From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 1 00:42:07 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 06:42:07 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] HYN Message-ID: <010120080642.310.4779E0BF00036B5D0000013622218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Happy New Year All. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/b9c59c4d/attachment.html From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com Tue Jan 1 04:30:15 2008 From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 04:30:15 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) Message-ID: Shalom! I have to apologize for my lack of involvement in the Dialogue list. I think that this interactive element to the quest is essential and one of the missing pieces in our current attempt to uncover truth. Iron sharpens Iron and as my friend and sister Sherry Cole often reminds me, "the trying of your faith is precious!" I think that it goes without saying that there exists in our day something quite unique beginning to happen. I see that we are entering an awakening of sorts in which lies, vanity and things wherein there is no profit are being revealed. I have learned more from a healthy challenge of long established beliefs in the past two decades than from all of my days of sitting in the pews of various churches signing on to the status quo. For me there is NO turning back. I am on a mission to find and preach the truth. In so doing, I will be met with all sorts of opposition, of that I am sure. I am up to the challenge and look forward to it! Each of you will be as well. Notice please that most often; the ones that put up the strongest opposition to your search are those who do not seek for themselves. They shut up the doors to the kingdom of heaven - they will not enter nor will they allow any of you to enter. They circle the globe to make one convert and when they have made them, they make them twice the son of hell that they are! (Yeshua) I am driven to search by the very words of the Bible, with a certain promise that I will find Yehovah if I search for Him with all of my heart and all of my soul. Jesus of Nazareth reportedly said that few would find this elusive way. It is indeed a narrow way, a less trodden path and the Way has been overgrown for centuries by false teaching and tactics of fear. The garden has been sown with weeds. Because of some of the posts recently, I know that I should take some time and fill in some of the blanks for all of you and for those who are a bit confused or concerned about some of my associations. This will likely be long, but I think that it will help ease some of the concerns expressed in some of the notes lately. It often helps people to see where you have been in order to fully understand where you are going. I am giving a much abbreviated version and so I will try and put this all into one email. I grew up in a "Christian" home. I made my first "confession of faith" on June 6th, 1972 as a young boy. From what I remember I was very sincere. Church was my life. I loved the Bible stories and often imagined the stories happening before my eyes. All of my heroes were from the Bible. I would pretend to be Samson, or David, or one of the other men of God. When I was in kindergarten all the kids had to draw what they wanted to be when they grew up. There were firemen, and police officers, soldiers and then there was mine - proudly displayed in the hall of the school. A preacher with bell bottom plaid pants! I still have that picture. My mother was so proud. We were in the church every time the doors opened. I think my mother actually opened the doors. My mother and step dad (Dave) were very involved and worked in various parts of ministry. They helped start a church in Texas called BBT (Brazosport Baptist Temple). I remember the preacher very well. His name was Clifton Jones. At one point we had a bus ministry and I remember well how we went out and found some used school buses. My mother and Dave painted them and each bus was decorated and dedicated to one of the Peanuts characters (Snoopy, Charlie Brown, etc). We spent many days knocking on doors and inviting kids to church. Every Sunday morning we would dispatch the buses to bring the children into God's house. My mother developed a system to encourage kids to come. She hand made orange vests for every child that came a certain number of Sundays. Only God knows how many she made! One could then earn various badges. I still remember going to the Christian bookstore to buy pins and badges, pencils and other gifts. I cannot tell you how the kids (me included) worked to earn these trinkets. As I recall, each seat on the buses had a number painted on the back. When the last child was picked up, mother would draw a number from a bucket. The one in the winning seat won a silver dollar! All of this was such a wonderful time of my life. My mother always read me stories from the Bible and taught me the real test of what is right and wrong. If I ever wanted to know if something was okay or not, she would ask me if I thought Jesus would approve of me doing it. It was her belief that Jesus went everywhere with me and so all I had to do was to think about that. Sort of kept