From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Dec  1 05:51:10 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 03:51:10 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] The Buchari Kippah
In-Reply-To: <c0d.4277ddc1.3664c995@aol.com>
References: <c0d.4277ddc1.3664c995@aol.com>
Message-ID: <855590370812010351k3e91b144n82e54a2b31acb65@mail.gmail.com>

LOL -- Ross, let me know how many you want, and in which colors.  They're
sold *all *around here; the Bucharian community relocated (from Central
Asia) to my neighborhood 12 years ago.

 NYC does have some advantages, sometimes....

                  Hanoch

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:01 PM, <RNDAVAR at aol.com> wrote:

>  I just have to tell you that I saw the coolest Kippah I have ever seen
> tonight. I'm not that big of "hat guy" but I really liked the one that
> Simcha Jacobovici wears. It is called a Buchari Kippah. I had never seen one
> of these until I met him in Charlotte last April.  I looked around and found
> several sites on the web that had these but just never found the right
> one....until tonight.
>
> Glenn was one of the Roots of Faith congregants that made the trip to
> Charlotte with me in April. Most of you know him. He and his wife Rhonda are
> two of my closest friends. One of their daughters (Connie) is on this list
> as well.
>
> So Glenn enters the synagogue tonight for Sunday Shul wearing the best
> looking Kippah that I have ever seen! My mouth dropped open. Here is my
> buddy wearing the kippah that I have always wanted! So I asked him where he
> got it and he tells me that Connie made it.
>
> Not sure why I felt like I should share this experience on the list.  I
> guess it is a way to introduce Connie to the list for one thing.  I have
> never met her in person but do know that she is quite the Bible student, has
> wonderful parents and is very skilled at making things with yarn!
>
> Hope you don't mind Connie:)  Please put me on the list for one of these
> and send the bill to your dad:)
>
> On my blog (
> http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2008/04/23/uiwu-conference.htm)
> there is a photo that Joy Beth took of a few of us in Charlotte last April.
> Simcha is seen here wearing this style of Kippah. When I get mine I will
> wear it while I teach.
>
> James Tabor, me and my son Zachariah are the others in the photo.
>
> *Ross K. Nichols *
> www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com<http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002>
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Dec  1 06:10:19 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:10:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Buchari Kippah 
In-Reply-To: <c0d.4277ddc1.3664c995@aol.com>
References: <c0d.4277ddc1.3664c995@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B076A4F7-582A-4C3B-BFAC-AB1BFC4C70D1@earthlink.net>

Send us a photo of Glenn in his new Kippah. I would love to see it.

You know, the Sanhedrin cave is located in the Buchari areas of  
Jerusalem, so there might be more here than you realize in terms of  
your link to these things...

Good week,

James


On Dec 1, 2008, at 12:01 AM, rndavar at aol.com wrote:

> I just have to tell you that I saw the coolest Kippah I have ever  
> seen tonight. I'm not that big of "hat guy" but I really liked the  
> one that Simcha Jacobovici wears. It is called a Buchari Kippah. I  
> had never seen one of these until I met him in Charlotte last  
> April.  I looked around and found several sites on the web that had  
> these but just never found the right one....until tonight.
>
> Glenn was one of the Roots of Faith congregants that made the trip  
> to Charlotte with me in April. Most of you know him. He and his wife  
> Rhonda are two of my closest friends. One of their daughters  
> (Connie) is on this list as well.
>
> So Glenn enters the synagogue tonight for Sunday Shul wearing the  
> best looking Kippah that I have ever seen! My mouth dropped open.  
> Here is my buddy wearing the kippah that I have always wanted! So I  
> asked him where he got it and he tells me that Connie made it.
>
> Not sure why I felt like I should share this experience on the  
> list.  I guess it is a way to introduce Connie to the list for one  
> thing.  I have never met her in person but do know that she is quite  
> the Bible student, has wonderful parents and is very skilled at  
> making things with yarn!
>
> Hope you don't mind Connie:)  Please put me on the list for one of  
> these and send the bill to your dad:)
>
> On my blog (http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2008/04/23/uiwu-conference.htm 
> ) there is a photo that Joy Beth took of a few of us in Charlotte  
> last April. Simcha is seen here wearing this style of Kippah. When I  
> get mine I will wear it while I teach.
>
> James Tabor, me and my son Zachariah are the others in the photo.
>
> Ross K. Nichols
> www.RootsofFaith.org
>
>
>
>
> Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com.
> _______________________________________________

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec  1 06:09:51 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:09:51 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: computer crash.
Message-ID: <608031082-1228133555-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1745636303-@bxe010.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Hey all,

This is from Joe.  His computer is down.

John C.

------Original Message------
From: jid at westnet.com.au
To: John Carlson
Sent: Dec 1, 2008 2:08 AM
Subject: computer crash.

Hello John, 
my computer crashed this morning. I have lost my contacts for the time being.I logged on a secondary computer to retrieve current messages and your email had come through. 
Could you please pass this message on to the dialogue list and hopefully in due time I will be up and running again. 
? 
Blessings JOE.


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec  1 07:00:42 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 13:00:42 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Buchari Kippah 
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS3F53F30E8FFB58FD9C8F3BA010@phx.gbl>
References: <c0d.4277ddc1.3664c995@aol.com>
	<BLU125-DS3F53F30E8FFB58FD9C8F3BA010@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <120120081300.20019.4933DFFA000171C200004E3322230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Glenn, you need a picture on the new site anyway.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


Send us a photo of Glenn in his new Kippah, please!  Connie must be very talented indeed.  I want to learn how to make one too.  In fact, I would LOVE to learn to make one of these Kippahs.  Just got in a little while ago, so missed tonight's class, but will catch up this week.  I know it was great!  ~ Pat


From: RNDAVAR at aol.com 
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 12:01 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] The Buchari Kippah 


I just have to tell you that I saw the coolest Kippah I have ever seen tonight. I'm not that big of "hat guy" but I really liked the one that Simcha Jacobovici wears. It is called a Buchari Kippah. I had never seen one of these until I met him in Charlotte last April.  I looked around and found several sites on the web that had these but just never found the right one....until tonight.

Glenn was one of the Roots of Faith congregants that made the trip to Charlotte with me in April. Most of you know him. He and his wife Rhonda are two of my closest friends. One of their daughters (Connie) is on this list as well.

So Glenn enters the synagogue tonight for Sunday Shul wearing the best looking Kippah that I have ever seen! My mouth dropped open. Here is my buddy wearing the kippah that I have always wanted! So I asked him where he got it and he tells me that Connie made it.

Not sure why I felt like I should share this experience on the list.  I guess it is a way to introduce Connie to the list for one thing.  I have never met her in person but do know that she is quite the Bible student, has wonderful parents and is very skilled at making things with yarn!

Hope you don't mind Connie:)  Please put me on the list for one of these and send the bill to your dad:)

On my blog (http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2008/04/23/uiwu-conference.htm) there is a photo that Joy Beth took of a few of us in Charlotte last April. Simcha is seen here wearing this style of Kippah. When I get mine I will wear it while I teach.

James Tabor, me and my son Zachariah are the others in the photo.

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org








Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com.



_______________________________________________
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Dec  1 07:02:16 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:02:16 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Buchari Kippah 
In-Reply-To: <120120081300.20019.4933DFFA000171C200004E3322230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <c0d.4277ddc1.3664c995@aol.com>
	<BLU125-DS3F53F30E8FFB58FD9C8F3BA010@phx.gbl>
	<120120081300.20019.4933DFFA000171C200004E3322230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <F697F3B4-CFC3-4F49-AAC1-8EFF44011D8C@earthlink.net>

Now there is an idea...I did not think of it. Glenn needs to be on the  
new site with his Kippah photo!

James


On Dec 1, 2008, at 8:00 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

> Glenn, you need a picture on the new site anyway.
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
> -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com 
> >: --------------
>
> Send us a photo of Glenn in his new Kippah, please!  Connie must be  
> very talented indeed.  I want to learn how to make one too.  In  
> fact, I would LOVE to learn to make one of these Kippahs.  Just got  
> in a little while ago, so missed tonight's class, but will catch up  
> this week.  I know it was great!  ~ Pat
>
> From: RNDAVAR at aol.com
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 12:01 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] The Buchari Kippah
>
> I just have to tell you that I saw the coolest Kippah I have ever  
> seen tonight. I'm not that big of "hat guy" but I really liked the  
> one that Simcha Jacobovici wears. It is called a Buchari Kippah. I  
> had never seen one of these until I met him in Charlotte last  
> April.  I looked around and found several sites on the web that had  
> these but just never found the right one....until tonight.
>
> Glenn was one of the Roots of Faith congregants that made the trip  
> to Charlotte with me in April. Most of you know him. He and his wife  
> Rhonda are two of my closest friends. One of their daughters  
> (Connie) is on this list as well.
>
> So Glenn enters the synagogue tonight for Sunday Shul wearing the  
> best looking Kippah that I have ever seen! My mouth dropped open.  
> Here is my buddy wearing the kippah that I have always wanted! So I  
> asked him where he got it and he tells me that Connie made it.
>
> Not sure why I felt like I should share this experience on the  
> list.  I guess it is a way to introduce Connie to the list for one  
> thing.  I have never met her in person but do know that she is quite  
> the Bible student, has wonderful parents and is very skilled at  
> making things with yarn!
>
> Hope you don't mind Connie:)  Please put me on the list for one of  
> these and send the bill to your dad:)
>
> On my blog (http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2008/04/23/uiwu-conference.htm 
> ) there is a photo that Joy Beth took of a few of us in Charlotte  
> last April. Simcha is seen here wearing this style of Kippah. When I  
> get mine I will wear it while I teach.
>
> James Tabor, me and my son Zachariah are the others in the photo.
>
> Ross K. Nichols
> www.RootsofFaith.org
>
>
>
>
> Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________

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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Mon Dec  1 10:42:13 2008
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:42:13 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Dave and Eddie tour
Message-ID: <BCE574AC99AC403D8D4DD52DF7D68281@davesbook>

Below is the body (used with permision) of an email from my long time friend David Dunnehoo, I feel that those who know David (paul) Dunnehoo and love the land, will want to say a "special" prayer that "the land" will survive a visit from my friend DD....("ifin" you have to ask......don't!)..........
                                                 
Dave Cole                                          
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shalom y'all,                             

Well Eddie and I made it. It was a wet start and the plane ride out out Baton Rouge was delayed three hours. We got to Atlanta with 30 minutes to spare.  We got to Tel Aviv at 5:30 P.M. on Sunday. We checked into the Renaissance Hotel on the Mediterranean Sea. We had supper(don't go to sleep on me, just yet) and took a walking tour of the immediate area and found out where we could convert dollars into Shekals. It is cheaper buying with Shekals than Dollars. Anyway we got to sleep, I was worried that I would keep Eddie awake with my snoring, but he had earplugs and he snores louder than I. 

Everyone will be here in about two hours and we will supper together and they will tell us what is expected of us. I already know what I won't be doing this year. So for I haven't been stopped by the police or military and hope to not break my record of being stopped and questioned five times and having a machine gun pulled on me in the 'old city'. I will try to keep it boring this year. 

I have already had one phone call, but I am not answering my phone this year, E-MAIL ONLY! (that means you David Cole). Eddie and I will be swimming in the indoor cement pond in a few minutes and have an afternoon nap. And then supper and get ready to leave for the tour in the morning.

Hopefully the news letter will get more exciting and we look forward to y'all 'mail' to us. All questions and response will get my or Eddie's personal attention and respondance.

Love you guys

David and Eddie
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From rndavar at aol.com  Mon Dec  1 12:50:28 2008
From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:50:28 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Buchari Kippah
In-Reply-To: <855590370812010351k3e91b144n82e54a2b31acb65@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c0d.4277ddc1.3664c995@aol.com><855590370812010351k3e91b144n82e54a2b31acb65@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1861200437-1228157344-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283931153-@bxe114.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Thanks for the offer Hanoch, but I am on the list for one that is handmade by an Ephramite member of Roots of Faith;)

No joke, this thing is beautiful. Last year a friend came back from Israel with several of these and none really jumped out and grabbed me.

Plus, if I am to reach the lost tribes and non-Jewish world with the message of Torah faith it is only fitting that I wear a kippah made by an Ephraimite. I may come to NY to sell these on the street in the Bucharian community;)

It is that good!

Shalom
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 03:51:10 
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Buchari Kippah


_______________________________________________



From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon Dec  1 13:36:46 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:36:46 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Mumbai Memorial.
In-Reply-To: <4932F903.6080105@westnet.com.au>
References: <4932F903.6080105@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6AE5711BFCD547F4AC7B3765A10167A9@bettylaptop>

Joe,

 

This was most beautiful!  Thank you so much for sharing this and all the
many, many other posts you send our way.  I have been off list for quite
some time due to a number of reasons, but hopefully will again be able to
contribute.  I just wanted to tell you thank you for all that you share.you
continually share your "light" with all of us.  Thank you for being who you
are.

 

I hope your computer crash is temporary and you will be up and running soon
again.

 

Love and Blessings coming your way,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:35 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Mumbai Memorial.

 

Shalom Chaverim,

THIS SAYS IT ALL
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_HNmTJcvrGo
<http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_HNmTJcvrGo&eurl=http://www.israelnationalnew
s.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/3>
&eurl=http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/3

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon Dec  1 15:24:41 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:24:41 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Goodness & Light (forward)
Message-ID: <5B4D8AE59394430E83E05B78B1BB5031@bettylaptop>

Dear friends,

 

I received this email on another list and asked permission to pass it on.  I
pray that in these difficult times, it will touch your life as it touched
mine.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

"The 'rebbe' teaches us when confronted with darkness, we respond with

> 

> even more light," Cunin said. "This is horrifically dark, so we must 

> do

> 

> even more. It tells us we have to be even more vigorous in our 

> outreach

> 

> efforts to spread goodness and kindness."

> 

> -- Rabbi Chaim Cunin of the Chabad Center in Los Angeles

> 

> Who can hate a lamb?

> 

> If it fair to consider life as a candle, then a life, as does a 

> candle,

> 

> can give it's beholders a way to guide in a dark place.

> 

> All too soon, they are consumed.

> 

> We that behold and benefit from this "light" owe a great, unmeasurable

> 

> debt.

 

 

 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  2 08:26:50 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:26:50 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Goodness & Light (forward)
In-Reply-To: <5B4D8AE59394430E83E05B78B1BB5031@bettylaptop>
References: <5B4D8AE59394430E83E05B78B1BB5031@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS44EA3FE4F3FE0CC00E5E3BA000@phx.gbl>

Incredibly beautiful, Betty!  Thank you so much!!!  ~ Pat


From: Betty Givin 
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 4:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Goodness & Light (forward)


Dear friends,

 

I received this email on another list and asked permission to pass it on.  I pray that in these difficult times, it will touch your life as it touched mine.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

"The 'rebbe' teaches us when confronted with darkness, we respond with

> 

> even more light," Cunin said. "This is horrifically dark, so we must 

> do

> 

> even more. It tells us we have to be even more vigorous in our 

> outreach

> 

> efforts to spread goodness and kindness."

> 

> -- Rabbi Chaim Cunin of the Chabad Center in Los Angeles

> 

> Who can hate a lamb?

> 

> If it fair to consider life as a candle, then a life, as does a 

> candle,

> 

> can give it's beholders a way to guide in a dark place.

> 

> All too soon, they are consumed.

> 

> We that behold and benefit from this "light" owe a great, unmeasurable

> 

> debt.

 

 

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue Dec  2 08:39:55 2008
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:39:55 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Mumbai attacks
Message-ID: <003401c9548b$d96c4ab0$0400a8c0@marvin>

Interesting article on the Mumbai attacks, link provided below..

 As we all look for the next domino to fall, remember the "shot that was
heard around the world".   While watching the news of this attack the first
report was that the Rabbi and his wife were hostage, then later it was
reported they had been killed and then the report came that little Moyshel'e
Holtzberg, their son, had simply wander away to safety.  I nearly jumped
form my seat and holler,  "Now that is biblical, Hashem has his hand on that
child", the wife from the other room wanted to know what I was hollerin
about.   I like so many of us,  look out into the world and wonder / ponder
what is going to happen next, what is the next move in God's plan.

Last year, about this time several of my brothers and I went out for a quail
/ pheasant hunt and as we walked through the fields our conversation center
around two main themes, like all brothers and family get together there are
many conversations going on at once , but there were two themes that the
conversations kept coming back to.  Politics and who would get the
nomination by both of the parties and a conversation I started on the
biblical theme of the lost tribes and Ephraim and the returning to the land.
My brothers 4 in number have not awaken to this idea yet,..   Since
naturally they are under the replacement theology, and they spiritualize the
Jews, Israel, the land and everything else that doesn't fit on the Roman
road. At any rate, we are not a political family but we do watch the news as
we read our bibles.  One of my brothers asked me about the candidates and in
particular, Obama and what did I think about him and if he became President.
My reply,  "In my spirit, in the pit of my stomach, I feel and see him as a
dark horse". Naturally, 4 heads turned and look at me and questioned the
comment. I responded, "That is not to be understood as a racial comment",
I said,  "I'm speaking form a biblical,  view point, a horse in the sense of
Zechariah or Revelation".  In my spirit I have never associated a color with
what I felt 16 months ago, only a dark disturbing sense, a fear,
apprehension, or uneasiness, my spirit was troubled, but I was not afraid. I
know Hashem(YHVH) is in control.   We are living in interesting times!

As Joe stated in a previous post:  Please dear chaverim do not lose focus as
the veil of darkness descends upon the world. Let the light of revelation
bring hope and warmth to a corrupt, dying and evil world.

 

 

Strategic Motivations for the Mumbai Attack By Stratfor Geopolitical
Intelligence Report

 

Setting the Stage for a New Indo-Pakistani Confrontation --- and what it
means for us

 

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1208/stratfor120208.php3

 

 

Shalom,

 

Marvin

 

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Dec  2 11:34:06 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 11:34:06 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Goodness & Light 2
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS44EA3FE4F3FE0CC00E5E3BA000@phx.gbl>
References: <5B4D8AE59394430E83E05B78B1BB5031@bettylaptop>
	<BLU125-DS44EA3FE4F3FE0CC00E5E3BA000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <98B58453BE0E4213B1AE42037796A08B@bettylaptop>

Thanks, Pat.  In light of the horrific incident in India last week and all
the other acts of terror and baseless hatred in our world, these words
indeed came thru as a light in the darkness!

 

How sad that the beautiful light of these "candles" who lit the darkness
were all too quickly consumed!

 

I am reminded of the kindling of the Shabbat candles each erev Shabbat and
all that it represents...commemorating the Creation and the First Light that
HaShem brought into the world from the darkness.  Our Shabbat candles light
up the night and give us hope for a better world, a world in which G-d's
people will be recognized and appreciated for who they are and for all the
goodness they have brought to humanity, where they and all the peoples of
the earth will be treated humanely and with love...

 

In the meantime, may we rest in the promise given in the Torah portion
Haazinu that record the prophet Moshe's last words as he admonishes... 

 

"Therefore, O nations, make His people's lot a happy one,

For He will avenge the blood of his servants.  

And He will turn back vengeance upon His enemies, 

And His people will atone for His world." Deut. 32:43

 

And from the Sabbath candle lighting prayer." May the glow of our faces
never be dimmed.  Show us the glow of your face, HaShem, and we will be
saved!"

 

Love and Shalom to all,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 8:27 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Goodness & Light (forward)

 

Incredibly beautiful, Betty!  Thank you so much!!!  ~ Pat

 

From: Betty Givin <mailto:bkgivin at charter.net>  

Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 4:24 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] Goodness & Light (forward)

 

Dear friends,

 

I received this email on another list and asked permission to pass it on.  I
pray that in these difficult times, it will touch your life as it touched
mine.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

"The 'rebbe' teaches us when confronted with darkness, we respond with

> 

> even more light," Cunin said. "This is horrifically dark, so we must 

> do

> 

> even more. It tells us we have to be even more vigorous in our 

> outreach

> 

> efforts to spread goodness and kindness."

> 

> -- Rabbi Chaim Cunin of the Chabad Center in Los Angeles

> 

> Who can hate a lamb?

> 

> If it fair to consider life as a candle, then a life, as does a 

> candle,

> 

> can give it's beholders a way to guide in a dark place.

> 

> All too soon, they are consumed.

> 

> We that behold and benefit from this "light" owe a great, unmeasurable

> 

> debt.

 

 

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Tue Dec  2 17:22:03 2008
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 17:22:03 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Mumbai attacks
References: <003401c9548b$d96c4ab0$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <99D7A75955B640B7913670B153078F38@davesbook>

Hey Marvin and list,

Although I haven't visited the link you referenced yet, I also wonder what will happen next as events are seemingly starting to heat up.  I am with you,  Joe and many others in praying for guidance in "not losing focus" during these troubled times.  I just wanted to respond to your post, as I am @#$#@ed off how the media in this country (from my perspective) has for the most part not gotten "it" when I comes to a Jewish Rabbi and his wife among others being murdered in  premeditated cold blood........and the next thing you know its.....holiday shopping!  No wonder why the ones that perpetrated this crime see Americans/westerners as pigs?  Why hasn't someone/anyone taken to the street in mass protest to this crime?  Are we back to the Clinton years of trying to police the world......with out success?
 
dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mhyde 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 8:39 AM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Mumbai attacks


  Interesting article on the Mumbai attacks, link provided below..

                               (main body cut )

                                       dave

    I know Hashem(YHVH) is in control.   We are living in interesting times!

  As Joe stated in a previous post:  Please dear chaverim do not lose focus as the veil of darkness descends upon the world. Let the light of revelation bring hope and warmth to a corrupt, dying and evil world.

   

   

  Strategic Motivations for the Mumbai Attack By Stratfor Geopolitical Intelligence Report

   

  Setting the Stage for a New Indo-Pakistani Confrontation --- and what it means for us

   

  http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1208/stratfor120208.php3

   

   

  Shalom,

   

  Marvin

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  2 19:14:38 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 20:14:38 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Mumbai attacks
In-Reply-To: <003401c9548b$d96c4ab0$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<99D7A75955B640B7913670B153078F38@davesbook>
References: <003401c9548b$d96c4ab0$0400a8c0@marvin>
	<99D7A75955B640B7913670B153078F38@davesbook>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS4183E0FF52181B388FA4BBA030@phx.gbl>

AMEN, DAVE!!!!


From: Dave Cole 
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:22 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Mumbai attacks


Hey Marvin and list,

Although I haven't visited the link you referenced yet, I also wonder what will happen next as events are seemingly starting to heat up.  I am with you,  Joe and many others in praying for guidance in "not losing focus" during these troubled times.  I just wanted to respond to your post, as I am @#$#@ed off how the media in this country (from my perspective) has for the most part not gotten "it" when I comes to a Jewish Rabbi and his wife among others being murdered in  premeditated cold blood........and the next thing you know its.....holiday shopping!  No wonder why the ones that perpetrated this crime see Americans/westerners as pigs?  Why hasn't someone/anyone taken to the street in mass protest to this crime?  Are we back to the Clinton years of trying to police the world......with out success?

dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mhyde 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 8:39 AM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Mumbai attacks


  Interesting article on the Mumbai attacks, link provided below..

                               (main body cut )

                                       dave

    I know Hashem(YHVH) is in control.   We are living in interesting times!

  As Joe stated in a previous post:  Please dear chaverim do not lose focus as the veil of darkness descends upon the world. Let the light of revelation bring hope and warmth to a corrupt, dying and evil world.

   

   

  Strategic Motivations for the Mumbai Attack By Stratfor Geopolitical Intelligence Report

   

  Setting the Stage for a New Indo-Pakistani Confrontation --- and what it means for us

   

  http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1208/stratfor120208.php3

   

   

  Shalom,

   

  Marvin

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Wed Dec  3 00:08:42 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 01:08:42 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Looking back and looking forward
Message-ID: <c0e.3ddf9773.36677c6a@aol.com>

Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008 is the 6th of Kislev on the Hebrew Calendar.  
This date on the Hebrew calendar (Kislev 6) marks the three year anniversary of 
 my receiving the keys to Temple Sinai Synagogue. Three years ago, this date 
fell  on Wednesday, December 7th (2005), but when I checked the Hebrew dates I 
 realized that the actual anniversary is today!
 
The Torah reading associated with this date on the Hebrew calendar is  
Vayyetze (Genesis 28:10-32:3). The Haphtorah is Hosea 12:13-14:10.
 
A few points of interest from this Torah Reading:
 
This reading of course has the dream of Jacob (28:16-17). When I read  
Jacob's words I cannot help but to connect them with the feeling I get about  this 
synagogue and what is in store if we remain faithful. Of this "makom -  place", 
Jacob says, "this is the house of God" twice (Genesis 28:17 and  28:22).
 
I see this place, through the teaching that goes forth every week, as means  
to call attention to the idols that people hold in their heart and mind.   
Idols play a key part of this Torah reading. Remember that Rachel steals her  
father's idols and hides them (Genesis 31:19, 34). In the haptorah, we find this  
as well (Hosea 13:1-2), but we see something else later! In Hosea 14:9, we 
see  that Ephraim denounces idolatry! May we lead people away from idols through 
our  efforts! 
 
It is interesting to me that this particular reading is the one that marks  
the day I received the keys to the synagogue. This passage from Hosea 14 
(verses  2-10) is the one read on Shabbat Shuva (The Sabbath of Return or 
repentance). I  encourage you to read this Torah Reading this weekend.
 
The Torah reading contains the birth of the sons of Israel (except for  
Benjamin whose birth is recorded in chapter 35). Most are aware that the  "Tribes" 
are a major part of my understanding of Scripture. So I find it of  special 
importance that in the year 1903, when the Temple was dedicated that the  
following words were declared:
 
The newspaper (True Democrat - March 28, 1903) covered the dedication and  
recalls the words of one of the speakers - "His prayer was that the grace of God 
 should descend upon this house and its people, and many now and in years  to 
come might learn the ways of righteousness and the paths of  peace through 
its influence as a house of worship"
 
Commenting on the words of another speaker at this dedication the article  
says, "He referred to the sympathy existing between Anglo Saxon and  Jew, and 
that there was a theory that the former was descended from  the Lost tribes of 
Israel. Be that as it may, there can be no doubt that  the Anglo Saxon is ever 
a cordial compatriot of his Hebrew Brother."
 
The dedication sermon was preached by a Dr. Heller. He began with Mah  Tovu.  
The article states that; "He briefly sketched the history of the  Jewish 
synagogue, which was successively tent, temple and house, as represented  by the 
tabernacle in the wilderness, the Temple on Moriah and the synagogue of  the 
middle ages the highest, a God-home and a heart-home, in which all the  loftiest 
instincts of man's likeness to God finds satisfying exercise. The  eloquent 
rabbi closed with a prayer that the newly consecrated synagogue might  become a 
God-home dedicated not by any breath of mouth or act of hand, but made  holy 
by the impressive associations and sacred rites of many a memorable  hour."
 
In 3 years, our teachings have literally reached the ends of the earth. We  
have live webcasts, podcasts, an email list with many members (knowledgeable  
ones - educated laity, biblical scholars, Jews and non-Jews who love God, 
Israel  and Torah), a newly formed social network (_www.rootsoffaith.net_ 
(http://www.rootsoffaith.net) ) that allows people  to meet and make new friends with 
common interests, and over the past couple of  weeks we have added video 
teaching for those who are not able to attend in  person.
 
I want to honor the prayers of those who went before me in the building and  
dedication of Temple Sinai. I want to take their vision and share it with the  
world. I want others to be a part of a noble effort to share Biblical truth 
with  everyone.
 
So tonight, I wanted to take some time to reflect on the blessings that  have 
come our way over the past three years. First, I have met some of the  most 
incredible people during this time. We have become the best of friends. I  look 
forward every week to seeing this incredible group of people. We have had  
some good memories, celebrated ancient Hebrew festivals, camped out together,  
traveled together, argued and debated, but through it all we have become a  
family! We love and trust one another. They are the most talented and dedicated  
group that I have been around and I am excited about what is to come for all 
of  us. With our new Synagogue Without Walls, we are able to open our doors to 
old  friends and new and provide a place of meeting for anyone that believes 
in the  one God of Israel and seeks to live according to the principles of the 
Hebrew  Bible.
 
I look forward to what is coming and hope you will be a part of bringing  
this vision to fruition and in advancing Abrahamic Faith.
 
Shalom and God Bless you all, Ross
 
 
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW 
AOL.com. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Wed Dec  3 05:54:23 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 21:54:23 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Fw: computer crash.]
Message-ID: <4936736F.3000108@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: computer crash.
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:09:51 +0000
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Wed Dec  3 07:55:24 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:55:24 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Fw: computer crash.]
In-Reply-To: <4936736F.3000108@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <120320081355.4012.49368FCC0003D27000000FAC22218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Welcome back Joe.  Keep pluggin!

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>: -------------- 

Shalom John,

thank you so much for passing this information onto the group.
I am back and running albeit minus 4 months of emails. I am still trying to retrieve them from the hard drive, may it rest in peace. I am still trying to back up all my files.

When I turned my computer back on I had some 85 emails to sort through.

Savlanut, I will limp for the next couple of days.

Hope to be fully functional after Shabbat.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Wed Dec  3 15:35:54 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:35:54 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism - BLUEPRINT - The secret to Jewish success
Message-ID: <4936FBBA.7080609@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Dec  4 04:21:04 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:21:04 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Mumbai attacks]
Message-ID: <4937AF10.60204@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: [Dialogue] Mumbai attacks
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Dec  4 04:28:02 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:28:02 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Goodness & Light 2]
Message-ID: <4937B0B2.40702@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Goodness & Light 2
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Dec  4 04:31:21 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:31:21 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Mumbai attacks]
Message-ID: <4937B179.7070304@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Mumbai attacks
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu Dec  4 13:27:50 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:27:50 -0600
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Goodness & Light 2]
In-Reply-To: <4937B0B2.40702@westnet.com.au>
References: <4937B0B2.40702@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <209C126CAD3B45AAABB8D70504D2B173@bettylaptop>

Shalom, Joe.  I love this prayer.glad you appreciated it and the verses from
Haazinu!  They were so touching and so fitting to this particular situation
that I just had to share them!  

 

I tried to watch the video and "hear" it, but my sound is not working, and I
have had so many problems with my computer, that I will need to check with
my computer guru before doing anything about it, but I will definitely watch
it!  

 

Todah Rabbah back to you, Achi,

 

Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:28 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Goodness & Light 2]

 

Shalom Elisheva,

wonderful and touching sentiments!!!!!!.
It could not have been said any clearer.

Your words echo the stirring speech by Rabbi Marvin Heir after the tragic
events in Mumbai. Please watch.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=rHeB81BbuYU

And from the Sabbath candle lighting prayer." May the glow of our faces
never be dimmed.  Show us the glow of your face, HaShem, and we will be
saved!"

Todah Rabbah
JOE

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu Dec  4 17:32:15 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:32:15 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism - BLUEPRINT - The secret to Jewish success
In-Reply-To: <4936FBBA.7080609@westnet.com.au>
References: <4936FBBA.7080609@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <F389DD6373B44F9EA2D2B6B6F76388A5@bettylaptop>

Thanks for this, Joe.  It looks familiar.I think I have come across it
already, and it struck me with awe the second time as much as it did the
first.  As you know the rabbis say that the "study of Torah" is equal to the
fulfillment of all the commandments.beautiful thought.of Torah study going
on at any given moment, and especially each Shabbat when we are all on the
same page, or rather, "parsha!" 

 

Since I don't have a Hebrew font, here is an awkward translation of the
blessing before studying Torah!

 

"Baruch ata Adonai, Elohenu Melech ha-olam asher kiddushanu b'mitzvotav, la
a'sok b'devrai Torah"  

Blessed are you, HaShem, King of the Universe who has commanded us in the
study of Torah"

 

My version to help me remember the Hebrew represents a change in the last
phrase and personalizes it for me.

Blessed are you, HaShem, King of the Universe who has commanded me to "soak
Betty in Torah."

 

Don't laugh, I need all the help I can get!

 

Shalom v'ahavah, and happy studies!

 

Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:36 PM
To: Dialogue
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism - BLUEPRINT - The secret to Jewish success

 

Shalom Chaverim,

here are some more people that are studying Torah.

Torah is what makes the world go around.
Some very interesting insights.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-1811803503133881732
<http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-1811803503133881732&ei=Ffo2ScOz
EYfq-gH-2ZynCQ&q=THE+SECRET+TO+JEWISH+SUCCESS&hl=en>
&ei=Ffo2ScOzEYfq-gH-2ZynCQ&q=THE+SECRET+TO+JEWISH+SUCCESS&hl=en 

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu Dec  4 17:49:16 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:49:16 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Looking back and looking forward
In-Reply-To: <c0e.3ddf9773.36677c6a@aol.com>
References: <c0e.3ddf9773.36677c6a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1B6DE100C51C47FEBC6E150AA5144764@bettylaptop>

A day late, Ross, but just wanted you to know how much I appreciate you and
all that you do.  I remember the first time you presented your ideas for the
Synagogue Without Walls and brought photos to show us in your presentation.
At that time, as you laid out your plans for the future, you asked us to
pray that you would be given free access to this historic little synagogue.
And those prayers have been answered many times over.probably even beyond
your dreams.

 

As you bring out below, it is quite amazing how when Temple Sinai was
dedicated in 1903, that not only Jews but those "lost descendants" from the
tribes of Israel and all those who love the G-d of Israel were mentioned.and
now over a hundred years later, it has again been dedicated and born again
to include people from all around the world!  

 

The words of Torah have rung out as far as the east is from the west, and
through your following HaShem's vision, it is bearing fruit, fruit that is
visible.so many of us have been brought together in this "virtual gathering,
and our numbers are growing!"   I feel very honored and privileged to be a
part of it all.

 

Toda Rabba and Baruch HaShem!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:09 AM
To: uilist at unitedisrael.org; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Looking back and looking forward

 

Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008 is the 6th of Kislev on the Hebrew Calendar.
This date on the Hebrew calendar (Kislev 6) marks the three year anniversary
of my receiving the keys to Temple Sinai Synagogue. Three years ago, this
date fell on Wednesday, December 7th (2005), but when I checked the Hebrew
dates I realized that the actual anniversary is today!

 

The Torah reading associated with this date on the Hebrew calendar is
Vayyetze (Genesis 28:10-32:3). The Haphtorah is Hosea 12:13-14:10.

 

A few points of interest from this Torah Reading:

 

This reading of course has the dream of Jacob (28:16-17). When I read
Jacob's words I cannot help but to connect them with the feeling I get about
this synagogue and what is in store if we remain faithful. Of this "makom -
place", Jacob says, "this is the house of God" twice (Genesis 28:17 and
28:22).

 

I see this place, through the teaching that goes forth every week, as means
to call attention to the idols that people hold in their heart and mind.
Idols play a key part of this Torah reading. Remember that Rachel steals her
father's idols and hides them (Genesis 31:19, 34). In the haptorah, we find
this as well (Hosea 13:1-2), but we see something else later! In Hosea 14:9,
we see that Ephraim denounces idolatry! May we lead people away from idols
through our efforts! 

 

It is interesting to me that this particular reading is the one that marks
the day I received the keys to the synagogue. This passage from Hosea 14
(verses 2-10) is the one read on Shabbat Shuva (The Sabbath of Return or
repentance). I encourage you to read this Torah Reading this weekend.

 

The Torah reading contains the birth of the sons of Israel (except for
Benjamin whose birth is recorded in chapter 35). Most are aware that the
"Tribes" are a major part of my understanding of Scripture. So I find it of
special importance that in the year 1903, when the Temple was dedicated that
the following words were declared:

 

The newspaper (True Democrat - March 28, 1903) covered the dedication and
recalls the words of one of the speakers - "His prayer was that the grace of
God should descend upon this house and its people, and many now and in years
to come might learn the ways of righteousness and the paths of peace through
its influence as a house of worship"

 

Commenting on the words of another speaker at this dedication the article
says, "He referred to the sympathy existing between Anglo Saxon and Jew, and
that there was a theory that the former was descended from the Lost tribes
of Israel. Be that as it may, there can be no doubt that the Anglo Saxon is
ever a cordial compatriot of his Hebrew Brother."

 

The dedication sermon was preached by a Dr. Heller. He began with Mah Tovu.
The article states that; "He briefly sketched the history of the Jewish
synagogue, which was successively tent, temple and house, as represented by
the tabernacle in the wilderness, the Temple on Moriah and the synagogue of
the middle ages the highest, a God-home and a heart-home, in which all the
loftiest instincts of man's likeness to God finds satisfying exercise. The
eloquent rabbi closed with a prayer that the newly consecrated synagogue
might become a God-home dedicated not by any breath of mouth or act of hand,
but made holy by the impressive associations and sacred rites of many a
memorable hour."

 

In 3 years, our teachings have literally reached the ends of the earth. We
have live webcasts, podcasts, an email list with many members (knowledgeable
ones - educated laity, biblical scholars, Jews and non-Jews who love God,
Israel and Torah), a newly formed social network (www.rootsoffaith.net) that
allows people to meet and make new friends with common interests, and over
the past couple of weeks we have added video teaching for those who are not
able to attend in person.

 

I want to honor the prayers of those who went before me in the building and
dedication of Temple Sinai. I want to take their vision and share it with
the world. I want others to be a part of a noble effort to share Biblical
truth with everyone.

 

So tonight, I wanted to take some time to reflect on the blessings that have
come our way over the past three years. First, I have met some of the most
incredible people during this time. We have become the best of friends. I
look forward every week to seeing this incredible group of people. We have
had some good memories, celebrated ancient Hebrew festivals, camped out
together, traveled together, argued and debated, but through it all we have
become a family! We love and trust one another. They are the most talented
and dedicated group that I have been around and I am excited about what is
to come for all of us. With our new Synagogue Without Walls, we are able to
open our doors to old friends and new and provide a place of meeting for
anyone that believes in the one God of Israel and seeks to live according to
the principles of the Hebrew Bible.

 

I look forward to what is coming and hope you will be a part of bringing
this vision to fruition and in advancing Abrahamic Faith.

 

Shalom and God Bless you all, Ross

 

 

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 





  _____  

Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try
<http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000
002>  the NEW AOL.com.

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Dec  4 18:54:04 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:04 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo
In-Reply-To: <1B6DE100C51C47FEBC6E150AA5144764@bettylaptop>
References: <c0e.3ddf9773.36677c6a@aol.com>
	<1B6DE100C51C47FEBC6E150AA5144764@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <007301c95673$fa8c0d40$efa427c0$@com>

Shalom All,

 

I am not sure if you got a change to visit the First Photos from Jerusalem
post on My Page, but while browsing through I found this and it brought
tears to my eyes. It's entitled Hotel For Pilgrims At Latrun, 1887. Compare
this to the Mount Zion Hotel where Dave and I were blessed to stay during
our visit last June.

 

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~dhershkowitz/pic173a-m.jpg

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Thu Dec  4 19:15:49 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:15:49 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] On Keeping the Commandments - Sunday Shul
Message-ID: <d3f.388af879.3669dac5@aol.com>

My next Sunday Shul is sure to challenge some. I am beginning to prepare it  
tonight, and as I write down my notes I have this sense that many people will  
"hear" this one. There are plenty of people out there who are  claiming to 
proclaim the way. 
 
Friends, we are and have been for many years, in a time when people will  not 
put up with sound teaching, but having itching ears, they have  accumulated 
for themselves teachers to suit their own desires and have turned  away from 
listening to the truth and wandered away to myths. I believe that  a friend is 
someone who will tell you the truth. Throughout the biblical texts  there are 
examples of false teachers who tell people what they want to hear. I  would be 
doing you a disservice if I did the same.
 
As most of you know, I am teaching a series based upon the book  Restoring 
Abrahamic Faith by James D. Tabor. If you do  not have a copy of this book, I 
encourage you to go tonight and get it. It is  available on the web 
(_www.genesis2000.org_ (http://www.genesis2000.org/) ). I am in my 7th  class in as many 
weeks and the 4th consecutive week on the subject of Following  the Way of 
YHVH. 
 
I am taking the topics from Tabor's book one by one and have been looking  
forward to this part of the book since I began.
 
This is the grand finale on the subject of Following the Way of YHVH. I  
think that I can cover this material in one lesson, but if I have to go another  
to make the point I will.
 
Here are a few questions / common beliefs that this week's class will  
address directly or indirectly:
 
On the Sabbath
Is Sabbath observance still part of following God's way? What day is the  
Sabbath? Does it really matter? I mean, after all, some esteem one day  better 
than another...but does God really care? Wasn't the Sabbath set  aside for 
Sunday (the Lord's day) after Jesus came? And what about Gentiles? Do  they need to 
even worry about the Sabbath since this is for the Jews?
 
On General Observance of the "Law"
Aren't all things lawful for me? 
 
Diet
I can eat anything I want since the "Kingdom of God is not food and  
drink"...right? After all, its not what goes in the mouth, but what comes  out. Didn't 
Peter's vision make it clear that all MEAT was clean?
 
No one can keep the Law anyway. It is too hard. Its a yoke on the neck that  
even the fathers were unable to bear.
 
Have you ever heard that the commandments were nailed to the cross? Taken  
away? Annulled? Superceded by a better covenant? I have heard this all of my  
life and this message is still going forth in full force. Would Yeshua approve  
of this message? WWJP - What would Jesus Preach?
 
How many commandments are there? Suppose I want to begin to follow the  
torah. Where do I begin? What is the greatest commandment in the Torah? Can the  
keeping of commandments lead to eternal life and bring one closer to the Kingdom 
 of Heaven?
 
Join me this Sunday evening at 7:00 EST / 6:00 CST for Sunday Shul. I hope  
you can join me. I also urge you to check out our Synagogue Without Walls on 
the  web at www.Rootsoffaith.net.
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Dec  4 19:38:38 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:38:38 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] On Keeping the Commandments - Sunday Shul
In-Reply-To: <d3f.388af879.3669dac5@aol.com>
References: <d3f.388af879.3669dac5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008601c9567a$33f9fd70$9bedf850$@com>

Hi Ross!

 

This is going to be great. Some of the questions/comments I have been asked
are:

 

1.       The Torah is "impossible" to follow; is a "burden".

2.       For me, every day is the Sabbath.

3.       The 7th Day Sabbath is the "Jews" day (yet it was hallowed before
there was a Jew).

4.        Jesus rose on Sunday so this is the "New Sabbath" ( he didn't, but
if he did - what does that have to do with the Sabbath?)

5.       It is "grace" or the "blood of Jesus" that leads to eternal life
(yet when Jesus was asked what must be done to inherit eternal life, did he
say "grace"? or "blood"? No, he said, "Keep the commandments")

 

Sorry..preaching to the choir..and the PREACHER!!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:16 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; uilist at unitedisrael.org
Subject: [Dialogue] On Keeping the Commandments - Sunday Shul

 

My next Sunday Shul is sure to challenge some. I am beginning to prepare it
tonight, and as I write down my notes I have this sense that many people
will "hear" this one. There are plenty of people out there who are claiming
to proclaim the way. 

 

Friends, we are and have been for many years, in a time when people will not
put up with sound teaching, but having itching ears, they have accumulated
for themselves teachers to suit their own desires and have turned away from
listening to the truth and wandered away to myths. I believe that a friend
is someone who will tell you the truth. Throughout the biblical texts there
are examples of false teachers who tell people what they want to hear. I
would be doing you a disservice if I did the same.

 

As most of you know, I am teaching a series based upon the book Restoring
Abrahamic Faith by James D. Tabor. If you do not have a copy of this book, I
encourage you to go tonight and get it. It is available on the web
(www.genesis2000.org <http://www.genesis2000.org/> ). I am in my 7th class
in as many weeks and the 4th consecutive week on the subject of Following
the Way of YHVH. 

 

I am taking the topics from Tabor's book one by one and have been looking
forward to this part of the book since I began.

 

This is the grand finale on the subject of Following the Way of YHVH. I
think that I can cover this material in one lesson, but if I have to go
another to make the point I will.

 

Here are a few questions / common beliefs that this week's class will
address directly or indirectly:

 

On the Sabbath

Is Sabbath observance still part of following God's way? What day is the
Sabbath? Does it really matter? I mean, after all, some esteem one day
better than another...but does God really care? Wasn't the Sabbath set aside
for Sunday (the Lord's day) after Jesus came? And what about Gentiles? Do
they need to even worry about the Sabbath since this is for the Jews?

 

On General Observance of the "Law"

Aren't all things lawful for me? 

 

Diet

I can eat anything I want since the "Kingdom of God is not food and
drink"...right? After all, its not what goes in the mouth, but what comes
out. Didn't Peter's vision make it clear that all MEAT was clean?

 

No one can keep the Law anyway. It is too hard. Its a yoke on the neck that
even the fathers were unable to bear.

 

Have you ever heard that the commandments were nailed to the cross? Taken
away? Annulled? Superceded by a better covenant? I have heard this all of my
life and this message is still going forth in full force. Would Yeshua
approve of this message? WWJP - What would Jesus Preach?

 

How many commandments are there? Suppose I want to begin to follow the
torah. Where do I begin? What is the greatest commandment in the Torah? Can
the keeping of commandments lead to eternal life and bring one closer to the
Kingdom of Heaven?

 

Join me this Sunday evening at 7:00 EST / 6:00 CST for Sunday Shul. I hope
you can join me. I also urge you to check out our Synagogue Without Walls on
the web at www.Rootsoffaith.net.

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 





  _____  

Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in
one place. Try
<http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000
010>  it now.

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Thu Dec  4 20:49:40 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:49:40 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] On Keeping the Commandments - Sunday Shul
Message-ID: <bc8.435f1916.3669f0c4@aol.com>

Patty,
 
I am looking forward to teaching this class for the reasons that you list  in 
your note. I think I may want you to come in as a guest speaker sometime! I  
think you could do this class!
 
I am thinking that we ought to have people discuss these classes on the  
forum. I know that there will be people that have things to add. Some will  agree, 
and some will have different views. Maybe people can comment on the web  site 
through one of the features...perhaps the forum.
 
See you Sunday night!
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Dec  4 20:57:52 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:57:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] On Keeping the Commandments - Sunday Shul
In-Reply-To: <bc8.435f1916.3669f0c4@aol.com>
References: <bc8.435f1916.3669f0c4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c801c95685$450c6890$cf2539b0$@com>

Wow - thank you Ross, I would be honored! I am looking forward to this
Sunday!

 

Love & Blessings,

 

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On Keeping the Commandments - Sunday Shul

 

Patty,

 

I am looking forward to teaching this class for the reasons that you list in
your note. I think I may want you to come in as a guest speaker sometime! I
think you could do this class!

 

I am thinking that we ought to have people discuss these classes on the
forum. I know that there will be people that have things to add. Some will
agree, and some will have different views. Maybe people can comment on the
web site through one of the features...perhaps the forum.

 

See you Sunday night!

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 





  _____  

Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in
one place. Try
<http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000
010>  it now.

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu Dec  4 23:46:03 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:46:03 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo
In-Reply-To: <007301c95673$fa8c0d40$efa427c0$@com>
References: <c0e.3ddf9773.36677c6a@aol.com><1B6DE100C51C47FEBC6E150AA5144764@bettylaptop>
	<007301c95673$fa8c0d40$efa427c0$@com>
Message-ID: <FF9D721DC5D645A9815CA4FB687E6B32@bettylaptop>

Patty, I had not seen the First Photos from Jerusalem post on your Page, but
will have to check it out.  This is indeed a moving photo.  I have not yet
been to Jerusalem, but I understand the Mount Zion Hotel where you stayed is
indeed beautiful.  Thanks for sharing.  Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:54 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Cc: 'David Tyler'; 'lori woodall'
Subject: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo

 

Shalom All,

 

I am not sure if you got a change to visit the First Photos from Jerusalem
post on My Page, but while browsing through I found this and it brought
tears to my eyes. It's entitled Hotel For Pilgrims At Latrun, 1887. Compare
this to the Mount Zion Hotel where Dave and I were blessed to stay during
our visit last June.

 

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~dhershkowitz/pic173a-m.jpg

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Fri Dec  5 00:04:22 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:04:22 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] On Keeping the Commandments - Sunday Shul
In-Reply-To: <008601c9567a$33f9fd70$9bedf850$@com>
References: <d3f.388af879.3669dac5@aol.com>
	<008601c9567a$33f9fd70$9bedf850$@com>
Message-ID: <FC14D82B554E4221B5A70D564164B7AB@bettylaptop>

Agreed!  Excellent questions/common beliefs, Ross, and Patty, thanks for the
sermon!  Your questions are right in line with the same ones that I have
heard.

 

 At one time or another, each of us probably all grappled with some of these
if not all, and still hear the same pat answers today when the discussion
comes up, but all the answers are first and foremost in the Torah, as I am
sure you will bring out, as Jesus himself upheld.  

 

It is good to be able to be back on the list and I am looking forward to
this teaching and to playing catch up with your other teachings.  Shalom,
shalom!  Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:39 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] On Keeping the Commandments - Sunday Shul

 

Hi Ross!

 

This is going to be great. Some of the questions/comments I have been asked
are:

 

1.       The Torah is "impossible" to follow; is a "burden".

2.       For me, every day is the Sabbath.

3.       The 7th Day Sabbath is the "Jews" day (yet it was hallowed before
there was a Jew).

4.        Jesus rose on Sunday so this is the "New Sabbath" ( he didn't, but
if he did - what does that have to do with the Sabbath?)

5.       It is "grace" or the "blood of Jesus" that leads to eternal life
(yet when Jesus was asked what must be done to inherit eternal life, did he
say "grace"? or "blood"? No, he said, "Keep the commandments")

 

Sorry..preaching to the choir..and the PREACHER!!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:16 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; uilist at unitedisrael.org
Subject: [Dialogue] On Keeping the Commandments - Sunday Shul

 

My next Sunday Shul is sure to challenge some. I am beginning to prepare it
tonight, and as I write down my notes I have this sense that many people
will "hear" this one. There are plenty of people out there who are claiming
to proclaim the way. 

 

Friends, we are and have been for many years, in a time when people will not
put up with sound teaching, but having itching ears, they have accumulated
for themselves teachers to suit their own desires and have turned away from
listening to the truth and wandered away to myths. I believe that a friend
is someone who will tell you the truth. Throughout the biblical texts there
are examples of false teachers who tell people what they want to hear. I
would be doing you a disservice if I did the same.

 

As most of you know, I am teaching a series based upon the book Restoring
Abrahamic Faith by James D. Tabor. If you do not have a copy of this book, I
encourage you to go tonight and get it. It is available on the web
(www.genesis2000.org <http://www.genesis2000.org/> ). I am in my 7th class
in as many weeks and the 4th consecutive week on the subject of Following
the Way of YHVH. 

 

I am taking the topics from Tabor's book one by one and have been looking
forward to this part of the book since I began.

 

This is the grand finale on the subject of Following the Way of YHVH. I
think that I can cover this material in one lesson, but if I have to go
another to make the point I will.

 

Here are a few questions / common beliefs that this week's class will
address directly or indirectly:

 

On the Sabbath

Is Sabbath observance still part of following God's way? What day is the
Sabbath? Does it really matter? I mean, after all, some esteem one day
better than another...but does God really care? Wasn't the Sabbath set aside
for Sunday (the Lord's day) after Jesus came? And what about Gentiles? Do
they need to even worry about the Sabbath since this is for the Jews?

 

On General Observance of the "Law"

Aren't all things lawful for me? 

 

Diet

I can eat anything I want since the "Kingdom of God is not food and
drink"...right? After all, its not what goes in the mouth, but what comes
out. Didn't Peter's vision make it clear that all MEAT was clean?

 

No one can keep the Law anyway. It is too hard. Its a yoke on the neck that
even the fathers were unable to bear.

 

Have you ever heard that the commandments were nailed to the cross? Taken
away? Annulled? Superceded by a better covenant? I have heard this all of my
life and this message is still going forth in full force. Would Yeshua
approve of this message? WWJP - What would Jesus Preach?

 

How many commandments are there? Suppose I want to begin to follow the
torah. Where do I begin? What is the greatest commandment in the Torah? Can
the keeping of commandments lead to eternal life and bring one closer to the
Kingdom of Heaven?

 

Join me this Sunday evening at 7:00 EST / 6:00 CST for Sunday Shul. I hope
you can join me. I also urge you to check out our Synagogue Without Walls on
the web at www.Rootsoffaith.net.

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 

 

  _____  

Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in
one place. Try
<http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000
010>  it now.

-------------- next part --------------
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri Dec  5 05:09:22 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:09:22 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo
Message-ID: <c72.43d55c25.366a65e2@aol.com>

I love this picture...reminded me immediately of Jeremiah 9:2.
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Dec  5 08:08:16 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:08:16 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Looking back and looking forward
In-Reply-To: <c0e.3ddf9773.36677c6a@aol.com>
	<1B6DE100C51C47FEBC6E150AA5144764@bettylaptop>
References: <c0e.3ddf9773.36677c6a@aol.com>
	<1B6DE100C51C47FEBC6E150AA5144764@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS49A0481F39B6EDB8EBFC5BAFE0@phx.gbl>

Yes!  Amen to all you said, Betty!  What a wonderful story!!!

May the Synagogue Without Walls continue to grow and prosper, and may our numbers become as the sands of the sea and stars of the skies!!!!

Avigail/Pat 


From: Betty Givin 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:49 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Looking back and looking forward


A day late, Ross, but just wanted you to know how much I appreciate you and all that you do.  I remember the first time you presented your ideas for the Synagogue Without Walls and brought photos to show us in your presentation.  At that time, as you laid out your plans for the future, you asked us to pray that you would be given free access to this historic little synagogue. And those prayers have been answered many times over.probably even beyond your dreams.

 

As you bring out below, it is quite amazing how when Temple Sinai was dedicated in 1903, that not only Jews but those "lost descendants" from the tribes of Israel and all those who love the G-d of Israel were mentioned.and now over a hundred years later, it has again been dedicated and born again to include people from all around the world!  

 

The words of Torah have rung out as far as the east is from the west, and through your following HaShem's vision, it is bearing fruit, fruit that is visible.so many of us have been brought together in this "virtual gathering, and our numbers are growing!"   I feel very honored and privileged to be a part of it all.

 

Toda Rabba and Baruch HaShem!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:09 AM
To: uilist at unitedisrael.org; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Looking back and looking forward

 

Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008 is the 6th of Kislev on the Hebrew Calendar. This date on the Hebrew calendar (Kislev 6) marks the three year anniversary of my receiving the keys to Temple Sinai Synagogue. Three years ago, this date fell on Wednesday, December 7th (2005), but when I checked the Hebrew dates I realized that the actual anniversary is today!

 

The Torah reading associated with this date on the Hebrew calendar is Vayyetze (Genesis 28:10-32:3). The Haphtorah is Hosea 12:13-14:10.

 

A few points of interest from this Torah Reading:

 

This reading of course has the dream of Jacob (28:16-17). When I read Jacob's words I cannot help but to connect them with the feeling I get about this synagogue and what is in store if we remain faithful. Of this "makom - place", Jacob says, "this is the house of God" twice (Genesis 28:17 and 28:22).

 

I see this place, through the teaching that goes forth every week, as means to call attention to the idols that people hold in their heart and mind.  Idols play a key part of this Torah reading. Remember that Rachel steals her father's idols and hides them (Genesis 31:19, 34). In the haptorah, we find this as well (Hosea 13:1-2), but we see something else later! In Hosea 14:9, we see that Ephraim denounces idolatry! May we lead people away from idols through our efforts! 

 

It is interesting to me that this particular reading is the one that marks the day I received the keys to the synagogue. This passage from Hosea 14 (verses 2-10) is the one read on Shabbat Shuva (The Sabbath of Return or repentance). I encourage you to read this Torah Reading this weekend.

 

The Torah reading contains the birth of the sons of Israel (except for Benjamin whose birth is recorded in chapter 35). Most are aware that the "Tribes" are a major part of my understanding of Scripture. So I find it of special importance that in the year 1903, when the Temple was dedicated that the following words were declared:

 

The newspaper (True Democrat - March 28, 1903) covered the dedication and recalls the words of one of the speakers - "His prayer was that the grace of God should descend upon this house and its people, and many now and in years to come might learn the ways of righteousness and the paths of peace through its influence as a house of worship"

 

Commenting on the words of another speaker at this dedication the article says, "He referred to the sympathy existing between Anglo Saxon and Jew, and that there was a theory that the former was descended from the Lost tribes of Israel. Be that as it may, there can be no doubt that the Anglo Saxon is ever a cordial compatriot of his Hebrew Brother."

 

The dedication sermon was preached by a Dr. Heller. He began with Mah Tovu.  The article states that; "He briefly sketched the history of the Jewish synagogue, which was successively tent, temple and house, as represented by the tabernacle in the wilderness, the Temple on Moriah and the synagogue of the middle ages the highest, a God-home and a heart-home, in which all the loftiest instincts of man's likeness to God finds satisfying exercise. The eloquent rabbi closed with a prayer that the newly consecrated synagogue might become a God-home dedicated not by any breath of mouth or act of hand, but made holy by the impressive associations and sacred rites of many a memorable hour."

 

In 3 years, our teachings have literally reached the ends of the earth. We have live webcasts, podcasts, an email list with many members (knowledgeable ones - educated laity, biblical scholars, Jews and non-Jews who love God, Israel and Torah), a newly formed social network (www.rootsoffaith.net) that allows people to meet and make new friends with common interests, and over the past couple of weeks we have added video teaching for those who are not able to attend in person.

 

I want to honor the prayers of those who went before me in the building and dedication of Temple Sinai. I want to take their vision and share it with the world. I want others to be a part of a noble effort to share Biblical truth with everyone.

 

So tonight, I wanted to take some time to reflect on the blessings that have come our way over the past three years. First, I have met some of the most incredible people during this time. We have become the best of friends. I look forward every week to seeing this incredible group of people. We have had some good memories, celebrated ancient Hebrew festivals, camped out together, traveled together, argued and debated, but through it all we have become a family! We love and trust one another. They are the most talented and dedicated group that I have been around and I am excited about what is to come for all of us. With our new Synagogue Without Walls, we are able to open our doors to old friends and new and provide a place of meeting for anyone that believes in the one God of Israel and seeks to live according to the principles of the Hebrew Bible.

 

I look forward to what is coming and hope you will be a part of bringing this vision to fruition and in advancing Abrahamic Faith.

 

Shalom and God Bless you all, Ross

 

 

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com.



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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Fri Dec  5 10:48:37 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:48:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo
In-Reply-To: <c72.43d55c25.366a65e2@aol.com>
References: <c72.43d55c25.366a65e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FB9717ED-4F0B-41E7-A4DB-FBBDF79FB034@earthlink.net>

I did not see a photo. Was it attached?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2008, at 6:09 AM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote:

> I love this picture...reminded me immediately of Jeremiah 9:2.
>
> Ross K. Nichols
> www.RootsofFaith.org
>
>
>
>
> Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite  
> sites in one place. Try it now.
> _______________________________________________
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Fri Dec  5 10:57:58 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:57:58 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo
In-Reply-To: <FB9717ED-4F0B-41E7-A4DB-FBBDF79FB034@earthlink.net>
References: <c72.43d55c25.366a65e2@aol.com>
	<FB9717ED-4F0B-41E7-A4DB-FBBDF79FB034@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <015501c956fa$a2890030$e79b0090$@com>

Hi James, no it was in the text. Here it is attached.

 

patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:49 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo

 

I did not see a photo. Was it attached?

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 5, 2008, at 6:09 AM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote:

I love this picture...reminded me immediately of Jeremiah 9:2.

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org






  _____  


Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in
one place. Try
<http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000
010>  it now.

_______________________________________________

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Dec  5 11:20:41 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:20:41 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo
In-Reply-To: <015501c956fa$a2890030$e79b0090$@com>
References: <c72.43d55c25.366a65e2@aol.com><FB9717ED-4F0B-41E7-A4DB-FBBDF79FB034@earthlink.net>
	<015501c956fa$a2890030$e79b0090$@com>
Message-ID: <120520081720.3626.493962E90002BCF300000E2A22230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Patty,

Sorry Carin and I weren't able to come out and play last night, we were taking a little personal time before we head out for the Land.  Was there something that we needed to talk about?

I looked at the CD cover pics, I like the theme, I like the scroll and I like the zodiac kinda thing with the tribe symbols.  I also like the idea of getting folks to contribute to the design, it will make the album more of a group effort.  Are you thinking that the album name will be Return to Zion?

I also checked out your page, man you've been busy!  I couldn't find the photo essay though.

We're ready to get on the plane!

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 


Hi James, no it was in the text. Here it is attached.
 
patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:49 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo
 
I did not see a photo. Was it attached?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2008, at 6:09 AM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote:
I love this picture...reminded me immediately of Jeremiah 9:2.
 
Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org






Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
_______________________________________________
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From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Dec  5 11:21:51 2008
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:21:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: more
Message-ID: <489846.71888.qm@web82506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My daughter, Adrienne who lives in NC just sent me this. I think she?has been reading her copy of RAF. It is truly amazing!
?
Shabbat Shalom to everyone including those who are in our real homeland.
?
Kind regards,
?
Helen

--- On Fri, 12/5/08, Adrienne Fiedler <ncbeachglass at earthlink.net> wrote:

From: Adrienne Fiedler <ncbeachglass at earthlink.net>
Subject: more
To: "Helen Lusk" <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 10:06 AM




?

The Scots
??????????? The Scots, from whom Scotland and its people derive their modern name, were relatively late arrivals in the British Isles, coming about A.D. 500, or nearly a thousand years after the latest of the other arrivals. These Scots, who called themselves Albanians, settled in the western part of the country and established a kingdom called Albania. The name Scotland itself did not appear until the union of Albania and Caledonia over 300 years later. Of the origin of these Scots or Albanians there can be no doubt whatever, as it is stated in the official records of the Scottish nation. In the year 1320 King Robert the Bruce received a communication from Pope John XXII demanding Scotland?s submission to the rule of King Edward II of England. The Scottish Parliament refused and King Robert and the nobles of Scotland issued a signed reply. In this letter, called ?the Scottish Declaration Of Independence,? the origin and history of the
 Scots is given. 
??????????? This ancient document is still in existence in the Register House at Edinburgh, and a translation of part of it appeared in ?Scot?s Magazine? of April, 1934:
??????????? ?We know, Most Holy Father and Lord, and from the chronicles and books of the ancients gather, that among other illustrious nations, ours, to wit the nation of the Scots, has been distinguished by many honors; which passing from the greater Scythia through the Mediterranean Sea and Pillars of Hercules, and sojourning in Spain among the most savage tribes through a long course of time could nowhere be subjugated by any people however barbarous; and coming thence one thousand two hundred years after the outgoing of the people of Israel, they, by many victories and infinite toil, acquired for themselves the possessions in the West which they now hold.?
??????????? Let us read that statement again, and note that it is an official statement of the Scottish Parliament signed by King Robert and all the nobles of Scotland on April 6th, A.D. 1320. It states that the Scots came from Scythia ? 1200 years AFTER THE OUTGOING OF THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. Now the outgoing of the people of Israel (that is, the Assyrian conquest of Israel and the deportation of the Israel people from Palestine to Assyria and Media) occurred about 721 B.C., and this date IS just 1200 years before the Scots arrived in Scotland. The significance of this date is that ONLY an Israel people would DATE THEIR MOVEMENTS and EVENTS from the time of Israel?s deportation. We know that this was a custom of the dispersed Israelites, for Hebrew tombstones found in the Crimea are all dated FROM that event also. Thus, the statement quoted above is in itself proof that the Scots were Israelites. 
??????????? Note something else here. The Scottish Declaration states that the Scots came from Scythia. The importance of this lies in the fact that the Israelites regained their freedom after a short time in captivity, and migrated northward from Assyria and Media into SCYTHIA, where part of them settled in two districts to which they gave the names Albania and Iberia. This word, Iberia, is identical with the ancient name of Spain, where the Scots lived after leaving Scythia, and is simply the Latin form of ?Heberland? or the Land of the Hebrews. 
??????????? It is certain that the Scots came from Scythia bearing the name ?Albanian,? and that a section of them settled in Ireland calling themselves ?Iber? Scots. It is obvious that they came from the two districts of Scythia called Albania and Iberia, and therefore must be the descendants of the Israelites who settled in these two districts after their release or ?outgoing? from the Assyrian captivity.
?
Adrienne Fiedler
ncbeachglass at earthlink.net
Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.
?
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Fri Dec  5 11:21:49 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:21:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo
In-Reply-To: <120520081720.3626.493962E90002BCF300000E2A22230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <c72.43d55c25.366a65e2@aol.com><FB9717ED-4F0B-41E7-A4DB-FBBDF79FB034@earthlink.net>	<015501c956fa$a2890030$e79b0090$@com>
	<120520081720.3626.493962E90002BCF300000E2A22230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <017001c956fd$f6940460$e3bc0d20$@com>

Hey John and Carin,

 

Have a blessed trip and please write when you can!

 

Love,

patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:21 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo

 

Hey Patty,

 

Sorry Carin and I weren't able to come out and play last night, we were taking a little personal time before we head out for the Land.  Was there something that we needed to talk about?

 

I looked at the CD cover pics, I like the theme, I like the scroll and I like the zodiac kinda thing with the tribe symbols.  I also like the idea of getting folks to contribute to the design, it will make the album more of a group effort.  Are you thinking that the album name will be Return to Zion?

 

I also checked out your page, man you've been busy!  I couldn't find the photo essay though.

 

We're ready to get on the plane!

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 

Hi James, no it was in the text. Here it is attached.

 

patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:49 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Touching Photo

 

I did not see a photo. Was it attached?

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 5, 2008, at 6:09 AM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote:

I love this picture...reminded me immediately of Jeremiah 9:2.

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 

 


  _____  


Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try <http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010>  it now.

_______________________________________________

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From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 12:23:15 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:23:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Another Station
Message-ID: <61593.55572.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Another station playing my new CD. Go here to see: http://fm1019messianic.com/default.aspx 
and scroll down on the bottom left hand side to Tracy Osborne Music. Also playing on www.inspiredfaith.org .
And we're gonna make another one, together!!

Praise HaShem,
Tracy


      
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 13:50:36 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:50:36 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Another Station
In-Reply-To: <61593.55572.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <61593.55572.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <855590370812051150h3eb06bfbr4c3766e458732f1c@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations Tracy!   Hey everyone - if you haven't heard Tracy's CD yet,
you are REALLY missing something.  It is truly awesome; with a GREAT
cover....which *may be *a beautiful poster by itself; right, Tracy?  ;-)

 It's ironic that Patty was just mentioning the Mt Zion Hotel.  Tracy and I
were just there 3 weeks ago!

  Shabbat Shalom,
          Hanoch

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>wrote:

>  Another station playing my new CD. Go here to see:
> http://fm1019messianic.com/default.aspx
> and scroll down on the bottom left hand side to Tracy Osborne Music. Also
> playing on www.inspiredfaith.org .
> And we're gonna make another one, together!!
>
> Praise HaShem,
> Tracy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Fri Dec  5 14:50:26 2008
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:50:26 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Another Station
In-Reply-To: <61593.55572.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <61593.55572.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006601c9571b$1b426780$0400a8c0@marvin>

Tracy,

 

Just log on to Inspired faith and with in just a few minutes time heard the
"I Love you Abba", good worship song as we X Pentecostals use to say.  While
trying to get logged in and registered so I could request another guess what
they played "Return sons of Joseph"  Sounds good so far, guess I will have
to get one.   

 

Let me tell you something that happened the other day.    I was working with
my son in-law helping him with some work on his house. A news item came on
the radio about missiles launched into Israel and Josh asked the question,
"Why does the world hate the Jews so much, they are people, human just like
the rest of us?"    Josh is not a religious person, with not much if any
religious background, but exposed and infected with Christian dogma, like
most people raised in America he believes in Jesus that he was borne of a
virgin and is the son of God if not god come down in the flesh.

 

At any rate, Josh needed a quick overview of the biblical story of how God
chose the Jewish people.  So I started in Genesis right about the time Adam
and Eve got kicked out of the Garden and begin to tell him the bible story.
Josh was listening, riveted to the story.  This has only happened a couple
of times in the last 8 years were I knew God had opened his heart and ears
and the ground was ready for planting. So I begin to plant and sow the seed.

 

About the time I got to God choosing Abraham and his children in the story,
Josh remarked how his family name Weese had been changed and shortened when
his great grand parents came here from Germany and he believed he had Jewish
ancestors.  Here is were the story takes a turn. We put our tools down and
walked out side for a short break. While sitting on the steps side by side I
continued the story of God choosing Abraham and just like a child hearing a
new tale for the first time, he would ask for the next detail in the story.
What happened, did Abraham kill his son?  Why did Joseph's brothers put him
in the pit? Did he get out? What did they tell their daddy(Jacob) about what
happened to Joseph?

 

When we got to the story of Joseph being in charge in Egypt and the brothers
coming to receive food from him,  things got  even more interesting. As you
know Joseph recognized his brothers, but the brothers did not know that this
ruler of Egypt was their own little brother. They got their food and left
and come to find out they even had there money in the top of their sacks.
They then had to return for more food and when we got to the point of Joseph
beginning to weep and he could no longer hide himself from his brothers.....
My spirit broke and my voice cracked and I begin to cry as I told the story.
Josh had to turn around to his right to see with his eyes what his ears were
hearing. He looked at me with tears running down my face and I told him this
is what is getting ready to happen in the world, Israel who is represented
by Joseph is getting ready to reveal himself to his brothers, represented by
the Jews.  God is getting ready to restore the family and the whole world is
getting ready to witness the family reunion. The door of opportunity then
slammed shut. At the snap of your fingers he was tune out and turned off.
Hashem said shut up Marvin!

 

I believe we are living in interesting times.  

 

Shalom,

Marvin

 

 

 

 

 From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 1:23 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Another Station

 

Another station playing my new CD. Go here to see:
http://fm1019messianic.com/default.aspx 

and scroll down on the bottom left hand side to Tracy Osborne Music. Also
playing on www.inspiredfaith.org .

And we're gonna make another one, together!!

 

Praise HaShem,

Tracy

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 17:17:26 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 15:17:26 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting article
Message-ID: <855590370812061517j7a66f10u8a861c7adc4ef3e2@mail.gmail.com>

Gene Test Shows Spain's Jewish and Muslim Mix
By NICHOLAS WADE<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/w/nicholas_wade/index.html?inline=nyt-per>
Published: December 4, 2008
The genetic signatures of people in Spain and
Portugal<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/portugal/index.html?inline=nyt-geo>provide
new and explicit evidence of the mass conversions of Sephardic Jews
and Muslims to Catholicism in the 15th and 16th centuries after Christian
armies wrested Spain back from Muslim control, a team of geneticists
reports.

Twenty percent of the population of the Iberian Peninsula has Sephardic
Jewish ancestry and 11 percent have DNA reflecting Moorish ancestors, the
geneticists have found. Historians have debated how many Jews converted and
how many chose exile. "One wing grossly underestimates the number of
conversions," said Jane S. Gerber, an expert on Sephardic history at the City
University of New
York<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/city_university_of_new_york/index.html?inline=nyt-org>.

The finding bears on two different views of Spanish history, said Jonathan
S. Ray, a professor of Jewish studies at Georgetown
University<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/g/georgetown_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org>.
One, proposed by the 20th-century historian Claudio S?nchez-Albornoz, holds
that Spanish civilization is Catholic and other influences are foreign; the
other sees Spain as having been enriched by drawing from all three of its
historical cultures, Catholic, Jewish and Muslim.
The study, based on an analysis of Y chromosomes, was conducted by
biologists led by Mark A. Jobling of the University of Leicester in England
and Francesc Calafell of the Pompeu Fabra University in Barcelona. They
developed a Y chromosome signature for Sephardic men by studying Sephardic
Jewish communities in places where Jews migrated after being expelled from
Spain in 1492 to 1496. They also characterized the Y chromosomes of the Arab
and Berber army that invaded Spain in A.D. 711 from data on people living in
Morocco and Western Sahara.
After a period of forbearance under the Arab Umayyad dynasty, Spain entered
a period of religious intolerance, with its Muslim Berber dynasties forcing
Christians and Jews to convert to Islam, and the victorious Christians then
expelling Jews and Muslims or forcing them to convert. The new genetic
study, reported online on Thursday in the American Journal of Human
Genetics, indicates there was a high level of conversion among Jews.
Because most of the Y chromosome remains unchanged from father to son, the
proportions of Sephardic and Moorish ancestry detected in the present
population are probably the same as those just after the 1492 expulsions. A
high proportion of people with Sephardic ancestry was to be expected, Dr.
Ray said. "Jews formed a very large part of the urban population up until
the great conversions," he said.
Dr. Ray raised the question of what the DNA evidence might mean personally.
"If four generations on I have no knowledge of my genetic past, how does
that affect my understanding of my own religious association?"
The issue is one that has confronted Dr. Calafell, an author of the study.
His own Y chromosome may be of Sephardic ancestry ? the test is not
definitive for individuals ? and his surname is from a town in Catalonia;
Jews undergoing conversion often took surnames from place names. But he does
not regard his Y chromosome as a strong link to the Sephardic heritage.
Assuming no in-breeding, he would have had more than one million living
ancestors in A.D. 1500. "My full ancestry is made of many different
individuals, and my Y chromosome tells me just about one of them," he said.
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 17:29:50 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 15:29:50 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Those Angry Youth"
Message-ID: <855590370812061529s29a9a59eh76fdbcbd1b3da21a@mail.gmail.com>

THOSE ANGRY YOUTH %Date%
by by from "A Jerusalem Voice" - Moshe Kempinski

(IsraelNN.com)

When the news first broke of the police expulsion of the residents of the
Peace House I was overwhelmed by a wave of anger pain and disgust. Memories
of facing the horsemen at the street corner demonstrations during the early
Oslo years, , standing against the cold lifeless faces of the soldiers in
Kfar Maimon, and driving helplessly  along the roads by the Gaza strip
trying to find a way in , all came up like poisonous bile. Memories of the
water cannons, the grey shirted Yassam thugs and the brutal forces at Amona
all chilled my heart again  .

Nothing seems to have changed and nothing seems to have been learnt. Just
like in Amona the possibility of an agreed upon solution was discarded in

No...the powers of evil were not the terrorists holding Gilad Shalit. It
wasn't the murderers lobbing death missiles into Sederot. It wasn't even
radical Islam which murdered so many good souls  just this  last week.

 It was a stand off against young ideological and faithful Jews living in a
house that they legally purchased.

Yet the expulsion on Thursday was not the worst of the crime . The media
defamation and hateful lies regarding the settlers of this house and of all
the Biblical heartland  was horrific. Reports were repeated about a soldier
blinded by acid poured on him. Just as in Gush Katif this news story proved
to be false. Suddenly young religious Zionist youth were all branded as
homeless toughs with no controls. The young families in the Peace House
represented the greatest threat to Israeli democracy since the Altalena.
Reshet Bet news correspondents described the people demonstrating in the
street corners as "thrill seekers". Psychologists and pundits wondered on
radio talk shows " why these youth were so angry."

Lets see if I can help.

You arrested them as they sat in intersections in a cry of anguish after
terrorist murderers.

You threw 14 and 15 year old kids into jail for long periods of time as you
were releasing terrorists murderers as a "gesture"

You ran over them with your horses and you attacked them with water cannons

You brutalized them with hooked batons and heavy clubs in Amona.

You threw them out of their homes

You blamed them for everything from Rabin's murder to the spread of world
wide Islamic terror.

You called them thugs and wild weeds and yet let them die for your ill
planned wars in Lebanon.

You threw stun grenades and tear gas canisters at them when you wanted to
evict them AGAIN from a home they purchased

And you wonder why they are angry and mistrustful of you?
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 18:44:21 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 16:44:21 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Analysis by Rav Lazer Brody (sent by Hanoch)
Message-ID: <855590370812061644x3188c89ay8921825b9a365d95@mail.gmail.com>

  Sunday, 07 December 2008 Emuna News Analysis: Two
Wrongs<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/12/emuna-news-analysis-two-wrongs.html>

*Two wrongs*: The Israeli Government under the Kadima-Labor leadership of
Olmert, Livni, & Barak have been systematically using the Army and the media
to dehumanize the
settlers<http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1043794.html>of Judea and
Samaria, as well as illegally evicting Jews from their homes in
the Hevron area. This is dead wrong.

Yet, when a settler curses another Jew or assaults him in any way, this is
dead wrong too.

If one desires to fight the corrupt government who is using the army and the
Uncle-Tom leftist media in their pre-election spin to deligitimize the
faithful of Israel, then one should either take them to court, or even
better, start praying. When a settler lifts a finger against policemen or
soldiers - no matter how brutal the latter is behaving - he's playing right
into the slimey hands of the anti-emuna politicians.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

*The cruel and the kind*: This past Shabbat, the residents of Ashkelon had
their *Seuda Shlishit* (3rd festive meal of the Shabbat) in bomb
shelters<http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3634148,00.html>.
Barak of course has done nothing against the Hamas and Jihad that have made
a joke of the silly ceasefire, but yet shows big muscle against Jewish
settlers.  Barak, the morally corrupt self-serving Defense Minister is
merely trying to save his floundering party and dying political career. Our
sages described the anti-emuna Barak to the letter (see Yalkut Shimoni,
Shmuel I:15, 121): "*He who is kind to the cruel ends up being cruel to the
kind*." Mister Barak has no answer to the constant threat of Missiles from
Hamastan, and has been unable to bring Gilad Shalit home. Yet, he does
commando missions against women and children, illegally evicting
them<http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3631464,00.html>from
their homes in the middle of the night. The same Barak, who
unilaterally pulled the IDF out of South Lebanon seven years ago, thereby
putting Hizbolla on Israel's Northern border and destroying whatever was
left of IDF deterrent power, ran on an anti-Orthodox hate platform of a secular
revolution<http://edition.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/08/20/mideast/index.html>.
If it were up to him, he'd strip Israel of anything Jewish. That's why he
and his friends in Kadima have no qualms in surrendering everything that's
holy to us, such as the Machpelah Cave in Hevron, Joseph's Grave in Shechem,
and even East Jerusalem where out holy Western Wall is located, G-d forbid.

*Bibi Netanyahu*:  Bibi wants to be elected. The truth is that he is no
different from Livni or Barak. He earned cheap popularity by
driving families blessed with many children into poverty when he cancelled
income subsidies <http://www.forward.com/articles/7739/> for large families,
a move that was a pointed poison arrow against the Orthodox and Sephardi
communities. Bibi signed away Hevron in the Wye
agreement<http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/17590/>,
and expressed readiness in surrendering the Golan. Although we here at Emuna
News despise politics and refuse to endorse any Israeli politician, there
are three men of personal integrity and Jewish national ideals vying for
realistic places in the Likud party -  Moshe
Feiglin<http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3629122,00.html>,
Benny Begin <http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1033522.html>, and Moshe
(Boogie) Yaalon<http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1226404769376&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull>.
Bibi doesn't want a too-Jewish or too-right Likud, so he's covertly fighting
against all three. Bibi is just another puppet that will do Washington's
bidding, no better for Israel than Livni or Barak.

It's time for teshuva.
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 19:07:10 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 17:07:10 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] A song with a MESSAGE
Message-ID: <855590370812061707x3e655b2fue543628f6b21eedd@mail.gmail.com>

Shavua tov...you may not enjoy Dov Shurin as much as I do, but listen to the
MESSAGE....

                                     Click here: YouTube - Dov Shurin - We
Will Not Be Uprooted!!!<http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_q6mkqhrB2w&feature=related>
               Hanoch
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 20:33:15 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:33:15 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Some great advice
Message-ID: <855590370812061833r2c362a7dx7c14f6ab17b3518c@mail.gmail.com>

Dawn Thoughts
By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (c) 2008 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All
rights reserved.     There is a time and a purpose for all things under
Heaven. Life is an ever-flowing cycle of movement. We tend to forget this.
Whatever goes up must come down. This is only natural. Heaven ordains all
things, be they great or small.

Nothing happens by chance. Evil too exists for a purpose and will only
perform that which it is ordained to do. Evil can nothing more than what
Heaven ordains. Thus those who fear evil miss the point. Evil is but a tool
in the Higher Hand. One should instead fear the Hand and the even Greater
Mind that wields it.

There is nothing other than the One. All came forth from the One and all
will return to it. In the middle all is still connected to and controlled by
the One. There is no other, however appearances may be.

Yes, the great cycle of life is in movement. That which was once up will
soon topple down. That which was down will again ascend to the heights of
power. This is the Divine Way. No one can prevent it.

One may pray as one wishes. Yet, one's prayers should always be that the
Will of Heaven be accomplished. Anyone praying for their own desires that
may contradict the Way of Heaven should know that such prayers will not be
answered in the affirmative.

Suffering is as much a part of life as is enjoyment. We choose what it is we
enjoy and often we choose how it is we will suffer.

That which is passing must be allowed to pass. Those who wish to cling to
the dying past will die along with that past. This is not the Will of
Heaven. Torah teaches us to choose life, therefore we must embrace only that
which brings us life eternal.

We must not allow ourselves to be so foolish as to confuse the life of the
moment for the life eternal. They are not the same and often they are
contradictory.

One cannot have everything the way one wants, regardless of what one
believes about Heaven or proclaims in the Name of G-d.

We are now in a period of great changes. The wise who see the times will
recognize this and let loose all that which is dying and instead embrace
that which is the new. Yet, beware, not all that is new brings life. There
is that in both the old and new that bring both life and death. We must
embrace life in all its forms and detach from death in all its forms; for
death is destined to pass, as is the natural order of things as ordained by
the Way of Heaven.

Do not be confused. Do not allow your many thoughts to lead you astray. Do
not allow the desires of your hearts to keep you attached to the old and
dying.

In order to see clearly, you will have to close your eyes. In order to hear
the truth you will have to stop listening to others who hear not the still
Inner Voice. In order to know in your heart what is right, you will have to
stop being swayed by the feelings of attachment.

You will know what is right and true when you are clam, balanced and at
peace. When your mind and heart are still, only then will you see the truth
within. But beware; you may not like what you see. Yet, see, you will! Do
not deny what you will learn to be true. Accept it, however hard, embrace it
and honor it. In this way you honor Heaven and serve G-d.

Do what you know you must. Do not allow your fears to lead you to denial.
This is the path of loss, suffering and eventual death. This is a path that
many will choose and all who do so are foolish.

Live life! Cast away the old with all its burdens and pressure. Embrace the
new. Move along with it. Flow along the currents of life. Allow them to take
you to the place where the earth meets the sky, to the place where the
Heavenly Temple will again appear in our space.

No, the world is not coming to an end. All that is ending is the current
chapter. Chapters always end in a crescendo of movement. The new chapter is
beginning. New chapters always begin softly and without too much fanfare.
This is the Way of things. So, let it be.

-------------------------------------------------------

Shalom, Ariel Bar Tzadok
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From dhcole1 at cox.net  Sat Dec  6 21:00:39 2008
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 21:00:39 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A song with a MESSAGE
References: <855590370812061707x3e655b2fue543628f6b21eedd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01c95817$fc73f640$6a00a8c0@greenuptxoxqls>

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Hanoch Young 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 7:07 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] A song with a MESSAGE


  Shavua tov...you may not enjoy Dov Shurin as much as I do, but listen to the MESSAGE....

                                       Click here: YouTube - Dov Shurin - We Will Not Be Uprooted!!!
                 Hanoch


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG. 
  Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.14/1832 - Release Date: 12/5/2008 9:57 AM
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Dec  6 16:57:22 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 22:57:22 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Here we go!
Message-ID: <59366250-1228604310-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-73766817-@bxe010.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>


Hey all,

Just a quick progress note.  We're at the gate in Atlanta waiting to board the flight to Paris leaving in about an hour.  

All is well.

My Blackberry most likely won't function when we leave the states so we'll holler at y'all when I can get on the internet again.

Love y'all.

Shalom.

JC
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T


From dtyler at aac-usa.com  Sat Dec  6 17:11:14 2008
From: dtyler at aac-usa.com (David Tyler)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:11:14 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Here we go!
In-Reply-To: <59366250-1228604310-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-73766817-@bxe010.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <59366250-1228604310-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-73766817-@bxe010.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <000901c957f7$f27d8220$d7788660$@com>

Godspeed John and Carin!

The studio is being upgraded as we speak and we look forward to your time
here!

Dave and Patty


-----Original Message-----
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net [mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net] 
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 5:57 PM
To: Joe Carlson; MISSY BRAGER; RO AND MIKE BARONE; Pam Walton; Tap Palmer;
Dialogue; Kim Molnar (Alvarado); Tammy Michael; lisa at ildpowermcom; Jack;
Beth Padgett; Betty Given; John Fralick; David Tyler; Pam and Joe Malara;
Jaye Gerding; Rick and Sue Hill; Temple Sinai; David Tyler
Cc: John Carlson
Subject: Here we go!


Hey all,

Just a quick progress note.  We're at the gate in Atlanta waiting to board
the flight to Paris leaving in about an hour.  

All is well.

My Blackberry most likely won't function when we leave the states so we'll
holler at y'all when I can get on the internet again.

Love y'all.

Shalom.

JC
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sat Dec  6 17:14:53 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:14:53 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Here we go!
In-Reply-To: <59366250-1228604310-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-73766817-@bxe010.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <59366250-1228604310-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-73766817-@bxe010.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <01d001c957f8$74a228a0$5de679e0$@com>

Hey - wait for me!!!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net [mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net] 
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 5:57 PM
To: Joe Carlson; MISSY BRAGER; RO AND MIKE BARONE; Pam Walton; Tap Palmer;
Dialogue; Kim Molnar (Alvarado); Tammy Michael; lisa at ildpowermcom; Jack;
Beth Padgett; Betty Given; John Fralick; David Tyler; Pam and Joe Malara;
Jaye Gerding; Rick and Sue Hill; Temple Sinai; David Tyler
Cc: John Carlson
Subject: Here we go!


Hey all,

Just a quick progress note.  We're at the gate in Atlanta waiting to board
the flight to Paris leaving in about an hour.  

All is well.

My Blackberry most likely won't function when we leave the states so we'll
holler at y'all when I can get on the internet again.

Love y'all.

Shalom.

JC
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 18:11:47 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 16:11:47 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel analysis, by Rav Lazer Brody (sent by Hanoch)
Message-ID: <855590370812061611s2fde1663i99d06e0e4051ad53@mail.gmail.com>

Sunday, 07 December 2008 Emuna News Analysis: Two
Wrongs<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/12/emuna-news-analysis-two-wrongs.html>

*Two wrongs*: The Israeli Government under the Kadima-Labor leadership of
Olmert, Livni, & Barak have been systematically using the Army and the media
to dehumanize the
settlers<http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1043794.html>of Judea and
Samaria, as well as illegally evicting Jews from their homes in
the Hevron area. This is dead wrong.

Yet, when a settler curses another Jew or assaults him in any way, this is
dead wrong too.

If one desires to fight the corrupt government who is using the army and the
Uncle-Tom leftist media in their pre-election spin to deligitimize the
faithful of Israel, then one should either take them to court, or even
better, start praying. When a settler lifts a finger against policemen or
soldiers - no matter how brutal the latter is behaving - he's playing right
into the slimey hands of the anti-emuna politicians.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

*The cruel and the kind*: This past Shabbat, the residents of Ashkelon had
their *Seuda Shlishit* (3rd festive meal of the Shabbat) in bomb
shelters<http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3634148,00.html>.
Barak of course has done nothing against the Hamas and Jihad that have made
a joke of the silly ceasefire, but yet shows big muscle against Jewish
settlers.  Barak, the morally corrupt self-serving Defense Minister is
merely trying to save his floundering party and dying political career. Our
sages described the anti-emuna Barak to the letter (see Yalkut Shimoni,
Shmuel I:15, 121): "*He who is kind to the cruel ends up being cruel to the
kind*." Mister Barak has no answer to the constant threat of Missiles from
Hamastan, and has been unable to bring Gilad Shalit home. Yet, he does
commando missions against women and children, illegally evicting
them<http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3631464,00.html>from
their homes in the middle of the night. The same Barak, who
unilaterally pulled the IDF out of South Lebanon seven years ago, thereby
putting Hizbolla on Israel's Northern border and destroying whatever was
left of IDF deterrent power, ran on an anti-Orthodox hate platform of a secular
revolution<http://edition.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/08/20/mideast/index.html>.
If it were up to him, he'd strip Israel of anything Jewish. That's why he
and his friends in Kadima have no qualms in surrendering everything that's
holy to us, such as the Machpelah Cave in Hevron, Joseph's Grave in Shechem,
and even East Jerusalem where out holy Western Wall is located, G-d forbid.

*Bibi Netanyahu*:  Bibi wants to be elected. The truth is that he is no
different from Livni or Barak. He earned cheap popularity by
driving families blessed with many children into poverty when he cancelled
income subsidies <http://www.forward.com/articles/7739/> for large families,
a move that was a pointed poison arrow against the Orthodox and Sephardi
communities. Bibi signed away Hevron in the Wye
agreement<http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/17590/>,
and expressed readiness in surrendering the Golan. Although we here at Emuna
News despise politics and refuse to endorse any Israeli politician, there
are three men of personal integrity and Jewish national ideals vying for
realistic places in the Likud party -  Moshe
Feiglin<http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3629122,00.html>,
Benny Begin <http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1033522.html>, and Moshe
(Boogie) Yaalon<http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1226404769376&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull>.
Bibi doesn't want a too-Jewish or too-right Likud, so he's covertly fighting
against all three. Bibi is just another puppet that will do Washington's
bidding, no better for Israel than Livni or Barak.

It's time for teshuva.
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From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sat Dec  6 19:33:04 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 12:03:04 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Analysis by Rav Lazer Brody (sent by Hanoch)
In-Reply-To: <855590370812061644x3188c89ay8921825b9a365d95@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812061644x3188c89ay8921825b9a365d95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <493B27D0.5000102@eftel.net.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Dec  7 06:05:52 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 22:05:52 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] A song with a MESSAGE]
Message-ID: <493BBC20.1000109@westnet.com.au>

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From: "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] A song with a MESSAGE
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 17:07:10 -0800
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Dec  7 06:12:18 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 22:12:18 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] A German's view on Islam.
Message-ID: <493BBDA2.1060402@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Dec  7 06:22:59 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 22:22:59 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Israel analysis, by Rav Lazer Brody (sent by Hanoch)]
Message-ID: <493BC023.10609@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: [Dialogue] Israel analysis, by Rav Lazer Brody (sent by Hanoch)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 16:11:47 -0800
Size: 13793
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20081207/bc0875c4/attachment.eml 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Dec  7 10:00:16 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:00:16 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A German's view on Islam.
In-Reply-To: <493BBDA2.1060402@westnet.com.au>
References: <493BBDA2.1060402@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS366E505F8D5362A84734FBAFC0@phx.gbl>

Have seen this before and think it well-worth passing on again.  The problem is, WHAT CAN WE DO?  They are everywhere.  I was in a rather small, rural town in GA the other day and saw a big brick building on one of its downtown street corners with a large sign reading:  Mulsim Recreation Center.  That seemed so entirely incongruous, and affected me deeply.  Exactly WHAT can be done to counter this religion's spread?

Thanks, Joe,

Pat


From: Joe Indomenico 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:12 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] A German's view on Islam.


Subject:  A German's View on Islam 
This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read.  His references to past history are accurate and clear.  Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read.  The author of this email is said to be Dr. Emanuel Tanay, a well known and well respected psychiatrist.



A German's View on Islam 
A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates.  When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. 'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen.  Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come.  My family lost everything.  I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.  Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant.  It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.  It is the fanatics who march.  It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave.  It is the fanatics, who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque.

It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals.  It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers. 
The hard quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous. 
Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people.  The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people. 
The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist.  Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery.  Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our posers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.
As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on!  Let us hope that thousands, worldwide, read this and think about it, and send it on before it's too late. 

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From stephen at 777jesusislord.com  Sun Dec  7 12:35:38 2008
From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:35:38 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] question comment dialogue
References: <493C0F25.B0656.101D@pop.directnic.com>
Message-ID: <A24EC91BD2624A9588FB51EF54369811@SEWVAC011>

In looking at the query concerning the spread of Islam in
the USA..... does anyone think this could actually be part
of G-d's plan to encourage the children of Israel to
come home to Jerusalem?  Home to Israel.  And, or
don't the actions of the citizens of the USA, of which
I am a citizen --- do our collective sins open the door
for this spititual deception to have more room to
operate so freely, with the cultural police telling us we
can not talk bad about Islam :)...

Re my first question: If the L-rd makes it less comfortable
for the children who are called back to Israel... are they
more likely to consider the move.  The US even with all
it's current problems is still somewhat of a cushy place
to live.

I DID forward on the info from Tanay's email to
some of my friends.  Excellent observation..  Actually,
brilliant in my opinion.

Stephen
www.777jesusislord.com


Tikkun  Tzedek
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14


> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: A German's view on Islam. (Pat Robbins)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:00:16 -0500
> From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A German's view on Islam.
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <BLU125-DS366E505F8D5362A84734FBAFC0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Have seen this before and think it well-worth passing on again.  The 
> problem is, WHAT CAN WE DO?  They are everywhere.  I was in a rather 
> small, rural town in GA the other day and saw a big brick building on one 
> of its downtown street corners with a large sign reading:  Mulsim 
> Recreation Center.  That seemed so entirely incongruous, and affected me 
> deeply.  Exactly WHAT can be done to counter this religion's spread?
>
> Thanks, Joe,
>
> Pat
>
>
> From: Joe Indomenico
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:12 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] A German's view on Islam.
>
>
> Subject:  A German's View on Islam
> This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I 
> have ever read.  His references to past history are accurate and clear. 
> Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read.  The author of this 
> email is said to be Dr. Emanuel Tanay, a well known and well respected 
> psychiatrist.
>
>
>
> A German's View on Islam
> A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a 
> number of large industries and estates.  When asked how many German people 
> were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward 
> fanaticism. 'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed 
> the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one 
> of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the 
> majority just sat back and let it all happen.  Then, before we knew it, 
> they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. 
> My family lost everything.  I ended up in a concentration camp and the 
> Allies destroyed my factories.'
>
> We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is 
> the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to 
> live in peace.  Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is 
> entirely irrelevant.  It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel 
> better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging 
> across the globe in the name of Islam.
> The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.  It is 
> the fanatics who march.  It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 
> shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter 
> Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over 
> the entire continent in an Islamic wave.  It is the fanatics, who bomb, 
> behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque 
> after mosque.
>
> It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape 
> victims and homosexuals.  It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill 
> and to become suicide bombers.
> The hard quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent 
> majority,' is cowed and extraneous.
> Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in 
> peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 
> 20 million people.  The peaceful majority were irrelevant.
>
> China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists 
> managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
> The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a 
> warmongering sadist.  Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across 
> South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder 
> of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and 
> bayonet.
>
> And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery.  Could it not 
> be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
> History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our 
> posers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: 
> Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
> Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because 
> like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the 
> fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
>
> Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, 
> Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many 
> others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it 
> was too late.
> As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group 
> that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
> Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this 
> email without sending it on is contributing to the passiveness that allows 
> the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on 
> and on!  Let us hope that thousands, worldwide, read this and think about 
> it, and send it on before it's too late.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20081207/17f0149e/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14
> ***************************************
> 


From dhcole1 at cox.net  Sun Dec  7 12:37:35 2008
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:37:35 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A song with a MESSAGE]
References: <493BBC20.1000109@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <923A719CEFD34C77B567EDA41B6CBE4B@davesbook>

Joe....you took the words right out of my mouth.....
dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Joe Indomenico 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:05 AM
  Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] A song with a MESSAGE]


  Shavua Tov Hanoch,

  like the music, like the lyrics and like the man.

  Zee Zee Top eat your heart out.

  Shalom v'Ahavah
  JOE.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Dec  7 12:47:05 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:47:05 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] question comment dialogue
In-Reply-To: <493C0F25.B0656.101D@pop.directnic.com>
	<A24EC91BD2624A9588FB51EF54369811@SEWVAC011>
References: <493C0F25.B0656.101D@pop.directnic.com>
	<A24EC91BD2624A9588FB51EF54369811@SEWVAC011>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS23D47A7A2A45F514A6F36BAFC0@phx.gbl>

Though it is "cushy" in America, Stephen, there is another consideration in 
leaving, and that is family.  I think I will more than likely do it, but it 
is very difficult to leave your loved ones.   ~Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: "stephen" <stephen at 777jesusislord.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:35 PM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] question comment dialogue

> In looking at the query concerning the spread of Islam in
> the USA..... does anyone think this could actually be part
> of G-d's plan to encourage the children of Israel to
> come home to Jerusalem?  Home to Israel.  And, or
> don't the actions of the citizens of the USA, of which
> I am a citizen --- do our collective sins open the door
> for this spititual deception to have more room to
> operate so freely, with the cultural police telling us we
> can not talk bad about Islam :)...
>
> Re my first question: If the L-rd makes it less comfortable
> for the children who are called back to Israel... are they
> more likely to consider the move.  The US even with all
> it's current problems is still somewhat of a cushy place
> to live.
>
> I DID forward on the info from Tanay's email to
> some of my friends.  Excellent observation..  Actually,
> brilliant in my opinion.
>
> Stephen
> www.777jesusislord.com
>
>
> Tikkun  Tzedek
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:00 PM
> Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14
>
>
>> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
>> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Re: A German's view on Islam. (Pat Robbins)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:00:16 -0500
>> From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A German's view on Islam.
>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>> Message-ID: <BLU125-DS366E505F8D5362A84734FBAFC0 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Have seen this before and think it well-worth passing on again.  The 
>> problem is, WHAT CAN WE DO?  They are everywhere.  I was in a rather 
>> small, rural town in GA the other day and saw a big brick building on one 
>> of its downtown street corners with a large sign reading:  Mulsim 
>> Recreation Center.  That seemed so entirely incongruous, and affected me 
>> deeply.  Exactly WHAT can be done to counter this religion's spread?
>>
>> Thanks, Joe,
>>
>> Pat
>>
>>
>> From: Joe Indomenico
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:12 AM
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject: [Dialogue] A German's view on Islam.
>>
>>
>> Subject:  A German's View on Islam
>> This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I 
>> have ever read.  His references to past history are accurate and clear. 
>> Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read.  The author of 
>> this email is said to be Dr. Emanuel Tanay, a well known and well 
>> respected psychiatrist.
>>
>>
>>
>> A German's View on Islam
>> A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a 
>> number of large industries and estates.  When asked how many German 
>> people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward 
>> fanaticism. 'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed 
>> the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was 
>> one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the 
>> majority just sat back and let it all happen.  Then, before we knew it, 
>> they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had 
>> come. My family lost everything.  I ended up in a concentration camp and 
>> the Allies destroyed my factories.'
>>
>> We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam 
>> is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want 
>> to live in peace.  Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is 
>> entirely irrelevant.  It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel 
>> better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging 
>> across the globe in the name of Islam.
>> The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.  It 
>> is the fanatics who march.  It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 
>> shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter 
>> Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking 
>> over the entire continent in an Islamic wave.  It is the fanatics, who 
>> bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over 
>> mosque after mosque.
>>
>> It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape 
>> victims and homosexuals.  It is the fanatics who teach their young to 
>> kill and to become suicide bombers.
>> The hard quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent 
>> majority,' is cowed and extraneous.
>> Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in 
>> peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of 
>> about 20 million people.  The peaceful majority were irrelevant.
>>
>> China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists 
>> managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
>> The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a 
>> warmongering sadist.  Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across 
>> South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder 
>> of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and 
>> bayonet.
>>
>> And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery.  Could it not 
>> be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
>> History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our 
>> posers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of 
>> points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
>> Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, 
>> because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find 
>> that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
>>
>> Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, 
>> Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many 
>> others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it 
>> was too late.
>> As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only 
>> group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
>> Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this 
>> email without sending it on is contributing to the passiveness that 
>> allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on 
>> and on and on!  Let us hope that thousands, worldwide, read this and 
>> think about it, and send it on before it's too late.
>>
>> Shalom v'Ahavah
>> JOE.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: 
>> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20081207/17f0149e/attachment-0001.html
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14
>> ***************************************
>>
> _______________________________________________
> 


From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Dec  7 12:57:31 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:57:31 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] A song with a MESSAGE]
In-Reply-To: <493BBC20.1000109@westnet.com.au>
References: <493BBC20.1000109@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS39F5CAF7CE8F2FA6A02C9BAFC0@phx.gbl>

PHENOMENAL!!!!!!!!!!!


From: Joe Indomenico 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:05 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] A song with a MESSAGE]


Shavua Tov Hanoch,

like the music, like the lyrics and like the man.

Zee Zee Top eat your heart out.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 13:24:26 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:24:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] A song with a MESSAGE]
References: <493BBC20.1000109@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <529995.45739.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Fabulous!



________________________________
From: Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 7:05:52 AM
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] A song with a MESSAGE]

Shavua Tov Hanoch,

like the music, like the lyrics and like the man.

Zee Zee Top eat your heart out.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.


???????????????????????????????????? Click here: YouTube - Dov Shurin - We Will Not Be Uprooted!!!
?????????????? Hanoch

???????????????????????????????????? Click here: YouTube - Dov Shurin - We Will Not Be Uprooted!!!
?????????????? Hanoch


      
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 14:03:38 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:03:38 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations
Message-ID: <855590370812071203m76d2e391o35a23e551bcf8639@mail.gmail.com>

 *EPHRAMITE EXPECTATIONS* *                                       Hanoch
Young*

*Kislev, 5769*

*YoungBarzel at gmail.com*
**
Introduction
    When I was in Israel recently, it became clear to me that despite the
various efforts to promote dialogue and understanding between the Jewish
people and their Ephramite cousins, there remain huge areas of
misunderstanding, misinformation, rumors and just plain ignorance - on both
sides of the family.  The dissension caused by arrogance, envy, jealousy and
pride that were our downfall over  3,000 years ago still remain; they have
not gone away...

    In addition, there is a total lack of understanding of how Israel (the
modern State of Israel) operates, and how Ephramites might be able to 'fit
back into the family.'  There are actually individual Ephramites that are
attempting to link to secular Israeli political parties to gain influence,
so they can have some *personal *control over the Ephramite immigration
process (which, you should know, does not even exist at this time -
Ephramites cannot readily immigrate to Israel - despite what some people
tell you).

    It is my fervent hope and prayer that sharing this information, and
discussing the issues to be raised in this document will help lead to the
reunification of ALL of the people of Israel; speedily and in OUR days...

*What Ephramites want*
**
*   *Since the 1990's, HaShem (G-d) has been awakening HIS people from the
pagan mind set they were in, and causing them to seek the truth of Torah.
Ephramites want to be listened to, to be taken seriously by their Jewish
cousins.  To share the fact that they *too *are decedents of the Hebrew
people too, not *Jewish, *but just the same - part of the family.  Part of
the promises made to Avraham Avinu (our father Abraham), part of those to
inherit HIS CHOSEN LAND, and those that share in the eternal truth of the
Torah, and of HIS prophets.  Now, unfortunately, not only do most Jewish
people not study (or know, or believe in..) the Tanach enough, but they are
blissfully unaware that Ephraim WILL return, because that is what HaShem has
promised.  And the one true G-d ALWAYS keeps HIS promises.

    However, although the Neviim (prophets) did *indeed *tell us that the
Ten Tribes exiled by the Assyrians would come home, there was neither a
timetable, or a description of how that would actually happen.  Jewish
communities, having suffered tremendously from false messianic movements
over the years, became more focused on living today, as opposed to
speculation on the future eras that the prophets spoke about.  For Jews
living under the heel of Christian or Muslim domination, the idea that those
"Lost Tribes" would come back, via that same Christianity was likely to be
totally inconceivable.  For the Jews of the Venice ghetto, or in Morocco, it
was assumed that the Tribes were somehow living in a far-off land, a
powerful people, waiting for the day to return to their brothers and sisters
of Judah - the Jewish people.  After the age of exploration was over by the
end of the 19th century, it became obvious that it was not the case.

     Some Jewish people don't know what to do with these 'Bnei Ephraim' -
since they don't talk, dress or understand the Torah the exact same way that
*they *do.  They don't fit their paradigm of what the 10 Tribes should be.
They'd rather they either become Bnei Noah, or simply, go away.  The
Ephramites expect to be totally accepted, *immediately  and without question
*- with their self-identification (very recent, in many cases) to serve as
the 'proof.'  After having read the Tanach for a number of years (in
translation, likely to be the King James version, NOT Hebrew), they are
convinced that they totally 'get it,' and have no need of the Rabbinic
sages, or their opinions and insights.  Not everyone, or all the time, but
more then a few, and more then a little of the time.

    And many Ephramites want to go home - to Israel...

*"Christianity with a Kipa"*

     To Jewish eyes, this "movement" (although it's really more of a 'one
from a city, two from a family' type phenomenon) seems to be another
attempt, albeit a more sophisticated one, to missionize to Jews.  After
having been 'loved to death' by Christians for 2,000 years, it is extremely
hard for Jews to distinguish between those that *are *Christians and those
that are Ephramites.  Jewish sovereignty has only been restored within the
last 60 years, and there has indeed been 'much water under the bridge'
during the previous 20 centuries.  We have to come up with a common
'language' to even begin to have discussions between us.  We use the same
terminology, but mean different things by it.

    We both speak of 'Torah' - but mean (at least) two things; we use the
term 'Mashiach' - the 'anointed one,' but have very different expectations
of what their role is.  Ephramites are as suspicious (in some, not all
cases) of Rabbis, while Jews are wondering what the difference is between
'Jesus' (in whose name we suffered pogroms, forced conversions, rapes,
expulsions and attempts to constantly denigrate us) and 'Yeshua.'  It seems
like "Christianity with a Kipa (yarmulke)."

    In an interesting twist of fate, almost all the Ephramites in the USA do
not live, or have never lived near a Jewish community.  So, one the one
hand, that is proof that this 'thing' is driven by HaShem, not the influence
of a local Jewish family, or friend.  However, this also means that never
having encountered (in many cases) a Jewish man or woman - they often base
their opinions on what they've heard or read.  And in some instances, even
what they had heard about Jews in Church; making it one of the last
'doctrines' of Christianity that they are still holding on to.

    Ephramites seem surprised when recognized (and actually welcomed!) by
Jews (in Israel).  They don't realize that their creative approach to tying
and wearing their tzit tzit is easy to notice, especially if they are worn
while their heads are not covered...they insist that they don't need to tie
them like the Jewish people do, since, as I was told, "We're Bnei Ephraim,
we have our own traditions."  Is it truly an Ephramite tradition, or
something *you *made up and began doing a year ago??  And you have to ask
yourself - do you want to 'blend in' with the Jewish people in Israel, or
'stick out?'  There are several potential meanings to the previous sentence,
but I do NOT mean losing your "Ephramite identity," but more so, do you want
to continue to separate yourself from 'Judah' in every single way possible?
If you insist on 'making it up as you go along,' then just be prepared to
admit that  what is behind it - is YOU; and what YOU think is right.  What
about that "Laws of Man" thing?

    *Judah does not control The Land*
**
    It is not the Biblical people of Judah stepping out of the pages of the
Tanach that have rebuilt Israel.  It is the modern, Jewish people, warts and
all.  Largely secularized in Israel, it is the Hellenists, the Erev Rav (the
'mixed multitudes' ) that control the State.  They are NOT all Bible
believers, and in fact, there are more then a few people who view Israel
from a totally secular lenses, being personally "anti-religious" (a nice
euphemism for being self-hating Jews).  The Ephramite comes to Israel based
on the Biblical promises that HaShem made to us, for eternity.

    There are those that feel that they should align themselves with an
Israeli political party, like the Likud.  The Likud is NOT a nationalist
party - Bibi Netanyahu voted FOR the destruction of Gush Katif, and they are
not so different then Kadima.  Which in turn is not that different then the
Labor Party.  All are Hellenists, Bible-Hating (or at least,
'Bible-Indifferent') people who want power.  And if it's Ephramite or
Christian Evangelical money that it takes to do it, who cares?  Yes, there
are some good people in the Likud - a handful.  But when efforts to exclude
a true Jewish voice likes Moshe Feiglin (and Netanyahu is trying every trick
in the book to make him fail to have any influence within Likud) from their
party happens, you wonder how/why they would listen to an Ephramite.  What
will you do, quote from the Tanach, to someone who doesn't believe it?

    Arik Sharon was one of Israel's greatest generals, no doubt about it.
But he is also personally responsible for destroying more Jewish towns and
villages in the Land of Israel then anyone since the Emperor Hadrian.  And
he was the big 'security' and nationalist candidate...There are indeed Torah
believing Jews in the Israeli Knesset who are likely to be sympathetic to
the Ephramite cause, but they not the ones approached.  They want to be with
the guys likely to be in power...and power corrupts, as the saying goes.
The fact that people actually *believe *that if Likud is the dominate
political party in the next election, they will allow Ephramites to settle
in Israel unconditionally and become citizens, absolutely astounds me.

    Israel cannot decide "Who is a Jew," so how will they determine who is
an "Ephramite?"  Now, there have indeed been cases of individual
(NON-MISSIONARY) Ephramites who have been able to stay in Israel, but it is
done through specific lobbying, and other circumstances.  NOT through a
flashy brochure telling you that you can settle in Israel - that you are
being welcomed back with open arms, and that your children can serve in the
Israel Defense Forces!  It just isn't true...and it will destroy countless
Ephramite families to come to Israel and not be able to stay...and if
they *could
*- what will they do to earn a living?

    The current Minister of the Interior (who controls immigration) was able
to bar *JEWS *from coming to Israel for years, for one reason - that they
came from a third world country, or were Jews of Color.  So why are
Ephramites selling all their possessions and coming to Israel now?  Things
NEED to be changed, but they haven't been, yet!

   *So what do we do now?*

    Pray fervently, study Torah, begin to get to know the other side of the
family, and start having a dialogue that focuses on what we have in common.
One based upon mutual respect and understanding, where we accept each other
for who and what we are - and not try to change the other one.  Visit Israel
on organized tours - get to know where it is that you *want * to live.
Learn the realities of Israeli life, find a career or make a plan that can
help you get a job in Israel .  Israel needs you, but you need to be able to
support your family, too.

    Reach out to other Ephramites...they're where you once were!    Share
information, spread the truth, be an advocate for Israel.  We need to
continue to get organized, and create a movement...Learn Hebrew...no Aliyah
(immigration to Israel) succeeds without it.  Stand alongside your Jewish
cousins.

    Ephraim *will* come home, and they will come home soon.  We have to work
*together* to make that happen.  It should not be one Ephramite that becomes
the "gatekeeper" to Israel; no way!  So how will we 'settle' the religious
differences between us?  We DO have to leave something for HaShem to sort
out for us, right?  And we're ALL likely to wind up being a bit surprised
when HE does it....
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Dec  7 14:30:14 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:30:14 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations
In-Reply-To: <855590370812071203m76d2e391o35a23e551bcf8639@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812071203m76d2e391o35a23e551bcf8639@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS7734ED586CE8F76CE7FF8BAFC0@phx.gbl>

This is what we need, Hanoch...........straight talk!  It is very much appreciated, and I, for one, will endeavor to follow your advice here.

Pat


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:03 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations


 EPHRAMITE EXPECTATIONS 
                                       Hanoch Young
                                                                                           Kislev, 5769
                                                                                YoungBarzel at gmail.com

Introduction
    When I was in Israel recently, it became clear to me that despite the various efforts to promote dialogue and understanding between the Jewish people and their Ephramite cousins, there remain huge areas of misunderstanding, misinformation, rumors and just plain ignorance - on both sides of the family.  The dissension caused by arrogance, envy, jealousy and pride that were our downfall over  3,000 years ago still remain; they have not gone away...

    In addition, there is a total lack of understanding of how Israel (the modern State of Israel) operates, and how Ephramites might be able to 'fit back into the family.'  There are actually individual Ephramites that are attempting to link to secular Israeli political parties to gain influence, so they can have some personal control over the Ephramite immigration process (which, you should know, does not even exist at this time - Ephramites cannot readily immigrate to Israel - despite what some people tell you).

    It is my fervent hope and prayer that sharing this information, and discussing the issues to be raised in this document will help lead to the reunification of ALL of the people of Israel; speedily and in OUR days... 

What Ephramites want

   Since the 1990's, HaShem (G-d) has been awakening HIS people from the pagan mind set they were in, and causing them to seek the truth of Torah.  Ephramites want to be listened to, to be taken seriously by their Jewish cousins.  To share the fact that they too are decedents of the Hebrew people too, not Jewish, but just the same - part of the family.  Part of the promises made to Avraham Avinu (our father Abraham), part of those to inherit HIS CHOSEN LAND, and those that share in the eternal truth of the Torah, and of HIS prophets.  Now, unfortunately, not only do most Jewish people not study (or know, or believe in..) the Tanach enough, but they are blissfully unaware that Ephraim WILL return, because that is what HaShem has promised.  And the one true G-d ALWAYS keeps HIS promises.  

    However, although the Neviim (prophets) did indeed tell us that the Ten Tribes exiled by the Assyrians would come home, there was neither a timetable, or a description of how that would actually happen.  Jewish communities, having suffered tremendously from false messianic movements over the years, became more focused on living today, as opposed to speculation on the future eras that the prophets spoke about.  For Jews living under the heel of Christian or Muslim domination, the idea that those "Lost Tribes" would come back, via that same Christianity was likely to be totally inconceivable.  For the Jews of the Venice ghetto, or in Morocco, it was assumed that the Tribes were somehow living in a far-off land, a powerful people, waiting for the day to return to their brothers and sisters of Judah - the Jewish people.  After the age of exploration was over by the end of the 19th century, it became obvious that it was not the case.  

     Some Jewish people don't know what to do with these 'Bnei Ephraim' - since they don't talk, dress or understand the Torah the exact same way that they do.  They don't fit their paradigm of what the 10 Tribes should be.  They'd rather they either become Bnei Noah, or simply, go away.  The Ephramites expect to be totally accepted, immediately  and without question - with their self-identification (very recent, in many cases) to serve as the 'proof.'  After having read the Tanach for a number of years (in translation, likely to be the King James version, NOT Hebrew), they are convinced that they totally 'get it,' and have no need of the Rabbinic sages, or their opinions and insights.  Not everyone, or all the time, but more then a few, and more then a little of the time.

    And many Ephramites want to go home - to Israel...

"Christianity with a Kipa"   

     To Jewish eyes, this "movement" (although it's really more of a 'one from a city, two from a family' type phenomenon) seems to be another attempt, albeit a more sophisticated one, to missionize to Jews.  After having been 'loved to death' by Christians for 2,000 years, it is extremely hard for Jews to distinguish between those that are Christians and those that are Ephramites.  Jewish sovereignty has only been restored within the last 60 years, and there has indeed been 'much water under the bridge' during the previous 20 centuries.  We have to come up with a common 'language' to even begin to have discussions between us.  We use the same terminology, but mean different things by it.

    We both speak of 'Torah' - but mean (at least) two things; we use the term 'Mashiach' - the 'anointed one,' but have very different expectations of what their role is.  Ephramites are as suspicious (in some, not all cases) of Rabbis, while Jews are wondering what the difference is between 'Jesus' (in whose name we suffered pogroms, forced conversions, rapes, expulsions and attempts to constantly denigrate us) and 'Yeshua.'  It seems like "Christianity with a Kipa (yarmulke)." 

    In an interesting twist of fate, almost all the Ephramites in the USA do not live, or have never lived near a Jewish community.  So, one the one hand, that is proof that this 'thing' is driven by HaShem, not the influence of a local Jewish family, or friend.  However, this also means that never having encountered (in many cases) a Jewish man or woman - they often base their opinions on what they've heard or read.  And in some instances, even what they had heard about Jews in Church; making it one of the last 'doctrines' of Christianity that they are still holding on to.  

    Ephramites seem surprised when recognized (and actually welcomed!) by Jews (in Israel).  They don't realize that their creative approach to tying and wearing their tzit tzit is easy to notice, especially if they are worn while their heads are not covered...they insist that they don't need to tie them like the Jewish people do, since, as I was told, "We're Bnei Ephraim, we have our own traditions."  Is it truly an Ephramite tradition, or something you made up and began doing a year ago??  And you have to ask yourself - do you want to 'blend in' with the Jewish people in Israel, or 'stick out?'  There are several potential meanings to the previous sentence, but I do NOT mean losing your "Ephramite identity," but more so, do you want to continue to separate yourself from 'Judah' in every single way possible?  If you insist on 'making it up as you go along,' then just be prepared to admit that  what is behind it - is YOU; and what YOU think is right.  What about that "Laws of Man" thing?

    Judah does not control The Land

    It is not the Biblical people of Judah stepping out of the pages of the Tanach that have rebuilt Israel.  It is the modern, Jewish people, warts and all.  Largely secularized in Israel, it is the Hellenists, the Erev Rav (the 'mixed multitudes' ) that control the State.  They are NOT all Bible believers, and in fact, there are more then a few people who view Israel from a totally secular lenses, being personally "anti-religious" (a nice euphemism for being self-hating Jews).  The Ephramite comes to Israel based on the Biblical promises that HaShem made to us, for eternity.  

    There are those that feel that they should align themselves with an Israeli political party, like the Likud.  The Likud is NOT a nationalist party - Bibi Netanyahu voted FOR the destruction of Gush Katif, and they are not so different then Kadima.  Which in turn is not that different then the Labor Party.  All are Hellenists, Bible-Hating (or at least, 'Bible-Indifferent') people who want power.  And if it's Ephramite or Christian Evangelical money that it takes to do it, who cares?  Yes, there are some good people in the Likud - a handful.  But when efforts to exclude a true Jewish voice likes Moshe Feiglin (and Netanyahu is trying every trick in the book to make him fail to have any influence within Likud) from their party happens, you wonder how/why they would listen to an Ephramite.  What will you do, quote from the Tanach, to someone who doesn't believe it?  

    Arik Sharon was one of Israel's greatest generals, no doubt about it.  But he is also personally responsible for destroying more Jewish towns and villages in the Land of Israel then anyone since the Emperor Hadrian.  And he was the big 'security' and nationalist candidate...There are indeed Torah believing Jews in the Israeli Knesset who are likely to be sympathetic to the Ephramite cause, but they not the ones approached.  They want to be with the guys likely to be in power...and power corrupts, as the saying goes.  The fact that people actually believe that if Likud is the dominate political party in the next election, they will allow Ephramites to settle in Israel unconditionally and become citizens, absolutely astounds me.  

    Israel cannot decide "Who is a Jew," so how will they determine who is an "Ephramite?"  Now, there have indeed been cases of individual (NON-MISSIONARY) Ephramites who have been able to stay in Israel, but it is done through specific lobbying, and other circumstances.  NOT through a flashy brochure telling you that you can settle in Israel - that you are being welcomed back with open arms, and that your children can serve in the Israel Defense Forces!  It just isn't true...and it will destroy countless Ephramite families to come to Israel and not be able to stay...and if they could - what will they do to earn a living?  

    The current Minister of the Interior (who controls immigration) was able to bar JEWS from coming to Israel for years, for one reason - that they came from a third world country, or were Jews of Color.  So why are Ephramites selling all their possessions and coming to Israel now?  Things NEED to be changed, but they haven't been, yet!

   So what do we do now?

    Pray fervently, study Torah, begin to get to know the other side of the family, and start having a dialogue that focuses on what we have in common.  One based upon mutual respect and understanding, where we accept each other for who and what we are - and not try to change the other one.  Visit Israel on organized tours - get to know where it is that you want  to live.  Learn the realities of Israeli life, find a career or make a plan that can help you get a job in Israel .  Israel needs you, but you need to be able to support your family, too.

    Reach out to other Ephramites...they're where you once were!    Share information, spread the truth, be an advocate for Israel.  We need to continue to get organized, and create a movement...Learn Hebrew...no Aliyah (immigration to Israel) succeeds without it.  Stand alongside your Jewish cousins.

    Ephraim will come home, and they will come home soon.  We have to work together to make that happen.  It should not be one Ephramite that becomes the "gatekeeper" to Israel; no way!  So how will we 'settle' the religious differences between us?  We DO have to leave something for HaShem to sort out for us, right?  And we're ALL likely to wind up being a bit surprised when HE does it....
    




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 14:40:39 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:40:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Will the Likud do anything for Ephramites?
Message-ID: <855590370812071240t1c84cf00x539cb621365c422b@mail.gmail.com>

Fateful Likud Primaries on Monday Kislev 10, 5769, 07 December 08 01:15
by by Hillel Fendel

(IsraelNN.com) A tense drama is unfolding in the Likud, where primaries on
Monday will determine whether the party will take Netanyahu's centrist line,
or will lean more to the right.

Some 150 candidates will be vying on Monday for the support of approximately
100,000 Likud voters around the country.  The candidates ? former and
incumbent Knesset members (MKs) along with political newcomers ? are hoping
to be chosen for high-ranking spots on the list of Knesset candidates that
the Likud will present for the national elections.  The polls will be open
in 91 locations across the country from 10 a.m. until 10 p.m.

*Netanyahu Paves Way for New Party to Join Likud
*Likud Chairman Binyamin Netanyahu appears to have a surprise in store for
the party faithful: He has asked for approval of an amendment to allow the
Central Committee to approve the incorporation of another party, and its
candidates, on the Likud's list. There is speculation that Netanyahu means
to welcome a group of former Likud members who are now in the Kadima Party,
led by former Defense Minister Sha'ul Mofaz, or possibly a smaller group of
MKs from the Pensioners Party. Neither option is very appealing to the
current Likud candidates, who feel they will be pushed down on the list
beyond the number of Knesset seats the Likud will win.

*Netanyahu vs. Feiglin
*Though Netanyahu is a former Prime Minister, while Jewish Leadership
faction head Moshe Feiglin has never served as a Knesset Member, the fight
between them and the camps they lead is sharp and caustic.  Netanyahu
recently warned the candidates not to attend a pro-Feiglin event, and his
aides claim that though he opposes none of the candidates openly, Feiglin is
the only exception.

Among the "tricks" Netanyahu is accused of pulling against Feiglin and the
"Jewish Leadership" candidates is lowering the number of polling stations
from well over 200 to only 91.  Many towns in Judea and Samaria (Yesha),
where Feiglin's support is significant, will thus not have polling stations,
and the voters will either have to travel elsewhere or stay home.  There
will only be eight voting points in all of Yesha: in Shilo, Beit El, Karnei
Shomron, Kiryat Arba, Maaleh Adumim, Efrat, Bahad 3 near Yitzhar, and Shaar
Binyamin near Psagot.

Netanyahu was also able to convince the Central Committee last week to
change the voting regulations in a manner deemed to "neutralize" Feiglin
supporters.  Instead of each voter choosing ten candidates, he or she will
now choose 12 on the nationalist list (as opposed to the 15 that Netanyahu
originally wanted), as well as two on a separate "new immigrants" list, and
one from the voter's region.

Unsigned ads have been published in major newspapers of a Knesset Channel
poll indicating that the Likud will receive 35-36 seats in the upcoming
election ? but only 30 if Feiglin is included on the Likud list. Jewish
Leadership activists counter this by saying that Feiglin's broad support
within the Likud Central Committee and among Likud members proves the large
extent of the public support he enjoys.  Feiglin himself dismissed the poll
results, adding that "if Netanyahu continues the delusional campaign to
de-legitimize Feiglin, the Likud could indeed lose Knesset seats."

Another ad-war was waged over the weekend, with one full-page announcement
stating, "The left is praying that Feiglin will be elected to a high spot in
the Likud," and a counter-ad stating that Netanyahu spoke against the
struggle for Peace House in Hevron by calling for an "iron hand" against the
protestors.

*Lists of Preferred Candidates
*Many lists of "endorsed candidates" have been circulated.  Netanyahu, for
instance, is said to be openly supporting Uzi Dayan and Assaf Heifetz,
neither of whom has strong pro-Land of Israel views.  He has also asked
voters to support Judea and Samaria (Yesha) residents Yuli Edelstein and
Yechiel Leiter, as well as Leah Ness and Chaim Katz.

On the regional lists, Netanyahu supports former Sderot Mayor Eli Moyal in
the Negev, David Even-Tzur in Haifa, Shmuel Slavin in Jerusalem, and Tal
Brody in the Coastal Plain.

The Jewish Leadership faction, on the other hand, supports the following:
Feiglin, Shmuel Sackett, Sagiv Asulin, Asya Antov, and Boaz HaEtzni.  Names
of additional preferred candidates will be released on Monday morning at 8
a.m., but not earlier.  This is "in order to prevent political pressures
from being exerted upon them," according to the Jewish Leadership office.

*Gush Katif Endorses "Rebel" Candidates
*A list circulated by leaders of the former Gush Katif communities
gratefully remembers the anti-Disengagement activities of several Likud
members in 2004-5.  The MKs and former MKs known as the "rebels" against
Ariel Sharon and who are currently endorsed by the Gush Katif residents are:
Yuli Edelstein, Ruby Rivlin, Gilad Erdan, Moshe Kachlon, Michael Ratzon,
Ayoub Kara, Ehud Yatom, Gideon Saar, Yechiel Chazan, Daniel Ben-Lulu, Leah
Ness and Chaim Katz.

Others who have been mentioned as strong opponents of a Palestinian state
are Michael Kleiner, Gila Gamliel, Benny Begin, Moshe Yaalon and Tzipi
Hutubeli.

*Silvan Shalom's List
*MK Silvan Shalom, who presented the strongest challenge to Netanyahu's
party leadership in recent years, also has a list of preferred candidates.
Some of them overlap with Feiglin's, while others, such as Arik Brami in
Haifa and Gila Gamliel, do not.

*Great Interest in the Likud
*The great interest shown by the national-religious camp in the Likud
primaries can be chalked up to the Likud's predicted overwhelming victory in
the coming national elections.  Feiglin, however, explains it differently:
"Those who see the newspapers of the religious public and the synagogue
pamphlets cannot ignore the great amount of ads and articles regarding the
Likud primaries. Candidates brag about their loyalty to the Land of Israel,
to Jewish education, to tradition and nation.  What has happened here that
the Likud is suddenly of such interest to the religious public? The answer
is that 'Jewish Leadership' has brought many members to the Likud, and
therefore their interests are now of great interest to the candidates of the
Likud ? the ruling party of the nationalist camp."

*Computerized Vote
*The vote will be computerized.  Each candidate has been assigned a
three-digit number, and each voter must click on 12 such numbers.  The 12
chosen names then appear on a screen, and the voter can make changes if s/he
so desires.  Two more candidates must be chosen in the same manner from
among the ten candidates running for the new immigrant slot, and one more
from the voter's region.
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Dec  7 14:51:08 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:51:08 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations
In-Reply-To: <855590370812071203m76d2e391o35a23e551bcf8639@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812071203m76d2e391o35a23e551bcf8639@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1881329729-1228683133-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-758176353-@bxe010.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Exceelent Hanoch!

This is a very clear and honest picture of the lay of the land as far as I can tellm

I'm working on my part of it right now.

