From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 1 05:42:46 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 06:42:46 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for Shabbat Message-ID: Shabbat Shalom, from the Lekarev Report: Six days shall you do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed. And in all things that I have said to you take heed; and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of your mouth. Exodus 23:12-13 Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/6e9974b9/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 1 05:49:13 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 06:49:13 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A view of Israels situation Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, A view of Israel's current situation - see below. Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah WinogKatif David Wilder February 01, 2008 I recall, over twenty years ago, during and after the first Lebanese War, hearing the Chief Rabbi of Hebron-Kiryat Arba, speak about the bloody conflict in the north. He exclaimed, time and time again, ?who knows if the expulsion in the south didn?t cause the war in the north.? Most people have forgotten by now, that shortly prior to the beginning of the first Lebanon War, Israel, then led by Menachem Begin and Ariel Sharon, destroyed Yamit, Ophira, and all other communities in the Sinai, liberated by Israel during the 1967 Six Day War. All Jewish residents of these communities were brutally expelled from their homes, which were then destroyed by the Israeli government. The Camp David Accords were the predecessor of Oslo, The Hebron Accords, the annihilation of Gush Katif and two northern Shomron communities, and negotiations with our blood-thirsty enemy for the expulsion of multitudes of Jews from Judea, Samaria and extensive areas of Jerusalem, including Temple Mount. Of course, the process doesn?t end here; it only concludes the negotiating process. Following implementation of such an agreement, (G-d Forbid,) the enemy would undoubtedly continue pushing for the completion of the first stage of their goal: the use of war-terror to capture all of Eretz Yisrael, bringing about the final solution: the destruction of a Jewish state in the Middle East. Why only the ?first stage of their goal?? Clearly, the aim of Islam is not only the end of Israel; rather it is the Islamization of the entire western world and culture, including a takeover of Europe and North America. That seeds of that mission have already been planted; England, France and Scandinavia are being overrun by Moslems. According to recent studies, ?Muhammad? is expected to be the most popular boy?s name in England in 2008 [_http://tinyurl.com/26w5u7_ (http://tinyurl.com/26w5u7) ]. (I highly recommend viewing the DVD documentary ?Farewell Israel [_http://tinyurl.com/35p3cr_ (http://tinyurl.com/35p3cr) ], for a fuller comprehension of this fact.) So too, following the horrible destruction of Gush Katif, Israel found itself embroiled, not in one war, rather in at least four military campaigns. The first, coming directly on the heels of Gush Katif, was again, as twenty five years ago, from the north. Not too long afterwards, from the south. And let?s not forget Iran. That too is war; similar to the others, one-sided. The enemy has proclaimed its goal of exterminating a Jewish presence in Israel. Israel is still twiddling its thumbs. However there is a big difference between what happened two and a half decades ago and today. Then, the war was on enemy ground. The second Lebanon War, as well as the continuing war from Gaza, is being fought within Eretz Yisrael. The rockets fired by Hizballah, blanketing the north, and the rockets being shot into southern Israeli cities and communities, have moved the war into Israel proper. Not only are soldiers in uniform casualties. Civilians are being targeted, terrorized, wounded and killed. But in reality, this is nothing new. I mentioned a few sentences ago, that Israel is involved in four military campaigns; the fourth being waged from within Judea and Samaria, a war fought for years, primarily against Israeli civilians, which continues today. Not only Hizballah and Hamas are attacking Israel. Abu-Mazen?s ?moderate? Fatah terrorists have not forgotten how to kill and they are doing their best to do just that. The Winograd Commission report, issued a few days ago, is a drop in the bucket. One of the most headlined conclusions from the report was the failure of the IDF leadership. The head of the pyramid was then Chief of Staff, General Dan Halutz. He was clearly unqualified for the job of ?RamatKal,? Chief of Staff. A former Israeli Air Force commander, Halutz may have been an excellent fighter pilot, but knowing how to fly a plane didn?t necessarily qualify him to take charge of all the IDF. Did the Winograd Commission examine HOW Halutz came to be army chief, WHY former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon fired Moshe Ya?alon a year early and brought in Halutz? The answer to that is easy: Ya?alon wasn? t crazy about abandoning Gush Katif. He probably would have done as ordered had he remained in the top job, but he wouldn?t have done so enthusiastically. So, goodbye it was to Ya?alon and welcome it was to Dan Halutz, who promised to do the job with a smile on his face, getting the dirty work done quickly. That Halutz knew how to do; to expel Israelis from their homes, to trounce the Jewish foe, the opponent of peace; that he could accomplish with ease. But to crush an enemy, threatening to destroy the state, killing and kidnapping soldiers, shooting rockets into Israeli cities, that was too difficult a task for the former fighter pilot. Winograd dealt with the unpreparedness of the army, an issue which didn?t begin during the Halutz tenure, rather years before. What lay behind this lack of readiness? I recall, years ago, during the Rabin-Peres years, taking my children to Tank Hill, in (the settlement of) Ramat Eshkol in Jerusalem, where one of the bloodiest and most important battles of the Six Day war was fought. We wandered around the memorial, museum and then watched a movie about the miraculous war. When we left I remember commenting to my wife that the movie?s theme seemed to be one of apology for having fought, and having won the war. She agreed with me. That is the heart of the problem. An army cannot be expected to be victorious if the soldiers and commanders are conditioned into believing that it is wrong to fight for your survival; that the land you are supposed to be defending really doesn?t belong to you; that many of your countrymen are really the enemy and the enemy is really your friend. How much time and money did the Israeli government spend to brainwash tens and hundreds of thousands of officers and soldiers in preparation for the expulsion from Gush Katif? They psychologically rendered the best of our best brain dead. They destroyed their thought-processes. They turned them into robots with one programmed message: these people, this land, are evil. They are a hindrance to the continued existence of Israel. They must be destroyed for the rest of us to continue to exist. And in they went ? the Israeli storm troopers, uniformed in black, to ? follow orders,? to fulfill the mission they?d been programmed to complete. And so they did. But then, a short time later, when the real enemy attacked, they had no idea what to do. Neither did the ?leaders? who had self-hypnotized themselves into believing that the Messiah had arrived; the days of peace were at hand; terror and war had come to an end, the end-of-days had arrived. Peace Now! Nobody with eyes of truth in their head could be surprised at the results of the Second Lebanese war or the continued paralysis preventing Israel from ending the rocket attacks on Sderot. Our so-called leaders are the very antithesis of leadership. They are terminally ill, sick with a cancer of the soul, which has filtered into their brains and down into their bodies. Surely Olmert must go, but not alone. Many of the others, in Kadima, the Likud and other political parties contracted this ?I hate Eretz Yisrael-I despise ?settlers?? disease, which has eaten away their hearts and souls, leaving them empty shells, who may look just like everybody else, but are, in reality, golems, whose continued participation in Israeli political society is endangering the existence of the State of Israel. True Jewish leadership can only come from people imbued with faith, true Jewish faith, with roots in Torah, with roots in Eretz Yisrael, with roots in G-d. These are the authentic results of what should be called the WinogKatif Commission. Let?s hope the Israeli people wake up fast and implement these conclusions ASAP, saving not only themselves, but generations of Jews in Israel for years to come. _comments _ (http://www.hebron.com/english/article.php?id=376#comments) The Jewish Community of Hebron POB 105 , Kiryat Arba-Hebron 90100 _hebron at hebron.org.il_ (mailto:hebron at hebron.org.il) Tour Hebron: Tel 972-52-431-7055 or write: _ tour at hebron.com_ (mailto:simcha at hebron.org.il) The Hebron Fund 1760 Ocean Ave., Brooklyn, NY 11230 _mailto:hebronfund at aol.com_ (mailto:hebronfund at aol.com) 718-677-6886 Web: _http://www.hebron.com/_ (http://www.hebron.com/) Ma'arat HaMachpela: _http://www.machpela.com/_ (http://www.machpela.com/) Gift shop:www.hebrongifts.com You too can Help Hebron - _https://pro29.abac.com/hebron/english/donate.php_ (https://pro29.abac.com/hebron/english/donate.php) To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Hebron list, simply email: _mailto:hebron_today-subscribe at hebron.org.il_ (mailto:hebron_today-subscribe at hebron.org.il) _mailto:hebron_today-unsubscribe at hebron.org._ (mailto:hebron_today-unsubscribe at hebron.org.il) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/f2bd3f89/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 06:50:02 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 04:50:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Good morning! Message-ID: <491116.56060.qm@web37513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Shabbat Shalom, Thanks Hanoch for sharing those informational and inspiring articles, as well as the reminder of the Sabbath. Here is another verse that I came accross in my reading this morning: "Oh, that the salvation [and] deliverance of Israel would come out of Zion! When Elohiym restores the fortunes [brings back from captivity] of His people, then will Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad." Psalm 53:6 What a day that will be!!!! Have a Blessed Shabbat! Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/4d21fbe0/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 07:23:29 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:23:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... Message-ID: <152386.72091.qm@web37507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ...why we left the church. It was too long for an email, so if any one is interested in our journey, please find it attached. Shabbat Shalom! Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/cc561f8c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Why We Left 'the Church'.doc Type: application/msword Size: 42496 bytes Desc: 2196428761-Why We Left 'the Church'.doc Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/cc561f8c/attachment.doc From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 1 09:20:47 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:20:47 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... Message-ID: <020120081520.15528.47A338CE0004FD1400003CA822230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> The parallels are striking Paul. I makes me wonder just how many of us have "been through the mill" -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Paul-Eugene Miller : -------------- ...why we left the church. It was too long for an email, so if any one is interested in our journey, please find it attached. Shabbat Shalom! Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/2297377f/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Fri Feb 1 09:41:35 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:41:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... In-Reply-To: <152386.72091.qm@web37507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <152386.72091.qm@web37507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003d01c864e8$f0e8ad70$0200a8c0@marvin> Paul, It is amazing how similar your story sounds. I have made the comments many times that I was born in the church and I have seen and heard it all. Each time I hear a story like yours, I still am amazed at all the deceit, lies and destruction in the name of Religion / God. As human beings we make mistakes and hurt other people.. But we should never start out to hurt others. When we do we have to repent and do our best to correct those hurts / words / actions. Ministers and fellowship leaders are human also, but it seems like so many of them plot and connive and seek out their devious plans. You know sin(in all it's forms) is one thing when it just happens. To me is quite another when it is plotted and planned like a bank heist. I lived in fear of the preachers for almost 30 plus years. Don't speak against them, don't dishonor them, don't disagree with what they say. If they step across the lines and start meddling in your business, manipulating your family, plotting and stalking your wife's and daughters.. What were the laity to do... just quietly leave the assembly, up and move your family to the next church or next city or next state.. Or lets just go to South America. I think people(we) do this because we want to do the right thing, we fear God and don't want to cross the line and receive divine punishment for our actions. So how many times have we seen or heard of abused families who just stop going to church. All families, including church families appear one way from the outside and another way when your part of them. God fearing people who are trying the best they can to find God and serve him, do just that they / we try. From my time in the church it almost seems like when you get save and become part of the church family you also get on the church circuit. So when the abuse, lies, deceit becomes to much you go to the next. Stay a little while and then on to the next and so on and so on. Didn't Jesus say you would not go through all of the churches before he came. ( a little tongue in cheek humor). Personally it got for me to a point where I decided I would stand against false prophets. Now, generally I'm a very meek and mild manner person. I decided No man would but me under fear again. I fear one. YHVH. I have made the statement and told several preachers I'm willing to put them and myself to the test. Elijah told the prophets of Baal.. Lets have a show down boys, lets see who's god is god. In a metaphoric way I told several preachers I'm willing. You get in the pulpit and prophecy your lies and deceit and try to lead people astray destroy families and put everyone in fear of God's judgment and I will get 2 five gallon buckets of rocks the size of baseballs and stand and bounced them off your head and we'll see who falls first. This may sound funny and then I can hear the sound of sucking wind... O my goodness, I can't believe you would say something like that. I know grandma, But you have to raise a standard or the enemy will come in like a flood. Let me explain where I'm coming from. Remember all words have a context and then a larger context. When I was in the church I not only went to my church we were in a fellowship of several others churches so the church family went form 35 -70 to over 500 really quick. I set and watch families come to church doing their best to serve God. Then I see the manipulation by the church leaders.. (all of them). Instead of families being helped and healed, wounds cleaned and bandaged, life's restored... All you see is more of the same you get out in the world. Some people would say, where did you go to church? The same place you do! Your just blinded to what is going on behind the scenes. Look at the abuse of people and families. In each of our own walks how many times have families left for no reason? How many times did people offer no reason, they just clamed up, almost afraid or to embarrassed to say. At work when you leave a job you have an exit interview. Imagine if that happened in the churches. How many children ran from church as soon as they got old enough? How many wife's stopped going, leaving their husbands and children to go alone? How many families have scares to the bone, life's changed direction in mid stream? How many families were destroyed because of the abuse(remember abuse has many forms, most of it is not physical)? How many children excited about Sunday school, life , school, their own life's ... destroyed because of actions by others? Does your heart / soul yearn for justice and righteous? One day we will all give account for our deeds and be judged according. May God have show us mercy. What is the greatest commandment? Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Paul-Eugene Miller Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:23 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... ...why we left the church. It was too long for an email, so if any one is interested in our journey, please find it attached. Shabbat Shalom! Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/d361dd16/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 1 13:29:29 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:29:29 EST Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... Message-ID: Hey Paul - Thank you so much for sharing your amazing set of experiences.....wow, I don't know what to say.... This is a very special, and very unique group of people...all of whom are 'thinkers,' 'questioners' and 'seekers of the truth.' Of course, not coming from a Christian background, I expected all of the stories that people would share would be informative for me. But Paul, you and the others who have shared, have taught me much more then just 'information.' I hope to be able to summarize my 'reaction,' but it will surely take a few days. Toda - thanks, for opening up your heart and sharing your experiences... Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/c3097bc8/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 1 13:33:07 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:33:07 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Good morning! Message-ID: Hey Paul - Toda (thanks) for your thank you! :-) You're very welcome, I try to share lots of different stuff - none of which I believe is offensive, and all of which is informative - sometimes, it may even be funny.... Thank you for sharing those verses - we are privileged to live in a time when we can actually see it beginning to happen... Blessings right back at ya! May you and your family have a great Shabbat. Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/cab03bb2/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 1 13:38:05 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:38:05 EST Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... Message-ID: Hey John - If you don't mind - can I add something to your comment? :-) It sure seems to me (again, I'm looking at this phenomena from the 'outside') that MANY people (in various Church's across the country) are experiencing being shaken through a sifter....and remember, HaShem has promised us that 'none will be lost.' Have a Shabbat Shalom! Your pal - en Nueva York, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/6fbd10d9/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 1 14:03:27 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 15:03:27 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, I DO have a sense of humor... Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Below is a joke that was forwarded to me, it's cute, but it states an important point. Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah The Israeli Ambassador at the U.N. began, 'Ladies and gentlemen before I commence with my speech, I want to relay an old Passover story to all of you. 'When Moses was leading the Hebrews out of Egypt toward the Promised Land, he had to go through what seemed like a nearly endless Sinai desert. When they reached the Promised Land, the people had become very thirsty and needed water. So Moses struck the side of a mountain with his staff and a pond appeared with crystal clean, cool water. The people rejoiced and drank to their hearts' content. 'Moses wished to cleanse his whole body, so he went over to the other side of the pond, took all of his clothes off and dived into the cool waters. Only when Moses came out of the water, he discovered that all of his clothes had been stolen. 'And,' he said, 'I have reasons to believe that the Palestinians stole my clothes.'' The Palestinian delegate to the UN, hearing this accusation, jumps from his seat and screams out, 'This is a travesty. It is widely known that there were no Palestinians there at that time!' And with that in mind,' said the Israeli Ambassador, 'let me now begin my speech.' **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/adbfa20f/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 14:20:57 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:20:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, I DO have a sense of humor... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <395780.51759.qm@web37511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Great joke....I'll have to dig a few out of the archives!! Paul YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Below is a joke that was forwarded to me, it's cute, but it states an important point. Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah The Israeli Ambassador at the U.N. began, 'Ladies and gentlemen before I commence with my speech, I want to relay an old Passover story to all of you. 'When Moses was leading the Hebrews out of Egypt toward the Promised Land, he had to go through what seemed like a nearly endless Sinai desert. When they reached the Promised Land, the people had become very thirsty and needed water. So Moses struck the side of a mountain with his staff and a pond appeared with crystal clean, cool water. The people rejoiced and drank to their hearts' content. 'Moses wished to cleanse his whole body, so he went over to the other side of the pond, took all of his clothes off and dived into the cool waters. Only when Moses came out of the water, he discovered that all of his clothes had been stolen. 'And,' he said, 'I have reasons to believe that the Palestinians stole my clothes.'' The Palestinian delegate to the UN, hearing this accusation, jumps from his seat and screams out, 'This is a travesty. It is widely known that there were no Palestinians there at that time!' And with that in mind,' said the Israeli Ambassador, 'let me now begin my speech.' --------------------------------- Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/aa6c4eaf/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Feb 1 16:41:15 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:41:15 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: FW: Gravy Ladle Message-ID: **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/26d1f553/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Gary Arvidson" Subject: FW: Gravy Ladle Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:40:44 -0500 Size: 3632 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080201/26d1f553/attachment.mht From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sat Feb 2 14:30:32 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 15:30:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... Message-ID: Hello Paul, I read your journey this morning, and want to thank you for sharing it with us. Having also come out of the Church, I am familiar with some of the things you have been through thus far. What I see is that Joseph is breaking out of a long (over 2,500 years) captivity, so the fighting can be intense at times. If we keep our eyes on HaShem, we will win, but the struggle sometimes seems never-ending, and it can test our endurance sorely. Like the walls of protection that surrounded Jericho, our false walls - the lies that "protected" us - are falling. The Torah, Prophets and Writings (T'NaKh) become our shofars sounding the mighty blast of HaShem against those lies that once surrounded us, causing them to come tumbling down. I often think of the struggle a baby bird must exert to break out of its egg. Though it's hard to watch them without offering aid, I've been told that if you try to help, they will die. The struggle is necessary. So each of us must struggle. But through such exertion, Joseph is emerging once again. We are breaking down the strong walls that held us captive for millennia. We are again placing all our hope in the one G-d of our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as opposed to the gods of our more recent forebears. Nice to have you join us on the Ancient Path, Paul, as we retrace the steps by which we went into captivity so long ago. I find the words of Jeremiah an encouragement. We have inherited lies, but are realizing their futility as we return to THE L-RD. "Oh YHVH, my strength, and my stronghold, and my refuge in the day of affliction, nations shall come to thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vain idols, and things in which there is no profit. Shall a man make gods to himself, and they are no gods? Therefore behold, I will make known to them this once, I will cause them to know my hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is YHVH." Jeremiah 16:19-21 Shabbat Shalom to you and to your family, Pat Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:23:29 -0800From: ram1500_man at yahoo.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... ...why we left the church. It was too long for an email, so if any one is interested in our journey, please find it attached. Shabbat Shalom! Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080202/58a539a5/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sat Feb 2 17:54:37 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 17:54:37 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... References: Message-ID: <006601c865f6$f8a9d8e0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> BEAUTIFULLY SAID PAT! LOY ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 2:30 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... Hello Paul, I read your journey this morning, and want to thank you for sharing it with us. Having also come out of the Church, I am familiar with some of the things you have been through thus far. What I see is that Joseph is breaking out of a long (over 2,500 years) captivity, so the fighting can be intense at times. If we keep our eyes on HaShem, we will win, but the struggle sometimes seems never-ending, and it can test our endurance sorely. Like the walls of protection that surrounded Jericho, our false walls - the lies that "protected" us - are falling. The Torah, Prophets and Writings (T'NaKh) become our shofars sounding the mighty blast of HaShem against those lies that once surrounded us, causing them to come tumbling down. I often think of the struggle a baby bird must exert to break out of its egg. Though it's hard to watch them without offering aid, I've been told that if you try to help, they will die. The struggle is necessary. So each of us must struggle. But through such exertion, Joseph is emerging once again. We are breaking down the strong walls that held us captive for millennia. We are again placing all our hope in the one G-d of our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as opposed to the gods of our more recent forebears. Nice to have you join us on the Ancient Path, Paul, as we retrace the steps by which we went into captivity so long ago. I find the words of Jeremiah an encouragement. We have inherited lies, but are realizing their futility as we return to THE L-RD. "Oh YHVH, my strength, and my stronghold, and my refuge in the day of affliction, nations shall come to thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vain idols, and things in which there is no profit. Shall a man make gods to himself, and they are no gods? Therefore behold, I will make known to them this once, I will cause them to know my hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is YHVH." Jeremiah 16:19-21 Shabbat Shalom to you and to your family, Pat ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:23:29 -0800 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... ...why we left the church. It was too long for an email, so if any one is interested in our journey, please find it attached. Shabbat Shalom! Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080202/c660456d/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sat Feb 2 18:16:38 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 18:16:38 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... References: <020120081520.15528.47A338CE0004FD1400003CA822230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <00c401c865fa$0b7b04a0$6400a8c0@davesbook> I concur.....I thought I was the only one preaching about the "two headed monster".....when I read that I almost fell off the table!!!! here's a "freak" telling these "normal" folks that "any body with two heads is a FREAK........." wow. He truly is calling a bunch of us misfits to something special.....unity what's next? dave ----- Original Message ----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... The parallels are striking Paul. I makes me wonder just how many of us have "been through the mill" -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Paul-Eugene Miller : -------------- ...why we left the church. It was too long for an email, so if any one is interested in our journey, please find it attached. Shabbat Shalom! Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080202/3b806449/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Sat Feb 2 18:41:18 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:41:18 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... In-Reply-To: <006601c865f6$f8a9d8e0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> References: <006601c865f6$f8a9d8e0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <76D3E615EB6E49FEB9B0B8009ECBCAEA@Beeblebrox> Yes Pat, beautiful words, so true! And thank you Paul, for sharing your story. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Loy To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... BEAUTIFULLY SAID PAT! LOY ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 2:30 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... Hello Paul, I read your journey this morning, and want to thank you for sharing it with us. Having also come out of the Church, I am familiar with some of the things you have been through thus far. What I see is that Joseph is breaking out of a long (over 2,500 years) captivity, so the fighting can be intense at times. If we keep our eyes on HaShem, we will win, but the struggle sometimes seems never-ending, and it can test our endurance sorely. Like the walls of protection that surrounded Jericho, our false walls - the lies that "protected" us - are falling. The Torah, Prophets and Writings (T'NaKh) become our shofars sounding the mighty blast of HaShem against those lies that once surrounded us, causing them to come tumbling down. I often think of the struggle a baby bird must exert to break out of its egg. Though it's hard to watch them without offering aid, I've been told that if you try to help, they will die. The struggle is necessary. So each of us must struggle. But through such exertion, Joseph is emerging once again. We are breaking down the strong walls that held us captive for millennia. We are again placing all our hope in the one G-d of our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as opposed to the gods of our more recent forebears. Nice to have you join us on the Ancient Path, Paul, as we retrace the steps by which we went into captivity so long ago. I find the words of Jeremiah an encouragement. We have inherited lies, but are realizing their futility as we return to THE L-RD. "Oh YHVH, my strength, and my stronghold, and my refuge in the day of affliction, nations shall come to thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vain idols, and things in which there is no profit. Shall a man make gods to himself, and they are no gods? Therefore behold, I will make known to them this once, I will cause them to know my hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is YHVH." Jeremiah 16:19-21 Shabbat Shalom to you and to your family, Pat -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:23:29 -0800 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] So you want to know..... ...why we left the church. It was too long for an email, so if any one is interested in our journey, please find it attached. Shabbat Shalom! Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080202/da748fae/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Feb 3 04:22:32 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 04:22:32 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] new friend Message-ID: <000d01c8664e$b011d4e0$6400a8c0@davesbook> dear group.....I have met a person on line that may join our list....just a heads up. she lives in Africa. and is tying to comunicate to others so........this may be intresting always piddling dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/6299595f/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 3 07:11:45 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 13:11:45 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] new friend In-Reply-To: <000d01c8664e$b011d4e0$6400a8c0@davesbook> References: <000d01c8664e$b011d4e0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <1763634113-1202044562-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1463031130-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> The more the merrier! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Dave Cole" Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 04:22:32 To: Subject: [Dialogue] new friend dear group.....I have met a person??on line that may join our list....just a heads up.?? she lives in Africa.?? and is tying to comunicate to others so........this may be intresting ? always piddling dave_______________________________________________ From creechmargie at yahoo.com Sun Feb 3 08:18:07 2008 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 06:18:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] what to do? Message-ID: <982680.47463.qm@web58510.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi! I'm new to this group and would like to just give you a little background about myself before I present my question. I hope this doesn't get too long but this is what is going on in my life. In 1996 I started homeschooling my children and it grew into homeschooling many children of friends and high risk kids from my community. I began to pray that God would show me what I should use for literature and it hit me that we should use the Bible. duh! So my journey began, We would begin in Genesis and read through the Bible every year. After the first time I had so many questions. He said the Sabbath is forever. I thought I was losing my mind. I would go to my husband in tears and show him what the Word said and he thought I was crazy too. I would tell him that I knew we weren't suppose to do the Feast but I was sure about the Sabbath. Finally after much prayer he began to see it. We started keeping the Sabbath and continued going to Sunday church. Then as I continued to study I was sure we should be keep the Feast. So we started keeping them too. In 1996 there were three lunar eclipse. One on Passover, Tabernacle, and Purim if I remember correctly. I felt God was bringing attention to His Feast. It was confirmation to me that I was on the right track. As I continued studying the Word year after year with my students it became more and more clear about Judah and Ephraim. I was saved in 1984 and had always felt there had to be more but didn't know what it was. We went to every tent meeting and listened to so much kooky stuff but always came up empty. God is so AWESOME and faithful. As I continued to get into His Word He showed me a little every year. After we began keeping Sabbath and the Feast the feeling of there has to be more disappeared. Any way,all that just to say that we left Sunday worship behind and in 1997 quit doing Christmas, Easter, and all the other pagan holidays we had done. That was the thing that really made all our friends think we had gone over the edge and were into something really wierd. I would show them in the Word and they would say that they didn't care what the Word said that Jesus changed everything and I didn't need to read anything that wasn't in the NT. I felt really isolated. I lived in Midland Texas at the time and Joe Good was on a television program two or three times a week, so that was most of my teaching and in my opion it doesn't get much betterbut it is still nice to have some fellowship. I did have all the kids that I homeschooled and they loved the Bible and just took it for what it said, I have to admit, I had alot of parents wanting to know what I was teaching because their kids wanted to keep the Sabbath and follow His Ways. (the kids I homeschooled were 14-18 years of age) Anyway, in 2004 my husband took me from Texas and moved me to Alabama. We now live in this small town (I thought I knew what a redneck was until I moved here). Out of desperation for fellowship we began going to a Sunday church here. I figure that is where Ephraim hangs out. We are doing a Bible study on Tuesday nights now. I think the main problem with most Believers is that they have never read the Word for themselves. So that is what we are doing. We started in Genesis and I am just praying that they will see the whole story. My deal is that I hate going to Sunday church because everything they teach is totally different from what I believe. I don't want to tithe there because I don't want to put God's money into their teaching material. Do you think it's wrong to stay in a Sunday church? I'm not sure. I do know that there are people in that church that truly love the Lord but are just blind to who they are. I feel like He has opened a door with the Bible study and if we quit going it may close that door. I know that He will close or open any door He chooses, I guess I just wanted your input because we don't have anyone to bounce things off of here. I listened to Ross' s teachings all day yesterday and what a blessing he is. margie --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/0c8932d2/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Feb 3 09:28:37 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:28:37 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] what to do? Message-ID: What a blessing YOU are, Margie! Thank you so much for this letter. I think most of us identify with your feelings of isolation. And I'm sure we are all encouraged and strengthened by your words. You are following the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. What is there to compare to that? You have found the greatest treasure there is. I will be looking for your posts on this list. Am wondering what HaShem will have you to do and say among the Bible study group you are in. I totally understand your quandary about the Tithe. I feel as you do about giving it in a place where HaShem is not receiving all glory and honor. I love that you have taught children and young adults the word, beginning in the Beginning with Bereshit (Genesis). What could be more logical? And what truly amazing results G-d's word has wrought among them - and you! You ARE a teacher. And you have taught me as well: If you wish to reach people, to be a WITNESS for HaShem, use His words! It's wonderful to meet you, Margie! Thank you so much for your letter. Love, Pat Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 06:18:07 -0800From: creechmargie at yahoo.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] what to do? Hi! I'm new to this group and would like to just give you a little background about myself before I present my question. I hope this doesn't get too long but this is what is going on in my life. In 1996 I started homeschooling my children and it grew into homeschooling many children of friends and high risk kids from my community. I began to pray that God would show me what I should use for literature and it hit me that we should use the Bible. duh! So my journey began, We would begin in Genesis and read through the Bible every year. After the first time I had so many questions. He said the Sabbath is forever. I thought I was losing my mind. I would go to my husband in tears and show him what the Word said and he thought I was crazy too. I would tell him that I knew we weren't suppose to do the Feast but I was sure about the Sabbath. Finally after much prayer he began to see it. We started keeping the Sabbath and continued going to Sunday church. Then as I continued to study I was sure we should be keep the Feast. So we started keeping them too. In 1996 there were three lunar eclipse. One on Passover, Tabernacle, and Purim if I remember correctly. I felt God was bringing attention to His Feast. It was confirmation to me that I was on the right track. As I continued studying the Word year after year with my students it became more and more clear about Judah and Ephraim. I was saved in 1984 and had always felt there had to be more but didn't know what it was. We went to every tent meeting and listened to so much kooky stuff but always came up empty. God is so AWESOME and faithful. As I continued to get into His Word He showed me a little every year. After we began keeping Sabbath and the Feast the feeling of there has to be more disappeared. Any way,all that just to say that we left Sunday worship behind and in 1997 quit doing Christmas, Easter, and all the other pagan holidays we had done. That was the thing that really made all our friends think we had gone over the edge and were into something really wierd. I would show them in the Word and they would say that they didn't care what the Word said that Jesus changed everything and I didn't need to read anything that wasn't in the NT. I felt really isolated. I lived in Midland Texas at the time and Joe Good was on a television program two or three times a week, so that was most of my teaching and in my opion it doesn't get much betterbut it is still nice to have some fellowship. I did have all the kids that I homeschooled and they loved the Bible and just took it for what it said, I have to admit, I had alot of parents wanting to know what I was teaching because their kids wanted to keep the Sabbath and follow His Ways. (the kids I homeschooled were 14-18 years of age) Anyway, in 2004 my husband took me from Texas and moved me to Alabama. We now live in this small town (I thought I knew what a redneck was until I moved here). Out of desperation for fellowship we began going to a Sunday church here. I figure that is where Ephraim hangs out. We are doing a Bible study on Tuesday nights now. I think the main problem with most Believers is that they have never read the Word for themselves. So that is what we are doing. We started in Genesis and I am just praying that they will see the whole story. My deal is that I hate going to Sunday church because everything they teach is totally different from what I believe. I don't want to tithe there because I don't want to put God's money into their teaching material. Do you think it's wrong to stay in a Sunday church? I'm not sure. I do know that there are people in that church that truly love the Lord but are just blind to who they are. I feel like He has opened a door with the Bible study and if we quit going it may close that door. I know that He will close or open any door He chooses, I guess I just wanted your input because we don't have anyone to bounce things off of here. I listened to Ross' s teachings all day yesterday and what a blessing he is. margie Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/20b48339/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Sun Feb 3 11:24:50 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 13:24:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Margie, welcome! In-Reply-To: <982680.47463.qm@web58510.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <982680.47463.qm@web58510.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9DC0D29843474FC79E1C3C44D757707A@Beeblebrox> ((((Margie!)))) (...those brackets are computer-speak for a big hug!) Thank you for sharing your story. As I read it, it brought back to remembrance my own journey, and I can say that I was there with you Margie, albeit in another location! 1996 was the year that I like to say that my 'homing button was ignited', - for seemingly out of the blue I had an intense desire to seek the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I even remember specifically calling Him that, as if to be very clear Whom I meant. He slowly began showing me things like the Sabbath, His Feasts, and the journey home began. We began visiting and attending various churches, but never really fitted in very well. We were not Trinitarians, but never spoke of it, knowing that it is the no-no subject. I remember discussing the wisdom of erecting a huge Christmas tree in the church sanctuary with the pastor's wife one time, and as we were discussing it, (she defending it), the whole thing came crashing down! Of course, they put it up again... At that time I had quite a significant dream, which I only fully understood a few years later. I dreamed that I was standing on the high banks of the ocean, overlooking a harbour. A ship was coming in, and I noticed to the side of me that an older gentlemen was hastily getting all 'spiffed up' to board the ship. He was an old sea-captain, and he was putting on his medals and badges. As the ship sailed by, I noticed that the people on board were having a sort of party with much laughter and cocktails etc. The ship then did a turn-around, in order to dock, and I suddenly noticed that the whole underside of the ship was eaten away with rust, and had gaping holes! I quickly turned to the sea-captain and tried to warn him, but he was pushing me aside and anxiously racing to board the ship. I was horrified, and then woke up. I do believe that the dream was warning me about staying in the institutional churches, and it was not long after that when we left the church as such, and started meeting with others in homes. Eventually, after sharing some of the things we had been learning with those in the home-meetings, they asked us to not officially be part of the group, but to continue on as friends. This suited us, as it was becoming increasingly difficult to not share the wonderful truths we were learning, and the 'gaping holes in the rusty underside' of the institutional church, which is destined to sink. Your participation in the bible study might just be for a season - perhaps a time to gently begin to offer some insights into passages that are read and discussed. You might make some friends too, who will remember you in the days to come, when they are perhaps awakened to seek more. My husband and I have a few people from various Christian backgrounds gather in our home once a week to discuss biblical topics and current events. This meeting was brought about by others, who seem to like to gather in our home (good refreshments? lol) Because we are not called a 'fellowship' or church, everyone is free to state their own opinion, without censorship. Actually, the Dialogue Rules that Ross established have been extremely useful in this regard and are becoming part of the practice of our group. I am not sure how long the group will exist, but it is a vehicle to share a little of the light that we have been shown. Mostly we hardly even get to say much, as the discussion goes round in circles. We call the gathering 'Solomon's Porch'- the place for dialogue and debate. Looking forward to getting to know you more, Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Margie Creech To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: [Dialogue] what to do? Hi! I'm new to this group and would like to just give you a little background about myself before I present my question. I hope this doesn't get too long but this is what is going on in my life. In 1996 I started homeschooling my children and it grew into homeschooling many children of friends and high risk kids from my community. I began to pray that God would show me what I should use for literature and it hit me that we should use the Bible. duh! So my journey began, We would begin in Genesis and read through the Bible every year. After the first time I had so many questions. He said the Sabbath is forever. I thought I was losing my mind. I would go to my husband in tears and show him what the Word said and he thought I was crazy too. I would tell him that I knew we weren't suppose to do the Feast but I was sure about the Sabbath. Finally after much prayer he began to see it. We started keeping the Sabbath and continued going to Sunday church. Then as I continued to study I was sure we should be keep the Feast. So we started keeping them too. In 1996 there were three lunar eclipse. One on Passover, Tabernacle, and Purim if I remember correctly. I felt God was bringing attention to His Feast. It was confirmation to me that I was on the right track. As I continued studying the Word year after year with my students it became more and more clear about Judah and Ephraim. I was saved in 1984 and had always felt there had to be more but didn't know what it was. We went to every tent meeting and listened to so much kooky stuff but always came up empty. God is so AWESOME and faithful. As I continued to get into His Word He showed me a little every year. After we began keeping Sabbath and the Feast the feeling of there has to be more disappeared. Any way,all that just to say that we left Sunday worship behind and in 1997 quit doing Christmas, Easter, and all the other pagan holidays we had done. That was the thing that really made all our friends think we had gone over the edge and were into something really wierd. I would show them in the Word and they would say that they didn't care what the Word said that Jesus changed everything and I didn't need to read anything that wasn't in the NT. I felt really isolated. I lived in Midland Texas at the time and Joe Good was on a television program two or three times a week, so that was most of my teaching and in my opion it doesn't get much betterbut it is still nice to have some fellowship. I did have all the kids that I homeschooled and they loved the Bible and just took it for what it said, I have to admit, I had alot of parents wanting to know what I was teaching because their kids wanted to keep the Sabbath and follow His Ways. (the kids I homeschooled were 14-18 years of age) Anyway, in 2004 my husband took me from Texas and moved me to Alabama. We now live in this small town (I thought I knew what a redneck was until I moved here). Out of desperation for fellowship we began going to a Sunday church here. I figure that is where Ephraim hangs out. We are doing a Bible study on Tuesday nights now. I think the main problem with most Believers is that they have never read the Word for themselves. So that is what we are doing. We started in Genesis and I am just praying that they will see the whole story. My deal is that I hate going to Sunday church because everything they teach is totally different from what I believe. I don't want to tithe there because I don't want to put God's money into their teaching material. Do you think it's wrong to stay in a Sunday church? I'm not sure. I do know that there are people in that church that truly love the Lord but are just blind to who they are. I feel like He has opened a door with the Bible study and if we quit going it may close that door. I know that He will close or open any door He chooses, I guess I just wanted your input because we don't have anyone to bounce things off of here. I listened to Ross' s teachings all day yesterday and what a blessing he is. margie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/0f9b7a5b/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Feb 3 11:26:20 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 11:26:20 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] what to do? References: Message-ID: <00e401c86689$e464e7b0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Welcome Margie, Please feel free to ask away on this list.....It is wonderful that by wanting to train up your children, that you actually had the heart to discover truth for your entire family......you will discover that most of the folks on this list either were doing children church or were teaching children when they ended up reading and discovering this childlike faith. We will be praying for your fellowship group that you will have the wisdom to share your faith with your friends.....and also I will keep a special prayer in my heart for the "good ole boys/girls" in Alabama, :~)..... Again welcome and I will look forward to more posts from you you stated; .> "I think the main problem with most Believers is that they have never read the Word for themselves. >So that is what we are doing" I agree fully, dave ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 9:28 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] what to do? What a blessing YOU are, Margie! Thank you so much for this letter. I think most of us identify with your feelings of isolation. And I'm sure we are all encouraged and strengthened by your words. It's wonderful to meet you, Margie! Thank you so much for your letter. Love, Pat ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 06:18:07 -0800 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] what to do? Hi! I'm new to this group and would like to just give you a little background about myself before I present my question. I hope this doesn't get too long but this is what is going on in my life. I guess I just wanted your input because we don't have anyone to bounce things off of here. I listened to Ross' s teachings all day yesterday and what a blessing he is. margie ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/28bc608b/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Sun Feb 3 12:18:18 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:18:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] what to do? In-Reply-To: <982680.47463.qm@web58510.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <480374.11048.qm@web37515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Margie, Only you can answer the question as to where you should be. Sometimes, and I am speaking from experience, the Father has us where we really don't want to be, but remember what Samuel told King Saul...."Obedience is better than sacrifice." Maybe there are people in that congregation that need to hear the truth. I personally couldn't go back to Sunday worship, but that is me. It is always interesting to see what path the Father leads us down, and the main thing is to keep your eyes focused on Him, and when He says "Go", then we had better go, and when He says "Stay", then we had better stay! Pray much, and stay in His Word, worship Him on the Sabbath, and remember that "The footsteps of the righteous man is order by YHWH." Paul Margie Creech wrote: Hi! I'm new to this group and would like to just give you a little background about myself before I present my question. I hope this doesn't get too long but this is what is going on in my life. In 1996 I started homeschooling my children and it grew into homeschooling many children of friends and high risk kids from my community. I began to pray that God would show me what I should use for literature and it hit me that we should use the Bible. duh! So my journey began, We would begin in Genesis and read through the Bible every year. After the first time I had so many questions. He said the Sabbath is forever. I thought I was losing my mind. I would go to my husband in tears and show him what the Word said and he thought I was crazy too. I would tell him that I knew we weren't suppose to do the Feast but I was sure about the Sabbath. Finally after much prayer he began to see it. We started keeping the Sabbath and continued going to Sunday church. Then as I continued to study I was sure we should be keep the Feast. So we started keeping them too. In 1996 there were three lunar eclipse. One on Passover, Tabernacle, and Purim if I remember correctly. I felt God was bringing attention to His Feast. It was confirmation to me that I was on the right track. As I continued studying the Word year after year with my students it became more and more clear about Judah and Ephraim. I was saved in 1984 and had always felt there had to be more but didn't know what it was. We went to every tent meeting and listened to so much kooky stuff but always came up empty. God is so AWESOME and faithful. As I continued to get into His Word He showed me a little every year. After we began keeping Sabbath and the Feast the feeling of there has to be more disappeared. Any way,all that just to say that we left Sunday worship behind and in 1997 quit doing Christmas, Easter, and all the other pagan holidays we had done. That was the thing that really made all our friends think we had gone over the edge and were into something really wierd. I would show them in the Word and they would say that they didn't care what the Word said that Jesus changed everything and I didn't need to read anything that wasn't in the NT. I felt really isolated. I lived in Midland Texas at the time and Joe Good was on a television program two or three times a week, so that was most of my teaching and in my opion it doesn't get much betterbut it is still nice to have some fellowship. I did have all the kids that I homeschooled and they loved the Bible and just took it for what it said, I have to admit, I had alot of parents wanting to know what I was teaching because their kids wanted to keep the Sabbath and follow His Ways. (the kids I homeschooled were 14-18 years of age) Anyway, in 2004 my husband took me from Texas and moved me to Alabama. We now live in this small town (I thought I knew what a redneck was until I moved here). Out of desperation for fellowship we began going to a Sunday church here. I figure that is where Ephraim hangs out. We are doing a Bible study on Tuesday nights now. I think the main problem with most Believers is that they have never read the Word for themselves. So that is what we are doing. We started in Genesis and I am just praying that they will see the whole story. My deal is that I hate going to Sunday church because everything they teach is totally different from what I believe. I don't want to tithe there because I don't want to put God's money into their teaching material. Do you think it's wrong to stay in a Sunday church? I'm not sure. I do know that there are people in that church that truly love the Lord but are just blind to who they are. I feel like He has opened a door with the Bible study and if we quit going it may close that door. I know that He will close or open any door He chooses, I guess I just wanted your input because we don't have anyone to bounce things off of here. I listened to Ross' s teachings all day yesterday and what a blessing he is. margie --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now._______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/2ef0a226/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Sun Feb 3 12:20:17 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:20:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] new friend In-Reply-To: <000d01c8664e$b011d4e0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <988839.9501.qm@web37515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dave, we never know why people come across our paths...but the more that are on this dialogue, the merrier. Paul Dave Cole wrote: dear group.....I have met a person on line that may join our list....just a heads up. she lives in Africa. and is tying to comunicate to others so........this may be intresting always piddling dave _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/8f19f290/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Sun Feb 3 12:48:40 2008 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:48:40 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] what to do? In-Reply-To: <982680.47463.qm@web58510.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <982680.47463.qm@web58510.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Margie, Welcome to the dialogue. Your post was very inspiring.G-d is so faithful. I haven't been on this search (for the ancient path) as long as you have.About 2 years ago a friend invited my husband Dave and I to a Bible study that was just beginning to meet in St. Francisville, La. in an old Synagogue on Saturdays.That's when we met Ross Nichols and Roots of Faith.We were still going to a "Sunday meeting" church.Eventually G-d led us out .Keeping the Sabbath was probably the starting place for us.(I am still learning how to keep the Sabbath- I haven't arrived by any means).Dave and I have a 15 year old daughter Madeline(Maddie) and she is home schooled.We started home schooling 2 years ago.We belong to a home school co-op. that meets once a week.It is becoming more difficult to participate . What we believe is so different than what is being taught in some of the classes that "Bible based".When Maddie or I talk about the Sabbath ,Festivals or the Roots of Faith Bible study we get a lot of strange looks. (I'm sure they think we've gone over the edge and are weird). However I can relate to what you said about the kids having a hunger to keep the Sabbath and follow His ways. When the co-op decided to have a Christmas party Maddie brought out the dreidals and taught the kids about Hanukah and they loved it. It would be great to be in your area.(or vis-a-versa). I guess I've said all this to say it's been a progressive journey and the L-rd is gradually opening my eyes to His truth and where I need to change.When it was His time for me to leave the fellowship of the "Sunday" church there was a sense of release and a peace .It seems to me from what you've shared about your journey that G-d is certainly leading you and will continue to do so as you are faithful in what He has placed right in front of you. My journey on the Ancient Path started with the Torah study ,(starting in Genesis), reading it out loud just like it was done in the early church. Sounds like a good place to begin a Tuesday night Bible study. These are just my thoughts on the subject. Shalom and look forward to getting to know you, Love and blessings, Sherry ---- Original Message ----- From: Margie Creech To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:18 AM Subject: [Dialogue] what to d? Hi! I'm new to this group and would like to just give you a little background about myself before I present my question. I hope this doesn't get too long but this is what is going on in my life. In 1996 I started homeschooling my children and it grew into homeschooling many children of friends and high risk kids from my community. I began to pray that God would show me what I should use for literature and it hit me that we should use the Bible. duh! So my journey began, We would begin in Genesis and read through the Bible every year. After the first time I had so many questions. He said the Sabbath is forever. I thought I was losing my mind. I would go to my husband in tears and show him what the Word said and he thought I was crazy too. I would tell him that I knew we weren't suppose to do the Feast but I was sure about the Sabbath. Finally after much prayer he began to see it. We started keeping the Sabbath and continued going to Sunday church. Then as I continued to study I was sure we should be keep the Feast. So we started keeping them too. In 1996 there were three lunar eclipse. One on Passover, Tabernacle, and Purim if I remember correctly. I felt God was bringing attention to His Feast. It was confirmation to me that I was on the right track. As I continued studying the Word year after year with my students it became more and more clear about Judah and Ephraim. I was saved in 1984 and had always felt there had to be more but didn't know what it was. We went to every tent meeting and listened to so much kooky stuff but always came up empty. God is so AWESOME and faithful. As I continued to get into His Word He showed me a little every year. After we began keeping Sabbath and the Feast the feeling of there has to be more disappeared. Any way,all that just to say that we left Sunday worship behind and in 1997 quit doing Christmas, Easter, and all the other pagan holidays we had done. That was the thing that really made all our friends think we had gone over the edge and were into something really wierd. I would show them in the Word and they would say that they didn't care what the Word said that Jesus changed everything and I didn't need to read anything that wasn't in the NT. I felt really isolated. I lived in Midland Texas at the time and Joe Good was on a television program two or three times a week, so that was most of my teaching and in my opion it doesn't get much betterbut it is still nice to have some fellowship. I did have all the kids that I homeschooled and they loved the Bible and just took it for what it said, I have to admit, I had alot of parents wanting to know what I was teaching because their kids wanted to keep the Sabbath and follow His Ways. (the kids I homeschooled were 14-18 years of age) Anyway, in 2004 my husband took me from Texas and moved me to Alabama. We now live in this small town (I thought I knew what a redneck was until I moved here). Out of desperation for fellowship we began going to a Sunday church here. I figure that is where Ephraim hangs out. We are doing a Bible study on Tuesday nights now. I think the main problem with most Believers is that they have never read the Word for themselves. So that is what we are doing. We started in Genesis and I am just praying that they will see the whole story. My deal is that I hate going to Sunday church because everything they teach is totally different from what I believe. I don't want to tithe there because I don't want to put God's money into their teaching material. Do you think it's wrong to stay in a Sunday church? I'm not sure. I do know that there are people in that church that truly love the Lord but are just blind to who they are. I feel like He has opened a door with the Bible study and if we quit going it may close that door. I know that He will close or open any door He chooses, I guess I just wanted your input because we don't have anyone to bounce things off of here. I listened to Ross' s teachings all day yesterday and what a blessing he is. margie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/0afc0540/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Feb 3 14:20:39 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 14:20:39 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Miatta F. Kromah. Message-ID: <005601c866a2$3e683150$05000100@davesbook> Miatta F. Kromah, If any one on the dialogue list receives a personal letter from this young girl from Africa, please consider posting that you received one to the list.....If Miatta is for real then something could be done, but in the mean time please beware that I am not sure if she is who she says she is! As she seemed desperate I suggested that she post a short note to the list and we could go from there! what can I say..... dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/9eb914e2/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Feb 3 15:07:57 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 16:07:57 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunderstood Sha'ul? Message-ID: Shalom: Well, can we discus the issues, respect each others views, present our views as our opinions, and follow the instruction that Ross has set for the dialogue? This is a test case and each can inform me if I have passed the Ross test? .My own opinion is that Christianity has misunderstood Sha'ul also called Paulus. What do we make of the statements below? "...For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared righteous." (Rom1:13) : ??What advantage then has the Jews? Or what profit is there of circumcision? Much in every way, chiefly because that unto them were committed the oracles [instruction] of God.? (Rom 3:1-2) "...Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through the same faith; Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31) "...What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, except by the Torah; for I had not known lust, except the Torah had said; Thous shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7) . ??Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good? (Rom 7:12 ??For we know that the Torah is spiritual but I am carnal sold under sin.? (Rom 7:14 ??For I delight in the Torah of God after the inward man. (Rom 7:22) Shalom Clyde **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/9ee640d6/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Feb 3 15:08:24 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:08:24 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] africa Message-ID: <006701c866a8$ea310880$05000100@davesbook> Guys, I also emailed Miatta and asked her to slow down and share her plight with the group, to give us a chance to get to know her. If in fact she is spending her food money to get on line to better herself.....well, that sounds like something i would do! ha Miatta the way this Dialogue works is you write a letter to the list and make sure that the email is addresed to: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org . That way every one will see your email. Please feel free to share your situation, with the understanding that any one can get on this email list, so it is not secure by any means. Pat I understand that Miatta sent you a letter off list, My hopes are that she didnt understand how to address the list and just saw a few email addresses and thought that was how we emailed each other. My fears are that Miatta emailed Margie and Margie is wondering "what is this"......my faith tells me that G-d is directing this. Along with some dreams that i am suppose to share with you guys, now I will have to tell yall of some of my "picking up hitch hikers" (the ones no one else stops for) storys.....now thats a book! dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/735b7f1e/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Sun Feb 3 17:31:01 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 18:31:01 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] africa In-Reply-To: <006701c866a8$ea310880$05000100@davesbook> References: <006701c866a8$ea310880$05000100@davesbook> Message-ID: <001801c866bc$d7a8fc40$0200a8c0@marvin> O.k. Dave.. Lets hear about the hitchhiker's.. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 4:08 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] africa Guys, I also emailed Miatta and asked her to slow down and share her plight with the group, to give us a chance to get to know her. If in fact she is spending her food money to get on line to better herself.....well, that sounds like something i would do! ha Miatta the way this Dialogue works is you write a letter to the list and make sure that the email is addresed to: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org . That way every one will see your email. Please feel free to share your situation, with the understanding that any one can get on this email list, so it is not secure by any means. Pat I understand that Miatta sent you a letter off list, My hopes are that she didnt understand how to address the list and just saw a few email addresses and thought that was how we emailed each other. My fears are that Miatta emailed Margie and Margie is wondering "what is this"......my faith tells me that G-d is directing this. Along with some dreams that i am suppose to share with you guys, now I will have to tell yall of some of my "picking up hitch hikers" (the ones no one else stops for) storys.....now thats a book! dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/30a62263/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 3 18:35:31 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:35:31 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Link for Torah & Corresponding New Testament Readings Message-ID: <020420080035.8234.47A65DD3000673030000202A22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> http://ffoz.org/downloads/torah_study_resources/ If you want to follow along with the weekly Torah readings at the temple this is the schedule we are following. Tammy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/962479be/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Feb 3 19:31:25 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 19:31:25 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] africa References: <006701c866a8$ea310880$05000100@davesbook> <001801c866bc$d7a8fc40$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <008f01c866cd$c6365f00$05000100@davesbook> OK....since you asked..... >From the time I got my D.L. I was always volunteering to give people rides and running errands for people......I loved to drive and would go way out of the way to help "deliver" someone on their travels. This "trait" it seems evolved from short hops accross town to interstate travel.... Having been raised in a nice easy going babtist church and learning the story of the good samaritain (with my own idea of its interpretation), that The Creator would protect and quide me, I concidered it my mission to pick up highway men. And being young and invincible, found myself in some strange and at times embarissing situations. I grew up very close to a small university in Monroe Louisiana... at about the time when streaking was cool.....and there I am crusin' in the 69 malibu on my way home and there he is acutualy running very fast on a bee line course at the edge of campus..him and his tennis shoes in his Adam suit. It looked as if this was ment to be I just gave him "the nod" flung open the door and off we went......so here I am running from the cops with Adam now hidding in the back seat....he needed to get back to his dorm room and the next thing I know he is out the door and away he goes..... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 5:31 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] africa O.k. Dave.. Lets hear about the hitchhiker's.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 4:08 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] africa Guys, I also emailed ......................................... Along with some dreams that i am suppose to share with you guys, now I will have to tell yall of some of my "picking up hitch hikers" (the ones no one else stops for) storys.....now thats a book! dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/09174125/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 3 19:40:29 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:40:29 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunderstood Sha'ul? Message-ID: <020420080140.11972.47A66D0D0007440A00002EC422230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Clyde, >From my study of Sha'uls writtings, and especially Romans, it appears that Sha'ul indicates that Torah-observance is an unattainble goal for sin-born mortals, and therefore puts us in need of a saviour, one who kept Torah completely, and was therefore worthy to lay down his life in our place. My contention with how Sha'ul is taught is that this obviates much of what TaNaKH teaches... and what Yeshua taught as well. Either we are to obey the Torah, or we are not. Most Christian teachers villify any who even attempt to walk in the commandments and the statutes that Torah instructs. They say all that was 'done away with'. How can this apparent dichotomy be reconciled? Do I trust letters written by a fellow disciple, or the G-D breathed Torah lovingly preserved and handed down by the fathers? Just my brief thoughts, Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/8f7cc64d/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 3 19:45:45 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:45:45 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] africa Message-ID: <020420080145.9971.47A66E47000E9773000026F322193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Dave, Dave, Dave! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Dave Cole" : -------------- OK....since you asked..... >From the time I got my D.L. I was always volunteering to give people rides and running errands for people......I loved to drive and would go way out of the way to help "deliver" someone on their travels. This "trait" it seems evolved from short hops accross town to interstate travel.... Having been raised in a nice easy going babtist church and learning the story of the good samaritain (with my own idea of its interpretation), that The Creator would protect and quide me, I concidered it my mission to pick up highway men. And being young and invincible, found myself in some strange and at times embarissing situations. I grew up very close to a small university in Monroe Louisiana... at about the time when streaking was cool.....and there I am crusin' in the 69 malibu on my way home and there he is acutualy running very fast on a bee line course at the edge of campus..him and his tennis shoes in his Adam suit. It looked as if this was ment to be I just gave him "the nod" flung open the door and off we went......so here I am running from the cops with Adam now hidding in the back seat....he needed to get back to his dorm room and the next thing I know he is out the door and away he goes..... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 5:31 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] africa O.k. Dave?. Lets hear about the hitchhiker?s?. From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 4:08 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] africa Guys, I also emailed ......................................... Along with some dreams that i am suppose to share with you guys, now I will have to tell yall of some of my "picking up hitch hikers" (the ones no one else stops for) storys.....now thats a book! dave _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/adf44e21/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 3 20:07:38 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 02:07:38 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunderstood Sha'ul? Message-ID: <020420080207.23887.47A67365000A9F5200005D4F22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Shalom Clyde, As you know I currently share your opinion regarding Paul's writings, that Christianity has misunderstood him. However, I have recently been made aware of a possiblity that Paul was working under a misconception of his own, that the arrival of the Kingdom was right around the corner, not thousands of years in the future. I won't know how this new information might change my opinion as I am re-reading Pauls writings over again with this new idea in mind, I'll let ya know when I'm done. Also, Like Glenn I have been reconsidering my opinion on the relationship of Paul's writings to the Torah and the Gospels. His writings certainly have a place in the instructional scheme (taken in context) but I am beginning to doubt that they carry the weight that the Christian church has assigned to them. Still studying. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from CBrown4465 at aol.com: -------------- Shalom: Well, can we discus the issues, respect each others views, present our views as our opinions, and follow the instruction that Ross has set for the dialogue? This is a test case and each can inform me if I have passed the Ross test? .My own opinion is that Christianity has misunderstood Sha'ul also called Paulus. What do we make of the statements below? "...For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared righteous." (Rom1:13) : ??????What advantage then has the Jews? Or what profit is there of circumcision? Much in every way, chiefly because that unto them were committed the oracles [instruction] of God.??? (Rom 3:1-2) "...Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through the same faith; Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31) "...What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, except by the Torah; for I had not known lust, except the Torah had said; Thous shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7) . ??????Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good??? (Rom 7:12 ??????For we know that the Torah is spiritual but I am carnal sold under sin.??? (Rom 7:14 ??????For I delight in the Torah of God after the inward man. (Rom 7:22) Shalom Clyde Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/6f24db0a/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Feb 3 20:28:51 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:28:51 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] what to do? Welcome Margie In-Reply-To: <982680.47463.qm@web58510.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <982680.47463.qm@web58510.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200802040229.m142T5Lp025725@mail104c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/0ca0e10c/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 3 20:38:43 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 02:38:43 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] what to do? Message-ID: <020420080238.27082.47A67AB0000C26B6000069CA22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Margie, Welcome to the Dialogue. I came out of the Christian scene myself about a year ago I guess (my story is on the dialogue somewhere). I study at Roots of Faith on Saturday and that is where I get fed, we teach each other. But I help a friend lead the music at the last Christian church I attended (which is very close to folding) on Sunday as well, partly as a favor and partly for fun. I have come to see that there is an opportunity to share what I have been learning with those that remain at the church. It is slow going because I don't want to push but I look for chances to interject as best I can. It has become an exercise in paying attention to G-d's voice in my heart instead of my own. So the best advice I can think to give you is to remain available. If G-d closes the door and you are paying attention you will know it. If not then He will complete His work through your choice to remain obediant. Please feel free to jump into the conversations here, we are all searching like you. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Margie Creech : -------------- Hi! I'm new to this group and would like to just give you a little background about myself before I present my question. I hope this doesn't get too long but this is what is going on in my life. In 1996 I started homeschooling my children and it grew into homeschooling many children of friends and high risk kids from my community. I began to pray that God would show me what I should use for literature and it hit me that we should use the Bible. duh! So my journey began, We would begin in Genesis and read through the Bible every year. After the first time I had so many questions. He said the Sabbath is forever. I thought I was losing my mind. I would go to my husband in tears and show him what the Word said and he thought I was crazy too. I would tell him that I knew we weren't suppose to do the Feast but I was sure about the Sabbath. Finally after much prayer he began to see it. We started keeping the Sabbath and continued going to Sunday church. Then as I continued t o study I was sure we should be keep the Feast. So we started keeping them too. In 1996 there were three lunar eclipse. One on Passover, Tabernacle, and Purim if I remember correctly. I felt God was bringing attention to His Feast. It was confirmation to me that I was on the right track. As I continued studying the Word year after year with my students it became more and more clear about Judah and Ephraim. I was saved in 1984 and had always felt there had to be more but didn't know what it was. We went to every tent meeting and listened to so much kooky stuff but always came up empty. God is so AWESOME and faithful. As I continued to get into His Word He showed me a little every year. After we began keeping Sabbath and the Feast the feeling of there has to be more disappeared. Any way,all that just to say that we left Sunday worship behind and in 1997 quit doing Christmas, Easter, and all the other pagan holidays we had done. That was the thing that really made all our friends think we had gone over the edge and were into something really wierd. I would show them in the Word and they would say that they didn't care what the Word said that Jesus changed everything and I didn't need to read anything that wasn't in the NT. I felt really isolated. I lived in Midland Texas at the time and Joe Good was on a television program two or three times a week, so that was most of my teaching and in my opion it doesn't get much betterbut it is still nice to have some fellowship. I did have all the kids that I homeschooled and they loved the Bible and just took it for what it said, I have to admit, I had alot of parents wanting to know what I was teaching because their kids wanted to keep the Sabbath and follow His Ways. (the kids I homeschooled were 14-18 years of age) Anyway, in 2004 my husband took me from Texas and moved me to Alabama. We now live in this small town (I thought I knew what a redneck was until I moved here). Out of desperation for f ellowship we began going to a Sunday church here. I figure that is where Ephraim hangs out. We are doing a Bible study on Tuesday nights now. I think the main problem with most Believers is that they have never read the Word for themselves. So that is what we are doing. We started in Genesis and I am just praying that they will see the whole story. My deal is that I hate going to Sunday church because everything they teach is totally different from what I believe. I don't want to tithe there because I don't want to put God's money into their teaching material. Do you think it's wrong to stay in a Sunday church? I'm not sure. I do know that there are people in that church that truly love the Lord but are just blind to who they are. I feel like He has opened a door with the Bible study and if we quit going it may close that door. I know that He will close or open any door He chooses, I guess I just wanted your input because we don't have anyone to bounce things off of he re. I listened to Ross' s teachings all day yesterday and what a blessing he is. margie Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/13ad8996/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Feb 3 20:40:40 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:40:40 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] africa In-Reply-To: <006701c866a8$ea310880$05000100@davesbook> References: <006701c866a8$ea310880$05000100@davesbook> Message-ID: <200802040240.m142eTDd001994@mail107c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/854109b6/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Feb 3 21:25:25 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:25:25 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunders... Message-ID: John The Jerusalem apostles were under the same early notion that the kingdom would be established in their generation. However, whether the kingdom would have been set up in the first generation or two-thousand years later would make no difference in my opinion, the Torah must be kept. I think with the 7 positive Torah obedience confirmation of Torah in Romans, I think equal confirmation of Paul in any attempt to nullify the Torah must be presented. So far I cannot find even one hint that Paul ever allowed even the thought of abolishing the Torah to enter his thought. What do you think? Clyde **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/45b229a0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunderstood Sha'ul? Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 02:07:38 +0000 Size: 11428 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/45b229a0/attachment.mht From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 3 22:53:50 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 23:53:50 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A Virtual tour of the Temple Mount Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), For those of you who have never had the privilege to have been up to the Har HaBayit (Temple Mount), this is a MUST see. I will write about my experiences having gone up (to those areas permitted by Jewish law, and after having immersed in a Mikvah - ritual bath) there, to have been SO CLOSE to the holiest of holies....so near, yet SO far....Please - check this out - _Click here: Free Virtual Tour Offers Entire World Glimpse of Temple Mount - Jewish World - Israel News - Arutz Sheva_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125122) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/809dbee5/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 3 23:17:21 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 05:17:21 +0000 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunders... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2133216864-1202102443-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1268938505-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I agree. There is no doubt in my mind that Paul considered Torah observance of paramount importance, but that is what makes letters like Galations so troubling. I need to give this new (for me) perspective a fair audience before I can honestly draw further coclusions. Paul makes statements that are either at odds with Torah observance or grossley misunderstood otherwise there would be no question to discuss. Either way the fact that there is so much controversy around his writings indicates that they cannot be understood without deeper knowledge of their context which, in my opinion, sets them apart from the rest of the Tanach. Well actually that goes for all of the letters but in particular Paul. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:25:25 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunders... John ? The Jerusalem apostles were under the same early notion that the kingdom would be established in their generation. However, whether the kingdom would have been set up in the first generation or two-thousand years later would make no difference in my opinion, the Torah must be kept. I think with the 7 positive Torah obedience confirmation of Torah in Romans, I think equal confirmation of Paul in any attempt to nullify the Torah must be presented. So far I cannot find even one hint that Paul ever allowed even the thought of abolishing the Torah to enter his thought. What do you think? ? Clyde ---------------- Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Feb 3 23:58:30 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 23:58:30 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] the good samaritan Message-ID: <009a01c866f2$f8878950$6400a8c0@davesbook> That email was not suppose to go out at that time.....I got a phone call to drive across town to get the daughter of a friend out of jail (needed a sober driver).....and in my haste to get out the door, my email sent that out as I was trying to save it....whoops continued.... These sort of situations continued to happen and although I did not have a clue, at the time, G-d was shaping and forming me to be have the ability to "make lemonade out of lemons". I was truly a rebel with out a cause.....although I had not at this point, "joined the church" (my term), I knew that at some point some how I was to be brought into fellowship with the Father. I just had a Love for Him and just could not 'see' how I was to fit in with mainstream churchyanity. I knew the 10 commandments, although somehow I missed the Sabbath part (the replacement doc.) and for the most part was convinced that I was following these rules. I was slowly turning into a liberal minded equal rights, live and let live sort of guy....I knew how to turn away most churchy people that were concerned about my soul and for the most part got into some Vice, that looking back, I should not have survived. (I will invoke the 5th here). Fast forward to the young age of 24 and a good hitch in the US Navy (side bar....John Carlson, whom I would not meet for another 20 years, both received our discharge from the navy on the same day!). Moving to New Orleans to finish school, and to launch the career I had conceived, trying to forget about all religious ideas (still doing pretty good in what I figured where the big sins). Along comes a Girl dragging 3 young children and smiling. They walked right up to me as I was sitting at a K-Mart on one of those amusement horses, the ones you put quarters in, and told me "Jesus Loved me"......Sherry handed me her phone number and simply walked away.....WHAT.....I was struck.....not by her (yea right), But by the genuine sincerity that I felt from this band of what looked like gypsy's to me. They Just stole my Heart. I was waiting for my ride home as it was a rainy day and my transportation was one of those mopeds...so I am sitting there with my construction hard hat on riding the K-Mart horse with a big ole Jesus Loves me smile......wow! to be continued......part 2....Mardi Gras and the Pentecostal preacher. somehow dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080203/c50d238f/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Mon Feb 4 00:11:39 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:11:39 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianity misunderstood Sha'ul? In-Reply-To: <020420080140.11972.47A66D0D0007440A00002EC422230706129B0A0 2D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <020420080140.11972.47A66D0D0007440A00002EC422230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: <200802040611.m146BREf004217@mail2534.carrierzone.com> Just some reactions to this Paul and Torah observance controversy among Christians. It seems, that if the Torah was unattainable, then God made a mistake in prescribing the Torah to Israel and for that matter the world. He makes no mistakes. If Paul advocated not keeping the Torah, then at best he made a big conceptual mistake, and at worst is a deliberate false teacher. If he advocated not keeping the Torah, then he went against his rabbi, who taught that not a yod or even a taggin is done away from the Torah. In fact, in a vision, he was seen standing between Moses, through whom the Torah was given, and Elijah, through whom the Torah is restored to Israel and vice versa. He taught that ALL the Torah was to be kept, from the greatest to the smallest commandments, only one was not to major in the minors. There is something wrong with this whole picture, and the teachings of churchianity will be exposed for what they are, and that they have NOT known much less kept the teachings of their teacher. The fact that we are sinners by nature, does not give us license to not keep the Torah. I never heard of anyone who was trying to keep the Torah to earn eternal life and a seat next to God. This is a straw man invented a long time ago, as is the vilification of the Torah by a lot of Christians in ancient and modern times. The earliest Christians were taken by the rabbinical powers of the day as extremely observant to the spirit and to the letter. If most Christians knew what their Rabbi preached and required, e.g. "If you will enter into Life, keep the commandments," they would not be "Christians" (as they are known today), at all. Nowhere did he say that by such observance eternal life is earned, just that it is required "training" for the kind of character that God desires for us to learn in this school called human life. Eternal life is a gift of God....and always was... not anything that is earned by anyone. Steve At 05:40 PM 2/3/2008, you wrote: >Clyde, > > From my study of Sha'uls writtings, and especially Romans, it > appears that Sha'ul indicates that Torah-observance is an > unattainble goal for sin-born mortals, and therefore puts us in > need of a saviour, one who kept Torah completely, and was therefore > worthy to lay down his life in our place. My contention with how > Sha'ul is taught is that this obviates much of what TaNaKH > teaches... and what Yeshua taught as well. > >Either we are to obey the Torah, or we are not. Most Christian >teachers villify any who even attempt to walk in the commandments >and the statutes that Torah instructs. They say all that was 'done >away with'. How can this apparent dichotomy be reconciled? Do I >trust letters written by a fellow disciple, or the G-D breathed >Torah lovingly preserved and handed down by the fathers? > >Just my brief thoughts, > >Glenn >_______________________________________________ From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 4 06:03:57 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:03:57 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A thought for 28 Shevat 5768 Message-ID: Shalom v'Boker Tov from the Lekarev Report, There are many who say: 'Oh that we could see some good!' Hashem, lift up the light of Your countenance upon us. Psalm 4:6 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/17be684c/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 4 06:24:50 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:24:50 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "The Myths of Peace and the Reality of our Dead Boys" Message-ID: The Myths of Peace and the Reality of our Dead Boys 27 Shevat 5768, 03 February 08 01:59 by Naomi Ragen (IsraelNN.com) I want to tell you the story of two boys: twenty year olds; both of them in the elite of elite army units; both of them from rabbinical families; both of them living in Kiryat Arba, the Jewish neighborhood of Hebron. Achikam Amichai and David Rubin were out on leave from their IDF units, enjoying a well-earned holiday. They decided one Friday afternoon to take take a little hike in their backyards. Their friend, Naama Ohayon, went with them. It was a beautiful day, beautiful scenery, wild and open, as it is in that part of the land of Israel. They passed an Arab, who asked them for water. The boys gave it to him, then waved goodbye and went on their way. A short while later, alerted by the Palestinian they had shared water with, three armed terrorists - who had been lying in wait for an opportunity to kill Israelis and steal their weapons - drove by and opened fire on the three young people. Our boys, ambushed and badly wounded, nevertheless, began firing, killing the terrorist driver of the car. The other two terrorists then hopped out of the car, put their guns at point-blank range to the fatally injured boys and fired. These "big heroes" then threw their dead comrade out of the car like so much garbage and took off, back to Hebron where they live. Hiding In the forest, Naama Ohayon, who had miraculously escaped, used her cell phone to contact Israeli security forces. They praised her unbelievable cool in the face of the horror she had witnessed. Security forces rescued her, but it was too late for the boys. Meanwhile, Shimon Peres found time for a photo opportunity, shaking hands with a member of Abu Mazen's government who expressed his "condolences." This, of course, before it became known that the killers were Abu Mazen's paid employees. According to Efrat Weiss, writing for Ynet, sometime on Friday evening, the Palestinian Authority started the rumor that it wasn't a terrorist attack at all, but a "drug deal" gone bad. This went all over the Israeli news; and you can just imagine how the parents must have felt. Others said the boys had no right to go hiking. (Right, let's all stay in our homes and quake.) Meanwhile, the two murderers, fearing the IDF was closing in on them, turned themselves over to Palestinian security forces, who didn't say a word about this to the Israelis. However, when Israeli security asked them pointedly to turn over the weapons of the murderers and the victims, they did. But they didn't turn over the killers, whom they were still "interrogating." Surprise, surprise. They weren't Hamas operatives. They were salary-earning members of the Palestinian Authority, paid for by US and European Union dona tions to Abu Mazen. He's the "good Palestinian," as opposed to the Hamas, who are terrorists and "bad Palestinians," the ones we need to weaken by supporting Abu Mazen and his gang of thugs. The names of the murderers are Omar Badar Ali-Halim Teha - a resident of Hebron, 26, a "soldier" in the Palestinian National Security Forces and an active member of Fatah - and Ali al-Hamid Regev Dindis - a 24-year-old Hebron resident who is a clerk in the Sharia Court of the Palestinian Authority and also connected to the Palestinian Secret Service. The dead driver is 23 year old Radil Abdul Naim Natshe. There are many conclusions to be drawn from this story. I will leave you to draw those concerning the myths of making peace with the Palestinian Authority. Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/b0d46d69/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 4 06:38:16 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:38:16 EST Subject: [Dialogue] New Book about the Ark of the Covenant Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim vBoker Tov! This is a very interesting piece by Tudor Parfitt, who has written about the Lost Tribes, and the connection between the Lemba of South Africa and the Jewish people. He wrote: He wrote: I shall be giving a talk in Boston on 3rd March on links between the Ark of the Covenant and the black Jews of Africa to mark the publication on my new book THE ARK OF THE COVENANT published by Harper Collins. The documentary based on the book will be shown in the USA on the 2nd March on the History Channel. I have included the link to _www.amazon.com_ (http://www.amazon.com/) for those who would be interested in reading it - it's being published later this month. There have been many stories over the years of Shlomo HaMelech (King Solomon) having had a son with the Queen of Sheba, and the Ark of the Covenant winding up in Africa (Ethiopia, for instance). _Click here: Amazon.com: The Lost Ark of the Covenant: Solving the 2,500 Year Old Mystery of the Fabled Biblical Ark: Books: Tu_ (http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Ark-Covenant-Solving-Biblical/dp/0061371033/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=12 02128182&sr=1-1) I'll reserve comments until I read the book :-) Just thought you'd be interested! Yom Naim! (Have a pleasant day!) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/4d7fc45b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 4 06:39:52 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:39:52 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Another take on this past week's Torah Portion Message-ID: Mishpatim: The Ta'am of Your Life 27 Shevat 5768, 03 February 08 01:56 by Rabbi S. Weiss (IsraelNN.com) "You may be familiar with the classic debate over the powerful statement Bnei Yisrael makes near the end of our parsha. Moshe reads the people the Sefer HaBrit and they respond in unison: "Na'aseh v'nishma?- ?We shall do and we shall hear!" For some, this is the quintessential statement of emunah: "I will obey HaShem, faithfully, completely and without hesitation, and only later will I stop to contemplate what I have done." For others, this maxim reflects a slavish, primitive behavior, implying that G-d wants us to be like robots that blindly do His will without thinking whatsoever about our actions. I suggest both approaches are wrong - and right. Let us take our cue from the very first pasuk in the sedra: "These are the laws that you shall place before them.? Rashi wonders about the phrase "place before them" and comments: "Said G-d to Moshe: 'Don't think your responsibility begins and ends by teaching the people a pasuk or a halacha; you must endeavor to teach them the reason for it, so that it is like a set table.'" In other words, it is primarily the ta'am (reason) for the mitzvah that gives it its ta'am (taste). Here is the dichotomy: We must trust in HaShem and follow His instructions, even if we do not always understand why we are doing what we are doing. Just as a soldier is taught in basic training to follow his commanding officer without hesitation, so we must discipline ourselves to be loyal to G-d's will, for He knows best. But if it stops there, then we'll never have a full appreciation of the Torah and its marvelous mitzvot. If we just keep Shabbat and never contemplate how, by doing so, we are witness to Creation and to G-d's very existence; if we mumble a bracha, but do not appreciate how blessed we are each day; if we light candles, but do not see reflected in them our mission to enlighten a dark world - then we have missed something major. And that is why, I suggest, at the end of the parsha, first Bnei Yisrael responds, "Na'aseh? - ?We will do" (23:3). Then, four p'sukim later, they declare, "Na'ase v'nishma?- ?We will do and we will hear!" What happened between the two statements? Perhaps Moshe told them that "doing" was a great first step; but hearing and understanding the deeper meaning of their actions is the key to an even closer relationship with G-d. So let's do; but let's hear, also." Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/899cb7e7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 4 07:17:18 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 08:17:18 EST Subject: [Dialogue] from "Dispatches from an Anxious State" Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, This article below is from Daniel Gordis' excellent blog:( _www.danielgordis.org_ (http://www.danielgordis.org/) ); ; although it seems to start with a debate within the Mishnah, keep reading, it's well worth it, and very thought provoking. I'd be interested to hear your reactions... Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Back to the Mishnah 02 January 2008 I was in seventh grade when my parents apparently decided that it was time for me to start studying Talmud. So a couple of times a week, I?d get pulled from some other class and go sit in a closet-sized room with a kind, quiet man from the old country, and we?d open the first chapter of Bava Metzia. We started with the Mishnah, the way you?re supposed to, and he made me memorize it (the way you?re supposed to). This particular Mishnah, quite appropriate to the tenor of our times, is about how you divide things up when they are contested: If two people are holding on to a tallit, this one saying, ?I found it,? and that one saying ?I found it,? this one saying ?it?s all mine,? and that one saying ?it?s all mine,? [then] this one takes an oath that he has a share of no less than half, and this one takes an oath that he has a share of no less than half, and they divide it [equally]. [But] if this one says ?it?s all mine? and that one says ?half of it is mine,? [then] the one who says ?it?s all mine? takes an oath that he has a share of no less than three quarters, and the one who says ?half of it is mine? takes an oath that he has a share of no less than one quarter. This one then takes three quarters, and that one gets one quarter. I must not have been a terribly insightful seventh grader, because it took me a really long time (much longer than I?ll admit in this setting) to realize that the tallit didn?t necessarily have to mean a ritual garment, but that it could be anything. With time, thankfully, I figured that out. Even back then, though, it was clear that the Mishnah was seeking fairness. If two people each claimed the whole thing, then the equitable thing to do was to divide it up evenly. But if one claimed it all, and one claimed only half, dividing it equally would be to give no credence to the claim of the one who claimed everything. So then, it was split 3:1. Seems fair, doesn?t it? Fairness seems to be what Israel?s leaders believe will settle the Mid-East conflict. One land, claimed by two peoples. Kind of sounds like the Mishnah, they apparently believe. So the fair, equitable thing to do is to split it. But the Mishnah?s notion of equity works only if both parties buy into those ground-rules, if what both sides want is fairness. But what if equity isn?t what both parties seek? What if one party really wants the whole thing while the other party is still willing to compromise? Perhaps the Mishnah then becomes irrelevant? I don?t think so. Because, I?ve begun to think, you can read the Mishnah so that it?s not only about fairness, or justice. Perhaps we can read the Mishnah as hinting at a kind of realpolitik, about the need to figure out how the world really works if you?re going to survive. In that case, the Mishnah can be read like this: If you and someone else are bound to divide something up, and they agree to split it with you and offer to give you half, don?t budge. Claim the whole thing for yourself. The more you claim, the more you?ll get. Forget fairness. Once they offer you half, you just claim the whole thing. You?ll get a lot more that way. Now, in fairness, that?s not at all what the Mishnah really means. But that does seem to be the tactic that the Palestinians have adopted, doesn?t it? They? ve figured it out ? if you really want something, the smart thing to do is to claim the whole thing. You?re bound to get more than the honest fool who starts out with a bargaining position that asks for only half. This renewed Palestinian strategy became patently obvious in the weeks before and after the Annapolis summit. Well, not from the summit itself, exactly, but from the ?negotiations? (if they can be called that) before and after, and more precisely, from the Palestinian refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish State. While the Jewish character of the Jewish State may seem rather self-evident to many observers, to Abu Mazen and his band of merry men, matters are much less obvious. Abu Mazen gave an interview to Israeli radio on December 1 in which he stated that there are two states in the area, Israel and Palestine. ?In Israel, there are Jews and others, and that is the only thing that we are willing to recognize.? In other words, Israel is for Jews and Arabs. And Palestine is for ? Jews, too? Of course not. The plan is clear. Yasser Abed Rabbo, a member of the PLO Executive Committee, always good for an entertaining quote, did not disappoint this time, either. He remarked, ?It is only a Zionist party that deals with Israel as a Jewish State, and we did not request to be a member of the international Zionist Movement.? OK, we?ll make a note of that for future reference. And Saeb Erekat, Abu Mazen?s exquisitely-dressed chief negotiator, put matters even more bluntly: ?Israel can define itself how it sees fit, and if it wishes to call itself a Jewish state, so be it. But the Palestinians will never acknowledge Israel?s Jewish identity.? So far, nothing new. But then Erekat went even further and stated to Israeli radio, ?No State in the world connects its national identity to a religious identity.? Now that would seem a bit more difficult to argue. I?m sure that the Queen Elizabeth would be surprised to hear that, since the web site of the Church of England specifically notes that ?Her Majesty the Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, and ? she appoints archbishops, bishops and deans of cathedrals on the advice of the Prime Minister.? Perhaps, however, Erekat isn?t terribly interested in the Church of England. That?s understandable after all, one imagines that he?s got a pretty full agenda. But is he also uninterested in the Basic Law of the Palestinian Authority? That, you would think, is pretty important to him, no? Does he not recall Article IV? ? ?Islam is the official religion of Palestine.? So much for ?No State in the world connects its national identity to a religious identity.? These comments from Yasser Abed Rabbo and Saeb Erekat are so nonsensical that you have to begin to ask yourself why intelligent people would reduce themselves to uttering such pablum. What?s going on? What?s going on, of course, is nothing new. It?s part of an ongoing Palestinian tactic to argue that the Jews have no real place here, that we invented our connection to the Land of Israel, and that our presence here ? like that of the Crusaders ? is both illegitimate and destined to end. To return to the Mishnah, it?s the Palestinians? way of saying, ?It?s all ours.? Arafat, himself, had perfected this strategy long before his death. In an interview he gave to the London Arabic daily Al-Hayat on October 5, 2002, for example, he explained, "They found not a single stone proving that the Temple of Solomon was there, because historically the Temple was not in Palestine.? We? ll make a note of that, too. And other academics have picked up where Arafat left off. Barnard College?s Abu El-Haj, one who wrote a book in 2001 titled Facts on the Ground: Archaeological Practice and Territorial Self-Fashioning in Israeli Society, argues that Israeli archaeology has been a politically motivated, scientifically questionable undertaking, interested only in validating a ?national origin myth.? Despite numerous assertions that her scholarship was shoddy, Barnard recently decided to grant her tenure. ?Now,? you might be tempted to say, ?Isn?t this all just a tempest in a teapot?? After all, who really cares what Abu Mazen or Saeb Erekat say about Israel as a Jewish state? Arafat is dead, and Abu El-Haj is pretty irrelevant to most of the world. What?s the big deal? Let Israel call itself Jewish, and let the rest of the world say and believe what it chooses. Why should we care? We should care because these people are very strategic. And what they?re engaging in here isn?t mere public relations. What they?re doing is preparing the ground for the next assault not just on the definition of Israel as a Jewish state, but on the Jewish state itself. And if you believe, as I do, that without a Jewish state, the Jews have a bleak future, indeed, then what they?re actually doing is preparing the next assault on the Jewish people, period. How so? The Palestinians have come to realize that they?re not going to destroy Israel with suicide bombers and Kassams. True, Nassrallah can put up a good fight in the summer of 2006, and lead Israel into paroxysms of self-doubt about the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the IDF. But even Nasrallah himself later admitted that ?You ask me, if I had known on July 11 ... that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not.? Without planes, without tanks, without the weaponry of Israel?s army, they can train and train and do more and more damage, but they can?t ultimately win. (Iran poses a new sort of threat, of course, but one hopes that that will be dealt with unambiguously before too much more time passes.) Suicide bombers and terrorists can make Israel miserable but they can?t destroy the state. What then? Well, the Palestinians have decided, the war can be won demographically instead of militarily. And one of the key ways of winning the demographic war is to deny Israel?s Jewish character. For if Israel is not a Jewish state, what reason could there possibly be not to allow the millions of Palestinian refugees back into Israel? Israel?s objection has been, of course, that doing so would turn Jews into a minority in Israel almost overnight. As long as Israel is meant to be a Jewish state, that?s a powerful argument. But if Israel? s not necessarily a Jewish state, then what difference does it make if Jews are a minority? They?re a minority in America is that so terrible? The only reason not to allow the refugees into Israel would be callousness, or worse, racism. ?Is racism what the Jews are all about?? Abu Mazen is getting ready to ask the world. It?s actually a pretty clever setup. That?s why this is not a tempest in a teapot. That?s why smart people like Abu Mazen, Yasser Abed Rabbo and Saeb Erekat utter what sound like idiotic sound bites. They?re not trying to win a debate they?re trying to win a war. And as the Mishnah can be read to suggest, the more you claim, the more you?ll get. So we claim half, they claim the whole thing, and before you know it ? Back to the Mishnah. Permit me one more reading, even further out on the proverbial interpretive limb, but still?. It?s not about fairness, or justice. It? s not even about realpolitik and ?street smarts.? It?s about love ? if you love this contested entity so deeply and such passion that you genuinely believe that it should all be yours, and deep in your heart, you can?t imagine sharing it with anyone else, then your ?opponent?, who likes it and wants it ? but doesn?t love it ? doesn?t stand a chance. Love always wins. ?What?s love got to do with it?? one might ask, with apologies to Tina Turner. Love has everything to do with it. The non-compromising stance of the Palestinians may sound backward or unsophisticated to us, but to their own population, it communicates pure, unadulterated love, and a non-negotiable sense of entitlement. ?We love this land. It?s always been ours, and no one else?s. We won?t give it up. It belongs to us, and only to us.? Exactly what we say when we love someone. And on our side? Love is not to be found in the abundance it used to be. I had occasion to interview a small group of Israeli high school kids a short while back, for a friend in the States who needed the transcript for a project. My only job was to sit around a table with them and talk to them, while a photographer snapped some shots, and a reporter fiddled with a tape recorder. I?d never met any of these kids before they showed up at our apartment, but it was easy to get a read on the them. Native Israelis, all. Smart kids, nice kids. Pretty sophisticated kids. Kids from the best (very) modern religious high schools in Jerusalem. Some boys, some girls. So we talked about Israel, their dreams for Israel, the army, their future. But as great as these kids were, I began to get nervous mid-way through the conversation. I asked about the army. Interestingly, the girls were going. The boys ? less clear. One tells us that his profile has him slotted for a non-combat role. Perfectly legit, but it?s clear that he?s deeply relieved. I?m not. The other boy says that he?s not sure what he?ll be doing. Or that he?s going to the army at all, for that matter. He?s definitely not going into a combat role. Why? Because he doesn?t want to find himself in situations where he might be asked to do things that are morally questionable. And maybe he won?t go at all. ?Even if you avoid the army and just go out and work,? he tells me with utter seriousness, ?you?re still supporting the State, because you?re paying taxes.? Right. Why was I reminded of Yasser Abed Rabbo? So I push the kids. Annapolis was just over, and the ?Jewish State thing? was still brewing. ?Why do we need this State in the first place?? I asked them. No answers. ?Well,? I pushed, ?what have people said about that question when you?ve discussed it in school?? Still silence. ?No one?s ever asked me that question before,? one of them admits. The others nod their heads. ?Really?? I ask, trying to conceal my amazement. You go to the very best religious schools, you?re almost done with high school, and no one ? not at any point ? has ever raised the question of why the Jews need a State? They all shake their heads. Never. That?s the rub. The Palestinians get it, and are raising a generation of children to believe that not a single inch of this place is ours. And we? We?re taking our best and brightest, in the best schools we have, and just don?t talk about it. Then, as they?re about to graduate high school, someone asks them why the Jews need a state, and they are completely stumped. They?ve never thought about it. It?s simply never occurred to them. It?s that Mishnah thing again. They?re asking for it all, and our kids ? they ?ve actually never been taught why they should ask for any of it, beyond the fact that they live here. They were smart, these kids, but there wasn?t a lot of passion. ?I live here.? ?I was raised here.? ?My parents moved here.? Why do I suspect that if I hadn?t been in the room, and one of them had asked the others about a boyfriend or girlfriend, they would have had a lot more to say? Which leads us to Ehud Olmert?s latest warning that we have to prepare ourselves for a divided Jerusalem. ?The world that is friendly to Israel ... that really supports Israel, when it speaks of the future, it speaks of Israel in terms of the '67 borders. It speaks of the division of Jerusalem,? he told the Jerusalem Post in the issue printed on January 1. He may be right about how the world sees the situation. And for calling it like he sees it, he surely can?t really be faulted. But even if he?s completely convinced that we have no choice (which is far from obvious to many others), where is the sense of pain, of loss, of regret? Where?s the love for a city that Jews have dreamed of for thousands of years? Where?s the plea at the end of the Seder, ?Next Year in Jerusalem,? or the yearning of the kedushah on Shabbat morning, ?When will You reign in Zion, may it be speedily in our day?? Where?s the love, the almost erotic longing in Shuli Natan?s rendition of ?Jerusalem of Gold?? Is this just about borders? About agreements? About international approval? Or is it about thousands of years of dreaming, of yearning, and more recently, of incredible courage in the battles to have those dreams come true? You do hear love these days, passion for Jerusalem, an unwillingness to cede it. But you hear it from the Palestinians, who?re even putting stickers (in Hebrew) with the Arabic word for Jerusalem on the Kassams they?re firing into Israel. They know what they want, they know what they love, they know what they won?t live without. Which bring us back to the Mishnah, and its warning of who wins the day. Reread for our times, it?s not about fairness, or equity. (Those require two sides that play by the same rules.) It?s about realpolitik, and yes, it?s about love. It?s about the obvious fact that if you want to survive in this part of the world, you can?t just roll over and play dead, compromising on your eternal city while they?re still denying that you have a right to be here at all. Because around here, things work differently. Indeed, pay close enough attention, and you learn that you could re-write the Mishnah this way: If two peoples claim a land, and one side claims all, while the other side claims half ?. In the Middle East, the side that claims only half might as well start packing. **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/9ed280f5/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Feb 4 09:23:12 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 10:23:12 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Closing thoughts on Paul Message-ID: Steve, John, & Glenn Excellent comments from each of you. Yes, nearly 50 years ago now I began to keep the Sabbath and calendar festivals of G-D. It is thrilling to observe the lost sheep of the house of Israel coming out the dry bones Christian churches. I will make a few comments and then let the thread drop. One of our difficulties with Paul we are not sure what the issues were he was addressing in his letters. It is like only hearing one side of a phone conversation. Paul's Halakha is best captured in 1st Corinthians where he is addressing questions from the congregations in Corinth. I will comment and give my view on two sets of texts for each to consider. ??Only let everyone lead the life which the Lord has assigned him, and in which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised, let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was any one at the time of his call uncircumcised, let him not seek circumcision. For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God? (1Co 7:17-19). What is striking here is Paul is stating being Jewish is not anything and being Gentile is not anything, but what is important for both is keeping the commandments of God. This is what is referred as Pail?s status quo. The congregations in Corinth were comprised of Jews, proselytes, and Gentile God-fearers still in their foreskin. Being circumcised. i.e. Jews and proselytes, or being a Gentile still in their foreskin is not anything in the body of the messiah, but what is something is keeping the commandments of God. Now this fits perfectly the 7 sets of texts in the letter to the congregations in Rome, which were also comprised of both Jewish and Gentile believers. How else could the mixed congregations remain as one body of believers unless the kept the Sabbath and calendar festivals? In other words unless they were all ? keeping the commandments of God? As a side-bar comment it appears except for the Gentile God-fearer to remain in his foreskin ? in everything else they all kept the same commandments of God. Why should the Gentile God-fearer not become circumcised? Because God is one and the redeemer of all who call upon his name. And of course to call upon the name of God is to obey him. The pattern was always the same, the grace of God comes first, and as a result of that grace, the obligation is to k eep the commandments of God. The Christian church emphasizes the grace of God, but is totally ignorant of what is required to stay in the grace of God, and that is to keep his commandments. Now to the second set of texts after which I will drop this thread... ??For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave [servant] to all, that I might win the more. To the Jews I became Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the Torah, [circumcision covenant] I became as one under the Torah, [circumcision covenant] that I might win those under the Torah [circumcision covenant]. To those outside the Torah, [Gentiles still in their foreskin] I became as one outside the Torah ? not being without Torah toward God but under the Torah of Christ, that I might win those outside the Torah [circumcision covenant]? (1Co 9:19-21). Now notice the Jews, including the Jewish Paul are under the Torah, i.e. circumcision covenant given through Moses at mount Sinai. As we all know the covenant at Sinai was to the children of Israel only. The stranger, i.e. Gentile in the midst of the children of Israel, Ex 12:48-50, had to receive circumcision to come near and keep the Passover. When they had received circumcision they were as a home-born Israelite. But then notice the Gentile still in his foreskin is not without Torah toward God. It is here since God is one and the creator of ethnicity the Gentile believer is not without the Torah of God, since in his foreskin he has the Torah of the messiah. Well, what was the Torah of the messiah? Each of you have stated it well, the Torah of Yeshua was the Torah of God. All of the apostles worked with the Torah, Prophets, and Writings in the Tanakh, the same Torah and Prophets, Matt 5:17-20, as long as heaven and earth remains one jot or tittel shall in now wise pass away. And so in my opinion, whether of Judah, the ten tribes, or a Gentile still in his foreskin ? ALL ARE TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD With this I shall drop the thread. Shalom Clyde... **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/a83dc3a0/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 11:11:31 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 09:11:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunderstood Sha'ul? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <206612.15834.qm@web37506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well said Clyde! Christianity has a habit of spritualizing everything, and think the Torah [all of the TaNaK, for that matter] is a good reference tool, but no longer applies today. We cannot forget to pray for our fellow Israelite brothers and sisters, for they too have an inheritance, they are blinded. Let's not cast them by the wayside. Paul CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: Shalom: Well, can we discus the issues, respect each others views, present our views as our opinions, and follow the instruction that Ross has set for the dialogue? This is a test case and each can inform me if I have passed the Ross test? .My own opinion is that Christianity has misunderstood Sha'ul also called Paulus. What do we make of the statements below? "...For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared righteous." (Rom1:13) : ??????What advantage then has the Jews? Or what profit is there of circumcision? Much in every way, chiefly because that unto them were committed the oracles [instruction] of God.??? (Rom 3:1-2) "...Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through the same faith; Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31) "...What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, except by the Torah; for I had not known lust, except the Torah had said; Thous shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7) . ??????Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good??? (Rom 7:12 ??????For we know that the Torah is spiritual but I am carnal sold under sin.??? (Rom 7:14 ??????For I delight in the Torah of God after the inward man. (Rom 7:22) Shalom Clyde --------------------------------- Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/ec5a84c4/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 11:16:54 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 09:16:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] africa In-Reply-To: <008f01c866cd$c6365f00$05000100@davesbook> Message-ID: <202296.74552.qm@web37510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Too funny..... Dave Cole wrote: v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } .shape { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } OK....since you asked..... From the time I got my D.L. I was always volunteering to give people rides and running errands for people......I loved to drive and would go way out of the way to help "deliver" someone on their travels. This "trait" it seems evolved from short hops accross town to interstate travel.... Having been raised in a nice easy going babtist church and learning the story of the good samaritain (with my own idea of its interpretation), that The Creator would protect and quide me, I concidered it my mission to pick up highway men. And being young and invincible, found myself in some strange and at times embarissing situations. I grew up very close to a small university in Monroe Louisiana... at about the time when streaking was cool.....and there I am crusin' in the 69 malibu on my way home and there he is acutualy running very fast on a bee line course at the edge of campus..him and his tennis shoes in his Adam suit. It looked as if this was ment to be I just gave him "the nod" flung open the door and off we went......so here I am running from the cops with Adam now hidding in the back seat....he needed to get back to his dorm room and the next thing I know he is out the door and away he goes..... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 5:31 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] africa O.k. Dave . Lets hear about the hitchhiker?s . --------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 4:08 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] africa Guys, I also emailed ......................................... Along with some dreams that i am suppose to share with you guys, now I will have to tell yall of some of my "picking up hitch hikers" (the ones no one else stops for) storys.....now thats a book! dave --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/82c47abc/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 11:30:49 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 09:30:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] A Virtual tour of the Temple Mount In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <158960.25656.qm@web37503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks Hannoch...I didn't get time to vieww all of it, but it makes me homesick, and I've never been there! YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), For those of you who have never had the privilege to have been up to the Har HaBayit (Temple Mount), this is a MUST see. I will write about my experiences having gone up (to those areas permitted by Jewish law, and after having immersed in a Mikvah - ritual bath) there, to have been SO CLOSE to the holiest of holies....so near, yet SO far....Please - check this out - Click here: Free Virtual Tour Offers Entire World Glimpse of Temple Mount - Jewish World - Israel News - Arutz Sheva Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah --------------------------------- Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/0a68e4fb/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 4 13:41:04 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 14:41:04 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] re: Paul's response about Paul/Saul Message-ID: <8CA357D03383866-49C-9D3@FWM-D31.sysops.aol.com> Hi Paul - You wrote: We cannot forget to pray for our fellow Israelite brothers and sisters, for they too have an inheritance, they are blinded. ?Which Israelite brothers and sisters are you referring to, and how are they blinded?? And from what? ? I'm confused... ?????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/de32eba9/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Feb 4 14:03:14 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:03:14 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunders... Message-ID: Excellent thoughts and comments Paul. You have said it well, we must sow the seeds and pull as many Israelites out of the doctrines of demons as G-D shall chose - and back to the everlasting Torah, as our friend Hanoch blesses us with the pearls he posts most every morning. Shalom Clyde **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/bc790a34/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Paul-Eugene Miller Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunderstood Sha'ul? Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 09:11:31 -0800 (PST) Size: 11673 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/bc790a34/attachment.mht From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 4 14:05:33 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 15:05:33 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Virtual tour of the Temple Mount In-Reply-To: <158960.25656.qm@web37503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA35806F0721A5-49C-BB7@FWM-D31.sysops.aol.com> Glad you liked it Paul...I will write about my impressions having ascended the Har HaBayit (Temple Mount) three times in the last 10 years, or so.?There is SO much to say about it....? Best regards, ????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah -----Original Message----- From: Paul-Eugene Miller To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Virtual tour of the Temple Mount Thanks Hannoch...I didn't get time to vieww all of it, but it makes me homesick, and I've never been there! YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), ? ??? For those of you who have never had the privilege to have been up to the Har HaBayit (Temple Mount), this is a MUST see.? I will write about my experiences having gone up (to those areas permitted by Jewish law, and after having immersed in a Mikvah - ritual bath) there, to have been SO CLOSE to the holiest of holies....so near, yet SO far....Please - check this out - Click here: Free Virtual Tour Offers Entire World Glimpse of Temple Mount - Jewish World - Israel News - Arutz Sheva ? ??? ??? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judahthe Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/e09eac60/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Feb 4 14:20:41 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:20:41 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristianity misunderstood Sha'ul? Message-ID: <00a401c8676b$6c35b5c0$0200a8c0@marvin> I agree with the comments thus far on trying to understand Paul in the Christian N.T. writings. I know this has some length to it but trying to lay some ground work for my current understand of Paul. My opinion, which is always changing as we study and learn. We know form a reading of the gospels that Jesus taught and kept the law. Although, he did seem to be at odds with the leaders of his day with regards to the interpretation of parts of it. He claimed the religious leaders were nullifying the law through their traditions. But, we must remember that all tradition is not bad. There is always that tension between what the written Word(Torah/Tanack) says and how do we "walk" out that precept in our everyday life. John 1:17 says "the law was given by Moses", but we know from the text that there were rules (law) that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob "heard" and lived by. In John 7:14-24, we see another difference as to the interpretation and application of the Law of Moses. >From Josephus, we know of five major sects: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essences', Zealots and Sicarii. Josephus defines these first three groups as Philosophical or religious. The last two seem to be the nationalist and criminal as we saw from the work did by Clyde and Gary on Daniel and the Tomb of David. Josephus goes on to say: What I would now explain is this, that the Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances by succession from their fathers, which are not written in the laws of Moses; and for that reason it is that the Sadducees reject them, and say that we are to esteem those observances to be obligatory which are in the written word, but are not to observe what are derived from the tradition of our forefathers (AJ 13.297f) >From my study I see that the philosophical sects among the Jews in the second temple era are made up of followers of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essences', the Zealots and Sicarii. Although, Josephus described the later two groups as political and criminal factions or extreme nationalists, we see where their religious beliefs were inseparable from their political convictions. The Pharisees and Sadducees seem to be the ones involved in religious and political life. The Essences seem to be devoted to a higher spiritual standard and then the nationalists and political groups. As far as I know we have not been able to place Jesus completely within any of the different sects of his day The Sadducees are mostly in contrast to the Pharisees. The Sadducees are those who reject the observances not written in the Law of Moses. Now, the followers of Jesus constituted a Jewish sect in the early years but they separated themselves to such an extent from Judaism of their day, that now as we know in our own search, the Jewish roots of Christianity are almost not recognizable. We also have the Karaite's whom some believe came form the Sadducees. Although, no conclusive historical evidence seems to exists to establish this point one way or the other. I believe the one thing that binds all religious Jews, regardless of their affiliations, philosophical religious viewpoints or anything else, their belief in /and relationship to the Torah as a living and legitimate guide for Jewish life and wisdom. Therefore, any sect or group or person that fundamentally rejects the Torah as its basic foundation is then excluded from the greater family of Israel and Judaism. Exactly were we fine the Christian church in the 3rd through 21 century? As I read the Gospels and into the book of Acts, I see Jews who are keeping the law, the feasts, the Sabbaths and going to the temple just as Jesus did. Their opposition with the ruling religious parties seemed to be over the messianic claims that were being made about Jesus and through Jesus the resurrection of the dead. Acts.4:1.2. Not, about the place of the Law of Moses. Even, in the discourse of Stephen in Acts.7 his statement that got him killed was that his listeners who received the "law of Moses" did not keep it,v53. Peter's problem in acts 10, had to do with fellowship with gentiles. Peter's vision told him to "sacrifice and eat". Something he said he had never done. After the vision he goes to Cornelius who is stated to be a "God Fearer" who is having his own visions. Peter is relieved, that he doesn't have to eat unclean meat, v.28. Again, a problem with interpretation and application of Torah principles, in my opinion. Some sects of Christianity understand alcohol the same way. Stay away from it. In all its forms, PERIOD. What would have happened if this same logic was applied to women? Some sects of the 2sd temple did and they have ceased to exist. Acts 15, as I see it, the problem is Gentiles who are coming into the group with a belief or faith in Jesus as the Messiah and the problem that arises as to their keeping of the Law of Moses. Specifically, the issue of the Circumcision. But, remember the Circumcision was not given by Moses. It came from Abraham and then was reinforced by the Law of Moses. In v.5. We see the adding of the two together. Then we come to James(brother of Jesus)as the head of the Jerusalem council he decrees the(Noah code) as the basic requirement for these gentiles. History shows us that this early movement was Hebrew and Jewish to the core in their understanding and practice until the siege of Jerusalem, in 67-74 c.e. Some would argue that Paul stopped keeping the law after his conversion experience but we see in Acts 16:1-, that Paul not only kept and passed along the Jerusalem Council degrees, he also took Timothy who was the son of a Jewish woman and circumcised him. Paul kept the law. Something Timothy's parents should have done when he was eight days old. In Acts 21:17- we see Paul going back to the Jerusalem council to report what God is doing among the Gentiles. Also, "many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: v:20. A question you can ask a Jewish person who says they believe in Jesus as Messiah. If you believe in Jesus as Messiah and you do not become more zealous for the law, then what is your problem? The charged was laid against Paul that he was teaching Jews amongst the Gentiles to forsake the Law of Moses and to not circumcise their children.v.21. The council then instructed Paul to take four men follow the law, purify yourself, shave your heads and keep the vow of a Nazarite, to put and end to the rumors that you have stopped keeping the law. Some interpret his that Paul compromised his own integrity and values to go along and "get along". I don't see this in Paul's character. Bible interpreters for years have noticed a difference between the strict Jewish view of the law and the Hellenistic view, which seems in my opinion to be what Paul is combating, along with the different view points in the different sects of the day as they blend or come in contact with Paul's own view and interpretation of the law. Regardless of the hard sayings of Paul, he seems to place the Law on a high footing. In Romans he makes it personal, it has a binding authority and it is Holy. Paul does not seem to draw a distinctive difference between the ceremonial and the moral law, but views them as a unity and in Rom.3:10-21 we see Paul referring to the Torah as Law and also the Psalms and Prophets as law. In Paul's mind they are one complete unity. Which I believe would fit into normative Jewish thinking. Paul seems to be contradictory as you read his writings and if one is not careful we will polarize his teaching into a camp that supports and affirms the law or into a camp that negates and shows the law to be a thing of the past. In my study I see where Paul has placed the giving of the Abrahamic Promise along side the giving of the law. Historically, the promise came before the giving of the law but not in opposition or against the law. Paul places Faith along side works, this is always interpreted as the two being polar opposites However, I see that the more you become immersed into torah, the greater your faith becomes which has a direct bearing on your works if you submit your desires to the desires of the father. I think the Gentile Christians have largely misunderstood the law and its application to each of us and the position God has called us to. I agree that the principle players in the N.T. writings believed they were in the last days before the kingdom was to be setup here on the earth and that with the kingdom would come a shift or change. I personally think those men did not fully understand because as we, the fulfillment lay in the future. They were looking for it and then after the temple was destroyed and gentiles over took they lost touch with their Hebrew roots. At this time a conclusion is hard to reach on how to understand Paul, but if we can find the key to his position and then look out from there to each group he address' in each of his writings I believe it will help us know what the other side of the "phone conversation" is/was. Shalom, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/5f389af2/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Feb 4 14:19:06 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:19:06 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] re: Paul's response about Paul/Saul Message-ID: Hanoch: I cannot speak for Re Paul's response about Paul, but speaking for myself it is the Ten tribes that have been fed the blasphemous Trinitarian dogma, the pagan myth of a virgin birth, and the abolishment of the Torah. That is only part of the blindness I have had to wade out of. Take care my friend Clyde. **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/cbe8b67b/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] re: Paul's response about Paul/Saul Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 14:41:04 -0500 Size: 4756 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/cbe8b67b/attachment.mht From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Mon Feb 4 14:36:05 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:36:05 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? In-Reply-To: <020420080140.11972.47A66D0D0007440A00002EC422230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <020420080140.11972.47A66D0D0007440A00002EC422230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: I cannot understand why G-d would demand that Gentiles live Torah as his chosen people would. They were separated from the Nations so they would be special unto him. I believe we as Gentiles should live Torah ,,, as it pertains to us. Such as the 7 Laws of Noah. If every gentile lived as Jews, then they would NOT be special unto him. Or as some Rabbis say, You should not steal what was written to them???? The way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and heirs, according to the promise. Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Clyde, From my study of Sha'uls writtings, and especially Romans, it appears that Sha'ul indicates that Torah-observance is an unattainble goal for sin-born mortals, and therefore puts us in need of a saviour, one who kept Torah completely, and was therefore worthy to lay down his life in our place. My contention with how Sha'ul is taught is that this obviates much of what TaNaKH teaches... and what Yeshua taught as well. Either we are to obey the Torah, or we are not. Most Christian teachers villify any who even attempt to walk in the commandments and the statutes that Torah instructs. They say all that was 'done away with'. How can this apparent dichotomy be reconciled? Do I trust letters written by a fellow disciple, or the G-D breathed Torah lovingly preserved and handed down by the fathers? Just my brief thoughts, Glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/d2ff06ed/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 4 15:13:43 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:13:43 +0000 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunders... Message-ID: <020420082113.10014.47A780070004B0AB0000271E22230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Errata: conclusions not coclusions, grossly not grossley, bible (Torah and Gospels) not Tanach Sorry. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from carlson_john at bellsouth.net: -------------- > I agree. There is no doubt in my mind that Paul considered Torah observance of > paramount importance, but that is what makes letters like Galations so > troubling. I need to give this new (for me) perspective a fair audience before > I can honestly draw further coclusions. Paul makes statements that are either > at odds with Torah observance or grossley misunderstood otherwise there would be > no question to discuss. Either way the fact that there is so much controversy > around his writings indicates that they cannot be understood without deeper > knowledge of their context which, in my opinion, sets them apart from the rest > of the Tanach. Well actually that goes for all of the letters but in particular > Paul. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: CBrown4465 at aol.com > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:25:25 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty > misunders... > > > John > > The Jerusalem apostles were under the same early notion that the kingdom would > be established in their generation. However, whether the kingdom would have been > set up in the first generation or two-thousand years later would make no > difference in my opinion, the Torah must be kept. I think with the 7 positive > Torah obedience confirmation of Torah in Romans, I think equal confirmation of > Paul in any attempt to nullify the Torah must be presented. So far I cannot find > even one hint that Paul ever allowed even the thought of abolishing the Torah to > enter his thought. What do you think? > > Clyde > > > > > ---------------- > Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. > > 548> _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/cd3edb27/attachment.html From amydomin at aol.com Mon Feb 4 15:20:48 2008 From: amydomin at aol.com (amydomin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:20:48 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "The Myths of Peace and the Reality of our Dead Boys" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA358AF26FAFCB-22C-20B4@webmail-nc02.sysops.aol.com> This is one event that I would like to forget, but we must not forget. And we should all pray today for those that were injured in the suicide bombing in Dimona today. Doesn't sound like peace is happening to me.... Amy ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/e83a156c/attachment.html From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 15:26:21 2008 From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:26:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Message-ID: <931448.2158.qm@web44905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hey Dick L. Was it a demand by YHVH that the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt to obey Him or was it a choice? Those that came out of Egypt were not all Hebrew and YHVH gave the Torah to them as well. That's if I remember correctly. Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: Dick L To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, February 4, 2008 2:36:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? I cannot understand why G-d would demand that Gentiles live Torah as his chosen people would. They were separated from the Nations so they would be special unto him. I believe we as Gentiles should live Torah ,,, as it pertains to us. Such as the 7 Laws of Noah. If every gentile lived as Jews, then they would NOT be special unto him. Or as some Rabbis say, You should not steal what was written to them???? The way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and heirs, according to the promise. Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Clyde, From my study of Sha'uls writtings, and especially Romans, it appears that Sha'ul indicates that Torah-observance is an unattainble goal for sin-born mortals, and therefore puts us in need of a saviour, one who kept Torah completely, and was therefore worthy to lay down his life in our place. My contention with how Sha'ul is taught is that this obviates much of what TaNaKH teaches... and what Yeshua taught as well. Either we are to obey the Torah, or we are not. Most Christian teachers villify any who even attempt to walk in the commandments and the statutes that Torah instructs. They say all that was 'done away with'. How can this apparent dichotomy be reconciled? Do I trust letters written by a fellow disciple, or the G-D breathed Torah lovingly preserved and handed down by the fathers? Just my brief thoughts, Glenn _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/4d7d2083/attachment.html From amydomin at aol.com Mon Feb 4 15:50:31 2008 From: amydomin at aol.com (amydomin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:50:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? In-Reply-To: <931448.2158.qm@web44905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <931448.2158.qm@web44905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA358F193B9B80-EB0-1783@webmail-nf15.sim.aol.com> It was written to the Hebrews, not just Jews. So, then you have to ask yourself, are you Gentile? Which I take that to mean you are pagan and you are against the ways of HaShem. That is why as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? All of this talk about one law for the Jew and one law for the Gentile is fine, but are you a Gentile? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right? What did Yeshua say about all of this? Or was it just Paul saying what should be done with the Gentiles? I thought Yeshua did not concern himself with the Gentiles...only the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"... Lots of questions, Amy -----Original Message----- From: Rick Gozhanskij To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Hey Dick L.?? Was it a demand by YHVH that the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt to obey Him or was it a choice?? Those that came out of Egypt were not all Hebrew and YHVH gave the Torah to them as well.?? That's if I remember correctly. Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: Dick L To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, February 4, 2008 2:36:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? I cannot understand why G-d would demand that Gentiles live Torah as his chosen people would. They were separated from the Nations so they would be special unto him. I believe we as Gentiles should live Torah ,,, as it pertains to us. Such as the 7 Laws of Noah. If every?gentile? lived as Jews, then they would NOT be special? unto him. Or as some Rabbis say, You should not? steal what was written to them???? The way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and heirs, according to the promise.? Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Clyde, ? >From my study of Sha'uls writtings, and especially Romans, it appears that Sha'ul indicates that?Torah-observance is an unattainble goal for sin-born mortals, and therefore puts us in need of a saviour, one who kept Torah completely, and was therefore worthy to lay down his life in our place. My contention with how Sha'ul is taught is that this obviates much of what TaNaKH teaches... and what Yeshua taught as well. ? Either we are to obey the Torah, or we are not. Most Christian teachers villify any who even attempt to walk in the commandments and the statutes that Torah instructs. They say all that was 'done away with'. How can this apparent dichotomy be reconciled? Do I trust letters written by a fellow disciple, or the G-D breathed Torah lovingly preserved and handed down by the fathers? ? Just my brief thoughts, ? Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/6e702364/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Feb 4 16:14:43 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:14:43 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristianity misunders... Message-ID: Marvin: In a short 4 pages you have given an overview analysis that I find compelling. It is clear you have done your homework, biblically, and historically through a great many sources. I have printed out the post for my files. I completely agree with the entire paper, and in the last paragraph I think you have set the right course for further study. We are nearly two-thousand years removed for the late second temple period. I hope you will share more of your thoughts. Shalom Clyde : **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/41bedcbd/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "mhyde" Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristianity misunderstood Sha'ul? Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:20:41 -0500 Size: 30388 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/41bedcbd/attachment.mht From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 4 22:20:54 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 23:20:54 EST Subject: [Dialogue] re: Paul's response about Paul/Saul Message-ID: Hi Clyde, Thanks for the clarification - I appreciate it. Take care! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/c200c043/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Feb 4 22:26:44 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 23:26:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunderstood Sha'ul? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75882232-02A3-4A71-B4A0-83A584180B5F@earthlink.net> These are interesting but need to be also read in context, and also in the light of what Paul writes in Galatians, Romans 14, etc. Need I quote? I also highly recommend the masterful treatment of Alan Segal, Paul the Convert. James On Feb 3, 2008, at 4:07 PM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > Shalom: > > Well, can we discus the issues, respect each others views, present > our views as our opinions, and follow the instruction that Ross has > set for the dialogue? This is a test case and each can inform me > if I have passed the Ross test? .My own opinion is that Christianity > has misunderstood Sha'ul also called Paulus. What do we make of the > statements below? > > "...For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in > God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared > righteous." (Rom1:13) > : > ??What advantage then has the Jews? Or what profit is there of > circumcision? Much in every way, chiefly because that unto them > were committed the oracles [instruction] of God.? (Rom 3:1-2) > > "...Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcision > by faith and the uncircumcision through the same faith; Do we then > abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the > Torah." (Rom 3:30-31) > > "...What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. No, I had > not known sin, except by the Torah; for I had not known lust, except > the Torah had said; Thous shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7) > . > ??Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, > and good? (Rom 7:12 > > ??For we know that the Torah is spiritual but I am carnal sold under > sin.? (Rom 7:14 > > ??For I delight in the Torah of God after the inward man. (Rom 7:22) > > Shalom > > Clyde > > > > > Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL > Music. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/c3c7b572/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Feb 4 22:35:51 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 23:35:51 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunders... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70790CA5-A711-4544-9B9C-FA34A9B9726E@earthlink.net> Galatians 3-4 James On Feb 3, 2008, at 10:25 PM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > John > > The Jerusalem apostles were under the same early notion that the > kingdom would be established in their generation. However, whether > the kingdom would have been set up in the first generation or two- > thousand years later would make no difference in my opinion, the > Torah must be kept. I think with the 7 positive Torah obedience > confirmation of Torah in Romans, I think equal confirmation of Paul > in any attempt to nullify the Torah must be presented. So far I > cannot find even one hint that Paul ever allowed even the thought of > abolishing the Torah to enter his thought. What do you think? > > Clyde > > > > Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL > Music. > > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Date: February 3, 2008 9:07:38 PM EST > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has > Christianty misunderstood Sha'ul? > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Shalom Clyde, > > As you know I currently share your opinion regarding Paul's > writings, that Christianity has misunderstood him. However, I have > recently been made aware of a possiblity that Paul was working under > a misconception of his own, that the arrival of the Kingdom was > right around the corner, not thousands of years in the future. I > won't know how this new information might change my opinion as I am > re-reading Pauls writings over again with this new idea in mind, > I'll let ya know when I'm done. Also, Like Glenn I have been > reconsidering my opinion on the relationship of Paul's writings to > the Torah and the Gospels. His writings certainly have a place in > the instructional scheme (taken in context) but I am beginning to > doubt that they carry the weight that the Christian church has > assigned to them. > > Still studying. > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from CBrown4465 at aol.com: > -------------- > > Shalom: > > Well, can we discus the issues, respect each others views, present > our views as our opinions, and follow the instruction that Ross has > set for the dialogue? This is a test case and each can inform me > if I have passed the Ross test? .My own opinion is that Christianity > has misunderstood Sha'ul also called Paulus. What do we make of the > statements below? > > "...For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in > God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared > righteous." (Rom1:13) > : > ??What advantage then has the Jews? Or what profit is there of > circumcision? Much in every way, chiefly because that unto them were > committed the oracles [instruction] of God.? (Rom 3:1-2) > > "...Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcision > by faith and the uncircumcision through the same faith; Do we then > abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the > Torah." (Rom 3:30-31) > > "...What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. No, I had > not known sin, except by the Torah; for I had not known lust, except > the Torah had said; Thous shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7) > . > ??Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, > and good? (Rom7:12 > > ??For we know that the Torah is spiritual but I am carnal sold under > sin.? (Rom7:14 > > ??For I delight in the Torah of God after the inward man. (Rom7:22) > > Shalom > > Clyde > > > > > Who's never won?Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL > Music. > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080204/47e7c042/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Tue Feb 5 03:35:48 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 03:35:48 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Virtual tour of the Temple Mount References: Message-ID: <038d01c867da$7e347e40$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Thank you, Hanoch for this rare tour of the Temple Mount. I too have had the privilege of being on Har Habayit several times since 1981. Around 1997 three of us walked around the outside edges just as was done in this virtual tour but with one difference.....since I was then a very "on-fire" Christian I found myself involved in an act of which I was unaware until it was happening. One of the women had a not-so-small bottle of olive oil which she held down unobtrusively pouring out its contents very slowly as we walked the perimeter of the mount praying quietly to ourselves. We too were watched but never stopped, only waved back as we tried to get closer to the southern wall on the east side of the Al Aksa (sp) mosque. Oh, and as we approached the entrance gate/ramp to the right of the Kotel she poured a bit of the oil onto our feet, a christian mikvah of sorts I suppose. At that time I had never even heard of a mikvah. In 1981 I was on a tour which took us inside of the Dome of the Rock Mosque. I was shocked to find the "rock" which was quite beautiful, soft pink in color to be HUGE in size about 15' to 18' if not larger, as I recall but Hanock you might remember better than I its actual size and color. I had always imagined it to be more like 5' to 6' in diameter. Hanoch, were there other colors than pink? Seems like it looked like granite. ( Please help me here.) If you are into Byzantine Architecture the setting was quite beautiful. This tour really made me home-sick also. May we all one day meet together in the most holy place! "This year in Yerushaliim!"!!! Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:53 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A Virtual tour of the Temple Mount Shalom Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), For those of you who have never had the privilege to have been up to the Har HaBayit (Temple Mount), this is a MUST see. I will write about my experiences having gone up (to those areas permitted by Jewish law, and after having immersed in a Mikvah - ritual bath) there, to have been SO CLOSE to the holiest of holies....so near, yet SO far....Please - check this out - Click here: Free Virtual Tour Offers Entire World Glimpse of Temple Mount - Jewish World - Israel News - Arutz Sheva Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/710d883f/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Feb 5 06:10:36 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 07:10:36 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A Virtual tour of the Temple Mount Message-ID: Dear Leorah, What a lovely sharing of such an important memory - thank you. You asked about the inside of the Gold Dome - I have never been inside it, or near it - Jewish Law prohibits it, since we believe that the rock inside is the Even HaShetiyah - the foundation stone. And that is the spot where the Ark of the Covenant stood, within the inside of the Holy of Holies. But from pictures I've seen, it appears to have a pink hue to it. It also has some chips knocked off, where Crusaders took souvenirs... Thanks again for sharing!! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/f1dd459a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Feb 5 06:19:29 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 07:19:29 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A quote and a call for prayers Message-ID: Shalom Cheverim Yikarim from the Lekarev Report (please read below the quote, too) And you shall serve Hashem your G-d, and He will bless your bread, and your water; and I will take sickness away from your midst. There shall be none of your women who will miscarry, nor shall any of your males or females be infertile in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days. Exodus 23:25-26 Nationwide Alert Level Raised Rabbis Call for Day of Prayer The attention of the Israeli media and the people has been almost exclusively focused in the past few days on the Winograd Report and its long-term ramifications, but, thankfully, the religious leadership of Israel has not lost its focus on the most critical issues of our day: The pressing dangers to the Land of Israel and to the city of Jerusalem. At the initiative of Rabbi Simcah HaKohen, chief Rabbi of Rehovot, a large group of Rabbis signed on to a declaration for an International Day of prayer in synagogues and other sacred locations within Israel and around the world. Many Israelis will gather at Hevron's Machpelah Cave, the tomb of the Patriarchs, and at the Western Wall in Jerusalem at 3:30 PM today, Israeli time. Participants are encouraged to bring Shofars with them to the Western Wall. The Rabbis declaration calls for a day of crying out, prayer and protest in light of the "terrible decrees to destroy our holy land and the Holy City of Jerusalem." We are all called upon to arise as 'one person, with one heart' for an international day of prayer in synagogues, Torah study halls and holy sites - all of the various streams and groupings, joining together in unity and brotherhood, with G-d with us." Terrorists may have bombs and suicide belts, but forever let it be declared that there is no weapon against evil stronger than united prayer. Meanwhile, the national terror alert level has been raised throughout Israel in response to yesterday's suicide bombing May HaShem answer all of our prayers.... Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/1edda0b6/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Feb 5 06:49:03 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 07:49:03 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Article: "Failure as a tool for Growth" Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim vBoker Tov! I've pasted an article below that I thought the group would found interesting, because everyone struggles with "failure" at some point. And some of us even 'beat ourselves up about it,' too. I hope you find it helpful. Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Failure: A Tool of Growth 29 Shevat 5768, 05 February 08 02:39 by Rabbi Michoel Gourarie (IsraelNN.com) One of the things that we fear most is failure. The possibility of failing is terrifying to the point that we abandon many important activities to avoid failure. We are frightened of humiliation, disappointment, letting ourselves or others down and, worst of all, ruining our reputation. But the reality is that not everything we do ends in success. The Divine design of creation includes failure as part of human development and growth. With the proper perspective, failure is not so frightening, and can even become a catalyst for greater progress and improvement. Here are five ideas to consider: Definition of success In today's world, success is defined by outcome, as opposed to effort. If you have invested tremendous effort, but not achieved a visible, measurable dramatic outcome, then you are deemed a failure, not a success. The Jewish definition of success is very different. It is not defined by any outcome, but rather by effort, hard work and internal improvement and progress. Our tradition states clearly that reward for Torah study is not for those who cover the most material, but rather for those who apply themselves with sweat and toil. Not producing the end result does not always mean that we have failed in our mission. The solid attempt and the effort is, itself, our success. Failure does not make us bad people At the very foundation of every person there exists a Divine spark of infinite goodness and purity, which is totally independent of one's accomplishments and achievements. When we are unsuccessful in a particular project, our essential goodness still remains intact. Failure is learning opportunity I once heard that in the early days of IBM, there was a computer programmer who pushed the wrong button and cost the company a million dollars. When he was summoned to the board room, he was certain that his career had come to an end. In front of the top executives, he had to explain what had happened and what could have been done to avoid this mistake. When he finished, he was sent back to continue his work, his job intact. In response to his look of surprise one of the top executives commented: ?We just spent a million dollars training you, we can?t fire you now.? Failure is a unique opportunity to learn how to be stronger in the future. Failure does not negate previous achievement Someone who walks for an hour and slips over two kilometres from his destination is still closer to his goal than before. We cannot discount our accomplishments to date. Failure is only a temporary learning experience. We recover, get up and move on. Make it a catalyst for real growth Constant success and happiness can also result in limited growth. We become comfortable with ourselves and are unable to break out of our own little world, and go beyond our own limitations. Sometimes, failure can have the effect of breaking the shell of our comfort zone to allow us to take a giant leap into something new. We are forced to rethink our strategies and our goals. It becomes an amazing opportunity to change direction. A seed planted in the ground must disintegrate before it can become a blossoming tree. Sometimes, our routine must come to an abrupt end, giving us the opportunity to reach new heights. So, don?t be afraid of failing. If it happens, welcome it and use it to reach a new level of self-development. _http://www.israelnationalnews.com/_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/a0eab4cf/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Feb 5 08:50:39 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 09:50:39 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunders... Message-ID: Thanks James: Yes Galatians, the most difficult letter of all. I want first to say that even though James and I come down on different sides on Paul, in many ways I consider James my mentor - his book on RAF changed my life and I will forever be grateful. It has been five years now and being retired from the business world I began a full time exhaustive study on Paul, and if I found him rejecting the Torah, then I would reject Paul. I have to admit no letter has given me more trouble than the letter to the congregations in Galatia. To be fair I began with all of the positive statements of Paul regarding the Torah, and specifically the Sinai covenant. I listed 7 positive statements from the book Romans, and two sets of texts from Ist Co. More could be added they were just a sampling. In terms of "the works of the Torah," my question was,was Paul and James the brother of Yeshua referring to the same thing using the term works? James mentions Alan F.Se gal, which is only one of many more books I used in my research. Peter J, Tomson - Paul and the Jewish Law - Halakha in the letters of the Apostle Paul is another work worth reading. One other worth our attention is E. P. Sanders - Paul and Palestinian Judaism. For what it may be worth I will suggest that the issue in the letter to the congregations in Galatia was not a question of the grace of God through the faith of Yeshua. I think the issue brought forth was certain enactments of the Pharisees who sat in Moses seat. I will agree with Marvin here that the traditions of the Pharisees were not all bad, only those that broke the written Torah. As we enter the study of the letter I think the historical context of Sha'ul become very important. That Sha'ul was of the Pharisees I think is fairly well established. In Gal 1:13-14, Paul reminds the Galatians: "...For you have heard of my conduct in time past in the Jews [Pharisaical] religion how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God and wasted it, and profited in the Jews [Pharisaical] religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. " Now, before connecting the above texts with a second set in the letter, we might reflect upon certain issues that Yeshua had with certain Pharisees. We need not quote it, but Yeshua accused these certain Pharisees of breaking the commandments of God through their oral traditions. Since Paul states that his readers have already heard about his zeal for the traditions, why repeat in vs.13 -14, since they had already heard the story? Were those who were troubling the Galatians of the Pharisees who had joined themselves to the Nazarene movement? If so, it would make good sense for Paul to emphasis his former conduct if the same traditions that broke the commandments of God were being forced upon the Galatians. Now, with these thoughts in mind for our consideration lets look at another set of texts, and see if they might have a connection to Gal 1:13-14. "...But if while we seek to be justified by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore messiah the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." (Gal 2:17-18) Is it possible that what Paul destroyed was the very traditions he was so zealous to keep, the enactments of the Pharisees, some that actually broke the commandments of God? If so, then if the Galatians allowed themselves to be taken in by those attempting to put these traditions that actually broke the commandments of God on them, then they too would become transgressors. Is it possible that some of these enactments of the Pharisees were the very "works of the Law," that were added, works of the oral traditions, that Paul was fighting against? If so, then all of the positive statements that Paul makes regarding the Torah is holy, and the commamdment is holy, and just and good Rom 7:12, remains as his convictions even in this difficult letter to the Galatains. I will stop at this point and be open to any thoughts each may have on what is written thus far. I most certainly do not have all the answers, and so will take all the help each of you can give me. Clyde **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/8cb86c84/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunderstood Sha'ul? Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 23:26:44 -0500 Size: 11140 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/8cb86c84/attachment.mht From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 5 14:21:09 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 20:21:09 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunders... Message-ID: <020520082021.21788.47A8C5350004FC1F0000551C22218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Clyde, My reading of Romans gives me the impression that Paul holds up Torah as the 'Gold Standard' to which everyone should aspire, but should realize they will never achieve it. To me he implies it is too high, too far, too lofty for mere humans to ever hope to follow. As James (Tabor) indicates, in context, I see Paul's assertions as not confirming Torah-observance at all, but quite the contrary. He goes so far as to indicate that it is Torah that gives sin the ammunition to kill me (Romas 7:11). All this is in stark contrast to what all the fathers and prophets taught about Torah. "If you do this you shall live" is the theme. The obverse is not only implied, it is spelled out clearly. All inquity (lawlessness) will be punished by death. To me, the Torah offers life to those who chose it, and death comes, not by Torah, but by rejecting it. "To obey is better than sacrifice"... and "... if you do right, will you not be blessed?" Just a few of my thoughts, Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/11264d2b/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Feb 5 17:22:23 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 18:22:23 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunders... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004e01c8684d$f843e9f0$0200a8c0@marvin> Thanks Clyde for your kind comments. Quoting CB: I think the issue brought forth was certain enactments of the Pharisees who sat in Moses seat. I will agree with Marvin here that the traditions of the Pharisees were not all bad, only those that broke the written Torah. As we enter the study of the letter I think the historical context of Sha'ul become very important. That Sha'ul was of the Pharisees I think is fairly well established. In Gal 1:13-14, Paul reminds the Galatians: "...For you have heard of my conduct in time past in the Jews [Pharisaical] religion how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God and wasted it, and profited in the Jews [Pharisaical] religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. " Quoting CB: Is it possible that what Paul destroyed was the very traditions he was so zealous to keep, the enactments of the Pharisees, some that actually broke the commandments of God? If so, then if the Galatians allowed themselves to be taken in by those attempting to put these traditions that actually broke the commandments of God on them, then they too would become transgressors. Is it possible that some of these enactments of the Pharisees were the very "works of the Law," that were added, works of the oral traditions, that Paul was fighting against? If so, then all of the positive statements that Paul makes regarding the Torah is holy, and the commamdment is holy, and just and good Rom 7:12, I would agree with Clyde and go a step farther and say not only the traditions that broke a commandment, but also those that created a hardship or bound up the person in such a way to suck the spiritual life out of the orginial (word) given to Moses. Several example's are in the Gospel's dealing with Jesus and the Sabbath or the healing of a person on the Sabbath as opposed to "if your ox fell in a well, would you not get it out?'. Which life has more value to God and to us? The life / spirit of a person or animial? I would think the life, health and well being of a human, created in Gods image. I can understand how some have read Paul and came away with the ideal that he is a madman, lunatic, whatever the proper Psychological term that would fit, and I believe by the time you read through Romans and Galatians, there would be more then several. However, I understand that Marcion of the early 2 second Century did some "fixin" on the 10 letters of Paul. Due to his opposition to the Law, and his on understanding. In the passages below you have "law" used for times. The same word in Greek -nomos. I'm not a Greek scholar, nor the son of a Greek Scholar but I have to think Paul has two different concepts of law in mind. 1). The Law of Moses, and 2). The law / addition / traditions / interpretation added. I understand the need to understand how to keep a law(Halacha) how a law applies and to whom. But then you have the MinHagim, Takanot, Gezerot, and Ma'asim. Passage 1: Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: Rom 3:20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin. Passage 2: Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Or maybe as we read through Paul's writings we should be substituting one of about 5 or 6 concepts of law in the place of the one term - nomos that seems to be used as a blanket term to cover all concepts / ideal of law in Paul's mind? Marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:51 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunders... Thanks James: Yes Galatians, the most difficult letter of all. I want first to say that even though James and I come down on different sides on Paul, in many ways I consider James my mentor - his book on RAF changed my life and I will forever be grateful. It has been five years now and being retired from the business world I began a full time exhaustive study on Paul, and if I found him rejecting the Torah, then I would reject Paul. I have to admit no letter has given me more trouble than the letter to the congregations in Galatia. To be fair I began with all of the positive statements of Paul regarding the Torah, and specifically the Sinai covenant. I listed 7 positive statements from the book Romans, and two sets of texts from Ist Co. More could be added they were just a sampling. In terms of "the works of the Torah," my question was,was Paul and James the brother of Yeshua referring to the same thing using the term works? James mentions Alan F.Se gal, which is only one of many more books I used in my research. Peter J, Tomson - Paul and the Jewish Law - Halakha in the letters of the Apostle Paul is another work worth reading. One other worth our attention is E. P. Sanders - Paul and Palestinian Judaism. For what it may be worth I will suggest that the issue in the letter to the congregations in Galatia was not a question of the grace of God through the faith of Yeshua. I think the issue brought forth was certain enactments of the Pharisees who sat in Moses seat. I will agree with Marvin here that the traditions of the Pharisees were not all bad, only those that broke the written Torah. As we enter the study of the letter I think the historical context of Sha'ul become very important. That Sha'ul was of the Pharisees I think is fairly well established. In Gal 1:13-14, Paul reminds the Galatians: "...For you have heard of my conduct in time past in the Jews [Pharisaical] religion how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God and wasted it, and profited in the Jews [Pharisaical] religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. " Now, before connecting the above texts with a second set in the letter, we might reflect upon certain issues that Yeshua had with certain Pharisees. We need not quote it, but Yeshua accused these certain Pharisees of breaking the commandments of God through their oral traditions. Since Paul states that his readers have already heard about his zeal for the traditions, why repeat in vs.13 -14, since they had already heard the story? Were those who were troubling the Galatians of the Pharisees who had joined themselves to the Nazarene movement? If so, it would make good sense for Paul to emphasis his former conduct if the same traditions that broke the commandments of God were being forced upon the Galatians. Now, with these thoughts in mind for our consideration lets look at another set of texts, and see if they might have a connection to Gal 1:13-14. "...But if while we seek to be justified by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore messiah the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." (Gal 2:17-18) Is it possible that what Paul destroyed was the very traditions he was so zealous to keep, the enactments of the Pharisees, some that actually broke the commandments of God? If so, then if the Galatians allowed themselves to be taken in by those attempting to put these traditions that actually broke the commandments of God on them, then they too would become transgressors. Is it possible that some of these enactments of the Pharisees were the very "works of the Law," that were added, works of the oral traditions, that Paul was fighting against? If so, then all of the positive statements that Paul makes regarding the Torah is holy, and the commamdment is holy, and just and good Rom 7:12, remains as his convictions even in this difficult letter to the Galatains. I will stop at this point and be open to any thoughts each may have on what is written thus far. I most certainly do not have all the answers, and so will take all the help each of you can give me. Clyde _____ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/bf788eb4/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Tue Feb 5 18:43:00 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 19:43:00 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? In-Reply-To: <931448.2158.qm@web44905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <931448.2158.qm@web44905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well Rick: I do believe that the Torah was written for all of us, but not TO all of us. Each in there own perspective. Another thing that bothers me, concerning Saul, is that they think Saul is doing away with Torah. Of course not. Let me ask-- who is Sauls audience????? Jew or Gentile?? Gentile of course. He says he is an Apostle to the Gentiles. So, as I see it, he is saying that the Gentile does not come under the Torah as the Jew does. And that is where the problem is. But the Gentile does have a place through Jesus according to Saul??? As mentioned: The Torah was written for all of us, but not all to us. Could you tell me where you have this info Rick . About not all Hebrew????? Dick L We have an old saying: When in Rome do as the Romans do. I believe that is what Gentiles have done when living in the land among the Hebrew. I should look that up to say it right, but its been a long day. Will get back. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Gozhanskij To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Hey Dick L. Was it a demand by YHVH that the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt to obey Him or was it a choice? Those that came out of Egypt were not all Hebrew and YHVH gave the Torah to them as well. That's if I remember correctly. Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: Dick L To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, February 4, 2008 2:36:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? I cannot understand why G-d would demand that Gentiles live Torah as his chosen people would. They were separated from the Nations so they would be special unto him. I believe we as Gentiles should live Torah ,,, as it pertains to us. Such as the 7 Laws of Noah. If every gentile lived as Jews, then they would NOT be special unto him. Or as some Rabbis say, You should not steal what was written to them???? The way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and heirs, according to the promise. Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Clyde, From my study of Sha'uls writtings, and especially Romans, it appears that Sha'ul indicates that Torah-observance is an unattainble goal for sin-born mortals, and therefore puts us in need of a saviour, one who kept Torah completely, and was therefore worthy to lay down his life in our place. My contention with how Sha'ul is taught is that this obviates much of what TaNaKH teaches... and what Yeshua taught as well. Either we are to obey the Torah, or we are not. Most Christian teachers villify any who even attempt to walk in the commandments and the statutes that Torah instructs. They say all that was 'done away with'. How can this apparent dichotomy be reconciled? Do I trust letters written by a fellow disciple, or the G-D breathed Torah lovingly preserved and handed down by the fathers? Just my brief thoughts, Glenn _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/33ec2705/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Tue Feb 5 18:51:01 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 19:51:01 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? In-Reply-To: <8CA358F193B9B80-EB0-1783@webmail-nf15.sim.aol.com> References: <931448.2158.qm@web44905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CA358F193B9B80-EB0-1783@webmail-nf15.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <5793B7E46521482093BF0060D92778E8@DickLPC> I disagree with you most heatedly, [ if that's possible] Amy. Gentiles are only NON Jews. NOT Pagans. Many Gentiles turned to G-d from serving Idols, but that does not make them Jews. Many believed in the G-d of Israel but did not convert. Why do you think the 7 Laws of Noah where there????// Who do you think observed them before they became separated from the Nations????? Dick L Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? It was written to the Hebrews, not just Jews. So, then you have to ask yourself, are you Gentile? Which I take that to mean you are pagan and you are against the ways of HaShem. That is why as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? All of this talk about one law for the Jew and one law for the Gentile is fine, but are you a Gentile? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right? What did Yeshua say about all of this? Or was it just Paul saying what should be done with the Gentiles? I thought Yeshua did not concern himself with the Gentiles...only the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"... Lots of questions, Amy -----Original Message----- From: Rick Gozhanskij To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Hey Dick L. Was it a demand by YHVH that the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt to obey Him or was it a choice? Those that came out of Egypt were not all Hebrew and YHVH gave the Torah to them as well. That's if I remember correctly. Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: Dick L To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, February 4, 2008 2:36:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? I cannot understand why G-d would demand that Gentiles live Torah as his chosen people would. They were separated from the Nations so they would be special unto him. I believe we as Gentiles should live Torah ,,, as it pertains to us. Such as the 7 Laws of Noah. If every gentile lived as Jews, then they would NOT be special unto him. Or as some Rabbis say, You should not steal what was written to them???? The way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and heirs, according to the promise. Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Clyde, From my study of Sha'uls writtings, and especially Romans, it appears that Sha'ul indicates that Torah-observance is an unattainble goal for sin-born mortals, and therefore puts us in need of a saviour, one who kept Torah completely, and was therefore worthy to lay down his life in our place. My contention with how Sha'ul is taught is that this obviates much of what TaNaKH teaches... and what Yeshua taught as well. Either we are to obey the Torah, or we are not. Most Christian teachers villify any who even attempt to walk in the commandments and the statutes that Torah instructs. They say all that was 'done away with'. How can this apparent dichotomy be reconciled? Do I trust letters written by a fellow disciple, or the G-D breathed Torah lovingly preserved and handed down by the fathers? Just my brief thoughts, Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/7fd4af3e/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 5 18:53:31 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 00:53:31 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Message-ID: <020620080053.18524.47A9050B00098EFF0000485C22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> I believe this (and other references) are what Rick is referring to: And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. Exodus 12:38 Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/190e3a11/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Feb 5 20:53:15 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 21:53:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Storms in Ark. & Tenn Message-ID: <007901c8686b$6d20bab0$0200a8c0@marvin> God rules in the affairs of men. With the line of storms going through Arkansas and Tennessee do you think YHVH is trying to influence the election? :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/0794eeb4/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 5 22:10:18 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 04:10:18 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Storms in Ark. & Tenn Message-ID: <020620080410.1526.47A9332A00001003000005F622216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> we can certainly hope so! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/9a00e917/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Feb 5 22:13:01 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 23:13:01 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: Hi Dick - Okay, I'm the Jewish guy here who doesn't know much of the Christian Bible (NT), but I don't think you and Amy are talking about 'apples to apples' here. You are talking about Gentiles and Torah observance, and the Noahide laws. Amy wrote: That is why as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? All of this talk about one law for the Jew and one law for the Gentile is fine, but are you a Gentile? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right? Unless I'm totally misunderstanding Amy's point, she is referring to those of the 'Lost Tribes' - Ephraim. I truly believe, and I've already said it on this list, (MY PERSONAL OPINION and understanding), that if someone believes themselves to be from the Tribes, then they DO need to begin observing the Torah. There is no way (at this time...) to prove that someone is from the Tribes, but if their HEART is pulling them to Torah, Israel and the support of the Jewish people, then as far as I am concerned - they are from the Tribes, period! Now, I don't know if this means that you'll 'heatedly' disagree with me, too - but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree! :-) There is one thing that you wrote that I'm hoping you can explain to me Dick, because I want to be sure that I understand it. You wrote: The way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and heirs, according to the promise. Okay, so does this mean that if someone "believes" in Yeshua (and there are probably a dozen definitions of what THAT could mean), then he or she does not need to observe the Torah (beyond those 7 basic Noahide laws) at all??? That somehow they're "covered??" Although, as a Jew, I have to observe the Torah to achieve what non-Jews can get, simply by 'belief' in Yeshua?? Well, now you'll have to call ME, 'confused....' looking forward to hearing from you! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080205/b59ed88f/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 5 23:04:25 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 05:04:25 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020620080504.26402.47A93FD50006DB950000672222218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> So now we are getting to what I consider to be the underlying Paul "Question", did Paul misunderstand Yeshua or did Christianity misunderstand Paul? This is my conundrum. How in the world could the writings of a devout and learned Rabbi who met the resurrected Yeshua "face to face" (by his own account) whom he considered to be the Messiah. Yeshua, who never once claimed to be the "end" of the Torah but rather the fulfillment of it (by all accounts). Be at such odds with the Torah that Yeshua himself followed and lived. I have always been predisposed to try to reduce problems to their simplest level (I believe strongly in Occam's Razor) and I see only three possible answers here. 1. Paul was out to lunch (which I don't believe), 2. Christianity has misunderstood or deliberately distorted Paul's message or 3. Paul's letters (and all the others) don't belong in the canon at all. Yeshua never said "Believe in me and you will be saved". He said to follow him, to do as he did and he followed Torah and worshipped YHVH. How could Paul who knew him (resurrected) and knew his disciples possibly get that wrong? I don't have the answer yet but I'm looking for it. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hi Dick - Okay, I'm the Jewish guy here who doesn't know much of the Christian Bible (NT), but I don't think you and Amy are talking about 'apples to apples' here. You are talking about Gentiles and Torah observance, and the Noahide laws. Amy wrote: That is why as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? All of this talk about one law for the Jew and one law for the Gentile is fine, but are you a Gentile? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right? Unless I'm totally misunderstanding Amy's point, she is referring to those of the 'Lost Tribes' - Ephraim. I truly believe, and I've already said it on this list, (MY PERSONAL OPINION and understanding), that if someone believes themselves to be from the Tribes, then they DO need to begin observing the Torah. There is no way (at this time...) to prove that someone is from the Tribes, but if their HEART is pulling them to Torah, Israel and the support of the Jewish people, then as far as I am concerned - they are from the Tribes, period! Now, I don't know if this means that you'll 'heatedly' disagree with me, too - but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree! :-) There is one thing that you wrote that I'm hoping you can explain to me Dick, because I want to be sure that I understand it. You wrote: The way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and heirs, according to the promise. Okay, so does this mean that if someone "believes" in Yeshua (and there are probably a dozen definitions of what THAT could mean), then he or she does not need to observe the Torah (beyond those 7 basic Noahide laws) at all??? That somehow they're "covered??" Although, as a Jew, I have to observe the Torah to achieve what non-Jews can get, simply by 'belief' in Yeshua?? Well, now you'll have to call ME, 'confused....' looking forward to hearing from you! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/246f639b/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Feb 5 23:22:22 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 00:22:22 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Carrying permit Message-ID: <009601c86880$420a1a00$0200a8c0@marvin> Hanoch, I was reading and came across a question about carrying a gun on the Sabbath. When this question was asked many years ago, Rabbi Meir Kahane, may G-d avenge his death, had a no-nonsense answer. Jews in Crown Heights and Boro Park, New York asked certain American rabbis how they could prevent being mugged on Shabbat. They were told to carry ten-dollar bills to give to their muggers, so they wouldn't be beaten. Rabbi Kahane protested this response, saying, "Instead of considering the permissibility of carrying money on the Shabbat because of the need to save lives, let us consider the permissibility of carrying guns on Shabbat for the defense and welfare of our Jewish communities."[4] ------------------------------------------------------------------ 4. "Jewish Press," October 17, 1975, article, "A Jew Dies in Brooklyn." Sounds like my kind of Rabbi. Shalom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/4f9cb3da/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 5 23:33:00 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 05:33:00 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Message-ID: <020620080533.2347.47A94689000F1C180000092B22218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Just a point of clarification here (we have had some discussion on this awhile ago). Historically and semantically the terms "pagan" and "gentile" are not equivalent, at least in the research I have done. The term pagan comes from a latin root which translates to "country dweller" and has come to mean those people who dwelt in the rural areas that still clung to the ancient nature idolatry (worshipped natural things as gods; sun, moon, trees, etc.). Gentile on the other hand comes from a latin root that translates to "clans or tribes" and is seen as the equivalent of the Hebrew "Goyim" which translates to "nations". So just because a person is a gentile does not necessarily mean they are a pagan. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from amydomin at aol.com: -------------- It was written to the Hebrews, not just Jews. So, then you have to ask yourself, are you Gentile? Which I take that to mean you are pagan and you are against the ways of HaShem. That is why as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? All of this talk about one law for the Jew and one law for the Gentile is fine, but are you a Gentile? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right? What did Yeshua say about all of this? Or was it just Paul saying what should be done with the Gentiles? I thought Yeshua did not concern himself with the Gentiles...only the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"... Lots of questions, Amy -----Original Message----- From: Rick Gozhanskij To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Hey Dick L. Was it a demand by YHVH that the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt to obey Him or was it a choice? Those that came out of Egypt were not all Hebrew and YHVH gave the Torah to them as well. That's if I remember correctly. Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: Dick L To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, February 4, 2008 2:36:05 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? I cannot understand why G-d would demand that Gentiles live Torah as his chosen people would. They were separated from the Nations so they would be special unto him. I believe we as Gentiles should live Torah ,,, as it pertains to us. Such as the 7 Laws of Noah. If every gentile lived as Jews, then they would NOT be special unto him. Or as some Rabbis say, You should not steal what was written to them???? The way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and heirs, according to the promise. Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Clyde, >From my study of Sha'uls writtings, and especially Romans, it appears that Sha'ul indicates that Torah-observance is an unattainble goal for sin-born mortals, and therefore puts us in need of a saviour, one who kept Torah completely, and was therefore worthy to lay down his life in our place. My contention with how Sha'ul is taught is that this obviates much of what TaNaKH teaches... and what Yeshua taught as well. Either we are to obey the Torah, or we are not. Most Christian teachers villify any who even attempt to walk in the commandments and the statutes that Torah instructs. They say all that was 'done away with'. How can this apparent dichotomy be reconciled? Do I trust letters written by a fellow disciple, or the G-D breathed Torah lovingly preserved and handed down by the fathers? Just my brief thoughts, Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/061876c3/attachment.html From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 05:53:31 2008 From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 03:53:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <569769.15900.qm@web44916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hey John, You wrote: How in the world could the writings of a devout and learned Rabbi who met the resurrected Yeshua "face to face" (by his own account) whom he considered to be the Messiah. It is reported in the N.T. that Paul heard a voice and saw light but no face to face encounter. Did I miss something? Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "carlson_john at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2008 11:04:25 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstoo... So now we are getting to what I consider to be the underlying Paul "Question", did Paul misunderstand Yeshua or did Christianity misunderstand Paul? This is my conundrum. How in the world could the writings of a devout and learned Rabbi who met the resurrected Yeshua "face to face" (by his own account) whom he considered to be the Messiah. Yeshua, who never once claimed to be the "end" of the Torah but rather the fulfillment of it (by all accounts). Be at such odds with the Torah that Yeshua himself followed and lived. I have always been predisposed to try to reduce problems to their simplest level (I believe strongly in Occam's Razor) and I see only three possible answers here. 1. Paul was out to lunch (which I don't believe), 2. Christianity has misunderstood or deliberately distorted Paul's message or 3. Paul's letters (and all the others) don't belong in the canon at all. Yeshua never said "Believe in me and you will be saved". He said to follow him, to do as he did and he followed Torah and worshipped YHVH. How could Paul who knew him (resurrected) and knew his disciples possibly get that wrong? I don't have the answer yet but I'm looking for it. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hi Dick - Okay, I'm the Jewish guy here who doesn't know much of the Christian Bible (NT), but I don't think you and Amy are talking about 'apples to apples' here. You are talking about Gentiles and Torah observance, and the Noahide laws. Amy wrote: That is why as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? All of this talk about one law for the Jew and one law for the Gentile is fine, but are you a Gentile? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right? Unless I'm totally misunderstanding Amy's point, she is referring to those of the 'Lost Tribes' - Ephraim. I truly believe, and I've already said it on this list, (MY PERSONAL OPINION and understanding), that if someone believes themselves to be from the Tribes, then they DO need to begin observing the Torah. There is no way (at this time...) to prove that someone is from the Tribes, but if their HEART is pulling them to Torah, Israel and the support of the Jewish people, then as far as I am concerned - they are from the Tribes, period! Now, I don't know if this means that you'll 'heatedly' disagree with me, too - but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree! :-) There is one thing that you wrote that I'm hoping you can explain to me Dick, because I want to be sure that I understand it. You wrote: The way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and heirs, according to the promise. Okay, so does this mean that if someone "believes" in Yeshua (and there are probably a dozen definitions of what THAT could mean), then he or she does not need to observe the Torah (beyond those 7 basic Noahide laws) at all??? That somehow they're "covered??" Although, as a Jew, I have to observe the Torah to achieve what non-Jews can get, simply by 'belief' in Yeshua?? Well, now you'll have to call ME, 'confused....' looking forward to hearing from you! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/ff6cbd5a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 6 05:58:43 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 06:58:43 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Carrying permit Message-ID: Yes, I remember this! Thank you for posting it...yes, a Jewish man was killed in Crown Heights, by a mugger, because he didn't have any money with him, since it was Shabbat. The Galut-mentality (Exile-Mentality) Rabbis who responded to this, were actually considering advocating carrying "mugger money" on Shabbat!! And yes, Rav Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood) DID write a column questioning WHY instead, these same Rabbis didn't, instead, advocate carrying a gun! I just received a notice yesterday (yeah, there are NO coincidences in this world any more, for me, anyway...) that Rav Kahane's widow had just come out with volume one (see below) of what will be two very, very important books. Thank you for bringing this up....wow....1975....now, THAT was MY year! LOL (but only half kidding). Please see below...and yeah, he was SOME Rabbi....definitely the Rabbi that would have brought the final Redemption.....but we didn't merit it then....clearly... Would it be okay with you if I posted your note on another list? See book infor below... With Love of Israel, (as Rav Kahane signed his letters), Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _Fresh off the press: RABBI MEIR KAHANE: His Life and Thought (Volume One: 1932-1975) by Libby Kahane_ (http://www.hameir.org/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,14/category_id,2/manufacturer_id,0/optio n,com_virtuemart/Itemid,1/) >From the back cover: (http://www.hameir.org/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,14/category_id,2/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid, 1/) Rabbi Meir Kahane was born in New York City in 1932. He studied at the Mir Yeshiva in Brooklyn, receiving rabbinic ordination in 1956. That same year, he completed his law studies at New York Law School, and he subsequently received a master's degree in international law from New York University. After serving as a congregational rabbi, he founded the Jewish Defense League in 1968 in order to combat the rise in antisemitism. Concerned about the alienation and assimilation of Jewish youth, Rabbi Kahane spent two decades touring American college campuses, exhorting Jewish students to learn about Judaism, make aliya to Israel and stand up proudly as Jews. In 1970, he spearheaded a campaign of Jewish activism that led to the emigration of tens of thousands of oppressed Jews from the Soviet Union. He entered the political arena in Israel when he made aliya in 1971 and was a member of the Israeli Knesset from 1984 to 1988. He wrote several best-selling books, including Never Again!, Why Be Jewish? and The Story of the Jewish Defense League. His widely-read weekly columns appeared in The Jewish Press from 1961 to 1990. About the Author: Libby Kahane was married to Rabbi Meir Kahane from 1956 until his untimely death in 1990. Together with their four children, they moved to Israel in 1971, where Libby was employed as a reference librarian at the National Library in Jerusalem for twenty-seven years. Her research experience combines with her first-hand knowledge of events to present a comprehensive survey of Rabbi Kahane's ideology and political strategy, beginning with the childhood experiences that shaped him. She is a proud grandmother and great-grandmother. Quotes from Rabbi Meir Kahane excerpted from book: "When the chips are down, you know who's going to fight for the Jew? Only the Jew. And it's about time we understood this." (1971) "If all anti-Semitism could be made, by magic, to disappear, the American Jew would still face a problem of survival. The disease of assimilation and alienation of Jewish youth from its heritage and people is often spoken about, but its full gravity and danger are not comprehended by most of us. We face the problem of young Jews by the hundreds whose lack of Jewish identity and pride and whose Jewish rootlessness combine to drive them into foreign fields and hostile ideologies.... At the same time, in Israel, the ironic growth of a similar Jewish identity crisis has arisen to plague the state with young Jews who identify with the state but not the Jewish people and whose alienation from Jewish heritage and tradition has now been joined by weakening of ties with their fellow Jews in exile." (1972) "Jewish survival and redemption are proof eternal and ultimate that the world is not governed by logic, by sanity or by man. It is controlled and decreed by G-d." (1975) "The Jew who makes his body bend to his will is a man who has no chains on his arms. The Jew who hears the cry of fellow Jews and casts off from himself the vanities and nonsense of money and sterile status ... and leaps into the waters of duty ? this is a man who has come out of Egypt." (1975) Praise for Rabbi Meir Kahane: His Life and Thought (Volume One: 1932-1975): "This is an extraordinary tale of a man with a vision and a mission, whose life's journey was passionately directed to promoting Torah, Jewish pride and power, and the Zionist dream. Rabbi Meir Kahane, teacher, writer, and activist, is portrayed in exceptional detail and vividness, a kind of day-to-day serial drama. His boundless dedication to the Jewish people, skillfully animated and painstakingly documented in this comprehensive biography, can serve as an inspiration for Jewish youth today, as he did in his lifetime. A major figure in modern Jewish history, Meir Kahane can now be judiciously assessed and appreciated through this new and gripping volume." ?Dr. Mordechai Nisan, author of Toward a New Israel: The Jewish State and the Arab Question, Lectures on the Middle East. "Your biography is well-written and meticulously researched. (Your years of work as a librarian, which you discuss in your manuscript, clearly came in handy.) The combination of memoir and biography works well, and the narrative is structured around a combination of interviews and careful archival research that largely lets your late husband speak for himself, with only limited editorializing on your part, which was a very wise decision... A work of scholarship that attempts to contextualize his actions both personally and historically, and let readers draw their own conclusion.? You try to show the person, the husband and father, behind his bitterly controversial political persona. It will be a major addition to our knowledge of a very turbulent period in Jewish history." ?Dr. Peter Eisenstadt, editor in chief, Encyclopedia of New York State and Encyclopedia of New York City **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/2b10362e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 6 06:06:46 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 07:06:46 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Boker v'Chodesh Tov! Message-ID: Shalom v'Chodesh Tov from the Lekarev Report, Ascribe unto Hashem the glory due unto His name; worship Him in the beauty of holiness. Psalm 29:2 May we all be blessed in this new month, in which we are expected to experience joy and happiness!! Happy Adar ('Aleph') ! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/e77a66bc/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Feb 6 06:06:54 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 07:06:54 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisundersto... Message-ID: Hanoch: I just love your open, honest, and straight forward communication. We never have to wonder where you stand. Israel is to be a light to the nations. The problem the lost tribes got Gentilized and lost the light. That only left Judah with the light of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. As I understand it, and it would take several emails to explain it, except for circumcision of the flesh, and there was a good reason why the God-fearing Gentile was to remain in their foreskin, But in everything else all, all, all, are to keep the holy and righteous commandments of G-D. If Israel was to be a light unto the nations, then what was the light, but the wonderful and holy TORAH of the Most High G-D? How much better would this war torn world be if the whole world of humanity kept the commandments of G-D That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Clyde. **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/34d4c104/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstoo... Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 23:13:01 EST Size: 9905 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/34d4c104/attachment.mht From mhyde7 at tds.net Wed Feb 6 07:11:27 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:11:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Carrying permit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003701c868c1$c9889f10$0200a8c0@marvin> By all means share the post as you see fit. From what little I have read or heard about Rav Kahane , We will have to get the books. Shalom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 6:59 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shabbat Carrying permit Yes, I remember this! Thank you for posting it...yes, a Jewish man was killed in Crown Heights, by a mugger, because he didn't have any money with him, since it was Shabbat. The Galut-mentality (Exile-Mentality) Rabbis who responded to this, were actually considering advocating carrying "mugger money" on Shabbat!! And yes, Rav Kahane (May G-d Avenge his blood) DID write a column questioning WHY instead, these same Rabbis didn't, instead, advocate carrying a gun! I just received a notice yesterday (yeah, there are NO coincidences in this world any more, for me, anyway...) that Rav Kahane's widow had just come out with volume one (see below) of what will be two very, very important books. Thank you for bringing this up....wow....1975....now, THAT was MY year! LOL (but only half kidding). Please see below...and yeah, he was SOME Rabbi....definitely the Rabbi that would have brought the final Redemption.....but we didn't merit it then....clearly... Would it be okay with you if I posted your note on another list? See book infor below... With Love of Israel, (as Rav Kahane signed his letters), Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Fresh off the press: RABBI MEIR KAHANE: His Life and Thought (Volume One: 1932-1975) by Libby Kahane >From the back cover: http://www.hameir.org/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypa ge/product_id,14/category_id,2/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemi d,1/Rabbi Meir Kahane was born in New York City in 1932. He studied at the Mir Yeshiva in Brooklyn, receiving rabbinic ordination in 1956. That same year, he completed his law studies at New York Law School, and he subsequently received a master's degree in international law from New York University. After serving as a congregational rabbi, he founded the Jewish Defense League in 1968 in order to combat the rise in antisemitism. Concerned about the alienation and assimilation of Jewish youth, Rabbi Kahane spent two decades touring American college campuses, exhorting Jewish students to learn about Judaism, make aliya to Israel and stand up proudly as Jews. In 1970, he spearheaded a campaign of Jewish activism that led to the emigration of tens of thousands of oppressed Jews from the Soviet Union. He entered the political arena in Israel when he made aliya in 1971 and was a member of the Israeli Knesset from 1984 to 1988. He wrote several best-selling books, including Never Again!, Why Be Jewish? and The Story of the Jewish Defense League. His widely-read weekly columns appeared in The Jewish Press from 1961 to 1990. About the Author: Libby Kahane was married to Rabbi Meir Kahane from 1956 until his untimely death in 1990. Together with their four children, they moved to Israel in 1971, where Libby was employed as a reference librarian at the National Library in Jerusalem for twenty-seven years. Her research experience combines with her first-hand knowledge of events to present a comprehensive survey of Rabbi Kahane's ideology and political strategy, beginning with the childhood experiences that shaped him. She is a proud grandmother and great-grandmother. Quotes from Rabbi Meir Kahane excerpted from book: "When the chips are down, you know who's going to fight for the Jew? Only the Jew. And it's about time we understood this." (1971) "If all anti-Semitism could be made, by magic, to disappear, the American Jew would still face a problem of survival. The disease of assimilation and alienation of Jewish youth from its heritage and people is often spoken about, but its full gravity and danger are not comprehended by most of us. We face the problem of young Jews by the hundreds whose lack of Jewish identity and pride and whose Jewish rootlessness combine to drive them into foreign fields and hostile ideologies.... At the same time, in Israel, the ironic growth of a similar Jewish identity crisis has arisen to plague the state with young Jews who identify with the state but not the Jewish people and whose alienation from Jewish heritage and tradition has now been joined by weakening of ties with their fellow Jews in exile." (1972) "Jewish survival and redemption are proof eternal and ultimate that the world is not governed by logic, by sanity or by man. It is controlled and decreed by G-d." (1975) "The Jew who makes his body bend to his will is a man who has no chains on his arms. The Jew who hears the cry of fellow Jews and casts off from himself the vanities and nonsense of money and sterile status ... and leaps into the waters of duty - this is a man who has come out of Egypt." (1975) Praise for Rabbi Meir Kahane: His Life and Thought (Volume One: 1932-1975): "This is an extraordinary tale of a man with a vision and a mission, whose life's journey was passionately directed to promoting Torah, Jewish pride and power, and the Zionist dream. Rabbi Meir Kahane, teacher, writer, and activist, is portrayed in exceptional detail and vividness, a kind of day-to-day serial drama. His boundless dedication to the Jewish people, skillfully animated and painstakingly documented in this comprehensive biography, can serve as an inspiration for Jewish youth today, as he did in his lifetime. A major figure in modern Jewish history, Meir Kahane can now be judiciously assessed and appreciated through this new and gripping volume." -Dr. Mordechai Nisan, author of Toward a New Israel: The Jewish State and the Arab Question, Lectures on the Middle East. "Your biography is well-written and meticulously researched. (Your years of work as a librarian, which you discuss in your manuscript, clearly came in handy.) The combination of memoir and biography works well, and the narrative is structured around a combination of interviews and careful archival research that largely lets your late husband speak for himself, with only limited editorializing on your part, which was a very wise decision... A work of scholarship that attempts to contextualize his actions both personally and historically, and let readers draw their own conclusion.. You try to show the person, the husband and father, behind his bitterly controversial political persona. It will be a major addition to our knowledge of a very turbulent period in Jewish history." -Dr. Peter Eisenstadt, editor in chief, Encyclopedia of New York State and Encyclopedia of New York City _____ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/9ce778db/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 6 08:24:09 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 14:24:09 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020620081424.14598.47A9C306000DE28F0000390622230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> You are right Rick, the account in Acts literally says he heard a voice and saw a light. My term "face to face" is an allusion that I chose because it is obvious to me in all of Paul's writings that he believed that he certainly stood before the resurrected Yeshua. While he could not "see" his face, he was in his presence. None of that changes my conundrum however. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij : -------------- Hey John, You wrote: How in the world could the writings of a devout and learned Rabbi who met the resurrected Yeshua "face to face" (by his own account) whom he considered to be the Messiah. It is reported in the N.T. that Paul heard a voice and saw light but no face to face encounter. Did I miss something? Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "carlson_john at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2008 11:04:25 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstoo... So now we are getting to what I consider to be the underlying Paul "Question", did Paul misunderstand Yeshua or did Christianity misunderstand Paul? This is my conundrum. How in the world could the writings of a devout and learned Rabbi who met the resurrected Yeshua "face to face" (by his own account) whom he considered to be the Messiah. Yeshua, who never once claimed to be the "end" of the Torah but rather the fulfillment of it (by all accounts). Be at such odds with the Torah that Yeshua himself followed and lived. I have always been predisposed to try to reduce problems to their simplest level (I believe strongly in Occam's Razor) and I see only three possible answers here. 1. Paul was out to lunch (which I don't believe), 2. Christianity has misunderstood or deliberately distorted Paul's message or 3. Paul's letters (and all the others) don't belong in the canon at all. Yeshua never said "Believe in me and you will be saved". He said to follow him, to do as he did and he followed Torah and worshipped YHVH. How could Paul who knew him (resurrected) and knew his disciples possibly get that wrong? I don't have the answer yet but I'm looking for it. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hi Dick - Okay, I'm the Jewish guy here who doesn't know much of the Christian Bible (NT), but I don't think you and Amy are talking about 'apples to apples' here. You are talking about Gentiles and Torah observance, and the Noahide laws. Amy wrote: That is why as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? All of this talk about one law for the Jew and one law for the Gentile is fine, but are you a Gentile? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right? Unless I'm totally misunderstanding Amy's point, she is referring to those of the 'Lost Tribes' - Ephraim. I truly believe, and I've already said it on this list, (MY PERSONAL OPINION and understanding), that if someone believes themselves to be from the Tribes, then they DO need to begin observing the Torah. There is no way (at this time...) to prove that someone is from the Tribes, but if their HEART is pulling them to Torah, Israel and the support of the Jewish people, then as far as I am concerned - they are from the Tribes, period! Now, I don't know if this means that you'll 'heatedly' disagree with me, too - but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree! :-) There is one thing that you wrote that I'm hoping you can explain to me Dick, because I want to be sure that I understand it. You wrote: The way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and heirs, according to the promise. Okay, so does this mean that if someone "believes" in Yeshua (and there are probably a dozen definitions of what THAT could mean), then he or she does not need to observe the Torah (beyond those 7 basic Noahide laws) at all??? That somehow they're "covered??" Although, as a Jew, I have to observe the Torah to achieve what non-Jews can get, simply by 'belief' in Yeshua?? Well, now you'll have to call ME, 'confused....' looking forward to hearing from you! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/67c6c1d4/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Feb 6 08:47:18 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:47:18 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisundersto... Message-ID: Shalom: John I take your point #2 as the best approach. "2. Christianity has misunderstood or deliberately distorted Paul's message." N.T. Wright wrote a paper expressing that when he read Romans as a stand alone document he has had to spin certain texts, other wise Paul is for the Law [Torah]. James Dunn in his two-volumes Romans commentary, states if we take Rom 3:29-31 at face value Paul upholds the Law [Torah]. However, Dunn being a good protestant - sets the record starlight, when he says, Lets give Paul more credit than that. How does Dunn do that? He spins the verses and turns them upside down, and his anti-nomism wins the day. Now, are these two otherwise brilliant scholars being honest or dishonest? Lest each decide for themselves. My own thought is not toward the mountains of false Christian propaganda, no, my concern is for the lost tribes, and yes even God-fearing Gentiles taken in by the twisting and wresting texts out of their simple and straight forward meaning. It is the letters of Paul misunderstood at least from my view, we must get right, if we are to be a light to the common folks. My rule of thumb is take the simple and lest ambiguous texts first. In Php 2:5: "Let this mind be in you which was also in messiah Yeshua". Being a simple person and having read what was in the mind of Yeshua, and if two + two = four then it was the Torah, Prophets, and Writings that was in the mind of Yeshua. Now, Paul being sent to the synagogue where these God-fearers attended, then somebody had to have informed them of what was in the mind of Yeshua. To John's second point: Yeshua never said "Believe in me and you will be saved". He said to follow him, to do as he did and he followed Torah and worshipped YHVH. How simple is that? My thought is that every one on this list are watchmen - to be speaking out, as kindly as we can, to give light since all ungodliness G-D shall judge. In Ex 12 49, as I read it, ONE TORAH SHALL BE TO HIM THAT IS HOMEBORN, AND UNTO THE STRANGER THAT SOJOURNS AMONG YOU. One last point. Ross has said, we have very few saying of Yeshua in the gospel's, but we know what he believed, and therefore Moses is read in the synagogue from Sabbath to Sabbath. Shalom Clyde **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/c6bbf258/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstoo... Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 05:04:25 +0000 Size: 12721 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/c6bbf258/attachment.mht From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Wed Feb 6 09:07:44 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (rlibby03) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 10:07:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... References: <020620080504.26402.47A93FD50006DB950000672222218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <008f01c868d2$06f52890$6d01a8c0@Dicks> I agree with your # 2 answer John. almost agree with # 3. I will ask virtually the same question as before. Who was Yeshua's audience. Who did he basicly send his message to. I believe it was his brethern, the Jewish peoples, although there were Gentiles who believed in the God of Israel there as well Saul's message was certainly different to the Gentiles. You could be right,that Saul misunderstood Yeshua. And its well known that Christianity corrupted the N T. As some know, that my early learning experience came from Vendyl Jones. His teachings came mostly through Rabbinic understanding. One thing I understood from this [ if I remember correctly ] that the 31/2 reading of the Torah scroll was what Jesus fulfilled, [ or actually lived ] in his last yrs. As I understand Saul, as the Gentile could not keep the Torah as a Jew, Jesus did it for them so the Gentile could have like inheritance with them. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. It's only the way I see it. Hanoch ! How often do we read, "Speak unto the Children of Israel." Are you saying that the Gentiles are included in that statement??? What I think is, that Gentiles should not be keeping what was given to Jews. Yes I understand what U said, but not sure if I agree. I need more understanding on that subject. Now what really got me was the statement that Gentile's were Pagans. After re reading my comeback, i believe I came on to strong. Sorry about that Amy !! Personnelly I think that Vendyls book, "Will the real Jesus Please stand", would be great for the new commers here. Not that its perfect, but it covers alot. Everything changes as we learn??? I don't have the answer yet but I'm looking also. Right on John ! ----- Original Message ----- /2 aFrom: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... So now we are getting to what I consider to be the underlying Paul "Question", did Paul misunderstand Yeshua or did Christianity misunderstand Paul? This is my conundrum. How in the world could the writings of a devout and learned Rabbi who met the resurrected Yeshua "face to face" (by his own account) whom he considered to be the Messiah. Yeshua, who never once claimed to be the "end" of the Torah but rather the fulfillment of it (by all accounts). Be at such odds with the Torah that Yeshua himself followed and lived. I have always been predisposed to try to reduce problems to their simplest level (I believe strongly in Occam's Razor) and I see only three possible answers here. 1. Paul was out to lunch (which I don't believe), 2. Christianity has misunderstood or deliberately distorted Paul's message or 3. Paul's letters (and all the others) don't belong in the canon at all. Yeshua never said "Believe in me and you will be saved". He said to follow him, to do as he did and he followed Torah and worshipped YHVH. How could Paul who knew him (resurrected) and knew his disciples possibly get that wrong? I don't have the answer yet but I'm looking for it. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hi Dick - Okay, I'm the Jewish guy here who doesn't know much of the Christian Bible (NT), but I don't think you and Amy are talking about 'apples to apples' here. You are talking about Gentiles and Torah observance, and the Noahide laws. Amy wrote: That is why as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? All of this talk about one law for the Jew and one law for the Gentile is fine, but are you a Gentile? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right? Unless I'm totally misunderstanding Amy's point, she is referring to those of the 'Lost Tribes' - Ephraim. I truly believe, and I've already said it on this list, (MY PERSONAL OPINION and understanding), that if someone believes themselves to be from the Tribes, then they DO need to begin observing the Torah. There is no way (at this time...) to prove that someone is from the Tribes, but if their HEART is pulling them to Torah, Israel and the support of the Jewish people, then as far as I am concerned - they are from the Tribes, period! Now, I don't know if this means that you'll 'heatedly' disagree with me, too - but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree! :-) There is one thing that you wrote that I'm hoping you can explain to me Dick, because I want to be sure that I understand it. You wrote: The way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and heirs, according to the promise. Okay, so does this mean that if someone "believes" in Yeshua (and there are probably a dozen definitions of what THAT could mean), then he or she does not need to observe the Torah (beyond those 7 basic Noahide laws) at all??? That somehow they're "covered??" Although, as a Jew, I have to observe the Torah to achieve what non-Jews can get, simply by 'belief' in Yeshua?? Well, now you'll have to call ME, 'confused....' looking forward to hearing from you! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/eae5fa1c/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Feb 6 16:39:31 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 17:39:31 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunders... Message-ID: **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/08191369/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christianty misunderstood Sha'ul? Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 16:07:57 EST Size: 9793 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/08191369/attachment.mht From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 6 20:17:34 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:17:34 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] For those suffering affliction Message-ID: <020720080217.894.47AA6A3E000DF2040000037E22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me. Psalm 119:50 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word. Psalm 119:67 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes. Psalm 119:71 I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me. Psalm 119:75 Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction. Psalm 119:92 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word. Psalm 119:107 Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy law. Psalm 119:153 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/9de677ac/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 6 21:28:34 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:28:34 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Observance vs 'Belief' in Yeshua/Jesus Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, It's become clear in this recent discussion about WHO should try to observe the Torah, that there is something I'm just 'not getting,' about the various positions. Could someone please explain to me how 'belief' (and please define exactly what that means..) in Yeshua (Jesus, if you prefer) obviate the need to observe Torah (to whatever degree). It doesn't even have to be YOUR position, but if you could explain to me how this is supposed to work - I'd be grateful. Thanks! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/9b65a759/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 6 21:47:34 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:47:34 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Some Adar Wishes Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim - The Hebrew month of Adar (and we've got 2 of them this year!) is supposed to be a very happy and joyful time. So, I wanted to wish you and your families, a wonderful month filled with love, contentment, happiness, joy and inner fulfillment. B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/9e8358ff/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 22:52:15 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:52:15 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Observance vs 'Belief' in Yeshua/Jesus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802062052p36ad1412he9453b31cc0e1be3@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch, Typical Christianity, at least what I was taught in the Church of Christ, is that when one accepts Jesus as savior, one is then under the new covenant and saved by grace alone. They say that Jeremiah 31 has come to pass for those who believe in Jesus; therefore the so called old covenant no longer applies. I was even told that the only reason one should follow 9 of the 10 commandments is that they are repeated in the "New" Testament. Due to the fact that keeping the Sabbath is not in the "New" Testament, it should no longer be followed. Here is a website that I thought might also shed some light on what most churches teach: http://www.allaboutgod.com/how-to-be-saved.htm On another note having to do with the subject of who follows which commandment, I remember Joe Goode teaching that the commandments concerning the "stranger who is among you" are the commands that we (directed towards those of us that he was speaking to) should follow. I believe he said those were the commands for the "G-d fearer" who was not a convert, but wished to attach himself to the congregation of Israel. I don't know if he still believes that way now since he now has a different understanding of the Lost Tribes. ( I will copy and paste this last paragraph to the appropriate subject.) Kim On Feb 6, 2008 9:28 PM, wrote: > Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, > > It's become clear in this recent discussion about WHO should try to > observe the Torah, that there is something I'm just 'not getting,' about the > various positions. Could someone please explain to me how 'belief' (and > please define exactly what that means..) in Yeshua (Jesus, if you prefer) > obviate the need to observe Torah (to whatever degree). It doesn't even > have to be YOUR position, but if you could explain to me how this is > supposed to work - I'd be grateful. > > Thanks! > * Hanoch *the Lil Lion of Judah > > > > ------------------------------ > Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/68ba223a/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 23:12:22 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 23:12:22 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802062112m63b1d211i9bb9761ac3404d1@mail.gmail.com> Hello, all, I have not been able to read most of the emails posted in the last week or so, just a few hear and there. I'm not sure what I believe for everyone, only for myself. I believe that I am a Lost Triber; therefore, I believe I should follow all the commandments that apply to women and non-priests in the Torah. This will not be something I can do overnight. It is a journey on which HaShem is taking me. The following paragraph is pasted from a response I sent to one of Hanoch's emails. Thought it would be better placed under this subject: *On another note having to do with the subject of who follows which commandment, I remember Joe Goode teaching that the commandments concerning the "stranger who is among you" are the commandments that we (directed towards those of us that he was speaking to) should follow. I believe he said those were the commands for the "G-d fearer" who was not a convert, but wished to attach himself to the congregation of Israel. I don't know if he still believes that way now since he now has a different understanding of the Lost Tribes.* Kim On Feb 6, 2008 9:07 AM, rlibby03 wrote: > *I agree with your # 2 answer John. almost agree with # 3. * > * * > * I will ask virtually the same question as before. Who was Yeshua's > audience. Who did he basicly send his message to. I believe it was his > brethern, the Jewish peoples, although there were Gentiles who believed in > the God of Israel there as well Saul's message was certainly different to > the Gentiles. You could be right,that Saul misunderstood Yeshua. And its > well known that Christianity corrupted the N T.* > * * > * As some know, that my early learning experience came from Vendyl > Jones. His teachings came mostly through Rabbinic understanding. One thing > I understood from this [ if I remember correctly ] that the 31/2 reading > of the Torah scroll was what Jesus fulfilled, [ or actually lived ] in his > last yrs. As I understand Saul, as the Gentile could not keep the Torah > as a Jew, Jesus did it for them so the Gentile could have like inheritance > with them. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. It's only the way I see > it. * > * * > * Hanoch ! How often do we read, "Speak unto the Children of > Israel." Are you saying that the Gentiles are included in that > statement??? What I think is, that Gentiles should not be keeping what > was given to Jews. Yes I understand what U said, but not sure if I agree. I > need more understanding on that subject.* > * * > * Now what really got me was the statement that Gentile's were Pagans. > After re reading my comeback, i believe I came on to strong. Sorry about > that Amy !! * > ** > * Personnelly I think that Vendyls book, "Will the real Jesus Please > stand", would be great for the new commers here. Not that its perfect, but > it covers alot. Everything changes as we learn???* > * * > * I don't have the answer yet but I'm looking also. Right on John !* > > ----- Original Message ----- /2 > *aFrom:* carlson_john at bellsouth.net > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 06, 2008 12:04 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - > orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... > > So now we are getting to what I consider to be the underlying Paul > "Question", did Paul misunderstand Yeshua or did Christianity misunderstand > Paul? > > This is my conundrum. How in the world could the writings of a devout and > learned Rabbi who met the resurrected Yeshua "face to face" (by his own > account) whom he considered to be the Messiah. Yeshua, who never once > claimed to be the "end" of the Torah but rather the fulfillment of it (by > all accounts). Be at such odds with the Torah that Yeshua himself followed > and lived. I have always been predisposed to try to reduce problems to > their simplest level (I believe strongly in Occam's Razor) and I see only > three possible answers here. 1. Paul was out to lunch (which I don't > believe), 2. Christianity has misunderstood or deliberately distorted > Paul's message or 3. Paul's letters (and all the others) don't belong in > the canon at all. > > Yeshua never said "Believe in me and you will be saved". He said to > follow him, to do as he did and he followed Torah and worshipped YHVH. How > could Paul who knew him (resurrected) and knew his disciples possibly get > that wrong? > > I don't have the answer yet but I'm looking for it. > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- > > Hi Dick - > > Okay, I'm the Jewish guy here who doesn't know much of the Christian > Bible (NT), but I don't think you and Amy are talking about 'apples to > apples' here. You are talking about Gentiles and Torah observance, and the > Noahide laws. > > Amy wrote: *That is why as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that > G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? All of this > talk about one law for the Jew and one law for the Gentile is fine, but > are you a Gentile? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were > they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they > were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right? > * > Unless I'm totally misunderstanding Amy's point, she is referring to > those of the 'Lost Tribes' - Ephraim. I truly believe, and I've already > said it on this list, (MY PERSONAL OPINION and understanding), that if > someone believes themselves to be from the Tribes, then they *DO* need to > begin observing the Torah. > > There is no way (at this time...) to *prove* that someone is from the > Tribes, but if their HEART is pulling them to Torah, Israel and the support > of the Jewish people, then as far as I am concerned - they are from the > Tribes, period! Now, I don't know if this means that you'll 'heatedly' > disagree with me, too - but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree! :-) > > There is one thing that you wrote that I'm hoping you can explain to > me Dick, because I want to be sure that I understand it. You wrote: The > way I understand Yeshua's life according to Sha'ul is,hefulfilled Torah for > us so we would receive a like inheritance with them. Abraham's seed, and > heirs, according to the promise. > Okay, so does this mean that if someone "believes" in Yeshua (and > there are probably a dozen definitions of what THAT could mean), then he or > she does not need to observe the Torah (beyond those 7 basic Noahide laws) > at all??? That somehow they're "covered??" Although, as a Jew, I have to > observe the Torah to achieve what non-Jews can get, simply by 'belief' in > Yeshua?? > > Well, now you'll have to call *ME*, 'confused....' looking forward to > hearing from you! > > B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, > > * Hanoch *the Lil Lion of Judah > > > > ------------------------------ > Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080206/7bf07f05/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 6 23:56:13 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 05:56:13 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020720080556.15990.47AA9D7D00090D4D00003E7622243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Hey Kim, According to what I have studied. If you are from the Lost Tribes, than you must follow the 613 laws of the Torah. Since the laws pertaining to the Temple sacrifice are temporarily suspended until the Jewish Messiah ben David comes and rebuilds the Temple. there are currently 271 laws in effect for Jews. According to the Jewish bible, G-d judges Gentiles by the 7 laws of Noah. Jews are further obligated to obey laws of holiness not required of Gentiles because the Jewish People are mandated by G-d to be priests to the world. Hope that helps. : ) Tammy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/03eb1840/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 7 06:33:25 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 07:33:25 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: Hi Dick - Not that I'm trying to keep beating a dead issue, but (back then) unless people were Jewish, OR were "G-d Fearers," they WERE Pagan. Regards from your pal in NYC, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/a5b09e09/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 7 06:55:25 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 07:55:25 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Observance vs 'Belief' in Yeshua/Jesus Message-ID: Hi Kim - Thanks for your note - always good to 'see' you! Okay, got that piece now - so how does it 'fit in' with the varying levels of interest in Torah observance to the folks on this list? Come on - this is a totally nonjudgmental group, I'm just trying to get a better understanding... Thanks Kim, and thanks in advance to the others that will jump in :-) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/17734e94/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 09:20:11 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 15:20:11 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020720081520.15212.47AB219A0007C93400003B6C22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> >From what I've read that is a pretty safe statement Hanoch. But like most historical issues, what once had a very narrow connotation it has now taken on broader meaning over time. I think that at some point (couple of thousand years ago) believers of what would have been considered the "modern, civilized" religions (Roman or Greek Mythology) would have considered those who lived in the villages and followed the nature gods (like the Druids) as pagan, Over time the term has come to describe any non-monotheistic, non-abrahamic faith-based religion. Unfortunately even that distinction has been muddied since religions that grew out of Abrahamic faith-based religion (such as Christianity) were contaminated by "pagan" beliefs (Christmas). I just think we need to be careful not to confuse the terms "pagan" and "gentile". It is possible for a gentile to be either pagan or a "G-d Fearer" and still be a gentile. It is not possible for a pagan to become a G-d Fearer and remain a pagan. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hi Dick - Not that I'm trying to keep beating a dead issue, but (back then) unless people were Jewish, OR were "G-d Fearers," they WERE Pagan. Regards from your pal in NYC, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/9230b810/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Thu Feb 7 09:46:21 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 10:46:21 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1729681D1F0C4720A53A0DC18FDA9448@DickLPC> Learned this over 20 yrs ago, after I left Catholicism. Your right on? Dick L Subject: [ Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or has Christiantymisunderstood Sha'ul? Shalom: Well, can we discus the issues, respect each others views, present our views as our opinions, and follow the instruction that Ross has set for the dialogue? This is a test case and each can inform me if I have passed the Ross test? .My own opinion is that Christianity has misunderstood Sha'ul also called Paulus. What do we make of the statements below? "...For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared righteous." (Rom1:13) : ??What advantage then has the Jews? Or what profit is there of circumcision? Much in every way, chiefly because that unto them were committed the oracles [instruction] of God.? (Rom 3:1-2) "...Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through the same faith; Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31) "...What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, except by the Torah; for I had not known lust, except the Torah had said; Thous shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7) . ??Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good? (Rom 7:12 ??For we know that the Torah is spiritual but I am carnal sold under sin.? (Rom 7:14 ??For I delight in the Torah of God after the inward man. (Rom 7:22) Shalom Clyde ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/49920a51/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Thu Feb 7 10:12:08 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:12:08 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Observance vs 'Belief' in Yeshua/Jesus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F5BFC7963284F039456522D78EF7EA9@DickLPC> I too would like that answered??? But to say, "to observe Torah", is a broad statement to me. How about-------"to observe Torah as a Jew or as a Gentile"?? Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Observance vs 'Belief' in Yeshua/Jesus Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, It's become clear in this recent discussion about WHO should try to observe the Torah, that there is something I'm just 'not getting,' about the various positions. Could someone please explain to me how 'belief' (and please define exactly what that means..) in Yeshua (Jesus, if you prefer) obviate the need to observe Torah (to whatever degree). It doesn't even have to be YOUR position, but if you could explain to me how this is supposed to work - I'd be grateful. Thanks! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/1b160ec6/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Thu Feb 7 10:19:38 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:19:38 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisundersto... Message-ID: Dear Hanoch: Truer word were never spoken - then what you have written here. I can only present from my own journey and perspective as each can from theirs. Most in the Christian circles do not have a clue of what a Gentile God-fearer was in late second temple period. As James Tabor puts it, the gates of the synagogues were open to these God-fearers through out the Diaspora. From my own perspective right or wrong I will try to answer your questions in the email - Torah Observance vs 'Belief' in Yeshua/Jesus. For me those who claim to believe in Yeshua and do not observe the Torah as he did, means they do not have the foggiest notion of what he was all about. To say they worship God and refuse his covenantal commandments, i.e. Torah worship they know not what. In terms of the so -called 7 laws of Noah, I refer to Alan F. Segal - Paul the Convert - Who states we have no source of the formation of the 7 Laws of Noah before the third century CE. It is more likely a development by the Rabbinic to define for their own purpose of what constitutes a righteous Gentile. In fact for those who read the so called New covenant texts, will understand that they rule against any notion of a righteous Gentile inheriting the world to come, if they only keep the so-called 7 Laws of Noah. Space does not permit to demonstrate that this is the case, but if there are some on the list who want the proof, they can email me personally. Let me suggest that ethnicity is important because G-D created ethnicity. The sign of the covenants first to Abraham, and then at Sinai was circumcision for the Israelite and the stranger in their midst. When the stranger received circumcision he was just as a home-born Israelite and no longer considered a goy. That is he lost his ethnicity and became an Israelite. In Ex 12: 47-50 there was two commandments, (1) circumcision was required for the Israelite and the stranger in their midst in order to partake of the Passover. The indication is they all lined up for the operation. The second was there shall be ONE Torah for the Israelite and the stranger in their midst. I only wish at this point to emphasis that ONE Torah for all humanity does not change in the so-called new Testament. Ross teaches irrespective of who attends Temple Sinai the Torah of G-D as well he should. Can we imagine the confusion when Ross is reading the Torah and the Prophets if he had to make a separation between who was an Israelite and a Gentile. When the reading is about the Sabbath and the calendar festivals, Ross would have to pause, and explain, now, you Gentiles do not need to observe the Sabbath and Holy days of God, and by the way pig and shell fish is ok for you Gentiles but you Israelites dare not eat these unclean creatures. Is G-D divided and what is good for the Israelite, is not also good for the Gentile? Yes for the Gentile also. Think this whole issue through regarding 7 Laws of Noah and explain to me how in the synagogue or in home fellowship how such division might work, where you teach Moses to one side, and Noah to the other? Surely common sense ought to rule in this issue. No offensive to those who wish to keep Noah only, but why not all come on through to Abraham and Moses so that we can all meet together as one body of believers? Now of course as you have observed Hanoch, there is difference of view regarding Yeshua and how, or if, he has a part in G--D redeeming the world. Some believe Yeshua does, others believe he does not. But nevertheless. should there be any difference when it comes to keeping the Torah of G-D? For me it does not, but if others think otherwise I can respect their view even if I disagree with it. CB **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/584f275f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - or hasChristiantymisunderstoo... Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 07:33:25 EST Size: 4783 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/584f275f/attachment.mht From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Thu Feb 7 10:21:51 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:21:51 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <020720080556.15990.47AA9D7D00090D4D00003E7622243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <020720080556.15990.47AA9D7D00090D4D00003E7622243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <90FA8B94694746A8B776AB31884F6535@DickLPC> Hey ! We are getting closer to the subject. So far no one has mentioned Acts 15:14 to 21. Self explanatory, concerning the 7 Laws. Dick L Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Hey Kim, According to what I have studied. If you are from the Lost Tribes, than you must follow the 613 laws of the Torah. Since the laws pertaining to the Temple sacrifice are temporarily suspended until the Jewish Messiah ben David comes and rebuilds the Temple. there are currently 271 laws in effect for Jews. According to the Jewish bible, G-d judges Gentiles by the 7 laws of Noah. Jews are further obligated to obey laws of holiness not required of Gentiles because the Jewish People are mandated by G-d to be priests to the world. Hope that helps. : ) Tammy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/911235af/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Thu Feb 7 10:26:17 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:26:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3504F7821FDA4CA8B7D50597C443A340@DickLPC> But Hanoch! A G-d Fearer could be a Gentile. ::: Which to me means Non Jew. Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Hi Dick - Not that I'm trying to keep beating a dead issue, but (back then) unless people were Jewish, OR were "G-d Fearers," they WERE Pagan. Regards from your pal in NYC, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/3613588a/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 10:52:14 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:52:14 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020720081652.9649.47AB373E0005DFB2000025B122230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Pretty close Dick. Below are the seven laws of Noah or Noahide for the Gentiles. Acts only lists 3 of the seven. 18 ?Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.? Here are the seven laws of Noahide or Noah for Gentiles. Idolatry is forbidden. Man is commanded to believe in the One G-d alone and worship only Him. Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden. Human beings are not sexual objects, nor is pleasure the ultimate goal of life. Murder is forbidden. The life of a human being, formed in G-d's image, is sacred. Cursing the name of G-d is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting G-d, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals. Theft is forbidden. The world is not ours to do with as we please. Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden. This teaches us to be sensitive to cruelty to animals. (This was commanded to Noah for the first time along with the permission of eating meat. The rest were already given to Adam in the Garden of Eden.) Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice and a just social order to enforce the first six laws and enact any other useful laws or customs. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/8e8b156e/attachment.html From amydomin at aol.com Thu Feb 7 11:18:44 2008 From: amydomin at aol.com (amydomin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 12:18:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <020720080556.15990.47AA9D7D00090D4D00003E7622243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <020720080556.15990.47AA9D7D00090D4D00003E7622243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <8CA37C4A09B646A-A84-3D48@webmail-nf17.sim.aol.com> Tammy, Could you please give scripture reference to what you said about the Jewish bible and G-d judging Gentiles by the 7 laws of Noah... Thanks! Amy -----Original Message----- From: Tamara Michael To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Hey Kim, According to what I have studied. If you are from the Lost Tribes, than you must follow the 613 laws of the Torah. Since the laws pertaining to the Temple sacrifice are temporarily suspended until the Jewish Messiah ben David comes and rebuilds the Temple. there are currently 271 laws in effect for Jews.? According to the Jewish bible,?G-d judges Gentiles by the 7 laws of Noah. Jews are further obligated to obey laws of holiness not required of Gentiles because the Jewish People are mandated by G-d to be priests to the world. ? ? Hope that helps. : ) Tammy _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/f3eadc3a/attachment.html From amydomin at aol.com Thu Feb 7 11:21:56 2008 From: amydomin at aol.com (amydomin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 12:21:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <020720081652.9649.47AB373E0005DFB2000025B122230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <020720081652.9649.47AB373E0005DFB2000025B122230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <8CA37C513276E7F-A84-3E0C@webmail-nf17.sim.aol.com> Could you please tell me where it says that G-d judges the Gentiles by the Noahide laws in the Tanakh? Thanks, Amy -----Original Message----- From: Tamara Michael To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 8:52 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Pretty close Dick. Below are the seven laws of Noah or Noahide for the Gentiles. Acts only lists 3 of the seven. ? 18 ?Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.? ? Here are the seven laws of Noahide or Noah for Gentiles. Idolatry is forbidden. Man is commanded to believe in the One G-d alone and worship only Him. Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden. Human beings are not sexual objects, nor is pleasure the ultimate goal of life. Murder is forbidden. The life of a human being, formed in G-d's image, is sacred. Cursing the name of G-d is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting G-d, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals. Theft is forbidden. The world is not ours to do with as we please. Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden. This teaches us to be sensitive to cruelty to animals. (This was commanded to Noah for the first time along with the permission of eating meat. The rest were already given to Adam in the Garden of Eden.) Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice and a just social order to enforce the first six laws and enact any other useful laws or customs. ? ? _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/17b457de/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 12:59:33 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:59:33 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020720081859.9752.47AB5514000BE79A0000261822193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Hey Amy, According to the Biblical narrative, the flood covered the whole world killing every surface-dwelling creature except Noah, his family and the creatures of the Ark. After the flood, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9): Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it] you shall not eat." (9:4) Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. From man too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the image of God He made man." (9:5-6) The Talmud states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments. Adam and Eve were not enjoined from eating from a living animal since they were forbidden to eat any animal. The remaining six are derived from a seemingly superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16. The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law Seven commandments were the sons of Noah commanded: (1) concerning adjudication, (2) and concerning idolatry, (3) and concerning blasphemy, (4) and concerning sexual immorality, (5) and concerning bloodshed, (6) and concerning robbery, (7) and concerning a limb torn from a living animal" (Talmud Sanh.56a). "This obligation, to teach all the peoples of the earth about the Laws of Noah, is incumbent upon every individual in every era (Mishnah Torah, Law of Kings 8:10). There is an excellent paper written by Robert Clanton concerning the Covenant with Noah here http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrnoach2.html Another article writtne by By Rabbi David Hall http://tzion.org/articles/noahide.html And the Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/4b09d57e/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Thu Feb 7 13:22:28 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:22:28 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand To... Message-ID: Shalom to my friends: If you will permit me, I want to raise a ensign to my friend Ross Nichols who thank G-D makes no distinction nor any separation in the synagogue without walls. My sincere thanks and praise for the teaching of Ross who refuses to raise a wall between those of Judah, the ten lost tribes, and Gentile God-fearers who are being lead out of the Babylonian system. If the Torah is right for the Jews, and just as right for the Lost Tribes, and if we all believe that our G-D is one, and not two or three, then the Torah is right for the Gentile who fears G-D. Someone has brought up acts 15. I noticed a discrepancy - an alteration if you will, on all translations I reviewed. I thank G-D I have friends that understand Hebrew and Greek, I ran by my friend James Tabor who has the grasp on both, to make sure what I was observing would stand the test of language grammar. He wrote me back and said it is precisely as you are reading it. So now lets look at Acts 15. There were several issue at stake, but only one of them I wish to deal with here. A disjunction begins a new clause not necessarily relating to preceding clauses. However a conjunction completes and further explains what is said in previous clauses. I'm sure most understand that, but you may not have noticed where translators have made a disjunction between v. 21, and 22. Now as the rule of language goes v. 22, ia a clause that explains why only these 3 or 4 obligations are placed upon the Gentile God-fearers so that table fellowship can happen between messianic Jews and believing Gentiles. Why are just these few obligations and no more at the time placed upon the Gentile believer? Well, as Ross teaches as I teach as well.To paraphrase Acts 15:21, we should says James, put no greater burden upon these Gentiles turning to G-D, and then lists the 4 obligation, and then in what translators wished to eliminate. These 4 only for now. why? For from early generations Moses has had in every city those that preach him, for he is read on the Sabbath in the synagogues. Now, who attended the synagogues where Moses was read? There were Jews, proselytes and Gentile God-feaers. What did they all hear read every Sabbath in the synagogues? Can we believe James purported to be a chief pillar in the movement? James does not say the 7 Laws of Noah are preached on the Sabbath in the synagogues these God-fearing Gentiles were attending. Read it carefully again, who does James say is read on the Sabbath?. It was Moses that was taught to these God-fearing Gentiles. Only these minimal things for table fellowship. Moses is read in the synagogue, now the Gentile God-fearer should keep right on attending the synagogue and as Ross in our day preaches Moses, so did they in those days. If I have spoken too strongly here please forgive me, I do not wish to offend. CB **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/e59d0657/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: amydomin at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 12:21:56 -0500 Size: 9495 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/e59d0657/attachment.mht From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 14:19:36 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:19:36 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020720082019.7004.47AB67D50007A41700001B5C22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Wow! You go girl! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- Hey Amy, According to the Biblical narrative, the flood covered the whole world killing every surface-dwelling creature except Noah, his family and the creatures of the Ark. After the flood, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9): Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it] you shall not eat." (9:4) Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. From man too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the image of God He made man." (9:5-6) The Talmud states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments. Adam and Eve were not enjoined from eating from a living animal since they were forbidden to eat any animal. The remaining six are derived from a seemingly superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16. The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law Seven commandments were the sons of Noah commanded: (1) concerning adjudication, (2) and concerning idolatry, (3) and concerning blasphemy, (4) and concerning sexual immorality, (5) and concerning bloodshed, (6) and concerning robbery, (7) and concerning a limb torn from a living animal" (Talmud Sanh.56a). "This obligation, to teach all the peoples of the earth about the Laws of Noah, is incumbent upon every individual in every era (Mishnah Torah, Law of Kings 8:10). There is an excellent paper written by Robert Clanton concerning the Covenant with Noah here http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrnoach2.html Another article writtne by By Rabbi David Hall http://tzion.org/articles/noahide.html And the Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/bd568d2d/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 14:40:34 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:40:34 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020720082040.22494.47AB6CC10000ADEE000057DE22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Not to be argumentative but the derivation of the other six seems to be a long stretch from what is stated in Gen 2:16. I can't find any reference to any of the other six prior to Sinai, so I take it that this is of Talmudic deriviation? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- Hey Amy, According to the Biblical narrative, the flood covered the whole world killing every surface-dwelling creature except Noah, his family and the creatures of the Ark. After the flood, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9): Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it] you shall not eat." (9:4) Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. From man too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the image of God He made man." (9:5-6) The Talmud states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments. Adam and Eve were not enjoined from eating from a living animal since they were forbidden to eat any animal. The remaining six are derived from a seemingly superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16. The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law Seven commandments were the sons of Noah commanded: (1) concerning adjudication, (2) and concerning idolatry, (3) and concerning blasphemy, (4) and concerning sexual immorality, (5) and concerning bloodshed, (6) and concerning robbery, (7) and concerning a limb torn from a living animal" (Talmud Sanh.56a). "This obligation, to teach all the peoples of the earth about the Laws of Noah, is incumbent upon every individual in every era (Mishnah Torah, Law of Kings 8:10). There is an excellent paper written by Robert Clanton concerning the Covenant with Noah here http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrnoach2.html Another article writtne by By Rabbi David Hall http://tzion.org/articles/noahide.html And the Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/14147ca3/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 14:41:27 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:41:27 +0000 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand To... Message-ID: <020720082041.20566.47AB6CF70009BF9D0000505622230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> CB! I love this discussion. No offense taken as I consider myself an ongoing student and certainly have plenty of room to learn. Thanks for all of the fantastic input. : ) I understand that as Gentiles we must at "least" follow the minimun laws of Noah. But according to what I have also read. Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of "the righteous among the gentiles". A non-Jew who keeps the Noahide Law in all its details is said to attain the same spiritual and moral level as Israel's own Kohen Gadol (high priest) and that a non-Jew who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a Righteous Gentile and has earned a place in the world to come. As a Gentile I believe and follow the 7 laws of Noah. I understand there are 271 Jewish Laws that the Jewish people follow. Would not the attempt to follow 271 futher laws tend to open the "Gentile" up to committing intentional and unintentional sins against G-d considering it is highly possible I could misinterpret the laws given to the Jewish people and the context behind them? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/5651e948/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 7 15:24:54 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:24:54 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <020720082040.22494.47AB6CC10000ADEE000057DE22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <020720082040.22494.47AB6CC10000ADEE000057DE22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <8CA37E703E34FA7-174C-156B@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com> Hey John - ??? Yes, the Noahide laws come from the Talmud, NOT the Torah, or Tanach.? It seems to some of the folks (on this list), that there's a BIG distinction between the Tanach and the Talmud, in terms of authority, so? I would imagine that this creates a bit of a dilemma for them.? I'm borrowing someone's computer at a seminar right now, so I have to just leave it at that.? I hope to write some more when I get home this evening - particularly about the "G-d Fearers" and what parts of the Torah might apply to everyone.? And no, I'm not trying to be argumentative, either.? :-) ??? Hope to talk to y'all later ??????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 3:40 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Not to be argumentative but the derivation of the other six seems to be a long stretch from what is stated in Gen 2:16.? I can't find any reference to any of the other six prior to Sinai, so I take it that this is?of Talmudic deriviation? ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- Hey Amy, According to the Biblical narrative, the flood covered the whole world killing every surface-dwelling creature except Noah, his family and the creatures of the Ark. After the flood, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9): Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it] you shall not eat." (9:4) Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. From man too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the image of God He made man." (9:5-6) The Talmud?states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments. Adam and Eve were not enjoined from eating from a living animal since they were forbidden to eat any animal. The remaining six are?derived from a seemingly superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16. ? The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law Seven commandments were the sons of Noah commanded: (1) concerning adjudication, (2) and concerning idolatry, (3) and concerning blasphemy, (4) and concerning sexual immorality, (5) and concerning bloodshed, (6) and concerning robbery, (7) and concerning a limb torn from a living animal"? (Talmud Sanh.56a). "This obligation, to teach all the peoples of the earth about the Laws of Noah, is incumbent upon every individual in every era (Mishnah Torah, Law of Kings 8:10). ? There is an excellent paper written by Robert Clanton concerning the Covenant with Noah here http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrnoach2.html ? Another article writtne by By Rabbi David Hall http://tzion.org/articles/noahide.html ? And the Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html ? _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/768c9ef7/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 7 15:34:02 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:34:02 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <8CA37C513276E7F-A84-3E0C@webmail-nf17.sim.aol.com> References: <020720081652.9649.47AB373E0005DFB2000025B122230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> <8CA37C513276E7F-A84-3E0C@webmail-nf17.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CA37E84AEF6591-174C-160F@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com> Hi Amy - ???? It's in the Talmud, NOT the Tanach....? I hope to write more about this later tonight....Particularly about the 'G-d Fearers'? - a group that really, really needs to be looked at.? And you were totally right when you referred to Gentiles of that era (ie: 1st Century) as 'Pagans.'? At that time there were Jews, 'G-d Fearers,' and Pagans; and Lost Tribers who had turned into Pagans - that's all! ???? Best regards, ??????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah ?????????? -----Original Message----- From: amydomin at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Could you please tell me where it says that G-d judges the Gentiles by the Noahide laws in the Tanakh? ? Thanks, Amy -----Original Message----- From: Tamara Michael To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 8:52 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Pretty close Dick. Below are the seven laws of Noah or Noahide for the Gentiles. Acts only lists 3 of the seven. ? 18 ?Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.? ? Here are the seven laws of Noahide or Noah for Gentiles. Idolatry is forbidden. Man is commanded to believe in the One G-d alone and worship only Him. Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden. Human beings are not sexual objects, nor is pleasure the ultimate goal of life. Murder is forbidden. The life of a human being, formed in G-d's image, is sacred. Cursing the name of G-d is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting G-d, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals. Theft is forbidden. The world is not ours to do with as we please. Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden. This teaches us to be sensitive to cruelty to animals. (This was commanded to Noah for the first time along with the permission of eating meat. The rest were already given to Adam in the Garden of Eden.) Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice and a just social order to enforce the first six laws and enact any other useful laws or customs. ? ? _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/b47e6c99/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Thu Feb 7 15:54:35 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:54:35 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... References: <020720082040.22494.47AB6CC10000ADEE000057DE22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <8CA37E703E34FA7-174C-156B@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00db01c869d4$080f9000$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> As I recall from studies under Vendyl the 7 laws of Noah are found tucked into the first several chaptrs of Genisis.....one by one. That is all I remember. Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Hey John - Yes, the Noahide laws come from the Talmud, NOT the Torah, or Tanach. It seems to some of the folks (on this list), that there's a BIG distinction between the Tanach and the Talmud, in terms of authority, so I would imagine that this creates a bit of a dilemma for them. I'm borrowing someone's computer at a seminar right now, so I have to just leave it at that. I hope to write some more when I get home this evening - particularly about the "G-d Fearers" and what parts of the Torah might apply to everyone. And no, I'm not trying to be argumentative, either. :-) Hope to talk to y'all later Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 3:40 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Not to be argumentative but the derivation of the other six seems to be a long stretch from what is stated in Gen 2:16. I can't find any reference to any of the other six prior to Sinai, so I take it that this is of Talmudic deriviation? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- Hey Amy, According to the Biblical narrative, the flood covered the whole world killing every surface-dwelling creature except Noah, his family and the creatures of the Ark. After the flood, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9): a.. Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it] you shall not eat." (9:4) b.. Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. >From man too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the image of God He made man." (9:5-6) The Talmud states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments. Adam and Eve were not enjoined from eating from a living animal since they were forbidden to eat any animal. The remaining six are derived from a seemingly superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16. The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law Seven commandments were the sons of Noah commanded: (1) concerning adjudication, (2) and concerning idolatry, (3) and concerning blasphemy, (4) and concerning sexual immorality, (5) and concerning bloodshed, (6) and concerning robbery, (7) and concerning a limb torn from a living animal" (Talmud Sanh.56a). "This obligation, to teach all the peoples of the earth about the Laws of Noah, is incumbent upon every individual in every era (Mishnah Torah, Law of Kings 8:10). There is an excellent paper written by Robert Clanton concerning the Covenant with Noah here http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrnoach2.html Another article writtne by By Rabbi David Hall http://tzion.org/articles/noahide.html And the Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/f2629585/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 16:50:56 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:50:56 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020720082250.17255.47AB8B4F000B5EBC0000436722230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Yeah your gonna have to elaborate on that somewhat. From what I've seen, not all "G-d Fearers" were Jewish or lost tribers so that makes them Gentiles. So it they were G-d Fearers how could they be Pagans? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hi Amy - It's in the Talmud, NOT the Tanach.... I hope to write more about this later tonight....Particularly about the 'G-d Fearers' - a group that really, really needs to be looked at. And you were totally right when you referred to Gentiles of that era (ie: 1st Century) as 'Pagans.' At that time there were Jews, 'G-d Fearers,' and Pagans; and Lost Tribers who had turned into Pagans - that's all! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah -----Original Message----- From: amydomin at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Could you please tell me where it says that G-d judges the Gentiles by the Noahide laws in the Tanakh? Thanks, Amy -----Original Message----- From: Tamara Michael To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 8:52 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Pretty close Dick. Below are the seven laws of Noah or Noahide for the Gentiles. Acts only lists 3 of the seven. 18 ???Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.??? Here are the seven laws of Noahide or Noah for Gentiles. Idolatry is forbidden. Man is commanded to believe in the One G-d alone and worship only Him. Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden. Human beings are not sexual objects, nor is pleasure the ultimate goal of life. Murder is forbidden. The life of a human being, formed in G-d's image, is sacred. Cursing the name of G-d is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting G-d, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals. Theft is forbidden. The world is not ours to do with as we please. Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden. This teaches us to be sensitive to cruelty to animals. (This was commanded to Noah for the first time along with the permission of eating meat. The rest were already given to Adam in the Garden of Eden.) Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice and a just social order to enforce the first six laws and enact any other useful laws or customs. _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/3c7b3385/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 16:52:11 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:52:11 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020720082252.21238.47AB8B9A0003A27E000052F622230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Okey-dokey! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey John - Yes, the Noahide laws come from the Talmud, NOT the Torah, or Tanach. It seems to some of the folks (on this list), that there's a BIG distinction between the Tanach and the Talmud, in terms of authority, so I would imagine that this creates a bit of a dilemma for them. I'm borrowing someone's computer at a seminar right now, so I have to just leave it at that. I hope to write some more when I get home this evening - particularly about the "G-d Fearers" and what parts of the Torah might apply to everyone. And no, I'm not trying to be argumentative, either. :-) Hope to talk to y'all later Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 3:40 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Not to be argumentative but the derivation of the other six seems to be a long stretch from what is stated in Gen 2:16. I can't find any reference to any of the other six prior to Sinai, so I take it that this is of Talmudic deriviation? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- Hey Amy, According to the Biblical narrative, the flood covered the whole world killing every surface-dwelling creature except Noah, his family and the creatures of the Ark. After the flood, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9): Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it] you shall not eat." (9:4) Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. From man too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the image of God He made man." (9:5-6) The Talmud states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments. Adam and Eve were not enjoined from eating from a living animal since they were forbidden to eat any animal. The remaining six are derived from a seemingly superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16. The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law Seven commandments were the sons of Noah commanded: (1) concerning adjudication, (2) and concerning idolatry, (3) and concerning blasphemy, (4) and concerning sexual immorality, (5) and concerning bloodshed, (6) and concerning robbery, (7) and concerning a limb torn from a living animal" (Talmud Sanh.56a). "This obligation, to teach all the peoples of the earth about the Laws of Noah, is incumbent upon every individual in every era (Mishnah Torah, Law of Kings 8:10). There is an excellent paper written by Robert Clanton concerning the Covenant with Noah here http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrnoach2.html Another article writtne by By Rabbi David Hall http://tzion.org/articles/noahide.html And the Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/7fbd48c0/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 16:59:59 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:59:59 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020720082259.17189.47AB8D6F0004F4700000432522230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> John, These "Seven Laws" [Sheva Mitzvot] are said to be derived from Genesis 9:1-17. Their real origin is in the Tosefta (Sanhedrin 9:4). This work was compiled to parallel and supplement the Mishnah. They also appear in the Gemara, which was added to the Mishnah to form the Talmud. So apparently we are back to the interpretation of Scripture by man again. Interesting conundrum. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/1d4e85d0/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 17:13:19 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:13:19 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020720082313.208.47AB908E000D5D86000000D022230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hanoch has more to say on this subject so let's see what he has to offer. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- John, These "Seven Laws" [Sheva Mitzvot] are said to be derived from Genesis 9:1-17. Their real origin is in the Tosefta (Sanhedrin 9:4). This work was compiled to parallel and supplement the Mishnah. They also appear in the Gemara, which was added to the Mishnah to form the Talmud. So apparently we are back to the interpretation of Scripture by man again. Interesting conundrum. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/5bb1b1aa/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 17:39:57 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:39:57 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020720082339.13557.47AB96CD000AB3A3000034F522230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> I'm all ears or would that be eyes? : ) Tammy Hanoch has more to say on this subject so let's see what he has to offer. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- John, These "Seven Laws" [Sheva Mitzvot] are said to be derived from Genesis 9:1-17. Their real origin is in the Tosefta (Sanhedrin 9:4). This work was compiled to parallel and supplement the Mishnah. They also appear in the Gemara, which was added to the Mishnah to form the Talmud. So apparently we are back to the interpretation of Scripture by man again. Interesting conundrum. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/36ef3243/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Thu Feb 7 18:18:25 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:18:25 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? DidSha'ulmisunderstand To... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008101c869e8$205b6990$0200a8c0@marvin> Clyde and others, Without laboring the Gentile's (word) to death, I generally see two groups of people in the bible. After Abraham, Isaac, Jocab there are Israelites and there is everybody else.(Gentiles) I do not see / understand the description of a person as being a gentile pertaining to what they believe about God. Moses' father in law was a gentile and he had a relationship with God. The torah teaches us that God separated the Israelites form the 70 nations and gave them laws that would make them different / set apart It has been my understanding that the 4 or 7 in Acts 15 were the mimminum requirement for Jews and Gentiles to fellowship. Then if those God -fearing Gentiles wanted to proceed further in their learning and "walk" they would go to the Synagogue. At the synagogue, they would learn progress and grow. Now, with that being said, logic would dictate that God-fearers would either evidently become full converts or fall away and go back to the gentile world unless their was a middle ground. In the past, years ago, I was taught that God-fearers "keep the seven and go to Heaven" - but it was stressed that as you learn and take on more commandants and mitzvoth you do it from a position of knowledge. It is not something you do lightly. Although, I can believe that in the future we are all going to know God.. and we even see Gentile nations keeping the feast and going to Jerusalem 3 times a year, I'm not sure about everybody becoming Jews or Israel. In the Kingdom will their not be Israel / Judah rejoined and the 70 Gentile nations? I know this question is different then the question as to what the 70 nations will be observing in the way of commandments. Even if one was to say that way out in the future when we are all back in the Garden of Eden with God... there will be no distinction between any of us... all human kind will be the same, even if this was so.. In a body less, soul spirit form, neither male nor female. We still have a long way to go and during this time between now and the Gan eden. Therefore, we walk a path based on our individual knowledge and understanding. Then we come to a question of who should be our teachers? Can a Gentile be a teacher? Does it have to be from a trained member of the Jewish nation? If we accept the Jewish teacher do we except them and their opinion 100 %? Can we read the torah and use simple logic and reasoning to learn and decide how to keep the commandments. I generally fall into the camp where there are some things for Gentiles and something's for Israel. But, then if you're a God - fearing gentile and you are in the land of Israel... things are different their then here? Shalom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 2:22 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? DidSha'ulmisunderstand To... Shalom to my friends: If you will permit me, I want to raise a ensign to my friend Ross Nichols who thank G-D makes no distinction nor any separation in the synagogue without walls. My sincere thanks and praise for the teaching of Ross who refuses to raise a wall between those of Judah, the ten lost tribes, and Gentile God-fearers who are being lead out of the Babylonian system. If the Torah is right for the Jews, and just as right for the Lost Tribes, and if we all believe that our G-D is one, and not two or three, then the Torah is right for the Gentile who fears G-D. Someone has brought up acts 15. I noticed a discrepancy - an alteration if you will, on all translations I reviewed. I thank G-D I have friends that understand Hebrew and Greek, I ran by my friend James Tabor who has the grasp on both, to make sure what I was observing would stand the test of language grammar. He wrote me back and said it is precisely as you are reading it. So now lets look at Acts 15. There were several issue at stake, but only one of them I wish to deal with here. A disjunction begins a new clause not necessarily relating to preceding clauses. However a conjunction completes and further explains what is said in previous clauses. I'm sure most understand that, but you may not have noticed where translators have made a disjunction between v. 21, and 22. Now as the rule of language goes v. 22, ia a clause that explains why only these 3 or 4 obligations are placed upon the Gentile God-fearers so that table fellowship can happen between messianic Jews and believing Gentiles. Why are just these few obligations and no more at the time placed upon the Gentile believer? Well, as Ross teaches as I teach as well.To paraphrase Acts 15:21, we should says James, put no greater burden upon these Gentiles turning to G-D, and then lists the 4 obligation, and then in what translators wished to eliminate. These 4 only for now. why? For from early generations Moses has had in every city those that preach him, for he is read on the Sabbath in the synagogues. Now, who attended the synagogues where Moses was read? There were Jews, proselytes and Gentile God-feaers. What did they all hear read every Sabbath in the synagogues? Can we believe James purported to be a chief pillar in the movement? James does not say the 7 Laws of Noah are preached on the Sabbath in the synagogues these God-fearing Gentiles were attending. Read it carefully again, who does James say is read on the Sabbath?. It was Moses that was taught to these God-fearing Gentiles. Only these minimal things for table fellowship. Moses is read in the synagogue, now the Gentile God-fearer should keep right on attending the synagogue and as Ross in our day preaches Moses, so did they in those days. If I have spoken too strongly here please forgive me, I do not wish to offend. CB _____ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/b73441f3/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Feb 7 18:40:27 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:40:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Laws of Noah In-Reply-To: <020720082040.22494.47AB6CC10000ADEE000057DE22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <020720082040.22494.47AB6CC10000ADEE000057DE22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <1106E9EA-86AE-4BC2-95B3-5352358EEBB8@earthlink.net> I wanted to jump in here a bit on the "Seven Laws of Noah," and at the same time recommend Mike Dallen's Web site for insight on the traditional/Jewish view of this subject: http://www.rainbowcovenant.org/ I think it is the case that one can not derive the precise formulation of "seven Mitzvot" of Noah from a simple historical reading the book of Genesis. The various systematic lists come from the Rabbis and are based on the concept of the "dual Torah," that is, the revelation at Sinai of both a written and an Oral Torah. That said, whether one accepts rabbinic tradition in this regard or not, the basic concept is as simple as it is logical. If one merely asks about the faith and ethical standards expected of human beings universally before the specific covenant given to Israel at Sinai (Exodus 20ff), the entire subject opens up. Obviously there were moral standards and ethical expectations, from the time of Noah to Moses, but also from Adam to Noah. One might just as well call these standards the "laws of Adam" or the universal laws of humanity, as the "laws of Noah." The rabbis opt for "laws of Noah" since humanity has a new beginning with him and there is also a covenant made with him and all his descendants. As for determining what those specific laws/commandments and precepts were one has of course the text of Genesis, as well as our common "law written in the heart," universal to all moral discourse. What sort of faith and behavior was expected of Abraham? Or for that matter of Adam, Enoch, or any of the descendants of Noah? Clearly the basic areas of human behavior become obvious, whether one looks positively or negatively: Respect life/don't murder; Live sexually faithful lives/ don't commit adultery; respect property/don't steal; respect truth/ don't bear false witness, and so forth. These are fairly obvious and are universal. They are not so much listed in Genesis as reflected. Cain murders his brother Abel. The text does not stop to say--hey, murder is wrong. Any reader will recognize that. And so it goes... The essential idea then is a simple one. God made a specific covenant with all Israel at Sinai with obligations, standards, rituals, customs, and teachings specific to them as a people. Of course this covenant would include ALL the basic moral laws that are applicable to human beings as a whole, but the Torah in its completeness includes observances and teachings that are also specific to Israel and were never demanded of the nations. This is not to say such laws are not good, but that the laws put upon the nations, upon all humanity, are the minimum. The rabbis actually differ a bit on the precise enumeration of the "seven," and some lists include "honor your parents" or other additions. Still, the point they are trying to make is the same--all nations can turn to the God of Israel and live an ethical life before Him without converting or becoming part of Israel. One might call this "Torah faith for all nations." This does not answer all the questions, such as to what extent should non-Israelites observe Torah commands that are not universally given to all nations? But perhaps a better question than "What is one obligated to do" might be, "What can one do" to draw closer to God and the Ways of righteousness and justice. It seems the two great commandments: love God and love one's fellow, take us a long way in that area. I am of the view that the Sabbath is as universal as humankind, but I realize it is not included by the rabbis, but neither are other laws. I once asked Rabbi Katz, who was strongly advocating the "Seven" and no more for Gentiles, facetiously of course, if it was then okay for us Gentiles to "mislead the blind on the way," a commandment given only to Israel in the Torah. I think he got the point. Hope this helps the discussion. James On Feb 7, 2008, at 3:40 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > Not to be argumentative but the derivation of the other six seems to > be a long stretch from what is stated in Gen 2:16. I can't find any > reference to any of the other six prior to Sinai, so I take it that > this is of Talmudic deriviation? > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" >: -------------- > > Hey Amy, > According to the Biblical narrative, the flood covered the whole > world killing every surface-dwelling creature except Noah, his > family and the creatures of the Ark. After the flood, God sealed a > covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9): > > Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it] you shall not > eat." (9:4) > Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] > your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. From man > too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who > spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the > image of God He made man." (9:5-6) > The Talmud states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the > life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received > six other commandments. Adam and Eve were not enjoined from eating > from a living animal since they were forbidden to eat any animal. > The remaining six are derived from a seemingly superfluous sentence > in Genesis 2:16. > > > The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can > have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least > comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law > > Seven commandments were the sons of Noah commanded: > (1) concerning adjudication, > (2) and concerning idolatry, > (3) and concerning blasphemy, > (4) and concerning sexual immorality, > (5) and concerning bloodshed, > (6) and concerning robbery, > (7) and concerning a limb torn from a living animal" > (Talmud Sanh.56a). > "This obligation, to teach all the peoples of the earth about the > Laws of Noah, is incumbent upon every individual in every era > > (Mishnah Torah, Law of Kings 8:10). > > > There is an excellent paper written by Robert Clanton concerning the > Covenant with Noah here > > http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrnoach2.html > > > Another article writtne by By Rabbi David Hall > > http://tzion.org/articles/noahide.html > > > And the Jewish Virtual Library > > http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/73bbfb9e/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 19:07:23 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 01:07:23 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Laws of Noah Message-ID: <020820080107.17019.47ABAB4B000940510000427B22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> James, In your opinion, am I correct in my understanding that if you feel you are from the "Lost Tribes," you then should follow the 613 laws of the Torah, or is this specific to a certain group or tribe of Israelites? This does not answer all the questions, such as to what extent should non-Israelites observe Torah commands that are not universally given to all nations? But perhaps a better question than "What is one obligated to do" might be, "What can one do" to draw closer to God and the Ways of righteousness and justice. It seems the two great commandments: love God and love one's fellow, take us a long way in that area. I am of the view that the Sabbath is as universal as humankind, but I realize it is not included by the rabbis, but neither are other laws. I once asked Rabbi Katz, who was strongly advocating the "Seven" and no more for Gentiles, facetiously of course, if it was then okay for us Gentiles to "mislead the blind on the way," a commandment given only to Israel in the Torah. I think he got the point. Hope this helps the discussion. James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/db0f1778/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 7 19:42:43 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:42:43 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Tor... Message-ID: Hi John, Sorry I was so rushed before, and it will have to be tomorrow for me to write a very detailed response (getting up @ 4:30AM to be in Brooklyn before 7:00AM - ya gotta love it!). The G-d Fearers were no longer Pagans once they became worshippers of the G-d of Avraham, Yitzhak & Yaakov. They were NOT Jews, but they observed many things (from the Torah) along with the local Jewish communities. They did NOT convert to Judaism, so they remained non-Jews, but they were no longer Pagans. They have NOTHING to do with the Lost Tribes. Will try to write more before Shabbat. Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/d8b5b21d/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 7 19:45:58 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:45:58 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: Hey Dick - YES, G-d Fearers WERE non-Jews, or 'Gentiles,' if you prefer that term, but they were NOT Pagans. Got to run - hope to write more tomorrow. Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/ee77bab7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 7 20:17:33 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:17:33 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Laws of Noah Message-ID: Shalom James - Great explanatory email - thanks for writing it! Hope you're getting some rest - take care! B'Ahava, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/94e9a796/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 21:26:19 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:26:19 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? DidSha'ulmisunderstand Tor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1828271387-1202441397-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1792356810-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Yeah, so they remain Gentiles right? The point I'm responding to is that you said that all Gentiles were pagan. But once Gentiles become G-d fearers they are no longer pagan yet unless they convert they remain Gentile. Right? Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:42:43 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Tor... Hi John, ? ??? Sorry I was so rushed before, and it will have to be tomorrow for me to write a very detailed response (getting up @ 4:30AM to be in Brooklyn before 7:00AM - ya gotta love it!).? The G-d Fearers were no longer Pagans once they became worshippers of the G-d of Avraham, Yitzhak & Yaakov.? They were NOT Jews, but they observed many things (from the Torah) along with the local Jewish communities.? They did NOT convert to Judaism, so they remained non-Jews, but they were no longer Pagans.? They have NOTHING to do with the Lost Tribes. ? ??? Will try to write more before Shabbat. ? ??? Best regards, ??? ??? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ---------------- Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Thu Feb 7 22:00:39 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:00:39 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Sha'ul, Torah, 7 Laws, Christians, 7 Laws & the heart In-Reply-To: <020720082259.17189.47AB8D6F0004F4700000432522230704929B0A0 2D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <020720082259.17189.47AB8D6F0004F4700000432522230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <200802080400.m1840fw4006488@mail134c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/aff48f61/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Feb 7 23:22:05 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:22:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <020720080556.15990.47AA9D7D00090D4D00003E7622243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <020720080556.15990.47AA9D7D00090D4D00003E7622243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802072122h67e8909ftde429eb1aacae5a3@mail.gmail.com> Hey Tammy, It is my understanding that included in the 613 are laws that only apply to the priesthood or to the firstborn. A similar case would be circumcision which is only for men. That is what I meant when I said only the laws that apply to me. Kim On Feb 6, 2008 11:56 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: > Hey Kim, > According to what I have studied. If you are from the Lost Tribes, than > you must follow the 613 laws of the Torah. Since the laws pertaining to the > Temple sacrifice are temporarily suspended until the Jewish Messiah ben > David comes and rebuilds the Temple. there are currently 271 laws in effect > for Jews. According to the Jewish bible, G-d judges Gentiles by the 7 laws > of Noah. Jews are further obligated to obey laws of holiness not required of > Gentiles because the Jewish People are mandated by G-d to be priests to the > world. > > Hope that helps. : ) > Tammy > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/822a4003/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 7 23:31:19 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 05:31:19 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Message-ID: <020820080531.6804.47ABE927000B409D00001A9422230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Hey Kim, Ah, now my curosity is peaked. I wonder how many of the laws actually apply to women? Back to the books. : ) Tammy Hey Tammy, It is my understanding that included in the 613 are laws that only apply to the priesthood or to the firstborn. A similar case would be circumcision which is only for men. That is what I meant when I said only the laws that apply to me Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/9128dcc6/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Feb 7 23:32:33 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:32:33 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <020720082259.17189.47AB8D6F0004F4700000432522230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <020720082259.17189.47AB8D6F0004F4700000432522230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802072132i23b9ffe1n842e07c6c94fd4a3@mail.gmail.com> These 7 laws were definitely known in the 1st century. It is my understanding that they were the minimum requirements a non-Jew needed to follow to be able to associate with the Jews. It is my theory (for what it is worth) is that when Acts was written, Paul was expecting the end at any time. His teaching were based on that. Perhaps he recognized that conversation was not a short process (as it is not today). There was a sense of urgency. He wanted the new believers to be able to associate and learn from the Jews before the kingdom of heaven arrived. I also believe that Paul's message has been distorted and misinterpreted. Kim On Feb 7, 2008 4:59 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: > John, > > These "Seven Laws" [Sheva Mitzvot] are said to be derived from Genesis > 9:1-17. Their real origin is in the Tosefta (Sanhedrin 9:4). This work was > compiled to parallel and supplement the Mishnah. They also appear in the > Gemara, which was added to the Mishnah to form the Talmud. > > So apparently we are back to the interpretation of Scripture by man again. > Interesting conundrum. > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/ba60e74a/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Feb 7 23:50:12 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:50:12 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Tor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802072150y14c93797u5366955ce5fc43dc@mail.gmail.com> I have always thought of a pagan as being more than just non-jew (a gentile). To me a pagan not only does not follow the Living God of Israel, he follows false gods and participates in the immortality associated with idol worship. Kim On Feb 7, 2008 7:42 PM, wrote: > Hi John, > > Sorry I was so rushed before, and it will have to be tomorrow for me > to write a very detailed response (getting up @ 4:30AM to be in Brooklyn > before 7:00AM - ya gotta love it!). The G-d Fearers were no longer Pagans > once they became worshippers of the G-d of Avraham, Yitzhak & Yaakov. They > were NOT Jews, but they observed many things (from the Torah) along with the > local Jewish communities. They did NOT convert to Judaism, so they remained > non-Jews, but they were no longer Pagans. They have NOTHING to do with the > Lost Tribes. > > Will try to write more before Shabbat. > > Best regards, > * Hanoch *the Lil Lion of Judah > > > > ------------------------------ > Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/110308ff/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 8 00:00:09 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 06:00:09 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Tor... Message-ID: <020820080600.24130.47ABEFE7000C60ED00005E4222243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> This is what I found earlier Kim; Just a point of clarification here (we have had some discussion on this awhile ago). Historically and semantically the terms "pagan" and "gentile" are not equivalent, at least in the research I have done. The term pagan comes from a latin root which translates to "country dweller" and has come to mean those people who dwelt in the rural areas that still clung to the ancient nature idolatry (worshipped natural things as gods; sun, moon, trees, etc.). Gentile on the other hand comes from a latin root that translates to "clans or tribes" and is seen as the equivalent of the Hebrew "Goyim" which translates to "nations". So just because a person is a gentile does not necessarily mean they are a pagan. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "kim alvarado" : -------------- I have always thought of a pagan as being more than just non-jew (a gentile). To me a pagan not only does not follow the Living God of Israel, he follows false gods and participates in the immortality associated with idol worship. Kim On Feb 7, 2008 7:42 PM, wrote: Hi John, Sorry I was so rushed before, and it will have to be tomorrow for me to write a very detailed response (getting up @ 4:30AM to be in Brooklyn before 7:00AM - ya gotta love it!). The G-d Fearers were no longer Pagans once they became worshippers of the G-d of Avraham, Yitzhak & Yaakov. They were NOT Jews, but they observed many things (from the Torah) along with the local Jewish communities. They did NOT convert to Judaism, so they remained non-Jews, but they were no longer Pagans. They have NOTHING to do with the Lost Tribes. Will try to write more before Shabbat. Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/c34e2bc1/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 8 00:05:39 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 06:05:39 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Laws of Noah Message-ID: <020820080605.14267.47ABF12E00093AA8000037BB22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Thanks James. Couldn't this be what Paul was trying to convey in Galations? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from James Tabor : -------------- I wanted to jump in here a bit on the "Seven Laws of Noah," and at the same time recommend Mike Dallen's Web site for insight on the traditional/Jewish view of this subject: http://www.rainbowcovenant.org/ I think it is the case that one can not derive the precise formulation of "seven Mitzvot" of Noah from a simple historical reading the book of Genesis. The various systematic lists come from the Rabbis and are based on the concept of the "dual Torah," that is, the revelation at Sinai of both a written and an Oral Torah. That said, whether one accepts rabbinic tradition in this regard or not, the basic concept is as simple as it is logical. If one merely asks about the faith and ethical standards expected of human beings universally before the specific covenant given to Israel at Sinai (Exodus 20ff), the entire subject opens up. Obviously there were moral standards and ethical expectations, from the time of Noah to Moses, but also from Adam to Noah. One might just as well call these standards the "laws of Adam" or the universal laws of humanity, as the "laws of Noah." The rabbis opt for "laws of Noah" since humanity has a new beginning with him and there is also a covenant made with him and all his descendants. As for determining what those specific laws/commandments and precepts were one has of course the text of Genesis, as well as our common "law written in the heart," universal to all moral discourse. What sort of faith and behavior was expected of Abraham? Or for that matter of Adam, Enoch, or any of the descendants of Noah? Clearly the basic areas of human behavior become obvious, whether one looks positively or negatively: Respect life/don't murder; Live sexually faithful lives/don't commit adultery; respect property/don't steal; respect truth/don't bear false witness, and so forth. These are fairly obvious and are universal. They are not so much listed in Genesis as reflected. Cain murders his brother Abel. The text does not stop to say--hey, murder is wrong. Any reader will recognize that. And so it goes... The essential idea then is a simple one. God made a specific covenant with all Israel at Sinai with obligations, standards, rituals, customs, and teachings specific to them as a people. Of course this covenant would include ALL the basic moral laws that are applicable to human beings as a whole, but the Torah in its completeness includes observances and teachings that are also specific to Israel and were never demanded of the nations. This is not to say such laws are not good, but that the laws put upon the nations, upon all humanity, are the minimum. The rabbis actually differ a bit on the precise enumeration of the "seven," and some lists include "honor your parents" or other additions. Still, the point they are trying to make is the same--all nations can turn to the God of Israel and live an ethical life before Him without converting or becoming part of Israel. One might call this "Torah faith for all nations." This does not answer all the questions, such as to what extent should non-Israelites observe Torah commands that are not universally given to all nations? But perhaps a better question than "What is one obligated to do" might be, "What can one do" to draw closer to God and the Ways of righteousness and justice. It seems the two great commandments: love God and love one's fellow, take us a long way in that area. I am of the view that the Sabbath is as universal as humankind, but I realize it is not included by the rabbis, but neither are other laws. I once asked Rabbi Katz, who was strongly advocating the "Seven" and no more for Gentiles, facetiously of course, if it was then okay for us Gentiles to "mislead the blind on the way," a commandment given only to Israel in the Torah. I think he got the point. Hope this helps the discussion. James On Feb 7, 2008, at 3:40 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: Not to be argumentative but the derivation of the other six seems to be a long stretch from what is stated in Gen 2:16. I can't find any reference to any of the other six prior to Sinai, so I take it that this is of Talmudic deriviation? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- Hey Amy, According to the Biblical narrative, the flood covered the whole world killing every surface-dwelling creature except Noah, his family and the creatures of the Ark. After the flood, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9): Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it] you shall not eat." (9:4) Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. From man too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the image of God He made man." (9:5-6) The Talmud states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments. Adam and Eve were not enjoined from eating from a living animal since they were forbidden to eat any animal. The remaining six are derived from a seemingly superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16. The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law Seven commandments were the sons of Noah commanded: (1) concerning adjudication, (2) and concerning idolatry, (3) and concerning blasphemy, (4) and concerning sexual immorality, (5) and concerning bloodshed, (6) and concerning robbery, (7) and concerning a limb torn from a living animal" (Talmud Sanh.56a). "This obligation, to teach all the peoples of the earth about the Laws of Noah, is incumbent upon every individual in every era (Mishnah Torah, Law of Kings 8:10). There is an excellent paper written by Robert Clanton concerning the Covenant with Noah here http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrnoach2.html Another article writtne by By Rabbi David Hall http://tzion.org/articles/noahide.html And the Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/ae0f53fe/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 00:48:26 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 00:48:26 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Tor... In-Reply-To: <020820080600.24130.47ABEFE7000C60ED00005E4222243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <020820080600.24130.47ABEFE7000C60ED00005E4222243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802072248nd524acl9216f969b060bf69@mail.gmail.com> John, That makes perfect sense to my way of thinking. Kim On Feb 8, 2008 12:00 AM, wrote: > This is what I found earlier Kim; > > Just a point of clarification here (we have had some discussion on this > awhile ago). Historically and semantically the terms "pagan" and "gentile" > are not equivalent, at least in the research I have done. The term pagan > comes from a latin root which translates to "country dweller" and has come > to mean those people who dwelt in the rural areas that still clung to the > ancient nature idolatry (worshipped natural things as gods; sun, moon, > trees, etc.). Gentile on the other hand comes from a latin root that > translates to "clans or tribes" and is seen as the equivalent of the Hebrew > "Goyim" which translates to "nations". > > So just because a person is a gentile does not necessarily mean they are a > pagan. > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "kim alvarado" < > kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>: -------------- > > > I have always thought of a pagan as being more than just non-jew (a > gentile). To me a pagan not only does not follow the Living God of Israel, > he follows false gods and participates in the immortality associated with > idol worship. > > > Kim > > On Feb 7, 2008 7:42 PM, wrote: > > > Hi John, > > > > Sorry I was so rushed before, and it will have to be tomorrow for me > > to write a very detailed response (getting up @ 4:30AM to be in Brooklyn > > before 7:00AM - ya gotta love it!). The G-d Fearers were no longer Pagans > > once they became worshippers of the G-d of Avraham, Yitzhak & Yaakov. They > > were NOT Jews, but they observed many things (from the Torah) along with the > > local Jewish communities. They did NOT convert to Judaism, so they remained > > non-Jews, but they were no longer Pagans. They have NOTHING to do with the > > Lost Tribes. > > > > Will try to write more before Shabbat. > > > > Best regards, > > * Hanoch *the Lil Lion of Judah > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL > > Music. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/775e9820/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Feb 8 06:36:32 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 07:36:32 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Laws of Noah Message-ID: James, excellent analysis with some very good points. I find this dialogue simply amazing how each can express their views without discrimination and judgement. It truly demonstrates how truth seekers can listen and learn from each other. It seems to me when all the views are in, all seem to be drawn to what we might coin as the middle pathway. Ethics and morality in the Ten Words most can agree. Its that fourth that becomes the sticking point for Christians by and large. I think Isaiah 56 leaves no one out since it cuts to the chase and outlines who is acceptable to the Most High G-D. Who could argue with that? CB **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/2cbd13b0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Laws of Noah Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:40:27 -0500 Size: 18912 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/2cbd13b0/attachment.mht From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 8 12:22:45 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:22:45 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand To... Message-ID: Hi Tammy & Kim - And while you're looking THAT up, make sure to take note of the number of Mitzvot that CANNOT be done until the Beit HaMikdash (Holy Temple) is rebuilt. Also, a number of the Mitzvot women are 'exempted' for performing are those that are 'time based' - which doesn't mean they can't do them..... Just muddying up the waters a bit more :-) Have a Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/53c66c4e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 8 12:33:04 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:33:04 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? DidSha'ulmisunderstand Tor... Message-ID: Hey John - Yes, they would remain Gentiles, and in my hurry, I misrepresented myself a bit (gee, I wish THAT would have been the first time that it happened...). NOT all Gentiles were necessarily Pagan....but it seems from my readings and study that every society of that era had its series of G-d's, idols, etc. But, there probably were people then, like today, that believed in NOTHING...so they would be Gentiles who were NOT Pagan. They probably just didn't go around shouting about it too much. Their neighbors would have likely killed them..... Shabbat Shalom pal! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/920e9d37/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 8 13:16:34 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:16:34 EST Subject: [Dialogue] What this Dialogue is all about... Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, I've been trying to throw a couple of topics out lately, largely to fill in some gaps in my knowledge base (which is likely to take another 25 years to accomplish..), but also, to kind of get a sense of what people were thinking, and if they truly were willing to discuss deeply routed, hard-core beliefs and emotions (I AM a troublemaker after all, but you guys KNEW that from my history...). A number of people have begun noting how civil these discussions actually have been, and I'd like to quote Clyde, from a recent post: "I find this dialogue simply amazing how each can express their views without discrimination and judgement. It truly demonstrates how truth seekers can listen and learn from each other. It seems to me when all the views are in, all seem to be drawn to what we might coin as the middle pathway." Hi Clyde, I STRONGLY agree with both of your points....everyone is sharing their feelings, knowledge and experience without trying to shove anything down anyone's throat. And yes, we are gravitating toward each other - isn't that fascinating?!?! It's been my most fervent hope and prayer that we would all begin to focus on what unites us, instead of what could (potentially) divide us..... May we ALL take that spirit of sharing and togetherness into Shabbat.... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/9b627d1c/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Feb 8 13:34:55 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:34:55 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? DidSha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <020720081652.9649.47AB373E0005DFB2000025B122230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <020720081652.9649.47AB373E0005DFB2000025B122230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <2C8359CEA47043E6BE6BF16114A672D0@DickLPC> A little closer then that I think? Depends how you read it. 1. acts 15:19 ----turning to G-d 2. 20 abstain from pollutions of idols 3. and fornications 4. and from things strangled 5. and from blood Also its repeated in Acts 21:25----- This is certainly part of the 7 laws which did not take 300 yrs or into the 3rd century to be around. Why did they not give all 7, who knows????? James had to know these long before this time, right?? Dick . Pretty close Dick. Below are the seven laws of Noah or Noahide for the Gentiles. Acts only lists 3 of the seven. 18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." Here are the seven laws of Noahide or Noah for Gentiles. 1.. Idolatry is forbidden. Man is commanded to believe in the One G-d alone and worship only Him. 2.. Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden. Human beings are not sexual objects, nor is pleasure the ultimate goal of life. 3.. Murder is forbidden. The life of a human being, formed in G-d's image, is sacred. 4.. Cursing the name of G-d is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting G-d, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals. 5.. Theft is forbidden. The world is not ours to do with as we please. 6.. Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden. This teaches us to be sensitive to cruelty to animals. (This was commanded to Noah for the first time along with the permission of eating meat. The rest were already given to Adam in the Garden of Eden.) 7.. Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice and a just social order to enforce the first six laws and enact any other useful laws or customs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/9125cc1b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 8 13:36:16 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:36:16 EST Subject: [Dialogue] So, after all the discussion, Who should do What?!? Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, or simply, Hey y'all! Well, not that I want to stifle this discussion, I just wanted to throw in, or clarify some points I either made, or actually, had wanted to make. Since I did not have the whole day off (love those 6 day work weeks, huh?), I am really limited in my time right now. So, it's either a thesis, or cooking for Shabbat. Since my daughter, Ayala has informed that she's "starving," let me assume I DO have to cook for Shabbat, so let me be brief (do you have ANY idea how hard that is for me?!?!? LOL) James, wrote so many really key points in his post, that I would like to paste a section of it for you to review, because it really says a lot: "The essential idea then is a simple one. God made a specific covenant with all Israel at Sinai with obligations, standards, rituals, customs, and teachings specific to them as a people. Of course this covenant would include ALL the basic moral laws that are applicable to human beings as a whole, but the Torah in its completeness includes observances and teachings that are also specific to Israel and were never demanded of the nations. This is not to say such laws are not good, but that the laws put upon the nations, upon all humanity, are the minimum. The rabbis actually differ a bit on the precise enumeration of the "seven," and some lists include "honor your parents" or other additions. Still, the point they are trying to make is the same--all nations can turn to the God of Israel and live an ethical life before Him without converting or becoming part of Israel. One might call this "Torah faith for all nations." This does not answer all the questions, such as to what extent should non-Israelites observe Torah commands that are not universally given to all nations? But perhaps a better question than "What is one obligated to do" might be, "What can one do" to draw closer to God and the Ways of righteousness and justice. It seems the two great commandments: love God and love one's fellow, take us a long way in that area. " I used to wonder if I was not involved in trying to live a Jewish lifestyle, WHAT values would I be looking to impart on my daughters. Excluding the Torah, what value system would I hope to see them live their lives by? And James is totally right - some of it is just good, common sense. If you can focus your energy and learning to to draw closer to God and the Ways of righteousness and justice as James said, you can't really go wrong. My good friend Mike Dallen has written a great book on the Noahide laws, so please check out his Website _http://www.rainbowcovenant.org/_ (http://www.rainbowcovenant.org/) My opinion? There are Torah values, and Torah principles that the WHOLE WORLD should live by, I leave it up to everyone to look into it for themselves. But for the Jewish people and our Ephramite cousins - we're obligated for the WHOLE thing.... :-) Shabbat Shalom to all, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/72fe5a24/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 8 13:54:34 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:54:34 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A few words before Shabbat Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), I was just thumbing through the Tanach (instead of cooking chicken..), and I came upon part of Zechariah, chapter 8. I found the words inspirational, and wanted to share them with you to savior (along with me) over Shabbat: But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as before - declares the L-rd of Hosts - but what it sows shall prosper: The vine shall produce its fruit, the ground shall produce its yield, and the skies shall provide their moisture. I will bestow all these things upon the remnant of this people. And just as you were a curse among the nations, O House of Judah and House of Israel, so, when I vindicate you, you shall become a blessing. Have no fear; take courage! Zechariah 8:11-13 May we merit those days soon... Shabbat Shalom to all, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/7c8f2023/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Feb 8 13:57:49 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:57:49 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <020720082040.22494.47AB6CC10000ADEE000057DE22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <020720082040.22494.47AB6CC10000ADEE000057DE22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <72104F8071EC4D9A92CB862E857B35A7@DickLPC> Does any of you believe in the Oral Law???? It seems to me that it is the only way to be able to fully understand the written. I'm told that it is the most difficult understanding for both Jew & Gentile. But I believe it was passed down to them. They, the Jews have that understanding, { at least those that study it I would guess}???? It may produce answers we do not have? Dick L Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... Not to be argumentative but the derivation of the other six seems to be a long stretch from what is stated in Gen 2:16. I can't find any reference to any of the other six prior to Sinai, so I take it that this is of Talmudic deriviation? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- Hey Amy, According to the Biblical narrative, the flood covered the whole world killing every surface-dwelling creature except Noah, his family and the creatures of the Ark. After the flood, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9): a.. Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it] you shall not eat." (9:4) b.. Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. >From man too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the image of God He made man." (9:5-6) The Talmud states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments. Adam and Eve were not enjoined from eating from a living animal since they were forbidden to eat any animal. The remaining six are derived from a seemingly superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16. The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law Seven commandments were the sons of Noah commanded: (1) concerning adjudication, (2) and concerning idolatry, (3) and concerning blasphemy, (4) and concerning sexual immorality, (5) and concerning bloodshed, (6) and concerning robbery, (7) and concerning a limb torn from a living animal" (Talmud Sanh.56a). "This obligation, to teach all the peoples of the earth about the Laws of Noah, is incumbent upon every individual in every era (Mishnah Torah, Law of Kings 8:10). There is an excellent paper written by Robert Clanton concerning the Covenant with Noah here http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrnoach2.html Another article writtne by By Rabbi David Hall http://tzion.org/articles/noahide.html And the Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/222a44e5/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Feb 8 14:04:16 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:04:16 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? DidSha'ulmisunderstand To... In-Reply-To: <020720082041.20566.47AB6CF70009BF9D0000505622230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <020720082041.20566.47AB6CF70009BF9D0000505622230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <4EE0240ABF8C4E9F8FD7711D7F3049DB@DickLPC> Love it as well !! I wanted to put this one in but I got lost in my mail. Acts 28:28 Salvation of G-d to the Gentile. I can't help think that if everyone lived by the Jewish Laws & became Jews, there would be no need of a Special people for all would be one?? Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? DidSha'ulmisunderstand To... CB! I love this discussion. No offense taken as I consider myself an ongoing student and certainly have plenty of room to learn. Thanks for all of the fantastic input. : ) I understand that as Gentiles we must at "least" follow the minimun laws of Noah. But according to what I have also read. Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of "the righteous among the gentiles". A non-Jew who keeps the Noahide Law in all its details is said to attain the same spiritual and moral level as Israel's own Kohen Gadol (high priest) and that a non-Jew who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a Righteous Gentile and has earned a place in the world to come. As a Gentile I believe and follow the 7 laws of Noah. I understand there are 271 Jewish Laws that the Jewish people follow. Would not the attempt to follow 271 futher laws tend to open the "Gentile" up to committing intentional and unintentional sins against G-d considering it is highly possible I could misinterpret the laws given to the Jewish people and the context behind them? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/d6b214f5/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 8 14:24:36 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:24:36 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Tor... Message-ID: I believe in the Oral Law Dick, but in this case, I guess you kind of expected that, huh? :-) Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/9831b8f7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 8 14:27:17 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:27:17 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? DidSha'ulmisunderstand To... Message-ID: Hey Dick - It was never anyone's plan (certainly not G-d's!) for everyone to become Jewish... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/2f181837/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Feb 8 14:42:28 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:42:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <020720082019.7004.47AB67D50007A41700001B5C22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <020720082019.7004.47AB67D50007A41700001B5C22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <2776E8BF6C894CE29C1413F4161471A6@DickLPC> I can only imagine that the Talmud was NOT responsible for this part of the 7 Laws would I::?????? It would be that they helped explain them, as ALL flesh came under them at the time of Noah. Written by man?? Yup ! Noah was a man. Dick L Wow! You go girl! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- Hey Amy, According to the Biblical narrative, the flood covered the whole world killing every surface-dwelling creature except Noah, his family and the creatures of the Ark. After the flood, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9): a.. Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it] you shall not eat." (9:4) b.. Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. >From man too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the image of God He made man." (9:5-6) The Talmud states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments. Adam and Eve were not enjoined from eating from a living animal since they were forbidden to eat any animal. The remaining six are derived from a seemingly superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16. The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law Seven commandments were the sons of Noah commanded: (1) concerning adjudication, (2) and concerning idolatry, (3) and concerning blasphemy, (4) and concerning sexual immorality, (5) and concerning bloodshed, (6) and concerning robbery, (7) and concerning a limb torn from a living animal" (Talmud Sanh.56a). "This obligation, to teach all the peoples of the earth about the Laws of Noah, is incumbent upon every individual in every era (Mishnah Torah, Law of Kings 8:10). There is an excellent paper written by Robert Clanton concerning the Covenant with Noah here http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrnoach2.html Another article writtne by By Rabbi David Hall http://tzion.org/articles/noahide.html And the Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/877a9474/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Feb 8 14:59:11 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:59:11 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment?DidSha'ulmisunderstand To... In-Reply-To: <008101c869e8$205b6990$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <008101c869e8$205b6990$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3EA6B93843754BA9831C46DA33C6F811@DickLPC> Between Mhyde & James I believe that what I've been trying to say. At least overall. It has been interesting to say the least. Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 7:18 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment?DidSha'ulmisunderstand To... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/7df2c019/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Feb 8 15:08:38 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:08:38 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <020820080531.6804.47ABE927000B409D00001A9422230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <020820080531.6804.47ABE927000B409D00001A9422230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <5ABD5AA7EACE46058EDEF27836E35387@DickLPC> There are Laws for women, & farmers and --------whatever. As a man I cannot give birth or have periods, so-----they are for you. Let us know what U find. It will not be all 613 of them. Dick L Hey Kim, Ah, now my curosity is peaked. I wonder how many of the laws actually apply to women? Back to the books. : ) Tammy Hey Tammy, It is my understanding that included in the 613 are laws that only apply to the priesthood or to the firstborn. A similar case would be circumcision which is only for men. That is what I meant when I said only the laws that apply to me Kim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/5efed7ae/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Feb 8 15:12:22 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:12:22 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0802072132i23b9ffe1n842e07c6c94fd4a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <020720082259.17189.47AB8D6F0004F4700000432522230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> <1c8dbb6e0802072132i23b9ffe1n842e07c6c94fd4a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Excuse me Dear Kim. Was that meant to be conversion???? Even conversation would not be a short process around here either??? he he ! Loved it. ----- Original Message ----- From: kim alvarado To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:32 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... These 7 laws were definitely known in the 1st century. It is my understanding that they were the minimum requirements a non-Jew needed to follow to be able to associate with the Jews. It is my theory (for what it is worth) is that when Acts was written, Paul was expecting the end at any time. His teaching were based on that. Perhaps he recognized that conversation was not a short process (as it is not today). There was a sense of urgency. He wanted the new believers to be able to associate and learn from the Jews before the kingdom of heaven arrived. I also believe that Paul's message has been distorted and misinterpreted. Kim On Feb 7, 2008 4:59 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: John, These "Seven Laws" [Sheva Mitzvot] are said to be derived from Genesis 9:1-17. Their real origin is in the Tosefta (Sanhedrin 9:4). This work was compiled to parallel and supplement the Mishnah. They also appear in the Gemara, which was added to the Mishnah to form the Talmud. So apparently we are back to the interpretation of Scripture by man again. Interesting conundrum. _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/d3cb2c27/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Feb 8 17:09:58 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:09:58 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A few words before Shabbat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006901c86aa7$ba0a50a0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Shabbat Shalom Everyone! This is a wonderful quote, Hanoch! Thanks so much. I am so sorry that I have missed all of this great discussion! Wow!!! I have been having to stay in bed beginning from last Shabbat due to severe pain caused from muscle inflammation in my back, which was no fun at all; but am so much better today (Baruch HaShem!) and am looking forward to celebrating a wonderful Shabbat and getting back on line and reading the hundreds of posts sitting in my inbox! You will all be in my heart and in my prayers as I kindle the Shabbat candles tonight and recite the blessing and symbolically bring a portion of light back into the world and spread it around. I found a beautiful blessing years ago which I recite each Shabbat that I would like to share with you. This is one of my most favorite times of the week. What a privilege it is to be a part of Shabbat and all that it brings to our lives! Y'hi ratzon, May it be Your will HaShem My G-d and G-d of our fathers, to be gracious to us and to our children and our families and to all Your children around the world, crowing our home with Your Divine Presence (Scheckinah) dwelling among us. Help us in raising our children and our grandchildren so that they will grow and dazzle the world with Torah and goodness, and ensure that the glow of our lives will never be dimmed. Please show us the glow of Your Face, HaShem and we will be saved. Amen May you have beautiful Shabbat blessings each and every one, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 1:55 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] A few words before Shabbat Shalom Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), I was just thumbing through the Tanach (instead of cooking chicken..), and I came upon part of Zechariah, chapter 8. I found the words inspirational, and wanted to share them with you to savior (along with me) over Shabbat: But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as before - declares the L-rd of Hosts - but what it sows shall prosper: The vine shall produce its fruit, the ground shall produce its yield, and the skies shall provide their moisture. I will bestow all these things upon the remnant of this people. And just as you were a curse among the nations, O House of Judah and House of Israel, so, when I vindicate you, you shall become a blessing. Have no fear; take courage! Zechariah 8:11-13 May we merit those days soon... Shabbat Shalom to all, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/a656f9bb/attachment.html From creechmargie at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 18:01:36 2008 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:01:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject) Message-ID: <505222.98771.qm@web58507.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I really have enjoyed all the email about following G-d's Laws. Personally for me, the more I follow the more I know about who He is and the more I love Him. I can't imagine not celebrating His appointed times or following His Ways. Whether I'm required or not is not even a question with me. I just wish I was more like Him, but I know that when I fall He is always there to set my feet back on the path of righteousness. Thank you so much for all this email because I am still learning everyday. May you all have a wonderful Sabbath with Him. Margie --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/58bd9b39/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 8 18:42:37 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 00:42:37 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? DidSha'ulmisunderstand Tor... Message-ID: <020920080042.11301.47ACF6FC00020ECE00002C2522230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Okay man, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Shabbat Shalom brother. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey John - Yes, they would remain Gentiles, and in my hurry, I misrepresented myself a bit (gee, I wish THAT would have been the first time that it happened...). NOT all Gentiles were necessarily Pagan....but it seems from my readings and study that every society of that era had its series of G-d's, idols, etc. But, there probably were people then, like today, that believed in NOTHING...so they would be Gentiles who were NOT Pagan. They probably just didn't go around shouting about it too much. Their neighbors would have likely killed them..... Shabbat Shalom pal! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080209/d1ea8311/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 8 18:44:51 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 00:44:51 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ul misunderstand To... Message-ID: <020920080044.16076.47ACF782000BFE3200003ECC22230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Muddy Waters! I like his stuff too! ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hi Tammy & Kim - And while you're looking THAT up, make sure to take note of the number of Mitzvot that CANNOT be done until the Beit HaMikdash (Holy Temple) is rebuilt. Also, a number of the Mitzvot women are 'exempted' for performing are those that are 'time based' - which doesn't mean they can't do them..... Just muddying up the waters a bit more :-) Have a Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080209/f624c357/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Feb 8 19:05:00 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 20:05:00 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment?DidSha'ulmisunderstand To... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe that Hanoch, but sometimes from what I hear, I wonder???? Hey Dick - It was never anyone's plan (certainly not G-d's!) for everyone to become Jewish... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/e1b89183/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Feb 9 08:52:28 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:52:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Laws of Noah In-Reply-To: <020820080107.17019.47ABAB4B000940510000427B22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <020820080107.17019.47ABAB4B000940510000427B22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <2ABDC18C-6CC9-495C-8F17-1AAD8DF12047@earthlink.net> My own approach is that the Torah, in principle, is for all humanity, and I do not view the various "commandments" so much as "laws" to follow as teachings to learn from. That is the meaning of the term Torah in the first place. It is also used for "rain," the idea of something falling and offering life and nurture. So, if I read in the Torah that I should put a railing on my flat roof so folks don't fall off I would never ask--hmm, as a "Gentile" do I need to do that?? Or if I think I am of the "lost tribes," is that "required" of me. You see the point. The verse that really speaks of what is REQUIRED of Israel does not specify "laws," right, but attitudes--Micah 6:8. Hosea and Amos say the same. I like the approach of asking not "what must I do," but "what can I do," as recently expressed here. Psalm 119 is a good place in which to ground oneself, and Isa 56 is a prophetic echo of the same approach. I think the matter of Jews, Israelites, Lost Tribes, Gentiles, and pagans is a way to sort through the stages of history and revelation, from Enoch to Noah to Abraham to Moses through the various forms of Judaism and Christianity (and Islam) that finally developed. We are not "one people," but we should never forget that God made of "one blood" all the nations of the earth, and this too is part of Torah. Also, the "call" and "choseness" of Israel is strategic, for a mission, it is not, so far as I can tell, as some forms of Judaism assert, based on some kind of superior or more pure "soul." In other words, the descendants of Abraham through Isaac are designated to do a job--to carry out a mission. The Torah makes clear this is no mark of superiority, but rather a call or duty. Not sure if that helps, but it is my take on these things... James On Feb 7, 2008, at 8:07 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: > James, > In your opinion, am I correct in my understanding that if you feel > you are from the "Lost Tribes," you then should follow the 613 laws > of the Torah, or is this specific to a certain group or tribe of > Israelites? > > > > > > This does not answer all the questions, such as to what extent > should non-Israelites observe Torah commands that are not > universally given to all nations? But perhaps a better question than > "What is one obligated to do" might be, "What can one do" to draw > closer to God and the Ways of righteousness and justice. It seems > the two great commandments: love God and love one's fellow, take us > a long way in that area. > > I am of the view that the Sabbath is as universal as humankind, but > I realize it is not included by the rabbis, but neither are other > laws. I once asked Rabbi Katz, who was strongly advocating the > "Seven" and no more for Gentiles, facetiously of course, if it was > then okay for us Gentiles to "mislead the blind on the way," a > commandment given only to Israel in the Torah. I think he got the > point. > > Hope this helps the discussion. > > James > _______________________________________________ From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sat Feb 9 09:53:58 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:53:58 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Laws of Noah Message-ID: James, Your two posts on Laws of Noah, I thinks puts things into the correct perspective, and this last one I think gets to the core of what mankind's response ought to be in the light of Yahovah's instructions in how we should live before Him and mankind. And this point: I like the approach of asking not "what must I do," but "what can I do," as recently expressed here. Psalm 119 is a good place in which to ground oneself, and Isa 56 is a prophetic echo of the same approach. And so again, thanks for the posts CB **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080209/398a63d8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Laws of Noah Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:52:28 -0500 Size: 5809 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080209/398a63d8/attachment.mht From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Feb 9 13:54:43 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 13:54:43 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... In-Reply-To: References: <020720082259.17189.47AB8D6F0004F4700000432522230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> <1c8dbb6e0802072132i23b9ffe1n842e07c6c94fd4a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802091154m6cf1c1d9raeae9d84273e163e@mail.gmail.com> Yes, conversion. Writing in the middle of the night. Pretty funny!!! :) Kim On Feb 8, 2008 3:12 PM, Dick L wrote: > Excuse me Dear Kim. Was that meant to be conversion???? Even > conversation > would not be a short process around here either??? he he ! Loved it. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* kim alvarado > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Friday, February 08, 2008 12:32 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment? Did > Sha'ulmisunderstand Torah - orhasChristiantymisunderstoo... > > These 7 laws were definitely known in the 1st century. It is my > understanding that they were the minimum requirements a non-Jew needed to > follow to be able to associate with the Jews. It is my theory (for what it > is worth) is that when Acts was written, Paul was expecting the end at any > time. His teaching were based on that. Perhaps he recognized that > conversation was not a short process (as it is not today). There was a > sense of urgency. He wanted the new believers to be able to associate and > learn from the Jews before the kingdom of heaven arrived. > > I also believe that Paul's message has been distorted and misinterpreted. > > Kim > > On Feb 7, 2008 4:59 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: > > > John, > > > > These "Seven Laws" [Sheva Mitzvot] are said to be derived from Genesis > > 9:1-17. Their real origin is in the Tosefta (Sanhedrin 9:4). This work was > > compiled to parallel and supplement the Mishnah. They also appear in the > > Gemara, which was added to the Mishnah to form the Talmud. > > > > So apparently we are back to the interpretation of Scripture by man > > again. Interesting conundrum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080209/c79e513a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Feb 9 20:18:25 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 21:18:25 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow which commandment?DidSha'ulmisunderstand To... Message-ID: Hey Dick - Shavua tov/Good week! Now you're raised my curiosity - whom do you think are trying, or would like to make everyone Jewish? To me, that is such an absurd concept - and totally goes against any of the (few) Jewish people I've ever spoken to, who are involved in this 'Torah faith' group of folks (like us, on this list). Now, I know far from every Jew in the U.S. - if the truth be told, I don't even know everyone who is Jewish in the apartment building I live in! :-) Maybe I'm being a bit naive here, but I don't think so....looking forward to hearing from you! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080209/90a683f4/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Feb 9 21:45:25 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 22:45:25 EST Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject) Message-ID: Hi Margie - A belated welcome! And please remember, we are ALL learning every day, or at least, trying to. :-) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080209/51a29af5/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sat Feb 9 22:06:59 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 20:06:59 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Who are these? Message-ID: <200802100407.m1A46waL026089@mail2535.carrierzone.com> Hello ALL, At the end of my recent posting re "Sha'ul, Torah, 7 Laws, Christians, & the heart," I mentioned: "As another parting "conundrum," and can of worms for another string to discuss is, "a people taken out for His name," and "all Gentiles upon whom my name is called," (Acts. 15: 15,17). Who are these people, and what is the "name" that is upon these people? What is the name that "called upon them?" What does this name make them? If any one has any ideas on this please let us know. Steve From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Feb 10 00:47:08 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 00:47:08 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH, TRIBERS? Message-ID: <002a01c86bb0$c1b6d4e0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Friends, I hope everyone had a Shabbat full of blessings and rejuvenation. After being off line for the past week, I have been trying to catch up on all the emails. The following post is an abbreviated summary of some of what I have gleaned from the many posts on this subject, along with a couple of thoughts that I have added from my own perspective at the end. I have really been blessed this evening by all that all of you shared, and would have liked to have responded to each of the emails, but that would be time prohibitive. So instead, I thought it might be interesting to find a thought or two from each person on this subject and form a sort of 'composite.' I have cut and pasted some segments below. I think if you will take a look and briefly read over each person's response, you will, as I did come away with a perspective that although we may categorize ourselves differently, there is an amazing degree of "oneness," in scope and purpose, along with a great deal of genuine respect for one another's opinions. I hope I did not leave anyone out, as it was certainly not my intention. And if I misrepresented anything that anyone said or took it out of context, I apologize. Take a look and see what you think. Personally, I think this is what dialogue is all about! CLYDE - If you will permit me, I want to raise a ensign to my friend Ross Nichols who thank G-D makes no distinction nor any separation in the synagogue without walls. My sincere thanks and praise for the teaching of Ross who refuses to raise a wall between those of Judah, the ten lost tribes, and Gentile God-fearers who are being lead out of the Babylonian system. If the Torah is right for the Jews, and just as right for the Lost Tribes, and if we all believe that our G-D is one, and not two or three, then the Torah is right for the Gentile who fears G-D. TAMMY - CB! I love this discussion. No offense taken as I consider myself an ongoing student and certainly have plenty of room to learn. Thanks for all of the fantastic input. : ) I understand that as Gentiles we must at "least" follow the minimun laws of Noah. But according to what I have also read. Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of "the righteous among the gentiles". A non-Jew who keeps the Noahide Law in all its details is said to attain the same spiritual and moral level as Israel's own Kohen Gadol (high priest) and that a non-Jew who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a Righteous Gentile and has earned a place in the world to come. DICK - Love it as well !! I wanted to put this one in but I got lost in my mail. Acts 28:28 Salvation of G-d to the Gentile I can't help think that if everyone lived by the Jewish Laws & became Jews, there would be no need of a Special people for all would be one?? MARVIN - Without laboring the Gentile's (word) to death, I generally see two groups of people in the bible. After Abraham, Isaac, Jocab there are Israelites and there is everybody else.(Gentiles) I do not see / understand the description of a person as being a gentile pertaining to what they believe about God. Moses' father in law was a gentile and he had a relationship with God. The torah teaches us that God separated the Israelites form the 70 nations and gave them laws that would make them different / set apart. Although, I can believe that in the future we are all going to know God.. and we even see Gentile nations keeping the feast and going to Jerusalem 3 times a year, I'm not sure about everybody becoming Jews or Israel. In the Kingdom will their not be Israel / Judah rejoined and the 70 Gentile nations? STEVE- It seems that whoever or how many ever came up with the delineation of the 7 Laws were all Jews, the guardians of the Torah. Also, it seems that the 7 Laws are some very strong beginning frameworks on which to build good habits for individuals, and other laws for legislators of nations and leaders of congregations. "Spirit," intent, heart are necessary for the letter. Here is where the intent and the spirit of these laws will come in. Now, this will not cancel out any of the Laws, but as mentioned earlier, common sense, and the spirit of these 7 Laws will have to be considered as to applicability. Of course there will always be a delineation between Israel and the rest of God's children, this is what being a firstborn, being teachers and students, and time and space are about. Of course Jews will be Jews, Tribers will be belonging to their various tribes and will have their own customs and flavors, and peculiarities. Perhaps we need to learn form each other. Let's start with the letter, and apply with the spirit and intent of it." AMY - .as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right? What did Yeshua say about all of this? Or was it just Paul saying what should be done with the Gentiles? I thought Yeshua did not concern himself with the Gentiles...only the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"...Lots of questions, HANOCH - Unless I'm totally misunderstanding Amy's point, she is referring to those of the 'Lost Tribes' - Ephraim. I truly believe, and I've already said it on this list, (MY PERSONAL OPINION and understanding), that if someone believes themselves to be from the Tribes, then they DO need to begin observing the Torah. There is no way (at this time...) to prove that someone is from the Tribes, but if their HEART is pulling them to Torah, Israel and the support of the Jewish people, then as far as I am concerned - they are from the Tribes, period! KIM - I believe that I am a Lost Triber; therefore, I believe I should follow all the commandments that apply to women and non-priests in the Torah. This will not be something I can do overnight. It is a journey on which HaShem is taking me. HANOCH - I used to wonder if I was not involved in trying to live a Jewish lifestyle, WHAT values would I be looking to impart on my daughters. Excluding the Torah, what value system would I hope to see them live their lives by? And James is totally right - some of it is just good, common sense. If you can focus your energy and learning to draw closer to God and the Ways of righteousness and justice as James said, you can't really go wrong. JAMES - The essential idea then is a simple one. God made a specific covenant with all Israel at Sinai with obligations, standards, rituals, customs, and teachings specific to them as a people. Of course this covenant would include ALL the basic moral laws that are applicable to human beings as a whole, but the Torah in its completeness includes observances and teachings that are also specific to Israel and were never demanded of the nations. This is not to say such laws are not good, but that the laws put upon the nations, upon all humanity, are the minimum. The rabbis actually differ a bit on the precise enumeration of the "seven," and some lists include "honor your parents" or other additions. Still, the point they are trying to make is the same--all nations can turn to the God of Israel and live an ethical life before Him without converting or becoming part of Israel. One might call this "Torah faith for all nations." My own approach is that the Torah, in principle, is for all humanity, and I do not view the various "commandments" so much as "laws" to follow as teachings to learn from. That is the meaning of the term Torah in the first place. It is also used for "rain," the idea of something falling and offering life and nurture. I like the approach of asking not "what must I do," but "what can I do," as recently expressed here. Psalm 119 is a good place in which to ground oneself, and Isa 56 is a prophetic echo of the same approach. MARGIE - Personally for me, the more I follow the more I know about who He is and the more I love Him. I can't imagine not celebrating His appointed times or following His Ways. Whether I'm required or not is not even a question with me. I just wish I was more like Him, but I know that when I fall He is always there to set my feet back on the path of righteousness. ******************************************** And after all this, and much more if you take a look at the rich content of all your emails, there is not much more to add, so my comments will be brief and will reiterate some of what has already been said. My personal experience since first being introduced to the path of Torah and the One G-d of Israel nearly two decades ago has in many ways paralleled that of many of you. My attitude then is the same that it is now; and that is; it is not "what do I have to do," but rather "what do I get to do?" As one of my favorite scriptures says, "Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy Torah" (Psalm 119:8). No matter where we find ourselves, it is all about learning and living and doing G-d's Torah in the place and to the degree in which we find ourselves. So much is about kavanah (intent), the HEART! As Kim said, it is a journey, and one that takes a life-time.and in the end, HaShem will write His Word on our hearts and we will indeed all become One Heart! May that time come soon, and in our day! I hope this "composite overview" has been as helpful to you to read as it has been for me to put together. Comments would be welcome. Many blessings and Shavua tov, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/87a6dce8/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Feb 10 06:35:11 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 07:35:11 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH, TRIBERS? Message-ID: Dear Betty: I printed out your recap from the dialogues to remind myself when all is said and done we are truly of one blood, one heart, and all worshiping the ONE G-D. I don't know how to explain it, but those on the lists even though separated geographically hundreds or even thousands of miles, I have grown to love and care for. Is it because we all have the Spirit of the living G-D and his love is being imparted into all of our hearts? There are some things that get above our ability to understand in our intellect. Perhaps when we turn from former ways to the only true G-D then his love is truly spread abroad in our hearts. May G-D bless all who call upon his name. CB **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/d5228a1c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Betty Givin" Subject: [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH, TRIBERS? Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 00:47:08 -0600 Size: 43549 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/d5228a1c/attachment.mht From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 10 06:55:09 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 07:55:09 EST Subject: [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH, TRIBERS? Message-ID: Hi Betty - Glad to 'see you!' Great overview....I think it captures the general essence of points that were being made through this part of the discussion; which is my way of saying - no, we haven't said all there has to be said about this... LOL I'd love to write more now, but it's off to work - and the first Sunday of the winter/spring semester....ughhhh.. Looking forward to having you back! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/01056084/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 10 06:58:07 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 07:58:07 EST Subject: [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH, TRIBERS? Message-ID: Hey Clyde, Beautifully said....and it is so true.... Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/1c1e34c4/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 10 07:12:14 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 08:12:14 EST Subject: [Dialogue] For 4 Adar 'I' 5768 Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim - Boker tov, I was thumbing through the Book of Psalms toward the end of Shabbat, and came across this: "Hear, O G-d, my cry. Attend to my prayer. >From the end of the earth I call to You, when my heart faints. Lead me onto the rock that towers over me. Please be my protector, a strong tower before the enemy. Let me dwell in Your tent forever. Let me seek refuge in the shadow of Your wings, Selah. O You, G-d, hear my vows. Give those who fear Your name their heritage." Psalm 61:2-6 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/83417b60/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Feb 10 08:05:32 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:05:32 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who are these? Message-ID: Hi Steve: I will offer a few opinions for our consideration. Let's begin with your post: "a people taken out for His name," and "all Gentiles upon whom my name is called," (Acts. 15: 15,17). Who are these people, and what is the "name" that is upon these people? What is the name that "called upon them?" What does this name make them? I think we must first give credit to the Jews throughout the Diaspora in the Roman Empire, because as a light unto the nations, a good many Gentiles left their pagan ways and turned to the one true G-D of Israel. Some received circumcision, and the other rites which made them just as home-born Israelites. called proselytes Others accepted the one true G-D of Israel but stopped short of full conversion to Judaism. These Gentiles were called G-D fearers. I recall reading where a pillar was discovered outside of where a synagogue once stood. Out of 150 names on the pillar 52 were Gentile G-D fearers. From a historical perspective irrespectively of what each of us might believe, it was these G-D fearers that attended the synagogues throughout the Roman Empire that became the core of Gentile believers in the gospel of G-D. A pagan and worshipper of many gods, would not have had the foggiest notion of who Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and his twelve sons were all about. These G-D fearers who attended the synagogues heard Moses read on each Sabbath. Because they had turned from pagan worship to the one true G-D his name was called upon them. Historically it was thought that the kingdom of G-D was near at hand, and the teaching was a short work to be accomplished and then the kingdom of G-D would be established upon the earth. Since G-D is one, and they thought that redemption of the world was at hand, then all that call upon the name of G-D would reign in the soon coming kingdom. Since G-D is the designer of creation, then ethnicity since G-D is the author of ethnicity, then there should be no discrimination between Jew or Greek male or female that call upon the name of G-D. However, to call upon the name of G-D without full obedience to G-D's covenantal instruction of what constitutes righteousness cannot be separated. I will paste in here from a post by James that I think makes the point of non-discrimination between all that call upon the name of G-D. I think the matter of Jews, Israelites, Lost Tribes, Gentiles, and pagans is a way to sort through the stages of history and revelation, from Enoch to Noah to Abraham to Moses through the various forms of Judaism and Christianity (and Islam) that finally developed. We are not "one people," but we should never forget that God made of "one blood" all the nations of the earth, and this too is part of Torah. Also, the "call" and "choseness" of Israel is strategic, for a mission, it is not, so far as I can tell, as some forms of Judaism assert, based on some kind of superior or more pure "soul." In other words, the descendants of Abraham through Isaac are designated to do a job--to carry out a mission. The Torah makes clear this is no mark of superiority, but rather a call or duty. I have set in bold since I think the words capture - regardless of race or gender all that call upon the name of G-D receive equally his love, and equally we should love one another. That's a little bit of my own opinions - now I would like to hear the opinions of others. CB **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/cf08be31/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Mathe Subject: [Dialogue] Who are these? Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 20:06:59 -0800 Size: 3056 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/cf08be31/attachment.mht From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 10 08:18:49 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:18:49 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Reading the Prophet Isaiah Message-ID: Boker tov L'Kulchem (Good Morning Everyone)! Well, just before I headed out the door to work, I thought I'd read something in the Tanach, which would (hopefully...) inspire me through what I KNOW will be a long, tough day. I opened the Tanach at random, toward the back half...and I wound up with the Prophet Isaiah. And I read this one Pasuk (verse)...again, no 'PR' - just opened the Tanach, and my eyes went to this one verse... "For He has said: 'It is too little that you should be My servant In that I raise up the tribes of Jacob and restore the survivors of Israel I will also make you a light (ie: agent of good fortune) of nations, That my salvation may reach the ends of the earth. Isaiah 49:6 There no longer are any coincidences, are there...? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/6c07ea14/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Feb 10 08:51:33 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:51:33 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH, TRIBERS? In-Reply-To: <002a01c86bb0$c1b6d4e0$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <002a01c86bb0$c1b6d4e0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: Dear Betty, Thank you for this. I was so far behind in reading the emails, it seemed an overwhelming task. You summarized them so beautifully. I feel encouraged and strengthened by these words from everyone. Thank you all. For me, personally, the words James spoke concerning the root meaning of "Torah" were such a G-dsend. I had never seen it before - or at least if I had, the implications didn't occurr to me at the time. I'm going to start a new thread just to cover (in as much detail as I can find) this root meaning of "Torah," in the sincere hope that others will be as blessed as I was in its discovery. Love, Pat From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 00:47:08 -0600Subject: [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH, TRIBERS? Dear Friends, I hope everyone had a Shabbat full of blessings and rejuvenation. After being off line for the past week, I have been trying to catch up on all the emails. The following post is an abbreviated summary of some of what I have gleaned from the many posts on this subject, along with a couple of thoughts that I have added from my own perspective at the end. I have really been blessed this evening by all that all of you shared, and would have liked to have responded to each of the emails, but that would be time prohibitive. So instead, I thought it might be interesting to find a thought or two from each person on this subject and form a sort of ?composite.? I have cut and pasted some segments below. I think if you will take a look and briefly read over each person?s response, you will, as I did come away with a perspective that although we may categorize ourselves differently, there is an amazing degree of ?oneness,? in scope and purpose, along with a great deal of genuine respect for one another?s opinions. I hope I did not leave anyone out, as it was certainly not my intention. And if I misrepresented anything that anyone said or took it out of context, I apologize. Take a look and see what you think. Personally, I think this is what dialogue is all about! CLYDE - If you will permit me, I want to raise a ensign to my friend Ross Nichols who thank G-D makes no distinction nor any separation in the synagogue without walls. My sincere thanks and praise for the teaching of Ross who refuses to raise a wall between those of Judah, the ten lost tribes, and Gentile God-fearers who are being lead out of the Babylonian system. If the Torah is right for the Jews, and just as right for the Lost Tribes, and if we all believe that our G-D is one, and not two or three, then the Torah is right for the Gentile who fears G-D. TAMMY - CB! I love this discussion. No offense taken as I consider myself an ongoing student and certainly have plenty of room to learn. Thanks for all of the fantastic input. : ) I understand that as Gentiles we must at "least" follow the minimun laws of Noah. But according to what I have also read. Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of "the righteous among the gentiles". A non-Jew who keeps the Noahide Law in all its details is said to attain the same spiritual and moral level as Israel's own Kohen Gadol (high priest) and that a non-Jew who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a Righteous Gentile and has earned a place in the world to come. DICK - Love it as well !! I wanted to put this one in but I got lost in my mail. Acts 28:28 Salvation of G-d to the Gentile I can't help think that if everyone lived by the Jewish Laws & became Jews, there would be no need of a Special people for all would be one?? MARVIN - Without laboring the Gentile?s (word) to death, I generally see two groups of people in the bible. After Abraham, Isaac, Jocab there are Israelites and there is everybody else.(Gentiles) I do not see / understand the description of a person as being a gentile pertaining to what they believe about God. Moses? father in law was a gentile and he had a relationship with God. The torah teaches us that God separated the Israelites form the 70 nations and gave them laws that would make them different / set apart. Although, I can believe that in the future we are all going to know God?? and we even see Gentile nations keeping the feast and going to Jerusalem 3 times a year, I?m not sure about everybody becoming Jews or Israel. In the Kingdom will their not be Israel / Judah rejoined and the 70 Gentile nations? STEVE- It seems that whoever or how many ever came up with the delineation of the 7 Laws were all Jews, the guardians of the Torah. Also, it seems that the 7 Laws are some very strong beginning frameworks on which to build good habits for individuals, and other laws for legislators of nations and leaders of congregations. "Spirit," intent, heart are necessary for the letter. Here is where the intent and the spirit of these laws will come in. Now, this will not cancel out any of the Laws, but as mentioned earlier, common sense, and the spirit of these 7 Laws will have to be considered as to applicability. Of course there will always be a delineation between Israel and the rest of God's children, this is what being a firstborn, being teachers and students, and time and space are about. Of course Jews will be Jews, Tribers will be belonging to their various tribes and will have their own customs and flavors, and peculiarities. Perhaps we need to learn form each other. Let's start with the letter, and apply with the spirit and intent of it." AMY - ?as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right?What did Yeshua say about all of this? Or was it just Paul saying what should be done with the Gentiles? I thought Yeshua did not concern himself with the Gentiles...only the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"...Lots of questions, HANOCH - Unless I'm totally misunderstanding Amy's point, she is referring to those of the 'Lost Tribes' - Ephraim. I truly believe, and I've already said it on this list, (MY PERSONAL OPINION and understanding), that if someone believes themselves to be from the Tribes, then they DO need to begin observing the Torah. There is no way (at this time...) to prove that someone is from the Tribes, but if their HEART is pulling them to Torah, Israel and the support of the Jewish people, then as far as I am concerned - they are from the Tribes, period! KIM - I believe that I am a Lost Triber; therefore, I believe I should follow all the commandments that apply to women and non-priests in the Torah. This will not be something I can do overnight. It is a journey on which HaShem is taking me. HANOCH ? I used to wonder if I was not involved in trying to live a Jewish lifestyle, WHAT values would I be looking to impart on my daughters. Excluding the Torah, what value system would I hope to see them live their lives by? And James is totally right - some of it is just good, common sense. If you can focus your energy and learning to draw closer to God and the Ways of righteousness and justice as James said, you can't really go wrong. JAMES ? The essential idea then is a simple one. God made a specific covenant with all Israel at Sinai with obligations, standards, rituals, customs, and teachings specific to them as a people. Of course this covenant would include ALL the basic moral laws that are applicable to human beings as a whole, but the Torah in its completeness includes observances and teachings that are also specific to Israel and were never demanded of the nations. This is not to say such laws are not good, but that the laws put upon the nations, upon all humanity, are the minimum. The rabbis actually differ a bit on the precise enumeration of the "seven," and some lists include "honor your parents" or other additions. Still, the point they are trying to make is the same--all nations can turn to the God of Israel and live an ethical life before Him without converting or becoming part of Israel. One might call this "Torah faith for all nations." My own approach is that the Torah, in principle, is for all humanity, and I do not view the various "commandments" so much as "laws" to follow as teachings to learn from. That is the meaning of the term Torah in the first place. It is also used for "rain," the idea of something falling and offering life and nurture. I like the approach of asking not "what must I do," but "what can I do," as recently expressed here. Psalm 119 is a good place in which to ground oneself, and Isa 56 is a prophetic echo of the same approach. MARGIE - Personally for me, the more I follow the more I know about who He is and the more I love Him. I can't imagine not celebrating His appointed times or following His Ways. Whether I'm required or not is not even a question with me. I just wish I was more like Him, but I know that when I fall He is always there to set my feet back on the path of righteousness. ******************************************** And after all this, and much more if you take a look at the rich content of all your emails, there is not much more to add, so my comments will be brief and will reiterate some of what has already been said. My personal experience since first being introduced to the path of Torah and the One G-d of Israel nearly two decades ago has in many ways paralleled that of many of you. My attitude then is the same that it is now; and that is; it is not ?what do I have to do,? but rather ?what do I get to do?? As one of my favorite scriptures says, ?Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy Torah? (Psalm 119:8). No matter where we find ourselves, it is all about learning and living and doing G-d?s Torah in the place and to the degree in which we find ourselves. So much is about kavanah (intent), the HEART! As Kim said, it is a journey, and one that takes a life-time?and in the end, HaShem will write His Word on our hearts and we will indeed all become One Heart! May that time come soon, and in our day! I hope this ?composite overview? has been as helpful to you to read as it has been for me to put together. Comments would be welcome. Many blessings and Shavua tov, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/f67d2169/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sun Feb 10 13:14:52 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:14:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who just follow whichcommandment?DidSha'ulmisunderstand To... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95BAADDA363F44B19869D70937782170@DickLPC> I never said someone was trying to make them Jewish. You must admit that its mentioned alot about wanting to live by the Jewish Law here. By no means is any one pushing any one to do anything or believe anyone. I just made a casual statement which you took wrong, I think ???? I have heard from some peoples around here who misinterpret the Bible thinking they have to do some things or not do some things. Even if I've asked why, they will not discuss it. One even died. ... Hey Dick - Shavua tov/Good week! Now you're raised my curiosity - whom do you think are trying, or would like to make everyone Jewish? To me, that is such an absurd concept - and totally goes against any of the (few) Jewish people I've ever spoken to, who are involved in this 'Torah faith' group of folks (like us, on this list). Now, I know far from every Jew in the U.S. - if the truth be told, I don't even know everyone who is Jewish in the apartment building I live in! :-) Maybe I'm being a bit naive here, but I don't think so....looking forward to hearing from you! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/73b2a156/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sun Feb 10 13:38:06 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:38:06 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who are these? In-Reply-To: <200802100407.m1A46waL026089@mail2535.carrierzone.com> References: <200802100407.m1A46waL026089@mail2535.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <376EA7CC92694C1F95FC08C9942A1BF5@DickLPC> Amos 9: 11-12 is another one. Subject: Who are these? > > Hello ALL, > > At the end of my recent posting re "Sha'ul, Torah, 7 Laws, > Christians, & the heart," I mentioned: "As another parting > "conundrum," and can of worms for another string to discuss is, "a > people taken out for His name," and "all Gentiles upon whom my name > is called," (Acts. 15: 15,17). Who are these people, and what is the > "name" that is upon these people? What is the name that "called upon > them?" What does this name make them? > If any one has any ideas on this please let us know. > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Feb 10 14:12:48 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:12:48 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Reading the Prophet Isaiah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200802102012.m1AKClTa027916@mail136c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/3cf71e01/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 10 18:13:00 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:13:00 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who are these? Message-ID: <021120080013.3096.47AF930A000E3B7F00000C1822218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> My read is those of Judah's enemies that finally recognize G-d (which means recognizing his chosen people as well) and those of the rest of the nations that do the same. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Dick L" : -------------- > Amos 9: 11-12 is another one. > > Subject: Who are these? > > > > > > Hello ALL, > > > > At the end of my recent posting re "Sha'ul, Torah, 7 Laws, > > Christians, & the heart," I mentioned: "As another parting > > "conundrum," and can of worms for another string to discuss is, "a > > people taken out for His name," and "all Gentiles upon whom my name > > is called," (Acts. 15: 15,17). Who are these people, and what is the > > "name" that is upon these people? What is the name that "called upon > > them?" What does this name make them? > > If any one has any ideas on this please let us know. > > > > Steve > > > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/986e6ef2/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 10 18:38:55 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:38:55 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] What To Do. Message-ID: <021120080038.9093.47AF991F000337C10000238522230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Margie, I just thought that you would be interested to know that I was invited to teach today at the Christian church I last attended. I taught straight from the Gospels and the Torah and it was well received. They are a small group but it was a start. Hang in there and wait on G-d, He will use you when the time is right. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/7f1714aa/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Feb 10 21:43:18 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:43:18 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Isaiah 49:6-7 - the "preserved" of Israel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003801c86c60$3de1d650$643c66c9@bettygivin> Great verse, Hanoch!!! Thanks for bringing it to our attention. I do hope it inspired you in your long day today. It certainly inspired me! It is my understanding that this portion of Isaiah, actually beginning in Isa.42:1 and going thru verse 13, is a part of the Servant Songs found in Isaiah which makes a very interesting study. In my Jerusalem Bible, verse 6 reads, "And he said, it is too slight a thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Ya'aqov, and to restore the preserved of Yisrael. If my memory serves me correctly, I think that this could be actually be translated the "preservers," or the guarded ones of Nazareth; the "branch" of Israel. This is interesting because "netzerim" means branches in the Hebrew and is associated with "Christians." So who are the "preservers of Israel" and why do they need to be restored? Are they the followers of the Nazarene (Yeshua) who have been assimilated into the churches and are being restored now, in our very day, with many of us of Joseph among them? I think it must have been James who first pointed this out to me some time ago, along with the idea that Christianity is pretty much a "watered down" version of the Torah; and although it is corrupt with many false teachings, it has helped not only to keep the basic idea of the G-d of Israel alive, but has been very implemental in spreading it to the uttermost corners of the earth. This is certainly not to downplay the role of Judah, the guardian of the Torah and the light to the Nations. But the Christians, perhaps unknowingly, have actually partnered with Judah in planting the seeds for the final restoration. Just a few thoughts.No coincidences, at least not in my mind. B'Ahavah Yehuda v'Yisrael, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:19 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Reading the Prophet Isaiah Boker tov L'Kulchem (Good Morning Everyone)! Well, just before I headed out the door to work, I thought I'd read something in the Tanach, which would (hopefully...) inspire me through what I KNOW will be a long, tough day. I opened the Tanach at random, toward the back half...and I wound up with the Prophet Isaiah. And I read this one Pasuk (verse)...again, no 'PR' - just opened the Tanach, and my eyes went to this one verse... "For He has said: 'It is too little that you should be My servant In that I raise up the tribes of Jacob and restore the survivors of Israel I will also make you a light (ie: agent of good fortune) of nations, That my salvation may reach the ends of the earth. Isaiah 49:6 There no longer are any coincidences, are there...? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/731b00bf/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Feb 10 22:32:22 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:32:22 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH, TRIBERS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005401c86c67$18d913d0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thanks Hanoch, glad to be back! I tried to capture the general essence of some of the points made thus far and am glad it was of value. Of course the "general essence" is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this subject. I think Clyde put it well when he pointed out (thank-you, Clyde) that although we are geographically separated, (and literally scattered in all directions) we are of one blood, one heart, One G-d. I agree, there is a bond developing between us, and I think it is because we are seeking G-d.and He is listening in and blessing us in spite of the fact that we could be likened to airplanes (as Dave once said) all taking off in different directions, but bound for the same place..I love it! We are actually fulfilling the ancient prophecy of Hosea 14:2-3 when in the last days, we are instructed to "take with you words and turn to HaShem."; and in the words of Malachi 3:16, "Then they who feared HaShem spoke to one another: and HaShem hearkened, and heard it; and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who feared HaShem and took heed of His Name." It almost seems like a "Light switch" has been turned on. Looking forward to more good dialogue! Shavua tov on this the second day of Sabbath, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 6:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH,TRIBERS? Hi Betty - Glad to 'see you!' Great overview....I think it captures the general essence of points that were being made through this part of the discussion; which is my way of saying - no, we haven't said all there has to be said about this... LOL I'd love to write more now, but it's off to work - and the first Sunday of the winter/spring semester....ughhhh.. Looking forward to having you back! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/7441054e/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Feb 10 22:51:31 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:51:31 -0600 Subject: Pat [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH, TRIBERS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005f01c86c69$c5379820$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thanks, Pat. I love these teachings regarding the Hebrew root words. They bring about so much clarity to the true meaning of words and concepts that can easily pass right by us. Looking forward to your new thread regarding the root meaning of 'Torah." Love and Blessings on this 2nd day of Sabbath, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:52 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH,TRIBERS? Dear Betty, Thank you for this. I was so far behind in reading the emails, it seemed an overwhelming task. You summarized them so beautifully. I feel encouraged and strengthened by these words from everyone. Thank you all. For me, personally, the words James spoke concerning the root meaning of "Torah" were such a G-dsend. I had never seen it before - or at least if I had, the implications didn't occurr to me at the time. I'm going to start a new thread just to cover (in as much detail as I can find) this root meaning of "Torah," in the sincere hope that others will be as blessed as I was in its discovery. Love, Pat _____ From: bkgivin at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 00:47:08 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] DISCUSSION OVERVIEW: JEWS, GENTILES, B'NAI NOACH, TRIBERS? Dear Friends, I hope everyone had a Shabbat full of blessings and rejuvenation. After being off line for the past week, I have been trying to catch up on all the emails. The following post is an abbreviated summary of some of what I have gleaned from the many posts on this subject, along with a couple of thoughts that I have added from my own perspective at the end. I have really been blessed this evening by all that all of you shared, and would have liked to have responded to each of the emails, but that would be time prohibitive. So instead, I thought it might be interesting to find a thought or two from each person on this subject and form a sort of 'composite.' I have cut and pasted some segments below. I think if you will take a look and briefly read over each person's response, you will, as I did come away with a perspective that although we may categorize ourselves differently, there is an amazing degree of "oneness," in scope and purpose, along with a great deal of genuine respect for one another's opinions. I hope I did not leave anyone out, as it was certainly not my intention. And if I misrepresented anything that anyone said or took it out of context, I apologize. Take a look and see what you think. Personally, I think this is what dialogue is all about! CLYDE - If you will permit me, I want to raise a ensign to my friend Ross Nichols who thank G-D makes no distinction nor any separation in the synagogue without walls. My sincere thanks and praise for the teaching of Ross who refuses to raise a wall between those of Judah, the ten lost tribes, and Gentile God-fearers who are being lead out of the Babylonian system. If the Torah is right for the Jews, and just as right for the Lost Tribes, and if we all believe that our G-D is one, and not two or three, then the Torah is right for the Gentile who fears G-D. TAMMY - CB! I love this discussion. No offense taken as I consider myself an ongoing student and certainly have plenty of room to learn. Thanks for all of the fantastic input. : ) I understand that as Gentiles we must at "least" follow the minimun laws of Noah. But according to what I have also read. Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of "the righteous among the gentiles". A non-Jew who keeps the Noahide Law in all its details is said to attain the same spiritual and moral level as Israel's own Kohen Gadol (high priest) and that a non-Jew who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a Righteous Gentile and has earned a place in the world to come. DICK - Love it as well !! I wanted to put this one in but I got lost in my mail. Acts 28:28 Salvation of G-d to the Gentile I can't help think that if everyone lived by the Jewish Laws & became Jews, there would be no need of a Special people for all would be one?? MARVIN - Without laboring the Gentile's (word) to death, I generally see two groups of people in the bible. After Abraham, Isaac, Jocab there are Israelites and there is everybody else.(Gentiles) I do not see / understand the description of a person as being a gentile pertaining to what they believe about God. Moses' father in law was a gentile and he had a relationship with God. The torah teaches us that God separated the Israelites form the 70 nations and gave them laws that would make them different / set apart. Although, I can believe that in the future we are all going to know God.. and we even see Gentile nations keeping the feast and going to Jerusalem 3 times a year, I'm not sure about everybody becoming Jews or Israel. In the Kingdom will their not be Israel / Judah rejoined and the 70 Gentile nations? STEVE- It seems that whoever or how many ever came up with the delineation of the 7 Laws were all Jews, the guardians of the Torah. Also, it seems that the 7 Laws are some very strong beginning frameworks on which to build good habits for individuals, and other laws for legislators of nations and leaders of congregations. "Spirit," intent, heart are necessary for the letter. Here is where the intent and the spirit of these laws will come in. Now, this will not cancel out any of the Laws, but as mentioned earlier, common sense, and the spirit of these 7 Laws will have to be considered as to applicability. Of course there will always be a delineation between Israel and the rest of God's children, this is what being a firstborn, being teachers and students, and time and space are about. Of course Jews will be Jews, Tribers will be belonging to their various tribes and will have their own customs and flavors, and peculiarities. Perhaps we need to learn form each other. Let's start with the letter, and apply with the spirit and intent of it." AMY - .as an Israelite, aren't we to obey all that G-d has given us...just as they said they would do at Har Sinai? And these Gentiles that Paul was referring to, were they not in fact true blue Gentiles and not from the tribes? Because if they were from the tribes, they would have the same laws as Judah, right? What did Yeshua say about all of this? Or was it just Paul saying what should be done with the Gentiles? I thought Yeshua did not concern himself with the Gentiles...only the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"...Lots of questions, HANOCH - Unless I'm totally misunderstanding Amy's point, she is referring to those of the 'Lost Tribes' - Ephraim. I truly believe, and I've already said it on this list, (MY PERSONAL OPINION and understanding), that if someone believes themselves to be from the Tribes, then they DO need to begin observing the Torah. There is no way (at this time...) to prove that someone is from the Tribes, but if their HEART is pulling them to Torah, Israel and the support of the Jewish people, then as far as I am concerned - they are from the Tribes, period! KIM - I believe that I am a Lost Triber; therefore, I believe I should follow all the commandments that apply to women and non-priests in the Torah. This will not be something I can do overnight. It is a journey on which HaShem is taking me. HANOCH - I used to wonder if I was not involved in trying to live a Jewish lifestyle, WHAT values would I be looking to impart on my daughters. Excluding the Torah, what value system would I hope to see them live their lives by? And James is totally right - some of it is just good, common sense. If you can focus your energy and learning to draw closer to God and the Ways of righteousness and justice as James said, you can't really go wrong. JAMES - The essential idea then is a simple one. God made a specific covenant with all Israel at Sinai with obligations, standards, rituals, customs, and teachings specific to them as a people. Of course this covenant would include ALL the basic moral laws that are applicable to human beings as a whole, but the Torah in its completeness includes observances and teachings that are also specific to Israel and were never demanded of the nations. This is not to say such laws are not good, but that the laws put upon the nations, upon all humanity, are the minimum. The rabbis actually differ a bit on the precise enumeration of the "seven," and some lists include "honor your parents" or other additions. Still, the point they are trying to make is the same--all nations can turn to the God of Israel and live an ethical life before Him without converting or becoming part of Israel. One might call this "Torah faith for all nations." My own approach is that the Torah, in principle, is for all humanity, and I do not view the various "commandments" so much as "laws" to follow as teachings to learn from. That is the meaning of the term Torah in the first place. It is also used for "rain," the idea of something falling and offering life and nurture. I like the approach of asking not "what must I do," but "what can I do," as recently expressed here. Psalm 119 is a good place in which to ground oneself, and Isa 56 is a prophetic echo of the same approach. MARGIE - Personally for me, the more I follow the more I know about who He is and the more I love Him. I can't imagine not celebrating His appointed times or following His Ways. Whether I'm required or not is not even a question with me. I just wish I was more like Him, but I know that when I fall He is always there to set my feet back on the path of righteousness. ******************************************** And after all this, and much more if you take a look at the rich content of all your emails, there is not much more to add, so my comments will be brief and will reiterate some of what has already been said. My personal experience since first being introduced to the path of Torah and the One G-d of Israel nearly two decades ago has in many ways paralleled that of many of you. My attitude then is the same that it is now; and that is; it is not "what do I have to do," but rather "what do I get to do?" As one of my favorite scriptures says, "Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy Torah" (Psalm 119:8). No matter where we find ourselves, it is all about learning and living and doing G-d's Torah in the place and to the degree in which we find ourselves. So much is about kavanah (intent), the HEART! As Kim said, it is a journey, and one that takes a life-time.and in the end, HaShem will write His Word on our hearts and we will indeed all become One Heart! May that time come soon, and in our day! I hope this "composite overview" has been as helpful to you to read as it has been for me to put together. Comments would be welcome. Many blessings and Shavua tov, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/feec13ae/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Feb 10 23:27:26 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:27:26 -0800 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who are these? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200802110527.m1B5RNB4009440@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080210/a341519d/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Feb 11 06:53:25 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:53:25 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who are these? Message-ID: Well Steve, your questions get right down to where the rubber meets the road. You wrote: Thanks for your considered reply with a lot of nice historical details. I am still not clear what "the name" was. I can see that the name "Israel," which contains G-d's name and the people whose forefather had this name conferred upon him. However, do I take that this name was "called upon" these G-d-fearers, or is it just a Hebraism, of the language that tells us that they were called to come to the Torah by G-d? To me to call upon the name of God is one thing. What is the term "upon whom the name of G-d is called" mean? Is it the same or is it something different? For that matter, what was the "gospel of G-d" that you refer to? Is it the Christian message to believe on Jesus and become a "Christian," or is it the call of G-d to the Torah? CB...This is just my opinion. I take when the name of G-D is named upon one of another nation [other than Israel] then they become His son and daughter and He becomes their Father. I personally have a problem with discrimination in any form. Whether race or gender - I believe we are all equal whether Israelite or non- Israelite, male or female. In a family there are different functions and roles - I believe I'm an Israelite although cannot prove it. But does the fact that one is Jewish or of one of the ten tribes, mean they are superior to one of another nation that calls upon the name of the only true G-D? I think not. I believe that anyone who calls upon the name of G-D, then G-D's name Yahovah means his name is named upon them, which means they belong to Yahovah as their Father. We might say they are Yahovah-ites, much like our children bear our names. In short I think for all that call upon the name of Yahovah, belong to him and He belongs to them - meaning they are now family. Now you ask - what is the gospel of G-D? I can only speak for myself. I'm messianic but by no means a Christian in the terms which that applies in mainstream Christianity. I follow Yeshua, and his G-D is my G-D and his Father is my Father. The good news is that all that call upon the name of Yahovah shall inherit the world to come in my view. I believe that redemption is the road back to paradise where the lamb will dwell with the wolf, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. How the redemption of Yahovah is worked out is an individual per-suit, and I for one leave that between Yahovah and all that call upon his name. My two cents for what it is worth CB **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/514176a9/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Mathe Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who are these? Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:27:26 -0800 Size: 12985 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/514176a9/attachment.mht From creechmargie at yahoo.com Mon Feb 11 07:32:03 2008 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:32:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] re: what to do Message-ID: <674677.70130.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com> John, Thank you for the words of encouragement. We have decided to stay so that we can continue the Bible study on Tuesday nights. I have been sending everyone articles that I have collected over the years that include tons of scripture. Somehow it is easier to see truth when you read it for yourself instead of hammering people with it (as I have done at times). Sometimes I get so excited about how AWESOME G-d's Ways are that I forget how I felt when I began to discover that maybe what I'd been taught all my life by the church and my parents wasn't necessarily so. What I loved about my experience is that G-d first showed me in His Word and then confirmed through people who were finding out the same thing. I am learning everyday and am still blown away by how perfect His entire Word is. I love this group and have already been moved to look at things anew. My prayer is that I stay teachable. Margie --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/3833a652/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 11 07:37:45 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:37:45 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Message-ID: Shalom, v'Boker tov! I 've been asking lots of questions over the last number of weeks. Now, I think it's YOUR turn - what is it that you folks have been wondering? It doesn't need to be a question for me, or for anyone in particular - but think, is there something you're looking to find out about? Ask away! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/eedae1a2/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 11 08:12:17 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:12:17 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Insanity in Sderot Message-ID: Shalom, I imagine that everyone is aware of the constant, unrelenting rocket attcks on Sderot, in southern Israel. Remember, this was supposedly the reason we destoyed all the Jewish towns and villages of Gush Katif, so the Islamo-Nazis would leave us alone, right? Below is a short story which really touched my heart. And to think, that Israel, with the 4th largest Air Force in the WORLD is restrained by their (Hellenistic) governement from responding....Please see a commentary below the article.... 'Mommy, Where Are My Legs?' Over this past Shabbat, 40 Qassams were fired from Northern Gaza toward Sderot. One of them landed near a house Saturday evening and severely injured two brothers, Osher Tuito, 8, and Rami Tuito, 19 The boys had just left the house to go buy their father a birthday present at a shop nearby. When the Code Red siren sounded, they only had 20 seconds to seek cover, not enough time to escape the incoming rocket which landed just 2 yards from them. One leg was immediately severed from the eight year old and the other one was crushed. His brother also suffered serious injuries to his legs. Both boys were evacuated to the Intensive Care unit of Barzilai hospital in Ashkelon, and later transferred by Tel Aviv's Sheba Medical Center where at this hour they are both undergoing extensive surgery. Avner Chen, a taxi driver that was passing through the area of the attack, told Ynet that "I heard the Color Red (siren) and I started running quickly from the car and layed down on the road and then I heard the very loud explosion right next to me. "I saw smoke and when I got up, I saw the boy and another youngster stretched on the road, one of them was very seriously wounded and it looked horrendous. I tried to stop the flow of blood and then the second one shouted 'help me, save me!' and I went to the second one and started to help him as well. At the same time, I called for Magen David Adom and the fire department on the radio. "It was a dreadful sight, one of the worst I've seen in my life," Chen said. Besides losing his leg, the younger child also had multiple chest wounds from the shrapnel. Later, he would ask his mother: "Mommy, where are my legs?" No one knows what the traumatized mother replied. Dr. Emil Chai, the hospital's deputy director-general, said that hospital staff are working hard to keep the second leg but it's also in very bad condition. In addition, the boy has a hole in his chest and his lungs are injured. The family's third son, 15, is being treated for trauma. Iris Twito, the boys' mother, said that Osher's dream was to become a soccer player. "How will he cope?" she wept. "How will he live without legs? He doesn't understand yet but he'll have to understand." Hospital staff workers at Barzilai Hospital where the boys were first taken are themselves still traumatized. Osher was still conscious when he arrived and reportedly was screaming, "Save me, save me". Nurses and doctors wept openly at his condition and his suffering. Fervent prayer is being made on behalf of this child and of his older brother all over Israel and abroad. The whole family needs our prayers. Here is an excerpt on Revenge that Rav Kahane wrote in his Magnum Opus: On Revenge Rabbi Meir Kahane Hy"D (Excerpted from OHR HARA'AYON [The Jewish Idea], Chapter12) Love has its place, as does hate. Peace has its place, as does war. Mercy has its place, as do cruelty and revenge. The Torah dons sackcloth over the distortion of the concept of revenge, which has become a target for the arrows of all Jewish Hellenists and worshippers of the alien culture, as if revenge were negative and evil by nature. The very opposite is true! No trait is more justified than revenge in the right time and place. G-d, Himself, is called NOKEM, Avenger: "The L-rd is a zealous and avenging G-d. The L-rd avenges and is full of wrath. He takes revenge on His adversaries and reserves wrath for His enemies" (Nachum 1:2). Our sages also said (Berachot 33a), "Shall we say that even revenge is great because it appears between two names of G-d? 'A G-d of vengeance is the L-rd' (Psalms 94:1). Rabbi Elazar responded, 'Indeed. Where revenge is necessary, it is a great thing.'" "It is a great thing!" It is a great mitzvah to take the revenge of the righteous and humble the evildoer. Whoever forgoes or rejects such an opportunity is cruel, and he denies belief in G-d. As King David said (Psalms 58:11-12): The righteous man shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. Men shall say, "Verily there is a reward for the righteous. Verily there is a G-d Who judges on earth." This is the secret of the greatness and holiness of revenge. It explains why it is a mitzvah and why the righteous are joyous when they see it carried out. When injustice is done on earth, when the kingdom of evil takes control and stifles the righteous and the innocent, it is only natural for a person to ask G-d, "Where are You?" In a period of Divine concealment, doubt and heresy burgeon forth, as it says (Deut. 31:17), "I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. Many evils and troubles shall come upon them, so that they will say on that day, 'Are not these evils come upon us because our G-d is not among us?'" The explanation of many of the commentaries, that this verse refers to Israel's repenting, does not seem valid, for if so, why does Scripture immediately reiterate, "I will surely hide My face" (Ibid., v. 18)? Rather, the explanation is that Israel will explain the lack of G-d's presence not as His intentionally hiding His face, but as testimony, so to speak, that G-d is incapable of helping or that He does not exist, G-d forbid. The evildoer's victory is the very worst profanation of G-d's name, because it implies the defeat or impotence of G-d. Of this, King David said (Psalms 44:23-25): Nay, but for Your sake are we killed all the day. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Awake! Why do You sleep, O L-rd? Arouse Yourself, cast us not off forever. Wherefore do You hide Your face...?" Thus, when G-d stops hiding His face and actually "awakens...like a mighty man recovering from wine, and smites His enemies" (Psalms 78:65-66), when He takes the revenge of His people and of Himself, He thereby sanctifies His name, proving to the world that Israel indeed has a G-d and that He lives and endures. The victory of injustice and wickedness is ostensible proof of G-d's absence from the world, and there is no greater profanation of G-d's name. By contrast,G-d's victory and revenge over His enemies, the evildoers, prove to the world that "verily there is a G-d Who judges on earth!" (Psalms 58:12). Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/8eca95ed/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Feb 11 08:32:01 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:32:01 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah means "rain." Message-ID: James mentioned in passing that the word, Torah, means rain. I had never realized this before - or if I had, it didn't sink in. The prime root of the word, "torah," is "yarah" (yud, reish, hay). Yarah means "to shoot, fire; to throw; to pour (water) - i.e. to rain." As I understand it, its secondary meaning is "to teach, instruct, direct, show, decide, enjoin, command." The root meaning of Torah can be to direct by shooting, as if firing at, or throwing towards a target, a fount of water. Rain is water being shot at a target. Some of the benefits of rain are sustenance, growth, cleansing, filling, and even dousing (which can put out "wild" fires). Torah Rain is aimed at specific targets to create specific results. For instance, there is Rain that falls only upon Levites that they may flourish. At other times the Rain falls only upon the women of the whole House of Israel, that they may grow and thrive. Yet another example is the Rainfall that benefits all of mankind. Those waters are directed to fall over vast areas of population to promote their health and welfare. Torah is the blessing of G-d rained down upon men. May our hearts become as great reservoirs holding the Torah/Rain of HaShem as it is directed toward each of us according to His Purpose. Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/d8aa687f/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Feb 11 08:40:02 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:40:02 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Torah means "rain." Message-ID: Great explanation Pat, thank you and James. This further identification of Torah was new to me, wow we continue to learn of the great mercy of Yahovah Elohim. Clyde **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/f4a96985/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: patricia robbins Subject: [Dialogue] Torah means "rain." Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:32:01 -0500 Size: 6270 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/f4a96985/attachment.mht From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Thu Feb 7 10:00:24 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:00:24 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Storms Message-ID: <159F5F2AD1DB41AABD4BECFC7109EDDF@DickLPC> Gene ! How are you and J David doing with all the storms in your area. Certainly thinking of you both. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080207/15d6cc28/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Feb 8 08:10:23 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:10:23 EST Subject: [Dialogue] What was the schoolmaster/guardian? Message-ID: Shalom: I have pasted in what a friend of mine has written. His name is Noel Rude - before retiring he was a professor of Languages at the University of Oregon. I would like to hear how some on the dialogue might view his take on the schoolmaster/guardian issue in Gal 3:24? Works of Torah By Noel Rude David Klinghoffer, in his Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History (Doubleday, 2005), lays down the gauntlet. Liberal Jews and Christians enter into ecumenical dialog and get absolutely nowhere. Why? Because they no longer believe in truth, says Klinghoffer. So Klinghoffer throws down the gauntlet to believers with the very nasty take on Jesus and Paul held by Jews. What is our response? We?d better be busy building our case, for the time may be upon us when believers from both houses of Israel can come together in disputation for the sake of the truth. So in what follows let me explore what I think is the Torah basis of one of Paul?s biggest beefs. Works of Torah Paul?s ?? ????? ????? ?by works of law? in Galatians ? if this were Hebrew I?d render it ???????? ??????? ?abodot Torah ? labors/services of Torah? and study it in light of Exodus. The story begins with Israel suffering under all manner of ???????, as in Exodus 1:14: ??????????? ????????????? ?????????? ?????? And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, ???????? ???????????? ??????????????? ?????????? in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: ??? ?????????????? ?????????????? ????? ?????????? all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour. This labor/service is mentioned several times and then there is the promise (Exodus 6): ? ????? ????? ?????????????????? 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, ????? ???? I am the LORD, ??????????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ????????? and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, ????????????? ??????? ??????????? and I will rid you out of their bondage, ???????????? ??????? ?????????? ???????? ????????????? ?????????? and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: ? ???????????? ??????? ??? ????? 7 And I will take you to me for a people, ?????????? ????? ????????? and I will be to you a God: ??????????? and ye shall know ???? ????? ???? ?????????? that I am the LORD your God, ?????????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ?????????? which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. Three times before Israel reaches Sinai the Passover is called a labor/service: Exodus 12:25???that ye shall keep this service [????????????? ????????????? ???????].? Exodus 12:26???What mean ye by this service [??? ????????? ??????? ?????]?? Exodus 13:5???that thou shalt keep this service in this month [??????????? ????????????? ??????? ????????? ??????].? So what was the Covenant? Renewed labor/service? No, just the opposite, as in what Judaism considers the first commandment (Ex 20:2): ??????? ?????? ????????? I am the LORD thy God, ?????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, ??????? ???????? out of the house of bondage. But after the sin of the golden calf (and there are good rabbinical sources for this, as well as Jeremiah 7:22-23), God burdened the people with the labors/services of the tabernacle. So in the rest of the book the word ??????? refers to this labor: ?All the vessels of the tabernacle in all the service thereof [????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????] ?? (Ex 27:19); ??the service of the tabernacle of the congregation [??????? ????? ??????] ?? (Ex 30:16); ?? to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service [?????????? ????? ?????? ?????????????????] ?? (Ex 35:21); ??for any work of the service [ ?????????????? ?????????] ?? (Ex 35:24); ?? to work all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary [???????? ????????????????? ??????? ?????????] ?? (Ex 36:1); ??for the work of the service of the sanctuary [?????????? ??????? ?????????] ?? (Ex 36:3); ?? the service of the work [????????? ???????????] ?? (Ex 36:5); ?? the service of the Levites [??????? ??????????] ?? (Ex 38:21); ??all the work of the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation [???????????? ????????? ????? ??????] ?? (Ex 39:32); ??all the vessels of the service of the tabernacle, for the tent of the congregation [??????????? ??????? ???????????? ??????? ??????]? (Ex 39:40); ? ? so the children of Israel made all the work [???? ?????? ?????? ?????????? ??? ??????????????]? (Ex 39:42). There is a tractate of the Talmud called ??????? ????? ?strange labor ??which refers to idolatry. ?Idle hands are the devil?s workshop,? the _old saying_ (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=274178) goes. And so Israel in the wilderness was put to work. And then when the Jews returned to build the Second Temple, the men of the great synagogue began adding more. Judah had endured cruel destruction and 70 years captivity for idolatry and Sabbath breaking?her leaders did not want a repeat, and so the admonition we read in the Mishna (Pirqe Abot 1:1): ?????? ?????? ??????? ???????? Moses received Torah from Sinai ?????????? ??????????? and transmitted it to Joshua ??????????? ?????????? and Joshua to elders ?????????? ??????????? and elders to prophets ??????????? ????????? ?????????? ??????? ??????????? and prophets transmitted it to the men of the Great Synagogue. ??? ??????? ????????? ???????? They said three things: ????? ????????? ???????? Be diligent in judgment, ???????????? ??????????? ???????? and establish many disciples, ???????? ????? ????????? and make a fence for the Torah. And so in addition to the liberty enshrined at Sinai there was at the time of Paul the Temple and its service plus the traditions (?fence for the Torah? ) of the elders. So what was bothering Paul? The Glorious Liberty of the Sons of God On the positive side I believe that Paul is refocusing us on the liberty conferred at Sinai. Jesus had prayed to the God of Sinai (Jn 17:17), ?[T]hy word is truth.? He said (Jn 8:32), ?And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.? He says ?free?. James calls the Ten Commandments ? the law of liberty? (James 2:12) and ?the perfect law of liberty? (James 1:25). Would Paul have agreed? Paul, in one of the most beautiful sections of Romans, speaks of deliverance from bondage to liberty?which I think we can see as a midrash on Exodus (Rom 8:21), ?Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.? The bondage of corruption is the sin that dwells within?the evil inclination. The liberty is in the word of God. In yesterday?s Torah reading (August 11, 2007) Moses consoles the people of the covenant (Deut 14:1), ?Ye are the children of the LORD your God ?? And who did Jesus say are the children of God? He said that (Luke 20:36) ?the children of God [are] the children of the resurrection?! And what do the rabbis say? They agree! The Mishna again (Pirqe Abot 2:15): ?? but know that the reward of the righteous is given in the time to come [????? ?????? ???????? ???? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ]? If you have access to the ArtScroll Mishna Series commentary you will see the many quotes from rabbinical and Talmudic sources to this effect, how that what Paul calls ?the first commandment with promise? (Eph 6:2) really contains the promise of eternal life. But it?s not a promise removed from this world?it?s here where the problems are and where our fellow man groans in darkness?hence the resurrection from the dead which is basic in the New Testament (Hebrew 6:2) as also in Judaism where it?s in the prayer book as the Rambam?s 13th principle of faith: ????? ???????? ??????????? ???????? I believe with complete faith ??????????? ????????? ????????? that there will be a resurrection of the dead ?????? ??????????? ?????? ????? ????????? in the time when a desire arises from the Creator, ??????????? ?????? let his name be blessed ???????????? ??????? and his memory exalted ????? ????????? ???????? forever and for all eternity. For Paul the Ten Commandments are spirit or spiritual (Rom 7:14), ?For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.? And again (Rom 8:4), ?That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.? That means we keep the law! The epistle of Galatians supposedly overthrows the law?but note how it concludes with its admonitions to bear the fruits of the spirit and not fall prey to the baser urges of the flesh. The big problem is internalizing Torah such that we bear its fruits. A man who observes Torah is ?like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season ?? (Ps 1:3)?it is in this light we should read Galatians 5. Thus when Paul writes (Gal 5:1), ?Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage?, I take him to mean we are free to bear the fruits of Torah and should not get caught up in substitute systems and efforts that divert us from that cause. So it?s liberty? but not liberty to sin (verse 13-23), ?For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this [Lev 19:18]; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. ? But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.? The law contains only three positive commands, ? the first commandment (1st according to the rabbis is [you?ve got to hear _David Fohrman_ (http://www.aishaudio.com/search/results.php?sid=c2jf6pcb&directspeaker=Fohrman,+Rabbi+David) on this], ?I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.? The New Testament agrees [Heb 11:6]: ?But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.?), ? the fourth commandment (remember the Sabbath), ? and the fifth commandment (honor your father and mother). The other seven commandments are negative?which is as it should be if this is a ?perfect law of liberty?. Why? Because God?s yoke is easy?just a few positive regulations (belief, Sabbath, honor) with mostly negative proscriptions (?thou shalt not?). Rome?s way and the Napoleonic code and the way of all statists is regulations piled upon regulations. In America, it used to be said, the law tells you what you cannot do, whereas in Europe you cannot do anything unless the law orders it. As Thomas Sowell brings out in his wonderful little book, The Quest for Cosmic Justice (Free Press, 2002), rule by judicial edict and labyrinthine regulation is bondage, but a few negative rules made public before the fact (written in stone) simple enough to be internalized by all (written in the heart) is the way of liberty. Thus the fruits of the spirit as regulated and restrained by in the Ten Commandments??against such there is no law.? We are free to bear fruit! Let me count the ways! A Schoolmaster, Not a Bribe Paul calls the ?law??by which he means the works/labors/service of Torah and by extension the fence around the Torah??our schoolmaster? (Gal 3:24, 25), ?????????? in Greek. A paedagog was not so much an advanced instructor as a family servant, one who takes the child to and from school, one responsible for the son?s safety, a baby sitter if you will. Elsewhere Paul contrasts this role with that of a teacher whom he likens to a father (1Cor 4:15), ? For though ye have ten thousand instructers [??????? ???????????] in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.? And so Paul?s ?works of law? (????? ?????/ ???????? ???????) neither were nor are something bad. People need structure and ritual and Paul is not saying that anyone should abandon such. Rather Luke records Paul saying (Acts 25:8): ?Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.? Note what it says of the celestial Jerusalem in exile (Rev 12:6): ?And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.? I find it interesting that 1260 years elapse from the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem (637)?the Muslim presence is still the thorn in Jerusalem?s side?to the founding of the World Zionist Organization by Theodor Herzl (1897). During that time ?Jerusalem? was nourished in the wilderness by rabbis, by prayers and rituals. The Sabbath, as they say, has kept the Jews more than the Jews have kept the Sabbath. Thus the nation was preserved?its integrity as a people, its language and Torah and traditions of interpretation. Much of this collapsed as Jews flocked to the secular atheism of the ?Enlightenment?, but it is still the regimen of the righteous as the tribe is being restored in the land (Gal 3:24-25): ?Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.? But the nation as a whole has yet to return to its God (Zech 12:10-14) and forsake the idols of agnosticism, secularism and socialism. It just may be that the fence for the Torah is too much for most people today. But rest assured the spirit is moving and the day is coming when, as it says (Hos 2:1-2[1:10-11]), ? ??????? ???????? ????????????????? ??????? ?????? 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, ?????? ?????????? ????? ???????? which cannot be measured nor numbered; ??????? ????????? ?????????????? ????? and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, ?????????? ?????? Ye are not my people, ??????? ????? there it shall be said unto them, ?????? ???????? Ye are the sons of the living God. ? ???????????? ????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? 11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, ???????? ????? ????? ????? and appoint themselves one head, ??????? ??????????? and they shall come up out of the land: ???? ?????? ???? ??????????? for great shall be the day of Jezreel. And so whereas the tabernacle and temple and sacrifices and fence for the Torah have served to preserve the nation, Israel as a whole has yet to repent and be forgiven. This, let me suggest, is what Paul means when he says (Gal 2:16), ?Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.? Israel needs national leadership that all can accept??one head??the real messiah as king who will take responsibility. To combat the fruits of the flesh that we too often bear there is no substitute for the law in our hearts. God accepts no bribe, as Moses says (Deut10:17), ?For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward?. That?s what Paul means when he says there is no justification ?? ????? ?????. There is no substitutionary sacrifice! Each man is responsible for his own sins and must repent and plead for mercy. Isn?t this the subject of the whole of Ezekiel 18? 1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. ? 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Thus there are no indulgences to purchase favor from the God of Israel. There is no tabernacle, no temple, no service, no ritual, no liturgy, no praise music, no circumcision, no sacred names, no buildings, no money, no special handshakes, no whoopin? and hollerin?, no burnt offerings, no trances, no sacred dance, no special offerings, no potlatches, no donations, no special words, no repetitious words, no vows of silence, no sacrifices, no dreams, no gifts, no prophecies, no moans, no groans, no prayers, no s?ances, no visitations, no incantations, no silence, no mystical experience, no emotion, no lack of emotion, no magic, no drug induced euphoria, no epiphany, no tattoo, no piercing, no rite of passage, no endurance test, no spiritual manifestation? NOTHING?nothing but the mercy of God and the Torah written in our hearts. No sacrifice?not even messiah?s death?directly expiates guilt. Only ?????????? t?shuvah (meaning a return to obedience) and the mercy of God. Are we the lost sheep of the house of Israel? Remember our forefathers (1Kings18:28), ?And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.? Israel has tried everything! Maybe it?s time for a little Jeremiah 31:33. **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/059fbcbb/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 8 08:51:58 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:51:58 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject) Message-ID: <020820081451.22546.47AC6C7F0002D3790000581222230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I'm forwarding this for Clyde. I'm not sure that the Hebrew fonts will come over. From:John C. CBrown4465 at aol.com [ Save Address ] To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:What was the schoolmaster/guardian? Date:Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:10:23 EST Shalom: I have pasted in what a friend of mine has written. His name is Noel Rude - before retiring he was a professor of Languages at the University of Oregon. I would like to hear how some on the dialogue might view his take on the schoolmaster/guardian issue in Gal 3:24? Works of Torah By Noel Rude David Klinghoffer, in his Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History (Doubleday, 2005), lays down the gauntlet. Liberal Jews and Christians enter into ecumenical dialog and get absolutely nowhere. Why? Because they no longer believe in truth, says Klinghoffer. So Klinghoffer throws down the gauntlet to believers with the very nasty take on Jesus and Paul held by Jews. What is our response? We???d better be busy building our case, for the time may be upon us when believers from both houses of Israel can come together in disputation for the sake of the truth. So in what follows let me explore what I think is the Torah basis of one of Paul???s biggest beefs. Works of Torah Paul???s ????? ??????????? ?????????? ???by works of law??? in Galatians ??? if this were Hebrew I???d render it ???????????????? ?????????????? ???abodot Torah ???labors/services of Torah??? and study it in light of Exodus. The story begins with Israel suffering under all manner of ??????????????, as in Exodus 1:14: ?????????????????????? ?????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ????????????And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, ???????????????? ????????????????? ?????? ?????????????????????????????? ????????????????????in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: ?????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ?????????? ????????????????????all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour. This labor/service is mentioned several times and then there is the promise (Exodus 6): ?? ?????????? ?????????? ????????? ??????????????????????????6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, ????? ???? ????????I am the LORD, ?????????????????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ??????????????????and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, ?????????????????????????? ?????????????? ??????????????????????and I will rid you out of their bondage, ???????????????????????? ?????????????? ???????????????????? ? ?????????????? ?????????????????????????? ????????????????????and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: ?? ???????????????????????? ?????????????? ?????? ??????????7 And I will take you to me for a people, ???????????????????? ?????????? ??????????????????and I will be to you a God: ??????????????????????and ye shall know ???????? ????? ???? ???????? ????????????????????that I am the LORD your God, ???????????????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ????????????????????which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. Three times before Israel reaches Sinai the Passover is called a labor/service: Exodus 12:25?????????that ye shall keep this service [?????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????? ??????????????].??? Exodus 12:26?????????What mean ye by this service [?????? ?????????????????? ?????????????? ??????????]???? Exodus 13:5?????????that thou shalt keep this service in this month [?????????????????????? ?????????????????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????? ????????????].??? So what was the Covenant? Renewed labor/service? No, just the opposite, as in what Judaism considers the first commandment (Ex 20:2): ????? ???????? ???????????? ?????????????????? I am the LORD thy God, ???????????? ?????????????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????? which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, ?????????????? ????????????????out of the house of bondage. But after the sin of the golden calf (and there are good rabbinical sources for this, as well as Jeremiah 7:22-23), God burdened the people with the labors/services of the tabernacle. So in the rest of the book the word ?????????????? refers to this labor: ???All the vessels of the tabernacle in all the service thereof [?????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????? ??????????????????] ?????? (Ex 27:19); ??????the service of the tabernacle of the congregation [?????????????? ?????????? ????????????] ?????? (Ex 30:16); ?????? to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service [???????????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ??????????????????????????????????] ?????? (Ex 35:21); ??????for any work of the service [???????????????????????????? ??????????????????] ?????? (Ex 35:24); ?????? to work all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary [???????????????? ?????????????????????????????????? ?????????????? ??????????????????] ?????? (Ex 36: 1); ??????for the work of the service of the sanctuary [???????????????????? ?????????????? ??????????????????] ?????? (Ex 36:3); ??????the service of the work [?????????????????? ??????????????????????] ?????? (Ex 36:5); ??????the service of the Levites [?????????????? ????????????????????] ?????? (Ex 38:21); ??????all the work of the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation [???????????????????????? ?????????????????? ?????????? ????????????] ?????? (Ex 39:32); ??????all the vessels of the service of the tabernacle, for the tent of the congregation [?????????????????????? ?????????????? ???????????????????????? ?????????????? ????????????]??? (Ex 39:40); ??? ??? so the children of Israel made all the work [???????? ???????????? ??????? ???? ???????????????????? ?????? ????????????????????????????]??? (Ex 39:42). There is a tractate of the Talmud called ?????????????? ?????????? ???strange labor??????which refers to idolatry. ???Idle hands are the devil???s workshop,??? the old saying goes. And so Israel in the wilderness was put to work. And then when the Jews returned to build the Second Temple, the men of the great synagogue began adding more. Judah had endured cruel destruction and 70 years captivity for idolatry and Sabbath breaking???her leaders did not want a repeat, and so the admonition we read in the Mishna (Pirqe Abot 1:1): ???????????? ???????????? ?????????????? ??????????? ????Moses received Torah from Sinai ???????????????????? ??????????????????????and transmitted it to Joshua ?????????????????????? ????????????? ??????and Joshua to elders ????????????? ?????? ????? ????????????????and elders to prophets ????? ???????????????? ?????????????????? ????????? ?????????? ????? ???????? ??????????????????????and prophets transmitted it to the men of the Great Synagogue. ?????? ?????????????? ?????????????????? ????????????????They said three things: ?????????? ??????????? ?????? ????????????????Be diligent in judgment, ???????????????????????? ?????????????????????? ????????????????and establish many disciples, ???????????????? ?????????? ??????????????????and make a fence for the Torah. And so in addition to the liberty enshrined at Sinai there was at the time of Paul the Temple and its service plus the traditions (???fence for the Torah???) of the elders. So what was bothering Paul? The Glorious Liberty of the Sons of God On the positive side I believe that Paul is refocusing us on the liberty conferred at Sinai. Jesus had prayed to the God of Sinai (Jn 17:17), ???[T]hy word is truth.??? He said (Jn 8:32), ???And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.??? He says ???free???. James calls the Ten Commandments ???the law of liberty??? (James 2:12) and ???the perfect law of liberty??? (James 1:25). Would Paul have agreed? Paul, in one of the most beautiful sections of Romans, speaks of deliverance from bondage to liberty???which I think we can see as a midrash on Exodus (Rom 8:21), ???Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.??? The bondage of corruption is the sin that dwells within???the evil inclination. The liberty is in the word of God. In yesterday???s Torah reading (August 11, 2007) Moses consoles the people of the covenant (Deut 14:1), ???Ye are the children of the LORD your God ?????? And who did Jesus say are the children of God? He said that (Luke 20:36) ???the children of God [are] the children of the resurrection???! And what do the rabbis say? They agree! The Mishna again (Pirqe Abot 2:15): ?????? but know that the reward of the righteous is given in the time to come [?????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ????????????]??? If you have access to the ArtScroll Mishna Series commentary you will see the many quotes from rabbinical and Talmudic sources to this effect, how that what Paul calls ???the first commandment with promise??? (Eph 6:2) really contains the promise of eternal life. But it???s not a promise removed from this world???it???s here where the problems are and where our fellow man groans in darkness???hence the resurrection from the dead which is basic in the New Testament (Hebrew 6:2) as also in Judaism where it???s in the prayer book as the Rambam???s 13th principle of faith: ????? ???? ???????????????? ????????????????? ???? ???????????????? I believe with complete faith ?????????????????????? ?????????????????? ??????????????????that there will be a resurrection of the dead ???????????? ?????????????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????????????????? in the time when a desire arises from the Creator, ?????????????????????? ???????????? let his name be blessed ???????????????????????? ?????????????? and his memory exalted ?????????? ????????? ???????? ? ??????????????forever and for all eternity. For Paul the Ten Commandments are spirit or spiritual (Rom 7:14), ???For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.??? And again (Rom 8:4), ???That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.??? That means we keep the law! The epistle of Galatians supposedly overthrows the law???but note how it concludes with its admonitions to bear the fruits of the spirit and not fall prey to the baser urges of the flesh. The big problem is internalizing Torah such that we bear its fruits. A man who observes Torah is ???like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season ?????? (Ps 1:3)???it is in this light we should read Galatians 5. Thus when Paul writes (Gal 5:1), ???Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage???, I take him to mean we are free to bear the fruits of Torah and should not get caught up in substitute systems and efforts that divert us from that cause. So it???s liberty???but not liberty to sin (verse 13-23), ???For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this [Lev 19:18]; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. ??? But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.??? The law contains only three positive commands, ?? the first commandment (1st according to the rabbis is [you???ve got to hear David Fohrman on this], ???I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.??? The New Testament agrees [Heb 11:6]: ???But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.???), ?? the fourth commandment (remember the Sabbath), ?? and the fifth commandment (honor your father and mother). The other seven commandments are negative???which is as it should be if this is a ???perfect law of liberty???. Why? Because God???s yoke is easy???just a few positive regulations (belief, Sabbath, honor) with mostly negative proscriptions (???thou shalt not???). Rome???s way and the Napoleonic code and the way of all statists is regulations piled upon regulations. In America, it used to be said, the law tells you what you cannot do, whereas in Europe you cannot do anything unless the law orders it. As Thomas Sowell brings out in his wonderful little book, The Quest for Cosmic Justice (Free Press, 2002), rule by judicial edict and labyrinthine regulation is bondage, but a few negative rules made public before the fact (written in stone) simple enough to be internalized by all (written in the heart) is the way of liberty. Thus the fruits of the spirit as regulated and restrained by in the Ten Commandments??????against such there is no law.??? We are free to bear fruit! Let m e count the ways! A Schoolmaster, Not a Bribe Paul calls the ???law??????by which he means the works/labors/service of Torah and by extension the fence around the Torah??????our schoolmaster??? (Gal 3:24, 25), ???????????????????? in Greek. A paedagog was not so much an advanced instructor as a family servant, one who takes the child to and from school, one responsible for the son???s safety, a baby sitter if you will. Elsewhere Paul contrasts this role with that of a teacher whom he likens to a father (1Cor 4:15), ???For though ye have ten thousand instructers [?????????????? ???????????????????????] in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.??? And so Paul???s ???works of law??? (??????????? ??????????/???????????????? ??????????????) neither were nor are something bad. People need structure and ritual and Paul is not saying that anyone should abandon such. Rather Luke records Paul saying (Acts 25:8): ???Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the te mple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.??? Note what it says of the celestial Jerusalem in exile (Rev 12:6): ???And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.??? I find it interesting that 1260 years elapse from the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem (637)???the Muslim presence is still the thorn in Jerusalem???s side???to the founding of the World Zionist Organization by Theodor Herzl (1897). During that time ???Jerusalem??? was nourished in the wilderness by rabbis, by prayers and rituals. The Sabbath, as they say, has kept the Jews more than the Jews have kept the Sabbath. Thus the nation was preserved???its integrity as a people, its language and Torah and traditions of interpretation. Much of this collapsed as Jews flocked to the secular atheism of the ???Enlightenment???, but it is still the regimen of the righteous as the tribe is being restored in the land (Gal 3:24-25): ???Wherefore the law was our schoolmast er to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.??? But the nation as a whole has yet to return to its God (Zech 12:10-14) and forsake the idols of agnosticism, secularism and socialism. It just may be that the fence for the Torah is too much for most people today. But rest assured the spirit is moving and the day is coming when, as it says (Hos 2:1-2[1:10-11]), ?? ?????????????? ???????????????? ??????? ?????????????????????????? ?????????????? ???????????? 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, ???????????? ???????????????????? ?????????? ???????????????? which cannot be measured nor numbered; ?????????????? ?????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ??????????and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, ???????????????????? ???????????? Ye are not my people, ?????????????? ??????????there it shall be said unto them, ??????? ???? ????????????????Ye are the sons of the living God. ?? ????? ?????????????????? ??????? ?????????????????????????? ????? ?????????????????????????? ????????????????11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ??????????and appoint themselves one head, ?????????????? ??????????????????????and they shall come up out of the land: ???????? ???????????? ???????? ??????????????????????for great shall be the day of Jezreel. And so whereas the tabernacle and temple and sacrifices and fence for the Torah have served to preserve the nation, Israel as a whole has yet to repent and be forgiven. This, let me suggest, is what Paul means when he says (Gal 2:16), ???Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.??? Israel needs national leadership that all can accept??????one head??????the real messiah as king who will take responsibility. To combat the fruits of the flesh that we too often bear there is no substitute for the law in our hearts. God accepts no bribe, as Moses says (Deut10:17), ???For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward???. That???s what Paul means when he says ther e is no justification ????? ??????????? ??????????. There is no substitutionary sacrifice! Each man is responsible for his own sins and must repent and plead for mercy. Isn???t this the subject of the whole of Ezekiel 18? 1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. ??? 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Thus there are no indulgences to purchase favor from the God of Israel. There is no tabernacle, no temple, no service, no ritual, no liturgy, no praise music, no circumcision, no sacred names, no buildings, no money, no special handshakes, no whoopin??? and hollerin???, no burnt offerings, no trances, no sacred dance, no special offerings, no potlatches, no donations, no special words, no repetitious words, no vows of silence, no sacrifices, no dreams, no gifts, no prophecies, no moans, no groans, no prayers, no s??ances, no visitations, no incantations, no silence, no mystical experience, no emotion, no lack of emotion, no magic, no drug induced euphoria, no epiphany, no tattoo, no piercing, no rite of passage, no endurance test, no spiritual manifestation???NOTHING???nothing but the mercy of God and the Torah written in our hearts. No sacrifice???not even messiah???s death???directly expiates guilt. Only ???????????????????? t??shuvah (meaning a return to obedience) and the mercy of God. Are we the lost sheep of the house of Israel? Remember our forefathers (1Kings18:28), ???And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.??? Israel has tried everything! Maybe it???s time for a little Jeremiah 31:33. Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. Attachment 1: What was the schoolmaster_guardian_.eml (message/rfc822) Displayed Inline -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080208/2ff9e43a/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 11 11:09:59 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:09:59 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Laws of Noah Message-ID: <021120081709.3566.47B0816700009A8800000DEE22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Wow, that discussion was amazing! I wanted to thank all of you for your wonderful input. It's made me take another look at what it means to be "one of G-d's people." The main reason I wanted to get all of your input, is I'm about to re-enter the work place where I'll be working around 100 people everyday. My hearts desire is to show the light of G-d in everything I do and say, which I'm sure will eventually lead to discussions about how to live "Righteously." I need to be prepared to answer them the way G-d would have me answer. Your input has given me insight and with G-d's guidance I'm sure I'll be able to do just that. Praise to G-d for this wonderful online family. I look forward to the next topic of discussion with you, my brothers and sisters. Tammy My own approach is that the Torah, in principle, is for all humanity, and I do not view the various "commandments" so much as "laws" to follow as teachings to learn from. That is the meaning of the term Torah in the first place. It is also used for "rain," the idea of something falling and offering life and nurture. So, if I read in the Torah that I should put a railing on my flat roof so folks don't fall off I would never ask--hmm, as a "Gentile" do I need to do that?? Or if I think I am of the "lost tribes," is that "required" of me. You see the point. The verse that really speaks of what is REQUIRED of Israel does not specify "laws," right, but attitudes--Micah 6:8. Hosea and Amos say the same. I like the approach of asking not "what must I do," but "what can I do," as recently expressed here. Psalm 119 is a good place in which to ground oneself, and Isa 56 is a prophetic echo of the same approach. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/85e3ced2/attachment.html From amydomin at aol.com Mon Feb 11 11:29:02 2008 From: amydomin at aol.com (amydomin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:29:02 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA3AEABAA4CB4D-13BC-1EDD@webmail-nb04.sysops.aol.com> Okay, this may sound very dumb and very trivial...but, does an orthodox man HAVE to wear a kippah at work? Since it is not in the Torah, and it is more of a tradition, is there any halacha that says it is mandatory? Thanks, Amy -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 5:37 am Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Shalom, v'Boker tov! ? ??? I 've been asking lots of questions over the last number of weeks.? Now, I think it's YOUR turn - what is it that you folks have been wondering?? It doesn't need to be a question for me, or for anyone in particular - but think, is there something you're looking? to find out about? ? ??? Ask away! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judahthe Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/e30ca962/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 11 11:49:08 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:49:08 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Message-ID: <021120081749.18705.47B08A94000510140000491122243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> I have a question. 12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. What is the true definition of this commandment? In my case my parents were both athiests who believed money to be their god. Tammy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/0638cf78/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 11 11:52:20 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:52:20 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Message-ID: <021120081752.2132.47B08B5300099D290000085422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Me, I don't know cher! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from amydomin at aol.com: -------------- Okay, this may sound very dumb and very trivial...but, does an orthodox man HAVE to wear a kippah at work? Since it is not in the Torah, and it is more of a tradition, is there any halacha that says it is mandatory? Thanks, Amy -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 5:37 am Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Shalom, v'Boker tov! I 've been asking lots of questions over the last number of weeks. Now, I think it's YOUR turn - what is it that you folks have been wondering? It doesn't need to be a question for me, or for anyone in particular - but think, is there something you're looking to find out about? Ask away! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/e224596b/attachment.html From amydomin at aol.com Mon Feb 11 12:15:43 2008 From: amydomin at aol.com (amydomin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:15:43 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? In-Reply-To: <021120081752.2132.47B08B5300099D290000085422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <021120081752.2132.47B08B5300099D290000085422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <8CA3AF13FD54B62-13BC-259A@webmail-nb04.sysops.aol.com> HUH?!?!?!? -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 9:52 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Me, I don't know cher! ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from amydomin at aol.com: -------------- Okay, this may sound very dumb and very trivial...but, does an orthodox man HAVE to wear a kippah at work? Since it is not in the Torah, and it is more of a tradition, is there any halacha that says it is mandatory? ? Thanks, Amy -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 5:37 am Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Shalom, v'Boker tov! ? ??? I 've been asking lots of questions over the last number of weeks.? Now, I think it's YOUR turn - what is it that you folks have been wondering?? It doesn't need to be a question for me, or for anyone in particular - but think, is there something you're looking? to find out about? ? ??? Ask away! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judahthe Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/0b608e99/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 11 15:18:46 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 16:18:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? In-Reply-To: <8CA3AEABAA4CB4D-13BC-1EDD@webmail-nb04.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA3AEABAA4CB4D-13BC-1EDD@webmail-nb04.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CA3B0AD2A0234F-F5C-B1F@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com> Hi Amy - ??? I just realized that no one else was likely to attempt to answer this one but me...? LOL? No, men's head covering is strictly minhag (custom), it is NOT Halacha.? There are numerous things that men do to keep their heads covered for as much of the day as possible, if they do not wear a head covering at work (the reason the head is covered is that it's a sign of acknowledging that G-d is above them - never quite figured out how a kipa does THAT....but I wear one anyway). including wearing at hat to and from work, and/or covering their heads when eating (saying a bracha).? ???? Having said that, over the last 25 years, or so, wearing a kipa has taken on the additional significance of signifying an 'ethnic identification' - 'Jewish pride' kind of thing, but that's more sociological, then anything else.? Once again, I'm not a Rabbi, so, it's just my view and understanding, but I can clearly state that it is NOT a Halacha. ????? Hope this helps - ????? Best regards, ??????????????? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah -----Original Message----- From: amydomin at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Okay, this may sound very dumb and very trivial...but, does an orthodox man HAVE to wear a kippah at work? Since it is not in the Torah, and it is more of a tradition, is there any halacha that says it is mandatory? ? Thanks, Amy -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 5:37 am Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Shalom, v'Boker tov! ? ??? I 've been asking lots of questions over the last number of weeks.? Now, I think it's YOUR turn - what is it that you folks have been wondering?? It doesn't need to be a question for me, or for anyone in particular - but think, is there something you're looking? to find out about? ? ??? Ask away! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judahthe Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/34252e5a/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Feb 11 16:14:57 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 16:14:57 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] re: what to do In-Reply-To: <674677.70130.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a201c86cfb$8cbc4940$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Margie, I think in the flurry of emails that I received when I was unable to respond, I read yours (and quoted you in one of my recent emails), but I never welcomed you to the group. So, a belated but sincere welcome to you! It sounds like you have had a fascinating journey and it looks like you are in a good place to both teach and reach others who are just waiting for the opportunity to be afforded them to take another step in their knowledge of Who G-d is and what the Torah could mean in their lives. I think John's advice is good. (BTW John, I am glad to see that you were offered and opportunity to teach and that you accepted it and it went well. That is great news!) Margie, I think you have a beautiful attitude and spirit to match and I cannot imagine you ever becoming UNteachable! I think you have made a good decision and am glad you are encouraged and are walking in it! Shavua tov (have a good week!) Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Margie Creech Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 7:32 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] re: what to do John, Thank you for the words of encouragement. We have decided to stay so that we can continue the Bible study on Tuesday nights. I have been sending everyone articles that I have collected over the years that include tons of scripture. Somehow it is easier to see truth when you read it for yourself instead of hammering people with it (as I have done at times). Sometimes I get so excited about how AWESOME G-d's Ways are that I forget how I felt when I began to discover that maybe what I'd been taught all my life by the church and my parents wasn't necessarily so. What I loved about my experience is that G-d first showed me in His Word and then confirmed through people who were finding out the same thing. I am learning everyday and am still blown away by how perfect His entire Word is. I love this group and have already been moved to look at things anew. My prayer is that I stay teachable. Margie _____ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/6d0f0a18/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Feb 11 16:51:27 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:51:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who are these? In-Reply-To: <200802100407.m1A46waL026089@mail2535.carrierzone.com> References: <200802100407.m1A46waL026089@mail2535.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <00be01c86d00$a41bebe0$0200a8c0@marvin> The comments form Steve and Clyde I agree with, However, if I may speculate lets look at it another way. God scattered Judah and Israel, some he scattered farther from home then he did others. When they return home will they be alone or will others come with them, both in mind and in body? Acts 15:15-15-17 Did James and Peter only understand the tabernacle of David as a physical building, tent, or tabernacle? Did this building first have to be built, "so that the rest of mankind may seek Hashem"? And also, "all the gentiles who are called by my name". I could answer yes, the physical building a focal point for all mankind to come too, to focus on Hashem. The question was "who are these people" and "what is the name that is upon these people"? As I understand the Greek the word "build" should be translated as rebuild or re-established. Which could apply to both a physical building and also to the tabernacle or tent? The reference in Acts 15 is to Amos 9:11-12 where we see "tabernacle of David, which has fallen down... repair its damages,... raise up its ruins. V. 12 - "that they may pocessess... remnant of Edom(LXX used mankind) and all the Gentiles called by my name". What I see the text dealing with is David and it could also include Judah, which David sprang form, but Israel is not mention until 2 verse's later. My point or question, could this be referring to "David's Tabernacle" only? What then is David's tabernacle? In 2Sam 7:12 we see that David is told, "I will set up your seed, after you, who will come from your body, I will establish his kingdom". But this is not the verse used in Acts 15. V.18 David asked, "What is my house"? V.19 "your servants house for a great while to come. Is this the manner of men?" It seems that David is asking about the "House" or are you setting up a dynasty for me? Then he talks about "Israel being the one nation on earth whom God redeemed for himself, a people for his name."v.23. Then in v.26 David said to Hashem, "Let the house of your servant be established before you". If you look back to v.16 I see that there are three distinct things in the vision. 1). "your house" 2). "your Kingdom" 3). "your throne". If you compare the 2Samuel passage with the one in 1Chr 17 you see different language in relation to "the seed". It is "MY son" , "my mercy", "my house", "my kingdom", and then, "his throne" In my mind these are quite different things. Psa 78:67-70 - Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim: But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved. And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established forever. He chose David also his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds: So we understand from this verse that God chose Judah and not Joseph or Ephraim as the tribe to set up his ruler. Although, we know Tribes and tabernacles are mentioned here, the focus of Hashem went from all the children of Jacob to Judah and then even narrowed down to just the family of David and then to just one seed of Judah that of David. Hashem made promise's to David that he made to no other person. God will establish a kingdom from the seed of David's body. This seed shall build a house for God's name and God will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. God will be his father and the seed shall be God's son. If this son commits iniquity God will chasten him, but he will not remove his mercy as God took it from Saul. God told David, your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before me, and your throne shall be established forever. Jeremiah the Prophet asks the question, why does the way of the wicked prosper? 12:1 God proceeds to answer and although judgment may be delayed it will not be withheld. In v.7 God said, "I have forsaken my house, left my heritage". I see here God speaking of Judah or Greater Israel. Then when we get to v.14 we see that God is going to pluck his evil neighbors from out of their land, and then when he is through plucking the evil neighbors he turns to start plucking Judah out from among them. Then after the plucking will Hashem return, have compassion, bring them back everyone to his heritage and to his land.v.15. Now notice v.16 and 17 If the people whom God is bringing back if they will learn the ways of My people, to swear by My name, as they taught My people to swear by Baal, then they shall be established in the mist of my people." Are these people the neighbors (nations round about Judah) or are they Judah? I think the answer is obvious. The next verse tells us that if they do not obey, there's going be more "pluckin" and that nation will be destroyed. If you're unsure of whom God's people are, refer back to v.14. As I see it there are several different people's, nations', here along with Judah and maybe even Israel proper. Zechariah 12:7-13:2 Here the "house of David" is mentioned 5 times. In these verse's I do not think the writer is speaking of a building. He states that, Judah will be saved first so that the "glory of David's house" and the "Glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater then that of Judah". Remember the jealously of the brothers, the envy of Ephraim and Judah. Many people, many lands, many positions. But God calls us back to our heritage. Now notice Jeremiah 33:v4- "concerning the houses of this city and the houses of the kings of Judah". V.7- "I will cause the captives of Judah and the captives of Israel to return." V.11 "I shall bring back the captives of the land" This is another group besides Israel and Judah, However, I understand this does not work grammatically. V.15 "In those days and at that time.... to grow up to David, a Branch of righteousness." V.16 In those days Judah will be saved, and this is the name by which she will be called: The LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" These next three verses are the lynchpin of this dialogue. Jer.33:24-26 - Jer 33:23 -25 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Many times this verse is quoted as if God is talking about the two families, The two sticks, Judah and Israel (Ephraim). But I submit to you that the two Sticks are not in view here. God is talking about two families he has made a Covenant with and this covenant is as sure as the day and night, as sure As the sun coming up and the moon appearing in the night sky. This Covenant that all of Israel hinges on.. Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant,(refer bk. To v.22.) so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them. Below you will see the question that Steve proposed. I'm not sure if I'm on track but according to what I have submitted there is more to the seed of David then the one seed (Messiah). Marvin -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 11:07 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Who are these? Hello ALL, At the end of my recent posting re "Sha'ul, Torah, 7 Laws, Christians, & the heart," I mentioned: "As another parting "conundrum," and can of worms for another string to discuss is, "a people taken out for His name," and "all Gentiles upon whom my name is called," (Acts. 15: 15,17). Who are these people, and what is the "name" that is upon these people? What is the name that "called upon them?" What does this name make them? If any one has any ideas on this please let us know. Steve _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Feb 11 17:36:44 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:36:44 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah means "rain." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ad01c86d06$f64f4280$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thanks, Pat and James. This relationship of Torah to rain is very revealing. Water and rain are necessary for our existence and the existence of this planet in which we live and provide many benefits. I am reminded of many additional thoughts along these same lines, but will only share a few. (1)Gen 1:1: "In the beginning, G-d created the heavens and the earth; and the earth was void and without form, and darkness was on the face of the deep (water)" And G-d's Spirit moved over the surface of the waters. So G-d started with water and when he made man, he made him 75% water and planned for offspring to begin to develop in the womb surrounded by water, so newborn babies come into the world clean (no original sin). And of course as we become tainted by our free choice actions, we do t'shuvah (turn back to G-d). We are reminded of the Jewish traditional ritual bath or mikveh, where the person immerse himself/herself in water and ritually become clean again which symbolizes a rebirth. (2) Deut 11:13-21 (second portion of the Shema) "And it shall come to pass, if you hearken diligently to my commandments which I command you this day, to love L-rd your G-d, and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul, that I will give you the rain of your land in its due season, the early rain and the later rain, that thou mayest gather in they corn and they wine and thine oil." (verse 13-14).but if we do not this, G-d has promised to shut up the heavens ."that there be no rain, and the land yield not its fruit; and your perish quickly from off the good land which the L-rd gives you" (verse 17). AND WHAT IS THIS ESSENTIAL 'RAIN' BASED ON? The Shema tells us that it is based on whether we love and serve G-d with all of our being and whether we are TEACHING OUR CHILDREN TORAH. So basically when we follow G-d's commandments by living them in our lives and teaching them to our children, we are blessed by both physical rain and by the results of the Teaching of Torah. I realize that these commandments regarding rain were actually only applicable to the land of Israel; but I think that we can certainly apply them spiritually. When we are in the midst of teaching and learning Torah and passing it on to our children, we experience refreshing and rejuvenation in our hearts and innermost being.when we get too busy to involve ourselves in Torah study, we often experience a spiritual "drought." I would like to bring forth one other concept regarding Torah as it relates to shooting at a target. Years ago I learned from Joe Good that "yarah" relates to Torah in that it is an archer's term, (as you brought out, Pat So when you can picture an arrow being shot towards a target. When we "hit" the target, we are blessed; when we "miss the mark," we sin and suffer the consequences. In fact, from what I remember, sin can be defined as "missing the mark." Lots more there, but will leave it at that for now. Perhaps others have more to offer? Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 8:32 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Torah means "rain." James mentioned in passing that the word, Torah, means rain. I had never realized this before - or if I had, it didn't sink in. The prime root of the word, "torah," is "yarah" (yud, reish, hay). Yarah means "to shoot, fire; to throw; to pour (water) - i.e. to rain." As I understand it, its secondary meaning is "to teach, instruct, direct, show, decide, enjoin, command." The root meaning of Torah can be to direct by shooting, as if firing at, or throwing towards a target, a fount of water. Rain is water being shot at a target. Some of the benefits of rain are sustenance, growth, cleansing, filling, and even dousing (which can put out "wild" fires). Torah Rain is aimed at specific targets to create specific results. For instance, there is Rain that falls only upon Levites that they may flourish. At other times the Rain falls only upon the women of the whole House of Israel, that they may grow and thrive. Yet another example is the Rainfall that benefits all of mankind. Those waters are directed to fall over vast areas of population to promote their health and welfare. Torah is the blessing of G-d rained down upon men. May our hearts become as great reservoirs holding the Torah/Rain of HaShem as it is directed toward each of us according to His Purpose. Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/ebdc5fca/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Feb 11 20:27:52 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:27:52 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Insanity in Sderot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002801c86d1e$de9089c0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, Pat and all, Yes, this is a most grievous and tragic situation, one that has to tear at the heart of all "feeling" people! Why does the world not rise up in uprage??? Why do we have to go on line to an Israeli website and hear these stories, rather than turn on our television sets and hear and see it covered from our own media? And why must Israel be admonished by her "friends" to just stand by and do nothing???? Why isn't there more of an outrage among the people against the spineless government? Can you imagine if this were happening on one of our borders? We wouldn't stand for it! But what is worse, is that this is land that was willingly handed over to these "Islamo Natzis" (to use Hanoch's word) as a gesture by Israel for peace! Now, how much sense does that make? I saw one of these stories yesterday and tried to forward it to the list, but was unable to do so. So glad you sent this, Hanoch. The article by Meir Kahane below the story of the two injured boys is excellent, and is as timeless as if it were written yesterday. I like many am so perplexed and frustrated and incensed by this situation with the constant attacks on the innocents while the Israeli government just sits by.and even suggests "talking" to the terrorists, which seems so ridiculous!!! They don't want to talk, they just want to continue attacking and attacking and grabbing more and more land until the people together with the Israeli government are so weakened that they can no more stand or defend themselves. I am reminded of the wisdom of King Solomon and his words in Ecclestiates (Qohelet) 3:1-8. "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven, a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; a time to build and a time to break down, a time to weep, and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance." and so on and so on. Verse 8 is certainly appropriate here.."a time of war and a time of peace." As much as I, like most, would prefer peace, this is not peace and the whole 'peace process' seems to be an empty dream right now if left in the hands of the present leaders. The enemies of Israel see restraint as weakness. They need to see strength! How long before the time of peace becomes a time of war.it seems to me that it is long overdue. May HaShem comfort those who are mourning and may He strengthen His people and come to their aid in a mighty way! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 8:12 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Insanity in Sderot Shalom, I imagine that everyone is aware of the constant, unrelenting rocket attcks on Sderot, in southern Israel. Remember, this was supposedly the reason we destoyed all the Jewish towns and villages of Gush Katif, so the Islamo-Nazis would leave us alone, right? Below is a short story which really touched my heart. And to think, that Israel, with the 4th largest Air Force in the WORLD is restrained by their (Hellenistic) governement from responding....Please see a commentary below the article.... 'Mommy, Where Are My Legs?' Over this past Shabbat, 40 Qassams were fired from Northern Gaza toward Sderot. One of them landed near a house Saturday evening and severely injured two brothers, Osher Tuito, 8, and Rami Tuito, 19 The boys had just left the house to go buy their father a birthday present at a shop nearby. When the Code Red siren sounded, they only had 20 seconds to seek cover, not enough time to escape the incoming rocket which landed just 2 yards from them. One leg was immediately severed from the eight year old and the other one was crushed. His brother also suffered serious injuries to his legs. Both boys were evacuated to the Intensive Care unit of Barzilai hospital in Ashkelon, and later transferred by Tel Aviv's Sheba Medical Center where at this hour they are both undergoing extensive surgery. Avner Chen, a taxi driver that was passing through the area of the attack, told Ynet that "I heard the Color Red (siren) and I started running quickly from the car and layed down on the road and then I heard the very loud explosion right next to me. "I saw smoke and when I got up, I saw the boy and another youngster stretched on the road, one of them was very seriously wounded and it looked horrendous. I tried to stop the flow of blood and then the second one shouted 'help me, save me!' and I went to the second one and started to help him as well. At the same time, I called for Magen David Adom and the fire department on the radio. "It was a dreadful sight, one of the worst I've seen in my life," Chen said. Besides losing his leg, the younger child also had multiple chest wounds from the shrapnel. Later, he would ask his mother: "Mommy, where are my legs?" No one knows what the traumatized mother replied. Dr. Emil Chai, the hospital's deputy director-general, said that hospital staff are working hard to keep the second leg but it's also in very bad condition. In addition, the boy has a hole in his chest and his lungs are injured. The family's third son, 15, is being treated for trauma. Iris Twito, the boys' mother, said that Osher's dream was to become a soccer player. "How will he cope?" she wept. "How will he live without legs? He doesn't understand yet but he'll have to understand." Hospital staff workers at Barzilai Hospital where the boys were first taken are themselves still traumatized. Osher was still conscious when he arrived and reportedly was screaming, "Save me, save me". Nurses and doctors wept openly at his condition and his suffering. Fervent prayer is being made on behalf of this child and of his older brother all over Israel and abroad. The whole family needs our prayers. Here is an excerpt on Revenge that Rav Kahane wrote in his Magnum Opus: On Revenge Rabbi Meir Kahane Hy"D (Excerpted from OHR HARA'AYON [The Jewish Idea], Chapter12) Love has its place, as does hate. Peace has its place, as does war. Mercy has its place, as do cruelty and revenge. The Torah dons sackcloth over the distortion of the concept of revenge, which has become a target for the arrows of all Jewish Hellenists and worshippers of the alien culture, as if revenge were negative and evil by nature. The very opposite is true! No trait is more justified than revenge in the right time and place. G-d, Himself, is called NOKEM, Avenger: "The L-rd is a zealous and avenging G-d. The L-rd avenges and is full of wrath. He takes revenge on His adversaries and reserves wrath for His enemies" (Nachum 1:2). Our sages also said (Berachot 33a), "Shall we say that even revenge is great because it appears between two names of G-d? 'A G-d of vengeance is the L-rd' (Psalms 94:1). Rabbi Elazar responded, 'Indeed. Where revenge is necessary, it is a great thing.'" "It is a great thing!" It is a great mitzvah to take the revenge of the righteous and humble the evildoer. Whoever forgoes or rejects such an opportunity is cruel, and he denies belief in G-d. As King David said (Psalms 58:11-12): The righteous man shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. Men shall say, "Verily there is a reward for the righteous. Verily there is a G-d Who judges on earth." This is the secret of the greatness and holiness of revenge. It explains why it is a mitzvah and why the righteous are joyous when they see it carried out. When injustice is done on earth, when the kingdom of evil takes control and stifles the righteous and the innocent, it is only natural for a person to ask G-d, "Where are You?" In a period of Divine concealment, doubt and heresy burgeon forth, as it says (Deut. 31:17), "I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. Many evils and troubles shall come upon them, so that they will say on that day, 'Are not these evils come upon us because our G-d is not among us?'" The explanation of many of the commentaries, that this verse refers to Israel's repenting, does not seem valid, for if so, why does Scripture immediately reiterate, "I will surely hide My face" (Ibid., v. 18)? Rather, the explanation is that Israel will explain the lack of G-d's presence not as His intentionally hiding His face, but as testimony, so to speak, that G-d is incapable of helping or that He does not exist, G-d forbid. The evildoer's victory is the very worst profanation of G-d's name, because it implies the defeat or impotence of G-d. Of this, King David said (Psalms 44:23-25): Nay, but for Your sake are we killed all the day. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Awake! Why do You sleep, O L-rd? Arouse Yourself, cast us not off forever. Wherefore do You hide Your face...?" Thus, when G-d stops hiding His face and actually "awakens...like a mighty man recovering from wine, and smites His enemies" (Psalms 78:65-66), when He takes the revenge of His people and of Himself, He thereby sanctifies His name, proving to the world that Israel indeed has a G-d and that He lives and endures. The victory of injustice and wickedness is ostensible proof of G-d's absence from the world, and there is no greater profanation of G-d's name. By contrast,G-d's victory and revenge over His enemies, the evildoers, prove to the world that "verily there is a G-d Who judges on earth!" (Psalms 58:12). Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/8e287175/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Mon Feb 11 20:34:44 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:34:44 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? References: <021120081752.2132.47B08B5300099D290000085422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <8CA3AF13FD54B62-13BC-259A@webmail-nb04.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <018101c86d1f$d464aac0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Johns just "talking like a cajun"........(we just had mardi gras here.) "Cher" or "chere" (male and female version of "dear," respectively) is used to address close friends and family members. Everything in French, Spanish and Italian is either "male" or "female." There is no "it" in these languages. "Hey, chere." is a common greeting. Cajun French pronunciation of "cher" is "sha" with an 'A' sound used in "cat," not "shah." The correct pronunciation of "chere" is close to "share" in English. In Cajun French, they're both pronounced pretty close to the male version. It's also used in various forms of conversation, as in "trop chere" ("too dear" or expensive, pronounced Tro share, with a hard O sound on tro), "cher little heart," (mainly reserved for children) or just "cher heart" (compliment for charitable, kind and/or generous acts of adults). dave ----- Original Message ----- From: amydomin at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? HUH?!?!?!? -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 9:52 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Me, I don't know cher! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from amydomin at aol.com: -------------- Okay, this may sound very dumb and very trivial...but, does an orthodox man HAVE to wear a kippah at work? Since it is not in the Torah, and it is more of a tradition, is there any halacha that says it is mandatory? Thanks, Amy -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 5:37 am Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Shalom, v'Boker tov! I 've been asking lots of questions over the last number of weeks. Now, I think it's YOUR turn - what is it that you folks have been wondering? It doesn't need to be a question for me, or for anyone in particular - but think, is there something you're looking to find out about? Ask away! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080211/10ee747c/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 11 20:43:37 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 02:43:37 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? In-Reply-To: <018101c86d1f$d464aac0$6400a8c0@davesbook> References: <021120081752.2132.47B08B5300099D290000085422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><8CA3AF13FD54B62-13BC-259A@webmail-nb04.sysops.aol.com><018101c86d1f$d464aac0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <826294172-1202784427-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1512926818-@bxe012.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Yeah, what Dave said. ;-{)} Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Dave Cole" Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:34:44 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Johns just? "talking like a cajun"........(we just had mardi gras here.) ? ? ? ?Cher? or ?chere? (male and female version of ?dear,? respectively) is used to address close friends and family members.? Everything in French, Spanish and Italian is either ?male? or ?female.?? There is no ?it? in these languages.? ?Hey, chere.? is a common greeting.? Cajun French pronunciation of ?cher? is ?sha? with an ?A? sound used in ?cat,? not ?shah.?? The correct pronunciation of ?chere? is close to ?share? in English.? In Cajun French, they?re both pronounced pretty close to the male version.? It?s also used in various forms of conversation, as in ?trop chere? (?too dear? or expensive, pronounced Tro share, with a hard O sound on tro), ?cher little heart,? (mainly reserved for children) or just ?cher heart? (compliment for charitable, kind and/or generous acts of adults).? ? dave ----- Original Message ----- From: amydomin at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? HUH?!?!?!? -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 9:52 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Me, I don't know cher! ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from amydomin at aol.com : -------------- Okay, this may sound very dumb and very trivial...but, does an orthodox man HAVE to wear a kippah at work? Since it is not in the Torah, and it is more of a tradition, is there any halacha that says it is mandatory? ? Thanks, Amy -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 5:37 am Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Shalom, v'Boker tov! ? ??? I 've been asking lots of questions over the last number of weeks.? Now, I think it's YOUR turn - what is it that you folks have been wondering?? It doesn't need to be a question for me, or for anyone in particular - but think, is there something you're looking? to find out about? ? ??? Ask away! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ---------------- Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ ---------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ ---------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Feb 12 02:32:04 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:32:04 -0800 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who are these? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200802120832.m1C8W2aC026653@mail107c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/b5ada717/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Feb 12 02:40:26 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:40:26 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Insanity in Sderot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200802120840.m1C8eOBo017857@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/1c312524/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Feb 12 08:25:43 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:25:43 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who are these? Message-ID: Dear Steve: Thank you for your kind comments. You wrote: Three more questions, if I may: 1) According to your understanding, what was the mission then of the Rabbi from Nazareth? 2) Whatever it was, was it accomplished then or is it still to be accomplished? 3) What are his followers supposed to believe and do? Thanks ahead of time for two more cents worth. Steve I believe before anything else Yeshua came to interpret correctly the Torah of G-D and having done so, kept it in both the letter and in the Spirit. In a phone conversation Ross reminded me that we have so few sayings of Yeshua in the gospels - but we know what he believed - so we read the Torah and Prophets on the Sabbath - because the Torah was the core and heart of the message of Yeshua. I hope this short answer in some sense answers the first question. (2) to answer the second question fully as I believe, it would make this email far to long. As so often is the case, I would answer # 2, as yes, Yeshua accomplished what Yahovah asked of him - which I take as the suffering servant. I take the suffering servant role in the manner of MBJ who was instrumental in bringing all of the sons of Jacob together as one, in the land of Egypt. It was said by Caiaphas Jn 11:49 52, but not of himself that Yeshua had to die for this nation, i.e. Judah, but not for this nation only, but that he should gather together in one the children of G-D that were scattered abroad. And so I think the first of a two-phase mission was accomplished - but perhaps the outcome of bringing together as one both Judah and the lost sheep of the house of Israel, is in the first stages in this generation. As I surf the Internet I'm amazed that all over this blessed nation the children of G-D are awakening and turning to the roots of faith and the Torah that Yeshua lived and died for. An example in this group is Hanoch who is reaching out the hand of fellowship to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and those of the house of Israel reaching out the hand of fellowship to Hanoch. And it is not in this group only this is occurring, it is happening all over this nation in small numbers. It was said in another place that G-D shall give Yeshua the throne of his father David. If that is to occur, it has not occurred as of yet. And so if Yeshua is the one and we should not look for another, and this I believe is up to individual belief - in which I shall make no judgement. Now as to the MBJ role, I find it interesting that the one from Galilee was to be called Yeshua, i.e. Joshua an Ephraimite. Why would this name be named upon him? It was said that Yeshua would be given a new name in the future. I wonder if he is truly the one we should look for, what might that new name be? And when it was said that he walked no more among the Jews, but went to a town called Ephraim, what might that mean? James and Ross are much better than I am in Torah and the Prophets, but there are scriptures that give Joseph the son of Jacob accomplishments that are to occur long after his death. Who might fulfill or has already fulfilled that role. As Amy said - lots of questions? Now to the last question? I think whether one believes in Yeshua more than a historical figure or not, we ought to be about shouting from the house -tops his message of keep the commandments of G-D. Mainstream Christianity has forgotten the message of this man from Galilee, and in its place developed a religion that is foreign to every thing he taught. It has been said - come out of her my people lest you partake of her wrath. Come out of Babylon and come to what? Yeshua said it well, Mankind should live by every word that proceeded out of the mouth of G-D. And so, ought we be about living the Torah, and not living it only, but teaching others to live it as well? I think this group is living it and teaching it to others who have an ear to hear and eyes to see. My second two-cents for what it might be worth. CB **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/9132abde/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Mathe Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who are these? Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:32:04 -0800 Size: 21604 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/9132abde/attachment.mht From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Feb 12 09:37:41 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:37:41 EST Subject: [Dialogue] More evidence for the 2nd Temple Message-ID: (http://onejerusalem.org/mailer/lt/t_go.php?i=106&e=MjE0OTU0&l=-http--www.onejerusalem.org/) NEWS :: More Second Temple Evidence Uncovered Dear Friend of Jerusalem, Recently, _we informed_ (http://onejerusalem.org/mailer/lt/t_go.php?i=106&e=MjE0OTU0&l=-http--www.onejerusalem.org/blog/archives/2008/01/seal_from_first.asp ) you of an extraordinary archaeological discovery that brings ancient Biblical history into the 21st century. Today, we invite you to learn more about this important story. Some of the original information has been updated. An archaeological project under the auspices of the Shalem Center has uncovered a Biblical seal that dates back to the 5th century BCE. The seal is now believed to be engraved with the name "Shlomit." Shlomit is the name of the daughter of Zerubbabel, grandson of the Judean King Jehoachin, who led the first Jews back to Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity. Jehoachin helped construct the foundation of the Second Temple. The seal was found under a tower constructed at the time of Nehemiah. For an informative account of this archaeological find and background about Nehemiah's wall, check out the _Shalem newsletter account._ (http://onejerusalem.org/mailer/lt/t_go.php?i=106&e=MjE0OTU0&l=-http--www.shalemcenter.org.il/research/--Q -aid--E-c6dac1974dcf03660e4d4b89a7b36599--A-did--E-14) This discovery, in Jerusalem's _City of David_ (http://onejerusalem.org/mailer/lt/t_go.php?i=106&e=MjE0OTU0&l=-http--www.cityofdavid.org.il/index.html) , further proves the ancient bond that the Jewish people made, and continue to have, with the Holy City of Jerusalem. One thousand years before the Muslims invaded Jerusalem, the Jewish nation made Jerusalem its home: the center of its universe. Help safeguard Jerusalem by encouraging others to sign the _Jerusalem petition._ (http://www.onejerusalem.org/blog/index.asp#) * Have you _encouraged someone_ (http://onejerusalem.org/mailer/lt/t_go.php?i=106&e=MjE0OTU0&l=-http--www.onejerusalem.org/refer.asp) to sign the _Jerusalem Petition_ (http://onejerusalem.org/mailer/lt/t_go.php?i=106&e=MjE0OTU0&l=-http--www.onejerusalem.org/blog/sign.asp) today? * Continue _voting Jerusalem_ (http://onejerusalem.org/mailer/lt/t_go.php?i=106&e=MjE0OTU0&l=-http--www.onejerusalem.org/blog/archives/2008/02/jerusal em_is_co.asp) onto the Monopoly board every day (until Feb. 29). Jerusalem is currently #7! We're aiming for #1! Sincerely, (http://onejerusalem.org/mailer/lt/t_go.php?i=106&e=MjE0OTU0&l=-https--www.onejerusalem.org/donate.asp) The One Jerusalem Team OneJerusalem.org P.S. Did you know that 84,517 people count on One Jerusalem? We've got the inside scoop and SPEAK UP for Jerusalem. Help us reach 100,000! _Refer Others now!_ (http://onejerusalem.org/mailer/lt/t_go.php?i=106&e=MjE0OTU0&l=-http--www.onejerusalem.org/refer.asp) ____________________________________ Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/f995276a/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Feb 12 09:54:14 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:54:14 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: YOU MUST WATCH UNION VIDEO Message-ID: <004b01c86d8f$86689190$0200a8c0@marvin> A friend shared this with me this morning. The pictures are disturbing..... The music is beautiful.... Regardless, of the storms in our life God is our shield and salvation. Shalom Marvin **************************************************************************** I had to share this with you, very touching, you will be moved by it! God is so real! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O-IiHCrsK8 Decide to have a good day. "Today is the day the Lord hath made; let us rejoice and be glad in it." Psalms 118:24 From amydomin at aol.com Tue Feb 12 11:51:56 2008 From: amydomin at aol.com (amydomin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:51:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? In-Reply-To: <018101c86d1f$d464aac0$6400a8c0@davesbook> References: <021120081752.2132.47B08B5300099D290000085422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <8CA3AF13FD54B62-13BC-259A@webmail-nb04.sysops.aol.com> <018101c86d1f$d464aac0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <8CA3BB717B429E0-CD8-4E1C@webmail-nd10.sysops.aol.com> Got it! :-) Amy -----Original Message----- From: Dave Cole To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Johns just? "talking like a cajun"........(we just had mardi gras here.) ? ? ? ?Cher? or ?chere? (male and female version of ?dear,? respectively) is used to address close friends and family members.? Everything in French, Spanish and Italian is either ?male? or ?female.?? There is no ?it? in these languages.? ?Hey, chere.? is a common greeting.? Cajun French pronunciation of ?cher? is ?sha? with an ?A? sound used in ?cat,? not ?shah.?? The correct pronunciation of ?chere? is close to ?share? in English.? In Cajun French, they?re both pronounced pretty close to the male version.? It?s also used in various forms of conversation, as in ?trop chere? (?too dear? or expensive, pronounced Tro share, with a hard O sound on tro), ?cher little heart,? (mainly reserved for children) or just ?cher heart? (compliment for charitable, kind and/or generous acts of adults).? ? dave ----- Original Message ----- From: amydomin at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? HUH?!?!?!? -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 9:52 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Me, I don't know cher! ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from amydomin at aol.com: -------------- Okay, this may sound very dumb and very trivial...but, does an orthodox man HAVE to wear a kippah at work? Since it is not in the Torah, and it is more of a tradition, is there any halacha that says it is mandatory? ? Thanks, Amy -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 5:37 am Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Shalom, v'Boker tov! ? ??? I 've been asking lots of questions over the last number of weeks.? Now, I think it's YOUR turn - what is it that you folks have been wondering?? It doesn't need to be a question for me, or for anyone in particular - but think, is there something you're looking? to find out about? ? ??? Ask away! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judahthe Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/b32a144f/attachment.html From amydomin at aol.com Tue Feb 12 11:53:25 2008 From: amydomin at aol.com (amydomin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:53:25 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? In-Reply-To: <8CA3B0AD2A0234F-F5C-B1F@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA3AEABAA4CB4D-13BC-1EDD@webmail-nb04.sysops.aol.com> <8CA3B0AD2A0234F-F5C-B1F@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CA3BB74CFC86E7-CD8-4E38@webmail-nd10.sysops.aol.com> Thanks Hanoch for that information...I understand the idea of Jewish pride though... Toda, Amy -----Original Message----- From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Hi Amy - ? ??? I just realized that no one else was likely to attempt to answer this one but me...? LOL? No, men's head covering is strictly minhag (custom), it is NOT Halacha.? There are numerous things that men do to keep their heads covered for as much of the day as possible, if they do not wear a head covering at work (the reason the head is covered is that it's a sign of acknowledging that G-d is above them - never quite figured out how a kipa does THAT....but I wear one anyway). including wearing at hat to and from work, and/or covering their heads when eating (saying a bracha).? ???? Having said that, over the last 25 years, or so, wearing a kipa has taken on the additional significance of signifying an 'ethnic identification' - 'Jewish pride' kind of thing, but that's more sociological, then anything else.? Once again, I'm not a Rabbi, so, it's just my view and understanding, but I can clearly state that it is NOT a Halacha. ????? Hope this helps - ????? Best regards, ??????????????? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah -----Original Message----- From: amydomin at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Okay, this may sound very dumb and very trivial...but, does an orthodox man HAVE to wear a kippah at work? Since it is not in the Torah, and it is more of a tradition, is there any halacha that says it is mandatory? ? Thanks, Amy -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 5:37 am Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Shalom, v'Boker tov! ? ??? I 've been asking lots of questions over the last number of weeks.? Now, I think it's YOUR turn - what is it that you folks have been wondering?? It doesn't need to be a question for me, or for anyone in particular - but think, is there something you're looking? to find out about? ? ??? Ask away! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judahthe Lil Lion of Judah Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/6f764c40/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Feb 12 12:36:15 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:36:15 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who are these? Message-ID: Good points all - in your paper Marvin. Isaiah 56 kept coming to mind, was this in your thoughts, the ingathering of some aliens, with Israel? CB **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/df523c3c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "mhyde" Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Who are these? Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:51:27 -0500 Size: 10935 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/df523c3c/attachment.mht From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 12 13:56:58 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:56:58 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] re: what to do Message-ID: <021220081956.23665.47B1FA090001F7B200005C7122230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Thanks Betty, It was a welcome surprise, let's see what G-d does with it. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Dear Margie, I think in the flurry of emails that I received when I was unable to respond, I read yours (and quoted you in one of my recent emails), but I never welcomed you to the group. So, a belated but sincere welcome to you! It sounds like you have had a fascinating journey and it looks like you are in a good place to both teach and reach others who are just waiting for the opportunity to be afforded them to take another step in their knowledge of Who G-d is and what the Torah could mean in their lives. I think John?s advice is good. (BTW John, I am glad to see that you were offered and opportunity to teach and that you accepted it and it went well. That is great news!) Margie, I think you have a beautiful attitude and spirit to match and I cannot imagine you ever becoming UNteachable! I think you have made a good decision and am glad you are encouraged and are walking in it! Shavua tov (have a good week!) Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Margie Creech Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 7:32 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] re: what to do John, Thank you for the words of encouragement. We have decided to stay so that we can continue the Bible study on Tuesday nights. I have been sending everyone articles that I have collected over the years that include tons of scripture. Somehow it is easier to see truth when you read it for yourself instead of hammering people with it (as I have done at times). Sometimes I get so excited about how AWESOME G-d's Ways are that I forget how I felt when I began to discover that maybe what I'd been taught all my life by the church and my parents wasn't necessarily so. What I loved about my experience is that G-d first showed me in His Word and then confirmed through people who were finding out the same thing. I am learning everyday and am still blown away by how perfect His entire Word is. I love this group and have already been moved to look at things anew. My prayer is that I stay teachable. Margie Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/f4191778/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Feb 12 14:04:09 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:04:09 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who are these? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002801c86db2$726f4440$0200a8c0@marvin> Clyde, Yes, in answer to your question. Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called a house of prayer for all people. Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. When I read the quotes given by the NT characters, sometimes I wonder why did they give that answer, when it seem like there would have been so many other verse's that would have fit better. But then we have to get in their mind and understanding to understand what they were thinking. If that is possible.! I can just imagine Steve standing their with James in Acts 15 and asking the same questions that he ask this group. James looking at him with a twinkle in his eye and saying - I don't know it sounded good. :-) But, I am only kidding. I think James had an understanding we have not grasped yet. If not, then we have to put James in the camp of all the others who have come and gone and missed it. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. God has a long memory.. He does not forget any of the families and makes promise to them. I have only been able to find the phrase "tabernacle of David" in 3 places. Amos 9, the word for tabernacle is H5521 sook-kaw ' = a booth or hut. Isa 16:5 H168 o'-hel = home, tabernacle, tent., the sacred tent of Jehovah (the tabernacle) and in Acts 15. G4633 skay-nay' = a tent or cloth hut (literally or figuratively): - habitation, tabernacle. So, I was studying and thinking... yes, the "Tabernacle of David" as it represents the seat / throne where messiah would sit and the righteousness and judgment would go forth as in Isa.16:5 but this is not the verse James used. Is James looking at something else other then a tent / tabernacle like David brought up for the Ark? But the topic or question under discussion was.. "What about all the Gentiles?" And if my memory is correct, Acts 15 was 20 or 25 years after the DBR. In 15: 17 " all the gentiles upon whom my name is called". What does this have to do with the "hut / tent / booth, sook-kaw of David? From our lost tribe's study we have learned that there are Israelites who think they are gentile.. They were shifted but not a grain to be lost, and I think we would agree that these "gentiles" (lost tribes) along with those other gentiles will have a great part to play in the kingdom. Many times when we look at David and his promise's we focus on the throne and his seed and we then think Messiah... the end of the line. But, I keep seeing that there is more to David's seed then just the one we are looking for. marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who are these? Good points all - in your paper Marvin. Isaiah 56 kept coming to mind, was this in your thoughts, the ingathering of some aliens, with Israel? CB _____ The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/4bf986e9/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Feb 12 23:49:35 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:49:35 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802122149n3b0e3d41ra455e96b760110a5@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch, I would like to clarify my understanding of the Oral Law. I understand that it was given to Moses at Sinai to further explain the Torah. It was passed down orally and then written in what is known as the Talmud after the destruction of the 2nd temple. The Talmud is divided into 2 parts - the Mishnah & the Gemara. Is it correct that the Mishnah is what was actually given to Moses & the Gemara is commentary on the Mishnah as well as the Tanackh? The "fences" that were placed around the Torah to prevent unintentional sin, are they found in the Gemara? Also do you know if a reliable copy of the Talmud is available on line? Thanks, Kim On Feb 11, 2008 7:37 AM, wrote: > Shalom, v'Boker tov! > > I 've been asking lots of questions over the last number of weeks. > Now, I think it's YOUR turn - what is it that you folks have been > wondering? It doesn't need to be a question for me, or for anyone in > particular - but think, is there something you're looking to find out > about? > > Ask away! > *Hanoch *the Lil Lion of Judah > > > > ------------------------------ > Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/507d0a80/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 13 07:09:43 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:09:43 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Today's quote - 7 Adar 'I' 5768 Message-ID: Shalom v'Boker tov (from the Lekarev Report), Remember not the former things, neither consider the things of old. Behold, I will do a new thing; now shall it spring forth; shall you not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. Isaiah 43:18-19 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080213/4124ddc7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 13 07:23:14 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:23:14 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Message-ID: Hey Kim, You ask both a relatively simple question, and one that is a bit 'involved,' in several areas of it, as well. I'm running out the door to go to work right now, but I will answer you a bit later today, hopefully by tonight. Please be patient - thanks! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080213/9a67d307/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Feb 13 09:12:13 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:12:13 EST Subject: [Dialogue] IF IT IS NOT IN THE TORAH - IT IS NOT IN THE WORLD Message-ID: DR George Wesley Buchanan a friend whom both James and I are acquainted, explained to me a legal term in late second temple Judaism. If it is not in the Torah, it is not in the world. I take the statement to mean any creed, statement of faith, or Halakha, which does not have its foundation in Torah must be found spurious and rejected. Although I have not found the source for this axiom it rings as truth, therefore I accept it. I bring this up in relation to the term new covenant, which I think is a false term, when the most that can be made I think within the Torah and the Prophets, is a renewal of the covenant made at Sinai, as renewed in Duet, before passing into the promised land. That's in the Torah - so, how did the term new covenant originate? We do have sources when in late second century CE, the terms old and new testament was coined. Can anyone further elaborate on this issue and furnish sources? Thanks CB **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080213/e8f21dba/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Wed Feb 13 12:36:55 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:36:55 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802131036u77059e7bu874189b0e88d37d3@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch, I appreciate it. Take your time. I know you work crazy hours. Kim On Feb 13, 2008 7:23 AM, wrote: > Hey Kim, > > You ask both a relatively simple question, and one that is a bit > 'involved,' in several areas of it, as well. I'm running out the door to go > to work right now, but I will answer you a bit later today, hopefully by > tonight. Please be patient - thanks! > > Best regards, > > * Hanoch *the Lil Lion of Judah > > > > ------------------------------ > The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL > Music takes you there. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080213/453295b4/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Feb 13 18:55:45 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:55:45 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Who are these? In-Reply-To: <002801c86db2$726f4440$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <002801c86db2$726f4440$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <200802140056.m1E0uQjE023665@mail2525.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080213/2cbe9a1d/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Feb 13 19:27:23 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:27:23 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] David's seed Message-ID: <200802140127.m1E1RLM5016096@mail2535.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080213/b869992c/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Wed Feb 13 19:53:31 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:53:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who are these? In-Reply-To: <200802140056.m1E0uQjE023665@mail2525.carrierzone.com> References: <002801c86db2$726f4440$0200a8c0@marvin> <200802140056.m1E0uQjE023665@mail2525.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <001101c86eac$68ad5780$0200a8c0@marvin> Steve, The reference's you gave are right down the path I have been thinking on. I was looking at this one a few days ago. Gen 48:6 And thy issue, which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, and shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance. Gen 48:8 And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who are these? Gen 48:9 And Joseph said unto his father, They are my sons, whom God hath given me in this place. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them. Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. Joseph's sons were gentiles, were they not? Their mother was an Egyptian. As God brings back the lost tribes, I believe their will be Gentiles intermingled with the tribes. A mix multitude if you will, just like coming out of Egypt. Many times we are so focused on looking at or for the ONE , that we loose sight of the MANY. "The important prophecies of Isaiah about the suffering servant, are considered by Jewish as well as Christian scholars as referring to the people of Israel as a whole. In Isa. 49:3 the suffering servant is explicitly identified with Israel... all the so-called servant songs (Isa. 42:1-4, 49:1-6, 50:4-9, 52:13 - 53:12) have long been taken to speak of the sufferings of exiled Israel as personified in the "Servant of the Lord." The Messiah Texts, Raphael Patai, Pg.1. marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Who are these? Marvin and Clyde, Thank you for your thoughtful replies re some not so clear passages. If indeed James / Yaakov has an understanding of the particulars of this passage which we have not not yet grasped, then we are in for some surprises. It is my hunch that it is so, and what the message behind these passages is yet to be more fully revealed. I too thought of Isa 65, a bit earlier in one of my posts, because it seems that the Torah's applicability to all of humanity is the name of the game in this movement begun 2000 years ago, and it has always been so, and will always be so. This of course includes the restoration of the Ten Tribes and the regathering of all Israel. It also seems that we will have to do lot of Monday morning quarterbacking since we are finding out what is what as we go. The name of this string is "Who are these?" It reminds me of what Yaakov said in Gen. 48:6, and what is echoed in Isa.49:21, 63:16. I will have another "rubber meets the road" question or two on other strings. Thanks, Steve At 12:04 PM 2/12/2008, you wrote: Clyde, Yes, in answer to your question. Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called a house of prayer for all people. Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. When I read the quotes given by the NT characters, sometimes I wonder why did they give that answer, when it seem like there would have been so many other verse's that would have fit better. But then we have to get in their mind and understanding to understand what they were thinking. If that is possible.! I can just imagine Steve standing their with James in Acts 15 and asking the same questions that he ask this group. James looking at him with a twinkle in his eye and saying - I don't know it sounded good. :-) But, I am only kidding. I think James had an understanding we have not grasped yet. If not, then we have to put James in the camp of all the others who have come and gone and missed it. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. God has a long memory.. He does not forget any of the families and makes promise to them. I have only been able to find the phrase "tabernacle of David" in 3 places. Amos 9, the word for tabernacle is H5521 sook-kaw ' = a booth or hut. Isa 16:5 H168 o'-hel = home, tabernacle, tent., the sacred tent of Jehovah (the tabernacle) and in Acts 15. G4633 skay-nay' = a tent or cloth hut (literally or figuratively): - habitation, tabernacle. So, I was studying and thinking... yes, the "Tabernacle of David" as it represents the seat / throne where messiah would sit and the righteousness and judgment would go forth as in Isa.16:5 but this is not the verse James used. Is James looking at something else other then a tent / tabernacle like David brought up for the Ark? But the topic or question under discussion was.. "What about all the Gentiles?" And if my memory is correct, Acts 15 was 20 or 25 years after the DBR. In 15: 17 " all the gentiles upon whom my name is called". What does this have to do with the "hut / tent / booth, sook-kaw of David? From our lost tribe's study we have learned that there are Israelites who think they are gentile.. They were shifted but not a grain to be lost, and I think we would agree that these "gentiles" (lost tribes) along with those other gentiles will have a great part to play in the kingdom. Many times when we look at David and his promise's we focus on the throne and his seed and we then think Messiah... the end of the line. But, I keep seeing that there is more to David's seed then just the one we are looking for. marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who are these? Good points all - in your paper Marvin. Isaiah 56 kept coming to mind, was this in your thoughts, the ingathering of some aliens, with Israel? CB _____ The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080213/31bd6f6c/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Wed Feb 13 23:13:10 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:13:10 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah means "rain." References: Message-ID: <010f01c86ec8$4b39e8a0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Pat, As you wrote: "Torah is the blessing of G-d rained down upon men. May our hearts become as great reservoirs holding the Torah/Rain of HaShem as it is directed toward each of us according to His Purpose".. I say amen to that beautiful blessing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 8:32 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Torah means "rain." James mentioned in passing that the word, Torah, means rain. I had never realized this before - or if I had, it didn't sink in. The prime root of the word, "torah," is "yarah" (yud, reish, hay). Yarah means "to shoot, fire; to throw; to pour (water) - i.e. to rain." As I understand it, its secondary meaning is "to teach, instruct, direct, show, decide, enjoin, command." The root meaning of Torah can be to direct by shooting, as if firing at, or throwing towards a target, a fount of water. Rain is water being shot at a target. Some of the benefits of rain are sustenance, growth, cleansing, filling, and even dousing (which can put out "wild" fires). Torah Rain is aimed at specific targets to create specific results. For instance, there is Rain that falls only upon Levites that they may flourish. At other times the Rain falls only upon the women of the whole House of Israel, that they may grow and thrive. Yet another example is the Rainfall that benefits all of mankind. Those waters are directed to fall over vast areas of population to promote their health and welfare. Torah is the blessing of G-d rained down upon men. May our hearts become as great reservoirs holding the Torah/Rain of HaShem as it is directed toward each of us according to His Purpose. Pat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080213/75f25741/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 14 06:06:23 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:06:23 EST Subject: [Dialogue] For 8 Adar 'I' 5768 Message-ID: Shalom v'Boker tov, (from the Lekarev Report) Thus says Hashem, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the L-rd of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no G-d. Isaiah 44:6 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080214/fe5d1ba0/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Tue Feb 12 12:15:09 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:15:09 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] What was the schoolmaster/guardian? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a great Article. So very Torah based. Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:10 AM Subject: [Dialogue] What was the schoolmaster/guardian? Shalom: I have pasted in what a friend of mine has written. His name is Noel Rude - before retiring he was a professor of Languages at the University of Oregon. I would like to hear how some on the dialogue might view his take on the schoolmaster/guardian issue in Gal 3:24? Works of Torah By Noel Rude David Klinghoffer, in his Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History (Doubleday, 2005), lays down the gauntlet. Liberal Jews and Christians enter into ecumenical dialog and get absolutely nowhere. Why? Because they no longer believe in truth, says Klinghoffer. So Klinghoffer throws down the gauntlet to believers with the very nasty take on Jesus and Paul held by Jews. What is our response? We?d better be busy building our case, for the time may be upon us when believers from both houses of Israel can come together in disputation for the sake of the truth. So in what follows let me explore what I think is the Torah basis of one of Paul?s biggest beefs. Works of Torah Paul?s ?? ????? ????? ?by works of law? in Galatians ? if this were Hebrew I?d render it ???????? ??????? ?abodot Torah ?labors/services of Torah? and study it in light of Exodus. The story begins with Israel suffering under all manner of ???????, as in Exodus 1:14: ??????????? ????????????? ?????????? ?????? And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, ???????? ???????????? ??????????????? ?????????? in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: ??? ?????????????? ?????????????? ????? ?????????? all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour. This labor/service is mentioned several times and then there is the promise (Exodus 6): ? ????? ????? ?????????????????? 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, ????? ???? I am the LORD, ??????????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ????????? and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, ????????????? ??????? ??????????? and I will rid you out of their bondage, ???????????? ??????? ?????????? ???????? ????????????? ?????????? and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: ? ???????????? ??????? ??? ????? 7 And I will take you to me for a people, ?????????? ????? ????????? and I will be to you a God: ??????????? and ye shall know ???? ????? ???? ?????????? that I am the LORD your God, ?????????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ?????????? which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. Three times before Israel reaches Sinai the Passover is called a labor/service: Exodus 12:25???that ye shall keep this service [????????????? ????????????? ???????].? Exodus 12:26???What mean ye by this service [??? ????????? ??????? ?????]?? Exodus 13:5???that thou shalt keep this service in this month [??????????? ????????????? ??????? ????????? ??????].? So what was the Covenant? Renewed labor/service? No, just the opposite, as in what Judaism considers the first commandment (Ex 20:2): ??????? ?????? ????????? I am the LORD thy God, ?????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, ??????? ???????? out of the house of bondage. But after the sin of the golden calf (and there are good rabbinical sources for this, as well as Jeremiah 7:22-23), God burdened the people with the labors/services of the tabernacle. So in the rest of the book the word ??????? refers to this labor: ?All the vessels of the tabernacle in all the service thereof [????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????] ?? (Ex 27:19); ??the service of the tabernacle of the congregation [??????? ????? ??????] ?? (Ex 30:16); ?? to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service [?????????? ????? ?????? ?????????????????] ?? (Ex 35:21); ??for any work of the service [?????????????? ?????????] ?? (Ex 35:24); ?? to work all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary [???????? ????????????????? ??????? ?????????] ?? (Ex 36:1); ??for the work of the service of the sanctuary [?????????? ??????? ?????????] ?? (Ex 36:3); ??the service of the work [????????? ???????????] ?? (Ex 36:5); ??the service of the Levites [??????? ??????????] ?? (Ex 38:21); ??all the work of the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation [???????????? ????????? ????? ??????] ?? (Ex 39:32); ??all the vessels of the service of the tabernacle, for the tent of the congregation [??????????? ??????? ???????????? ??????? ??????]? (Ex 39:40); ? ? so the children of Israel made all the work [???? ?????? ?????? ?????????? ??? ??????????????]? (Ex 39:42). There is a tractate of the Talmud called ??????? ????? ?strange labor??which refers to idolatry. ?Idle hands are the devil?s workshop,? the old saying goes. And so Israel in the wilderness was put to work. And then when the Jews returned to build the Second Temple, the men of the great synagogue began adding more. Judah had endured cruel destruction and 70 years captivity for idolatry and Sabbath breaking?her leaders did not want a repeat, and so the admonition we read in the Mishna (Pirqe Abot 1:1): ?????? ?????? ??????? ???????? Moses received Torah from Sinai ?????????? ??????????? and transmitted it to Joshua ??????????? ?????????? and Joshua to elders ?????????? ??????????? and elders to prophets ??????????? ????????? ?????????? ??????? ??????????? and prophets transmitted it to the men of the Great Synagogue. ??? ??????? ????????? ???????? They said three things: ????? ????????? ???????? Be diligent in judgment, ???????????? ??????????? ???????? and establish many disciples, ???????? ????? ????????? and make a fence for the Torah. And so in addition to the liberty enshrined at Sinai there was at the time of Paul the Temple and its service plus the traditions (?fence for the Torah?) of the elders. So what was bothering Paul? The Glorious Liberty of the Sons of God On the positive side I believe that Paul is refocusing us on the liberty conferred at Sinai. Jesus had prayed to the God of Sinai (Jn 17:17), ?[T]hy word is truth.? He said (Jn 8:32), ?And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.? He says ?free?. James calls the Ten Commandments ?the law of liberty? (James 2:12) and ?the perfect law of liberty? (James 1:25). Would Paul have agreed? Paul, in one of the most beautiful sections of Romans, speaks of deliverance from bondage to liberty?which I think we can see as a midrash on Exodus (Rom 8:21), ?Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.? The bondage of corruption is the sin that dwells within?the evil inclination. The liberty is in the word of God. In yesterday?s Torah reading (August 11, 2007) Moses consoles the people of the covenant (Deut 14:1), ?Ye are the children of the LORD your God ?? And who did Jesus say are the children of God? He said that (Luke 20:36) ?the children of God [are] the children of the resurrection?! And what do the rabbis say? They agree! The Mishna again (Pirqe Abot 2:15): ?? but know that the reward of the righteous is given in the time to come [????? ?????? ???????? ???? ?????????? ???????? ??????]? If you have access to the ArtScroll Mishna Series commentary you will see the many quotes from rabbinical and Talmudic sources to this effect, how that what Paul calls ?the first commandment with promise? (Eph 6:2) really contains the promise of eternal life. But it?s not a promise removed from this world?it?s here where the problems are and where our fellow man groans in darkness?hence the resurrection from the dead which is basic in the New Testament (Hebrew 6:2) as also in Judaism where it?s in the prayer book as the Rambam?s 13th principle of faith: ????? ???????? ??????????? ???????? I believe with complete faith ??????????? ????????? ????????? that there will be a resurrection of the dead ?????? ??????????? ?????? ????? ????????? in the time when a desire arises from the Creator, ??????????? ?????? let his name be blessed ???????????? ??????? and his memory exalted ????? ????????? ???????? forever and for all eternity. For Paul the Ten Commandments are spirit or spiritual (Rom 7:14), ?For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.? And again (Rom 8:4), ?That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.? That means we keep the law! The epistle of Galatians supposedly overthrows the law?but note how it concludes with its admonitions to bear the fruits of the spirit and not fall prey to the baser urges of the flesh. The big problem is internalizing Torah such that we bear its fruits. A man who observes Torah is ?like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season ?? (Ps 1:3)?it is in this light we should read Galatians 5. Thus when Paul writes (Gal 5:1), ?Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage?, I take him to mean we are free to bear the fruits of Torah and should not get caught up in substitute systems and efforts that divert us from that cause. So it?s liberty?but not liberty to sin (verse 13-23), ?For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this [Lev 19:18]; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. ? But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.? The law contains only three positive commands, ? the first commandment (1st according to the rabbis is [you?ve got to hear David Fohrman on this], ?I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.? The New Testament agrees [Heb 11:6]: ?But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.?), ? the fourth commandment (remember the Sabbath), ? and the fifth commandment (honor your father and mother). The other seven commandments are negative?which is as it should be if this is a ?perfect law of liberty?. Why? Because God?s yoke is easy?just a few positive regulations (belief, Sabbath, honor) with mostly negative proscriptions (?thou shalt not?). Rome?s way and the Napoleonic code and the way of all statists is regulations piled upon regulations. In America, it used to be said, the law tells you what you cannot do, whereas in Europe you cannot do anything unless the law orders it. As Thomas Sowell brings out in his wonderful little book, The Quest for Cosmic Justice (Free Press, 2002), rule by judicial edict and labyrinthine regulation is bondage, but a few negative rules made public before the fact (written in stone) simple enough to be internalized by all (written in the heart) is the way of liberty. Thus the fruits of the spirit as regulated and restrained by in the Ten Commandments??against such there is no law.? We are free to bear fruit! Let me count the ways! A Schoolmaster, Not a Bribe Paul calls the ?law??by which he means the works/labors/service of Torah and by extension the fence around the Torah??our schoolmaster? (Gal 3:24, 25), ?????????? in Greek. A paedagog was not so much an advanced instructor as a family servant, one who takes the child to and from school, one responsible for the son?s safety, a baby sitter if you will. Elsewhere Paul contrasts this role with that of a teacher whom he likens to a father (1Cor 4:15), ?For though ye have ten thousand instructers [??????? ???????????] in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.? And so Paul?s ?works of law? (????? ?????/???????? ???????) neither were nor are something bad. People need structure and ritual and Paul is not saying that anyone should abandon such. Rather Luke records Paul saying (Acts 25:8): ?Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.? Note what it says of the celestial Jerusalem in exile (Rev 12:6): ?And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.? I find it interesting that 1260 years elapse from the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem (637)?the Muslim presence is still the thorn in Jerusalem?s side?to the founding of the World Zionist Organization by Theodor Herzl (1897). During that time ?Jerusalem? was nourished in the wilderness by rabbis, by prayers and rituals. The Sabbath, as they say, has kept the Jews more than the Jews have kept the Sabbath. Thus the nation was preserved?its integrity as a people, its language and Torah and traditions of interpretation. Much of this collapsed as Jews flocked to the secular atheism of the ?Enlightenment?, but it is still the regimen of the righteous as the tribe is being restored in the land (Gal 3:24-25): ?Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.? But the nation as a whole has yet to return to its God (Zech 12:10-14) and forsake the idols of agnosticism, secularism and socialism. It just may be that the fence for the Torah is too much for most people today. But rest assured the spirit is moving and the day is coming when, as it says (Hos 2:1-2[1:10-11]), ? ??????? ???????? ????????????????? ??????? ?????? 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, ?????? ?????????? ????? ???????? which cannot be measured nor numbered; ??????? ????????? ?????????????? ????? and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, ?????????? ?????? Ye are not my people, ??????? ????? there it shall be said unto them, ?????? ???????? Ye are the sons of the living God. ? ???????????? ????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? 11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, ???????? ????? ????? ????? and appoint themselves one head, ??????? ??????????? and they shall come up out of the land: ???? ?????? ???? ??????????? for great shall be the day of Jezreel. And so whereas the tabernacle and temple and sacrifices and fence for the Torah have served to preserve the nation, Israel as a whole has yet to repent and be forgiven. This, let me suggest, is what Paul means when he says (Gal 2:16), ?Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.? Israel needs national leadership that all can accept??one head??the real messiah as king who will take responsibility. To combat the fruits of the flesh that we too often bear there is no substitute for the law in our hearts. God accepts no bribe, as Moses says (Deut10:17), ?For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward?. That?s what Paul means when he says there is no justification ?? ????? ?????. There is no substitutionary sacrifice! Each man is responsible for his own sins and must repent and plead for mercy. Isn?t this the subject of the whole of Ezekiel 18? 1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. ? 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Thus there are no indulgences to purchase favor from the God of Israel. There is no tabernacle, no temple, no service, no ritual, no liturgy, no praise music, no circumcision, no sacred names, no buildings, no money, no special handshakes, no whoopin? and hollerin?, no burnt offerings, no trances, no sacred dance, no special offerings, no potlatches, no donations, no special words, no repetitious words, no vows of silence, no sacrifices, no dreams, no gifts, no prophecies, no moans, no groans, no prayers, no s?ances, no visitations, no incantations, no silence, no mystical experience, no emotion, no lack of emotion, no magic, no drug induced euphoria, no epiphany, no tattoo, no piercing, no rite of passage, no endurance test, no spiritual manifestation?NOTHING?nothing but the mercy of God and the Torah written in our hearts. No sacrifice?not even messiah?s death?directly expiates guilt. Only ?????????? t?shuvah (meaning a return to obedience) and the mercy of God. Are we the lost sheep of the house of Israel? Remember our forefathers (1Kings18:28), ?And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.? Israel has tried everything! Maybe it?s time for a little Jeremiah 31:33. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080212/76777787/attachment.html From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com Thu Feb 14 09:27:50 2008 From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:27:50 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul Message-ID: Shalom! Some of you may receive this note more than once. I apologize for that. I wanted to send out a quick note to let you all know that I have come up with an acceptable plan that allows me to restore and maintain balance in my life and teach again. I feel that God has given me a new sense of direction. I will be starting a Sunday Night class at the synagogue at 7 PM Central time. This will be called Sunday Shul and will last about an hour to an hour and a half. It begins this Sunday night. I will send out a more formal note of explanation to my general email list. I wanted all of you to get the news first. The class will be webcast live. Get ready! I'm coming back with new direction, a new zeal, and am excited about what is ahead of us at Roots of Faith. More to follow. Stay tuned! Thanks for your patience, prayers and many letters of encouragement. Please feel free to forward this note to any that you feel might be interested. In my newsletter I will tell more about this new class. His word is to me like a fire shut up in my bones - Jeremiah Check the web site for the links to listen in. I will include them in my newsletter as well. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols Cellular - 225.588.1575 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080214/1ba03982/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Thu Feb 14 09:42:08 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:42:08 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <360A0DAAF42C4416BF29BBADFB1EE2D2@Beeblebrox> His word is to me like a fire shut up in my bones - Jeremiah Dear Ross-----let the fire burn, it warms and fires-up all who come near! Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Nichols, Ross K. To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org ; uilist at unitedisrael.org Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul Shalom! Some of you may receive this note more than once. I apologize for that. I wanted to send out a quick note to let you all know that I have come up with an acceptable plan that allows me to restore and maintain balance in my life and teach again. I feel that God has given me a new sense of direction. I will be starting a Sunday Night class at the synagogue at 7 PM Central time. This will be called Sunday Shul and will last about an hour to an hour and a half. It begins this Sunday night. I will send out a more formal note of explanation to my general email list. I wanted all of you to get the news first. The class will be webcast live. Get ready! I'm coming back with new direction, a new zeal, and am excited about what is ahead of us at Roots of Faith. More to follow. Stay tuned! Thanks for your patience, prayers and many letters of encouragement. Please feel free to forward this note to any that you feel might be interested. In my newsletter I will tell more about this new class. His word is to me like a fire shut up in my bones - Jeremiah Check the web site for the links to listen in. I will include them in my newsletter as well. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols Cellular - 225.588.1575 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080214/f6e3c6d7/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Thu Feb 14 15:37:24 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:37:24 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul Message-ID: Hey Ross This is great news. I guess in our modern culture we should say shout it from the Web Cast, no need to get upon your housetop anymore - Technology in the service for God, I love it Looking forward for more information on the new direction. Clyde. **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080214/aca82aa2/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Nichols, Ross K." Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:27:50 -0600 Size: 10904 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080214/aca82aa2/attachment.mht From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 20:58:59 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:58:59 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Super terrific, Ross!!!! Can't wait! Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:27:50 -0600From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; uilist at unitedisrael.orgCC: Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul Shalom! Some of you may receive this note more than once. I apologize for that. I wanted to send out a quick note to let you all know that I have come up with an acceptable plan that allows me to restore and maintain balance in my life and teach again. I feel that God has given me a new sense of direction. I will be starting a Sunday Night class at the synagogue at 7 PM Central time. This will be called Sunday Shul and will last about an hour to an hour and a half. It begins this Sunday night. I will send out a more formal note of explanation to my general email list. I wanted all of you to get the news first. The class will be webcast live. Get ready! I?m coming back with new direction, a new zeal, and am excited about what is ahead of us at Roots of Faith. More to follow. Stay tuned! Thanks for your patience, prayers and many letters of encouragement. Please feel free to forward this note to any that you feel might be interested. In my newsletter I will tell more about this new class. His word is to me like a fire shut up in my bones ? Jeremiah Check the web site for the links to listen in. I will include them in my newsletter as well. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols Cellular - 225.588.1575 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080214/38548e22/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 14 22:29:26 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Who are these? Message-ID: <021520080429.25107.47B5151D000961720000621322193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> The point that Epraim and Manasseh were gentile is very interesting Marvin, I never thought about that. What does the Talmud say about that? I know that the biblical tradition is that the familial heritage is passed through the male but it is also important that bloodlines be kept pure. So it is interesting that the Torah is quite silent on this point in regards to Ephraim and Manasseh, Israel simply blesses them in Josephs stead and they become tribes of equal stature with the others. How can that be?. Hmmmm. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "mhyde" : -------------- Steve, The reference?s you gave are right down the path I have been thinking on. I was looking at this one a few days ago. Gen 48:6 And thy issue, which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, and shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance. Gen 48:8 And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who are these? Gen 48:9 And Joseph said unto his father, They are my sons, whom God hath given me in this place. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them. Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. Joseph?s sons were gentiles, were they not? Their mother was an Egyptian. As God brings back the lost tribes, I believe their will be Gentiles intermingled with the tribes. A mix multitude if you will, just like coming out of Egypt. Many times we are so focused on looking at or for the ONE , that we loose sight of the MANY. ?The important prophecies of Isaiah about the suffering servant, are considered by Jewish as well as Christian scholars as referring to the people of Israel as a whole. In Isa. 49:3 the suffering servant is explicitly identified with Israel?.. all the so-called servant songs (Isa. 42:1-4, 49:1-6, 50:4-9, 52:13 ? 53:12) have long been taken to speak of the sufferings of exiled Israel as personified in the ?Servant of the Lord.? The Messiah Texts, Raphael Patai, Pg.1. marvin From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Who are these? Marvin and Clyde, Thank you for your thoughtful replies re some not so clear passages. If indeed James / Yaakov has an understanding of the particulars of this passage which we have not not yet grasped, then we are in for some surprises. It is my hunch that it is so, and what the message behind these passages is yet to be more fully revealed. I too thought of Isa 65, a bit earlier in one of my posts, because it seems that the Torah's applicability to all of humanity is the name of the game in this movement begun 2000 years ago, and it has always been so, and will always be so. This of course includes the restoration of the Ten Tribes and the regathering of all Israel. It also seems that we will have to do lot of Monday morning quarterbacking since we are finding out what is what as we go. The name of this string is "Who are these?" It reminds me of what Yaakov said in Gen. 48:6, and what is echoed in Isa.49:21, 63:16. I will have another "rubber meets the road" question or two on other strings. Thanks, Steve At 12:04 PM 2/12/2008, you wrote: Clyde, Yes, in answer to your question. Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called a house of prayer for all people. Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. When I read the quotes given by the NT characters, sometimes I wonder why did they give that answer, when it seem like there would have been so many other verse?s that would have fit better. But then we have to get in their mind and understanding to understand what they were thinking. If that is possible.! I can just imagine Steve standing their with James in Acts 15 and asking the same questions that he ask this group. James looking at him with a twinkle in his eye and saying ? I don?t know it sounded good? J But, I am only kidding. I think James had an understanding we have not grasped yet. If not, then we have to put James in the camp of all the others who have come and gone and missed it. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. God has a long memory?. He does not forget any of the families and makes promise to them. I have only been able to find the phrase ?tabernacle of David? in 3 places. Amos 9, the word for tabernacle is H5521 sook-kaw ' = a booth or hut. Isa 16:5 H168 o'-hel = home, tabernacle, tent., the sacred tent of Jehovah (the tabernacle) and in Acts 15. G4633 skay-nay? = a tent or cloth hut (literally or figuratively): - habitation, tabernacle. So, I was studying and thinking?.. yes, the ?Tabernacle of David? as it represents the seat / throne where messiah would sit and the righteousness and judgment would go forth as in Isa.16:5 but this is not the verse James used. Is James looking at something else other then a tent / tabernacle like David brought up for the Ark? But the topic or question under discussion was?. ?What about all the Gentiles?? And if my memory is correct, Acts 15 was 20 or 25 years after the DBR. In 15: 17 ? all the gentiles upon whom my name is called?. What does this have to do with the ?hut / tent / booth, sook-kaw of David? From our lost tribe?s study we have learned that there are Israelites who think they are gentile?. They were shifted but not a grain to be lost, and I think we would agree that these ?gentiles? (lost tribes) along with those other gentiles will have a great part to play in the kingdom. Many times when we look at David and his promise?s we focus on the throne and his seed and we then think Messiah?.. the end of the line. But, I keep seeing that there is more to David?s seed then just the one we are looking for. marvin From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Who are these? Good points all - in your paper Marvin. Isaiah 56 kept coming to mind, was this in your thoughts, the ingathering of some aliens, with Israel? CB The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080215/d60ed7cd/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 15 06:49:48 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:49:48 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? Message-ID: Dear Kim, Thank you for your patience, I wish I could have gotten back to you sooner. Firstly, then next time you see Rav Uri, please ask for his take on things, okay? This is actually a very complex topic (not that your questions were, necessarily), so I have included three links below, for people to read up in the whole concept of the 'Oral Law' or better stated, the 'Oral Tradition.' And what I will be explaining will be the traditional Jewish view of the Oral Tradition. Firstly, the Mishnah, does comprises much of what you know as the 'Oral Law,' and was codified in the 2nd Century (CE), due to the turmoil in Eretz Yisrael (the Talmud Bavli was written down several hundred years later). But that's not all of the Oral Law - you would have to include those traditions referred to as 'Halachot L'Moshe Mi Sinai' - Laws given by HaShem to Moshe at Mt. Sinai, which were to remain oral, passed down carefully from generation to generation. Also, the principles of how to deduce new laws based on new circumstances, was also taught to Moshe. This has nothing to do with various Rabbinic decrees (Gezirot v'Takanot), of which some are discussed in the Talmudim (the Talmud Bavli - from Babylon, and the Talmud Yerushalmi from Eretz Yisrael...but not Jerusalem), but not all. There have been many Rabbinic decrees and gedarim - 'fences' that have been instituted to deal with the changing conditions of the world over the last several thousand years, and the various conditions that Jewish communities found themselves (there had to be a way to continually apply the Torah in all the circumstances that we find ourselves). The Talmud does discuss the Mishnah, and a large variety of other topics. It is written largely in Aramaic, although the Mishnah is in Hebrew - actually, clearly understandable Hebrew, as a matter of fact. Unfortunately, unless you are learning Talmud with someone with experience and background, it is close to incomprehensible - even in English! It was not written as you'd write minutes of a business meeting today, and follows a flow of logic that I've never been able to really 'get' very well. Not only is my colloquial Aramaic not great (I've never studied Talmud in English), but I'm not a linear thinker....my mind works in different (and bizarre..) ways. Not a good combination... I didn't have the time to check for the Talmud online, but I KNOW it exists, at least in parts, and I know that Bar Ilan University has it all on CD-Rom - it's sold on most of the Israeli product sites. I can help you search for it, if you'd like - just not until I go to Trader Joes to shop, and then make my vegetable soup.... LOL. Kim, I understand that you're trying to get at what HaShem said, not anyone else, but that's really the topic of a long conversation, perhaps in Charlotte? Anyway, here are the three links I mentioned - ALL are very good, and cover different points - WELL WORTH READING - see below. Shabbat Shalom!!! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _Click here: Light to the Nations - Rabbi Chaim Richman - The Oral Traditon - Excerpt from: The Mystery of the Red Heifer_ (http://www.lttn.org/oraltradition.html) _Click here: Oral Torah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah) I know of the guy who wrote this - he's very bright, in fact he and I sparred numerous times on another email list... _Click here: The Oral Tradition_ (http://www. aish.com/literacy/concepts/The_Oral_Tradition.asp) from Aish.com **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080215/a263a682/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 15 06:54:04 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:54:04 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom - 9 Adar 'I' 5768 Message-ID: Shabbat Shalom (from the Lekarev Report) You that dwell in the covered place of the Most High, and abide in the shadow of the Almighty; You will say of Hashem, He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust. Psalm 91:1-2 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080215/187ed2ec/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 15 07:07:35 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:07:35 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom - 9 Adar 'I' 5768 Message-ID: Shabbat Shalom (from the Lekarev Report) You that dwell in the covered place of the Most High, and abide in the shadow of the Almighty; You will say of Hashem, He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust. Psalm 91:1-2 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080215/51a59df1/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 15 07:39:21 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:39:21 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Great Israeli site - maps, graphs, info, etc Message-ID: Shalom v'Boker tov L'Kulchem, Below is a GREAT (as in G-R-E-A-T) site with lots of links to info about Israel and the 'security situation.' This is the kind of site that you'll want to send to your friends and relatives who are less 'in the know,' too! I hope it's helpful - enjoy! _Click here: IRIS: Information Regarding Israel's Security_ (http://www.iris.org.il/) Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080215/47debb8a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 15 07:48:13 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:48:13 EST Subject: [Dialogue] the latest - "Joseph was a Muslim..." Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim, Can you believe this?!?!? The BIg Lie....once again.... Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Biblical hero Joseph 'was really a Muslim' Aaron Klein - Feb 14, 2008 World Net Daily In the wake of an attempt by Palestinians to burn down Joseph's Tomb ? Judaism's third holiest site ? Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah faction issued a statement denying it will help restore the shrine, referring to both the shrine and the biblical patriarch as "Muslim." "Pay no attention to the rumors that we will work with Israel to restore the burial site of the holy Muslim Joseph," said the statement, issued from Nablus, the biblical city of Shechem. "We are going to guard this holy Muslim site." Joseph's Tomb is the believed burial place of the son of Jacob who was sold by his brothers into slavery and later became viceroy of Egypt. Palestinian security officials in Nablus said Monday they were called to the tomb to find 16 burning tires inside the sacred structure. A Palestinian police official who inspected the site told WND there was some fire damage to the tomb. He said the Palestinian Authority, fearing embarrassment, immediately formed a joint committee from the PA's Force 17, Preventative Security Services and Palestinian intelligence, to find out who was behind the fire. The move comes after Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced last week he would ask Israel's Defense Ministry to work with the PA to reconstruct and restore the tomb, parts of which were destroyed in 2000 by Palestinians, including known PA security officers. Under the 1993 Oslo Accords, which granted nearby strategic territory to the Palestinians, Joseph's Tomb was supposed to be accessible to Jews and Christians. But following repeated attacks against Jewish worshippers at the holy site by gunmen associated with then-Palestinian Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat's militias, then-Prime Minister Ehud Barak in October 2000 ordered an Israeli unilateral retreat from the area. Within less than an hour of the Israeli retreat, Palestinian rioters overtook Joseph's Tomb and reportedly began to ransack the site. Palestinian mobs reportedly tore apart books, destroying prayer stands and grinding out stone carvings in the Tomb's interior. A Muslim flag was hoisted over the tomb. Israel first gained control of Nablus and the neighboring site of Joseph's Tomb in the 1967 Six-Day War. The Oslo Accords signed by Arafat and Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin called for the area surrounding the tomb site to be placed under Palestinian jurisdiction but allowed for continued Jewish visits to the site and the construction of an Israeli military outpost at the tomb to ensure secure Jewish access. Following the transfer of control of Nablus and the general area encompassing the tomb to the Palestinians in the early 1990s, there were a series of outbreaks of violence in which Arab rioters and gunmen from Arafat's Fatah militias shot at Jewish worshipers and the tomb's military outpost. Six Israeli soldiers were killed, and many others, including yeshiva students, were wounded in September 1996 when Palestinian rioters and Fatah gunmen attempted to over take the tomb. Eventually, Israeli soldiers regained control of the site. The Palestinians continued to attack Joseph's Tomb with regular shootings and the lobbing of firebombs and Molotov cocktails. Security for Jews at the site increasingly became more difficult to maintain. Rumors circulated in 2000 that Barak would evacuate the Israeli military outpost and give the tomb to Arafat as a "peacemaking gesture." In early 2000, the Israeli army began denying Jewish visits to the tomb on certain days due to prospects of Arab violence. Following U.S.-mediated peace talks at Camp David in September 2000, Arafat returned to the West Bank and initiated his intifada. During one bloody week in October 2000, Fatah gunmen attacked the tomb repeatedly, killing two and injuring dozens, prompting Barak to order a complete evacuation of Judaism's third holiest site Oct. 6. **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080215/d59bc92a/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Feb 15 09:15:36 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:15:36 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Understanding Gal 4:10 Message-ID: Dear friends: In Ex 12:49 Yanovah said one Torah for Israel and the Gentile in their midst. I take this as an axiom commandment even where Judah or Israel is in the minority in the midst of Gentiles. I think we all understand that Paul's mission field was the synagogue where the gates were open to the Gentile G-D fearer, who had forsaken the god's of the nations. The following is my own view - without discounting the view of others, which I think the synagogue without walls which Ross has raised up is all about, that is free discussion that we might learn for each other. Therefore the following is presented as my opinion. Understanding Galatians 4:10 If Paul were forbidding the Gentile converts from keeping the Sabbath and the calendar festivals of God, then he would have been splitting the oneness of the Gentile converts from their Jewish brethren. There is one single word in Gal 4:10, that I think if we do not understand it, then we fall into the error of most New Testament scholars. Paul states in Galatians: ??You observe days, and months, and season, and years. I am afraid I have labored over you in vain? (Gal 4:10). In a surface reading, it sounds as though Paul is forbidding the Galatians to keep the Sabbath, and other observances with their Jewish believing brethren. If this is truly what Paul is forbidding the Gentile converts to keep, then he has split the assemblies where both the believing Jews and Gentiles meet together. The Jerusalem council in Acts 15, met for the purpose to set certain obligations for the Gentile convert ? in order for table meals between the believing Jews and Gentiles. Since the purpose was for the believers to be one body in Jesus Christ ? has Paul now come to believe there should be one body in Christ for the Jewish believer, and a separate body in Christ for the Gentile believer? Thankfully we have one scholar who authored a lengthy article on the Sabbath. Those who have access to the newer Anchor Bible Dictionary will find it helpful in Vol. 5 ? pp. 849-862 ? where a lengthy discourse on the Sabbath is discussed. A comment on p. 855, as it relates to the weekly Sabbath is telling. It reads: ??Within the context of the Galatians Judaizing heresy, ?Sabbath? seems to refer to something other than wholesome Sabbath-keeping as the majority opinion holds.? The author of the Sabbath discourse is insightful ? and as we hope to demonstrate ? Paul is criticizing the Galatians in departing from a wholesome Sabbath-keeping of the Torah. The problem is that the churches in Galatia are being persuaded to the oral strict commandments of the Pharisees which cause burdens that take away from a wholesome Sabbath keeping which should be a delight. The Greek word ?paratereo? points back to how the word was used when those of the strict Shammiaite Pharisee sect were ?watching? with sinister intent to catch Jesus breaking these strict oral traditions. It appears by Paul?s choice of the specific Greek word ?paratereo? which means watching with sinister intent would focus the Galatians back upon the ministry of Jesus. These same oral commandments of men that Jesus was being judged by were now being persuaded upon the churches in Galatia in how they should be keeping the Sabbaths and calendar festivals. In late second temple Judaism the Pharisees had made the written Torah of God with the added oral commandments one whole cloth. It was just as serious to break the commandments of the Pharisees as it was to disobey the commandments of God. By Paul pointing the Galatians back to how Jesus kept the Sabbaths and festivals, he was perhaps showing the wholesome way that the author in the Anchor Bible Dictionary, insightfully perceived. Had Paul been attempting to divide the body in which Jesus was the head ? that is a Gentile congregation separate from the messianic Jewish congregations; then Paul would have been in direct violation to the teaching of oneness that Jesus taught. How was Jesus Judged? >From the synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, certain of the strict Pharisees were quick to Judge Jesus in matters of the oral commandments that were added to the written Torah of God. The Greek word that Paul used in Gal 4:10), is also used in Mark 3:2; Luke 6:7; 14:1; 20:20; Acts 9:24. In the synoptic gospels, these strictest of Pharisees watched Jesus with sinister intent, to catch him breaking the oral added laws. In Acts 9:24, Paul was intensely watched with sinister intent to kill him. To assume that Paul was abolishing any form of Sabbath-keeping by the churches in Galatia seems to be an ill-informed assumption. Since God is one, Jesus asks his disciples to remain as one as he is of one mind with the Father, therefore, when the correct understanding is applied to Gal 4:10, it appears that Paul is admonishing the Galatians to return back to the wholesome Sabbath-keeping of the written Torah as Jesus did. To observe the Sabbaths with the strict burdens that were added as the commandments of men, turns the Sabbaths from a delight into rigorous legalism. It appears that those who were troubling the churches in Galatia were claiming works as a means of gaining justification. Furthermore, the Sabbath restrictions, as the commandments of men, were placing the Galatians in bondage. The right way to observe and keep the Sabbaths and Holy convocations were in the same manner as Jesus kept and observed them. Paul, in using the specific Greek word, ?paratereo? (which means watching with sinister intent) points the Galatians back to the example of Jesus. There is an incident recorded in the gospel of Matthew where certain of the strictest of the Pharisees accuse the disciples of Jesus for failing to obey the hand-washing ritual that has been instituted. The ritual was more than just washing hands before one eats. A pitcher of water was drawn, and poured over the right hand and a blessing repeated. The same was then poured over the left hand and a second blessing recited. The disciples were not practicing this commandment that was instituted by the Pharisees. In Matt 15:1-2, the Pharisees came to Jesus with accusation against his disciples who were eating with ritually unwashed hands. In vs. 3 -6, Jesus asks: ??And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, Honor your father and mother, and anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death. But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, what ever help you might otherwise received from me is a gift devoted to God, he is not to honor his father with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.? This is a clear case where the traditions of the Pharisees actually break the very commandments of God through their man made rules. It seems obvious that these same man- made commandments were being taught to the churches in Galatia, in regard to how the Sabbaths and holy days are to be kept. Paul appears to be calling for restoring the Sabbaths back to how Jesus kept them. To follow some of the man- made restrictions is to break the commandments of God. Rather than abolish the wholesome keeping of the Sabbaths as Jesus kept them, Paul is restoring the correct keeping of Sabbaths, and not abolishing them as has traditionally been taught. >From the Greek and Latin church patriarchs and church fathers through their misunderstanding of Paul?s teaching abolished the seventh day Sabbath and the calendar festivals of God. In their place they adopted Sun-day a former pagan observance. And that was not all. The Passover festival which pointed to the Passover death of Jesus was eliminated in favor of ?Easter? which was also a former pagan worship. When all is said and done and at the end of the day - for those reading this article, all must in their own way make choices. If this article addresses the teaching of Paul as Torah observant, and he taught the Gentile convert Torah observance ? then those who love the truth will make the correct choice and keep the Sabbaths of Yahovah. Response by Noel Rude Ah, Galatians 4:10! ?????? ???????????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????????. ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ??????????? ? yawme? w?yar?e? w?zabne? wa?nay?? n??r?t?n Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. That?s really, really interesting! If ???????????? suggests a critical observation of others? observance?that would make great sense. I do not believe that the Peshitta?s ??????????? ?ye observe? has this connotation, and so in this instance Galatians makes sense only in the Greek. Well I think you?re really getting to the core of Paul?bit by bit. Here, for what it? s worth I?ll list the other occurrences of this verb. Mark 3:2 ??? ?????????? ????? And they watched him, ?? ???? ???????? ?????????? ?????, whether he would heal him on the Sabbath day; ??? ????????????? ?????. that they might accuse him. Luke 6:7 ???????????? ?? ????? ?? ?????????? ??? ?? ????????? And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, ?? ?? ?? ??????? ?????????, Whether he would heal on the Sabbath day; ??? ??????? ?????????? ?????. that they might find an accusation against him. Luke 14:1 ??? ??????? And it came to pass, ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????? as he went into the house ????? ??? ???????? [???] ????????? ??????? ?????? ????? of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the Sabbath day, ??? ????? ???? ?????????????? ?????. that they watched him. Luke 20:20 ??? ?????????????? And they watched him, ?????????? ?????????? and sent forth spies, ?????????????? ??????? ???????? ?????, which should feign themselves just men, ??? ??????????? ????? ?????, that they might take hold of his words, ???? ?????????? ????? that so they might deliver him ?? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ????????. unto the power and authority of the governor. Acts 9:24 ??????? ?? ?? ????? ? ???????? ?????. But their laying await was known of Saul. ???????????? ?? ??? ??? ????? And they watched the gates ?????? ?? ??? ?????? day and night ???? ????? ????????? to kill him. ____________ _ ____________ **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080215/03140b3f/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 15 09:31:11 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:31:11 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Understanding Gal 4:10 Message-ID: <021520081531.21124.47B5B038000792650000528422193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Thanks Clyde, This is very much along the lines of the conclusions I have been coming to. Good stuff. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from CBrown4465 at aol.com: -------------- Dear friends: In Ex 12:49 Yanovah said one Torah for Israel and the Gentile in their midst. I take this as an axiom commandment even where Judah or Israel is in the minority in the midst of Gentiles. I think we all understand that Paul's mission field was the synagogue where the gates were open to the Gentile G-D fearer, who had forsaken the god's of the nations. The following is my own view - without discounting the view of others, which I think the synagogue without walls which Ross has raised up is all about, that is free discussion that we might learn for each other. Therefore the following is presented as my opinion. Understanding Galatians 4:10 If Paul were forbidding the Gentile converts from keeping the Sabbath and the calendar festivals of God, then he would have been splitting the oneness of the Gentile converts from their Jewish brethren. There is one single word in Gal 4:10, that I think if we do not understand it, then we fall into the error of most New Testament scholars. Paul states in Galatians: ??????You observe days, and months, and season, and years. I am afraid I have labored over you in vain??? (Gal 4:10). In a surface reading, it sounds as though Paul is forbidding the Galatians to keep the Sabbath, and other observances with their Jewish believing brethren. If this is truly what Paul is forbidding the Gentile converts to keep, then he has split the assemblies where both the believing Jews and Gentiles meet together. The Jerusalem council in Acts 15, met for the purpose to set certain obligations for the Gentile convert ??? in order for table meals between the believing Jews and Gentiles. Since the purpose was for the believers to be one body in Jesus Christ ??? has Paul now come to believe there should be one body in Christ for the Jewish believer, and a separate body in Christ for the Gentile believer? Thankfully we have one scholar who authored a lengthy article on the Sabbath. Those who have access to the newer Anchor Bible Dictionary will find it helpful in Vol. 5 ??? pp. 849-862 ??? where a lengthy discourse on the Sabbath is discussed. A comment on p. 855, as it relates to the weekly Sabbath is telling. It reads: ??????Within the context of the Galatians Judaizing heresy, ???Sabbath??? seems to refer to something other than wholesome Sabbath-keeping as the majority opinion holds.??? The author of the Sabbath discourse is insightful ??? and as we hope to demonstrate ??? Paul is criticizing the Galatians in departing from a wholesome Sabbath-keeping of the Torah. The problem is that the churches in Galatia are being persuaded to the oral strict commandments of the Pharisees which cause burdens that take away from a wholesome Sabbath keeping which should be a delight. The Greek word ???paratereo??? points back to how the word was used when those of the strict Shammiaite Pharisee sect were ???watching??? with sinister intent to catch Jesus breaking these strict oral traditions. It appears by Paul???s choice of the specific Greek word ???paratereo??? which means watching with sinister intent would focus the Galatians back upon the ministry of Jesus. These same oral commandments of men that Jesus was being judged by were now being persuaded upon the churches in Galatia in how they should be keeping the Sabbaths and calendar festivals. In late second temple Judaism the Pharisees had made the written Torah of God with the added oral commandments one whole cloth. It was just as serious to break the commandments of the Pharisees as it was to disobey the commandments of God. By Paul pointing the Galatians back to how Jesus kept the Sabbaths and festivals, he was perhaps showing the wholesome way that the author in the Anchor Bible Dictionary, insightfully perceived. Had Paul been attempting to divide the body in which Jesus was the head ??? that is a Gentile congregation separate from the messianic Jewish congregations; then Paul would have been in direct violation to the teaching of oneness that Jesus taught. How was Jesus Judged? >From the synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, certain of the strict Pharisees were quick to Judge Jesus in matters of the oral commandments that were added to the written Torah of God. The Greek word that Paul used in Gal 4:10), is also used in Mark 3:2; Luke 6:7; 14:1; 20:20; Acts 9:24. In the synoptic gospels, these strictest of Pharisees watched Jesus with sinister intent, to catch him breaking the oral added laws. In Acts 9:24, Paul was intensely watched with sinister intent to kill him. To assume that Paul was abolishing any form of Sabbath-keeping by the churches in Galatia seems to be an ill-informed assumption. Since God is one, Jesus asks his disciples to remain as one as he is of one mind with the Father, therefore, when the correct understanding is applied to Gal 4:10, it appears that Paul is admonishing the Galatians to return back to the wholesome Sabbath-keeping of the written Torah as Jesus did. To observe the Sabbaths with the strict burdens that were added as the commandments of men, turns the Sabbaths from a delight into rigorous legalism. It appears that those who were troubling the churches in Galatia were claiming works as a means of gaining justification. Furthermore, the Sabbath restrictions, as the commandments of men, were placing the Galatians in bondage. The right way to observe and keep the Sabbaths and Holy convocations were in the same manner as Jesus kept and observed them. Paul, in using the specific Greek word, ???paratereo??? (which means watching with sinister intent) points the Galatians back to the example of Jesus. There is an incident recorded in the gospel of Matthew where certain of the strictest of the Pharisees accuse the disciples of Jesus for failing to obey the hand-washing ritual that has been instituted. The ritual was more than just washing hands before one eats. A pitcher of water was drawn, and poured over the right hand and a blessing repeated. The same was then poured over the left hand and a second blessing recited. The disciples were not practicing this commandment that was instituted by the Pharisees. In Matt 15:1-2, the Pharisees came to Jesus with accusation against his disciples who were eating with ritually unwashed hands. In vs. 3 -6, Jesus asks: ??????And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, Honor your father and mother, and anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death. But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, what ever help you might otherwise received from me is a gift devoted to God, he is not to honor his father with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.??? This is a clear case where the traditions of the Pharisees actually break the very commandments of God through their man made rules. It seems obvious that these same man- made commandments were being taught to the churches in Galatia, in regard to how the Sabbaths and holy days are to be kept. Paul appears to be calling for restoring the Sabbaths back to how Jesus kept them. To follow some of the man- made restrictions is to break the commandments of God. Rather than abolish the wholesome keeping of the Sabbaths as Jesus kept them, Paul is restoring the correct keeping of Sabbaths, and not abolishing them as has traditionally been taught. From the Greek and Latin church patriarchs and church fathers through their misunderstanding of Paul???s teaching abolished the seventh day Sabbath and the calendar festivals of God. In their place they adopted Sun-day a former pagan observance. And that was not all. The Passover festival which pointed to the Passover death of Jesus was eliminated in favor of ???Easter??? which was also a former pagan worship. When all is said and done and at the end of the day - for those reading this article, all must in their own way make choices. If this article addresses the teaching of Paul as Torah observant, and he taught the Gentile convert Torah observance ??? then those who love the truth will make the correct choice and keep the Sabbaths of Yahovah. Response by Noel Rude Ah, Galatians 4:10! ????????????? ????????????????????????? ??????? ??????????? ??????? ??????????????? ??????? ???????????????????. ???????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????????????? ?? yawme?? w??yar???e?? w??zabne?? wa??nay???? n?????r??t??n Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. That???s really, really interesting! If ????????????????????????? suggests a critical observation of others??? observance???that would make great sense. I do not believe that the Peshitta???s ?????????????????????? ???ye observe??? has this connotation, and so in this instance Galatians makes sense only in the Greek. Well I think you???re really getting to the core of Paul???bit by bit. Here, for what it???s worth I???ll list the other occurrences of this verb. Mark 3:2 ??????? ???????????????????? ???????????? And they watched him, ????? ????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????, whether he would heal him on the Sabbath day; ??????? ?????????????????????????? ????????????.that they might accuse him. Luke 6:7 ????????????????????????? ????? ???????????? ????? ????????????????????? ??????? ????? ??????????????????? And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, ????? ????? ????? ??????????????? ??????????????????, Whether he would heal on the Sabbath day; ??????? ??????????????? ????????????????????? ????????????.that they might find an accusation against him. Luke 14:1 ??????? ??????????????? And it came to pass, ????? ????? ?????????????? ???????????? ??????? ??????????? as he went into the house ?????????? ??????? ????????????????? [???????] ?????????????????? ??????????????? ????????????? ??????????? of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the Sabbath day, ??????? ???????????? ????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????.that they watched him. Luke 20:20 ??????? ???????????????????????????? And they watched him, ????????????????????? ????????????????????? and sent forth spies, ????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????,which should feign themselves just men, ??????? ??????????????????????? ???????????? ??????????, that they might take hold of his words, ????????? ????????????????????? ???????????? that so they might deliver him ????? ?????????? ??????? ????? ???????????????? ??????? ?????????????????.unto the power and authority of the governor. Acts 9:24 ??????????????? ????? ????? ??????????? ??? ?????????????????? ????????????. But their laying await was known of Saul. ????????????????????????? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????????? And they watched the gates ????????????? ???? ??????? ?????????????day and night ????????? ???????????? ???????????????????to kill him. ____________ _ ____________ The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080215/8222fbcf/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 15 12:03:53 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:03:53 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Why the Israeli government does (or doesn't) do things.... Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, When we read the news from Israel, many of us keep wondering WHAT's GOING ON?!?!? The article below gives some background to the lengths that the truth is being held back due to 'politics.' The Hellenists fight against the Torah in every generation.... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Civil Fights: Sacrificing democracy on the altar of peace Evelyn Gordon, THE JERUSALEM POST February 14, 2008 Reactions to the Winograd report once again laid bare a chronic ill of both Israeli democracy and the "peace process": the pervasive belief among members of Israel's self-described "peace camp" that what the public thinks about talks with the Palestinians is irrelevant; enlightened leaders must pursue an agreement regardless of the public's views - and in service of this lofty goal, any perversion of democracy is acceptable. Prior to the report's publication, leftist politicians and columnists argued almost monolithically that however culpable it found Ehud Olmert for the Second Lebanon War's failures, new elections must be avoided, because the polls predict victory for Binyamin Netanyahu, a peace process skeptic. As Meretz chairman Yossi Beilin explained, the Right "wants to stop talks with Fatah, and believes, according to the polls, that this is the chance of a lifetime. That is exactly why I have no interest in supporting such a move." Beilin advocated replacing Olmert from within the cabinet, but most of his fellow leftists dispensed even with that nicety. Haaretz's star columnist, Yoel Marcus, for instance, repeatedly argued that Olmert must stay, since his ouster might lead to elections, and the Left cannot risk the election of a premier opposed to final-status talks. Following the report's publication, Winograd Commission member Yehezkel Dror echoed this reasoning, telling Ma'ariv that "a peace process, if successful, will save so many lives that it is a weighty consideration," and therefore, "we must think about the consequences. What do you prefer, a government with Olmert and [Ehud] Barak, or new elections that will put Netanyahu in power?" Even if, as Dror claims, this represented guidance to voters on how to decide rather than his personal opinion, the bottom line is the same: Far from deeming public support essential for such fateful negotiations, Dror, like Marcus and Beilin, views the voters' seeming preference for an opponent of the talks as justification for thwarting their choice by retaining a failed premier. THIS HAS been the Left's attitude toward the "peace process" from its inception. When Yitzhak Rabin lacked a Knesset majority for the Oslo-2 accord, for instance, he solved the problem by buying the votes of two legislators from a far-Right party that vehemently opposed Oslo. Specifically, he promised them a ministry and deputy ministry, with all the attendant financial perks. This was blatantly illegal, as the Supreme Court subsequently ruled. But Rabin and his successor, Shimon Peres, solved that problem by amending the law, retroactively. And rather than condemning this perversion of democracy, the entire Left lauded it, deeming any means kosher to advance the peace process. Ariel Sharon's disengagement also demonstrated contempt for democracy. Despite having been elected on an explicit pledge not to quit Gaza unilaterally, he declined to seek the public's consent to his U-turn via either new elections or a referendum. He did call a referendum in his own party, but ignored the results when he lost 60-40. This is hardly standard democratic practice: When, for instance, Charles de Gaulle wanted to break a campaign promise to remain in Algeria, he did call a referendum (and won resoundingly). Yet Sharon's refusal to seek a new public mandate won plaudits from the Left. This trampling of democratic norms for the sake of the peace process, with the Left's almost unanimous support, has been devastating to Israel's democracy. It is no accident that the worst blow Israeli democracy ever suffered, Rabin's assassination, occurred a mere month after the Oslo-2 vote: When democratic processes are subverted by open vote-buying, with enthusiastic support from politicians and the media, extremists can easily convince themselves that the lack of a democratic alternative justifies resorting to violence. IT IS also no accident that right-wing violence reached new heights following the disengagement - for instance, during the Amona evacuation six months later. For two years, rightists did everything good democrats are supposed to do. They worked to elect an anti-withdrawal candidate in 2003, and won. They went door-to-door to convince Likud members to defeat disengagement in the party referendum, and won again. But their victories proved worthless: Sharon simply ignored them, to widespread applause from politicians and the media. The obvious conclusion was that democratic efforts are pointless, so violence is the only alternative. Nor is it an accident that voter turnout reached an all-time low in the first election following the disengagement. If a politician can renounce his entire platform after winning, refuse to seek a new mandate, and be applauded for it, what is the point of voting? But if the peace uber alles attitude has been devastating to democracy, it has, ironically, been equally detrimental to prospects for peace. Few would deny that ongoing Palestinian terror hinders these prospects. And one reason this terror persists is that none of the relevant parties deem widespread Israeli support for the peace process essential. If the Palestinian Authority thought future withdrawals depended on such support, it might feel constrained to win over Israelis by abandoning terror. If the international community thought withdrawals depended on such support, it might feel constrained to pressure the PA into fighting terror. But why should either go to the trouble if Israeli governments are willing instead to subvert the democratic process, making public opinion irrelevant? The problem is that Israel is still a democracy, however flawed - and therefore, peace will ultimately not be possible without public support. As successive withdrawals bring Palestinian terror closer to major population centers, the extent and intensity of the opposition to withdrawal will grow. And eventually, it will become too great to circumvent through anti-democratic tactics. Buying two Knesset votes is easy. Buying 20 is much harder. Thus by collaborating in the subversion of democracy for the sake of peace, the Left has undermined both of its proclaimed flagship ideals. Not only has it increased the likelihood of anti-democratic violence by eroding the public's faith in democratic processes, it has also eroded public support for the peace process by reducing the PA's incentive to combat terror. Unfortunately, it is not the Left alone that suffers for this blindness. All of Israel is paying the price. ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 _mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org _ (mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org) _http://www.womeningreen.org _ (http://www.womeningreen.org/) **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080215/e343609f/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 15 12:29:06 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:29:06 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Article: "Genetics and Jewish Identity" Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, Below is a fascinating article that was just in the Jerusalem Post - I thought you'd find it of interest. I'd be interested to see if we all notice the same things in the article...looking forward to hearing from some folks....Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah (http://www.jpost.com/) . Genetics and Jewish Identity Seemingly out of the blue, a group of genetics researchers announced that they had evidence to support that story. The group, led by Israeli researcher Dr. Karl Skorecki, himself a kohen, reported that the evidence was in the DNA of one of the 46 chromosomes that each kohen carries. Skorecki realized that Y chromosomes, which confer male sex, are passed down, just as the status of kohen is, from father to son. And like all chromosomes, the Y always displays a pattern of mutations called a "haplotype" that varies across family groups, and therefore can be used to trace descent. Thus, any haplotypes that were on Aaron's Y chromosome ought to appear with only minor changes in all of his descendants, including modern kohanim if they were in fact Aaron's offspring. In other words, kohanim should share a common genetic signature. And so they do. A distinctive haplotype, now known as the "kohen modal haplotype," was found in 45 percent-61% of Ashkenazi kohanim, 56%-69% of Sephardi kohanim and 10%-15% of other male Jews. The haplotype is estimated to be between 2,100 and 3,250 years old, a time range that includes the biblical period. Only a decade since that study was published, it is hard to recover the surprise with which the world greeted the findings. Skepticism over the historicity of the Bible had led to widespread doubt that Jews descended from the ancient Israelites, let alone that the kohanim descended from the biblical Aaron. More recent data suggest that the percentage of kohanim with the telltale haplotype may be somewhat lower than the initial estimates. But the fidelity of transmission of kohanic identity is nonetheless remarkable. What about the Levi'im? The obvious next step was to ask whether the DNA of the Levi'im also shows descent from a single ancestor. According to the Bible, all Levi'im, who had a separate ritual role in the ancient Temple, descend from Jacob's son Levi. However, Y chromosome haplotypes of the Levi'im have proven much more diverse than those of kohanim. Although a haplotype common to 52% of Ashkenazi Levi'im was found, the origins of this genetic marker appear to derive from central Asia - not the Middle East - and it is essentially absent from Levi'im of Sephardi descent. Genetics and the Jewish identity ____________________________________ DIANA MUIR APPELBAUM and PAUL S. APPELBAUM, MD , THE JERUSALEM POST Feb. 11, 2008 ____________________________________ The Book of Exodus specifies that the male descendants of Aaron, the brother of Moses, should constitute the Jewish priesthood - the kohanim - "for all time." Jewish tradition holds that the status of kohen has been faithfully passed from father to son for more than 3,300 years. In 1997 the world was amazed to learn that the old Bible story had found new and very persuasive scientific support Where did that central Asian haplotype come from? Most Jews are vaguely aware of the Khazars; their king plays the role of interlocutor in Yehuda Halevi's 12th-century defense of Jewish doctrine, The Kuzari. The Khazars, however, were not a mere literary device. They were a real people with a major kingdom north of the Caspian Sea, and in the eighth or ninth century the Khazar leaders and some of the people converted to Judaism. After the 10th century, they disappear from history. The common ancestor of the Ashkenazi Levi'im who carry this particular haplotype lived less than 2,000 years ago. A good guess is that at roughly the time the Khazar kingdom disappeared, a very small number of closely related individuals with the tradition of being Levi'im, or perhaps only a single male, came from the general region of the Khazar kingdom to join the then-small Ashkenazi community in Europe. If this is so, it may indicate that the Khazar Jews had created a native class of Levi'im. Jews and their neighbors: The Diaspora Genetic researchers have not neglected more than 90% of Jews who are neither kohanim nor Levi'im. They began with good reason to suspect that a great deal of mixing had taken place during the millennia of dispersion. People had noticed, after all, that the pale-skinned redheads common in Lithuanian Jewish communities do not look much like petite, dark-haired Jews from Yemen. It was assumed that Jews were bound more by tradition than by genetic kinship, that in the distant past Jewish men had followed opportunity to some far-off city, married local girls, persuaded them to separate the meat and milk dishes and founded new Jewish communities. Moreover, it was believed non-Jewish ancestors had continued to mix into the Jewish community. The idea that the traditional story - Jews driven into exile faithfully marrying only fellow Jews - might be largely true was startling. And yet, so it seems. There were, of course, times and places where significant numbers of people converted to Judaism. But in the centuries since the beginnings of European Jewry, the best available estimate is that a mere 0.5% of new material entered the gene pool of Ashkenazi Jews in each generation. This is part of a picture of remarkable Jewish genetic continuity emerging from research labs at a dizzying rate. More studies have been carried out on the genetic history of the Jews than on most ethnic groups, perhaps because there are so many Jewish doctors to take advantage of the fabled willingness of Jews to participate in research. These studies not only show that almost all Jewish populations have origins in the Middle East, but that the DNA of Jews from almost every corner of the Diaspora is more similar to that of other Jews than to any other population. When compared with non-Jewish groups, the closest match is with the Muslims of Kurdistan, not with the European peoples alongside whom Ashkenazi Jews lived for centuries or the Arab neighbors of many Sephardi populations. Other groups with histories of ancient migrations do not have the same degree of continuity. Hungarians are known to have originated on the Eurasian steppe and moved westward in a migration many centuries long, arriving in the Carpathian basin about 995 CE. They speak a language from the steppe, take pride in their history of migration and military conquest and expected that genetic research would demonstrate their central Asian origins. The evidence to date, however, has shown a varying but quite small element of central Asian ancestry in Hungarian populations, along with great similarities between Hungarians and their Slavic and German neighbors. This does not mean that the Hungarians with Slavic ancestry are not real Hungarians. Rather, Hungarian culture has been so powerfully attractive that for many centuries people of Slavic, Germanic and other ancestry elected to join the Hungarian people. Ironically, the genetic distinctiveness of the Jews in part may reflect the unattractiveness of joining a religious minority that was oppressed and impoverished through much of its history. Jews and their neighbors: The Middle East With Jews looking increasingly like a relatively cohesive population largely of Middle Eastern origin, the logical next question is how close a genetic relationship exists with other Middle Eastern groups. A study of Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs published in 2000 by Israeli researchers revealed what the authors described as "a relatively recent common ancestry." It was greeted with euphoric proclamations that Palestinians and Jews are "brothers." A closer look at the details of the study gives reason for pause. The researchers compared Jews and Palestinians to a sample of people from Wales. When compared with the Welsh, Jews and Palestinians did indeed look similar, as they probably would if contrasted with Trobriand Islanders. When the same research team conducted a follow-up study comparing Jews and Palestinian Arabs to Kurds, Armenians, Turks, Syrians, Jordanians, Lebanese and Beduin, they saw a very different picture. Although all Middle Eastern populations have broad similarities, "Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors." This could mean that Jews, Kurds, Armenians and Anatolian Turks all carry the genetic markers of ancient indigenous populations of the Fertile Crescent, while Palestinian Arabs and Beduin may largely descend from the Arab conquerors, with their distinctive genetic signifiers. Genetics may eventually provide answers to such questions as what proportion of Palestinian ancestry arrived via earlier or later migrations. So far we have only partial explanations. One of the most compelling studies compared the small Samaritan population in Israel with Druse, Palestinians and Jews from various parts of the Diaspora. The results appear to corroborate the traditional Samaritan belief that they have lived in Samaria since antiquity and are closely related to the Jews. Only four Samaritan family lineages survive, but of those four male lines, three carry the kohen modal haplotype, while the fourth, the Cohen family of priests, does not. The data indicate that the Samaritans generally married other Samaritans. Y chromosome DNA shows the Samaritan male line to have "a much greater affinity" to Jews than to the Palestinian Arabs who have surrounded them since the Arab conquest. Studies of Jewish women The ease of tracing male lineages with the Y chromosome accounts for the large body of research that uses exclusively male populations. However, another technique allows equivalent explorations of the female line. Every cell of our bodies contains mitochondria, small organelles that generate energy from food. Each mitochondrion harbors its own circular strand of DNA, which both sexes inherit from their mothers, and which is passed on only by women to the next generation. The utility of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) studies is demonstrated by recent findings concerning one of the least known Jewish groups: the Bene Israel, descendents of 6,000 Jews "discovered" on the west coast of India by Jewish traders from Baghdad in the 1830s. They carry the kohen modal haplotype along with other Middle Eastern genetic markers, and have substantial mtDNA found only in the Indian population among whom they lived - always keeping the Sabbath - for hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years. From the genetic evidence, it looks as though a small group of Jews, all or mostly male, arrived on the Indian coast, married local women and built a Jewish community. Studies of mitochondrial DNA suggest that Jewish communities were often founded by very small numbers of women. One study demonstrates that 27% of Moroccan, 41.3% of Bene Israel and 51.4% of all Georgian Jews are descended from a single female ancestor in each community. The matriarch of 41.3% of the Bene Israel came from a local Indian family. We do not know the origins of that founding mother of the Georgian Jewish community or even whether she was born to a Jewish family, only that she carried a distinctive haplotype found in an area stretching from Sicily to the Caucasus to Iraq. The Bukharan, Persian, Ethiopian, Iraqi and Ashkenazi Jewish communities all have unusually small numbers of maternal ancestors. This could reflect communities founded by tiny numbers of Jewish women willing to travel with their husbands to far-off lands, or situations like the Bene Israel's, where a community was founded at least in part by a small number of women who married Jewish men and lived as Jews. A bit of light recently has been thrown on part of this picture by a study of the mtDNA of Ashkenazi women, close to half (42%) of whom are descended from one of just four matriarchs. The distinctive, complete sequence haplotypes carried by descendents of these four women are almost unknown in other populations, except occasionally in Jewish communities that trace their origin to the expulsion from Spain. The evidence indicates that these four female ancestors most probably originated in the Levant, perhaps accompanying their husbands from the Middle East to their new homes. Even Samaritan mtDNA has been examined, showing distinctive patterns about equally different from Jewish and Palestinian comparison groups, and hence with somewhat more mixing than in the male line. Genetics of the "lost tribes" Jews and Christians alike have an endless fascination with stories of the "lost tribes" of Israel turning up in odd parts of the world. Witness the recent enthusiasm about the Bnei Menashe in the hills of eastern India. Few such groups have been studied by geneticists, but when they are, the results can be remarkable. Perhaps the most surprising story in Jewish genetics involves the Lemba, a Bantu-speaking people of about 50,000 living in southern East Africa. Their appearance and lifestyle are largely similar to other Bantu-speaking groups, with a few notable exceptions: They practice circumcision, have a ritualized slaughter procedure for animals, avoid eating pigs and have a strong tradition that their ancestors migrated from "Sena in the north by boat." When westerners came into contact with the Lemba and noticed the similarity of their customs to Jewish practices, they wondered whether "Sena" might be Sana in Yemen and whether the Lemba were of Jewish descent. A British anthropologist arranged for genetic testing of members of the tribe, finding that 10% of Lemba men carry the kohen modal haplotype on their Y chromosomes. Even more impressive, the Lemba have a priestly clan whom they call the Buba. Fully 52% of Buba men who were tested bear that same marker of kohanic descent. Although mtDNA testing has not yet taken place, it seems likely that the origins of at least some portion of the tribe date back to the arrival on African shores of male Jews, and their subsequent marriage to local women. Only vestigial Jewish traditions were maintained among a population that is animist and Christian in practice. In no sense - cultural or halachic - can the Lemba be considered Jews today. But their story demonstrates the power of DNA to elucidate the probable history of many populations. Genetics and identity What genetic data cannot tell us is who is a Jew. The answers to that question are, variously, halachic, political and cultural. On a purely technical level, there is no genetic screen that can sort Jews from non-Jews. Population differences do not translate into reliable tests of individual lineage. What genetics can tell us is something about where our ancestors came from - no more. It cannot tell us who we are. Nor can it tell us who we want to become, as individual Jews or as a Jewish people. As new data emerge from genetics laboratories, though, we are likely to learn a great deal more about the history of our people. Diana Muir Appelbaum is the author of Reflections in Bullough's Pond: Economy and Ecosystem in New England (University Press of New England, 2000), and is working on a book on nationalism. Paul S. Appelbaum is the Elizabeth K. Dollard Professor of Psychiatry, Medicine and Law at Columbia University, and writes about the ethics of genetic testing and research. **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080215/c72ff4b7/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Feb 15 13:54:10 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:54:10 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what do YOU want to know? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802151154w5fd7f4b4i5ef1b74e5a3a057b@mail.gmail.com> Thank you for this. Hope to have some time next week to start looking at it. Shabbat Shalom, Kim On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 6:49 AM, wrote: > Dear Kim, > > Thank you for your patience, I wish I could have gotten back to you > sooner. Firstly, then next time you see Rav Uri, please ask for his take on > things, okay? This is actually a very complex topic (not that your > questions were, necessarily), so I have included three links below, for > people to read up in the whole concept of the 'Oral Law' or better stated, > the 'Oral Tradition.' And what I will be explaining will be the traditional > Jewish view of the Oral Tradition. > > Firstly, the Mishnah, does comprises much of what you know as the > 'Oral Law,' and was codified in the 2nd Century (CE), due to the turmoil in > Eretz Yisrael (the Talmud Bavli was written down several hundred years > later). But that's not *all *of the Oral Law - you would have to include > those traditions referred to as 'Halachot L'Moshe Mi Sinai' - Laws given by > HaShem to Moshe at Mt. Sinai, which were to remain oral, passed down > carefully from generation to generation. Also, the principles of how to > deduce new laws based on new circumstances, was also taught to Moshe. This > has nothing to do with various Rabbinic decrees (Gezirot v'Takanot), of > which *some *are discussed in the Talmudim (the Talmud Bavli - from > Babylon, and the Talmud Yerushalmi from Eretz Yisrael...but not Jerusalem), > but not all. > > There have been many Rabbinic decrees and gedarim - 'fences' that have > been instituted to deal with the changing conditions of the world over the > last several thousand years, and the various conditions that Jewish > communities found themselves (there had to be a way to continually apply the > Torah in all the circumstances that we find ourselves). The Talmud *does > *discuss the Mishnah, and a large variety of other topics. It is written > largely in Aramaic, although the Mishnah is in Hebrew - actually, clearly > understandable Hebrew, as a matter of fact. > > Unfortunately, unless you are learning Talmud with someone with > experience and background, it is close to incomprehensible - even in > English! It was not written as you'd write minutes of a business meeting > today, and follows a flow of logic that I've never been able to really 'get' > very well. Not only is my colloquial Aramaic not great (I've never studied > Talmud in English), but I'm not a linear thinker....my mind works in > different (and bizarre..) ways. Not a good combination... > > I didn't have the time to check for the Talmud online, but I KNOW it > exists, at least in parts, and I know that Bar Ilan University has it all on > CD-Rom - it's sold on most of the Israeli product sites. I can help you > search for it, if you'd like - just not until I go to Trader Joes to shop, > and then make my vegetable soup.... LOL. > > Kim, I understand that you're trying to get at what HaShem said, not > anyone else, but that's really the topic of a long conversation, perhaps in > Charlotte? Anyway, here are the three links I mentioned - ALL are very > good, and cover different points - WELL WORTH READING - see below. > > Shabbat Shalom!!! > *Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah* > ** > Click here: Light to the Nations - Rabbi Chaim Richman - The Oral > Traditon - Excerpt from: The Mystery of the Red Heifer > > Click here: Oral Torah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > I know of the guy who wrote this - he's very bright, in fact he and I > sparred numerous times on another email list... > > Click here: The Oral Tradition > from Aish.com > > > > > > ------------------------------ > The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL > Music takes you there. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080215/166830ec/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Feb 16 21:21:00 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:21:00 EST Subject: [Dialogue] There aren't any coincidences any longer... Message-ID: Shavua Tov/Buena Semana to all! I hope you all had a physically restful and intellectually stimulating Shabbat. Well, it seems that the last few months have led me to more then a few of what I would have once called, coincidences, but have recently realized that they really aren't, it seems. This past Friday morning, I put up a number of posts, including one about the Islamo-Nazis, who, having burned and destroyed the Tomb of Yosef (Joseph), NOW claim he was a muslim! This is in Shechem - the third holiest city in Judaism (behind Jerusalem and Hevron), which we shamefully abandoned at the start of the Oslo War. Back to Friday morning...so I turned off my computer to go shopping (Trader Joes!), and as I left my building, I turned on my cell phone and heard a message from my daughter Kyra in Israel. It seems that her plans for Shabbat had changed, and she was going to the 'settlement' of Har Bracha - which overlooks Shechem!!! So, she was going to be overlooking our beloved city, which is currently one of the sections of Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) that is arab-occupied....which I had just written to you folks about.... Coincidence? Yeah, it could be, but I'm starting to think that there aren't any....I've included some important info and a picture of Har Bracha below. Best regards for a meaningful week, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Har Bracha is the site of the biblical 'Mount of Blessings' (Deuteronomy 11:29), which is the inspiration for the settlement's name. Mount Grizim is also the site of the ancient Samaritan Temple, where the Samaritan community continues the tradition of the Passover sacrificial offering to this day. The Samaritan Synagogue and community are adjacent to Har Bracha. Har Bracha was established in 1983 by a small group of dedicated idealists. Today the settlement consists of 60 young families, most with kindergarten and grade school children. **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080216/4ae1380c/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Feb 16 22:01:27 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:01:27 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] There aren't any coincidences any longer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003201c87119$c5514d60$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Hanoch, Thank-you for sharing this special non-coincidental little incident and the photos below. I love it when things like this happen! It sort of confirms that we are on the same "wave length" with the people that we love. May the blessings proclaimed from Mt. Har Bracha come to pass and may Schechem and the tomb of Joseph soon be recovered and restored to its rightful owners so that it may receive the veneration that it deserves! How despicable it is to claim that Joseph was a Muslim! Speaking of Islamo-Nazis, did you see the most recent totally depraved ploy of Hamas regarding the creating of a children's show with a cute little rabbit named Assud that recently aired on a popular TV show? In his first debut saying among other things, the cute little rabbit says that he was going to "finish off the Jews and eat them!" I think I received it on Tuesday, from Arutz Sheva, but have been sick and am now playing catch-up with email. Thanks for all the interesting articles you forwarded including 2nd Temple Evidence, Jewish Genetics, and more and also your quotes for the week. Shavua tov, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:21 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] There aren't any coincidences any longer... Shavua Tov/Buena Semana to all! I hope you all had a physically restful and intellectually stimulating Shabbat. Well, it seems that the last few months have led me to more then a few of what I would have once called, coincidences, but have recently realized that they really aren't, it seems. This past Friday morning, I put up a number of posts, including one about the Islamo-Nazis, who, having burned and destroyed the Tomb of Yosef (Joseph), NOW claim he was a muslim! This is in Shechem - the third holiest city in Judaism (behind Jerusalem and Hevron), which we shamefully abandoned at the start of the Oslo War. Back to Friday morning...so I turned off my computer to go shopping (Trader Joes!), and as I left my building, I turned on my cell phone and heard a message from my daughter Kyra in Israel. It seems that her plans for Shabbat had changed, and she was going to the 'settlement' of Har Bracha - which overlooks Shechem!!! So, she was going to be overlooking our beloved city, which is currently one of the sections of Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) that is arab-occupied....which I had just written to you folks about.... Coincidence? Yeah, it could be, but I'm starting to think that there aren't any....I've included some important info and a picture of Har Bracha below. Best regards for a meaningful week, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Har Bracha is the site of the biblical 'Mount of Blessings' (Deuteronomy 11:29), which is the inspiration for the settlement's name. Mount Grizim is also the site of the ancient Samaritan Temple, where the Samaritan community continues the tradition of the Passover sacrificial offering to this day. The Samaritan Synagogue and community are adjacent to Har Bracha. Har Bracha was established in 1983 by a small group of dedicated idealists. Today the settlement consists of 60 young families, most with kindergarten and grade school children. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080216/bd361ed2/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 17 06:41:48 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 07:41:48 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, but whose country is it?? Message-ID: Boker tov L'Kulchem, Please read this article carefully and pass it along...we have already waited too long... Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah What if an Arab was elected Prime Minister of Israel? by Nadia Matar Denial is a well-known psychological mechanism. A threatening problem is created. The individual denies the problem for a certain amount of time, but it eventually explodes in his face. The people of Israel are in total denial regarding the problem of Israeli Arabs. After watching a video recording of a demonstration by Israeli Arabs in Haifa, I decided that the time has come to raise this issue, knowing full well that this is a subject that many people are afraid to touch. The video recording that appears on the "Netnet" web site shows a recent demonstration in Haifa.(See link to the video at the end of the article). We see in the video scores of Arabs waving flags of Palestine and chanting anti-Israel slogans. Here are a few quotes from the report by Boaz Golan that accompanies the recording: "The Jews who live in the German Colony in Haifa are in shock. Their ears do not want to hear, and woe to the eyes that see ... Here in Haifa, under the Bahai gardens, right next to the Haifa Municipality's Tourist Association - here, in our home, in a state that is talking about its 60th [anniversary] celebrations, right here, we live as if in a prison. Here, in our home, the Arabs are raising their heads ... This infuriating demonstration lasted for days. A Palestinian demonstration against the state, against the public at large, against the Jewish people. Against me and against you. Flags of Palestine fly in the face of passersby. Gaza is here in Haifa, in our very home! Jewish drivers pass by, honk their horns, and call out to them: "Go to Gaza," but scores of Arabs continue to chant their slogans against the state, and are not afraid to shout out loud: "Beirut," "Damascus," "Palestine"! ... This is how the State of Israel is ... in a country in which corruption runs wild and Arabism flourishes." The demonstration in Haifa is, of course, only one of the many examples of the dramatic rise in the nationalistic extremism of Israeli Arabs, that is expressed not only in chanting anti-Israel slogans, but also in acts and in violence against Jews. Naturally, in all these instances, the "Israeli law enforcement" system, does not lift a finger. In Akko and in Jaffa Israeli Arabs attack Jews. No one says anything, True, a few Members of Knesset came to show their shock before the cameras. Dozens of young couples have moved to these cities, in order to strengthen the Jewish residents. This positive initiative is to be applauded, but, at the present time, there can be no doubt that this act is like giving aspirin to a cancer patient. Recently we hear of stone throwing at Jewish vehicles by Israeli Arabs in Galilee. This hardly makes the headlines. Just imagine what the media would have done if Jews had thrown stones at Arabs! Jewish girls walking about in malls in the north where there is an Arab majority suffer sexual harassment, and take their lives in their hands if they just go shopping. Does this bother anyone? Is anyone willing to say, right out loud: "In Israel in 2008, Israeli Arabs are attacking Jews"? No, everyone remains silent and denies the problem. Last year, dozens of Jews celebrated Yom ha-Atzmaut (Israel Independence Day) in the forest of Megiddo. A group of Israeli Arabs arrived, with flags of Palestine, riding on horses, and forced the Jews to flee from the city. Except for the Arutz 7 web site, did anyone cover this subject? Not to mention that the police did not arrest even a single Arab rioter. And what about the quiet and nonviolent Arab conquest that is being conducted in many places in Israel? Anyone who visits the Hadassah-Mount Scopus and Hadassah-Ein Karem hospitals could mistakenly think that he was in Ramallah. There are countless Arab doctors, and hundreds of Arab patients and Arab clans in the corridors. The situation is the same in the universities, the courts, and so on... Jewish children no longer play in the Liberty Bell Garden, between the Inbal Hotel and the King David Hotel. It has been "conquered" by hundreds of Arab families, and Jewish mothers fear to bring their children there. Make no mistake. Unlike other countries, in which minorities act with respect and submission to the host country, a considerable portion of the Israeli Arabs act as if they were the lords of the land, while we Jews seem to them as causal visitors who bother them! I ask: is this the "Jewish State" of which its founders dreamed? The government of Israel relates to this issue from a quite interesting direction. A few days age we were informed that Interior Minister Meir Sheetrit is acting to establish a new Arab city, apparently in the Galilee. "No New Arab City Has Been Established Since the Establishment of the State," cry out the newspaper headlines in favor of a new Arab city. Truly, there is no better way to portray the Israeli government that is celebrating 60 years since the establishment of the Jewish state: a government that freezes all Jewish construction in Judea, Samaria, and even in the capital Jerusalem, and instead of this channels its resources and money into the establishment of an Arab city. I don't know whether to cry or laugh bitterly. The left and the Arab street, of course, are full of joy and elation. But why does the national camp remain silent? Where is the outcry? Where are the rabbis who are supposed to remind us that, on account of "show them no quarter" (Deuteronomy 7:2), we must not allow non-Jews to encamp in Israel? This means: it is forbidden to sell them a house, it is forbidden to rent them a house. And it certainly is forbidden to build them a city. And just what is the meaning of an "Arab city"? Will they put a sign at the entrance to the city: "No Entry for Jews"? Is there actually any "Jewish city" in the State of Israel? Israeli Arabs can live in any city in Israel. Arabs live in Haifa, Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan, Jerusalem, and after the anti-Zionist ruling by Aharon Barak, Arabs also moved to Katzir and Harish. If Jews, in contrast, would dare to buy in Umm el-Fahm, Daliyat al-Karmil, Baka el-Garbiye, or any other Arab village in Galilee or the Negev, it is clear to all that they would be subject to a pogrom, just as the Druze did to make the city of Peki'in free of Jews a few months ago. As you remember, in late October 2007, Druze used the pretext of a new cellular antenna to riot against the Jewish families in the town. Jewish houses and cars were torched; tens of Israeli policemen were wounded; one policewoman was held hostage. The end result: all Jewish families left Pekiin and have not returned yet. (see links to articles about Pekiin riots at the end of the article). And if we continue to be silent about this topic, what will happen in another twenty years? Will anyone relate to these questions? The left tells us that we must "separate ourselves" from Judea and Samaria in order to preserve Israel as a Jewish state. This, however, is the false propaganda of the anti-Jewish left, that dreams of the destruction of the Jewish settlement in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, for no reason other than hatred for the settlers, and that attempts to advance its dream by spreading empty slogans. The Arabs of Judea and Samaria do not constitute a threat to the State of Israel. They are not citizens. It is specifically Israeli Arabs who threaten Israel as a Jewish state. Why is no one in our camp willing to propose a solution to the issue of Israeli Arabs in a country that wants to be a Jewish state? Rabbi Benny Elon's Israel Initiative relates to the Arabs of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, while Avigdor Leiberman's "exchange of territories" idea should be categorically rejected, since it speaks of handing over parts of the land of Israel to Arabs. The only one who dared to broach this subject was Rabbi Meir Kahane, of blessed memory, may G-d avenge his blood. In 1980, when he was in the Ramle prison, he wrote a book entitled They Must Go (the Hebrew title means "Stings in Your Eyes," from the verse in the book of Numbers [33:55]: "But if you do not dispossess the inhabitants of the land, those whom you allow to remain shall be stings in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land in which you live"). Based on the Jewish halakhah, and supported by dozens of historical examples of other peoples who struggled with hostile minorities that lived in their midst, Rabbi Kahane proposed that we separate ourselves from the Arabs. Only in this way will Israel be able to survive as a Jewish state. The details of the plan and the ways to implement them are set forth in his book. Despite its having been written in 1980, it is still extremely relevant. We can either accept or reject what Rabbi Kahane wrote, but one thing is clear: we cannot continue to ignore this question. If we continue to bury our heads in the sand, one day we will wake up after elections and hear the broadcaster announce in the news: It's an upheaval! After Arab mayors were elected in Haifa, Beersheva, and Jerusalem a few years ago, today an Arab Prime Minister has been elected in Israel! Mabruk and Salaam Aleikum!" And what will we do then? True, many people are afraid to touch the issue, for fear of being accused of "racism." But we cannot lose the Jewish state out of "fear of racism." If an Israeli government minister is not accused of racism for establishing an Arab city free of Jews, and if all the members of the Sharon government, who expelled our brethren from Gush Katif and northern Samaria just because they were Jews, were not accused of racism, then I an certain that the charge of racism will not be raised against those who propose deposing the present government and replacing it with a government that will advance the idea of a truly Jewish state - which means: Jewish sovereignty over all of Eretz Yisrael and Jewish control of its future. Since the hostile Arab minority will not be pleased by this,everyone will eventually understand that separation is the only solution: The Jews in Eretz Yisrael, and the Arabs in the Arab countries. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to the video about the Arab demonstration in Haifa: (the text is in Hebrew but one does need to speak Hebrew to understand what is going on on the video) _http://www.netnet.co.il/showart.php?art_id=853 _ (http://www.netnet.co.il/showart.php?art_id=853) Ynet article: Last Jewish family leaves Pekiin after riots: _http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3478336,00.html _ (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3478336,00.html) Ynet article: Druze vandalize Jewish property: _http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466794,00.html _ (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466794,00.html) Ynet article: Policewoman recounts "hell" in Pekiin: _http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466059,00.html _ (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466059,00.html) ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 _mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org _ (mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org) _http://www.womeningreen.org _ (http://www.womeningreen.org/) **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/fd9b118b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 17 06:56:20 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 07:56:20 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] There aren't any coincidences any longer... Message-ID: Dear Betty, Thank you very much for your note, I'm glad that you've found the articles of interest. It's a little funny that you wrote - I was thinking of you a lot over Shabbat, and actually 'felt' your presence...Not sure what that was all about, but still sending good vibes your way!! :-) I'll try to write more about it later, but off to work now.... Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now, we ALL know that Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/76e6b704/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 17 07:05:35 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 08:05:35 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A quote for today - 11 Adar 'I' 5768 Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Today's quote seemed obvious to me... "But if you do not dispossess the inhabitants of the land, those whom you allow to remain shall be stings in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land in which you live" Numbers 33:55 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/7707d1df/attachment.html From creechmargie at yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 11:28:39 2008 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 09:28:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] a site worth viewing Message-ID: <268801.64340.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> To all in the group, I found this site and it stirs within me such a love for Judah. Please let us all remember to pray for the peace of Jeresalem and that the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob protect our brothers . We surely live in troubled times. My prayer is give me wisdom and ears to hear your voice. He is truely a Mighty G-d!!!!! He is my hero. Margie Creech http://www.shechem.org/kyos/engkyos.html Zechariah 10:6-12 I will give victory to the House of Judah, and triumph to the House of Joseph: I will restore them, for I have pardoned them, And they shall be as though I had never disowned them; For I the Lord am their G-d, And I will answer their prayers. Ephraim shall be like a warrior, And they shall exult as with wine; Their children shall see it and rejoice, The shall exult in the Lord. I will whistle to them and gather them, For I will redeem them; They shall increase and continue increasing. For though I sowed them among the nations, In the distant places they shall remember Me, They shall escape with their children and shall return. I will bring them back from the land of Egypt And gather them from Assyria; And I will bring them to the lands of Gilead and Lebanon, And even they shall not suffice for them. A hemmed in force shall pass over the sea And shall stir up waves in the sea; And all the deeps of the Nile shall dry up. Down shall come the pride of Assyria, And the scepter of Egypt shall pass away. But I will make Judah and Ephraim mighty through the Lord, And they shall march proudly in His name. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/6179c9bb/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 17 14:24:52 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:24:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] a site worth viewing In-Reply-To: <268801.64340.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <268801.64340.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA3FBA49298A8F-15F0-1E2F@FWM-M19.sysops.aol.com> Dear Margie, ??? Thank you for your heartfelt support and your pleas for G-d to hear all of our prayers.? My youngest daughter just spent Shabbat at the small town/village (it's NOT a 'settlement') of Har Bracha, which is on Har Grizim, which overlooks Shechem.? May the time for HIS judgement against our enemies be NOW. ???? Best regards, ???????? Hanoch?? the Lil Lion of Judah ?? -----Original Message----- From: Margie Creech To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:28 pm Subject: [Dialogue] a site worth viewing To all in the group, I found this site and it stirs within me?such a love for Judah.? Please let us all remember to pray for the peace of Jeresalem and that the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob protect our brothers . We surely live in troubled times.? My prayer is? give me wisdom and ears to hear your voice.? He is truely a Mighty G-d!!!!!? He is my hero.?? ? Margie Creech ? ? ? http://www.shechem.org/kyos/engkyos.html ? ? Zechariah 10:6-12? I will give victory to the House of Judah, and triumph to the House of Joseph:? I will restore them, for I have pardoned them, And they shall be as though I had never disowned them;? For I the Lord am their G-d, And I will answer their prayers.? Ephraim shall be like a warrior, And they shall exult as with wine; Their children shall see it and rejoice, The shall exult in the Lord.? I will whistle to them and gather them, For I will redeem them; They shall increase and continue increasing.? For though I sowed them among the nations, In the distant places they shall remember Me, They shall escape with their children and shall return.? I will bring them back from the land of Egypt And gather them from Assyria;? And I will bring them to the lands of Gilead and Lebanon, And even they shall not suffice for them.? A hemmed in force shall pass over the sea? And shall stir up waves in the sea; And all the deeps of the Nile shall dry up.? Down shall come the pride of Assyria, And the scepter of Egypt shall pass away.? But I will make Judah and Ephraim?mighty through the Lord, And they shall march proudly in His name. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/d365f618/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 17 14:45:21 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:45:21 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] While I was looking through the Tanach... Message-ID: <8CA3FBD25B96D29-15F0-1EEE@FWM-M19.sysops.aol.com> Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, ?? A quote for this afternoon, as I was browsing through the Tanach: ????????????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah "Woe to the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Keretim!? the word of the L-rd is against you; O Kena'an, the land of the Pelishtim, I will destroy thee, so that there shall be no inhabitant.? And the sea coast shall be pastures, and meadowsfor shepherds, and folds for flocks.? And it shall be an allotment for the remnant of the house of Yehuda; they shall feed there; in the houses of Ashqelon they shall lie down in the evening;? for the L-rd their G-d shall remember them, and restore their captivity." ???????????????????????????????????????? Zephaniah 2:5-8 ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/4921f8d2/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Feb 17 14:59:35 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:59:35 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Ross/ROF Message-ID: <005601c871a8$02406c40$6400a8c0@davesbook> dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Cole To: UI List Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: Ross/ROF A reminder.....Please tune in tonight at 7pm CST for the first broadcast of the Sunday Night Shul. You can find the information on how to tune in by going to the rootsoffaith.org web site and following the instructions posted. Hope to see ya there! dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/b761f950/attachment.html From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 17 16:03:27 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:03:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] a site worth viewing In-Reply-To: <268801.64340.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <715510.92646.qm@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Margie, Thank you so much for sharing this site. While viewing I had goosebumps and chills up my spine. We pray the Hand of HaShem will rach out to that entire region soon and very soon. He is the ONLY One who can bring the "true" peace the world is waiting for, and so desperately is in need of. Many blessings to you and yours, Linda Margie Creech wrote: To all in the group, I found this site and it stirs within me such a love for Judah. Please let us all remember to pray for the peace of Jeresalem and that the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob protect our brothers . We surely live in troubled times. My prayer is give me wisdom and ears to hear your voice. He is truely a Mighty G-d!!!!! He is my hero. Margie Creech http://www.shechem.org/kyos/engkyos.html Zechariah 10:6-12 I will give victory to the House of Judah, and triumph to the House of Joseph: I will restore them, for I have pardoned them, And they shall be as though I had never disowned them; For I the Lord am their G-d, And I will answer their prayers. Ephraim shall be like a warrior, And they shall exult as with wine; Their children shall see it and rejoice, The shall exult in the Lord. I will whistle to them and gather them, For I will redeem them; They shall increase and continue increasing. For though I sowed them among the nations, In the distant places they shall remember Me, They shall escape with their children and shall return. I will bring them back from the land of Egypt And gather them from Assyria; And I will bring them to the lands of Gilead and Lebanon, And even they shall not suffice for them. A hemmed in force shall pass over the sea And shall stir up waves in the sea; And all the deeps of the Nile shall dry up. Down shall come the pride of Assyria, And the scepter of Egypt shall pass away. But I will make Judah and Ephraim mighty through the Lord, And they shall march proudly in His name. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now._______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/27e15eb9/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Feb 17 16:25:04 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:25:04 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] a site worth viewing In-Reply-To: <268801.64340.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <268801.64340.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Margie for sending us this terrific site, and Zecharia 10:6-12 to fill our hearts with hope. (He's my hero too!!!) Love, Pat Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 09:28:39 -0800From: creechmargie at yahoo.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] a site worth viewing To all in the group, I found this site and it stirs within me such a love for Judah. Please let us all remember to pray for the peace of Jeresalem and that the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob protect our brothers . We surely live in troubled times. My prayer is give me wisdom and ears to hear your voice. He is truely a Mighty G-d!!!!! He is my hero. Margie Creech http://www.shechem.org/kyos/engkyos.html Zechariah 10:6-12 I will give victory to the House of Judah, and triumph to the House of Joseph: I will restore them, for I have pardoned them, And they shall be as though I had never disowned them; For I the Lord am their G-d, And I will answer their prayers. Ephraim shall be like a warrior, And they shall exult as with wine; Their children shall see it and rejoice, The shall exult in the Lord. I will whistle to them and gather them, For I will redeem them; They shall increase and continue increasing. For though I sowed them among the nations, In the distant places they shall remember Me, They shall escape with their children and shall return. I will bring them back from the land of Egypt And gather them from Assyria; And I will bring them to the lands of Gilead and Lebanon, And even they shall not suffice for them. A hemmed in force shall pass over the sea And shall stir up waves in the sea; And all the deeps of the Nile shall dry up. Down shall come the pride of Assyria, And the scepter of Egypt shall pass away. But I will make Judah and Ephraim mighty through the Lord, And they shall march proudly in His name. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/74f4d93a/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Feb 17 20:43:31 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:43:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] WAY TO GO, ROSS!!!!!! Message-ID: I loved SUNDAY SHUL!!! Thank you so much for the cleansing water of the Word poured out on all of us who listened in tonight. By such teaching will the Whole House of Israel be restored! Keep it coming ~ Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/b08a7003/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sun Feb 17 23:16:58 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:16:58 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, but whose country is it?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802172116lbbb504bta9cb6334ab6a4623@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch, This just seems so overwhelming. Any suggestions? What can we do here? We pray, we write letters, we send emails. What else should we be doing? Kim On Feb 17, 2008 6:41 AM, wrote: > Boker tov L'Kulchem, > > Please read this article carefully and pass it along...we have already > waited too long... > * Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah* > > *What if an Arab was elected Prime Minister of Israel? > **by Nadia Matar > > * > *Denial is a well-known psychological mechanism. A threatening problem is > created. The individual denies the problem for a certain amount of time, but > it eventually explodes in his face. > > The people of Israel are in total denial regarding the problem of Israeli > Arabs. After watching a video recording of a demonstration by Israeli Arabs > in Haifa, I decided that the time has come to raise this issue, knowing full > well that this is a subject that many people are afraid to touch. > > The video recording that appears on the "Netnet" web site shows a recent > demonstration in Haifa.(See link to the video at the end of the article). We > see in the video scores of Arabs waving flags of Palestine and chanting > anti-Israel slogans. Here are a few quotes from the report by Boaz Golan > that accompanies the recording: > > "The Jews who live in the German Colony in Haifa are in shock. Their ears > do not want to hear, and woe to the eyes that see ... Here in Haifa, under > the Bahai gardens, right next to the Haifa Municipality's Tourist > Association - here, in our home, in a state that is talking about its 60th > [anniversary] celebrations, right here, we live as if in a prison. Here, in > our home, the Arabs are raising their heads ... This infuriating > demonstration lasted for days. A Palestinian demonstration against the > state, against the public at large, against the Jewish people. Against me > and against you. Flags of Palestine fly in the face of passersby. Gaza is > here in Haifa, in our very home! Jewish drivers pass by, honk their horns, > and call out to them: "Go to Gaza," but scores of Arabs continue to chant > their slogans against the state, and are not afraid to shout out loud: > "Beirut," "Damascus," "Palestine"! ... This is how the State of Israel is > ... in a country in which corruption runs wild and Arabism flourishes." > > The demonstration in Haifa is, of course, only one of the many examples of > the dramatic rise in the nationalistic extremism of Israeli Arabs, that is > expressed not only in chanting anti-Israel slogans, but also in acts and in > violence against Jews. Naturally, in all these instances, the "Israeli law > enforcement" system, does not lift a finger. > > In Akko and in Jaffa Israeli Arabs attack Jews. No one says anything, > True, a few Members of Knesset came to show their shock before the cameras. > Dozens of young couples have moved to these cities, in order to strengthen > the Jewish residents. This positive initiative is to be applauded, but, at > the present time, there can be no doubt that this act is like giving aspirin > to a cancer patient. > > Recently we hear of stone throwing at Jewish vehicles by Israeli Arabs in > Galilee. This hardly makes the headlines. Just imagine what the media would > have done if Jews had thrown stones at Arabs! Jewish girls walking about in > malls in the north where there is an Arab majority suffer sexual harassment, > and take their lives in their hands if they just go shopping. Does this > bother anyone? Is anyone willing to say, right out loud: "In Israel in 2008, > Israeli Arabs are attacking Jews"? No, everyone remains silent and denies > the problem. > > Last year, dozens of Jews celebrated Yom ha-Atzmaut (Israel Independence > Day) in the forest of Megiddo. A group of Israeli Arabs arrived, with flags > of Palestine, riding on horses, and forced the Jews to flee from the city. > Except for the Arutz 7 web site, did anyone cover this subject? Not to > mention that the police did not arrest even a single Arab rioter. > > And what about the quiet and nonviolent Arab conquest that is being > conducted in many places in Israel? Anyone who visits the Hadassah-Mount > Scopus and Hadassah-Ein Karem hospitals could mistakenly think that he was > in Ramallah. There are countless Arab doctors, and hundreds of Arab patients > and Arab clans in the corridors. The situation is the same in the > universities, the courts, and so on... > > Jewish children no longer play in the Liberty Bell Garden, between the > Inbal Hotel and the King David Hotel. It has been "conquered" by hundreds of > Arab families, and Jewish mothers fear to bring their children there. Make > no mistake. Unlike other countries, in which minorities act with respect and > submission to the host country, a considerable portion of the Israeli Arabs > act as if they were the lords of the land, while we Jews seem to them as > causal visitors who bother them! > > I ask: is this the "Jewish State" of which its founders dreamed? > > The government of Israel relates to this issue from a quite interesting > direction. A few days age we were informed that Interior Minister Meir > Sheetrit is acting to establish a new Arab city, apparently in the Galilee. > "No New Arab City Has Been Established Since the Establishment of the > State," cry out the newspaper headlines in favor of a new Arab city. Truly, > there is no better way to portray the Israeli government that is celebrating > 60 years since the establishment of the Jewish state: a government that > freezes all Jewish construction in Judea, Samaria, and even in the capital > Jerusalem, and instead of this channels its resources and money into the > establishment of an Arab city. I don't know whether to cry or laugh > bitterly. > > The left and the Arab street, of course, are full of joy and elation. But > why does the national camp remain silent? Where is the outcry? Where are the > rabbis who are supposed to remind us that, on account of "show them no > quarter" (Deuteronomy 7:2), we must not allow non-Jews to encamp in Israel? > This means: it is forbidden to sell them a house, it is forbidden to rent > them a house. And it certainly is forbidden to build them a city. > > And just what is the meaning of an "Arab city"? Will they put a sign at > the entrance to the city: "No Entry for Jews"? Is there actually any "Jewish > city" in the State of Israel? Israeli Arabs can live in any city in Israel. > Arabs live in Haifa, Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan, Jerusalem, and after the > anti-Zionist ruling by Aharon Barak, Arabs also moved to Katzir and Harish. > > If Jews, in contrast, would dare to buy in Umm el-Fahm, Daliyat al-Karmil, > Baka el-Garbiye, or any other Arab village in Galilee or the Negev, it is > clear to all that they would be subject to a pogrom, just as the Druze did > to make the city of Peki'in free of Jews a few months ago. > > As you remember, in late October 2007, Druze used the pretext of a new > cellular antenna to riot against the Jewish families in the town. Jewish > houses and cars were torched; tens of Israeli policemen were wounded; one > policewoman was held hostage. The end result: all Jewish families left > Pekiin and have not returned yet. (see links to articles about Pekiin riots > at the end of the article). > > And if we continue to be silent about this topic, what will happen in > another twenty years? Will anyone relate to these questions? The left tells > us that we must "separate ourselves" from Judea and Samaria in order to > preserve Israel as a Jewish state. This, however, is the false propaganda of > the anti-Jewish left, that dreams of the destruction of the Jewish > settlement in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, for no reason other than hatred for > the settlers, and that attempts to advance its dream by spreading empty > slogans. The Arabs of Judea and Samaria do not constitute a threat to the > State of Israel. They are not citizens. It is specifically Israeli Arabs who > threaten Israel as a Jewish state. Why is no one in our camp willing to > propose a solution to the issue of Israeli Arabs in a country that wants to > be a Jewish state? Rabbi Benny Elon's Israel Initiative relates to the Arabs > of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, while Avigdor Leiberman's "exchange of > territories" idea should be categorically rejected, since it speaks of > handing over parts of the land of Israel to Arabs. > > **The only one who dared to broach this subject was Rabbi Meir Kahane, of > blessed memory, may G-d avenge his blood. In 1980, when he was in the Ramle > prison, he wrote a book entitled They Must Go (the Hebrew title means > "Stings in Your Eyes," from the verse in the book of Numbers [33:55]: "But > if you do not dispossess the inhabitants of the land, those whom you allow > to remain shall be stings in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they > shall harass you in the land in which you live"). > > Based on the Jewish halakhah, and supported by dozens of historical > examples of other peoples who struggled with hostile minorities that lived > in their midst, Rabbi Kahane proposed that we separate ourselves from the > Arabs. Only in this way will Israel be able to survive as a Jewish state. > The details of the plan and the ways to implement them are set forth in his > book. Despite its having been written in 1980, it is still extremely > relevant. > > We can either accept or reject what Rabbi Kahane wrote, but one thing is > clear: we cannot continue to ignore this question. If we continue to bury > our heads in the sand, one day we will wake up after elections and hear the > broadcaster announce in the news: It's an upheaval! After Arab mayors were > elected in Haifa, Beersheva, and Jerusalem a few years ago, today an Arab > Prime Minister has been elected in Israel! > > Mabruk and Salaam Aleikum!" And what will we do then? > > True, many people are afraid to touch the issue, for fear of being accused > of "racism." But we cannot lose the Jewish state out of "fear of racism." If > an Israeli government minister is not accused of racism for establishing an > Arab city free of Jews, and if all the members of the Sharon government, who > expelled our brethren from Gush Katif and northern Samaria just because they > were Jews, were not accused of racism, then I an certain that the charge of > racism will not be raised against those who propose deposing the present > government and replacing it with a government that will advance the idea of > a truly Jewish state - which means: Jewish sovereignty over all of Eretz > Yisrael and Jewish control of its future. Since the hostile Arab minority > will not be pleased by this,everyone will eventually understand that > separation is the only solution: > > The Jews in Eretz Yisrael, and the Arabs in the Arab countries. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Link to the video about the Arab demonstration in Haifa: > (the text is in Hebrew but one does need to speak Hebrew to understand > what is going on on the video) > **http://www.netnet.co.il/showart.php?art_id=853 > > * *Ynet article: Last > Jewish family leaves Pekiin after riots: > **http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3478336,00.html > > * *Ynet > article: Druze vandalize Jewish property: > **http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466794,00.html > > * *Ynet > article: Policewoman recounts "hell" in Pekiin: > **http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466059,00.html > * > > *============================================= > Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) > POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel > Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 > **mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org > * *http://www.womeningreen.org > > * > > > > ------------------------------ > Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL > Living. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/a8a80e4f/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sun Feb 17 23:23:28 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:23:28 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] hadassah Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802172123q33ce1045w8b76b925daae4e12@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch or anyone else who has information, I was invited to join Hadassah yesterday at shul by the president of the Southern Charter. I looked at their website. What do you know about them? Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080217/32fa70d6/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Mon Feb 18 00:11:30 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 00:11:30 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] hadassah References: <1c8dbb6e0802172123q33ce1045w8b76b925daae4e12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <015901c871f5$1af725b0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Kim, I have been a member of Hadassah....for several years. They are a group who support Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem where much cutting-edge research is in progress. It is a huge hospital and rated on of the very best world-wide. We have had several speakers from this hospital speak to our little group in Waco, TX. I have found it to be a very interesting and uplifting group. for what that is worth.....Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: kim alvarado To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 11:23 PM Subject: [Dialogue] hadassah Hanoch or anyone else who has information, I was invited to join Hadassah yesterday at shul by the president of the Southern Charter. I looked at their website. What do you know about them? Kim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080218/08c79eb8/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Mon Feb 18 05:38:07 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:38:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Good Morning Message-ID: <220112.38296.qm@web37502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good Morning all, I've been away for several weeks, and it looks like there was a lot of good discussions...didn't have time to read all 250 of them!! Felt impressed by the Spirit of our Father to share a few passages from my reading this morning. "But I will sing of Your mighty strength [and] power, yes, I will sing aloud of Your mercy [and] loving-kindness in the morning; for You have been to me a defense and a refuge in the day of my distress. Unto You, O my Strength, I will sing praises; for Elohim is my Defense, my Fortress, [and] High Tower, the Elohim Who shows me mercy [and] steadfast love." Psalm 59:16-17 Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080218/859234a1/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 18 05:47:14 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:47:14 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Morning of 12 Adar 'I' 5768 Message-ID: Shalom V'Boker Tov, (from the Lekarev Report) Be not afraid of them; for I am with you to deliver you, says Hashem. Jeremiah 1:8 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080218/f71cacbc/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 18 05:47:56 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:47:56 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Good Morning Message-ID: Thanks Paul - and welcome back! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080218/486d9551/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Mon Feb 18 07:25:54 2008 From: rndavar at aol.com (=?utf-8?B?Um9zcyBOaWNob2xz?=) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:25:54 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] WAY TO GO, ROSS!!!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <333199378-1203341118-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1395778873-@bxe035.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Thanks for the encouraging words. I used last night's class to lay again a foundation. I hope to reach many who are searching for truth through this Sunday Shul! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: patricia robbins Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:43:31 To: Subject: [Dialogue] WAY TO GO, ROSS!!!!!! I?loved SUNDAY SHUL!!!? Thank you so much for the cleansing water of the Word poured out on all of us who listened in tonight.? By such teaching will the Whole House of Israel be restored!? ? Keep it coming ~ ? Pat ? ? _______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 18 09:33:21 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:33:21 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, but whose country is it?? In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0802172116lbbb504bta9cb6334ab6a4623@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0802172116lbbb504bta9cb6334ab6a4623@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CA405ABA5F2280-12D4-1D5F@mblk-d31.sysops.aol.com> Hey Kim, ?? If you view the ENTIRE situation, as one whole entity....then it can easily become overwhelming.? That's why I suggest that we break it into small parts that each of us can have an impact upon.? I have to prepare NEXT year's budgets before I leave for Israel (we just completed THIS year's mid-year revisions!! Grrrr...I hate this about not-for-profits!), so I am a bit pressed for time (LOL...yeah, just a bit..).? So, with your permission, I would like to share some suggestions over the course of several emails over the next few days, okay? ?? But don't forget - prayer IS the most important, but still - keep those emails and calls going!! ?? First suggestion:? 'Spread the TRUTH!'? Each of us has our 'personal' email lists of friends and relatives.? When you see, or receive something that you think is informative or helpful - SPREAD IT AROUND!!!? :-) ???More to follow shortly Kim, but if possible - I would also get as involved with Rav Uri's shul that you possibly can.? Not only does he have good ideas himself, but there ARE strength in numbers.... ?? Gotta run for now - but more as I can - and Kim, thanks for caring so much; you are truly one of HaShem's special daughters, no doubt about it...... ??? Best regards, ???????Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah Now we ALL?know that Rav Kahane was right....? -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:16 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Yes, but whose country is it?? Hanoch, This just seems so overwhelming.? Any suggestions?? What can we do here?? We pray, we write letters, we send emails.? What else should we be doing? Kim On Feb 17, 2008 6:41 AM, wrote: Boker tov L'Kulchem, ? ??? Please read this article carefully and pass it along...we have already waited too long... ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah What if an Arab was elected Prime Minister of Israel? by Nadia Matar Denial is a well-known psychological mechanism. A threatening problem is created. The individual denies the problem for a certain amount of time, but it eventually explodes in his face. The people of Israel are in total denial regarding the problem of Israeli Arabs. After watching a video recording of a demonstration by Israeli Arabs in Haifa, I decided that the time has come to raise this issue, knowing full well that this is a subject that many people are afraid to touch. The video recording that appears on the "Netnet" web site shows a recent demonstration in Haifa.(See link to the video at the end of the article). We see in the video scores of Arabs waving flags of Palestine and chanting anti-Israel slogans. Here are a few quotes from the report by Boaz Golan that accompanies the recording: "The Jews who live in the German Colony in Haifa are in shock. Their ears do not want to hear, and woe to the eyes that see ... Here in Haifa, under the Bahai gardens, right next to the Haifa Municipality's Tourist Association - here, in our home, in a state that is talking about its 60th [anniversary] celebrations, right here, we live as if in a prison. Here, in our home, the Arabs are raising their heads ... This infuriating demonstration lasted for days. A Palestinian demonstration against the state, against the public at large, against the Jewish people. Against me and against you. Flags of Palestine fly in the face of passersby. Gaza is here in Haifa, in our very home! Jewish drivers pass by, honk their horns, and call out to them: "Go to Gaza," but scores of Arabs continue to chant their slogans against the state, and are not afraid to shout out loud: "Beirut," "Damascus," "Palestine"! ... This is how the State of Israel is ... in a country in which corruption runs wild and Arabism flourishes." The demonstration in Haifa is, of course, only one of the many examples of the dramatic rise in the nationalistic extremism of Israeli Arabs, that is expressed not only in chanting anti-Israel slogans, but also in acts and in violence against Jews. Naturally, in all these instances, the "Israeli law enforcement" system, does not lift a finger. In Akko and in Jaffa Israeli Arabs attack Jews. No one says anything, True, a few Members of Knesset came to show their shock before the cameras. Dozens of young couples have moved to these cities, in order to strengthen the Jewish residents. This positive initiative is to be applauded, but, at the present time, there can be no doubt that this act is like giving aspirin to a cancer patient. Recently we hear of stone throwing at Jewish vehicles by Israeli Arabs in Galilee. This hardly makes the headlines. Just imagine what the media would have done if Jews had thrown stones at Arabs! Jewish girls walking about in malls in the north where there is an Arab majority suffer sexual harassment, and take their lives in their hands if they just go shopping. Does this bother anyone? Is anyone willing to say, right out loud: "In Israel in 2008, Israeli Arabs are attacking Jews"? No, everyone remains silent and denies the problem. Last year, dozens of Jews celebrated Yom ha-Atzmaut (Israel Independence Day) in the forest of Megiddo. A group of Israeli Arabs arrived, with flags of Palestine, riding on horses, and forced the Jews to flee from the city. Except for the Arutz 7 web site, did anyone cover this subject? Not to mention that the police did not arrest even a single Arab rioter. And what about the quiet and nonviolent Arab conquest that is being conducted in many places in Israel? Anyone who visits the Hadassah-Mount Scopus and Hadassah-Ein Karem hospitals could mistakenly think that he was in Ramallah. There are countless Arab doctors, and hundreds of Arab patients and Arab clans in the corridors. The situation is the same in the universities, the courts, and so on... Jewish children no longer play in the Liberty Bell Garden, between the Inbal Hotel and the King David Hotel. It has been "conquered" by hundreds of Arab families, and Jewish mothers fear to bring their children there. Make no mistake. Unlike other countries, in which minorities act with respect and submission to the host country, a considerable portion of the Israeli Arabs act as if they were the lords of the land, while we Jews seem to them as causal visitors who bother them! I ask: is this the "Jewish State" of which its founders dreamed? The government of Israel relates to this issue from a quite interesting direction. A few days age we were informed that Interior Minister Meir Sheetrit is acting to establish a new Arab city, apparently in the Galilee. "No New Arab City Has Been Established Since the Establishment of the State," cry out the newspaper headlines in favor of a new Arab city. Truly, there is no better way to portray the Israeli government that is celebrating 60 years since the establishment of the Jewish state: a government that freezes all Jewish construction in Judea, Samaria, and even in the capital Jerusalem, and instead of this channels its resources and money into the establishment of an Arab city. I don't know whether to cry or laugh bitterly. The left and the Arab street, of course, are full of joy and elation. But why does the national camp remain silent? Where is the outcry? Where are the rabbis who are supposed to remind us that, on account of "show them no quarter" (Deuteronomy 7:2), we must not allow non-Jews to encamp in Israel? This means: it is forbidden to sell them a house, it is forbidden to rent them a house. And it certainly is forbidden to build them a city. And just what is the meaning of an "Arab city"? Will they put a sign at the entrance to the city: "No Entry for Jews"? Is there actually any "Jewish city" in the State of Israel? Israeli Arabs can live in any city in Israel. Arabs live in Haifa, Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan, Jerusalem, and after the anti-Zionist ruling by Aharon Barak, Arabs also moved to Katzir and Harish. If Jews, in contrast, would dare to buy in Umm el-Fahm, Daliyat al-Karmil, Baka el-Garbiye, or any other Arab village in Galilee or the Negev, it is clear to all that they would be subject to a pogrom, just as the Druze did to make the city of Peki'in free of Jews a few months ago. As you remember, in late October 2007, Druze used the pretext of a new cellular antenna to riot against the Jewish families in the town. Jewish houses and cars were torched; tens of Israeli policemen were wounded; one policewoman was held hostage. The end result: all Jewish families left Pekiin and have not returned yet. (see links to articles about Pekiin riots at the end of the article). And if we continue to be silent about this topic, what will happen in another twenty years? Will anyone relate to these questions? The left tells us that we must "separate ourselves" from Judea and Samaria in order to preserve Israel as a Jewish state. This, however, is the false propaganda of the anti-Jewish left, that dreams of the destruction of the Jewish settlement in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, for no reason other than hatred for the settlers, and that attempts to advance its dream by spreading empty slogans. The Arabs of Judea and Samaria do not constitute a threat to the State of Israel. They are not citizens. It is specifically Israeli Arabs who threaten Israel as a Jewish state. Why is no one in our camp willing to propose a solution to the issue of Israeli Arabs in a country that wants to be a Jewish state? Rabbi Benny Elon's Israel Initiative relates to the Arabs of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, while Avigdor Leiberman's "exchange of territories" idea should be categorically rejected, since it speaks of handing over parts of the land of Israel to Arabs. The only one who dared to broach this subject was Rabbi Meir Kahane, of blessed memory, may G-d avenge his blood. In 1980, when he was in the Ramle prison, he wrote a book entitled They Must Go (the Hebrew title means "Stings in Your Eyes," from the verse in the book of Numbers [33:55]: "But if you do not dispossess the inhabitants of the land, those whom you allow to remain shall be stings in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land in which you live"). Based on the Jewish halakhah, and supported by dozens of historical examples of other peoples who struggled with hostile minorities that lived in their midst, Rabbi Kahane proposed that we separate ourselves from the Arabs. Only in this way will Israel be able to survive as a Jewish state. The details of the plan and the ways to implement them are set forth in his book. Despite its having been written in 1980, it is still extremely relevant. We can either accept or reject what Rabbi Kahane wrote, but one thing is clear: we cannot continue to ignore this question. If we continue to bury our heads in the sand, one day we will wake up after elections and hear the broadcaster announce in the news: It's an upheaval! After Arab mayors were elected in Haifa, Beersheva, and Jerusalem a few years ago, today an Arab Prime Minister has been elected in Israel! Mabruk and Salaam Aleikum!" And what will we do then? True, many people are afraid to touch the issue, for fear of being accused of "racism." But we cannot lose the Jewish state out of "fear of racism." If an Israeli government minister is not accused of racism for establishing an Arab city free of Jews, and if all the members of the Sharon government, who expelled our brethren from Gush Katif and northern Samaria just because they were Jews, were not accused of racism, then I an certain that the charge of racism will not be raised against those who propose deposing the present government and replacing it with a government that will advance the idea of a truly Jewish state - which means: Jewish sovereignty over all of Eretz Yisrael and Jewish control of its future. Since the hostile Arab minority will not be pleased by this,everyone will eventually? understand that separation is the only solution: The Jews in Eretz Yisrael, and the Arabs in the Arab countries. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to the video about the Arab demonstration in Haifa: (the text is in Hebrew but one does need to speak Hebrew to understand what is going on on the video) http://www.netnet.co.il/showart.php?art_id=853 Ynet article: Last Jewish family leaves Pekiin after riots: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3478336,00.html Ynet article: Druze vandalize Jewish property: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466794,00.html Ynet article: Policewoman recounts "hell" in Pekiin: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466059,00.html ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow? (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org http://www.womeningreen.org Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080218/2001f5dd/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 11:30:38 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:30:38 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] hadassah In-Reply-To: <015901c871f5$1af725b0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> References: <1c8dbb6e0802172123q33ce1045w8b76b925daae4e12@mail.gmail.com> <015901c871f5$1af725b0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802180930p58ddc325ub73e1f8b2763d2d1@mail.gmail.com> Loy, Thank you for your feedback. Kim On Feb 18, 2008 12:11 AM, Loy wrote: > Kim, I have been a member of Hadassah....for several years. They are > a group who support Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem where much cutting-edge > research is in progress. It is a huge hospital and rated on of the very best > world-wide. We have had several speakers from this hospital speak to our > little group in Waco, TX. I have found it to be a very interesting and > uplifting group. for what that is worth.....Leorah > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* kim alvarado > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Sunday, February 17, 2008 11:23 PM > *Subject:* [Dialogue] hadassah > > Hanoch or anyone else who has information, > > I was invited to join Hadassah yesterday at shul by the president of the > Southern Charter. I looked at their website. What do you know about them? > > Kim > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080218/8b972b43/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 11:34:02 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:34:02 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Good Morning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0802180934i49799ef3w26c937e169fc0d25@mail.gmail.com> Thank you Paul. Just the message I needed this morning :) Kim On Feb 18, 2008 5:47 AM, wrote: > Thanks Paul - and welcome back! > > *Hanoch *the Lil Lion of Judah > *Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...* > > > > ------------------------------ > Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL > Living. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080218/0993af42/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 18 16:56:39 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:56:39 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Suppose that James the Just had lived... Message-ID: <8CA4098A830C40D-7EC-1584@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com> Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, ??? I've always been interested in historical, "what if's?"?- and as I have read the New Testament, I continually am left with a major, "what if...?"? I was hoping that you folks could share your thoughts about this key question in my head: ??? What if James the Just (Yaakov) had lived, and Jerusalem (or elsewhere in the Land of Israel) had remained the head and center of the 'Community' (referred to as the 'Church' - which is a term I doubt James/Yaakov ever used...) which grew into Christianity?? In other words, I guess - where would James have led this group, that might have differed then either Peter or Paul??Or would there have been no significant?differences, whoever led the Early Christians?? ? ??? Let me be clear - I mean no disrespect to anyone, but there seems to be a different 'undercurrent' between these three key figures in Early Christianity.? Can someone tell me what might have been....or am I just imaging the differences in view and approach between them?? Please remember that this is relatively new to me, and I'm approaching it strictly from an academic and historical perspective.? And I'm especially hoping to hear from those of you who 'lurk' in cyberspace... ??? Looking forward to your enlightening responses!? :-) ??? Toda L'Kulchem (thanks to everyone), ??Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah Now, we ALL?know that Rav Kahane was right... ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080218/05582c5a/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 18 17:12:53 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:12:53 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Suppose that James the Just had lived... In-Reply-To: <8CA4098A830C40D-7EC-1584@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA4098A830C40D-7EC-1584@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <2009978237-1203376739-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-378245003-@bxe012.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I believe things would have been very different. To my knowledge it wasn't the "new testament" that chaged the course, it was the influence of the Roman Empire, the potential of religion to control the masses and man's greed/avarice. Here is a quote I collected a few years ago: RELIGIONS TO THE ROMAN PEOPLE WERE ALL TRUE, TO THE PHILOSOPHERS ALL FALSE AND TO THE POLITICIANS ALL USEFUL - NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC, 6/27/97 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: youngbarzel at aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:56:39 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Suppose that James the Just had lived... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, ??? I've always been interested in historical, "what if's?"?- and as I have read the New Testament, I continually am left with a major, "what if...?"? I was hoping that you folks could share your thoughts about this key question in my head: ??? What if James the Just (Yaakov) had lived, and Jerusalem (or elsewhere in the Land of Israel) had remained the head and center of the 'Community' (referred to as the 'Church' - which is a term I doubt James/Yaakov ever used...) which grew into Christianity?? In other words, I guess - where would James have led this group, that might have differed then either Peter or Paul??Or would there have been no significant?differences, whoever led the Early Christians?? ? ??? Let me be clear - I mean no disrespect to anyone, but there seems to be a different 'undercurrent' between these three key figures in Early Christianity.? Can someone tell me what might have been....or am I just imaging the differences in view and approach between them?? Please remember that this is relatively new to me, and I'm approaching it strictly from an academic and historical perspective.? And I'm especially hoping to hear from those of you who 'lurk' in cyberspace... ??? Looking forward to your enlightening responses!? :-) ??? Toda L'Kulchem (thanks to everyone), ??Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah Now, we ALL?know that Rav Kahane was right... ---------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 18 20:28:48 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:28:48 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Suppose that James the Just had lived... Message-ID: Hey John - Thanks for writing back so quickly! So, let me see if I understand your point fully: that it didn't matter if it were James, Peter or Paul, but the fact that the Romans dominated that area of the world?? BTW...I LOVED that quote from National Geographic!!! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080218/50eebe06/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 18 22:56:40 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:56:40 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Suppose that James the Just had lived... Message-ID: <021920080456.168.47BA6185000D667A000000A822218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Hanoch, I'm not sure I would say that the differences between James, Peter and Paul wouldn't have mattered. More like whatever would have developed out of those differences was completely overshadowed by the Roman "hijacking" of the movement. We'll probably never know for sure but I have to believe that if the movement had been allowed to continue on it's own it would have retained much more of it's Jewish identity than it does now, even with the differences (or maybe even because of them). Once it became the official religion of the Rome though, the original movement was destined to take a back seat. Of course it is entirely possible that if it had been left alone it would not be anywhere near as pervasive as it is today. Hmmm, narrow path, few will find it? But G-d will have His way in the end. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey John - Thanks for writing back so quickly! So, let me see if I understand your point fully: that it didn't matter if it were James, Peter or Paul, but the fact that the Romans dominated that area of the world?? BTW...I LOVED that quote from National Geographic!!! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080219/ea709b01/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Feb 19 00:27:04 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:27:04 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Pray for Sarkozy Message-ID: <200802190627.m1J6R4pD028536@mail2507.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080218/111ec598/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Feb 19 00:28:19 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:28:19 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Pray for Sarkozy Message-ID: <200802190628.m1J6SKEP017537@mail136c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080218/13f662ff/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Feb 19 03:41:43 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:41:43 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Suppose that James the Just had lived... Message-ID: Thanks John - Gotcha! Very interesting point...let me chew on that for a while; it will probably lead to my NEXT question! LOL Hey - hope it's warm in North Carolina in April! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080219/158a1b22/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 19 07:06:47 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:06:47 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Suppose that James the Just had lived... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1899085362-1203427066-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-341035447-@bxe012.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Should be beautiful in April. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:41:43 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Suppose that James the Just had lived... Thanks John - ? ??? Gotcha!? Very interesting point...let me chew on that for a while; it will probably lead to my NEXT question!? LOL? Hey - hope it's warm in North Carolina in April! ? ??? Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... ---------------- Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. _______________________________________________ From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Feb 19 09:27:01 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:27:01 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] David's seed In-Reply-To: <200802140127.m1E1RLM5016096@mail2535.carrierzone.com> References: <200802140127.m1E1RLM5016096@mail2535.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c8730b$e1c2be90$0200a8c0@marvin> Steve and others, You asked me a few days ago for more explanation on what I was seeing in scripture on the seed of David. I'm not sure... the more I study the more questions I have. About 6 weeks ago as I was studying and reading, certain words and text seemed to stand out.. At this point I have not come to a conclusion, still studying and thinking on these texts. I'm not meaning to take any out of context nor make more of the verse's then what they are saying. As we know scripture can be understood on several different levels. For those who are interested you might want to go back and read the previous thread on the question of "who are these" and I have only mention just a few of the verse's. As you wrote, "The usual Christian understanding of "David's seed" is that this means messiah, the one they refer to as '"Jesus of Nazareth." May I ask what other understanding you may have about David's seed? Steve, I would agree that the "seed" in particular is referring to Messiah, the anointed one. But, When we look at the verse's that say David himself will sit on the throne and rule Israel(the kingdom) I'm beginning to wonder if the "seed" as refer to by Christians is primary as they think or only secondary. The original teaching of Jesus and his followers has been misinterpreted and distorted and misunderstood for 2000 years. Jesus was a man sent by God just like others to do a job. The conclusion of that matter is still being debated and will be till it is settled in the future. From history we know that Jesus was exalted to a position that he never should have been given. Therefore, most of our understanding about him, his mission, and everything he said has also been distorted. Trying to remove the man form the myth is almost, if not impossible. My father use to say, You can separate the white of the egg from the yoke, till you scramble it. After that it is the work of the almighty. In Lev 8:12, 21:11-12 we see were the anointing of the high priest consecrated him above all his brethren, thus giving him access to God. So, the anointing of the King made him Messiah and he would then be in a special relationship to God. Did early Christians get the cart before the horse? Jesus was never anointed Messiah, so why did they speak of him as if he was? The election is not in, the official swearing in has not happened. Would we be correct in calling Hilary President, or Obama, or even Huckabee and McCain? In my thinking those guys in the NT really missed it or else the monks monkeyed around more then we first thought. At any rate, I have questions... many questions. Not many answers. But, I do enjoy the search. 2Sa 22:50 Therefore I will give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen,( goyee, nations) and I will sing praises unto thy name. 2Sa 22:51 He is the tower of salvation for his king: and showeth mercy to his anointed, unto David, and to his seed forevermore. Psa. 18:50 tells us the same thing. Was David looking into the future when he, in his children were among the heathen / nations. Christian commentators say this refers to Messiah and his spiritual seed. I would disagree, the seed first has to be a natural seed. 1Ki 2:33 Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed forever: but upon David, and upon his seed, and upon his house, and upon his throne, shall there be peace forever from the LORD. Notice here we have David's seed, his house, his throne. Most would interpret this as speaking of Messiah, but when you look at Joab the same people interpret this as to his children(seed). Therefore, should we not be consistent in our approach? 2Ki 17:18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. 2Ki 17:19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. 2Ki 17:20 And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. 2Ki 17:21 For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drove Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin. Here we have a picture of Israel being represented as a garment that is rent into 12 pieces. When the garment is whole Israel and Judah are together. Israel here represents the 10 tribes. In this passage the ten tribes are given to Jeroboam . 1Ki.11:31 deals with the ten tribes being taken from Solomon. 1Ki.12:20 relates how none followed the House of David except the tribe of Judah. There is some discussion as to who makes up the tribe of Judah. Some suggest Benjamin , Simenon and Judah along with Parts of Dan and even some families from Ephraim and Manasseh. Regardless of that discussion we noticed the seed is what is in question. The "seed of David" is somewhat different then the "house of David" in this context. In verse 20 above, most would agree this is all the seed of the 10 tribes. When the "seed" is of Israel or someone else we see "offspring", but when the seed is with Judah or David why must we always go straight to messiah as if the seed is speaking of an only son of an only son of an only son to the exclusion of the others in the tribe of Judah. "That there may be a light to my servant David always before me in Jerusalem." This phrase, which is repeated in 1Ki_15:4; 2Ki_8:19; 2Ch_21:7, is to be explained from 2Sa_21:17, where David's regal rule is called the light which God's grace had kindled for Israel, and affirms that David was never to want a successor upon the throne. Isa.49:3 refers to Israel as God's servant. Ezr 9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass. In Ezra's day when they came out of Babalyon and the seed had been mixed, mingled with the gentiles. No matter how hard they tried they could not unscramble the egg. You can separate children from parent's and husband's from wife's but you cannot changed the DNA helix. Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. I do not see just one person in this verse. Count them... if the seed out of Jacob and the seed out of Judah is One seed that inherits the mountain, you still have the elect and then the servants so there are at least 3 here if not more. Look at Isaiah 56: 1- 8. Those that attached themselves to Israel / Judah will have a place and name that is better then sons and daughters. Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. This "good thing" or "good word which I have promised," could that be the GOSPEL message. The good news of the Kingdom? The good news that the restoration of Israel is about to happen. This is not to be understood as Christians have understood it for the last 1900 years. Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Jer 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. Jer 33:19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. Why would God want to multiply the seed of David so that it was like the sand of the sea or as the stars of heaven? You don't need that many just to get the messiah, all you need is the only son of an only son, of an only son, of and only son. But notice the language in the next two passages of scripture. Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Notice the language used for David, is the same as the promise made to Abraham. The blessing that was promised to Abraham belonged to all the tribes; here it is restricted to the family of David and the tribe of Levi. Let us finish the last few verse of the 33 chapter of Jeremiah and notice the two families. Jer 33:23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, Jer 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them. The question presented above is not about a "change of the whole of Israel into the family of David and the tribe of Levi" But the question, whether this promise is to be understood literally, as in Exo_19:6, that all Israel shall be a kingdom of priests, and to the prophetic passages, Isa_66:1-23., according to which the whole people shall be priests to God, while Levites also shall be taken from among the heathen, nations. For this prophecy does not deal with the final glory of the people of God, but only of the innumerable increase of those who shall attain membership in the family of David and the Levitical priests. As the God-fearing among the heathen will be raised, to be the children of Abraham, and according to the promise, Isa_66:20., even Levitical priests taken from among them. In Acts 1:6 the disciples of Jesus asked him just after the DBR, if he would restore the kingdom at this time. His response.. It is not for you to know the times and seasons. Later on in 3:21 Peter said Jesus was received into heaven till the restitution of all things as spoken by the prophets. One of my biggest questions the last few years is the time gap between the 2nd.. Temple time period and today. If you look at the promise's made to Abraham and the similar language used referring to David you can understand that the logical place to start would be with Abraham's promise as a avenue for gentiles turning to God, and we know from the NT that those people believed the end was upon them... they believed and thought they were living in the last days. If the gospel stories / histories are true we see were large parts of Jesus private teaching were left out. The disciples had problems understanding what was happening. Now, the questions is raised, Is the seed of David his spiritual descendants through the Messiah? Or is the seed of David his natural seed line, which is what it seems the text is dealing with? There seems to be a great increase to the seed line of David, also the house of David seems to increase also and this seems to be due to others who are attaching themselves to David seed line, Judah and to the greater Israel proper. There are verse's I used before and many more I have not quoted. When studying a subject matter such as the NT., although, we want to know the answers, the hardest thing is coming to the point to ask the questions, which lead us to the answers many times. Asking the right questions lead in the right direction many times in our study. I don't have any answers just many questions. This discussion started from the question / thread of "Who are these?" in Acts 15 as quoted form Amos 9. Amos 9 is referring to the "tabernacle of David" being raised up and restored. I think that what James was saying is that we are witnessing an influx of gentiles turning to God, and not fully understanding God's working we believe this is the beginning of the restoring of the Whole house of Israel according to the prophets. Judah must come first and be restored and built up. Many lost triber's will return not knowing which tribe they will be from. Judah will be increased to greater numbers then we have ever witnessed. Along with the seed of Judah will be Gentiles who have attached themselves to Judah and will have a position "greater then son's and daughter's" Ephraim and Levi will also "increase as the sand of the sea shores" and fill the land. How will this happen? How will we know which tribe, these are from who are coming? How will those returning to the land know and receive their inheritance? This is all in the mind of God from the foundation of the world. God has spoken it and he will bring it to pass in due time. But for now .... James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Acts15:13-23. Shalom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:27 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] David's seed Marvin, At the end of your last "who are these" post, you mentioned: "I keep seeing that there is more to Davids seed then just the one we are looking for." Will you please enlighten us what you have learned about "David's seed?" The usual Christian understanding of "David's seed" is that this means messiah, the one they refer to as '"Jesus of Nazareth." May I ask what other understanding you may have about David's seed? Thanks ahead of time. Everybody else, please chime in. Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080219/f76934ec/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 16:11:36 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Suppose that James the Just had lived... In-Reply-To: <2009978237-1203376739-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-378245003-@bxe012.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <509808.24535.qm@web37510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well said.... carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: I believe things would have been very different. To my knowledge it wasn't the "new testament" that chaged the course, it was the influence of the Roman Empire, the potential of religion to control the masses and man's greed/avarice. Here is a quote I collected a few years ago: RELIGIONS TO THE ROMAN PEOPLE WERE ALL TRUE, TO THE PHILOSOPHERS ALL FALSE AND TO THE POLITICIANS ALL USEFUL - NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC, 6/27/97 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: youngbarzel at aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:56:39 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Suppose that James the Just had lived... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, I've always been interested in historical, "what if's?" - and as I have read the New Testament, I continually am left with a major, "what if...?" I was hoping that you folks could share your thoughts about this key question in my head: What if James the Just (Yaakov) had lived, and Jerusalem (or elsewhere in the Land of Israel) had remained the head and center of the 'Community' (referred to as the 'Church' - which is a term I doubt James/Yaakov ever used...) which grew into Christianity? In other words, I guess - where would James have led this group, that might have differed then either Peter or Paul? Or would there have been no significant differences, whoever led the Early Christians? Let me be clear - I mean no disrespect to anyone, but there seems to be a different 'undercurrent' between these three key figures in Early Christianity. Can someone tell me what might have been....or am I just imaging the differences in view and approach between them? Please remember that this is relatively new to me, and I'm approaching it strictly from an academic and historical perspective. And I'm especially hoping to hear from those of you who 'lurk' in cyberspace... Looking forward to your enlightening responses! :-) Toda L'Kulchem (thanks to everyone), Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now, we ALL know that Rav Kahane was right... ---------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080219/c95c408f/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 16:15:25 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:15:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Suppose that James the Just had lived... In-Reply-To: <021920080456.168.47BA6185000D667A000000A822218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <896279.25490.qm@web37510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Remember also, there was a lot of Helenistic influence during that period, both on Christians and Jews. But, if you read early "church" history, the RCC put immense pressure on the leaders of the assemblies in Asia Minor. The early leaders didn't cave, but like the boiling frog syndrom, they slowly caved until the Sabbath observance was abandoned, as well as observing Easter instead of the Pascha. Paul carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: Hey Hanoch, I'm not sure I would say that the differences between James, Peter and Paul wouldn't have mattered. More like whatever would have developed out of those differences was completely overshadowed by the Roman "hijacking" of the movement. We'll probably never know for sure but I have to believe that if the movement had been allowed to continue on it's own it would have retained much more of it's Jewish identity than it does now, even with the differences (or maybe even because of them). Once it became the official religion of the Rome though, the original movement was destined to take a back seat. Of course it is entirely possible that if it had been left alone it would not be anywhere near as pervasive as it is today. Hmmm, narrow path, few will find it? But G-d will have His way in the end. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey John - Thanks for writing back so quickly! So, let me see if I understand your point fully: that it didn't matter if it were James, Peter or Paul, but the fact that the Romans dominated that area of the world?? BTW...I LOVED that quote from National Geographic!!! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... --------------------------------- Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080219/26d88950/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Feb 19 18:07:20 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:07:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] re: Pray for Sarkozy Message-ID: <8CA416BB223B9CE-D5C-95E@mblk-d16.sysops.aol.com> Hey Steve - ?? Thanks for posting this - I think he is one of the truly righteous people in the world...I'm referring exclusively to his positions vis a vis Israel and Jews, of course (I don't have a clue about France's domestic politics!).? Now, if we could only find a way to get Nicholas Sarkozy and Rudy Gulliani into the Keneset, then we'd have some really PRO-Israel policies, IN Israel!? He's got my prayers... ??? Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080219/5b7feae7/attachment.html From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 18:32:05 2008 From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:32:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] More about Paul Message-ID: <142389.52702.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I had followed the information about Paul (Saul) and thought you might be interested in what James Tabor said about the subject. Go to the address below. http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/paul.html My own personal opinion of Paul has long been that he was a highly egotistical, arrogant goal oriented man who believed that he was better than anyone else because he had "seen" the risen Jesus. I also have a problem with anyone who would say he would be all things to all people. (translation, he would lie to anyone to get what he wanted.) That type of person would not be welcome in my life, but that's just my opinion. Betty, not Elishiva, Eddy Betty Eddy --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080219/055ed552/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Feb 19 18:41:32 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:41:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] More about Paul In-Reply-To: <142389.52702.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <142389.52702.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA417079518A01-D5C-AE1@mblk-d16.sysops.aol.com> Hi Betty, ??? Thanks for passing this on, I'm still trying to sort out the different 'approaches' of Peter, James and Paul, so this is very helpful (and it reminded me to check James Tabor's site!).? No one has spoken to that part of MY question, but maybe someone will weigh in on that. ??? Good hearing from you! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... -----Original Message----- From: Betty Eddy To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 7:32 pm Subject: [Dialogue] More about Paul I had followed the information about Paul (Saul) and thought you might be interested in what James Tabor said about the subject. Go to the address below. http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/paul.html My own personal opinion of Paul has long been that he was a highly egotistical, arrogant goal oriented man who believed that he was better than anyone else because he had "seen" the risen Jesus. I also have a problem with anyone who would say he would be all things to all people. (translation, he would lie to anyone to get what he wanted.) That type of person would not be welcome in my life, but that's just my opinion. Betty, not Elishiva, Eddy Betty Eddy Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080219/b8c5991b/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 19 21:46:54 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 03:46:54 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Talmud Message-ID: <022020080346.23260.47BBA2AE0002177600005ADC22218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> I was wondering why the penalty of death was suspended 40 years before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.? Thanks in advance Tammy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/2394e345/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Feb 19 23:12:57 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:12:57 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] David's seed In-Reply-To: <00ac01c8730b$e1c2be90$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <200802140127.m1E1RLM5016096@mail2535.carrierzone.com> <00ac01c8730b$e1c2be90$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <200802200512.m1K5CsBJ015569@mail2534.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080219/6b90dda5/attachment.html From house_of_danner at yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 04:18:57 2008 From: house_of_danner at yahoo.com (Pamela JD Rogers) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 02:18:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul Message-ID: <224566.96715.qm@web33613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That's good news Ross :) Pamela ----- Original Message ---- From: "Nichols, Ross K." To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; uilist at unitedisrael.org Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:27:50 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul Shalom! Some of you may receive this note more than once. I apologize for that. I wanted to send out a quick note to let you all know that I have come up with an acceptable plan that allows me to restore and maintain balance in my life and teach again. I feel that God has given me a new sense of direction. I will be starting a Sunday Night class at the synagogue at 7 PM Central time. This will be called Sunday Shul and will last about an hour to an hour and a half. It begins this Sunday night. I will send out a more formal note of explanation to my general email list. I wanted all of you to get the news first. The class will be webcast live. Get ready! I?m coming back with new direction, a new zeal, and am excited about what is ahead of us at Roots of Faith. More to follow. Stay tuned! Thanks for your patience, prayers and many letters of encouragement. Please feel free to forward this note to any that you feel might be interested. In my newsletter I will tell more about this new class. His word is to me like a fire shut up in my bones ? Jeremiah Check the web site for the links to listen in. I will include them in my newsletter as well. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols Cellular - 225.588.1575 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/e4a058aa/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 20 05:31:33 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:31:33 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Today, 14 Adar 'I' 5768 Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 14 Adar I 5768 February 20, 2008 Shalom Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, instead of that which was said to them: 'You are not My people', it shall be said to them: 'You are the children of the living G-d.' Hosea 1:10 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/6dfa9217/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 20 05:37:31 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:37:31 EST Subject: [Dialogue] This quote applies to all of us... Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim - An important quote from Rebbe Yoda that I think really applies.... "You must unlearn what you have learned." Yoda Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/81afb448/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Feb 20 06:13:30 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 07:13:30 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] More about Paul Message-ID: Thanks Betty for your post, I think it is wonderful that the dialogue an extension of the synagogue without walls is open to all to express their opinions. Yes, James has some excellent posts on his academic web site. Take care Clyde **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/a7b1c440/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Betty Eddy Subject: [Dialogue] More about Paul Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:32:05 -0800 (PST) Size: 5956 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/a7b1c440/attachment.mht From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Feb 20 08:26:51 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:26:51 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] David's seed Message-ID: Hi Steve: Thanks to both you and Marvin for you posts. I enjoyed your article - Turn Us Again O G-D. You have an interesting web-site. I think one of the problems in terms of Yeshua being the messiah son of David is - he failed to fulfill what the prophets recorded regarding the MBD. The question becomes then what role or roles did Yeshua fulfill? A member of our study group suggests Yeshua then and now is fulfilling the role of the messiah son of Joseph/Ephraim the son of Jacob. The article is 38 pages and counting - far to large for the dialogue. For those interested - can email me personaly and I will be happy to forward the reasoned biblical evidence the author presents. I have pasted in a short introduction that suggests what is to follow.. Take care Clyde WAS JESUS ?MESSIAH SON OF JOSEPH?? Noel Rude www.hebdomad.com There is a well developed teaching that there will be two messiahs?a messiah son of David (???????? ???? ??????) who is preceded by a messiah son of Joseph (???????? ???? ??????)?also called messiah son of Ephraim (???????? ???? ?????????). It?s in the Targum, the Midrash, the Talmud and subsequent rabbinical literature._[1]_ (aoldb://mail/write/template.htm#_ftn1) The New Testament is clear that Jesus was the promised messiah. He was the prophet prophesied by Moses (Deut 18:15)?this according to Peter (Acts 3:22) as also Stephen (Acts 7:37). And he was the son of David?as in the opening words of the New Testament (Mat 1:1): ?The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David ?.? In the following pages I will suggest that the New Testament Messiah embodies both types: his role as suffering servant, his resurrection and subsequent two millennia at the right hand of the Father in heaven fulfill the Joseph type, and his yet to be inauguration and installation on the throne in Jerusalem just before the millennial Sabbath fulfills the David type. ____________________________________ _[1]_ (aoldb://mail/write/template.htm#_ftnref1) Patai (1979) provides a large selection of relevant texts translated into English. According to Edersheim (1993:11), ?Later Jewish notices connect the final discovery and the return of the ?lost tribes? with their conversion under that second Messiah who, in contradistinction to ?the Son of David? is styled ?the Son of Joseph,? to whom Jewish tradition ascribes what it cannot reconcile with the royal dignity of ?the Son of David,? and which, if applied to Him, would almost inevitably lead up to the most wide concessions in the Christian argument.? And then in a footnote he continues: ?This is not the place to discuss the later Jewish fiction of a second or ?suffering? Messiah, ?the son of Joseph,? whose special mission it would be to bring back the ten tribes, and to subject them to Messiah, ?the son of David,? but who would perish in the war against Gog and Magog.? Whether or not the concept of a ?messiah son of Joseph? was developed as yet in New Testament times is irrelevant to its validity. Nevertheless for an argument that the concept traces at least to the mid 2nd century BCE, see Mitchell (2005). **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/5db6b26d/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Mathe Subject: RE: [Dialogue] David's seed Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:12:57 -0800 Size: 38062 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/5db6b26d/attachment.mht From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Feb 20 08:56:16 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:56:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] David's seed Message-ID: Steve, This speaks to my heart as your writing always does. The PR you had in 1993 (II Sam. 5:16), concerning the names of David's "last" three sons is so reassuring. Their names really do appear to describe our walk in these "last" days. I believe that since He did cause us to "Elishama," listen to Him, then "Eliyada," gain knowledge of Him, that He will surely also "Eliphalet," cause us to be regathered in order to escape. I thank you most sincerely for sharing this PR as it confers both hope to us and strength upon us to continue pushing forward. When you spoke of the Scriptures describing our having been hidden by HaShem until these last days, another one, Isaiah 49:1-3, immediately popped into my mind: "Listen O isles to me; and hearken, O people, from far; The L-RD has called me from birth; from the bowels of my mother has He made mention of my name. And He has made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of His hand has He hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in His quiver has He hid me; and said to me , Thou art My servant, Yisrael, in whom I will be glorified." Pat Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:12:57 -0800To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgFrom: eliasaph at uniteourheart.comSubject: RE: [Dialogue] David's seed Marvin, Thank you again for a major study you shared with us all. You covered a lot of the instances of the word "seed" that gives all a good coverage of the field of relevant usage of the word. I knew the question I raised would require some serious contemplation, for the term, "seed" can be used as a for "all descendants," as with Abraham, and as such it is sort of a generic term that refers to great numbers. Then there is the usual "one seed" the Christians understand as their Messiah. Am not intending to dispute either one of these usages, though has some serious problems that need to be studied in their own right. Of course, the house of David, the royalty that was to descend from him is important, for it looks like that the British as well as other royal houses claim descent form David. I personally think that there is a lot of truth to that assertion and that is how I understand Jer 33:17 "For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel." To me this means that there always would be some descendant of David who would be ruling through all generations as king over some part of Israel, (NOT that some descendant of his would always be around and be eligible to be drafted to be anointed as Messiah). Otherwise to me it seems that this "seed of David" is a Hebraism, that implies "the faithful of Israel in the latter days." These "returnees to the kingdom of David," would "seek him" as prophesied: " Afterward shall the children of Israel return and seek the LORD their God, and David their king, and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days." ( Hos. 3:5)These returnees would be heeding his call to repentance (in the Psalms) and seeking God, and would follow in his steps as repentant sons and daughters, being repentant just as he was repentant of grievous sins. It could imply that they would repent of and seceding from the kingdom seek reunification, i.e. the united monarchy, since they sought to be separate from the rule of David in ancient times. This could give a whole new dimension to "confessing the sins of their fathers." You quote: 2Sa 22:50 Therefore I will give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, (goyeem, nations) and I will sing praises unto thy name. 2Sa 22:51 He is the tower of salvation for his king: and showeth mercy to his anointed, unto David, and to his seed forevermore. Psalm 18:50 tells us the same thing. Was David looking into the future when he, in his children were among the heathen / nations.These references of yours can back the possibility that since Israel will be regathered in the latter days, and gentiles will join them, perhaps they are "metaphorically" referred to as "David's seed." This lot of repentant followers of David's call would not be physical descendants but as "spiritual ones, for they would follow David, [and his heart] as commander in chief, back to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the heart of the fathers, (Mal. 3:26). It is a fanciful metaphorical chain of thought, but I hope you get the idea that these returnees would be taking cues from David's heart, as expressed in the Psalms. In a way, this mixed multitude, could be called "the Israel of God," who in time would be inducted into the tribes of Israel they dwell in, and they in that sense would be called the "priests of God," for they would have joined the "nation of Priests," teachers of mankind, and would function in that capacity. (Isa. 66:21). It could be that the NT has some allusions to this eventuality, when it talks about the "Israel of God," and this "grafting in" business, which and somehow, and for various reasons we have misunderstood for 2000 years. Some time ago I wrote an article that had to do in a mystical way with "the seed of David," specifically, the last three of the 13 sons born to him in Jerusalem:http://www.uniteourheart.com/repentance/Turn-Us-Again.html It is entirely based on II Sam. 5:16, a PR I received in the middle of prayer, on Jan 6th, 1993. At the time I did not know what it could have referred to, till I studied the meaning of the names. See also, (I Chron 3:8). These names signified to me that the first ones to arise from the Valley of Dry Bones, are to do three things:First, to "hear God," i.e. Elishama; second, they they are to "gain knowledge of God," i.e. Eliyada; and third, they would be "regathered in order to escape" [their prisons, and perhaps the harsh wake-up calls to come upon the world], i.e. Eliphalet. (No, I do not believe in the "rapture"). Of course they could be instrumental in the greater "regathering" of the rest of Israel. My guess is that, since this was a compact message within the names of these last three sons. Perhaps, there are more mystical meanings in the names of these sons, since only these last three have "Eli" / My God in their names. The fact that these were born in Jerusalem, could also be significant. Perhaps, they have some implication about these sons of faith, whose allegiance to Jerusalem and Israel is a main trait. Also, since they are "the last three" perhaps they have an allusion to "the first shall be last, and the last shall be first." Are these three sons' names signifying the faithful of Israel, who will be make up "the seed of David" in the latter days?While study is important, there is no substitute for Guidance in that study, i..e. "revelation." It seems that we might be in some ways the manifestation of the "revelation of the sons of God," (Hos. 1:10, Isa. 51:2), whom God has hidden for centuries in the graves of Ezekiel 37 and the islands and corners of the world, (Deut. 32: 26). Perhaps this is one of the "secret things that belong to God,' in Deut. 29;29, that He has hidden us in "a land to be found later" {an alternate translation of "another land," (Deut. 29:28).I invite discussion on Clyde Brown's, Marvin's and my posts, (and everybody else's). More importantly, also invite all on the list to ask HaShem for more revelations He may want to add to this that we need to know at this time. The collective prayer of all if us might be effective in gaining instructions we need to have. We need to "listen,' / Elishama, to gain more knowledge, that we may be released form our dark prison houses. Above all, God desires that we "gain knowledge of God, (Hos 4:6, 6:6). that is a whole new study and discussion for the next subject on this list. Steve"Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the tribes of Israel. Ps. Please remember, I am collecting data on "answers to prayer,", i.e. PRs, SEs, dreams. See the forms to fill out at: http://www.uniteourheart.com . At 07:27 AM 2/19/2008, you wrote: Steve and others, You asked me a few days ago for more explanation on what I was seeing in scripture on the seed of David. I?m not sure?.. the more I study the more questions I have. About 6 weeks ago as I was studying and reading, certain words and text seemed to stand out?. At this point I have not come to a conclusion, still studying and thinking on these texts. I?m not meaning to take any out of context nor make more of the verse?s then what they are saying. As we know scripture can be understood on several different levels. For those who are interested you might want to go back and read the previous thread on the question of ?who are these? and I have only mention just a few of the verse?s. As you wrote, ?The usual Christian understanding of "David's seed" is that this means messiah, the one they refer to as '"Jesus of Nazareth." May I ask what other understanding you may have about David's seed? Steve, I would agree that the ?seed? in particular is referring to Messiah, the anointed one. But, When we look at the verse?s that say David himself will sit on the throne and rule Israel(the kingdom) I?m beginning to wonder if the ?seed? as refer to by Christians is primary as they think or only secondary. The original teaching of Jesus and his followers has been misinterpreted and distorted and misunderstood for 2000 years. Jesus was a man sent by God just like others to do a job. The conclusion of that matter is still being debated and will be till it is settled in the future. From history we know that Jesus was exalted to a position that he never should have been given. Therefore, most of our understanding about him, his mission, and everything he said has also been distorted. Trying to remove the man form the myth is almost, if not impossible. My father use to say, You can separate the white of the egg from the yoke, till you scramble it. After that it is the work of the almighty. In Lev 8:12, 21:11-12 we see were the anointing of the high priest consecrated him above all his brethren, thus giving him access to God. So, the anointing of the King made him Messiah and he would then be in a special relationship to God. Did early Christians get the cart before the horse? Jesus was never anointed Messiah, so why did they speak of him as if he was? The election is not in, the official swearing in has not happened. Would we be correct in calling Hilary President, or Obama, or even Huckabee and McCain? In my thinking those guys in the NT really missed it or else the monks monkeyed around more then we first thought. At any rate, I have questions?.. many questions. Not many answers. But, I do enjoy the search. 2Sa 22:50 Therefore I will give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen,( goyee, nations) and I will sing praises unto thy name. 2Sa 22:51 He is the tower of salvation for his king: and showeth mercy to his anointed, unto David, and to his seed forevermore. Psa. 18:50 tells us the same thing. Was David looking into the future when he, in his children were among the heathen / nations. Christian commentators say this refers to Messiah and his spiritual seed. I would disagree, the seed first has to be a natural seed. 1Ki 2:33 Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed forever: but upon David, and upon his seed, and upon his house, and upon his throne, shall there be peace forever from the LORD. Notice here we have David?s seed, his house, his throne. Most would interpret this as speaking of Messiah, but when you look at Joab the same people interpret this as to his children(seed). Therefore, should we not be consistent in our approach? 2Ki 17:18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. 2Ki 17:19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. 2Ki 17:20 And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. 2Ki 17:21 For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drove Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin. Here we have a picture of Israel being represented as a garment that is rent into 12 pieces. When the garment is whole Israel and Judah are together. Israel here represents the 10 tribes. In this passage the ten tribes are given to Jeroboam . 1Ki.11:31 deals with the ten tribes being taken from Solomon. 1Ki.12:20 relates how none followed the House of David except the tribe of Judah. There is some discussion as to who makes up the tribe of Judah. Some suggest Benjamin , Simenon and Judah along with Parts of Dan and even some families from Ephraim and Manasseh. Regardless of that discussion we noticed the seed is what is in question. The ?seed of David? is somewhat different then the ?house of David? in this context. In verse 20 above, most would agree this is all the seed of the 10 tribes. When the ?seed? is of Israel or someone else we see ?offspring?, but when the seed is with Judah or David why must we always go straight to messiah as if the seed is speaking of an only son of an only son of an only son to the exclusion of the others in the tribe of Judah. ?That there may be a light to my servant David always before me in Jerusalem.? This phrase, which is repeated in 1Ki_15:4 ; 2Ki_8:19 ; 2Ch_21:7 , is to be explained from 2Sa_21:17 , where David's regal rule is called the light which God's grace had kindled for Israel, and affirms that David was never to want a successor upon the throne. Isa.49:3 refers to Israel as God?s servant. Ezr 9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass. In Ezra?s day when they came out of Babalyon and the seed had been mixed, mingled with the gentiles. No matter how hard they tried they could not unscramble the egg. You can separate children from parent?s and husband?s from wife?s but you cannot changed the DNA helix. Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. I do not see just one person in this verse. Count them?.. if the seed out of Jacob and the seed out of Judah is One seed that inherits the mountain, you still have the elect and then the servants so there are at least 3 here if not more. Look at Isaiah 56: 1- 8. Those that attached themselves to Israel / Judah will have a place and name that is better then sons and daughters. Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. This ?good thing? or ?good word which I have promised,? could that be the GOSPEL message. The good news of the Kingdom? The good news that the restoration of Israel is about to happen. This is not to be understood as Christians have understood it for the last 1900 years. Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Jer 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. Jer 33:19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. Why would God want to multiply the seed of David so that it was like the sand of the sea or as the stars of heaven? You don?t need that many just to get the messiah, all you need is the only son of an only son, of an only son, of and only son. But notice the language in the next two passages of scripture. Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son : Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Notice the language used for David, is the same as the promise made to Abraham. The blessing that was promised to Abraham belonged to all the tribes; here it is restricted to the family of David and the tribe of Levi. Let us finish the last few verse of the 33 chapter of Jeremiah and notice the two families. Jer 33:23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, Jer 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them. The question presented above is not about a "change of the whole of Israel into the family of David and the tribe of Levi" But the question, whether this promise is to be understood literally, as in Exo_19:6 , that all Israel shall be a kingdom of priests, and to the prophetic passages, Isa_66:1-23 ., according to which the whole people shall be priests to God, while Levites also shall be taken from among the heathen, nations. For this prophecy does not deal with the final glory of the people of God, but only of the innumerable increase of those who shall attain membership in the family of David and the Levitical priests. As the God-fearing among the heathen will be raised, to be the children of Abraham, and according to the promise, Isa_66:20 ., even Levitical priests taken from among them. In Acts 1:6 the disciples of Jesus asked him just after the DBR, if he would restore the kingdom at this time. His response?. It is not for you to know the times and seasons. Later on in 3:21 Peter said Jesus was received into heaven till the restitution of all things as spoken by the prophets. One of my biggest questions the last few years is the time gap between the 2nd.. Temple time period and today. If you look at the promise?s made to Abraham and the similar language used referring to David you can understand that the logical place to start would be with Abraham?s promise as a avenue for gentiles turning to God, and we know from the NT that those people believed the end was upon them?.. they believed and thought they were living in the last days. If the gospel stories / histories are true we see were large parts of Jesus private teaching were left out. The disciples had problems understanding what was happening. Now, the questions is raised, Is the seed of David his spiritual descendants through the Messiah? Or is the seed of David his natural seed line, which is what it seems the text is dealing with? There seems to be a great increase to the seed line of David, also the house of David seems to increase also and this seems to be due to others who are attaching themselves to David seed line, Judah and to the greater Israel proper. There are verse?s I used before and many more I have not quoted. When studying a subject matter such as the NT., although, we want to know the answers, the hardest thing is coming to the point to ask the questions, which lead us to the answers many times. Asking the right questions lead in the right direction many times in our study. I don?t have any answers just many questions. This discussion started from the question / thread of ?Who are these?? in Acts 15 as quoted form Amos 9. Amos 9 is referring to the ?tabernacle of David? being raised up and restored. I think that what James was saying is that we are witnessing an influx of gentiles turning to God, and not fully understanding God?s working we believe this is the beginning of the restoringof the Whole house of Israel according to the prophets. Judah must come first and be restored and built up. Many lost triber?s will return not knowing which tribe they will be from. Judah will be increased to greater numbers then we have ever witnessed. Along with the seed of Judah will be Gentiles who have attached themselves to Judah and will have a position ?greater then son?s and daughter?s? Ephraim and Levi will also ?increase as the sand of the sea shores? and fill the land. How will this happen? How will we know which tribe, these are from who are coming? How will those returning to the land know and receive their inheritance? This is all in the mind of God from the foundation of the world. God has spoken it and he will bring it to pass in due time. But for now ???. James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Acts15:13-23. Shalom From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve MatheSent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:27 PMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] David's seed Marvin,At the end of your last "who are these" post, you mentioned: "I keep seeing that there is more to Davids seed then just the one we are looking for." Will you please enlighten us what you have learned about "David's seed?" The usual Christian understanding of "David's seed" is that this means messiah, the one they refer to as '"Jesus of Nazareth." May I ask what other understanding you may have about David's seed? Thanks ahead of time. Everybody else, please chime in.Steve_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/fd5533c7/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Wed Feb 20 18:20:34 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:20:34 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Talmud In-Reply-To: <022020080346.23260.47BBA2AE0002177600005ADC22218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <022020080346.23260.47BBA2AE0002177600005ADC22218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <297EAD657D6A4AA59AD3975D07BB5627@DickLPC> I think the Romans did not want any competition. Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Talmud I was wondering why the penalty of death was suspended 40 years before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.? Thanks in advance Tammy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/13d02334/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Feb 20 19:16:06 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:16:06 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Talmud In-Reply-To: <022020080346.23260.47BBA2AE0002177600005ADC22218865869B0A0 2D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <022020080346.23260.47BBA2AE0002177600005ADC22218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <200802210116.m1L1G2v4023347@mail114c25.carrierzone.com> Tammy, I asked rabbi Avraham Greenbaum, re your question, because I do not know the answer. He says he will try to cover the question on Sunday morning, at the usual class. Those who are interested, you are invited to listen to R. Greenbaum, live from Jerusalem. Check your local time at http://www.azamra.org. See if you can hear the music now, if so, you will be able to check in, listen and communicate with him via chatroom after class. Be sure to give yourself a screen name to register with. The program will remember your name for every other time you will check in. I highly respect Rabbi Greenbaum as a very Godly man, from whom we have a lot to learn from. Steve At 07:46 PM 2/19/2008, you wrote: >I was wondering why the penalty of death was suspended 40 years >before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.? > >Thanks in advance >Tammy From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 20 19:35:11 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 01:35:11 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Talmud Message-ID: <022120080135.16728.47BCD54F0005EB690000415822218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Thank-you Steve I'll be sure to listen. I found an amazing site myself that studies the Torah lessons. I've listened to the last two lessons for most of the day today and I'm awe struck with this man's knowledge and teachings. He's been discussing the Tabernacle in the wilderness. I have to keep backing up to re-listen because of the amount of information he gives, I can't keep up in my notetaking. : ) Come see if you get the chance. http://www.lionlamb.net/v3/BnaiShalom/PreviousBroadcasts I asked rabbi Avraham Greenbaum, re your question, because I do not know the answer. He says he will try to cover the question on Sunday morning, at the usual class. Those who are interested, you are invited to listen to R. Greenbaum, live from Jerusalem. Check your local time at http://www.azamra.org. See if you can hear the music now, if so, you will be able to check in, listen and communicate with him via chatroom after class. Be sure to give yourself a screen name to register with. The program will remember your name for every other time you will check in. I highly respect Rabbi Greenbaum as a very Godly man, from whom we have a lot to learn from. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080221/12c5a7a9/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Wed Feb 20 21:16:43 2008 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:16:43 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] This quote applies to all of us... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EBC3C5620AD4C02BDED48EE090701CB@sherryPC> Hanoch you are too funny! How this applies to me. Thank you, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 5:37 AM Subject: [Dialogue] This quote applies to all of us... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim - An important quote from Rebbe Yoda that I think really applies.... "You must unlearn what you have learned." Yoda Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1288 - Release Date: 2/19/2008 8:47 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/5e5824cb/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 20 21:24:28 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:24:28 EST Subject: [Dialogue] This quote applies to all of us... Message-ID: Hey Sherry - Just remember, Rebbe Yoda knows it all.... :-) LOL It was time for a smile! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/7655fecd/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 22 06:21:22 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 07:21:22 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for 16 Adar I, 5768 Message-ID: Shabbat Shalom L'Kulchem (to everyone), (from the Lekarev Report) "And let us eagerly strive to know HaShem, His going forth is as sure as the morning; and He shall come to us as the rain, as the later rain the waters the Earth." Hosea (Hoshea) 6:3 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080222/dc40beb1/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 22 06:34:07 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 07:34:07 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Article - "Planet Sderot" Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Below is an article called, "Planet Sderot" for the Orthodox Union Website - _www.ou.org_ (http://www.ou.org/) It is well worth reading. I would really like to go to Sderot when I'm in Israel in March...not sure what I could do, other then walk around a feel guilty....Just wish I could be the Prime Minister for 2 hours.....so I could order the Islamo-nazi Cancer in Gaza cut out...once and for all! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... Planet Sderot Rabbi Avi Baumol Planet Sderot: OU Israel Visits the Embattled City Last week, after a particularly harrowing weekend in Sderot, I walked into work and immediately noticed a look on Rabbi Avi Berman, the Director of OU Israel's face. He said to me, ?that's it, enough! I know we have invested so much in Sderot, we have raised funds, sent teams, and currently work more in Sderot than any other city in Israel, but still, I can't have us sitting here in Jerusalem while they are in so much pain in Sderot. So that's it, we are all going down to Sderot, in two days?. Two days? I thought, how would we organize our entire office, and find an appropriate schedule in such a small timeframe? But in truth, when our brothers and sisters are suffering so much it is not so difficult to clear everyone's schedule and find the people to meet and the places to visit in Sderot. _Donate now!_ (http://www.ou.org/sderot/) As the day of the visit drew to a close and we heard countless stories of the 'code red' alarms and the frightening whistle of the Kassam, we ended up hearing that alarm in real time, feeling the sense of helplessness at the random raining of a murderous missile, and all ran for cover. We escaped unscathed, but one Kassam is no comparison to what these heroic people experience every single day in this forgotten city. Planet Sderot Where else in the world do people go about their business, sending their kids to school, policemen to the streets, sanitation workers to the trucks--all under constant fire of a missile which has the power to take apart an entire floor of a home? What other country would allow over 5700 missiles to be shot into their universally accepted sovereign territory without an intense and definitive response? In the words of Yael Spanglett, who together with her husband live and choose to live in Sderot despite the terror, Sderot is not simply a different city, but another planet altogether. It has different laws than anywhere else, but it has different citizens as well?bold, courageous, determined and spiritual. It is these people whom we met today, they represent our pride, our front line, and our reason that we left the day feeling that despite the terror, 'netzach yisrael lo yeshaker' (the eternity of Israel will be forever true). Morning: A Somber Welcome As you enter Sderot you are confronted by a large sign which reads "after 5700 missiles, have we not suffered enough?" Eerily, next to it is another sign pointing to the cemetery where 10 victims of the Kassam campaign who gave up their lives are resting. It is a sobering sign which conjures up feelings of incredulity, shock, frustration, and compassion for the citizens who are hurting, in pain, but not giving up. We learned that valuable lesson everywhere we went that day. Makom Balev: OU Israel?s NCSY in Sderot (and much much more!)We begin our day in a bomb shelter, and are given a debriefing from Elad Attia and Elyashiv Buchbut two remarkable and courageous young men in Sderot. Both are counselors in our youth group called Makom Balev. Both spend their time and energy creating programs, telling stories, learning with and confiding in the tens of high school boys who join together after school to find solace? Advice? Normalcy? A few minutes to not have to think about where they have to hide next? The answer is probably many of these things and much more. Elad and Elyashiv show us where the Kassam hit and how the shrapnel penetrated the steel electric pole. Elyashiv and Elad are advisors but also Yeshiva students as well as members of Magen David Edom, medical volunteers acting as a Rapid Response Team. They spoke about the most recent catastrophe; it started when 8 year old Tuito ventured out of his house to buy a birthday present for his father. When he heard the siren he knew he had twenty seconds to run to the concrete fortified shelter, but this time there were only ten seconds. On the way, he was struck by shrapnel of the Kassam and it severed major arteries in his leg. Ultimately, this soccer playing boy lost most of his right leg. But each story of tragedy and despair on this day is lined with a spiritual feeling of hope as a testament to the faith and unique responsibility each boy and girl accept upon themselves in this city. Later on that day the high school principal told us that Matan Cohen, a boy of 13 who lost part of his leg in a missile strike last year, went to visit the boy in the hospital to give him encouragement and support. Superheroes of Sderot Guy Nagar tells the OU Israel group of the magnitude of a kassam. And yet, in line with the incomprehensibility of the paralysis of the government, there is also the remarkably incomprehensible heroism of those who continue to live, teach, raise their family and succeed in Sderot. Guy Nagar (Director of Makom Balev, Sderot) and his wife choose to live in Sderot and endure the terror attempting to foster a community built on chesed (loving-kindness), emunah (faith) and belief in the mission of acting as the front lines of Israel against its enemies. Yael Spanglett in the Shul where they attempt to create a community feeling amongst the citizens of Sderot. Yael Spanglett works in hi-tech, her husband in Soroka hospital. She speaks to us in a makeshift shul taken from a cafe and tells us what its like to live in Sderot. She moved here eight years ago and understands this place to be surrealistic. She plays a recording on her phone; it is the whistle of a missile falling. Sometimes you have twenty seconds to run for cover, other times you have two seconds. she laments the absurdity of living in Israel and not being defended. She calls it planet Sderot. When asked the obvious question, What are you still doing here? Why are you not leaving this city?? She responds with pride: ?We are here to stay, we have amazing friends and we feel we can?t abandon others who can?t leave. Also educationally we want to teach our children what it means to fight for your country just by living here and spreading goodness around. Guy speaks of the remarkable feeling of community on their own, remarkable sense of identity and belonging. Guy and his wife adopted a British young soldier while he is in the army. Can you imagine a family in Sderot adopting kids to watch over them while they are in Israel? Wreckage from a direct hit from a kassam missile Afternoon, the Sarah Peretz Miracle Direct hits from Kassams while you are in the house usually means funerals. The remarkable act of God?s protection is that the Kassams most often miss their mark, or when they hit a home the family is not there. Then there are the stories which despite their tragic elements nevertheless send shivers down your spine realizing that this was truly an act of divine intervention. Sarah Peretz?s Story Friday evening in the Peretz house has been the same for the last 45 years ever since Sarah came with her family from Morocco. In their traditional home they welcome the Shabbat queen in their family room and their ten grandchildren come and play on the stairs and in the play room upstairs while Mr. Peretz and his sons in-law sit and recite the Friday evening piyut and divrei torah. In addition in the last few years, at the end of the meal their children just married would return to the upstairs bedroom where they currently live. This Shabbat was different. On Friday morning Mrs. Peretz didn?t feel right. She sensed something was wrong and she told her husband we are not having the kids over today. What? They told her that it is so important for the family to be together in these difficult times, but the matriarch was unmoved. They ended up sitting with the elder couple and their newly married children. Without proper fortification the rocket slices through the roof destroying anything in its way That night, the Shabbat dinner went a bit longer than usual, despite the lack of grandchildren playing upstairs, they enjoyed a quiet meal with a lot of divrei torah and beautiful songs of the Sephardic heritage. Suddenly, at the end of the meal a warning shouted out??tzeva adom, tzeva adom? and not twenty seconds later but only five seconds passed before they heard a big deafening BOOM, the kassam struck their house! Where? Upstairs, the whole second floor was destroyed in seconds. The stairs where the kids would be playing, the bedroom where the young couple would be sleeping, all of it decimated. But they were alone, they were downstairs away from harm, they were guarded by Shabbat, by their spirit, by God Himself. She also praised the Yeshiva boys and counselors of Makom Balev for continuing to inject the city with positive energy despite the difficult times. Mrs. Peretz cries at the torment, the hardship and the sadness she feels knowing her ten grandchildren though protected from harm today will be in harm?s way tomorrow. She nevertheless sees the hand of God in all of their actions, in their salvation at the hand of evil and in their ability to withstand the insanity that is living in planet Sderot. Kiruv as a Response to Terror In the heart of Sderot lies one of the biggest Hesder Yeshivot in Israel? Yeshivat Sderot. Over the period of the intense bombing the number of students has risen not lowered. This is due to the mission each student is imbibed with by Rabbi Fendel, the Rosh Yeshiva: Your Torah learning must be joined together with involvement in the community, acts of chesed, kiruv and connection. We at OU Israel are very honored to be working closely with the Yeshiva in our Kiruv efforts of Lev Yehudi. We were hosted by Rabbi Fendel and learned of the remarkable work they are doing on a day to day basis. Through our Kiruv programs together we provide 18 shiurim enhancing the lives of 570 individuals a week. 8th grade Makom Balev kid Ophir Cohen dances with the group Singing and Dancing We entered the Amit high school where some of the children were missing due to kassam attacks in the past. The school is only half fortified which calls for a unique educational method of evacuating and returning from class to class sometimes seven or eight times a day. The boys accept the reality and attempt to concentrate regardless of the insanity around them. We met with the Principal and as we entered the classroom we broke into song and dance with the twenty or thirty wide eyed, fourteen year olds. After a few minutes Rabbi Berman stood up and offered words of encouragement to the students, calling them future leaders due to the ability to withstand the trials and tribulations of a Sderot existence over the last years. Evening: A Sign of Light Amidst Darkness While it is heartwarming to hear her story it is overshadowed by the hundreds of stories we hear of kids in shock, parents unemployed, elderly injuring themselves running during a missile attack, and the scores of other circumstances which make their lives so heartbreaking. Our job at OU Israel is to continue to serve the Sderot community, stand firm in support of these courageous Jews and help them in any way we can until the evil is destroyed and this community will once again return to its peaceful picturesque nature. As we departed from Sderot we noticed a glimpse of a rainbow peeking out from behind the gloomy skies. The sliver represented our experience of a city striving to find its light, strengthening despite its being barraged daily, hoping that just as the biblical rainbow was a harbinger for an end of destruction and a dawn of a peaceful new beginning, so too we wish and pray that Sderot sees no more violence and finds its new dawn, with its empowered, inspired, and impassioned citizens to live and thrive in Eretz Yisrael. _Donate now!_ (http://www.ou.org/sderot/) Rabbi Avi Baumol is the Director of Communications for OU Israel **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080222/b53c0d22/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 22 06:43:57 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 07:43:57 EST Subject: [Dialogue] To inspire - "Shabbat - Rest Assured" Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Below are some lovely words of inspiration ("Sparks" as he likes to call them), from Rabbi David Aaron, the Founder of Isralight, my friend, teacher and former colleague (ALL of his books are well worth reading, BTW..). Enjoy! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... SPARKS by Rabbi David Aaron, Founder and Dean of Isralight (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001pyoPp2brmfDL-vUz8SxTRSb14aKTxbCO7y1PAydn6rPn51rHQlYL6XqwYpDF6SaOxOmKUctF RqNbeFQkuB8UHWQRG-zrNE8anYpSsp1ZtnVONinG1bF6_w==) Shabbat: Rest Assured (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001pyoPp2brmfB80Ow6RMmddU0RR__m1L86lk9pxCzy9pjCW-l7n42gNRRSTqoeilDPaX6Qz9u-STb9qFfiGEXK6zvI9sGVrKFU19WqWd1w jcNPXrjgJSh3RtARMT_kedd5ehqkFsDqOrKARRpB_O9TnUgZayeNfgzw) Keep the Shabbat for it is holy unto you..... because in six days G-d made heaven and earth: and on the seventh day He abstained from work and rested. (Exodus 31: 14-17) Some people can't stop. They don't know how to take a rest. They don't know how to put aside what they're doing. They're compulsive- slaves to their jobs. I rest on Shabbat because if I don't rest on Shabbat, then I mistakenly think that my life is my business, instead of G-d's business, and I am "self-employed." Imagine I'm working in a company and the company closes on Saturday, but I decide to go in to work anyway. Why? The Jewish attitude is that the human being is an agent for G-d, and because of this the human being can actually become an angel (malach) by accepting to do G-d's creative work (malacha). In other words, G-d created a world full of opportunities for creativity and He appointed me His agent to complete His creative work. If I'm all by myself, and I'm just a sole proprietor, it's no big deal. But when I feel like I'm part of a huge corporation, and we're all working for the Boss, that's different. And if the Boss closes the business on Saturday but I go into work just the same, then I am confusing myself by thinking that I don't need to follow his schedule, his rules, that this is my business and I do not work for anyone. When I don't work on Shabbat I remind myself that I'm really working for G-d. During the week I am empowered with His power-of-attorney to work on His behalf. I represent G-d in what I do in this world. This is a tremendous honor. G-d has entrusted me to do His job. He could have done it Himself if He wanted to, but He wanted me to do it so that I could be part of creation and contribute creatively. Yet somehow I could get confused and forget who I'm working for. If that happens then I have fallen into a very egotistical illusion that I work for myself, and that this creative work is my own, and that this world is mine and nobody else's business. When you celebrate Shabbat you remind yourself, "This world is G-d's business, and I just work here." That's why Shabbat is referred to as the source of all blessings. If I stop working on Shabbat, I'm affirming that my work throughout the week was for G-d's sake-then everything I do is blessed with the status of being holy work. There's a very cute animated cartoon about Shabbat produced by an organization called Gesher. It portrays a very busy day in Manhattan, a lot of noise and a lot of traffic, and you see a policeman in the middle of all this traffic, but he doesn't have a face-he has a whistle for a head. And then you see a lot of people walking down the street but nobody has a face; one fellow has a computer monitor for a head, another has a pen for a head, and another has a wrench for a head. It is a faceless world. Everyone has become his or her career. They are no longer people with careers, they are careers. There's a feeling of tension and every so often you see a clock that is ticking towards some set time. One fellow, who has a briefcase for a head, is shown walking quickly home. When he finally reaches his home, he enters, sits down in a soft chair, and an alarm clock rings. At that moment his briefcase head melts into a warm and smiling face and he joyfully says "Shabbat Shalom." This cute cartoon delivers the point-I can lose my humanness. I can become my career. If I become my career then my career leads me and I'm just a victim of a mechanistic world; I'm just another cog in a big machine called Planet Earth. Shabbat is the antidote to mechanism. Shabbat is the antidote to the notion that the world is simply some big machine constantly in motion. When I stop on Shabbat, I demonstrate that I am not a compulsive, laborious, mindless force, but rather I am a human being created in the image of G- d, here on earth to do G-d's work. Rabbi David Aaron Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting G-d In and Living A Joyous Life _For more of Rabbi Aaron's Sparks, click here. _ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001pyoPp2brmfCmaVD873WEvC_GtzaqE-njhwDifQd6RDM_ABkXeGSzozTeNlhScyaD58ZPX1BhtLkjb_U 3jSJdrCC3V7NNGIB_af39JBHhfnb4DopZPmpSJ8uuLzhAM7MhKdeiwdUKX6IBjHoPdeoKUpQfbLa9o dls) **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080222/03438b74/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Fri Feb 22 08:50:55 2008 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 08:50:55 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] To inspire - "Shabbat - Rest Assured" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43616DA1B74E44B58CD15BE639B4E380@sherryPC> Shalom Hanoch, Thank you so much for the "Sparks". These words ministered to me in a big way. May you have a blessed Shabbat. Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 6:43 AM Subject: [Dialogue] To inspire - "Shabbat - Rest Assured" Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Below are some lovely words of inspiration ("Sparks" as he likes to call them), from Rabbi David Aaron, the Founder of Isralight, my friend, teacher and former colleague (ALL of his books are well worth reading, BTW..). Enjoy! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... SPARKS by Rabbi David Aaron, Founder and Dean of Isralight Shabbat: Rest Assured Keep the Shabbat for it is holy unto you..... because in six days G-d made heaven and earth: and on the seventh day He abstained from work and rested. (Exodus 31: 14-17) Some people can't stop. They don't know how to take a rest. They don't know how to put aside what they're doing. They're compulsive- slaves to their jobs. I rest on Shabbat because if I don't rest on Shabbat, then I mistakenly think that my life is my business, instead of G-d's business, and I am "self-employed." Imagine I'm working in a company and the company closes on Saturday, but I decide to go in to work anyway. Why? The Jewish attitude is that the human being is an agent for G-d, and because of this the human being can actually become an angel (malach) by accepting to do G-d's creative work (malacha). In other words, G-d created a world full of opportunities for creativity and He appointed me His agent to complete His creative work. If I'm all by myself, and I'm just a sole proprietor, it's no big deal. But when I feel like I'm part of a huge corporation, and we're all working for the Boss, that's different. And if the Boss closes the business on Saturday but I go into work just the same, then I am confusing myself by thinking that I don't need to follow his schedule, his rules, that this is my business and I do not work for anyone. When I don't work on Shabbat I remind myself that I'm really working for G-d. During the week I am empowered with His power-of-attorney to work on His behalf. I represent G-d in what I do in this world. This is a tremendous honor. G-d has entrusted me to do His job. He could have done it Himself if He wanted to, but He wanted me to do it so that I could be part of creation and contribute creatively. Yet somehow I could get confused and forget who I'm working for. If that happens then I have fallen into a very egotistical illusion that I work for myself, and that this creative work is my own, and that this world is mine and nobody else's business. When you celebrate Shabbat you remind yourself, "This world is G-d's business, and I just work here." That's why Shabbat is referred to as the source of all blessings. If I stop working on Shabbat, I'm affirming that my work throughout the week was for G-d's sake-then everything I do is blessed with the status of being holy work. There's a very cute animated cartoon about Shabbat produced by an organization called Gesher. It portrays a very busy day in Manhattan, a lot of noise and a lot of traffic, and you see a policeman in the middle of all this traffic, but he doesn't have a face-he has a whistle for a head. And then you see a lot of people walking down the street but nobody has a face; one fellow has a computer monitor for a head, another has a pen for a head, and another has a wrench for a head. It is a faceless world. Everyone has become his or her career. They are no longer people with careers, they are careers. There's a feeling of tension and every so often you see a clock that is ticking towards some set time. One fellow, who has a briefcase for a head, is shown walking quickly home. When he finally reaches his home, he enters, sits down in a soft chair, and an alarm clock rings. At that moment his briefcase head melts into a warm and smiling face and he joyfully says "Shabbat Shalom." This cute cartoon delivers the point-I can lose my humanness. I can become my career. If I become my career then my career leads me and I'm just a victim of a mechanistic world; I'm just another cog in a big machine called Planet Earth. Shabbat is the antidote to mechanism. Shabbat is the antidote to the notion that the world is simply some big machine constantly in motion. When I stop on Shabbat, I demonstrate that I am not a compulsive, laborious, mindless force, but rather I am a human being created in the image of G- d, here on earth to do G-d's work. Rabbi David Aaron Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting G-d In and Living A Joyous Life For more of Rabbi Aaron's Sparks, click here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1291 - Release Date: 2/21/2008 11:05 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080222/ddfac0a9/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Fri Feb 22 09:04:13 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:04:13 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] To inspire - "Shabbat - Rest Assured" References: <43616DA1B74E44B58CD15BE639B4E380@sherryPC> Message-ID: <001801c87564$3b4b5030$6400a8c0@davesbook> Good post Hanoch........I am a "shovel head"........I will remember that I just work here....ha! dave ----- Original Message ----- From: sherry cole To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] To inspire - "Shabbat - Rest Assured" Shalom Hanoch, Thank you so much for the "Sparks". These words ministered to me in a big way. May you have a blessed Shabbat. Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 6:43 AM Subject: [Dialogue] To inspire - "Shabbat - Rest Assured" Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Below are some lovely words of inspiration ("Sparks" as he likes to call them), from Rabbi David Aaron, the Founder of Isralight, my friend, teacher and former colleague (ALL of his books are well worth reading, BTW..). Enjoy! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1291 - Release Date: 2/21/2008 11:05 AM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080222/74ee8297/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 22 13:34:05 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:34:05 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think about re: Parshat Ki Tisa Message-ID: Shabbat shalom chaverim yikarim, An interesting article below, something to think about over Shabbat. Hope you and your families have a restful, rejuvenating and fulfilling Shabbat. Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... Ki Tisa: The Convoluted Road 16 Adar 5768, 22 February 08 11:22 by Moshe Kempinski (IsraelNN.com) The "Land of Israel faithful" are still suffering from the post-expulsion malaise. The impact of the cruel and senseless "disengagement" and the brutality of Amona that followed have created deep wounds in the body and psyche of those motivated by the destiny of this nation. The fact that the many in Israel who have lost faith continue to flounder without direction is not surprising. There are many others who continue to be anchored in the roots of their past and continue to feel the pull and yearning of their destiny. Yet, the fact that those people too are feeling somewhat lost is much more concerning. These more committed and usually passion-filled people are feeling their spark being dimmed. They view the failed leadership of this country and then look at the possible alternatives with a resigned "anything is better than Olmert" approach. Ominous signs seem to be lurking all around this land. The horizon seems to be covered with darkening and threatening clouds. The cancer of selfishness and violence seems to be eating away at the edges of society, and spreads its tentacles into the very heart of Israel's schools. As a result, many conversations and encounters between the activists of past struggles usually revolve around a sense of futility and impotence. Every thought or new idea that is raised usually gets dismissed with a comment similar to "we've been there" or "we've done that." The Internet talkbacks are usually filled with innocuous advice that demands violent action and revolution. It is interesting to note that most of these comments come from people who do not live in the land of Israel .People who have never had the courage or faith to live with the consequences of their suggestions and ideas. Yet, while the sense of morass is understandable, it comes out of mistaken expectations. Man has a tendency to get so focused on his desired solutions that he loses faith in, and patience with, the process of achieving that solution. Sometimes, we are so focused on the destination that we forget the journey. We are so clear on where we want to get to that we judge the methods of getting there by how instantly they can achieve success. We have a deep sense of the awesome power of redemption, yet it seems its very awesomeness makes it almost intangible. We prefer to deal with and revere the here and now, things that we can understand. The tortuous and circuitous paths of redemption become too complicated for some. It is at that point that men and women begin to make people and activities into their "idols." They begin to revere these things in order to achieve shortcuts to their desired goal. Political leaders become the ultimate solution and savior, until they fail and are succeeded by another. Political parties or political activism become the last ray of hope needed to rush redemption along. When those fail, we are left with sadness, despondency and a sense of futility. That, perhaps, is one of the tests that must be endured. "And when the people saw that Moshe delayed to come down from the mountain, the people gathered themselves together to Aharon, and said to him, 'Make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for Moshe, the man who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.'" ( Exodus 32:1) Aharon, Moshe's brother, stalls for time and believes that all will be well, as Rashi states: "In his heart he intended it should be for Heaven (G-d); he was certain that Moshe would arrive and they would serve the Omnipresent." Yet, eventually he extracts the golden calf out of the fire . "And they said, These are your gods, O Israel, which brought you up out of the Land of Egypt." (Exodus 32:4) The people of Israel were not building an idol to replace G-d. They were building one to replace Moshe. That is the sub-textual meaning in their declaration, "These are your gods, O Israel." They were willing to have a festival for HaShem as Aharon suggested, but they could not conceive of continuing their voyage towards redemption without Moshe, "the man who brought us out of the land of Egypt." As a result, in their confusion, impatience and fear they made the "man" Moshe almost into a god; and when he was missing they wanted to replace him with the golden calf. The people of Israel today cannot fall into the same trap. The lovers of this land need to return to the secret that has moved Jewish destiny forward throughout the generations. That secret is the understanding that the little picture is the big picture. The power to walk forward in this journey lies in the ability to focus on each step in the journey. It is a delicate balance of, on the one hand, not confusing each step with the ultimate destination and, on the other hand, imbuing each step on the journey with fervor and commitment. As a result, building a ramshackle synagogue on a windswept hill in Samaria may not herald the final resolution, but it will have great impact on the history of our people. Reaching out to fellow Jews on the corners of Tel Aviv in order to help them reconnect to their souls may seem like "too little and too late," yet it is actions like those that give direction to this long journey. Getting involved with one political party or another may feel like a filthy process that is injurious to one's soul, but it is one of the necessary steps in returning faithful government and rulership to this ancient nation. At the recent Jerusalem Conference, held under the auspices of Arutz-7, General Doron Almog shared the following story. When he was in charge of the southern region of Israel during the years of increased terrorism, he gave a press conference after the murder of two female Israeli soldiers. During the press conference, General Almog declared that the numbers of terror victims had "reached unbearable levels." At that point, he was interrupted by a senior reporter who said, "Don't you dare talk about unbearable levels of victims." He raised his shirt cuff and exposed the numbers that were tattooed onto his arm in the concentration camps. The older man continued to explain that he could truly describe unbearable numbers, yet he and his fellow survivors came to this land and never gave up on the struggle. That was true because destiny demanded it. Destiny continues to demand that this eternal people not lose courage on this long voyage **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080222/3d41b997/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Wed Feb 20 18:15:17 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:15:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Grandma's Hands Message-ID: Subject: Grandma's Hands I think this is worth sending to all. Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:39:53 -0500 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I remember my Grandmother's hands always with a rosary in them if she wasn't braiding a rug! BFR Subject: Grandma's Hands ------------------------------------------------------------------------ JUST LOOK AT THE PICTURE A GOOD WHILE, AND THEN READ THE REST. IT WILL TOUCH YOU. I was privileged to take a photo of 'Five Generations of Women' shortly before my 93 year-old Grandmother passed away last year. The photo, shown below, features the hands of my Grandmother, Mom, Sister, Niece and Great-Niece. While I can't take credit for the idea, I was so happy to have had the suggestion & capture this moment. It inspired a friend of mine to do something similar which turned out so beautiful and a special keepsake prior to her father's passing. Grandma's Hands GRANDMA'S HANDS A must read thru to the end please!!!!!!!!!!!!! Grandma, some ninety plus years, sat feebly on the patio bench. She didn't move, just sat with her head down staring at her hands. When I sat down beside her she didn't acknowledge my presence and the longer I sat I wondered if she was OK. Finally, not really wanting to disturb her but wanting to check on her at the same time, I asked her if she was OK. She raised her head and looked at me and smiled. 'Yes, I'm fine, thank you for asking,' she said in a clear voice strong. 'I didn't mean to disturb you, grandma, but you were just sitting here staring at your hands and I wanted to make sure you were OK,' I explained to her. 'Have you ever looked at your hands,' she asked. 'I mean really looked at your hands?' I slowly opened my hands and stared down at them. I turned them over, palms up and then palms down. No, I guess I had never really looked at my hands as I tried to figure out the point she was making. Grandma smiled and related this story: 'Stop and think for a moment about the hands you have, how they have served you well throughout your years. These hands, though wrinkled shriveled and weak have been the tools I have used all my life to reach out and grab and embrace life. 'They braced and caught my fall when as a toddler I crashed upon the floor. They put food in my mouth and clothes on my back. As a child, my mother taught me to fold them in prayer. They tied my shoes and pulled on my boots. They held my husband and wiped my tears when he went off to war. 'They have been dirty, scraped and raw , swollen and bent. They were uneasy and clumsy when I tried to hold my newborn son. Decorated with my wedding band they showed the world that I was married and loved someone special They wrote my letters to him and trembled and shook when I buried my parents and spouse. 'They have held my children and grandchildren, consoled neighbors, and shook in fists of anger when I didn't understand. They have covered my face, combed my hair, and washed and cleansed the rest of my body. They have been sticky and wet, bent and broken, dried and raw. And to this day when not much of anything else of me works real well these hands hold me up, lay me down, and again continue to fold in prayer. 'These hands are the mark of where I've been and the ruggedness of life. But more importantly it will be these hands that God will reach out and take when he leads me home. And with my hands He will lift me to His side and there I will use these hands to touch the face of G-d. I will never look at my hands the same again. But I remember God reached out and took my grandma's hands and led her home. When my hands are hurt or sore or when I stroke the face of my children and husband I think of grandma. I know she has been stroked and caressed and held by the hands of God. I, too, want to touch the face of God and feel His hands upon my face. When you receive this, say a prayer for the person who sent it to you, and watch God's answer to prayer work in your life. Let's continue praying for one another. Passing this on to anyone you consider a friend will bless you both. Passing this on to one not yet considered a friend is something Christ would do. -- Author Unknown ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. This is an e-mail from Wabash Technologies, Incorporated.It is confidential to the ordinary user of the above e-mail address.It may contain copyright and/or legally privileged information.No other person may read, print, store, copy, forward,or act in reliance on it or its attachments. If you received this in error, please e-mail to humanresources at wabashtech.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your 'fix'. Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/1a146b47/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 64536 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080220/1a146b47/attachment.jpe From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 22 14:42:46 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:42:46 EST Subject: [Dialogue] To inspire - "Shabbat - Rest Assured" Message-ID: Hey Sherry - I'm so glad that you found it meaningful. It's the kind of message that I think the entire world could benefit from....Shabbat Shalom! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080222/1292348a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 22 14:44:52 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:44:52 EST Subject: [Dialogue] To inspire - "Shabbat - Rest Assured" Message-ID: Hey Dave, Well, think of it this way - you can remain a handsome and happy "shovel head!" :-) :-) Shabbat Shalom & Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080222/817c6cd5/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 22 16:13:38 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:13:38 EST Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim. Well, I was reading the NT again last night, and once again I came across the question that I was wrestling with a week or so, ago. Now the responses I received (thanks again!) focused on the fact that once Rome dominated Christianity, it didn't matter whether James', Peter's or Paul's approach would have been, or was. Okay, BUT, if we could forget about the Romans for a moment....what would it have meant for the early Yeshua/Jesus movement IF (again, "IF") James had lived, and he remained the central leader of what became Christianity? Yeah, I know - I'm asking the same question - just phrasing it a different way :-) Looking forward to your insights. Shabbat Shalom to all!! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080222/d7cfb761/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Fri Feb 22 21:37:23 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 21:37:23 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? References: Message-ID: <00ba01c875cd$693c63d0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Good point (forgetting about Rome)....My opinion was that very little would have changed with how the current religion of Christianity was shaped and morphed into what it is today by James' murder. My guess is, that If James' had lived longer and had been able to influence the "movement" along more Hebraic thought then maybe more of his writings or Ideas would have been included in the "addendum" that is called the new testament. As I understand, the book of James barley made it into the cannon of scripture. The what if question really is, do we feel that James would have been able to contribute more "writings" and would these writings been more in line with the True message of Yeshua.......or more Torah based. If so, and if "the way" was some how now more popular,( assuming it would be) then the idea of the 'narrow path and few that find it' would be less obvious. In other words I see mainstream Christianity as the Broad way that many take. Take away Rome and what do we have......A religion closer to the Truth? one that more people follow, or less? ANYWAY we live in 'the day' and the way I see it, James has alot to say and we can get a glimpse of how he saw 'religion' and how it should be. The book of James has always touched me in a way that rang true in my spirit. Sort of a cut to the chase sort of way. I guess what I am trying to say is that if James had lived longer and IF he had been more of an influence to Christianity then We (truth seekers) would probably have an easer job trying to figure out what is authentic and what was snuck in and why. what if we had a time machine......... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 4:13 PM Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Shalom Chaverim Yikarim. Well, I was reading the NT again last night, and once again I came across the question that I was wrestling with a week or so, ago. Now the responses I received (thanks again!) focused on the fact that once Rome dominated Christianity, it didn't matter whether James', Peter's or Paul's approach would have been, or was. Okay, BUT, if we could forget about the Romans for a moment....what would it have meant for the early Yeshua/Jesus movement IF (again, "IF") James had lived, and he remained the central leader of what became Christianity? Yeah, I know - I'm asking the same question - just phrasing it a different way :-) Looking forward to your insights. Shabbat Shalom to all!! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080222/fe3e18a6/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Feb 23 00:18:07 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:18:07 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Message-ID: <022320080618.16084.47BFBA9B0005C58900003ED422230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Hanoch, Well, here is my answer to the underlying question. First let me say that I am certainly no scholar in these matters, all I have is my understanding of the books of the NT as I have studied them and as others have written about them. I believe it would be presumptious of me (or anyone else for that matter) to claim to understand the personalities of men who lived two thousand years ago by virtue of reading a few of thier letters. That belief goes to the root of my own skepticism as to whether any of the letters deserve to carry the weight they have gained over the milennia. A simple example of the problem with this is the interpretation that was recently given of Paul's statement regarding being all things to all people. The interpretation assumed that Paul would and could compromise his faith in order to spread the Gospel. I never read his words that way. My interpretation is that he was willing and able to utilize the traditions and beliefs of other cultures he encountered to spread the Gospel as long as doing so did NOT compromise his faith. For instance, I have learned over the last couple of years to call Jesus by his Hebrew name Yeshua because, well, that is his name. But when I am speaking about spiritual matters to my Christian friends who have not learned what I have yet, I use the Greek spelling. I find that if, in these discussions, I start off by changing his name (even though I know I am not) then I put some people on the defensive immediately and they stop listening. What purpose does that serve? So am I lying? I don't think so, I think am simply choosing my battles without compromising my faith and saving deeper truths for more fertile minds. Anyway, given that what we have to study is what is before us and setting aside the eventual waylaying of the Way by the Roman Empire as much as we can, here is my take. We must take each of the authors in context with regards to thier own history, relationship to Jesus, position and thier audience. James was Jesus's brother and the movement's leader after Jesus was crucified. He was raised with Jesus and though he was not (in my opinion) anointed in the same way Jesus was, he was most certainly as well schooled in the the scriptures as Jesus. He was an influential Jewish man, though not a priest and because of his relationship to Jesus (as well as leadership ability) he became the leader of the movement IN JERUSALEM. His letter was clearly addressed to the twelve tibes in the diaspora, NOT the gentiles. There is no indication that what he had to say would have been automatically passed on to the gentile believers by those he wrote to. Peter was among the first of the Apostles by the Gospel account (at least first of those not in the family). He was clearly one of the most outspoken and probably one of Jesus's most devoted. By he was a fisherman and probably not well educated (except for what I will call "street smarts"). The relevant part of his story is that he was given a vision regarding the acceptability of allowing gentiles into the movement without full conversion to Judiasm. While it is apparent that his letters were addressed to all believers (Jewish and gentile), he was by no means as prolific in his ministry to the Gentiles as Paul seems to have been. His letters seem to be targeted at keeping the peace. Paul was a Rabbi, a Pharisee, highly educated, very influential and persuasive. A man who by all accounts seems to have started out martyring Messianic Jews only to find himself the self-proclaimed messenger to the gentiles, talk about a 180! His letters are always to the gentile churches although it is probable that many of those churches had some population of Messianic Jews among them. Whatever his motivation he was certainly convinced that his mission was to all of the churches EXCEPT JERUSALEM. My point is this, in the Jerusalem council which was called to address the gentile controversy, James settled the matter by declaring which parts of the Levitical Law must be observed by the gentiles. SO the question becomes one of whether more would have been required of the gentiles by James as they became more knowledgeable in the Law if he had lived longer. The only indication of that is what we have in James letter. But his letter was not written to the gentiles, it was written to the Jewish believers and by the time of it's writing both Paul and Peter were well on thier way with his previous instructions to the gentiles. So the main messengers to the gentiles seem to have been bypassed by his later instructions. I don't see how this method of influence could have possibly made a significant difference regardless of how long James had lived. So unless James had taken some strong measures to exert influence had he lived, I think we would have wound up with a VERY Jewish s ect of the movement and a SOMEWHAT Jewish sect of the movement, though both would probably look far more Jewish than what we have today and neither would be as extensive as what we have today. My two cents. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Shalom Chaverim Yikarim. Well, I was reading the NT again last night, and once again I came across the question that I was wrestling with a week or so, ago. Now the responses I received (thanks again!) focused on the fact that once Rome dominated Christianity, it didn't matter whether James', Peter's or Paul's approach would have been, or was. Okay, BUT, if we could forget about the Romans for a moment....what would it have meant for the early Yeshua/Jesus movement IF (again, "IF") James had lived, and he remained the central leader of what became Christianity? Yeah, I know - I'm asking the same question - just phrasing it a different way :-) Looking forward to your insights. Shabbat Shalom to all!! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080223/6797124d/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sat Feb 23 06:58:16 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:58:16 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Message-ID: Hi Hanoch: Unfortunately for a correct understanding of what the branchite movement was all about, Christianity is a misnomer, since the movement never passed beyond a sect within late second temple Judaism see Acts 24;5. **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080223/341c3c9f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:13:38 EST Size: 6427 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080223/341c3c9f/attachment.mht From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Feb 23 19:16:06 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 19:16:06 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, but whose country is it?? In-Reply-To: <8CA405ABA5F2280-12D4-1D5F@mblk-d31.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c87682$d5295160$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Hanoch, This is deplorable and so heart-breaking and downright scary to even think of the implications if this violence and anti-Israel demonstrations are allowed to go unchecked, as are the conditions in "Planet Sderot" which are met with closed eyes by the weak government. Thank-you for keeping us so informed. I really don't think any other country, especially the U.S. and European nations, would tolerate this for a minute! And the sad thing is that our media is too busy covering the" faux paux" of Michelle Obama, and the alleged affair that "might have occurred" between Senator McCain and a lobbyist several years back!!! Pretty ridiculous! Praying for the Peace of Jerusalem, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:33 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Yes, but whose country is it?? Hey Kim, If you view the ENTIRE situation, as one whole entity....then it can easily become overwhelming. That's why I suggest that we break it into small parts that each of us can have an impact upon. I have to prepare NEXT year's budgets before I leave for Israel (we just completed THIS year's mid-year revisions!! Grrrr...I hate this about not-for-profits!), so I am a bit pressed for time (LOL...yeah, just a bit..). So, with your permission, I would like to share some suggestions over the course of several emails over the next few days, okay? But don't forget - prayer IS the most important, but still - keep those emails and calls going!! First suggestion: 'Spread the TRUTH!' Each of us has our 'personal' email lists of friends and relatives. When you see, or receive something that you think is informative or helpful - SPREAD IT AROUND!!! :-) More to follow shortly Kim, but if possible - I would also get as involved with Rav Uri's shul that you possibly can. Not only does he have good ideas himself, but there ARE strength in numbers.... Gotta run for now - but more as I can - and Kim, thanks for caring so much; you are truly one of HaShem's special daughters, no doubt about it...... Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we ALL know that Rav Kahane was right.... -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:16 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Yes, but whose country is it?? Hanoch, This just seems so overwhelming. Any suggestions? What can we do here? We pray, we write letters, we send emails. What else should we be doing? Kim On Feb 17, 2008 6:41 AM, wrote: Boker tov L'Kulchem, Please read this article carefully and pass it along...we have already waited too long... Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah What if an Arab was elected Prime Minister of Israel? by Nadia Matar Denial is a well-known psychological mechanism. A threatening problem is created. The individual denies the problem for a certain amount of time, but it eventually explodes in his face. The people of Israel are in total denial regarding the problem of Israeli Arabs. After watching a video recording of a demonstration by Israeli Arabs in Haifa, I decided that the time has come to raise this issue, knowing full well that this is a subject that many people are afraid to touch. The video recording that appears on the "Netnet" web site shows a recent demonstration in Haifa.(See link to the video at the end of the article). We see in the video scores of Arabs waving flags of Palestine and chanting anti-Israel slogans. Here are a few quotes from the report by Boaz Golan that accompanies the recording: "The Jews who live in the German Colony in Haifa are in shock. Their ears do not want to hear, and woe to the eyes that see ... Here in Haifa, under the Bahai gardens, right next to the Haifa Municipality's Tourist Association - here, in our home, in a state that is talking about its 60th [anniversary] celebrations, right here, we live as if in a prison. Here, in our home, the Arabs are raising their heads ... This infuriating demonstration lasted for days. A Palestinian demonstration against the state, against the public at large, against the Jewish people. Against me and against you. Flags of Palestine fly in the face of passersby. Gaza is here in Haifa, in our very home! Jewish drivers pass by, honk their horns, and call out to them: "Go to Gaza," but scores of Arabs continue to chant their slogans against the state, and are not afraid to shout out loud: "Beirut," "Damascus," "Palestine"! ... This is how the State of Israel is ... in a country in which corruption runs wild and Arabism flourishes." The demonstration in Haifa is, of course, only one of the many examples of the dramatic rise in the nationalistic extremism of Israeli Arabs, that is expressed not only in chanting anti-Israel slogans, but also in acts and in violence against Jews. Naturally, in all these instances, the "Israeli law enforcement" system, does not lift a finger. In Akko and in Jaffa Israeli Arabs attack Jews. No one says anything, True, a few Members of Knesset came to show their shock before the cameras. Dozens of young couples have moved to these cities, in order to strengthen the Jewish residents. This positive initiative is to be applauded, but, at the present time, there can be no doubt that this act is like giving aspirin to a cancer patient. Recently we hear of stone throwing at Jewish vehicles by Israeli Arabs in Galilee. This hardly makes the headlines. Just imagine what the media would have done if Jews had thrown stones at Arabs! Jewish girls walking about in malls in the north where there is an Arab majority suffer sexual harassment, and take their lives in their hands if they just go shopping. Does this bother anyone? Is anyone willing to say, right out loud: "In Israel in 2008, Israeli Arabs are attacking Jews"? No, everyone remains silent and denies the problem. Last year, dozens of Jews celebrated Yom ha-Atzmaut (Israel Independence Day) in the forest of Megiddo. A group of Israeli Arabs arrived, with flags of Palestine, riding on horses, and forced the Jews to flee from the city. Except for the Arutz 7 web site, did anyone cover this subject? Not to mention that the police did not arrest even a single Arab rioter. And what about the quiet and nonviolent Arab conquest that is being conducted in many places in Israel? Anyone who visits the Hadassah-Mount Scopus and Hadassah-Ein Karem hospitals could mistakenly think that he was in Ramallah. There are countless Arab doctors, and hundreds of Arab patients and Arab clans in the corridors. The situation is the same in the universities, the courts, and so on... Jewish children no longer play in the Liberty Bell Garden, between the Inbal Hotel and the King David Hotel. It has been "conquered" by hundreds of Arab families, and Jewish mothers fear to bring their children there. Make no mistake. Unlike other countries, in which minorities act with respect and submission to the host country, a considerable portion of the Israeli Arabs act as if they were the lords of the land, while we Jews seem to them as causal visitors who bother them! I ask: is this the "Jewish State" of which its founders dreamed? The government of Israel relates to this issue from a quite interesting direction. A few days age we were informed that Interior Minister Meir Sheetrit is acting to establish a new Arab city, apparently in the Galilee. "No New Arab City Has Been Established Since the Establishment of the State," cry out the newspaper headlines in favor of a new Arab city. Truly, there is no better way to portray the Israeli government that is celebrating 60 years since the establishment of the Jewish state: a government that freezes all Jewish construction in Judea, Samaria, and even in the capital Jerusalem, and instead of this channels its resources and money into the establishment of an Arab city. I don't know whether to cry or laugh bitterly. The left and the Arab street, of course, are full of joy and elation. But why does the national camp remain silent? Where is the outcry? Where are the rabbis who are supposed to remind us that, on account of "show them no quarter" (Deuteronomy 7:2), we must not allow non-Jews to encamp in Israel? This means: it is forbidden to sell them a house, it is forbidden to rent them a house. And it certainly is forbidden to build them a city. And just what is the meaning of an "Arab city"? Will they put a sign at the entrance to the city: "No Entry for Jews"? Is there actually any "Jewish city" in the State of Israel? Israeli Arabs can live in any city in Israel. Arabs live in Haifa, Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan, Jerusalem, and after the anti-Zionist ruling by Aharon Barak, Arabs also moved to Katzir and Harish. If Jews, in contrast, would dare to buy in Umm el-Fahm, Daliyat al-Karmil, Baka el-Garbiye, or any other Arab village in Galilee or the Negev, it is clear to all that they would be subject to a pogrom, just as the Druze did to make the city of Peki'in free of Jews a few months ago. As you remember, in late October 2007, Druze used the pretext of a new cellular antenna to riot against the Jewish families in the town. Jewish houses and cars were torched; tens of Israeli policemen were wounded; one policewoman was held hostage. The end result: all Jewish families left Pekiin and have not returned yet. (see links to articles about Pekiin riots at the end of the article). And if we continue to be silent about this topic, what will happen in another twenty years? Will anyone relate to these questions? The left tells us that we must "separate ourselves" from Judea and Samaria in order to preserve Israel as a Jewish state. This, however, is the false propaganda of the anti-Jewish left, that dreams of the destruction of the Jewish settlement in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, for no reason other than hatred for the settlers, and that attempts to advance its dream by spreading empty slogans. The Arabs of Judea and Samaria do not constitute a threat to the State of Israel. They are not citizens. It is specifically Israeli Arabs who threaten Israel as a Jewish state. Why is no one in our camp willing to propose a solution to the issue of Israeli Arabs in a country that wants to be a Jewish state? Rabbi Benny Elon's Israel Initiative relates to the Arabs of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, while Avigdor Leiberman's "exchange of territories" idea should be categorically rejected, since it speaks of handing over parts of the land of Israel to Arabs. The only one who dared to broach this subject was Rabbi Meir Kahane, of blessed memory, may G-d avenge his blood. In 1980, when he was in the Ramle prison, he wrote a book entitled They Must Go (the Hebrew title means "Stings in Your Eyes," from the verse in the book of Numbers [33:55]: "But if you do not dispossess the inhabitants of the land, those whom you allow to remain shall be stings in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land in which you live"). Based on the Jewish halakhah, and supported by dozens of historical examples of other peoples who struggled with hostile minorities that lived in their midst, Rabbi Kahane proposed that we separate ourselves from the Arabs. Only in this way will Israel be able to survive as a Jewish state. The details of the plan and the ways to implement them are set forth in his book. Despite its having been written in 1980, it is still extremely relevant. We can either accept or reject what Rabbi Kahane wrote, but one thing is clear: we cannot continue to ignore this question. If we continue to bury our heads in the sand, one day we will wake up after elections and hear the broadcaster announce in the news: It's an upheaval! After Arab mayors were elected in Haifa, Beersheva, and Jerusalem a few years ago, today an Arab Prime Minister has been elected in Israel! Mabruk and Salaam Aleikum!" And what will we do then? True, many people are afraid to touch the issue, for fear of being accused of "racism." But we cannot lose the Jewish state out of "fear of racism." If an Israeli government minister is not accused of racism for establishing an Arab city free of Jews, and if all the members of the Sharon government, who expelled our brethren from Gush Katif and northern Samaria just because they were Jews, were not accused of racism, then I an certain that the charge of racism will not be raised against those who propose deposing the present government and replacing it with a government that will advance the idea of a truly Jewish state - which means: Jewish sovereignty over all of Eretz Yisrael and Jewish control of its future. Since the hostile Arab minority will not be pleased by this,everyone will eventually understand that separation is the only solution: The Jews in Eretz Yisrael, and the Arabs in the Arab countries. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to the video about the Arab demonstration in Haifa: (the text is in Hebrew but one does need to speak Hebrew to understand what is going on on the video) http://www.netnet.co.il/showart.php?art_id=853 Ynet article: Last Jewish family leaves Pekiin after riots: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3478336,00.html Ynet article: Druze vandalize Jewish property: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466794,00.html Ynet article: Policewoman recounts "hell" in Pekiin: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466059,00.html ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org http://www.womeningreen.org _____ Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080223/160e2140/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Feb 23 19:41:59 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 19:41:59 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] While I was looking through the Tanach... In-Reply-To: <8CA3FBD25B96D29-15F0-1EEE@FWM-M19.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00d001c87686$72cfb7d0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, trying to play catch-up on my email. I looks like you sent this one last week. Do we know who the nations are that are listed below? Blessings and Shavua tov! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 2:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] While I was looking through the Tanach... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, A quote for this afternoon, as I was browsing through the Tanach: Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah "Woe to the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Keretim! the word of the L-rd is against you; O Kena'an, the land of the Pelishtim, I will destroy thee, so that there shall be no inhabitant. And the sea coast shall be pastures, and meadowsfor shepherds, and folds for flocks. And it shall be an allotment for the remnant of the house of Yehuda; they shall feed there; in the houses of Ashqelon they shall lie down in the evening; for the L-rd their G-d shall remember them, and restore their captivity." Zephaniah 2:5-8 _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080223/498ecab7/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Feb 23 20:02:54 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 20:02:54 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? In-Reply-To: <00ba01c875cd$693c63d0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <00db01c87689$5e5d0250$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dave, I agree, Rome had an explosive effect (and not in a good way) on the early movement of the followers of Yeshua and by changing the Sabbath to Sunday, Pesach to Easter, and so forth; and by so doing, basically "paganized" HaShem's Holy Days. The Book of James has always spoken to my heart too as it is so practical and to the point.very down to earth.much like you are Dave! Best wishes for you and Sherry to have a good week! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Good point (forgetting about Rome)....My opinion was that very little would have changed with how the current religion of Christianity was shaped and morphed into what it is today by James' murder. My guess is, that If James' had lived longer and had been able to influence the "movement" along more Hebraic thought then maybe more of his writings or Ideas would have been included in the "addendum" that is called the new testament. As I understand, the book of James barley made it into the cannon of scripture. The what if question really is, do we feel that James would have been able to contribute more "writings" and would these writings been more in line with the True message of Yeshua.......or more Torah based. If so, and if "the way" was some how now more popular,( assuming it would be) then the idea of the 'narrow path and few that find it' would be less obvious. In other words I see mainstream Christianity as the Broad way that many take. Take away Rome and what do we have......A religion closer to the Truth? one that more people follow, or less? ANYWAY we live in 'the day' and the way I see it, James has alot to say and we can get a glimpse of how he saw 'religion' and how it should be. The book of James has always touched me in a way that rang true in my spirit. Sort of a cut to the chase sort of way. I guess what I am trying to say is that if James had lived longer and IF he had been more of an influence to Christianity then We (truth seekers) would probably have an easer job trying to figure out what is authentic and what was snuck in and why. what if we had a time machine......... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 4:13 PM Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Shalom Chaverim Yikarim. Well, I was reading the NT again last night, and once again I came across the question that I was wrestling with a week or so, ago. Now the responses I received (thanks again!) focused on the fact that once Rome dominated Christianity, it didn't matter whether James', Peter's or Paul's approach would have been, or was. Okay, BUT, if we could forget about the Romans for a moment....what would it have meant for the early Yeshua/Jesus movement IF (again, "IF") James had lived, and he remained the central leader of what became Christianity? Yeah, I know - I'm asking the same question - just phrasing it a different way :-) Looking forward to your insights. Shabbat Shalom to all!! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... _____ Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080223/261438f4/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Feb 23 14:52:52 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:52:52 -0600 Subject: FW: [Dialogue] Grandma's Hands Message-ID: <00ae01c8765e$0e9cce60$643c66c9@bettygivin> _____ Thank-you, Dick. This was beautiful and especially meaningful to me. I will definitely pass it on to my friends and my daughters, who are my friends. I do so remember my mother's hands and my grandmother's hands. We are looking forward to a new one in our family this summer with the birth of Kim's grandchildchild. We will then have 4 generations again. If mother had lived another year, we would have had 5. This has encouraged me to take a picture like this to pass down from generation to generation. Shabbat Shalom, Betty/Elisheva _____ Subject: Grandma's Hands _____ JUST LOOK AT THE PICTURE A GOOD WHILE, AND THEN READ THE REST. IT WILL TOUCH YOU. I was privileged to take a photo of 'Five Generations of Women' shortly before my 93 year-old Grandmother passed away last year. The photo, shown below, features the hands of my Grandmother, Mom, Sister, Niece and Great-Niece. While I can't take credit for the idea, I was so happy to have had the suggestion & capture this moment. It inspired a friend of mine to do something similar which turned out so beautiful and a special keepsake prior to her father's passing. Grandma's Hands GRANDMA'S HANDS A must read thru to the end please!!!!!!!!!!!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080223/ba15668e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 64536 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080223/ba15668e/attachment.jpe From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Feb 23 23:55:05 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:55:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] To inspire - "Shabbat - Rest Assured" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <014901c876a9$ce5a63c0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Let me add my thanks to Sherry's and Dave's to you for sharing this, Hanoch. I loved this! It was excellent!!! This is light and lovely, but has so much meaning! I clicked on the link at the bottom and look forward to reading the other "Sparks." I just received an email that Rabbi Aaron is going to be a guest on Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem. I will forward the email along with the link to the list in case some might be interested in checking it out. Thanks for sharing. Hope you had a blessed Shabbat! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 6:44 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] To inspire - "Shabbat - Rest Assured" Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Below are some lovely words of inspiration ("Sparks" as he likes to call them), from Rabbi David Aaron, the Founder of Isralight, my friend, teacher and former colleague (ALL of his books are well worth reading, BTW..). Enjoy! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... SPARKS by Rabbi David Aaron, Founder and Dean of Isralight http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001pyoPp2brmfDL-vUz8SxTRSb14aKTxbCO7y1PAydn6rPn51rHQ lYL6XqwYpDF6SaOxOmKUctFRqNbeFQkuB8UHWQRG-zrNE8anYpSsp1ZtnVONinG1bF6_w== Shabbat: Rest Assured http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001pyoPp2brmfB80Ow6RMmddU0RR__m1L86lk9pxCzy9pjCW-l7n 42gNRRSTqoeilDPaX6Qz9u-STb9qFfiGEXK6zvI9sGVrKFU19WqWd1wjcNPXrjgJSh3RtARMT_ke dd5ehqkFsDqOrKARRpB_O9TnUgZayeNfgzw Keep the Shabbat for it is holy unto you..... because in six days G-d made heaven and earth: and on the seventh day He abstained from work and rested. (Exodus 31: 14-17) Some people can't stop. They don't know how to take a rest. They don't know how to put aside what they're doing. They're compulsive- slaves to their jobs. I rest on Shabbat because if I don't rest on Shabbat, then I mistakenly think that my life is my business, instead of G-d's business, and I am "self-employed." Imagine I'm working in a company and the company closes on Saturday, but I decide to go in to work anyway. Why? The Jewish attitude is that the human being is an agent for G-d, and because of this the human being can actually become an angel (malach) by accepting to do G-d's creative work (malacha). In other words, G-d created a world full of opportunities for creativity and He appointed me His agent to complete His creative work. If I'm all by myself, and I'm just a sole proprietor, it's no big deal. But when I feel like I'm part of a huge corporation, and we're all working for the Boss, that's different. And if the Boss closes the business on Saturday but I go into work just the same, then I am confusing myself by thinking that I don't need to follow his schedule, his rules, that this is my business and I do not work for anyone. When I don't work on Shabbat I remind myself that I'm really working for G-d. During the week I am empowered with His power-of-attorney to work on His behalf. I represent G-d in what I do in this world. This is a tremendous honor. G-d has entrusted me to do His job. He could have done it Himself if He wanted to, but He wanted me to do it so that I could be part of creation and contribute creatively. Yet somehow I could get confused and forget who I'm working for. If that happens then I have fallen into a very egotistical illusion that I work for myself, and that this creative work is my own, and that this world is mine and nobody else's business. When you celebrate Shabbat you remind yourself, "This world is G-d's business, and I just work here." That's why Shabbat is referred to as the source of all blessings. If I stop working on Shabbat, I'm affirming that my work throughout the week was for G-d's sake-then everything I do is blessed with the status of being holy work. There's a very cute animated cartoon about Shabbat produced by an organization called Gesher. It portrays a very busy day in Manhattan, a lot of noise and a lot of traffic, and you see a policeman in the middle of all this traffic, but he doesn't have a face-he has a whistle for a head. And then you see a lot of people walking down the street but nobody has a face; one fellow has a computer monitor for a head, another has a pen for a head, and another has a wrench for a head. It is a faceless world. Everyone has become his or her career. They are no longer people with careers, they are careers. There's a feeling of tension and every so often you see a clock that is ticking towards some set time. One fellow, who has a briefcase for a head, is shown walking quickly home. When he finally reaches his home, he enters, sits down in a soft chair, and an alarm clock rings. At that moment his briefcase head melts into a warm and smiling face and he joyfully says "Shabbat Shalom." This cute cartoon delivers the point-I can lose my humanness. I can become my career. If I become my career then my career leads me and I'm just a victim of a mechanistic world; I'm just another cog in a big machine called Planet Earth. Shabbat is the antidote to mechanism. Shabbat is the antidote to the notion that the world is simply some big machine constantly in motion. When I stop on Shabbat, I demonstrate that I am not a compulsive, laborious, mindless force, but rather I am a human being created in the image of G- d, here on earth to do G-d's work. Rabbi David Aaron Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting G-d In and Living A Joyous Life For more of Rabbi Aaron's Sparks, click here. _____ Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080223/4fb2c866/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 24 07:07:07 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:07:07 EST Subject: [Dialogue] To inspire - "Shabbat - Rest Assured" Message-ID: Hey Betty - Glad you liked it; I've found Rabbi Aaron's teachings very, very deep and meaningful. I'll try to pass on more, from time to time. Great to "see" you again! :-) Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080224/962b3f30/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 24 07:11:09 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:11:09 EST Subject: [Dialogue] While I was looking through the Tanach... Message-ID: Hi Betty - The references are to the Philistines, who inhabited part of the coastal area, within the boundaries of Eretz Yisrael - the Land of Israel. Hope you have a fabulous week!!! Brachot and good vibes going YOUR way! :-) Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080224/66f841f6/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 24 07:12:43 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:12:43 EST Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Message-ID: Thanks Clyde! I appreciate the input, and the reference. Have a great week! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080224/7e91a77b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 24 07:15:06 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:15:06 EST Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Message-ID: Hey John - Thanks man, and that was worth both the wait, AND more then 2 cents! :-) I really appreciate all the in put, now I just have to digest it.... Hey - I just listened to Ina Gadda Devita...which I thought you might appreciate! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080224/65185a82/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Feb 24 07:17:18 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:17:18 EST Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Message-ID: Hey Dave - Thanks for sharing, yeah, I'm sure things would have been quite different. And I LOVE the idea of a time machine!!! Can I go too? I'll even practice my Aramaic, so I can fit in better; I've never quite fit in here...LOL Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080224/3c549e4e/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 24 07:12:42 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 13:12:42 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1017636425-1203859196-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-68140652-@bxe123.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Oh yeah. Brings back memories of the first blow-out party I ever went to. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:15:06 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Hey John - ? ??? Thanks man, and that was worth both the wait, AND more then 2 cents!? :-)? I really appreciate all the in put, now I just have to digest it.... ? ??? Hey - I just listened to Ina Gadda Devita...which I thought you might appreciate! ? ??? Best regards, ??? ??? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... ---------------- Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. _______________________________________________ From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 25 05:29:48 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 06:29:48 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Thoughts on Prayer Message-ID: Shalom v'Boker tov! Here's an article about prayer that I thought you might find interesting. Hope you all have a great week! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... We Need Your Prayers 19 Adar 5768, 25 February 08 05:39 by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen (IsraelNN.com) The Biblical term chesed refers to overflowing love - a love which is expressed through deeds and words. A chasid is a Biblical term for someone whose understanding of Torah leads to a loving devotion to serving the Creator and all creation, always striving to fulfill the loving Divine purpose through deeds and words, including the words of prayer. Mesilas Yesharim ? "Path of the Upright" ? is a classical work on personal spiritual growth written by Rabbi Moshe Chayim Luzatto, a leading sage of the 18th century. In several chapters of this work, he discusses how a chasid develops the art of loving. In chapter 19, he reminds us that the love of a chasid also includes a love for the People of Israel, and through this love, the chasid feels the pain and suffering of our exile. Rabbi Luzzato describes how the chasidim of our people, through their love of the Blessed One and Israel, pray for the redemption of Jerusalem and for the restoration of the honor of Heaven. These chasidim and their loving prayers are to serve as models for us; however, as Rabbi Luzzato points out, someone may ask the following question: ?Who am I and what am I worth that I should pray about the exile and about Jerusalem? Will the exiles be gathered in and will salvation sprout forth because of my prayer?? Rabbi Luzatto explains that the answer to this question about the value of one ?s prayer can be found in the following teaching from the Talmud: Each one should say, ?For My sake the world was created.? (Sanhedrin 37a) This teaching means that each person should feel that the world was created for the sake of his or her unique contribution. Rabbi Luzatto is revealing that one?s contribution includes one?s prayers. Each person should therefore recognize that his or her prayers for redemption are needed and appreciated, as Rabbi Luzatto writes, ?It is the Blessed One? s pleasure that His children desire and pray for this. And though their desire may not be fulfilled because the proper time has not yet arrived or for some other reason, they will have done their part and the Holy One, Blessed be He, rejoices in it.? In profound and mysterious ways, which we may not fully understand, each of our prayers serves the cosmic purpose; thus, each of us can say, ?For the sake of my prayers, the world was created.? Yes, your prayers for the redemption are needed, and through the combined spiritual power of all of our prayers, together with the spiritual power of our own renewal, we can merit to experience the universal age of enlightenment and shalom, when ?Torah will go forth from Zion and the Word of HaShem from Jerusalem.? (Isaiah 2:3) Related Teachings 1. Regarding our responsibility to pray for Jerusalem, Rabbi Luzzato writes: ? We cannot exempt ourselves because of our inadequate strength. For in relation to all such things we learned, ?The work is not yours to complete, but you are not free to abstain from it? (Pirkei Avos 2:16).? In other words, we are to do what we can and pray what we can, for this effort is precious to our Creator. 2. Regarding altruistic prayer, Rabbi Aharon Kotler, a leading sage of the 20th century, wrote: ?Great is the obligation upon each and every person to pray for compassion upon the community and the individual, as it is explained in the Talmud, Tractate Brochos 12b: 'Whoever is able to pray for compassion upon his fellow and does not pray, is called a sinner, as it says (citing the words of the Prophet Samuel): "Far be it from me to sin against HaShem by refraining from praying on your behalf"? (1 Samuel 12:23).? _http://www.israelnationalnews.com/_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080225/e20d47e0/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 25 05:54:24 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 06:54:24 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Quotes for 19 Adar I, 5768 Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, I came across these two quotes from my teacher of blessed memory, Rav Meir Kahane, HY"D (HaShem Yikom Damo - May G-d avenge his blood). Both are straight forward, but thought provoking, as well: "Let us not suffer from a national amnesia that causes us to forget who and what we are." Rav _Meir Kahane_ (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/meirkahane268202.html) "Life is essentially a question of values." Rav _Meir Kahane_ (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/meirkahane268183.html) I'd be interested to hear if anyone has any reactions to them... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080225/ad8a2b61/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 25 06:45:37 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 07:45:37 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "The Kosovo Precedent" Message-ID: The Kosovo Precedent by Arieh Eldad, Ma?ariv February 22, 2008 The Moslem Republic of Kosovo declared its independence this week. The United States and several European countries have already recognized it. News reports that the Israeli Foreign Ministry was urging swift Israeli recognition were denied, and reporters were told that Israel does not want to be the first to jump, but once the list of countries recognizing Kosovo is longer, Israel will be one of them. If Israel does recognize Kosovo, this will certainly be the result of a decision made by the prime minister and foreign minister. Such a decision will be indubitable proof of the foolishness and malignant shortsightedness from which they suffer. If their willingness to establish an Arab terrorist state in the heart of our own country can be explained by their having internalized the Peace Now ideology concerning what they call the ?occupation? and the demographic problem ­ there can be no such explanation for Israel?s giving support to Islamic imperialism in Europe. The fear of the spread of Islam is expressed today in increasing support for conservative parties in Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, and Germany. These are not extreme right or neo-Nazi parties but rather mainstream conservative parties. They view Israel as a frontline fortress of Western culture facing jihad, and they fear that this fortress may fall under Arab pressure and because of the weakness of Israel?s leaders. Such Europeans fear the separatist trends among millions of Moslem immigrants in Western Europe, the demands to apply Islamic Sharia law in those countries, and the ideological and financial support the immigrants are getting from Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Al Quaida. They are worriedly counting the thousands of mosques being built in Western Europe, and they are made anxious by their understanding of how Moslems have exploited Europeans? collective guilt feelings over the destruction of the Jews to win surrender to Moslem demands for collective rights, free immigration, and multi-culturalism ­ all so that the Europeans will not be accused of racism. Millions of Moslem immigrants in Europe supported by billions of Saudi dollars are garnering more and more ?rights? and influence. Islamic proliferation in Europe took in a new country this week. The Moslem minority in Serbia in the Kosovo region bordering the Islamic state of Albania declared its independence. Serbia is a sovereign country, a member of the United Nations, with an ethnic minority. Based on the standards being used for Kosovian independence, the Basques should now be able to set up an independent state in Spain. Such states may also be established in Russia, Slovakia, Greece, and Cyprus. The flag of Kosovo is that of Islamic proliferation and a source of serious anxiety to Europe. Those European countries recognizing Kosovo are doing so under economic pressure from oil-rich Arab countries, the markets of Islamic countries, and internal pressure by millions of Moslem voters in Europe. Expressing complete political blindness towards the nature of the conflict between Moslems and the rest of the world, Olmert and Tzippi Livni are convinced that establishing an Arab state in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza is in Israel?s political interests. Only someone who doesn?t understand that the conflict has nothing to do with a particular boundary can think that drawing such a boundary line along the 1967 borders will solve anything. Only someone who doesn?t understand what the Moslems in Europe want can think that the establishment of an independent Kosovo will resolve the conflict in the Balkans. If Israel joins in recognizing Kosovo, there will be no political, legal, or moral claim it can make to oppose establishing an Arab state in the Galilee and Northern Negev. For what is the difference? An ethnic minority with territorial contiguity to neighboring enemy states demands, following a bloody war, to tear pieces from a sovereign country, and proclaim its independence. This is or will be exactly the demand of the Arabs after the first stage in the ?strategy of stages,? the establishment of an independent Palestinian state is, Heaven forbid, attained. And we cannot forget that Arabs and the haters of Israel in Europe portray Israel in colors no less cruel than those used to portray the Serbs, and accusations of genocide are thrown at us just as they were thrown at them. When the day comes when the Arabs in the Galilee declare independence, Israel will have no way to oppose it, assuming it today recognizes a country formed on exactly the same basis. I have heard commentators explaining that neither we nor Europe should fear Kosovo because the Kosovians are ?moderate Moslems.? It was from these moderate Moslems that Haj Amin el-Husseini gathered tens of thousands of volunteers for the 13th SS Division (?Handschar?) and 21st SS Division (?Skanderbeg?). On them he built his dream of marching with Hitler?s armies into Palestine and destroying the Jews of Eretz Israel. Today Israel, together with its European partners, must present a solid front to stop the spread of Islam in Europe, for as long as the Moslem strength there increases, the tendency of European countries to prefer the Arabs over Israel will also increase. ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 _mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org _ (mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org) _http://www.womeningreen.org_ (http://www.womeningreen.org) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080225/5067460a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 25 06:51:14 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 07:51:14 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Purim Resources Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Normally I would wait to send out these Purim resources, but since I will be in Israel, G-d willing at that time, I thought I'd send them now. I can't vouch for all the sites, but there's bound to be tons of useful info, and lots of fun stuff for kids, most importantly. Well in advance - have a GREAT Purim!! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... Hi Everyone! Purim, the fun-filled Jewish holiday, falls on the 14th of the Hebrew month of Adar. This year Purim begins Thursday night March 20, 2008. (In Jerusalem it is celebrated on Sunday, March 23.) The J Site - Jewish Education and Entertainment _http://www.j.http:_ (http://www.j.co.il/) has several entertaining features for Purim: Purim Trivia Why do people eat poppy seeds on Purim ? >From what tribe was Mordecai ? Why was Haman angry at Mordechai ? Who was queen of Persia before Esther ? Esther had another name, what was it ? How many times is Haman's name mentioned in the megillah ? What did the king do when he couldn't sleep ? What does the word "Esther" mean ? How many advisors did king Achashverosh have ? The above questions are examples from the multiple choice Flash quiz. There are two levels of questions, two timer settings. Both kids and adults will find it enjoyable. Purim Clipart Whether you need a picture to attach to your "Mishloach Manot", a picture for your child's class project, a graphic for your synagogue, Hillel or JCC Purim announcement, the Jewish Clipart Database has the pictures for you. You can copy, save and print the graphics in three different sizes. Additional Purim resources and games on the J site include: Purim Word Search Game My Jewish Coloring Book - Purim Pictures Hebrew Hangman - Purim Hebrew Purim Songs with Vowels (Nikud) The J site has something for everyone, but if that is not enough, there are now 88 Purim links on my holiday hotsites. The sites have everything ranging from laws and customs to games and recipes. Site languages include English, Hebrew, Russian, Spanish, French, Portugese and German. All 88 links have been reviewed / checked over the past week. The address is: _http://www.jr.http://www.jr.http://wwhtt_ (http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-hdaypu.htm) and...... This year I added a new Purim section to my YouTube Video sections. I gathered 39 cool Purim videos on YouTube ranging from funny songs, plays, parades and Purim Shpiel. Enjoy the videos at: _http://www.jr.http://www.jrhttp://www.jrhtt_ (http://www.jr.co.il/videos/purim-videos.htm) Please forward this message to relatives and friends, so they may benefit from these holiday resources. An early Happy Purim! Jacob **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080225/edd23739/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Feb 25 09:10:51 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:10:51 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? Message-ID: <004101c877c0$9ff21dd0$0200a8c0@marvin> A few thoughts on James, Peter and Paul and the direction of the church. The Greek word that English versions of the Bible translate as church is ekklesia, which comes from the Greek word kaleo ("I call" or I summon"). In secular literature, the word ekklesia referred to any assembly of people, but in the New testament the word has a more specialized meaning. Secular literature might use the word ekklesia to denote a riot, a political rally, an orgy, or a gathering for any other purpose. (The Bible Almanac, p.535) Bible translators render the word ekklesia as Church instead of the more general term assembly or gathering because of their theological understanding, don't you think? The early Christians identified themselves with Israel, God's chosen people. They believed that Jesus' coming and ministry fulfilled God promise's to the patriarchs(Matt.2:6, Luk 1:68, Acts 5:31) and they held that God had established a new covenant with Jesus' followers(2Cor 3:6, Heb 7:22, 9:15). God they held, had established His new Israel on the basis of personal salvation, rather than family descent. His church was a spiritual nation that transcended all cultural and national heritages. Anyone who placed his faith in God's new covenant by surrendering his life to Christ became Abraham's spiritual descendant and as such a part of the "new Israel" (Matt 8:11, Luk 13:28-30, Rom 4: 9-25, 11, Gal 3-4, Heb 11-12.(The bible Almanac, P.542) My question.. Who are the one's being "called or summoned" ? The only reason gentiles have salvation is because of Israel. Did not Jesus say that salvation is of the Jews? Can gentiles have salvation apart from Israel(Jews)? If the Jewish people ceased to exist on the face of the earth, would gentiles still have salvation? Interesting questions! I am almost of the opinion that, "the sect of the Nazarenes" was hijacked by the Gentile/ Hellenized pagan Idolaters' of the first, second, third centuries. Notice the second paragraph I quoted, "God they held, had established His new Israel on the basis of personal salvation, rather than family descent." From my understanding it has always been based on faith and personal belief (we will do it and we will hear it). Therefore, it has always been and always will be based on family descent and making the personal choice to follow God. I remember years ago, a Rabbi said that, Israel(Jews) were born with salvation and can loose it, Gentiles were born with out it, but can gain it. The writer then goes on to say, "His church was a spiritual nation that transcended all cultural and national heritages. I can believe that this "assembly of people will transcend all cultural and national heritages", but I don't think that does away with the Nation of Israel, it just says that you can take on a relationship with this people and their God. As Ruth did, Rth 1:14 And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother-in-law; but Ruth cleaved unto her. Rth 1:15 And she said, Behold, thy sister-in-law is gone back unto her people, and unto her gods: return thou after thy sister-in-law. Rth 1:16 And Ruth said, Entreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God: The writer then proceeds to inform us that, "Anyone who placed his faith in God's new covenant by surrendering his life to Christ became Abraham's spiritual descendant and as such a part of the "new Israel" (Matt 8:11, Luk 13:28-30, Rom 4: 9-25. This has got to be the place were the "Hijack" took place. A total misunderstanding of the New Covenant ideal as expressed by the prophets. Judaism of the First century stood in opposition to the religions of the nations round about them. Was Judaism influenced negatively by the false religions, I think so.. But not to the extinct to destroy them, and for God to start again with "plan B". The early movement of the Nazarene Sect, morphed into what later became Christianity because Judaism lost control or influence over the influx of gentiles coming in. Simply put they were over run by the pagan religions. I think, the early movement was to the lost gentiles, who were in reality of the "Lost tribes of Israel". Since, no one could show their card at the door showing that they were of the lost tribes, then the door was opened to all gentiles and they would then let God sort them out. If what I purpose is correct then the early movement was to the lost tribes, but if gentiles(not of the lost tribes) wanted to follow the God of Israel they could, just as Ruth did. This created the influx that overran the early ekklesia. James and Peter and Paul could not have stopped what had started, it was out of their control. Marvin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080225/28c6dfa2/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 25 11:39:44 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 12:39:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Psalm for 19 Adar I 5768 Message-ID: <8CA45EC8AFB5DF0-11D4-434@webmail-db09.sysops.aol.com> Shalom L'Kulchem, (from the Lekarev Report) Hashem brings the counsel of the nations to naught;? He makes the thoughts of the peoples to be of no effect. The counsel of Hashem stands for ever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations. ? Psalm 33:10-11 ?????? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080225/a0058d6f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Feb 25 16:26:18 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:26:18 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? In-Reply-To: <004101c877c0$9ff21dd0$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <004101c877c0$9ff21dd0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <8CA46149371FF41-590-522@webmail-db09.sysops.aol.com> Hi Marvin - ?? Hmmm...lots to think about here - thanks for sharing it.? Now all I have to do is digest it all!? :-)? You make a number of very interesting points, and I'll need to spend some time with it - but I really appreciate your sending it.? Thanks again! ?? Best regards,????????? ???????? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... -----Original Message----- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:10 am Subject: [Dialogue] James the Just/Peter/Paul - the same approaches? A few thoughts on James, Peter and Paul and the direction of the church. ? ? The Greek word that English versions of the Bible translate as church is ekklesia, which comes from the Greek word kaleo (?I call? or I summon?). In secular literature, the word ekklesia referred to any assembly of people, but in the New testament the word has a more? specialized meaning. Secular literature might use the word ekklesia to denote a riot, a political rally, an orgy, or a gathering for any other purpose. (The Bible Almanac, p.535) ? Bible translators render the word ekklesia as Church instead of the more general term ???assembly or gathering because of their theological understanding, don?t you think? ? The early Christians identified themselves with Israel, God?s chosen people. They believed that Jesus? coming and ministry fulfilled God promise?s to the patriarchs(Matt.2:6, Luk 1:68, Acts 5:31)? and they held that God had established a new covenant with Jesus? followers(2Cor 3:6, Heb 7:22, 9:15).? God they held, had established His new Israel on the basis of personal salvation, rather than family descent. His church was a spiritual nation that transcended all cultural and national heritages. Anyone who placed his faith in God?s new covenant by surrendering his life to Christ became Abraham?s spiritual descendant and as such a part of the ?new Israel? (Matt 8:11, Luk 13:28-30, Rom 4: 9-25, 11, Gal 3-4, Heb 11-12.(The bible Almanac, P.542) ? My question?.? Who are the one?s being ??called or summoned? ??? The only reason gentiles have salvation is because of Israel.? Did not Jesus say that salvation is of the Jews??? Can gentiles have salvation apart from Israel(Jews)?? If the Jewish people ceased to exist on the face of the earth, would gentiles still have salvation??? Interesting questions! ? I am almost of the opinion that, ?the sect of the Nazarenes? ??was hijacked by the Gentile/ Hellenized pagan Idolaters?? of the first, second, third centuries.?? Notice the second paragraph I quoted, ?God they held, had established His new Israel on the basis of personal salvation, rather than family descent.??? From my understanding it has always been based on faith and personal belief (we will do it and we will hear it).? Therefore, it has always been and always will be based on family descent and making the personal choice to follow God.? I remember years ago, ?a Rabbi ?said that, Israel(Jews) were born with salvation and can loose it, Gentiles were born with out it, ?but can gain it. The writer then goes on to say, ??His church was a spiritual nation that transcended all cultural and national heritages. ???I can believe that this ?assembly of people will transcend all cultural and national heritages?, but I don?t think that does away with the Nation of Israel, it just? says that you can take on a relationship with this? people and their God. As Ruth did,? Rth 1:14? And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother-in-law; but Ruth cleaved unto her. Rth 1:15? And she said, Behold, thy sister-in-law is gone back unto her people, and unto her gods: return thou after thy sister-in-law. Rth 1:16? And Ruth said, Entreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God: ? ?? The writer then proceeds to inform us that, ?Anyone who placed his faith in God?s new covenant by surrendering his life to Christ became Abraham?s spiritual descendant and as such a part of the ?new Israel? (Matt 8:11, Luk 13:28-30, Rom 4: 9-25.? This has got to be the place were the ?Hijack? took place.? A total misunderstanding of the New Covenant ideal as expressed by the prophets.???? ? Judaism of the First century stood in opposition to the religions of the nations round about them.? Was Judaism influenced negatively by the false religions, I think so?.? But not to the extinct to destroy them, ?and for God to start again with ?plan B?.?? ??The early movement of the Nazarene Sect,? morphed into what later became Christianity because Judaism lost control or influence over the influx of gentiles coming in.? Simply put they were over run by the pagan religions. ???I think, the early movement was to the lost gentiles, ?who were in reality of the ?Lost tribes of Israel?.? Since, no one could show ?their card at the door showing that they were of the lost tribes, then the door was opened to all gentiles and they would then let God sort them out.?? If what I purpose is correct then the early movement was to the lost tribes, but if gentiles(not of the lost tribes) wanted to follow the God of Israel they could, just as Ruth did.?? This created the influx that overran the early ekklesia.? James and Peter and Paul could not have stopped what had started, it was out of their control.?? ? ? Marvin ? _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080225/c863c4ed/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Feb 26 06:35:19 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:35:19 EST Subject: [Dialogue] 'What really happened in the Middle East' Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim - This is well worth seeing, and spreading around to everyone you know - _Click here: What Really Happened In The Middle East - Terrorism Awareness Project_ (http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080226/8cbce520/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Feb 26 14:42:53 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:42:53 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] While reading the Prophet Micah Message-ID: <8CA46CF4B5E455E-1298-877@MBLK-M13.sysops.aol.com> Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, ??? I was just taking a break (at work) and began browsing through the Tanach, and started studying the Prophet Micah.? Take a look at the following verses that my eyes roamed over: "But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the L-rd shall be established on top of the mountain, and it shall be exalted above the hills;? and peoples shall stream towards it.? And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the L-rd, and to the house of the G-d of Ya'aqov;? and he will teach us his ways and we will walk in his paths: for Tora shall go forth from Ziyon, and the word of the L-rd from Yerushalayim." ?????????????????????????????????????????? Micah 4:1-2 and.... "...though thou art little among the thousands of Yehuda, yet out of thee shall he come forth to me that is to be the ruler in Yisra'el; and his goings out are from ancient time, from days of old.? Therefore will he give them up, until the time when she who travails has brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return to the children of Yisra'l.? And he shall stand and feed his flock in the strength of the L-rd, in the majesty of the name of the L-rd his G-d." ??????????????????????????????????????????Micah 5: 1-3 ?????? May it be so, and in OUR time... ??????????????? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080226/38ecfbf4/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Feb 24 00:05:27 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 00:05:27 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: TNL FEB 26TH! Message-ID: <015f01c876ab$40ec6ae0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Okay all, this will be my last email of the evening. Sorry to have monopolized the list this evening! I am just so happy to be reading all the emails after being away for a week or more. Since Hanoch is so familiar with Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight and has forwarded us some of his "Sparks" recently, I thought some of you might like to check out this show. It will air in Israel on Tuesday, and I think will be available on the internet using the link provided below on Thursday. Hope all had a good Shabbat today and will enjoy a good week! Love and Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: Rachel Gluck [mailto:gluck.rachel at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Rachel at thelandofisrael.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:58 AM To: Rachel at thelandofisrael.com Subject: TNL FEB 26TH! Shalom TNL audience members! Episode #5 of Tuesday Night Live is now posted on www.thelandofisrael.com and www.israelnationaltv.com- enjoy! Next week's show is going to be amazing! "Discovering the inner essence of Judaism" WORLD RENOWNED SPECIAL GUEST: RABBI DAVID AARON! (I've heard him speak several times- wow!) *Founder and Dean of the Isralight Institute in the Old City *Bestselling author of "Endless Light," "Seeing G-d," "The Secret Life of G-d," "Inviting G-d in," and "Living a Joyous Life" SPECIAL MUSICAL GUEST: CHAIM DOVID!-short concert to follow show! **We're also going to have a drop box for new/good condition games and toys for Sderot children, which will be delivered to them in Mishloach Manot, in a joint project with the OU and The Great Synagogue called "Chessed United." ** Please tell all your friends and family to come join the show next week, and please remember to bring games and/or toys if you can! Email me back with your full name, phone #, and # of seats needed for the show. My favorite part of the week is getting all your emails with reservations :-) SEND THIS TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS AND HELP SPREAD THE WORD, SHAVUA TOV AND SEE YOU NEXT TUESDAY EVENING! **I have a couple vendor tables available for the show as well, let me know if you'd like to be a TNL vendor next week** Doors Open: 6:45 PM Show Starts: 8:00 Sharp Hechal Shlomo, 58 King George, next to the Great Synagogue http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=10767559492 Rachel Gluck Ohr Olam Director of Programming www.thelandofisrael.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080224/fcb93946/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 601181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080224/fcb93946/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 605587 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080224/fcb93946/attachment-0001.jpe From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sun Feb 24 12:22:35 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 13:22:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT ACTION ALERT-REQUESTING SHAS PARTY RESIGNATION Message-ID: test_summary Hopefully this will help if they do it???? Dick L Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 2:39 AM Subject: URGENT ACTION ALERT-REQUESTING SHAS PARTY RESIGNATION Editor's Note: URGENT ACTION ALERT Requesting Shas Party Resignation The future of Israel rests in the hands of only a few members of the Knesset. We applaud MK Netanyahu's statement asking Shas to resign from the Olmert government. (Please see the article below for details.) Join Netanyahu in his call for Shas to make this historic decision and prevent the dismemberment of Israel. Please read the sample letter below. It is a letter that you can send with one click "as is," or you may edit the text as you see fit. This Urgent Action Alert will go to MK Eliyahu Yishai and all members of the Shas Party with copies to Prime Minister Olmert, Vice Prime Minister Haim Ramon, MK Rabbi Benyamin Elon, MK Dr. Arieh Eldad, MK Benjamin Netanyahu, MK Avigdor Liberman, Foreign Affairs Minister Tzipi Livni, President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. Send this Urgent Call to Action Dear MK Yishai and All Members of the Shas Party, As we read the shenanigans of Israel's "negotiating team," friends of Israel in the US are shaking our heads in disbelief while the dismemberment of Israel is now under way. US friends cannot stand silently by watching this travesty take place. We call upon the Shas party to save Jerusalem and save Israel from its own folly by resigning from the Olmert government, thus interrupting this impending disaster. What other country is being asked to participate in its own demise by submitting to those who ignore history and falsely lay claim to Israel's God-given land? Should not the "negotiating team" demand recognition of Israel as a Jewish state? Should they not mention the need for Jews and Christians to live freely (now mostly denied) in any kind of Arab state, particularly a proposed Palestinian state? Should they not stand up for the rights of nearly a million Jewish refugees expelled from Arab countries in 1948? Should they not state and restate that Jerusalem was, is and should remain the eternal united capital of the Jewish people? What other country would even consider sharing its rightful capital with another nation, particularly a hostile one openly calling for its destruction? The "secret negotiations" are almost too painful to consider by those who truly love Israel. Israel now thrives on 22 percent of the land given to it by the British Mandate. 78 percent was already given to Jordan, whose population is 70 percent Palestinian. Now Israel is being forced to divide that 22 percent. We applaud Likud Leader Netanyahu's statement asking Shas to resign from the Olmert government. We urgently join him in his call for Shas to make this historic decision and prevent this impending catastrophe. People of Israel WAKE UP! The people of the Diaspora are waiting to help you. We cannot again go like lambs to the slaughter. Signed, Send this Urgent Call to Action -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contents: 1.. Netanyahu: If it looks like a duck ... Olmert will divide Jerusalem - Opposition leader accuses PM of duplicity in talks, Jerusalem Post, Sheera Claire Frenkel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Netanyahu: If it looks like a duck ... Olmert will divide Jerusalem - Opposition leader accuses PM of duplicity in talks Sheera Claire Frenkel Jerusalem Post, February 21, 2008 The Olmert government is taking steps to divide the capital, opposition leader Binyamin Netanyahu said on Wednesday, and Shas must immediately leave the coalition to avoid contributing to the "destruction of Jerusalem." "This weak government is actively preparing to give away Jerusalem," Netanyahu told the fifth annual Jerusalem Conference in the capital. "It is attempting to deny and whitewash the issue, but we know what is truly happening." Netanyahu accused Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of duplicity, saying that despite claims to the contrary, core issues, including Jerusalem, were being discussed in Palestinian-Israeli negotiations. "The prime minister said that we are not talking about Jerusalem, and that we are leaving it until last. But I say, if it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, then they are carving up Jerusalem," Netanyahu said. Click here for the complete article, or copy and paste this link into your web browser: http://www.israelunitycoalition.org/news/article.php?id=2385 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUPPORTING ISRAEL FOR 15 YEARS!!! We hope you find this newsletter informative and useful. Please support Today's News Summaries, our URGENT ACTION ALERTS, and other projects with your tax-deductible donation. Click here to donate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- UCI's website and emails are written to current web standards according to the W3C. If your browser or email client is not standards-compliant, you can go here for one that is. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080224/28321c98/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Feb 26 19:03:01 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:03:01 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] URGENT ACTION ALERT-REQUESTING SHAS PARTY RESIGNATION In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I went to their website and sent it, Dick. Thank you! From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.comTo: ;Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 13:22:35 -0500CC: youngatheart at maine.rr.com; pugs8 at charter.net; dreamgirl80 at hotmail.com; RamonMiner1 at aol.com; stellad1958 at hotmail.com; john.bay at verizon.net; verrnunn at yahoo.com; ccestano7370 at msn.com; brat_gal24 at hotmail.com; whittier at gwi.net; kenpathu at yahoo.com; acolpitts at maine.rr.com; pollockpp at yahoo.com; Edseadog at aol.com; mitch at maine.rr.com; johnmacd at securespeed.us; RSCAMMON1 at maine.rr.com; DAWSON1865 at aol.com; khmer at zz.com; cwrej at tdstelme.netSubject: [Dialogue] URGENT ACTION ALERT-REQUESTING SHAS PARTY RESIGNATION Hopefully this will help if they do it???? Dick L Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 2:39 AM Subject: URGENT ACTION ALERT-REQUESTING SHAS PARTY RESIGNATION Editor's Note: URGENT ACTION ALERT Requesting Shas Party ResignationThe future of Israel rests in the hands of only a few members of the Knesset. We applaud MK Netanyahu's statement asking Shas to resign from the Olmert government. (Please see the article below for details.) Join Netanyahu in his call for Shas to make this historic decision and prevent the dismemberment of Israel.Please read the sample letter below. It is a letter that you can send with one click "as is," or you may edit the text as you see fit. This Urgent Action Alert will go to MK Eliyahu Yishai and all members of the Shas Party with copies to Prime Minister Olmert, Vice Prime Minister Haim Ramon, MK Rabbi Benyamin Elon, MK Dr. Arieh Eldad, MK Benjamin Netanyahu, MK Avigdor Liberman, Foreign Affairs Minister Tzipi Livni, President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. Send this Urgent Call to Action Dear MK Yishai and All Members of the Shas Party,As we read the shenanigans of Israel's "negotiating team," friends of Israel in the US are shaking our heads in disbelief while the dismemberment of Israel is now under way.US friends cannot stand silently by watching this travesty take place. We call upon the Shas party to save Jerusalem and save Israel from its own folly by resigning from the Olmert government, thus interrupting this impending disaster.What other country is being asked to participate in its own demise by submitting to those who ignore history and falsely lay claim to Israel's God-given land? Should not the "negotiating team" demand recognition of Israel as a Jewish state? Should they not mention the need for Jews and Christians to live freely (now mostly denied) in any kind of Arab state, particularly a proposed Palestinian state? Should they not stand up for the rights of nearly a million Jewish refugees expelled from Arab countries in 1948? Should they not state and restate that Jerusalem was, is and should remain the eternal united capital of the Jewish people? What other country would even consider sharing its rightful capital with another nation, particularly a hostile one openly calling for its destruction?The "secret negotiations" are almost too painful to consider by those who truly love Israel. Israel now thrives on 22 percent of the land given to it by the British Mandate. 78 percent was already given to Jordan, whose population is 70 percent Palestinian. Now Israel is being forced to divide that 22 percent. We applaud Likud Leader Netanyahu's statement asking Shas to resign from the Olmert government. We urgently join him in his call for Shas to make this historic decision and prevent this impending catastrophe.People of Israel WAKE UP! The people of the Diaspora are waiting to help you. We cannot again go like lambs to the slaughter.Signed, Send this Urgent Call to Action Contents: Netanyahu: If it looks like a duck ... Olmert will divide Jerusalem - Opposition leader accuses PM of duplicity in talks, Jerusalem Post, Sheera Claire Frenkel Netanyahu: If it looks like a duck ... Olmert will divide Jerusalem - Opposition leader accuses PM of duplicity in talksSheera Claire FrenkelJerusalem Post, February 21, 2008 The Olmert government is taking steps to divide the capital, opposition leader Binyamin Netanyahu said on Wednesday, and Shas must immediately leave the coalition to avoid contributing to the "destruction of Jerusalem.""This weak government is actively preparing to give away Jerusalem," Netanyahu told the fifth annual Jerusalem Conference in the capital. "It is attempting to deny and whitewash the issue, but we know what is truly happening."Netanyahu accused Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of duplicity, saying that despite claims to the contrary, core issues, including Jerusalem, were being discussed in Palestinian-Israeli negotiations."The prime minister said that we are not talking about Jerusalem, and that we are leaving it until last. But I say, if it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, then they are carving up Jerusalem," Netanyahu said. Click here for the complete article, or copy and paste this link into your web browser:http://www.israelunitycoalition.org/news/article.php?id=2385 SUPPORTING ISRAEL FOR 15 YEARS!!! We hope you find this newsletter informative and useful. Please support Today's News Summaries, our URGENT ACTION ALERTS, and other projects with your tax-deductible donation.Click here to donate UCI's website and emails are written to current web standards according to the W3C. If your browser or email client is not standards-compliant, you can go here for one that is. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080226/02ab2d2d/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Feb 26 19:27:37 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:27:37 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] VFI ~ Volunteers For Israel In-Reply-To: <119506.91759.qm@web32505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <119506.91759.qm@web32505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just in case any on this list may be interested in volunteering to serve on a base in Israel, here is a little clip about it. http://www.vfi-usa.org/videos.html Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080226/541e25a9/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 27 07:01:17 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 08:01:17 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A Lead on the Ark of the Covenant Message-ID: Boker tov Chaverim Yikarim, Below is a link to a story about Tudor Parfitt's new book - where he traces the Aron HaBrit (the Ark of the Covenant) to Africa...I just bought the book last evening, so I can't comment yet (ha!), but I thought you mind find this article of interest. _Click here: A Lead on the Ark of the Covenant - TIME_ (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1715337,00.html) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080227/d5db3412/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 27 07:02:57 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 08:02:57 EST Subject: [Dialogue] VFI ~ Volunteers For Israel Message-ID: Hi Pat - This is really great - thanks for passing it on! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080227/92cd3311/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 27 07:46:39 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 08:46:39 EST Subject: [Dialogue] For 21 Adar I 5768 Message-ID: Boker Tov, (From the Lekarev Report) "My soul glories in the L-rd. Let the humble hear and rejoice. Magnify the L-rd with me,and let us exalt His name together. I sought the L-rd and He answered me, and He delivered me from all my fears." Psalm 34:3-5 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080227/4c53d79e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 27 22:00:11 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:00:11 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Watch, "Send in the Jews" Message-ID: For a cute, humorous interlude - check this out below: Send in the Jews Video: Britney and Paris are turning to the toughest peeps in Hollywood for security -- the Jews. Wait, what? As TMZ TV found out, Jews in Hollywood aren't just accountants and studio execs anymore. _http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid353549946/bctid1432781813_ (http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid353549946/bctid1432781813) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080227/c00d7e74/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 27 22:08:08 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:08:08 EST Subject: [Dialogue] From the Wall Street Journal Message-ID: Shalom v'Erev Tov - This is a very interesting piece from the Opinion page of the Wall Street Journal." _Click here: Global View - WSJ.com_ (http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB120398961080492299-lMyQjAxMDI4MDIzNzkyODc5Wj.html) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080227/d01d7ae6/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Feb 27 22:11:34 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:11:34 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Read: When Jihad came to America" Message-ID: _Click here: Unity Coalition for Israel_ (http://www.israelunitycoalition.org/news/article.php?id=2392) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080227/2beb4e66/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 27 22:21:55 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:21:55 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Dr. Walter Oakley Message-ID: <022820080421.6031.47C636E1000E66D20000178F22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey y'all. The following is a link to a new website featuring Dr. Walter Oakley who has tauhgt at Rootes of Faith. There is a wealth of information on the Hebraic roots of Christianity. Check it out. http://torahfocus.com/ -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/6f8cf16e/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 27 22:27:41 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:27:41 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Joe Good. Message-ID: <022820080427.16557.47C638390009BC84000040AD22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> This Shabbat (Mar. 1), Mr. Joe Good will honor Roots of Faith with a lesson on the readings for the day. Please check out the website and listen in this Saturday. www.rootsoffaith.org -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/75f9a9d7/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 06:09:43 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:09:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Watch, "Send in the Jews" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <453813.56690.qm@web37502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Too funny, Hanoch. I needed a good laugh! YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: For a cute, humorous interlude - check this out below: Send in the Jews Video: Britney and Paris are turning to the toughest peeps in Hollywood for security -- the Jews. Wait, what? As TMZ TV found out, Jews in Hollywood aren't just accountants and studio execs anymore. http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid353549946/bctid1432781813 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... --------------------------------- Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/dbf1119e/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 06:14:23 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:14:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Good morning.... Message-ID: <775206.74544.qm@web37509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It is indeed another day that we have an opportunity to be a blessing to others. We never know when the opportunity comes along to show the lost and hurt the love of YHWH. "Blessed is the man whom You choose and cause to come near, that he may dwell in Your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple." Psalm 65:4 May each of you have a blessed day! Paul Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/3da9ac67/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 28 06:24:28 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:24:28 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Watch, "Send in the Jews" Message-ID: Glad you liked it - I thought we ALL needed a good laugh!! :-) Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/757cbb56/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 28 06:25:39 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:25:39 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Good morning.... Message-ID: Wonderful Paul - thanks!! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/4dc5a6e0/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 28 06:53:11 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:53:11 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Reality & Torah - something to think about Message-ID: Boker tov Chaverim Yikarim - I came across this quote last night, from my teacher, Rav Meir Kahane, HY"D (HaShem Yikom Damo - May G-d avenge his blood). It really caused me to think.... "There is the illusion of the world and the reality of the Torah." Rav _Meir Kahane_ (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/meirkahane268187.html) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/8e5ca57c/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 28 07:04:09 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:04:09 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Requesting your help - Tartans from Scotland Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem - Okay, I've asked some strange things on this list, but this one is among the 'best.' The link below enables you to select various Tartan patterns from Scotland, based on certain color priorities. I'm looking for a pattern that I will now adopt as MY family tartan!! :-) My daughters think it's a bit "unusual," but they're willing to 'vote', too! I've been looking primarily for those with blues and purples (it's a 2nd Temple kind of image in my head...). I wanted to invite you all (Y'all) to help me a bit, check it out and let me know your opinion of which one I should 'adopt,' okay? I wanted to ask a fun question this time - thanks in advance! _Click here: Tartans & Fabrics from Scotweb Tartan & Fabric Finder_ (http://www.tartanstore.net/tartan?id=GU3IYnkd) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/6b3e52fa/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Thu Feb 28 07:58:53 2008 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:58:53 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Requesting your help - Tartans from Scotland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91BC02F28661455CAB1C9CC28D57D73F@sherryPC> Hi Hanoch, I checked out the Tartans and I really like the one named "Spirit of Scotland". Are you going to start wearing a kilt? Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:04 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Requesting your help - Tartans from Scotland Shalom L'Kulchem - Okay, I've asked some strange things on this list, but this one is among the 'best.' The link below enables you to select various Tartan patterns from Scotland, based on certain color priorities. I'm looking for a pattern that I will now adopt as MY family tartan!! :-) My daughters think it's a bit "unusual," but they're willing to 'vote', too! I've been looking primarily for those with blues and purples (it's a 2nd Temple kind of image in my head...). I wanted to invite you all (Y'all) to help me a bit, check it out and let me know your opinion of which one I should 'adopt,' okay? I wanted to ask a fun question this time - thanks in advance! Click here: Tartans & Fabrics from Scotweb Tartan & Fabric Finder Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1301 - Release Date: 2/27/2008 8:35 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/68106d00/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 28 18:12:10 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:12:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Requesting your help - Tartans from Scotland In-Reply-To: <91BC02F28661455CAB1C9CC28D57D73F@sherryPC> References: <91BC02F28661455CAB1C9CC28D57D73F@sherryPC> Message-ID: <8CA487EDBE2C4AA-1528-C5E@FWM-M36.sysops.aol.com> Hey Sherry - ??? VERY nice selection, I really like it; so right now it's our two opinions - others haven't weighed in quite yet. :-) Me wearing a kilt?? Well, with the wind chill making it feel like 4 degrees....umm...not any time soon!? LOL ?????I was thinking of something a BIT less radical...but we'll see...maybe I would wear a kilt, who knows?? My neighbors seem to think I'm a bit 'odd,' so what have I got to lose???Thanks very much for your input!? Maybe a kilt in Charlotte in April..hmm...got to think a bit more about THAT one!? Have a great evening! ??? Best regards,????????? ????? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... ? -----Original Message----- From: sherry cole To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 8:58 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Requesting your help - Tartans from Scotland Hi Hanoch, ??? I checked out the Tartans and I really like the one named "Spirit of Scotland". Are you going to start wearing a kilt? Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:04 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Requesting your help - Tartans from Scotland Shalom L'Kulchem - ? ??? Okay, I've asked some strange things on this list, but this one is among the 'best.'? The link below enables you to select various Tartan patterns from Scotland, based on certain color priorities.? I'm looking for a pattern that I will now adopt as MY family tartan!!? :-)? My daughters think it's a bit "unusual," but they're willing?to 'vote', too!? I've been looking primarily for those with blues and purples (it's a 2nd Temple kind of image in my head...).? I wanted to invite you all (Y'all) to help me a bit, check it out and let me know your opinion of which one I should 'adopt,' okay?? I wanted to ask a fun question this time - thanks in advance! ? Click here: Tartans & Fabrics from Scotweb Tartan & Fabric Finder ? ????? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1301 - Release Date: 2/27/2008 8:35 AM _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/a82647a0/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 28 21:28:38 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:28:38 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Tudpr Parfitt on the History Channel Message-ID: Shalom v'Laila tov, For those of you with the History channel this might be interesting. His book is fun so far, not agreeing with his conclusions, but it is written in an entertaining manner. 8pm Sunday 2nd March documentary based on Tudor Parfitt's new book THE LOST ARK OF THE COVENANT The existence and location of the Ark of the Covenant has remained one of the most enduring mysteries in archaeology. Professor Tudor Parfitt from London's School of Oriental and African Studies will reveal where he believes the Ark is. Parfitt is well-known for discovering that the Lemba tribe in Zimbabwe is one of the lost tribes of Israel. Follow this global quest-detective as he decodes ancient texts and pieces together clues. Ultimately he builds a picture of what he thinks the Ark looks like and where it is. The journey takes viewers through Israelite wars, Philistine shrines, Solomon's Temple and Africa to the final, critical clue which led Parfitt to its current location. Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/eb1890b9/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Feb 28 21:32:38 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:32:38 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Tudpr Parfitt on the History Channel Message-ID: It's TUDOR Parfitt...sorry Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/4b03d8c9/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] Tudpr Parfitt on the History Channel Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:28:38 EST Size: 7897 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080228/4b03d8c9/attachment.mht From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 29 09:03:44 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:03:44 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Requesting your help - Tartans from Scotland Message-ID: <022920081503.11903.47C81EC60002EF0500002E7F22243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I like the Robinson Tartans -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Shalom L'Kulchem - Okay, I've asked some strange things on this list, but this one is among the 'best.' The link below enables you to select various Tartan patterns from Scotland, based on certain color priorities. I'm looking for a pattern that I will now adopt as MY family tartan!! :-) My daughters think it's a bit "unusual," but they're willing to 'vote', too! I've been looking primarily for those with blues and purples (it's a 2nd Temple kind of image in my head...). I wanted to invite you all (Y'all) to help me a bit, check it out and let me know your opinion of which one I should 'adopt,' okay? I wanted to ask a fun question this time - thanks in advance! Click here: Tartans & Fabrics from Scotweb Tartan & Fabric Finder Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080229/5f488825/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 29 14:19:35 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:19:35 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Article, "Iran's Grand Game of Strategy" Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, Below is the link to a very important article written by Caroline Glick. Actually, everything that I have read of hers has been profound - so make sure to check it out, and pass it along... _Click here: Caroline Glick_ (http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2008/02/irans_game_of_grand_strategy.asp) Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080229/d63b90c7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 29 14:25:26 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:25:26 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Requesting your help - Tartans from Scotland Message-ID: Hey John - Hmm, ANOTHER good choice! This is not going to be easy for me, that's for sure. You know, I never realized that starting up a "clan," involved so many tough choices. I wonder if the original Scottish clans had this much difficulty deciding on a Tartan pattern, or hey - maybe their wives picked it out for them!! :-) John, one thing though - as I mentioned to Sherry yesterday, I'm not sure about the whole Kilt thing. Here in NYC it could lead to questions about my umm, masculinity...Could you picture me going through Brooklyn on the 'F' or 'B' train, wearing a Kilt? LOL What an image, huh?!?! Shabbat Shalom pal! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080229/358cab9a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Feb 29 14:58:26 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:58:26 EST Subject: [Dialogue] From Psalms.. Message-ID: Shabbat Shalom, (From the Lekarev Report) "Behold, the eye of Hashem is toward them that fear Him toward them that wair for His mercy..." Psalm 34:3-4 "O consider and see that Hashem is good; happy is the man that taketh refuge in him..." Psalm 34:8 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080229/509568ea/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 29 15:47:50 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:47:50 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Requesting your help - Tartans from Scotland Message-ID: <022920082147.7002.47C87D84000F36DB00001B5A22243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Hanoch, We actually have a Highlands Game Festival down here once a year, all kinda guys running around in skirts. Have you seen what the kids are wearing today? I doubt you would even raise an eyebrow on the subway (unless of course you painted your face blue and started yelling things like "For Bonnie Prince Charles"!). Shabbat Shalom Bro! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey John - Hmm, ANOTHER good choice! This is not going to be easy for me, that's for sure. You know, I never realized that starting up a "clan," involved so many tough choices. I wonder if the original Scottish clans had this much difficulty deciding on a Tartan pattern, or hey - maybe their wives picked it out for them!! :-) John, one thing though - as I mentioned to Sherry yesterday, I'm not sure about the whole Kilt thing. Here in NYC it could lead to questions about my umm, masculinity...Could you picture me going through Brooklyn on the 'F' or 'B' train, wearing a Kilt? LOL What an image, huh?!?! Shabbat Shalom pal! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080229/7a662912/attachment.html From house_of_danner at yahoo.com Fri Feb 29 23:40:05 2008 From: house_of_danner at yahoo.com (Pamela JD Rogers) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:40:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Requesting your help - Tartans from Scotland Message-ID: <708986.10384.qm@web33604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dia dhuit Hanoch, Allow me to introduce myself...Pamela Rogers (Pj) I am part of the Root of Faith Flock... :) May I ask if you are biologically connected to Scotland? ----- Original Message ---- From: "YoungBarzel at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:04:09 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Requesting your help - Tartans from Scotland Shalom L'Kulchem - Okay, I've asked some strange things on this list, but this one is among the 'best.' The link below enables you to select various Tartan patterns from Scotland, based on certain color priorities. I'm looking for a pattern that I will now adopt as MY family tartan!! :-) My daughters think it's a bit "unusual," but they're willing to 'vote', too! I've been looking primarily for those with blues and purples (it's a 2nd Temple kind of image in my head...). I wanted to invite you all (Y'all) to help me a bit, check it out and let me know your opinion of which one I should 'adopt,' okay? I wanted to ask a fun question this time - thanks in advance! Click here: Tartans & Fabrics from Scotweb Tartan & Fabric Finder Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080229/5cc88e7e/attachment.html