me from watching "dirty movies" (anything worse than G rating).....for many years. After all, would Jesus approve of anything else:-)? I still ask the question of what would Jesus do?...only with a bit more education now. Thanks Mother! Our life was regulated by my mother's walk with God. She has always been (and still is) a student of the things of God. When she found new truth, she simply packed up and walked that way...and we followed. Fast forward - In 1985 I entered active duty in the US Army. Bridget (my high school girlfriend) and I were married in February 1986. I spent nearly seven years on active duty. One day while walking through the barracks - and using a bit of profanity in the halls (I found this to be an effective way to make privates jump:-).) As I approached the desk in the center of the hallway (where every 24 hours a new pair of soldiers were assigned CQ [charge of quarters] duty) a soldier looked at me and said the following: "Sergeant, would you please refrain from using profanity". This was all it took. I felt like a knife was stabbed into my heart. Long story short, I ended up working all night with this soldier. He had just transferred to our unit and was placed on duty. I went to the office of the First Sergeant and was informed that I would be working on duty with this new soldier. His name was Godwin...and I have always found this to be quite interesting; GOD WIN. I can look back now and see that his comment made me think and started the wheels turning inside of me. So, all that night, we sat together at a desk. He read his Bible and I asked him a few questions. The next morning I hurried home from work and woke Bridget up and told her what had happened. I went alone that morning in uniform in search of a church. I found an Assembly of God church, though I was looking for a Baptist church. That morning I ran to the altar and re-dedicated my life to God. It was in the winter and must have been very close to New Years as I recall sitting at home reading my Bible for New Year's eve. Bridget and I had a wonderful time in this church and were both very involved. She led music as I recall. About this time, my mother had become associated with Joseph Good and Hatikiva Ministries. It was in the late 80s. She was very excited about this new found awareness of the "Jewish Roots of Christianity" and shared what she was learning with me. She sent me a copy of a book entitled, "Rosh HaShanah and the Messianic Kingdom to Come" by Joseph Good. I read this book until it literally fell to pieces. I still have this book. It changed my life. At the time, Joe and his congregation had a weekly study in Texas. I was stationed in Fort Hood Texas. I drove there a couple of times and got hooked on this Quest for a better understanding of the authentic Jesus and formative Christianity. I began to study the feasts, wore out language study tools (Strong's, Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Brown Driver Briggs) and I read the Bible through from front to back several times over the next year. What began to emerge was a faith that was far removed from the faith that I grew up with. I could not get enough. Joe had another man there at his ministry that made an impact on me. His name was Andy Garza. He had been studying Hebrew and I was blown away at the things that he taught. I could sit for hours and listen to him. I knew that I wanted to learn more. Anything Jewish or in any way related to Hebrew thinking I devoured. He gave me a few gifts on one of my visits: Every Man's Talmud, an Encyclopedia of Jewish Religion, a copy of a treatise called, "Restoring Abrahamic Faith" by someone named James D. Tabor and a copy of a lecture by the same entitled, the Five Fundamental Flaws of Evangelical Christianity. The treatise was missing a couple of pages, but it was incredible. It was what my heart had sought. Here was the essence of Biblical Faith in less than 40 pages. The footnotes were numerous, but the proof was enough for me to realize that if one truly wanted to "follow Jesus" then he would look more Jewish than Christian. My life began to change. I saw things from a different perspective. I slowly began to adopt teachings that I had never even considered. I changed my diet. I decided to follow the teachings of Jesus in a real way. I wanted to know him in a real way, and not just say that I believed in him. In late 1991 I felt an irresistible pull to leave the Army. I loved the military and had been promoted and awarded and was on my way to sure stardom in the service. I had just completed BNCOC (Basic Non Commissioned Officer Course) and had won every award that they offered. I was the top graduate of the school, I won the Association of the Army's Most Outstanding NCO, and several other awards. When I returned to Fort Hood from the school I completed several other courses and was inducted into the Sergeant Audie Murphy Club. This is a big deal. All of this was going on and yet I could not help but know that it was time to move on. I can look back now and say for certain that I felt God calling me to leave the Army. In November we took leave and I put a resume in at the local job service office. I asked Andy Garza who was going to Israel to pray for