israel the summer after I graduated H.S., which 

was 1973, when I was 16 (I used to be smart, so I had skiped a grade).? I 

remember it costs of folks (Of Blessed Memory) $295 to send to to Israel with 

this Board of Jewish Education tour, which took me all over Israel for 7 weeks.? 

It was amazing, although it didn't really have any 'spiritual' content to it.???

?

?? That September I started college, and I always wondered what my commitment to 

Israel would have been had the Yom Kippur War not broken out in early October 

1973.? This galvanized me into action (and a lifelong ad to studying every 

aspect of Judaism, but more on that a bit later), and I began getting involved 

in Jewish activist movements.? You've got to remember that the time was ripe 

with demonstrations and civil disobedience.? There was the Black Panther Party, 

the Latino, Young Lords, Hippies, Yippies and everyone else.? And then there was 

the Jewish Defense League and Betar.....

?

??Betar was the youth movement that Menachem Begin had been in as a youth (in 

Poland), and was known as the 'militant' Zionist Youth Movement.? It was 

throrugh Betar that I did my first series of "activist/militant" activities and 

learned to shoot (which you guys down South larn early on, right?). The JDL 

(which out Wikipedia for some background), which was started?by Rav Kahane 

(who?turned out to be THE dominant influence in my life...but I didn't know that 

at that time...), sort of speaks for itself.

?

???Most of the really?interesting stuff I was involved with, well, let's just 

say that maybe we can discuss it one day, hopefully while we're walking around 

Jerusalem together (I pray it won't be given away?by then..).? There was some 

really 'hairy' stuff back then, and I?actually hold the distinction of having 

been arrested (for Jewish causes, not for 'criminal' stuff ) on three different 

continents.?But still, never 'convicted' of committing a crime!

?

? This is about the time that Ross is pulling his hair out, wondering why he 

encouraged me to write....ha, pal - too late to stop now.? Next chapter will 

include our sit-in in Moscow, and other fun stuff.

?

?????????????? more to follow in Part II

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?

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Thu Nov 29 06:47:58 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:47:58 EST
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] triennial cycle question
Message-ID: <cdb.1fcd8041.34800efe@aol.com>



Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





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Subject: Re: [Dialogue] triennial cycle question
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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu Nov 29 07:24:47 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:24:47 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
Message-ID: <ce9.1f04c508.3480179f@aol.com>

Okay, where were we...so, I'm a kid growing up with the average American 
Jewish background - little education, memorized how to chant my Haftara (the 
portion of the prophets that's read in synagogues after the Torah reading every 
Shabbat) at my Bar Mitzva.  We went to shul (the Yiddish term for synagogue) on 
the "High Holidays" (Rosh HaShana & Yom Kippur), ate matza on Passover, but 
didn't keep Kosher or celebrate ('observe,' as some would say) Shabbat.

BTW (by the way) - if I use any terms you're not familiar with, please write 
to me, and I will gladly explain them; please feel free, I mean it.  

I had few friends growing up, and got into more then a few fights with those 
who viewed me as the local "Christ killer (by my being Jewish, of course..)."  
My parents, Of Blessed Memory provided a loving home, and were thrilled that 
I was able to get the scholarship to go to Israel after H.S. otherwise, we 
could never have afforded it.  We lived a kind of 'upper lower class' existence - 
had food on the table, but we didn't have a car, we didn't go on vacation, 
and I was never able to go away to camp.  Please understand, the reason I'm 
telling you all of this is to set the scene for how I felt out of place, and 
didn't just slip into being an average American, instead of a committed, serious 
Jew.

My father was a gentle man, who never, ever raised a hand to me.  He had a 
very tough life (which I didn't find out until years after his death, when his 
older brother told me stories), growing up in the depression.  He and his 
brothers used to go around the neighborhood to collect cardboard, so they could 
'patch up' the holes in their house, where the wind whipped in.  Dad was in 
retail men's clothing, and worked six days/week, three nights, and never had more 
then two weeks vacation in his whole life.  He died of lung cancer at the age 
of 64, in 1984 (In the '50's my family moved to Savannah, Georgia to manage a 
clothing store - but no one would buy from a "New York Jew," and the business 
venture failed.  However, if I had been born less then a year earlier, I would 
have been a 'Southern Boy!"  What a mix of accents THAT would have been).

But I'm straying from my story - I remember my dad's favorite thing to do, 
was to sit in the livingroom, in the dark, listening to cantorial (Jewish 
liturgical) records.  The mournful (it SOUNDED mournful to me..) sounds were deeply 
emotional (although I was unfamiliar with the prayers being chanted), and my 
father would sit there with tears running down his cheeks.....I didn't realize 
it at the time, but that was my first experience with what I came to realize 
was an aspect of Jewish spirituality.  Years later, I too would listen to those 
same records (then taped, as the technology advanced), and at that point I 
knew what the cantor was chanting, and I too sat and cried...still do, if the 
truth be told. It was then that I learned the power of music and song that could 
touch your very soul (even MORE then Black Sabbath's "Paranoid" which I loved 
to listen to fall asleep! Man, I was weird...)

But it was my trip to Israel which exposed me to many Jewish 'rituals' that 
eventually became part of my daily life.  It was in Israel, standing at the top 
of Masada, where my co-religionists killed themselves rather then be Roman 
slaves that I saw an ancient pair of tefilin ('phylacteries').  I had seen them, 
and put them on before my Bar Mitzva, but I didn't even own a pair, myself (I 
recall my folks offering to buy them for me, and my telling them not to waste 
their money, I would never use them..).  I actually recall thinking, if King 
David could put those things on, then maybe I should, too!  I saw a mikva (a 
ritual bath) on Masada as well, reminding me of how little I really knew about 
traditional Judaism.
 
    So, let's review what was going on with little, soon to be 17 year old 
Hanoch (then still known as "Howie").  I felt fiercely proud of being Jewish, 
and my heritage, although knowing little of it, I was not accepted by the 
neighborhood kids, and didn't have the normal/typical "boy/girl" interactions (you 
guys don't need ALL the specifics, do you?! LOL), I spent 7 amazing weeks in 
Israel, touring all over the Land.  An Israel that (in the summer of 1973) was 
cocky and self assured, having won the miraculous 6 Day War, only 7 years 
before.  
 
What would have happened to me then, had the Yom Kippur War not broken out, I 
don't really know.  I signed up for Hebrew classes (I could read, from having 
been in Hebrew School) and American Jewish History, but it was at the local 
branch of the City University of New York (5 blocks from my house!).  So, I 
didn't have a campus life (read: 'social life').  Relatively 'alone,' starting 
college, becoming Jewishly aware, enormous rage at the Irish kids I had to fight 
(AND their sisters, for those 'other' reasons), having just been in Israel, 
and 7 weeks later - Israel's at war....and losing...badly. Could the Holocaust 
be happening again?
 
I went to demonstrations and rallies, but it was the winter of 1974 (just 2 
months after the war) that I joined Betar, which was a bit more 'ideological' 
then the Jewish Defense League (which I also began to be involved with a year 
later...).  We read books about the heroes of the Jewish underground movements 
that fought against the British occupation of the Land of Israel, and that 
prevented Europe's Jews from reaching a safe haven in what was then called, 
"Mandatory Palestine."
 
We learned to shoot weapons, and took martial arts classes - all to be 
prepared to help Jews.  Those a bit older then I, went on Aliyah (literally "Going 
Up") - moving to Israel, and joined the Army.  Oops..running out of time, got 
home from work less then 8 hours ago, but it's time to go back already!   :-(
 
In November 1974, Arafat (May his name be erased!) came to the U.N. for the 
first time, pistol in his holster at the General Assembly.  Yes, there were 
demonstrations against this arch-terrorist, but it was the chanting, peaceful 
kind....even with NYPD snipers staked out on the roof of the New York Hilton 
Hotel.  But a group of 30 of us from Betar made it TO the U.N. gates and 
handcuffed ourselves to the gates, splattering animal blood over the sidewalk, and 
burning an effigy of Arafat.  The police went nuts!!!!  The news guys LOVED it, we 
were in Army fatigues, and clearly weren't taking any 'poop' (not sure how 
colorful Ross wants my language to get...) from anyone.
 
    This was my first arrest, at age 18, but it was done to help save the 
Jewish people (which is important to note was my mindset at the time.  Not to 
spend time with the young women I was meeting, but to do ACTION, to help Israel, 
save Jews and avenge the Holocaust).  It was almost like the old Superman TV 
show - for ..."Truth, Justice, and the American way..."
 
We got tons of press, including a shot of my blood stained hands (animal 
blood folks, remember?) handcuffed to the U.N. gates in the New York Daily News - 
still have the copy.  I also got a copy (someone got it - don't know how) of 
an Associated Press photo of me (and another guy who later went to prison for 
bombing Russian facilities....) being lead away in handcuffs.  It's a GREAT 
shot, and maybe one day when I learn to scan, I can forward it to you guys for 
your amusement.  It was VERY cool......at that time everyone hated Arafat, and I 
remember being the 'hero' of the few Jews in the neighborhood, and my mom's 
friends (although when I called my mom from the police station, she DID ask me 
if I had enough food to eat with me....once a Jewish mother, always a Jewish 
mother).  But people congratulated me, and my friends older sister (an 'older 
woman' of 23, kissed me on the cheek for having been arrested for this cause.  
I didn't wash  that cheek for weeks...)
 
Okay, got to make this fast....In the Fall/Winter of 1974/1975 the 
Disengagement agreement that Henry Kissinger had arranged between Israel and Syria was 
set to expire, and it was clear that Israel would have to go to war, yet again. 
 During the War, American planes with desperately needed weapons and 
ammunition ('cause the Soviets were supplying the Egyptians and the Syrians) reached 
Israel, after refueling on the Azores Islands, a Portuguese possession. 
Portugal announced that in the 'event of hostilities inthe Middle East' they would 
not allow U.S. planes to land - which would have made Israel's resupply 
impossible.  
 
    So, we knew we had to strike out against Portugal immediately.  We would 
teach them a lesson!!  But how do you attack Portugal in NYC??  We found out 
there was an office (street level storefront type) of TAP, which actually stood 
for: "The Airline of Portugal."   A group of us drove into the city, and TAP 
was located on 5th Avenue, and 40something street (you guys MUST know what 5th 
Avenue is like in the evening, right?!?!?).  Two of us got out of the car, 
both in Army fatigue jackets (Vietnam surplus was still considered 'cool'), both 
with tire irons.  Gershon (who was still, 'George Green' at the time, and is 
today a top chemical engineer at Israel's huge refinery in Haifa) was to smash 
their windows, I was to pound my tire iron in my hand, and look menacing, so 
no one would interfere.  We would make these Portuguese pay for threatening 
Israel!
 
He ran up to it, reared back, swung the tire iron...and the window didn't 
break!!  Damn!!!!!!!   He gathered all his strength to pound it again, and swung 
- there was a noise, but no glass breaking!!!!!!!  I guess the third time is a 
charm, because he then smashed two 'foot sized' holes in the glass, and then 
we ran like hell, to our waiting get away car.  We yellled at Dave to go, step 
on it...the care lurched forward and we were immediately smashed into by the 
NYPD, with their guns pointed out our heads...the good news is that they were 
the old 38 caliber ones, not the more intimidating 9mm Glock automatics they 
now carry.   We were busted.....it seems there had been a high speed car cahse 
nearby, and this Police car was returning to its precinct, across town, right 
at that moment; just our luck....and it turns out, we caused $15,000 worth of 
damage...
 
They acted as if they had just caught the assassins of President Kennedy (and 
there WAS more then one).  But time is really late, so let me give you the 
'Readers Digest' version.  We were stuck in these large,smelly, filthy 'holding 
cells' which housed 30 or so 'inmates.'  The flotsam and jetsam of NY 
society...the lowlife creeps you'd cross the street to get away from.  They were now 
our intimate neighbors.  After standing in the middle of the cell, we finally 
were too exhausted and we sat down on the filthy, grimy floor (think of the 
shipboard jail in "Pirates of the Carribean").
 
Now, I'm going to use the actual language spoken to me - please do not think 
of me as racist, it's just to accurately portray what was said.  A quick 
glossary of terms though:
Shabbos - the Yiddish way of pronouncing Shabbat
 
Kiddish - Kiddush the sanctification of wine on Shabbat and holidays, but 
also referred to the giving of wine, cake and some food at some shuls 
(synagogues) on Shabbat.
 
An extremely well dressed Black man saunters over to us, wearing a light 
brown three piece suit, wearing a bowler (sp?) hat!!   We're sitting on the floor, 
miserable, tired, hungry, and upset we got arrested, when we thought we would 
get away clear.  What's the point of being arrested if there's no press 
coverage??
 
He said, "Shalom, Hebrew brothers!!"  We smiled and said 'hi'.  He then 
asked, "whatcha in for?  Was ya pimpin? (yeah right, these yarmulke wearing, guys 
with soiled army fatigue jackets were pimping!!)"  He then wanted to know if we 
dealt drugs, and a whole variety of things.  But he kept asking, "...really 
now - was ya pimpin'??
 
He came back a few minutes later...and then told us: "Isz (read: 'I') go to 
shul, every Shabbos!"  We freaked out, asking him if he was Jewish, were did he 
live, and a million rapid fire questions....He quickly said, "No, no, isz 
only go for Kiddish..."  Only in New York, right?
 
Later that night, someone came in with a copy of the newspaper, which he 
read.  He quickly realized that we were the "Jewish militants arrested last 
night," and came over and said in a shocked, accusatory tone,"Youz broke 
windows!!!!!!!!"   It would have been fine to have been a pimp (although my mom would 
have been disappointed in me..LOL), or to have dealt drugs - but NOT to break 
windows!!!!!!!   Too weird.
 
Okay got to go:  Part III will be my demonstration in Russia, JDL Leadership 
school in Israel with Rav Kahane and friends going to prison.  But most 
importantly - when did I actully begin truly studying Torah.  All of this links me 
where I am today....
 
Sorry it's SO long,
        Hanoch



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 29 07:45:13 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:45:13 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
Message-ID: <112920071345.18822.474EC26900013DA50000498622243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

... um, like... wow... but I can totally relate to 'Paranoid'...
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From tsbcroley at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 29 07:50:38 2007
From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 05:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
In-Reply-To: <ce9.1f04c508.3480179f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <333902.13898.qm@web57102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Good Morning Hanoch,
    Reading about your life is so interesting.   It is almost like reading a novel.......makes my life seem so simple and sheltered.  HaShem has a plan for all of us and so I shouldn't seem as though I am complaining about my life. I truly thank Him for all that I have or have not experienced.  Looking forward to the next installment!
Shalom,
Tammy 

YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:    Okay, where were we...so, I'm a kid growing up with the average American Jewish background - little education, memorized how to chant my Haftara (the portion of the prophets that's read in synagogues after the Torah reading every Shabbat) at my Bar Mitzva.  We went to shul (the Yiddish term for synagogue) on the "High Holidays" (Rosh HaShana & Yom Kippur), ate matza on Passover, but didn't keep Kosher or celebrate ('observe,' as some would say) Shabbat.

BTW (by the way) - if I use any terms you're not familiar with, please write to me, and I will gladly explain them; please feel free, I mean it.  

I had few friends growing up, and got into more then a few fights with those who viewed me as the local "Christ killer (by my being Jewish, of course..)."  My parents, Of Blessed Memory provided a loving home, and were thrilled that I was able to get the scholarship to go to Israel after H.S. otherwise, we could never have afforded it.  We lived a kind of 'upper lower class' existence - had food on the table, but we didn't have a car, we didn't go on vacation, and I was never able to go away to camp.  Please understand, the reason I'm telling you all of this is to set the scene for how I felt out of place, and didn't just slip into being an average American, instead of a committed, serious Jew.

My father was a gentle man, who never, ever raised a hand to me.  He had a very tough life (which I didn't find out until years after his death, when his older brother told me stories), growing up in the depression.  He and his brothers used to go around the neighborhood to collect cardboard, so they could 'patch up' the holes in their house, where the wind whipped in.  Dad was in retail men's clothing, and worked six days/week, three nights, and never had more then two weeks vacation in his whole life.  He died of lung cancer at the age of 64, in 1984 (In the '50's my family moved to Savannah, Georgia to manage a clothing store - but no one would buy from a "New York Jew," and the business venture failed.  However, if I had been born less then a year earlier, I would have been a 'Southern Boy!"  What a mix of accents THAT would have been).

But I'm straying from my story - I remember my dad's favorite thing to do, was to sit in the livingroom, in the dark, listening to cantorial (Jewish liturgical) records.  The mournful (it SOUNDED mournful to me..) sounds were deeply emotional (although I was unfamiliar with the prayers being chanted), and my father would sit there with tears running down his cheeks.....I didn't realize it at the time, but that was my first experience with what I came to realize was an aspect of Jewish spirituality.  Years later, I too would listen to those same records (then taped, as the technology advanced), and at that point I knew what the cantor was chanting, and I too sat and cried...still do, if the truth be told. It was then that I learned the power of music and song that could touch your very soul (even MORE then Black Sabbath's "Paranoid" which I loved to listen to fall asleep! Man, I was weird...)

But it was my trip to Israel which exposed me to many Jewish 'rituals' that eventually became part of my daily life.  It was in Israel, standing at the top of Masada, where my co-religionists killed themselves rather then be Roman slaves that I saw an ancient pair of tefilin ('phylacteries').  I had seen them, and put them on before my Bar Mitzva, but I didn't even own a pair, myself (I recall my folks offering to buy them for me, and my telling them not to waste their money, I would never use them..).  I actually recall thinking, if King David could put those things on, then maybe I should, too!  I saw a mikva (a ritual bath) on Masada as well, reminding me of how little I really knew about traditional Judaism.
  
     So, let's review what was going on with little, soon to be 17 year old Hanoch (then still known as "Howie").  I felt fiercely proud of being Jewish, and my heritage, although knowing little of it, I was not accepted by the neighborhood kids, and didn't have the normal/typical "boy/girl" interactions (you guys don't need ALL the specifics, do you?! LOL), I spent 7 amazing weeks in Israel, touring all over the Land.  An Israel that (in the summer of 1973) was cocky and self assured, having won the miraculous 6 Day War, only 7 years before.  
  
 What would have happened to me then, had the Yom Kippur War not broken out, I don't really know.  I signed up for Hebrew classes (I could read, from having been in Hebrew School) and American Jewish History, but it was at the local branch of the City University of New York (5 blocks from my house!).  So, I didn't have a campus life (read: 'social life').  Relatively 'alone,' starting college, becoming Jewishly aware, enormous rage at the Irish kids I had to fight (AND their sisters, for those 'other' reasons), having just been in Israel, and 7 weeks later - Israel's at war....and losing...badly. Could the Holocaust be happening again?
  
 I went to demonstrations and rallies, but it was the winter of 1974 (just 2 months after the war) that I joined Betar, which was a bit more 'ideological' then the Jewish Defense League (which I also began to be involved with a year later...).  We read books about the heroes of the Jewish underground movements that fought against the British occupation of the Land of Israel, and that prevented Europe's Jews from reaching a safe haven in what was then called, "Mandatory Palestine."
  
 We learned to shoot weapons, and took martial arts classes - all to be prepared to help Jews.  Those a bit older then I, went on Aliyah (literally "Going Up") - moving to Israel, and joined the Army.  Oops..running out of time, got home from work less then 8 hours ago, but it's time to go back already!   :-(
  
 In November 1974, Arafat (May his name be erased!) came to the U.N. for the first time, pistol in his holster at the General Assembly.  Yes, there were demonstrations against this arch-terrorist, but it was the chanting, peaceful kind....even with NYPD snipers staked out on the roof of the New York Hilton Hotel.  But a group of 30 of us from Betar made it TO the U.N. gates and handcuffed ourselves to the gates, splattering animal blood over the sidewalk, and burning an effigy of Arafat.  The police went nuts!!!!  The news guys LOVED it, we were in Army fatigues, and clearly weren't taking any 'poop' (not sure how colorful Ross wants my language to get...) from anyone.
  
     This was my first arrest, at age 18, but it was done to help save the Jewish people (which is important to note was my mindset at the time.  Not to spend time with the young women I was meeting, but to do ACTION, to help Israel, save Jews and avenge the Holocaust).  It was almost like the old Superman TV show - for ..."Truth, Justice, and the American way..."
  
 We got tons of press, including a shot of my blood stained hands (animal blood folks, remember?) handcuffed to the U.N. gates in the New York Daily News - still have the copy.  I also got a copy (someone got it - don't know how) of an Associated Press photo of me (and another guy who later went to prison for bombing Russian facilities....) being lead away in handcuffs.  It's a GREAT shot, and maybe one day when I learn to scan, I can forward it to you guys for your amusement.  It was VERY cool......at that time everyone hated Arafat, and I remember being the 'hero' of the few Jews in the neighborhood, and my mom's friends (although when I called my mom from the police station, she DID ask me if I had enough food to eat with me....once a Jewish mother, always a Jewish mother).  But people congratulated me, and my friends older sister (an 'older woman' of 23, kissed me on the cheek for having been arrested for this cause.  I didn't wash  that cheek for weeks...)
  
 Okay, got to make this fast....In the Fall/Winter of 1974/1975 the Disengagement agreement that Henry Kissinger had arranged between Israel and Syria was set to expire, and it was clear that Israel would have to go to war, yet again.  During the War, American planes with desperately needed weapons and ammunition ('cause the Soviets were supplying the Egyptians and the Syrians) reached Israel, after refueling on the Azores Islands, a Portuguese possession. Portugal announced that in the 'event of hostilities inthe Middle East' they would not allow U.S. planes to land - which would have made Israel's resupply impossible.  
  
     So, we knew we had to strike out against Portugal immediately.  We would teach them a lesson!!  But how do you attack Portugal in NYC??  We found out there was an office (street level storefront type) of TAP, which actually stood for: "The Airline of Portugal."   A group of us drove into the city, and TAP was located on 5th Avenue, and 40something street (you guys MUST know what 5th Avenue is like in the evening, right?!?!?).  Two of us got out of the car, both in Army fatigue jackets (Vietnam surplus was still considered 'cool'), both with tire irons.  Gershon (who was still, 'George Green' at the time, and is today a top chemical engineer at Israel's huge refinery in Haifa) was to smash their windows, I was to pound my tire iron in my hand, and look menacing, so no one would interfere.  We would make these Portuguese pay for threatening Israel!
  
 He ran up to it, reared back, swung the tire iron...and the window didn't break!!  Damn!!!!!!!   He gathered all his strength to pound it again, and swung - there was a noise, but no glass breaking!!!!!!!  I guess the third time is a charm, because he then smashed two 'foot sized' holes in the glass, and then we ran like hell, to our waiting get away car.  We yellled at Dave to go, step on it...the care lurched forward and we were immediately smashed into by the NYPD, with their guns pointed out our heads...the good news is that they were the old 38 caliber ones, not the more intimidating 9mm Glock automatics they now carry.   We were busted.....it seems there had been a high speed car cahse nearby, and this Police car was returning to its precinct, across town, right at that moment; just our luck....and it turns out, we caused $15,000 worth of damage...
  
 They acted as if they had just caught the assassins of President Kennedy (and there WAS more then one).  But time is really late, so let me give you the 'Readers Digest' version.  We were stuck in these large,smelly, filthy 'holding cells' which housed 30 or so 'inmates.'  The flotsam and jetsam of NY society...the lowlife creeps you'd cross the street to get away from.  They were now our intimate neighbors.  After standing in the middle of the cell, we finally were too exhausted and we sat down on the filthy, grimy floor (think of the shipboard jail in "Pirates of the Carribean").
  
 Now, I'm going to use the actual language spoken to me - please do not think of me as racist, it's just to accurately portray what was said.  A quick glossary of terms though:
 Shabbos - the Yiddish way of pronouncing Shabbat
  
 Kiddish - Kiddush the sanctification of wine on Shabbat and holidays, but also referred to the giving of wine, cake and some food at some shuls (synagogues) on Shabbat.
  
 An extremely well dressed Black man saunters over to us, wearing a light brown three piece suit, wearing a bowler (sp?) hat!!   We're sitting on the floor, miserable, tired, hungry, and upset we got arrested, when we thought we would get away clear.  What's the point of being arrested if there's no press coverage??
  
 He said, "Shalom, Hebrew brothers!!"  We smiled and said 'hi'.  He then asked, "whatcha in for?  Was ya pimpin? (yeah right, these yarmulke wearing, guys with soiled army fatigue jackets were pimping!!)"  He then wanted to know if we dealt drugs, and a whole variety of things.  But he kept asking, "...really now - was ya pimpin'??
  
 He came back a few minutes later...and then told us: "Isz (read: 'I') go to shul, every Shabbos!"  We freaked out, asking him if he was Jewish, were did he live, and a million rapid fire questions....He quickly said, "No, no, isz only go for Kiddish..."  Only in New York, right?
  
 Later that night, someone came in with a copy of the newspaper, which he read.  He quickly realized that we were the "Jewish militants arrested last night," and came over and said in a shocked, accusatory tone,"Youz broke windows!!!!!!!!"   It would have been fine to have been a pimp (although my mom would have been disappointed in me..LOL), or to have dealt drugs - but NOT to break windows!!!!!!!   Too weird.
  
 Okay got to go:  Part III will be my demonstration in Russia, JDL Leadership school in Israel with Rav Kahane and friends going to prison.  But most importantly - when did I actully begin truly studying Torah.  All of this links me where I am today....
  
 Sorry it's SO long,
         Hanoch




---------------------------------
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  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

       
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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Thu Nov 29 10:16:50 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:16:50 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
In-Reply-To: <333902.13898.qm@web57102.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CA00BA62083F94-90-6042@WEBMAIL-MB01.sysops.aol.com>

Thanks Tammy, I appreciate the kind words.? Believe it or not, this is actually ALL going to make sense (okay, only somewhat, perhaps...), to explain who I am, how I got to be in the midst of THIS group, and why when I say things, you can't always take it as "the standard Jewish view of things."? I am actually leaving out a number of things that make for interesting anecdotes, but maybe some other time.

After all, Ross asked for a SHORT introduction, not a new War & Peace !!

Shalom for now,
???????? Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: Tammy & Bruce Croley <tsbcroley at yahoo.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 8:50 am
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II


Good Morning Hanoch,
??? Reading about your life is so interesting.?? It is almost like reading a novel.......makes my life seem so simple and sheltered.? HaShem has a plan for all of us and so I shouldn't seem as though I am complaining about my life. I truly thank Him for all that I have or have not experienced.? Looking forward to the next installment!
Shalom,
Tammy 

YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: 

Okay, where were we...so, I'm a kid growing up with the average American Jewish background - little education, memorized how to chant my Haftara (the portion of the prophets that's read in synagogues after the Torah reading every Shabbat) at my Bar Mitzva.? We went to shul (the Yiddish term for synagogue) on the "High Holidays" (Rosh HaShana & Yom Kippur), ate matza on Passover, but didn't keep Kosher or celebrate ('observe,' as some would say) Shabbat.

BTW (by the way) - if I use any terms you're not familiar with, please write to me, and I will gladly explain them; please feel free, I mean it.? 

I had few friends growing up, and got into more then a few fights with those who viewed me as the local "Christ killer (by my being Jewish, of course..)."? My parents, Of Blessed Memory provided a loving home, and were thrilled that I was able to get the scholarship to go to Israel after H.S. otherwise, we could never have afforded it.? We lived a kind of 'upper lower class' existence - had food on the table, but we didn't have a car, we didn't go on vacation, and I was never able to go away to camp.? Please understand, the reason I'm telling you all of this is to set the scene for how I felt out of place, and didn't just slip into being an average American, instead of a committed, serious Jew.

My father was a gentle man, who never, ever raised a hand to me.? He had a very tough life (which I didn't find out until years after his death, when his older brother told me stories), growing up in the depression.? He and his brothers used to go around the neighborhood to collect cardboard, so they could 'patch up' the holes in their house, where the wind whipped in.? Dad was in retail men's clothing, and worked six days/week, three nights, and never had more then two weeks vacation in his whole life.? He died of lung cancer at the age of 64, in 1984 (In the '50's my family moved to Savannah, Georgia to manage a clothing store - but no one would buy from a "New York Jew," and the business venture failed.? However, if I had been born less then a year earlier, I would have been a 'Southern Boy!"? What a mix of accents THAT would have been).

But I'm straying from my story - I remember my dad's favorite thing to do, was to sit in the livingroom, in the dark, listening to cantorial (Jewish liturgical) records.? The mournful (it SOUNDED mournful to me..) sounds were deeply emotional (although I was unfamiliar with the prayers being chanted), and my father would sit there with tears running down his cheeks.....I didn't realize it at the time, but that was my first experience with what I came to realize was an aspect of Jewish spirituality.? Years later, I too would listen to those same records (then taped, as the technology advanced), and at that point I knew what the cantor was chanting, and I too sat and cried...still do, if the truth be told. It was then that I learned the power of music and song that could touch your very soul (even MORE then Black Sabbath's "Paranoid" which I loved to listen to fall asleep! Man, I was weird...)

But it was my trip to Israel which exposed me to many Jewish 'rituals' that eventually became part of my daily life.? It was in Israel, standing at the top of Masada, where my co-religionists killed themselves rather then be Roman slaves that I saw an ancient pair of tefilin ('phylacteries').? I had seen them, and put them on before my Bar Mitzva, but I didn't even own a pair, myself (I recall my folks offering to buy them for me, and my telling them not to waste their money, I would never use them..).? I actually recall thinking, if King David could put those things on, then maybe I should, too!? I saw a mikva (a ritual bath) on Masada as well, reminding me of how little I really knew about traditional Judaism.

?

??? So, let's review what was going on with little, soon to be 17 year old Hanoch (then still known as "Howie").? I felt fiercely proud of being Jewish, and my heritage, although knowing little of it, I was not accepted by the neighborhood kids, and didn't have the normal/typical "boy/girl" interactions (you guys don't need ALL the specifics, do you?! LOL), I spent 7 amazing weeks in Israel, touring all over the Land.? An Israel that (in the summer of 1973) was cocky and self assured, having won the miraculous 6 Day War, only 7 years before.? 

?

What would have happened to me then, had the Yom Kippur War not broken out, I don't really know.? I signed up for Hebrew classes (I could read, from having been in Hebrew School) and American Jewish History, but it was at the local branch of the City University of New York (5 blocks from my house!).? So, I didn't have a campus life (read: 'social life').? Relatively 'alone,' starting college, becoming Jewishly aware, enormous rage at the Irish kids I had to fight (AND their sisters, for those 'other' reasons), having just been in Israel, and 7 weeks later - Israel's at war....and losing...badly. Could the Holocaust be happening again?

?

I went to demonstrations and rallies, but it was the winter of 1974 (just 2 months after the war) that I joined Betar, which was a bit more 'ideological' then the Jewish Defense League (which I also began to be involved with a year later...).? We read books about the heroes of the Jewish underground movements that fought against the British occupation of the Land of Israel, and that prevented Europe's Jews from reaching a safe haven in what was then called, "Mandatory Palestine."

?

We learned to shoot weapons, and took martial arts classes - all to be prepared to help Jews.? Those a bit older then I, went on Aliyah (literally "Going Up") - moving to Israel, and joined the Army.? Oops..running out of time, got home from work less then 8 hours ago, but it's time to go back already!?? :-(

?

In November 1974, Arafat (May his name be erased!) came to the U.N. for the first time, pistol in his holster at the General Assembly.? Yes, there were demonstrations against this arch-terrorist, but it was the chanting, peaceful kind....even with NYPD snipers staked out on the roof of the New York Hilton Hotel.? But a group of 30 of us from Betar made it TO the U.N. gates and handcuffed ourselves to the gates, splattering animal blood over the sidewalk, and burning an effigy of Arafat.? The police went nuts!!!!? The news guys LOVED it, we were in Army fatigues, and clearly weren't taking any 'poop' (not sure how colorful Ross wants my language to get...) from anyone.

?

??? This was my first arrest, at age 18, but it was done to help save the Jewish people (which is important to note was my mindset at the time.? Not to spend time with the young women I was meeting, but to do ACTION, to help Israel, save Jews and avenge the Holocaust).? It was almost like the old Superman TV show - for ..."Truth, Justice, and the American way..."

?

We got tons of press, including a shot of my blood stained hands (animal blood folks, remember?) handcuffed to the U.N. gates in the New York Daily News - still have the copy.? I also got a copy (someone got it - don't know how) of an Associated Press photo of me (and another guy who later went to prison for bombing Russian facilities....) being lead away in handcuffs.? It's a GREAT shot, and maybe one day when I learn to scan, I can forward it to you guys for your amusement.? It was VERY cool......at that time everyone hated Arafat, and I remember being the 'hero' of the few Jews in the neighborhood, and my mom's friends (although when I called my mom from the police station, she DID ask me if I had enough food to eat with me....once a Jewish mother, always a Jewish mother).? But people congratulated me, and my friends older sister (an 'older woman' of 23, kissed me on the cheek for having been arrested for this cause.? I didn't wash? that cheek for weeks...)

?

Okay, got to make this fast....In the Fall/Winter of 1974/1975 the Disengagement agreement that Henry Kissinger had arranged between Israel and Syria was set to expire, and it was clear that Israel would have to go to war, yet again.? During the War, American planes with desperately needed weapons and ammunition ('cause the Soviets were supplying the Egyptians and the Syrians) reached Israel, after refueling on the Azores Islands, a Portuguese possession. Portugal announced that in the 'event of hostilities inthe Middle East' they would not allow U.S. planes to land - which would have made Israel's resupply impossible.? 

?

??? So, we knew we had to strike out against Portugal immediately.? We would teach them a lesson!!? But how do you attack Portugal in NYC??? We found out there was an office (street level storefront type) of TAP, which actually stood for: "The Airline of Portugal."?? A group of us drove into the city, and TAP was located on 5th Avenue, and 40something street (you guys MUST know what 5th Avenue is like in the evening, right?!?!?).? Two of us got out of the car, both in Army fatigue jackets (Vietnam surplus was still considered 'cool'), both with tire irons.? Gershon (who was still, 'George Green' at the time, and is today a top chemical engineer at Israel's huge refinery in Haifa) was to smash their windows, I was to pound my tire iron in my hand, and look menacing, so no one would interfere.? We would make these Portuguese pay for threatening Israel!

?

He ran up to it, reared back, swung the tire iron...and the window didn't break!!? Damn!!!!!!!?? He gathered all his strength to pound it again, and swung - there was a noise, but no glass breaking!!!!!!!? I guess the third time is a charm, because he then smashed two 'foot sized' holes in the glass, and then we ran like hell, to our waiting get away car.? We yellled at Dave to go, step on it...the care lurched forward and we were immediately smashed into by the NYPD, with their guns pointed out our heads...the good news is that they were the old 38 caliber ones, not the more intimidating 9mm Glock automatics they now carry.?? We were busted.....it seems there had been a high speed car cahse nearby, and this Police car was returning to its precinct, across town, right at that moment; just our luck....and it turns out, we caused $15,000 worth of damage...

?

They acted as if they had just caught the assassins of President Kennedy (and there WAS more then one).? But time is really late, so let me give you the 'Readers Digest' version.? We were stuck in these large,smelly, filthy 'holding cells' which housed 30 or so 'inmates.'? The flotsam and jetsam of NY society...the lowlife creeps you'd cross the street to get away from.? They were now our intimate neighbors.? After standing in the middle of the cell, we finally were too exhausted and we sat down on the filthy, grimy floor (think of the shipboard jail in "Pirates of the Carribean").

?

Now, I'm going to use the actual language spoken to me - please do not think of me as racist, it's just to accurately portray what was said.? A quick glossary of terms though:

Shabbos - the Yiddish way of pronouncing Shabbat

?

Kiddish - Kiddush the sanctification of wine on Shabbat and holidays, but also referred to the giving of wine, cake and some food at some shuls (synagogues) on Shabbat.

?

An extremely well dressed Black man saunters over to us, wearing a light brown three piece suit, wearing a bowler (sp?) hat!!?? We're sitting on the floor, miserable, tired, hungry, and upset we got arrested, when we thought we would get away clear.? What's the point of being arrested if there's no press coverage??

?

He said, "Shalom, Hebrew brothers!!"? We smiled and said 'hi'.? He then asked, "whatcha in for?? Was ya pimpin? (yeah right, these yarmulke wearing, guys with soiled army fatigue jackets were pimping!!)"? He then wanted to know if we dealt drugs, and a whole variety of things.? But he kept asking, "...really now - was ya pimpin'??

?

He came back a few minutes later...and then told us: "Isz (read: 'I') go to shul, every Shabbos!"? We freaked out, asking him if he was Jewish, were did he live, and a million rapid fire questions....He quickly said, "No, no, isz only go for Kiddish..."? Only in New York, right?

?

Later that night, someone came in with a copy of the newspaper, which he read.? He quickly realized that we were the "Jewish militants arrested last night," and came over and said in a shocked, accusatory tone,"Youz broke windows!!!!!!!!"?? It would have been fine to have been a pimp (although my mom would have been disappointed in me..LOL), or to have dealt drugs - but NOT to break windows!!!!!!!?? Too weird.

?

Okay got to go:? Part III will be my demonstration in Russia, JDL Leadership school in Israel with Rav Kahane and friends going to prison.? But most importantly - when did I actully begin truly studying Torah.? All of this links me where I am today....

?

Sorry it's SO long,

??????? Hanoch




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_______________________________________________






?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."? 

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2


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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Thu Nov 29 13:14:09 2007
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:14:09 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
In-Reply-To: <8CA00BA62083F94-90-6042@WEBMAIL-MB01.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CA00BA62083F94-90-6042@WEBMAIL-MB01.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <52EFB25F57AA4F32A34BCC3B0138395A@DickLPC>

         Make it as long as you can Hanoch. Love it !  Dick L.
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II


  Thanks Tammy, I appreciate the kind words.  Believe it or not, this is actually ALL going to make sense (okay, only somewhat, perhaps...), to explain who I am, how I got to be in the midst of THIS group, and why when I say things, you can't always take it as "the standard Jewish view of things."  I am actually leaving out a number of things that make for interesting anecdotes, but maybe some other time.

  After all, Ross asked for a SHORT introduction, not a new War & Peace !!

  Shalom for now,
           Hanoch


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Tammy & Bruce Croley <tsbcroley at yahoo.com>
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 8:50 am
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II


  Good Morning Hanoch,
      Reading about your life is so interesting.   It is almost like reading a novel.......makes my life seem so simple and sheltered.  HaShem has a plan for all of us and so I shouldn't seem as though I am complaining about my life. I truly thank Him for all that I have or have not experienced.  Looking forward to the next installment!
  Shalom,
  Tammy 

  YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: 
    Okay, where were we...so, I'm a kid growing up with the average American Jewish background - little education, memorized how to chant my Haftara (the portion of the prophets that's read in synagogues after the Torah reading every Shabbat) at my Bar Mitzva.  We went to shul (the Yiddish term for synagogue) on the "High Holidays" (Rosh HaShana & Yom Kippur), ate matza on Passover, but didn't keep Kosher or celebrate ('observe,' as some would say) Shabbat.

    BTW (by the way) - if I use any terms you're not familiar with, please write to me, and I will gladly explain them; please feel free, I mean it.  

    I had few friends growing up, and got into more then a few fights with those who viewed me as the local "Christ killer (by my being Jewish, of course..)."  My parents, Of Blessed Memory provided a loving home, and were thrilled that I was able to get the scholarship to go to Israel after H.S. otherwise, we could never have afforded it.  We lived a kind of 'upper lower class' existence - had food on the table, but we didn't have a car, we didn't go on vacation, and I was never able to go away to camp.  Please understand, the reason I'm telling you all of this is to set the scene for how I felt out of place, and didn't just slip into being an average American, instead of a committed, serious Jew.

    My father was a gentle man, who never, ever raised a hand to me.  He had a very tough life (which I didn't find out until years after his death, when his older brother told me stories), growing up in the depression.  He and his brothers used to go around the neighborhood to collect cardboard, so they could 'patch up' the holes in their house, where the wind whipped in.  Dad was in retail men's clothing, and worked six days/week, three nights, and never had more then two weeks vacation in his whole life.  He died of lung cancer at the age of 64, in 1984 (In the '50's my family moved to Savannah, Georgia to manage a clothing store - but no one would buy from a "New York Jew," and the business venture failed.  However, if I had been born less then a year earlier, I would have been a 'Southern Boy!"  What a mix of accents THAT would have been).

    But I'm straying from my story - I remember my dad's favorite thing to do, was to sit in the livingroom, in the dark, listening to cantorial (Jewish liturgical) records.  The mournful (it SOUNDED mournful to me..) sounds were deeply emotional (although I was unfamiliar with the prayers being chanted), and my father would sit there with tears running down his cheeks.....I didn't realize it at the time, but that was my first experience with what I came to realize was an aspect of Jewish spirituality.  Years later, I too would listen to those same records (then taped, as the technology advanced), and at that point I knew what the cantor was chanting, and I too sat and cried...still do, if the truth be told. It was then that I learned the power of music and song that could touch your very soul (even MORE then Black Sabbath's "Paranoid" which I loved to listen to fall asleep! Man, I was weird...)

    But it was my trip to Israel which exposed me to many Jewish 'rituals' that eventually became part of my daily life.  It was in Israel, standing at the top of Masada, where my co-religionists killed themselves rather then be Roman slaves that I saw an ancient pair of tefilin ('phylacteries').  I had seen them, and put them on before my Bar Mitzva, but I didn't even own a pair, myself (I recall my folks offering to buy them for me, and my telling them not to waste their money, I would never use them..).  I actually recall thinking, if King David could put those things on, then maybe I should, too!  I saw a mikva (a ritual bath) on Masada as well, reminding me of how little I really knew about traditional Judaism.

        So, let's review what was going on with little, soon to be 17 year old Hanoch (then still known as "Howie").  I felt fiercely proud of being Jewish, and my heritage, although knowing little of it, I was not accepted by the neighborhood kids, and didn't have the normal/typical "boy/girl" interactions (you guys don't need ALL the specifics, do you?! LOL), I spent 7 amazing weeks in Israel, touring all over the Land.  An Israel that (in the summer of 1973) was cocky and self assured, having won the miraculous 6 Day War, only 7 years before.  

    What would have happened to me then, had the Yom Kippur War not broken out, I don't really know.  I signed up for Hebrew classes (I could read, from having been in Hebrew School) and American Jewish History, but it was at the local branch of the City University of New York (5 blocks from my house!).  So, I didn't have a campus life (read: 'social life').  Relatively 'alone,' starting college, becoming Jewishly aware, enormous rage at the Irish kids I had to fight (AND their sisters, for those 'other' reasons), having just been in Israel, and 7 weeks later - Israel's at war....and losing...badly. Could the Holocaust be happening again?

    I went to demonstrations and rallies, but it was the winter of 1974 (just 2 months after the war) that I joined Betar, which was a bit more 'ideological' then the Jewish Defense League (which I also began to be involved with a year later...).  We read books about the heroes of the Jewish underground movements that fought against the British occupation of the Land of Israel, and that prevented Europe's Jews from reaching a safe haven in what was then called, "Mandatory Palestine."

    We learned to shoot weapons, and took martial arts classes - all to be prepared to help Jews.  Those a bit older then I, went on Aliyah (literally "Going Up") - moving to Israel, and joined the Army.  Oops..running out of time, got home from work less then 8 hours ago, but it's time to go back already!   :-(

    In November 1974, Arafat (May his name be erased!) came to the U.N. for the first time, pistol in his holster at the General Assembly.  Yes, there were demonstrations against this arch-terrorist, but it was the chanting, peaceful kind....even with NYPD snipers staked out on the roof of the New York Hilton Hotel.  But a group of 30 of us from Betar made it TO the U.N. gates and handcuffed ourselves to the gates, splattering animal blood over the sidewalk, and burning an effigy of Arafat.  The police went nuts!!!!  The news guys LOVED it, we were in Army fatigues, and clearly weren't taking any 'poop' (not sure how colorful Ross wants my language to get...) from anyone.

        This was my first arrest, at age 18, but it was done to help save the Jewish people (which is important to note was my mindset at the time.  Not to spend time with the young women I was meeting, but to do ACTION, to help Israel, save Jews and avenge the Holocaust).  It was almost like the old Superman TV show - for ..."Truth, Justice, and the American way..."

    We got tons of press, including a shot of my blood stained hands (animal blood folks, remember?) handcuffed to the U.N. gates in the New York Daily News - still have the copy.  I also got a copy (someone got it - don't know how) of an Associated Press photo of me (and another guy who later went to prison for bombing Russian facilities....) being lead away in handcuffs.  It's a GREAT shot, and maybe one day when I learn to scan, I can forward it to you guys for your amusement.  It was VERY cool......at that time everyone hated Arafat, and I remember being the 'hero' of the few Jews in the neighborhood, and my mom's friends (although when I called my mom from the police station, she DID ask me if I had enough food to eat with me....once a Jewish mother, always a Jewish mother).  But people congratulated me, and my friends older sister (an 'older woman' of 23, kissed me on the cheek for having been arrested for this cause.  I didn't wash  that cheek for weeks...)

    Okay, got to make this fast....In the Fall/Winter of 1974/1975 the Disengagement agreement that Henry Kissinger had arranged between Israel and Syria was set to expire, and it was clear that Israel would have to go to war, yet again.  During the War, American planes with desperately needed weapons and ammunition ('cause the Soviets were supplying the Egyptians and the Syrians) reached Israel, after refueling on the Azores Islands, a Portuguese possession. Portugal announced that in the 'event of hostilities inthe Middle East' they would not allow U.S. planes to land - which would have made Israel's resupply impossible.  

        So, we knew we had to strike out against Portugal immediately.  We would teach them a lesson!!  But how do you attack Portugal in NYC??  We found out there was an office (street level storefront type) of TAP, which actually stood for: "The Airline of Portugal."   A group of us drove into the city, and TAP was located on 5th Avenue, and 40something street (you guys MUST know what 5th Avenue is like in the evening, right?!?!?).  Two of us got out of the car, both in Army fatigue jackets (Vietnam surplus was still considered 'cool'), both with tire irons.  Gershon (who was still, 'George Green' at the time, and is today a top chemical engineer at Israel's huge refinery in Haifa) was to smash their windows, I was to pound my tire iron in my hand, and look menacing, so no one would interfere.  We would make these Portuguese pay for threatening Israel!

    He ran up to it, reared back, swung the tire iron...and the window didn't break!!  Damn!!!!!!!   He gathered all his strength to pound it again, and swung - there was a noise, but no glass breaking!!!!!!!  I guess the third time is a charm, because he then smashed two 'foot sized' holes in the glass, and then we ran like hell, to our waiting get away car.  We yellled at Dave to go, step on it...the care lurched forward and we were immediately smashed into by the NYPD, with their guns pointed out our heads...the good news is that they were the old 38 caliber ones, not the more intimidating 9mm Glock automatics they now carry.   We were busted.....it seems there had been a high speed car cahse nearby, and this Police car was returning to its precinct, across town, right at that moment; just our luck....and it turns out, we caused $15,000 worth of damage...

    They acted as if they had just caught the assassins of President Kennedy (and there WAS more then one).  But time is really late, so let me give you the 'Readers Digest' version.  We were stuck in these large,smelly, filthy 'holding cells' which housed 30 or so 'inmates.'  The flotsam and jetsam of NY society...the lowlife creeps you'd cross the street to get away from.  They were now our intimate neighbors.  After standing in the middle of the cell, we finally were too exhausted and we sat down on the filthy, grimy floor (think of the shipboard jail in "Pirates of the Carribean").

    Now, I'm going to use the actual language spoken to me - please do not think of me as racist, it's just to accurately portray what was said.  A quick glossary of terms though:
    Shabbos - the Yiddish way of pronouncing Shabbat

    Kiddish - Kiddush the sanctification of wine on Shabbat and holidays, but also referred to the giving of wine, cake and some food at some shuls (synagogues) on Shabbat.