Crashing!  Nitey nite

JC

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>

Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:03:38 
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations


_______________________________________________



From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 15:50:12 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:50:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations
References: <855590370812071203m76d2e391o35a23e551bcf8639@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <568452.54264.qm@web51108.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Toda Achi!!
??? Good work! I wish I had time to write extensively about our experiences, and my own vascilating perceptions,?with some of the points you make and the personalities we witnessed.?I didn't, however,?perceive evil intent with the personalities we faced. Whether or not those with this Likud Party strategy have embraced a flawed strategy, that is a separate issue, and time will tell - whether it will help or hinder, I don't know. There is certainly reason to have mixed feelings about aspects of peoples strategies. But then, sometimes, when one has a commission from HaShem, he just has to do what he feels led to do and suffer the praise or the shame afterwards...sometimes certain ones on?a committee will simply drag their feet and?miss the opportunities before them.?
??? Personally, I had "a ticket to ride" that I had purchased almost a year before and it had to be spent. (Otherwise, I would?probably?be over there with John right now.?I hopped on the plane. Yet, even with that, I know I was sent for purposes beyond what I can imagine. I?had a mission to embrace Our Land and my brother Yehudah, and it reached out and embraced me and my guts wrenched for days with 'groanings which cannot be uttered' (Romans 8:26); tears streamed down my face and I heard myself, almost as outside myself,?speaking in Hebrew. I don't know how many Jews from Gush Katif I hugged, and heard them welcoming me. The doors for that experience were opened by others who place their lives in jeopardy everday.
??? Among other things, I had a mission to hand my CD to several in the Likud Party. One whom I handed it to, looked at it, and read the cover---"One In My Hand, Ezekiel 37",?smiled and nodded.?The next night at the 'big event' he read from Ezekiel 37 about the House of Joseph and the House of Judah.
??? I certainly would echo the points?that you make, we?definitely have some more growing and developing to experience. With a friend and counselor like you, we will certainly make a wiser and more peaceful journey home.?

Thanks Again Hanoch for these words of wisdom,
Tracy


________________________________
From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 3:03:38 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations

?EPHRAMITE EXPECTATIONS 
?????????????????????????????????????? Hanoch Young
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Kislev, 5769
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????YoungBarzel at gmail.com
?
Introduction
????When I was?in Israel recently, it became clear to me that despite the various efforts to promote dialogue and understanding between the Jewish people and their Ephramite cousins, there remain huge areas of misunderstanding, misinformation, rumors and just plain ignorance - on both sides of the family.? The dissension caused by arrogance, envy,?jealousy and pride that were our downfall over? 3,000 years ago still remain; they have not gone away...
?
????In addition, there is a total lack of understanding of how Israel (the modern State of Israel) operates, and how Ephramites might be able to 'fit back into the family.'? There are actually individual Ephramites that are attempting to link to secular Israeli political parties to gain influence, so they can have some personal control over the Ephramite immigration process (which, you should know, does not even exist at this time - Ephramites cannot readily immigrate to Israel - despite what some people tell you).
?
????It is my fervent hope and prayer that sharing this information, and discussing the issues to be raised in this document will help lead to the reunification of ALL of the people of Israel; speedily and in OUR days...?
?
What Ephramites want
?
???Since the 1990's, HaShem (G-d) has been awakening HIS people?from the pagan mind set they were in, and causing them to seek the truth of Torah.? Ephramites want to be listened to, to be taken seriously by their Jewish cousins.? To share the fact that they too are decedents of the Hebrew people too, not Jewish, but just the same - part of the family.? Part of the promises made to Avraham Avinu (our father Abraham), part of those to inherit HIS CHOSEN LAND, and those that share in the eternal truth of the Torah, and of HIS prophets.? Now, unfortunately, not only do most Jewish people not study (or know, or believe in..) the Tanach enough, but they are blissfully unaware that Ephraim WILL return, because that is what HaShem has promised.? And the one true G-d ALWAYS keeps HIS promises.? 
?
????However, although the Neviim (prophets) did indeed tell us that the Ten Tribes exiled by the Assyrians would come home, there was neither a timetable, or a description of how that would actually happen.? Jewish communities, having suffered tremendously from false messianic movements over the years,?became more?focused on living today, as opposed to speculation on the future eras that the prophets spoke about.? For Jews living under the heel of Christian or Muslim domination, the idea that those "Lost Tribes" would come back, via that same Christianity was likely to be totally?inconceivable.? For the Jews of the Venice ghetto, or in Morocco, it was assumed that the Tribes were somehow living in a far-off land, a powerful people, waiting for the day to return to their brothers and sisters of Judah - the Jewish people.? After the age of exploration was over by the end of the 19th century, it became obvious that it was not the case.? 
?
?????Some Jewish people don't know what to do with these 'Bnei Ephraim' - since they don't talk, dress or understand the Torah the exact same way that they do.? They don't fit their paradigm of what the 10 Tribes should be.? They'd rather they either become Bnei Noah, or simply, go away.? The Ephramites expect to be totally accepted, immediately? and without question - with their self-identification (very recent, in many cases) to serve as the 'proof.'? After having read the Tanach for a number of years (in translation, likely to be the King James version, NOT Hebrew), they are convinced that they totally 'get it,' and have no need of the Rabbinic sages, or their opinions and insights.? Not everyone, or all the time, but more then a few, and more then a little of the time.
?
????And many Ephramites want to go home - to Israel...
?
"Christianity with a Kipa"???

?????To Jewish eyes, this "movement" (although it's really more of a 'one from a city, two from a family' type phenomenon) seems to be another attempt, albeit a more sophisticated one, to missionize to Jews.? After having been 'loved to death' by Christians for 2,000 years, it is extremely hard for Jews to distinguish between those that are Christians and those that are Ephramites.? Jewish sovereignty has only been restored within the last 60 years, and there has indeed been 'much water under the bridge' during the previous 20 centuries. ?We have to come up with a common 'language' to even begin to have discussions between us.? We use the same terminology, but mean different things by it.
?
????We both speak of 'Torah' - but mean (at least) two things; we use the term 'Mashiach' - the 'anointed one,' but have very different expectations of what their role is.? Ephramites are as suspicious (in some, not all cases) of Rabbis, while Jews are wondering what the difference is between 'Jesus' (in whose name we suffered pogroms, forced conversions, rapes, expulsions and attempts to constantly denigrate us) and 'Yeshua.'? It seems like "Christianity with a Kipa (yarmulke)." 
?
????In an interesting twist of fate, almost all the Ephramites in the USA do not live, or have never lived near a Jewish community.? So, one the one hand, that is proof that this 'thing' is driven by HaShem, not the influence of a local Jewish family, or friend.? However, this also means that never having encountered (in many cases) a Jewish man or woman - they often base their opinions on what they've heard or read.? And in some instances, even what they had heard about Jews in Church; making it one of the last 'doctrines' of Christianity that they are still holding on to.? 
?
????Ephramites seem surprised when recognized (and actually welcomed!) by Jews (in Israel).? They don't realize that their creative approach to tying and wearing their tzit tzit is easy to notice, especially if they are worn while their heads are not covered...they insist that they don't need to tie them like the Jewish people do, since, as I was told, "We're Bnei Ephraim, we have our own traditions."? Is it truly an Ephramite tradition, or something you made up and began doing a year ago??? And you have to ask yourself - do you want to 'blend in' with the Jewish people in Israel, or 'stick out?'? There are several potential meanings to the previous sentence, but I do NOT mean losing your "Ephramite identity," but more so, do you want to continue to separate yourself from 'Judah' in every single way possible?? If you insist on 'making it up as you go along,' then just be prepared to admit that? what is behind it - is YOU; and what YOU think is
 right.? What about that "Laws of Man" thing?
?
????Judah does not control The Land
?
????It is not the Biblical people of Judah stepping out of the pages of the Tanach that have rebuilt Israel.? It is the modern, Jewish people, warts and all.? Largely secularized in Israel, it is the Hellenists, the Erev Rav (the 'mixed multitudes' ) that control the State.? They are NOT all Bible believers, and in fact, there are more then a few people who view Israel from a totally secular lenses, being personally "anti-religious" (a nice euphemism for being self-hating Jews).? The Ephramite comes to Israel based on the Biblical promises that HaShem made to us, for eternity.? 
?
????There are those that feel that they should align themselves with an Israeli political party, like the Likud.? The Likud is NOT a nationalist party - Bibi Netanyahu voted FOR the destruction of Gush Katif, and they are not so different then Kadima.? Which in turn is not that different then the Labor Party.? All are Hellenists, Bible-Hating (or at least, 'Bible-Indifferent') people who want power.? And if it's Ephramite or Christian Evangelical money that it takes to do it, who cares?? Yes, there are some good people in the Likud - a handful.? But when efforts to exclude a true Jewish voice likes Moshe Feiglin (and Netanyahu is trying every trick in the book to make him fail to have any influence within Likud) from their party happens, you wonder how/why they would listen to an Ephramite.? What will you do, quote from the Tanach, to someone who doesn't believe it?? 
?
????Arik Sharon was one of Israel's greatest generals, no doubt about it.? But he is also personally responsible for destroying more Jewish towns and villages in the Land of Israel then anyone since the Emperor Hadrian.? And he was the big 'security' and nationalist candidate...There are indeed Torah believing Jews in the Israeli Knesset who are likely to be sympathetic to the Ephramite cause, but they not the ones approached.? They want to be with the guys likely to be in power...and power corrupts, as the saying goes.? The fact that people actually believe that if Likud is the dominate political party in the next election, they will allow Ephramites to settle in Israel unconditionally and become citizens, absolutely astounds me.? 
?
????Israel cannot decide "Who is a Jew," so how will they determine who is an "Ephramite?"? Now, there have indeed been cases of individual (NON-MISSIONARY) Ephramites who have been able to stay in Israel, but it is done through specific lobbying, and other circumstances.? NOT through a flashy brochure telling you that you can settle in Israel - that you are being welcomed back with open arms, and that your children can serve in the Israel Defense Forces!? It just isn't true...and it will destroy countless Ephramite families to come to Israel and not be able to stay...and if they could - what will they do to earn a living?? 
?
????The current Minister of the Interior (who controls immigration) was able to bar JEWS from coming to Israel for years, for one reason - that they came from a third world country, or were Jews of Color.? So why are Ephramites selling all their possessions and coming to Israel now?? Things NEED to be changed, but they haven't been, yet!
?
???So what do we do now?

????Pray fervently, study Torah, begin to get to know the other side of the family,?and start having a dialogue that focuses on what we have in common.? One based upon mutual respect and understanding, where we accept each other for who and what we are - and not try to change the other one.? Visit Israel on organized tours - get to know where?it is that you want ?to live.? Learn the realities of Israeli life, find a career?or make a plan that can help you get a job in Israel?.? Israel needs you, but you need to be able to support your family, too.

????Reach out to other Ephramites...they're where you once were!??? Share information, spread the truth, be an advocate for Israel.? We need to continue to get organized, and create a movement...Learn Hebrew...no Aliyah (immigration to Israel) succeeds without it.? Stand alongside?your Jewish cousins.
?
????Ephraim will come home, and they will come home soon.? We have to work together to make that happen.? It should?not be one Ephramite that becomes the "gatekeeper" to Israel; no way!? So how will we 'settle' the religious differences between us?? We DO have to leave something for HaShem to sort out for us, right?? And we're ALL likely to wind up being a bit surprised when HE does it....


      
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 15:56:23 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:56:23 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations
In-Reply-To: <1881329729-1228683133-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-758176353-@bxe010.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <855590370812071203m76d2e391o35a23e551bcf8639@mail.gmail.com>
	<1881329729-1228683133-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-758176353-@bxe010.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <855590370812071356u1a900b52ne53807c6646764cc@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom John - Welcome HOME!

You're in the perfect spot - Patty will tell it to you, 'like it is,' not
like we want it to be.  It's a harsh dose of reality at times, but it is
REALITY.  We could be accomplishing SO much for the movement, instead of
acting like we're part of Alice in Wonderland!  Get some rest pal...y'all
are gonna need it!  :-)

B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland),
             *Hanoch

*
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 3:51 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Exceelent Hanoch!
>
> This is a very clear and honest picture of the lay of the land as far as I
> can tellm
>
> I'm working on my part of it right now.
>
> Crashing!  Nitey nite
>
> JC
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
>
> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:03:38
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Dec  7 19:35:41 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:35:41 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul Dec 7, 2008
Message-ID: <5F2001C342BA4702B8A33A0D630C649F@bettylaptop>

Ross,

 

This teaching tonight was so good in that it gave a very personal touch to
the Roots of Faith movement and how your thoughts and faith have been
formulated over the past 20 years and the actual birthing process of the
Synagogue Without Walls.  I enjoyed hearing you teach very much as always,
and it was good to hear Sherry and Glenn give their heartfelt input as well.
HaShem has brought us all to the place where we are today through his Yad
Tova (Good Hand).  He has used people and circumstances, books, articles,
and now the internet, to touch our hearts and instill the drive to go back
to endeavor to recover and walk in those Ancient Paths!  I am so grateful
that HaShem has put you and all in my path!  

 

I feel that you laid a very important groundwork this evening.looking
forward to catching up on the other podcasts and to next Sunday Shul.

 

Happy Anniversary Synagogue Without Walls!  And shavua tov to all who are a
part of it!  What a blessing!

 

Shalom! Shalom!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 21:33:41 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:33:41 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Welcome to the end of time"
Message-ID: <855590370812071933j1bce5854o5ab1d26d26f2d18a@mail.gmail.com>

>From the Samson's Blinded website:

And they of the South shall possess the mount of Esau, and they of the
Lowland
the Philistines; and they shall possess the field of Ephraim, and the field
of
Samaria; and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. And saviours shall come up on
mount
Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. Ovadia

We are living in the messianic age. According to Mishnah Sanhedrin, "There
is
no difference between this world and the messianic era, except for
subjugation
to kingdoms." Rambam also supported that commonsensical view: a messiah is
the
man who delivers Israel from the Exile: "Do not imagine  that the messianic
king
needs to give signs, perform miracles,? or resurrect the dead?. Rabbi Akiva
and the wise men did not ask the King Ben Koziba for a sign or a miracle."
Some
sages endowed the messiah with supernatural features, but arguably they did
so
to discourage the Jews who long for delivery from running after every
self-proclaimed messiah, endangering Jews as the whole. Rambam, too,
imagined
some almost supernatural consequences of the messiah, such as the lasting
peace
and honest religiosity, but for the most part, a messiah for him was
characterized by gathering Israel in the Promised Land and attempting to
rebuild
the Temple.

Gathering is the critical part. Jews have attempted rebuilding our state
during
the 1,900 years of the Exile, but only the recent attempt successfully
gathered
the Jews from the Diaspora communities. The 2,500-year-old Jewish
communities in
Babylon and Syria, Libya and Egypt are no more. Only in the late twentieth
century the Gentile dominance over the Jews has ended. Only in the 1947 was
a
Jewish country created in conformance with the Talmud, by the UN decision,
without the Jews rioting against the nations.

The messiah will fight Esau. The suggestion is rather strange, as he was
never
a significant enemy of Jews. Today, our major enemies are the Arabs, our
cousins, the children of Esau.

Enigmatically, the messiah "will smite the head of all the descendants of
Seth"
(Numbers 24:17). The problem is that the entire humanity has descended from
Seth
through Noah, including the Jews. So there is an interpretation that the
messiah
will fight the entire world. That's something Israel might be eventually
forced to do, but perhaps a simpler explanation is that the prophet Balaam
meant
the Egyptian deity Seth. Modern Israel does have considerable problems with
Egypt.

Israel reached the proportions of Zechariah 9:10: "from (Red) sea to
(Mediterranean) sea, and from (Jordan) river to the land's end
(Mediterranean
shore)."

The Exodus took place. Jews have left Europe and Arab countries for Israel.
Those who refused to rise and go immediately, perished in the Holocaust.
Like in
the first Exodus, in the second one almost the entire generation perished,
unable to reach the Promised Land; they died in Europe rather in the Sinai.

The renegade Jews perished: the Samaritans number mere hundreds, and Reform
Jews assimilate quickly. Scores of blind leaders - abominable Jewish
community
bosses and atheist rabbis ? arose to lead the blind into the pit of
assimilation. The scale of devastation of the Diaspora Jewry in America,
Canada,
West and East Europe, comparable only to Holocaust in the silence of its
victims
and disregard of its Judenrat leaders, leaves no doubt about the divine
plan.

Jewish influence is at the top worldwide. About 40% of American billionaires
are Jewish. The influence has peaked, as Jewish moguls increasingly
dissociate
from Jewishness.

Nations turned to the Jewish values. Almost the entire civilized world
considers itself monotheist. Quite every cultured person envisages God in
abstract terms rather than an anthropomorphic deity. Republican democracy, a
preferred social order around the world, is laid out in the Torah: You shall
not
follow the majority to evil; presumably, follow them to what the Torah
considers
good. Animal rights groups promulgate the rabbinical notions of the minimal
suffering during slaughter. Slavery, harshly curtailed in the Torah, is
abolished. Enemies are treated with moderation and a sense of justice.

As the sources put the messianic era at 210 years or, at any rate, a very
long
period, the messiah seems a collective image. Sages, indeed, understood the
messianic Isaiah 53 chapter as referring to Israel collectively. So we don't
need to imagine an unsavory Jew such as Ben Gurion a messiah. In every
recent
generation, we had a dead militant Messiah from the house of Joseph: Meir
Kahane, Avraham Stern.

God never does clear-cut miracles. The Reed Sea parting evidently left a
good
number of Jews unconvinced, as they soon complained of the lack of food and
water. Indeed, that miracle looked anything but a miracle: the eastward
wind,
blowing all night, pushed shallow waters from the reed swamp and made it
crossable on foot, while still impassible for the Egyptian heavy chariots,
which, the Torah says, were stuck in the mud and lost their wheels. The
Purim
miracles were even more sublime: of his entire harem, the Persian despot
became
madly attracted to his old Jewish wife who surely looked sorrowful after a
three-day fast, and followed her whims. Israeli victories in 1948, 1956,
1967,
and 1973 can be logically explained by peculiar military circumstances.
After
all, even a coin thrown up into the air can land on its edge. But after
Yitzhak
Shamir agreed to the Madrid Conference, the beginning of the giveaway of
Judea
to Arabs, 39 SCUD missiles hit Israel, the maximum number of lashes under
the
Torah law. Like under lashes, no one has died from the Iraqi missiles.

The Torah tells us to exterminate Amalek, but to evict the Canaanite nations
? not kill them. God even promised to plant terror in their hearts so that
they would flee from us. In 1948, 400,000 Palestinian Arabs took off from
their
land and fled the country for no rational reason.

The prophetic vision has exploded. Prophets were rare in the biblical times
?
hardly two dozen in a thousand years ? but recently the prophecy surged.
There
are a lot of credible accounts of prominent rabbis predicting the realized
events. Some great ones predicted remote events, such as when Rabbi Nahman
of
Uman refused conducting marriage ceremonies because the generation a hundred
years from him would better not be born; that generation perished in
Ukrainian
pogroms and Holocaust. Rav Kaduri, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Bava Salia and
less
prominent rabbis established their prophetic abilities beyond doubt.

Our times saw the Cain's curses being lifted. Anesthesia and advanced
medical
procedures help alleviate the women's pain during childbirth. Advances in
agriculture mean that men no longer need to toil exhaustingly for their
sustenance. Health improvements increase the lifetime, and stem cells
theoretically offer almost unlimited life span.

The history always shamed those who predicted its end, and in no century was
there a shortage of doomsayers. I'm not eager to join their ridiculed ranks,
but there are some arguments beyond the claims of Maya calendar' watchers
that
the time runs faster now as the end of our cycle draws near. Even Rambam,
though
quoting the Talmudic curse over those who calculate the end of times,
offered
his own estimate, now long expired.

God offered 40-day grace period to Nineveh, and 40-year ? to Judea after
Israel was destroyed. Nineveh repented and survived, but Judea didn't and
perished. In the current Israel, Jews first rebelled against the divine will
in
1967 when we failed to annex the land of Judea which God gave in our hands
miraculously. God slapped us with the Yom Kippur war, and saved in it. Then
we
sinned irreparably by giving away Sinai, the Promised Land. Did 1978 start a
forty-year countdown?

There is a place in Esther 9 where, extremely unusually, four Hebrew letters
are of non-standard size. The sages have long maintained that's a prophecy.
The four letters make the number 5-707, which is a Hebrew equivalent to the
Gregorian year 1946-1947. That year, ten Nazis were hanged in Nuremberg, and
transvestite Goring committed suicide. In Esther, Haman's ten sons are
hanged,
and his daughter committed suicide, according to a midrash. To drive the
point
home to Jews, one of the Nazis, whose name is not deserved to be mentioned,
screamed "The Purim 1946" at the gallows. In Esther 3, eleven months passed
from the king's decree on extermination of Jews to the salvation; 11 years
passed from the 1935 Nuremberg laws to the 1946 Nuremberg trials. In 1953,
Stalin died during or just before the Purim, days before the planned date of
wiping out all Soviet Jews by transferring them to the coldest place in
Siberia.

There are other strange correlations, including the number of Jews killed
fighting for Jerusalem in 1967, the number of years between independence and
capturing the Temple Mount (same as for King Jehoiakim), etc. Every such
oddity
can be explained rationally - it is a matter of Jewish belief that God
performs
miracles without violating the laws of nature ? but there are just too many
coincidences.

You can leave a comment at
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/welcome-to-the-end-of-time.htm
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 21:40:17 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:40:17 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] FREE Jonathan Pollard NOW
Message-ID: <855590370812071940r507c390eyd2152d10dc99d8c0@mail.gmail.com>

Sample text:                         (don't forget the petition @
freepollardnow.com


President George W. Bush

The White House

1600 Pennsylvania Avenue

Washington, D.C. 20500



Dear President Bush:



I am writing to request that you exercise your power of executive clemency
and let Jonathan Pollard go home to Israel.  When you consider all the facts
related to Jonathan Pollard's case, a commutation of his sentence certainly
appears to be appropriate.



Jonathan Pollard has repeatedly expressed his remorse publicly and in
private in letters to many Presidents and others.  He has said that he
sincerely regrets having broken the law.



Jonathan Pollard's life sentence is grossly disproportionate when compared
to the sentences of others who have spied for allied nations.  Although the
median sentence for his offense is 2 to 4 years, Jonathan Pollard has now
served over 23 years in prison.  He spent 7 years in solitary confinement in
the harshest unit of the harshest prison in the Federal System - FCI Marian.



In addition, Jonathan Pollard is in poor health, having developed diabetes,
high blood pressure, high cholesterol, pre-glaucoma, and arthritis while in
prison.



Mr. President, I respectfully urge you to use your constitutional authority
to grant executive clemency to, and commute the sentence of, Jonathan
Pollard.  It is time to set Jonathan Pollard free and send him home to
Israel with his family.



Very truly yours,



Name

Address

City, State Zip
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun Dec  7 14:20:15 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 20:20:15 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] We're Here.
Message-ID: <120720082020.24117.493C2FFF00041A0000005E3522216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey All,

We made it!  Flights were no problem, no trouble at the airports.  We are safely settled in at Patty's place and all is well.  Already have some great photo's.  Gotta keep it short, we are both very jet-lagged and have lotsa plans for tomorrow.

Laila Tov.  Talk more later.

Love,
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sun Dec  7 22:24:53 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 23:24:53 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul Dec 7, 2008
Message-ID: <c23.510e2add.366dfb95@aol.com>

Thanks Betty.  I had this overwhelming sense all week leading up to  tonight 
that I should take the time to tell people the story of what led to what  is 
called Roots of Faith.
 
I am also excited about next week's class. I still feel that this upcoming  
class is one that many people will hear. I do however feel that it was 
important  for me to reflect back tonight as this is the anniversary of me receiving 
the  keys to the synagogue.
 
This day three years ago was certainly providential.
 
Thanks for being there all these years. I count your friendship as one  of 
the blessings given to me as a result of the walk I have been on for nearly  20 
years now. 
 
Shalom, Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Sun Dec  7 23:15:39 2008
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:45:39 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
Message-ID: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com>

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Dec  8 07:37:18 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:37:18 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul Dec 7, 2008
In-Reply-To: <c23.510e2add.366dfb95@aol.com>
References: <c23.510e2add.366dfb95@aol.com>
Message-ID: <7BBDBBE4-029E-405B-A4E3-3D3B3E1DC1EA@earthlink.net>

I was traveling and could not listen but just downloaded it and can't  
wait to listen today while commuting. My warmest congratulations and  
best wishes on this 3rd anniversary!

James Tabor


On Dec 7, 2008, at 11:24 PM, rndavar at aol.com wrote:

> Thanks Betty.  I had this overwhelming sense all week leading up to  
> tonight that I should take the time to tell people the story of what  
> led to what is called Roots of Faith.
>
> I am also excited about next week's class. I still feel that this  
> upcoming class is one that many people will hear. I do however feel  
> that it was important for me to reflect back tonight as this is the  
> anniversary of me receiving the keys to the synagogue.
>
> This day three years ago was certainly providential.
>
> Thanks for being there all these years. I count your friendship as  
> one of the blessings given to me as a result of the walk I have been  
> on for nearly 20 years now.
>
> Shalom, Ross
>
> Ross K. Nichols
> www.RootsofFaith.org
>
>
>
>
> Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite  
> sites in one place. Try it now.
> _______________________________________________

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  8 10:09:52 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:09:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
In-Reply-To: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com>
References: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS5FD1AF8BD84A3C9184BE0BAFD0@phx.gbl>

This will shake you up!!!!  I applaud you, Jessica, for challenging us with Rabbi Meir Kahane's no-holds-barred teaching.  We have been conditioned to live in the gray areas, no longer recognizing the boundaries of black and white, right and wrong.  We have blurred the words of our Prophets until they've become politically correct enough to suit our behavior.  We have defaced the Holy Torah with our better, more "enlightened" and visionary dreams of a utopian society where hugs replace justice, and coldblooded murderers are released to kill again and again.

We need to study very carefully all that the Torah, Prophets and Writings teach us, then act accordingly.

I am not brave and unyielding to sin like Rabbi Kahane was.  I have comfortably settled into a monochromatic palette of gray...........but I want to change.  I want to follow HaShem at all costs.  I want to be so much better than I am.  Thank you for encouraging us, Jessica, with the teachings of this man who challenges one and all to follow G-d.

Pat    


From: Vegemite Rose 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:15 AM
To: Roots Of Faith Dialogue List 
Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah


Shalom to All,
I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown away by his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be forgotten and may his teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land, the Torah, the Covenant and the Holy People.
Blessings from Jessica

 


Down With Hanukah
By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l

If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members of the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the barricades and join in battle against that most dangerous of all Jewish holidays - Hanukah.

It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along with the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that stands for everything that the masses of world Jewry and their leadership has rejected - it is this one. If one would find an event that is truly rooted in everything that Jews of our times and their leaders have rejected and, indeed, attacked - it is this one. If there is any holiday that is more "un-Jewish" in the sense of our modern beliefs and practices - I do not know of it.

The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract Christmas; that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our- goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children with eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that the Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so that the beaming parents might think that the Religious School is really successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it really is; the Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me- liberty-or-death and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal saviors who fought so that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to preach their Marx and eat their ham, that the split-level dwellers of suburbia might be allowed to violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom and the Reform and Conservative Temples continue to fight for civil rights for Blacks, Puerto Ricans and Jane Fonda, is not remotely connected with reality.

This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. Truly, could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see what Hanukah has become, they might very well begin a second Maccabean revolt. For the life that we Jews lead today was the very cause, the real reason, for the revolt of the Jews "in those days in our times."

What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a handful of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And precisely who was the enemy? What were they fighting for and who were they fighting against?

For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, yet, the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek policy shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to suppress the Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its bloodiness. It was not mere liberty that led to the Maccabean uprising that we so passionately applaud. What we are really cheering is a brave group of Jews who fought and plunged Judea into a bloodbath for the right to observe the Sabbath, to follow the laws of kashrut, to obey the laws of the Torah. In a world where everything about Hanukah that we commemorate, and teach our children to commemorate, are things we consider to be outmoded, medieval and childish!

At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have done what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are not really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not the Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative movements write this daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that which we violate every day of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges as a needless holiday if not a foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven children; poor Mattathias and Judah; poor well meaning chaps all - but hopelessly backward and utterly unnecessary sacrifices.

But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at the hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children portray so cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants, was not a Greek. He was a Jew.

When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and demand its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom of pagan worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After all, what business was it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And it was this Jew, this apostate, this religious traitor who was struck down by the brave, glorious, courageous, (are these not the words all our Sunday schools use to describe him) Mattathias, as he shouted: "Whoever is for G-d, follow me!"

What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry? What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair, the graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, the liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us unto death with the concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded, undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to honor? What kind of nationalism is this for Shimon Peres (he who rejects the 'Galut' and speaks of the proud, free Jew of ancient Judea and Israel)?

And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who reacted to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have deplored Jewish violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- Jewish, stand in horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket the Syrian Greeks to death and who rejected quiet diplomacy for the sword, spear and arrow (had there been bombs in those days, who can tell what they might have done?) and "descended to the level of 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical and moral concepts of Judaism.

Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is this the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our children? Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in the wilderness to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it represents - the Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?

Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of bigotry that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the Judaism of violence that calls for Jewish force and might against the enemy? When shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese food and violate our Sabbaths and reject all the separateness, nationalism and religious maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly represents? Down with Hanukah! It is a regressive holiday that merely symbolizes the Judaism that always was; the Judaism that was handed down to us from Sinai; the Judaism that made our ancestors ready to give their lives for the L-rd; the Judaism that young people instinctively know is true and great and real. Such a Judaism is dangerous for us and our leaders. We must do all in our power to bury it.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
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From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Mon Dec  8 17:08:51 2008
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 09:38:51 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS5FD1AF8BD84A3C9184BE0BAFD0@phx.gbl>
References: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com>
	<BLU125-DS5FD1AF8BD84A3C9184BE0BAFD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <493DA903.3070002@y7mail.com>

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 17:20:37 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:20:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
In-Reply-To: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com>
References: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <855590370812081520i5c58cf39l6f5d4f9bf4d80975@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Jessica,

    I guess you got a chance to check out that website I sent, huh?  :-)
The beauty and power of the Torah that Rav Kahane HY"D (HaShem Yikom Damo,
May G-d Avenge his blood) is that it was totally direct and clear.

   No 'politically correct' view of the world; he told it like it is...send
me your address, I've got some stuff you'll love to read!

    As he used to say, "Isn't great to listen to a Jewish leader that's not
a wimp?!"

    Best regards,
              *Hanoch
*
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:15 AM, Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>wrote:

> *Shalom to All,
> I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown away by
> his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be forgotten and may his
> teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land, the Torah, the Covenant and the
> Holy People.
> Blessings from Jessica*
>
>
>
>  *Down With Hanukah
> By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l*
>
> If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment whose
> money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the leadership
> and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members of the Israeli
> Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened sophisticated, modern
> Jewish intellectual, I would climb the barricades and join in battle against
> that most dangerous of all Jewish holidays - Hanukah.
>
> It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community that
> there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the "Feast of
> Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual dishonesty and
> hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along with the lie. For if ever
> there was a holiday that stands for everything that the masses of world
> Jewry and their leadership has rejected - it is this one. If one would find
> an event that is truly rooted in everything that Jews of our times and their
> leaders have rejected and, indeed, attacked - it is this one. If there is
> any holiday that is more "un-Jewish" in the sense of our modern beliefs and
> practices - I do not know of it.
>
> The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its
> childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the Hanukah
> of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish parents - in
> their vapidness needed something to counteract Christmas; that exploded in a
> show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our- goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to
> reward our spoiled children with eight gifts instead of the poor Christian
> one; the Hanukah that the Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a
> school pageant so that the beaming parents might think that the Religious
> School is really successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it
> really is; the Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me-
> liberty-or-death and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal saviors
> who fought so that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to preach their
> Marx and eat their ham, that the split-level dwellers of suburbia might be
> allowed to violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom and the Reform and
> Conservative Temples continue to fight for civil rights for Blacks, Puerto
> Ricans and Jane Fonda, is not remotely connected with reality.
>
> This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews of
> Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is surely not
> the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. Truly, could those whom
> we honor so munificently, return and see what Hanukah has become, they might
> very well begin a second Maccabean revolt. For the life that we Jews lead
> today was the very cause, the real reason, for the revolt of the Jews "in
> those days in our times."
>
> What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a handful of
> Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And precisely who was the
> enemy? What were they fighting for and who were they fighting against?
>
> For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True
> independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, yet, the
> Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek policy shifted from
> mere political control to one that attempted to suppress the Jewish religion
> that the revolt erupted in all its bloodiness. It was not mere liberty that
> led to the Maccabean uprising that we so passionately applaud. What we are
> really cheering is a brave group of Jews who fought and plunged Judea into a
> bloodbath for the right to observe the Sabbath, to follow the laws of
> kashrut, to obey the laws of the Torah. In a world where everything about
> Hanukah that we commemorate, and teach our children to commemorate, are
> things we consider to be outmoded, medieval and childish!
>
> At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and
> obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have done
> what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are not really
> Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not the Reform,
> Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative movements write this
> daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that which we violate every day
> of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges as a needless holiday if not a
> foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven children; poor Mattathias and Judah;
> poor well meaning chaps all - but hopelessly backward and utterly
> unnecessary sacrifices.
>
> But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and unnecessary
> holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and illiberal. The
> first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at the hands of the brave
> Jewish heroes whom our delightful children portray so cleverly in their
> Sunday and religious school pageants, was not a Greek. He was a Jew.
>
> When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and demand its
> worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom of pagan worship
> and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After all, what business was
> it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And it was this Jew, this
> apostate, this religious traitor who was struck down by the brave, glorious,
> courageous, (are these not the words all our Sunday schools use to describe
> him) Mattathias, as he shouted: "Whoever is for G-d, follow me!"
>
> What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry? What
> kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair, the
> graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, the liberal,
> open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us unto death with the
> concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded, undogmatic, liberal,
> universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to honor? What kind of nationalism
> is this for Shimon Peres (he who rejects the 'Galut' and speaks of the
> proud, free Jew of ancient Judea and Israel)?
>
> And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of peace
> which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who reacted to
> oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have deplored Jewish
> violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- Jewish, stand in horror
> as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket the Syrian Greeks to death and
> who rejected quiet diplomacy for the sword, spear and arrow (had there been
> bombs in those days, who can tell what they might have done?) and "descended
> to the level of 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical and moral concepts of
> Judaism.
>
> Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the kinds of
> men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is this the kind of
> Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our children? Where shall we
> find the man of courage, the lone voice in the wilderness to cry out against
> Hanukah and the Judaism that it represents - the Judaism of our grandparents
> and ancestors?
>
> Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the Judaism
> of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of bigotry that strikes
> down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the Judaism of violence that calls
> for Jewish force and might against the enemy? When shall we find the courage
> to proudly eat our Chinese food and violate our Sabbaths and reject all the
> separateness, nationalism and religious maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly
> represents? Down with Hanukah! It is a regressive holiday that merely
> symbolizes the Judaism that always was; the Judaism that was handed down to
> us from Sinai; the Judaism that made our ancestors ready to give their lives
> for the L-rd; the Judaism that young people instinctively know is true and
> great and real. Such a Judaism is dangerous for us and our leaders. We must
> do all in our power to bury it.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Mon Dec  8 17:52:16 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:52:16 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations
Message-ID: <cd8.3fc3ca6b.366f0d30@aol.com>

Dear Hanoch - Shalom!
 
I can truly appreciate your note.  I want to take some time to digest  it as 
it obviously contains many important points.  Some things stand out.  You and 
I have talked for years and I do recall days gone by when our  differences 
prevented us from having true dialogue. Most of the points back then  that caused 
disagreement are still the ones that cause division between our  camps. I 
think that we are still in two camps - Mahanaim!
 
Your note caused me to give some thought to what is missing. I am still  
thinking....
 
Perhaps we can work together to do some of these discussions live on the  
internet. What if you and I did a live audio show where we could talk about some  
of these things. We do not have all the equipment that we need, but we could 
get  it if people were interested in this joint venture.
 
We could do a live talk show via telephone and webcast it. You could  
represent the view of most Jews and I could represent the views of most  Christians. 
Not sure that either of us represents the ideal, but we do know  where "our 
people" are coming from.
 
We could do a show where we talk about our different definitions of Torah.  
You could define Torah as the Torah of Moses + the oral Torah and then go on to 
 talk about why this is important (the Jewish View)...and I could give the 
view  of a written Torah only....(the Ephraim view).
 
We could have callers call us with their questions. 
 
Think of the impact if we could pull this off! 
 
I am not even sure what it would take to do this from a technology point,  
but I am sure that we could figure it out with some help.
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  8 17:52:40 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:52:40 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
In-Reply-To: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com><BLU125-DS5FD1AF8BD84A3C9184BE0BAFD0@phx.gbl>
	<493DA903.3070002@y7mail.com>
References: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com><BLU125-DS5FD1AF8BD84A3C9184BE0BAFD0@phx.gbl>
	<493DA903.3070002@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS37D98214425A87232E909BAFD0@phx.gbl>

I'm with you, Jessica.............simple is good!!!!

Love,

Pat


From: Vegemite Rose 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:08 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah


Indeed Pat, the Prophets and Writings are Torah driven and if we lived according to the ways of HaShem, what a wonderful world it would be. (even if only within our own utopian community)
Neither am I brave and unyielding to sin, but Pat, we are doing our best to live in the ways of HaShem in a world that doesn't care about it's Creator and is rapidly losing it's care for the value of life itself. Our world appears to be on the slippery slope of 'every man/woman/child for themselves'. Praise HaShem for the voice of the Prophets and for the continuance of the straight forward, no holds barred teachings of the martyred Rabbi Meir Kahane, and many others like him.  
Praise HaShem for the voice of The Synagogue Without Walls and its ability to reach all the way around our world and assist with the in-gathering of the Whole House Of Israel, and for its ability for us to communicate and lift each other up and spread the teachings of people such as the late Rabbi. 
As Joe will attest, I have been saying for a long time, that I believe the Torah to be a straight forward and simple message for how we, the Created, should live with each other and in relation to our Creator. I favour simplicity Pat. I find the more complicated the teachings of Torah become, the less interested I become in it. 
Again - praise to HaShem for Rabbi Meir Kahane's straight forward style. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the deeper meanings of Torah and it's greater purpose for the rectification of our world and the universe. However, if we all lived by the simple and pure ways of Torah, then the greater purpose would be accomplished - wouldn't it?
I'm glad you appreciate this article Pat - I hope others can also see the truth of it. 
Brachot v'Shalom
Jessica

Pat Robbins wrote: 
  This will shake you up!!!!  I applaud you, Jessica, for challenging us with Rabbi Meir Kahane's no-holds-barred teaching.  We have been conditioned to live in the gray areas, no longer recognizing the boundaries of black and white, right and wrong.  We have blurred the words of our Prophets until they've become politically correct enough to suit our behavior.  We have defaced the Holy Torah with our better, more "enlightened" and visionary dreams of a utopian society where hugs replace justice, and coldblooded murderers are released to kill again and again.

  We need to study very carefully all that the Torah, Prophets and Writings teach us, then act accordingly.

  I am not brave and unyielding to sin like Rabbi Kahane was.  I have comfortably settled into a monochromatic palette of gray...........but I want to change.  I want to follow HaShem at all costs.  I want to be so much better than I am.  Thank you for encouraging us, Jessica, with the teachings of this man who challenges one and all to follow G-d.

  Pat    


  From: Vegemite Rose 
  Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:15 AM
  To: Roots Of Faith Dialogue List 
  Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah


  Shalom to All,
  I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown away by his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be forgotten and may his teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land, the Torah, the Covenant and the Holy People.
  Blessings from Jessica

   


  Down With Hanukah
  By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l

  If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members of the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the barricades and join in battle against that most dangerous of all Jewish holidays - Hanukah.

  It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along with the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that stands for everything that the masses of world Jewry and their leadership has rejected - it is this one. If one would find an event that is truly rooted in everything that Jews of our times and their leaders have rejected and, indeed, attacked - it is this one. If there is any holiday that is more "un-Jewish" in the sense of our modern beliefs and practices - I do not know of it.

  The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract Christmas; that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our- goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children with eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that the Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so that the beaming parents might think that the Religious School is really successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it really is; the Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me- liberty-or-death and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal saviors who fought so that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to preach their Marx and eat their ham, that the split-level dwellers of suburbia might be allowed to violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom and the Reform and Conservative Temples continue to fight for civil rights for Blacks, Puerto Ricans and Jane Fonda, is not remotely connected with reality.

  This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. Truly, could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see what Hanukah has become, they might very well begin a second Maccabean revolt. For the life that we Jews lead today was the very cause, the real reason, for the revolt of the Jews "in those days in our times."

  What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a handful of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And precisely who was the enemy? What were they fighting for and who were they fighting against?

  For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, yet, the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek policy shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to suppress the Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its bloodiness. It was not mere liberty that led to the Maccabean uprising that we so passionately applaud. What we are really cheering is a brave group of Jews who fought and plunged Judea into a bloodbath for the right to observe the Sabbath, to follow the laws of kashrut, to obey the laws of the Torah. In a world where everything about Hanukah that we commemorate, and teach our children to commemorate, are things we consider to be outmoded, medieval and childish!

  At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have done what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are not really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not the Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative movements write this daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that which we violate every day of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges as a needless holiday if not a foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven children; poor Mattathias and Judah; poor well meaning chaps all - but hopelessly backward and utterly unnecessary sacrifices.

  But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at the hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children portray so cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants, was not a Greek. He was a Jew.

  When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and demand its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom of pagan worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After all, what business was it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And it was this Jew, this apostate, this religious traitor who was struck down by the brave, glorious, courageous, (are these not the words all our Sunday schools use to describe him) Mattathias, as he shouted: "Whoever is for G-d, follow me!"

  What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry? What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair, the graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, the liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us unto death with the concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded, undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to honor? What kind of nationalism is this for Shimon Peres (he who rejects the 'Galut' and speaks of the proud, free Jew of ancient Judea and Israel)?

  And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who reacted to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have deplored Jewish violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- Jewish, stand in horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket the Syrian Greeks to death and who rejected quiet diplomacy for the sword, spear and arrow (had there been bombs in those days, who can tell what they might have done?) and "descended to the level of 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical and moral concepts of Judaism.

  Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is this the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our children? Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in the wilderness to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it represents - the Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?

  Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of bigotry that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the Judaism of violence that calls for Jewish force and might against the enemy? When shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese food and violate our Sabbaths and reject all the separateness, nationalism and religious maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly represents? Down with Hanukah! It is a regressive holiday that merely symbolizes the Judaism that always was; the Judaism that was handed down to us from Sinai; the Judaism that made our ancestors ready to give their lives for the L-rd; the Judaism that young people instinctively know is true and great and real. Such a Judaism is dangerous for us and our leaders. We must do all in our power to bury it.



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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Dec  8 18:26:49 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:26:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations
In-Reply-To: <cd8.3fc3ca6b.366f0d30@aol.com>
References: <cd8.3fc3ca6b.366f0d30@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B6662299-07C5-4390-B0F7-5D775AFC5451@earthlink.net>

What a fantastic idea...

James


On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:52 PM, rndavar at aol.com wrote:

> Dear Hanoch - Shalom!
>
> I can truly appreciate your note.  I want to take some time to  
> digest it as it obviously contains many important points.  Some  
> things stand out. You and I have talked for years and I do recall  
> days gone by when our differences prevented us from having true  
> dialogue. Most of the points back then that caused disagreement are  
> still the ones that cause division between our camps. I think that  
> we are still in two camps - Mahanaim!
>
> Your note caused me to give some thought to what is missing. I am  
> still thinking....
>
> Perhaps we can work together to do some of these discussions live on  
> the internet. What if you and I did a live audio show where we could  
> talk about some of these things. We do not have all the equipment  
> that we need, but we could get it if people were interested in this  
> joint venture.
>
> We could do a live talk show via telephone and webcast it. You could  
> represent the view of most Jews and I could represent the views of  
> most Christians. Not sure that either of us represents the ideal,  
> but we do know where "our people" are coming from.
>
> We could do a show where we talk about our different definitions of  
> Torah. You could define Torah as the Torah of Moses + the oral Torah  
> and then go on to talk about why this is important (the Jewish  
> View)...and I could give the view of a written Torah only....(the  
> Ephraim view).
>
> We could have callers call us with their questions.
>
> Think of the impact if we could pull this off!
>
> I am not even sure what it would take to do this from a technology  
> point, but I am sure that we could figure it out with some help.
>
> Ross K. Nichols
> www.RootsofFaith.org
>
>
>
>
> Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite  
> sites in one place. Try it now.
> _______________________________________________

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Mon Dec  8 19:50:30 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:50:30 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Synagogue Without Walls
Message-ID: <c89.3b3b94c7.366f28e6@aol.com>

I logged in an hour or so ago to the Synagogue Without Walls site and saw  an 
error message that alarmed me. It is even more troubling since Barry  Mani
low's site seemed to be okay while mine was affected:)
 
Well, now it appears that there was a problem with the main server and  
maintenance is being performed on all networks.  I pray that all is well as  I am 
beginning to like the site and many others are as well.
 
Sorry if you are a Manilow fan....it was only a joke.  I need to study  
anyway. I am working on two of the main points for my class next Sunday. One  hint:
 
If you have not yet adopted a Biblical diet all I can tell you is that this  
week may be your last week to eat things unclean with a clear 
conscious....yes,  even if you are not Jewish:)
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Mon Dec  8 19:58:12 2008
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 12:28:12 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Synagogue Without Walls
In-Reply-To: <c89.3b3b94c7.366f28e6@aol.com>
References: <c89.3b3b94c7.366f28e6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <493DD0B4.9030905@y7mail.com>

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Mon Dec  8 20:01:39 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:01:39 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Synagogue Without Walls
Message-ID: <d3c.335bc4d8.366f2b83@aol.com>

 
 
In a message dated 12/8/2008 7:59:37 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
vegemiterose at y7mail.com writes:

And what's wrong with Barry Manilow???  Hmph!
Jessica



You know that all guys really love his music Jessica, they just don't  admit 
it in public. His site is down by the way....
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Mon Dec  8 20:35:45 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 20:35:45 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
In-Reply-To: <493DA903.3070002@y7mail.com>
References: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com>	<BLU125-DS5FD1AF8BD84A3C9184BE0BAFD0@phx.gbl>
	<493DA903.3070002@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <493DD981.3020805@gninc.ca>

Shalom Jessica, Pat and anyone interested. Baruch Hashem it is so 
uplifting to read and learn from people who love truth and 
righteousness. I fully agree with what you have been sharing. I have 
read some of Rabbi Meir Kahane's books. They are so good. I sometimes 
get quite disheartened at myself when I find how much I have missed 
throughout life. When all along I had been thinking I wanted nothing but 
the truth, even as a Christian.

It was only after I finally realized that I could learn far more from 
Judaism than anywhere else, that I became aware of it to be possible to 
become an overcomer. It has been so humiliating yet so rewarding, even 
after years of studying Judaism now, how far I still had come off track 
from the ways of Hashem. One thing especially being shalom beis, (peace 
in the home). Yes i have a challenge living together with a Bi-polar 
strong willed Christian wife, now for over 50 years. And she has all of 
our 8 children on her side, in the church. But now, finally, only 
starting the last couple of years, I can see her meant for me, a 
suitable partner exactly for me. A beautiful gift, just what I needed 
for a correction of my own soul!!!! Life is pleasant living with her 
once I learn to be a man, (not with a feminine mentality) Only in 
Judaism I am finally learning that it is up to a man to give of himself. 
Yes give, give, give, without expecting to receive. And the situations 
just turn around like magic. Some times they don't even seem to change. 
But nevertheless, that is good exercise. It now re-leaves me of so much 
un-necessary pain of grief and getting offended. Even when I am 
misunderstood so often. But it makes a world of a difference how a *man* 
responds!!!!!!

I am studying a book by the title "The Garden of Peace" A marriage guide 
*for men only.* It was an interesting observation just recently when I 
introduced this book to one of my sons. He is married to a nice woman of 
good character, they have a nice family of 4 children, and a fairly good 
shalom bais in their home, that is, for a Christian home. But he was 
curious and wondered if he could learn something from a Jewish 
perspective. But he did not get through reading it and gave it back to 
me commenting  even though very carefully, " That book just has too much 
of *The Law *in it". A Christian does not need to be under the law, like 
a Jew, is what he was trying to tell me. It is so sad that Christians 
don't realize how liberating the way's of Hashem's *Laws* really are.

We have Bi-polar among our children too, Jamie, our only grandson who 
really starts to respect what I believe, is 16, the son of our youngest 
son Ruben, who is very seriously Bi-polar. Otherwise popular in society. 
But Jamie already is far more reasonable to deal with when approached in 
the ways of Hashem than his rigid dad. Jamie has suffered seriously 
under the tutorship of his dad, to the point of rebelling against the 
system, seeing Christianity as a very shallow faith to live by. And as a 
result he just about gave up faith in Hashem. Or even the god of 
Christianity. But, Baruch Hashem, I had an opportunity to take him to a 
Chabad house in Winnipeg on Shabat, and we were invited into a Jewish 
home after that, who were an old acquaintance of mine from the time I 
used to go to the Synagogue there. A couple of weeks prior to this, I 
took him to the synagogue on his own request. Jamie is doing fine now, 
getting out of  the prison of religion. He resides in a Foster home and 
takes grade 10 in  a Public school. I have told him over and over, don't 
follow me but rather make your own choice. At one point he actually told 
me he appreciated it that I was giving him that choice. His foster home 
is a Christian Pastors home, but not so much a boxed in Mennonitism. The 
challenges are quite strong in an atmosphere where he has had no prior 
roots of experience to guide him except the constant reminder of his 
health issue because of his kidney transplant 3 years ago. He is 
constantly under medication. And I am so grateful for all of you who 
have offered prayers for him. Please keep it up if you feel so inclined.

Shalom

Cornie



Vegemite Rose wrote:
> Indeed Pat, the Prophets and Writings are Torah driven and if we lived 
> according to the ways of HaShem, what a wonderful world it would be. 
> /(even if only within our own utopian community)
> /Neither am I brave and unyielding to sin, but Pat, we are doing our 
> best to live in the ways of HaShem in a world that doesn't care about 
> it's Creator and is rapidly losing it's care for the value of life 
> itself. Our world appears to be on the slippery slope of 'every 
> man/woman/child for themselves'. Praise HaShem for the voice of the 
> Prophets and for the continuance of the straight forward, no holds 
> barred teachings of the martyred Rabbi Meir Kahane, and many others 
> like him. 
> Praise HaShem for the voice of The Synagogue Without Walls and its 
> ability to reach all the way around our world and assist with the 
> in-gathering of the Whole House Of Israel, and for its ability for us 
> to communicate and lift each other up and spread the teachings of 
> people such as the late Rabbi.
> As Joe will attest, I have been saying for a long time, that I believe 
> the Torah to be a straight forward and simple message for how we, the 
> Created, should live with each other and in relation to our Creator. I 
> favour simplicity Pat. I find the more complicated the teachings of 
> Torah become, the less interested I become in it.
> Again - praise to HaShem for Rabbi Meir Kahane's straight forward 
> style. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the deeper meanings 
> of Torah and it's greater purpose for the rectification of our world 
> and the universe. However, if we all lived by the simple and pure ways 
> of Torah, then the greater purpose would be accomplished - wouldn't it?
> I'm glad you appreciate this article Pat - I hope others can also see 
> the truth of it.
> Brachot v'Shalom
> Jessica
>
> Pat Robbins wrote:
>> This will shake you up!!!!  I applaud you, Jessica, for challenging 
>> us with Rabbi Meir Kahane's no-holds-barred teaching.  We have been 
>> conditioned to live in the gray areas, no longer recognizing the 
>> boundaries of black and white, right and wrong.  We have blurred the 
>> words of our Prophets until they've become politically correct enough 
>> to suit our behavior.  We have defaced the Holy Torah with our 
>> better, more "enlightened" and visionary dreams of a utopian society 
>> where hugs replace justice, and coldblooded murderers are released to 
>> kill again and again.
>>  
>> We need to study very carefully all that the Torah, Prophets and 
>> Writings teach us, then act accordingly.
>>  
>> I am not brave and unyielding to sin like Rabbi Kahane was.  I have 
>> comfortably settled into a monochromatic palette of 
>> gray...........but I want to change.  I want to follow HaShem at all 
>> costs.  I want to be so much better than I am.  Thank you for 
>> encouraging us, Jessica, with the teachings of this man who 
>> challenges one and all to follow G-d.
>>  
>> Pat   
>>
>> *From:* Vegemite Rose <mailto:vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 08, 2008 12:15 AM
>> *To:* Roots Of Faith Dialogue List <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>
>> /Shalom to All,
>> I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown away 
>> by his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be forgotten and 
>> may his teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land, the Torah, the 
>> Covenant and the Holy People.
>> Blessings from Jessica/
>>
>>  
>>
>> *Down With Hanukah
>> By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l*
>>
>> If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment 
>> whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the 
>> leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members 
>> of the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened 
>> sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the 
>> barricades and join in battle against that most dangerous of all 
>> Jewish holidays - Hanukah.
>>
>> It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community 
>> that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the 
>> "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual 
>> dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along 
>> with the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that stands for 
>> everything that the masses of world Jewry and their leadership has 
>> rejected - it is this one. If one would find an event that is truly 
>> rooted in everything that Jews of our times and their leaders have 
>> rejected and, indeed, attacked - it is this one. If there is any 
>> holiday that is more "un-Jewish" in the sense of our modern beliefs 
>> and practices - I do not know of it.
>>
>> The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its 
>> childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the 
>> Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish 
>> parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract 
>> Christmas; that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our- 
>> goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children 
>> with eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that 
>> the Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so 
>> that the beaming parents might think that the Religious School is 
>> really successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it really 
>> is; the Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me- 
>> liberty-or-death and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal 
>> saviors who fought so that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to 
>> preach their Marx and eat their ham, that the split-level dwellers of 
>> suburbia might be allowed to violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom 
>> and the Reform and Conservative Temples continue to fight for civil 
>> rights for Blacks, Puerto Ricans and Jane Fonda, is not remotely 
>> connected with reality.
>>
>> This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews 
>> of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is 
>> surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. 
>> Truly, could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see what 
>> Hanukah has become, they might very well begin a second Maccabean 
>> revolt. For the life that we Jews lead today was the very cause, the 
>> real reason, for the revolt of the Jews "in those days in our times."
>>
>> What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a 
>> handful of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And 
>> precisely who was the enemy? What were they fighting for and who were 
>> they fighting against?
>>
>> For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True 
>> independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, 
>> yet, the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek 
>> policy shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to 
>> suppress the Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its 
>> bloodiness. It was not mere liberty that led to the Maccabean 
>> uprising that we so passionately applaud. What we are really cheering 
>> is a brave group of Jews who fought and plunged Judea into a 
>> bloodbath for the right to observe the Sabbath, to follow the laws of 
>> kashrut, to obey the laws of the Torah. In a world where everything 
>> about Hanukah that we commemorate, and teach our children to 
>> commemorate, are things we consider to be outmoded, medieval and 
>> childish!
>>
>> At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and 
>> obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have 
>> done what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are 
>> not really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not 
>> the Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative 
>> movements write this daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that 
>> which we violate every day of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges 
>> as a needless holiday if not a foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven 
>> children; poor Mattathias and Judah; poor well meaning chaps all - 
>> but hopelessly backward and utterly unnecessary sacrifices.
>>
>> But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and 
>> unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and 
>> illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at 
>> the hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children 
>> portray so cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants, 
>> was not a Greek. He was a Jew.
>>
>> When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and 
>> demand its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom 
>> of pagan worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After 
>> all, what business was it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And 
>> it was this Jew, this apostate, this religious traitor who was struck 
>> down by the brave, glorious, courageous, (are these not the words all 
>> our Sunday schools use to describe him) Mattathias, as he shouted: 
>> "Whoever is for G-d, follow me!"
>>
>> What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry? 
>> What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair, 
>> the graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, 
>> the liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us 
>> unto death with the concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded, 
>> undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to 
>> honor? What kind of nationalism is this for Shimon Peres (he who 
>> rejects the 'Galut' and speaks of the proud, free Jew of ancient 
>> Judea and Israel)?
>>
>> And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of 
>> peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who 
>> reacted to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have 
>> deplored Jewish violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- 
>> Jewish, stand in horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket 
>> the Syrian Greeks to death and who rejected quiet diplomacy for the 
>> sword, spear and arrow (had there been bombs in those days, who can 
>> tell what they might have done?) and "descended to the level of 
>> 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical and moral concepts of Judaism.
>>
>> Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the 
>> kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is 
>> this the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our 
>> children? Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in 
>> the wilderness to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it 
>> represents - the Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?
>>
>> Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the 
>> Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of 
>> bigotry that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the 
>> Judaism of violence that calls for Jewish force and might against the 
>> enemy? When shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese food 
>> and violate our Sabbaths and reject all the separateness, nationalism 
>> and religious maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly represents? Down 
>> with Hanukah! It is a regressive holiday that merely symbolizes the 
>> Judaism that always was; the Judaism that was handed down to us from 
>> Sinai; the Judaism that made our ancestors ready to give their lives 
>> for the L-rd; the Judaism that young people instinctively know is 
>> true and great and real. Such a Judaism is dangerous for us and our 
>> leaders. We must do all in our power to bury it.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Mon Dec  8 20:53:13 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 20:53:13 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephramite Expectations
In-Reply-To: <B6662299-07C5-4390-B0F7-5D775AFC5451@earthlink.net>
References: <cd8.3fc3ca6b.366f0d30@aol.com>
	<B6662299-07C5-4390-B0F7-5D775AFC5451@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <493DDD99.7020809@gninc.ca>

Amen!!!  I would be interested to listen in and learn.

 Say James I am just about done reading your book "RESTORING ABRAHAMIC 
FAITH" I was a bit hesitant to order it. But I am so glad I did.  That 
is so good. I respected your views before already. But it seems to me 
you  must have done a fair bit of research in your life, to find the 
truth. I am not saying that you and I don't have more to learn. Some 
time I would like to read more of your books.

Shalom

Cornie


James Tabor wrote:
> What a fantastic idea...
>
> James
>
>
> On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:52 PM, rndavar at aol.com <mailto:rndavar at aol.com> 
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Hanoch - Shalom!
>>  
>> I can truly appreciate your note.  I want to take some time to digest 
>> it as it obviously contains many important points.  Some things stand 
>> out. You and I have talked for years and I do recall days gone by 
>> when our differences prevented us from having true dialogue. Most of 
>> the points back then that caused disagreement are still the ones that 
>> cause division between our camps. I think that we are still in two 
>> camps - Mahanaim!
>>  
>> Your note caused me to give some thought to what is missing. I am 
>> still thinking....
>>  
>> Perhaps we can work together to do some of these discussions live on 
>> the internet. What if you and I did a live audio show where we could 
>> talk about some of these things. We do not have all the equipment 
>> that we need, but we could get it if people were interested in this 
>> joint venture.
>>  
>> We could do a live talk show via telephone and webcast it. You could 
>> represent the view of most Jews and I could represent the views of 
>> most Christians. Not sure that either of us represents the ideal, but 
>> we do know where "our people" are coming from.
>>  
>> We could do a show where we talk about our different definitions of 
>> Torah. You could define Torah as the Torah of Moses + the oral Torah 
>> and then go on to talk about why this is important (the Jewish 
>> View)...and I could give the view of a written Torah only....(the 
>> Ephraim view).
>>  
>> We could have callers call us with their questions.
>>  
>> Think of the impact if we could pull this off!
>>  
>> I am not even sure what it would take to do this from a technology 
>> point, but I am sure that we could figure it out with some help.
>>  
>> *Ross K. Nichols *
>> www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite 
>> sites in one place. Try it now 
>> <http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010>. 
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon Dec  8 20:59:31 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:59:31 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Restoring Abrahamic Faith Update
In-Reply-To: <493DDD99.7020809@gninc.ca>
References: <cd8.3fc3ca6b.366f0d30@aol.com>
	<B6662299-07C5-4390-B0F7-5D775AFC5451@earthlink.net>
	<493DDD99.7020809@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <C451E22C-864C-4353-84E8-DAEEED1D22EF@earthlink.net>

Thanks Cornie, I am glad to hear you have benefited from it. Here is a  
little report on RAF that I just wrote up that I will pass on to you  
and others on the Dialogue list:


> I am really encouraged this week with the various responses I am  
> getting to Restoring Abrahamic Faith. I wanted to share with you  
> all. I think slowly people are reading it and passing on the word,  
> mouth to mouth, plus others are ordering more copies, having gotten  
> their first one and read it, to pass on to others.
>
> I had a Christian minister write me, who believes in Jesus as  
> Messiah and Savior, and he is ordering 60 copies to pass out to  
> everyone he knows. Even though he realizes the book is not  
> explicitly "Christian," in terms of identifying who the Davidic  
> messiah might be, he was so taken with the One God message, and the  
> basic emphasis on recovering Hebraic faith, that Yeshua surely had,  
> he wants to get this word out. Folks, this is a pastor of a church.  
> I was rather blown away that this would be my largest "outside"  
> order of the book to date.
>
> In the meantime I heard from Vendyl and Anita Jones who have read  
> the book, loved it, and have ordered 25 copies. They asked me to  
> inscribe personally each one, which I am glad to do, and they are  
> giving them to everyone they know and care about--friends,  
> relatives, associated.
>
> I just got this nice endorsement from Mike Dallen of  
> rainbowcoveant.org, a Web site I mention in the book and highly  
> recommend: -- Restoring Abrahamic Faith, by James D. Tabor; revised  
> 3rd edition, 2008 (Genesis 2000, Charlotte, North Carolina).  
> Softcover, 171 pages. We have a long friendly relationship with Dr.  
> Tabor, and he speaks very positively of TRC here, but we would still  
> be calling this terrific little book a "must read" even if we hated  
> him (God forbid). We love this book because it takes the Bible  
> completely seriously, explores it fearlessly, following the text  
> itself, and other sources, and explains things - including, e.g.,  
> the nature and early history of Christianity, but also many aspects  
> of the Torah Tradition itself - directly, simply, and (best of all)  
> honestly. This is an open-hearted, large-souled book, very American,  
> in its way, which convincingly explains why the whole human race  
> needs to re-think the Bible and restore the ancient faith of Abraham.
>
> Another woman in TX ordered 24 copies just last week to give to  
> friends and family.
>
> Just today our own Jeanne Rees wrote me that she would like order 12  
> copies to give away. Jeanne is such an amazing person in that she  
> has probably spread more copies around of this book over the years  
> than anyone I can think of. Her income is limited but she wants to  
> pass these around to friends and associates.
>
> I continue to hear from others, inside our circles and outside. Dear  
> Amy Suoz wrote me the most wonderfully encouraging note this week,  
> telling me she had finished the book, was amazingly moved, and  
> planned to order more as well. Many others have written similar  
> things.
>
> In terms of costs we have tried to make the book as reasonable as  
> possible. $15 is a fair price for a book of this quality and size,  
> and we have not gotten even half our initial printing costs back  
> yet, though I have no doubt we will in time. Once we break even any  
> profits will just go into printing more copies, so things will  
> continually multiply.
>
> We can offer multiple copies at reduced prices and if you are  
> interested see: http://genesis2000.org/order-information/
>
> Take care and best to all,
>
> James
>
On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:53 PM, Cornie Reimer wrote:

> Amen!!!  I would be interested to listen in and learn.
>
>  Say James I am just about done reading your book "RESTORING  
> ABRAHAMIC FAITH" I was a bit hesitant to order it. But I am so glad  
> I did.  That is so good. I respected your views before already. But  
> it seems to me you  must have done a fair bit of research in your  
> life, to find the truth. I am not saying that you and I don't have  
> more to learn. Some time I would like to read more of your books.
>
> Shalom
>
> Cornie
>

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  8 21:03:54 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:03:54 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
In-Reply-To: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com>	<BLU125-DS5FD1AF8BD84A3C9184BE0BAFD0@phx.gbl><493DA903.3070002@y7mail.com>
	<493DD981.3020805@gninc.ca>
References: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com>	<BLU125-DS5FD1AF8BD84A3C9184BE0BAFD0@phx.gbl><493DA903.3070002@y7mail.com>
	<493DD981.3020805@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS204497B91E37F7893CB61BAFA0@phx.gbl>

Of course we feel inclined to keep up our prayers for Jamie, Cornie!  It's so great to hear how he is progressing.  Thank you for this email.  (It also blesses me to hear the good reports of your marriage.)

Love,

Pat


From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:35 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah


Shalom Jessica, Pat and anyone interested. Baruch Hashem it is so uplifting to read and learn from people who love truth and righteousness. I fully agree with what you have been sharing. I have read some of Rabbi Meir Kahane's books. They are so good. I sometimes get quite disheartened at myself when I find how much I have missed throughout life. When all along I had been thinking I wanted nothing but the truth, even as a Christian.

It was only after I finally realized that I could learn far more from Judaism than anywhere else, that I became aware of it to be possible to become an overcomer. It has been so humiliating yet so rewarding, even after years of studying Judaism now, how far I still had come off track from the ways of Hashem. One thing especially being shalom beis, (peace in the home). Yes i have a challenge living together with a Bi-polar strong willed Christian wife, now for over 50 years. And she has all of our 8 children on her side, in the church. But now, finally, only starting the last couple of years, I can see her meant for me, a suitable partner exactly for me. A beautiful gift, just what I needed for a correction of my own soul!!!! Life is pleasant living with her once I learn to be a man, (not with a feminine mentality) Only in Judaism I am finally learning that it is up to a man to give of himself. Yes give, give, give, without expecting to receive. And the situations just turn around like magic. Some times they don't even seem to change. But nevertheless, that is good exercise. It now re-leaves me of so much un-necessary pain of grief and getting offended. Even when I am misunderstood so often. But it makes a world of a difference how a man responds!!!!!! 

I am studying a book by the title "The Garden of Peace" A marriage guide for men only. It was an interesting observation just recently when I introduced this book to one of my sons. He is married to a nice woman of good character, they have a nice family of 4 children, and a fairly good shalom bais in their home, that is, for a Christian home. But he was curious and wondered if he could learn something from a Jewish perspective. But he did not get through reading it and gave it back to me commenting  even though very carefully, " That book just has too much of The Law in it". A Christian does not need to be under the law, like a Jew, is what he was trying to tell me. It is so sad that Christians don't realize how liberating the way's of Hashem's Laws really are.

We have Bi-polar among our children too, Jamie, our only grandson who really starts to respect what I believe, is 16, the son of our youngest son Ruben, who is very seriously Bi-polar. Otherwise popular in society. But Jamie already is far more reasonable to deal with when approached in the ways of Hashem than his rigid dad. Jamie has suffered seriously under the tutorship of his dad, to the point of rebelling against the system, seeing Christianity as a very shallow faith to live by. And as a result he just about gave up faith in Hashem. Or even the god of Christianity. But, Baruch Hashem, I had an opportunity to take him to a Chabad house in Winnipeg on Shabat, and we were invited into a Jewish home after that, who were an old acquaintance of mine from the time I used to go to the Synagogue there. A couple of weeks prior to this, I took him to the synagogue on his own request. Jamie is doing fine now, getting out of  the prison of religion. He resides in a Foster home and takes grade 10 in  a Public school. I have told him over and over, don't follow me but rather make your own choice. At one point he actually told me he appreciated it that I was giving him that choice. His foster home is a Christian Pastors home, but not so much a boxed in Mennonitism. The challenges are quite strong in an atmosphere where he has had no prior roots of experience to guide him except the constant reminder of his health issue because of his kidney transplant 3 years ago. He is constantly under medication. And I am so grateful for all of you who have offered prayers for him. Please keep it up if you feel so inclined.

Shalom

Cornie



Vegemite Rose wrote: 
  Indeed Pat, the Prophets and Writings are Torah driven and if we lived according to the ways of HaShem, what a wonderful world it would be. (even if only within our own utopian community)
  Neither am I brave and unyielding to sin, but Pat, we are doing our best to live in the ways of HaShem in a world that doesn't care about it's Creator and is rapidly losing it's care for the value of life itself. Our world appears to be on the slippery slope of 'every man/woman/child for themselves'. Praise HaShem for the voice of the Prophets and for the continuance of the straight forward, no holds barred teachings of the martyred Rabbi Meir Kahane, and many others like him.  
  Praise HaShem for the voice of The Synagogue Without Walls and its ability to reach all the way around our world and assist with the in-gathering of the Whole House Of Israel, and for its ability for us to communicate and lift each other up and spread the teachings of people such as the late Rabbi. 
  As Joe will attest, I have been saying for a long time, that I believe the Torah to be a straight forward and simple message for how we, the Created, should live with each other and in relation to our Creator. I favour simplicity Pat. I find the more complicated the teachings of Torah become, the less interested I become in it. 
  Again - praise to HaShem for Rabbi Meir Kahane's straight forward style. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the deeper meanings of Torah and it's greater purpose for the rectification of our world and the universe. However, if we all lived by the simple and pure ways of Torah, then the greater purpose would be accomplished - wouldn't it?
  I'm glad you appreciate this article Pat - I hope others can also see the truth of it. 
  Brachot v'Shalom
  Jessica

  Pat Robbins wrote: 
    This will shake you up!!!!  I applaud you, Jessica, for challenging us with Rabbi Meir Kahane's no-holds-barred teaching.  We have been conditioned to live in the gray areas, no longer recognizing the boundaries of black and white, right and wrong.  We have blurred the words of our Prophets until they've become politically correct enough to suit our behavior.  We have defaced the Holy Torah with our better, more "enlightened" and visionary dreams of a utopian society where hugs replace justice, and coldblooded murderers are released to kill again and again.

    We need to study very carefully all that the Torah, Prophets and Writings teach us, then act accordingly.

    I am not brave and unyielding to sin like Rabbi Kahane was.  I have comfortably settled into a monochromatic palette of gray...........but I want to change.  I want to follow HaShem at all costs.  I want to be so much better than I am.  Thank you for encouraging us, Jessica, with the teachings of this man who challenges one and all to follow G-d.

    Pat    


    From: Vegemite Rose 
    Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:15 AM
    To: Roots Of Faith Dialogue List 
    Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah


    Shalom to All,
    I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown away by his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be forgotten and may his teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land, the Torah, the Covenant and the Holy People.
    Blessings from Jessica

     


    Down With Hanukah
    By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l

    If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members of the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the barricades and join in battle against that most dangerous of all Jewish holidays - Hanukah.

    It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along with the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that stands for everything that the masses of world Jewry and their leadership has rejected - it is this one. If one would find an event that is truly rooted in everything that Jews of our times and their leaders have rejected and, indeed, attacked - it is this one. If there is any holiday that is more "un-Jewish" in the sense of our modern beliefs and practices - I do not know of it.

    The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract Christmas; that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our- goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children with eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that the Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so that the beaming parents might think that the Religious School is really successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it really is; the Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me- liberty-or-death and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal saviors who fought so that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to preach their Marx and eat their ham, that the split-level dwellers of suburbia might be allowed to violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom and the Reform and Conservative Temples continue to fight for civil rights for Blacks, Puerto Ricans and Jane Fonda, is not remotely connected with reality.

    This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. Truly, could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see what Hanukah has become, they might very well begin a second Maccabean revolt. For the life that we Jews lead today was the very cause, the real reason, for the revolt of the Jews "in those days in our times."

    What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a handful of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And precisely who was the enemy? What were they fighting for and who were they fighting against?

    For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, yet, the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek policy shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to suppress the Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its bloodiness. It was not mere liberty that led to the Maccabean uprising that we so passionately applaud. What we are really cheering is a brave group of Jews who fought and plunged Judea into a bloodbath for the right to observe the Sabbath, to follow the laws of kashrut, to obey the laws of the Torah. In a world where everything about Hanukah that we commemorate, and teach our children to commemorate, are things we consider to be outmoded, medieval and childish!

    At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have done what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are not really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not the Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative movements write this daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that which we violate every day of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges as a needless holiday if not a foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven children; poor Mattathias and Judah; poor well meaning chaps all - but hopelessly backward and utterly unnecessary sacrifices.

    But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at the hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children portray so cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants, was not a Greek. He was a Jew.

    When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and demand its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom of pagan worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After all, what business was it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And it was this Jew, this apostate, this religious traitor who was struck down by the brave, glorious, courageous, (are these not the words all our Sunday schools use to describe him) Mattathias, as he shouted: "Whoever is for G-d, follow me!"

    What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry? What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair, the graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, the liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us unto death with the concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded, undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to honor? What kind of nationalism is this for Shimon Peres (he who rejects the 'Galut' and speaks of the proud, free Jew of ancient Judea and Israel)?

    And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who reacted to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have deplored Jewish violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- Jewish, stand in horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket the Syrian Greeks to death and who rejected quiet diplomacy for the sword, spear and arrow (had there been bombs in those days, who can tell what they might have done?) and "descended to the level of 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical and moral concepts of Judaism.

    Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is this the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our children? Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in the wilderness to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it represents - the Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?

    Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of bigotry that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the Judaism of violence that calls for Jewish force and might against the enemy? When shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese food and violate our Sabbaths and reject all the separateness, nationalism and religious maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly represents? Down with Hanukah! It is a regressive holiday that merely symbolizes the Judaism that always was; the Judaism that was handed down to us from Sinai; the Judaism that made our ancestors ready to give their lives for the L-rd; the Judaism that young people instinctively know is true and great and real. Such a Judaism is dangerous for us and our leaders. We must do all in our power to bury it.


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From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Mon Dec  8 21:52:56 2008
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:22:56 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
In-Reply-To: <493DD981.3020805@gninc.ca>
References: <493CAD7B.8000004@y7mail.com>	<BLU125-DS5FD1AF8BD84A3C9184BE0BAFD0@phx.gbl>	<493DA903.3070002@y7mail.com>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 07:37:22 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 05:37:22 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] An article I TOTALLY relate to....
Message-ID: <855590370812090537v43fbe65aj8faea53ab8688bab@mail.gmail.com>

    Home <http://www.breslev.co.il/default.aspx?language=english>Society<http://www.breslev.co.il/categories/society.aspx?category=29&pageid=1&language=english>Jewish
World<http://www.breslev.co.il/categories/society/jewish_world.aspx?category=39&pageid=1&language=english>Will
Moshiach Do My Job?     [image: Will Moshiach Do My Job?]
By: Bob Blue<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=bob+blue&type=1&fullType=authors&language=English>
  [image: Email This Article]  [image: Print version]

I am concerned about Jews in America. They just will not listen.  When I
tell people what is coming the "wise ones" just smile tolerantly behind
their hand at my utter foolishness and go on about the business of seeing to
their comfort and their wealth. Israel thought the Prophet a foolish person
too, if I recall. Until they awoke one morning to the blood-thirsty horde of
looters and rapists outside the walls. A few months later they were cooking
and eating their own children.
The signs are there for anyone willing to see. When the pretext of 9-11 came
along and gave us "Homeland Security" and the "Patriot Act" I saw the end of
the road where that will lead. I understood that "muslim extremists" would
not be the final victims of these evil laws. I understood that rights, once
usurped by government, are forever lost. I understood that, just as in Nazi
Germany, the suspension of judicial oversight over powers of arrest,
detention and seizure will be expanded beyond the stated pretext for their
creation to eventually be used for any purpose the government deems
expedient. I understood that from that day forward a defacto police state,
just like in Nazi Germany, already exists in Amerika, regardless of whether
the government chooses to openly so conduct itself at this time.

I predicted the collapse of the housing and financial markets eight years
before the ostriches saw it coming. I looked at the signs and I saw it
coming. I perceived and understood the fraudulent way the Amerikan
government dupes the public, propping up the appearance of a healthy economy
by manipulating the reporting of selected "indicators". I saw and understood
how a fantasy perception of "economic growth" is generated and continually
perpetuated by the fraud of allowing ever more extensive and
uncollateralized credit use by individuals, business and government. I
understood the unsustainability and the unavoidable collapse of a system
that allows everyone to perpetually spend more than they take in. I saw and
understood the implication of allowing mega-business to move their
operations "off-shore" so that ever more currency is siphoned off from
circulation in the American economy. I saw and understood the implication of
the government printing wads more money than it takes in, just as in Nazi
Germany, to pay for programs it can't afford like the occupation and
subjugation of foreign lands and to dole out billions that it does not have
for "economic stimulus". I understood and I saw the inevitability of the
"crisis".

In America the ignorant and unperceptive say, "Prices have risen too high".
The government encourages that false perception to divert public eyes from
the truth. The truth is that the government is ravenously stealing from the
people by just printing up and spending whatever money it wants without
regard to its income. The simple economic truth is that prices have not
"gone up" but rather "money has gone down". The truth is that the government
is selling out the people by prostituting itself to serve mega-business
contrary to the interests of the people.

When this huge fraud inevitably collapses there will be hordes of angry,
suffering, hungry people looking for someone to blame, looking for someone
to punish. It is absolutely certain that those in government are not going
to take the blame for this. Someone, however, will take the blame and pay
the price and history tells us who that someone will be. If the Jews of
Amerika have not learned anything from the Germany of the Holocaust, I have.
Jews are always the scapegoat.



*Photo, above - Jews being paraded and ridiculed through German streets,
1938. Could the same thing happen in America?*

The more things change, the more they remain the same. The Jews of Germany
had the same sure warnings as ancient Israel had. They chose self-deception,
"That can't happen here", and did not flee. Hashem permitted them the fate
they chose. The Jews of Germany ignored the unpleasant fact of Amalek's
return and went to their doom.

Amalek is back and this time it is the ostrich Jews of Amerika who have
their heads stuck in the sand. Amalek will not stay his hand from evil
because we wish it so. All the same signs are there for the Jews of Amerika
that were there for the Jews of Germany. Like the Jews of Germany, the Jews
of Amerika refuse to see. Once again the dark spirit of Amalek is
marshalling the evil might of a world with no love for Jews for one more
onslaught in evil's perpetual resolve to eradicate the Jews.

Like the Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika have clogged their ears
against the din of the approaching hell-storm. Like the Jews of Germany, the
Jews of Amerika deceive themselves with the same wishful thought, "Things
are different now. This is America. We are safe. That could never happen
here." Like the Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika are wrong. Like the
Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika will suffer destruction in an
implacable wave of unbearable agony and torment, G-d forbid.

This is the fate of the Jews of Amerika as things stand, though it need not
be so. We know that teshuva and tefilla can reverse the evil decree. Our
history is replete with proof that we can turn from sin to Hashem and Torah
and Hashem will rescue us from evil decrees. Even without teshuva it is
possible for us to stand invincible before our enemies. As Rav Shalom Arush
points out, "When the Jews worshiped idols but remained united, They went to
war and won." So, the fate of the Jews of Amerika is not set in stone. There
is always the possibility that they will open their eyes and do teshuva
before Hashem. There is always the possibility that they will throw aside
the petty denominational differences and stand as one.

Still, I would rather not wait around to see. I want out. If I am to suffer
or be martyred let it be standing on Holy Eretz Israel. If I am to have joy
and abundance let it be standing on Holy Eretz Israel.

It is not only the Jews of Amerika I lament for. I see the evil gathering
itself against our Holy Land. I hear the distant thunder of the approaching
cavalcade of blood lust. I see the darkening sky that heralds evil's
implacable approach. I hear the growing din of Amalek's raging, hate-filled
scream for more rivers of Jewish blood. Unlike some, I do not expect
Moshiach to suddenly appear and rescue us. It didn't happen that way all the
other times and I don't see that this time is any different. We still
haven't done our part! Until we understand and learn the lesson there is no
reason for things to change. The Land of Israel is the key. Hashem commanded
us to settle the land. Hashem commanded us to cleanse the land.

We should mind that the first man to fall under a Maccabe sword was not a
Greek usurper but a Jew who ran to do the Greek bidding. Maccabe arrows did
not distinguish between Greek oppressor and the assimilators who did their
bidding. They struck them all down equally. Gush Katif was allowed to
happened because holy people do not yet understand what is before us. Holy
people are still standing with hands clasped waiting for Moshiach to rescue
us when Hashem has put the outcome in our hands.

Hashem did not say, "Sit on your hands in the land and wait until Moshiach
comes to do your job for you". Hashem said, "drive out all the inhabitants
of the land from before you, destroy all their temples, destroy their molten
idols, and demolish their high places". Hashem said, "clear out the Land and
settle in it". Hashem said, "You shall utterly destroy them; neither shall
you make a covenant with them, nor be gracious to them". Hashem said, "You
shall demolish their altars and smash their monuments, and cut down their
asherim trees, and burn their graven images with fire". Hashem said, "You do
this!" He did not say, "Wait for Moshiach to come and do it".

The Torah commands us to take up the sword and remove all goyim from the
land of Israel. The Torah commands us to take up the sword and remove all
idol worshippers and things of idol worship from the Land of Israel. The
Torah commands us to clear and settle all of the Land of Israel. These
commands are just as fully our Torah obligations as any of the other
obligations we take upon ourselves. In my mind we are no more free to ignore
or refrain from them than we are free to ignore or refrain from any other
mitzvot. That they seem impossible is no excuse. That "the world" will
disapprove or hate us is no excuse. Hashem commanded. Who dares say, "We
should ot obey?"

Would we eat a pig because the world would hate us if we don't? Would we
sacrifice a pig on a pagan altar because the world would attack us if we do
not? No! There is therefore no excuse. If we claim to be Torah observant
Jews we must observe all of the mitzvot. We must cleanse the Land or Hashem
will kick us off the land AGAIN.

The root of all the trouble we have in the world from the day we crossed
Jordan until today is our refusal in every generation to do with the Land as
we have been commanded. I submit that Moshiach will not come and perform
this obligation for us. We are given this duty to perform ourselves. If we
want miracles, if we want Hashem in our midst, if we want Moshiach we cannot
sit on our hands and ignore our obligations for another generation. We must
all go home to settle all of our Heritage, fully cleanse our Land and raise
up the Beit HaMikdash as Hashem commanded us. Am I the only one who sees
this?


(Former US Army special ops commando Bob Blue is a specialist in
hand-to-hand warfare and coach of the Nevada
<http://www.combat-sport.com/maccabe/>team)
Maccabee Strength and Power Sports <http://www.combat-sport.com/maccabe/>
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From stephen at 777jesusislord.com  Tue Dec  9 08:02:30 2008
From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:02:30 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
References: <493DEBD7.E0DEF.234D@pop.directnic.com>
Message-ID: <E0AEA6842A2A490F8531FD9BE262AA75@SEWVAC011>

I had a Christian minister write me, who believes in Jesus as  
 Messiah and Savior, and he is ordering 60 copies to pass out to  
 everyone he knows

I was rather blown away that this would be my largest "outside"  
order of the book to date.

People are hungry for truth.  Anyone who honestly searches 
scripture, who is a gentile, as I am, will come to the conclusion
that the ROOT of Hashem's relation to the gentiles, is predicated
on the L-rd's relation to Israel, and to the *children* so dearly dearly
loved that are called to Hashem.

And while there are still "christians" who kill and hate Jews....
they are not of my blood.  

Genesis 12:3 specifically tells me to Bless those children who
come from the loins of Abraham.  And I had a friend who taught
me to be practical with it.  While I am "poor" -- I send a widow's
mite to the head of a family in Jerusalem, amazing what you can
do online.... By blessing a single family, I know, while my mite
is small, it will help a family more than it would some big organization.
If everyone would pick out a family to give to, and bypass the
organizations.. give to real people.....

I listened to one of the teachings --- just a blessing to listen to
them.  Obviously, the Oracles of G-d have been committed to
the Jews, and a gentile such as myself, can learn a lot, if he
but open his ears.

I've probably said too much, but I prefer to feel welcome and 
and at peace unless I am told not to be.

Stephen


Tikkun  Tzedek
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:53 PM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21


> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
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> 
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> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Restoring Abrahamic Faith Update (James Tabor)
>   2. Re: Down With Hanukah (Pat Robbins)
>   3. Re: Down With Hanukah (Vegemite Rose)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:59:31 -0500
> From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Restoring Abrahamic Faith Update
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Message-ID: <C451E22C-864C-4353-84E8-DAEEED1D22EF at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Thanks Cornie, I am glad to hear you have benefited from it. Here is a  
> little report on RAF that I just wrote up that I will pass on to you  
> and others on the Dialogue list:
> 
> 
>> I am really encouraged this week with the various responses I am  
>> getting to Restoring Abrahamic Faith. I wanted to share with you  
>> all. I think slowly people are reading it and passing on the word,  
>> mouth to mouth, plus others are ordering more copies, having gotten  
>> their first one and read it, to pass on to others.
>>
>> I had a Christian minister write me, who believes in Jesus as  
>> Messiah and Savior, and he is ordering 60 copies to pass out to  
>> everyone he knows. Even though he realizes the book is not  
>> explicitly "Christian," in terms of identifying who the Davidic  
>> messiah might be, he was so taken with the One God message, and the  
>> basic emphasis on recovering Hebraic faith, that Yeshua surely had,  
>> he wants to get this word out. Folks, this is a pastor of a church.  
>> I was rather blown away that this would be my largest "outside"  
>> order of the book to date.
>>
>> In the meantime I heard from Vendyl and Anita Jones who have read  
>> the book, loved it, and have ordered 25 copies. They asked me to  
>> inscribe personally each one, which I am glad to do, and they are  
>> giving them to everyone they know and care about--friends,  
>> relatives, associated.
>>
>> I just got this nice endorsement from Mike Dallen of  
>> rainbowcoveant.org, a Web site I mention in the book and highly  
>> recommend: -- Restoring Abrahamic Faith, by James D. Tabor; revised  
>> 3rd edition, 2008 (Genesis 2000, Charlotte, North Carolina).  
>> Softcover, 171 pages. We have a long friendly relationship with Dr.  
>> Tabor, and he speaks very positively of TRC here, but we would still  
>> be calling this terrific little book a "must read" even if we hated  
>> him (God forbid). We love this book because it takes the Bible  
>> completely seriously, explores it fearlessly, following the text  
>> itself, and other sources, and explains things - including, e.g.,  
>> the nature and early history of Christianity, but also many aspects  
>> of the Torah Tradition itself - directly, simply, and (best of all)  
>> honestly. This is an open-hearted, large-souled book, very American,  
>> in its way, which convincingly explains why the whole human race  
>> needs to re-think the Bible and restore the ancient faith of Abraham.
>>
>> Another woman in TX ordered 24 copies just last week to give to  
>> friends and family.
>>
>> Just today our own Jeanne Rees wrote me that she would like order 12  
>> copies to give away. Jeanne is such an amazing person in that she  
>> has probably spread more copies around of this book over the years  
>> than anyone I can think of. Her income is limited but she wants to  
>> pass these around to friends and associates.
>>
>> I continue to hear from others, inside our circles and outside. Dear  
>> Amy Suoz wrote me the most wonderfully encouraging note this week,  
>> telling me she had finished the book, was amazingly moved, and  
>> planned to order more as well. Many others have written similar  
>> things.
>>
>> In terms of costs we have tried to make the book as reasonable as  
>> possible. $15 is a fair price for a book of this quality and size,  
>> and we have not gotten even half our initial printing costs back  
>> yet, though I have no doubt we will in time. Once we break even any  
>> profits will just go into printing more copies, so things will  
>> continually multiply.
>>
>> We can offer multiple copies at reduced prices and if you are  
>> interested see: http://genesis2000.org/order-information/
>>
>> Take care and best to all,
>>
>> James
>>
> On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:53 PM, Cornie Reimer wrote:
> 
>> Amen!!!  I would be interested to listen in and learn.
>>
>>  Say James I am just about done reading your book "RESTORING  
>> ABRAHAMIC FAITH" I was a bit hesitant to order it. But I am so glad  
>> I did.  That is so good. I respected your views before already. But  
>> it seems to me you  must have done a fair bit of research in your  
>> life, to find the truth. I am not saying that you and I don't have  
>> more to learn. Some time I would like to read more of your books.
>>
>> Shalom
>>
>> Cornie
>>
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:03:54 -0500
> From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <BLU125-DS204497B91E37F7893CB61BAFA0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Of course we feel inclined to keep up our prayers for Jamie, Cornie!  It's so great to hear how he is progressing.  Thank you for this email.  (It also blesses me to hear the good reports of your marriage.)
> 
> Love,
> 
> Pat
> 
> 
> From: Cornie Reimer 
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:35 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
> 
> 
> Shalom Jessica, Pat and anyone interested. Baruch Hashem it is so uplifting to read and learn from people who love truth and righteousness. I fully agree with what you have been sharing. I have read some of Rabbi Meir Kahane's books. They are so good. I sometimes get quite disheartened at myself when I find how much I have missed throughout life. When all along I had been thinking I wanted nothing but the truth, even as a Christian.
> 
> It was only after I finally realized that I could learn far more from Judaism than anywhere else, that I became aware of it to be possible to become an overcomer. It has been so humiliating yet so rewarding, even after years of studying Judaism now, how far I still had come off track from the ways of Hashem. One thing especially being shalom beis, (peace in the home). Yes i have a challenge living together with a Bi-polar strong willed Christian wife, now for over 50 years. And she has all of our 8 children on her side, in the church. But now, finally, only starting the last couple of years, I can see her meant for me, a suitable partner exactly for me. A beautiful gift, just what I needed for a correction of my own soul!!!! Life is pleasant living with her once I learn to be a man, (not with a feminine mentality) Only in Judaism I am finally learning that it is up to a man to give of himself. Yes give, give, give, without expecting to receive. And the situations just turn around like magic. Some times they don't even seem to change. But nevertheless, that is good exercise. It now re-leaves me of so much un-necessary pain of grief and getting offended. Even when I am misunderstood so often. But it makes a world of a difference how a man responds!!!!!! 
> 
> I am studying a book by the title "The Garden of Peace" A marriage guide for men only. It was an interesting observation just recently when I introduced this book to one of my sons. He is married to a nice woman of good character, they have a nice family of 4 children, and a fairly good shalom bais in their home, that is, for a Christian home. But he was curious and wondered if he could learn something from a Jewish perspective. But he did not get through reading it and gave it back to me commenting  even though very carefully, " That book just has too much of The Law in it". A Christian does not need to be under the law, like a Jew, is what he was trying to tell me. It is so sad that Christians don't realize how liberating the way's of Hashem's Laws really are.
> 
> We have Bi-polar among our children too, Jamie, our only grandson who really starts to respect what I believe, is 16, the son of our youngest son Ruben, who is very seriously Bi-polar. Otherwise popular in society. But Jamie already is far more reasonable to deal with when approached in the ways of Hashem than his rigid dad. Jamie has suffered seriously under the tutorship of his dad, to the point of rebelling against the system, seeing Christianity as a very shallow faith to live by. And as a result he just about gave up faith in Hashem. Or even the god of Christianity. But, Baruch Hashem, I had an opportunity to take him to a Chabad house in Winnipeg on Shabat, and we were invited into a Jewish home after that, who were an old acquaintance of mine from the time I used to go to the Synagogue there. A couple of weeks prior to this, I took him to the synagogue on his own request. Jamie is doing fine now, getting out of  the prison of religion. He resides in a Foster home and takes grade 10 in  a Public school. I have told him over and over, don't follow me but rather make your own choice. At one point he actually told me he appreciated it that I was giving him that choice. His foster home is a Christian Pastors home, but not so much a boxed in Mennonitism. The challenges are quite strong in an atmosphere where he has had no prior roots of experience to guide him except the constant reminder of his health issue because of his kidney transplant 3 years ago. He is constantly under medication. And I am so grateful for all of you who have offered prayers for him. Please keep it up if you feel so inclined.
> 
> Shalom
> 
> Cornie
> 
> 
> 
> Vegemite Rose wrote: 
>  Indeed Pat, the Prophets and Writings are Torah driven and if we lived according to the ways of HaShem, what a wonderful world it would be. (even if only within our own utopian community)
>  Neither am I brave and unyielding to sin, but Pat, we are doing our best to live in the ways of HaShem in a world that doesn't care about it's Creator and is rapidly losing it's care for the value of life itself. Our world appears to be on the slippery slope of 'every man/woman/child for themselves'. Praise HaShem for the voice of the Prophets and for the continuance of the straight forward, no holds barred teachings of the martyred Rabbi Meir Kahane, and many others like him.  
>  Praise HaShem for the voice of The Synagogue Without Walls and its ability to reach all the way around our world and assist with the in-gathering of the Whole House Of Israel, and for its ability for us to communicate and lift each other up and spread the teachings of people such as the late Rabbi. 
>  As Joe will attest, I have been saying for a long time, that I believe the Torah to be a straight forward and simple message for how we, the Created, should live with each other and in relation to our Creator. I favour simplicity Pat. I find the more complicated the teachings of Torah become, the less interested I become in it. 
>  Again - praise to HaShem for Rabbi Meir Kahane's straight forward style. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the deeper meanings of Torah and it's greater purpose for the rectification of our world and the universe. However, if we all lived by the simple and pure ways of Torah, then the greater purpose would be accomplished - wouldn't it?
>  I'm glad you appreciate this article Pat - I hope others can also see the truth of it. 
>  Brachot v'Shalom
>  Jessica
> 
>  Pat Robbins wrote: 
>    This will shake you up!!!!  I applaud you, Jessica, for challenging us with Rabbi Meir Kahane's no-holds-barred teaching.  We have been conditioned to live in the gray areas, no longer recognizing the boundaries of black and white, right and wrong.  We have blurred the words of our Prophets until they've become politically correct enough to suit our behavior.  We have defaced the Holy Torah with our better, more "enlightened" and visionary dreams of a utopian society where hugs replace justice, and coldblooded murderers are released to kill again and again.
> 
>    We need to study very carefully all that the Torah, Prophets and Writings teach us, then act accordingly.
> 
>    I am not brave and unyielding to sin like Rabbi Kahane was.  I have comfortably settled into a monochromatic palette of gray...........but I want to change.  I want to follow HaShem at all costs.  I want to be so much better than I am.  Thank you for encouraging us, Jessica, with the teachings of this man who challenges one and all to follow G-d.
> 
>    Pat    
> 
> 
>    From: Vegemite Rose 
>    Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:15 AM
>    To: Roots Of Faith Dialogue List 
>    Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
> 
> 
>    Shalom to All,
>    I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown away by his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be forgotten and may his teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land, the Torah, the Covenant and the Holy People.
>    Blessings from Jessica
> 
>     
> 
> 
>    Down With Hanukah
>    By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l
> 
>    If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members of the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the barricades and join in battle against that most dangerous of all Jewish holidays - Hanukah.
> 
>    It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along with the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that stands for everything that the masses of world Jewry and their leadership has rejected - it is this one. If one would find an event that is truly rooted in everything that Jews of our times and their leaders have rejected and, indeed, attacked - it is this one. If there is any holiday that is more "un-Jewish" in the sense of our modern beliefs and practices - I do not know of it.
> 
>    The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract Christmas; that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our- goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children with eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that the Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so that the beaming parents might think that the Religious School is really successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it really is; the Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me- liberty-or-death and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal saviors who fought so that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to preach their Marx and eat their ham, that the split-level dwellers of suburbia might be allowed to violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom and the Reform and Conservative Temples continue to fight for civil rights for Blacks, Puerto Ricans and Jane Fonda, is not remotely connected with reality.
> 
>    This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. Truly, could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see what Hanukah has become, they might very well begin a second Maccabean revolt. For the life that we Jews lead today was the very cause, the real reason, for the revolt of the Jews "in those days in our times."
> 
>    What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a handful of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And precisely who was the enemy? What were they fighting for and who were they fighting against?
> 
>    For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, yet, the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek policy shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to suppress the Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its bloodiness. It was not mere liberty that led to the Maccabean uprising that we so passionately applaud. What we are really cheering is a brave group of Jews who fought and plunged Judea into a bloodbath for the right to observe the Sabbath, to follow the laws of kashrut, to obey the laws of the Torah. In a world where everything about Hanukah that we commemorate, and teach our children to commemorate, are things we consider to be outmoded, medieval and childish!
> 
>    At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have done what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are not really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not the Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative movements write this daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that which we violate every day of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges as a needless holiday if not a foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven children; poor Mattathias and Judah; poor well meaning chaps all - but hopelessly backward and utterly unnecessary sacrifices.
> 
>    But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at the hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children portray so cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants, was not a Greek. He was a Jew.
> 
>    When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and demand its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom of pagan worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After all, what business was it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And it was this Jew, this apostate, this religious traitor who was struck down by the brave, glorious, courageous, (are these not the words all our Sunday schools use to describe him) Mattathias, as he shouted: "Whoever is for G-d, follow me!"
> 
>    What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry? What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair, the graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, the liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us unto death with the concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded, undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to honor? What kind of nationalism is this for Shimon Peres (he who rejects the 'Galut' and speaks of the proud, free Jew of ancient Judea and Israel)?
> 
>    And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who reacted to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have deplored Jewish violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- Jewish, stand in horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket the Syrian Greeks to death and who rejected quiet diplomacy for the sword, spear and arrow (had there been bombs in those days, who can tell what they might have done?) and "descended to the level of 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical and moral concepts of Judaism.
> 
>    Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is this the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our children? Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in the wilderness to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it represents - the Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?
> 
>    Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of bigotry that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the Judaism of violence that calls for Jewish force and might against the enemy? When shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese food and violate our Sabbaths and reject all the separateness, nationalism and religious maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly represents? Down with Hanukah! It is a regressive holiday that merely symbolizes the Judaism that always was; the Judaism that was handed down to us from Sinai; the Judaism that made our ancestors ready to give their lives for the L-rd; the Judaism that young people instinctively know is true and great and real. Such a Judaism is dangerous for us and our leaders. We must do all in our power to bury it.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    _______________________________________________
> 
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> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:22:56 +1030
> From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Message-ID: <493DEB98.5070800 at y7mail.com>
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From stephen at 777jesusislord.com  Tue Dec  9 09:45:37 2008
From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:45:37 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 22
References: <493E7AAD.CF2BB.5E31@pop.directnic.com>
Message-ID: <CCB2224964C7410D8AEAD19ADA400F10@SEWVAC011>

How do I order copies,  Who do I make a check out to?
Where do I send it?

Stephen


>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. An article I TOTALLY relate to.... (Hanoch Young)
>   2. Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21 (stephen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 05:37:22 -0800
> From: "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Dialogue] An article I TOTALLY relate to....
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Message-ID:
> <855590370812090537v43fbe65aj8faea53ab8688bab at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>    Home 
> <http://www.breslev.co.il/default.aspx?language=english>Society<http://www.breslev.co.il/categories/society.aspx?category=29&pageid=1&language=english>Jewish
> World<http://www.breslev.co.il/categories/society/jewish_world.aspx?category=39&pageid=1&language=english>Will
> Moshiach Do My Job?     [image: Will Moshiach Do My Job?]
> By: Bob 
> Blue<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=bob+blue&type=1&fullType=authors&language=English>
>  [image: Email This Article]  [image: Print version]
>
> I am concerned about Jews in America. They just will not listen.  When I
> tell people what is coming the "wise ones" just smile tolerantly behind
> their hand at my utter foolishness and go on about the business of seeing 
> to
> their comfort and their wealth. Israel thought the Prophet a foolish 
> person
> too, if I recall. Until they awoke one morning to the blood-thirsty horde 
> of
> looters and rapists outside the walls. A few months later they were 
> cooking
> and eating their own children.
> The signs are there for anyone willing to see. When the pretext of 9-11 
> came
> along and gave us "Homeland Security" and the "Patriot Act" I saw the end 
> of
> the road where that will lead. I understood that "muslim extremists" would
> not be the final victims of these evil laws. I understood that rights, 
> once
> usurped by government, are forever lost. I understood that, just as in 
> Nazi
> Germany, the suspension of judicial oversight over powers of arrest,
> detention and seizure will be expanded beyond the stated pretext for their
> creation to eventually be used for any purpose the government deems
> expedient. I understood that from that day forward a defacto police state,
> just like in Nazi Germany, already exists in Amerika, regardless of 
> whether
> the government chooses to openly so conduct itself at this time.
>
> I predicted the collapse of the housing and financial markets eight years
> before the ostriches saw it coming. I looked at the signs and I saw it
> coming. I perceived and understood the fraudulent way the Amerikan
> government dupes the public, propping up the appearance of a healthy 
> economy
> by manipulating the reporting of selected "indicators". I saw and 
> understood
> how a fantasy perception of "economic growth" is generated and continually
> perpetuated by the fraud of allowing ever more extensive and
> uncollateralized credit use by individuals, business and government. I
> understood the unsustainability and the unavoidable collapse of a system
> that allows everyone to perpetually spend more than they take in. I saw 
> and
> understood the implication of allowing mega-business to move their
> operations "off-shore" so that ever more currency is siphoned off from
> circulation in the American economy. I saw and understood the implication 
> of
> the government printing wads more money than it takes in, just as in Nazi
> Germany, to pay for programs it can't afford like the occupation and
> subjugation of foreign lands and to dole out billions that it does not 
> have
> for "economic stimulus". I understood and I saw the inevitability of the
> "crisis".
>
> In America the ignorant and unperceptive say, "Prices have risen too 
> high".
> The government encourages that false perception to divert public eyes from
> the truth. The truth is that the government is ravenously stealing from 
> the
> people by just printing up and spending whatever money it wants without
> regard to its income. The simple economic truth is that prices have not
> "gone up" but rather "money has gone down". The truth is that the 
> government
> is selling out the people by prostituting itself to serve mega-business
> contrary to the interests of the people.
>
> When this huge fraud inevitably collapses there will be hordes of angry,
> suffering, hungry people looking for someone to blame, looking for someone
> to punish. It is absolutely certain that those in government are not going
> to take the blame for this. Someone, however, will take the blame and pay
> the price and history tells us who that someone will be. If the Jews of
> Amerika have not learned anything from the Germany of the Holocaust, I 
> have.
> Jews are always the scapegoat.
>
>
>
> *Photo, above - Jews being paraded and ridiculed through German streets,
> 1938. Could the same thing happen in America?*
>
> The more things change, the more they remain the same. The Jews of Germany
> had the same sure warnings as ancient Israel had. They chose 
> self-deception,
> "That can't happen here", and did not flee. Hashem permitted them the fate
> they chose. The Jews of Germany ignored the unpleasant fact of Amalek's
> return and went to their doom.
>
> Amalek is back and this time it is the ostrich Jews of Amerika who have
> their heads stuck in the sand. Amalek will not stay his hand from evil
> because we wish it so. All the same signs are there for the Jews of 
> Amerika
> that were there for the Jews of Germany. Like the Jews of Germany, the 
> Jews
> of Amerika refuse to see. Once again the dark spirit of Amalek is
> marshalling the evil might of a world with no love for Jews for one more
> onslaught in evil's perpetual resolve to eradicate the Jews.
>
> Like the Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika have clogged their ears
> against the din of the approaching hell-storm. Like the Jews of Germany, 
> the
> Jews of Amerika deceive themselves with the same wishful thought, "Things
> are different now. This is America. We are safe. That could never happen
> here." Like the Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika are wrong. Like the
> Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika will suffer destruction in an
> implacable wave of unbearable agony and torment, G-d forbid.
>
> This is the fate of the Jews of Amerika as things stand, though it need 
> not
> be so. We know that teshuva and tefilla can reverse the evil decree. Our
> history is replete with proof that we can turn from sin to Hashem and 
> Torah
> and Hashem will rescue us from evil decrees. Even without teshuva it is
> possible for us to stand invincible before our enemies. As Rav Shalom 
> Arush
> points out, "When the Jews worshiped idols but remained united, They went 
> to
> war and won." So, the fate of the Jews of Amerika is not set in stone. 
> There
> is always the possibility that they will open their eyes and do teshuva
> before Hashem. There is always the possibility that they will throw aside
> the petty denominational differences and stand as one.
>
> Still, I would rather not wait around to see. I want out. If I am to 
> suffer
> or be martyred let it be standing on Holy Eretz Israel. If I am to have 
> joy
> and abundance let it be standing on Holy Eretz Israel.
>
> It is not only the Jews of Amerika I lament for. I see the evil gathering
> itself against our Holy Land. I hear the distant thunder of the 
> approaching
> cavalcade of blood lust. I see the darkening sky that heralds evil's
> implacable approach. I hear the growing din of Amalek's raging, 
> hate-filled
> scream for more rivers of Jewish blood. Unlike some, I do not expect
> Moshiach to suddenly appear and rescue us. It didn't happen that way all 
> the
> other times and I don't see that this time is any different. We still
> haven't done our part! Until we understand and learn the lesson there is 
> no
> reason for things to change. The Land of Israel is the key. Hashem 
> commanded
> us to settle the land. Hashem commanded us to cleanse the land.
>
> We should mind that the first man to fall under a Maccabe sword was not a
> Greek usurper but a Jew who ran to do the Greek bidding. Maccabe arrows 
> did
> not distinguish between Greek oppressor and the assimilators who did their
> bidding. They struck them all down equally. Gush Katif was allowed to
> happened because holy people do not yet understand what is before us. Holy
> people are still standing with hands clasped waiting for Moshiach to 
> rescue
> us when Hashem has put the outcome in our hands.
>
> Hashem did not say, "Sit on your hands in the land and wait until Moshiach
> comes to do your job for you". Hashem said, "drive out all the inhabitants
> of the land from before you, destroy all their temples, destroy their 
> molten
> idols, and demolish their high places". Hashem said, "clear out the Land 
> and
> settle in it". Hashem said, "You shall utterly destroy them; neither shall
> you make a covenant with them, nor be gracious to them". Hashem said, "You
> shall demolish their altars and smash their monuments, and cut down their
> asherim trees, and burn their graven images with fire". Hashem said, "You 
> do
> this!" He did not say, "Wait for Moshiach to come and do it".
>
> The Torah commands us to take up the sword and remove all goyim from the
> land of Israel. The Torah commands us to take up the sword and remove all
> idol worshippers and things of idol worship from the Land of Israel. The
> Torah commands us to clear and settle all of the Land of Israel. These
> commands are just as fully our Torah obligations as any of the other
> obligations we take upon ourselves. In my mind we are no more free to 
> ignore
> or refrain from them than we are free to ignore or refrain from any other
> mitzvot. That they seem impossible is no excuse. That "the world" will
> disapprove or hate us is no excuse. Hashem commanded. Who dares say, "We
> should ot obey?"
>
> Would we eat a pig because the world would hate us if we don't? Would we
> sacrifice a pig on a pagan altar because the world would attack us if we 
> do
> not? No! There is therefore no excuse. If we claim to be Torah observant
> Jews we must observe all of the mitzvot. We must cleanse the Land or 
> Hashem
> will kick us off the land AGAIN.
>
> The root of all the trouble we have in the world from the day we crossed
> Jordan until today is our refusal in every generation to do with the Land 
> as
> we have been commanded. I submit that Moshiach will not come and perform
> this obligation for us. We are given this duty to perform ourselves. If we
> want miracles, if we want Hashem in our midst, if we want Moshiach we 
> cannot
> sit on our hands and ignore our obligations for another generation. We 
> must
> all go home to settle all of our Heritage, fully cleanse our Land and 
> raise
> up the Beit HaMikdash as Hashem commanded us. Am I the only one who sees
> this?
>
>
> (Former US Army special ops commando Bob Blue is a specialist in
> hand-to-hand warfare and coach of the Nevada
> <http://www.combat-sport.com/maccabe/>team)
> Maccabee Strength and Power Sports <http://www.combat-sport.com/maccabe/>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:02:30 -0600
> From: "stephen" <stephen at 777jesusislord.com>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <E0AEA6842A2A490F8531FD9BE262AA75 at SEWVAC011>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I had a Christian minister write me, who believes in Jesus as
> Messiah and Savior, and he is ordering 60 copies to pass out to
> everyone he knows
>
> I was rather blown away that this would be my largest "outside"
> order of the book to date.
>
> People are hungry for truth.  Anyone who honestly searches
> scripture, who is a gentile, as I am, will come to the conclusion
> that the ROOT of Hashem's relation to the gentiles, is predicated
> on the L-rd's relation to Israel, and to the *children* so dearly dearly
> loved that are called to Hashem.
>
> And while there are still "christians" who kill and hate Jews....
> they are not of my blood.
>
> Genesis 12:3 specifically tells me to Bless those children who
> come from the loins of Abraham.  And I had a friend who taught
> me to be practical with it.  While I am "poor" -- I send a widow's
> mite to the head of a family in Jerusalem, amazing what you can
> do online.... By blessing a single family, I know, while my mite
> is small, it will help a family more than it would some big organization.
> If everyone would pick out a family to give to, and bypass the
> organizations.. give to real people.....
>
> I listened to one of the teachings --- just a blessing to listen to
> them.  Obviously, the Oracles of G-d have been committed to
> the Jews, and a gentile such as myself, can learn a lot, if he
> but open his ears.
>
> I've probably said too much, but I prefer to feel welcome and
> and at peace unless I am told not to be.
>
> Stephen
>
>
> Tikkun  Tzedek
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:53 PM
> Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
>
>
>> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
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>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
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>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Restoring Abrahamic Faith Update (James Tabor)
>>   2. Re: Down With Hanukah (Pat Robbins)
>>   3. Re: Down With Hanukah (Vegemite Rose)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:59:31 -0500
>> From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: [Dialogue] Restoring Abrahamic Faith Update
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Message-ID: <C451E22C-864C-4353-84E8-DAEEED1D22EF at earthlink.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Thanks Cornie, I am glad to hear you have benefited from it. Here is a
>> little report on RAF that I just wrote up that I will pass on to you
>> and others on the Dialogue list:
>>
>>
>>> I am really encouraged this week with the various responses I am
>>> getting to Restoring Abrahamic Faith. I wanted to share with you
>>> all. I think slowly people are reading it and passing on the word,
>>> mouth to mouth, plus others are ordering more copies, having gotten
>>> their first one and read it, to pass on to others.
>>>
>>> I had a Christian minister write me, who believes in Jesus as
>>> Messiah and Savior, and he is ordering 60 copies to pass out to
>>> everyone he knows. Even though he realizes the book is not
>>> explicitly "Christian," in terms of identifying who the Davidic
>>> messiah might be, he was so taken with the One God message, and the
>>> basic emphasis on recovering Hebraic faith, that Yeshua surely had,
>>> he wants to get this word out. Folks, this is a pastor of a church.
>>> I was rather blown away that this would be my largest "outside"
>>> order of the book to date.
>>>
>>> In the meantime I heard from Vendyl and Anita Jones who have read
>>> the book, loved it, and have ordered 25 copies. They asked me to
>>> inscribe personally each one, which I am glad to do, and they are
>>> giving them to everyone they know and care about--friends,
>>> relatives, associated.
>>>
>>> I just got this nice endorsement from Mike Dallen of
>>> rainbowcoveant.org, a Web site I mention in the book and highly
>>> recommend: -- Restoring Abrahamic Faith, by James D. Tabor; revised
>>> 3rd edition, 2008 (Genesis 2000, Charlotte, North Carolina).
>>> Softcover, 171 pages. We have a long friendly relationship with Dr.
>>> Tabor, and he speaks very positively of TRC here, but we would still
>>> be calling this terrific little book a "must read" even if we hated
>>> him (God forbid). We love this book because it takes the Bible
>>> completely seriously, explores it fearlessly, following the text
>>> itself, and other sources, and explains things - including, e.g.,
>>> the nature and early history of Christianity, but also many aspects
>>> of the Torah Tradition itself - directly, simply, and (best of all)
>>> honestly. This is an open-hearted, large-souled book, very American,
>>> in its way, which convincingly explains why the whole human race
>>> needs to re-think the Bible and restore the ancient faith of Abraham.
>>>
>>> Another woman in TX ordered 24 copies just last week to give to
>>> friends and family.
>>>
>>> Just today our own Jeanne Rees wrote me that she would like order 12
>>> copies to give away. Jeanne is such an amazing person in that she
>>> has probably spread more copies around of this book over the years
>>> than anyone I can think of. Her income is limited but she wants to
>>> pass these around to friends and associates.
>>>
>>> I continue to hear from others, inside our circles and outside. Dear
>>> Amy Suoz wrote me the most wonderfully encouraging note this week,
>>> telling me she had finished the book, was amazingly moved, and
>>> planned to order more as well. Many others have written similar
>>> things.
>>>
>>> In terms of costs we have tried to make the book as reasonable as
>>> possible. $15 is a fair price for a book of this quality and size,
>>> and we have not gotten even half our initial printing costs back
>>> yet, though I have no doubt we will in time. Once we break even any
>>> profits will just go into printing more copies, so things will
>>> continually multiply.
>>>
>>> We can offer multiple copies at reduced prices and if you are
>>> interested see: http://genesis2000.org/order-information/
>>>
>>> Take care and best to all,
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>> On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:53 PM, Cornie Reimer wrote:
>>
>>> Amen!!!  I would be interested to listen in and learn.
>>>
>>>  Say James I am just about done reading your book "RESTORING
>>> ABRAHAMIC FAITH" I was a bit hesitant to order it. But I am so glad
>>> I did.  That is so good. I respected your views before already. But
>>> it seems to me you  must have done a fair bit of research in your
>>> life, to find the truth. I am not saying that you and I don't have
>>> more to learn. Some time I would like to read more of your books.
>>>
>>> Shalom
>>>
>>> Cornie
>>>
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:03:54 -0500
>> From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>> Message-ID: <BLU125-DS204497B91E37F7893CB61BAFA0 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Of course we feel inclined to keep up our prayers for Jamie, Cornie! 
>> It's so great to hear how he is progressing.  Thank you for this email. 
>> (It also blesses me to hear the good reports of your marriage.)
>>
>> Love,
>>
>> Pat
>>
>>
>> From: Cornie Reimer
>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:35 PM
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>
>>
>> Shalom Jessica, Pat and anyone interested. Baruch Hashem it is so 
>> uplifting to read and learn from people who love truth and righteousness. 
>> I fully agree with what you have been sharing. I have read some of Rabbi 
>> Meir Kahane's books. They are so good. I sometimes get quite disheartened 
>> at myself when I find how much I have missed throughout life. When all 
>> along I had been thinking I wanted nothing but the truth, even as a 
>> Christian.
>>
>> It was only after I finally realized that I could learn far more from 
>> Judaism than anywhere else, that I became aware of it to be possible to 
>> become an overcomer. It has been so humiliating yet so rewarding, even 
>> after years of studying Judaism now, how far I still had come off track 
>> from the ways of Hashem. One thing especially being shalom beis, (peace 
>> in the home). Yes i have a challenge living together with a Bi-polar 
>> strong willed Christian wife, now for over 50 years. And she has all of 
>> our 8 children on her side, in the church. But now, finally, only 
>> starting the last couple of years, I can see her meant for me, a suitable 
>> partner exactly for me. A beautiful gift, just what I needed for a 
>> correction of my own soul!!!! Life is pleasant living with her once I 
>> learn to be a man, (not with a feminine mentality) Only in Judaism I am 
>> finally learning that it is up to a man to give of himself. Yes give, 
>> give, give, without expecting to receive. And the situations just turn 
>> around like magic. Some times they don't even seem to change. But 
>> nevertheless, that is good exercise. It now re-leaves me of so much 
>> un-necessary pain of grief and getting offended. Even when I am 
>> misunderstood so often. But it makes a world of a difference how a man 
>> responds!!!!!!
>>
>> I am studying a book by the title "The Garden of Peace" A marriage guide 
>> for men only. It was an interesting observation just recently when I 
>> introduced this book to one of my sons. He is married to a nice woman of 
>> good character, they have a nice family of 4 children, and a fairly good 
>> shalom bais in their home, that is, for a Christian home. But he was 
>> curious and wondered if he could learn something from a Jewish 
>> perspective. But he did not get through reading it and gave it back to me 
>> commenting  even though very carefully, " That book just has too much of 
>> The Law in it". A Christian does not need to be under the law, like a 
>> Jew, is what he was trying to tell me. It is so sad that Christians don't 
>> realize how liberating the way's of Hashem's Laws really are.
>>
>> We have Bi-polar among our children too, Jamie, our only grandson who 
>> really starts to respect what I believe, is 16, the son of our youngest 
>> son Ruben, who is very seriously Bi-polar. Otherwise popular in society. 
>> But Jamie already is far more reasonable to deal with when approached in 
>> the ways of Hashem than his rigid dad. Jamie has suffered seriously under 
>> the tutorship of his dad, to the point of rebelling against the system, 
>> seeing Christianity as a very shallow faith to live by. And as a result 
>> he just about gave up faith in Hashem. Or even the god of Christianity. 
>> But, Baruch Hashem, I had an opportunity to take him to a Chabad house in 
>> Winnipeg on Shabat, and we were invited into a Jewish home after that, 
>> who were an old acquaintance of mine from the time I used to go to the 
>> Synagogue there. A couple of weeks prior to this, I took him to the 
>> synagogue on his own request. Jamie is doing fine now, getting out of 
>> the prison of religion. He resides in a Foster home and takes grade 10 in 
>> a Public school. I have told him over and over, don't follow me but 
>> rather make your own choice. At one point he actually told me he 
>> appreciated it that I was giving him that choice. His foster home is a 
>> Christian Pastors home, but not so much a boxed in Mennonitism. The 
>> challenges are quite strong in an atmosphere where he has had no prior 
>> roots of experience to guide him except the constant reminder of his 
>> health issue because of his kidney transplant 3 years ago. He is 
>> constantly under medication. And I am so grateful for all of you who have 
>> offered prayers for him. Please keep it up if you feel so inclined.
>>
>> Shalom
>>
>> Cornie
>>
>>
>>
>> Vegemite Rose wrote:
>>  Indeed Pat, the Prophets and Writings are Torah driven and if we lived 
>> according to the ways of HaShem, what a wonderful world it would be. 
>> (even if only within our own utopian community)
>>  Neither am I brave and unyielding to sin, but Pat, we are doing our best 
>> to live in the ways of HaShem in a world that doesn't care about it's 
>> Creator and is rapidly losing it's care for the value of life itself. Our 
>> world appears to be on the slippery slope of 'every man/woman/child for 
>> themselves'. Praise HaShem for the voice of the Prophets and for the 
>> continuance of the straight forward, no holds barred teachings of the 
>> martyred Rabbi Meir Kahane, and many others like him.
>>  Praise HaShem for the voice of The Synagogue Without Walls and its 
>> ability to reach all the way around our world and assist with the 
>> in-gathering of the Whole House Of Israel, and for its ability for us to 
>> communicate and lift each other up and spread the teachings of people 
>> such as the late Rabbi.
>>  As Joe will attest, I have been saying for a long time, that I believe 
>> the Torah to be a straight forward and simple message for how we, the 
>> Created, should live with each other and in relation to our Creator. I 
>> favour simplicity Pat. I find the more complicated the teachings of Torah 
>> become, the less interested I become in it.
>>  Again - praise to HaShem for Rabbi Meir Kahane's straight forward style. 
>> That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the deeper meanings of Torah 
>> and it's greater purpose for the rectification of our world and the 
>> universe. However, if we all lived by the simple and pure ways of Torah, 
>> then the greater purpose would be accomplished - wouldn't it?
>>  I'm glad you appreciate this article Pat - I hope others can also see 
>> the truth of it.
>>  Brachot v'Shalom
>>  Jessica
>>
>>  Pat Robbins wrote:
>>    This will shake you up!!!!  I applaud you, Jessica, for challenging us 
>> with Rabbi Meir Kahane's no-holds-barred teaching.  We have been 
>> conditioned to live in the gray areas, no longer recognizing the 
>> boundaries of black and white, right and wrong.  We have blurred the 
>> words of our Prophets until they've become politically correct enough to 
>> suit our behavior.  We have defaced the Holy Torah with our better, more 
>> "enlightened" and visionary dreams of a utopian society where hugs 
>> replace justice, and coldblooded murderers are released to kill again and 
>> again.
>>
>>    We need to study very carefully all that the Torah, Prophets and 
>> Writings teach us, then act accordingly.
>>
>>    I am not brave and unyielding to sin like Rabbi Kahane was.  I have 
>> comfortably settled into a monochromatic palette of gray...........but I 
>> want to change.  I want to follow HaShem at all costs.  I want to be so 
>> much better than I am.  Thank you for encouraging us, Jessica, with the 
>> teachings of this man who challenges one and all to follow G-d.
>>
>>    Pat
>>
>>
>>    From: Vegemite Rose
>>    Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:15 AM
>>    To: Roots Of Faith Dialogue List
>>    Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>
>>
>>    Shalom to All,
>>    I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown away 
>> by his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be forgotten and may 
>> his teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land, the Torah, the Covenant 
>> and the Holy People.
>>    Blessings from Jessica
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    Down With Hanukah
>>    By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l
>>
>>    If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment 
>> whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the 
>> leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members of 
>> the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened 
>> sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the barricades 
>> and join in battle against that most dangerous of all Jewish holidays - 
>> Hanukah.
>>
>>    It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community 
>> that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the 
>> "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual 
>> dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along with 
>> the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that stands for everything that 
>> the masses of world Jewry and their leadership has rejected - it is this 
>> one. If one would find an event that is truly rooted in everything that 
>> Jews of our times and their leaders have rejected and, indeed, attacked - 
>> it is this one. If there is any holiday that is more "un-Jewish" in the 
>> sense of our modern beliefs and practices - I do not know of it.
>>
>>    The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its 
>> childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the 
>> Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish 
>> parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract Christmas; 
>> that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our- 
>> goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children with 
>> eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that the 
>> Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so that the 
>> beaming parents might think that the Religious School is really 
>> successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it really is; the 
>> Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me- liberty-or-death 
>> and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal saviors who fought so 
>> that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to preach their Marx and eat 
>> their ham, that the split-level dwellers of suburbia might be allowed to 
>> violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom and the Reform and Conservative 
>> Temples continue to fight for civil rights for Blacks, Puerto Ricans and 
>> Jane Fonda, is not remotely connected with reality.
>>
>>    This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews 
>> of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is 
>> surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. Truly, 
>> could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see what Hanukah 
>> has become, they might very well begin a second Maccabean revolt. For the 
>> life that we Jews lead today was the very cause, the real reason, for the 
>> revolt of the Jews "in those days in our times."
>>
>>    What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a handful 
>> of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And precisely who was 
>> the enemy? What were they fighting for and who were they fighting 
>> against?
>>
>>    For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True 
>> independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, yet, 
>> the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek policy 
>> shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to suppress the 
>> Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its bloodiness. It was not 
>> mere liberty that led to the Maccabean uprising that we so passionately 
>> applaud. What we are really cheering is a brave group of Jews who fought 
>> and plunged Judea into a bloodbath for the right to observe the Sabbath, 
>> to follow the laws of kashrut, to obey the laws of the Torah. In a world 
>> where everything about Hanukah that we commemorate, and teach our 
>> children to commemorate, are things we consider to be outmoded, medieval 
>> and childish!
>>
>>    At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and 
>> obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have done 
>> what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are not 
>> really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not the 
>> Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative movements 
>> write this daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that which we 
>> violate every day of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges as a needless 
>> holiday if not a foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven children; poor 
>> Mattathias and Judah; poor well meaning chaps all - but hopelessly 
>> backward and utterly unnecessary sacrifices.
>>
>>    But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and 
>> unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and 
>> illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at the 
>> hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children portray so 
>> cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants, was not a Greek. 
>> He was a Jew.
>>
>>    When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and demand 
>> its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom of pagan 
>> worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After all, what 
>> business was it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And it was this 
>> Jew, this apostate, this religious traitor who was struck down by the 
>> brave, glorious, courageous, (are these not the words all our Sunday 
>> schools use to describe him) Mattathias, as he shouted: "Whoever is for 
>> G-d, follow me!"
>>
>>    What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry? 
>> What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair, the 
>> graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, the 
>> liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us unto 
>> death with the concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded, 
>> undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to honor? 
>> What kind of nationalism is this for Shimon Peres (he who rejects the 
>> 'Galut' and speaks of the proud, free Jew of ancient Judea and Israel)?
>>
>>    And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of 
>> peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who reacted 
>> to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have deplored Jewish 
>> violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- Jewish, stand in 
>> horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket the Syrian Greeks to 
>> death and who rejected quiet diplomacy for the sword, spear and arrow 
>> (had there been bombs in those days, who can tell what they might have 
>> done?) and "descended to the level of 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical 
>> and moral concepts of Judaism.
>>
>>    Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the 
>> kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is this 
>> the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our children? 
>> Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in the wilderness 
>> to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it represents - the 
>> Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?
>>
>>    Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the 
>> Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of bigotry 
>> that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the Judaism of 
>> violence that calls for Jewish force and might against the enemy? When 
>> shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese food and violate our 
>> Sabbaths and reject all the separateness, nationalism and religious 
>> maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly represents? Down with Hanukah! It is a 
>> regressive holiday that merely symbolizes the Judaism that always was; 
>> the Judaism that was handed down to us from Sinai; the Judaism that made 
>> our ancestors ready to give their lives for the L-rd; the Judaism that 
>> young people instinctively know is true and great and real. Such a 
>> Judaism is dangerous for us and our leaders. We must do all in our power 
>> to bury it.
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    _______________________________________________
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
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>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:22:56 +1030
>> From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Message-ID: <493DEB98.5070800 at y7mail.com>
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>>
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>>
>>
>> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
>> ***************************************
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> 


From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  9 10:06:41 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:06:41 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 22
In-Reply-To: <493E7AAD.CF2BB.5E31@pop.directnic.com>
	<CCB2224964C7410D8AEAD19ADA400F10@SEWVAC011>
References: <493E7AAD.CF2BB.5E31@pop.directnic.com>
	<CCB2224964C7410D8AEAD19ADA400F10@SEWVAC011>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS6E78168FD5D42DA2A9362BAFA0@phx.gbl>

Stephen, if you are wanting to order Restoring Abrahamic Faith. single 
copies are $15, but for multiple copies, there is a discount.  The address 
to order from is:  http://genesis2000.org

I think you'll be very glad you read it.

As for the other topic you mentioned re "Will Moshiach Do My Job," I tend to 
agree with the author that things may not be looking too good for Jews in 
the US, or possibly even for those who support Israel.  Hope that's a wrong 
assessment.