direction for me. He informed me that when he was in Israel, he would put a prayer in between the rocks of the Temple's Western wall. To this day I do not know what he wrote on that note, but I think it helped. On December 2nd, 1991 I began my drive to Louisiana. Bridget and the three oldest had gone ahead of me. We have since had three more! I had no idea what we would do for money, but I knew that God was in control. This was before cell phones. I remember stopping at some point to call Bridget. She said that I had received a note from the Job Service and that I had an interview for a job at Georgia Pacific - a paper mill close to our new home. We were so excited. The interview was scheduled for December 4th. I never had a day off from work! I worked part time at a gas station for a few weeks until I started the new job at GP. I have been here ever since. My studies intensified. My job at GP was mindless. I operated some equipment, but it was easy to keep it running. My workmate was a fellow student of the Bible. We would spend 48 hours a week, most of it reading and discussing the Bible. I met a few people that were also interested in Bible Study and we began to meet at my house. For the most part I stuck with the Bible though I did read a couple of books during this time. I read, "Our Father Abraham" by Marvin Wilson and "Will the Real Jesus Please Stand" by Vendyl Jones. Another employee that I worked with was an avid sportsman. He would often tell me stories about hunting and fishing and I would tell him about God. We were not at all interested in the same things. One day he made a deal with me. He said that he would not talk huntin' and fishin' with me if I would quit preaching to him. Furthermore, he said he would give me his grandfather's number if I wanted to talk Bible. It seemed that his grandfather was as nutty as I was according to him:-). He had even translated his own copy of the NT since he didn't trust any translation. Now he had my attention! As it turned out, his grandfather lived right around the corner from me. Mr. Bordelon was in his 80s. I called him that very day and excitedly told him how I had come to get his number. He invited me over and I went that evening. When I arrived he quickly took me into his study where he had a stack of spiral bound notebooks. I asked him what he planned to do with them. He told me that God had promised that he would send someone to type them. After a few minutes I told him that I would take on the task. He asked me what I would charge him and I told him there would not be any charge, but that I would have to "squeeze it in" with my busy schedule. He agreed. It never crossed my mind that this might be a problem since I did not know how to type! So with a promise to complete the task and newly formed friendship I went home that night with the letters to the church in Thessalonica. I read them that night and started to type them. This process would take me a couple of years - five to be exact but perhaps more on that later. I had read Vendyl's book and so I had a burning desire to learn Hebrew. I called Vendyl's ministry and was shocked when he answered the phone. I told him why I had called and he asked me where I lived. I told him that I lived close to Baton Rouge Louisiana. I was surprised when he asked me if I was familiar with a certain street. I was! My wife's grandparents lived on that very street. He told me that a very good friend of his, named Johnny Powell lived there and would be more than happy to teach me Hebrew. It must have been 1992. I made the call and on my first off day, I drove to meet him. When I arrived at the home I was invited in. Johnny quickly got down to business. He had grown up Baptist, the son of a prominent preacher. He asked me if I was willing to put aside all that I had learned no matter what the consequences of that would be. I agreed. Would I be willing to give up cherished beliefs if the Hebrew Bible proved them to be false? I agreed to this as well. He made me feel somewhat better by reaffirming that I would be learning to read the Bible that Jesus had read. I could not wait to get started. He pointed to his bookshelf. On the shelf there were three Hebrew Bibles (Tanak). They were beautiful. He let me take one down and I was almost in tears as I held it in my hands and thumbed through its pages looking at the strange but beautiful script. He then made me put it back and said that I could not hold it again until I had passed all of the tests with suitable proficiency. He then gave me a couple of books and sent me on my way. We met weekly and would spend countless hours over the next couple of years in deep discussions. In February of 1994 I had successfully passed all of tests and so on a rainy cold night in Baton Rouge, in the study of my teacher he handed me my own copy of the Bible in Hebrew. I could not hold back the tears. Now I could know for myself. I no longer had to trust man. I had graduated! Amidst an occasional thunder I sat speechless with the man that had given the tools to "fish for myself". Meanwhile I was steady at work typing the NT of Mr. Bordelon. He and I also talked often. This too proved to be an education. As soon as I would turn over a book of the