    An extremely well dressed Black man saunters over to us, wearing a light brown three piece suit, wearing a bowler (sp?) hat!!   We're sitting on the floor, miserable, tired, hungry, and upset we got arrested, when we thought we would get away clear.  What's the point of being arrested if there's no press coverage??

    He said, "Shalom, Hebrew brothers!!"  We smiled and said 'hi'.  He then asked, "whatcha in for?  Was ya pimpin? (yeah right, these yarmulke wearing, guys with soiled army fatigue jackets were pimping!!)"  He then wanted to know if we dealt drugs, and a whole variety of things.  But he kept asking, "...really now - was ya pimpin'??

    He came back a few minutes later...and then told us: "Isz (read: 'I') go to shul, every Shabbos!"  We freaked out, asking him if he was Jewish, were did he live, and a million rapid fire questions....He quickly said, "No, no, isz only go for Kiddish..."  Only in New York, right?

    Later that night, someone came in with a copy of the newspaper, which he read.  He quickly realized that we were the "Jewish militants arrested last night," and came over and said in a shocked, accusatory tone,"Youz broke windows!!!!!!!!"   It would have been fine to have been a pimp (although my mom would have been disappointed in me..LOL), or to have dealt drugs - but NOT to break windows!!!!!!!   Too weird.

    Okay got to go:  Part III will be my demonstration in Russia, JDL Leadership school in Israel with Rav Kahane and friends going to prison.  But most importantly - when did I actully begin truly studying Torah.  All of this links me where I am today....

    Sorry it's SO long,
            Hanoch





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  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

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From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Thu Nov 29 13:50:46 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:50:46 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
In-Reply-To: <52EFB25F57AA4F32A34BCC3B0138395A@DickLPC>
Message-ID: <20071129145046.4YO25.50033.root@fepweb11>

Ditto, I want every detail.  Maybe you should consider putting it in a book one day.

Kim
---- Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com> wrote: 

=============
         Make it as long as you can Hanoch. Love it !  Dick L.
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II


  Thanks Tammy, I appreciate the kind words.  Believe it or not, this is actually ALL going to make sense (okay, only somewhat, perhaps...), to explain who I am, how I got to be in the midst of THIS group, and why when I say things, you can't always take it as "the standard Jewish view of things."  I am actually leaving out a number of things that make for interesting anecdotes, but maybe some other time.

  After all, Ross asked for a SHORT introduction, not a new War & Peace !!

  Shalom for now,
           Hanoch


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Tammy & Bruce Croley <tsbcroley at yahoo.com>
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 8:50 am
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II


  Good Morning Hanoch,
      Reading about your life is so interesting.   It is almost like reading a novel.......makes my life seem so simple and sheltered.  HaShem has a plan for all of us and so I shouldn't seem as though I am complaining about my life. I truly thank Him for all that I have or have not experienced.  Looking forward to the next installment!
  Shalom,
  Tammy 

  YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: 
    Okay, where were we...so, I'm a kid growing up with the average American Jewish background - little education, memorized how to chant my Haftara (the portion of the prophets that's read in synagogues after the Torah reading every Shabbat) at my Bar Mitzva.  We went to shul (the Yiddish term for synagogue) on the "High Holidays" (Rosh HaShana & Yom Kippur), ate matza on Passover, but didn't keep Kosher or celebrate ('observe,' as some would say) Shabbat.

    BTW (by the way) - if I use any terms you're not familiar with, please write to me, and I will gladly explain them; please feel free, I mean it.  

    I had few friends growing up, and got into more then a few fights with those who viewed me as the local "Christ killer (by my being Jewish, of course..)."  My parents, Of Blessed Memory provided a loving home, and were thrilled that I was able to get the scholarship to go to Israel after H.S. otherwise, we could never have afforded it.  We lived a kind of 'upper lower class' existence - had food on the table, but we didn't have a car, we didn't go on vacation, and I was never able to go away to camp.  Please understand, the reason I'm telling you all of this is to set the scene for how I felt out of place, and didn't just slip into being an average American, instead of a committed, serious Jew.

    My father was a gentle man, who never, ever raised a hand to me.  He had a very tough life (which I didn't find out until years after his death, when his older brother told me stories), growing up in the depression.  He and his brothers used to go around the neighborhood to collect cardboard, so they could 'patch up' the holes in their house, where the wind whipped in.  Dad was in retail men's clothing, and worked six days/week, three nights, and never had more then two weeks vacation in his whole life.  He died of lung cancer at the age of 64, in 1984 (In the '50's my family moved to Savannah, Georgia to manage a clothing store - but no one would buy from a "New York Jew," and the business venture failed.  However, if I had been born less then a year earlier, I would have been a 'Southern Boy!"  What a mix of accents THAT would have been).

    But I'm straying from my story - I remember my dad's favorite thing to do, was to sit in the livingroom, in the dark, listening to cantorial (Jewish liturgical) records.  The mournful (it SOUNDED mournful to me..) sounds were deeply emotional (although I was unfamiliar with the prayers being chanted), and my father would sit there with tears running down his cheeks.....I didn't realize it at the time, but that was my first experience with what I came to realize was an aspect of Jewish spirituality.  Years later, I too would listen to those same records (then taped, as the technology advanced), and at that point I knew what the cantor was chanting, and I too sat and cried...still do, if the truth be told. It was then that I learned the power of music and song that could touch your very soul (even MORE then Black Sabbath's "Paranoid" which I loved to listen to fall asleep! Man, I was weird...)

    But it was my trip to Israel which exposed me to many Jewish 'rituals' that eventually became part of my daily life.  It was in Israel, standing at the top of Masada, where my co-religionists killed themselves rather then be Roman slaves that I saw an ancient pair of tefilin ('phylacteries').  I had seen them, and put them on before my Bar Mitzva, but I didn't even own a pair, myself (I recall my folks offering to buy them for me, and my telling them not to waste their money, I would never use them..).  I actually recall thinking, if King David could put those things on, then maybe I should, too!  I saw a mikva (a ritual bath) on Masada as well, reminding me of how little I really knew about traditional Judaism.

        So, let's review what was going on with little, soon to be 17 year old Hanoch (then still known as "Howie").  I felt fiercely proud of being Jewish, and my heritage, although knowing little of it, I was not accepted by the neighborhood kids, and didn't have the normal/typical "boy/girl" interactions (you guys don't need ALL the specifics, do you?! LOL), I spent 7 amazing weeks in Israel, touring all over the Land.  An Israel that (in the summer of 1973) was cocky and self assured, having won the miraculous 6 Day War, only 7 years before.  

    What would have happened to me then, had the Yom Kippur War not broken out, I don't really know.  I signed up for Hebrew classes (I could read, from having been in Hebrew School) and American Jewish History, but it was at the local branch of the City University of New York (5 blocks from my house!).  So, I didn't have a campus life (read: 'social life').  Relatively 'alone,' starting college, becoming Jewishly aware, enormous rage at the Irish kids I had to fight (AND their sisters, for those 'other' reasons), having just been in Israel, and 7 weeks later - Israel's at war....and losing...badly. Could the Holocaust be happening again?

    I went to demonstrations and rallies, but it was the winter of 1974 (just 2 months after the war) that I joined Betar, which was a bit more 'ideological' then the Jewish Defense League (which I also began to be involved with a year later...).  We read books about the heroes of the Jewish underground movements that fought against the British occupation of the Land of Israel, and that prevented Europe's Jews from reaching a safe haven in what was then called, "Mandatory Palestine."

    We learned to shoot weapons, and took martial arts classes - all to be prepared to help Jews.  Those a bit older then I, went on Aliyah (literally "Going Up") - moving to Israel, and joined the Army.  Oops..running out of time, got home from work less then 8 hours ago, but it's time to go back already!   :-(

    In November 1974, Arafat (May his name be erased!) came to the U.N. for the first time, pistol in his holster at the General Assembly.  Yes, there were demonstrations against this arch-terrorist, but it was the chanting, peaceful kind....even with NYPD snipers staked out on the roof of the New York Hilton Hotel.  But a group of 30 of us from Betar made it TO the U.N. gates and handcuffed ourselves to the gates, splattering animal blood over the sidewalk, and burning an effigy of Arafat.  The police went nuts!!!!  The news guys LOVED it, we were in Army fatigues, and clearly weren't taking any 'poop' (not sure how colorful Ross wants my language to get...) from anyone.

        This was my first arrest, at age 18, but it was done to help save the Jewish people (which is important to note was my mindset at the time.  Not to spend time with the young women I was meeting, but to do ACTION, to help Israel, save Jews and avenge the Holocaust).  It was almost like the old Superman TV show - for ..."Truth, Justice, and the American way..."

    We got tons of press, including a shot of my blood stained hands (animal blood folks, remember?) handcuffed to the U.N. gates in the New York Daily News - still have the copy.  I also got a copy (someone got it - don't know how) of an Associated Press photo of me (and another guy who later went to prison for bombing Russian facilities....) being lead away in handcuffs.  It's a GREAT shot, and maybe one day when I learn to scan, I can forward it to you guys for your amusement.  It was VERY cool......at that time everyone hated Arafat, and I remember being the 'hero' of the few Jews in the neighborhood, and my mom's friends (although when I called my mom from the police station, she DID ask me if I had enough food to eat with me....once a Jewish mother, always a Jewish mother).  But people congratulated me, and my friends older sister (an 'older woman' of 23, kissed me on the cheek for having been arrested for this cause.  I didn't wash  that cheek for weeks...)

    Okay, got to make this fast....In the Fall/Winter of 1974/1975 the Disengagement agreement that Henry Kissinger had arranged between Israel and Syria was set to expire, and it was clear that Israel would have to go to war, yet again.  During the War, American planes with desperately needed weapons and ammunition ('cause the Soviets were supplying the Egyptians and the Syrians) reached Israel, after refueling on the Azores Islands, a Portuguese possession. Portugal announced that in the 'event of hostilities inthe Middle East' they would not allow U.S. planes to land - which would have made Israel's resupply impossible.  

        So, we knew we had to strike out against Portugal immediately.  We would teach them a lesson!!  But how do you attack Portugal in NYC??  We found out there was an office (street level storefront type) of TAP, which actually stood for: "The Airline of Portugal."   A group of us drove into the city, and TAP was located on 5th Avenue, and 40something street (you guys MUST know what 5th Avenue is like in the evening, right?!?!?).  Two of us got out of the car, both in Army fatigue jackets (Vietnam surplus was still considered 'cool'), both with tire irons.  Gershon (who was still, 'George Green' at the time, and is today a top chemical engineer at Israel's huge refinery in Haifa) was to smash their windows, I was to pound my tire iron in my hand, and look menacing, so no one would interfere.  We would make these Portuguese pay for threatening Israel!

    He ran up to it, reared back, swung the tire iron...and the window didn't break!!  Damn!!!!!!!   He gathered all his strength to pound it again, and swung - there was a noise, but no glass breaking!!!!!!!  I guess the third time is a charm, because he then smashed two 'foot sized' holes in the glass, and then we ran like hell, to our waiting get away car.  We yellled at Dave to go, step on it...the care lurched forward and we were immediately smashed into by the NYPD, with their guns pointed out our heads...the good news is that they were the old 38 caliber ones, not the more intimidating 9mm Glock automatics they now carry.   We were busted.....it seems there had been a high speed car cahse nearby, and this Police car was returning to its precinct, across town, right at that moment; just our luck....and it turns out, we caused $15,000 worth of damage...

    They acted as if they had just caught the assassins of President Kennedy (and there WAS more then one).  But time is really late, so let me give you the 'Readers Digest' version.  We were stuck in these large,smelly, filthy 'holding cells' which housed 30 or so 'inmates.'  The flotsam and jetsam of NY society...the lowlife creeps you'd cross the street to get away from.  They were now our intimate neighbors.  After standing in the middle of the cell, we finally were too exhausted and we sat down on the filthy, grimy floor (think of the shipboard jail in "Pirates of the Carribean").

    Now, I'm going to use the actual language spoken to me - please do not think of me as racist, it's just to accurately portray what was said.  A quick glossary of terms though:
    Shabbos - the Yiddish way of pronouncing Shabbat

    Kiddish - Kiddush the sanctification of wine on Shabbat and holidays, but also referred to the giving of wine, cake and some food at some shuls (synagogues) on Shabbat.

    An extremely well dressed Black man saunters over to us, wearing a light brown three piece suit, wearing a bowler (sp?) hat!!   We're sitting on the floor, miserable, tired, hungry, and upset we got arrested, when we thought we would get away clear.  What's the point of being arrested if there's no press coverage??

    He said, "Shalom, Hebrew brothers!!"  We smiled and said 'hi'.  He then asked, "whatcha in for?  Was ya pimpin? (yeah right, these yarmulke wearing, guys with soiled army fatigue jackets were pimping!!)"  He then wanted to know if we dealt drugs, and a whole variety of things.  But he kept asking, "...really now - was ya pimpin'??

    He came back a few minutes later...and then told us: "Isz (read: 'I') go to shul, every Shabbos!"  We freaked out, asking him if he was Jewish, were did he live, and a million rapid fire questions....He quickly said, "No, no, isz only go for Kiddish..."  Only in New York, right?

    Later that night, someone came in with a copy of the newspaper, which he read.  He quickly realized that we were the "Jewish militants arrested last night," and came over and said in a shocked, accusatory tone,"Youz broke windows!!!!!!!!"   It would have been fine to have been a pimp (although my mom would have been disappointed in me..LOL), or to have dealt drugs - but NOT to break windows!!!!!!!   Too weird.

    Okay got to go:  Part III will be my demonstration in Russia, JDL Leadership school in Israel with Rav Kahane and friends going to prison.  But most importantly - when did I actully begin truly studying Torah.  All of this links me where I am today....

    Sorry it's SO long,
            Hanoch





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  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Thu Nov 29 14:19:03 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:19:03 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] THE saga..Part III (pardon the length)
Message-ID: <8CA00DC385E8758-DD8-D70@FWM-D42.sysops.aol.com>


So, here's little 18 year old militant Hanoch, training with weapons, preparing to lead the battle to save Jews (anywhere in the world), along with his other Betar/JDL friends, all with the same mindset.? It was at this juncture that I began taking JUDAISM seriously, not merely "Jewish Activism", or "Jewish Militancy" (neither of those terms describe what we were about - we were practically wackos, prepared to do whatever it took to help Jews.? And I mean WHATEVER.? Several friends went to prison for transporting explosives over State lines, setting off pipe bombs (against the Soviets, Egyptians, you name it), and firing bullets through the door of the Soviet residence in the Bronx.? It DID lead to a great chant though during demonstrations - "1, 2, 3, 4, four more bullets through your door....5,6,7,8 let my people emigrate!"? :-) 

Other actions against the Russians involved standing in front of the Soviet consulate in Manhattan (New York's got EVERYTHING - you've got to love it!) and harassing Soviet diplomats and their families.? Our view - if Jews were harassed in the Soviet Union, then Soviets would experience the same thing in NYC!? We followed these people (the cops kept us at a distance) screaming the most vile obscenities in Russian that we were able to learn.? We weren't going to let them be comfortable if Jews were suffering in their country....

I began putting on tefilin in the morning, and observing Shabbat.? Since my folks didn't keep a kosher home, I put a cabinet in the kitchen with my own plates, pans and silverware.? I already knew how to read Hebrew and had picked up a few words in Israel, too, and had a background that had a bit of a "Jewish flavor" - for lack of a better term.? After more then a year of that, my mom (Of Blessed Memory), who I miss every single day of my life....made the entire kitchen Kosher while I was in Israel.? My mom was the rock of my life....she was fiercely proud of what I did, although she was scared when I went out to demonstrations, and of course, when I headed to the Soviet Union.

There wasn't a book on a Jewish topic that I didn't try to get my hands on (and in NYC, trust me - there are a LOT!), and read voraciously.? Particularly Jewish history, and anything to do with Israel.? My knowledge grew, and I began studying Tanach (the complete Hebrew Bible), although in English, without the numerous Rabbinic commentaries, which would have illuminated it for me.....I wound up doing it the hard way.? I began soaking it all in like a sponge.? 

In Betar, meanwhile, we were always planning the next 'action.' most of which is best not described in email format? :-)? However, in March of 1975, we did one of the coolest things I ever did (and still have the New York Times clipping from it!?)? Syria was harshly oppressing the 5,000 Jews left in that country, and we needed to do something.....? At the time, Pan Am was the only American airline flying to Syria.? SO, we warned them to stop flying there, and then....took action.

On the day before Passover (1975), we launched our own '10 Plagues Against Pan Am!'? We went to their central offices, near 42nd Street Grand Central Station, and STRUCK!!? We threw boxes and boxes full of live grasshoppers (we couldn't order locusts by mail..), white mice, roaches (a New York specialty!) and splattered their windows and floors with animal blood (that was my particular contribution!).? It made enormous press do to the clever connection with the Passover holiday, and the fact that it was totally non-violent (in the early 70's a JDL action using smoke bombs caused a person to die, in what should have been a harmless event).

But Betar wasn't doing quite enough, and I wanted to learn more Torah too - so I turned to JDL, and Rav Meir Kahane.? JDL was going to run a special leadership training program in Israel that summer (it's now 1976....Hanoch is now 19.5 years old, and has all the answers to what's ailing the Jewish people....), 7 intensive weeks directly with Rav Kahane himself - learning Jewish sources, how to speak in public (he was one of the greatest public speakers in history), how to organize demonstrations, you name it!? It was only going to be a select group of 8 chosen nationally.? I not only 'made the cut,' but was chosen to be the 'group leader.'? I've often wondered about that term, 'group leader,' it made me feel like I was a fighter pilot leading a squadron into action, during the Battle of Britian....But I'm skipping ahead...let's go back to '75......

My average in college plummeted, as I cut classes to go to demonstrations, make phone calls, distribute fliers.? I was TOTALLY dedicated to the cause, and actually remember times when I passed up walking a young woman home ("my parents are at work, you know..."), so I could go into the Betar (later, JDL) office to do work for 'the cause'.? Sighhhhhhhh.....Yes, there ARE indeed regrets....?? :-)? Nothing interfered with the ideological 'work' - nothing came before the cause.? No matter HOW pretty she was.......

If you read the classic Eric Hoffer book, The True Believer you will know exactly how I felt.? I went to Israel with two friends in the Summer of '75, working on a Moshav (semi-cooperative set up).? We went to Moshav Nordiya, outside of Netanya.? This was a moshav formed by veterans of the two pre-State of Israel, Jewish underground movements - The Irgun Tzvai Leumi (The 'Irgun' - the National Military Organization) and the Lechi (Lohamei Herut Yisrael - Fighters for the Freedom of Israel).? They had an imposing memorial in the center of their grounds, dedicated to those fighters who the British military occupiers sentenced to death, and hung.....

There are a million stories from those three months, but the key point was that I was involved over that summer with everything BUT learning Torah.? This I came to realize was a terrible, terrible mistake - but it wasn't until I was back in New York that I began to understand that.? It was from that moment on, that I intensified my commitment to learning and LIVING Judaism (still trying, BTW...)

We're now in the winter of '76, and we in Betar were convinced we have to do something to help save Soviet Jews.? That February, all the 'establishment' Jewish organizations were going to have a (USELESS) conference in Brussels, and we picked that time to act....? There was a Doctor, by the name of Mikhail Shtern, who had tried to emigrate to Israel, but was imprisoned, and mistreated and was in poor health.? It was on behalf of Dr. Shtern that we acted.....it's always easier to focus on one person, then on 3 million....

Seven of us flew to Moscow (with a plane change in Warsaw, of all places)....and planned to stage a sit-in at the Soviet Ministry of Health, which we did the third day that we were there.? While we did, two of our friends disrupted the Brussels conference, throwing fliers in the air as they were tackled by the Belgium security. They began publicizing our simultaneous sit in in Moscow....That same day (allowing for the time difference), 12 other Betarim (the plural of the singular, 'Betari', for those of you taking Ross' Hebrew classes) took over the New York offices of Tass, the Soviet news agency in the U.S.?? We raised hell in three countries!!!!!!? All to publicize the situation of Dr. Shtern, and all of Soviet Jewry.

We were taken away by the Soviet 'militia' - who were among the biggest, toughest looking and UGLY men I've ever seen.? Our tourists visas were canceled (BIG shock there, right?) and we were taken to the airport and put on a flight to London.? I'm simplifying it now, but it was scary...we had offered ourselves in place of Dr. Shtern to serve out the remaining 7 years of his prison sentence in Siberia.? We were determined to be 100% serious about that offer, BTW...at 18 years old, you aren't afraid of anything..... One day, maybe I'll tell you all that happened there, but it was scary....Only a non-worldly kid could have done what we did.? I have pictures of me in Red Square...very weird to look at those now....

?Wow...am I only on Part III still??? Sorry guys, but this is where it really starts to get interesting, where I really began learning an enormous amount of Torah, Where I met Rav Kahane, where I made the two biggest mistakes in my life, how I stumbled upon the UIWU, and of course, my pride and joy - my two amazing daughters.? And of course - what this all means for you guys!? :-)

???????????? Hanoch

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From youngbarzel at aol.com  Thu Nov 29 14:23:36 2007
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:23:36 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
In-Reply-To: <20071129145046.4YO25.50033.root@fepweb11>
Message-ID: <8CA00DCDB1CD797-DD8-DC3@FWM-D42.sysops.aol.com>

You guys crack me up!!? Let me get through THIS version first, and I'll keep throwing little stories your way if you'd like, okay?!? :-)? Remind me to tell you about practicing reading Hebrew in a Catholic Church (my classroom at the local Public School had just burned down).? And I've got hundreds more.....just living in NYC is an experience!? But what I've gone through really, really has a lot to do with whatever it is that I might be able to offer this 'synagogue without walls.'? And like I've already said, it's the friendliest shul (synagogue) I've ever been in!!!!!!!

?? Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 2:50 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II



Ditto, I want every detail.  Maybe you should consider putting it in a book one 
ay.
Kim
--- Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com> wrote: 
=============
        Make it as long as you can Hanoch. Love it !  Dick L.
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II

 Thanks Tammy, I appreciate the kind words.  Believe it or not, this is 
ctually ALL going to make sense (okay, only somewhat, perhaps...), to explain 
ho I am, how I got to be in the midst of THIS group, and why when I say things, 
ou can't always take it as "the standard Jewish view of things."  I am actually 
eaving out a number of things that make for interesting anecdotes, but maybe 
ome other time.
  After all, Ross asked for a SHORT introduction, not a new War & Peace !!
  Shalom for now,
          Hanoch

 -----Original Message-----
 From: Tammy & Bruce Croley <tsbcroley at yahoo.com>
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 8:50 am
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II

 Good Morning Hanoch,
     Reading about your life is so interesting.   It is almost like reading a 
ovel.......makes my life seem so simple and sheltered.  HaShem has a plan for 
ll of us and so I shouldn't seem as though I am complaining about my life. I 
ruly thank Him for all that I have or have not experienced.  Looking forward to 
he next installment!
 Shalom,
 Tammy 
  YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: 
   Okay, where were we...so, I'm a kid growing up with the average American 
ewish background - little education, memorized how to chant my Haftara (the 
ortion of the prophets that's read in synagogues after the Torah reading every 
habbat) at my Bar Mitzva.  We went to shul (the Yiddish term for synagogue) on 
he "High Holidays" (Rosh HaShana & Yom Kippur), ate matza on Passover, but 
idn't keep Kosher or celebrate ('observe,' as some would say) Shabbat.
    BTW (by the way) - if I use any terms you're not familiar with, please write 
o me, and I will gladly explain them; please feel free, I mean it.  
    I had few friends growing up, and got into more then a few fights with those 
ho viewed me as the local "Christ killer (by my being Jewish, of course..)."  
y parents, Of Blessed Memory provided a loving home, and were thrilled that I 
as able to get the scholarship to go to Israel after H.S. otherwise, we could 
ever have afforded it.  We lived a kind of 'upper lower class' existence - had 
ood on the table, but we didn't have a car, we didn't go on vacation, and I was 
ever able to go away to camp.  Please understand, the reason I'm telling you 
ll of this is to set the scene for how I felt out of place, and didn't just 
lip into being an average American, instead of a committed, serious Jew.
    My father was a gentle man, who never, ever raised a hand to me.  He had a 
ery tough life (which I didn't find out until years after his death, when his 
lder brother told me stories), growing up in the depression.  He and his 
rothers used to go around the neighborhood to collect cardboard, so they could 
patch up' the holes in their house, where the wind whipped in.  Dad was in 
etail men's clothing, and worked six days/week, three nights, and never had 
ore then two weeks vacation in his whole life.  He died of lung cancer at the 
ge of 64, in 1984 (In the '50's my family moved to Savannah, Georgia to manage 
 clothing store - but no one would buy from a "New York Jew," and the business 
enture failed.  However, if I had been born less then a year earlier, I would 
ave been a 'Southern Boy!"  What a mix of accents THAT would have been).
    But I'm straying from my story - I remember my dad's favorite thing to do, 
as to sit in the livingroom, in the dark, listening to cantorial (Jewish 
iturgical) records.  The mournful (it SOUNDED mournful to me..) sounds were 
eeply emotional (although I was unfamiliar with the prayers being chanted), and 
y father would sit there with tears running down his cheeks.....I didn't 
ealize it at the time, but that was my first experience with what I came to 
ealize was an aspect of Jewish spirituality.  Years later, I too would listen 
o those same records (then taped, as the technology advanced), and at that 
oint I knew what the cantor was chanting, and I too sat and cried...still do, 
f the truth be told. It was then that I learned the power of music and song 
hat could touch your very soul (even MORE then Black Sabbath's "Paranoid" which 
 loved to listen to fall asleep! Man, I was weird...)
    But it was my trip to Israel which exposed me to many Jewish 'rituals' that 
ventually became part of my daily life.  It was in Israel, standing at the top 
f Masada, where my co-religionists killed themselves rather then be Roman 
laves that I saw an ancient pair of tefilin ('phylacteries').  I had seen them, 
nd put them on before my Bar Mitzva, but I didn't even own a pair, myself (I 
ecall my folks offering to buy them for me, and my telling them not to waste 
heir money, I would never use them..).  I actually recall thinking, if King 
avid could put those things on, then maybe I should, too!  I saw a mikva (a 
itual bath) on Masada as well, reminding me of how little I really knew about 
raditional Judaism.
        So, let's review what was going on with little, soon to be 17 year old 
anoch (then still known as "Howie").  I felt fiercely proud of being Jewish, 
nd my heritage, although knowing little of it, I was not accepted by the 
eighborhood kids, and didn't have the normal/typical "boy/girl" interactions 
you guys don't need ALL the specifics, do you?! LOL), I spent 7 amazing weeks 
n Israel, touring all over the Land.  An Israel that (in the summer of 1973) 
as cocky and self assured, having won the miraculous 6 Day War, only 7 years 
efore.  
    What would have happened to me then, had the Yom Kippur War not broken out, 
 don't really know.  I signed up for Hebrew classes (I could read, from having 
een in Hebrew School) and American Jewish History, but it was at the local 
ranch of the City University of New York (5 blocks from my house!).  So, I 
idn't have a campus life (read: 'social life').  Relatively 'alone,' starting 
ollege, becoming Jewishly aware, enormous rage at the Irish kids I had to fight 
AND their sisters, for those 'other' reasons), having just been in Israel, and 
 weeks later - Israel's at war....and losing...badly. Could the Holocaust be 
appening again?
    I went to demonstrations and rallies, but it was the winter of 1974 (just 2 
onths after the war) that I joined Betar, which was a bit more 'ideological' 
hen the Jewish Defense League (which I also began to be involved with a year 
ater...).  We read books about the heroes of the Jewish underground movements 
hat fought against the British occupation of the Land of Israel, and that 
revented Europe's Jews from reaching a safe haven in what was then called, 
Mandatory Palestine."
    We learned to shoot weapons, and took martial arts classes - all to be 
repared to help Jews.  Those a bit older then I, went on Aliyah (literally 
Going Up") - moving to Israel, and joined the Army.  Oops..running out of time, 
ot home from work less then 8 hours ago, but it's time to go back already!   
-(
    In November 1974, Arafat (May his name be erased!) came to the U.N. for the 
irst time, pistol in his holster at the General Assembly.  Yes, there were 
emonstrations against this arch-terrorist, but it was the chanting, peaceful 
ind....even with NYPD snipers staked out on the roof of the New York Hilton 
otel.  But a group of 30 of us from Betar made it TO the U.N. gates and 
andcuffed ourselves to the gates, splattering animal blood over the sidewalk, 
nd burning an effigy of Arafat.  The police went nuts!!!!  The news guys LOVED 
t, we were in Army fatigues, and clearly weren't taking any 'poop' (not sure 
ow colorful Ross wants my language to get...) from anyone.
        This was my first arrest, at age 18, but it was done to help save the 
ewish people (which is important to note was my mindset at the time.  Not to 
pend time with the young women I was meeting, but to do ACTION, to help Israel, 
ave Jews and avenge the Holocaust).  It was almost like the old Superman TV 
how - for ..."Truth, Justice, and the American way..."
    We got tons of press, including a shot of my blood stained hands (animal 
lood folks, remember?) handcuffed to the U.N. gates in the New York Daily News 
 still have the copy.  I also got a copy (someone got it - don't know how) of 
n Associated Press photo of me (and another guy who later went to prison for 
ombing Russian facilities....) being lead away in handcuffs.  It's a GREAT 
hot, and maybe one day when I learn to scan, I can forward it to you guys for 
our amusement.  It was VERY cool......at that time everyone hated Arafat, and I 
emember being the 'hero' of the few Jews in the neighborhood, and my mom's 
riends (although when I called my mom from the police station, she DID ask me 
f I had enough food to eat with me....once a Jewish mother, always a Jewish 
other).  But people congratulated me, and my friends older sister (an 'older 
oman' of 23, kissed me on the cheek for having been arrested for this cause.  I 
idn't wash  that cheek for weeks...)
    Okay, got to make this fast....In the Fall/Winter of 1974/1975 the 
isengagement agreement that Henry Kissinger had arranged between Israel and 
yria was set to expire, and it was clear that Israel would have to go to war, 
et again.  During the War, American planes with desperately needed weapons and 
mmunition ('cause the Soviets were supplying the Egyptians and the Syrians) 
eached Israel, after refueling on the Azores Islands, a Portuguese possession. 
ortugal announced that in the 'event of hostilities inthe Middle East' they 
ould not allow U.S. planes to land - which would have made Israel's resupply 
mpossible.  
        So, we knew we had to strike out against Portugal immediately.  We would 
each them a lesson!!  But how do you attack Portugal in NYC??  We found out 
here was an office (street level storefront type) of TAP, which actually stood 
or: "The Airline of Portugal."   A group of us drove into the city, and TAP was 
ocated on 5th Avenue, and 40something street (you guys MUST know what 5th 
venue is like in the evening, right?!?!?).  Two of us got out of the car, both 
n Army fatigue jackets (Vietnam surplus was still considered 'cool'), both with 
ire irons.  Gershon (who was still, 'George Green' at the time, and is today a 
op chemical engineer at Israel's huge refinery in Haifa) was to smash their 
indows, I was to pound my tire iron in my hand, and look menacing, so no one 
ould interfere.  We would make these Portuguese pay for threatening Israel!
    He ran up to it, reared back, swung the tire iron...and the window didn't 
reak!!  Damn!!!!!!!   He gathered all his strength to pound it again, and swung 
 there was a noise, but no glass breaking!!!!!!!  I guess the third time is a 
harm, because he then smashed two 'foot sized' holes in the glass, and then we 
an like hell, to our waiting get away car.  We yellled at Dave to go, step on 
t...the care lurched forward and we were immediately smashed into by the NYPD, 
ith their guns pointed out our heads...the good news is that they were the old 
8 caliber ones, not the more intimidating 9mm Glock automatics they now carry.   
e were busted.....it seems there had been a high speed car cahse nearby, and 
his Police car was returning to its precinct, across town, right at that 
oment; just our luck....and it turns out, we caused $15,000 worth of damage...
    They acted as if they had just caught the assassins of President Kennedy 
and there WAS more then one).  But time is really late, so let me give you the 
Readers Digest' version.  We were stuck in these large,smelly, filthy 'holding 
ells' which housed 30 or so 'inmates.'  The flotsam and jetsam of NY 
ociety...the lowlife creeps you'd cross the street to get away from.  They were 
ow our intimate neighbors.  After standing in the middle of the cell, we 
inally were too exhausted and we sat down on the filthy, grimy floor (think of 
he shipboard jail in "Pirates of the Carribean").
    Now, I'm going to use the actual language spoken to me - please do not think 
f me as racist, it's just to accurately portray what was said.  A quick 
lossary of terms though:
   Shabbos - the Yiddish way of pronouncing Shabbat
    Kiddish - Kiddush the sanctification of wine on Shabbat and holidays, but 
lso referred to the giving of wine, cake and some food at some shuls 
synagogues) on Shabbat.
    An extremely well dressed Black man saunters over to us, wearing a light 
rown three piece suit, wearing a bowler (sp?) hat!!   We're sitting on the 
loor, miserable, tired, hungry, and upset we got arrested, when we thought we 
ould get away clear.  What's the point of being arrested if there's no press 
overage??
    He said, "Shalom, Hebrew brothers!!"  We smiled and said 'hi'.  He then 
sked, "whatcha in for?  Was ya pimpin? (yeah right, these yarmulke wearing, 
uys with soiled army fatigue jackets were pimping!!)"  He then wanted to know 
f we dealt drugs, and a whole variety of things.  But he kept asking, 
...really now - was ya pimpin'??
    He came back a few minutes later...and then told us: "Isz (read: 'I') go to 
hul, every Shabbos!"  We freaked out, asking him if he was Jewish, were did he 
ive, and a million rapid fire questions....He quickly said, "No, no, isz only 
o for Kiddish..."  Only in New York, right?
    Later that night, someone came in with a copy of the newspaper, which he 
ead.  He quickly realized that we were the "Jewish militants arrested last 
ight," and came over and said in a shocked, accusatory tone,"Youz broke 
indows!!!!!!!!"   It would have been fine to have been a pimp (although my mom 
ould have been disappointed in me..LOL), or to have dealt drugs - but NOT to 
reak windows!!!!!!!   Too weird.
    Okay got to go:  Part III will be my demonstration in Russia, JDL Leadership 
chool in Israel with Rav Kahane and friends going to prison.  But most 
mportantly - when did I actully begin truly studying Torah.  All of this links 
e where I am today....
    Sorry it's SO long,
           Hanoch


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 ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my 
very movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good 
nd I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant 
pon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His 
ill."  
                                                           Rabbi Nachman's 
isdom 2
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From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Thu Nov 29 14:52:32 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:52:32 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Letter to world leaders (response to ROF bulletin)
In-Reply-To: <fa126c6939290d25cda2a0c839cb20d8@www.imsclients.com>
Message-ID: <20071129155232.DS2JI.53294.root@fepweb11>

Ross,

Why don't we attempt to get this message to world leaders.  Email is fast and free. The Temple Institute has some email addresses.  I can compile a list.  Never know, one might actually be read...  I have written letters and I'm sure many in the group have as well, but the passages you mention below should be included in our correspondence as well as points you brought up in the letter you sent out to all of us.  

Kim
---- Roots of Faith <bulletin at rootsoffaith.org> wrote: 

=============
Shalom to all!



This week I have been flooded with insights while preparing my lesson.
I simply can't wait until this Saturday morning's class. We are living
in exciting times. This week, while leaders from all over the world
convened in Annapolis, Maryland to discuss among other things, the
future of Jerusalem, I have been busy studying what God's word has to
say about it.



You shouldn't be surprised to find out that there is a great difference
between what various political leaders have in mind and what God sets
forth in the Bible through His prophets.



You may however be surprised to learn that the ancient Triennial cycle
reading from the Law and the Prophets to be read this Saturday, speaks
directly about this subject. 



In this week's Torah reading (Genesis 12 and 13) as well as the
Prophets reading (Joshua 24) we read very clearly that God gave the
land of Israel to Abram and his seed, specifically through Isaac and
Jacob.



In my estimation, the return of the Jewish people to the land promised
to the patriarchs in our day, is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.
This return of Israel to the "promised land" is perhaps the most
prominent theme in the Hebrew Prophets, mentioned in over 40 major
sections of the texts. As I have pointed out before, God's restoration
of Israel to the promised land is the one thing that He will do with
"all His heart and all His soul" - Jeremiah 32:41.



One should take note that God calls this small and highly contested
land - "my land" in Joel 3:2.  Jews, Christians and Moslems all lay
claim to it in all or in part, but this week's class will make clear
that the "title / deed" was promised by God to a single family -
Israel!



It is commonly referred to today as the "Holy Land". (See Zechariah
2:13 for the one time in the Bible where this name is used to refer to
"the Land" of Israel). 



In my studies this week I found one passage to be most incredible.
Popular translations don't do justice to this passage and so I have
translated it myself in order to render it more closely to the original
Hebrew. It may seem awkward in English, but this literal rendering is
much better I think. In Deuteronomy 11:12 we find that this land is;



"a land which the LORD your God searches her continually: the eyes of
the LORD are on her, from the beginning of the year and until the end
of the year." 



Think about that! Can you imagine God searching this land continually
throughout the year with His eyes? The image I get is of a guard
looking up and down this strip of land from a strategic viewpoint!



Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme
importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I
only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders,
participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic
heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or
synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would
especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel had to
say about the subject that they now consider.



In the third chapter of Joel we read:



KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall
bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather
all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat,
and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage
Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my
land.



The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It
means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all nations is
brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY
land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on "in the
news". 



There will be a handout of maps for this Saturday's class. I will have
copies for those that attend, and will have a link to a pdf of the
document on the main page of my website by Saturday morning so that
those listening in can see this land as viewed from heaven. I would
also encourage you to look at the maps in your Bible this week. Most
good study Bibles have maps. The best maps, in my opinion, are those
published by Oxford.



You will not want to miss this week's class - The Holy Land - God's
gift to Israel



The Gates with Joseph Good



For those that are interested, the 2nd of 4 classes on the "Return of
Israel" in which I appear with Joe Good, has been published on the
Universal Torah Network's website. A link to the shows appears on my
website. In these classes, Joe and I discuss this topic extensively.



A New Look for the Website



I encourage you to check out the website if you have not done so in a
while. It has a brand new look! It is also gaining popularity.
Yesterday we broke a record for highest number of visits in one day (at
761).  We are averaging well over 500 visits per day from all over the
world. I am excited about all that is going on and am pleased that so
many are finding our teachings and music to be inspirational to them as
they seek the Roots of their Faith!



Don't forget to listen in live on Saturday morning at 10 AM CST. Go to
my website (www.RootsofFaith.org) and click on the Listen Live link and
you will find everything that you need to know to listen in on our
morning service. We truly want you to be a part of our Synagogue
without walls! We have limited slots, but will not pay for more until
we need them, so get there early. We usually have the live link
streaming music at around 10:00 AM CST and the service begins at 10:30
AM CST.







My prayer for you is that "Goodness and mercy" follow you! (Psalm 23).




Shalom, Ross




Click this link to unsubscribe: http://www.imsclients.com/listmail/unsubscribe.php?M=25289&N=119&L=11&C=2ecae1c1ed1a574e8fb10e17b18664be



From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Thu Nov 29 15:08:00 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:08:00 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Re:ROF bulleten
In-Reply-To: <20071129155232.DS2JI.53294.root@fepweb11>
Message-ID: <20071129160800.5UYLW.54264.root@fepweb11>


I can't wait till Shabbat morning class.  Two whole days...too many.  

Kim

P.S. (Ross, thank you for your response to my question about the Psalms.  I agree that we should research first.)
=============
Shalom to all!



This week I have been flooded with insights while preparing my lesson.
I simply can't wait until this Saturday morning's class. We are living
in exciting times. This week, while leaders from all over the world
convened in Annapolis, Maryland to discuss among other things, the
future of Jerusalem, I have been busy studying what God's word has to
say about it.



You shouldn't be surprised to find out that there is a great difference
between what various political leaders have in mind and what God sets
forth in the Bible through His prophets.



You may however be surprised to learn that the ancient Triennial cycle
reading from the Law and the Prophets to be read this Saturday, speaks
directly about this subject. 



In this week's Torah reading (Genesis 12 and 13) as well as the
Prophets reading (Joshua 24) we read very clearly that God gave the
land of Israel to Abram and his seed, specifically through Isaac and
Jacob.



In my estimation, the return of the Jewish people to the land promised
to the patriarchs in our day, is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.
This return of Israel to the "promised land" is perhaps the most
prominent theme in the Hebrew Prophets, mentioned in over 40 major
sections of the texts. As I have pointed out before, God's restoration
of Israel to the promised land is the one thing that He will do with
"all His heart and all His soul" - Jeremiah 32:41.



One should take note that God calls this small and highly contested
land - "my land" in Joel 3:2.  Jews, Christians and Moslems all lay
claim to it in all or in part, but this week's class will make clear
that the "title / deed" was promised by God to a single family -
Israel!



It is commonly referred to today as the "Holy Land". (See Zechariah
2:13 for the one time in the Bible where this name is used to refer to
"the Land" of Israel). 



In my studies this week I found one passage to be most incredible.
Popular translations don't do justice to this passage and so I have
translated it myself in order to render it more closely to the original
Hebrew. It may seem awkward in English, but this literal rendering is
much better I think. In Deuteronomy 11:12 we find that this land is;



"a land which the LORD your God searches her continually: the eyes of
the LORD are on her, from the beginning of the year and until the end
of the year." 



Think about that! Can you imagine God searching this land continually
throughout the year with His eyes? The image I get is of a guard
looking up and down this strip of land from a strategic viewpoint!



Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme
importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I
only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders,
participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic
heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or
synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would
especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel had to
say about the subject that they now consider.



In the third chapter of Joel we read:



KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall
bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather
all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat,
and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage
Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my
land.



The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It
means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all nations is
brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY
land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on "in the
news". 



There will be a handout of maps for this Saturday's class. I will have
copies for those that attend, and will have a link to a pdf of the
document on the main page of my website by Saturday morning so that
those listening in can see this land as viewed from heaven. I would
also encourage you to look at the maps in your Bible this week. Most
good study Bibles have maps. The best maps, in my opinion, are those
published by Oxford.



You will not want to miss this week's class - The Holy Land - God's
gift to Israel



The Gates with Joseph Good



For those that are interested, the 2nd of 4 classes on the "Return of
Israel" in which I appear with Joe Good, has been published on the
Universal Torah Network's website. A link to the shows appears on my
website. In these classes, Joe and I discuss this topic extensively.



A New Look for the Website



I encourage you to check out the website if you have not done so in a
while. It has a brand new look! It is also gaining popularity.
Yesterday we broke a record for highest number of visits in one day (at
761).  We are averaging well over 500 visits per day from all over the
world. I am excited about all that is going on and am pleased that so
many are finding our teachings and music to be inspirational to them as
they seek the Roots of their Faith!



Don't forget to listen in live on Saturday morning at 10 AM CST. Go to
my website (www.RootsofFaith.org) and click on the Listen Live link and
you will find everything that you need to know to listen in on our
morning service. We truly want you to be a part of our Synagogue
without walls! We have limited slots, but will not pay for more until
we need them, so get there early. We usually have the live link
streaming music at around 10:00 AM CST and the service begins at 10:30
AM CST.







My prayer for you is that "Goodness and mercy" follow you! (Psalm 23).




Shalom, Ross




Click this link to unsubscribe: http://www.imsclients.com/listmail/unsubscribe.php?M=25289&N=119&L=11&C=2ecae1c1ed1a574e8fb10e17b18664be

_______________________________________________



From ronniefulcher at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 29 16:55:41 2007
From: ronniefulcher at yahoo.com (Ronnie Fulcher)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:55:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <001201c8321e$18373ca0$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <147932.59545.qm@web55408.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

There is a grave at Safat that many contribute to
Yeshua. I belive that the same town is the root of
Kabbalah.

Ronnie
--- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 
> 
>  
> 
> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a
> lot of "hanging going on!"
> For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a
> love and appreciation
> for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed
> to the G-d of Abraham,
> Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more
> often associated with
> Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should
> not negate the fact that
> he was an observant Jew.
> 
>  
> 
> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow
> under the impression that
> according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in
> Israel (I have forgotten
> the location) where there is a gravesite attributed
> to Yeshua and that his
> grave, among others, is one that has been visited
> and venerated by pious
> rabbis down thru the ages???  I really don't think I
> dreamed this. I thought
> you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we
> might need to check with my
> brother. 
> 
>  
> 
> Love & Blessings,
> 
>  
> 
> Betty/Elisheva 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf
> Of youngbarzel at aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
>  
> 
> Hey Dick - 
> 
>    How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it
> really makes me happy to be
> here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an
> interesting one.
> Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority
> on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
> I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role
> model if someone is
> looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
> 
>    Having said that, if referring to the G-d of
> Yeshua is done in the same
> context as the G-d of any other Jew of history
> (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
> King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
>  
> 
>    Ross makes it very clear on the website that
> Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
> Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize
> that some Rabbi in
> Israel is going to hang me one day for having
> written that, right?   LOL
> Only kidding......   :-)  
>  
>    Best regards Dick!
>        Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
>                      Hanoch
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
> 
>       Just a question I have had in my mind for some
> time.  Do you think it
> would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers
> to use in there prayers,
> "God of YeShua".
> 
>    Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of
> Israel"  " not as God".
> 
> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
>  
> 
> Shalom to all, 
> 
>      With events that will effect our beloved Eretz
> Yisrael unfolding as I
> write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need
> to be part of a
> "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -
> all it needs to be is
> you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across
> as disjointed, I
> apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not
> from 'my head'  It
> seems I've been doing that a lot lately,
> sighhhh......
> 
>       In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if
> I was "..ready to
> pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the
> Yom Kippur liturgy.  As
> we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually
> chronicling our
> shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en
> melitz yosher..." which
> is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer
> book) as, "..we have no
> advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that
> will speak to HaShem on
> our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else
> for us to count on....
> EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father,
> Our King.  
> 
>      The central prayer in the three daily prayer
> services in Judaism is the
> 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -
> the 18 Blessings (or
> benedictions).  The first two sentences are the
> following (transliterated
> Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu.
> Elohei Avraham, Elohei
> Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is
> simple, the meaning behind
> it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d
> of our Fathers. G-d of
> Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
> 
>  
> 
>      The obvious question is - why the redundancy? 
> After all, the G-d of
> Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob)
> is the SAME G-d....why
> does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what
> I learned, many, many
> years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
> 
>     HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each
> of our Avot (fathers, or
> forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they
> each had their own,
> distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the
> SAME G-d (obviously..), but
> Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship
> with him then did Avraham,
> or each other, for that matter.  
> 
>      So it's up to you and me, to form our own
> relationship(s) with HaShem,
> to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on
> behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
> We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or
> spokesperson that will step up
> for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can. 
> Who knows which of us may
> be the one that can cause the effect to save us from
> the evil decrees??
> 
>     We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail
> now, when so much is at
> stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday
> night), as I've blessed my
> daughters, I have added the following to the
> traditional brachot
> (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our
> Torah, 
=== message truncated ===>
_______________________________________________
> 



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From dennyj at mac.com  Thu Nov 29 17:12:05 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:12:05 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <147932.59545.qm@web55408.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <147932.59545.qm@web55408.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02AEA77D-0116-1000-D49C-D59B44871803-Webmail-10023@mac.com>

Hello all,

It has been awhile since I have interjected any comments. We have been busy with family things as you know. This sabbath will be difficult to listen again as we will have 8 grandchildren in our care until parents get home. ;-)

I have been reading the discussions and don't feel as I have much to contribute at this time. I have more questions that anything else.
James' book THE JESUS DYNASTY has me occupied at the moment. 

