From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Aug 1 03:47:53 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 18:47:53 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM.... REDEMPTION WITH MERCY. Message-ID: <4892CDB9.9020601@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/65066472/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Aug 1 03:56:41 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 18:56:41 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. Redemption with mercy..... daily lessons. Message-ID: <4892CFC9.1030000@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/f0ada60c/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Aug 1 06:59:54 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 07:59:54 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom.. Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 29 Tammuz 5768 August 1, 2008 Shabbat Shalom Thus says Hashem: The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool; where is the house that you may build for Me? And where is the place that may be My resting-place? For all these things My hand has made, and so all these things came to be, says Hashem; but on this man will I look, on him that has a humble and contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word. Isaiah 66:1-2 **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/2eea0b98/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Aug 1 07:42:54 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 08:42:54 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] What don't they get? They Must Go! Message-ID: (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) Daily Israel Report _Subscribe (free)_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe) _Home_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) _News_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) _News Briefs_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/AllFlashes.aspx) _Opinion_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/) _Judaism_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Yahadut.aspx) _Features_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Section.aspx/9) _Blogs_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/) _Admin_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/a7Admin/) _Radio_ (http://www.israelnationalradio.com/) | _Live _ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx) _TV_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/) _Jukebox_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Jukebox.aspx) _Israel Pics_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pict) _Services_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Useful) _RSS_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/RSS) _Advertise_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pirsum) Rabbis Join Drive for "Only Jewish Labor" 29 Tammuz 5768, 01 August 08 03:34 by Hillel Fendel (IsraelNN.com) Marking one month since the first bulldozer terror attack, in which three Jews were murdered by an Arab construction worker, rabbis and public figures will call for "Only Jewish Labor" in a memorial ceremony and rally at the site. The event, probably the largest one of its kind, will be held Sunday evening at 7:30 PM, on Jaffa Rd. in Jerusalem, in the area in which the attack occurred. A similar attack, carried out by an Arab worker from eastern Jerusalem driving a tractor two weeks later, ended with no deaths. These and other attempted attacks by Arab workers against their Jewish employers or others have given a thrust to the campaign to employ Jewish labor in place of Arabs. Twenty-seven leading rabbis have joined the public call for Jewish Labor, under the motto, "Don?t give them guns, don?t give them tractors, don't give them jobs." The motto is an outgrowth of the "Don't give them guns" rallying cry against then-Prime Ministers Rabin and Peres in the early years of the Oslo Accords. In the framework of the Oslo Accords, Rabin and Peres gave PA Chairman Yasser Arafat land and guns in exchange for promises of peace. 'Enemy Raising His Head With Physical and Verbal Violence' Posters hung and distributed at various events, such as Thursday night's "Circle the Temple Mount Gates" monthly march - in which a record number of 6,000 people took part - explain, "The enemy is raising his head with brazenness, with verbal and physical violence, and with offensiveness to Jewish girls. The enemy is making inroads into our neighborhoods and cities, and we are giving them jobs." Cheap Labor is Very Expensive The rabbis' petition states: "It has again become clear that cheap Arab labor actually costs a very dear price in blood. The murderous tractors driven by Arabs of eastern Jerusalem are just the tip of the iceberg of a national problem that has long become an existential danger. "A proper Jewish leadership would act with full force to deter terrorists, their dispatchers, and their supporters, as well as to expel enemies and take all measures to end the bloodshed in the Holy Land. Jewish leadership should also work to encourage Jewish Labor in every field, and to restore the honor of the Jewish worker. "But even now, without a proper Jewish leadership, we must act on the individual level to stop supporting the Arab enemy. Each and every one must take at least one corrective step of teshuvah (repentance) to strengthen Jewish Labor and not to support the enemies of Israel... "As a first practical step, we call for an end to hiring enemies to work in our houses, an end to purchasing from enemies, and not to directly employ enemies." Among the 27 rabbis signed on the call are: Rabbi Yitzchak Ginzburg, Rabbi Meir Mazuz, Rabbi Chaim HaCohen (the Kabbalist rabbi known as the Chalban), Rabbi Yitzchak HaLevy of Karnei Shomron, Rabbi Elyakim Levanon of Elon Moreh, Rabbi Dov Lior, Rabbi Yisrael Ariel, and Rabbi Moshe Tzuriel. Rabbis Yaakov Yosef and Shmuel Eliyahu, both of whom are sons of former Sephardic Chief Rabbis of Israel, are also included. 'Jews Don't Run Over Jews' The event will be preceded with a convoy of tractors and similar vehicles driven by Jews, under the slogan, "Jews don't run over Jews" - a takeoff on the anti-Disengagement slogan, "Jews don't expel Jews." _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/dcc675a0/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Aug 1 08:12:29 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:12:29 EDT Subject: Fwd: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Message-ID: Well James and all: I guess that wall remains with me siding with the apostles and as many as 500 who witnessed Yeshua raised from the dead. The other side not believing a word of it. This is not new at all we are just playing over again and debating the same issues that began while the temple was yet standing and the same issues that will continue to be debated until Yahovah Elohim as Amos 8:11 states - Yahovah rasies up the fallen tabernacle and seals up the breach between Judah and Ephraim with the Israelites his companions. There are Ephraimite assemblies springing up all over the USA that I'm aware of, and it will take Yahovah to straighten it all out. In the mean time both sides can tolerate each other on this dialogue, but reconciliation is out of the question. James your understanding of Yeshua and the apostles, especially Paul verses mine is poles apart. You believe you have solved the whole issues, while although still working my way through I have learned enough to continue to stand with Paul and the Jerusalem apostles as they believed and were eyewitness, that Yahovah raised Yeshua from the dead. I believe Yehsua took the curse of death through sin upon the cross and restored eternal life lost by Adam when driven from the tree of eternal life. I believe the genealogy of Luke brings the royal linage through to Yeshua as a son of Adam, a son of Abraham, a son of David, and through Nathan the Melchizedek priesthood. The more modern interpretation that Nathan's genealogy led to Mary - I don't believe a word of it. Anyone can observe that the linage is from the male side. And so it goes - the wall remains with no reconciliation. But you know it is really not about us in this tiny little group -. while we debate Yahovah is calling out of Babylon whole assemblies who are turning to the Torah and none I'm aware of are leaving Yeshua and the apostles behind. And so, Yahovah is doing what we cannot and that is the larger picture I think we can all be thankful for. And with that this will be my last word on the thread that our friend Steve placed on the dialogue. Take care Clyde **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/1bdb909e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:47:12 -0400 Size: 63363 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/1bdb909e/attachment.mht From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 08:53:03 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:53:03 -0400 Subject: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Clyde. I am not aware of any current "debate," on this issue, at least from my side. As I recall you bowed out of that several months ago after foraying back and forth with your posts on Paul. You had asked a question and I responded with two texts, one from the Psalms, another from Yeshua, both dealing, so far as I could judge, with your question--how is it that a human being is justified before God? Have a good Shabbath, James from Jerusalem... On Aug 1, 2008, at 9:12 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > Well James and all: > > I guess that wall remains with me siding with the apostles and as > many as 500 who witnessed Yeshua raised from the dead. The other > side not believing a word of it. This is not new at all we are just > playing over again and debating the same issues that began while the > temple was yet standing and the same issues that will continue to be > debated until Yahovah Elohim as Amos 8:11 states - Yahovah rasies > up the fallen tabernacle and seals up the breach between Judah and > Ephraim with the Israelites his companions. There are Ephraimite > assemblies springing up all over the USA that I'm aware of, and it > will take Yahovah to straighten it all out. In the mean time both > sides can tolerate each other on this dialogue, but reconciliation > is out of the question. James your understanding of Yeshua and the > apostles, especially Paul verses mine is poles apart. > > You believe you have solved the whole issues, while although still > working my way through I have learned enough to continue to stand > with Paul and the Jerusalem apostles as they believed and were > eyewitness, that Yahovah raised Yeshua from the dead. I believe > Yehsua took the curse of death through sin upon the cross and > restored eternal life lost by Adam when driven from the tree of > eternal life. I believe the genealogy of Luke brings the royal > linage through to Yeshua as a son of Adam, a son of Abraham, a son > of David, and through Nathan the Melchizedek priesthood. The more > modern interpretation that Nathan's genealogy led to Mary - I don't > believe a word of it. Anyone can observe that the linage is from the > male side. And so it goes - the wall remains with no reconciliation. > But you know it is really not about us in this tiny little group -. > while we debate Yahovah is calling out of Babylon whole assemblies > who are turning to the Torah and none I'm aware of are leaving > Yeshua and the apostles behind. And so, Yahovah is doing what we > cannot and that is the larger picture I think we can all be thankful > for. And with that this will be my last word on the thread that our > friend Steve placed on the dialogue. > > Take care > > Clyde > > > > Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse > Fantasy Football today. > > From: James Tabor > Date: July 31, 2008 4:47:12 PM EDT > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > I think the texts, and many more like them, speak for themselves. > Nothing is needed other than the honest and humble heart turning to > HaShem. It has always been that way. The tax collector did not need > to believe in Yeshua or anyone else, just to turn to God, as Yeshua > taught. Abraham was "justified" by his faith, not in a sacrifice on > the cross, but that he trusted YHVH. I think this whole theological > construct you are reflecting is not found anywhere in the Torah or > Prophets that I know of. I realize this means a great deal to you > and I do not want to debate it but your persistence in putting forth > this human sacrifice idea, in the face of texts like Micah 6 and > many others, is to me a Christian/Pauline construct. The "curse" as > you call it (and the Hebrew does not really carry that idea at all) > is "lifted" as soon as one is forgiven of sins--which comes as one > turns to YHVH in repentance and faith. Nothing more is needed. The > Hebrew Scriptures are plain...This is something to celebrate and the > idea that God can not freely forgive, as a father does a son, as I > understand it, undermines the very nature of God. Pagans for > centuries believed that they needed to shed blood, even human blood, > to somehow placate the God/gods, or they could never be favored. > When we forgive our children we do not have to shed any blood, and > the Scriptures say as a father forgives a son, so YHVH does those > who fear Him.... > > James > > > On Jul 31, 2008, at 8:57 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > >> Dear James: >> >> Thanks for taking the time to post the wonderful scriptures that >> declare the mercy of Ha Shem. The grace of G-D is truly amazing. >> And yes we must begin in the beginning with Adam as well as Eve. >> When G-D placed them in the garden, he did not speak to them about >> sacrifice and offerings. He gave them a simple commandment to not >> eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The choice was >> either to believe G-D or the serpent. The outcome from eating of >> the forbidden tree was to be cast out of the Garden lest they take >> of the tree of life and live forever. We find that outside the >> Garden sacrifice and offerings were instituted. Abel brought the >> acceptable sacrifice but Cain did not, and G-D was angry with Cain. >> We know the outcome of that Cain slew Abel and now another seed was >> needed. >> >> Adam knew his wife again and Eve bore him a son and they called his >> name Seth, said she G-D has given me another seed. And so in the >> royal linage we have Adam the son of G-D and then Seth the son of >> Adam. In all the wonderful scriptures you have quoted not one >> informs us of the curse of death through sin is taken away with the >> promise of being raised from the dead by a resurrection to eternal >> life. Can the blood of bulls and goats take away the curse of >> eternal death and give the promise of eternal life through >> resurrection? If the blood of bulls and goats can give inheritance >> of eternal life by taking away the curse of eternal death, and that >> is the way G-D has determined - then we had better be praying for a >> temple and the sacrifices re-instituted which is what the temple >> institute is all about. And so, as wonderful as all the scriptures >> you have quoted, none speak of the resurrection of the dead, or the >> curse of death taken away. And so the question asked remains and is >> pasted again below: >> >> The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the >> name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of >> death taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal >> without a resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the >> apostles declare was taken on the cross of Yeshua that solves the >> issue of death through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, >> then how is the curse of death through sin taken away? How each >> will answer the question I think can benefit each of us. Please >> make your case through biblical texts >> >> Thank you in advance >> >> Clyde >> >> >> >> >> >> Get fantasy football with free live scoring.Sign up for FanHouse >> Fantasy Football today. >> >> From:James Tabor >> Date:July 31, 2008 2:39:02 AM EDT >> To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject:Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work >> Reply-To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> >> The Way of Salvation, from Adam until the end of the age: >> >> >> Psa. 103:8 The YHVH is merciful and gracious, >> slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. >> Psa. 103:9 He will not always chide, >> nor will he keep his anger forever. >> Psa. 103:10 He does not deal with us according to our sins, >> nor repay us according to our iniquities. >> Psa. 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, >> so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; >> Psa. 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, >> so far does he remove our transgressions from us. >> Psa. 103:13 As a father shows compassion to his children, >> so the YHVH shows compassion to those who fear him. >> Psa. 103:14 For he knows our frame; >> he remembers that we are dust. >> >> Echoed by Yeshua in his most fundamental teaching on this subject: >> >> Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in >> themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with >> contempt: >> Luke 18:10 ?Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee >> and the other a tax collector. >> Luke 18:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ?God, I >> thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, >> adulterers, or even like this tax collector. >> Luke 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.? >> Luke 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even >> lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ?God, be >> merciful to me, a sinner!? >> Luke 18:14 I tell you,this man went down to his house >> justified,rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself >> will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.? >> >> >> On Jul 30, 2008, at 8:05 PM,CBrown4465 at aol.comwrote: >> >>> Dear Steve and all: >>> >>> I want to express gratitude to you Steve for sharing your >>> expedience's working with folks in therapy. It is clear you have >>> gained wisdom both from this and your biblical studies. I find a >>> lot of value to what you write. But now to my point, since no one >>> has come forward to take up your challenge I will take your advise >>> and lay myself out for scrutiny by all by setting forth the issue >>> that goes to the heart and core of what divides us on this >>> dialogue list. Let me first repeat what does not divide us and >>> that is we all believe we need to keep the Torah of G-D. We are >>> not divided over the fact that the grace of G-D comes first, and >>> as a result of that grace we are obligated to keep the covenantal >>> commandments. >>> >>> The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the >>> name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of >>> death taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal >>> without a resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the >>> apostles declare was taken on the cross of Yehsua that solves the >>> issue of death through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, >>> then how is the curse of death through sin taken away? How each >>> will answer the question I think can benefit each of us. Please >>> make your case through biblical texts >>> >>> Thank you in advance >>> >>> Clyde >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Get fantasy football with free live scoring.Sign up for FanHouse >>> Fantasy Football today. >>> >>> From:Steve Mathe >>> Date:July 29, 2008 1:10:43 PM EDT >>> To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> Subject:Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work >>> Reply-To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> >>> >>> Dear Clyde, >>> >>> Thank you for your kind words and sentiments. The place of Yeshua >>> in the redemption plan of God is indeed a conundrum that divides >>> Jews and Christians in a major and intractable way. It seems that >>> that division is here to stay for a while, till the very end when >>> the Messiah appears and does his work in a visible way. In the >>> mean time we, who expect the Messiah on both sides of the aisle >>> have to work together in our separate areas of influence and >>> converge upon the straight paths of the Torah. The good news is >>> that he is being investigated more than ever and the false >>> associations with him are stripped away to show him to be a true >>> Torah teacher whose death was at least to be counted among the >>> great martyrs of Judaism who died for their convictions. Among us, >>> and groups like us, perhaps another hopeful development is that if >>> his influence and sayings prove to be of gathering significance to >>> the Ten Tribes in the latter days, it will galvanize the movement >>> and perhaps show him the be Messiah ben Yosef. This will carry a >>> lot of weight if indeed his the latter day followers will be like >>> his initial followers, very observant. I have a historical >>> reference somewhere, that shows his immediate followers to be more >>> observant than their accusers on the other side of the aisle. If >>> this could be replicated among his followers today, especially >>> among the Ten Tribes movement, that would be a great development >>> in this matter. >>> >>> Am of the opinion, that no one can break a whole in this matter, >>> but God. If we are to have any part in that, it will be in >>> conjunction, if not directly by His revelation. Hosea tells us >>> that Ephraim is bound to his idols, and was to be left alone to >>> carry them. It is this idolatry associated with Yeshua that needs >>> to be removed, regardless of who he is. I venture to say, that we >>> may not be able to do it entirely by ourselves. It may have to be >>> a Divine act. if so, we have nothing to fear, for be he the >>> Messiah or not, he will be restored to who was and is. If I may, I >>> venture to put forth to that effect an idea to try in this group. >>> >>> Am sure the basic foundation of this is not new, and many of us >>> have seen the reliance on God's revelation in our lives to be an >>> absolute necessity. I recommend that we all try this, in fact WE >>> ALLDOTHIS. I mean ALL, for there is strength in numbers coming to >>> the gates of the King with the same query. When I had my practice, >>> by God's grace, I have been afforded the discovery of a formula >>> that I have never seen not work with my clients. I always told >>> them, that at best, I would be a technician who would point them >>> in the right direction to solve their problems. This was so, >>> because God is the ultimate doctor and therapist who can diagnose >>> what is really wrong with them and prescribe the appropriate >>> remedy. I told them that they will have to beseech God to that >>> effect, and keep a journal of their prayers, their meditations >>> about their situation and the answers they will receive, be they >>> through whatever means, dreams being chief of them. There were to >>> be no exceptions to this rule and requirement, and was a "must" if >>> they were to be in therapy with me. Often, on their initial visit >>> they would come in with a dream of the night before or a few days >>> before, which had the diagnosis already in it, and sometimes the >>> whole solution or parts thereof. Often other dreams would follow >>> to lay out the necessary solution. >>> >>> However, they all had to ask in a certain way, and have a certain >>> prescribed disposition. I asked them, that to obtain the healing >>> solution to their problem, they were to approach God a certain >>> way, this way: >>> >>> They were to go to Him, as to a doctor. They could tell Him about >>> their problem, however, they were to not to tell Him what to do. >>> Rather they were to go, just as to a human doctor, ready to take >>> their clothes off. They were to go psychologically naked, letting >>> the Doctor look and examine where-ever He wants. They were to let >>> this examination extend to any and all parts of their lives, and >>> nothing was to be off limits. The caveat to this procedure was >>> that they had to be ready to accept the Doctor's advice and LET GO >>> OF ANYTHING THEY HELD DEAR IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE DIAGNOSIS AND >>> THE HEALING PRESCRIPTION TO THEREALPROBLEM. ANYTHING AND >>> EVERYTHING, no holds barred. They had to be ready to pay anything. >>> I told them my fee, and that that was the least they had to pay. >>> It was to take time in writing in their journals, and praying and >>> being active in the process. I told them it would take them "blood >>> sweat and tears" to obtain the truth about themselves and to apply >>> the solution. They were to be willing to let go of any conviction >>> of what their problem was. Most importantly they were to be ready >>> to let go of the solution they were applying to their perceived >>> problem. As you know, often their "solution" was an obstacle to >>> obtain the real solution. >>> >>> Letting go of this wrong solution or any obstacle to the real >>> solution was often the major part of therapy. Doing so is not >>> easy, and here is the formula to start that. They were to ask God >>> to show them"the FIRST step to take to begin to deal with their >>> RESISTANCE to the solution,"which almost always is unconscious and >>> is a lot more powerful and intractable than their conscious >>> willpower. It is like an iceberg, most of which is under water, >>> i.e. below the level of consciousness. >>> >>> These steps were necessary, for the obstacle and resistance could >>> not be assaulted directly due to its long time embedded, ossified >>> and petrified enormity. It could be approached only in small >>> steps. Whoever did this, they always received the answer promptly, >>> for Godalwaysresponds to pleas for help with repentance related >>> healing. This is what He wants us to do the most. >>> >>> Gang, are we willing to do this formula given the affliction of >>> the Yeshua question? It certainly meets the iceberg analogy. We >>> need to go before God our Healer,.... naked and poor, and humble, >>> (nakedness humbles us), and assume that we do not know the answer, >>> and that we are ready to let go of anything and EVERYTHING we hold >>> dear about this conundrum... regardless of what side of the aisle >>> we are on? Come now...everyone,.... I am "poking" every single >>> person on this list to really "go naked before God," and let Him >>> examine us, and our dearly held beliefs, and let Him tell us what >>> the Truth is about this Yeshua conundrum. Most importantly, even >>> before that, we need to ask the Great Therapist to let us know >>> what we each individually need to do to deal with our resistance >>> to let the truth in about Yeshua? >>> >>> Some might say, that this is too daunting an idea and is too big >>> for us... well, what are we here for in this calling of "the first >>> contingent to arise from the Valley of Dry bones?" Let's get to >>> work gang!! There is nothing to fear, if the convictions are true >>> they will be verified, if they are mixed with error, they will be >>> corrected, if we are wrong, we will be corrected and liberated... >>> let's get out of our dark prison houses, His light has shone in on >>> us and we need to move out into His Light!! >>> Who is willing to do that? Let us know and let's do this >>> "project." we are called to a Work, and we need "to work" on this >>> part of our affliction. In case some do not know, we are in >>> therapy NOW. We need to do this, to be of use in the work of Eli Y- >>> h!! >>> >>> Let's go gang!! It is time to move on this!! NOW.... >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> BTW, if you do not know already, an alternate way to conceptualize >>> this, it is the building of "the Mishkan of Prayers." It is built >>> by all of called Israel, Jews and Ten Tribers, in whose prayers >>> Hashem's Presence, the Shekhinah dwells. We desperately need to >>> build this edifice, so we can have the Divine Guidance therein to >>> direct us on our journey homeward in the midbar / wilderness of >>> beliefs, philosophies, outlooks, theologies and isms of the nations. >>> >>> Let's go gang!!!! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> At 07:15 AM 7/29/2008, you wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Steve: >>>> >>>> I appreciate your comments and thoughts on reconciliation on this >>>> dialogue as well as the reconciliation between the house of Judah >>>> and the house of Ephraim. As far as I can tell there is agreement >>>> by all on the list in regard to keeping the Torah of Ha Shem. But >>>> there is a wall a stumbling if you will between one side with the >>>> other. It is little to no difference than the division between >>>> the disciples of Yeshua who believed he was the promised messiah, >>>> and the Jewish authorities who saw him as a messiah pretender. As >>>> far as the historical ministry of Yeshua in his attempt to return >>>> his generation back to the old paths, there is no disagreement as >>>> far as I can observe by any on the list. What divides us is what >>>> did the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua accomplish in the >>>> redemption plan of Ha Shem? This is the wall that is up between >>>> the two sides on the dialogue list. >>>> >>>> It is the same division that caused the heat in late second >>>> temple between the Jewish authorities and the followers of >>>> Yeshua. For me I will not for a moment budge from my strong >>>> conviction that Yeshua plays a major part in the redemption plan >>>> of G-d. On the other side I would venture to say that they too >>>> would not budge from their conviction that Yeshua is not needed >>>> in the redemption plan of G-d. And so what are we to do since it >>>> seems the wall cannot be penetrated by either side? It is not >>>> that there is bad folks on either side of the wall, it is just >>>> each side seems to have made up their minds on what they believe >>>> and why they believe it. We can avoid disagreement by staying >>>> away from the issue of what the life, death, and resurrection of >>>> Yeshua means in the plan of G-d redeeming the world through him, >>>> that some of us hold strong opinions, while the other side of the >>>> wall see no need for Yeshua in the redemption plan of G-d. >>>> >>>> And so if someone has a way to break a hole in the wall that >>>> divides us I would appreciate hearing it. That wall has lasted >>>> nearly two-thousand years now, and no breach of the wall has yet >>>> occurred. This is where the rubber meets the road - Is Yeshua >>>> necessary as our Passover from death to eternal life or is he >>>> not? Do we need to go through Yeshua to obtain the grace of G-d >>>> or not? Is Yeshua our high priest or not? One side of the wall >>>> would say yes to all the questions, while the other side will say >>>> no. The wall is there my friends an no amount of denying it will >>>> do. And so who has the answer to these hard questions? >>>> >>>> Clyde >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Get fantasy football with free live scoring.Sign up for FanHouse >>>> Fantasy Football today. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> = _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > = _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/4abb9fea/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 09:21:55 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 10:21:55 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The need for blood sacrifice In-Reply-To: <516d73340807311512i76e2c8b5vbf48992a20dec45f@mail.gmail.com> References: <516d73340807311512i76e2c8b5vbf48992a20dec45f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45A538CD-5C29-4A7D-A70E-D91E47318F7F@earthlink.net> It seems that the Prophets indicate they were not intended at the first--see Jeremiah 7:21ff. Ezek 20 speaks of the Torah given initially, that brought life, then other things added that were "not good," (v. 25), but a response to sins and failures. Amos 5:21-25 seems also relevant. There are many other texts that say God does not desire sacrifice. Hosea 6:6 was quote by Yeshua more than any other text. In his story of the two men who went to the Temple to pray, the one "justified" only turns to God--nothing is said about sacrifices being needed. Even the fast of Yom Kippur, in the future, is to turned to a day of feasting and rejoicing, and they will not "hurt or slaughter" on all my Holy Mountain, says Isa 11. My understanding is they were allowed as an accommodation to the failure of the people to "hear the Voice." It is also possible, as Maimonides and others have maintained, is that this system was allowed to "wean" them from paganism. The nations around them had all these temples, rites, and ceremonies, and they seemed to find such things irresistible. Thus they were Sorry for the short answer Brian, it is already close to Shabbat here in Jerusalem and I am just going quickly through a day or so of back e- mail. Best to you, James On Jul 31, 2008, at 6:12 PM, Brian McFarlane wrote: > Shalom, > James Tabor and Betty Givin believe they have said it all, " Nothing > is needed other than honest... heart turning (ie repentance )(my > brackets). It has always been that way." That leaves a rather > obvious question..." What was the purpose of sacrifice in the > Wilderness Tabernacle and in the Temples' services? At the time of > the institution of these sacrificial services were they not > necessary? Were they not instituted at the express command of God? > Brian McFarlane > _______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at aol.com Fri Aug 1 10:28:33 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 11:28:33 -0400 Subject: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAC20264D4BA54-6D0-222@WEBMAIL-DG02.sim.aol.com> Hey Clyde - ???? Hope this note finds you well.? A quick question:?So where does a Jewish guy like me fit into your view of this 'eternal death' vs 'eternal life' thing?? What is Yeshua supposed to mean to me, in your opinion, of course?? I'm really very interested in understanding how this is all expected (in your view) to 'play out' - and happen. ???? Thanks for your input (in advance!)? ?:-) ???? Shabbat Shalom from your pal in the Baked Apple, ??????????????? ?????????????????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 9:12 am Subject: Fwd: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Well James and all: ? I guess that wall remains with me siding with the apostles and as many as 500 who witnessed Yeshua raised from the dead. The other side not believing a word of it. This is not new at all we are just playing over again?and debating the same issues that began while the temple was yet standing and the same issues that will continue to be debated until? Yahovah Elohim as Amos 8:11 states - Yahovah rasies up the fallen tabernacle and seals up the breach between Judah and Ephraim with the Israelites his companions. There are Ephraimite assemblies springing up all over t he USA that I'm aware of, and it will take Yahovah to?straighten it all out. In the mean time both sides can tolerate each other on this dialogue, but reconciliation is out of the question. James your understanding of Yeshua and the apostles, especially Paul verses mine is poles apart. ? You believe you have solved the whole issues, while although still working my way through I have learned enough to continue to stand with Paul and the Jerusalem apostles as they believed and were eyewitness, that Yahovah raised Yeshua from the dead. I believe Yehsua took the curse of death through sin?upon the cross and restored eternal life lost by Adam when driven from the tree of eternal life. I believe the genealogy of Luke brings the royal linage through to Yeshua as a son of Adam, a son of Abraham, a son of David, and through Nathan the Melchizedek priesthood. The more modern interpretation that Nathan's genealogy led to Mary - I don't believe a word of it. Anyone can observe that?the linage is from the male side. And so it goes - the wall remains with no reconciliation. But you know it is really not about us in this tiny little group -. while we debate Yahovah is calling out of Babylon whole? assemblies?who are turning to the Torah and none I'm aware of are leaving Yeshua and the apostles behind. And so, Yahovah is doing what we cannot and that is the?larger picture I think we can all be thankful for. And with that this will be my last word on the thread that our friend Steve placed on the dialogue. ? Take care ? Clyde Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. Attached Message From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:47:12 -0400 I think the texts, and many more like them, speak for themselves. Nothing is needed other than the honest and humble heart turning to HaShem. It has always been that way. The tax collector did not need to believe in Yeshua or anyone else, just to turn to God, as Yeshua taught. Abraham was "justified" by his faith, not in a sacrifice on the cross, but that he trusted YHVH. I think this whole theological construct you are reflecting is not found anywhere in the Torah or Prophets that I know of. I realize this means a great deal to you and I do not want to debate it but your persistence in putting forth this human sacrifice idea, in the face of texts like Micah 6 and many others, is to me a Christian/Pauline construct. The "curse" as you call it (and the Hebrew does not really carry that idea at all) is "lifted" as soon as one is forgiven of sins--which comes as one turns to YHVH in repentance and faith. Nothing more is needed. The Hebrew Scriptures are plain...This is something to celebrate and the idea that God can not freely forgive, as a father does a son, as I understand it,=2 0undermines the very nature of God. Pagans for centuries believed that they needed to shed blood, even human blood, to somehow placate the God/gods, or they could never be favored. When we forgive our children we do not have to shed any blood, and the Scriptures say as a father forgives a son, so YHVH does those who fear Him.... James On Jul 31, 2008, at 8:57 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: ?Dear James: ? Thanks for taking the time to post the wonderful scriptures that declare the mercy of Ha Shem. The grace of G-D is truly amazing. And yes we must begin in the beginning with Adam as well as Eve. When G-D placed them in the garden, he did not speak to them about sacrifice and offerings. He gave them a simple commandment to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The choice was either to believe G-D or the serpent. The outcome from eating of the forbidden tree was to be cast out of the Garden lest they take of the tree of life and live forever. We find that?outside the?Garden sacrifice and offerings were instituted. Abel brought the acceptable sacrifice but Cain did not, and G-D was angry with Cain. We know the outcome of that Cain slew Abel and now another seed was needed. ? Adam knew his wife again and Eve bore him a son and they called his name Seth, said she G-D has given me another seed. And so in the royal linage we have Adam the son of G-D and then Seth the son of Adam.?In all t he wonderful scriptures you have quoted not one informs us of the curse of death through sin is taken away with the promise of being raised from the dead by a resurrection to eternal life.?Can the blood of bulls and goats take away the curse of eternal death and give the promise of eternal life through resurrection??If the blood of bulls and goats can give inheritance?of eternal life by taking away the curse of eternal death, and that is the way G-D has determined - then we had better be praying for a temple and the sacrifices re-instituted which is what the temple institute is all about. And so, as wonderful as all the scriptures you?have quoted, none speak of the resurrection of the dead, or the curse of death taken away. And so the question asked remains and is? pasted again ?below: ? The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of death taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal without a resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the apostles declare was taken on the cross of Yeshua that solves the issue of death through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, then how is the curse of death through sin taken away? How each will answer the question I think can benefit each of?us. Please make your case through biblical texts ? Thank you in advance ? Clyde????? ? ? Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. From: James Tabor Date: July 31, 2008 2:39:02 AM EDT To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org The Way of Salvation, from Adam until the end of the age: Psa. 103:8? The?YHVH?is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.? Psa. 103:9? He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever.? Psa. 103:10? He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities.? Psa. 103:11? For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;? Psa. 103:12? as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.? Psa. 103:13? As a father shows compassion to his children, so the?YHVH?shows compassion to those who fear him.? Psa. 103:14? For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust. Echoed by Yeshua in his most fundamental teaching on this subject: Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt:? Luke 18:10 ?Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. Luke 18:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, pra yed thus: ?God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. Luke 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.? Luke 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ?God, be merciful to me, a sinner!? Luke 18:14 I tell you,?this man went down to his house justified,?rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.? On Jul 30, 2008, at 8:05 PM,?CBrown4465 at aol.com?wrote: ?Dear Steve and all: ? I want to express gratitude to you Steve for sharing your expedience's working with folks in therapy. It is clear you have gained wisdom both from this and your biblical studies. I find a lot of value to what you write. But now to my point, since no one has come forward to take up your challenge I will take your advise and lay myself out for scrutiny by all by setting forth the issue that goes to the heart and core of what divides us on this dialogue list. Let me first repeat what does not divide us and that is we all believe we need to keep the Torah of G-D. We are not divided over the fact that the grace of G-D comes first, and as a result of that grace we are obligated to keep the covenantal commandments. ? The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all=2 0that call upon the name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of death taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal without a resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the apostles declare was taken on the cross of Yehsua that solves the issue of death through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, then how is the curse of death through sin taken away? How each will answer the question I think can benefit each of us. Please make your case through biblical texts ? Thank you in advance ? Clyde ? Get fantasy football with free live scoring.Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. From:Steve Mathe Date:July 29, 2008 1:10:43 PM EDT To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Reply-To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Dear Clyde, Thank you for your kind words and sentiments. The place of Yeshua in the redemption plan of God is indeed a conundrum that divides Jews and Christians in a major and intractable way. It seems that that division is here to stay for a while, till the very end when the Messiah appears and does his work in a visible way. In the mean time we, who expect the Messiah on both sides of the aisle have to work together in our separate areas of influence and converge upon the straight paths of the Torah. The good news is that he is being investigated more than ever and the false associations with him are stripped away to show20him to be a true Torah teacher whose death was at least to be counted among the great martyrs of Judaism who died for their convictions. Among us, and groups like us, perhaps another hopeful development is that if his influence and sayings prove to be of gathering significance to the Ten Tribes in the latter days, it will galvanize the movement and perhaps show him the be Messiah ben Yosef. This will carry a lot of weight if indeed his the latter day followers will be like his initial followers, very observant. I have a historical reference somewhere, that shows his immediate followers to be more observant than their accusers on the other side of the aisle. If this could be replicated among his followers today, especially among the Ten Tribes movement, that would be a great development in this matter. Am of the opinion, that no one can break a whole in this matter, but God. If we are to have any part in that, it will be in conjunction, if not directly by His revelation. Hosea tells us that Ephraim is bound to his idols, and was to be left alone to carry them. It is this idolatry associated with Yeshua that needs to be removed, regardless of who he is. I venture to say, that we may not be able to do it entirely by ourselves. It may have to be a Divine act. if so, we have nothing to fear, for be he the Messiah or not, he will be restored to who was and is. If I may, I venture to put forth to that effect an idea to try in this group. Am sure the basic foundation of this is not new, and many of us have seen the reliance on God's revelation in our lives to be an absolute necessity. I recommend that we all try this, in fact WE ALLDOTHIS. I mean ALL, for there is strength in numbers coming to the gates of the King with the same query. When I had my practice, by God's grace, I have been afforded the discovery of a formula that I have never seen not work with my clients. I always told them, that at best, I would be a technician who would point them in the right direction to solve their problems. This was so, because God is the ultimate doctor and therapist who can diagnose what is really wrong with them and prescribe the appropriate remedy. I told them that they will have to beseech God to that effect, and keep a journal of their prayers, their meditations about their situation and the answers they will receive, be they through whatever means, dreams being chief of them. There were to be no exceptions to this rule and requirement, and was a "must" if they were to be in therapy with me. Often, on their initial visit they would come in with a dream of the night before or a few days before, which had the diagnosis already in it, and sometimes the whole solution or parts thereof. Often other dreams would follow to lay out the necessary solution. However, they all had to ask in a certain way, and have a certain prescribed disposition. I asked them, that to obtain the healing solution to their problem, they were to approach Go d a certain way, this way: They were to go to Him, as to a doctor. They could tell Him about their problem, however, they were to not to tell Him what to do. Rather they were to go, just as to a human doctor, ready to take their clothes off. They were to go psychologically naked, letting the Doctor look and examine where-ever He wants. They were to let this examination extend to any and all parts of their lives, and nothing was to be off limits. The caveat to this procedure was that they had to be ready to accept the Doctor's advice and LET GO OF ANYTHING THEY HELD DEAR IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE DIAGNOSIS AND THE HEALING PRESCRIPTION TO THEREALPROBLEM. ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING, no holds barred. They had to be ready to pay anything. I told them my fee, and that that was the least they had to pay. It was to take time in writing in their journals, and praying and being active in the process. I told them it would take them "blood sweat and tears" to obtain the truth about themselves and to apply the solution. They were to be willing to let go of any conviction of what their problem was. Most importantly they were to be ready to let go of the solution they were applying to their perceived problem. As you know, often their "solution" was an obstacle to obtain the real solution. Letting go of this wrong solution or any obstacle to the real solution was often the major part of therapy. Doing so is not easy, and here is the formula to start that. They were to ask God20to show them"the FIRST step to take to begin to deal with their RESISTANCE to the solution,"which almost always is unconscious and is a lot more powerful and intractable than their conscious willpower. It is like an iceberg, most of which is under water, i.e. below the level of consciousness. These steps were necessary, for the obstacle and resistance could not be assaulted directly due to its long time embedded, ossified and petrified enormity. It could be approached only in small steps. Whoever did this, they always received the answer promptly, for Godalwaysresponds to pleas for help with repentance related healing. This is what He wants us to do the most. Gang, are we willing to do this formula given the affliction of the Yeshua question? It certainly meets the iceberg analogy. We need to go before God our Healer,.... naked and poor, and humble, (nakedness humbles us), and assume that we do not know the answer, and that we are ready to let go of anything and EVERYTHING we hold dear about this conundrum... regardless of what side of the aisle we are on? Come now...everyone,.... I am "poking" every single person on this list to really "go naked before God," and let Him examine us, and our dearly held beliefs, and let Him tell us what the Truth is about this Yeshua conundrum. Most importantly, even before that, we need to ask the Great Therapist to let us know what we each individually need to do to deal with our resistance to let the truth in about Yeshua? Some might say, that this is too daunting an idea and is too big for us... well, what are we here for in this calling of "the first contingent to arise from the Valley of Dry bones?" Let's get to work gang!! There is nothing to fear, if the convictions are true they will be verified, if they are mixed with error, they will be corrected, if we are wrong, we will be corrected and liberated... let's get out of our dark prison houses, His light has shone in on us and we need to move out into His Light!! Who is willing to do that? Let us know and let's do this "project." we are called to a Work, and we need "to work" on this part of our affliction. In case some do not know, we are in therapy NOW. We need to do this, to be of use in the work of Eli Y-h!! Let's go gang!! It is time to move on this!! NOW.... Steve BTW, if you do not know already, an alternate way to conceptualize this, it is the building of "the Mishkan of Prayers." It is built by all of called Israel, Jews and Ten Tribers, in whose prayers Hashem's Presence, the Shekhinah dwells. We desperately need to build this edifice, so we can have the Divine Guidance therein to direct us on our journey homeward in the midbar / wilderness of beliefs, philosophies, outlooks, theologies and isms of the nations. Let's go gang!!!! At 07:15 AM 7/29/2008, you wrote: ? Dear Steve: ? I appreciate your comments and thoughts on reconciliation on this dialogue as well as the reconciliation between the house of Judah a nd the house of Ephraim. As far as I can tell there is agreement by all on the list in regard to keeping the Torah of Ha Shem. But there is a wall a stumbling if you will between one side with the other. It is little to no difference than the division between the disciples of Yeshua who believed he was the promised messiah, and the Jewish authorities who saw him as a messiah pretender. As far as the historical ministry of Yeshua in his attempt to return his generation back to the old paths, there is no disagreement as far as I can observe by any on the list. What divides us is what did the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua accomplish in the redemption plan of Ha Shem? This is the wall that is up between the two sides on the dialogue list. ? It is the same division that caused the heat in late second temple between the Jewish authorities and the followers of Yeshua. For me I will not for a moment budge from my strong conviction that Yeshua plays a major part in the redemption plan of G-d. On the other side I would venture to say that they too would not budge from their conviction that Yeshua is not needed in the redemption plan of G-d. And so what are we to do since it seems the wall cannot be penetrated by either side? It is not that there is bad folks on either side of the wall, it is just each side seems to have made up their minds on what they believe and why they believe it. We can avoid disagreement by staying away from the issue of20what the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua means in the plan of G-d redeeming the world through him, that some of us hold strong opinions, while the other side of the wall see no need for Yeshua in the redemption plan of G-d. ? And so if someone has a way to break a hole in the wall that divides us I would appreciate hearing it. That wall has lasted nearly two-thousand years now, and no breach of the wall has yet occurred. This is where the rubber meets the road - Is Yeshua necessary as our Passover from death to eternal life or is he not? Do we need to go through Yeshua to obtain the grace of G-d or not? Is Yeshua our high priest or not? One side of the wall would say yes to all the questions, while the other side will say no. The wall is there my friends an no amount of denying it will do. And so who has the answer to these hard questions? ? Clyde Get fantasy football with free live scoring.Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ = _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ = _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/472ab629/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 10:36:40 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 11:36:40 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Beheading Message-ID: Does anyone have more information on the beheading in Canada, on the bus? Was this related to Islamic Terrorists? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/150a74c3/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 10:40:55 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 11:40:55 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. Redemption with mercy..... daily lessons. In-Reply-To: <4892CFC9.1030000@westnet.com.au> References: <4892CFC9.1030000@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thanks Joe! Chris and Amber On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 4:56 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > *Shabbat Shalom Chaverim, > * > > * > Here are the 60 lessons by Rabbi Pinchas Winston. I hope they are a > blessing to you as they have been to me. Lesson No 4 is of interest for > those meditating about the unification of Beit Yehudah and Beit Yosef. > * > > *I recommend one lesson a day. > * > > *Shabbat Shalom > JOE. > * > http://web.mac.com/pwinston/iWeb/Site%2023/Lesson-A-Day/Lesson-A-Day.html > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/38b11118/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 10:43:39 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 11:43:39 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] "Longing for a better future" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for this Hanoch! Been fasting for the three weeks of mourning. Nice to have an article to focus on during this time! Amber On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 7:22 AM, wrote: > [image: Festival] by Rabbi Yehuda L. Oppenheimer > *Longing for a better future.* > > Unless things change a whole lot in the next few weeks, we will once again > be going through the days leading up to and including Tisha B'Av, the Ninth > Day of the Month of Av, the saddest day on the Jewish calendar. Year after > year, we reflect on our condition in the Diaspora, and what this long, > seemingly endless exile is supposed to teach us, while awaiting the long > sought for Redemption. > > There is an interesting anecdote recorded regarding a meeting between the > prophet Jeremiah and the famous Greek philosopher, Plato. Jeremiah was > mourning the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem, and Plato engaged > him in conversation. Impressed with Jeremiah's great wisdom, Plato asked > him, "I do not understand how a sage of your stature can weep so bitterly > over something that is over and done with. Surely, what is past is finished > with, and your concern now ought to be solely with the future, and how you > can influence it. What possible use can there be in all of this weeping?" > > Jeremiah answered, "I cannot give you a proper answer to your logical > question, for you will not understand it." > > Was Plato not right? And surely now, 2500 years later, is it not time to > focus on the present and the future, and to let bygones be bygones? Can we > never forget? Can we never forgive? After all this time, how can we spend > three weeks of every year going into greater and greater mourning, > culminating in a day of fast and sadness? > > In fact, one of the great blessings that God grants us is the ability to > forget painful memories. "God has decreed about a deceased person that they > should be forgotten from the heart" (Sofrim 21). If it was not possible to > forget, if the pain of losing a close relative or friend remained always as > immediate as when the loss first occurs, we would be immobilized, unable to > cope with life. It is a blessing that while we always carry a memory of a > departed loved one, we are able to remove the pain of the loss from the > forefront of our consciousness. > > Nevertheless, this general rule does not hold here, as expressed by the > famous verse in Psalms, "If I forget thee O Jerusalem, let my right hand be > forgotten!" We are bidden never to forget! The sages, by instituting all of > the laws surrounding these three weeks, made sure that at least during one > long period of the year, and several other fast days year-round, not to > mention the requests in our thrice-daily prayers, that we would constantly > remember and never forget to mourn for Jerusalem. > > The Slonimer Rebbe, Rabbi Sholom Noah Barzovsky, zt"l, wrote a fascinating > essay on this subject, in which he noted that central to Tisha B'Av is the > idea that we are not to make our peace, ever, with the fact that the Holy > Temple, the Beit Hamikdash, was destroyed. To never allow ourselves the > thought that we accept the post-Temple world as the new, normal, permanent > reality for us as Jews. The Temple is Jerusalem was destroyed for many > reasons, some more well known than others. But that was never meant to be > its final disposition. The day that we stop hoping that the Beit Hamikdash > will be rebuilt is the day that its destruction will really be irreversible. > > > This is such a basic thought that it ought to permeate all of our concerns > in life. We struggle with our problems, with our kid's education, with our > personal growth, with financial problems, existential problems; we look at > the communal scene and the national scene both here in Israel. We listen to > the pundits and "wise men" who have this solution to intractable problems or > who point to that occurrence to explain the crux of our quandaries, and we > forget that the main problem is Exile -- our distance from God and his Holy > Temple in Jerusalem. That no matter how many problems we solve here in > America and Israel, and regardless of how much we grow in our spiritual > lives as Jews, we will have a huge gaping hole in our spiritual lives as > long as "we have been exiled from our land, and we cannot fulfill our > obligations in your great and holy House..." > > Why are so many Jews distant from their spiritual roots? Why are there so > many terrible, endless problems between groups of Jews? How are we ever > going to be able to resolve the great issues that divide us, when those > matters are based on such fundamentally different outlooks on what the Torah > is, what it means to be Jewish, the nature of our Jewish obligations, and > how flexible can we be about adapting them for modern times? What will it > take to allow myriads of Jews who have no idea of the beauty of Shabbat, > keeping kosher, learning Torah, and Jewish living to even have a real > glimmer of what they are missing? How will the great problems surrounding > the Land of Israel ever be resolved? > > When we will be able to always feel the indescribable joy of being close to > God without the inner contradictions and pain and difficulty, and > existential loneliness that we so often feel in our spiritual quest? > > Our aching longings to reunite with God and rebuild the Temple are the > building blocks of the eventual edifice. Although in many ways Judaism > teaches that what one does is more important than what one thinks or > believes, it is nevertheless true that "The longing to perform a mitzvah, or > to engage in a spiritual pleasure, is even greater than the pleasure > itself." The active awaiting of its rebuilding, the tears shed over its > absence -- the effort to not assimilate into the surrounding culture and its > alien values, but rather to strive to retain our uniquely Jewish selves -- > these are what will eventually bring it back. Every tear shed and every sigh > over its absence is another element in the building. > > Thus, says the Slonimer Rebbe, the period of the three weeks between the > 17th of Tammuz and Tisha B'Av are a period of crying, but a positive period: > a crying that is part of the rebuilding process. A cry of hope, of longing > for a better future -- an expression from the depths of the soul that we > will never be satisfied and complacent in our spiritual quest until we have > achieved total *Teshuva* (repentance), back to the closeness with God that > once was and is still potentially possible. > > We must certainly face life with a happy, confident attitude. We must take > time to enjoy our growth, to celebrate our Jewishness, and to sing with the > joy of being fortunate to be engaged in building our spiritual lives > inwardly, as well as in our families and communities. But we must also take > the time to mourn a little inwardly; about all the potential that is there, > that is not yet being fulfilled. Only thus will we continue to grow, and > look forward to the day that our inner sanctuary will be fully built, > heralding the time of Mashiach, speedily in our days. > > This article can also be read at: > http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Festival_of_Sadness.asp > > > Click here to receive more inspiring articles like this > > *Author Biography:* > Rabbi Yehuda L. Oppenheimer is the recently appointed Rabbi at the Young > Israel of Forest Hills, NY, after serving in Jewish Outreach for many years > in Portland, Oregon, where he & his wife Lonni helped several aish.comcontributors reconnect with their Jewish roots while growing a spiritual > community > > > > > ------------------------------ > Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy > Football today > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/1020caaf/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Aug 1 12:32:07 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:32:07 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Message-ID: <200808011732.m71HW5vu030744@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear form Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." i want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/880e3ec7/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Fri Aug 1 14:13:04 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:13:04 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A really terrible anniversary Message-ID: <8CAC221C24737AD-1768-20F2@webmail-me07.sysops.aol.com> Mourning Ritual By Nathan Jeffay Thu. Jul 31, 2008 ? ? Haifa, Israel ? In Avi Ben-Shimon?s home in the West Bank town of Emmanuel, a memorial candle will burn throughout the fast day of Tisha B?Av, which begins at sundown August 9. It will not, however, commemorate the main theme of the 25-hour fast, which is the destruction of the two ancient Jerusalem temples. Rather, it will commemorate what Ben-Shimon calls a modern-day ?tragedy? ? evacuation of the Jewish settlements in Gaza. As right-wing Knesset members turned to parliamentary procedure July 30 to vent their continuing anger over the 2005 disengagement, pushing through a bill for the creation of a commission of inquiry into alleged government neglect of evacuees, thousands of Orthodox Zionists like Ben-Shimon prepared to turn to another outlet: ritual. The official deadline for voluntary departure of Gush Katif residents from their Gaza homes in August 2005 coincided with the Fast of Av, although a two-day extension was granted at the last minute. Opponents at the time drew parallels between the forced evacuation of Jewish communities and the long-ago destruction of the biblical temples. And now, despite objections from liberal sectors of the Religious Zionist community, this rhetorical connection is now being enshrined in ritual. Those who light candles will be following a new directive from several leading rabbis of the Religious Zionist movement who are encouraging this and other mourning rites as part20of an ongoing campaign to make the departure from Gush Katif an inseparable part of the mourning ceremonies of the Fast of Av. ?The candles are being lit to remember and light a new light for settlements,? said Shai Gefen, director of the right-wing activist group SOS-Israel, which expects to sell 300,000 specially produced candles across Israel before the fast. They come in a tin emblazoned with a slogan calling the Fast of Av the day of Gush Katif?s ?churban? ? an evocative word for ?destruction? normally reserved for that of the temples and for the Holocaust. The Fast of Av was instituted after the destruction of the Second Temple by Roman forces in August of the year 70, and later extended to commemorate the fall of the First Temple to Babylonian forces, traditionally thought to fall on the same date in 586 BCE. It has since absorbed other themes, which have been integrated into its liturgy, including crusades, various expulsions, pogroms and, most recently, the Holocaust. The fact that the actions of the Jewish state are being mourned on a day previously reserved for lamenting calamities perpetrated on Jews on by non-Jewish regimes has evoked the fury of left-leaning Orthodox Zionists. Proponents of the parallel ?are out of touch with reality? and their territorial ambitions unrealistic, said Aviezer Ravitsky, who is a founder of the left-wing Orthodox party Meimad and a professor of Jewish thought at Hebrew University. ?I don?t see any reason to mourn because we can?t have Gush Katif,? he added. Rabbi Yuval Cherlow, a leading proponent of moderate Religious Zionism and founder of the Tzohar organization for Orthodox-secular reconciliation, complained of a ?lack of a sense of proportion.? He said that while he opposed the Gaza withdrawal, ?if we compare the disengagement to events like the Holocaust, we will isolate ourselves. This will increase the isolation of the Religious Zionist movement.? But from Gefen?s viewpoint, ?It is actually more serious because Jews did it ? not Nebuchadnezzar but Sharon.? He added: ?In many ways, it was like the destruction of the temple. Twenty-three synagogues were lost.? This belief prompted the call for candle lighting. It was signed by some of the leading rabbis of the Religious Zionist right, including Safed chief rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu; Yaakov Yosef, the popular Jerusalem rabbi and son of Shas spiritual leader Ovadia Yosef, and Dov Lior, chief rabbi of Hebron and Kiryat Arba and chairman of settler movement?s rabbinic arm, the Rabbinical Council of Judea and Samaria. These rabbis are seen by some as firebrands, as is the man who heads the organization selling the special candles, Shalom Dov Wolpe of SOS-Israel. An educator associated with the messianic wing of the Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidic movement, Wolpe made headlines in January after alleging that if Israel were properly run, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert would be ?hanged fr om the gallows.? In an interview with the Forward on July 28, he called the disengagement a ?sin done by the government of Israel.? Despite misgivings, there is ?quite a broad-based backing for this kind of idea in the religious community,? said Hebrew University political scientist Mordechai Nisan, who has studied the disengagement. Indeed, the bastion of the Religious Zionist establishment, the National Religious Party, views the candle campaign as a ?good idea, as it?s important to remember this and to ensure that Israel does not neglect it and that it could not happen again,? party spokesman Yigal Amitai told the Forward. Summer camps and chapters of the Religious Zionist youth movement Bnei Akiva ?will run ceremonies for Gush Katif? in which ?they will make the connection between Tisha B?av and the evacuation,? movement spokesman Aviad Shahar said. Amitai, asked if he is concerned that absorbing the disengagement theme into the Fast of Av would detract from the day?s solemnity, replied: ?Someone wrote [for the day?s liturgy] on the Kishinev pogrom. Nobody would say this takes away from the day.? In fact, liturgy is one of the other channels through which the disengagement theme is being injected into rituals of the Fast of Av. The day?s mourning is most intense when synagogue congregants sit on the floor and recite the biblical book of Lamentations, written after the First Temple was destroyed. Over=2 0the past 1,000 years, the structure of this book has been mimicked in poetic dirges called kinnot, which are also recited. Now, kinnot to the evacuation of Gush Katif are circulating and will be recited in many synagogues and homes. One of these kinnot, distributed by the Shiloh Institute, which is an Orthodox research body that is developing a specifically Israeli liturgy, closely follows the style of Lamentations and early kinnot. It is titled ?Eicha? ? the first word of Lamentations ? which means ?how,? and subtitled ?Dirge for the destruction of 25 settlements in the Land of Israel and the exile of their residents at the hands of their brothers from the House of Israel.? The institute?s head, Rabbi Dawidh Bar-Hayim, told the Forward that the disengagement should be integrated into the liturgy of the Fast of Av because in addition to ?the terrible danger in which the event placed all of Israel,? it shares a theme of ?human tragedy? with other events commemorated. He was referring to reports that many evacuees have not been effectively resettled, such as a recent survey that found 81% are still in temporary housing and 50% are unemployed. Pinchas Leiser, a spokesman for the dovish Orthodox group Netivot Shalom, said that his organization shares a belief that the Fast of Av should be used to reflect on recent events ? though not the disengagement: ?We consider intolerance and violence ? the roots behind t he destruction of the Second Temple ? as the main problem of Israeli society that may lead to its destruction, and therefore, symbolically, we gather at Rabin?s grave on the eve of the Fast of Av.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/30567f4e/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 16:50:23 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 07:50:23 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Blood sacrifice Message-ID: <516d73340808011450s387502d2j3bfad1c255142716@mail.gmail.com> Shalom Pat, I appreciate your response, but why did you think I was asking about the necessity for HUMAN sacrifice? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080802/d0b3e198/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 17:00:54 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 08:00:54 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Blood sacrifice Message-ID: <516d73340808011500m77e36d00radaef9f37dc9e898@mail.gmail.com> Shalom James, Thanks for your response. So would you say that the Tanakh indicates a progression as time goes by i.e. as Israel grows up, so to speak ? Through the prophets, who are later in time than Moses, G od is now able to get through to Israel, but they are still not getting the message? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080802/90048199/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 17:07:04 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 08:07:04 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide Message-ID: <516d73340808011507s1df36f7es69e1bfb08c695ca4@mail.gmail.com> G'day Clyde, The sticking point will always be the understanding of Christian theology that God came down in human flesh as Jesus and that it was God who payed the redemptive price of reconciliation on the cross. Christian theology is also based on the Shema. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080802/93f3634c/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 17:30:20 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 18:30:20 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Blood sacrifice In-Reply-To: <516d73340808011450s387502d2j3bfad1c255142716@mail.gmail.com> References: <516d73340808011450s387502d2j3bfad1c255142716@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry if I misunderstood, Brian. I thought you were advocating that Yeshua was a blood sacrifice for sin in place of animal sacrifice. I am going to do what Steve asks, and keep praying for HaSHem to reveal His Way to me. I can honestly say that if Yeshua proved to be Messiah, and if his blood proved to be necessary from Redemption/Eternal Life, I would have absolutely NO PROBLEM with repenting AGAIN and turning around to go back in the same direction I used to be going!!!! I truly think that is one thing upon which we can all agree...........we want to serve the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and we want, wholeheartedly, to do it His Way, not our own. Pat From: Brian McFarlane Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 5:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Blood sacrifice Shalom Pat, I appreciate your response, but why did you think I was asking about the necessity for HUMAN sacrifice? Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/f0602d3c/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 17:35:43 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 15:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide Message-ID: <184647.50699.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Brian, If I may interject something quickly: We must differentiate between Catholic Theology and that of the Testimony of Yeshua and his students (aka:?the New Testament): I must argue that their Testimony shows Yeshua ben David?to be?"an agent" of HaShem - not HaShem Himself. BIG Difference.?Studying the?'law of agency' is of real benefit. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Brian McFarlane To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, August 1, 2008 6:07:04 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide G'day Clyde, The sticking point will always be the understanding of Christian theology that God came down in human flesh as Jesus and that it was God who?payed the redemptive price of reconciliation?on the cross. Christian theology is also based on the Shema. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/e77f807f/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 1 17:34:18 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 22:34:18 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide In-Reply-To: <516d73340808011507s1df36f7es69e1bfb08c695ca4@mail.gmail.com> References: <516d73340808011507s1df36f7es69e1bfb08c695ca4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <59693887-1217630493-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2061065996-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Shabbat Shalom all. John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Brian McFarlane" Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 08:07:04 To: Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide _______________________________________________ From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 18:11:43 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 16:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide Message-ID: <868092.91766.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I should have provided a reference. Here is one: In discussing the mechanism of legal agency, Jewish law sees the "principal" working through the "emissary" in three possible ways: 1) The emissary's final achievement is attributed to the principal 2) The emissary's every action is attributed to the principal 3) The emissary completely embodies the principal. http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/livingtorah_cdo/aid/574990/jewish/The-Shlichus-Needs-You.htm Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, August 1, 2008 6:35:43 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Wall of divide Shalom Brian, ? If I may interject something quickly: We must differentiate between Catholic Theology and that of the Testimony of Yeshua and his students (aka:?the New Testament): I must argue that their Testimony shows Yeshua ben David?to be?"an agent" of HaShem - not HaShem Himself. BIG Difference.?Studying the?'law of agency' is of real benefit. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Brian McFarlane To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, August 1, 2008 6:07:04 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide G'day Clyde, The sticking point will always be the understanding of Christian theology that God came down in human flesh as Jesus and that it was God who?payed the redemptive price of reconciliation?on the cross. Christian theology is also based on the Shema. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/0812f06b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Aug 1 22:02:35 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 22:02:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide & MORE work to do In-Reply-To: <59693887-1217630493-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2061065996-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <826639D75AE84701BBE48699C6C2C530@bettygivin> Thank you, John. Yes, Shabbat Shalom to you and Carin and all! Have a blessed one...I am fading fast and looking forward to a wonderful peaceful night's sleep. May you all have the same...and a beautiful day tomorrow enjoying the blessings of Sabbath...may they be many! You will all be in my prayers this evening. Steve has again given us some very wise words and thoughts upon which to meditate and pray. Thank you, Steve. I know I certainly don't have all the answers and still have much to learn and much growing to do and want to always be open to the path Hashem puts me on...I truly believe that is what we all want...As we pray, and do t'shuvah and spend time with Him during these awesome days leading up to Tisha B'Av, May HaShem open doors for all of us and go before us with his Magnificent Presence, and teach us discernment and give us patience, love, and understanding for one another as He has towards us, His children... Shalom, shalom! Betty/Elsheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 5:34 PM To: Dialogue Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Wall of divide Shabbat Shalom all. John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Brian McFarlane" Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 08:07:04 To: Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 2 01:56:24 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 16:56:24 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The WORK of understanding Message-ID: <516d73340808012356p40c61abt631ca8b586e1b224@mail.gmail.com> Shalom to all, To turn to God with all our heart and all our understanding has been the consistent goal of my life. As God graciously reveals Himself to me I know I am accepted. As I interact with others of similar intent I no longer debate the issue of how God accepts us. He accepts all who are of a contrite heart and He is always continually willing to accept them and reveal Himself to them. The necessity of Torah and Yeshua are no longer important issues of dialogue to me because I have long lived by the revelations of both. The O.T. says turn to God, the N.T. says seek God, both Testaments say love God and love one another- is there any better way to live? At the end of the day to go a step further and discuss these things leaves one's self open to the possibility of calling into question the experience and understanding of other conscientious followers of God. Everything we read and hear in our lives today is the end result of fallible individuals' understandings of God and the how , when, where, why, and what of His self revelation. Pilate asked the question, "What is truth?" For the spiritually inclined God is the only Truth. For those not so inclined God is only a proposition that can be only scientifically proved or disproved. I can not go before God "naked" because He has already clothed me. I dare not go and ask Him to reveal truthful understandings of Him because He has said to me, "Have you been so long with Me yet you do not understand?" My personal problem has always been about how to reveal God's love to a needy neighbor, regardless of what that need is. Brian McFarlane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080802/af926c3b/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 2 02:01:00 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 17:01:00 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Grace and peace to all Message-ID: <516d73340808020001s70f8d3feu7979141fbffdfca9@mail.gmail.com> Shalom, RoF posters tell me there is a wall of divide. For me there is no wall of divide. God has broken down the wall of divide. Now there is no place to hide. Brian McFarlane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080802/742d0170/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 02:47:15 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 03:47:15 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Blood sacrifice In-Reply-To: <516d73340808011500m77e36d00radaef9f37dc9e898@mail.gmail.com> References: <516d73340808011500m77e36d00radaef9f37dc9e898@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2074DB19-9A59-4734-B051-4E998F82EDA0@earthlink.net> Thanks Brian, I do indeed believe that and I think you can see it through the flow of the unfolding story and some of the high ideals of the future that the Prophets put forth for the time to come. James On Aug 1, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Brian McFarlane wrote: > Shalom James, > Thanks for your response. So would you say that the Tanakh indicates > a progression as time goes by i.e. as Israel grows up, so to speak ? > Through the prophets, who are later in time than Moses, G od is now > able to get through to Israel, but they are still not getting the > message? > Brian > _______________________________________________ From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 2 11:21:41 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 16:21:41 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide In-Reply-To: <184647.50699.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <080220081621.29966.489489950008BC820000750E22230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Tracy, I gotta say something here. I am familiar with the law of agency, it is a fundamental principle that anyone who studies the Hebrew concept of messiah must understand. But what seems obvious to you may not be so obvious to everyone else. You seem to imply here (and have done so in the past) that the Diety of Jesus is solely a Catholic idea. I strongly beg to differ. While Protestantism rejects the trans-substantiation of the body and blood which is part of Catholic liturgy, they in no way reject Trinitarian beliefs. As I've said before, I don't know which denominations you have been associated with in the past but my experience (and it is not small) has been that most groups who call themselves "Christian" believe in the diety of Jesus. You seem to say that it is obviously a given that the Apostles considered Yeshua as an agent rather than G-d in the flesh. I for one believe that most of the Apostles believed exactly that. But the problem lies in the interpretation of what they said and the doctrine that has been built up around it. I just want to point out that from a traditional "Christian" perspective" (in my experience) your statement here is a minority view. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Shalom Brian, If I may interject something quickly: We must differentiate between Catholic Theology and that of the Testimony of Yeshua and his students (aka: the New Testament): I must argue that their Testimony shows Yeshua ben David to be "an agent" of HaShem - not HaShem Himself. BIG Difference. Studying the 'law of agency' is of real benefit. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Brian McFarlane To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, August 1, 2008 6:07:04 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide G'day Clyde, The sticking point will always be the understanding of Christian theology that God came down in human flesh as Jesus and that it was God who payed the redemptive price of reconciliation on the cross. Christian theology is also based on the Shema. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080802/0589d8d7/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Sat Aug 2 14:02:03 2008 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 19:02:03 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Vacation Message-ID: <1760499139-1217703683-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-356385075-@bxe103.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I am spending Shabbat with my family. We have been camping at a state park in Arkansas. The weather is extremely hot, but we are well equipped (Bridget purchased an air conditioner for the tent). Bridget and the kids are swimming and I am under a tree with my Bible today, studying Jeremiah 50-52. We spent all day yesterday on a rented boat. We all rode horses on a trail ride one day. We've had adventure after adventure. It is wonderful to have some down time with one's family. I am thinking of how much fun Succoth will be this year. Several have already signed up and I will be sending out further communications as we work out the details. Just wanted to say shabbat shalom from the campsite here in Arkansas. Love and shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Aug 2 19:46:49 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 10:46:49 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHAVUAH TOV :Videos Message-ID: <4894FFF9.4000206@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/1b7791f0/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Aug 2 21:45:28 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 22:45:28 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Some thoughts before Tisha B'Av Message-ID: Shavua tov L'Kulchem, Occasionally, I'll read something that pretty much states what I've been thinking, or what's in my heart. The brief article below does a fairly good job of that... Hanoch Decency, please Praying at the Western Wall is a special moment for Jews, particularly on the 9th of Av. Today, we fast and commemorate the destroyed Temple. That solemn mood meets cheering and screaming crowds of tourists near the Wall. They pose against the background of the remains of our Holy Temple and laugh and take pictures. The inside of the Vatican is off-limits to tourists, and non-Muslims are banned from Mecca and even from the famous mosques. Jesus warned against casting pearls before swine (the Talmud more politely, speaks of onion sellers in a similar proverb), but Israel's rulers, eager to expunge Jewish religion from society, show the most sacred remains off. Jerusalem, like a prostitute, opens herself for everyone to see, and foreigners flock to look at her nakedness. The Dome of the Rock hangs above the Wall, a constant humiliating reminder of the Muslim triumph over Judaism, and also of the moral bankruptcy of the Jewish state. No other country would tolerate monuments to foreign occupation at her sacred places. Christians converted Spanish mosques into churches. Muslims raze and burn synagogues even in our days. The Israeli government preserves the Dome not to avoid offending Muslims but to humiliate religious Jews, the real enemy of the secular Jewish state bereft of Judaism. Obadiah Soher Samson Option for the Blind Country (pages 43- 44) **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080802/19202d45/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Aug 2 21:51:10 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 22:51:10 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Please Remember Gush Katif.... Message-ID: _Click here: YouTube - Gush Katif Video_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm11qDwSVlk) **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080802/26c38082/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Aug 2 21:59:02 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 22:59:02 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Gush Katif Forever... Message-ID: _Click here: YouTube - gush katif_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB_e7S37tr0&feature=related) **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080802/e5610b71/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Aug 2 22:16:26 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 22:16:26 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Some thoughts before Tisha B'Av In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4EA62B9ACCCB4B1CBEF327B19B5E54F9@bettygivin> This piece was gut-wrenching, Hanoch! And all in the name of peace?! The author is so right.no other country in the world would permit such a thing! The thinking of the leadership in Israel is so ludicrious. Reading the parsha today Massei and its accompanying haftarah, Jer 1:1-2:3 should be a reminder of what happens when the Jewish people do not follow Hashem's teachings.I just wonder how much more it will take before the Israeli government and the people who support it will wake up to the reality of what is happening and its dire consequences! One particular verse from the haftarah makes me weep every time I read it because it is so tragic. Jer.2:13 "For two wrongs have My people committed: they have forsaken Me, the Fount of living waters, to dig out for themselves cisterns, broken cisterns which do not hold water. Today we finished the Book of Bamidbar, Numbers, and next Sabbath we will begin with Devarim (Deuteronomy). As you know, the recitation in the synagogues, shuls and Jewish temples all over the world after the end of a book is "Chazak, chazak, v'neit chaza!" Be strong and let us encourage one another!!! May it be so! Shavua tov, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: uilist-bounces at unitedisrael.org [mailto:uilist-bounces at unitedisrael.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 9:43 PM To: uilist at unitedisrael.org Subject: [UILIST] Thoughts before Tisha B'Av Shavua tov L'Kulchem, Occasionally, I'll read something that pretty much states what I've been thinking, or what's in my heart. The brief article below does a fairly good job of that... Hanoch Decency, please Praying at the Western Wall is a special moment for Jews, particularly on the 9th of Av. Today, we fast and commemorate the destroyed Temple. That solemn mood meets cheering and screaming crowds of tourists near the Wall. They pose against the background of the remains of our Holy Temple and laugh and take pictures. The inside of the Vatican is off-limits to tourists, and non-Muslims are banned from Mecca and even from the famous mosques. Jesus warned against casting pearls before swine (the Talmud more politely, speaks of onion sellers in a similar proverb), but Israel's rulers, eager to expunge Jewish religion from society, show the most sacred remains off. Jerusalem, like a prostitute, opens herself for everyone to see, and foreigners flock to look at her nakedness. The Dome of the Rock hangs above the Wall, a constant humiliating reminder of the Muslim triumph over Judaism, and also of the moral bankruptcy of the Jewish state. No other country would tolerate monuments to foreign occupation at her sacred places. Christians converted Spanish mosques into churches. Muslims raze and burn synagogues even in our days. The Israeli government preserves the Dome not to avoid offending Muslims but to humiliate religious Jews, the real enemy of the secular Jewish state bereft of Judaism. Obadiah Soher Samson Option for the Blind Country (pages 43- 44) _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080802/0b928a36/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Aug 2 22:19:41 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 22:19:41 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Vacation In-Reply-To: <1760499139-1217703683-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-356385075-@bxe103.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4828C6B7E79A4302B0B326B56B11B0D7@bettygivin> Ross, what a wonderful post! I am so glad that you are getting some much needed time away to be with your family. I hope the remainder of your trip is as rewarding and fun-filled as the first part. Looking forward to Sukkoth along with you! Shavua tov, Betty/Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Ross Nichols Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 2:02 PM To: Dialogue List; United Israel Subject: [Dialogue] Vacation I am spending Shabbat with my family. We have been camping at a state park in Arkansas. The weather is extremely hot, but we are well equipped (Bridget purchased an air conditioner for the tent). Bridget and the kids are swimming and I am under a tree with my Bible today, studying Jeremiah 50-52. We spent all day yesterday on a rented boat. We all rode horses on a trail ride one day. We've had adventure after adventure. It is wonderful to have some down time with one's family. I am thinking of how much fun Succoth will be this year. Several have already signed up and I will be sending out further communications as we work out the details. Just wanted to say shabbat shalom from the campsite here in Arkansas. Love and shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T _______________________________________________ From rndavar at aol.com Sat Aug 2 23:13:54 2008 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 04:13:54 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] No Sunday Shul Message-ID: <378401317-1217736797-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1862325834-@bxe103.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Just a reminder that there will be no Sunday Shul this week. I will be back on line next Sunday for a special Sunday Shul class. I'm not going to give the subject of my class away, but next Sunday is the 9th of Av if I am not mistaken. Shalom to all of you, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Aug 3 01:09:03 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:09:03 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work In-Reply-To: <200808011732.m71HW5vu030744@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200808011732.m71HW5vu030744@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <200808030609.m73690wp013880@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: >Friends, Coworkers, > >As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, >there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment >on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their >corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is >fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their >positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this >conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise >at all? Why ask G-d? > >Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject >of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for >salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. >I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal >with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out >the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for >anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our >positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I >recommended. > >Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This >could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically >"naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. >It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" >is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is >true of what I believe." > >I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and >the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or >something entirely different. We have to allow for those >possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and >allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My >thoughts are not your thoughts......" > >The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one >adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal >with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance >to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless >of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this >conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even >with the preliminary first step (above) to this. > >I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like >Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more >gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and >just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how >you are faring in this "work." > >Shabbat Shalom, > >Steve > >"Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel." > >Ps. >The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle >with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has >a direct bearing on this conundrum question. > > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080802/54ae612c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Aug 3 06:08:08 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 21:08:08 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Gush Katif Forever...] Message-ID: <48959198.2070605@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/1bc32b79/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] Gush Katif Forever... Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 22:59:02 EDT Size: 5573 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/1bc32b79/attachment.eml From arvidson at ctc.net Sun Aug 3 08:11:08 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 09:11:08 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work In-Reply-To: <200808030609.m73690wp013880@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <20080803131108.KEDE11626.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Hi Steve, I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here is "two cents" worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. I don't know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel's dialectic. One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis. These are poles apart - hence people tend to get "stuck" in their own position. But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis. At least I think that is the case - and if so - then it may be applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. Shine on, Gary _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/f3ce8c1b/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 08:29:03 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 09:29:03 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Gush Katif Forever...] In-Reply-To: <48959198.2070605@westnet.com.au> References: <48959198.2070605@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thank you so much, Joe, for introducing us to these brave and wonderful people from Gush Katif! I appreciate this post very much, and am looking forward to hearing more about or hopefully, from them. Love and Shavua Tov, Avigail/Pat From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 7:08 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Gush Katif Forever...] Shalom and Todah Hanoch, for your contribution of the presentations on the Gush. Watching this day of infamy will go down in the annals of Jewish history as truely a black armband day. Viewing these scenes gave me a cocktail mixture of emotions. For me personally it rings true to home as I have had the privilege in meeting ten families from Eley Sinai here on the sunny Gold Coast of Australia. Two families are now temporary residents. We have become extremely close and spend Shabbats together. Dror and Eli are now under the employment of my builder. Words cannot explain the relationship that has been forged. Yehudah and Yosef "together" is a work in progress and a living reality in my life at this point in time. The stories that they have told me about the expulsion ( I refuse to call it a disengagement) would make the hairs on the back of your neck stand on edge. Dror is an Yisraeli architect. So we already have much in common. He was a student of Gershon, the architect who designed and built the synagogue in the video in the shape of the Magen David. Only the ashes remain!!!. Dror showed me photos of all the houses and projects that he undertook and built in the Gush. They are also ash remains. Back in 2003 Dror and his wife Sarita were shot by Palestinian Terrorists during the Succot festival. Unfortunately their next door neighbour Liron and her fiance' were not so fortunate. They were murdered in cold blood in Dror's back yard. The miracles that HaShem performed that day were quite incredible. The terrorists were acting in tandem as they came in behind the sand dunes. They were armed with Kalashnikovs and armed to the teeth. When they stormed into Dror's house they sprayed the living room with bullets. Dror was hit twice and Sarita once. Both lay critically injured on the floor. The bullets hit the solar hot water cistern on the roof. The gush of water short circuited the electrical supply. Their 3 children lay frightened on the floor in the next room. The eldest daughter Or (9 years old at the time) was able to keep Shir (6 years) and Aviv(3 years) quiet and calm. What presence of mind. To this very day this very beautiful young woman is very shy and introverted. By the grace of HaShem they all survived. Next, these balaclava masked gunmen went across the street to the Hakmon residence. Yitzchak was hiding in his Succah. The gunmen sprayed the Succah with a volley of machine gun rounds. Yitzchak was not even hit. The bullets hit all around him. They even threw a grenade into the Succah which failed to explode. One of the gunmen ran across the street and climbed a tower overlooking the central playground area to sniper at the residents. There were 20 or so children huddled in the playground. They opened fire. Baruch HaShem ....... not one child was injured ! By this time the Yisraeli army tanks had arrived. These two murderers eventually were killed. The entire area around the playground was covered with grenades that had failed to explode. Miracles upon Miracles. Young Liron and her fiance' did not make it. May HaShem vindicate their young innocent blood that cries from the ground. These incredible people decided to stay together after the expulsion . They lived in a tent city. 80 odd families. They refused to allow the Yisraeli government to divide them in various areas around Yisrael. They remained in the tents for exactly one year. During this period Eli, a journalist and Sarita, a lawyer had a vision for their community. They wanted to be reinstated by the government to Palmachim, a kibbutz about 10 kilometers south of Tel Aviv on prime beach front real estate. Everyone thought that they were insane because the demand was audacious to say the least. The government tried everything to block their request. But with prayer and emunah they kept lobbying the government. They just kept hammering away without relent. Two years to the day after they left the tents on Sunday the 20th of July (17th of Tammuz) this year , Ehud Olmert finally and officially signed the legal documents to validate this request. Another Miracle of HaShem. There is a twist to all of this. Palmachim is a secular kibbutz with an aging population. 32 families with their children will increase the population by approximately 180 residents. This will guarantee the future of the kibbutz. Initially there was some resistance because the former residents of Eley Sinai are Torah observant. However after much consultation there has been a consensus that the communal eating hall will be totally kosher. The kindergarten will have a full time religious teacher which will attract other children from neighbouring communities. The Boys are also going to build a Synagogue which never existed before at Palmachim. It will house the same Torah scrolls that left Eley Sinai. The same Torah scrolls that led the exodus procession from Eley Sinai 3 years ago. That march was 11 kilometers. All residents left on foot dressed in sackcloth singing Shir h' malot ( Psalm 121). All going well, according to the will of HaShem they will start building in one year's time with the return in 18 to 24 month's time. Another Miracle of HaShem. I yearn to be present to witness the return of the Torah Scrolls. All that was meant for evil , HaShem has turned into goodness. In the meantime I am enjoying and cultivating or should I say that HaShem is cultivating this wonderful relationship. My desire is to join this wonderful G-d fearing community. I still have to convince my wife. But where there is a will there is a way. Dror, an architect is now labouring on my building sites. The joke is that one day I will be labouring on his building sites, or being a English translator for Eli's journal, or making kosher Sicilian pizzas in Nira's restaurant, or translating for Sarita as an aid for the olim. May Mashiach come speedily in our day. We discussed the dialogue group yesterday over Shabbat lunch. The families of Eley Sinai send their best wishes and encouragement in our endeavours. The day of unification is very close. May we merit to see the Geulah (Redemption), by the grace of HaShem. Shalom v'Ahavah Your Achi JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/11b60514/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 08:48:25 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 09:48:25 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work In-Reply-To: <20080803131108.KEDE11626.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> References: <20080803131108.KEDE11626.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: Agreed, Gary! The synthesis should be in finding the heart of our Father. For myself, I am most willing and anxious that He search me and show me my errors. Not one of us wishes to devote his life to following lies. I'm with you! - SHINE ON, STEVE! Love, Avigail/Pat From: Gary Arvidson Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 9:11 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hi Steve, I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here is "two cents" worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. I don't know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel's dialectic. One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis. These are poles apart - hence people tend to get "stuck" in their own position. But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis. At least I think that is the case - and if so - then it may be applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. Shine on, Gary -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/f1d38566/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 09:10:14 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 07:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide Message-ID: <915519.67382.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello John, Forgive me if I wasn't clear. What I meant?was that?Trinitarianism is?from?Roman Catholic Theology and the Council of Nicea that this belief system proceeds. Yes, Protestantism continues to embrace the trinity doctrine,?and I was not attempting to construe otherwise. I am very aware of this and battle it constantly. However, it is very clear to me, that?these views?are not the views of Yeshua and the Apostles. I have written on this quite a bit. http://www.onhigh.org/The%20LORD%20is%20One%20(Index).htm??There are other published books such as: The Trinity: Christianitys Self-Inflicted Wound by Anthony Buzzard, which clearly demonstrate this. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "carlson_john at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, August 2, 2008 12:21:41 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Wall of divide Tracy, ? I gotta say something here.? I am familiar with the law of agency, it is a fundamental principle that anyone who studies the Hebrew concept of messiah must understand.? But what seems obvious to you may not be so obvious to everyone else.? You seem to imply here (and have done so in the past) that the Diety of Jesus is?solely a Catholic idea.? I strongly beg to differ.? While Protestantism rejects the trans-substantiation of the body and blood which is part of Catholic liturgy, they in no way reject Trinitarian beliefs.? As I've said before, I don't know which denominations you have been associated with in the past but my experience (and it is not small) has been that most groups who call themselves "Christian" believe in the diety of Jesus. ? You seem to say that it is obviously a given that the Apostles considered Yeshua as an agent rather than G-d in the flesh.? I for one believe that most of the Apostles believed exactly that.? But the problem lies in the interpretation of what they said and the doctrine that has been built up around it.? I just want to point out that from a traditional "Christian" perspective" (in my experience) your statement here is a minority view. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Shalom Brian, ? If I may interject something quickly: We must differentiate between Catholic Theology and that of the Testimony of Yeshua and his students (aka:?the New Testament): I must argue that their Testimony shows Yeshua ben David?to be?"an agent" of HaShem - not HaShem Himself. BIG Difference.?Studying the?'law of agency' is of real benefit. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Brian McFarlane To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, August 1, 2008 6:07:04 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of divide G'day Clyde, The sticking point will always be the understanding of Christian theology that God came down in human flesh as Jesus and that it was God who?payed the redemptive price of reconciliation?on the cross. Christian theology is also based on the Shema. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/fc50d1c6/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 10:12:22 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 08:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Message-ID: <208490.40712.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello Steve, I, second Gary's words. I myself, learned to do this kind of soul searching praying and went through much inner healing a dozen years ago. There was inner baggage that I had buried and carried around since I was a child. I learned how?to pray with others through?gut-wrenching experiences. As one faces and addresses buried, unresolved, and marred experiences and perceptions, in the Presence of HaShem, depressions and confusions disappate and new levels of personal freedom flows forth. The 'chips' on our shoulders, that others see, but that we ourselves can't see, are removed. I have prayed along these lines that you suggest also. But, I consider that?I must always be willing to pray again and again, and stand 'naked' before HaShem and saying, "I could still be wrong or half-wrong!!" "I could have misinterpreted!! misunderstood!! or could have been deceived!!" I could have a root of fear in me thats driving me, or a root of bitterness, or root of intellectual arrogance... Our Father in heaven, The G-d of Avraham, The G-d of Isaac, The G-d of Jacob, teach me what I don't know - correct me where I need it - no matter what the cost!!!?Show me?my own arrogance and pride!! Root out of me the hindrances to solving this Yeshua conundrum. If Yeshua is not who I think he is, or part of his work has been misrepresented, and if I have fallen for any type of lie concerning him,?the blood of his death, and its meaning or lack therof?-?If he was not raised from the dead, show me!! Father, if there is an inner resistance to whatever the truth is, or a fear of the truth, of any sort, show me and lets root it out. Please!! Father, if he is as I believe, then, grant us confirmation. Grant?us?boldness with humility, along with?authority and the power?of your spirit, to proclaim what?we?see and hear.? Blessed are You, King of the Universe!!! Tracy & Lynn Osborne are praying this ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Arvidson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11:08 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hi Steve, ? I, for one, like what you are doing.? The response has been slow, so here is ?two cents? worth.? I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?).? If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis.? You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche.? Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense.? ? I don?t know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel?s dialectic.? One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis.? These are poles apart ? hence people tend to get ?stuck? in their own position.? But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis.? At least I think that is the case ? and if so ? then it may be applicable.? At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. ? Shine on, ? Gary ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work ? Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US.? With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2)? We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.)? We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below.? Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700? years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on.? That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it.? That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions.? However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum.? If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all?? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death? sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her? resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions.? However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit.? A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different.? We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know.? He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only? after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER? we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER? that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said.? Let's go to "work" on this some more gang....? everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just? watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel ." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday.? Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/3093d3ea/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 11:37:43 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 09:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Message-ID: <978114.58155.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Steve and all, As I've prayed for years over these issues and with added prayers this week, some things occur to me. ? Even if everyone on the dialog received the same answer in a vision from heaven, we would still be faced with millions of other individuals, Jewish and Christian, whom, as we shared what had happened to all of us at the same time, we would be met with strong resistance from either side of the issues that our group as a 'micro-cosm' had experienced. We would be faced with persecutions to one degree or another from either side. We still have to address Macro-cosm effectively.? ? It might not even be HaShem's will to reveal a certain part of the truth to certain ones for numerous possible reasons. The dissolving of social structures could be too devastating for some to endure. Those things should be left to HaShem - the if, when, and where's are His choosing. We should be willing to receive the truth, but His response is timed according to His own wisdom. So, if HaShem is willing to give such an experience to all of us at once, I welcome it. But, if not, then we, must build the bridges of love and trust amongst us. ? One 'revelation', which would help our relations, is, for those from some sort of Christian background,?to recognize the?offensive language?that, understandably, will put Jewish people?on the defensive: such as, if you don't believe in Yeshua, you will not have eternal life, etc., etc. ? Coming from such a background, I can and do address those kinds of issues with Christians. ? For the record, let me say: ? Based on the sampling of Jews?that?that I have met, I believe they?are: saved, born-again, holy spirit influenced, and have much to contribute to my life. I believe that such a state comes about for anyone, in a simple manner of child-like trust and love of HaShem. One does not have to understand other complexities, or even think he does, in order?to experience the Living G-d. ? HaShem has made it simple for us: ? On a computer screen, its a simple task to take hold of the mouse, point and click, and enter?a brand new world. We don't have to understand the complexities of what it took to create such a simple operation to experience its benefits. ? I may understand, or, think I understand, the "mysteries" of G-d's working; But, that, is not what "saves me". It may even get me in trouble, if I get "puffed up" in the knowledge that I think I have. I may have come up with a theory that turns out to be absolute fiction. I must be willing to alter my theory, if evidence and reason dictate. ? I address all of us as family - those who have taken hold of the mouse, pointed, and clicked. ? The other complexities we can discuss, but, that doesn't change the plain and simple - we're family. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 11:12:22 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Steve, ? I, second Gary's words. I myself, learned to do this kind of soul searching praying and went through much inner healing a dozen years ago. There was inner baggage that I had buried and carried around since I was a child. I learned how?to pray with others through?gut-wrenching experiences. As one faces and addresses buried, unresolved, and marred experiences and perceptions, in the Presence of HaShem, depressions and confusions disappate and new levels of personal freedom flows forth. The 'chips' on our shoulders, that others see, but that we ourselves can't see, are removed. ? I have prayed along these lines that you suggest also. But, I consider that?I must always be willing to pray again and again, and stand 'naked' before HaShem and saying, "I could still be wrong or half-wrong!!" "I could have misinterpreted!! misunderstood!! or could have been deceived!!" I could have a root of fear in me thats driving me, or a root of bitterness, or root of intellectual arrogance... ? Our Father in heaven, The G-d of Avraham, The G-d of Isaac, The G-d of Jacob, teach me what I don't know - correct me where I need it - no matter what the cost!!!?Show me?my own arrogance and pride!! Root out of me the hindrances to solving this Yeshua conundrum. If Yeshua is not who I think he is, or part of his work has been misrepresented, and if I have fallen for any type of lie concerning him,?the blood of his death, and its meaning or lack therof?