NT to its translator, he would double check my typing for errors and give me back the marked up pages which I would fix in my word processor. This seemed to go on endlessly, but I was continually learning and the more I typed, the more I began to question some of my former understandings. My home bible studies were fun. During this time I met Mark Loyd and Dennis Hartner. They were both working for an energy company and having heard of me, they showed up at my home one day. We spent hours talking and by the end of the conversation agreed to meet more frequently. Sometimes they would come to my home and sometimes I would meet them at one of theirs. We became best of friends. Dennis and I would often argue, but it was all for the cause of truth. One evening Dennis came by and asked me what I knew about Ephraim. I told him that Ephraim was a son of Joseph, but further than that was not sure what he was asking. He told me that he had become convinced that there was something more that we had missed. He said that understanding just who this Ephraim is would prove to be the key to understanding the Biblical revelation. In an effort to prove him wrong I stayed up all night reading every reference I could find. What I found was that he was truly on to something. By the end of the night I was re-thinking everything! When the sun came up the next day I was still awake. When the mail arrived at about 10:30, an envelope addressed to me had come. The returnee was named, Maurice Bartel. In the envelope were two drawings concerning Biblical Ephraim. I still carry these in my bag. The artist meant to show that the house of Israel, the lost tribes were known as Ephraim and that this group made up the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel for whom Yeshua had come. I was blown away! I quickly began to map this new information with my studies from the previous night and felt that things were beginning to fall into place. Had all of my studies brought me to a realization that many of those who currently were "Christians" were in fact descendants of the lost Israelites in a literal sense? After all, had not Yeshua himself said that he "came NOT but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel"? (Matthew 15:24; cf Jeremiah 50:6). And what about the New Covenant that was specifically promised to the House of Judah (the Jews) and the House of Israel (lost) [Jeremiah 31:31-34]? Could there be something here that had been hidden for centuries? All of my studies and my education gained from typing the NT began to come into focus. Was there a reason for all of this? A couple from Joe Good's congregation and friends of my mother (Roger and Betty Givin) had called me this same week. Betty told me that they would be coming through our town en route to her brother's house in North Carolina and she asked if they could stop in. I told them that we would love to have them and they agreed to spend the night. When she arrived I could not help but show her all that I was learning. I will never forget her face as I related this new found knowledge. Surely I had been granted special favor and had been shown something that no one had ever seen. When I finally took a breath, she said that she had something in her car that she had to show me. When she returned she had in her hand a paper written on front and back about the return of Israel. It was written by her brother. I learned at that moment that her brother was none other than James Tabor! What a small world! I never knew this though I had known Roger and Betty for years. She asked me to make a cassette tape of what I had just told her so that she could take it to him when she went to visit. I was nervous. What in the world would I say? Why would a distinguished scholar take the time to listen to some "nobody" stumble through some Bible verses on a cassette? I stayed up most of the night hitting the record button....talking for a few minutes and then erasing and starting over. The only way I can explain what I felt was that it would be like a young seminary student making a tape for Billy Graham. Nevertheless I made the tape and the next day Roger and Betty set off with the cargo. Within a few days, late one night while in my study (a small crowded room adjoined to my laundry room) the phone rang. I ran to pick it up so that the kids and Bridget would not wake up. I immediately recognized the voice. It was Dr. Tabor! I could not believe it. He was very complimentary of the tape and asked me questions about how I came to this. I told him and I remember how wonderful it felt that Professor Tabor would take the time and show interest in me. It changed my life. Back then I had a 2400 baud modem. Every day I was always checking for email. They came all the time. At work I would get faxes and Tabor and I sent hundreds back and forth. It would prove to be one of the best times of my life. We became very close and in June of 1995 I met him face to face at Roger and Betty's home in Texas. We studied all night together (Isaiah 40-66). Over the next several years, we continued in almost daily communication via fax, email and phone. Tabor had come across a Jewish organization (UIWU) that believed in the Hebrew Bible alone and in the