Pat





--------------------------------------------------
From: "stephen" <stephen at 777jesusislord.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:45 AM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 22

> How do I order copies,  Who do I make a check out to?
> Where do I send it?
>
> Stephen
>
>
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. An article I TOTALLY relate to.... (Hanoch Young)
>>   2. Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21 (stephen)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 05:37:22 -0800
>> From: "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [Dialogue] An article I TOTALLY relate to....
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Message-ID:
>> <855590370812090537v43fbe65aj8faea53ab8688bab at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>    Home 
>> <http://www.breslev.co.il/default.aspx?language=english>Society<http://www.breslev.co.il/categories/society.aspx?category=29&pageid=1&language=english>Jewish
>> World<http://www.breslev.co.il/categories/society/jewish_world.aspx?category=39&pageid=1&language=english>Will
>> Moshiach Do My Job?     [image: Will Moshiach Do My Job?]
>> By: Bob 
>> Blue<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=bob+blue&type=1&fullType=authors&language=English>
>>  [image: Email This Article]  [image: Print version]
>>
>> I am concerned about Jews in America. They just will not listen.  When I
>> tell people what is coming the "wise ones" just smile tolerantly behind
>> their hand at my utter foolishness and go on about the business of seeing 
>> to
>> their comfort and their wealth. Israel thought the Prophet a foolish 
>> person
>> too, if I recall. Until they awoke one morning to the blood-thirsty horde 
>> of
>> looters and rapists outside the walls. A few months later they were 
>> cooking
>> and eating their own children.
>> The signs are there for anyone willing to see. When the pretext of 9-11 
>> came
>> along and gave us "Homeland Security" and the "Patriot Act" I saw the end 
>> of
>> the road where that will lead. I understood that "muslim extremists" 
>> would
>> not be the final victims of these evil laws. I understood that rights, 
>> once
>> usurped by government, are forever lost. I understood that, just as in 
>> Nazi
>> Germany, the suspension of judicial oversight over powers of arrest,
>> detention and seizure will be expanded beyond the stated pretext for 
>> their
>> creation to eventually be used for any purpose the government deems
>> expedient. I understood that from that day forward a defacto police 
>> state,
>> just like in Nazi Germany, already exists in Amerika, regardless of 
>> whether
>> the government chooses to openly so conduct itself at this time.
>>
>> I predicted the collapse of the housing and financial markets eight years
>> before the ostriches saw it coming. I looked at the signs and I saw it
>> coming. I perceived and understood the fraudulent way the Amerikan
>> government dupes the public, propping up the appearance of a healthy 
>> economy
>> by manipulating the reporting of selected "indicators". I saw and 
>> understood
>> how a fantasy perception of "economic growth" is generated and 
>> continually
>> perpetuated by the fraud of allowing ever more extensive and
>> uncollateralized credit use by individuals, business and government. I
>> understood the unsustainability and the unavoidable collapse of a system
>> that allows everyone to perpetually spend more than they take in. I saw 
>> and
>> understood the implication of allowing mega-business to move their
>> operations "off-shore" so that ever more currency is siphoned off from
>> circulation in the American economy. I saw and understood the implication 
>> of
>> the government printing wads more money than it takes in, just as in Nazi
>> Germany, to pay for programs it can't afford like the occupation and
>> subjugation of foreign lands and to dole out billions that it does not 
>> have
>> for "economic stimulus". I understood and I saw the inevitability of the
>> "crisis".
>>
>> In America the ignorant and unperceptive say, "Prices have risen too 
>> high".
>> The government encourages that false perception to divert public eyes 
>> from
>> the truth. The truth is that the government is ravenously stealing from 
>> the
>> people by just printing up and spending whatever money it wants without
>> regard to its income. The simple economic truth is that prices have not
>> "gone up" but rather "money has gone down". The truth is that the 
>> government
>> is selling out the people by prostituting itself to serve mega-business
>> contrary to the interests of the people.
>>
>> When this huge fraud inevitably collapses there will be hordes of angry,
>> suffering, hungry people looking for someone to blame, looking for 
>> someone
>> to punish. It is absolutely certain that those in government are not 
>> going
>> to take the blame for this. Someone, however, will take the blame and pay
>> the price and history tells us who that someone will be. If the Jews of
>> Amerika have not learned anything from the Germany of the Holocaust, I 
>> have.
>> Jews are always the scapegoat.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Photo, above - Jews being paraded and ridiculed through German streets,
>> 1938. Could the same thing happen in America?*
>>
>> The more things change, the more they remain the same. The Jews of 
>> Germany
>> had the same sure warnings as ancient Israel had. They chose 
>> self-deception,
>> "That can't happen here", and did not flee. Hashem permitted them the 
>> fate
>> they chose. The Jews of Germany ignored the unpleasant fact of Amalek's
>> return and went to their doom.
>>
>> Amalek is back and this time it is the ostrich Jews of Amerika who have
>> their heads stuck in the sand. Amalek will not stay his hand from evil
>> because we wish it so. All the same signs are there for the Jews of 
>> Amerika
>> that were there for the Jews of Germany. Like the Jews of Germany, the 
>> Jews
>> of Amerika refuse to see. Once again the dark spirit of Amalek is
>> marshalling the evil might of a world with no love for Jews for one more
>> onslaught in evil's perpetual resolve to eradicate the Jews.
>>
>> Like the Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika have clogged their ears
>> against the din of the approaching hell-storm. Like the Jews of Germany, 
>> the
>> Jews of Amerika deceive themselves with the same wishful thought, "Things
>> are different now. This is America. We are safe. That could never happen
>> here." Like the Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika are wrong. Like the
>> Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika will suffer destruction in an
>> implacable wave of unbearable agony and torment, G-d forbid.
>>
>> This is the fate of the Jews of Amerika as things stand, though it need 
>> not
>> be so. We know that teshuva and tefilla can reverse the evil decree. Our
>> history is replete with proof that we can turn from sin to Hashem and 
>> Torah
>> and Hashem will rescue us from evil decrees. Even without teshuva it is
>> possible for us to stand invincible before our enemies. As Rav Shalom 
>> Arush
>> points out, "When the Jews worshiped idols but remained united, They went 
>> to
>> war and won." So, the fate of the Jews of Amerika is not set in stone. 
>> There
>> is always the possibility that they will open their eyes and do teshuva
>> before Hashem. There is always the possibility that they will throw aside
>> the petty denominational differences and stand as one.
>>
>> Still, I would rather not wait around to see. I want out. If I am to 
>> suffer
>> or be martyred let it be standing on Holy Eretz Israel. If I am to have 
>> joy
>> and abundance let it be standing on Holy Eretz Israel.
>>
>> It is not only the Jews of Amerika I lament for. I see the evil gathering
>> itself against our Holy Land. I hear the distant thunder of the 
>> approaching
>> cavalcade of blood lust. I see the darkening sky that heralds evil's
>> implacable approach. I hear the growing din of Amalek's raging, 
>> hate-filled
>> scream for more rivers of Jewish blood. Unlike some, I do not expect
>> Moshiach to suddenly appear and rescue us. It didn't happen that way all 
>> the
>> other times and I don't see that this time is any different. We still
>> haven't done our part! Until we understand and learn the lesson there is 
>> no
>> reason for things to change. The Land of Israel is the key. Hashem 
>> commanded
>> us to settle the land. Hashem commanded us to cleanse the land.
>>
>> We should mind that the first man to fall under a Maccabe sword was not a
>> Greek usurper but a Jew who ran to do the Greek bidding. Maccabe arrows 
>> did
>> not distinguish between Greek oppressor and the assimilators who did 
>> their
>> bidding. They struck them all down equally. Gush Katif was allowed to
>> happened because holy people do not yet understand what is before us. 
>> Holy
>> people are still standing with hands clasped waiting for Moshiach to 
>> rescue
>> us when Hashem has put the outcome in our hands.
>>
>> Hashem did not say, "Sit on your hands in the land and wait until 
>> Moshiach
>> comes to do your job for you". Hashem said, "drive out all the 
>> inhabitants
>> of the land from before you, destroy all their temples, destroy their 
>> molten
>> idols, and demolish their high places". Hashem said, "clear out the Land 
>> and
>> settle in it". Hashem said, "You shall utterly destroy them; neither 
>> shall
>> you make a covenant with them, nor be gracious to them". Hashem said, 
>> "You
>> shall demolish their altars and smash their monuments, and cut down their
>> asherim trees, and burn their graven images with fire". Hashem said, "You 
>> do
>> this!" He did not say, "Wait for Moshiach to come and do it".
>>
>> The Torah commands us to take up the sword and remove all goyim from the
>> land of Israel. The Torah commands us to take up the sword and remove all
>> idol worshippers and things of idol worship from the Land of Israel. The
>> Torah commands us to clear and settle all of the Land of Israel. These
>> commands are just as fully our Torah obligations as any of the other
>> obligations we take upon ourselves. In my mind we are no more free to 
>> ignore
>> or refrain from them than we are free to ignore or refrain from any other
>> mitzvot. That they seem impossible is no excuse. That "the world" will
>> disapprove or hate us is no excuse. Hashem commanded. Who dares say, "We
>> should ot obey?"
>>
>> Would we eat a pig because the world would hate us if we don't? Would we
>> sacrifice a pig on a pagan altar because the world would attack us if we 
>> do
>> not? No! There is therefore no excuse. If we claim to be Torah observant
>> Jews we must observe all of the mitzvot. We must cleanse the Land or 
>> Hashem
>> will kick us off the land AGAIN.
>>
>> The root of all the trouble we have in the world from the day we crossed
>> Jordan until today is our refusal in every generation to do with the Land 
>> as
>> we have been commanded. I submit that Moshiach will not come and perform
>> this obligation for us. We are given this duty to perform ourselves. If 
>> we
>> want miracles, if we want Hashem in our midst, if we want Moshiach we 
>> cannot
>> sit on our hands and ignore our obligations for another generation. We 
>> must
>> all go home to settle all of our Heritage, fully cleanse our Land and 
>> raise
>> up the Beit HaMikdash as Hashem commanded us. Am I the only one who sees
>> this?
>>
>>
>> (Former US Army special ops commando Bob Blue is a specialist in
>> hand-to-hand warfare and coach of the Nevada
>> <http://www.combat-sport.com/maccabe/>team)
>> Maccabee Strength and Power Sports <http://www.combat-sport.com/maccabe/>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:02:30 -0600
>> From: "stephen" <stephen at 777jesusislord.com>
>> Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>> Message-ID: <E0AEA6842A2A490F8531FD9BE262AA75 at SEWVAC011>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> I had a Christian minister write me, who believes in Jesus as
>> Messiah and Savior, and he is ordering 60 copies to pass out to
>> everyone he knows
>>
>> I was rather blown away that this would be my largest "outside"
>> order of the book to date.
>>
>> People are hungry for truth.  Anyone who honestly searches
>> scripture, who is a gentile, as I am, will come to the conclusion
>> that the ROOT of Hashem's relation to the gentiles, is predicated
>> on the L-rd's relation to Israel, and to the *children* so dearly dearly
>> loved that are called to Hashem.
>>
>> And while there are still "christians" who kill and hate Jews....
>> they are not of my blood.
>>
>> Genesis 12:3 specifically tells me to Bless those children who
>> come from the loins of Abraham.  And I had a friend who taught
>> me to be practical with it.  While I am "poor" -- I send a widow's
>> mite to the head of a family in Jerusalem, amazing what you can
>> do online.... By blessing a single family, I know, while my mite
>> is small, it will help a family more than it would some big organization.
>> If everyone would pick out a family to give to, and bypass the
>> organizations.. give to real people.....
>>
>> I listened to one of the teachings --- just a blessing to listen to
>> them.  Obviously, the Oracles of G-d have been committed to
>> the Jews, and a gentile such as myself, can learn a lot, if he
>> but open his ears.
>>
>> I've probably said too much, but I prefer to feel welcome and
>> and at peace unless I am told not to be.
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>
>> Tikkun  Tzedek
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:53 PM
>> Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
>>
>>
>>> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
>>> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
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>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>   1. Restoring Abrahamic Faith Update (James Tabor)
>>>   2. Re: Down With Hanukah (Pat Robbins)
>>>   3. Re: Down With Hanukah (Vegemite Rose)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:59:31 -0500
>>> From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
>>> Subject: [Dialogue] Restoring Abrahamic Faith Update
>>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>> Message-ID: <C451E22C-864C-4353-84E8-DAEEED1D22EF at earthlink.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Thanks Cornie, I am glad to hear you have benefited from it. Here is a
>>> little report on RAF that I just wrote up that I will pass on to you
>>> and others on the Dialogue list:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I am really encouraged this week with the various responses I am
>>>> getting to Restoring Abrahamic Faith. I wanted to share with you
>>>> all. I think slowly people are reading it and passing on the word,
>>>> mouth to mouth, plus others are ordering more copies, having gotten
>>>> their first one and read it, to pass on to others.
>>>>
>>>> I had a Christian minister write me, who believes in Jesus as
>>>> Messiah and Savior, and he is ordering 60 copies to pass out to
>>>> everyone he knows. Even though he realizes the book is not
>>>> explicitly "Christian," in terms of identifying who the Davidic
>>>> messiah might be, he was so taken with the One God message, and the
>>>> basic emphasis on recovering Hebraic faith, that Yeshua surely had,
>>>> he wants to get this word out. Folks, this is a pastor of a church.
>>>> I was rather blown away that this would be my largest "outside"
>>>> order of the book to date.
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime I heard from Vendyl and Anita Jones who have read
>>>> the book, loved it, and have ordered 25 copies. They asked me to
>>>> inscribe personally each one, which I am glad to do, and they are
>>>> giving them to everyone they know and care about--friends,
>>>> relatives, associated.
>>>>
>>>> I just got this nice endorsement from Mike Dallen of
>>>> rainbowcoveant.org, a Web site I mention in the book and highly
>>>> recommend: -- Restoring Abrahamic Faith, by James D. Tabor; revised
>>>> 3rd edition, 2008 (Genesis 2000, Charlotte, North Carolina).
>>>> Softcover, 171 pages. We have a long friendly relationship with Dr.
>>>> Tabor, and he speaks very positively of TRC here, but we would still
>>>> be calling this terrific little book a "must read" even if we hated
>>>> him (God forbid). We love this book because it takes the Bible
>>>> completely seriously, explores it fearlessly, following the text
>>>> itself, and other sources, and explains things - including, e.g.,
>>>> the nature and early history of Christianity, but also many aspects
>>>> of the Torah Tradition itself - directly, simply, and (best of all)
>>>> honestly. This is an open-hearted, large-souled book, very American,
>>>> in its way, which convincingly explains why the whole human race
>>>> needs to re-think the Bible and restore the ancient faith of Abraham.
>>>>
>>>> Another woman in TX ordered 24 copies just last week to give to
>>>> friends and family.
>>>>
>>>> Just today our own Jeanne Rees wrote me that she would like order 12
>>>> copies to give away. Jeanne is such an amazing person in that she
>>>> has probably spread more copies around of this book over the years
>>>> than anyone I can think of. Her income is limited but she wants to
>>>> pass these around to friends and associates.
>>>>
>>>> I continue to hear from others, inside our circles and outside. Dear
>>>> Amy Suoz wrote me the most wonderfully encouraging note this week,
>>>> telling me she had finished the book, was amazingly moved, and
>>>> planned to order more as well. Many others have written similar
>>>> things.
>>>>
>>>> In terms of costs we have tried to make the book as reasonable as
>>>> possible. $15 is a fair price for a book of this quality and size,
>>>> and we have not gotten even half our initial printing costs back
>>>> yet, though I have no doubt we will in time. Once we break even any
>>>> profits will just go into printing more copies, so things will
>>>> continually multiply.
>>>>
>>>> We can offer multiple copies at reduced prices and if you are
>>>> interested see: http://genesis2000.org/order-information/
>>>>
>>>> Take care and best to all,
>>>>
>>>> James
>>>>
>>> On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:53 PM, Cornie Reimer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Amen!!!  I would be interested to listen in and learn.
>>>>
>>>>  Say James I am just about done reading your book "RESTORING
>>>> ABRAHAMIC FAITH" I was a bit hesitant to order it. But I am so glad
>>>> I did.  That is so good. I respected your views before already. But
>>>> it seems to me you  must have done a fair bit of research in your
>>>> life, to find the truth. I am not saying that you and I don't have
>>>> more to learn. Some time I would like to read more of your books.
>>>>
>>>> Shalom
>>>>
>>>> Cornie
>>>>
>>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:03:54 -0500
>>> From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>> Message-ID: <BLU125-DS204497B91E37F7893CB61BAFA0 at phx.gbl>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Of course we feel inclined to keep up our prayers for Jamie, Cornie! 
>>> It's so great to hear how he is progressing.  Thank you for this email. 
>>> (It also blesses me to hear the good reports of your marriage.)
>>>
>>> Love,
>>>
>>> Pat
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Cornie Reimer
>>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:35 PM
>>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>>
>>>
>>> Shalom Jessica, Pat and anyone interested. Baruch Hashem it is so 
>>> uplifting to read and learn from people who love truth and 
>>> righteousness. I fully agree with what you have been sharing. I have 
>>> read some of Rabbi Meir Kahane's books. They are so good. I sometimes 
>>> get quite disheartened at myself when I find how much I have missed 
>>> throughout life. When all along I had been thinking I wanted nothing but 
>>> the truth, even as a Christian.
>>>
>>> It was only after I finally realized that I could learn far more from 
>>> Judaism than anywhere else, that I became aware of it to be possible to 
>>> become an overcomer. It has been so humiliating yet so rewarding, even 
>>> after years of studying Judaism now, how far I still had come off track 
>>> from the ways of Hashem. One thing especially being shalom beis, (peace 
>>> in the home). Yes i have a challenge living together with a Bi-polar 
>>> strong willed Christian wife, now for over 50 years. And she has all of 
>>> our 8 children on her side, in the church. But now, finally, only 
>>> starting the last couple of years, I can see her meant for me, a 
>>> suitable partner exactly for me. A beautiful gift, just what I needed 
>>> for a correction of my own soul!!!! Life is pleasant living with her 
>>> once I learn to be a man, (not with a feminine mentality) Only in 
>>> Judaism I am finally learning that it is up to a man to give of himself. 
>>> Yes give, give, give, without expecting to receive. And the situations 
>>> just turn around like magic. Some times they don't even seem to change. 
>>> But nevertheless, that is good exercise. It now re-leaves me of so much 
>>> un-necessary pain of grief and getting offended. Even when I am 
>>> misunderstood so often. But it makes a world of a difference how a man 
>>> responds!!!!!!
>>>
>>> I am studying a book by the title "The Garden of Peace" A marriage guide 
>>> for men only. It was an interesting observation just recently when I 
>>> introduced this book to one of my sons. He is married to a nice woman of 
>>> good character, they have a nice family of 4 children, and a fairly good 
>>> shalom bais in their home, that is, for a Christian home. But he was 
>>> curious and wondered if he could learn something from a Jewish 
>>> perspective. But he did not get through reading it and gave it back to 
>>> me commenting  even though very carefully, " That book just has too much 
>>> of The Law in it". A Christian does not need to be under the law, like a 
>>> Jew, is what he was trying to tell me. It is so sad that Christians 
>>> don't realize how liberating the way's of Hashem's Laws really are.
>>>
>>> We have Bi-polar among our children too, Jamie, our only grandson who 
>>> really starts to respect what I believe, is 16, the son of our youngest 
>>> son Ruben, who is very seriously Bi-polar. Otherwise popular in society. 
>>> But Jamie already is far more reasonable to deal with when approached in 
>>> the ways of Hashem than his rigid dad. Jamie has suffered seriously 
>>> under the tutorship of his dad, to the point of rebelling against the 
>>> system, seeing Christianity as a very shallow faith to live by. And as a 
>>> result he just about gave up faith in Hashem. Or even the god of 
>>> Christianity. But, Baruch Hashem, I had an opportunity to take him to a 
>>> Chabad house in Winnipeg on Shabat, and we were invited into a Jewish 
>>> home after that, who were an old acquaintance of mine from the time I 
>>> used to go to the Synagogue there. A couple of weeks prior to this, I 
>>> took him to the synagogue on his own request. Jamie is doing fine now, 
>>> getting out of the prison of religion. He resides in a Foster home and 
>>> takes grade 10 in a Public school. I have told him over and over, don't 
>>> follow me but rather make your own choice. At one point he actually told 
>>> me he appreciated it that I was giving him that choice. His foster home 
>>> is a Christian Pastors home, but not so much a boxed in Mennonitism. The 
>>> challenges are quite strong in an atmosphere where he has had no prior 
>>> roots of experience to guide him except the constant reminder of his 
>>> health issue because of his kidney transplant 3 years ago. He is 
>>> constantly under medication. And I am so grateful for all of you who 
>>> have offered prayers for him. Please keep it up if you feel so inclined.
>>>
>>> Shalom
>>>
>>> Cornie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vegemite Rose wrote:
>>>  Indeed Pat, the Prophets and Writings are Torah driven and if we lived 
>>> according to the ways of HaShem, what a wonderful world it would be. 
>>> (even if only within our own utopian community)
>>>  Neither am I brave and unyielding to sin, but Pat, we are doing our 
>>> best to live in the ways of HaShem in a world that doesn't care about 
>>> it's Creator and is rapidly losing it's care for the value of life 
>>> itself. Our world appears to be on the slippery slope of 'every 
>>> man/woman/child for themselves'. Praise HaShem for the voice of the 
>>> Prophets and for the continuance of the straight forward, no holds 
>>> barred teachings of the martyred Rabbi Meir Kahane, and many others like 
>>> him.
>>>  Praise HaShem for the voice of The Synagogue Without Walls and its 
>>> ability to reach all the way around our world and assist with the 
>>> in-gathering of the Whole House Of Israel, and for its ability for us to 
>>> communicate and lift each other up and spread the teachings of people 
>>> such as the late Rabbi.
>>>  As Joe will attest, I have been saying for a long time, that I believe 
>>> the Torah to be a straight forward and simple message for how we, the 
>>> Created, should live with each other and in relation to our Creator. I 
>>> favour simplicity Pat. I find the more complicated the teachings of 
>>> Torah become, the less interested I become in it.
>>>  Again - praise to HaShem for Rabbi Meir Kahane's straight forward 
>>> style. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the deeper meanings of 
>>> Torah and it's greater purpose for the rectification of our world and 
>>> the universe. However, if we all lived by the simple and pure ways of 
>>> Torah, then the greater purpose would be accomplished - wouldn't it?
>>>  I'm glad you appreciate this article Pat - I hope others can also see 
>>> the truth of it.
>>>  Brachot v'Shalom
>>>  Jessica
>>>
>>>  Pat Robbins wrote:
>>>    This will shake you up!!!!  I applaud you, Jessica, for challenging 
>>> us with Rabbi Meir Kahane's no-holds-barred teaching.  We have been 
>>> conditioned to live in the gray areas, no longer recognizing the 
>>> boundaries of black and white, right and wrong.  We have blurred the 
>>> words of our Prophets until they've become politically correct enough to 
>>> suit our behavior.  We have defaced the Holy Torah with our better, more 
>>> "enlightened" and visionary dreams of a utopian society where hugs 
>>> replace justice, and coldblooded murderers are released to kill again 
>>> and again.
>>>
>>>    We need to study very carefully all that the Torah, Prophets and 
>>> Writings teach us, then act accordingly.
>>>
>>>    I am not brave and unyielding to sin like Rabbi Kahane was.  I have 
>>> comfortably settled into a monochromatic palette of gray...........but I 
>>> want to change.  I want to follow HaShem at all costs.  I want to be so 
>>> much better than I am.  Thank you for encouraging us, Jessica, with the 
>>> teachings of this man who challenges one and all to follow G-d.
>>>
>>>    Pat
>>>
>>>
>>>    From: Vegemite Rose
>>>    Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:15 AM
>>>    To: Roots Of Faith Dialogue List
>>>    Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>>
>>>
>>>    Shalom to All,
>>>    I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown away 
>>> by his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be forgotten and may 
>>> his teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land, the Torah, the Covenant 
>>> and the Holy People.
>>>    Blessings from Jessica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Down With Hanukah
>>>    By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l
>>>
>>>    If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment 
>>> whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the 
>>> leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members of 
>>> the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened 
>>> sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the barricades 
>>> and join in battle against that most dangerous of all Jewish holidays - 
>>> Hanukah.
>>>
>>>    It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community 
>>> that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the 
>>> "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual 
>>> dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along with 
>>> the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that stands for everything that 
>>> the masses of world Jewry and their leadership has rejected - it is this 
>>> one. If one would find an event that is truly rooted in everything that 
>>> Jews of our times and their leaders have rejected and, indeed, 
>>> attacked - it is this one. If there is any holiday that is more 
>>> "un-Jewish" in the sense of our modern beliefs and practices - I do not 
>>> know of it.
>>>
>>>    The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its 
>>> childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the 
>>> Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish 
>>> parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract Christmas; 
>>> that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our- 
>>> goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children with 
>>> eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that the 
>>> Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so that 
>>> the beaming parents might think that the Religious School is really 
>>> successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it really is; the 
>>> Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me- liberty-or-death 
>>> and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal saviors who fought so 
>>> that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to preach their Marx and 
>>> eat their ham, that the split-level dwellers of suburbia might be 
>>> allowed to violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom and the Reform and 
>>> Conservative Temples continue to fight for civil rights for Blacks, 
>>> Puerto Ricans and Jane Fonda, is not remotely connected with reality.
>>>
>>>    This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews 
>>> of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is 
>>> surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. Truly, 
>>> could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see what Hanukah 
>>> has become, they might very well begin a second Maccabean revolt. For 
>>> the life that we Jews lead today was the very cause, the real reason, 
>>> for the revolt of the Jews "in those days in our times."
>>>
>>>    What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a 
>>> handful of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And precisely 
>>> who was the enemy? What were they fighting for and who were they 
>>> fighting against?
>>>
>>>    For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True 
>>> independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, yet, 
>>> the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek policy 
>>> shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to suppress 
>>> the Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its bloodiness. It 
>>> was not mere liberty that led to the Maccabean uprising that we so 
>>> passionately applaud. What we are really cheering is a brave group of 
>>> Jews who fought and plunged Judea into a bloodbath for the right to 
>>> observe the Sabbath, to follow the laws of kashrut, to obey the laws of 
>>> the Torah. In a world where everything about Hanukah that we 
>>> commemorate, and teach our children to commemorate, are things we 
>>> consider to be outmoded, medieval and childish!
>>>
>>>    At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and 
>>> obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have 
>>> done what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are 
>>> not really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not the 
>>> Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative movements 
>>> write this daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that which we 
>>> violate every day of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges as a 
>>> needless holiday if not a foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven 
>>> children; poor Mattathias and Judah; poor well meaning chaps all - but 
>>> hopelessly backward and utterly unnecessary sacrifices.
>>>
>>>    But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and 
>>> unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and 
>>> illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at the 
>>> hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children portray so 
>>> cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants, was not a Greek. 
>>> He was a Jew.
>>>
>>>    When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and 
>>> demand its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom of 
>>> pagan worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After all, 
>>> what business was it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And it was 
>>> this Jew, this apostate, this religious traitor who was struck down by 
>>> the brave, glorious, courageous, (are these not the words all our Sunday 
>>> schools use to describe him) Mattathias, as he shouted: "Whoever is for 
>>> G-d, follow me!"
>>>
>>>    What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry? 
>>> What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair, 
>>> the graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, the 
>>> liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us unto 
>>> death with the concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded, 
>>> undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to honor? 
>>> What kind of nationalism is this for Shimon Peres (he who rejects the 
>>> 'Galut' and speaks of the proud, free Jew of ancient Judea and Israel)?
>>>
>>>    And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of 
>>> peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who reacted 
>>> to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have deplored Jewish 
>>> violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- Jewish, stand in 
>>> horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket the Syrian Greeks 
>>> to death and who rejected quiet diplomacy for the sword, spear and arrow 
>>> (had there been bombs in those days, who can tell what they might have 
>>> done?) and "descended to the level of 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical 
>>> and moral concepts of Judaism.
>>>
>>>    Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the 
>>> kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is this 
>>> the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our children? 
>>> Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in the wilderness 
>>> to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it represents - the 
>>> Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?
>>>
>>>    Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the 
>>> Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of bigotry 
>>> that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the Judaism of 
>>> violence that calls for Jewish force and might against the enemy? When 
>>> shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese food and violate 
>>> our Sabbaths and reject all the separateness, nationalism and religious 
>>> maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly represents? Down with Hanukah! It is 
>>> a regressive holiday that merely symbolizes the Judaism that always was; 
>>> the Judaism that was handed down to us from Sinai; the Judaism that made 
>>> our ancestors ready to give their lives for the L-rd; the Judaism that 
>>> young people instinctively know is true and great and real. Such a 
>>> Judaism is dangerous for us and our leaders. We must do all in our power 
>>> to bury it.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:22:56 +1030
>>> From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>> Message-ID: <493DEB98.5070800 at y7mail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
>>> ***************************************
>>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 22
>> ***************************************
>>
> _______________________________________________
> 


From stephen at 777jesusislord.com  Tue Dec  9 10:41:00 2008
From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:41:00 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] read it better
References: <493E979A.21F81.27AA@iris2.directnic.com>
Message-ID: <C28797CCE2754DF08CEA230EAE9715CA@SEWVAC011>

For people like me who fail to read the first time
through :)

http://genesis2000.org/order-information/

The link above does work, just ordered 4 books
and look forward to giving them away!

Shalom
Stephen


Tikkun  Tzedek
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:06 AM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 23


> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 22 (stephen)
>   2. Re: Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 22 (Pat Robbins)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:45:37 -0600
> From: "stephen" <stephen at 777jesusislord.com>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 22
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <CCB2224964C7410D8AEAD19ADA400F10 at SEWVAC011>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> How do I order copies,  Who do I make a check out to?
> Where do I send it?
>
> Stephen
>
>
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. An article I TOTALLY relate to.... (Hanoch Young)
>>   2. Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21 (stephen)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 05:37:22 -0800
>> From: "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [Dialogue] An article I TOTALLY relate to....
>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Message-ID:
>> <855590370812090537v43fbe65aj8faea53ab8688bab at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>    Home
>> <http://www.breslev.co.il/default.aspx?language=english>Society<http://www.breslev.co.il/categories/society.aspx?category=29&pageid=1&language=english>Jewish
>> World<http://www.breslev.co.il/categories/society/jewish_world.aspx?category=39&pageid=1&language=english>Will
>> Moshiach Do My Job?     [image: Will Moshiach Do My Job?]
>> By: Bob
>> Blue<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=bob+blue&type=1&fullType=authors&language=English>
>>  [image: Email This Article]  [image: Print version]
>>
>> I am concerned about Jews in America. They just will not listen.  When I
>> tell people what is coming the "wise ones" just smile tolerantly behind
>> their hand at my utter foolishness and go on about the business of seeing
>> to
>> their comfort and their wealth. Israel thought the Prophet a foolish
>> person
>> too, if I recall. Until they awoke one morning to the blood-thirsty horde
>> of
>> looters and rapists outside the walls. A few months later they were
>> cooking
>> and eating their own children.
>> The signs are there for anyone willing to see. When the pretext of 9-11
>> came
>> along and gave us "Homeland Security" and the "Patriot Act" I saw the end
>> of
>> the road where that will lead. I understood that "muslim extremists" 
>> would
>> not be the final victims of these evil laws. I understood that rights,
>> once
>> usurped by government, are forever lost. I understood that, just as in
>> Nazi
>> Germany, the suspension of judicial oversight over powers of arrest,
>> detention and seizure will be expanded beyond the stated pretext for 
>> their
>> creation to eventually be used for any purpose the government deems
>> expedient. I understood that from that day forward a defacto police 
>> state,
>> just like in Nazi Germany, already exists in Amerika, regardless of
>> whether
>> the government chooses to openly so conduct itself at this time.
>>
>> I predicted the collapse of the housing and financial markets eight years
>> before the ostriches saw it coming. I looked at the signs and I saw it
>> coming. I perceived and understood the fraudulent way the Amerikan
>> government dupes the public, propping up the appearance of a healthy
>> economy
>> by manipulating the reporting of selected "indicators". I saw and
>> understood
>> how a fantasy perception of "economic growth" is generated and 
>> continually
>> perpetuated by the fraud of allowing ever more extensive and
>> uncollateralized credit use by individuals, business and government. I
>> understood the unsustainability and the unavoidable collapse of a system
>> that allows everyone to perpetually spend more than they take in. I saw
>> and
>> understood the implication of allowing mega-business to move their
>> operations "off-shore" so that ever more currency is siphoned off from
>> circulation in the American economy. I saw and understood the implication
>> of
>> the government printing wads more money than it takes in, just as in Nazi
>> Germany, to pay for programs it can't afford like the occupation and
>> subjugation of foreign lands and to dole out billions that it does not
>> have
>> for "economic stimulus". I understood and I saw the inevitability of the
>> "crisis".
>>
>> In America the ignorant and unperceptive say, "Prices have risen too
>> high".
>> The government encourages that false perception to divert public eyes 
>> from
>> the truth. The truth is that the government is ravenously stealing from
>> the
>> people by just printing up and spending whatever money it wants without
>> regard to its income. The simple economic truth is that prices have not
>> "gone up" but rather "money has gone down". The truth is that the
>> government
>> is selling out the people by prostituting itself to serve mega-business
>> contrary to the interests of the people.
>>
>> When this huge fraud inevitably collapses there will be hordes of angry,
>> suffering, hungry people looking for someone to blame, looking for 
>> someone
>> to punish. It is absolutely certain that those in government are not 
>> going
>> to take the blame for this. Someone, however, will take the blame and pay
>> the price and history tells us who that someone will be. If the Jews of
>> Amerika have not learned anything from the Germany of the Holocaust, I
>> have.
>> Jews are always the scapegoat.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Photo, above - Jews being paraded and ridiculed through German streets,
>> 1938. Could the same thing happen in America?*
>>
>> The more things change, the more they remain the same. The Jews of 
>> Germany
>> had the same sure warnings as ancient Israel had. They chose
>> self-deception,
>> "That can't happen here", and did not flee. Hashem permitted them the 
>> fate
>> they chose. The Jews of Germany ignored the unpleasant fact of Amalek's
>> return and went to their doom.
>>
>> Amalek is back and this time it is the ostrich Jews of Amerika who have
>> their heads stuck in the sand. Amalek will not stay his hand from evil
>> because we wish it so. All the same signs are there for the Jews of
>> Amerika
>> that were there for the Jews of Germany. Like the Jews of Germany, the
>> Jews
>> of Amerika refuse to see. Once again the dark spirit of Amalek is
>> marshalling the evil might of a world with no love for Jews for one more
>> onslaught in evil's perpetual resolve to eradicate the Jews.
>>
>> Like the Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika have clogged their ears
>> against the din of the approaching hell-storm. Like the Jews of Germany,
>> the
>> Jews of Amerika deceive themselves with the same wishful thought, "Things
>> are different now. This is America. We are safe. That could never happen
>> here." Like the Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika are wrong. Like the
>> Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika will suffer destruction in an
>> implacable wave of unbearable agony and torment, G-d forbid.
>>
>> This is the fate of the Jews of Amerika as things stand, though it need
>> not
>> be so. We know that teshuva and tefilla can reverse the evil decree. Our
>> history is replete with proof that we can turn from sin to Hashem and
>> Torah
>> and Hashem will rescue us from evil decrees. Even without teshuva it is
>> possible for us to stand invincible before our enemies. As Rav Shalom
>> Arush
>> points out, "When the Jews worshiped idols but remained united, They went
>> to
>> war and won." So, the fate of the Jews of Amerika is not set in stone.
>> There
>> is always the possibility that they will open their eyes and do teshuva
>> before Hashem. There is always the possibility that they will throw aside
>> the petty denominational differences and stand as one.
>>
>> Still, I would rather not wait around to see. I want out. If I am to
>> suffer
>> or be martyred let it be standing on Holy Eretz Israel. If I am to have
>> joy
>> and abundance let it be standing on Holy Eretz Israel.
>>
>> It is not only the Jews of Amerika I lament for. I see the evil gathering
>> itself against our Holy Land. I hear the distant thunder of the
>> approaching
>> cavalcade of blood lust. I see the darkening sky that heralds evil's
>> implacable approach. I hear the growing din of Amalek's raging,
>> hate-filled
>> scream for more rivers of Jewish blood. Unlike some, I do not expect
>> Moshiach to suddenly appear and rescue us. It didn't happen that way all
>> the
>> other times and I don't see that this time is any different. We still
>> haven't done our part! Until we understand and learn the lesson there is
>> no
>> reason for things to change. The Land of Israel is the key. Hashem
>> commanded
>> us to settle the land. Hashem commanded us to cleanse the land.
>>
>> We should mind that the first man to fall under a Maccabe sword was not a
>> Greek usurper but a Jew who ran to do the Greek bidding. Maccabe arrows
>> did
>> not distinguish between Greek oppressor and the assimilators who did 
>> their
>> bidding. They struck them all down equally. Gush Katif was allowed to
>> happened because holy people do not yet understand what is before us. 
>> Holy
>> people are still standing with hands clasped waiting for Moshiach to
>> rescue
>> us when Hashem has put the outcome in our hands.
>>
>> Hashem did not say, "Sit on your hands in the land and wait until 
>> Moshiach
>> comes to do your job for you". Hashem said, "drive out all the 
>> inhabitants
>> of the land from before you, destroy all their temples, destroy their
>> molten
>> idols, and demolish their high places". Hashem said, "clear out the Land
>> and
>> settle in it". Hashem said, "You shall utterly destroy them; neither 
>> shall
>> you make a covenant with them, nor be gracious to them". Hashem said, 
>> "You
>> shall demolish their altars and smash their monuments, and cut down their
>> asherim trees, and burn their graven images with fire". Hashem said, "You
>> do
>> this!" He did not say, "Wait for Moshiach to come and do it".
>>
>> The Torah commands us to take up the sword and remove all goyim from the
>> land of Israel. The Torah commands us to take up the sword and remove all
>> idol worshippers and things of idol worship from the Land of Israel. The
>> Torah commands us to clear and settle all of the Land of Israel. These
>> commands are just as fully our Torah obligations as any of the other
>> obligations we take upon ourselves. In my mind we are no more free to
>> ignore
>> or refrain from them than we are free to ignore or refrain from any other
>> mitzvot. That they seem impossible is no excuse. That "the world" will
>> disapprove or hate us is no excuse. Hashem commanded. Who dares say, "We
>> should ot obey?"
>>
>> Would we eat a pig because the world would hate us if we don't? Would we
>> sacrifice a pig on a pagan altar because the world would attack us if we
>> do
>> not? No! There is therefore no excuse. If we claim to be Torah observant
>> Jews we must observe all of the mitzvot. We must cleanse the Land or
>> Hashem
>> will kick us off the land AGAIN.
>>
>> The root of all the trouble we have in the world from the day we crossed
>> Jordan until today is our refusal in every generation to do with the Land
>> as
>> we have been commanded. I submit that Moshiach will not come and perform
>> this obligation for us. We are given this duty to perform ourselves. If 
>> we
>> want miracles, if we want Hashem in our midst, if we want Moshiach we
>> cannot
>> sit on our hands and ignore our obligations for another generation. We
>> must
>> all go home to settle all of our Heritage, fully cleanse our Land and
>> raise
>> up the Beit HaMikdash as Hashem commanded us. Am I the only one who sees
>> this?
>>
>>
>> (Former US Army special ops commando Bob Blue is a specialist in
>> hand-to-hand warfare and coach of the Nevada
>> <http://www.combat-sport.com/maccabe/>team)
>> Maccabee Strength and Power Sports <http://www.combat-sport.com/maccabe/>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:02:30 -0600
>> From: "stephen" <stephen at 777jesusislord.com>
>> Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>> Message-ID: <E0AEA6842A2A490F8531FD9BE262AA75 at SEWVAC011>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> I had a Christian minister write me, who believes in Jesus as
>> Messiah and Savior, and he is ordering 60 copies to pass out to
>> everyone he knows
>>
>> I was rather blown away that this would be my largest "outside"
>> order of the book to date.
>>
>> People are hungry for truth.  Anyone who honestly searches
>> scripture, who is a gentile, as I am, will come to the conclusion
>> that the ROOT of Hashem's relation to the gentiles, is predicated
>> on the L-rd's relation to Israel, and to the *children* so dearly dearly
>> loved that are called to Hashem.
>>
>> And while there are still "christians" who kill and hate Jews....
>> they are not of my blood.
>>
>> Genesis 12:3 specifically tells me to Bless those children who
>> come from the loins of Abraham.  And I had a friend who taught
>> me to be practical with it.  While I am "poor" -- I send a widow's
>> mite to the head of a family in Jerusalem, amazing what you can
>> do online.... By blessing a single family, I know, while my mite
>> is small, it will help a family more than it would some big organization.
>> If everyone would pick out a family to give to, and bypass the
>> organizations.. give to real people.....
>>
>> I listened to one of the teachings --- just a blessing to listen to
>> them.  Obviously, the Oracles of G-d have been committed to
>> the Jews, and a gentile such as myself, can learn a lot, if he
>> but open his ears.
>>
>> I've probably said too much, but I prefer to feel welcome and
>> and at peace unless I am told not to be.
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>
>> Tikkun  Tzedek
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:53 PM
>> Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
>>
>>
>>> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
>>> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>   1. Restoring Abrahamic Faith Update (James Tabor)
>>>   2. Re: Down With Hanukah (Pat Robbins)
>>>   3. Re: Down With Hanukah (Vegemite Rose)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:59:31 -0500
>>> From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
>>> Subject: [Dialogue] Restoring Abrahamic Faith Update
>>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>> Message-ID: <C451E22C-864C-4353-84E8-DAEEED1D22EF at earthlink.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Thanks Cornie, I am glad to hear you have benefited from it. Here is a
>>> little report on RAF that I just wrote up that I will pass on to you
>>> and others on the Dialogue list:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I am really encouraged this week with the various responses I am
>>>> getting to Restoring Abrahamic Faith. I wanted to share with you
>>>> all. I think slowly people are reading it and passing on the word,
>>>> mouth to mouth, plus others are ordering more copies, having gotten
>>>> their first one and read it, to pass on to others.
>>>>
>>>> I had a Christian minister write me, who believes in Jesus as
>>>> Messiah and Savior, and he is ordering 60 copies to pass out to
>>>> everyone he knows. Even though he realizes the book is not
>>>> explicitly "Christian," in terms of identifying who the Davidic
>>>> messiah might be, he was so taken with the One God message, and the
>>>> basic emphasis on recovering Hebraic faith, that Yeshua surely had,
>>>> he wants to get this word out. Folks, this is a pastor of a church.
>>>> I was rather blown away that this would be my largest "outside"
>>>> order of the book to date.
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime I heard from Vendyl and Anita Jones who have read
>>>> the book, loved it, and have ordered 25 copies. They asked me to
>>>> inscribe personally each one, which I am glad to do, and they are
>>>> giving them to everyone they know and care about--friends,
>>>> relatives, associated.
>>>>
>>>> I just got this nice endorsement from Mike Dallen of
>>>> rainbowcoveant.org, a Web site I mention in the book and highly
>>>> recommend: -- Restoring Abrahamic Faith, by James D. Tabor; revised
>>>> 3rd edition, 2008 (Genesis 2000, Charlotte, North Carolina).
>>>> Softcover, 171 pages. We have a long friendly relationship with Dr.
>>>> Tabor, and he speaks very positively of TRC here, but we would still
>>>> be calling this terrific little book a "must read" even if we hated
>>>> him (God forbid). We love this book because it takes the Bible
>>>> completely seriously, explores it fearlessly, following the text
>>>> itself, and other sources, and explains things - including, e.g.,
>>>> the nature and early history of Christianity, but also many aspects
>>>> of the Torah Tradition itself - directly, simply, and (best of all)
>>>> honestly. This is an open-hearted, large-souled book, very American,
>>>> in its way, which convincingly explains why the whole human race
>>>> needs to re-think the Bible and restore the ancient faith of Abraham.
>>>>
>>>> Another woman in TX ordered 24 copies just last week to give to
>>>> friends and family.
>>>>
>>>> Just today our own Jeanne Rees wrote me that she would like order 12
>>>> copies to give away. Jeanne is such an amazing person in that she
>>>> has probably spread more copies around of this book over the years
>>>> than anyone I can think of. Her income is limited but she wants to
>>>> pass these around to friends and associates.
>>>>
>>>> I continue to hear from others, inside our circles and outside. Dear
>>>> Amy Suoz wrote me the most wonderfully encouraging note this week,
>>>> telling me she had finished the book, was amazingly moved, and
>>>> planned to order more as well. Many others have written similar
>>>> things.
>>>>
>>>> In terms of costs we have tried to make the book as reasonable as
>>>> possible. $15 is a fair price for a book of this quality and size,
>>>> and we have not gotten even half our initial printing costs back
>>>> yet, though I have no doubt we will in time. Once we break even any
>>>> profits will just go into printing more copies, so things will
>>>> continually multiply.
>>>>
>>>> We can offer multiple copies at reduced prices and if you are
>>>> interested see: http://genesis2000.org/order-information/
>>>>
>>>> Take care and best to all,
>>>>
>>>> James
>>>>
>>> On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:53 PM, Cornie Reimer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Amen!!!  I would be interested to listen in and learn.
>>>>
>>>>  Say James I am just about done reading your book "RESTORING
>>>> ABRAHAMIC FAITH" I was a bit hesitant to order it. But I am so glad
>>>> I did.  That is so good. I respected your views before already. But
>>>> it seems to me you  must have done a fair bit of research in your
>>>> life, to find the truth. I am not saying that you and I don't have
>>>> more to learn. Some time I would like to read more of your books.
>>>>
>>>> Shalom
>>>>
>>>> Cornie
>>>>
>>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:03:54 -0500
>>> From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>> Message-ID: <BLU125-DS204497B91E37F7893CB61BAFA0 at phx.gbl>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Of course we feel inclined to keep up our prayers for Jamie, Cornie!
>>> It's so great to hear how he is progressing.  Thank you for this email.
>>> (It also blesses me to hear the good reports of your marriage.)
>>>
>>> Love,
>>>
>>> Pat
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Cornie Reimer
>>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:35 PM
>>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>>
>>>
>>> Shalom Jessica, Pat and anyone interested. Baruch Hashem it is so
>>> uplifting to read and learn from people who love truth and 
>>> righteousness.
>>> I fully agree with what you have been sharing. I have read some of Rabbi
>>> Meir Kahane's books. They are so good. I sometimes get quite 
>>> disheartened
>>> at myself when I find how much I have missed throughout life. When all
>>> along I had been thinking I wanted nothing but the truth, even as a
>>> Christian.
>>>
>>> It was only after I finally realized that I could learn far more from
>>> Judaism than anywhere else, that I became aware of it to be possible to
>>> become an overcomer. It has been so humiliating yet so rewarding, even
>>> after years of studying Judaism now, how far I still had come off track
>>> from the ways of Hashem. One thing especially being shalom beis, (peace
>>> in the home). Yes i have a challenge living together with a Bi-polar
>>> strong willed Christian wife, now for over 50 years. And she has all of
>>> our 8 children on her side, in the church. But now, finally, only
>>> starting the last couple of years, I can see her meant for me, a 
>>> suitable
>>> partner exactly for me. A beautiful gift, just what I needed for a
>>> correction of my own soul!!!! Life is pleasant living with her once I
>>> learn to be a man, (not with a feminine mentality) Only in Judaism I am
>>> finally learning that it is up to a man to give of himself. Yes give,
>>> give, give, without expecting to receive. And the situations just turn
>>> around like magic. Some times they don't even seem to change. But
>>> nevertheless, that is good exercise. It now re-leaves me of so much
>>> un-necessary pain of grief and getting offended. Even when I am
>>> misunderstood so often. But it makes a world of a difference how a man
>>> responds!!!!!!
>>>
>>> I am studying a book by the title "The Garden of Peace" A marriage guide
>>> for men only. It was an interesting observation just recently when I
>>> introduced this book to one of my sons. He is married to a nice woman of
>>> good character, they have a nice family of 4 children, and a fairly good
>>> shalom bais in their home, that is, for a Christian home. But he was
>>> curious and wondered if he could learn something from a Jewish
>>> perspective. But he did not get through reading it and gave it back to 
>>> me
>>> commenting  even though very carefully, " That book just has too much of
>>> The Law in it". A Christian does not need to be under the law, like a
>>> Jew, is what he was trying to tell me. It is so sad that Christians 
>>> don't
>>> realize how liberating the way's of Hashem's Laws really are.
>>>
>>> We have Bi-polar among our children too, Jamie, our only grandson who
>>> really starts to respect what I believe, is 16, the son of our youngest
>>> son Ruben, who is very seriously Bi-polar. Otherwise popular in society.
>>> But Jamie already is far more reasonable to deal with when approached in
>>> the ways of Hashem than his rigid dad. Jamie has suffered seriously 
>>> under
>>> the tutorship of his dad, to the point of rebelling against the system,
>>> seeing Christianity as a very shallow faith to live by. And as a result
>>> he just about gave up faith in Hashem. Or even the god of Christianity.
>>> But, Baruch Hashem, I had an opportunity to take him to a Chabad house 
>>> in
>>> Winnipeg on Shabat, and we were invited into a Jewish home after that,
>>> who were an old acquaintance of mine from the time I used to go to the
>>> Synagogue there. A couple of weeks prior to this, I took him to the
>>> synagogue on his own request. Jamie is doing fine now, getting out of
>>> the prison of religion. He resides in a Foster home and takes grade 10 
>>> in
>>> a Public school. I have told him over and over, don't follow me but
>>> rather make your own choice. At one point he actually told me he
>>> appreciated it that I was giving him that choice. His foster home is a
>>> Christian Pastors home, but not so much a boxed in Mennonitism. The
>>> challenges are quite strong in an atmosphere where he has had no prior
>>> roots of experience to guide him except the constant reminder of his
>>> health issue because of his kidney transplant 3 years ago. He is
>>> constantly under medication. And I am so grateful for all of you who 
>>> have
>>> offered prayers for him. Please keep it up if you feel so inclined.
>>>
>>> Shalom
>>>
>>> Cornie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vegemite Rose wrote:
>>>  Indeed Pat, the Prophets and Writings are Torah driven and if we lived
>>> according to the ways of HaShem, what a wonderful world it would be.
>>> (even if only within our own utopian community)
>>>  Neither am I brave and unyielding to sin, but Pat, we are doing our 
>>> best
>>> to live in the ways of HaShem in a world that doesn't care about it's
>>> Creator and is rapidly losing it's care for the value of life itself. 
>>> Our
>>> world appears to be on the slippery slope of 'every man/woman/child for
>>> themselves'. Praise HaShem for the voice of the Prophets and for the
>>> continuance of the straight forward, no holds barred teachings of the
>>> martyred Rabbi Meir Kahane, and many others like him.
>>>  Praise HaShem for the voice of The Synagogue Without Walls and its
>>> ability to reach all the way around our world and assist with the
>>> in-gathering of the Whole House Of Israel, and for its ability for us to
>>> communicate and lift each other up and spread the teachings of people
>>> such as the late Rabbi.
>>>  As Joe will attest, I have been saying for a long time, that I believe
>>> the Torah to be a straight forward and simple message for how we, the
>>> Created, should live with each other and in relation to our Creator. I
>>> favour simplicity Pat. I find the more complicated the teachings of 
>>> Torah
>>> become, the less interested I become in it.
>>>  Again - praise to HaShem for Rabbi Meir Kahane's straight forward 
>>> style.
>>> That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the deeper meanings of Torah
>>> and it's greater purpose for the rectification of our world and the
>>> universe. However, if we all lived by the simple and pure ways of Torah,
>>> then the greater purpose would be accomplished - wouldn't it?
>>>  I'm glad you appreciate this article Pat - I hope others can also see
>>> the truth of it.
>>>  Brachot v'Shalom
>>>  Jessica
>>>
>>>  Pat Robbins wrote:
>>>    This will shake you up!!!!  I applaud you, Jessica, for challenging 
>>> us
>>> with Rabbi Meir Kahane's no-holds-barred teaching.  We have been
>>> conditioned to live in the gray areas, no longer recognizing the
>>> boundaries of black and white, right and wrong.  We have blurred the
>>> words of our Prophets until they've become politically correct enough to
>>> suit our behavior.  We have defaced the Holy Torah with our better, more
>>> "enlightened" and visionary dreams of a utopian society where hugs
>>> replace justice, and coldblooded murderers are released to kill again 
>>> and
>>> again.
>>>
>>>    We need to study very carefully all that the Torah, Prophets and
>>> Writings teach us, then act accordingly.
>>>
>>>    I am not brave and unyielding to sin like Rabbi Kahane was.  I have
>>> comfortably settled into a monochromatic palette of gray...........but I
>>> want to change.  I want to follow HaShem at all costs.  I want to be so
>>> much better than I am.  Thank you for encouraging us, Jessica, with the
>>> teachings of this man who challenges one and all to follow G-d.
>>>
>>>    Pat
>>>
>>>
>>>    From: Vegemite Rose
>>>    Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:15 AM
>>>    To: Roots Of Faith Dialogue List
>>>    Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>>
>>>
>>>    Shalom to All,
>>>    I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown away
>>> by his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be forgotten and may
>>> his teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land, the Torah, the Covenant
>>> and the Holy People.
>>>    Blessings from Jessica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Down With Hanukah
>>>    By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l
>>>
>>>    If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment
>>> whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the
>>> leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members of
>>> the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened
>>> sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the barricades
>>> and join in battle against that most dangerous of all Jewish holidays -
>>> Hanukah.
>>>
>>>    It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community
>>> that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the
>>> "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual
>>> dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along with
>>> the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that stands for everything that
>>> the masses of world Jewry and their leadership has rejected - it is this
>>> one. If one would find an event that is truly rooted in everything that
>>> Jews of our times and their leaders have rejected and, indeed, 
>>> attacked -
>>> it is this one. If there is any holiday that is more "un-Jewish" in the
>>> sense of our modern beliefs and practices - I do not know of it.
>>>
>>>    The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its
>>> childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the
>>> Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish
>>> parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract Christmas;
>>> that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our-
>>> goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children with
>>> eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that the
>>> Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so that 
>>> the
>>> beaming parents might think that the Religious School is really
>>> successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it really is; the
>>> Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me- liberty-or-death
>>> and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal saviors who fought so
>>> that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to preach their Marx and 
>>> eat
>>> their ham, that the split-level dwellers of suburbia might be allowed to
>>> violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom and the Reform and Conservative
>>> Temples continue to fight for civil rights for Blacks, Puerto Ricans and
>>> Jane Fonda, is not remotely connected with reality.
>>>
>>>    This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews
>>> of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is
>>> surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. Truly,
>>> could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see what Hanukah
>>> has become, they might very well begin a second Maccabean revolt. For 
>>> the
>>> life that we Jews lead today was the very cause, the real reason, for 
>>> the
>>> revolt of the Jews "in those days in our times."
>>>
>>>    What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a 
>>> handful
>>> of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And precisely who was
>>> the enemy? What were they fighting for and who were they fighting
>>> against?
>>>
>>>    For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True
>>> independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, yet,
>>> the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek policy
>>> shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to suppress 
>>> the
>>> Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its bloodiness. It was 
>>> not
>>> mere liberty that led to the Maccabean uprising that we so passionately
>>> applaud. What we are really cheering is a brave group of Jews who fought
>>> and plunged Judea into a bloodbath for the right to observe the Sabbath,
>>> to follow the laws of kashrut, to obey the laws of the Torah. In a world
>>> where everything about Hanukah that we commemorate, and teach our
>>> children to commemorate, are things we consider to be outmoded, medieval
>>> and childish!
>>>
>>>    At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and
>>> obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have 
>>> done
>>> what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are not
>>> really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not the
>>> Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative movements
>>> write this daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that which we
>>> violate every day of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges as a 
>>> needless
>>> holiday if not a foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven children; poor
>>> Mattathias and Judah; poor well meaning chaps all - but hopelessly
>>> backward and utterly unnecessary sacrifices.
>>>
>>>    But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and
>>> unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and
>>> illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at the
>>> hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children portray so
>>> cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants, was not a Greek.
>>> He was a Jew.
>>>
>>>    When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and 
>>> demand
>>> its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom of pagan
>>> worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After all, what
>>> business was it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And it was this
>>> Jew, this apostate, this religious traitor who was struck down by the
>>> brave, glorious, courageous, (are these not the words all our Sunday
>>> schools use to describe him) Mattathias, as he shouted: "Whoever is for
>>> G-d, follow me!"
>>>
>>>    What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry?
>>> What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair, 
>>> the
>>> graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, the
>>> liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us unto
>>> death with the concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded,
>>> undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to honor?
>>> What kind of nationalism is this for Shimon Peres (he who rejects the
>>> 'Galut' and speaks of the proud, free Jew of ancient Judea and Israel)?
>>>
>>>    And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of
>>> peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who reacted
>>> to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have deplored Jewish
>>> violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- Jewish, stand in
>>> horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket the Syrian Greeks 
>>> to
>>> death and who rejected quiet diplomacy for the sword, spear and arrow
>>> (had there been bombs in those days, who can tell what they might have
>>> done?) and "descended to the level of 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical
>>> and moral concepts of Judaism.
>>>
>>>    Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the
>>> kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is this
>>> the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our children?
>>> Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in the wilderness
>>> to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it represents - the
>>> Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?
>>>
>>>    Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the
>>> Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of bigotry
>>> that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the Judaism of
>>> violence that calls for Jewish force and might against the enemy? When
>>> shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese food and violate 
>>> our
>>> Sabbaths and reject all the separateness, nationalism and religious
>>> maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly represents? Down with Hanukah! It is 
>>> a
>>> regressive holiday that merely symbolizes the Judaism that always was;
>>> the Judaism that was handed down to us from Sinai; the Judaism that made
>>> our ancestors ready to give their lives for the L-rd; the Judaism that
>>> young people instinctively know is true and great and real. Such a
>>> Judaism is dangerous for us and our leaders. We must do all in our power
>>> to bury it.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:22:56 +1030
>>> From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>> Message-ID: <493DEB98.5070800 at y7mail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
>>> ***************************************
>>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 22
>> ***************************************
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:06:41 -0500
> From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 22
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <BLU125-DS6E78168FD5D42DA2A9362BAFA0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Stephen, if you are wanting to order Restoring Abrahamic Faith. single
> copies are $15, but for multiple copies, there is a discount.  The address
> to order from is:  http://genesis2000.org
>
> I think you'll be very glad you read it.
>
> As for the other topic you mentioned re "Will Moshiach Do My Job," I tend 
> to
> agree with the author that things may not be looking too good for Jews in
> the US, or possibly even for those who support Israel.  Hope that's a 
> wrong
> assessment.
>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "stephen" <stephen at 777jesusislord.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:45 AM
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 22
>
>> How do I order copies,  Who do I make a check out to?
>> Where do I send it?
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>   1. An article I TOTALLY relate to.... (Hanoch Young)
>>>   2. Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21 (stephen)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 05:37:22 -0800
>>> From: "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [Dialogue] An article I TOTALLY relate to....
>>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <855590370812090537v43fbe65aj8faea53ab8688bab at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>>    Home
>>> <http://www.breslev.co.il/default.aspx?language=english>Society<http://www.breslev.co.il/categories/society.aspx?category=29&pageid=1&language=english>Jewish
>>> World<http://www.breslev.co.il/categories/society/jewish_world.aspx?category=39&pageid=1&language=english>Will
>>> Moshiach Do My Job?     [image: Will Moshiach Do My Job?]
>>> By: Bob
>>> Blue<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=bob+blue&type=1&fullType=authors&language=English>
>>>  [image: Email This Article]  [image: Print version]
>>>
>>> I am concerned about Jews in America. They just will not listen.  When I
>>> tell people what is coming the "wise ones" just smile tolerantly behind
>>> their hand at my utter foolishness and go on about the business of 
>>> seeing
>>> to
>>> their comfort and their wealth. Israel thought the Prophet a foolish
>>> person
>>> too, if I recall. Until they awoke one morning to the blood-thirsty 
>>> horde
>>> of
>>> looters and rapists outside the walls. A few months later they were
>>> cooking
>>> and eating their own children.
>>> The signs are there for anyone willing to see. When the pretext of 9-11
>>> came
>>> along and gave us "Homeland Security" and the "Patriot Act" I saw the 
>>> end
>>> of
>>> the road where that will lead. I understood that "muslim extremists"
>>> would
>>> not be the final victims of these evil laws. I understood that rights,
>>> once
>>> usurped by government, are forever lost. I understood that, just as in
>>> Nazi
>>> Germany, the suspension of judicial oversight over powers of arrest,
>>> detention and seizure will be expanded beyond the stated pretext for
>>> their
>>> creation to eventually be used for any purpose the government deems
>>> expedient. I understood that from that day forward a defacto police
>>> state,
>>> just like in Nazi Germany, already exists in Amerika, regardless of
>>> whether
>>> the government chooses to openly so conduct itself at this time.
>>>
>>> I predicted the collapse of the housing and financial markets eight 
>>> years
>>> before the ostriches saw it coming. I looked at the signs and I saw it
>>> coming. I perceived and understood the fraudulent way the Amerikan
>>> government dupes the public, propping up the appearance of a healthy
>>> economy
>>> by manipulating the reporting of selected "indicators". I saw and
>>> understood
>>> how a fantasy perception of "economic growth" is generated and
>>> continually
>>> perpetuated by the fraud of allowing ever more extensive and
>>> uncollateralized credit use by individuals, business and government. I
>>> understood the unsustainability and the unavoidable collapse of a system
>>> that allows everyone to perpetually spend more than they take in. I saw
>>> and
>>> understood the implication of allowing mega-business to move their
>>> operations "off-shore" so that ever more currency is siphoned off from
>>> circulation in the American economy. I saw and understood the 
>>> implication
>>> of
>>> the government printing wads more money than it takes in, just as in 
>>> Nazi
>>> Germany, to pay for programs it can't afford like the occupation and
>>> subjugation of foreign lands and to dole out billions that it does not
>>> have
>>> for "economic stimulus". I understood and I saw the inevitability of the
>>> "crisis".
>>>
>>> In America the ignorant and unperceptive say, "Prices have risen too
>>> high".
>>> The government encourages that false perception to divert public eyes
>>> from
>>> the truth. The truth is that the government is ravenously stealing from
>>> the
>>> people by just printing up and spending whatever money it wants without
>>> regard to its income. The simple economic truth is that prices have not
>>> "gone up" but rather "money has gone down". The truth is that the
>>> government
>>> is selling out the people by prostituting itself to serve mega-business
>>> contrary to the interests of the people.
>>>
>>> When this huge fraud inevitably collapses there will be hordes of angry,
>>> suffering, hungry people looking for someone to blame, looking for
>>> someone
>>> to punish. It is absolutely certain that those in government are not
>>> going
>>> to take the blame for this. Someone, however, will take the blame and 
>>> pay
>>> the price and history tells us who that someone will be. If the Jews of
>>> Amerika have not learned anything from the Germany of the Holocaust, I
>>> have.
>>> Jews are always the scapegoat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Photo, above - Jews being paraded and ridiculed through German streets,
>>> 1938. Could the same thing happen in America?*
>>>
>>> The more things change, the more they remain the same. The Jews of
>>> Germany
>>> had the same sure warnings as ancient Israel had. They chose
>>> self-deception,
>>> "That can't happen here", and did not flee. Hashem permitted them the
>>> fate
>>> they chose. The Jews of Germany ignored the unpleasant fact of Amalek's
>>> return and went to their doom.
>>>
>>> Amalek is back and this time it is the ostrich Jews of Amerika who have
>>> their heads stuck in the sand. Amalek will not stay his hand from evil
>>> because we wish it so. All the same signs are there for the Jews of
>>> Amerika
>>> that were there for the Jews of Germany. Like the Jews of Germany, the
>>> Jews
>>> of Amerika refuse to see. Once again the dark spirit of Amalek is
>>> marshalling the evil might of a world with no love for Jews for one more
>>> onslaught in evil's perpetual resolve to eradicate the Jews.
>>>
>>> Like the Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika have clogged their ears
>>> against the din of the approaching hell-storm. Like the Jews of Germany,
>>> the
>>> Jews of Amerika deceive themselves with the same wishful thought, 
>>> "Things
>>> are different now. This is America. We are safe. That could never happen
>>> here." Like the Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika are wrong. Like the
>>> Jews of Germany, the Jews of Amerika will suffer destruction in an
>>> implacable wave of unbearable agony and torment, G-d forbid.
>>>
>>> This is the fate of the Jews of Amerika as things stand, though it need
>>> not
>>> be so. We know that teshuva and tefilla can reverse the evil decree. Our
>>> history is replete with proof that we can turn from sin to Hashem and
>>> Torah
>>> and Hashem will rescue us from evil decrees. Even without teshuva it is
>>> possible for us to stand invincible before our enemies. As Rav Shalom
>>> Arush
>>> points out, "When the Jews worshiped idols but remained united, They 
>>> went
>>> to
>>> war and won." So, the fate of the Jews of Amerika is not set in stone.
>>> There
>>> is always the possibility that they will open their eyes and do teshuva
>>> before Hashem. There is always the possibility that they will throw 
>>> aside
>>> the petty denominational differences and stand as one.
>>>
>>> Still, I would rather not wait around to see. I want out. If I am to
>>> suffer
>>> or be martyred let it be standing on Holy Eretz Israel. If I am to have
>>> joy
>>> and abundance let it be standing on Holy Eretz Israel.
>>>
>>> It is not only the Jews of Amerika I lament for. I see the evil 
>>> gathering
>>> itself against our Holy Land. I hear the distant thunder of the
>>> approaching
>>> cavalcade of blood lust. I see the darkening sky that heralds evil's
>>> implacable approach. I hear the growing din of Amalek's raging,
>>> hate-filled
>>> scream for more rivers of Jewish blood. Unlike some, I do not expect
>>> Moshiach to suddenly appear and rescue us. It didn't happen that way all
>>> the
>>> other times and I don't see that this time is any different. We still
>>> haven't done our part! Until we understand and learn the lesson there is
>>> no
>>> reason for things to change. The Land of Israel is the key. Hashem
>>> commanded
>>> us to settle the land. Hashem commanded us to cleanse the land.
>>>
>>> We should mind that the first man to fall under a Maccabe sword was not 
>>> a
>>> Greek usurper but a Jew who ran to do the Greek bidding. Maccabe arrows
>>> did
>>> not distinguish between Greek oppressor and the assimilators who did
>>> their
>>> bidding. They struck them all down equally. Gush Katif was allowed to
>>> happened because holy people do not yet understand what is before us.
>>> Holy
>>> people are still standing with hands clasped waiting for Moshiach to
>>> rescue
>>> us when Hashem has put the outcome in our hands.
>>>
>>> Hashem did not say, "Sit on your hands in the land and wait until
>>> Moshiach
>>> comes to do your job for you". Hashem said, "drive out all the
>>> inhabitants
>>> of the land from before you, destroy all their temples, destroy their
>>> molten
>>> idols, and demolish their high places". Hashem said, "clear out the Land
>>> and
>>> settle in it". Hashem said, "You shall utterly destroy them; neither
>>> shall
>>> you make a covenant with them, nor be gracious to them". Hashem said,
>>> "You
>>> shall demolish their altars and smash their monuments, and cut down 
>>> their
>>> asherim trees, and burn their graven images with fire". Hashem said, 
>>> "You
>>> do
>>> this!" He did not say, "Wait for Moshiach to come and do it".
>>>
>>> The Torah commands us to take up the sword and remove all goyim from the
>>> land of Israel. The Torah commands us to take up the sword and remove 
>>> all
>>> idol worshippers and things of idol worship from the Land of Israel. The
>>> Torah commands us to clear and settle all of the Land of Israel. These
>>> commands are just as fully our Torah obligations as any of the other
>>> obligations we take upon ourselves. In my mind we are no more free to
>>> ignore
>>> or refrain from them than we are free to ignore or refrain from any 
>>> other
>>> mitzvot. That they seem impossible is no excuse. That "the world" will
>>> disapprove or hate us is no excuse. Hashem commanded. Who dares say, "We
>>> should ot obey?"
>>>
>>> Would we eat a pig because the world would hate us if we don't? Would we
>>> sacrifice a pig on a pagan altar because the world would attack us if we
>>> do
>>> not? No! There is therefore no excuse. If we claim to be Torah observant
>>> Jews we must observe all of the mitzvot. We must cleanse the Land or
>>> Hashem
>>> will kick us off the land AGAIN.
>>>
>>> The root of all the trouble we have in the world from the day we crossed
>>> Jordan until today is our refusal in every generation to do with the 
>>> Land
>>> as
>>> we have been commanded. I submit that Moshiach will not come and perform
>>> this obligation for us. We are given this duty to perform ourselves. If
>>> we
>>> want miracles, if we want Hashem in our midst, if we want Moshiach we
>>> cannot
>>> sit on our hands and ignore our obligations for another generation. We
>>> must
>>> all go home to settle all of our Heritage, fully cleanse our Land and
>>> raise
>>> up the Beit HaMikdash as Hashem commanded us. Am I the only one who sees
>>> this?
>>>
>>>
>>> (Former US Army special ops commando Bob Blue is a specialist in
>>> hand-to-hand warfare and coach of the Nevada
>>> <http://www.combat-sport.com/maccabe/>team)
>>> Maccabee Strength and Power Sports 
>>> <http://www.combat-sport.com/maccabe/>
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:02:30 -0600
>>> From: "stephen" <stephen at 777jesusislord.com>
>>> Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
>>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>> Message-ID: <E0AEA6842A2A490F8531FD9BE262AA75 at SEWVAC011>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> I had a Christian minister write me, who believes in Jesus as
>>> Messiah and Savior, and he is ordering 60 copies to pass out to
>>> everyone he knows
>>>
>>> I was rather blown away that this would be my largest "outside"
>>> order of the book to date.
>>>
>>> People are hungry for truth.  Anyone who honestly searches
>>> scripture, who is a gentile, as I am, will come to the conclusion
>>> that the ROOT of Hashem's relation to the gentiles, is predicated
>>> on the L-rd's relation to Israel, and to the *children* so dearly dearly
>>> loved that are called to Hashem.
>>>
>>> And while there are still "christians" who kill and hate Jews....
>>> they are not of my blood.
>>>
>>> Genesis 12:3 specifically tells me to Bless those children who
>>> come from the loins of Abraham.  And I had a friend who taught
>>> me to be practical with it.  While I am "poor" -- I send a widow's
>>> mite to the head of a family in Jerusalem, amazing what you can
>>> do online.... By blessing a single family, I know, while my mite
>>> is small, it will help a family more than it would some big 
>>> organization.
>>> If everyone would pick out a family to give to, and bypass the
>>> organizations.. give to real people.....
>>>
>>> I listened to one of the teachings --- just a blessing to listen to
>>> them.  Obviously, the Oracles of G-d have been committed to
>>> the Jews, and a gentile such as myself, can learn a lot, if he
>>> but open his ears.
>>>
>>> I've probably said too much, but I prefer to feel welcome and
>>> and at peace unless I am told not to be.
>>>
>>> Stephen
>>>
>>>
>>> Tikkun  Tzedek
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
>>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:53 PM
>>> Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
>>>
>>>
>>>> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
>>>> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>> http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>> dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org
>>>>
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org
>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>>   1. Restoring Abrahamic Faith Update (James Tabor)
>>>>   2. Re: Down With Hanukah (Pat Robbins)
>>>>   3. Re: Down With Hanukah (Vegemite Rose)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:59:31 -0500
>>>> From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
>>>> Subject: [Dialogue] Restoring Abrahamic Faith Update
>>>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>>> Message-ID: <C451E22C-864C-4353-84E8-DAEEED1D22EF at earthlink.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Cornie, I am glad to hear you have benefited from it. Here is a
>>>> little report on RAF that I just wrote up that I will pass on to you
>>>> and others on the Dialogue list:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I am really encouraged this week with the various responses I am
>>>>> getting to Restoring Abrahamic Faith. I wanted to share with you
>>>>> all. I think slowly people are reading it and passing on the word,
>>>>> mouth to mouth, plus others are ordering more copies, having gotten
>>>>> their first one and read it, to pass on to others.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a Christian minister write me, who believes in Jesus as
>>>>> Messiah and Savior, and he is ordering 60 copies to pass out to
>>>>> everyone he knows. Even though he realizes the book is not
>>>>> explicitly "Christian," in terms of identifying who the Davidic
>>>>> messiah might be, he was so taken with the One God message, and the
>>>>> basic emphasis on recovering Hebraic faith, that Yeshua surely had,
>>>>> he wants to get this word out. Folks, this is a pastor of a church.
>>>>> I was rather blown away that this would be my largest "outside"
>>>>> order of the book to date.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the meantime I heard from Vendyl and Anita Jones who have read
>>>>> the book, loved it, and have ordered 25 copies. They asked me to
>>>>> inscribe personally each one, which I am glad to do, and they are
>>>>> giving them to everyone they know and care about--friends,
>>>>> relatives, associated.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just got this nice endorsement from Mike Dallen of
>>>>> rainbowcoveant.org, a Web site I mention in the book and highly
>>>>> recommend: -- Restoring Abrahamic Faith, by James D. Tabor; revised
>>>>> 3rd edition, 2008 (Genesis 2000, Charlotte, North Carolina).
>>>>> Softcover, 171 pages. We have a long friendly relationship with Dr.
>>>>> Tabor, and he speaks very positively of TRC here, but we would still
>>>>> be calling this terrific little book a "must read" even if we hated
>>>>> him (God forbid). We love this book because it takes the Bible
>>>>> completely seriously, explores it fearlessly, following the text
>>>>> itself, and other sources, and explains things - including, e.g.,
>>>>> the nature and early history of Christianity, but also many aspects
>>>>> of the Torah Tradition itself - directly, simply, and (best of all)
>>>>> honestly. This is an open-hearted, large-souled book, very American,
>>>>> in its way, which convincingly explains why the whole human race
>>>>> needs to re-think the Bible and restore the ancient faith of Abraham.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another woman in TX ordered 24 copies just last week to give to
>>>>> friends and family.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just today our own Jeanne Rees wrote me that she would like order 12
>>>>> copies to give away. Jeanne is such an amazing person in that she
>>>>> has probably spread more copies around of this book over the years
>>>>> than anyone I can think of. Her income is limited but she wants to
>>>>> pass these around to friends and associates.
>>>>>
>>>>> I continue to hear from others, inside our circles and outside. Dear
>>>>> Amy Suoz wrote me the most wonderfully encouraging note this week,
>>>>> telling me she had finished the book, was amazingly moved, and
>>>>> planned to order more as well. Many others have written similar
>>>>> things.
>>>>>
>>>>> In terms of costs we have tried to make the book as reasonable as
>>>>> possible. $15 is a fair price for a book of this quality and size,
>>>>> and we have not gotten even half our initial printing costs back
>>>>> yet, though I have no doubt we will in time. Once we break even any
>>>>> profits will just go into printing more copies, so things will
>>>>> continually multiply.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can offer multiple copies at reduced prices and if you are
>>>>> interested see: http://genesis2000.org/order-information/
>>>>>
>>>>> Take care and best to all,
>>>>>
>>>>> James
>>>>>
>>>> On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:53 PM, Cornie Reimer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Amen!!!  I would be interested to listen in and learn.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Say James I am just about done reading your book "RESTORING
>>>>> ABRAHAMIC FAITH" I was a bit hesitant to order it. But I am so glad
>>>>> I did.  That is so good. I respected your views before already. But
>>>>> it seems to me you  must have done a fair bit of research in your
>>>>> life, to find the truth. I am not saying that you and I don't have
>>>>> more to learn. Some time I would like to read more of your books.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shalom
>>>>>
>>>>> Cornie
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:03:54 -0500
>>>> From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>>> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <BLU125-DS204497B91E37F7893CB61BAFA0 at phx.gbl>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>
>>>> Of course we feel inclined to keep up our prayers for Jamie, Cornie!
>>>> It's so great to hear how he is progressing.  Thank you for this email.
>>>> (It also blesses me to hear the good reports of your marriage.)
>>>>
>>>> Love,
>>>>
>>>> Pat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Cornie Reimer
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:35 PM
>>>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Shalom Jessica, Pat and anyone interested. Baruch Hashem it is so
>>>> uplifting to read and learn from people who love truth and
>>>> righteousness. I fully agree with what you have been sharing. I have
>>>> read some of Rabbi Meir Kahane's books. They are so good. I sometimes
>>>> get quite disheartened at myself when I find how much I have missed
>>>> throughout life. When all along I had been thinking I wanted nothing 
>>>> but
>>>> the truth, even as a Christian.
>>>>
>>>> It was only after I finally realized that I could learn far more from
>>>> Judaism than anywhere else, that I became aware of it to be possible to
>>>> become an overcomer. It has been so humiliating yet so rewarding, even
>>>> after years of studying Judaism now, how far I still had come off track
>>>> from the ways of Hashem. One thing especially being shalom beis, (peace
>>>> in the home). Yes i have a challenge living together with a Bi-polar
>>>> strong willed Christian wife, now for over 50 years. And she has all of
>>>> our 8 children on her side, in the church. But now, finally, only
>>>> starting the last couple of years, I can see her meant for me, a
>>>> suitable partner exactly for me. A beautiful gift, just what I needed
>>>> for a correction of my own soul!!!! Life is pleasant living with her
>>>> once I learn to be a man, (not with a feminine mentality) Only in
>>>> Judaism I am finally learning that it is up to a man to give of 
>>>> himself.
>>>> Yes give, give, give, without expecting to receive. And the situations
>>>> just turn around like magic. Some times they don't even seem to change.
>>>> But nevertheless, that is good exercise. It now re-leaves me of so much
>>>> un-necessary pain of grief and getting offended. Even when I am
>>>> misunderstood so often. But it makes a world of a difference how a man
>>>> responds!!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> I am studying a book by the title "The Garden of Peace" A marriage 
>>>> guide
>>>> for men only. It was an interesting observation just recently when I
>>>> introduced this book to one of my sons. He is married to a nice woman 
>>>> of
>>>> good character, they have a nice family of 4 children, and a fairly 
>>>> good
>>>> shalom bais in their home, that is, for a Christian home. But he was
>>>> curious and wondered if he could learn something from a Jewish
>>>> perspective. But he did not get through reading it and gave it back to
>>>> me commenting  even though very carefully, " That book just has too 
>>>> much
>>>> of The Law in it". A Christian does not need to be under the law, like 
>>>> a
>>>> Jew, is what he was trying to tell me. It is so sad that Christians
>>>> don't realize how liberating the way's of Hashem's Laws really are.
>>>>
>>>> We have Bi-polar among our children too, Jamie, our only grandson who
>>>> really starts to respect what I believe, is 16, the son of our youngest
>>>> son Ruben, who is very seriously Bi-polar. Otherwise popular in 
>>>> society.
>>>> But Jamie already is far more reasonable to deal with when approached 
>>>> in
>>>> the ways of Hashem than his rigid dad. Jamie has suffered seriously
>>>> under the tutorship of his dad, to the point of rebelling against the
>>>> system, seeing Christianity as a very shallow faith to live by. And as 
>>>> a
>>>> result he just about gave up faith in Hashem. Or even the god of
>>>> Christianity. But, Baruch Hashem, I had an opportunity to take him to a
>>>> Chabad house in Winnipeg on Shabat, and we were invited into a Jewish
>>>> home after that, who were an old acquaintance of mine from the time I
>>>> used to go to the Synagogue there. A couple of weeks prior to this, I
>>>> took him to the synagogue on his own request. Jamie is doing fine now,
>>>> getting out of the prison of religion. He resides in a Foster home and
>>>> takes grade 10 in a Public school. I have told him over and over, don't
>>>> follow me but rather make your own choice. At one point he actually 
>>>> told
>>>> me he appreciated it that I was giving him that choice. His foster home
>>>> is a Christian Pastors home, but not so much a boxed in Mennonitism. 
>>>> The
>>>> challenges are quite strong in an atmosphere where he has had no prior
>>>> roots of experience to guide him except the constant reminder of his
>>>> health issue because of his kidney transplant 3 years ago. He is
>>>> constantly under medication. And I am so grateful for all of you who
>>>> have offered prayers for him. Please keep it up if you feel so 
>>>> inclined.
>>>>
>>>> Shalom
>>>>
>>>> Cornie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Vegemite Rose wrote:
>>>>  Indeed Pat, the Prophets and Writings are Torah driven and if we lived
>>>> according to the ways of HaShem, what a wonderful world it would be.
>>>> (even if only within our own utopian community)
>>>>  Neither am I brave and unyielding to sin, but Pat, we are doing our
>>>> best to live in the ways of HaShem in a world that doesn't care about
>>>> it's Creator and is rapidly losing it's care for the value of life
>>>> itself. Our world appears to be on the slippery slope of 'every
>>>> man/woman/child for themselves'. Praise HaShem for the voice of the
>>>> Prophets and for the continuance of the straight forward, no holds
>>>> barred teachings of the martyred Rabbi Meir Kahane, and many others 
>>>> like
>>>> him.
>>>>  Praise HaShem for the voice of The Synagogue Without Walls and its
>>>> ability to reach all the way around our world and assist with the
>>>> in-gathering of the Whole House Of Israel, and for its ability for us 
>>>> to
>>>> communicate and lift each other up and spread the teachings of people
>>>> such as the late Rabbi.
>>>>  As Joe will attest, I have been saying for a long time, that I believe
>>>> the Torah to be a straight forward and simple message for how we, the
>>>> Created, should live with each other and in relation to our Creator. I
>>>> favour simplicity Pat. I find the more complicated the teachings of
>>>> Torah become, the less interested I become in it.
>>>>  Again - praise to HaShem for Rabbi Meir Kahane's straight forward
>>>> style. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the deeper meanings of
>>>> Torah and it's greater purpose for the rectification of our world and
>>>> the universe. However, if we all lived by the simple and pure ways of
>>>> Torah, then the greater purpose would be accomplished - wouldn't it?
>>>>  I'm glad you appreciate this article Pat - I hope others can also see
>>>> the truth of it.
>>>>  Brachot v'Shalom
>>>>  Jessica
>>>>
>>>>  Pat Robbins wrote:
>>>>    This will shake you up!!!!  I applaud you, Jessica, for challenging
>>>> us with Rabbi Meir Kahane's no-holds-barred teaching.  We have been
>>>> conditioned to live in the gray areas, no longer recognizing the
>>>> boundaries of black and white, right and wrong.  We have blurred the
>>>> words of our Prophets until they've become politically correct enough 
>>>> to
>>>> suit our behavior.  We have defaced the Holy Torah with our better, 
>>>> more
>>>> "enlightened" and visionary dreams of a utopian society where hugs
>>>> replace justice, and coldblooded murderers are released to kill again
>>>> and again.
>>>>
>>>>    We need to study very carefully all that the Torah, Prophets and
>>>> Writings teach us, then act accordingly.
>>>>
>>>>    I am not brave and unyielding to sin like Rabbi Kahane was.  I have
>>>> comfortably settled into a monochromatic palette of gray...........but 
>>>> I
>>>> want to change.  I want to follow HaShem at all costs.  I want to be so
>>>> much better than I am.  Thank you for encouraging us, Jessica, with the
>>>> teachings of this man who challenges one and all to follow G-d.
>>>>
>>>>    Pat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    From: Vegemite Rose
>>>>    Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:15 AM
>>>>    To: Roots Of Faith Dialogue List
>>>>    Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Shalom to All,
>>>>    I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown 
>>>> away
>>>> by his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be forgotten and 
>>>> may
>>>> his teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land, the Torah, the 
>>>> Covenant
>>>> and the Holy People.
>>>>    Blessings from Jessica
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Down With Hanukah
>>>>    By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l
>>>>
>>>>    If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment
>>>> whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the
>>>> leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members of
>>>> the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened
>>>> sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the barricades
>>>> and join in battle against that most dangerous of all Jewish holidays -
>>>> Hanukah.
>>>>
>>>>    It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community
>>>> that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the
>>>> "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual
>>>> dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along with
>>>> the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that stands for everything 
>>>> that
>>>> the masses of world Jewry and their leadership has rejected - it is 
>>>> this
>>>> one. If one would find an event that is truly rooted in everything that
>>>> Jews of our times and their leaders have rejected and, indeed,
>>>> attacked - it is this one. If there is any holiday that is more
>>>> "un-Jewish" in the sense of our modern beliefs and practices - I do not
>>>> know of it.
>>>>
>>>>    The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its
>>>> childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the
>>>> Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish
>>>> parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract Christmas;
>>>> that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our-
>>>> goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children with
>>>> eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that the
>>>> Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so that
>>>> the beaming parents might think that the Religious School is really
>>>> successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it really is; the
>>>> Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me- 
>>>> liberty-or-death
>>>> and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal saviors who fought so
>>>> that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to preach their Marx and
>>>> eat their ham, that the split-level dwellers of suburbia might be
>>>> allowed to violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom and the Reform and
>>>> Conservative Temples continue to fight for civil rights for Blacks,
>>>> Puerto Ricans and Jane Fonda, is not remotely connected with reality.
>>>>
>>>>    This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews
>>>> of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is
>>>> surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. Truly,
>>>> could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see what Hanukah
>>>> has become, they might very well begin a second Maccabean revolt. For
>>>> the life that we Jews lead today was the very cause, the real reason,
>>>> for the revolt of the Jews "in those days in our times."
>>>>
>>>>    What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a
>>>> handful of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And precisely
>>>> who was the enemy? What were they fighting for and who were they
>>>> fighting against?
>>>>
>>>>    For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True
>>>> independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, 
>>>> yet,
>>>> the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek policy
>>>> shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to suppress
>>>> the Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its bloodiness. It
>>>> was not mere liberty that led to the Maccabean uprising that we so
>>>> passionately applaud. What we are really cheering is a brave group of
>>>> Jews who fought and plunged Judea into a bloodbath for the right to
>>>> observe the Sabbath, to follow the laws of kashrut, to obey the laws of
>>>> the Torah. In a world where everything about Hanukah that we
>>>> commemorate, and teach our children to commemorate, are things we
>>>> consider to be outmoded, medieval and childish!
>>>>
>>>>    At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and
>>>> obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have
>>>> done what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are
>>>> not really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not 
>>>> the
>>>> Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative 
>>>> movements
>>>> write this daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that which we
>>>> violate every day of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges as a
>>>> needless holiday if not a foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven
>>>> children; poor Mattathias and Judah; poor well meaning chaps all - but
>>>> hopelessly backward and utterly unnecessary sacrifices.
>>>>
>>>>    But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and
>>>> unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and
>>>> illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at the
>>>> hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children portray 
>>>> so
>>>> cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants, was not a 
>>>> Greek.
>>>> He was a Jew.
>>>>
>>>>    When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and
>>>> demand its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom of
>>>> pagan worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After all,
>>>> what business was it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And it was
>>>> this Jew, this apostate, this religious traitor who was struck down by
>>>> the brave, glorious, courageous, (are these not the words all our 
>>>> Sunday
>>>> schools use to describe him) Mattathias, as he shouted: "Whoever is for
>>>> G-d, follow me!"
>>>>
>>>>    What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry?
>>>> What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair,
>>>> the graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, the
>>>> liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us unto
>>>> death with the concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded,
>>>> undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to honor?
>>>> What kind of nationalism is this for Shimon Peres (he who rejects the
>>>> 'Galut' and speaks of the proud, free Jew of ancient Judea and Israel)?
>>>>
>>>>    And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of
>>>> peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who 
>>>> reacted
>>>> to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have deplored 
>>>> Jewish
>>>> violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- Jewish, stand in
>>>> horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket the Syrian Greeks
>>>> to death and who rejected quiet diplomacy for the sword, spear and 
>>>> arrow
>>>> (had there been bombs in those days, who can tell what they might have
>>>> done?) and "descended to the level of 'evil'" thus rejecting the 
>>>> ethical
>>>> and moral concepts of Judaism.
>>>>
>>>>    Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the
>>>> kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is 
>>>> this
>>>> the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our 
>>>> children?
>>>> Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in the 
>>>> wilderness
>>>> to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it represents - the
>>>> Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?
>>>>
>>>>    Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the
>>>> Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of bigotry
>>>> that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the Judaism of
>>>> violence that calls for Jewish force and might against the enemy? When
>>>> shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese food and violate
>>>> our Sabbaths and reject all the separateness, nationalism and religious
>>>> maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly represents? Down with Hanukah! It is
>>>> a regressive holiday that merely symbolizes the Judaism that always 
>>>> was;
>>>> the Judaism that was handed down to us from Sinai; the Judaism that 
>>>> made
>>>> our ancestors ready to give their lives for the L-rd; the Judaism that
>>>> young people instinctively know is true and great and real. Such a
>>>> Judaism is dangerous for us and our leaders. We must do all in our 
>>>> power
>>>> to bury it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:22:56 +1030
>>>> From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
>>>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>>> Message-ID: <493DEB98.5070800 at y7mail.com>
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>>>>
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>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
>>>> ***************************************
>>>>
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>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 22
>>> ***************************************
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 23
> ***************************************
> 


From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Dec  9 15:42:06 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:42:06 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah]
Message-ID: <493EE62E.9050804@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 16:11:27 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:11:27 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Thinking of my teacher, and his message
Message-ID: <855590370812091411q2a24e2bx4ab9c73e9dd89f54@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom L'Kulchem (to everyone),

     A number of people have written me asking for some actual *details *of
some of my recent experiences in Israel.  You know, kind of a 'report' of my
impressions, people that I met, etc.  I am going to try they, albeit
somewhat selectively, since I'm bored many of you previously with long
stories of mine.  But I wanted to share a very emotional series of
experiences that happened the first Sunday that I was in Israel (November
16; the 18th of Cheshvan).

    That morning, I went with my friend Gershon Green, who has been my
friend for over 30 years, to the Mikvah ("ritual bath") in the Old City of
Jerusalem.  We then ascended the Har HaBayit, the Temple Mount, walking in
the permitted area (Herod had greatly expanded the mount, enabling you to
now be able to walk around it, without stepping on one of the truly 'sacred'
parts where the actual Temple stood.  Of course, as is the policy for Jews
on the Temple Mount, we were accompanied by a policeman (who, along with the
other 3 cops we ran into were Arabs...) who was there to arrest us if our
mouths moved as if in prayer, and the representative of the Wakf - the
Muslims in whom the Israeli Hellenist government entrusts the holiest site
in Judaism.

   Even with the 'survaliance' we were able to get in short prayers quickly,
and I prayed especially for the health of two friends whom I had promised to
remember on the Temple Mount itself.  To be SO CLOSE to the actual spot
where the Temple stood (and will stand again..), is an agonizing experience
- to long for it so, and to then see the alien structure the various
conquerors of Jerusalem (Christian & Muslim)  had set up over the site of
the Holy Temple.  To leave it in the hands of the unclean hordes is an
abomination that caused me to shake with anger and revulsion.

   But the emotional moments of the day were not yet over...that night
marked the 18th -'anniversary' (Yartzeit, in Yiddish), or memorial for my
slain mentor and teacher, Rav Meir Kahane, H"YD (May G-d Avenge his blood).
It was exactly 18 years before, when he was murdered in New York City, in
the first act of Islamic terror in the United States (by Al Quaida, BTW..).

   For those of you who never heard the Rav speak, I have a link below to a
anti-Kahane piece, which was done around the time of the 1984 elections in
Israel.  It doesn't do him justice, but it's just a taste for you....
                                                    Click here: YouTube -
Kahane in the Knesset
1984<http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=rB8m7CQSIIk&feature=related>

   The next week I was able to deliver to his widow (who is writing his
ideological biography) numerous MP3's from tapes that John Carlson
graciously digitized, from tapes of  lectures the Rav gave in 1976, to our
leadership training program.  Lectures that were never transcribed, and that
there were no other copies of...I only wish she could access the resources
to publish everything the Rav ever taught...

   B"Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love the Homeland),
                  *Hanoch*
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From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Tue Dec  9 19:20:22 2008
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:50:22 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
In-Reply-To: <493EE62E.9050804@westnet.com.au>
References: <493EE62E.9050804@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <493F1956.4050701@y7mail.com>

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 23:01:39 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:01:39 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] American Jewish Indifference
Message-ID: <855590370812092101s2fee8f05h66bfef6def8ee282@mail.gmail.com>

*American Jewish Indifference*

Caroline B. Glick - Dec 09, 2008
The Jewish Press


Apparently Israel is no longer a voting issue for most American Jews.

Seventy-eight percent of American Jewish voters cast their ballots for
Senator Barack Obama on November 4. Obama, who boasted the most liberal
voting record in the Senate, has never distinguished himself as a firm
supporter of Israel and opposed the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment that called on
the State Department to place Iran's Revolutionary Guards on its list of
international terrorist organizations.

Obama counts no deeply committed Zionists among his close associates. Men
and women like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Samantha Power, Zbigniew Brzezinski,
William Ayers, Robert Malley and Rashid Khalidi were all people Obama turned
to for advice, guidance and support in his early years in politics and as a
U.S. senator considering a run for the White House.

His "pro-Israel" advisers -- mainly late pick-ups as the presidential race
progressed -- included no ardent Zionists to oppose the voices of his
anti-Israel advisors. Instead, Obama turned to Dennis Ross and Daniel
Kurtzer to advise him on the Middle East. These men, like his designated
White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, have views of Israel that are
indistinguishable from the positions of Israel's post-Zionist Meretz party.

During the course of the campaign, Obama gained notoriety for his hard left
promises to appease U.S. foes like Iran, largely at the expense of U.S.
allies like Israel. It could have been presumed that his expressed
willingness to meet with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would have
raised red flags throughout the American Jewish community.

After all, given the failure of the now five-year-old European-U.S. attempt
to appease Iran into ending its nuclear weapons program, it is apparent that
a direct U.S. presidential dialogue with Ahmadinejad will be perceived by
Iran as a green light to complete its nuclear weapons program.

But American Jewish voters were only too happy to believe Obama's
unconvincing attenuations of his pledge to hold talks with Ahmadinejad
without preconditions. American Jews were also eager to accept his
unconvincing disavowals of his association with the likes of Wright, Power,
Khalidi, Malley and Brzezinski.

Obama is now signaling his support for the so-called Saudi Peace Plan, first
released in 2002, which calls for Israel to essentially destroy itself in
exchange for its Arab neighbors establishing "normal" relations with it.

The Saudi plan calls for Israel to remove itself completely to the
indefensible 1949 armistice lines and accept millions of foreign-born,
hostile Arabs as full citizens as part of the so-called right of return of
the descendants of Arabs who left Israel in 1948.

The fact that the Saudi initiative -- even if Israel were to commit national
suicide by taking such steps -- limits the relations the Arabs would have
with the rump bi-national state to "normal" rather than "peaceful" shows
clearly that far from being a peace plan, it is a blueprint for Israel's
destruction.

In light of all of this, it is apparent that by voting for Obama,
four-fifths of American Jews voted for a candidate more openly hostile to
the U.S.-Israel alliance than any other major-party presidential candidate
in the past generation.

One might argue that American Jews were simply unaware of Obama's actual
views on Israel. It is true, after all, that the U.S. media worked overtime
throughout the campaign defending and hiding Obama's longstanding
connections to haters of the U.S.

But despite the media effort to conceal or explain away difficult truths
about Obama's character, concerned American Jewish voters had access to the
facts. Any number of alternative media outlets provided a steady stream of
information about Obama's associations with Israel bashers.

More than anything else, the willingness of American Jews to believe Obama
is pro-Israel shows they simply didn't care that much. If they had cared,
they would have scrutinized Obama's alarming connections at least as
carefully as they attacked Alaska Governor Sarah Palin for her anti-abortion
views. They would have wondered what it means that Obama spent twenty years
of his life in the pews of a deeply anti-Semitic church at least as much as
they wondered about a Jews for Jesus preacher who once spoke at Palin's
church.

There are several possible and complementary explanations for American
Jewry's apparent indifference to Israel's fate.

High assimilation rates cause many American Jews to feel more attachment to
non-Jewish causes than to Jewish causes. At the same time, the watering-down
of Jewish teachings in various Jewish communities and the replacement of
Jewish law and traditions with amorphous and trendy concepts of "social
justice" and multiculturalism have engendered a basic ignorance of the
exceptional significance and beauty of Judaism among a large portion of
American Jews.

Then there is the leadership crisis affecting world Jewry. Weak and
uninspiring Israeli leaders and weak and uninspiring American Jewish leaders
have failed to assert and explain the connection between Israel's security
and the wellbeing of the American Jewish community.

Whereas until the 1980s it went without saying for most American Jews that
their fortunes were directly tied to Israel's security, today the unity of
Jewish fate has been lost on ever widening circles of American Jews.

To all of this must be added the unique self-perception of American Jewry.
The American Jewish community is the only community in Jewish history that
refused to view itself as an exile community. Even before the American
Revolution, Jewish settlers in the New World viewed America as a permanent
home.

As a consequence, on a philosophical level American Jews have always held
Israel and Zionism at arm's length. They could support Israel as a refuge
for persecuted Jews from other countries, but they couldn't support Israel
as the permanent and irreplaceable homeland for all Jews without revoking
the foundational belief of their American Jewish identity.

Today Israel is threatened with annihilation and the U.S. Jewish community
is suffering from more blatant and organized anti-Semitic attacks than it
has seen in the past fifty years. But during this year's presidential
campaign, the basic truth that the security of all Jews is dependent on the
security of Israel was no match for the full consequences of failed
leadership, assimilation and the basic American Jewish desire to reject the
singularity of Jewish destiny.

Israel's next government will be called on to defend Israel against Iran and
its Palestinian, Syrian and Lebanese proxies, And it will be called to act
at a time when the U.S. is led by an Obama administration pledged to appease
these forces. Israel will have to rally all of its supporters in the U.S. to
its side in order to stand up for its survival.

In light of the American Jewish vote, it is an open question whether Israel
will receive the help of its American Jewish brethren in its hour of need.

*Caroline Glick is deputy managing editor of The Jerusalem Post. Her Jewish
Press-exclusive column appears the last week of each month.*





3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I
Fax: 913.648.7997
This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 23:08:20 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:08:20 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] How to thank Israel's soldiers this Channukah
Message-ID: <855590370812092108i52bfa8a0uc854dc61cb9a0769@mail.gmail.com>

Here's an easy way to give personal thanks to the brave IDF soldiers
who protect and defend Israel.

Go to www.thankisraelisoldiers.com and in 1 minute, you can send a care
package and thank you note to a soldier. There are some great videos on
the site also.


We asked them what they wanted and needed and put those items in the
care packages.

3 young IDF reserve officers started this campaign to give support to
the soldiers, who are the first line of
defense.

Please forward this message and let's see if we can give thanks to
8000 IDF soldiers this Chanukah, 1000 each night!
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 07:28:39 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 05:28:39 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Article: "Where's Moshiach?"
Message-ID: <855590370812100528k4931c804y7e42edc0aea0d0a6@mail.gmail.com>

 *Where's Moshiach?
*
   Rabbi Lazer Brody's newest article:

Wednesday, 10 December 2008 Where's
Moshiach?<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/12/wheres-moshiach.html>
  If we look at the Gemara's preconditions for Moshiach and arrange them in
a checklist, we can mark them with a "x" one by one, for they've all
materialized here in Israel. Here's what the Gemara in tractate Sota 49b
requires:
[x] Insolence (chutzpa) reaches new heights
[x] Prices are sky-high
[x] The regime will be made up of heretics
[x] Erosion of morals and no one protests
[x] The Galilee will be destroyed (2 years ago, under the massive Hizbolla
missile barrage)
[x] The border settlers will become transient (3 years ago, with the
Disengagement)
[x] The wisdom of Torah scholars will be disdained (see the anti-Torah venom
almost daily in Israeli media)
[x] Truth will be missing
[x] People will disdain the observant G-d fearing Jews
[x] The young will disparage the old.
[x] The generation's leaders are like the face of a dog.
All the conditions are here and fulfilled, so where's Moshiach?
Hashem promised (see Samuel II, 14:14) that no one will be left behind. In
other words, Moshiach is being delayed until every single person comes home
to Hashem. You know what that means? The coming of Moshiach depends on
spreading emuna in the world.
The Melitzer Rebbe told me this morning that everyone will ultimately make
Teshuva; some will do it willingly, others with a little prodding, and the
stubborn folks will have their arm twist ed, and not exactly in a gentle
manner (for their own good). But, Hashem won't leave anyone behind - that's
His promise.
 If you want Moshiach, then lend a helping hand in spreading emuna in the
world.
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Dec 10 10:21:36 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:21:36 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] American Jewish Indifference
In-Reply-To: <855590370812092101s2fee8f05h66bfef6def8ee282@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812092101s2fee8f05h66bfef6def8ee282@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <041501c95ae3$6196ab30$24c40190$@com>

Hi Hanoch,

 

Thanks for this. I think that the fact that Obama attended Wright's church
for not two..but TWENTY years... says a lot. I can't stomach twenty SECONDS
of this guy.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:02 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] American Jewish Indifference

 

American Jewish Indifference 

Caroline B. Glick - Dec 09, 2008 
The Jewish Press 



Apparently Israel is no longer a voting issue for most American Jews.

Seventy-eight percent of American Jewish voters cast their ballots for
Senator Barack Obama on November 4. Obama, who boasted the most liberal
voting record in the Senate, has never distinguished himself as a firm
supporter of Israel and opposed the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment that called on
the State Department to place Iran's Revolutionary Guards on its list of
international terrorist organizations.

Obama counts no deeply committed Zionists among his close associates. Men
and women like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Samantha Power, Zbigniew Brzezinski,
William Ayers, Robert Malley and Rashid Khalidi were all people Obama turned
to for advice, guidance and support in his early years in politics and as a
U.S. senator considering a run for the White House.

His "pro-Israel" advisers -- mainly late pick-ups as the presidential race
progressed -- included no ardent Zionists to oppose the voices of his
anti-Israel advisors. Instead, Obama turned to Dennis Ross and Daniel
Kurtzer to advise him on the Middle East. These men, like his designated
White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, have views of Israel that are
indistinguishable from the positions of Israel's post-Zionist Meretz party.

During the course of the campaign, Obama gained notoriety for his hard left
promises to appease U.S. foes like Iran, largely at the expense of U.S.
allies like Israel. It could have been presumed that his expressed
willingness to meet with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would have 
raised red flags throughout the American Jewish community.

After all, given the failure of the now five-year-old European-U.S. attempt
to appease Iran into ending its nuclear weapons program, it is apparent that
a direct U.S. presidential dialogue with Ahmadinejad will be perceived by
Iran as a green light to complete its nuclear weapons program.

But American Jewish voters were only too happy to believe Obama's
unconvincing attenuations of his pledge to hold talks with Ahmadinejad
without preconditions. American Jews were also eager to accept his
unconvincing disavowals of his association with the likes of Wright, Power,
Khalidi, Malley and Brzezinski.

Obama is now signaling his support for the so-called Saudi Peace Plan, first
released in 2002, which calls for Israel to essentially destroy itself in
exchange for its Arab neighbors establishing "normal" relations with it.

The Saudi plan calls for Israel to remove itself completely to the
indefensible 1949 armistice lines and accept millions of foreign-born,
hostile Arabs as full citizens as part of the so-called right of return of
the descendants of Arabs who left Israel in 1948.

The fact that the Saudi initiative -- even if Israel were to commit national
suicide by taking such steps -- limits the relations the Arabs would have
with the rump bi-national state to "normal" rather than "peaceful" shows
clearly that far from being a peace plan, it is a blueprint for Israel's
destruction.

In light of all of this, it is apparent that by voting for Obama,
four-fifths of American Jews voted for a candidate more openly hostile to
the U.S.-Israel alliance than any other major-party presidential candidate
in the past generation.

One might argue that American Jews were simply unaware of Obama's actual
views on Israel. It is true, after all, that the U.S. media worked overtime
throughout the campaign defending and hiding Obama's longstanding
connections to haters of the U.S.

But despite the media effort to conceal or explain away difficult truths
about Obama's character, concerned American Jewish voters had access to the
facts. Any number of alternative media outlets provided a steady stream of
information about Obama's associations with Israel bashers.

More than anything else, the willingness of American Jews to believe Obama
is pro-Israel shows they simply didn't care that much. If they had cared,
they would have scrutinized Obama's alarming connections at least as
carefully as they attacked Alaska Governor Sarah Palin for her anti-abortion
views. They would have wondered what it means that Obama spent twenty years
of his life in the pews of a deeply anti-Semitic church at least as much as
they wondered about a Jews for Jesus preacher who once spoke at Palin's
church.

There are several possible and complementary explanations for American
Jewry's apparent indifference to Israel's fate.

High assimilation rates cause many American Jews to feel more attachment to
non-Jewish causes than to Jewish causes. At the same time, the watering-down
of Jewish teachings in various Jewish communities and the replacement of
Jewish law and traditions with amorphous and trendy concepts of "social
justice" and multiculturalism have engendered a basic ignorance of the
exceptional significance and beauty of Judaism among a large portion of 
American Jews.

Then there is the leadership crisis affecting world Jewry. Weak and
uninspiring Israeli leaders and weak and uninspiring American Jewish leaders
have failed to assert and explain the connection between Israel's security
and the wellbeing of the American Jewish community.

Whereas until the 1980s it went without saying for most American Jews that
their fortunes were directly tied to Israel's security, today the unity of
Jewish fate has been lost on ever widening circles of American Jews.

To all of this must be added the unique self-perception of American Jewry.
The American Jewish community is the only community in Jewish history that
refused to view itself as an exile community. Even before the American
Revolution, Jewish settlers in the New World viewed America as a permanent
home.

As a consequence, on a philosophical level American Jews have always held
Israel and Zionism at arm's length. They could support Israel as a refuge
for persecuted Jews from other countries, but they couldn't support Israel
as the permanent and irreplaceable homeland for all Jews without revoking
the foundational belief of their American Jewish identity.

Today Israel is threatened with annihilation and the U.S. Jewish community
is suffering from more blatant and organized anti-Semitic attacks than it
has seen in the past fifty years. But during this year's presidential
campaign, the basic truth that the security of all Jews is dependent on the
security of Israel was no match for the full consequences of failed
leadership, assimilation and the basic American Jewish desire to reject the
singularity of Jewish destiny.

Israel's next government will be called on to defend Israel against Iran and
its Palestinian, Syrian and Lebanese proxies, And it will be called to act
at a time when the U.S. is led by an Obama administration pledged to appease
these forces. Israel will have to rally all of its supporters in the U.S. to
its side in order to stand up for its survival.

In light of the American Jewish vote, it is an open question whether Israel
will receive the help of its American Jewish brethren in its hour of need.

Caroline Glick is deputy managing editor of The Jerusalem Post. Her Jewish
Press-exclusive column appears the last week of each month.






3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I
Fax: 913.648.7997
This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is
not standards compliant, download one
<http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/> here.
Website copyright C 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 13:58:23 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:58:23 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] American Jewish Indifference
In-Reply-To: <041501c95ae3$6196ab30$24c40190$@com>
References: <855590370812092101s2fee8f05h66bfef6def8ee282@mail.gmail.com>
	<041501c95ae3$6196ab30$24c40190$@com>
Message-ID: <855590370812101158s2166d442y77859a2dfbac0767@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Patty,

     Where Obama is coming from, well, I think it's pretty well known now -
whether people want to accept it/believe it, or not.  What I'm just as
concerned about though, is that fact that the American Jewish Community (*
communities*, actually) is not united behind Israel.

    A study was done with Jewish men, age 35 and unaffiliated (the majority
of American Jews are unaffiliated, and do not belong to any synagogue,
or Jewish "movement."

    They were asked the following question: "If the State of Israel were
destroyed today, would it have a major impact on your life?"  54% responded,
'NO.'

    America's Jews have become, largely - "Jews for Nothing."  Sure there
are exceptions...but trust me on this, they're uncommitted to anything
'Jewish,' and they're disappearing....

                    *  Hanoch
*
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

>  Hi Hanoch,
>
>
>
> Thanks for this. I think that the fact that Obama attended Wright's church
> for not two?.but TWENTY years?.. says a lot. I can't stomach twenty SECONDS
> of this guy.
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:02 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] American Jewish Indifference
>
>
>
> *American Jewish Indifference*
>
> *Caroline B. Glick - Dec 09, 2008
> The Jewish Press *
>
>
>
> Apparently Israel is no longer a voting issue for most American Jews.
>
> Seventy-eight percent of American Jewish voters cast their ballots for
> Senator Barack Obama on November 4. Obama, who boasted the most liberal
> voting record in the Senate, has never distinguished himself as a firm
> supporter of Israel and opposed the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment that called on
> the State Department to place Iran's Revolutionary Guards on its list of
> international terrorist organizations.
>
> Obama counts no deeply committed Zionists among his close associates. Men
> and women like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Samantha Power, Zbigniew Brzezinski,
> William Ayers, Robert Malley and Rashid Khalidi were all people Obama turned
> to for advice, guidance and support in his early years in politics and as a
> U.S. senator considering a run for the White House.
>
> His "pro-Israel" advisers -- mainly late pick-ups as the presidential race
> progressed -- included no ardent Zionists to oppose the voices of his
> anti-Israel advisors. Instead, Obama turned to Dennis Ross and Daniel
> Kurtzer to advise him on the Middle East. These men, like his designated
> White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, have views of Israel that are
> indistinguishable from the positions of Israel's post-Zionist Meretz party.
>
> During the course of the campaign, Obama gained notoriety for his hard left
> promises to appease U.S. foes like Iran, largely at the expense of U.S.
> allies like Israel. It could have been presumed that his expressed
> willingness to meet with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would have
> raised red flags throughout the American Jewish community.
>
> After all, given the failure of the now five-year-old European-U.S. attempt
> to appease Iran into ending its nuclear weapons program, it is apparent that
> a direct U.S. presidential dialogue with Ahmadinejad will be perceived by
> Iran as a green light to complete its nuclear weapons program.
>
> But American Jewish voters were only too happy to believe Obama's
> unconvincing attenuations of his pledge to hold talks with Ahmadinejad
> without preconditions. American Jews were also eager to accept his
> unconvincing disavowals of his association with the likes of Wright, Power,
> Khalidi, Malley and Brzezinski.
>
> Obama is now signaling his support for the so-called Saudi Peace Plan,
> first released in 2002, which calls for Israel to essentially destroy itself
> in exchange for its Arab neighbors establishing "normal" relations with it.
>
> The Saudi plan calls for Israel to remove itself completely to the
> indefensible 1949 armistice lines and accept millions of foreign-born,
> hostile Arabs as full citizens as part of the so-called right of return of
> the descendants of Arabs who left Israel in 1948.
>
> The fact that the Saudi initiative -- even if Israel were to commit
> national suicide by taking such steps -- limits the relations the Arabs
> would have with the rump bi-national state to "normal" rather than
> "peaceful" shows clearly that far from being a peace plan, it is a blueprint
> for Israel's destruction.
>
> In light of all of this, it is apparent that by voting for Obama,
> four-fifths of American Jews voted for a candidate more openly hostile to
> the U.S.-Israel alliance than any other major-party presidential candidate
> in the past generation.
>
> One might argue that American Jews were simply unaware of Obama's actual
> views on Israel. It is true, after all, that the U.S. media worked overtime
> throughout the campaign defending and hiding Obama's longstanding
> connections to haters of the U.S.
>
> But despite the media effort to conceal or explain away difficult truths
> about Obama's character, concerned American Jewish voters had access to the
> facts. Any number of alternative media outlets provided a steady stream of
> information about Obama's associations with Israel bashers.
>
> More than anything else, the willingness of American Jews to believe Obama
> is pro-Israel shows they simply didn't care that much. If they had cared,
> they would have scrutinized Obama's alarming connections at least as
> carefully as they attacked Alaska Governor Sarah Palin for her anti-abortion
> views. They would have wondered what it means that Obama spent twenty years
> of his life in the pews of a deeply anti-Semitic church at least as much as
> they wondered about a Jews for Jesus preacher who once spoke at Palin's
> church.
>
> There are several possible and complementary explanations for American
> Jewry's apparent indifference to Israel's fate.
>
> High assimilation rates cause many American Jews to feel more attachment to
> non-Jewish causes than to Jewish causes. At the same time, the watering-down
> of Jewish teachings in various Jewish communities and the replacement of
> Jewish law and traditions with amorphous and trendy concepts of "social
> justice" and multiculturalism have engendered a basic ignorance of the
> exceptional significance and beauty of Judaism among a large portion of
> American Jews.
>
> Then there is the leadership crisis affecting world Jewry. Weak and
> uninspiring Israeli leaders and weak and uninspiring American Jewish leaders
> have failed to assert and explain the connection between Israel's security
> and the wellbeing of the American Jewish community.
>
> Whereas until the 1980s it went without saying for most American Jews that
> their fortunes were directly tied to Israel's security, today the unity of
> Jewish fate has been lost on ever widening circles of American Jews.
>
> To all of this must be added the unique self-perception of American Jewry.
> The American Jewish community is the only community in Jewish history that
> refused to view itself as an exile community. Even before the American
> Revolution, Jewish settlers in the New World viewed America as a permanent
> home.
>
> As a consequence, on a philosophical level American Jews have always held
> Israel and Zionism at arm's length. They could support Israel as a refuge
> for persecuted Jews from other countries, but they couldn't support Israel
> as the permanent and irreplaceable homeland for all Jews without revoking
> the foundational belief of their American Jewish identity.
>
> Today Israel is threatened with annihilation and the U.S. Jewish community
> is suffering from more blatant and organized anti-Semitic attacks than it
> has seen in the past fifty years. But during this year's presidential
> campaign, the basic truth that the security of all Jews is dependent on the
> security of Israel was no match for the full consequences of failed
> leadership, assimilation and the basic American Jewish desire to reject the
> singularity of Jewish destiny.
>
> Israel's next government will be called on to defend Israel against Iran
> and its Palestinian, Syrian and Lebanese proxies, And it will be called to
> act at a time when the U.S. is led by an Obama administration pledged to
> appease these forces. Israel will have to rally all of its supporters in the
> U.S. to its side in order to stand up for its survival.
>
> In light of the American Jewish vote, it is an open question whether Israel
> will receive the help of its American Jewish brethren in its hour of need.
>
> *Caroline Glick is deputy managing editor of The Jerusalem Post. Her
> Jewish Press-exclusive column appears the last week of each month.*
>
>
>
>
> 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I
> Fax: 913.648.7997
> This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is
> not standards compliant, download one here<http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/>
> .
> Website copyright (c) 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 14:28:34 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:28:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Some Chanukah Resources
Message-ID: <855590370812101228u1ef01dc7if050143834c8df47@mail.gmail.com>

Chanukah resources -
                * Hanoch*
**
Chanukah, the Jewish Festival of Lights, is observed for
eight days, beginning on the evening of the 25th day of
the Hebrew month of Kislev. This year Chanukah starts
at sundown, Sunday, December 21, 2008.
Chanukah is a wonderful holiday of renewed dedication,
faith, hope and spiritual light. It's a holiday that says:
"Never lose hope." Chanukah commemorates the victory of a
small band of Maccabees over the pagan Syrian-Greeks who
ruled over Israel.

The J Site - Jewish Education and Entertainment
http://www.j.co.il

has several entertaining features to celebrate Chanukah:

Jewish Trivia Quiz: Chanukah

What does the Hebrew word Chanukah mean ?
What type of foods do we specificaly eat on Chanukah ?
What activities are forbidden during Chanukah ?
Are woman obligated to light the menorah ?
How many candles do we need for all of Chanukah ?
Which family was Judah the Maccabee from ?
How many branches did the menorah in the temple have ?

The above questions are examples from the multiple choice
Flash quiz. There are two levels of questions, two timer settings.
Both kids and adults will find it enjoyable.

Additional Chanukah resources and games on the J site include:
Free Chanukah Clipart
The Multilingual Word Search Game (English / Hebrew / Russian)
The Hebrew Hangman Game
My Hebrew Songbook (Hebrew Song Lyrics)
My Jewish Coloring Book (online / offline)

The J site has something for everyone, but if that is not
enough, I posted on my website 127 links about Chanukah,
from laws and customs to games and recipes.
Site languages include English, Hebrew, Russian, Spanish,
French, Portuguese, German and Italian.

All 127 links have been reviewed / checked this week.
The web address is:
http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-hdaych.htm

Please forward this message to relatives and friends,
so they may benefit from these holiday resources.
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 14:45:21 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:45:21 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A feel good story, for a change
Message-ID: <855590370812101245r1ddaa7b6q816e5e59acef72fe@mail.gmail.com>

'Disco Rabbi' Composes Song Thanking G-d for Saving Little Moshe
by Gil Ronen

 (IsraelNN.com) The famous Rabbi Yitzchak David Grossman of Migdal Ha'Emek,
known as the Disco Rabbi, composed a catchy new niggun thanking G-d for
saving the Holtzbergs' son and others.

Rabbi Yitzchak David Grossman of Migdal Ha'Emek composed a new niggun, or
melody, giving thanks to G-d for sparing Rabbi Gavriel and Rivka Holtzberg's
son Moishe and other people who were present when terrorists struck Mumbai's
Chabad House.

The story, along with a video of the rabbi teaching the catchy niggun (a
Torah verse put to melody) for the first time, was
posted<http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2008/12/rabbi-grossman-sings-thanks-for.html>in
the
* Life in Israel* blog.

The words to the niggun are a verse from the 18th blessing of the 'Amidah'
Silent Prayer which is recited by observant Jews three times every day. It
reads "HaTov Ki Lo Chalu Rachamecha VeHaMerachem Ki Lo Tamu Chasadecha, Ki
Me'Olam Kivinu Lach" ("The Good, because Your mercy has not ended, and the
Merciful One because your kindness is not over, for we have always hoped for
You."

Before Rabbi Grossman began singing the niggun he explained the idea behind
it. When one says a blessing one does not make G?d greater than He was, he
explained. "So what is the purpose of a blessing?", he asked. "The purpose
of a blessing is to give thanks? The basis on which the Nation of
Israel gives thanks is not just to rejoice with yourself if you experienced
a miracle, but also to be happy when a miracle occurs to your friend, as if
it happened to you," the Rabbi explained.

Little Moishe and his Indian nanny were both staying at the Rabbi's home at
the time that he spoke.

Rabbi Grossman is known as the Disco Rabbi but not because of his dancing
habits. Rather, he is famous for entering Migdal Ha'Emek's discotheques on
Friday nights, sitting at the bar and drinking water. As a result of this
activity, which shamed the local youth into finding alternative means of
entertainment on Fridays, the discos eventually stopped opening their doors
on the Sabbath.
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 15:45:33 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:45:33 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
Message-ID: <855590370812101345v62b5976ey24e0487035d593b0@mail.gmail.com>

Rav Kook was the first Chief Rabbi of the Land of Israel in the 20th
Century, while Israel was still under British military occupation (the
"Mandate"). His insights are always amazing, but see what he has to say
about this Torah reading.  And make sure to view it through the prism of the
Jewish/Ephramite interaction; past, present and future...

        B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                 *     Hanoch*

     *VaYishlach: "I Have an Ox and a Donkey"*

Upon his return to *Eretz* *Yisrael*, Jacob sent a message to his brother
Esau: "*I have an ox and a donkey ..*" Why was it so important for Jacob to
tell Esau about this ox and donkey?

According to the Midrash [Tanchuma VaYishlach, Breishit Rabbah 75], Jacob
was not speaking about material possessions he had amassed, but something
far greater. The ox refers to *Mashiach* *ben-Yosef*, the precursive
messianic leader descended from Joseph. Both Jacob and Moses used the
metaphor of an ox when blessing Joseph [Gen. 49:6; Deut. 33:17].

And the donkey? That is a reference to *Mashiach* *ben-David*, the ultimate
messianic king descended from David, who will arrive as "*a pauper riding on
a donkey*" [Zachariah 9:9].

Why do we need two messianic leaders? And why are they represented
specifically by these two animals?

*Two Forces*

In a remarkable article entitled 'The Eulogy in Jerusalem,' written after
Theodore Herzl's death in 1904, Rav Kook explained this concept of two
messiahs. The article beautifully articulates his views on the secular
Zionist movement and the tragic rift between the religious and secular
sectors of the Jewish people.

God created us with both body and soul. We have forces that maintain and
strengthen the body, and forces that protect and develop the soul. The ideal
is to have a strong body as well as a strong and healthy soul. The soul with
its tremendous powers is meant to utilize the physical powers to fulfill
God's will in this world.

The Jewish people functions in an analogous fashion. There are forces within
the nation that correspond to the body, working to meet its material and
physical needs. These forces prepare a solid basis for Israel's divine
mission. And there are forces that work directly towards developing Israel's
special spiritual gifts. Efforts to boost national security and wealth are
common to all nations, just as we have a body and physical functions like
the animals. But the second aspect, furthering spiritual aspirations on the
national level, is unique to the Jewish people - "*It is a nation dwelling
alone, not counted among the other nations*" [Num. 23:9].

*Joseph and Judah*

These two tasks were divided among two tribes, Joseph and Judah. Joseph took
care of the physical needs of the people in Egypt. The Sages wrote that
Joseph spoke seventy languages, indicating that his task was a universal
one, common to all nations. He protected the Jewish people in Egypt, and is
described as 'the opposing force to Esau' [Breishit Rabbah], defending
Israel against those nations who attack the Jewish people.

Judah, on the other hand, was responsible for cultivating the special
holiness of the Jewish people - "*Judah became His holy nation*" [Ps. 114:2].
Ultimately, both of these aspects were to be combined in the Davidic
monarchy. David was a warrior who fought the enemies of Israel and brought
peace to the nation. But he was also the 'sweet singer of Israel,' the
author of Psalms who would rise at midnight to sing God's praises.

*The Split*

When Jeroboam led the northern tribes of Joseph to split from the southern
kingdom of Judah, this created a tragic divide between the two forces, the
nationalistic and the spiritual. The Midrash says that God grabbed Jeroboam
by the coat and told him, "*If you repent, I and you and the son of Yishai
will walk together in the Garden of Eden.*" Together, you and the Davidic
monarch will nurture the Jewish people and enable it to accomplish its
divine mission.

Jeroboam's reply, however, was, "*Who will lead?*" God answered, "*The son
of Yishai will lead.*" Jeroboam refused to recognize the preeminence of the
nation's spiritual mission. Throughout history we witness the ongoing
conflict between these two forces: secular movements that work towards
improving the nation's material lot, and religious one that promote its
spiritual nature exclusively.

The redemption of the Jewish people is attained as both of these forces are
awakened. Those who work towards strengthening the spiritual aspects of the
nation are preparing for *Mashiach* *ben-David*, which stresses the ultimate
goal of the nation. This spiritual goal, however, cannot be attained without
the necessary material foundations. All attempts to better the material
conditions of the nation are fulfilling the mission of *Mashiach* *ben-Yosef
*.

*The Fall of Mashiach ben-Yosef*

The Talmud in Sukkah 52a teaches that *Mashiach* *ben-Yosef* will be killed,
and that a 'great eulogy in Jerusalem' (Zechariah 12:13) will be said over
his death. What is the significance of this piercing eulogy, when the nation
will mourn the loss of *Mashiach* *ben-Yosef* 'as one mourns for an only
child'?

Due to the rift within the Jewish people, these two forces clash. Those who
promote the material aspect belittle the importance of Torah and *mitzvot*.
And those who stress the special nature of Israel reject all changes and
attempts to better its material standing. This leads to religious rebellion
on one side, and anemic stagnation on the other.

With the fall of *Mashiach* *ben-Yosef*, all will realize that these are not
opposing movements, but forces that should work together, so that material
benefits will form a basis for developing the unique character of the
nation. This is the significance of the "great eulogy in Jerusalem." All
sectors of the nation will mourn this loss, all will recognize the tragic
mistake when these forces are divided and estranged.

*The Ox and the Donkey*

What about Jacob's message to Esau? Why did he hint at the two messianic
leaders with these two animals, the ox and the donkey?

The ox is used to plow the ground, preparing the area to be planted. This
corresponds to the mission of *Mashiach* *ben-Yosef*, waging war against
enemy nations and preparing the way for the revelation of *Mashiach* *
ben-David*. The *Mishkan* established in Shiloh, in the territory of Joseph,
was a preparation for the Temple built in the area of Judah.

The donkey, on the other hand, is used to carry the produce from the field.
This corresponds to the mission of *Mashiach* *ben-David*, who brings the
final fruit of redemption.

*A Hint to Esau*

Jacob's message to his brother, "*I have an ox and a donkey,*"  hinted at
the future messianic era, a time when he will no longer fear Esau's
animosity. We find a second hint later on. After the two brothers meet,
Jacob promises that he will visit Esau in Mount Seir. The Sages wrote:

  "We searched throughout the Torah and never found that Jacob went to Esau
in Mount Seir. Could it be that Jacob was deceiving him? When will he come
to him? This will take place in the future era, as it says, "*Saviors will
ascend Mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau*" [Obadiah 1:21]." [Breishit
Rabbah 78:14]

[Adapted from *Shemuot HaRe'iyah* *VaYishlach* (5691), quoted in *Peninei
HaRe'iyah* pp. 68-72. 'Eulogy in Jerusalem' from *Ma'amarei HaRe'iyah* pp.
94-99]

                Rav Kook on the Net:
RavKookTorah.org<http://www.ravkooktorah.org/>
This week's Dvar Torah: RavKook.co.nr <http://www.ravkook.co.nr/>
This Dvar Torah: VAYISHLACH-69.htm
<http://www.ravkooktorah.org/VAYISHLACH-69.htm>
To subscribe/unsubscribe or comments, write to: Rav Kook
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Wed Dec 10 16:01:22 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:01:22 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update
Message-ID: <121020082201.10243.49403C2F000C2E480000280322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey All,

Attached are the journal entries from our trip for the last two days, it's been busy but wonderful.