A couple questions come to mind that I would like to put out for your thoughts and response.

At this time in my journey, I have lost a lot of confidence in Christianity. I feel, as Ross has described, like I have been lied to.
Now I am wondering about the trustworthiness of our New Testament Canon. Can these scriptures be trusted? I read in the dialogues about Jesus having a grave possibly. That Yeshua came to show us how to LIVE Torah. Other than that, I really haven't heard much about Yeshua and the sacrifice of his life. The apostolic writings and Shaul in particular says that if Yeshua didn't raise from the dead then our faith is in vain. What do you all think of these things? Is the New Testament  (as we call it) accurate and reliable?

Shalom,
Denny




Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play.

 
On Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 04:56PM, "Ronnie Fulcher" <ronniefulcher at yahoo.com> wrote:
>There is a grave at Safat that many contribute to
>Yeshua. I belive that the same town is the root of
>Kabbalah.
>
>Ronnie
>--- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a
>> lot of "hanging going on!"
>> For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a
>> love and appreciation
>> for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed
>> to the G-d of Abraham,
>> Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more
>> often associated with
>> Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should
>> not negate the fact that
>> he was an observant Jew.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow
>> under the impression that
>> according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in
>> Israel (I have forgotten
>> the location) where there is a gravesite attributed
>> to Yeshua and that his
>> grave, among others, is one that has been visited
>> and venerated by pious
>> rabbis down thru the ages???  I really don't think I
>> dreamed this. I thought
>> you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we
>> might need to check with my
>> brother. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Love & Blessings,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Betty/Elisheva 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>   _____  
>> 
>> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
>> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf
>> Of youngbarzel at aol.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hey Dick - 
>> 
>>    How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it
>> really makes me happy to be
>> here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an
>> interesting one.
>> Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority
>> on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
>> I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role
>> model if someone is
>> looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
>> 
>>    Having said that, if referring to the G-d of
>> Yeshua is done in the same
>> context as the G-d of any other Jew of history
>> (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
>> King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
>>  
>> 
>>    Ross makes it very clear on the website that
>> Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
>> Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize
>> that some Rabbi in
>> Israel is going to hang me one day for having
>> written that, right?   LOL
>> Only kidding......   :-)  
>>  
>>    Best regards Dick!
>>        Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
>>                      Hanoch
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>> 
>> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
>> 
>>       Just a question I have had in my mind for some
>> time.  Do you think it
>> would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers
>> to use in there prayers,
>> "God of YeShua".
>> 
>>    Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of
>> Israel"  " not as God".
>> 
>> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Shalom to all, 
>> 
>>      With events that will effect our beloved Eretz
>> Yisrael unfolding as I
>> write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need
>> to be part of a
>> "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -
>> all it needs to be is
>> you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across
>> as disjointed, I
>> apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not
>> from 'my head'  It
>> seems I've been doing that a lot lately,
>> sighhhh......
>> 
>>       In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if
>> I was "..ready to
>> pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the
>> Yom Kippur liturgy.  As
>> we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually
>> chronicling our
>> shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en
>> melitz yosher..." which
>> is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer
>> book) as, "..we have no
>> advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that
>> will speak to HaShem on
>> our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else
>> for us to count on....
>> EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father,
>> Our King.  
>> 
>>      The central prayer in the three daily prayer
>> services in Judaism is the
>> 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -
>> the 18 Blessings (or
>> benedictions).  The first two sentences are the
>> following (transliterated
>> Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu.
>> Elohei Avraham, Elohei
>> Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is
>> simple, the meaning behind
>> it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d
>> of our Fathers. G-d of
>> Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>      The obvious question is - why the redundancy? 
>> After all, the G-d of
>> Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob)
>> is the SAME G-d....why
>> does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what
>> I learned, many, many
>> years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
>> 
>>     HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each
>> of our Avot (fathers, or
>> forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they
>> each had their own,
>> distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the
>> SAME G-d (obviously..), but
>> Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship
>> with him then did Avraham,
>> or each other, for that matter.  
>> 
>>      So it's up to you and me, to form our own
>> relationship(s) with HaShem,
>> to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on
>> behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
>> We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or
>> spokesperson that will step up
>> for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can. 
>> Who knows which of us may
>> be the one that can cause the effect to save us from
>> the evil decrees??
>> 
>>     We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail
>> now, when so much is at
>> stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday
>> night), as I've blessed my
>> daughters, I have added the following to the
>> traditional brachot
>> (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our
>> Torah, 
>=== message truncated ===>
>_______________________________________________
>> 
>
>
>
>      ____________________________________________________________________________________
>Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>_______________________________________________
>
>


From dennyj at mac.com  Thu Nov 29 17:17:07 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:17:07 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
In-Reply-To: <8CA00DCDB1CD797-DD8-DC3@FWM-D42.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CA00DCDB1CD797-DD8-DC3@FWM-D42.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <02AEA77D-0116-1000-D4B2-D59B44871803-Webmail-10023@mac.com>

Hi Hanoch,

I have been enjoying your stories. You are an excellent writer. Have you thought about writing an autobiography? It would make for some very interesting reading.

Shalom,
Denny


Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play.

 
On Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 02:24PM, <youngbarzel at aol.com> wrote:
>You guys crack me up!!  Let me get through THIS version first, and I'll keep throwing little stories your way if you'd like, okay?!  :-)  Remind me to tell you about practicing reading Hebrew in a Catholic Church (my classroom at the local Public School had just burned down).  And I've got hundreds more.....just living in NYC is an experience!  But what I've gone through really, really has a lot to do with whatever it is that I might be able to offer this 'synagogue without walls.'  And like I've already said, it's the friendliest shul (synagogue) I've ever been in!!!!!!!
>
>   Hanoch
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: kim.alvarado at charter.net
>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 2:50 pm
>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
>
>
>
>Ditto, I want every detail.  Maybe you should consider putting it in a book one 
>ay.
>Kim
>--- Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com> wrote: 
>=============
>        Make it as long as you can Hanoch. Love it !  Dick L.
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
>
> Thanks Tammy, I appreciate the kind words.  Believe it or not, this is 
>ctually ALL going to make sense (okay, only somewhat, perhaps...), to explain 
>ho I am, how I got to be in the midst of THIS group, and why when I say things, 
>ou can't always take it as "the standard Jewish view of things."  I am actually 
>eaving out a number of things that make for interesting anecdotes, but maybe 
>ome other time.
>  After all, Ross asked for a SHORT introduction, not a new War & Peace !!
>  Shalom for now,
>          Hanoch
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tammy & Bruce Croley <tsbcroley at yahoo.com>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 8:50 am
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
>
> Good Morning Hanoch,
>     Reading about your life is so interesting.   It is almost like reading a 
>ovel.......makes my life seem so simple and sheltered.  HaShem has a plan for 
>ll of us and so I shouldn't seem as though I am complaining about my life. I 
>ruly thank Him for all that I have or have not experienced.  Looking forward to 
>he next installment!
> Shalom,
> Tammy 
>  YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: 
>   Okay, where were we...so, I'm a kid growing up with the average American 
>ewish background - little education, memorized how to chant my Haftara (the 
>ortion of the prophets that's read in synagogues after the Torah reading every 
>habbat) at my Bar Mitzva.  We went to shul (the Yiddish term for synagogue) on 
>he "High Holidays" (Rosh HaShana & Yom Kippur), ate matza on Passover, but 
>idn't keep Kosher or celebrate ('observe,' as some would say) Shabbat.
>    BTW (by the way) - if I use any terms you're not familiar with, please write 
>o me, and I will gladly explain them; please feel free, I mean it.  
>    I had few friends growing up, and got into more then a few fights with those 
>ho viewed me as the local "Christ killer (by my being Jewish, of course..)."  
>y parents, Of Blessed Memory provided a loving home, and were thrilled that I 
>as able to get the scholarship to go to Israel after H.S. otherwise, we could 
>ever have afforded it.  We lived a kind of 'upper lower class' existence - had 
>ood on the table, but we didn't have a car, we didn't go on vacation, and I was 
>ever able to go away to camp.  Please understand, the reason I'm telling you 
>ll of this is to set the scene for how I felt out of place, and didn't just 
>lip into being an average American, instead of a committed, serious Jew.
>    My father was a gentle man, who never, ever raised a hand to me.  He had a 
>ery tough life (which I didn't find out until years after his death, when his 
>lder brother told me stories), growing up in the depression.  He and his 
>rothers used to go around the neighborhood to collect cardboard, so they could 
>patch up' the holes in their house, where the wind whipped in.  Dad was in 
>etail men's clothing, and worked six days/week, three nights, and never had 
>ore then two weeks vacation in his whole life.  He died of lung cancer at the 
>ge of 64, in 1984 (In the '50's my family moved to Savannah, Georgia to manage 
> clothing store - but no one would buy from a "New York Jew," and the business 
>enture failed.  However, if I had been born less then a year earlier, I would 
>ave been a 'Southern Boy!"  What a mix of accents THAT would have been).
>    But I'm straying from my story - I remember my dad's favorite thing to do, 
>as to sit in the livingroom, in the dark, listening to cantorial (Jewish 
>iturgical) records.  The mournful (it SOUNDED mournful to me..) sounds were 
>eeply emotional (although I was unfamiliar with the prayers being chanted), and 
>y father would sit there with tears running down his cheeks.....I didn't 
>ealize it at the time, but that was my first experience with what I came to 
>ealize was an aspect of Jewish spirituality.  Years later, I too would listen 
>o those same records (then taped, as the technology advanced), and at that 
>oint I knew what the cantor was chanting, and I too sat and cried...still do, 
>f the truth be told. It was then that I learned the power of music and song 
>hat could touch your very soul (even MORE then Black Sabbath's "Paranoid" which 
> loved to listen to fall asleep! Man, I was weird...)
>    But it was my trip to Israel which exposed me to many Jewish 'rituals' that 
>ventually became part of my daily life.  It was in Israel, standing at the top 
>f Masada, where my co-religionists killed themselves rather then be Roman 
>laves that I saw an ancient pair of tefilin ('phylacteries').  I had seen them, 
>nd put them on before my Bar Mitzva, but I didn't even own a pair, myself (I 
>ecall my folks offering to buy them for me, and my telling them not to waste 
>heir money, I would never use them..).  I actually recall thinking, if King 
>avid could put those things on, then maybe I should, too!  I saw a mikva (a 
>itual bath) on Masada as well, reminding me of how little I really knew about 
>raditional Judaism.
>        So, let's review what was going on with little, soon to be 17 year old 
>anoch (then still known as "Howie").  I felt fiercely proud of being Jewish, 
>nd my heritage, although knowing little of it, I was not accepted by the 
>eighborhood kids, and didn't have the normal/typical "boy/girl" interactions 
>you guys don't need ALL the specifics, do you?! LOL), I spent 7 amazing weeks 
>n Israel, touring all over the Land.  An Israel that (in the summer of 1973) 
>as cocky and self assured, having won the miraculous 6 Day War, only 7 years 
>efore.  
>    What would have happened to me then, had the Yom Kippur War not broken out, 
> don't really know.  I signed up for Hebrew classes (I could read, from having 
>een in Hebrew School) and American Jewish History, but it was at the local 
>ranch of the City University of New York (5 blocks from my house!).  So, I 
>idn't have a campus life (read: 'social life').  Relatively 'alone,' starting 
>ollege, becoming Jewishly aware, enormous rage at the Irish kids I had to fight 
>AND their sisters, for those 'other' reasons), having just been in Israel, and 
> weeks later - Israel's at war....and losing...badly. Could the Holocaust be 
>appening again?
>    I went to demonstrations and rallies, but it was the winter of 1974 (just 2 
>onths after the war) that I joined Betar, which was a bit more 'ideological' 
>hen the Jewish Defense League (which I also began to be involved with a year 
>ater...).  We read books about the heroes of the Jewish underground movements 
>hat fought against the British occupation of the Land of Israel, and that 
>revented Europe's Jews from reaching a safe haven in what was then called, 
>Mandatory Palestine."
>    We learned to shoot weapons, and took martial arts classes - all to be 
>repared to help Jews.  Those a bit older then I, went on Aliyah (literally 
>Going Up") - moving to Israel, and joined the Army.  Oops..running out of time, 
>ot home from work less then 8 hours ago, but it's time to go back already!   
>-(
>    In November 1974, Arafat (May his name be erased!) came to the U.N. for the 
>irst time, pistol in his holster at the General Assembly.  Yes, there were 
>emonstrations against this arch-terrorist, but it was the chanting, peaceful 
>ind....even with NYPD snipers staked out on the roof of the New York Hilton 
>otel.  But a group of 30 of us from Betar made it TO the U.N. gates and 
>andcuffed ourselves to the gates, splattering animal blood over the sidewalk, 
>nd burning an effigy of Arafat.  The police went nuts!!!!  The news guys LOVED 
>t, we were in Army fatigues, and clearly weren't taking any 'poop' (not sure 
>ow colorful Ross wants my language to get...) from anyone.
>        This was my first arrest, at age 18, but it was done to help save the 
>ewish people (which is important to note was my mindset at the time.  Not to 
>pend time with the young women I was meeting, but to do ACTION, to help Israel, 
>ave Jews and avenge the Holocaust).  It was almost like the old Superman TV 
>how - for ..."Truth, Justice, and the American way..."
>    We got tons of press, including a shot of my blood stained hands (animal 
>lood folks, remember?) handcuffed to the U.N. gates in the New York Daily News 
> still have the copy.  I also got a copy (someone got it - don't know how) of 
>n Associated Press photo of me (and another guy who later went to prison for 
>ombing Russian facilities....) being lead away in handcuffs.  It's a GREAT 
>hot, and maybe one day when I learn to scan, I can forward it to you guys for 
>our amusement.  It was VERY cool......at that time everyone hated Arafat, and I 
>emember being the 'hero' of the few Jews in the neighborhood, and my mom's 
>riends (although when I called my mom from the police station, she DID ask me 
>f I had enough food to eat with me....once a Jewish mother, always a Jewish 
>other).  But people congratulated me, and my friends older sister (an 'older 
>oman' of 23, kissed me on the cheek for having been arrested for this cause.  I 
>idn't wash  that cheek for weeks...)
>    Okay, got to make this fast....In the Fall/Winter of 1974/1975 the 
>isengagement agreement that Henry Kissinger had arranged between Israel and 
>yria was set to expire, and it was clear that Israel would have to go to war, 
>et again.  During the War, American planes with desperately needed weapons and 
>mmunition ('cause the Soviets were supplying the Egyptians and the Syrians) 
>eached Israel, after refueling on the Azores Islands, a Portuguese possession. 
>ortugal announced that in the 'event of hostilities inthe Middle East' they 
>ould not allow U.S. planes to land - which would have made Israel's resupply 
>mpossible.  
>        So, we knew we had to strike out against Portugal immediately.  We would 
>each them a lesson!!  But how do you attack Portugal in NYC??  We found out 
>here was an office (street level storefront type) of TAP, which actually stood 
>or: "The Airline of Portugal."   A group of us drove into the city, and TAP was 
>ocated on 5th Avenue, and 40something street (you guys MUST know what 5th 
>venue is like in the evening, right?!?!?).  Two of us got out of the car, both 
>n Army fatigue jackets (Vietnam surplus was still considered 'cool'), both with 
>ire irons.  Gershon (who was still, 'George Green' at the time, and is today a 
>op chemical engineer at Israel's huge refinery in Haifa) was to smash their 
>indows, I was to pound my tire iron in my hand, and look menacing, so no one 
>ould interfere.  We would make these Portuguese pay for threatening Israel!
>    He ran up to it, reared back, swung the tire iron...and the window didn't 
>reak!!  Damn!!!!!!!   He gathered all his strength to pound it again, and swung 
> there was a noise, but no glass breaking!!!!!!!  I guess the third time is a 
>harm, because he then smashed two 'foot sized' holes in the glass, and then we 
>an like hell, to our waiting get away car.  We yellled at Dave to go, step on 
>t...the care lurched forward and we were immediately smashed into by the NYPD, 
>ith their guns pointed out our heads...the good news is that they were the old 
>8 caliber ones, not the more intimidating 9mm Glock automatics they now carry.   
>e were busted.....it seems there had been a high speed car cahse nearby, and 
>his Police car was returning to its precinct, across town, right at that 
>oment; just our luck....and it turns out, we caused $15,000 worth of damage...
>    They acted as if they had just caught the assassins of President Kennedy 
>and there WAS more then one).  But time is really late, so let me give you the 
>Readers Digest' version.  We were stuck in these large,smelly, filthy 'holding 
>ells' which housed 30 or so 'inmates.'  The flotsam and jetsam of NY 
>ociety...the lowlife creeps you'd cross the street to get away from.  They were 
>ow our intimate neighbors.  After standing in the middle of the cell, we 
>inally were too exhausted and we sat down on the filthy, grimy floor (think of 
>he shipboard jail in "Pirates of the Carribean").
>    Now, I'm going to use the actual language spoken to me - please do not think 
>f me as racist, it's just to accurately portray what was said.  A quick 
>lossary of terms though:
>   Shabbos - the Yiddish way of pronouncing Shabbat
>    Kiddish - Kiddush the sanctification of wine on Shabbat and holidays, but 
>lso referred to the giving of wine, cake and some food at some shuls 
>synagogues) on Shabbat.
>    An extremely well dressed Black man saunters over to us, wearing a light 
>rown three piece suit, wearing a bowler (sp?) hat!!   We're sitting on the 
>loor, miserable, tired, hungry, and upset we got arrested, when we thought we 
>ould get away clear.  What's the point of being arrested if there's no press 
>overage??
>    He said, "Shalom, Hebrew brothers!!"  We smiled and said 'hi'.  He then 
>sked, "whatcha in for?  Was ya pimpin? (yeah right, these yarmulke wearing, 
>uys with soiled army fatigue jackets were pimping!!)"  He then wanted to know 
>f we dealt drugs, and a whole variety of things.  But he kept asking, 
>...really now - was ya pimpin'??
>    He came back a few minutes later...and then told us: "Isz (read: 'I') go to 
>hul, every Shabbos!"  We freaked out, asking him if he was Jewish, were did he 
>ive, and a million rapid fire questions....He quickly said, "No, no, isz only 
>o for Kiddish..."  Only in New York, right?
>    Later that night, someone came in with a copy of the newspaper, which he 
>ead.  He quickly realized that we were the "Jewish militants arrested last 
>ight," and came over and said in a shocked, accusatory tone,"Youz broke 
>indows!!!!!!!!"   It would have been fine to have been a pimp (although my mom 
>ould have been disappointed in me..LOL), or to have dealt drugs - but NOT to 
>reak windows!!!!!!!   Too weird.
>    Okay got to go:  Part III will be my demonstration in Russia, JDL Leadership 
>chool in Israel with Rav Kahane and friends going to prison.  But most 
>mportantly - when did I actully begin truly studying Torah.  All of this links 
>e where I am today....
>    Sorry it's SO long,
>           Hanoch
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money 
>asters of 2007.
>   _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my 
>very movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good 
>nd I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant 
>pon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His 
>ill."  
>                                                           Rabbi Nachman's 
>isdom 2
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From info at poweredbyhadavar.com  Thu Nov 29 17:50:24 2007
From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:50:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <962112.73731.qm@web1013.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Yes Ronnie you are right about the town of Safat having a root in Kabbalah.  This is a very beautiful place but I know nothing of the grave.

Rick



----- Original Message ----
From: Ronnie Fulcher <ronniefulcher at yahoo.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:55:41 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

There is a grave at Safat that many contribute to
Yeshua. I belive that the same town is the root of
Kabbalah.

Ronnie
--- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 
> 
>  
> 
> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a
> lot of "hanging going on!"
> For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a
> love and appreciation
> for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed
> to the G-d of Abraham,
> Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more
> often associated with
> Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should
> not negate the fact that
> he was an observant Jew.
> 
>  
> 
> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow
> under the impression that
> according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in
> Israel (I have forgotten
> the location) where there is a gravesite attributed
> to Yeshua and that his
> grave, among others, is one that has been visited
> and venerated by pious
> rabbis down thru the ages???  I really don't think I
> dreamed this. I thought
> you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we
> might need to check with my
> brother. 
> 
>  
> 
> Love & Blessings,
> 
>  
> 
> Betty/Elisheva 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf
> Of youngbarzel at aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
>  
> 
> Hey Dick - 
> 
>    How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it
> really makes me happy to be
> here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an
> interesting one.
> Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority
> on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
> I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role
> model if someone is
> looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
> 
>    Having said that, if referring to the G-d of
> Yeshua is done in the same
> context as the G-d of any other Jew of history
> (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
> King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
>  
> 
>    Ross makes it very clear on the website that
> Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
> Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize
> that some Rabbi in
> Israel is going to hang me one day for having
> written that, right?   LOL
> Only kidding......   :-)  
>  
>    Best regards Dick!
>        Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
>                      Hanoch
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
> 
>       Just a question I have had in my mind for some
> time.  Do you think it
> would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers
> to use in there prayers,
> "God of YeShua".
> 
>    Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of
> Israel"  " not as God".
> 
> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
>  
> 
> Shalom to all, 
> 
>      With events that will effect our beloved Eretz
> Yisrael unfolding as I
> write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need
> to be part of a
> "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -
> all it needs to be is
> you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across
> as disjointed, I
> apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not
> from 'my head'  It
> seems I've been doing that a lot lately,
> sighhhh......
> 
>       In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if
> I was "..ready to
> pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the
> Yom Kippur liturgy.  As
> we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually
> chronicling our
> shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en
> melitz yosher..." which
> is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer
> book) as, "..we have no
> advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that
> will speak to HaShem on
> our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else
> for us to count on....
> EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father,
> Our King.  
> 
>      The central prayer in the three daily prayer
> services in Judaism is the
> 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -
> the 18 Blessings (or
> benedictions).  The first two sentences are the
> following (transliterated
> Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu.
> Elohei Avraham, Elohei
> Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is
> simple, the meaning behind
> it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d
> of our Fathers. G-d of
> Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
> 
>  
> 
>      The obvious question is - why the redundancy? 
> After all, the G-d of
> Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob)
> is the SAME G-d....why
> does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what
> I learned, many, many
> years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
> 
>     HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each
> of our Avot (fathers, or
> forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they
> each had their own,
> distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the
> SAME G-d (obviously..), but
> Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship
> with him then did Avraham,
> or each other, for that matter.  
> 
>      So it's up to you and me, to form our own
> relationship(s) with HaShem,
> to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on
> behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
> We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or
> spokesperson that will step up
> for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can. 
> Who knows which of us may
> be the one that can cause the effect to save us from
> the evil decrees??
> 
>     We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail
> now, when so much is at
> stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday
> night), as I've blessed my
> daughters, I have added the following to the
> traditional brachot
> (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our
> Torah, 
=== message truncated ===>
_______________________________________________
> 



    
  ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
_______________________________________________





From ronniefulcher at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 29 18:29:50 2007
From: ronniefulcher at yahoo.com (Ronnie Fulcher)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:29:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <962112.73731.qm@web1013.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <926.79641.qm@web55414.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Dr Tabor  & J. David have been to the grave in question

Rick Gozhanskij <info at poweredbyhadavar.com> wrote:  Yes Ronnie you are right about the town of Safat having a root in Kabbalah. This is a very beautiful place but I know nothing of the grave.

Rick



----- Original Message ----
From: Ronnie Fulcher 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:55:41 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

There is a grave at Safat that many contribute to
Yeshua. I belive that the same town is the root of
Kabbalah.

Ronnie
--- Betty Givin wrote:

> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 
> 
> 
> 
> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a
> lot of "hanging going on!"
> For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a
> love and appreciation
> for Torah. And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed
> to the G-d of Abraham,
> Isaac and Jacob, as do we. Just because he is more
> often associated with
> Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should
> not negate the fact that
> he was an observant Jew.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow
> under the impression that
> according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in
> Israel (I have forgotten
> the location) where there is a gravesite attributed
> to Yeshua and that his
> grave, among others, is one that has been visited
> and venerated by pious
> rabbis down thru the ages??? I really don't think I
> dreamed this. I thought
> you might have heard of this Hanoch. If not, we
> might need to check with my
> brother. 
> 
> 
> 
> Love & Blessings,
> 
> 
> 
> Betty/Elisheva 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _____ 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf
> Of youngbarzel at aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Dick - 
> 
> How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it
> really makes me happy to be
> here! Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an
> interesting one.
> Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority
> on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
> I'm barely an amateur! And I'm certainly not a role
> model if someone is
> looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
> 
> Having said that, if referring to the G-d of
> Yeshua is done in the same
> context as the G-d of any other Jew of history
> (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
> King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
> 
> 
> Ross makes it very clear on the website that
> Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
> Abraham; the same G-d we pray to. You DO realize
> that some Rabbi in
> Israel is going to hang me one day for having
> written that, right? LOL
> Only kidding...... :-) 
> 
> Best regards Dick!
> Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
> Hanoch
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dick L 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
> 
> Just a question I have had in my mind for some
> time. Do you think it
> would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers
> to use in there prayers,
> "God of YeShua".
> 
> Same God I believe. He prayed "to the God of
> Israel" " not as God".
> 
> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
> 
> 
> Shalom to all, 
> 
> With events that will effect our beloved Eretz
> Yisrael unfolding as I
> write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need
> to be part of a
> "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -
> all it needs to be is
> you, and HaShem, our Creator. If this comes across
> as disjointed, I
> apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not
> from 'my head' It
> seems I've been doing that a lot lately,
> sighhhh......
> 
> In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if
> I was "..ready to
> pray.." and it left me thinking about part of the
> Yom Kippur liturgy. As
> we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually
> chronicling our
> shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en
> melitz yosher..." which
> is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer
> book) as, "..we have no
> advocate.." In other words, there is no one that
> will speak to HaShem on
> our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else
> for us to count on....
> EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father,
> Our King. 
> 
> The central prayer in the three daily prayer
> services in Judaism is the
> 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -
> the 18 Blessings (or
> benedictions). The first two sentences are the
> following (transliterated
> Hebrew, then English): "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu.
> Elohei Avraham, Elohei
> Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov." The translation is
> simple, the meaning behind
> it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d
> of our Fathers. G-d of
> Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
> 
> 
> 
> The obvious question is - why the redundancy? 
> After all, the G-d of
> Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob)
> is the SAME G-d....why
> does it describe it in THAT manner? And here's what
> I learned, many, many
> years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
> 
> HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each
> of our Avot (fathers, or
> forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they
> each had their own,
> distinct relationship with HIM. Yes, it was the
> SAME G-d (obviously..), but
> Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship
> with him then did Avraham,
> or each other, for that matter. 
> 
> So it's up to you and me, to form our own
> relationship(s) with HaShem,
> to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on
> behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
> We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or
> spokesperson that will step up
> for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can. 
> Who knows which of us may
> be the one that can cause the effect to save us from
> the evil decrees??
> 
> We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail
> now, when so much is at
> stake. You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday
> night), as I've blessed my
> daughters, I have added the following to the
> traditional brachot
> (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our
> Torah, 
=== message truncated ===>
_______________________________________________
> 




____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________


       
---------------------------------
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From info at poweredbyhadavar.com  Thu Nov 29 18:33:41 2007
From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:33:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <492534.60152.qm@web1010.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Interesting Ronnie,  I wish I had seen that when I was there and thanks for sharing that information.

Rick

----- Original Message ----
From: Ronnie Fulcher <ronniefulcher at yahoo.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:29:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

Dr Tabor  & J. David have been to the grave in question

Rick Gozhanskij <info at poweredbyhadavar.com> wrote:  Yes Ronnie you are right about the town of Safat having a root in Kabbalah. This is a very beautiful place but I know nothing of the grave.

Rick



----- Original Message ----
From: Ronnie Fulcher 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:55:41 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

There is a grave at Safat that many contribute to
Yeshua. I belive that the same town is the root of
Kabbalah.

Ronnie
--- Betty Givin wrote:

> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 
> 
> 
> 
> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a
> lot of "hanging going
 on!"
> For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a
> love and appreciation
> for Torah. And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed
> to the G-d of Abraham,
> Isaac and Jacob, as do we. Just because he is more
> often associated with
> Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should
> not negate the fact that
> he was an observant Jew.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow
> under the impression that
> according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in
> Israel (I have forgotten
> the location) where there is a gravesite attributed
> to Yeshua and that his
> grave, among others, is one that has been visited
> and venerated by pious
> rabbis down thru the ages??? I really don't think I
> dreamed this. I thought
> you might have heard of this Hanoch. If not, we
> might need to check with my
>
 brother. 
> 
> 
> 
> Love & Blessings,
> 
> 
> 
> Betty/Elisheva 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _____ 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf
> Of youngbarzel at aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Dick - 
> 
> How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it
> really makes me happy to be
> here! Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an
> interesting one.
> Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority
> on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
> I'm barely an amateur! And I'm certainly not a role
> model if someone is
>
 looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
> 
> Having said that, if referring to the G-d of
> Yeshua is done in the same
> context as the G-d of any other Jew of history
> (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
> King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
> 
> 
> Ross makes it very clear on the website that
> Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
> Abraham; the same G-d we pray to. You DO realize
> that some Rabbi in
> Israel is going to hang me one day for having
> written that, right? LOL
> Only kidding...... :-) 
> 
> Best regards Dick!
> Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
> Hanoch
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dick L 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
> Nice to hear from
 you again Hanoch!
> 
> Just a question I have had in my mind for some
> time. Do you think it
> would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers
> to use in there prayers,
> "God of YeShua".
> 
> Same God I believe. He prayed "to the God of
> Israel" " not as God".
> 
> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
> 
> 
> Shalom to all, 
> 
> With events that will effect our beloved Eretz
> Yisrael unfolding as I
> write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need
> to be part of a
> "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -
> all it needs to be is
> you, and HaShem, our Creator. If this comes across
> as disjointed, I
> apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not
> from 'my head' It
> seems I've been doing that a lot lately,
>
 sighhhh......
> 
> In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if
> I was "..ready to
> pray.." and it left me thinking about part of the
> Yom Kippur liturgy. As
> we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually
> chronicling our
> shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en
> melitz yosher..." which
> is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer
> book) as, "..we have no
> advocate.." In other words, there is no one that
> will speak to HaShem on
> our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else
> for us to count on....
> EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father,
> Our King. 
> 
> The central prayer in the three daily prayer
> services in Judaism is the
> 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -
> the 18 Blessings (or
> benedictions). The first two sentences are the
> following
 (transliterated
> Hebrew, then English): "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu.
> Elohei Avraham, Elohei
> Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov." The translation is
> simple, the meaning behind
> it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d
> of our Fathers. G-d of
> Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
> 
> 
> 
> The obvious question is - why the redundancy? 
> After all, the G-d of
> Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob)
> is the SAME G-d....why
> does it describe it in THAT manner? And here's what
> I learned, many, many
> years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
> 
> HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each
> of our Avot (fathers, or
> forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they
> each had their own,
> distinct relationship with HIM. Yes, it was the
> SAME G-d (obviously..), but
> Yitzchak and
 Yaakov had a different relationship
> with him then did Avraham,
> or each other, for that matter. 
> 
> So it's up to you and me, to form our own
> relationship(s) with HaShem,
> to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on
> behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
> We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or
> spokesperson that will step up
> for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can. 
> Who knows which of us may
> be the one that can cause the effect to save us from
> the evil decrees??
> 
> We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail
> now, when so much is at
> stake. You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday
> night), as I've blessed my
> daughters, I have added the following to the
> traditional brachot
> (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our
> Torah, 
=== message truncated
 ===>
_______________________________________________
> 




____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________

 
      
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you 
with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.

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_______________________________________________




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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 29 18:35:33 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:35:33 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <113020070035.27168.474F5AD5000A8D8800006A2022230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Denny - Glenn here. I have come to consider the NT as commentary until God tells me otherwise... the Gosples get more weight in my mind, followed by the "Hebrew" letters, then the Revelation, then Paul's writings. I look forward to discussing this further...
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 29 18:41:07 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:41:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
In-Reply-To: <8C9FE6A32493A09-7A8-2EEF@webmail-de01.sysops.aol.com>
References: <112620070541.9850.474A5C8F0007E1240000267A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<8C9FE6A32493A09-7A8-2EEF@webmail-de01.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BF930F66-63A0-4F19-A31E-54E3EE895FBF@earthlink.net>

Hey you guys, and everyone else.  I have an idea.  You can ALL meet  
one another quite soon, at the UIWU April meeting!  Details to come  
but some very exciting things.

James


On Nov 26, 2007, at 12:37 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:

> Shalom John,
>
>     Thank you so much for your note, you have no idea what a 'shot  
> in the arm' it was for me.  It's funny, although I've yet to have  
> the pleasure of meeting you, I feel like we're old pals - must be  
> that Brooklyn connection, huh?  :-)
>
>      You know, I never doubt that HaShem has a plan for me, and that  
> those things that seem difficult, or enormous obstacles now, all  
> have a role to play for the future.  However, it's getting through  
> the present - those very tough times, when everything seems to be  
> going wrong, and every decision you make, you come to quickly  
> regret, THAT's the tough part.  The toughest part, actually...
>
>      It's a true gift from HaShem to be satisfied with one's 'lot in  
> life,' to be able to be grateful for those friends and family  
> members who can bring such joy to your lives.  That's one side of  
> it...on the other side, are the 'would've, should've and could've'  
> elements that drive you crazy!  That's where my mind has been  
> hanging out lately....Every mistake I've made, every poor choice,  
> and the ramifications of all of them....
>
>      But you're right John, it's great to have such caring  
> individuals here, in this "synagogue without walls;" which is  
> actually the FRIENDLIEST synagogue I've ever been a part  
> of!!!   :-)  :-)
> HaShem will bring you, me, and all of us who need him though these  
> tough times.  HE will comfort us, Help us heal from our losses, and  
> restore calm to us all, even when there seems to be 'no way out.'
>
>    Thanks for welcoming me (back), and reaching out, you are a real  
> 'bro' - in all the deepest meanings of the term.  And it's great to  
> be back in what you've called, the 'fray.'  No matter how much any  
> of us are hurting, we have a great cause that we must continue  
> battling for.  These are truly the "end of days..." when the forces  
> of evil in the world are standing against HaShem, HIS land and HIS  
> people, how can we not rise to the occasion?!?!
>
>    May we all draw strength from HaShem, and from each  
> other....thanks for reaching out, pal - you've truly brightened what  
> has been a horrible couple of days.  I'll try to post as often as I  
> can....this may be my only sanity check!  LOL
>
>     B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel),
>             Hanoch
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41 am
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
>
> Hey Hanoch,
>
> I've been reading along for the last couple of days.  I know I don't  
> have a clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last year or  
> so other than some of your work trials.  But I can honestly say that  
> my world has been completely turned on it;s ear over the last year  
> as well.  Loss of family and friends, emotional upheavals, major  
> career changes, it's a lot to deal with.  I don't know if my  
> troubles have been anything close to yours but I can say that HaShem  
> is bringing me through it all with more hope and clarity than I  
> could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt in my mind He  
> will do the same for you.  It is good to have so many here to  
> support each other.
>
> It is also good to see you back in the fray.
>
> As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and  
> real way for us to make a difference.  Count me in.
>
> Your brother from Brooklyn,
>
> Shalom.
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
> -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com:  
> --------------
>
> Shalom to all -
>
>     The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and  
> other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are  
> standing guard over Israel's borders.  With Chanukah coming up,  
> remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.  Here in the U.S. it's potato  
> latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....
>
>     For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are  
> serving our nation.  Please check it out, and spread the word...
>             Hanoch
> Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot & Cold Soup for our  
> Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!!
>
>
>
> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top  
> money wasters of 2007.
> _______________________________________________
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
> _______________________________________________

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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu Nov 29 18:42:44 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:42:44 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
Message-ID: <d1c.19ba82c6.3480b684@aol.com>

Hey Denny - 
 
  Thanks so much, glad you're enjoying it!  No, honestly I have never thought 
of chronicling any of this stuff.  Although to be totally honest with you, I 
am enjoying writing these notes immensely, and find them very cathartic.  This 
past year has dropped me into several levels of hell, and this has provided a 
brief respite.
 
  Thanks again for writing!!
 
    Best regards,
            Hanoch
 
    But hey, if you guys think it might be worthwhile, maybe I'll try to give 
it a crack one day.



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 29 18:52:40 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:52:40 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
Message-ID: <113020070052.12580.474F5ED800087A260000312422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

May Rhonda and I attend as well?
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 29 18:53:34 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:53:34 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
Message-ID: <113020070053.14740.474F5F0E000565420000399422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Glenn votes yes - do it!
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 29 19:00:42 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:00:42 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <113020070100.2574.474F60BA0000381F00000A0E22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Denny, Glenn again... to add to my previous response... I am not saying that the NT is not Canon... for ME right NOW, I am taking a big step backward and attempting to sort out the lies from the truth. I also have that deep sense of having been betrayed.

As for the veracity of the texts - well, I'm not sure, because it is clear from even minimal research that changes have been made. Add to that the nefarious dealings of those who killed Jews who refused to accept their doctrine, who were the keepers of these texts for centuries... well, I think you see my point. 

For me, I am confident that God has left me a writtten instruction of how to live my life... and it is in the Torah. Beyond that, I am willing to entertain lots of discussion!
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Thu Nov 29 19:05:05 2007
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:05:05 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <962112.73731.qm@web1013.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <962112.73731.qm@web1013.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c832ed$0cfe9cf0$0200a8c0@marvin>

In 95 I believe it was that I was in Israel with Dr. James Tabor and some
others. We went to the area, or location were it was reported that Yeshua
was buried. As I recall this information was reported by a well respected
Jewish teacher. I do not remember his name. It seems like there is also a
report in history that after the he was crucified he continued to live out
his life and died of old age and was buried in Cashmere, India. I think??!!
It's been a long time.  And as you know he was also buried in Israel.  So
there are many stories.

Hanoch, I enjoy reading your story.  Keep it coming!

marvin

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

Yes Ronnie you are right about the town of Safat having a root in Kabbalah.
This is a very beautiful place but I know nothing of the grave.

Rick



----- Original Message ----
From: Ronnie Fulcher <ronniefulcher at yahoo.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:55:41 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

There is a grave at Safat that many contribute to
Yeshua. I belive that the same town is the root of
Kabbalah.

Ronnie
--- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 
> 
>  
> 
> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a
> lot of "hanging going on!"
> For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a
> love and appreciation
> for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed
> to the G-d of Abraham,
> Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more
> often associated with
> Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should
> not negate the fact that
> he was an observant Jew.
> 
>  
> 
> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow
> under the impression that
> according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in
> Israel (I have forgotten
> the location) where there is a gravesite attributed
> to Yeshua and that his
> grave, among others, is one that has been visited
> and venerated by pious
> rabbis down thru the ages???  I really don't think I
> dreamed this. I thought
> you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we
> might need to check with my
> brother. 
> 
>  
> 
> Love & Blessings,
> 
>  
> 
> Betty/Elisheva 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf
> Of youngbarzel at aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
>  
> 
> Hey Dick - 
> 
>    How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it
> really makes me happy to be
> here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an
> interesting one.
> Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority
> on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
> I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role
> model if someone is
> looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
> 
>    Having said that, if referring to the G-d of
> Yeshua is done in the same
> context as the G-d of any other Jew of history
> (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
> King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
>  
> 
>    Ross makes it very clear on the website that
> Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
> Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize
> that some Rabbi in
> Israel is going to hang me one day for having
> written that, right?   LOL
> Only kidding......   :-)  
>  
>    Best regards Dick!
>        Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
>                      Hanoch
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
> 
>       Just a question I have had in my mind for some
> time.  Do you think it
> would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers
> to use in there prayers,
> "God of YeShua".
> 
>    Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of
> Israel"  " not as God".
> 
> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
> relationship with G-d...
> 
>  
> 
> Shalom to all, 
> 
>      With events that will effect our beloved Eretz
> Yisrael unfolding as I
> write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need
> to be part of a
> "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -
> all it needs to be is
> you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across
> as disjointed, I
> apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not
> from 'my head'  It
> seems I've been doing that a lot lately,
> sighhhh......
> 
>       In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if
> I was "..ready to
> pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the
> Yom Kippur liturgy.  As
> we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually
> chronicling our
> shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en
> melitz yosher..." which
> is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer
> book) as, "..we have no
> advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that
> will speak to HaShem on
> our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else
> for us to count on....
> EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father,
> Our King.  
> 
>      The central prayer in the three daily prayer
> services in Judaism is the
> 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -
> the 18 Blessings (or
> benedictions).  The first two sentences are the
> following (transliterated
> Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu.
> Elohei Avraham, Elohei
> Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is
> simple, the meaning behind
> it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d
> of our Fathers. G-d of
> Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
> 
>  
> 
>      The obvious question is - why the redundancy? 
> After all, the G-d of
> Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob)
> is the SAME G-d....why
> does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what
> I learned, many, many
> years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
> 
>     HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each
> of our Avot (fathers, or
> forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they
> each had their own,
> distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the
> SAME G-d (obviously..), but
> Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship
> with him then did Avraham,
> or each other, for that matter.  
> 
>      So it's up to you and me, to form our own
> relationship(s) with HaShem,
> to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on
> behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
> We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or
> spokesperson that will step up
> for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can. 
> Who knows which of us may
> be the one that can cause the effect to save us from
> the evil decrees??
> 
>     We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail
> now, when so much is at
> stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday
> night), as I've blessed my
> daughters, I have added the following to the
> traditional brachot
> (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our
> Torah, 
=== message truncated ===>
_______________________________________________
> 



    
 
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________




From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 29 19:07:54 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:07:54 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <8CA002FEC2561FB-234C-3B84@mblk-d11.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C9FF421DDD5333-C58-2251@MBLK-M27.sysops.aol.com>
	<C79F154C9D4C460FA5E3309D011CBC81@DickLPC>
	<8CA002FEC2561FB-234C-3B84@mblk-d11.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <33058FD8-3467-4BA4-B515-3350303E7599@earthlink.net>

If we are going to use any designation I really like the idea of  
referring back to the Fathers, as even Isaac and Jacob did...the God  
of our Fathers...it is so powerful. To me it means more to pray as  
Yeshua would pray, i.e., he would not have said "the God of me,  
Yeshua," but the God of Abraham, if one is wanting to be in sync with  
him.

Take care,

James


On Nov 28, 2007, at 6:45 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:

> Hey Dick -
>
>    How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it really makes me  
> happy to be here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an  
> interesting one.  Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority  
> on Jewish Law (Halacha) - I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly  
> not a role model if someone is looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
>
>    Having said that, if referring to the G-d of Yeshua is done in  
> the same context as the G-d of any other Jew of history (Avraham,  
> Yaakov, Yitzchak, King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
>
>    Ross makes it very clear on the website that Yeshua prayed to the  
> G-d of Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize that some  
> Rabbi in Israel is going to hang me one day for having written that,  
> right?   LOL  Only kidding......   :-)
>
>    Best regards Dick!
>        Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
>                      Hanoch
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship  
> with G-d...
>
> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
>       Just a question I have had in my mind for some time.  Do you  
> think it would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers to use  
> in there prayers, "God of YeShua".
>    Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of Israel"  " not as  
> God".
> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G- 
> d...
>
> Shalom to all,
>
>      With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael  
> unfolding as I write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need  
> to be part of a "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -  
> all it needs to be is you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes  
> across as disjointed, I apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally  
> now, not from 'my head'  It seems I've been doing that a lot lately,  
> sighhhh......
>
>       In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready  
> to pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur  
> liturgy.  As we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually  
> chronicling our shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en  
> melitz yosher..." which is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday'  
> prayer book) as, "..we have no advocate.."  In other words, there is  
> no one that will speak to HaShem on our behalf, no one who will  
> intercede...no one else for us to count on.... EXCEPT ourselves, and  
> Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.
>
>      The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in  
> Judaism is the 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -  
> the 18 Blessings (or benedictions).  The first two sentences are the  
> following (transliterated Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei  
> Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The  
> translation is simple, the meaning behind it, a bit more complex. It  
> means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of Abraham, G-d of  
> Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
>
>      The obvious question is - why the redundancy?  After all, the G- 
> d of Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the  
> SAME G-d....why does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what  
> I learned, many, many years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
>
>     HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot  
> (fathers, or forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each  
> had their own, distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the SAME  
> G-d (obviously..), but Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different  
> relationship with him then did Avraham, or each other, for that  
> matter.
>
>      So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with  
> HaShem, to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of  
> Eretz Yisrael.  We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or  
> spokesperson that will step up for us, it's up to each of us to do  
> what we can.  Who knows which of us may be the one that can cause  
> the effect to save us from the evil decrees??
>
>     We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so  
> much is at stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night),  
> as I've blessed my daughters, I have added the following to the  
> traditional brachot (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to  
> our Torah, our Land and our People," and then I add something I  
> learned from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d  
> Avenge his blood), that he said to his children:  "And may you  
> always know the difference between what's important, and what's not."
>
>     May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my  
> new ones....
>
>     B'Ahavat Yisrael,
>              Hanoch
>
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 29 19:08:59 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:08:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <001201c8321e$18373ca0$653c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <001201c8321e$18373ca0$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <FFEEA4A8-9927-47F7-BAC9-083EC6E63A1B@earthlink.net>

Or, you could just read your brother's book, and see the photo of me  
at that grave...:-)

James


On Nov 28, 2007, at 7:23 PM, Betty Givin wrote:

> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all,
>
> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a lot of ?hanging  
> going on!? For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a love  
> and appreciation for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed  
> to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he  
> is more often associated with Christianity thru his Gentile name,  
> Jesus, should not negate the fact that he was an observant Jew.
>
> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow under the  
> impression that according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in  
> Israel (I have forgotten the location) where there is a gravesite  
> attributed to Yeshua and that his grave, among others, is one that  
> has been visited and venerated by pious rabbis down thru the  
> ages???  I really don?t think I dreamed this. I thought you might  
> have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we might need to check with my  
> brother.
>
> Love & Blessings,
>
> Betty/Elisheva
>
>
>
>
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship  
> with G-d...
>
> Hey Dick -
>
>    How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it really makes me  
> happy to be here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an  
> interesting one.  Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority  
> on Jewish Law (Halacha) - I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly  
> not a role model if someone is looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
>
>    Having said that, if referring to the G-d of Yeshua is done in  
> the same context as the G-d of any other Jew of history (Avraham,  
> Yaakov, Yitzchak, King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
>
>    Ross makes it very clear on the website that Yeshua prayed to the  
> G-d of Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize that some  
> Rabbi in Israel is going to hang me one day for having written that,  
> right?   LOL  Only kidding......   :-)
>
>    Best regards Dick!
>        Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
>                      Hanoch
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship  
> with G-d...
> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
>       Just a question I have had in my mind for some time.  Do you  
> think it would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers to use  
> in there prayers, "God of YeShua".
>    Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of Israel"  " not as  
> God".
> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G- 
> d...
>
> Shalom to all,
>
>      With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael  
> unfolding as I write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need  
> to be part of a "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -  
> all it needs to be is you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes  
> across as disjointed, I apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally  
> now, not from 'my head'  It seems I've been doing that a lot lately,  
> sighhhh......
>
>       In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready  
> to pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur  
> liturgy.  As we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually  
> chronicling our shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en  
> melitz yosher..." which is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday'  
> prayer book) as, "..we have no advocate.."  In other words, there is  
> no one that will speak to HaShem on our behalf, no one who will  
> intercede...no one else for us to count on.... EXCEPT ourselves, and  
> Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.
>
>      The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in  
> Judaism is the 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -  
> the 18 Blessings (or benedictions).  The first two sentences are the  
> following (transliterated Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei  
> Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The  
> translation is simple, the meaning behind it, a bit more complex. It  
> means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of Abraham, G-d of  
> Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
>
>      The obvious question is - why the redundancy?  After all, the G- 
> d of Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the  
> SAME G-d....why does it describe it in THATmanner?  And here's what  
> I learned, many, many years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
>
>     HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot  
> (fathers, or forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each  
> had their own, distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the SAME  
> G-d (obviously..), but Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different  
> relationship with him then did Avraham, or each other, for that  
> matter.
>
>      So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with  
> HaShem, to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of  
> Eretz Yisrael.  We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or  
> spokesperson that will step up for us, it's up to each of us to do  
> what we can.  Who knows which of us may be the one that can cause  
> the effect to save us from the evil decrees??
>
>     We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so  
> much is at stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night),  
> as I've blessed my daughters, I have added the following to the  
> traditional brachot (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to  
> our Torah, our Land and our People," and then I add something I  
> learned from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d  
> Avenge his blood), that he said to his children:  "And may you  
> always know the difference between what's important, and what's not."
>
>     May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my  
> new ones....
>
>     B'Ahavat Yisrael,
>              Hanoch
>
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 29 19:17:49 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:17:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <147932.59545.qm@web55408.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <147932.59545.qm@web55408.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8C9E873B-76D1-454A-AFA5-200DBD8DF0A9@earthlink.net>

Hey Ronnie, glad to see your name pop up here...I was wondering how  
you all were...