-?If he was not raised from the dead, show me!! ? Father, if there is an inner resistance to whatever the truth is, or a fear of the truth, of any sort, show me and lets root it out. Please!! ? Father, if he is as I believe, then, grant us confirmation. Grant?us?boldness with humility, along with?authority and the power?of your spirit, to proclaim what?we?see and hear.? Blessed are You, King of the Universe!!! ? Tracy & Lynn Osborne are praying this ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Arvidson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11:08 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hi Steve, ? I, for one, like what you are doing.? The response has been slow, so here is ?two cents? worth.? I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?).? If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis.? You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche.? Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense.? ? I don?t know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel?s dialectic.? One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis.? These are poles apart ? hence people tend to get ?stuck? in their own position.? But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis.? At least I think that is the case ? and if so ? then it may be applicable.? At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. ? Shine on, ? Gary ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work ? Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US.? With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2)? We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.)? We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below.? Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700? years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on.? That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it.? That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions.? However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum.? If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all?? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death? sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her? resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions.? However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit.? A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different.? We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know.? He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only? after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER? we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER? that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said.? Let's go to "work" on this some more gang....? everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just? watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel ." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday.? Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/6f255ffc/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Aug 3 12:18:15 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 12:18:15 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Gush Katif Forever...] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2C2D9E7437E749A4B22EE8CEC5BABBA0@bettygivin> Yes, yes, Joe thank you for sharing! Their stories are remarkably courageous. and what a fitting time for you to bring them to us...they are living examples of the admonition that we recite at the end of each parsh in the synagogues throughout the world, "Chazak, chazak, v'neit chazak." Be strong, be strong and let us encourage one another! I will add them and their community to my prayers and also you, that your dream and goal of joining all of them in Israel! May Hashem bring it to pass in his time! My love and my blessings to you and all of them, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 8:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Gush Katif Forever...] Thank you so much, Joe, for introducing us to these brave and wonderful people from Gush Katif! I appreciate this post very much, and am looking forward to hearing more about or hopefully, from them. Love and Shavua Tov, Avigail/Pat From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 7:08 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Gush Katif Forever...] Shalom and Todah Hanoch, for your contribution of the presentations on the Gush. Watching this day of infamy will go down in the annals of Jewish history as truely a black armband day. Viewing these scenes gave me a cocktail mixture of emotions. For me personally it rings true to home as I have had the privilege in meeting ten families from Eley Sinai here on the sunny Gold Coast of Australia. Two families are now temporary residents. We have become extremely close and spend Shabbats together. Dror and Eli are now under the employment of my builder. Words cannot explain the relationship that has been forged. Yehudah and Yosef "together" is a work in progress and a living reality in my life at this point in time. The stories that they have told me about the expulsion ( I refuse to call it a disengagement) would make the hairs on the back of your neck stand on edge. Dror is an Yisraeli architect. So we already have much in common. He was a student of Gershon, the architect who designed and built the synagogue in the video in the shape of the Magen David. Only the ashes remain!!!. Dror showed me photos of all the houses and projects that he undertook and built in the Gush. They are also ash remains. Back in 2003 Dror and his wife Sarita were shot by Palestinian Terrorists during the Succot festival. Unfortunately their next door neighbour Liron and her fiance' were not so fortunate. They were murdered in cold blood in Dror's back yard. The miracles that HaShem performed that day were quite incredible. The terrorists were acting in tandem as they came in behind the sand dunes. They were armed with Kalashnikovs and armed to the teeth. When they stormed into Dror's house they sprayed the living room with bullets. Dror was hit twice and Sarita once. Both lay critically injured on the floor. The bullets hit the solar hot water cistern on the roof. The gush of water short circuited the electrical supply. Their 3 children lay frightened on the floor in the next room. The eldest daughter Or (9 years old at the time) was able to keep Shir (6 years) and Aviv(3 years) quiet and calm. What presence of mind. To this very day this very beautiful young woman is very shy and introverted. By the grace of HaShem they all survived. Next, these balaclava masked gunmen went across the street to the Hakmon residence. Yitzchak was hiding in his Succah. The gunmen sprayed the Succah with a volley of machine gun rounds. Yitzchak was not even hit. The bullets hit all around him. They even threw a grenade into the Succah which failed to explode. One of the gunmen ran across the street and climbed a tower overlooking the central playground area to sniper at the residents. There were 20 or so children huddled in the playground. They opened fire. Baruch HaShem ....... not one child was injured ! By this time the Yisraeli army tanks had arrived. These two murderers eventually were killed. The entire area around the playground was covered with grenades that had failed to explode. Miracles upon Miracles. Young Liron and her fiance' did not make it. May HaShem vindicate their young innocent blood that cries from the ground. These incredible people decided to stay together after the expulsion . They lived in a tent city. 80 odd families. They refused to allow the Yisraeli government to divide them in various areas around Yisrael. They remained in the tents for exactly one year. During this period Eli, a journalist and Sarita, a lawyer had a vision for their community. They wanted to be reinstated by the government to Palmachim, a kibbutz about 10 kilometers south of Tel Aviv on prime beach front real estate. Everyone thought that they were insane because the demand was audacious to say the least. The government tried everything to block their request. But with prayer and emunah they kept lobbying the government. They just kept hammering away without relent. Two years to the day after they left the tents on Sunday the 20th of July (17th of Tammuz) this year , Ehud Olmert finally and officially signed the legal documents to validate this request. Another Miracle of HaShem. There is a twist to all of this. Palmachim is a secular kibbutz with an aging population. 32 families with their children will increase the population by approximately 180 residents. This will guarantee the future of the kibbutz. Initially there was some resistance because the former residents of Eley Sinai are Torah observant. However after much consultation there has been a consensus that the communal eating hall will be totally kosher. The kindergarten will have a full time religious teacher which will attract other children from neighbouring communities. The Boys are also going to build a Synagogue which never existed before at Palmachim. It will house the same Torah scrolls that left Eley Sinai. The same Torah scrolls that led the exodus procession from Eley Sinai 3 years ago. That march was 11 kilometers. All residents left on foot dressed in sackcloth singing Shir h' malot ( Psalm 121). All going well, according to the will of HaShem they will start building in one year's time with the return in 18 to 24 month's time. Another Miracle of HaShem. I yearn to be present to witness the return of the Torah Scrolls. All that was meant for evil , HaShem has turned into goodness. In the meantime I am enjoying and cultivating or should I say that HaShem is cultivating this wonderful relationship. My desire is to join this wonderful G-d fearing community. I still have to convince my wife. But where there is a will there is a way. Dror, an architect is now labouring on my building sites. The joke is that one day I will be labouring on his building sites, or being a English translator for Eli's journal, or making kosher Sicilian pizzas in Nira's restaurant, or translating for Sarita as an aid for the olim. May Mashiach come speedily in our day. We discussed the dialogue group yesterday over Shabbat lunch. The families of Eley Sinai send their best wishes and encouragement in our endeavours. The day of unification is very close. May we merit to see the Geulah (Redemption), by the grace of HaShem. Shalom v'Ahavah Your Achi JOE. _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/83c70786/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Aug 3 12:45:21 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 10:45:21 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work In-Reply-To: <20080803131108.KEDE11626.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@ga rye580dc5aa6> References: <200808030609.m73690wp013880@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> <20080803131108.KEDE11626.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: <200808031745.m73HjH7Q017227@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> Gary, Tracy, Pat, and All, Thank you for "working" some more. Thank you for bringing up the principle of synthesis. Truly, it is the synthesis that we are working for. It is the synthesis of the products of our efforts that will form the unifying bonds between us. It has always been HaShem's prerogative to reconcile what is the irreconcilable for us humans, and to solve that which is unsolvable with reconciliation of any kind and just needs the Divine sword applied to cut our Gordian knot of conundrums. Perhaps I have not stressed the point in my previous email, (which Tracy so aptly brought up), that we may not be ready to have a great revelation about this. Perhaps there is a Divine plan that keeps the status quo as is till an appointed time. However, it would be nice to have answers to that effect as well. We truly cannot lose, no matter what Divine answer we receive. True, we may be battled by the rest of humanity, should we receive a great revelation about this question. So what? We will be and we are battled already from all sides about this Ten Tribes movement. I maintain the point that we are called to be pioneers in this movement and blaze new trails, under HaShem's Guidance in the midbar / wilderness of false and erroneous teachings of lies, errors, half-truths and miscellaneous mixtures which G-d abhors. It is the last one that is the worst, for like the snake's teachings it the Garden, it is truth mixed with lies. Let's forge ahead, Davey Crocketts, Mike Finks, Lewis's and Clarks, Yehoshua ben Nuns and Calevs, oh yes the women too, Miriams and Sacajaewas, we have "work" to do. It is time to own the responsibility of our calling. This week of mourning is ideal for it. I just listened to Rabbi Greenbaum's live class from Jerusalem, (http://www.azamra.org), where he mentioned that we need to pray for (among other things) for our spouses and marriages, relationships in general, especially at this time. This is so, because for some reason, the spirit of strife is out in force into the world. The spirit of din/ judgment proliferates and dominates with an increasing a great force during this week when historically all kinds of evils befell Israel and the world. I can testify to that from my own life, this past week (already) I felt un unbelievable external force acting on me, pushing me into unprecedented levels of irritability and unbelievable anger welling up within me. I could find no immediate relevant reason and causality for it. It was just there, seemingly independent. Then, everything I read, heard, experienced from and with everybody and anybody was a trigger for more anger. I bet that many of you have experienced similarly this past week. There is more to come this week and we need to be aware of this spirit of strife. Am sure that this spirit is working on all of us and we need to be aware of it and do whatever we can to mitigate its negative effects on this list and everywhere in our lives. It produces grave misunderstandings, escalating oppositions, unreasonable cognition, imputing motives that are not there, hearing things that are not there, and worst of all, engendering "feelings," (that indicators of relationships), which are misleading and destructive to relationships. Our main relationship is the commonality of having been called by God to awaken from the Valley of Dry Bones, where Israel has been for the last 2700 years. Let us be mindful of that, and be thankful that we are "alive at all," and that we can communicate at all with a mind set that has been characterized by separation in all its ramifications. We can pray for inspiration and strengthening of our willpower and relationship with HaShem to counter this external force upon us. I got to go and do "work" of another kind now; have a plumbing project of to continue of replacing some blocked and leaking sewer pipes underneath the house. They cannot be snaked out, they are corrored and just need replacing. Perhaps that is indicative that I have that problem in my own life and have to get the channels open to get rid of a lot of crud that is blocking me up. So if I do not answer now, that is the reason. Hang in there everyone. The time to "work" is here. Steve At 06:11 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: >Hi Steve, > >I, for one, like what you are doing. The >response has been slow, so here is ?two cents? >worth. I heard from one source that you are an >analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way >you present this current situation is to be >commended on that basis. You would be aware of >what is going on inside the individual >psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. > >I don?t know about the others, but it reminds me >somewhat of Hegel?s dialectic. One presents >thesis, then another presents antithesis. These >are poles apart ? hence people tend to get >?stuck? in their own position. But then, there >is the process of working toward synthesis. At >least I think that is the case ? and if so ? >then it may be applicable. At least you know >that you have one pupil cheering you on. > >Shine on, > >Gary > > >---------- >From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe >Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work > >Hello Friends, > >Am commenting on my own email her as well as >what I have read so far. It looks to me that the >responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been >statements of positions of where respondents are >on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde >and which I have tried to frame in a procedure >with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE >BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing >to offer some guesses as to why this is: > >1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. > >2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. > >3.) We already are convinced that we know the >facts and no more looking for answers and more >light on the subject is necessary. > >4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. > >5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. > >There may be more... the point is that I called >all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way >as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am >"poking" all on this list to do the procedure as >requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this >list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to >enlighten us in our prison houses that we have >been in for the last 2700 years. > >Gratefully, > >Steve > > >At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: > >Friends, Coworkers, > >As I read all the responses, from the first to >the last so far, there is one commonality (among >others) that I want to comment on. That is that >everyone has stated their position from their >corner to defend their position and to make a >stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate >those who have contributed their >positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for >"to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know >the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? > >Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for >pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / >death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for >salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. >I did ask, that we first ask God to help each >and everyone to deal with his / her resistance >to broaching this subject and finding out the >Truth about it. That is the first step. This is >big enough for anyone to deal with before we >voice any opinions on our positions. However, >there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. > >Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures >on this alone. This could take some time. >However if we go before G-d psychologically >"naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. >It may take more than one visit. A clue that we >are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and >anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." > >I want to point out a possibility, that neither >camp is correct and the solution is somewhere >else, inbetween the two positions, or something >entirely different. We have to allow for those >possibilities to "strip our biases and >preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to >us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" > >The second step, (only after we have dealt with >the first one adequately), is to ask God to >reveal to each something we can deal with about >the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our >resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, >WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior >position and beliefs of what the truth is about >this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not >sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. > >I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat >and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to >"work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. >those not having said anything so far and >just watching, please go to work silently too, >and let us know how you are faring in this "work." > >Shabbat Shalom, > >Steve > >"Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel." > >Ps. >The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is >good day to wertle with this, since the temple >and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct >bearing on this conundrum question. > > >_______________________________________________ > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 >- Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/cbffc255/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Aug 3 13:08:49 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:08:49 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work In-Reply-To: <978114.58155.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Very nicely, clearly and lovingly put, Tracy. Before we "know it all" and we all seem to freely admit that we have in no way arrived at that juncture in our lives, we must definitely continue the bridge building of love and trust among us as you said. May HaShem meet us with open arms as we meet others with our hearts and arms open! Thanks to the others of you also, Steve, Gary and Pat who have responded to Steve's post so openly and so warmly. Love and blessings to all, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 11:38 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Steve and all, As I've prayed for years over these issues and with added prayers this week, some things occur to me. Even if everyone on the dialog received the same answer in a vision from heaven, we would still be faced with millions of other individuals, Jewish and Christian, whom, as we shared what had happened to all of us at the same time, we would be met with strong resistance from either side of the issues that our group as a 'micro-cosm' had experienced. We would be faced with persecutions to one degree or another from either side. We still have to address Macro-cosm effectively. It might not even be HaShem's will to reveal a certain part of the truth to certain ones for numerous possible reasons. The dissolving of social structures could be too devastating for some to endure. Those things should be left to HaShem - the if, when, and where's are His choosing. We should be willing to receive the truth, but His response is timed according to His own wisdom. So, if HaShem is willing to give such an experience to all of us at once, I welcome it. But, if not, then we, must build the bridges of love and trust amongst us. One 'revelation', which would help our relations, is, for those from some sort of Christian background, to recognize the offensive language that, understandably, will put Jewish people on the defensive: such as, if you don't believe in Yeshua, you will not have eternal life, etc., etc. Coming from such a background, I can and do address those kinds of issues with Christians. For the record, let me say: Based on the sampling of Jews that that I have met, I believe they are: saved, born-again, holy spirit influenced, and have much to contribute to my life. I believe that such a state comes about for anyone, in a simple manner of child-like trust and love of HaShem. One does not have to understand other complexities, or even think he does, in order to experience the Living G-d. HaShem has made it simple for us: On a computer screen, its a simple task to take hold of the mouse, point and click, and enter a brand new world. We don't have to understand the complexities of what it took to create such a simple operation to experience its benefits. I may understand, or, think I understand, the "mysteries" of G-d's working; But, that, is not what "saves me". It may even get me in trouble, if I get "puffed up" in the knowledge that I think I have. I may have come up with a theory that turns out to be absolute fiction. I must be willing to alter my theory, if evidence and reason dictate. I address all of us as family - those who have taken hold of the mouse, pointed, and clicked. The other complexities we can discuss, but, that doesn't change the plain and simple - we're family. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 11:12:22 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Steve, I, second Gary's words. I myself, learned to do this kind of soul searching praying and went through much inner healing a dozen years ago. There was inner baggage that I had buried and carried around since I was a child. I learned how to pray with others through gut-wrenching experiences. As one faces and addresses buried, unresolved, and marred experiences and perceptions, in the Presence of HaShem, depressions and confusions disappate and new levels of personal freedom flows forth. The 'chips' on our shoulders, that others see, but that we ourselves can't see, are removed. I have prayed along these lines that you suggest also. But, I consider that I must always be willing to pray again and again, and stand 'naked' before HaShem and saying, "I could still be wrong or half-wrong!!" "I could have misinterpreted!! misunderstood!! or could have been deceived!!" I could have a root of fear in me thats driving me, or a root of bitterness, or root of intellectual arrogance... Our Father in heaven, The G-d of Avraham, The G-d of Isaac, The G-d of Jacob, teach me what I don't know - correct me where I need it - no matter what the cost!!! Show me my own arrogance and pride!! Root out of me the hindrances to solving this Yeshua conundrum. If Yeshua is not who I think he is, or part of his work has been misrepresented, and if I have fallen for any type of lie concerning him, the blood of his death, and its meaning or lack therof - If he was not raised from the dead, show me!! Father, if there is an inner resistance to whatever the truth is, or a fear of the truth, of any sort, show me and lets root it out. Please!! Father, if he is as I believe, then, grant us confirmation. Grant us boldness with humility, along with authority and the power of your spirit, to proclaim what we see and hear. Blessed are You, King of the Universe!!! Tracy & Lynn Osborne are praying this ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Arvidson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11:08 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hi Steve, I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here is "two cents" worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. I don't know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel's dialectic. One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis. These are poles apart - hence people tend to get "stuck" in their own position. But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis. At least I think that is the case - and if so - then it may be applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. Shine on, Gary _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel ." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/179f30ea/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 3 19:46:29 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:46:29 EDT Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Gush Katif Forever...] Message-ID: Hey Joe, Thanks SO much for sharing what you did - these people are the true heroes of Israel, and they deserved so much better. For all of us who care for Israel - THEY merit our never ending gratitude. May HaShem strengthen them, and make their path easier... Hanoch **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/3b5e5fca/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 20:40:05 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 21:40:05 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work In-Reply-To: <208490.40712.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <208490.40712.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Great prayer Tracy. We have found out so many lies about JC or "Yeshua". I think we all really want the Truth. We all have so much to learn. Keep praying and pray for us too! Chris and Amber On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Tracy Osborne wrote: > Hello Steve, > > I, second Gary's words. I myself, learned to do this kind of soul searching > praying and went through much inner healing a dozen years ago. There was > inner baggage that I had buried and carried around since I was a child. I > learned how to pray with others through gut-wrenching experiences. As one > faces and addresses buried, unresolved, and marred experiences and > perceptions, in the Presence of HaShem, depressions and confusions disappate > and new levels of personal freedom flows forth. The 'chips' on our > shoulders, that others see, but that we ourselves can't see, are removed. > > I have prayed along these lines that you suggest also. But, I consider > that I must always be willing to pray again and again, and stand 'naked' > before HaShem and saying, "I could still be wrong or half-wrong!!" "I could > have misinterpreted!! misunderstood!! or could have been deceived!!" I could > have a root of fear in me thats driving me, or a root of bitterness, or root > of intellectual arrogance... > > *Our Father in heaven, The G-d of Avraham, The G-d of Isaac, The G-d of > Jacob, teach me what I don't know - correct me where I need it - no matter > what the cost!!! Show me my own arrogance and pride!! Root out of me the > hindrances to solving this Yeshua conundrum. If Yeshua is not who I think he > is, or part of his work has been misrepresented, and if I have fallen for > any type of lie concerning him, the blood of his death, and its meaning or > lack therof - If he was not raised from the dead, show me!! * > ** > *Father, if there is an inner resistance to whatever the truth is, or a > fear of the truth, of any sort, show me and lets root it out. Please!! * > ** > *Father, if he is as I believe, then, grant us confirmation. > Grant us boldness with humility, along with authority and the power of your > spirit, to proclaim what we see and hear. Blessed are You, King of the > Universe!!!* > > Tracy & Lynn Osborne are praying this > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gary Arvidson > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11:08 AM > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work > > Hi Steve, > > > > I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here > is "two cents" worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or > therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to > be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside > the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. > > > > I don't know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel's > dialectic. One presents *thesis*, then another presents *antithesis*. > These are poles apart ? hence people tend to get "stuck" in their own > position. But then, there is the process of working toward *synthesis*. > At least I think that is the case ? and if so ? then it may be applicable. > At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. > > > > Shine on, > > > > Gary > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Mathe > *Sent:* Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work > > > > Hello Friends, > > Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It > looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been > statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum > originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a > procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With > all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: > > 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. > > 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. > > 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for > answers and more light on the subject is necessary. > > 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. > > 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. > > There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this > conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am > "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect > everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us > in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. > > Gratefully, > > Steve > > > At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: > > Friends, Coworkers, > > As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is > one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that > everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their > position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those > who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for > "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need > this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? > > Am asking all to go to G-d and *ask Him for pointers on this subject *of > Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / > atonement for a death sentence on every human. > I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his > / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about > it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with > before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step > procedure to follow that I recommended. > > Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could > take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I > explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. > It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to > monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I > believe." > > I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the > solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something > entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our > biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need > to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" > > The second step, *(only after we have dealt with the first one > adequately),* is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with > about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving > the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position > and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, > am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) > to this. > > I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill > said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not > having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently > too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." > > Shabbat Shalom, > > Steve > > "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel ." > > Ps. > The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with > this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct > bearing on this conundrum question. > > > _______________________________________________ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 > 6:59 PM > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/a8baa9f0/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Mon Aug 4 00:11:34 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:11:34 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work/ prayers In-Reply-To: <200808031745.m73HjH7Q017227@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200808030609.m73690wp013880@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> <20080803131108.KEDE11626.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> <200808031745.m73HjH7Q017227@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <200808040511.m745BVlw026501@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> Fiends, Wanted to write a lot re the SE ( synchronous event) significance of my work today of replacing the sewer pipes, which were totally occluded with crud... have been patting off this terrible job... and now I had to do it, when the washer would not drain anymore into its drain. It overflowed Thursday. As I was working, I had to pee more and more often but only a few milliliters at a time and more with never-before pain. I just got home from having been in the emergency room for 4 hours... catheterized out 2 times... very very painful... blood in the urine... thanks for your prayers... am on pain meds now.. and it still hurts terribly to pee... and a diagnosis of a severe prostrate problem.... have to see urologist tomorrow ASAP.. thanks for your prayers... the old sewer pipes are out... but have not started putting in the new ones... I have to go now, more ways than one,,, Steve At 10:45 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: >Gary, Tracy, Pat, and All, > >Thank you for "working" some more. Thank you >for bringing up the principle of synthesis. >Truly, it is the synthesis that we are working >for. It is the synthesis of the products of our >efforts that will form the unifying bonds >between us. It has always been HaShem's >prerogative to reconcile what is the >irreconcilable for us humans, and to solve that >which is unsolvable with reconciliation of any >kind and just needs the Divine sword applied to >cut our Gordian knot of conundrums. > >Perhaps I have not stressed the point in my >previous email, (which Tracy so aptly brought >up), that we may not be ready to have a >great revelation about this. Perhaps there is >a Divine plan that keeps the status quo as is >till an appointed time. However, it would be >nice to have answers to that effect as well. We >truly cannot lose, no matter what Divine answer >we receive. True, we may be battled by the rest >of humanity, should we receive a great >revelation about this question. So what? We >will be and we are battled already from all >sides about this Ten Tribes movement. I >maintain the point that we are called to be >pioneers in this movement and blaze new trails, >under HaShem's Guidance in the midbar / >wilderness of false and erroneous teachings of >lies, errors, half-truths and miscellaneous >mixtures which G-d abhors. It is the last one >that is the worst, for like the snake's >teachings it the Garden, it is truth mixed with lies. > >Let's forge ahead, Davey Crocketts, Mike >Finks, Lewis's and Clarks, Yehoshua ben Nuns >and Calevs, oh yes the women too, Miriams and >Sacajaewas, we have "work" to do. It is time to >own the responsibility of our calling. This >week of mourning is ideal for it. I just >listened to Rabbi Greenbaum's live class from >Jerusalem, ( http://www.azamra.org), where he >mentioned that we need to pray for (among other >things) for our spouses and marriages, >relationships in general, especially at this >time. This is so, because for some reason, the >spirit of strife is out in force into the world. >The spirit of din/ judgment proliferates and >dominates with an increasing a great force >during this week when historically all kinds of >evils befell Israel and the world. I can >testify to that from my own life, this past week >(already) I felt un unbelievable external force >acting on me, pushing me into unprecedented >levels of irritability and unbelievable anger >welling up within me. I could find no immediate >relevant reason and causality for it. It was >just there, seemingly independent. >Then, everything I read, heard, experienced >from and with everybody and anybody was a >trigger for more anger. I bet that many of you >have experienced similarly this past >week. There is more to come this week and we >need to be aware of this spirit of strife. > >Am sure that this spirit is working on all of us >and we need to be aware of it and do whatever we >can to mitigate its negative effects on this >list and everywhere in our lives. It produces >grave misunderstandings, escalating oppositions, >unreasonable cognition, imputing motives that >are not there, hearing things that are not >there, and worst of all, engendering "feelings," >(that indicators of relationships), which are >misleading and destructive to >relationships. Our main relationship is the >commonality of having been called by God to >awaken from the Valley of Dry Bones, where >Israel has been for the last 2700 years. Let us >be mindful of that, and be thankful that we are >"alive at all," and that we can communicate at >all with a mind set that has been characterized >by separation in all its ramifications. > >We can pray for inspiration and strengthening of >our willpower and relationship with HaShem to >counter this external force upon us. > >I got to go and do "work" of another kind now; >have a plumbing project of to continue of >replacing some blocked and leaking sewer pipes >underneath the house. They cannot be snaked out, >they are corrored and just need replacing. >Perhaps that is indicative that I have that >problem in my own life and have to get the >channels open to get rid of a lot of crud that >is blocking me up. So if I do not answer now, >that is the reason. Hang in there everyone. The time to "work" is here. > >Steve > >At 06:11 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: >>Hi Steve, >> >>I, for one, like what you are doing. The >>response has been slow, so here is ?two cents? >>worth. I heard from one source that you are an >>analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way >>you present this current situation is to be >>commended on that basis. You would be aware of >>what is going on inside the individual >>psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. >> >>I don?t know about the others, but it reminds >>me somewhat of Hegel?s dialectic. One presents >>thesis, then another presents >>antithesis. These are poles apart ? hence >>people tend to get ?stuck? in their own >>position. But then, there is the process of >>working toward synthesis. At least I think >>that is the case ? and if so ? then it may be >>applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. >> >>Shine on, >> >>Gary >> >> >>---------- >>From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ >>mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe >>Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM >>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work >> >>Hello Friends, >> >>Am commenting on my own email her as well as >>what I have read so far. It looks to me that >>the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have >>been statements of positions of where >>respondents are on this conundrum originally >>brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to >>frame in a procedure with which to try to find >>some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due >>respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: >> >>1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. >> >>2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. >> >>3.) We already are convinced that we know the >>facts and no more looking for answers and more >>light on the subject is necessary. >> >>4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. >> >>5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. >> >>There may be more... the point is that I called >>all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way >>as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am >>"poking" all on this list to do the procedure >>as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this >>list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to >>enlighten us in our prison houses that we have >>been in for the last 2700 years. >> >>Gratefully, >> >>Steve >> >> >>At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: >> >>Friends, Coworkers, >> >>As I read all the responses, from the first to >>the last so far, there is one commonality >>(among others) that I want to comment on. That >>is that everyone has stated their position from >>their corner to defend their position and to >>make a stand for it. That is fine, and I >>appreciate those who have contributed their >>positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for >>"to Work" on this conundrum. If we already >>know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? >> >>Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for >>pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / >>death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for >>salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. >>I did ask, that we first ask God to help each >>and everyone to deal with his / her resistance >>to broaching this subject and finding out the >>Truth about it. That is the first step. This is >>big enough for anyone to deal with before we >>voice any opinions on our positions. However, >>there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. >> >>Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures >>on this alone. This could take some time. >>However if we go before G-d psychologically >>"naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. >>It may take more than one visit. A clue that >>we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear >>and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." >> >>I want to point out a possibility, that neither >>camp is correct and the solution is somewhere >>else, inbetween the two positions, or something >>entirely different. We have to allow for those >>possibilities to "strip our biases and >>preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to >>us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" >> >>The second step, (only after we have dealt >>with the first one adequately), is to ask God >>to reveal to each something we can deal with >>about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth >>our resistance to receiving the answer of >>Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our >>prior position and beliefs of what the truth is >>about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am >>not sure that we have dealt even with the >>preliminary first step (above) to this. >> >>I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat >>and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to >>"work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. >>those not having said anything so far and >>just watching, please go to work silently too, >>and let us know how you are faring in this "work." >> >>Shabbat Shalom, >> >>Steve >> >>"Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel." >> >>Ps. >>The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is >>good day to wertle with this, since the temple >>and the cessation of the sacrifices has a >>direct bearing on this conundrum question. >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >>Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: >>270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM >> >>_______________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080803/49f6e931/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Aug 4 00:17:09 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 00:17:09 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work/ prayers In-Reply-To: <200808040511.m745BVlw026501@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Steve, thanks for letting us know. You will certainly have my prayers for not only your pain to subside, but healing to take place in your body. Please keep us informed. Blessings and Prayers coming your way, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 12:12 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work/ prayers Fiends, Wanted to write a lot re the SE ( synchronous event) significance of my work today of replacing the sewer pipes, which were totally occluded with crud... have been patting off this terrible job... and now I had to do it, when the washer would not drain anymore into its drain. It overflowed Thursday. As I was working, I had to pee more and more often but only a few milliliters at a time and more with never-before pain. I just got home from having been in the emergency room for 4 hours... catheterized out 2 times... very very painful... blood in the urine... thanks for your prayers... am on pain meds now.. and it still hurts terribly to pee... and a diagnosis of a severe prostrate problem.... have to see urologist tomorrow ASAP.. thanks for your prayers... the old sewer pipes are out... but have not started putting in the new ones... I have to go now, more ways than one,,, Steve At 10:45 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: Gary, Tracy, Pat, and All, Thank you for "working" some more. Thank you for bringing up the principle of synthesis. Truly, it is the synthesis that we are working for. It is the synthesis of the products of our efforts that will form the unifying bonds between us. It has always been HaShem's prerogative to reconcile what is the irreconcilable for us humans, and to solve that which is unsolvable with reconciliation of any kind and just needs the Divine sword applied to cut our Gordian knot of conundrums. Perhaps I have not stressed the point in my previous email, (which Tracy so aptly brought up), that we may not be ready to have a great revelation about this. Perhaps there is a Divine plan that keeps the status quo as is till an appointed time. However, it would be nice to have answers to that effect as well. We truly cannot lose, no matter what Divine answer we receive. True, we may be battled by the rest of humanity, should we receive a great revelation about this question. So what? We will be and we are battled already from all sides about this Ten Tribes movement. I maintain the point that we are called to be pioneers in this movement and blaze new trails, under HaShem's Guidance in the midbar / wilderness of false and erroneous teachings of lies, errors, half-truths and miscellaneous mixtures which G-d abhors. It is the last one that is the worst, for like the snake's teachings it the Garden, it is truth mixed with lies. Let's forge ahead, Davey Crocketts, Mike Finks, Lewis's and Clarks, Yehoshua ben Nuns and Calevs, oh yes the women too, Miriams and Sacajaewas, we have "work" to do. It is time to own the responsibility of our calling. This week of mourning is ideal for it. I just listened to Rabbi Greenbaum's live class from Jerusalem, ( http://www.azamra.org ), where he mentioned that we need to pray for (among other things) for our spouses and marriages, relationships in general, especially at this time. This is so, because for some reason, the spirit of strife is out in force into the world. The spirit of din/ judgment proliferates and dominates with an increasing a great force during this week when historically all kinds of evils befell Israel and the world. I can testify to that from my own life, this past week (already) I felt un unbelievable external force acting on me, pushing me into unprecedented levels of irritability and unbelievable anger welling up within me. I could find no immediate relevant reason and causality for it. It was just there, seemingly independent. Then, everything I read, heard, experienced from and with everybody and anybody was a trigger for more anger. I bet that many of you have experienced similarly this past week. There is more to come this week and we need to be aware of this spirit of strife. Am sure that this spirit is working on all of us and we need to be aware of it and do whatever we can to mitigate its negative effects on this list and everywhere in our lives. It produces grave misunderstandings, escalating oppositions, unreasonable cognition, imputing motives that are not there, hearing things that are not there, and worst of all, engendering "feelings," (that indicators of relationships), which are misleading and destructive to relationships. Our main relationship is the commonality of having been called by God to awaken from the Valley of Dry Bones, where Israel has been for the last 2700 years. Let us be mindful of that, and be thankful that we are "alive at all," and that we can communicate at all with a mind set that has been characterized by separation in all its ramifications. We can pray for inspiration and strengthening of our willpower and relationship with HaShem to counter this external force upon us. I got to go and do "work" of another kind now; have a plumbing project of to continue of replacing some blocked and leaking sewer pipes underneath the house. They cannot be snaked out, they are corrored and just need replacing. Perhaps that is indicative that I have that problem in my own life and have to get the channels open to get rid of a lot of crud that is blocking me up. So if I do not answer now, that is the reason. Hang in there everyone. The time to "work" is here. Steve At 06:11 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: Hi Steve, I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here is "two cents" worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. I don't know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel's dialectic. One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis. These are poles apart - hence people tend to get "stuck" in their own position. But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis. At least I think that is the case - and if so - then it may be applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. Shine on, Gary _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/ffdf25a5/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 04:33:41 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 05:33:41 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work/ prayers In-Reply-To: <200808030609.m73690wp013880@mail208c25.carrierzone.com><20080803131108.KEDE11626.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6><200808031745.m73HjH7Q017227@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> <200808040511.m745BVlw026501@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200808030609.m73690wp013880@mail208c25.carrierzone.com><20080803131108.KEDE11626.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6><200808031745.m73HjH7Q017227@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> <200808040511.m745BVlw026501@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Am praying, dear Steve. May be offline for a few days, but will continue to pray. Pat From: Steve Mathe Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:11 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work/ prayers Fiends, Wanted to write a lot re the SE ( synchronous event) significance of my work today of replacing the sewer pipes, which were totally occluded with crud... have been patting off this terrible job... and now I had to do it, when the washer would not drain anymore into its drain. It overflowed Thursday. As I was working, I had to pee more and more often but only a few milliliters at a time and more with never-before pain. I just got home from having been in the emergency room for 4 hours... catheterized out 2 times... very very painful... blood in the urine... thanks for your prayers... am on pain meds now.. and it still hurts terribly to pee... and a diagnosis of a severe prostrate problem.... have to see urologist tomorrow ASAP.. thanks for your prayers... the old sewer pipes are out... but have not started putting in the new ones... I have to go now, more ways than one,,, Steve At 10:45 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: Gary, Tracy, Pat, and All, Thank you for "working" some more. Thank you for bringing up the principle of synthesis. Truly, it is the synthesis that we are working for. It is the synthesis of the products of our efforts that will form the unifying bonds between us. It has always been HaShem's prerogative to reconcile what is the irreconcilable for us humans, and to solve that which is unsolvable with reconciliation of any kind and just needs the Divine sword applied to cut our Gordian knot of conundrums. Perhaps I have not stressed the point in my previous email, (which Tracy so aptly brought up), that we may not be ready to have a great revelation about this. Perhaps there is a Divine plan that keeps the status quo as is till an appointed time. However, it would be nice to have answers to that effect as well. We truly cannot lose, no matter what Divine answer we receive. True, we may be battled by the rest of humanity, should we receive a great revelation about this question. So what? We will be and we are battled already from all sides about this Ten Tribes movement. I maintain the point that we are called to be pioneers in this movement and blaze new trails, under HaShem's Guidance in the midbar / wilderness of false and erroneous teachings of lies, errors, half-truths and miscellaneous mixtures which G-d abhors. It is the last one that is the worst, for like the snake's teachings it the Garden, it is truth mixed with lies. Let's forge ahead, Davey Crocketts, Mike Finks, Lewis's and Clarks, Yehoshua ben Nuns and Calevs, oh yes the women too, Miriams and Sacajaewas, we have "work" to do. It is time to own the responsibility of our calling. This week of mourning is ideal for it. I just listened to Rabbi Greenbaum's live class from Jerusalem, ( http://www.azamra.org), where he mentioned that we need to pray for (among other things) for our spouses and marriages, relationships in general, especially at this time. This is so, because for some reason, the spirit of strife is out in force into the world. The spirit of din/ judgment proliferates and dominates with an increasing a great force during this week when historically all kinds of evils befell Israel and the world. I can testify to that from my own life, this past week (already) I felt un unbelievable external force acting on me, pushing me into unprecedented levels of irritability and unbelievable anger welling up within me. I could find no immediate relevant reason and causality for it. It was just there, seemingly independent. Then, everything I read, heard, experienced from and with everybody and anybody was a trigger for more anger. I bet that many of you have experienced similarly this past week. There is more to come this week and we need to be aware of this spirit of strife. Am sure that this spirit is working on all of us and we need to be aware of it and do whatever we can to mitigate its negative effects on this list and everywhere in our lives. It produces grave misunderstandings, escalating oppositions, unreasonable cognition, imputing motives that are not there, hearing things that are not there, and worst of all, engendering "feelings," (that indicators of relationships), which are misleading and destructive to relationships. Our main relationship is the commonality of having been called by God to awaken from the Valley of Dry Bones, where Israel has been for the last 2700 years. Let us be mindful of that, and be thankful that we are "alive at all," and that we can communicate at all with a mind set that has been characterized by separation in all its ramifications. We can pray for inspiration and strengthening of our willpower and relationship with HaShem to counter this external force upon us. I got to go and do "work" of another kind now; have a plumbing project of to continue of replacing some blocked and leaking sewer pipes underneath the house. They cannot be snaked out, they are corrored and just need replacing. Perhaps that is indicative that I have that problem in my own life and have to get the channels open to get rid of a lot of crud that is blocking me up. So if I do not answer now, that is the reason. Hang in there everyone. The time to "work" is here. Steve At 06:11 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: Hi Steve, I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here is "two cents" worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. I don't know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel's dialectic. One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis. These are poles apart - hence people tend to get "stuck" in their own position. But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis. At least I think that is the case - and if so - then it may be applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. Shine on, Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/72b33418/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Aug 4 04:52:09 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 19:52:09 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work/ prayers] Message-ID: <4896D149.4000204@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/9b035e02/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Mathe Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work/ prayers Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:11:34 -0700 Size: 28570 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/9b035e02/attachment.eml From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Aug 4 05:54:14 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 06:54:14 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Lekarev Report for 3 Av 5768 Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 3 Av 5768 August 4, 2008 Shalom For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and shall see My glory. Isaiah 66:18 **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/b541cd01/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Aug 4 06:04:02 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 07:04:02 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Cherokee Connection Message-ID: By _Rabbi Lazer Brody_ (http://www.breslovworld.com/SearchResultsArtical.aspx?type=0&fullType=Article&text=Rabbi+Lazer+Brody&pageid=1) The editorial page of Breslev Israel's English website Yonatan, an American-born Breslever Chassid who now lives in Israel, was driving northeast in Oklahoma headed toward Colorado. He was on a ?hitbodedut? vacation, ten days of luscious personal prayer while driving and living in a rented GMC van. The view overlooking the Cimarron River was breathtaking. He had to stop here, as if a hand was on his shoulder telling him to pull off the road. For some inexplicable reason, he felt like this was a special place to speak to Hashem. He draped himself in a tallit (prayer shawl), and got out of the car. Yonatan lost all sense of time. He felt like he had been talking to Hashem for about ten minutes, but two hours had transpired. He then experienced a strange sensation, as if there were eyes staring at his back. He turned around and saw a small group of men and boys watching him silently. ?Osyio,? said the elder, with a wide semi-toothed octogenarian?s smile. He extended his hand and said, ?Welcome. My name is Mitchell ? John Swift Bear Mitchell. I saw you from afar. I was sure that you were in solitude prayer with Adonvido, The Great Creator. You remind me of my grandfather?s description of the way our ancestors would seek to attach themselves to Adonvido?s Holy Spirit by praying alone on the prairie. I hope you don?t mind ? I called my sons and grandsons to come see?? * * * After hearing Yonatan?s amazing story, I looked for a drop of information that connects the Indians of North America to the lost tribes of Israel, exiled and dispersed by Sannherib and the Assyrians in 772 BCE, and encountered a flood of evidence indicating that the Indians, particularly the Cherokees, are certainly one of the lost tribes of Israel - some say Dan, others say Zevulun. 18th Century explorer, trader, and researcher, _James Adair_ (http://www.lib.utk.edu/refs/tnauthors/authors/adair-j.html) from London, author of History of the American Indians who spent 40 years among the Cherokees, wrote a book named _Out of the Flame_ (http://www.cherokeeswestern.com/books.htm) , listing 23 hard proofs why he believed the Cherokees were descended from Israel. Among other things, the Cherokees were fiercely monotheistic who observed the Ten Commandments to the letter. Harvard professor _Barry Fell_ (http://asis.com/~stag/americab.html) cites an ancient carving of the Ten Commandments in North America as further proof, another subscriber to the lost tribe theory. _Rabbi Marvin Tokayer_ (http://www.moshiach.com/features/tribes/ecuador.php) , former USAF Chaplain and prominent Jewish historian, also holds that the Indians of the Americas are descendants of Northern Israel's seafaring tribes, Dan and Zevulun. The additional list is long and exhaustive. Even so, I wasn't really convinced until I started learning some Cherokee language. Examine the following table (with thanks to the Cherokees of powersource.com in California for their help): English Cherokee Hebrew camel Ge'mili gamal dog Qi'li qelev egg We'tsi betsa mosquito To'si yetosh turtle Du'si tsav The Lord Adon'vido Adonoi tree atsina etz As you can see, the phonetic similarities are astounding. Personal prayer played such an important role in traditional Cherokee daily routine, that there?s even a guideline for holy prayer in solitude. Here are a few of the main points; note their amazing similarity to Judaism: 1. A man must not be under any influence of alcohol and drugs. 2. A man must wear long pants and long sleeves. 3. A woman must never be scantily dressed, and especially during solitude prayer. This past year, I've heard from almost a dozen Cherokee descendants who have converted or are in the process of converting to Orthodox Judaism. Sound strange? The prophet Isaiah teaches us that an ingathering of the exiles will herald the day of Redemption, for "You will be gathered up one by one, O Children of Israel; It shall be on that day that a great shofar [ram's horn - LB] shall sound, and those lost in the land of Assyria and foresaken in the land of Egypt [and from all the other countries of exile and dispersion - LB] will come [together - LB] and bow down to Hashem on the holy mountain of Jerusalem (Isaiah 27:12-13). Imagine, Laura Broken Bow's great-great granddaughter is now an Orthodox Jewish mother in Jerusalem. Hanna White Deer?s great grandson learns Torah in a Yeshiva for newcomers to observant Judaism. Isaiah's prophecy is in the works - Moshiach and the rebuilding of the holy temple are only a matter of time, so it?s time to get ready. High cheek bones, Jewish nose, ritual fur cap, uncut side locks, four ritual fringes on the front of his shirt: Was Forked Iron (photo from 1908) a descendant of the Lost Tribes of Israel? Many say yes. More _Editorials_ (http://www.breslovworld.com/SearchResultsArtical.aspx?type=0&fullType=Article&text=Editorials&pageid=1) (We invite you to visit Rabbi Lazer Brody?s award-winning daily web journal, ?_Lazer Beams_ (http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/) ?) ____________________________________ We'd love to hear your comments. Please email them to us at _feedback at breslovworld.com_ (mailto:feedback at breslovworld.com) Let us know if we can print them with your name. Thank you, the Editor **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/a86098ff/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Aug 4 06:05:21 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 07:05:21 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work/ prayers Message-ID: Feel better Steve!! Refuah Shlema! May all the plumbing be perfect! Hanoch **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/3e02ede2/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Aug 4 06:18:10 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 07:18:10 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Important and please circulate Message-ID: Israeli Citizens Action Network ICAN For Volunteer Public Diplomacy Dear ICAN members, Regarding the media threat posed to Israel by the "Free Gaza" boat campaign (_http://galileanword.blogspot.com/_ (http://galileanword.blogspot.com/) ) we really must try to get info into the newspapers and to our political leaders as soon as possible. One of our members, Dr. Mike Cohen of the Jewish human rights organization Shurat HaDin Israel Law Center, who initiated this action, has suggested the following: 1. Google "gaza boat" using the Sort by date with duplicates included option at the top right hand side - and start calling their own local media outlets that are covering the story. ask for the reporter by name based on the google results or call your local ap or reuters and tell them about the neutrality act violation. Several entries refer to an Australian who is at the center of this ? those of you there should be priming the media in Australia 2. Call your representative's office in Washington and urge them to put in an urgent call to the USAG's office. Tell your representative's office that the only way to prevent another Rachel Corrie incident is to prevent the clash from happening. Tell them that this is a "made-for-media" provocation that is supported by violators of USA law and that the USAG can stop the boats if he moves quickly to freeze the assets in California. 3. Get everyone in the family and their friends to do the same We all have a unique opportunity here to really help Israel by preventing a media disaster before it happens. Bombs do not announce themselves, neither do bulldozers - but here, we know what is going to happen - lets do what we can to defuse the bomb before it is placed in theatre!! Mike can be contacted at 904 501 6585 or at _mike at gogalil.com_ (mailto:mike at gogalil.com) for advice and assistance for those of you in the United States or Canada. Stuart Palmer Director, ICAN __._,_.___ **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/8a6ef82e/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Mon Aug 4 10:23:48 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 11:23:48 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Prostate Plight In-Reply-To: <200808040511.m745BVlw026501@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <20080804152345.IFZT6872.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Hi Steve, Thank you for sharing your prostate plight with us. I've been dealing with a similar problem, and have been throwing every known nutritional item at the condition. But it is readily apparent that your situation is much more serious at the moment. Along with comments by your other Dialogue friends who are praying for you, I will be praying for your quick recovery. Blessings.! !! Gary _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:12 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work/ prayers Fiends, Wanted to write a lot re the SE ( synchronous event) significance of my work today of replacing the sewer pipes, which were totally occluded with crud... have been patting off this terrible job... and now I had to do it, when the washer would not drain anymore into its drain. It overflowed Thursday. As I was working, I had to pee more and more often but only a few milliliters at a time and more with never-before pain. I just got home from having been in the emergency room for 4 hours... catheterized out 2 times... very very painful... blood in the urine... thanks for your prayers... am on pain meds now.. and it still hurts terribly to pee... and a diagnosis of a severe prostrate problem.... have to see urologist tomorrow ASAP.. thanks for your prayers... the old sewer pipes are out... but have not started putting in the new ones... I have to go now, more ways than one,,, Steve At 10:45 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: Gary, Tracy, Pat, and All, Thank you for "working" some more. Thank you for bringing up the principle of synthesis. Truly, it is the synthesis that we are working for. It is the synthesis of the products of our efforts that will form the unifying bonds between us. It has always been HaShem's prerogative to reconcile what is the irreconcilable for us humans, and to solve that which is unsolvable with reconciliation of any kind and just needs the Divine sword applied to cut our Gordian knot of conundrums. Perhaps I have not stressed the point in my previous email, (which Tracy so aptly brought up), that we may not be ready to have a great revelation about this. Perhaps there is a Divine plan that keeps the status quo as is till an appointed time. However, it would be nice to have answers to that effect as well. We truly cannot lose, no matter what Divine answer we receive. True, we may be battled by the rest of humanity, should we receive a great revelation about this question. So what? We will be and we are battled already from all sides about this Ten Tribes movement. I maintain the point that we are called to be pioneers in this movement and blaze new trails, under HaShem's Guidance in the midbar / wilderness of false and erroneous teachings of lies, errors, half-truths and miscellaneous mixtures which G-d abhors. It is the last one that is the worst, for like the snake's teachings it the Garden, it is truth mixed with lies. Let's forge ahead, Davey Crocketts, Mike Finks, Lewis's and Clarks, Yehoshua ben Nuns and Calevs, oh yes the women too, Miriams and Sacajaewas, we have "work" to do. It is time to own the responsibility of our calling. This week of mourning is ideal for it. I just listened to Rabbi Greenbaum's live class from Jerusalem, ( http://www.azamra.org ), where he mentioned that we need to pray for (among other things) for our spouses and marriages, relationships in general, especially at this time. This is so, because for some reason, the spirit of strife is out in force into the world. The spirit of din/ judgment proliferates and dominates with an increasing a great force during this week when historically all kinds of evils befell Israel and the world. I can testify to that from my own life, this past week (already) I felt un unbelievable external force acting on me, pushing me into unprecedented levels of irritability and unbelievable anger welling up within me. I could find no immediate relevant reason and causality for it. It was just there, seemingly independent. Then, everything I read, heard, experienced from and with everybody and anybody was a trigger for more anger. I bet that many of you have experienced similarly this past week. There is more to come this week and we need to be aware of this spirit of strife. Am sure that this spirit is working on all of us and we need to be aware of it and do whatever we can to mitigate its negative effects on this list and everywhere in our lives. It produces grave misunderstandings, escalating oppositions, unreasonable cognition, imputing motives that are not there, hearing things that are not there, and worst of all, engendering "feelings," (that indicators of relationships), which are misleading and destructive to relationships. Our main relationship is the commonality of having been called by God to awaken from the Valley of Dry Bones, where Israel has been for the last 2700 years. Let us be mindful of that, and be thankful that we are "alive at all," and that we can communicate at all with a mind set that has been characterized by separation in all its ramifications. We can pray for inspiration and strengthening of our willpower and relationship with HaShem to counter this external force upon us. I got to go and do "work" of another kind now; have a plumbing project of to continue of replacing some blocked and leaking sewer pipes underneath the house. They cannot be snaked out, they are corrored and just need replacing. Perhaps that is indicative that I have that problem in my own life and have to get the channels open to get rid of a lot of crud that is blocking me up. So if I do not answer now, that is the reason. Hang in there everyone. The time to "work" is here. Steve At 06:11 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: Hi Steve, I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here is "two cents" worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. I don't know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel's dialectic. One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis. These are poles apart - hence people tend to get "stuck" in their own position. But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis. At least I think that is the case - and if so - then it may be applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. Shine on, Gary _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1589 - Release Date: 8/3/2008 1:00 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/764309c1/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 4 12:14:53 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 17:14:53 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work In-Reply-To: <978114.58155.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <080420081714.10136.4897390C000BE8930000279822230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> I cry out with the Psalmist - "When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, YHVH, will I seek." Psalms 27:8 "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalms 40:8 "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalms 51.17 "Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah." Psalms 62:8 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of YHVH: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God." Psalms 84:2 "Teach me thy way, O YHVH; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name." Psalms 86"11 "Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed." Psalms 119:80 "I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end." Psalms 119:112 -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Steve and all, As I've prayed for years over these issues and with added prayers this week, some things occur to me. Even if everyone on the dialog received the same answer in a vision from heaven, we would still be faced with millions of other individuals, Jewish and Christian, whom, as we shared what had happened to all of us at the same time, we would be met with strong resistance from either side of the issues that our group as a 'micro-cosm' had experienced. We would be faced with persecutions to one degree or another from either side. We still have to address Macro-cosm effectively. It might not even be HaShem's will to reveal a certain part of the truth to certain ones for numerous possible reasons. The dissolving of social structures could be too devastating for some to endure. Those things should be left to HaShem - the if, when, and where's are His choosing. We should be willing to receive the truth, but His response is timed according to His own wisdom. So, if HaShem is willing to give such an experience to all of us at once, I welcome it. But, if not, then we, must build the bridges of love and trust amongst us. One 'revelation', which would help our relations, is, for those from some sort of Christian background, to recognize the offensive language that, understandably, will put Jewish people on the defensive: such as, if you don't believe in Yeshua, you will not have eternal life, etc., etc. Coming from such a background, I can and do address those kinds of issues with Christians. For the record, let me say: Based on the sampling of Jews that that I have met, I believe they are: saved, born-again, holy spirit influenced, and have much to contribute to my life. I believe that such a state comes about for anyone, in a simple manner of child-like trust and love of HaShem. One does not have to understand other complexities, or even think he does, in order to experience the Living G-d. HaShem has made it simple for us: On a computer screen, its a simple task to take hold of the mouse, point and click, and enter a brand new world. We don't have to understand the complexities of what it took to create such a simple operation to experience its benefits. I may understand, or, think I understand, the "mysteries" of G-d's working; But, that, is not what "saves me". It may even get me in trouble, if I get "puffed up" in the knowledge that I think I have. I may have come up with a theory that turns out to be absolute fiction. I must be willing to alter my theory, if evidence and reason dictate. I address all of us as family - those who have taken hold of the mouse, pointed, and clicked. The other complexities we can discuss, but, that doesn't change the plain and simple - we're family. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 11:12:22 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Steve, I, second Gary's words. I myself, learned to do this kind of soul searching praying and went through much inner healing a dozen years ago. There was inner baggage that I had buried and carried around since I was a child. I learned how to pray with others through gut-wrenching experiences. As one faces and addresses buried, unresolved, and marred experiences and perceptions, in the Presence of HaShem, depressions and confusions disappate and new levels of personal freedom flows forth. The 'chips' on our shoulders, that others see, but that we ourselves can't see, are removed. I have prayed along these lines that you suggest also. But, I consider that I must always be willing to pray again and again, and stand 'naked' before HaShem and saying, "I could still be wrong or half-wrong!!" "I could have misinterpreted!! misunderstood!! or could have been deceived!!" I could have a root of fear in me thats driving me, or a root of bitterness, or root of intellectual arrogance... Our Father in heaven, The G-d of Avraham, The G-d of Isaac, The G-d of Jacob, teach me what I don't know - correct me where I need it - no matter what the cost!!! Show me my own arrogance and pride!! Root out of me the hindrances to solving this Yeshua conundrum. If Yeshua is not who I think he is, or part of his work has been misrepresented, and if I have fallen for any type of lie concerning him, the blood of his death, and its meaning or lack therof - If he was not raised from the dead, show me!! Father, if there is an inner resistance to whatever the truth is, or a fear of the truth, of any sort, show me and lets root it out. Please!! Father, if he is as I believe, then, grant us confirmation. Grant us boldness with humility, along with authority and the power of your spirit, to proclaim what we see and hear. Blessed are You, King of the Universe!!! Tracy & Lynn Osborne are praying this ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Arvidson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11:08 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hi Steve, I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here is ?two cents? worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. I don?t know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel?s dialectic. One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis. These are poles apart ? hence people tend to get ?stuck? in their own position. But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis. At least I think that is the case ? and if so ? then it may be applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. Shine on, Gary From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel ." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/a3c8aad5/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Mon Aug 4 12:25:13 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 13:25:13 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work In-Reply-To: <080420081714.10136.4897390C000BE8930000279822230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <978114.58155.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <080420081714.10136.4897390C000BE8930000279822230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: Thank you for these great verses! Chris and Amber Fordham On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 1:14 PM, wrote: > I cry out with the Psalmist - > > "When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, > YHVH, will I seek." Psalms 27:8 > > "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." > Psalms 40:8 > > "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, > O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalms 51.17 > > "Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God > is a refuge for us. Selah." Psalms 62:8 > > My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of YHVH: my heart and my > flesh crieth out for the living God." Psalms 84:2 > > "Teach me thy way, O YHVH; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear > thy name." Psalms 86"11 > > "Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed." Psalms > 119:80 > > "I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the > end." Psalms 119:112 > > -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : > -------------- > > Steve and all, > > As I've prayed for years over these issues and with added prayers this > week, some things occur to me. > > Even if everyone on the dialog received the same answer in a vision from > heaven, we would still be faced with millions of other individuals, Jewish > and Christian, whom, as we shared what had happened to all of us at the same > time, we would be met with strong resistance from either side of the issues > that our group as a 'micro-cosm' had experienced. We would be faced with > persecutions to one degree or another from either side. We still have to > address Macro-cosm effectively. > > It might not even be HaShem's will to reveal a certain part of the truth to > certain ones for numerous possible reasons. The dissolving of social > structures could be too devastating for some to endure. Those things should > be left to HaShem - the if, when, and where's are His choosing. We should be > willing to receive the truth, but His response is timed according to His own > wisdom. > > So, if HaShem is willing to give such an experience to all of us at once, I > welcome it. But, if not, then we, must build the bridges of love and trust > amongst us. > > One 'revelation', which would help our relations, is, for those from some > sort of Christian background, to recognize the offensive language that, > understandably, will put Jewish people on the defensive: such as, if you > don't believe in Yeshua, you will not have eternal life, etc., etc. > > Coming from such a background, I can and do address those kinds of issues > with Christians. > > For the record, let me say: > > Based on the sampling of Jews that that I have met, I believe they are: > saved, born-again, holy spirit influenced, and have much to contribute to my > life. I believe that such a state comes about for anyone, in a simple manner > of child-like trust and love of HaShem. One does not have to understand > other complexities, or even think he does, in order to experience the Living > G-d. > > HaShem has made it simple for us: > > On a computer screen, its a simple task to take hold of the mouse, point > and click, and enter a brand new world. We don't have to understand the > complexities of what it took to create such a simple operation to experience > its benefits. > > I may understand, or, think I understand, the "mysteries" of G-d's working; > But, that, is not what "saves me". It may even get me in trouble, if I get > "puffed up" in the knowledge that I think I have. I may have come up with a > theory that turns out to be absolute fiction. I must be willing to alter my > theory, if evidence and reason dictate. > > I address all of us as family - those who have taken hold of the mouse, > pointed, and clicked. > > The other complexities we can discuss, but, that doesn't change the plain > and simple - we're family. > > Love & Prayers, > > Tracy > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tracy Osborne > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 11:12:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work > > Hello Steve, > > I, second Gary's words. I myself, learned to do this kind of soul searching > praying and went through much inner healing a dozen years ago. There was > inner baggage that I had buried and carried around since I was a child. I > learned how to pray with others through gut-wrenching experiences. As one > faces and addresses buried, unresolved, and marred experiences and > perceptions, in the Presence of HaShem, depressions and confusions disappate > and new levels of personal freedom flows forth. The 'chips' on our > shoulders, that others see, but that we ourselves can't see, are removed. > > I have prayed along these lines that you suggest also. But, I consider > that I must always be willing to pray again and again, and stand 'naked' > before HaShem and saying, "I could still be wrong or half-wrong!!" "I could > have misinterpreted!! misunderstood!! or could have been deceived!!" I could > have a root of fear in me thats driving me, or a root of bitterness, or root > of intellectual arrogance... > > *Our Father in heaven, The G-d of Avraham, The G-d of Isaac, The G-d of > Jacob, teach me what I don't know - correct me where I need it - no matter > what the cost!!! Show me my own arrogance and pride!! Root out of me the > hindrances to solving this Yeshua conundrum. If Yeshua is not who I think he > is, or part of his work has been misrepresented, and if I have fallen for > any type of lie concerning him, the blood of his death, and its meaning or > lack therof - If he was not raised from the dead, show me!! * > ** > *Father, if there is an inner resistance to whatever the truth is, or a > fear of the truth, of any sort, show me and lets root it out. Please!! * > ** > *Father, if he is as I believe, then, grant us confirmation. > Grant us boldness with humility, along with authority and the power of your > spirit, to proclaim what we see and hear. Blessed are You, King of the > Universe!!!* > > Tracy & Lynn Osborne are praying this > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gary Arvidson > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11:08 AM > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work > > Hi Steve, > > > > I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here > is "two cents" worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or > therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to > be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside > the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. > > > > I don't know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel's > dialectic. One presents *thesis*, then another presents *antithesis*. > These are poles apart ? hence people tend to get "stuck" in their own > position. But then, there is the process of working toward *synthesis*. > At least I think that is the case ? and if so ? then it may be applicable. > At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. > > > > Shine on, > > > > Gary > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Mathe > *Sent:* Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work > > > > Hello Friends, > > Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It > looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been > statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum > originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a > procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With > all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: > > 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. > > 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. > > 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for > answers and more light on the subject is necessary. > > 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. > > 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. > > There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this > conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am > "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect > everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us > in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. > > Gratefully, > > Steve > > > At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: > > Friends, Coworkers, > > As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is > one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that > everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their > position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those > who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for > "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need > this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? > > Am asking all to go to G-d and *ask Him for pointers on this subject *of > Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / > atonement for a death sentence on every human. > I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his > / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about > it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with > before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step > procedure to follow that I recommended. > > Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could > take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I > explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. > It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to > monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I > believe." > > I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the > solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something > entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our > biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need > to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" > > The second step, *(only after we have dealt with the first one > adequately),* is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with > about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving > the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position > and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, > am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) > to this. > > I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill > said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not > having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently > too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." > > Shabbat Shalom, > > Steve > > "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel ." > > Ps. > The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with > this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct > bearing on this conundrum question. > > > _______________________________________________ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 > 6:59 PM > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/1fd4e7b7/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Aug 4 12:26:14 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 12:26:14 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work In-Reply-To: <080420081714.10136.4897390C000BE8930000279822230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: Thank you, Glenn for these heartfelt prayers directly from the Tanack and from your heart, and also thank you Tracy for the beautiful heartfelt prayer you expressed below. ! This was very much of a blessing to me just now as I am working at my computer doing the necessary mundane work that my job requires.they reiterate the prayers of my heart as well! May you both and all of us cry out to HaShem and receive answers to these prayers Love & Blessings, Elisheva/ Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 12:15 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work I cry out with the Psalmist - "When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, YHVH, will I seek." Psalms 27:8 "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalms 40:8 "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalms 51.17 "Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah." Psalms 62:8 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of YHVH: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God." Psalms 84:2 "Teach me thy way, O YHVH; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name." Psalms 86"11 "Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed." Psalms 119:80 "I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end." Psalms 119:112 -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Steve and all, As I've prayed for years over these issues and with added prayers this week, some things occur to me. Even if everyone on the dialog received the same answer in a vision from heaven, we would still be faced with millions of other individuals, Jewish and Christian, whom, as we shared what had happened to all of us at the same time, we would be met with strong resistance from either side of the issues that our group as a 'micro-cosm' had experienced. We would be faced with persecutions to one degree or another from either side. We still have to address Macro-cosm effectively. It might not even be HaShem's will to reveal a certain part of the truth to certain ones for numerous possible reasons. The dissolving of social structures could be too devastating for some to endure. Those things should be left to HaShem - the if, when, and where's are His choosing. We should be willing to receive the truth, but His response is timed according to His own wisdom. So, if HaShem is willing to give such an experience to all of us at once, I welcome it. But, if not, then we, must build the bridges of love and trust amongst us. One 'revelation', which would help our relations, is, for those from some sort of Christian background, to recognize the offensive language that, understandably, will put Jewish people on the defensive: such as, if you don't believe in Yeshua, you will not have eternal life, etc., etc. Coming from such a background, I can and do address those kinds of issues with Christians. For the record, let me say: Based on the sampling of Jews that that I have met, I believe they are: saved, born-again, holy spirit influenced, and have much to contribute to my life. I believe that such a state comes about for anyone, in a simple manner of child-like trust and love of HaShem. One does not have to understand other complexities, or even think he does, in order to experience the Living G-d. HaShem has made it simple for us: On a computer screen, its a simple task to take hold of the mouse, point and click, and enter a brand new world. We don't have to understand the complexities of what it took to create such a simple operation to experience its benefits. I may understand, or, think I understand, the "mysteries" of G-d's working; But, that, is not what "saves me". It may even get me in trouble, if I get "puffed up" in the knowledge that I think I have. I may have come up with a theory that turns out to be absolute fiction. I must be willing to alter my theory, if evidence and reason dictate. I address all of us as family - those who have taken hold of the mouse, pointed, and clicked. The other complexities we can discuss, but, that doesn't change the plain and simple - we're family. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 11:12:22 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Steve, I, second Gary's words. I myself, learned to do this kind of soul searching praying and went through much inner healing a dozen years ago. There was inner baggage that I had buried and carried around since I was a child. I learned how to pray with others through gut-wrenching experiences. As one faces and addresses buried, unresolved, and marred experiences and perceptions, in the Presence of HaShem, depressions and confusions disappate and new levels of personal freedom flows forth. The 'chips' on our shoulders, that others see, but that we ourselves can't see, are removed. I have prayed along these lines that you suggest also. But, I consider that I must always be willing to pray again and again, and stand 'naked' before HaShem and saying, "I could still be wrong or half-wrong!!" "I could have misinterpreted!! misunderstood!! or could have been deceived!!" I could have a root of fear in me thats driving me, or a root of bitterness, or root of intellectual arrogance... Our Father in heaven, The G-d of Avraham, The G-d of Isaac, The G-d of Jacob, teach me what I don't know - correct me where I need it - no matter what the cost!!! Show me my own arrogance and pride!! Root out of me the hindrances to solving this Yeshua conundrum. If Yeshua is not who I think he is, or part of his work has been misrepresented, and if I have fallen for any type of lie concerning him, the blood of his death, and its meaning or lack therof - If he was not raised from the dead, show me!! Father, if there is an inner resistance to whatever the truth is, or a fear of the truth, of any sort, show me and lets root it out. Please!! Father, if he is as I believe, then, grant us confirmation. Grant us boldness with humility, along with authority and the power of your spirit, to proclaim what we see and hear. Blessed are You, King of the Universe!!! Tracy & Lynn Osborne are praying this ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Arvidson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11:08 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hi Steve, I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here is "two cents" worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. I don't know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel's dialectic. One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis. These are poles apart - hence people tend to get "stuck" in their own position. But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis. At least I think that is the case - and if so - then it may be applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. Shine on, Gary _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel ." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/c7658bb2/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 4 15:28:49 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 13:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work/ prayers In-Reply-To: <200808040511.m745BVlw026501@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <160039.32717.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Steve: You are in my prayers for relief from this pain and for complete healing. Kind regards, Helen Steve Mathe wrote: Fiends, Wanted to write a lot re the SE ( synchronous event) significance of my work today of replacing the sewer pipes, which were totally occluded with crud... have been patting off this terrible job... and now I had to do it, when the washer would not drain anymore into its drain. It overflowed Thursday. As I was working, I had to pee more and more often but only a few milliliters at a time and more with never-before pain. I just got home from having been in the emergency room for 4 hours... catheterized out 2 times... very very painful... blood in the urine... thanks for your prayers... am on pain meds now.. and it still hurts terribly to pee... and a diagnosis of a severe prostrate problem.... have to see urologist tomorrow ASAP.. thanks for your prayers... the old sewer pipes are out... but have not started putting in the new ones... I have to go now, more ways than one,,, Steve At 10:45 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: Gary, Tracy, Pat, and All, Thank you for "working" some more. Thank you for bringing up the principle of synthesis. Truly, it is the synthesis that we are working for. It is the synthesis of the products of our efforts that will form the unifying bonds between us. It has always been HaShem's prerogative to reconcile what is the irreconcilable for us humans, and to solve that which is unsolvable with reconciliation of any kind and just needs the Divine sword applied to cut our Gordian knot of conundrums. Perhaps I have not stressed the point in my previous email, (which Tracy so aptly brought up), that we may not be ready to have a great revelation about this. Perhaps there is a Divine plan that keeps the status quo as is till an appointed time. However, it would be nice to have answers to that effect as well. We truly cannot lose, no matter what Divine answer we receive. True, we may be battled by the rest of humanity, should we receive a great revelation about this question. So what? We will be and we are battled already from all sides about this Ten Tribes movement. I maintain the point that we are called to be pioneers in this movement and blaze new trails, under HaShem's Guidance in the midbar / wilderness of false and erroneous teachings of lies, errors, half-truths and miscellaneous mixtures which G-d abhors. It is the last one that is the worst, for like the snake's teachings it the Garden, it is truth mixed with lies. Let's forge ahead, Davey Crocketts, Mike Finks, Lewis's and Clarks, Yehoshua ben Nuns and Calevs, oh yes the women too, Miriams and Sacajaewas, we have "work" to do. It is time to own the responsibility of our calling. This week of mourning is ideal for it. I just listened to Rabbi Greenbaum's live class from Jerusalem, ( http://www.azamra.org), where he mentioned that we need to pray for (among other things) for our spouses and marriages, relationships in general, especially at this time. This is so, because for some reason, the spirit of strife is out in force into the world. The spirit of din/ judgment proliferates and dominates with an increasing a great force during this week when historically all kinds of evils befell Israel and the world. I can testify to that from my own life, this past week (already) I felt un unbelievable external force acting on me, pushing me into unprecedented levels of irritability and unbelievable anger welling up within me. I could find no immediate relevant reason and causality for it. It was just there, seemingly independent. Then, everything I read, heard, experienced from and with everybody and anybody was a trigger for more anger. I bet that many of you have experienced similarly this past week. There is more to come this week and we need to be aware of this spirit of strife. Am sure that this spirit is working on all of us and we need to be aware of it and do whatever we can to mitigate its negative effects on this list and everywhere in our lives. It produces grave misunderstandings, escalating oppositions, unreasonable cognition, imputing motives that are not there, hearing things that are not there, and worst of all, engendering "feelings," (that indicators of relationships), which are misleading and destructive to relationships. Our main relationship is the commonality of having been called by God to awaken from the Valley of Dry Bones, where Israel has been for the last 2700 years. Let us be mindful of that, and be thankful that we are "alive at all," and that we can communicate at all with a mind set that has been characterized by separation in all its ramifications. We can pray for inspiration and strengthening of our willpower and relationship with HaShem to counter this external force upon us. I got to go and do "work" of another kind now; have a plumbing project of to continue of replacing some blocked and leaking sewer pipes underneath the house. They cannot be snaked out, they are corrored and just need replacing. Perhaps that is indicative that I have that problem in my own life and have to get the channels open to get rid of a lot of crud that is blocking me up. So if I do not answer now, that is the reason. Hang in there everyone. The time to "work" is here. Steve At 06:11 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote: Hi Steve, I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here is ?two cents? worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. I don?t know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel?s dialectic. One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis. These are poles apart ? hence people tend to get ?stuck? in their own position. But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis. At least I think that is the case ? and if so ? then it may be applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. Shine on, Gary --------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/0451a269/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 18:30:23 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 16:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Message-ID: <905353.59201.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Betty, I truly pray and wish for us all to have more and more of the true and less and less of the false. I pray a special prayer for you and your husband, this evening. Blessings to you and yours, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 1:26:14 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Thank you, Glenn for these heartfelt prayers directly from the Tanack and from your heart, and also thank you Tracy for the beautiful heartfelt prayer you expressed below.? ! This was very much of a blessing to me just now as I am working at my computer doing the necessary mundane work that my job requires?they reiterate the prayers of my heart as well! May you both and all of us cry out to HaShem and receive answers to these prayers Love & Blessings, Elisheva/ Betty ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 12:15 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work ? I cry out with the Psalmist - ? "When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, YHVH, will I seek." Psalms 27:8 ? "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalms 40:8 ? "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalms 51.17 ? "Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah." Psalms 62:8 ? My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of YHVH: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God." Psalms 84:2 ? "Teach me thy way, O YHVH; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name." Psalms 86"11 ? "Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed." Psalms 119:80 ? "I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end." Psalms 119:112 -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Steve and all, ? As I've prayed for years over these issues and with added prayers this week, some things occur to me. ? Even if everyone on the dialog received the same answer in a vision from heaven, we would still be faced with millions of other individuals, Jewish and Christian, whom, as we shared what had happened to all of us at the same time, we would be met with strong resistance from either side of the issues that our group as a 'micro-cosm' had experienced. We would be faced with persecutions to one degree or another from either side. We still have to address Macro-cosm effectively.? ? It might not even be HaShem's will to reveal a certain part of the truth to certain ones for numerous possible reasons. The dissolving of social structures could be too devastating for some to endure. Those things should be left to HaShem - the if, when, and where's are His choosing. We should be willing to receive the truth, but His response is timed according to His own wisdom. ? So, if HaShem is willing to give such an experience to all of us at once, I welcome it. But, if not, then we, must build the bridges of love and trust amongst us. ? One 'revelation', which would help our relations, is, for those from some sort of Christian background,?to recognize the?offensive language?that, understandably, will put Jewish people?on the defensive: such as, if you don't believe in Yeshua, you will not have eternal life, etc., etc. ? Coming from such a background, I can and do address those kinds of issues with Christians. ? For the record, let me say: ? Based on the sampling of Jews?that?that I have met, I believe they?are: saved, born-again, holy spirit influenced, and have much to contribute to my life. I believe that such a state comes about for anyone, in a simple manner of child-like trust and love of HaShem. One does not have to understand other complexities, or even think he does, in order?to experience the Living G-d. ? HaShem has made it simple for us: ? On a computer screen, its a simple task to take hold of the mouse, point and click, and enter?a brand new world. We don't have to understand the complexities of what it took to create such a simple operation to experience its benefits. ? I may understand, or, think I understand, the "mysteries" of G-d's working; But, that, is not what "saves me". It may even get me in trouble, if I get "puffed up" in the knowledge that I think I have. I may have come up with a theory that turns out to be absolute fiction. I must be willing to alter my theory, if evidence and reason dictate. ? I address all of us as family - those who have taken hold of the mouse, pointed, and clicked. ? The other complexities we can discuss, but, that doesn't change the plain and simple - we're family. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 11:12:22 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Steve, ? I, second Gary 's words. I myself, learned to do this kind of soul searching praying and went through much inner healing a dozen years ago. There was inner baggage that I had buried and carried around since I was a child. I learned how?to pray with others through?gut-wrenching experiences. As one faces and addresses buried, unresolved, and marred experiences and perceptions, in the Presence of HaShem, depressions and confusions disappate and new levels of personal freedom flows forth. The 'chips' on our shoulders, that others see, but that we ourselves can't see, are removed. ? I have prayed along these lines that you suggest also. But, I consider that?I must always be willing to pray again and again, and stand 'naked' before HaShem and saying, "I could still be wrong or half-wrong!!" "I could have misinterpreted!! misunderstood!! or could have been deceived!!" I could have a root of fear in me thats driving me, or a root of bitterness, or root of intellectual arrogance... ? Our Father in heaven, The G-d of Avraham, The G-d of Isaac, The G-d of Jacob, teach me what I don't know - correct me where I need it - no matter what the cost!!!?Show me?my own arrogance and pride!! Root out of me the hindrances to solving this Yeshua conundrum. If Yeshua is not who I think he is, or part of his work has been misrepresented, and if I have fallen for any type of lie concerning him,?the blood of his death, and its meaning or lack therof?-?If he was not raised from the dead, show me!! ? Father, if there is an inner resistance to whatever the truth is, or a fear of the truth, of any sort, show me and lets root it out. Please!! ? Father, if he is as I believe, then, grant us confirmation. Grant?us?boldness with humility, along with?authority and the power?of your spirit, to proclaim what?we?see and hear.? Blessed are You, King of the Universe!!! ? Tracy & Lynn Osborne are praying this ? ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Arvidson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11:08 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hi Steve, ? I, for one, like what you are doing.? The response has been slow, so here is ?two cents? worth.? I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?).? If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis.? You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche.? Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense.? ? I don?t know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel?s dialectic.? One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis.? These are poles apart ? hence people tend to get ?stuck? in their own position.? But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis.? At least I think that is the case ? and if so ? then it may be applicable.? At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. ? Shine on, ? Gary ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work ? Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US.? With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2)? We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.)? We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below.? Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700? years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on.? That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it.? That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions.? However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum.? If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all?? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death? sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her? resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions.? However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit.? A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different.? We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know.? He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only? after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER? we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER? that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said.? Let's go to "work" on this some more gang....? everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just? watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel ." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday.? Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/eff3e304/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 18:33:58 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 16:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Message-ID: <834129.68302.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks Glenn, I guess we could meditate deeply upon these verses and have a good nights sleep!! They sum it up quite succinctly!! Love to you friend, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 1:14:53 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work I cry out with the Psalmist - ? "When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, YHVH, will I seek." Psalms 27:8 ? "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalms 40:8 ? "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalms 51.17 ? "Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah." Psalms 62:8 ? My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of YHVH: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God." Psalms 84:2 ? "Teach me thy way, O YHVH; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name." Psalms 86"11 ? "Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed." Psalms 119:80 ? "I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end." Psalms 119:112 -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Steve and all, ? As I've prayed for years over these issues and with added prayers this week, some things occur to me. ? Even if everyone on the dialog received the same answer in a vision from heaven, we would still be faced with millions of other individuals, Jewish and Christian, whom, as we shared what had happened to all of us at the same time, we would be met with strong resistance from either side of the issues that our group as a 'micro-cosm' had experienced. We would be faced with persecutions to one degree or another from either side. We still have to address Macro-cosm effectively.? ? It might not even be HaShem's will to reveal a certain part of the truth to certain ones for numerous possible reasons. The dissolving of social structures could be too devastating for some to endure. Those things should be left to HaShem - the if, when, and where's are His choosing. We should be willing to receive the truth, but His response is timed according to His own wisdom. ? So, if HaShem is willing to give such an experience to all of us at once, I welcome it. But, if not, then we, must build the bridges of love and trust amongst us. ? One 'revelation', which would help our relations, is, for those from some sort of Christian background,?to recognize the?offensive language?that, understandably, will put Jewish people?on the defensive: such as, if you don't believe in Yeshua, you will not have eternal life, etc., etc. ? Coming from such a background, I can and do address those kinds of issues with Christians. ? For the record, let me say: ? Based on the sampling of Jews?that?that I have met, I believe they?are: saved, born-again, holy spirit influenced, and have much to contribute to my life. I believe that such a state comes about for anyone, in a simple manner of child-like trust and love of HaShem. One does not have to understand other complexities, or even think he does, in order?to experience the Living G-d. ? HaShem has made it simple for us: ? On a computer screen, its a simple task to take hold of the mouse, point and click, and enter?a brand new world. We don't have to understand the complexities of what it took to create such a simple operation to experience its benefits. ? I may understand, or, think I understand, the "mysteries" of G-d's working; But, that, is not what "saves me". It may even get me in trouble, if I get "puffed up" in the knowledge that I think I have. I may have come up with a theory that turns out to be absolute fiction. I must be willing to alter my theory, if evidence and reason dictate. ? I address all of us as family - those who have taken hold of the mouse, pointed, and clicked. ? The other complexities we can discuss, but, that doesn't change the plain and simple - we're family. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 11:12:22 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Steve, ? I, second Gary's words. I myself, learned to do this kind of soul searching praying and went through much inner healing a dozen years ago. There was inner baggage that I had buried and carried around since I was a child. I learned how?to pray with others through?gut-wrenching experiences. As one faces and addresses buried, unresolved, and marred experiences and perceptions, in the Presence of HaShem, depressions and confusions disappate and new levels of personal freedom flows forth. The 'chips' on our shoulders, that others see, but that we ourselves can't see, are removed. ? I have prayed along these lines that you suggest also. But, I consider that?I must always be willing to pray again and again, and stand 'naked' before HaShem and saying, "I could still be wrong or half-wrong!!" "I could have misinterpreted!! misunderstood!! or could have been deceived!!" I could have a root of fear in me thats driving me, or a root of bitterness, or root of intellectual arrogance... ? Our Father in heaven, The G-d of Avraham, The G-d of Isaac, The G-d of Jacob, teach me what I don't know - correct me where I need it - no matter what the cost!!!?Show me?my own arrogance and pride!! Root out of me the hindrances to solving this Yeshua conundrum. If Yeshua is not who I think he is, or part of his work has been misrepresented, and if I have fallen for any type of lie concerning him,?the blood of his death, and its meaning or lack therof?-?If he was not raised from the dead, show me!! ? Father, if there is an inner resistance to whatever the truth is, or a fear of the truth, of any sort, show me and lets root it out. Please!! ? Father, if he is as I believe, then, grant us confirmation. Grant?us?boldness with humility, along with?authority and the power?of your spirit, to proclaim what?we?see and hear.? Blessed are You, King of the Universe!!! ? Tracy & Lynn Osborne are praying this ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Arvidson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11:08 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hi Steve, ? I, for one, like what you are doing.? The response has been slow, so here is ?two cents? worth.? I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?).? If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis.? You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche.? Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense.? ? I don?t know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel?s dialectic.? One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis.? These are poles apart ? hence people tend to get ?stuck? in their own position.? But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis.? At least I think that is the case ? and if so ? then it may be applicable.? At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. ? Shine on, ? Gary ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work ? Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US.? With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2)? We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.)? We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below.? Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700? years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on.? That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it.? That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions.? However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum.? If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all?? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death? sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her? resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions.? However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit.? A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different.? We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know.? He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only? after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER? we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER? that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said.? Let's go to "work" on this some more gang....? everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just? watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel ." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday.? Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/26878025/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Aug 4 18:48:32 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 18:48:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work In-Reply-To: <905353.59201.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1A5F21F2CAE24553BDBEA93B16E0E7DF@bettygivin> Thank you, Tracy. I appreciate that very muchl Sometimes, life is just tough, but as Robert Schuler used to say, " When things get tough, then the tough get going!" Having done a lot of "hanging in there" in my 65 years thus far, I know that HaShem is there.always.Bringing that realization into our lives, believing it with all our hearts and living it out with all that is within us, that is the hard part.but certainly worth it! Our G-d is so good!!! Shalom to you and yours, Tracy and thank you for your thoughtful note. It was much appreciated. Encouragement and praying for one another has no limits to the effect it can have on all of us, and I am a firm believer in both. Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 6:30 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Betty, I truly pray and wish for us all to have more and more of the true and less and less of the false. I pray a special prayer for you and your husband, this evening. Blessings to you and yours, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 1:26:14 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Thank you, Glenn for these heartfelt prayers directly from the Tanack and from your heart, and also thank you Tracy for the beautiful heartfelt prayer you expressed below. ! This was very much of a blessing to me just now as I am working at my computer doing the necessary mundane work that my job requires.they reiterate the prayers of my heart as well! May you both and all of us cry out to HaShem and receive answers to these prayers Love & Blessings, Elisheva/ Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 12:15 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work I cry out with the Psalmist - "When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, YHVH, will I seek." Psalms 27:8 "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalms 40:8 "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalms 51.17 "Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah." Psalms 62:8 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of YHVH: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God." Psalms 84:2 "Teach me thy way, O YHVH; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name." Psalms 86"11 "Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed." Psalms 119:80 "I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end." Psalms 119:112 -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Steve and all, As I've prayed for years over these issues and with added prayers this week, some things occur to me. Even if everyone on the dialog received the same answer in a vision from heaven, we would still be faced with millions of other individuals, Jewish and Christian, whom, as we shared what had happened to all of us at the same time, we would be met with strong resistance from either side of the issues that our group as a 'micro-cosm' had experienced. We would be faced with persecutions to one degree or another from either side. We still have to address Macro-cosm effectively. It might not even be HaShem's will to reveal a certain part of the truth to certain ones for numerous possible reasons. The dissolving of social structures could be too devastating for some to endure. Those things should be left to HaShem - the if, when, and where's are His choosing. We should be willing to receive the truth, but His response is timed according to His own wisdom. So, if HaShem is willing to give such an experience to all of us at once, I welcome it. But, if not, then we, must build the bridges of love and trust amongst us. One 'revelation', which would help our relations, is, for those from some sort of Christian background, to recognize the offensive language that, understandably, will put Jewish people on the defensive: such as, if you don't believe in Yeshua, you will not have eternal life, etc., etc. Coming from such a background, I can and do address those kinds of issues with Christians. For the record, let me say: Based on the sampling of Jews that that I have met, I believe they are: saved, born-again, holy spirit influenced, and have much to contribute to my life. I believe that such a state comes about for anyone, in a simple manner of child-like trust and love of HaShem. One does not have to understand other complexities, or even think he does, in order to experience the Living G-d. HaShem has made it simple for us: On a computer screen, its a simple task to take hold of the mouse, point and click, and enter a brand new world. We don't have to understand the complexities of what it took to create such a simple operation to experience its benefits. I may understand, or, think I understand, the "mysteries" of G-d's working; But, that, is not what "saves me". It may even get me in trouble, if I get "puffed up" in the knowledge that I think I have. I may have come up with a theory that turns out to be absolute fiction. I must be willing to alter my theory, if evidence and reason dictate. I address all of us as family - those who have taken hold of the mouse, pointed, and clicked. The other complexities we can discuss, but, that doesn't change the plain and simple - we're family. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 11:12:22 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Steve, I, second Gary 's words. I myself, learned to do this kind of soul searching praying and went through much inner healing a dozen years ago. There was inner baggage that I had buried and carried around since I was a child. I learned how to pray with others through gut-wrenching experiences. As one faces and addresses buried, unresolved, and marred experiences and perceptions, in the Presence of HaShem, depressions and confusions disappate and new levels of personal freedom flows forth. The 'chips' on our shoulders, that others see, but that we ourselves can't see, are removed. I have prayed along these lines that you suggest also. But, I consider that I must always be willing to pray again and again, and stand 'naked' before HaShem and saying, "I could still be wrong or half-wrong!!" "I could have misinterpreted!! misunderstood!! or could have been deceived!!" I could have a root of fear in me thats driving me, or a root of bitterness, or root of intellectual arrogance... Our Father in heaven, The G-d of Avraham, The G-d of Isaac, The G-d of Jacob, teach me what I don't know - correct me where I need it - no matter what the cost!!! Show me my own arrogance and pride!! Root out of me the hindrances to solving this Yeshua conundrum. If Yeshua is not who I think he is, or part of his work has been misrepresented, and if I have fallen for any type of lie concerning him, the blood of his death, and its meaning or lack therof - If he was not raised from the dead, show me!! Father, if there is an inner resistance to whatever the truth is, or a fear of the truth, of any sort, show me and lets root it out. Please!! Father, if he is as I believe, then, grant us confirmation. Grant us boldness with humility, along with authority and the power of your spirit, to proclaim what we see and hear. Blessed are You, King of the Universe!!! Tracy & Lynn Osborne are praying this ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Arvidson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11:08 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hi Steve, I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here is "two cents" worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. I don't know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel's dialectic. One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis. These are poles apart - hence people tend to get "stuck" in their own position. But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis. At least I think that is the case - and if so - then it may be applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. Shine on, Gary _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel ." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080804/3762760e/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 4 19:13:35 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 00:13:35 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work In-Reply-To: <834129.68302.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <080520080013.11757.48979B2E000980CC00002DED22230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Amen, my brother! Add these to thy nightly prayers Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them. The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple. I opened my mouth, and panted: for I longed for thy commandments. Look thou upon me, and be merciful unto me, as thou usest to do unto those that love thy name. Psalms 119:129-132 Glenn -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Thanks Glenn, I guess we could meditate deeply upon these verses and have a good nights sleep!! They sum it up quite succinctly!! Love to you friend, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 1:14:53 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work I cry out with the Psalmist - "When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, YHVH, will I seek." Psalms 27:8 "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalms 40:8 "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalms 51.17 "Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah." Psalms 62:8 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of YHVH: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God." Psalms 84:2 "Teach me thy way, O YHVH; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name." Psalms 86"11 "Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed." Psalms 119:80 "I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end." Psalms 119:112 -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Steve and all, As I've prayed for years over these issues and with added prayers this week, some things occur to me. Even if everyone on the dialog received the same answer in a vision from heaven, we would still be faced with millions of other individuals, Jewish and Christian, whom, as we shared what had happened to all of us at the same time, we would be met with strong resistance from either side of the issues that our group as a 'micro-cosm' had experienced. We would be faced with persecutions to one degree or another from either side. We still have to address Macro-cosm effectively. It might not even be HaShem's will to reveal a certain part of the truth to certain ones for numerous possible reasons. The dissolving of social structures could be too devastating for some to endure. Those things should be left to HaShem - the if, when, and where's are His choosing. We should be willing to receive the truth, but His response is timed according to His own wisdom. So, if HaShem is willing to give such an experience to all of us at once, I welcome it. But, if not, then we, must build the bridges of love and trust amongst us. One 'revelation', which would help our relations, is, for those from some sort of Christian background, to recognize the offensive language that, understandably, will put Jewish people on the defensive: such as, if you don't believe in Yeshua, you will not have eternal life, etc., etc. Coming from such a background, I can and do address those kinds of issues with Christians. For the record, let me say: Based on the sampling of Jews that that I have met, I believe they are: saved, born-again, holy spirit influenced, and have much to contribute to my life. I believe that such a state comes about for anyone, in a simple manner of child-like trust and love of HaShem. One does not have to understand other complexities, or even think he does, in order to experience the Living G-d. HaShem has made it simple for us: On a computer screen, its a simple task to take hold of the mouse, point and click, and enter a brand new world. We don't have to understand the complexities of what it took to create such a simple operation to experience its benefits. I may understand, or, think I understand, the "mysteries" of G-d's working; But, that, is not what "saves me". It may even get me in trouble, if I get "puffed up" in the knowledge that I think I have. I may have come up with a theory that turns out to be absolute fiction. I must be willing to alter my theory, if evidence and reason dictate. I address all of us as family - those who have taken hold of the mouse, pointed, and clicked. The other complexities we can discuss, but, that doesn't change the plain and simple - we're family. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 11:12:22 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Steve, I, second Gary's words. I myself, learned to do this kind of soul searching praying and went through much inner healing a dozen years ago. There was inner baggage that I had buried and carried around since I was a child. I learned how to pray with others through gut-wrenching experiences. As one faces and addresses buried, unresolved, and marred experiences and perceptions, in the Presence of HaShem, depressions and confusions disappate and new levels of personal freedom flows forth. The 'chips' on our shoulders, that others see, but that we ourselves can't see, are removed. I have prayed along these lines that you suggest also. But, I consider that I must always be willing to pray again and again, and stand 'naked' before HaShem and saying, "I could still be wrong or half-wrong!!" "I could have misinterpreted!! misunderstood!! or could have been deceived!!" I could have a root of fear in me thats driving me, or a root of bitterness, or root of intellectual arrogance... Our Father in heaven, The G-d of Avraham, The G-d of Isaac, The G-d of Jacob, teach me what I don't know - correct me where I need it - no matter what the cost!!! Show me my own arrogance and pride!! Root out of me the hindrances to solving this Yeshua conundrum. If Yeshua is not who I think he is, or part of his work has been misrepresented, and if I have fallen for any type of lie concerning him, the blood of his death, and its meaning or lack therof - If he was not raised from the dead, show me!! Father, if there is an inner resistance to whatever the truth is, or a fear of the truth, of any sort, show me and lets root it out. Please!! Father, if he is as I believe, then, grant us confirmation. Grant us boldness with humility, along with authority and the power of your spirit, to proclaim what we see and hear. Blessed are You, King of the Universe!!! Tracy & Lynn Osborne are praying this ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Arvidson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11:08 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hi Steve, I, for one, like what you are doing. The response has been slow, so here is ?two cents? worth. I heard from one source that you are an analyst or therapist (?). If so, then the way you present this current situation is to be commended on that basis. You would be aware of what is going on inside the individual psyche. Otherwise, it just seems to make good sense. I don?t know about the others, but it reminds me somewhat of Hegel?s dialectic. One presents thesis, then another presents antithesis. These are poles apart ? hence people tend to get ?stuck? in their own position. But then, there is the process of working toward synthesis. At least I think that is the case ? and if so ? then it may be applicable. At least you know that you have one pupil cheering you on. Shine on, Gary From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work Hello Friends, Am commenting on my own email her as well as what I have read so far. It looks to me that the responses to "A Call to Work" so far have been statements of positions of where respondents are on this conundrum originally brought up by Clyde and which I have tried to frame in a procedure with which to try to find some answers WHICH ARE BEYOND US. With all due respect, am venturing to offer some guesses as to why this is: 1.) I did not explain adequately the suggested procedure. 2) We are so filled with zeal that we are fired up to state our positions. 3.) We already are convinced that we know the facts and no more looking for answers and more light on the subject is necessary. 4.) We have a conscious fear of finding out the Truth. 5.) We have an unconscious resistance to finding out the truth. There may be more... the point is that I called all "to work on this conundrum in a certain way as explained below. Am calling, yes, I am "poking" all on this list to do the procedure as requested. Yes, I do expect everyone on this list to be like Eldad and Medad and ask G-d to enlighten us in our prison houses that we have been in for the last 2700 years. Gratefully, Steve At 10:32 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote: Friends, Coworkers, As I read all the responses, from the first to the last so far, there is one commonality (among others) that I want to comment on. That is that everyone has stated their position from their corner to defend their position and to make a stand for it. That is fine, and I appreciate those who have contributed their positions. However, it is NOT what I asked for "to Work" on this conundrum. If we already know the answers, do we need this exercise at all? Why ask G-d? Am asking all to go to G-d and ask Him for pointers on this subject of Yeshua's blood / death sacrifice necessary or not necessary for salvation / atonement for a death sentence on every human. I did ask, that we first ask God to help each and everyone to deal with his / her resistance to broaching this subject and finding out the Truth about it. That is the first step. This is big enough for anyone to deal with before we voice any opinions on our positions. However, there is a two-step procedure to follow that I recommended. Now that would be nice to hear some disclosures on this alone. This could take some time. However if we go before G-d psychologically "naked" as I explained, we just might hear from Him rather quickly. It may take more than one visit. A clue that we are going "naked" is to monitor our "fear and anxiety" of "what if, the opposite is true of what I believe." I want to point out a possibility, that neither camp is correct and the solution is somewhere else, inbetween the two positions, or something entirely different. We have to allow for those possibilities to "strip our biases and preconceived notions and allow G-d to reveal to us what we need to know. He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts......" The second step, (only after we have dealt with the first one adequately), is to ask God to reveal to each something we can deal with about the conundrum, AFTER we have dealt wioth our resistance to receiving the answer of Truth, WHATEVER that may be, regardless of our prior position and beliefs of what the truth is about this conundrum. That is a tall order, am not sure that we have dealt even with the preliminary first step (above) to this. I did tell you that this may take "blood sweat and tears," like Churchill said. Let's go to "work" on this some more gang.... everyone.. those not having said anything so far and just watching, please go to work silently too, and let us know how you are faring in this "work." Shabbat Shalom, Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel ." Ps. The fast is coming up on Sunday. Perhaps it is good day to wertle with this, since the temple and the cessation of the sacrifices has a direct bearing on this conundrum question. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080805/534b2ab9/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Tue Aug 5 06:44:50 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 06:44:50 -0500 Subject: Steve Suffering [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 In-Reply-To: <447845.89339.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <447845.89339.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48983D32.8080704@gninc.ca> Dear Steve You have seemed like an older brother to me already since a couple of years ago when I first learned to know you via e-mail. I don't take it as a coincidence either. And it was you who introduced me to this list of hearts that would love to melt together as one family. Of which you have played no small part to bring us to a one mind into real Torah truth. I have sensed that you must have born a lot of pain watching us all grow as we walk through this vale of so many trappings that the evil inclination in us would like to cause us to be destroyed through. Yet through all this, you have patiently stood your ground in emunah, always in patience lifted up, so to say, our faces to see where Hashem wants to so lovingly lead us, but it seems to take a suffering, even literally, by those who represent the Moshiach as was so pronounced in the articles presented by Joe in the beginning of July of which I can retrieve only one so far. I had to think of your physical suffering likely being the result of especially referring to my inconsistency, unwilling to walk in this way too often, this first contingent, a deep deep desire in you, so profoundly expressed in your website that you have been so diligent bringing across to us in the merging of our faith as the first contingent to bring together Ephraim and Judah, in a glorious oneness that will cause a gratitude in us all in the end, once we will witness the fruit of these labors of yours, as well as all who have contributed. I had to think of these 3 articles on suffering in a new way, when I think of an individual suffering in bodily ailments. It seems like the suffering messiah's of Isaiah 53, although given in the singular there, still refers to especially the Jewish people, and could include individual Rabbi's beside that of Yeshuah, as well as one like you Steve. All I could retrieve from a former e-mail was part one of three of what Joe shared. Thank you Steve for for your diligence to draw even me into this fold. Wishing you a speedy recovery, as it is the will of Hashem. Cornie > > > > --- On *Sat, 7/5/08, JOE INDOMENICO //* wrote: > > From: JOE INDOMENICO > Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 11:38 PM > > Shalom Hanoch, > > > Todah Rabbah for posting this VERY INTERESTING post on Mashiach > and resurrection. What was found is still to be officially upheld > by the researchers and scholars. This however is genuine proof > that the time has arrived to discuss Yeshua from historical > Hebraic roots to the chagrin of Orthodox Christians. > > Not to underscore the importance of this finding, I would like to > post some very interesting points that were posted on an Orthodox > Jewish website that I have followed for some time. It proves that > the further back you go in time and the closer you get to the time > of Yeshua , the writings of the Jewish Sages become more > messianic. Much of what we know today as Judaism is a derivative > of post 13th century Europe. Most of which was written as a knee > jerk reaction to the teachings of Christianity and to keep Jewish > people united under the /seyag - fence /of the Rabbinic teachings. > Baruch HaShem that they did so. For had the Jewish people > converted to Christianity en masse, we the gentile G-d fearers > would have no roots to return to. > > So I am presenting a 3 part expose from the Jewish blog for you > all to consider. > > > *The Suffering of Moshiach I * > > > / > In one of the most famous Talmudic passages concerning Moshiach, > Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi asks Elijah the prophet when Moshiach will > come. Elijah tells Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi to ask Moshiach > himself. Where is Moshiach? Sitting among the sickly paupers at > the gate to Rome, untying and replacing the bandages over his sores. > > This passage is followed by the suggestion that Rabbi Yehudah > HaNassi, who organized and edited the first part of the Talmud, > could be Moshiach because he suffered from illnesses and was > completely righteous. > > Isaiah describes at length "a man of pains and acquainted with > sickness." Many Jewish commentators, such as Ramban and Abarbanel, > explain this as a reference to Moshiach. > > Many passages in the book of Psalms speak of the sufferings and > illness of King David. Our Sages explain these as also a reference > to the sufferings and illness of King David's descendent, Moshiach. > > The Maharal of Prague, the great leader, philosopher, legal > authority and mystic who lived in the 1500's, discussed the nature > of and reasons for the pain Moshiach would have to endure. > > The Alshich, a sixteenth century kabbalist, explains that Moshiach > accepts his suffering willingly, with love for the Jewish people > and all mankind, that when Moshiach finally reveals himself, we > will realize that he chose to suffer. We will then understand how > much effort he invested in bearing the suffering of the generation." > > Rabbi Schneur Zalman, the founder of Chabad Chassidism, actually > details the nature and symptoms of the illness Moshiach will suffer. > > The Chofetz Chaim, in his work on awaiting Moshiach, discusses the > concept of the "birthpangs of Moshiach." In fact, this idea, > likening the time of Moshiach to the pain and turmoil of giving > birth, is found throughout the legal, philosophic and mystical > discussions of Moshiach over the centuries. Surely, if the > generation in which Moshiach comes will, unfortunately, know great > suffering and travail, then Moshiach himself will share in, > actually have the greatest portion of, the sickness and pain. > > Why? Why must Moshiach, the individual who will bring redemption > to the world, undergo illness and pain? We can understand that > there may be a period of doubt - perhaps, G-d forbid, rejection by > some, unwilling to accept what the Torah tells us or not yet > educated in the concepts of Moshiach and Redemption. This part of > the process we can accept - reluctantly - because the process of > redemption, of pushing away great darkness, begins with just a > little light. > > But the need to struggle, to teach, to, as Maimonides puts it, > heal the breaches, should not require physical illness. Why does > being sick seem to be a pre-requisite to bringing goodness and > kindness to the world? > > There are two basic reasons. The first has to do with the > relationship between a leader and his people, more specifically, > between Moshiach and the generation that will greet him. There is > an intimate connection between them, as our Sages teach, "The > generation is its leader, and the leader is the generation." > Accordingly, the suffering of Moshiach is for the sake of, and to > atone for, his generation. > > The second reason for Moshiach's illness has to do with Moshiach > himself. As we have explained before, redemption is a process: the > potential Moshiach becomes the presumed Moshiach, and then the > confirmed Moshiach. Each stage represents a transformation of the > individual. In order for Moshiach to move to the next stage, he > must, in a sense, cease being who he was. Any change in an > individual - the stages of life - creates an upheaval, an > imbalance. The sickness of Moshiach, then, is part of the > transformation, the process of becoming Moshiach in the fullest > sense, the King and Redeemer. > > In the next two weeks we will, G-d Willing, talk about each of > these explanations at more length. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > //JOE. > / > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1537 - Release Date: 06/07/2008 5:26 AM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080805/4559fc5f/attachment.html From royceandtammy at msn.com Tue Aug 5 16:32:59 2008 From: royceandtammy at msn.com (ROYCE TAMMY WARREN) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:32:59 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Unsubscribe Message-ID: I'm sorry; there are just too many e-mails. Please unsubscribe me. I will read on your site as I go. Thank you, Tammy L Warren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080805/6b6e27bf/attachment.html From royceandtammy at msn.com Tue Aug 5 16:36:05 2008 From: royceandtammy at msn.com (ROYCE TAMMY WARREN) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:36:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Lekarev Report for 3 Av 5768 References: Message-ID: How can I just receive this Lekarev Report only? Tammy L. Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 4:54 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Lekarev Report for 3 Av 5768 The Lekarev Report 3 Av 5768 August 4, 2008 Shalom For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and shall see My glory. Isaiah 66:18 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080805/640f4090/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Aug 5 17:31:42 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:31:42 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Lekarev Report for 3 Av 5768 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAC5622B9A88A0-1234-B56@webmail-de20.sysops.aol.com> Hi Tammy - ????? You can contact Leah Rafaeli, her info is pasted below:?? ?????????????????????????????????? Hanoch This email was sent to youngbarzel at aol.com by leahrafaeli at yahoo.com. Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? | Privacy Policy. -----Original Message----- From: ROYCE TAMMY WARREN To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Lekarev Report for 3 Av 5768 How can I just receive this Lekarev Report only? ? Tammy L. Warren ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 4:54 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Lekarev Report for 3 Av 5768 The Lekarev Report 3 Av 5768 August 4, 2008 Shalom For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and shall see My glory. Isaiah 66:18 Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080805/54c190c5/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Aug 6 03:12:42 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:12:42 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Unsubscribe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200808060812.m768CWjY030713@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> OK, Tammy, Please note that in my welcome letter I wrote that I do not send out many notices. Lately I have not sent you any other than the replies to your queries. Perhaps you are getting too many emails from others. I will notify you when the new discussion group is up. Perhaps you might be interested in that. You may want to print out the articles, since they have a lot of references, and read them when you have time. Sincerely and gratefully, Steve Mathe At 02:32 PM 8/5/2008, you wrote: >I'm sorry; there are just too many e-mails. Please unsubscribe >me. I will read on your site as I go. > >Thank you, > >Tammy L Warren > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080806/6f802ccf/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Aug 6 06:20:05 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 07:20:05 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Brilliant 8 minute satire on boycott of Israel Message-ID: Even if you've seen this before and can think of many more examples of things you cannot do without that were invented in Israel, no doubt it's worth another look and a wide distribution---- _http://www.frumchat.com/vidfeeder_view.php?id=wU221GA5-u8_ (http://www.frumchat.com/vidfeeder_view.php?id=wU221GA5-u8) Hanoch **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080806/af6f9b7f/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Aug 6 06:26:37 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 07:26:37 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Do we all need to share ONE view? Message-ID: There are those who repeatedly try to get us to all agree on ONE view....this is a great response. Hanoch _Rav Kook on the Torah Portion_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/) _Psalm 122_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/SHALOM59.htm) The Peace of Torah Scholars ____________________________________ _Gold from the Land of Israel_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/book-gold.htm) 368 pages, hardcover, online price: $20.50 ____________________________________ Psalm 122: The Peace of Torah Scholars The concluding passage of tractate Berachot teaches a remarkable insight into the nature of peace: "Rabbi Elazar said in the name of Rabbi Haninah: Torah scholars increase peace in the world. As it says, "All of Your children are students of God; great is the peace of Your children" [Isaiah 54:13]. Read this not banayich - 'Your children' - but rather bonayich - 'Your builders'." [Berachot 64a] Considering the vast number of disagreements and differences of opinion among Torah scholars, Rabbi Haninah's statement seems, well, counterintuitive. Do scholars really increase peace in the world? And why did Rabbi Haninah insist that they are 'builders'? What does this tell us about scholars and peace? True Peace People mistakenly believe that peace in the world means that everyone will share common viewpoints and think the same way. So when they see scholars disagreeing about an issue, this appears to be the exact opposite of peace. True peace, however, comes precisely through the proliferation of divergent views. When all of the various angles and sides of an issue are exposed, and we are able to clarify how each one has its place - that is true peace. The Hebrew word shalom means both 'peace' and 'completeness.' We will only attain complete knowledge when we are able to accommodate all views - even those that appear contradictory - as partial perceptions of the whole truth. Like an interlocking puzzle, together they present a complete picture. When Torah scholars broaden knowledge and provide new insights, they contribute to the increase of peace. We need to recognize that "all of Your children are students of God." All views, even those that seem contradictory, in fact help reveal knowledge and truth. For this reason, Rabbi Haninah emphasized that scholars are like builders. A building is erected from all sides, using a variety of materials and skills. So too, the whole truth is constructed from diverse views, opinions, and methods of analysis. Peace and Tranquility Curiously, the Talmud brings Rabbi Haninah's observation and then quotes from Psalms: "May there be peace in your courtyard and tranquility in your palaces" [122:7]. What does this verse add? And what is the difference between peace and tranquility (shalvah)? According to Rabbi Haninah, no talent or study should be ignored. Rather, we need to discern its inner meaning and thus determine its proper place. If there appear to be inconsistencies between different methods, we must seek out their inner kernel. Once we grasp the inner truth in each concept, all conflicts will be resolved, and our wisdom will be expanded and enhanced. It is precisely this idea that the verse teaches. The verse speaks of two levels: the surrounding grounds, and the inner palace. It specifically uses the word cheil - the fenced-in area surrounding the Temple's outer courts - to describe the lower level. The Hebrew word chayil means 'strength' or 'activity.' Thus the first level refers to the realm of life and vigorous activity, which is blessed - not with monotonous sameness - but with a multitude of competing forces. All of this turmoil has value when it leads to a unified goal - "peace in your courtyard." The inner palace, on the other hand, is not the place for the clamorous discord of clashing forces. It is the place of quiet wisdom, the source of inner truth for the conflicting views in the outer courtyard. Here reigns a serene understanding - "tranquility in your palaces." [Adapted from Ein Ayah vol. II, pp.397-398] Rav Kook on the Net: _RavKookTorah.org_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/) This week's Dvar Torah: _RavKook.co.nr_ (http://www.ravkook.co.nr/) This Dvar Torah: _SHALOM59.htm _ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/SHALOM59.htm) To subscribe/unsubscribe or comments, write to: _Rav Kook List_ (mailto:RavKookList at gmail.com) --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Rav Kook List" group. To unsubscribe, send an email to: Rav-Kook-List-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Rav-Kook-List Comments and inquiries may be sent to: RavKookList at gmail.com http://ravkooktorah.org - Rav A.I. Kook on the Weekly Parasha http://ravkook.co.nr - This week's dvar Torah http://gold-israel.co.nr - Order your copy of "Gold from the Land of Israel" **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080806/47dc550a/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Aug 6 15:58:42 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 06:58:42 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work. : TISHA B'AV. Message-ID: <489A1082.6000101@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080807/1430c109/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 7 04:15:39 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 02:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A call to MORE Work. : TISHA B'AV. In-Reply-To: <489A1082.6000101@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <178627.37901.qm@web82502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Joe: Thank you so much for this post. It is a wonderful and sobering meditation in preparation for Tisha B'Av. Shalom and kind regards, Helen JOE INDOMENICO wrote: Shalom Chaverim, as we prepare our thoughts for this coming Sunday's Tisha B'Av (9th of Av), I would like like to post this article. This day has gone down in the annuls of Jewish history as the saddest of days. It is commemorated by a 25 hour fast from sunset of the previous evening. It is the anniversary of the Divine decree that the children of Yisrael remain in the desert for 40 years until that generation died out, after they cried over the 10 spies false report of the land. It is the anniversary of the destruction by the Babylonians under Nevuchadnezar of the first temple, and the destruction by the Romans under Titus of the second temple in 70 CE. On this day the Romans captured Beitar, the last Jewish fortress to hold out during the Bar Kochba revolt in 135 CE, with terrible loss of life. Yerushalayim was ploughed up and turned into a non- Jewish city - "Aelia Capitolina" (Capitol Hill ) In 1492, Tisha B'Av was the last day by which the all Jews who would not be baptized had to leave Spain. Over 300,000 chose to leave, suffering terrible privations until they found stable new places of abode. Many never made it - victims of pirates, unscrupulous ship captains, robbers and starvation. Of those who succumbed and converted in order to remain in Spain, most secretly retained their Jewish identity for generations. They were known as Marranos ( Spanish for pigs). Many were caught by the inquisition's watchful eye, and burnt at the stake. World War 1 began on Tisha B'Av. It uprooted large Jewish populations and threw most Jewish communities into chaos. It brought in its wake the Russian Revolution which systematically crushed Judaism. Remember the Cossack massacres of Jews throughout Ukraine between 1918 and 1921 and the conditions which gave rise to Nazism and the Holocaust. The "White Paper" was signed by the British on Tisha B'Av 1938, which virtually trapped European Jewry and condemned them to the Nazi ovens. REMINDER OF HASHEM'S JUDGEMENT. Prophet Jeremiah, zs'kl, was one of the four major Jewish prophets and he prophesied for thirty years. He lived in Jerusalem during the tragic period of the city's destruction by the Babylonians, which occurred over several stages. He prophesied an ineluctable, unavertible disaster. In the book of Jeremiah, chapter seven, we read Prophet Jeremiah rebuking the Jews who pretended to know HaShem but denied Him by their actions: "This is the word that came to Jeremiah from HaShem" "Stand at the gate of HaShem's house and there proclaim this message: "'Hear the word of HaShem. This is what HaShem the Almighty, God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave to your forefathers for ever and ever. But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless. 'Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, and follow other gods you have not known, and then come and stand before Me in this house, which bears My Name, and say, "We are safe" safe to do all these detestable things?'" Prophet Jeremiah warned the people of Jerusalem that they would be punished harshly for their sins. He pleaded with the people to turn away from sin and to return to God, but to little avail. Most people of Judah did not heed the warning! Not even the Kohanim believed the words of Prophet Jeremiah. In fact, when the Kohanim heard what he said, they arrested him, whipped him, and put his feet in chains for the day. The Kohanim could not believe that HaShem would allow their enemies, the Babylonians, to enter Jerusalem and destroy the city and the temple that King Solomon, zs'kl, had built. They were angry with Prophet Jeremiah because he predicted the destruction of Jerusalem. Something important to consider is that although most Jews refused to listen to the prophet Jeremiah, this does not mean that they were not listening to anyone! They were listening to men who called themselves prophets--but they were false prophets! The Scriptures tell us about many men who made themselves out to be prophets of God, but in reality they were hypocrites and deceivers, because their messages did not come from God. Consequently, while Prophet Jeremiah was proclaiming God's judgment which was to befall Jerusalem, the false prophets were speaking to the people of Judah, saying, "No, no! The disaster 'Jeremiah' is predicting will not happen! Babylon cannot destroy Jerusalem! No one can destroy the temple of God! You will not see disaster! You will only have peace!!" Prophet Jeremiah warned the Jews to beware of the words of those who preached falsehood. However, most of the people of Judah did not heed the warning of HaShem's prophet, Jeremiah. Instead they believed the words of the false prophets. In the end, after it was too late, the king, the Kohanim, the people, and the false prophets found out who had proclaimed the true word of HaShem! They found out because everything that Prophet Jeremiah had announced concerning the destruction of Jerusalem came to pass. Hashem's Word always comes true. Always! Prophet Jeremiah also prophesized that the Jews would be scattered from their homeland and persecuted. He also said HaShem would protect the Jews from total destruction and that they would one day return to their homeland and that the "second" Israel would be more impressive than the first. Today, we can see with our own eyes that the Jews have indeed survived worldwide dispersion and that they have re-established Israel (in 1948), after 19 centuries of exile and persecutions throughout the world. For those who believe, no further proof is needed. If, c'v, you have even an ounce of doubt of the authenticity of the above prophecies, a team of archaeologists in Israel has unearthed the royal seal of an Old Testament prince who is said to have tossed the prophet Jeremiah down a well. The stamped engraving, known as a "bulla," was discovered about 600 feet south of the Temple Mount. The letters on the seal are in ancient Hebrew. The prophet's writings tell of the actions that Gedaliah, zs'kl, and his fellow princes took against him: "Then took they Jeremiah, and cast him into the dungeon of Malchiah the son of Hammelech, that was in the court of the prison: and they let down Jeremiah with cords. And in the dungeon there was no water, but mire: so Jeremiah sunk in the mire." (Jeremiah 38:6) The prophet was rescued after an Ethiopian eunuch pleaded with the king on Jeremiah's behalf, saying, "he is to die of hunger in the place where he is: for there is no more bread in the city." (38:9) The king then ordered 30 men to hoist up the prophet before the city fell to the Babylonians. Consider this promise from HaShem, penned by the prophet Jeremiah: HaShem says, "You will seek Me and find Me when you seek Me with all your heart." (Jer. 29:13) In the Day of Judgment, all will finally know what is true and what is false. However, HaShem wants you to discern what is true and what is false NOW--because on Judgment Day it will do you no good to know the truth which you disdained during your lifetime on earth! On the Day of Judgment it will be too late to repent! I, for one understand the Jewish concept that the nation of Yisrael was a corporate expression. Individualism is not a part of mainstream thinking. It certainly was not part of the Torah. Please note that the "10 spies" incident spelled out the harsh decree even for Yehoshua ben Nun and Calev. It was a case of "all for one and one for all" The concept of personal salvation is foreign to the Jew. His concept was, is, and will always be National Salvation. " Then all Yisrael will be saved." With this in mind and in answer to Steve's petition, I would like to stand before HaShem totally naked and exposed on behalf of all the sins that were perpetrated by Christianity both Catholic and Protestant. Sorry ...... no where to hide. I cannot dismiss the past just because the past is still with me. HaShem will bring to fruition the righteous justice that we all need but may not want. I cannot stand on moral high ground when I am still in the valley . My quest for truth will not change the events of the past. My repentance will not change the events of the past, even though I cry the tears of despair. For much of the history of Christianity has been tainted with the bloodshed of innocent Jewish souls together with other civilizations. Habakkuk Chapter 2 א עַל-מִשְׁמַרְתִּי אֶעֱמֹדָה, וְאֶתְיַצְּבָה עַל-מָצוֹר; וַאֲצַפֶּה, לִרְאוֹת מַה-יְדַבֶּר-בִּי, וּמָה אָשִׁיב, עַל-תּוֹכַחְתִּי. 1 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will look out to see what He will speak by me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved. ב וַיַּעֲנֵנִי יְהוָה, וַיֹּאמֶר, כְּתֹב חָזוֹן, וּבָאֵר עַל-הַלֻּחוֹת--לְמַעַן יָרוּץ, קוֹרֵא בוֹ. 2 And the LORD answered me, and said: 'Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that a man may read it swiftly. ג כִּי עוֹד חָזוֹן לַמּוֹעֵד, וְיָפֵחַ לַקֵּץ וְלֹא יְכַזֵּב; אִם-יִתְמַהְמָהּ, חַכֵּה-לוֹ--כִּי-בֹא יָבֹא, לֹא יְאַחֵר. 3 For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it declareth of the end, and doth not lie; though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay.' ד הִנֵּה עֻפְּלָה, לֹא-יָשְׁרָה נַפְשׁוֹ בּוֹ; וְצַדִּיק, בֶּאֱמוּנָתוֹ יִחְיֶה. {ס} 4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith. {S} ה וְאַף כִּי-הַיַּיִן בֹּגֵד, גֶּבֶר יָהִיר וְלֹא יִנְוֶה: אֲשֶׁר הִרְחִיב כִּשְׁאוֹל נַפְשׁוֹ, וְהוּא כַמָּוֶת וְלֹא יִשְׂבָּע, וַיֶּאֱסֹף אֵלָיו כָּל-הַגּוֹיִם, וַיִּקְבֹּץ אֵלָיו כָּל-הָעַמִּים. 5 Yea, moreover, wine is a treacherous dealer; the haughty man abideth not; he who enlargeth his desire as the nether-world, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all peoples. ו הֲלוֹא-אֵלֶּה כֻלָּם, עָלָיו מָשָׁל יִשָּׂאוּ, וּמְלִיצָה, חִידוֹת לוֹ; וְיֹאמַר, הוֹי הַמַּרְבֶּה לֹּא-לוֹ--עַד-מָתַי, וּמַכְבִּיד עָלָיו עַבְטִיט. 6 Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting riddle against him, and say: 'Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and that ladeth himself with many pledges!' ז הֲלוֹא פֶתַע, יָקוּמוּ נֹשְׁכֶיךָ, וְיִקְצוּ, מְזַעְזְעֶיךָ; וְהָיִיתָ לִמְשִׁסּוֹת, לָמוֹ. 7 Shall they not rise up suddenly that shall exact interest of thee, and awake that shall violently shake thee, and thou shalt be for booties unto them? ח כִּי-אַתָּה שַׁלּוֹתָ גּוֹיִם רַבִּים, יְשָׁלּוּךָ כָּל-יֶתֶר עַמִּים; מִדְּמֵי אָדָם וַחֲמַס-אֶרֶץ, קִרְיָה וְכָל-יֹשְׁבֵי בָהּ. {פ} 8 Because thou hast spoiled many nations, all the remnant of the peoples shall spoil thee; because of men's blood, and for the violence done to the land, to the city and to all that dwell therein. {P} ט הוֹי, בֹּצֵעַ בֶּצַע רָע--לְבֵיתוֹ: לָשׂוּם בַּמָּרוֹם קִנּוֹ, לְהִנָּצֵל מִכַּף-רָע. 9 Woe to him that gaineth evil gains for his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil! י יָעַצְתָּ בֹּשֶׁת, לְבֵיתֶךָ; קְצוֹת-עַמִּים רַבִּים, וְחוֹטֵא נַפְשֶׁךָ. 10 Thou hast devised shame to thy house, by cutting off many peoples, and hast forfeited thy life. יא כִּי-אֶבֶן, מִקִּיר תִּזְעָק; וְכָפִיס, מֵעֵץ יַעֲנֶנָּה. {פ} 11 For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it. {P} יב הוֹי בֹּנֶה עִיר, בְּדָמִים; וְכוֹנֵן קִרְיָה, בְּעַוְלָה. 12 Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and establisheth a city by iniquity! יג הֲלוֹא הִנֵּה, מֵאֵת יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת; וְיִיגְעוּ עַמִּים בְּדֵי-אֵשׁ, וּלְאֻמִּים בְּדֵי-רִיק יִעָפוּ. 13 Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the peoples labour for the fire, and the nations weary themselves for vanity? יד כִּי תִּמָּלֵא הָאָרֶץ, לָדַעַת אֶת-כְּבוֹד יְהוָה, כַּמַּיִם, יְכַסּוּ עַל-יָם. {פ} 14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. {P} טו הוֹי מַשְׁקֵה רֵעֵהוּ, מְסַפֵּחַ חֲמָתְךָ וְאַף שַׁכֵּר--לְמַעַן הַבִּיט, עַל-מְעוֹרֵיהֶם. 15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy venom thereto, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! טז שָׂבַעְתָּ קָלוֹן מִכָּבוֹד, שְׁתֵה גַם-אַתָּה וְהֵעָרֵל; תִּסּוֹב עָלֶיךָ, כּוֹס יְמִין יְהוָה, וְקִיקָלוֹן, עַל-כְּבוֹדֶךָ. 16 Thou art filled with shame instead of glory, drink thou also, and be uncovered; the cup of the LORD'S right hand shall be turned unto thee, and filthiness shall be upon thy glory. יז כִּי חֲמַס לְבָנוֹן יְכַסֶּךָּ, וְשֹׁד בְּהֵמוֹת יְחִיתַן, מִדְּמֵי אָדָם וַחֲמַס-אֶרֶץ, קִרְיָה וְכָל-יֹשְׁבֵי בָהּ. 17 For the violence done to Lebanon shall cover thee, and the destruction of the beasts, which made them afraid; because of men's blood, and for the violence done to the land, to the city and to all that dwell therein. יח מָה-הוֹעִיל פֶּסֶל, כִּי פְסָלוֹ יֹצְרוֹ--מַסֵּכָה, וּמוֹרֶה שָּׁקֶר: כִּי בָטַח יֹצֵר יִצְרוֹ, עָלָיו, לַעֲשׂוֹת, אֱלִילִים אִלְּמִים. {ס} 18 What profiteth the graven image, that the maker thereof hath graven it, even the molten image, and the teacher of lies; that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? {S} יט הוֹי אֹמֵר לָעֵץ הָקִיצָה, עוּרִי לְאֶבֶן דּוּמָם; הוּא יוֹרֶה--הִנֵּה-הוּא תָּפוּשׂ זָהָב וָכֶסֶף, וְכָל-רוּחַ אֵין בְּקִרְבּוֹ. 19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood: 'Awake', to the dumb stone: 'Arise!' Can this teach? Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. כ וַיהוָה, בְּהֵיכַל קָדְשׁוֹ: הַס מִפָּנָיו, כָּל-הָאָרֶץ. {ס} 20 But the LORD is in His holy temple; let all the earth keep silence before Him. {S}ABBA, I repent of the sins of my ancestors. And admit. ABBA, I repent of the sins of the Crusaders. And admit. ABBA, I repent of the sins of the Inquisitors. And admit. ABBA, I repent of the sins of the Pogroms. And admit. ABBA, I repent of the sins of the Holocaust. And admit. ABBA, I repent of the sins of the annihilation of complete indigenous peoples. And admit. ABBA, I repent of the rejection of Your Holy TORAH by Christianity. And admit. ABBA, I repent of the sins of commission and omission by Christianity. And admit. ABBA, I repent of the mistreatment of Your people, Your Covenants, Your Oracles . And admit. ABBA, I repent of the sins of the nations that endeavour to divide your land, contrary to Your promises. And admit. ABBA, I repent of all that is in my heart that hinders Your spirit of truth. And admit. I cannot sit on my laurels and contemplate my journey in search of truth whilst all these historical issues are not challenged, addressed and rectified. For most of my life I sat in darkness. When I thought I was in the light, the darkness was even deeper. I sat in the pews listening to sermon after sermon expounding the notion that I was free from sin and that I WAS NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW. To this very day the majority of Christianity, (please do not blame the Catholics), I mean the bulk , main stream Christianity is still regurgitating this Theology. I may have come a long way, but I still cannot reconcile the past sins of the faith that I was born into. I have come to the conclusion that HaShem is more interested in what I do rather than what I believe. The world of Greece determines that you know a man by his philosophy, whilst the world of Zion determines that you know a man by his actions. So I ponder the actions of Christianity, past and present. I see a trail of destruction as outlined by the prophet Habakkuk. Worm of a man that I am, I see the glory and the mercy of HaShem. This is conditional on my heartfelt repentance. " If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets" "Consequently you bear witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets" "Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers " These scathing words from Rabbi Yeshua are quite clear. The sons are not exempt from the sins of the fathers as long as they continue the same course of action without repentance. This continues in the same vein as Ezekiel 33. I will end this very long post with a scripture from the Prophet Jeremiah that always tears away at my very essence. יב הָלֹךְ וְקָרָאתָ אֶת-הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה צָפוֹנָה, וְאָמַרְתָּ שׁוּבָה מְשֻׁבָה יִשְׂרָאֵל נְאֻם-יְהוָה--לוֹא-אַפִּיל פָּנַי, בָּכֶם: כִּי-חָסִיד אֲנִי נְאֻם-יְהוָה, לֹא אֶטּוֹר לְעוֹלָם. 12 Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say: return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; I will not frown upon you; for I am merciful, saith the LORD, I will not bear grudge for ever. יג אַךְ דְּעִי עֲו‍ֹנֵךְ, כִּי בַּיהוָה אֱלֹהַיִךְ פָּשָׁעַתְּ; וַתְּפַזְּרִי אֶת-דְּרָכַיִךְ לַזָּרִים, תַּחַת כָּל-עֵץ רַעֲנָן, וּבְקוֹלִי לֹא-שְׁמַעְתֶּם, נְאֻם-יְהוָה. 13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every leafy tree, and ye have not hearkened to My voice, saith the LORD. יד שׁוּבוּ בָנִים שׁוֹבָבִים נְאֻם-יְהוָה, כִּי אָנֹכִי בָּעַלְתִּי בָכֶם; וְלָקַחְתִּי אֶתְכֶם אֶחָד מֵעִיר, וּשְׁנַיִם מִמִּשְׁפָּחָה, וְהֵבֵאתִי אֶתְכֶם, צִיּוֹן. 14 Return, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am a lord unto you, and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion; טו וְנָתַתִּי לָכֶם רֹעִים, כְּלִבִּי; וְרָעוּ אֶתְכֶם, דֵּעָה וְהַשְׂכֵּיל. 15 and I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. טז וְהָיָה כִּי תִרְבּוּ וּפְרִיתֶם בָּאָרֶץ בַּיָּמִים הָהֵמָּה, נְאֻם-יְהוָה--לֹא-יֹאמְרוּ עוֹד אֲרוֹן בְּרִית-יְהוָה, וְלֹא יַעֲלֶה עַל-לֵב; וְלֹא יִזְכְּרוּ-בוֹ וְלֹא יִפְקֹדוּ, וְלֹא יֵעָשֶׂה עוֹד. 16 And it shall come to pass, when ye are multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more: The ark of the covenant of the LORD; neither shall it come to mind; neither shall they make mention of it; neither shall they miss it; neither shall it be made any more. יז בָּעֵת הַהִיא, יִקְרְאוּ לִירוּשָׁלִַם כִּסֵּא יְהוָה, וְנִקְווּ אֵלֶיהָ כָל-הַגּוֹיִם לְשֵׁם יְהוָה, לִירוּשָׁלִָם; וְלֹא-יֵלְכוּ עוֹד--אַחֲרֵי, שְׁרִרוּת לִבָּם הָרָע. {ס} 17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem; neither shall they walk any more after the stubbornness of their evil heart. {S} יח בַּיָּמִים הָהֵמָּה, יֵלְכוּ בֵית-יְהוּדָה עַל-בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל; וְיָבֹאוּ יַחְדָּו, מֵאֶרֶץ צָפוֹן, עַל-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר הִנְחַלְתִּי אֶת-אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם. 18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.' יט וְאָנֹכִי אָמַרְתִּי, אֵיךְ אֲשִׁיתֵךְ בַּבָּנִים, וְאֶתֶּן-לָךְ אֶרֶץ חֶמְדָּה, נַחֲלַת צְבִי צִבְאוֹת גּוֹיִם; וָאֹמַר, אָבִי תקראו- (תִּקְרְאִי-) לִי, וּמֵאַחֲרַי, לֹא תשובו (תָשׁוּבִי). 19 But I said: 'How would I put thee among the sons, and give thee a pleasant land, the goodliest heritage of the nations!' And I said: 'Thou shalt call Me, My father; and shalt not turn away from following Me.' כ אָכֵן בָּגְדָה אִשָּׁה, מֵרֵעָהּ; כֵּן בְּגַדְתֶּם בִּי בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל, נְאֻם-יְהוָה. 20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD. כא קוֹל עַל-שְׁפָיִים נִשְׁמָע, בְּכִי תַחֲנוּנֵי בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל: כִּי הֶעֱווּ אֶת-דַּרְכָּם, שָׁכְחוּ אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיהֶם. 21 Hark! upon the high hills is heard the suppliant weeping of the children of Israel; for that they have perverted their way, they have forgotten the LORD their God. כב שׁוּבוּ בָּנִים שׁוֹבָבִים, אֶרְפָּה מְשׁוּבֹתֵיכֶם; הִנְנוּ אָתָנוּ לָךְ, כִּי אַתָּה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ. 22 Return, ye backsliding children, I will heal your backslidings.--'Here we are, we are come unto Thee; for Thou art the LORD our God. כג אָכֵן לַשֶּׁקֶר מִגְּבָעוֹת, הָמוֹן הָרִים; אָכֵן בַּיהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, תְּשׁוּעַת יִשְׂרָאֵל. 23 Truly vain have proved the hills, the uproar on the mountains; truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel. כד וְהַבֹּשֶׁת, אָכְלָה אֶת-יְגִיעַ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ--מִנְּעוּרֵינוּ: אֶת-צֹאנָם, וְאֶת-בְּקָרָם, אֶת-בְּנֵיהֶם, וְאֶת-בְּנוֹתֵיהֶם. 24 But the shameful thing hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters. כה נִשְׁכְּבָה בְּבָשְׁתֵּנוּ, וּתְכַסֵּנוּ כְּלִמָּתֵנוּ--כִּי לַיהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ חָטָאנוּ אֲנַחְנוּ וַאֲבוֹתֵינוּ, מִנְּעוּרֵינוּ וְעַד-הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה; וְלֹא שָׁמַעְנוּ, בְּקוֹל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ. {ס} 25 Let us lie down in our shame, and let our confusion cover us; for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day; and we have not hearkened to the voice of the LORD our God.' {S} I seek the path back to HaShem, together with my brothers and sisters of Yehudah with a humble and contrite heart, with a spirit of reconciliation and unity of purpose. The long and winding road that leads to the doors of Zion has begun. The quest for truth begins with one's admittance of error. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080807/bd6263e7/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 7 23:11:57 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 00:11:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: [JEWSLINKS] Online Educational Resources about Tisha B'Av In-Reply-To: <8CAC635E086E6DF-FD4-E6B@MBLK-M11.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAC635E086E6DF-FD4-E6B@MBLK-M11.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CAC72408B40D09-1030-21D1@WEBMAIL-MA06.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 6:47 pm Subject: Fwd: [JEWSLINKS] Online Educational Resources about Tisha B'Av -----Original Message----- From: Jacob Richman To: JEWSLINKS at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 7:08 pm Subject: [JEWSLINKS] Online Educational Resources about Tisha B'Av Shalom. Tisha B'Av is the saddest day on the Jewish calendar because of the incredible series of tragedies which occurred on that date throughout Jewish History. Tisha B'Av means "the ninth (day) of the Hebrew month of Av." Tisha B'Av primarily commemorates the destruction of the first and second Temples, both of which were destroyed on the ninth of Av (the first by the Babylonians in 586 B.C.E.; the second by the Romans in 70 C.E.). Although this day is primarily meant to commemorate the destruction of the Temple, it is appropriate to consider on this day the many other tragedies of the Jewish people, many of which occurred on this day, most notably the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492. You can learn more about this Jewish fast day (August 10) at: http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-hdayav.htm May we see the rebuilding of the Temple in our days and that Tisha B'Av becomes a day of celebration. Jacob __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Fashion News What's the word on fashion and style? Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. Ads on Yahoo! Learn more now. Reach customers searching for you. . __,_._,___ It's time to go back to school! Get the latest trends and gadgets that make the grade on AOL Shopping. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/f25a2949/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Aug 8 03:22:08 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:22:08 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom - Avinu Malkeinu - Our Father Our King Message-ID: <489C0230.8090000@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/cef88198/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Aug 8 03:35:08 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:35:08 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM.- Sh'ma Israel - English - Hebrew Message-ID: <489C053C.8040108@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/3cf0df7a/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Aug 8 03:39:09 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:39:09 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM - Rachem - Rachem- Rachem Message-ID: <489C062D.80409@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/537a11b4/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 8 04:27:31 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 02:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM - Rachem - Rachem- Rachem In-Reply-To: <489C062D.80409@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <154855.71095.qm@web82506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank you, Joe, for these three wonderful videos . I wish everyone Shabbat Shalom and an easy fast for Saturday - Sunday. Shalom and kind regards, Helen JOE INDOMENICO wrote: ABBA, RACHEM, RACHEM, ........... RACHEM.!!!!!!!! Shabbat Shalom JOE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PYiUOCeCUA&feature=related _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/525f9da6/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 11:36:53 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 09:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] How is Steve? Message-ID: <91784.70600.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Does?anyone?know how Steve Mathe is doing this week? Has anyone heard? Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/e16e69e5/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Aug 8 16:34:28 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:34:28 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Steve checking in In-Reply-To: <91784.70600.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <91784.70600.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200808082134.m78LYKh1030787@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> Shabbat Shalom Everyone, I know how Steve is, he is feeling much better, the first time no pain when going this morning,,, he also did not have to pee every 15-20 minutes... he is on pain medication specific to this and on anti spasm meds too...they seem to be working after a few days of kicking in.... will see urologist next week for a cystocopy look inside the bladder... The other good news is, I got the plumbing done underneath the house, a little at a time.. taking out those clogged sewer pipes was a good object lesson for me, that sometimes we need help to get rid of accumulated crud in our psyches... in our case, the collective psyche of Ephraim. We have to do this individually, one person at a time. It is all additive in the collective and contributes to a shift in consciousness. That is one of our tasks as the pioneers form the Valley of Dry Bones. I think that is the reason we have start the "painful" process of confessing our sins, and the inherited "crud" of our fathers... it is part of "owning it all." JOE Indomenico has written well about this. Another thing: one branch of the pipes had a clean-out port on it, but was never used since it was installed wrong, could not be accessed from the time the house was built. This is sometimes the reason we have to ask HaShem to help us get started to get rid of the spiritual "crud," because we cannot do it ourselves and do not know where to begin.... and "coming clean" of it all. This is quite a labor, and cannot be done overnight. It takes "cutting, digging, hauling, crawling, handling the muck and mire of the "crud" we have been "fed." Why "fed?" Because the crud in the pipes is essentially the food we have eaten. Jeremiah tells us that the spiritual tables are "full of vomit, uncleanness and abominations." This Tisha b'Av will be very special for all of us.... because we will be lamenting at a new level the departure of G-d's manifest presence from our midst and because we will be also "confessing our sins, which caused us to be cast out and be in spiritual "congregation of the dead" for 2700 years... I hope all of us will spend the time we would be eating, and when we feel the hunger of the body, to confess all the sins pertaining to Ephraim, and ask for Divine help in building the spiritual "Mishkan of Prayers" that Ephraim needs to be partakers for all Israel. may I recommend the "Confession Prayer" I composed some time ago, as well as JOE's list of things to use as springboards for our prayers. It may be helpful to print out JOE's email and the "Confession Prayer." http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Prayer/Confession%20Prayers%20IV.pdf Yes, they are long because we have a long list of Ephraim's sins in the Tanach. If anybody on this list is in Jerusalem, please be our shaliach and take these prayers and represent us at the Kotel. Am of the opinion, that we will be seeing great "changes" of all sorts in the coming 4 years, regardless of who will be president. The die have been cast for all sorts of unprecedented trying conditions to break loose upon the world. We can also pray for Divine help to prepare for these cataclysms in the economic, political, cultural and spiritual realms of our times. Thank you again to all of you for praying for me. It has been a most "painful" week in my life. Perhaps it is a prelude to Tisha b'Av, and what we all need to feel on it. Hence, I will NOT wish a "May your fast be easy" to any one. NO, may all your fasts be painful, miserable and utterly devastating.. for it is time for Ephraim to "confess his sins and the sins of his fathers." It is the beginning of coming home to Hashem, and even to begin contemplating of what we need to do to "unify the Tribes" as was the question for discussion that I "poked" all of you with at the April UIWU meeting in Charlotte this past April. We need to clean our spiritual houses" first, starting at the basement, in the collective subconscious of Israel. Shabbat Shalom dear friends and fellow travelers 'bamidbar." Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." At 09:36 AM 8/8/2008, you wrote: >Does anyone know how Steve Mathe is doing this week? Has anyone heard? > >Tracy > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/8266495c/attachment.html From smathe at dslextreme.com Fri Aug 8 16:53:06 2008 From: smathe at dslextreme.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:53:06 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-Self Imposed Wounds Message-ID: Friends, For those of you who may not be familiar with Mesora, here it is. It provides a scholarly and rational balance to what is often otherwise. You want to print them out, it is great reading for Shabbat. Shabbat Shalom, Steve >From: >Subject: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-Self Imposed Wounds >Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 23:04:05 -0400 > >IF NO IMAGES APPEAR BELOW, >PRESS HERE >AOL Users: Select "Show images & enable links" >above. Add us to your address book. > >---------- > > >Add "News at Mesora.org" to your address book, and >to your "Safe List" or "White List" > > >[] > >Mesora & the JewishTimes ? Aug. 8, 2008 > > > >[] > > > > > >---------- > > > > >[] > > > > > >---------- > > > > >[] > > > > > >---------- >With plans for our website expansion additional >funds are necessary to reach our goals. Review >our grant proposal: >proposal&body=Please send us your grant >proposal. Our foundation name and address is:>Press Here >[] > > * > Tisha B'Av: Self Imposed Wounds > * The > Month of Av: Unlucky...or Misunderstood? > * > [] > Noachide Laws > * TalkLIVE class Aug. 3rd > * > [] > >Human >Equality & King Solomon's Wisdom > * TalkLIVE class July 27th > * > Noachide > Fundamentals: Part I > * > Noachide > Fundamentals: Part II > * God has no Favorites >[] > > * WebShas: Topical Index to Talmud > * E-Daf.com: Aramaic Talmud > * English Talmud > * Guide for the Perplexed > * > Pirkey > Avos > * Blogs > * Rambam System > * Vesom Sechel > * Kankan Chadash > * Tipah Sheb'Yam > >[] > >August 2008 >Candle lighting is 18 minutes prior to sunset >Click a city to access a complete calendar > >Boston > >Chicago > >Cleveland > >Detroit > >Houston > >Jerusalem > >Johannesburg > >Los >Angeles > >London > >Miami > >Montreal > >Moscow > >New >York > >Paris > >Philadelphia > >Phoenix > >Pittsburgh > >Seattle > >Sydney > >Tokyo > >Toronto > >Washington DC > > > >[] > > > >[] > > > >[] > >Book.&body=I thought you would enjoy a free >subscription to Mesora's JewishTimes weekly >journal and their new book Retrospectives. To >subscribe and receive both free, send any email >to: subscribe at mesora.org Download their current >issue from this page: http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes> >[] >Book.&body=I thought you would enjoy a free >subscription to Mesora's JewishTimes weekly >journal and their new book Retrospectives. To >subscribe and receive both free, send any email >to: subscribe at mesora.org Download their current >issue from this page: http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes> >for Members&body=Please contact us regarding >offering the JewishTimes free to our >organization: (Insert your contact info here)> >[] > >Mail inquiries to Mesora of NY, Inc. 553 Central Ave. 19A Cedarhurst, NY 11516 >Email us at: >office at mesora.org >Suspend emails: >unsubscribe at mesora.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/b25ce54b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Aug 8 16:55:17 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:55:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-Self Imposed Wounds In-Reply-To: <20080808215303.WACN15741.aarpub12.charter.net@www2.sssecure.net> Message-ID: <1D7B4B08325E415EBA14558D10855F14@bettygivin> Thank you, Steve. How are you? Shabbat Shalom, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 4:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-Self Imposed Wounds Friends, For those of you who may not be familiar with Mesora, here it is. It provides a scholarly and rational balance to what is often otherwise. You want to print them out, it is great reading for Shabbat. Shabbat Shalom, Steve From: Subject: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-Self Imposed Wounds Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 23:04:05 -0400 IF NO IMAGES APPEAR BELOW, PRESS HERE AOL Users: Select "Show images & enable links" above. Add us to your address book. _____ Add "News at Mesora.org " to your address book, and to your "Safe List" or "White List" [] Mesora & the JewishTimes - Aug. 8, 2008 [] _____ [] _____ [] _____ With plans for our website expansion additional funds are necessary to reach our goals. Review our grant proposal: Press Here [] * Tisha B'Av: Self Imposed Wounds * The Month of Av: Unlucky...or Misunderstood? * [] Noachide Laws * TalkLIVE class Aug. 3rd * [] Human Equality & King Solomon's Wisdom * TalkLIVE class July 27th * Noachide Fundamentals: Part I * Noachide Fundamentals: Part II * God has no Favorites [] * WebShas: Topical Index to Talmud * E-Daf.com: Aramaic Talmud * English Talmud * Guide for the Perplexed * Pirkey Avos * Blogs * Rambam System * Vesom Sechel * Kankan Chadash * Tipah Sheb'Yam [] August 2008 Candle lighting is 18 minutes prior to sunset Click a city to access a complete calendar Boston Chicago Cleveland Detroit Houston Jerusalem Johannesburg Los Angeles London Miami Montreal Moscow New York Paris Philadelphia Phoenix Pittsburgh Seattle Sydney Tokyo Toronto Washington DC [] [] [] [] [] Mail inquiries to Mesora of NY, Inc. 553 Central Ave. 19A Cedarhurst, NY 11516 Email us at: office at mesora.org Suspend emails: unsubscribe at mesora.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/af9ad1f2/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Aug 8 18:54:52 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:54:52 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-Self Imposed Wounds In-Reply-To: <1D7B4B08325E415EBA14558D10855F14@bettygivin> References: <20080808215303.WACN15741.aarpub12.charter.net@www2.sssecure.net> <1D7B4B08325E415EBA14558D10855F14@bettygivin> Message-ID: <200808082354.m78NshjJ022126@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> Shabbat Shalom Everyone, Am doing a lot better, thanks be to HaShem. Thank you very much for all your many prayers everyone; am able to go without screaming now. And the house plumbing works too to boot. May all of you be inspired for what we need to do. Steve At 02:55 PM 8/8/2008, you wrote: >Thank you, Steve. How are you? > >Shabbat Shalom, >Elisheva/Betty > >---------- >From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 4:53 PM >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-Self Imposed Wounds > >Friends, > >For those of you who may not be familiar with >Mesora, here it is. It provides a scholarly and >rational balance to what is often >otherwise. You want to print them out, it is great reading for Shabbat. >Shabbat Shalom, > > Steve > > >From: >Subject: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-Self Imposed Wounds >Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 23:04:05 -0400 >IF NO IMAGES APPEAR BELOW, >PRESS HERE >AOL Users: Select "Show images & enable links" >above. Add us to your address book. > >---------- > > >Add "News at Mesora.org " to your address book, and >to your "Safe List" or "White List" > > >[] > >Mesora & the JewishTimes ? Aug. 8, 2008 > > > >[] > > > > >---------- > > > > >[] > > > > >---------- > > > > >[] > > > > >---------- >With plans for our website expansion additional >funds are necessary to reach our goals. Review >our grant proposal: >Press >Here >[] > > * > Tisha B'Av: Self Imposed Wounds > * The > Month of Av: Unlucky...or Misunderstood? > * > [] > > >Noachide Laws > * TalkLIVE class Aug. 3rd > * > [] > > >Human >Equality & King Solomon's Wisdom > * TalkLIVE class July 27th > * > Noachide > Fundamentals: Part I > * > Noachide > Fundamentals: Part II > * God has no Favorites >[] > > * WebShas: Topical Index to Talmud > * E-Daf.com: Aramaic Talmud > * English Talmud > * Guide for the Perplexed > * Pirkey Avos > * Blogs > * Rambam System > * Vesom Sechel > * Kankan Chadash > * Tipah Sheb'Yam > >[] > >August 2008 >Candle lighting is 18 minutes prior to sunset >Click a city to access a complete calendar > >Boston > >Chicago > >Cleveland > >Detroit > >Houston > >Jerusalem > >Johannesburg > >Los >Angeles > >London > >Miami > >Montreal >Moscow > >New >York > >Paris > >Philadelphia > >Phoenix > >Pittsburgh > >Seattle > >Sydney > >Tokyo > >Toronto > >Washington DC > > > >[] > > > >[] > > > >[] > > >[] > > >[] > >Mail inquiries to Mesora of NY, Inc. 553 Central Ave. 19A Cedarhurst, NY 11516 >Email us at: >office at mesora.org >Suspend emails: >unsubscribe at mesora.org > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/daf6544e/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Aug 8 19:04:35 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 19:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-SelfImposed Wounds In-Reply-To: <200808082354.m78NshjJ022126@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Wonderful news, Steve! Baruch HaShem & Shabbat Shalom and a meaningful Tisha b'Av to you and all. Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 6:55 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Fwd: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-SelfImposed Wounds Shabbat Shalom Everyone, Am doing a lot better, thanks be to HaShem. Thank you very much for all your many prayers everyone; am able to go without screaming now. And the house plumbing works too to boot. May all of you be inspired for what we need to do. Steve At 02:55 PM 8/8/2008, you wrote: Thank you, Steve. How are you? Shabbat Shalom, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 4:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-Self Imposed Wounds Friends, For those of you who may not be familiar with Mesora, here it is. It provides a scholarly and rational balance to what is often otherwise. You want to print them out, it is great reading for Shabbat. Shabbat Shalom, Steve From: Subject: JewishTimes 8/8: Tisha B'Av 5768-Self Imposed Wounds Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 23:04:05 -0400 IF NO IMAGES APPEAR BELOW, PRESS HERE AOL Users: Select "Show images & enable links" above. Add us to your address book. _____ Add "News at Mesora.org " to your address book, and to your "Safe List" or "White List" [] Mesora & the JewishTimes - Aug. 8, 2008 [] _____ [] _____ [] _____ With plans for our website expansion additional funds are necessary to reach our goals. Review our grant proposal: Press Here [] * Tisha B'Av: Self Imposed Wounds * The Month of Av: Unlucky...or Misunderstood? * [] Noachide Laws * Talk LIVE class Aug. 3rd * [] Human Equality & King Solomon's Wisdom * Talk LIVE class July 27th * Noachide Fundamentals: Part I * Noachide Fundamentals: Part II * God has no Favorites [] * WebShas: Topical Index to Talmud * E-Daf.com: Aramaic Talmud * English Talmud * Guide for the Perplexed * Pirkey Avos * Blogs * Rambam System * Vesom Sechel * Kankan Chadash * Tipah Sheb'Yam [] August 2008 Candle lighting is 18 minutes prior to sunset Click a city to access a complete calendar Boston Chicago Cleveland Detroit Houston Jerusalem Johannesburg Los Angeles London Miami Montreal Moscow New York Paris Philadelphia Phoenix Pittsburgh Seattle Sydney Tokyo Toronto Washington DC [] [] [] [] [] Mail inquiries to Mesora of NY, Inc. 553 Central Ave. 19A Cedarhurst, NY 11516 Email us at: office at mesora.org Suspend emails: unsubscribe at mesora.org _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/18ed4b83/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Aug 8 19:08:47 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 19:08:47 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch and Tisha b'Av this weekend! Message-ID: <7FC99FD3C3D14ED09AFA05DC79F5EBE9@bettygivin> Just a note to remind everyone to pray for Hanoch this weekend. Remember he speaking tomorrow night, giving the Keynote Address and also the next day. So he will usher in Tisha B'Av! May HaShem fill his mouth with His message! Shabbat Shalom all, Elisheva/Betty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080808/51efb327/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Aug 9 06:08:38 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 06:08:38 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Betty, Chazon- The Vision - Past Present and Future Message-ID: <4B054A0A04CA451C8167BC8748A649C7@bettygivin> Shabbat Shalom all. I found this very insightful and wanted to pass it on. Elisheva _____ From: nehoranews at aweber.com [mailto:nehoranews at aweber.com] On Behalf Of Nehora.Newsletter Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 10:49 PM To: betty Subject: Betty, Chazon- The Vision - Past Present and Future To subscribe to this Newsletter: http://nehora.com/subscribe.cfm Click here for Previous Bible Commentaries Dear Betty, Devarim - The Vision - Past Present and Future This Shabbat is called "Shabbat Chazon", (Shabbat of Vision). The name is after the prophecy that we read after this week's Torah reading. It is the first chapter in Isaiah and also the first prophecy of the prophet that brings most of the final redemption prophecies. His name Isaiah means "God will redeem". Here I bring you the actual chapter in English translation (NIV) and after each verse I've added my explanation. I suggest you read each verse twice. Isaiah 1 1 The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knows his master, the donkey his owner's manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand." 4 Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him. 5 Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion? Your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted. 6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness-- only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil. 7 Your country is desolate, your cities burned with fire; your fields are being stripped by foreigners right before you, laid waste as when overthrown by strangers. 8 The Daughter of Zion is left like a shelter in a vineyard, like a hut in a field of melons, like a city under siege. 9 Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah. 10 Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah! 11 "The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. 12 When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? 13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations-- I cannot bear your evil assemblies. 14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. 15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood; 16 wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, 17 learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. 18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. 19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; 20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken. 21 See how the faithful city has become a harlot! She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her-- but now murderers! 22 Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water. 23 Your rulers are rebels, companions of thieves; they all love bribes and chase after gifts. They do not defend the cause of the fatherless; the widow's case does not come before them. 24 Therefore the Lord, the LORD Almighty, the Mighty One of Israel, declares: "Ah, I will get relief from my foes and avenge myself on my enemies. 25 I will turn my hand against you; I will thoroughly purge away your dross and remove all your impurities. 26 I will restore your judges as in days of old, your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you will be called the City of Righteousness, the Faithful City." 27 Zion will be redeemed with justice, her penitent ones with righteousness. The reading from Isaiah ends at verse 27, in order to have a positive note and hope for the vision of the future. Before he passes away from the world, Moses reveals God's promise to fight the final battle for us and remove all negativity. The rest of Isaiah's prophecy (Isaiah 1:28-31) tells us that when God reveals himself to all and brings the light of redemption, all negativity and those who left the connection with God, will burn and cease to exists. What do we need to learn from this message? The prophecy teaches us that if we are not good to each other (verse 16, 17), there are no open door to God. Before we do any "religious" or "spiritual" ritual, there is one important and simple rule. Treat each other with human dignity with love and without any personal agenda. If you see a person in need on the way to your Temple, Church, Mosque or Synagogue, remember that God want you to be good to others BEFORE you come to him. If you are late to the service because you helped others, God will look at you like a father is proud of his child's achievement. Don't hurt anybody, don't cheat and don't lie, especially to yourself. If you still have negativity to cleanse and you find yourself in a place of worship, have a simple prayer from the bottom of your broken heart. "God, please help me clean my act, help me love others like myself". Just repeat it again and again and again and again until you feel the light comes in. (I did it myself countless times in the past until I felt no more anger or hate toward others). Only then I took a prayer book into my hands. Love and Blessings, Shabbat Shalom, Zion Nefesh Find me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Zion_Nefesh/1034817018 PS. Ezra and I are working on special report about "The Sword of Moses". Ezra will reveal the essence and the energy of "the Sword of Moses". Read future emails for release date. Jewish Books - http://Nehora.com Torah and Bible Commentaries- http://www.RabbiShimon.com Spiritual eBooks: http://www.DivineCalendar.com _____ Share the Light..... Forward this email to a friend. _____ Search for writings of the Ari (Rabbi Isaac Luria) Latest Hebrew books at Nehora.com Latest English books at Nehora.com The Genesis Prayer: (Many amazing Torah codes revealed in this book) Nehora.com, 199 Lee Ave. Suite 299 Brooklyn, NY 11211, USA To unsubscribe or change subscriber options visit: http://www.aweber.com/z/r/?zKwM7AzMtMzszEwMHAyMtEa0zGzsHAycTA== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080809/bfa21ec2/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 09:29:54 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:29:54 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Steven Spielberg Jewish Film Archive Message-ID: Click here: Virtual cinema of The Steven Spielberg Jewish Film Archive -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080810/de300777/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Aug 10 10:58:01 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:58:01 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Steven Spielberg Jewish Film Archive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Pat. This was very very moving and fitting for this day. Love to you and blessings, Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 9:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Steven Spielberg Jewish Film Archive Click here: Virtual cinema of The Steven Spielberg Jewish Film Archive -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080810/ce59a650/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sun Aug 10 17:05:30 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:05:30 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul - The 9th of Av Message-ID: I just wanted to send out a reminder that I will be teaching live on the Internet at 7:00 P.M. Central time. This will be a special class for the 9th of Av. I always try and stay in tune with the Jewish people in terms of "times and seasons". Go to the link below to access the Live feed. If you cannot listen live, I should have the podcast posted by 10:00 P.M. Central so that you can listen at your convenience. I do however hope that many of you will be able to listen in live tonight as this lesson is somewhat "time sensitive" in that the class is about the 9th of Av. _http://rootsoffaith.org/Audio_Torah.htm_ (http://rootsoffaith.org/Audio_Torah.htm) Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080810/9e9b09e1/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Aug 11 06:20:07 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 07:20:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Message-ID: <002201c8fba4$3748b7e0$0400a8c0@marvin> Ross and others, I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross was teaching. As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something. I have always had a question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to Zion and the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to their religion. Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying , "teach us for we know that God is with you". Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , is the gate at the outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this is the Eastern gate. At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. Almost all of the commandments are mentioned, representive of both tablets. What I see here is that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code. Israel as a whole, both Judea and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts. Any thoughts or comments? Shalom, marvin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080811/0ee89185/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 07:56:09 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 05:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Message-ID: <682981.58890.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello Marvin, I have a chapter in my book, on this subject,?that I would like to get your thoughts about. http://www.onhigh.org/twosticks7.htm Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:20:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Ross and others, ? I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross was teaching.?? As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something.??? I have always had a question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to Zion and the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to their religion.? Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying , ?teach us for we know that God is with you?.? Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , ?is the gate at the outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this is the Eastern gate. ? At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. ?Almost all of the commandments are mentioned, representive of both tablets.?? What I see here is that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code.? Israel as a whole, both Judea and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts.?? ? Any thoughts or comments? ? Shalom, marvin?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080811/c69f6cf4/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 11:23:53 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:23:53 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A MODERATE MUSLIM in danger of extinction Message-ID: This article was in www.aish.com today. by Lori Lowenthal Marcus Shoaib Choudhury dares to defy the party line of hatred towards Israel and contempt for all religions other than Islam. He may be executed for those beliefs soon. Email this Print this There lives in Dhaka one of the elusive souls for whom most of the world, or at least most Western politicians, have been searching: a true Islam-loving moderate Muslim who believes in brotherhood among all religions and respect for all nations by all nations. Unfortunately, it is possible that this priceless and endangered species may soon become extinct. At least since September 11, 2001, world and communal leaders have been touting the virtues of the "moderate Muslims." The express or implicit message is always that Islam has been hijacked by aberrant radicals but if we look to, nurture and promote the moderate Muslims, all will be well with the world. I've found a moderate Muslim, one who loves his religion and sincerely believes and steadfastly writes about his dreams for respect and understanding amongst all the great religions of the world. His name is Sallah Udin Shoaib Choudhury. He may well be executed for those beliefs soon. This Bangladeshi Muslim journalist dares to defy the party line of hatred towards Israel and contempt for all religions other than Islam. Not only does he write about the need for communication and understanding among Muslims, Christians and Jews in his newspaper The Weekly Blitz, but he dared to accept an invitation to attend and speak at a writers' conference in Israel. The topic of the conference was "Education Towards a Culture of Peace." On November 29, 2003, as he was about to board the plane in Dhaka on his way to that conference, Shoaib was dragged from the tarmac and arrested. His crime? He violated Bangladesh's Passport Act which forbids citizens from visiting countries such as Israel, with which it has no diplomatic relations. That law typically carries a fine of $8. What he found out the next day, however, when the magistrate announced it in court, was that he was accused of being a "spy for Israel." His captors wanted him to confess to being a Zionist spy. He refused. After his arrest Shoaib was taken to a Dhaka prison. While there, Shoaib had both of his legs broken with hockey sticks, he was interrogated incessantly and he was incarcerated in solitary confinement in a section of the prison otherwise populated with the criminally insane. He still vividly recalls hearing the screams of those prisoners which sometimes went on for hours. While Shoaib rotted in prison he was refused treatment for his glaucoma, as a result of which his vision remains impaired. His wardens even refused to allow him to go to his own mother's funeral. His captors wanted him to confess to being a Zionist spy. He refused. His body was broken but, in his own words, his "spirit was not." After 17 months Shoaib was finally released on bail. A frontline warrior in this victory was Dr. Richard Benkin. Benkin met Shoaib on the internet through their shared dreams for interfaith understanding. From the moment they connected, Benkin has ceaselessly fought for justice for Shoaib -- he has traveled to Bangladesh to be there during fruitless hearings, he has hounded the media and the US government to protect this righteous journalist from further imprisonment, torture, and perhaps death. Benkin frequently says of his dear friend, "If Shoaib Choudhury was in Europe during the Shoah, he would have refused to drive the trains!" Benkin enlisted Rep. Mark Kirk (R-Il.) who has tirelessly and sincerely endeavored to bring Shoaib's case to light, and to shelter him with everything in the US arsenal of diplomacy. Despite those efforts, on September 18, 2006, the Bangladesh government ordered Shoaib to stand trial for sedition. The charges, as read to Shoaib by Judge Md. Momin Ullah on November 13, 2006, informed him that he "made offensive comments on [the] Muslim world, Islam and Muslims in Bangladesh and commented about the existence of al Qaeda and other Islamist militant groups, by which you have tarnished the image of Bangladesh in the outside world." Such sedition is punishable by death. Finally, after years of delay coupled with repeated government-backed episodes of intimidation, brutal attacks and the repeated ransacking of his newspaper's offices, the case against Shoaib Choudhury began on August 6, 2008. Frankly, Shoaib's story sounded to me like an apocryphal tale: one told to demonstrate a point, not one describing a real human being. Could there really be someone who matches the icon of "moderate Muslim" all politicians and most human beings have spoken about, yet had heretofore evaded discovery? As I discovered over time, through correspondence and long personal conversations, Shoaib is the real thing. In a world encased in murderous rage generated in the name of Islam, his is a clear soul animated by the love that comes from his understanding of his religion. And that love pierces the wariness and even hatred against Islam that so many other practitioners of his religion have created. I watched as this man, a bizarrely buoyant individual with short dark hair and large dark-tinted glasses, spoke to a living room full of Philadelphians, answering questions, even mean-spirited ones, with complete candor and equanimity. I sat at a table with him in my own backyard as he continued talking amiably about his life and dreams. And my eyes crinkled when he spontaneously burst into a syncopated song along with table-thumping and hand movements. My 12-year-old daughter was enchanted and recorded the performance on her camera. But for a glimpse into the rarified soul of Shoaib Choudhury, hear what I heard when he answered two very obvious questions he fields wherever he goes. The first question is -- why he doesn't seek political asylum and get out of Bangladesh as soon as possible? His answer -- I heard it with my own ears -- is that if he were to leave, what kind of message would that send to his many silent supporters who want him to succeed, who want greater freedom and broader understanding, but who fear speaking out themselves. He says he won't abandon those people and leave them without any hope. "Everyone is going to die. The only issue is what you do while you are alive." The second question I not only heard with my own ears, but felt right through my heart. When asked whether he was afraid that he was going to get killed, he said: "Look, everyone is going to die. The only issue is what you do while you are alive." And what he is doing is trumpeting his message, educating toward a world culture of peace. Imagine a world in which people like this were lionized instead of victimized, if they became world-renowned and lauded instead of being threatened and hounded. Whether Shoaib Choudhury will be given a forum in which to speak and educate all citizens of his sublime worldview remains a question. The Islamic fundamentalists who, in Shoaib's conception of the universe pervert their religion and use it as a tool to oppress and even murder all those who disagree with their worldview, have imprisoned him, tortured him, threatened his children and threaten to kill him. If they remain steadfast in their position, Shoiab will be silenced forever. So the next time you hear people use that catchy phrase, "moderate Muslim," ask them what they have done to help Shoaib Choudhury. Tell his story if they don't know it. Help us keep this world-class, extremely precious treasure as a living teacher, rather than a martyred memory. Do what you can to make sure the wrongly-punished are freed, and the wrongly-free are punished. For information on what you can do to help Shoaib, go to www.boycottbangladesh.org. And please send him a note of encouragement through his Weekly Blitz website, www.weeklyblitz.net . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080811/5112f883/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080811/5112f883/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 60393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080811/5112f883/attachment-0001.jpe From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Mon Aug 11 11:47:09 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:47:09 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts In-Reply-To: <682981.58890.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <682981.58890.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200808111647.m7BGkxFa032453@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> Tracy, You have an excellent exposition on the Noachite laws. Of course they are places to start to turn /return to G-d for everyone. As Marvin says, "... we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code. Israel as a whole, both Judah and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts." It certainly is a place to start for all, for it is a beginning of minimum obligations to basic directives by God for all mankind. Alienated Israelites, gentiles of all sorts can begin here. Of course Israelites can and need to go further, for after all we left the Covenant and the priesthood nation of God. Never the less, it can be a beginning for all, for it is the ideal "training school" for all. We cannot start in the 12th, 10th, or even the fifth grade when we have not been in school at all. We must start in "the beginning of some observance" and add as we make progress in those that we started earlier. The Lubavitcher Rebbe recommended, that secular and not observant Jews of all stripes just "start with one mitzvah at a time." I think it is wise advice. I know that some rabbis who know about the Ten Tribes, recommend that they come back first as Noachites. This only makes sense to them, since according to halacha in the Talmud, they are regarded as gentiles. Truly, the Ten Tribes were cursed out of their own mouths. They wanted to be like the gentiles, and so God took away their identity totally for 2700 years and let them live as gentiles till their sentence is up at the end of days. Of course the Ten Tribes are obligated to eventually return to the Covenant and all its obligations. No, I did not say that Ten Tribers have to become "Jewish." Yet, they are obligated to start moving out of the gentile ways of being in the world" and they can learn a lot from Jews. This process is already going on among the pioneer returnees at their own particular pace because they are listening to G-d's call to them in the Torah and the Prophets . It is an individual matter for individuals and local congregations to find their way back home. Yes, a returnee / turnee needs to stop eating "blutwurst" immediately. It is a place to start. Later, they can stop eating pork, and later they may want to eat kosher. It is a sensible progression. Noachites will stop with the 7 laws. Ten Tribers will go further. We will all be friends. Steve "Only prayer, torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." Ps.: Those who had revelations, PRs and dreams about returning to observance, please let the list know. We need to let everyone know what God wants of us returnees in the matte of observance. At 05:56 AM 8/11/2008, you wrote: >Hello Marvin, > >I have a chapter in my book, on this subject, that I would like to >get your thoughts about. > >http://www.onhigh.org/twosticks7.htm > >Love & Prayers, > >Tracy > >----- Original Message ---- >From: mhyde >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:20:07 AM >Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts > >Ross and others, > > > >I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as >Ross was teaching. As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, >2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something. I have always had a >question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the >nations look to Zion and the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and >leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to >their religion. Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying >, "teach us for we know that God is with you". Some commentaries >say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , is the gate at the outer court, >that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this >is the Eastern gate. > > > >At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. Almost all of the commandments >are mentioned, representive of both tablets. What I see here is >that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a >minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code. Israel as a >whole, both Judea and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a >minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts. > > > >Any thoughts or comments? > > > >Shalom, > >marvin > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080811/3054e683/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 13:35:18 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 11:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Message-ID: <745348.22375.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks for the kind words, Steve and Clyde. Thanks Marvin for introducing this topic. Steve, I agree wholeheartedly. For some of us 10 Tribers, after having been dealt with concerning issues going beyond the 7 Noachite laws, along with an aversion to "The Pharisees/Rabbi's" teachings, it takes a while to really see through these things. All of a sudden, we realize we're 10 Tribers, and begin following additional precepts (in our own way, I might add) and then, are told that these commands are not for you, we can get the feeling that we're being told to go to the back of the bus. Therefore, there is a resistance by some to these categories. If I may suggest for further consideration and comment: An object lesson for the role of the 12 Tribes among the 70 Nations is described in these verses from the Parasha Mas'ei: Num 33:9 They set out from Marah and came to Elim. There were twelve springs [12 Tribes] in Elim and seventy palm trees [70 Nations], so they?encamped there. Our role was/is to be a priestly nation [12 Tribes] among all 70 nations and be the source of "water" to lead the 70 nations back to HaShem. Another verse in the same Parasha, Numbers 35:15?? These six cities shall be a refuge, for #1) the children of Israel [In the Land], and for #2) the stranger [Ger - Advanced Noachites dwelling in the Land with Israel], and for #3) the sojourner among you...?[Toshav -?Noachites visiting the Land temporarily - Foreigners] The Levitical Cities can be seen as teaching centers for all of these categories.?And, they would?serve as?Welcome Centers, to orient Foreigners?to the basics of Our Nation?during their visit.? An?additional object lesson, which?may relate to the 7 Noachite Laws, would be that of Elisha & Naaman in 2Kings 5:1-19. Notice the "7" immersions as a symbol for the 7 Laws or Categories of Laws. Naaman was converted to the G-d of Israel, without becoming an Israelite. The Prophet said to him, "Go in Shalom". Notice, the awkward position that this new convert was in as he went back to his nation. Many of us find ourselves in similar situations also. We need "wisdom from above" in manuvering in such circumstances as Naaman lived. In the categorization above, Naaman was #3) A Toshav. He could have been a lost triber and after returning home, he might begin to have an inner urge to return to the Land to live, and become #2) A Ger. After a while, his heart might begin to desire to go all the way?and keep the Passover. He would then be circumcised, and become #1) An Israelite. More to ask about, later... Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Steve Mathe To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:47:09 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Tracy, You have an excellent exposition on the Noachite laws. Of course they are places to start to turn /return to G-d for everyone.As Marvin says, "... we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code.? Israel as a whole, both Judah and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts."? It certainly is a place to start for all, for it is a beginning of minimum obligations to basic directives by God for all mankind.? Alienated Israelites, gentiles of all sorts can begin here. Of course Israelites can and need to go further, for after all we left the Covenant and the priesthood nation of God. Never the less, it can be a beginning for all, for it is the ideal "training school" for all.? We cannot start in the 12th, 10th, or even the fifth grade when we have not been in school at all.? We must start in "the beginning of some observance" and add as we make progress in those that we started earlier.? The Lubavitcher Rebbe recommended, that secular and not observant Jews of all stripes just "start with one mitzvah at a time."? I think it is wise advice. I know that some rabbis? who know about the Ten Tribes, recommend that they come back first as Noachites. This only makes sense to them, since according to halacha in the Talmud, they are regarded as gentiles. Truly, the Ten Tribes were cursed out of their own mouths.? They wanted to be like the gentiles, and so God took away their identity totally for 2700 years and let them live as gentiles till their sentence is up at the end of days. Of course the Ten Tribes are obligated to eventually return to the Covenant and all its obligations. No, I did not say that Ten Tribers have to become "Jewish." Yet, they are obligated to start moving out of the gentile ways of being in the world" and they can learn a lot from Jews. This process is already going on among the pioneer returnees at their own particular pace because they are listening to G-d's call? to them in the Torah and the Prophets . It is an individual matter for individuals and local congregations to find their way back home.? Yes, a returnee / turnee needs to stop eating "blutwurst" immediately.? It is a place to start.? Later, they can stop eating pork, and later they may want to eat kosher. It is a sensible progression.? Noachites will stop with the 7 laws.? Ten Tribers will go further. We will all be friends. Steve "Only prayer, torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." Ps.: Those who had revelations, PRs and dreams about returning to observance, please let the list know.? We need to let everyone know what God wants of us returnees in the matte of observance. At 05:56 AM 8/11/2008, you wrote: Hello Marvin, ? I have a chapter in my book, on this subject, that I would like to get your thoughts about. ? http://www.onhigh.org/twosticks7.htm ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:20:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Ross and others, ? I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross was teaching.?? As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something.??? I have always had a question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to Zion and the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to their religion.? Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying , ?teach us for we know that God is with you?.? Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 ,? is the gate at the outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this is the Eastern gate. ? At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10.? Almost all of the commandments are mentioned, representive of both tablets.?? What I see here is that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code.? Israel as a whole, both Judea and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts.?? ? Any thoughts or comments? ? Shalom, marvin?? _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080811/e20784f7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Aug 12 06:18:54 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:18:54 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Lekarev Report - 11 Av 5768 Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 11 Av 5768 August 12, 2008 Shalom O Hashem, do not keep silence; do not hold Your peace, and do not be still. For, see, Your enemies are in an uproar; and those who hate You have lifted up their heads. They hold crafty negotiations against Your people, and take counsel against Your treasured ones. Psalm 83:1-3 **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080812/7b793cc9/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 07:19:35 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 05:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Message-ID: <924542.29764.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Steve, Is it advisable, helpful, or necessary, etc., etc., for the 10 Tribers to take a Noachite Oath before a Jewish Beit Din? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 2:35:18 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Thanks for the kind words, Steve and Clyde. Thanks Marvin for introducing this topic. ? Steve, I agree wholeheartedly. For some of us 10 Tribers, after having been dealt with concerning issues going beyond the 7 Noachite laws, along with an aversion to "The Pharisees/Rabbi's" teachings, it takes a while to really see through these things. All of a sudden, we realize we're 10 Tribers, and begin following additional precepts (in our own way, I might add) and then, are told that these commands are not for you, we can get the feeling that we're being told to go to the back of the bus. Therefore, there is a resistance by some to these categories. ? If I may suggest for further consideration and comment: ? An object lesson for the role of the 12 Tribes among the 70 Nations is described in these verses from the Parasha Mas'ei: Num 33:9 They set out from Marah and came to Elim. There were twelve springs [12 Tribes] in Elim and seventy palm trees [70 Nations], so they?encamped there. Our role was/is to be a priestly nation [12 Tribes] among all 70 nations and be the source of "water" to lead the 70 nations back to HaShem. ? Another verse in the same Parasha, Numbers 35:15?? These six cities shall be a refuge, for ? #1) the children of Israel [In the Land], and for #2) the stranger [Ger - Advanced Noachites dwelling in the Land with Israel], and for #3) the sojourner among you...?[Toshav -?Noachites visiting the Land temporarily - Foreigners] ? The Levitical Cities can be seen as teaching centers for all of these categories.?And, they would?serve as?Welcome Centers, to orient Foreigners?to the basics of Our Nation?during their visit.? ? An?additional object lesson, which?may relate to the 7 Noachite Laws, would be that of Elisha & Naaman in 2Kings 5:1-19. Notice the "7" immersions as a symbol for the 7 Laws or Categories of Laws. Naaman was converted to the G-d of Israel, without becoming an Israelite. The Prophet said to him, "Go in Shalom". Notice, the awkward position that this new convert was in as he went back to his nation. Many of us find ourselves in similar situations also. We need "wisdom from above" in manuvering in such circumstances as Naaman lived. ? In the categorization above, Naaman was ? #3) A Toshav. He could have been a lost triber and after returning home, he might begin to have an inner urge to return to the Land to live, and become #2) A Ger. After a while, his heart might begin to desire to go all the way?and keep the Passover. He would then be circumcised, and become #1) An Israelite. ? More to ask about, later... ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? ----- Original Message ---- From: Steve Mathe To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:47:09 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Tracy, You have an excellent exposition on the Noachite laws. Of course they are places to start to turn /return to G-d for everyone.As Marvin says, "... we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code.? Israel as a whole, both Judah and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts."? It certainly is a place to start for all, for it is a beginning of minimum obligations to basic directives by God for all mankind.? Alienated Israelites, gentiles of all sorts can begin here. Of course Israelites can and need to go further, for after all we left the Covenant and the priesthood nation of God. Never the less, it can be a beginning for all, for it is the ideal "training school" for all.? We cannot start in the 12th, 10th, or even the fifth grade when we have not been in school at all.? We must start in "the beginning of some observance" and add as we make progress in those that we started earlier.? The Lubavitcher Rebbe recommended, that secular and not observant Jews of all stripes just "start with one mitzvah at a time."? I think it is wise advice. I know that some rabbis? who know about the Ten Tribes, recommend that they come back first as Noachites. This only makes sense to them, since according to halacha in the Talmud, they are regarded as gentiles. Truly, the Ten Tribes were cursed out of their own mouths.? They wanted to be like the gentiles, and so God took away their identity totally for 2700 years and let them live as gentiles till their sentence is up at the end of days. Of course the Ten Tribes are obligated to eventually return to the Covenant and all its obligations. No, I did not say that Ten Tribers have to become "Jewish." Yet, they are obligated to start moving out of the gentile ways of being in the world" and they can learn a lot from Jews. This process is already going on among the pioneer returnees at their own particular pace because they are listening to G-d's call? to them in the Torah and the Prophets . It is an individual matter for individuals and local congregations to find their way back home.? Yes, a returnee / turnee needs to stop eating "blutwurst" immediately.? It is a place to start.? Later, they can stop eating pork, and later they may want to eat kosher. It is a sensible progression.? Noachites will stop with the 7 laws.? Ten Tribers will go further. We will all be friends. Steve "Only prayer, torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." Ps.: Those who had revelations, PRs and dreams about returning to observance, please let the list know.? We need to let everyone know what God wants of us returnees in the matte of observance. At 05:56 AM 8/11/2008, you wrote: Hello Marvin, ? I have a chapter in my book, on this subject, that I would like to get your thoughts about. ? http://www.onhigh.org/twosticks7.htm ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:20:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Ross and others, ? I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross was teaching.?? As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something.??? I have always had a question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to Zion and the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to their religion.? Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying , ?teach us for we know that God is with you?.? Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 ,? is the gate at the outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this is the Eastern gate. ? At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10.? Almost all of the commandments are mentioned, representive of both tablets.?? What I see here is that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code.? Israel as a whole, both Judea and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts.?? ? Any thoughts or comments? ? Shalom, marvin?? _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080812/6e84bbec/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 12 09:38:28 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:38:28 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Lekarev Report - 11 Av 5768 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2056905532-1218553088-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-169114348-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Hey Hanoch! Tell us about the conference last weekend. How did your talks go? JC Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:18:54 To: Subject: [Dialogue] Lekarev Report - 11 Av 5768 _______________________________________________ From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Aug 12 11:38:12 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:38:12 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts In-Reply-To: <002201c8fba4$3748b7e0$0400a8c0@marvin> References: <002201c8fba4$3748b7e0$0400a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: I agree and I expand on this in the new version of Restoring Abrahamic Faith. It seems to me the "Seven" are minimal and a good "identification" marker vis-a-vis Judaism. For one to say, "I just know in my heart" or because I am from the NW Celtic peoples, that I am of the "tribes," might wash if someone has read the research of people like Hulley, but in general it can just sound nutty. I often say, "Noahide" is not my definition of myself, but it is a good Jewish definition of someone who has my God/Torah/Israel orientation and who is not a halachically Jewish. I find it most functional and I have no objection to Judaism "defining itself." I think they had no choice given the 2000 years of Exile. But even more interesting the question you touch on--what will cause the attraction, of Zechariah 2 & 8; Isaiah 2, and Jeremiah 7, and many other passages. WHY do the nations suddenly stream up to Zion. I have my ideas, but wonder if anyone else wants to jump in here... James On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:20 AM, mhyde wrote: > Ross and others, > > I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as > Ross was teaching. As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, > 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something. I have always had a > question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the > nations look to Zionand the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and > leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to > their religion. Remember it is us who is looking to them and > saying , ?teach us for we know that God is with you?. Some > commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , is the gate at the > outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and > others say this is the Eastern gate. > > At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. Almost all of the commandments > are mentioned, representive of both tablets. What I see here is > that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a > minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code. Israel as a > whole, bothJudea and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a > minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts. > > Any thoughts or comments? > > Shalom, > marvin > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080812/c8ad837e/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Aug 12 14:37:40 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:37:40 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Seek His Face (again) In-Reply-To: References: <1177176681-1213082957-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-188449979-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <200808121937.m7CJbVSo023529@mail2505.carrierzone.com> Friends, I found this old email while searching for another one. Am resending it to all for your consideration and comments. Even if you have no comments, it is a most important message because of the PRs. I just heard the Dennis Prager program, in which he talks about his difficulty with prayer. A Mormon caller just commented that in his church prayer is understood as a "two-way communication." It is also my view, and I wish that we all pray, communicate with God as such, expecting an answer like Moses, Eldad and Medad. I know I said this before on this list, but I want to say it again, to reinforce this "two way communication" idea that we in this lot of resurrectees from the Valley of Dry Bones need to keep in mind and practice. If you can reinforce this with Scripture references or anything else from your knowledge and experience, e.g. when you found out that God actually answers prayers, please do so. Thanks, Steve At 04:19 AM 6/10/2008, you wrote: >Shalom all, I couldn?t sleep tonight, so I got >up, opened up to Psalms and a several verses jumped out at me. >?As for me, I will behold Thy face in >righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I >awake, with beholding Thy likeness? (Psalm 17:15.) >?For the L-RD is righteousness, he loves >righteousness; the upright shall behold His Face.? ((Psalm 11;7) >Then I remembered that John had mentioned >seeking HaShem?s face in an email, so I looked >it up he had made reference to a passage in >Hosea that he said had ?struck? him. >?I will go and return to My place, till they >acknowledge their offence, and seek My face ?Hosea 5:15 >This caught my attention because this is >something that has been much on my mind as well, >especially lately, during these days between >Pesach and Shavuot as we have counted the >omer. Seeking the face of our G-d is one of the >major themes of Torah, for it is the path of t?shuvah, of return. >I was then reminded and the PR?s that both Pat >and I had received within two days of one >another when we were each wrestling with issues >of the heart and trying to understand what each of us should be doing. >?I have set the LORD always before me: surely He >is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.? > >Psalms 16:8 >In a recent post, Steve wrote > > ?Since Betty and Pat disclosed their PRs, I am > disclosing this one to add to theirs for a > composite message for all to consider: > On 7-28-2000 I received the following PRs: >"When thou saidst, 'Seek ye my face,' my heart >said unto to Thee, 'Thy face, LORD will I seek.'" (Psalm 27:8) >This verse seems to tell us that HaShem calls >us, our Soul / higher self hears it, and then >our Soul speaks to us, which we sense as a deep >desire arising form our depths, our "hearts," >to which we respond. This mechanism hearkens to >the last verse in Malachi, where the hearts of >the fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, call to >us, and then we reciprocate by responding to >that call to "return to the Ancient Path of life >they tread, and to the Covenant they made." > >On 9-08-07 I received the following PR in the same vein >"This is the generation of them that seek Him, >that seek thy face, O God of Jacob." (Psalm 24:6) >Friends, brothers and sisters, fellow >Israelites, we need to "seek the face of our >God," the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob >earnestly, for directives of what to do. Am >asking all to use this phrase earnestly in our >prayers often, especially now for the festival of Shavuot.? >I personally have had Steve?s prayer in my heart >and mind regarding the desperate need of doing >t?shuvah for passing down the ?lies of the >fathers,? to help prepare the way for ?Tikkun >Olam? (the repair of the world?) when those of >Joseph will join with brother Judah and HaShem >will light up the world with His >countenance. It is my belief that it is our >responsibility as those who have been shown the >Torah path to continually ?Seek His Face!? >B?Ahava, >Elisheva/Betty > > > > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080812/4efc9601/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 19:56:50 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] FYI Message-ID: <516812.82298.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Three major US naval strike forces due this week in Persian Gulf August 11, 2008, 10:37 AM (GMT+02:00) New America armada around Iran DEBKAfile's military sources note that the arrival of the three new American flotillas will raise to five the number of US strike forces in Middle East waters ? an unprecedented build-up since the crisis erupted over Iran's nuclear program. This vast naval and air strength consists of more than 40 carriers, warships and submarines, some of the last nuclear-armed, opposite the Islamic Republic, a concentration last seen just before the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003. Our military sources postulate five objects of this show of American muscle: 1. The US, aided also by France, Britain and Canada, is finalizing preparations for a partial naval blockade to deny Iran imports of benzene and other refined oil products. This action would indicate that the Bush administration had thrown in the towel on stiff United Nations sanctions and decided to take matters in its own hands. 2. Iran, which imports 40 percent of its refined fuel products from Gulf neighbors, will retaliate for the embargo by shutting the Strait of Hormuz oil route chokepoint, in which case the US naval and air force stand ready to reopen the Strait and fight back any Iranian attempt to break through the blockade. 3. Washington is deploying forces as back-up for a possible Israeli military attack on Iran's nuclear installations. 4. A potential rush of events in which a US-led blockade, Israeli attack and Iranian reprisals pile up in a very short time and precipitate a major military crisis. 5. While a massive deployment of this nature calls for long planning, its occurrence at this time cannot be divorced from the flare-up of the Caucasian war between Russia and Georgia. While Russia has strengthened its stake in Caspian oil resources by its overwhelming military intervention against Georgia, the Americans are investing might in defending the primary Persian Gulf oil sources of the West and the Far East. DEBKAfile's military sources name the three US strike forces en route to the Gulf as the USS Theodore Roosevelt , the USS Ronald Reagan and the USS Iwo Jima . Already in place are the USS Abraham Lincoln in the Arabian Sea opposite Iranian shores and the USS Peleliu which is cruising in the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080812/d613be60/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Aug 12 22:25:36 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:25:36 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "The sins of their fathers" Message-ID: Very interesting story - unusual.. Hanoch The sins of their fathers Tanya Gold - Aug 06, 2008 The Guardian A relative of Hitler is now Jewish and living in Israel. So is the son of a Waffen-SS man. Tanya Gold talks to the descendants of Nazis who have embraced Judaism Two years ago I read a strange little story in an obscure American magazine for Orthodox Jews, claiming that a descendant of Adolf Hitler had converted to Judaism and was living in Israel. I had heard rumours in Jewish circles for years about 'the penitents' - children of Nazis who become Jews to try to expiate the sins of their fathers. Could it be true? I dug further and discovered that a man with a family connection to Hitler does indeed live in Israel as an Orthodox Jew. Virtually unnoticed in the English-speaking world, he was exposed seven years ago in an Israeli tabloid. Then he sank from sight. I went to Israel to meet him - and on the way I was plunged into the strange subculture of the Nazi-descended Jews. I am walking through the alleys of the Old City of Jerusalem, to meet Aharon Shear-Yashuv. He is the son of a Nazi. And yet he was a senior rabbi in the Israeli armed forces. He lives in an apartment in the Jewish quarter, near the Western Wall. I walk through a pale gold alley; Orthodox Jewish men in long black coats and round fur hats dart past. He opens the door and looks like every other rabbi I have ever met - a black suit, a beard, a questioning shrug. He takes me into his study, settles into a chair, and says, in a thick German accent: 'My father was in the Waffen-SS.' He was, he explains, born in the Ruhr Valley in 1940. During the war, his father served on the eastern front with Hitler's elite troops. What did his father do in the Waffen-SS? 'I don't know,' he says calmly. 'When I grew up I tried to ask, but there weren't really answers.' He was four when he first met his father. 'I don't remember anything about that,' he says. It seems he doesn't want to talk about his father; he doesn't describe his conversion in psychological terms but in grand theological and historical ones. 'During my theological studies at university it became clear that I couldn't be a minister in the church,' he says. 'I concluded that Christianity was paganism. One of [its] most important dogmas is that God became man, and if God becomes man then man also can become God.' He pauses. 'Hitler became a kind of god.' So would he have become a Jew even if the Holocaust had never happened, even if his family had been anti-Nazi? He looks surprised. 'Oh yes.' I try to draw him back to his father, but he seems exasperated. 'Well, you see, he is a father, of course, but ideologically, there was no connection. I was so involved in my conviction that I had found the right path, all the other items no longer had any importance.' Fragments of the story begin to emerge through the haze of theological reasoning. His father was 'shocked and enraged' when he went to study Judaism in America, he concedes. 'For him that was the end of the world. 'My son is leaving Germany to study in a Jewish rabbinical seminary!' He told me I was crazy and renounced me as a son.' When he moved to Israel, his parents pretended that it hadn't happened; they told their neighbours he was still in America. Years later, his sister arranged a meeting with his parents at a station in D?sseldorf. Shear-Yashuv arrived with a Jewish friend. His father peered out of the train, saw the Jewish stranger, and refused to get off. Today, he believes Germany is doomed. 'People there don't get married, and if they do they have one child,' he says. 'But the Turks and the other foreigners have many children. So it is a question of time that Germany will no longer be German.' Why does he think this has happened? 'I think it is a punishment for the Holocaust,' he says, matter-of-factly. 'Germany will leave the stage of history, no doubt about it.' But the Jews, by contrast, will never die. This is a neat irony of history that he loves. 'All the great cultures have left the stage of history,' he says. 'The Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Babylonians. But this little people, who gave so much to the world, do not.' He chuckles. 'That is something.' I walk through the Old City, pondering my encounter with this strange, kindly man. Something seems to be missing from his story. To stand in front of a rabbi whose father was in the SS and to hear he became a Jew because he doubted the Trinity is absurd. So I telephone Dan Bar-On, a professor of psychology at Ben Gurion University, and a world expert on the psychology of the children of perpetrators. He tells me, flatly, pitilessly: 'The motive of the converts is to join the community of the victims. If you become part of the victim community, you get rid of the burden of being part of the perpetrator community.' He interviewed Shear-Yashuv for his book Legacy of Silence. 'For me,' he says, 'Shear-Yashuv represents a person who ran away from the past.' A few days later, I take a tatty bus to the Holocaust memorial Yad Vashem, on a mountain just outside Jerusalem. There is an air of absolute, manufactured silence. In the middle is a glass-and-concrete mausoleum - the memorial. I am here to meet a woman who works in the educational department. She was born in Munich, she told me on the telephone, and she is a convert. I meet her in a cafe on the terrace; it is very chichi, but the wind is blowing in from the desert. She is in her late 30s and her head is covered. Her face is stereotypically German but the mannerisms - her emphatic movements and the soaring cadences of her voice - are all Jewish. I cannot name her, she says. (Apart from Shear-Yashuv, every convert refuses to be named.) She tells me, briskly and crossly, that although her grandparents were not perpetrators in the Holocaust, they were bystanders, anti-semites. Her mother, she explains, still says things like, 'There are a lot of rich Jews in America,' and her family have what she calls 'a classic German narrative' about the war. She bunches her fists. 'There were no Jews in these stories and no Nazis in these stories,' she says. And she imitates them, angrily. 'No, no, there were no Nazis, we are not Nazis. We didn't know any Jews, we didn't know anything.' How did she feel about it? She pauses, and then says, 'I was annoyed.' Her favoured word for Germany is 'annoyed'. She was 'annoyed' when a synagogue recently opened in Munich. 'People said, 'Now we have closed the circle; now everything is fine,'' she says. 'It was like nothing had happened. But there were 11,000 Jews in Munich before the Holocaust. Where are they now?' She is annoyed by the affluence of Germany. 'Everything is so clean,' she says. 'Everything is so ... nice. And here,' she stares out over the mountains, 'the life is so difficult sometimes.' Why did she become Jewish? 'Because I was annoyed by how the narrative was fixed,' she says. She tells me a story from the Midrash, a Jewish commentary on the Bible. There are, it states, non-Jews who are born with Jewish souls. They belong to the Jewish people, and will eventually join them. 'It is only a matter of time,' she says, speaking very seriously, 'before you learn you should convert.' I remember Shear-Yashuv said this too. I ask her if she believes that Nazi children convert to expiate the guilt of their parents - but this angers her. 'There is something not right when you do it to get rid of your German burden,' she says. 'That is not honest in my eyes. Do you stop being the daughter of a Wehrmacht soldier if you are Jewish? No. That is no solution. You don't get rid of it.' So why is she here? 'To live here, to work here, to be this bridge between two worlds.' She repeats the word 'bridge' and she calls it 'exciting'. She talks of her 'motivation package' and she calls the 'discourse about the Holocaust' in Germany 'sophisticated'. There is something emotionless about it, something deeply unsaid. And precisely on the stroke of the hour, she looks at her watch and says, 'I have to go now.' I call Bar-On again. I feel the converts are giving me half-answers, scraps of answers. They talk about despising the Trinity and the terrible things that the Germans did to the Jews, but it seems like they are talking a genocide that doesn't exist, even in their memories. I can't escape the feeling that it is all about something else. I tell Bar-On they talk obsessively about the Trinity. But is incredulity really a reason for abandoning a religion with a three-in-one god for one that still believes bushes talk and that waves are parted by the will of God? 'That is another way of saying what I have already told you,' he says. 'They want to join the community of the victim. They may have their own way of rationalizing it.' Later that day, I meet a young man. He bounces into a kebab shop on West Jerusalem's main drag. He is 24, handsome and excitable. He tells me, simply, that he hated Germany. 'In Germany I didn't care about anyone,' he spits. 'I didn't give a fuck.' He describes a jumbled youth, being thrown out of school, joining the army, rejecting the army. After a while, he drags me off to the Independence Park, sipping a Coke, and telling me how wonderful it all is in Israel. He describes growing up in a small town in industrial western Germany. A terrible anger leaks into his sentences. When I ask him why he converted, he stares at the spindly trees, bunches his arms between his knees like an adolescent boy, and says, 'I hate that question. I don't know.' He calms down and says that something wasn't right for him in Germany, ever: 'I was always looking for my place. I hated Catholicism. I have hated it since I was 14.' He educated himself and what he likes about Judaism, he says, is that 'what counts is the deed. In Christianity it is enough just to believe.' 'I didn't think of my family of being like 'the Germans',' he says. 'I didn't say, 'Grandfather, did you kill anyone?' My grandmother said, 'As kids under the Nazis, before the war, we had a wonderful time. They sent us to Croatia, they sent us to Sweden, and we had youth camps. How could we not be thankful for what they gave us?'' The Holocaust was just a subject you learned in history, he says. 'You went in the classroom twice a week, they told you, you fell asleep.' But he tells me one of his grandmother's anecdotes about Nazism. 'She remembers Kristallnacht,' he says. 'She was 13. She says she remembered there were Jewish shops that got burned down and it was a big loss. Because, she said, you could always go to the Jews and buy something and if you didn't have the money you could bring it in next time.' And that is his family. He never asked them about the war - I have yet to meet a convert who has. According to Bar-On, converts and their parents almost never speak about the war. He calls it the 'double wall': both the parent and child erect a wall of silence; even if one tries to break it, the other will keep it firmly in place. This man told his parents he was converting one Christmas Day. He has had death threats from neo-Nazis, he says. His hometown is full of them. Why does he think they became neo-Nazis? 'Ask them - don't ask me,' he replies. Did he become Jewish because of the Holocaust? 'People ask me that a lot,' he says, 'and when I say no they don't believe me.' Does he really believe that? 'Maybe.' He sighs and looks around at the trees. 'Maybe what the war made Germany into ...' He pauses and then says, 'I feel myself turning into a block of ice every time when I go back. I have to force myself to melt down again.' I call Bar-On a final time. They all say they are happy now, I tell him. Is this true? The conversion 'may give them an illusion of peace', he says. 'But it is not the way to work through the role of the parents [in the war]. I think it is running away from it. In order to be able to really work through the past, you have to try to understand how could it be that your father was a mass murderer. You have to think of the possibilities that had you lived at this time you might also have been able to do such things.' Is he telling me that they are always wondering what they would have done in Nazi Germany to the Jews they have become? 'Being in Israel is to keep away as far as possible from it,' he replies. 'I am not sure to what extent they have really been accepted into Israeli society. I think they are struggling. I don't envy them.' As far as I can tell, the converts may know of each other, but they do not come together. In Judaism it is a sin to point the finger at a convert. And why would they? They are not here to be German; they are here to be Jewish. I return to the suburbs to meet an artist. This convert is also a member of an organization that promotes human rights for Palestinians. An incredibly beautiful woman answers the door and I say hello. 'Oh, no,' she says. 'You are not here to speak to me - you are here to speak to my girlfriend.' The woman I have come to interview is small and wiry, with short hair; she says she is 42. She speaks very, very fast. The words pour out of her. She sits me down and gives me cake and coffee. I say I have interviewed a lot of converts. 'Are they all mad?' she asks me, and laughs. What does she mean? 'Well,' she says, 'I met some who surprised me. Some of them were shockingly unintelligent. I even wondered why they would have the intellectual independence to make this choice - especially the people who chose to be ultra-Orthodox, who chose to throw away their freedom.' She shrugs. 'There is stigma in conversion,' she says. 'People end up being fanatics.' She sips her coffee and says that she believes there is a parallel between the way that some Jews respond to the Palestinians and the way some Germans responded to the Nazis. She never asked her grandmother about the war, she says, because she loved her too much. 'I was worried I would get hurt by information I didn't want to know,' she says. 'Sometimes I feel that a lot of Israelis live that way. It is better not to ask questions, and not be hurt, and so you don't have to look at yourself or your family or your nation. And you can live with the illusion of who is good and who is bad.' She says she was eight years old when she first heard of a Jew. 'I heard a boy next door call another boy a 'stupid Jew',' she says. 'I asked my mother, 'What is a Jew, and is it something bad?'' When she learned about the Holocaust, it literally made her retch. 'I was horrified by what Germans did to Jews,' she says. 'I was physically disgusted. And I was totally disgusted by even my own Germanness.' It is strange to hear things like this over coffee in a clean apartment in the Middle East. 'I didn't want to be German,' she says. 'And because this entered my mind so early, it became as natural as brushing my teeth.' So why did she convert? She grimaces. 'It isn't rational. We are talking about religion here.' But she says she ran away to Israel to convert when she was 25. And today, she berates herself for her immaturity in doing it. She was shocked by the racism in Israel. Towards her? 'Towards the Arabs,' she replies. 'I felt that I was being told that to be a good Jew, you had to hate Arabs.' So she stands at West Bank checkpoints to observe the behavior of Israeli soldiers towards Palestinians. 'It causes a lot of tension to come here and say the things that I say,' she says. So why does she say them? 'Because it would be very inconsistent to have had so much criticism of Germans who were terrible cowards when it was still possible to say something, and then to come here and not speak up for justice.' She is through with Israel. She says it is because of the triple whammy of otherness - German, leftwing, gay. A shrink would say that she came here to be wrong, I tell her. 'Don't think I haven't thought about it in those terms myself,' she replies. 'I had wanted to connect myself to a history I did not perceive as shameful. Now I am wondering if I will stay. I am more or less sure that I won't. Sometimes I feel I am not built for it, that I am not strong enough for this country.' She runs her hands through her hair briskly, and shakes her head. 'Sometimes I feel that just by existing I am always wrong here. But I cannot live with personal attacks now. I cannot bear it.' Later that day, I meet the man who brought me here to Israel, the man who started all this - the so-called Jewish Hitler. He is a professor at the Jewish studies faculty at one of the universities. I telephoned him, and to my surprise he answered. How could I ask: 'Are you a Hitler?' I told him I was writing a story about German converts to Judaism, and he said I could come over immediately. So I go to an apartment just around the corner from where the artist lives. It is a grimy white block, with a few scrubby bushes outside. I walk upstairs and a woman with the headscarf of all married orthodox Jewish women answers the door. She doesn't say anything, simply gestures for me to sit at a table in a room heaving with books. And then he comes in. Is this my Jewish Hitler? He is incredibly tall and slim, in a blinding yellow shirt, very animated, and his accent - an odd pulp of German, English and Hebrew - seems to zoom out of him. He is holding two pieces of paper. One is a family tree; the other is a printout of an account of the life of Alois Hitler Junior - Adolf Hitler's half-brother. 'I will tell you the whole story,' he says, 'on the condition that you do not print my name'. He places the first piece of paper in front of me, points at names, and begins a strange, almost incomprehensible account of the lives of Germans who died more than a century ago. At the end of each summary of a long finished life, he jabs his finger on the table and says, 'OK?' It only becomes clear what he is doing when I follow the tree down to a name I know - Alois Hitler. Alois Hitler had two sons who lived to maturity - Adolf (that Adolf) and Alois Junior. This half-brother of the F?hrer then produced an illegitimate son called Hans. 'OK?' he says. 'Hans married my grandmother Erna after she divorced my grandfather.' He immediately states that he hates the Hitler branch of his family. He becomes agitated. 'I have neither any blood nor DNA from Adolf and his family,' he insists. 'I was not socialised by that family.' He met Hans only once. The Hitlers came for tea when he was 12 years old. 'Hans was a very nice man,' he says. 'No passions, no brutality.' But Erna was thrilled to have married into the Hitler clan, and remained a Nazi until she died. 'I didn't know her,' he says of his grandmother. 'She wasn't part of my family.' The professor explains that his mother severed all connections with the Hitlers. As a teenager she was beaten for refusing to go to Hitler Youth dances, and when she gave birth to the professor - an illegitimate child she conceived during an affair with a married man - her mother and stepfather disowned her. He was raised in a series of rented rooms, while the Hitlers lived well. After the war, his grandmother changed her name, but her beliefs remained. He begins to tell me what happened to his mother during the war. She worked as a typist for the Wehrmacht in Poland and she saw dead Jews hanging in the town squares. 'She was a girl in the war,' he says, 'but I always appreciated that she told me the truth about it. We spoke frankly. I never heard that normal German lie you hear so often from that generation.' His voice rises and he impersonates them with a fierce whine: ''We didn't know, we just did our duty.'' And he thumps the table. 'My grandparents never understood what they had done,' he says. 'My mother understood.' When she came home after the Allied victory, she was denounced as a Nazi, and the Communists seized her flat. 'She became one of those German ladies who cleared up after all the bombing.' He stomps to the kitchen and comes back, thrusting two silver spoons at me. 'That is all that my mother brought home from the war. I keep them to honour her.' It was a brutal childhood: he barely saw his father, and his mother beat him - one time so severely that she couldn't go to work for three days because her fingers were too swollen to type. 'She was a fighter,' he says. 'It is not the nicest thing you can be.' Was she religious? He gives a deranged giggle. 'She had the religion of herself,' he says. His mother was entirely alone. 'Nobody helped anybody at that time,' he says. His father had another family - a real family: 'I saw my father very seldom and the times I saw him I was so proud to have a father that it was not the time to ask what he did in the war. He died when I was 19. So I never asked him what he did.' But he does know his father was a major in the Wehrmacht. So, barring a miracle, he killed people for Hitler. His journey towards Judaism was long. 'It was not a sudden light from heaven that came down.' When he was a teenager he met a girl who was interested in Judaism, and he read Mein Kampf. 'I was embarrassed when I read it,' he says. 'How could people be so stupid as to elect a person who was writing things like this? It's awful.' He blinks at me. 'I don't think you can really understand how awful it is if you don't read it in German. I put it away. But I keep it here.' Did he ever finish it? He scowls at me for the first and only time. 'No.' When the time came for him to be conscripted into the German army, he decided to take a theology degree, because he wanted to benefit from an ironic leftover from Nazism: Hitler promised the Pope in 1933 that he wouldn't conscript priests, and the law has never been repealed. 'I am a pacifist,' he says. 'You raise up an army if you think you have to use it.' As part of the degree, he was due to spend six weeks in Israel in the early 1970s. 'I felt at home. I was no longer living in a conflict. I didn't have to reject the older generation. And I thought I had met for the first time a nationality that at that point in history - today it is more problematic - still had good reasons to be proud of itself.' So he stayed. We go out on to the balcony to smoke. He really enjoys his cigarette; I can see he is a pleasure-savoring man. He does not have the heaviness of the other converts, who all seemed crushed by an invisible burden. Is it because he spoke to his mother about it all? I steel myself and ask: would he have become Jewish without the Holocaust? 'I think not,' he says. 'The sharp distinction between the generations that committed the crimes and the generation born after wouldn't exist. Non-Germans hardly understand that a whole generation checked out our teachers and asked, 'Where were you 20 years ago?'' And then, to my surprise, he calls his son - his Israeli son - a fascist. 'When I hear my own son speak - as I did last weekend - I sat like this,' and he does the Hitler salute. 'Two of my sons are chauvinists and one of them is even partially racist. I can't listen to fascistic discourse. I don't suffer that.' They talk about the Palestinians with contempt. 'Each time I hear it is another time too much. If the Holocaust and the Third Reich have really somehow shaped me, I am a sworn democrat. I believe that democracy has to prove itself by keeping the rights of its minorities.' I have been with this man for three hours, insistently asking why - why did you convert? Why? This stray branch of the Hitler family tree stares out at his dull suburban street at the heart of the Jewish state, puffs on his cigarette, and begins to talk about the images of the Holocaust that linger in his mind. 'I see that soldier trampling that child and in the end killing it, and I remember that kind of aggression. I remember the feeling of the child, too. I remember both. I could see my father or my grandfather really standing there.' And as he says this, his shoulders seem to relax. He is giving me my answer. 'And all I can say, Tanya,' he says from inside his little cloud of smoke, 'is that since I came to Israel, that feeling isn't there any more.' 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one _here_ (http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/) . Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080812/82965cd0/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Aug 12 22:32:44 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:32:44 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] MUST see video!! Message-ID: I had the good fortune to meet the people who put this video together. It's one of the most powerful ones I've EVER scene. It's graphic, but PLEASE watch it to the end.. Hanoch _Click here: YouTube - The Forgotten People_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MppIZTuP1P4) **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080812/cc87bb18/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Aug 13 02:32:14 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:32:14 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts In-Reply-To: <924542.29764.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <924542.29764.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200808130732.m7D7W2x1009172@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Tracy, No one, Ten Triber or otherwise, should take the Noahite oath before a Beit Din unless they truly understand and intend as a Noahite to seriously uphold the commandments and halacha, both of which extend beyond the simply "seven" main laws (as you so well delienate on your site). These oaths are taken, before Hashem, as is a conversion to Judaism oath is taken upon the mikveh process. The acceptance of the Sheva Mitzvot, per se, and confirmation of same before a Beit Din, accompanied by a period of living as a Ger Toshav or Ben/Bat Noach, will beyond question facilitate any future decision to apply for conversion to Judaism. Notice, I said "Judaism." Most Beit Dins, especially in Israel, do not look favorably on any immediate or swift determination by a Ger Toshav to convert to Judaism. The reason for this is of course they want to see some prolonged period of commitment and not just some transitory flight of fancy or worse, some masquerading as Christians trying to creep in with an agenda to convert Jews. Conversions are becoming more and more difficult in Israel due this requirement. Never the less, Bnei Noach are being increasingly advantageously positioned for greater access and favor in terms of rabbinical guidance and recognition. The development of Halacha, educational resources and Batei Din for Bnei Noach is a huge accomplishment and progress in our days, and it continues to grow in favor, acceptance and in public discussion in Israel. More and more rabbis are becoming open and educated and this will overflow to the lands of exile, particularly the West. The global Noahide Conference in Fort Lauderdale in June was a huge success. Keeping tabs on the rapidly growing http://www.noahidenations.com website is advisable for those contemplating Noachite conversion and / or wanting to know what is going on in that realm. They had added a host of other services and are really the premier source of rabbinically approved and guided Bnei Noach movement development. Noahide Nations as an organization has the approval, acceptance and direction of not only the Sanhedrin Project and its designated emissary, Roger Grattan, but also the full support of eminent rabbis. Admission as a Ten Triber into the spiritual commonwealth of Israel as it is defined and governed by Orthodox Judaism is not possible or even advisable at this time. Such desires for admissions are best kept to one's self. If any Ten Triber might contemplate of being a Ben / Bat Noach first, and then going for admission as a Ten Triber, it is NOT advisable and will NOT work. Such a person will have to go through "conversion to Judaism," and live in a Jewish community as a Jew. I think this is not a correct thing to do for anyone who wants to remain a "Ten Triber /Ephraimite." Doing otherwise is just not an honest thing to do. While the conviction of heart and soul within Ten Tribers cannot truly be appreciated by the rabbaim, much to the frustration of Ten Tribers, the rabbinic position accords with Talmud in that at the time of Moshiach he will identify the tribal belonging of each exile and return all those who have not previously awakened and returned. For the time being, it is best for Ten Tribers to NOT push for and demand official rabbinic recognition or admission into the spiritual commonwealth of Israel, but live as best they can, quietly conforming to the Covenant in their own communities and congregations / chavurot. It must be recognized by Ten Tribers, that the rabbis are strictly guided by halacha, which does not provide provisions for the Ten Tribes to return as Ten Tribers, because "descent" cannot be proven as it can be for some "lost" Jews. Even for them, if they cannot prove a matrilineal descent, it is best for them to go through an official halachic conversion to Judaism. Of course I am referring to Orthodox conversions, not others, because in other factions of Judaism practically anything goes for they are not bound by observance of the Torah and halacha. I hope this helps, Steve At 05:19 AM 8/12/2008, you wrote: >Steve, > >Is it advisable, helpful, or necessary, etc., etc., for the 10 >Tribers to take a Noachite Oath before a Jewish Beit Din? > >Tracy > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Tracy Osborne >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 2:35:18 PM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts > >Thanks for the kind words, Steve and Clyde. Thanks Marvin for >introducing this topic. > >Steve, I agree wholeheartedly. For some of us 10 Tribers, after >having been dealt with concerning issues going beyond the 7 Noachite >laws, along with an aversion to "The Pharisees/Rabbi's" teachings, >it takes a while to really see through these things. All of a >sudden, we realize we're 10 Tribers, and begin following additional >precepts (in our own way, I might add) and then, are told that these >commands are not for you, we can get the feeling that we're being >told to go to the back of the bus. Therefore, there is a resistance >by some to these categories. > >If I may suggest for further consideration and comment: > >An object lesson for the role of the 12 Tribes among the 70 Nations >is described in these verses from the Parasha Mas'ei: Num 33:9 >They set out from Marah and came to Elim. There were twelve springs >[12 Tribes] in Elim and seventy palm trees [70 Nations], so they >encamped there. >Our role was/is to be a priestly nation [12 Tribes] among all 70 >nations and be the source of "water" to lead the 70 nations back to HaShem. > >Another verse in the same Parasha, Numbers 35:15 These six cities >shall be a refuge, for > >#1) the children of Israel [In the Land], and for >#2) the stranger [Ger - Advanced Noachites dwelling in the Land with >Israel], and for >#3) the sojourner among you... [Toshav - Noachites visiting the Land >temporarily - Foreigners] > >The Levitical Cities can be seen as teaching centers for all of >these categories. And, they would serve as Welcome Centers, to >orient Foreigners to the basics of Our Nation during their visit. > >An additional object lesson, which may relate to the 7 Noachite >Laws, would be that of Elisha & Naaman in 2Kings 5:1-19. Notice the >"7" immersions as a symbol for the 7 Laws or Categories of Laws. >Naaman was converted to the G-d of Israel, without becoming an >Israelite. The Prophet said to him, "Go in Shalom". Notice, the >awkward position that this new convert was in as he went back to his >nation. Many of us find ourselves in similar situations also. We >need "wisdom from above" in manuvering in such circumstances as Naaman lived. > >In the categorization above, Naaman was > >#3) A Toshav. He could have been a lost triber and after returning >home, he might begin to have an inner urge to return to the Land to >live, and become >#2) A Ger. After a while, his heart might begin to desire to go all >the way and keep the Passover. He would then be circumcised, and become >#1) An Israelite. > >More to ask about, later... > >Love & Prayers, > >Tracy > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Steve Mathe >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:47:09 PM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts > >Tracy, > >You have an excellent exposition on the Noachite laws. Of course >they are places to start to turn /return to G-d for everyone. As >Marvin says, "... we have to get back to a place were we are at >least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide >code. Israel as a whole, both Judah and Ephraim as a first step >back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts." >It certainly is a place to start for all, for it is a beginning of >minimum obligations to basic directives by God for all >mankind. Alienated Israelites, gentiles of all sorts can begin >here. Of course Israelites can and need to go further, for after all >we left the Covenant and the priesthood nation of God. Never the >less, it can be a beginning for all, for it is the ideal "training >school" for all. We cannot start in the 12th, 10th, or even the >fifth grade when we have not been in school at all. We must start >in "the beginning of some observance" and add as we make progress in >those that we started earlier. The Lubavitcher Rebbe recommended, >that secular and not observant Jews of all stripes just "start with >one mitzvah at a time." I think it is wise advice. > >I know that some rabbis who know about the Ten Tribes, recommend >that they come back first as Noachites. This only makes sense to >them, since according to halacha in the Talmud, they are regarded as >gentiles. Truly, the Ten Tribes were cursed out of their own >mouths. They wanted to be like the gentiles, and so God took away >their identity totally for 2700 years and let them live as gentiles >till their sentence is up at the end of days. > >Of course the Ten Tribes are obligated to eventually return to the >Covenant and all its obligations. No, I did not say that Ten Tribers >have to become "Jewish." Yet, they are obligated to start moving out >of the gentile ways of being in the world" and they can learn a lot >from Jews. This process is already going on among the pioneer >returnees at their own particular pace because they are listening to >G-d's call to them in the Torah and the Prophets . It is an >individual matter for individuals and local congregations to find >their way back home. Yes, a returnee / turnee needs to stop eating >"blutwurst" immediately. It is a place to start. Later, they can >stop eating pork, and later they may want to eat kosher. It is a >sensible progression. Noachites will stop with the 7 laws. Ten >Tribers will go further. We will all be friends. > >Steve > >"Only prayer, torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." > >Ps.: > >Those who had revelations, PRs and dreams about returning to >observance, please let the list know. We need to let everyone know >what God wants of us returnees in the matte of observance. > > >At 05:56 AM 8/11/2008, you wrote: >>Hello Marvin, >> >>I have a chapter in my book, on this subject, that I would like to >>get your thoughts about. >> >>http://www.onhigh.org/twosticks7.htm >> >>Love & Prayers, >> >>Tracy >> >>----- Original Message ---- >>From: mhyde >>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:20:07 AM >>Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts >> >>Ross and others, >> >> >> >>I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as >>Ross was teaching. As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, >>2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something. I have always had a >>question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the >>nations look to Zion and the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and >>leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to >>their religion. Remember it is us who is looking to them and >>saying , "teach us for we know that God is with you". Some >>commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , is the gate at the >>outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and >>others say this is the Eastern gate. >> >> >> >>At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. Almost all of the commandments >>are mentioned, representive of both tablets. What I see here is >>that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a >>minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code. Israel as >>a whole, both Judea and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at >>a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts. >> >> >> >>Any thoughts or comments? >> >> >> >>Shalom, >> >>marvin >> >>_______________________________________________ > > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080813/a558ee02/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Wed Aug 13 07:12:50 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 08:12:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts In-Reply-To: References: <002201c8fba4$3748b7e0$0400a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <009f01c8fd3d$e97f8520$0400a8c0@marvin> Why do the nations suddenly stream up to Zion? If we look at Zechariah 2 it would seem that just as Psa. 102 13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come. ... So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory. 16 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. This same language of "glory and defense" is found in Isa 4:5 , alluding to the pillar of cloud and fire which defended and enlightened Israel in the desert. Zec 8: 6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. As per Isa. 11:11-12. It seems to me form this text in Zechariah that God's glory will appear, the pillar of fire and the cloud will appear and this Glory that Moses got a glimpse of, the whole world with get to see. This happens at an appointed time and THEN the nations start coming up to joined themselves to the God of Israel. Also, in the text of Zechariah there seem to be two(2) speakers. One being YHVH and the other his servant, whom most would identify with Moshaich. As I read through this again, I get the sense that YHVH will reveal himself again as in the wilderness and also their will be this servant figure present also. Vs. 9 speaks of the "shaking of the hand" at the nations as in Isa.11:15, 19:16, this will get peoples attention. Verse 11 speaks of "many nations shall joined to the Lord in that day". Coming from a christian background were the world and all world / future / events happen with the "christian church" at the center, I am being to think the more correct course of events will be that Judea / Israel will be at the center and the rest of the world will be standing on the outside looking on.. Just like when God brought the children home the first time when he brought them out of Egypt. Most religious people will look for the supernatural events. But, what if Moshiach just quietly slips in to town riding on a donkey? What if he works quietly behind the scenes until he slowly becomes center stage? We often read the text of the earth splitting, the heavens shaking and the "every eye shall behold" and want to think of some super natural earth shaking event were we all fall on our face's and turned to God. But, from these scriptures and others it seems to indicate a process and not and event that happens in a milli-second. When God spoke to Moses Exo. 3, telling him to go get the people of Israel his children, Moses was not worried about Pharaoh letting them go! Moses was worried that the children of Israel would not believe him and then willingly follow him out. Moses was told to go to the elders of Israel, he pleaded his case there first; then with the elders of Israel he went before the King of Egypt. V.29 Moses and Aaron gather together the elders of Israel. V.30 Moses spoke all the words and did all the signs. V31 The people (AM) believed. Therefore, my I suggest that the "glory of YHVH" and Moshiach will be in Israel / Judea before the world is made aware of it? Shalom, Marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:38 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts I agree and I expand on this in the new version of Restoring Abrahamic Faith. It seems to me the "Seven" are minimal and a good "identification" marker vis-a-vis Judaism. For one to say, "I just know in my heart" or because I am from the NW Celtic peoples, that I am of the "tribes," might wash if someone has read the research of people like Hulley, but in general it can just sound nutty. I often say, "Noahide" is not my definition of myself, but it is a good Jewish definition of someone who has my God/Torah/Israel orientation and who is not a halachically Jewish. I find it most functional and I have no objection to Judaism "defining itself." I think they had no choice given the 2000 years of Exile. But even more interesting the question you touch on--what will cause the attraction, of Zechariah 2 & 8; Isaiah 2, and Jeremiah 7, and many other passages. WHY do the nations suddenly stream up to Zion. I have my ideas, but wonder if anyone else wants to jump in here... James On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:20 AM, mhyde wrote: Ross and others, I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross was teaching. As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something. I have always had a question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to Zionand the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to their religion. Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying , "teach us for we know that God is with you". Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , is the gate at the outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this is the Eastern gate. At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. Almost all of the commandments are mentioned, representive of both tablets. What I see here is that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code. Israel as a whole, bothJudea and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts. Any thoughts or comments? Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080813/eca0e449/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Aug 13 08:59:12 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:59:12 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] March thru the Arch Message-ID: This was from a Christian magazine, Charisma - and covers one of the major events of the recent MIA (Messianic Israel Alliance) convention. I wasn't there at the time, I was speaking to a group of people, and missed it! Another big event was a communal prayer to G-d to forgive the Ephramites for their sins which led to exile, and not helping Judah... Hanoch Christians, Jews March in Streets of St. Louis ?March Through the Arch? united various ethnic and religious groups in prayer for Israel. [08.12.08] Urging Christians and Jews to ?embrace their common ancestry,? a pro-Israel group organized a march in downtown St. Louis Sunday, during which nearly 1,000 people walked several blocks to the Mississippi River to pray for an hour under the city?s famous Gateway Arch monument. Organizers of the ?March Through the Arch? called the event a ?religious and political activist demonstration? that stressed the solidarity of the international Judeo-Christian community with the nation and people of Israel. ?Christians used to feel separated from Jews,? said Angus Wootten, founder of the Tennessee-based Messianic Israel Alliance, which sponsored the event. ? [But] today, millions of Christians have embraced their identity as brothers to the Jews and part of Israel.? Some local Jews expressed caution concerning the purposes of the event, since international Jewish-Christian relations have historically been strained over matters such as Christian proselytizing. But organizers said the agenda of the march was purely prayer. ?We just wanted to get everybody to stand and support Israel together and focus on what we have in common rather than what divides us,? John Diffenderfer, Messianic Israel Alliance spokesman, told Charisma. ?People from both Jewish and Christian backgrounds [came],? he said. ?But it was primarily ? an ecumenical event. We weren?t out to convert anybody.? Instead, Diffenderfer said the rally consisted of prayers of repentance over the divisions that have existed among various ethnic groups through the years, as well as between Jews and Christians. He said that representatives of the African-American, Native American and Caucasian communities participated in praying as well as Jews and Christians from as far away as South Africa, Australia and Mexico. ?We repented for the generations and for all that has gone wrong over the centuries?the last 2,000 years, really,? Diffenderfer said. ?We humbled ourselves so that ? God [could] provide unity.? According to the group?s founder, the location and direction of the march also held special significance. ?The arch is symbolic in that it signified the westward expansion of civilization,? Wootten said. ?Biblical prophecy states that the people of God will return to the land of Israel from the West. We [marched] east, toward Israel and through the Gateway Arch, to indicate our impending return.? ?Paul Steven Ghiringhelli **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080813/3cca7ac2/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 09:06:39 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:06:39 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts In-Reply-To: <009f01c8fd3d$e97f8520$0400a8c0@marvin> References: <002201c8fba4$3748b7e0$0400a8c0@marvin> <009f01c8fd3d$e97f8520$0400a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <9BB2EF07-58F4-4B5D-9EC8-55673F3BFF58@earthlink.net> Marvin, I think you are right on with this reading of the Prophets though I am not sure the "moshiach" is the main one awaited, but rather the Prophet like Moses, whom Zechariah calls the "Adon" of the earth, before whom the two messiahs stand. Indeed, they are his assistants. He is the one who anoints but is not himself anointed--by any human at least. As you know, we have discussed this for many years, the three figures, with the middle one representing HaShem directly, as Moses did. That seems to be the clear meaning of Zechariah 2:10-13 [vs in Hebrew text are 2:14-17], and as you note, HaShem SENDS this one, who speaks here in the 1st person. This language is very strange and was pointed out by David Horowitz many times, and it is the same "style" of reference we find with Moses, e.g. Deut 29:1-5 (note carefully the pronouns, with Moses as speaker). The one who speaks "mouth to mouth" with HaShem is center stage, assisted by his two anointed ones. Both the Christian and the Jewish exclusive focus on the Davidic figure puts this out of balance. You will remember I cover this extensively in Restoring Abrahamic Faith, and the new edition will go into it even more clearly. Zechariah is the key text, from start to finish. I think only in Zech 8-14 do you get some sense of the "chronology" of things, in terms of how they unfold. All eyes turn to Jerusalem. I also think you are correct to see that this is not just bells and whistles and cosmic display. It will come in history, just as did the Exodus, and only gradually will various peoples understand. In other words, it will be covered by CNN, so to speak... Take care, James On Aug 13, 2008, at 8:12 AM, mhyde wrote: > Why do the nations suddenly stream up to Zion? If we look at > Zechariah 2 it would seem that just as Psa. 102 13 Thou shalt > arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, > the set time, is come. ??? So the heathen shall fear the name of > the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory. 16 When the LORD > shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. This same > language of "glory and defense" is found in Isa 4:5, alluding to > the pillar of cloud and fire which defended and enlightened Israel > in the desert. Zec 8: 6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be > marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, > should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. > 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from > the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring > them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall > be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in > righteousness. As per Isa. 11:11-12. > > > It seems to me form this text in Zechariah that God?s glory will > appear, the pillar of fire and the cloud will appear and this Glory > that Moses got a glimpse of, the whole world with get to see. This > happens at an appointed time and THEN the nations start coming up to > joined themselves to the God of Israel. > > Also, in the text of Zechariah there seem to be two(2) speakers. > One being YHVH and the other his servant, whom most would identify > with Moshaich. As I read through this again, I get the sense that > YHVH will reveal himself again as in the wilderness and also their > will be this servant figure present also. Vs. 9 speaks of the > ?shaking of the hand? at the nations as in Isa.11:15, 19:16, this > will get peoples attention. Verse 11 speaks of ?many nations shall > joined to the Lord in that day?. > > Coming from a christian background were the world and all world / > future / events happen with the ?christian church? at the center, I > am being to think the more correct course of events will be that > Judea / Israel will be at the center and the rest of the world will > be standing on the outside looking on?. Just like when God brought > the children home the first time when he brought them out of Egypt. > Most religious people will look for the supernatural events. But, > what if Moshiach just quietly slips in to town riding on a donkey? > What if he works quietly behind the scenes until he slowly becomes > center stage? We often read the text of the earth splitting, the > heavens shaking and the ?every eye shall behold? and want to think > of some super natural earth shaking event were we all fall on our > face?s and turned to God. But, from these scriptures and others it > seems to indicate a process and not and event that happens in a > milli-second. > > When God spoke to Moses Exo. 3, telling him to go get the people of > Israel his children, Moses was not worried about Pharaoh letting > them go! Moses was worried that the children of Israel would not > believe him and then willingly follow him out. Moses was told to go > to the elders of Israel, he pleaded his case there first; then with > the elders of Israel he went before the King of Egypt. V.29 Moses > and Aaron gather together the elders of Israel. V.30 Moses spoke > all the words and did all the signs. V31 The people (AM) believed. > > Therefore, my I suggest that the ?glory of YHVH? and Moshiach will > be in Israel / Judea before the world is made aware of it? > > Shalom, > Marvin > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of James Tabor > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:38 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts > > I agree and I expand on this in the new version of Restoring > Abrahamic Faith. > > It seems to me the "Seven" are minimal and a good "identification" > marker vis-a-vis Judaism. For one to say, "I just know in my heart" > or because I am from the NW Celtic peoples, that I am of the > "tribes," might wash if someone has read the research of people like > Hulley, but in general it can just sound nutty. I often say, > "Noahide" is not my definition of myself, but it is a good Jewish > definition of someone who has my God/Torah/Israel orientation and > who is not a halachically Jewish. I find it most functional and I > have no objection to Judaism "defining itself." I think they had no > choice given the 2000 years of Exile. > > But even more interesting the question you touch on--what will cause > the attraction, of Zechariah 2 & 8; Isaiah 2, and Jeremiah 7, and > many other passages. WHY do the nations suddenly stream up to Zion. > I have my ideas, but wonder if anyone else wants to jump in here... > > James > > > On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:20 AM, mhyde wrote: > > > Ross and others, > > I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as > Ross was teaching. As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, > 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something. I have always had a > question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the > nations look to Zionand the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and > leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to > their religion. Remember it is us who is looking to them and > saying , ?teach us for we know that God is with you?. Some > commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , is the gate at the > outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and > others say this is the Eastern gate. > > At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. Almost all of the commandments > are mentioned, representive of both tablets. What I see here is > that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a > minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code. Israel as a > whole, bothJudea and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a > minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts. > > Any thoughts or comments? > > Shalom, > marvin > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080813/dbea1167/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 14 06:21:08 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:21:08 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] THIS is appropriate.. Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 13 Av 5768 August 14, 2008 Shalom For thus said Hashem: Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout at the head of the nations; declare, praise, and say: 'O L-rd, save Your people, the remnant of Israel.' Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the uttermost parts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and the one in labor with child together; a great company shall they return. Jeremiah 31:7-8 **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080814/139499f6/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 16:27:27 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Message-ID: <519575.92799.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom James & Marvin, Very interesting conversation. I wonder if this is what?this mother was thinking of when she was?making her request? Mat 20:20Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.Mat 20:21And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. Mat 20:22 Mat 20:23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to themfor whom it is prepared of my Father.So, seemingly, the center position is taken (the one like unto Moses), that is, while we can wonder about the two assistants. But?Yeshua answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. I'll probably be watching FOX rather than CNN, but, I'm sure they'll all be carrying this live - that is, if New York is still standing. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:06:39 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Marvin, I think you are right on with this reading of the Prophets though I am not sure the "moshiach" is the main one awaited, but rather the Prophet like Moses, whom Zechariah calls the "Adon" of the earth, before whom the two messiahs stand. Indeed, they are his assistants. He is the one who anoints but is not himself anointed--by any human at least. As you know, we have discussed this for many years, the three figures, with the middle one representing HaShem directly, as Moses did.? That seems to be the clear meaning of Zechariah 2:10-13 [vs in Hebrew text are 2:14-17], and as you note, HaShem SENDS this one, who speaks here in the 1st person. This language is very strange and was pointed out by David Horowitz many times, and it is the same "style" of reference we find with Moses, e.g. Deut 29:1-5 (note carefully the pronouns, with Moses as speaker). The one who speaks "mouth to mouth" with HaShem is center stage, assisted by his two anointed ones. Both the Christian and the Jewish exclusive focus on the Davidic figure puts this out of balance. You will remember I cover this extensively in Restoring Abrahamic Faith, and the new edition will go into it even more clearly. Zechariah is the key text, from start to finish. I think only in Zech 8-14 do you get some sense of the "chronology" of things, in terms of how they unfold. All eyes turn to Jerusalem. I also think you are correct to see that this is not just bells and whistles and cosmic display. It will come in history, just as did the Exodus, and only gradually will various peoples understand. In other words, it will be covered by CNN, so to speak... Take care, James On Aug 13, 2008, at 8:12 AM, mhyde wrote: Why do the nations suddenly stream up to? Zion ??? If we look at Zechariah 2 it would seem that just as Psa. 102 ?13?Thou shalt arise,?and?have mercy upon? Zion : for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.???????So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.?16?When the LORD shall build up? Zion , he shall appear in his glory. ?This same language of "glory and defense" is found in?Isa 4:5, ?alluding to the pillar of cloud and fire which defended and enlightened? Israel?in the desert. ?Zec 8:?6?Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.?7?Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;?8?And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of? Jerusalem : and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. As per Isa. 11:11-12. ? ? It seems to me form this text in Zechariah that God?s glory will appear, the pillar of fire and the cloud will appear and this Glory that Moses got a glimpse of, the whole world with get to see. This happens at an appointed time and THEN the nations start coming up to joined themselves to the God of Israel. ? ?Also, in the text of Zechariah there seem to be two(2) speakers. One being YHVH and the other his servant, whom most would identify with Moshaich.?? As I read through this again, ?I get the sense that YHVH will reveal himself again as in the wilderness and also their will be this servant figure present also.? Vs. 9 speaks of the ?shaking of the hand? at the nations as in Isa.11:15, 19:16, this will get peoples attention. Verse 11 speaks of ?many nations shall joined to the Lord in that day?.? ? Coming from a christian background were the world and all world / future / events happen with the ?christian church? at the center, I am being to think the more correct course of events will be that Judea / Israel will be at the center and the rest of the world will be standing on the outside looking on?.? Just like when God brought the children home the first time when he brought them out of? Egypt .? Most religious people will look for the supernatural events.? But, what if Moshiach just quietly slips in to town riding on a donkey?? What if he works quietly behind the scenes until he slowly becomes center stage? ??We often read the text of the earth splitting, the heavens shaking and the ?every eye shall behold? and want to think of some super natural earth shaking event were we all fall on our face?s and turned to God.? But, from these scriptures and others it seems to indicate a process and ?not and event that happens in a milli-second. ? When God spoke to Moses Exo. 3, telling him to go get the people of? Israel?his children, Moses was not worried about Pharaoh letting them go! Moses was worried that the children ?of? Israel?would not believe him and then willingly follow him out.? Moses was told to go to the elders of? Israel , he pleaded his case there first; then with the elders of? Israel?he went before the King of Egypt. V.29 Moses and Aaron gather together the elders of? Israel .? V.30 Moses spoke all the words and did all the signs. V31 The people (AM) believed. ? Therefore, my I suggest that the ?glory of YHVH? and Moshiach will be in? Israel?/? Judea?before the world is made aware of it? ? Shalom, Marvin ? ? ________________________________ From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]?On Behalf Of?James Tabor Sent:?Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:38 PM To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts ? I agree and I expand on this in the new version of?Restoring Abrahamic Faith.? ? It seems to me the "Seven" are minimal and a good "identification" marker vis-a-vis Judaism. For one to say, "I just know in my heart" or because I am from the NW Celtic peoples, that I am of the "tribes," might wash if someone has read the research of people like Hulley, but in general it can just sound nutty. I often say, "Noahide" is not my definition of myself, but it is a good Jewish definition of someone who has my God/Torah/Israel orientation and who is not a halachically Jewish. I find it most functional and I have no objection to Judaism "defining itself." I think they had no choice given the 2000 years of Exile.? ? But even more interesting the question you touch on--what will cause the attraction, of Zechariah 2 & 8; Isaiah 2, and Jeremiah 7, and many other passages. WHY do the nations suddenly stream up to? Zion . ?I have my ideas, but wonder if anyone else wants to jump in here... ? James ? ? On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:20 AM, mhyde wrote: Ross and others, ? I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross was teaching.?? As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something.??? I have always had a question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to? Zionand the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to their religion.? Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying , ?teach us for we know that God is with you?.? Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , ?is the gate at the outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this is the Eastern gate. ? At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. ?Almost all of the commandments are mentioned, representive of both tablets.?? What I see here is that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code.?? Israel?as a whole, both Judea?and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts.?? ? Any thoughts or comments? ? Shalom, marvin?? _______________________________________________ ?_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080814/162fe121/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Thu Aug 14 16:49:35 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:49:35 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Nachamu Message-ID: <200808142149.m7ELnYQ5003759@mail2514.carrierzone.com> Friends, Here is an excerpt from Rabbi Greenbaum's website for this week; It behooves us to read ahead with anticipation for the Torah and haftara portions, for the "good news" of consolation and coming reconciliation. It is interesting to note this anniversary of the reconciliation with the Tribe of Benjamin. I have always speculated and hoped, that perhaps the Tribe of Benjamin will serve in some kind of role in the reconciliation of the Tribes, since Benjamin ended up pretty much split between the two Houses. Though most of them may have remained with Yehudah, some of their cities were taken captive by the Assyrians. Maybe Benjaminites will recognize each other more readily than those of other tribes. For those of who may not know, rabbi Greenbaum conducts live audio classes from Jerusalem Sundays where you can participate via keyboard. You want to check his site for schedule in your time zone. http://www.azamra.org Am not insinuating here that rabbinic sources are the only ones to listen to. I realize that we do not have "one single source for teachings" for Ephraim. We have but one, that is G-d. However, there are ones we can learn a lot form, and this rabbi surely has a lot, and most importantly a loving attitude that is rare and exceptional. Give it a listen. I think we have a lot of road in front of us, but we can rejoice with great anticipation that the good news in the seven haftarot will surely come to pass. Let us ask God to prepare us, and to inform us about what we need to do to prepare ourselves for the road ahead. May you be all helped and comforted in your situations, and may you all be readied by the Ruach for what we must do. Steve **************************************** Friday night-Saturday 15-16 August / 15 Av Shabbat NACHAMU, Parshat VE-ETCHANAN Torah reading: Deuteronomy 3:23-7:11; Haftara: Isaiah 40:1?26, "Comfort ye (nachamu), my people...", first of the Seven Haftarot of Consolation read between Tisha BeAv and Rosh Hashanah. The Fifteen of Av (Tu B'Av) is one of the holiest, albeit hidden, festivals of the Torah calendar, marking the day when death ceased for the generation of the wilderness and also the reconciliation of the Tribes of Israel with the tribe of Benjamin (Judges 21:19; Ta'anit 30b). Today is particularly propitious for prayers for one's Zivvug -- marriage partner. On Saturday night, after the end of Shabbat Nachamu -- announcing the coming redemption -- it is customary for those in the environs of Haifa, Israel to visit the Cave of Elijah on Mount Carmel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080814/ea3b71ea/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Thu Aug 14 18:06:27 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:06:27 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] New version of Confession Prayer Message-ID: <200808142306.m7EN6QaQ011108@mail104c25.carrierzone.com> Friends, I have a new version of the Confession Prayer up at http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Prayer/Confession%20Prayers%20VI.pdf. It is long, but then, our sins are "long." Am thankful to those who have contributed suggestions to it. It seems that I am always adding a reference or a concept to it here and there. It will do for now, till further notice. I do suggest it to be used by individuals, families, chavurot/fellowhsips, congregations and at conferences. I stuck to the King James language and lines from it, so most concepts can be referenced with a Scripture quotations. I did this so, (except purposefully in a few salient places to make a point), because it is so part and parcel of our collective unconscious as English speaking peoples and thus it can speak from our souls. Steve From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Aug 16 11:52:06 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:52:06 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM! Message-ID: Some of you may be aware of a rabbinic tradition that today, the 15 of Av is considered to be a day when things turn around and take an 'upturn' for the better as we come out of the month of Tammuz and are now past the 9th of AV. I think it significant that it marks the beginning of the counting of the seven Haftarah's of Consolation leading to Rosh HaShannah, Sukkoth and Yom Kippur! Here is another significant "seven." Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsh points out that there is a definite progression in these readings which I find both interesting and moving. HAFTARAH VAETHANAN (Isaiah 40:1-28)- This is the first of "The Seven Haftaroth of Consolation" that are read from the Sabbath after the Fast of the Ninth of Av until the Sabbath preceeding Rosh Hashannah. HaShem commands the prophet to console the people of Israel. HAFTARAH EKEV (Isaiah 49:14-51:3) This is the second of "The is the second of "The Seven Haftaroth of Consolation" Israel complains " HaShem has for forsaken me" because He commanded the prophets to console His people instead of consoling them Himself. HAFTARAH RE'EH (Isaiah 54: 11-55:5) The prophet reports to HaShem that Israel is not yet consoled. HAFARAH SHOFTIM (Isaiah 51:12-52:12) This is "The Fourth Haftarah of Consolation" Here, HaShem Himself consoles Israel HAFTARAH KI THETZE (Isaiah 54: 1-10) This is "The Fifth Haftarah of Consolation" Since HaShem is consoling Israel, He urges her to rejoice HAFTARAH KI THAVO (Isaiah 60) This is "The Sixth Haftarah of Consolation" HaShem urges Israel to arise and shine for His light has shone upon them HAFTARAH NITZAVIM (Isaiah 61:10-63:9) This is the last of "The Seven Haftarah of Consolation" Israel replies: "I will rejoice with HaShem." Yes, may this "upward turn" be actualized in the personal circumstances and on a broader scale as well, for our entire little band and all who love HaShem and Torah as we seek Him with all our hearts, all our souls and all our strength.. Love & Shabbat Shalom all! Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080816/a9526334/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 16 15:26:09 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:26:09 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request Message-ID: <081620082026.429.48A737E10006F75E000001AD22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> All, The e-mail below pertains to my great-nephew and his grave medical condition. Please ask YHVH to intervene according to His perfect will and purpose. Thank you, Glenn Keith (my brother in CA) called a while ago. They had done an MRI on Ezra (my great-nephew) this morning and he had had a stroke, but they found a tumor at the base of his spine. The drs. give him a few days to a month. Chris saw him this morning and thought he seemed better and coherent. Micah (my nephew) hadn't told Ezra yet about the results of the MRI. I guess they don't think there is anything they can do for him, but we will be praying God will heal him. Naturally Keith and Chris (my sister-in-law) are very upset. Love,Mom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080816/73838a8e/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Aug 16 15:52:35 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 15:52:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request In-Reply-To: <081620082026.429.48A737E10006F75E000001AD22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: <2CBE1B3F9D6B46E28A50AF54D4EC91F9@bettygivin> Glenn, I already had on my tallit as I was studying and reading today.and just now prayed the Aaronic Benediction over Ezra and his family asked that HaShem send His angels to surround him and that HaShem's Presence to be in that hospital room and reach out to all who love Ezra.may He provide His perfect comfort and healing and may His Presence be strongly felt and recognized as His perfect will is accomplished. Please keep us updated, Glenn and thank you for letting us know so that we could have the opportunity to pray. I will continue praying. Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:26 PM To: Levi Yisrael; Ross Nichols; john mccrory; Chris Maskew; Omkar; constancema84; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; Andy; Travis Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request All, The e-mail below pertains to my great-nephew and his grave medical condition. Please ask YHVH to intervene according to His perfect will and purpose. Thank you, Glenn Keith (my brother in CA) called a while ago. They had done an MRI on Ezra (my great-nephew) this morning and he had had a stroke, but they found a tumor at the base of his spine. The drs. give him a few days to a month. Chris saw him this morning and thought he seemed better and coherent. Micah (my nephew) hadn't told Ezra yet about the results of the MRI. I guess they don't think there is anything they can do for him, but we will be praying God will heal him. Naturally Keith and Chris (my sister-in-law) are very upset. Love,Mom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080816/45cc6a2c/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 16 16:05:01 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:05:01 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request In-Reply-To: <081620082026.429.48A737E10006F75E000001AD22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <081620082026.429.48A737E10006F75E000001AD22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: <1638497973-1218920771-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2038344118-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Got it man. John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:26:09 To: Levi Yisrael; Ross Nichols; john mccrory; Chris Maskew; Omkar; constancema84; ; Andy; Travis Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request _______________________________________________ From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Aug 16 16:58:57 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 07:58:57 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request] Message-ID: <48A74DA1.6070305@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080817/42a56733/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:26:09 +0000 Size: 7554 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080817/42a56733/attachment.eml From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Aug 16 21:07:25 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 22:07:25 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request Message-ID: May HaShem grant Ezra a Refuah Shlema - a complete and total recovery. He is in my prayers. Hanoch In a message dated 8/16/2008 4:26:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, chattertonw at bellsouth.net writes: All, The e-mail below pertains to my great-nephew and his grave medical condition. Please ask YHVH to intervene according to His perfect will and purpose. Thank you, Glenn Keith (my brother in CA) called a while ago. They had done an MRI on Ezra (my great-nephew) this morning and he had had a stroke, but they found a tumor at the base of his spine. The drs. give him a few days to a month. Chris saw him this morning and thought he seemed better and coherent. Micah (my nephew) hadn't told Ezra yet about the results of the MRI. I guess they don't think there is anything they can do for him, but we will be praying God will heal him. Naturally Keith and Chris (my sister-in-law) are very upset. Love,Mom _______________________________________________ **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080816/b797489a/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sat Aug 16 23:11:07 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:11:07 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request In-Reply-To: <081620082026.429.48A737E10006F75E000001AD22243322829B0A02D 2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <081620082026.429.48A737E10006F75E000001AD22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: <200808170411.m7H4B9IP029636@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Glenn We are asking Hashem to extend His mercies to Ezra and His consolation to his parents and all involved. Steve At 01:26 PM 8/16/2008, you wrote: >All, > >The e-mail below pertains to my great-nephew and his grave medical >condition. Please ask YHVH to intervene according to His perfect >will and purpose. > >Thank you, > >Glenn > >Keith (my brother in CA) called a while ago. They had done an MRI >on Ezra (my great-nephew) this morning and he had had a stroke, but >they found a tumor at the base of his spine. The drs. give him a >few days to a month. Chris saw him this morning and thought he >seemed better and coherent. Micah (my nephew) hadn't told Ezra yet >about the results of the MRI. I guess they don't think there is >anything they can do for him, but we will be praying God will heal >him. Naturally Keith and Chris (my sister-in-law) are very upset. >Love,Mom > > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080816/cccdb799/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 00:10:27 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 01:10:27 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request In-Reply-To: <081620082026.429.48A737E10006F75E000001AD22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <081620082026.429.48A737E10006F75E000001AD22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: Am praying for Ezra and all his loved ones. May HaSHem touch him, and satisfy him with long life. Pat From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:26 PM To: Levi Yisrael ; Ross Nichols ; john mccrory ; Chris Maskew ; Omkar ; constancema84 ; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org ; Andy ; Travis Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request All, The e-mail below pertains to my great-nephew and his grave medical condition. Please ask YHVH to intervene according to His perfect will and purpose. Thank you, Glenn Keith (my brother in CA) called a while ago. They had done an MRI on Ezra (my great-nephew) this morning and he had had a stroke, but they found a tumor at the base of his spine. The drs. give him a few days to a month. Chris saw him this morning and thought he seemed better and coherent. Micah (my nephew) hadn't told Ezra yet about the results of the MRI. I guess they don't think there is anything they can do for him, but we will be praying God will heal him. Naturally Keith and Chris (my sister-in-law) are very upset. Love,Mom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080817/16ae0f66/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Aug 17 01:28:18 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 23:28:18 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Nachamu is a blast! Message-ID: <200808170628.m7H6SHXQ007673@mail124c25.carrierzone.com> Hey Gang, This Shabbat's reading, VaEtchanan and its haftara readings in Isa. were incredibly interesting and relevant to Ephraim. The prophecies about the regathering of the "sheep" the warning of and charge against Israel's idolatry, the order to " learn" i.e. seek knowledge of HaShem, the mitzvot, chukim and mishpatim, the pointing out that there is only ONE God, the coming "iron furnace," what we were told to do and did not do, and ended up not in life but in death, HaShem speaking to us "to hear"as Yaakov does in Gen. 49:1-2, re the last days, etc... Amazing!! Any comments from what you have learned? Anyone? Steve From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sun Aug 17 01:39:55 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 02:39:55 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Nachamu is a blast! Message-ID: In a message dated 8/17/2008 1:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, eliasaph at uniteourheart.com writes: Any comments from what you have learned? Anyone? I love this torah reading Steve! I will have some comments, but I will share them live on Sunday Shul! Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080817/0b457758/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 11:38:55 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request Message-ID: <840652.53532.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Glenn, Our prayers are with all concerned here. Tracy & Lynn ----- Original Message ---- From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" To: Levi Yisrael ; Ross Nichols ; john mccrory ; Chris Maskew ; Omkar ; constancema84 ; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; Andy ; Travis Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:26:09 PM Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request All, ? The e-mail below pertains to my great-nephew and his grave medical condition. Please ask YHVH to intervene according to His perfect will and purpose. ? Thank you, ? Glenn ? Keith (my brother in CA) called a while ago.? They had done an MRI on Ezra (my great-nephew) this morning and he had had a stroke, but they found a tumor at the base of his spine.? The drs. give him a few days to a month.? Chris saw him this morning and thought he seemed better and coherent.? Micah (my nephew) hadn't told Ezra yet about the results of the MRI.? I guess they don't think there is anything they can do for him, but we will be praying God will heal him.? Naturally Keith and Chris (my sister-in-law) are very upset. Love,Mom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080817/f6a3bec4/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sun Aug 17 14:30:20 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:30:20 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Tonight's Sunday Shul Message-ID: I want to encourage all of you to take the time to listen to Sunday Shul this week. I feel incredibly stirred and am excited about tonight's class. I will be teaching live at 7:00 P.M. central, or you can download the podcast at your convenience. I usually have it up by 10:00 P.M. central. I love the idea of being able to teach the word of God live every week. I consider it the greatest honor and am thankful that Brian has made all of this possible. The local group has dwindled over the past year as my teachings have taken a more "Hebraic and Biblical" turn, but I continue to be inspired at the people who continue to find these classes through the miracle of our modern age. If your schedule allows, I would love to have you join me at the Synagogue without walls for a class that I feel is very important for the people of our planet. I wish all of you a wonderful and peaceful week as we enter the 7 weeks of consolation. Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080817/91e9f8f2/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 17 14:40:30 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:40:30 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: BETTY/COMPUTER CRASH In-Reply-To: <887A20BEE6DA4A46B280A46E877C0AF3@givin1> References: <887A20BEE6DA4A46B280A46E877C0AF3@givin1> Message-ID: <8CACEB83DBB8349-16E8-2391@mblk-d43.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Roger Givin To: youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:05 pm Subject: BETTY/COMPUTER CRASH Hanoch, I will be off line for awhile.? My computer crashed yesterday, so I am writing from Roger?s computer and using his email.? Will you please either forward this to the dialogue list, as I do not have the email address in Roger?s computer. ? If you or anyone needs to get in touch with me, you can use Roger?s address.? Thank you, and ?I hope things are going well for you. ? Shavua tov,? ? Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080817/f3c60646/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 17 14:47:20 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:47:20 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject) Message-ID: <8CACEB93258EF05-16E8-23D0@mblk-d43.sysops.aol.com> Column one: Georgia, Israel and the nature of man August 15, 2008 Caroline Glick, THE JERUSALEM POST In their statements Wednesday on Russia's invasion of Georgia, both US President George W. Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice openly acknowledged that Russia is the aggressor in the war and that the US stands by Georgia. This is all very nice and well. But what does the fact that it took the US a full five days to issue a clear statement against Russian aggression tell us about the US? What does it say about Georgia and, in a larger sense, about the nature of world affairs? Russia's blitzkrieg in Georgia this week was not simply an act of aggression against a small, weak democracy. It was an assault on vital Western security interests. Since it achieved independence in 1990, Georgia has been the only obstacle in Russia's path to exerting full control over oil supplies from Central Asia to the West. And now, in the aftermath of Russia's conquest of Georgia, that obstacle has been set aside. Georgia has several oil and gas pipelines that traverse its territory from Azerbaijan to Turkey, the main one being the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline. Together they transport more than 1 percent of global oil supplies from east to west. In response to the Russian invasion, British Petroleum, which owns the pipelines, announced that it will close them. This means that Russia has won. In the future that same oil and gas will either be shipped through Russia, or it will be shipped through Georgia under the benevolent control of Russian "peacekeeping" forces permanently stationed in Gori. The West now has no option other than appeasing Russia if it wishes to receive its oil from the Caucasus. Russian control of these oil arteries represents as significant a threat to Western strategic interests as Saddam Hussein's conquest of Kuwait and his threat to invade Saudi Arabia in 1990. Like Saddam's aggression then, Russia's takeover of Georgia threatens the stability of the international economy. While Russia's invasion of Georgia is substantively the same as Saddam's attempt to assert control over Persian Gulf oil producers 18 years ago, what is different is the world's response. Eighteen years ago, the US led a UN-mandated international coalition to defeat Iraq and roll back Saddam's aggression. Today, the West is encouraging Georgia to surrender. Whether due to exhaustion over the domestic fights about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, dependence on Russian oil supplies, a residual and unjustified belief that Russia will side with the West in a confrontation with Iran over its nuclear weapons program, or the absence of an easy option for defending Georgia, it is manifestly clear that today the West is fully willing to accept complete Russian control of oil supplies from Central Asia. Notwithstanding the strong statements issued Wednesday by Bush and Rice, the West has taken two steps to make its willingness to accept Russia's moves clear. First, there was French President Nicolas Sarkozy's photogenic mediation-tour to Moscow and Tbilisi on Tuesday. And second there was the US's response to Sarkozy's shuttle diplomacy on Wednesday. Sarkozy's mediation efforts signaled nothing less than Europe's abandonment of Georgia. During his visit to Moscow, where he met with Russian dictator Vladimir Putin and Putin's Charlie McCarthy doll, "President" Dmitry Medvedev, Sarkozy agreed to a six-point document setting out the terms of the cease-fire and the basis for "peace" talks to follow. The document's six points included the following principles: The non-use of force; a cease-fire; a guarantee of access to humanitarian aid; the garrisoning of Georgian military forces; the continued deployment of Russian forces in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and anywhere else they wish to go; and an international discussion of the political status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. As a reporter for France's Liberation noted, by agreeing to the document France abandoned the basic premise that Georgia's territorial integrity should be respected by Russia. Moreover, by leaving Russian forces in the country and giving them the right to deploy wherever they deem necessary, Sarkozy accepted Russian control of Georgia. By grounding Georgian forces in their garrisons, (or what is left of them after most of Georgia's major military bases were either destroyed or occupied by Russian forces), Sarkozy's document denies Georgia the right to defend itself from future Russian aggression. In their appearances on Wednesday, both Bush and Rice praised Sarkozy's efforts and Rice explained that the US wants France to continue its efforts to mediate between Russia and Georgia. Although both American leaders insisted that Georgia's territorial integrity must be respected, neither offered any sense of how that is to be accomplished. Neither explained how that aim aligns with the French-mediated cease-fire agreement that gives international backing to Russia's occupation of the country. The West's response tells us three basic things about the nature of world affairs. First, it teaches us that "international legitimacy" is determined neither by a state's adherence to international law nor by a state's alliances with great powers. Rather, international legitimacy is determined by the number of divisions a state possesses. After Russia illegally invaded Georgia, European and American officials as well as Democratic presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama hinted that Russia had a legitimate right to invade, when they wrongly referred to South Ossetia as "disputed territory." While South Ossetia and Abkhazia are separatist provinces, their sovereignty is not in dispute. They are part of Georgia. Georgia acted legally when it tried to protect its territory from separatist violence last Friday. Russia acted illegally when it invaded. Yet aside from the Georgian government itself, no one has noticed this basic distinction. "We don't have time now to get into long discussions on blame," German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said on Tuesday. "We shouldn't make any moral judgments on this war. Stopping the war, that's what we're interested in," French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner explained, adding, "Don't ask us who's good and who's bad here." Then there is the fact that Georgia has gone out of its way to liberalize and democratize its society and political system and to be a loyal ally to the US. It sent significant forces to Iraq and Kosovo. Far from returning the favor, in Georgia's hour of need, all the US agreed to do was give Georgian forces a free plane ride home from Iraq. That the administration has no intention of defending its loyal ally was made clear Wednesday afternoon when the Pentagon sharply denied Georgian claims that the US would defend Georgian airports and seaports from Russian aggression. The Pentagon's blunt denial of any plan to restore Georgian sovereignty was one of the first truly credible statements issued by the US Defense Department on the conflict. It took the US four days to acknowledge Russian aggression beyond South Ossetia. Even as convoys of journalists were shelled, civilian's homes were bombed, and Georgian military bases were destroyed by Russian forces in Gori, a Defense Department official said, "We don't see anything that supports [the Russians] are in Gori. I don't know why the Georgians are saying that." The general lesson that emerges from Washington's claims of ignorance is that reality itself is of no concern to policy-makers bent on ignoring it. Through its obvious lies, Washington was able to justify taking no action of any sort against Russia and not speaking out in defense of Georgia until after Russia forced Georgia to surrender its sovereignty through the French mediators. The US and European willingness to let Georgia fall despite its strategic importance, despite the fact that it has operated strictly within the bounds of international law, and despite its obvious ideological affinity and loyalty to them will have enormous repercussions for the West's relations with Ukraine, the Baltic States, Poland and the Czech Republic. But its aftershocks will not be limited to Europe. They will reverberate in the Middle East as well. And Israel, for one, should take note of what has transpired. In Israel's early years, with the memory of the Holocaust still fresh in its leaders' minds, Israel founded its strategic posture on an acceptance of the fact that the soft power of international legitimacy, peace treaties, alliances and common interests only matters in the presence of the hard power of military force. People such as David Ben-Gurion realized that what was unique about the Holocaust was not the Allies' willingness to sit by and watch an atrocity unfold but the magnitude of the atrocity they did nothing to stop. Doing nothing to prevent an innocent nation from being destroyed has always been the normal practice of nations. Yet over time, and particularly after Israel's victory in the Six Day War, that fundamental acceptance of the world as it is was lost. It was first mitigated by Israel's own shock in discovering its power. And it was further obfuscated in the aftermath of the war when the Soviets and the Arabs began promulgating the myth of Israeli aggression. In recent years, the understanding that the only guarantor of Israel's survival is Israel's ability to defeat all of its enemies decisively has been forgotten altogether by most of the country's leaders and members of its intellectual classes. Since 1979 and with increasing intensity since 1993, Israeli leaders bent on appeasing everyone from the Egyptians to the Palestinians to the Syrians to the Lebanese have called for Israel's inclusion in NATO, or the deployment of Western forces to its borders or lobbied Washington for a formal strategic alliance. They have claimed that such forces and such treaties will unburden the country of the need to protect itself in the event that our neighbors attack us after we give them the territories necessary to wage war against us. It has never made any difference to any of these leaders that none of the myriad international forces deployed along our borders has ever protected us. The fact that instead of protecting Israel, they have served as shields behind which our enemies rebuild their forces and then attack us has made no impression. Instead, our leaders have argued that once we figure out the proper form of appeasement everyone will rise to defend us. If nothing else comes of it, the West's response to the rape of Georgia should end that delusion. Georgia did almost everything right. And like Israel was, for its actions Georgia was celebrated in the West with platitudes of enduring friendship and empty promises of alliances that were discarded the moment Russia invaded. Georgia only made one mistake, and for that mistake it will pay an enormous price. As it steadily built alliances, it forgot to build an army. Israel has an army. It has just forgotten why its survival depends on our willingness to use it. If we are unwilling to use our military to defeat our enemies, we will lose everything. This is the basic, enduring truth of international affairs that we have ignored at our peril. No matter what we do, it will always be the case. For this is the nature of world affairs, and the nature of man. caroline at carolineglick.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080817/becfd0a6/attachment.html From dparks1963 at charter.net Sun Aug 17 15:27:57 2008 From: dparks1963 at charter.net (dparks1963 at charter.net) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 13:27:57 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Tonight's Sunday Shul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080817162757.R753I.305500.root@mp14> Please don't be discouraged. We have a small group of believers that meet every Sunday for two hours (about 4 of us) in Birmingham, Alabama to talk about the same issues that you care about. We love your teachings and for what you stand for. I know more about God today than I ever have. I have learned more over the last 8 - 10 months due to this small group and your teachings as well as Joseph Good and some others than I ever have. I have been gong to church my whole life but I am finally starting to get it. Please keep pressing on!!!! ---- RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: > I want to encourage all of you to take the time to listen to Sunday Shul > this week. I feel incredibly stirred and am excited about tonight's class. > > I will be teaching live at 7:00 P.M. central, or you can download the > podcast at your convenience. I usually have it up by 10:00 P.M. central. > > I love the idea of being able to teach the word of God live every week. I > consider it the greatest honor and am thankful that Brian has made all of this > possible. > > The local group has dwindled over the past year as my teachings have taken a > more "Hebraic and Biblical" turn, but I continue to be inspired at the people > who continue to find these classes through the miracle of our modern age. > > If your schedule allows, I would love to have you join me at the Synagogue > without walls for a class that I feel is very important for the people of our > planet. > > I wish all of you a wonderful and peaceful week as we enter the 7 weeks of > consolation. > > Ross K. Nichols > _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) > > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 ) From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Aug 18 06:28:42 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:28:42 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] 17 Av 5768 Message-ID: <8CACF3CB3E347AC-7B4-1CA7@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com> The Lekarev Report 17 Av 5768 August 18, 2008 Shalom You shall diligently keep the commandments of Hashem your G-d, and His testimonies, and His statutes, which He commanded you. And you shall do what is right and good in the sight of Hashem; that it may go well with you, and that you may go in and possess the good land which Hashem swore to your fathers. Deut. 6:17-18 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080818/7e5376a5/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 16:35:40 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Tonight's Sunday Shul Message-ID: <167218.44704.qm@web51108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Ross, and so importantly, those of your supporting staff, Thank you for your continued efforts to proclaim the good news to all nations. The quality of the effort far exceeds the few attending physically. No doubt, you, all of you,?are having a greater impact upon the world than you might presently?imagine. The Adversary would tempt you to look at what is before your physical eyes alone and grow discouraged. I encourage you to look with the eyes of your spirit and behold the world listenening and hearkening to your words.?I, for one, have listened in since we first crossed paths this year, and am?confident that you are intent upon seeking HaShem,?your G-d, with all of your heart, to teach with compassion and consideration, and that you are?desirous of?providing a common ground?where we, from diverse histories and understandings, can assemble ourselves together and learn to truly love and appreciate one another. Love & Prayers, Tracy Phillip Osborne ----- Original Message ---- From: "RNDAVAR at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; uilist at unitedisrael.org Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:30:20 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Tonight's Sunday Shul I want to encourage all of you to take the time to listen to Sunday Shul this week.? I feel incredibly stirred and am excited about tonight's class. ? I will be teaching live at 7:00 P.M. central, or you can download the podcast at your convenience. I usually have it up by 10:00 P.M. central. ? I love the idea of being able to teach the word of God live every week. I consider it the greatest honor and am thankful that Brian has made all of this possible. ? The local group has dwindled over the past year as my teachings have taken a more "Hebraic and Biblical" turn, but I continue to be inspired at the people who continue to find these classes through the miracle of our modern age. ? If your schedule allows, I would love to have you join me at the Synagogue without walls for a class that I feel is very important for the people of our planet. ? I wish all of you a wonderful and peaceful week as we enter the 7 weeks of consolation. ? Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org ________________________________ Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080818/5f65450a/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 16:35:47 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Tonight's Sunday Shul Message-ID: <760152.7927.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Ross, and so importantly, those of your supporting staff, Thank you for your continued efforts to proclaim the good news to all nations. The quality of the effort far exceeds the few attending physically. No doubt, you, all of you,?are having a greater impact upon the world than you might presently?imagine. The Adversary would tempt you to look at what is before your physical eyes alone and grow discouraged. I encourage you to look with the eyes of your spirit and behold the world listenening and hearkening to your words.?I, for one, have listened in since we first crossed paths this year, and am?confident that you are intent upon seeking HaShem,?your G-d, with all of your heart, to teach with compassion and consideration, and that you are?desirous of?providing a common ground?where we, from diverse histories and understandings, can assemble ourselves together and learn to truly love and appreciate one another. Love & Prayers, Tracy Phillip Osborne ----- Original Message ---- From: "RNDAVAR at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; uilist at unitedisrael.org Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:30:20 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Tonight's Sunday Shul I want to encourage all of you to take the time to listen to Sunday Shul this week.? I feel incredibly stirred and am excited about tonight's class. ? I will be teaching live at 7:00 P.M. central, or you can download the podcast at your convenience. I usually have it up by 10:00 P.M. central. ? I love the idea of being able to teach the word of God live every week. I consider it the greatest honor and am thankful that Brian has made all of this possible. ? The local group has dwindled over the past year as my teachings have taken a more "Hebraic and Biblical" turn, but I continue to be inspired at the people who continue to find these classes through the miracle of our modern age. ? If your schedule allows, I would love to have you join me at the Synagogue without walls for a class that I feel is very important for the people of our planet. ? I wish all of you a wonderful and peaceful week as we enter the 7 weeks of consolation. ? Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org ________________________________ Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080818/e7f764d2/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 22:35:17 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Message-ID: <51785.52103.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> For your consideration and comment. With Dr. Tabor?s words, I?m reminded that Several years ago, while I slept, I was given a Dream/Vision: I sat with the Scriptures in front of me. Someone stood behind me, reaching over my shoulder pointing down to the prophets. He drew forth a theme and stated it this way: "WHEN HE COMES, THE NATIONS SHALL LIFT UP A BANNER DECLARING, ?Y-H-W-H REIGNS?. The "HE" was not identified; But, I have always assumed that it meant the coming of the Messiah. Maybe I assumed wrong - The "HE" could very well have meant HaShem Himself. But....maybe not. You will not catch me murmuring and complaining either way. However, I?ll take a closer look. Y?all let me know what you think...No doubt that the varying 1st, 2nd, 3rd, person speech, with the several personalities involved in Zachariah gets complicated....and I don?t claim to have it all together...this may take a little meditation....but, here goes...Zec 2:1 { Does this YOUNG MAN begin to speak in the first person in verse 6? And, if so, is he The Prophet like unto Moses, in whose mouth, HaShem puts His words? Deut 18:15 me[the young man] unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that touches you touches the apple of HIS [HaShem] eye. I [the young man] will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me [the young man]. Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come[the young man], and I [the young man]will dwellin the midst of thee, saith the LORD. Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation." In the next chapter, Is this, BRANCH [Tsemech], not the same as the young man spoken of in chapter 2? Zec 3:8 HaShem says "... I will bring forth my servant, the BRANCH [TSEMECH]..." And then, we have 2 anointed ones standing before The BRANCH: Let?s save them for later! Zec 4:14 Then said he, "These [Is not The BRANCH [TSEMECH] the human Lord of the whole earth? - notice the Zacharaiah 9:10 - under HaShem?s Lordship, of course! Plenty of prophetic verses come to mind, if you?re unsure of this.].HASHEM SPEAKS OF THE BRANCH TO THE DAUGHTERS OF JERUSALEM Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just [a Tsadiq], and having salvation [Yasha]; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zec 9:10 And I [HaShem] will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he [The Young Man - The BRANCH?] shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. AND THEN, HASHEM SPEAKS DIRECTLY TO THE BRANCH Zec 9:11 As for thee also [ the young man - the BRANCH], by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.BACKING UP A BIT...LET?S TEST AGAIN...TO SEE IF THERE CONTINUES TO BE COHERENCY IN MY ASSERTION THAT "the young man is The Branch" SENT BY HaShem: Zec 6:9 And the word of the LORD came unto me [Zacahariah], saying, mypeople: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent meunto thee. arethe two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. Zec 6:10 "Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah; Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;"Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, "Thus speaks the LORD of hosts, saying, ?Behold and the man whose name is The BRANCH; and heshall grow up [branch] out of his place, and heshall build the temple of the LORD: Zec 6:13 Even heshall build the temple of the LORD; heme..."}heshall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both....?" me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD, your God.Surely, it makes no sense, that HASHEM?s FEET stand on the mount of olives and then, ...the LORD my G-d shall come.... How can HE Come, when HE is already here, standing on the Mount of Olives? Surely, it is The Branch, HIS Shaliach, who stands upon the Mt of Olives first??? The end result will be thus: Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.**The BRANCH is SENT/Shalach A Sent One/A SHALIACH / An APOSTLE A sent one is an agent. And this invokes the LAW OF AGENCY...In discussing the mechanism of legal agency, Jewish law sees the "principal" [the sender] working through the "emissary" [the sent one] in three possible ways: 1) The emissary's [the sent one?s] final achievement is attributed to the principal [the Sender] 2) The emissary's [the sent one?s] every action is attributed to the principal [the Sender] 3) The emissary [the sent one] completely embodies the principal [the Sender].We can see this principle spelled out very clearly in The Torah and Prophets. Can we not? Love & Prayers, Tracy shall bear the glory, {Remember: Zachariah 2:8 "...After the glory hath HE [HaShem] sent and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and So, WHO ARE WE LOOKING FOR TO APPEAR FIRST? THE SENDER OR THE SENT ONE???DOES THE YOUNG MAN SPEAK AGAIN? Zec 6:15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [gheber 1397 - the young man?] that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered...IN CHAPTER 14: THERE SEEMS TO BE A PROGRESSION FROM VERSE 4 : First: THE SENT ONE [THE BRANCH] VERSE 5: Second: THE SENDER finally comes with His Holy Ones Is this not a progression? I, personally, lean toward the thought that this represents a perfect example of The Shaliach completely embodying the Sender {**see the principle spelled out below}. Is there not a progression from verse 4 to verse 5? Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives... {"his feet"....Is this not "the young man, The BRANCH, The Shepherd...The Gheber...my fellow...The Prophet like unto Moses with the words of HaShem in his mouth?} Zec 14:5 ...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.} Zec 2:6 "Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwells with the daughter of Babylon. Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath HE [HaShem] sent Zec 2:9 For, behold, Remember the verse: The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will a manwith a measuring line in his hand. Zec 2:2 Then said I [Zachariah] , Whither goest thou? And hesaid unto me, "To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof." Zec 2:3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, Zec 2:4 And said unto him, "Run, speak to this young man, saying, "Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: Zec 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her." I [Zachariah] lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold I awakened. ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:27:27 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Shalom James & Marvin, ? Very interesting conversation. I wonder if this is what?this mother was thinking of when she was?making her request? Mat 20:20Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.Mat 20:21And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. Mat 20:22 Mat 20:23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to themfor whom it is prepared of my Father.So, seemingly, the center position is taken (the one like unto Moses), that is, while we can wonder about the two assistants. But?Yeshua answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. ? I'll probably be watching FOX rather than CNN, but, I'm sure they'll all be carrying this live - that is, if New York is still standing. Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:06:39 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Marvin, I think you are right on with this reading of the Prophets though I am not sure the "moshiach" is the main one awaited, but rather the Prophet like Moses, whom Zechariah calls the "Adon" of the earth, before whom the two messiahs stand. Indeed, they are his assistants. He is the one who anoints but is not himself anointed--by any human at least. As you know, we have discussed this for many years, the three figures, with the middle one representing HaShem directly, as Moses did.? That seems to be the clear meaning of Zechariah 2:10-13 [vs in Hebrew text are 2:14-17], and as you note, HaShem SENDS this one, who speaks here in the 1st person. This language is very strange and was pointed out by David Horowitz many times, and it is the same "style" of reference we find with Moses, e.g. Deut 29:1-5 (note carefully the pronouns, with Moses as speaker). The one who speaks "mouth to mouth" with HaShem is center stage, assisted by his two anointed ones. Both the Christian and the Jewish exclusive focus on the Davidic figure puts this out of balance. You will remember I cover this extensively in Restoring Abrahamic Faith, and the new edition will go into it even more clearly. Zechariah is the key text, from start to finish. I think only in Zech 8-14 do you get some sense of the "chronology" of things, in terms of how they unfold. All eyes turn to Jerusalem. I also think you are correct to see that this is not just bells and whistles and cosmic display. It will come in history, just as did the Exodus, and only gradually will various peoples understand. In other words, it will be covered by CNN, so to speak... Take care, James On Aug 13, 2008, at 8:12 AM, mhyde wrote: Why do the nations suddenly stream up to? Zion ??? If we look at Zechariah 2 it would seem that just as Psa. 102 ?13?Thou shalt arise,?and?have mercy upon? Zion : for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.???????So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.?16?When the LORD shall build up? Zion , he shall appear in his glory. ?This same language of "glory and defense" is found in?Isa 4:5, ?alluding to the pillar of cloud and fire which defended and enlightened? Israel?in the desert. ?Zec 8:?6?Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.?7?Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;?8?And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of? Jerusalem : and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. As per Isa. 11:11-12. ? ? It seems to me form this text in Zechariah that God?s glory will appear, the pillar of fire and the cloud will appear and this Glory that Moses got a glimpse of, the whole world with get to see. This happens at an appointed time and THEN the nations start coming up to joined themselves to the God of Israel. ? ?Also, in the text of Zechariah there seem to be two(2) speakers. One being YHVH and the other his servant, whom most would identify with Moshaich.?? As I read through this again, ?I get the sense that YHVH will reveal himself again as in the wilderness and also their will be this servant figure present also.? Vs. 9 speaks of the ?shaking of the hand? at the nations as in Isa.11:15, 19:16, this will get peoples attention. Verse 11 speaks of ?many nations shall joined to the Lord in that day?.? ? Coming from a christian background were the world and all world / future / events happen with the ?christian church? at the center, I am being to think the more correct course of events will be that Judea / Israel will be at the center and the rest of the world will be standing on the outside looking on?.? Just like when God brought the children home the first time when he brought them out of? Egypt .? Most religious people will look for the supernatural events.? But, what if Moshiach just quietly slips in to town riding on a donkey?? What if he works quietly behind the scenes until he slowly becomes center stage? ??We often read the text of the earth splitting, the heavens shaking and the ?every eye shall behold? and want to think of some super natural earth shaking event were we all fall on our face?s and turned to God.? But, from these scriptures and others it seems to indicate a process and ?not and event that happens in a milli-second. ? When God spoke to Moses Exo. 3, telling him to go get the people of? Israel?his children, Moses was not worried about Pharaoh letting them go! Moses was worried that the children ?of? Israel?would not believe him and then willingly follow him out.? Moses was told to go to the elders of? Israel , he pleaded his case there first; then with the elders of? Israel?he went before the King of Egypt. V.29 Moses and Aaron gather together the elders of? Israel .? V.30 Moses spoke all the words and did all the signs. V31 The people (AM) believed. ? Therefore, my I suggest that the ?glory of YHVH? and Moshiach will be in? Israel?/? Judea?before the world is made aware of it? ? Shalom, Marvin ? ? ________________________________ From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]?On Behalf Of?James Tabor Sent:?Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:38 PM To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts ? I agree and I expand on this in the new version of?Restoring Abrahamic Faith.? ? It seems to me the "Seven" are minimal and a good "identification" marker vis-a-vis Judaism. For one to say, "I just know in my heart" or because I am from the NW Celtic peoples, that I am of the "tribes," might wash if someone has read the research of people like Hulley, but in general it can just sound nutty. I often say, "Noahide" is not my definition of myself, but it is a good Jewish definition of someone who has my God/Torah/Israel orientation and who is not a halachically Jewish. I find it most functional and I have no objection to Judaism "defining itself." I think they had no choice given the 2000 years of Exile.? ? But even more interesting the question you touch on--what will cause the attraction, of Zechariah 2 & 8; Isaiah 2, and Jeremiah 7, and many other passages. WHY do the nations suddenly stream up to? Zion . ?I have my ideas, but wonder if anyone else wants to jump in here... ? James ? ? On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:20 AM, mhyde wrote: Ross and others, ? I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross was teaching.?? As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something.??? I have always had a question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to? Zionand the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to their religion.? Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying , ?teach us for we know that God is with you?.? Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , ?is the gate at the outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this is the Eastern gate. ? At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. ?Almost all of the commandments are mentioned, representive of both tablets.?? What I see here is that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code.?? Israel?as a whole, both Judea?and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts.?? ? Any thoughts or comments? ? Shalom, marvin?? _______________________________________________ ?_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080818/f14e6619/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Aug 19 02:31:31 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:31:31 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Tonight's Sunday Shul In-Reply-To: <760152.7927.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <760152.7927.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200808190731.m7J7VRIK021934@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Ross and friends, I want to second Tracy's motion here, to be not discouraged, because some left, but encouraged, because you are going forward with the message that needs to go out to those whom HaShem calls to hear this. We often think that we should go out and have results like the churches did and do with their message. However, I do not think that is how this Work is unfolding and will unfold. The message here is for those whom Hashem calls. I do not want to sound "exlusivist" about this. It just seems to be so, since it is Hashem who calls people to wake up, and it is we who follow with what they need to "eat" as spiritual food. Our paths are separate in many ways, yet we are converging on the paths of the Torah, despite our differences. It is the "chesed" that binds us together, (besides our calling). May HaShem "educate" us for what we need to know, and help us to unlearn" what we need to get rid of, so that we are prepared to help our fellow travelers. Steve At 02:35 PM 8/18/2008, you wrote: >Dear Ross, and so importantly, those of your supporting staff, > > > >Thank you for your continued efforts to proclaim the good news to >all nations. The quality of the effort far exceeds the few attending >physically. No doubt, you, all of you, are having a greater impact >upon the world than you might presently imagine. The Adversary would >tempt you to look at what is before your physical eyes alone and >grow discouraged. I encourage you to look with the eyes of your >spirit and behold the world listenening and hearkening to your >words. I, for one, have listened in since we first crossed paths >this year, and am confident that you are intent upon seeking HaShem, >your G-d, with all of your heart, to teach with compassion and >consideration, and that you are desirous of providing a common >ground where we, from diverse histories and understandings, can >assemble ourselves together and learn to truly love and appreciate one another. > > > >Love & Prayers, > > > >Tracy Phillip Osborne > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: "RNDAVAR at aol.com" >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; uilist at unitedisrael.org >Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:30:20 PM >Subject: [Dialogue] Tonight's Sunday Shul > >I want to encourage all of you to take the time to listen to Sunday >Shul this week. I feel incredibly stirred and am excited about >tonight's class. > >I will be teaching live at 7:00 P.M. central, or you can download >the podcast at your convenience. I usually have it up by 10:00 P.M. central. > >I love the idea of being able to teach the word of God live every >week. I consider it the greatest honor and am thankful that Brian >has made all of this possible. > >The local group has dwindled over the past year as my teachings have >taken a more "Hebraic and Biblical" turn, but I continue to be >inspired at the people who continue to find these classes through >the miracle of our modern age. > >If your schedule allows, I would love to have you join me at the >Synagogue without walls for a class that I feel is very important >for the people of our planet. > >I wish all of you a wonderful and peaceful week as we enter the 7 >weeks of consolation. > >Ross K. Nichols >www.RootsofFaith.org > > > > > >---------- >Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? >Read >reviews on AOL Autos. > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080819/fa845b6e/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Aug 19 08:29:50 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:29:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: THANKS SO MUCH BETTY! CHRIS AND AMBER On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > > > Some of you may be aware of a rabbinic tradition that today, the 15 of Av > is considered to be a day when things turn around and take an 'upturn' for > the better as we come out of the month of Tammuz and are now past the 9thof AV. > > I think it significant that it marks the beginning of the counting of the > seven Haftarah's of Consolation leading to Rosh HaShannah, Sukkoth and Yom > Kippur! Here is another significant "seven." Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsh > points out that there is a definite progression in these readings which I > find both interesting and moving. > > > > *HAFTARAH VAETHANAN (Isaiah 40:1-28)- This is the first of "The Seven > Haftaroth of Consolation" that are read from the Sabbath after the Fast of > the Ninth of Av until the Sabbath preceeding Rosh Hashannah. * > > *HaShem commands the prophet to console the people of Israel.* > > * * > > *HAFTARAH EKEV (Isaiah 49:14-51:3) This is the second of "The is the > second of "The Seven Haftaroth of Consolation"* > > *Israel** complains " HaShem has for forsaken me" because He commanded the > prophets to console His people instead of consoling them Himself.* > > > > *HAFTARAH RE'EH (Isaiah 54: 11-55:5) * > > *The prophet reports to HaShem that Israel is not yet consoled**.* > > * * > > *HAFARAH SHOFTIM (Isaiah 51:12-52:12) This is "The Fourth Haftarah of > Consolation"* > > *Here, HaShem Himself consoles Israel* > > > > *HAFTARAH KI THETZE (Isaiah 54: 1-10) This is "The Fifth Haftarah of > Consolation"* > > *Since HaShem is consoling Israel, He urges her to rejoice*** > > > > *HAFTARAH KI THAVO (Isaiah 60) This is "The Sixth Haftarah of Consolation" > * > > *HaShem urges Israel to arise and shine for His light has shone upon them* > > * * > > *HAFTARAH NITZAVIM (Isaiah 61:10-63:9) This is the last of "The Seven > Haftarah of Consolation" * > > *Israel** replies: "I will rejoice with HaShem?"* > > * * > > > > Yes, may this "upward turn" be actualized in the personal circumstances and > on a broader scale as well, for our entire little band and all who love > HaShem and Torah as we seek Him with all our hearts, all our souls and all > our strength?. > > > > Love & Shabbat Shalom all! > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080819/9af15658/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Aug 19 12:50:56 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:50:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Tonight's Sunday Shul In-Reply-To: <200808190731.m7J7VRIK021934@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> References: <760152.7927.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200808190731.m7J7VRIK021934@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Ross, We have not been able to listen in yet, but we have wanted to and will try our best to next Sunday. Our schedules are SO busy! Please continue to share your knowledge for those of us who want to know the truth whether that means we have to change or not! Chris and Amber On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Steve Mathe wrote: > Ross and friends, > > I want to second Tracy's motion here, to be not discouraged, because some > left, but encouraged, because you are going forward with the message that > needs to go out to those whom HaShem calls to hear this. We often think > that we should go out and have results like the churches did and do with > their message. However, I do not think that is how this Work is unfolding > and will unfold. The message here is for those whom Hashem calls. I do not > want to sound "exlusivist" about this. It just seems to be so, since it is > Hashem who calls people to wake up, and it is we who follow with what they > need to "eat" as spiritual food. Our paths are separate in many ways, yet we > are converging on the paths of the Torah, despite our differences. It is the > "chesed" that binds us together, (besides our calling). > > May HaShem "educate" us for what we need to know, and help us to unlearn" > what we need to get rid of, so that we are prepared to help our fellow > travelers. > > Steve > > > > At 02:35 PM 8/18/2008, you wrote: > > Dear Ross, and so importantly, those of your supporting staff, > > > > Thank you for your continued efforts to proclaim the good news to all > nations. The quality of the effort far exceeds the few attending physically. > No doubt, you, *all of you*, are having a greater impact upon the world > than you might presently imagine. The Adversary would tempt you to look at > what is before your physical eyes alone and grow discouraged. I encourage > you to look with the eyes of your spirit and behold the world listenening > and hearkening to your words. I, for one, have listened in since we first > crossed paths this year, and am confident that you are intent upon seeking > HaShem, your G-d, with all of your heart, to teach with compassion and > consideration, and that you are desirous of providing a common ground where > we, from diverse histories and understandings, can assemble ourselves > together and learn to truly love and appreciate one another. > > > > Love & Prayers, > > > > Tracy Phillip Osborne > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "RNDAVAR at aol.com" > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; uilist at unitedisrael.org > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:30:20 PM > Subject: [Dialogue] Tonight's Sunday Shul > > I want to encourage all of you to take the time to listen to Sunday Shul > this week. I feel incredibly stirred and am excited about tonight's class. > > I will be teaching live at 7:00 P.M. central, or you can download the > podcast at your convenience. I usually have it up by 10:00 P.M. central. > > I love the idea of being able to teach the word of God live every week. I > consider it the greatest honor and am thankful that Brian has made all of > this possible. > > The local group has dwindled over the past year as my teachings have taken > a more "Hebraic and Biblical" turn, but I continue to be inspired at the > people who continue to find these classes through the miracle of our modern > age. > > If your schedule allows, I would love to have you join me at the Synagogue > without walls for a class that I feel is very important for the people of > our planet. > > I wish all of you a wonderful and peaceful week as we enter the 7 weeks of > consolation. > > *Ross K. Nichols * > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews > on AOL Autos > . > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080819/9ff0f3f0/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Aug 19 13:05:47 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:05:47 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts In-Reply-To: <200808130732.m7D7W2x1009172@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> References: <924542.29764.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200808130732.m7D7W2x1009172@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Thanks for this James! Chris and Amber Fordham On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 3:32 AM, Steve Mathe wrote: > Tracy, > > No one, Ten Triber or otherwise, should take the Noahite oath before a Beit > Din unless they truly understand and intend as a Noahite to seriously uphold > the commandments and halacha, both of which extend beyond the simply "seven" > main laws (as you so well delienate on your site). These oaths are taken, > before Hashem, as is a conversion to Judaism oath is taken upon the mikveh > process. > > The acceptance of the Sheva Mitzvot, per se, and confirmation of same > before a Beit Din, accompanied by a period of living as a Ger Toshav or > Ben/Bat Noach, will beyond question facilitate any future decision to apply > for conversion to Judaism. Notice, I said "Judaism." Most Beit Dins, > especially in Israel, do not look favorably on any immediate or swift > determination by a Ger Toshav to convert to Judaism. The reason for this is > of course they want to see some prolonged period of commitment and not just > some transitory flight of fancy or worse, some masquerading as Christians > trying to creep in with an agenda to convert Jews. Conversions are becoming > more and more difficult in Israel due this requirement. > > Never the less, Bnei Noach are being increasingly advantageously positioned > for greater access and favor in terms of rabbinical guidance and > recognition. The development of Halacha, educational resources and Batei > Din for Bnei Noach is a huge accomplishment and progress in our days, and it > continues to grow in favor, acceptance and in public discussion in Israel. > More and more rabbis are becoming open and educated and this will overflow > to the lands of exile, particularly the West. The global Noahide Conference > in Fort Lauderdale in June was a huge success. Keeping tabs on the rapidly > growing *http://www.noahidenations.com* * > website* is advisable for those contemplating Noachite conversion and / or > wanting to know what is going on in that realm. They had added a host of > other services and are really the premier source of rabbinically approved > and guided Bnei Noach movement development. *Noahide Nations *as an > organization has the approval, acceptance and direction of not only the > Sanhedrin Project and its designated emissary, Roger Grattan, but also the > full support of eminent rabbis. > > Admission as a Ten Triber into the spiritual commonwealth of Israel as it > is defined and governed by Orthodox Judaism is not possible or even > advisable at this time. Such desires for admissions are best kept to one's > self. If any Ten Triber might contemplate of being a Ben / Bat Noach first, > and then going for admission as a Ten Triber, it is NOT advisable and will > NOT work. Such a person will have to go through "conversion to Judaism," > and live in a Jewish community as a Jew. I think this is not a correct > thing to do for anyone who wants to remain a "Ten Triber /Ephraimite." > Doing otherwise is just not an honest thing to do. > > While the conviction of heart and soul within Ten Tribers cannot truly be > appreciated by the rabbaim, much to the frustration of Ten Tribers, the > rabbinic position accords with Talmud in that at the time of Moshiach he > will identify the tribal belonging of each exile and return all those who > have not previously awakened and returned. For the time being, it is best > for Ten Tribers to *NOT* push for and demand official rabbinic recognition > or admission into the spiritual commonwealth of Israel, but live as best > they can, quietly conforming to the Covenant in their own communities and > congregations / chavurot. It must be recognized by Ten Tribers, that the > rabbis are strictly guided by halacha, which does not provide provisions for > the Ten Tribes to return as Ten Tribers, because "descent" cannot be proven > as it can be for some "lost" Jews. Even for them, if they cannot prove a > matrilineal descent, it is best for them to go through an official halachic > conversion to Judaism. Of course I am referring to Orthodox conversions, > not others, because in other factions of Judaism practically anything goes > for they are not bound by observance of the Torah and halacha. > > I hope this helps, > > Steve > > > At 05:19 AM 8/12/2008, you wrote: > > Steve, > > Is it advisable, helpful, or necessary, etc., etc., for the 10 Tribers to > take a Noachite Oath before a Jewish Beit Din? > > Tracy > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tracy Osborne > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 2:35:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts > > Thanks for the kind words, Steve and Clyde. Thanks Marvin for introducing > this topic. > > Steve, I agree wholeheartedly. For some of us 10 Tribers, after having been > dealt with concerning issues going beyond the 7 Noachite laws, along with an > aversion to "The Pharisees/Rabbi's" teachings, it takes a while to really > see through these things. All of a sudden, we realize we're 10 Tribers, and > begin following additional precepts (in our own way, I might add) and then, > are told that these commands are not for you, we can get the feeling that > we're being told to go to the back of the bus. Therefore, there is a > resistance by some to these categories. > > If I may suggest for further consideration and comment: > > An object lesson for the role of the 12 Tribes among the 70 Nations is > described in these verses from the Parasha Mas'ei: Num 33:9 > > > *They set out from Marah and came to Elim. There were twelve springs [12 > Tribes] in Elim and seventy palm trees [70 Nations], so they encamped there. > *Our role was/is to be a priestly nation [12 Tribes] among all 70 nations > and be the source of "water" to lead the 70 nations back to HaShem. > > Another verse in the same Parasha, Numbers 35:15 These six cities shall > be a refuge, for > > *#1)* the children of Israel [In the Land], and for > *#2)* the stranger [*Ger* - Advanced Noachites dwelling in the Land with > Israel], and for > *#3)* the sojourner among you... [*Toshav* - Noachites visiting the Land > temporarily - Foreigners] > > The Levitical Cities can be seen as teaching centers for all of these > categories. And, they would serve as Welcome Centers, to orient Foreigners > to the basics of Our Nation during their visit. > > An additional object lesson, which may relate to the 7 Noachite Laws, would > be that of Elisha & Naaman in 2Kings 5:1-19. Notice the "7" immersions as a > symbol for the 7 Laws or Categories of Laws. Naaman was converted to the G-d > of Israel, without becoming an Israelite. The Prophet said to him, "Go in > Shalom". Notice, the awkward position that this new convert was in as he > went back to his nation. Many of us find ourselves in similar situations > also. We need "wisdom from above" in manuvering in such circumstances as > Naaman lived. > > In the categorization above, Naaman was > > #3) A Toshav. He could have been a lost triber and after returning home, he > might begin to have an inner urge to return to the Land to live, and become > #2) A Ger. After a while, his heart might begin to desire to go all the way > and keep the Passover. He would then be circumcised, and become > #1) An Israelite. > > More to ask about, later... > > Love & Prayers, > > Tracy > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Steve Mathe > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:47:09 PM > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts > > Tracy, > > You have an excellent exposition on the Noachite laws. Of course they are > places to start to turn /return to G-d for everyone.* As Marvin says, *"... > we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must > keep / observe the basic Noahide code. Israel as a whole, both Judah and > Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the > Noahide precepts." > It certainly is a place to start for all, for it is a beginning of > minimum obligations to basic directives by God for all mankind. Alienated > Israelites, gentiles of all sorts can begin here. Of course Israelites can > and need to go further, for after all we left the Covenant and the > priesthood nation of God. Never the less, it can be a beginning for all, for > it is the ideal "training school" for all. We cannot start in the 12th, > 10th, or even the fifth grade when we have not been in school at all. We > must start in "the beginning of some observance" and add as we make progress > in those that we started earlier. The Lubavitcher Rebbe recommended, that > secular and not observant Jews of all stripes just "start with one mitzvah > at a time." I think it is wise advice. > > I know that some rabbis who know about the Ten Tribes, recommend that they > come back first as Noachites. This only makes sense to them, since according > to halacha in the Talmud, they are regarded as gentiles. Truly, the Ten > Tribes were cursed out of their own mouths. They wanted to be like the > gentiles, and so God took away their identity totally for 2700 years and let > them live as gentiles till their sentence is up at the end of days. > > Of course the Ten Tribes are obligated to eventually return to the Covenant > and all its obligations. No, I did not say that Ten Tribers have to become > "Jewish." Yet, they are obligated to start moving out of the gentile ways of > being in the world" and they can learn a lot from Jews. This process is > already going on among the pioneer returnees at their own particular pace > because they are listening to G-d's call to them in the Torah and the > Prophets . It is an individual matter for individuals and local > congregations to find their way back home. Yes, a returnee / turnee needs > to stop eating "blutwurst" immediately. It is a place to start. Later, > they can stop eating pork, and later they may want to eat kosher. It is a > sensible progression. Noachites will stop with the 7 laws. Ten Tribers > will go further. We will all be friends. > > Steve > > "Only prayer, torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." > > Ps.: > > Those who had revelations, PRs and dreams about returning to observance, > please let the list know. We need to let everyone know what God wants of us > returnees in the matte of observance. > > > At 05:56 AM 8/11/2008, you wrote: > > Hello Marvin, > > I have a chapter in my book, on this subject, that I would like to get your > thoughts about. > > http://www.onhigh.org/twosticks7.htm > > Love & Prayers, > > Tracy > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: mhyde > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:20:07 AM > Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts > > Ross and others, > > > > I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross > was teaching. As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and > Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something. I have always had a question as to how > God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to Zion and the > Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the > Jews will have to convert to their religion. Remember it is us who is > looking to them and saying , "teach us for we know that God is with you". > Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , is the gate at the > outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say > this is the Eastern gate. > > > > At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. Almost all of the commandments are > mentioned, representive of both tablets. What I see here is that we have > to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / > observe the basic Noahide code. Israel as a whole, both Judea and Ephraim > as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide > precepts. > > > > Any thoughts or comments? > > > > Shalom, > > marvin > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080819/38f56968/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Aug 19 13:10:57 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:10:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] New version of Confession Prayer In-Reply-To: <200808142306.m7EN6QaQ011108@mail104c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200808142306.m7EN6QaQ011108@mail104c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Thanks Steve! Chris and Amber On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Steve Mathe wrote: > Friends, > > I have a new version of the Confession Prayer up at > http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Prayer/Confession%20Prayers%20VI.pdf. > It is long, but then, our sins are "long." Am thankful to those who have > contributed suggestions to it. It seems that I am always adding a reference > or a concept to it here and there. It will do for now, till further notice. > I do suggest it to be used by individuals, families, chavurot/fellowhsips, > congregations and at conferences. I stuck to the King James language and > lines from it, so most concepts can be referenced with a Scripture > quotations. I did this so, (except purposefully in a few salient places to > make a point), because it is so part and parcel of our collective > unconscious as English speaking peoples and thus it can speak from our > souls. > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080819/5012ecb8/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Aug 19 15:26:06 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:26:06 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 122 Message-ID: <8CAD050F193BEB5-16A0-1CF2@webmail-me16.sysops.aol.com> Psalm 122: Peace and Scholars 18 Av 5768, 19 August 08 12:48 by by Rabbi Chanan Morrison (IsraelNN.com) The concluding passage of tractate Berachot teaches a remarkable insight into the nature of peace: "Rabbi Elazar said in the name of Rabbi Haninah: Torah scholars increase peace in the world. As it says, 'All of Your children are students of God; great is the peace of Your children.' [Isaiah 54:13] Read this not banayich - 'Your children' - but rather bonayich - 'Your builders'." (Berachot 64a) Considering the vast number of disagreements and differences of opinion among Torah scholars, Rabbi Haninah's statement seems, well, counterintuitive. Do scholars really increase peace in the world? And why did Rabbi Haninah insist that they are "builders"? What does this tell us about scholars and peace? True Peace People mistakenly believe that peace in the world means that everyone will share common viewpoints and think the same way. So when they see scholars disagreeing about an issue, this appears to be the exact opposite of peace. True peace, however, comes precisely through the proliferation of divergent views. When all of the various angles and sides of an issue are exposed, and we are able to clarify how each one has its place - that is true peace. The Hebrew word shalom means both "peace" and "completeness". We will only attain complete knowledge when we are able to accommodate all views - even those that appear contradictory - as partial perceptions of the whole truth. Like an interlocking puzzle, together they present a complete picture. When Torah scholars broaden knowledge and provide new insights, they contribute to the increase of peace. We need to recognize that "all of Your children are students of God." All views, even those that seem contradictory, in fact help reveal knowledge and truth. For this reason, Rabbi Haninah emphasized that scholars are like builders. A building is erected from all sides, using a variety of materials and skills. So too, the whole truth is constructed from diverse views, opinions and methods of analysis. Peace and Tranquility Curiously, the Talmud brings Rabbi Haninah's observation and then quotes from Psalms: "May there be peace in your courtyard and tranquility in your palaces." (122:7) What does this verse add? And what is the difference between peace and tranquility (shalvah)? According to Rabbi Haninah, no talent or study should be ignored. Rather, we need to discern its inner meaning and thus determine its proper place. If there appear to be inconsistencies between different methods, we must seek out their inner kernel. Once we grasp the inner truth in each concept, all conflicts will be resolved, and our wisdom will be expanded and enhanced. It is precisely this idea that the verse teaches. The verse speaks of two levels: the surrounding grounds and the inner palace. It specifically uses the word cheil - the fenced-in area surrounding the Temple's outer courts - to describe the lower level. The Hebrew word chayil means "strength" or "activity". Thus, the first level refers to the realm of life and vigorous activity, which is blessed - not with monotonous sameness - but with a multitude of competing forces. All of this turmoil has value when it leads to a unified goal - "peace in your courtyard." The inner palace, on the other hand, is not the place for the clamorous discord of clashing forces. It is the place of quiet wisdom, the source of inner truth for the conflicting views in the outer courtyard. Here reigns a serene understanding - "tranquility in your palaces." [Adapted from Ein Ayah vol. II, pp.397-398] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080819/48b754b7/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Aug 19 20:13:37 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:13:37 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request In-Reply-To: <840652.53532.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <840652.53532.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0808191813o1d27d510y9f7b671ae841125d@mail.gmail.com> Glenn, Praying for him and the family. Please keep us up dated. Kim On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Tracy Osborne wrote: > Glenn, > > Our prayers are with all concerned here. > > Tracy & Lynn > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" > To: Levi Yisrael ; Ross Nichols ; > john mccrory ; Chris Maskew ; > Omkar ; constancema84 ; > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; Andy ; Travis < > laba2407 at yahoo.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:26:09 PM > Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request > > All, > > The e-mail below pertains to my great-nephew and his grave medical > condition. Please ask YHVH to intervene according to His perfect will and > purpose. > > Thank you, > > Glenn > > Keith (my brother in CA) called a while ago. They had done an MRI on > Ezra (my great-nephew) this morning and he had had a stroke, but they found > a tumor at the base of his spine. The drs. give him a few days to a month. > Chris saw him this morning and thought he seemed better and coherent. Micah > (my nephew) hadn't told Ezra yet about the results of the MRI. I guess they > don't think there is anything they can do for him, but we will be praying > God will heal him. Naturally Keith and Chris (my sister-in-law) are very > upset. > Love,Mom > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080819/9eacb9fa/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Aug 19 21:07:22 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:07:22 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0808191813o1d27d510y9f7b671ae841125d@mail.gmail.com> References: <840652.53532.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1c8dbb6e0808191813o1d27d510y9f7b671ae841125d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Glenn, Our prayers go out for your family, Chris Fordham On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 9:13 PM, kim alvarado wrote: > Glenn, > > > Praying for him and the family. Please keep us up dated. > > Kim > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Tracy Osborne wrote: > >> Glenn, >> >> Our prayers are with all concerned here. >> >> Tracy & Lynn >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" >> To: Levi Yisrael ; Ross Nichols ; >> john mccrory ; Chris Maskew ; >> Omkar ; constancema84 ; >> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; Andy ; Travis < >> laba2407 at yahoo.com> >> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:26:09 PM >> Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT Prayer Request >> >> All, >> >> The e-mail below pertains to my great-nephew and his grave medical >> condition. Please ask YHVH to intervene according to His perfect will and >> purpose. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Glenn >> >> Keith (my brother in CA) called a while ago. They had done an MRI on >> Ezra (my great-nephew) this morning and he had had a stroke, but they found >> a tumor at the base of his spine. The drs. give him a few days to a month. >> Chris saw him this morning and thought he seemed better and coherent. Micah >> (my nephew) hadn't told Ezra yet about the results of the MRI. I guess they >> don't think there is anything they can do for him, but we will be praying >> God will heal him. Naturally Keith and Chris (my sister-in-law) are very >> upset. >> Love,Mom >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080819/4305a6a2/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Aug 20 01:35:11 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:35:11 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Protect yourselves from "Flash-based" virus Message-ID: <200808200635.m7K6Z7mJ009188@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> ---------- Gang, This is a bona fide warning to all, Brian says this is NOT a hoax, and it is terrible!!! He should know!! Steve New Web Attack Hijacks Your Clipboard 08-18-2008 New Web Attack Hijacks Your Clipboard An interesting new Web attack is making the rounds that hijacks your computer's clipboard and uses it against you. The code has been found lurking in Flash-based advertisements on legitimate web sites (we knew there was a reason we hated Flash). So what does this new Web attack do? It places a link (that is difficult to delete) to a Web site selling fake security software in your clipboard. The infection automatically flushes your clipboard any time you copy or cut text to it and replaces it with the bogus link. What has security experts concerned is its potential to become widespread. The software has been found on both Macs and PCs and even targets users of alternative browsers such as Firefox. This new attack is particularly hard to protect yourself and defend against, especially considering the attack's proven ability to lurk in plain sight on legitimate Web sites. Some users have reported success in thwarting the attack by simply killing Firefox from the task manager or rebooting but, as always, we recommend up-to-date security software; including virus protection and spyware protection. The truly paranoid can stop the attack before it happens by installing Flashblock, an add-on for Firefox that will prevent any Flash-based content from loading without your specific consent. [From: BBC] Click Here for the Top Internet Threats Right Now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080819/de93727c/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 21 07:37:24 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:37:24 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 Message-ID: <8CAD1A1CBE89994-C4-4BDB@Webmail-mg01.sim.aol.com> The Lekarev Report 20 Av 5768 August 21, 2008 Shalom Hashem, Your way is in holiness; who is a great god like our G-d? You are the G-d who does wonders; You have made known Your strength among the peoples. You have redeemed Your people with Your own arm, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Psalm 77:13-15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080821/f4a1838f/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 07:43:17 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 05:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 Message-ID: <486226.40192.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Hanoch, What does "the sons of Jacob and sons of Joseph" mean? Why does the passage differentiate them in this way? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:37:24 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 The Lekarev Report 20 Av 5768 August 21, 2008 Shalom Hashem, Your way is in holiness; who is a great god like our G-d? You are the G-d who does wonders; You have made known Your strength among the peoples. You have redeemed Your people with Your own arm, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Psalm 77:13-15 ________________________________ Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080821/6f696c7f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 21 07:48:38 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:48:38 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 In-Reply-To: <486226.40192.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <486226.40192.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CAD1A35DF0B6B8-DFC-2499@mblk-d28.sysops.aol.com> Hi Tracy - ???? I've been on the road 12 of the last 14 days - no time right now, but will try to respond as soon as I can...? take care. ???????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 8:43 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 Dear Hanoch, ? What does "the sons of Jacob and sons of Joseph" mean? Why does the passage differentiate them in this way? ? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:37:24 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 The Lekarev Report 20 Av 5768 August 21, 2008 Shalom Hashem, Your way is in holiness; who is a great god like our G-d? You are the G-d who does wonders; You have made known Your strength among the peoples. You have redeemed Your people with Your own arm, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Psalm 77:13-15 Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More! _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080821/fe1c574b/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Thu Aug 21 08:02:19 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:02:19 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 References: <486226.40192.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <8CAD1A35DF0B6B8-DFC-2499@mblk-d28.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <01f801c9038e$2bf7f6c0$6400a8c0@davesbook> You are the "Road Warrior"........get it done! dave ----- Original Message ----- From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 Hi Tracy - I've been on the road 12 of the last 14 days - no time right now, but will try to respond as soon as I can... take care. Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 8:43 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 Dear Hanoch, What does "the sons of Jacob and sons of Joseph" mean? Why does the passage differentiate them in this way? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:37:24 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 The Lekarev Report 20 Av 5768 August 21, 2008 Shalom Hashem, Your way is in holiness; who is a great god like our G-d? You are the G-d who does wonders; You have made known Your strength among the peoples. You have redeemed Your people with Your own arm, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Psalm 77:13-15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More! _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080821/431a102d/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 21 13:38:24 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:38:24 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] What does your G-d ask of you? Message-ID: <8CAD1D43ABBCFD8-EBC-55B@mblk-d38.sysops.aol.com> ?????? No 1236: 22 Av 5768 (23 August 2008) ? STARTING POINT ? What Does Your G-d Ask of You? - by Rabbi Amnon Bazak, Yeshivat Har Etzion ? In this week's Torah portion, Moshe turns to the nation of Yisrael with the following statement: "And now, Yisrael, what does your G-d ask of you, except to fear your G-d, to go in His ways, and love Him, and to serve G-d with all your heart and all your soul, and to observe G-d's mitzvot and His laws which I command you today, as it is for your own benefit." [Devarim 10:12-13]. There is a well known question about this verse. The beginning of Moshe's words seem to imply that he is about to present some small demands, something that is simple and easy to perform. But then he continues with a detailed list of demands which include the entire Torah: the fear of G-d, loving Him, serving Him, and observing His commandments and laws. The Talmud asks the following famous question: "Does this mean that the fear of G-d is a simple thing?" [Megillah 25a]. The answer is, "Yes, with respect to Moshe it is a simple thing. This can be compared to a man who is asked for a large vessel which he has, and it therefore appears to him as if it were a small vessel. But if he is asked for a small vessel which he doesn't have, it appears to him as if it were very large." ? However, the simple interpretation of the verse seems closer to the explanation of the Ramban. He claims that the limit in the verse does not refer to the demands on Bnei Yisrael, which are indeed many and significant, but rather to the end of Moshe's words: "as it is for your own benefit." Since in the end the result of all of the demands will be beneficial to Bnei Yisrael, it will not be hard for the people to fulfill them. This idea, that the observance of the mitzvot is for the benefit of Yisrael, is a very important concept which is repeated several times in the book of Devarim. (For example, "You shall go along the entire path which your G-d has commanded you, so that you will live and things will be good for you, and you will live long lives on the land which you will possess" [5:30]; see also 6:25.) The Ramban explains the following verse along the same lines too: "Behold, your G-d has possession of the heaven and the heaven above it, and also the earth and everything on it." [10:14]. This implies that since the Almighty is in any case in complete control of the universe the need to perform the mitzvot is solely for the benefit of Yisrael. ? Evidently this line of reasoning is also the key to understanding the following verses. "It was only your ancestors who G-d desired, loving them, and He chose their offspring after them ? you - from among all the other nations, as is true to this very day. And you shall circumcise the barrier of your hearts and no longer make your necks stiff." [10:15-16]. Mentioning that the Almighty chose our forefathers, together with the commandme nt to open our hearts, is an allusion to the passage of the human circumcision and to the corresponding command: "And you shall circumcise your impure flesh, and let this be a symbol of a covenant between Me and you" [Bereishit 17:11]. The novelty in Moshe's words is the symbolic meaning he attaches to the mitzva of circumcision, demanding not only a physical act but also spiritual "circumcision," meaning to remove the internal restraints which interfere with observing the mitzvot. This act of removal is necessary so that the people will absorb the main theme of this passage ? the point that observing the mitzvot is solely for the benefit of the nation of Yisrael. ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080821/d53f3294/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 21 13:43:12 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:43:12 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Some food for thought Message-ID: <8CAD1D4E676A00A-EBC-5A4@mblk-d38.sysops.aol.com> TO SEE G-D'S GOODNESS ? The Redemption of Yisrael and of the Entire World - by Rabbi Yehoshua Shapira, Rosh Yeshivat Ramat Gan ? Question: In the last century, we have been witness to two revolutions that shook the foundations of the entire world, one of them close to us and the other one more general and widespread. The close revolution is that the nation of Yisrael returned to its land after a long exile filled with much suffering. The broader revolution is technological advances such as were never before known in the world, with far-reaching ramifications in the realms of society and international relations. Is there a link between these two events, or did they just happen to take place at the same time? ? Answer: Redemption does not take place at a single level. Rather, it touches on many different levels and is part of many different cycles. Every stage of the redemption is a response to a difficulty of the exile which can be felt in another cycle. For example, the ingathering of the exiles and the establishment of the State of Israel are a return to political independence, which existed in the days of the Bar-Kochba revolution, but which at the time was not led by one of holiest people (this in fact is what led to his downfall). ? This stage is vital, and its importance cannot be overrated, but it is clearly not full redemption. We have not even been privileged to achieve the level of the Chashmonai kingdom, which included the name of G-d in its20national banner. But even this exalted level is not the ultimate goal. We hope and pray for the return of the days of David and Shlomo, when the community of Yisrael could be seen in all its glory, and for an even higher status ?those moments when our forefathers stood at the foot of Mount Sinai. At that moment, the filth of Adam's sin was removed from them, and they were very close to obtaining the first set of Tablets ? made by the hand of G-d ? which could have brought complete repair of all the faults, such that we would never have fallen or been exiled again. ? All of these elements are stages in the ladder of redemption, of the return of Yisrael to its long-lost independence, to a G-d who is in hiding. But beyond this, redemption has a broader effect on the whole world. Physical reality in general is also in exile, is limited, and has forgotten its true and natural essence, as it once was ? "in ancient times, in the Garden of Eden" (see Bereishit 2:8). The earth has been cursed ever since the time of Adam's sin, and together with Yisrael it is slowly being freed from the bonds of this curse. In many psalms, we pray and hope for the participation of the entire world in redemption ? "the sea and its contents [Tehillim 98:7]... my field and all that is in it [96:12]... the trees of the forest [Divrei Hayamim I 16:33]... crawling animals and winged birds" [Tehillim 148:10]. And above all, the human beings will participate by flockin g to the Temple Mount in the end of days, "For my house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations" [Yeshayahu 56:7]. ? We might have thought, based on a simplistic understanding of the words of the prophets, that the redemption of the rest of the world and of all of reality will take place only after Yisrael has been fully redeemed, reaching its highest level. But in fact we can see that just as the redemption of Yisrael comes bit by bit in such a way that the material and worldly aspects appear on their own (and sometimes seem to contradict the spiritual redemption), the participation of the world in this great event will also occur in a similar way. ? The technological revolution is slowly freeing the world from Adam's curse ? "You shall eat bread by the sweat of your brow" [Bereishit 3:19]. This curse is now being overcome by air conditioning in most workplaces, by grandiose and sophisticated work areas where man labors to expand his material possessions far beyond anything that his ancestors ever dreamed of. In addition, today's work ethic demands that man must love his labors in order to allow him to develop his personality as part of his workday, to enjoy every stage of the work process until the final product has been made. Do not disparage this factor. It is well known that huge companies which budget all of their costs very carefully spend large sums of money to make sure that their workers feel comfortable at work. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080821/426c6830/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 19:04:26 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Message-ID: <690157.82683.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Sirs, with your permission, may I continue, fully open to your imput: Many directions to "branch" out here [no pun intended]; However,?may I?follow this vein for now? It is quite appropo that I move on to Malachi Chapter 3 here, especially since "The BRANCH" is?one of the?subjects of the first blessing that our brother Yehudah prays daily,?The Amidah Prayer, and is 'capped', so to speak, with this chapter three verse three. ?How marvelous the sages have arranged this prayer!!!? And I encourage ALL Ephramites to begin to pray this AMIDAH prayer!! For it encapsulates the prophetic flow of the prophets!! Mal 3:1Behold, I {HaShem} will send {shalach} My Messenger {Malachi - Shaliach[sent one]?- The BRANCH}, and he {the Shaliach - The BRANCH} shall prepare the way before me {HaShem}: and the Lord {HaShem}, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His Temple {which has been rebuilt by The BRANCH - remember Zachariah 6:12, 13}.?And?The Messenger {Malachi - Shaliach - The BRANCH} of the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal 3:2But who may abide the day of his coming {The One Like Unto Moses - Malachi - Shaliach - The BRANCH}? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he islike a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:Mal 3:3And he shall sit asa refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto The LORD an offering in righteousness.Mal 3:4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto The LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. Apparently then, Y-a-h-u-w-e-h? E-lo-him does not come until sometime AFTER "The BRANCH" comes and sets "his feet" upon the Mount of Olives, gathers and reveals himself to the Elders, and then, they & he, will rebuild The Beit HaMikdash {The Temple}. THIS PROPHET LIKE UNTO MOSES {The Malachi, The Shaliach, The BRANCH} prepares the service for The Temple. Mal 3:2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he islike a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:Mal 3:3And he shall sit asa refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.Mal 3:4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. We shall turn unto Joel next... Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:35:17 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts For your consideration and comment. ? With Dr. Tabor?s words, I?m reminded that ? Several years ago, while I slept, I was given a Dream/Vision: I sat with the Scriptures in front of me. Someone stood behind me, reaching over my shoulder pointing down to the prophets. He drew forth a theme and stated it this way: "WHEN HE COMES, THE NATIONS SHALL LIFT UP A BANNER DECLARING, ?Y-H-W-H REIGNS?. The "HE" was not identified; But, I have always assumed that it meant the coming of the Messiah. Maybe I assumed wrong - The "HE" could very well have meant HaShem Himself. But....maybe not. You will not catch me murmuring and complaining either way. However, I?ll take a closer look. Y?all let me know what you think...No doubt that the varying 1st, 2nd, 3rd, person speech, with the several personalities involved in Zachariah gets complicated....and I don?t claim to have it all together...this may take a little meditation....but, here goes...? Zec 2:1 ?{ Does this YOUNG MAN begin to speak in the first person in verse 6? And, if so, is he The Prophet like unto Moses, in whose mouth, HaShem puts His words? Deut 18:15 ?me[the young man] unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that touches you touches the apple of HIS [HaShem] eye. I [the young man] will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me [the young man]. Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come[the young man], and I [the young man]will dwellin the midst of thee, saith the LORD. Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation." In the next chapter, Is this, BRANCH [Tsemech], not the same as the young man spoken of in chapter 2? Zec 3:8 HaShem says "... I will bring forth my servant, the BRANCH [TSEMECH]..." And then, we have 2 anointed ones standing before The BRANCH: Let?s save them for later! Zec 4:14 Then said he, "These [Is not The BRANCH [TSEMECH] the human Lord of the whole earth? - notice the Zacharaiah 9:10 - under HaShem?s Lordship, of course! Plenty of prophetic verses come to mind, if you?re unsure of this.].HASHEM SPEAKS OF THE BRANCH TO THE DAUGHTERS OF JERUSALEM Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just [a Tsadiq], and having salvation [Yasha]; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zec 9:10 And I [HaShem] will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he [The Young Man - The BRANCH?] shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. ?AND THEN, HASHEM SPEAKS DIRECTLY TO THE BRANCH Zec 9:11 As for thee also [ the young man - the BRANCH], by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.? BACKING UP A BIT...LET?S TEST AGAIN...TO SEE IF THERE CONTINUES TO BE COHERENCY IN MY ASSERTION THAT "the young man is The Branch" SENT BY HaShem: Zec 6:9 And the word of the LORD came unto me [Zacahariah], saying, mypeople: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent meunto thee. arethe two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. Zec 6:10 "Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah; Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;"Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, "Thus speaks the LORD of hosts, saying, ?Behold and the man whose name is The BRANCH; and heshall grow up [branch] out of his place, and heshall build the temple of the LORD: Zec 6:13 Even heshall build the temple of the LORD; heme..."}heshall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both....?" me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD, your God.Surely, it makes no sense, that HASHEM?s FEET stand on the mount of olives and then, ...the LORD my G-d shall come.... How can HE Come, when HE is already here, standing on the Mount of Olives? Surely, it is The Branch, HIS Shaliach, who stands upon the Mt of Olives first??? The end result will be thus: Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.? **The BRANCH is SENT/Shalach A Sent One/A SHALIACH / An APOSTLE A sent one is an agent. And this invokes the LAW OF AGENCY...In discussing the mechanism of legal agency, Jewish law sees the "principal" [the sender] working through the "emissary" [the sent one] in three possible ways: 1) The emissary's [the sent one?s] final achievement is attributed to the principal [the Sender] 2) The emissary's [the sent one?s] every action is attributed to the principal [the Sender] 3) The emissary [the sent one] completely embodies the principal [the Sender].We can see this principle spelled out very clearly in The Torah and Prophets. Can we not? ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy shall bear the glory, {Remember: Zachariah 2:8 "...After the glory hath HE [HaShem] sent and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and ? So, WHO ARE WE LOOKING FOR TO APPEAR FIRST? THE SENDER OR THE SENT ONE???DOES THE YOUNG MAN SPEAK AGAIN? Zec 6:15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [gheber 1397 - the young man?] that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered...? IN CHAPTER 14: THERE SEEMS TO BE A PROGRESSION FROM VERSE 4 : First: THE SENT ONE [THE BRANCH] VERSE 5: Second: THE SENDER finally comes with His Holy Ones Is this not a progression? I, personally, lean toward the thought that this represents a perfect example of The Shaliach completely embodying the Sender {**see the principle spelled out below}. Is there not a progression from verse 4 to verse 5? Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives... {"his feet"....Is this not "the young man, The BRANCH, The Shepherd...The Gheber...my fellow...The Prophet like unto Moses with the words of HaShem in his mouth?} Zec 14:5 ...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.} Zec 2:6 "Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwells with the daughter of Babylon. Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath HE [HaShem] sent Zec 2:9 For, behold, Remember the verse: The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will a manwith a measuring line in his hand. Zec 2:2 Then said I [Zachariah] , Whither goest thou? And hesaid unto me, "To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof." Zec 2:3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, Zec 2:4 And said unto him, "Run, speak to this young man, saying, "Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: Zec 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her." I [Zachariah] lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold I awakened. ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:27:27 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Shalom James & Marvin, ? Very interesting conversation. I wonder if this is what?this mother was thinking of when she was?making her request? Mat 20:20Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.Mat 20:21And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. Mat 20:22 Mat 20:23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to themfor whom it is prepared of my Father.So, seemingly, the center position is taken (the one like unto Moses), that is, while we can wonder about the two assistants. But?Yeshua answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. ? I'll probably be watching FOX rather than CNN, but, I'm sure they'll all be carrying this live - that is, if New York is still standing. Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:06:39 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Marvin, I think you are right on with this reading of the Prophets though I am not sure the "moshiach" is the main one awaited, but rather the Prophet like Moses, whom Zechariah calls the "Adon" of the earth, before whom the two messiahs stand. Indeed, they are his assistants. He is the one who anoints but is not himself anointed--by any human at least. As you know, we have discussed this for many years, the three figures, with the middle one representing HaShem directly, as Moses did.? That seems to be the clear meaning of Zechariah 2:10-13 [vs in Hebrew text are 2:14-17], and as you note, HaShem SENDS this one, who speaks here in the 1st person. This language is very strange and was pointed out by David Horowitz many times, and it is the same "style" of reference we find with Moses, e.g. Deut 29:1-5 (note carefully the pronouns, with Moses as speaker). The one who speaks "mouth to mouth" with HaShem is center stage, assisted by his two anointed ones. Both the Christian and the Jewish exclusive focus on the Davidic figure puts this out of balance. You will remember I cover this extensively in Restoring Abrahamic Faith, and the new edition will go into it even more clearly. Zechariah is the key text, from start to finish. I think only in Zech 8-14 do you get some sense of the "chronology" of things, in terms of how they unfold. All eyes turn to Jerusalem. I also think you are correct to see that this is not just bells and whistles and cosmic display. It will come in history, just as did the Exodus, and only gradually will various peoples understand. In other words, it will be covered by CNN, so to speak... Take care, James On Aug 13, 2008, at 8:12 AM, mhyde wrote: Why do the nations suddenly stream up to? Zion ??? If we look at Zechariah 2 it would seem that just as Psa. 102 ?13?Thou shalt arise,?and?have mercy upon? Zion : for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.???????So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.?16?When the LORD shall build up? Zion , he shall appear in his glory. ?This same language of "glory and defense" is found in?Isa 4:5, ?alluding to the pillar of cloud and fire which defended and enlightened? Israel?in the desert. ?Zec 8:?6?Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.?7?Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;?8?And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of? Jerusalem : and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. As per Isa. 11:11-12. ? ? It seems to me form this text in Zechariah that God?s glory will appear, the pillar of fire and the cloud will appear and this Glory that Moses got a glimpse of, the whole world with get to see. This happens at an appointed time and THEN the nations start coming up to joined themselves to the God of Israel. ? ?Also, in the text of Zechariah there seem to be two(2) speakers. One being YHVH and the other his servant, whom most would identify with Moshaich.?? As I read through this again, ?I get the sense that YHVH will reveal himself again as in the wilderness and also their will be this servant figure present also.? Vs. 9 speaks of the ?shaking of the hand? at the nations as in Isa.11:15, 19:16, this will get peoples attention. Verse 11 speaks of ?many nations shall joined to the Lord in that day?.? ? Coming from a christian background were the world and all world / future / events happen with the ?christian church? at the center, I am being to think the more correct course of events will be that Judea / Israel will be at the center and the rest of the world will be standing on the outside looking on?.? Just like when God brought the children home the first time when he brought them out of? Egypt .? Most religious people will look for the supernatural events.? But, what if Moshiach just quietly slips in to town riding on a donkey?? What if he works quietly behind the scenes until he slowly becomes center stage? ??We often read the text of the earth splitting, the heavens shaking and the ?every eye shall behold? and want to think of some super natural earth shaking event were we all fall on our face?s and turned to God.? But, from these scriptures and others it seems to indicate a process and ?not and event that happens in a milli-second. ? When God spoke to Moses Exo. 3, telling him to go get the people of? Israel?his children, Moses was not worried about Pharaoh letting them go! Moses was worried that the children ?of? Israel?would not believe him and then willingly follow him out.? Moses was told to go to the elders of? Israel , he pleaded his case there first; then with the elders of? Israel?he went before the King of Egypt. V.29 Moses and Aaron gather together the elders of? Israel .? V.30 Moses spoke all the words and did all the signs. V31 The people (AM) believed. ? Therefore, my I suggest that the ?glory of YHVH? and Moshiach will be in? Israel?/? Judea?before the world is made aware of it? ? Shalom, Marvin ? ? ________________________________ From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]?On Behalf Of?James Tabor Sent:?Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:38 PM To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts ? I agree and I expand on this in the new version of?Restoring Abrahamic Faith.? ? It seems to me the "Seven" are minimal and a good "identification" marker vis-a-vis Judaism. For one to say, "I just know in my heart" or because I am from the NW Celtic peoples, that I am of the "tribes," might wash if someone has read the research of people like Hulley, but in general it can just sound nutty. I often say, "Noahide" is not my definition of myself, but it is a good Jewish definition of someone who has my God/Torah/Israel orientation and who is not a halachically Jewish. I find it most functional and I have no objection to Judaism "defining itself." I think they had no choice given the 2000 years of Exile.? ? But even more interesting the question you touch on--what will cause the attraction, of Zechariah 2 & 8; Isaiah 2, and Jeremiah 7, and many other passages. WHY do the nations suddenly stream up to? Zion . ?I have my ideas, but wonder if anyone else wants to jump in here... ? James ? ? On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:20 AM, mhyde wrote: Ross and others, ? I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross was teaching.?? As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something.??? I have always had a question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to? Zionand the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to their religion.? Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying , ?teach us for we know that God is with you?.? Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , ?is the gate at the outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this is the Eastern gate. ? At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. ?Almost all of the commandments are mentioned, representive of both tablets.?? What I see here is that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code.?? Israel?as a whole, both Judea?and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts.?? ? Any thoughts or comments? ? Shalom, marvin?? _______________________________________________ ?_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080821/e572b954/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Aug 22 03:52:38 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:52:38 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM Message-ID: <48AE7E56.7050609@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080822/10e0583a/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Fri Aug 22 04:53:15 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 05:53:15 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts In-Reply-To: <690157.82683.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <690157.82683.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b901c9043c$e709d560$0400a8c0@marvin> Tracy, I have not forgotten you, been really busy. Take another look at verse 2 and 3. Is the "his", "he" referring to the messenger or to the one doing the sending? I would suggested the refiner and one who does the purifying is none other then Hashem. Shalom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:04 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Sirs, with your permission, may I continue, fully open to your imput: Many directions to "branch" out here [no pun intended]; However, may I follow this vein for now? It is quite appropo that I move on to Malachi Chapter 3 here, especially since "The BRANCH" is one of the subjects of the first blessing that our brother Yehudah prays daily, The Amidah Prayer, and is 'capped', so to speak, with this chapter three verse three. How marvelous the sages have arranged this prayer!!! And I encourage ALL Ephramites to begin to pray this AMIDAH prayer!! For it encapsulates the prophetic flow of the prophets!! Mal 3:1 Behold, I {HaShem} will send {shalach} My Messenger {Malachi - Shaliach[sent one] - The BRANCH}, and he {the Shaliach - The BRANCH} shall prepare the way before me {HaShem}: and the Lord {HaShem}, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His Temple {which has been rebuilt by The BRANCH - remember Zachariah 6:12, 13}. And The Messenger {Malachi - Shaliach - The BRANCH} of the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming {The One Like Unto Moses - Malachi - Shaliach - The BRANCH}? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto The LORD an offering in righteousness. Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto The LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. Apparently then, Y-a-h-u-w-e-h E-lo-him does not come until sometime AFTER "The BRANCH" comes and sets "his feet" upon the Mount of Olives, gathers and reveals himself to the Elders, and then, they & he, will rebuild The Beit HaMikdash {The Temple}. THIS PROPHET LIKE UNTO MOSES {The Malachi, The Shaliach, The BRANCH} prepares the service for The Temple. Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. We shall turn unto Joel next... Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:35:17 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts For your consideration and comment. With Dr. Tabor's words, I'm reminded that Several years ago, while I slept, I was given a Dream/Vision: I sat with the Scriptures in front of me. Someone stood behind me, reaching over my shoulder pointing down to the prophets. He drew forth a theme and stated it this way: "WHEN HE COMES, THE NATIONS SHALL LIFT UP A BANNER DECLARING, 'Y-H-W-H REIGNS'. I awakened. The "HE" was not identified; But, I have always assumed that it meant the coming of the Messiah. Maybe I assumed wrong - The "HE" could very well have meant HaShem Himself. But....maybe not. You will not catch me murmuring and complaining either way. However, I'll take a closer look. Y'all let me know what you think...No doubt that the varying 1st, 2nd, 3rd, person speech, with the several personalities involved in Zachariah gets complicated....and I don't claim to have it all together...this may take a little meditation....but, here goes... Zec 2:1 I [Zachariah] lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand. Zec 2:2 Then said I [Zachariah] , Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, "To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof." Zec 2:3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, Zec 2:4 And said unto him, "Run, speak to this young man, saying, "Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: Zec 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her." { Does this YOUNG MAN begin to speak in the first person in verse 6? And, if so, is he The Prophet like unto Moses, in whose mouth, HaShem puts His words? Remember the verse: Deut 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.} Zec 2:6 "Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwells with the daughter of Babylon. Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath HE [HaShem] sent me [the young man] unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that touches you touches the apple of HIS [HaShem] eye. Zec 2:9 For, behold, I [the young man] will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me [the young man]. Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come [the young man], and I [the young man] will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation." In the next chapter, Is this, BRANCH [Tsemech], not the same as the young man spoken of in chapter 2? Zec 3:8 HaShem says "... I will bring forth my servant, the BRANCH [TSEMECH]..." And then, we have 2 anointed ones standing before The BRANCH: Let's save them for later! Zec 4:14 Then said he, "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. [Is not The BRANCH [TSEMECH] the human Lord of the whole earth? - notice the Zacharaiah 9:10 - under HaShem's Lordship, of course! Plenty of prophetic verses come to mind, if you're unsure of this.]. HASHEM SPEAKS OF THE BRANCH TO THE DAUGHTERS OF JERUSALEM Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just [a Tsadiq], and having salvation [Yasha]; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zec 9:10 And I [HaShem] will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he [The Young Man - The BRANCH?] shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. AND THEN, HASHEM SPEAKS DIRECTLY TO THE BRANCH Zec 9:11 As for thee also [ the young man - the BRANCH], by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. BACKING UP A BIT...LET'S TEST AGAIN...TO SEE IF THERE CONTINUES TO BE COHERENCY IN MY ASSERTION THAT "the young man is The Branch" SENT BY HaShem: Zec 6:9 And the word of the LORD came unto me [Zacahariah], saying, Zec 6:10 "Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah; Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;" Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, "Thus speaks the LORD of hosts, saying, 'Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up [branch] out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, {Remember: Zachariah 2:8 "...After the glory hath HE [HaShem] sent me..."} and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both....'" So, WHO ARE WE LOOKING FOR TO APPEAR FIRST? THE SENDER OR THE SENT ONE??? DOES THE YOUNG MAN SPEAK AGAIN? Zec 6:15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD, your God. Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [gheber 1397 - the young man?] that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered... IN CHAPTER 14: THERE SEEMS TO BE A PROGRESSION FROM VERSE 4 : First: THE SENT ONE [THE BRANCH] VERSE 5: Second: THE SENDER finally comes with His Holy Ones Is this not a progression? I, personally, lean toward the thought that this represents a perfect example of The Shaliach completely embodying the Sender {**see the principle spelled out below}. Is there not a progression from verse 4 to verse 5? Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives... {"his feet"....Is this not "the young man, The BRANCH, The Shepherd...The Gheber...my fellow...The Prophet like unto Moses with the words of HaShem in his mouth?} Zec 14:5 ...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Surely, it makes no sense, that HASHEM's FEET stand on the mount of olives and then, ...the LORD my G-d shall come.... How can HE Come, when HE is already here, standing on the Mount of Olives? Surely, it is The Branch, HIS Shaliach, who stands upon the Mt of Olives first??? The end result will be thus: Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. **The BRANCH is SENT/Shalach A Sent One/A SHALIACH / An APOSTLE A sent one is an agent. And this invokes the LAW OF AGENCY... In discussing the mechanism of legal agency, Jewish law sees the "principal" [the sender] working through the "emissary" [the sent one] in three possible ways: 1) The emissary's [the sent one's] final achievement is attributed to the principal [the Sender] 2) The emissary's [the sent one's] every action is attributed to the principal [the Sender] 3) The emissary [the sent one] completely embodies the principal [the Sender]. We can see this principle spelled out very clearly in The Torah and Prophets. Can we not? Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:27:27 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Shalom James & Marvin, Very interesting conversation. I wonder if this is what this mother was thinking of when she was making her request? Mat 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. Mat 20:22 But Yeshua answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. So, seemingly, the center position is taken (the one like unto Moses), that is, while we can wonder about the two assistants. I'll probably be watching FOX rather than CNN, but, I'm sure they'll all be carrying this live - that is, if New York is still standing. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:06:39 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Marvin, I think you are right on with this reading of the Prophets though I am not sure the "moshiach" is the main one awaited, but rather the Prophet like Moses, whom Zechariah calls the "Adon" of the earth, before whom the two messiahs stand. Indeed, they are his assistants. He is the one who anoints but is not himself anointed--by any human at least. As you know, we have discussed this for many years, the three figures, with the middle one representing HaShem directly, as Moses did. That seems to be the clear meaning of Zechariah 2:10-13 [vs in Hebrew text are 2:14-17], and as you note, HaShem SENDS this one, who speaks here in the 1st person. This language is very strange and was pointed out by David Horowitz many times, and it is the same "style" of reference we find with Moses, e.g. Deut 29:1-5 (note carefully the pronouns, with Moses as speaker). The one who speaks "mouth to mouth" with HaShem is center stage, assisted by his two anointed ones. Both the Christian and the Jewish exclusive focus on the Davidic figure puts this out of balance. You will remember I cover this extensively in Restoring Abrahamic Faith, and the new edition will go into it even more clearly. Zechariah is the key text, from start to finish. I think only in Zech 8-14 do you get some sense of the "chronology" of things, in terms of how they unfold. All eyes turn to Jerusalem. I also think you are correct to see that this is not just bells and whistles and cosmic display. It will come in history, just as did the Exodus, and only gradually will various peoples understand. In other words, it will be covered by CNN, so to speak... Take care, James On Aug 13, 2008, at 8:12 AM, mhyde wrote: Why do the nations suddenly stream up to Zion ? If we look at Zechariah 2 it would seem that just as Psa. 102 13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion : for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come. ... So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory. 16 When the LORD shall build up Zion , he shall appear in his glory. This same language of "glory and defense" is found in Isa 4:5, alluding to the pillar of cloud and fire which defended and enlightened Israel in the desert. Zec 8: 6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem : and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. As per Isa. 11:11-12. It seems to me form this text in Zechariah that God's glory will appear, the pillar of fire and the cloud will appear and this Glory that Moses got a glimpse of, the whole world with get to see. This happens at an appointed time and THEN the nations start coming up to joined themselves to the God of Israel. Also, in the text of Zechariah there seem to be two(2) speakers. One being YHVH and the other his servant, whom most would identify with Moshaich. As I read through this again, I get the sense that YHVH will reveal himself again as in the wilderness and also their will be this servant figure present also. Vs. 9 speaks of the "shaking of the hand" at the nations as in Isa.11:15, 19:16, this will get peoples attention. Verse 11 speaks of "many nations shall joined to the Lord in that day". Coming from a christian background were the world and all world / future / events happen with the "christian church" at the center, I am being to think the more correct course of events will be that Judea / Israel will be at the center and the rest of the world will be standing on the outside looking on.. Just like when God brought the children home the first time when he brought them out of Egypt . Most religious people will look for the supernatural events. But, what if Moshiach just quietly slips in to town riding on a donkey? What if he works quietly behind the scenes until he slowly becomes center stage? We often read the text of the earth splitting, the heavens shaking and the "every eye shall behold" and want to think of some super natural earth shaking event were we all fall on our face's and turned to God. But, from these scriptures and others it seems to indicate a process and not and event that happens in a milli-second. When God spoke to Moses Exo. 3, telling him to go get the people of Israel his children, Moses was not worried about Pharaoh letting them go! Moses was worried that the children of Israel would not believe him and then willingly follow him out. Moses was told to go to the elders of Israel , he pleaded his case there first; then with the elders of Israel he went before the King of Egypt. V.29 Moses and Aaron gather together the elders of Israel . V.30 Moses spoke all the words and did all the signs. V31 The people (AM) believed. Therefore, my I suggest that the "glory of YHVH" and Moshiach will be in Israel / Judea before the world is made aware of it? Shalom, Marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:38 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts I agree and I expand on this in the new version of Restoring Abrahamic Faith. It seems to me the "Seven" are minimal and a good "identification" marker vis-a-vis Judaism. For one to say, "I just know in my heart" or because I am from the NW Celtic peoples, that I am of the "tribes," might wash if someone has read the research of people like Hulley, but in general it can just sound nutty. I often say, "Noahide" is not my definition of myself, but it is a good Jewish definition of someone who has my God/Torah/Israel orientation and who is not a halachically Jewish. I find it most functional and I have no objection to Judaism "defining itself." I think they had no choice given the 2000 years of Exile. But even more interesting the question you touch on--what will cause the attraction, of Zechariah 2 & 8; Isaiah 2, and Jeremiah 7, and many other passages. WHY do the nations suddenly stream up to Zion . I have my ideas, but wonder if anyone else wants to jump in here... James On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:20 AM, mhyde wrote: Ross and others, I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross was teaching. As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something. I have always had a question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to Zionand the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to their religion. Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying , "teach us for we know that God is with you". Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , is the gate at the outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this is the Eastern gate. At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. Almost all of the commandments are mentioned, representive of both tablets. What I see here is that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code. Israel as a whole, both Judea and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts. Any thoughts or comments? Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080822/65d13db7/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 06:38:50 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 04:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Message-ID: <502530.29304.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello Marvin, I did as you suggested. However, 'the flow' still suggests to me, that this refining process is being carried out by HaShem's Messenger. This refining process seems to be?part of the 'preparing the way' for HaShem's return. I'm trying to pay close attention to the contrast of the "I" and "he". I realize translations differ slightly in punctuation. ??????????? Mal 3:1....And?The Messenger {Malachi - Shaliach - The BRANCH} of the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. HaShem comes after "the way" is prepared in verse five: ??? Mal 3:5And I will come near to you to judgment... Thanks, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 5:53:15 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Tracy, ? I have not forgotten you, been really busy.?? Take another look at verse 2 and 3. Is the ?his?, ?he? referring to the messenger or to the one doing the sending?? I would suggested the refiner and one who does the purifying is none other then Hashem. ? Shalom ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:04 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts ? Sirs, with your permission, may I continue, fully open to your imput: Many directions to "branch" out here [no pun intended]; However,?may I?follow this vein for now? ? It is quite appropo that I move on to Malachi Chapter 3 here, especially since "The BRANCH" is?one of the?subjects of the first blessing that our brother Yehudah prays daily,?The Amidah Prayer, and is 'capped', so to speak, with this chapter three verse three. ?How marvelous the sages have arranged this prayer!!!? And I encourage ALL Ephramites to begin to pray this AMIDAH prayer!! For it encapsulates the prophetic flow of the prophets!! Mal 3:1 Behold, I {HaShem} will send {shalach} My Messenger {Malachi - Shaliach[sent one]?- The BRANCH}, and he {the Shaliach - The BRANCH} shall prepare the way before me {HaShem}: and the Lord {HaShem}, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His Temple {which has been rebuilt by The BRANCH - remember Zachariah 6:12, 13}.?And?The Messenger {Malachi - Shaliach - The BRANCH} of the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming {The One Like Unto Moses - Malachi - Shaliach - The BRANCH}? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto The LORD an offering in righteousness. Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto The LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. Apparently then, Y-a-h-u-w-e-h? E-lo-him does not come until sometime AFTER "The BRANCH" comes and sets "his feet" upon the Mount of Olives, gathers and reveals himself to the Elders, and then, they & he, will rebuild The Beit HaMikdash {The Temple}. ? THIS PROPHET LIKE UNTO MOSES {The Malachi, The Shaliach, The BRANCH} prepares the service for The Temple. Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. We shall turn unto Joel next... ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? ? ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:35:17 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts For your consideration and comment. ? With Dr. Tabor?s words, I?m reminded that ? Several years ago, while I slept, I was given a Dream/Vision: I sat with the Scriptures in front of me. Someone stood behind me, reaching over my shoulder pointing down to the prophets. He drew forth a theme and stated it this way: "WHEN HE COMES, THE NATIONS SHALL LIFT UP A BANNER DECLARING, ?Y-H-W-H REIGNS?. I awakened. The "HE" was not identified; But, I have always assumed that it meant the coming of the Messiah. Maybe I assumed wrong - The "HE" could very well have meant HaShem Himself. But....maybe not. You will not catch me murmuring and complaining either way. However, I?ll take a closer look. Y?all let me know what you think...No doubt that the varying 1st, 2nd, 3rd, person speech, with the several personalities involved in Zachariah gets complicated....and I don?t claim to have it all together...this may take a little meditation....but, here goes... ? Zec 2:1I [Zachariah] lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a manwith a measuring line in his hand. Zec 2:2 Then said I [Zachariah] , Whither goest thou? And hesaid unto me, "To measure Jerusalem , to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof." Zec 2:3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, Zec 2:4 And said unto him, "Run, speak to this young man, saying, "Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: Zec 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her." ? { Does this YOUNG MAN begin to speak in the first person in verse 6? And, if so, is he The Prophet like unto Moses, in whose mouth, HaShem puts His words?Remember the verse: Deut 18:15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.} ? Zec 2:6 "Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwells with the daughter of Babylon . Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath HE [HaShem] sent me[the young man] unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that touches you touches the apple of HIS [HaShem] eye. Zec 2:9 For, behold, I [the young man] will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me [the young man]. Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion : for, lo, I come[the young man], and I [the young man]will dwellin the midst of thee, saith the LORD. Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be mypeople: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent meunto thee. Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation." In the next chapter, Is this, BRANCH [Tsemech], not the same as the young man spoken of in chapter 2? Zec 3:8 HaShem says "... I will bring forth my servant, the BRANCH [TSEMECH]..." And then, we have 2 anointed ones standing before The BRANCH: Let?s save them for later! Zec 4:14 Then said he, "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. [Is not The BRANCH [TSEMECH] the human Lord of the whole earth? - notice the Zacharaiah 9:10 - under HaShem?s Lordship, of course! Plenty of prophetic verses come to mind, if you?re unsure of this.]. HASHEM SPEAKS OF THE BRANCH TO THE DAUGHTERS OF JERUSALEM Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion ; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem : behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just [a Tsadiq], and having salvation [Yasha]; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zec 9:10 And I [HaShem] will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem , and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he [The Young Man - The BRANCH?] shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. ? AND THEN, HASHEM SPEAKS DIRECTLY TO THE BRANCH Zec 9:11 As for thee also [ the young man - the BRANCH], by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. ? BACKING UP A BIT...LET?S TEST AGAIN...TO SEE IF THERE CONTINUES TO BE COHERENCY IN MY ASSERTION THAT "the young man is The Branch" SENT BY HaShem: Zec 6:9 And the word of the LORD came unto me [Zacahariah], saying, Zec 6:10 "Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah; Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;" Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, "Thus speaks the LORD of hosts, saying, ?Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and heshall grow up [branch] out of his place, and heshall build the temple of the LORD: Zec 6:13 Even heshall build the temple of the LORD; and heshall bear the glory, {Remember: Zachariah 2:8 "...After the glory hath HE [HaShem] sent me..."} and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and heshall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both....?" ? So, WHO ARE WE LOOKING FOR TO APPEAR FIRST? THE SENDER OR THE SENT ONE??? DOES THE YOUNG MAN SPEAK AGAIN? Zec 6:15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD, your God. Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [gheber 1397 - the young man?] that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered... ? IN CHAPTER 14: THERE SEEMS TO BE A PROGRESSION FROM VERSE 4 : First: THE SENT ONE [THE BRANCH] VERSE 5: Second: THE SENDER finally comes with His Holy Ones Is this not a progression? I, personally, lean toward the thought that this represents a perfect example of The Shaliach completely embodying the Sender {**see the principle spelled out below}. Is there not a progression from verse 4 to verse 5? Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives... {"his feet"....Is this not "the young man, The BRANCH, The Shepherd...The Gheber...my fellow...The Prophet like unto Moses with the words of HaShem in his mouth?} Zec 14:5 ...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Surely, it makes no sense, that HASHEM?s FEET stand on the mount of olives and then, ...the LORD my G-d shall come.... How can HE Come, when HE is already here, standing on the Mount of Olives ? Surely, it is The Branch, HIS Shaliach, who stands upon the Mt of Olives first??? The end result will be thus: Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. ? **The BRANCH is SENT/Shalach A Sent One/A SHALIACH / An APOSTLE A sent one is an agent. And this invokes the LAW OF AGENCY... In discussing the mechanism of legal agency, Jewish law sees the "principal" [the sender] working through the "emissary" [the sent one] in three possible ways: 1) The emissary's [the sent one?s] final achievement is attributed to the principal [the Sender] 2) The emissary's [the sent one?s] every action is attributed to the principal [the Sender] 3) The emissary [the sent one] completely embodies the principal [the Sender]. We can see this principle spelled out very clearly in The Torah and Prophets. Can we not? ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:27:27 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Shalom James & Marvin, ? Very interesting conversation. I wonder if this is what?this mother was thinking of when she was?making her request? Mat 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. Mat 20:22 But?Yeshua answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. So, seemingly, the center position is taken (the one like unto Moses), that is, while we can wonder about the two assistants. ? I'll probably be watching FOX rather than CNN, but, I'm sure they'll all be carrying this live - that is, if New York is still standing. Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ----- Original Message ---- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:06:39 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Marvin, ? I think you are right on with this reading of the Prophets though I am not sure the "moshiach" is the main one awaited, but rather the Prophet like Moses, whom Zechariah calls the "Adon" of the earth, before whom the two messiahs stand. Indeed, they are his assistants. He is the one who anoints but is not himself anointed--by any human at least. As you know, we have discussed this for many years, the three figures, with the middle one representing HaShem directly, as Moses did.? ? That seems to be the clear meaning of Zechariah 2:10-13 [vs in Hebrew text are 2:14-17], and as you note, HaShem SENDS this one, who speaks here in the 1st person. This language is very strange and was pointed out by David Horowitz many times, and it is the same "style" of reference we find with Moses, e.g. Deut 29:1-5 (note carefully the pronouns, with Moses as speaker). The one who speaks "mouth to mouth" with HaShem is center stage, assisted by his two anointed ones. Both the Christian and the Jewish exclusive focus on the Davidic figure puts this out of balance. You will remember I cover this extensively in Restoring Abrahamic Faith, and the new edition will go into it even more clearly. ? Zechariah is the key text, from start to finish. I think only in Zech 8-14 do you get some sense of the "chronology" of things, in terms of how they unfold. All eyes turn to Jerusalem . I also think you are correct to see that this is not just bells and whistles and cosmic display. It will come in history, just as did the Exodus, and only gradually will various peoples understand. In other words, it will be covered by CNN, so to speak... ? Take care, ? James ? ? ? ? ? On Aug 13, 2008, at 8:12 AM, mhyde wrote: Why do the nations suddenly stream up to? Zion ??? If we look at Zechariah 2 it would seem that just as Psa. 102 ?13?Thou shalt arise,?and?have mercy upon? Zion : for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.???????So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.?16?When the LORD shall build up? Zion , he shall appear in his glory. ?This same language of "glory and defense" is found in?Isa 4:5, ?alluding to the pillar of cloud and fire which defended and enlightened? Israel?in the desert. ?Zec 8:?6?Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.?7?Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;?8?And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of? Jerusalem : and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. As per Isa. 11:11-12. ? ? It seems to me form this text in Zechariah that God?s glory will appear, the pillar of fire and the cloud will appear and this Glory that Moses got a glimpse of, the whole world with get to see. This happens at an appointed time and THEN the nations start coming up to joined themselves to the God of Israel. ? ?Also, in the text of Zechariah there seem to be two(2) speakers. One being YHVH and the other his servant, whom most would identify with Moshaich.?? As I read through this again, ?I get the sense that YHVH will reveal himself again as in the wilderness and also their will be this servant figure present also.? Vs. 9 speaks of the ?shaking of the hand? at the nations as in Isa.11:15, 19:16, this will get peoples attention. Verse 11 speaks of ?many nations shall joined to the Lord in that day?.? ? Coming from a christian background were the world and all world / future / events happen with the ?christian church? at the center, I am being to think the more correct course of events will be that Judea / Israel will be at the center and the rest of the world will be standing on the outside looking on?.? Just like when God brought the children home the first time when he brought them out of? Egypt .? Most religious people will look for the supernatural events.? But, what if Moshiach just quietly slips in to town riding on a donkey?? What if he works quietly behind the scenes until he slowly becomes center stage? ??We often read the text of the earth splitting, the heavens shaking and the ?every eye shall behold? and want to think of some super natural earth shaking event were we all fall on our face?s and turned to God.? But, from these scriptures and others it seems to indicate a process and ?not and event that happens in a milli-second. ? When God spoke to Moses Exo. 3, telling him to go get the people of? Israel?his children, Moses was not worried about Pharaoh letting them go! Moses was worried that the children ?of? Israel ?would not believe him and then willingly follow him out.? Moses was told to go to the elders of? Israel , he pleaded his case there first; then with the elders of? Israel?he went before the King of Egypt. V.29 Moses and Aaron gather together the elders of? Israel .? V.30 Moses spoke all the words and did all the signs. V31 The people (AM) believed. ? Therefore, my I suggest that the ?glory of YHVH? and Moshiach will be in? Israel?/? Judea?before the world is made aware of it? ? Shalom, Marvin ? ? ________________________________ From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]?On Behalf Of?James Tabor Sent:?Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:38 PM To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts ? I agree and I expand on this in the new version of?Restoring Abrahamic Faith.? ? It seems to me the "Seven" are minimal and a good "identification" marker vis-a-vis Judaism. For one to say, "I just know in my heart" or because I am from the NW Celtic peoples, that I am of the "tribes," might wash if someone has read the research of people like Hulley, but in general it can just sound nutty. I often say, "Noahide" is not my definition of myself, but it is a good Jewish definition of someone who has my God/Torah/Israel orientation and who is not a halachically Jewish. I find it most functional and I have no objection to Judaism "defining itself." I think they had no choice given the 2000 years of Exile.? ? But even more interesting the question you touch on--what will cause the attraction, of Zechariah 2 & 8; Isaiah 2, and Jeremiah 7, and many other passages. WHY do the nations suddenly stream up to? Zion . ?I have my ideas, but wonder if anyone else wants to jump in here... ? James ? ? On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:20 AM, mhyde wrote: ? Ross and others, ? I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross was teaching.?? As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something.??? I have always had a question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to? Zionand the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to their religion.? Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying , ?teach us for we know that God is with you?.? Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , ?is the gate at the outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this is the Eastern gate. ? At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. ?Almost all of the commandments are mentioned, representive of both tablets.?? What I see here is that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code.?? Israel?as a whole, both Judea?and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts.?? ? Any thoughts or comments? ? Shalom, marvin?? _______________________________________________ ? _______________________________________________ ? ? ? ? Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080822/f3c171f4/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Aug 22 14:01:40 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:01:40 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Something to consider.... Message-ID: Something worth thinking about...Shabbat Shalom Hanoch Small Tastings of Torah, Judaism and Spirituality by Rav Binny Freedman, Director Portion of Ekev (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001rAxaYRmlqRsPzioVUV7Lu6Hl6q0H2nZpvB19-pH93_sifSz_QrpTu_wJGtawC29TeaWbLT5EfN65B8bJgZObY-53Ci3pXTnp7lj6LjyrSNE-KVeQAmbWyYgj3PnEWAG cbCM3-jtCYCteQdmIWlUcVUnf5__KD7sn) Recently I received this fascinating story via e- mail: At the turn of the twentieth century, two of the wealthiest and most famous men in America was a pair of Jewish brothers named Nathan and Isidor Straus. Owners of R.H. Macy's Department Store and founders of the A&S (Abraham & Straus) chain, the brothers were multimillionaires, renowned for their philanthropy and social activism. In 1912, the brothers and their wives were touring Europe, when Nathan, the more ardent Zionist of the two, impulsively said one day, "Hey, why don't we hop over to Palestine?" Israel wasn't the tourist hotspot then that it is today. Its population was ravaged by disease, famine, and poverty; but the two had a strong sense of solidarity with their less fortunate brethren, and they also wanted to see the health and welfare centers they had endowed with their millions. However, after a week spent touring, Isidor Straus had had enough. "How many camels, hovels, and yeshivas can you see? It's time to go," Isidor decreed with edgy impatience in his voice. But Nathan refused to heed his brother's imperious command. It wasn't that he was oblivious to the hardships around him; it was precisely because of them that he wanted to stay. As he absorbed firsthand the vastness of the challenges his fellow Jews were coping with, he felt the burden of responsibility. "We can't leave now," he protested. "Look how much work has to be done here. We have to help. We have the means to help. We can't turn our backs on our people." "So we'll send more money," his brother snapped back. "I just want to get out of here." But Nathan felt that money simply wasn't enough. He felt that the Jews who lived under such dire circumstances in Palestine needed the brothers' very presence among them: their initiative, their leadership, and their ideas. Isidor disagreed. The two argued back and forth, and finally Isidor said, "If you insist, stay here. Ida and I are going back to America where we belong." The two separated. Isidor and his wife returned to Europe, while Nathan and his spouse stayed in Palestine, traveling the country and contributing huge sums of money to the establishment of education, health, and social welfare programs to benefit the needy. Nathan also financed the creation of a brand-new city on the shores of the Mediterranean. And since his name in Hebrew was Natan, and he was the city's chief donor, the founders named it after him and called it...Natanya. Meanwhile, back in Europe, Isidor Straus was preparing to sail home to America aboard an ocean liner for which he had also made reservations for his brother, Nathan, and his wife. "You must leave Palestine NOW!" he cabled his brother in an urgent telegram. "I have made reservations for you and if you don't get here soon, you'll miss the boat." But Nathan delayed. There was so much work to be done that he waited until the last possible moment to make the connection. By the time he reached London, it was April 12 and the liner had already left port in Southampton with Isidor and Ida Straus aboard. Nathan felt disconsolate that he had, as his brother had warned, "missed the boat." For this was no ordinary expedition, no common, everyday cruise that he had forfeited, but the much ballyhooed maiden voyage of the most famous ship of the century. This was the Titanic. Nathan Straus, grief-stricken and deeply mourning his brother and sister-in-law could not shake off his sense that he had had a rendezvous with history. The knowledge that he had avoided death permeated his consciousness for the rest of his life, and until his death in l931, he pursued his philanthropic activities with an intensity that was unrivaled in his time. Truly, his life was a blessing for the Jewish people. Today, Natanya is a scenic resort city of 200,000 and headquarters to Israel's thriving diamond trade - one of the most important industries in the country. And in almost every part of the city, there is some small reminder of Nathan Straus's largesse, his humanity, and love for his people. His legacy lives on.... What motivates some people to do more than just appreciate the blessings they have in their lives; and to actually be a vehicle for blessing? **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080822/ceb92c75/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Aug 22 15:34:19 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:34:19 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 In-Reply-To: <486226.40192.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <486226.40192.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200808222034.m7MKYI05012233@mail114c25.carrierzone.com> Tracy and All, While Hanoch is busy, I hastily assembled some ideas that have been in my head for some time.about Psalm 77. This psalm although a personal reflection in a troubled period of the author's life, it is prophetic in subtle ways if we look at the implications and subtle suggestions not just for individuals in similar circumstances but also for the "whole" nation of Israel. It reminds us to recall G-ds' deliverance of Israel in times past, and how He will likewise deliver Israel. Verses 5-6, 11, tell us to meditate on "the days of old and ancient times." This is exactly what 'lost" members of Israel are to do be they from any tribe. Verse 7 speaks of times, when the "casting off" period is to be recalled after a long time and His mercy to be reconsidered because it will be available again, when "their sentence" of exile is to be up, (referred to as the "warfare," (Isa. 40:2 KJV). See haftarah Vaetchanan of last week. Verses 12-13, can reminds us of the "Presence" and His ways disclosed to us in the "sanctuary" of prayers, what I call "the Mishkan of Prayers," because the Temple may not be available.... Verses 14-15 refer to "strength and [gathering] arm" both of which can be metaphors for his "redemptive agency... It may be that verse 15 is one of the quintessential keys to understand "understanding" by the Tribes when this "redemption" and gathering is to be considered by them at a time when all His mercy seems to be have been forgotten.... The "sons of Jacob" is the way of understanding who the descendents of Jacob are, primarily by Jews, and of Jews. Jews have so much forgotten about the ten tribes, that they look upon all Israelites as "Jews." This is similar to the way Renaissance painters painted Biblical scenes and personages in terms of Renaissance architecture and clothes of their own times. Though this is not the case all the time, it is the general outlook and view by most Jews, be they educated or not. They look for "Jewish" trappings among those they consider to be "the lost tribes" not realizing that after having forgotten their names for 2700 years, they will not have any "Jewish" trappings of nay sort. The "sons of Joseph" are mentioned separately here, even though they are the sons of Jacob, because it is a key to understanding as to "how to understand" "Israel" in the last days" when G-d's "strong redemptive and gathering arm" is to be considered to be working." This verse calls the prophesied readers' attention to the fact that there will be two groups of "Israel" in the last days, and the sons of Joseph will be "the other" group, headed by the descendents of Joseph, and with him the rest of the prophetic "Ephraim," those of Joseph and his companions, Ez. 37:15. It is helpful here to remember what "Jacob," popularly understood as "the Jews" in the last days will say in an aggregate, prophetic way, when they will run into the multitudes of Joseph's descendants, (as well as his companions) indentified with him as a group.when Joseph will reveal himself to his brethren. "Israel/ Jacob," i.e. "the Jews of the last days" will say the same thing in the last days as "he / Israel" said in 'the ancient times" to be recalled according to Psalm 77: : "And Israel beheld Joseph's sons and said, Who are these?" (Gen 48:8). We have to remember that Jacob was blind in his "last days" by the time died, a condition to be on him in his prophesied "Last Days." "Then shalt thou say in thine heart, "who has begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive and removing to and for? and who hath brought up these? Behold I was left alone, these, where had they been?" Isa. 49:21). See also Isa. 54:1 re "the desolate" wife," and . 15:21, Rachel weeping for her children, not knowing that they were to be increased in numbers, and renewing their strength "in the isles," Isa. 49:20., 42:4, 41:1, 5, 51:5, 42:4, The resolution of this "confusion and blindness" of Israel / Jacob toward identity is resolved in Isa. 63:-17when those those in the last days wondering about G-d's vengeance among the nations, especially the Edomite civilization of the last days, will be contemplating G-d's "saving arm," Isa. 63:5, and will remember the ancient Scriptures of old, the days and writings of Moses, Psalm 77:5, 20, Malachi 3:24. The descendents of Joseph's companions, in times of Jacob's trouble, (Jer. 30:7) will cry out just as in Psalm 77: "Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory. Where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? Are they restrained? (Isa. 63:15). "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not, thou O LORD art our gather, our redeemer, thy name is from everlasting. O LORD, why hast thou made us to err form they ways and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for Thy servants' sake, the tribes of Thine inheritance." Isa. 63:16-17). We know that Psalm 77 refers to times of Redemption, because the name of Joseph is spelled there with a heh in the middle, i.e. Yehoseph. Adding the heh, is indicative of the heh in the Tetragrammaton, when added to a name, as to that of Joshua, to be altered into Yehoshua, signifies HaShem's Guidance and redemptive factor added to one's identity. There is more to this, (especailly the meaning of the Heh), please add your contribution to this. Thanks, Shabbat Shalom, Steve At 05:43 AM 8/21/2008, you wrote: >Dear Hanoch, > >What does "the sons of Jacob and sons of Joseph" mean? Why does the >passage differentiate them in this way? > >Tracy > >----- Original Message ---- >From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:37:24 AM >Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 > > >The Lekarev Report >20 Av 5768 >August 21, 2008 >Shalom > >Hashem, Your way is in holiness; who is a great god like our G-d? >You are the G-d who does wonders; You have made known Your strength >among the peoples. >You have redeemed Your people with Your own arm, the sons of Jacob >and Joseph. > >Psalm 77:13-15 > > >---------- >Get the >MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More! > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080822/75ffd25a/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Aug 22 16:09:01 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:09:01 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Eikev Commentary by Rabbi Greenbaum. Message-ID: <200808222109.m7ML90Fa021280@mail2527.carrierzone.com> UNIVERSAL TORAH: EIKEV By Rabbi Avraham Greenbaum Torah Reading: EIKEV, Deuteronomy 7:12-11:25. Haftara: Isaiah 49:14-51:3. THE BOOK & THE SWORD; THE LOAF & THE STICK The Midrash on Parshas EIKEV teaches: "The Book and the Sword descended from heaven entwined together; the Loaf and the Rod descended from heaven entwined together" (Sifri). The Book -- the Torah -- brings blessing to the world if we observe it; but if not, a Sword is attached that wreaks the vengeance of the Covenant. The Loaf of Bread, the "staff of life", is given as G-d's blessing when we keep the Torah, but if we stray, the struggles of making a living can turn into a painful rod of punishment. This Midrash expresses the conditional nature of G-d's Covenant with Israel, a central theme in Eikev and one that appears with increasing emphasis as we advance through Deuteronomy. Eikev begins with the rich blessings and benefits that are the reward for keeping the laws of the Torah. Yet in the course of the parshah, Moses brings out in numerous different ways that these blessings and benefits may not be taken for granted: long-term possession of the Land of Israel and enjoyment of its blessings are strictly contingent upon proper observance of the Covenant on our part. This is clearly stated at the climax of the parshah (Deuteronomy 11:13-21), recited every day, night and morning, as the second paragraph of the SHEMA. "If you will surely listen. I will give the rain of your land in its time. and you will eat and be satisfied. But if you go astray. you will quickly be lost from the good land that HaShem is giving you." G-d wants that the benefits and blessings should truly be ours -- that we should have them not as a free gift which the recipient does not appreciate and which embarrasses him, but rather as something we have earned through our own efforts in the face of challenges and difficulties. G-d therefore sends many trials in life, and sometimes takes us through the very wilderness "in order to chastise you, to test you, to know what is in your heart and whether you will observe His commandments or not" (Deut. 8:2). We are here to learn a deep lesson that we have to know not just in our minds but within our very hearts. The lesson is, "that just as a man chastises his son [out of love] so HaShem your G-d chastises you" (ibid. 4. 