Shalom.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 10 16:05:44 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:05:44 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah]
In-Reply-To: <493EE62E.9050804@westnet.com.au>
References: <493EE62E.9050804@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <C9A666CA-9A1B-45D2-9622-79A13B6F013C@earthlink.net>

Dear Joe,

I truly appreciate your insights and perspectives in this regard and I  
will continue to consider them carefully. On the other hand I do not  
think it is necessarily the case that the present will repeat the  
past, as per the parallels you draw here, or that the present/future  
generation of Israel returning to the Land will echo that of the days  
of Moshe and the first Yeshua. I have made a close study of the Hebrew  
Prophets, and although they do not provide any kind of straightjacket  
sort of predictive scenario with no variations and contingencies, I do  
find, running through the last half of Isaiah, much of Jeremiah, not  
to mention Hosea, Haggai, and Zechariah, a fairly consistent pattern  
of predictions. The passages are assembled conveniently on the United  
Israel Web site and those who have not examined this document might  
well find it quite instructive. If one goes through these texts, one  
by one, and marks them in one's Bible, there seems to me to be fairly  
consistent predictive expectation...

http://unitedisrael.org/Biblical_Research_on_the_Lost_Tribes/United-Israel-and-the-Coming-Redemption-Four-Major-Themes.html

I for one to not at all believe anything is too late and I find myself  
thinking of the passage in the Damascus Document of the DSS,  
reflecting the sad and hopeless 1st century BCE period: We wandered  
for 20 years in the wilderness like blind men who had lost their way,  
but YHVH raised up for us a Teacher of Righteousness..." I do indeed  
believe the Go'el will come to Zion and much is ahead, despite the  
failings you point out since 1967,

James

On Dec 9, 2008, at 4:42 PM, Joe Indomenico wrote:

> Shalom Jessica,
>
> my apologies for this late response to your post on Rabbi Meir  
> Kahane of blessed memory.
> Work commitments between now and the annual holiday break are the  
> usual for this time of the year.
>
> First of all I applaud your zeal for the teachings of this great man  
> who as you know died for his beliefs.
> I personally believe that his voice was a prophetic one and his  
> calling was like a great shofar blast.
> Unfortunately his voice was not heeded and the current crisis is a  
> testament to the validity of his statements.
> They are coming back to haunt not only the Jews but all humanity.
>
> Whilst I too am an avid supporter of the late Rabbi ( I posted a  
> tribute for the 18th anniversary of his assassination ), there are a  
> few observations that I would like to make.
>
> His untimely death in 1990 was not only a momentary triumph for his  
> assassins but also for his detractors from within the secular left  
> wing of Israeli politics who sighed with relief at his demise and  
> his final gagging.
> Eli recently stated that most Israelis are secret Kahane supporters  
> (incognito) but do not have the gumption nor the courage to admit it  
> publicly. This leads me to my next observation.
>
> The message of Kahane was like a voice in the wilderness. It came  
> and it went....... unheeded. It is now too late to revert back to  
> his message. His message required action not study and  
> contemplation. Let me explain.
>
> Back in 1967 after the victories of the six day war, Baruch HaShem,  
> may His Holy name be blessed for ever, there was a move within the  
> hierarchy of Israel to trade back the land acquired for peace with  
> the Arabs. Remember the exploits of Prime Minister Eschol and Moshe  
> Dayan and the betrayal of HaShem's word in giving Temple Mount to  
> the Moslem Waqf.
> Oh dear, the sins of the spies revisited.
> RESULT : the Yom Kippur war of 1973.
>
> The disengagement from the Sinai under the Camp David Accord  
> sponsored by President Carter between Begin and Sadat was another  
> attempt to trade land for peace.
> Oh dear, the sins of the spies revisited.
> RESULT : the Lebanon war and the first Intifada of 1987.
>
> Enter Rabbi Meir Kahane. His message was like a final warning from  
> HaShem. The prophetic pleading not dissimilar from the prophets of  
> Tanach. His message was in the vein of Yehoshua ben Nun and Calev  
> ben Zunefa in order to counteract the sin of the ten spies.
> RESULT :  His death , the first Gulf War, the Madrid Accord, the  
> Oslo Peace/War Accord, the Wye River Accord with  
> the                   withdrawal from  
> Chevron,Betlechem,Ramallah,Sh'chen and other areas of Shomron, the  
> Camp David Accord                    offered by Barak and President  
> Clinton and rejected by Arafat, the second Intifada, the attacks on  
> the WTC
>                  ( remember Kahane's assassin was implicated in the  
> first attack on the WTC), the Disengagement from Gush
>                  Katif, Amona, the second Lebanon War of 2006 , Beit  
> Shalom recently in Chevron and finally who nows when
>                  Shomron, Golan, and Yerushalayim.
>
> So the message of Kahane is no longer applicable in so far as that  
> window of opportunity is now closed. His message was rejected. I  
> recommend the whole reading of chapter 14 of the book of Numbers  
> especially:
> ?  ?????????????? ????????,  
> ?????????? ???-?????-????? ??????:   
> ?????????, ?????????? ???-?????????  
> ??????-????? ??????--???? ????????.	40  
> And they rose up early in the morning, and got them up to the top of  
> the mountain, saying: 'Lo, we are here, and will go up unto the  
> place which the LORD hath promised; for we have sinned.'
> ??  ????????? ??????, ?????? ????  
> ?????? ???????? ???-???? ??????;  
> ??????, ??? ???????.	41 And Moses said: 'Wherefore  
> now do ye transgress the commandment of the LORD, seeing it shall  
> not prosper?
> ??  ???-????????, ???? ???? ??????  
> ?????????????; ?????, ???????????,  
> ???????, ??????????.	42 Go not up, for the LORD is  
> not among you; that ye be not smitten down before your enemies.
> ??  ???? ??????????? ??????????????  
> ???? ??????????, ????????????  
> ????????:  ????-???-???? ?????????  
> ????????? ??????, ?????-???????  
> ?????? ????????.	43 For there the Amalekite and the  
> Canaanite are before you, and ye shall fall by the sword; forasmuch  
> as ye are turned back from following the LORD, and the LORD will not  
> be with you.'
> ??  ?????????????, ???????? ???-?????  
> ?????; ???????? ???????-??????  
> ????????, ???-?????? ????????  
> ??????????.	44 But they presumed to go up to the top of the  
> mountain; nevertheless the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and  
> Moses, departed not out of the camp.
> ??  ???????? ???????????  
> ??????????????, ????????? ??????  
> ??????; ?????????? ????????????, ???- 
> ?????????.  {?}     	45 Then the Amalekite and the  
> Canaanite, who dwelt in that hill-country, came down, and smote them  
> and beat them down, even unto Hormah. {P}
>
>  This is what Yisrael has experienced in the last 40 years since the  
> miraculous six day war and more intensely since the rejection of  
> Kahane's warnings.
> So what now?
> Everything is going to script as spelled out in the Tanach.
> Fighting is no longer an option as the battle belongs to HaShem.  
> What is required is TOTAL TESHUVA !!!!!
> Since the Amelek battle of Lebanon 2006 ( Hezbollah has shown the  
> Arab world how to fight Israel )under the careful supervision of the  
> UN peace keeping forces Hezbollah has regrouped and rearmed to the  
> teeth, Hamas has stockpiled armaments in Gaza, the Palestinians are  
> receiving good global press of favour in Shomron, the Syrians are  
> massing on the Golan border and all under the command of Iran.
>
> If Israel attacks Iran unilaterally or with American assistance Iran  
> can and will retaliate with combined attacks from Southern Lebanon,  
> Southern Syria, Gaza and terrorists from the West Bank.
> So Iran does not need nuclear weapons to attack Israel. It already  
> has the requirements to attack Israel. Its nuclear programme is only  
> a smoke screen to entice Israel to attack and for Iran then to take  
> the moral high ground and deflect world opinion against Israel as  
> the aggressor. There is also a very strong possibility according to  
> the Tanach that Damascus will burn. This I believe will be the  
> catalyst that will bring the entire world against Israel.
>
> Rabbi Kahane's message and teachings were extremely valid in his  
> day, but unfortunately sad to say we missed the boat.
> He achieved all that was required of him and may HaShem grant him  
> repose and a place of honour in Olam h'Ba.
>
> What is required now is total emunah ( faith ),bitachon ( trust )  
> and complete surrender in Teshuva to HaShem.
>
> We awaite the arrival of Mashiach in a role similar to Gideon ben  
> Yoash ( rejected by his bretheren and called for in times of  
> national crisis) with his chosen 300 elite ( lest they should say  
> our might gained this victory) carrying shofars and light pitchers  
> and crying out "FOR HASHEM AND FOR GIDON / MASHIACH ".
> Only Mashiach will rectify the sins of the spies that has hounded  
> Israel throughout history during Tisha b'Av.
>
> The battle as in the case of Gideon belongs to HaShem and when men  
> rise up to sound the shofar - prophetic word and break the pitchers  
> to emit the light of Torah then HaShem will go before them in battle  
> ( only two hands - no extra hand to use the sword ) The battle for  
> truth against error is reaching its final climax.
>
> Jessica, this is not to say forget the message of Rabbi Meir Kahane,  
> rather continue to soak it up with all your might because it still  
> contains the antidote against complacency, spiritual apathy and  
> lethargy whilst fostering as you say "zealousness for the land,  
> Torah, the covenant and the Holy People.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> ps: where on earth did you get vegemite Rose from ???
>       I know vegemite, am I missing something.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com>
> Date: December 8, 2008 12:15:39 AM EST
> To: Roots Of Faith Dialogue List <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah
> Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
>
> Shalom to All,
> I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown  
> away by his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be  
> forgotten and may his teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land,  
> the Torah, the Covenant and the Holy People.
> Blessings from Jessica
>
>
>
> Down With Hanukah
> By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l
>
> If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment  
> whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the  
> leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members  
> of the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened  
> sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the  
> barricades and join in battle against that most dangerous of all  
> Jewish holidays - Hanukah.
>
> It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community  
> that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than  
> the "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the  
> intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it  
> plays along with the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that  
> stands for everything that the masses of world Jewry and their  
> leadership has rejected - it is this one. If one would find an event  
> that is truly rooted in everything that Jews of our times and their  
> leaders have rejected and, indeed, attacked - it is this one. If  
> there is any holiday that is more "un-Jewish" in the sense of our  
> modern beliefs and practices - I do not know of it.
>
> The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its  
> childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the  
> Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish  
> parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract  
> Christmas; that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our-  
> goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children  
> with eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that  
> the Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so  
> that the beaming parents might think that the Religious School is  
> really successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it  
> really is; the Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving- 
> me- liberty-or-death and that pictures the Maccabees as great  
> liberal saviors who fought so that the kibbutzim might continue to  
> be free to preach their Marx and eat their ham, that the split-level  
> dwellers of suburbia might be allowed to violate their Sabbath in  
> perfect freedom and the Reform and Conservative Temples continue to  
> fight for civil rights for Blacks, Puerto Ricans and Jane Fonda, is  
> not remotely connected with reality.
>
> This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews  
> of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is  
> surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died.  
> Truly, could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see  
> what Hanukah has become, they might very well begin a second  
> Maccabean revolt. For the life that we Jews lead today was the very  
> cause, the real reason, for the revolt of the Jews "in those days in  
> our times."
>
> What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a  
> handful of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And  
> precisely who was the enemy? What were they fighting for and who  
> were they fighting against?
>
> For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True  
> independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and,  
> yet, the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek  
> policy shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to  
> suppress the Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its  
> bloodiness. It was not mere liberty that led to the Maccabean  
> uprising that we so passionately applaud. What we are really  
> cheering is a brave group of Jews who fought and plunged Judea into  
> a bloodbath for the right to observe the Sabbath, to follow the laws  
> of kashrut, to obey the laws of the Torah. In a world where  
> everything about Hanukah that we commemorate, and teach our children  
> to commemorate, are things we consider to be outmoded, medieval and  
> childish!
>
> At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and  
> obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have  
> done what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah  
> are not really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do  
> not the Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the  
> Conservative movements write this daily?) Surely we would not have  
> fought for that which we violate every day of our lives. No, at best  
> Hanukah emerges as a needless holiday if not a foolish one. Poor  
> Hannah and her seven children; poor Mattathias and Judah; poor well  
> meaning chaps all - but hopelessly backward and utterly unnecessary  
> sacrifices.
>
> But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and  
> unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical  
> and illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell  
> at the hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children  
> portray so cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants,  
> was not a Greek. He was a Jew.
>
> When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and  
> demand its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom  
> of pagan worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus.  
> (After all, what business was it of anyone what this fellow  
> worshiped?) And it was this Jew, this apostate, this religious  
> traitor who was struck down by the brave, glorious, courageous, (are  
> these not the words all our Sunday schools use to describe him)  
> Mattathias, as he shouted: "Whoever is for G-d, follow me!"
>
> What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry?  
> What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer  
> Ha'tzair, the graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated  
> intellectuals, the liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who  
> have wearied us unto death with the concept of Judaism as a  
> humanistic, open-minded, undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not  
> Marxist) religion, to honor? What kind of nationalism is this for  
> Shimon Peres (he who rejects the 'Galut' and speaks of the proud,  
> free Jew of ancient Judea and Israel)?
>
> And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of  
> peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who  
> reacted to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have  
> deplored Jewish violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un-  
> Jewish, stand in horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to  
> picket the Syrian Greeks to death and who rejected quiet diplomacy  
> for the sword, spear and arrow (had there been bombs in those days,  
> who can tell what they might have done?) and "descended to the level  
> of 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical and moral concepts of Judaism.
>
> Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the  
> kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is  
> this the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our  
> children? Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in  
> the wilderness to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it  
> represents - the Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?
>
> Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the  
> Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of  
> bigotry that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the  
> Judaism of violence that calls for Jewish force and might against  
> the enemy? When shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese  
> food and violate our Sabbaths and reject all the separateness,  
> nationalism and religious maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly  
> represents? Down with Hanukah! It is a regressive holiday that  
> merely symbolizes the Judaism that always was; the Judaism that was  
> handed down to us from Sinai; the Judaism that made our ancestors  
> ready to give their lives for the L-rd; the Judaism that young  
> people instinctively know is true and great and real. Such a Judaism  
> is dangerous for us and our leaders. We must do all in our power to  
> bury it.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 20:46:34 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:46:34 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Exodus Conspiracy" and other experiences in Israel
Message-ID: <855590370812101846n489bb4acpad9ecb7f3e468aea@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom L'Kulchem,

       While I was in Israel recently, I not only got a chance to spend lots
of time with my youngest daughter, Kyra (see attached picture of us at Sh'ar
Yaffo (Jaffa Gate), who went on Aliyah in September (she's studying English
Literature at Bar Ilan University), but there were quite a number of
fascinating experiences.

        One of them, was seeing the preview of a movie that will be coming
out in limited release, called, "The Exodus Conspiracy."  I think it makes
an excellent companion piece to "The Exodus Decoded," done by Simcha
Jacobovici.  This other film focuses on an array of evidence, filmed over a
seven year period of time that confirms (not that WE didn't believe it...)
the Exodus, as it's written in the Tanach.

        I had a chance to speak with the filmmaker, Tim Mahoney, and he's
really done some fascinating work on this film (which is almost finished).
You can check it out at:  www.exodusconspiracy.com  I also had the book,
"The Exodus Case," by Dr. Lennart Moller recommended to me, which I ordered
on the internet via Amazon.com while I was still in Israel.  I haven't read
it yet, but it looks truly fascinating.  I bet that some of you have read
it.  Let me know what you thought of it, okay?

         In the Old City of Jerusalem, the King David Museum which had
opened this past Spring, was gone.  It's evidently closed up...I had a
chance to visit briefly with both Yair Davidy and Rav Avraham Feld, who
always provide me with lots of 'food for thought.'  I'll share some more
experiences over the next couple of days - things that I think you'd find of
interest, like meeting for almost 7 hours with Eddie Chumney, as he walked
me though his belief that the New Testament was written for the 10 Lost
Tribes...

         Many stories to share, many experiences to discuss, not the least
of which is the new "World Biblical Zionist" organization which has teamed
up with members of the Likud.  I spent enough time with them to figure out
what they're up to...and I was not pleased.

         But back to making those bricks, without straw...

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                    Hanoch
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 20:47:11 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:47:11 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Exodus Conspiracy" and other experiences in Israel
Message-ID: <855590370812101847p7140d624h58d43724691f82a8@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom L'Kulchem,

       While I was in Israel recently, I not only got a chance to spend lots
of time with my youngest daughter, Kyra (see attached picture of us at Sh'ar
Yaffo (Jaffa Gate), who went on Aliyah in September (she's studying English
Literature at Bar Ilan University), but there were quite a number of
fascinating experiences.

        One of them, was seeing the preview of a movie that will be coming
out in limited release, called, "The Exodus Conspiracy."  I think it makes
an excellent companion piece to "The Exodus Decoded," done by Simcha
Jacobovici.  This other film focuses on an array of evidence, filmed over a
seven year period of time that confirms (not that WE didn't believe it...)
the Exodus, as it's written in the Tanach.

        I had a chance to speak with the filmmaker, Tim Mahoney, and he's
really done some fascinating work on this film (which is almost finished).
You can check it out at:  www.exodusconspiracy.com  I also had the book,
"The Exodus Case," by Dr. Lennart Moller recommended to me, which I ordered
on the internet via Amazon.com while I was still in Israel.  I haven't read
it yet, but it looks truly fascinating.  I bet that some of you have read
it.  Let me know what you thought of it, okay?

         In the Old City of Jerusalem, the King David Museum which had
opened this past Spring, was gone.  It's evidently closed up...I had a
chance to visit briefly with both Yair Davidy and Rav Avraham Feld, who
always provide me with lots of 'food for thought.'  I'll share some more
experiences over the next couple of days - things that I think you'd find of
interest, like meeting for almost 7 hours with Eddie Chumney, as he walked
me though his belief that the New Testament was written for the 10 Lost
Tribes...

         Many stories to share, many experiences to discuss, not the least
of which is the new "World Biblical Zionist" organization which has teamed
up with members of the Likud.  I spent enough time with them to figure out
what they're up to...and I was not pleased.

         But back to making those bricks, without straw...

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                    Hanoch
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Dec 11 06:21:30 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:21:30 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah]]
Message-ID: <494105CA.1070301@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah]
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Thu Dec 11 08:12:47 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:12:47 -0600
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah]]
In-Reply-To: <494105CA.1070301@westnet.com.au>
References: <494105CA.1070301@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <49411FDF.4030309@gninc.ca>

Shalom Joe

I have followed what you wrote in the first place in answer to Jessica's 
input up to where you answer James as follows. Before you wrote the 
following to James, I would have tended to agree with James. In a 
conversation on the phone with you, I got the impression that you don't 
expect an election to happen in Israel before a horrendous war will 
possibly erupt first.  I am sure I could be missing your point of view, 
or even all of you in expressing your views here. But here is the way I 
tend to see it:

I recently purchased a DVD set of six DVD's titled: Against All Odds, 
Israel Survives. As an example in the one case, a group of security 
guards on the outskirts of the city of Jerusalem were suddenly ambushed 
and taken by surprise of a large contingent of the enemy sneaking up on 
them, they were cornered up enough and so vastly outnumbered, they were 
convinced that they would all be killed. They didn't even have much 
ammunition to face such an onslaught. But they decided they die doing 
their utmost best to fight the enemy. When to their great amazement, 
they witnessed the enemy fleeing because they had seen a giant figure in 
the form of Abraham standing guard over this little group of brave 
soldiers who did what they could. Of course this was all staged in a 
very interesting but but like real, and what really happened in Israel 
in the last 60 years. Now, I too like all of you, have followed the 
miraculous ways of Hashem throughout all these last years. Miracle after 
miracle is still happening in Israel.

For instance, in order for the crappy ways of conceit in todays 
leadership in Israel to be revealed, they have to make such 
irresponsible moves like victimizing and imprisoning innocent Jewish 
youth for supposed crimes that they themselves imposed on them by their 
own criminal false leadership. The way I see it, even what just happened 
lately by the removing of 2 families from their homes in the middle of 
the night, where they had lived for the last 20 years, and bulldozing 
down their houses, and the way the residents of the Peace house were 
removed, yes, at the expense of the dear faithful residents of the two 
last mentioned episodes, I believe they are the suffering servants that 
Isaiah constantly writes about, but in the end, this is simply what it 
takes to reveal the utter foolishness of the blind leaders of the blind. 
And this will first have to happen, I don't know if maybe far worse 
things will have to happen yet, before the whole world will see, that 
is, those that will be left, will finally see who was or were the true 
light to the nations.

In the end as a result it will be shown to the nations as we read of in  
Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted 
and extolled, and be very high.
 14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage ( that of the observant 
Jews) was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons 
of men:
 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths 
at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that 
which they had not heard shall they consider.  (KJV) (Christianity 
believes this should be written in plural, if it did not refer to a 
single person like Jesus, but I do not understand it to refer to just 
one person)

I have been following the Zo Arzeinu movement probably spelled wrong, 
from years ago, in other words the Moshe Feiglin stand for righteousness 
trusting in Hashem rather than to want be like all other nations, is a 
stand that  will not go to nothing because Israel has so far seemed to 
fail. There were things happening behind the scenes that was not 
revealed to the world living in ignorance. Maybe I need to be 
straightened out here.

Cornie


Joe Indomenico wrote:
> /Shalom James,
>
> always nice to hear from you.
>
> The Ruach h'Kodesh is always the unifying factor throughout the 
> prophets of the Tanach as you rightfully pointed out in your response. 
> To deny this would undermine the unity of HaShem. So it is not unusual 
> that the _*one*_ prophetic voice is often heard throughout the various 
> prophets.
>
> However, as always, I have put forward a Jewish Rabbinic perspective 
> that I personally subscribe to.
> As a former Christian I do somewhat have an understanding of my former 
> theology. Needless to say ,one that I no longer partake of. Reasons of 
> which I do not wish to discuss in this posting.
>
> Having said this, I would like to expand further some of my statements 
> in order to elucidate my position.
>
> We are in the deep jungles of equatorial Borneo. The jungle is thick 
> with dense lianas and foliage so thick that a human being can barely 
> squeeze through. This is virgin terrain. The need arises to cross the 
> valley and reach the distant hill as this is the only place where a 
> supply helicopter can land in the immediate area. A volunteer comes 
> forward and sets off to cut a path through the thick jungle. The going 
> is tedious and dangerous. Eventually he arrives at the destination. 
> The path is set for future trekkers . This in no time becomes a 
> visible path for all to take. It would not make sense after all the 
> effort to cut a new path.
>
> What I have just described is another slant on the story of the Avot ( 
> patriarchs).
>
> The story of the fledgling nation of Israel starts with Avraham, 
> Yitzchak and Yacov.
> The Rabbis explain that the actions of the Avot set the future path of 
> the entire nation. Their midot (character traits ) and decisions will 
> not only affect their lives but shape the future destiny of their nation.
>
> Let me explain. Avraham who the Torah attests as the father of the 
> faithful, the river crosser, the friend of HaShem accounted as 
> righteous , when he arrives in the land of Canaan is challenged with a 
> famine in the land. The first real test in the land of promise. Where 
> is his emunah ? He proceeds to Egypt, and tells Pharaoh that Sarah is 
> his sister.
> This almost identical story is relived by Yitzchak.
> The Rabbis explain that this story is then lived out by the 
> enslavement of the children of Yacov. Had Avraham remained in the land 
> the story of the redemption from Egypt may have had a different twist. 
> It was ordained by HaShem. Why ?
> To teach the future generations. The story of the bondage from the 
> Pharaohs of this world to the redemption and freedom to serve HaShem 
> in covenant relationship as His people.
> This story is repeated every year at the Pesach seder , lest we 
> forget. And this is a direct mitzva of HaShem's Torah.
>
> There is also the story of first Avraham and then Yitzchak as being 
> the well diggers. Once the wells are dug the surrounding people 
> contest and take these wells. How many times has this story repeated 
> itself throughout history.
> This is to teach that the Jews are the ones that dig deep the wells 
> through their efforts and dedication to bring the hidden living waters 
> of Torah to the surface only to be challenged and contested by 
> Christians and Muslims.
>
> The Torah and indeed the entire Tanach are gifts from HaShem to teach 
> us irrespective of which era, time, century, place we live in. It is 
> the eternal word of HaShem throughout all the generations. Each 
> generation being asked to glean and take to heart the lessons outlined 
> in His book of instruction. This is the legacy of the Har Sinai 
> Revelation that is commanded by HaShem to be taught to the children 
> and the children's children forever.
>
> Now on history repeating itself. There is one ground hog day that 
> repeats and repeats and repeats.
> The sin of the spies : Tisha b'Av ( 9th day of the 5th month of Av).
> On this day :
> /
>
>     * /the spies rejected the land/
>     * /the first temple was destroyed/
>     * /the second temple was destroyed/
>     * /the Spanish Inquisition commenced/
>     * /WW1 started/
>     * /the British signed the White Paper/
>
> /This was a day of scattering and exile and only Mashiach can rectify 
> the sin of the spies and with ahavah he will gather the dispersed and 
> bring them back to the land.
>
> There are many other instances that I would like to give as valid 
> confirmation of my assertions but time prevents me at this stage and 
> the post is starting grow long.
>
> I will leave you on a positive note.
> Yehoshua ben Nun ( Efrayim ) and Calev ben Zunefa ( Yehuda) were the 
> spies with the trust of HaShem and the love of his promise of the land 
> with Yehoshua leading the Israelites into the land . They learned from 
> the previous generation that perished in the midbar.
>
> THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.
>
> If you want to know the future ............... look to the past.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
>
>
> /
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah]
> From:
> James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
> Date:
> Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:05:44 -0500
> To:
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> To:
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
>
> Dear Joe,
>
> I truly appreciate your insights and perspectives in this regard and I 
> will continue to consider them carefully. On the other hand I do not 
> think it is necessarily the case that the present will repeat the 
> past, as per the parallels you draw here, or that the present/future 
> generation of Israel returning to the Land will echo that of the days 
> of Moshe and the first Yeshua. I have made a close study of the Hebrew 
> Prophets, and although they do not provide any kind of straightjacket 
> sort of predictive scenario with no variations and contingencies, I do 
> find, running through the last half of Isaiah, much of Jeremiah, not 
> to mention Hosea, Haggai, and Zechariah, a fairly consistent pattern 
> of predictions. The passages are assembled conveniently on the United 
> Israel Web site and those who have not examined this document might 
> well find it quite instructive. If one goes through these texts, one 
> by one, and marks them in one's Bible, there seems to me to be fairly 
> consistent predictive expectation...
>
> http://unitedisrael.org/Biblical_Research_on_the_Lost_Tribes/United-Israel-and-the-Coming-Redemption-Four-Major-Themes.html
>
> I for one to not at all believe anything is too late and I find myself 
> thinking of the passage in the Damascus Document of the DSS, 
> reflecting the sad and hopeless 1st century BCE period: We wandered 
> for 20 years in the wilderness like blind men who had lost their way, 
> but YHVH raised up for us a Teacher of Righteousness..." I do indeed 
> believe the Go'el will come to Zion and much is ahead, despite the 
> failings you point out since 1967,
>
> James
>
> On Dec 9, 2008, at 4:42 PM, Joe Indomenico wrote:
>
>> /Shalom Jessica,
>>
>> my apologies for this late response to your post on Rabbi Meir Kahane 
>> of blessed memory.
>> Work commitments between now and the annual holiday break are the 
>> usual for this time of the year.
>>
>> First of all I applaud your zeal for the teachings of this great man 
>> who as you know died for his beliefs.
>> I personally believe that his voice was a prophetic one and his 
>> calling was like a great shofar blast.
>> Unfortunately his voice was not heeded and the current crisis is //a 
>> testament to the validity of his statements.
>> They are coming back to haunt not only the Jews but all humanity.
>>
>> Whilst I too am an avid supporter of the late Rabbi ( I posted a 
>> tribute for the 18th anniversary of his assassination ), there are a 
>> few observations that I would like to make.
>>
>> His untimely death in 1990 was not only a* momentary* triumph for his 
>> assassins but also for his detractors from within the secular left 
>> wing of Israeli politics who sighed with relief at his demise and his 
>> final gagging.
>> Eli recently stated that most Israelis are secret Kahane supporters 
>> (incognito) but do not have the gumption nor the courage to admit it 
>> publicly. This leads me to my next observation.
>>
>> The message of Kahane was like a voice in the wilderness. It came and 
>> it went....... *unheeded. *It is now too late to revert back to his 
>> message. His message required action not study and contemplation. Let 
>> me explain.
>>
>> Back in 1967 after the victories of the six day war, Baruch HaShem, 
>> may His Holy name be blessed for ever, there was a move within the 
>> hierarchy of Israel to trade back the land acquired for peace with 
>> the Arabs. Remember the exploits of Prime Minister Eschol and Moshe 
>> Dayan and the betrayal of HaShem's word in giving Temple Mount to the 
>> Moslem Waqf.
>> Oh dear, the sins of the spies revisited.
>> RESULT : the Yom Kippur war of 1973.
>>
>> The disengagement from the Sinai under the Camp David Accord 
>> sponsored by President Carter between Begin and Sadat was another 
>> attempt to trade land for peace.
>> Oh dear, the sins of the spies revisited.
>> RESULT : the Lebanon war and the first Intifada of 1987.
>>
>> Enter Rabbi Meir Kahane. His message was like a final warning from 
>> HaShem. The prophetic pleading not dissimilar from the prophets of 
>> Tanach. His message was in the vein of Yehoshua ben Nun and Calev ben 
>> Zunefa in order to counteract the sin of the ten spies.
>> RESULT :/  /His death , the first Gulf War, the Madrid Accord, the 
>> Oslo Peace/War Accord, the Wye River Accord with the                 
>>   withdrawal from Chevron,Betlechem,Ramallah,Sh'chen and other areas 
>> of Shomron, the Camp David Accord                    offered by Barak 
>> and President Clinton and rejected by Arafat, the second Intifada, 
>> the attacks on the WTC
>>                  ( remember Kahane's assassin was implicated in the 
>> first attack on the WTC), the Disengagement from Gush
>>                  Katif, Amona, the second Lebanon War of 2006 , Beit 
>> Shalom recently in Chevron and finally who nows when
>>                  Shomron, Golan, and Yerushalayim.
>>
>> So the message of Kahane is no longer applicable in so far as that 
>> window of opportunity is now closed. His message was rejected. I 
>> recommend the whole reading of chapter 14 of the book of Numbers 
>> especially:
>> /
>> *?*  ?????????????? ????????, ?????????? ???-?????-????? ??????:  ?????????, ?????????? ???-????????? 
>> ??????-????? ??????--???? ????????. 	*40* And they rose up early in the morning, 
>> and got them up to the top of the mountain, saying: 'Lo, we are here, 
>> and will go up unto the place which the LORD hath promised; for we 
>> have sinned.'
>> *??*  ????????? ??????, ?????? ???? ?????? ???????? ???-???? ??????; ??????, ??? ???????. 	*41* 
>> And Moses said: 'Wherefore now do ye transgress the commandment of 
>> the LORD, seeing it shall not prosper?
>> *??*  ???-????????, ???? ???? ?????? ?????????????; ?????, ???????????, ???????, ??????????. 	*42* Go 
>> not up, for the LORD is not among you; that ye be not smitten down 
>> before your enemies.
>> *??*  ???? ??????????? ?????????????? ???? ??????????, ???????????? ????????:  ????-???-???? ????????? ????????? 
>> ??????, ?????-??????? ?????? ????????. 	*43* For there the Amalekite and the 
>> Canaanite are before you, and ye shall fall by the sword; forasmuch 
>> as ye are turned back from following the LORD, and the LORD will not 
>> be with you.'
>> *??*  ?????????????, ???????? ???-????? ?????; ???????? ???????-?????? ????????, ???-?????? ???????? 
>> ??????????. 	*44* But they presumed to go up to the top of the mountain; 
>> nevertheless the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and Moses, departed 
>> not out of the camp.
>> *??*  ???????? ??????????? ??????????????, ????????? ?????? ??????; ?????????? ????????????, ???-?????????.  
>> {?} 	*45* Then the Amalekite and the Canaanite, who dwelt in that 
>> hill-country, came down, and smote them and beat them down, even unto 
>> Hormah. *{P}*
>>
>>
>> /
>>  This is what Yisrael has experienced in the last 40 years since the 
>> miraculous six day war and more intensely since the rejection of 
>> Kahane's warnings.
>> So what now?
>> Everything is going to script as spelled out in the Tanach.
>> Fighting is no longer an option as the battle belongs to HaShem. What 
>> is required is _*TOTAL TESHUVA !!!!!
>> *_Since the Amelek battle of Lebanon 2006 ( Hezbollah has shown the 
>> Arab world how to fight Israel )under the careful supervision of the 
>> UN peace keeping forces Hezbollah has regrouped and rearmed to the 
>> teeth, Hamas has stockpiled armaments in Gaza, the Palestinians are 
>> receiving good global press of favour in Shomron, the Syrians are 
>> massing on the Golan border and all under the command of Iran.
>>
>> If Israel attacks Iran unilaterally or with American assistance Iran 
>> can and will retaliate with combined attacks from Southern Lebanon, 
>> Southern Syria, Gaza and terrorists from the West Bank.
>> So Iran does not need nuclear weapons to attack Israel. It already 
>> has the requirements to attack Israel. Its nuclear programme is only 
>> a smoke screen to entice Israel to attack and for Iran then to take 
>> the moral high ground and deflect world opinion against Israel as the 
>> aggressor. There is also a very strong possibility according to the 
>> Tanach that Damascus will burn. This I believe will be the catalyst 
>> that will bring the entire world against Israel.
>>
>> Rabbi Kahane's message and teachings were extremely valid in his day, 
>> but unfortunately sad to say we missed the boat.
>> He achieved all that was required of him and may HaShem grant him 
>> repose and a place of honour in Olam h'Ba.
>>
>> What is required now is total emunah ( faith ),bitachon ( trust ) and 
>> complete surrender in Teshuva to HaShem.
>>
>> We awaite the arrival of Mashiach in a role similar to Gideon ben 
>> Yoash ( rejected by his bretheren and called for in times of national 
>> crisis) with his chosen 300 elite ( lest they should say our might 
>> gained this victory) carrying shofars and light pitchers and crying 
>> out "FOR HASHEM AND FOR GIDON / MASHIACH ".
>> Only Mashiach will rectify the sins of the spies that has hounded 
>> Israel throughout history during Tisha b'Av.
>>
>> The battle as in the case of Gideon belongs to HaShem and when men 
>> rise up to sound the shofar - prophetic word and break the pitchers 
>> to emit the light of Torah then HaShem will go before them in battle 
>> ( only two hands - no extra hand to use the sword ) The battle for 
>> truth against error is reaching its final climax.
>>
>> Jessica, this is not to say forget the message of Rabbi Meir Kahane, 
>> rather continue to soak it up with all your might because it still 
>> contains the antidote against complacency, spiritual apathy and 
>> lethargy whilst fostering as you say "zealousness for the land, 
>> Torah, the covenant and the Holy People.
>>
>> Shalom v'Ahavah
>> JOE.
>> ps: where on earth did you get vegemite Rose from ???
>>       I know vegemite, am I missing something.
>> //
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> */
>>
>> *From: *Vegemite Rose <vegemiterose at y7mail.com 
>> <mailto:vegemiterose at y7mail.com>>
>> *Date: *December 8, 2008 12:15:39 AM EST
>> *To: *Roots Of Faith Dialogue List <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
>> <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>>
>> *Subject: **[Dialogue] Down With Hanukah*
>> *Reply-To: *dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>
>>
>> /Shalom to All,
>> I am a new convert to Rabbi Meir Kahane's teachings. I am  blown away 
>> by his wisdom and simple truths. May his name never be forgotten and 
>> may his teachings raise our 'jealousy' for the Land, the Torah, the 
>> Covenant and the Holy People.
>> Blessings from Jessica/
>>
>>  
>>
>> *Down With Hanukah
>> By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l*
>>
>> If I were a Reform rabbi; if I were a leader of the establishment 
>> whose money and prestige have succeeded in capturing for himself the 
>> leadership and voice of American Jewry; if I were one of the members 
>> of the Israeli Government's ruling group; if I were an enlightened 
>> sophisticated, modern Jewish intellectual, I would climb the 
>> barricades and join in battle against that most dangerous of all 
>> Jewish holidays - Hanukah.
>>
>> It is a measure of the total ignorance of the world Jewish community 
>> that there is no holiday that is more universally celebrated than the 
>> "Feast of Lights," and it is an equal measure of the intellectual 
>> dishonesty and hypocrisy of Jewish leadership that it plays along 
>> with the lie. For if ever there was a holiday that stands for 
>> everything that the masses of world Jewry and their leadership has 
>> rejected - it is this one. If one would find an event that is truly 
>> rooted in everything that Jews of our times and their leaders have 
>> rejected and, indeed, attacked - it is this one. If there is any 
>> holiday that is more "un-Jewish" in the sense of our modern beliefs 
>> and practices - I do not know of it.
>>
>> The Hanukah that has erupted unto the world Jewish scene in all its 
>> childishness, asininity, shallowness, ignorance and fraud is not the 
>> Hanukah of reality. The Hanukah that came into vogue because Jewish 
>> parents - in their vapidness needed something to counteract 
>> Christmas; that exploded in a show of "we-have-lights-just-as-our- 
>> goyisha-neighbors" and in an effort to reward our spoiled children 
>> with eight gifts instead of the poor Christian one; the Hanukah that 
>> the Temple, under its captive Rabbi, turned into a school pageant so 
>> that the beaming parents might think that the Religious School is 
>> really successful instead of the tragic joke and waste that it really 
>> is; the Hanukah that speaks of Jewish Patrick Henrys giving-me- 
>> liberty-or-death and that pictures the Maccabees as great liberal 
>> saviors who fought so that the kibbutzim might continue to be free to 
>> preach their Marx and eat their ham, that the split-level dwellers of 
>> suburbia might be allowed to violate their Sabbath in perfect freedom 
>> and the Reform and Conservative Temples continue to fight for civil 
>> rights for Blacks, Puerto Ricans and Jane Fonda, is not remotely 
>> connected with reality.
>>
>> This is not the Hanukah of our ancestors, of the generations of Jews 
>> of Eastern Europe and Yemen and Morocco and Spain and Babylon. It is 
>> surely not the Hanukah for which the Maccabees themselves died. 
>> Truly, could those whom we honor so munificently, return and see what 
>> Hanukah has become, they might very well begin a second Maccabean 
>> revolt. For the life that we Jews lead today was the very cause, the 
>> real reason, for the revolt of the Jews "in those days in our times."
>>
>> What happened in that era more than 2000 years ago? What led a 
>> handful of Jews to rise up in violence against the enemy? And 
>> precisely who was the enemy? What were they fighting for and who were 
>> they fighting against?
>>
>> For years the people of Judea had been the vassals of Greece. True 
>> independence as a state had been unknown for all those decades and, 
>> yet, the Jews did not rise in revolt. It was only when the Greek 
>> policy shifted from mere political control to one that attempted to 
>> suppress the Jewish religion that the revolt erupted in all its 
>> bloodiness. It was not mere liberty that led to the Maccabean 
>> uprising that we so passionately applaud. What we are really cheering 
>> is a brave group of Jews who fought and plunged Judea into a 
>> bloodbath for the right to observe the Sabbath, to follow the laws of 
>> kashrut, to obey the laws of the Torah. In a world where everything 
>> about Hanukah that we commemorate, and teach our children to 
>> commemorate, are things we consider to be outmoded, medieval and 
>> childish!
>>
>> At best, then, those who fought and died for Hanukah were naive and 
>> obscurantist. Had we lived in those days we would certainly not have 
>> done what they did, for everyone knows that the laws of the Torah are 
>> not really Divine but only the products of evolution and men (do not 
>> the Reform, Reconstructionist, and large parts of the Conservative 
>> movements write this daily?) Surely we would not have fought for that 
>> which we violate every day of our lives. No, at best Hanukah emerges 
>> as a needless holiday if not a foolish one. Poor Hannah and her seven 
>> children; poor Mattathias and Judah; poor well meaning chaps all - 
>> but hopelessly backward and utterly unnecessary sacrifices.
>>
>> But there is more. Not only is Hanukah really a foolish and 
>> unnecessary holiday, it is also one that is dangerously fanatical and 
>> illiberal. The first act of rebellion, the first enemy who fell at 
>> the hands of the brave Jewish heroes whom our delightful children 
>> portray so cleverly in their Sunday and religious school pageants, 
>> was not a Greek. He was a Jew.
>>
>> When the enemy sent his troops into Modin to set up an idol and 
>> demand its worship, it was a Jew who decided to exercise his freedom 
>> of pagan worship and who approached the altar to worship Zeus. (After 
>> all, what business was it of anyone what this fellow worshiped?) And 
>> it was this Jew, this apostate, this religious traitor who was struck 
>> down by the brave, glorious, courageous, (are these not the words all 
>> our Sunday schools use to describe him) Mattathias, as he shouted: 
>> "Whoever is for G-d, follow me!"
>>
>> What have we here? What kind of religious intolerance and bigotry? 
>> What kind of a man is this for the anti-religious Ha'shomer Ha'tzair, 
>> the graceful temples of suburbia, the sophisticated intellectuals, 
>> the liberal, open-minded Jews and all the drones who have wearied us 
>> unto death with the concept of Judaism as a humanistic, open-minded, 
>> undogmatic, liberal, universalist (if not Marxist) religion, to 
>> honor? What kind of nationalism is this for Shimon Peres (he who 
>> rejects the 'Galut' and speaks of the proud, free Jew of ancient 
>> Judea and Israel)?
>>
>> And to crush us even more (we who know that Judaism is a faith of 
>> peace which deplores violence), what kind of Jews were these who 
>> reacted to oppression with force? Surely we who so properly have 
>> deplored Jewish violence as fascistic, immoral and (above all) un- 
>> Jewish, stand in horror as we contemplate Jews who declined to picket 
>> the Syrian Greeks to death and who rejected quiet diplomacy for the 
>> sword, spear and arrow (had there been bombs in those days, who can 
>> tell what they might have done?) and "descended to the level of 
>> 'evil'" thus rejecting the ethical and moral concepts of Judaism.
>>
>> Is this the kind of a holiday we wish to propagate? Are these the 
>> kinds of men we want our moral and humanistic children to honor? Is 
>> this the kind of Judaism that we wish to observe and pass on to our 
>> children? Where shall we find the man of courage, the lone voice in 
>> the wilderness to cry out against Hanukah and the Judaism that it 
>> represents - the Judaism of our grandparents and ancestors?
>>
>> Where shall we find the man of honesty and integrity to attack the 
>> Judaism of medievalism and outdated foolishness; the Judaism of 
>> bigotry that strikes down Jews who refuse to observe the Law; the 
>> Judaism of violence that calls for Jewish force and might against the 
>> enemy? When shall we find the courage to proudly eat our Chinese food 
>> and violate our Sabbaths and reject all the separateness, nationalism 
>> and religious maximalism that Hanukah so ignobly represents? Down 
>> with Hanukah! It is a regressive holiday that merely symbolizes the 
>> Judaism that always was; the Judaism that was handed down to us from 
>> Sinai; the Judaism that made our ancestors ready to give their lives 
>> for the L-rd; the Judaism that young people instinctively know is 
>> true and great and real. Such a Judaism is dangerous for us and our 
>> leaders. We must do all in our power to bury it.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Dec 11 09:08:11 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:08:11 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah
In-Reply-To: <494105CA.1070301@westnet.com.au>
References: <494105CA.1070301@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <050701c95ba2$4a390450$deab0cf0$@com>

Shalom Joe,

 

While history does indeed repeat itself, I don?t think it is ?destined? to do so. I see the prophecies as possible outcomes that depend on the behavior of people  who have an interactive relationship with their Creator. Consider how Moses ?changed? G-d?s mind. History, if you will, dealt Israel a fatal blow due to their behavior, yet Moses interceded on their behalf and recalled the Promise. 

 

Love & Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:22 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah]]

 

Shalom James,

always nice to hear from you.

The Ruach h'Kodesh is always the unifying factor throughout the prophets of the Tanach as you rightfully pointed out in your response. To deny this would undermine the unity of HaShem. So it is not unusual that the one prophetic voice is often heard throughout the various prophets.

However, as always, I have put forward a Jewish Rabbinic perspective that I personally subscribe to.
As a former Christian I do somewhat have an understanding of my former theology. Needless to say ,one that I no longer partake of. Reasons of which I do not wish to discuss in this posting.

Having said this, I would like to expand further some of my statements in order to elucidate my position.

We are in the deep jungles of equatorial Borneo. The jungle is thick with dense lianas and foliage so thick that a human being can barely squeeze through. This is virgin terrain. The need arises to cross the valley and reach the distant hill as this is the only place where a supply helicopter can land in the immediate area. A volunteer comes forward and sets off to cut a path through the thick jungle. The going is tedious and dangerous. Eventually he arrives at the destination. The path is set for future trekkers . This in no time becomes a visible path for all to take. It would not make sense after all the effort to cut a new path.

What I have just described is another slant on the story of the Avot ( patriarchs).

The story of the fledgling nation of Israel starts with Avraham, Yitzchak and Yacov.
The Rabbis explain that the actions of the Avot set the future path of the entire nation. Their midot (character traits ) and decisions will not only affect their lives but shape the future destiny of their nation.

Let me explain. Avraham who the Torah attests as the father of the faithful, the river crosser, the friend of HaShem accounted as righteous , when he arrives in the land of Canaan is challenged with a famine in the land. The first real test in the land of promise. Where is his emunah ? He proceeds to Egypt, and tells Pharaoh that Sarah is his sister.
This almost identical story is relived by Yitzchak.
The Rabbis explain that this story is then lived out by the enslavement of the children of Yacov. Had Avraham remained in the land the story of the redemption from Egypt may have had a different twist. It was ordained by HaShem. Why ?
To teach the future generations. The story of the bondage from the Pharaohs of this world to the redemption and freedom to serve HaShem in covenant relationship as His people.
This story is repeated every year at the Pesach seder , lest we forget. And this is a direct mitzva of HaShem's Torah.

There is also the story of first Avraham and then Yitzchak as being the well diggers. Once the wells are dug the surrounding people contest and take these wells. How many times has this story repeated itself throughout history.
This is to teach that the Jews are the ones that dig deep the wells through their efforts and dedication to bring the hidden living waters of Torah to the surface only to be challenged and contested by Christians and Muslims.

The Torah and indeed the entire Tanach are gifts from HaShem to teach us irrespective of which era, time, century, place we live in. It is the eternal word of HaShem throughout all the generations. Each generation being asked to glean and take to heart the lessons outlined in His book of instruction. This is the legacy of the Har Sinai Revelation that is commanded by HaShem to be taught to the children and the children's children forever.

Now on history repeating itself. There is one ground hog day that repeats and repeats and repeats.
The sin of the spies : Tisha b'Av ( 9th day of the 5th month of Av).
On this day :

*	the spies rejected the land
*	the first temple was destroyed
*	the second temple was destroyed
*	the Spanish Inquisition commenced
*	WW1 started
*	the British signed the White Paper

This was a day of scattering and exile and only Mashiach can rectify the sin of the spies and with ahavah he will gather the dispersed and bring them back to the land.

There are many other instances that I would like to give as valid confirmation of my assertions but time prevents me at this stage and the post is starting grow long.

I will leave you on a positive note.
Yehoshua ben Nun ( Efrayim ) and Calev ben Zunefa ( Yehuda) were the spies with the trust of HaShem and the love of his promise of the land with Yehoshua leading the Israelites into the land . They learned from the previous generation that perished in the midbar.

THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.

If you want to know the future ............... look to the past.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.



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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Dec 11 09:23:15 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:23:15 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah (cont.)
In-Reply-To: <050701c95ba2$4a390450$deab0cf0$@com>
References: <494105CA.1070301@westnet.com.au>
	<050701c95ba2$4a390450$deab0cf0$@com>
Message-ID: <051501c95ba4$64c0a240$2e41e6c0$@com>

Hi again Joe and All,

 

And also how Israel repented, averting the disaster that ?History? would have repeatedly dealt them because of their behavior.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:08 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah

 

Shalom Joe,

 

While history does indeed repeat itself, I don?t think it is ?destined? to do so. I see the prophecies as possible outcomes that depend on the behavior of people  who have an interactive relationship with their Creator. Consider how Moses ?changed? G-d?s mind. History, if you will, dealt Israel a fatal blow due to their behavior, yet Moses interceded on their behalf and recalled the Promise. 

 

Love & Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:22 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah]]

 

Shalom James,

always nice to hear from you.

The Ruach h'Kodesh is always the unifying factor throughout the prophets of the Tanach as you rightfully pointed out in your response. To deny this would undermine the unity of HaShem. So it is not unusual that the one prophetic voice is often heard throughout the various prophets.

However, as always, I have put forward a Jewish Rabbinic perspective that I personally subscribe to.
As a former Christian I do somewhat have an understanding of my former theology. Needless to say ,one that I no longer partake of. Reasons of which I do not wish to discuss in this posting.

Having said this, I would like to expand further some of my statements in order to elucidate my position.

We are in the deep jungles of equatorial Borneo. The jungle is thick with dense lianas and foliage so thick that a human being can barely squeeze through. This is virgin terrain. The need arises to cross the valley and reach the distant hill as this is the only place where a supply helicopter can land in the immediate area. A volunteer comes forward and sets off to cut a path through the thick jungle. The going is tedious and dangerous. Eventually he arrives at the destination. The path is set for future trekkers . This in no time becomes a visible path for all to take. It would not make sense after all the effort to cut a new path.

What I have just described is another slant on the story of the Avot ( patriarchs).

The story of the fledgling nation of Israel starts with Avraham, Yitzchak and Yacov.
The Rabbis explain that the actions of the Avot set the future path of the entire nation. Their midot (character traits ) and decisions will not only affect their lives but shape the future destiny of their nation.

Let me explain. Avraham who the Torah attests as the father of the faithful, the river crosser, the friend of HaShem accounted as righteous , when he arrives in the land of Canaan is challenged with a famine in the land. The first real test in the land of promise. Where is his emunah ? He proceeds to Egypt, and tells Pharaoh that Sarah is his sister.
This almost identical story is relived by Yitzchak.
The Rabbis explain that this story is then lived out by the enslavement of the children of Yacov. Had Avraham remained in the land the story of the redemption from Egypt may have had a different twist. It was ordained by HaShem. Why ?
To teach the future generations. The story of the bondage from the Pharaohs of this world to the redemption and freedom to serve HaShem in covenant relationship as His people.
This story is repeated every year at the Pesach seder , lest we forget. And this is a direct mitzva of HaShem's Torah.

There is also the story of first Avraham and then Yitzchak as being the well diggers. Once the wells are dug the surrounding people contest and take these wells. How many times has this story repeated itself throughout history.
This is to teach that the Jews are the ones that dig deep the wells through their efforts and dedication to bring the hidden living waters of Torah to the surface only to be challenged and contested by Christians and Muslims.

The Torah and indeed the entire Tanach are gifts from HaShem to teach us irrespective of which era, time, century, place we live in. It is the eternal word of HaShem throughout all the generations. Each generation being asked to glean and take to heart the lessons outlined in His book of instruction. This is the legacy of the Har Sinai Revelation that is commanded by HaShem to be taught to the children and the children's children forever.

Now on history repeating itself. There is one ground hog day that repeats and repeats and repeats.
The sin of the spies : Tisha b'Av ( 9th day of the 5th month of Av).
On this day :

*	the spies rejected the land
*	the first temple was destroyed
*	the second temple was destroyed
*	the Spanish Inquisition commenced
*	WW1 started
*	the British signed the White Paper

This was a day of scattering and exile and only Mashiach can rectify the sin of the spies and with ahavah he will gather the dispersed and bring them back to the land.

There are many other instances that I would like to give as valid confirmation of my assertions but time prevents me at this stage and the post is starting grow long.

I will leave you on a positive note.
Yehoshua ben Nun ( Efrayim ) and Calev ben Zunefa ( Yehuda) were the spies with the trust of HaShem and the love of his promise of the land with Yehoshua leading the Israelites into the land . They learned from the previous generation that perished in the midbar.

THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.

If you want to know the future ............... look to the past.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 11 09:37:21 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:37:21 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah
In-Reply-To: <050701c95ba2$4a390450$deab0cf0$@com>
References: <494105CA.1070301@westnet.com.au>
	<050701c95ba2$4a390450$deab0cf0$@com>
Message-ID: <CE0C0FD0-AF43-44EB-B85E-CCA98D77CD7E@earthlink.net>

Thanks Joe,

Just a few quick observations at the head of a crammed day here...

I am glad that neither of us are focusing on Xtn theology here as  
those perspectives truly can skewer things when it comes to taking a  
look at Torah and Prophets in their Hebraic contexts.

Although I have to agree with you that there have been repetitions and  
cycles in the history of humankind, as well as the history of Israel,  
I think it remains the case that even some of the remarkable dates  
that are repeated (i.e., fall of both Temples around the 9th of Av),  
if you look at the circumstances, in this case the Babylonian and  
Roman destructions, the parallels, causes, and results, are quite  
different. I am all ears to gaining what can be gained from the  
Rabbinic thinking on these matters but I think we both realize the  
Gemara and Chazon, especially on these matters, preserves lots of  
alternative, even contradictory views (see Sanhedrin 98 for a start).  
This is in fact part of its strength. The same is true of texts and  
interpretation preserved around the late 2nd Temple period. Various  
pious souls struggled to make sense of the prophetic tradition,  
especially the book of Daniel, but with varying results. In fact, few  
got it all right.

I want to learn from the past, but I do not think in any way these  
patterns from the time of Moses and Joshua need be repeated, and the  
prophets actually pinpoint areas where the coming Exodus will be quite  
different, so much so the first will not even be recalled. Please  
don't take these comments as a challenge but as a supplement to what  
you have written.

"For YHVH is creating a new thing on earth: The Woman sets out to find  
her Strong One..." Jeremiah 31:22, and context, plus Isa 54. Hosea 2-3  
is also quite important in this regard, and the patterns there  
absolutely break out in terms of the past, at least as I understand  
things...

This of course has to do with the tribes and Rachel's children, see  
the context...

Thanks for all your wisdom,

Best,

James


On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Patty wrote:

> Shalom Joe,
>
> While history does indeed repeat itself, I don?t think it is  
> ?destined? to do so. I see the prophecies as possible outcomes that  
> depend on the behavior of people  who have an interactive  
> relationship with their Creator. Consider how Moses ?changed? G-d?s  
> mind. History, if you will, dealt Israel a fatal blow due to their  
> behavior, yet Moses interceded on their behalf and recalled the  
> Promise.
>
> Love & Blessings,
> Patty
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:22 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah]]
>
> Shalom James,
>
> always nice to hear from you.
>
> The Ruach h'Kodesh is always the unifying factor throughout the  
> prophets of the Tanach as you rightfully pointed out in your  
> response. To deny this would undermine the unity of HaShem. So it is  
> not unusual that the one prophetic voice is often heard throughout  
> the various prophets.
>
> However, as always, I have put forward a Jewish Rabbinic perspective  
> that I personally subscribe to.
> As a former Christian I do somewhat have an understanding of my  
> former theology. Needless to say ,one that I no longer partake of.  
> Reasons of which I do not wish to discuss in this posting.
>
> Having said this, I would like to expand further some of my  
> statements in order to elucidate my position.
>
> We are in the deep jungles of equatorial Borneo. The jungle is thick  
> with dense lianas and foliage so thick that a human being can barely  
> squeeze through. This is virgin terrain. The need arises to cross  
> the valley and reach the distant hill as this is the only place  
> where a supply helicopter can land in the immediate area. A  
> volunteer comes forward and sets off to cut a path through the thick  
> jungle. The going is tedious and dangerous. Eventually he arrives at  
> the destination. The path is set for future trekkers . This in no  
> time becomes a visible path for all to take. It would not make sense  
> after all the effort to cut a new path.
>
> What I have just described is another slant on the story of the Avot  
> ( patriarchs).
>
> The story of the fledgling nation of Israel starts with Avraham,  
> Yitzchak and Yacov.
> The Rabbis explain that the actions of the Avot set the future path  
> of the entire nation. Their midot (character traits ) and decisions  
> will not only affect their lives but shape the future destiny of  
> their nation.
>
> Let me explain. Avraham who the Torah attests as the father of the  
> faithful, the river crosser, the friend of HaShem accounted as  
> righteous , when he arrives in the land of Canaan is challenged with  
> a famine in the land. The first real test in the land of promise.  
> Where is his emunah ? He proceeds to Egypt, and tells Pharaoh that  
> Sarah is his sister.
> This almost identical story is relived by Yitzchak.
> The Rabbis explain that this story is then lived out by the  
> enslavement of the children of Yacov. Had Avraham remained in the  
> land the story of the redemption from Egypt may have had a different  
> twist. It was ordained by HaShem. Why ?
> To teach the future generations. The story of the bondage from the  
> Pharaohs of this world to the redemption and freedom to serve HaShem  
> in covenant relationship as His people.
> This story is repeated every year at the Pesach seder , lest we  
> forget. And this is a direct mitzva of HaShem's Torah.
>
> There is also the story of first Avraham and then Yitzchak as being  
> the well diggers. Once the wells are dug the surrounding people  
> contest and take these wells. How many times has this story repeated  
> itself throughout history.
> This is to teach that the Jews are the ones that dig deep the wells  
> through their efforts and dedication to bring the hidden living  
> waters of Torah to the surface only to be challenged and contested  
> by Christians and Muslims.
>
> The Torah and indeed the entire Tanach are gifts from HaShem to  
> teach us irrespective of which era, time, century, place we live in.  
> It is the eternal word of HaShem throughout all the generations.  
> Each generation being asked to glean and take to heart the lessons  
> outlined in His book of instruction. This is the legacy of the Har  
> Sinai Revelation that is commanded by HaShem to be taught to the  
> children and the children's children forever.
>
> Now on history repeating itself. There is one ground hog day that  
> repeats and repeats and repeats.
> The sin of the spies : Tisha b'Av ( 9th day of the 5th month of Av).
> On this day :
> the spies rejected the land
> the first temple was destroyed
> the second temple was destroyed
> the Spanish Inquisition commenced
> WW1 started
> the British signed the White Paper
> This was a day of scattering and exile and only Mashiach can rectify  
> the sin of the spies and with ahavah he will gather the dispersed  
> and bring them back to the land.
>
> There are many other instances that I would like to give as valid  
> confirmation of my assertions but time prevents me at this stage and  
> the post is starting grow long.
>
> I will leave you on a positive note.
> Yehoshua ben Nun ( Efrayim ) and Calev ben Zunefa ( Yehuda) were the  
> spies with the trust of HaShem and the love of his promise of the  
> land with Yehoshua leading the Israelites into the land . They  
> learned from the previous generation that perished in the midbar.
>
> THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.
>
> If you want to know the future ............... look to the past.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
>
> _______________________________________________

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Dec 11 16:38:17 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:38:17 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah]
Message-ID: <49419659.4000501@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Dec 11 16:46:41 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:46:41 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah]
Message-ID: <49419851.6030802@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Dec 11 16:51:52 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:51:52 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah]]]
Message-ID: <49419988.5020408@westnet.com.au>

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Dec 11 18:52:02 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:52:02 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah]
In-Reply-To: <49419659.4000501@westnet.com.au>
References: <49419659.4000501@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <058b01c95bf3$dac23130$90469390$@com>

Thanks Joe, I will study this carefully. Perhaps it could be OUR ?collective? Teshuva that brings restoration to Israel (?).

 

Love & Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 5:38 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah]

 

Shalom Patty,

thank you for your comments.
I agree with all the comments you made but somehow I am getting the impression that maybe you are reading things differently than intended by myself .

Yes, definitely Moshe interceded on behalf of Am Yisrael. Note however that this episode occurred whilst Moshe was still atop Har Sinai in the presence of HaShem. The people were still in the throws of worshiping the golden calf. So one may say that Teshuva had not yet occurred . The "change of mind" was  for the sake of the Patriarchs and the remembrance of the covenant.

There is the 17th of Tammuz and Tisha b'Av. But yet there is also Yom Kippur .

There was the sin of the spies and there was national repentance and yet Moshe declared "do not go up , lest you be struck down before your enemies, for the L-rd is not among you. " Numbers 14 v 42.
That generation did not enter the land of promise. The following generation that had internalized the lessons of the previous failures entered under the guidance of Yehoshua ben Nun. There is a very interesting episode at the crossing of the Jordan where 12 stones are taken out of the river to build a memorial and 12 stones are taken from the Holy land and  put in the river before the water re flows. This is quite significant but will have to be for another posting.

There is the episode of Eliyahu and the prophets of baal . Again the people were hovering in their allegiance. The prophets of baal were declaring in presumption and arrogance - look how good we are, look how observant we are, look we are willing to spill our blood. Eliyahu on the other hand declared in all humility - look how bad we are, the altar is in disrepair, someone is not doing their job. First he repaired the altar and then he placed a twelve stone memorial around it. Another reminder that all depended on the sake of the patriarchs and the remembrance of the covenant by HaShem.
After this incredible episode the people declared " The L-rd , He is G-d: The L-rd He is G-d "
History tells us that they went back to their old ways. They did not learn from their mistakes.

There is the affair of David and Batsheva. Adultery and premeditated murder to cover up the evidence. Enter the prophet Natan and teshuva is activated in David's heart. This is the man that the Tanach states had a heart for HaShem.
Did he repent ? ...... Yes. Was he forgiven ?.........Yes.
However the consequences of his actions triggered enormous repercussions in his personal life, from the still birth of the child from that affair, to family disunity and eventually to bloodshed within the family. A man acquainted with sorrow.

The Rabbis teach that teshuva is one the highest forms of worship to HaShem . HaShem desires the penitent. Teshuva requires a changing of one's ways, to learn from the mistakes, to not repeat the same mistakes. This is true teshuva. HaShem in His infinite mercy will always rejoice at the return of a sinner but in His attribute of justice and righteousness will not overlook the consequences of the actions of those sins. 
"Fear not O Yacov for I will save you, but by no means will I leave you unpunished."

The Holy scriptures are meant to teach us, edify us, instill total trust and faith in HaShem and bring us into covenant relationship with HaShem.

Until the sin is rectified , History will keep on repeating itself and the same mistake will occur over and over.

HaShem in His infinate mercy will always send the lone prophetic word into the world to bring people to teshuva and avert imminent disaster. Unfortunately that voice is heeded only by a small remnant.

Now finally back to the sins of the spies and 1967.

Do we see trust and faith in HaShem ?
Or do we see the dependence on the arm of flesh and the appeasement of the nations?

Do we see the conquering of the land ?
Or do we see the wholesale give away of land for peace / war ?

Do we see the Yehoshua ben Nuns and the positive reports ?
Or do we see the sneering against the Meir Kahanes as hawks of war ?

Do we see the Knesset with a 12 stone memorial around its perimeter ?
Or do we see a den of robbers full of corruption and lies?

Do we see a Supreme Court that champions the plight of the widow and the orphan?
Or do we see a court that signs away the rights of the settlers without a proper hearing?

Do we see a Supreme court that seeks justice for its citizens ?
Or do we see a court that expels its citizens from their land?

Do we see a Government that protects its people from enemy attack ?
Or do we see a Government that releases terrorists from the jails?

Where is the teshuva?

Fortunately, HaShem is a G-D who keeps covenant in remembrance. May His Blessed name be praised forever.
As it is written in Ezekiel chap 36, HaShem will redeem on account of His Holy name ( the covenant ) and the profanation of His Name because of the people and their relationship to the land. 
However He says that He will sanctify His Holy Name in the eyes of the world through and among"ISRAEL" as he cleanses and restores the covenant. Amen, so it be!

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Dec 11 18:54:47 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:54:47 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Change of e-mail address
In-Reply-To: <49419659.4000501@westnet.com.au>
References: <49419659.4000501@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <059001c95bf4$3c92eee0$b5b8cca0$@com>

Shalom All,

 

I got a ?bounce? message from the moderator, it said that some e-mails sent to me bounced. I changed it to: aac_usa at yahoo.com for the group, but if anyone tried to e-mail me and it bounced, please use this also.

 

Thanks!

 

Patty

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 21:00:18 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:00:18 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Cute Shabbat Song
Message-ID: <855590370812111900k5da3c37bqd5bef22f3a94d47a@mail.gmail.com>

A cute song for Shabbat....
 Click here: YouTube - Shabbat Shalom
Megamix<http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaIviASmllI&feature=related>

Shabbat Shalom,
          *Hanoch*
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Thu Dec 11 21:49:18 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:49:18 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Kislev 15 and the Abomination that Makes Desolate
Message-ID: <d4e.419ae6dd.3673393e@aol.com>

We are fast approaching the Feast of Dedication. I will be teaching on this  
subject for my Sunday Shul program on December 21st at 6:00 P.M. CST.  The 
story of Hanukkah recounts the tale of the re-dedication of the altar by a  brave 
group of Jews who refused to partake in the wickedness brought into their  
land by the evil Antiochus Epiphanes (referred to in 1 Maccabees as an evil  
root). A year ago at this time, as part of my own preparation for the keeping of  
this festival I decided to re-read the First book of Maccabees.  At that  
time I found an interesting point that is worth repeating tonight.
 
Anyone interested in Biblical prophecy is familiar with the  Abominating 
Sacrilege. It is interesting to note that tonight's  date corresponds to an event 
that took place 2,175 years ago on this very day.  It was on the 15th of 
Kislev in the year 167 BCE that Antiochus Epiphanes set up  an abominating 
sacrilege in the temple, on the altar of burnt offering.
 
I Maccabees 1:54 - "Now on the fifteenth day of Kislev, in the one  hundred 
forty-fifth year (167 BCE), they erected a desolating sacrilege on the  altar 
of burnt offering."
 
The writers of Matthew and Mark mention the setting up of an abominating  
sacrilege.  Matthew tells us that it will be standing in the ?Holy Place?  
whereas Mark simply tells us that it stands ?where it ought not?. (see Matthew  
24:15 and Mark 13:14)
 
Matthew also points us to the prophet Daniel for further instruction and  
both he and Mark add the admonition to ?let the reader understand?.
 
Daniel makes three references to the abominating sacrilege.
 
Daniel 9:27 - He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and  
for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering to cease; and in their 
 place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed  end is 
poured out upon the desolator.
 
Daniel 11:31 - Forces sent by him shall occupy and profane the temple and  
fortress. They shall abolish the regular burnt offering and set up the  
abomination that makes desolate.
 
Daniel 12:11 & 12 - From the time that the regular burnt offering is  taken 
away and the abomination that desolates is set up, there  shall be one thousand 
two hundred and ninety days. Happy are those that who  persevere and attain 
the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
 
Many scholars have proposed that the events described by Daniel are  speaking 
of those committed by the evil root Antiochus Epiphanes IV.  At  the very 
least, this ruler and his dealings with, or against the people of God  seem to be 
a picture of that final evil root that many predict will arise in the  last 
days.
 
I find it interesting that this figure (often associated with the  
"Anti-Christ" or False Messiah) fits the following description in I  Maccabees:
 
He puts forth an edict that the whole kingdom should be one people. All  the 
Gentiles accepted the edict (called his religion in I Maccabees 1:43) as  well 
as some of the Jews. The religion called for various forms of idolatry,  
Profanation of the Sabbath, eating unclean foods and a rejection of the  Torah.
 
In our day we are faced with the same two choices as the brave souls who  
stood firm against this evil root. Will we stand with God, Torah and Israel? Or  
will we fall for a man-made religion that says the Torah is abolished, diet 
does  not matter and the Sabbath is not part of YHVH's Way for humanity.
 
I want people to realize that this date is recorded as an evil day in the  
history of Israel. I also want to stand against such evil teaching as the  
Religion of Antiochus Epiphanes. This Sunday night I will be teaching on Keeping  
the Commandments. You will not want to miss this class.
 



Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Dec 12 01:32:45 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:32:45 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Cute Shabbat Song
In-Reply-To: <855590370812111900k5da3c37bqd5bef22f3a94d47a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <121220080732.16597.4942139D000CCCAE000040D522230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Most excellent!

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


A cute song for Shabbat....                   
Click here: YouTube - Shabbat Shalom Megamix 

Shabbat Shalom,
          Hanoch
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 06:44:43 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 04:44:43 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] For those looking to Netanyahu & Likud....
Message-ID: <855590370812120444v6f745008r238043c0689c2f74@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone who thinks that Netanyahu is a nationalist, please read the following
article.  He's a politician, not a leader.  I've highlighted some sections
in red.  Be warned...and note, Feiglin has been shifted down more then 10
slots, he's no longer #2; despite the votes in his favor.

  Shabbat Shalom,
            *Hanoch*
 Netanyahu Continues War Against Feiglin Kislev 14, 5769, 11 December 08
06:03
by by Hillel Fendel

(IsraelNN.com) Likud Chairman and Prime Ministerial candidate Binyamin
Netanyahu
has to choose between mollifying the international community regarding Moshe
Feiglin, and his own party supporters ? and he is choosing the former.

Though Feiglin made a strong showing in the party primaries earlier this
week ? he was voted into the 20th slot on the Likud list of Knesset
candidates for the upcoming national elections ? Netanyahu is showing no
signs of coming towards him or his supporters.  Feiglin was not even
invited, until an hour before the event, to a gathering for new future
Knesset Members in Likud headquarters on Thursday afternoon.

In addition, it was reported in Haaretz ? though nowhere else ? that
Netanyahu had reassured "confidantes" that Feiglin need not be taken
seriously.  The Likud will not end up losing votes because of Feiglin, he
reportedly said, and "the entire faction is with me? They all called today
and expressed their support. Feiglin will fade away very quickly."

"They can blow it up more and more, but even this lemon doesn't have much
juice left in it," Netanyahu was quoted as saying.

Netanyahu also met on Thursday with 26 European Union ambassadors, and
sought to allay fears that what is perceived as his new "right-wing" Likud
Knesset faction will sabotage the "peace process."  He told them that he
would continue negotiations with both the Palestinian Authority and Syria,
but slightly differently.  He said he does not accept Foreign Minister Tzipi
Livni's position of "all or nothing," meaning that nothing can be finalized
until all the issues ? including Jerusalem and the refugees ? are finalized.
 He did not spell out his own position, however.%ad%

Regarding Syria, he said he favors dialogue with Damascus, but that Israel
must remain on the Golan Heights. Again, he did not specify how much of the
Golan must remain Israeli.

Netanyahu's remarks come as the Bayit Yehudi (Jewish Home) and Yisrael
Beiteinu (Israel Our Home) parties ? the Likud's rivals in the contest for
support from the nationalist sector ? are choosing their own candidates for
the upcoming election.  If Netanyahu insists on distancing himself from
Feiglin and the pro-Golan and pro-Yesha policies that he represents, many
nationalist voters are liable to leave the Likud in favor of more
nationalist parties.
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 13:01:28 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:01:28 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Defining 'Insanity'
Message-ID: <855590370812121101t548f9e5cn6b027357dea2cbee@mail.gmail.com>

I was told recently that if someone repeats the same action (as had been
previously), expecting a different result (this time), that they were
insane.   Well, does this qualify, or not?
        *Hanoch*
 Cash arrives in Gaza

December 11, 2008

JERUSALEM (JTA) -- An armored truck brought $25 million in Israeli shekels,
or nearly $6 1/2 million, from the West Bank into Gaza.

Lawmakers and families of terror victims criticized Thursday's transfer,
saying the money would be used to fund terror.

Israel has not allowed cash into Gaza since October. Last week there was not
enough cash available to pay the salaries of thousands of Palestinian
Authority employees.

Kadima Knesset member Tzahi Hanegbi told Army Radio that no money should be
transferred to Hamas until it releases kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit.

Headquarters for the Release of Gilad Shalit, a national organization
working on behalf of the kidnapped soldier, marked Shalit's 900th day in
captivity Thursday.

Earlier in the day, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told students at a Tel Aviv
high school she could not be sure Shalit would return. "There is always a
risk of casualties, and it's not always possible to bring everyone back
home," she reportedly said.
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 13:47:55 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:47:55 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] How "Democracy" is spelled in Israel
Message-ID: <855590370812121147k5befd1b1wefd49ef0cc7b00e6@mail.gmail.com>

Likud Bumps Feiglin to an Unrealistic Slot*December 12, 2008*

[image: feig.jpg]One might describe Likud leader Binyamin Netanyahu's
response as 'euphoric' upon hearing the Likud Court accepted an appeal and
has decided to bump Manhigut Yehudit faction member Moshe Feiglin from the
20th to the 36th slot, one that is not expected to enter the 18th Knesset.

Likud member Ofir Okenus, who is close to Netanyahu, filed an appeal to the
party's court based on technical issues pertaining to the party lineup. The
court ruled in his favor, deciding to push Feiglin back on the list.

Michael Ratzon was also impacted by the court's ruling, being pushed back
from the 24th to the 37th position, telling party election officials the
decision is a miscarriage of democracy.

Many Likud members hailed the decision, stating "they pushed the rebellion
aside" while some party supporters are now questioning if they will vote for
Likud in the election after the move, which distances the leader of the
right-wing ideological faction which most closely represents the principles
on which the party was formed.

Moshe Feiglin has indicated he does not plan to appeal the decision. Ratzon
announced he plans to appeal.

(*Yechiel Spira ? YWN Israel*)
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From stephen at 777jesusislord.com  Fri Dec 12 14:34:27 2008
From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:34:27 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Amen
References: <4942A6A9.A20C2.57B6@pop.directnic.com>
Message-ID: <B0E0346394FE4D87BA6E8D73E52312E4@SEWVAC011>

Joe,

You wrote:

However He says that He will sanctify His Holy Name in the eyes of the world 
through and among"ISRAEL" as he cleanses and restores the covenant. Amen, so 
it be!

Amen!

I enjoyed all you wrote .... but the last part
brought the Amen!

As a gentile, or goyim... I have been amazed that there are Arabs in Israel 
who do Not worship
Hashem.... and that this is considered "normal".  And that the Lord permits 
it for some reason.

Zechariah 4:17    If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to 
Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty,
they will have no rain.   vs 18. 19 etc.

Stephen


Tikkun  Tzedek
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 33


> Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to
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> than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah] (Patty )
>   2. Change of e-mail address (Patty )
>   3. Cute Shabbat Song (Hanoch Young)
>   4. Kislev 15 and the Abomination that Makes Desolate
>      (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
>   5. Re: Cute Shabbat Song (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
>   6. For those looking to Netanyahu & Likud.... (Hanoch Young)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:52:02 -0500
> From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah]
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <058b01c95bf3$dac23130$90469390$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Thanks Joe, I will study this carefully. Perhaps it could be OUR 
> ??ocollective??? Teshuva that brings restoration to Israel (?).
>
>
>
> Love & Blessings,
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 5:38 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah]
>
>
>
> Shalom Patty,
>
> thank you for your comments.
> I agree with all the comments you made but somehow I am getting the 
> impression that maybe you are reading things differently than intended by 
> myself .
>
> Yes, definitely Moshe interceded on behalf of Am Yisrael. Note however 
> that this episode occurred whilst Moshe was still atop Har Sinai in the 
> presence of HaShem. The people were still in the throws of worshiping the 
> golden calf. So one may say that Teshuva had not yet occurred . The 
> "change of mind" was  for the sake of the Patriarchs and the remembrance 
> of the covenant.
>
> There is the 17th of Tammuz and Tisha b'Av. But yet there is also Yom 
> Kippur .
>
> There was the sin of the spies and there was national repentance and yet 
> Moshe declared "do not go up , lest you be struck down before your 
> enemies, for the L-rd is not among you. " Numbers 14 v 42.
> That generation did not enter the land of promise. The following 
> generation that had internalized the lessons of the previous failures 
> entered under the guidance of Yehoshua ben Nun. There is a very 
> interesting episode at the crossing of the Jordan where 12 stones are 
> taken out of the river to build a memorial and 12 stones are taken from 
> the Holy land and  put in the river before the water re flows. This is 
> quite significant but will have to be for another posting.
>
> There is the episode of Eliyahu and the prophets of baal . Again the 
> people were hovering in their allegiance. The prophets of baal were 
> declaring in presumption and arrogance - look how good we are, look how 
> observant we are, look we are willing to spill our blood. Eliyahu on the 
> other hand declared in all humility - look how bad we are, the altar is in 
> disrepair, someone is not doing their job. First he repaired the altar and 
> then he placed a twelve stone memorial around it. Another reminder that 
> all depended on the sake of the patriarchs and the remembrance of the 
> covenant by HaShem.
> After this incredible episode the people declared " The L-rd , He is G-d: 
> The L-rd He is G-d "
> History tells us that they went back to their old ways. They did not learn 
> from their mistakes.
>
> There is the affair of David and Batsheva. Adultery and premeditated 
> murder to cover up the evidence. Enter the prophet Natan and teshuva is 
> activated in David's heart. This is the man that the Tanach states had a 
> heart for HaShem.
> Did he repent ? ...... Yes. Was he forgiven ?.........Yes.
> However the consequences of his actions triggered enormous repercussions 
> in his personal life, from the still birth of the child from that affair, 
> to family disunity and eventually to bloodshed within the family. A man 
> acquainted with sorrow.
>
> The Rabbis teach that teshuva is one the highest forms of worship to 
> HaShem . HaShem desires the penitent. Teshuva requires a changing of one's 
> ways, to learn from the mistakes, to not repeat the same mistakes. This is 
> true teshuva. HaShem in His infinite mercy will always rejoice at the 
> return of a sinner but in His attribute of justice and righteousness will 
> not overlook the consequences of the actions of those sins.
> "Fear not O Yacov for I will save you, but by no means will I leave you 
> unpunished."
>
> The Holy scriptures are meant to teach us, edify us, instill total trust 
> and faith in HaShem and bring us into covenant relationship with HaShem.
>
> Until the sin is rectified , History will keep on repeating itself and the 
> same mistake will occur over and over.
>
> HaShem in His infinate mercy will always send the lone prophetic word into 
> the world to bring people to teshuva and avert imminent disaster. 
> Unfortunately that voice is heeded only by a small remnant.
>
> Now finally back to the sins of the spies and 1967.
>
> Do we see trust and faith in HaShem ?
> Or do we see the dependence on the arm of flesh and the appeasement of the 
> nations?
>
> Do we see the conquering of the land ?
> Or do we see the wholesale give away of land for peace / war ?
>
> Do we see the Yehoshua ben Nuns and the positive reports ?
> Or do we see the sneering against the Meir Kahanes as hawks of war ?
>
> Do we see the Knesset with a 12 stone memorial around its perimeter ?
> Or do we see a den of robbers full of corruption and lies?
>
> Do we see a Supreme Court that champions the plight of the widow and the 
> orphan?
> Or do we see a court that signs away the rights of the settlers without a 
> proper hearing?
>
> Do we see a Supreme court that seeks justice for its citizens ?
> Or do we see a court that expels its citizens from their land?
>
> Do we see a Government that protects its people from enemy attack ?
> Or do we see a Government that releases terrorists from the jails?
>
> Where is the teshuva?
>
> Fortunately, HaShem is a G-D who keeps covenant in remembrance. May His 
> Blessed name be praised forever.
> As it is written in Ezekiel chap 36, HaShem will redeem on account of His 
> Holy name ( the covenant ) and the profanation of His Name because of the 
> people and their relationship to the land.
> However He says that He will sanctify His Holy Name in the eyes of the 
> world through and among"ISRAEL" as he cleanses and restores the covenant. 
> Amen, so it be!
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:54:47 -0500
> From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Change of e-mail address
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Message-ID: <059001c95bf4$3c92eee0$b5b8cca0$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Shalom All,
>
>
>
> I got a ??obounce??? message from the moderator, it said that some e-mails 
> sent to me bounced. I changed it to: aac_usa at yahoo.com for the group, but 
> if anyone tried to e-mail me and it bounced, please use this also.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:00:18 -0800
> From: "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Cute Shabbat Song
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Message-ID:
> <855590370812111900k5da3c37bqd5bef22f3a94d47a at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> A cute song for Shabbat....
> Click here: YouTube - Shabbat Shalom
> Megamix<http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaIviASmllI&feature=related>
>
> Shabbat Shalom,
>          *Hanoch*
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:49:18 EST
> From: RNDAVAR at aol.com
> Subject: [Dialogue] Kislev 15 and the Abomination that Makes Desolate
> To: uilist at unitedisrael.org, dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Message-ID: <d4e.419ae6dd.3673393e at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> We are fast approaching the Feast of Dedication. I will be teaching on 
> this
> subject for my Sunday Shul program on December 21st at 6:00 P.M. CST.  The
> story of Hanukkah recounts the tale of the re-dedication of the altar by a 
> brave
> group of Jews who refused to partake in the wickedness brought into their
> land by the evil Antiochus Epiphanes (referred to in 1 Maccabees as an 
> evil
> root). A year ago at this time, as part of my own preparation for the 
> keeping of
> this festival I decided to re-read the First book of Maccabees.  At that
> time I found an interesting point that is worth repeating tonight.
>
> Anyone interested in Biblical prophecy is familiar with the  Abominating
> Sacrilege. It is interesting to note that tonight's  date corresponds to 
> an event
> that took place 2,175 years ago on this very day.  It was on the 15th of
> Kislev in the year 167 BCE that Antiochus Epiphanes set up  an abominating
> sacrilege in the temple, on the altar of burnt offering.
>
> I Maccabees 1:54 - "Now on the fifteenth day of Kislev, in the one 
> hundred
> forty-fifth year (167 BCE), they erected a desolating sacrilege on the 
> altar
> of burnt offering."
>
> The writers of Matthew and Mark mention the setting up of an abominating
> sacrilege.  Matthew tells us that it will be standing in the ??oHoly 
> Place???
> whereas Mark simply tells us that it stands ??owhere it ought not???. (see 
> Matthew
> 24:15 and Mark 13:14)
>
> Matthew also points us to the prophet Daniel for further instruction and
> both he and Mark add the admonition to ??olet the reader understand???.
>
> Daniel makes three references to the abominating sacrilege.
>
> Daniel 9:27 - He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and
> for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering to cease; and in 
> their
> place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed  end is
> poured out upon the desolator.
>
> Daniel 11:31 - Forces sent by him shall occupy and profane the temple and
> fortress. They shall abolish the regular burnt offering and set up the
> abomination that makes desolate.
>
> Daniel 12:11 & 12 - From the time that the regular burnt offering is 
> taken
> away and the abomination that desolates is set up, there  shall be one 
> thousand
> two hundred and ninety days. Happy are those that who  persevere and 
> attain
> the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
>
> Many scholars have proposed that the events described by Daniel are 
> speaking
> of those committed by the evil root Antiochus Epiphanes IV.  At  the very
> least, this ruler and his dealings with, or against the people of God 
> seem to be
> a picture of that final evil root that many predict will arise in the 
> last
> days.
>
> I find it interesting that this figure (often associated with the
> "Anti-Christ" or False Messiah) fits the following description in I 
> Maccabees:
>
> He puts forth an edict that the whole kingdom should be one people. All 
> the
> Gentiles accepted the edict (called his religion in I Maccabees 1:43) as 
> well
> as some of the Jews. The religion called for various forms of idolatry,
> Profanation of the Sabbath, eating unclean foods and a rejection of the 
> Torah.
>
> In our day we are faced with the same two choices as the brave souls who
> stood firm against this evil root. Will we stand with God, Torah and 
> Israel? Or
> will we fall for a man-made religion that says the Torah is abolished, 
> diet
> does  not matter and the Sabbath is not part of YHVH's Way for humanity.
>
> I want people to realize that this date is recorded as an evil day in the
> history of Israel. I also want to stand against such evil teaching as the
> Religion of Antiochus Epiphanes. This Sunday night I will be teaching on 
> Keeping
> the Commandments. You will not want to miss this class.
>
>
>
>
> Ross K.  Nichols
> _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/)
>
>
> **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
> favorite sites in one place.  Try it now.
> (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:32:45 +0000
> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Cute Shabbat Song
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Message-ID:
> <121220080732.16597.4942139D000CCCAE000040D522230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C at att.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Most excellent!
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
>
> -------------- Original message from "Hanoch Young" 
> <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 
>
>
> A cute song for Shabbat....
> Click here: YouTube - Shabbat Shalom Megamix
>
> Shabbat Shalom,
>          Hanoch
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 04:44:43 -0800
> From: "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Dialogue] For those looking to Netanyahu & Likud....
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Message-ID:
> <855590370812120444v6f745008r238043c0689c2f74 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Anyone who thinks that Netanyahu is a nationalist, please read the 
> following
> article.  He's a politician, not a leader.  I've highlighted some sections
> in red.  Be warned...and note, Feiglin has been shifted down more then 10
> slots, he's no longer #2; despite the votes in his favor.
>
>  Shabbat Shalom,
>            *Hanoch*
> Netanyahu Continues War Against Feiglin Kislev 14, 5769, 11 December 08
> 06:03
> by by Hillel Fendel
>
> (IsraelNN.com) Likud Chairman and Prime Ministerial candidate Binyamin
> Netanyahu
> has to choose between mollifying the international community regarding 
> Moshe
> Feiglin, and his own party supporters - and he is choosing the former.
>
> Though Feiglin made a strong showing in the party primaries earlier this
> week - he was voted into the 20th slot on the Likud list of Knesset
> candidates for the upcoming national elections - Netanyahu is showing no
> signs of coming towards him or his supporters.  Feiglin was not even
> invited, until an hour before the event, to a gathering for new future
> Knesset Members in Likud headquarters on Thursday afternoon.
>
> In addition, it was reported in Haaretz - though nowhere else - that
> Netanyahu had reassured "confidantes" that Feiglin need not be taken
> seriously.  The Likud will not end up losing votes because of Feiglin, he
> reportedly said, and "the entire faction is with me. They all called today
> and expressed their support. Feiglin will fade away very quickly."
>
> "They can blow it up more and more, but even this lemon doesn't have much
> juice left in it," Netanyahu was quoted as saying.
>
> Netanyahu also met on Thursday with 26 European Union ambassadors, and
> sought to allay fears that what is perceived as his new "right-wing" Likud
> Knesset faction will sabotage the "peace process."  He told them that he
> would continue negotiations with both the Palestinian Authority and Syria,
> but slightly differently.  He said he does not accept Foreign Minister 
> Tzipi
> Livni's position of "all or nothing," meaning that nothing can be 
> finalized
> until all the issues - including Jerusalem and the refugees - are 
> finalized.
> He did not spell out his own position, however.%ad%
>
> Regarding Syria, he said he favors dialogue with Damascus, but that Israel
> must remain on the Golan Heights. Again, he did not specify how much of 
> the
> Golan must remain Israeli.
>
> Netanyahu's remarks come as the Bayit Yehudi (Jewish Home) and Yisrael
> Beiteinu (Israel Our Home) parties - the Likud's rivals in the contest for
> support from the nationalist sector - are choosing their own candidates 
> for
> the upcoming election.  If Netanyahu insists on distancing himself from
> Feiglin and the pro-Golan and pro-Yesha policies that he represents, many
> nationalist voters are liable to leave the Likud in favor of more
> nationalist parties.
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 8, Issue 33
> ***************************************
> 


From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 14:38:01 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:38:01 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] More democracry in action in Israel...
Message-ID: <855590370812121238w27884baemf3fb8b03f1c1e350@mail.gmail.com>

This is an election promo for Rav Kahane's 'Kach' ('Thus') Party, for the
1988 Israeli elections.  When it was projected in the polls that he was
going to get 12 seats in the Keneset, he was banned from running.  Israeli
democracy at work...
               *  Hanoch            * *Click here: YouTube - 1988 Kach
Election Promo Part
III*<http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zsM2WU25Ucs&feature=related>
* *
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Dec 13 20:39:14 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:39:14 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah]
Message-ID: <494471D2.6000605@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Dec 13 20:40:04 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:40:04 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "The Exodus Conspiracy" and other experiences in
	Israel]
Message-ID: <49447204.3060004@westnet.com.au>

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec 13 21:14:32 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:14:32 -0800
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "The Exodus Conspiracy" and other experiences in
	Israel]
In-Reply-To: <49447204.3060004@westnet.com.au>
References: <49447204.3060004@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <855590370812131914r7799e08amd165e1b8e09b0d8a@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Joe,

   Shavua tov, hope you had a restful and rejuvenating Shabbat.  I saw the
memorial you posted for Rav Kahane, toda - it was really very touching.

     Standing at his gravesite is such a sobering experience...and I feel
like I never, ever accomplished any of the things that he hoped that I, and
the others on that leadership training program would do.

   His son Binyamin and daughter-in-law Talia, HY"D (May G-d avenge their
blood) are buried a few feet away.  They were assassinated during the Oslo
War...ambushed in Shomron (Samaria).

    When you really think of everything that Rav Kahane was teaching, we
could have spared the Jewish people (and the world!) such suffering, had we
only listened, and acted...

     In terms of the WBZ, or any other organization - linking with the Likud
will not provide the answer for Ephramites who want to make Aliyah to
Israel.  At the major dinner (and it was FANCY - like a wedding!), there
were several politicos from the Likud who spoke (most in Hebrew), and the
English *paraphrasing *of what they actually said didn't give a complete
picture to the Ephramites in attendance.

    Other the the Likud functionaries there, I was the only person who
understood their speeches.  Yes, they appreciated the support they had
received, but they addressed the crowd as if they were Evangelical
Christians.  They used that term several times.

     They didn't view them as "Ephramites" - the long-lost cousins of the
Jewish people.  Each group thought they could use the other one...and that's
the lingering feeling that I walked away with.

     But as you said, we will see - although, I don't believe there will be
anything to actually 'see.'  It's that lack of anything to 'see' that will
answer many questions...

      The movie - yeah, very interesting, it can only help those who don't
believe in the Biblical Exodus.

       Always great hearing from you, mate!

       B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
             *  Hanoch
*
2008/12/13 Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>

> *Shavua Tov Hanoch,
>
> Todah rabbah for passing on some of your experiences in Eretz h'Chodesh and
> especially the photograph with Kyra.
>
> What a gut wrenching episode you encountered on Har h'Bayit and the
> extraordinary exclusion of open prayer.
> This insanity will come to end soon with the arrival of Mashiach......
> B'esrat HaShem.
>
> While you were away I posted on the list the 18th anniversary memorial for
> the passing away of Rabbi Meir Kahane, of blessed memory. I am sure that you
> experienced a wave of emotions during that solemn moment.
>
> I am not willing to share my personal views on the WBZ organization at this
> point apart from saying that I too am not pleased. I have deep reservations.
> Only time will tell as the picture unfolds.
>
> Lastly todah for passing on "The Exodus Conspiracy" I am looking forward
> with keen interest to the release of this movie.
> Not that we disbelieve, but for the impact it will have on the unbelieving
> world of skeptics and the scientific society.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> *
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec 13 21:31:24 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:31:24 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Lost Jews, then Lost Ephraim?
Message-ID: <855590370812131931h36073487qc33a7f447363e7c@mail.gmail.com>

Shavua tov L'Kulchem,

    Following is an article by Michael Freund (www.shavei.org ), with his
comments preceding it.  My point is fairly straight forward: If a real
interest in reaching out to 'Lost Jews' starts to grow, how much longer will
it take to build an interest in 'Lost Ephraim?'  Not too long....
        *  Hanoch*
**

A recent genetic study revealed that one out of every five Spaniards &
Portuguese - more than 10 million people! - are of Jewish descent.
This is the biological equivalent of the *pintele Yid*, the eternal and
unbreakable Jewish spark that can never be extinguished.
As I argue in the column below from the Jerusalem Post, if Israel and the
Jewish people undertake a concerted outreach effort toward our genetic
brethren in Iberia, it could have a profound impact in a variety of fields,
ranging from anti-Semitism in Europe to the future of Jewish demography.

If just 5% or even 10% of Spanish and Portuguese descendants of Jews were to
return to Judaism, it would mean an additional 500,000 to 1 million Jews in
the world.



thanks,



Michael Freund




http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728128905&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull



The Jerusalem Post, December 10, 2008



*The genetic "Pintele Yid" in Iberia*

By Michael Freund



More than five centuries after the expulsion and forced conversion of
Spanish and Portuguese Jewry, the results of a new genetic study might just
spur a return of historic proportions to Israel and the Jewish people.

In a paper published in the latest issue of the *American Journal of Human
Genetics*, a team of biologists dropped a DNA bombshell, declaring that 20%
of the population of Iberia has Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

Since the combined populations of Spain and Portugal exceed 50 million, that
means more than 10 million Spaniards and Portuguese are descendants of Jews.


These are not the wild-eyed speculations of a newspaper columnist, but
rather cold, hard results straight out of a petri dish in a laboratory.

The study, led by Mark Jobling of the University of Leicester in England and
Francesc Calafell of the Pompeu Fabra University in Barcelona, analyzed the
Y chromosomes of Sephardim in communities where Jews had migrated after the
expulsion from Spain in 1492. Their chromosomal signatures were then
compared with the Y chromosomes of more than 1,000 men living throughout
Spain and Portugal.

Since the Y chromosome is passed from father to son, the geneticists were
able to measure the two groups up against each other, leading to the
remarkable finding that one-fifth of Iberians are of Jewish descent.

THIS RESULT underlines the extent to which our ancestors suffered so long
ago in Spain and Portugal.

>From the historical record, we know that as early as 1391, a century before
the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, widespread anti-Semitic pogroms swept
across the country, leaving thousands dead and many communities devastated.

In the decades that followed, there were waves of forced conversions as part
of an increasingly hostile and dangerous environment for Jews. This reached
a climax in 1492, when King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella gave Spain's
remaining Jews a dire choice: convert or leave forever.

Large numbers chose exile. American historian Howard Morley Sachar has
estimated the number of Spain's Jewish exiles at around 100,000, while
Hebrew University's Haim Beinart has put the total at 200,000. Others have
spoken of even more.

But untold numbers of forcibly converted Jews, as well as those who
voluntarily underwent baptism, remained.

THESE INCLUDE, of course, the *Anousim* (Hebrew for "those who were
coerced"), many of whom bravely continued to cling to Jewish practice,
covertly passing down their heritage from generation to generation. In
recent years, a growing number of Anousim from across Europe, South America
and parts of the US have begun to return to Israel and the Jewish people.

But what makes the findings of the genetic study so important is that they
attest to the Spanish monarchs' terrible success in subjugating their Jewish
subjects and compelling the bulk of those forced to convert to eventually
assimilate into the Catholic majority.

For centuries thereafter, the ruthless arm of the Inquisition hunted down
and killed suspected "Judaizers" or "secret Jews," ultimately forcing many
to abandon the faith to which they had remained so heroically, and secretly,
loyal. According to the late historian Cecil Roth, the Inquisition's
henchmen murdered more than 30,000 "secret Jews." Some were burned alive in
front of cheering crowds, while countless others were condemned for
preserving Jewish practices.

It is no wonder, then, that many of them eventually succumbed to despair and
seemingly disappeared as Jews.

Until now, that is.

THE FINDING that 20% of the population of Iberia is descended from Jews will
likely take Spain and Portugal by storm.

The results, as *The New York Times* put it last Friday, "provide new and
explicit evidence of the mass conversions of Sephardic Jews" which took
place over 500 years ago on Spanish and Portuguese soil.

It is the biological equivalent of the *pintele Yid*, the eternal and
unbreakable Jewish spark that can never be extinguished.

Indeed, it is as if a large mirror were suddenly being held up in front of
every Spanish and Portuguese person, forcing them to look at themselves and
see the reality of their national, and individual, history.

But even more compelling than what it says about the past is what it might
just say about the future. If Israel and the Jewish people undertake a
concerted outreach effort toward our genetic brethren in Iberia, it could
have a profound impact in a variety of fields, ranging from anti-Semitism in
Europe to the future of Jewish demography.

Imagine if just 5% or even 10% of Spanish and Portuguese descendants of Jews
were to return to Judaism. It would mean an additional 500,000 to 1 million
Jews in the world.

And even if many or most choose not to return, it still behooves us to reach
out to them. The very fact that such large numbers of Spaniards and
Portuguese have Jewish ancestry could have a significant impact on their
attitudes toward Jews and Israel, possibly dampening their anti-Semitism and
anti-Israel slant.

For when someone discovers they are of Jewish descent, it is likely to
create a greater sense of kinship for Jewish causes. Hence, we should seek
to promote and cultivate their affinity for Israel and the Jewish people.

Moreover, I believe we have a historical responsibility to reach out to the
descendants of the victims of the forced conversions and the Inquisition,
and to facilitate their return.

Through no fault of their own, their ancestors were cruelly taken from us.
Centuries ago, the Catholic Church devoted enormous resources to tearing
them away from the Jewish people, and it nearly succeeded.

Our task now should be to show the same level of determination to welcome
them back into our midst.

------------------------

*The writer is the founder and chairman of Shavei Israel (www.shavei.org),
which assists Anousim in Spain, Portugal and South America to return to the
Jewish people.*
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec 13 21:49:26 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:49:26 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] An article to think about
Message-ID: <855590370812131949j5f2f15b0wa2d5ee603bb313e2@mail.gmail.com>

VERY interesting...from Rav Lazer Brody
           *  Hanoch*

      [image: The Gateskeeper]
By: Rabbi Lazer
Brody<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=rabbi+lazer+brody&type=1&fullType=authors&language=English>
  [image: Email This Article]  [image: Print version]

*The editorial page of Breslev Israel's English website*
Mr. Obama has decided to keep Robert
Gates<http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-11-30-gates_N.htm>as
Defense Secretary of the United States. Is there anything dramatic
that
be expected of the "Gateskeeper"? Are the dreamers substantiated in
believing that the President-elect will lead America's economy and defense
establishment to salvation? No way ? that's not part of what seems to be
Hashem's script for the *Geula*, the full redemption of our people and the
coming of Moshiach, speedily and in our days, amen.

The USA - by Robert Gates' own admission - is not winning the
war<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6209356.stm>in Iraq. Objective
analysts <http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/23/opinion/edafghan.php> are
saying that America is losing ground fast in Afghanistan. That's an
understatement. Reliable sources say that the level of US troops there has
quadrupled under the noses of the folks asleep back home on the cushy
continent. The world's richest and most technologically sophisticated
military machine has failed to capture Sheikh Osama Bin Ladin after more
than a 7-year global full-court press. Mumbai was a painful reminder to us
that the supposed US war against terror is a paper tiger. And, if the USA is
paper, then the Israel's deterrence - failure to bring Gilad Shalit home and
to stop terrorist-missile harassment of the south of Israel ? is flimsier
than an onion skin.

The capture of Sadaam Hussein was no big score, on a spiritual level. Sadaam
was the lowest form of immorality, on a level with rats like Arafat and his
crooked successors. Today's ballgame is different and much stickier: America
is no longer up against the secular Sadaam, but against Jihadi Islams with a
kamakaze-type uncompromising ideology. Things don't look good for Uncle Sam
by the banks of the Babylon.

On one side, you have the capital of global materialism and liberality -
with all its moral decay - namely, the USA and such puppets as the current
Israeli government (which represents neither the Jewish people nor the
Torah) and the secular PA. The common denominator between the three are
material lusts and mega corruption. Led by Bush, Condi, the CFR, and their
cronies, this is *Gog. *

 The opponent on the other side is the Holy War team of Islam, led by
Achmedinejad waving the flag of *jihad* and *sharia*. He pulls the strings
of Nasrulla and the Hizbolla, of Syria, of the Hamas in, Gaza,and now of
Pakistan. He happily fuels the fires in neighboring Iraq, and gives the
Taliban in Afghanistan all the help it needs. Some believe that by backing Bin
Laden<http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/south-asia/iran-helped-al-qaeda-in-terrorist-attacks-reveals-letter_100122844.html>,
Achmedinejad shares responsibility for Mumbai, despite his lip
service<http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-11/27/content_10423084.htm>to
the contrary. He's giving Gog Bush and the USA bloody noses and black
eyes all over the place. He is *Magog*, very spiritual, but from the *Sitra
Achra*, the dark side.



Both Gog and Magog want to take Jerusalem and the Holy Kotel and Temple
Mount from the hands of the faithful. In effect, the whole world is against
the tiny core of committed Jews in Jerusalem, Tzfat, Bnai Brak, Ashdod,
Beitar, Kiryat Sefer, Bet Shemesh, Hevron, and elsewhere in the Holy Land.
This is the super extreme test of faith that Rebbe Nachman warned us of (*see
Rebbe Nachman's Discourses, 35 and 220), the whole world against a handful
of the faithful. Therefore, it's no surprise that the current Israeli regime
(subservient to Gog) is trying to dismantle Jewish settlements and
relinquish Jerusalem. Don't let this upset you and don't waste your time
demonstrating. The only way to fight Gog is by strengthening our faith.*

We who cling to Hashem and to His Torah in the Land of Israel are like a
little chick hiding under the table while the wolves go at each other's
throats. In the coming months, there'll be lots of noise and turmoil all
around us. When the smoke clears, we'll crawl out from our hiding places
with our Gemaras and Likutei Moharan in hand, and welcome the shining
countenance of Moshiach and a new dawn. This is a promise from our sages for
generations.

Our non-Jewish friends ask, "What about us?" If you accept Hashem with all
your heart, and commit to the Seven Noahide
commandments<http://www.noahide.org/>(which are a cinch), you're home
free, right there with us on the finish
line. Welcome aboard wherever you are.

What can you do to help Israel, the Jewish people, and yourself? Strengthen
your emuna, your pure and steadfast faith in Hashem. That's the whole
battle, says Rebbe Nachman. The day is fast coming when money and material
amenities will turn into dust. Why devote your life to accumulating dust?
Come home to Hashem. You don't know the way? We here at Breslev Israel are
happy to extend a helping hand - that's what Breslever Chassidim all about.


(We invite you to visit Rabbi Lazer Brody's award-winning daily web journal,
"Lazer Beams <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/>")

   Read more about
Editorials<http://www.breslev.co.il/subcategories/editorials.aspx?category=213&pageid=1&language=english>

   See More Articles By Rabbi Lazer
Brody<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=rabbi+lazer+brody&type=1&fullType=authors&language=English>
       If you would like to receive other related articles or
Breslev.co.ilfeatures via e-mail, please enter your e-mail address
here:
      Subscribe for
Free<javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$ContentPlaceHolder1$hplSubscribeHere','')>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec 13 21:57:08 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:57:08 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "Where's the Deterrence?" by Rav Lazer Brody
Message-ID: <855590370812131957q57abc2c0gc23bfc85be6fce55@mail.gmail.com>

    Home <http://www.breslev.co.il/default.aspx?language=english>Editorials<http://www.breslev.co.il/subcategories/editorials.aspx?category=213&pageid=1&language=english>Where's
the Deterrence?     [image: Where's the Deterrence?]
By: Rabbi Lazer
Brody<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=rabbi+lazer+brody&type=1&fullType=authors&language=English>
  [image: Email This Article]  [image: Print version]

*The editorial page of Breslev Israel's English website*


Funny, but the nations of the world should be afraid of us. Israel's elected
leadership has admitted that it possesses a nuclear arsenal. The news of its
high-tech weapons of destruction are constantly and boastfully leaked to the
press. Yet, something has badly backfired. Not only have the nations of the
world lost their fear of Israel, but now openly scoff in her face. A photo
of a lone eleven year-old urchin from Jenin charging a Merkava tank with a
rock in his hand has become the symbol of the Palestinian resistance
movements.

If that's not enough, let's glance at the headlines from the last ten days
alone:

* Israel was afraid of world opinion and allowed the "Free Gaza" ships to
penetrate its sea blockade and reach Gaza.

* Iran's Chief of Staff declared that he no longer worries about an Israeli
attack, because Israel is far too weak to defend itself against an Iranian
reprisal.

* All of Europe, the UK, the USA, and even China lodged stern protests
against Russian aggression in Georgia, but Israel is afraid to utter a
sound.

* For two years already, Syria has been smuggling massive amounts of arms
into Lebanon and the hands of the Hizbolla in flagrant violation of UN
Resolution 1701. Not only does the Israeli government fail to react, but
they offer the Syrians the entire Golan Heights.

* Israel releases two hundred terrorists from prison, many with Jewish blood
on their hands, while Gilead Shalit continues to wither away in Gazan
captivity. Meanwhile, the young guard of Hamas militants takes over the
Hamas Shura (advisory) council, and raises the price for Shalit's release.

* The Knesset's Committee of Foreign Affairs and Defense officially told the
media that every inch of Israel from Dan to Eilat is now targeted by an Arab
missile.

* The Israeli government quietly sanctioned the building of a few new
apartments in Beitar, Brachtfeld, and other towns in Judea and Samaria as a
tiny relief to our critical housing shortage, but one scream by the
soon-to-be jobless American Secretary of State was enough to freeze all
building.

What's happening? Where's our power of deterrence?

Some commentators pin the blame on Ehud Barak's unilateral withdrawal from
South Lebanon when he was Prime Minister eight years ago. Others accuse Arik
Sharon's disengagement from Jewish Gaza three years ago as the reason for
our loss of deterrence. Many cite Olmert's utter failure against Nasralla
and the Hizbolla as the reason for our weakling image. These are all
symptoms of the sickness, but not its root cause.

Any thinking individual with any semblance of spiritual awareness must ask
himself not only where has our power of deterrence disappeared to, but how
do we regain it?

The Torah says emphatically (Devorim 28:10), "And the nations of the earth
shall see that The Name of Hashem is upon you and they shall fear you."
Rebbe Pinchas the "Haflaa" explains (in his elaboration on tractate Ketubot
77b) that when The Ineffable Name is reflected from a person's forehead,
evil forces flee from him. This helps us understand why Hashem had to place
a letter of His Holy Name on Cain's forehead, because Cain blemished The
Holy Name when he killed Abel, for transgressions of Torah erase the letters
of Hashem's name that should be reflecting from a person's forehead.

As soon as The Holy Name is blemished, it no longer illuminates. When The
Holy Name fails to illuminate from a person's countenance, then that person
loses his power of deterrence against man and animals alike.

Rabbi Zev Wolf of Zhitomer, author of "Or HaMeir" and one of the leading
pupils of the legendary Maggid of Mezheritch, explains the Zohar's teaching
(Book II:96b), that The Name of Hashem guards the person who is careful to
preserve The Holy Name that reflects from his forehead. As such, the nations
of the earth see a tzaddik with a holy countenance that reflects The Divine
Countenance. King David referred to this phenomenon when he said (Psalms
42:12), "The salvation of my countenance and my G-d." King David knew that
his rescue from any and all calamity was dependant on the shining image of
Hashem's Holy Name reflecting from his forehead. This image is what makes
the nations of the earth shudder in fear.

Correspondingly, Hashem promises to give us the Holy Land and to grant us
victory over our enemies on one condition, namely, that we maintain the
holiness of our countenance. That way, our foreheads reflect His Holy Name
and our enemies cower.

Rabbenu Bahiya explains the secret of deterrence in an allegorical fashion:
the servant of a government minister doesn't have the status of a king's
servant. In fact, the king's servant walks in and out of the king's chambers
freely, and all the ministers are afraid of slighting the king's servant,
lest they invoke the king's wrath. So, when the servant carries the name of
the king and is known as "the king's servant," even the ministers fear him.

The Jewish People live according to a special set of spiritual dynamics that
override natural variables. No armaments or physical might can gain us the
power of deterrence. Our foreheads must reflect Hashem's Holy Name for our
enemies to fear us. That behooves us to strengthen our emuna and our
practical observance of the Torah and its laws with no compromises. There's
no other way, for our national security depends on it.

Rebbe Nachman of Breslev emphasizes that it's not enough for our enemies to
fear us ? we have to believe in ourselves. Believing in ourselves means that
we believe that our prayers and hitbodedut have the capability to transcend
nature and natural limitations, and to bring about salvations.

Moshiach will fight all his battles with prayer (see Likutei Moharan I:2).
He'll also show us what real power of deterrence is, for the nations of the
world will fall at his feet without his firing a single shot. May we see him
conquer the world with our own eyes, speedily and in our days, amen!


(We invite you to visit Rabbi Lazer Brody's award-winning daily web journal,
"Lazer Beams <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/>")

   Read more about
Editorials<http://www.breslev.co.il/subcategories/editorials.aspx?category=213&pageid=1&language=english>

   See More Articles By Rabbi Lazer
Brody<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=rabbi+lazer+brody&type=1&fullType=authors&language=English>
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sun Dec 14 01:17:15 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 02:17:15 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul
Message-ID: <c5b.370d255e.36760cfb@aol.com>

Just a reminder that Sunday Shul is at 6:00 PM CST, Sunday Evening. I  will 
be teaching my 4th class on Following the Way of YHVH - the 7th in my  series 
based upon the book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith by James Tabor.
 
I am REALLY excited about this class. I intend to correct some  
misinformation related to the importance of keeping the commandments for those  who seek to 
follow the way.
 
As I studied in preparation for this week's class I realized that this  
week's teaching is essential to the following week's class. On the 21st I will  be 
teaching on Hanukkah. I want to encourage everyone to begin to prepare  
themselves for the "Feast of Dedication". Should we not all use this special  season 
to dedicate our lives to God and His ways? 
 
I hope that many of you can join me in the Synagogue Without Walls for my  
weekly teaching.
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 14 08:12:21 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:12:21 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah]
In-Reply-To: <494471D2.6000605@westnet.com.au>
References: <494471D2.6000605@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <27EAA143-6683-4C8C-BEE6-0E632CFE90F9@earthlink.net>

Thanks for these good thoughts Joseph. I do indeed appreciate them and  
there is much to study.

James


On Dec 13, 2008, at 9:39 PM, Joe Indomenico wrote:

> Shavua Tov James,
>
> I too had a crammed day last Friday. Now after some much needed  
> Shabbat rest I would like to respond to some of your interesting and  
> pertinent points that you raised in your reply.
>
> Firstly I did not see them as a challenge but as you said , in true  
> rabbinic fashion, the strength lies in the varying opinions albeit  
> often contradictory . So there is always fuel for a good honest  
> discussion for the benefit of deeper understanding.
>
> Being an Architect, I have learned to think both laterally  
> (conceptual design) and linear ( technical detail). These are  
> invaluable tools that are required in the process of problem  
> solving. I have often wondered whether the Master Architect of the  
> Universe has employed these functions in outlining His master plan  
> for creation.
>
> In my design practice the first thoughts that enter my mind are  
> quickly sketched down on butter paper to then  developed further  
> into a master concept plan. This then becomes the blue print for the  
> project. Then come all of the technical details in order that the  
> builder can construct the building. Now whilst I design the  
> structure and the concept does not change , the methods of  
> construction may vary pending on budget, availability of materials,  
> builder input and unforeseen site conditions.
> I must stress that the concept plan and intent does not change.
> This might be a puny analogy  compared to the Creator of Heaven and  
> Earth where he is the Architect and Builder and One of perfection,  
> but all the same there are clear parallels. His nation are the  
> subcontractors that are employed on the building site to construct  
> His blue print. The prophets are sent as His employed supervising  
> agents to ensure that the plan is followed in all its details. They  
> have the authority to give site instructions to condemn, rectify,  
> and address all defects.
> The subcontractors will address and rectify over and over again  
> until the agent is satisfied that the integrity of the design has  
> not been compromised. As an architect I can confirm that some  
> rectifications can be undertaken up to six times until the same  
> fault is finally remedied.
>
> So the design does not change but the technical details may evolve  
> as the construction proceeds.
>
> Another analogy that I would like to bring up is the Court of Law.  
> It has often amazed me that in passing judgment , the Judge will   
> look in most cases for legal precedence. In fact this is the  
> backbone of our legal system that strides for  equitable consistency  
> in our courts of law. It may not work out at times but it is still  
> the intent.
>
> The point that I am making is that when I search the scriptures I am  
> always looking for the design concept and the precedence. They way  
> they work out may vary but the intent or the spirit never changes  
> one iota.
>
> I cannot help being a pattern man.
>
> For example the heavenly temple and the earthly temple. I look for  
> spiritual reality when it says that the latter is fashioned /  
> patterned on the former. Do they look similar? I look for the  
> pattern not the shape.
>
> Man was created in the image of HaShem. Do they look similar?I look  
> for the pattern not the shape.
>
> Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef said " For the coming of Ben Adam will be  
> just like the days of Noach etc"
> Does that mean that there is going to be a flood or is he expressing  
> the similar pattern.
>
> In Yirmiyahu (Jeremiah ) chap 31 there is reference to the New  
> Covenant.
> Does this imply that the old is dying out ?
> Does this imply that the church becomes the beneficiary ?
> As you would know, James the answer, is quite obvious.
> The benefactor  is HaShem.
> The beneficiary is Beit Yisrael and Beit Yehuda.
> The gift is Torah.
> The method of delivery changes from the finger on tablets of stone  
> to Ruach upon the heart.
> So whilst the technical detail changes the concept master plan does  
> not change.
>
> In fact the sages state that the original Torah Atzilut( eminence)  
> was rejected by Am Yisrael due to the sin of the golden calf and was  
> smashed by Moshe. The second Torah Beriah( remaking) was given to  
> Moshe to rectify the sin of the golden calf. If you read carefully  
> you will see that whilst the finger of HaShem wrote on the first  
> tablets , HaShem dictated to Moshe and Moshe wrote the second tablets.
> ??  ????????? ?????? ???-??????,  
> ??????-???? ???-???????????  
> ????????:  ???? ???-???? ???????????  
> ????????, ????????? ??????? ???????-- 
> ?????-??????????.	27 And the LORD said unto Moses:  
> 'Write thou these words, for after the tenor of these words I have  
> made a covenant with thee and with Israel.'
> ??  ???????-???? ???-??????,  
> ??????????? ???? ?????????????  
> ???????--????? ??? ?????, ??????? ???  
> ??????; ??????????? ???-????????, ???  
> ???????? ?????????--????????,  
> ???????????.	28 And he was there with the LORD forty days  
> and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he  
> wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten words.
> ??  ???????, ???????? ?????? ?????  
> ??????, ???????? ????? ??????? ??????- 
> ??????, ??????????? ???-?????;  
> ???????? ???-?????, ???? ????? ????  
> ???????--??????????? ??????.	29 And it came  
> to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables  
> of the testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount,  
> that Moses knew not that the skin of his face sent forth beams while  
> He talked with him.
>  Ex 34 v 27-29
>
> So the New Covenant was not new at all. But was hidden from them  
> because they broke the covenant whilst HaShem was a husband to them  
> as it says in Yirmeyahu chap 31.
>
> So when we read in Yirmeyahu chap 7
>
> ??  ???? ????? ?????? ????????,  
> ??????? ??????????:  ???????????  
> ????? ???-??????????, ?????????  
> ??????.	21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Add  
> your burnt-offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat ye flesh.
> ??  ???? ???-??????????? ???- 
> ???????????, ????? ??????????,  
> ??????? ????? (?????????) ??????,  
> ??????? ?????????--???-????????  
> ??????, ???????.	22 For I spoke not unto your fathers,  
> nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of  
> Egypt, concerning burnt-offerings or sacrifices;
> ??  ???? ???-???-???????? ??????  
> ????????? ?????? ??????, ????????  
> ????????--?????????? ????? ?????????,  
> ???????? ????????-??? ?????;  
> ????????????, ??????-?????????  
> ?????? ???????? ???????, ???????,  
> ?????? ?????.	23 but this thing I commanded them, saying:  
> 'Hearken unto My voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be My  
> people; and walk ye in all the way that I command you, that it may  
> be well with you.'
> This is the Torah Atzilut ,the original Torah ,the New Covenant that  
> the people rejected because their stony hearts were not to the level  
> of understanding and acceptance. A new heart is required  
> ( rectification of the defects)
>
> This gives us some background into understanding a little clearer  
> what is meant by HaShem when He says that he is going to do  
> something "new" which really is not.
>
> Isaiah Chapter 48
>
> ?  ????????-???? ?????-???????,  
> ????????????? ??????? ??????????,  
> ???????? ????????, ???????;  
> ??????????????? ??????? ??????,  
> ?????????? ?????????? ???????????-- 
> ??? ???????, ????? ?????????.	1 Hear ye this,  
> O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and are come  
> forth out of the fountain of Judah; who swear by the name of the  
> LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor  
> in righteousness.
> ?  ????-?????? ????????? ?????????,  
> ?????-??????? ?????????? ?????????:   
> ?????? ????????, ??????.  {?}	2 For they call  
> themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of  
> Israel, the LORD of hosts is His name. {S}
> ?  ???????????? ????? ???????????,  
> ???????? ??????? ?????????????;  
> ???????? ?????????, ???????????.	3 I have  
> declared the former things from of old; yea, they went forth out of  
> My mouth, and I announced them; suddenly I did them, and they came  
> to pass.
> ?  ???????????, ???? ?????? ??????;  
> ?????? ???????? ?????????,  
> ?????????? ?????????.	4 Because I knew that thou  
> art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;
> ?  ????????? ???? ?????, ????????  
> ??????? ???????????????--????- 
> ??????? ???????? ??????, ?????????  
> ?????????? ??????.	5 Therefore I have declared it to  
> thee from of old; before it came to pass I announced it to thee;  
> lest thou shouldest say: 'Mine idol hath done them, and my graven  
> image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.'
> ?  ?????????? ????? ????????,  
> ???????? ?????? ?????????:   
> ??????????????? ????????? ????????,  
> ?????????? ????? ??????????.	6 Thou hast  
> heard, see, all this; and ye, will ye not declare it? I have  
> announced unto thee new things from this time, even hidden things,  
> which thou hast not known.
> ?  ?????? ????????? ????? ?????,  
> ?????????-???? ????? ???????????-- 
> ????-???????, ?????? ???????????.	7 They  
> are created now, and not from of old, and before this day thou  
> heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say: 'Behold, I knew them.'
> ?  ???? ???-??????????, ???? ???  
> ?????????--????, ????? ???-????????  
> ????????:  ???? ?????????? ???????  
> ??????????, ????????? ???????? ?????  
> ????.	8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from  
> of old thine ear was not opened; for I knew that thou wouldest deal  
> very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
> ?  ??????? ?????? ????????? ??????,  
> ???????????? ???????-????-- 
> ??????????, ???????????.	9 For My name's sake  
> will I defer Mine anger, and for My praise will I refrain for thee,  
> that I cut thee not off.
> ?  ?????? ????????????, ????? ???????;  
> ?????????????, ??????? ?????.	10 Behold, I  
> have refined thee, but not as silver; I have tried thee in the  
> furnace of affliction.
> ??  ????????? ????????? ????????,  
> ???? ????? ?????; ??????????, ???????  
> ???-??????.  {?}	11 For Mine own sake, for Mine own sake,  
> will I do it; for how should it be profaned? And My glory will I not  
> give to another. {P}
> Verse 11 underscores my previous post where I quoted Ezekiel chap 36.
>
> In summing up, James ,I do not proclaim to be a prophet and do not  
> claim to know the future. I am just a humble man that used to the  
> best of his ability the G-d given talent to think laterally and  
> linearly and understand the physical world and its relationship to  
> the spiritual realty of HaShem's Word.
>
> The Rabbis state that the final redemption will be similar in many  
> aspects to the redemption from Egypt.
> The technical details might change but the master concept design  
> remains unaltered.
> This time the ratification of the TORAH ATZILUT , THE TORAH OF  
> EMINENCE, THE "NEW / ORIGINAL" COVENANT will be sealed by an act of  
> Divine circumcision of the heart after the heart of stone will be  
> removed.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
>
>
>
>
> From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
> Date: December 11, 2008 10:37:21 AM EST
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: Down With Hanukah
> Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
>
> Thanks Joe,
>
> Just a few quick observations at the head of a crammed day here...
>
> I am glad that neither of us are focusing on Xtn theology here as  
> those perspectives truly can skewer things when it comes to taking a  
> look at Torah and Prophets in their Hebraic contexts.
>
> Although I have to agree with you that there have been repetitions  
> and cycles in the history of humankind, as well as the history of  
> Israel, I think it remains the case that even some of the remarkable  
> dates that are repeated (i.e., fall of both Temples around the 9th  
> of Av), if you look at the circumstances, in this case the  
> Babylonian and Roman destructions, the parallels, causes, and  
> results, are quite different. I am all ears to gaining what can be  
> gained from the Rabbinic thinking on these matters but I think we  
> both realize the Gemara and Chazon, especially on these matters,  
> preserves lots of alternative, even contradictory views (see  
> Sanhedrin 98 for a start). This is in fact part of its strength. The  
> same is true of texts and interpretation preserved around the late  
> 2nd Temple period. Various pious souls struggled to make sense of  
> the prophetic tradition, especially the book of Daniel, but with  
> varying results. In fact, few got it all right.
>
> I want to learn from the past, but I do not think in any way these  
> patterns from the time of Moses and Joshua need be repeated, and the  
> prophets actually pinpoint areas where the coming Exodus will be  
> quite different, so much so the first will not even be recalled.  
> Please don't take these comments as a challenge but as a supplement  
> to what you have written.
>
> "For YHVH is creating a new thing on earth: The Woman sets out to  
> find her Strong One..." Jeremiah 31:22, and context, plus Isa 54.  
> Hosea 2-3 is also quite important in this regard, and the patterns  
> there absolutely break out in terms of the past, at least as I  
> understand things...
>
> This of course has to do with the tribes and Rachel's children, see  
> the context...
>
> Thanks for all your wisdom,
>
> Best,
>
> James
>
>
> On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Patty wrote:
>
>> Shalom Joe,
>>
>> While history does indeed repeat itself, I don?t think it is  
>> ?destined? to do so. I see the prophecies as possible outcomes  
>> that depend on the behavior of people who have an interactive  
>> relationship with their Creator. Consider how Moses ?changed? G- 
>> d?s mind. History, if you will, dealt Israel a fatal blow due to  
>> their behavior, yet Moses interceded on their behalf and recalled  
>> the Promise.
>>
>> Love & Blessings,
>> Patty
>>
>> From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
>> ]On Behalf OfJoe Indomenico
>> Sent:Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:22 AM
>> To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> Subject:[Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Down With Hanukah]]
>>
>> Shalom James,
>>
>> always nice to hear from you.
>>
>> The Ruach h'Kodesh is always the unifying factor throughout the  
>> prophets of the Tanach as you rightfully pointed out in your  
>> response. To deny this would undermine the unity of HaShem. So it  
>> is not unusual that theoneprophetic voice is often heard throughout  
>> the various prophets.
>>
>> However, as always, I have put forward a Jewish Rabbinic  
>> perspective that I personally subscribe to.
>> As a former Christian I do somewhat have an understanding of my  
>> former theology. Needless to say ,one that I no longer partake of.  
>> Reasons of which I do not wish to discuss in this posting.
>>
>> Having said this, I would like to expand further some of my  
>> statements in order to elucidate my position.
>>
>> We are in the deep jungles of equatorial Borneo. The jungle is  
>> thick with dense lianas and foliage so thick that a human being can  
>> barely squeeze through. This is virgin terrain. The need arises to  
>> cross the valley and reach the distant hill as this is the only  
>> place where a supply helicopter can land in the immediate area. A  
>> volunteer comes forward and sets off to cut a path through the  
>> thick jungle. The going is tedious and dangerous. Eventually he  
>> arrives at the destination. The path is set for future trekkers .  
>> This in no time becomes a visible path for all to take. It would  
>> not make sense after all the effort to cut a new path.
>>
>> What I have just described is another slant on the story of the  
>> Avot ( patriarchs).
>>
>> The story of the fledgling nation of Israel starts with Avraham,  
>> Yitzchak and Yacov.
>> The Rabbis explain that the actions of the Avot set the future path  
>> of the entire nation. Their midot (character traits ) and decisions  
>> will not only affect their lives but shape the future destiny of  
>> their nation.
>>
>> Let me explain. Avraham who the Torah attests as the father of the  
>> faithful, the river crosser, the friend of HaShem accounted as  
>> righteous , when he arrives in the land of Canaan is challenged  
>> with a famine in the land. The first real test in the land of  
>> promise. Where is his emunah ? He proceeds to Egypt, and tells  
>> Pharaoh that Sarah is his sister.
>> This almost identical story is relived by Yitzchak.
>> The Rabbis explain that this story is then lived out by the  
>> enslavement of the children of Yacov. Had Avraham remained in the  
>> land the story of the redemption from Egypt may have had a  
>> different twist. It was ordained by HaShem. Why ?
>> To teach the future generations. The story of the bondage from the  
>> Pharaohs of this world to the redemption and freedom to serve  
>> HaShem in covenant relationship as His people.
>> This story is repeated every year at the Pesach seder , lest we  
>> forget. And this is a direct mitzva of HaShem's Torah.
>>
>> There is also the story of first Avraham and then Yitzchak as being  
>> the well diggers. Once the wells are dug the surrounding people  
>> contest and take these wells. How many times has this story  
>> repeated itself throughout history.
>> This is to teach that the Jews are the ones that dig deep the wells  
>> through their efforts and dedication to bring the hidden living  
>> waters of Torah to the surface only to be challenged and contested  
>> by Christians and Muslims.
>>
>> The Torah and indeed the entire Tanach are gifts from HaShem to  
>> teach us irrespective of which era, time, century, place we live  
>> in. It is the eternal word of HaShem throughout all the  
>> generations. Each generation being asked to glean and take to heart  
>> the lessons outlined in His book of instruction. This is the legacy  
>> of the Har Sinai Revelation that is commanded by HaShem to be  
>> taught to the children and the children's children forever.
>>
>> Now on history repeating itself. There is one ground hog day that  
>> repeats and repeats and repeats.
>> The sin of the spies : Tisha b'Av ( 9th day of the 5th month of Av).
>> On this day :
>> the spies rejected the land
>> the first temple was destroyed
>> the second temple was destroyed
>> the Spanish Inquisition commenced
>> WW1 started
>> the British signed the White Paper
>> This was a day of scattering and exile and only Mashiach can  
>> rectify the sin of the spies and with ahavah he will gather the  
>> dispersed and bring them back to the land.
>>
>> There are many other instances that I would like to give as valid  
>> confirmation of my assertions but time prevents me at this stage  
>> and the post is starting grow long.
>>
>> I will leave you on a positive note.
>> Yehoshua ben Nun ( Efrayim ) and Calev ben Zunefa ( Yehuda) were  
>> the spies with the trust of HaShem and the love of his promise of  
>> the land with Yehoshua leading the Israelites into the land . They  
>> learned from the previous generation that perished in the midbar.
>>
>> THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.
>>
>> If you want to know the future ............... look to the past.
>>
>> Shalom v'Ahavah
>> JOE.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sun Dec 14 11:51:57 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:51:57 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] The Malaysian Connection
Message-ID: <c37.450e6990.3676a1bd@aol.com>

I wanted to send this out to you this morning as a testimony to what God is  
doing in our day. Don't get me wrong, I get excited whenever I meet people 
from  right next door that are interested in finding God and following His 
ways....but  to find people literally around the world....
 
I am thinking that I might begin to hang flags in the synagogue here in St.  
Francisville for every nation that is represented on the web in our new  
Synagogue Without Walls! Wouldn't that be cool?
 
This morning, a person joined the Synagogue Without Walls from Malaysia. I  
was not real sure where Malaysia was so I looked it up. I encourage you to do  
the same. I commented on this person's page and ask him if he was alone. Here 
is  the correspondence.
__________________________________________
 
My comment to him

Shalom and Welcome Cliffy! I am pleased to see you in the synagogue with  us! 
You are the first to sign up from Malaysia. I have to admit that I received  
a geography lesson this morning when I saw where you were from. So, you live 
in  the capital? Are there others around you that are seeking to follow the way 
of  God? I am looking forward to getting to know you better. Shalom and 
welcome! I  like the flag in the photo. I have the same flag flying in the 
Synagogue here in  Louisiana. 
 
His reply
 
Shalom Ross,

thanks for your comment and this work that you are  doing, it's pleasure to 
be here and connect with you. yes, I'm from Kuala  Lumpur, capital city of 
Malaysia, as i have been fellowshipping over the net for  the past years, i always 
need to introduce where my country is, hope one day you  will pay a visit 
here before we all head home to our homeland.

quite  similar to your experience, i also came out from 22years of 
churchianity after  ABBA YHWH opened my eyes to the Hebraic original faith in 2006 while 
i was in  Yisrael. currently there is three of us meeting every Sabbath at my 
home,  although there are few other Messianic groups here, we are mainly 
understand  from the Hebraic and two house perspective.

looking forward to learn from  you more and participate here often.

about the flag, it's our national  flag at the back.

May all shalom to you,
Cliffy. 

________________________________________________
 
Something is happening!
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Dec 14 14:28:24 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:28:24 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] DISENGAGEMENT AND CONSEQUENCES.
Message-ID: <49456C68.80401@westnet.com.au>

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 14:42:38 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:42:38 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] DISENGAGEMENT AND CONSEQUENCES.
In-Reply-To: <49456C68.80401@westnet.com.au>
References: <49456C68.80401@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <855590370812141242s34bf0370s7aa3ca4441b9dd68@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Joe,

     Great post; insightful as always...but, unfortunately, true.  You have
hit on the key issues involved which will ultimately determine if Israel
will be the Torah-true nation that HaShem intended.  Or merely Hebrew
speaking Hellenists, striving to achieve the "culture" of America...The
battles being waged now are the ones that will determine the future course
of Israel.  Ultimately, we will prevail, but why should we continue to
suffer so bitterly due to our lack of leadership?