James Tabor


On Nov 29, 2007, at 5:55 PM, Ronnie Fulcher wrote:

> There is a grave at Safat that many contribute to
> Yeshua. I belive that the same town is the root of
> Kabbalah.
>
> Ronnie
> --- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a
>> lot of "hanging going on!"
>> For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a
>> love and appreciation
>> for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed
>> to the G-d of Abraham,
>> Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more
>> often associated with
>> Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should
>> not negate the fact that
>> he was an observant Jew.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow
>> under the impression that
>> according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in
>> Israel (I have forgotten
>> the location) where there is a gravesite attributed
>> to Yeshua and that his
>> grave, among others, is one that has been visited
>> and venerated by pious
>> rabbis down thru the ages???  I really don't think I
>> dreamed this. I thought
>> you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we
>> might need to check with my
>> brother.
>>
>>
>>
>> Love & Blessings,
>>
>>
>>
>> Betty/Elisheva
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  _____
>>
>> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
>> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf
>> Of youngbarzel at aol.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey Dick -
>>
>>   How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it
>> really makes me happy to be
>> here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an
>> interesting one.
>> Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority
>> on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
>> I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role
>> model if someone is
>> looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
>>
>>   Having said that, if referring to the G-d of
>> Yeshua is done in the same
>> context as the G-d of any other Jew of history
>> (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
>> King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
>>
>>
>>   Ross makes it very clear on the website that
>> Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
>> Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize
>> that some Rabbi in
>> Israel is going to hang me one day for having
>> written that, right?   LOL
>> Only kidding......   :-)
>>
>>   Best regards Dick!
>>       Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
>>                     Hanoch
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>>
>> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
>>
>>      Just a question I have had in my mind for some
>> time.  Do you think it
>> would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers
>> to use in there prayers,
>> "God of YeShua".
>>
>>   Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of
>> Israel"  " not as God".
>>
>> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>>
>>
>>
>> Shalom to all,
>>
>>     With events that will effect our beloved Eretz
>> Yisrael unfolding as I
>> write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need
>> to be part of a
>> "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -
>> all it needs to be is
>> you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across
>> as disjointed, I
>> apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not
>> from 'my head'  It
>> seems I've been doing that a lot lately,
>> sighhhh......
>>
>>      In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if
>> I was "..ready to
>> pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the
>> Yom Kippur liturgy.  As
>> we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually
>> chronicling our
>> shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en
>> melitz yosher..." which
>> is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer
>> book) as, "..we have no
>> advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that
>> will speak to HaShem on
>> our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else
>> for us to count on....
>> EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father,
>> Our King.
>>
>>     The central prayer in the three daily prayer
>> services in Judaism is the
>> 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -
>> the 18 Blessings (or
>> benedictions).  The first two sentences are the
>> following (transliterated
>> Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu.
>> Elohei Avraham, Elohei
>> Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is
>> simple, the meaning behind
>> it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d
>> of our Fathers. G-d of
>> Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
>>
>>
>>
>>     The obvious question is - why the redundancy?
>> After all, the G-d of
>> Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob)
>> is the SAME G-d....why
>> does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what
>> I learned, many, many
>> years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
>>
>>    HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each
>> of our Avot (fathers, or
>> forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they
>> each had their own,
>> distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the
>> SAME G-d (obviously..), but
>> Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship
>> with him then did Avraham,
>> or each other, for that matter.
>>
>>     So it's up to you and me, to form our own
>> relationship(s) with HaShem,
>> to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on
>> behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
>> We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or
>> spokesperson that will step up
>> for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.
>> Who knows which of us may
>> be the one that can cause the effect to save us from
>> the evil decrees??
>>
>>    We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail
>> now, when so much is at
>> stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday
>> night), as I've blessed my
>> daughters, I have added the following to the
>> traditional brachot
>> (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our
>> Torah,
> === message truncated ===>
> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
>
>       
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________



From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 29 19:30:35 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:30:35 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
In-Reply-To: <113020070052.12580.474F5ED800087A260000312422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <113020070052.12580.474F5ED800087A260000312422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <2D95E16B-FBE6-4353-88A3-71262E07EAED@earthlink.net>

Hey everyone, I had to smile at this a bit as Rick also wrote me "off  
list" and asked if he would be welcome to attend the UIWU meeting. I  
guess you guys need to ask your "Teacher" Ross, or John & David who  
came last year, what is UIWU all about??  It is not James Tabor and  
his view on this or that, but something much more fundamental,  
established by the late but beloved David Horowitz back in 1944 in the  
dark days of WW II

EVERYONE is invited and welcome to attend UIWU.  We have no dogmas, no  
creeds, if you take a look you can see from even what Ross has on his  
Web site that all you guys totally qualify:

http://rootsoffaith.org/uiwu_page.htm

This was the wonderful Wisdom of our founder to make thing so open and  
undogmatic. UIWU is not a church or a religion, but an educational  
movement dedicated to bringing the Hebraic faith to all nations, but  
in particular to the "lost tribes."  Please come...We are going to  
have a wonderful time, with a pretty big group planned this year that  
will require us to get another facility...For years we had been  
meeting in a hotel that only held about 50. Simcha Jacobovici is going  
to come in from Israel, also John Hulley I hope, and others, including  
the illustrious Hanoch Young (and I know his REAL name!) I hope, and  
others from NY and all over...

We had set the dates as the weekend of April 11-13 but I need to  
confirm things with Smicha so there is a possibility that it might be  
April 4-6. I will let you all know soon.

James Tabor


On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:52 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote:

> May Rhonda and I attend as well?
> _______________________________________________



From dennyj at mac.com  Thu Nov 29 19:33:45 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:33:45 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <113020070100.2574.474F60BA0000381F00000A0E22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <113020070100.2574.474F60BA0000381F00000A0E22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <DD8B46DE-07EA-4614-A7E8-9371E6FEBF1A@mac.com>

Glenn,

Thanks for your candid thoughts. As I put myself in the New Testament  
writer's shoes, I can't help but think that they did not consider what  
they were writing to be scripture. They understood what scripture was  
and that is what they lived by.  And Yeshua spoke and taught from that  
same recognized scripture. That is where I am starting and have to  
admit that I wish I understood more of Torah. I have sadly neglected  
it all these years growing up in the church.

I really want to know what it was that Yeshua told the disciples while  
on the road to Emmaus concerning himself and Torah.  Do you think  
there was more to his life that just to show us how to live a Torah  
observant life? Is the idea that Yeshua is my savior also something I  
should be letting go of?

I wonder if you or others might share more concerning what you think  
the specific lies are that Christianity has foisted upon us. It is  
obvious by reading your stories and some of the dates that you all  
have been down this road much longer than I. Was it difficult for you  
to let go of all the Christian baggage?

Hungry to learn more,

Denny


On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:00 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote:

> Denny, Glenn again... to add to my previous response... I am not  
> saying that the NT is not Canon... for ME right NOW, I am taking a  
> big step backward and attempting to sort out the lies from the  
> truth. I also have that deep sense of having been betrayed.
>
> As for the veracity of the texts - well, I'm not sure, because it is  
> clear from even minimal research that changes have been made. Add to  
> that the nefarious dealings of those who killed Jews who refused to  
> accept their doctrine, who were the keepers of these texts for  
> centuries... well, I think you see my point.
>
> For me, I am confident that God has left me a writtten instruction  
> of how to live my life... and it is in the Torah. Beyond that, I am  
> willing to entertain lots of discussion!
> _______________________________________________



From rndavar at aol.com  Thu Nov 29 19:40:49 2007
From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:40:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
In-Reply-To: <BF930F66-63A0-4F19-A31E-54E3EE895FBF@earthlink.net>
References: <112620070541.9850.474A5C8F0007E1240000267A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<8C9FE6A32493A09-7A8-2EEF@webmail-de01.sysops.aol.com>
	<BF930F66-63A0-4F19-A31E-54E3EE895FBF@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8CA01092BB0C465-3E0-85D@FWM-M45.sysops.aol.com>


All,

I want to encourage everyone on this list to begin making plans now to attend the UIWU meeting in Charlotte this coming April.? I have attended this conference for several years now and can tell you that this gathering is certainly one of the high points of my year. It is always exciting to meet others who are interested in the Bible and this conference is always attended by just such a crowd.



The torah says that this is one of the things we should spend our tithes on....going to the feasts and this conference is typically around Passover. 



I am looking forward to this. Besides James Tabor, we also expect Simcha Jacobavichi to be in attendance. Of course there are many others that attend and I would be willing to bet that there are few conferences today that have the collective knowledge of the Bible as this one has year after year.



We really may look at chartering a bus and bringing the whole Roots of Faith gang this year.



Let's discuss!? Shalom, Ross


-----Original Message-----
From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 6:41 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting



Hey you guys, and everyone else. ?I have an idea. ?You can ALL meet one another quite soon, at the UIWU April meeting! ?Details to come but some very exciting things.?



James







On Nov 26, 2007, at 12:37 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:



Shalom John,

?

??? Thank you so much for your note, you have no idea what a 'shot in the arm' it was for me.? It's funny, although I've yet to have the pleasure of meeting you, I feel like we're old pals - must be that Brooklyn connection, huh?? :-)? 

?

???? You know, I never doubt that HaShem has a plan for me, and that those things that seem difficult, or enormous obstacles now, all have a role to play for the future.? However, it's getting through the present - those very tough times, when everything seems to be going wrong, and every decision you make, you come to quickly regret, THAT's the tough part.? The toughest part, actually...

???? It's a true gift from HaShem to be satisfied with one's 'lot in life,' to be able to be grateful for those friends and family members who can bring such joy to your lives.? That's one side of it...on the other side, are the 'would've, should've and could've' elements that drive you crazy!? That's where my mind has been hanging out lately....Every mistake I've made, every poor choice, and the ramifications of all of them....

???? But you're right John, it's great to have such caring individuals here, in this "synagogue without walls;" which is actually the FRIENDLIEST synagogue I've ever been a part of!!!?? :-)? :-) 
HaShem will bring you, me, and all of us who need him though these tough?times.? HE will comfort us, Help us heal from our losses, and restore calm to us all, even when there seems to be 'no way out.'?? 

?? Thanks for welcoming me (back), and reaching out, you are a real 'bro' - in all the deepest meanings of the term.? And it's great to be back in what you've called, the 'fray.'? No matter how much any of us are hurting, we have a great cause that we must continue battling for.? These are truly the "end of days..." when the forces of evil in the world are standing against HaShem, HIS land and HIS people, how can we not rise to the occasion?!?!? 

?? May we all draw strength from HaShem, and from each other....thanks for reaching out, pal - you've truly brightened what has been a horrible couple of days.? I'll try to post as often as I can....this may be my only sanity check!? LOL

??? B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel),
??????????? Hanoch

???????????? 



-----Original Message-----
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41 am
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers







Hey Hanoch,

?

I've been reading along for the last couple of days.? I know I don't have a clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last year or so other than some of your work trials.? But I can honestly say that my world has been completely turned on it;s ear over the last year as well.? Loss of family and friends, emotional upheavals, major career changes, it's a lot to deal with.? I don't know if my troubles have been anything close to yours but I can say that HaShem is bringing me through it all with more hope and clarity than I could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt in my mind He will do the same for you.? It is good to have so many here to support each other.

?

It is also good to see you back in the fray.

?

As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and real way for us to make a difference.? Count me in.

?

Your brother from Brooklyn,

?

Shalom.


--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Shalom to all - 

?

??? The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over Israel's borders.? With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.? Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....

?

??? For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our nation.? Please check it out, and spread the word...

??? ??? ??? Hanoch

Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot & Cold Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! 




Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.




_______________________________________________


Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!

_______________________________________________




= 


_______________________________________________


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 29 19:47:19 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:47:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
In-Reply-To: <8CA01092BB0C465-3E0-85D@FWM-M45.sysops.aol.com>
References: <112620070541.9850.474A5C8F0007E1240000267A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<8C9FE6A32493A09-7A8-2EEF@webmail-de01.sysops.aol.com>
	<BF930F66-63A0-4F19-A31E-54E3EE895FBF@earthlink.net>
	<8CA01092BB0C465-3E0-85D@FWM-M45.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <13D67921-80C9-4AA5-82AF-9548963E24E3@earthlink.net>

Wow, now there's an idea...A Roots of Faith bus coming our way!!   
People get ready, there's a bus coming...This is just too  
exciting...And the music...I can hardly think how moving it would be?   
You guys are so very talented.  We also have a woman here, Jeanne  
Rees, who is opera quality, like a Cantor. We can get her also to  
perform. It will really be lovely.  Why am I thinking there is some  
kind of explosive breakthrough brewing here...Should a get a place for  
100 or 500? Ross always wanted to preach to an "arena."

James

Ross I just sent a photo to the group that got stopped for size, check  
it out and see if you can put it through. You will get a kick out of  
it...



On Nov 29, 2007, at 8:40 PM, rndavar at aol.com wrote:

> All,
>
> I want to encourage everyone on this list to begin making plans now  
> to attend the UIWU meeting in Charlotte this coming April.  I have  
> attended this conference for several years now and can tell you that  
> this gathering is certainly one of the high points of my year. It is  
> always exciting to meet others who are interested in the Bible and  
> this conference is always attended by just such a crowd.
>
> The torah says that this is one of the things we should spend our  
> tithes on....going to the feasts and this conference is typically  
> around Passover.
>
> I am looking forward to this. Besides James Tabor, we also expect  
> Simcha Jacobavichi to be in attendance. Of course there are many  
> others that attend and I would be willing to bet that there are few  
> conferences today that have the collective knowledge of the Bible as  
> this one has year after year.
>
> We really may look at chartering a bus and bringing the whole Roots  
> of Faith gang this year.
>
> Let's discuss!  Shalom, Ross
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 6:41 pm
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
>
> Hey you guys, and everyone else.  I have an idea.  You can ALL meet  
> one another quite soon, at the UIWU April meeting!  Details to come  
> but some very exciting things.
>
> James
>
>
> On Nov 26, 2007, at 12:37 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Shalom John,
>>
>>     Thank you so much for your note, you have no idea what a 'shot  
>> in the arm' it was for me.  It's funny, although I've yet to have  
>> the pleasure of meeting you, I feel like we're old pals - must be  
>> that Brooklyn connection, huh?  :-)
>>
>>      You know, I never doubt that HaShem has a plan for me, and  
>> that those things that seem difficult, or enormous obstacles now,  
>> all have a role to play for the future.  However, it's getting  
>> through the present - those very tough times, when everything seems  
>> to be going wrong, and every decision you make, you come to quickly  
>> regret, THAT's the tough part.  The toughest part, actually...
>>
>>      It's a true gift from HaShem to be satisfied with one's 'lot  
>> in life,' to be able to be grateful for those friends and family  
>> members who can bring such joy to your lives.  That's one side of  
>> it...on the other side, are the 'would've, should've and could've'  
>> elements that drive you crazy!  That's where my mind has been  
>> hanging out lately....Every mistake I've made, every poor choice,  
>> and the ramifications of all of them....
>>
>>      But you're right John, it's great to have such caring  
>> individuals here, in this "synagogue without walls;" which is  
>> actually the FRIENDLIEST synagogue I've ever been a part  
>> of!!!   :-)  :-)
>> HaShem will bring you, me, and all of us who need him though these  
>> tough times.  HE will comfort us, Help us heal from our losses, and  
>> restore calm to us all, even when there seems to be 'no way out.'
>>
>>    Thanks for welcoming me (back), and reaching out, you are a real  
>> 'bro' - in all the deepest meanings of the term.  And it's great to  
>> be back in what you've called, the 'fray.'  No matter how much any  
>> of us are hurting, we have a great cause that we must continue  
>> battling for.  These are truly the "end of days..." when the forces  
>> of evil in the world are standing against HaShem, HIS land and HIS  
>> people, how can we not rise to the occasion?!?!
>>
>>    May we all draw strength from HaShem, and from each  
>> other....thanks for reaching out, pal - you've truly brightened  
>> what has been a horrible couple of days.  I'll try to post as often  
>> as I can....this may be my only sanity check!  LOL
>>
>>     B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel),
>>             Hanoch
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41 am
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
>>
>> Hey Hanoch,
>>
>> I've been reading along for the last couple of days.  I know I  
>> don't have a clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last  
>> year or so other than some of your work trials.  But I can honestly  
>> say that my world has been completely turned on it;s ear over the  
>> last year as well.  Loss of family and friends, emotional  
>> upheavals, major career changes, it's a lot to deal with.  I don't  
>> know if my troubles have been anything close to yours but I can say  
>> that HaShem is bringing me through it all with more hope and  
>> clarity than I could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt  
>> in my mind He will do the same for you.  It is good to have so many  
>> here to support each other.
>>
>> It is also good to see you back in the fray.
>>
>> As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and  
>> real way for us to make a difference.  Count me in.
>>
>> Your brother from Brooklyn,
>>
>> Shalom.
>> --
>> John C.
>>
>> "Be excellent to each other!"
>> Bill and Ted
>>
>> -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com:  
>> --------------
>>
>> Shalom to all -
>>
>>     The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and  
>> other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are  
>> standing guard over Israel's borders.  With Chanukah coming up,  
>> remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.  Here in the U.S. it's potato  
>> latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....
>>
>>     For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are  
>> serving our nation.  Please check it out, and spread the word...
>>             Hanoch
>> Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot & Cold Soup for our  
>> Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and  
>> top money wasters of 2007.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
>> _______________________________________________
>
> =
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 29 19:39:51 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:39:51 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
In-Reply-To: <8CA00DCDB1CD797-DD8-DC3@FWM-D42.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CA00DCDB1CD797-DD8-DC3@FWM-D42.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4683963E-DD1C-4DD8-BDA3-CAC231CA01FC@earthlink.net>

I just have to say here, in catching up on all these wonderful  
messages tonight, that this cross-communication from the UI list folk  
to the ROF folk back and forth is incredibly wonderful. Hanoch, you  
have made it happen.  You are more than our "token Jew," but you among  
those of Judah have shown yourself over the years to have such a heart  
for those of the lost Tribes that your teaching and inspiration is  
such a blessing to us all.

I have to post here the photo of us at the UI meeting back in 2005  
when you were last able to be with us. We were kind of joking around,  
talking about the passage in Zechariah of the "ten" of the nations  
that take hold of the tzitzit of the man of "Judah" and I got the  
bright idea of asking the UIWU board at that time to come up who were  
present--and you guess it, there were TEN of us, from among the  
languages of the nations, so we decided, totally unplanned and  
spontaneously, to grab your tzitzit!

James

For those of you who don't know Hanoch, you can now figure it out!!


On Nov 29, 2007, at 3:23 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:

> You guys crack me up!!  Let me get through THIS version first, and  
> I'll keep throwing little stories your way if you'd like,  
> okay?!  :-)  Remind me to tell you about practicing reading Hebrew  
> in a Catholic Church (my classroom at the local Public School had  
> just burned down).  And I've got hundreds more.....just living in  
> NYC is an experience!  But what I've gone through really, really has  
> a lot to do with whatever it is that I might be able to offer this  
> 'synagogue without walls.'  And like I've already said, it's the  
> friendliest shul (synagogue) I've ever been in!!!!!!!
>
>    Hanoch
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kim.alvarado at charter.net
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 2:50 pm
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
>
> Ditto, I want every detail.  Maybe you should consider putting it in  
> a book one
> day.
>
> Kim
> ---- Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com> wrote:
>
> =============
>          Make it as long as you can Hanoch. Love it !  Dick L.
>   Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
>
>
>   Thanks Tammy, I appreciate the kind words.  Believe it or not,  
> this is
> actually ALL going to make sense (okay, only somewhat, perhaps...),  
> to explain
> who I am, how I got to be in the midst of THIS group, and why when I  
> say things,
> you can't always take it as "the standard Jewish view of things."  I  
> am actually
> leaving out a number of things that make for interesting anecdotes,  
> but maybe
> some other time.
>
>   After all, Ross asked for a SHORT introduction, not a new War &  
> Peace !!
>
>   Shalom for now,
>            Hanoch
>
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Tammy & Bruce Croley <tsbcroley at yahoo.com>
>   To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>   Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 8:50 am
>   Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
>
>
>   Good Morning Hanoch,
>       Reading about your life is so interesting.   It is almost like  
> reading a
> novel.......makes my life seem so simple and sheltered.  HaShem has  
> a plan for
> all of us and so I shouldn't seem as though I am complaining about  
> my life. I
> truly thank Him for all that I have or have not experienced.   
> Looking forward to
> the next installment!
>   Shalom,
>   Tammy
>
>   YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:
>     Okay, where were we...so, I'm a kid growing up with the average  
> American
> Jewish background - little education, memorized how to chant my  
> Haftara (the
> portion of the prophets that's read in synagogues after the Torah  
> reading every
> Shabbat) at my Bar Mitzva.  We went to shul (the Yiddish term for  
> synagogue) on
> the "High Holidays" (Rosh HaShana & Yom Kippur), ate matza on  
> Passover, but
> didn't keep Kosher or celebrate ('observe,' as some would say)  
> Shabbat.
>
>     BTW (by the way) - if I use any terms you're not familiar with,  
> please write
> to me, and I will gladly explain them; please feel free, I mean it.
>
>     I had few friends growing up, and got into more then a few  
> fights with those
> who viewed me as the local "Christ killer (by my being Jewish, of  
> course..)."
> My parents, Of Blessed Memory provided a loving home, and were  
> thrilled that I
> was able to get the scholarship to go to Israel after H.S.  
> otherwise, we could
> never have afforded it.  We lived a kind of 'upper lower class'  
> existence - had
> food on the table, but we didn't have a car, we didn't go on  
> vacation, and I was
> never able to go away to camp.  Please understand, the reason I'm  
> telling you
> all of this is to set the scene for how I felt out of place, and  
> didn't just
> slip into being an average American, instead of a committed, serious  
> Jew.
>
>     My father was a gentle man, who never, ever raised a hand to  
> me.  He had a
> very tough life (which I didn't find out until years after his  
> death, when his
> older brother told me stories), growing up in the depression.  He  
> and his
> brothers used to go around the neighborhood to collect cardboard, so  
> they could
> 'patch up' the holes in their house, where the wind whipped in.  Dad  
> was in
> retail men's clothing, and worked six days/week, three nights, and  
> never had
> more then two weeks vacation in his whole life.  He died of lung  
> cancer at the
> age of 64, in 1984 (In the '50's my family moved to Savannah,  
> Georgia to manage
> a clothing store - but no one would buy from a "New York Jew," and  
> the business
> venture failed.  However, if I had been born less then a year  
> earlier, I would
> have been a 'Southern Boy!"  What a mix of accents THAT would have  
> been).
>
>     But I'm straying from my story - I remember my dad's favorite  
> thing to do,
> was to sit in the livingroom, in the dark, listening to cantorial  
> (Jewish
> liturgical) records.  The mournful (it SOUNDED mournful to me..)  
> sounds were
> deeply emotional (although I was unfamiliar with the prayers being  
> chanted), and
> my father would sit there with tears running down his cheeks.....I  
> didn't
> realize it at the time, but that was my first experience with what I  
> came to
> realize was an aspect of Jewish spirituality.  Years later, I too  
> would listen
> to those same records (then taped, as the technology advanced), and  
> at that
> point I knew what the cantor was chanting, and I too sat and  
> cried...still do,
> if the truth be told. It was then that I learned the power of music  
> and song
> that could touch your very soul (even MORE then Black Sabbath's  
> "Paranoid" which
> I loved to listen to fall asleep! Man, I was weird...)
>
>     But it was my trip to Israel which exposed me to many Jewish  
> 'rituals' that
> eventually became part of my daily life.  It was in Israel, standing  
> at the top
> of Masada, where my co-religionists killed themselves rather then be  
> Roman
> slaves that I saw an ancient pair of tefilin ('phylacteries').  I  
> had seen them,
> and put them on before my Bar Mitzva, but I didn't even own a pair,  
> myself (I
> recall my folks offering to buy them for me, and my telling them not  
> to waste
> their money, I would never use them..).  I actually recall thinking,  
> if King
> David could put those things on, then maybe I should, too!  I saw a  
> mikva (a
> ritual bath) on Masada as well, reminding me of how little I really  
> knew about
> traditional Judaism.
>
>         So, let's review what was going on with little, soon to be  
> 17 year old
> Hanoch (then still known as "Howie").  I felt fiercely proud of  
> being Jewish,
> and my heritage, although knowing little of it, I was not accepted  
> by the
> neighborhood kids, and didn't have the normal/typical "boy/girl"  
> interactions
> (you guys don't need ALL the specifics, do you?! LOL), I spent 7  
> amazing weeks
> in Israel, touring all over the Land.  An Israel that (in the summer  
> of 1973)
> was cocky and self assured, having won the miraculous 6 Day War,  
> only 7 years
> before.
>
>     What would have happened to me then, had the Yom Kippur War not  
> broken out,
> I don't really know.  I signed up for Hebrew classes (I could read,  
> from having
> been in Hebrew School) and American Jewish History, but it was at  
> the local
> branch of the City University of New York (5 blocks from my  
> house!).  So, I
> didn't have a campus life (read: 'social life').  Relatively  
> 'alone,' starting
> college, becoming Jewishly aware, enormous rage at the Irish kids I  
> had to fight
> (AND their sisters, for those 'other' reasons), having just been in  
> Israel, and
> 7 weeks later - Israel's at war....and losing...badly. Could the  
> Holocaust be
> happening again?
>
>     I went to demonstrations and rallies, but it was the winter of  
> 1974 (just 2
> months after the war) that I joined Betar, which was a bit more  
> 'ideological'
> then the Jewish Defense League (which I also began to be involved  
> with a year
> later...).  We read books about the heroes of the Jewish underground  
> movements
> that fought against the British occupation of the Land of Israel,  
> and that
> prevented Europe's Jews from reaching a safe haven in what was then  
> called,
> "Mandatory Palestine."
>
>     We learned to shoot weapons, and took martial arts classes - all  
> to be
> prepared to help Jews.  Those a bit older then I, went on Aliyah  
> (literally
> "Going Up") - moving to Israel, and joined the Army.  Oops..running  
> out of time,
> got home from work less then 8 hours ago, but it's time to go back  
> already!
> :-(
>
>     In November 1974, Arafat (May his name be erased!) came to the  
> U.N. for the
> first time, pistol in his holster at the General Assembly.  Yes,  
> there were
> demonstrations against this arch-terrorist, but it was the chanting,  
> peaceful
> kind....even with NYPD snipers staked out on the roof of the New  
> York Hilton
> Hotel.  But a group of 30 of us from Betar made it TO the U.N. gates  
> and
> handcuffed ourselves to the gates, splattering animal blood over the  
> sidewalk,
> and burning an effigy of Arafat.  The police went nuts!!!!  The news  
> guys LOVED
> it, we were in Army fatigues, and clearly weren't taking any  
> 'poop' (not sure
> how colorful Ross wants my language to get...) from anyone.
>
>         This was my first arrest, at age 18, but it was done to help  
> save the
> Jewish people (which is important to note was my mindset at the  
> time.  Not to
> spend time with the young women I was meeting, but to do ACTION, to  
> help Israel,
> save Jews and avenge the Holocaust).  It was almost like the old  
> Superman TV
> show - for ..."Truth, Justice, and the American way..."
>
>     We got tons of press, including a shot of my blood stained hands  
> (animal
> blood folks, remember?) handcuffed to the U.N. gates in the New York  
> Daily News
> - still have the copy.  I also got a copy (someone got it - don't  
> know how) of
> an Associated Press photo of me (and another guy who later went to  
> prison for
> bombing Russian facilities....) being lead away in handcuffs.  It's  
> a GREAT
> shot, and maybe one day when I learn to scan, I can forward it to  
> you guys for
> your amusement.  It was VERY cool......at that time everyone hated  
> Arafat, and I
> remember being the 'hero' of the few Jews in the neighborhood, and  
> my mom's
> friends (although when I called my mom from the police station, she  
> DID ask me
> if I had enough food to eat with me....once a Jewish mother, always  
> a Jewish
> mother).  But people congratulated me, and my friends older sister  
> (an 'older
> woman' of 23, kissed me on the cheek for having been arrested for  
> this cause.  I
> didn't wash  that cheek for weeks...)
>
>     Okay, got to make this fast....In the Fall/Winter of 1974/1975 the
> Disengagement agreement that Henry Kissinger had arranged between  
> Israel and
> Syria was set to expire, and it was clear that Israel would have to  
> go to war,
> yet again.  During the War, American planes with desperately needed  
> weapons and
> ammunition ('cause the Soviets were supplying the Egyptians and the  
> Syrians)
> reached Israel, after refueling on the Azores Islands, a Portuguese  
> possession.
> Portugal announced that in the 'event of hostilities inthe Middle  
> East' they
> would not allow U.S. planes to land - which would have made Israel's  
> resupply
> impossible.
>
>         So, we knew we had to strike out against Portugal  
> immediately.  We would
> teach them a lesson!!  But how do you attack Portugal in NYC??  We  
> found out
> there was an office (street level storefront type) of TAP, which  
> actually stood
> for: "The Airline of Portugal."   A group of us drove into the city,  
> and TAP was
> located on 5th Avenue, and 40something street (you guys MUST know  
> what 5th
> Avenue is like in the evening, right?!?!?).  Two of us got out of  
> the car, both
> in Army fatigue jackets (Vietnam surplus was still considered  
> 'cool'), both with
> tire irons.  Gershon (who was still, 'George Green' at the time, and  
> is today a
> top chemical engineer at Israel's huge refinery in Haifa) was to  
> smash their
> windows, I was to pound my tire iron in my hand, and look menacing,  
> so no one
> would interfere.  We would make these Portuguese pay for threatening  
> Israel!
>
>     He ran up to it, reared back, swung the tire iron...and the  
> window didn't
> break!!  Damn!!!!!!!   He gathered all his strength to pound it  
> again, and swung
> - there was a noise, but no glass breaking!!!!!!!  I guess the third  
> time is a
> charm, because he then smashed two 'foot sized' holes in the glass,  
> and then we
> ran like hell, to our waiting get away car.  We yellled at Dave to  
> go, step on
> it...the care lurched forward and we were immediately smashed into  
> by the NYPD,
> with their guns pointed out our heads...the good news is that they  
> were the old
> 38 caliber ones, not the more intimidating 9mm Glock automatics they  
> now carry.
> We were busted.....it seems there had been a high speed car cahse  
> nearby, and
> this Police car was returning to its precinct, across town, right at  
> that
> moment; just our luck....and it turns out, we caused $15,000 worth  
> of damage...
>
>     They acted as if they had just caught the assassins of President  
> Kennedy
> (and there WAS more then one).  But time is really late, so let me  
> give you the
> 'Readers Digest' version.  We were stuck in these large,smelly,  
> filthy 'holding
> cells' which housed 30 or so 'inmates.'  The flotsam and jetsam of NY
> society...the lowlife creeps you'd cross the street to get away  
> from.  They were
> now our intimate neighbors.  After standing in the middle of the  
> cell, we
> finally were too exhausted and we sat down on the filthy, grimy  
> floor (think of
> the shipboard jail in "Pirates of the Carribean").
>
>     Now, I'm going to use the actual language spoken to me - please  
> do not think
> of me as racist, it's just to accurately portray what was said.  A  
> quick
> glossary of terms though:
>     Shabbos - the Yiddish way of pronouncing Shabbat
>
>     Kiddish - Kiddush the sanctification of wine on Shabbat and  
> holidays, but
> also referred to the giving of wine, cake and some food at some shuls
> (synagogues) on Shabbat.
>
>     An extremely well dressed Black man saunters over to us, wearing  
> a light
> brown three piece suit, wearing a bowler (sp?) hat!!   We're sitting  
> on the
> floor, miserable, tired, hungry, and upset we got arrested, when we  
> thought we
> would get away clear.  What's the point of being arrested if there's  
> no press
> coverage??
>
>     He said, "Shalom, Hebrew brothers!!"  We smiled and said 'hi'.   
> He then
> asked, "whatcha in for?  Was ya pimpin? (yeah right, these yarmulke  
> wearing,
> guys with soiled army fatigue jackets were pimping!!)"  He then  
> wanted to know
> if we dealt drugs, and a whole variety of things.  But he kept asking,
> "...really now - was ya pimpin'??
>
>     He came back a few minutes later...and then told us: "Isz (read:  
> 'I') go to
> shul, every Shabbos!"  We freaked out, asking him if he was Jewish,  
> were did he
> live, and a million rapid fire questions....He quickly said, "No,  
> no, isz only
> go for Kiddish..."  Only in New York, right?
>
>     Later that night, someone came in with a copy of the newspaper,  
> which he
> read.  He quickly realized that we were the "Jewish militants  
> arrested last
> night," and came over and said in a shocked, accusatory tone,"Youz  
> broke
> windows!!!!!!!!"   It would have been fine to have been a pimp  
> (although my mom
> would have been disappointed in me..LOL), or to have dealt drugs -  
> but NOT to
> break windows!!!!!!!   Too weird.
>
>     Okay got to go:  Part III will be my demonstration in Russia,  
> JDL Leadership
> school in Israel with Rav Kahane and friends going to prison.  But  
> most
> importantly - when did I actully begin truly studying Torah.  All of  
> this links
> me where I am today....
>
>     Sorry it's SO long,
>             Hanoch
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and  
> top money
> wasters of 2007.
>     _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I  
> place my
> every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This  
> is very good
> and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am  
> completely dependant
> upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do  
> only His
> will."
>                                                             Rabbi  
> Nachman's
> Wisdom 2
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail.  
> See how.
> _______________________________________________
>
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From ronniefulcher at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 29 20:12:56 2007
From: ronniefulcher at yahoo.com (Ronnie Fulcher)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:12:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <8C9E873B-76D1-454A-AFA5-200DBD8DF0A9@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <231781.31221.qm@web55404.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Been Super Busy Dr Tabor - Looking for some Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Needing some safety folks part time know any?

James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote:  Hey Ronnie, glad to see your name pop up here...I was wondering how 
you all were...

James Tabor


On Nov 29, 2007, at 5:55 PM, Ronnie Fulcher wrote:

> There is a grave at Safat that many contribute to
> Yeshua. I belive that the same town is the root of
> Kabbalah.
>
> Ronnie
> --- Betty Givin wrote:
>
>> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a
>> lot of "hanging going on!"
>> For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a
>> love and appreciation
>> for Torah. And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed
>> to the G-d of Abraham,
>> Isaac and Jacob, as do we. Just because he is more
>> often associated with
>> Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should
>> not negate the fact that
>> he was an observant Jew.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow
>> under the impression that
>> according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in
>> Israel (I have forgotten
>> the location) where there is a gravesite attributed
>> to Yeshua and that his
>> grave, among others, is one that has been visited
>> and venerated by pious
>> rabbis down thru the ages??? I really don't think I
>> dreamed this. I thought
>> you might have heard of this Hanoch. If not, we
>> might need to check with my
>> brother.
>>
>>
>>
>> Love & Blessings,
>>
>>
>>
>> Betty/Elisheva
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
>> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf
>> Of youngbarzel at aol.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey Dick -
>>
>> How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it
>> really makes me happy to be
>> here! Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an
>> interesting one.
>> Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority
>> on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
>> I'm barely an amateur! And I'm certainly not a role
>> model if someone is
>> looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
>>
>> Having said that, if referring to the G-d of
>> Yeshua is done in the same
>> context as the G-d of any other Jew of history
>> (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
>> King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
>>
>>
>> Ross makes it very clear on the website that
>> Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
>> Abraham; the same G-d we pray to. You DO realize
>> that some Rabbi in
>> Israel is going to hang me one day for having
>> written that, right? LOL
>> Only kidding...... :-)
>>
>> Best regards Dick!
>> Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
>> Hanoch
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dick L 
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>>
>> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
>>
>> Just a question I have had in my mind for some
>> time. Do you think it
>> would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers
>> to use in there prayers,
>> "God of YeShua".
>>
>> Same God I believe. He prayed "to the God of
>> Israel" " not as God".
>>
>> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>>
>>
>>
>> Shalom to all,
>>
>> With events that will effect our beloved Eretz
>> Yisrael unfolding as I
>> write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need
>> to be part of a
>> "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -
>> all it needs to be is
>> you, and HaShem, our Creator. If this comes across
>> as disjointed, I
>> apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not
>> from 'my head' It
>> seems I've been doing that a lot lately,
>> sighhhh......
>>
>> In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if
>> I was "..ready to
>> pray.." and it left me thinking about part of the
>> Yom Kippur liturgy. As
>> we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually
>> chronicling our
>> shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en
>> melitz yosher..." which
>> is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer
>> book) as, "..we have no
>> advocate.." In other words, there is no one that
>> will speak to HaShem on
>> our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else
>> for us to count on....
>> EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father,
>> Our King.
>>
>> The central prayer in the three daily prayer
>> services in Judaism is the
>> 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -
>> the 18 Blessings (or
>> benedictions). The first two sentences are the
>> following (transliterated
>> Hebrew, then English): "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu.
>> Elohei Avraham, Elohei
>> Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov." The translation is
>> simple, the meaning behind
>> it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d
>> of our Fathers. G-d of
>> Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
>>
>>
>>
>> The obvious question is - why the redundancy?
>> After all, the G-d of
>> Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob)
>> is the SAME G-d....why
>> does it describe it in THAT manner? And here's what
>> I learned, many, many
>> years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
>>
>> HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each
>> of our Avot (fathers, or
>> forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they
>> each had their own,
>> distinct relationship with HIM. Yes, it was the
>> SAME G-d (obviously..), but
>> Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship
>> with him then did Avraham,
>> or each other, for that matter.
>>
>> So it's up to you and me, to form our own
>> relationship(s) with HaShem,
>> to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on
>> behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
>> We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or
>> spokesperson that will step up
>> for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.
>> Who knows which of us may
>> be the one that can cause the effect to save us from
>> the evil decrees??
>>
>> We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail
>> now, when so much is at
>> stake. You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday
>> night), as I've blessed my
>> daughters, I have added the following to the
>> traditional brachot
>> (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our
>> Torah,
> === message truncated ===>
> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
>
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________

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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Thu Nov 29 20:15:41 2007
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:15:41 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
References: <113020070052.12580.474F5ED800087A260000312422230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<2D95E16B-FBE6-4353-88A3-71262E07EAED@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00ef01c832f6$e851fcd0$6400a8c0@davesbook>

UIWU is all about seeking "the truth" with all seekers.   And like James 
says  "we ALL  qualify".......until we don't.


never stop
dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Tabor" <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting


> Hey everyone, I had to smile at this a bit as Rick also wrote me "off 
> list" and asked if he would be welcome to attend the UIWU meeting. I 
> guess you guys need to ask your "Teacher" Ross, or John & David who  came 
> last year, what is UIWU all about??  It is not James Tabor and  his view 
> on this or that, but something much more fundamental,  established by the 
> late but beloved David Horowitz back in 1944 in the  dark days of WW II
>
> EVERYONE is invited and welcome to attend UIWU.  We have no dogmas, no 
> creeds, if you take a look you can see from even what Ross has on his  Web 
> site that all you guys totally qualify:
>
> http://rootsoffaith.org/uiwu_page.htm
>
> This was the wonderful Wisdom of our founder to make thing so open and 
> undogmatic. UIWU is not a church or a religion, but an educational 
> movement dedicated to bringing the Hebraic faith to all nations, but  in 
> particular to the "lost tribes."  Please come...We are going to  have a 
> wonderful time, with a pretty big group planned this year that  will 
> require us to get another facility...For years we had been  meeting in a 
> hotel that only held about 50. Simcha Jacobovici is going  to come in from 
> Israel, also John Hulley I hope, and others, including  the illustrious 
> Hanoch Young (and I know his REAL name!) I hope, and  others from NY and 
> all over...
>
> We had set the dates as the weekend of April 11-13 but I need to  confirm 
> things with Smicha so there is a possibility that it might be  April 4-6. 
> I will let you all know soon.
>
> James Tabor
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:52 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>> May Rhonda and I attend as well?
>> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> 




From tsbcroley at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 29 20:40:24 2007
From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:40:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] THE saga..Part III (pardon the length)
In-Reply-To: <8CA00DC385E8758-DD8-D70@FWM-D42.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <315486.49183.qm@web57110.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Good Evening Hanoch,
     I can hardly wait to check my emails...........anxious to see if you have posted the next part of the saga.  Looking forward to the next installment!!!!
Your Friend in Alabama,
           Tammy


youngbarzel at aol.com wrote:  So, here's little 18 year old militant Hanoch, training with weapons, preparing to lead the battle to save Jews (anywhere in the world), along with his other Betar/JDL friends, all with the same mindset.  It was at this juncture that I began taking JUDAISM seriously, not merely "Jewish Activism", or "Jewish Militancy" (neither of those terms describe what we were about - we were practically wackos, prepared to do whatever it took to help Jews.  And I mean WHATEVER.  Several friends went to prison for transporting explosives over State lines, setting off pipe bombs (against the Soviets, Egyptians, you name it), and firing bullets through the door of the Soviet residence in the Bronx.  It DID lead to a great chant though during demonstrations - "1, 2, 3, 4, four more bullets through your door....5,6,7,8 let my people emigrate!"  :-) 
 
 Other actions against the Russians involved standing in front of the Soviet consulate in Manhattan (New York's got EVERYTHING - you've got to love it!) and harassing Soviet diplomats and their families.  Our view - if Jews were harassed in the Soviet Union, then Soviets would experience the same thing in NYC!  We followed these people (the cops kept us at a distance) screaming the most vile obscenities in Russian that we were able to learn.  We weren't going to let them be comfortable if Jews were suffering in their country....
 
 I began putting on tefilin in the morning, and observing Shabbat.  Since my folks didn't keep a kosher home, I put a cabinet in the kitchen with my own plates, pans and silverware.  I already knew how to read Hebrew and had picked up a few words in Israel, too, and had a background that had a bit of a "Jewish flavor" - for lack of a better term.  After more then a year of that, my mom (Of Blessed Memory), who I miss every single day of my life....made the entire kitchen Kosher while I was in Israel.  My mom was the rock of my life....she was fiercely proud of what I did, although she was scared when I went out to demonstrations, and of course, when I headed to the Soviet Union.
 
 There wasn't a book on a Jewish topic that I didn't try to get my hands on (and in NYC, trust me - there are a LOT!), and read voraciously.  Particularly Jewish history, and anything to do with Israel.  My knowledge grew, and I began studying Tanach (the complete Hebrew Bible), although in English, without the numerous Rabbinic commentaries, which would have illuminated it for me.....I wound up doing it the hard way.  I began soaking it all in like a sponge.  
 
 In Betar, meanwhile, we were always planning the next 'action.' most of which is best not described in email format  :-)  However, in March of 1975, we did one of the coolest things I ever did (and still have the New York Times clipping from it! )  Syria was harshly oppressing the 5,000 Jews left in that country, and we needed to do something.....  At the time, Pan Am was the only American airline flying to Syria.  SO, we warned them to stop flying there, and then....took action.
 
 On the day before Passover (1975), we launched our own '10 Plagues Against Pan Am!'  We went to their central offices, near 42nd Street Grand Central Station, and STRUCK!!  We threw boxes and boxes full of live grasshoppers (we couldn't order locusts by mail..), white mice, roaches (a New York specialty!) and splattered their windows and floors with animal blood (that was my particular contribution!).  It made enormous press do to the clever connection with the Passover holiday, and the fact that it was totally non-violent (in the early 70's a JDL action using smoke bombs caused a person to die, in what should have been a harmless event).
 
 But Betar wasn't doing quite enough, and I wanted to learn more Torah too - so I turned to JDL, and Rav Meir Kahane.  JDL was going to run a special leadership training program in Israel that summer (it's now 1976....Hanoch is now 19.5 years old, and has all the answers to what's ailing the Jewish people....), 7 intensive weeks directly with Rav Kahane himself - learning Jewish sources, how to speak in public (he was one of the greatest public speakers in history), how to organize demonstrations, you name it!  It was only going to be a select group of 8 chosen nationally.  I not only 'made the cut,' but was chosen to be the 'group leader.'  I've often wondered about that term, 'group leader,' it made me feel like I was a fighter pilot leading a squadron into action, during the Battle of Britian....But I'm skipping ahead...let's go back to '75......
 
 My average in college plummeted, as I cut classes to go to demonstrations, make phone calls, distribute fliers.  I was TOTALLY dedicated to the cause, and actually remember times when I passed up walking a young woman home ("my parents are at work, you know..."), so I could go into the Betar (later, JDL) office to do work for 'the cause'.  Sighhhhhhhh.....Yes, there ARE indeed regrets....   :-)  Nothing interfered with the ideological 'work' - nothing came before the cause.  No matter HOW pretty she was.......
 
 If you read the classic Eric Hoffer book, The True Believer you will know exactly how I felt.  I went to Israel with two friends in the Summer of '75, working on a Moshav (semi-cooperative set up).  We went to Moshav Nordiya, outside of Netanya.  This was a moshav formed by veterans of the two pre-State of Israel, Jewish underground movements - The Irgun Tzvai Leumi (The 'Irgun' - the National Military Organization) and the Lechi (Lohamei Herut Yisrael - Fighters for the Freedom of Israel).  They had an imposing memorial in the center of their grounds, dedicated to those fighters who the British military occupiers sentenced to death, and hung.....
 
 There are a million stories from those three months, but the key point was that I was involved over that summer with everything BUT learning Torah.  This I came to realize was a terrible, terrible mistake - but it wasn't until I was back in New York that I began to understand that.  It was from that moment on, that I intensified my commitment to learning and LIVING Judaism (still trying, BTW...)
 
 We're now in the winter of '76, and we in Betar were convinced we have to do something to help save Soviet Jews.  That February, all the 'establishment' Jewish organizations were going to have a (USELESS) conference in Brussels, and we picked that time to act....  There was a Doctor, by the name of Mikhail Shtern, who had tried to emigrate to Israel, but was imprisoned, and mistreated and was in poor health.  It was on behalf of Dr. Shtern that we acted.....it's always easier to focus on one person, then on 3 million....
 
 Seven of us flew to Moscow (with a plane change in Warsaw, of all places)....and planned to stage a sit-in at the Soviet Ministry of Health, which we did the third day that we were there.  While we did, two of our friends disrupted the Brussels conference, throwing fliers in the air as they were tackled by the Belgium security. They began publicizing our simultaneous sit in in Moscow....That same day (allowing for the time difference), 12 other Betarim (the plural of the singular, 'Betari', for those of you taking Ross' Hebrew classes) took over the New York offices of Tass, the Soviet news agency in the U.S.   We raised hell in three countries!!!!!!  All to publicize the situation of Dr. Shtern, and all of Soviet Jewry.
 