5). We have to learn and know in our hearts that any suffering we endure and all the obstacles in our path are sent not because G-d wants to throw us down but rather because He wants us to strive harder to get up, in order to come to greater good. * * * THE BLESSED LAND The ultimate state of benefit and goodness is expressed in the Torah as Israel living securely in their own land "from the river to the sea" (Deut. 11:24), observing the Torah and enjoying all the blessings of the land. The rectified Land of Israel of this world is to be the earthly replica of the essential Land of Israel, which is the Land of the Living inherited forever by the meek and righteous in the World to Come. Nowhere in the Torah is there greater praise of the holy Land of Israel than throughout our parshah of Eikev. It is "a good land, a land of streams of water, springs and deep sources emerging in the valleys and in the mountains. A land of wheat and barley and vines and fig trees and pomegranates, a land of oily olives and date-honey. A land in which you will eat bread not in poverty -- you will not lack anything in it: it is a land whose stones are iron and from whose mountains you will hew copper. And you will eat and be satisfied and bless HaShem your G-d over the good land He has given you" (Deut. 8:7-10). "For the land to which you are coming in order to inherit it is not like the land of Egypt which you left, where you sow your seed and water the land on foot like a vegetable garden. But the land that you are passing over to inherit is a land of mountains and valleys; it drinks water according to the rain of the heavens. It is a land that HaShem your G-d seeks; the eyes of HaShem your G-d are always on it from the beginning of the year to the end of the year" (Deut. 11:10-12). The actual country of Israel is one of exquisite beauty and grace, with its ever-changing landscape of mountains, hills and valleys and plains. The entire country is a tiny part of the entire earth, yet nothing is lacking, from the ski slopes of Mount Hermon to the arid Negev desert. The seven fruits for which Israel is particularly praised are all of exceptional nutritional value as well as providing numerous other benefits. Almost every other conceivable variety of fruits, vegetables and spices also grows somewhere in Israel. Why so many different species all grow so well in this tiny land is explained in the Midrash, which teaches that subterranean energy channels emanate from the "Foundation Stone" on the Temple Mount, the source of all creation, spreading throughout Israel, and fanning out from there to all parts of the world. Each channel has the power to stimulate a particular species. If people knew the exact location of these subterranean channels, they would be able to grow any kind of tree or plant they wanted (Kohelet Rabbah 2:7; see Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom p. 167). The key difference between Israel and Egypt, which represents all other lands, lies in the water economy, which is the key to agriculture and therefore to the whole economy. In Egypt, the main source of water is the Nile, whose annual rise is one of the fixed regularities of nature. For the farmer in Egypt, making a living is less of a trial of faith. He knows when the river can be expected to rise, and he knows it is up to him to put in the "foot-work", carrying water from field to field to irrigate his crops so as to produce food. It is easy for him to come to believe that everything works according to the laws of nature, and that his own "foot-work" (operating the natural causes) is what "produces" his food and livelihood. Israel's precarious dependence on rain from heaven for its water supply makes it harder to fall into the error of believing that we single-handedly "produce" our own livelihood through our own material efforts. We depend on G-d. No matter how efficiently we till our fields, if the rains don't come from heaven, we will not be able to produce anything. The rainfall in the Land of Israel is temperamental! Whether the rains fall sparsely or in abundance does not depend on anything we can do on the material plane. Rather, it represents G-d's response to our efforts on the moral and spiritual planes of our lives. The rainfall and everything else in Israel are subject to G-d's direct supervision in every detail, and thus, "the eyes of HaShem your G-d are always on it from the beginning of the year to the end of the year". The purpose of being in the Land of Israel is to live in a state of closeness and interactivity with G-d, understanding that in everything we do in this world we are "partners" with Him. We are here to earn the goodness we enjoy through our own efforts, but we must understand that our efforts can only succeed when they are in alignment with His will as expressed in the Torah. It is a dangerous sin to believe that "my power and the strength of my hand have made for me all this prosperity" (Deut. 8:17). On the contrary, it is necessary to remember always that "It is He who gives you the power to produce prosperity" (ibid. v.18). * * * WHAT DOES G-D ASK OF YOU? In parshas Eikev one of the main focuses of Moses' reproof is the sin of the Golden Calf. This represents the exact opposite of the relationship with wealth and prosperity that G-d wants in the rectified Land of Israel. The sin of the Golden Calf represents the pursuit of material prosperity and pleasure for their own sake. Putting their own strength, power and pleasure at the center of the world drives men into forgetfulness: man forgets G-d. G-d wants man to be blessed with material wealth not for its own sake, but because when his needs are provided he can better devote himself to the pursuit of the knowledge of G-d and His Torah. In the rectified Land of Israel, prosperity leads to . "And you shall eat and be satisfied and bless HaShem your G-d" (Deut. 8:10). This verse contains the commandment to bless G-d after eating, from which the sages also derived the obligation to bless Him before eating or partaking of other material pleasures. The blessing before and after eating elevates it from the level of a mere physical function to an act of service that brings us closer to G-d by enhancing our awareness of His hand in providing our livelihood. The essence of what G-d asks of us, as expressed in our parshah, is to seek awareness and knowledge of G-d in all the different aspects of our lives. "And now, Israel, what (MAH) does HaShem your G-d ask of you except to revere HaShem your G-d, to go in all His ways, to love Him and to serve HaShem your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul" (Deut. 10:12). The Rabbis taught that what G-d asks of us -- MAH -- is actually ME'AH, "one hundred", alluding to the one hundred blessings that make up the daily order of our prayers (the morning blessings, the blessings before and after food and the thrice-repeated 18 blessings of the Amidah standing prayer). By regularly blessing G-d throughout the day and praying to Him for all the different specifics in our lives, we heighten our consciousness of His active involvement in every area of our lives. This is how we overcome "forgetfulness". Shabbat Shalom!!! Avraham Yehoshua Greenbaum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080822/7a12b668/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 22 21:19:58 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 02:19:58 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Ezra update Message-ID: <082320080219.7036.48AF73CD000A790B00001B7C22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> All, I thought you might like to put a face with the name, and get the latest update... Thank you beyond words for your prayers, Glenn View full size Dear Folks: Here's a picture of Ezra and his bear he built at the "Build-a-Bear Workshop" (it's one of those Mall things...!) He's doing a little better - out of the hospital and out of immediate danger. A combination of superstrong steroids and sodium helped stabilize the pressure on the brain, so that he was no longer hallucinating, vomiting, or in extreme pain. The weakness on his right side has lessened, so the Drs. don't think he had a stroke, but there may be some permanent weakness. He had to go back in today (Wednesday) for a blood transfusion, which takes most of the day, as he has to have "live" blood straight from a donor. They may start a new round of different chemo as early as next week, but he can't until his blood stabilizes. Needless to say we are all emotional wrecks. Micah is holding up as well as can be expected, but it is extremely difficult for him. Ezra is being very brave and is fighting, but it is hard on him and he tires easily. He can only walk a few feet, so must use a wheelchair to travel anywhere. We (Christine and I) are sad and mad and perplexed all at the same time. We do need your prayers, for Ezra and for the rest of us. Pray that we can see how God wants us to proceed in each situation. Pray that we all, but especially Ezra, will be immersed in the love of Jesus. And please also pray that Ezra will be raised up a strong and healthy boy once again. God bless and keep all of you. Keith & Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080823/d71888e3/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sat Aug 23 12:40:10 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:40:10 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Ezra update In-Reply-To: <082320080219.7036.48AF73CD000A790B00001B7C22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <082320080219.7036.48AF73CD000A790B00001B7C22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: Precious little Ezra. Am praying for this dear little one's healing. From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 10:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Ezra update All, I thought you might like to put a face with the name, and get the latest update... Thank you beyond words for your prayers, Glenn View full size Dear Folks: Here's a picture of Ezra and his bear he built at the "Build-a-Bear Workshop" (it's one of those Mall things...!) He's doing a little better - out of the hospital and out of immediate danger. A combination of superstrong steroids and sodium helped stabilize the pressure on the brain, so that he was no longer hallucinating, vomiting, or in extreme pain. The weakness on his right side has lessened, so the Drs. don't think he had a stroke, but there may be some permanent weakness. He had to go back in today (Wednesday) for a blood transfusion, which takes most of the day, as he has to have "live" blood straight from a donor. They may start a new round of different chemo as early as next week, but he can't until his blood stabilizes. Needless to say we are all emotional wrecks. Micah is holding up as well as can be expected, but it is extremely difficult for him. Ezra is being very brave and is fighting, but it is hard on him and he tires easily. He can only walk a few feet, so must use a wheelchair to travel anywhere. We (Christine and I) are sad and mad and perplexed all at the same time. We do need your prayers, for Ezra and for the rest of us. Pray that we can see how God wants us to proceed in each situation. Pray that we all, but especially Ezra, will be immersed in the love of Jesus. And please also pray that Ezra will be raised up a strong and healthy boy once again. God bless and keep all of you. Keith & Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080823/eec40ce3/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Aug 23 12:42:41 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:42:41 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Ezra update In-Reply-To: References: <082320080219.7036.48AF73CD000A790B00001B7C22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: <7B515544-EE1A-4C4B-8F47-22FFEA651976@earthlink.net> Thanks so much Glenn... James On Aug 23, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: > Precious little Ezra. Am praying for this dear little one's healing. > > From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 10:19 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Ezra update > > All, > > I thought you might like to put a face with the name, and get the > latest update... > > Thank you beyond words for your prayers, > > Glenn > > > View full size > > Dear Folks: > > Here's a picture of Ezra and his bear he built at the "Build-a- > Bear Workshop" (it's one of those Mall things...!) He's doing a > little better - out of the hospital and out of immediate danger. A > combination of superstrong steroids and sodium helped stabilize the > pressure on the brain, so that he was no longer hallucinating, > vomiting, or in extreme pain. The weakness on his right side has > lessened, so the Drs. don't think he had a stroke, but there may be > some permanent weakness. He had to go back in today (Wednesday) for > a blood transfusion, which takes most of the day, as he has to have > "live" blood straight from a donor. They may start a new round of > different chemo as early as next week, but he can't until his blood > stabilizes. > > Needless to say we are all emotional wrecks. Micah is holding up > as well as can be expected, but it is extremely difficult for him. > Ezra is being very brave and is fighting, but it is hard on him and > he tires easily. He can only walk a few feet, so must use a > wheelchair to travel anywhere. We (Christine and I) are sad and mad > and perplexed all at the same time. > > We do need your prayers, for Ezra and for the rest of us. Pray > that we can see how God wants us to proceed in each situation. Pray > that we all, but especially Ezra, will be immersed in the love of > Jesus. And please also pray that Ezra will be raised up a strong and > healthy boy once again. > > God bless and keep all of you. > > Keith & Chris > > > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080823/56782b18/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 23 15:01:38 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 20:01:38 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Link to Ezra's Website Message-ID: <082320082001.24774.48B06CA20009B24A000060C622218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> All, First, I want to thank each and every one of you for your prayers and well wishes. They are so very greatly appreciated! I have included a link to Ezra's web site below. Although the status on the main page is dated, the Orange County Register link has a running list of update stories they have done while following Ezra's treatment. There is also contact and beneficence info for any who may feel so motivated. You love and concern are evident and welcome! Thanks, Glenn www.ezrachatterton.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080823/f1f4240f/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Aug 23 18:10:51 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:10:51 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Ezra update In-Reply-To: <7B515544-EE1A-4C4B-8F47-22FFEA651976@earthlink.net> References: <082320080219.7036.48AF73CD000A790B00001B7C22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> <7B515544-EE1A-4C4B-8F47-22FFEA651976@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8EE378779EA44D0C85CFD88D5D6E4A61@bettylaptop> Yes, Glenn, thank you so much for the update and for the precious face to put with the name. This little guy has a special name and now we know what he looks like. A face always helps to personalize our prayers! These deep hurts are indeed beyond words.and beyond our understanding. I am praying for little Ezra as well as for his family as they stand by.standing by and being able to do nothing is unbelievably hard and leaves a pain that cannot be touched.only HaShem can reach into the heart where it hurts so much...and all we can stand in the gap. Please Glenn keep us updated and thank you, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 12:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FW: Ezra update Thanks so much Glenn... James On Aug 23, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Precious little Ezra. Am praying for this dear little one's healing. From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 10:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Ezra update All, I thought you might like to put a face with the name, and get the latest update... Thank you beyond words for your prayers, Glenn View full size Dear Folks: Here's a picture of Ezra and his bear he built at the "Build-a-Bear Workshop" (it's one of those Mall things...!) He's doing a little better - out of the hospital and out of immediate danger. A combination of superstrong steroids and sodium helped stabilize the pressure on the brain, so that he was no longer hallucinating, vomiting, or in extreme pain. The weakness on his right side has lessened, so the Drs. don't think he had a stroke, but there may be some permanent weakness. He had to go back in today (Wednesday) for a blood transfusion, which takes most of the day, as he has to have "live" blood straight from a donor. They may start a new round of different chemo as early as next week, but he can't until his blood stabilizes. Needless to say we are all emotional wrecks. Micah is holding up as well as can be expected, but it is extremely difficult for him. Ezra is being very brave and is fighting, but it is hard on him and he tires easily. He can only walk a few feet, so must use a wheelchair to travel anywhere. We (Christine and I) are sad and mad and perplexed all at the same time. We do need your prayers, for Ezra and for the rest of us. Pray that we can see how God wants us to proceed in each situation. Pray that we all, but especially Ezra, will be immersed in the love of Jesus. And please also pray that Ezra will be raised up a strong and healthy boy once again. God bless and keep all of you. Keith & Chris _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080823/cb55f7a6/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Aug 23 20:15:50 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 11:15:50 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] FW: Ezra update] Message-ID: <48B0B646.2020607@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/0ea3023c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Ezra update Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 02:19:58 +0000 Size: 9833 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/0ea3023c/attachment.eml From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Aug 23 21:06:34 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 21:06:34 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 In-Reply-To: <200808222034.m7MKYI05012233@mail114c25.carrierzone.com> References: <486226.40192.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200808222034.m7MKYI05012233@mail114c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <1EFEB18275874CC6A3729B7550E50AF9@bettylaptop> Steve, I am all out of contributions at the moment, but this article has given me much to think about. Thanks for sending it. It has much wisdom. Perhaps others have more to add. I just wanted you to know that I appreciated your thoughts as always. Shavuah tov, Elisheva/Betty p.s.. finally got my computer back after a week.good to be reading again. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 3:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 Tracy and All, While Hanoch is busy, I hastily assembled some ideas that have been in my head for some time.about Psalm 77. This psalm although a personal reflection in a troubled period of the author's life, it is prophetic in subtle ways if we look at the implications and subtle suggestions not just for individuals in similar circumstances but also for the "whole" nation of Israel. It reminds us to recall G-ds' deliverance of Israel in times past, and how He will likewise deliver Israel. Verses 5-6, 11, tell us to meditate on "the days of old and ancient times." This is exactly what 'lost" members of Israel are to do be they from any tribe. Verse 7 speaks of times, when the "casting off" period is to be recalled after a long time and His mercy to be reconsidered because it will be available again, when "their sentence" of exile is to be up, (referred to as the "warfare," (Isa. 40:2 KJV). See haftarah Vaetchanan of last week. Verses 12-13, can reminds us of the "Presence" and His ways disclosed to us in the "sanctuary" of prayers, what I call "the Mishkan of Prayers," because the Temple may not be available.... Verses 14-15 refer to "strength and [gathering] arm" both of which can be metaphors for his "redemptive agency... It may be that verse 15 is one of the quintessential keys to understand "understanding" by the Tribes when this "redemption" and gathering is to be considered by them at a time when all His mercy seems to be have been forgotten.... The "sons of Jacob" is the way of understanding who the descendents of Jacob are, primarily by Jews, and of Jews. Jews have so much forgotten about the ten tribes, that they look upon all Israelites as "Jews." This is similar to the way Renaissance painters painted Biblical scenes and personages in terms of Renaissance architecture and clothes of their own times. Though this is not the case all the time, it is the general outlook and view by most Jews, be they educated or not. They look for "Jewish" trappings among those they consider to be "the lost tribes" not realizing that after having forgotten their names for 2700 years, they will not have any "Jewish" trappings of nay sort. The "sons of Joseph" are mentioned separately here, even though they are the sons of Jacob, because it is a key to understanding as to "how to understand" "Israel" in the last days" when G-d's "strong redemptive and gathering arm" is to be considered to be working." This verse calls the prophesied readers' attention to the fact that there will be two groups of "Israel" in the last days, and the sons of Joseph will be "the other" group, headed by the descendents of Joseph, and with him the rest of the prophetic "Ephraim," those of Joseph and his companions, Ez. 37:15. It is helpful here to remember what "Jacob," popularly understood as "the Jews" in the last days will say in an aggregate, prophetic way, when they will run into the multitudes of Joseph's descendants, (as well as his companions) indentified with him as a group.when Joseph will reveal himself to his brethren. "Israel/ Jacob," i.e. "the Jews of the last days" will say the same thing in the last days as "he / Israel" said in 'the ancient times" to be recalled according to Psalm 77: : "And Israel beheld Joseph's sons and said, Who are these?" (Gen 48:8). We have to remember that Jacob was blind in his "last days" by the time died, a condition to be on him in his prophesied "Last Days." "Then shalt thou say in thine heart, "who has begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive and removing to and for? and who hath brought up these? Behold I was left alone, these, where had they been?" Isa. 49:21). See also Isa. 54:1 re "the desolate" wife," and . 15:21, Rachel weeping for her children, not knowing that they were to be increased in numbers, and renewing their strength "in the isles," Isa. 49:20., 42:4, 41:1, 5, 51:5, 42:4, The resolution of this "confusion and blindness" of Israel / Jacob toward identity is resolved in Isa. 63:-17when those those in the last days wondering about G-d's vengeance among the nations, especially the Edomite civilization of the last days, will be contemplating G-d's "saving arm," Isa. 63:5, and will remember the ancient Scriptures of old, the days and writings of Moses, Psalm 77:5, 20, Malachi 3:24. The descendents of Joseph's companions, in times of Jacob's trouble, (Jer. 30:7) will cry out just as in Psalm 77: "Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory. Where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? Are they restrained? (Isa. 63:15). "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not, thou O LORD art our gather, our redeemer, thy name is from everlasting. O LORD, why hast thou made us to err form they ways and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for Thy servants' sake, the tribes of Thine inheritance." Isa. 63:16-17). We know that Psalm 77 refers to times of Redemption, because the name of Joseph is spelled there with a heh in the middle, i.e. Yeh oseph. Adding the heh, is indicative of the heh in the Tetragrammaton, when added to a name, as to that of Joshua, to be altered into Yehoshua, signifies HaShem's Guidance and redemptive factor added to one's identity. There is more to this, (especailly the meaning of the Heh), please add your contribution to this. Thanks, Shabbat Shalom, Steve At 05:43 AM 8/21/2008, you wrote: Dear Hanoch, What does "the sons of Jacob and sons of Joseph" mean? Why does the passage differentiate them in this way? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:37:24 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 The Lekarev Report 20 Av 5768 August 21, 2008 Shalom Hashem, Your way is in holiness; who is a great god like our G-d? You are the G-d who does wonders; You have made known Your strength among the peoples. You have redeemed Your people with Your own arm, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Psalm 77:13-15 _____ Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More! _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080823/eef53abe/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Aug 24 00:33:49 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 22:33:49 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 In-Reply-To: <1EFEB18275874CC6A3729B7550E50AF9@bettylaptop> References: <486226.40192.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200808222034.m7MKYI05012233@mail114c25.carrierzone.com> <1EFEB18275874CC6A3729B7550E50AF9@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <200808240545.m7O5jifO002307@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> Gang, Just a few more comments on this Psalm 77. I hope you have been following the two haftarah readings so far, and noted how the comments below are taken from them. Today's Eikev haftara reading At 07:06 PM 8/23/2008, you wrote: >Steve, I am all out of contributions at the >moment, but this article has given me much to >think about. Thanks for sending it. It has >much wisdom. Perhaps others have more to >add. I just wanted you to know that I >appreciated your thoughts as always. Shavuah tov, Elisheva/Betty >p.s.. finally got my computer back after a week good to be reading again. > > >---------- >From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe >Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 3:34 PM >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 > >Tracy and All, > >While Hanoch is busy, I hastily assembled some >ideas that have been in my head for some time.about Psalm 77. > >This psalm although a personal reflection in a >troubled period of the author's life, it is >prophetic in subtle ways if we look at the >implications and subtle suggestions not just for >individuals in similar circumstances but also >for the "whole" nation of Israel. It reminds us >to recall G-ds' deliverance of Israel in times >past, and how He will likewise deliver Israel. > >Verses 5-6, 11, tell us to meditate on "the >days of old and ancient times." This is exactly >what 'lost" members of Israel are to do be they from any tribe. > >Verse 7 speaks of times, when the "casting off" >period is to be recalled after a long time and >His mercy to be reconsidered because it will be >available again, when "their sentence" of >exile is to be up, (referred to as the >"warfare," (Isa. 40:2 KJV). See haftarah Vaetchanan of last week. > >Verses 12-13, can reminds us of the "Presence" >and His ways disclosed to us in the "sanctuary" >of prayers, what I call "the Mishkan of >Prayers," because the Temple may not be available.... > >Verses 14-15 refer to "strength and [gathering] >arm" both of which can be metaphors for his "redemptive agency... > >It may be that verse 15 is one of the >quintessential keys to understand >"understanding" by the Tribes when this >"redemption" and gathering is to be considered >by them at a time when all His mercy seems to be have been forgotten.... > >The "sons of Jacob" is the way of understanding >who the descendents of Jacob are, primarily by >Jews, and of Jews. Jews have so much forgotten >about the ten tribes, that they look upon all >Israelites as "Jews." This is similar to the >way Renaissance painters painted Biblical scenes >and personages in terms of Renaissance >architecture and clothes of their own >times. Though this is not the case all the >time, it is the general outlook and view by most >Jews, be they educated or not. They look for >"Jewish" trappings among those they consider to >be "the lost tribes" not realizing that after >having forgotten their names for 2700 years, >they will not have any "Jewish" trappings of nay sort. > >The "sons of Joseph" are mentioned separately >here, even though they are the sons of Jacob, >because it is a key to understanding as to "how >to understand" "Israel" in the last days" when >G-d's "strong redemptive and gathering arm" is >to be considered to be working." This verse >calls the prophesied readers' attention to the >fact that there will be two groups of "Israel" >in the last days, and the sons of Joseph will be >"the other" group, headed by the descendents of >Joseph, and with him the rest of the prophetic >"Ephraim," those of Joseph and his companions, Ez. 37:15. > >It is helpful here to remember what "Jacob," >popularly understood as "the Jews" in the last >days will say in an aggregate, prophetic way, >when they will run into the multitudes of >Joseph's descendants, (as well as his >companions) indentified with him as a group.when >Joseph will reveal himself to his >brethren. "Israel/ Jacob," i.e. "the Jews of >the last days" will say the same thing in the >last days as "he / Israel" said in 'the ancient >times" to be recalled according to Psalm 77: : >"And Israel beheld Joseph's sons and said, Who >are these?" (Gen 48:8). We have to remember that >Jacob was blind in his "last days" by the time >died, a condition to be on him in his prophesied "Last Days." > >"Then shalt thou say in thine heart, "who has >begotten me these, seeing I have lost my >children, and am desolate, a captive and >removing to and for? and who hath brought up >these? Behold I was left alone, these, where had >they been?" Isa. 49:21). See also Isa. 54:1 re >"the desolate" wife," and . 15:21, Rachel >weeping for her children, not knowing that they >were to be increased in numbers, and renewing >their strength "in the isles," Isa. 49:20., 42:4, 41:1, 5, 51:5, 42:4, > >The resolution of this "confusion and blindness" >of Israel / Jacob toward identity is resolved >in Isa. 63:-17when those those in the last days >wondering about G-d's vengeance among the >nations, especially the Edomite civilization of >the last days, will be contemplating G-d's >"saving arm," Isa. 63:5, and will remember the >ancient Scriptures of old, the days and writings >of Moses, Psalm 77:5, 20, Malachi 3:24. The >descendents of Joseph's companions, in times of >Jacob's trouble, (Jer. 30:7) will cry out just as in Psalm 77: >"Look down from heaven, and behold from the >habitation of thy holiness and of thy >glory. Where is thy zeal and thy strength, the >sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward >me? Are they restrained? (Isa. 63:15). > >"Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham >be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us >not, thou O LORD art our gather, our redeemer, >thy name is from everlasting. O LORD, why hast >thou made us to err form they ways and hardened >our heart from thy fear? Return for Thy >servants' sake, the tribes of Thine inheritance." Isa. 63:16-17). > >We know that Psalm 77 refers to times of >Redemption, because the name of Joseph is >spelled there with a heh in the middle, i.e. Yeh >oseph. Adding the heh, is indicative of the heh >in the Tetragrammaton, when added to a name, as >to that of Joshua, to be altered into Yehoshua, >signifies HaShem's Guidance and redemptive factor added to one's identity. > >There is more to this, (especailly the >meaning of the Heh), please add your contribution to this. > >Thanks, > >Shabbat Shalom, > >Steve > > > > > > >At 05:43 AM 8/21/2008, you wrote: > >Dear Hanoch, > >What does "the sons of Jacob and sons of Joseph" >mean? Why does the passage differentiate them in this way? > >Tracy > >----- Original Message ---- >From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:37:24 AM >Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 > > >The Lekarev Report >20 Av 5768 >August 21, 2008 >Shalom > >Hashem, Your way is in holiness; who is a great >god like our G-d? You are the G-d who does >wonders; You have made known Your strength among the peoples. >You have redeemed Your people with Your own arm, >the sons of Jacob and Joseph. > >Psalm 77:13-15 > >---------- >Get >the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More! > >_______________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080823/4c4532d8/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Aug 24 02:51:47 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 00:51:47 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 Message-ID: <200808240751.m7O7pjdR031636@mail201c25.carrierzone.com> Gang, (sorry, I accidentally sent out this email before completing it), Just a few more random comments on this Psalm 77. I hope you have been following the two haftarah readings so far, and noted how the comments below are taken from them. Today's Eikev haftara (as well as Vaetchanan's and Reeh's haftarot) also bear on Psalm 77:15: Isa. 49:18 sees Jacob's injunction to the tribes to gather themselves together in the last days. This is of course Elijah's message as well, "Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations..." Isa. 45:20 Isa. 50:1 this refers obviously to the Ten Tribes, the "wife" who has been put away for her sins, but is not really divorced. The rest of the chapter and 51:1, 7, may refer to those who are called from this lot, are told to look into their past, and are acknowledged here as searching for the "ways of righteousness" but really do not know what to do and where to look. They are told here to look to Abraham and Sarah, and their spiritual ancestry in the Divine promises to Abraham and Sarah. Sounds like "us"? Maybe? This seems to be "the remnant" to whom others will be gathered. Hertz calls these "ideal Israel." Now I do not want to promote any elitist idea here, that we are some kind of "elite." We are not in any way. We have only one distinction, not of our own doing, that is that God has called us first to awaken, and often "we are ready to bear all the uncharitableness and persecution at the hands of their brethren who may be blind and deaf to the signs of the times." I think this is true in both camps especially those that are called out from traditional Christianity. Some might ask, well if Joseph is "a father of Israel," where is that nation? The answer seems to be in in Isa. 55:5: "Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto thee, because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified thee." 51: 9 seems to be written to us, so we do not lose heart, and trust G-d that He will help us to find the desire of our hearts and to do the job He expects of us and for what he has called us out for from the Valley of Dry Bones. Gang, this is the "order of the day!" Now that is encouraging.... let us acknowledge our calling in our personal and collective prayers in our fellowships and gatherings.... our job is yet to be done, and we have to be readied to do that.... BTW, I think Psalm 77:15 is extremely important for us to know about, I received it as a PR in 1994. The implications of it is just unfolding now..... Shavuah tov, Steve At 07:06 PM 8/23/2008, you wrote: >Steve, I am all out of contributions at the >moment, but this article has given me much to >think about. Thanks for sending it. It has >much wisdom. Perhaps others have more to >add. I just wanted you to know that I >appreciated your thoughts as always. Shavuah tov, Elisheva/Betty >p.s.. finally got my computer back after a week good to be reading again. > > >---------- >From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe >Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 3:34 PM >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 > >Tracy and All, > >While Hanoch is busy, I hastily assembled some >ideas that have been in my head for some time.about Psalm 77. > >This psalm although a personal reflection in a >troubled period of the author's life, it is >prophetic in subtle ways if we look at the >implications and subtle suggestions not just for >individuals in similar circumstances but also >for the "whole" nation of Israel. It reminds us >to recall G-ds' deliverance of Israel in times >past, and how He will likewise deliver Israel. > >Verses 5-6, 11, tell us to meditate on "the >days of old and ancient times." This is exactly >what 'lost" members of Israel are to do be they from any tribe. > >Verse 7 speaks of times, when the "casting off" >period is to be recalled after a long time and >His mercy to be reconsidered because it will be >available again, when "their sentence" of >exile is to be up, (referred to as the >"warfare," (Isa. 40:2 KJV). See haftarah Vaetchanan of last week. > >Verses 12-13, can reminds us of the "Presence" >and His ways disclosed to us in the "sanctuary" >of prayers, what I call "the Mishkan of >Prayers," because the Temple may not be available.... > >Verses 14-15 refer to "strength and [gathering] >arm" both of which can be metaphors for his "redemptive agency... > >It may be that verse 15 is one of the >quintessential keys to understand >"understanding" by the Tribes when this >"redemption" and gathering is to be considered >by them at a time when all His mercy seems to be have been forgotten.... > >The "sons of Jacob" is the way of understanding >who the descendents of Jacob are, primarily by >Jews, and of Jews. Jews have so much forgotten >about the ten tribes, that they look upon all >Israelites as "Jews." This is similar to the >way Renaissance painters painted Biblical scenes >and personages in terms of Renaissance >architecture and clothes of their own >times. Though this is not the case all the >time, it is the general outlook and view by most >Jews, be they educated or not. They look for >"Jewish" trappings among those they consider to >be "the lost tribes" not realizing that after >having forgotten their names for 2700 years, >they will not have any "Jewish" trappings of any >sort. For the curse of having their names erased >to hold, they could not be holding on to any >"Jewish" trappings and identifying signs of any >sort. The few traces that remained have not >been known or acknowledged widely by them or by Jews. > >The "sons of Joseph" are mentioned separately >here, even though they are the sons of Jacob, >because it is a key to understanding as to "how >to understand" "Israel" in the last days" when >G-d's "strong redemptive and gathering arm" is >to be considered to be actively working." This >verse calls the prophesied readers' attention to >the fact that there will be two groups of >"Israel" in the last days, and the sons of >Joseph will be "the other" group, headed by the >descendents of Joseph, and with him the rest of >the prophetic "Ephraim," those of Joseph and his >companions, Ez. 37:15. In that sense, Joseph is >considered here in a "prophetic identification >manner, to be the one of the "fathers" of [the >tribes of] Israel. The Ten Tribes have >prophetically followed their "patriarch" Joseph >into exile, into "the Egypt of the world" and to >"live separate from their brethren," (Gen. 49:26). > >It is helpful here to remember what "Jacob," >popularly understood as "the Jews" in the last >days will say in an aggregate, prophetic way, >when they will run into the multitudes of >Joseph's descendants, (as well as his >companions) indentified with him as a group.when >Joseph will reveal himself to his >brethren. "Israel/ Jacob," i.e. "the Jews of >the last days" will say the same thing in the >last days as "he / Israel" said in 'the ancient >times" to be recalled according to Psalm 77: : >"And Israel beheld Joseph's sons and said, Who >are these?" (Gen 48:8). We have to remember that >Jacob was blind in his "last days" by the time >he died, a condition to be on him in his >prophesied "Last Days" as the popularly >understood and identified Jacob / "the Jews" of the last days. > >"Then shalt thou say in thine heart, "who has >begotten me these, seeing I have lost my >children, and am desolate, a captive and >removing to and for? and who hath brought up >these? Behold I was left alone, these, where had >they been?" Isa. 49:21). See also Isa. 54:1 re >"the desolate" wife," and . 15:21, Rachel >weeping for her children, not knowing that they >were to be increased in numbers, and renewing >their strength "in the isles," Isa. 49:20., 42:4, 41:1, 5, 51:5, 42:4, > >The resolution of this "confusion and blindness" >of Israel / Jacob toward identity is resolved >in Isa. 63:-17when those those in the last days >wondering about G-d's vengeance among the >nations, especially the Edomite civilization of >the last days, will be contemplating G-d's >"saving arm," Isa. 63:5, and will remember the >ancient Scriptures of old, the days and writings >of Moses, Psalm 77:5, 20, Malachi 3:24. The >descendents of Joseph's companions, in times of >Jacob's trouble, (Jer. 30:7) will cry out just as in Psalm 77: >"Look down from heaven, and behold from the >habitation of thy holiness and of thy >glory. Where is thy zeal and thy strength, the >sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward >me? Are they restrained? (Isa. 63:15). > >"Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham >be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us >not, thou O LORD art our gather, our redeemer, >thy name is from everlasting. O LORD, why hast >thou made us to err form they ways and hardened >our heart from thy fear? Return for Thy >servants' sake, the tribes of Thine inheritance." Isa. 63:16-17). > >We know that Psalm 77 refers to times of >Redemption, because the name of Joseph is >spelled there with a heh in the middle, i.e. >Ye-h-oseph. Adding the heh, is indicative of the >heh in the Tetragrammaton, when added to a name, >as to that of Joshua, to be altered into >Ye-h-oshua, signifies HaShem's Guidance and >redemptive factor added to one's identity. > >There is more to this, (especially the >meaning of the Heh), please add your contribution to this. > >Thanks, > >Shabbat Shalom, > >Steve > > > > > > >At 05:43 AM 8/21/2008, you wrote: > >Dear Hanoch, > >What does "the sons of Jacob and sons of Joseph" >mean? Why does the passage differentiate them in this way? > >Tracy > >----- Original Message ---- >From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:37:24 AM >Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 > > >The Lekarev Report >20 Av 5768 >August 21, 2008 >Shalom > >Hashem, Your way is in holiness; who is a great >god like our G-d? You are the G-d who does >wonders; You have made known Your strength among the peoples. >You have redeemed Your people with Your own arm, >the sons of Jacob and Joseph. > >Psalm 77:13-15 > >---------- >Get >the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More! > >_______________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/8286816a/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Aug 24 02:44:02 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 00:44:02 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Who is the "thou" in Isa. 55:5? Message-ID: <200808240752.m7O7qJKK021333@mail2514.carrierzone.com> Gang, Here is a follow-up question for us to think about? Who is the "thou" Isa. 55:5: "Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto thee, because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified thee." Who is doing the calling and who is running to whom? For that matter, who is the "him" in ISa. 55:4? "Behold I have given him for a witness to the people a leader and commander to the people." Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/42bb2b83/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Aug 23 18:59:07 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:59:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Update on Publication of Restoring Abrahamic Faith Message-ID: <1D90580B-777D-476E-8242-3483FD858700@earthlink.net> I wanted to give you an update on the publication of my new book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, which many of you have pre-ordered, just so no one thinks they have been left out or forgotten. We had expected to be sending the book out by late July or early August but due to a number of factors the publication date now looks to be late September. As I am learning, such delays are somewhat common in the publishing business since there are so many steps in preparing the manuscript for final printing. I am completely new to this self-publishing process and I have insisted that this book be of the highest quality, which has involved more than I anticipated in terms of technical preparation, graphic design, type setting, format, proofreading, and so forth. Everything is now in place, the final "blue line" proofs are approved and the printing is underway. I think all of you will be impressed with the quality of this book, both in terms of appearance and content. We will fill the orders we have via Priority Mail just as soon as the copies arrive. I want to thank you all for your patience and also for your willingness to pre-order, since we are attempting to finance the costs of the first printing by this means. Once you have the book in hand I hope you will feel that the wait was worth it. If you have further questions please contact me. Best, James Tabor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080823/9fa89af7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 24 09:04:37 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:04:37 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Funeral for Baruch' Message-ID: Shavua tov/Buena semana, Hanoch _by Rabbi Binny Freedman_ (http://www.aish.com/search/article_search_results.asp?article_author=Rabbi+Binny+Freedman&title_text=&date_amount=&date_option=y ear) Instead of crying, a reason to sing. This is a story that I read in the Jerusalem Post a number of years ago. Now, understand, I am really a skeptic at heart when it comes to things like this, and I could not believe such a story was true, so I actually went to Mount Herzl and found the Shapiro grave. Seeing the headstone in the cemetery with the inscription matching the information in the newspaper account convinced me that the story is true. And because it is such a beautiful story, I will share it with you now: Chaim Shapiro went through the seven levels of hell. He survived four concentration camps not to mention the ghetto and forced marches. He began the War with eight children and a wonderful family, and in a little over a year, he lost his wife and seven of his children, without ever having the chance to even sit shiva. He was finally liberated from Buchenwald with his only surviving son Baruch and they wallowed in the DP camps for nearly three years until finally, in 1948, they found place aboard an immigrant ship and arrived in Israel a week later. Israel, in the midst of the War of Independence, was fighting a desperate battle for survival against overwhelming odds, so Baruch Shapiro volunteered to fight. With no previous training, he was taken to a ravine, handed a rifle, taught how to shoot a few bullets, and sent off to war. Meanwhile, with the stipend that he received from the Jewish Agency, his father Chaim rented a small apartment outside Tel Aviv. Baruch Shapiro distinguished himself in battle. As part of the Harel Brigade fighting under Yitzhak Rabin to break the Arab siege on Jerusalem, Baruch received a field commission as an officer and was awarded a medal for bravery under fire. And then, one day, as Chaim Shapiro was sitting in his tiny living room in Tel Aviv, he glanced out the window and saw one of those terrible delegations heading upthe path to his apartment. They say that Chaim Shapiro opened the door before they knocked, and they say that he never even read the telegram, just crumpled it over and over in his hands.... When a soldier in Israel is killed, the army takes care of everything, including the funeral arrangements. Chaim Shapiro had only one request: he wanted his son who had died fighting for Jerusalem to at least be buried in Jerusalem, on Mount Herzl, the National Military cemetery. The next afternoon hundreds of mourners gathered at Mount Herzl. Most of them had never known Baruch Shapiro or his father Chaim, but they had heard of the terrible tragedy and wanted to pay their respects. After all, what Hitler had not finished in the crematoria had ended at the hands of an Arab bullet; this was the last Shapiro son; the end of a line. Yigal Yadin himself, the IDF Chief of Staff (who would later discover Massada) stood by Chaim Shapiro's side. And as the coffin was being lowered into the ground, Chaim Shapiro began to sing. People thought he had lost it; Yadin put his arm around Chaim's shoulders and someone ran to get him some water. But he shrugged them all off, and again, began to sing. People had no idea what to make of it, so finally Chaim Shapiro looked at them and said: "You know, I have been through a hell the likes of which most people cannot imagine; I lost over seventy relatives in a little over a year, including seven children, my wife and parents. I have no place to mourn them, no grave; they are ashes in the skies over Europe, and I have no idea why they had to die. "But this son, at least this son, I know why he died. He died so we could have a home for the Jewish people in the land of Israel, and he has a grave, here on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem. And that is not a reason to cry, it is a reason to sing." When Chaim Shapiro finished speaking, he began to sing once more, and grabbing people's hands, to dance. And as the flag-draped coffin of Baruch Shapiro was lowered into the ground, three hundred mourners began to sing and to dance against the setting sun of the Jerusalem sky... The next time you visit Israel, go to Mount Herzl, Israel's National Military Cemetery, her Arlington. And when you walk through the wide stone gates, walk up and then down to the right where the graves from 1948 lie, and you will find the lonely grave of one Baruch Shapiro. Close your eyes there, and you will understand perhaps, why the Jewish people will never be destroyed. Am Yisrael Chai. Excerpted from_ "Small Miracles of the Holocaust: Extraordinary Coincidences of Faith, Hope and Survival"_ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1599214075/friendsofaishhat/) by Yitta Halberstam and Judith Leventhal, Globe Pequot Press. _Click here to order_ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1599214075/friendsofaishhat/) . **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/61ec92eb/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 24 09:24:33 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:24:33 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] THIS is the reality.. Message-ID: **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/dbedc772/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 46439 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/dbedc772/attachment.jpe From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 24 09:28:31 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:28:31 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 Message-ID: Shavua tov/Buena semana, Thanks Steve - great insight, once again! Nothing for me to add, you have explained it fabulously. I should make sure to travel and be inaccessible more often! :-) At least when a question is posed, right? Toda, Hanoch **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/78b3e858/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 09:38:24 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 07:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 Message-ID: <489021.63796.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Yes, Thanks Steve for the great insight. I'm sure, though quite busy, and modest, Hanoch has personal insights that we'll get to here about...eventually, right? Toda, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "YoungBarzel at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 10:28:31 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 Shavua tov/Buena semana, ? ????Thanks Steve - great insight, once again!? Nothing for me to add, you have explained it fabulously.? I should make sure to?travel?and be inaccessible more often!?? :-)? At least when a question is posed, right? ? ????Toda, ????Hanoch ________________________________ It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/c75014d7/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 10:02:10 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 08:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Who is the "thou" in Isa. 55:5? Message-ID: <120641.49233.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Steve, Just to be sure I'm?clear about what you are saying: Are you?saying? #1 or #2 below? #1) Who is the "thou" Isa. 55:5:? "Behold, thou{House of Joseph} shalt call a nation {House of Judah} that thou{House of Joseph} knowest not, and a nation {House of Judah} that knew not thee{House of Joseph} shall run unto thee {House of Joseph},because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified thee {House of Joseph}." OR, THIS: #2) Who is the "thou" Isa. 55:5:? "Behold, thou{House of Judah} shalt call a nation {House of Joseph} that thou{House of Judah} knowest not, and a nation {House of Joseph} that knew not thee{House of Judah} shall run unto thee {House of Judah},because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified thee {House of Judah}." Toda, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Steve Mathe To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:44:02 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Who is the "thou" in Isa. 55:5? Gang, Here is a follow-up question for us to think about? Who is the "thou" Isa. 55:5:? "Behold, Who is doing the calling and who is running to whom? For that matter, who is the thoushalt call a nation that thouknowest not, and a nation that knew nottheeshall run unto thee,because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified thee." "him" in ISa. 55:4?? "Behold I have given Stevehimfor a witness to the people a leader and commander to the people." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/ce037ae3/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 24 10:14:37 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 11:14:37 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] THIRD GRADE GRADUATION: WONDERFUL WORLD OF ISLAM Message-ID: _Click here: YouTube - THIRD GRADE GRADUATION: WONDERFUL WORLD OF ISLAM_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAimY5SOch8) Great education, huh? Hanoch **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/9f3bb10f/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Sun Aug 24 12:15:15 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 12:15:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: <1EFEB18275874CC6A3729B7550E50AF9@bettylaptop> References: <486226.40192.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200808222034.m7MKYI05012233@mail114c25.carrierzone.com> <1EFEB18275874CC6A3729B7550E50AF9@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <48B19723.2070108@gninc.ca> Dear ones, all of you, I want to just inform you that wonderful things are happening in my life, and the life of my family. But i feel prompted to ask for your prayers, as i too am praying for you all. You are a very special group of dear souls, fighting the onslaughts of the enemy raging as it were, in stealth and desire to totally ruin especially those who are seeking the truth so sincerely. My earnest plea for prayer at this time and it seems to me is urgent, concerns my 15 year old grandson Jamie. This dear grandson of ours, has been rebelling against his Christian parents, and the church in general, that is, the Mennonite church, who in their own way want to help him too. His parents who happen to be our youngest son Ruben, and Millie his native Indian wife, who have battled what seems like a losing battle trying to get this oldest (of 3 children) an only son, Jamie to get converted to Christianity. Jamie had a serious kidney problem from before he was born. He has been in and out of the hospital all of his life for treatments. About 2 years ago he finally had a kidney transplant, where his dad was the donor. But Jamie has suffered enough abuse by his own dad who is Bi-Polar, and does not understand his own son's heart as it seems, so as a result Jamie wants nothing that Christianity is offering, really I should say, he is trying hard to know what to do with his life. The last I heard of him, he had applied at the Psychic Ward in the nearest hospital, claiming that he is suicidal, and threatened to sell drugs, as he needs money, (these are mere temptations, but real) and just does not know where to turn or what to do with his life. Jamie is my only grandson who looks up to me and respects me as one he can confide in, I have tried to reach out to him, telling him about our Hebrew roots, being Judaism. But this was hindered, when everything possible was done to keep us apart, because I was not feeding him Christianity. Jamie left home recently, and moved into a home of a middle aged couple, who are sabbath keepers, thinking they must be minded like he was hoping to get help from, he is very interested in Judaism. But very likely he is disappointed with their faith. They were very kind to him, vegetarians, which even seemed to help him fight his health problems. In this new home, he was given an e-mail address of his own, (which he had longed for so long but was previously strictly forbidden) so him and me could now start to have a real, but sadly very short lived connection via e-mails. The Sabbath before the last one, the 16 th of August, they graciously invited me in for the Sabbath with them. That was good and pleasant in itself , ( thanks to the last couple of month of dialoguing with you all, I could understand these peoples sincere desire to serve God, and i am convinced He is leading them at least to a degree) Of course that is when I learned that really they were still stout Christians, or messianic Jewish, their background was German. His name being Cohen, (Jewish?) They had recently moved here from the USA, led by strong conviction that they should move right into the midst of exactly this rural Mennonite village in Manitoba Canada. Within a week Jamie has left them (of course losing his right to the internet again) I have only heard from Jamie's 3 week relationship's, messianic host what happened to Jamie, in a lengthy telephone conversation. I would love to talk with Jamie but all doors seem to be closed again. This couple was really stressing Jamie to become a Christian too, not knowing what his heart was inclined to. We had a very interesting time together, but I knew this was going to be a stiff battle for Jamie, and I did not want to disrupt his stay with these people, because in a way they were a great help to him. with their outreach to his needs. But my guess is that he could not cope with their Christian outreach. So please stand with me in prayer that he will not get thrown into the gutters. My heart is so torn in concerns for Jamie. Shalom Cornelius Reimer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/8065b12f/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Aug 24 12:50:38 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 13:50:38 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Place of Jesus' Crucifixion Message-ID: <8E9F02F6-2452-46E3-82FA-6587E7D78DA3@earthlink.net> See my latest Blog post if this subject interests you. James jesusdynasty.com/blog From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 24 17:08:11 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:08:11 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Message-ID: My heartfelt prayers are with him, and you, Cornie. May HaShem guide and protect him, always. Hanoch **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/e700a4a8/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 24 17:29:50 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:29:50 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Additional thoughts about Parshat Ekev Message-ID: Ekev: Fresh Daily 21 Av 5768, 22 August 08 02:07 by by Rabbi Dr Raymond Apple (IsraelNN.com) The sidra refers, as do many other parts of the Torah, to the Divine commandments "which I command you this day." (Deuteroniomy 8:1) Which day is meant? The historical answer is on the day when Israel stood at Mount Sinai, for that is when the commandments were given, and that's why we celebrate Shavuot on 6 Sivan. However, that answer does not seem to work when we read this week's portion. In this context, "this day" cannot mean 6 Sivan, so how do we handle the problem? We cannot abolish or deny the Shavuot date, so what do we do? Rabbinic commentary makes a wise choice when it says, "Though the commandments were indeed given on a set day, we must discover them anew every day of our lives. When we observe them it must not be out of ancient habit alone, but because we find them fresh and relevant every single day we live." An example is the requirement of justice. It has been around for a very long time, but every day we have to accept it anew, and employ and apply it in our own set of circumstances. At all times, justice calls for us to be fair to other people. There are times when the need of the hour is to be just and fair to oneself. Another example is the requirement of peace. The concept is eternal, but at any given time it needs to suit the circumstances. There are moments for a peace-offering; there are other moments when peace-offerings are sheer appeasement. History laughs at Neville Chamberlain for coming back from Hitler (yimmach sh'mo) boasting that he had achieved "peace in our time." Note that when the Bible speaks of justice and peace, it uses the same verb, to pursue: "Justice, justice shall you pursue" (Deuteronomy 16:20), "Seek peace and pursue it." (Psalms 34:15) The pursuit does not always take the same form. How Can the Sun Still Shine? The haftarah opens with Zion declaring, "The Lord has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me." (Isaiah 49:14) There are times when we all echo these words. Things go wrong and we feel God has abandoned us. We cry - but the world doesn't cry with us. When we cry, how can the sun still shine? How can the world continue on its path? Everything has stopped for us; everything should stop everywhere. I have never forgotten the day of my late mother's funeral. I was a teenager and losing my mother was the most devastating thing that had ever happened to me. We sat in the car on the way to the cemetery and couldn't understand how the whole world hadn't gone dark. The streets were full of people doing their own thing. The shops were open, the buses were running, the birds were flying. No one was crying except us. God was probably still there, but as far as we were concerned He had let us down. It took me a long while to come to terms with that day's dilemma. What actually helped me was an Anzac Day march of war veterans in the streets of Sydney. There I was, a military chaplain, looking proud but weeping inwardly for the lives that were lost, the dreams and hopes that never came true. I felt for every one of those veterans. Their war was over, but I knew they were all suffering. The march culminated in a solemn service of commemoration. And then? Suddenly, the spell was broken. The pubs opened and they all rushed off for a beer. I thought at first, "Such a tragedy, and how can anyone now simply go off for a drink?" Then there was a flash of understanding and I knew the answer to that day's question, and to the question on the day of the funeral. The world cannot stop. Life must continue. When we are ready, we move back to it. The difference is that now we have a cause to which to dedicate ourselves. The cause is memory, with a message: be nicer, better, more loving. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/6a0f524b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Aug 24 19:17:37 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:17:37 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, and mine too, Cornie. Our children and our grandchildren indeed have our hearts and when they are hurting we hurt as well.. Fifteen is such a hard age and such a vulnerable one. I will be praying for Jamie, that HaShem will touch his heart and he will want to turn his life around. Love, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 5:08 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer My heartfelt prayers are with him, and you, Cornie. May HaShem guide and protect him, always. Hanoch _____ It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/8ed4886c/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 24 20:43:48 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:43:48 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 77 13-15 Message-ID: Hey Tracy, Not sure if I have much personal 'light' to shine on these verses (which came via the Lekarev Report), but I can share the following, from a magnificent commentary on Psalms. It's called, The Bible Psalms with the Jerusalem Commentary - published in Israel by Mosad Harav Kook. Regarding the Jacob/Joseph mention, it indicates the following: " You have redeemed the sons of Jacob and Joseph, who are Your people, mentioned in the first half of the verse. It seems probable that the psalm was originally composed to be recited by a congregation of worshippers made up of members of the tribes who were descendents of Joseph, and therefore the psalmist mentions Joseph as representing all the sons of Jacob. According to the Midrash, all the people of Israel are called the sons of Joseph, for it was Joseph that maintained them in Egypt." Sorry Tracy, but I'm still foggy headed from the trips I've just been on (12 of the last 15 days). Guess I'm not quite the 'road warrior' Dave thought I am - LOL :-) Best regards, Hanoch **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/05925d5f/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Aug 24 20:50:43 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:50:43 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] more on Psalm 77 13-15 Message-ID: <200808250150.m7P1odqD005346@mail205c25.carrierzone.com> Friends, Tracy, your question wonderfully "coincides" (!) with the Torah and haftara readings of the seven weeks of consolations where many answers are found to the your query. I hope to hammer these thoughts into an article on Psalm 77:15, which has to do with "the gathering." In the mean time, here are a few more new random thoughts interspersed with the old random thoughts.. ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************* >This psalm although a personal reflection in a troubled period of >the author's life, it is prophetic in subtle ways if we look at the >implications and subtle suggestions not just for individuals in >similar circumstances but also for the "whole" nation of Israel. It >reminds us to recall G-ds' deliverance of Israel in times past, and >how He will likewise deliver Israel. > >Verses 5-6, 11, tell us to meditate on "the days of old and ancient >times." This is exactly what 'lost" members of Israel are to do be >they from any tribe. > >Verse 7 speaks of times, when the "casting off" period is to be >recalled after a long time and His mercy to be reconsidered because >it will be available again, when "their sentence" of exile is to be >up, (referred to as the "warfare, time of service " (Isa. 40:2 >KJV). See haftarah Vaetchanan of last week. Note: The use of the >this word tzava here suggests the time of service, i.e. the time >served by a prisoner of war. In a way, all of the Ten Tribes >in exile are in the term of their sentence that was extended for >2700 years, starting with the Assytryan conquest of Samaria. > >Verses 12-13, can reminds us of the "Presence" and His ways >disclosed to us in the "sanctuary" of prayers, what I call "the >Mishkan of Prayers," because the Temple may not be available.... > >Verses 14-15 refer to "strength and [gathering] arm" both of which >can be metaphors for his "redemptive agency... > >It may be that verse 15 is one of the quintessential keys to >understand "understanding" by the Tribes when this "redemption" and >gathering is to be considered by them at a time when all His mercy >seems to be have been forgotten.... > >The "sons of Jacob" is the way of understanding who the descendents >of Jacob are, primarily by Jews, and of Jews. Jews have so much >forgotten about the ten tribes, that they look upon all Israelites >as "Jews." This is similar to the way Renaissance painters painted >Biblical scenes and personages in terms of Renaissance architecture >and clothes of their own times. Though this is not the case all the >time, it is the general outlook and view by most Jews, be they >educated or not. They look for "Jewish" trappings among those they >consider to be "the lost tribes" not realizing that after having >forgotten their names for 2700 years, they will not have any >"Jewish" trappings of any sort. For the curse of having their names >erased to hold, they could not be holding on to any "Jewish" >trappings and identifying signs of any sort. The few traces that >remained have not been known or acknowledged widely by them or by Jews. > >The "sons of Joseph" are mentioned separately here, even though they >are the sons of Jacob, because it is a key to understanding as to >"how to understand" "Israel" in the last days" when G-d's "strong >redemptive and gathering arm" is to be considered to be actively >working." This verse calls the prophesied readers' attention to the >fact that there will be two groups of "Israel" in the last days, and >the sons of Joseph will be "the other" group, headed by the >descendents of Joseph, and with him the rest of the prophetic >"Ephraim," those of Joseph and his companions, (Ez. 37:15). In that >sense, Joseph is considered here in a "prophetic identification >manner, to be the one of the "fathers" of [the tribes of] >Israel. The Ten Tribes have prophetically followed their >"patriarch" Joseph into exile, into "the Egypt of the world" and to >"live separate from their brethren," (Gen. 49:26). > >It is helpful here to remember what "Jacob," popularly understood as >"the Jews" in the last days will say in an aggregate, prophetic way, >when they will run into the multitudes of Joseph's descendants, (as >well as his companions) indentified with him as a group.when Joseph >will reveal himself to his brethren. "Israel/ Jacob," i.e. "the >Jews of the last days" will say the same thing in the last days as >"he / Israel" said in 'the ancient times" to be recalled according >to Psalm 77: : "And Israel beheld Joseph's sons and said, Who are >these?" (Gen 48:8). We have to remember that Jacob was blind in his >"last days" by the time he died, in "his last days," a condition to >be on him in his prophesied "Last Days" as the popularly understood >and identified Jacob / "the Jews" of "the" last days. > >"Then shalt thou say in thine heart, "who has begotten me these, >seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive and >removing to and for? and who hath brought up these? Behold I was >left alone, these, where had they been?" Isa. 49:21). See also Isa. >54:1 re "the desolate" wife," and . 15:21, Rachel weeping for her >children, not knowing that they were to be increased in numbers, and >renewing their strength "in the isles," Isa. 49:20., 42:4, 41:1, 5, >51:5, 42:4, > >The resolution of this "confusion and blindness" of Israel / Jacob >toward identity is resolved in Isa. 63:17 when those in the last >days wondering about G-d's vengeance among the nations, especially >the Edomite civilization of the last days, will be contemplating >G-d's "saving arm," in Isa. 63:5, and will remember the ancient >Scriptures of old, the days and writings of Moses, Psalm 77:5, 20, >Malachi 3:24. The descendents of Joseph's companions, in times of >Jacob's trouble, (Jer. 30:7) will cry out just as in Psalm 77: >"Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy >holiness and of thy glory. Where is thy zeal and thy strength, the >sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? Are they >restrained? (Isa. 63:15). > >"Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, >and Israel acknowledge us not, thou O LORD art our father, our >redeemer, thy name is from everlasting. O LORD, why hast thou made >us to err from Thy ways and hardened our heart from Thy fear? Return >for Thy servants' sake, the tribes of Thine inheritance." Isa. 63:16-17). > >We know that Psalm 77 refers to times of Redemption, because the >name of Joseph is spelled there not in the usual way but with a heh >in the middle, i.e. Ye- h-oseph. Adding the heh, is indicative of >the heh in the Tetragrammaton, and when added to a name, as to that >of Joshua, to be altered into Ye- h-oshua, signifies HaShem's >Guidance and redemptive factor added to one's identity. Perhaps as >Joshua brought Israel into the Land, likewise will the latter day >moshiach bring all of Israel into the Land. > >There is more to this, (especially the meaning of the heh, but I do >not have time now, ), please add your contribution to this. A few more random comments on this Psalm 77:15. I hope you have been following the two haftarah readings so far, and noted how the comments below are taken from them. Today's Eikev haftara (as well as Vaetchanan's and Reeh's haftarot) also bear on Psalm 77:15: Isa. 49:18 sees Jacob's injunction to the tribes to gather themselves together in the last days. This is of course Elijah's message as well, "Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations..." Isa. 45:20-22. This is essentially what Elijah told the Ten Tribes in the times of rank idolatrous apostasy of the rule of Ahab and Jezebel, I Kings 18:30-40. I surmise that the the very same dynamics of calling the Ten Tribes to "come near", having their "identities restored" to them, confrontation of the reigning spiritual leadership, the "repair of the altar of the L-RD, i.e. spiritual access be made available again, will be active in the "latter days" 'work of Elijah." Overall, the heart of the wayward children of Israel are to be restored to the heart of the fathers of Biblical faith, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, ( Mal. 4:24), when G-d will "speak to the heart" ["comfortably] of the wayward "wife," (Hos. 2:14, Isa. 40:2, see "Aholah" in Ez. 23:4). It is important to note that "the heart" of the fathers is "singular" and that it reachers out to the heart of the children "in the last days" and their heart, singular also, and it reciprocates to the heart of the fathers. This is the "work of Elijah" in the latter days. In reality it is the "masculine work" of the gathering arm of "Eli-Yah" and it is much greater than the work of any man. We get a hint of this in the fact that the name "Elijah" in the Hebrew here, is spelled without a vav, i.e. Eli-Yah, indicating that this is the work of God. Isa. 50:1 this refers obviously to the Ten Tribes, the "wife" who has been put away for her sins, but is not really divorced, because there are no documents attesting to that. Origen's (St. Augustine's advisor) replacement theology adherents, take note! The rest of the chapter and 51:1, 7, may refer to those who are called from this lot, are told to look into their past, and are acknowledged here as searching for the "ways of righteousness" but really do not know what to do and where to look. They are told here to look to Abraham and Sarah, and their spiritual ancestry and legacy in the Divine promises to Abraham and Sarah. Sounds like "us," maybe? This seems to be "the remnant," the nexus to whom others will be gathered. Hertz in his Chumash commentary calls these "ideal Israel." Now I do not want to promote any elitist idea here, that we are some kind of "elite." We are not in any way, and I think it is a relative term. We have only one distinction, and even that is not of our own doing. It is that God has mercifully called us first to awaken in "the end times/ last days" regathering, and that often "we are ready to bear all the uncharitableness and persecution at the hands of their brethren who may be blind and deaf to the signs of the times." I think this is true in both camps especially those that are called out from traditional Christianity. Some might ask, well if Joseph is "a father of Israel," where is that nation? The answer seems to be in Isa. 55:5: "Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto thee, because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified thee." 51: 9 seems to be written to us, so we do not lose heart, and trust G-d that He will help us to find the desire of our hearts and to do the job He expects of us and for what he has called us out for from the Valley of Dry Bones. Gang, this is the "order of the day!" Now that is encouraging.... let us acknowledge our calling in our personal and collective prayers in our fellowships and gatherings.... our job is yet to be done, and we have to be readied to do that.... time is of essence.... BTW, I think Psalm 77:15 is extremely important for us to know about, I received it as a PR in 1994. The implications of it are just unfolding now..... I think they are unfolding now because we need to know about them now. I invite your comments and contributions to this subject during these days of consolation. Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/eb61af6c/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Aug 24 20:53:41 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:53:41 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Who is the "thou" in Isa. 55:5? In-Reply-To: <120641.49233.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <120641.49233.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200808250153.m7P1rbwX003731@mail2527.carrierzone.com> Tracy, I am not saying any of the alternate couplings below, Am looking for opinions from anyone as to who is who and who is saying what. It is like the old Abbot and Costello routine, "Who is on first?" Steve At 08:02 AM 8/24/2008, you wrote: >Steve, > >Just to be sure I'm clear about what you are saying: Are you >saying #1 or #2 below? > > > >#1) Who is the "thou" Isa. 55:5: > >"Behold, thou {House of Joseph} shalt call a > >nation {House of Judah} that thou {House of Joseph} knowest not, > >and a nation {House of Judah} that knew not > >thee {House of Joseph} shall run unto > >thee {House of Joseph}, because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy >One of Israel, > >for He has glorified thee {House of Joseph}." > >OR, THIS: > > > >#2) Who is the "thou" Isa. 55:5: > >"Behold, thou {House of Judah} shalt call > >a nation {House of Joseph} that thou {House of Judah} knowest not, > >and a nation {House of Joseph} that knew not > >thee {House of Judah} shall run unto > >thee {House of Judah}, because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy >One of Israel, > >for He has glorified thee {House of Judah}." > > > >Toda, > >Tracy > > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Steve Mathe >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:44:02 AM >Subject: [Dialogue] Who is the "thou" in Isa. 55:5? > >Gang, > >Here is a follow-up question for us to think about? > >Who is the "thou" Isa. 55:5: "Behold, thou shalt call a nation that >thou knowest not, and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto >thee, because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy One of Israel, >for He has glorified thee." > >Who is doing the calling and who is running to whom? > >For that matter, who is the "him" in ISa. 55:4? "Behold I have >given him for a witness to the people a leader and commander to the people." > >Steve > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/0da8c313/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Mon Aug 25 00:18:31 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 22:18:31 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: <48B19723.2070108@gninc.ca> References: <486226.40192.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200808222034.m7MKYI05012233@mail114c25.carrierzone.com> <1EFEB18275874CC6A3729B7550E50AF9@bettylaptop> <48B19723.2070108@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <200808250518.m7P5IQxE011313@mail201c25.carrierzone.com> Cornie, Am praying for him, and I think it will work out. For now he needs to go with the flow, and be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, resist less, and keep quiet. HaShem will spring him out of this prison. He needs to lay low, and establish communication with HaShem where he is at. Steve At 10:15 AM 8/24/2008, you wrote: >Dear ones, all of you, I want to just inform you that wonderful >things are happening in my life, and the life of my family. But i >feel prompted to ask for your prayers, as i too am praying for you >all. You are a very special group of dear souls, fighting the >onslaughts of the enemy raging as it were, in stealth and desire to >totally ruin especially those who are seeking the truth so sincerely. > >My earnest plea for prayer at this time and it seems to me is >urgent, concerns my 15 year old grandson Jamie. This dear grandson >of ours, has been rebelling against his Christian parents, and the >church in general, that is, the Mennonite church, who in their own >way want to help him too. His parents who happen to be our youngest >son Ruben, and Millie his native Indian wife, who have battled what >seems like a losing battle trying to get this oldest (of 3 children) >an only son, Jamie to get converted to Christianity. > >Jamie had a serious kidney problem from before he was born. He has >been in and out of the hospital all of his life for treatments. >About 2 years ago he finally had a kidney transplant, where his dad >was the donor. > >But Jamie has suffered enough abuse by his own dad who is Bi-Polar, >and does not understand his own son's heart as it seems, so as a >result Jamie wants nothing that Christianity is offering, really I >should say, he is trying hard to know what to do with his life. The >last I heard of him, he had applied at the Psychic Ward in the >nearest hospital, claiming that he is suicidal, and threatened to >sell drugs, as he needs money, (these are mere temptations, but >real) and just does not know where to turn or what to do with his life. > >Jamie is my only grandson who looks up to me and respects me as one >he can confide in, I have tried to reach out to him, telling him >about our Hebrew roots, being Judaism. But this was hindered, when >everything possible was done to keep us apart, because I was not >feeding him Christianity. Jamie left home recently, and moved into a >home of a middle aged couple, who are sabbath keepers, thinking they >must be minded like he was hoping to get help from, he is very >interested in Judaism. But very likely he is disappointed with their >faith. They were very kind to him, vegetarians, which even seemed to >help him fight his health problems. > >In this new home, he was given an e-mail address of his own, (which >he had longed for so long but was previously strictly forbidden) so >him and me could now start to have a real, but sadly very short >lived connection via e-mails. The Sabbath before the last one, the >16 th of August, they graciously invited me in for the Sabbath with >them. That was good and pleasant in itself , ( thanks to the last >couple of month of dialoguing with you all, I could understand these >peoples sincere desire to serve God, and i am convinced He is >leading them at least to a degree) Of course that is when I learned >that really they were still stout Christians, or messianic Jewish, >their background was German. His name being Cohen, (Jewish?) They >had recently moved here from the USA, led by strong conviction that >they should move right into the midst of exactly this rural >Mennonite village in Manitoba Canada. > >Within a week Jamie has left them (of course losing his right to the >internet again) I have only heard from Jamie's 3 week >relationship's, messianic host what happened to Jamie, in a lengthy >telephone conversation. I would love to talk with Jamie but all >doors seem to be closed again. >This couple was really stressing Jamie to become a Christian too, >not knowing what his heart was inclined to. We had a very >interesting time together, but I knew this was going to be a stiff >battle for Jamie, and I did not want to disrupt his stay with these >people, because in a way they were a great help to him. with their >outreach to his needs. But my guess is that he could not cope with >their Christian outreach. > >So please stand with me in prayer that he will not get thrown into >the gutters. My heart is so torn in concerns for Jamie. > >Shalom > >Cornelius Reimer >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/1324609d/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Mon Aug 25 00:22:25 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 22:22:25 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Who is the "thou" in Isa. 55:5? Message-ID: <200808250522.m7P5MKDk030493@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> Clyde, John, Gary, etc, Everyone, What are your ideas on this "who is who?" Steve Tracy, I am not saying any of the alternate couplings below, Am looking for opinions from anyone as to who is who and who is saying what. It is like the old Abbot and Costello routine, "Who is on first?" Steve At 08:02 AM 8/24/2008, you wrote: >Steve, > >Just to be sure I'm clear about what you are saying: Are you >saying #1 or #2 below? > > > >#1) Who is the "thou" Isa. 55:5: > >"Behold, thou {House of Joseph} shalt call a > >nation {House of Judah} that thou {House of Joseph} knowest not, > >and a nation {House of Judah} that knew not > >thee {House of Joseph} shall run unto > >thee {House of Joseph}, because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy >One of Israel, > >for He has glorified thee {House of Joseph}." > >OR, THIS: > > > >#2) Who is the "thou" Isa. 55:5: > >"Behold, thou {House of Judah} shalt call > >a nation {House of Joseph} that thou {House of Judah} knowest not, > >and a nation {House of Joseph} that knew not > >thee {House of Judah} shall run unto > >thee {House of Judah}, because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy >One of Israel, > >for He has glorified thee {House of Judah}." > > > >Toda, > >Tracy > > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Steve Mathe >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:44:02 AM >Subject: [Dialogue] Who is the "thou" in Isa. 55:5? > >Gang, > >Here is a follow-up question for us to think about? > >Who is the "thou" Isa. 55:5: "Behold, thou shalt call a nation that >thou knowest not, and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto >thee, because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy One of Israel, >for He has glorified thee." > >Who is doing the calling and who is running to whom? > >For that matter, who is the "him" in ISa. 55:4? "Behold I have >given him for a witness to the people a leader and commander to the people." > >Steve > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080824/7c24ff40/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 25 04:03:56 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 02:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: <48B19723.2070108@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <958929.99190.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Cornie: Jamie has been in my prayers since I read your request. I am sure you have committed Jamie to Hashem's care which is the best place for him. I am praying that he will cry out to the only G-d of the universe with his whole heart and Hashem will be sure to reveal himself. I pray that you will have peace in your heart and mind as you pray for Jamie' search to know Hashem. It is very hard to let go when you we are so bound up in our children's lives. Trust Hashem to bring him home. Kind regards, Helen Cornie Reimer wrote: Dear ones, all of you, I want to just inform you that wonderful things are happening in my life, and the life of my family. But i feel prompted to ask for your prayers, as i too am praying for you all. You are a very special group of dear souls, fighting the onslaughts of the enemy raging as it were, in stealth and desire to totally ruin especially those who are seeking the truth so sincerely. My earnest plea for prayer at this time and it seems to me is urgent, concerns my 15 year old grandson Jamie. This dear grandson of ours, has been rebelling against his Christian parents, and the church in general, that is, the Mennonite church, who in their own way want to help him too. His parents who happen to be our youngest son Ruben, and Millie his native Indian wife, who have battled what seems like a losing battle trying to get this oldest (of 3 children) an only son, Jamie to get converted to Christianity. Jamie had a serious kidney problem from before he was born. He has been in and out of the hospital all of his life for treatments. About 2 years ago he finally had a kidney transplant, where his dad was the donor. But Jamie has suffered enough abuse by his own dad who is Bi-Polar, and does not understand his own son's heart as it seems, so as a result Jamie wants nothing that Christianity is offering, really I should say, he is trying hard to know what to do with his life. The last I heard of him, he had applied at the Psychic Ward in the nearest hospital, claiming that he is suicidal, and threatened to sell drugs, as he needs money, (these are mere temptations, but real) and just does not know where to turn or what to do with his life. Jamie is my only grandson who looks up to me and respects me as one he can confide in, I have tried to reach out to him, telling him about our Hebrew roots, being Judaism. But this was hindered, when everything possible was done to keep us apart, because I was not feeding him Christianity. Jamie left home recently, and moved into a home of a middle aged couple, who are sabbath keepers, thinking they must be minded like he was hoping to get help from, he is very interested in Judaism. But very likely he is disappointed with their faith. They were very kind to him, vegetarians, which even seemed to help him fight his health problems. In this new home, he was given an e-mail address of his own, (which he had longed for so long but was previously strictly forbidden) so him and me could now start to have a real, but sadly very short lived connection via e-mails. The Sabbath before the last one, the 16 th of August, they graciously invited me in for the Sabbath with them. That was good and pleasant in itself , ( thanks to the last couple of month of dialoguing with you all, I could understand these peoples sincere desire to serve God, and i am convinced He is leading them at least to a degree) Of course that is when I learned that really they were still stout Christians, or messianic Jewish, their background was German. His name being Cohen, (Jewish?) They had recently moved here from the USA, led by strong conviction that they should move right into the midst of exactly this rural Mennonite village in Manitoba Canada. Within a week Jamie has left them (of course losing his right to the internet again) I have only heard from Jamie's 3 week relationship's, messianic host what happened to Jamie, in a lengthy telephone conversation. I would love to talk with Jamie but all doors seem to be closed again. This couple was really stressing Jamie to become a Christian too, not knowing what his heart was inclined to. We had a very interesting time together, but I knew this was going to be a stiff battle for Jamie, and I did not want to disrupt his stay with these people, because in a way they were a great help to him. with their outreach to his needs. But my guess is that he could not cope with their Christian outreach. So please stand with me in prayer that he will not get thrown into the gutters. My heart is so torn in concerns for Jamie. Shalom Cornelius Reimer _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080825/a56dad17/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Aug 25 09:29:16 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:29:16 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] VERY appropriate.... Message-ID: <8CAD4D616440CF4-17F4-182E@Webmail-mg10.sim.aol.com> The Lekarev Report 24 Av 5768 August 25, 2008 Shalom Show me Your ways, O Hashem; teach me Your paths. Guide me in Your truth, and teach me; for You are the G-d of my salvation; for You do I wait all day long. Psalm 25:4-5 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080825/21342485/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Aug 25 09:34:51 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:34:51 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Once Jewish blood is considered cheap... Message-ID: <8CAD4D6DE6F5B16-17F4-18A6@Webmail-mg10.sim.aol.com> Releasing Terrorists: New Victims Pay the Price Nadav Shragai August 24, 2008 ?? * The Israeli Cabinet approved on August 17 the release of almost 200 Palestinian security prisoners as a ?goodwill gesture? to Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas. The list includes several prisoners ?with blood on their hands,? who, by definition, were involved in the murder of Israelis. ?? * According to an informal estimate by Israeli security bodies, about 50 percent of the terrorists freed for any reason whatsoever returned to the path of terror, either as perpetrator, planner, or accomplice. In the terror acts committed by these freed terrorists, hundreds of Israelis were murdered, and thousands were wounded. ?? * Israel freed 400 Palestinian prisoners and five other prisoners in return for Elhanan Tannenbaum, who was held captive by Hizbullah, and for the bodies of three soldiers kidnapped on Mount Dov. According to Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee Chairman Tzahi Hanegbi, from the date of the deal on January 29, 2004, until April 17, 2007, those freed in the deal had murdered 35 Israelis. ?? * An investigation by the Almagor Terror Victims Association in Israel revealed that at least 30 of the terrorist attacks perpetrated since 2000 were committed by terrorists freed in deals with terror organizations. Many were freed in the framework of goodwill gestures because they were defined by Israel as ?without blood on their hands.? The bloody swath cut by these terrorists claimed the life of 177 persons, with many others wounded and made invalids. Another ?Goodwill Gesture? In anticipation of the return to the Middle East of U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, the Israeli Cabinet approved on August 17 the release of almost 200 Palestinian security prisoners as a ?goodwill gesture? to Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas. The list includes several prisoners ?with blood on their hands,? who, by definition, were involved in the murder of Israelis. Since 1985 the State of Israel has freed over 10,000 Palestinians who were serving prison sentences for hostile activity or terror actions, and this resulted in the murder and death of hundreds of Israeli citizens. Some of the Palestinian terrorists were freed in the framework of deals with terror organizations that involved the exchange of a few isolated Israelis who were taken captive by the terrorists, for hundreds and thousands of terrorists. Another portion were freed in the framework of what were termed diplomatic ?goodwill gestures.? Sometimes the terrorists were freed because their prison terms had been concluded or shortened.1 According to an informal estimate by Israeli security bodies, about 50 percent of the terrorists freed for any reason whatsoever returned to the path of terror, either as a perpetrator,? planner or accomplice. In the terror acts committed by these freed terrorists, hundreds of Israelis were murdered, and thousands were wounded.2 In the c ase of the Jibril deal in 1985, the Israel Defense Ministry determined that 114 out of the 238 who were released returned to terrorism. During 1993-1999, 6,912 terrorists were freed in the wake of various diplomatic agreements, and 854 of them (12.4 percent) returned to terrorist activity, carried out terrorist attacks, murdered or planned to harm Israeli citizens, and were reincarcerated.3 Israel freed 400 Palestinian prisoners and five other prisoners in return for Elhanan Tannenbaum, who was held captive by Hizbullah, and for the bodies of three soldiers kidnapped on Mount Dov. The deal was transacted in Cologne, Germany, on January 29, 2004. According to the information provided by Knesset member Tzahi Hanegbi, the chairman of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, from that date and until April 17, 2007, those freed in the Tannenbaum deal had murdered 35 Israelis.4 A comprehensive investigation recently conducted by the Almagor Terror Victims Association in Israel revealed that at least 30 of the terrorist attacks perpetrated since 2000 were committed by terrorists freed in deals with terror organizations. Many were freed in the framework of deals, understandings, or goodwill gestures because they were defined by Israel as ?without blood on their hands.? The bloody swath cut by these terrorists claimed the life of 177 persons, with many others wounded and made invalids. These statistics have been informally confirmed by security officials.5 Victims and Murderers Dr. David Applebaum, head of the Dep artment of Emergency Medicine at Shaarei Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem, and his 20-year-old daughter Nava, were murdered by a suicide bomber on September 9, 2003, when they went to Caf Hillel on Emek Refaim Street in central Jerusalem. Nava was to be married the next day. The murderer, Ramez Sali Abu Salim, from Rantis, northwest of Ramallah, had been freed from an Israeli prison in 2002. He was rearrested a few months later, but was freed again on February 20, 2003. Seven months later he was sent by the Hamas command in Ramallah to commit a terror attack in the heart of Jerusalem. Also killed in this terror attack were Alon Mizrachi, 20; Gila Moshe, 40; Yehiel Emil Toubol, 50; David Shimon Avizdris, 51; and Shafik Yihya Karem, 22, from Beit Hanina. An additional 60 people were wounded. The famous Marwan Barghouti, who is serving five life sentences in Israeli prison for five acts of murder, was arrested for the first time in 1976 for hostile activity. After being freed, he became one of the leaders of the first intifada in 1987. Arrested again by Israel, he was expelled to Jordan. Permitted to return in the framework of the Oslo agreements (1994), he became the general secretary of the Fatah organization on the West Bank. With the start of the second intifada, Barghouti became the leader of the Tanzim, which was responsible for many terror attacks against Israelis. Some were carried out under the name of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. In April 2002 he was arrested, placed on trial, and i n May 2004 he was convicted of five acts of murder. The prosecution waived 21 additional murder charges and 33 other charges.6 Sheikh Ahmed Yasin was first arrested in 1983, after guns were seized in his home. He was sentenced to 13 years in prison for holding weapons, establishing a military organization and calling for the liquidation of the State of Israel, but was freed by Israel 1985 in the framework of the Jibril deal.7 In 1987 Yasin established and headed the terror organization Hamas. In 1989 he ordered the killing of Palestinians suspected of collaboration with the IDF and the Israel Security Agency, and he subsequently commanded the kidnapping and murder of two Israeli soldiers. For these crimes, Yasin was given a life sentence. He was freed in 1997 as part of an agreement between Israel and Jordan after the botched assassination attempt by the Mossad on Khaled Mashaal in Jordan. After his release, Yasin resumed preaching violence and terror, and the IDF and the Israel Security Agency reported to the government that Yasin was involved in planning terrorist attacks on the operative level. On March 22, 2004, he was killed by missiles fired by Israel Air Force combat helicopters.8 Freed Murderers Kill Again Abdullah Abd Al-Kadr Kawasme was originally arrested in 1988, following the murder of policeman Nissim Toledano, and was exiled together with 400 Hamas and Jihad activists. Upon his return to Israel, he was imprisoned and charged with membership in Hamas and involvement in hostile terrorist activity, and was released in 1994. He was responsible for many terrorist attacks including the infiltration into the community of Adura on April 27, 2002, where four people were killed, including five-year-old Danielle Shefi. Kawasme was also responsible for the infiltration of the community of Carmei Tzur on August 6, 2002, in which three people were murdered; two suicide bombings carried out in tandem in Jerusalem on May 18, 2003, in which six people were killed and 20 wounded; and a suicide bombing in Jerusalem in June 2003 in which 17 people were killed and 105 were wounded. Kawasme was killed by the IDF on June 21, 2003. Karim Ratteb Younis Awis was serving a life sentence for causing the death of a collaborator, but was released in a goodwill gesture to the Palestinians. On November 27, 2001, he dispatched two terrorists who opened fire on civilians at the central bus station in Afula, murdering Michal Mor and Noam Guzofsky and wounding an additional 84 people.9 Nasser Abu Hameid, who had been given five life sentences for the murder of five collaborators, was released in September 1999 in the framework of the Sharm el Sheikh Agreement. After the outbreak of the second intifada, he was documented mutilating the corpses of IDF reserve soldiers Vadim Norzitz and Yossi Avrahami. In December 2000 he murdered Binyamin and Talia Kahane near Givat Zeev. In February 2002 he was involved in plotting the terrorist attack in which policewoman Galit Arbiv was murdered in Neve Yaakov, and he commanded the murder of G adi Rejwan in the Atarot industrial zone in northern Jerusalem. In March 2002 he was responsible for a terror bombing at the Seafood Restaurant where Eliyahu Dahan, Yossi Havi, and policeman Salim Barakat were murdered. In December 2002 he was sentenced to seven life terms for the murder of seven Israelis and was convicted of 12 counts of attempted murder and additional crimes. Abbas ibn Muhammad Mustafa Alsayd was released in 1996 after three years in prison for directing disturbances in Tulkarm. He was responsible for many terror attacks and in September 2005 he was convicted of murdering 35 people and wounding hundreds in the terror attack at the Park Hotel in Netanya on the eve of Passover, March 27, 2002, and at the HaSharon Mall in Netanya on May 18, 2001.10 Matsab Hashalmon was released from jail as part of the ?Tennenbaum deal? on January 29, 2004. Three months later he recruited suicide terrorists Ahmed Kawasme and Nissim Jaabari, who blew themselves up on August 31, 2004, on two buses in Beersheba, killing 16 civilians and wounding scores of others. Iyad Sawalha headed the military wing of Islamic Jihad in Samaria. He was imprisoned for two years for his involvement in the murder of collaborators and was freed in 1998 in the wake of the Oslo Accords. On June 5, 2002, he was responsible for blowing up a bus at Megiddo junction where 17 people were murdered and another 42 were wounded. On October 21, 2002, he was responsible for detonating an explosive-laden jeep near a bus=2 0at Karkur, leaving 14 people murdered and scores wounded. The list of freed terrorists and their victims goes on and on. Israel?s Dilemma The Victims of Arab Terror International has appealed many times to the High Court of Justice against the freeing of terrorists, but all the petitions have been rejected. In one of the petitions (High Court of Justice case 914/04), Supreme Court Justice Edmund Levi expressed the dilemma that he finds himself in as a justice and as an Israeli citizen when confronted with the freeing of terrorists, and their reversion to the path of terror. This is not the very first time that by virtue of agreements it signed, the State of Israel frees terrorists who sowed death and destruction in our midst. After every such prisoner release, the hope reverberated in many hearts that this time a change would ensue and those freed would no longer return to the path of terror and could possibly even serve as ambassadors for disseminating the idea of peaceful coexistence. It would seem that there is no need to elaborate to what extent this hope was in vain, and it might be more fittingly defined as a false illusion. If we needed further proof that those freed were not intent on peace, one can find it in the bloody events that have accompanied us since October 2000. Many of those whom Israel had in the past set free participated in these horrific events. These incidents have taken their toll in human life, sometimes as an everyday occurrence, and altered the lives20of the wounded victims' families from top to bottom. I saw myself forced to concur with the decision of my colleagues, and with trembling hand I added my signature, and with the sole hope that beats inside me, namely that those who adopted the decision and have a complete picture before them and whose shoulders bear the responsibility to ensure the safety and security of Israeli citizens were persuaded that the decision that they adopted was the correct one, despite the terrible risk involved for all of us in the freeing of the miscreants.11 Conclusions Hundreds have been murdered and many more wounded in terrorist attacks perpetrated by terrorists who have been freed from Israeli prisons. There needs to be a change in the ?rules? that have crystallized in recent years where thousands of terrorists are released in return for isolated kidnap victims. This will limit the damage, for fewer freed terrorists will be free to return to the path of terror. One should not pay any price in order to bring about the release of kidnap victims or captives. Furthermore, the terrorists that Israel frees in return for captives should not be freed into the West Bank, but abroad, as was done in certain cases in the past. This will make it harder for them to injure residents of the State of Israel. *???? *???? * Notes 1. From a discussion with a military source. 2. From a discussion with a military source. 3. According to a senior figure in Central=2 0Command. 4. Confirmed by Knesset member Tzahi Hanegbi to the writer. 5. For further details, see the full investigation on the Almagor Terror Victims Association website www.al-magor.com/39719/ 6. The security report, the reports of the Almagor organization, and the verdict and sentence handed down against Barghouti. 7. The Jibril deal involved an exchange of captives that took place on May 21, 1985, between the Government of Israel headed by Shimon Peres and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine General Command, a terrorist organization headed by Ahmed Jibril. In the framework of the exchange, 1,150 prisoners and security detainees who were imprisoned in Israel were freed in exchange for the return of three Israeli captives: Hezi Shai, Yosef Grof and Nissim Salem, who had been taken captive by Jibril's organization at the time of the First Lebanon War. The deal was supported by all the ministers in the Israeli government, both from the Labor Party and the Likud, with the sole exception of Yizhak Navon. Hundreds of Palestinian prisoners were freed in the territories and most of them, as almost all the security bodies concur today, constituted the backbone of the leadership for the first intifada that erupted three years later. 8. From newspaper reports and a security report summing up the incident. 9. From the sentence of the military court in Beit El, file 3478/02: ?The crimes for which the accused is paying the penalty today, demonstrate that the gesture extended to them was not justified and that i t led to the killing of additional innocent citizens. The danger posed by the accused was clear after he had already been convicted of murder in the past. The need to keep them at a distance from human civilization forever was also self-evident. After his release, the accused demonstrated that the gesture was unjustified and the steep price for this was paid by many Israeli families.? 10. The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center report on the terrorist attack at the Park Hotel in Netanya from March 2004, as well as a report by the Almagor organization. 11. High Court of Justice 914/04, Victims of Arab Terror International against Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2004 (1) pp. 781-783. *???? *???? * Nadav Shragai is the author of At the Crossroads, the Story of the Tomb of Rachel (Jerusalem Studies, 2005); The Mount of Contention, the Struggle for the Temple Mount, Jews and Muslims, Religion and Politics since 1967 (Keter, 1995); and "Jerusalem is Not the Problem, It is the Solution," in Mister Prime Minister: Jerusalem, ed. Moshe Amirav (Carmel and the Florsheimer Institute, 2005). He has been writing for the Israeli daily newspaper Ha'aretz since 1983. His previous studies for the Jerusalem Center include Jerusalem: The Dangers of Division ? How to Meet the Demographic Challenge without Subtracting Arab Neighborhoods (Hebrew, 2008; English, forthcoming); ?The Latest Damage to Antiquities on the Temple Mount? (February 2008); and ?The Palestinian Authority=2 0and the Jewish Holy Sites in the West Bank: Rachel's Tomb as a Test Case? (December 2007). ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow? (Women in Green) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080825/3f444cfc/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Aug 25 10:35:47 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:35:47 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] more on Psalm 77 13-15 In-Reply-To: <200808250150.m7P1odqD005346@mail205c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200808250150.m7P1odqD005346@mail205c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <8CAD4DF61308C52-17F4-1DB7@Webmail-mg10.sim.aol.com> Hey Steve, ????? This is such great stuff, I love to read it!? Maybe we can get you to put all of this in a book - you can write it in your spare time!? :-) ????? Best regards, ???????????????? Hanoch? (back in the Apple) -----Original Message----- From: Steve Mathe To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 9:50 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] more on Psalm 77 13-15 Friends, Tracy, your question? wonderfully "coincides" (!) with the Torah and haftara readings of the seven weeks of consolations where many answers are found to the your query. I hope to hammer these thoughts into an article on Psalm 77:15, which has to do with "the gathering."? In the mean time, here are a few more new random thoughts interspersed with the old random thoughts.. ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************* This psalm? although a personal reflection in a troubled period of the author's life, it is prophetic in subtle ways if we look at the implications and subtle suggestions not just for individuals in similar circumstances but also for the "whole" nation of Israel. It reminds us to recall G-ds' deliverance of Israel in times past, and how He will likewise deliver Israel.? Verses 5-6, 11,? tell us to meditate on "the days of old and ancient times."? This is exactly what 'lost" members of Israel are to do be they from any tribe. Verse 7 speaks of times, when the "casting off" period is to be recalled after a long time and His mercy to be reconsidered because it will be available again, when "their sentence" of exile? is to be up, (referred to as the "warfare, time of service " (Isa. 40:2 KJV).? See haftarah Vaetchanan of last week. Note:? The use of the this word tzava here suggests the time of service, i.e. the time served by a prisoner of war.? In a way, all of the Ten Tribes in? exile are in the term of their sentence that was extended for 2700 years, starting with the Assytryan conquest of Samaria. Verses 12-13, can reminds us of the "Presence" and His ways disclosed to us in the "sanctuary" of prayers, what I call "the Mishkan of Prayers," because the Temple may not be available.... Verses 14-15 refer to "strength and [gathering] arm" both of which can be metaphors for his "redemptive agency... It may be that verse 15 is one of the quintessential keys to understand "understanding" by the Tribes when this "redemption" and gathering is to be considered by them at a time when all His mercy seems to be have been forgotten.... The "sons of Jacob" is the way of understanding who the descendents of Jacob are, primarily by Jews, and of Jews.? Jews have so much forgotten about the ten tribes, that they look upon all Israelites as "Jews."? This is similar to the way Renaissance painters painted Biblical scenes and personages in terms of Renaissance architecture and clothes of their own times.? Though this is not the case all the time, it is the general outlook and view by most Jews, be they educated or not.? They look for "Jewish" trappings among those they consider to be "the lost tribes" not realizing that after having forgotten their names for 2700 years, they will not have any "Jewish" trappings of any sort. For the curse of having their names erased to hold, they could not be holding on to any "Jewish" trappings and identifying signs of any sort.? The few traces that remained have not been known or acknowledged widely by them or by Jews. The "sons of Joseph" are mentioned separately here, even though they are the sons of Jacob, because it is a key to understanding as to "how to understand" "Israel" in the last days" when G-d's "strong redemptive and gathering arm" is to be considered to be actively working."? This verse calls the prophesied readers' attention to the fact that there will be two groups of "Israel" in the last days, and the sons of Joseph will be "the other" group, headed by the descendents of Joseph, and with him the rest of the prophetic "Ephraim," those of Joseph and his companions, (Ez. 37:15). In that sense, Joseph is considered here in a "prophetic identification manner, to be the one of the "fathers" of [the tribes of] Israel.? The Ten Tribes have prophetically followed their "patriarch" Joseph into exile, into "the Egypt of the world" and to "live separate from their brethren," (Gen. 49:26). It is helpful here to remember what "Jacob," popularly understood as "the Jews" in the last days will say in an aggregate, prophetic way, when they will run into the multitudes of Joseph's descendants, (as well as his companions) indentified with him as a group.when Joseph will reveal himself to his brethren.? "Israel/ Jacob," i.e. "the Jews of the last days"? will say the same thing in the last days as "he / Israel" said in 'the ancient times" to be recalled according to Psalm 77:?? : "And Israel beheld Joseph's sons and said, Who are these?" (Gen 48:8). We have to remember that Jacob was blind in his "last days"? by the time he died, in "his last days," a condition to be on him in his prophesied "Last Days" as the popularly understood and identified Jacob / "the Jews" of "the" last days. "Then shalt thou say in thine heart, "who has begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive and removing to and for? and who hath brought up these? Behold I was left alone, these, where had they been?" Isa. 49:21).? See also Isa. 54:1 re "the desolate" wife," and . 15:21, Rachel weeping for her children, not knowing that they were to be increased in numbers, and renewing their strength "in the isles," Isa. 49:20., 42:4, 41:1, 5, 51:5, 42:4, We have to remember that Jacob was blind in his "last days"? by the time he died, in "his last days," a condition to be on him in his prophesied "Last Days" as the popularly understood and identified Jacob / "the Jews" of "the" last days. "Then shalt thou say in thine heart, "who has begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive and removing to and for? and who hath brought up these? Behold I was left alone, these, where had they been?" Isa. 49:21).? See also Isa. 54:1 re "the desolate" wife," and . 15:21, Rachel weeping for her children, not knowing that they were to be increased in numbers, and renewing their strength "in the isles," Isa. 49:20., 42:4, 41:1, 5, 51:5, 42:4, The resolution of this "confusion and blindness" of Israel / Jacob toward identity? is resolved in Isa. 63:17 when those? in the last days wondering about G-d's vengeance among the nations, especially the Edomite civilization of the last days, will be contemplating G-d's "saving arm,"? in Isa. 63:5, and will remember the ancient Scriptures of old, the days and writings of Moses, Psalm 77:5, 20, Malachi 3:24.? The descendents of Joseph's companions, in times of Jacob's trouble, (Jer. 30:7) will cry out just as in Psalm 77:? "Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory.? Where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? Are they restrained?? (Isa. 63:15). "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not, thou O LORD art our father, our redeemer, thy name is from everlasting.? O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from Thy ways and hardened our heart from Thy fear? Return for Thy servants' sake, the tribes of Thine inheritance."? Isa. 63:16-17). We know that Psalm 77 refers to times of Redemption, because the name of Joseph is spelled there not in the usual way but with a heh in the middle, i.e. Ye-Israel acknowledge us not, thou O LORD art our father, our redeemer, thy name is from everlasting.? O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from Thy ways and hardened our heart from Thy fear? Return for Thy servants' sake, the tribes of Thine inheritance."? Isa. 63:16-17). We know that Psalm 77 refers to times of Redemption, because the name of Joseph is spelled there not in the usual way but with a heh in the middle, i.e. Ye- h-oseph. Adding the heh, is indicative of the heh in the Tetragrammaton, and when added to a name, as to that of Joshua, to be altered into Ye- h-oshua, signifies HaShem's Guidance and redemptive factor added to one's identity.? Perhaps as Joshua brought Israel into the Land, likewise will the latter day moshiach bring all of Israel into the Land. There is more to this, (especially the meaning? of the heh, but I do not have time now, ), please add your contribution to this. A? few more random comments on this Psalm 77:15. I hope you have been following the two haftarah readings so far, and noted how the comments below are taken from them.? Today's Eikev haftara (as well as Vaetchanan's and Reeh's haftarot)? also bear on Psalm 77:15: Isa. 49:18 sees Jacob's injunction to the tribes to gather themselves together in the last days. This is of course Elijah's message as well, "Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations..." Isa. 45:20-22. This is essentially what Elijah told the Ten Tribes in the times of rank idolatrous apostasy of the rule of Ahab and Jezebel, I Kings 18:30-40.? I surmise that the the very same dynamics? of calling the Ten Tribes to "come near", having their "identities restored" to them, confrontation of the reigning spiritual leadership,? the "repair of the altar of the L-RD, i.e. spiritual access be made available again, will be active in the "latter days" 'work of Elijah." Overall, the heart of the wayward children of Israel are to be restored to the heart of the fathers of Biblical faith, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, ( Mal. 4:24), when G-d will "speak to the heart" ["comfortably] of the wayward "wife," (Hos. 2:14, Isa. 40:2, see "Aholah" in Ez. 23:4).? It is important to note that "the heart" of the fathers? is "singular" and that it reachers out to the heart of the children "in the last days" and their heart, singular also, and it reciprocates to the heart of the fathers.? This is the "work of Elijah" in the latter days.? In reality it is the "masculine work" of the gathering arm of "Eli-Yah" and it is much greater than the work of any man.? We get a hint of this in the fact that the name "Elijah" in the Hebrew here, is spelled without a vav, i.e. Eli-Yah, indicating that this is the work of God. Isa. 50:1 this refers obviously to the Ten Tribes, the "wife" who has been put away for her sins, but is not really divorced, because there are no documents attesting to that.? Origen's (St. Augustine's advisor) replacement theology adherents, take note!? The rest of the chapter and 51:1, 7, may refer to those who are called from this lot, are told to look into their past, and are acknowledged here as searching for the "ways of righteousness" but really do not know what to do and where to look.? They are told here to look to Abraham and Sarah, and their spiritual ancestry and legacy in the Divine promises to Abraham and Sarah. Sounds like "us," maybe?? This seems to be "the remnant," the nexus to whom others will be gathered.? Hertz in his Chumash commentary calls these "ideal Israel."? Now I do not want to promote any elitist idea here, that we are some kind of "elite."? We are not in any way, and I think it is a relative term.? We have only one distinction, and even that is not of our own doing.? It is that God has mercifully called us first to awaken in "the end times/ last days" regathering, and that often "we are ready to bear all the uncharitableness and persecution at the hands of their brethren who may be blind and deaf to the signs of the times."? I think this is true in both camps especially those that are called out from traditional Christianity. Some might ask, well if Joseph is "a father of Israel,"? where is that nation?? The answer seems to be in Isa. 55:5:? "Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto thee, because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified thee." 51: 9 seems to be written to us, so we do not lose heart, and trust G-d that He will help us to find the desire of our hearts and to do the job He expects of us and for what he has called us out for from the Valley of Dry Bones.? Gang, this is the "order of the day!" Now that is encouraging.... let us acknowledge our calling in our personal and collective prayers in our fellowships and gatherings.... our job is yet to be done, and we have to be readied to do that.... time is of essence.... BTW, I think Psalm 77:15 is extremely important for us to know about,? I received it as a PR in 1994.? The implications of it are just unfolding now.....? I think they are unfolding now because we need to know about them now. I invite your comments and contributions to this subject during these days of consolation. Steve _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080825/b0cc71d0/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Aug 25 11:06:06 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:06:06 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] VERY appropriate.... In-Reply-To: <8CAD4D616440CF4-17F4-182E@Webmail-mg10.sim.aol.com> References: <8CAD4D616440CF4-17F4-182E@Webmail-mg10.