    Tshuva NOW...
                 *  Hanoch
*
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

> *Shalom Chaverim,
>
> I recently wrote on the consequences of the post 1967 actions in the Holy
> Land by the political elite of Israel.
> In the evaluation I made reference to the Torah and the pattern that set
> the precedence , ie "the sin of the spies.
>
> I am posting some articles that were published just prior to the
> disengagement -"Gerush" of August 2005.
>
> **4 AUGUST 2005
>
> Bnei Yisrael, the Children of Promise
> **Yehoshua ( Joshua ) 5:1-2, 7-11:*
>
> *"...the L-rd said to Yehoshua ben Nun, ...arise cross this Jordan, you
> and all this nation, to the land which I give the children of Israel.
>
> ...be strong and very courageous to observe and do in accordance with all
> of the Torah that Moshe My servant has commanded you. Do not stray therefrom
> right or left, in order that you succeed wherever you go.
>
> This book of the Torah shall not leave your mouth; you shall meditate
> therein day and night, in order that you observe to do all that is written
> in it, for then will you succeed in all your ways and then will you prosper.
>
> Did I not command you, be strong and have courage, do not fear and do not
> be dismayed, for the L-rd your G-d is with you wherever you go.
>
> And Yehoshua commanded the officers of the nation, saying:
>
> Go through the midst of the camp and command the nation saying: Prepare
> provision for yourselves, for in another three days you will cross this
> Jordan to come and inherit the land that the L-rd your G-d is giving you to
> inherit."
> *
> Bnei Yisrael! It is time to scrap the Israel Defense Forces and re-create
> the army of HaShem Tzvahot that engages in milchemet mitzvah.
>
> Just as the Zionism which viewed Eretz Yisrael as a safe haven from
> anti-semites is dead, so too is the idea of an army which exists solely to
> defend against aggressors.
>
> Just as the presence of neo-nazis in Israel has proven the fallacy of the
> first premise, so too has the onslaught of terrorism on our own soil proven
> the failure of defense to provide security.
>
> *"...Do not stray there from right or left, in order that you succeed
> wherever you go."*
>
> 'Settling' the Land was only half of the mitzvah...
>
>
> *Devarim (Deuteronomy )7:1-2, 16-21:
>
> "When the L-rd, your G-d, brings you into the land to to which you are
> coming to possess it, He will cast away many nations from before you:
> ...nations more numerous and powerful than you.
>
> And the L-rd, your G-d, will deliver them to you, and you shall smite them.
> You shall utterly destroy them; neither shall you make a covenant with
> them, nor be gracious to them.
>
> ... And you shall consume all the peoples which the L-rd your G-d gives
> you; you shall not spare them, nor shall you worship their gods, for that
> will be a snare for you.
>
> Will you say to yourself, "These nations are more numerous than I; how will
> I be able to drive them out"?
>
> You shall not fear them. You shall surely remember what the L-rd, your G-d,
> did to Pharaoh and to all of Egypt:
>
> The great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, the wonders, the mighty
> hand, and the outstretched arm with which the L-rd, your G-d, brought you
> out. So will the L-rd, Your G-d, do to all the peoples you fear.
>
> And also the tzir'ah, the Lord, your God, will incite against them, until
> the survivors and those who hide from you perish.
>
> You shall not be terrified of them, for the L-rd, your G-d, Who is in your
> midst, is a great and awesome G-d."*
>
> Are we the children of Yehoshua, the inheritors of the promises made to
> Yaakov? Then we must act like it! We must conquer this Land as if we are the
> owners and not simply unwelcome guests as over the centuries in galut
>
> If we will believe it, then our enemies will begin to believe it as well.
>
>
> *7 AUGUST 2005
>
>
> Why are we losing Gaza?*
> *Motzaei"sh Rosh Chodesh Av
> *
> As G-d-fearing people we are taught that nothing happens to us that does
> not first receive permission from Heaven. It stands to reason then that if
> an evil decree is issued against us, we must have done something to deserve
> it. And the only way to avert it is to repent of the causative error. Hence,
> the question we only have ten days to answer for ourselves is...
>
> Why are we losing Gaza?
>
> See, it's not enough to cry out to G-d and assure him of our general sorrow
> and aim to repent. We have to confess our specific sin, take every possible
> action to correct it and resolve not to repeat it. This is the repentance
> necessary to avert an evil decree like the mass expulsion of 8,000 plus Jews
> from the Gaza District of Eretz Yisrael.
>
> On one hand the answer is very simple and obvious, but on the other, it is
> very difficult to accept in this day and at this time in history. The very
> parshah we all read in the synagogue today tells us...
>
> ".. if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the Land from before you,
> then those whom you leave over will be as spikes in your eyes and thorns in
> your sides, and they will harass you in the land in which you settle. And it
> will be that what I had intended to do to them, I will do to you. (Bamidbar
> / Numbers 33:55-56)
>
> The Artscroll commentary says:
>
> "G-d declares that the Jews must rid the Land of the corrosive Canaanite
> presence, and if they fail to do so, they will suffer the fate G-d had
> intended to impress upon the Canaanites, and be driven out. (Rashbam)"
>
> We don't really need to identify today's Palestinians as ancient Canaanites
> in order to see that since we did not drive them out in 1967, we are today
> being driven out before them.
>
> In the forty years that Jews have been resettling Gaza, has anyone made any
> efforts toward fulfilling this Torah commandment? Or did the Jews of Gaza,
> like the rest of the Jewish people throughout the Land of Israel, repeat the
> same mistakes of the ancient past by allowing these people to remain and
> even encouraging them through offers of employment? Some Gazan Jews have
> commended themselves for their humanity in going so far as to even socialize
> with Palestinians over the years.
>
> It is for this that teshuva must be done and for the hubris which made us
> think we knew better than the L-rd of the Land---HaShem.
>
> So, why are we losing Gaza with the Northern Shomron to follow? Very simply
> because two opposing peoples cannot live together in this Land. Either they
> must go or we will. Either we drive them out or HaShem will drive us out.
> That is the Torah direct from the mouth of God.
>
> Can thousands of Jews reach this conclusion and wholeheartedly embrace
> these words in the ten days that are left to us? That is the first step. If
> HaShem sees we mean business, perhaps He will show mercy and defer the
> expulsion until we can take the second step---the establishment of a Jewish
> government which will enact this Torah Law for the benefit of the Jewish
> people on every inch of soil in the Jewish homeland.
>
> If the very idea is too much for you to wrap your brain around and you
> would prefer to give up Gaza rather than go to the next level of the
> redemption process, then there's no real hope to stop it. We are forbidden
> to depend upon miracles and right now, short of true repentance, that's all
> we've got.
>
> With great hope until the very end~
>
> *2008 UPDATE:* Have we learned anything in the last three years? Or must
> we relive it yet again with Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem?
>
> *Very sobering thoughts as we continue down this road of sheer insanity.
> Will we ever learn ?
> Time for individual teshuva ....... with HaShem's mercy on a national
> basis.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> *
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Dec 14 15:41:56 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:41:56 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] PROJECT SHOFAR.
Message-ID: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Dec 14 15:45:01 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:45:01 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Project Shofar : Current Article.
Message-ID: <49457E5D.5030003@westnet.com.au>

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From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Sun Dec 14 17:57:47 2008
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:27:47 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] DISENGAGEMENT AND CONSEQUENCES.
In-Reply-To: <49456C68.80401@westnet.com.au>
References: <49456C68.80401@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <49459D7B.2060503@y7mail.com>

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 18:35:37 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:35:37 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] PROJECT SHOFAR.
In-Reply-To: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Joe,

     I actually have known 'of' Gary for quite a while, although I haven't
had the pleasure of meeting him yet.  Both he and I had worked with Monroe
Spen (on different projects), who had supported the movement to free the
Temple Mount and other causes such as the rebuilding of Hevron as a Jewish
city.

     In a further ironic element, Kyra and I were supposed to go to Hevron
for Shabbat Chaye Sara, and stay at Gary's.  The arrangements were being
made by Kyra's boyfriend, Zach, who is a family friend of the Cooperberg's.
However, they already had a houseful of guests, and couldn't accommodate
us.

    Without a doubt, he sounds like my kind of guy!  I look forward to
meeting him when I'm in Israel.

     I've read a number of things that Rav Waldman has written, and he is
one of the truly great Rabbanim in Israel; one of the leaders of this
generation.

     Looking forward to reading those articles, achi.

      B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
              *  Hanoch
*
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

> *Shalom Hanoch,
>
> as a continuing legacy to the voice of Rabbi Meir Kahane, I would like to
> introduce Gary Cooperberg from Project Shofar.
>
> I met Gary personally when he visited Australia in 1998.
> I was captivated by his message and a personal friendship ensured .
>
> Gary is based in Kiryat Arba - Chevron . He is associated with Nir College
> of Judaic Studies and is involved with Rabbi Eliezer Waldman.
>
> In time I will write some stirring articles by  Rabbi Waldman and Gary
> Cooperberg. They are priceless gems.
>
> *In the Traditions of Rabbi Meir Kahane A Tribute to Rabbi Meir Kahane
> by Gershon ben Shabtai
> alias Gary M. Cooperberg
> Now it's our turn
> November 7, 1990
>
> [image: A Tribute to Rabbi Meir Kahane] All I feel is a deep emptiness in
> the pit of my stomach. I have no desire to eat, or talk to anybody. Only by
> writing can I channel the pain I feel into something positive. Rabbi Meir
> Kahane was more than a friend. He was a living legend; the embodiment of
> what real Jewish pride is supposed to be; and an inspiration to all who knew
> him that there is always hope for our people. He was fighting for his people
> and sitting in jails long before I met him some fifteen years ago. Even then
> he was shuttling back and forth between Israel and America, reaching out to
> his people. Were it not for these trips, I might not have become the
> observant Jew I am today, living in Israel. Yes, Rabbi Kahane had a profound
> affect upon me, enabling me to shape my own life as a Jew who has elected to
> come home.
>
> I know that there are countless Jews who have been rescued from Jewish
> amnesia by this Tzadik. But, as he often taught, to save just one Jewish
> life, is as if you have saved the entire world. Who can count the number of
> entire worlds Rabbi Kahane has saved?
>
> How can it be that in such a brief moment he was snatched from us forever?
> We who knew him and loved him are the heirs to his mission. We dare not let
> his murderer succeed in killing the idea for which he gave his very life,
> the idea that Torah is our guide and light. When it conflicts with obstacles
> in our daily life, we must overcome those obstacles and uphold the Torah, no
> matter what the price.
>
> There are those who labeled him a racist, simply because he spoke the
> Jewish truth. Every Jewish leader in Israel secretly agreed with all that he
> said, but none had the courage to speak what they believed. Rabbi Kahane
> faced the problems head on and came up with many brilliant ideas to solve
> them. The powers that be chose, and still choose not to recognize the war
> against the Jewish State and the Jewish people by "our" Arabs, and today we
> are reaping the reward of that cowardice as we learn to live with Arab
> terror. And still they condemn the man, the only man, whose ideas would have
> ended the "intifada" long before it began.
>
> Where do we go from here? Only you can decide what you will do. We won't
> find another Meir Kahane. But he still lives and breathes deep inside each
> and every one of us whom he has touched. Let us, each one of us, carry on
> the ideals for which he gave his very life. And he gave his life every day
> for those ideals. If each one of us would devote ourselves with one tenth of
> the energy he gave, we can conquer the world. It is now up to us.
>
> [*After Rabbi Kahane was murdered, in 1990, his widow, Libby Kahane,
> called upon Gary Cooperberg to continue the Rabbi's column in the Jewish
> Press. From May of 1991 until February of 1994 the column appeared under the
> title* "In the Traditions of Rabbi Meir Kahane", *z"tl, H"yd" by Gershon
> ben Shabtai, (Gary Cooperberg's Hebrew name). In the byline was a photo of
> the Rabbi.*]
> *I am including a speech by Gary Cooperberg :
> *http://www.projectshofar.org/videos/dayton-1.wmv
>
> *I encourage everyone to view his website :
> *http://www.projectshofar.org/index.htm
>
> *Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> *
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sun Dec 14 19:16:16 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:16:16 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P (R and Q)?
In-Reply-To: <855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>

Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...

 

Ephraim <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephraim>  is the most probable founder
of the Y-Chromosome DNA
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroups>
Haplogroup <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_%28Y-DNA%29>  P, which
is one of the primary suggestions in Israelite
<http://jewsandjoes.com/israelite-and-noahic-haplogroup-hypotheses.html>
Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and female
descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA haplogroups, but P seems
to be the most apparent at this time. Connecting this haplogroup and its
sub-haplogroups R <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29>
and Q <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29>  to Ephraim
will of course receive much criticism from the so-called "Secular"
Educational Establishment and Population
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics>  Geneticists in general.

http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html

 

 

 

 

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sun Dec 14 19:41:41 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:41:41 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>
Message-ID: <011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com>

Shalom All!

In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at
Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on
the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.
In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 

Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath
caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."

Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel
bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set
Ephraim before Manasseh.
21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with
you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I
took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."

 

So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has
sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE
blessed..



The back of a current Israeli coin:



Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may
be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:

 
<http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference
/jewish/jewish28a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/
anc-jewish.htm&usg=__ozkm07V4CXFtyg8ixX7WdoMAGdI=&h=236&w=421&sz=15&hl=en&st
art=38&tbnid=tMfAxiXkZOo0DM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddouble%2Bco
rnucopia%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN> 

I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a
new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to
begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to
comments.

Patty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 14 19:54:59 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:54:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you, Ross
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS77B186EE1400095796488BAF40@phx.gbl>

Tonight's class fed HaShem's lambs all over the world.  Thank you so much for standing up to do this so direly important work, Ross.

Chazak!  Chazak!!!!

Love,

Avigail/Pat

P.S.

Am praying for dear Rudy and Linda.  May we all join them in that hospital room with our prayers.  May our prayers be a wall around Rudy, just as John Carlson once shared with us about his intercession experience when a loved one of his was supernaturally protected.
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 19:57:03 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:57:03 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>
	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com>
Message-ID: <855590370812141757m32b32df2ncb17f63d7f34971d@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Patty!!

    Very cool stuff, and your dedication to it is wonderful, and
inspirational.  Well, leave it to the Non-Ephramite in the group to 'vote'
first, but I agree with you (hey Sis, is that a first, or what?  LOL), and
think you should go with that symbol.

     Very best regards,
           * Hanoch*
(your brother from the Bronx)

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 5:41 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

>  Shalom All!
>
> In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking
> at Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork
> on the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of
> Joseph.  In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read:
>
> Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath
> caused me to be *fruitful* in the land of my affliction."
>
> Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel
> bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set
> Ephraim before Manasseh.
> 21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, *I *die: but God shall be with
> you, and bring *you* again unto the land of your fathers.
> 22    Moreover *I *have given to thee *one portion above thy brethren*,
> which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."
>
>
>
> So EPHRAIM has come to mean: *doubly fruitful.*
>
> A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has
> sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE
> blessed?.
>
> The back of a current Israeli coin:
>
> Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia
> may be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:
>
>
> <http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/jewish28a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/anc-jewish.htm&usg=__ozkm07V4CXFtyg8ixX7WdoMAGdI=&h=236&w=421&sz=15&hl=en&start=38&tbnid=tMfAxiXkZOo0DM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddouble%2Bcornucopia%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN>
>
> I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a
> new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to
> begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to
> comments.
>
> Patty
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sun Dec 14 19:59:09 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:59:09 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <855590370812141757m32b32df2ncb17f63d7f34971d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com>
	<855590370812141757m32b32df2ncb17f63d7f34971d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014001c95e58$b9c813c0$2d583b40$@com>

Hey Bother Hanoch, ((big hugs)). Let's record that on this day  Judah and
Israel agreed on something!!

 

Luv,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:57 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 

Hey Patty!!

 

    Very cool stuff, and your dedication to it is wonderful, and
inspirational.  Well, leave it to the Non-Ephramite in the group to 'vote'
first, but I agree with you (hey Sis, is that a first, or what?  LOL), and
think you should go with that symbol.

 

     Very best regards,

            Hanoch

(your brother from the Bronx)

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 5:41 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

Shalom All!

In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at
Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on
the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.
In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 

Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath
caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."

Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel
bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set
Ephraim before Manasseh.
21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with
you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I
took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."

 

So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has
sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE
blessed..

Error! Filename not specified.

The back of a current Israeli coin:

Error! Filename not specified.

Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may
be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:

 
<http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference
/jewish/jewish28a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/
anc-jewish.htm&usg=__ozkm07V4CXFtyg8ixX7WdoMAGdI=&h=236&w=421&sz=15&hl=en&st
art=38&tbnid=tMfAxiXkZOo0DM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddouble%2Bco
rnucopia%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN> Error!
Filename not specified.

I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a
new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to
begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to
comments.

Patty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


_______________________________________________

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 20:03:11 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:03:11 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <014001c95e58$b9c813c0$2d583b40$@com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>
	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com>
	<855590370812141757m32b32df2ncb17f63d7f34971d@mail.gmail.com>
	<014001c95e58$b9c813c0$2d583b40$@com>
Message-ID: <855590370812141803h77673d97w97f413acb8e8feb3@mail.gmail.com>

"3,000 years in the making...."

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 5:59 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

>  Hey Bother Hanoch, ((big hugs)). Let's record that on this day  Judah and
> Israel agreed on something!!
>
>
>
> Luv,
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:57 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
>
>
>
> Hey Patty!!
>
>
>
>     Very cool stuff, and your dedication to it is wonderful, and
> inspirational.  Well, leave it to the Non-Ephramite in the group to 'vote'
> first, but I agree with you (hey Sis, is that a first, or what?  LOL), and
> think you should go with that symbol.
>
>
>
>      Very best regards,
>
>            * Hanoch*
>
> (your brother from the Bronx)
>
> On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 5:41 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:
>
> Shalom All!
>
> In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking
> at Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork
> on the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of
> Joseph.  In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read:
>
> Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath
> caused me to be *fruitful* in the land of my affliction."
>
> Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel
> bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set
> Ephraim before Manasseh.
> 21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, *I *die: but God shall be with
> you, and bring *you* again unto the land of your fathers.
> 22    Moreover *I *have given to thee *one portion above thy brethren*,
> which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."
>
>
>
> So EPHRAIM has come to mean: *doubly fruitful.*
>
> A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has
> sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE
> blessed?.
>
> *Error! Filename not specified.*
>
> The back of a current Israeli coin:
>
> *Error! Filename not specified.*
>
> Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia
> may be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:
>
> *Error! Filename not specified.*<http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/jewish28a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/anc-jewish.htm&usg=__ozkm07V4CXFtyg8ixX7WdoMAGdI=&h=236&w=421&sz=15&hl=en&start=38&tbnid=tMfAxiXkZOo0DM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddouble%2Bcornucopia%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN>
>
> I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a
> new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to
> begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to
> comments.
>
> Patty
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 14 20:10:03 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:10:03 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P (R and
	Q)?
In-Reply-To: <010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>
Message-ID: <45718436-C37B-4B3C-BE64-32C3C5B65595@earthlink.net>

Patty,

Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, it  
seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite tribes. In  
fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather astounded at  
the correlations with his work. See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is getting  
his conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear.

Best,

James


On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:

> Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
>
> Ephraim is the most probable founder of the Y-Chromosome DNA  
> Haplogroup P, which is one of the primary suggestions in Israelite  
> Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and  
> female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA  
> haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time.  
> Connecting this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups R and Q to  
> Ephraim will of course receive much criticism from the so-called  
> "Secular" Educational Establishment and Population Geneticists in  
> general.
>
> http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Dec 14 20:20:41 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:20:41 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you, Ross
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS77B186EE1400095796488BAF40@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU125-DS77B186EE1400095796488BAF40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B5EF9A67AE2542C8AF94CC8ED4F3E2CA@bettylaptop>

Yes!  Beautiful message, Ross.and prayers for Rudy and Linda going around
the world and back to that hospital room.may they both feel our prayers, our
love and the loving arms of El Shaddai round about them!

 

Love,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you, Ross

 

Tonight's class fed HaShem's lambs all over the world.  Thank you so much
for standing up to do this so direly important work, Ross.

 

Chazak!  Chazak!!!!

 

Love,

 

Avigail/Pat

 

P.S.

 

Am praying for dear Rudy and Linda.  May we all join them in that hospital
room with our prayers.  May our prayers be a wall around Rudy, just as John
Carlson once shared with us about his intercession experience when a loved
one of his was supernaturally protected.

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun Dec 14 20:26:00 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:26:00 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Ross & Sunday Shul Tonight!
Message-ID: <91632B00ECFB41F294C95DC7C9089961@bettylaptop>

Ross and all,

 

I hope that everyone had a chance to listen to this amazing lesson tonight!
My heart is so full that I really cannot put my thoughts, feelings and
emotions into words.  I truly believe that HaShem guided your thoughts and
your words tonight, Ross.  These are the kind of words that do cause hearts
to "return" to Torah, G-d and Israel, as the words of Deut 30 so beautifully
express.we, who are responding to this clarion call, are in a far country,
are hearing the words of Torah and they are penetrating our hearts.  As we
are turning, we are returning and HaShem is re-gathering us!  So in essence,
we are actually taking part in a portion of that prophecy being fulfilled.
I encourage all of you to read Deut 30.  It is the last part of the Torah
portion, Nitzavim, which means to "stand strong!" And it has a very special
place in my heart.

 

Ross, you mentioned last week that you are entering your 20 year mark as a
seeker and a follower of the Ancient Paths.  Roger and I are coming close to
that 20 year mark ourselves.  In fact, it was during Hanukkah, 1989 when we
were first introduced to this path.  We have struggled, fallen down
countless times, but continually have been drawn back to HaShem and to His
precious Torah over and over..For me, during the hard times, it has
sometimes been from my just opening up my Tanach and having a passage or a
group of passages "jump" out at me ( like Deut 30) and sometimes it has been
an email or phone call from a friend, and other times, it has been a strong
and powerful message such as this!

 

Again, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, Ross.  Your
word tonight I believe were anointed and I pray that they will reach and
touch every open heart, and even serve to "open" a heart that might have
been previously closed.  And I also want to encourage all of you who
listened to study and to pray and to continue to learn the ways of  our G-d!
The path is often difficult, but after 20 years, I can truly say with a full
heart, that it is well worth the journey!  

 

The beauty of a message like this, is that no matter how many times it goes
out, and no matter how many times one hears it, it is still fresh, for as
its words reach receptive ears and hearts, it penetrates to another
layer.one closer to the very Heart of G-d!  As the season of Hanukkah
approaches, may we all prepare our hearts to dedicate ourselves to Him!  And
with each candle that we light, may our own individual and collective lights
grow brighter and brighter to light up the dark night!

 

Thank you, Ross, and thank all of you on this list, whose words and posts
continually uplift and encourage the rest of us!

 

Toda rabba, shavua tov,

 

Shalom, Shalom!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sun Dec 14 20:38:45 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:38:45 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P (R
	and	Q)?
In-Reply-To: <45718436-C37B-4B3C-BE64-32C3C5B65595@earthlink.net>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>
	<45718436-C37B-4B3C-BE64-32C3C5B65595@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <016301c95e5e$43a1e530$cae5af90$@com>

Thanks James, I will take a look at this.

 

Love.

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:10 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P (R and
Q)?

 

Patty,

 

Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, it seems
to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite tribes. In fact, it
fits his work so closely I find myself rather astounded at the correlations
with his work. See, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

 

I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is getting his
conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear. 

 

Best,

 

James

 

 

On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:





Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...

 

Ephraim <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephraim>  is the most probable founder
of the Y-Chromosome DNA
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroups>
Haplogroup <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_%28Y-DNA%29>  P, which
is one of the primary suggestions in Israelite
<http://jewsandjoes.com/israelite-and-noahic-haplogroup-hypotheses.html>
Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and female
descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA haplogroups, but P seems
to be the most apparent at this time. Connecting this haplogroup and its
sub-haplogroups R <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29>
and Q <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29>  to Ephraim
will of course receive much criticism from the so-called "Secular"
Educational Establishment and Population
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics>  Geneticists in general.

http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html

 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________

 

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From vegemiterose at y7mail.com  Sun Dec 14 21:05:40 2008
From: vegemiterose at y7mail.com (Vegemite Rose)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:35:40 +1030
Subject: [Dialogue] Ross & Sunday Shul Tonight!
In-Reply-To: <91632B00ECFB41F294C95DC7C9089961@bettylaptop>
References: <91632B00ECFB41F294C95DC7C9089961@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <4945C984.2090000@y7mail.com>

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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sun Dec 14 22:47:22 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 23:47:22 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Thanks
Message-ID: <d46.37faae48.36773b5a@aol.com>

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. I really enjoyed teaching this  
class and have a feeling that it will be "heard" far and wide.
 
I appreciate the opportunity that has been given to me. Again,  thanks.
 
Love and shalom!
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Mon Dec 15 00:18:03 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:18:03 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P
	(R and Q)?
In-Reply-To: <45718436-C37B-4B3C-BE64-32C3C5B65595@earthlink.net>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <200812150618.mBF6I3aM031548@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>

James, Hanoch, Patty, All,

FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup 
R1b1b2.  It is dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and 
is a minority in Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I may 
be related to some straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who seem to 
be some clan of the Scots that remained behind in Eastern Europe/ 
Ukraine/Osettia.

See: <http://britam.org/now/1250Now.html>"Brit-Am 
Now"-1250,  <http://britam.org/benjamin.html>Benjamin Tribe of 
Israel, <http://britam.org/now/now147.html>Brit-Am Now 147 , 
<http://britam.org/now/955Now.html>Brit-Am Now 955, 
<http://britam.org/khazars.html>"KHAZARS". Israelite Tribes in Exile" 
(more on a word search for "Alans" on Yair Davidy's http://britam.org site).

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho for the Scottish 
connection of the SNP Mutation M269, which I have and found my 
closest match with some Scots living now.

Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water, and 
when I left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor had any 
desire whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on some deep level, 
that I did not belong there.  Oh yes, I never went for the 
anti-semitic stuff either, but always felt an affinity to 
Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes too.....

Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or 
Not will be a work of many, many volumes.....

Steve







At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:
>Patty,
>
>Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, 
>it seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite 
>tribes. In fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather 
>astounded at the correlations with his work. See, for example: 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
>
>I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is getting 
>his conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear.
>
>Best,
>
>James
>
>
>On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:
>
>>Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
>>
>>
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephraim>Ephraim is the most probable 
>>founder of the 
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroups>Y-Chromosome 
>>DNA 
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_%28Y-DNA%29>Haplogroup 
>>P, which is one of the primary suggestions in 
>><http://jewsandjoes.com/israelite-and-noahic-haplogroup-hypotheses.html>Israelite 
>>Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and 
>>female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA 
>>haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time. 
>>Connecting this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups 
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29>R and 
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29>Q to Ephraim 
>>will of course receive much criticism from the so-called "Secular" 
>>Educational Establishment and 
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics>Population 
>>Geneticists in general.
>>
>><http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html>http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>
>_______________________________________________
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From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Mon Dec 15 01:17:18 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 23:17:18 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
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	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com>
Message-ID: <200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>


Patty,

Despite of what the Hasmoneans or others have 
used, the cornucopia is basically a Greek symbol, 
associated with their goddesses and mythologies, 
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornucopia ).  You 
do not wan to use it. Perhaps some other ways to 
depict plenty would be more appropriate, 
especially now, when approaching Chanukkah, the 
anniversary of Israel's triumph over Hellenization.

Steve


At 05:41 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:
>Content-Type: multipart/related;
>         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011D_01C95E2C.61164070"
>Content-Language: en-us
>
>Shalom All!
>
>In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim 
>album, I have been looking at Tribal emblems, 
>the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found 
>much artwork on the Twelve Tribes, but very 
>little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of 
>Joseph.  In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read:
>Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called 
>he Ephraim: "For God hath caused me to be 
>fruitful in the land of my affliction."
>Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, 
>saying, "In thee shall Israel bless, saying, 
>'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and 
>he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
>21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I 
>die: but God shall be with you, and bring you 
>again unto the land of your fathers.
>22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion 
>above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand 
>of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."
>
>So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.
>
>A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is 
>the cornucopia and has sometime been used for 
>the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE blessed
.
>
>[]
>
>
>The back of a current Israeli coin:
>
>[]
>
>
>Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY 
>fruitful, the double-cornucopia may be an 
>appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:
>
><http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/jewish28a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/anc-jewish.htm&usg=__ozkm07V4CXFtyg8ixX7WdoMAGdI=&h=236&w=421&sz=15&hl=en&start=38&tbnid=tMfAxiXkZOo0DM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddouble%2Bcornucopia%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN>
>[]
>
>
>I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW 
>STANDARD for Ephraim - a new, modified form of 
>the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here 
>ready to begin, should we adopt this as our 
>national symbol? I am looking forward to comments.
>
>Patty
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 06:25:03 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 04:25:03 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "The Jihad against Israel is the Jihad against the west"
Message-ID: <855590370812150425j72741621x2afe2452da3ade7b@mail.gmail.com>

Geert Wilders in Jerusalem "The Jihad against Israel is the Jihad against
the West."
Posted By Andrew Bostom On December 14, 2008

It's a privilege for me to be here in this beautiful city Jerusalem, the
capitol of the only democracy in the entire Middle East. When I was a
teenager I lived some years here in this city and after that I visited
Israel more times than I can count. Israel: the only country in the region
with a functioning parliament, a rule of law and free elections. The only
country in the region that shares the values of our Western societies, in
fact is one of the foundations of our Judeo-Christian identity.

We are here to voice our concern over the growing Islamisation of the West.
We do this in this city, the city of David. The city that, together with
Rome and Athens, symbolizes our ancient heritage.

Perhaps a few of you may be new to Jerusalem, yet, Jerusalem is not new to
any of you. We all carry Jerusalem in our blood, in our genes. We all live
and breathe Jerusalem. We talk Jerusalem, we dream Jerusalem. Simply
because, the values of ancient Israel have become the values of the West. We
are all Israel, and Israel is in all of us.

This city is the capital of a democracy under threat. Israel is under siege,
like the Jewish community in the Land of Israel is under siege for over a
century now. Israel with all its glory and splendour is unique, and its
history unparalleled. Yet, Israel's security situation is not unique, and
neither is its enemy.

Samuel Huntington writes it so aptly: "Islam has bloody borders". Israel is
located precisely on that border. This tiny country is situated on the fault
line of jihad, just like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines, Southern
Thailand, Darfur in Sudan, Lebanon, and Aceh in Indonesia. Israel is simply
in the way of the Islamic advance. Just like West-Berlin was during the Cold
War.

Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of us. If there
would have been no Israel, Islamic imperialism would have found other places
to release its energy and its desire for conquest. Therefore, the war
against Israel is not a war against Israel. It is a war against the West. It
is jihad. Thanks to Israeli parents who see their children go off to join
the army and lie awake at night, parents in Europe and America can sleep
well and have pleasant dreams, unaware of the dangers looming.

At present the front-line of jihad runs not just through the streets of Tel
Aviv and Haifa, but through the streets of London, Madrid, and Amsterdam as
well. Jihad is our common enemy, and we better start Facing Jihad before it
is too late.

Therefore, if we voice our concern over the Islamisation of the West, we
have to do it here, where our civilization borders on Islam. Where jihadists
fire Qassams into civilian homes in Sderot and Ashkelon, and where a doctor
like Aryeh Eldad is characteristic of our civilization by treating
terrorists the same way as he treats the Israeli victims. I salute Professor
Eldad for his work for humanity, and for his patriotism. And I thank him for
hosting this conference in this great city. Aryeh I am proud to be your
friend.

I will say a few things about the Islamisation of Europe and my film Fitna.
I will use some examples from the Netherlands, because they are indicative
for the situation on the continent.

The mass migration to the Netherlands continues full-speed ahead. Currently,
a staggering number of new immigrants arrive every year, many of them
Muslim, often uneducated, if not illiterate. Bringing along with them the
local customs of the mountains and deserts of backward Islamic countries.
Thousands and thousands of Muslims arrive in the Netherlands every year,
while already one million Muslims are living in our tiny country.

There are many problems concerning this massive influx: immigrants are
overly represented in social benefits and crime statistics and the overall
costs are staggering. The financial costs of mass immigration in the
Netherlands exceeds 100 billion euro's.

But what we have to fear most is the creeping Islamisation, the stealth
jihad. Because every Islamic neighbourhood, every Islamic shop, every
mosque, every Islamic school, every burqa, every veil is regarded by many
Muslims as building blocks towards a larger goal, towards domination.

This is in fact the essence of the problem. Not crime, not even the
financial burden. The biggest problem is the demographic development, and
the way it influences our society at large. Immigration from Muslim
countries and the demographics will result in the Eurabia that the brave Bat
Ye'or is warning about. It will become reality if we don't act now.

A decade and a half ago, a then unknown American politician used the
following slogan in his political campaign: "it's the economy, stupid." From
now on the motto of my party will be: "it's demographics, dumbo".

More than forty years ago a British politician gave a famous speech. He
stated that, looking into the future, he saw 'rivers of blood' as a result
of the uncontrolled influx of immigrants. Enoch Powell's speech was the
starting point of a debate on mass immigration in Europe. As usual, the
leftist establishment labeled him an extremist and his career went down. But
the British people loved him, and supported Powell. London's dock workers
took him to their hearts, marching by the thousands in support of  Mr.
Powell.

Looking back, I share Enoch Powell's alarmist views on mass immigration,
but  'rivers of blood' is not something I see happening. We will not face
civil war. Our political elite is trying to make us believe that the influx
of Muslim immigrants is similar to the waves of immigration that took place
centuries ago. Or they say that "Christianity developed towards modernity,
and therefore Islam will do the same".

How are we to remain a democracy if a large part of the growing Muslim
population is in favour of introducing sharia law? How is Amsterdam to
remain the gay capitol of Europe if gays are regularly beaten up by non
western immigrants, often Muslims? How are the Jewish communities of Europe
to survive with a growing presence of an ideology that is so blatantly
anti-Semitic? How are we to remain a centre of cultural and scientific
excellence if Islam opposes art, and academic exploration? How are we to
remain an open and tolerant society if we are faced with part of the Muslim
community favouring self-segregation and showing no desire for assimilation?
How can we look to the future with confidence, when a large part of the
population turns to a seventh century desert for answers?

These are the questions the multiculturalists don't want to answer.

Instead of providing leadership our political elite fooled us by using our
own principles against us. I will give you five examples.

First. Our tolerance is used as an argument to bring in more Islam, to bring
in more Muslims, and a way to tell us that we should not criticize their
Islamic culture, if you do you are labeled intolerant and  racist.

Second. Democracy. A growing Muslim electorate is too hard for politicians
to resist, so they give in to their grievances and demands to win their
vote. Before long sharia law will be introduced, legally and democratically,
by means of majority vote. The former Dutch Minister of Justice once said
that sharia law could be part of the Dutch legal system if a two third
majority of the population would be in favour of it.

Third. Our religious freedom is utilized by an ideology that has no plans
whatsoever to play by our rules, yet demands the same rights our traditional
religions have had for centuries;

Fourth. Our welfare state that once was the envy of the world, now functions
as a magnet for a lot of non-Western immigrants, dreaming of a cushy life in
wealthy Europe.

Fifth. Our open borders came to symbolize our open mindset, an example of
our cosmopolitan hospitality. But now we have lost control of our borders
and we can't even keep track of who is entering our countries, let alone
prevent them from entering.

Our Western principles are hollow if they are not accompanied by a desire to
sustain our culture and our civilization, based upon knowing who we are and
where we come from. We are not from Saudi-Arabia. We are not from Iran. We
come from Rome, Athens and Jerusalem. That makes our civilization special,
and certainly worth preserving.

In spite of all that, the political elite are still madly in love with their
pet project, the multicultural society, as they call it romantically.
Apparently they don't live in the neighbourhoods that are turning Islamic.
They will tell you "they are nice people. I don't see the problem?" The
Muslim immigrant's demands sound reasonably to them, like: "let us have an
extra-large mosque".

It is very difficult to remain optimistic in the face of the growing
Islamisation of Europe. The tide is turning against us. We are losing on
every front. Regarding the demographics, Islam is gaining momentum. The
ruling elite is even proud of the Muslim immigration. After all, this way
they can show everyone that they are not racists. Academia, the arts, the
media, trade unions, the churches, the business world, the entire political
establishment have all converted to the suicidal theory of multiculturalism
and cultural relativism.

Cultural relativism is the biggest disease modern day Europe suffers from.
Not all cultures are equal. Our Western culture is better than the Islamic
culture. In the words of the brave Dr. Wafa Sultan: "It is a clash between
civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive,
between barbarity and rationality". Indeed also here in Israel you are not
fighting a territorial war, it's not about territory it's about ideology.
The Islamic ideology does not seek cooperation or assimilation but aims for
submission and dominance over non-Muslims. There is no moderate Islam, there
will never be a moderate Islam. There might be moderate people who call
themselves Muslim, but there is no moderate Islam.

Leftist journalists and leftist politicians hasten themselves to label
anyone critical of the Islamisation a 'right-wing extremist'. The entire
establishment has sided with Islam. Leftists, liberals, and
Christian-Democrats are now enslaved to Islam. They are Dhimmi's. Lenin once
labelled ignorant people that unknowingly aided his cause 'useful idiots'.
Well, the West is now full of these 'useful idiots', and they are even proud
of it.

Now some words about my film Fitna.

I felt I had the moral duty to educate people about Islam and the
Islamisation of Europe. The duty to make clear to everyone that the Koran
stands at the heart of what some people call terrorism but is in reality
jihad. I wanted to show that the problems of Islam are at the core of Islam,
and do not belong to its fringes.

I have warned against the dangers of the Koran and Islam in numerous
interviews, opinion articles, speeches and of course parliamentary debates,
but pictures often say more than words. That is why I made Fitna.

Fitna is a documentary that shows what is being done in the name of Islam.
Without placing all Muslims into the same category, I think I have succeeded
in showing that the Koran is not some dusty old book, but that it is still
used today as a source of inspiration for, and justification of hatred,
violence and terrorism across the world.

A few weeks ago the world has once again seen what Islam is capable of. In
Mumbai, jihadists separated Muslims from non-Muslims, according to a witness
in a Belgian newspaper. The non-Muslims, the Kaffirs, were subsequently
shot. The terrorists also went straight for the tiny Jewish centre in
Mumbai, where, according to reports made to an Indian news website, they
horribly tortured Jewish people before brutally murdering them.

Most of the Western media stick to naming the culprits as being members of
'separatist movements'. In doing so, they are missing the main point and are
unjustly ignoring the Islamic nature of the terror attacks. After all, if it
is a conflict about borders, why are they killing Jews in Mumbai? Why, in a
city of tens of millions, find the jihadists the shortest way to the only
rabbi in town ? in order to kill him and his wife? Why are Israel's enemies
always shouting "Allah hoe-Akbar" and "kill the Jews" if all they want is
peaceful coexistence and mutual understanding? Maybe, I'm just guessing, is
it because they have an ideology that tells them to kill Jews, to kill
unbelievers, and to advance Islam until there is world domination. Islam,
after all divides the world in a dar-al-Harb, and dar-al-Islam. Islam is a
totalitarian ideology full of hate, violence and submission.

>From the day the plan for my short film was made public it caused quite a
stir, in the Netherlands, in Europe and across the world. First there was a
political uproar, with government leaders across the continent in sheer
panic. The Dutch Minister for Foreign Affairs called on me to abandon my
film project. The Minister of Justice let it be known that post hoc criminal
proceedings could be initiated if the movie was shown. The Dutch government
investigated the possibility of having Fitna banned in advance. The Dutch
branch of the Islamic organization Hizb ut-Tahrir declared that the
Netherlands was due for an attack. Internationally there was a series of
incidents. The Taliban threatened to organize additional attacks against
Dutch troops in Afghanistan and a website linked to Al Qaeda published the
message that I ought to be killed, while the Grand Mufti of Syria stated
that I would be responsible for all the bloodshed after the screening of the
film.

In Afghanistan and Pakistan the Dutch flag was burned on several occasions.
Dolls representing me were burned as well. The Indonesian President
announced that I will never be admitted into Indonesia again, while the UN
Secretary General and the European Union issued statements in the same
cowardly vein as those by the Dutch government. I could go on and on. It was
an absolute disgrace, a sell out. It was treason to our Western principles,
it was treason to freedom of speech, it was treason to liberty itself. My
own government was not defending me, but became my worst enemy in the
process.

Because of Fitna the State of Jordan is currently litigating against me.
Jordan wants to prosecute me for blasphemy, demeaning Islam and slandering
the Prophet Muhammad; violations of the Jordanian Penal Code, even though
the alleged violations did not even occur in Jordan. As you all know, Jordan
is a non-democratic country, without an independent or impartial judicial
system and without a strongly developed civil society. According to a recent
study by Human Rights Watch, torture is a routine and widespread practice in
Jordan.

Jordan's attempt to prosecute me is an infringement on the sovereignty of my
country, the Netherlands. It is an infringement on freedom of speech.
Jordan's attempt is in fact a hostile act towards freedom itself.

If Jordan succeeds in prosecuting a democratically elected member of a
Western parliament, what kind of precedent would that set? But its not about
me. The principle is not Geert Wilders. If you look at the press and the
rest of the political elite in the Netherlands, nobody cared. Nobody gived a
damn. This was the worst thing. A nondemocratic country like Jordan cannot
use the international or domestic legal system to silence anyone.  If this
starts, if we allow this, we can get rid of all parliaments, and we should
close down every newspaper, and we should shut up and all pray to Mecca five
times a day.

But there is some hope. For instance there is some hope with the middle
class workers. Underneath the empty bravado of the elite, the middle class
worker, the average Joe, is starting to realise that there is something
terribly wrong with Islam. In the Netherlands, sixty percent of the
population considers mass immigration to be the worst mistake since the
second world war. And an equal sixty percent sees Islam as the number one
threat to our national identity. But the Freedom Party is the only political
party in the Dutch parliament that shares their view.

And there is hope that political parties critical about the Islamisation of
the West are gaining momentum all over Europe, are getting stronger. And we
will work together with common legislation, with common initiatives, perhaps
even with a common group in the European parliament as defenders of the
West, defenders of our culture, defenders of our identity, defenders of our
freedom.

We need a new way of thinking, a new paradigm, to defend our liberties. Just
reiterating our devotion to tolerance and democracy is not good enough, as
we are Facing Jihad. We need a new set of goals and ideas. We need new
leaders. And we should always remember where we come from. We all come from
Jerusalem.

Let me wind up. The essence of my short speech today is that Europe is in
the process of Islamisation, and that we need to fight it. Because if we
don't fight the Islamization we will lose everything; our cultural identity,
our democracy, our rule of law, our liberties, our freedom. We have the duty
to defend the ideas of Rome, Athens and Jerusalem. The ancient heritage of
our forefathers is under attack; we have to stand up and defend it.

A century and a half ago, on the other side of the world, a young President
said exactly what I mean. This is what Abraham Lincoln said in 1862, and I
leave you with that:

"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The
occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise ? with the
occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must
disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country."

(Abraham Lincoln, Annual Message to Congress, December 1, 1862)

It is five to twelve. Freedom must win, we have to win and we will win.

All Articles Copyright (c) 2007-2008 Dr. Andrew Bostom | All Rights Reserved
________________________________________
Article printed from Andrew Bostom: http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog
URL to article:
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 06:46:53 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 04:46:53 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Nazi loving PA
Message-ID: <855590370812150446t79d22a92gbb9ec42efcb54e5d@mail.gmail.com>

Does this surprise anyone??
                 *  Hanoch*

*Nazi Flag Flies Unhindered in PA-Controlled Hevron Area*
  Kislev 17, 5769, 14 December 08 07:16
by by Hana Levi Julian

(IsraelNN.com) IDF commanders have yet to respond to repeated requests by
soldiers for equipment to remove a Nazi flag from an electric cable next to
an army "pillbox."

The bright red, white and black Nazi flag with its classic swastika insignia
was discovered by IDF soldiers two days ago, hanging on an electric wire
close to an army guard post near the Palestinian Authority-controlled
village of Beit Omar.

According to a source who spoke with *Israel National News*, the flag is
hanging in the same spot, from wires along Highway 60 in the Hevron area
south of Gush Etzion, where last Saturday there were Hizbullah terrorist
flags waving in the breeze.

"We want the public to see this so people can judge for themselves who we
are dealing with in the Palestinian Authority," said the source, who asked
to remain unnamed for security reasons. "We need special equipment to get it
down, and probably would need the electric company to come."

Despite soldiers' requests to their company officer for assistance in
getting someone to remove the offensive flag, however, nothing was done.

"We went to the officer, and he went to the commander," said the source.
"And the commander went to his commander, and he said they would send
someone to take it down. But it is still there, and it is two days later.
And it really annoying to the soldiers, I have to tell you. It is very
offensive ? but we have no way to get it down." %ad%
 www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
(c) Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon Dec 15 06:54:43 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:54:43 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com>
	<200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <01a701c95eb4$4ea68570$ebf39050$@com>

Thanks for the feedback, Steve. 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:17 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 


Patty, 

Despite of what the Hasmoneans or others have used, the cornucopia is
basically a Greek symbol, associated with their goddesses and mythologies, (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornucopia ).  You do not wan to use it.
Perhaps some other ways to depict plenty would be more appropriate,
especially now, when approaching Chanukkah, the anniversary of Israel's
triumph over Hellenization. 

Steve


At 05:41 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/related;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011D_01C95E2C.61164070"
Content-Language: en-us

Shalom All!

In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at
Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on
the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.
In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 
Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath
caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."
Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel
bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set
Ephraim before Manasseh.
21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with
you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I
took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."
 
So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has
sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE
blessed..

[]

The back of a current Israeli coin:

[]

Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may
be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:

 
<http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference
/jewish/jewish28a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/
anc-jewish.htm&usg=__ozkm07V4CXFtyg8ixX7WdoMAGdI=&h=236&w=421&sz=15&hl=en&st
art=38&tbnid=tMfAxiXkZOo0DM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddouble%2Bco
rnucopia%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN> []

I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a
new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to
begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to
comments.

Patty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 


_______________________________________________

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 15 08:46:16 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 09:46:16 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
	<01a701c95eb4$4ea68570$ebf39050$@com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
	<01a701c95eb4$4ea68570$ebf39050$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS5A319A77AAC00558F9131BAF40@phx.gbl>

 Yes, thank you so much for speaking up about this, Steve.  One of the most prevalent problems Ephraim has faced in its history is the tendency to fall under "foreign" influences.  We certainly do not wish to adopt a symbol of Hellenism as our banner, even as we Repent of our idolatries and Return to HaShem.  

Though the idea of the Cornucopia - especially with its double symbol displayed on a current Israeli coin - is very enticing, I believe it is still against what we are trying to do.  We are "coming out of Babylon" and all its glittery baggage to which we have historically been so drawn.  Therefore, our symbol needs to be decisively Torah oriented, as well as decisively non-Hellenistic.

When you bring up the point that this is the season we celebrate our Brother Judah's triumph over Hellenism, I feel we, as Ephraim, are especially obligated to eschew any and all "foreign" symbols, though it truly is a difficult thing to do!  We are totally inundated by Greece in our world today.

I think the idea of the double cornucopia is very lovely and fitting in and of itself, but when you think about its Greek origins, it would probably be best to pass on it as our symbol.

Thanks to you both, Patty and Steve,

Pat    


From: Patty 
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 7:54 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim


Thanks for the feedback, Steve. 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:17 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 


Patty, 

Despite of what the Hasmoneans or others have used, the cornucopia is basically a Greek symbol, associated with their goddesses and mythologies, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornucopia ).  You do not wan to use it. Perhaps some other ways to depict plenty would be more appropriate, especially now, when approaching Chanukkah, the anniversary of Israel's triumph over Hellenization. 

Steve


At 05:41 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/related;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011D_01C95E2C.61164070"
Content-Language: en-us

Shalom All!

In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.  In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 
Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."
Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."
 
So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE blessed..



The back of a current Israeli coin:



Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:



I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to comments.

Patty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 


_______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 15 10:38:59 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:38:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ross & Sunday Shul Tonight!
In-Reply-To: <91632B00ECFB41F294C95DC7C9089961@bettylaptop>
	<4945C984.2090000@y7mail.com>
References: <91632B00ECFB41F294C95DC7C9089961@bettylaptop>
	<4945C984.2090000@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS26679DA39E2C8EC1B3FE4BAF40@phx.gbl>

I so loved reading your emails, Betty and Jessica!  And I too am so very appreciative of the Chanukah season.  It was one of the first things about Judaism that I learned when I was a Christian.  Back then, I used to refer to it as the "Get the Greek Out" season!!!!  Through Alexander the Great, our world was "gifted" with Hellenization.  His legacy surrounds us in our everyday lives to this day.  It is subtle and insidiously beguiling, and we, like the Maccabees before us, must fight its influence, which battles with our Return to the Ancient Path.  

Yeshua observed the season of Chanukah (Hebrew word for "Dedication") by going to the Temple:    "And it was at Jerusalem the Feast of the Dedication (Chanukah), and it was winter.  And Jesus walked in the Temple in Solomon's porch."  John 10:22-23

This is a Time for remembering and rededicating ourselves to follow the Way of HaShem through our actions, not just our thoughts.  We need to look to the Macabbees because they didn't sit back and let the Greek way of life overtake Jerusalem (or as my granddaughter pronounces it:  Jewsalom!!!!)  

Pat 


From: Vegemite Rose 
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ross & Sunday Shul Tonight!


Betty wrote: " In fact, it was during Hanukkah, 1989 when we were first introduced to this path.  We have struggled, fallen down countless times, but continually have been drawn back to HaShem and to His precious Torah over and over..For me, during the hard times, it has sometimes been from my just opening up my Tanach and having a passage or a group of passages "jump" out at me ( like Deut 30) and sometimes it has been an email or phone call from a friend, and other times, it has been a strong and powerful message such as this!"

Hi Betty,
Indeed Chanukah is a very significant time for me also. I first met Joe at Chanukah 2003 and my life changed forever. My journey since then has been an incredible learning curve - at times an unbelievably steep learning curve, but certainly full of amazing and gobsmacking revelations and experiences. I have no hesitation in declaring to one and all Betty that HaShem, through Joe Indomenico his dedicated servant, saved my life at Chanukah 2003. Physically as well as Spiritually. Baruch HaShem and thank you Joe.
Betty, just like you and Roger, I also have fallen down countless times and no doubt will continue to do so, since I am a mere mortal. I have learned however to trust HaShem completely, and I know that when I fall down there is a lesson being taught and as soon as I learn the lesson, He picks me up and puts me back on my feet again - and I am a better human mortal than I was before I fell down. Unfortunately, I don't always remember the lessons and I guess that's why I keep falling down. Silly old woman that I am. HaShem is always there for me and I have absolutely no doubt He always will be there to instruct and guide and protect. We have to keep trusting Him Betty and remain focussed on His Teachings and follow His ways of right living. 
I wholeheartedly agree with you Betty - Life with HaShem is indeed well worth the journey.
Kindest regards,
Jessica


Betty Givin wrote: 
  Ross and all,

   

  I hope that everyone had a chance to listen to this amazing lesson tonight!  My heart is so full that I really cannot put my thoughts, feelings and emotions into words.  I truly believe that HaShem guided your thoughts and your words tonight, Ross.  These are the kind of words that do cause hearts to "return" to Torah, G-d and Israel, as the words of Deut 30 so beautifully express.we, who are responding to this clarion call, are in a far country, are hearing the words of Torah and they are penetrating our hearts.  As we are turning, we are returning and HaShem is re-gathering us!  So in essence, we are actually taking part in a portion of that prophecy being fulfilled.  I encourage all of you to read Deut 30.  It is the last part of the Torah portion, Nitzavim, which means to "stand strong!" And it has a very special place in my heart.

   

  Ross, you mentioned last week that you are entering your 20 year mark as a seeker and a follower of the Ancient Paths.  Roger and I are coming close to that 20 year mark ourselves.  In fact, it was during Hanukkah, 1989 when we were first introduced to this path.  We have struggled, fallen down countless times, but continually have been drawn back to HaShem and to His precious Torah over and over..For me, during the hard times, it has sometimes been from my just opening up my Tanach and having a passage or a group of passages "jump" out at me ( like Deut 30) and sometimes it has been an email or phone call from a friend, and other times, it has been a strong and powerful message such as this!

   

  Again, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, Ross.  Your word tonight I believe were anointed and I pray that they will reach and touch every open heart, and even serve to "open" a heart that might have been previously closed.  And I also want to encourage all of you who listened to study and to pray and to continue to learn the ways of  our G-d!  The path is often difficult, but after 20 years, I can truly say with a full heart, that it is well worth the journey!  

   

  The beauty of a message like this, is that no matter how many times it goes out, and no matter how many times one hears it, it is still fresh, for as its words reach receptive ears and hearts, it penetrates to another layer.one closer to the very Heart of G-d!  As the season of Hanukkah approaches, may we all prepare our hearts to dedicate ourselves to Him!  And with each candle that we light, may our own individual and collective lights grow brighter and brighter to light up the dark night!

   

  Thank you, Ross, and thank all of you on this list, whose words and posts continually uplift and encourage the rest of us!

   

  Toda rabba, shavua tov,

   

  Shalom, Shalom!

   

  Elisheva/Betty

   

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon Dec 15 14:24:51 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:24:51 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Nazi loving PA
In-Reply-To: <855590370812150446t79d22a92gbb9ec42efcb54e5d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812150446t79d22a92gbb9ec42efcb54e5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EF1CB2B5ED574C1E9FE789BFAD27E192@bettylaptop>

 

Hanoch, it certainly does not surprise me!  This situation is deplorable and
the Nazi flag with its hateful Swastika emblem an abomination, very
appropriate as we remember the "Abomination of Desolation" and the brave
Maccabbees of old during this upcoming Hanukkah season.  This very well
could be a sign, or even a "test," as Pat said, of more horrific things to
come if we and the people on our planet remain apathetic and choose to
ignore this situation.may history not be repeated!  What can be done to get
the MEDIA to cover this story.a picture is worth a 1,000 words.that would be
really all that would be needed.  I have not seen it on any of our media.
Has anyone? 

 

Does anyone not know anyone connected to the Israeli media or our media here
in the U.S?  I just wrote Bill O'Reilly at Fox News...as this is the sort of
thing that he would cover on his show if he knew about it.  Perhaps others
could write him as well.  Or write your local newspaper editors.  

 

I copied and pasted the email that I sent to Bill O-Reilly below.  If any of
you are interested, we could flood his inbox.  And who knows, perhaps with
so many  emails on the same subject, we might get his attention.  He does
regularly read his viewers emails on the air, so we do have a chance. His
address is oreilly at foxnews.com

 

Thanks, Hanoch, for this and all your other informative info!  Love and
appreciate you brother!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

Bill,

 

Have you seen this?  This is an abomination!  The swastika symbol stands for
all that is ugly and base in the world!!!  Surely you and our world media
need to rise up against this as you have so many other hideous things that
have gone on.  It is an affront not only to Israel and Jewish people all
over the world, but to everyone worldwide who has a sense of what is decent
and good and right.  As a Jew, it sends chills up my spine and fills me with
anger!  The IDF has done nothing so far?  Why?  Is it because they are
fearful of loss of life for the ones they send to remove it, fear of
injuring innocent people in the village if they blast it to shreds, or is it
because of world opinion?  Please, I beg you, just show this photo on your
show and add your pithy comments.  If no one else can get people's
attention, you can!  Of that I am sure!

 

Thank-you,

 

Elisheva, TX

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:47 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Nazi loving PA

 

Does this surprise anyone??

                   Hanoch

 

Nazi Flag Flies Unhindered in PA-Controlled Hevron Area

Kislev 17, 5769, 14 December 08 07:16

by by Hana Levi Julian

(IsraelNN.com) IDF commanders have yet to respond to repeated requests by
soldiers for equipment to remove a Nazi flag from an electric cable next to
an army "pillbox."  

The bright red, white and black Nazi flag with its classic swastika insignia
was discovered by IDF soldiers two days ago, hanging on an electric wire
close to an army guard post near the Palestinian Authority-controlled
village of Beit Omar. 

  <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/blogs/20081214074335.jpg>
According to a source who spoke with Israel National News, the flag is
hanging in the same spot, from wires along Highway 60 in the Hevron area
south of Gush Etzion, where last Saturday there were Hizbullah terrorist
flags waving in the breeze.

"We want the public to see this so people can judge for themselves who we
are dealing with in the Palestinian Authority," said the source, who asked
to remain unnamed for security reasons. "We need special equipment to get it
down, and probably would need the electric company to come." 

Despite soldiers' requests to their company officer for assistance in
getting someone to remove the offensive flag, however, nothing was done. 

"We went to the officer, and he went to the commander," said the source.
"And the commander went to his commander, and he said they would send
someone to take it down. But it is still there, and it is two days later.
And it really annoying to the soldiers, I have to tell you. It is very
offensive - but we have no way to get it down." %ad%

www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> 

C Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com

Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon Dec 15 15:23:51 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:23:51 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Channukah
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS26679DA39E2C8EC1B3FE4BAF40@phx.gbl>
References: <91632B00ECFB41F294C95DC7C9089961@bettylaptop><4945C984.2090000@y7mail.com>
	<BLU125-DS26679DA39E2C8EC1B3FE4BAF40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3D46FF613F774B63B9A390572C9A48E0@bettylaptop>

Pat and Jessica,

 

Thanks for your lovely responses.  Yes, Hanukkah or Chanukah was indeed a
special time for us 20 years ago.  Actually it was 1988, not 1989, as I said
in my earlier email.  I really can do the math, at least on that level
just
a typo error.  At the time, neither of us recognized the significance of the
festival as we lit the candles that night after attending that first Torah
study with Joe Good.  I was appalled that Jesus/Yeshua observed Hanukkah, as
this was something brand new to me, and that was perhaps my very first
?Aha!?  Since then, of course there have been countless other ?discoveries?
in my walk along the Ancient Paths. 

 

But as you said, Jessica about your life when you met Joe Indomenico during
Chanukah 2003, your life was forever changed, so was ours!  Baruch HaShem
for placing such special people in our lives and for connecting us to one
another.  You see, Joe came into your life just when you needed him, and
then several years later, you shared him with us, and we are deeply
appreciative.  I love how HaShem connects us all the dots and all of us
together in such an intricate way!

 

Perhaps, we should follow Ross?s admonition and make comments on the forum.
I have not yet done this, but I understand there is a thread about Hanukkah.
Maybe we could tell some special Hanukkah stories
of why we celebrate (or
don?t chose to celebrate).

 

Anyway, I love this time of year and all that it signifies, yet it is
bittersweet in that it was during Hanukkah that my daughter Kim?s little
Joshua died, yet when I think of him, he was like a little candle, beautiful
and burning brightly and lighting up the darkness during his brief 3 ?
years!  He loved the candles of Shabbat and all the festivals.  I won?t go
into more details, except to say that Kim and I are going to be blessed with
the privilege of lighting the Hanukkah candles together this year on the
first night which will be Dec. 21st.  And we will light them with her
precious little 4 yr old Skipper.

 

For me, Hanukkah has nothing to do with gift giving and the big commercial
hype of trying to compete with Christmas
I love lighting the candles, and
the growing hope that they represent.  I love thinking of the amazing
courage of the Macabbees of old, and the ?miracle of the oil? (even though I
know that may just be tradition), and praying for strength to rededicate
myself to Hashem, and praying fro HaShem to remember the miracles He did of
old and to renew us with miracles for this day. 

 

I do have a Hanukkah prayer miracle regarding my youngest daughter, Amy that
I believe began when HaShem heard our prayers during the ?Festival of
Lights? Hanukkah season as we lit the candles and then answered them during
the following Sukkoth, which is another ?Festival of Lights.?

 

Anyway, just reminiscing and being thankful.  Baruch HaShem that HaShem is
again bringing us ?to this time and this season!?  May it be a joyful one
for all!

 

Love & blessings to all,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:39 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ross & Sunday Shul Tonight!

 

I so loved reading your emails, Betty and Jessica!  And I too am so very
appreciative of the Chanukah season.  It was one of the first things about
Judaism that I learned when I was a Christian.  Back then, I used to refer
to it as the "Get the Greek Out" season!!!!  Through Alexander the Great,
our world was "gifted" with Hellenization.  His legacy surrounds us in our
everyday lives to this day.  It is subtle and insidiously beguiling, and we,
like the Maccabees before us, must fight its influence, which battles with
our Return to the Ancient Path.  

 

Yeshua observed the season of Chanukah (Hebrew word for "Dedication") by
going to the Temple:    "And it was at Jerusalem the Feast of the Dedication
(Chanukah), and it was winter.  And Jesus walked in the Temple in Solomon's
porch."  John 10:22-23

 

This is a Time for remembering and rededicating ourselves to follow the Way
of HaShem through our actions, not just our thoughts.  We need to look to
the Macabbees because they didn't sit back and let the Greek way of life
overtake Jerusalem (or as my granddaughter pronounces it:  Jewsalom!!!!)  

 

Pat 

 

From: Vegemite <mailto:vegemiterose at y7mail.com>  Rose 

Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ross & Sunday Shul Tonight!

 

Betty wrote: " In fact, it was during Hanukkah, 1989 when we were first
introduced to this path.  We have struggled, fallen down countless times,
but continually have been drawn back to HaShem and to His precious Torah
over and over
.For me, during the hard times, it has sometimes been from my
just opening up my Tanach and having a passage or a group of passages ?jump?
out at me ( like Deut 30) and sometimes it has been an email or phone call
from a friend, and other times, it has been a strong and powerful message
such as this!"

Hi Betty,
Indeed Chanukah is a very significant time for me also. I first met Joe at
Chanukah 2003 and my life changed forever. My journey since then has been an
incredible learning curve - at times an unbelievably steep learning curve,
but certainly full of amazing and gobsmacking revelations and experiences. I
have no hesitation in declaring to one and all Betty that HaShem, through
Joe Indomenico his dedicated servant, saved my life at Chanukah 2003.
Physically as well as Spiritually. Baruch HaShem and thank you Joe.
Betty, just like you and Roger, I also have fallen down countless times and
no doubt will continue to do so, since I am a mere mortal. I have learned
however to trust HaShem completely, and I know that when I fall down there
is a lesson being taught and as soon as I learn the lesson, He picks me up
and puts me back on my feet again - and I am a better human mortal than I
was before I fell down. Unfortunately, I don't always remember the lessons
and I guess that's why I keep falling down. Silly old woman that I am.
HaShem is always there for me and I have absolutely no doubt He always will
be there to instruct and guide and protect. We have to keep trusting Him
Betty and remain focussed on His Teachings and follow His ways of right
living. 
I wholeheartedly agree with you Betty - Life with HaShem is indeed well
worth the journey.
Kindest regards,
Jessica


Betty Givin wrote: 

Ross and all,

 

I hope that everyone had a chance to listen to this amazing lesson tonight!
My heart is so full that I really cannot put my thoughts, feelings and
emotions into words.  I truly believe that HaShem guided your thoughts and
your words tonight, Ross.  These are the kind of words that do cause hearts
to ?return? to Torah, G-d and Israel, as the words of Deut 30 so beautifully
express
we, who are responding to this clarion call, are in a far country,
are hearing the words of Torah and they are penetrating our hearts.  As we
are turning, we are returning and HaShem is re-gathering us!  So in essence,
we are actually taking part in a portion of that prophecy being fulfilled.
I encourage all of you to read Deut 30.  It is the last part of the Torah
portion, Nitzavim, which means to ?stand strong!? And it has a very special
place in my heart.

 

Ross, you mentioned last week that you are entering your 20 year mark as a
seeker and a follower of the Ancient Paths.  Roger and I are coming close to
that 20 year mark ourselves.  In fact, it was during Hanukkah, 1989 when we
were first introduced to this path.  We have struggled, fallen down
countless times, but continually have been drawn back to HaShem and to His
precious Torah over and over
.For me, during the hard times, it has
sometimes been from my just opening up my Tanach and having a passage or a
group of passages ?jump? out at me ( like Deut 30) and sometimes it has been
an email or phone call from a friend, and other times, it has been a strong
and powerful message such as this!

 

Again, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, Ross.  Your
word tonight I believe were anointed and I pray that they will reach and
touch every open heart, and even serve to ?open? a heart that might have
been previously closed.  And I also want to encourage all of you who
listened to study and to pray and to continue to learn the ways of  our G-d!
The path is often difficult, but after 20 years, I can truly say with a full
heart, that it is well worth the journey!  

 

The beauty of a message like this, is that no matter how many times it goes
out, and no matter how many times one hears it, it is still fresh, for as
its words reach receptive ears and hearts, it penetrates to another
layer
one closer to the very Heart of G-d!  As the season of Hanukkah
approaches, may we all prepare our hearts to dedicate ourselves to Him!  And
with each candle that we light, may our own individual and collective lights
grow brighter and brighter to light up the dark night!

 

Thank you, Ross, and thank all of you on this list, whose words and posts
continually uplift and encourage the rest of us!

 

Toda rabba, shavua tov,

 

Shalom, Shalom!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 






  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  
  _____  


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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 15:40:19 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:40:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Nazi loving PA
In-Reply-To: <EF1CB2B5ED574C1E9FE789BFAD27E192@bettylaptop>
References: <855590370812150446t79d22a92gbb9ec42efcb54e5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<EF1CB2B5ED574C1E9FE789BFAD27E192@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <855590370812151340i36cb78c2i3073fe7a87fc8d9e@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Betty -

     I've missed you, sweetie!  Just wanted to say a quick 'hi' with a BIG
hug...got to get back to rowing this slave galley...oops, taking it up to
'ramming speed' (think of the movie 'Ben Hur') again...

   Bye for now,
          *  Hanoch
*
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

>
>
> Hanoch, it certainly does not surprise me!  This situation is deplorable
> and the Nazi flag with its hateful Swastika emblem an abomination, very
> appropriate as we remember the "Abomination of Desolation" and the brave
> Maccabbees of old during this upcoming Hanukkah season.  This very well
> could be a sign, or even a "test," as Pat said, of more horrific things to
> come if we and the people on our planet remain apathetic and choose to
> ignore this situation?may history not be repeated!  What can be done to get
> the MEDIA to cover this story?a picture is worth a 1,000 words?that would be
> really all that would be needed.  I have not seen it on any of our media.
> Has anyone?
>
>
>
> Does anyone not know anyone connected to the Israeli media or our media
> here in the U.S?  I just wrote Bill O'Reilly at Fox News...as this is the
> sort of thing that he would cover on his show if he knew about it.  Perhaps
> others could write him as well.  Or write your local newspaper editors.
>
>
>
> *I copied and pasted the email that I sent to Bill O-Reilly below.*  If
> any of you are interested, we could flood his inbox.  And who knows, perhaps
> with so many  emails on the same subject, we might get his attention.  He
> does regularly read his viewers emails on the air, so we do have a chance.
> His address is oreilly at foxnews.com
>
>
>
> Thanks, Hanoch, for this and all your other informative info!  Love and
> appreciate you brother!
>
>
>
> Betty/Elisheva
>
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *Bill,*
>
> * *
>
> *Have you seen this?  This is an abomination!  The swastika symbol stands
> for all that is ugly and base in the world!!!  Surely you and our world
> media need to rise up against this as you have so many other hideous things
> that have gone on.  It is an affront not only to Israel and Jewish people
> all over the world, but to everyone worldwide who has a sense of what is
> decent and good and right.  As a Jew, it sends chills up my spine and fills
> me with anger!  The IDF has done nothing so far?  Why?  Is it because they
> are fearful of loss of life for the ones they send to remove it, fear of
> injuring innocent people in the village if they blast it to shreds, or is it
> because of world opinion?  Please, I beg you, just show this photo on your
> show and add your pithy comments.  If no one else can get people's
> attention, you can!  Of that I am sure!*
>
> * *
>
> *Thank-you,*
>
> * *
>
> *Elisheva**, TX***
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Monday, December 15, 2008 6:47 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Nazi loving PA
>
>
>
> Does this surprise anyone??
>
>                  *  Hanoch*
>
>
>
> *Nazi Flag Flies Unhindered in PA-Controlled Hevron Area*
>
> Kislev 17, 5769, 14 December 08 07:16
>
> by by Hana Levi Julian
>
> (IsraelNN.com) IDF commanders have yet to respond to repeated requests by
> soldiers for equipment to remove a Nazi flag from an electric cable next to
> an army "pillbox."
>
> The bright red, white and black Nazi flag with its classic swastika
> insignia was discovered by IDF soldiers two days ago, hanging on an electric
> wire close to an army guard post near the Palestinian Authority-controlled
> village of Beit Omar.
>
> According to a source who spoke with *Israel National News*, the flag is
> hanging in the same spot, from wires along Highway 60 in the Hevron area
> south of Gush Etzion, where last Saturday there were Hizbullah terrorist
> flags waving in the breeze.
>
> "We want the public to see this so people can judge for themselves who we
> are dealing with in the Palestinian Authority," said the source, who asked
> to remain unnamed for security reasons. "We need special equipment to get it
> down, and probably would need the electric company to come."
>
> Despite soldiers' requests to their company officer for assistance in
> getting someone to remove the offensive flag, however, nothing was done.
>
> "We went to the officer, and he went to the commander," said the source.
> "And the commander went to his commander, and he said they would send
> someone to take it down. But it is still there, and it is two days later.
> And it really annoying to the soldiers, I have to tell you. It is very
> offensive ? but we have no way to get it down." %ad%
>
> www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
>
> (c) Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
>
> Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon Dec 15 16:23:08 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:23:08 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Hanoch, "quick 'hi' back!"
In-Reply-To: <855590370812151340i36cb78c2i3073fe7a87fc8d9e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812150446t79d22a92gbb9ec42efcb54e5d@mail.gmail.com><EF1CB2B5ED574C1E9FE789BFAD27E192@bettylaptop>
	<855590370812151340i36cb78c2i3073fe7a87fc8d9e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490ADA73CA9C410FB312A48F4D4CED89@bettylaptop>

Hey Hanoch, 

 

Thanks for the quick "hi," the BIG hug and the note!  Always nice to know
when we've been missed!  I've missed you and all too.and keep trying to get
caught up!  Since I am not working now, you would think I have all this time
on my hands, but actually it hasn't worked out that way, but that's okay.  I
have been busy catching up on lots of necessary things, and will catch up on
email too.

 

 Wonderful news about Ayala.first Kyra, then Ayala, next comes..YOU!!!  I
know you are excited.  Your girls are beautiful, BTW!  Of course, I know you
know that.  I do hope and pray that you can get out of that slave galley
soon.May it come to pass sooner rather than later.  

 

BIG hug back,

 

Take care,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 3:40 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Nazi loving PA

 

Hey Betty - 

 

     I've missed you, sweetie!  Just wanted to say a quick 'hi' with a BIG
hug...got to get back to rowing this slave galley...oops, taking it up to
'ramming speed' (think of the movie 'Ben Hur') again...

 

   Bye for now,

            Hanoch

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

 

 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 15 18:22:02 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:22:02 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] DISENGAGEMENT AND CONSEQUENCES.
In-Reply-To: <49456C68.80401@westnet.com.au> <49459D7B.2060503@y7mail.com>
References: <49456C68.80401@westnet.com.au> <49459D7B.2060503@y7mail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS2E6B6779CFD544DFBFAC1BAF50@phx.gbl>

Amen!!!  Thank you, Joe.  I'm way behind on my emails, but always look so forward to reading your posts, and appreciate you so much.

Pat


From: Vegemite Rose 
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 6:57 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] DISENGAGEMENT AND CONSEQUENCES.


Thank you so much Joe for your continued positive, spiritually insightful and informative posts. Keep it coming for the sake of His Holy Name and for the salvation of His Holy People and the Land that HaShem promised to Avraham, Yitzchak and Yacov. May His Will be done.
Brachot v'Shalom
Jessica


Joe Indomenico wrote: 
  Shalom Chaverim,

  I recently wrote on the consequences of the post 1967 actions in the Holy Land by the political elite of Israel. 
  In the evaluation I made reference to the Torah and the pattern that set the precedence , ie "the sin of the spies.

  I am posting some articles that were published just prior to the disengagement -"Gerush" of August 2005.

  4 AUGUST 2005

  Bnei Yisrael, the Children of Promise
  Yehoshua ( Joshua ) 5:1-2, 7-11:

  "...the L-rd said to Yehoshua ben Nun, ...arise cross this Jordan, you and all this nation, to the land which I give the children of Israel.

  ...be strong and very courageous to observe and do in accordance with all of the Torah that Moshe My servant has commanded you. Do not stray therefrom right or left, in order that you succeed wherever you go.

  This book of the Torah shall not leave your mouth; you shall meditate therein day and night, in order that you observe to do all that is written in it, for then will you succeed in all your ways and then will you prosper.

  Did I not command you, be strong and have courage, do not fear and do not be dismayed, for the L-rd your G-d is with you wherever you go.

  And Yehoshua commanded the officers of the nation, saying:

  Go through the midst of the camp and command the nation saying: Prepare provision for yourselves, for in another three days you will cross this Jordan to come and inherit the land that the L-rd your G-d is giving you to inherit."

  Bnei Yisrael! It is time to scrap the Israel Defense Forces and re-create the army of HaShem Tzvahot that engages in milchemet mitzvah.

  Just as the Zionism which viewed Eretz Yisrael as a safe haven from anti-semites is dead, so too is the idea of an army which exists solely to defend against aggressors.

  Just as the presence of neo-nazis in Israel has proven the fallacy of the first premise, so too has the onslaught of terrorism on our own soil proven the failure of defense to provide security.

  "...Do not stray there from right or left, in order that you succeed wherever you go."

  'Settling' the Land was only half of the mitzvah...


  Devarim (Deuteronomy )7:1-2, 16-21:

  "When the L-rd, your G-d, brings you into the land to to which you are coming to possess it, He will cast away many nations from before you: ...nations more numerous and powerful than you.

  And the L-rd, your G-d, will deliver them to you, and you shall smite them. You shall utterly destroy them; neither shall you make a covenant with them, nor be gracious to them.

  ... And you shall consume all the peoples which the L-rd your G-d gives you; you shall not spare them, nor shall you worship their gods, for that will be a snare for you.

  Will you say to yourself, "These nations are more numerous than I; how will I be able to drive them out"?

  You shall not fear them. You shall surely remember what the L-rd, your G-d, did to Pharaoh and to all of Egypt:

  The great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, the wonders, the mighty hand, and the outstretched arm with which the L-rd, your G-d, brought you out. So will the L-rd, Your G-d, do to all the peoples you fear.

  And also the tzir'ah, the Lord, your God, will incite against them, until the survivors and those who hide from you perish.

  You shall not be terrified of them, for the L-rd, your G-d, Who is in your midst, is a great and awesome G-d."

  Are we the children of Yehoshua, the inheritors of the promises made to Yaakov? Then we must act like it! We must conquer this Land as if we are the owners and not simply unwelcome guests as over the centuries in galut

  If we will believe it, then our enemies will begin to believe it as well.


  7 AUGUST 2005


  Why are we losing Gaza?
  Motzaei"sh Rosh Chodesh Av

  As G-d-fearing people we are taught that nothing happens to us that does not first receive permission from Heaven. It stands to reason then that if an evil decree is issued against us, we must have done something to deserve it. And the only way to avert it is to repent of the causative error. Hence, the question we only have ten days to answer for ourselves is...

  Why are we losing Gaza?

  See, it's not enough to cry out to G-d and assure him of our general sorrow and aim to repent. We have to confess our specific sin, take every possible action to correct it and resolve not to repeat it. This is the repentance necessary to avert an evil decree like the mass expulsion of 8,000 plus Jews from the Gaza District of Eretz Yisrael.

  On one hand the answer is very simple and obvious, but on the other, it is very difficult to accept in this day and at this time in history. The very parshah we all read in the synagogue today tells us...

  ".. if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the Land from before you, then those whom you leave over will be as spikes in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they will harass you in the land in which you settle. And it will be that what I had intended to do to them, I will do to you. (Bamidbar / Numbers 33:55-56)

  The Artscroll commentary says:

  "G-d declares that the Jews must rid the Land of the corrosive Canaanite presence, and if they fail to do so, they will suffer the fate G-d had intended to impress upon the Canaanites, and be driven out. (Rashbam)"

  We don't really need to identify today's Palestinians as ancient Canaanites in order to see that since we did not drive them out in 1967, we are today being driven out before them.

  In the forty years that Jews have been resettling Gaza, has anyone made any efforts toward fulfilling this Torah commandment? Or did the Jews of Gaza, like the rest of the Jewish people throughout the Land of Israel, repeat the same mistakes of the ancient past by allowing these people to remain and even encouraging them through offers of employment? Some Gazan Jews have commended themselves for their humanity in going so far as to even socialize with Palestinians over the years.

  It is for this that teshuva must be done and for the hubris which made us think we knew better than the L-rd of the Land---HaShem.

  So, why are we losing Gaza with the Northern Shomron to follow? Very simply because two opposing peoples cannot live together in this Land. Either they must go or we will. Either we drive them out or HaShem will drive us out. That is the Torah direct from the mouth of God.

  Can thousands of Jews reach this conclusion and wholeheartedly embrace these words in the ten days that are left to us? That is the first step. If HaShem sees we mean business, perhaps He will show mercy and defer the expulsion until we can take the second step---the establishment of a Jewish government which will enact this Torah Law for the benefit of the Jewish people on every inch of soil in the Jewish homeland.

  If the very idea is too much for you to wrap your brain around and you would prefer to give up Gaza rather than go to the next level of the redemption process, then there's no real hope to stop it. We are forbidden to depend upon miracles and right now, short of true repentance, that's all we've got.

  With great hope until the very end~

  2008 UPDATE: Have we learned anything in the last three years? Or must we relive it yet again with Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem?

  Very sobering thoughts as we continue down this road of sheer insanity.
  Will we ever learn ?
  Time for individual teshuva ....... with HaShem's mercy on a national basis.

  Shalom v'Ahavah
  JOE.

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon Dec 15 21:09:48 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:09:48 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS5A319A77AAC00558F9131BAF40@phx.gbl>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>	<01a701c95eb4$4ea68570$ebf39050$@com>
	<BLU125-DS5A319A77AAC00558F9131BAF40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <021901c95f2b$c53f6b30$4fbe4190$@com>

Hi All and thanks for your help. What do you think about a bough of grapes
like Caleb and Joshua carried?

 

http://www.wcg.org/lit/bible/law/art/etwog58.gif

 

Patty

 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 15 21:31:31 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:31:31 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>	<01a701c95eb4$4ea68570$ebf39050$@com><BLU125-DS5A319A77AAC00558F9131BAF40@phx.gbl>
	<021901c95f2b$c53f6b30$4fbe4190$@com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>	<01a701c95eb4$4ea68570$ebf39050$@com><BLU125-DS5A319A77AAC00558F9131BAF40@phx.gbl>
	<021901c95f2b$c53f6b30$4fbe4190$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS4C04EEB7EDBF98612D6B6BAF50@phx.gbl>

ABSOLUTELY ADORE IT, PATTY!!!!!  In fact, I was going to ask you about that very same thing.  This is a gorgeous picture below.  I know that the two men with the cluster of grapes is the official Israeli tourism symbol - or at least it used to be.  I can't seem to find it anywhere to show you how it looks.  Its very different from the picture below though.  Would there be any conflict with Ephraim using this same idea, do you think?  I surely hope not.

Thank you so much for this wonderful idea,

Pat




From: Patty 
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:09 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim


Hi All and thanks for your help. What do you think about a bough of grapes like Caleb and Joshua carried?

 



 

Patty

 



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From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 15 23:36:23 2008
From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:36:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com>
Message-ID: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

take a look at my banner of Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Betty Eddy
  
      
   

--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM




 
 







Shalom All! 

In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album,
I have been looking at Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have
found much artwork on the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe
of Joseph.? In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read:  

Gen 41:52???
And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath caused me to
be fruitful in the land of my affliction." 

Gen 48:20?? And he
blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel bless, saying, 'God
make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set Ephraim before
Manasseh.

21??? And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die:
but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your
fathers.

22??? Moreover I have given to thee one portion
above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my
sword and with my bow." 

 ? 

So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly
fruitful. 

A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia
and has sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be
DOUBLE blessed?. 

 

The back of a current Israeli coin: 

 

Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia
may be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans: 

 

I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for
Ephraim - a new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here
ready to begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking
forward to comments. 

Patty 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 

 ? 



 

_______________________________________________



      
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec 16 01:12:07 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:12:07 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <021901c95f2b$c53f6b30$4fbe4190$@com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>	<01a701c95eb4$4ea68570$ebf39050$@com><BLU125-DS5A319A77AAC00558F9131BAF40@phx.gbl>
	<021901c95f2b$c53f6b30$4fbe4190$@com>
Message-ID: <121620080712.3115.494754C70003A9A200000C2B22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Patty,

I think the cluster of grapes is agreat idea, how about two clusters?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 


Hi All and thanks for your help. What do you think about a bough of grapes like Caleb and Joshua carried?
 

 
Patty
 
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 06:55:24 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 04:55:24 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] The Priestly Blessing..Shlomo Katz & Rav Lazer Brody
Message-ID: <855590370812160455o679df09jd86e7edd426b70e7@mail.gmail.com>

Boker Tov L'Kulchem,

     A chance for us all to wake up to a bracha (blessing).....the ultimate
bracha.

                    *  Hanoch*
 Tuesday, 16 December 2008 Birkat Cohanim: The Priestly
Blessing<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/12/birkat-cohanim-the-priestly-blessing.html>

Close your eyes, and imagine that we're together in the Holy Temple in
rebuilt Jerusalem. Here is a blessing for all of our viewers and readers,
from the mouth of a "Cohen", a member of Israel's priestly tribe, my
cherished friend with the golden honey-coated voice, Shlomo Katz.
Click here: YouTube - Shlomo Katz and Rabbi Lazer Brody: The Priestly
Blessing<http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IV1f4nJ3kIE&eurl=http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/>
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 07:55:44 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:55:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com>
	<290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <025e01c95f85$ff258d70$fd70a850$@com>

Hi Betty,

 

Very beautiful work indeed. I am thinking of a double-cluster of grapes for
Ephraim to represent doubly bountiful. Would you be interested in doing
something new? 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Eddy
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:36 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 


take a look at my banner of Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to
bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Betty Eddy

 

 



--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM

Shalom All!

In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at
Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on
the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.
In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 

Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath
caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."

Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel
bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set
Ephraim before Manasseh.
21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with
you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I
took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."

 

So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has
sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE
blessed..



The back of a current Israeli coin:



Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may
be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:

 
<http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference
/jewish/jewish28a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/
anc-jewish.htm&usg=__ozkm07V4CXFtyg8ixX7WdoMAGdI=&h=236&w=421&sz=15&hl=en&st
art=38&tbnid=tMfAxiXkZOo0DM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddouble%2Bco
rnucopia%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN> 

I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a
new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to
begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to
comments.

Patty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________

 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 07:58:18 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:58:18 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>

These are sooooooooooo beautiful, Betty!!!!  I love the huge sheave of wheat at the top representing Joseph.  ~ Pat


From: Betty Eddy 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:36 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim


      take a look at my banner of Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the bottom of the page.


      Betty Eddy







      --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

        From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
        Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM


        Shalom All!

        In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.  In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 

        Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."

        Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
        21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
        22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."



        So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

        A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE blessed?.



        The back of a current Israeli coin:



        Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:



        I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to comments.

        Patty





































_______________________________________________ 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 08:11:27 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:11:27 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] FYI: Quote of the Day
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>

"[The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land
by any but spiritual means." ~ Rabbi S. R. Hirsch

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 08:21:58 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:21:58 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] FYI: Quote of the Day
In-Reply-To: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>

Would very much appreciate seeing the full teaching of R. Hirsch on this subject, Patty.  HaShem did have Israel go in and drive out the inhabitants of the Land to possess it.  I respect R. Hirsch very much and am most interested in what he teaches us. 

Thank you for this,

Pat


From: Patty 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:11 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] FYI: Quote of the Day


"[The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means." ~ Rabbi S. R. Hirsch



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
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From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 16 08:38:57 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 06:38:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <525220.2758.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I'm inclined toward the wheat. 
Tracy




________________________________
From: Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:58:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim


These are sooooooooooo beautiful, Betty!!!!? I love the huge sheave of wheat at the top representing Joseph.? ~ Pat


From: Betty Eddy 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:36 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

take a look at my banner of Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the bottom of the page.


Betty Eddy




--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM


Shalom All!
In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.? In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 
Gen 41:52??? And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."
Gen 48:20?? And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
21??? And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22??? Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."
?
So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.
A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE blessed?.
The back of a current Israeli coin:
Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:
I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to comments.
Patty
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
_______________________________________________
 

________________________________
_______________________________________________



      
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 08:46:01 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:46:01 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] FYI: Quote of the Day
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>
	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <028401c95f8d$05361e30$0fa25a90$@com>


Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch


Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

 

As the most renowned German Jewish leader of the nineteenth century, Rabbi
Samson Raphael Hirsch wrote: 

"We mourn over the sin which brought about that downfall (the Temple
destruction -- author), we take to heart the harshness which we have
encountered in our years of wandering as the chastisement of a father,
imposed on us for our improvement, and we mourn the lack of observance of
the Torah which that ruin has brought about. Not in order to shine as a
nation among nations do we raise our prayers and hopes for a reunion in our
land, but in order to find a soil for the better fulfillment of our
spiritual vocation in that reunion and in that land which was promised, and
given, and again promised for our observance of the Torah. But this very
vocation obliges us, until G-d shall call us back to the Holy Land, to live
and to work as patriots wherever He has placed us, to collect all the
physical, material and spiritual forces and all that is noble in Israel to
further the weal of the nations which have given us shelter. It obliges us,
further, to allow our longing for the far-off land to express itself only in
mourning, in wishing and hoping; and only through the honest fulfillment of
all Jewish duties to await the realization of this hope. But it forbids us
to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual
means. Our Sages say G-d imposed three vows when he sent Israel into the
wilderness: (1) that the children of Israel shall never seek to reestablish
their nation by themselves; (2) that they never be disloyal to the nations
which have given them shelter; (3) that these nations shall not oppress them
excessively (Kesubos 111a)."

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:22 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FYI: Quote of the Day

 

Would very much appreciate seeing the full teaching of R. Hirsch on this
subject, Patty.  HaShem did have Israel go in and drive out the inhabitants
of the Land to possess it.  I respect R. Hirsch very much and am most
interested in what he teaches us. 

 

Thank you for this,

 

Pat

 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:11 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] FYI: Quote of the Day

 

"[The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land
by any but spiritual means." ~ Rabbi S. R. Hirsch

  _____  

_______________________________________________

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 08:47:59 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:47:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>
	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>

"During the reign of Hadrian when the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a
disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for
all times of an important, essential fact, namely that (the people of)
Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its
own power; it was to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine
Providence."

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 08:48:34 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:48:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <525220.2758.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<525220.2758.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <029b01c95f8d$60c5c110$22514330$@com>

But you can't make wine out of wheat.J

 

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:39 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 

I'm inclined toward the wheat. 

Tracy

 

  _____  

From: Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:58:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

These are sooooooooooo beautiful, Betty!!!!  I love the huge sheave of wheat
at the top representing Joseph.  ~ Pat

 

From: Betty Eddy <mailto:betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com>  

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:36 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 


take a look at my banner of Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to
bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Betty Eddy

 

 



--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM

Shalom All!

In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at
Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on
the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.
In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 

Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath
caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."

Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel
bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set
Ephraim before Manasseh.
21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with
you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I
took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."

 

So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has
sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE
blessed..



The back of a current Israeli coin:



Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may
be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:

 
<http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference
/jewish/jewish28a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/
anc-jewish.htm&usg=__ozkm07V4CXFtyg8ixX7WdoMAGdI=&h=236&w=421&sz=15&hl=en&st
art=38&tbnid=tMfAxiXkZOo0DM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddouble%2Bco
rnucopia%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN> 

I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a
new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to
begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to
comments.

Patty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

 

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From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 16 09:48:17 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:48:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<525220.2758.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<029b01c95f8d$60c5c110$22514330$@com>
Message-ID: <778964.96221.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

This is true. Wheat makes bread...maybe use them both...
Gen 14:18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he wasthe priest of the most high God.



________________________________
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:48:34 AM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim


But you can?t make wine out of wheat?J
?
?
?
From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:39 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
?
I'm inclined toward the wheat. 
Tracy
?

________________________________

From:Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:58:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
These are sooooooooooo beautiful, Betty!!!!? I love the huge sheave of wheat at the top representing Joseph.? ~ Pat
?
From:Betty Eddy 
Sent:Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:36 AM
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject:Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
?
take a look at my banner of Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the bottom of the page.
Betty Eddy
?
?


--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM
Shalom All!
In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.? In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 
Gen 41:52??? And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."
Gen 48:20?? And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
21??? And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22??? Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."
?
So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.
A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE blessed?.
The back of a current Israeli coin:
Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:
I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to comments.
Patty
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
_______________________________________________ 
?

________________________________

_______________________________________________


      
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 10:05:09 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:05:09 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <778964.96221.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<525220.2758.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<029b01c95f8d$60c5c110$22514330$@com>
	<778964.96221.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02c401c95f98$14a42820$3dec7860$@com>

Great idea Tracy!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:48 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 

This is true. Wheat makes bread...maybe use them both...
<http://mail.yimg.com/a/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif> 

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he
was the priest of the most high God.

 

  _____  

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:48:34 AM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

But you can't make wine out of wheat.J

 

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:39 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 

I'm inclined toward the wheat. 

Tracy

 

  _____  

From: Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:58:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

These are sooooooooooo beautiful, Betty!!!!  I love the huge sheave of wheat
at the top representing Joseph.  ~ Pat

 

From: Betty Eddy <mailto:betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com>  

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:36 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 


take a look at my banner of Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to
bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Betty Eddy

 

 



--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM

Shalom All!

In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at
Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on
the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.
In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 

Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath
caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."

Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel
bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set
Ephraim before Manasseh.
21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with
you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I
took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."

 

So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has
sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE
blessed..



The back of a current Israeli coin:



Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may
be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:

 
<http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference
/jewish/jewish28a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/
anc-jewish.htm&usg=__ozkm07V4CXFtyg8ixX7WdoMAGdI=&h=236&w=421&sz=15&hl=en&st
art=38&tbnid=tMfAxiXkZOo0DM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddouble%2Bco
rnucopia%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN> 

I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a
new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to
begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to
comments.

Patty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

 

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 10:53:51 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:53:51 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....
In-Reply-To: <029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>
	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>
Message-ID: <855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>

Okay, this is a classic misunderstanding, because the "3 oaths" that the
Jewish people were supposed to be under ('not to return as a nation, etc')
were INVALIDATED because it was CONTINGENT UPON the nations 'not oppressing
us too much.' I think the history of forced conversions, economic boycotts,
murder, rapes, pogroms, etc prove THAT!

R' Hirsch is WRONG...and when I get home this evening (hopefully before
midnight..), I will write the sources for you.  Hirsch was the leader of
"neo-orthodoxy in Germany,' and was one of the main opponents to the Reform
movement.  However, in this case he is SO WRONG....had he lived in the 20th
Century he would have been murdered by the Nazis...

It's Rabbinical thinking like *that *which caused countless Jews who had a
chance to leave Europe, stay.

    *       Hanoch
*
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

>  "During the reign of Hadrian when the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a
> disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for
> all times of an important, essential fact, namely that (the people of)
> Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its
> own power; it was to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine
> Providence."
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 11:16:07 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:16:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....
In-Reply-To: <855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>
	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>

Okay, Hanoch, don't type angry J!!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:54 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....

 

Okay, this is a classic misunderstanding, because the "3 oaths" that the
Jewish people were supposed to be under ('not to return as a nation, etc')
were INVALIDATED because it was CONTINGENT UPON the nations 'not oppressing
us too much.' I think the history of forced conversions, economic boycotts,
murder, rapes, pogroms, etc prove THAT!

 

R' Hirsch is WRONG...and when I get home this evening (hopefully before
midnight..), I will write the sources for you.  Hirsch was the leader of
"neo-orthodoxy in Germany,' and was one of the main opponents to the Reform
movement.  However, in this case he is SO WRONG....had he lived in the 20th
Century he would have been murdered by the Nazis...

 

It's Rabbinical thinking like that which caused countless Jews who had a
chance to leave Europe, stay. 

 

           Hanoch

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

"During the reign of Hadrian when the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a
disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for
all times of an important, essential fact, namely that (the people of)
Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its
own power; it was to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine
Providence."


_______________________________________________

 

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 11:26:57 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:26:57 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>
	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>
Message-ID: <02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>

Shalom all,

 

Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not
write it, but the author can be contacted:

 

www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html

 

Patty

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 11:37:05 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:37:05 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....
In-Reply-To: <855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>
	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <030001c95fa4$eb76b370$c2641a50$@com>

Hi Hanoch,

 

While I don't TOTALLY disagree with you, I think there is a big difference
between fleeing and taking a country by force.  I would just like to
consider, not what I said, not what Yeshu said, but what other fellow Jews
said.

 

Peace..Shalom,

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:54 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....

 

Okay, this is a classic misunderstanding, because the "3 oaths" that the
Jewish people were supposed to be under ('not to return as a nation, etc')
were INVALIDATED because it was CONTINGENT UPON the nations 'not oppressing
us too much.' I think the history of forced conversions, economic boycotts,
murder, rapes, pogroms, etc prove THAT!

 

R' Hirsch is WRONG...and when I get home this evening (hopefully before
midnight..), I will write the sources for you.  Hirsch was the leader of
"neo-orthodoxy in Germany,' and was one of the main opponents to the Reform
movement.  However, in this case he is SO WRONG....had he lived in the 20th
Century he would have been murdered by the Nazis...

 

It's Rabbinical thinking like that which caused countless Jews who had a
chance to leave Europe, stay. 

 

           Hanoch

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

"During the reign of Hadrian when the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a
disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for
all times of an important, essential fact, namely that (the people of)
Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its
own power; it was to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine
Providence."


_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 11:54:30 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:54:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....
In-Reply-To: <02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>
	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>
	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>
	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>
Message-ID: <855590370812160954s576f7a30sb23adfae822b6039@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Patty -

     I'm not angry at you, not too worry!   :-)

          *  Hanoch
*
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

>  Okay, Hanoch, don't type angry J!!
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:54 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....
>
>
>
> Okay, this is a classic misunderstanding, because the "3 oaths" that the
> Jewish people were supposed to be under ('not to return as a nation, etc')
> were INVALIDATED because it was CONTINGENT UPON the nations 'not oppressing
> us too much.' I think the history of forced conversions, economic boycotts,
> murder, rapes, pogroms, etc prove THAT!
>
>
>
> R' Hirsch is WRONG...and when I get home this evening (hopefully before
> midnight..), I will write the sources for you.  Hirsch was the leader of
> "neo-orthodoxy in Germany,' and was one of the main opponents to the Reform
> movement.  However, in this case he is SO WRONG....had he lived in the 20th
> Century he would have been murdered by the Nazis...
>
>
>
> It's Rabbinical thinking like *that *which caused countless Jews who had a
> chance to leave Europe, stay.
>
>
>
>     *       Hanoch*
>
> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:
>
> "During the reign of Hadrian when the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a
> disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for
> all times of an important, essential fact, namely that (the people of)
> Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its
> own power; it was to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine
> Providence."
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 11:58:14 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:58:14 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....
In-Reply-To: <855590370812160954s576f7a30sb23adfae822b6039@mail.gmail.com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>
	<855590370812160954s576f7a30sb23adfae822b6039@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <031401c95fa7$dfd64af0$9f82e0d0$@com>

Okay bro, and please note that this is something I have been currently
studying and considering. I think that the coming about of State of Israel
was necessary, but the Return to Torah is necessary for the Kingdom to
return.

 

Love,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....

 

Hi Patty - 

 

     I'm not angry at you, not too worry!   :-)

 

            Hanoch

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

Okay, Hanoch, don't type angry J!!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:54 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....

 

Okay, this is a classic misunderstanding, because the "3 oaths" that the
Jewish people were supposed to be under ('not to return as a nation, etc')
were INVALIDATED because it was CONTINGENT UPON the nations 'not oppressing
us too much.' I think the history of forced conversions, economic boycotts,
murder, rapes, pogroms, etc prove THAT!

 

R' Hirsch is WRONG...and when I get home this evening (hopefully before
midnight..), I will write the sources for you.  Hirsch was the leader of
"neo-orthodoxy in Germany,' and was one of the main opponents to the Reform
movement.  However, in this case he is SO WRONG....had he lived in the 20th
Century he would have been murdered by the Nazis...

 

It's Rabbinical thinking like that which caused countless Jews who had a
chance to leave Europe, stay. 

 

           Hanoch

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

"During the reign of Hadrian when the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a
disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for
all times of an important, essential fact, namely that (the people of)
Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its
own power; it was to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine
Providence."


_______________________________________________

 


_______________________________________________

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 12:08:23 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:08:23 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>
	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>
	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>
	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>
	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>
Message-ID: <855590370812161008kaf5e774sc2d848bbe2daa82f@mail.gmail.com>

As an FYI to all: this is from the Neturei Karta (Aramaic for "Guardians of
the City") organization of " anti-Zionists."  I put quotation marks around
"anti-Zionists" because you *cannot* be Jewish and be "anti-Zionist."  These
are the scum who wave PLO flags at demonstrations, and *stand alongside
those who support and cheer the murder of Jewish men, women and children in
Israel.*

*These are the manure who went to Iran to kiss the new Hitler on the cheek*.
*These* are the 'people' behind that article.  They're only lucky that they
have 2 full lines of NYPD riot equipped cops protecting them at these
demonstrations...

        *        Hanoch
*                                   (not 'angry,' just astounded..)
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

>  Shalom all,
>
>
>
> Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not
> write it, but the author can be contacted:
>
>
>
> www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html
>
>
>
> Patty
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 12:17:19 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:17:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....
In-Reply-To: <031401c95fa7$dfd64af0$9f82e0d0$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>
	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>
	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>
	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>
	<855590370812160954s576f7a30sb23adfae822b6039@mail.gmail.com>
	<031401c95fa7$dfd64af0$9f82e0d0$@com>
Message-ID: <855590370812161017n49394a18gbce5b654dfe2624@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Patty,

    All I keep thinking of, is what would have happened if in 1939 (or
1938..), armed Jewish fighters would have conquered Eretz Yisrael (the Land
of Israel) from the British occupiers.  How many European Jews would have
had a refuge to go to, instead of being gassed and incinerated?  One
million? Two million??  And how many descendants of theirs would be alive
today??

    For some this may be an academic exercise, for me it's something totally
different.  Yes, a return to Torah IS necessary, but it's Torat Eretz
Yisrael (the Torah of the Land of Israel) that is ALIVE and VIBRANT.  Dead
Jews don't learn Torah....

  * Hanoch
*
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

>  Okay bro, and please note that this is something I have been currently
> studying and considering. I think that the coming about of State of Israel
> was necessary, but the Return to Torah is necessary for the Kingdom to
> return.
>
>
>
> Love,
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:55 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....
>
>
>
> Hi Patty -
>
>
>
>      I'm not angry at you, not too worry!   :-)
>
>
>
>           *  Hanoch*
>
> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:
>
> Okay, Hanoch, don't type angry J!!
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:54 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....
>
>
>
> Okay, this is a classic misunderstanding, because the "3 oaths" that the
> Jewish people were supposed to be under ('not to return as a nation, etc')
> were INVALIDATED because it was CONTINGENT UPON the nations 'not oppressing
> us too much.' I think the history of forced conversions, economic boycotts,
> murder, rapes, pogroms, etc prove THAT!
>
>
>
> R' Hirsch is WRONG...and when I get home this evening (hopefully before
> midnight..), I will write the sources for you.  Hirsch was the leader of
> "neo-orthodoxy in Germany,' and was one of the main opponents to the Reform
> movement.  However, in this case he is SO WRONG....had he lived in the 20th
> Century he would have been murdered by the Nazis...
>
>
>
> It's Rabbinical thinking like *that *which caused countless Jews who had a
> chance to leave Europe, stay.
>
>
>
>     *       Hanoch*
>
> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:
>
> "During the reign of Hadrian when the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a
> disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for
> all times of an important, essential fact, namely that (the people of)
> Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its
> own power; it was to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine
> Providence."
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 12:17:21 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:17:21 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Land vs. Kingdom (was Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism)
In-Reply-To: <855590370812161008kaf5e774sc2d848bbe2daa82f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>
	<855590370812161008kaf5e774sc2d848bbe2daa82f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <032801c95faa$8b4f9f60$a1eede20$@com>

Hi Hanoch,

 

I think that Zionism has different meanings for different people. I am a
Zionist in the way that I am for the Nation of Israel and the Return to
Zion, but Shimon Peres is also a Zionist. They have the Land, but they
certainly don't have the KINGDOM.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:08 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

As an FYI to all: this is from the Neturei Karta (Aramaic for "Guardians of
the City") organization of " anti-Zionists."  I put quotation marks around
"anti-Zionists" because you cannot be Jewish and be "anti-Zionist."  These
are the scum who wave PLO flags at demonstrations, and stand alongside those
who support and cheer the murder of Jewish men, women and children in
Israel.

 

These are the manure who went to Iran to kiss the new Hitler on the cheek.
These are the 'people' behind that article.  They're only lucky that they
have 2 full lines of NYPD riot equipped cops protecting them at these
demonstrations...

 

                Hanoch
                                   (not 'angry,' just astounded..)

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

Shalom all,

 

Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not
write it, but the author can be contacted:

 

www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html

 

Patty


_______________________________________________

 

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 12:19:21 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:19:21 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....
In-Reply-To: <855590370812161017n49394a18gbce5b654dfe2624@mail.gmail.com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<855590370812160954s576f7a30sb23adfae822b6039@mail.gmail.com>	<031401c95fa7$dfd64af0$9f82e0d0$@com>
	<855590370812161017n49394a18gbce5b654dfe2624@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <033301c95faa$d304dc80$790e9580$@com>

Hi Hanoch,

 

Just like I said, I think it may have been necessary  to get the Land, but
this may not be the way to get the Kingdom.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:17 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....

 

Hey Patty,

 

    All I keep thinking of, is what would have happened if in 1939 (or
1938..), armed Jewish fighters would have conquered Eretz Yisrael (the Land
of Israel) from the British occupiers.  How many European Jews would have
had a refuge to go to, instead of being gassed and incinerated?  One
million? Two million??  And how many descendants of theirs would be alive
today??

 

    For some this may be an academic exercise, for me it's something totally
different.  Yes, a return to Torah IS necessary, but it's Torat Eretz
Yisrael (the Torah of the Land of Israel) that is ALIVE and VIBRANT.  Dead
Jews don't learn Torah....

 

   Hanoch  

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

Okay bro, and please note that this is something I have been currently
studying and considering. I think that the coming about of State of Israel
was necessary, but the Return to Torah is necessary for the Kingdom to
return.

 

Love,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:55 PM 


To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....

 

Hi Patty - 

 

     I'm not angry at you, not too worry!   :-)

 

            Hanoch

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

Okay, Hanoch, don't type angry J!!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:54 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Rabbi Hirsch Continues....

 

Okay, this is a classic misunderstanding, because the "3 oaths" that the
Jewish people were supposed to be under ('not to return as a nation, etc')
were INVALIDATED because it was CONTINGENT UPON the nations 'not oppressing
us too much.' I think the history of forced conversions, economic boycotts,
murder, rapes, pogroms, etc prove THAT!

 

R' Hirsch is WRONG...and when I get home this evening (hopefully before
midnight..), I will write the sources for you.  Hirsch was the leader of
"neo-orthodoxy in Germany,' and was one of the main opponents to the Reform
movement.  However, in this case he is SO WRONG....had he lived in the 20th
Century he would have been murdered by the Nazis...

 

It's Rabbinical thinking like that which caused countless Jews who had a
chance to leave Europe, stay. 

 

           Hanoch

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

"During the reign of Hadrian when the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a
disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for
all times of an important, essential fact, namely that (the people of)
Israel must never again attempt to restore its national independence by its
own power; it was to entrust its future as a nation solely to Divine
Providence."


_______________________________________________

 


_______________________________________________

 


_______________________________________________

 

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 14:33:51 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:33:51 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Who Will Bring Israel Home? What will be the Sign? 
In-Reply-To: <033301c95faa$d304dc80$790e9580$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<855590370812160954s576f7a30sb23adfae822b6039@mail.gmail.com>	<031401c95fa7$dfd64af0$9f82e0d0$@com>	<855590370812161017n49394a18gbce5b654dfe2624@mail.gmail.com>
	<033301c95faa$d304dc80$790e9580$@com>
Message-ID: <035b01c95fbd$9cd56c20$d6804460$@com>

Shalom All,

 

Many think that one of the criterion of Messiah is that he will gather the
Tribes home to Israel, but in fact we read that it is YHWH Himself who
gathers and brings them home - Messiah will be an "ensign":

 

Isaiah 11

[10] And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for
an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall
be glorious.
[11] And it shall come to pass in that day, that YHWH shall set his hand
again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be
left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and
from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the
sea.

12] And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four
corners of the earth.
[13] The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah
shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex
Ephraim.

 

Ezekiel 34

[11] For thus says YHWH Elohim; Behold, I, even I, will both search my
sheep, and seek them out.
[12] As a shepherd seeks out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep
that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out
of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
[13] And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the
countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the
mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the
country.
[14] I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of
Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a
fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
[15] I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, says YHWH.

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

 

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From rndavar at aol.com  Tue Dec 16 14:37:11 2008
From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:37:11 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Who Will Bring Israel Home? What will be the Sign?
In-Reply-To: <035b01c95fbd$9cd56c20$d6804460$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<855590370812160954s576f7a30sb23adfae822b6039@mail.gmail.com>	<031401c95fa7$dfd64af0$9f82e0d0$@com>	<855590370812161017n49394a18gbce5b654dfe2624@mail.gmail.com><033301c95faa$d304dc80$790e9580$@com><035b01c95fbd$9cd56c20$d6804460$@com>
Message-ID: <1184934615-1229459741-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-140824254-@bxe114.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Coming soon on Sunday Shul.....stayed tuned for more information.;)
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:33:51 
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Who Will Bring Israel Home? What will be the Sign? 


_______________________________________________



From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec 16 14:38:38 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:38:38 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Who Will Bring Israel Home? What will be the Sign? 
In-Reply-To: <035b01c95fbd$9cd56c20$d6804460$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<855590370812160954s576f7a30sb23adfae822b6039@mail.gmail.com>	<031401c95fa7$dfd64af0$9f82e0d0$@com>	<855590370812161017n49394a18gbce5b654dfe2624@mail.gmail.com><033301c95faa$d304dc80$790e9580$@com>
Message-ID: <121620082038.23068.494811CD000DBC8A00005A1C22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

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Exactly Patty.

--
John C.=20

"Be excellent to each other!"=20
Bill and Ted=20


-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------=
-------=20


Shalom All,
=20
Many think that one of the criterion of Messiah is that he will gather the =
Tribes home to Israel, but in fact we read that it is YHWH Himself who gath=
ers and brings them home =E2=80=93 Messiah will be an =E2=80=9Censign=E2=80=
=9D:
=20
Isaiah 11
[10] And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for =
an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall =
be glorious.
[11] And it shall come to pass in that day, that YHWH shall set his hand ag=
ain the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be le=
ft, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from=
 Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12] And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the o=
utcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four=
 corners of the earth.
[13] The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah sh=
all be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephra=
im.
=20
Ezekiel 34
[11] For thus says YHWH Elohim; Behold, I, even I, will both search my shee=
p, and seek them out.
[12] As a shepherd seeks out his flock in the day that he is among his shee=
p that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them ou=
t of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
[13] And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the co=
untries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the moun=
tains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the count=
ry.
[14] I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Isr=
ael shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat =
pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
[15] I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, says YHWH.
=20
Blessings,
Patty
=20
=20
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_23068_1229459918_0
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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Exactly Patty.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dsignature id=3Dsignature>--<BR>John C. <BR><BR>"Be excellent t=
o each other!" <BR>Bill and Ted <BR></DIV><!--&lt;BR&gt;-->
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #101=
0ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message from "Patty " &lt;ptyler at aac=
-usa.com&gt;: -------------- <BR><BR>
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<P class=3DMsoNormal>Shalom All,<?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D "urn:sc=
hemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Many think that one of the criterion of Messiah is tha=
t he will gather the Tribes home to Israel, but in fact we read that it is =
YHWH Himself who gathers and brings them home =E2=80=93 Messiah will be an =
=E2=80=9Censign=E2=80=9D:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B>Isaiah 11<o:p></o:p></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>[<B>10</B>] And in that day there shall be a <B>root o=
f Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people</B>; to it shall the=
 Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.<BR>[<B>11</B>] And it shall=
 come to pass in that day, <B>that YHWH shall set his hand again the second=
 time to recover the remnant of his people,</B> which shall be left, from A=
ssyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and=
 from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.<o:p></o:p><=
/P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B>12</B>] And He <B>shall set up an ensign for the na=
tions, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the d=
ispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.</B><BR>[<B>13</B>] Th=
e envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be =
cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.<o:p=
></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-F=
AMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B>Ezekiel 34<o:p></o:p></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>[<B>11</B>] <B>For thus says YHWH Elohim;</B> <B>Behol=
d, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.<BR></B>[<B>12</=
B>] As a shepherd seeks out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep=
 that are scattered; <B>so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them =
out of all places where they have been scattered</B> in the cloudy and dark=
 day.<BR>[<B>13</B>] And <B>I will bring them out from the people, and gath=
er them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed=
 them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited =
places of the country.<BR></B>[<B>14</B>] I will feed them in a good pastur=
e, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall t=
hey lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mount=
ains of Israel.<BR>[<B>15</B>] I will feed my flock, and I will cause them =
to lie down, says YHWH.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Blessings,<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Patty<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-F=
AMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUO=
TE>
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec 16 15:44:33 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:44:33 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.
Message-ID: <121620082144.18950.494821410002DD4100004A0622243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey folks,

Short update today.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 15:57:59 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:57:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.
In-Reply-To: <121620082144.18950.494821410002DD4100004A0622243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <121620082144.18950.494821410002DD4100004A0622243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS272F2B32B53610CEAA6A4BAF50@phx.gbl>

Amen, John. Yad Vashem changes ones perspective on the world.

Pat  


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:44 PM
To: Dialogue 
Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.


Hey folks,

Short update today.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 16 17:05:33 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:05:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Funny
Message-ID: <346542.56351.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1791939



      
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Dec 16 17:35:18 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:35:18 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS272F2B32B53610CEAA6A4BAF50@phx.gbl>
References: <121620082144.18950.494821410002DD4100004A0622243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<BLU125-DS272F2B32B53610CEAA6A4BAF50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <65FD0442ECAF4D3CB0C0E414E0B85FD1@bettylaptop>

Hey Eliron,

 

It seems that since you are in the Land that your Hebrew name would be
appropriate here, especially after what you witnessed this day with your
visit to Yad VaShem.  I came away with a similar feeling.no words to
describe after visiting the Holocaust Memorial Museum here in Dallas a
number of years ago, and I am sure that Yad VaShem was even more soul
retching.

 

I just don't think we can ever, ever imagine the horrific things that were
done to so many innocent people who suffered beyond words.and why?   Because
they were Jews.like the Jews in Mumbai.they were tortured and they died
simply because they were Jews.  Baseless hatred can never be understood
except by those who possess it and blindly choose to carry it out!

 

I was astounded by the figure that was recently quoted on another list.2
million of the Jewish victims that died still remain NAMELESS!   As the
number of living Holocaust survivors dwindles, we have an even stronger
responsibility to keep their memories alive and to do all that we can to see
that this never, never happens again.

 

I can see how a visit to Yad VaShem changes ones perspective on the
world.how very sobering.

 

Indeed we must never forget.we must charge ourselves and one another to
always remember!

 

Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:58 PM
To: Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.

 

Amen, John. Yad Vashem changes ones perspective on the world.

 

Pat  

 

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:44 PM

To: Dialogue <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>  

Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.

 

Hey folks,

 

Short update today.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

  _____  

size=2 width="100%" align=center> 

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From Correim at gninc.ca  Tue Dec 16 17:42:35 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:42:35 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>
	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>
Message-ID: <49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>


Hi Patty and all
I realize this is a sensitive subject. I just read further into this 
website you suggest Patty:/ *An Alternative to Zionism */and copied the 
content of a plaque in my previous e-mail  This copper plaque weighing 
some 37 pounds is available for a little over a thousand dollars, you 
can order it. You can also  order tracts from them, in the same vein of 
thought. The following address to an article you suggest, is part of the 
thoughts source where that plaque comes from.

I read the article you refer to Patty, and going into that website a 
little further, I found  this plaque. I can see more and more why the 
nations seem to get wool hung over their eye's concerning the true 
Israel.  I realize that Israel is founded on zionist views that will 
never make it  to stand before the almighty G-d. The God of Abraham 
Isaac and Jacob. Those heads of the present day Israel, who bulldoze 
down innocent Jewish people's home in the middle of the night, without 
pre-notification,  a family of nine children involved. And chase out the 
occupants, comprised of some 20 famlies who legally live in a house 
called the Peace House in Hebron, legally owned by a Jew, right in the 
land of Israel. Which happened within the last month or two.This is the 
work of Zionism if I have it right. These are also the people who 
imprison innocent Jews who take a non-compulsive stand against this 
corruption of zionism by demonstrations, and eye opening proof that they 
are truly corrupt, doing what they do.

The stand of  Manhigut Yehudit within the party of the Likud, Moshe 
Feiglin, who believe on /Turning the *State of the Jews *into the 
*Jewish State */really scares these zionist's, because, should this G-d 
fearing party get into leading the country, they, zionism, will all at 
once be exposed for what their corruption really stands for. As long as 
they can make the world , especially the Arabs around them believe  
that  these G-d fearing Jews are the cause of all problems.  This way 
their own private scandals, as well as the scandals of all other nations 
can be covered up and be blamed on the Jews.

But these G-d fearing Jews have to go  through the fire of tribulation 
for a reason, as gold and silver is tried, to make them pure, and to 
prove to the nations around them, who is the true G-d.  Will Allah be 
the one? When the time is ripe a wrench may be thrown into the gears of 
all the corrupt planners of this world. And who does the Torah say will 
be the victors? Will it be zionism? Will it be these others by the power 
of a civil war? Not necessarily. I don't think so. It will be those who 
dare to take a stand against *all odds*. It will be those who have faith 
in the G-D of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. It way well be that a unity will 
have to first be established among the faithful among all believers, 
before the coming of the Messiah, who will than bring peace to this 
trembling world can take place. Maybe all knees will first have to bow, 
in recognition of the one who made the blueprint in the first place.

At the present time, the true ruler of this world, Baruch Hashem, may be 
working behind the scenes, and may appear not able to do anything 
against this evil all around us. Yet the Creator, blessed be His name, 
has a clear blue print quite obvious for those who study it, written in 
His own Bible, the Torah and the writings of the Prophets, those who are 
studying it and live by it's standards, will not have to depend on the 
IDF, or a covil war, but the promises of Him who has everything in His 
control.

I have to admit, I believe this plaque, and what it stands for, as well 
as the core belief of Christianity, may not be able to stand against the 
fire of Hashem, when this world is going to stand before the judgment. 
But they likely were all needed to give us a chance to  study to be 
approved of G-D, to rightly divide the word of G-d.  A workman that will 
not need to be ashamed.

Cornie



Patty wrote:
>
> Shalom all,
>
>  
>
> Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did 
> not write it, but the author can be contacted:
>
>  
>
> www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html 
> <http://www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html>
>
>  
>
> Patty
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Dec 16 17:45:31 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:45:31 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Who Will Bring Israel Home? What will be the Sign? 
In-Reply-To: <035b01c95fbd$9cd56c20$d6804460$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<855590370812160954s576f7a30sb23adfae822b6039@mail.gmail.com>	<031401c95fa7$dfd64af0$9f82e0d0$@com>	<855590370812161017n49394a18gbce5b654dfe2624@mail.gmail.com><033301c95faa$d304dc80$790e9580$@com>
	<035b01c95fbd$9cd56c20$d6804460$@com>
Message-ID: <4A2F47FAA70547758E54FF98F4D10345@bettylaptop>

Yes, Patty!  And it is so clear when we read all the passages from the
Tanach.  As I always tell people when they start asking, "Well, don't you
believe that Jesus is your Lord and Savior?"  My reply is, "No, G-d is my
Savior," and the Torah and Prophets as well as Jesus himself attested, there
is "none other," (Heb. ("ain od")!

 

Thanks for the post and for laying out these references so clearly before
us.

 

 Many think that one of the criterion of Messiah is that he will gather the
Tribes home to Israel, but in fact we read that it is YHWH Himself who
gathers and brings them home - Messiah will be an "ensign":

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:34 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Who Will Bring Israel Home? What will be the Sign? 

 

Shalom All,

 

Many think that one of the criterion of Messiah is that he will gather the
Tribes home to Israel, but in fact we read that it is YHWH Himself who
gathers and brings them home - Messiah will be an "ensign":

 

Isaiah 11

[10] And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for
an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall
be glorious.
[11] And it shall come to pass in that day, that YHWH shall set his hand
again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be
left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and
from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the
sea.

12] And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four
corners of the earth.
[13] The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah
shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex
Ephraim.

 

Ezekiel 34

[11] For thus says YHWH Elohim; Behold, I, even I, will both search my
sheep, and seek them out.
[12] As a shepherd seeks out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep
that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out
of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
[13] And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the
countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the
mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the
country.
[14] I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of
Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a
fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
[15] I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, says YHWH.

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

 

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Dec 16 17:58:34 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:58:34 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism]
Message-ID: <494840AA.6020206@westnet.com.au>

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From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:26:57 -0500
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Dec 16 18:07:54 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:07:54 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism]
Message-ID: <494842DA.8070905@westnet.com.au>

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From: Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:42:35 -0600
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 18:15:39 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:15:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>
	<49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <03b501c95fdc$99cde060$cd69a120$@com>

Shalom Cornie, 

 

Thank you for your reply! I agree that it is the Creator  who will be Victor
and Israel will be brought back by Him and when He is ready to bring them
back. 

 

Baruch HaShem!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Reimer
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:43 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 


Hi Patty and all
I realize this is a sensitive subject. I just read further into this website
you suggest Patty: An Alternative to Zionism and copied the content of a
plaque in my previous e-mail  This copper plaque weighing some 37 pounds is
available for a little over a thousand dollars, you can order it. You can
also  order tracts from them, in the same vein of thought. The following
address to an article you suggest, is part of the thoughts source where that
plaque comes from.

I read the article you refer to Patty, and going into that website a little
further, I found  this plaque. I can see more and more why the nations seem
to get wool hung over their eye's concerning the true Israel.  I realize
that Israel is founded on zionist views that will never make it  to stand
before the almighty G-d. The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Those heads of
the present day Israel, who bulldoze down innocent Jewish people's home in
the middle of the night, without pre-notification,  a family of nine
children involved. And chase out the occupants, comprised of some 20 famlies
who legally live in a house called the Peace House in Hebron, legally owned
by a Jew, right in the land of Israel. Which happened within the last month
or two.This is the work of Zionism if I have it right. These are also the
people who imprison innocent Jews who take a non-compulsive stand against
this corruption of zionism by demonstrations, and eye opening proof that
they are truly corrupt, doing what they do.

The stand of  Manhigut Yehudit within the party of the Likud, Moshe Feiglin,
who believe on Turning the State of the Jews into the Jewish State really
scares these zionist's, because, should this G-d fearing party get into
leading the country, they, zionism, will all at once be exposed for what
their corruption really stands for. As long as they can make the world ,
especially the Arabs around them believe  that  these G-d fearing Jews are
the cause of all problems.  This way their own private scandals, as well as
the scandals of all other nations can be covered up and be blamed on the
Jews.

But these G-d fearing Jews have to go  through the fire of tribulation for a
reason, as gold and silver is tried, to make them pure, and to prove to the
nations around them, who is the true G-d.  Will Allah be the one? When the
time is ripe a wrench may be thrown into the gears of all the corrupt
planners of this world. And who does the Torah say will be the victors? Will
it be zionism? Will it be these others by the power of a civil war? Not
necessarily. I don't think so. It will be those who dare to take a stand
against all odds. It will be those who have faith in the G-D of Abraham
Isaac and Jacob. It way well be that a unity will have to first be
established among the faithful among all believers, before the coming of the
Messiah, who will than bring peace to this trembling world can take place.
Maybe all knees will first have to bow, in recognition of the one who made
the blueprint in the first place.

At the present time, the true ruler of this world, Baruch Hashem, may be
working behind the scenes, and may appear not able to do anything against
this evil all around us. Yet the Creator, blessed be His name, has a clear
blue print quite obvious for those who study it, written in His own Bible,
the Torah and the writings of the Prophets, those who are studying it and
live by it's standards, will not have to depend on the IDF, or a covil war,
but the promises of Him who has everything in His control.

I have to admit, I believe this plaque, and what it stands for, as well as
the core belief of Christianity, may not be able to stand against the fire
of Hashem, when this world is going to stand before the judgment. But they
likely were all needed to give us a chance to  study to be approved of G-D,
to rightly divide the word of G-d.  A workman that will not need to be
ashamed. 

Cornie



Patty wrote: 

Shalom all,

 

Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not
write it, but the author can be contacted:

 

www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html

 

Patty

 



  _____  



 
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 18:16:59 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:16:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Who Will Bring Israel Home? What will be the Sign? 
In-Reply-To: <4A2F47FAA70547758E54FF98F4D10345@bettylaptop>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<855590370812160954s576f7a30sb23adfae822b6039@mail.gmail.com>	<031401c95fa7$dfd64af0$9f82e0d0$@com>	<855590370812161017n49394a18gbce5b654dfe2624@mail.gmail.com><033301c95faa$d304dc80$790e9580$@com>	<035b01c95fbd$9cd56c20$d6804460$@com>
	<4A2F47FAA70547758E54FF98F4D10345@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <03ba01c95fdc$c8a7be10$59f73a30$@com>

Thank you Elisheva, truly you speak a blessing!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Who Will Bring Israel Home? What will be the Sign? 

 

Yes, Patty!  And it is so clear when we read all the passages from the
Tanach.  As I always tell people when they start asking, "Well, don't you
believe that Jesus is your Lord and Savior?"  My reply is, "No, G-d is my
Savior," and the Torah and Prophets as well as Jesus himself attested, there
is "none other," (Heb. ("ain od")!

 

Thanks for the post and for laying out these references so clearly before
us.

 

 Many think that one of the criterion of Messiah is that he will gather the
Tribes home to Israel, but in fact we read that it is YHWH Himself who
gathers and brings them home - Messiah will be an "ensign":

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:34 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Who Will Bring Israel Home? What will be the Sign? 

 

Shalom All,

 

Many think that one of the criterion of Messiah is that he will gather the
Tribes home to Israel, but in fact we read that it is YHWH Himself who
gathers and brings them home - Messiah will be an "ensign":

 

Isaiah 11

[10] And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for
an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall
be glorious.
[11] And it shall come to pass in that day, that YHWH shall set his hand
again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be
left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and
from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the
sea.

12] And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four
corners of the earth.
[13] The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah
shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex
Ephraim.

 

Ezekiel 34

[11] For thus says YHWH Elohim; Behold, I, even I, will both search my
sheep, and seek them out.
[12] As a shepherd seeks out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep
that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out
of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
[13] And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the
countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the
mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the
country.
[14] I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of
Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a
fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
[15] I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, says YHWH.

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

 

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From shcole1 at cox.net  Tue Dec 16 18:22:06 2008
From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:22:06 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <025e01c95f85$ff258d70$fd70a850$@com>
References: <011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<025e01c95f85$ff258d70$fd70a850$@com>
Message-ID: <9162D08DD9194B82AF72CDB3858FDBB3@sherryPC>

Hi Patty,
I really like the double-cluster of grapes design.I've seen Betty's work and I think she would do a beautiful job ,(not to twist your arm , Betty!)
Love and blessings,
Sherry ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patty 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:55 AM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim


  Hi Betty,

   

  Very beautiful work indeed. I am thinking of a double-cluster of grapes for Ephraim to represent doubly bountiful. Would you be interested in doing something new? 

   

  Patty

   

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Eddy
  Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:36 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

   

        take a look at my banner of Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the bottom of the page.

        Betty Eddy

         

         



        --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

        From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
        Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM

        Shalom All!

        In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.  In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 

        Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."

        Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
        21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
        22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."

         

        So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

        A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE blessed..



        The back of a current Israeli coin:



        Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:



        I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to comments.

        Patty

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

_______________________________________________ 

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 19:04:34 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:04:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com><02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>
	<49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com><02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>
	<49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS4262805356E3AD488654FBAF20@phx.gbl>

Beautifully said, Cornie!!!!  Thank you!  ~ Pat


From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:42 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism



Hi Patty and all
I realize this is a sensitive subject. I just read further into this website you suggest Patty: An Alternative to Zionism and copied the content of a plaque in my previous e-mail  This copper plaque weighing some 37 pounds is available for a little over a thousand dollars, you can order it. You can also  order tracts from them, in the same vein of thought. The following address to an article you suggest, is part of the thoughts source where that plaque comes from.

I read the article you refer to Patty, and going into that website a little further, I found  this plaque. I can see more and more why the nations seem to get wool hung over their eye's concerning the true Israel.  I realize that Israel is founded on zionist views that will never make it  to stand before the almighty G-d. The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Those heads of the present day Israel, who bulldoze down innocent Jewish people's home in the middle of the night, without pre-notification,  a family of nine children involved. And chase out the occupants, comprised of some 20 famlies who legally live in a house called the Peace House in Hebron, legally owned by a Jew, right in the land of Israel. Which happened within the last month or two.This is the work of Zionism if I have it right. These are also the people who imprison innocent Jews who take a non-compulsive stand against this corruption of zionism by demonstrations, and eye opening proof that they are truly corrupt, doing what they do.

The stand of  Manhigut Yehudit within the party of the Likud, Moshe Feiglin, who believe on Turning the State of the Jews into the Jewish State really scares these zionist's, because, should this G-d fearing party get into leading the country, they, zionism, will all at once be exposed for what their corruption really stands for. As long as they can make the world , especially the Arabs around them believe  that  these G-d fearing Jews are the cause of all problems.  This way their own private scandals, as well as the scandals of all other nations can be covered up and be blamed on the Jews.

But these G-d fearing Jews have to go  through the fire of tribulation for a reason, as gold and silver is tried, to make them pure, and to prove to the nations around them, who is the true G-d.  Will Allah be the one? When the time is ripe a wrench may be thrown into the gears of all the corrupt planners of this world. And who does the Torah say will be the victors? Will it be zionism? Will it be these others by the power of a civil war? Not necessarily. I don't think so. It will be those who dare to take a stand against all odds. It will be those who have faith in the G-D of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. It way well be that a unity will have to first be established among the faithful among all believers, before the coming of the Messiah, who will than bring peace to this trembling world can take place. Maybe all knees will first have to bow, in recognition of the one who made the blueprint in the first place.

At the present time, the true ruler of this world, Baruch Hashem, may be working behind the scenes, and may appear not able to do anything against this evil all around us. Yet the Creator, blessed be His name, has a clear blue print quite obvious for those who study it, written in His own Bible, the Torah and the writings of the Prophets, those who are studying it and live by it's standards, will not have to depend on the IDF, or a covil war, but the promises of Him who has everything in His control.