 We were taken away by the Soviet 'militia' - who were among the biggest, toughest looking and UGLY men I've ever seen.  Our tourists visas were canceled (BIG shock there, right?) and we were taken to the airport and put on a flight to London.  I'm simplifying it now, but it was scary...we had offered ourselves in place of Dr. Shtern to serve out the remaining 7 years of his prison sentence in Siberia.  We were determined to be 100% serious about that offer, BTW...at 18 years old, you aren't afraid of anything..... One day, maybe I'll tell you all that happened there, but it was scary....Only a non-worldly kid could have done what we did.  I have pictures of me in Red Square...very weird to look at those now....
 
  Wow...am I only on Part III still??  Sorry guys, but this is where it really starts to get interesting, where I really began learning an enormous amount of Torah, Where I met Rav Kahane, where I made the two biggest mistakes in my life, how I stumbled upon the UIWU, and of course, my pride and joy - my two amazing daughters.  And of course - what this all means for you guys!  :-)
 
              Hanoch
  
---------------------------------
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 _______________________________________________

 

  
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."  
                                                            Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2

       
---------------------------------
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 29 19:52:47 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:52:47 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU Charter: 1944
Message-ID: <53542468-5C53-41FA-BE7F-297560046E29@earthlink.net>



United Israel World Union, INC.

Excerpts from the Constitutions and By-Laws of United Israel World  
Union, Inc.
ARTICLE I. Name, Standard and Greeting

Section 1. The name of the Association shall be UNITED ISRAEL WORLD  
UNION, INC.

Section 2. The Standard of UNITED ISRAEL WORLD UNION, INC. shall be:  
"My House shall be called a House of Pray for all Peoples."

Section 3. The official greeting of UNITED ISRAEL WORLD UNION, INC.  
is: Shalom, namely, Peace.

ARTICLE II. Places of Activities

Section 1. The activities of UNITED ISRAEL WORLD UNION, INC. will be  
conducted principally in the State of New York, but also in all other  
States of the United States of America and in foreign countries.

ARTICLE III. Objects and Purposes

Section 1. The objects and purposes of UNITED ISRAEL WORLD UNION, INC.  
are: To reawaken the lost tribes of Israel to consciousness of their  
true identity; to bring this about by means of conveying to them true  
knowledge of the Bible and of history, particularly by publications  
dealing with the identity of Israel; to unite the lost tribes (i.e.  
people of Anglo-Saxon-Celtic, American and kindred origin) with Judah,  
by means of inculcating original Biblical truths, through publications  
and lectures; to facilitate the return of all Israel to the God of  
their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of  
Jacob, and to His republic as founded by Moses; and above all, to work  
and strive for that glorious peace, the plans for which are laid down  
in the writings containing the Blueprint of God's ordained world  
order; The Bible; to establish places of devotion and spiritual  
guidance for its members; to appoint and install the necessary  
teachers for the various Units of UNITED ISRAEL WORLD UNION, INC.

Section 2. UNITED ISRAEL WORLD UNION, INC. further proposes on the  
basis of the Biblical injunction; "My House shall be called a House of  
Prayer for all Peoples," and further on the basis of the words:  
"Whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered," to  
be as universal in creed and outlook as the Bible itself is: wherefore  
UNITED ISRAEL WORLD UNION, INC., will function as a non-political, non- 
denominational, non-sectarian, non-profit, religious membership  
corporation.

Section 3. UNITED ISRAEL WORLD UNION, INC. intends to publish a  
monthly bulletin, which is to serve as the main organ of the  
corporation and the chief medium of unification for all members and  
units of UNITED ISRAEL WORLD UNION, INC. It will contain important  
Bible data and messages of current interest.

ARTICLE IV. Membership

Section 1. Any person who recognizes and accepts the original Bible of  
Jehovah, The Father, The Creator, as the basis for his or her daily  
conduct of life, acknowledging further the laws of Moses, as  
instituted at Mount Sinai, as a foundation, may become a Brother or  
Sister in UNITED ISRAEL WORLD UNION, INC.

Section 2. Membership is open to all, irrespective of color, race or  
creed, who accept the creed of UNITED ISRAEL WORLD UNION, INC. as set  
forth in these By-Laws.

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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu Nov 29 21:41:02 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:41:02 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
Message-ID: <c6b.1f11cad8.3480e04e@aol.com>

Shalom James, 
 
    You flatter me WAY too much....I am really touched by what you've said, 
it means a whole lot to me, certainly more then you even realize.  I don't 
believe I can take any credit for this "crossover" phenomenon, to this list 
though.  I had thought of cross posting things to the UI list, but after a few 
times, I haven't.  Certainly this saga I'm relating, I have not.  Are the UI people 
on this list?  I've seen a few pals, but don't know if everyone is included.  
Is there a list of who's included.  And, what would the UI list be used for, 
now?
 
    James, I am really moved by the kind things you have written, and yes, I 
do, desperately care for my long-lost cousins....there are many times I've 
tried to 'walk away' from this "Lost Tribes thing" (as some friends and family 
members have called it), but never can...I'm always drawn back; and no, I can't 
explain why...No matter what's going on in life, I'm always drawn back in.  
 
    It's sweet that you've posted that photo, although I think it's the 
single least flattering photo of me that I've seen in years!  Or maybe, I just WAS 
that fat!!
 
   You know, I've never been sure that I have anything to teach, or even much 
to share - but I've always wanted people to know that there was at least one 
from Judah that was there.... at least one.
 
   Thank you for welcoming me, and especially, thank you for welcoming me 
back....
 
    May HaShem bless you in all that you do.  And hey, let's talk some time, 
okay?
 
    B'Ahava,
            Hanoch



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 29 22:01:13 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:01:13 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch's Picture
Message-ID: <BAY115-W356CA2CE21FCE138AA3DFFBA710@phx.gbl>


Y'all did it again!  I came in tonight and my emails are overflowing! This is wonderful!  
 
Hanoch, I love Part II, and I think the photo James sent of everyone grabbing your tzittzit should be put in ROF's Names and Faces.  It's just a terrific picture, and it says it all!!!!!
 
Hope I get surprised like this every night!
 
Love,
 
Pat  
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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu Nov 29 22:15:21 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:15:21 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch's Picture
Message-ID: <d1c.19becb2d.3480e859@aol.com>

Pat, you are way too sweet!!!!  Although I'd much rather send you a better 
pic...I think I look like Jabba the Hut in that one....(any Star Wars fans out 
there??)
 
I have a few more installments to go, and have tons of provocative Torah 
thoughts, websites, questions, thoughts and opinions that I would LOVE to share 
with everyone here.  I really love the chance to be part of this wonderful group 
- you have no idea what it means to me at this particular time of my life to 
be able to do this.  
 
Thank you Ross, thank you James, and thank you to everyone that I've gotten 
to know, and am now getting to know!
 
Really loving being with you,
        Hanoch



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 29 22:19:11 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:19:11 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
In-Reply-To: <c6b.1f11cad8.3480e04e@aol.com>
References: <c6b.1f11cad8.3480e04e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6A0D38D4-C965-4164-A217-26273F5E7333@earthlink.net>

Well, I think we all look pretty bad in that photo...oh well. At least  
we look happy.

I will write something this weekend to clarify the ways in which Ross  
and I see the purposes of the two lists, the ROF Dialogue list and the  
older UI List, which we are actually going to migrate to the  
unitedisrael.org Web site soon. The main difference is that the the  
newer ROF Dialogue list is public. Anyone can join. It is openly  
announced on the Web and it is a monitored list, potentially at least.  
The UI list is more a group of personal friends who have talked about  
anything and everything over the years. If it is okay with you I will  
post your "story" to the UI list. I think Ross invited everyone on the  
UI list to join if they wish so many did but he made clear in his  
initial message that the ROF Dialogue list would serve much more to  
communicate to Christians who are seeking the Ancient Paths but find  
themselves at various points along the way, with lots of potential  
discussion of N.T. things. More later, but keep writing...you have us  
all listening.

James


On Nov 29, 2007, at 10:41 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:

> Shalom James,
>
>     You flatter me WAY too much....I am really touched by what  
> you've said, it means a whole lot to me, certainly more then you  
> even realize.  I don't believe I can take any credit for this  
> "crossover" phenomenon, to this list though.  I had thought of cross  
> posting things to the UI list, but after a few times, I haven't.   
> Certainly this saga I'm relating, I have not.  Are the UI people on  
> this list?  I've seen a few pals, but don't know if everyone is  
> included.  Is there a list of who's included.  And, what would the  
> UI list be used for, now?
>
>     James, I am really moved by the kind things you have written,  
> and yes, I do, desperately care for my long-lost cousins....there  
> are many times I've tried to 'walk away' from this "Lost Tribes  
> thing" (as some friends and family members have called it), but  
> never can...I'm always drawn back; and no, I can't explain why...No  
> matter what's going on in life, I'm always drawn back in.
>
>     It's sweet that you've posted that photo, although I think it's  
> the single least flattering photo of me that I've seen in years!  Or  
> maybe, I just WAS that fat!!
>
>    You know, I've never been sure that I have anything to teach, or  
> even much to share - but I've always wanted people to know that  
> there was at least one from Judah that was there.... at least one.
>
>    Thank you for welcoming me, and especially, thank you for  
> welcoming me back....
>
>     May HaShem bless you in all that you do.  And hey, let's talk  
> some time, okay?
>
>     B'Ahava,
>             Hanoch
>
>
>
> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top  
> money wasters of 2007.
> _______________________________________________

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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Thu Nov 29 22:20:58 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:20:58 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5669@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

I'm there if G-d is willing.

"Be excellent to each other"
               Bill & Ted

John C.
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thu Nov 29 18:41:07 2007
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting

Hey you guys, and everyone else.  I have an idea.  You can ALL meet one another quite soon, at the UIWU April meeting!  Details to come but some very exciting things. 

James


On Nov 26, 2007, at 12:37 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:


	Shalom John,
	 
	    Thank you so much for your note, you have no idea what a 'shot in the arm' it was for me.  It's funny, although I've yet to have the pleasure of meeting you, I feel like we're old pals - must be that Brooklyn connection, huh?  :-)  
	 
	     You know, I never doubt that HaShem has a plan for me, and that those things that seem difficult, or enormous obstacles now, all have a role to play for the future.  However, it's getting through the present - those very tough times, when everything seems to be going wrong, and every decision you make, you come to quickly regret, THAT's the tough part.  The toughest part, actually...
	
	     It's a true gift from HaShem to be satisfied with one's 'lot in life,' to be able to be grateful for those friends and family members who can bring such joy to your lives.  That's one side of it...on the other side, are the 'would've, should've and could've' elements that drive you crazy!  That's where my mind has been hanging out lately....Every mistake I've made, every poor choice, and the ramifications of all of them....
	
	     But you're right John, it's great to have such caring individuals here, in this "synagogue without walls;" which is actually the FRIENDLIEST synagogue I've ever been a part of!!!   :-)  :-) 
	HaShem will bring you, me, and all of us who need him though these tough times.  HE will comfort us, Help us heal from our losses, and restore calm to us all, even when there seems to be 'no way out.'   
	
	   Thanks for welcoming me (back), and reaching out, you are a real 'bro' - in all the deepest meanings of the term.  And it's great to be back in what you've called, the 'fray.'  No matter how much any of us are hurting, we have a great cause that we must continue battling for.  These are truly the "end of days..." when the forces of evil in the world are standing against HaShem, HIS land and HIS people, how can we not rise to the occasion?!?!  
	
	   May we all draw strength from HaShem, and from each other....thanks for reaching out, pal - you've truly brightened what has been a horrible couple of days.  I'll try to post as often as I can....this may be my only sanity check!  LOL
	
	    B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel),
	            Hanoch
	
	             
	
	
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41 am
	Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
	
	
	Hey Hanoch,
	 
	I've been reading along for the last couple of days.  I know I don't have a clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last year or so other than some of your work trials.  But I can honestly say that my world has been completely turned on it;s ear over the last year as well.  Loss of family and friends, emotional upheavals, major career changes, it's a lot to deal with.  I don't know if my troubles have been anything close to yours but I can say that HaShem is bringing me through it all with more hope and clarity than I could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt in my mind He will do the same for you.  It is good to have so many here to support each other.
	 
	It is also good to see you back in the fray.
	 
	As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and real way for us to make a difference.  Count me in.
	 
	Your brother from Brooklyn,
	 
	Shalom.
	--
	John C. 
	
	"Be excellent to each other!" 
	Bill and Ted 
	


		-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 
		
		
		Shalom to all - 
		 
		    The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over Israel's borders.  With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.  Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....
		 
		    For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our nation.  Please check it out, and spread the word...
		            Hanoch
		Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot & Cold Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! <http://pizzaidf.org/>  



		________________________________

		Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products <http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001>  and top money wasters <http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop00030000000002>  of 2007.

	_______________________________________________
	
________________________________

	Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000970> !
	
	_______________________________________________
	


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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Thu Nov 29 22:20:57 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:20:57 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5668@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Excellent idea Ross.

"Be excellent to each other"
               Bill & Ted

John C.
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thu Nov 29 19:40:49 2007
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting

All,

I want to encourage everyone on this list to begin making plans now to attend the UIWU meeting in Charlotte this coming April.  I have attended this conference for several years now and can tell you that this gathering is certainly one of the high points of my year. It is always exciting to meet others who are interested in the Bible and this conference is always attended by just such a crowd.
 
The torah says that this is one of the things we should spend our tithes on....going to the feasts and this conference is typically around Passover. 
 
I am looking forward to this. Besides James Tabor, we also expect Simcha Jacobavichi to be in attendance. Of course there are many others that attend and I would be willing to bet that there are few conferences today that have the collective knowledge of the Bible as this one has year after year.
 
We really may look at chartering a bus and bringing the whole Roots of Faith gang this year.
 
Let's discuss!  Shalom, Ross


-----Original Message-----
From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 6:41 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting


Hey you guys, and everyone else.  I have an idea.  You can ALL meet one another quite soon, at the UIWU April meeting!  Details to come but some very exciting things.  

James


On Nov 26, 2007, at 12:37 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:


	Shalom John,
	 
	    Thank you so much for your note, you have no idea what a 'shot in the arm' it was for me.  It's funny, although I've yet to have the pleasure of meeting you, I feel like we're old pals - must be that Brooklyn connection, huh?  :-)  
	 
	     You know, I never doubt that HaShem has a plan for me, and that those things that seem difficult, or enormous obstacles now, all have a role to play for the future.  However, it's getting through the present - those very tough times, when everything seems to be going wrong, and every decision you make, you come to quickly regret, THAT's the tough part.  The toughest part, actually...
	
	     It's a true gift from HaShem to be satisfied with one's 'lot in life,' to be able to be grateful for those friends and family members who can bring such joy to your lives.  That's one side of it...on the other side, are the 'would've, should've and could've' elements that drive you crazy!  That's where my mind has been hanging out lately....Every mistake I've made, every poor choice, and the ramifications of all of them....
	
	     But you're right John, it's great to have such caring individuals here, in this "synagogue without walls;" which is actually the FRIENDLIEST synagogue I've ever been a part of!!!   :-)  :-) 
	HaShem will bring you, me, and all of us who need him though these tough times.  HE will comfort us, Help us heal from our losses, and restore calm to us all, even when there seems to be 'no way out.'   
	
	   Thanks for welcoming me (back), and reaching out, you are a real 'bro' - in all the deepest meanings of the term.  And it's great to be back in what you've called, the 'fray.'  No matter how much any of us are hurting, we have a great cause that we must continue battling for.  These are truly the "end of days..." when the forces of evil in the world are standing against HaShem, HIS land and HIS people, how can we not rise to the occasion?!?!  
	
	   May we all draw strength from HaShem, and from each other....thanks for reaching out, pal - you've truly brightened what has been a horrible couple of days.  I'll try to post as often as I can....this may be my only sanity check!  LOL
	
	    B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel),
	            Hanoch
	
	             
	
	
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
	To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
	Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41 am
	Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers
	
	
	Hey Hanoch,
	 
	I've been reading along for the last couple of days.  I know I don't have a clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last year or so other than some of your work trials.  But I can honestly say that my world has been completely turned on it;s ear over the last year as well.  Loss of family and friends, emotional upheavals, major career changes, it's a lot to deal with.  I don't know if my troubles have been anything close to yours but I can say that HaShem is bringing me through it all with more hope and clarity than I could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt in my mind He will do the same for you.  It is good to have so many here to support each other.
	 
	It is also good to see you back in the fray.
	 
	As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and real way for us to make a difference.  Count me in.
	 
	Your brother from Brooklyn,
	 
	Shalom.
	--
	John C. 
	
	"Be excellent to each other!" 
	Bill and Ted 
	


		-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 
		
		
		Shalom to all - 
		 
		    The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over Israel's borders.  With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.  Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....
		 
		    For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our nation.  Please check it out, and spread the word...
		            Hanoch
		Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot & Cold Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! <http://pizzaidf.org/>  



		________________________________

		Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products <http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001>  and top money wasters <http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop00030000000002>  of 2007.

	_______________________________________________
	
________________________________

	Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000970> !
	
	_______________________________________________
	


= 
_______________________________________________

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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Thu Nov 29 22:20:57 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:20:57 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5667@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Hey Denny,

I know what you are feeling and I'm still struggling with those questions myself.  I can only offer you a description of where I currently am.  I know some on this dialogue will not agree with me on some of what I have to say but that's okay, that's why it's a dialogue.

First I will flatly say that I have given up on the church as I have known it, I believe it bears little resemblance to the Church Yeshua spoke about.  I have not given up on Yeshua or my brothers and sisters however.

Second, I believe that as a whole the Bible is the inspired work of G-d.  Everything in it must be understood within the context of G-d's central thought which is the Torah.  I have come to believe that the Gospels cannot be fully understood without a deep understanding of the Torah.  I also believe that the accepted Canon is incomplete.

Third, I believe the the Christian church as we know it has focused on the wrong "good news".  To me at this time, the issue of the trinity is irrelevant.  The real good news is what Yeshua taught during his ministry.  His death and ressurection were the unavoidable result of that ministry.  I believe he is the Melech HaMoshiach (king messiah) but I am not certain that I have found an acceptable understanding of what the Melech HaMoshiach is, even in Rabbinical writings.  So I am resigned to focus on understanding his life and his message in the framework of the Torah, of the rest I will just have to say I am simply ignorant until I learn more.

'Nuff for now.  That's the kernal of my position for what it's worth.

"Be excellent to each other"
               Bill & Ted

John C.
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thu Nov 29 17:12:05 2007
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

Hello all,

It has been awhile since I have interjected any comments. We have been busy with family things as you know. This sabbath will be difficult to listen again as we will have 8 grandchildren in our care until parents get home. ;-)

I have been reading the discussions and don't feel as I have much to contribute at this time. I have more questions that anything else.
James' book THE JESUS DYNASTY has me occupied at the moment. 

A couple questions come to mind that I would like to put out for your thoughts and response.

At this time in my journey, I have lost a lot of confidence in Christianity. I feel, as Ross has described, like I have been lied to.
Now I am wondering about the trustworthiness of our New Testament Canon. Can these scriptures be trusted? I read in the dialogues about Jesus having a grave possibly. That Yeshua came to show us how to LIVE Torah. Other than that, I really haven't heard much about Yeshua and the sacrifice of his life. The apostolic writings and Shaul in particular says that if Yeshua didn't raise from the dead then our faith is in vain. What do you all think of these things? Is the New Testament  (as we call it) accurate and reliable?

Shalom,
Denny




Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play.

 
On Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 04:56PM, "Ronnie Fulcher" <ronniefulcher at yahoo.com> wrote:
>There is a grave at Safat that many contribute to
>Yeshua. I belive that the same town is the root of
>Kabbalah.
>
>Ronnie
>--- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a
>> lot of "hanging going on!"
>> For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a
>> love and appreciation
>> for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed
>> to the G-d of Abraham,
>> Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more
>> often associated with
>> Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should
>> not negate the fact that
>> he was an observant Jew.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow
>> under the impression that
>> according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in
>> Israel (I have forgotten
>> the location) where there is a gravesite attributed
>> to Yeshua and that his
>> grave, among others, is one that has been visited
>> and venerated by pious
>> rabbis down thru the ages???  I really don't think I
>> dreamed this. I thought
>> you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we
>> might need to check with my
>> brother. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Love & Blessings,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Betty/Elisheva 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>   _____  
>> 
>> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
>> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf
>> Of youngbarzel at aol.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hey Dick - 
>> 
>>    How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it
>> really makes me happy to be
>> here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an
>> interesting one.
>> Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority
>> on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
>> I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role
>> model if someone is
>> looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
>> 
>>    Having said that, if referring to the G-d of
>> Yeshua is done in the same
>> context as the G-d of any other Jew of history
>> (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
>> King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
>>  
>> 
>>    Ross makes it very clear on the website that
>> Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
>> Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize
>> that some Rabbi in
>> Israel is going to hang me one day for having
>> written that, right?   LOL
>> Only kidding......   :-)  
>>  
>>    Best regards Dick!
>>        Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
>>                      Hanoch
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>> 
>> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
>> 
>>       Just a question I have had in my mind for some
>> time.  Do you think it
>> would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers
>> to use in there prayers,
>> "God of YeShua".
>> 
>>    Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of
>> Israel"  " not as God".
>> 
>> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Shalom to all, 
>> 
>>      With events that will effect our beloved Eretz
>> Yisrael unfolding as I
>> write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need
>> to be part of a
>> "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -
>> all it needs to be is
>> you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across
>> as disjointed, I
>> apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not
>> from 'my head'  It
>> seems I've been doing that a lot lately,
>> sighhhh......
>> 
>>       In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if
>> I was "..ready to
>> pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the
>> Yom Kippur liturgy.  As
>> we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually
>> chronicling our
>> shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en
>> melitz yosher..." which
>> is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer
>> book) as, "..we have no
>> advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that
>> will speak to HaShem on
>> our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else
>> for us to count on....
>> EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father,
>> Our King.  
>> 
>>      The central prayer in the three daily prayer
>> services in Judaism is the
>> 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -
>> the 18 Blessings (or
>> benedictions).  The first two sentences are the
>> following (transliterated
>> Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu.
>> Elohei Avraham, Elohei
>> Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is
>> simple, the meaning behind
>> it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d
>> of our Fathers. G-d of
>> Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>      The obvious question is - why the redundancy? 
>> After all, the G-d of
>> Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob)
>> is the SAME G-d....why
>> does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what
>> I learned, many, many
>> years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
>> 
>>     HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each
>> of our Avot (fathers, or
>> forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they
>> each had their own,
>> distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the
>> SAME G-d (obviously..), but
>> Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship
>> with him then did Avraham,
>> or each other, for that matter.  
>> 
>>      So it's up to you and me, to form our own
>> relationship(s) with HaShem,
>> to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on
>> behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
>> We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or
>> spokesperson that will step up
>> for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can. 
>> Who knows which of us may
>> be the one that can cause the effect to save us from
>> the evil decrees??
>> 
>>     We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail
>> now, when so much is at
>> stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday
>> night), as I've blessed my
>> daughters, I have added the following to the
>> traditional brachot
>> (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our
>> Torah, 
>=== message truncated ===>
>_______________________________________________
>> 
>
>
>
>      ____________________________________________________________________________________
>Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_______________________________________________
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 29 22:31:45 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:31:45 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Letter to world leaders (response to ROF bulletin)
In-Reply-To: <20071129155232.DS2JI.53294.root@fepweb11>
References: <fa126c6939290d25cda2a0c839cb20d8@www.imsclients.com>
	<20071129155232.DS2JI.53294.root@fepweb11>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W379509879D2A72B5FE1140BA710@phx.gbl>


Great idea, Kim!> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:52:32 -0800> From: kim.alvarado at charter.net> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: [Dialogue] Letter to world leaders (response to ROF bulletin)> > Ross,> > Why don't we attempt to get this message to world leaders. Email is fast and free. The Temple Institute has some email addresses. I can compile a list. Never know, one might actually be read... I have written letters and I'm sure many in the group have as well, but the passages you mention below should be included in our correspondence as well as points you brought up in the letter you sent out to all of us. > > Kim> ---- Roots of Faith <bulletin at rootsoffaith.org> wrote: > > =============> Shalom to all!> > > > This week I have been flooded with insights while preparing my lesson.> I simply can't wait until this Saturday morning's class. We are living> in exciting times. This week, while leaders from all over the world> convened in Annapolis, Maryland to discuss among other things, the> future of Jerusalem, I have been busy studying what God's word has to> say about it.> > > > You shouldn't be surprised to find out that there is a great difference> between what various political leaders have in mind and what God sets> forth in the Bible through His prophets.> > > > You may however be surprised to learn that the ancient Triennial cycle> reading from the Law and the Prophets to be read this Saturday, speaks> directly about this subject. > > > > In this week's Torah reading (Genesis 12 and 13) as well as the> Prophets reading (Joshua 24) we read very clearly that God gave the> land of Israel to Abram and his seed, specifically through Isaac and> Jacob.> > > > In my estimation, the return of the Jewish people to the land promised> to the patriarchs in our day, is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.> This return of Israel to the "promised land" is perhaps the most> prominent theme in the Hebrew Prophets, mentioned in over 40 major> sections of the texts. As I have pointed out before, God's restoration> of Israel to the promised land is the one thing that He will do with> "all His heart and all His soul" - Jeremiah 32:41.> > > > One should take note that God calls this small and highly contested> land - "my land" in Joel 3:2. Jews, Christians and Moslems all lay> claim to it in all or in part, but this week's class will make clear> that the "title / deed" was promised by God to a single family -> Israel!> > > > It is commonly referred to today as the "Holy Land". (See Zechariah> 2:13 for the one time in the Bible where this name is used to refer to> "the Land" of Israel). > > > > In my studies this week I found one passage to be most incredible.> Popular translations don't do justice to this passage and so I have> translated it myself in order to render it more closely to the original> Hebrew. It may seem awkward in English, but this literal rendering is> much better I think. In Deuteronomy 11:12 we find that this land is;> > > > "a land which the LORD your God searches her continually: the eyes of> the LORD are on her, from the beginning of the year and until the end> of the year." > > > > Think about that! Can you imagine God searching this land continually> throughout the year with His eyes? The image I get is of a guard> looking up and down this strip of land from a strategic viewpoint!> > > > Don't think for one minute that this subject is not of extreme> importance for a proper understanding of the Biblical revelation. I> only wish that I could get this message to those world leaders,> participating in the current "peace talks" who claim this Hebraic> heritage as their own. Surely at some point, sitting in church or> synagogue, they have heard this message in some form. I would> especially like to call their attention to what the prophet Joel had to> say about the subject that they now consider.> > > > In the third chapter of Joel we read:> > > > KJV Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall> bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather> all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat,> and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage> Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my> land.> > > > The word translated here as "parted" is the Hebrew word chalaq. It> means to divide or apportion! That the very judgment of all nations is> brought about because the nations "scattered Israel" and "Parted MY> land" is reason to give pause when considering what is going on "in the> news". > > > > There will be a handout of maps for this Saturday's class. I will have> copies for those that attend, and will have a link to a pdf of the> document on the main page of my website by Saturday morning so that> those listening in can see this land as viewed from heaven. I would> also encourage you to look at the maps in your Bible this week. Most> good study Bibles have maps. The best maps, in my opinion, are those> published by Oxford.> > > > You will not want to miss this week's class - The Holy Land - God's> gift to Israel> > > > The Gates with Joseph Good> > > > For those that are interested, the 2nd of 4 classes on the "Return of> Israel" in which I appear with Joe Good, has been published on the> Universal Torah Network's website. A link to the shows appears on my> website. In these classes, Joe and I discuss this topic extensively.> > > > A New Look for the Website> > > > I encourage you to check out the website if you have not done so in a> while. It has a brand new look! It is also gaining popularity.> Yesterday we broke a record for highest number of visits in one day (at> 761). We are averaging well over 500 visits per day from all over the> world. I am excited about all that is going on and am pleased that so> many are finding our teachings and music to be inspirational to them as> they seek the Roots of their Faith!> > > > Don't forget to listen in live on Saturday morning at 10 AM CST. Go to> my website (www.RootsofFaith.org) and click on the Listen Live link and> you will find everything that you need to know to listen in on our> morning service. We truly want you to be a part of our Synagogue> without walls! We have limited slots, but will not pay for more until> we need them, so get there early. We usually have the live link> streaming music at around 10:00 AM CST and the service begins at 10:30> AM CST.> > > > > > > > My prayer for you is that "Goodness and mercy" follow you! (Psalm 23).> > > > > Shalom, Ross> > > > > Click this link to unsubscribe: http://www.imsclients.com/listmail/unsubscribe.php?M=25289&N=119&L=11&C=2ecae1c1ed1a574e8fb10e17b18664be> > _______________________________________________
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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu Nov 29 22:28:16 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:28:16 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
Message-ID: <c62.1eae3abf.3480eb60@aol.com>

Hey James - 
 
    Sure ting - post away, it would be both my pleasure, and my honor.  And 
I'm still writing, much to tell.....as the saying goes, "What a long strange 
trip it's been"
 
    B'Ahava,
            Hanoch
    



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Thu Nov 29 22:49:21 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:49:21 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A566A@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Hey Denny,

I know what you are feeling and I'm still struggling with those questions myself.  I can only offer you a description of where I currently am.  I know some on this dialogue will not agree with me on some of what I have to say but that's okay, that's why it's a dialogue.

First I will flatly say that I have given up on the church as I have known it, I believe it bears little resemblance to the Church Yeshua spoke about.  I have not given up on Yeshua or my brothers and sisters however.

Second, I believe that as a whole the Bible is the inspired work of G-d.  Everything in it must be understood within the context of G-d's central thought which is the Torah.  I have come to believe that the Gospels cannot be fully understood without a deep understanding of the Torah.  I also believe that the accepted Canon is incomplete.

Third, I believe the the Christian church as we know it has focused on the wrong "good news".  To me at this time, the issue of the trinity is irrelevant.  The real good news is what Yeshua taught during his ministry.  His death and ressurection were the unavoidable result of that ministry.  I believe he is the Melech HaMoshiach (king messiah) but I am not certain that I have found an acceptable understanding of what the Melech HaMoshiach is, even in Rabbinical writings.  So I am resigned to focus on understanding his life and his message in the framework of the Torah, of the rest I will just have to say I am simply ignorant until I learn more.

'Nuff for now.  That's the kernal of my position for what it's worth.

"Be excellent to each other"
               Bill & Ted

John C.
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device


-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thu Nov 29 17:12:05 2007
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

Hello all,

It has been awhile since I have interjected any comments. We have been busy with family things as you know. This sabbath will be difficult to listen again as we will have 8 grandchildren in our care until parents get home. ;-)

I have been reading the discussions and don't feel as I have much to contribute at this time. I have more questions that anything else.
James' book THE JESUS DYNASTY has me occupied at the moment. 

A couple questions come to mind that I would like to put out for your thoughts and response.

At this time in my journey, I have lost a lot of confidence in Christianity. I feel, as Ross has described, like I have been lied to.
Now I am wondering about the trustworthiness of our New Testament Canon. Can these scriptures be trusted? I read in the dialogues about Jesus having a grave possibly. That Yeshua came to show us how to LIVE Torah. Other than that, I really haven't heard much about Yeshua and the sacrifice of his life. The apostolic writings and Shaul in particular says that if Yeshua didn't raise from the dead then our faith is in vain. What do you all think of these things? Is the New Testament  (as we call it) accurate and reliable?

Shalom,
Denny




Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play.

 
On Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 04:56PM, "Ronnie Fulcher" <ronniefulcher at yahoo.com> wrote:
>There is a grave at Safat that many contribute to
>Yeshua. I belive that the same town is the root of
>Kabbalah.
>
>Ronnie
>--- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a
>> lot of "hanging going on!"
>> For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a
>> love and appreciation
>> for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed
>> to the G-d of Abraham,
>> Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more
>> often associated with
>> Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should
>> not negate the fact that
>> he was an observant Jew.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow
>> under the impression that
>> according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in
>> Israel (I have forgotten
>> the location) where there is a gravesite attributed
>> to Yeshua and that his
>> grave, among others, is one that has been visited
>> and venerated by pious
>> rabbis down thru the ages???  I really don't think I
>> dreamed this. I thought
>> you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we
>> might need to check with my
>> brother. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Love & Blessings,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Betty/Elisheva 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>   _____  
>> 
>> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
>> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf
>> Of youngbarzel at aol.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hey Dick - 
>> 
>>    How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it
>> really makes me happy to be
>> here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an
>> interesting one.
>> Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority
>> on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
>> I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role
>> model if someone is
>> looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
>> 
>>    Having said that, if referring to the G-d of
>> Yeshua is done in the same
>> context as the G-d of any other Jew of history
>> (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
>> King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
>>  
>> 
>>    Ross makes it very clear on the website that
>> Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
>> Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize
>> that some Rabbi in
>> Israel is going to hang me one day for having
>> written that, right?   LOL
>> Only kidding......   :-)  
>>  
>>    Best regards Dick!
>>        Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
>>                      Hanoch
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>> 
>> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
>> 
>>       Just a question I have had in my mind for some
>> time.  Do you think it
>> would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers
>> to use in there prayers,
>> "God of YeShua".
>> 
>>    Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of
>> Israel"  " not as God".
>> 
>> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
>> relationship with G-d...
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Shalom to all, 
>> 
>>      With events that will effect our beloved Eretz
>> Yisrael unfolding as I
>> write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need
>> to be part of a
>> "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -
>> all it needs to be is
>> you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across
>> as disjointed, I
>> apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not
>> from 'my head'  It
>> seems I've been doing that a lot lately,
>> sighhhh......
>> 
>>       In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if
>> I was "..ready to
>> pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the
>> Yom Kippur liturgy.  As
>> we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually
>> chronicling our
>> shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en
>> melitz yosher..." which
>> is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer
>> book) as, "..we have no
>> advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that
>> will speak to HaShem on
>> our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else
>> for us to count on....
>> EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father,
>> Our King.  
>> 
>>      The central prayer in the three daily prayer
>> services in Judaism is the
>> 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -
>> the 18 Blessings (or
>> benedictions).  The first two sentences are the
>> following (transliterated
>> Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu.
>> Elohei Avraham, Elohei
>> Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is
>> simple, the meaning behind
>> it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d
>> of our Fathers. G-d of
>> Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>      The obvious question is - why the redundancy? 
>> After all, the G-d of
>> Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob)
>> is the SAME G-d....why
>> does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what
>> I learned, many, many
>> years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
>> 
>>     HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each
>> of our Avot (fathers, or
>> forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they
>> each had their own,
>> distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the
>> SAME G-d (obviously..), but
>> Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship
>> with him then did Avraham,
>> or each other, for that matter.  
>> 
>>      So it's up to you and me, to form our own
>> relationship(s) with HaShem,
>> to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on
>> behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
>> We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or
>> spokesperson that will step up
>> for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can. 
>> Who knows which of us may
>> be the one that can cause the effect to save us from
>> the evil decrees??
>> 
>>     We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail
>> now, when so much is at
>> stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday
>> night), as I've blessed my
>> daughters, I have added the following to the
>> traditional brachot
>> (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our
>> Torah, 
>=== message truncated ===>
>_______________________________________________
>> 
>
>
>
>      ____________________________________________________________________________________
>Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_______________________________________________
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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 29 22:50:49 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 04:50:49 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <113020070450.10053.474F96A8000E87F50000274522230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

cool.. got this twice... I agree with it, too... 
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From shcole1 at cox.net  Thu Nov 29 23:01:37 2007
From: shcole1 at cox.net (Sherry Cole)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:01:37 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
References: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5667@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
Message-ID: <014c01c8330e$166b5230$6700a8c0@greenuptxoxqls>

Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...Well said John. I am feeling the same struggles and I haven't given up on Yeshua or my brothers or sisters either.
Blessings
Sherry C.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: CARLSON, JOHN S 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...


  Hey Denny,

  I know what you are feeling and I'm still struggling with those questions myself.  I can only offer you a description of where I currently am.  I know some on this dialogue will not agree with me on some of what I have to say but that's okay, that's why it's a dialogue.

  First I will flatly say that I have given up on the church as I have known it, I believe it bears little resemblance to the Church Yeshua spoke about.  I have not given up on Yeshua or my brothers and sisters however.

  Second, I believe that as a whole the Bible is the inspired work of G-d.  Everything in it must be understood within the context of G-d's central thought which is the Torah.  I have come to believe that the Gospels cannot be fully understood without a deep understanding of the Torah.  I also believe that the accepted Canon is incomplete.

  Third, I believe the the Christian church as we know it has focused on the wrong "good news".  To me at this time, the issue of the trinity is irrelevant.  The real good news is what Yeshua taught during his ministry.  His death and ressurection were the unavoidable result of that ministry.  I believe he is the Melech HaMoshiach (king messiah) but I am not certain that I have found an acceptable understanding of what the Melech HaMoshiach is, even in Rabbinical writings.  So I am resigned to focus on understanding his life and his message in the framework of the Torah, of the rest I will just have to say I am simply ignorant until I learn more.

  'Nuff for now.  That's the kernal of my position for what it's worth.

  "Be excellent to each other"
                 Bill & Ted

  John C.
  --------------------------
  Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Device


  -----Original Message-----
  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
  Sent: Thu Nov 29 17:12:05 2007
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

  Hello all,

  It has been awhile since I have interjected any comments. We have been busy with family things as you know. This sabbath will be difficult to listen again as we will have 8 grandchildren in our care until parents get home. ;-)

  I have been reading the discussions and don't feel as I have much to contribute at this time. I have more questions that anything else.
  James' book THE JESUS DYNASTY has me occupied at the moment.

  A couple questions come to mind that I would like to put out for your thoughts and response.

  At this time in my journey, I have lost a lot of confidence in Christianity. I feel, as Ross has described, like I have been lied to.
  Now I am wondering about the trustworthiness of our New Testament Canon. Can these scriptures be trusted? I read in the dialogues about Jesus having a grave possibly. That Yeshua came to show us how to LIVE Torah. Other than that, I really haven't heard much about Yeshua and the sacrifice of his life. The apostolic writings and Shaul in particular says that if Yeshua didn't raise from the dead then our faith is in vain. What do you all think of these things? Is the New Testament  (as we call it) accurate and reliable?

  Shalom,
  Denny




  Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play.


  On Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 04:56PM, "Ronnie Fulcher" <ronniefulcher at yahoo.com> wrote:
  >There is a grave at Safat that many contribute to
  >Yeshua. I belive that the same town is the root of
  >Kabbalah.
  >
  >Ronnie
  >--- Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:
  >
  >> Hi Dick, Hanoch, all,
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >> Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a
  >> lot of "hanging going on!"
  >> For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a
  >> love and appreciation
  >> for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed
  >> to the G-d of Abraham,
  >> Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more
  >> often associated with
  >> Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should
  >> not negate the fact that
  >> he was an observant Jew.
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >> I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow
  >> under the impression that
  >> according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in
  >> Israel (I have forgotten
  >> the location) where there is a gravesite attributed
  >> to Yeshua and that his
  >> grave, among others, is one that has been visited
  >> and venerated by pious
  >> rabbis down thru the ages???  I really don't think I
  >> dreamed this. I thought
  >> you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we
  >> might need to check with my
  >> brother.
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >> Love & Blessings,
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >> Betty/Elisheva
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >>   _____ 
  >>
  >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
  >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf
  >> Of youngbarzel at aol.com
  >> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
  >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
  >> relationship with G-d...
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >> Hey Dick -
  >>
  >>    How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it
  >> really makes me happy to be
  >> here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an
  >> interesting one.
  >> Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority
  >> on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
  >> I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role
  >> model if someone is
  >> looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.
  >>
  >>    Having said that, if referring to the G-d of
  >> Yeshua is done in the same
  >> context as the G-d of any other Jew of history
  >> (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
  >> King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.
  >> 
  >>
  >>    Ross makes it very clear on the website that
  >> Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
  >> Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize
  >> that some Rabbi in
  >> Israel is going to hang me one day for having
  >> written that, right?   LOL
  >> Only kidding......   :-) 
  >> 
  >>    Best regards Dick!
  >>        Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
  >>                      Hanoch
  >>
  >>
  >> -----Original Message-----
  >> From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
  >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  >> Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
  >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
  >> relationship with G-d...
  >>
  >> Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
  >>
  >>       Just a question I have had in my mind for some
  >> time.  Do you think it
  >> would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers
  >> to use in there prayers,
  >> "God of YeShua".
  >>
  >>    Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of
  >> Israel"  " not as God".
  >>
  >> Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the
  >> relationship with G-d...
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >> Shalom to all,
  >>
  >>      With events that will effect our beloved Eretz
  >> Yisrael unfolding as I
  >> write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need
  >> to be part of a
  >> "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" -
  >> all it needs to be is
  >> you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across
  >> as disjointed, I
  >> apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not
  >> from 'my head'  It
  >> seems I've been doing that a lot lately,
  >> sighhhh......
  >>
  >>       In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if
  >> I was "..ready to
  >> pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the
  >> Yom Kippur liturgy.  As
  >> we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually
  >> chronicling our
  >> shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en
  >> melitz yosher..." which
  >> is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer
  >> book) as, "..we have no
  >> advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that
  >> will speak to HaShem on
  >> our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else
  >> for us to count on....
  >> EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father,
  >> Our King. 
  >>
  >>      The central prayer in the three daily prayer
  >> services in Judaism is the
  >> 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" -
  >> the 18 Blessings (or
  >> benedictions).  The first two sentences are the
  >> following (transliterated
  >> Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu.
  >> Elohei Avraham, Elohei
  >> Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is
  >> simple, the meaning behind
  >> it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d
  >> of our Fathers. G-d of
  >> Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."
  >>
  >> 
  >>
  >>      The obvious question is - why the redundancy?
  >> After all, the G-d of
  >> Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob)
  >> is the SAME G-d....why
  >> does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what
  >> I learned, many, many
  >> years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:
  >>
  >>     HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each
  >> of our Avot (fathers, or
  >> forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they
  >> each had their own,
  >> distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the
  >> SAME G-d (obviously..), but
  >> Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship
  >> with him then did Avraham,
  >> or each other, for that matter. 
  >>
  >>      So it's up to you and me, to form our own
  >> relationship(s) with HaShem,
  >> to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on
  >> behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
  >> We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or
  >> spokesperson that will step up
  >> for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.
  >> Who knows which of us may
  >> be the one that can cause the effect to save us from
  >> the evil decrees??
  >>
  >>     We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail
  >> now, when so much is at
  >> stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday
  >> night), as I've blessed my
  >> daughters, I have added the following to the
  >> traditional brachot
  >> (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our
  >> Torah,
  >=== message truncated ===>
  >_______________________________________________
  >>
  >
  >
  >
  >      ____________________________________________________________________________________
  >Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
  >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
  >_______________________________________________
  >
  >
  _______________________________________________




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Thu Nov 29 23:27:35 2007
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:27:35 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <DD8B46DE-07EA-4614-A7E8-9371E6FEBF1A@mac.com>
References: <113020070100.2574.474F60BA0000381F00000A0E22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<DD8B46DE-07EA-4614-A7E8-9371E6FEBF1A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00df01c83311$ba13a790$0200a8c0@marvin>

Denny,

To your question of the difficulty of letting go of Christian baggage?  I
can only speak for myself, but I can also speak of what I have observed for
the last 15 years.  The deeper your embedded in the doctrines of the church
the harder it seems, to be able to free yourself. Painting with a large
brush...  most Christians attend church regularly but do not really
understand the teachings they listen to, those of us who have been more
studious and dedicated in our religious life seem to have more trouble
removing our self from the false teaching.  For me, my temperament and
personality,  I could not just take the thoughts and ideals of others, I had
to study, and wrestle with the text and the ideals and concepts till slowly
one gave way to another.  By doing this till I was settled in my own mind
then I was able to move to the next part of the study.  I think to one
degree or another most of us will have to spend our on 40 years in the
wilderness, so to speak as we return to our creator.  The important point is
that we continue to "push forward" and "never give up". This journey will
take the rest our life's.

I have observed some folk who progress very fast and easy in some areas, but
then seem to not be able to get pass .....   what I thought were easy simple
hurdles.  So, we each travel at our on pace. For a long time the N.T.
movement (early church) considered it's self a part of Judaism and the
synagogue. History records it's first 15 or so bishops or leaders were
circumcised Jews.  A close reading of the book of acts shows Jews and
gentiles, together, to some degree.  Also, it shows Jews who believed Paul's
message and Jews who did not believe..... but still they were in the
synagogue each Sabbath day. Studying and learning and diologue-ing together.
And nowhere in the Book of Acts do we see "unbelieving" Jews being told that
if they did not walk the "Roman road", they were going to hell.  This was a
later product of Christianity. 

R.M. Grant in "The New Testament Cannon" p. 293, concludes that the N.
T. gospels and epistles did not gain acceptance as scripture until the
middle of the second century. The Apostolic fathers treated the sayings of
Jesus and Pauline epistles as authoritative for the Christian movement but
they did not treat them the same as or equal to scripture. Therefore, we can
conclude that the early church was studying the Torah and the prophets. 

I was looking at a book the other day I had read years ago by Richard
Rubenstein, "When Jesus became God" In his preface he said that as a Jew one
reason the Arian controversy interested him so much, "is that because before
it ended, the Jews and Christians could talk to each other and argue among
themselves about crucial issues like the divinity of Jesus, the meaning of
salvation, basic ethical standards.... everything. They disagreed strongly
about many things, but there was still a closeness between them. They
participated in the same moral culture. When the controversy ended - when
Jesus became God - that closeness faded."  The council of Nicaea delivered
the death blow, and it took over 40 years and nine more council's for the
church to consolidate their position.  From My personal experience this is
one of the biggest pieces of baggage we have to get rid of first, to
understand he was a man on a mission, but not God.

Take care,
Marvin  

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:34 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

Glenn,

Thanks for your candid thoughts. As I put myself in the New Testament  
writer's shoes, I can't help but think that they did not consider what  
they were writing to be scripture. They understood what scripture was  
and that is what they lived by.  And Yeshua spoke and taught from that  
same recognized scripture. That is where I am starting and have to  
admit that I wish I understood more of Torah. I have sadly neglected  
it all these years growing up in the church.

I really want to know what it was that Yeshua told the disciples while  
on the road to Emmaus concerning himself and Torah.  Do you think  
there was more to his life that just to show us how to live a Torah  
observant life? Is the idea that Yeshua is my savior also something I  
should be letting go of?

I wonder if you or others might share more concerning what you think  
the specific lies are that Christianity has foisted upon us. It is  
obvious by reading your stories and some of the dates that you all  
have been down this road much longer than I. Was it difficult for you  
to let go of all the Christian baggage?

Hungry to learn more,

Denny


On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:00 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote:

> Denny, Glenn again... to add to my previous response... I am not  
> saying that the NT is not Canon... for ME right NOW, I am taking a  
> big step backward and attempting to sort out the lies from the  
> truth. I also have that deep sense of having been betrayed.
>
> As for the veracity of the texts - well, I'm not sure, because it is  
> clear from even minimal research that changes have been made. Add to  
> that the nefarious dealings of those who killed Jews who refused to  
> accept their doctrine, who were the keepers of these texts for  
> centuries... well, I think you see my point.
>
> For me, I am confident that God has left me a written instruction  
> of how to live my life... and it is in the Torah. Beyond that, I am  
> willing to entertain lots of discussion!
> _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________




From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 29 23:52:41 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:52:41 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <BAY115-W232D40C2C95B5A47BF88F1BA710@phx.gbl>


Hi Denny,
 
Yes, it was hard - at least for me.  I grieved over the loss of Yeshua, as I had known him, for quite some time.  But then I came to realize that all of the attributes I so loved about Yeshua were really attributes of G-d.  He (G-d) was the one I had truly loved and served all those years.
 