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: Yes, Hanoch it is very appropriate.on many levels. Thanks for sending out. Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 9:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] VERY appropriate.... The Lekarev Report 24 Av 5768 August 25, 2008 Shalom Show me Your ways, O Hashem; teach me Your paths. Guide me in Your truth, and teach me; for You are the G-d of my salvation; for You do I wait all day long. Psalm 25:4-5 _____ Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080825/56331c42/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 11:22:20 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Message-ID: <391762.3680.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Cornie; Just wanted to let you know that I read your e-mail about your grandson Jamie and immediately began to pray for him to have deliverance, stability and healing as he walks through this difficult season in his life.? That is a really tough age and situation to be in.? We will continue to pray. May Hashem bless you with peace and Jamie with his love and grace. Tracy and Lynn ----- Original Message ---- From: Cornie Reimer To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 1:15:15 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Dear ones, all of you, I want to just inform you that wonderful things are happening in my life, and the life of my family. But i feel prompted to ask for your prayers, as i too am praying for you all. You are a very special group of dear souls, fighting the onslaughts of the enemy raging as it were, in stealth and desire to totally ruin especially those who are seeking the truth so sincerely. My earnest plea for prayer at this time and it seems to me is urgent, concerns my 15 year old grandson Jamie. This dear grandson of ours, has been rebelling against his Christian parents, and the church in general, that is, the Mennonite church, who in their own way want to help him too. His parents who happen to be our youngest son Ruben, and Millie his native Indian wife, who have battled what seems like a losing battle trying to get this oldest (of 3 children) an only son, Jamie to get converted to Christianity. Jamie had a serious kidney problem from before he was born. He has been in and out of the hospital all of his life for treatments. About 2 years ago he finally had a kidney transplant, where his dad was the donor. But Jamie has suffered enough abuse by his own dad who is Bi-Polar, and does not understand his own son's heart as it seems, so as a result Jamie wants nothing that Christianity is offering, really I should say, he is trying hard to know what to do with his life.? The last I heard of him, he had applied at the Psychic Ward in the nearest hospital, claiming that he is suicidal, and threatened to sell drugs, as he needs money, (these are mere temptations, but real) and just does not know where to turn or what to do with his life. Jamie is my only grandson who looks up to me and respects me as one he can confide in, I have tried to reach out to him, telling him about our Hebrew roots, being Judaism. But this was hindered, when everything possible was done to keep us apart, because I was not feeding him Christianity. Jamie left home recently, and moved into a home of a middle aged couple, who are sabbath keepers, thinking they must be minded like he was hoping to get help from, he is very interested in Judaism. But very likely he is disappointed with their faith. They were very kind to him, vegetarians, which even seemed to help him fight his health problems. In this new home, he was given an e-mail address of his own, (which he had longed for so long but was previously strictly forbidden) so him and me could now start to have a real, but sadly very short lived connection via e-mails. The Sabbath before the last one, the 16 th of August, they graciously invited me in for the Sabbath with them. That was good and pleasant in itself , ( thanks to the last couple of month of dialoguing with you all, I could understand these peoples sincere desire to serve God, and i am convinced He is leading them? at least to a degree) Of course that is when I learned that really they were still stout Christians, or messianic Jewish, their background was German. His name being Cohen, (Jewish?) They had recently moved here from the USA, led by strong conviction that they should move right into the midst of? exactly this rural Mennonite village in Manitoba Canada. Within a week Jamie has left them (of course losing his right to the internet again) I have only heard from Jamie's 3 week relationship's,? messianic host what happened to Jamie, in a lengthy telephone conversation. I would love to talk with Jamie but all doors seem to be closed again. This couple was really stressing Jamie to become a Christian too, not knowing what his heart was inclined to. We had a very interesting time together, but I knew this was going to be a stiff battle for Jamie, and I did not want to disrupt his stay with these people, because in a way they were a great help to him. with their outreach to his needs. But my guess is that he could not cope with their Christian outreach. So please stand with me in prayer that he will not get thrown into the gutters. My heart is so torn in concerns for Jamie. Shalom Cornelius Reimer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080825/22a4dbb4/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Aug 25 14:52:31 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:52:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A promise that will be kept.... Message-ID: <8CAD5033EDEE300-CB0-131A@Webmail-mg10.sim.aol.com> ??There above it stood the L-RD, and HE said: ?I am the L-RD, the G-d of your father Abraham and the G-d of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.?? Bereshit/Genesis 28:13-15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080825/c8b560c6/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Aug 26 05:42:41 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 06:42:41 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] To rejoice in HaShem.. Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 25 Av 5768 August 26, 2008 Shalom I will rejoice in Hashem, I will exult in the G-d of my salvation. Hashem, the L-rd, is my strength, and He makes my feet like hinds' feet, and He makes me walk upon my high places. Hab. 3:18-19 **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/f3478736/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Aug 26 05:53:33 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 06:53:33 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Spiritual Message of the War in Caucasian Georgia Message-ID: _Click here: Lazer Beams: The Spiritual Message of the War in Caucasian Georgia_ (http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/08/the-spiritual-message-of-the-war-in-caucasian-georgia.html) Very, very interesting... Hanoch **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/341e102b/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Tue Aug 26 06:30:35 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 06:30:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> Thank you Joe, (who called ) Betty, Hanoch, Steve and Helen, and all of you concerned It is comforting to read that all of you are praying for Jamie. You could think what is so different with Jamie than with so many other youth , your hearts could be breaking for , and I don't know if Jamie's situation is different. The pathetically appearing dilemma with Jamie my grandson are, he is a youth of 15 interested in a totally unpopular among his family and friends , end time dilemma, has no support from family and friend's but from a questionable old grandpa who has to be shunned because of his queer belief . I admire his tenacity to go against such odds, and yet, he has to be cut off radio, TV, Internet, or anything where he could get fed in what he believes, it appears he could turn insane but for all your prayers and concerns, and above all else a heavenly father who cares for him in spite of it all.. I am so grateful for all your prayers. Shalom Cornie Betty Givin wrote: > > Yes, and mine too, Cornie. Our children and our grandchildren indeed > have our hearts and when they are hurting we hurt as well.. Fifteen is > such a hard age and such a vulnerable one. I will be praying for > Jamie, that HaShem will touch his heart and he will want to turn his > life around. Love, Betty/Elisheva > > > > * From: * dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of > *YoungBarzel at aol.com > *Sent:* Sunday, August 24, 2008 5:08 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer > > > > My heartfelt prayers are with him, and you, Cornie. May HaShem guide > and protect him, always. > > > > /*/ Hanoch /*/ > > > > It's only a deal if it's where /you/ want to go. Find your travel deal > *here* > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/255dc3e3/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Aug 25 06:36:09 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 07:36:09 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] more on Psalm 77 13-15 In-Reply-To: <8CAD4DF61308C52-17F4-1DB7@Webmail-mg10.sim.aol.com> References: <200808250150.m7P1odqD005346@mail205c25.carrierzone.com> <8CAD4DF61308C52-17F4-1DB7@Webmail-mg10.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <015e01c906a6$c6ad8c50$0400a8c0@marvin> Hanoch is back... he's so funny.. who has any spare time? Hanoch, after you get caught up fill us in on any important details of your trip.. in your spare time of course. marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 11:36 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] more on Psalm 77 13-15 Hey Steve, This is such great stuff, I love to read it! Maybe we can get you to put all of this in a book - you can write it in your spare time! :-) Best regards, Hanoch (back in the Apple) -----Original Message----- From: Steve Mathe To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 9:50 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] more on Psalm 77 13-15 Friends, Tracy, your question wonderfully "coincides" (!) with the Torah and haftara readings of the seven weeks of consolations where many answers are found to the your query. I hope to hammer these thoughts into an article on Psalm 77:15, which has to do with "the gathering." In the mean time, here are a few more new random thoughts interspersed with the old random thoughts.. **************************************************************************** **************************************************************************** **************************************************************************** * This psalm although a personal reflection in a troubled period of the author's life, it is prophetic in subtle ways if we look at the implications and subtle suggestions not just for individuals in similar circumstances but also for the "whole" nation of Israel. It reminds us to recall G-ds' deliverance of Israel in times past, and how He will likewise deliver Israel. Verses 5-6, 11, tell us to meditate on "the days of old and ancient times." This is exactly what 'lost" members of Israel are to do be they from any tribe. Verse 7 speaks of times, when the "casting off" period is to be recalled after a long time and His mercy to be reconsidered because it will be available again, when "their sentence" of exile is to be up, (referred to as the "warfare, time of service " (Isa. 40:2 KJV). See haftarah Vaetchanan of last week. Note: The use of the this word tzava here suggests the time of service, i.e. the time served by a prisoner of war. In a way, all of the Ten Tribes in exile are in the term of their sentence that was extended for 2700 years, starting with the Assytryan conquest of Samaria. Verses 12-13, can reminds us of the "Presence" and His ways disclosed to us in the "sanctuary" of prayers, what I call "the Mishkan of Prayers," because the Temple may not be available.... Verses 14-15 refer to "strength and [gathering] arm" both of which can be metaphors for his "redemptive agency... It may be that verse 15 is one of the quintessential keys to understand "understanding" by the Tribes when this "redemption" and gathering is to be considered by them at a time when all His mercy seems to be have been forgotten.... The "sons of Jacob" is the way of understanding who the descendents of Jacob are, primarily by Jews, and of Jews. Jews have so much forgotten about the ten tribes, that they look upon all Israelites as "Jews." This is similar to the way Renaissance painters painted Biblical scenes and personages in terms of Renaissance architecture and clothes of their own times. Though this is not the case all the time, it is the general outlook and view by most Jews, be they educated or not. They look for "Jewish" trappings among those they consider to be "the lost tribes" not realizing that after having forgotten their names for 2700 years, they will not have any "Jewish" trappings of any sort. For the curse of having their names erased to hold, they could not be holding on to any "Jewish" trappings and identifying signs of any sort. The few traces that remained have not been known or acknowledged widely by them or by Jews. The "sons of Joseph" are mentioned separately here, even though they are the sons of Jacob, because it is a key to understanding as to "how to understand" "Israel" in the last days" when G-d's "strong redemptive and gathering arm" is to be considered to be actively working." This verse calls the prophesied readers' attention to the fact that there will be two groups of "Israel" in the last days, and the sons of Joseph will be "the other" group, headed by the descendents of Joseph, and with him the rest of the prophetic "Ephraim," those of Joseph and his companions, (Ez. 37:15). In that sense, Joseph is considered here in a "prophetic identification manner, to be the one of the "fathers" of [the tribes of] Israel. The Ten Tribes have prophetically followed their "patriarch" Joseph into exile, into "the Egypt of the world" and to "live separate from their brethren," (Gen. 49:26). It is helpful here to remember what "Jacob," popularly understood as "the Jews" in the last days will say in an aggregate, prophetic way, when they will run into the multitudes of Joseph's descendants, (as well as his companions) indentified with him as a group.when Joseph will reveal himself to his brethren. "Israel/ Jacob," i.e. "the Jews of the last days" will say the same thing in the last days as "he / Israel" said in 'the ancient times" to be recalled according to Psalm 77: : "And Israel beheld Joseph's sons and said, Who are these?" (Gen 48:8). We have to remember that Jacob was blind in his "last days" by the time he died, in "his last days," a condition to be on him in his prophesied "Last Days" as the popularly understood and identified Jacob / "the Jews" of "the" last days. "Then shalt thou say in thine heart, "who has begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive and removing to and for? and who hath brought up these? Behold I was left alone, these, where had they been?" Isa. 49:21). See also Isa. 54:1 re "the desolate" wife," and . 15:21, Rachel weeping for her children, not knowing that they were to be increased in numbers, and renewing their strength "in the isles," Isa. 49:20., 42:4, 41:1, 5, 51:5, 42:4, The resolution of this "confusion and blindness" of Israel / Jacob toward identity is resolved in Isa. 63:17 when those in the last days wondering about G-d's vengeance among the nations, especially the Edomite civilization of the last days, will be contemplating G-d's "saving arm," in Isa. 63:5, and will remember the ancient Scriptures of old, the days and writings of Moses, Psalm 77:5, 20, Malachi 3:24. The descendents of Joseph's companions, in times of Jacob's trouble, (Jer. 30:7) will cry out just as in Psalm 77: "Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory. Where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? Are they restrained? (Isa. 63:15). "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not, thou O LORD art our father, our redeemer, thy name is from everlasting. O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from Thy ways and hardened our heart from Thy fear? Return for Thy servants' sake, the tribes of Thine inheritance." Isa. 63:16-17). We know that Psalm 77 refers to times of Redemption, because the name of Joseph is spelled there not in the usual way but with a heh in the middle, i.e. Ye- h-oseph. Adding the heh, is indicative of the heh in the Tetragrammaton, and when added to a name, as to that of Joshua, to be altered into Ye- h-oshua, signifies HaShem's Guidance and redemptive factor added to one's identity. Perhaps as Joshua brought Israel into the Land, likewise will the latter day moshiach bring all of Israel into the Land. There is more to this, (especially the meaning of the heh, but I do not have time now, ), please add your contribution to this. A few more random comments on this Psalm 77:15. I hope you have been following the two haftarah readings so far, and noted how the comments below are taken from them. Today's Eikev haftara (as well as Vaetchanan's and Reeh's haftarot) also bear on Psalm 77:15: Isa. 49:18 sees Jacob's injunction to the tribes to gather themselves together in the last days. This is of course Elijah's message as well, "Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations..." Isa. 45:20-22. This is essentially what Elijah told the Ten Tribes in the times of rank idolatrous apostasy of the rule of Ahab and Jezebel, I Kings 18:30-40. I surmise that the the very same dynamics of calling the Ten Tribes to "come near", having their "identities restored" to them, confrontation of the reigning spiritual leadership, the "repair of the altar of the L-RD, i.e. spiritual access be made available again, will be active in the "latter days" 'work of Elijah." Overall, the heart of the wayward children of Israel are to be restored to the heart of the fathers of Biblical faith, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, ( Mal. 4:24), when G-d will "speak to the heart" ["comfortably] of the wayward "wife," (Hos. 2:14, Isa. 40:2, see "Aholah" in Ez. 23:4). It is important to note that "the heart" of the fathers is "singular" and that it reachers out to the heart of the children "in the last days" and their heart, singular also, and it reciprocates to the heart of the fathers. This is the "work of Elijah" in the latter days. In reality it is the "masculine work" of the gathering arm of "Eli-Yah" and it is much greater than the work of any man. We get a hint of this in the fact that the name "Elijah" in the Hebrew here, is spelled without a vav, i.e. Eli-Yah, indicating that this is the work of God. Isa. 50:1 this refers obviously to the Ten Tribes, the "wife" who has been put away for her sins, but is not really divorced, because there are no documents attesting to that. Origen's (St. Augustine's advisor) replacement theology adherents, take note! The rest of the chapter and 51:1, 7, may refer to those who are called from this lot, are told to look into their past, and are acknowledged here as searching for the "ways of righteousness" but really do not know what to do and where to look. They are told here to look to Abraham and Sarah, and their spiritual ancestry and legacy in the Divine promises to Abraham and Sarah. Sounds like "us," maybe? This seems to be "the remnant," the nexus to whom others will be gathered. Hertz in his Chumash commentary calls these "ideal Israel." Now I do not want to promote any elitist idea here, that we are some kind of "elite." We are not in any way, and I think it is a relative term. We have only one distinction, and even that is not of our own doing. It is that God has mercifully called us first to awaken in "the end times/ last days" regathering, and that often "we are ready to bear all the uncharitableness and persecution at the hands of their brethren who may be blind and deaf to the signs of the times." I think this is true in both camps especially those that are called out from traditional Christianity. Some might ask, well if Joseph is "a father of Israel," where is that nation? The answer seems to be in Isa. 55:5: "Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto thee, because of the LORD thy God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified thee." 51: 9 seems to be written to us, so we do not lose heart, and trust G-d that He will help us to find the desire of our hearts and to do the job He expects of us and for what he has called us out for from the Valley of Dry Bones. Gang, this is the "order of the day!" Now that is encouraging.... let us acknowledge our calling in our personal and collective prayers in our fellowships and gatherings.... our job is yet to be done, and we have to be readied to do that.... time is of essence.... BTW, I think Psalm 77:15 is extremely important for us to know about, I received it as a PR in 1994. The implications of it are just unfolding now..... I think they are unfolding now because we need to know about them now. I invite your comments and contributions to this subject during these days of consolation. Steve _______________________________________________ _____ Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080825/3e562008/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Aug 26 06:40:43 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:40:43 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] more on Psalm 77 13-15 Message-ID: Hey Marvin - Didn't I tell you guys about the Messianic Israel Alliance Convention speech? Man, I just cannot remember...please let me know - thanks! Hanoch **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/28a25639/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 09:07:32 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:07:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> References: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> Message-ID: Dearest Cornie, I'm sorry for being behind on my email reading. I'm trying to catch up and have just read your notes about Jamie. HaSHem has His Hand upon this most precious and beloved neshamah who is your grandson. When I read your posts about him, I realized how similar his calling is to that of my nephew, Cody, who also, against great odds and hardships, followed the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is now in Israel, all alone, but following hard after G-d. It is amazing to me to see these young men being called out of strong Christian backgrounds. Their sacrifices are great, and yet they persevere. You are a "nes" for him - a banner flowing above his head that he can follow, and he is "nes" for you - a miracle of HaShem in your life ("nes" means both banner and miracle). While he may not be able to communicate with you, he can "see" you as a banner, flowing up ahead of him and is tracking your footsteps. His desire to follow your G-d has made your journey worth the pain. Keep going, Cornie!!!! You are doing what you were called to do, and HaSHem has blessed you with this most wonderful "nes"!!! We are all separated by many miles, oceans, and continents, and yet we walk together on this Ancient Path Home to our Father. We are brothers and sisters, and our voices, calling out to one another across this vast cyberspace help unite our One Heart with the Heart of our Biblical Fathers (Malachi 3:24). Our loved ones, for the most part, are unable to understand, but someday they will see the Glory of the One G-d, blessed be He, to Whom we have devoted our lives. May HaShem cradle Jamie in the Palm of His Hand, give him His Shalom-Shalom, and speak His Words into his heart. May he be so inundated by G-d's Love and Protection, that an overwhelming feeling of well-being envelope him wherever he goes. May HaSHem make him aware, in his inward parts, of the heartbeat of this growing throng who accompany his journey, though he's not yet consciously aware of us. I'm praying for him and for you, Cornie. My love to you and Jamie (Yaacov), Avigail/Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Thank you Joe, (who called ) Betty, Hanoch, Steve and Helen, and all of you concerned It is comforting to read that all of you are praying for Jamie. You could think what is so different with Jamie than with so many other youth , your hearts could be breaking for , and I don't know if Jamie's situation is different. The pathetically appearing dilemma with Jamie my grandson are, he is a youth of 15 interested in a totally unpopular among his family and friends , end time dilemma, has no support from family and friend's but from a questionable old grandpa who has to be shunned because of his queer belief . I admire his tenacity to go against such odds, and yet, he has to be cut off radio, TV, Internet, or anything where he could get fed in what he believes, it appears he could turn insane but for all your prayers and concerns, and above all else a heavenly father who cares for him in spite of it all.. I am so grateful for all your prayers. Shalom Cornie Betty Givin wrote: Yes, and mine too, Cornie. Our children and our grandchildren indeed have our hearts and when they are hurting we hurt as well.. Fifteen is such a hard age and such a vulnerable one. I will be praying for Jamie, that HaShem will touch his heart and he will want to turn his life around. Love, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 5:08 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer My heartfelt prayers are with him, and you, Cornie. May HaShem guide and protect him, always. Hanoch It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/bfaae02a/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Aug 26 11:19:31 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: References: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> Message-ID: Beautifully written, Pat, a true expression from the heart of one of HaShem's dear ones who stand in the gap for so many. I love you, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:08 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Dearest Cornie, I'm sorry for being behind on my email reading. I'm trying to catch up and have just read your notes about Jamie. HaSHem has His Hand upon this most precious and beloved neshamah who is your grandson. When I read your posts about him, I realized how similar his calling is to that of my nephew, Cody, who also, against great odds and hardships, followed the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is now in Israel, all alone, but following hard after G-d. It is amazing to me to see these young men being called out of strong Christian backgrounds. Their sacrifices are great, and yet they persevere. You are a "nes" for him - a banner flowing above his head that he can follow, and he is "nes" for you - a miracle of HaShem in your life ("nes" means both banner and miracle). While he may not be able to communicate with you, he can "see" you as a banner, flowing up ahead of him and is tracking your footsteps. His desire to follow your G-d has made your journey worth the pain. Keep going, Cornie!!!! You are doing what you were called to do, and HaSHem has blessed you with this most wonderful "nes"!!! We are all separated by many miles, oceans, and continents, and yet we walk together on this Ancient Path Home to our Father. We are brothers and sisters, and our voices, calling out to one another across this vast cyberspace help unite our One Heart with the Heart of our Biblical Fathers (Malachi 3:24). Our loved ones, for the most part, are unable to understand, but someday they will see the Glory of the One G-d, blessed be He, to Whom we have devoted our lives. May HaShem cradle Jamie in the Palm of His Hand, give him His Shalom-Shalom, and speak His Words into his heart. May he be so inundated by G-d's Love and Protection, that an overwhelming feeling of well-being envelope him wherever he goes. May HaSHem make him aware, in his inward parts, of the heartbeat of this growing throng who accompany his journey, though he's not yet consciously aware of us. I'm praying for him and for you, Cornie. My love to you and Jamie (Yaacov), Avigail/Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Thank you Joe, (who called ) Betty, Hanoch, Steve and Helen, and all of you concerned It is comforting to read that all of you are praying for Jamie. You could think what is so different with Jamie than with so many other youth , your hearts could be breaking for , and I don't know if Jamie's situation is different. The pathetically appearing dilemma with Jamie my grandson are, he is a youth of 15 interested in a totally unpopular among his family and friends , end time dilemma, has no support from family and friend's but from a questionable old grandpa who has to be shunned because of his queer belief . I admire his tenacity to go against such odds, and yet, he has to be cut off radio, TV, Internet, or anything where he could get fed in what he believes, it appears he could turn insane but for all your prayers and concerns, and above all else a heavenly father who cares for him in spite of it all.. I am so grateful for all your prayers. Shalom Cornie Betty Givin wrote: Yes, and mine too, Cornie. Our children and our grandchildren indeed have our hearts and when they are hurting we hurt as well.. Fifteen is such a hard age and such a vulnerable one. I will be praying for Jamie, that HaShem will touch his heart and he will want to turn his life around. Love, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 5:08 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer My heartfelt prayers are with him, and you, Cornie. May HaShem guide and protect him, always. Hanoch It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/fc4d3830/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 12:02:46 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:02:46 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> References: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> Message-ID: Love you too!!!!! It's wonderful to have some time off and be able to play catch up! From: Betty Givin Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 12:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Beautifully written, Pat, a true expression from the heart of one of HaShem's dear ones who stand in the gap for so many. I love you, Betty/Elisheva -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:08 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Dearest Cornie, I'm sorry for being behind on my email reading. I'm trying to catch up and have just read your notes about Jamie. HaSHem has His Hand upon this most precious and beloved neshamah who is your grandson. When I read your posts about him, I realized how similar his calling is to that of my nephew, Cody, who also, against great odds and hardships, followed the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is now in Israel, all alone, but following hard after G-d. It is amazing to me to see these young men being called out of strong Christian backgrounds. Their sacrifices are great, and yet they persevere. You are a "nes" for him - a banner flowing above his head that he can follow, and he is "nes" for you - a miracle of HaShem in your life ("nes" means both banner and miracle). While he may not be able to communicate with you, he can "see" you as a banner, flowing up ahead of him and is tracking your footsteps. His desire to follow your G-d has made your journey worth the pain. Keep going, Cornie!!!! You are doing what you were called to do, and HaSHem has blessed you with this most wonderful "nes"!!! We are all separated by many miles, oceans, and continents, and yet we walk together on this Ancient Path Home to our Father. We are brothers and sisters, and our voices, calling out to one another across this vast cyberspace help unite our One Heart with the Heart of our Biblical Fathers (Malachi 3:24). Our loved ones, for the most part, are unable to understand, but someday they will see the Glory of the One G-d, blessed be He, to Whom we have devoted our lives. May HaShem cradle Jamie in the Palm of His Hand, give him His Shalom-Shalom, and speak His Words into his heart. May he be so inundated by G-d's Love and Protection, that an overwhelming feeling of well-being envelope him wherever he goes. May HaSHem make him aware, in his inward parts, of the heartbeat of this growing throng who accompany his journey, though he's not yet consciously aware of us. I'm praying for him and for you, Cornie. My love to you and Jamie (Yaacov), Avigail/Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Thank you Joe, (who called ) Betty, Hanoch, Steve and Helen, and all of you concerned It is comforting to read that all of you are praying for Jamie. You could think what is so different with Jamie than with so many other youth , your hearts could be breaking for , and I don't know if Jamie's situation is different. The pathetically appearing dilemma with Jamie my grandson are, he is a youth of 15 interested in a totally unpopular among his family and friends , end time dilemma, has no support from family and friend's but from a questionable old grandpa who has to be shunned because of his queer belief . I admire his tenacity to go against such odds, and yet, he has to be cut off radio, TV, Internet, or anything where he could get fed in what he believes, it appears he could turn insane but for all your prayers and concerns, and above all else a heavenly father who cares for him in spite of it all.. I am so grateful for all your prayers. Shalom Cornie Betty Givin wrote: Yes, and mine too, Cornie. Our children and our grandchildren indeed have our hearts and when they are hurting we hurt as well.. Fifteen is such a hard age and such a vulnerable one. I will be praying for Jamie, that HaShem will touch his heart and he will want to turn his life around. Love, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 5:08 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer My heartfelt prayers are with him, and you, Cornie. May HaShem guide and protect him, always. Hanoch It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/23a9c472/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Aug 26 16:10:13 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:10:13 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Dreaming of Moshiach: Recognition of Divine Providence Message-ID: <48B47135.6000305@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080827/a81e2047/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 16:11:28 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Place of Jesus' Crucifixion Message-ID: <697000.43371.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear James, Back in the mid 1980's, I came across a reference to the theory that Yeshua was crucified on the Mt of Olives?(I think it is?the same?one that you give). I have always?remembered it and it simply rang true to me all of these years, just intuitively I guess. When I saw the cover on your book, I meant to ask you about it and forgot. Thanks for the reminder - it will tie in with some of my other presentations. That picture on your book, Yeshua with two thieves, one?on his right hand and one on his left hand,?is quite a contrast with the picture presented where Peter, James & John, went alone with Yeshua and saw him standing in the midst of Moses and Elijah.? Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 1:50:38 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Place of Jesus' Crucifixion See my latest Blog post if this subject interests you. James jesusdynasty.com/blog _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/1ee7f66a/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Aug 26 16:29:22 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:29:22 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] TESHUVA Message-ID: <48B475B2.2070502@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080827/a00a1ddd/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Aug 26 17:24:58 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:24:58 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dreaming of Moshiach: Recognition of Divine Providence In-Reply-To: <48B47135.6000305@westnet.com.au> References: <48B47135.6000305@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <8CAD5E1B54E3E47-11C4-2375@webmail-de07.sysops.aol.com> Shalom Joe!!! ??? WOW!!!? This was some amazing story/video....I still have goose bumps from it....You know, Rav Binny Freedman who I used to work with at Isralight, was also a survivor of the Sbarro's slaughter.? He had ordered a Baked Ziti, and after sitting down and trying it, went back to the counter to have them heat it some more.? When he went to go back to his same seat; there was now a woman sitting in it, so he went to the other end of the store to sit.?? ????He survived the explosion...she did not.....it freaks me out just to think about it. ??? Toda for passing this along. ????Best regards, ??????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 5:10 pm Subject: [Dialogue] Dreaming of Moshiach: Recognition of Divine Providence Shalom Chaverim, We remember the loss of nearly 3000 innocent souls during the terrorist attacks of 9/11, 2001. This is the incredible story of one person who survived. Baruch HaShem. Be sure to watch the attached video. Best and sincerest regards Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2008/08/recognition-of-divine-providence.html _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/d193b17e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Aug 26 17:29:46 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:29:46 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] TESHUVA In-Reply-To: <48B475B2.2070502@westnet.com.au> References: <48B475B2.2070502@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <8CAD5E260BAF8A1-11C4-239F@webmail-de07.sysops.aol.com> Amen, Joe...a thousand times! ????? Hanoch (your cousin in the Big Apple) -----Original Message----- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 5:29 pm Subject: [Dialogue] TESHUVA Shalom Chaverim, I recently posted about the necessity of personal teshuva with regards to the sins of our forefathers. I would like to post a message from Binyamin Golden who picks up the same theme from the Jewish perspective. May we all sit back, take a deep breath and deeply meditate on all our failings as we prepare for the month of Elul. The month of teshuva that begins the 40 day period that culminates on Yom Kippur. May our teshuva culminate with the hope of salvation that is intertwined with the arrival of Mashiach Tzidkeinu. Am Yisrael, we are worrying in these days about the war of Gog uMagog. But the biggest and most dangerous war, the real war of Gog uMagog, is the war of every Jew, between himself and his yetzer hara?. Every Jew must wage war with the yetzer hara and win the battle over him. Right now the yetzer hara is very strong. Because this is the end of all the gilgulim and all his sins are reaching their tikun until now, now we need to repair. Therefore the enemy, the yetzer hara, is at its strongest and cruelest. ?And we must wage war, each one separately, and win the battle, with G-d?s help, over the yetzer hara. In this last period of time, we are re ceiving many warnings?particular as well as general. Almost every house in Yisrael is suffering troubles, every kind of trouble. In the whole wide world, we are standing before a big war. The biggest that ever was in the world and also the cruelest. And now, in addition to this, we have received a new warning, a very difficult warning. Gevald, gevald, gevald! In Bnei Brak, four Torah scrolls were burned in one day, lo aleynu. Who did this? Us? We did not burn them, but our sins burned the Torah scrolls. Our sins, of the chareidim, of the supposedly faithful, burned the Torah scrolls. It doesn?t matter who lit the fire. They are completely evil and Hashem will deal with them. But this is the message to us: That we do not do what the Torah asks of us. We?re learning and guarding the mitzvot, supposedly, but we are lacking much in the mitzvot that we do. We?re lacking; therefore, Am Yisrael receives a warning. Our Torah, the Torah that we supposedly are learning, and the mitzvot that we are trying to do, are not good enough. Missing from our deeds are the heart and the connection to Hashem. Therefore, we must return in teshuva. First thing, to take out the materialism from our lives.... After that, to take out every lie and to live only to do the will of Hashem. In the last days, we received another severe warning, the start of big surprises for all of us. What were the big surprises? The whole world was unaware of the fact that Russia, the big , bad, cruel bear, was already preparing to attack one of the small countries around it. The big bear was like sleeping. In the last years, it was like his character was changed from cruel and bad to a cute teddy bear. Also in this period the gates were opened and the fear from the KGB decreased a lot. Therefore even Jews travel to Russia in order to return other Jews in teshuva, and some for the sake of doing good business there. This is a new phenomenon. Instead of Jews leaving Russia, there?s been the opposite movement. That also, Jews from every kind of place are arriving to Russia. Until today, we?ve been seeing that Russia is already not as strong as she once was and that she is supposedly democratic. But the truth is, she?s completely otherwise?. And the bear is again turning into a giant and monstrous?. Therefore, I want to say to all the Jews who are located in Russia that it is very much worthwhile to pack up the ?Paklakh? and get out fast. In truth, all the world is in great danger. The war in Georgia is only the beginning of the biggest war that has been in the world ? Gog uMagog.... Therefore, what should we do? Jews have one weapon that is the strongest. And that is his tears. Not Russia, not America, and not Iran, not one country has a weapon this strong. The tears of a Jew who cries from a broken heart and wants in truth to do teshuva over all his sins, tears of a Jew who understands that20he has run away from his father?s house and wants now to return. Tears of a Jew who wants so much that his Father in heaven will receive him into the house again. Tears like these will rescue every Jew who makes use of them. Every Jew like this will be saved?.. But the Jews who think that America will save them, or Tzahal will save them or the Europeans will save them, Jews like these are hopeless, chas v?shalom? Atomic bomb, gas or every dirty bomb, every destructive technology that?s invented, from the west and also from the east, it won?t help against one tear of a Jew with a broken heart who wants to do real teshuva. Jews in all the world, we are arriving at the end.... Perhaps a little bit more, but we are at the end. Each one separately needs to go over his whole life and do a personal accounting, to familiarize himself with all his sins and to acknowledge them and to be sorry for them. List them on paper, sit on the floor, the men in sack and ashes, and cry with a broken heart over every sin, one by one. Be sorry that you have caused pain as it were to the Master of the Universe, to our Father in heaven, to our Father, our King. And decide to return in complete teshuva and not to do even one sin and not to distance yourself from HKB?H. Don't forget to sit on the floor with sack and ashes.... And if there are no sack and ashes, tear kriah like a mourner. The women anyway naturally feel this bette r and do not need sack and ashes. A tear of a Jewish mother has more worth than sack and ashes. And to be sorry for the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash, and over all our sins throughout the generations....that caused this... and to request from Hashem to bring Mashiach Tzidkeinu.... Am Yisrael, what else can be said? I sit and cry over all our exile, over the Batei HaMikdash that was destroyed and ask for Mashiach Tzidkeinu.... Shalom v' Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/c13720e4/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Tue Aug 26 21:28:17 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:28:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: References: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <48B4BBC1.4020709@gninc.ca> Tears brim my eyes Pat when I read this so consoling letter from you. I didn't want to worry about Jamie, but to commit him into the loving care of , Baruch Hashem, the one who has Jamie in His hand. But it is so precious to have other brothers and sisters walking along beside us, in this vale where we actually need these valleys, like thunder and lightning can be a balm, rather than something to be scared of. But it is so good to know there are others who somehow understand, bless your hearts. Pat I was starting to wonder where you stayed, or if I was not getting all my e-mails. Shalom Cornie Pat Robbins wrote: > Dearest Cornie, > > I'm sorry for being behind on my email reading. I'm trying to catch > up and have just read your notes about Jamie. > > HaSHem has His Hand upon this most precious and beloved neshamah who > is your grandson. When I read your posts about him, I realized how > similar his calling is to that of my nephew, Cody, who also, against > great odds and hardships, followed the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and > Jacob. He is now in Israel, all alone, but following hard after G-d. > It is amazing to me to see these young men being called out of strong > Christian backgrounds. Their sacrifices are great, and yet they > persevere. > > You are a "nes" for him - a banner flowing above his head that he can > follow, and he is "nes" for you - a miracle of HaShem in your > life ("nes" means both banner and miracle). While he may not be able > to communicate with you, he can "see" you as a banner, flowing up > ahead of him and is tracking your footsteps. His desire to follow > your G-d has made your journey worth the pain. Keep going, > Cornie!!!! You are doing what you were called to do, and HaSHem has > blessed you with this most wonderful "nes"!!! > > We are all separated by many miles, oceans, and continents, and yet we > walk together on this Ancient Path Home to our Father. We are > brothers and sisters, and our voices, calling out to one > another across this vast cyberspace help unite our One Heart with the > Heart of our Biblical Fathers (Malachi 3:24). Our loved ones, for > the most part, are unable to understand, but someday they will see the > Glory of the One G-d, blessed be He, to Whom we have devoted our lives. > > May HaShem cradle Jamie in the Palm of His Hand, give him His > Shalom-Shalom, and speak His Words into his heart. May he be so > inundated by G-d's Love and Protection, that an overwhelming feeling > of well-being envelope him wherever he goes. May HaSHem make him > aware, in his inward parts, of the heartbeat of this growing throng > who accompany his journey, though he's not yet consciously aware of us. > > I'm praying for him and for you, Cornie. > > My love to you and Jamie (Yaacov), > > Avigail/Pat > > *From:* Cornie Reimer > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:30 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer > > Thank you Joe, (who called ) Betty, Hanoch, Steve and Helen, and all > of you concerned > It is comforting to read that all of you are praying for Jamie. You > could think what is so different with Jamie than with so many other > youth , your hearts could be breaking for , and I don't know if > Jamie's situation is different. The pathetically appearing dilemma > with Jamie my grandson are, he is a youth of 15 interested in a > totally unpopular among his family and friends , end time dilemma, has > no support from family and friend's but from a questionable old > grandpa who has to be shunned because of his queer belief . I admire > his tenacity to go against such odds, and yet, he has to be cut off > radio, TV, Internet, or anything where he could get fed in what he > believes, it appears he could turn insane but for all your prayers and > concerns, and above all else a heavenly father who cares for him in > spite of it all.. I am so grateful for all your prayers. > > Shalom > > Cornie > > > > > Betty Givin wrote: >> >> Yes, and mine too, Cornie. Our children and our grandchildren indeed >> have our hearts and when they are hurting we hurt as well.. Fifteen >> is such a hard age and such a vulnerable one. I will be praying for >> Jamie, that HaShem will touch his heart and he will want to turn his >> life around. Love, Betty/Elisheva >> >> >> >> *From: *dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of >> *YoungBarzel at aol.com >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 24, 2008 5:08 PM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer >> >> >> >> My heartfelt prayers are with him, and you, Cornie. May HaShem guide >> and protect him, always. >> >> >> >> /*/ Hanoch /*/ >> >> >> >> It's only a deal if it's where /you/ want to go. Find your travel >> deal *here* >> . >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/7b6364a6/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 21:51:33 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:51:33 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dreaming of Moshiach: Recognition of Divine Providence In-Reply-To: <48B47135.6000305@westnet.com.au> References: <48B47135.6000305@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: This was awesome, Joe!!!! Thank you so much for sharing it with us. ~ Pat From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 5:10 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Dreaming of Moshiach: Recognition of Divine Providence Shalom Chaverim, We remember the loss of nearly 3000 innocent souls during the terrorist attacks of 9/11, 2001. This is the incredible story of one person who survived. Baruch HaShem. Be sure to watch the attached video. Best and sincerest regards Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2008/08/recognition-of-divine-providence.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/da1ba486/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 22:00:24 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:00:24 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> <48B4BBC1.4020709@gninc.ca> References: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> <48B4BBC1.4020709@gninc.ca> Message-ID: Have had to be away from my computer a lot lately, Cornie. I wish Jamie could talk to Cody! I think he would be very encouraged. Maybe someday they will be telling each other their stories! Will continue to pray for him. Love to you and Jamie, Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 10:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Tears brim my eyes Pat when I read this so consoling letter from you. I didn't want to worry about Jamie, but to commit him into the loving care of , Baruch Hashem, the one who has Jamie in His hand. But it is so precious to have other brothers and sisters walking along beside us, in this vale where we actually need these valleys, like thunder and lightning can be a balm, rather than something to be scared of. But it is so good to know there are others who somehow understand, bless your hearts. Pat I was starting to wonder where you stayed, or if I was not getting all my e-mails. Shalom Cornie Pat Robbins wrote: Dearest Cornie, I'm sorry for being behind on my email reading. I'm trying to catch up and have just read your notes about Jamie. HaSHem has His Hand upon this most precious and beloved neshamah who is your grandson. When I read your posts about him, I realized how similar his calling is to that of my nephew, Cody, who also, against great odds and hardships, followed the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is now in Israel, all alone, but following hard after G-d. It is amazing to me to see these young men being called out of strong Christian backgrounds. Their sacrifices are great, and yet they persevere. You are a "nes" for him - a banner flowing above his head that he can follow, and he is "nes" for you - a miracle of HaShem in your life ("nes" means both banner and miracle). While he may not be able to communicate with you, he can "see" you as a banner, flowing up ahead of him and is tracking your footsteps. His desire to follow your G-d has made your journey worth the pain. Keep going, Cornie!!!! You are doing what you were called to do, and HaSHem has blessed you with this most wonderful "nes"!!! We are all separated by many miles, oceans, and continents, and yet we walk together on this Ancient Path Home to our Father. We are brothers and sisters, and our voices, calling out to one another across this vast cyberspace help unite our One Heart with the Heart of our Biblical Fathers (Malachi 3:24). Our loved ones, for the most part, are unable to understand, but someday they will see the Glory of the One G-d, blessed be He, to Whom we have devoted our lives. May HaShem cradle Jamie in the Palm of His Hand, give him His Shalom-Shalom, and speak His Words into his heart. May he be so inundated by G-d's Love and Protection, that an overwhelming feeling of well-being envelope him wherever he goes. May HaSHem make him aware, in his inward parts, of the heartbeat of this growing throng who accompany his journey, though he's not yet consciously aware of us. I'm praying for him and for you, Cornie. My love to you and Jamie (Yaacov), Avigail/Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Thank you Joe, (who called ) Betty, Hanoch, Steve and Helen, and all of you concerned It is comforting to read that all of you are praying for Jamie. You could think what is so different with Jamie than with so many other youth , your hearts could be breaking for , and I don't know if Jamie's situation is different. The pathetically appearing dilemma with Jamie my grandson are, he is a youth of 15 interested in a totally unpopular among his family and friends , end time dilemma, has no support from family and friend's but from a questionable old grandpa who has to be shunned because of his queer belief . I admire his tenacity to go against such odds, and yet, he has to be cut off radio, TV, Internet, or anything where he could get fed in what he believes, it appears he could turn insane but for all your prayers and concerns, and above all else a heavenly father who cares for him in spite of it all.. I am so grateful for all your prayers. Shalom Cornie Betty Givin wrote: Yes, and mine too, Cornie. Our children and our grandchildren indeed have our hearts and when they are hurting we hurt as well.. Fifteen is such a hard age and such a vulnerable one. I will be praying for Jamie, that HaShem will touch his heart and he will want to turn his life around. Love, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 5:08 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer My heartfelt prayers are with him, and you, Cornie. May HaShem guide and protect him, always. Hanoch It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080826/59a8dd1f/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 27 04:04:49 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 02:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Dreaming of Moshiach: Recognition of Divine Providence In-Reply-To: <48B47135.6000305@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <515032.85260.qm@web82502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank you, Joe. This was really wonderful to be reminded that Hashem watches over us all. Psalm 121. Kind regards, Helen JOE INDOMENICO wrote: Shalom Chaverim, We remember the loss of nearly 3000 innocent souls during the terrorist attacks of 9/11, 2001. This is the incredible story of one person who survived. Baruch HaShem. Be sure to watch the attached video. Best and sincerest regards Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2008/08/recognition-of-divine-providence.html _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080827/6205030f/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Aug 27 06:00:07 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:00:07 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A great quote.. Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 26 Av 5768 August 27, 2008 Shalom One thing have I asked of Hashem, that will I seek after: that I may dwell in the house of Hashem all the days of my life, to behold the graciousness of Hashem, and to visit early in His temple. Psalm 27:4 **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080827/44804eb5/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Wed Aug 27 06:34:45 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 06:34:45 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] TESHUVA In-Reply-To: <8CAD5E260BAF8A1-11C4-239F@webmail-de07.sysops.aol.com> References: <48B475B2.2070502@westnet.com.au> <8CAD5E260BAF8A1-11C4-239F@webmail-de07.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <48B53BD5.5080704@gninc.ca> How meaningful Joe, and it opened my eye's more fully this morning when I read the following daily reading by Avraham Greenbaum's study notes . It is a bit long, but It explains so vividly why the apple of Hashem's eye, the land of Israel, in the center of the earth, has to still in our day, be destroyed again and again. It is not enough for me to be a pious seat warmer in church, in order for peace to come to this planet. I need to take to heart what a just and righteous Sovereign Creator expects of me. A wonderfully created human being, made in His image, yet privileged to choose life or death. And to choose life, we are choosing a life that brings forth joy and happiness in a lasting way, by the grace and mercy of, Baruch Hashem Abba Father, that does not need to be covered with a camouflage of self righteous piety. Cornie EZEKIEL CHAPTER 33 THE WATCHMAN Following his lengthy series of prophecies against Israel's various oppressors (chapters 25-32), Ezekiel now addresses his own people, who after losing their Temple and going into exile among the nations would only merit redemption and restoration through Teshuvah, repentance. The prophecy in verses 1-20 of our present chapter is a teaching about Teshuvah and how God deals with sinners and tzaddikim. Verses 1-6 set forth the allegory of the watchman, who has the obligation to warn the people of a coming war. As long as he sounds his shofar of alarm, he has fully discharged his duty, and if the people of the city fail to heed his message and take appropriate precautions, they themselves bear full responsibility for all the harm that befalls them. Verses 7ff explain the allegory. The watchman is a metaphor for the prophet, who when he hears from the mouth of God about impending retribution (="war") has the obligation to warn the people in His name, in order that they should repent (see Metzudas David on v 7). "The sound of the shofar is the word of the prophet, as it says, 'Raise your voice like a shofar and tell My people their sin'" (Isaiah 58:1; RaDaK on v 7). If the prophet does indeed warn the people, he has fulfilled his duty, but if he fails to warn them he will bear the responsibility for their failure to repent and will be held to account. However, the people had fallen into despair, and did not believe in the efficacy of repentance. "Thus you speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins are upon us and we are wasting away in them, how should we then live?" (verse 10). Metzudas David explains what the people were saying: "In truth we have committed sins and transgressions and we are wasting away because of our troubles, which have not come upon us for nothing. But how can we live ? how can we be saved from destruction? ? because they did not believe that Teshuvah would help, and it was as if they were saying that therefore they would continue sinning, since they were lost anyway" (Metzudas David on v 10). In answer to the people's despair, verses 11ff reveal God's ways of judgment, teaching that repentance ALWAYS avails the sinner. Righteousness brings LIFE to a person in this world and the next, while sin brings DEATH to a person in this world and the next. God is not cruelly vindictive, and has no desire for the sinner to die but rather that he should repent of his ways and live. God's "arm" is always outstretched to receive the penitent sinner. On the other hand, even one who has spent a lifetime in the pursuit of righteousness is not allowed to become complacent. "The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him on the day of his transgression?" (v 11). God will exact retribution from a wayward tzaddik who gives himself permission to sin in the belief that he can somehow "afford" it since any sin should be outweighed by his many past merits. "Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai said, Even if a person was a complete tzaddik all his days but rebelled at the end, he looses his earlier merits, as it says, 'The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him on the day of his transgression?'. And even if he was a complete sinner all his days but he repented in the end, his wickedness will not be invoked against him any more as it says, '?but as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble in it on the day when he repents of his wickedness'" (Kiddushin 40b). "Yet the children of your people say, 'The way of HaShem is unfair' ? but it is their way that is unfair" (v 17). The people argued that "it was unfair to judge a person according to his later deeds, because they thought it would be more proper to take into account his earlier deeds together with his later deeds and weigh them against each other in order to reach a verdict" (Metzudas David ad loc.). At first sight it may indeed seem that people should be judged according to the aggregate of all their deeds, but in fact there is more compassion in judging them for their later deeds. This way the wicked person is able to repent and attain life even after a career of evil. And if a tzaddik lapses from his righteousness and sins, it is considered a benefit for him if he dies and is taken from the world, because then he can no longer sin (Metzudas David on v 19). Righteousness and evil cannot simply be weighed one against the other because they are two entirely different categories. When a person carries out a mitzvah or good deed, he attaches himself to LIFE, gaining a reward that is beyond limits, above time. But when a person sins, he binds himself to this finite, time-bound world, which can only end in limitation and death. "Today if you will listen to His voice" (Sanhedrin 98a): Repentance must always be TODAY ? not yesterday or tomorrow ? because repentance is above time. There is only now. THE FUGITIVE "And it was in the twelfth year of our exile in the tenth month?" (verse 21). This was in the twelfth year counting from the exile of King Yeho-yachin, with whom Ezekiel had come to Babylon, and who was succeeded by King Tzedekiah. Metzudas David (ad loc.) states that the years are counted from Tishri while the months are counted from Nissan. Thus the "twelfth year" began in Tishri, almost two months after 9 Av of the "eleventh year", which was when the Temple was destroyed. The arrival of the escaped fugitive in Babylon bearing the tragic news came in the "tenth month" of the twelfth year, i.e. Teves, nearly five full months after the event. In the absence of today's instantaneous relay of news via satellite, etc., it was all the more remarkable that Ezekiel had already been informed of the news through holy spirit and told it to others the evening prior to the arrival of the fugitive. This was in fulfillment of God's promise to him in his earlier prophecy about the loss of his wife, symbolizing the destruction of the Temple, that "on that day, the fugitive will come to you to cause you to hear it with your ears. On that day your mouth will be opened and you will speak, and you will be dumb no more" (ch 24 vv 26-7). With the actual arrival of the fugitive now bearing a first-hand eye-witness report of the very destruction that Ezekiel had specifically prophesied, the people would know that he was a true prophet. But even after the destruction of the Temple, the people could still not believe that they had lost the Land of Israel (vv 23f). Indeed, a residue of "the people who had nothing" still remained in Judea tending the vineyards and fields (Jeremiah 39:10) until the assassination of the Babylonian-appointed governor, Gedaliah ben Achikam. They apparently believed that they could retain their hold on the land, arguing that "Abraham was one yet he inherited the land, whereas we are many ? to us the land has been given as an inheritance" (verse 24 of our present chapter). Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai explained that they were saying, "If Abraham, who was only given one commandment (circumcision), inherited the land, how much more so should we, who have received many commandments, receive the land as our inheritance" (see Rashi on v 24; see Tosephta Sotah for other midrashim on this verse, and Likutey Moharan, Intro to Part II, for Rabbi Nachman's inspiring explanation of the phrase "Abrah am was one"). But God's reply to the people was that "You eat with the blood and lift up your eyes to your idols and shed blood ? shall you then possess the land?" (v 25). Verses 27-29 warn that the land would be completely destroyed because of their sins. Those who want Israel to remain intact in our land today should take heed. In verses 30-33 God warns Ezekiel not to be deceived by the outwardly pious manner of those in Babylon who came to him to enquire about the latest word of prophecy, because they too were still far from genuine repentance, looking on his prophecies scornfully as "a song for flutes by one who has a pleasant voice who can play the instrument well ? for they hear the words but they do not carry them out" (v 32). But harsh reality would finally bring them to know that they had a prophet in their midst. CHAPTER 34 THE SHEPHERDS OF ISRAEL The prophecy in this chapter is an indictment of the corrupt leadership of Israel which applies until today. The leaders are supposed to be the "shepherds" who feed and pasture the flock of the people, but instead they feed themselves, taking the fat, the meat and the wool of the best and healthiest for themselves, while abandoning the weak, sickly, broken, scattered and lost (cf. Zechariah 11:15-17). The failure of the leaders has left the people like a scattered flock exposed to the ravages of wild beasts. Verses 7-10 warn the shepherds that God will depose them from their position of leadership. In the very beautiful passage of comfort in verses 11ff, God promises that in place of the corrupt leadership of the people, He Himself will pasture the flock. This corresponds to His promise that when the people will repent, "HaShem your God will turn your captivity and have compassion upon you and will return and gather you from all the nations? If your outcasts be at the utmost parts of heaven, from there will HaShem your God gather you and from there will He fetch you?" (Deuteronomy 30:3-4). These promises that God extends personal providence to each and every one of us in order to bring us to follow His ways should be a comfort to all those who feel they can still find no true leader of flesh and blood to guide them. "And as for you, My flock? behold I judge between one lamb and another" ? between those with powerful fists and the weak" (verse 17 and Rashi ad loc.). It is not sufficient for the corrupt leaders to be removed: the people at the grass roots must change their ways and enter the mode of helping one another instead of each being bent on the pursuit of his own selfish interests at the expense of everyone else. "Is it a small thing to you that you have eaten up the good pasture but you must also tread down with your feet the residue of the pasture lands?" (v 18). It is permitted to eat and enjoy, but the individual citizen must realize that it is immoral for him to wantonly consume, despoil the environment and squander resources instead of protecting and preserving them for the common good. Similarly, it is immoral for farmers to destroy produce in times of a glut in order to keep prices "stable" at the same time as many people are starving. In vv 20f God warns that He will bring the strong and mighty to judgment for oppressing the weak. This is the compassionate diametrical opposite of the philosophy of Nietzsche. "And I will establish one shepherd over them, namely my servant David" ? "i.e. a king from his seed" (v 23 and Rashi ad loc.). "And I will make them and the places around My hill a blessing" (verse 26) ? "And I will cause them to dwell around My Temple, and they will be blessed" (Targum ad loc.). "But you are My flock, the flock of My pasturing, you are ADAM" (v 31) ? "You are called ADAM but the idol worshipers are not called ADAM" (Yevamos 61a). All true members of Israel are encompassed under the noble form of ADAM ? "and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness of the appearance of ADAM upon it from above" (Ezekiel 1:27). youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: > Amen, Joe...a thousand times! > > */Hanoch /* (your cousin in the Big Apple) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: JOE INDOMENICO > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 5:29 pm > Subject: [Dialogue] TESHUVA > > / Shalom Chaverim, > / > / > I recently posted about the necessity of personal teshuva with regards > to the sins of our forefathers. I would like to post a message from > Binyamin Golden who picks up the same theme from the Jewish > perspective. May we all sit back, take a deep breath and deeply > meditate on all our failings as we prepare for the month of Elul. The > month of teshuva that begins the 40 day period that culminates on Yom > Kippur. > / > / May our teshuva culminate with the hope of salvation that is > intertwined with the arrival of Mashiach Tzidkeinu. > / > / > / > / > > / >> >> Am Yisrael, we are worrying in these days about the war of Gog >> uMagog. But the biggest and most dangerous war, the real war of Gog >> uMagog, is the war of every Jew, between himself and his yetzer hara?. >> >> Every Jew must wage war with the yetzer hara and win the battle over >> him. Right now the yetzer hara is very strong. Because this is the >> end of all the gilgulim and all his sins are reaching their tikun >> until now, now we need to repair. Therefore the enemy, the yetzer >> hara, is at its strongest and cruelest. ?And we must wage war, each >> one separately, and win the battle, with G-d?s help, over the yetzer >> hara. >> >> In this last period of time, we are receiving many >> warnings?particular as well as general. Almost every house in Yisrael >> is suffering troubles, every kind of trouble. In the whole wide >> world, we are standing before a big war. The biggest that ever was in >> the world and also the cruelest. >> >> And now, in addition to this, we have received a new warning, a very >> difficult warning. Gevald, gevald, gevald! In Bnei Brak, four Torah >> scrolls were burned in one day, lo aleynu. >> >> Who did this? Us? We did not burn them, but our sins burned the Torah >> scrolls. Our sins, of the chareidim, of the supposedly faithful, >> burned the Torah scrolls. It doesn?t matter who lit the fire. They >> are completely evil and Hashem will deal with them. >> >> But this is the message to us: That we do not do what the Torah asks >> of us. We?re learning and guarding the mitzvot, supposedly, but we >> are lacking much in t he mitzvot that we do. We?re lacking; >> therefore, Am Yisrael receives a warning. Our Torah, the Torah that >> we supposedly are learning, and the mitzvot that we are trying to do, >> are not good enough. Missing from our deeds are the heart and the >> connection to Hashem. Therefore, we must return in teshuva. >> >> First thing, to take out the materialism from our lives.... After >> that, to take out every lie and to live only to do the will of Hashem. >> >> In the last days, we received another severe warning, the start of >> big surprises for all of us. What were the big surprises? The whole >> world was unaware of the fact that Russia, the big, bad, cruel bear, >> was already preparing to attack one of the small countries around it. >> >> The big bear was like sleeping. In the last years, it was like his >> character was changed from cruel and bad to a cute teddy bear. Also >> in this period the gates were opened and the fear from the KGB >> decreased a lot. Therefore even Jews travel to Russia in order to >> return other Jews in teshuva, and some for the sake of doing good >> business there. This is a new phenomenon. Instead of Jews leaving >> Russia, there?s been the opposite movement. That also, Jews from >> every kind of place are arriving to Russia. Until today, we?ve been >> seeing that Russia is already not as strong as she once was and that >> she is supposedly democratic. But the truth=2 0is, she?s completely >> otherwise?. And the bear is again turning into a giant and monstrous?. >> >> Therefore, I want to say to all the Jews who are located in Russia >> that it is very much worthwhile to pack up the ?Paklakh? and get out >> fast. >> >> In truth, all the world is in great danger. The war in Georgia is >> only the beginning of the biggest war that has been in the world ? >> Gog uMagog.... >> >> Therefore, what should we do? Jews have one weapon that is the >> strongest. And that is his tears. Not Russia, not America, and not >> Iran, not one country has a weapon this strong. >> >> The tears of a Jew who cries from a broken heart and wants in truth >> to do teshuva over all his sins, tears of a Jew who understands that >> he has run away from his father?s house and wants now to return. >> Tears of a Jew who wants so much that his Father in heaven will >> receive him into the house again. Tears like these will rescue every >> Jew who makes use of them. Every Jew like this will be saved?.. >> >> But the Jews who think that America will save them, or Tzahal will >> save them or the Europeans will save them, Jews like these are >> hopeless, chas v?shalom? Atomic bomb, gas or every dirty bomb, every >> destructive technology that?s invented, from the west=2 0and also >> from the east, it won?t help against one tear of a Jew with a broken >> heart who wants to do real teshuva. >> >> Jews in all the world, we are arriving at the end.... Perhaps a >> little bit more, but we are at the end. Each one separately needs to >> go over his whole life and do a personal accounting, to familiarize >> himself with all his sins and to acknowledge them and to be sorry for >> them. >> >> List them on paper, sit on the floor, the men in sack and ashes, and >> cry with a broken heart over every sin, one by one. Be sorry that you >> have caused pain as it were to the Master of the Universe, to our >> Father in heaven, to our Father, our King. And decide to return in >> complete teshuva and not to do even one sin and not to distance >> yourself from HKB?H. >> >> Don't forget to sit on the floor with sack and ashes.... And if there >> are no sack and ashes, tear kriah like a mourner. The women anyway >> naturally feel this better and do not need sack and ashes. A tear of >> a Jewish mother has more worth than sack and ashes. >> >> And to be sorry for the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash, and over >> all our sins throughout the generations....that caused this... and to >> request from Hashem to bring Mashiach Tzidkeinu.... >> >> Am Yisrael, what else can be said? I sit and cry over all o ur exile, >> over the Batei HaMikdash that was destroyed and ask for Mashiach >> Tzidkeinu.... > / Shalom v' Ahavah > JOE. > / > _______________________________________________ > Get the MapQuest Toolbar > . Directions, > Traffic, Gas Prices & More! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080827/654bb9f7/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Wed Aug 27 06:41:15 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 06:41:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: References: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> <48B4BBC1.4020709@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <48B53D5B.3040204@gninc.ca> Pat one of the last words I heard Jamie telling me personally was, he wants to go to Israel with me together. And I had not even mentioned anything about going. This came from his heart. I look forward to those two meeting one day. Thank you for sharing. I have to run along to work. Cornie Pat Robbins wrote: > Have had to be away from my computer a lot lately, Cornie. > > I wish Jamie could talk to Cody! I think he would be very > encouraged. Maybe someday they will be telling each other their > stories! Will continue to pray for him. > > Love to you and Jamie, > > Pat > > *From:* Cornie Reimer > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 26, 2008 10:28 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer > > Tears brim my eyes Pat when I read this so consoling letter from you. > I didn't want to worry about Jamie, but to commit him into the loving > care of , Baruch Hashem, the one who has Jamie in His hand. But it > is so precious to have other brothers and sisters walking along beside > us, in this vale where we actually need these valleys, like thunder > and lightning can be a balm, rather than something to be scared of. > But it is so good to know there are others who somehow understand, > bless your hearts. > > Pat I was starting to wonder where you stayed, or if I was not getting > all my e-mails. > > Shalom > > Cornie > > > > > Pat Robbins wrote: >> Dearest Cornie, >> >> I'm sorry for being behind on my email reading. I'm trying to catch >> up and have just read your notes about Jamie. >> >> HaSHem has His Hand upon this most precious and beloved neshamah who >> is your grandson. When I read your posts about him, I realized how >> similar his calling is to that of my nephew, Cody, who also, against >> great odds and hardships, followed the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and >> Jacob. He is now in Israel, all alone, but following hard after >> G-d. It is amazing to me to see these young men being called out of >> strong Christian backgrounds. Their sacrifices are great, and yet >> they persevere. >> >> You are a "nes" for him - a banner flowing above his head that he can >> follow, and he is "nes" for you - a miracle of HaShem in your >> life ("nes" means both banner and miracle). While he may not be able >> to communicate with you, he can "see" you as a banner, flowing up >> ahead of him and is tracking your footsteps. His desire to follow >> your G-d has made your journey worth the pain. Keep going, >> Cornie!!!! You are doing what you were called to do, and HaSHem has >> blessed you with this most wonderful "nes"!!! >> >> We are all separated by many miles, oceans, and continents, and yet >> we walk together on this Ancient Path Home to our Father. We are >> brothers and sisters, and our voices, calling out to one >> another across this vast cyberspace help unite our One Heart with the >> Heart of our Biblical Fathers (Malachi 3:24). Our loved ones, for >> the most part, are unable to understand, but someday they will see >> the Glory of the One G-d, blessed be He, to Whom we have devoted our >> lives. >> >> May HaShem cradle Jamie in the Palm of His Hand, give him His >> Shalom-Shalom, and speak His Words into his heart. May he be so >> inundated by G-d's Love and Protection, that an overwhelming feeling >> of well-being envelope him wherever he goes. May HaSHem make him >> aware, in his inward parts, of the heartbeat of this growing throng >> who accompany his journey, though he's not yet consciously aware of us. >> >> I'm praying for him and for you, Cornie. >> >> My love to you and Jamie (Yaacov), >> >> Avigail/Pat >> >> *From:* Cornie Reimer >> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:30 AM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer >> >> Thank you Joe, (who called ) Betty, Hanoch, Steve and Helen, and all >> of you concerned >> It is comforting to read that all of you are praying for Jamie. You >> could think what is so different with Jamie than with so many other >> youth , your hearts could be breaking for , and I don't know if >> Jamie's situation is different. The pathetically appearing dilemma >> with Jamie my grandson are, he is a youth of 15 interested in a >> totally unpopular among his family and friends , end time dilemma, >> has no support from family and friend's but from a questionable old >> grandpa who has to be shunned because of his queer belief . I admire >> his tenacity to go against such odds, and yet, he has to be cut off >> radio, TV, Internet, or anything where he could get fed in what he >> believes, it appears he could turn insane but for all your prayers >> and concerns, and above all else a heavenly father who cares for him >> in spite of it all.. I am so grateful for all your prayers. >> >> Shalom >> >> Cornie >> >> >> >> >> Betty Givin wrote: >>> >>> Yes, and mine too, Cornie. Our children and our grandchildren >>> indeed have our hearts and when they are hurting we hurt as well.. >>> Fifteen is such a hard age and such a vulnerable one. I will be >>> praying for Jamie, that HaShem will touch his heart and he will want >>> to turn his life around. Love, Betty/Elisheva >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >>> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of >>> *YoungBarzel at aol.com >>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 24, 2008 5:08 PM >>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer >>> >>> >>> >>> My heartfelt prayers are with him, and you, Cornie. May HaShem >>> guide and protect him, always. >>> >>> >>> >>> /*/ Hanoch /*/ >>> >>> >>> >>> It's only a deal if it's where /you/ want to go. Find your travel >>> deal *here* >>> . >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080827/fa952315/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 06:59:10 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 04:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] The BRANCH Message-ID: <140995.31445.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> There were?2 "branches" to this Original Subject of Noachide precepts?that sprouted forth from the 'stump' of Marvin: #1) Marvin followed by me and Steve, and then, #2) Marvin?started followed by James and myself. Due to the lengthy nature of this 'branch' I'm going to introduce it under the subject line of "The Branch". For the sake of those who may not have kept up with this, I am copying the conversation under this new subject line for your convenience. If you have not followed this you might want to start at the beginning. ____________________________________________________ ? Isa 4:2 ?In that day shall The BRANCH?{tsemech} of the LORD be beautiful and glorious....Isa 9:6(9:5)For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; Isa 9:7(9:6)That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this. JPS Translation ? Isa 11:1 And there shall come fortha?Twig [choter]?2415out of the?stumpof Jesse,and a?Sprout [a netsar]5342shall growout of his roots [sheresh]: {In this verse, [choter, a netsar, sheresh] there is a composite picture here, elsewhere described asThe BRANCH. This Shaliach, who will rebuild the Temple, and purge the sons of Levi - HE IS LIKE UNTO MOSES - An Agent Sent and ANOINTED BY HASHEM TO PREPARE THE WAY AND THE HOLY PLACE FOR HASHEM}Isa 11:2And the spiritof the LORDshall restuponhim, the spiritof wisdomand understanding,the spiritof counseland might,the spiritof knowledgeand of the fearof the LORD;Isa 11:3And shall make him of quick understandingin the fearof the LORD:and he shall notjudgeafter the sightof his eyes,neitherreproveafter the hearingof his ears:Isa 11:4But with righteousnessshall he judgethe poor,and reprovewith equityfor the meekof the earth:and he shall smitethe earthwith the rodof his mouth,and with the breathof his lipsshall he slaythe wicked. ? UPON THE THRONE OF DAVID, IN?THE TENT OF DAVID, THE BRANCH SHALL SIT Isa 16:5And in mercyshall the thronebe established:and he shall situponit in truth in the tabernacleof David,judging,and seekingjudgment,and hastingrighteousness. Jer 23:5Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David {this is not David}?a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. Jer 23:6 Jer 33:15In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. Jer 33:16In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the namewherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.Notice how this ties in with Joel 3 below.? ??In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this ishis name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Isa 1:26And I {HaShem, thru the process that HE HIMSELF inaugurates thru His Shaliach, The BRANCH} will restorethy judges as at the first, and thy counselors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, "The cityof righteousness,the faithfulcity."Isa 1:27?Zionshall be redeemed {ransomed}6299with judgment,and her converts {returnees}with righteousness. TURNING TO THE BOOK OF JOEL ? Joel 3:1(4:1)For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, ? During this time-period described in verse 1: (A) The BRANCH comes forth with signs and wonders,?and Sits down on The Throne of David in The Tent of David. He?unites ??? ??? Yehudah by establishing and clarifying?The Precepts of the Torah among the Elders of the Land {Isaiah 11:1} ??????? "...and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee." {Zachariah 2:11b} (B)? Great Repentance, weeping & mourning will begin?as?the spirit of grace and supplications is poured out {Zachariah 12:10}? (C) ?The High Priest, and?then, The Sons of Levi are purified {Zachariah?3 & Malachi 3} (D)? The Temple is Built {Zachariah 6:12, 13} (E)? The Glory of HaShem descends upon The Temple into the Holy of Holies {Malachi 3:5 ; Zachariah 14:5} (F)? The surrounding nations grow angry with the pronouncements and the actions being taken, and so, they, attempt to?attack ??? ??? ??? Judah and?Jerusalem, but HaShem is its defense. {Zachariah 2:5} ______________________________ Summaraizing: ? HASHEM?sends The BRANCH - The Menorah - His Shaliach like unto Moses {himself a Priest & King, like unto Moses, and like unto Malchi-Zedek, and like unto David} The 2 Olive Trees are? ...DAVIDIC?Descendent?- like unto Zerubavel?????? ?and a?????????The HIGH PRIEST like unto Yehoshua... They stand on the right & left hand of The Lord of the Whole Earth (HaShem in the person of His Shaliach) The Branch Comes First followed by The High Priest and King, and then, HaShem descends. After the attack on Judah & Jerusalem, And HASHEM's Deliverance The BRANCH is exalted as The Greatest of the Kings of the earth. ? ? ___________________________________ See this pattern with Moses in Numbers 17:10-16 ? HASHEM sends Moses, like unto The BRANCH to come?- The Menorah - His Shaliach {himself a Priest & King, and like unto Malchi-Zedek} The 2 Olive Trees are Hur ben Yehudah????? and a????? Aaron ben Levi They stand on the right & left hand of The Lord of the Whole Earth (HaShem in the person of His Shaliach) Moses (The Shaliach) Yehoshua ben Nun ben Ephraim conquers Amalek Moses builds an altar HASHEM comes down on Mt Sinai ? __________________________________ ?There is more to this pattern; However, I'll save it for later.?? Zec 6:13 [#1] sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall [#2]be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both [The Kingship & The Priesthood]. Psa 89:27Also I will make him myfirstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Psa 72:8?? He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. Zec 9:9??? Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he isjust[tsadiq?], and having salvation[a savior/deliverer; lowly[humble],?and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zec 9:10And??I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall befrom sea evento sea, and from the river evento the ends of the earth. ? I havn't forgotten Joel.?Joel 3:1(4:1)For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, ? Following the pattern already stated, HASHEM COMES to His Temple ? Joel 3:2(4:2)I {HaShem} will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and divided My land. (4:3)And they have cast lots for My people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, and have drunk. (4:4)And also what are ye to Me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the regions of Philistia? will ye render retribution on My behalf? and if ye render retribution on My behalf, swiftly, speedily will I return your retribution upon your own head. (4:5)Forasmuch as ye have taken My silver and My gold, and have carried into your temples My goodly treasures; (4:6)the children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the sons of Jevanim, that ye might remove them far from their border; (4:7)behold, I will stir them up out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your retribution upon your own head; (4:8)and I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the men of Sheba, to a nation far off; for the LORD hath spoken. (4:9)Proclaim ye this among the nations, prepare war; stir up the mighty men; let all the men of war draw near, let them come up. (4:10)Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning-hooks into spears; let the weak say: 'I am strong.' (4:11)Haste ye, and come, all ye nations round about, and gather yourselves together; thither cause Thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD! (4:12)Let the nations be stirred up, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. (4:13)Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; come, tread ye, for the winepress is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. (4:14)Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. (4:15)The sun and the moon are become black, and the stars withdraw their shining. (4:16)And the LORD shall roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake; but the LORD will be a refuge unto His people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel. (4:17)So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God, dwelling in Zion My holy mountain; then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. (4:18)And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down sweet wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the brooks of Judah shall flow with waters; and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. (4:19)Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. (4:20)But Judah shall be inhabited for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. (4:21)And I will hold as innocent their blood that I have not held as innocent; and the LORD dwelleth in Zion. Joel 3:3 Joel 3:4 Joel 3:5 Joel 3:6 Joel 3:7 Joel 3:8 Joel 3:9 Joel 3:10 Joel 3:11 Joel 3:12 Joel 3:13 Joel 3:14 Joel 3:15 Joel 3:16 Joel 3:17 Joel 3:18 Joel 3:19 Joel 3:20 Joel 3:21 ?And he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall JPS Translation ? ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 7:38:50 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Hello Marvin, ? I did as you suggested. However, 'the flow' still suggests to me, that this refining process is being carried out by HaShem's Messenger. This refining process seems to be?part of the 'preparing the way' for HaShem's return. I'm trying to pay close attention to the contrast of the "I" and "he". I realize translations differ slightly in punctuation. ? ??????????? Mal 3:1....And?The Messenger {Malachi - Shaliach - The BRANCH} of the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. ? HaShem comes after "the way" is prepared in verse five: ? ??? Mal 3:5And I will come near to you to judgment... ? Thanks, Tracy ? ----- Original Message ---- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 5:53:15 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Tracy, ? I have not forgotten you, been really busy.?? Take another look at verse 2 and 3. Is the ?his?, ?he? referring to the messenger or to the one doing the sending?? I would suggested the refiner and one who does the purifying is none other then Hashem. ? Shalom ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:04 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts ? Sirs, with your permission, may I continue, fully open to your imput: Many directions to "branch" out here [no pun intended]; However,?may I?follow this vein for now? ? It is quite appropo that I move on to Malachi Chapter 3 here, especially since "The BRANCH" is?one of the?subjects of the first blessing that our brother Yehudah prays daily,?The Amidah Prayer, and is 'capped', so to speak, with this chapter three verse three. ?How marvelous the sages have arranged this prayer!!!? And I encourage ALL Ephramites to begin to pray this AMIDAH prayer!! For it encapsulates the prophetic flow of the prophets!! Mal 3:1 Behold, I {HaShem} will send {shalach} My Messenger {Malachi - Shaliach[sent one]?- The BRANCH}, and he {the Shaliach - The BRANCH} shall prepare the way before me {HaShem}: and the Lord {HaShem}, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His Temple {which has been rebuilt by The BRANCH - remember Zachariah 6:12, 13}.?And?The Messenger {Malachi - Shaliach - The BRANCH} of the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming {The One Like Unto Moses - Malachi - Shaliach - The BRANCH}? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto The LORD an offering in righteousness. Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto The LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. Apparently then, Y-a-h-u-w-e-h? E-lo-him does not come until sometime AFTER "The BRANCH" comes and sets "his feet" upon the Mount of Olives, gathers and reveals himself to the Elders, and then, they & he, will rebuild The Beit HaMikdash {The Temple}. ? THIS PROPHET LIKE UNTO MOSES {The Malachi, The Shaliach, The BRANCH} prepares the service for The Temple. Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. We shall turn unto Joel next... ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? ? ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:35:17 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts For your consideration and comment. ? With Dr. Tabor?s words, I?m reminded that ? Several years ago, while I slept, I was given a Dream/Vision: I sat with the Scriptures in front of me. Someone stood behind me, reaching over my shoulder pointing down to the prophets. He drew forth a theme and stated it this way: "WHEN HE COMES, THE NATIONS SHALL LIFT UP A BANNER DECLARING, ?Y-H-W-H REIGNS?. I awakened. The "HE" was not identified; But, I have always assumed that it meant the coming of the Messiah. Maybe I assumed wrong - The "HE" could very well have meant HaShem Himself. But....maybe not. You will not catch me murmuring and complaining either way. However, I?ll take a closer look. Y?all let me know what you think...No doubt that the varying 1st, 2nd, 3rd, person speech, with the several personalities involved in Zachariah gets complicated....and I don?t claim to have it all together...this may take a little meditation....but, here goes... ? Zec 2:1I [Zachariah] lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a manwith a measuring line in his hand. Zec 2:2 Then said I [Zachariah] , Whither goest thou? And hesaid unto me, "To measure Jerusalem , to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof." Zec 2:3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, Zec 2:4 And said unto him, "Run, speak to this young man, saying, "Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: Zec 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her." ? { Does this YOUNG MAN begin to speak in the first person in verse 6? And, if so, is he The Prophet like unto Moses, in whose mouth, HaShem puts His words?Remember the verse: Deut 18:15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.} ? Zec 2:6 "Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwells with the daughter of Babylon . Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath HE [HaShem] sent me[the young man] unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that touches you touches the apple of HIS [HaShem] eye. Zec 2:9 For, behold, I [the young man] will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me [the young man]. Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion : for, lo, I come[the young man], and I [the young man]will dwellin the midst of thee, saith the LORD. Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be mypeople: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent meunto thee. Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation." In the next chapter, Is this, BRANCH [Tsemech], not the same as the young man spoken of in chapter 2? Zec 3:8 HaShem says "... I will bring forth my servant, the BRANCH [TSEMECH]..." And then, we have 2 anointed ones standing before The BRANCH: Let?s save them for later! Zec 4:14 Then said he, "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. [Is not The BRANCH [TSEMECH] the human Lord of the whole earth? - notice the Zacharaiah 9:10 - under HaShem?s Lordship, of course! Plenty of prophetic verses come to mind, if you?re unsure of this.]. HASHEM SPEAKS OF THE BRANCH TO THE DAUGHTERS OF JERUSALEM Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion ; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem : behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just [a Tsadiq], and having salvation [Yasha]; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zec 9:10 And I [HaShem] will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem , and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he [The Young Man - The BRANCH?] shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. ? AND THEN, HASHEM SPEAKS DIRECTLY TO THE BRANCH Zec 9:11 As for thee also [ the young man - the BRANCH], by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. ? BACKING UP A BIT...LET?S TEST AGAIN...TO SEE IF THERE CONTINUES TO BE COHERENCY IN MY ASSERTION THAT "the young man is The Branch" SENT BY HaShem: Zec 6:9 And the word of the LORD came unto me [Zacahariah], saying, Zec 6:10 "Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah; Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;" Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, "Thus speaks the LORD of hosts, saying, ?Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and heshall grow up [branch] out of his place, and heshall build the temple of the LORD: Zec 6:13 Even heshall build the temple of the LORD; and heshall bear the glory, {Remember: Zachariah 2:8 "...After the glory hath HE [HaShem] sent me..."} and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and heshall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both....?" ? So, WHO ARE WE LOOKING FOR TO APPEAR FIRST? THE SENDER OR THE SENT ONE??? DOES THE YOUNG MAN SPEAK AGAIN? Zec 6:15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD, your God. Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [gheber 1397 - the young man?] that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered... ? IN CHAPTER 14: THERE SEEMS TO BE A PROGRESSION FROM VERSE 4 : First: THE SENT ONE [THE BRANCH] VERSE 5: Second: THE SENDER finally comes with His Holy Ones Is this not a progression? I, personally, lean toward the thought that this represents a perfect example of The Shaliach completely embodying the Sender {**see the principle spelled out below}. Is there not a progression from verse 4 to verse 5? Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives... {"his feet"....Is this not "the young man, The BRANCH, The Shepherd...The Gheber...my fellow...The Prophet like unto Moses with the words of HaShem in his mouth?} Zec 14:5 ...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Surely, it makes no sense, that HASHEM?s FEET stand on the mount of olives and then, ...the LORD my G-d shall come.... How can HE Come, when HE is already here, standing on the Mount of Olives ? Surely, it is The Branch, HIS Shaliach, who stands upon the Mt of Olives first??? The end result will be thus: Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. ? **The BRANCH is SENT/Shalach A Sent One/A SHALIACH / An APOSTLE A sent one is an agent. And this invokes the LAW OF AGENCY... In discussing the mechanism of legal agency, Jewish law sees the "principal" [the sender] working through the "emissary" [the sent one] in three possible ways: 1) The emissary's [the sent one?s] final achievement is attributed to the principal [the Sender] 2) The emissary's [the sent one?s] every action is attributed to the principal [the Sender] 3) The emissary [the sent one] completely embodies the principal [the Sender]. We can see this principle spelled out very clearly in The Torah and Prophets. Can we not? ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:27:27 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Shalom James & Marvin, ? Very interesting conversation. I wonder if this is what?this mother was thinking of when she was?making her request? Mat 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. Mat 20:22 But?Yeshua answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. So, seemingly, the center position is taken (the one like unto Moses), that is, while we can wonder about the two assistants. ? I'll probably be watching FOX rather than CNN, but, I'm sure they'll all be carrying this live - that is, if New York is still standing. Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ----- Original Message ---- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:06:39 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts Marvin, ? I think you are right on with this reading of the Prophets though I am not sure the "moshiach" is the main one awaited, but rather the Prophet like Moses, whom Zechariah calls the "Adon" of the earth, before whom the two messiahs stand. Indeed, they are his assistants. He is the one who anoints but is not himself anointed--by any human at least. As you know, we have discussed this for many years, the three figures, with the middle one representing HaShem directly, as Moses did.? ? That seems to be the clear meaning of Zechariah 2:10-13 [vs in Hebrew text are 2:14-17], and as you note, HaShem SENDS this one, who speaks here in the 1st person. This language is very strange and was pointed out by David Horowitz many times, and it is the same "style" of reference we find with Moses, e.g. Deut 29:1-5 (note carefully the pronouns, with Moses as speaker). The one who speaks "mouth to mouth" with HaShem is center stage, assisted by his two anointed ones. Both the Christian and the Jewish exclusive focus on the Davidic figure puts this out of balance. You will remember I cover this extensively in Restoring Abrahamic Faith, and the new edition will go into it even more clearly. ? Zechariah is the key text, from start to finish. I think only in Zech 8-14 do you get some sense of the "chronology" of things, in terms of how they unfold. All eyes turn to Jerusalem . I also think you are correct to see that this is not just bells and whistles and cosmic display. It will come in history, just as did the Exodus, and only gradually will various peoples understand. In other words, it will be covered by CNN, so to speak... ? Take care, ? James ? ? ? ? ? On Aug 13, 2008, at 8:12 AM, mhyde wrote: Why do the nations suddenly stream up to? Zion ??? If we look at Zechariah 2 it would seem that just as Psa. 102 ?13?Thou shalt arise,?and?have mercy upon? Zion : for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.???????So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.?16?When the LORD shall build up? Zion , he shall appear in his glory. ?This same language of "glory and defense" is found in?Isa 4:5, ?alluding to the pillar of cloud and fire which defended and enlightened? Israel?in the desert. ?Zec 8:?6?Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.?7?Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;?8?And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of? Jerusalem : and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. As per Isa. 11:11-12. ? ? It seems to me form this text in Zechariah that God?s glory will appear, the pillar of fire and the cloud will appear and this Glory that Moses got a glimpse of, the whole world with get to see. This happens at an appointed time and THEN the nations start coming up to joined themselves to the God of Israel. ? ?Also, in the text of Zechariah there seem to be two(2) speakers. One being YHVH and the other his servant, whom most would identify with Moshaich.?? As I read through this again, ?I get the sense that YHVH will reveal himself again as in the wilderness and also their will be this servant figure present also.? Vs. 9 speaks of the ?shaking of the hand? at the nations as in Isa.11:15, 19:16, this will get peoples attention. Verse 11 speaks of ?many nations shall joined to the Lord in that day?.? ? Coming from a christian background were the world and all world / future / events happen with the ?christian church? at the center, I am being to think the more correct course of events will be that Judea / Israel will be at the center and the rest of the world will be standing on the outside looking on?.? Just like when God brought the children home the first time when he brought them out of? Egypt .? Most religious people will look for the supernatural events.? But, what if Moshiach just quietly slips in to town riding on a donkey?? What if he works quietly behind the scenes until he slowly becomes center stage? ??We often read the text of the earth splitting, the heavens shaking and the ?every eye shall behold? and want to think of some super natural earth shaking event were we all fall on our face?s and turned to God.? But, from these scriptures and others it seems to indicate a process and ?not and event that happens in a milli-second. ? When God spoke to Moses Exo. 3, telling him to go get the people of? Israel?his children, Moses was not worried about Pharaoh letting them go! Moses was worried that the children ?of? Israel ?would not believe him and then willingly follow him out.? Moses was told to go to the elders of? Israel , he pleaded his case there first; then with the elders of? Israel?he went before the King of Egypt. V.29 Moses and Aaron gather together the elders of? Israel .? V.30 Moses spoke all the words and did all the signs. V31 The people (AM) believed. ? Therefore, my I suggest that the ?glory of YHVH? and Moshiach will be in? Israel?/? Judea?before the world is made aware of it? ? Shalom, Marvin ? ? ________________________________ From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]?On Behalf Of?James Tabor Sent:?Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:38 PM To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] Noahide precepts ? I agree and I expand on this in the new version of?Restoring Abrahamic Faith.? ? It seems to me the "Seven" are minimal and a good "identification" marker vis-a-vis Judaism. For one to say, "I just know in my heart" or because I am from the NW Celtic peoples, that I am of the "tribes," might wash if someone has read the research of people like Hulley, but in general it can just sound nutty. I often say, "Noahide" is not my definition of myself, but it is a good Jewish definition of someone who has my God/Torah/Israel orientation and who is not a halachically Jewish. I find it most functional and I have no objection to Judaism "defining itself." I think they had no choice given the 2000 years of Exile.? ? But even more interesting the question you touch on--what will cause the attraction, of Zechariah 2 & 8; Isaiah 2, and Jeremiah 7, and many other passages. WHY do the nations suddenly stream up to? Zion . ?I have my ideas, but wonder if anyone else wants to jump in here... ? James ? ? On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:20 AM, mhyde wrote: ? Ross and others, ? I was listening to Sunday Shul and noticed something in the text as Ross was teaching.?? As Ross was going through the text in Isa. 1, 2, and Jeremiah 7 I Noticed something.??? I have always had a question as to how God is going to bring this all about were the nations look to? Zionand the Gentiles look to the God of Israel and leave behind their belief that the Jews will have to convert to their religion.? Remember it is us who is looking to them and saying , ?teach us for we know that God is with you?.? Some commentaries say the gate mention in Jer.7:2 , ?is the gate at the outer court, that leads to the court of the women or gentiles and others say this is the Eastern gate. ? At anyrate, Notice in Jer.7:1-10. ?Almost all of the commandments are mentioned, representive of both tablets.?? What I see here is that we have to get back to a place were we are at least, at a minimum, we must keep / observe the basic Noahide code.?? Israel?as a whole, both Judea?and Ephraim as a first step back to God must at a minimum keep and observe the Noahide precepts.?? ? Any thoughts or comments? ? Shalom, marvin?? Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080827/10eb85ef/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 08:22:56 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 09:22:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer In-Reply-To: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> <48B4BBC1.4020709@gninc.ca> <48B53D5B.3040204@gninc.ca> References: <48B3E95B.2030301@gninc.ca> <48B4BBC1.4020709@gninc.ca> <48B53D5B.3040204@gninc.ca> Message-ID: Cornie, I know those words came from Jamie's heart, because Cody said the same thing to me!!!! When he was a young child, he had a spiritual dream that he and I (not his parents!!!) would someday live in Israel. He never forgot it, and now he is there. ----Guess I better get there too!!!!! From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:41 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Pat one of the last words I heard Jamie telling me personally was, he wants to go to Israel with me together. And I had not even mentioned anything about going. This came from his heart. I look forward to those two meeting one day. Thank you for sharing. I have to run along to work. Cornie Pat Robbins wrote: Have had to be away from my computer a lot lately, Cornie. I wish Jamie could talk to Cody! I think he would be very encouraged. Maybe someday they will be telling each other their stories! Will continue to pray for him. Love to you and Jamie, Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 10:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Tears brim my eyes Pat when I read this so consoling letter from you. I didn't want to worry about Jamie, but to commit him into the loving care of , Baruch Hashem, the one who has Jamie in His hand. But it is so precious to have other brothers and sisters walking along beside us, in this vale where we actually need these valleys, like thunder and lightning can be a balm, rather than something to be scared of. But it is so good to know there are others who somehow understand, bless your hearts. Pat I was starting to wonder where you stayed, or if I was not getting all my e-mails. Shalom Cornie Pat Robbins wrote: Dearest Cornie, I'm sorry for being behind on my email reading. I'm trying to catch up and have just read your notes about Jamie. HaSHem has His Hand upon this most precious and beloved neshamah who is your grandson. When I read your posts about him, I realized how similar his calling is to that of my nephew, Cody, who also, against great odds and hardships, followed the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is now in Israel, all alone, but following hard after G-d. It is amazing to me to see these young men being called out of strong Christian backgrounds. Their sacrifices are great, and yet they persevere. You are a "nes" for him - a banner flowing above his head that he can follow, and he is "nes" for you - a miracle of HaShem in your life ("nes" means both banner and miracle). While he may not be able to communicate with you, he can "see" you as a banner, flowing up ahead of him and is tracking your footsteps. His desire to follow your G-d has made your journey worth the pain. Keep going, Cornie!!!! You are doing what you were called to do, and HaSHem has blessed you with this most wonderful "nes"!!! We are all separated by many miles, oceans, and continents, and yet we walk together on this Ancient Path Home to our Father. We are brothers and sisters, and our voices, calling out to one another across this vast cyberspace help unite our One Heart with the Heart of our Biblical Fathers (Malachi 3:24). Our loved ones, for the most part, are unable to understand, but someday they will see the Glory of the One G-d, blessed be He, to Whom we have devoted our lives. May HaShem cradle Jamie in the Palm of His Hand, give him His Shalom-Shalom, and speak His Words into his heart. May he be so inundated by G-d's Love and Protection, that an overwhelming feeling of well-being envelope him wherever he goes. May HaSHem make him aware, in his inward parts, of the heartbeat of this growing throng who accompany his journey, though he's not yet consciously aware of us. I'm praying for him and for you, Cornie. My love to you and Jamie (Yaacov), Avigail/Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer Thank you Joe, (who called ) Betty, Hanoch, Steve and Helen, and all of you concerned It is comforting to read that all of you are praying for Jamie. You could think what is so different with Jamie than with so many other youth , your hearts could be breaking for , and I don't know if Jamie's situation is different. The pathetically appearing dilemma with Jamie my grandson are, he is a youth of 15 interested in a totally unpopular among his family and friends , end time dilemma, has no support from family and friend's but from a questionable old grandpa who has to be shunned because of his queer belief . I admire his tenacity to go against such odds, and yet, he has to be cut off radio, TV, Internet, or anything where he could get fed in what he believes, it appears he could turn insane but for all your prayers and concerns, and above all else a heavenly father who cares for him in spite of it all.. I am so grateful for all your prayers. Shalom Cornie Betty Givin wrote: Yes, and mine too, Cornie. Our children and our grandchildren indeed have our hearts and when they are hurting we hurt as well.. Fifteen is such a hard age and such a vulnerable one. I will be praying for Jamie, that HaShem will touch his heart and he will want to turn his life around. Love, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 5:08 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A plea for prayer My heartfelt prayers are with him, and you, Cornie. May HaShem guide and protect him, always. Hanoch It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080827/969042dd/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Aug 27 20:26:36 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:26:36 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Proclaiming Justice to the Nations' Message-ID: These are the amazing people I met who are committed to helping Israel win the propaganda war. Please try to help them in anyway you can. They made that amazing video on YouTube, "Forgotten People." Check it out - Hanoch Your PJTN Update ? August 2008 IN THIS ISSUE _Make A Difference Today!_ (mip://02e85848/default.html#LETTER.BLOCK7) _The Forgotten People DVD_ (mip://02e85848/default.html#LETTER.BLOCK9) _PJTN Has a new look...._ (mip://02e85848/default.html#LETTER.BLOCK21) _60 Seconds about Israel's 60th Birthday_ (mip://02e85848/default.html#LETTER.BLOCK13) _PJTN Receives Grant Funding_ (mip:/ /02e85848/default.html#LETTER.BLOCK18) _Laurie Cardoza-Moore to speak in L.A._ (mip://02e85848/default.html#LETTER.BLOCK23) _Change World Opinion about Israel_ (mip://02e85848/default.html#LETTER.BLOCK17) _Help Change World History_ (mip://02e85848/default.html#LETTER.BLOCK16) How did YOU celebrate Israel's 60th Anniversary? How do you relate to Israel and our destiny to support her? Share YOUR story with us! It may be featured in one of our documentaries or infomercials. SEND TO: _pjtninfo at yahoo.com_ (mailto:pjtninfo at yahoo.com) In celebration of Israel's 60th, please join with our fellow Christians to fulfill our resposnsibility: SIGN UP at www.PJTN.org with family and friends TODAY! Through your membership... PJTN can make the difference now! Through your _donation..._ (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_donations&business=trlmoore at aol.com&item_name=Newsletter%20Donation&no_shipping=0&no_ note=1&tax=0¤cy_code=USD&lc=US&bn=PP-DonationsBF&charset=UTF-8) PJTN can make the difference now! Through your partnership... PJTN can make the difference now! To send a check by mail: PJTN PO Box 682711 Franklin, TN 37068-2711 Please make all checks payable to PJTN. Thank you for your support and consideration. Please keep reading our newsletters, ...but please: MAKE A DIFFERENCE TODAY! _DONATE NOW_ (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_donations&business=trlmoore at aol.com&item_name=Newsletter%20Donation&no_shipping=0&no_note=1&tax=0& currency_code=USD&lc=US&bn=PP-DonationsBF&charset=UTF-8) AMBASSADOR MANSOUR CELEBRATES! Ambassador Reda Mansour throwing the first pitch at the Atlanta Braves Turner Stadium May 30th in Atlanta, Georgia, in celebration of Israel 60. The Forgotten People DVD _With a contribution of $50 or more...GET YOURS NOW!_ (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_donations&business=trlmoore at aol.com&item_name=Newsletter %20Donation&no_shipping=0&no_note=1&tax=0¤cy_code=USD&lc=US&bn=PP-Donati onsBF&charset=UTF-8) PJTN needs Volunteers For the 2009 International Christian Prayer Dinner for Israel at the NRB, February 9th, 2009 in Nashville, TN. If you are interested in being a part of this historical event, please contact Judy VandenBosch at judy at pjtn.org to get more information. Proclaiming Justice To The Nations (PJTN) is a non-political, non-partisan Tennessee based-corporation organized under Section 501(c)(3) of federal tax law. Donations to PJTN are tax deductible in the manner prescribed by law. Your tax-deductible donation will help PJTN provide an alternative to the misinformation in the media about Israel for the next generation. JOIN THE PJTN TEAM PJTN is seeking a part-time Administrative Assistant Please submit your resume' to: _info at pjtn.org_ (mailto:info at pjtn.org) The False Prophet We will send this book free with a donation of $35 _DONATE NOW!_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001mdMCcdbRc5GtoXqvP-bVRQwo0vy9egLTW7lV1MzFBBw_jfqfqtWrJabakLr_AiLd5Q2V5osy8PI0r5SwPAWC_WWMJP9jRz4ybyBDNkmnSLg=) PJTN has a new look and a new website! 