I have to admit, I believe this plaque, and what it stands for, as well as the core belief of Christianity, may not be able to stand against the fire of Hashem, when this world is going to stand before the judgment. But they likely were all needed to give us a chance to  study to be approved of G-D, to rightly divide the word of G-d.  A workman that will not need to be ashamed. 

Cornie



Patty wrote: 
  Shalom all,

   

  Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not write it, but the author can be contacted:

   

  www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html

   

  Patty

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 19:16:09 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:16:09 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism]
In-Reply-To: <494840AA.6020206@westnet.com.au>
References: <494840AA.6020206@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS6CF0A2D41E59A5581984EBAF20@phx.gbl>

Well said, Joe:   "Tyranny does not bow to Biblical principles." 

Thank you,

Pat


From: Joe Indomenico 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:58 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism]


Shalom Patty,

the air waves have been buzzing somewhat whilst I have been away feeding the crocs.

I read the article by Rabbi David ( the grasshopper in the wilderness) Weiss .
Whilst he argued some very interesting points and made strong assertions, I feel he somewhat missed the plot.
Mind you, Neturei Karta being behind the article  already makes for controversial reading.

He states :

The Holy Land was a conditional Divine gift. It was a place set aside for God's worship. But it was given conditionally. The Bible foretold that if the "children of Israel" should fail in their spiritual task, they would be banished from the land and sent into exile. This exilic punishment will last until the Lord in His mercy, sees fit to end history as we know it, by ushering in the Messianic era-a time of universal brotherhood and peace. This utopian future will feature the worship of God by all mankind, centered in the Holy Land and the city of Jerusalem.  

Still scratching my head over this one.

The Land was bequeathed to Avraham " unconditionally" ( he was asleep when the covenant was sealed ), confirmed with Yitzchak and ratified with Yacov.

The Land was not a gift. The Torah tells us that the commandment was to take the Land by conquest (force) and to drive out the seven Canaanite nations. Too many verses to quote. Hence my reference to the grasshopper.

The product of the "enlightened" German Jewry movement which produced proud, nationalistic , law abiding, "light unto the nation" Jewish citizens was the Holocaust. Tyranny does not bow to Biblical principles. This shows deep naivety. 

A whole generation perished in the wilderness ( a form of exile) because of their desire to return to Egypt and all that it stood for and lack of desire to take the land. An eleven day journey took 40 years. Only Yehoshua ben Nun and Calev, the original affirmers  of HaShem's miracles made it.

The formation of the state of Yisrael was an "act " of HaShem. In 1948 HaShem entered( there all along)world politics in a very profound way. Keeping in mind that 1947 vote in the UN had countries like the USSR vote in favour of the formation of the state of Yisrael. Mr Groymeko often called "Mr Niet" as he opposed everything that was proposed by the west actually cast the vote in the affirmative. The USSR was an ally of the Arab world.
That in itself shows the sovereignty of HaShem.

Patty , you mentioned the word "Ensign" or banner. This word in Hebrew "Ness" also means miracle. What greater miracle and banner could there be that within 3 years after the Holocaust the state of Yisrael could rise from the ashes of the "Shoah" and survive the onslaught of 5 Arab armies ?

In Ezekiel chap 36 no where does it say that Yisrael would return in full belief as a " Torah observant, light unto the nations, nation of priests" Quite the contrary they will return to the land in all filthiness to be cleansed by HaShem. The key point is that HaShem will deal with them in the land, 

In summing up ,the Prophet Zechariah says that HaShem will bring all the nations against Yerushalayim and Yehudah will be there fighting.

So as Rabbi Weiss says " Let us dismantle the state of Yisrael " and therefore HaShem can bring all the nations against Crown Heights- New York, St Kilda - Melbourne, Buenos Aires ,Johannesburg, London, take your pick...... eenie , meenie , minnie moe.

My apologies for the sarcasm. History and Biblical prophecy is playing out in front of our very eyes.
Noble Hellenistic sentiments are not the order of the day, especially as we near Chag Channukah.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE
ps : sorry for the large print. It is Rabbi Weiss fault . His quote commandeered my computer's writing.

 






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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 19:21:49 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:21:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Funny
In-Reply-To: <346542.56351.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <346542.56351.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS2FF515F485872BDC8EBE5BAF20@phx.gbl>

LOVE IT, TRACY!!!!!


From: Tracy Osborne 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:05 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Funny


http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1791939





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Dec 16 19:35:07 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:35:07 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Funny]
Message-ID: <4948574B.8020101@westnet.com.au>

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From: Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Funny
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:05:33 -0800 (PST)
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From correim at gninc.ca  Tue Dec 16 19:40:40 2008
From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:40:40 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>
	<49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <49485898.6020400@gninc.ca>

I realize the e-mail where I had copied the plaque into titled */The 
Truth About Islam, /*did not come through. If anyone is interested, go 
to that website that Patty's article came from 
www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html 
<http://www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html> you will find the 
link to this plaque. They claim to believe on the Torah, Jesus as a 
prophet, and on the Koran. There is a bible available in 
http://100777.com/plan that is called The King of Kings Bible. This is 
the website that was introduced to the Dialogue by Steve Mathe 
concerning the Ark of the Covenant, about  a month ago. I believe we 
really are in time when the dark cloud's wanting to take away our faith, 
are starting to hang very low. But for those of the faithful who will 
trust in their maker, will not have to be ashamed. Let us pray for each 
other as we face it.

Cornie



Cornie Reimer wrote:
>
> Hi Patty and all
> I realize this is a sensitive subject. I just read further into this 
> website you suggest Patty:/ *An Alternative to Zionism */and copied 
> the content of a plaque in my previous e-mail  This copper plaque 
> weighing some 37 pounds is available for a little over a thousand 
> dollars, you can order it. You can also  order tracts from them, in 
> the same vein of thought. The following address to an article you 
> suggest, is part of the thoughts source where that plaque comes from.
>
> I read the article you refer to Patty, and going into that website a 
> little further, I found  this plaque. I can see more and more why the 
> nations seem to get wool hung over their eye's concerning the true 
> Israel.  I realize that Israel is founded on zionist views that will 
> never make it  to stand before the almighty G-d. The God of Abraham 
> Isaac and Jacob. Those heads of the present day Israel, who bulldoze 
> down innocent Jewish people's home in the middle of the night, without 
> pre-notification,  a family of nine children involved. And chase out 
> the occupants, comprised of some 20 famlies who legally live in a 
> house called the Peace House in Hebron, legally owned by a Jew, right 
> in the land of Israel. Which happened within the last month or 
> two.This is the work of Zionism if I have it right. These are also the 
> people who imprison innocent Jews who take a non-compulsive stand 
> against this corruption of zionism by demonstrations, and eye opening 
> proof that they are truly corrupt, doing what they, the supreme Court 
> and the elite leaders of Israel do.
>
> The stand of  Manhigut Yehudit within the party of the Likud, Moshe 
> Feiglin, who believe on /Turning the *State of the Jews *into the 
> *Jewish State */really scares these zionist's, because, should this 
> G-d fearing party get into leading the country, they, zionism, will 
> all at once be exposed for what their corruption really stands for. As 
> long as they can make the world believe , especially the Arabs around 
> them,  that  these G-d fearing Jews are the cause of all problems.  
> This way their own private scandals, as well as the scandals of all 
> other nations can be covered up and be blamed on the Jews.
>
> But these G-d fearing Jews have to go  through the fire of tribulation 
> for a reason, as gold and silver is tried, to make them pure, and to 
> prove to the nations around them, who is the true G-d.  Will Allah be 
> the one? When the time is ripe a wrench may be thrown into the gears 
> of all the corrupt planners of this world. And who does the Torah say 
> will be the victors? Will it be zionism? Will it be these others by 
> the power of a civil war? Not necessarily. I don't think so. It will 
> be those who dare to take a stand against *all odds*. It will be those 
> who have faith in the G-D of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. It way well be 
> that a unity will have to first be established among the faithful 
> among all believers, before the coming of the Messiah, who will than 
> bring peace to this trembling world can take place. Maybe all knees 
> will first have to bow, in recognition of the one who made the 
> blueprint in the first place.
>
> At the present time, the true ruler of this world, Baruch Hashem, may 
> be working behind the scenes, and may appear not able to do anything 
> against this evil all around us. Yet the Creator, blessed be His name, 
> has a clear blue print quite obvious for those who study it, written 
> in His own Bible, the Torah and the writings of the Prophets, those 
> who are studying it and live by it's standards, will not have to 
> depend on the IDF, or a civil war, but the promises of Him who has 
> everything in His control.
>
> I have to admit, I do not  believe in this plaque, and what it stands 
> for, as well as the core belief of Christianity, may not be able to 
> stand against the fire of Hashem, when this world is going to stand 
> before the judgment throne. But they likely were all needed to give us 
> a chance to  study to be approved of G-D, to rightly divide the word 
> of G-d.  A workman that will not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing 
> the Word of truth.
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
> Patty wrote:
>>
>> Shalom all,
>>
>>  
>>
>> Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did 
>> not write it, but the author can be contacted:
>>
>>  
>>
>> www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html 
>> <http://www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html>
>>
>>  
>>
>> Patty
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 19:49:58 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:49:58 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com><49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>
	<49485898.6020400@gninc.ca>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com><49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>
	<49485898.6020400@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS428A4B11ADC2F11A734E0BAF20@phx.gbl>

Thank you for being so thorough in researching this, Cornie.  I didn't spend the time that you did on it, and I am most grateful for what you did.   ~ Pat


From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:40 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism


I realize the e-mail where I had copied the plaque into titled The Truth About Islam, did not come through. If anyone is interested, go to that website that Patty's article came from www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html you will find the link to this plaque. They claim to believe on the Torah, Jesus as a prophet, and on the Koran. There is a bible available in http://100777.com/plan that is called The King of Kings Bible. This is the website that was introduced to the Dialogue by Steve Mathe concerning the Ark of the Covenant, about  a month ago. I believe we really are in time when the dark cloud's wanting to take away our faith, are starting to hang very low. But for those of the faithful who will trust in their maker, will not have to be ashamed. Let us pray for each other as we face it.

Cornie



Cornie Reimer wrote: 

  Hi Patty and all
  I realize this is a sensitive subject. I just read further into this website you suggest Patty: An Alternative to Zionism and copied the content of a plaque in my previous e-mail  This copper plaque weighing some 37 pounds is available for a little over a thousand dollars, you can order it. You can also  order tracts from them, in the same vein of thought. The following address to an article you suggest, is part of the thoughts source where that plaque comes from.

  I read the article you refer to Patty, and going into that website a little further, I found  this plaque. I can see more and more why the nations seem to get wool hung over their eye's concerning the true Israel.  I realize that Israel is founded on zionist views that will never make it  to stand before the almighty G-d. The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Those heads of the present day Israel, who bulldoze down innocent Jewish people's home in the middle of the night, without pre-notification,  a family of nine children involved. And chase out the occupants, comprised of some 20 famlies who legally live in a house called the Peace House in Hebron, legally owned by a Jew, right in the land of Israel. Which happened within the last month or two.This is the work of Zionism if I have it right. These are also the people who imprison innocent Jews who take a non-compulsive stand against this corruption of zionism by demonstrations, and eye opening proof that they are truly corrupt, doing what they, the supreme Court and the elite leaders of Israel do.

  The stand of  Manhigut Yehudit within the party of the Likud, Moshe Feiglin, who believe on Turning the State of the Jews into the Jewish State really scares these zionist's, because, should this G-d fearing party get into leading the country, they, zionism, will all at once be exposed for what their corruption really stands for. As long as they can make the world believe , especially the Arabs around them,  that  these G-d fearing Jews are the cause of all problems.  This way their own private scandals, as well as the scandals of all other nations can be covered up and be blamed on the Jews.

  But these G-d fearing Jews have to go  through the fire of tribulation for a reason, as gold and silver is tried, to make them pure, and to prove to the nations around them, who is the true G-d.  Will Allah be the one? When the time is ripe a wrench may be thrown into the gears of all the corrupt planners of this world. And who does the Torah say will be the victors? Will it be zionism? Will it be these others by the power of a civil war? Not necessarily. I don't think so. It will be those who dare to take a stand against all odds. It will be those who have faith in the G-D of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. It way well be that a unity will have to first be established among the faithful among all believers, before the coming of the Messiah, who will than bring peace to this trembling world can take place. Maybe all knees will first have to bow, in recognition of the one who made the blueprint in the first place.

  At the present time, the true ruler of this world, Baruch Hashem, may be working behind the scenes, and may appear not able to do anything against this evil all around us. Yet the Creator, blessed be His name, has a clear blue print quite obvious for those who study it, written in His own Bible, the Torah and the writings of the Prophets, those who are studying it and live by it's standards, will not have to depend on the IDF, or a civil war, but the promises of Him who has everything in His control.

  I have to admit, I do not  believe in this plaque, and what it stands for, as well as the core belief of Christianity, may not be able to stand against the fire of Hashem, when this world is going to stand before the judgment throne. But they likely were all needed to give us a chance to  study to be approved of G-D, to rightly divide the word of G-d.  A workman that will not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth. 

  Cornie



  Patty wrote: 
    Shalom all,

     

    Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not write it, but the author can be contacted:

     

    www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html

     

    Patty

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 19:59:56 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:59:56 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS428A4B11ADC2F11A734E0BAF20@phx.gbl>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com><49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>	<49485898.6020400@gninc.ca>
	<BLU125-DS428A4B11ADC2F11A734E0BAF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <03f501c95feb$2c044380$840cca80$@com>

Hey Pat, where's MY hug?! J

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

Thank you for being so thorough in researching this, Cornie.  I didn't spend
the time that you did on it, and I am most grateful for what you did.   ~
Pat

 

From: Cornie Reimer <mailto:correim at gninc.ca>  

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:40 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

I realize the e-mail where I had copied the plaque into titled The Truth
About Islam, did not come through. If anyone is interested, go to that
website that Patty's article came from
www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html you will find the link to this
plaque. They claim to believe on the Torah, Jesus as a prophet, and on the
Koran. There is a bible available in http://100777.com/plan that is called
The King of Kings Bible. This is the website that was introduced to the
Dialogue by Steve Mathe concerning the Ark of the Covenant, about  a month
ago. I believe we really are in time when the dark cloud's wanting to take
away our faith, are starting to hang very low. But for those of the faithful
who will trust in their maker, will not have to be ashamed. Let us pray for
each other as we face it.

Cornie



Cornie Reimer wrote: 


Hi Patty and all
I realize this is a sensitive subject. I just read further into this website
you suggest Patty: An Alternative to Zionism and copied the content of a
plaque in my previous e-mail  This copper plaque weighing some 37 pounds is
available for a little over a thousand dollars, you can order it. You can
also  order tracts from them, in the same vein of thought. The following
address to an article you suggest, is part of the thoughts source where that
plaque comes from.

I read the article you refer to Patty, and going into that website a little
further, I found  this plaque. I can see more and more why the nations seem
to get wool hung over their eye's concerning the true Israel.  I realize
that Israel is founded on zionist views that will never make it  to stand
before the almighty G-d. The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Those heads of
the present day Israel, who bulldoze down innocent Jewish people's home in
the middle of the night, without pre-notification,  a family of nine
children involved. And chase out the occupants, comprised of some 20 famlies
who legally live in a house called the Peace House in Hebron, legally owned
by a Jew, right in the land of Israel. Which happened within the last month
or two.This is the work of Zionism if I have it right. These are also the
people who imprison innocent Jews who take a non-compulsive stand against
this corruption of zionism by demonstrations, and eye opening proof that
they are truly corrupt, doing what they, the supreme Court and the elite
leaders of Israel do.

The stand of  Manhigut Yehudit within the party of the Likud, Moshe Feiglin,
who believe on Turning the State of the Jews into the Jewish State really
scares these zionist's, because, should this G-d fearing party get into
leading the country, they, zionism, will all at once be exposed for what
their corruption really stands for. As long as they can make the world
believe , especially the Arabs around them,  that  these G-d fearing Jews
are the cause of all problems.  This way their own private scandals, as well
as the scandals of all other nations can be covered up and be blamed on the
Jews.

But these G-d fearing Jews have to go  through the fire of tribulation for a
reason, as gold and silver is tried, to make them pure, and to prove to the
nations around them, who is the true G-d.  Will Allah be the one? When the
time is ripe a wrench may be thrown into the gears of all the corrupt
planners of this world. And who does the Torah say will be the victors? Will
it be zionism? Will it be these others by the power of a civil war? Not
necessarily. I don't think so. It will be those who dare to take a stand
against all odds. It will be those who have faith in the G-D of Abraham
Isaac and Jacob. It way well be that a unity will have to first be
established among the faithful among all believers, before the coming of the
Messiah, who will than bring peace to this trembling world can take place.
Maybe all knees will first have to bow, in recognition of the one who made
the blueprint in the first place.

At the present time, the true ruler of this world, Baruch Hashem, may be
working behind the scenes, and may appear not able to do anything against
this evil all around us. Yet the Creator, blessed be His name, has a clear
blue print quite obvious for those who study it, written in His own Bible,
the Torah and the writings of the Prophets, those who are studying it and
live by it's standards, will not have to depend on the IDF, or a civil war,
but the promises of Him who has everything in His control.

I have to admit, I do not  believe in this plaque, and what it stands for,
as well as the core belief of Christianity, may not be able to stand against
the fire of Hashem, when this world is going to stand before the judgment
throne. But they likely were all needed to give us a chance to  study to be
approved of G-D, to rightly divide the word of G-d.  A workman that will not
need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth. 

Cornie



Patty wrote: 

Shalom all,

 

Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not
write it, but the author can be contacted:

 

www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html

 

Patty




  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  



  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 20:08:48 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:08:48 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com><49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>	<49485898.6020400@gninc.ca><BLU125-DS428A4B11ADC2F11A734E0BAF20@phx.gbl>
	<03f501c95feb$2c044380$840cca80$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com><49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>	<49485898.6020400@gninc.ca><BLU125-DS428A4B11ADC2F11A734E0BAF20@phx.gbl>
	<03f501c95feb$2c044380$840cca80$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS4B6070B4848B12EE8C559BAF20@phx.gbl>

Sorry Patty!  I love you!  Think I may be confused on who is saying what though!!!!  I was thanking Cornie because he researched this same group last week when I didn't.  I signed a petition without checking out the people who were sponsoring it, and regretted having done so after Cornie filled me in on it.  




From: Patty 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:59 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism


Hey Pat, where's MY hug?! J

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

Thank you for being so thorough in researching this, Cornie.  I didn't spend the time that you did on it, and I am most grateful for what you did.   ~ Pat

 

From: Cornie Reimer 

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:40 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

I realize the e-mail where I had copied the plaque into titled The Truth About Islam, did not come through. If anyone is interested, go to that website that Patty's article came from www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html you will find the link to this plaque. They claim to believe on the Torah, Jesus as a prophet, and on the Koran. There is a bible available in http://100777.com/plan that is called The King of Kings Bible. This is the website that was introduced to the Dialogue by Steve Mathe concerning the Ark of the Covenant, about  a month ago. I believe we really are in time when the dark cloud's wanting to take away our faith, are starting to hang very low. But for those of the faithful who will trust in their maker, will not have to be ashamed. Let us pray for each other as we face it.

Cornie



Cornie Reimer wrote: 


Hi Patty and all
I realize this is a sensitive subject. I just read further into this website you suggest Patty: An Alternative to Zionism and copied the content of a plaque in my previous e-mail  This copper plaque weighing some 37 pounds is available for a little over a thousand dollars, you can order it. You can also  order tracts from them, in the same vein of thought. The following address to an article you suggest, is part of the thoughts source where that plaque comes from.

I read the article you refer to Patty, and going into that website a little further, I found  this plaque. I can see more and more why the nations seem to get wool hung over their eye's concerning the true Israel.  I realize that Israel is founded on zionist views that will never make it  to stand before the almighty G-d. The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Those heads of the present day Israel, who bulldoze down innocent Jewish people's home in the middle of the night, without pre-notification,  a family of nine children involved. And chase out the occupants, comprised of some 20 famlies who legally live in a house called the Peace House in Hebron, legally owned by a Jew, right in the land of Israel. Which happened within the last month or two.This is the work of Zionism if I have it right. These are also the people who imprison innocent Jews who take a non-compulsive stand against this corruption of zionism by demonstrations, and eye opening proof that they are truly corrupt, doing what they, the supreme Court and the elite leaders of Israel do.

The stand of  Manhigut Yehudit within the party of the Likud, Moshe Feiglin, who believe on Turning the State of the Jews into the Jewish State really scares these zionist's, because, should this G-d fearing party get into leading the country, they, zionism, will all at once be exposed for what their corruption really stands for. As long as they can make the world believe , especially the Arabs around them,  that  these G-d fearing Jews are the cause of all problems.  This way their own private scandals, as well as the scandals of all other nations can be covered up and be blamed on the Jews.

But these G-d fearing Jews have to go  through the fire of tribulation for a reason, as gold and silver is tried, to make them pure, and to prove to the nations around them, who is the true G-d.  Will Allah be the one? When the time is ripe a wrench may be thrown into the gears of all the corrupt planners of this world. And who does the Torah say will be the victors? Will it be zionism? Will it be these others by the power of a civil war? Not necessarily. I don't think so. It will be those who dare to take a stand against all odds. It will be those who have faith in the G-D of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. It way well be that a unity will have to first be established among the faithful among all believers, before the coming of the Messiah, who will than bring peace to this trembling world can take place. Maybe all knees will first have to bow, in recognition of the one who made the blueprint in the first place.

At the present time, the true ruler of this world, Baruch Hashem, may be working behind the scenes, and may appear not able to do anything against this evil all around us. Yet the Creator, blessed be His name, has a clear blue print quite obvious for those who study it, written in His own Bible, the Torah and the writings of the Prophets, those who are studying it and live by it's standards, will not have to depend on the IDF, or a civil war, but the promises of Him who has everything in His control.

I have to admit, I do not  believe in this plaque, and what it stands for, as well as the core belief of Christianity, may not be able to stand against the fire of Hashem, when this world is going to stand before the judgment throne. But they likely were all needed to give us a chance to  study to be approved of G-D, to rightly divide the word of G-d.  A workman that will not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth. 

Cornie



Patty wrote: 

Shalom all,

 

Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not write it, but the author can be contacted:

 

www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html

 

Patty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 _______________________________________________  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 _______________________________________________   


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 20:19:40 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:19:40 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Land vs. Kingdom (was Judaism: An Alternative to
	Zionism)
In-Reply-To: <032801c95faa$8b4f9f60$a1eede20$@com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>
	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>
	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>
	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>
	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>
	<855590370812161008kaf5e774sc2d848bbe2daa82f@mail.gmail.com>
	<032801c95faa$8b4f9f60$a1eede20$@com>
Message-ID: <855590370812161819l3106e538u860ccfbe33d4da24@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Patty,

     Just to make sure I'm on the same page, how do you define "the
KINGDOM?"

      Thanks!
                   * Hanoch
*
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

>  Hi Hanoch,
>
>
>
> I think that Zionism has different meanings for different people. I am a
> Zionist in the way that I am for the Nation of Israel and the Return to
> Zion, but Shimon Peres is also a Zionist. They have the Land, but they
> certainly don't have the KINGDOM.
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:08 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
>
>
>
> As an FYI to all: this is from the Neturei Karta (Aramaic for "Guardians of
> the City") organization of " anti-Zionists."  I put quotation marks around
> "anti-Zionists" because you *cannot* be Jewish and be "anti-Zionist."
> These are the scum who wave PLO flags at demonstrations, and *stand
> alongside those who support and cheer the murder of Jewish men, women and
> children in Israel.*
>
>
>
> *These are the manure who went to Iran to kiss the new Hitler on the cheek
> *.  *These* are the 'people' behind that article.  They're only lucky that
> they have 2 full lines of NYPD riot equipped cops protecting them at these
> demonstrations...
>
>
>
>         *        Hanoch**
> *                                   (not 'angry,' just astounded..)
>
> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:
>
> Shalom all,
>
>
>
> Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not
> write it, but the author can be contacted:
>
>
>
> www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 20:43:22 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:43:22 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Land vs. Kingdom (was Judaism: An Alternative
	to	Zionism)
In-Reply-To: <855590370812161819l3106e538u860ccfbe33d4da24@mail.gmail.com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>	<855590370812161008kaf5e774sc2d848bbe2daa82f@mail.gmail.com>	<032801c95faa$8b4f9f60$a1eede20$@com>
	<855590370812161819l3106e538u860ccfbe33d4da24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <040c01c95ff1$3c609750$b521c5f0$@com>

Hey Hanoch,

 

I am referring to the Kingdom of YHWH.

 

Love,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:20 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Land vs. Kingdom (was Judaism: An Alternative to
Zionism)

 

Hey Patty,

 

     Just to make sure I'm on the same page, how do you define "the
KINGDOM?"

 

      Thanks!

                    Hanoch

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

Hi Hanoch,

 

I think that Zionism has different meanings for different people. I am a
Zionist in the way that I am for the Nation of Israel and the Return to
Zion, but Shimon Peres is also a Zionist. They have the Land, but they
certainly don't have the KINGDOM.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:08 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

As an FYI to all: this is from the Neturei Karta (Aramaic for "Guardians of
the City") organization of " anti-Zionists."  I put quotation marks around
"anti-Zionists" because you cannot be Jewish and be "anti-Zionist."  These
are the scum who wave PLO flags at demonstrations, and stand alongside those
who support and cheer the murder of Jewish men, women and children in
Israel.

 

These are the manure who went to Iran to kiss the new Hitler on the cheek.
These are the 'people' behind that article.  They're only lucky that they
have 2 full lines of NYPD riot equipped cops protecting them at these
demonstrations...

 

                Hanoch
                                   (not 'angry,' just astounded..)

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

Shalom all,

 

Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not
write it, but the author can be contacted:

 

www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html

 

Patty


_______________________________________________

 


_______________________________________________

 

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 20:43:57 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:43:57 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS4B6070B4848B12EE8C559BAF20@phx.gbl>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com><49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>	<49485898.6020400@gninc.ca><BLU125-DS428A4B11ADC2F11A734E0BAF20@phx.gbl>	<03f501c95feb$2c044380$840cca80$@com>
	<BLU125-DS4B6070B4848B12EE8C559BAF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <041101c95ff1$5133b4f0$f39b1ed0$@com>

I know Pat, I was teasing you! But I do like the hug!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:09 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

Sorry Patty!  I love you!  Think I may be confused on who is saying what
though!!!!  I was thanking Cornie because he researched this same group last
week when I didn't.  I signed a petition without checking out the people who
were sponsoring it, and regretted having done so after Cornie filled me in
on it.  

 

 

 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:59 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

Hey Pat, where's MY hug?! J

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

Thank you for being so thorough in researching this, Cornie.  I didn't spend
the time that you did on it, and I am most grateful for what you did.   ~
Pat

 

From: Cornie Reimer <mailto:correim at gninc.ca>  

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:40 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

I realize the e-mail where I had copied the plaque into titled The Truth
About Islam, did not come through. If anyone is interested, go to that
website that Patty's article came from
www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html you will find the link to this
plaque. They claim to believe on the Torah, Jesus as a prophet, and on the
Koran. There is a bible available in http://100777.com/plan that is called
The King of Kings Bible. This is the website that was introduced to the
Dialogue by Steve Mathe concerning the Ark of the Covenant, about  a month
ago. I believe we really are in time when the dark cloud's wanting to take
away our faith, are starting to hang very low. But for those of the faithful
who will trust in their maker, will not have to be ashamed. Let us pray for
each other as we face it.

Cornie



Cornie Reimer wrote: 


Hi Patty and all
I realize this is a sensitive subject. I just read further into this website
you suggest Patty: An Alternative to Zionism and copied the content of a
plaque in my previous e-mail  This copper plaque weighing some 37 pounds is
available for a little over a thousand dollars, you can order it. You can
also  order tracts from them, in the same vein of thought. The following
address to an article you suggest, is part of the thoughts source where that
plaque comes from.

I read the article you refer to Patty, and going into that website a little
further, I found  this plaque. I can see more and more why the nations seem
to get wool hung over their eye's concerning the true Israel.  I realize
that Israel is founded on zionist views that will never make it  to stand
before the almighty G-d. The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Those heads of
the present day Israel, who bulldoze down innocent Jewish people's home in
the middle of the night, without pre-notification,  a family of nine
children involved. And chase out the occupants, comprised of some 20 famlies
who legally live in a house called the Peace House in Hebron, legally owned
by a Jew, right in the land of Israel. Which happened within the last month
or two.This is the work of Zionism if I have it right. These are also the
people who imprison innocent Jews who take a non-compulsive stand against
this corruption of zionism by demonstrations, and eye opening proof that
they are truly corrupt, doing what they, the supreme Court and the elite
leaders of Israel do.

The stand of  Manhigut Yehudit within the party of the Likud, Moshe Feiglin,
who believe on Turning the State of the Jews into the Jewish State really
scares these zionist's, because, should this G-d fearing party get into
leading the country, they, zionism, will all at once be exposed for what
their corruption really stands for. As long as they can make the world
believe , especially the Arabs around them,  that  these G-d fearing Jews
are the cause of all problems.  This way their own private scandals, as well
as the scandals of all other nations can be covered up and be blamed on the
Jews.

But these G-d fearing Jews have to go  through the fire of tribulation for a
reason, as gold and silver is tried, to make them pure, and to prove to the
nations around them, who is the true G-d.  Will Allah be the one? When the
time is ripe a wrench may be thrown into the gears of all the corrupt
planners of this world. And who does the Torah say will be the victors? Will
it be zionism? Will it be these others by the power of a civil war? Not
necessarily. I don't think so. It will be those who dare to take a stand
against all odds. It will be those who have faith in the G-D of Abraham
Isaac and Jacob. It way well be that a unity will have to first be
established among the faithful among all believers, before the coming of the
Messiah, who will than bring peace to this trembling world can take place.
Maybe all knees will first have to bow, in recognition of the one who made
the blueprint in the first place.

At the present time, the true ruler of this world, Baruch Hashem, may be
working behind the scenes, and may appear not able to do anything against
this evil all around us. Yet the Creator, blessed be His name, has a clear
blue print quite obvious for those who study it, written in His own Bible,
the Torah and the writings of the Prophets, those who are studying it and
live by it's standards, will not have to depend on the IDF, or a civil war,
but the promises of Him who has everything in His control.

I have to admit, I do not  believe in this plaque, and what it stands for,
as well as the core belief of Christianity, may not be able to stand against
the fire of Hashem, when this world is going to stand before the judgment
throne. But they likely were all needed to give us a chance to  study to be
approved of G-D, to rightly divide the word of G-d.  A workman that will not
need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth. 

Cornie



Patty wrote: 

Shalom all,

 

Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not
write it, but the author can be contacted:

 

www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html

 

Patty




  _____  



 
 
 
_______________________________________________
  



  _____  



 
 
 
_______________________________________________
  

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

  _____  

_______________________________________________

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 20:57:57 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:57:57 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <9162D08DD9194B82AF72CDB3858FDBB3@sherryPC>
References: <011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<025e01c95f85$ff258d70$fd70a850$@com>
	<9162D08DD9194B82AF72CDB3858FDBB3@sherryPC>
Message-ID: <042201c95ff3$4619fe10$d24dfa30$@com>

Hi Sherry!

 

I listened to your rendition of Psalm 1 yesterday on my way to Boston, very
beautiful.  I hope to include this on the CD. I am leaning toward the
double-cluster of grapes too. 

 

Love,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of sherry cole
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:22 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 

Hi Patty,

I really like the double-cluster of grapes design.I've seen Betty's work and
I think she would do a beautiful job ,(not to twist your arm , Betty!)

Love and blessings,

Sherry ----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:55 AM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 

Hi Betty,

 

Very beautiful work indeed. I am thinking of a double-cluster of grapes for
Ephraim to represent doubly bountiful. Would you be interested in doing
something new? 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Eddy
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:36 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 


take a look at my banner of Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to
bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Betty Eddy

 

 



--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM

Shalom All!

In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at
Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on
the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.
In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 

Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath
caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."

Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel
bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set
Ephraim before Manasseh.
21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with
you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I
took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."

 

So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has
sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE
blessed..



The back of a current Israeli coin:



Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may
be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:

 
<http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference
/jewish/jewish28a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/
anc-jewish.htm&usg=__ozkm07V4CXFtyg8ixX7WdoMAGdI=&h=236&w=421&sz=15&hl=en&st
art=38&tbnid=tMfAxiXkZOo0DM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddouble%2Bco
rnucopia%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN> 

I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a
new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to
begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to
comments.

Patty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

  _____  

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1850 - Release Date: 12/15/2008
5:04 PM

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 21:15:03 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:15:03 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism
Message-ID: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>

With all the posts back and forth, there's a key point being missed.  It's
not "Zionists" who are screwing up things in Israel, or who haven't brought
 G-d's kingdom - it's the HELLENISTS.  Zionism is an integral part of
Judaism; it's Hellenism that is the enemy ideology.

"The Jews against the Hellenists.  The real struggle."
                                                          Rav Meir Kahane
HY"D

          * Hanoch*
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue Dec 16 21:20:12 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:20:12 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism
In-Reply-To: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <043901c95ff6$61121ba0$233652e0$@com>

Hi Hanoch,

 

I think you are right about Hellenism.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:15 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism

 

With all the posts back and forth, there's a key point being missed.  It's
not "Zionists" who are screwing up things in Israel, or who haven't brought

 G-d's kingdom - it's the HELLENISTS.  Zionism is an integral part of
Judaism; it's Hellenism that is the enemy ideology.

 

"The Jews against the Hellenists.  The real struggle."

                                                          Rav Meir Kahane
HY"D 

 

           Hanoch

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 21:22:41 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:22:41 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism
In-Reply-To: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
	<043901c95ff6$61121ba0$233652e0$@com>
References: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
	<043901c95ff6$61121ba0$233652e0$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS66D1573B7DF2B90F159D8BAF20@phx.gbl>

HUGS TO BOTH OF YOU!!!!!  

This is why Chanukah means so much to me.  We are STILL at war with the Greeks!  

Love AND HUGS,

Pat


From: Patty 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:20 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism


Hi Hanoch,

 

I think you are right about Hellenism.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:15 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism

 

With all the posts back and forth, there's a key point being missed.  It's not "Zionists" who are screwing up things in Israel, or who haven't brought

 G-d's kingdom - it's the HELLENISTS.  Zionism is an integral part of Judaism; it's Hellenism that is the enemy ideology.

 

"The Jews against the Hellenists.  The real struggle."

                                                          Rav Meir Kahane HY"D 

 

           Hanoch



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 21:28:59 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:28:59 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Red Line, Green Line'
Message-ID: <855590370812161928h1439abdblf61b707f513ae787@mail.gmail.com>

Red Line, Green
Linehttp://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8439<linehttp://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8439>

Kislev 19, 5769, 16 December 08 12:40by David Ha'ivri
(IsraelNN.com) Buckle up your seat belts and hold on to your chairs -
the Israeli political arena is once again a roller coaster in motion,
causing confusion, bewilderment and, sometimes, nausea.

Remember the late, great Rabbi Meir Kahane, H.y.d., who was banned and
banished from the Knesset 20 years ago on the eve of the 1988 elections,
when polls showed his Kach party taking in 10% of the national vote? The
rabbi was branded a racist for proposing government sponsored emigration
of "Israel's Arabs". As explained in his book They Must Go, the motive
is not hate for Arabs, but rather preserving the future of the Jewish
State. Israeli democracy, he stated, is threatened by the high birthrate
of the Israeli Arabs who have their own national aspirations.

Over the years, other politicians have tried to jump onto the "transfer"
and "emigration" bandwagon and pick up some of the public support that
Rabbi Kahane had enjoyed, but none came close to matching his
popularity. Their lack of success may be attributed to several factors.
First of all, their calls for transfer were viewed as political
opportunism, lacking the same sincerity and consistency that the rabbi
had. In addition, they watered down the message, referring only to the
transfer (a mealy-mouth word in its own right) of Arabs from the
liberated lands of 1967 and not from Israel proper. Many failed to
create a groundswell of support because they simply lacked the charisma
that the rabbi had.

And now Tzipi Livni has hopped aboard the bandwagon, too. She is calling
upon Israeli Arabs (or in her own words, "Palestinian residents of
Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs") to prepare themselves to move
to "the Palestinian state once such a state is established" [sic]. She,
too, sees the problem in maintaining both a Jewish and democratic state
of Israel, so she proposes the establishment of two separate
nation-states.

Livni, who heads the left-wing Kadima party, is attempting to gain
national support for its failed "disengagement program," which saw Jews
robbed of their homes and livelihood in order to live out the twisted
dreams of the Left. Now Livni is proposing something new and exciting:
let's do a re-run of the "disengagement," this time in Judea and
Samaria. The plan is to again force Jews out of their homes and destroy
their communities, institutions and businesses. But this time there is
stage two: in order to alleviate ourselves of the "Palestinian residents
of Israel," we will encourage them to relocate to their own country, in
"cleansed" Judea and Samaria.

How does Livni suddenly justify transfer? Her explanation is that no
matter how important Israeli democracy may be, there must be a "red
line" - and that red line is the Israeli Arab demographic threat. Livni
is much bolder than her counterparts on the Right, whose calls for
transfer were usually limited to the Arabs in Judea and Samaria, and not
the Arab citizens of Israel within the 1967 Green Line.

I must say, "Bravo!" Were I to make the same statement about moving out
the Arabs, I would probably be indicted and convicted for incitement to
racism - as I already have been. But with Israel's "democratic
equality," the Left can talk about transfer and it is considered a
legitimate, and even a "humane," solution.

At the very least, all these wise men (and women) of Chelm should come
out and vindicate Rabbi Kahane and beg his forgiveness for the injustice
that they inflicted upon him. From Left to Right, they all realize that
he was right. The Israeli Arabs are not proud to be Israeli citizens.
They do not look up to the blue and white flag flying overhead and say,
with a tear in their eye, "If only my zeydie would have lived to see
this." They are Palestinian (whatever that is) nationals just the same
as their kin on the other side of the Green Line. The only difference
between them is the 19 years it took the IDF to liberate the land that
the latter live on. Ask any Arab-Israeli student at Hebrew University in
Jerusalem, he is not ashamed to admit where his loyalties lie.

The Israeli government has already legitimized ethnic cleansing by
implementing it on the Jews of Gush Katif and Northren Samaria. Now that
it has finally grasped that it is the Israeli Arabs who endanger the
future of the state, all that is needed is to start implementing the
pinui-petzui law on the Arabs of Um El-Fahm, the Galilee and the Negev.

I agree with Livni when she says there is a need to transfer the Israeli
Arabs to their own countries. But she is referring to Judea and Samaria,
which is historically, Biblically and legally the heritage and
birthright of the Jewish people. Livni says that she has red lines in
regard to preserving the integrity of the State of Israel. The problem
is that her red line only barely passes the Green Line over which she
proposes moving the Israeli Arabs. Tzipi from Kadima, you are indeed
moving forward. Now just move that red line of yours to the Jordan River
and you'll have my vote, too.
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 21:37:52 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:37:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Red Line, Green Line'
In-Reply-To: <855590370812161928h1439abdblf61b707f513ae787@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812161928h1439abdblf61b707f513ae787@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS55E726C2BB756759A3519BAF20@phx.gbl>

What is the possibility of "transferring" Livni?


From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:28 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Red Line, Green Line'


Red Line, Green
Linehttp://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8439

Kislev 19, 5769, 16 December 08 12:40by David Ha'ivri
(IsraelNN.com) Buckle up your seat belts and hold on to your chairs -
the Israeli political arena is once again a roller coaster in motion,
causing confusion, bewilderment and, sometimes, nausea.

Remember the late, great Rabbi Meir Kahane, H.y.d., who was banned and
banished from the Knesset 20 years ago on the eve of the 1988 elections,
when polls showed his Kach party taking in 10% of the national vote? The
rabbi was branded a racist for proposing government sponsored emigration
of "Israel's Arabs". As explained in his book They Must Go, the motive
is not hate for Arabs, but rather preserving the future of the Jewish
State. Israeli democracy, he stated, is threatened by the high birthrate
of the Israeli Arabs who have their own national aspirations.

Over the years, other politicians have tried to jump onto the "transfer"
and "emigration" bandwagon and pick up some of the public support that
Rabbi Kahane had enjoyed, but none came close to matching his
popularity. Their lack of success may be attributed to several factors.
First of all, their calls for transfer were viewed as political
opportunism, lacking the same sincerity and consistency that the rabbi
had. In addition, they watered down the message, referring only to the
transfer (a mealy-mouth word in its own right) of Arabs from the
liberated lands of 1967 and not from Israel proper. Many failed to
create a groundswell of support because they simply lacked the charisma
that the rabbi had.

And now Tzipi Livni has hopped aboard the bandwagon, too. She is calling
upon Israeli Arabs (or in her own words, "Palestinian residents of
Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs") to prepare themselves to move
to "the Palestinian state once such a state is established" [sic]. She,
too, sees the problem in maintaining both a Jewish and democratic state
of Israel, so she proposes the establishment of two separate
nation-states.

Livni, who heads the left-wing Kadima party, is attempting to gain
national support for its failed "disengagement program," which saw Jews
robbed of their homes and livelihood in order to live out the twisted
dreams of the Left. Now Livni is proposing something new and exciting:
let's do a re-run of the "disengagement," this time in Judea and
Samaria. The plan is to again force Jews out of their homes and destroy
their communities, institutions and businesses. But this time there is
stage two: in order to alleviate ourselves of the "Palestinian residents
of Israel," we will encourage them to relocate to their own country, in
"cleansed" Judea and Samaria.

How does Livni suddenly justify transfer? Her explanation is that no
matter how important Israeli democracy may be, there must be a "red
line" - and that red line is the Israeli Arab demographic threat. Livni
is much bolder than her counterparts on the Right, whose calls for
transfer were usually limited to the Arabs in Judea and Samaria, and not
the Arab citizens of Israel within the 1967 Green Line.

I must say, "Bravo!" Were I to make the same statement about moving out
the Arabs, I would probably be indicted and convicted for incitement to
racism - as I already have been. But with Israel's "democratic
equality," the Left can talk about transfer and it is considered a
legitimate, and even a "humane," solution.

At the very least, all these wise men (and women) of Chelm should come
out and vindicate Rabbi Kahane and beg his forgiveness for the injustice
that they inflicted upon him. From Left to Right, they all realize that
he was right. The Israeli Arabs are not proud to be Israeli citizens.
They do not look up to the blue and white flag flying overhead and say,
with a tear in their eye, "If only my zeydie would have lived to see
this." They are Palestinian (whatever that is) nationals just the same
as their kin on the other side of the Green Line. The only difference
between them is the 19 years it took the IDF to liberate the land that
the latter live on. Ask any Arab-Israeli student at Hebrew University in
Jerusalem, he is not ashamed to admit where his loyalties lie.

The Israeli government has already legitimized ethnic cleansing by
implementing it on the Jews of Gush Katif and Northren Samaria. Now that
it has finally grasped that it is the Israeli Arabs who endanger the
future of the state, all that is needed is to start implementing the
pinui-petzui law on the Arabs of Um El-Fahm, the Galilee and the Negev.

I agree with Livni when she says there is a need to transfer the Israeli
Arabs to their own countries. But she is referring to Judea and Samaria,
which is historically, Biblically and legally the heritage and
birthright of the Jewish people. Livni says that she has red lines in
regard to preserving the integrity of the State of Israel. The problem
is that her red line only barely passes the Green Line over which she
proposes moving the Israeli Arabs. Tzipi from Kadima, you are indeed
moving forward. Now just move that red line of yours to the Jordan River
and you'll have my vote, too.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From Correim at gninc.ca  Tue Dec 16 21:39:32 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:39:32 -0600
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS428A4B11ADC2F11A734E0BAF20@phx.gbl>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl>	<027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com>	<BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl>	<029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com>	<855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com>	<02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com>	<02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com><49483CEB.4070301@gninc.ca>	<49485898.6020400@gninc.ca>
	<BLU125-DS428A4B11ADC2F11A734E0BAF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <49487474.6020803@gninc.ca>

Thank you Pat, You likely don't have the time that I do now for 
researching. I alway's feel so uplifted with your cheerful attitude to 
one and all.
Cornie

Pat Robbins wrote:
> Thank you for being so thorough in researching this, Cornie.  I didn't 
> spend the time that you did on it, and I am most grateful for what you 
> did.   ~ Pat
>
> *From:* Cornie Reimer <mailto:correim at gninc.ca>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:40 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
>
> I realize the e-mail where I had copied the plaque into titled */The 
> Truth About Islam, /*did not come through. If anyone is interested, go 
> to that website that Patty's article came from 
> www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html 
> <http://www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html> you will find 
> the link to this plaque. They claim to believe on the Torah, Jesus as 
> a prophet, and on the Koran. There is a bible available in 
> http://100777.com/plan that is called The King of Kings Bible. This is 
> the website that was introduced to the Dialogue by Steve Mathe 
> concerning the Ark of the Covenant, about  a month ago. I believe we 
> really are in time when the dark cloud's wanting to take away our 
> faith, are starting to hang very low. But for those of the faithful 
> who will trust in their maker, will not have to be ashamed. Let us 
> pray for each other as we face it.
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
> Cornie Reimer wrote:
>>
>> Hi Patty and all
>> I realize this is a sensitive subject. I just read further into this 
>> website you suggest Patty:/ *An Alternative to Zionism */and copied 
>> the content of a plaque in my previous e-mail  This copper plaque 
>> weighing some 37 pounds is available for a little over a thousand 
>> dollars, you can order it. You can also  order tracts from them, in 
>> the same vein of thought. The following address to an article you 
>> suggest, is part of the thoughts source where that plaque comes from.
>>
>> I read the article you refer to Patty, and going into that website a 
>> little further, I found  this plaque. I can see more and more why the 
>> nations seem to get wool hung over their eye's concerning the true 
>> Israel.  I realize that Israel is founded on zionist views that will 
>> never make it  to stand before the almighty G-d. The God of Abraham 
>> Isaac and Jacob. Those heads of the present day Israel, who bulldoze 
>> down innocent Jewish people's home in the middle of the night, 
>> without pre-notification,  a family of nine children involved. And 
>> chase out the occupants, comprised of some 20 famlies who legally 
>> live in a house called the Peace House in Hebron, legally owned by a 
>> Jew, right in the land of Israel. Which happened within the last 
>> month or two.This is the work of Zionism if I have it right. These 
>> are also the people who imprison innocent Jews who take a 
>> non-compulsive stand against this corruption of zionism by 
>> demonstrations, and eye opening proof that they are truly corrupt, 
>> doing what they, the supreme Court and the elite leaders of Israel do.
>>
>> The stand of  Manhigut Yehudit within the party of the Likud, Moshe 
>> Feiglin, who believe on /Turning the *State of the Jews *into the 
>> *Jewish State */really scares these zionist's, because, should this 
>> G-d fearing party get into leading the country, they, zionism, will 
>> all at once be exposed for what their corruption really stands for. 
>> As long as they can make the world believe , especially the Arabs 
>> around them,  that  these G-d fearing Jews are the cause of all 
>> problems.  This way their own private scandals, as well as the 
>> scandals of all other nations can be covered up and be blamed on the 
>> Jews.
>>
>> But these G-d fearing Jews have to go  through the fire of 
>> tribulation for a reason, as gold and silver is tried, to make them 
>> pure, and to prove to the nations around them, who is the true G-d.  
>> Will Allah be the one? When the time is ripe a wrench may be thrown 
>> into the gears of all the corrupt planners of this world. And who 
>> does the Torah say will be the victors? Will it be zionism? Will it 
>> be these others by the power of a civil war? Not necessarily. I don't 
>> think so. It will be those who dare to take a stand against *all 
>> odds*. It will be those who have faith in the G-D of Abraham Isaac 
>> and Jacob. It way well be that a unity will have to first be 
>> established among the faithful among all believers, before the coming 
>> of the Messiah, who will than bring peace to this trembling world can 
>> take place. Maybe all knees will first have to bow, in recognition of 
>> the one who made the blueprint in the first place.
>>
>> At the present time, the true ruler of this world, Baruch Hashem, may 
>> be working behind the scenes, and may appear not able to do anything 
>> against this evil all around us. Yet the Creator, blessed be His 
>> name, has a clear blue print quite obvious for those who study it, 
>> written in His own Bible, the Torah and the writings of the Prophets, 
>> those who are studying it and live by it's standards, will not have 
>> to depend on the IDF, or a civil war, but the promises of Him who has 
>> everything in His control.
>>
>> I have to admit, I do not  believe in this plaque, and what it stands 
>> for, as well as the core belief of Christianity, may not be able to 
>> stand against the fire of Hashem, when this world is going to stand 
>> before the judgment throne. But they likely were all needed to give 
>> us a chance to  study to be approved of G-D, to rightly divide the 
>> word of G-d.  A workman that will not need to be ashamed, rightly 
>> dividing the Word of truth.
>>
>> Cornie
>>
>>
>>
>> Patty wrote:
>>>
>>> Shalom all,
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did 
>>> not write it, but the author can be contacted:
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html 
>>> <http://www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Patty
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>   
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Tue Dec 16 21:52:25 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:52:25 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Red Line, Green Line'
In-Reply-To: <855590370812161928h1439abdblf61b707f513ae787@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812161928h1439abdblf61b707f513ae787@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49487779.9000608@gninc.ca>

Hanoch thank you for all that you share. It is very up building to get 
updated in all this.

Cornie



Hanoch Young wrote:
>
> Red Line, Green
> Linehttp://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8439 
> <linehttp://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8439>
>
> Kislev 19, 5769, 16 December 08 12:40by David Ha'ivri
> (IsraelNN.com) Buckle up your seat belts and hold on to your chairs -
> the Israeli political arena is once again a roller coaster in motion,
> causing confusion, bewilderment and, sometimes, nausea.
>
> Remember the late, great Rabbi Meir Kahane, H.y.d., who was banned and
> banished from the Knesset 20 years ago on the eve of the 1988 elections,
> when polls showed his Kach party taking in 10% of the national vote? The
> rabbi was branded a racist for proposing government sponsored emigration
> of "Israel's Arabs". As explained in his book They Must Go, the motive
> is not hate for Arabs, but rather preserving the future of the Jewish
> State. Israeli democracy, he stated, is threatened by the high birthrate
> of the Israeli Arabs who have their own national aspirations.
>
> Over the years, other politicians have tried to jump onto the "transfer"
> and "emigration" bandwagon and pick up some of the public support that
> Rabbi Kahane had enjoyed, but none came close to matching his
> popularity. Their lack of success may be attributed to several factors.
> First of all, their calls for transfer were viewed as political
> opportunism, lacking the same sincerity and consistency that the rabbi
> had. In addition, they watered down the message, referring only to the
> transfer (a mealy-mouth word in its own right) of Arabs from the
> liberated lands of 1967 and not from Israel proper. Many failed to
> create a groundswell of support because they simply lacked the charisma
> that the rabbi had.
>
> And now Tzipi Livni has hopped aboard the bandwagon, too. She is calling
> upon Israeli Arabs (or in her own words, "Palestinian residents of
> Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs") to prepare themselves to move
> to "the Palestinian state once such a state is established" [sic]. She,
> too, sees the problem in maintaining both a Jewish and democratic state
> of Israel, so she proposes the establishment of two separate
> nation-states.
>
> Livni, who heads the left-wing Kadima party, is attempting to gain
> national support for its failed "disengagement program," which saw Jews
> robbed of their homes and livelihood in order to live out the twisted
> dreams of the Left. Now Livni is proposing something new and exciting:
> let's do a re-run of the "disengagement," this time in Judea and
> Samaria. The plan is to again force Jews out of their homes and destroy
> their communities, institutions and businesses. But this time there is
> stage two: in order to alleviate ourselves of the "Palestinian residents
> of Israel," we will encourage them to relocate to their own country, in
> "cleansed" Judea and Samaria.
>
> How does Livni suddenly justify transfer? Her explanation is that no
> matter how important Israeli democracy may be, there must be a "red
> line" - and that red line is the Israeli Arab demographic threat. Livni
> is much bolder than her counterparts on the Right, whose calls for
> transfer were usually limited to the Arabs in Judea and Samaria, and not
> the Arab citizens of Israel within the 1967 Green Line.
>
> I must say, "Bravo!" Were I to make the same statement about moving out
> the Arabs, I would probably be indicted and convicted for incitement to
> racism - as I already have been. But with Israel's "democratic
> equality," the Left can talk about transfer and it is considered a
> legitimate, and even a "humane," solution.
>
> At the very least, all these wise men (and women) of Chelm should come
> out and vindicate Rabbi Kahane and beg his forgiveness for the injustice
> that they inflicted upon him. From Left to Right, they all realize that
> he was right. The Israeli Arabs are not proud to be Israeli citizens.
> They do not look up to the blue and white flag flying overhead and say,
> with a tear in their eye, "If only my zeydie would have lived to see
> this." They are Palestinian (whatever that is) nationals just the same
> as their kin on the other side of the Green Line. The only difference
> between them is the 19 years it took the IDF to liberate the land that
> the latter live on. Ask any Arab-Israeli student at Hebrew University in
> Jerusalem, he is not ashamed to admit where his loyalties lie.
>
> The Israeli government has already legitimized ethnic cleansing by
> implementing it on the Jews of Gush Katif and Northren Samaria. Now that
> it has finally grasped that it is the Israeli Arabs who endanger the
> future of the state, all that is needed is to start implementing the
> pinui-petzui law on the Arabs of Um El-Fahm, the Galilee and the Negev.
>
> I agree with Livni when she says there is a need to transfer the Israeli
> Arabs to their own countries. But she is referring to Judea and Samaria,
> which is historically, Biblically and legally the heritage and
> birthright of the Jewish people. Livni says that she has red lines in
> regard to preserving the integrity of the State of Israel. The problem
> is that her red line only barely passes the Green Line over which she
> proposes moving the Israeli Arabs. Tzipi from Kadima, you are indeed
> moving forward. Now just move that red line of yours to the Jordan River
> and you'll have my vote, too.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec  8 16:18:19 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:18:19 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] I Don't Know Where to Start.
Message-ID: <120820082218.22604.493D9C2300027A4E0000584C22230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey all,

Well we had a very busy day today.  We walked through most of both the New City of Jerusalem and the Old City.  I'm trying to sort out my impressions but this place just kinda overwhelms you before you've even know it.

It's a very compact, clean, active and intense city.  The people are wonderfully friendly and helpful but watchful all at once.  I can't say that I've had any deep emotional experiences so far except that I have this unshakable feeling that I'm home.  It's early in the trip for sure, but this seems like a very comfortable place to me in most ways, while it is unsettling in others.  Some of you will know what I mean when I say that it actually reminds me of Brooklyn.

We went to the Western Wall today, just for a little while.  I guess that was the most unexpected and undescribable experience so far.  The best way I can put it is to say that it was utterly humbling.  There were no gut-wrenching emotions, just a feeling of being soooo small standing against that wall and praying.  What was once there is far too big for any of us to completely grasp.  I have to go back there again before we leave.

This is a city of contradictions everwhere you look.  We sat peacefully and ate lunch in the Old City just outside the Temple complex and talked as I watched all kinds of people from every walk of life go happily about their business while groups of heavily armed soldiers (boys and girls, none more that 21 to my eyes) patrolled the streets.  I've never felt safer.  It's hard to describe.  But it is not going to be an easy thing for Ephraimites to decide to settle here and just move in, it is a very complicated political environment.  There are many obstacles readily apparent on several fronts, not the least of which is the Two House front.  Hanoch my friend, there is much work to do, we need to talk when I get back.

Tomorrow we are going to the Dead Sea (Masada, En Gedi and Qumran), it's a full day trip.

Anyway, I've attached some photos.  We are well, safe and tired (Patty and Carin wore me out walking today).

Getting up early tomorrow.

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri Dec 12 16:11:39 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:11:39 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update
Message-ID: <121220082211.16094.4942E0430002BF4A00003EDE22230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey all,

Updates attached.

Photo's are; 1. Moonrise over Jerusalem, 2. The Shuk and 3. The Cardo (with Carin and Patty).

Shabbat Shalom.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec 15 17:19:16 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:19:16 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update
Message-ID: <121520082319.7365.4946E57D000C74EB00001CC522216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Sorry for the delay, it's been busy as you'll read.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon Dec 15 21:05:49 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:05:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS5A319A77AAC00558F9131BAF40@phx.gbl>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>	<01a701c95eb4$4ea68570$ebf39050$@com>
	<BLU125-DS5A319A77AAC00558F9131BAF40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <021301c95f2b$34b6afb0$9e240f10$@com>

Hi All and thanks for your help. What do you think about a bough of grapes
like Caleb and Joshua carried?

 

http://www.wcg.org/lit/bible/law/art/etwog58.gif

 

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 9:46 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 

 Yes, thank you so much for speaking up about this, Steve.  One of the most
prevalent problems Ephraim has faced in its history is the tendency to fall
under "foreign" influences.  We certainly do not wish to adopt a symbol of
Hellenism as our banner, even as we Repent of our idolatries and Return to
HaShem.  

 

Though the idea of the Cornucopia - especially with its double symbol
displayed on a current Israeli coin - is very enticing, I believe it is
still against what we are trying to do.  We are "coming out of Babylon" and
all its glittery baggage to which we have historically been so drawn.
Therefore, our symbol needs to be decisively Torah oriented, as well as
decisively non-Hellenistic.

 

When you bring up the point that this is the season we celebrate our Brother
Judah's triumph over Hellenism, I feel we, as Ephraim, are especially
obligated to eschew any and all "foreign" symbols, though it truly is a
difficult thing to do!  We are totally inundated by Greece in our world
today.

 

I think the idea of the double cornucopia is very lovely and fitting in and
of itself, but when you think about its Greek origins, it would probably be
best to pass on it as our symbol.

 

Thanks to you both, Patty and Steve,

 

Pat    

 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 7:54 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 

Thanks for the feedback, Steve. 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:17 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

 


Patty, 

Despite of what the Hasmoneans or others have used, the cornucopia is
basically a Greek symbol, associated with their goddesses and mythologies, (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornucopia ).  You do not wan to use it.
Perhaps some other ways to depict plenty would be more appropriate,
especially now, when approaching Chanukkah, the anniversary of Israel's
triumph over Hellenization. 

Steve


At 05:41 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/related;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011D_01C95E2C.61164070"
Content-Language: en-us

Shalom All!

In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at
Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on
the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.
In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 
Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath
caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."
Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel
bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set
Ephraim before Manasseh.
21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with
you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I
took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."
 
So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has
sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE
blessed..

[]

The back of a current Israeli coin:

[]

Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may
be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:

 
<http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference
/jewish/jewish28a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/jewish/
anc-jewish.htm&usg=__ozkm07V4CXFtyg8ixX7WdoMAGdI=&h=236&w=421&sz=15&hl=en&st
art=38&tbnid=tMfAxiXkZOo0DM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddouble%2Bco
rnucopia%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN> []

I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a
new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to
begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to
comments.

Patty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 


_______________________________________________

  _____  

_______________________________________________

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From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 16 22:51:39 2008
From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:51:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <025e01c95f85$ff258d70$fd70a850$@com>
Message-ID: <908535.60523.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes. tell me what you want and when you want it. It won't be before the first of the year. I can also take clusters from the banner and recreate them into a design for you.

Betty Eddy
  
      
   

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 7:55 AM




 
 







Hi Betty, 

 ? 

Very beautiful work indeed. I am thinking of a double-cluster of
grapes for Ephraim to represent doubly bountiful. Would you be interested in
doing something new?  

 ? 

Patty 

 ? 



From:
dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On
Behalf Of Betty Eddy

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:36 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim 



 ? 


 
  
  take a look at my banner of
  Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the
  bottom of the page. 
  
  Betty Eddy 
  
   ? 
  
  
   ? 
  
  
  

  

  --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote: 
  From: Patty
  <ptyler at aac-usa.com>

  Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim

  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

  Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM 
  
  
  Shalom All! 
  In working on
  a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at Tribal
  emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on the
  Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of
  Joseph.? In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read:  
  Gen 41:52??? And the name of the
  second called he Ephraim: "For God hath caused me to be fruitful
  in the land of my affliction." 
  Gen 48:20?? And he blessed them that day,
  saying, "In thee shall Israel bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim
  and as Manasseh:'" and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

  21??? And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die:
  but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your
  fathers.

  22??? Moreover I have given to thee one portion
  above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my
  sword and with my bow." 
  ? 
  So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful. 
  A popular symbol of
  fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has sometime been used for the
  symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE blessed?. 
   
  The back of a current
  Israeli coin: 
   
  Since Ephraim is
  prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may be an appropriate
  symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans: 
   
  I would like to propose,
  with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a new, modified form of the
  double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to begin, should we adopt this
  as our national symbol? I am looking forward to comments. 
  Patty 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  ? 
  
  
  _______________________________________________ 
 


 ? 



 

_______________________________________________



      
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From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 04:47:57 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 02:47:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism
References: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <683438.64374.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Same story...different century.
?
Acts 9:29[Hakham Sha'ul was] preaching boldly in the name of the Lord: and he spoke and disputed against the Grecian [Hellenist]?Jews; but they were seeking to kill him.

Tracy

?

________________________________
From: Hanoch Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:15:03 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism


With all the posts back and forth, there's a key point being missed.? It's not "Zionists" who are screwing up things in Israel, or who haven't brought
?G-d's kingdom - it's the HELLENISTS.? Zionism is an integral part of Judaism; it's Hellenism that is the enemy ideology.

"The Jews against the Hellenists.? The real struggle."
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rav Meir Kahane HY"D?

??????????Hanoch


      
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Wed Dec 17 06:19:43 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 06:19:43 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism
In-Reply-To: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4948EE5F.8010109@gninc.ca>

Hanoch
 I may try to debate your take a little, in fact though, I think I agree 
with you. I'm sure you are right about Hellenism. Just a few statements: 
I don't know of any nation as a whole who have come close to what 
Judaism has, concerning the keeping of  their faith. Mennonites, not a 
nation, but the following of a Christian sect, offspring of Menno Simon, 
who started out as a Catholic Priest. He has left a lot of writings. 
When we Mennonites didn't know better, we thought for sure there was no 
faith like that of Menno Simons. Yet that faith has now splintered into 
over 2,000 different groups, who if you leave one of them, you can be 
censored as being totally lost in perdition, is that also Hellenism?

  Is it also Hellenism than that caused the Jewish leaders of the USA to 
finance Hitler so he could go through with his plan, for the purpose of 
preferring to do away with all those Jews who were after all just a 
hindrance to peace with the nations in the time of the holocaust? As 
Francisco White sees it in his website? Is it maybe Hellenism that may 
eventually cause the Jews to escape the USA with a plastic bag and their 
Pajama's only, when they will finally want to go home as Rabbi Lazer 
Brody put it? Please, I am not trying to prod any Jew personally, I have 
no person in mind, in America to be guilty. But it does seem to me the 
Jewish people do seem to be quite comfy at what feels so much at home 
here. My question is simply, is that Hellenism? I for myself would not 
hesitate to move to Israel, if it was not for me to have to leave my 
Christian wife. And first of all, not possibly even being able to be 
allowed in. To Israel that is.

I learned to know a young IDF soldier stationed in Winnipeg for quite a 
while, I had some good visits with Him. He, His young wife and little 
son, punctually came to the Herzliah Synagogue in Winnipeg. That was in 
2005 before the Gaza removal of the Jews from Gush Katiff. Than he had 
to go back to Israel to serve in the IDF, to help remove his own 
brothers and sisters, the Jews  from  The Gush, and he seemed to 
sincerely believe that was the thing to do. It so saddened my heart to 
hear that. So much so that i quit going to that Synagogue, because it 
seemed to me most of the Canadian Jews in that Synagogue, (and I came to 
the conclusion, a greater percent of American Jews as well) these were 
the most Orthodox in Winnipeg,  likely were assimilated  with Christian 
and other worldly views.

 So it is not the Zionism that is on the wrong track, it is Hellenism? I 
have to admit that I don't understand it fully. They didn't seem to have 
compassion for such as Rabbi Kahane. Or let's say Moshe Feiglin in our 
time. Will Hellenism be a good excuse for it all if Feiglin too should 
be ousted like he already is being dealt with? And it is not Jews under 
the comfy name Zionism, who are losing out, but hellenism? I think I can 
partly understand what you are saying, but I would appreciate to hear 
your stance. I feel quite lonely here in Canada.

I made a 2000 mile trip this last spring to Toronto, to meet Moshe 
Feiglin, which was no small feat for a lone outcast Mennonite like me, 
at the age of 72, maybe I was going crazy, but I had a strong desire 
just to meet and support  Moshe Feiglin. I did shake hands with him yet. 
Although the look on his face when he searched my face was more like 
what is this, an enemy or a friend. I was almost thrown out by the 
security in the first place, because I had not received my ticket to 
that dinner before I left home, to show to them, they told me I would 
have to go home and get it. I could finally persuade them that I was not 
too dangerous. I was a bit irked by than, this trip had already cost me 
more than I could afford, but I had a feeling this man needed to be 
supported. But at strange places, and every one a stranger to me, I am 
usually a bit tongue tied. There were very friendly people there when I 
finally found those with whom I had had contact.

When the meeting was over at 11 PM I was so weary. Having a very hard 
time finding my way alone in a strange city any time, even in day time. 
I had asked one of the security guards where I could find a reasonably 
priced hotel. And the one he pointed out to me, which took me another 
hour to find, because I am not good at finding my way in a strange city, 
and than at midnight at that. When I finally to my great relief found 
it. It was the closest thing to a nightmare for me to find an office on 
the second flour. And when I finally presented myself to a lonely man 
behind the desk. He seemed to be scared stiff who I might be. And at 
first told me there was no room but than finally offered a room for a 
ridiculously high price, by than I felt so spooked out. I was glad I 
made it back to the car. I thought I would sleep in the car. But I felt 
so uneasy at that place I wanted to just get out of that place, the 
sooner the better. So much for the advice of a Jewish security guard. By 
than it started to snow a wet snow, and when I finally found my way to 
the main highway, the road was treacherous to travel, so much so that I 
met up with a big Semi truck lying on it's side beside the road, and 
another crash a little farther up the road surrounded by fire truck's. I 
was not convinced that it was worth it all. So who is more justified by 
Hellenism, maybe us ignorant Mennonites, or what?

Cornie



Hanoch Young wrote:
> With all the posts back and forth, there's a key point being missed.  
> It's not "Zionists" who are screwing up things in Israel, or who 
> haven't brought
>  G-d's kingdom - it's the HELLENISTS.  Zionism is an integral part of 
> Judaism; it's Hellenism that is the enemy ideology.
>  
> "The Jews against the Hellenists.  The real struggle."
>                                                           Rav Meir 
> Kahane HY"D 
>  
>           */ Hanoch/*
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed Dec 17 06:43:38 2008
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:43:38 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <855590370812161008kaf5e774sc2d848bbe2daa82f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl><027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com><BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl><029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com><855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com><02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com><02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com>
	<855590370812161008kaf5e774sc2d848bbe2daa82f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021401c96045$16be25e0$0400a8c0@marvin>

I read the link below and a few of the articles listed at the bottom of the
article.  I cannot find any wisdom in the wisdom fund!  Did anyone notice
the article quoted different writers / rabbis to support the writers
position but not one time did the writer quote form the Torah(scripture) to
support his argument they the Jews/ Israel should give the land back.    A
year or so ago my youngest daughter commented on a news story about the
fighting in Palestine over the land, she comment what's so important about a
piece of land..  it's just land?    Ah.. Yes!   But with out the land there
is no religion, no truth, no faithful God and no light shining out into the
world!   But then..  there's always Rome!   Choose this day whom you will
serve!

 

Shalom,

Marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:08 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

As an FYI to all: this is from the Neturei Karta (Aramaic for "Guardians of
the City") organization of " anti-Zionists."  I put quotation marks around
"anti-Zionists" because you cannot be Jewish and be "anti-Zionist."  These
are the scum who wave PLO flags at demonstrations, and stand alongside those
who support and cheer the murder of Jewish men, women and children in
Israel.

 

These are the manure who went to Iran to kiss the new Hitler on the cheek.
These are the 'people' behind that article.  They're only lucky that they
have 2 full lines of NYPD riot equipped cops protecting them at these
demonstrations...

 

                Hanoch
                                   (not 'angry,' just astounded..)

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

Shalom all,

 

Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not
write it, but the author can be contacted:

 

www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html

 

Patty


_______________________________________________

 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 17 06:48:59 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:48:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism
In-Reply-To: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
	<4948EE5F.8010109@gninc.ca>
References: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
	<4948EE5F.8010109@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS420CD3A112D40AA390DE1BAF20@phx.gbl>

Hi Cornie,

I know this is addressed to Hanoch, but I would like to answer what I can...........  To me, Hellenism has a two-part base.  The first half of that base is that man (not HaShem) is the measure of all things.  The second is that there are no absolutes.  This base of Hellenism seems to preclude HaShem and His Torah from being our measure of all things, and our absolute final word.

That's just the way I see it.

Love,

Pat


From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 7:19 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism


Hanoch
 I may try to debate your take a little, in fact though, I think I agree with you. I'm sure you are right about Hellenism. Just a few statements: I don't know of any nation as a whole who have come close to what Judaism has, concerning the keeping of  their faith. Mennonites, not a nation, but the following of a Christian sect, offspring of Menno Simon, who started out as a Catholic Priest. He has left a lot of writings. When we Mennonites didn't know better, we thought for sure there was no faith like that of Menno Simons. Yet that faith has now splintered into over 2,000 different groups, who if you leave one of them, you can be censored as being totally lost in perdition, is that also Hellenism?

  Is it also Hellenism than that caused the Jewish leaders of the USA to finance Hitler so he could go through with his plan, for the purpose of preferring to do away with all those Jews who were after all just a hindrance to peace with the nations in the time of the holocaust? As Francisco White sees it in his website? Is it maybe Hellenism that may eventually cause the Jews to escape the USA with a plastic bag and their Pajama's only, when they will finally want to go home as Rabbi Lazer Brody put it? Please, I am not trying to prod any Jew personally, I have no person in mind, in America to be guilty. But it does seem to me the Jewish people do seem to be quite comfy at what feels so much at home here. My question is simply, is that Hellenism? I for myself would not hesitate to move to Israel, if it was not for me to have to leave my Christian wife. And first of all, not possibly even being able to be allowed in. To Israel that is.

I learned to know a young IDF soldier stationed in Winnipeg for quite a while, I had some good visits with Him. He, His young wife and little son, punctually came to the Herzliah Synagogue in Winnipeg. That was in 2005 before the Gaza removal of the Jews from Gush Katiff. Than he had to go back to Israel to serve in the IDF, to help remove his own brothers and sisters, the Jews  from  The Gush, and he seemed to sincerely believe that was the thing to do. It so saddened my heart to hear that. So much so that i quit going to that Synagogue, because it seemed to me most of the Canadian Jews in that Synagogue, (and I came to the conclusion, a greater percent of American Jews as well) these were the most Orthodox in Winnipeg,  likely were assimilated  with Christian and other worldly views.

 So it is not the Zionism that is on the wrong track, it is Hellenism? I have to admit that I don't understand it fully. They didn't seem to have compassion for such as Rabbi Kahane. Or let's say Moshe Feiglin in our time. Will Hellenism be a good excuse for it all if Feiglin too should be ousted like he already is being dealt with? And it is not Jews under the comfy name Zionism, who are losing out, but hellenism? I think I can partly understand what you are saying, but I would appreciate to hear your stance. I feel quite lonely here in Canada. 

I made a 2000 mile trip this last spring to Toronto, to meet Moshe Feiglin, which was no small feat for a lone outcast Mennonite like me, at the age of 72, maybe I was going crazy, but I had a strong desire just to meet and support  Moshe Feiglin. I did shake hands with him yet. Although the look on his face when he searched my face was more like what is this, an enemy or a friend. I was almost thrown out by the security in the first place, because I had not received my ticket to that dinner before I left home, to show to them, they told me I would have to go home and get it. I could finally persuade them that I was not too dangerous. I was a bit irked by than, this trip had already cost me more than I could afford, but I had a feeling this man needed to be supported. But at strange places, and every one a stranger to me, I am usually a bit tongue tied. There were very friendly people there when I finally found those with whom I had had contact.

When the meeting was over at 11 PM I was so weary. Having a very hard time finding my way alone in a strange city any time, even in day time. I had asked one of the security guards where I could find a reasonably priced hotel. And the one he pointed out to me, which took me another hour to find, because I am not good at finding my way in a strange city, and than at midnight at that. When I finally to my great relief found it. It was the closest thing to a nightmare for me to find an office on the second flour. And when I finally presented myself to a lonely man behind the desk. He seemed to be scared stiff who I might be. And at first told me there was no room but than finally offered a room for a ridiculously high price, by than I felt so spooked out. I was glad I made it back to the car. I thought I would sleep in the car. But I felt so uneasy at that place I wanted to just get out of that place, the sooner the better. So much for the advice of a Jewish security guard. By than it started to snow a wet snow, and when I finally found my way to the main highway, the road was treacherous to travel, so much so that I met up with a big Semi truck lying on it's side beside the road, and another crash a little farther up the road surrounded by fire truck's. I was not convinced that it was worth it all. So who is more justified by Hellenism, maybe us ignorant Mennonites, or what?

Cornie



Hanoch Young wrote: 
  With all the posts back and forth, there's a key point being missed.  It's not "Zionists" who are screwing up things in Israel, or who haven't brought
   G-d's kingdom - it's the HELLENISTS.  Zionism is an integral part of Judaism; it's Hellenism that is the enemy ideology.

  "The Jews against the Hellenists.  The real struggle."
                                                            Rav Meir Kahane HY"D 

             Hanoch
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 17 06:50:31 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:50:31 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P (R and
	Q)?
In-Reply-To: <200812150618.mBF6I3aM031548@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>
	<45718436-C37B-4B3C-BE64-32C3C5B65595@earthlink.net>
	<200812150618.mBF6I3aM031548@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <889356AA-0B3A-4E27-957B-6D603A424BC3@earthlink.net>

I think this is truly quite amazing Steve. I have yet to do mine but  
it might come out the same in that my father had a tradition that the  
Tabors came form "Bohemia," even though I have traced his line back to  
England in the 1500s. I still don't know what to make of the  
chronology the DNA scientist put on these migratiions. My hunch is  
that they are more recent than normally acknowledged, and they would,  
of course, have to be if they involve migrations as recently as 2500  
years ago.

Take care,

James


On Dec 15, 2008, at 1:18 AM, Steve Mathe wrote:

> James, Hanoch, Patty, All,
>
> FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup  
> R1b1b2. It is dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and  
> is a minority in Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I may  
> be related to some straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who seem to  
> be some clan of the Scots that remained behind in Eastern Europe/  
> Ukraine/Osettia.
>
> See: "Brit-Am Now"-1250,  Benjamin Tribe of Israel, Brit-Am Now  
> 147 , Brit-Am Now 955, "KHAZARS". Israelite Tribes in Exile" (more  
> on a word search for "Alans" on Yair Davidy's http://britam.org site).
>
> See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho for the Scottish  
> connection of the SNP Mutation M269, which I have and found my  
> closest match with some Scots living now.
>
> Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water,  
> and when I left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor  
> had any desire whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on some  
> deep level, that I did not belong there.  Oh yes, I never went for  
> the anti-semitic stuff either, but always felt an affinity to  
> Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes too.....
>
> Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or  
> Not will be a work of many, many volumes.....
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:
>> Patty,
>>
>> Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records,  
>> it seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite  
>> tribes. In fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather  
>> astounded at the correlations with his work. See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
>>
>> I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is  
>> getting his conclusions about P, though I would be interested to  
>> hear.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:
>>
>>> Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
>>>
>>>
>>> Ephraim is the most probable founder of the Y-Chromosome DNA  
>>> Haplogroup P, which is one of the primary suggestions in Israelite  
>>> Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and  
>>> female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA  
>>> haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time.  
>>> Connecting this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups R and Q to  
>>> Ephraim will of course receive much criticism from the so-called  
>>> "Secular" Educational Establishment and Population Geneticists in  
>>> general.
>>>
>>> http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 17 06:51:01 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:51:01 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
In-Reply-To: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl><027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com><BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl><029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com><855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com><02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com><02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com><855590370812161008kaf5e774sc2d848bbe2daa82f@mail.gmail.com>
	<021401c96045$16be25e0$0400a8c0@marvin>
References: <290307.49935.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><BLU125-DS6BB6225985A28B28F2C74BAF50@phx.gbl><027001c95f88$3170b230$94521690$@com><BLU125-DS24EF9CE34BC94414B0709BAF50@phx.gbl><029601c95f8d$4c103d90$e430b8b0$@com><855590370812160853w31e1cd0rab9c47dc5befeba5@mail.gmail.com><02ea01c95fa1$fdb1a160$f914e420$@com><02f501c95fa3$83737660$8a5a6320$@com><855590370812161008kaf5e774sc2d848bbe2daa82f@mail.gmail.com>
	<021401c96045$16be25e0$0400a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS20FD3AE4B8C734D7889F8BAF20@phx.gbl>

Terrific, Marvin!  Thank you!!!!


From: mhyde 
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 7:43 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism


I read the link below and a few of the articles listed at the bottom of the article.  I cannot find any wisdom in the wisdom fund!  Did anyone notice the article quoted different writers / rabbis to support the writers position but not one time did the writer quote form the Torah(scripture) to support his argument they the Jews/ Israel should give the land back.    A year or so ago my youngest daughter commented on a news story about the fighting in Palestine over the land, she comment what's so important about a piece of land..  it's just land?    Ah.. Yes!   But with out the land there is no religion, no truth, no faithful God and no light shining out into the world!   But then..  there's always Rome!   Choose this day whom you will serve!

 

Shalom,

Marvin

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:08 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism

 

As an FYI to all: this is from the Neturei Karta (Aramaic for "Guardians of the City") organization of " anti-Zionists."  I put quotation marks around "anti-Zionists" because you cannot be Jewish and be "anti-Zionist."  These are the scum who wave PLO flags at demonstrations, and stand alongside those who support and cheer the murder of Jewish men, women and children in Israel.

 

These are the manure who went to Iran to kiss the new Hitler on the cheek.  These are the 'people' behind that article.  They're only lucky that they have 2 full lines of NYPD riot equipped cops protecting them at these demonstrations...

 

                Hanoch
                                   (not 'angry,' just astounded..)

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

Shalom all,

 

Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did not write it, but the author can be contacted:

 

www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html

 

Patty


_______________________________________________

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 17 07:22:54 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:22:54 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <908535.60523.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <908535.60523.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS4D2AB03FD69B33B3427C4BAF20@phx.gbl>




From: Betty Eddy 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:51 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim


      Yes. tell me what you want and when you want it. It won't be before the first of the year. I can also take clusters from the banner and recreate them into a design for you.


      Betty Eddy







      --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

        From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
        Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 7:55 AM


        Hi Betty,



        Very beautiful work indeed. I am thinking of a double-cluster of grapes for Ephraim to represent doubly bountiful. Would you be interested in doing something new? 



        Patty



        From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Eddy
        Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:36 AM
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim



              take a look at my banner of Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the bottom of the page.

              Betty Eddy







              --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

              From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
              Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
              To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
              Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM

              Shalom All!

              In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.  In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 

              Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."

              Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
              21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
              22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."



              So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

              A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE blessed?.



              The back of a current Israeli coin:



              Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:



              I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to comments.

              Patty





































_______________________________________________ 



_______________________________________________ 




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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 07:24:54 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:24:54 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism
In-Reply-To: <4948EE5F.8010109@gninc.ca>
References: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
	<4948EE5F.8010109@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <855590370812170524o636f82d6r9f8785bd9b88d67@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Cornie -

    I will try to respond to your note briefly now, and gladly elaborate
later, as time permits.  Firstly though, if you're ever anywhere near New
York (at least within this year), please let me know - you're more then
welcome to stay here.

   I've cut & pasted to try to respond top everything you wrote.  Here goes:

 Yet that faith has now splintered into over 2,000 different groups, who if
you leave one of them, you can be censored as being totally lost in
perdition, is that also Hellenism?

   Sorry, I know very little about Mennonites, and can only speak to
Hellinism as it relates to the Jewish people and Jewish history.

  Is it also Hellenism than that caused the Jewish leaders of the USA to
finance Hitler so he could go through with his plan, for the purpose of
preferring to do away with all those Jews who were after all just a
hindrance to peace with the nations in the time of the holocaust?

   HUH?!?!  Where did you hear that American Jews financed Hitler?  That's
one of the most outrageous comments I've ever heard.  Not only outrageous,
but not true, either.

    When/how were Jews considered a "hindrance to peace?"  They were not an
issue at all, between Germany, Soviet Union, England, Japan, etc.

    As Francisco White sees it in his website?
     Sorry, I've never heard of him, and have no idea what's on his website.

Is it maybe Hellenism that may eventually cause the Jews to escape the USA
with a plastic bag and their Pajama's only, when they will finally want to
go home as Rabbi Lazer Brody put it?

   Personally, I would define it as largely assimilation, and part Hellenist
ideas, that they could be considered 'good Americans' like everyone else in
the USA.  I do not believe that the majority of American Jews will EVER
leave the US of their own free will.

Please, I am not trying to prod any Jew personally, I have no person in
mind, in America to be guilty. But it does seem to me the Jewish people do
seem to be quite comfy at what feels so much at home here. My question is
simply, is that Hellenism?

Listen, American Jews have assimilated to a large degree, intermarried, and
have no understanding, affiliation or interest in ANYTHING Jewish at all.
That is certainly the Greek/Hellenist ideal - that everyone would be like
everyone else.  American Jews ARE very comfy here...they feel that it will
go on forever; it won't.  No place in the exile has ever provided permanent
rest for Jews.  Not Spain, not Babylon, and now - not even India.

   Within 11 days, G-d willing, I will have* both* of my daughters living in
Israel - that's been my goal, my obsession.  I've sacrificed *many* things
for their education, and for them to be the kind of young women they are.
Now it's time for *me *to pack up and get out of Dodge....

most of the Canadian Jews in that Synagogue, (and I came to the conclusion,
a greater percent of American Jews as well) these were the most Orthodox in
Winnipeg,  likely were assimilated  with Christian and other worldly views.

  I think that is 100% true, with very, very few exceptions...

 So it is not the Zionism that is on the wrong track, it is Hellenism? I
have to admit that I don't understand it fully. They didn't seem to have
compassion for such as Rabbi Kahane.

*  Okay, here's the root of the confusion: people are confusing "Zionism"
with the Labor/Socialist/Hellenist elite that have largely run Israel for
most of its existence, including the resettlement of Israel during the early
part of the 20th Century.  They are the ones with the secular schools, and
the desire to be a "Hebrew speaking Portugal" (A Rav Kahane quote).*

   The religious Zionists, are the ones who settled Gush Katif (largely),
Yehuda (Judea) & Shomron (Samaria), and are our 'best and brightest.'

Or let's say Moshe Feiglin in our time. Will Hellenism be a good excuse for
it all if Feiglin too should be ousted like he already is being dealt with?

   Moshe Feiglin is one of the great Jews of this generation, and he (as Rav
Kahane did, too), would define himself as a Zionist.  If he's ousted, it's
because of Likud politics...and those from the Likud that ARE NOT faithful
to any values but 'feathering their own nests.'

  And it is not Jews under the comfy name Zionism, who are losing out, but
hellenism? I think I can partly understand what you are saying, but I would
appreciate to hear your stance. I feel quite lonely here in Canada.

    Cornie, please email me your mailing address, I'd like to send you some
of the books that Rabbi Kahane wrote.  I think you'll have a much clearer
understanding of who is a Zionist, and who is not.  And where
Hellinism/Assimilation fits in.

 So who is more justified by Hellenism, maybe us ignorant Mennonites, or
what?

  Sorry Cornie, I have no idea what you mean by this..

  Very best regards,
             *Hanoch*
(A Zionist, who is returning home to Israel)



On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca> wrote:

> Hanoch
>  I may try to debate your take a little, in fact though, I think I agree
> with you. I'm sure you are right about Hellenism. Just a few statements: I
> don't know of any nation as a whole who have come close to what Judaism has,
> concerning the keeping of  their faith. Mennonites, not a nation, but the
> following of a Christian sect, offspring of Menno Simon, who started out as
> a Catholic Priest. He has left a lot of writings. When we Mennonites didn't
> know better, we thought for sure there was no faith like that of Menno
> Simons. Yet that faith has now splintered into over 2,000 different groups,
> who if you leave one of them, you can be censored as being totally lost in
> perdition, is that also Hellenism?
>
>   Is it also Hellenism than that caused the Jewish leaders of the USA to
> finance Hitler so he could go through with his plan, for the purpose of
> preferring to do away with all those Jews who were after all just a
> hindrance to peace with the nations in the time of the holocaust? As
> Francisco White sees it in his website? Is it maybe Hellenism that may
> eventually cause the Jews to escape the USA with a plastic bag and their
> Pajama's only, when they will finally want to go home as Rabbi Lazer Brody
> put it? Please, I am not trying to prod any Jew personally, I have no person
> in mind, in America to be guilty. But it does seem to me the Jewish people
> do seem to be quite comfy at what feels so much at home here. My question is
> simply, is that Hellenism? I for myself would not hesitate to move to
> Israel, if it was not for me to have to leave my Christian wife. And first
> of all, not possibly even being able to be allowed in. To Israel that is.
>
> I learned to know a young IDF soldier stationed in Winnipeg for quite a
> while, I had some good visits with Him. He, His young wife and little son,
> punctually came to the Herzliah Synagogue in Winnipeg. That was in 2005
> before the Gaza removal of the Jews from Gush Katiff. Than he had to go back
> to Israel to serve in the IDF, to help remove his own brothers and sisters,
> the Jews  from  The Gush, and he seemed to sincerely believe that was the
> thing to do. It so saddened my heart to hear that. So much so that i quit
> going to that Synagogue, because it seemed to me most of the Canadian Jews
> in that Synagogue, (and I came to the conclusion, a greater percent of
> American Jews as well) these were the most Orthodox in Winnipeg,  likely
> were assimilated  with Christian and other worldly views.
>
>  So it is not the Zionism that is on the wrong track, it is Hellenism? I
> have to admit that I don't understand it fully. They didn't seem to have
> compassion for such as Rabbi Kahane. Or let's say Moshe Feiglin in our time.
> Will Hellenism be a good excuse for it all if Feiglin too should be ousted
> like he already is being dealt with? And it is not Jews under the comfy name
> Zionism, who are losing out, but hellenism? I think I can partly understand
> what you are saying, but I would appreciate to hear your stance. I feel
> quite lonely here in Canada.
>
> I made a 2000 mile trip this last spring to Toronto, to meet Moshe Feiglin,
> which was no small feat for a lone outcast Mennonite like me, at the age of
> 72, maybe I was going crazy, but I had a strong desire just to meet and
> support  Moshe Feiglin. I did shake hands with him yet. Although the look on
> his face when he searched my face was more like what is this, an enemy or a
> friend. I was almost thrown out by the security in the first place, because
> I had not received my ticket to that dinner before I left home, to show to
> them, they told me I would have to go home and get it. I could finally
> persuade them that I was not too dangerous. I was a bit irked by than, this
> trip had already cost me more than I could afford, but I had a feeling this
> man needed to be supported. But at strange places, and every one a stranger
> to me, I am usually a bit tongue tied. There were very friendly people there
> when I finally found those with whom I had had contact.
>
> When the meeting was over at 11 PM I was so weary. Having a very hard time
> finding my way alone in a strange city any time, even in day time. I had
> asked one of the security guards where I could find a reasonably priced
> hotel. And the one he pointed out to me, which took me another hour to find,
> because I am not good at finding my way in a strange city, and than at
> midnight at that. When I finally to my great relief found it. It was the
> closest thing to a nightmare for me to find an office on the second flour.
> And when I finally presented myself to a lonely man behind the desk. He
> seemed to be scared stiff who I might be. And at first told me there was no
> room but than finally offered a room for a ridiculously high price, by than
> I felt so spooked out. I was glad I made it back to the car. I thought I
> would sleep in the car. But I felt so uneasy at that place I wanted to just
> get out of that place, the sooner the better. So much for the advice of a
> Jewish security guard. By than it started to snow a wet snow, and when I
> finally found my way to the main highway, the road was treacherous to
> travel, so much so that I met up with a big Semi truck lying on it's side
> beside the road, and another crash a little farther up the road surrounded
> by fire truck's. I was not convinced that it was worth it all. So who is
> more justified by Hellenism, maybe us ignorant Mennonites, or what?
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
> Hanoch Young wrote:
>
>  With all the posts back and forth, there's a key point being missed.
> It's not "Zionists" who are screwing up things in Israel, or who haven't
> brought
>  G-d's kingdom - it's the HELLENISTS.  Zionism is an integral part of
> Judaism; it's Hellenism that is the enemy ideology.
>
> "The Jews against the Hellenists.  The real struggle."
>                                                           Rav Meir Kahane
> HY"D
>
>           * Hanoch*
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 07:32:42 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:32:42 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?
Message-ID: <855590370812170532h20d16746p74241341a0242478@mail.gmail.com>

A picture DOES speak a thousand words...look at it below, and ask yourself,
*WHY* you would take *ANYTHING* these guys say seriously?!?
                 *  Hanoch*
**
   Counter demonstration supporting President Ahmadinejad of Iran

*September 25, 2008:*  Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews joined in a
counter-demonstration to protest the demonstration against Iranian President
Ahmadinejad.
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 17 07:33:29 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:33:29 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <908535.60523.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <908535.60523.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS74040934792F2C958762DBAF20@phx.gbl>

Sorry, I accidentally "sent" a blank page before.  Was sitting here, hesitant to say anything, but it may be a good thing to mention what I am wondering about.  Isaiah admonishes Ephraim by calling them "the drunkards of Ephraim."  (Is. 28:1)  This is referring to spiritual drunkenness because of our proclivity to embrace idolatry, which is referred to by Jeremiah as the wine of Babylon which has made all the nations drunk.  (Jer 51:7,8)

If we use a double cluster of grapes (wine), is that the image we should project?  

Sorry to bring this up, but thought maybe it should be considered.

Love,

Pat


From: Betty Eddy 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:51 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim


      Yes. tell me what you want and when you want it. It won't be before the first of the year. I can also take clusters from the banner and recreate them into a design for you.


      Betty Eddy







      --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

        From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
        Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 7:55 AM


        Hi Betty,



        Very beautiful work indeed. I am thinking of a double-cluster of grapes for Ephraim to represent doubly bountiful. Would you be interested in doing something new? 



        Patty



        From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Eddy
        Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:36 AM
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim



              take a look at my banner of Joseph, Ephraim and Manassah. Go to bettyeddy.com/art and scroll down to the bottom of the page.

              Betty Eddy







              --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

              From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
              Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim
              To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
              Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:41 PM

              Shalom All!

              In working on a cover for our upcoming Ephraim album, I have been looking at Tribal emblems, the standards of the 12 Tribes. I have found much artwork on the Twelve Tribes, but very little on the Ephraim, the half-tribe of Joseph.  In looking at the promise given to Ephraim by Israel, we read: 

              Gen 41:52    And the name of the second called he Ephraim: "For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."

              Gen 48:20   And he blessed them that day, saying, "In thee shall Israel bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh:'" and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
              21    And Israel said unto Joseph, "Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
              22    Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."



              So EPHRAIM has come to mean: doubly fruitful.

              A popular symbol of fruitfulness in America is the cornucopia and has sometime been used for the symbol of Ephraim. But Ephraim is to be DOUBLE blessed?.



              The back of a current Israeli coin:



              Since Ephraim is prophesied to be DOUBLY fruitful, the double-cornucopia may be an appropriate symbol. This was also the symbol for the Hasmoneans:



              I would like to propose, with your input, a NEW STANDARD for Ephraim - a new, modified form of the double-cornucopia. I have an artist here ready to begin, should we adopt this as our national symbol? I am looking forward to comments.

              Patty





































_______________________________________________ 



_______________________________________________ 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Dec 17 08:15:19 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:15:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?
In-Reply-To: <855590370812170532h20d16746p74241341a0242478@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812170532h20d16746p74241341a0242478@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004e01c96051$e62483e0$b26d8ba0$@com>

Hey Hanoch,

 

I don't think you can lump all "Anti-Zionist Jews" together, and I don't
ascribe to everything a certain group says or does. 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:33 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?

 

A picture DOES speak a thousand words...look at it below, and ask yourself,
WHY you would take ANYTHING these guys say seriously?!?

                   Hanoch

 



Counter demonstration supporting President Ahmadinejad of Iran


  <http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Demonstrations/20080925/IMG_3438.jpg> 


September 25, 2008:  Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews joined in a
counter-demonstration to protest the demonstration against Iranian President
Ahmadinejad.

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 08:30:28 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 06:30:28 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?
In-Reply-To: <004e01c96051$e62483e0$b26d8ba0$@com>
References: <855590370812170532h20d16746p74241341a0242478@mail.gmail.com>
	<004e01c96051$e62483e0$b26d8ba0$@com>
Message-ID: <855590370812170630j4aacd35k748ae62671ff4920@mail.gmail.com>

Patty,

   *You *quoted Neturei Karta; the link was to their website; this is
*from*THEIR website, this is
*THEIR *picture.  *This* is what they're proud of, what they stand for.

    I think it's important to see the quotation in the context of who made
it.  These dirt bags support Iran and their plans to destroy Israel...

    And to clarify once again, you cannot be Jewish and be an anti-Zionist.
No matter WHAT clothing you wear, how long your peyot (side curls) are, or
if you speak Yiddish, you aren't.  *The essence of the Torah is to be a
certain people, living in a certain land, living a certain way.   THAT is
what the Torah commands.  *How can you separate the Land part (Zionism) from
that???

    And Rav Hirsch wrote in the 19th Century, when the only Zionists were
deeply religious individuals.  So he was totally off base..and once again,
if he had stayed in his beloved Franfurt, they would have turned him into a
bar of soap....
                  *  Hanoch

*
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 6:15 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

>  Hey Hanoch,
>
>
>
> I don't think you can lump all "Anti-Zionist Jews" together, and I don't
> ascribe to everything a certain group says or does.
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:33 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?
>
>
>
> A picture DOES speak a thousand words...look at it below, and ask yourself,
> *WHY* you would take *ANYTHING* these guys say seriously?!?
>
>                  *  Hanoch*
>
>
>    Counter demonstration supporting President Ahmadinejad of Iran
>
>  *September 25, 2008:*  Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews joined in a
> counter-demonstration to protest the demonstration against Iranian President
> Ahmadinejad.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Dec 17 09:25:06 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:25:06 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?
In-Reply-To: <855590370812170630j4aacd35k748ae62671ff4920@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812170532h20d16746p74241341a0242478@mail.gmail.com>	<004e01c96051$e62483e0$b26d8ba0$@com>
	<855590370812170630j4aacd35k748ae62671ff4920@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006501c9605b$a60537a0$f20fa6e0$@com>

Okay, thanks Hanoch, I will consider what you are saying carefully. I think
what I am trying to separate here is the HOW we come to the Land.  I don't
think it is any less Jewish or Zionist to want YHWH to be a part of this.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:30 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?

 

Patty, 

 

   You quoted Neturei Karta; the link was to their website; this is from
THEIR website, this is THEIR picture.  This is what they're proud of, what
they stand for.

 

    I think it's important to see the quotation in the context of who made
it.  These dirt bags support Iran and their plans to destroy Israel...

 

    And to clarify once again, you cannot be Jewish and be an anti-Zionist.
No matter WHAT clothing you wear, how long your peyot (side curls) are, or
if you speak Yiddish, you aren't.  The essence of the Torah is to be a
certain people, living in a certain land, living a certain way.   THAT is
what the Torah commands.  How can you separate the Land part (Zionism) from
that???

 

    And Rav Hirsch wrote in the 19th Century, when the only Zionists were
deeply religious individuals.  So he was totally off base..and once again,
if he had stayed in his beloved Franfurt, they would have turned him into a
bar of soap....

                    Hanoch

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 6:15 AM, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

Hey Hanoch,

 

I don't think you can lump all "Anti-Zionist Jews" together, and I don't
ascribe to everything a certain group says or does. 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:33 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?

 

A picture DOES speak a thousand words...look at it below, and ask yourself,
WHY you would take ANYTHING these guys say seriously?!?

                   Hanoch

 



Counter demonstration supporting President Ahmadinejad of Iran


Error! Filename not specified.


September 25, 2008:  Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews joined in a
counter-demonstration to protest the demonstration against Iranian President
Ahmadinejad.

 


_______________________________________________

 

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From Correim at gninc.ca  Wed Dec 17 09:31:19 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:31:19 -0600
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism]
In-Reply-To: <494842DA.8070905@westnet.com.au>
References: <494842DA.8070905@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <49491B47.1050600@gninc.ca>

Thank you Joe, but according to Hannoch it is not zionist falt, but 
Hellenism. I am a slow learner.

Cornie



Joe Indomenico wrote:
> _*/AMEN V'AMEN CORNIE!!!!!!
>
> /*_/Well said and well written.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> /
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [Dialogue] Judaism: An Alternative to Zionism
> From:
> Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca>
> Date:
> Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:42:35 -0600
> To:
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> To:
> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
>
>
> Hi Patty and all
> I realize this is a sensitive subject. I just read further into this 
> website you suggest Patty:/ *An Alternative to Zionism */and copied 
> the content of a plaque in my previous e-mail  This copper plaque 
> weighing some 37 pounds is available for a little over a thousand 
> dollars, you can order it. You can also  order tracts from them, in 
> the same vein of thought. The following address to an article you 
> suggest, is part of the thoughts source where that plaque comes from.
>
> I read the article you refer to Patty, and going into that website a 
> little further, I found  this plaque. I can see more and more why the 
> nations seem to get wool hung over their eye's concerning the true 
> Israel.  I realize that Israel is founded on zionist views that will 
> never make it  to stand before the almighty G-d. The God of Abraham 
> Isaac and Jacob. Those heads of the present day Israel, who bulldoze 
> down innocent Jewish people's home in the middle of the night, without 
> pre-notification,  a family of nine children involved. And chase out 
> the occupants, comprised of some 20 famlies who legally live in a 
> house called the Peace House in Hebron, legally owned by a Jew, right 
> in the land of Israel. Which happened within the last month or 
> two.This is the work of Zionism if I have it right. These are also the 
> people who imprison innocent Jews who take a non-compulsive stand 
> against this corruption of zionism by demonstrations, and eye opening 
> proof that they are truly corrupt, doing what they do.
>
> The stand of  Manhigut Yehudit within the party of the Likud, Moshe 
> Feiglin, who believe on /Turning the *State of the Jews *into the 
> *Jewish State */really scares these zionist's, because, should this 
> G-d fearing party get into leading the country, they, zionism, will 
> all at once be exposed for what their corruption really stands for. As 
> long as they can make the world , especially the Arabs around them 
> believe  that  these G-d fearing Jews are the cause of all problems.  
> This way their own private scandals, as well as the scandals of all 
> other nations can be covered up and be blamed on the Jews.
>
> But these G-d fearing Jews have to go  through the fire of tribulation 
> for a reason, as gold and silver is tried, to make them pure, and to 
> prove to the nations around them, who is the true G-d.  Will Allah be 
> the one? When the time is ripe a wrench may be thrown into the gears 
> of all the corrupt planners of this world. And who does the Torah say 
> will be the victors? Will it be zionism? Will it be these others by 
> the power of a civil war? Not necessarily. I don't think so. It will 
> be those who dare to take a stand against *all odds*. It will be those 
> who have faith in the G-D of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. It way well be 
> that a unity will have to first be established among the faithful 
> among all believers, before the coming of the Messiah, who will than 
> bring peace to this trembling world can take place. Maybe all knees 
> will first have to bow, in recognition of the one who made the 
> blueprint in the first place.
>
> At the present time, the true ruler of this world, Baruch Hashem, may 
> be working behind the scenes, and may appear not able to do anything 
> against this evil all around us. Yet the Creator, blessed be His name, 
> has a clear blue print quite obvious for those who study it, written 
> in His own Bible, the Torah and the writings of the Prophets, those 
> who are studying it and live by it's standards, will not have to 
> depend on the IDF, or a covil war, but the promises of Him who has 
> everything in His control.
>
> I have to admit, I believe this plaque, and what it stands for, as 
> well as the core belief of Christianity, may not be able to stand 
> against the fire of Hashem, when this world is going to stand before 
> the judgment. But they likely were all needed to give us a chance to  
> study to be approved of G-D, to rightly divide the word of G-d.  A 
> workman that will not need to be ashamed.
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
> Patty wrote:
>>
>> Shalom all,
>>
>>  
>>
>> Here is an interesting article on this topic, please note that I did 
>> not write it, but the author can be contacted:
>>
>>  
>>
>> www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html 
>> <http://www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0401-NetureiKarta.html>
>>
>>  
>>
>> Patty
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 17 09:52:08 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:52:08 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism
In-Reply-To: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0FE8816A-7E79-4833-9EB5-48995E5DAD9B@earthlink.net>

I understand how the term "Hellenist" can be used metaphorically in  
modern times but I wonder if it really fits so well, given the  
historical shape that "hellenistic" ideas too in antiquity. My own  
sense is that the "secular" is a better description, wanting to be  
"like the nations" in terms of an acceptable, multi-cultural, western  
demoncracy. The Hellenists in antiquity were far from secular, but  
wanted to promote Greco-Roman forms of dualism, mysticism, astrology,  
ideas about the Logos, Neo-platonism and the like.

But still, I am not disagreeing with your essential point re: Zionism,  
of course...since the idea is the major theme of all the prophets.

Sorry, the historian in me got the best of me. BTW, I have a comment  
on this in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, p.62ff and elsewhere...

James


On Dec 16, 2008, at 10:15 PM, Hanoch Young wrote:

> With all the posts back and forth, there's a key point being  
> missed.  It's not "Zionists" who are screwing up things in Israel,  
> or who haven't brought
>  G-d's kingdom - it's the HELLENISTS.  Zionism is an integral part  
> of Judaism; it's Hellenism that is the enemy ideology.
>
> "The Jews against the Hellenists.  The real struggle."
>                                                           Rav Meir  
> Kahane HY"D
>
>            Hanoch
> _______________________________________________

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Dec 17 09:58:33 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:58:33 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism
In-Reply-To: <0FE8816A-7E79-4833-9EB5-48995E5DAD9B@earthlink.net>
References: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>
	<0FE8816A-7E79-4833-9EB5-48995E5DAD9B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <009601c96060$519620d0$f4c26270$@com>

Thanks James, I think what I am trying to figure out here is the difference
between Biblical Zionism and Secular Zionism, as there does seem to be a
difference.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:52 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism

 

I understand how the term "Hellenist" can be used metaphorically in modern
times but I wonder if it really fits so well, given the historical shape
that "hellenistic" ideas too in antiquity. My own sense is that the
"secular" is a better description, wanting to be "like the nations" in terms
of an acceptable, multi-cultural, western demoncracy. The Hellenists in
antiquity were far from secular, but wanted to promote Greco-Roman forms of
dualism, mysticism, astrology, ideas about the Logos, Neo-platonism and the
like. 

 

But still, I am not disagreeing with your essential point re: Zionism, of
course...since the idea is the major theme of all the prophets.

 

Sorry, the historian in me got the best of me. BTW, I have a comment on this
in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, p.62ff and elsewhere...

 

James

 

 

On Dec 16, 2008, at 10:15 PM, Hanoch Young wrote:





With all the posts back and forth, there's a key point being missed.  It's
not "Zionists" who are screwing up things in Israel, or who haven't brought

 G-d's kingdom - it's the HELLENISTS.  Zionism is an integral part of
Judaism; it's Hellenism that is the enemy ideology.

 

"The Jews against the Hellenists.  The real struggle."

                                                          Rav Meir Kahane
HY"D 

 

           Hanoch

_______________________________________________

 

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From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Wed Dec 17 11:27:51 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:27:51 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P
	(R and Q)?
In-Reply-To: <889356AA-0B3A-4E27-957B-6D603A424BC3@earthlink.net>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>
	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>
	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>
	<45718436-C37B-4B3C-BE64-32C3C5B65595@earthlink.net>
	<200812150618.mBF6I3aM031548@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
	<889356AA-0B3A-4E27-957B-6D603A424BC3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200812171727.mBHHRmDO027134@mail382c25.carrierzone.com>

James,

Yes, it could be that the dates assigned to some these migrations are 
more recent.  The frozen mummies found in Urumchi seem to be blond 
European types  wearing tartans. Though some may have intermarried 
with the locals, they still make us wonder how they could be related 
to Israelitish peoples of today and of more recent history than it is 
assumed by historians at the present.

Steve


At 04:50 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote:
>I think this is truly quite amazing Steve. I have yet to do mine but 
>it might come out the same in that my father had a tradition that 
>the Tabors came form "Bohemia," even though I have traced his line 
>back to England in the 1500s. I still don't know what to make of the 
>chronology the DNA scientist put on these migratiions. My hunch is 
>that they are more recent than normally acknowledged, and they 
>would, of course, have to be if they involve migrations as recently 
>as 2500 years ago.
>
>Take care,
>
>James
>
>
>On Dec 15, 2008, at 1:18 AM, Steve Mathe wrote:
>
>>James, Hanoch, Patty, All,
>>
>>FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup 
>>R1b1b2. It is dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and 
>>is a minority in Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I 
>>may be related to some straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who 
>>seem to be some clan of the Scots that remained behind in Eastern 
>>Europe/ Ukraine/Osettia.
>>
>>See: <http://britam.org/now/1250Now.html>"Brit-Am 
>>Now"-1250,  <http://britam.org/benjamin.html>Benjamin Tribe of 
>>Israel, <http://britam.org/now/now147.html>Brit-Am Now 147 , 
>><http://britam.org/now/955Now.html>Brit-Am Now 955, 
>><http://britam.org/khazars.html>"KHAZARS". Israelite Tribes in 
>>Exile" (more on a word search for "Alans" on Yair Davidy's 
>><http://britam.org>http://britam.org site).
>>
>>See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho for the Scottish 
>>connection of the SNP Mutation M269, which I have and found my 
>>closest match with some Scots living now.
>>
>>Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water, 
>>and when I left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor 
>>had any desire whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on some 
>>deep level, that I did not belong there.  Oh yes, I never went for 
>>the anti-semitic stuff either, but always felt an affinity to 
>>Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes too.....
>>
>>Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or 
>>Not will be a work of many, many volumes.....
>>
>>Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:
>>>Patty,
>>>
>>>Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, 
>>>it seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite 
>>>tribes. In fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather 
>>>astounded at the correlations with his work. See, for example: 
>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
>>>
>>>I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is 
>>>getting his conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear.
>>>
>>>Best,
>>>
>>>James
>>>
>>>
>>>On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:
>>>
>>>>Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephraim>Ephraim is the most 
>>>>probable founder of the 
>>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroups>Y-Chromosome 
>>>>DNA 
>>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_%28Y-DNA%29>Haplogroup 
>>>>P, which is one of the primary suggestions in 
>>>><http://jewsandjoes.com/israelite-and-noahic-haplogroup-hypotheses.html>Israelite 
>>>>Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants 
>>>>and female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA 
>>>>haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time. 
>>>>Connecting this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups 
>>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29>R and 
>>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29>Q to 
>>>>Ephraim will of course receive much criticism from the so-called 
>>>>"Secular" Educational Establishment and 
>>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics>Population 
>>>>Geneticists in general.
>>>>
>>>><http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html>http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>_______________________________________________
>
>_______________________________________________
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Dec 17 11:31:49 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:31:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P	(R and
	Q)?
In-Reply-To: <200812150618.mBF6I3aM031548@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<45718436-C37B-4B3C-BE64-32C3C5B65595@earthlink.net>
	<200812150618.mBF6I3aM031548@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <00b301c9606d$599db7e0$0cd927a0$@com>

Shalom Steve!

 

Where did you have your DNA researched?

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 1:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P (R and
Q)?

 

James, Hanoch, Patty, All, 

FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup R1b1b2.
It is dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and is a minority in
Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I may be related to some
straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who seem to be some clan of the Scots
that remained behind in Eastern Europe/ Ukraine/Osettia.

See:  <http://britam.org/now/1250Now.html> "Brit-Am Now"-1250,
<http://britam.org/benjamin.html> Benjamin Tribe of Israel, Brit-Am Now 147
<http://britam.org/now/now147.html>  ,  <http://britam.org/now/955Now.html>
Brit-Am Now 955,  <http://britam.org/khazars.html> "KHAZARS". Israelite
Tribes in Exile" (more on a word search for "Alans" on Yair Davidy's
http://britam.org site).

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho for the Scottish
connection of the SNP Mutation M269, which I have and found my closest match
with some Scots living now. 

Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water, and when I
left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor had any desire
whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on some deep level, that I did not
belong there.  Oh yes, I never went for the anti-semitic stuff either, but
always felt an affinity to Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes
too..... 

Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or Not will
be a work of many, many volumes.....

Steve







At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:



Patty,

Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, it seems
to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite tribes. In fact, it
fits his work so closely I find myself rather astounded at the correlations
with his work. See, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is getting his
conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear. 

Best,

James


On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:




Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
 

Ephraim <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephraim>  is the most probable founder
of the Y-Chromosome
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroups>  DNA
Haplogroup <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_%28Y-DNA%29>  P, which
is one of the primary suggestions in Israelite
<http://jewsandjoes.com/israelite-and-noahic-haplogroup-hypotheses.html>
Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and female
descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA haplogroups, but P seems
to be the most apparent at this time. Connecting this haplogroup and its
sub-haplogroups R <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29>
and Q <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29>  to Ephraim
will of course receive much criticism from the so-called "Secular"
Educational Establishment and Population Geneticists
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics>  in general.

http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html


 

 

 
 
_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Dec 17 12:06:16 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:06:16 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The Unknown Warrior of Chanukah (& one little mitzva)
Message-ID: <705C19B0BBDC4708BAF40AB55695DDDA@bettylaptop>

Friends, I found this short article on the Arutz Sheva website and thought
it both interesting and inspiriational as it shows the widespread effect of
just one seeming small but significant deed done in faith.

 

I wanted to share it to encourage all of us to do whatever good deeds that
we can, as we never know the impact that a word, gesture or good deed done
might have on others.  

 

I was talking to a friend of mine over the phone last night who is making
plans for aliyah and she told me that she had learned that the definition of
a "mitzvah" is much more than a good deed.  It is of course a commandment,
but, according to Yiddish, also means a "connection."  HaShem gave us the
mitzvot to connect us to Him, and in connecting to Him, we connect to one
another.

 

This little story brings out this point very poigantly, and its lesson is
not limited to the Jewish people, for it is about maintaining hope, even in
the midst of darkness and troublesome times and connecting to our G-d and to
one another.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 


The Unknown Warrior of Chanukah


by Rabbi Dr Raymond Apple

There's one person whose courage no one thinks of.

 

Writing about Chanukah, Morris Joseph said, "It is good for Jewish lads to
include warriors of their own race in their galaxy of heroes." Obviously,
what he had in mind was Judah and the Maccabean band, with all their
subsequent incarnations down the centuries. But with all that is said and
written about the Maccabean exploits, it seems most strange that there is
one person whose courage no one thinks of, an unsung hero, an unknown 
His was an epic deed, as valiant in its way as the military deeds that
repulsed the enemy.
warrior.

Who is he? He is a kohen whose name the history books do not record. He is
the kohen who, when the enemy was at the gates of the Temple hell-bent on
destroying the sanctuary, hid away a little jar of pure oil. It was his jar
of oil with which, when the victory was assured, the Eternal Light was
rekindled. It was his jar of oil from which the torch of Jewish freedom and
hope was re-lit.

His was an epic deed, as valiant in its way as the military deeds that
repulsed the enemy. That kohen was a man of faith. There would come a day,
he firmly believed, when the struggle would be over, when the light could be
rekindled. He was a man of vision who took the long-term view, who provided
for the future when most others thought only of the present. He simply could
not imagine that the people of Israel and its faith and heritage would be
annihilated.

There is much that his example can teach us. Life brings us all our share of
disappointment and defeat. There are times when we feel everything around is
black. It is then that we should think of the unsung hero of Chanukah and
find the hidden reserves to fight on, to live and persist.

In Jewish life generally we may never have officially admitted what we owe
to the unknown priestly hero, but our instinct has recognised his message.
In every generation, we have needed hidden resources to inspire us to
determine that Judaism had to, and would, survive. When Maimonides' thirteen
principles were formulated with the introductory words, "I believe with
perfect faith" - ani ma'amin - would anyone have thought that Jews would
have needed to go into gas chambers singing, "I believe with perfect faith
in the coming of the Mashiach"?

But thanks to the Temple priest, we knew we had no option but to believe -
even when belief was most difficult; to hope - even when despair seemed more
natural; to hold onto Judaism - even when the temptation was to sell it for
a mess of pottage. Unsung kohen, we salute you!

 

 

 

 

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Dec 17 12:27:09 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:27:09 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT PRAYER FOR DEAR RUDY IN ICU!
Message-ID: <73899EBEB8CC490F930637E8B1DF8ECC@bettylaptop>

Pat Robbins just called to say that Linda had called her.  Rudy is in ICU.
His procedure went okay, but afterwards he had difficulty breathing, so they
had to put him in ICU. He is also having other problems; the fluids they had
to give him overtaxed his kidneys.  Linda's daughter is having a very
difficult time and is calling all the children to come to the hospital.

 

Linda has asked all of us to pray fervently!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

 

 

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Dec 17 12:30:10 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:30:10 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT PRAYER FOR DEAR RUDY IN ICU!
In-Reply-To: <73899EBEB8CC490F930637E8B1DF8ECC@bettylaptop>
References: <73899EBEB8CC490F930637E8B1DF8ECC@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <00d401c96075$7fd0cbc0$7f726340$@com>

Oh dear, thanks Elisheva, we will pray for Rudy's recovery.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:27 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT PRAYER FOR DEAR RUDY IN ICU!

 

Pat Robbins just called to say that Linda had called her.  Rudy is in ICU.
His procedure went okay, but afterwards he had difficulty breathing, so they
had to put him in ICU. He is also having other problems; the fluids they had
to give him overtaxed his kidneys.  Linda's daughter is having a very
difficult time and is calling all the children to come to the hospital.

 

Linda has asked all of us to pray fervently!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

 

 

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Dec 17 12:36:35 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:36:35 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] 150 Bnei Menashes to Migrate to Israel
In-Reply-To: <73899EBEB8CC490F930637E8B1DF8ECC@bettylaptop>
References: <73899EBEB8CC490F930637E8B1DF8ECC@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <00df01c96076$66087ed0$32197c70$@com>

Maybe we'll be next!!

 


 


Printed from
 <http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/>
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?photoid=1799437

	
	

 



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=3360029

		 	 
	
	

150 Bnei Menashes to Migrate to Israel

Dec 2008, 0235 hrs IST, Sangzuala Hmar, TNN

	

 

AIZAWL: Israel has reportedly given a nod to 150 Bnei Menashes from the
North-East to migrate to that country early next year. 

The Bnei Menashes believe themselves to be the descendants of the Manasseh,
one of the 10 lost tribes of Israel. Over 7,000 Bnei Menashes live in
Mizoram and Manipur bordering Myanmar and Bangladesh. Jewish leaders in
Aizawl have claimed that Israel's interior minister Meir Sheetrit has
granted the permission to 150 Bnei Menashes to go to that country. 

"We cannot tell the exact date when these people will go to Israel. But we
hope it will be in January of February," said Jeremiah Fanai, adviser of the
Shavei Israel organization. 

The first batch of Bnei Menashes who will migrate to Israel since 2006 will
be from Manipur, while the last batch will be from Mizoram. "The batch will
comprise Kukis, Vaipheis and other Zo ethnic tribes from Manipur," Fanai
said. 

Bulk of the Bnei Menashes, who have migrated to Israel, have settled in and
around Ma'alot, Karmiel and Afula in the north and Bet-El, Jerusalem, Kiryat
Arba and Nitzan. 

Avior Khawlhring, who went to Israel in 2006, told TOI over phone from
Ma'alot that the latest decision of the Israeli interior ministry would come
as a ray of hope for thousands of Mizo Jews awaiting for their turn to go to
the "Land of milk and honey". 

Ruth Klein, a woman from Bet El, Israel and who is at present in Aizawl,
said, "The Bnei Menashes are accepted by the people from Israel cordially.
The Mizos are very kind people, good and very friendly. Even in the town I
come from, there is a mutual understanding between the locals and the
Mizos." The 150 Bnei Menashe Jews will go to Israel on special tourist
visas, and not under the Law of Return. The entire cost of their travel will
be borne by Shavei Israel. 

		

 

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Wed Dec 17 13:14:57 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 05:14:57 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] URGENT PRAYER FOR DEAR RUDY IN ICU!]
Message-ID: <49494FB1.5060504@westnet.com.au>

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From: "Betty Givin" <bkgivin at charter.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT PRAYER FOR DEAR RUDY IN ICU!
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:27:09 -0600
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From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Wed Dec 17 13:58:39 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:58:39 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup
	P	(R and Q)?
Message-ID: <200812171958.mBHJwZbJ000310@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>

Hi Patty,

This is the one I used, and will use for further research a it 
becomes available:  http://www.ysearch.org/.. 
http://www.familytreedna.com/Default.aspx?

Steve

At 09:31 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote:
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C96043.70C7AFE0"
>Content-Language: en-us
>
>Shalom Steve!
>
>Where did you have your DNA researched?
>
>Patty
>
>From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
>[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
>Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 1:18 AM
>To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup 
>P (R and Q)?
>
>James, Hanoch, Patty, All,
>
>FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup 
>R1b1b2. It is dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and 
>is a minority in Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I may 
>be related to some straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who seem to 
>be some clan of the Scots that remained behind in Eastern Europe/ 
>Ukraine/Osettia.
>
>See: <http://britam.org/now/1250Now.html>"Brit-Am 
>Now"-1250,  <http://britam.org/benjamin.html>Benjamin Tribe of 
>Israel, <http://britam.org/now/now147.html>Brit-Am Now 147 , 
><http://britam.org/now/955Now.html>Brit-Am Now 955, 
><http://britam.org/khazars.html>"KHAZARS". Israelite Tribes in 
>Exile" (more on a word search for "Alans" on Yair Davidy's 
>http://britam.org site).
>
>See also: 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho 
>for the Scottish connection of the SNP Mutation M269, which I have 
>and found my closest match with some Scots living now.
>
>Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water, 
>and when I left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor 
>had any desire whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on some 
>deep level, that I did not belong there.  Oh yes, I never went for 
>the anti-semitic stuff either, but always felt an affinity to 
>Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes too.....
>
>Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or 
>Not will be a work of many, many volumes.....
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:
>
>Patty,
>
>Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, 
>it seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite 
>tribes. In fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather 
>astounded at the correlations with his work. See, for example: 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
>
>I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is getting 
>his conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear.
>
>Best,
>
>James
>
>
>On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:
>
>
>Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
>
>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephraim>Ephraim is the most probable 
>founder of the 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroups>Y-Chromosome 
>DNA 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_%28Y-DNA%29>Haplogroup P, 
>which is one of the primary suggestions in 
><http://jewsandjoes.com/israelite-and-noahic-haplogroup-hypotheses.html>Israelite 
>Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and 
>female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA 
>haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time. 
>Connecting this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29>R and 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29>Q to Ephraim 
>will of course receive much criticism from the so-called "Secular" 
>Educational Establishment and 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics>Population 
>Geneticists in general.
>
><http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html>http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>_______________________________________________
>_______________________________________________
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Wed Dec 17 14:18:33 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:18:33 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The issue is Hellenism...NOT Zionism
In-Reply-To: <855590370812170524o636f82d6r9f8785bd9b88d67@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812161915i10424084q41d5c46ed464e267@mail.gmail.com>	<4948EE5F.8010109@gninc.ca>
	<855590370812170524o636f82d6r9f8785bd9b88d67@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49495E99.7060606@gninc.ca>

Hanoch
thank you for your kind and prompt answer and invitation to stop in. 
Mennonites started in Holland about 500 years ago. Menno Simon lost a 
brother in the Christian war in Zurich I think it was Switzerland. That 
is when Menno decided to join the straggly group of non-resistant 
Christians who were persecuted by the Catholic church quite severely. He 
soon became their leader, and often had to flee from home and was in 
great danger of losing his life too. The biggest book you would find in 
a Mennonite home would normally be "The Martyrs Mirror" containing over 
a thousand pages of Martyrs from Jesus, his Apostles times, to around 
Menno Simon's time or actually a little later.

Where did I hear the Jews financed Hitler? Just go to www.hirhome.com 
the website of Historical Investigative Research by Francisco Gil-White. 
He used to be a Professor in the *Until June 2006, he was Assistant 
Professor of Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania (he was fired 
for investigating the real aims of US foreign policy 
<http://www.hirhome.com/bio.htm>).
**
Francisco has investigated a lot of this stuff that truly is scary, if 
it is true of course.

My address is:
Cornelius Reimer
Box 196 Rosenort
R0G 1W0  Manitoba
Canada
*
You will find more as you scroll down in Blue

Hanoch Young wrote :
> Hi Cornie -
>  
>     I will try to respond to your note briefly now, and gladly 
> elaborate later, as time permits.  Firstly though, if you're ever 
> anywhere near New York (at least within this year), please let me know 
> - you're more then welcome to stay here.  
>  
>    I've cut & pasted to try to respond top everything you wrote.  Here 
> goes:
>  
>  Yet that faith has now splintered into over 2,000 different groups, 
> who if you leave one of them, you can be censored as being totally 
> lost in perdition, is that also Hellenism?
>  
>    Sorry, I know very little about Mennonites, and can only speak to 
> Hellinism as it relates to the Jewish people and Jewish history.
>
>   Is it also Hellenism than that caused the Jewish leaders of the USA 
> to finance Hitler so he could go through with his plan, for the 
> purpose of preferring to do away with all those Jews who were after 
> all just a hindrance to peace with the nations in the time of the 
> holocaust?
>  
>    HUH?!?!  Where did you hear that American Jews financed Hitler?  
> That's one of the most outrageous comments I've ever heard.  Not only 
> outrageous, but not true, either. You say it is not true, if you know 
> that it is not true what Francisco writes, but you have not checked 
> out his website, maybe you need to check it out. I don't know how much 
> time you have to check it out. But I would sure like to know where you 
> can prove him wrong. There is lots of stuff in there that is kind of 
> hair raising. And Francisco has been interviewed by Israel National 
> news if I have it right. Just go to 
> www.hirhome.com/israel/leaders0.htm "The Crisis of 1933 " He talks 
> about Reform Rabbi Stephen Wise and others, way up on the ladder of 
> recognition. This is an 83 page article.
>  
>     When/how were Jews considered a "hindrance to peace?"  They were 
> not an issue at all, between Germany, Soviet Union, England, Japan, 
> etc. I guess you could call it, those who oppose Hellenism, or 
> assimilation.
>  
>     As Francisco White sees it in his website?
>      Sorry, I've never heard of him, and have no idea what's on his 
> website.Fracisco used to be opposed to Judaism, as a none Jew, till he 
> realized how unfair the world treats the observant Jews.
>  
> Is it maybe Hellenism that may eventually cause the Jews to escape the 
> USA with a plastic bag and their Pajama's only, when they will finally 
> want to go home as Rabbi Lazer Brody put it?
>  
>    Personally, I would define it as largely assimilation, and part 
> Hellenist ideas, that they could be considered 'good Americans' like 
> everyone else in the USA.  I do not believe that the majority of 
> American Jews will EVER leave the US of their own free will.
>  
> Please, I am not trying to prod any Jew personally, I have no person 
> in mind, in America to be guilty. But it does seem to me the Jewish 
> people do seem to be quite comfy at what feels so much at home here. 
> My question is simply, is that Hellenism?
>  
> Listen, American Jews have assimilated to a large degree, 
> intermarried, and have no understanding, affiliation or interest in 
> ANYTHING Jewish at all.  That is certainly the Greek/Hellenist ideal - 
> that everyone would be like everyone else.  American Jews ARE very 
> comfy here...they feel that it will go on forever; it won't.  No place 
> in the exile has ever provided permanent rest for Jews.  Not Spain, 
> not Babylon, and now - not even India.
>  
>    Within 11 days, G-d willing, I will have* both* of my daughters 
> living in Israel - that's been my goal, my obsession.  I've sacrificed 
> *many* things for their education, and for them to be the kind of 
> young women they are.  Now it's time for *me *to pack up and get out 
> of Dodge....
>  
> most of the Canadian Jews in that Synagogue, (and I came to the 
> conclusion, a greater percent of American Jews as well) these were the 
> most Orthodox in Winnipeg,  likely were assimilated  with Christian 
> and other worldly views.
>  
>   I think that is 100% true, with very, very few exceptions...
>
>  So it is not the Zionism that is on the wrong track, it is Hellenism? 
> I have to admit that I don't understand it fully. They didn't seem to 
> have compassion for such as Rabbi Kahane.
>  
> *  Okay, here's the root of the confusion: people are confusing 
> "Zionism" with the Labor/Socialist/Hellenist elite that have largely 
> run Israel for most of its existence, including the resettlement of 
> Israel during the early part of the 20th Century.  They are the ones 
> with the secular schools, and the desire to be a "Hebrew speaking 
> Portugal" (A Rav Kahane quote).*
>  
>    The religious Zionists, are the ones who settled Gush Katif 
> (largely), Yehuda (Judea) & Shomron (Samaria), and are our 'best and 
> brightest.' 
>  
> Or let's say Moshe Feiglin in our time. Will Hellenism be a good 
> excuse for it all if Feiglin too should be ousted like he already is 
> being dealt with?
>  
>    Moshe Feiglin is one of the great Jews of this generation, and he 
> (as Rav Kahane did, too), would define himself as a Zionist.  If he's 
> ousted, it's because of Likud politics...and those from the Likud that 
> ARE NOT faithful to any values but 'feathering their own nests.'
>  
>   And it is not Jews under the comfy name Zionism, who are losing out, 
> but hellenism? I think I can partly understand what you are saying, 
> but I would appreciate to hear your stance. I feel quite lonely here 
> in Canada.
>  
>     Cornie, please email me your mailing address, I'd like to send you 
> some of the books that Rabbi Kahane wrote.  I think you'll have a much 
> clearer understanding of who is a Zionist, and who is not.  And where 
> Hellinism/Assimilation fits in.
>
>  So who is more justified by Hellenism, maybe us ignorant Mennonites, 
> or what?
>  
>   Sorry Cornie, I have no idea what you mean by this.. All I mean to 
> say is that Christians have already been Hellenized as early as any of 
> the Jews if not quite a bit earlier.
Hanoch I am very grateful for all your input. What would we have without 
you in the dialogue group.