The primary lie that struck me so hard was revealed in Numbers 23:19.  One morning I had begun to pray as usual, and I heard very definitely inside me, "G-d is not a man."  I knew that was Scripture, but had to look it up.  I knew I was being told something important, and felt I needed to look it up word by word in the Hebrew.   I looked it up.  That was when I discovered that in the Hebrew it was NOT saying, "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor the son of man that He should repent," but rather, "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor the son of an adam (human being) that He should repent."  Though in English, it looks like the word, "man," is being used twice, it is not!  There are two entirely different Hebrew words being used.
 
I remembered the first time I had ever read that verse, many years before, because I remembered thinking at the time, "Yeah, G-d is not the son of man, he's the son of a woman:  Mary!"  So when I saw that He was NOT the son of a human being, I knew that He couldn't have been born to Mary, since she was definitely a human being!  I was both elated and sad at the same time.  I was elated that G-d had shown me something so enormous.  I was sad at what it was that he had shown me.
 
I know how it feels to be where you are.  I appreciate the dialogue so much.  And if you see error in what I've said, I will be most appreciative to have it pointed out to me.
 
The next thing that I remember hitting me so hard back then was the fact that it didn't say in Isaiah 7:14, "Behold, a virgin (b'tulah) will conceive," but "Behold, a young woman (almah) will conceive."  Again, I learned this by looking at the Hebrew.  I couldn't believe it!  I remember going to my Unger's Bible Dictionary and looking up "virgin" to see what the explanation was concerning that deliberate mistranslation.  Essentially what Unger's, the Christian Bible Dictionary, said, was that although the word used was "almah" not "b'tulah,"  we know that it meant "virgin," not "young woman" because it is translated that way in Matt. 11:23!!!!!    - I felt totally betrayed!!!!!
 
I also discovered that the Greek for for "synagogue" was the same word used for "church."  But when translated, it was made to look as if "synagogue" was bad, as in Rev.2:9, "the synagogue of satan."  That word could/should be translated, "the church of satan!"  But IF it was saying something in a flattering way, the word would invariably be translated as "church."  That's just plain old dirty pool!!!!!
 
There are lots more examples.  Those are just a few of the things I found.
 
Dialogue is good.  If we all reason together, surely we can arrive at the truth.  I'm so encouraged to see so many searching for the truth.  To me that translates as THE TRIBES ARE COMING HOME!
 
Love,
 
Pat   
 
> From: dennyj at mac.com> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:33:45 -0600> > Glenn,> > Thanks for your candid thoughts. As I put myself in the New Testament > writer's shoes, I can't help but think that they did not consider what > they were writing to be scripture. They understood what scripture was > and that is what they lived by. And Yeshua spoke and taught from that > same recognized scripture. That is where I am starting and have to > admit that I wish I understood more of Torah. I have sadly neglected > it all these years growing up in the church.> > I really want to know what it was that Yeshua told the disciples while > on the road to Emmaus concerning himself and Torah. Do you think > there was more to his life that just to show us how to live a Torah > observant life? Is the idea that Yeshua is my savior also something I > should be letting go of?> > I wonder if you or others might share more concerning what you think > the specific lies are that Christianity has foisted upon us. It is > obvious by reading your stories and some of the dates that you all > have been down this road much longer than I. Was it difficult for you > to let go of all the Christian baggage?> > Hungry to learn more,> > Denny> > > On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:00 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote:> > > Denny, Glenn again... to add to my previous response... I am not > > saying that the NT is not Canon... for ME right NOW, I am taking a > > big step backward and attempting to sort out the lies from the > > truth. I also have that deep sense of having been betrayed.> >> > As for the veracity of the texts - well, I'm not sure, because it is > > clear from even minimal research that changes have been made. Add to > > that the nefarious dealings of those who killed Jews who refused to > > accept their doctrine, who were the keepers of these texts for > > centuries... well, I think you see my point.> >> > For me, I am confident that God has left me a writtten instruction > > of how to live my life... and it is in the Torah. Beyond that, I am > > willing to entertain lots of discussion!> > _______________________________________________> > _______________________________________________
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 30 00:01:35 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:01:35 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
In-Reply-To: <8CA01092BB0C465-3E0-85D@FWM-M45.sysops.aol.com>
References: <112620070541.9850.474A5C8F0007E1240000267A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<8C9FE6A32493A09-7A8-2EEF@webmail-de01.sysops.aol.com>
	<BF930F66-63A0-4F19-A31E-54E3EE895FBF@earthlink.net> 
	<8CA01092BB0C465-3E0-85D@FWM-M45.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W2815EC9FD362DE91041BF0BA710@phx.gbl>


Could y'all make a quick stop in Newnan, GA???????


To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU MeetingDate: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:40:49 -0500From: rndavar at aol.com
All,I want to encourage everyone on this list to begin making plans now to attend the UIWU meeting in Charlotte this coming April.  I have attended this conference for several years now and can tell you that this gathering is certainly one of the high points of my year. It is always exciting to meet others who are interested in the Bible and this conference is always attended by just such a crowd.
 
The torah says that this is one of the things we should spend our tithes on....going to the feasts and this conference is typically around Passover. 
 
I am looking forward to this. Besides James Tabor, we also expect Simcha Jacobavichi to be in attendance. Of course there are many others that attend and I would be willing to bet that there are few conferences today that have the collective knowledge of the Bible as this one has year after year.
 
We really may look at chartering a bus and bringing the whole Roots of Faith gang this year.
 
Let's discuss!  Shalom, Ross-----Original Message-----From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 6:41 pmSubject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
Hey you guys, and everyone else.  I have an idea.  You can ALL meet one another quite soon, at the UIWU April meeting!  Details to come but some very exciting things.  

James



On Nov 26, 2007, at 12:37 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:

Shalom John,
 
    Thank you so much for your note, you have no idea what a 'shot in the arm' it was for me.  It's funny, although I've yet to have the pleasure of meeting you, I feel like we're old pals - must be that Brooklyn connection, huh?  :-)  
 
     You know, I never doubt that HaShem has a plan for me, and that those things that seem difficult, or enormous obstacles now, all have a role to play for the future.  However, it's getting through the present - those very tough times, when everything seems to be going wrong, and every decision you make, you come to quickly regret, THAT's the tough part.  The toughest part, actually...     It's a true gift from HaShem to be satisfied with one's 'lot in life,' to be able to be grateful for those friends and family members who can bring such joy to your lives.  That's one side of it...on the other side, are the 'would've, should've and could've' elements that drive you crazy!  That's where my mind has been hanging out lately....Every mistake I've made, every poor choice, and the ramifications of all of them....     But you're right John, it's great to have such caring individuals here, in this "synagogue without walls;" which is actually the FRIENDLIEST synagogue I've ever been a part of!!!   :-)  :-) HaShem will bring you, me, and all of us who need him though these tough times.  HE will comfort us, Help us heal from our losses, and restore calm to us all, even when there seems to be 'no way out.'      Thanks for welcoming me (back), and reaching out, you are a real 'bro' - in all the deepest meanings of the term.  And it's great to be back in what you've called, the 'fray.'  No matter how much any of us are hurting, we have a great cause that we must continue battling for.  These are truly the "end of days..." when the forces of evil in the world are standing against HaShem, HIS land and HIS people, how can we not rise to the occasion?!?!     May we all draw strength from HaShem, and from each other....thanks for reaching out, pal - you've truly brightened what has been a horrible couple of days.  I'll try to post as often as I can....this may be my only sanity check!  LOL    B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel),            Hanoch             -----Original Message-----From: carlson_john at bellsouth.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41 amSubject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers



Hey Hanoch,
 
I've been reading along for the last couple of days.  I know I don't have a clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last year or so other than some of your work trials.  But I can honestly say that my world has been completely turned on it;s ear over the last year as well.  Loss of family and friends, emotional upheavals, major career changes, it's a lot to deal with.  I don't know if my troubles have been anything close to yours but I can say that HaShem is bringing me through it all with more hope and clarity than I could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt in my mind He will do the same for you.  It is good to have so many here to support each other.
 
It is also good to see you back in the fray.
 
As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and real way for us to make a difference.  Count me in.
 
Your brother from Brooklyn,
 
Shalom.
--John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted 
-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 
Shalom to all - 
 
    The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over Israel's borders.  With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.  Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....
 
    For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our nation.  Please check it out, and spread the word...
            Hanoch
Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot & Cold Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! 


Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
_______________________________________________



Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!_______________________________________________= 
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From Shimmy at dslextreme.com  Fri Nov 30 00:11:20 2007
From: Shimmy at dslextreme.com (Shimmy)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:11:20 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] 24th of Kislev article
In-Reply-To: <6A0D38D4-C965-4164-A217-26273F5E7333@earthlink.net>
References: <c6b.1f11cad8.3480e04e@aol.com>
	<6A0D38D4-C965-4164-A217-26273F5E7333@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.2.1255038951.4773.dialogue@rootsoffaith.org>

James, and or All,

I  misplaced my issue of the UIWU Bulletin for last year, which has 
the article on the 24th of Kislev.  If someone could email me an 
electronic copy, ASAP, I would appreciate it. I want to look up what 
James wrote about it, I forgot the details. I want to tell someone 
about it this Shabbat. A scan of the relevant page will do, if a 
digital copy is not available.

Thanks very much.

Shimmy 




From tbear001 at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 30 00:18:29 2007
From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net (roy landry)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:18:29 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <00df01c83311$ba13a790$0200a8c0@marvin>
References: <113020070100.2574.474F60BA0000381F00000A0E22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><DD8B46DE-07EA-4614-A7E8-9371E6FEBF1A@mac.com>
	<00df01c83311$ba13a790$0200a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <00e201c83318$d3f416c0$6402a8c0@roysoffice>

Denny,

 

You ask a question.  Is the idea that Yeshua is my savior also something I  

should be letting go of?  

This is something that I have been thinking about as well.  Just this week I discovered that the word Yesuha means Salvation.  

 I have waited for thy salvation ??;t?=u*Wvyl?! 

O Lord.   Gen 49:18

KJV

 

This next verse is quoted by Christians all the time.    

Isa 52:7

7 How beautiful on the mountains

are the feet of him who brings good news,

proclaiming shalom, bringing good news

of good things, announcing salvation (Yesuha)

and saying to Tziyon, ?Your God is King!? 


 

Matt 1:21

21 "She will bear a Son; and A you shall call His name Jesus (Yesuha), for 1 He B will save His people from their sins." 

 

He was named Yesuha because it means salvation or God?s Salvation.  At least that is my limited understanding of the Hebrew.  

 

Does this explain what Jesus meant when he spoke with Nicodemus and said that the Son of Man is lifted up like a serpent on a standard?  Does this mean that the name of Jesus Christ means ?Gods anointed Savior??

 

I have never heard anyone talk about this so I assume I have made a mistake somewhere.  Please help me understand what I don?t see?

 

Roy

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 11:28 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

 

Denny,

 

To your question of the difficulty of letting go of Christian baggage?  I

can only speak for myself, but I can also speak of what I have observed for

the last 15 years.  The deeper your embedded in the doctrines of the church

the harder it seems, to be able to free yourself. Painting with a large

brush...  most Christians attend church regularly but do not really

understand the teachings they listen to, those of us who have been more

studious and dedicated in our religious life seem to have more trouble

removing our self from the false teaching.  For me, my temperament and

personality,  I could not just take the thoughts and ideals of others, I had

to study, and wrestle with the text and the ideals and concepts till slowly

one gave way to another.  By doing this till I was settled in my own mind

then I was able to move to the next part of the study.  I think to one

degree or another most of us will have to spend our on 40 years in the

wilderness, so to speak as we return to our creator.  The important point is

that we continue to "push forward" and "never give up". This journey will

take the rest our life's.

 

I have observed some folk who progress very fast and easy in some areas, but

then seem to not be able to get pass .....   what I thought were easy simple

hurdles.  So, we each travel at our on pace. For a long time the N.T.

movement (early church) considered it's self a part of Judaism and the

synagogue. History records it's first 15 or so bishops or leaders were

circumcised Jews.  A close reading of the book of acts shows Jews and

gentiles, together, to some degree.  Also, it shows Jews who believed Paul's

message and Jews who did not believe..... but still they were in the

synagogue each Sabbath day. Studying and learning and diologue-ing together.

And nowhere in the Book of Acts do we see "unbelieving" Jews being told that

if they did not walk the "Roman road", they were going to hell.  This was a

later product of Christianity. 

 

R.M. Grant in "The New Testament Cannon" p. 293, concludes that the N.

T. gospels and epistles did not gain acceptance as scripture until the

middle of the second century. The Apostolic fathers treated the sayings of

Jesus and Pauline epistles as authoritative for the Christian movement but

they did not treat them the same as or equal to scripture. Therefore, we can

conclude that the early church was studying the Torah and the prophets. 

 

I was looking at a book the other day I had read years ago by Richard

Rubenstein, "When Jesus became God" In his preface he said that as a Jew one

reason the Arian controversy interested him so much, "is that because before

it ended, the Jews and Christians could talk to each other and argue among

themselves about crucial issues like the divinity of Jesus, the meaning of

salvation, basic ethical standards.... everything. They disagreed strongly

about many things, but there was still a closeness between them. They

participated in the same moral culture. When the controversy ended - when

Jesus became God - that closeness faded."  The council of Nicaea delivered

the death blow, and it took over 40 years and nine more council's for the

church to consolidate their position.  From My personal experience this is

one of the biggest pieces of baggage we have to get rid of first, to

understand he was a man on a mission, but not God.

 

Take care,

Marvin  

 

-----Original Message-----

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org

[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson

Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:34 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

 

Glenn,

 

Thanks for your candid thoughts. As I put myself in the New Testament  

writer's shoes, I can't help but think that they did not consider what  

they were writing to be scripture. They understood what scripture was  

and that is what they lived by.  And Yeshua spoke and taught from that  

same recognized scripture. That is where I am starting and have to  

admit that I wish I understood more of Torah. I have sadly neglected  

it all these years growing up in the church.

 

I really want to know what it was that Yeshua told the disciples while  

on the road to Emmaus concerning himself and Torah.  Do you think  

there was more to his life that just to show us how to live a Torah  

observant life? Is the idea that Yeshua is my savior also something I  

should be letting go of?

 

I wonder if you or others might share more concerning what you think  

the specific lies are that Christianity has foisted upon us. It is  

obvious by reading your stories and some of the dates that you all  

have been down this road much longer than I. Was it difficult for you  

to let go of all the Christian baggage?

 

Hungry to learn more,

 

Denny

 

 

On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:00 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote:

 

> Denny, Glenn again... to add to my previous response... I am not  

> saying that the NT is not Canon... for ME right NOW, I am taking a  

> big step backward and attempting to sort out the lies from the  

> truth. I also have that deep sense of having been betrayed.

> 

> As for the veracity of the texts - well, I'm not sure, because it is  

> clear from even minimal research that changes have been made. Add to  

> that the nefarious dealings of those who killed Jews who refused to  

> accept their doctrine, who were the keepers of these texts for  

> centuries... well, I think you see my point.

> 

> For me, I am confident that God has left me a written instruction  

> of how to live my life... and it is in the Torah. Beyond that, I am  

> willing to entertain lots of discussion!

> _______________________________________________

 

_______________________________________________

 

 

_______________________________________________

 

 

-- 

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition. 

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.10/1159 - Release Date: 11/29/2007 11:10 AM

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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Thu Nov 29 12:32:29 2007
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:32:29 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <001201c8321e$18373ca0$653c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <001201c8321e$18373ca0$653c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <BA55547D3E3A43C5A04FDB444819E5A5@DickLPC>

You are right Betty !!   James & J David visited that cemetery, after following the path that the Ari wrote about. I think James has it on line somewhere????
  Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 7:23 PM
  Subject: The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...


  Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 

   

  Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a lot of "hanging going on!" For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a love and appreciation for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more often associated with Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should not negate the fact that he was an observant Jew.

   

  I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow under the impression that according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in Israel (I have forgotten the location) where there is a gravesite attributed to Yeshua and that his grave, among others, is one that has been visited and venerated by pious rabbis down thru the ages???  I really don't think I dreamed this. I thought you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we might need to check with my brother. 

   

  Love & Blessings,

   

  Betty/Elisheva 

   

   

   

   

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
  Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

   

  Hey Dick - 

     How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it really makes me happy to be here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an interesting one.  Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority on Jewish Law (Halacha) - I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role model if someone is looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.

     Having said that, if referring to the G-d of Yeshua is done in the same context as the G-d of any other Jew of history (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak, King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.  

     Ross makes it very clear on the website that Yeshua prayed to the G-d of Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize that some Rabbi in Israel is going to hang me one day for having written that, right?   LOL  Only kidding......   :-)  
   
     Best regards Dick!
         Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
                       Hanoch


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

  Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!

        Just a question I have had in my mind for some time.  Do you think it would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers to use in there prayers, "God of YeShua".

     Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of Israel"  " not as God".

    Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

     

    Shalom to all, 

         With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across as disjointed, I apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head'  It seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh......

          In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy.  As we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on.... EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.  

         The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or benedictions).  The first two sentences are the following (transliterated Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is simple, the meaning behind it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."

     

         The obvious question is - why the redundancy?  After all, the G-d of Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what I learned, many, many years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:

        HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own, distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham, or each other, for that matter.  

         So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem, to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael.  We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.  Who knows which of us may be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees??

        We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his children:  "And may you always know the difference between what's important, and what's not."  

     

        May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new ones....


        B'Ahavat Yisrael,
                 Hanoch

     


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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Nov 30 04:42:22 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:42:22 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Check out Excerpts From Herzl's The Jewish State
Message-ID: <c4d.23b6bc0b.3481430e@aol.com>

I have been reading a bit on Zionism tonight.  Thought you might want  to 
read these excerpts.
 
_Click  here: Excerpts From Herzl's The Jewish State_ 
(http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/herzlex.html)  
 
In case the hyperlink above does not come through:
 
_http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/herzlex.html_ 
(http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/herzlex.html) 
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 30 06:33:19 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:33:19 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II
In-Reply-To: <c62.1eae3abf.3480eb60@aol.com>
References: <c62.1eae3abf.3480eb60@aol.com>
Message-ID: <2039282659-1196426138-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1148080592-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Keep on truckin' Hanoch.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com

Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:28:16 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This not-so-short saga, Part II


Hey James - 
? 
??? Sure ting - post away, it would be both my pleasure, and my honor.? And I'm still writing, much to tell.....as the saying goes, "What a long strange trip it's been" 
? 
??? B'Ahava, 
??? ??? ??? Hanoch 
??? 




----------------
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products <http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001>  and top money wasters <http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop00030000000002>  of 2007._______________________________________________


From dennyj at mac.com  Fri Nov 30 06:42:33 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny Johnson)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:42:33 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <BAY115-W232D40C2C95B5A47BF88F1BA710@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY115-W232D40C2C95B5A47BF88F1BA710@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F689FDFD-9602-4F9C-8154-15964976D950@mac.com>

Hi all,

Thanks for the responses. I won't have time to reply until Sunday as  
our lives will be just crazy for a few days.
I'll be back. Meanwhile, Shabbat Shalom!

Denny


On Nov 29, 2007, at 11:52 PM, patricia robbins wrote:

> Hi Denny,
>
> Yes, it was hard - at least for me.  I grieved over the loss of  
> Yeshua, as I had known him, for quite some time.  But then I came to  
> realize that all of the attributes I so loved about Yeshua were  
> really attributes of G-d.  He (G-d) was the one I had truly loved  
> and served all those years.
>
> The primary lie that struck me so hard was revealed in Numbers  
> 23:19.  One morning I had begun to pray as usual, and I heard very  
> definitely inside me, "G-d is not a man."  I knew that was  
> Scripture, but had to look it up.  I knew I was being told something  
> important, and felt I needed to look it up word by word in the  
> Hebrew.   I looked it up.  That was when I discovered that in the  
> Hebrew it was NOT saying, "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor  
> the son of man that He should repent," but rather, "G-d is not a man  
> that He should lie, nor the son of an adam (human being) that He  
> should repent."  Though in English, it looks like the word, "man,"  
> is being used twice, it is not!  There are two entirely different  
> Hebrew words being used.
>
> I remembered the first time I had ever read that verse, many years  
> before, because I remembered thinking at the time, "Yeah, G-d is not  
> the son of man, he's the son of a woman:  Mary!"  So when I saw that  
> He was NOT the son of a human being, I knew that He couldn't have  
> been born to Mary, since she was definitely a human being!  I was  
> both elated and sad at the same time.  I was elated that G-d had  
> shown me something so enormous.  I was sad at what it was that he  
> had shown me.
>
> I know how it feels to be where you are.  I appreciate the dialogue  
> so much.  And if you see error in what I've said, I will be most  
> appreciative to have it pointed out to me.
>
> The next thing that I remember hitting me so hard back then was the  
> fact that it didn't say in Isaiah 7:14, "Behold, a virgin (b'tulah)  
> will conceive," but "Behold, a young woman (almah) will conceive."   
> Again, I learned this by looking at the Hebrew.  I couldn't believe  
> it!  I remember going to my Unger's Bible Dictionary and looking up  
> "virgin" to see what the explanation was concerning that deliberate  
> mistranslation.  Essentially what Unger's, the Christian Bible  
> Dictionary, said, was that although the word used was "almah" not  
> "b'tulah,"  we know that it meant "virgin," not "young woman"  
> because it is translated that way in Matt. 11:23!!!!!    - I felt  
> totally betrayed!!!!!
>
> I also discovered that the Greek for for "synagogue" was the same  
> word used for "church."  But when translated, it was made to look as  
> if "synagogue" was bad, as in Rev.2:9, "the synagogue of satan."   
> That word could/should be translated, "the church of satan!"  But IF  
> it was saying something in a flattering way, the word would  
> invariably be translated as "church."  That's just plain old dirty  
> pool!!!!!
>
> There are lots more examples.  Those are just a few of the things I  
> found.
>
> Dialogue is good.  If we all reason together, surely we can arrive  
> at the truth.  I'm so encouraged to see so many searching for the  
> truth.  To me that translates as THE TRIBES ARE COMING HOME!
>
> Love,
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> > From: dennyj at mac.com
> > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship  
> with G-d...
> > Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:33:45 -0600
> >
> > Glenn,
> >
> > Thanks for your candid thoughts. As I put myself in the New  
> Testament
> > writer's shoes, I can't help but think that they did not consider  
> what
> > they were writing to be scripture. They understood what scripture  
> was
> > and that is what they lived by. And Yeshua spoke and taught from  
> that
> > same recognized scripture. That is where I am starting and have to
> > admit that I wish I understood more of Torah. I have sadly neglected
> > it all these years growing up in the church.
> >
> > I really want to know what it was that Yeshua told the disciples  
> while
> > on the road to Emmaus concerning himself and Torah. Do you think
> > there was more to his life that just to show us how to live a Torah
> > observant life? Is the idea that Yeshua is my savior also  
> something I
> > should be letting go of?
> >
> > I wonder if you or others might share more concerning what you think
> > the specific lies are that Christianity has foisted upon us. It is
> > obvious by reading your stories and some of the dates that you all
> > have been down this road much longer than I. Was it difficult for  
> you
> > to let go of all the Christian baggage?
> >
> > Hungry to learn more,
> >
> > Denny
> >
> >
> > On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:00 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote:
> >
> > > Denny, Glenn again... to add to my previous response... I am not
> > > saying that the NT is not Canon... for ME right NOW, I am taking a
> > > big step backward and attempting to sort out the lies from the
> > > truth. I also have that deep sense of having been betrayed.
> > >
> > > As for the veracity of the texts - well, I'm not sure, because  
> it is
> > > clear from even minimal research that changes have been made.  
> Add to
> > > that the nefarious dealings of those who killed Jews who refused  
> to
> > > accept their doctrine, who were the keepers of these texts for
> > > centuries... well, I think you see my point.
> > >
> > > For me, I am confident that God has left me a writtten instruction
> > > of how to live my life... and it is in the Torah. Beyond that, I  
> am
> > > willing to entertain lots of discussion!
> > > _______________________________________________
> >
> > _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________

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From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 30 07:15:01 2007
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:15:01 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <113020071315.27870.47500CD5000719F300006CDE22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

ooooo, Roy... I like this one... Yeshua did say he was in the Torah, Prophets and Psalms... 
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 30 08:58:52 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:58:52 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <113020071458.13967.4750252C0000D04E0000368F22218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Denny,

Understand, crazy!

One more point.

I have concluded that while fellowship and closeness with our brothers and sisters is G-d given and a necessity (as well as a joy) for human beings, my (our) relationship with G-d cannot be defined through any one group (denomination or faith if you will), it is a personal and individual thing defined by the picture G-d has given us of His personality through His word (the Torah) and it requires me to learn about Him just as I learned about my earthly father and mother.

I have had other discussions online around these issues and have been challenged by some regarding the validity of the version of the Torah that is being used, I think the question was, "which one are we to believe?"

It is true that we are finding earlier and earlier writings that seem to contradict the Masoretic text's in some respects.

But my answer is that this is where faith truly shows itself.  We don't have the original tablets that G-d scribed for Moses, we don't have the original scrolls that Moses himself scribed, all we have are copies and I believe that is all we will ever have.  With due respect to the Rabbinical laws and devotion to ensuring fidelity of the copies to the original (and I mean that sincerely), the question as to whether changes have been introduced over time cannot be definitively resolved at this point in time.  The issue of the NT letters pales in comparison to this one.  So my conclusion is that G-d wrote down what He wants us to know about what it means to have a true relationship to Him (to be holy unto him) and I believe that He is powerful enough to protect it even if man is not.  We will find discrepancies but they do not invalidate the whole, the better we understand the whole of His word (let Him write it on our hearts) the better we will be able to resolve those discrepancies.


I also believe that this was a major part of Yeshua's ministry.  Christians place much emphasis on the idea that Christ came to fulfill the prophesies of the new covenant and "write the Law on our hearts" and I believe that is true, but maybe not quite the same way as I used to.  I think Yeshua's ministry in part placed a "validation stamp" on the Law as he taught and practiced it in his time.  In other words, he had no intention of starting a new religion, he intended to illuminate the Law and the Prophets as they were already given for Judah once and for all and through them to all mankind.  So I believe one cannot truly understand Yeshua's ministry unless one studies the Law and the Prophets and one needs to understand Yeshua's teachings in order to fully internalize the Law and the Prophets (somebody get the noose!).

In my mind the bottom line answer to the "which one do we believe" question is that we are never going to prove that G-d exists through logic and scientific reason (and believe me I am a strong proponent of both).  G-d is simply never going to allow that to happen, because if He did so it would be the one thing that would truly invalidate faith.  So we strive to understand His character as best we can through the writings He has given us and the guidance of His Holy Spirit and we use that understanding to weather the challenges of contradiction.  Otherwise, in my humble opinion we may as well go worship a stick, it would be just as rational.  I am in no way arguing that the study of other faiths and religions is useless, in fact I have found that there are many concepts preserved in the tenets of other religions that are very illuminating and curiously amplify concepts found in the Torah.  But I believe it is critical (at least for me) to have a reference point, a stake in the grou
nd to tether to and for me that stake is the Torah.

Again....... for what it's worth.

Early Shabbot Shalom to all as I climb down from my soapbox.  Thanks for listening.

;-{)}

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from Denny Johnson <dennyj at mac.com>: -------------- 

Hi all,


Thanks for the responses. I won't have time to reply until Sunday as our lives will be just crazy for a few days.
I'll be back. Meanwhile, Shabbat Shalom!


Denny




On Nov 29, 2007, at 11:52 PM, patricia robbins wrote:


Hi Denny,
 
Yes, it was hard - at least for me.  I grieved over the loss of Yeshua, as I had known him, for quite some time.  But then I came to realize that all of the attributes I so loved about Yeshua were really attributes of G-d.  He (G-d) was the one I had truly loved and served all those years.
 
The primary lie that struck me so hard was revealed in Numbers 23:19.  One morning I had begun to pray as usual, and I heard very definitely inside me, "G-d is not a man."  I knew that was Scripture, but had to look it up.  I knew I was being told something important, and felt I needed to look it up word by word in the Hebrew.   I looked it up.  That was when I discovered that in the Hebrew it was NOT saying, "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor the son of man that He should repent," but rather, "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor the son of an adam (human being) that He should repent."  Though in English, it looks like the word, "man," is being used twice, it is not!  There are two entirely different Hebrew words being used.
 
I remembered the first time I had ever read that verse, many years before, because I remembered thinking at the time, "Yeah, G-d is not the son of man, he's the son of a woman:  Mary!"  So when I saw that He was NOT the son of a human being, I knew that He couldn't have been born to Mary, since she was definitely a human being!  I was both elated and sad at the same time.  I was elated that G-d had shown me something so enormous.  I was sad at what it was that he had shown me.
 
I know how it feels to be where you are.  I appreciate the dialogue so much.  And if you see error in what I've said, I will be most appreciative to have it pointed out to me.
 
The next thing that I remember hitting me so hard back then was the fact that it didn't say in Isaiah 7:14, "Behold, a virgin (b'tulah) will conceive," but "Behold, a young woman (almah) will conceive."  Again, I learned this by looking at the Hebrew.  I couldn't believe it!  I remember going to my Unger's Bible Dictionary and looking up "virgin" to see what the explanation was concerning that deliberate mistranslation.  Essentially what Unger's, the Christian Bible Dictionary, said, was that although the word used was "almah" not "b'tulah,"  we know that it meant "virgin," not "young woman" because it is translated that way in Matt. 11:23!!!!!    - I felt totally betrayed!!!!!
 
I also discovered that the Greek for for "synagogue" was the same word used for "church."  But when translated, it was made to look as if "synagogue" was bad, as in Rev.2:9, "the synagogue of satan."  That word could/should be translated, "the church of satan!"  But IF it was saying something in a flattering way, the word would invariably be translated as "church."  That's just plain old dirty pool!!!!!
 
There are lots more examples.  Those are just a few of the things I found.
 
Dialogue is good.  If we all reason together, surely we can arrive at the truth.  I'm so encouraged to see so many searching for the truth.  To me that translates as THE TRIBES ARE COMING HOME!
 
Love,
 
Pat   
 


> From: dennyj at mac.com
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:33:45 -0600
> 
> Glenn,
> 
> Thanks for your candid thoughts. As I put myself in the New Testament 
> writer's shoes, I can't help but think that they did not consider what 
> they were writing to be scripture. They understood what scripture was 
> and that is what they lived by. And Yeshua spoke and taught from that 
> same recognized scripture. That is where I am starting and have to 
> admit that I wish I understood more of Torah. I have sadly neglected 
> it all these years growing up in the church.
> 
> I really want to know what it was that Yeshua told the disciples while 
> on the road to Emmaus concerning himself and Torah. Do you think 
> there was more to his life that just to show us how to live a Torah 
> observant life? Is the idea that Yeshua is my savior also something I 
> should be letting go of?
> 
> I wonder if you or others might share more concerning what you think 
> the specific lies are that Christianity has foisted upon us. It is 
> obvious by reading your stories and some of the dates that you all 
> have been down this road much longer than I. Was it difficult for you 
> to let go of all the Christian baggage?
> 
> Hungry to learn more,
> 
> Denny
> 
> 
> On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:00 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote:
> 
> > Denny, Glenn again... to add to my previous response... I am not 
> > saying that the NT is not Canon... for ME right NOW, I am taking a 
> > big step backward and attempting to sort out the lies from the 
> > truth. I also have that deep sense of having been betrayed.
> >
> > As for the veracity of the texts - well, I'm not sure, because it is 
> > clear from even minimal research that changes have been made. Add to 
> > that the nefarious dealings of those who killed Jews who refused to 
> > accept their doctrine, who were the keepers of these texts for 
> > centuries... well, I think you see my point.
> >
> > For me, I am confident that God has left me a writtten instruction 
> > of how to live my life... and it is in the Torah. Beyond that, I am 
> > willing to entertain lots of discussion!
> > _______________________________________________
> 
> _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
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From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Fri Nov 30 09:24:04 2007
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:24:04 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <cce.1ee908b6.34818514@aol.com>

John,
 
You have stated where you stand at this time well, and perhaps many of  us 
are in the same frame of mind. I have no doubt that in the so-called NT,  Greek 
scribal alterations have been made. For instance although we have no  original 
autographs I take Matt 1:18-25 as spurious additions to what would  otherwise 
be completely in harmony with the Torah and the prophets.  In  fact when we 
remove 18-25 the genealogy of Yeshua makes sense, Joseph as  the biological 
father and Mary the mother of Yeshua, which in turn from Joseph  Yeshua is of the 
bloodline of Abraham and David. In Rom 1:3, concerning his son  Yeshua 
messiah which was made of the "sperma" of David after the flesh. It is  only the 
Sinatic Syriac MS in v.16 that names Joseph as the natural father of  Yeshua. But 
then the Syriac MS adds vs. 18-25, so go figure. 
 
What is clear is that either the birth narratives are correct or the  
Genealogy is correct, but both cannot be correct. That leaves us with an  easy 
choice. What we do have is the Torah, Prophets, and Writings to  draw from. My own 
rule of thumb is at ant point in the NT texts fail to  harmonize with the 
scriptures for Yeshua and the disciples I hold them as  spurious additions to the 
original autographs. I might add in terms of the  genealogy of Matthew it 
appears that what is brought together is the culmination  of the seed of the woman 
Ge 3:15, through Mary, the bloodline from Abraham  and David through Joseph. 
Although the puzzle is incomplete in my own thinking  and maybe someone has 
figured it out, and that is why the seed from  Joseph, and Mary was called 
Joshua, a descendant of Joseph/Ephraim? 
 
Take care 
 
Clyde 



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Fri Nov 30 10:29:08 2007
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:29:08 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <00e201c83318$d3f416c0$6402a8c0@roysoffice>
References: <113020070100.2574.474F60BA0000381F00000A0E22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><DD8B46DE-07EA-4614-A7E8-9371E6FEBF1A@mac.com><00df01c83311$ba13a790$0200a8c0@marvin>
	<00e201c83318$d3f416c0$6402a8c0@roysoffice>
Message-ID: <000301c8336e$237098e0$0200a8c0@marvin>

Joh 3:14  "And as Moshe lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 

Joh 3:15  "that whoever believes in Him may have eternal life. 

Joh 3:16  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 

Joh 3:17  "For God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 

 

>From Jesus own words as recorded in the N.T. writings, what was his mission? What / whom did he say he came to?

 

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness -  Jesus proceeds in this and the following verses to state the reason why he came into the world and, in order to this, he illustrates His design, and the efficacy of his coming, by a reference to the case of the brass serpent, recorded in Num_21:8-9. 

 

Num 21:8  And the LORD3068 said559 unto413 Moses,4872 Make6213 thee a fiery serpent,8314 and set7760 it upon5921 a pole:5251 and it shall come to pass,1961 that every one3605 that is bitten,5391 when he looketh upon7200 it, shall live.2425 

Num 21:9  And Moses4872 made6213 a serpent5175 of brass,5178 and put7760 it upon5921 a pole,5251 and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 

 

The people were bitten by flying fiery serpents. There was no cure for the bite. Moses was directed to make an image of the serpent, and place it in sight of the people, that they might look on it and be healed. There is no evidence that this was intended to be a type of the Messiah, but it is used by Jesus as strikingly illustrating his work.

 

Joh 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,.... The history referred to is in Num_21:8. There is, in many things, an agreement between this serpent, and Jesus Christ: as in the matter of it, it was a brazen serpent; it was made not of gold, nor of silver, but of brass, the meaner metal, and was a very unlikely means, of itself, to heal the Israelites; and might be despised by many: this may denote the meanness of Christ in his human nature, in his birth and parentage, and place of education and converse; and especially in his crucifixion and death; and which, to an eye of carnal sense and reason, seemed a very improbable means of saving sinners; and therefore were to some a stumbling block, and to others foolishness: though on the other hand, as brass is a shining metal, and might be chose for the serpent in the wilderness to be made of, that by the lustre of it the eyes of the Israelites might be attracted and directed to it, ???..,  It is certain, that the Jews had a notion that the brazen serpent was symbolical and figurative: Philo the Jew makes it to be a symbol of fortitude and temperance (t); and the author of the apocryphal book of Wisdom (u), calls it "a sign of salvation". They thought there was something mysterious in it: hence they say (w), 

 

"in four places it is said, "make thee", &c. In three places it is explained, viz. Gen_6:14, and one is not explained, Num_21:8, "make thee a fiery serpent", ?? ????, is not explained.'' 

 

And elsewhere (x) they ask, 

 

"and could the serpent kill, or make alive? But at the time that Israel looked up, and served with their hearts their Father which is in heaven, they were healed; but if not, they were brought low.'' 

 

So that the look was not merely to the brazen serpent, but to God in heaven; yea, to the word of God, his essential Logos, as say the Targumists on Num_21:9. The Jerusalem Targum paraphrases the words thus: 

 

"and Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a high place, and whoever was bitten by the serpents, and lift up his face, in prayer, to his Father which is in heaven, and looked upon the serpent of brass, lived.'' 

 

And Jonathan ben Uzziel paraphrases them thus: 

 

"and Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a high place; and it was, when a serpent had bitten any man, and he looked to the serpent of brass, "and directed his heart", ???? ????? ???, "to the name of the word of the Lord", he lived.'' 

 

And this healing they understand not only of bodily healing, but of the healing of the soul: for they observe (y), that 

 

"as soon as they said, "we have sinned", immediately their iniquity was expiated; and they had the good news brought them "of the healing of the soul", as it is written, "make thee a seraph"; and he does not say a serpent; and this is it: "and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live", ????? ????, "through the healing of the soul":'' 

 

yea, they compare the Messiah to a serpent; for so the Targum on  Isa_14:29 paraphrases that passage: 

 

"the Messiah shall come forth from Jesse's children's children; and his works shall be among you as a "flying serpent".'' 

 

And who else can be designed by the "other serpent of life" (z), and the "holy serpent" (a) they speak of, in opposition to the evil serpent that seduced Eve? And it is well known, that ???, "a serpent", and ????, "Messiah", are numerically, or by gematry, the same; a way of interpretation, and explanation, often in use with the Jews. Now, as this serpent was lifted up on a pole on high, that every one that was bitten with the fiery serpent might look to it, and be healed; 

 

even so must the son of man be lifted up; upon the cross, and die: the crucifixion and death of Christ were necessary, and must be, because of the decrees and purposes of God, by which he was foreordained thereunto, and by which determinate counsel he was delivered, taken, crucified, and slain; and because of his own engagements as a surety, laying himself under obligations in the council and covenant of peace, to suffer, and die, in the room of his people; and because of the prophecies in the Old Testament, and his own predictions, that so it should be; as also, that the antitype might answer the type; and particularly, that he might be a suitable object of faith for wounded sinners, sensible of sin, to look unto. 

 

(t) De Agricult. p. 202. & Allegor. l. 3. p. 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104. (u) C. 16. v. 6. (w) T. Hieros. Roshhashanah, fol. 59. 1. (x) Misn. Roshhashanah, c. 3. sect. 3. (y) Tzeror Hammor, fol. 123. 2. (z) Zohar in Gen fol. 36. 2. (a) Tikkune Zohar in Jetzira, p. 134.         ---- Notes taken from John Gill?s commentary.

 

 

2Ki 18:4 ? He (Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. )  removed the high places,....

and broke the images, and cut down the groves;  and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made; 

 

for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it not from the time it was brought into Canaan, nor even in later times, in the days of Asa and Jehoshaphat, who would never have suffered it; very probably this piece of idolatry began in the times of Ahaz, who encouraged everything of that kind: for this serpent they had a great veneration, being made by Moses, and a means in his time of healing the Israelites; and they imagined it might be of some service to them, in a way of mediation to God; and worthy of worship, having some degree of divinity???..

 

and he called it Nehushtan; perceiving they were ensnared by it, and drawn into idolatry to it, by way of contempt he called it by this name, which signifies "brass"; suggesting that it was only a mere piece of brass, had no divinity in it, and could be of no service to them in divine things; and, that it might no longer be a snare to them, he broke it into pieces; and, as the Jews (o) say, ground it to powder, and scattered it to every wind, that there might be no remains of it. 

 

 

Ki 18:4  He removed the high places, and brake the pillars, and cut down the Asherah: and he brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made; for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it; and he called it Nehushtan. 

2Ki 18:5  He trusted in Jehovah, the God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among them that were before him. 

2Ki 18:6  For he clave to Jehovah; he departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which Jehovah commanded Moses. 

 

(l) See Dampier's Voyage, vol. 1. p. 411. (m) Vid. Fabritii Bibliograph. Antiqu. c. 9. sect. 11. (n) Cli Yaker, fol. 538. 2. (o) T. Bab. Avodah Zarah, fol. 44. 1. ----  notes taken from John Gill?s commentary.

 

Notice the very thing that saved the children of Israel in the wilderness, became and idol to them and they looked on it as they worshiped God. Just like the Golden calf in the wilderness.   If you will notice in the context of the fiery serpent in the wilderness, the children of Israel were traveling around the nations of Edom and dealing with them.  Israel was forbidden to ?abhor an Edomite,? on the ground that he was a brother; and children of the third generation might enter the assembly of the Lord (Deu_23:7 f). War with Edom was out of the question.   Remember what the rabbis say about Edom and Rome being equated together?  Many of the people on this path are coming from Christianity but when they deal with Idolatry ( and it takes a long time sometimes) they finally get to were Hezekiah got to: he trusted in YHVH, the God of Israel and followed the commandments.  As the children of Israel looked on the serpent on the pole, where they putting their faith in YHVH, or in the serpent?  

 

?trust in YHVH?

Shalom 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of roy landry
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

 

Denny,

 

You ask a question.  Is the idea that Yeshua is my savior also something I  

should be letting go of?  

This is something that I have been thinking about as well.  Just this week I discovered that the word Yesuha means Salvation.  

 I have waited for thy salvation ??;t?=u*Wvyl?! 

O Lord.   Gen 49:18

KJV

 

This next verse is quoted by Christians all the time.    

Isa 52:7

7 How beautiful on the mountains

are the feet of him who brings good news,

proclaiming shalom, bringing good news

of good things, announcing salvation (Yesuha)

and saying to Tziyon, ?Your God is King!? 


 

Matt 1:21

21 "She will bear a Son; and A you shall call His name Jesus (Yesuha), for 1 He B will save His people from their sins." 

 

He was named Yesuha because it means salvation or God?s Salvation.  At least that is my limited understanding of the Hebrew.  

 

Does this explain what Jesus meant when he spoke with Nicodemus and said that the Son of Man is lifted up like a serpent on a standard?  Does this mean that the name of Jesus Christ means ?Gods anointed Savior??

 

I have never heard anyone talk about this so I assume I have made a mistake somewhere.  Please help me understand what I don?t see?

 

Roy

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 11:28 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

 

Denny,

 

To your question of the difficulty of letting go of Christian baggage?  I

can only speak for myself, but I can also speak of what I have observed for

the last 15 years.  The deeper your embedded in the doctrines of the church

the harder it seems, to be able to free yourself. Painting with a large

brush...  most Christians attend church regularly but do not really

understand the teachings they listen to, those of us who have been more

studious and dedicated in our religious life seem to have more trouble

removing our self from the false teaching.  For me, my temperament and

personality,  I could not just take the thoughts and ideals of others, I had

to study, and wrestle with the text and the ideals and concepts till slowly

one gave way to another.  By doing this till I was settled in my own mind

then I was able to move to the next part of the study.  I think to one

degree or another most of us will have to spend our on 40 years in the

wilderness, so to speak as we return to our creator.  The important point is

that we continue to "push forward" and "never give up". This journey will

take the rest our life's.

 

I have observed some folk who progress very fast and easy in some areas, but

then seem to not be able to get pass .....   what I thought were easy simple

hurdles.  So, we each travel at our on pace. For a long time the N.T.

movement (early church) considered it's self a part of Judaism and the

synagogue. History records it's first 15 or so bishops or leaders were

circumcised Jews.  A close reading of the book of acts shows Jews and

gentiles, together, to some degree.  Also, it shows Jews who believed Paul's

message and Jews who did not believe..... but still they were in the

synagogue each Sabbath day. Studying and learning and diologue-ing together.

And nowhere in the Book of Acts do we see "unbelieving" Jews being told that

if they did not walk the "Roman road", they were going to hell.  This was a

later product of Christianity. 

 

R.M. Grant in "The New Testament Cannon" p. 293, concludes that the N.

T. gospels and epistles did not gain acceptance as scripture until the

middle of the second century. The Apostolic fathers treated the sayings of

Jesus and Pauline epistles as authoritative for the Christian movement but

they did not treat them the same as or equal to scripture. Therefore, we can

conclude that the early church was studying the Torah and the prophets. 

 

I was looking at a book the other day I had read years ago by Richard

Rubenstein, "When Jesus became God" In his preface he said that as a Jew one

reason the Arian controversy interested him so much, "is that because before

it ended, the Jews and Christians could talk to each other and argue among

themselves about crucial issues like the divinity of Jesus, the meaning of

salvation, basic ethical standards.... everything. They disagreed strongly

about many things, but there was still a closeness between them. They

participated in the same moral culture. When the controversy ended - when

Jesus became God - that closeness faded."  The council of Nicaea delivered

the death blow, and it took over 40 years and nine more council's for the

church to consolidate their position.  From My personal experience this is

one of the biggest pieces of baggage we have to get rid of first, to

understand he was a man on a mission, but not God.

 

Take care,

Marvin  

 

-----Original Message-----

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org

[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson

Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:34 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

 

Glenn,

 

Thanks for your candid thoughts. As I put myself in the New Testament  

writer's shoes, I can't help but think that they did not consider what  

they were writing to be scripture. They understood what scripture was  

and that is what they lived by.  And Yeshua spoke and taught from that  

same recognized scripture. That is where I am starting and have to  

admit that I wish I understood more of Torah. I have sadly neglected  

it all these years growing up in the church.

 

I really want to know what it was that Yeshua told the disciples while  

on the road to Emmaus concerning himself and Torah.  Do you think  

there was more to his life that just to show us how to live a Torah  

observant life? Is the idea that Yeshua is my savior also something I  

should be letting go of?

 

I wonder if you or others might share more concerning what you think  

the specific lies are that Christianity has foisted upon us. It is  

obvious by reading your stories and some of the dates that you all  

have been down this road much longer than I. Was it difficult for you  

to let go of all the Christian baggage?

 

Hungry to learn more,

 

Denny

 

 

On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:00 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote:

 

> Denny, Glenn again... to add to my previous response... I am not  

> saying that the NT is not Canon... for ME right NOW, I am taking a  

> big step backward and attempting to sort out the lies from the  

> truth. I also have that deep sense of having been betrayed.

> 

> As for the veracity of the texts - well, I'm not sure, because it is  

> clear from even minimal research that changes have been made. Add to  

> that the nefarious dealings of those who killed Jews who refused to  

> accept their doctrine, who were the keepers of these texts for  

> centuries... well, I think you see my point.

> 

> For me, I am confident that God has left me a written instruction  

> of how to live my life... and it is in the Torah. Beyond that, I am  

> willing to entertain lots of discussion!

> _______________________________________________

 

_______________________________________________

 

 

_______________________________________________

 

 

-- 

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition. 

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.10/1159 - Release Date: 11/29/2007 11:10 AM

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From info at poweredbyhadavar.com  Fri Nov 30 11:58:39 2007
From: info at poweredbyhadavar.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:58:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <434156.72755.qm@web1001.biz.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

What if you were not bitten, did you have to look at the serpent on the pole?  Or was everyone bitten?


Rick

----- Original Message ----
From: mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:29:08 AM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...




 
 

 

 

 

 


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Joh 3:14  "And as Moshe lifted up the
serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 
 

Joh 3:15  "that
whoever believes in Him may have eternal life. 
 

Joh 3:16  "For God
so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes
in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 
 

Joh 3:17  "For God
did not send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world
might be saved through Him. 
 