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Similar to the humble beginnings of the birth of the United States, I was reminded about the Israelites as they were preparing to take the land God promised to them after 40 years of wandering in the desert. The Book of Numbers, Chapter 32 recounts how the children of Reuben and Gad asked Moses and Eleazar, the High Priest, if they could inhabit the land east of the Jordan, leaving the families of the other 10 tribes to cross over the Jordan to fight the battle without them. Moses' response to them was, "Shall your brethren go to war while you sit here? Now why will you discourage the heart of the children of Israel from going over into the land which the LORD has given them?" Moses' statement indicated that if they did not help fight for their inheritance, it would bring discouragement on the rest of the nation of Israel and therefore hinder their ability to inhabit the Land of promise. As Christians, we too must stand with our Jewish brethren in this battle. We cannot dwell peacefully in our land while our brethren are struggling under the threat of nuclear attack from Iran, the growing threat of another attack by Hezbollah that is looming on the northern border, and the daily barrage of missiles descending on Israelis. PJTN is fighting the battle of truth to comfort Israel PJTN is fighting the battle of truth. Israeli's must be battle weary, and as brethren in the faith, Christians must take a stand of solidarity to be a blessing of encouragement to Israel. Your support can make the difference NOW! What can you do? * You can register to become a monthly partner with PJTN...with an easy automatic credit card payment...and you can rest assured that we're helping you uphold your responsibility to help Israel be a Light Unto Nations. * You can forward this newsletter to everyone on your list, family and friends, and encourage them to stand with Israel by supporting PJTN. * Join PJTN and unite with Christians around the globe who understand their responsibility and relationship to our Jewish brethren and the land of Israel by continuing to create film and video messages that tell the truth and support our Holyland. Your monthly support of $10.00 will help PJTN multiply its pro-Israel message globally and further our mission to increase awareness and action by proclaiming truth about Israel by distributing our documentary films and videos. Today, please decide to go to our website and make a donation (or send a check) and help us PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE NATIONS. Thank you for your time and consideration, Laurie Cardoza-Moore President, PJTN PJTN Receives 2500 shares of stock from California donor Donor responds to Israel 60th Campaign in celebration of Shavuot. In response to our Israel 60th Campaign, PJTN received 2500 shares of stock to help reach its goal to take the pro-Israel message to the global Christian community. Per the donor's request, she has asked to remain anonymous. Her generous contribution was in response to much prayer and in keeping with the scriptures to offer up a "firstfruits" blessing for Shavuot. Exodus 23:15-16, You shall keep.... the Feast of Harvest, the firstfruits of your labors which you have sown in the field... In remaining faithful to steward her inheritance well, she sought a ministry where the seed she planted would multiply. She knew her first offering needed to be sown into PJTN to provide comfort to Israel. Romans 15:27; For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their (the Jews) spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things. PJTN and its Board of Directors wants to thank all of our donors for responding to our campaign with their generous support. It is because of the commitment and dedication of so many PJTN friends that help us further our mission to increase awareness and action by proclaiming truth about Israel in the media to this and the next generation. Won't you consider how you too can stand with us? PJTN is coming to a city near you.... Founder and President Laurie Cardoza-Moore was recently speaking in the Los Angeles area to donors about how PJTN is working to increase awareness and action for Israel in the media. "The response from area leaders and private donors was overwhelmingly positive. We are experiencing greater interest in PJTN because people are beginning to realize that this is a 'cutting-edge' approach to presenting the pro-Israel message to Christians worldwide." Laurie is scheduled to meet with area donors in: * Memphis, TN - August 27th-28th * Birmingham, AL - September 4th, 2008 * Montgomergy, AL - September 5th, 2008 * Los Angeles, CA - September 15th-17th, 2008 * Lancaster, PA - September 24th-27th, 2008 For more information, or if you would like to schedule a meeting in your area, please contact Kendra Shoap at 615.778.0202, or email her at kshoap at charter.net. Visit our website at: _www.pjtn.org_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001mdMCcdbRc5GtoXqvP-bVRQwo0vy9egLTW7lV1MzFBBw_jfqfqtWrJabakLr_AiLd5Q2V5osy8PI0r5SwPAWC_WWM JP9jRz4ybyBDNkmnSLg=) CHANGE THE WORLD'S OPINION OF ISRAEL and MAKE HISTORY! BY MAKING A FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTION TOWARD OUR GROWTH & EXPANSION (https://www.paypal.com/cgibin/webscr?first_name=&last_name=&undefined_quantity=1&business=trlmoore at aol.com&image_url=&return=http://www.pjtn.org&cancel_re turn=&item_name=PJTN%20Donation&amount=50.00&shipping=0.00¤cy_code=USD&i tem_number=&cmd=_xclick) or go to (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001mdMCcdbRc5EiEJZlxfcGJYXwRyBkGZ8a0ZSnE2Q6vzyMKOHt072_SKnfYdqmXRUG4-JWkYUIVB7FFOO1e-WEjQkvFwsbHm3jlpShjVZK_mA=) _www.pjtn.org_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001mdMCcdbRc5GtoXqvP-bVRQwo0vy9egLTW7lV1MzFBBw_jfqfqtWrJabakLr_AiLd5Q2V5osy8PI0r5SwPAWC_WWMJP9jRz4ybyBDNkmnSLg=) to Donate from our website "If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. " Galatians 3:29 PJTN is working to bring greater understanding to the Christian community about our important role in defending our Jewish brethren and TheLand that God calls His. HOW CAN YOU GET INVOLVED? 1.) _Become a member!_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001mdMCcdbRc5GtoXqvP-bVRQwo0vy9egLTW7lV1MzFBBw_jfqfqtWrJabakLr_AiLd5Q2V5osy8PI0r5SwPAWC_WWMJP9jRz4ybyBDNkmn SLg=) 2.) Ask family & friends to sign up and make a monthly financial commitment to PJTN. 3.) _Sign-up now_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001mdMCcdbRc5GtoXqvP-bVRQwo0vy9egLTW7lV1MzFBBw_jfqfqtWrJabakLr_AiLd5Q2V5osy8PI0r5SwPAWC_WWMJP9jRz4ybyBDNkmnSLg=) to receive our Justice in Media E-Newsletter! 4.) Contact us to host a meeting at your home, church, or local club. I heard the voice of the LORD saying: Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, "Here am I LORD, send me." Isaiah 6:8 We can't do it without your financial support! Thank you for supporting us with your contribution. _DONATE NOW_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001mdMCcdbRc5GtoXqvP-bVRQwo0vy9egLTW7lV1MzFBBw_jfqfqtWrJabakLr_AiLd5Q2V5osy8PI0r5SwPAWC_WWMJP9jRz4ybyBDNkmnSLg=) On-Line Registration Begins September 1st, 2008 PJTN's Messages, Your Membership, and How Both Together are About to Change the World PJTN is also celebrating this historical occasion. With your monthly support, we are committed to a media campaign that celebrates Israel's accomplishments. PJTN TELLS THE ISRAEL STORY We are currently planning to produce a 30-minute infomercial as well as multiple public service announcements that will air on Conservative and Christian radio stations nationwide. We know the most effective tool to communicate this message to Christians and ultimately change world opinion is through media such as films, videos, the Internet, radio broadcasts and print. PJTN would like to know what did you do to celebrate Israel's 60th Independence Day? What did your community leaders, congressional leaders and state politicians do to mark God's fulfillment to the prophet Jeremiah? WOULD YOU TELL US YOUR ISRAEL STORIES? Send us your story so we can share it with the PJTN membership, Board and possibly feature it in our documentaries and infomercials. We want to recognize you for all you do for the LORD, His people and His land of Israel. PJTN MEMBERSHIP INFORMATION In celebration of Israel's 60th Anniversary, our goal this year is to sign-up 60 new members each month. Please sign up with family and friends today. Through your membership in PJTN, you can make the difference now! We need your support and participation. Through your _donation_ (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_donations&business=trlmoore at aol.com&item_name=Newsletter%20Donation&no_shipping=0&no_not e=1&tax=0¤cy_code=USD&lc=US&bn=PP-DonationsBF&charset=UTF-8) to PJTN, you can make the difference now! We need your funds to operate and expand. Through your partnership with PJTN, you can make the difference now! Your partnership fulfills Biblical prophecy and will change the world! And if you care about Israel, you need to be a part of it! Join hands with us, and join in! MAKE A DONATION ON-LINE or become a MONTHLY PARTNER! (https://www.paypal.com/cgibin/webscr?first_name=&last_name=&undefined_quantity=1&business=trlmoo re at aol.com&image_url=&return=http://www.pjtn.org&cancel_return=&item_name=Dona tion&amount=0&shipping=0¤cy_code=USD&item_number=&cmd=_xclick) HOW YOU CAN CHANGE WORLD HISTORY BY PLAYING A ROLE IN OUR WORK Our initial objective is to raise $30,000 in contributions to cover our next three months of operational expansion. We are asking you to help us spread our message, by contributing $250, $100, $50, or $25 to PJTN by September 10th. Some of us can afford much more, and if you can donate $1,000, $5,000 or more, you'll play a key role in helping PJTN to reach more Christians with this information. We are very grateful for the support you have provided to PJTN so far. And now we're starting to gorw! We have been getting profesional marketing and fundraising support via donors and contributions, and have very big plans for the NRB convention (see above), and more. With your continuing support we are confident that we can continue to further the goals of PJTN. Please take action now - as part of our key constituency, we need your support to fund our operations and programs, with your check right now. Why not sign up for automatic monthly suport, a small tithe to supportour vital Holyland. With your monthly support, we are committed to a media campaign that celebrates Israel's accomplishments. **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080827/f0886dd8/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Aug 28 04:19:27 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:19:27 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SIGN - "TAV" Message-ID: <48B66D9F.7050702@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/fa113ddd/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 28 05:11:44 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:11:44 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Wait on HaShem Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 27 Av 5768 August 28, 2008 Shalom Wait on Hashem; be strong, and let your heart take courage; yes, wait for Hashem. Psalm 27:14 **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/a27683de/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 28 05:23:11 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:23:11 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "The Russian Bear and the Israeli Ant" Message-ID: An intriguing article.. Hanoch The Russian Bear and the Israeli Ant: By Moshe Feiglin Av, 5768 August, '08 Translated from the NRG website. About a year ago, I saw a Russian television broadcast in which Vladimir Putin, riding a noble steed, reaches the edge of a lake, deftly removes his shirt and in an impressive display of muscle, leans over and washes his face in the crystal clear water. That is when I began to worry. The leader determined to restore the great nation's lost honor and days of glory was playing the macho worship card. It reminded me of an old Italian propaganda film in which Il Duce - Musollini - is riding in his official car when he sees a farmer struggling to load bundles of wheat onto his wagon. Il Duce descends from his car and - just like Putin - takes off his shirt and with an impressive display of macho and muscle, quickly loads the wheat onto the wagon of the grateful farmer. Both Hitler and Stalin also played the macho worship card. Thus, the Russian invasion into Georgia did not surprise me at all. Whoever thinks that the latest Russian offensive is in retaliation against Georgian provocation does not - in my opinion - understand Putin. When Hitler annexed the Sudetenland, some pundits thought that he would be content. And in truth, millions of Germans did live in the "separatist regions" of Czechoslovakia and the Western world was eager to 'understand' the Germans. After all, what did everybody want? A second World War? So the Sudetes were sacrificed to appease Hitler, and in Churchill's words, "You chose disgrace instead of war. You got disgrace and war as well." It would have been easy then to stop Hitler. The Czech army alone was larger than the German army and its Skoda factories produced top notch weapons. But the post World War I world craved quiet. It chose to give Hitler what he wanted in the hopes that he would just leave well enough alone. Hitler got what he wanted and the world got a brief respite. The rest is history. Putin will not suffice himself with Georgia. The Georgian test case has provided him with all the incentive that he needs. We do not yet know exactly where or when the next eruption will occur. But if Obama wins the US elections and the process of disintegration there continues, the new Russian bully will feel confident enough to initiate more wars. Does Russia present a direct threat to Israel? The Syrians have explicitly invited the Russians to man both their ground and naval bases. It is possible that Russia will begin to expand in our direction. That is a most undesirable eventuality - but if it happens, it will not be the first time. Israeli pilots have already waged air skirmishes against Soviet pilots who defended Egyptian skies during the War of Attrition. The Israeli pilots even downed a number of Russian piloted planes. Israel is not Georgia and the Russians know that. But Israel today is not the Israel of the War of Attrition. Today, Israel displays weakness, enticing every neighborhood and international bully to come in for a piece of the action. The restoration of Israel's deterrence factor is not a matter of increasing the security budget, as the security lobbyists would have us believe. Just two years ago, Israel's army collapsed in the face of an enemy the size of a mere division - in a war that Israel itself initiated. The problem was not budget. The problem was a loss of our sense of justice and common goals that create our cohesiveness and national might. Our lack of deterrence is not due to a lack of tanks or fighter jets. Our lack of deterrence is due to the fact that our enemies think that our society is disintegrating and that the State of Israel is "weaker than spider webs," in the descriptive words of Nasrallah. I would not invest one more shekel in security. The huge sums that the security lobbyists are demanding should be funneled to Israel's social needs. A just society understands what it is doing in its land and can produce the power of deterrence that Israel used to have - when it believed that it was right. **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/ebeb4bf8/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 28 05:25:59 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:25:59 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] SIGN - "TAV" Message-ID: Shalom Joe, Thanks for sharing this with us. Unfortunately, I think your analysis is correct, and this hurricane won't be all of it. This is just the beginning... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/2e5d499c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Aug 28 05:45:20 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:45:20 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "The Russian Bear and the Israeli Ant"] Message-ID: <48B681C0.5030807@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/6a1bc569/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] "The Russian Bear and the Israeli Ant" Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:23:11 EDT Size: 15021 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/6a1bc569/attachment.eml From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 05:58:15 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:58:15 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] SIGN - "TAV" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, thank you, Joe. I can't help but feel that disaster is coming because of the hardheartedness of Ephraim in not turning to the One G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We have dearly, arrogantly loved our idolatry, and our unwillingness to give it up is drawing judgment down upon us. It scares me that the "cup of sin" has been filled up, and we await punishment. May the great Mercy of HaSHem be extended toward us still. May He give us eyes to see and ears to hear. May His Remnant take hold of the Tzit-Tzit of him that is a Jew as we were instructed, and escape the wrath that is to come. Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 6:25 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] SIGN - "TAV" Shalom Joe, Thanks for sharing this with us. Unfortunately, I think your analysis is correct, and this hurricane won't be all of it. This is just the beginning... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/f1d1b03f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 28 08:16:52 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 09:16:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] "The Russian Bear and the Israeli Ant" In-Reply-To: <48B681C0.5030807@westnet.com.au> References: <48B681C0.5030807@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <8CAD72778981EBE-17D4-837@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com> Shalom Joe HaYakar, ???? Always great to hear from you....and yes, it IS amazing how quickly we forget, and continually seem to repeat history, with all of its mistakes; absolutely NO transfer of learning.? On a MUCH lighter side though, the image of you singing, "Macho, Macho Man.." has caused me to break into a fit of laughter!!!? :-) ??? As I continue to row this slave galley (think "Ben Hur") throughout the day, it will bring a smile to my face - thanks pal! ??? And I think the idea of Machiach NOW is a great one - I'm not a patient guy, so may HaShem make it happen already!! ??? B'Ahava, ????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 6:45 am Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "The Russian Bear and the Israeli Ant"] Shalom Hanoch, Todah for this article by Moshe Feiglin. It is truely amazing how we forget the contours of past history and in doing so are destined to repeat it. Macho, Macho Man..... I want to be a Macho Man..... Putin the Puny. Mussolini the Mamzer. Bring on Mashiach Man. Mamash. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. Attached Message From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] "The Russian Bear and the Israeli Ant" Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:23:11 EDT An intriguing article.. ????????????Hanoch ? The Russian Bear and the Israeli Ant: By Moshe Feiglin Av, 5768 August, '08 Translated from the NRG website. About a year ago, I saw a Russian television broadcast in which Vladimir Putin, riding a noble steed, reaches the edge of a lake, deftly removes his shirt and in an impressive display of muscle, leans over and washes his face in the crystal clear water. That is when I began to worry. The leader determined to restore the great nation's lost honor and days of glory was playing the macho worship card. It reminded me of an old Italian propaganda film in which Il Duce - Musollini - is riding in his official car when he sees a farmer struggling to load bundles of wheat onto his wagon. Il Duce descends from his car and - just like Putin - takes off his shirt and with an impressive display of macho and muscle, quickly loads the wheat onto the wagon of the grateful farmer. Both Hitler and Stalin also played the macho worship card. Thus, the Russian invasion into Georgia did not surprise me at all. Whoever thinks that the latest Russian offensive is in retaliation against Georgian provocation does not - in my opinion - understand Putin. When Hitler annexed the Sudetenland, some pundits thought that he would be content. And in truth, millions of Germans did live in the "separatist regions" of Czechoslovakia and the Western world was eager to 'understand' the Germans. After all, what did everybody want? A second World War? So the Sudetes were sacrificed to appease Hitler, and in Churchill's words, "You chose disgrace instead of war. You got disgrace and war as well." It would have been easy then to stop Hitler. The Czech army alone was larger than the German army and its Skoda factories produced top notch weapons. But the post World War I world craved quiet. It chose to give Hitler what he wanted in the hopes that he would just leave well enough alone. Hitler got what he wanted and the world got a brief respite. The rest is history. Putin will not suffice himself with Georgia. The Georgian test case has provided him with all the incentive that he needs. We do not yet know exactly where or when the next eruption will occur. But if Obama wins the US elections and the process of disintegration there continues, the new Russian bully will feel confident enough to initiate more wars. Does Russia present a direct threat to Israel? The Syrians have explicitly invited the Russians to man both their ground and naval bases. It is possible that Russia will begin to expand in our direction. That is a most undesirable eventuality - but if it happens, it will not be the first time. Israeli pilots have already waged air skirmishes against Soviet pilots who defended Egyptian skies during the War of Attrition. The Israeli pilots even downed a number of Russian piloted planes. Israel is not Georgia and the Russians know that. But Israel today is not the Israel of the War of Attrition. Today, Israel displays weakness, enticing every neighborhood and international bully to come in for a piece of the action. The restoration of Israel's deterrence factor is not a matter of increasing the security budget, as the security lobbyists would have us believe. Just two years ago, Israel's army collapsed in the face of an enemy the size of a mere division - in a war that Israel itself initiated. The problem was not budget. The problem was a loss of our sense of justice and common goals that create our cohesiveness and national might. Our lack of deterrence is not due to a lack of tanks or fighter jets. Our lack of deterrence is due to the fact that our enemies think that our society is disintegrating and that the State of Israel is "weaker than spider webs," in the descriptive words of Nasrallah. I would not invest one more shekel in security. The huge sums that the security lobbyists are demanding should be funneled to Israel's social needs. A just society understands what it is doing in its land and can produce the power of deterrence that Israel used to have - when it believed that it was right. ? It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.10/1638 - Release Date: 8/27/2008 7:06 PM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/954179d4/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 28 08:30:13 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 09:30:13 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: 10% Off Summer Sale from Israel Military In-Reply-To: <5b44b35b90-youngbarzel=aol.com@mail.vresp.com> References: <5b44b35b90-youngbarzel=aol.com@mail.vresp.com> Message-ID: <8CAD72955E7FCE8-17D4-93C@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com> For those of you who need to buy a little gift for someone - nephew, grandson, etc.? The owner of this store, Andy, is a Canadian-Israeli, and is a pal of mine from way back 'in the day.' ???????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Israel Military Surplus Store To: youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 8:59 am Subject: 10% Off Summer Sale from Israel Military Click to view this message in a browser 10% Off all products listed below! Sale ends September 5, so buy now while stocks still last! Am Yisrael Chai T Normally: $17.00 Sale!?$15.25 Tzahal IDF T-shirt Normally: $17.00 Sale!?$15.25 Golani T-shirt Normally: $17.00 Sale!?$15.25 Uzi Does It T-shirt Normally: $17.00 Sale!?$15.25 IDF Krav Maga Watch Normally: $150.00 Sale!?$135.00 IDF Golani Watch Normally: $150.00 Sale!?$135.00 Krav Maga T-shirt Normally: $17.00 Sale!?$15.25 Krav Maga Manual Normally: $35.00 Sale!?$31.50 Operation Thunderbolt DVD Normally: $44.00 Sale!?$40.00 "Raful" Bush Hat Normally: $14.00 Sale!?$12.50 Tzahal IDF Camo Bucket Hat Normally: $14.00 Sale!?$12.50 Tzahal IDF Camouflage Cap Normally: $14.00 Sale!?$12.50 A Soldier At The Western Wall Normally: $32.00 Sale!?$28.50 Paratroopers At The Kotel Normally: $32.00 Sale!?$29.00 A Private Moment Normally: $32.00 Sale!?$29.00 Water Bag - "Big Drop" 3L Normally: $110.00 Sale!?$99.00 Land of Israel Necklace Normally: $32.00 Sale!?$29.00 Tzahal Pencil Case Normally: $9.00 Sale!?$8.00 Givati Zippo Lighter Normally: $62.00 Sale!?$55.80 Nachal Zippo Lighter Normally: $62.00 Sale!?$55.80 Israel Army Surplus Store - your one-stop online store for the finest and widest selection of IDF military surplus, uniforms, equipment, collectibles and memorabilia. We are Licensed Suppliers of the IDF This email has been sent to youngbarzel at aol.com from Israel Military Products Tel. U.S.: 1-718-701-3955 | Toll-free: 1-888-293-1421 Forward this email to a friend! If you no longer wish to receive these emails, please reply to this message with "Unsubscribe" in the subject line or simply click on the following link: Unsubscribe Israel Military P.O.Box 31006 Tel Aviv, Tel Aviv-Yafo 61310 IL Read the VerticalResponse marketing policy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/af0b877c/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 28 08:42:26 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 09:42:26 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Written by Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute Message-ID: <8CAD72B0AB6D529-17D4-A18@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com> "See, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse." (Deuteronomy 11:26) Av 25, 5768/August 26, 2008 Look, behold, see! These words relentlessly crop up all throughout the book of Deuteronomy, and especially so throughout this week's reading of Re'eh - See! This eye-opening imperative which begins the reading of Re'eh is followed by: "the blessing: that you hearken to the commandments of HaShem your G-d, that I command you today; and the curse: if you do not hearken to the commandments of HaShem your G-d, but turn aside from the path which I command you today, to go after other gods, that you did not know." (Deuteronomy 11:27-28) The presentation of both a blessing and a curse implies choice on the part of the children of Israel, and the imperative "See!" establishes a direct connection between vision and the ability to make such choice. In order to choose we need first to distinguish, and in order to distinguish between good and bad, right and wrong, exile and redemption, embracing G-d's command or shying away from His word, we must necessarily see clearly and behold the reality that lays before us. Free will and the ability to make choices, we know, is what separates man from the rest of G-d's creation, and, indeed, what separates us from G-d Himself. For what choice could possibly lay before the Blessed All Knowing One, Whose will infuses all existence? And we, who are created in His image, and commanded to be holy for He is holy, how are we to know what choices to make? How are we to acquire the gift of choosing correctly from the All Knowing G-d? Yet we are told that G-d has made choices: He chose the children of Israel as His people, He chose the land of Israel for His people, and in the reading of Re'eh, we are told "then it shall come to pass that the place which HaShem your G-d shall choose to cause His name to dwell there, there you will bring all that I command you: your burnt-offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which you vow unto HaShem." (ibid 12:11) This third choice refers, of course to G-d's chosen house - the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. So G-d has, in fact, made three distinct choices: His people, His land, and the place of the dwelling of His presence on this earth. All three of these Divine choices share a common element: the actualization, the fulfillment, of all three are contingent upon our making the very same choices. We must choose to accept upon ourselves the role of peoplehood that G-d has chosen for us. We must choose to accept the imperative of living in the land of Israel that G-d has chosen for us. And we must choose to honor with our presence the very spot on earth that G-d has chosen as the place in which His name will dwell. To choose to accept upon ourselves any of these three G-dly choices, we must necessarily choose to honor and to embrace and to fulfill all three. To choose but one or two is to choose none at all, for the fulfillment of each one is contingent upon the fulfillment of the other two. So, in fact, G-d is teaching us, and showing us, and guiding us to make the right choices to assume our destiny and to enable the fulfillment of His will on earth. Bringing the choices to fruition requires absolute dedication to G-d and devotion to the task, but making the choices should be easy. After all, these are the choices that G-d Himself has made: His people, His land, and His place on earth from which to reach out to all humanity. We need but to open our eyes and see fully all of G-d's goodness that is ours to inherit the moment we choose to make His will our choice: "See... the blessing, if you shall hearken unto the commandments of HaShem your G-d..." (ibid 11:27) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/ee142c71/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 28 09:09:33 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:09:33 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, Judah is waking up, too... Message-ID: <8CAD72ED46DF796-7D4-BD8@WEBMAIL-MB09.sysops.aol.com> ?Delegation of 16 Secret Jews Rejuvenates Jewish Roots in Israel by Hana Levi Julian A delegation of 16 Bnai Anousim, or Jews?who practice their religion in secrecy, arrived from Europe this week for a visit from Spain, Portugal, Italy and France, arranged under the auspices of the "Shavei Israel" organization. Bnai Anousim are descended from Jews who were forced to convert to Catholicism during the Inquisition more than 500 years ago, and who are now seeking to renew their ties with the Jewish people and the State of Israel. Delegation of 16 Bnai Anousim to Israel, August 2008 Courtesy of Shavei Israel The delegation, which has spent the week visiting places like Jerusalem, Rachel's Tomb, Tzefat, Tiberias, Haifa, Kibbutz Lavi and other spots, also has been taking in special classes on Jewish history, culture and religion in their native Spanish and Portuguese. The delegates?are also learning some Hebrew along the way. Shavei Israel Chairman Michael Freund says that large numbers of Bnai Anousim around the world have started to openly embrace their Jewish heritage in recent years, a move he has been working hard to encourage.? "This visit to Israel by a delegation of Bnai Anousim is part of the process of forging a renewed relationship with the Jewish people and the State of Israel. I believe that we have an historic and moral obligation to reach out to the Bnai Anousim and to assist them as much as we can," Freund said. Shavei Israel is active in nine different countries, including India, Spain, Portugal, Poland, Russia, China and South America, working with Bnai Anousim, sometimes referred to as "Marranos" by historians, in various locations. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/029f19c9/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 28 13:04:56 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:04:56 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Written by Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute In-Reply-To: <8CAD72B0AB6D529-17D4-A18@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <082820081804.13291.48B6E8C80009D26B000033EB22230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Amein!!! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- "See, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse." (Deuteronomy 11:26) Av 25, 5768/August 26, 2008 Look, behold, see! These words relentlessly crop up all throughout the book of Deuteronomy, and especially so throughout this week's reading of Re'eh - See! This eye-opening imperative which begins the reading of Re'eh is followed by: "the blessing: that you hearken to the commandments of HaShem your G-d, that I command you today; and the curse: if you do not hearken to the commandments of HaShem your G-d, but turn aside from the path which I command you today, to go after other gods, that you did not know." (Deuteronomy 11:27-28) The presentation of both a blessing and a curse implies choice on the part of the children of Israel, and the imperative "See!" establishes a direct connection between vision and the ability to make such choice. In order to choose we need first to distinguish, and in order to distinguish between good and bad, right and wrong, exile and redemption, embracing G-d's command or shying away from His word, we must necessarily see clearly and behold the reality that lays before us. Free will and the ability to make choices, we know, is what separates man from the rest of G-d's creation, and, indeed, what separates us from G-d Himself. For what choice could possibly lay before the Blessed All Knowing One, Whose will infuses all existence? And we, who are created in His image, and commanded to be holy for He is holy, how are we to know what choices to make? How are we to acquire the gift of choosing correctly from the All Knowing G-d? Yet we are told that G-d has made choices: He chose the children of Israel as His people, He chose the land of Israel for His people, and in the reading of Re'eh, we are told "then it shall come to pass that the place which HaShem your G-d shall choose to cause His name to dwell there, there you will bring all that I command you: your burnt-offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which you vow unto HaShem." (ibid 12:11) This third choice refers, of course to G-d's chosen house - the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. So G-d has, in fact, made three distinct choices: His people, His land, and the place of the dwelling of His presence on this earth. All three of these Divine choices share a common element: the actualization, the fulfillment, of all three are contingent upon our making the very same choices. We must choose to accept upon ourselves the role of peoplehood that G-d has chosen for us. We must choose to accept the imperative of living in the land of Israel that G-d has chosen for us. And we must choose to honor with our presence the very spot on earth that G-d has chosen as the place in which His name will dwell. To choose to accept upon ourselves any of these three G-dly choices, we must necessarily choose to honor and to embrace and to fulfill all three. To choose but one or two is to choose none at all, for the fulfillment of each one is contingent upon the fulfillment of the other two. So, in fact, G-d is teaching us, and showing us, and guiding us to make the right choices to assume our destiny and to enable the fulfillment of His will on earth. Bringing the choices to fruition requires absolute dedication to G-d and devotion to the task, but making the choices should be easy. After all, these are the choices that G-d Himself has made: His people, His land, and His place on earth from which to reach out to all humanity. We need but to open our eyes and see fully all of G-d's goodness that is ours to inherit the moment we choose to make His will our choice: "See... the blessing, if you shall hearken unto the commandments of HaShem your G-d..." (ibid 11:27) Check out AOL Video to see what's making news today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/0dbdba3a/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 28 13:23:31 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:23:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Written by Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute In-Reply-To: <082820081804.13291.48B6E8C80009D26B000033EB22230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <8CAD7524F27B817-F04-78E@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com> Good to "see" you John.? I've missed ya!? :-) ????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Written by Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute Amein!!! ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- "See, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse." (Deuteronomy 11:26) Av 25, 5768/August 26, 2008 Look, behold, see! These words relentlessly crop up all throughout the book of Deuteronomy, and especially so throughout this week's reading of Re'eh - See! This eye-opening imperative which begins the reading of Re'eh is followed by: "the blessing: that you hearken to the commandments of HaShem your G-d, that I command you today; and the curse: if you do not hearken to the commandments of HaShem your G-d, but turn aside from the path which I command you today, to go after other gods, that you did not know." (Deuteronomy 11:27-28) The presentation of both a blessing and a curse implies choice on the part of the children of Israel, and the imperative "See!" establishes a direct connection between vision and the ability to make such choice. In order to choose we need first to distinguish, and in order to distinguish between good and bad, right and wrong, exile and redemption, embracing G-d's command or shying away from His word, we must necessarily see clearly and behold the reality that lays before us. Free will and the ability to make choices, we know, is what separates man from the rest of G-d's creation, and, indeed, what separates us from G-d Himself. For what choice could possibly lay before the Blessed All Knowing One, Whose will infuses all existence? And we, who are created in His image, and commanded to be holy for He is holy, how are we to know what choices to make? How are we to acquire the gift of choosing correctly from the All Knowing G-d? Yet we are told that G-d has made choices: He chose the children of Israel as His people, He chose the land of Israel for His people, and in the reading of Re'eh, we are told "then it shall come to pass that the place which HaShem your G-d shall choose to cause His name to dwell there, there you will bring all that I command you: your burnt-offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which you vow unto HaShem." (ibid 12:11) This third choice refers, of course to G-d's chosen house - the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. So G-d has, in fact, made three distinct choices: His people, His land, and the place of the dwelling of His presence on this earth. All three of these Divine choices share a common element: the actualization, the fulfillment, of all three are contingent upon our making the very same choices. We must choose to accept upon ourselves the role of peoplehood that G-d has chosen for us. We must choose to accept the imperative of living in the land of Israel that G-d has chosen for us. And we must choose to honor with our presence the very spot on earth that G-d has chosen as the place in which His name will dwell. To choose to accept upon ourselves any of these three G-dly choices, we must necessarily choose to honor and to embrace and to fulfill all three. To choose but one or two is to choose none at all, for the fulfillment of each one is contingent upon the fulfillment of the other two. So, in fact, G-d is teaching us, and showing us, and guiding us to make the right choices to assume our destiny and to enable the fulfillment of His will on earth. Bringing the choices to fruition requires absolute dedication to G-d and devotion to the task, but making the choices should be easy. After all, these are the choices that G-d Himself has made: His people, His land, and His place on earth from which to reach out to all humanity. We need but to open our eyes and see fully all of G-d's goodness that is ours to inherit the moment we choose to make His will our choice: "See... the blessing, if you shall hearken unto the commandments of HaShem your G-d..." (ibid 11:27) Check out AOL Video to see what's making news today! _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/fc8ceae6/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Aug 28 16:09:24 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:09:24 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Yes, Judah is waking up, too...] Message-ID: <48B71404.9070802@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/d1120582/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, Judah is waking up, too... Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:09:33 -0400 Size: 9566 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/d1120582/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Aug 28 16:37:28 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:37:28 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] SIGN - "TAV"] Message-ID: <48B71A98.5050606@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/9d444ad4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Dialogue] SIGN - "TAV" Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:19:27 +1000 Size: 7541 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/9d444ad4/attachment.eml From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 28 20:07:33 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:07:33 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Written by Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute In-Reply-To: <8CAD7524F27B817-F04-78E@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com> References: <082820081804.13291.48B6E8C80009D26B000033EB22230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <8CAD7524F27B817-F04-78E@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <082920080107.14976.48B74BD50004E58E00003A8022230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Hanoch, thanks man. I've been here, ain't missed nuttin"! I've been really tied up with the study groups and other email discussions for the last few weeks. Not to mention getting ready for Sukkote, the trip to Israel and a short trip to NY to see my folks next week. Been working 40 hours a week and getting the house fixed and cleaned up. I'm glad your talks went well and I'm still looking forward to hearing more about them. I'm almost done with your tapes. I should be sending the CD's next week. Shalom bro'. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Good to "see" you John. I've missed ya! :-) Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Written by Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute Amein!!! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- "See, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse." (Deuteronomy 11:26) Av 25, 5768/August 26, 2008 Look, behold, see! These words relentlessly crop up all throughout the book of Deuteronomy, and especially so throughout this week's reading of Re'eh - See! This eye-opening imperative which begins the reading of Re'eh is followed by: "the blessing: that you hearken to the commandments of HaShem your G-d, that I command you today; and the curse: if you do not hearken to the commandments of HaShem your G-d, but turn aside from the path which I command you today, to go after other gods, that you did not know." (Deuteronomy 11:27-28) The presentation of both a blessing and a curse implies choice on the part of the children of Israel, and the imperative "See!" establishes a direct connection between vision and the ability to make such choice. In order to choose we need first to distinguish, and in order to distinguish between good and bad, right and wrong, exile and redemption, embracing G-d's command or shying away from His word, we must necessarily see clearly and behold the reality that lays before us. Free will and the ability to make choices, we know, is what separates man from the rest of G-d's creation, and, indeed, what separates us from G-d Himself. For what choice could possibly lay before the Blessed All Knowing One, Whose will infuses all existence? And we, who are created in His image, and commanded to be holy for He is holy, how are we to know what choices to make? How are we to acquire the gift of choosing correctly from the All Knowing G-d? Yet we are told that G-d has made choices: He chose the children of Israel as His people, He chose the land of Israel for His people, and in the reading of Re'eh, we are told "then it shall come to pass that the place which HaShem your G-d shall choose to cause His name to dwell there, there you will bring all that I command you: your burnt-offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which you vow unto HaShem." (ibid 12:11) This third choice refers, of course to G-d's chosen house - the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. So G-d has, in fact, made three distinct choices: His people, His land, and the place of the dwelling of His presence on this earth. All three of these Divine choices share a common element: the actualization, the fulfillment, of all three are contingent upon our making the very same choices. We must choose to accept upon ourselves the role of peoplehood that G-d has chosen for us. We must choose to accept the imperative of living in the land of Israel that G-d has chosen for us. And we must choose to honor with our presence the very spot on earth that G-d has chosen as the place in which His name will dwell. To choose to accept upon ourselves any of these three G-dly choices, we must necessarily choose to honor and to embrace and to fulfill all three. To choose but one or two is to choose none at all, for the fulfillment of each one is contingent upon the fulfillment of the other two. So, in fact, G-d is teaching us, and showing us, and guiding us to make the right choices to assume our destiny and to enable the fulfillment of His will on earth. Bringing the choices to fruition requires absolute dedication to G-d and devotion to the task, but making the choices should be easy. After all, these are the choices that G-d Himself has made: His people, His land, and His place on earth from which to reach out to all humanity. We need but to open our eyes and see fully all of G-d's goodness that is ours to inherit the moment we choose to make His will our choice: "See... the blessing, if you shall hearken unto the commandments of HaShem your G-d..." (ibid 11:27) Check out AOL Video to see what's making news today! _______________________________________________ Check out AOL Video to see what's making news today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/ecd2427e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 28 20:23:34 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:23:34 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Re'eh's Haftara Message-ID: (http://www.ou.org/torah/frankel/haftarot/intro.htm) Haftarah of Parshat Re'eh - 5760 "Afflicted and Storm-Tossed One, and Not Comforted" (Yeshayahu 54:11) The Haftarah of Re'eh is the third of the "Haftarot of Consolation," in the series of seven such Haftarot. Both the _Ashkenazic_ (http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/a.htm#ashkenaz) and _Sefardic_ (http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/s.htm#sefard) communities take this Haftarah from the Book of Yeshayahu, beginning with "Perek"/Chapter 54, Verse 11, through (and including) Chapter 55, Verse 5. Introduction In the conversation that Avudraham constructs from these Haftarot, among HaShem, His Prophets and the People of Israel, this is the one in which the People of Israel complains that it is not comforted, because it is receiving the consolation indirectly, from the Prophets, rather than from HaShem. Next week, the Master of the Universe gets into the act, when He says, "I, even I (using the unusual form 'Anochi) am the One Who comforts you" (Yeshayahu 51:12). But in truth, HaShem already has declared Himself to be the "Menachem," the Comforter, in this Haftarah, where He says in the first "Passuk" (54:11), "Behold, I ('Anochi') will set your stones in fair colors," and again in "Passuk" (54:16), "Behold, it is I ("Anochi") Who created the blacksmith, Who blows fire on the coals, And brings forth a weapon for his work, And I ("Anochi") created the destroyer to undo him." The Haftarah - Translation and Commentary Yeshayahu 54:11 "O afflicted and storm-tossed one, And not comforted, Behold, I will set your stones in fair colors, And lay your foundations with sapphires." All the commentators relate this promise of comfort to Yerushalayim. Targum Yonatan says, "?the walls about which the nations of the world said that you would never be comforted, HaShem says, "I will lay its foundation with diamonds." Yeshayahu 54:12 "And I will make your pinnacles of rubies, And your gates of iridescent diamonds; And all your borders of precious stone." I will return to the City of Jerusalem, once a beautiful "wonder of the world," its aspect of physical beauty. But that's not all. Yeshayahu 54:13 "And all your children shall be taught by HaShem, And great will be the peace of your children." The situation will be the opposite of that described by Yirmiyahu in the Haftarah of Parshat Masei (Yirmiyahu 2:8), the Second of the "Haftarot of Punishment," "The Priests did not ask, 'Where is HaShem?' And the "scholars" of Torah did not know me?" RADAK points out that this idea is like that stated by Yirmiyahu, "No longer will one person have to teach another, because everybody will know Me, from children to adults." And this "Passuk" is also the source of the following Talmudic statement (_Masechet_ (http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/m.htm#masechet) Berachot 64a), "Rabbi Elazar said in the name of Rabbi Chanina, 'Torah scholars increase peace in the world,' as it is said, 'And all your children will be taught by HaShem, and great will be the peace of your children;' do not read 'your children' (banayich), but 'your builders' (bonayich)." Yeshayahu 54:14 "In righteousness shall you be established - Stay far away from oppression, Then you will have no reason to fear, Or to feel terror, For they will not approach you." You will once again be the City described in Yeshayahu 1:21 as "full of Justice, in which Righteousness would lodge?" Yeshayahu 54:15-17 "Behold, they may gather together, But not be sent by Me, Whoever conspires against you will fall." "Behold, I have created the blacksmith, Who blows fire on the coals, Who brings forth a weapon for his work, But I have created the destroyer to undo him." "No weapon made to attack you will succeed, And every tongue that speaks against you shall fail; This is the heritage of the servants of the L-rd And their just reward from Me, Says HaShem." HaShem says, "I am the One Who brought against you enemies whose aim was to destroy you, such as Sancheriv and Nevuchadnezzar, because I used them to punish you when you rebelled against Me. But now, your enemies have no authorization from Me. They are Gog and Magog, who will fight against you immediately prior to the Coming of the Mashiach, and be defeated by you. And when they attack you in the Halls of "Diplomacy" (such as the UN, Oslo or Wye (Why indeed?)), with false speech, where you will find "Long has my soul dwelt with those who hate peace; I am for peace - but when I speak, they are plotting for war" ("Tehillim"/Psalms 120:7), I will help you defeat them there as well." The following chapter in Yeshayahu is dedicated to two great themes: Torah and _Teshuvah_ (http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/tw.htm#teshuvah) , Repentance. The first five P'sukim, that are part of our Haftarah, deal with Torah, the precious gift from HaShem to us and, through us, to humanity at large. The rest of the Perek deals with Teshuvah and, appropriately, is read as the Haftarah on a "Taanit Tzibbur," a Public Fast Day, the purpose of which is the arousal of feelings of Repentance. Yeshayahu 55:1 "Ho, everyone who is thirsty, come for water; And he that has no money, Come, buy and eat, Come buy wine and milk Without money and without price." "Mayim," the "Drink of Life," means here and in many other locations, the Torah. Here, Yeshayahu points to our priceless possession, the Torah. The Torah, for our People, is as vital as is water. We are destined to be Teachers of Torah to the world, who ultimately will seek it and value it as they do food and drink. Yeshayahu 55:2 "Why do you spend your money on that which is not bread? And you expend effort to purchase That which does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me and eat that which is good, And let your soul delight in richness!" RADAK understands this Passuk as strongly advocating the study of Torah, which is called "good" in the verse, "for I have given you a good teaching; do not forsake My Torah!" ("Mishlei"/Proverbs 4:2) And further, that the part of the Passuk that speaks of delighting the soul also speaks of the Torah, and is referring to the World-to-Come, for just as something that is fat and rich delights the body, so is the Torah a delight for the soul. Yeshayahu 55:3 "Incline your ear, and come to Me, Hear, and your soul shall live, And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, Like the everlasting kindnesses I have shown to David." RADAK understands this Passuk as referring to the time of the Mashiach, when the everlasting kindness that HaShem showed to David will be revealed in the person of the Mashiach, who will be a descendant of the House of David. Metzudat David also understands the Passuk to mean "Obey Me, and you will merit to be brought back to life at the time of the Mashiach." Yeshayahu 55:4 "Behold I have given him as a witness to the nations, A prince and a commander for the nations." RADAK again relates this Passuk to the Mashiach, whose greatness will compel the nations of the world to accept him as their commander. Yeshayahu 55:5 "Behold you shall call a nation that you did not know, And a nation who did not know of you Will now run to you; Because HaShem your G-d, The Holy One of Israel, Has glorified you." Metzudat David explains that just as I have fulfilled My kindness with David, will I fulfill My Promise of Kindness to you. And this will be manifested in that nations from the ends of the earth will come and do your bidding, because they sense in your behavior the special quality of holiness, implanted in you by the Presence in your midst of the Holy One of Israel. Rabbi Pinchas Frankel Rabbi Frankel is an Educational Coordinator at the OU **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/82ea94b8/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 28 20:27:04 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:27:04 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Written by Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute Message-ID: Hey John - If you have a few minutes next week when you're in tiny NYC, can I take you out for lunch? I know your schedule must be crazy, but let me know if you can. And don't worry - we'll go someplace Kosher.... :-) Take care bro! Hanoch **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/59d439b4/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 28 21:27:57 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 02:27:57 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Written by Rav Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <082920080227.1669.48B75EAD0004532E0000068522230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> That would be great man! I'll holler at ya later next week and see what we can set up. Kosher Pizza! ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey John - If you have a few minutes next week when you're in tiny NYC, can I take you out for lunch? I know your schedule must be crazy, but let me know if you can. And don't worry - we'll go someplace Kosher.... :-) Take care bro! Hanoch It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/aca31076/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Aug 28 21:42:05 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:42:05 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] For a life of blessing Message-ID: SPARKS by Rabbi David Aaron, Founder and Dean of Isralight (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001L2QgD4XbvM3FUqw4JDzZ5JGQzZ8U62I-PY7ZabdiofM3L3H-iON-DuTt-IUjGqxemYq4wtc iNXY3TsHhV9qnaoxcMEqgk1IxUvzdPGvvVCO3irAcnaeKyw==) A Short-Cut to a Life of Blessings You get what you give (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001L2QgD4XbvM3FalkSHeC77o0Pp1cwTlVqn2gNYzZVH8VjIKXs_Zxt4Cjk8l_I_-UXyqIHVBNMY-Dq8EPaBw7l03RiMOzo0Q7dUqW7-IxH kDzxYoFUmzMAwdJ26TgEMKgEBnFIx9YIUcjTwMlaLeMtmztZgiVrMUSJ) "Thou shalt not harden thy heart, nor shut thy hand from your needy brother; surely open thy hand to him." - Deut. 15:7-8 Is there a short-cut to the spiritual wealth of life? One of the most powerful and immediate ways to connect the circuit of life, and let the blessings flow is Tzedaka, that is charity. The Talmud teaches: "Tzedaka saves from death." When we need an incredible influx of life force - because we are facing impending physical death or impending spiritual death, the act of giving to charity can be one of the most powerful antidotes. As proof for the statement, the Talmud tells the incredible story of the daughter of the famous Rabbi Akiva, who lived some 2,000 years ago. A star-gazer told Rabbi Akiva that his daughter would die on the day of her wedding. Rabbi Akiva replied that just because it is written in the stars does not mean it has to happen, because we can make choices which overturn our destinies. As it turned out however, on the day of her wedding, the young bride was getting ready when, unbeknown to her, a poisonous snake slithered into the room and crawled up the back of her dress. Meanwhile, unaware she continued to put on her wedding bonnet. In those days, brides wore elaborate headdresses affixed by large hat pins. The snake was ready to bite her just as she inserted one pin and pierced an eye of the snake. Then she put in the other pin and it pierced the other eye of the snake and killed it. Still unaware of what had happened, she went out to greet her father, who was shocked to see a dead snake dangling from her hair. Realizing the narrowness of her escape, he asked, "What did you do that you succeeded in saving yourself from death?" She thought for a moment and then remembered that earlier in the day as everyone in the house was busy preparing for the wedding she heard a knock at the door. All the others were too preoccupied with their duties, but she, the bride, in the midst of beautifying herself, heard the knock at the door and took the time to answer. Standing there was a person asking for money. So she gave him a few coins. Rabbi Akiva nodded knowingly, "Tzedaka saves a person from death." Why should giving a few coins have the power to save a person's life? Why is Tzedaka such an incredible connector to life, blessing and abundance? To begin with Tzedaka is really not charity. Charity is doing something you don't have to do because you are being nice. You don't feel an obligation to give, but you want to be nice, so you'll give a few coins. That's what charity is, but that's not really Tzedaka. Tzedaka really means "justice." According to justice, you must help someone who has less than you. It's not giving because you feel like giving, and want to think of yourself as sweet and generous. Tzedaka is an obligation. By giving out of Tzedaka, out of justice, we justify our existence. Without giving, there's no reason to exist. Only by being contributing members of a community do we acquire worth. Tzedaka justifies our existence by demonstrating that we are a part of a community in service of a greater reality. At the same time, we recognize that what we are giving is not really our own. It's all G-d's wealth. We're just passing it on. Torah teaches that we are responsible to acknowledge - in thought, speech and action - the blessings of life's spiritual wealth and pass them on to the world. And Tzedaka fulfills that function. We give each to each, because we are all members of a community. Our higher purpose in being part of a community is to acknowledge G-d as the source of all life and goodness and thereby enjoy the opportunity of being a channel for the presence of G-d into this world. The simple act of giving Tzedaka accomplishes that in an instant. Winston Churchill once said, "We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give." Tzedaka is not being nice. Tzedaka is being honest. You are saying, in effect, "It's not my money. It's for me to pass it on. And the more I give away, the more I'm going to get." Now, if you can't give it away, it's because you think it's yours and you are the source of your wealth. When you know that it's not yours, that it's only entrusted to you, you have no difficulty in passing it on. A stingy person is like a wire trying to hold on to electricity. But isn't that crazy? Why would a wire want to hold onto electricity? Its whole purpose is to pass it on, to be a conductor of electricity. That's why a wealthy person is not a person who has a lot. A wealthy person is a person who gives a lot. A person who gives a lot understands that he is plugged into the source of all wealth. G-d is the source of blessing and wealth. The more conscious a person is of G-d as the source of wealth, the more he can become a vehicle to channel wealth into the world. But when a person holds onto money, thinking, "It's my money. It's just for me," eventually he will lose his wealth. Maybe he won't lose his money literally, but he will lose the blessing of that money. That's why when people who are experiencing financial difficulties seek the advice of a rabbi, often he will tell them, "Give more Tzedaka." It may sound odd. Here a person is struggling, unable to make ends meet, and the solution is to give what little he has away? But it works, because by letting it flow out one end, new resources flow in the other end. I remember a wealthy philanthropist I met in Los Angeles. He told me that when he sold the controlling shares in one of his businesses, he put in the contract that the new owners had to give 10% of all earnings to Tzedaka. In the contract negotiations the prospective buyers objected, "That's ridiculous! We've never seen anything like this. You can't put that into a contract. You're retaining only a small percentage of the shares. You can't dictate that we give away 10% of our earnings." The philanthropist retorted, "If you don't put that into the contract, I won't sell it to you, because you'll destroy my business. The reason I have been blessed with success is that my business is a vehicle for G-d's wealth to come into the world. As long as it continues to dispense Tzedaka, I know it's going to continue to receive wealth, because the more it passes it on, the more it gets. I know where all this wealth is coming from." The buyers decided not to mess with success and accepted his conditions. A wealthy, very generous man named Joe Berman once told me something which made a deep impression on me. He said, "Very often, when people go through bad times, they ask, 'Why me?' Well, why don't people, when they go through good times, ask, 'Why me?' My whole life, I've been blessed with good times, and I've always asked, 'Why did it come to me? What am I supposed to do with it?' Because I could see that it certainly wasn't coming in just to make me rich." Very wise advice. We all have to ask ourselves this same question: "Why me? If I have this money, why me?" Rabbi David Aaron Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting G-d In and Living A Joyous Life **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080828/f78b0ee0/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Aug 29 08:51:11 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:51:11 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] SIGN - "TAV" In-Reply-To: <48B66D9F.7050702@westnet.com.au> References: <48B66D9F.7050702@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0808290651l4b36e2cdp7f20fcdad395f394@mail.gmail.com> May I forward this to Rabbi Uri in New Orleans? Kim On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:19 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > *Shalom Chaverim, > * > > *It is with great concern that I write this post. > * > > *The 29th August 2005 saw the devastation of New Orleans by Hurricane " > Katrina". > Now 3 years on, almost to the day, Hurricane " Gustav " is threatening to > strike the Louisiana coastline. Estimates have predicted that its current > intensity of category 3 may be upgraded to category 5 as it intensifies over > the Gulf of Mexico. The Governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans > have already instigated plans for mass evacuations should the need arise. > * > > *Now, what makes this so significant ? I would like to quote from an > earlier post that I wrote : > * > > * > * > > On the 21th of August 2005 as my friends were being kicked out of the Gush, > compliments of Ms Condi Rice, a category 5 Hurricane by the name *Katrina > *was forming in the Caribbean. It then made a bee line for New Orleans, > Condi's city. The rest is history. In Judaism there is a biblical concept > called *" Midda Kenneged Midda "* or *" Measure for Measure".* 8000 > citizens of the Gush were made refugees, 800,000 citizens of New Orleans > were made refugees. BTW the word *Katrina *has the Hebrew root word *Keter > *which means *"Crown"* HaShem was showing the world *WHO IS WEARING THE > CROWN.* The 2005 Hurricane season spawned 26 hurricanes. *26* is the > number of HaShem. > > *The name " Gustav" comes from the Swedish word which means " the staff of > the gods" > > The letter "g" is the seventh letter of the English alphabet. This > Hurricane is the 7th tropical storm of the season. Condi Rice has just > finished her 7th visit to the Middle East to procure the relinquishing of > Shomron (West Bank) from Yisrael to the Palestinians. This constant > convoluted land for peace deal! You would think that Condi would have > learned from the last hammering her home town endured. Midda Kenneged Midda > all over again. > > The name " Gustav " is made up of 2 Hebrew words GUS ( gimmel-vav-shin/sin) > and TAV ( tav-vav). Depending where you put the dot on the letter shin you > can get sin. So GUS can also be pronounced GUSH. TAV in Hebrew means label > or sign. Therefore we can deduce that the name of this Hurricane could mean > " the Sign of the Gush " - the staff in the hand of HaShem. First the crown > now the staff. Is HaShem trying to tell us something ???? Remember what > happened in Gush Katif three years ago. > > I hope that I am wrong. Monday the 1st of September, the day Hurricane > "Gustav" is predicted to make landfall is also Rosh Chodesh Elul. This month > starts the 40 day countdown to Yom Kippur and is the season of Teshuva > (Repentance). > > May we all return to HaShem with weeping and fasting. May HaShem protect > Ross and family, and all our friends in Louisiana should this Hurricane > eventuate as has been predicted. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > ** > > * > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/1bb723f2/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Fri Aug 29 11:18:47 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:18:47 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Re'eh: Seeing the Light Message-ID: <8CAD80A0D07FF2F-152C-28E@webmail-dd20.sysops.aol.com> >From Rav Shlomo Riskin; an American born Rabbi, who has built an entire?city (Efrat) in Israel.... Shabbat Shalom, ?????????? Hanoch Re'eh: Seeing the Light 28 Av 5768, 29 August 08 11:26 by by Rabbi Dr. Shlomo Riskin (IsraelNN.com) "See [re'eh] this day I set before you a blessing and a curse: A blessing when you listen [tishme'u] to the commandments of the Lord your G-d... and a curse if you do not listen to the commandments.... [Y]ou shall give the blessing on Mt. Gerizim and the curse on Mt. Eyval...." (Deuteronomy 11:26-29) This rather momentous exhortation contains a number of linguistic and conceptual problems. First of all, the very opening word, "see" (re'eh in Hebrew), is an imperative in the singular form; the verse goes on to state "when you listen" (Hebrew: tishme'u) which is in second-person plural. Why the change? ? Secondly, the text goes on to say that there will be a blessing "when you listen" (Hebrew: asher tishme'u) and a curse "if you don't" (Hebrew: im lo tishme'u). Here again, why the change? Thirdly, why the necessity of the two high mountains surrounding Shechem (modern-day Nablus)? What do these mountains signify? And, finally, the content of the blessings and curses come later on in the Bible (Chapter 27:11) with the concluding words being, "These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to conclude with the children of Israel in the Land of Moab in addition to the covenant he had made with them at Horeb (Mt. Sinai)." (Deuteronomy 28:69) What is the significance of this added covenant just prior to their entry into Israel? The two majestic mountains just outside of Shechem symbolize the difficult climb necessary for the Israelites to take in order for them to even begin to fulfill their G-d-given mandate of becoming a holy nation and a kingdom of priest-teachers to the world; and indeed this is the third covenant we entered into with G-d just prior to our entry into the Land of Israel. In addition to the Covenant at Sinai, the religious covenant of the Ten Commandments and the 613 laws of our Torah, we have a mission to become a light unto the nations of the world, at the very least to teach the seven universal laws of morality to all of the people of the globe (Maimonides, Laws of Kings 10, 8). Once the Israelites cross over the River Jordan, at the place from which the Israelites first entered their land and the logical place at which representatives of the world would later enter and exit the Jewish land, they were commanded to set up large stones coated with plaster and write upon them these laws of morality "in a very clear manner of explanation" (Hebrew: be'er heitev; and the midrashic explanation: translated into all seventy languages; Deuteronomy 27:1-8). These stones would graphically demonstrate our message to the whole of human civilization. Such a taxing and daunting universal task will seem less daunting when we consider the wor ds of Dr. Martin Luther King who used the metaphor of the mountain in his great "I Have a Dream" speech to the American people in 1963: "I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight." Essentially, the way to bring the exalted and distant mountain within our grasp is to climb it, step by step, for each step of our ascent makes the mountain seem lower and lower. In order for us to begin to carry out our mission to the world, we must first become a holy nation ourselves. The Bible tells us that the blessing will come when we keep the commandments, in an immediate fashion. After all, "the reward of a commandment is the commandment itself," the satisfaction we receive from helping a person in distress, the familial cohesiveness and inner peace we take with us as we observe the Sabbath day. If, G-d forbid, we do not listen to the commandments, then retribution may not come immediately, but eventually evil bears its own destructive fruits. The great Hassidic sage known as the Shpole Zeide expressed this truth in a very memorable way. He tells how, as a child, he would go to a shvitz (steam bath, or less sophisticated sauna) with his father, who would pour freezing cold water upon him just as he would begin to perspire profusely. "Ooh," he would inadvertently scream as the cold water contacted his burning hot flesh, but - after=2 0cooling down a bit - would exclaim happily, "Aah." "Remember my child, the lesson of the ooh and aah," the Shpole would hear from his father. "Before (and often even during) the commission of a transgression, you have physical enjoyment - aah. But afterwards, when you ponder your sin and suffer its consequences - ooh! In the case of a mitzvah, however, you might cry 'ooh' when you have to get up early for prayers or for a lesson of daf yomi, but in reflection of your religious accomplishment, you will always exclaim 'aah' afterwards. Make sure you conclude your life with an 'aah'." Why is the first opening word, re'eh - "see", in the singular? Two summers ago, Hizbullah, agents of Iran and Syria, were shooting Katyusha rockets into northern Israel, making the lives of the residents virtually impossible. Many inhabitants of more southern areas opened their hearts and homes to their embattled fellow citizens while our soldiers fought the enemy on the ground and from the air in Lebanon. In Efrat, we opened our Neveh Shmuel High School dormitories, kitchen, and dining hall, and many families opened their homes to temporary refugees from Karmiel and Bar Yohai. These groups included Sefardi haredim together with Russian immigrants, some of whom came with their Christian, cross-bearing spouses. Almost miraculously, the spirit of one nation Israel conquered all differences and everyone got along famously. One of my neighbors, who hosted six individuals for six weeks, breakfast, lunch and di nner, invited my wife and I to a special Friday evening meal at their home cooked by their guests (under supervision of the hostess). Before the hostess lit Shabbat candles, the three women (one of whom was wearing a cross) asked if they could join their hostess in the kindling of the Shabbat lights; I ruled in the affirmative. That entire Shabbat I was certain that the Messiah would come - and I know that he made significant headway in his journey. In order to truly climb the mountain, we must all take the upward trudge, collectively, as one. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/da8b3e69/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Fri Aug 29 11:36:24 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:36:24 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Rise of the Fall Virgin Message-ID: <8CAD80C82F1E5C5-152C-3E8@webmail-dd20.sysops.aol.com> A bit esoteric, but the symbolism is very intriguing... Shabbat Shalom, ???????????? Hanoch Rise of the Fall Virgin by HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2008 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved. Beautiful she is when she is who she is supposed to be. She is untouched whenever she cleanses herself of all foreign contact. She is pure every time that she makes herself to be. She comes before the great scales because this is her natural place. She serves us as role model. As she purifies the way before the great scales, so too do we, like her, purify ourselves. Her way is to seek the simplicity of youth. This can be restored even to the very old. She is the perennial Virgin, although her clothing can become soiled, she herself will forever remain pure. We ourselves say this every morning; "my G-d the soul you have given me is pure." The closer we move towards the scales, the more and more we become again like the Virgin. We too remove our soiled clothes and can stand naked, pure, fresh and unashamed, just like it was in Eden of old. The Fall begins the time of change, when summer heat cools and the Earth prepares to sleep. The Earth cannot sleep in filth. As it changes, it discards and buries its dead. Fresh summer leaves turn to many colors and fall to the ground, ready to be covered by the winter snow. They are absorbed again into the Earth, bringing replenishment so the cycle may begin again later. Our souls cannot go through the great scales filthy. They too must discard its filth and soiled garments. Our past actions must be discarded and cast into the depths of the sea, there to be remembered no more. The time of the Virgin shows us the way to be pure, to be forever pure, forever fresh, and forever new. We can then walk through the great scales as we did the first time and be blessed. At this time, we pause and ponder; we contemplate how we can restore that purity that compromise robs from us. Elul is the time of bonding, to rekindle the dwindling flame, to reunite with Heaven and by doing so regain our spiritual virginity even as it was in the beginning. The scales approach. Only the pure shall balance them. Those in balance fear not the scorpion's sting or the winter's snow. The time of the Virgin shows us the way to be pure, to be forever pure, forever fresh, and forever new. We can then walk through the great scales as we did the first time and be blessed. At this time, we pause and ponder; we contemplate how we can restore that purity that compromise robs from us. Elul is the time of bonding, to rekindle the dwindling flame, to reunite with Heaven and by doing so regain our spiritual virginity even as it was in the beginning. The scales approach. Only the pure shall balance them. Those in balance fear not the scorpion's sting or the winter's snow. --------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/948ea1ec/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Fri Aug 29 11:47:12 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:47:12 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] From Hevron Message-ID: <8CAD80E050BAB6B-152C-49F@webmail-dd20.sysops.aol.com> Ten years without Rebbi Shlomo David Wilder August 29, 2008 Tomorrow, Shabbat, it will be ten years. Ten years ago, Thursday, the eve of the first day of the last month of the Hebrew calendar. Ma?arat HaMachpela, the tomb of the Patriarchs and Matriarchs was fully open to Jewish worship. In early evening Rabbi Ovadiya Yosef arrived in Hebron, the first time he had visited the city and holy site in many years. At about 11:00 PM, as he concluded speaking to the hundreds present, beepers started buzzing. A terrorist had infiltrated the Hebron neighborhood of Tel Rumeida. Very quickly Ma?arat HaMachpela emptied and Hebron residents started making their way to Tel Rumeida. Details started to filter out: the victim was Rabbi Shlomo Ra?anan, sixty three year old grandson of Israel?s first chief Rabbi, Rav Avraham Yitzhak HaCohen Kook. The terrorist had stabbed him. Walking/running from the Ma?ara in the direction of the neighborhood I called a friend, a neighbor of the Ra?anans and also a paramedic. ?What?s his condition? ? I asked. David answered me, in a voice barely audible: ?There was nothing we could do, we couldn?t do anything to save him. He died.? Soldiers at the bottom of the hill leading up to Tel Rumeida attempted to prevent us from climbing the hill but I was not about to give in to their demands. Running, crisscrossing the street, I escaped their outstretched arms and co ntinued to the top. As I arrived Rebbetzin Chaya Ra?anan, Rav Shlomo?s widow, was being placed in an ambulance. It wasn?t clear if she too had been injured but she surely looked in shock.? Inside the neighborhood there was a smell of recently extinguished fire. The terrorist, following the murder, tossed a Molotov cocktail inside their caravan home, hoping to burn it to the ground. Fortunately neighbors were able to extinguish the fire before it spread to other caravan homes. Rabbetzin Chaya had managed to pull her dying husband outside before the living room went up in flames.?Only minutes before she had been involved in a tug-of-war with the terrorist, with her fatally injured husband in the middle, being pulled by both of them. However the terrorist had a knife and continued to stab his victim, puncturing his heart, killing him. He then jumped out a window and ran across the street, only meters away, into the Arab-controlled zone of Hebron, abandoned to the PA only a year before. According to the Hebron accords, Israel security forces were forbidden to enter that area and search for the killer. As a result, that same terrorist perpetrated a second attack on Yom Kippur, some six weeks later, injuring over twenty soldiers. Still not apprehended, a few weeks later he made his way to Beer Sheva, hoping to toss some hand grenades at civilians in the city?s central bus station. Only then was he captured and eventually imprisoned. The dead rabbi was lying on the ground outside his home, covered by a blanket. A little while later he was moved into a home, his body surrounded by candles. I spent the night in the office, looking for a photo I?d taken of him not too long before. The next morning the funeral ?began there in Tel Rumdeida, and continued to Jerusalem, where he was buried at Har HaZaytim ? the Mount of Olives, next to his illustrious grandfather and uncle, Rabbis Avraham Yitzhak HaCohen Kook, and Zvi Yehuda Kook. My reaction was almost instantaneous: I?d been negotiating for an empty apartment in Hebron. No more negotiations, no more demands: a week later my family moved from Kiryat Arba, where we?d lived for 17 years, to Beit Hadassah. I?d already been working here for four years, so it was sort of a closure. I felt like I?d come home. Why? Very simply: the terrorists use murder and other types of violence in an attempt to force us to leave. The only appropriate reaction is to do the opposite; not to leave, rather to move in. That?s exactly what we did. Yesterday, marking the 10th anniversary of the Rabbi?s killing, a large group of people gathered at the Gutnick Center, outside Ma?arat HaMachpela. Only meters away, thousands were visiting that holy site; being the eve of the new month of Elul, the entire building was open to Jewish worshipers.?Exactly as it was that fateful Thursday, ten years ago. For a few hours several important Rabbis delivered w ords of comfort and words of Torah to those present, including members of the Kook-Ra?anan-Shlissel families, and many others who came to pay their respects to the Rabbi and family. Those speaking included Rabbi Eliezer Waldman, Rosh Yeshiva of the Kiryat Arba Nir Yeshiva, Rabbi Hananel Etrog, Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Shavei Hevron, at Beit Romano in Hebron, Rabbi Doron Avichzar, Dean of the Netivot Dror Torah Academy at the Telem community, and Noam Arnon, who MC?d ?and also spoke about the connection between Rabbi Kook and Hebron. However, the most important speaker, in my opinion, was?Rav Michael Hershkovitz, Rabbi of the community Neria in the Binyamin region, and a teacher at Yeshivat Merkaz HaRav in Jerusalem. ?The theme of his dvar Torah was quite fitting: Learning Torah is important, but no less important is doing, implementing what you learn. He spoke at length describing how Rav Shlomo Ra?anan did just this: living in a caravan in the Hadar Beitar community, and following that, moving to another caravan at the Tel Rumeida neighborhood of Hebron.? For years the Rabbi studied and taught the value of settling the land of Israel, Eretz Yisrael. But realizing that words are not enough he followed in the footsteps of the teachings of his grandfather and uncle, not only talking, but also doing. This is Torah. It?s not easy living in small caravan homes. Tel Rumeida, somewhat isolated from the other neighborhoods of Hebron, is not the easiest place to live. Ever y morning, rain, snow or shine, the Rabbi would walk down the hill by himself to pray early morning prayers with a ?minion,? a prayer quorum of ten men. Every day he travelled back and forth to the Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva in Jerusalem, where he participated in Torah study and instruction.?Not easy for a man in his late 50s, early 60s. But the Rabbi always had a smile on his face, knowing all of Hebron?s children by name, always ready to help, with an easygoing personality humbly concealing his Torah genius. Concluding his remarks, Rabbi Hershovitz added, ?Rebbe Shlomo, I just want to let you know, even though you probably know from where you are, that your extended family has continued in your footsteps, following your example of Torah and deeds, settling the land, Eretz Yisrael Israel, just as you did.? Rebbetzin Chaya, sitting with her daughter Tzippy, both of whom today live in Tel Rumeida, only meters from where the Rabbi ?was murdered, ?despite the pain, couldn?t help but smile, knowing that the direction she and her husband had taken was being continued by their offspring. The Rabbi?s presence could definitely be felt amongst the participants, but for sure, all still feel the pain of his death and the vacuum his murder left, for his family, for his friends and neighbors, and for all of Am Yisrael. ?Zechar Tzadik l?vracha?- HaShem Yikom Damo. ?? comments The20Jewish Community of Hebron POB 105 , Kiryat Arba-Hebron 90100???????????? ?hebron at hebron.org.il?? Tour Hebron: Tel 972-52-431-7055 or write:? tour at hebron.com The Hebron Fund 1760 Ocean Ave., Brooklyn, NY 11230 hebronfund at aol.com?? 718-677-6886 ????????????????????? Web: www.hebron.com Ma'arat HaMachpela: www.machpela.com? Gift shop:www.hebrongifts.com You too can Help Hebron -? http://www.hebrontruma.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/fc7d83fe/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 32473 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/fc7d83fe/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 570 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/fc7d83fe/attachment.gif From youngbarzel at aol.com Fri Aug 29 12:35:50 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:35:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT ACTION ALERT - stop secret negotiations Message-ID: <8CAD814D0315CCF-152C-79F@webmail-dd20.sysops.aol.com> Unity Coalition for Israel http://www.israelunitycoalition.org EXPLANATION Momentous negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians are taking place virtually unnoticed while we are preoccupied with United States elections. A lame duck United States administration, very low in popularity polls, and an Israeli Prime Minister leaving office under a cloud of suspicion for corruption should not be making far-reaching Middle East policy decisions that will bind the next heads of State. Almost unnoticed by the media, the map of Israel is being dramatically altered. The State Department with steady pressure from Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice is overseeing the demise of Israel. Twenty-two Arab countries are pushing for yet another Arab state to be carved out of the one and only tiny State of Israel. This is a recipe for Israeli self-destruction. Under the cover of U.S. presidential convention hoopla, Israel's future is quietly and surreptitiously being determined. Please take a few minutes to send this important Urgent Action Alert to Prime Minister Olmert and the Knesset Members. Copies will also be sent to President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary of State Rice, and the White House Jewish desk. BACKGROUND ARTICLE Rice Visit: PA State Closer than Ever Hillel Fendel Arutz-7 August 26, 2008 (IsraelNN.com) Negotiations between Israel and PA continue at a "crazy" pace, agreement on dividing Jerusalem is "closer than ever," and U.S. Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice is pushing for a nearly-complete agreement on a Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria by January. So reports Aaron Klein of WorldNetDaily (WND). Secretary Rice, completing a visit to the region today (Tuesday), has been pressing Israel to sign a document by the end of the year that would divide Jerusalem. Rice says Israel must agree to a Palestinian state capital in Jerusalem - Israel`s own capital - and a full Palestinian state in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Despite official Israeli government denials, Jerusalem is thus very much on the negotiating table. The Shas Party, which has said it would quit the government if Jerusalem were to be negotiated, remains firmly in the government coalition. The Rice Compromise: Israel Remains in Jerusalem for 1-5 Years Klein quotes top diplomatic sources involved in the talks as saying that Rice has been pushing for a "compromise" between Israel and the PA that would involve Israel`s withdrawal from eastern Jerusalem, including the Old City, within one to five years. The Israeli team, led by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, is willing to conclude an agreement on a Palestinian state by the end of the year, but wants to leave talks to decide the fate of Jerusalem for a later date. The PA team, however, wants a deal by January on all core issues, including the Holy City. The Rice compromise, the sources told WND, asks Israeli leaders to bend and agree to promise sections of Jerusalem to the PA - but not to actually withdraw before one to five years have passed. U.S. President George W. Bush would then, just days before his term in office ends, issue an official letter guaranteeing U.S. support for the agreement. High Intensity Talks WND`s Klein quoted an unnamed Palestinian Authority negotiator saying that the intensity and frequency of Israeli-Palestinian talks in recent weeks have been "crazy," and that the sides have been meeting on a daily basis, usually at the highest levels. The negotiator further said Jerusalem is being discussed by both sides, and that the two teams are "closer than ever" on coming to an agreement on the status of the city. "This claim was verified to WND by other diplomatic sources involved in the negotiations," Klein wrote. Reports of the past few months say that the Olmert-Livni negotiators are prepared to give up well over 90% of Judea and Samaria, as well as land for a "safe passage" between those areas and Gaza. This, despite the results of the withdrawal from Gaza three years ago, which include the takeover of the area by Hamas and incessant rocket attacks on nearby Israeli areas. To Participate in the Action Alert, click on the link below to view the letter. You may use the letter as is or change anyway you like. < http://www.israelunitycoalition.org/aa/alert.php?id=28> ACTION ALERT - Stop Secret Agreement ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow? (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org http://www.womeningreen.org To make a contribution through Paypal, go to: http://www.womeningreen.org and click on the Paypal button -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080829/8c247dae/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Aug 30 05:02:38 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 20:02:38 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] SIGN - "TAV"] Message-ID: <48B91ABE.1000609@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080830/c25faa79/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "kim alvarado" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] SIGN - "TAV" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:51:11 -0500 Size: 12539 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080830/c25faa79/attachment.eml From mhyde7 at tds.net Sat Aug 30 06:00:26 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 07:00:26 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hashem our refuge and strength Message-ID: <000901c90a8f$9d909870$0400a8c0@marvin> I was doing some reading early this AM and came across this form Rabbi David Rosenfield, Chapter 3, Mishna 3. Following the link I came across an Interesting article. Many of us are dealing daily with almost over whelming situations in our everyday lifes. Many times I question God for answers and it seems like he allows some little something like a simple torah teaching to bring answers to our many questions. How does the verse go... "God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Notice the last couple of paragraphs - Noahide Precept! Just wanted to share.. Burach Hashem. Psa 46:1 To the chief Musician for the sons of Korah, A Song upon Alamoth. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Psa 46:2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; Psa 46:3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah. Psa 46:4 There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High. Psa 46:5 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early. Psa 46:6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted. Psa 46:7 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah. Psa 46:8 Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth. Psa 46:9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire. Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth. Psa 46:11 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah. There is a second fault with the leitzim of our mishna. R. Yom Tov Lipman Heller (16th - 17th Century German scholar), in his commentary Tosafos Yom Tov, observes that the mishna does not just refer to people who are not studying Torah, but who are not sharing words of Torah *between* them. They may very well be engrossed in their own studies, but they are ignoring each other. And this too reflects a serious lack of understanding. To fail to recognize the value of another human being and his or her opinions, to show no interest in hearing his Torah thoughts or sharing your own with him: this too is in the spirit of the "leitz". It reflects a lack of placing importance on that which certainly should be regarded: another human being. We will learn later, "Who is wise? One who learns from all people" (4:1 www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter4-1a.html). Torah study is not only an internal du ty. The Torah should be sought from all who have to offer it and shared with all willing to listen. Print Version Email this article to a friend Jewish Macho Chapter 4, Mishna 1(a) By Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld "Ben (the son of) Zoma said, who is wise? He who learns from all people, as it is said: 'From all those who taught me I gained understanding' (Psalms 119:99). Who is strong? He who conquers his evil inclination, as it is said: 'Better is one slow to anger than a strong man, and one who rules over his spirit than a conqueror of a city' (Proverbs 16:32). Who is rich? He who is satisfied with his lot, as it is said: 'When you eat the toil of your hands you are fortunate and it is good for you' (Psalms 128:2). 'You are fortunate' -- in this world; 'and it is good for you' -- in the World to Come. Who is honored? He who honors others, as it is said: 'For those who honor Me will I honor, and those who scorn Me will be degraded' (I Samuel2:30)." This week's mishna contains such sound words of wisdom, profound in their simplicity, that it hardly needs my embellishment. But I have to earn my weekly paycheck, so here goes... (Actually, I do this for free. ;-) (But I try to be rich according to our Mishna's definition (sigh).) The author of our mishna is Shimon ben Zoma. He is referred to by his father's name alone because he died at an early age or without having received rabbinical ordination (Rashi, see also Talmud Chagiga 14b). "Who is wise? He who learns from all people:" At its simplest level, the message is that one who seeks wisdom wherever it may be found is the one most likely to acquire it. He or she is willing to ask anyone and everyone. He is not so conscious of his own reputation as to refuse to "lower" himself to seek knowledge of someone not as important or credentialed as he. The Talmud writes that the Torah student who humiliates himself before others in order to understand the Torah (by asking his rabbi "stupid" questions and the like) will eventually be elevated on account of his Torah knowledge (Berachos 63b). (As an internet teacher, I know how many people begin their e-mails with: "I'm sure this is a stupid question, but..." Those are the ones who will not long be so "stupid". The ones too ashamed to admit their ignorance will be forced to wallow in it.) The commentator Rabbeinu Yonah writes further that when a person inquires wisdom of everyone, it indicates that he or she has a love of knowledge. His thirst will take him to every person and every place; it will not be quenched until he has drunk his fill. Such a person may be considered wise even before he has studied, since his desire will soon lead him on the straight path towards scholarship. There is a deeper insight into ben Zoma's words. Why is learning from *everyone* so crucial for accomplishment in Torah? Isn't it true that some people just don't know as much as others? Should we really be spending time trying to glean bits of information from the unlearned when we would make much better use of our time studying ourselves or from our teachers? The answer lies in the true understanding of the Torah's definition of wisdom. When G-d commanded us to study His Torah, it was not just a matter of memorizing dry facts and information. That could be gained from texts and book knowledge alone. We would never need to bother interacting with anyone else (thereby interrupting our own study time). Rather, Torah study at its highest level is the understanding of the *application* of the Torah's principles to real people and real life situations -- how do the Torah's eternal truths apply to the human condition. G-d's wisdom is eternal, yet no two people are precisely alike and relate to the Torah in precisely the same manner. Every one of us has his own perspective, his own life story, and his own unique personality. Each of us will see a slightly different message in the Torah, and will have his or her own fresh insight into its beauty and relevance. Therefore, the Torah scholar cannot *really* understand the Torah if he does not comprehend what it means to another human being. By my very nature, I cannot understand the Torah in every sense it has to convey. I am bound by my own perspective, my own background, my own intellectual capacities, and my own way of thinking. And the Torah is far too profound and all-encompassing to be fully fathomed by any single individual, no matter how wise. I must branch out; I must attempt to understand what the Torah means to my fellow -- what are the other equally-valid methods of relating to truth. I must grow out of my own shell. When I realize that truth is far more composite and multifaceted than it appears to me -- that black-and-white to me may be shades-of-gray to my fellow -- I am ready to truly become wise. There is a Midrash which states that there is one letter in the Torah for every single Jew. Every one of us has his own unique understanding of the Torah and his own angle on truth. No one has the monopoly on the word of G-d. And only when the student of the Talmud is prepared to grow out of his own limited perspective and view the Big Picture, has he truly embarked on the path of Wisdom. "Who is strong? He who conquers his evil inclination:" Our mishna tells us that strength should not be measured in physical might and fighting ability, but in restraint and the controlling of one's passions. Rabbeinu Yonah observes that ben Zoma -- as seen from the verse he quotes -- does not even entertain that physical strength might be the determinant of a man's might. Human beings rate pretty low as far as that's concerned. Being one of the weakest, slowest (relative to our size), most delicate (in terms of what our stomachs can take, extreme temperature endurance, etc.), longest to mature of the animal kingdom, we have very little to brag about. G-d did not seem to invent us as His wondrous masterpieces of grace, strength or endurance. If we see ourselves as nothing more than physical specimens -- if our self-image is based on our macho -- we are trading in the far higher goals G-d has in mind for us for something which just does not fit the spec's. The quoted verse does, however, contrast one who is slow to anger to a warrior. (R. Yonah understands the "strong man" of the quoted verse to mean a soldier.) Warriors at least exhibit some level of bravery and self-discipline. A soldier who can survive basic training and endure harsh battle conditions, a commander who can orchestrate a military campaign -- such individuals demonstrate true valor -- of character as well as of body. (One cannot help but notice the high proportion of presidents and national leaders who preceded their political careers with successful military careers (a recent notable exception aside -- he was an exception to a lot of things ;-) . My sense is that this is only in part due to the heroics associated with military distinction. The voting public may also have a sense that someone who has the necessary self-discipline and strength of character to run a battalion may just have the super-discipline required to run a country.) To this ben Zoma states that nothing matches willpower. True strength is that of the spirit; that of the body is different in kind. "Passive" behavior -- not losing one's cool when the kids are infuriating, holding oneself back when insulted, resisting temptation -- may appear more as doing "nothing" than acting with strength. (What could be more "manly" than banging on the table, slamming the door, and screaming at the top of your lungs?) But as our Sages correctly observe, it often takes far greater strength to do nothing than to react and to overreact. Strength is controlling the animal that lurks within. Rashness, violence, thinking with one's muscles -- all of these are forms of losing one's control and one's humanity, and in the final analysis, are signs of weakness. One final interesting observation is the universality of this law. As we know, there are Seven Noachide Laws -- seven fundamental laws which G-d commanded all of mankind. Possibly, six of them are ones we'd "expect" to see -- do not kill, steal, commit adultery, etc. One, however, is a little off the beaten track -- not to eat a limb severed from a living animal. Somehow, that does not strike us as one of the fundamental tenets of human morality. What is so crucial about it? Why did G-d deem it so far-reaching as to command its observance on the entire world? I have heard R. Noach Orlowek of Yeshiva Aish HaTorah, Jerusalem (http://aish.com) explain as follows. What is the theme of this commandment? In a word, self-restraint. Don't just take whatever you want whenever you want it. You want to eat meat? You want to eat *raw* meat? Immediately? At least wait until the animal is dead. This is not a matter of religious ritual or living ascetically. That was not commanded on all of mankind. But one thing was: don't be an animal. This is universal; it is a simple matter of and a fact of our humanity. A person cannot live, nor can society function, if people do nothing more than satisfy their desires -- whenever they want and wherever they want. The Seven Laws do not tell us we must be Jews, but they do tell us we must be humans. Really not so much to ask of us, but above all else this is what distinguishes us -- what crowns us -- as G-d's creations. _____ Text Copyright C 2005 by Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld and Torah.org . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080830/8bf89bab/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 439 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080830/8bf89bab/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 810 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080830/8bf89bab/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 9687 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080830/8bf89bab/attachment.jpe From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 31 08:49:24 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:49:24 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Symptoms of insanity in Israel... Message-ID: This last two sentences show how this is designed to 'play out' - this MUST be stopped! Hanoch Olmert: Let Foreigners Help Change Status of Jerusalem by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has proposed to Palestinian Authority (PA) Chairman Mahmoud Abbas that the international community participate in helping to determine the status of Jerusalem. He will meet with Abbas on Sunday, probably for the last time before Kadima party members go to the polls in less than three weeks to elect his replacement. The international community's role would be that of advisors, but would give it large media exposure in attempts to divide the city and make it a shared capital of both Israel and a new Arab country. Leaders of the European Union (EU) and other Western countries have suggested that Jews not have exclusive sovereignty over its holy sites in the city. Yasser Arafat, Abbas's predecessor, rejected a similar offer by then-Prime Minister Ehud Barak in 2000. His rejection of the proposal stemming from the Oslo Agreements helped spark the Oslo War, also referred to as the "second intifiada," that unleashed suicide bombings, machine-gun ambushes and rocket attacks that have killed more than 1,000 Israelis. Prime Minister Olmert as recently as two years ago stated that Jerusalem is Israel's "undivided and eternal" capital, and the Shas party has said several times it will leave the coalition and topple the government if the status of Jerusalem is negotiated. Prime Minister Olmert as recently as two years ago stated that Jerusalem is Israel's "undivided and eternal" capital. However, the Prime Minister has successfully maneuvered negotiations around this obstacle while the Knesset remains out of session, and the media generally has avoided restraining him or questioning him or Shas on its previous promises. Technically, the agreement could allow Shas to claim that Prime Minister Olmert only is placing into effect a mechanism to discuss the status of Jerusalem in the future and that dividing the city is not being negotiated at the moment. Possible international monitors under consideration are Jordan, the Vatican, Egypt and the Quartet, which includes Russia, the United Nations, the United States and the EU. Prime Minister Olmert's proposal calls for a final status agreement to be reached within five years. If Abbas agrees, the deal could effectively bind the next government through international pressure. **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080831/fd591534/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Aug 31 08:53:05 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:53:05 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Prayer's Power Message-ID: (http://trailer.web-view.net/Links/0XED9C6020BEB56F667DB4658C7DABC4701979E5496A18C4D3FC73AC894F3CA02CB5D3383B65416CEE75831FB2BD0E17C74BD63E613A1D5FFD55 15544A71326F50.htm) The Power of Tefilla ---- --- The Shiur was given on elul 5767 >From "Chemdat Yamim" Parsha Sheet _www.eretzhemdah.org_ (http://trailer.web-view.net/Links/0XC239D79E8A48709557B2557CF673CBF2FD48BC904C11B62DE1C91AFE2E4D64D986DCE1E65DE46F8275831FB2BD0E17C74 BD63E613A1D5FFD5515544A71326F50.htm) Dedicated to the memory of R' Meir b"r Yechezkel Shraga Brachfeld zt"l Parashat Ha?azinu relates that Hashem told Moshe "b?etzem hayom hazeh" (in the midst of this day) to go to Har Nevo and die (Devarim 32:48). The Sifrei points out that this is one of three places that the Torah writes (in a narrative setting) b?etzem hayom hazeh. The others are Noach entering the ark and Bnei Yisrael leaving Egypt, both during the day. The message in all, according to Chazal, is that Hashem was demonstrating that He would make the history-altering event happen before the eyes of those who opposed it and show them that they were incapable of stopping it. Rav Neventzal (Sichot L?Yom Hakippurim, pp. 95-104) asks a simple but insightful question. Hashem did challenge Noach?s neighbors to prevent Noach from entering the ark and the Egyptians from allowing Bnei Yisrael from leaving. Each was naturally capable of preventing the event. However, why would Bnei Yisrael think that they could prevent Moshe from dying? One could answer based on the Midrash Tanchuma (Vaetchanan 6) that Hashem offered Moshe that he could enter the Land, but the price was that Bnei Yisrael would have to be destroyed, an offer Moshe rejected. Perhaps Bnei Yisrael would have taken a drastic step of agreeing to have a plague or the like to take responsibility for its shortcomings, thus forcing Hashem to allow Moshe to live. In any case, Rav Neventzal cites a different answer in the name of Rav Chaim Shmulevitz. Had Hashem allowed them to do so, Bnei Yisrael could have prayed in an extremely sincere, impassioned manner for Moshe?s survival, which would have kav?yachol forced Hashem to accept their prayers. We find a similar concept in the gemara in Ketubot (104a) regarding the death of Rebbi (Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi). He was suffering greatly as he was on the verge of death, as the righteous of his generation prayed beneath his home for his survival. Seeing his situation, his servant prayed that the heavenly beings who wanted Rebbi should overcome the people who wanted him to live, but the people were praying too strongly, and he thus did not die. The servant threw a jug near the crowd, with the explosion silencing the prayers for long enough for Rebbi to die. We see from these sources how exceptionally strong the power of tefilla is. Of course, not every prayer is intense enough to be a formidable force for Hashem to reckon with. As Rav Neventzal points out briefly (and we, even more briefly) not every wish should be prayed for and not always does one get the response he desires. But every proper prayer is noticed and leaves some kind of mark in the Heavens and the earth. When we say that "repentance, prayer, and charity can remove the harm of the decree" these words are literal and powerful beyond our natural expectations. Let us take them seriously and make the most of the powerful tools we were granted. **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080831/f77df76e/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Sun Aug 31 20:47:52 2008 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 20:47:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Re'eh's Haftara In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48BB49C8.4080400@gninc.ca> My dear brothers and sisters I woke up storm tossed and afflicted too, as it were. It is the time of Alul, for real even for an old man like me, one of no apparent significance at all, that is, if I were to hold on to what I have been made to believe for most of my entire life. I normally should sleep another 3 or 4 hours in order to be able to go to work at 7 in the morning. But since I found such a storm brewing in my mind. I decided to put my ear phones on and listen to the last part of a CD from Rabbi Lazer Brody called "Pleased yo meet you"! I had heard it a couple of times but had always fallen asleep before I heard it all. What I heard this time was brought to my attention that it is advisable to ask Hashem for advice about everything we face in life, if we desire His blessings on it. So instead of falling asleep again, the burden became heavier, so I was prompted to read the weekly (not the daily one) writing from Rabbi Abrahan Greenbaum. Which again prompted me to go to Joshua 8, referring to Joshua leading , to Israel's totally destroying every soul of their enemy in Ai, and burning the city. And it referred and led to all of Israel being gathered on the 2 mountains to hear the blessings and the curses, according to their choice, just before entering into the promised land. Now this was no child's play. To receive the blessings, always upon their choices, they would need to heed the advice of Hashem. I wonder if He hears my cry? In other words, am I heeding His advice when He clearly speaks to me? Or am I crusted over with a hard shell of Mennonitism yet, that Hashem can not get through to me? I lately shared about the case with my grandson Jamie, there was such a response from the group praying for Jamie. I felt comforted just to know that it did not rest on my prayers alone. I have since talked twice to Jamie's used to be host Cohen, for those 3 weeks, and have not had the chance to talk with Jamie himself. But what I have heard from Cohen, that German couple with whom Jamie was staying. And really he didn't have hardly anything good to say about Jamie. When or what I'm reading between the lines, is a little different than what he is saying though. Now , let's keep in mind, these people are Sabbath keepers, and have left a church of a couple of million members, but he does not want to reveal the name of that church. It seems quite obvious though that could hardly be any other than the World Wide Church of God, the adventists. Very nice people, he is quite open too, but very easily seems to believe that demonic power is involved. So when Jamie had some Lazer Brody material brought into their house, they saw demons on the walls, so that stuff had to leave the house. He also confirmed quite clearly that Jamie was demon influenced, yet he did not turn against me for being the instigator of that Jewish material. Before Jamie left from their house he had told Cohen, (that is his first name) that he, Jamie was not Jewish minded anymore. I just find it a very hard to hear this being said about Jamie. When it is quite obvious that Jamie will have found himself short changed, thinking he was finally coming into a Jewish relations by staying with these people. Only to find they were Christians too. But I am so glad to have this consolation that some of you prayer wariours are or have been praying for him. Please don't quit! And Joe, when we talked you suggested that I should not try to lead Jamie, but just walk beside him, and allow him to make his own choices, but to let him know that I'll be there when he needs me. Beautiful advice. I realize it is OK even if he makes some wrong choices. And that really is all I did with Jamie, I allowed him to make choices. But seems like what took years to build up any interest in the chosen people of God for one like Jamie, can in one stroke all be destroyed by these different, but well meaning Christians. I do realize that for Jamie to find his way through this maze will take a miracle. His heart seems to be a bit hardened by what he has been through. Cornie YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > > Re-Counting the Prophets - Rabbi Pinchas Frankel > > > *Haftarah of Parshat **Re'eh **- 5760* * * > > * "Afflicted and Storm-Tossed One, and Not Comforted" > (Yeshayahu 54:11) ** * > > The Haftarah of Re'eh is the third of the "Haftarot of Consolation," > in the series of seven such Haftarot. Both the Ashkenazic > and Sefardic > communities take this > Haftarah from the Book of Yeshayahu, beginning with "Perek"/Chapter > 54, Verse 11, through (and including) Chapter 55, Verse 5. > > *Introduction * > > In the conversation that Avudraham constructs from these Haftarot, > among HaShem, His Prophets and the People of Israel, this is the one > in which the People of Israel complains that it is not comforted, > because it is receiving the consolation indirectly, from the Prophets, > rather than from HaShem. Next week, the Master of the Universe gets > into the act, when He says, "I, even I (using the unusual form > 'Anochi) am the One Who comforts you" (Yeshayahu 51:12). But in > truth, HaShem already has declared Himself to be the "Menachem," the > Comforter, in this Haftarah, where He says in the first "Passuk" (54:11), > > "Behold, I ('Anochi') will set your stones in fair colors," > and again in "Passuk" (54:16), > > "Behold, it is I ("Anochi") Who created the blacksmith, > Who blows fire on the coals, > And brings forth a weapon for his work, > And I ("Anochi") created the destroyer to undo him." > > *The Haftarah - Translation and Commentary * > > *Yeshayahu 54:11* > > "O afflicted and storm-tossed one, > And not comforted, > Behold, I will set your stones in fair colors, > And lay your foundations with sapphires." > > All the commentators relate this promise of comfort to Yerushalayim. > Targum Yonatan says, "?the walls about which the nations of the world > said that you would never be comforted, HaShem says, "I will lay its > foundation with diamonds." * * > > *Yeshayahu 54:12 * > > "And I will make your pinnacles of rubies, > And your gates of iridescent diamonds; > And all your borders of precious stone." > > I will return to the City of Jerusalem, once a beautiful "wonder of > the world," its aspect of physical beauty. But that's not all. * * > > *Yeshayahu 54:13* > > "And all your children shall be taught by HaShem, > And great will be the peace of your children." > > The situation will be the *opposite* of that described by Yirmiyahu in > the Haftarah of Parshat Masei (Yirmiyahu 2:8), the Second of the > "Haftarot of Punishment," > > "The Priests did not ask, 'Where is HaShem?' > And the "scholars" of Torah did not know me?" > > RADAK points out that this idea *is like that* stated by Yirmiyahu, > > "No longer will one person have to teach another, because everybody > will know Me, from children to adults." > > And this "Passuk" is also the source of the following Talmudic > statement (Masechet > Berachot 64a), "Rabbi Elazar said in the name of Rabbi Chanina, > '*Torah scholars increase peace in the world,'* as it is said, 'And > all your children will be taught by HaShem, and great will be the > peace of your children;' do not read 'your children' (banayich), but > 'your builders' (bonayich)." * * > > *Yeshayahu 54:14* > > "In righteousness shall you be established - > Stay far away from oppression, > Then you will have no reason to fear, > Or to feel terror, > For they will not approach you." > > You will once again be the City described in Yeshayahu 1:21 as "full > of Justice, in which Righteousness would lodge?" * * > > *Yeshayahu 54:15-17* > > "Behold, they may gather together, > But not be sent by Me, > Whoever conspires against you will fall." > > "Behold, I have created the blacksmith, > Who blows fire on the coals, > Who brings forth a weapon for his work, > But I have created the destroyer to undo him." > > "No weapon made to attack you will succeed, > And every tongue that speaks against you shall fail; > This is the heritage of the servants of the L-rd > And their just reward from Me, > Says HaShem." > > HaShem says, "I am the One Who brought against you enemies whose aim > was to destroy you, such as Sancheriv and Nevuchadnezzar, because I > used them to punish you when you rebelled against Me. But now, your > enemies have no authorization from Me. They are Gog and Magog, who > will fight against you immediately prior to the Coming of the > Mashiach, and be defeated by you. And when they attack you in the > Halls of "Diplomacy" (such as the UN, Oslo or Wye (Why indeed?)), with > false speech, where you will find "Long has my soul dwelt with those > who hate peace; I am for peace - but when I speak, they are plotting > for war" ("Tehillim"/Psalms 120:7), I will help you defeat them there > as well." > > The following chapter in Yeshayahu is dedicated to two great themes: > Torah and Teshuvah , > Repentance. The first five P'sukim, that are part of our Haftarah, > deal with Torah, the precious gift from HaShem to us and, through us, > to humanity at large. The rest of the Perek deals with Teshuvah and, > appropriately, is read as the Haftarah on a "Taanit Tzibbur," a Public > Fast Day, the purpose of which is the arousal of feelings of Repentance. > > *Yeshayahu 55:1* > > "Ho, everyone who is thirsty, come for water; > And he that has no money, > Come, buy and eat, > Come buy wine and milk > Without money and without price." > > "Mayim," the "Drink of Life," means here and in many other locations, > the Torah. Here, Yeshayahu points to our priceless possession, the > Torah. > > The Torah, for our People, is as vital as is water. We are destined > to be Teachers of Torah to the world, who ultimately will seek it and > value it as they do food and drink. > > *Yeshayahu 55:2* > > "Why do you spend your money on that which is not bread? > And you expend effort to purchase > That which does not satisfy? > Listen carefully to Me and eat that which is good, > And let your soul delight in richness!" > > RADAK understands this Passuk as strongly advocating the study of > Torah, which is called "good" in the verse, "for I have given you a > *good teaching*; do not forsake My Torah!" ("Mishlei"/Proverbs 4:2) > > And further, that the part of the Passuk that speaks of delighting the > soul also speaks of the Torah, and is referring to the World-to-Come, > for just as something that is fat and rich delights the body, so is > the Torah a delight for the soul. > > *Yeshayahu 55:3* > > "Incline your ear, and come to Me, > Hear, and your soul shall live, > And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, > Like the everlasting kindnesses I have shown to David." > > RADAK understands this Passuk as referring to the time of the > Mashiach, when the everlasting kindness that HaShem showed to David > will be revealed in the person of the Mashiach, who will be a > descendant of the House of David. > > Metzudat David also understands the Passuk to mean "Obey Me, and you > will merit to be brought back to life at the time of the Mashiach." > > *Yeshayahu 55:4* > > "Behold I have given him as a witness to the nations, > A prince and a commander for the nations." > > RADAK again relates this Passuk to the Mashiach, whose greatness will > compel the nations of the world to accept him as their commander. > > *Yeshayahu 55:5* > > "Behold you shall call a nation that you did not know, > And a nation who did not know of you > Will now run to you; > Because HaShem your G-d, > The Holy One of Israel, > Has glorified you." > > Metzudat David explains that just as I have fulfilled My kindness with > David, will I fulfill My Promise of Kindness to you. And this will be > manifested in that nations from the ends of the earth will come and do > your bidding, because they sense in your behavior the special quality > of holiness, implanted in you by the Presence in your midst of the > Holy One of Israel. > > *Rabbi Pinchas Frankel* > > / Rabbi Frankel is an Educational C / / oordinator at the OU / > > > > > It's only a deal if it's where /you/ want to go. Find your travel deal > *here* > . > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080831/77d8e1b4/attachment.html