Cornie

>
>   Very best regards,
>              */Hanoch/*
> (A Zionist, who is returning home to Israel)
>
>
>  
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca 
> <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>> wrote:
>
>     Hanoch
>      I may try to debate your take a little, in fact though, I think I
>     agree with you. I'm sure you are right about Hellenism. Just a few
>     statements: I don't know of any nation as a whole who have come
>     close to what Judaism has, concerning the keeping of  their faith.
>     Mennonites, not a nation, but the following of a Christian sect,
>     offspring of Menno Simon, who started out as a Catholic Priest. He
>     has left a lot of writings. When we Mennonites didn't know better,
>     we thought for sure there was no faith like that of Menno Simons.
>     Yet that faith has now splintered into over 2,000 different
>     groups, who if you leave one of them, you can be censored as being
>     totally lost in perdition, is that also Hellenism?
>
>       Is it also Hellenism than that caused the Jewish leaders of the
>     USA to finance Hitler so he could go through with his plan, for
>     the purpose of preferring to do away with all those Jews who were
>     after all just a hindrance to peace with the nations in the time
>     of the holocaust? As Francisco White sees it in his website? Is it
>     maybe Hellenism that may eventually cause the Jews to escape the
>     USA with a plastic bag and their Pajama's only, when they will
>     finally want to go home as Rabbi Lazer Brody put it? Please, I am
>     not trying to prod any Jew personally, I have no person in mind,
>     in America to be guilty. But it does seem to me the Jewish people
>     do seem to be quite comfy at what feels so much at home here. My
>     question is simply, is that Hellenism? I for myself would not
>     hesitate to move to Israel, if it was not for me to have to leave
>     my Christian wife. And first of all, not possibly even being able
>     to be allowed in. To Israel that is.
>
>     I learned to know a young IDF soldier stationed in Winnipeg for
>     quite a while, I had some good visits with Him. He, His young wife
>     and little son, punctually came to the Herzliah Synagogue in
>     Winnipeg. That was in 2005 before the Gaza removal of the Jews
>     from Gush Katiff. Than he had to go back to Israel to serve in the
>     IDF, to help remove his own brothers and sisters, the Jews  from 
>     The Gush, and he seemed to sincerely believe that was the thing to
>     do. It so saddened my heart to hear that. So much so that i quit
>     going to that Synagogue, because it seemed to me most of the
>     Canadian Jews in that Synagogue, (and I came to the conclusion, a
>     greater percent of American Jews as well) these were the most
>     Orthodox in Winnipeg,  likely were assimilated  with Christian and
>     other worldly views.
>
>      So it is not the Zionism that is on the wrong track, it is
>     Hellenism? I have to admit that I don't understand it fully. They
>     didn't seem to have compassion for such as Rabbi Kahane. Or let's
>     say Moshe Feiglin in our time. Will Hellenism be a good excuse for
>     it all if Feiglin too should be ousted like he already is being
>     dealt with? And it is not Jews under the comfy name Zionism, who
>     are losing out, but hellenism? I think I can partly understand
>     what you are saying, but I would appreciate to hear your stance. I
>     feel quite lonely here in Canada.
>
>     I made a 2000 mile trip this last spring to Toronto, to meet Moshe
>     Feiglin, which was no small feat for a lone outcast Mennonite like
>     me, at the age of 72, maybe I was going crazy, but I had a strong
>     desire just to meet and support  Moshe Feiglin. I did shake hands
>     with him yet. Although the look on his face when he searched my
>     face was more like what is this, an enemy or a friend. I was
>     almost thrown out by the security in the first place, because I
>     had not received my ticket to that dinner before I left home, to
>     show to them, they told me I would have to go home and get it. I
>     could finally persuade them that I was not too dangerous. I was a
>     bit irked by than, this trip had already cost me more than I could
>     afford, but I had a feeling this man needed to be supported. But
>     at strange places, and every one a stranger to me, I am usually a
>     bit tongue tied. There were very friendly people there when I
>     finally found those with whom I had had contact.
>
>     When the meeting was over at 11 PM I was so weary. Having a very
>     hard time finding my way alone in a strange city any time, even in
>     day time. I had asked one of the security guards where I could
>     find a reasonably priced hotel. And the one he pointed out to me,
>     which took me another hour to find, because I am not good at
>     finding my way in a strange city, and than at midnight at that.
>     When I finally to my great relief found it. It was the closest
>     thing to a nightmare for me to find an office on the second flour.
>     And when I finally presented myself to a lonely man behind the
>     desk. He seemed to be scared stiff who I might be. And at first
>     told me there was no room but than finally offered a room for a
>     ridiculously high price, by than I felt so spooked out. I was glad
>     I made it back to the car. I thought I would sleep in the car. But
>     I felt so uneasy at that place I wanted to just get out of that
>     place, the sooner the better. So much for the advice of a Jewish
>     security guard. By than it started to snow a wet snow, and when I
>     finally found my way to the main highway, the road was treacherous
>     to travel, so much so that I met up with a big Semi truck lying on
>     it's side beside the road, and another crash a little farther up
>     the road surrounded by fire truck's. I was not convinced that it
>     was worth it all. So who is more justified by Hellenism, maybe us
>     ignorant Mennonites, or what?
>
>     Cornie
>
>
>
>     Hanoch Young wrote:
>>     With all the posts back and forth, there's a key point being
>>     missed.  It's not "Zionists" who are screwing up things in
>>     Israel, or who haven't brought
>>      G-d's kingdom - it's the HELLENISTS.  Zionism is an integral
>>     part of Judaism; it's Hellenism that is the enemy ideology.
>>      
>>     "The Jews against the Hellenists.  The real struggle."
>>                                                               Rav
>>     Meir Kahane HY"D 
>>      
>>               */ Hanoch/*
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>       
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 15:02:13 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:02:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Funny]
References: <4948574B.8020101@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <179940.45832.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Shalom Joe,
Yeah, I saw that one a couple of days ago. I'm getting inspired again!!
Tracy




________________________________
From: Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:35:07 PM
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Funny]

Shalom Tracy,

funny stuff mate !

Already passed it on to some Chinese Christian friends of mine.

I have one for you, seeing that you love music.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=R4_TSN2GT24&feature=related

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.






-----Inline Message Follows-----


http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1791939


      
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Wed Dec 17 15:07:18 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:07:18 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?]
Message-ID: <49496A06.6040503@westnet.com.au>

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From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:25:06 -0500
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Dec 17 15:21:19 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:21:19 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?]
In-Reply-To: <49496A06.6040503@westnet.com.au>
References: <49496A06.6040503@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <011e01c9608d$698db680$3ca92380$@com>

Hi Joe,

 

I currently believe that bloodshed may have been necessary for Israel to
become a nation again; however, I see Israel as a secular entity, run by
secular Jews. I would like to consider, as Yohannan the Baptizer and Yeshua
taught, repentance and return to the Torah Faith as a way to real peace and
the ushering in of the Kingdom of YHWH. So in this vein, I have been
studying the concept of Zionism, from a Biblical and Secular point of view.
I am sorry if I sound a little confusing.

 

Love & Blessings,

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 4:07 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?]

 

Shalom Patty,

I have been away from my computer due to work commitments that are
culminating as we wind down for our annual summer vacation here in the land
down under. The dead lines between now and Christmas are quite challenging.

I have just caught up on the latest flurry of postings.

I am a bit confused regarding what you are actually trying to say. The
dialogue seems to be a bit disjointed with you starting a thread by
introducing an article by Rabbi Weiss , Rabbi Hirsh under the umbrella of
"Neturei Karta". Your comments send out a mixed message regarding the notion
that the formation of the modern state of Yisrael is counterfeit, non
Biblical and that HaShem is not behind or included in this process. 

The fact that you question the how ??gives the impression that you may also
be following the same thought pattern, or am I mistaken? You quoted Rabbi
Hirsh and Rabbi Weiss to convey and give weight to the subject matter. Hence
my reply and the much stronger worded response from Hanoch. So where do you
sit on this issue ? I am confused. Are you questioning that the "how "may
not sit with the interpretation of the politically correct. That a secular
Israel is somehow anathema to HaShem ? That the blood and gore of war by
hawks are not prerequisites to the "Kingdom of G-d "? That the coming to the
land can only be achieved by spiritual means? I do not read this anywhere in
the Tanack.

The Torah spells out ( please refer to my previous posts for references)
that the land was to be conquered by force, driving out all 7 Canaanite
nations with no treaties lest they become a thorn in your side and HaShem do
to you what He purposed for them. Remember that the memory of Amalek had to
be blotted out.

Before the Messianic era of Isaiah where the beating of swords into
plowshares will be the order of the day, we have the prophetic word of
HaShem through Yoel :





Joel Chapter 4


?  ????, ?????? ?????????? ????????--??????? ??????:  ?????? ???? (???????)
???-??????? ????????, ?????????????. 

1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the
captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,(end of days) 


?  ?????????????, ???-????-?????????, ??????????????, ???-????? ???????????;
???????????????? ?????? ????, ???-?????? ??????????? ?????????? ??????
????????? ?????????, ?????-???????, ????????. 

2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of
Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there for My people
and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and
divided My land. 


?  ?????-??????, ?????? ??????; ??????????? ???????? ??????????,
????????????? ??????? ???????? ????????????. 

3 And they have cast lots for My people; and have given a boy for an harlot,
and sold a girl for wine, and have drunk. 


?  ????? ???-?????? ???, ??? ?????????, ?????, ?????????? ?????????;
?????????, ?????? ???????????? ?????, ?????-????????? ?????? ?????, ???
??????? ??????? ?????????? ????????????. 

4 And also what are ye to Me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the regions of
Philistia? will ye render retribution on My behalf? and if ye render
retribution on My behalf, swiftly, speedily will I return your retribution
upon your own head. 


?  ??????-????????? ?????????, ??????????; ????????????, ?????????,
????????, ?????????????. 

5 Forasmuch as ye have taken My silver and My gold, and have carried into
your temples My goodly treasures; 


?  ??????? ???????? ??????? ????????????, ?????????? ??????? ???????????,
??????? ??????????, ????? ?????????. 

6 the children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto
the sons of Jevanim, that ye might remove them far from their border; 


?  ??????? ????????--???-?????????, ??????-?????????? ????? ???????;
???????????? ?????????, ????????????. 

7 behold, I will stir them up out of the place whither ye have sold them,
and will return your retribution upon your own head; 


?  ???????????? ???-????????? ?????-????????????, ?????? ?????? ????????,
?????????? ???????????, ???-????? ??????:  ???? ??????, ???????.  {?} 

8 and I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children
of Judah, and they shall sell them to the men of Sheba, to a nation far off;
for the LORD hath spoken. {P} 


?  ???????-????, ??????????, ?????????, ?????????; ????????,
?????????????--????????? ???????, ???? ???????? ????????????. 

9 Proclaim ye this among the nations, prepare war; stir up the mighty men;
let all the men of war draw near, let them come up. 


?  ??????? ????????? ??????????, ???????????????? ??????????; ?????????,
?????? ???????? ?????. 

10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning-hooks into spears; let
the weak say: 'I am strong.' 


??  ??????? ??????? ???-????????? ?????????, ????????????; ???????, ???????
?????? ????????????. 

11 Haste ye, and come, all ye nations round about, and gather yourselves
together; thither cause Thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD! 


??  ???????? ????????? ?????????, ???-????? ???????????:  ???? ????, ??????
????????? ???-????-?????????--?????????. 

12 Let the nations be stirred up, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat;
for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. 


??  ???????? ??????, ???? ?????? ??????; ?????? ?????, ????-???????
????--????????? ??????????, ???? ?????? ???????. 

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; come, tread ye, for the
winepress is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 


??  ????????? ?????????, ???????? ????????:  ???? ?????? ???? ??????,
???????? ????????. 

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD
is near in the valley of decision. 


??  ??????? ????????, ???????; ???????????, ??????? ???????. 

15 The sun and the moon are become black, and the stars withdraw their
shining. 


??  ??????? ?????????? ????????, ??????????????? ?????? ??????, ??????????,
???????? ???????; ??????? ??????? ????????, ???????? ??????? ??????????. 

16 And the LORD shall roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem,
and the heavens and the earth shall shake; but the LORD will be a refuge
unto His people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel. 


??  ???????????, ???? ????? ?????? ??????????, ??????, ??????????
???-????????; ????????? ???????????? ??????, ???????? ???-?????????-????
????.  {?} 

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God, dwelling in Zion My holy
mountain; then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass
through her any more. {S} 


??  ??????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??????, ?????????????
?????????? ?????, ?????-???????? ????????, ??????? ?????; ?????????, ???????
?????? ?????, ??????????, ???-????? ???????????. 

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down
sweet wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the brooks of Judah
shall flow with waters; and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the
LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. 


??  ?????????, ?????????? ???????, ????????, ?????????? ???????? ????????;
??????? ?????? ????????, ??????-???????? ???-?????? ??????????. 

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for
the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent
blood in their land. 


?  ?????????, ???????? ???????; ?????????????, ?????? ??????. 

20 But Judah shall be inhabited for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to
generation. 


??  ???????????, ?????? ???-?????????; ???????, ?????? ??????????.  {?} 

21 And I will hold as innocent their blood that I have not held as innocent;
and the LORD dwelleth in Zion. {P}


Also remember that King Shaul who went out and fought the battles of HaShem,
was amongst the prophets , disobeyed HaShem by not destroying Agag and the
Amalekites completely and presumptuously taking the office of Priesthood was
still the annointed of HaShem. His successor was waiting behind the scenes.
King Shaul went after David in order to destroy him. 

I believe that the leader that the people requested in order to be just like
the other nations is similar to the current situation in Yisrael. Yes it
does have a brilliant start but then flounders due to disobedience. The
compromise of King Shaul in not wiping out Amalek is the compromise of
modern Yisrael in not going on with the job.

What do we learn from this . The future King David did not touch, criticize
nor harm the anointed of HaShem.
King Shaul was still part of HaShem's process in the establishing the
promised Davidic Dynasty.
His downfall was disobedience and yet he paved the way, softened up the
enemy for David and the future United Kingdom of Yisrael.

We may not agree on the "how" but be reassured that the process will play
out according to HaShem's goodwill and pleasure. The current Yisrael, warts
and all is still HaShem's anointed . The transition is what is called the
birth pangs of Mashiach. 

May he come speedily in our day !!!!!

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.



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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Wed Dec 17 16:22:43 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:22:43 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.
In-Reply-To: <65FD0442ECAF4D3CB0C0E414E0B85FD1@bettylaptop>
References: <121620082144.18950.494821410002DD4100004A0622243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><BLU125-DS272F2B32B53610CEAA6A4BAF50@phx.gbl>
	<65FD0442ECAF4D3CB0C0E414E0B85FD1@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <121720082222.19446.49497BB2000D029600004BF622230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

At the end of the tour at Yad VaShem is the Hall of Names.

It is a circular room about 50 feet in diameter.  In the center is an impressive work of art which consists of a tall conical display suspended from the cieling which is covered on the inside with the photographs of Holocaust victims and at the very top is a circular skylight.  Below it is a large hole in the floor whose edge is protected by a glass wall.  Beneath the hole is what appears to be an excavation in the stone of the hill intoa small cave that is filled with water.  The effect is one of connection between heaven and earth and I think it is supposed to represent the completeness of G-d's creation.

Around the edge of the circular floor of the hall is another glass wall on the other side of which is an open space (down to about the level of the pool) about 10 feet across.  On the other side of the space is the archive of the names of those who died in Holocaust.  A wall of books from floor to ceiling encircling the entire hall except for the entryway.

Just about the time that I noticed that there there was a whole section of the archive without any books in it, I heard a guide for one of the other tour groups explaining in English that while it is a well established fact that six million Jews died in that tragedy, only four million names have been identified.  

The empty space is for the other two million names that will  most probably never be known.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" <bkgivin at charter.net>: -------------- 


Hey Eliron,
 
It seems that since you are in the Land that your Hebrew name would be appropriate here, especially after what you witnessed this day with your visit to Yad VaShem.  I came away with a similar feeling?no words to describe after visiting the Holocaust Memorial Museum here in Dallas a number of years ago, and I am sure that Yad VaShem was even more soul retching?
 
I just don?t think we can ever, ever imagine the horrific things that were done to so many innocent people who suffered beyond words?and why?   Because they were Jews?like the Jews in Mumbai?they were tortured and they died simply because they were Jews.  Baseless hatred can never be understood except by those who possess it and blindly choose to carry it out!
 
I was astounded by the figure that was recently quoted on another list?2 million of the Jewish victims that died still remain NAMELESS!   As the number of living Holocaust survivors dwindles, we have an even stronger responsibility to keep their memories alive and to do all that we can to see that this never, never happens again.
 
I can see how a visit to Yad VaShem changes ones perspective on the world?how very sobering.
 
Indeed we must never forget?we must charge ourselves and one another to always remember!
 
Elisheva
 
 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:58 PM
To: Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.
 
Amen, John. Yad Vashem changes ones perspective on the world.
 
Pat  
 
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:44 PM
To: Dialogue 
Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.
 
Hey folks,
 
Short update today.
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
size=2 width="100%" align=center> 
_______________________________________________
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Wed Dec 17 16:46:14 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:46:14 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] THESE are the guys you're quoting?!?!?
In-Reply-To: <855590370812170532h20d16746p74241341a0242478@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <121720082246.4836.4949813600033785000012E422230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

GOOD GRIEF!

Why do they think that they speak for Judaism?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Hanoch Young" <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- 


A picture DOES speak a thousand words...look at it below, and ask yourself, WHY you would take ANYTHING these guys say seriously?!?
                   Hanoch

Counter demonstration supporting President Ahmadinejad of Iran

September 25, 2008:  Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews joined in a counter-demonstration to protest the demonstration against Iranian President Ahmadinejad.
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Wed Dec 17 17:22:46 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:22:46 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome HaplogroupP	(R and Q)?
In-Reply-To: <200812171958.mBHJwZbJ000310@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <121720082322.26691.494989C600028E110000684322230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Patty,

This is the same one Carin and I used.  It's important to use the same database so that the available information will grow and improve the data-mining efforts.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>: -------------- 

Hi Patty, 

This is the one I used, and will use for further research a it becomes available:  http://www.ysearch.org/.. http://www.familytreedna.com/Default.aspx?

Steve

At 09:31 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C96043.70C7AFE0"
Content-Language: en-us

Shalom Steve!
 
Where did you have your DNA researched?
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 1:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P (R and Q)?
 
James, Hanoch, Patty, All, 

FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup R1b1b2. It is dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and is a minority in Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I may be related to some straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who seem to be some clan of the Scots that remained behind in Eastern Europe/ Ukraine/Osettia.

See: "Brit-Am Now"-1250,  Benjamin Tribe of Israel, Brit-Am Now 147 , Brit-Am Now 955, "KHAZARS". Israelite Tribes in Exile" (more on a word search for "Alans" on Yair Davidy's http://britam.org site).

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho for the Scottish connection of the SNP Mutation M269, which I have and found my closest match with some Scots living now. 

Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water, and when I left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor had any desire whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on some deep level, that I did not belong there.  Oh yes, I never went for the anti-semitic stuff either, but always felt an affinity to Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes too..... 

Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or Not will be a work of many, many volumes.....

Steve







At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:

Patty,

Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, it seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite tribes. In fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather astounded at the correlations with his work. See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is getting his conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear. 

Best,

James


On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:


Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
 

Ephraim is the most probable founder of the Y-Chromosome DNA Haplogroup P, which is one of the primary suggestions in Israelite Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time. Connecting this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups R and Q to Ephraim will of course receive much criticism from the so-called "Secular" Educational Establishment and Population Geneticists in general.

http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html 

 

 

 
 
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Dec 17 17:26:13 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:26:13 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome HaplogroupP	(R and Q)?
In-Reply-To: <121720082322.26691.494989C600028E110000684322230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <200812171958.mBHJwZbJ000310@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
	<121720082322.26691.494989C600028E110000684322230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <018901c9609e$dbff4a10$93fdde30$@com>

Thanks, is it very expensive? How much did you actually learn?

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:23 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome HaplogroupP (R and Q)?

 

Patty,

 

This is the same one Carin and I used.  It's important to use the same database so that the available information will grow and improve the data-mining efforts.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>: -------------- 

Hi Patty, 

This is the one I used, and will use for further research a it becomes available:  http://www.ysearch.org/.. http://www.familytreedna.com/Default.aspx?

Steve

At 09:31 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C96043.70C7AFE0"
Content-Language: en-us

Shalom Steve!
 
Where did you have your DNA researched?
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org> ] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 1:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P (R and Q)?
 
James, Hanoch, Patty, All, 

FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup R1b1b2. It is dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and is a minority in Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I may be related to some straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who seem to be some clan of the Scots that remained behind in Eastern Europe/ Ukraine/Osettia.

See:  <http://britam.org/now/1250Now.html> "Brit-Am Now"-1250,  Benjamin <http://britam.org/benjamin.html>  Tribe of Israel, Brit-Am Now <http://britam.org/now/now147.html>  147 , Brit-Am Now 955 <http://britam.org/now/955Now.html> ,  <http://britam.org/khazars.html> "KHAZARS". Israelite Tribes in Exile" (more on a word search for "Alans" on Yair Davidy's http://britam.org site).

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho for the Scottish connection of the SNP Mutation M269, which I have and found my closest match with some Scots living now. 

Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water, and when I left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor had any desire whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on some deep level, that I did not belong there.  Oh yes, I never went for the anti-semitic stuff either, but always felt an affinity to Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes too..... 

Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or Not will be a work of many, many volumes.....

Steve







At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:

Patty,

Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, it seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite tribes. In fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather astounded at the correlations with his work. See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is getting his conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear. 

Best,

James


On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:


Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
 

Ephraim <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephraim>  is the most probable founder of the Y-Chromosome <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroups>  DNA Haplogroup <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_%28Y-DNA%29>  P, which is one of the primary suggestions in Israelite <http://jewsandjoes.com/israelite-and-noahic-haplogroup-hypotheses.html>  Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time. Connecting this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups R <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29>  and Q <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29>  to Ephraim will of course receive much criticism from the so-called "Secular" Educational Establishment and Population Geneticists <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics>  in general.

http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html 

 

 

 
 
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Wed Dec 17 17:41:40 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:41:40 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.]
Message-ID: <49498E34.20002@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:22:43 +0000
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Wed Dec 17 17:47:18 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:47:18 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.]]
Message-ID: <49498F86.4030906@westnet.com.au>

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed Dec 17 18:28:27 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:28:27 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.
In-Reply-To: <121720082222.19446.49497BB2000D029600004BF622230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <121620082144.18950.494821410002DD4100004A0622243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><BLU125-DS272F2B32B53610CEAA6A4BAF50@phx.gbl><65FD0442ECAF4D3CB0C0E414E0B85FD1@bettylaptop>
	<121720082222.19446.49497BB2000D029600004BF622230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <3CC3A95CF571427BB2656E903838DA68@bettylaptop>

Very thorough description, Eliron.  I can see it in my mind, but am sure
being there would bring it 1,000 more times into focus!  Regarding the
archive with no books in it representing that it was left empty to show that
there were approximately 2 million names that will most probably never be
known.so very said and so very, very tragic.

 

Yet, in remembering them, we attest to the fact that they lived and died and
that HaShem knows their names, each one of them.and they are so very
precious to Him because they are His children and will never be lost to His
sight.

 

Thanks for the lovely post.  I know Carin must be so very appreciative as
well to be able to take in all this beauty and meaning.I would think that it
is giving her, as an artist, some new inspiration.

 

B'ahava,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 4:23 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.

 

At the end of the tour at Yad VaShem is the Hall of Names.

 

It is a circular room about 50 feet in diameter.  In the center is an
impressive work of art which consists of a tall conical display suspended
from the cieling which is covered on the inside with the photographs of
Holocaust victims and at the very top is a circular skylight.  Below it is a
large hole in the floor whose edge is protected by a glass wall.  Beneath
the hole is what appears to be an excavation in the stone of the hill intoa
small cave that is filled with water.  The effect is one of connection
between heaven and earth and I think it is supposed to represent the
completeness of G-d's creation.

 

Around the edge of the circular floor of the hall is another glass wall on
the other side of which is an open space (down to about the level of the
pool) about 10 feet across.  On the other side of the space is the archive
of the names of those who died in Holocaust.  A wall of books from floor to
ceiling encircling the entire hall except for the entryway.

 

Just about the time that I noticed that there there was a whole section of
the archive without any books in it, I heard a guide for one of the other
tour groups explaining in English that while it is a well established fact
that six million Jews died in that tragedy, only four million names have
been identified.  

 

The empty space is for the other two million names that will  most probably
never be known.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" <bkgivin at charter.net>:
-------------- 




Hey Eliron,

 

It seems that since you are in the Land that your Hebrew name would be
appropriate here, especially after what you witnessed this day with your
visit to Yad VaShem.  I came away with a similar feeling.no words to
describe after visiting the Holocaust Memorial Museum here in Dallas a
number of years ago, and I am sure that Yad VaShem was even more soul
retching.

 

I just don't think we can ever, ever imagine the horrific things that were
done to so many innocent people who suffered beyond words.and why?   Because
they were Jews.like the Jews in Mumbai.they were tortured and they died
simply because they were Jews.  Baseless hatred can never be understood
except by those who possess it and blindly choose to carry it out!

 

I was astounded by the figure that was recently quoted on another list.2
million of the Jewish victims that died still remain NAMELESS!   As the
number of living Holocaust survivors dwindles, we have an even stronger
responsibility to keep their memories alive and to do all that we can to see
that this never, never happens again.

 

I can see how a visit to Yad VaShem changes ones perspective on the
world.how very sobering.

 

Indeed we must never forget.we must charge ourselves and one another to
always remember!

 

Elisheva

 

 


  _____  


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:58 PM
To: Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.

 

Amen, John. Yad Vashem changes ones perspective on the world.

 

Pat  

 

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:44 PM

To: Dialogue <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>  

Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.

 

Hey folks,

 

Short update today.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

<HR 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 17 19:59:33 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:59:33 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT PRAYER FOR DEAR RUDY IN ICU!
In-Reply-To: <73899EBEB8CC490F930637E8B1DF8ECC@bettylaptop>
References: <73899EBEB8CC490F930637E8B1DF8ECC@bettylaptop>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS2C1B36E5E9FC90B1D80FEBAF30@phx.gbl>

Thank you, Precious One, for passing this word around the world.  Our prayers seem to have availed much!!!!!  Will be offline for perhaps several days - unless I borrow a computer somewhere.  My love and appreciation to you.  ~ Pat


From: Betty Givin 
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:27 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT PRAYER FOR DEAR RUDY IN ICU!


Pat Robbins just called to say that Linda had called her.  Rudy is in ICU.  His procedure went okay, but afterwards he had difficulty breathing, so they had to put him in ICU. He is also having other problems; the fluids they had to give him overtaxed his kidneys.  Linda's daughter is having a very difficult time and is calling all the children to come to the hospital.

 

Linda has asked all of us to pray fervently!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

 

 

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Dec 17 16:59:46 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:59:46 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Historical Nazareth
In-Reply-To: <179940.45832.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <4948574B.8020101@westnet.com.au>
	<179940.45832.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <016401c9609b$2a783c50$7f68b4f0$@com>

"And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled
with wrath, and rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto
the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him
down headlong." Luke 4:28, 29 

In many of my discussions I have come across the occasional "scholar" who
insists that there was never a historical town of Nazareth (mentioned in the
Gospels as a place where Yeshua and his family lived) citing as their main
"proof" the mention of a hill large enough to seriously harm someone if they
were to be thrown off. Driving through modern-day Nazareth last June with
our good friend James Tabor, we had the opportunity to see for ourselves -
and indeed there was a very large hill: 

http://api.ning.com/files/6MBjdJuo0*W8E5B8*z65kWuvgOAe-0CBO-lk9vg9RrjlZ3ag0m
QD5yDY2ywarEsBhaMqD19887g4aDoFaPbgq7QmrST7C8j4/100_0873.JPG

 

http://api.ning.com/files/6MBjdJuo0*XnDQN7r8zD2mAhJMyekQghQ-TdQf43NubaZvc59k
mOo63Sxuh3p9EshyGmP2OJHEG3QagNwo3d8bO1cgBQiLuo/100_0877.JPG

 

http://api.ning.com/files/6MBjdJuo0*VHo4E1wDNiPy9OflAYtD4VWQrqKwAfB06vjFEvac
M9KSL0Vs2jQ31k7O2ZMFiv4clCfu5StI61K-HUtvx7y2eq/100_0878.JPG

 

That's gonna leave a mark!!

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed Dec 17 17:10:07 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:10:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Historical Nazareth
References: <4948574B.8020101@westnet.com.au>
	<179940.45832.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> 
Message-ID: <016f01c9609c$9c1d7270$d4585750$@com>

"And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled
with wrath, and rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto
the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him
down headlong." Luke 4:28, 29 

In many of my discussions I have come across the occasional "scholar" who
insists that there was never a historical town of Nazareth (mentioned in the
Gospels as a place where Yeshua and his family lived) citing as their main
"proof" the mention of a hill large enough to seriously harm someone if they
were to be thrown off. Driving through modern-day Nazareth last June with
our good friend James Tabor, we had the opportunity to see for ourselves -
and indeed there was a very large hill, see photos attached.

Patty

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec 18 02:20:10 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:20:10 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.]]
In-Reply-To: <49498F86.4030906@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <121820080820.16407.494A07BA0007DCAB0000401722218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Shalom Joe,

I will pass it on.

My converstional Ivrit is improving but both Carin and I have much work to do.

No need to envy, you will be here soon as well, but you're welcome.

Brachot.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>: -------------- 

Shlichah John,

please pass on my best wishes and love to Carin and Patty.

Thoughtless of me.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec 18 02:29:43 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:29:43 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Update.]
In-Reply-To: <49498E34.20002@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <121820080829.21823.494A09F7000BE8C30000553F22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Or rather Bevakasha I should say.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>: -------------- 

Shalom John,

todah rabbah for keeping us informed of your visit to Eretz h'Chodesh. I am green from envy.
I am also sure that Carin must equally be inspired especially seeing the original Mark Chagall stain glass masterpieces portraying the sh'vatim of Yisrael.

I hope your Ivrit is improving.

Thank you also for the stunning photographs and the updates. They are very much appreciated.

Shalom v'Brachot
JOE.
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec 18 02:38:02 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:38:02 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome HaplogroupP	(R and Q)?
In-Reply-To: <018901c9609e$dbff4a10$93fdde30$@com>
References: <200812171958.mBHJwZbJ000310@mail383c25.carrierzone.com><121720082322.26691.494989C600028E110000684322230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<018901c9609e$dbff4a10$93fdde30$@com>
Message-ID: <121820080838.27198.494A0BE90003FCB900006A3E22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Not terribly expensive.  I think it was about $180 for each of us.  But for a woman it is best to get a close male relative to send the sample because a woman does not carry her fathers y-chromosome gene.

How much you learn depends very much on your genetic makeup and how much detail folks that match you have provided to the database.  We can tlak more about it next week.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 


Thanks, is it very expensive? How much did you actually learn?
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:23 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome HaplogroupP (R and Q)?
 
Patty,
 
This is the same one Carin and I used.  It's important to use the same database so that the available information will grow and improve the data-mining efforts.
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
-------------- Original message from Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>: -------------- 

Hi Patty, 

This is the one I used, and will use for further research a it becomes available:  http://www.ysearch.org/.. http://www.familytreedna.com/Default.aspx?

Steve

At 09:31 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote:


Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C96043.70C7AFE0"
Content-Language: en-us

Shalom Steve!
 
Where did you have your DNA researched?
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 1:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P (R and Q)?
 
James, Hanoch, Patty, All, 

FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup R1b1b2. It is dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and is a minority in Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I may be related to some straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who seem to be some clan of the Scots that remained behind in Eastern Europe/ Ukraine/Osettia.

See: "Brit-Am Now"-1250,  Benjamin Tribe of Israel, Brit-Am Now 147 , Brit-Am Now 955, "KHAZARS". Israelite Tribes in Exile" (more on a word search for "Alans" on Yair Davidy's http://britam.org site).

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho for the Scottish connection of the SNP Mutation M269, which I have and found my closest match with some Scots living now. 

Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water, and when I left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor had any desire whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on some deep level, that I did not belong there.  Oh yes, I never went for the anti-semitic stuff either, but always felt an affinity to Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes too..... 

Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or Not will be a work of many, many volumes.....

Steve







At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:

Patty,

Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, it seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite tribes. In fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather astounded at the correlations with his work. See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is getting his conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear. 

Best,

James


On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:


Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
 

Ephraim is the most probable founder of the Y-Chromosome DNA Haplogroup P, which is one of the primary suggestions in Israelite Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time. Connecting this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups R and Q to Ephraim will of course receive much criticism from the so-called "Secular" Educational Establishment and Population Geneticists in general.

http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html 

 

 

 
 
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Dec 18 10:48:34 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:48:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Check Out the House of Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <121820080838.27198.494A0BE90003FCB900006A3E22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <200812171958.mBHJwZbJ000310@mail383c25.carrierzone.com><121720082322.26691.494989C600028E110000684322230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<018901c9609e$dbff4a10$93fdde30$@com>
	<121820080838.27198.494A0BE90003FCB900006A3E22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <027601c96130$795fb650$6c1f22f0$@com>

Shalom All!

 

Maybe before Israel is united in the Land, we should unite here.  Has anyone thought about inviting some of these other ? tribe? groups to the UIWU meeting?

 

www.thehouseofephraim.com

 

 

Patty

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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu Dec 18 10:54:30 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:54:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim (cont.)
In-Reply-To: <021301c95f2b$34b6afb0$9e240f10$@com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>	<01a701c95eb4$4ea68570$ebf39050$@com>	<BLU125-DS5A319A77AAC00558F9131BAF40@phx.gbl>
	<021301c95f2b$34b6afb0$9e240f10$@com>
Message-ID: <028101c96131$4d4c5630$e7e50290$@com>

Hi All,

 

I have found that others say the standard for Ephraim is a bull or unicorn:

 


http://www.british-israel.ca/Uni_Ramp.gif

http://www.british-israel.ca/BullPass2.gif

 Ephraim 

A bull, horn or Unicorn are his Emblems.

Remember this Abrahamic Covenant: His seed is to become a Company of
Nations.
Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches
run over the wall:
The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by
the hands of the mighty God of Jacob.
And for the precious things of the earth and fullness thereof, and for the
good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head
of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his
brethren and Moses said: His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and
his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people
together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of
Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Patty

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu Dec 18 11:11:00 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:11:00 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Check Out the House of Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <027601c96130$795fb650$6c1f22f0$@com>
References: <200812171958.mBHJwZbJ000310@mail383c25.carrierzone.com><121720082322.26691.494989C600028E110000684322230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<018901c9609e$dbff4a10$93fdde30$@com><121820080838.27198.494A0BE90003FCB900006A3E22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<027601c96130$795fb650$6c1f22f0$@com>
Message-ID: <D280AB9CAE3D446AACA3559F871F3616@bettylaptop>

Shalom, Patty.this website has some beautiful photos of the Land of Ephraim!
I just briefly perused the website.  . It appears as if they certainly love
the land which is good, and I want to be fair and certainly not exclude
anyone but it doesn't look as if this particular group has the same focus as
UIWU, which is allegiance to the One G-d of Israel and His Torah.  And the
fact that they have a leader which they address as "Prophet" did not strike
a good chord with me.  

Don't mean to be too picky, just trying to express my honest feelings and
opinion. Thanks for sharing as always, Patty. Gotta run.with a million and
one things to do today!

 

Love & Blessings to you and all,

      Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:49 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Check Out the House of Ephraim

 

Shalom All!

 

Maybe before Israel is united in the Land, we should unite here.  Has anyone
thought about inviting some of these other " tribe" groups to the UIWU
meeting?

 

www.thehouseofephraim.com

 

 

Patty

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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 18 11:12:58 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:12:58 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Check Out the House of Ephraim
In-Reply-To: <027601c96130$795fb650$6c1f22f0$@com>
References: <200812171958.mBHJwZbJ000310@mail383c25.carrierzone.com><121720082322.26691.494989C600028E110000684322230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<018901c9609e$dbff4a10$93fdde30$@com>
	<121820080838.27198.494A0BE90003FCB900006A3E22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<027601c96130$795fb650$6c1f22f0$@com>
Message-ID: <86E87552-C86A-4352-9265-D895B788C2C6@earthlink.net>

Dear Patty,

I am open to anyone coming who would fit in with us okay and our  
meetings are open and public. Further, I would never want to dampen  
any of your enthusiasm. That said, I am surprised to hear you are  
finding many groups like UIWU as I do not know of a single one. I do,  
on the other hand, know of many so-called "messianic" groups who talk  
about Ephraim and the Lost Tribes and John Hulley is in touch with  
many of these folks, as is now Hanoch with his recent speaking at the  
convention he has reported on. I did take a look at the link you  
noted, but after reading about "Prophet Deckart" was not at all sure  
we would fit so well with this group, or them with us...Who else have  
you found?

Best,

James

On Dec 18, 2008, at 11:48 AM, Patty wrote:

> Shalom All!
>
> Maybe before Israel is united in the Land, we should unite here.   
> Has anyone thought about inviting some of these other ? tribe?  
> groups to the UIWU meeting?
>
> www.thehouseofephraim.com
>
>
> Patty
> _______________________________________________

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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec 18 14:46:13 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:46:13 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim (cont.)
In-Reply-To: <028101c96131$4d4c5630$e7e50290$@com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>	<01a701c95eb4$4ea68570$ebf39050$@com>	<BLU125-DS5A319A77AAC00558F9131BAF40@phx.gbl><021301c95f2b$34b6afb0$9e240f10$@com>
	<028101c96131$4d4c5630$e7e50290$@com>
Message-ID: <121820082046.14710.494AB69500064CE40000397622230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

I like the bull.  I don't believe in Unicorns (I'll have to look that up in Hebrew).

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 


Hi All,
 
I have found that others say the standard for Ephraim is a bull or unicorn:
 

 Ephraim 
A bull, horn or Unicorn are his Emblems.
Remember this Abrahamic Covenant: His seed is to become a Company of Nations.
Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob.
And for the precious things of the earth and fullness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren and Moses said: His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

 
Any thoughts?
 
Patty
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec 18 14:55:25 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:55:25 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim (cont.)
In-Reply-To: <028101c96131$4d4c5630$e7e50290$@com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au>	<855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com>	<010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com>	<011c01c95e56$49ec4870$ddc4d950$@com><200812150717.mBF7HHj8026208@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>	<01a701c95eb4$4ea68570$ebf39050$@com>	<BLU125-DS5A319A77AAC00558F9131BAF40@phx.gbl><021301c95f2b$34b6afb0$9e240f10$@com>
	<028101c96131$4d4c5630$e7e50290$@com>
Message-ID: <121820082055.14225.494AB8BC0007B9800000379122230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

I looked up the word that is translated as Unicorn in the KJV, it is Re'em which is also a type of bullock.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 


Hi All,
 
I have found that others say the standard for Ephraim is a bull or unicorn:
 

 Ephraim 
A bull, horn or Unicorn are his Emblems.
Remember this Abrahamic Covenant: His seed is to become a Company of Nations.
Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob.
And for the precious things of the earth and fullness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren and Moses said: His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

 
Any thoughts?
 
Patty
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec 18 15:06:56 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:06:56 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P(R and Q)?
In-Reply-To: <200812171727.mBHHRmDO027134@mail382c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au><855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com><010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com><45718436-C37B-4B3C-BE64-32C3C5B65595@earthlink.net><200812150618.mBF6I3aM031548@mail383c25.carrierzone.com><889356AA-0B3A-4E27-957B-6D603A424BC3@earthlink.net>
	<200812171727.mBHHRmDO027134@mail382c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <121820082106.24708.494ABB6F000A9D470000608422230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Carin and I are both in the same haplogroup.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>: -------------- 

James, 

Yes, it could be that the dates assigned to some these migrations are more recent.  The frozen mummies found in Urumchi seem to be blond European types  wearing tartans. Though some may have intermarried with the locals, they still make us wonder how they could be related to Israelitish peoples of today and of more recent history than it is assumed by historians at the present. 

Steve


At 04:50 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote:

I think this is truly quite amazing Steve. I have yet to do mine but it might come out the same in that my father had a tradition that the Tabors came form "Bohemia," even though I have traced his line back to England in the 1500s. I still don't know what to make of the chronology the DNA scientist put on these migratiions. My hunch is that they are more recent than normally acknowledged, and they would, of course, have to be if they involve migrations as recently as 2500 years ago.

Take care,

James


On Dec 15, 2008, at 1:18 AM, Steve Mathe wrote:


James, Hanoch, Patty, All, 

FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup R1b1b2. It is dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and is a minority in Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I may be related to some straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who seem to be some clan of the Scots that remained behind in Eastern Europe/ Ukraine/Osettia.

See: "Brit-Am Now"-1250,  Benjamin Tribe of Israel, Brit-Am Now 147 , Brit-Am Now 955, "KHAZARS". Israelite Tribes in Exile" (more on a word search for "Alans" on Yair Davidy's http://britam.org site).

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho for the Scottish connection of the SNP Mutation M269, which I have and found my closest match with some Scots living now. 

Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water, and when I left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor had any desire whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on some deep level, that I did not belong there.  Oh yes, I never went for the anti-semitic stuff either, but always felt an affinity to Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes too..... 

Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or Not will be a work of many, many volumes.....

Steve







At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:

Patty,

Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, it seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite tribes. In fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather astounded at the correlations with his work. See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is getting his conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear. 

Best,

James


On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:


Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
 

Ephraim is the most probable founder of the Y-Chromosome DNA Haplogroup P, which is one of the primary suggestions in Israelite Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time. Connecting this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups R and Q to Ephraim will of course receive much criticism from the so-called "Secular" Educational Establishment and Population Geneticists in general.

http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html 

 

 

 
 
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec 18 15:07:56 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:07:56 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Ephraim: Founder of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup P(R and Q)?
In-Reply-To: <200812171727.mBHHRmDO027134@mail382c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <49457DA4.6050701@westnet.com.au><855590370812141635q288e8635rf570a821cf474492@mail.gmail.com><010e01c95e52$bbe86a70$33b93f50$@com><45718436-C37B-4B3C-BE64-32C3C5B65595@earthlink.net><200812150618.mBF6I3aM031548@mail383c25.carrierzone.com><889356AA-0B3A-4E27-957B-6D603A424BC3@earthlink.net>
	<200812171727.mBHHRmDO027134@mail382c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <121820082107.27739.494ABBAB000C826600006C5B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

R1b1b2

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>: -------------- 

James, 

Yes, it could be that the dates assigned to some these migrations are more recent.  The frozen mummies found in Urumchi seem to be blond European types  wearing tartans. Though some may have intermarried with the locals, they still make us wonder how they could be related to Israelitish peoples of today and of more recent history than it is assumed by historians at the present. 

Steve


At 04:50 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote:

I think this is truly quite amazing Steve. I have yet to do mine but it might come out the same in that my father had a tradition that the Tabors came form "Bohemia," even though I have traced his line back to England in the 1500s. I still don't know what to make of the chronology the DNA scientist put on these migratiions. My hunch is that they are more recent than normally acknowledged, and they would, of course, have to be if they involve migrations as recently as 2500 years ago.

Take care,

James


On Dec 15, 2008, at 1:18 AM, Steve Mathe wrote:


James, Hanoch, Patty, All, 

FYI, I have had my DNA researched and found myself to be Haplogroup R1b1b2. It is dominant in the British Isles, much of NW Europe, and is a minority in Eastern Europe, where I was born.  Who knows, I may be related to some straggler Tribers, perhaps the Alans, who seem to be some clan of the Scots that remained behind in Eastern Europe/ Ukraine/Osettia.

See: "Brit-Am Now"-1250,  Benjamin Tribe of Israel, Brit-Am Now 147 , Brit-Am Now 955, "KHAZARS". Israelite Tribes in Exile" (more on a word search for "Alans" on Yair Davidy's http://britam.org site).

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McWho for the Scottish connection of the SNP Mutation M269, which I have and found my closest match with some Scots living now. 

Of course I took to the Ten Tribes idea like fish takes to water, and when I left Hungary at age 11, I never looked back since, nor had any desire whatsoever to connect to them.   I "knew" on some deep level, that I did not belong there.  Oh yes, I never went for the anti-semitic stuff either, but always felt an affinity to Jews.   Hanoch, I always did like bagpipes too..... 

Yes truth is stranger than fiction, and I think Ripley's Believe or Not will be a work of many, many volumes.....

Steve







At 06:10 PM 12/14/2008, you wrote:

Patty,

Based on what Hulley has shown in terms of the historical records, it seems to me that the Haplogroup R1b best fits the Ephramite tribes. In fact, it fits his work so closely I find myself rather astounded at the correlations with his work. See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

I am not sure where Hanok, who does the jewsandjoes site, is getting his conclusions about P, though I would be interested to hear. 

Best,

James


On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Patty wrote:


Genesis 48:19, "Ephraim" to be "the fullness of the nations"...
 

Ephraim is the most probable founder of the Y-Chromosome DNA Haplogroup P, which is one of the primary suggestions in Israelite Haplogroup (DNA) Hypotheses. Ephraim's direct male descendants and female descendants may be found in other mt-DNA and y-DNA haplogroups, but P seems to be the most apparent at this time. Connecting this haplogroup and its sub-haplogroups R and Q to Ephraim will of course receive much criticism from the so-called "Secular" Educational Establishment and Population Geneticists in general.

http://jewsandjoes.com/ephraim-founder-of-y-chromosome-haplogroup-p-r-q.html 

 

 

 
 
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Thu Dec 18 17:11:35 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:11:35 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Please Remember Gush Katif....
In-Reply-To: <c6a.37b1ea69.35c6771e@aol.com>
References: <c6a.37b1ea69.35c6771e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <494AD8A7.4080407@gninc.ca>

I was checking and deleting old e-mails when I found this one. If you 
feel life is a bit rough, you may want to check out this one. Thank you 
Hanoch for all you are sharing

Cornie



YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote:
> Click here: YouTube - Gush Katif Video 
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm11qDwSVlk>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read 
> reviews on AOL Autos 
> <http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 17:48:15 2008
From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:48:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim (cont.)
In-Reply-To: <028101c96131$4d4c5630$e7e50290$@com>
Message-ID: <432466.5185.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Patty,
You will see that my banner has most of the prophecy. I don't have a unicorn, but I do have a well and the borders are ivy growing on a wall. I have the bow and the bull. In the center of the fruit is a well. 

Betty Eddy
  
      
   

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] A New Standard for Ephraim (cont.)
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 10:54 AM




 
 







Hi All, 

 ? 

I have found that others say the standard for Ephraim is a bull
or unicorn: 

 ? 




 
  
   
   
  
  
  ?Ephraim  
  A
  bull, horn or Unicorn are his Emblems. 
  Remember
  this Abrahamic Covenant: His seed is to become a Company of Nations.

  Joseph
  is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over
  the wall:

  The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:

  But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by
  the hands of the mighty God of Jacob.

  And for the precious things of the earth and fullness thereof, and for the
  good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head
  of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his
  brethren and Moses said: His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the
  people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of
  Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh. 
  
 




 ? 

Any thoughts? 

 ? 

Patty 



 

_______________________________________________



      
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Fri Dec 19 05:15:40 2008
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 06:15:40 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Sderot Attack
Message-ID: <00e401c961cb$21d01470$0400a8c0@marvin>

Arutz Sheva reported another attack in Sderot.   Senseless waste!

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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Fri Dec 19 06:26:52 2008
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 07:26:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Channukah Articles
Message-ID: <010801c961d5$13f966d0$0400a8c0@marvin>

The Jewish Times at Mesora.Org has several good articles on Channukah.

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 07:26:02 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 05:26:02 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Shma Yisrael..
Message-ID: <855590370812190526j45d9456fxed0ad20f5832bd97@mail.gmail.com>

This is a gorgeous song, sung by Sarit Haddad.  The images are very moving,
and there are English subtitles.  May it touch your heart, this Erev
Shabbat....

Click here: YouTube - Shma
Yisrael<http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qzwB4_P5ak4&feature=related>

 Shabbat Shalom,

     * Hanoch*
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 07:45:46 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 05:45:46 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Only in the Bronx...
Message-ID: <855590370812190545u17af9bdblaefeadc356a1ee1d@mail.gmail.com>

An intriguing human interest story with a fascinating 'twist...' only in the
Bronx....

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2008/02/07/nyregion/1194817091947/a-bronx-school-revives.html

         *   Hanoch
*
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From webhulon at msn.com  Fri Dec 19 09:39:26 2008
From: webhulon at msn.com (Ronnie Hulon)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:39:26 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Chanukah party in South Carolina
In-Reply-To: <855590370812190545u17af9bdblaefeadc356a1ee1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812190545u17af9bdblaefeadc356a1ee1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W523A18079094D1ECC85BA7C5F00@phx.gbl>


Shalom all,
 
This is my first posting, although I have been on the forum for a couple of months. The discussion here is wonderful.  I really appreciate the way that everything centers around Yisrael.  I also appreciate the way people have different takes on things yet do not belittle one another, as is all too common in many internet based groups.
 
If anyone is interested, we are having a Chanukah party on 12/28 at our community in Lexington, SC.  
 
We are a small Ephramite community, all living on attached land, and the party will be in our meeting place.
 
There will food and music and fan and, of course, candle lighting.  if you are interested please contact me at webhulon at msn.com for time and directions. 
 
All blessings,
Web Hulon & Kehilat Beth Lechem
_________________________________________________________________
It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Fri Dec 19 10:06:30 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:06:30 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Shma Yisrael..
In-Reply-To: <855590370812190526j45d9456fxed0ad20f5832bd97@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812190526j45d9456fxed0ad20f5832bd97@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <494BC686.5090709@gninc.ca>

How beautiful Hanoch, I am proud of your people, I wish I could be one 
of them, that I could grab the tzitzit - tzitzit of a Jew, and Baruch 
Hashem I am grabbing it. Please keep on teaching us the way of Hashem.

Cornie


Hanoch Young wrote:
> This is a gorgeous song, sung by Sarit Haddad.  The images are very 
> moving, and there are English subtitles.  May it touch your heart, 
> this Erev Shabbat....
>  
> Click here: YouTube - Shma Yisrael 
> <http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qzwB4_P5ak4&feature=related>
>  
> Shabbat Shalom,
>  
>      */ Hanoch/*
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Fri Dec 19 10:17:21 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:17:21 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Only in the Bronx...
In-Reply-To: <855590370812190545u17af9bdblaefeadc356a1ee1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812190545u17af9bdblaefeadc356a1ee1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <494BC911.5050709@gninc.ca>

That's right Hanoch!!!!! Great to watch!!!!

Cornie



Hanoch Young wrote:
> An intriguing human interest story with a fascinating 'twist...' only 
> in the Bronx....
>  http://video.nytimes.com/video/2008/02/07/nyregion/1194817091947/a-bronx-school-revives.html
>  
>          */   Hanoch
> /*
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Sat Dec 20 20:56:33 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 21:56:33 EST
Subject: [Dialogue] Chanukah party in South Carolina
Message-ID: <cc7.47d6c4e0.367f0a61@aol.com>

Dear Web,
 
I wish I could join you. This sounds great.  I hope that you can post  some 
pictures of the event on your page on the network. Perhaps you could tell  us 
more about Kehilat Beth Lechem. 
 
Shalom, Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 


**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, 
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)
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From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat Dec 20 23:09:54 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 05:09:54 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Last Jerusalem Update
Message-ID: <122120080509.22617.494DCFA100062AB60000585922230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Last one for now.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 23:51:53 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 21:51:53 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] A really cute singing menorah
Message-ID: <855590370812202151h926fa2clf862b431f2aa6e66@mail.gmail.com>

Hanukah Sameach!!
       *   Hanoch*
**
 The cutest, funniest menorah ever!
Click on the picture, then click the candles and make them sing.
Click the Shamash (Red center candle) and he will turn them all on or off.
[image: http://www.lhnet.co.il/modules/Hanuka/index.htm]<http://www.lhnet.co.il/modules/Hanuka/index.htm>

http://www.lhnet.co.il/modules/Hanuka/index.htm
or
http://www.onejerusalem.com/2007/12/07/happy-hanukkah-with-singing-menorah/
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Sat Dec 20 23:52:23 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:52:23 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Tears of a Princess  HaShem hears the prayers of women!
Message-ID: <755C0B42D1D94F6B948B6722D6E3C83E@bettylaptop>

Friends, this is a most beautiful video and song.most moving.about how
HaShem hears the prayers of women because we are  "bat melech" , daughters
of the King! It is in Hebrew and has both the Hebrew and English script that
goes with the music.it will even have some of the guys crying.especially
you, Hanoch.but that is not a bad thing.as it is so meaningful.

 

Just breathe the words into you heart, mind and soul and you will be
blessing!  Please listen.there is another very tender and moving song as
well that follows.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3917978239754572336
<http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3917978239754572336&hl=en> &hl=en 

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 00:05:10 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:05:10 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] An AMAZING mix...Led Zeppelin/Ofra Haza 'Kashmir'
Message-ID: <855590370812202205t6daf4127weab6c76ead3ead57@mail.gmail.com>

For someone like me who grew up on Led Zeppelin, and later, having adored
Ofra Haza (Of Blessed Memory), this version is a little bit of heaven on
Earth for me...
             *  Hanoch*
Click here: YouTube - Led Zeppelin vs Ofra Haza - Kashmir Mix ?? ????? ?????
??? - ????? ???? <http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=pASR_UYzaTM&feature=related>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 00:40:43 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:40:43 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] From Rav Lazer Brody...just read & watch
Message-ID: <855590370812202240h6834d495re178a1188bc3c28@mail.gmail.com>

Something Ephraim can start on now, too...               *   Hanoch*
Sunday, 21 December 2008 Shma
Yisrael<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/12/shma-yisrael.html>

We here at Emuna
Outreach<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/meet_emuna_outreach.html>and
the Beams want to pave the road for Moshiach, so that he'll get here a
little faster. We're sure that you want to help. It's a tremendous mitzva
and it won't cost you a cent. So what do we do?

Both Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef and the Melitzer Rebbe, may Hashem bless them
both, told me that if a million more Jewish children knew how to say "Shma
Yisrael," Moshiach would come. Together, we can do it.

Email your not-yet-observant friends and family, and promise them limitless
blessings for their children by just saying one sentence before bedtime:

Shma Yisrael, Adonoi Elohenu, Adonoi Echad

Hear O Israel, The Lord is our God, The Lord is One!

The more ambitious can find the entire Shma in Hebrew, English and
transliteration here <http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/shema.htm>.

Here is a moving filmclip that shows how the Shma prayer alone can protect a
Jewish soul:

Emuna Outreach needs your help in this project. This very moment, you can
become a full activist in Jewish Outreach by helping us to spread the word.
You can't imagine the blessing you'll be invoking on yourself and on your
family for every child you tell about "Shma Yisrael". Make it clear to the
parents that you're not out to change their lifestyle or anything else, just
to teach them and their children the catch phrase that is the secret of
Jewish survival since the beginning of time. All you have to do is send your
friends a link to this post (click on "permalink" at the bottom of this post
for the link), and you're already part of our team.  We welcome you!

Sunday, 21 December 2008 at 12:08 AM in Concepts in Judaism
<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/concepts_in_judaism/>, Geula and
redemption <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/geula_and_redemption/>,
Outreach <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/outreach/> |
Permalink<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/12/shma-yisrael.html>
| TrackBack (0)<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/12/shma-yisrael.html#trackback>
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From shdennis at rogers.com  Sun Dec 21 12:00:49 2008
From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:00:49 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] sunday shul
Message-ID: <E7EAC5B0981943939B99CDD550812A95@Beeblebrox>

Ross,

I have been meaning to thank you for the teaching you gave last week regarding keeping the commandments of YHVH.   It will be a great resource for us to pass on to others who are beginning to ask questions and are seeking some guidance.

As always, we are looking forward to tonight's little event.  I remember the first time I read the words of Matthias Maccabee  -  so inspiring and so pertinent for us today, their testimony can sure fire one up with zeal!

Shalom to all who seek the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,
Sharon
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 21 12:03:04 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:03:04 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Meeting in 2009
Message-ID: <557A54E5-37A4-4E26-A778-9FE1BB758EC5@earthlink.net>

I wanted to announce the dates for our 2009 United Israel annual  
meeting here in Charlotte: April 24-26.

We will distribute the details of our plans and program early in the  
new year but hold the dates and make your plans to join us. We have  
some really special things in mind.

James






From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 12:53:32 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:53:32 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] "Jews get killed, but Muslims feel vulnerable"
Message-ID: <855590370812211053o30e2c768v5ca4786f8c19cef4@mail.gmail.com>

An interesting, thought provoking article.  One of those that I wished I had
written, first!  Hanukah Sameach!

                *    Hanoch*
**
 Jews get killed, but Muslims feel vulnerable

By Mark Steyn




  *Shortly after the London Tube bombings in 2005, a reader of Tim Blair,
The Sydney Daily Telegraph's columnist wag, sent him a note-perfect parody
of a typical newspaper headline:

"British Muslims Fear Repercussions Over Tomorrow's Train Bombing."

Indeed. And so it goes. This time round ? Mumbai ? it was the Associated
Press that filed a story about how Muslims "found themselves on the
defensive once again about bloodshed linked to their religion".

Oh, I don't know about that. In fact, you'd be hard pressed from most news
reports to figure out the bloodshed was "linked" to any religion, least of
all one beginning with "I-" and ending in "-slam." In the three years since
those British bombings, the media have more or less entirely abandoned the
offending formulations ? "Islamic terrorists," "Muslim extremists" ? and by
the time of the assault on Mumbai found it easier just to call the alleged
perpetrators "militants" or "gunmen" or "teenage gunmen," as in the opening
line of this report in The Australian: "An Adelaide woman in India for her
wedding is lucky to be alive after teenage gunmen ran amok."

Kids today, eh? Always running amok in an aimless fashion.

The veteran British TV anchor Jon Snow, on the other hand, opted for the
more cryptic locution "practitioners." "Practitioners" of what, exactly?

Hard to say. And getting harder. For the Wall Street Journal, Tom Gross
produced a jaw-dropping round-up of Mumbai media coverage: The discovery
that, for the first time in an Indian terrorist atrocity, Jews had been
attacked, tortured and killed produced from the New York Times a serene
befuddlement: "It is not known if the Jewis h center was strategically
chosen, or if it was an accidental hostage scene."

Hmm. Greater Mumbai forms one of the world's five biggest cities. It has a
population of nearly 20 million. But only one Jewish center, located in a
building that gives no external clue as to the bounty waiting therein. An
"accidental hostage scene" that one of the "practitioners" just happened to
stumble upon? "I must be the luckiest jihadist in town. What are the odds?"

Meanwhile, the New Age guru Deepak Chopra laid all the blame on American
foreign policy for "going after the wrong people" and inflaming moderates,
and "that inflammation then gets organized and appears as this disaster" in
Mumbai.

Really? The inflammation just "appears"? Like a bad pimple? The "fairer" we
get to the, ah, inflamed militant practitioners, the unfairer we get to
everyone else.

The murdered Jews were described in almost all the Western media as
"ultra-Orthodox," "ultra-" in this instance being less a term of theological
precision than a generalized code for "strange, weird people, nothing
against them personally, but they probably shouldn't have been over there in
the first place."

Are they stranger or weirder than their killers? Two "inflamed moderates"
entered, shouted "Allahu Akba r!," tortured the Jews and murdered them,
including the young rabbi's pregnant wife. Their 2-year-old child escaped
because of a quick-witted (non-Jewish) nanny who hid in a closet and then,
risking being mowed down by machine-gun fire, ran with him to safety.

The Times was being silly in suggesting this was just an "accidental"
hostage opportunity ? and not just because, when Muslim terrorists capture
Jews, it's not a hostage situation, it's a mass murder-in-waiting. The sole
surviving "militant" revealed that the Jewish center had been targeted a
year in advance. The 28-year-old rabbi was Gavriel Holtzberg. His pregnant
wife was Rivka Holtzberg. Their orphaned son is Moshe Holtzberg, and his
brave nanny is Sandra Samuels. Remember their names, not because they're any
more important than the Indians, Britons and Americans targeted in the
attack, but because they are an especially revealing glimpse into the
pathologies of the perpetrators.

In a well-planned attack on iconic Mumbai landmarks symbolizing great power
and wealth, the "militants" nevertheless found time to divert 20 percent of
their manpower to torturing and killing a handful of obscure Jews helping
the city's poor in a nondescript building. If they were just "teenage
gunmen" or "militants" in the cause of Kashmir, engaged in a more or less
conventional territorial dispute with India, why kill the only rabbi in
Mumbai?

And yet we take it for granted that Pakistani "militants" in a long-running
border dispute with India would take time out of their hectic schedule to
kill Jews. In going to ever more baroque lengths to avoid saying "Islamic"
or "Muslim" or "terrorist," we have somehow managed to internalize the
pathologies of these men.

We are enjoined to be "understanding," and we're doing our best. A
Minnesotan suicide bomber (now there's a phrase) originally from Somalia
returned to the old country and blew up himself and 29 other people last
October. His family prevailed upon your government to have his parts (or as
many of them as could be sifted from the debris) returned to the United
States at taxpayer expense and buried in Burnsville Cemetery . Well, hey, in
the current climate, what's the big deal about a federal bailout of jihad
operational expenses? If that's not "too big to fail," what is?

Last week, a Canadian critic reprimanded me for failing to understand that
Muslims feel "vulnerable." Au contraire, they project tremendous cultural
confidence, as well they might: They're the world's fastest-growing
population. A prominent British Muslim announced the other day that, when
the United Kingdom becomes a Muslim state, non-Muslims will be required to
wear insignia identifying them as infidels. If he's feeling "vulnerable,"
he's doing a terrific job of covering it up.

We are told that the "vast majority" of the 1.6 billion to 1.8 billion
Muslims (in Deepak Chopra's estimate) are "moderate." Maybe so, but they're
also quiet. And, as the AIDS activists used to say, "Silence=Acceptance." It
equals acceptance of the things done in the name of their faith. Rabbi
Holtzberg was not murdered because of a territorial dispute over Kashmir or
because of Bush's foreign policy. He was murdered in the name of Islam
? "Allahu
Akbar."

I wrote in my book, "America Alone," that "reforming" Islam is something
only Muslims can do. But they show very little sign of being interested in
doing it, and the rest of us are inclined to accept that. Spread a rumor
that a Quran got flushed down the can at Gitmo, and there'll be rioting
throughout the Muslim world. Publish some dull cartoons in a minor Danish
newspaper, and there'll be protests around the planet. But slaughter the
young pregnant wife of a rabbi in Mumbai in the name of Allah, and that's
just business as usual. And, if it is somehow "understandable" that for the
first time in history it's no longer safe for a Jew to live in India , then
we are greasing the skids for a very slippery slope. Muslims, the AP
headline informs us, "worry about image." Not enough.


*
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 13:12:39 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:12:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The TRUTH from Hevron
Message-ID: <855590370812211112j2b44019fye3cd426e94fec748@mail.gmail.com>

The TRUTH from Hevron.  Having gotten arrested there (at age 20), trying to
restore a JEWISH OWNED building to it's Jewish owner, it is ASTOUNDING to me
that this (the eviction from Beit HaShalom) is still going on.  Looks like
I'm going to have to do that kind of stuff again.  Sighh...at least this
time around, I will have my daughters there to bail me out....

                              *Hanoch*
**


    *Time to soul-search*

David Wilder
December 21, 2008

This is being written on Erev Hanukka, the holiday of light. In Hebrew we
greet each other with the traditional blessing, "Chag Urim Sameach" ? "Have
a happy holiday of lights." I just came inside from photographing two
wondrous events. First, the construction of a huge Menorah on the Abu-Sneneh
hills, opposite the Avraham Avinu neighborhood. It was from these hills that
infant Shalhevet Pass was murdered by a terrorist sniper over eight years
ago. It was from these hills that such terrorists shot at Jews in Hebron, in
their homes, on the streets, into their automobiles, for two years. Tonight,
the light of Hanukka will shine forth from these hills, radiating the
brilliance of the miracle of the Maccabee's victory against Hellenization,
as far as the eye can see.

When I finished filming the menorah from afar, I found Hebron's kindergarten
and nursery school kids playing outside in the newly renovated playground,
the Hyman and Ruth Simon play center. Some of the children were adorned with
crowns on their heads, the remnants of the just concluded Hanukka party.
They looked so happy, their faces so full of delight, that I stopped and
photographed them too.

So, on the face of it, the article should be filled with festivity and joy.
But, alas, the events filling our lives are not always so enchanting.
Shabbat, for example. Two young women, aged sixteen and seventeen, were
walking down from Kiryat Arba in Hebron at 10:15 in the evening. When they
reached the bottom of the hill, at the crossroads leading to Ma'arat
HaMachpela, two Arab men started walking towards them. The girls took off.
One of the Arabs caught up to B., knocked her down and sat on top of her.
The other girl, behind her, started throwing rocks at him, while at the same
time both began screaming. No one heard them. There weren't any soldiers to
be seen. (However, about 100 meters up the road at least a dozen border
police were guarding the sealed up Beit HaShalom, ensuring that no one try
to retake the structure.) B. struggled with her attacker, and somehow,
miraculously, in her words, managed to escape from under him.

The girls finally found an army jeep and reported the attack. However the
soldier and officer in the jeep didn't take them seriously enough to report
the attack to their superior officers. Hebron's security chief wasn't
informed about the attack until 12:30 at night. The army had totally ignored
it.

The next morning the girls and their families met with the military
commander of the area, Col. Udi Ben-Mocha. When they complained that there
weren't any soldiers in the area he replied that he didn't have enough
manpower to place soldiers everywhere (except, of course, next to Beit
HaShalom.) This, in spite of the fact that numerous times Israelis are
attacked at the very location where the girls were attacked, on Shabbat and
during the week, when rock-throwing Arabs hurl blocks at passing
automobiles.

And now to the main task at hand.

Since the expulsion from Beit HaShalom, many articles have been written
lambasting the Hebron Jewish community and the struggle against the
expulsion. I previously wrote an oped piece which was printed in the
Jerusalem Post. However, it seems that was not enough. I don't have the time
or stomach to respond to each and every article written, but I have no
choice but to deal with one of the most problematic of these essays. I hope
my response will satisfy all those who have requested my reaction to each
and every one of these articles.

Before responding: I know that my response will upset some of those who read
it, perhaps even people I work with and have dealings with. However, I
cannot sit back and quietly accept such hateful slander, which is based on
outright lies.

Last Shabbat one Rabbi Mitch Wohlberg, rabbi of a Baltimore 'modern
orthodox' congregation, spewed out a sermon whose subject was terror. The
sermon, widely disseminated on internet is titled,* "Terrorists in our
midst."* I will try to relate to this work of self-hate point by point, but
not necessarily in the order it appears in the sermon.

How does Wohlberg relate to building?: "*The settlers who took over a home
in Hebron under questionable circumstances, spurring confrontations with the
Israeli government and with the local Arabs, called the home "Beit Ha-Shalom
? House of Peace? occupied by settlers in Hebron?."*

Wohlberg has already decreed that the 'occupation' is 'questionable.' Why?
Brooklyn resident Morris Abraham paid some one million dollars for the
building and has the documents to prove the purchase. A film of the Arab
counting the money appears on internet, as does a cassette of him stating
that he sold the building.

*The police and soldiers were acting by orders of the government, which in
turn was acting by order of the Supreme Court." * This is not true. The
Supreme Court did not order the government to expel the Jews from the
building. They ruled that the state was legally enabled to expel us, but did
not order them to do so. The decision to go ahead with the violent
confrontation was made by Ehud Barak in the midst of high-level discussions
with leaders of the Hebron community aimed at preventing the confrontation.

*there are Jews living in Hebron and across the West Bank who do not accept
the decisions of Israel's Supreme Court or of its government leaders."
*My article
in the Jerusalem Post relates to the judicial terror used against Hebron.

*"The settlers who took over a home in Hebron ? spurring confrontations with
the Israeli government and with the local Arabs?" *This is a lie. Jewish
families lived in Beit HaShalom for twenty months 'peacefully,' with almost
no confrontations with the Arabs living in the area. The Jews and Arab
walked the same street in front of the building, without any misconduct by
any of the Jews living or visiting there.

*"these same Jewish terrorists have thrown stones at Israeli police and
soldiers.  They have uprooted the olive trees of Arabs, attacked Arab women
and old people, have vandalized mosques and Muslim cemeteries..." * Again,
these accusations are out and out lies. In January, 2008, Efrat Weiss
writing in the Hebrew internet site ynet and the daily newspaper Yediot
Achronot wrote: *"The head of the Israel Police's Hebron district, Commander
Avshalom Peled told Ynet that "from my experience in the Hebron and Gush
Etzion area, the activity on the part of the militant left can be severe and
dangerous."*

*Hebron** police have recorded a drop in disturbances involving Jewish
settlers over the past year and noted an improvement in the dialogue between
the settler community and police?"In the past we did not have any problems
with the leftist organizations, but all this changed recently," another
police official said. "Their activity has become more extreme in nature, and
it may result in (an eruption of violence)."? "The leftists antagonize the
settlers in the hope that the settlers will attack them," a police official
said.The left-wing organizations have become an even greater threat than the
anarchists.""*

What factual evidence can Wohlberg supply to prove that Jews in Hebron have
uprooted olive trees, vandalized mosques and desecrated cemeteries?
Unfortunately, the opposite is true. The ancient Jewish cemetery in Hebron,
as well as Ma'arat HaMachpela have been desecrated time and time again,
without any reaction by Israeli security forces or international media, or,
for that matter, Rabbi Wohlberg.

It is true that about 2 weeks before the expulsion a small group of kids
drew Jewish stars on stones at an Arab cemetery and wrote slogans on a
nearby mosque. They were immediately requested to leave the building and the
vicinity and the others were instructed, in no uncertain terms, that this
was not to happen again. Again, for almost 2 years Jews lived in that
building without any such incidents at the cemetery or mosque.

What does Wohlberg call us?: *" So what should we call Jews who similarly
threaten people?  There is only one word: "Terrorists."*

Rabbi Wohlberg, how many Arabs were injured or killed by 'Jewish terror?'
Why did you neglect mentioning Eliyasaf Asban, a sixteen year old who was
hit in the head by a block hurled by an Arab. Eliyasaf was standing next to
Beit HaShalom speaking to his brother and friends when the attack occurred.
His skull was crushed and he was nearly killed, remaining unconscious and in
critical condition for days after being hit. The Arab who tried to kill him
still hasn't been arrested, despite the fact that the police know his
identity. Yet the Jews are terrorists, being compared in the same breath
with the monsters who murdered hundreds, including Jews, in India: *" The
terrorists who attacked in Mumbai were members of a terrorist organization
called Lashkar-E-Taiba?"*

Wohlberg, at the beginning of his sermon, describes what he calls a
'pogrom.' Yet he refrains from describing the 'attempted lynch' against two
Jews from Kiryat Arba who where trying to get their kids out of Beit
HaShalom and were forced to shoot in order to save themselves. One of the
men is under house arrest, despite demands by the prosecutor's office that
he be kept in jail, because a magistrate court judge stated that it is not
clear that he was responsible for the events which forced him to shoot in
self defense.

There were, as has been stated by myself and other representatives of
Hebron's Jewish community, incidents which occurred before and during the
expulsion which were not planned, nor are they considered to be acceptable
or legitimate forms of protest. However, as repugnant as some of these
events were, let's examine another, similar scenario:

Last week, (as reported in ynetnews [
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3640883,00.html] and other media
networks) Israeli security forces conducted a mass training exercise to
ostensibly practice dealing with riots. However, sources participating in
the exercise told that much of the time was spent practicing how to expel
people from their homes. Some of the police played themselves ? expellers,
while others were transformed into 'settlers' being thrown out of their
homes.

As a result of this 'training exercise' fifty four police were injured due
to the fact that* "the rioters" apparently used excessive force on
"peacekeeping" officers during a mock disturbance."*

*In other words, police beat police ? on both sides. The expellers beat the
expellees, who hit back. And this is police vs. police! *

So what, Rabbi Wohlberg, do you have to say to that?! If that's what happens
during a 'mock disturbance' between police, what do expect kids to do in a
'real' situation?!

And of course, will you condemn the Arabs who tried to rape and murder two
young Jewish women on Friday night in Hebron, Rabbi Wohlberg?

I would like to now conclude with several comments:

   1.  As I wrote in the Jerusalem Post:* *"It should be clear. Hebron's
Jewish community opposes and rejects any and all violence aimed at innocent
people, be they Arabs, Jews or anyone else." By the same token, we reject
desecration of any kind by anyone.  We are not terrorists, Rabbi Wohlberg.
We are Jews who love our country, our land and our people. And we live what
we believe. Our lives are dedicated entirely to G-d, to the Jewish people
and to Eretz Yisrael, and we do not, nor will we ever apologize for that.

  2. Jews have not ever conducted 'pogroms' against anyone. You forgot, in
your Shabbat spiel, to recall a true Hebron pogrom, which took place in
August of 1929, when 67 Jews were murdered by Arab masses, with the
survivors then expelled from the city of Abraham by the then occupying
British. You also forgot to mention the war against the Jews, when Arabs
shot at us for two years, killing scores, including a ten month old baby in
Hebron proper.

  3. I would like to see what you would do, Rabbi Wohlberg, when, due to
growing anti-Semitism in the United States, one fine Saturday morning,
masses of police, FBI, and other security troops show up outside your shul,
while you are in the middle of a sermon, and start forcibly removing you and
your congregation from you pulpit and your seats. Will you walk out like
sheep on the way to the slaughter, or will you fight back, refusing to be
treated like subhuman beings? After all, 'dina d'malchuta dina' ? right,
Rabbi Wohlberg? If they want to expel you, they can ? that could be the law
of the land, right, Rabbi Wohlberg?

Don't think it couldn't happen. In Germany they didn't think it could
happen. In Hungary, they didn't think it could happen. Ditto other countries
in Europe.

Rabbi Wohlberg, we will not be, here in Hebron or anywhere in Israel, sheep
led to slaughter. We are being dealt with as 3rd class citizens with laws
being circumvented and at best, rewritten, to deal with over 300,000 people,
including 'settler fanatics' who live not only in 'occupied Hebron,' but in
'the occupied Jordon Valley' and the 'occupied Golan Heights.'

Don't fool yourself or your congregation Rabbi. You too will be thought of,
and dealt with, as 'occupiers' of downtown Baltimore. I suggest you stop
breathing fire against kids, who despite their good intentions may have
erred, and begin soul-searching yourself: who are you, what are you, and
what do you really believe in? Because, judging from last week's sermon, the
answer to these questions are very very unclear.



   ***comments *





*The Jewish Community of Hebron**
*POB 105 , *Kiryat Arba-Hebron 90100              **hebron at hebron.org.il**
*
*Tour Hebron:** Tel 972-52-431-7055 or write:
tour at hebron.com*

*The Hebron Fund**
*1760 Ocean Ave., Brooklyn, NY 11230
*www.hebronfund.com  hebronfund at aol.com  *
718-677-6886
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 13:19:20 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:19:20 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The OTHER peace process
Message-ID: <855590370812211119u69310e03pd8cb34dec7976ccc@mail.gmail.com>

ANOTHER article that I wish I had written first!  From the 'Samson Blinded
site:

                 *      Hanoch*
The concept of land for peace got considerably distorted. What peace is
there
to have? Originally, the idea was to relinquish the occupied-liberated lands
in
return for a comprehensive settlement with Arabs. Moshe Dayan said after the
1967 war, "I'm waiting for a phone call from [Jordan princeling] Hussein."
No call was placed, though ? a sufficient indication that Arabs don't care
of the lands taken from them.
The peace settlement's primary goal was ending belligerency with Egypt.
Israel has achieved temporary recess through the Camp David Accords, and the
current peace process does nothing peaceful. Ostensibly, Israel might be
interested in non-belligerency with Syria; such is, however, already
achieved by
Israeli nuclear deterrence. On other hand, Syria won't destroy its missile
arsenals following a peace treaty with Israel, or stop supporting Hezbollah
which is primarily Syria's Lebanese arm rather than anti-Israeli one.

The Saudi peace plan was laughingly arrogant: Saudis are not at war with
Israel, or they would have been back to the Stone Age and camels. Even so,
the
plan imagined peace with all Arab and possibly all Muslim states after
establishing a Palestinian state and relinquishing the Golan Heights. Since
then, Saudis and others, including Condi Rice, reneged on the deal: they
said
that Palestinian statehood cannot bring immediate normalization with Arabs.
"Not immediate" is a euphemism for "never."

Meir Kahane turned the offer on its head: we will keep land and they would
have
peace. And why not? What, Israel cannot pacify Palestinian Arabs other than
by
giving in to their demands? We want them to stop showering us with rockets;
why
don't they want us to stop bombing them? Instead of giving them land, we can
offer much better peace terms: sign here and here, and we will stop bombing
you.
That's how all normal nations did.

What's going on now is not "land for peace." The proposition's two
sides are hardly related. Not only we can achieve peace without giving up
land,
but giving up land is extremely unlikely to pacify the region viz-a-viz
Israel.

Israelis, who look haughtily at Holocaust victims led like a lamb to
slaughter,
should better look in the mirror, how they give away the depth of defense
and
put up with nuclear Iran.

You can leave a comment at
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/the-other-peace-process.htm
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Sun Dec 21 14:10:07 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:10:07 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] The TRUTH from Hevron
In-Reply-To: <855590370812211112j2b44019fye3cd426e94fec748@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812211112j2b44019fye3cd426e94fec748@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <494EA29F.7020007@gninc.ca>

Dear Hanoch

Hanoch, I appreciate your input as a rule. And also where you corrected 
me in the grout as having spread a lie. You recently told me in an 
e-mail, "Where did you hear that American Jews financed Hitler?  That's 
one of the most outrageous comments I've ever heard.  Not only 
outrageous, but not true, either". Like I had informed and let it spread 
through the whole dialogue group. If indeed it was not true Hanoch, I 
would want to get that corrected. Do you believe what I sent you from 
where I took it, taken from the website www.hirhome.com was not an 
honest statement by researcher Francisco Gil-White? Who got kicked out 
of the University of Pennsyvania, when he changed his former views about 
Israel, and started to side with the Jewish people? That referred to a 
reform Rabbi Stephen Wise, who had secretly made a trip to the middle 
east if I have it right, to support Hitler. Is there a difference in 
these two Rabbi's messages toward the so called settlers type of Jews? 
Is this article of this Orthodox rabbi in this following article also 
not true? I don't quite get it. Or is there a difference in what these 
two rabbi's teach? I'm serious Hanoch, I don't like to spread lies.

Cornie



Hanoch Young wrote:
> The TRUTH from Hevron.  Having gotten arrested there (at age 20), 
> trying to restore a JEWISH OWNED building to it's Jewish owner, it is 
> ASTOUNDING to me that this (the eviction from Beit HaShalom) is still 
> going on.  Looks like I'm going to have to do that kind of stuff 
> again.  Sighh...at least this time around, I will have my daughters 
> there to bail me out....
>                                 
>                               */Hanoch/*
> *//* 
>
>  
>
>
>   *Time to soul-search*
>
> David Wilder
> December 21, 2008
>
> This is being written on Erev Hanukka, the holiday of light. In Hebrew 
> we greet each other with the traditional blessing, "Chag Urim Sameach" 
> ? "Have a happy holiday of lights." I just came inside from 
> photographing two wondrous events. First, the construction of a huge 
> Menorah on the Abu-Sneneh hills, opposite the Avraham Avinu 
> neighborhood. It was from these hills that infant Shalhevet Pass was 
> murdered by a terrorist sniper over eight years ago. It was from these 
> hills that such terrorists shot at Jews in Hebron, in their homes, on 
> the streets, into their automobiles, for two years. Tonight, the light 
> of Hanukka will shine forth from these hills, radiating the brilliance 
> of the miracle of the Maccabee's victory against Hellenization, as far 
> as the eye can see.
>
> When I finished filming the menorah from afar, I found Hebron's 
> kindergarten and nursery school kids playing outside in the newly 
> renovated playground, the Hyman and Ruth Simon play center. Some of 
> the children were adorned with crowns on their heads, the remnants of 
> the just concluded Hanukka party. They looked so happy, their faces so 
> full of delight, that I stopped and photographed them too.
>
> So, on the face of it, the article should be filled with festivity 
> and joy. But, alas, the events filling our lives are not always so 
> enchanting. Shabbat, for example. Two young women, aged sixteen and 
> seventeen, were walking down from Kiryat Arba in Hebron at 10:15 in 
> the evening. When they reached the bottom of the hill, at the 
> crossroads leading to Ma'arat HaMachpela, two Arab men started walking 
> towards them. The girls took off. One of the Arabs caught up to B., 
> knocked her down and sat on top of her. The other girl, behind her, 
> started throwing rocks at him, while at the same time both began 
> screaming. No one heard them. There weren't any soldiers to be seen. 
> (However, about 100 meters up the road at least a dozen border police 
> were guarding the sealed up Beit HaShalom, ensuring that no one try to 
> retake the structure.) B. struggled with her attacker, and somehow, 
> miraculously, in her words, managed to escape from under him.
>
> The girls finally found an army jeep and reported the attack. However 
> the soldier and officer in the jeep didn't take them seriously enough 
> to report the attack to their superior officers. Hebron's security 
> chief wasn't informed about the attack until 12:30 at night. The army 
> had totally ignored it.
>
> The next morning the girls and their families met with the military 
> commander of the area, Col. Udi Ben-Mocha. When they complained that 
> there weren't any soldiers in the area he replied that he didn't have 
> enough manpower to place soldiers everywhere (except, of course, next 
> to Beit HaShalom.) This, in spite of the fact that numerous times 
> Israelis are attacked at the very location where the girls were 
> attacked, on Shabbat and during the week, when rock-throwing Arabs 
> hurl blocks at passing automobiles.
>
> And now to the main task at hand.
>
> Since the expulsion from Beit HaShalom, many articles have been 
> written lambasting the Hebron Jewish community and the struggle 
> against the expulsion. I previously wrote an oped piece which was 
> printed in the Jerusalem Post. However, it seems that was not enough. 
> I don't have the time or stomach to respond to each and every article 
> written, but I have no choice but to deal with one of the most 
> problematic of these essays. I hope my response will satisfy all those 
> who have requested my reaction to each and every one of these articles.
>
> Before responding: I know that my response will upset some of those 
> who read it, perhaps even people I work with and have dealings with. 
> However, I cannot sit back and quietly accept such hateful slander, 
> which is based on outright lies.
>
> Last Shabbat one Rabbi Mitch Wohlberg, rabbi of a Baltimore 'modern 
> orthodox' congregation, spewed out a sermon whose subject was terror. 
> The sermon, widely disseminated on internet is titled,// "Terrorists 
> in our midst."// I will try to relate to this work of self-hate point 
> by point, but not necessarily in the order it appears in the sermon.
>
> How does Wohlberg relate to building?: "//The settlers who took over a 
> home in Hebron under questionable circumstances, spurring 
> confrontations with the Israeli government and with the local Arabs, 
> called the home "Beit Ha-Shalom ? House of Peace? occupied by settlers 
> in Hebron?."//
>
> Wohlberg has already decreed that the 'occupation' is 'questionable.' 
> Why? Brooklyn resident Morris Abraham paid some one million dollars 
> for the building and has the documents to prove the purchase. A film 
> of the Arab counting the money appears on internet, as does a cassette 
> of him stating that he sold the building.
>
> //The police and soldiers were acting by orders of the government, 
> which in turn was acting by order of the Supreme Court." // This is 
> not true. The Supreme Court did not order the government to expel the 
> Jews from the building. They ruled that the state was legally enabled 
> to expel us, but did not order them to do so. The decision to go ahead 
> with the violent confrontation was made by Ehud Barak in the midst of 
> high-level discussions with leaders of the Hebron community aimed at 
> preventing the confrontation.
>
> //there are Jews living in Hebron and across the West Bank who do not 
> accept the decisions of Israel's Supreme Court or of its government 
> leaders." //My article in the Jerusalem Post relates to the judicial 
> terror used against Hebron.
>
> //"The settlers who took over a home in Hebron ? spurring 
> confrontations with the Israeli government and with the local Arabs?" 
> //This is a lie. Jewish families lived in Beit HaShalom for twenty 
> months 'peacefully,' with almost no confrontations with the Arabs 
> living in the area. The Jews and Arab walked the same street in front 
> of the building, without any misconduct by any of the Jews living or 
> visiting there.
>
> //"these same Jewish terrorists have thrown stones at Israeli police 
> and soldiers.  They have uprooted the olive trees of Arabs, attacked 
> Arab women and old people, have vandalized mosques and Muslim 
> cemeteries..." // Again, these accusations are out and out lies. In 
> January, 2008, Efrat Weiss writing in the Hebrew internet site ynet 
> and the daily newspaper Yediot Achronot wrote: **"The head of the 
> Israel Police's Hebron district, Commander Avshalom Peled told Ynet 
> that "from my experience in the Hebron and Gush Etzion area, the 
> activity on the part of the militant left can be severe and dangerous."**
>
> **Hebron**** police have recorded a drop in disturbances involving 
> Jewish settlers over the past year and noted an improvement in the 
> dialogue between the settler community and police?"In the past we did 
> not have any problems with the leftist organizations, but all this 
> changed recently," another police official said. "Their activity has 
> become more extreme in nature, and it may result in (an eruption of 
> violence)."? "The leftists antagonize the settlers in the hope that 
> the settlers will attack them," a police official said.The left-wing 
> organizations have become an even greater threat than the anarchists.""**
>
> What factual evidence can Wohlberg supply to prove that Jews in Hebron 
> have uprooted olive trees, vandalized mosques and desecrated 
> cemeteries? Unfortunately, the opposite is true. The ancient Jewish 
> cemetery in Hebron, as well as Ma'arat HaMachpela have been desecrated 
> time and time again, without any reaction by Israeli security forces 
> or international media, or, for that matter, Rabbi Wohlberg.
>
> It is true that about 2 weeks before the expulsion a small group of 
> kids drew Jewish stars on stones at an Arab cemetery and wrote slogans 
> on a nearby mosque. They were immediately requested to leave the 
> building and the vicinity and the others were instructed, in no 
> uncertain terms, that this was not to happen again. Again, for almost 
> 2 years Jews lived in that building without any such incidents at the 
> cemetery or mosque.
>
> What does Wohlberg call us?: //" So what should we call Jews who 
> similarly threaten people?  There is only one word: "Terrorists."//
>
> Rabbi Wohlberg, how many Arabs were injured or killed by 'Jewish 
> terror?' Why did you neglect mentioning Eliyasaf Asban, a sixteen year 
> old who was hit in the head by a block hurled by an Arab. Eliyasaf was 
> standing next to Beit HaShalom speaking to his brother and friends 
> when the attack occurred. His skull was crushed and he was nearly 
> killed, remaining unconscious and in critical condition for days after 
> being hit. The Arab who tried to kill him still hasn't been arrested, 
> despite the fact that the police know his identity. Yet the Jews are 
> terrorists, being compared in the same breath with the monsters who 
> murdered hundreds, including Jews, in India: //" The terrorists who 
> attacked in Mumbai were members of a terrorist organization called 
> Lashkar-E-Taiba?"//
>
> Wohlberg, at the beginning of his sermon, describes what he calls a 
> 'pogrom.' Yet he refrains from describing the 'attempted lynch' 
> against two Jews from Kiryat Arba who where trying to get their kids 
> out of Beit HaShalom and were forced to shoot in order to save 
> themselves. One of the men is under house arrest, despite demands by 
> the prosecutor's office that he be kept in jail, because a magistrate 
> court judge stated that it is not clear that he was responsible for 
> the events which forced him to shoot in self defense.
>
> There were, as has been stated by myself and other representatives of 
> Hebron's Jewish community, incidents which occurred before and during 
> the expulsion which were not planned, nor are they considered to be 
> acceptable or legitimate forms of protest. However, as repugnant as 
> some of these events were, let's examine another, similar scenario:
>
> Last week, (as reported in ynetnews 
> [http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3640883,00.html] and other 
> media networks) Israeli security forces conducted a mass training 
> exercise to ostensibly practice dealing with riots. However, sources 
> participating in the exercise told that much of the time was spent 
> practicing how to expel people from their homes. Some of the police 
> played themselves ? expellers, while others were transformed into 
> 'settlers' being thrown out of their homes.
>
> As a result of this 'training exercise' fifty four police were injured 
> due to the fact that** "the rioters" apparently used excessive force 
> on "peacekeeping" officers during a mock disturbance."**
>
> **In other words, police beat police ? on both sides. The expellers 
> beat the expellees, who hit back. And this is police vs. police! **
>
> So what, Rabbi Wohlberg, do you have to say to that?! If that's what 
> happens during a 'mock disturbance' between police, what do expect 
> kids to do in a 'real' situation?!
>
> And of course, will you condemn the Arabs who tried to rape and murder 
> two young Jewish women on Friday night in Hebron, Rabbi Wohlberg?
>
> I would like to now conclude with several comments:
>
>    1.  As I wrote in the Jerusalem Post:/ /"It should be clear. 
> Hebron's Jewish community opposes and rejects any and all violence 
> aimed at innocent people, be they Arabs, Jews or anyone else." By the 
> same token, we reject desecration of any kind by anyone.  We are not 
> terrorists, Rabbi Wohlberg. We are Jews who love our country, our land 
> and our people. And we live what we believe. Our lives are dedicated 
> entirely to G-d, to the Jewish people and to Eretz Yisrael, and we do 
> not, nor will we ever apologize for that.
>
>   2. Jews have not ever conducted 'pogroms' against anyone. You 
> forgot, in your Shabbat spiel, to recall a true Hebron pogrom, which 
> took place in August of 1929, when 67 Jews were murdered by Arab 
> masses, with the survivors then expelled from the city of Abraham by 
> the then occupying British. You also forgot to mention the war against 
> the Jews, when Arabs shot at us for two years, killing scores, 
> including a ten month old baby in Hebron proper.
>
>   3. I would like to see what you would do, Rabbi Wohlberg, when, due 
> to growing anti-Semitism in the United States, one fine Saturday 
> morning, masses of police, FBI, and other security troops show up 
> outside your shul, while you are in the middle of a sermon, and start 
> forcibly removing you and your congregation from you pulpit and your 
> seats. Will you walk out like sheep on the way to the slaughter, or 
> will you fight back, refusing to be treated like subhuman beings? 
> After all, 'dina d'malchuta dina' ? right, Rabbi Wohlberg? If they 
> want to expel you, they can ? that could be the law of the land, 
> right, Rabbi Wohlberg?
>
> Don't think it couldn't happen. In Germany they didn't think it could 
> happen. In Hungary, they didn't think it could happen. Ditto other 
> countries in Europe.
>
> Rabbi Wohlberg, we will not be, here in Hebron or anywhere in Israel, 
> sheep led to slaughter. We are being dealt with as 3^rd class citizens 
> with laws being circumvented and at best, rewritten, to deal with over 
> 300,000 people, including 'settler fanatics' who live not only in 
> 'occupied Hebron,' but in 'the occupied Jordon Valley' and the 
> 'occupied Golan Heights.'
>
> Don't fool yourself or your congregation Rabbi. You too will be 
> thought of, and dealt with, as 'occupiers' of downtown Baltimore. I 
> suggest you stop breathing fire against kids, who despite their good 
> intentions may have erred, and begin soul-searching yourself: who are 
> you, what are you, and what do you really believe in? Because, judging 
> from last week's sermon, the answer to these questions are very very 
> unclear.
>
>  
>
>    ***comments *
>
>  
>
>  
>
> **The Jewish Community of Hebron***
> *POB 105 , **Kiryat Arba-Hebron 90100             
>  ****hebron at hebron.org.il****   **
> **Tour Hebron:**** Tel 972-52-431-7055 or write:  **
> tour at hebron.com**
>
> 	
>
> **The Hebron Fund***
> *1760 Ocean Ave., Brooklyn, NY 11230
> **www.hebronfund.com  hebronfund at aol.com  **
> 718-677-6886
>                      
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 14:50:03 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:50:03 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The TRUTH from Hevron
In-Reply-To: <494EA29F.7020007@gninc.ca>
References: <855590370812211112j2b44019fye3cd426e94fec748@mail.gmail.com>
	<494EA29F.7020007@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <855590370812211250i46403e8aseda2b48237bd82be@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Cornie,

    Thanks for your note, I had been hoping to get back to you by this
evening, but let me give it a shot while still at work (waiting for a number
of return phone calls).  Firstly, I read the entire article you referred me
to - it took almost as long to print out the entire 94 pages, as it took me
to read it!  However, since most of the sources he used I was not only
familiar with, but actually have them in my own, personal library, it was a
quick read.  It was also helpful that it's THE time period in Jewish history
that I am most readily familiar with.

    Having said that, NO WHERE in the article does it imply AT ALL that
there was American Jewish financial support to Hitler.  It is true, however
that the "Jewish Establishment" (the low-life scum that my friends and I
tend to label as 'Hellenists' or the 'Eruv Rav' - the mixed multitude)  did
everything they could to quash the boycott of German goods.  But that's a
far cry from direct financial support, I think we could all agree on that.

     These were the same "leaders" (self-serving scum, like Reform Rabbi
Stephen Wise, who was more interested in ingratiating himself with FDR, then
saving any Jews) who tried to keep the news of the horrific murders of Jews
out of the press, and fought the activities of those activists (the 'Bergson
Committee') who tried to wake up American Jewery to do something to save
their brethren in Europe while they still could.  Wise did not go to the
Middle East, and he did not support Hitler; HOWEVER, he wanted to keep
things quiet in America, so as not to "cause Anti-Semitism" and have the war
labeled as a war to save Jews.  In other words, Wise was more interested in
his own position...

     Now we have to clear up some terminology.  When the article refers to
'Zionists' not saving Jews, or trying to exclude religious or 'activist'
Jews (from Jabotinsky's movement, Betar), and wanting assimilated German
Jews to populate the Land of Israel (the 'British Mandate' was in effect -
it was an English military occupation), it refers to the LABOR Zionists, the
ruling group of David Ben-Gurion, Chaim Weizman, etc.  These are the same
guys (or their ideological successors) that ruled Israel from 1948-1977, and
did everything they could to iradicate 'Orthodoxy' and to promote their
version of a secular Israel, "just like any other country."

    When they controlled immigration, they limited the number of the
(life-saving) certificates given to religious or 'activist' (again, Betar,
the group that Menachem Begin was running) Jews.  That is all true - and is
a horrific page in Jewish history.  But it is NOT 'Zionism' that was, or is
wrong, but the Labor/Socialist/Secular/Collaborationist individuals, who
were part of the political Zionist movement.

    When people like me use the terminology that my teacher (Rav Meir
Kahane, May G-d avenge his blood) used, we call these pigs (and they WERE
pigs), 'Hellenists' - and they do not represent traditional Jewish thought,
or life, at all.  Wise and his cronies were nervous because the position
that American Jews were in during the 1930's - 1940's was far less secure
(although we're beginning to get back there..) then it was years later.  But
for their own benefit, they did not do enough to help save Jews...and yes,
they had disdain for Orthodox Jews.  However, that does not mean they gave
financial support to the Nazis.

    Now, you questioned the article that I sent about Hevron. David Wilder
is one of the great Jews of this generation, and he was sharing his views,
and attacking a critic (who happened to be an American 'Orthodox' Rabbi).
Personally, I trust David Wilder totally, and thought the group would be
interested in what's going on in Hevron.  It has nothing at all to do with
what I posted in response to your note, or what I've written above.  I am
missing the connection, or inference that you're drawing between the
articles - sorry.

    Best regards,
                     * Hanoch*



On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca> wrote:

> Dear Hanoch
>
> Hanoch, I appreciate your input as a rule. And also where you corrected me
> in the grout as having spread a lie. You recently told me in an e-mail, "Where
> did you hear that American Jews financed Hitler?  That's one of the most
> outrageous comments I've ever heard.  Not only outrageous, but not true,
> either". Like I had informed and let it spread through the whole dialogue
> group. If indeed it was not true Hanoch, I would want to get that corrected.
> Do you believe what I sent you from where I took it, taken from the website
> www.hirhome.com was not an honest statement by researcher Francisco
> Gil-White? Who got kicked out of the University of Pennsyvania, when he
> changed his former views about Israel, and started to side with the Jewish
> people? That referred to a reform Rabbi Stephen Wise, who had secretly made
> a trip to the middle east if I have it right, to support Hitler. Is there a
> difference in these two Rabbi's messages toward the so called settlers type
> of Jews? Is this article of this Orthodox rabbi in this following article
> also not true? I don't quite get it. Or is there a difference in what these
> two rabbi's teach? I'm serious Hanoch, I don't like to spread lies.
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
> Hanoch Young wrote:
>
>   The TRUTH from Hevron.  Having gotten arrested there (at age 20), trying
> to restore a JEWISH OWNED building to it's Jewish owner, it is ASTOUNDING to
> me that this (the eviction from Beit HaShalom) is still going on.  Looks
> like I'm going to have to do that kind of stuff again.  Sighh...at least
> this time around, I will have my daughters there to bail me out....
>
>                               *Hanoch*
> **
>
>
>     *Time to soul-search*
>
> David Wilder
> December 21, 2008
>
> This is being written on Erev Hanukka, the holiday of light. In Hebrew we
> greet each other with the traditional blessing, "Chag Urim Sameach" ? "Have
> a happy holiday of lights." I just came inside from photographing two
> wondrous events. First, the construction of a huge Menorah on the Abu-Sneneh
> hills, opposite the Avraham Avinu neighborhood. It was from these hills that
> infant Shalhevet Pass was murdered by a terrorist sniper over eight years
> ago. It was from these hills that such terrorists shot at Jews in Hebron, in
> their homes, on the streets, into their automobiles, for two years. Tonight,
> the light of Hanukka will shine forth from these hills, radiating the
> brilliance of the miracle of the Maccabee's victory against Hellenization,
> as far as the eye can see.
>
> When I finished filming the menorah from afar, I found Hebron's
> kindergarten and nursery school kids playing outside in the newly renovated
> playground, the Hyman and Ruth Simon play center. Some of the children were
> adorned with crowns on their heads, the remnants of the just concluded
> Hanukka party. They looked so happy, their faces so full of delight, that I
> stopped and photographed them too.
>
> So, on the face of it, the article should be filled with festivity and joy.
> But, alas, the events filling our lives are not always so enchanting.
> Shabbat, for example. Two young women, aged sixteen and seventeen, were
> walking down from Kiryat Arba in Hebron at 10:15 in the evening. When they
> reached the bottom of the hill, at the crossroads leading to Ma'arat
> HaMachpela, two Arab men started walking towards them. The girls took off.
> One of the Arabs caught up to B., knocked her down and sat on top of her.
> The other girl, behind her, started throwing rocks at him, while at the same
> time both began screaming. No one heard them. There weren't any soldiers to
> be seen. (However, about 100 meters up the road at least a dozen border
> police were guarding the sealed up Beit HaShalom, ensuring that no one try
> to retake the structure.) B. struggled with her attacker, and somehow,
> miraculously, in her words, managed to escape from under him.
>
> The girls finally found an army jeep and reported the attack. However the
> soldier and officer in the jeep didn't take them seriously enough to report
> the attack to their superior officers. Hebron's security chief wasn't
> informed about the attack until 12:30 at night. The army had totally ignored
> it.
>
> The next morning the girls and their families met with the military
> commander of the area, Col. Udi Ben-Mocha. When they complained that there
> weren't any soldiers in the area he replied that he didn't have enough
> manpower to place soldiers everywhere (except, of course, next to Beit
> HaShalom.) This, in spite of the fact that numerous times Israelis are
> attacked at the very location where the girls were attacked, on Shabbat and
> during the week, when rock-throwing Arabs hurl blocks at passing
> automobiles.
>
> And now to the main task at hand.
>
> Since the expulsion from Beit HaShalom, many articles have been written
> lambasting the Hebron Jewish community and the struggle against the
> expulsion. I previously wrote an oped piece which was printed in the
> Jerusalem Post. However, it seems that was not enough. I don't have the time
> or stomach to respond to each and every article written, but I have no
> choice but to deal with one of the most problematic of these essays. I hope
> my response will satisfy all those who have requested my reaction to each
> and every one of these articles.
>
> Before responding: I know that my response will upset some of those who
> read it, perhaps even people I work with and have dealings with. However, I
> cannot sit back and quietly accept such hateful slander, which is based on
> outright lies.
>
> Last Shabbat one Rabbi Mitch Wohlberg, rabbi of a Baltimore 'modern
> orthodox' congregation, spewed out a sermon whose subject was terror. The
> sermon, widely disseminated on internet is titled,* "Terrorists in our
> midst."* I will try to relate to this work of self-hate point by point,
> but not necessarily in the order it appears in the sermon.
>
> How does Wohlberg relate to building?: "*The settlers who took over a home
> in Hebron under questionable circumstances, spurring confrontations with the
> Israeli government and with the local Arabs, called the home "Beit Ha-Shalom
> ? House of Peace? occupied by settlers in Hebron?."*
>
> Wohlberg has already decreed that the 'occupation' is 'questionable.' Why?
> Brooklyn resident Morris Abraham paid some one million dollars for the
> building and has the documents to prove the purchase. A film of the Arab
> counting the money appears on internet, as does a cassette of him stating
> that he sold the building.
>
> *The police and soldiers were acting by orders of the government, which in
> turn was acting by order of the Supreme Court." * This is not true. The
> Supreme Court did not order the government to expel the Jews from the
> building. They ruled that the state was legally enabled to expel us, but did
> not order them to do so. The decision to go ahead with the violent
> confrontation was made by Ehud Barak in the midst of high-level discussions
> with leaders of the Hebron community aimed at preventing the confrontation.
>
> *there are Jews living in Hebron and across the West Bank who do not
> accept the decisions of Israel's Supreme Court or of its government
> leaders." *My article in the Jerusalem Post relates to the judicial terror
> used against Hebron.
>
> *"The settlers who took over a home in Hebron ? spurring confrontations
> with the Israeli government and with the local Arabs?" *This is a
> lie. Jewish families lived in Beit HaShalom for twenty months 'peacefully,'
> with almost no confrontations with the Arabs living in the area. The Jews
> and Arab walked the same street in front of the building, without any
> misconduct by any of the Jews living or visiting there.
>
> *"these same Jewish terrorists have thrown stones at Israeli police and
> soldiers.  They have uprooted the olive trees of Arabs, attacked Arab women
> and old people, have vandalized mosques and Muslim cemeteries..." * Again,
> these accusations are out and out lies. In January, 2008, Efrat Weiss
> writing in the Hebrew internet site ynet and the daily newspaper Yediot
> Achronot wrote: *"The head of the Israel Police's Hebron district,
> Commander Avshalom Peled told Ynet that "from my experience in the Hebron
> and Gush Etzion area, the activity on the part of the militant left can be
> severe and dangerous."*
>
> *Hebron** police have recorded a drop in disturbances involving Jewish
> settlers over the past year and noted an improvement in the dialogue between
> the settler community and police?"In the past we did not have any problems
> with the leftist organizations, but all this changed recently," another
> police official said. "Their activity has become more extreme in nature, and
> it may result in (an eruption of violence)."? "The leftists antagonize the
> settlers in the hope that the settlers will attack them," a police official
> said.The left-wing organizations have become an even greater threat than the
> anarchists.""*
>
> What factual evidence can Wohlberg supply to prove that Jews in Hebron have
> uprooted olive trees, vandalized mosques and desecrated cemeteries?
> Unfortunately, the opposite is true. The ancient Jewish cemetery in Hebron,
> as well as Ma'arat HaMachpela have been desecrated time and time again,
> without any reaction by Israeli security forces or international media, or,
> for that matter, Rabbi Wohlberg.
>
> It is true that about 2 weeks before the expulsion a small group of kids
> drew Jewish stars on stones at an Arab cemetery and wrote slogans on a
> nearby mosque. They were immediately requested to leave the building and the
> vicinity and the others were instructed, in no uncertain terms, that this
> was not to happen again. Again, for almost 2 years Jews lived in that
> building without any such incidents at the cemetery or mosque.
>
> What does Wohlberg call us?: *" So what should we call Jews who similarly
> threaten people?  There is only one word: "Terrorists."*
>
> Rabbi Wohlberg, how many Arabs were injured or killed by 'Jewish terror?'
> Why did you neglect mentioning Eliyasaf Asban, a sixteen year old who was
> hit in the head by a block hurled by an Arab. Eliyasaf was standing next to
> Beit HaShalom speaking to his brother and friends when the attack occurred.
> His skull was crushed and he was nearly killed, remaining unconscious and in
> critical condition for days after being hit. The Arab who tried to kill him
> still hasn't been arrested, despite the fact that the police know his
> identity. Yet the Jews are terrorists, being compared in the same breath
> with the monsters who murdered hundreds, including Jews, in India: *" The
> terrorists who attacked in Mumbai were members of a terrorist organization
> called Lashkar-E-Taiba?"*
>
> Wohlberg, at the beginning of his sermon, describes what he calls a
> 'pogrom.' Yet he refrains from describing the 'attempted lynch' against two
> Jews from Kiryat Arba who where trying to get their kids out of Beit
> HaShalom and were forced to shoot in order to save themselves. One of the
> men is under house arrest, despite demands by the prosecutor's office that
> he be kept in jail, because a magistrate court judge stated that it is not
> clear that he was responsible for the events which forced him to shoot in
> self defense.
>
> There were, as has been stated by myself and other representatives of
> Hebron's Jewish community, incidents which occurred before and during the
> expulsion which were not planned, nor are they considered to be acceptable
> or legitimate forms of protest. However, as repugnant as some of these
> events were, let's examine another, similar scenario:
>
> Last week, (as reported in ynetnews [
> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3640883,00.html] and other media
> networks) Israeli security forces conducted a mass training exercise to
> ostensibly practice dealing with riots. However, sources participating in
> the exercise told that much of the time was spent practicing how to expel
> people from their homes. Some of the police played themselves ? expellers,
> while others were transformed into 'settlers' being thrown out of their
> homes.
>
> As a result of this 'training exercise' fifty four police were injured due
> to the fact that* "the rioters" apparently used excessive force on
> "peacekeeping" officers during a mock disturbance."*
>
> *In other words, police beat police ? on both sides. The expellers beat
> the expellees, who hit back. And this is police vs. police! *
>
> So what, Rabbi Wohlberg, do you have to say to that?! If that's what
> happens during a 'mock disturbance' between police, what do expect kids to
> do in a 'real' situation?!
>
> And of course, will you condemn the Arabs who tried to rape and murder two
> young Jewish women on Friday night in Hebron, Rabbi Wohlberg?
>
> I would like to now conclude with several comments:
>
>    1.  As I wrote in the Jerusalem Post:* *"It should be clear. Hebron's
> Jewish community opposes and rejects any and all violence aimed at innocent
> people, be they Arabs, Jews or anyone else." By the same token, we reject
> desecration of any kind by anyone.  We are not terrorists, Rabbi Wohlberg.
> We are Jews who love our country, our land and our people. And we live what
> we believe. Our lives are dedicated entirely to G-d, to the Jewish people
> and to Eretz Yisrael, and we do not, nor will we ever apologize for that.
>
>   2. Jews have not ever conducted 'pogroms' against anyone. You forgot, in
> your Shabbat spiel, to recall a true Hebron pogrom, which took place in
> August of 1929, when 67 Jews were murdered by Arab masses, with the
> survivors then expelled from the city of Abraham by the then occupying
> British. You also forgot to mention the war against the Jews, when Arabs
> shot at us for two years, killing scores, including a ten month old baby in
> Hebron proper.
>
>   3. I would like to see what you would do, Rabbi Wohlberg, when, due to
> growing anti-Semitism in the United States, one fine Saturday morning,
> masses of police, FBI, and other security troops show up outside your shul,
> while you are in the middle of a sermon, and start forcibly removing you and
> your congregation from you pulpit and your seats. Will you walk out like
> sheep on the way to the slaughter, or will you fight back, refusing to be
> treated like subhuman beings? After all, 'dina d'malchuta dina' ? right,
> Rabbi Wohlberg? If they want to expel you, they can ? that could be the law
> of the land, right, Rabbi Wohlberg?
>
> Don't think it couldn't happen. In Germany they didn't think it could
> happen. In Hungary, they didn't think it could happen. Ditto other countries
> in Europe.
>
> Rabbi Wohlberg, we will not be, here in Hebron or anywhere in Israel, sheep
> led to slaughter. We are being dealt with as 3rd class citizens with laws
> being circumvented and at best, rewritten, to deal with over 300,000 people,
> including 'settler fanatics' who live not only in 'occupied Hebron,' but in
> 'the occupied Jordon Valley' and the 'occupied Golan Heights.'
>
> Don't fool yourself or your congregation Rabbi. You too will be thought of,
> and dealt with, as 'occupiers' of downtown Baltimore. I suggest you stop
> breathing fire against kids, who despite their good intentions may have
> erred, and begin soul-searching yourself: who are you, what are you, and
> what do you really believe in? Because, judging from last week's sermon, the
> answer to these questions are very very unclear.
>
>
>
>    ***comments *
>
>
>
>
>
> *The Jewish Community of Hebron**
> *POB 105 , *Kiryat Arba-Hebron 90100              **hebron at hebron.org.il**
> *
> *Tour Hebron:** Tel 972-52-431-7055 or write:
> tour at hebron.com*
>
> *The Hebron Fund**
> *1760 Ocean Ave., Brooklyn, NY 11230
> *www.hebronfund.com  hebronfund at aol.com  *
> 718-677-6886
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 15:02:13 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:02:13 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Replace FEAR with PURPOSE
Message-ID: <855590370812211302s7e0b92b4q35fa320547c9ec55@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom L'Kulchem,

    In times like these, where everything seems to be going wrong, where the
economic foundations of the very world we've known seem about to collapse -
what are we to do?  It's scary, frightening and we seem to be facing total
uncertainty, in terms of what the government will do, or *can *do - no
matter whom we voted for. Well, we could turn this into an opportunity to do
Tshuva - to return to HaShem, and HIS Torah.  We can support more
organizations that need help - even if we can only give pennies a day.

    We could, and should, pray for divine guidance and strength to get
through what could conceivably be the most difficult times on earth.  NOW is
the time for women and men of faith to stand up, stand together, and
accomplish the will of our Creator.  Look to our purpose for being here,
today...and make plans to create a plan of action.  Push away the fear and
uncertainty....become an individual driven by purpose.

    Be strong and have courage, and may the light of the Hanuka candles
illuminate the path to take, to draw closer to HaShem.

    Hanuka Sameach,  and may we be as faithful and dedicated as the
Maccabees!

                    * Hanoch*
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From shdennis at rogers.com  Sun Dec 21 16:05:21 2008
From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:05:21 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Replace FEAR with PURPOSE
In-Reply-To: <855590370812211302s7e0b92b4q35fa320547c9ec55@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812211302s7e0b92b4q35fa320547c9ec55@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <269F3C16958C442B948BEDB5BC37D4AD@Beeblebrox>

Thank you, dear Hanoch, for these thoughts and words of encouragement.  Tshuva, righteous living, strength and courage are what we all seek, as HaShem allows situations on earth to bring about His redemption and Kingdom!  For such a time as this, with brothers and sisters as this, we enter into these dark days, thanking HaShem for the candles which illuminate our path.

Sharon
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Hanoch Young 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 5:02 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Replace FEAR with PURPOSE


  Shalom L'Kulchem,

      In times like these, where everything seems to be going wrong, where the economic foundations of the very world we've known seem about to collapse - what are we to do?  It's scary, frightening and we seem to be facing total uncertainty, in terms of what the government will do, or can do - no matter whom we voted for. Well, we could turn this into an opportunity to do Tshuva - to return to HaShem, and HIS Torah.  We can support more organizations that need help - even if we can only give pennies a day.  

      We could, and should, pray for divine guidance and strength to get through what could conceivably be the most difficult times on earth.  NOW is the time for women and men of faith to stand up, stand together, and accomplish the will of our Creator.  Look to our purpose for being here, today...and make plans to create a plan of action.  Push away the fear and uncertainty....become an individual driven by purpose.

      Be strong and have courage, and may the light of the Hanuka candles illuminate the path to take, to draw closer to HaShem.

      Hanuka Sameach,  and may we be as faithful and dedicated as the Maccabees!

                       Hanoch 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From calbfordham at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 20:45:15 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:45:15 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] United Israel Meeting in 2009
In-Reply-To: <557A54E5-37A4-4E26-A778-9FE1BB758EC5@earthlink.net>
References: <557A54E5-37A4-4E26-A778-9FE1BB758EC5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <c599cad60812211845o5cf2bae7l7c30896d09a26e40@mail.gmail.com>

Can't wait for this!  Doesn't seem like a year already!  We owe you and Ross
a donation for last year!  We will make sure we help out double this year!
See you there!  Chris and Amber Fordham

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 1:03 PM, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>wrote:

> I wanted to announce the dates for our 2009 United Israel annual meeting
> here in Charlotte: April 24-26.
>
> We will distribute the details of our plans and program early in the new
> year but hold the dates and make your plans to join us. We have some really
> special things in mind.
>
> James
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 21 21:15:14 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:15:14 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Samuele Bacchiocchi,
	expert on Bible Sabbath dies at 70
References: <4982536902F141B3BF9DBC00330BA8EE@OAK>
Message-ID: <708303D7-1871-42AB-9B78-60B6391F1FC5@earthlink.net>

A man I knew and admired for his research. I reference him in  
Restoring Abrahamic Faith, as some of you know.

James


> This is a WorldNetDaily printer-friendly version of the article  
> which follows.
> To view this item online, visit http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=84204
>
>
> Sunday, December 21, 2008
>
> WorldNetDaily Exclusive
> Expert on Bible, Sabbath dies at 70
> Samuele Bacchiocchi best known for explaining shift toward Sunday  
> worship
> Posted: December 21, 2008
> 12:49 pm Eastern
>
>
> WorldNetDaily
>
>
> Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi
>
> Biblical scholar Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, best known for his  
> teachings on how Sabbath observance shifted toward Sunday worship in  
> much of Christendom, died yesterday at his Michigan home at the age  
> of 70 after a two-year battle with fourth-stage liver cancer.
>
> The retired theology professor from Andrews University in Berrien  
> Springs, Mich., passed away shortly after midnight Saturday,  
> surrounded by his three children and wife, who would have marked  
> their 47th wedding anniversary today.
>
> "We are very grateful that we could all be together at this time and  
> believe that it is fitting that God chose the Sabbath day, the day  
> that he loved most and spent his life preaching and writing about,  
> to be the day that he entered into his final earthly rest," his  
> family said. "We take comfort in the fact that the next time he will  
> open his eyes he will see his Lord and Savior, and that we will be  
> reunited with him in heaven. His incredible journey here on earth  
> has come to an end, but may we continue his legacy until Jesus  
> returns!"
>
> (Story continues below)
>
>
> Family members read together what are believed to be some of the  
> apostle Paul's final words: "For I am already being poured out like  
> a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. I have  
> fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the  
> faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness,  
> which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day ?  
> and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his  
> appearing." (2 Timothy 4:6-8)
>
> "This quote sums up the life of a man who sacrificed practically all  
> of his time and energy to help others understand the Bible more  
> fully, even up to end as he gave his last seminar in England the  
> Sabbath before being taken to the emergency room," they said.
>
> Bacchiocchi earned his doctorate in Church History at the Pontifical  
> Gregorian University in Rome and was awarded a gold medal by Pope  
> Paul VI for his summa cum laude class work and dissertation, "From  
> Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday  
> Observance in Early Christianity."
>
> A Seventh-Day Adventist, Bacchiocchi believed there was no  
> Scriptural mandate to change or eliminate Sabbath-keeping, and he  
> singled out the Catholic Church for its role in changing the day.
>
> "The Church of the capital of the empire, whose authority was  
> already felt far and wide in the second century, appears to be the  
> most likely birthplace of Sunday observance," he wrote.
>
> Bacchiocchi previously told WND: "Anti-Judaism caused the  
> abandonment of the Sabbath, and pagan sun worship influenced the  
> adoption of Sunday."
>
> He said evidence of anti-Judaism is found in the writings of  
> Christian leaders such as Ignatius, Barnabas and Justin in the  
> second century. He noted these three "witnessed and participated in  
> the process of separation from Judaism which led the majority of the  
> Christians to abandon the Sabbath and adopt Sunday as the new day of  
> worship."
>
> Bacchiocchi also explained the influence of pagan sun worship  
> provides a "plausible explanation for the Christian choice of  
> Sunday" over the day of Saturn. Its effect wasn't just limited to  
> Sunday. It apparently led to the placement of Jesus' birth in late  
> December.
>
> "The adoption of the 25th of December for the celebration of  
> Christmas is perhaps the most explicit example of sun worship's  
> influence on the Christian liturgical calendar," Bacchiocchi wrote.  
> "It is a known fact that the pagan feast of the Dies Natalis Solis  
> Invicti ? the birthday of the Invincible Sun, was held on that date."
>
> Funeral services will be held Saturday, Dec. 27, at 4:00 pm at the  
> Pioneer Memorial Church on the campus of Andrews University.
>
> Note: The Bacchiocchi Family has provided e-mail addresses of the  
> professor's children for personal messages: Loretta Bacchiocchi,  
> Gianlucca Bacchiocchi or Daniel Bacchiocchi.
>
>
>
> Special offers:
>
> "From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of  
> Sunday Observance in Early Christianity"
>
> "Shocked by the Bible: The Most Astonishing Facts You've Never Been  
> Told" personally autographed!
>
> Bible comes alive: Entire New Testament on video!
>
> Does science back up Jesus' resurrection?
>
> History of the World: Not the phony stuff you've been taught
>
> Chart the world's history all the way back to Adam and Eve
>
> Significant moments in Christian history
>
> What happened in the First Six Days?
>
> DVD: The Forbidden Book: The History of the English Bible
>
> Geneva Bible of 1599
>
> King James Giant Print Reference Bible
>
> Previous stories:
>
> 'Deception': Christians war over worship day
>
> Anti-Judaism at root of 'Sunday Sabbath'?
>
> Sunday, holy Sunday? Pastor resurrects Sabbath debate with $1  
> million reward
>
> Basketball champs refuse to play on Sabbath
>
> Sabbath-breaking 'caused tsunami'
>
> Israel's airline to fly on the Sabbath?
>
> Religious players win Sabbath case
>
> Christmas in America becomes battleground
>
> Flood of claims for 'Noah's Ark'
>
> Pharaoh's chariots found in Red Sea?
>

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 04:25:51 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:25:51 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Chanukah & Geula
Message-ID: <855590370812220225x5bcb6341j402a5216673d76e7@mail.gmail.com>

    Home <http://www.breslev.co.il/default.aspx?language=english>Editorials<http://www.breslev.co.il/subcategories/editorials.aspx?category=213&pageid=1&language=english>Chanukah
and Geula     [image: Chanukah and Geula]
By: Rabbi Lazer
Brody<http://www.breslev.co.il/searchresults.aspx?text=rabbi+lazer+brody&type=1&fullType=authors&language=English>
  [image: Email This Article]  [image: Print version]

*The editorial page of Breslev Israel's English website*

One candle is enough to illuminate the pitch-black darkness. King Solomon
compared the candle to the human soul. Thus, the Chanuka candles can teach
us a lot about our inner selves.

Despair and depression are darkness. Judaism - particularly the Chanuka
holiday - teaches that there is no room for despair and depression in the
Jewish lexicon. There's always hope. The Gemara teaches that even if a sharp
knife is resting on your throat, don't despair - trust in Hashem's
magnificent and merciful lovingkindness.

The *Yetzer Hora, or Evil Inclination, wants you to lose hope. He doesn't
want you to believe that redemption can be right now, at any minute, and
that Moshiach is right around the corner. By convincing you that the Jewish
notion of eagerly anticipating the Geula is false and ridiculous, he
eventually convinces you that all of Torah is false and ridiculous, G-d
forbid.*

On the contrary, when a doctor tells an expectant mother that she must
abort, that's false and ridiculous. When a person is told that he or she has
a terminal disease, that's false and ridiculous.

The light of a Chanuka candle - which the holy Ariza'l says is symbolic of
emuna, or faith - carries a person above the clutches of nature. Torah,
Teshuva, and prayer do the same. A soldier can be pinned down, with no
logical way out; yet, Hashem has solutions. Never despair, or the ballgame's
over. Put your gin and tonic down, and pick up a Book of Psalms. Let the
light of King David's eternal and universal words light up your soul.

Many of us are scarred from life in this cold and empty world, where few
care about nothing other than a greenback or their next cheap thrill. Yet,
if a wounded soldier stops shooting, he's finished; if he transfers his
rifle from his wounded right arm to his healthy left arm, he can continue
fighting and ultimately triumph.

Be happy! Put your favorite Chassidic CD in the stereo and dance a *kazatzke
* with your family. It's great exercise ? *heimishe* aerobics ? and it will
put a smile on your face. Eat some latkes and play draidel with your
children. Don't succumb to depression; depression won't put money in the
bank - faith in Hashem will! Let Chanuka brighten your life.

Don't be discouraged by anything. Remember that Hashem runs the world and
that He's doing everything for the very best and for a good reason. It's of
no consequence whether or not we understand what our beloved Father in
Heaven is doing or how He's running the world.

Chin up, *chabibi*! If you don't surrender to the Yetzer, you might be the
person that changes the world, like
Yehudit<http://www.chabad.org/holidays/chanukah/article.asp?AID=103019>did.
Light your candles and ponder them; open up your soul to Hashem's
light. Once you really do, you'll be healthy and happy, and you won't need
the shrink or his nasty little pills any more.

Our sages teach that as long as the candle is burning, there's always hope.
Never despair, no matter what your seemingly insurmountable problem is.
Rebbe Nachman of Breslev says, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? - everything could
turn itself around completely for the better in the nearest future. Just
like the few Maccabees who remained faithful to Hashem and to His Torah, you
might be outnumbered by a massive enemy too. But, if you learn from those
little flickering Chanuka candles that defeat the darkness, you'll be a
winner too. Jews are used to being the underdogs - we thrive on
come-from-behind and against-all-odds victories and watching the tyrants of
the world crumble.

The Jewish people are sometimes down, but never out. The tiny flames of
Chanuka always lift us out of the dark abyss.

Don't despair. Don't ever lose faith. Salvation is on the way, for sure.

Happy Chanuka.


(We invite you to visit Rabbi Lazer Brody's award-winning daily web journal,
"Lazer Beams <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/>")
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Mon Dec 22 05:41:27 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:41:27 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG CHANNUKAH SAMEACH
Message-ID: <494F7CE7.2000301@westnet.com.au>

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From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Dec 22 07:39:45 2008
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 05:39:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: [UILIST] Update on Rudy and Linda
Message-ID: <138326.83635.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

From: Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [UILIST] Update on Rudy and Linda
To: uilist at unitedisrael.org, dialogue at roots.yahoo.com
Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 8:37 AM







Dear All:
?
Linda just called to say that Rudy's surgery had to be cancelled for today. He had diarrhea last nght and vomiting. If no infection is found, they will schedule him for tomorrow. Linda was given a bed in the same room with Rudy so she was right there with him. Of course, she got little sleep and that seems to have been the case all along, so please pray for her to be able to get enough rest as she runs back and forth from home for changes of clothes and trying to keep everything else going as she spends as much time with Rudy as possible.
?
Thanks and kind regard,
?
Helen_______________________________________________
UILIST mailing list
UILIST at unitedisrael.org

**** This is a private list. 
**** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list 
**** without permission from the person who wrote it.
**** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * 
************************************************ 
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 11:49:46 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:49:46 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Preparing' for more rockets
Message-ID: <855590370812220949n5be4834cod773db16af2d0b5e@mail.gmail.com>

Wouldn't a NORMAL country destroy the enemy instead of accepting the fact
that more Israeli cities are about to be bombed?  The US brought the world
to the brink of nuclear war during the Cuban missile crisis, because there
were Soviet missiles 90 miles from Florida.  No American city was attacked,
but they were prepared to go to war....

 But what about Israel?  Could America be holding the *leash *THAT tight??
What ARE we waiting for??
                *  Hanoch*
   <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>  Daily Israel Report
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Be'er Sheva Mayor Preparing for Rockets Kislev 25, 5769, 22 December 08
11:05
by by Hana Levi Julian

(IsraelNN.com) The mayor of  Be'er Sheva, known as the "Capital of the
Negev," says his municipality has begun to make preparations for the
possibility that rockets from Gaza may rain down upon its residents.

Mayor Rubick Danielovitz made the remark Sunday after Israel Security Agency
(Shin Bet) chief Yuval Diskin notified ministers at the weekly Cabinet
meeting that the Hamas terrorists now possess rockets capable of reaching
Be'er Sheva.

Danielovitz said the city currently has 250 public shelters, which it is
preparing to serve its 200,000 residents, and will also be connected to the
Color Red incoming missile alert system.

"In recent years, with the assistance of Home Front Command and funding also
from the municipality, we renovated most of the shelters," he noted in an
interview with the Hebrew-language *Ha'aretz *newspaper.

Until now, the terrorist organization has employed short-range homemade
Kassam rockets to reach nearby communities such as Sderot and others in the
Gaza Belt region. They also use medium-range Grad-type Katyusha rockets,
similar to the ones used by Hizbullah terrorists during the Second Lebanon
War, to attack longer-range targets such as the port city of Ashkelon.

The coastal city of Ashdod ? the second-largest port in Israel, as well as
the communities of Yavne and Gedera, were also notified that they are now
within striking range of Hamas missiles as well.

Yavne Mayor Zvi Gov Ari said the primary problem in his community is not the
number of shelters available, but how long it will take residents to get to
them. "We will have to practice it," he said. "To date, no guidelines have
been received from Home Front Command on the level of risk faced by our
city."

Home Front Command has recommended that all communities within a
40-kilometer range of Gaza be hooked up to the Color Red incoming missile
alert system.

*Ashkelon Mayor Threatens School Strike Over Rocket Attacks*
Ashkelon Mayor Benny Vaknin warned Sunday that he will close the city's
schools if there is another Grad rocket attack by Gaza terrorists on his
city.

Vaknin made the statement after the port city was struck by a barrage of the
medium-range rockets.

"It can't be that today, when the alarm sounds in Ashkelon, 30,000 students
have to hide under their desks and look for protection," he said.

The mayor added that his city would work diligently during the Chanukah
vacation to formulate a plan of action to deal with the threat.

In Sderot schools, all outdoor Chanukah activities were canceled Monday and
residents were ordered to keep their children indoors.
 www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
(c) Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Dec 23 00:29:08 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:29:08 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] LIVING WITH FEAR.
Message-ID: <49508534.7060704@westnet.com.au>

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Dec 23 00:53:36 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 00:53:36 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG CHANNUKAH SAMEACH
In-Reply-To: <494F7CE7.2000301@westnet.com.au>
References: <494F7CE7.2000301@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <FD0B0B1717B943C780554B6C5195C93D@bettylaptop>

Toda rabba, Joe for that beautiful greeting!  May each light each night
increase the light in the world, and may it multiply our joy and our belief
that the miracles of old will again be repeated in our day.  I love the oil
lamps!