  
 

From Jesus own words as recorded
in the N.T. writings, what was his mission? What / whom did he say he came to?
 

  
 

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness -  Jesus
proceeds in this and the following verses to state the reason why he came into
the world and, in order to this, he illustrates His design, and the efficacy of
his coming, by a reference to the case of the brass serpent, recorded in Num_21:8-9. 
 

  
 

Num 21:8  And the LORD3068 said559 unto413 Moses,4872 Make6213 thee a fiery
serpent,8314
and set7760
it upon5921
a pole:5251
and it shall come to pass,1961
that every one3605
that is bitten,5391
when he looketh upon7200
it, shall live.2425

 

Num 21:9  And Moses4872 made6213 a serpent5175 of brass,5178 and put7760 it upon5921 a pole,5251 and it came to
pass,1961
that if518
a serpent5175
had bitten5391
(853) any
man,376
when he beheld5027, 413
the serpent5175
of brass,5178
he lived.2425

 

  
 

The people were bitten by flying fiery serpents. There was
no cure for the bite. Moses was directed to make an image of the serpent, and
place it in sight of the people, that they might look on it and be healed.
There is no evidence that this was intended to be a type of the Messiah, but it
is used by Jesus as strikingly illustrating his work.
 

  
 

Joh 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,....
The history referred to is in Num_21:8.
There is, in many things, an agreement between this serpent, and Jesus Christ:
as in the matter of it, it was a brazen serpent; it was made not of gold, nor
of silver, but of brass, the meaner metal, and was a very unlikely means, of
itself, to heal the Israelites; and might be despised by many: this may denote
the meanness of Christ in his human nature, in his birth and parentage, and
place of education and converse; and especially in his crucifixion and death;
and which, to an eye of carnal sense and reason, seemed a very improbable means
of saving sinners; and therefore were to some a stumbling block, and to others
foolishness: though on the other hand, as brass is a shining metal, and might
be chose for the serpent in the wilderness to be made of, that by the lustre of
it the eyes of the Israelites might be attracted and directed to it, ???..,  It
is certain, that the Jews had a notion that the brazen serpent was symbolical
and figurative: Philo the Jew makes it to be a symbol of fortitude and
temperance (t); and
the author of the apocryphal book of Wisdom (u), calls it "a sign of
salvation". They thought there was something mysterious in it: hence they
say (w), 
 

  
 

"in four places it is said,
"make thee", &c. In three places it is explained, viz. Gen_6:14, and one is
not explained, Num_21:8,
"make thee a fiery serpent", ?? ????, is not explained.'' 
 

  
 

And elsewhere (x) they ask, 
 

  
 

"and could the serpent kill,
or make alive? But at the time that
 Israel looked up, and served with
their hearts their Father which is in heaven, they were healed; but if not,
they were brought low.'' 
 

  
 

So that the look was not merely to
the brazen serpent, but to God in heaven; yea, to the word of God, his
essential Logos, as say the Targumists on Num_21:9. The Jerusalem Targum
paraphrases the words thus: 
 

  
 

"and Moses made a serpent of
brass, and put it upon a high place, and whoever was bitten by the serpents,
and lift up his face, in prayer, to his Father which is in heaven, and looked upon
the serpent of brass, lived.'' 
 

  
 

And Jonathan ben Uzziel
paraphrases them thus: 
 

  
 

"and Moses made a serpent of
brass, and put it upon a high place; and it was, when a serpent had bitten any
man, and he looked to the serpent of brass, "and directed his heart",
???? ????? ???,
"to the name of the word of the Lord", he lived.'' 
 

  
 

And this healing they understand
not only of bodily healing, but of the healing of the soul: for they observe (y), that 
 

  
 

"as soon as they said,
"we have sinned", immediately their iniquity was expiated; and they
had the good news brought them "of the healing of the soul", as it is
written, "make thee a seraph"; and he does not say a serpent; and
this is it: "and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten,
when he looketh upon it, shall live", ????? ????, "through the healing of the
soul":'' 
 

  
 

yea, they compare the Messiah to a
serpent; for so the Targum on  Isa_14:29
paraphrases that passage: 
 

  
 

"the Messiah shall come forth
from Jesse's children's children; and his works shall be among you as a
"flying serpent".'' 
 

  
 

And who else can be designed by
the "other serpent of life" (z), and the "holy serpent" (a) they speak of, in
opposition to the evil serpent that seduced Eve? And it is well known, that ???, "a serpent", and ????, "Messiah", are
numerically, or by gematry, the same; a way of interpretation, and explanation,
often in use with the Jews. Now, as this serpent was lifted up on a pole on
high, that every one that was bitten with the fiery serpent might look to it,
and be healed; 
 

  
 

even so must the
son of man be lifted up; upon the cross, and die: the
crucifixion and death of Christ were necessary, and must be, because of the
decrees and purposes of God, by which he was foreordained thereunto, and by which
determinate counsel he was delivered, taken, crucified, and slain; and because
of his own engagements as a surety, laying himself under obligations in the
council and covenant of peace, to suffer, and die, in the room of his people;
and because of the prophecies in the Old Testament, and his own predictions,
that so it should be; as also, that the antitype might answer the type; and
particularly, that he might be a suitable object of faith for wounded sinners,
sensible of sin, to look unto. 
 

  
 

(t) De Agricult.
p. 202. & Allegor. l. 3. p. 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104. (u) C. 16. v. 6. (w) T. Hieros. Roshhashanah, fol. 59. 1. (x) Misn. Roshhashanah,
c. 3. sect. 3. (y)
Tzeror Hammor, fol. 123. 2. (z)
Zohar in Gen fol. 36. 2. (a)
Tikkune Zohar in Jetzira, p. 134.         ---- Notes taken from John Gill?s
commentary.
 

  
 

  
 

2Ki 18:4 ? He (Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of
 Judah began to reign. )  removed the high places,....
 

and broke the
images, and cut down the groves;  and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made; 
 

  
 

for unto those
days the children of Israel did burn incense to it not
from the time it was brought into Canaan, nor even in later times, in the days
of Asa and Jehoshaphat, who would never have suffered it; very probably this
piece of idolatry began in the times of Ahaz, who encouraged everything of that
kind: for this serpent they had a great veneration, being made by Moses, and a
means in his time of healing the Israelites; and they imagined it might be of
some service to them, in a way of mediation to God; and worthy of worship,
having some degree of divinity???..
 

  
 

and he called it
Nehushtan; perceiving they were ensnared by it, and drawn into
idolatry to it, by way of contempt he called it by this name, which signifies
"brass"; suggesting that it was only a mere piece of brass, had no
divinity in it, and could be of no service to them in divine things; and, that
it might no longer be a snare to them, he broke it into pieces; and, as the
Jews (o) say,
ground it to powder, and scattered it to every wind, that there might be no
remains of it. 
 

  
 

  
 

Ki 18:4  He removed the high places, and
brake the pillars, and cut down the Asherah: and he brake in pieces the brazen
serpent that Moses had made; for unto those days the children of Israel did
burn incense to it; and he called it Nehushtan. 
 

2Ki 18:5  He trusted in
Jehovah, the God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the
kings of Judah ,
nor among them
that were before him. 
 

2Ki 18:6  For he clave
to Jehovah; he departed not from following him, but kept his commandments,
which Jehovah commanded Moses. 
 

  
 

(l) See
Dampier's Voyage, vol. 1. p. 411. (m)
Vid. Fabritii Bibliograph. Antiqu. c. 9. sect. 11. (n) Cli Yaker, fol. 538. 2. (o) T. Bab. Avodah Zarah,
fol. 44. 1. ----  notes taken from John Gill?s commentary.
 

  
 

Notice
the very thing that saved the children of
 Israel in the wilderness, became
and idol to them and they looked on it as they worshiped God. Just like the
Golden calf in the wilderness.   If you will notice in the context of the fiery
serpent in the wilderness, the children of Israel 
were traveling around the nations of
 Edom and dealing with them. 
 Israel was
forbidden to ?abhor an Edomite,? on the ground that he was a brother; and
children of the third generation might enter the assembly of the Lord (Deu_23:7 f). War with
 Edom was out of
the question.   Remember what the rabbis say about Edom 
and Rome being
equated together?  Many of the people on this path are coming from Christianity
but when they deal with Idolatry ( and it takes a long time sometimes) they
finally get to were Hezekiah got to: he trusted in YHVH, the God of Israel and
followed the commandments.  As the children of
 Israel looked on the serpent on the
pole, where they putting their faith in YHVH, or in the serpent?  
 

  
 

?trust
in YHVH?
 

Shalom

 

  





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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 30 12:52:42 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:52:42 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <113020071852.27508.47505BFA00040D6D00006B7422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Very well laid out Marvin.  You have captured the entire argument in just afew paragraphs.

A thought came to me awhile ago that I keep coming back to when I feel my musings on this are going astray.  

During the so called "first covenant" when G-d gave Moses the Ten Words on the tablets, the Israelites promptly proceeded to return to the things they new best and fashioned a Golden Calf to in place of G-d's covenant.  What if man in general has done a similar thing with the "new covenant" of the Christian faith, except this time instead of fashioning an idol in lieu of the covenant, we have made the covenant itself into a Golden Calf?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri Nov 30 13:00:31 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:00:31 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga, Part IV..trying to be brief
Message-ID: <ca4.20846865.3481b7cf@aol.com>

Shalom...we're now back in the spring of ''76, and I've begun giving talks to 
Jewish youth groups about my experiences in the Soviet Union, at Shabbatonim 
(weekends including an intensive and spiritual Shabbat experience).  It was 
kind of the "Activist Freak Show" - and I was the entertainment!  However, this 
now exposed me more and more to Jewish guys and girls who were born 
'Orthodox,' came from fully "Orthodox" families and attended Yeshivot - Jewish Day 
Schools.  It showed me how far I had to go in my Jewish education, and spurred me 
on, reading and experiencing more and more.  They didn't know Jewish history 
like I did, but they knew the tefilot (prayers), and many aspects of Jewish life 
that I hadn't 'gotten into' yet.
 
It pushed me to pick up the pace of my Jewish learning, while it pulled me 
further away from my 'secular nationalist' friends in Betar.  Kind of tough to 
talk with them about doing something illegal to help Jews, and having them then 
go and eat a bacon cheese burger....so, I gravitated more and more towards 
Rav Kahane, and the Jewish Defense League.  So, on the one hand, I had these 
Betar pals who were totally dedicated to Israel and Jews, and wanted to live in 
Israel, but couldn't tell the difference between a Mitzva (Commandment from the 
Torah) and McDonald's (or Micheal Jackson, for that matter!).  On the other 
hand, I had new pals who were fully "religious" (don't even get me started on 
what that word means, or doesn't) who learned Torah for a year in Israel (post 
High School - more on those programs later, when I get to my daughters), and 
visited there - but generally didn't want to live there, and didn't feel the 
need (in my case, "OBSESSION") to demonstrate and big 'activist' on behalf of 
Israel, or oppressed Jews.  They certainly  wouldn't do those '.. crazy, 
militant stuff' like I did....I seemed caught between two worlds...and I wasn't even 
20 yet!
 
At that same time, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon (or some spelling like that) 
rented out Yankee Stadium for a major rally, and Christian missionaries were 
out in force in NYC that Summer of the Bicentennial (1976).  It seemed to be 
'open season' on Jewish souls, and it was a time when my 'Jewishness' seemed to 
spring out of me....and I learned and absorbed every aspect of Judaism, and 
prepared to meet the greatest Jewish leader of our time, Rav (Rabbi) Meir Kahane.
 
But before the summer there were a series of arrests of friends of mine on 
various charges of bombings and the shooting of the Soviet Residence, as well as 
others. The group was referred to as, the "Jewish Armed Resistance."  All of 
us 'activists' were suspects, all of us were under suspicion... It seemed 
surreal to step out of the JDL office, and have police photographers take your 
picture, and follow you around.  My phone at home seemed to have slight 'clicks' 
in the background, leading me to conclude that my phone was 'bugged' (yes, 
tapped).  
 
What I'm about to write, only about 6 people in the world know...and now you 
will too:  I actually was there when a shipment of 'black powder' - gunpowder, 
arrived from Philadelphia (it took up half of the car trunk), along with a 
guy by the name of Lloyd Dumont.  My friend Steve said that Lloyd came highly 
recommended by Philly's JDL leadership and could be trusted.  To this day, I'll 
never know what spooked me, but I immediately said, in front of Dumont, 
"Steve, this guy is a cop!"  He seemed squeamish, and denied it, unconvincingly (not 
like Serpico would have done!), and Steve said, "Relax, he's vouched for, we 
can trust him.."  He also added that this 'shipment' would provide enough 
explosives for us to "blow the s--t out of the Russians.."  I said that my gut was 
telling me different, and I walked away....He called after me, telling me I 
was a wimp, and a little "scardy cat.."  he also called me that word that 
starts with a 'p' which is a synonym for a little cat, but no need to write EVERY 
word that will make Ross nuts, right?  Bottom line?  The JDL guys in Philly had 
turned informer for the FBI, Lloyd Dumont WAS a cop....and Steve R wound up 
in prison for several years, for that and other 'actions.'  And I just wound up 
being mentioned in the 40 page indictment as one of five, "unnamed 
coconspirators."  It seemed the 'cases' they had against us five would have weakened 
what they had against the other three guys they put away (Steve R, Russ and Steve 
E, who I barely knew, but figures in another weird anecdote of mine a bit 
later).  But, let's get back to Rav Kahane: 
 
Rav Kahane was to us, the ideal Jew.  The King David type - who could write 
psalms to the L-rd during the night, and then lead the troops into battle the 
next day.  His insights into what it really meant to be a Jew made SUCH sense 
to me (many of his writings are on the internet - please check them out, or 
write to me to suggest some sites).  We even thought that he might turn out to be 
the Messiah.....(we were young and delusional, what can I say?)
 
His was a brand of OLD time, Tanach-type Judaism - where we were expected to 
be Jewish knowledgeable, religiously observant (whatever THAT 
means....everyone defines it somewhat differently), and beat anti-Semites into the ground!  
For example, he always liked to point to the part of Shemot (Exodus), where 
Moshe sees the Egyptian taskmaster beating the Jew.  The Rav would ask 
incredulously - "Did Moshe form a committee to study the root causes of Egyptian 
anti-Semitism?  NO!!!!  He saw a Jew being beaten, and he smote the Egyptian!!"  He 
believed in "the Jewish head, connected to the Jewish fist."  Plain and simple, 
we were to be like the 20th Century Macabees....
 
JDL gained fame with pictures in the paper of tough Jewish guys with pipes 
and bats, preparing to protect a shul, with the tag line under the photo, "Is 
this any way for a nice Jewish boy to behave?"  They organized patrols, 
protected Jewish cemeteries (which were often vandalized), and pushed the 'Jewish 
establishment' groups to get involved in the Soviet Jewry battle.  A number of 
their guys went to prison (different then the guys I mentioned above), too - but 
that is a totally different story.  But back to me...
 
    So, I was selected for this leadership training program and got to sit, 
learning from the Rav - 8 hours a day that summer.  To hear his explanations of 
sections of the Torah, to learn his view of the message of the prophets, and 
to be able to apply this all to NOW, the real world.   ASTOUNDINGLY, I don't 
have the notes from that summer, but wound up (someone handed it to me 8 years 
ago, for 'safekeeping') with audio tapes of those classes!!  If someone knows 
how to digitize stuff - this would be the perfect project.  Before the tapes 
disintegrate.
 
    We met some of Israel's COOLEST people that summer, from the "settlement 
movement" and the and participated in several, major events.  We met Yoel 
Lerner, who was one of the first people involved in both the movement to restore 
the Holy Temple, as well as the Davidic Monarchy (I've always wondered if I've 
got royal blood in my veins..could you imagine?  Hanoch, King of Judah!   LOL 
what a riot THAT would be!!).  We met courageous Jews who were  setting up new 
towns (still called "settlements today..) in Kadum, Elon Moreh, and other 
places.  And then there were the 'actions:'  
 
One, was a settlement attempt that Gush Emunim (those were the pioneers that 
built the towns and villages thought Yehuda (Judea) and Shomron (Samaria), the 
so-called, "West Bank") near Yericho (Jericho).  We were dragged away by the 
Israeli police and troops, but what was crucial was the reason:  Rav Kahane 
told us that we needed to establish more Jewish towns near Yericho, because one 
day, an Israeli government would otherwise be tempted to surrender it to the 
arabs.  This was in 1976.....almost 25 years before the Oslo disaster, and he 
was warning about this THEN!!!!!!!  And he was warning everyone about the arab 
population, and wrote the magnificent, "They Must Go"  A little annecdote - 
while the police were pushing us down the hill (we were wearing heavy backpacks 
- BIG mistake), I actually tried an old football move on two soldiers and left 
them in the dust!  They were pushing me from my right, I leaned into them, 
then spun left, bouncing off them, almost like an off tackle run!!  John Madden 
would have been proud!!  But they weren't fooled by that move a second time...
 
But Rav Kahane knew things that no one else seemed to know....things we 
thought were amazing, tremendous insights on world events, ....We thought he might 
actually have the gift of prophecy, but no, he just was highly intelligent, 
and figured things out....tough things that no one else wanted to deal with, or 
consider (like the arab population growth and Israeli democracy)
 
We also went to Hevron....the heart of Biblical Israel, but currently 
occupied by arabs...there was a Soviet oleh (immigrant) by the name of Professor 
BenTzion Tavger, and he was trying to restore a destroyed, former shul in the 
heart of the city.  Okay, now a bit of a history lesson - The Jewish community of 
Hevron (who had been there since time immemorial) was composed of older, 
religious people, not "Zionist Pioneers."  In 1929, their arab "neighbors" rioted 
and slaughtered them in horrifice ways, mutilating them....I just can't write 
all the details, they are too horrible (see _Click here: The Hebron Massacre of 
1929_ (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron29.html)  
for more information).  
 
They drove out all the Jews, and destroyed every shul and Jewish institution. 
 Professor Tavger had figured out where the (previously) famous 'Beir 
Kenneset Avraham Avinu' (the shul named after our father Avraham).  The arabs had 
turned it into a garbage dump and a sheep pen...allowing trash and feces to 
accumulate where Holy Torah scrolls had been read for generations.  Professor 
Tavger went back, day after day, with the arabs throwing rocks at him, to clear the 
site, piece by piece...soon there were occasional volunteers helping, and the 
Israeli army sent two reservists to guard them.  That's when Rav Kahane sent 
us to help the Professor....we cleared the garbage and debris, and the stones, 
and hoisted them up, and threw them down on the metal arab shanty shacks they 
had established on the site.....We made it clear to those arab squatters that 
this was a JEWISH site, and they were 'not welcome' (we actually used very 
colorful arab curses to make the point, but no need for those details, right?).  
You can see this beautiful shul, fully restored, and used DAILY, in Hevron, 
the next time you're in Israel.  And I actually had the privilege of having had 
a very tiny part of that...
 
coming up next - my first arrest in Israel, my first experience with an Uzi 
submachine gun and my shift to learning Torah first, activism, second....sorry 
this is taking SO long..
 
Shabbat Shalom to all,
        Hanoch







**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Nov 30 12:55:02 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:55:02 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] A Facilitator Note on Subject Line
Message-ID: <bc8.200e60d4.3481b686@aol.com>

Just a reminder that we need to make an attempt to indicate the content of  a 
message in the Subject Line. We have several threads going at once and some  
very interesting dialogue, but the subject lines are blending together.
 
I really appreciate all of the input, sharing and ideas and simply want to  
ensure that we make every effort to categorize things properly so that your  
valuable input does not get lost in the shuffle.
 
Get back to the dialogue!  
 
Shalom, Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Fri Nov 30 13:37:48 2007
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:37:48 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Hangings and Sfat
In-Reply-To: <20071129054212.MPMM9208.aarpub04.charter.net@www2.sssecure.net>
Message-ID: <017901c83388$80258310$653c66c9@bettygivin>

Hi Shimmy and all,

 

I love that quote, very wise.  Thanks Shimmy.  I think you are correct on
the Sfat location for Yeshua's burial place, and yes, if correct, could
bring the house down-in our day! 

 

BTW, did you write a bio?  If so, I missed it.  If so, would you mind
forwarding it to me or sending it out again? 

 

Thanks Shimmy and Shabbat Shalom early!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Shimmy
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:42 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Hangings and Sfat

 

Hi, All, 
Speaking of "hangings," I believe it was Ben Franklin who is often quoted to
have said:  "Let us hang together, or we shall hang separately." Wise words
for all of us in this movement. 

Shimmy

Ps. I have heard that according to some, his grave is supposed to be in the
Galil somewhere, possibly Sfat?  If that is true, and it is not just some
urban legend of his day, it will bring the house down... in our day.

At 04:23 PM 11/28/2007, you wrote:



Hi Dick, Hanoch, all, 
 
Well in that case, I guess there is going to be a lot of hanging going on!
For most of us, it was Yeshua, that brought us to a love and appreciation
for Torah.  And as you said, Hanoch, Yeshua prayed to the G-d of Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob, as do we.  Just because he is more often associated with
Christianity thru his Gentile name, Jesus, should not negate the fact that
he was an observant Jew.
 
I do not remember the reference, but I was somehow under the impression that
according to the Ari, there is a spot somewhere in Israel (I have forgotten
the location) where there is a gravesite attributed to Yeshua and that his
grave, among others, is one that has been visited and venerated by pious
rabbis down thru the ages???  I really dont think I dreamed this. I thought
you might have heard of this Hanoch.  If not, we might need to check with my
brother. 
 
Love & Blessings,
 
Betty/Elisheva 
 
 
 
 
 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
 
Hey Dick - 

   How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it really makes me happy to be
here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an interesting one.
Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority on Jewish Law (Halacha) -
I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role model if someone is
looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.

   Having said that, if referring to the G-d of Yeshua is done in the same
context as the G-d of any other Jew of history (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak,
King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.  

   Ross makes it very clear on the website that Yeshua prayed to the G-d of
Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize that some Rabbi in
Israel is going to hang me one day for having written that, right?   LOL
Only kidding......   :-)  
 
   Best regards Dick!
       Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
                     Hanoch


-----Original Message-----
From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
      Just a question I have had in my mind for some time.  Do you think it
would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers to use in there prayers,
"God of YeShua".
   Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of Israel"  " not as God".

Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...

 

Shalom to all, 

     With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I
write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a
"congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is
you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across as disjointed, I
apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head'  It
seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh......

      In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to
pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy.  As
we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our
shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which
is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no
advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on
our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on....
EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.  

     The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the
'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or
benedictions).  The first two sentences are the following (transliterated
Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei
Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is simple, the meaning behind
it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of
Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."

 

     The obvious question is - why the redundancy?  After all, the G-d of
Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why
does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what I learned, many, many
years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:

    HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or
forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own,
distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but
Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham,
or each other, for that matter.  

     So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem,
to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael.
We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up
for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.  Who knows which of us may
be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees??

    We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at
stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my
daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot
(blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our
People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed
Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his
children:  "And may you always know the difference between what's important,
and what's not."  

 

    May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new
ones....

    B'Ahavat Yisrael,

             Hanoch

 

  _____  

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=ao
lcmp00050000000003>  Mail!

  _____  

_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________ 
_______________________________________________

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 30 13:51:41 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:51:41 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Saga, Part IV..trying to be brief
Message-ID: <113020071951.9900.475069CC000838DD000026AC22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Man this really good stuff Hanoch, I had no idea.  I figured out that we are about the same age, I might have bumped into you when I was a kid for all I know.  Keep it coming, it's like a book I can't put down.

BTW, I just happen to own a digital recording studio if you are serious about preserving those tapes.  I'd be happy to do it and I might even learn something.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Shalom...we're now back in the spring of ''76, and I've begun giving talks to Jewish youth groups about my experiences in the Soviet Union, at Shabbatonim (weekends including an intensive and spiritual Shabbat experience).  It was kind of the "Activist Freak Show" - and I was the entertainment!  However, this now exposed me more and more to Jewish guys and girls who were born 'Orthodox,' came from fully "Orthodox" families and attended Yeshivot - Jewish Day Schools.  It showed me how far I had to go in my Jewish education, and spurred me on, reading and experiencing more and more.  They didn't know Jewish history like I did, but they knew the tefilot (prayers), and many aspects of Jewish life that I hadn't 'gotten into' yet.

It pushed me to pick up the pace of my Jewish learning, while it pulled me further away from my 'secular nationalist' friends in Betar.  Kind of tough to talk with them about doing something illegal to help Jews, and having them then go and eat a bacon cheese burger....so, I gravitated more and more towards Rav Kahane, and the Jewish Defense League.  So, on the one hand, I had these Betar pals who were totally dedicated to Israel and Jews, and wanted to live in Israel, but couldn't tell the difference between a Mitzva (Commandment from the Torah) and McDonald's (or Micheal Jackson, for that matter!).  On the other hand, I had new pals who were fully "religious" (don't even get me started on what that word means, or doesn't) who learned Torah for a year in Israel (post High School - more on those programs later, when I get to my daughters), and visited there - but generally didn't want to live there, and didn't feel the need (in my case, "OBSESSION") to demonstrate and big 'activist
' on behalf of Israel, or oppressed Jews.  They certainly  wouldn't do those '.. crazy, militant stuff' like I did....I seemed caught between two worlds...and I wasn't even 20 yet!

At that same time, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon (or some spelling like that) rented out Yankee Stadium for a major rally, and Christian missionaries were out in force in NYC that Summer of the Bicentennial (1976).  It seemed to be 'open season' on Jewish souls, and it was a time when my 'Jewishness' seemed to spring out of me....and I learned and absorbed every aspect of Judaism, and prepared to meet the greatest Jewish leader of our time, Rav (Rabbi) Meir Kahane.

But before the summer there were a series of arrests of friends of mine on various charges of bombings and the shooting of the Soviet Residence, as well as others. The group was referred to as, the "Jewish Armed Resistance."  All of us 'activists' were suspects, all of us were under suspicion... It seemed surreal to step out of the JDL office, and have police photographers take your picture, and follow you around.  My phone at home seemed to have slight 'clicks' in the background, leading me to conclude that my phone was 'bugged' (yes, tapped).  

What I'm about to write, only about 6 people in the world know...and now you will too:  I actually was there when a shipment of 'black powder' - gunpowder, arrived from Philadelphia (it took up half of the car trunk), along with a guy by the name of Lloyd Dumont.  My friend Steve said that Lloyd came highly recommended by Philly's JDL leadership and could be trusted.  To this day, I'll never know what spooked me, but I immediately said, in front of Dumont, "Steve, this guy is a cop!"  He seemed squeamish, and denied it, unconvincingly (not like Serpico would have done!), and Steve said, "Relax, he's vouched for, we can trust him.."  He also added that this 'shipment' would provide enough explosives for us to "blow the s--t out of the Russians.."  I said that my gut was telling me different, and I walked away....He called after me, telling me I was a wimp, and a little "scardy cat.."  he also called me that word that starts with a 'p' which is a synonym for a little cat, but no need
 to write EVERY word that will make Ross nuts, right?  Bottom line?  The JDL guys in Philly had turned informer for the FBI, Lloyd Dumont WAS a cop....and Steve R wound up in prison for several years, for that and other 'actions.'  And I just wound up being mentioned in the 40 page indictment as one of five, "unnamed coconspirators."  It seemed the 'cases' they had against us five would have weakened what they had against the other three guys they put away (Steve R, Russ and Steve E, who I barely knew, but figures in another weird anecdote of mine a bit later).  But, let's get back to Rav Kahane: 

Rav Kahane was to us, the ideal Jew.  The King David type - who could write psalms to the L-rd during the night, and then lead the troops into battle the next day.  His insights into what it really meant to be a Jew made SUCH sense to me (many of his writings are on the internet - please check them out, or write to me to suggest some sites).  We even thought that he might turn out to be the Messiah.....(we were young and delusional, what can I say?)

His was a brand of OLD time, Tanach-type Judaism - where we were expected to be Jewish knowledgeable, religiously observant (whatever THAT means....everyone defines it somewhat differently), and beat anti-Semites into the ground!  For example, he always liked to point to the part of Shemot (Exodus), where Moshe sees the Egyptian taskmaster beating the Jew.  The Rav would ask incredulously - "Did Moshe form a committee to study the root causes of Egyptian anti-Semitism?  NO!!!!  He saw a Jew being beaten, and he smote the Egyptian!!"  He believed in "the Jewish head, connected to the Jewish fist."  Plain and simple, we were to be like the 20th Century Macabees....

JDL gained fame with pictures in the paper of tough Jewish guys with pipes and bats, preparing to protect a shul, with the tag line under the photo, "Is this any way for a nice Jewish boy to behave?"  They organized patrols, protected Jewish cemeteries (which were often vandalized), and pushed the 'Jewish establishment' groups to get involved in the Soviet Jewry battle.  A number of their guys went to prison (different then the guys I mentioned above), too - but that is a totally different story.  But back to me...

    So, I was selected for this leadership training program and got to sit, learning from the Rav - 8 hours a day that summer.  To hear his explanations of sections of the Torah, to learn his view of the message of the prophets, and to be able to apply this all to NOW, the real world.   ASTOUNDINGLY, I don't have the notes from that summer, but wound up (someone handed it to me 8 years ago, for 'safekeeping') with audio tapes of those classes!!  If someone knows how to digitize stuff - this would be the perfect project.  Before the tapes disintegrate.

    We met some of Israel's COOLEST people that summer, from the "settlement movement" and the and participated in several, major events.  We met Yoel Lerner, who was one of the first people involved in both the movement to restore the Holy Temple, as well as the Davidic Monarchy (I've always wondered if I've got royal blood in my veins..could you imagine?  Hanoch, King of Judah!   LOL what a riot THAT would be!!).  We met courageous Jews who were  setting up new towns (still called "settlements today..) in Kadum, Elon Moreh, and other places.  And then there were the 'actions:'  

One, was a settlement attempt that Gush Emunim (those were the pioneers that built the towns and villages thought Yehuda (Judea) and Shomron (Samaria), the so-called, "West Bank") near Yericho (Jericho).  We were dragged away by the Israeli police and troops, but what was crucial was the reason:  Rav Kahane told us that we needed to establish more Jewish towns near Yericho, because one day, an Israeli government would otherwise be tempted to surrender it to the arabs.  This was in 1976.....almost 25 years before the Oslo disaster, and he was warning about this THEN!!!!!!!  And he was warning everyone about the arab population, and wrote the magnificent, "They Must Go"  A little annecdote - while the police were pushing us down the hill (we were wearing heavy backpacks - BIG mistake), I actually tried an old football move on two soldiers and left them in the dust!  They were pushing me from my right, I leaned into them, then spun left, bouncing off them, almost like an off tackle ru
n!!  John Madden would have been proud!!  But they weren't fooled by that move a second time...

But Rav Kahane knew things that no one else seemed to know....things we thought were amazing, tremendous insights on world events, ....We thought he might actually have the gift of prophecy, but no, he just was highly intelligent, and figured things out....tough things that no one else wanted to deal with, or consider (like the arab population growth and Israeli democracy)

We also went to Hevron....the heart of Biblical Israel, but currently occupied by arabs...there was a Soviet oleh (immigrant) by the name of Professor BenTzion Tavger, and he was trying to restore a destroyed, former shul in the heart of the city.  Okay, now a bit of a history lesson - The Jewish community of Hevron (who had been there since time immemorial) was composed of older, religious people, not "Zionist Pioneers."  In 1929, their arab "neighbors" rioted and slaughtered them in horrifice ways, mutilating them....I just can't write all the details, they are too horrible (see Click here: The Hebron Massacre of 1929 for more information).  

They drove out all the Jews, and destroyed every shul and Jewish institution.  Professor Tavger had figured out where the (previously) famous 'Beir Kenneset Avraham Avinu' (the shul named after our father Avraham).  The arabs had turned it into a garbage dump and a sheep pen...allowing trash and feces to accumulate where Holy Torah scrolls had been read for generations.  Professor Tavger went back, day after day, with the arabs throwing rocks at him, to clear the site, piece by piece...soon there were occasional volunteers helping, and the Israeli army sent two reservists to guard them.  That's when Rav Kahane sent us to help the Professor....we cleared the garbage and debris, and the stones, and hoisted them up, and threw them down on the metal arab shanty shacks they had established on the site.....We made it clear to those arab squatters that this was a JEWISH site, and they were 'not welcome' (we actually used very colorful arab curses to make the point, but no need for those d
etails, right?).  You can see this beautiful shul, fully restored, and used DAILY, in Hevron, the next time you're in Israel.  And I actually had the privilege of having had a very tiny part of that...

coming up next - my first arrest in Israel, my first experience with an Uzi submachine gun and my shift to learning Torah first, activism, second....sorry this is taking SO long..

Shabbat Shalom to all,
        Hanoch










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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Fri Nov 30 14:07:25 2007
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:07:25 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
In-Reply-To: <33058FD8-3467-4BA4-B515-3350303E7599@earthlink.net>
References: <8C9FF421DDD5333-C58-2251@MBLK-M27.sysops.aol.com>
	<C79F154C9D4C460FA5E3309D011CBC81@DickLPC>
	<8CA002FEC2561FB-234C-3B84@mblk-d11.sysops.aol.com>
	<33058FD8-3467-4BA4-B515-3350303E7599@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DB107233BC1D4DFA84D3F6F85C7355B4@DickLPC>

Of Course Yeshua would not use his name. But if the Gentiles used it I think they would eventually feel closer to His God. And maybe they would someday find out he was Jewish.  As some of the new folks are questioning the NT now, as our earlier group in the 80's did, its like starting over again, Yet     I think we must continue to understand and pass on what we learned of the many faults of the NT & continue to help those that are searching. We know that some will back off as we put down their golden calf but some will continue.
    Just some thoughts.  Dick L.
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...


  If we are going to use any designation I really like the idea of referring back to the Fathers, as even Isaac and Jacob did...the God of our Fathers...it is so powerful. To me it means more to pray as Yeshua would pray, i.e., he would not have said "the God of me, Yeshua," but the God of Abraham, if one is wanting to be in sync with him.


  Take care,


  James




  On Nov 28, 2007, at 6:45 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:


    Hey Dick - 

       How are you? Thanks for the welcome back, it really makes me happy to be here!  Now to your question....hmmmmmm.....that's an interesting one.  Remember - I am NOT a Rabbi, I am NOT an authority on Jewish Law (Halacha) - I'm barely an amateur!  And I'm certainly not a role model if someone is looking for a Jewish guy to emulate.

       Having said that, if referring to the G-d of Yeshua is done in the same context as the G-d of any other Jew of history (Avraham, Yaakov, Yitzchak, King David, etc), then it seems to make sense to me.  

       Ross makes it very clear on the website that Yeshua prayed to the G-d of Abraham; the same   G-d we pray to.  You DO realize that some Rabbi in Israel is going to hang me one day for having written that, right?   LOL  Only kidding......   :-)  
     
       Best regards Dick!
           Your pal in the Rotten Apple,
                         Hanoch


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Dick L <rlibby03 at maine.rr.com>
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
    Sent: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 4:42 pm
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...


    Nice to hear from you again Hanoch!
          Just a question I have had in my mind for some time.  Do you think it would be proper for Christians or Gentile believers to use in there prayers, "God of YeShua".
       Same God  I believe. He prayed "to the God of Israel"  " not as God".
      Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...


      Shalom to all, 

           With events that will effect our beloved Eretz Yisrael unfolding as I write this, I urge you all to pray....You don't need to be part of a "congregation," "synagogue" or of a "prayer group" - all it needs to be is you, and HaShem, our Creator.  If this comes across as disjointed, I apologize, but I'm writing very emotionally now, not from 'my head'  It seems I've been doing that a lot lately, sighhhh......

            In a separate note to me, Ross has asked me if I was "..ready to pray.."  and it left me thinking about part of the Yom Kippur liturgy.  As we're standing before HaShem at that time, actually chronicling our shortcomings (to put it mildly..), and we say, "B'en melitz yosher..." which is translated in the Machzor ('High Holiday' prayer book) as, "..we have no advocate.."  In other words, there is no one that will speak to HaShem on our behalf, no one who will intercede...no one else for us to count on.... EXCEPT ourselves, and Avinu Malkenu - our Father, Our King.  

           The central prayer in the three daily prayer services in Judaism is the 'Amidah,' also referred to as the "Shmonah Esreh" - the 18 Blessings (or benedictions).  The first two sentences are the following (transliterated Hebrew, then English):  "Elohenu v'Elohei Avontenu. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, v'Eloehi Yaakov."    The translation is simple, the meaning behind it, a bit more complex. It means, "Our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers. G-d of Abraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob."

           The obvious question is - why the redundancy?  After all, the G-d of Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov (Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the SAME G-d....why does it describe it in THAT manner?  And here's what I learned, many, many years ago, but it has stuck with me ever since:

          HaShem is referred to as the 'G-d of ...' each of our Avot (fathers, or forefathers, if you prefer that term) because they each had their own, distinct relationship with HIM.  Yes, it was the SAME G-d (obviously..), but Yitzchak and Yaakov had a different relationship with him then did Avraham, or each other, for that matter.  

           So it's up to you and me, to form our own relationship(s) with HaShem, to engage HIM in dialogue - to plead directly on behalf of Eretz Yisrael.  We have no 'melitz yosher' - no advocate, or spokesperson that will step up for us, it's up to each of us to do what we can.  Who knows which of us may be the one that can cause the effect to save us from the evil decrees??

          We failed to save Gush Katif....may we not fail now, when so much is at stake.  You know, every Shabbat evening (Friday night), as I've blessed my daughters, I have added the following to the traditional brachot (blessings): "And may you always be faithful to our Torah, our Land and our People," and then I add something I learned from my teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood), that he said to his children:  "And may you always know the difference between what's important, and what's not."  

          May I give those brachot to you all - all my old friends, and my new ones....

          B'Ahavat Yisrael,
                   Hanoch


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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri Nov 30 14:13:03 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:13:03 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] A Sincere Apology
Message-ID: <bc5.1ee768e8.3481c8cf@aol.com>

Dear List and James, 
 
    There was a private note that I wrote to James, that I mistakenly routed 
to this list.  I deeply apologize to James, and to all of you.  It was a very 
stupid error on my part, and I am humilated beyond belief.  This is SO 
embarassing...
 
    Please forgive - 
 
    Shabbat Shalom from a VERY red-faced Hanoch



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Fri Nov 30 14:20:05 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:20:05 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A Facilitator Note on Subject Line
In-Reply-To: <bc8.200e60d4.3481b686@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A566F@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Hey Ross,

 

I didn't receive the photo James sent, could you please forward it to
me.

 

John C.

"Be Excellent to Each Other!"

                      Bill & Ted

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] A Facilitator Note on Subject Line

 

Just a reminder that we need to make an attempt to indicate the content
of a message in the Subject Line. We have several threads going at once
and some very interesting dialogue, but the subject lines are blending
together.

 

I really appreciate all of the input, sharing and ideas and simply want
to ensure that we make every effort to categorize things properly so
that your valuable input does not get lost in the shuffle.

 

Get back to the dialogue!  

 

Shalom, Ross

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 





________________________________

Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products
<http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop0003000000000
1>  and top money wasters
<http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolto
p00030000000002>  of 2007.

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From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri Nov 30 13:56:35 2007
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:56:35 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Private NOTE re:This not-so-short saga, Part II
Message-ID: <c98.237278e3.3481c4f3@aol.com>

Dear James, 
 
    I AM totally blown away by the kind words....you've always had tremendous 
faith in how I can help, and frankly, I've been totally disappointed by my 
lack of accomplishment(s).  Thank you again, and please feel free to post my 
ongoing saga to the UI list, it would be my pleasure to share that info with the 
crew.
 
It's going to soon begin to build to a certain crescendo, and everyone will 
clearly see 'where' I'm coming from.  And once again, thanks for the words of 
support last weekend.  My life seems to be slowly going down the toilet bowl, 
swirling around, and around.  Believe it or not - writing this stuff is helping 
me keep my sanity.  It's bad James, real bad....but I am trying to keep my 
head above water......Thanks for the encouragement to write, and the willingness 
to share that stuff...maybe it would make a good book one day - LOL  :-)
 
    Shabbat Shalom,
        Hanoch



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From JCARLSO at entergy.com  Fri Nov 30 14:29:45 2007
From: JCARLSO at entergy.com (CARLSON, JOHN S)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:29:45 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A Sincere Apology
In-Reply-To: <bc5.1ee768e8.3481c8cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5670@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>

Not?  What note?  ;-{)}

 

John C.

"Be Excellent to Each Other!"

                      Bill & Ted

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:13 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] A Sincere Apology

 

Dear List and James, 

 

    There was a private note that I wrote to James, that I mistakenly
routed to this list.  I deeply apologize to James, and to all of you.
It was a very stupid error on my part, and I am humilated beyond belief.
This is SO embarassing...

 

    Please forgive - 

 

    Shabbat Shalom from a VERY red-faced Hanoch





________________________________

Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products
<http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop0003000000000
1>  and top money wasters
<http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolto
p00030000000002>  of 2007.

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 30 14:53:32 2007
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:53:32 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Sincere Apology
In-Reply-To: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5670@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
References: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5670@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
Message-ID: <225BB6A6-193B-4E66-9D51-B7930909BB8A@earthlink.net>

Hanoch you should not worry a bit. We are a close and supportive group  
and what you wrote was fine.

Shabbat Shalom,

James

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 30, 2007, at 3:29 PM, "CARLSON, JOHN S" <JCARLSO at entergy.com>  
wrote:

> Not?  What note?  ;-{)}
>
>
>
> John C.
>
> "Be Excellent to Each Other!"
>
>                       Bill & Ted
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:13 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] A Sincere Apology
>
>
>
> Dear List and James,
>
>
>
>     There was a private note that I wrote to James, that I  
> mistakenly routed to this list.  I deeply apologize to James, and to  
> all of you.  It was a very stupid error on my part, and I am  
> humilated beyond belief.  This is SO embarassing...
>
>
>
>     Please forgive -
>
>
>
>     Shabbat Shalom from a VERY red-faced Hanoch
>
>
>
>
> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top  
> money wasters of 2007.
> _______________________________________________
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 30 12:21:51 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:21:51 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
Message-ID: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Very well laid out Marvin.  You have captured the entire argument in just afew paragraphs.

A thought came to me awhile ago that I keep coming back to when I feel my musings on this are going astray.  

During the so called "first covenant" when G-d gave Moses the Ten Words on the tablets, the Israelites promptly proceeded to return to the things they new best and fashioned a Golden Calf to in place of G-d's covenant.  What if man in general has done a similar thing with the "new covenant" of the Christian faith, except this time instead of fashioning an idol in lieu of the covenant, we have made the covenant itself into a Golden Calf?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from "mhyde" <mhyde7 at tds.net>: -------------- 


Joh 3:14?  "And as Moshe lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 
Joh 3:15?  "that whoever believes in Him may have eternal life. 
Joh 3:16?  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 
Joh 3:17?  "For God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 
 
>From Jesus own words as recorded in the N.T. writings, what was his mission? What / whom did he say he came to?
 
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness - ? Jesus proceeds in this and the following verses to state the reason why he came into the world and, in order to this, he illustrates His design, and the efficacy of his coming, by a reference to the case of the brass serpent, recorded in Num_21:8-9. 
 
Num 21:8?  And the LORD3068 said559 unto413 Moses,4872 Make6213 thee a fiery serpent,8314 and set7760 it upon5921 a pole:5251 and it shall come to pass,1961 that every one3605 that is bitten,5391 when he looketh upon7200 it, shall live.2425 
Num 21:9?  And Moses4872 made6213 a serpent5175 of brass,5178 and put7760 it upon5921 a pole,5251 and it came to pass,1961 that if518 a serpent5175 had bitten5391 (853) any man,376 when he beheld5027, 413 the serpent5175 of brass,5178 he lived.2425 
 
The people were bitten by flying fiery serpents. There was no cure for the bite. Moses was directed to make an image of the serpent, and place it in sight of the people, that they might look on it and be healed. There is no evidence that this was intended to be a type of the Messiah, but it is used by Jesus as strikingly illustrating his work.
 
Joh 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,.... The history referred to is in Num_21:8. There is, in many things, an agreement between this serpent, and Jesus Christ: as in the matter of it, it was a brazen serpent; it was made not of gold, nor of silver, but of brass, the meaner metal, and was a very unlikely means, of itself, to heal the Israelites; and might be despised by many: this may denote the meanness of Christ in his human nature, in his birth and parentage, and place of education and converse; and especially in his crucifixion and death; and which, to an eye of carnal sense and reason, seemed a very improbable means of saving sinners; and therefore were to some a stumbling block, and to others foolishness: though on the other hand, as brass is a shining metal, and might be chose for the serpent in the wilderness to be made of, that by the lustre of it the eyes of the Israelites might be attracted and directed to it, ?????????..,?  It is certain, that
 the Jews had a notion that the brazen serpent was symbolical and figurative: Philo the Jew makes it to be a symbol of fortitude and temperance (t); and the author of the apocryphal book of Wisdom (u), calls it "a sign of salvation". They thought there was something mysterious in it: hence they say (w), 
 
"in four places it is said, "make thee", &c. In three places it is explained, viz. Gen_6:14, and one is not explained, Num_21:8, "make thee a fiery serpent", ???? ????????, is not explained.'' 
 
And elsewhere (x) they ask, 
 
"and could the serpent kill, or make alive? But at the time that Israel looked up, and served with their hearts their Father which is in heaven, they were healed; but if not, they were brought low.'' 
 
So that the look was not merely to the brazen serpent, but to God in heaven; yea, to the word of God, his essential Logos, as say the Targumists on Num_21:9. The Jerusalem Targum paraphrases the words thus: 
 
"and Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a high place, and whoever was bitten by the serpents, and lift up his face, in prayer, to his Father which is in heaven, and looked upon the serpent of brass, lived.'' 
 
And Jonathan ben Uzziel paraphrases them thus: 
 
"and Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a high place; and it was, when a serpent had bitten any man, and he looked to the serpent of brass, "and directed his heart", ???????? ?????????? ??????, "to the name of the word of the Lord", he lived.'' 
 
And this healing they understand not only of bodily healing, but of the healing of the soul: for they observe (y), that 
 
"as soon as they said, "we have sinned", immediately their iniquity was expiated; and they had the good news brought them "of the healing of the soul", as it is written, "make thee a seraph"; and he does not say a serpent; and this is it: "and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live", ?????????? ??? ????, "through the healing of the soul":'' 
 
yea, they compare the Messiah to a serpent; for so the Targum on?  Isa_14:29 paraphrases that passage: 
 
"the Messiah shall come forth from Jesse's children's children; and his works shall be among you as a "flying serpent".'' 
 
And who else can be designed by the "other serpent of life" (z), and the "holy serpent" (a) they speak of, in opposition to the evil serpent that seduced Eve? And it is well known, that ? ????, "a serpent", and ????????, "Messiah", are numerically, or by gematry, the same; a way of interpretation, and explanation, often in use with the Jews. Now, as this serpent was lifted up on a pole on high, that every one that was bitten with the fiery serpent might look to it, and be healed; 
 
even so must the son of man be lifted up; upon the cross, and die: the crucifixion and death of Christ were necessary, and must be, because of the decrees and purposes of God, by which he was foreordained thereunto, and by which determinate counsel he was delivered, taken, crucified, and slain; and because of his own engagements as a surety, laying himself under obligations in the council and covenant of peace, to suffer, and die, in the room of his people; and because of the prophecies in the Old Testament, and his own predictions, that so it should be; as also, that the antitype might answer the type; and particularly, that he might be a suitable object of faith for wounded sinners, sensible of sin, to look unto. 
 
(t) De Agricult. p. 202. & Allegor. l. 3. p. 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104. (u) C. 16. v. 6. (w) T. Hieros. Roshhashanah, fol. 59. 1. (x) Misn. Roshhashanah, c. 3. sect. 3. (y) Tzeror Hammor, fol. 123. 2. (z) Zohar in Gen fol. 36. 2. (a) Tikkune Zohar in Jetzira, p. 134. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ---- Notes taken from John Gill???s commentary.
 
 
2Ki 18:4 ??? He (Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. )?  removed the high places,....
and broke the images, and cut down the groves;?  and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made; 
 
for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it not from the time it was brought into Canaan, nor even in later times, in the days of Asa and Jehoshaphat, who would never have suffered it; very probably this piece of idolatry began in the times of Ahaz, who encouraged everything of that kind: for this serpent they had a great veneration, being made by Moses, and a means in his time of healing the Israelites; and they imagined it might be of some service to them, in a way of mediation to God; and worthy of worship, having some degree of divinity?????????..
 
and he called it Nehushtan; perceiving they were ensnared by it, and drawn into idolatry to it, by way of contempt he called it by this name, which signifies "brass"; suggesting that it was only a mere piece of brass, had no divinity in it, and could be of no service to them in divine things; and, that it might no longer be a snare to them, he broke it into pieces; and, as the Jews (o) say, ground it to powder, and scattered it to every wind, that there might be no remains of it. 
 
 
Ki 18:4?  He removed the high places, and brake the pillars, and cut down the Asherah: and he brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made; for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it; and he called it Nehushtan. 
2Ki 18:5?  He trusted in Jehovah, the God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among them that were before him. 
2Ki 18:6?  For he clave to Jehovah; he departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which Jehovah commanded Moses. 
 
(l) See Dampier's Voyage, vol. 1. p. 411. (m) Vid. Fabritii Bibliograph. Antiqu. c. 9. sect. 11. (n) Cli Yaker, fol. 538. 2. (o) T. Bab. Avodah Zarah, fol. 44. 1. ----?  notes taken from John Gill???s commentary.
 
Notice the very thing that saved the children of Israel in the wilderness, became and idol to them and they looked on it as they worshiped God. Just like the Golden calf in the wilderness.? ?  If you will notice in the context of the fiery serpent in the wilderness, the children of Israel were traveling around the nations of Edom and dealing with them.?  Israel was forbidden to ???abhor an Edomite,??? on the ground that he was a brother; and children of the third generation might enter the assembly of the Lord (Deu_23:7 f). War with Edom was out of the question.? ?  Remember what the rabbis say about Edom and Rome being equated together??  Many of the people on this path are coming from Christianity but when they deal with Idolatry ( and it takes a long time sometimes) they finally get to were Hezekiah got to: he trusted in YHVH, the God of Israel and followed the commandments.?  As the children of Israel looked on the serpent on the pole, where they putting their faith in YHVH, or
 in the serpent??  
 
???trust in YHVH???
Shalom 
 
 
 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of roy landry
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
 
Denny,
 
You ask a question.  Is the idea that Yeshua is my savior also something I  
should be letting go of?  
This is something that I have been thinking about as well.  Just this week I discovered that the word Yesuha means Salvation.  
 I have waited for thy salvation ??????;t??=u*Wvyl??! 
O Lord.   Gen 49:18
KJV
 
This next verse is quoted by Christians all the time.    
Isa 52:7
7 How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of him who brings good news,
proclaiming shalom, bringing good news
of good things, announcing salvation (Yesuha)
and saying to Tziyon, ???Your God is King!??? 
 

Matt 1:21
21 "She will bear a Son; and A you shall call His name Jesus (Yesuha), for 1 He B will save His people from their sins." 
 
He was named Yesuha because it means salvation or God???s Salvation.  At least that is my limited understanding of the Hebrew.  
 
Does this explain what Jesus meant when he spoke with Nicodemus and said that the Son of Man is lifted up like a serpent on a standard?  Does this mean that the name of Jesus Christ means ???Gods anointed Savior????
 
I have never heard anyone talk about this so I assume I have made a mistake somewhere.  Please help me understand what I don???t see?
 
Roy
 
-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 11:28 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
 
Denny,
 
To your question of the difficulty of letting go of Christian baggage?  I
can only speak for myself, but I can also speak of what I have observed for
the last 15 years.  The deeper your embedded in the doctrines of the church
the harder it seems, to be able to free yourself. Painting with a large
brush...  most Christians attend church regularly but do not really
understand the teachings they listen to, those of us who have been more
studious and dedicated in our religious life seem to have more trouble
removing our self from the false teaching.  For me, my temperament and
personality,  I could not just take the thoughts and ideals of others, I had
to study, and wrestle with the text and the ideals and concepts till slowly
one gave way to another.  By doing this till I was settled in my own mind
then I was able to move to the next part of the study.  I think to one
degree or another most of us will have to spend our on 40 years in the
wilderness, so to speak as we return to our creator.  The important point is
that we continue to "push forward" and "never give up". This journey will
take the rest our life's.
 
I have observed some folk who progress very fast and easy in some areas, but
then seem to not be able to get pass .....   what I thought were easy simple
hurdles.  So, we each travel at our on pace. For a long time the N.T.
movement (early church) considered it's self a part of Judaism and the
synagogue. History records it's first 15 or so bishops or leaders were
circumcised Jews.  A close reading of the book of acts shows Jews and
gentiles, together, to some degree.  Also, it shows Jews who believed Paul's
message and Jews who did not believe..... but still they were in the
synagogue each Sabbath day. Studying and learning and diologue-ing together.
And nowhere in the Book of Acts do we see "unbelieving" Jews being told that
if they did not walk the "Roman road", they were going to hell.  This was a
later product of Christianity. 
 
R.M. Grant in "The New Testament Cannon" p. 293, concludes that the N.
T. gospels and epistles did not gain acceptance as scripture until the
middle of the second century. The Apostolic fathers treated the sayings of
Jesus and Pauline epistles as authoritative for the Christian movement but
they did not treat them the same as or equal to scripture. Therefore, we can
conclude that the early church was studying the Torah and the prophets. 
 
I was looking at a book the other day I had read years ago by Richard
Rubenstein, "When Jesus became God" In his preface he said that as a Jew one
reason the Arian controversy interested him so much, "is that because before
it ended, the Jews and Christians could talk to each other and argue among
themselves about crucial issues like the divinity of Jesus, the meaning of
salvation, basic ethical standards.... everything. They disagreed strongly
about many things, but there was still a closeness between them. They
participated in the same moral culture. When the controversy ended - when
Jesus became God - that closeness faded."  The council of Nicaea delivered
the death blow, and it took over 40 years and nine more council's for the
church to consolidate their position.  From My personal experience this is
one of the biggest pieces of baggage we have to get rid of first, to
understand he was a man on a mission, but not God.
 
Take care,
Marvin  
 
-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:34 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Power of Prayer and the relationship with G-d...
 
Glenn,
 
Thanks for your candid thoughts. As I put myself in the New Testament  
writer's shoes, I can't help but think that they did not consider what  
they were writing to be scripture. They understood what scripture was  
and that is what they lived by.  And Yeshua spoke and taught from that  
same recognized scripture. That is where I am starting and have to  
admit that I wish I understood more of Torah. I have sadly neglected  
it all these years growing up in the church.
 
I really want to know what it was that Yeshua told the disciples while  
on the road to Emmaus concerning himself and Torah.  Do you think  
there was more to his life that just to show us how to live a Torah  
observant life? Is the idea that Yeshua is my savior also something I  
should be letting go of?
 
I wonder if you or others might share more concerning what you think  
the specific lies are that Christianity has foisted upon us. It is  
obvious by reading your stories and some of the dates that you all  
have been down this road much longer than I. Was it difficult for you  
to let go of all the Christian baggage?
 
Hungry to learn more,
 
Denny
 
 
On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:00 PM, chattertonw at bellsouth.net wrote:
 
> Denny, Glenn again... to add to my previous response... I am not  
> saying that the NT is not Canon... for ME right NOW, I am taking a  
> big step backward and attempting to sort out the lies from the  
> truth. I also have that deep sense of having been betrayed.
> 
> As for the veracity of the texts - well, I'm not sure, because it is  
> clear from even minimal research that changes have been made. Add to  
> that the nefarious dealings of those who killed Jews who refused to  
> accept their doctrine, who were the keepers of these texts for  
> centuries... well, I think you see my point.
> 
> For me, I am confident that God has left me a written instruction  
> of how to live my life... and it is in the Torah. Beyond that, I am  
> willing to entertain lots of discussion!
> _______________________________________________
 
_______________________________________________
 
 
_______________________________________________
 
 
-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.10/1159 - Release Date: 11/29/2007 11:10 AM
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From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Fri Nov 30 14:25:51 2007
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:25:51 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] ] Hanoch's Picture
In-Reply-To: <BAY115-W356CA2CE21FCE138AA3DFFBA710@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY115-W356CA2CE21FCE138AA3DFFBA710@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0928E34BBD71473A9B7F03D2D585780D@DickLPC>

Just thought I'd add a few.  Dick L.
  Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch's Picture


  Y'all did it again!  I came in tonight and my emails are overflowing! This is wonderful!  
   
  Hanoch, I love Part II, and I think the photo James sent of everyone grabbing your tzittzit should be put in ROF's Names and Faces.  It's just a terrific picture, and it says it all!!!!!
   
  Hope I get surprised like this every night!
   
  Love,
   
  Pat  



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From dennyj at mac.com  Fri Nov 30 15:12:20 2007
From: dennyj at mac.com (Denny and Mary Joyce Johnson)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:12:20 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Prophecy concerning USA and Annapolis Meeting
In-Reply-To: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <113020071821.20835.475054BE000EFF710000516322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <75BBB083-0116-1000-C689-FFE2C076497B-Webmail-10014@mac.com>

Hello all,

I rarely forward forwards from my email but this one struck me. In fact, I rarely read forwards sent to me. I normally delete them without reading, especially if the sender didn't append any comments in the beginning.

Considering the conversation and prayer about Israel and the Annapolis meeting, this seemed fitting to post in our discussion group. The last time we were involved in things like this, Katrina struck Louisiana. I know that many thought that was a judgement of God. I really couldn't say. 

What do you think of this:


Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:16 AM
Subject: EXTREMELY URGENT-PLEASE READ ASAP-GREAT DANGER FOR THE USA THIS WEEK-DAVID HERZOG RECEIVES PROPHETIC WARNING FOR THE USA- THE GLORY ZONE NEWS

DAVID & STEPHANIE HERZOG
THE GLORY ZONE NEWS
D.H.M.



EXTREMELY URGENT!   
USA IN GREAT DANGER THIS WEEK!

This is the most urgent email we have sent so far. We have just returned from speaking inside the U.N. in New York last week. Here is what is happening right now in the Spirit and the warning for the USA this week.


ANAPOLIS, MARYLAND MEETING: PLAN: The U.S. is hosting a 3 day meeting in Anapolis, Maryland called a "Peace Summit." We have been receiving great and severe warning from the Lord concerning this meeting for the entire USA. 
In a nutshell the USA is leading the pack in pressuring Israel during this meeting to:

1) Divide Jerusalem and give the Temple Mount to the Muslims
2) To cede all of Judea and Samaria and allow the establishment of an Arab terrorist state called Palestine with Jerusalem as its capital. ("West Bank" is the biblical Judea and Samaria, the heartland of Israel promised to the Jewish people by God's everlasting covenant.)
3) To give Palestinians control of the mountain ridge overlooking Israel, placing all the large population centers within range of Katusha rockets.
4) To expel hundreds of thousands of Jews from their cities in Israel, thus changing the entire demographics of the nation of Israel.

Every time the USA has attempted to pressure Israel to give up covenant land we have had direct results of disaster with hours and days, often within 24 hours.

The last time I felt such a heavy burden for the USA was in the summer of 2005. The US pressured Israel to follow through in evacuating thousands of Jews from Gaza and to give it up. As I watched this unfold a sense of impending judgment was felt. I told my wife and friends that something BIG was about to happen and that we needed to pray for God's mercy. Shortly after we were driving through New Orleans. We were living in Florida at the time. During this time God led us to leave the southeast and move back to Arizona. As were drove across the country we were told to not stay the night in New Orleans but to pray for mercy not fully understanding why. When we arrived in Arizona we turned on the news to discover we had just escaped Hurricane Katrina by a few days and saw the devastation. The Lord showed us that this was a direct result of "cause and affect" due to Israel being pressured by the US to give up land. To this day there are still homeless Jews living in hotels, tents and from place to place across Israel as they lost everything in Gaza, the same holds true for thousands of people that used to live in New Orleans. There are many parallels including the fact that Gaza's loss had the same direct impact on the Israeli ecomony as New Orleans did to the US economy due to the fact and Gaza was a major agricultural region for Israel.

Another time I felt this strange sense was on 2 other occasions. 
One was when President Bush announced he would be the first President to give the "Palestinians" a homeland by dividing the God given land of Israel. When I heard this my spirit was greatly saddened. Within 24 hours 911 hit. Another time he spoke these same words while we were visiting Israel. The next day the Space Shuttle blew up with an Israeli and US astronauts on board. The headlines were that the Space Shuttle divided and separated in mid- air over  the city of "Palestine, Texas." This was another major wake-up call concerning this issue. Several days later while in Jerusalem I had a dream in which I met Pres. Bush and I told him that I had fasted and prayed for him to be elected during his first election but that the Lord his telling him to please not divide Jerusalem or judgment would fall on the USA. As I said this tears welled up in my eyes in the dream and Pres. bush put his hands on my shoulder as he also started to tear for a brief moment. The Lord opened the door for me to pray inside the White House first the East Wing and shortly after the Lord opened up the west wing for us to pray in the oval office, press room and other key rooms. The same prayer and declaration came into our spirit not knowing what was going on behind the scenes, praying that the US would not succeed as the nation that accomplished the dividing of Israel.

Recently the Lord told me to go into the U.N. and declare the glory of God, and also declare that confusion come to those in the U.N. that are also greatly influencing the division of Israel. We went in as God supernaturally opened the door immediately after God spoke this word to me and did exactly that and we felt a major rumbling in the Spirit. Not understanding fully at the time how the U.N. was so key in all of these we now know. The "Peace Summit" is planned for November 27-29. November 29, is exactly 60 years to the day when the UN first voted to partition (divide) the Land of Israel under the British control at the time. What is re-occuring is using the same plan that originated with the UN and have it occur on the same day. Thus the reason the Lord sent us into the U.N. to blow the trumpet. (When Britain agreed to divide the land, England lost every colony worldwide starting with losing the influence and control it had over Israel. Now America is the key player that calls the shots and tell Israel what it can and cannot do. We really need to pray and fast the next 3 days like never before.

The Bible clearly talks about impending judgment on any nation that would divide the land of Israel.

Joel 3:2  "...there I will deal with and execute judgment upon them for My people and My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations and because they have divided up My land."

The Bible goes on in explaining that the land of Israel was given by God not man to the Jewish people.

Psalm 105:9, "Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath with Isaac;  And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant; saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance."

At this moment the full power of the United States is doing everything in it's power to succeed at dividing the land of Israel and Jerusalem this week. We as a nation are on a major collision course with God Himself and His covenant with Israel even though we are also the greatest nation with the most blessings, more Christian influence and more lovers of God and Israel among its citizens than any other nation yet no nation has ever touched the apple of His eye without severe and quick retribution.  We love the USA and are so burdened for the harvest of souls and this nation that I was born and grew up in allowing me to be saved at a very young age due to the gospel being freely preached to us.

Recently I spoke at a conference in Wisconsin as I began to share to the people about this concern and about our U.N. meeting that was coming up. I shared that major shaking was coming and it could come in many forms and that I felt there was something this time with earthquakes. After the meeting I had some time alone with the Bob Jones, one of the few high level prophetic voices alive today. I shared my concern and asked him what he believed could happen if America helped divide Israel. He very clearly told me that if the USA were to succeed that there would very likely be the physical division of the land of America in a major earthquake along the New Madrid Fault that runs exactly through the center of the country all the way from Chicago to Missisippi. He said that he prophesied this many years ago that it would happen but that this is what could be the thing that ignites it. Today I received emails from 2 totally different ministries that mentioned this same possibility concerning the New Madrid Fault Line dividing our nation. 
The true mature prophetic ministries should be hearing God speak about something as earthshaking and important as this. Those prophetic voices called to sound the trumpet who do not warn God's people about what is happening or who seem to not have any revelation concerning Israel's connection to America, revival and harvest and the nations need to ask God to take off the blinders or the "busyness" of ministry that have caused them to lose their prophetic edge. God does nothing but that he first reveals it to his servants or prophets. We are actually very shocked that there are not many more voices that seem to hear God's voice not even hinting, speaking or writing their followers on the importance of this matter and to sound a clear alarm to pray. 

As you know we are totally into revival, harvest, miracles, souls and an "all things are possible" mindset. It is not every day that we send something like this, on the contrary. But this sense has become so strong again we must alert all of you that pray for us, support us and read our emails to stand with us in praying that 
1) The "Peace Sumit"  would come to nothing
2) Ask God to remove any and all blinders from our current US President and adminstration concerning dividing Israel.
3) If somehow an agreement is reached pray for major mercy in the midst of judgment over the USA to lessen the casualties and that great harvest would come as a result of any shaking or judgment that could come.

God is asking for all believers in the Lord to pray as the verse below clearly explains.

Isaish 62:6-7, "O Jerusalem, I have posted watchmen on your walls; they will pray day and night, continually. Take no rest, ALL YOU WHO PRAY TO THE LORD. Give no rest until he completes His work, until He makes Jerusalem the pride of the earth"

 WE SAID ALL THIS TO SAY THAT IF YOU LOVE THIS NATION AS WE DO PLEASE PRAY AND FAST DURING THE NEXT 3 DAYS AND ALERT EVERYONE YOU KNOW TO PRAY CONCERNING THIS. 

PLEASE PASS THIS EMAIL ON TO THOSE THAT WILL PRAY...

THANKS FOR LETTING US KNOW YOU ARE PRAYING

We thank you so much for your prayers and for standing with us,

David & Stephanie Herzog

Bringing the Kingdom to where we live, work, and play.




From b.nelson at alaska.com  Fri Nov 30 17:12:49 2007
From: b.nelson at alaska.com (Bonnie Nelson)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:12:49 -0900
Subject: [Dialogue] The Shalom Center requests that this message be passed
	on to friends
References: <002201c83367$a7735260$c701000a@RabbiGershon>
Message-ID: <B5A6906D-A2BC-4B92-97D1-B0515CE34CBD@alaska.com>

Hello,
	I am new to this very good dialoging on many different threads.  One  
of the very good things I have learned from my Rabbi friends that is  
different from Christians is they like and encourage everyone  
thinking and believing differently.  Most Christians seem to think it  
is important for everyone to think like them because they know what  
God thinks, more than Jews, Muslims or Buddhists, etc..  My Rabbi  
teacher tells me there is only One God and He or She loves All  
people, not just the children of Israel. The other wonderful thing he  
has taught me different from most Christians is how important deeds  
(including political activism) are for bringing about Tikkun Olam.   
My Rabbi teacher asked me to pass on this message from his friend who  
is the Director of the Shalom Center.
	I plan to listen to Ross on Saturday for the first time, live.  I  
have listened to some of his archives.  I am going to be very busy  
reading so many wonderful emails. I agree that Hanoch's story would  
be a good book
Bonnie

The Shalom Center requests that this message be passed on to friends
http://www.shalomctr.org/taxonomy_menu/1/1

>
>
> On the first night of Hanukkah,
> my true love said to me -
> "Let's buy wind-power for
> E-lec-tri-city"!
>
> On the fourth night of Hanukkah,
> my rabbi said to me -
> "Car-pool tonight!
> Give the Breath of Life
> A chance to catch new breath
> When we gather to chant of our delight!"
>
> On the eighth night of Hanukkah,
> My granddaughter said to me:
> "Sit down and write!
> Our Senators should know that I need to grow
> And that means we should cut the CO2!"
>
> The Eight Days of Hanukkah:
> Eight Actions to Heal the Earth
> through the Green Menorah Covenant
>
> Please share this message with your friends, congregants, etc --  
> and post the "eight-day actions" on your refrigerator door. Then  
> act on them!
>
>
?
> A Prophetic Voice in Jewish, Multireligious, and American Life
>

>
> On Hanukkah, we are taught not only to light the menorah night by  
> night, but to publicize the miracle, to turn our individual actions  
> outward for the rest of the world to see and to be inspired by.
>
>
> So we invite you to join, this Hanukkah, in The Shalom Center 's  
> Green Menorah Covenant for taking action - personal, communal, and  
> political - to heal the earth from the global climate crisis.
>
> After lighting your menorah each evening, dedicate yourself to  
> making the changes in your life that will allow our limited sources  
> of energy to last for as long as they're needed, and with minimal  
> impact on our climate.
>
> No single action will solve the global climate crisis, just as no  
> one of us alone can make enough of a difference. Yet, if we act on  
> as many of the areas below as possible, and act together, a  
> seemingly small group of people can overcome a seemingly  
> intractable crisis. We can, as in days of old, turn this time of  
> darkness into one of light.
>
> Day 1: Personal/Household: Call your electric-power utility to  
> switch to wind-powered electricity. (For each home, 100% wind-power  
> reduces CO2 emissions the same as not driving 20,000 miles in one  
> year.)
>
> Day 2: Synagogue, Hillel, or JCC: Urge your congregation or  
> community building to switch to wind-powered electricity.
>
> Day 3. Your network of friends, IM buddies, and members of civic or  
> professional groups you belong to: Connect with people like  
> newspaper editors, real-estate developers, architects, bankers,  
> etc. to urge them to strengthen the green factor in all their  
> decisions, speeches, and actions.
>
> Day 4 (which this year is Shabbat). Automobile: If possible, choose  
> today or one other day a week to not use your car at all. Other  
> days, lessen driving. Shop on-line. Cluster errands. Carpool. Don't  
> idle engine beyond 20 seconds.
>
> Day 5: Workplace or College: Urge the top officials to arrange an  
> energy audit. Check with utility company about getting one free or  
> at low-cost.
>
> Day 6: Town/City: Urge town/city officials to require greening of  
> buildings through ordinances and executive orders. Creating change  
> is often easier on the local level!
>
> Day 7: State: Urge state representatives to reduce subsidies for  
> highways, increase them for mass transit.
>
> Day 8: National: Urge your Senators to strengthen and pass the  
> Lieberman-Warner "America's Climate Security Act." For easy  
> addressing and a model letter to send them, go to --
>
> http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/602/t/4181/campaign.jsp? 
> campaign_KEY=21544
> Make our planet's Hanukkah a happy one!
> -     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -_
>  From Rabbis Arthur Waskow & Jeff Sultar of The Shalom Center and  
> its Green Menorah Covenant.
>
> ??? For more information, to explore having your congregation or  
> community becoming a partner in the Green Menorah Covenant, or to  
> arrange for Green Menorah resource people to visit your community,  
> please contact Rabbi Sultar at greenmenorah at shalomctr.org or (215)  
> 438-2983.
>
> Please remember to share this message with your friends,  
> congregants, etc - and post the "eight-day actions" on your  
> refrigerator door.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Nov 30 17:42:56 2007
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:42:56 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] The Shalom Center requests that this message be passed
	on to f...
Message-ID: <c4c.23e4fe16.3481fa00@aol.com>

Dear Bonnie,
 
Thanks for sending this to the list and welcome to the dialogue. When you  
have time, and if you wouldn't mind, please start a new thread and tell us  
something about you.
 
Are you in Alaska?
 
Shalom, Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 30 17:54:40 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:54:40 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
Message-ID: <113020072354.15475.4750A2C00005425D00003C7322218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

I don't see why not Pat!

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from patricia robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


Could y'all make a quick stop in Newnan, GA???????



To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:40:49 -0500
From: rndavar at aol.com


All,

I want to encourage everyone on this list to begin making plans now to attend the UIWU meeting in Charlotte this coming April.  I have attended this conference for several years now and can tell you that this gathering is certainly one of the high points of my year. It is always exciting to meet others who are interested in the Bible and this conference is always attended by just such a crowd.

The torah says that this is one of the things we should spend our tithes on....going to the feasts and this conference is typically around Passover. 

I am looking forward to this. Besides James Tabor, we also expect Simcha Jacobavichi to be in attendance. Of course there are many others that attend and I would be willing to bet that there are few conferences today that have the collective knowledge of the Bible as this one has year after year.

We really may look at chartering a bus and bringing the whole Roots of Faith gang this year.

Let's discuss!  Shalom, Ross


-----Original Message-----
From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 6:41 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting


Hey you guys, and everyone else.  I have an idea.  You can ALL meet one another quite soon, at the UIWU April meeting!  Details to come but some very exciting things.  


James




On Nov 26, 2007, at 12:37 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:


Shalom John,

    Thank you so much for your note, you have no idea what a 'shot in the arm' it was for me.  It's funny, although I've yet to have the pleasure of meeting you, I feel like we're old pals - must be that Brooklyn connection, huh?  :-)  

     You know, I never doubt that HaShem has a plan for me, and that those things that seem difficult, or enormous obstacles now, all have a role to play for the future.  However, it's getting through the present - those very tough times, when everything seems to be going wrong, and every decision you make, you come to quickly regret, THAT's the tough part.  The toughest part, actually...

     It's a true gift from HaShem to be satisfied with one's 'lot in life,' to be able to be grateful for those friends and family members who can bring such joy to your lives.  That's one side of it...on the other side, are the 'would've, should've and could've' elements that drive you crazy!  That's where my mind has been hanging out lately....Every mistake I've made, every poor choice, and the ramifications of all of them....

     But you're right John, it's great to have such caring individuals here, in this "synagogue without walls;" which is actually the FRIENDLIEST synagogue I've ever been a part of!!!   :-)  :-) 
HaShem will bring you, me, and all of us who need him though these tough times.  HE will comfort us, Help us heal from our losses, and restore calm to us all, even when there seems to be 'no way out.'   

   Thanks for welcoming me (back), and reaching out, you are a real 'bro' - in all the deepest meanings of the term.  And it's great to be back in what you've called, the 'fray.'  No matter how much any of us are hurting, we have a great cause that we must continue battling for.  These are truly the "end of days..." when the forces of evil in the world are standing against HaShem, HIS land and HIS people, how can we not rise to the occasion?!?!  

   May we all draw strength from HaShem, and from each other....thanks for reaching out, pal - you've truly brightened what has been a horrible couple of days.  I'll try to post as often as I can....this may be my only sanity check!  LOL

    B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel),
            Hanoch

             



-----Original Message-----
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41 am
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers


Hey Hanoch,

I've been reading along for the last couple of days.  I know I don't have a clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last year or so other than some of your work trials.  But I can honestly say that my world has been completely turned on it;s ear over the last year as well.  Loss of family and friends, emotional upheavals, major career changes, it's a lot to deal with.  I don't know if my troubles have been anything close to yours but I can say that HaShem is bringing me through it all with more hope and clarity than I could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt in my mind He will do the same for you.  It is good to have so many here to support each other.

It is also good to see you back in the fray.

As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and real way for us to make a difference.  Count me in.

Your brother from Brooklyn,

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Shalom to all - 

    The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over Israel's borders.  With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.  Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts.....

    For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our nation.  Please check it out, and spread the word...
            Hanoch
Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot & Cold Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! 






Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
_______________________________________________



Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!

_______________________________________________



= 
_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Fri Nov 30 18:17:33 2007
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:17:33 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A Sincere Apology
References: <A59FB46B078DED44B2C647522E602A35017A5670@CCTEXETSP006.etrsouth.corp.entergy.com>
Message-ID: <00b901c833af$917fe2f0$6400a8c0@davesbook>

I didnt see a note..........what note?

dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: CARLSON, JOHN S 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:29 PM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A Sincere Apology


  Not?  What note?  ;-{)}



  John C.

  "Be Excellent to Each Other!"

                        Bill & Ted



  -----Original Message-----
  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:13 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: [Dialogue] A Sincere Apology



  Dear List and James, 



      There was a private note that I wrote to James, that I mistakenly routed to this list.  I deeply apologize to James, and to all of you.  It was a very stupid error on my part, and I am humilated beyond belief.  This is SO embarassing...



      Please forgive - 



      Shabbat Shalom from a VERY red-faced Hanoch






------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 30 20:54:03 2007
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:54:03 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Shalom Center requests that this message be
	passed	on to friends
In-Reply-To: <B5A6906D-A2BC-4B92-97D1-B0515CE34CBD@alaska.com>
References: <002201c83367$a7735260$c701000a@RabbiGershon>
	<B5A6906D-A2BC-4B92-97D1-B0515CE34CBD@alaska.com>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W33FB34C1B7EB2FFA71E0E0BA720@phx.gbl>


Very good, Bonnie!  Thank you so much, and welcome!!!!
 
Pat


Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:12:49 -0900From: b.nelson at alaska.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] The Shalom Center requests that this message be passed on to friends
Hello,
I am new to this very good dialoging on many different threads.  One of the very good things I have learned from my Rabbi friends that is different from Christians is they like and encourage everyone thinking and believing differently.  Most Christians seem to think it is important for everyone to think like them because they know what God thinks, more than Jews, Muslims or Buddhists, etc..  My Rabbi teacher tells me there is only One God and He or She loves All people, not just the children of Israel. The other wonderful thing he has taught me different from most Christians is how important deeds (including political activism) are for bringing about Tikkun Olam.  My Rabbi teacher asked me to pass on this message from his friend who is the Director of the Shalom Center.
I plan to listen to Ross on Saturday for the first time, live.  I have listened to some of his archives.  I am going to be very busy reading so many wonderful emails. I agree that Hanoch's story would be a good book
Bonnie  
 The Shalom Center requests that this message be passed on to friends 
http://www.shalomctr.org/taxonomy_menu/1/1















On the first night of Hanukkah, my true love said to me -"Let's buy wind-power forE-lec-tri-city"! On the fourth night of Hanukkah, my rabbi said to me -"Car-pool tonight!Give the Breath of LifeA chance to catch new breathWhen we gather to chant of our delight!"
On the eighth night of Hanukkah,My granddaughter said to me: "Sit down and write!Our Senators should know that I need to growAnd that means we should cut the CO2!" The Eight Days of Hanukkah: Eight Actions to Heal the Earth through the Green Menorah Covenant Please share this message with your friends, congregants, etc -- and post the "eight-day actions" on your refrigerator door. Then act on them!






A Prophetic Voice in Jewish, Multireligious, and American Life

















On Hanukkah, we are taught not only to light the menorah night by night, but to publicize the miracle, to turn our individual actions outward for the rest of the world to see and to be inspired by.
So we invite you to join, this Hanukkah, in The Shalom Center 's Green Menorah Covenant for taking action - personal, communal, and political - to heal the earth from the global climate crisis.
After lighting your menorah each evening, dedicate yourself to making the changes in your life that will allow our limited sources of energy to last for as long as they're needed, and with minimal impact on our climate.No single action will solve the global climate crisis, just as no one of us alone can make enough of a difference. Yet, if we act on as many of the areas below as possible, and act together, a seemingly small group of people can overcome a seemingly intractable crisis. We can, as in days of old, turn this time of darkness into one of light.Day 1: Personal/Household: Call your electric-power utility to switch to wind-powered electricity. (For each home, 100% wind-power reduces CO2 emissions the same as not driving 20,000 miles in one year.)Day 2: Synagogue, Hillel, or JCC: Urge your congregation or community building to switch to wind-powered electricity.Day 3. Your network of friends, IM buddies, and members of civic or professional groups you belong to: Connect with people like newspaper editors, real-estate developers, architects, bankers, etc. to urge them to strengthen the green factor in all their decisions, speeches, and actions.Day 4 (which this year is Shabbat). Automobile: If possible, choose today or one other day a week to not use your car at all. Other days, lessen driving. Shop on-line. Cluster errands. Carpool. Don't idle engine beyond 20 seconds.Day 5: Workplace or College: Urge the top officials to arrange an energy audit. Check with utility company about getting one free or at low-cost.Day 6: Town/City: Urge town/city officials to require greening of buildings through ordinances and executive orders. Creating change is often easier on the local level!Day 7: State: Urge state representatives to reduce subsidies for highways, increase them for mass transit.
Day 8: National: Urge your Senators to strengthen and pass the Lieberman-Warner "America's Climate Security Act." For easy addressing and a model letter to send them, go to -- http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/602/t/4181/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=21544 Make our planet's Hanukkah a happy one!-     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -_ From Rabbis Arthur Waskow & Jeff Sultar of The Shalom Center and its Green Menorah Covenant.
??? For more information, to explore having your congregation or community becoming a partner in the Green Menorah Covenant, or to arrange for Green Menorah resource people to visit your community, please contact Rabbi Sultar at greenmenorah at shalomctr.org or (215) 438-2983.Please remember to share this message with your friends, congregants, etc - and post the "eight-day actions" on your refrigerator door.
 

 
 
 
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From tbear001 at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 30 23:15:30 2007
From: tbear001 at bellsouth.net (roy landry)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:15:30 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
In-Reply-To: <113020072354.15475.4750A2C00005425D00003C7322218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <113020072354.15475.4750A2C00005425D00003C7322218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <002401c833d9$318b1f20$6402a8c0@roysoffice>

What is the UIWU?  

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 5:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting

 

I don't see why not Pat!

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from patricia robbins
<patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


Could y'all make a quick stop in Newnan, GA???????


  _____  


To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:40:49 -0500
From: rndavar at aol.com

All,

I want to encourage everyone on this list to begin making plans now to
attend the UIWU meeting in Charlotte this coming April.  I have attended
this conference for several years now and can tell you that this gathering
is certainly one of the high points of my year. It is always exciting to
meet others who are interested in the Bible and this conference is always
attended by just such a crowd.

 

The torah says that this is one of the things we should spend our tithes
on....going to the feasts and this conference is typically around Passover. 

 

I am looking forward to this. Besides James Tabor, we also expect Simcha
Jacobavichi to be in attendance. Of course there are many others that attend
and I would be willing to bet that there are few conferences today that have
the collective knowledge of the Bible as this one has year after year.

 

We really may look at chartering a bus and bringing the whole Roots of Faith
gang this year.

 

Let's discuss!  Shalom, Ross


-----Original Message-----
From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 6:41 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting

Hey you guys, and everyone else.  I have an idea.  You can ALL meet one
another quite soon, at the UIWU April meeting!  Details to come but some
very exciting things.  

 

James

 

 

On Nov 26, 2007, at 12:37 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:

 

Shalom John,

 

    Thank you so much for your note, you have no idea what a 'shot in the
arm' it was for me.  It's funny, although I've yet to have the pleasure of
meeting you, I feel like we're old pals - must be that Brooklyn connection,
huh?  :-)  

 

     You know, I never doubt that HaShem has a plan for me, and that those
things that seem difficult, or enormous obstacles now, all have a role to
play for the future.  However, it's getting through the present - those very
tough times, when everything seems to be going wrong, and every decision you
make, you come to quickly regret, THAT's the tough part.  The toughest part,
actually...

     It's a true gift from HaShem to be satisfied with one's 'lot in life,'
to be able to be grateful for those friends and family members who can bring
such joy to your lives.  That's one side of it...on the other side, are the
'would've, should've and could've' elements that drive you crazy!  That's
where my mind has been hanging out lately....Every mistake I've made, every
poor choice, and the ramifications of all of them....

     But you're right John, it's great to have such caring indi viduals
here, in this "synagogue without walls;" which is actually the FRIENDLIEST
synagogue I've ever been a part of!!!   :-)  :-) 
HaShem will bring you, me, and all of us who need him though these tough
times.  HE will comfort us, Help us heal from our losses, and restore calm
to us all, even when there seems to be 'no way out.'   

   Thanks for welcoming me (back), and reaching out, you are a real 'bro' -
in all the deepest meanings of the term.  And it's great to be back in what
you've called, the 'fray.'  No matter how much any of us are hurting, we
have a great cause that we must continue battling for.  These are truly the
"end of days..." when the forces of evil in the world are standing against
HaShem, HIS land and HIS people, how can we not rise to the occasion?!?!  

   May we all draw strength from HaShem, and from each other....thanks for
reaching out, pal - you've truly brighten ed what has been a horrible couple
of days.  I'll try to post as often as I can....this may be my only sanity
check!  LOL

    B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel),
            Hanoch

             



-----Original Message-----
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41 am
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers

Hey Hanoch,

 

I've been reading along for the last couple of days.  I know I don't have a
clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last year or so other than
some of your work trials.  But I can honestly say that my world has been
completely turned on it;s ear over the last year as well.  Loss of family
and friends, emotional upheavals, major career changes, it's a lot to deal
with.  I don't know if my troubles have been anything close to yours but I
can say that HaShem is bringing me through it all with more hope and clarity
than I could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt in my mind He
will do the same for you.  It is good to have so many here to support each
other.

 

It is also good to see you back in the fray.

 

As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and real way
for us to make a difference.  Count me in.

 

Your brother from Brooklyn,

 

Shalom.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 

Shalom to all - 

 

    The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other
snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard
over Israel's borders.  With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are
THE thing.  Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's
jelly donuts.....

 

    For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our
nation.  Please check it out, and spread the word...

            Hanoch

Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot  <http://pizzaidf.org/> & Cold
Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! 






  _____  


Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest
<http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001>
products and top
<http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop000
30000000002>  money wasters of 2007.

_______________________________________________

  _____  


Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=A
OLAOF00020000000970> !

_______________________________________________

 

= 

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
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From kim.alvarado at charter.net  Fri Nov 30 23:31:10 2007
From: kim.alvarado at charter.net (kim.alvarado at charter.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:31:10 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] The Shalom Center requests that this message be
	passed	on to friends
In-Reply-To: <BAY115-W33FB34C1B7EB2FFA71E0E0BA720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20071201003110.WV1KC.85251.root@fepweb04>

Thank you  for the post!  Would love to hear more about you!

Kim

---- patricia robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote: 

=============

Very good, Bonnie!  Thank you so much, and welcome!!!!
 
Pat


Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:12:49 -0900From: b.nelson at alaska.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] The Shalom Center requests that this message be passed on to friends
Hello,
I am new to this very good dialoging on many different threads.  One of the very good things I have learned from my Rabbi friends that is different from Christians is they like and encourage everyone thinking and believing differently.  Most Christians seem to think it is important for everyone to think like them because they know what God thinks, more than Jews, Muslims or Buddhists, etc..  My Rabbi teacher tells me there is only One God and He or She loves All people, not just the children of Israel. The other wonderful thing he has taught me different from most Christians is how important deeds (including political activism) are for bringing about Tikkun Olam.  My Rabbi teacher asked me to pass on this message from his friend who is the Director of the Shalom Center.
I plan to listen to Ross on Saturday for the first time, live.  I have listened to some of his archives.  I am going to be very busy reading so many wonderful emails. I agree that Hanoch's story would be a good book
Bonnie  
 The Shalom Center requests that this message be passed on to friends 
http://www.shalomctr.org/taxonomy_menu/1/1















On the first night of Hanukkah, my true love said to me -"Let's buy wind-power forE-lec-tri-city"! On the fourth night of Hanukkah, my rabbi said to me -"Car-pool tonight!Give the Breath of LifeA chance to catch new breathWhen we gather to chant of our delight!"
On the eighth night of Hanukkah,My granddaughter said to me: "Sit down and write!Our Senators should know that I need to growAnd that means we should cut the CO2!" The Eight Days of Hanukkah: Eight Actions to Heal the Earth through the Green Menorah Covenant Please share this message with your friends, congregants, etc -- and post the "eight-day actions" on your refrigerator door. Then act on them!






A Prophetic Voice in Jewish, Multireligious, and American Life

















On Hanukkah, we are taught not only to light the menorah night by night, but to publicize the miracle, to turn our individual actions outward for the rest of the world to see and to be inspired by.
So we invite you to join, this Hanukkah, in The Shalom Center 's Green Menorah Covenant for taking action - personal, communal, and political - to heal the earth from the global climate crisis.
After lighting your menorah each evening, dedicate yourself to making the changes in your life that will allow our limited sources of energy to last for as long as they're needed, and with minimal impact on our climate.No single action will solve the global climate crisis, just as no one of us alone can make enough of a difference. Yet, if we act on as many of the areas below as possible, and act together, a seemingly small group of people can overcome a seemingly intractable crisis. We can, as in days of old, turn this time of darkness into one of light.Day 1: Personal/Household: Call your electric-power utility to switch to wind-powered electricity. (For each home, 100% wind-power reduces CO2 emissions the same as not driving 20,000 miles in one year.)Day 2: Synagogue, Hillel, or JCC: Urge your congregation or community building to switch to wind-powered electricity.Day 3. Your network of friends, IM buddies, and members of civic or professional groups you belong to: Connect with people like newspaper editors, real-estate developers, architects, bankers, etc. to urge them to strengthen the green factor in all their decisions, speeches, and actions.Day 4 (which this year is Shabbat). Automobile: If possible, choose today or one other day a week to not use your car at all. Other days, lessen driving. Shop on-line. Cluster errands. Carpool. Don't idle engine beyond 20 seconds.Day 5: Workplace or College: Urge the top officials to arrange an energy audit. Check with utility company about getting one free or at low-cost.Day 6: Town/City: Urge town/city officials to require greening of buildings through ordinances and executive orders. Creating change is often easier on the local level!Day 7: State: Urge state representatives to reduce subsidies for highways, increase them for mass transit.
Day 8: National: Urge your Senators to strengthen and pass the Lieberman-Warner "America's Climate Security Act." For easy addressing and a model letter to send them, go to -- http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/602/t/4181/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=21544 Make our planet's Hanukkah a happy one!-     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -_ From Rabbis Arthur Waskow & Jeff Sultar of The Shalom Center and its Green Menorah Covenant.
??? For more information, to explore having your congregation or community becoming a partner in the Green Menorah Covenant, or to arrange for Green Menorah resource people to visit your community, please contact Rabbi Sultar at greenmenorah at shalomctr.org or (215) 438-2983.Please remember to share this message with your friends, congregants, etc - and post the "eight-day actions" on your refrigerator door.
 

 
 



From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 30 23:36:41 2007
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 05:36:41 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
In-Reply-To: <002401c833d9$318b1f20$6402a8c0@roysoffice>
References: <113020072354.15475.4750A2C00005425D00003C7322218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><002401c833d9$318b1f20$6402a8c0@roysoffice>
Message-ID: <465788284-1196487422-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-848918524-@bxe108.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

United Israel World Union.  Dr. Tabor is the current president.  It was started by Davi Horowitz decades ago.  There is a like to it on the ROF website.

Several of us are members.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "roy landry" <tbear001 at bellsouth.net>

Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:15:30 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting


What is the UIWU?? 
? 
 
 
----------------
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
 Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 5:55 PM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting 
? 
 
I don't see why not Pat! 
 
? 
 
--
 John C. 
 
 "Be excellent to each other!" 
 Bill and Ted 
? 
-------------- Original message from patricia robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 
 
 
 Could y'all make a quick stop in Newnan, GA??????? 
 
----------------
 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting
 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:40:49 -0500
 From: rndavar at aol.com 
 
All,
 
 I want to encourage everyone on this list to begin making plans now to attend the UIWU meeting in Charlotte this coming April.? I have attended this conference for several years now and can tell you that this gathering is certainly one of the high points of my year. It is always exciting to meet others who are interested in the Bible and this conference is always attended by just such a crowd. 
 
? 
 
The torah says that this is one of the things we should spend our tithes on....going to the feasts and this conference is typically around Passover. 
 
? 
 
I am looking forward to this. Besides James Tabor, we also expect Simcha Jacobavichi to be in attendance. Of course there are many others that attend and I would be willing to bet that there are few conferences today that have the collective knowledge of the Bible as this one has year after year. 
 
? 
 
We really may look at chartering a bus and bringing the whole Roots of Faith gang this year. 
 
? 
 
Let's discuss!? Shalom, Ross
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 6:41 pm
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] April UIWU Meeting 
 
Hey you guys, and everyone else. ?I have an idea. ?You can ALL meet one another quite soon, at the UIWU April meeting! ?Details to come but some very exciting things.? 
 
? 
 
James 
 
? 
 
? 
 
 
On Nov 26, 2007, at 12:37 PM, YoungBarzel at aol.com <mailto:YoungBarzel at aol.com> wrote: 
? 
 
Shalom John, 
 
? 
 
??? Thank you so much for your note, you have no idea what a 'shot in the arm' it was for me.? It's funny, although I've yet to have the pleasure of meeting you, I feel like we're old pals - must be that Brooklyn connection, huh?? :-)? 
 
? 
 
???? You know, I never doubt that HaShem has a plan for me, and that those things that seem difficult, or enormous obstacles now, all have a role to play for the future.? However, it's getting through the present - those very tough times, when everything seems to be going wrong, and every decision you make, you come to quickly regret, THAT's the tough part.? The toughest part, actually...
 
 ???? It's a true gift from HaShem to be satisfied with one's 'lot in life,' to be able to be grateful for those friends and family members who can bring such joy to your lives.? That's one side of it...on the other side, are the 'would've, should've and could've' elements that drive you crazy!? That's where my mind has been hanging out lately....Every mistake I've made, every poor choice, and the ramifications of all of them....
 
 ???? But you're right John, it's great to have such caring indi viduals here, in this "synagogue without walls;" which is actually the FRIENDLIEST synagogue I've ever been a part of!!!?? :-)? :-) 
 HaShem will bring you, me, and all of us who need him though these tough?times.? HE will comfort us, Help us heal from our losses, and restore calm to us all, even when there seems to be 'no way out.'?? 
 
 ?? Thanks for welcoming me (back), and reaching out, you are a real 'bro' - in all the deepest meanings of the term.? And it's great to be back in what you've called, the 'fray.'? No matter how much any of us are hurting, we have a great cause that we must continue battling for.? These are truly the "end of days..." when the forces of evil in the world are standing against HaShem, HIS land and HIS people, how can we not rise to the occasion?!?!? 
 
 ?? May we all draw strength from HaShem, and from each other....thanks for reaching out, pal - you've truly brighten ed what has been a horrible couple of days.? I'll try to post as often as I can....this may be my only sanity check!? LOL
 
 ??? B'Ahavat Yisrael (With Love of Israel),
 ??????????? Hanoch
 
 ???????????? 
 
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net> 
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> 
 Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41 am
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An easy way to support Israeli Soldiers 
 
 
 
Hey Hanoch, 
 
? 
 
I've been reading along for the last couple of days.? I know I don't have a clue as to the details of your turmoil over the last year or so other than some of your work trials.? But I can honestly say that my world has been completely turned on it;s ear over the last year as well.? Loss of family and friends, emotional upheavals, major career changes, it's a lot to deal with.? I don't know if my troubles have been anything close to yours but I can say that HaShem is bringing me through it all with more hope and clarity than I could have ever dreamed possible, there is no doubt in my mind He will do the same for you.? It is good to have so many here to support each other. 
 
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It is also good to see you back in the fray. 
 
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As for helping Israel, this looks like a perfectly practical and real way for us to make a difference.? Count me in. 
 
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Your brother from Brooklyn, 
 
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Shalom. 
 
--
 John C. 
 
 "Be excellent to each other!" 
 Bill and Ted 
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-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com <mailto:YoungBarzel at aol.com> : -------------- 
 
Shalom to all - 
 
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??? The link below is a great site where you can order pizza and other snacks to be sent to those brave young men and women who are standing guard over Israel's borders.? With Chanukah coming up, remember, jelly donuts are THE thing.? Here in the U.S. it's potato latkes (pancakes), in Israel it's jelly donuts..... 
 
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??? For a few dollars you can bring such joy to those who are serving our nation.? Please check it out, and spread the word... 
 
??? ??? ??? Hanoch 
 
Click here: Pizza, Soda and Ice Cream, Hot &amp;
Cold Soup for our Israeli Soldiers -- and Burgers too!!! <http://pizzaidf.org/>  

 
 
 
 
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