 

Have a blessed holiday you and Heidi and all,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 5:41 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG CHANNUKAH SAMEACH

 

                              

                                                      CHAG CHANNUKAH SAMEACH

                                  

                                                      May HaSHEM increase
your light
                                                                   Joe &
Heidi.
 
http://thereisone.com/chanu.htm

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Dec 23 01:04:20 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 01:04:20 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Replace FEAR with PURPOSE
In-Reply-To: <269F3C16958C442B948BEDB5BC37D4AD@Beeblebrox>
References: <855590370812211302s7e0b92b4q35fa320547c9ec55@mail.gmail.com>
	<269F3C16958C442B948BEDB5BC37D4AD@Beeblebrox>
Message-ID: <B32F8F01E8184E2E99FC72AC9C125841@bettylaptop>

Yes, thank you, Hanoch, for sharing these words of encouragement which are
much needed in our day and at this season, and thank you, Sharon, for your
reply.

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 4:05 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Replace FEAR with PURPOSE

 

Thank you, dear Hanoch, for these thoughts and words of encouragement.
Tshuva, righteous living, strength and courage are what we all seek, as
HaShem allows situations on earth to bring about His redemption and Kingdom!
For such a time as this, with brothers and sisters as this, we enter into
these dark days, thanking HaShem for the candles which illuminate our path.

 

Sharon

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Hanoch Young <mailto:youngbarzel at gmail.com>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 5:02 PM

Subject: [Dialogue] Replace FEAR with PURPOSE

 

Shalom L'Kulchem,

    In times like these, where everything seems to be going wrong, where the
economic foundations of the very world we've known seem about to collapse -
what are we to do?  It's scary, frightening and we seem to be facing total
uncertainty, in terms of what the government will do, or can do - no matter
whom we voted for. Well, we could turn this into an opportunity to do Tshuva
- to return to HaShem, and HIS Torah.  We can support more organizations
that need help - even if we can only give pennies a day.  

    We could, and should, pray for divine guidance and strength to get
through what could conceivably be the most difficult times on earth.  NOW is
the time for women and men of faith to stand up, stand together, and
accomplish the will of our Creator.  Look to our purpose for being here,
today...and make plans to create a plan of action.  Push away the fear and
uncertainty....become an individual driven by purpose.

    Be strong and have courage, and may the light of the Hanuka candles
illuminate the path to take, to draw closer to HaShem.

    Hanuka Sameach,  and may we be as faithful and dedicated as the
Maccabees!

                     Hanoch 


  _____  


_______________________________________________

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Dec 23 04:54:59 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:54:59 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] WINDS OF CHANGE.
Message-ID: <4950C383.3000500@westnet.com.au>

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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue Dec 23 06:37:45 2008
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:37:45 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Preparing' for more rockets
In-Reply-To: <855590370812220949n5be4834cod773db16af2d0b5e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812220949n5be4834cod773db16af2d0b5e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012701c964fb$42c2c780$0400a8c0@marvin>

Hanoch... What ARE we(Israel) waiting for?   Why will Israel not stand up
for itself?   Why are their preparations..  running and hiding, cowarding in
holes waiting to be dragged out?  Have they learned nothing since Hitler?
Is their some great mitzvah in being lead to your death like sheep?  If they
truly believe that..   then why not just stand out in the open street and
face their enemy face to face?   Believe me Hanoch,   I am on your side but
for the life of me, I cannot understand why the people of Israel and the
government will not stand up for their own safety.    Just like with the
house in Hebron...  if they believe so much in what they were doing then why
did they not fight to keep the house.  Let the soldiers and police know if
you come you will die...  you may kill us but you will not take us out
alive.   Are their no people in the land with the spirit of the Maccabees?
Maybe I'm to radical or simplistic .. maybe I understand nothing..  but if
all you can do is sit in.. write letters and get haul off..   why not just
stay home.

 

If I truly believe what I believe..   and I do believe, I  truly believe....
When I see the government come to my town( In America) and start hauling the
Jews away like happened in Germany what course of action should I take...
do I hold a sit in...  do I have a letter writing campaign or do I act like
"The Hammer" and fight for Israel?  But, then again... maybe the correct
thing to do is help the child of Israel onto the bus which will take them to
the plane to deport them back to their land.

 

Maybe, the generation we are in is like the generation in the wilderness,
and as soon as the older generation dies off then this younger generation
that is coming up now will believe Hashem at his word and fight to retake
the land and KEEP it.

 

I can understand the different view points in the Jewish community..  1)
lets go to the land and resettle it. 2) lets stay in New York, New
Jersieeee, and Sunny Florida and beautiful Californacation and when Mosiach
comes and makes everything nice and confeee we will go home.    Maybe,
Madoff is working with Hashem to remove some of the comfort!?.   Maybe, what
must happen is like in Egypt..  after all the plagues, after all the
"hardening of the Heart of Pharaoh"   the people of the land(Egypt)
expelled, threw out, ran off, told to leave, get out now, before we are all
dead...  the children of Israel and the mixed multitude that wanted to leave
with them.

 

I get personally frustrated reading / watching the news and seeing Israel
letting themselves be treated the way they are in their own land and not do
anything to stop it.  How many times would / should a person let the
neighbor across the street attack them?  After repeated calls to the
authorities with no response, the attacks still keep coming..  Not only in
the dark of night but now in broad daylight...   should we keep calling the
police...  should we have a letter writing campaign...  should we love our
neighbor and bake them a pie and take to them..  Should we move out of the
neighbor hood and let them have it...   Maybe we should just coward in our
basements like mice instead of men and pray for them?       The other day I
sent a picture of senseless waste from an attack in Sedrot..   I guess no
one got it!!!!  (the humor)

 

Marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 12:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Preparing' for more rockets

 

Wouldn't a NORMAL country destroy the enemy instead of accepting the fact
that more Israeli cities are about to be bombed?  The US brought the world
to the brink of nuclear war during the Cuban missile crisis, because there
were Soviet missiles 90 miles from Florida.  No American city was attacked,
but they were prepared to go to war....

 But what about Israel?  Could America be holding the leash THAT tight??
What ARE we waiting for??

                  Hanoch


 <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> 

 

Daily Israel Report
 <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe> Subscribe (free) 


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Be'er Sheva Mayor Preparing for Rockets


Kislev 25, 5769, 22 December 08 11:05

by by Hana Levi Julian

(IsraelNN.com) The mayor of  Be'er Sheva, known as the "Capital of the
Negev," says his municipality has begun to make preparations for the
possibility that rockets from Gaza may rain down upon its residents.

Mayor Rubick Danielovitz made the remark Sunday after Israel Security Agency
(Shin Bet) chief Yuval Diskin notified ministers at the weekly Cabinet
meeting that the Hamas terrorists now possess rockets capable of reaching
Be'er Sheva. 

Danielovitz said the city currently has 250 public shelters, which it is
preparing to serve its 200,000 residents, and will also be connected to the
Color Red incoming missile alert system.

"In recent years, with the assistance of Home Front Command and funding also
from the municipality, we renovated most of the shelters," he noted in an
interview with the Hebrew-language Ha'aretz newspaper.

Until now, the terrorist organization has employed short-range homemade
Kassam rockets to reach nearby communities such as Sderot and others in the
Gaza Belt region. They also use medium-range Grad-type Katyusha rockets,
similar to the ones used by Hizbullah terrorists during the Second Lebanon
War, to attack longer-range targets such as the port city of Ashkelon.

The coastal city of Ashdod - the second-largest port in Israel, as well as
the communities of Yavne and Gedera, were also notified that they are now
within striking range of Hamas missiles as well. 

Yavne Mayor Zvi Gov Ari said the primary problem in his community is not the
number of shelters available, but how long it will take residents to get to
them. "We will have to practice it," he said. "To date, no guidelines have
been received from Home Front Command on the level of risk faced by our
city."

Home Front Command has recommended that all communities within a
40-kilometer range of Gaza be hooked up to the Color Red incoming missile
alert system.

Ashkelon Mayor Threatens School Strike Over Rocket Attacks
Ashkelon Mayor Benny Vaknin warned Sunday that he will close the city's
schools if there is another Grad rocket attack by Gaza terrorists on his
city.

Vaknin made the statement after the port city was struck by a barrage of the
medium-range rockets.

"It can't be that today, when the alarm sounds in Ashkelon, 30,000 students
have to hide under their desks and look for protection," he said. 

The mayor added that his city would work diligently during the Chanukah
vacation to formulate a plan of action to deal with the threat.

In Sderot schools, all outdoor Chanukah activities were canceled Monday and
residents were ordered to keep their children indoors.

www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> 

C Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com

Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Dec 23 15:10:01 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:10:01 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Preparing' for more rockets
In-Reply-To: <855590370812220949n5be4834cod773db16af2d0b5e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812220949n5be4834cod773db16af2d0b5e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <69C85BA1433B4249A06F069893D6EB7C@bettylaptop>

Don't know.just don't understand.very perplexing and confusing!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:50 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Preparing' for more rockets

 

Wouldn't a NORMAL country destroy the enemy instead of accepting the fact
that more Israeli cities are about to be bombed?  The US brought the world
to the brink of nuclear war during the Cuban missile crisis, because there
were Soviet missiles 90 miles from Florida.  No American city was attacked,
but they were prepared to go to war....

 But what about Israel?  Could America be holding the leash THAT tight??
What ARE we waiting for??

                  Hanoch


 <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> 

 

Daily Israel Report
 <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe> Subscribe (free) 


 <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> Home

News <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> 

News Briefs <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/AllFlashes.aspx> 

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Be'er Sheva Mayor Preparing for Rockets


Kislev 25, 5769, 22 December 08 11:05

by by Hana Levi Julian

(IsraelNN.com) The mayor of  Be'er Sheva, known as the "Capital of the
Negev," says his municipality has begun to make preparations for the
possibility that rockets from Gaza may rain down upon its residents.

Mayor Rubick Danielovitz made the remark Sunday after Israel Security Agency
(Shin Bet) chief Yuval Diskin notified ministers at the weekly Cabinet
meeting that the Hamas terrorists now possess rockets capable of reaching
Be'er Sheva. 

Danielovitz said the city currently has 250 public shelters, which it is
preparing to serve its 200,000 residents, and will also be connected to the
Color Red incoming missile alert system.

"In recent years, with the assistance of Home Front Command and funding also
from the municipality, we renovated most of the shelters," he noted in an
interview with the Hebrew-language Ha'aretz newspaper.

Until now, the terrorist organization has employed short-range homemade
Kassam rockets to reach nearby communities such as Sderot and others in the
Gaza Belt region. They also use medium-range Grad-type Katyusha rockets,
similar to the ones used by Hizbullah terrorists during the Second Lebanon
War, to attack longer-range targets such as the port city of Ashkelon.

The coastal city of Ashdod - the second-largest port in Israel, as well as
the communities of Yavne and Gedera, were also notified that they are now
within striking range of Hamas missiles as well. 

Yavne Mayor Zvi Gov Ari said the primary problem in his community is not the
number of shelters available, but how long it will take residents to get to
them. "We will have to practice it," he said. "To date, no guidelines have
been received from Home Front Command on the level of risk faced by our
city."

Home Front Command has recommended that all communities within a
40-kilometer range of Gaza be hooked up to the Color Red incoming missile
alert system.

Ashkelon Mayor Threatens School Strike Over Rocket Attacks
Ashkelon Mayor Benny Vaknin warned Sunday that he will close the city's
schools if there is another Grad rocket attack by Gaza terrorists on his
city.

Vaknin made the statement after the port city was struck by a barrage of the
medium-range rockets.

"It can't be that today, when the alarm sounds in Ashkelon, 30,000 students
have to hide under their desks and look for protection," he said. 

The mayor added that his city would work diligently during the Chanukah
vacation to formulate a plan of action to deal with the threat.

In Sderot schools, all outdoor Chanukah activities were canceled Monday and
residents were ordered to keep their children indoors.

www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/> 

C Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com

Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Dec 23 15:17:00 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 07:17:00 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Fw: [UILIST] Update on Rudy and Linda]
Message-ID: <4951554C.3020104@westnet.com.au>

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From: Helen Lusk <j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: [UILIST] Update on Rudy and Linda
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 05:39:45 -0800 (PST)
Size: 7258
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Dec 23 15:31:52 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:31:52 -0600
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Fw: [UILIST] Update on Rudy and Linda]
In-Reply-To: <4951554C.3020104@westnet.com.au>
References: <4951554C.3020104@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <75E03859AEB6408A818029EEF1119C5B@bettylaptop>

Absolutely!  Thank you, Helen for keeping us informed and thank you Joe for
your lovely remarks.  We look forward to hearing good news regarding Rudy's
surgery.Yes, as we recite the bracha of the lighting of the Hanukkah
candles, let us remember Rudy and of course others that HaShem brings to our
mind.this is a wonderful time for miracles.present day ones, as we remember
the miracles of old!

 

Hanukkah Sameach to all!

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 3:17 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Fw: [UILIST] Update on Rudy and Linda]

 

Shalom Helen,

todah rabbah for keeping us informed about Rudi. The news is very disturbing
as we pray for his recovery.

Have they been able to operate yet ?

May I propose to those who light Chanukah candles that they keep Rudi in
their prayers as they recite the bracha of the lighting of the candles.

Let us also keep Linda and the family in our thoughts and prayers.

May HaShem shower this family with Rachamim.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Dec 23 15:54:06 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:54:06 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Simplicity of the Menorah amidst the dazzle of Christmas
	surrrounding all of us!
Message-ID: <C44B7BC0E2CE47B3AB7B341A377AA5AC@bettylaptop>

Friends, I found this story on Aish.com and it so spoke to my heart.it
speaks about the little lights of the Menorah in the window in the midst of
all the Christmas dazzling lights in the surrounding houses in the
neighborhood.  The little girl begins with a question (so typical of
Judaism) and the mother and children end up going on a Menorah Hunt.the end
result is a beautiful lesson.  I hope you will read and enjoy it as much as
I did!

Hanukkah Sameach!

Elisheva/Betty

The fourth night of Chanukah, my husband is late for the candle lighting. My
children's unlit clay menorahs are positioned precariously on the radiator.
My second daughter, Elana, stares across the street at the neighbor's lawn.
The Healys have draped their cedar tree with electric blue lights. 

Next door, a deer stands poised with one hoof lifted prettily, as if about
to break into a prance. Nearby, a bloated, inflated snowman sways drunkenly
in the night air. My six-year-old daughter chews on the end of her plastic
dreidel. A wistful look crosses her face. "Why can't we have decorations
like that?" she asks. 





"Why can't we have decorations like that?" 






I remind her how we go all out on Sukkot. We have fancy lights, murals
painted on the walls, and assorted fruit and tchotchkes hanging from the
rafters of our Sukkah. But on Chanukah, I tell her, the menorah is all we've
got. 

"Can't we have something big?" she begs. "Something pretty, maybe a lamb or
a sheep?" 

Oh great, I think: a paschal lamb on our porch. But that's the wrong
holiday. I gaze down at our rickety display of homemade menorahs. I know
they can't compete with Mrs. Healy's Christmas tree, the dazzling strings of
light and the candy canes and wreaths dangling from telephone poles, not to
mention jolly Ole Santa and all the treats in his mysterious fat bag. I
guess my daughter wants a swankier holiday. 

Across the street, I see a family at the window putting a match to their oil
menorah. I look at my watch. Its time to light, but my husband won't be home
for a good half hour. 

"Come on, kids," I suddenly decide. "Let's go on a menorah hunt." 

The kids are game. We pack into our minivan. "Fifty menorahs," I say. "After
we find 50 lit menorahs, we go home to light our own." There. That'll pass
the time. 

They press their faces to the window. "There's one," my daughter Elana
points. My son easily spots another two. "I see it, I see it," my youngest
one crows, waving her fist. The numbers quickly add up. No surprise there.
We live in a Jewish neighborhood in New Jersey. My son hits the jackpot with
five menorah houses, back to back, belly to belly. 

"This is too easy," he scoffs. I think he's right, and I make a left and a
right, and go on a long stretch that turns into a different, more ritzy --
dare I say WASPy -- neighborhood. Here, electric lights blaze forth from
every house. Multicolored reindeers poke their hooves into well-tended
zoysia grass. There are elves or maybe fawns lurking near Holly bushes, and
Santas and sleighs clumped around rhododendrons. There are unusual shadow
and light displays; some are actually artistic. My kids grow silent at all
the holiday splendor. 

"Where are all the menorahs?" my son wonders out loud. 

"So many Santas," Elana observes. I wonder when it was she stopped calling
Santa the big red Zeide. 

"Keep looking," I say tersely. I turn left, then right. 

Aren't I setting up the kids for disappointment? Christmas is everywhere.
They're at the age when they're starting to realize how few of us we are.
And in fact, my older daughter says, "How come there's so little of us?" 

"Yes, we're little," I agree. "So what? Chanukah celebrates the victory of
the few over the many. The few are also strong." 

But my daughter, steeped in a Jewish education, counters, "God said we'd be
many. 'You shall be as numerous as the stars of the heaven,'" she quotes. 

Suddenly Elana shouts, "I see a menorah!" Our heads turn. "Where, where?"
and she points proudly. There indeed it is, sitting in the window of what
looks to be someone's kitchen. On either side of the house is a fantastic
network of lights and sleighs and an illuminated nativity scene. And in
between sits a dignified little menorah on a Jewish window sill. Feeling
like the Maccabees who found that one last vial of oil to light the menorah,
we all whoop and cheer. 

As we make our way back home, we spot another two menorahs, each one a
victory. In our own neighborhood, we easily pick up six houses here, seven
houses there, surpassing the number of 50 by the time we arrive home. 

When we come inside, my husband is pouring olive oil into glass cups. The
breakable colored candles have been twisted into the kids' clay menorahs. We
make the blessings, sing a little, dance a little and then the kids
disperse. I linger in front of our homemade display and then I remember a
custom. The old Hasidic masters used to sit and gaze at the lit candles for
a full half hour, even more. They say that staring at the candles expands a
person's vision; how the eyes see the world, what they regard as beautiful. 

I sit now on the couch and try to keep my gaze on the lights. It's amazing
to me how dreidels and sufganiot and potato latkes can keep my kids happily
occupied. It feels restful here, watching. While the candles burn, women
aren't supposed to be working anyway, to honor the extra role women had in
the miracle of Chanukah. I let my eyes take their fill while my husband
fries more latkes. 

Elana wanders over to the radiator and looks across the street at the
neighbor's fancy holiday decorations. 

I say to her in a quiet voice, "Look at our candles, look closely and tell
me what you see." 





The world tries to grab you with its fancy big lights. But the light of the
menorah is subtle and gradually envelops you. 






She stares for a long time, her big brown eyes grave and finally tells me.
"The flames are shaped like arrows, they point upward, there's a dark blue
in the center, the flames keep moving here and there but are held in place
by the wick, they're tiny and they're beautiful to look at." Then she adds,
"The flames are arrows pointing to heaven." 

The image delights me, and she seems pleased, too, but then I see her eyes
return to the window, to the pretty lights across the street. 

I want to tell my daughter how the world tries to grab you with its fancy
big lights. They are powerful, and they'll dazzle you for sure. But the
light of the menorah is subtle, it gradually envelops you, and the more you
look at it, its inner loveliness will sneak up and take your soul by
surprise. That's what I want to say, but why say anything? She's only six. 

She'll find out. "The fact is, Christmas lights are pretty," I say out loud.


She nods, taking in my words, relieved, it seems, that I agree with her. 

My husband likes to say about fireworks that no matter how spectacular, you
can't look at the show for more than an hour. At a certain point the
fireworks seem gaudy, a little much for the eyes. But you never get tired of
gazing at the stars. 

My daughter yawns and I pat the space on the couch beside me. I realize I
have let my eyes drift away from the candles. "Come back, let's look at the
menorah," I say. She curves in next to me, her eyes tired and a little
dreamy, while my own eyes blink and strain to see what she saw, little
arrows of light pointing to the sky. 

This article originally appeared in World Jewish Digest 2007.

 
<http://www.facebook.com/share.php?u=/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Chanukah_Ey
es.asp> Add to Facebook

Published: Sunday, December 21, 2008

 

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Dec 23 18:01:17 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:01:17 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Simplicity of the Menorah amidst the dazzle of
	Christmas surrrounding all of us!]
Message-ID: <49517BCD.7020702@westnet.com.au>

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From: "Betty Givin" <bkgivin at charter.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] Simplicity of the Menorah amidst the dazzle of Christmas
	surrrounding all of us!
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:54:06 -0600
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue Dec 23 19:07:11 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:07:11 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Preparing' for more rockets]
Message-ID: <49518B3F.6070209@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: RE: [Dialogue] 'Preparing' for more rockets
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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Dec 23 21:09:00 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:09:00 -0600
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Simplicity of the Menorah amidst the dazzle
	ofChristmas surrrounding all of us!]
In-Reply-To: <49517BCD.7020702@westnet.com.au>
References: <49517BCD.7020702@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <43E5DDE5AF5748CDB684B5A73D7C91C4@bettylaptop>

Joe, thank you so much for sharing these profound experiences with us!  I
love the daydream or the waking vision you experienced about the lights, and
can well understand how it has stayed with you all these years.  It does
portray so vividly the story of Hanukkah and the lights. I am sitting here
looking into the flames of the lights I just kindled and their reflection in
my front window.  Yes, they are small and seemingly insignificant, as they
are surrounded by the dazzle of Christmas lights across the street and on
both sides of our house and down the street; but if as in your story, all
the other lights were extinguished, they would indeed be visible.  To me,
that is what we are called to be, little lamps of HaShem trying to light up
the darkness, increasing day by day.

 

Your account of your brit milah and the timing of it was indeed moving.  I
will be praying with you as you contemplate the possibility of full orthodox
conversion.  May HaShem reveal to you His perfect will and may this Hanukkah
be a memorial one for you.  We have had several very moving experiences in
our family during the Hanukkah season in years past as well that has caused
me to love and appreciate the simplicity of just lighting the candles and
all they represent.thoughts are flooding my mind this evening as I
contemplate the miracles in ancient days and in our day!  Chazak, chazak,
venit chazak ( Be strong, be strong, be very strong!)

 

Like the little girl in the Aish story I sent, I can see that the candles do
look like arrows.pointing straight up to heaven!

 

Hanukkah Sameach to you and Heidi and all,

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 6:01 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Simplicity of the Menorah amidst the dazzle
ofChristmas surrrounding all of us!]

 

Shalom Elisheva,

todah rabbah for this touching article from Aish. How apt that this year
Chanukah and Christmas coincide.

It brings forth this competitive spirit of Yavan ( Greece ) and the humble
yet zealous spirit of Yacov ( Maccabees ).

I would like to share a profound moment that I experienced some 10 years ago
whilst I was engaged as a project architect on an office renovation in
Ipswich which is a 90 minute drive west of the Gold Coast. My client was an
elderly Jewish man who came to Australia in 1937. His mother was able to get
him out of Poland just in the nick of time. His entire extended family
except for a solitary cousin perished in the Shoah. Needless to say we
forged a very strong friendship which blossomed after our business
association came to an end. We just celebrated his 92nd birthday together
with his gracious wife Rae. My wife Heidi absolutely adores this family.

Back to my experience. This project was one of the most surreal that I have
ever encountered. During the external painting of the building two of my
painting contractors fell 7 floors from a swinging stage......... 24 metres
(72 feet) and survived !!!!
One of them walked out of hospital that night...... black and blue and dosed
up on Pethadeine but alive. The other was in an induced coma for three days
but miraculously awoke unaided to live another day. He sustained massive
head injuries and a shattered knee. Baruch HaShem he is back to living a
normal life.
I have a Jewish female friend, Libi who owns a sandstone quarry nearby. She
exports Helidon sandstone to south east Asia.
You would not believe this but on exactly the same day two of her stone
masons fell 7 floors on a building site in Kuala Lumpar, Malaysia. Both
survived. 

With this backdrop I will continue my story.

Every day during the project I would like to go to a picturesque rotunda
(gazebo) like you see in the English movies, to have a lunch break where I
would like to chill out and gather my thoughts. This rotunda was perched on
a hill overlooking Ipswich. It was called "The Lion's Lookout", much to my
amazement.

I often read the scriptures and contemplated during this break. I have a
tendency to be a bit of a day dreamer during moments like these.

One time as I day dreamed I heard a little voice inside of me asking me
questions.
VOICE     :   what do you see ?
JOE         :    downtown Ipswich.
VOICE    :    if you were to go into the town centre and shine your car
torch would I be able to see it ?
JOE        :    no!
VOICE   :  why?
JOE       : because of all the bright lights in the town.
VOICE  :  if I blacked out the electricity supply, would I then be able to
see your car torch light ?
JOE      : of course!
VOICE : that is what I am going to do ! I will remove all man made
artificial and competing light and then people will 
              crawl and grope on their knees in the darkness towards the
true light on above.  

This episode has stayed with me ever since and has been seared into my heart
. It rekindles every Chag Chanukah with the lighting of the Chanukah candles
and the reading of Parashat Mikeitz relating the story of Yosef. 

Chanukah is of significant personal importance to me as during this Chag
four years ago I underwent my Brit Milah.
It was the eighth year of my personal walk and I decided to undergo this
procedure on the eighth day of Chanukah when the light is the greatest. I
insisted on being awake so that I could recite the brachot and sip of the"
borei pri ha gaffin "
I took the name Yosef ben Avraham and my tefilah to HaShem at the moment was
:
" All my life HaShem I have been sacrificing swine on the altar of your
temple in my heart. Please HaShem with what ever little oil that I have left
please cleanse me so that I may rededicate myself back to you".

I have never been the same again. It was not planned, it just happened on
the spot. A personal Jewish doctor friend of mine, Aaron was willing to do
the procedure. No Rabbi was present ( halachah disqualified) but the Sefer
Torah and Eliyahu's chair were present. This I believe was HaShem's doing. I
am praying at the moment and being counseled by the local Rabbis whether to
proceed with full orthodox conversion. Meeting my friends from Elei Sinai
has had a profound impact on my life. Baruch HaShem. I now have friends,
family and a community in Yisrael to cleave and bond to when I eventually do
aliyah. There are many technical details to overcome including the
permission of the rabbis and my wife.
However I believe that HaShem has already laid all the foundations on that
fateful Chanukah four years ago.

May His name be glorified and extolled forever.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

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From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue Dec 23 22:00:28 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:00:28 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] Chanukah & Geula
In-Reply-To: <855590370812220225x5bcb6341j402a5216673d76e7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812220225x5bcb6341j402a5216673d76e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ABA41008A9F46EC955C8D7AF7CD8137@bettylaptop>

 

 

Elisheva/Betty

 

  _____  


The editorial page of Breslev Israel's English website

 Thanks for this Hanoch?.I copied and pasted a portion of this encouraging
article below?

 

Elisheva

 

Despair and depression are darkness. Judaism - particularly the Chanuka
holiday - teaches that there is no room for despair and depression in the
Jewish lexicon. There's always hope. The Gemara teaches that even if a sharp
knife is resting on your throat, don't despair - trust in Hashem's
magnificent and merciful lovingkindness.

 

 

Our sages teach that as long as the candle is burning, there's always hope.
Never despair, no matter what your seemingly insurmountable problem is.
Rebbe Nachman of Breslev says, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? - everything could
turn itself around completely for the better in the nearest future. Just
like the few Maccabees who remained faithful 

 

The Jewish people are sometimes down, but never out. The tiny flames of
Chanuka always lift us out of the dark abyss.

 

Don't despair. Don't ever lose faith. Salvation is on the way, for sure.

 

Happy Chanuka.

 

 

(We invite you to visit Rabbi Lazer Brody's award-winning daily web journal,
"Lazer Beams <http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/> ") 

 

 

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From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Dec 24 06:41:22 2008
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 04:41:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Fw: [UILIST] Update on Rudy and Linda]
In-Reply-To: <4951554C.3020104@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <203585.58902.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Dear All:
?
Last night Linda called to give the latest update on Rudy. He is on antibiotics but overall he is stronger?and brighter in his outlook which Linda takes to be a good sign. Surgery is scheduled for Friday morning. We will continue to pray them through this hard time knowing Hashem does all things well. Linda is spending most nights sleeping at the hospital and with the bad weather we have had, it is safer for her and less?driving back and forth.
?
Shalom to all.
?
Kind regards,
?
Helen

--- On Tue, 12/23/08, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

From: Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au>
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Fw: [UILIST] Update on Rudy and Linda]
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 4:17 PM


Shalom Helen,

todah rabbah for keeping us informed about Rudi. The news is very disturbing as we pray for his recovery.

Have they been able to operate yet ?

May I propose to those who light Chanukah candles that they keep Rudi in their prayers as they recite the bracha of the lighting of the candles.

Let us also keep Linda and the family in our thoughts and prayers.

May HaShem shower this family with Rachamim.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.
_______________________________________________
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 11:48:29 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:48:29 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Hannukah - Getting the Point'
Message-ID: <855590370812240948o13387c98if229e5a326534c8b@mail.gmail.com>

*Hannukah ? Getting the Point
*
By Rabbi Dawidh Hanokh Yisshaq Bar-Hayim
Machon Shilo ? Torath Eress Yisrael
harav at machonshilo.org <harav%40machonshilo.org> | www.machonshilo.org

Why do we Jews celebrate Hannukah? What's it all about? Many of us
tend to concentrate on questions such as whether to light candles or
use oil, by the door or window?. and somehow we miss the point.
Although it goes without saying that we must perform all the misswoth
to the utmost of our ability, we must never allow precise Halakhic
observance, the 'trees', to cloud our perception of the 'forest', the
Torah's underlying message and purpose.

To better understand the holiday, we need to review the historical
events that we celebrate 2170 years later.

The Story of Hannukah
After the death of Alexander the Great (323 BCE), the empire he had
carved out was divided among his generals. The area known as Yehudhah
(Judea) first fell into the hands of the Ptolemaic Empire, centered in
Egypt, and later became part of the Greco-Syrian Empire (198 BCE). The
inevitable result was that Greek thinking and culture began to make
inroads into the culture and life of the Jewish homeland.

By 175 BCE when the evil Antiokhus Epiphanes ('God personified' in
Greek!) rose to the throne, Hellenism had taken root within the Jewish
people. The Hellenists, a significant minority among the Jews drawn
almost exclusively from the wealthy elite of Jerusalem and the large
coastal cities, saw Greek culture as the most advanced and enlightened
of the day, and turned their backs on their God and their people. Such
betrayal always has its rewards. These 'Jews' were feted by the
Greco-Syrian government and were often appointed to positions of power
within the colonial administration; the position of 'tax collector'
was particularly coveted, which afforded the opportunity to rob and
extort with official sanction. These traitors constantly fought for
the minds and hearts of the populace with not insignificant success
(Macabees I, 1:11).

For the hard-core Hellenists, however, this was not enough.
Envisioning a New Middle East, they petitioned the king to adopt a
programme calculated to undermine Jewish life and culture. If their
Jewish brethren did not recognize the 'beauty' of Greek 'progress' and
insisted on remaining true to their God and His Torah ? even at the
price of being out of step with the rest of the Empire ? they would
simply have to help them to see the light.

Antiokhus was only too ready to comply and the new government policy
was proclaimed. Circumcision, Shabbath observance and Torah study were
outlawed. Women whose babies were discovered to be circumcised were
put to death together with their sons. An idol of the Greek god Zeus
was erected in the Miqdash (Temple); Torah scrolls were sought out and
torched. Many Jews chose to die a martyr's death rather than
transgress the Word of God (Macabees I, 1:44-64). For a time it seemed
that the anti-Torah forces would prevail.

This was the state of affairs when a force of Greek soldiers arrived
in the town of Modhi'in to enforce the edict requiring every Jewish
settlement to sacrifice on a Greek altar. The townspeople were
forcibly gathered, and Matithyahu ? the head of the clan of Kohanim
who resided in the town ? was approached by a Greek official to 'do
the honours'. "Heaven forbid ? I and my sons shall follow the example
of our forefathers. We shall never forsake the Torah" he replied
(Macabees I, 2:20-21). Another Jew, however, willing to do the dirty
work (for a price), was called upon.

As this Jew was about to desecrate HASHEM's Name in public, Matithyahu
decided that enough was enough; it was now clear beyond doubt that the
only choice left was to live as an idol-worshipping Greek or die as a
Jew. Matithyahu resolved that if he must die, he would die fighting:

"And Matithyahu was zealous [for HASHEM], being greatly perturbed; in
his just outrage he ran and slaughtered the man on the altar. He then
killed the official in charge, and destroyed the altar. He acted
zealously for the Torah like Pinhas did to Zimri Ben Salu, and he
cried: 'All those who are zealous for the Torah, who are faithful to
the Covenant [with HASHEM] ? follow me! And he and his sons fled to
the mountains, leaving all their belongings behind" (Macabees I,
2:15-28).

Thus began the Hashmonean revolt. The rest, as they say, is history:
in a campaign that lasted three years, an irregular army of untrained
peasant-soldiers, poorly armed and forced to live off the land, led by
Matithyahu's son Yehudhah, succeeded in driving the Greco-Syrian
forces out of Jerusalem and much of the country. They reinstated the
Laws of the Torah, and actively persecuted the Hellenist turn-coats.

The victorious Jewish forces marched to Jerusalem ? which the Greeks
and Hellenists had declared off limits to Jews ? and entered the
Miqdash. The sight that met their eyes was not a pretty one: the
Temple was desolate, the altar had been desecrated and weeds grew in
the cracks of the stone floors.

It took eight days to restore some semblance of order, rebuild the
mizbeah and produce the necessary vessels for the Temple service
(Meghilath Ta'anith, 23). On the 25th day of the ninth month (Kislew)
they rose early in the morning and performed the first sacrifice that
had been offered in three years:

"And the people fell on their faces, and prayed, and praised HASHEM
for having granted them victory. And they celebrated the rededication
of the Altar for eight days... and the rejoicing of the people was
very great; the ignominy of foreign domination was removed. And
Yehudhah, his brethren, and all of the Assembly of Israel instituted
that these Days of Rededication of the Altar be observed annually for
eight days, beginning on the 25th of the month of Kislew..." (Macabees
I, 4:55-58).

A letter was sent by Yehudhah and the Sanhedrin to the Jews of Egypt,
informing them of the new festival:

"May HASHEM be praised for bringing the evil-doers low. We are
preparing to celebrate, on the 25th day of Kislew, the Festival of the
Purification of the Miqdash ? we inform you so that you too shall
celebrate the Festival of Sukoth..." (Macabees 2, 1:17-18). (This
unusual epithet is clarified later: "And they celebrated the eight
days with rejoicing as the days of Sukoth, for they recalled the dire
straits in which they had been some time before during the Festival of
Sukoth, when they had been living in the mountains and in caves like
animals?" (Macabees 2, 10:6)).

This is the essential story of Hannukah: the successful revolt of
God-fearing Jews, dedicated to the Torah of their forefathers, against
those 'Jews' and non-Jews determined to eradicate their way of life.

The revolt succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. Not only did they
restore the primacy of Torah culture and practice in the State of
Yehudhah; for the first time in centuries, the Jewish nation was once
again sovereign and able to determine its own destiny. The historic
significance of this victory cannot be overstressed: it is quite
likely that without the successful armed revolt led by Matithyahu and
his sons, we would have disappeared as a people more than 2000 years
ago.

The Miracle of Hannukah and Hallel
It is this miraculous salvation and victory to which the Talmudh
refers when it asks: "Why do we recite Hallel on Hannukah?" The
Talmudh replies: "Because of the nes [miracle]. If so, why is Hallel
not recited on Purim in commemoration of the nes? [Answer]: Hallel is
not recited for a nes that takes place outside the Land [seeing that
we remain in Exile, it is only a partial salvation]" ('Arakhin 10b).

The question is: What miracle of Purim? No supernatural event is
recorded in the Book of Ester; one occurrence follows another and
cause leads to effect in a seemingly unremarkable fashion. In point of
fact, the Book of Ester is the only book of the Tanakh in which the
name of HASHEM does not even appear. What then is the miracle of Purim
to which the Talmudh refers?

It is a common misconception that the Hebrew term nes necessarily
refers to a supernatural event. The truth is that the very same word
also means 'flag', 'banner' or 'standard'. "And HASHEM said to Moses:
'Make a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard ['nes']; and it
shall be that anyone who was bitten, when he sees it, shall live'"
(Bemidhbar-Numbers 21:8). And in Tehilim (Psalms) we read: "You have
given a banner ['nes'] to them that fear You" (60:6).

Something which stands out from its surroundings, an object or an
event of which people take particular notice, is a nes ? be it a
banner or flag designed to attract attention, or a supernatural
miracle which stands apart as an extraordinary occurrence.

The victory of the Jewish People against a great empire, against all
odds and logic, is the outstanding and singular event to which the
Talmudh refers. This is confirmed by the text of Al HaNissim ('For the
miracles') which we add to our prayers during Hannukah; the miracle of
the oil is left unmentioned.

As opposed to the miracle of our salvation and victory which we recall
by reciting Hallel, the miracle of the oil is commemorated by the
lighting of the candles (see T.B. Shabbath 21b and Maharsha ad loc).
The miracle of the oil was a relatively minor event, and would not
have warranted decreeing a new holiday in and of itself. Coming,
however, on the heels of such history-shaping events ? which made it
possible once again for the Jewish People to live in accordance with
HASHEM's Torah in the Land of their Fathers ? the miracle of the oil
underscored the fact that all the events of Hannukah stem from the
same Divine source (Ner Misswah, Maharal of Prague, p.22).

When viewed through the eyes of Torah ? whereby all events and
happenings are forever in the Hands of HASHEM, God of Israel ? the
'miracles' of Purim and Hannukah, the prevailing of the Jews over
their enemies with the hidden Hand of HASHEM helping those who help
themselves, are miracles indeed.

With the clarity afforded by an authentic Torah perspective, HASHEM's
workings within the apparently 'normal' events of this world are truly
the greatest miracle of all.
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 11:59:37 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:59:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Richness of Spirit
Message-ID: <855590370812240959y5dee92f9lf5a0267c314b6120@mail.gmail.com>

Hannukah Sameach L'Kulchem,

    Below are some of the insights that Rav Kook had shared about some of
the 'hidden' elements to Hannukah.  I can't help but think of what someone
told me a few years back about what the miracle of Hannukah actually WAS.
What they had said, was that the TRUE miracle, is that when Mattityahu had
said 'follow me' to his sons, they all actually followed.  They understood
the Torah the way he understood it, they had the same values that he had,
and they too, knew what needed to be done......to anyone that's ever tried
to raise children, no further elaboration is needed....
                            * Hanoch*
**
  *Chanukah: Richness of Spirit (from Rav Kook)*

The holiday of Chanukah raises a number of questions:


   - Why do we celebrate Chanukah for eight days? After all, they had enough
   oil to burn for one day, so the miracle really was only for seven days.
   Since the holiday commemorates the miracle of the Temple oil, we should
   celebrate only seven days.

   - The minimum requirement is for each family to light one candle each
   night. The custom, however, is to light with two
*hidurim*(embellishments): every member of the family lights, and the
number of
   candles corresponds to the day of Chanukah. Why do we add these two *
   hidurim*?

   - The Talmud [Menachot 28b] relates that the Maccabees were not able to
   obtain a solid gold Menorah for the Temple as the Torah specifies. Lacking
   the means for such an expensive Menorah, they constructed one out of wood
   (or metal covered with wood). Why was there a miracle for the oil, but none
   for the Menorah?


*Two Hidurim*

The truth is, had the Maccabees not found the small cruse of pure olive oil,
they could have used any oil. While it is best to use olive oil, any oil
that burns well may be used in the Temple Menorah.

The Chanukah miracle could have been the Menorah burning all eight days with
'miracle oil.' But while 'miracle oil' is as good as any other oil, it is
not olive oil. The miracle of the first day of Chanukah was that the
Maccabees found ritually pure olive oil. Not only was this quite unexpected,
it also enabled them to light with the optimal type of oil.

In addition, since most of the nation at the time was ritually impure, the
Maccabees could even have used impure oil. The miracle of finding the cruse
of oil thus allowed them to fulfill two *hidurim*: lighting on the first day
with olive oil, and lighting with ritually pure oil. Therefore, we also
perform two *hidurim*, with every family member lighting, and lighting
multiple candles.

*Guarding the Inner Spirit*

But why was there no comparable miracle with the Menorah itself? Why didn't
the Maccabees also find a solid gold Menorah in the desecrated Temple?

The Menorah corresponds to the material state of the Jewish people. It is a
vessel for holding the oil. The olive oil, on the other hand, is a metaphor
for the nation's inner spirit.

While it is fitting that the external vessel should be complete and
aesthetically pleasing, there are times when the physical reality is harsh
and difficult. During such troubled times, we must make do with what we
have, even if it means lighting with a Menorah made out of wood.

However, the spirit - the oil nourishing the inner flame - must always
remain spiritually rich, with all of the *hidurim* of purity and holiness.
This is an important part of the message of Chanukah: the miracle occurred,
not with the Menorah, but with the oil. We may suffer physical hardships and
deprivations, but our spiritual life must always shine with a clear and
bright light.

[adapted from *Igrot HaRe'iyah* vol. III, p. 797]

   Rav Kook on the Net: RavKookTorah.org <http://www.ravkooktorah.org/>
This week's Dvar Torah: RavKook.co.nr <http://www.ravkook.co.nr/>
This Dvar Torah: CHANUKA59.htm <http://www.ravkooktorah.org/CHANUKA59.htm>
To subscribe/unsubscribe or comments, write to: Rav Kook
List<RavKookList at gmail.com>
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Wed Dec 24 19:17:53 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:17:53 -0600
Subject: [Dialogue] greeting from Calb Fordham
In-Reply-To: <c599cad60812181857l4c0eccb6u38d56bdcc3e465d6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c599cad60807290833n47e9dcebj2ba455ef927161a6@mail.gmail.com>	
	<494AD0FF.2080103@gninc.ca>
	<c599cad60812181857l4c0eccb6u38d56bdcc3e465d6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4952DF41.1050900@gninc.ca>

To all of you I just recently wrote a private business letter to Chris 
and Amber Fordham, they told me to say hello to everyone as follows.

Yes, it has been a while!  Thank you for thinking of us!  We just 
recently moved to Charlotte and are busier now than we have ever been!  
It has been a fun journey though!   Tell everyone we said hello!  Chris 
and Amber Fordham 
> Cornie  


From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec 25 07:15:50 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 13:15:50 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] greeting from Calb Fordham
In-Reply-To: <4952DF41.1050900@gninc.ca>
References: <c599cad60807290833n47e9dcebj2ba455ef927161a6@mail.gmail.com>	<494AD0FF.2080103@gninc.ca><c599cad60812181857l4c0eccb6u38d56bdcc3e465d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<4952DF41.1050900@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <122520081315.24346.4953878500078F5D00005F1A22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Happy Hanukkah Chris, Amber and Cornie.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca>: -------------- 


> To all of you I just recently wrote a private business letter to Chris 
> and Amber Fordham, they told me to say hello to everyone as follows. 
> 
> Yes, it has been a while! Thank you for thinking of us! We just 
> recently moved to Charlotte and are busier now than we have ever been! 
> It has been a fun journey though! Tell everyone we said hello! Chris 
> and Amber Fordham 
> > Cornie 
> _______________________________________________ 
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Dec 25 16:08:05 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 14:08:05 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Returning to Yosef's Tomb...
Message-ID: <855590370812251408p65fecf19s1ac2b3471823b18@mail.gmail.com>

  Joseph's Tomb Gets a Paint Job After 9 Years of Arab Desecration Kislev
28, 5769, 25 December 08 12:51
by Avraham Zuroff

(IsraelNN.com) A team of Jewish workers accompanied by the IDF spruced-up
two nights ago the tomb of the Biblical Joseph in Shechem. The restoration
was performed by the Shechem Echad organization, which is responsible for
restoring historic Jewish graves throughout Samaria.

The campaign to restore Joseph's Tomb, spearheaded by Shomron Regional
Council head Gershon Mesika, began last Chanukah, immediately after Mesika
began his tenure. Mesika and his strategic advisory board visited the holy
site and held a special prayer meeting thanking G-d for the opportunity to
lead the Jewish communities in Samaria. Mesika stated at the event that he
would use all of his influence to restore the Tomb of Joseph and to
reestablish the yeshiva that thrived there until the site was overrun by
Arab mobs and burnt down nine years ago. %ad%

After his election, Mesika set in motion monthly visits to the site for
thousands of worshipers from around the country and around the world. The
Shomron Regional Council has been in continual contact with the IDF and even
lobbied the Knesset in order to allow at least partial access to the throngs
of Jewish worshippers.

At present, the IDF usually allows access to Joseph's Tomb once a month, but
limits the number to 1,000 people. Due to the security situation, the IDF
only gives limited advanced notice when Joseph's Tomb is officially open to
Jews. Due to a large waiting list, the Shomron Community Council also does
not publicize extensively the dates when access to the tomb is authorized.
In addition, many of the coveted spots are reserved for public officials and
other VIPs from abroad.

On Wednesday night, among the hundreds of worshippers who came to Joseph's
Tomb was Rabbanit Dorit Kadouri, the widow of Kabbalist Rabbi Yitzchak
Kadouri. Over ten busloads of worshippers throughout Israel visited the tomb
on the fourth night of Chanukah. That night was the first time
worshippers saw the tomb's renovations. Jewish workers funded by anonymous
donors painted the blackened walls of the defaced religious landmark and
built a new stone covering for the grave of Joseph, which was smashed by
Arabs in an act of hatred for the Jewish religion and heritage. Local
leaders hope that this will be a first stage towards the goal of completely
rebuilding the site and the yeshiva.


Workers replacing Joseph's tombstone, which was defaced by Arabs 9 years
ago.


*Testing the Waters While Tracing the Footprints*
The IDF is currently testing the Arabs' response in Shechem to the
renovations. Although a relative calm permeated the tense Shechem
atmosphere, soldiers found fresh footprints in the recently poured cement.
The Jewish organizers hope that the incident is isolated and that the Arabs'
tacit acceptance will allow the IDF to ensure access to the tomb more
frequently.

Shomron Community Council liaison David Ha'ivri stated, "Jews who are
willing to consider giving Jewish holy sites over to Arab administration
must be made aware of the disgraceful events that led to the desecration of
a Biblical burial place of an important father of our nation. For two
thousand years the site was untouched and within hours the Arabs burned it
to the ground."

-- 
David Ha'ivri
The Shomron Liaison Office
USA Phone  1-512-704-6146
Israel Phone 052-607-1690
Website www.yeshuv.org
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Dec 25 16:13:13 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 14:13:13 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] 'We need another Maccabee'
Message-ID: <855590370812251413o6347452eme54edd67cb19dd92@mail.gmail.com>

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We Need Another Maccabee Kislev 27, 5769, 24 December 08 10:54
by by Sammy Benoit

(IsraelNN.com) Sunday night was the first night of Chanukah, the holiday
with as many meanings as it has spellings. Why do we celebrate? Pick one or
pick all:

1. A successful Jewish revolt against a Syrian empire ruled by the Seleucid
dynasty of Greek kings some 2,200 years ago.

2. A revolt against assimilation and the attempt to impose Hellenistic
culture on ancient Judea.

3. A celebration of the re-dedication of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem.

4. Recognition of a miracle in which one day's worth of oil burnt in the
menorah for eight days.

5. A civil war against those Jews who assimilated and ruled Israel without
remembering that God was involved in every aspect of our lives, including
governance.

It is the last point that relates so much to today's world. Israel is led by
politicians who have no faith in the God who gave them the Land. They allow
the Temple Mount - which used the be the "home" of God's
*Shekhinah*("Presence") and hopefully will be again soon - to be
mutilated; in fact,
they are willing to give it away. They do not protect Joseph's Tomb in
Shechem or Rachel's Tomb in Bethlehem. They have fallen in love with Western
culture and have forgotten how easily Judaism can get assimilated into it.

Ehud Olmert, Tzipi Livni and Ehud Barak have worked hard to please their
Hellenist kings, George Bush and Condoleezza Rice. Instead of remembering
what Judah the Maccabee did in Modi'in, they look toward Medina. Even the
Shas party, which entered the government to protect Jerusalem as Jewish,
sold themselves for political power.

Israel has leaders who sneak into the side entrance to so they can negotiate
with people who want to destroy them, forgetting what others have learned
before:

"It is incredible what political simpletons Jews are. They shut their eyes
to one of the most elementary rules of life, that you must not 'meet
halfway' those who do not want to meet you." -- Ze'ev Jabotinsky, "The Iron
Wall", November 4, 1923

And once again, just like all of the other times, Israel has been dumped for
political expediency by the Jewish People. The American Jewish Community
proved their assimilation by helping to elect a new president with anti-Israel
advisers<http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2008/10/election-plea-to-those-who-love-israel.html>.
Our American Jewish Community has fallen in love with their political
connections and lost their connection with their Jewish roots.

When push comes to shove, those Jews who believe in God must stand up and
fight. Just like they did over two thousand years ago. After all, Maccabee
stands for, "Who is like you O Lord".

As we celebrate this Chanukah holiday, we must redouble our efforts to rally
for the cause of right. And we must pray to God that he sends us a Maccabee,
instead of the leaders we have now both in Israel and in the American Jewish
Community.

"Not by might, not by power, but by My spirit alone...." It doesn't mean
don't fight; it means don't fight without God in your heart.
 www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
(c) Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Dec 25 16:23:37 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 14:23:37 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] "Chanuka, 2008: The struggle against Hellenism"
Message-ID: <855590370812251423x1295a450g466444c85b591971@mail.gmail.com>

 Chanuka, 2008: The Struggle against
Hellenism<http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/12/chanuka-2008-the-struggle-against-hellenism.html>
  Rabbi Lazer Brody

An old Breslever saying says that when one lights Chanuka candles and
believes that the miracle of Chanuka only took place once upon a time in
history without believing that it's still taking place this very minute,
then he isn't properly fulfilling the mitzva.

The Maccabees not only fought against the Greeks, but fought against the
assimilationist Jews, then known as Hellenists. The Maccabees, from the
Hasmonean family of Cohanim (priests), were virtually the only loyal,
steadfast Torah-observant Jews of their time. The Greek occupation of Israel
was very benevolent on a physical basis. The Greeks encouraged Jewish
participation in all their institutions - athletics, academic, and
political. They only outlawed three "tiny" mitzvas - Shabbat, circumcision,
and the lunar calendar. Very clever - no Shabbat means no emuna that Hashem
created the world. No circumcision means no covenant of holiness and no
Jewish identity. No lunar calendar means no Jewish holidays. All three
prohibitions meant the death of Judaism, G-d forbid.

99% of the populace assimilated back then. Only the Maccabees and their tiny
band of followers remained loyal to Hashem and His Torah.

According to Rebbe Natan of Breslev (see Likutei Halachot, Chanuka, Halacha
2.1), an evil regime is that which attempts to terminate our Divine service
and Torah learning. Anyone who harbors a  design to kill Jews certainly
qualifies as evil, since a dead person can't serve Hashem or learn Torah.
Yet, there's no difference between the Hellenists of today - those who lead
what they proudly call "the secular revolution" in Israel, whether it be the
media, a political party, or whoever else - and the Hellenists of
yesteryear. Both did and do everything in their power to spread hate,
especially against Torah-observant Jews, the Torah, and the holy Yeshivot.

Rebbe Natan says that the only way to defeat such evil is through a
connection with a powerful tzaddik that has the power of holiness to defeat
evil. Our connection to Rebbe Nachman gives us that power.

Today, we don't fight against evil with spears. We use the light of the
tzaddik, which we put in suitable vessels like Emuna CDs, The Garden of
Emuna or The Trail to Tranquility. Rather than killing evil, we convert the
evil to holiness. That's how we intend to bring Moshiach. It doesn't matter
who gets elected in Israel, because ultimately, Livni, Barak, and Bibi will
all do teshuva. A little flicker of Rebbe Nachman's light defeats tons of
Hellenistic darkness.
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From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 25 17:49:53 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 15:49:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting Perspective
Message-ID: <346143.64422.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Some of our more scholarly?alumni, who like this sort of thing, might find this an interesting take on things...I've never heard it quite this way before. James and Ross, what do you think?? He dates the 390 years PRIOR to Babylon instead of afterward...the 20 years and then the teacher to Zadok...He believes Yeshua was an Essene Rabbi...
?
www.thescrollsandthesect.com?
?
Tracy


      
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Thu Dec 25 20:02:26 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:02:26 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Preparing' for more rockets]
Message-ID: <49543B32.9070206@westnet.com.au>

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Thu Dec 25 21:08:08 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 19:08:08 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Great Israeli Army Chanukah Story
Message-ID: <855590370812251908x41957fe3hfb1a7f2851692718@mail.gmail.com>

  Small Tastings of Torah, Judaism and Spirituality
by Rav Binny Freedman, Director


*Portion of Miketz*
[image:
http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001beMeoN6VL6OYbhz028AZo8zmWRFsrQQRATNhWz6l_RxOFb6SS5gSl_rgt_x6np8EGTX9EqG-7silnVkJ1YNHYSCjkLMHLO1kBjYd5FFQ_F7V5TpKH6TeEncAnQI1W7RJb9UkD_vcihVwFAD4Acg74BEtm0LPUQSe]
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001beMeoN6VL6OYbhz028AZo8zmWRFsrQQRATNhWz6l_RxOFb6SS5gSl_rgt_x6np8EGTX9EqG-7silnVkJ1YNHYSCjkLMHLO1kBjYd5FFQ_F7V5TpKH6TeEncAnQI1W7RJb9UkD_vcihVwFAD4Acg74BEtm0LPUQSe>



 *To be honest, that year, I wasn't particularly looking forward to
Chanukah, and hadn't really had much time to think about it. Our armored
battalion had recently come down from a few months up in Lebanon, and while
I was thankful we would be spending the winter in Israel and not up in the
freezing cold mountains of Lebanon, we were still in the process of
overhauling the tanks; not a particularly enjoyable task.

We were so involved with the various procedures, lack of sleep, and greasy
filth inherently involved with getting our company's tanks back on alert
status on time, that it was only a few hours before Chanukah when I realized
with a start that, having given no thought at all to the holiday, I had no
menorah, no candles or oil, and certainly no gold coins or dreidels.

A wave of depression swept over me, as I realized that I would be
celebrating Chanukah all alone, surrounded by dirty, exhausted soldiers who
didn't place much stock in the holiday and at best could be expected to
enjoy the movie night that week on the base. This year Chanukah was just
going to be a big pain; we were on alert status in the Jordan valley, which
was not a tense border, but our tanks were charged with covering that area
of the border, and as the youngest officer I had no hope of getting leave
just to get some Chanukah candles. , I knew I would end up having to
scrounge around every day for enough candles to light each night.

As the sun set, and the mountains of Jordan changed colors, my mood
worsened, as I remembered what Chanukah used to feel like, how much I always
looked forward to it, and how depressing it was going to be to light a
simple white Shabbat candle in a corner of the dining room.

It was at this point that one of the reserve duty soldiers who was helping
us overhaul the tanks that week, noticed that I obviously had something on
my mind and, to my surprise, wished me a happy Chanukah. I guess he could
see the surprise on my face, because he smiled and said:

"Mah' Ha'ba'ayah? Atah Lo Rotzeh' Chag Sameach?"
"What's the matter? You don't want a happy Chanukah?

At which point I must have launched into a long- winded explanation of how
depressing it was to be alone on Chanukah, especially since one of the major
points of the Chanukah celebration is supposed to be Pirsumah' de'Nisah', or
publicizing the miracle. At this point, this fellow, if my memory serves me,
actually got annoyed with me, and said the only line from this entire
experience that I remember with absolute clarity:

 "Az Efoh Ba'Olam Yesh Makom Yoter Tov Lachgog Et Ha'Nes Ha'Zeh, Me'asher
Ha'Makom Ha'Zeh?"
"So where else in the world is there a better place than here to celebrate
the miracle of Chanukah?"

 The guys were all starting to leave the tanks and head into the dining hall
for dinner, and he grabbed me and told me to follow him, and we walked down
to the edge of the line of tanks, where some spent 105mm shell casings were
lying on the ground, waiting to be taken out to the ammo dump.

He grabbed a couple and gave me one, and started walking to the mess hall.
Grabbing a shovel from the emergency fire stand, he started digging a small
hole, and then threw me a shovel, and while I did the same, he shoved the
empty tank shell casing into the edge of the hole, so I did the same with
mine. Then he started shoveling some of the dirt into the shell casing,
which was about waist- high, and by this time, I was grinning, having
figured it out. When we were done, we had the largest makeshift menorah I
had ever lit. We poured gun-oil on top of the dirt that was in each shell
casing, and then topped it off with some very flammable benzene (gasoline).
And I grabbed a lighter and was about to light when he looked at me with
horror, and said: "what are you doing?"

I guess, again, he saw the confusion on my face, because he said to me:

"Mah' Karah' Lecha'? Lech Tikra' Le'kulam!"
"What's the matter with you? Go call everyone out here!"

 So I went inside and made what I thought was a fairly weak announcement
that we were lighting Chanukah candles outside, and that who whoever was
interested should come join us. I figured it would actually be nice if a few
guys decided to join us, but I never expected what actually happened next.
The battalion commander got up, looked around the dining hall, and strode
outside to join us, at which point the entire base, at least a couple of
hundred men, came outside to join us.

And then this fellow handed me a stick with a rag, dipped in some benzene he
had put together, and said' go ahead and light'. But I refused to take it,
feeling this was really his show, and he should absolutely have the
incredible privilege of lighting the menorah he had created.

So he took the stick in his hand, and when everyone got really quiet,
announced in a loud voice:

"Lifnei She'nadlik, Bini Yomar Kamah Milim!"
"Before we light, Binny will say a couple of words!"

 So what do you say, to two hundred modern day Macabees, defending the
borders of Israel, after two thousand years of exile, in a modern Jewish
state? Words definitely failed me that night, and to be honest, I don't
really recall what I said, which is probably as it should be, because some
experiences are not meant to be put into words.

I do remember looking over at my new-found friend, whose name, to be honest,
I cannot even recall, and watching with some surprise, as he took a Kippah
(Jewish head covering) out of his pocket and put it on his head, just before
he lit the candles. And I remember being even more surprised as he recited
all the blessings of the first night's candle lighting from memory. And
then, I will never forget how someone started singing and a few of the guys
started dancing, all by the light of the Chanukah 'candle' in a 105mm tank
shell casing, in the middle of an Israeli Army tank base, near the Jordanian
border. Could you ever have a more meaningful Chanukah candle- lighting?

Finally,when we were done, I went over to thank this fellow, who proceeded
to thank me with the following explanation: He had been one of the original
tank crews on the Suez canal, on the infamous bar Lev line, when thousands
of Egyptian tanks and men crossed the canal into Israeli territory. He made
it out of the first wave, and found himself, on the third day of the
fighting with one of the tank units attempting to counter-attack and regain
lost ground.

Deep in the desert, the night turned into day as tanks all around him burst
into flames; his unit, he told me, was at the mercy of the newest anti- tank
missiles being fired by Egyptian Commandoes from amongst the dunes. The
whole sc?ne seemed to him like candles burning in the night, and, terrified
that his tank was next, he found himself thinking of Chanukah and the
menorah lights, which he had lit as a kid. And he made a deal with G-d, that
if he made it out of that inferno that year, he would light candles with all
the blessings and all the bells and whistles. And indeed, he managed to do
just that, and has not missed a night of Chanukah candles ever since.

Deep down, I will always wonder whether he survived his own personal hell in
part to share with a very lonely battalion, as well as a particularly
depressed platoon officer, what was absolutely the most incredible Chanukah
lighting I have ever had.

One thing I can say with conviction: I have never lit Chanukah candles quite
the same way ever since.
*

So, how do we succeed in transforming a candle- lighting moment, into a
meaningful Chanukah experience? How do we succeed in transforming not so
much *what* we do, but *how* we choose to do it?
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 26 13:17:25 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 14:17:25 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Please Pray NOW For RUDY!!!
Message-ID: <COL119-DS11AF797BA521F5F4A1E763BAEB0@phx.gbl>

Thank you all so much for your prayers for Rudy.  Linda just called to say that his heart surgery (which had to be delayed because of complications until today) is about to begin - 2:00 EST.  I told her I would write so that we can all be praying for him.  He is such a precious man, and to know him is to love him.

Thank you for your fervent, effectual prayers!!!!!

Love,

Pat
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 26 17:24:33 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:24:33 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] RUDY'S SURGERY GOOD!!!!
Message-ID: <COL119-DS106270C7F04BFEBC779C9DBAEB0@phx.gbl>

JUST TO LET EVERYONE KNOW THAT RUDY IS OUT OF SURGERY AND EVERYTHING WENT WELL.  ALL PRAISE AND GLORY TO OUR G-D!!!!!!  

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR PRAYERS.  

LOVE,

Pat
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 19:13:45 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:13:45 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prayer for the Israeli Defense Forces
Message-ID: <855590370812271713o53d2bcbamb0b3480e6f2fef62@mail.gmail.com>

Hannukah Sameach, Chodesh tov v' Shavua tov,

     I thought that at the very least, we can all pray of behalf of the
young men and women who risk everything to defend HaShem's Chosen Land.
                     *  Hanoch*
**
*Prayer for Israeli Soldiers
*

*Invoking God's protection for the members of the Israel Defense Forces.*

He Who blessed our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- may He bless the
fighters of the Israel Defense Forces, who stand guard over our land and the
cities of our God, from the border of the Lebanon to the desert of Egypt,
and from the Great Sea unto the approach of the Aravah, on the land, in the
air, and on the sea.

May the Almighty cause the enemies who rise up against us to be struck down
before them. May the Holy One, Blessed is He, preserve and rescue our
fighters from every trouble and distress and from every plague and illness,
and may He send blessing and success in their every endeavor.

May He lead our enemies under our soldiers' sway and may He grant them
salvation and crown them with victory. And may there be fulfilled for them
the verse: For it is the Lord your God, Who goes with you to battle your
enemies for you to save you.

Now let us respond: Amen.
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From Correim at gninc.ca  Sat Dec 27 19:21:04 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:21:04 -0600
Subject: [SPAM] [Dialogue] RUDY'S SURGERY GOOD!!!!
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS106270C7F04BFEBC779C9DBAEB0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL119-DS106270C7F04BFEBC779C9DBAEB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4956D480.2000305@gninc.ca>

That is good news indeed. Although I don't know Rudy, but if i have it 
right he has connections with Helen, am I right? I am sorry I have such 
a poor memory about who is who, till of course, once I have something to 
do with them personally.

Cornie



Pat Robbins wrote:
> JUST TO LET EVERYONE KNOW THAT RUDY IS OUT OF SURGERY AND EVERYTHING 
> WENT WELL.  ALL PRAISE AND GLORY TO OUR G-D!!!!!! 
>  
> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR PRAYERS. 
>  
> LOVE,
>  
> Pat
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Dec 27 20:16:56 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:16:56 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RUDY'S SURGERY GOOD!!!!]
Message-ID: <4956E198.8070706@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: [Dialogue] RUDY'S SURGERY GOOD!!!!
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:24:33 -0500
Size: 5715
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20081228/83797899/attachment.eml 

From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 20:18:59 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:18:59 -0800
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RUDY'S SURGERY GOOD!!!!]
In-Reply-To: <4956E198.8070706@westnet.com.au>
References: <4956E198.8070706@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <855590370812271818w4449b453l72dff5d80bbd7532@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, absolutely!  Wonderful news; Refuah Shlema!
             * Hanoch
*
On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

> *Shavua Tov Avigail,
>
> todah rabbah for the encouring news regarding Rudi.
>
> May HaShem grant him a speedy recovery and strengthen Linda in these trying
> times.
>
> Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.
> *
>
>  JUST TO LET EVERYONE KNOW THAT RUDY IS OUT OF SURGERY AND EVERYTHING WENT
> WELL.  ALL PRAISE AND GLORY TO OUR G-D!!!!!!
>
> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR PRAYERS.
>
> LOVE,
>
> Pat
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 27 20:29:24 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:29:24 -0500
Subject: [SPAM] [Dialogue] RUDY'S SURGERY GOOD!!!!
In-Reply-To: <COL119-DS106270C7F04BFEBC779C9DBAEB0@phx.gbl>
	<4956D480.2000305@gninc.ca>
References: <COL119-DS106270C7F04BFEBC779C9DBAEB0@phx.gbl>
	<4956D480.2000305@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS4A63E4E1094F375947CD9BAE90@phx.gbl>

Hi Cornie,

Rudy is Linda's husband.  She and Rudy are good friends of Helen.  I so hope someday we will all be together so we can know one another not only by heart but by faces as well.

Shavua tov, dear friend,

Pat


From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:21 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [Dialogue] RUDY'S SURGERY GOOD!!!!


That is good news indeed. Although I don't know Rudy, but if i have it right he has connections with Helen, am I right? I am sorry I have such a poor memory about who is who, till of course, once I have something to do with them personally. 

Cornie



Pat Robbins wrote: 
  JUST TO LET EVERYONE KNOW THAT RUDY IS OUT OF SURGERY AND EVERYTHING WENT WELL.  ALL PRAISE AND GLORY TO OUR G-D!!!!!!  

  THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR PRAYERS.  

  LOVE,

  Pat
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Dec 27 20:36:34 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:36:34 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] WAR ESCALATION.
Message-ID: <4956E632.5080401@westnet.com.au>

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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sat Dec 27 20:48:36 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:48:36 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] WAR ESCALATION
Message-ID: <4956E904.8000905@westnet.com.au>

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 27 20:49:28 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:49:28 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] WAR ESCALATION.
In-Reply-To: <4956E632.5080401@westnet.com.au>
References: <4956E632.5080401@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS253BF0B3704C613F90A9F5BAE90@phx.gbl>

Lovely, Joe!  Thank you for sending us this.  (I think it's long past time to give up all hope of hugging the meanness out of those rascally terrorists.)


From: Joe Indomenico 
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 9:36 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] WAR ESCALATION.


Shavua Tov Chaverim.

the escalation in Southern Israel / Gaza has begun.......


Disproportionate Response - - - - - - - posted by Akiva - - 12/27/2008 06:58:00 PM ET 
by Reb Akiva at Mystical Paths

As I stepped out of shul late this morning for a bit of air, I heard an extended series of rolling BOOMs. Not being familiar with the sound of WAR, I paused and wondered what was it? Kind of like an earthquake, but no ground motion. Sort of like a sonic boom, but it just kept going.

I exited Shabbos to find the Israeli southern border battle escalated. What southern border battle you ask? For those who don't follow the news closely, southern Israeli towns, villages, and cities have been under ROCKET and MISSILE attack for the past 7 YEARS. In the past year southern Israel has been hit with 3,000 (!!!!) rockets or missiles. IN THE PAST WEEK, 200 (!!!!!!!).

The world once again hears the cry of DISPROPORTIONATE RESPONSE (whatever the heck that means). Dear World, you are absolutely correct! Israel has been hit 3,000 times in the past year and has hit back 100 times. Indeed, Israel has NOT been defending itself proportionately!

Perhaps that has begun to change.

Don't forget, dear World (though you will), Hamas chose NOT to renew the (not) truce. (Not truce? 3,000 attacks is NOT a truce even if the Israeli politicians were willing to pretend it was.) Hamas decided they couldn't tolerate ONLY making an average of 57 attacks a week (that's only [???] 8 per day), not enough Jews being killed, maimed, or terrorized.

The poor little crazed homicidal barbaric murderous killer is not the injured party here.

World, you will conveniently forget that. You will demand instant secession of hostilities (that never stop from the Arab side). You will demand Israel feed, cloth, keep the power, phone, and water on, deliver oil, gas, and all normal services of civilization while under constant bombardment and while the delivery people are attacked and killed.

There are only 3 possible explanations for this:

1. You buy into Palestinian propaganda much as you bought into Hitler's y"s propaganda. That ended really well last time, didn't it? (Really bad for the Jews, but Europe didn't exactly come out in good shape.)

2. You truly have fallen for the completely liberal super-civilized ideals of being kind to the enemy and it all being a misunderstanding that can be calmly worked out (and anyone who isn't doing so is the bad guy). If true, it will be interesting to watch you flounder dealing with a resurgent Russia and aggressive Muslim immigrant population. Somehow I don't think a strongly worded letter will be sufficient. If history has any lessons, you may want to read up on the fall of the Roman empire.

3. Esav hates Yaakov. In other words, anti-semitism. You truly do hate Israel for the fact that it's Jewish and are quite happy to undermine it.

Dear World, fortunately I don't trust in you. If one should pursue a thousand, and two - ten-thousand, or G-d forbid the reverse, can one fail to see the hand of the King of kings? 

Trust in your chariots and horses, in your economies and politics.

We will trust in Hashem (G-d).

May HaShem's Rachamin be roused together with his justice and righteousness.
May His Name be glorified.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.



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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 27 21:03:11 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:03:11 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] WAR ESCALATION
In-Reply-To: <4956E904.8000905@westnet.com.au>
References: <4956E904.8000905@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS1383FADF8C51EF2159C103BAE90@phx.gbl>

YES!!!  May HaShem give Israel's leaders wisdom to make the right decisions, and may He grant success and safety to our soldiers, as well as protect the welfare of the citizens within rocket range of Gaza.  LET G-D ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED!!!!!!!!!!  Psalm 68:1

Avigail 


From: Joe Indomenico 
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 9:48 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] WAR ESCALATION


An article by Rabbi Lazer Brody.



Sunday, 28 December 2008
Operation Cast Lead: Sirens in Ashdod
Operation "Cast Lead" began today in Gaza, destroying Hamas security compounds in Gaza. 

Over 60 IAF planes attacked Gaza. As the planes begin their 40-60 second bomb-run descent over my hometown of Ashdod, we always know when something is brewing. There's a distinct difference in the whine of the jet engines when they're on a patrol or maneuver and when it's the real deal. At the Melitzer synagogue in Ashdod, we were in the middle of the Torah reading at exactly 11:13 AM Shabbat morning when dozens of jets flew overhead southward toward Gaza, some 24 km (15 miles) away. Since the IDF doesn't perform maneuvers on Shabbat, we had all the more reason to believe that the age of restraint was now coming to an end.

The Israeli airstrike was deadly accurate, destroying several Hamas training camps and even bombarding a Hamas terrorist graduation ceremony. The badly bleeding Hamas countered by firing dozens of Qassam rockets and Grad (Katyusha) missiles.

At 2:10 PM, while I was walking home from my Shabbat afternoon hitbodedut (personal prayer session), the Color-Red Warning Siren went off for the first time in Ashdod. An unconfirmed report here said that a Grad missile fell in the sand dunes about a mile south of the southern entrance to Ashdod, near a shopping mall that's open on Shabbat. Grad missiles also fell for the first time in Kiryat Gat. Beber Vaknin of blessed memory was killed in Netivot. More than 80 missiles and mortar shells rained on communities here in the south of Israel. One synagogue received a direct hit.

Now is the time for unity. We pray that Hashem gives our leaders the necessary wisdom to make the best decisions. We also pray for the success and safety of our soldiers as well as for the welfare of our citizens within rocket range from Gaza.

I have a feeling that's difficult to substantiate or to put into words; my heart tells me that Operation Cast Lead is a significant stepping stone toward the full redemption of our people. Time will tell.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Sat Dec 27 21:07:14 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:07:14 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] WAR ESCALATION.
In-Reply-To: <4956E632.5080401@westnet.com.au>
References: <4956E632.5080401@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <200812280307.mBS377Cs029662@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>

Friends,

The recent onslaught of prayers for Rudy had demonstrated that we can 
hang together to do something.  True, that is all we can do now, 
given our numbers, our disunity, and the state of our formation as we 
are coming out of our graves in the Valley of Dry Bones.  We do not 
have the numbers, the population and the means to take up arms and 
drop some daisy cutters on the lying murderers that should have been 
expelled millennia ago from the Land.

On the other hand, it was a dedicated few that started the armed 
conflict against the Hellenists murderers and their quislings over 
whom we now celebrate the G-d-lead triumph of our people.  Let us 
entreat our G-d on behalf of our people, that the armed conflict that 
has begun in Gaza may be empowered by the same Spirit that afforded 
triumph to the Maccabees.  Let's enlist now!! Let us join those 
already in the conflict and escalate our prayers with  "proportionate 
response."

Steve





At 06:36 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:
>Shavua Tov Chaverim.
>
>the escalation in Southern Israel / Gaza has begun.......
>
>
>
>Disproportionate Response - - - - - - - posted by Akiva - - 
>12/27/2008 06:58:00 PM ET
>
>
>
>by Reb Akiva at <http://mysticalpaths.blogspot.com>Mystical Paths
>
>As I stepped out of shul late this morning for a bit of air, I heard 
>an extended series of rolling BOOMs. Not being familiar with the 
>sound of WAR, I paused and wondered what was it? Kind of like an 
>earthquake, but no ground motion. Sort of like a sonic boom, but it 
>just kept going.
>
>I exited Shabbos to find the Israeli southern border battle 
>escalated. What southern border battle you ask? For those who don't 
>follow the news closely, southern Israeli towns, villages, and 
>cities have been under ROCKET and MISSILE attack for the past 7 
>YEARS. In the past year southern Israel has been hit with 3,000 
>(!!!!) rockets or missiles. IN THE PAST WEEK, 200 (!!!!!!!).
>
>The world once again hears the cry of DISPROPORTIONATE RESPONSE 
>(whatever the heck that means). Dear World, you are absolutely 
>correct! Israel has been hit 3,000 times in the past year and has 
>hit back 100 times. Indeed, Israel has NOT been defending itself 
>proportionately!
>
>Perhaps that has begun to change.
>
>Don't forget, dear World (though you will), Hamas chose NOT to renew 
>the (not) truce. (Not truce? 3,000 attacks is NOT a truce even if 
>the Israeli politicians were willing to pretend it was.) Hamas 
>decided they couldn't tolerate ONLY making an average of 57 attacks 
>a week (that's only [???] 8 per day), not enough Jews being killed, 
>maimed, or terrorized.
>
>The poor little crazed homicidal barbaric murderous killer is not 
>the injured party here.
>
>World, you will conveniently forget that. You will demand instant 
>secession of hostilities (that never stop from the Arab side). You 
>will demand Israel feed, cloth, keep the power, phone, and water on, 
>deliver oil, gas, and all normal services of civilization while 
>under constant bombardment and while the delivery people are 
>attacked and killed.
>
>There are only 3 possible explanations for this:
>
>1. You buy into Palestinian propaganda much as you bought into 
>Hitler's y"s propaganda. That ended really well last time, didn't 
>it? (Really bad for the Jews, but Europe didn't exactly come out in 
>good shape.)
>
>2. You truly have fallen for the completely liberal super-civilized 
>ideals of being kind to the enemy and it all being a 
>misunderstanding that can be calmly worked out (and anyone who isn't 
>doing so is the bad guy). If true, it will be interesting to watch 
>you flounder dealing with a resurgent Russia and aggressive Muslim 
>immigrant population. Somehow I don't think a strongly worded letter 
>will be sufficient. If history has any lessons, you may want to read 
>up on the fall of the Roman empire.
>
>3. Esav hates Yaakov. In other words, anti-semitism. You truly do 
>hate Israel for the fact that it's Jewish and are quite happy to undermine it.
>
>Dear World, fortunately I don't trust in you. If one should pursue a 
>thousand, and two - ten-thousand, or G-d forbid the reverse, can one 
>fail to see the hand of the King of kings?
>
>Trust in your chariots and horses, in your economies and politics.
>
>We will trust in Hashem (G-d).
>
>May HaShem's Rachamin be roused together with his justice and righteousness.
>May His Name be glorified.
>
>Shalom v'Ahavah
>JOE.
>_______________________________________________
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 27 21:25:34 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:25:34 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] WAR ESCALATION.
In-Reply-To: <4956E632.5080401@westnet.com.au>
	<200812280307.mBS377Cs029662@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <4956E632.5080401@westnet.com.au>
	<200812280307.mBS377Cs029662@mail383c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS1071AD19DFE1A5681933E8BAE90@phx.gbl>

ALL GLORY TO HASHEM.......................YES, ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY YES!!!!!!!...........LET'S ENLIST NOW, STANDING ALONGSIDE OUR BROTHERS IN THIS STRUGGLE OF THE AGES!!!!!!!!

May our prayers be united, and may they be heard on High as we enter this conflict, fighting with mighty warfare intercession of PROPORTIONATE RESPONSE!!!!!!

Let's fall to our knees, and call to our G-d, O Israel!

Avigail






From: Steve Mathe 
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:07 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] WAR ESCALATION.


Friends, 

The recent onslaught of prayers for Rudy had demonstrated that we can hang together to do something.  True, that is all we can do now, given our numbers, our disunity, and the state of our formation as we are coming out of our graves in the Valley of Dry Bones.  We do not have the numbers, the population and the means to take up arms and drop some daisy cutters on the lying murderers that should have been expelled millennia ago from the Land. 

On the other hand, it was a dedicated few that started the armed conflict against the Hellenists murderers and their quislings over whom we now celebrate the G-d-lead triumph of our people.  Let us entreat our G-d on behalf of our people, that the armed conflict that has begun in Gaza may be empowered by the same Spirit that afforded triumph to the Maccabees.  Let's enlist now!! Let us join those already in the conflict and escalate our prayers with  "proportionate response." 

Steve





At 06:36 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:

  Shavua Tov Chaverim.

  the escalation in Southern Israel / Gaza has begun.......



  Disproportionate Response - - - - - - - posted by Akiva - - 12/27/2008 06:58:00 PM ET 


  by Reb Akiva at Mystical Paths

  As I stepped out of shul late this morning for a bit of air, I heard an extended series of rolling BOOMs. Not being familiar with the sound of WAR, I paused and wondered what was it? Kind of like an earthquake, but no ground motion. Sort of like a sonic boom, but it just kept going.

  I exited Shabbos to find the Israeli southern border battle escalated. What southern border battle you ask? For those who don't follow the news closely, southern Israeli towns, villages, and cities have been under ROCKET and MISSILE attack for the past 7 YEARS. In the past year southern Israel has been hit with 3,000 (!!!!) rockets or missiles. IN THE PAST WEEK, 200 (!!!!!!!).

  The world once again hears the cry of DISPROPORTIONATE RESPONSE (whatever the heck that means). Dear World, you are absolutely correct! Israel has been hit 3,000 times in the past year and has hit back 100 times. Indeed, Israel has NOT been defending itself proportionately!

  Perhaps that has begun to change.

  Don't forget, dear World (though you will), Hamas chose NOT to renew the (not) truce. (Not truce? 3,000 attacks is NOT a truce even if the Israeli politicians were willing to pretend it was.) Hamas decided they couldn't tolerate ONLY making an average of 57 attacks a week (that's only [???] 8 per day), not enough Jews being killed, maimed, or terrorized.

  The poor little crazed homicidal barbaric murderous killer is not the injured party here.

  World, you will conveniently forget that. You will demand instant secession of hostilities (that never stop from the Arab side). You will demand Israel feed, cloth, keep the power, phone, and water on, deliver oil, gas, and all normal services of civilization while under constant bombardment and while the delivery people are attacked and killed.

  There are only 3 possible explanations for this:

  1. You buy into Palestinian propaganda much as you bought into Hitler's y"s propaganda. That ended really well last time, didn't it? (Really bad for the Jews, but Europe didn't exactly come out in good shape.)

  2. You truly have fallen for the completely liberal super-civilized ideals of being kind to the enemy and it all being a misunderstanding that can be calmly worked out (and anyone who isn't doing so is the bad guy). If true, it will be interesting to watch you flounder dealing with a resurgent Russia and aggressive Muslim immigrant population. Somehow I don't think a strongly worded letter will be sufficient. If history has any lessons, you may want to read up on the fall of the Roman empire.

  3. Esav hates Yaakov. In other words, anti-semitism. You truly do hate Israel for the fact that it's Jewish and are quite happy to undermine it.

  Dear World, fortunately I don't trust in you. If one should pursue a thousand, and two - ten-thousand, or G-d forbid the reverse, can one fail to see the hand of the King of kings? 

  Trust in your chariots and horses, in your economies and politics.

  We will trust in Hashem (G-d).

  May HaShem's Rachamin be roused together with his justice and righteousness.
  May His Name be glorified.

  Shalom v'Ahavah
  JOE.
  _______________________________________________


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 21:34:34 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:34:34 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] No to Guilt for Israel (from 1984)
Message-ID: <855590370812271934t235086b3iee555b1f6db7a5ea@mail.gmail.com>

>From my teacher, Of Blessed Memory...May HaShem avenge his blood
                * Hanoch*
**
Spring 5744 ? 1984  Rav Meir Kahane

*NO TO GUILT FOR ISRAEL*

There is a specter haunting Israel and its American Jewish
supporters. It is called guilt. Guilt over the "repression of
Palestinian human rights." Guilt over the refusal to remove "the main
obstacle to peace in the Middle East, the "occupation of Arab land
seized in 1967." Guilt over the unwillingness to give the
"Palestinians" their own state in the "occupied lands." And now,
guilt over the killing of "Palestinians" and "innocent civilians in
Lebanon."

It is a powerful weapon, this guilt; Jews have a difficult
time coping with it. A people that has been the most debased of
losers for 2,000 years finds it difficult to cope with victory. It
finds it extraordinarily difficult to remain normal. It inherits
insecurities, complexes, guilt. It begins to believe its enemies
slander. It loses its self-respect and longs for the love of a hating
world. It is important that those who have retained their self-esteem
and some Jewish survival speak out against the disease of guilt and
moral insecurity.

No guilt. Are the lands of 1967, "occupied" by the Jews,
the main obstacle to peace? Is the year 1967 the origin of the
conflict? How peaceful it must have been in 1966, when Sinai and Gaza
were in Egyptian hands and the Golan was possessed by the Syrians to
shell for 19 years the Jewish settlements below, and when
Judea-Samaria (the "West Bank") and East Jerusalem were in the hands
of the "moderate" King Hussein. Why did they all go to war? What did
they want then? When one has East Jerusalem and attacks Israel, can
it be that he desires, West Jerusalem? And Tel Aviv?

And what did they wish in 1947 when they rejected the
"Palestine" state offered them by the United Nations and went to war,
killing fully 1 percent of the population? And what did they wish in
the riots of 1936-38 when there was no country called Israel and they
murdered more than 500 Jews? And in 1929 when no "Zionist occupation
troops" were in Hebron, why did the "Palestinians" rise up to murder
67 Jews in one day? And why the pogroms in Jerusalem and Jaffa in
1920 and 1921?

What troubles the Arabs is the very presence of large
numbers of Jews in the land, Israel of any size, Zionism. That is
what troubles the Arabs. That is the obstacle to peace. Let us
inscribe that on our hearts lest we open the doors to a repetition ?
on ? a grand scale ? of that which the Arabs have done to Jews since
1920. And the bearers of guilt would do just that.

No guilt. There is one sublime reason why we should not
give up a centimeter of land: It belongs to us!

If we have no right to Judea-Samaria, then we indeed have
no right to Tel Aviv. Abraham did not walk on Dizengoff Street, nor
did our ancestors live in the Israeli cities that were built in the
20th century. But Abraham, who lived in Hebron, and Jacob in Shechem,
now Nablus, and David in Bethlehem are the 'sole legitimate reasons
that Jews can lay claim to a Tel Aviv and the kibbutzim of the
guilt-ridden left. The land belongs to us because the G-d of Israel,
Creator and Titleholder of all lands, gave it to us.

No guilt. There is no such thing as a "Palestinian
people." They are Arabs, part of the Arab nation, possessors of 21
lands. Let them live in peace in any or all of them. but, there are
no "Palestinians."

It was the Roman emperor Hadrian who, after the Jewish
revolt against the Romans, angrily erased the name of the state,
Judea, and invented the name "Palestine," after the Philistines. In
every normal case, an existing people gives its name to a land. The
Franks named it France and the Angles, England, and the Germanics,
Germany. Only in this ludicrous case does a Roman invent a name, give
it to a land, and the arriving Arab trespassers become "Palestinians."
One presumes that had Hadrian not changed the name, Israel would
today be fighting Yasir Arafat and the Judean terrorists.

No guilt. The "Palestinians" civilians in Lebanon cheered
and supported every Palestine Liberation Organization murder and
shelling of Jewish towns. They are united in hatred of Israel. It
would be nice if they were not mingled with the P.L.O., but they are.
And if the only way to destroy the terrorists is by shellings and
bombings that take the lives of people who cheer our death, we have no
choice. I wonder how many mourned and protested the killing of German
civilians during World War II bombings of Berlin, Hamburg and Dresden?
And Gen. Yekutiel Adam was gunned down and murdered by a 14-year-old
"innocent Palestinian child."

No guilt. There is nothing ethical about dying or
anything moral about another Holocaust. There is nothing immoral
about winning and nothing necessarily noble in a loser. Let us cast
off the chains of guilt and reject the accusations of its bearers.
The greatness of Judaism is its spirit, but no spirit can survive
without a living body.

No guilt. Rather faith, pride, strength and the love of
Jews rather than the enemy who would destroy them. That is sanity,
that is Judaism.
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From sandrainglis at bigpond.com  Sun Dec 28 00:30:33 2008
From: sandrainglis at bigpond.com (Sandra Inglis)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:30:33 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom Everyone
Message-ID: <4474D1FD25434B529A1A43D3547DA7D4@SPLITPIN>

Shalom Everyone,

I am new to this list. I hope I will get to know all of you and become an active participant on the list. For now I prefer to read what everyone else has to say so forgive me if I do not reply to your emails.

I would like to say that even though I do not know Rudy, I am glad that his surgery went well.

I have a question regarding the war in Israel. Do you think this prophecy is being fulfilled at this time? 

Zechariah 10:3-5 Mine anger is kindled against the shepherds, and I will punish the he-goats; for YeHoWaH of hosts hath remembered His flock the house of Judah, and maketh them as His majestic horse in the battle. Out of them shall come forth the corner-stone, out of them the stake, out of them the battle bow, out of them every master together. And they shall be as mighty men, treading down in the mire of the streets in the battle, and they shall fight, because YeHoWaH is with them; and the riders on horses shall be confounded. 

Shalom,

Sandra.
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 07:24:44 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 05:24:44 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom Everyone
In-Reply-To: <4474D1FD25434B529A1A43D3547DA7D4@SPLITPIN>
References: <4474D1FD25434B529A1A43D3547DA7D4@SPLITPIN>
Message-ID: <855590370812280524g48b42ecek94ec7c8a80d85454@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Sandra - Baruch Haba (Welcome)!

    I hate to sound terribly cynical, but since "Humanitarian aid" was
ALREADY allowed into Gaza by Israel, I am very doubtful that this will be a
'major war.'

    It seems to me, after studying the Israeli political landscape that it's
a move to bolster Kadima in the polls AND to elevate the status of Ehud
Barak (Labor), the Minister of Defense.

    However, once things like this have started, they can take on a momentum
of their own...so it still may turn out to be one of prophetic
significance.  We shall see...

    Meanwhile we pray, not just for our soldiers, but the countless
defenseless civilians, sitting in their homes...just trying to live their
lives..

    B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel),
            * Hanoch

*
On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Sandra Inglis <sandrainglis at bigpond.com>wrote:

>  Shalom Everyone,
>
> I am new to this list. I hope I will get to know all of you and become an
> active participant on the list. For now I prefer to read what everyone else
> has to say so forgive me if I do not reply to your emails.
>
> I would like to say that even though I do not know Rudy, I am glad that his
> surgery went well.
>
> I have a question regarding the war in Israel. Do you think this prophecy
> is being fulfilled at this time?
> **
> *Zechariah 10:3-5* Mine anger is kindled against the shepherds, and I will
> punish the he-goats; for YeHoWaH of hosts hath remembered His flock the
> house of Judah, and maketh them as His majestic horse in the battle. Out
> of them shall come forth the corner-stone, out of them the stake, out of
> them the battle bow, out of them every master together. And they shall be
> as mighty men, treading down in the mire of the streets in the battle, and
> they shall fight, because YeHoWaH is with them; and the riders on horses
> shall be confounded.
>
> Shalom,
>
> Sandra.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 07:40:43 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 05:40:43 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Us or them: The Chanukah War'
Message-ID: <855590370812280540k2f3f715bubb67295e4d0673a7@mail.gmail.com>

  [image: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/]<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
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Us or Them: The Chanukah War Tevet 1, 5769, 28 December 08 11:09
by by Naomi Ragen

(IsraelNN.com) As night fell, and we lit our Chanukah candles, we were
filled with new hope; as our government finally undertook its basic
responsibility towards its citizens and launched the long-delayed IDF strike
against Hamas terrorists in Gaza.

We were overjoyed that our planes had caught the Hamas murderers completely
off-guard. They managed a magnificent coordinated attack on major Hamas
military and police outposts that took minutes and did major damage. This
included a strike on the swearing-in ceremony at the end of a Hamas military
training program, sending all the "graduates" to an early martyrdom before
they could use their training to kill more Israeli children. It left us
proud and joyful.

Our news program showed us the home of a couple in southern Israel that had
been completely destroyed by an unprovoked rocket attack this afternoon. The
woman of the house, Aviva, was interviewed. She was asked if she agreed with
the IDF strikes on Gaza that would provoke rocket attacks. With complete
calm she said if this was the price the citizens of Israel had to pay for
bringing peace and security back to southern Israel, it was a price she was
willing to pay.

Later, Aviva and her husband, who miraculously escaped injury, lit Chanukah
candles in their rubble-filled living room. When they said the blessing, "He
who did miracles in days of old and in our own time," it gave us all a sense
of renewed faith.

The map showing which parts of Israel are now endangered, and which
residents will have to spend the next few weeks in security rooms, is a
startling fulfillment of the predictions of all those who begged that the
Disengagement not take place. No longer is it just the citizens of Sderot.
With the homes of the brave residents of Gush Katif destroyed, and the
Philadelphi corridor no longer patrolled by the IDF, unlimited sophisticated
equipment has been pouring into Hamas hands for years. Now, the rockets are
falling in Netivot and Ashkelon, and threatening Kiryat Gat.

Just for some masochistic fun, I turned from the Israeli news to BBC. Of
course, they were interviewing some Hamas spokesman talking about "Israeli
atrocities, massacres, slaughter," etc. etc. But even Fox News had some
blond bimbo repeating similar things from her "Palestinian source." It's not
Israel's bad PR. It's the desire of the media to listen to the terrorists
and sympathize with them. They are the ones who decide who to interview.
Just shut off your televisions. Don't read the newspapers. Hopefully, Israel
is going to finish them off this time.

Even the leftists, like Amos Oz, who usually lives in the Land of Oz when it
comes to fighting against terror, seems to understand this, and has come out
in favor of self-defense. Wow. Amazing. A leftist who believes Israel
shouldn't commit suicide. That didn't stop three hundred leftists from
marching in Tel Aviv to protest. I suggest we send them all to Sderot to
live for the next few weeks. I also worry about our other fifth column,
Israeli Arabs. There were Molotov cocktails thrown at police patrols in
eastern Jerusalem, and Arabs marching in Nazareth and other places. We
should send them all to Gaza to be with their "brethren."

Also last night, memorial services were held for the Chabad rabbi and his
wife killed in Mumbai. With the recent release of photographs of how Mumbai
terrorists sexually mutilated their victims in the hotels, we cannot cry for
dead terrorists. Evidence is mounting that the residents of Chabad house
were tortured more than other hostages. In light of this, I say with no
hesitation that the world would be a better place if every Muslim terrorist
- Hamas, PLO, Al-Qaeda, Taliban (who are now threatening to kill any
Pakistani girl who goes to school), and Janjaweed (who have slaughtered and
raped their way through Darfur) were sent to their Allah and their 72
virgins immediately.

As for civilian casualties, Hamas only targets civilians. And their
"civilians" elected them, after all. If their civilians get hurt because
their elected government decided to end the ceasefire and put rocket
launchers inside their neighborhoods, whose fault is that? In the war that
Hamas declared, it remains us or them. I prefer them.

I have one wish: that every reporter, every pundit, every media outlet
presenting Israel's just and long-delayed war against terrorists in Gaza as
a brutal, unjustified "slaughter of innocents" find themselves personally
involved with terrorists at some point in their lives.
 www.IsraelNationalNews.com <http://www.israelnationalnews.com/>
(c) Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 28 10:30:39 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:30:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Us or them: The Chanukah War'
In-Reply-To: <855590370812280540k2f3f715bubb67295e4d0673a7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855590370812280540k2f3f715bubb67295e4d0673a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL119-DS231ED7CDA1B7D1F10B141FBAE90@phx.gbl>

I love Naomi Ragen.   What a magnificent summary this is.  When a world and its media no longer have simple, common sense, one who does shines in the darkness like the Chanukah candles she is lighting.

May HaShem protect His Own from those who are not His,

Avigail/Pat




From: Hanoch Young 
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:40 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] 'Us or them: The Chanukah War'


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Us or Them: The Chanukah War
Tevet 1, 5769, 28 December 08 11:09by by Naomi Ragen
(IsraelNN.com) As night fell, and we lit our Chanukah candles, we were filled with new hope; as our government finally undertook its basic responsibility towards its citizens and launched the long-delayed IDF strike against Hamas terrorists in Gaza.

We were overjoyed that our planes had caught the Hamas murderers completely off-guard. They managed a magnificent coordinated attack on major Hamas military and police outposts that took minutes and did major damage. This included a strike on the swearing-in ceremony at the end of a Hamas military training program, sending all the "graduates" to an early martyrdom before they could use their training to kill more Israeli children. It left us proud and joyful.

Our news program showed us the home of a couple in southern Israel that had been completely destroyed by an unprovoked rocket attack this afternoon. The woman of the house, Aviva, was interviewed. She was asked if she agreed with the IDF strikes on Gaza that would provoke rocket attacks. With complete calm she said if this was the price the citizens of Israel had to pay for bringing peace and security back to southern Israel, it was a price she was willing to pay. 

Later, Aviva and her husband, who miraculously escaped injury, lit Chanukah candles in their rubble-filled living room. When they said the blessing, "He who did miracles in days of old and in our own time," it gave us all a sense of renewed faith.

The map showing which parts of Israel are now endangered, and which residents will have to spend the next few weeks in security rooms, is a startling fulfillment of the predictions of all those who begged that the Disengagement not take place. No longer is it just the citizens of Sderot. With the homes of the brave residents of Gush Katif destroyed, and the Philadelphi corridor no longer patrolled by the IDF, unlimited sophisticated equipment has been pouring into Hamas hands for years. Now, the rockets are falling in Netivot and Ashkelon, and threatening Kiryat Gat.

Just for some masochistic fun, I turned from the Israeli news to BBC. Of course, they were interviewing some Hamas spokesman talking about "Israeli atrocities, massacres, slaughter," etc. etc. But even Fox News had some blond bimbo repeating similar things from her "Palestinian source." It's not Israel's bad PR. It's the desire of the media to listen to the terrorists and sympathize with them. They are the ones who decide who to interview. Just shut off your televisions. Don't read the newspapers. Hopefully, Israel is going to finish them off this time. 

Even the leftists, like Amos Oz, who usually lives in the Land of Oz when it comes to fighting against terror, seems to understand this, and has come out in favor of self-defense. Wow. Amazing. A leftist who believes Israel shouldn't commit suicide. That didn't stop three hundred leftists from marching in Tel Aviv to protest. I suggest we send them all to Sderot to live for the next few weeks. I also worry about our other fifth column, Israeli Arabs. There were Molotov cocktails thrown at police patrols in eastern Jerusalem, and Arabs marching in Nazareth and other places. We should send them all to Gaza to be with their "brethren."

Also last night, memorial services were held for the Chabad rabbi and his wife killed in Mumbai. With the recent release of photographs of how Mumbai terrorists sexually mutilated their victims in the hotels, we cannot cry for dead terrorists. Evidence is mounting that the residents of Chabad house were tortured more than other hostages. In light of this, I say with no hesitation that the world would be a better place if every Muslim terrorist - Hamas, PLO, Al-Qaeda, Taliban (who are now threatening to kill any Pakistani girl who goes to school), and Janjaweed (who have slaughtered and raped their way through Darfur) were sent to their Allah and their 72 virgins immediately. 

As for civilian casualties, Hamas only targets civilians. And their "civilians" elected them, after all. If their civilians get hurt because their elected government decided to end the ceasefire and put rocket launchers inside their neighborhoods, whose fault is that? In the war that Hamas declared, it remains us or them. I prefer them.

I have one wish: that every reporter, every pundit, every media outlet presenting Israel's just and long-delayed war against terrorists in Gaza as a brutal, unjustified "slaughter of innocents" find themselves personally involved with terrorists at some point in their lives.

www.IsraelNationalNews.com? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com


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From webhulon at msn.com  Sun Dec 28 12:42:49 2008
From: webhulon at msn.com (Ronnie Hulon)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:42:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Lights in our dwellings
In-Reply-To: <49508534.7060704@westnet.com.au>
References: <49508534.7060704@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W945EBFF1FF53BEC7DCF40C5E90@phx.gbl>


Shalom all,
 
This is a short teaching that I will be sharing at our community Chanukah party this evening.  
 
Exod 10:21-23
21        Then YHWH said to Moshe, "Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, darkness which may even be felt."
22        So Moses stretched out his hand toward heaven, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days.
23        They did not see one another; nor did anyone rise from his place for three days. But all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
 
What kind of darkness can be felt? Depression.  
 
Depression is often a result of concentrating on ourselves.  It may come from focusing on what we are missing or what we have lost or what we wish we had or many other selfish longings.  We can see this in this passage.  Speaking of the Egyptians cursed by the darkness, Moshe writes: ?They did not see one another.?
 
In Hebrew it says ?Lo'- raa'uw 'iysh 'et- 'aachiyw? - no man saw or perceived his brother.  
 
Leviticus 19:18 says:
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am YHWH.
 
There is no way that we can ?not see our brother? and still love our neighbor as ourself.
 
The cure to the darkness and depression of self is to see our brothers and sisters.  See them and serve them.  It is hard to be depressed when you are serving someone else.
 
We see that in the houses of the Yisraelites we had the opposite situation: ?But all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.?
 
We can overcome the darkness in our lives by serving one another, by dwelling together in unity.
 
May your dwellings be filled with light as you kindle the lights of Chanukah.
Web Hulon



_________________________________________________________________
It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008
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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 28 15:23:12 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:23:12 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] RUDY
Message-ID: <COL119-DS10C6A0244143BA1756416CBAE90@phx.gbl>

Thank you, Chaverim (dear friends), for your continued prayers for Rudy.  I realize that most don't know him, but if you did, you would love this man who has been through so much.  He is still in the ICU, in critical condition, and still in need of our prayers.  This heart surgery has been more difficult for him than it would normally be because he has other health issues.  His kidneys are a major concern, and our prayers are urgently needed still.  

Love,

Pat
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Dec 28 15:41:35 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 07:41:35 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RUDY]
Message-ID: <4957F28F.6050600@westnet.com.au>

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Subject: [Dialogue] RUDY
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From jid at westnet.com.au  Sun Dec 28 18:00:53 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (Joe Indomenico)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:00:53 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] TZAFRIR RONEN.
Message-ID: <49581335.8070709@westnet.com.au>

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 28 19:55:58 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:55:58 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Tonight's Class 
Message-ID: <COL119-DS208484FD6C31F9F7EF67C8BAE60@phx.gbl>

Thank you, Ross, for the wonderful teaching tonight.  ~Pat

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 20:59:41 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:59:41 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] TZAFRIR RONEN.
In-Reply-To: <49581335.8070709@westnet.com.au>
References: <49581335.8070709@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <855590370812281859x453157eew70825f1321420989@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom Joe -

   Thanks for passing this on..I actually was in the audience that evening @
Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem, this past March.  One of those 'quirks of
fate' we all keep talking about.

     He was an amazing man, and a true inspiration.  May his name always be
remembered for a blessing.  A tremendous loss for all of Klal Yisrael.

          * Hanoch
*
On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Joe Indomenico <jid at westnet.com.au> wrote:

> *Shalom Chaverim,
>
> Tzafrir Ronen passed away over the weekend at the young age of 53.
>
> Many of you do not know him or his cause.
>
> Sit back and be surprised what this left wing Israeli Kibbutznic has to
> say. Please listen to his interview.
> He will be  missed. He bridged the divide between the secular and the
> religious under the banner of brotherhood and unity.
>
> Oh to have more men like him on the secular side.
>
>  *http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129061
>
> *Shalom v'Ahavah
> JOE.*
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon Dec 29 09:32:02 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:32:02 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] In the end, you always have to deal with Hamas
In-Reply-To: <855590370812281859x453157eew70825f1321420989@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49581335.8070709@westnet.com.au>
	<855590370812281859x453157eew70825f1321420989@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009301c969ca$9aa5b0b0$cff11210$@com>

In the end, you always have to deal with Hamas

It may be politically necessary for Israel to respond to Hamas? outrages
with bombs, even an invasion ... but the end is the same. 

By Shlomo Ben-Ami

Tuesday, Dec 30, 2008, Page 9 

With barrages of Kassam rockets being launched daily on Israeli towns from
the Hamas-ruled Gaza strip and Israeli politicians competing over who would
offer the harshest response, the question for Israel today has been reduced
to whether or not to invade. But neither side is free of contradictions, and
both are trapped in a seemingly insoluble conundrum. 

As a government, Hamas is to be judged by its capacity to provide security
and decent governance to Gaza?s population, but as a movement it is
incapable of betraying its unyielding commitment to fight the Israeli
occupier to the death. After all, Hamas was not elected to make peace with
Israel, nor to improve relations with the US. However encouraging some
sporadic signs of a shift toward political realism might be, it is not on
Hamas? immediate agenda to betray its raison d??tre by endorsing the US-led
Annapolis peace process.

Hamas? offensive is not an attempt to draw Israel into a costly invasion
that might shake its regime. Rather, it is a move aimed at establishing a
balance of threat based on sustaining a low-intensity conflict even if a new
lull is agreed upon.

A now increasingly arrogant and extremely well armed Hamas expects such a
lull to be agreed upon only in exchange for new concessions from both Israel
and Egypt. These include the opening of Gaza?s borders, including the
Egyptian-controlled Rafah crossing, the release of Hamas detainees in Egypt,
the suspension of Israeli operations against Hamas activists in the West
Bank, and the right to respond to any perceived Israeli violation of the
ceasefire.

But Hamas? brinkmanship is a dangerous exercise, for a low-intensity
conflict can easily degenerate into an all-out flare-up if its rockets cause
a politically unbearable number of casualties on the Israeli side. In fact,
Israel?s top leaders have already approved the army?s plans for an invasion
of Gaza, with the timing and the nature of the casus belli left open.

Hamas is playing with fire on the Egyptian front, too, having haughtily
interrupted the Egyptian-led reconciliation process with Mahmoud Abbas?
Palestinian Liberation Organization and pledging to derail the Egyptian and
Saudi initiative to extend Abbas? presidential term until 2010. Hamas has
made clear its intention to appoint as president the Palestinian parliament
speaker ? a Hamas member now in an Israeli prison ? once Abbas? presidency
ends on Jan. 9.

Hamas radicalism is not devoid of a political purpose ? to bury whatever
remains of the two-state solution. The meager results of the Oslo peace
process are regarded by Hamas as vindication of its consistent view that the
Oslo accords were doomed to failure, and that Israel and the US never
intended to respect the minimal requirements of Palestinian nationalism.

But while Hamas has never been indifferent to daily political calculations,
nor is it confined to them. A fundamentally religious movement for whom the
future belongs to Islam, Hamas sees itself as being engaged in a long-term
armed struggle for the liberation of all of Palestine.

Nor is the movement?s brinkmanship entirely irrational, for the legacy of
Israel?s abortive attempt in 2006 to destroy Hezbollah is that, for the
first time in the country?s history, the military establishment is
advocating restraint and actively curbing the more hawkish measures being
proposed in Cabinet meetings. Israel?s reluctance to invade Gaza stems from
a sober analysis of the meaning of such a move. Indeed, Defense Minister
Ehud Barak, the Labor Party leader, might be ready to pay a high political
price during an electoral season by accepting even a new lull that is
intermittently violated by Hamas.

The invasion of such a small and densely populated strip of land where
civilians have been systematically used by Hamas as human shields is bound
to expose Israel?s military to accusations of war crimes.

However justified Israel?s action might be, and however critical of Hamas?
repressive regime the international community might be, it will not take
long before the wide media coverage of civilian casualties will put Israel,
not Hamas, in the dock of world opinion. Moreover, reoccupation of Gaza
would force Israel to reassume full and exclusive responsibility for the 1.5
million Palestinians now under Hamas control.

But even if Israel is ready to pay the price of harsh international
condemnation, it is not clear what ?success? in such a war really means. Is
toppling the Hamas regime a realistic option? Ismail Haniyeh?s government
might collapse, but Hamas would remain a powerful indigenous Palestinian
organization around which the population would certainly rally. And even
under renewed occupation, with Israeli armored divisions deployed throughout
the strip, Kassam missiles might still be launched ? the ultimate
humiliation for the occupier.

And, finally, after a mortal blow had been dealt to whatever remains of the
peace process, and cemeteries in Israel and in devastated Gaza are again
filled with new casualties, Israel would want to withdraw and negotiate yet
another ceasefire with 
 the same Hamas.

Shlomo Ben-Ami is a former Israeli foreign minister and the vice president
of the Toledo International Center for Peace. He is the author of Scars of
War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli-Arab Tragedy.

COPYRIGHT: PROJECT SYNDICATE 

 

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From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 29 18:37:06 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:37:06 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Prayers Answered for Rudy!
Message-ID: <COL119-DS1875F75671A9FBB954AB30BAE70@phx.gbl>

Heard from Linda (Rudy's wife) this evening.  HaShem has answered the precious prayers of His people and Rudy is much improved!!!  In fact, Linda said that his Cardiologist told him today, "You are unbelievable and actually I have to say that you are a MIRACLE!  I've never seen anyone going in with your risks who would ever be this far ahead in recovery."

BARUCH HASHEM!!!!! OUR G-D REIGNS!!!!!!!  

Thank you all so much, and please do still remember Rudy as the L-RD brings him to your mind.

Love,

Pat
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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 21:07:10 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:07:10 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] Time for a Modern-Day Hanukka Miracle in Gaza
Message-ID: <855590370812291907t1c94716ch52f2c4f6c3696531@mail.gmail.com>

Time for a Modern-day Hanukka Miracle in Gaza

Michael Freund - Dec 29, 2008
The Jerusalem Post


It is Hanukka, the festival of lights, when Jews around the world gather
together each night and celebrate the miracles performed for our ancestors
two millennia ago during the great Hasmonean revolt against the Seleucid
tyrant Antiochus.

We are all familiar with the outlines of the story, of how a band of Jewish
freedom-fighters known as the Maccabees restored our national and religious
sovereignty. Guided by the hand of divine providence, Mattathias the high
priest and his courageous sons defeated the Syrian-Greek occupiers, purified
the Temple in Jerusalem and established a dynasty that lasted for 103 years.


But that is not all the Maccabees succeeded in accomplishing. There is
another, lesser-known feat to their credit, one that most of us are probably
oblivious to, but which is nonetheless worth recalling now, especially in
light of the ongoing Hamas attacks on the Negev. Believe it or not, but the
Maccabees liberated Gaza, subdued its hostile population and settled the
area with Jews, reincorporating it into the ancient state of Israel.

Now there's a historical lesson which we desperately need to learn.

IN THE year 145 BCE, some two decades after the events we commemorate on
Hanukka, the Hasmonean king, Jonathan, brother of Judah the Maccabee,
attacked the area and pacified it, forcing Gaza's residents to sue for
peace. The story is right there in the First Book of Maccabees (11:62).

Subsequently, however, Gaza continued to vex the Jews of Israel, leading
Simon the Maccabee, who succeeded Jonathan two years later, to continue what
his brother had begun.

"In those days, Simon camped against Gaza and besieged it round about," the
Book of Maccabees (13:43) tells us, adding, "He made also an engine of war
and set it by the city, and battered a certain tower and took it."

Simon's soldiers "that were in the engine" then entered Gaza city, which
quickly led the hostile population to beg for peace, appealing to him to
"deal not with us according to our wickedness but according to your mercy."

Simon agreed, but not before taking a series of measures to try and ensure
that Gaza would never again pose a threat to its neighbors. Among these, he
"placed such men there as would keep the law, and made it stronger than it
was before," essentially reimposing security on the unruly strip of land.

Simon also sent Jews to settle the area, and he even built himself a home in
Gaza, as if to underline the fact that the Jewish people had every intention
of remaining.

NOW, MORE than ever, this part of our history should resonate with each and
every one of us, as the joy of Hanukka this year is being marred for tens of
thousands of our fellow Israelis living in the shadow of Hamas rocket fire
from Gaza.

Over the weekend, Palestinian terrorists launched 40 Kassams and mortar
shells from Gaza, bringing the total number of such projectiles fired at us
since the start of the year to more than 2,900. That is an average of eight
rockets per day, every day, since January 1.

This is simply intolerable.

And the threat which it poses to Israel only continues to grow.

On Sunday, Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) director Yuval Diskin told the
weekly cabinet meeting that Hamas has increased the range of its arsenal,
which can now reach as far as Kiryat Gat, Ashdod and even the outskirts of
Beersheba. Does anyone doubt that it will continue to extend its
capabilities? Must we wait patiently with our hands folded until Tel Aviv is
in the crosshairs?

Every day that passes without action only increases the danger, allowing
Hamas to further refine and improve its lethal store of weapons.

Concerted and prolonged military action must be taken now. The time has come
for us to follow in the footsteps of our ancestors the Maccabees and to
subjugate Gaza once and for all.

We should reassert complete military control over the area, topple the Hamas
regime and put its leaders on trial for war crimes.

And while we are at it, let's correct the catastrophic error of the
expulsion of Gaza's Jews and rebuild the ruins of Gush Katif. If it was good
enough for Simon the Maccabee to build homes there and settle Jews there,
there is no reason why we should not do the same.

SUCH MEASURES are long overdue and are generally considered to be
inevitable. Indeed, the longer we wait, the more difficult it will be, so we
might as well act now. With a lame-duck president in Washington, and
mounting uncertainty over how the incoming Obama administration will treat
Israel, we have a window of opportunity in the next month to strike a
forceful blow against Hamas terror. Allowing this chance to pass us by would
be a tragic and fateful mistake.

Come now, you might be thinking, the world will never let us get away with
it, even if it is preoccupied with the global financial meltdown. After all,
the front page of The New York Times is six columns wide, leaving plenty of
room to condemn the Jewish state for standing up to those who wish to
destroy it.

Anger, however, is something we can live with. Terrorism, on the other hand,
is not.

So let's muster up the courage and fortitude necessary to defend ourselves
and vanquish our enemies.

Perhaps, then, we too might just merit to see a Hanukka miracle of our own.





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Fax: 913.648.7997
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From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue Dec 30 06:34:42 2008
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:34:42 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Preparing' for more rockets]
In-Reply-To: <49543B32.9070206@westnet.com.au>
References: <49543B32.9070206@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <019801c96a7a$ff647da0$0400a8c0@marvin>

Joe,

Thanks for your response, I'm sure you enjoyed the time and fellowship spent
with your friends.  Since I started this reply, it has been about 4 days. I
keep stopping to rethink my position. 

Make no mistake about were I stand in my support of Israel, Yes words are
cheap but it is our actions that really tell the story on all of us.
Living in America,  life is very comfortable, I have worked hard to create
my life, family and the worldly processions' that I own.  But, In reality I
do not own anything. God gave me life and if I do what the government says,
pay my taxes and walk on my side of the street the government will leave me
along.  My house is mine bought and paid for, built with the sweat and blood
of my own hands..  Do I own it?  NO, the government owns it and I rent the
right to live in it by paying taxes on it each year.   Will I ever walk away
and let someone else live in it?   A gallon of petro and a free book of
matches picked up at the local pub says no.  Is this just empty rhetoric...
It could be, life is good right now, I hope and pray to God I am never put
to the test.    

In my short life I have come to find that we all have principles and guide
lines that we live by, but many of us are never pressed and tested to the
point that we really have to make those hard choices that can literally make
us / cause us to give our life for our beliefs and principles.   When our
faith is tested we make choices based on our knowledge of the facts at hand
and our fear of the outcome of the different scenarios.  Fear is a great
motivator!.   It can motivate us toward God or away form God.   IN my humble
opinion,  the world has no understanding of what is going on in the land we
call Israel at this present time.   The world associates the Israeli and
Palestinian problems with other events in history like the A partied in
Africa, the war between the cowboys and Indians in the History of the USA or
the fighting between the Catholics and Protestant in Ireland.  All of these
were tragic events perpetrated on one group of people by another group.
But in my opinion, Israel is different. Why? Read your bible?  ( no insult
intended. The people in this forum already have a connection and understand
if not they would not be hanging around) God made a promise to Abraham and
gave him a piece of land(Gen 12).   The world leaders do not believe God nor
his promises, but they want control of Jerusalem.  Why is their a war
against Israel and Jerusalem because we humans fight against God and the
only way to get to God his through his prized procession.  

I could quote many verse's to show that God told Israel to go in and possess
the land, drive out the inhabitants'.  I can show verse's were the Sons of
Israel had to take up a weapon and fight and there are instances were God
fought for Israel in what seems like a  supernatural way.    I believe both
must come into play. We are spiritual beings living in a physical world.
Most Christians think the  battle has shifted from the physical realm like
in the bible days to the spiritual realm now.  Someone forgot to tell
Hitler.   The battle has been fought in both arena's since Adam and will
continue till the end. 

We now have a military excise started in Gaza and like Hanoch said,  I also
wonder if this is not just another corrupt exercise by a corrupt Hellenists
leaning government in Israel..   a government trying to stay in power..
People forget so easy. 

In the last day or two Steve wrote,  "On the other hand, it was a dedicated
few that started the armed conflict against the Hellenists murderers and
their quislings over whom we now celebrate the G-d-lead triumph of our
people.  Let us entreat our G-d on behalf of our people, that the armed
conflict that has begun in Gaza may be empowered by the same Spirit that
afforded triumph to the Maccabees.  Let's enlist now!! Let us join those
already in the conflict and escalate our prayers."    Maybe, this military
excise can spiral out of the control of the government and Hashem will use
it to accomplish his plan.

Hanoch, sent the article about Tzafrir Ronen who  passed away over the
weekend.   Mr. Ronen makes the case from a secular view point.  If I may
paraphrase...    WAKE UP STUPID ..   IT'S ALL ABOUT THE LAND.    What binds
the people together?   Hashem, did not give me my piece of land in America
------   HASHEM DID GIVE THE SONS OF ISRAEL THEIR PIECE OF LAND IN THE
MIDDLE EAST.  The land belongs to God it is not to be sold and it is not to
be given away.  In my opinion anyone who try's to do either is in direct
opposition against YHVH.  

Joe, when I started this thread I was just venting my righteous heartburn at
what was going on in Israel in regards to the missiles coming into Israel
from Hamas and the other Godless infidels...   and the lack of courage by
the Israel government(I forgot their was an election coming up).   I also
mention the House in Hebron.  These are two different situations, but in
retrospect they are connected...  Connected by THE LAND.   The discussion
now has a personal face on it and therefore not just empty rhetoric.  I do
feel the pain of your friend...   I feel the pain of others who have lost
everything and must start over, I understand because I have walked that road
and Hashem put me to the test.  I had extremely hard choices to make.  One
voice telling me to do this, go this way. Hashem's  voice(his word) telling
me to choice life, walk in this way.  When we humans are placed in the fire
to be tested... either on and individual bases or in a larger sense in a
collective group, we still have to make choice's..   and these choices are
always on and individual bases.   How many soldiers have tried to use as
their defense...  "we were just following orders".    Yes, some people
believe your not to fight against your own!   Some body forgot to tell Mr.
Maccabee and his sons...  All  Chanukkah celebrations will be canceled
forever in the future due to error in judgment by Mr. Maccabee!

God said,  Choose life and walk in my way and here are the blessings, I will
bless you with.  Choose the other way all your friends are choosing..   the
easy way..  and here are the curses, I will curse you with. (paraphrase from
Deuteronomy)  We as humans make mistakes, we fail our test and sometimes we
just plain-O  ignore the voice of God-----  because we still think we know
best. Or maybe, the test God gave us was just to hard!   I remember one time
an Orthodox Rabbi was teaching about Joseph's test.  The reason it was so
difficult for Joseph, and there was such reward.  As the Rabbi taught,
Potiphars wife was drop dead  gorgeous, Joseph was extremely attracted and
aroused and ready to do the job. But he fled naked with his hand upon his..
well you get the story.   Do you think God was unfair to Joseph? He could
have sent Joseph a women who was extremely.. UGLY.. (you fill in the
details)    When we fail the test...  repent. dust ourselves off and
continue in the way of Hashem. 

Mr. Barak said, "Citizens must accept the state's authority," said Barak,
referring to the settler youth who refuse to evacuate the property. "We will
not allow extreme elements to undermine the authority of the state and its
foundation."  - By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents
and Agencies Ha'aretz- 23:12 04/12/2008     If anyone knows Mr. Barak,
please bring this to his attention.. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT PHAROPH TOLD
MOSHE...   GET A GRIP ON REALITY BARAK..  YHVH IS AN EXTREME GOD,  AND HE
WILL UNDERMINE THE STATES AUTHORITY AND ITS FOUNDATIONS.

Your friend Joe,  seems to have ended is response with "ACTIONS NOT WORDS".
There is much I do not understand, my approach is sometimes simplistic and
difficult at the same time. I struggle to keep my perspective true to
Hashems written word.  As you stated in your discussion with Eli and Nira
they both had choices to make, they made what they believed to be the best
choice at the time and sometimes it is better to escape to live and fight
another day. From your discussion they had another choice...   But their
ACTIONS took them out of the LAND.   May Hashem, quickly guide their
footsteps back home.

Shalom,

Marvin

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Joe Indomenico
Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2008 9:02 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] 'Preparing' for more rockets]

 

Shalom Marvin,

my apologies in not back to your earlier on this issue.

I did spend some time with Eli and his beautiful wife Nira over a cup of
botz.
Eli was "extremely vocal" on the subject. He asked me on his behalf to wish
all a Chag Chanukah Sameach.
He also asked me to convey in no uncertain words his very strong outlook
without mincing any words and getting to the point.

I would like to paint his community's plight during the "Gerush"(
Disengagement ) from Gush Katif for those who are not familiar with the
story.

Some 8,500 Jewish residents were expelled from the Gush in August 2005.
His community of Elei Sinai broke into two groups. The first group followed
their Rabbi Yishai bar Chen into exile without any protest and divided into
their families to be reabsorbed within mainstream Israel .They just
disappeared off the radar.
The second group with Eli and Dror masterminded an ingenious plot. This
group consisted of some 50 families of approx 300 persons. I personally
believe that they were guided by the Ruach ha Chodesh. Eli explains that the
government stand was to prepare for armed resistance , hence the massive
army presence of some40,000 troops. This would play into the hands of the
left wing who would then demonize the settlers as radical law breaking
fundamentalist nut cases. 
When this did not eventuate and the Gerush happened peacefully ,the
government stance changed radically in so far as they wanted the
resettlement process to happen in a hurried manner to remove all trace of
settlers from the media headlines. Most were given temporary accommodation
in various hotels around the country. Out of sight out of mind.
This proved that the government had no real long term plan for the settlers
and were trying to get as much political and international mileage as
possible.

It was at this point that the Elei Sinaians hatched their plot. 
They convened an emergency community meeting where Eli the journalist and
Sarita( Dror's wife ) the lawyer put forward their inspired ideas. The
community of 50 families unanimously voted in favor of the scheme.
They decided to remain united together as they had been in the seaside
village. Nothing was going to separate them.
So they removed the Torah scrolls from the synagogue, rent their clothes,
put on sack cloth and threw ashes over their heads and marched in procession
singing "Shir Lama'alot"(Psalm 121). They marched in procession for 11
kilometres 
( 7miles) to the Green Line. As the sun was setting they were joined in
solidarity by their brothers and sisters from the Golan. They created a tent
city at Yad Mordechai Junction where they dwelt for some 11 months.
Suddenly the Government was confronted with a thorn in the side. The media
was present on a daily basis interviewing the refugees of Elei Sinai. The
community was now thrust into the light of national conscience . This one
act of achdut (unity) created such a stir in the Israeli society that many
did teshuva especially members of the army. The point was made and set in
concrete. 

So much for the background. Now back to Eli's points.

" I believe that we are a people that have been set aside to be a light unto
the nations. With this added sense of responsibility, we must hold onto a
greater sense of moral rectitude. We must conduct ourselves as true
ambassadors of the Almighty. When we fight our enemies we must be as fierce
as lions upholding true integrity and honesty. We must fight the cause of
truth and quash all evil. However we are forbidden to kill our own kind. We
can argue and debate without the shedding of blood. To kill our brothers
puts us on the same level as the Palestinian terrorists. In the Palestinian
territories families are divided between Chamas and Fatach. Brothers from
the same family will settle their arguments at the point of a gun which
leads to fraticide.This is not what we are about. Judaism is special. HaShem
challenges us at times in very deep matters of life , to which we must
respond with deeper insight. Yes, we make mistakes and yes we repeat them
over and over again. However when put into the same situation we are
required to understand the problem from a much deeper level and make the
appropriate adjustments."

"Some say that we have fallen to such a low level of corruption, materialism
and hedonism that a second Holocaust is only a matter of time. This may be
true to some extent, however I remain eternally optimistic. To counter
balance this negative left wing secular streak within world Jewry ,we today
with the advent of modern technology have access to so much spiritual light
that it is absolutely astounding the number of educated Jewish simpletons
there are out there. Prior to the Holocaust and the recent advent of the
computer the Rabbis were the only ones that had access to Torah knowledge
due to Yeshiva learning. 
This reminds me of Sefer Daniel where it says that many will search the Book
with knowledge increasing. These who have insight will be like bright stars
that lead many to righteousness This gives me strength and confidence that
the "Geula" ( redemption ) is a process. All is in place in Israel . When
the" New Spirit "comes all will become apparent. There is a time to fight
which unfortunately was missed. Instead of fighting the enemy the Government
fought against us. Gush Katif was like a protection shield over the entire
land of Israel. When this shield was removed the heavenly protection was
compromised. I believe that the IDF will never win another war again as was
clearly evident in the Lebanon War of 2006. When soldiers are trained and
brainwashed into becoming an eviction force rather than a fighting
protecting force for the people then their psychological strength is
breached. Combat readiness is maintained through tough mental and physical
exercise.Once the pattern is broken the will power of the commanders and
troops is shown as deficient.

"We in Israel have no true leaders.I voted for Sharon as he was the
instigator of the settlements.But not in my wildest dreams would I have
believed that he would be the architect of our demise. Everything in Israel
is the opposite. The country is literally being run by the left wing Supreme
Court. The nature of corruption within Israeli politics is rampant. The
Supreme Court will close a blind eye to this corruption. However once the
Judges have an agenda and the PM or President do not follow suit then all
the corruption comes to the surface as was evident with Sharon and
Katsav.This political compromise will continue until we as a nation
possessed by a new spirit repent and return to HaShem as our true Sovereign
Leader."

"When we were living in our tent city we visited by many Christians many of
whom were singing and throwing candy to the children. Many came with
blankets and food for which we were grateful. A Texan pastor came to me and
told me that some 50 million Evangelical Christians loved and supported
Israel. At the time I found this extremely offensive. I had lived in Israel
all my life and my reality together with most of the population that had
been born in the land was that we were lonely and that nobody loved and
supported us. We watched on TV as the world media biased was shown, the
Arabs were uprising and protesting against us and the west but never once
did I see a demonstration of Christians marching to Capitol Hill in
Washington. Imagine 50 million marching in solidarity with Israel. To me
actions speak much louder than words. It is easy to sit in front of a
computer and blog away.I'll do this and I'll do that. Just meaningless
rhetoric. Only true pain will bring about a new spirit. I believe HaShem has
designed this current situation to test the inner heart. I believe that this
is as is stated in Sefer Daniel " a time of refining and purifying. Only the
pure can connect with HaShem. So please leave all your rhetoric and bold
statements behind and join us in action , an action born from teshuva and a
willingness to submit to HaShem's "Malchut Shamayim"( Kingdom of Heaven )"

"Submit in all joy to the suffering, the rejection and the refining and
purifying fires of HaShem's zeal and ahavah. The next "TZAHAL" (army) will
be HaShem's. Bitachon ( Trust) and Emunah (Faith) are the only weapons that
we have in HaShem's army.General Mashiach is on his way.

"ACTIONS NOT WORDS "

Todah Rabbah Eli.

There was much more said. I have posted his more profound statements as this
post is already long.
There is much for thought and soul searching to be done.

But rest assured that HaShem is in control as He conducts the actions of men
as He fulfills His goodwill and pleasure to the Glory of His name and the
redemption of His people in His Kingdom.

Shalom v'Ahavah
JOE.

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From youngbarzel at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 20:54:34 2008
From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 18:54:34 -0800
Subject: [Dialogue] This MUST be seen; pass it on to everyone you know
Message-ID: <855590370812311854k138af4cpb5e670efa9b42f0d@mail.gmail.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: ACT! Space Coast Florida <actspacecoast at gmail.com>
To: actspacecoast at gmail.com
Sent: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 5:33 pm
Subject: Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale

 Dear Friends of America and the Constitution,

I received this from Tom Trento today. It is almost unbelievable, and very
unsettling to me.  Follow his links to watch the 9 minute video that he
took.
Like Tom says at the end, "we have a lot of work to do in 2009".
And PLEASE FORWARD this to everyone you know! Thanks ~~~  TR

  *YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE THIS!*

*
*
On Tuesday December 30, 2008 - I took the Concorde jet to Pakistan and
videotaped a Pro-Hamas demonstration in downtown Karachi ... except, I did
not take the Concorde and did not go to Pakistan...but I did tape a
Pro-Hamas Demonstration...in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA.

*YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE THIS !

CLICK HERE TO BE REALLY FRIGHTENED.... <http://www.watchobsession.org/>
*










*CLICK HERE TO BE REALLY FRIGHTENED.... <http://www.watchobsession.org/>


www.WatchObsession.org<http://app.expressemailmarketing.com/get.link?linkid=1106393&subscriberid=80368874&campaignid=314440&linkurl=http://www.watchobsession.org/>

*
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*Watch Obsession Campaign is not formally affiliated with Obsession the
Movie or The Clarion Fund.*
<http://app.expressemailmarketing.com/get.link?linkid=1106396&subscriberid=80368874&campaignid=314440&linkurl=http://www.watchobsession.org/>
<http://app.expressemailmarketing.com/get.link?linkid=1106397&subscriberid=80368874&campaignid=314440&linkurl=http://www.watchobsession.org/>
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*After the events of September 11, 2001 I watched a press conference with an
American general whose name I can no longer recall. In the course of the
conference, he shared that he had read the Koran twice. One of the reporters
asked him, "What conclusion did you reach after you had read it?" He bowed
his head for a moment before replying, "We have to defend ourselves."*
Wafa Sultan

*"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become
dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam
the only accepted religion on Earth."* - Omar Ahmad, the chairman and
co-founder of CAIR, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, self
described as America's largest Islamic civil liberties group.

Tom Robbins
ACT! For America
Merritt Island, Florida Chapter
www.actspacecoast.org (local)
www.actforamerica.org (national)

*"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."*   Thomas Jefferson
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