restoration of all of Israel which by now we knew was the single most important point of Biblical teaching. This reunion, we had become convinced, would lead to the blessings of all nations and the realization of the Kingdom of God on earth. While Tabor and I were convinced that most of the "lost sheep" were in various forms of Christianity, David Horowitz was Jewish. James became very close with David. I read his book 33 Candles and this led to an in-depth study of the "Bible in the Hands of Its Creators" called by us the Blue Book. James would join up with David in the UIWU and in many ways brought new life to the organization. Most of its members had simply died off. Over the next several years we would wrestle with whether or not to start something new or build upon the original ideas espoused by David Horowitz. While we certainly did not agree with everything that had led to the founding of UIWU (some of the past was quite colorful), we found its charter to be amazing and fitting for any organization whose goal was to restore Torah Faith and bring about a restoration of the two houses. There were many other involved in this, but I can give more details later perhaps. In 1995, I went to Charlotte to be ordained as a Bible Teacher through the United Israel World Union along with two others; Ronnie Fulcher and Timothy Thompson. This event took place on the 24th of Kislev. Upon leaving that ceremony, I felt like I had been charged to go forth with a message, but alas I was a messenger without a congregation. I felt that in some way I needed to reach the group that was beginning to make the journey home. I still feel that this is my task. Not that I see myself as anyone important in the grand scheme of things, but as David Horowitz once said, I am a soldier sworn to a cause. I felt that I needed to formulate a set of beliefs that would allow me to continue to study and yet somehow connect with my roots. In one evening I typed out the following: What do I believe? I put my faith in the God of Jesus - commonly referred to as "the LORD", but known by the designation YHWH in the Hebrew Bible, and referred to by Jesus of Nazareth in the New Testament by the Aramaic term Abba / father. This God is one, and beside him there is no other, neither in heaven nor on earth. He is the Ancient of Days, El Shaddai, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I put my faith in the Bible that Jesus read - commonly referred to as the "Old Testament", but strictly and properly referred to as the Hebrew Bible or TaNaK, an acronym formed by the first letters of three Hebrew words used to designate the three main parts of the Hebrew Bible (Torah - Law, Neviim - the Prophets and Ketuvim - the Writings). I put my faith in the authentic teachings and mission of Jesus - to bring about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, to seek and save the lost sheep of the house of Israel (hitherto unaware of their true identity), and to do and teach the Torah of YHWH. What can I say? I am the composite of my experiences. I was raised by a God fearing woman who follows her heart and desires to be a servant of God. I was blessed with good teachers and teaching; my mother, my Granny (mother's mother), Joe Good, Andy Garza, Johnny Powell, James Tabor and many many more. I have learned the most when my cherished beliefs were put in the scales and weighed against the Biblical revelation. I am proud to be friends with those from whom I have learned. I have learned a lot, but still have much to learn. As long as Yehovah lets me breath I will continue to learn. I am still willing to throw everything away for the truth. My journey, though much abbreviated here is only beginning. I hope that those of you who are going through some troublesome times and a questioning of your faith would make the same commitment. This is not a request for you to follow me, but to follow God WITH me. Let's learn together. We will certainly have to rethink things as we go, and this includes James Tabor. He knows this and is willing to make the journey. He has spent his life thus far rethinking and re-evaluating. If I know him, and I think I do, he will live out his days on the quest. No matter what scholars discover through linguistic studies or with the spade I am willing to adapt. I want the truth and only the truth! To quote an ancient Prayer: Ancient Prayer >From the cowardice that shrinks from new truths, >From the laziness that is content with half-truths, >From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, O God of truth, deliver us. There are many others out there that I could name which have contributed and continue to contribute to my learning that I did not mention in this brief note. I hope that you are not offended. I often learn from my students and am always looking for such opportunities. I could not fail to mention that I have spent more time with Brian Jones talking of these matters than all others put together I would suppose. He is the one who encouraged me to take things to the level that many of you are familiar with now. He has made the synagogue without walls possible. All of my learning goes nowhere if I cannot reach the masses. He has made this possible. Hanoch is a valued friend. He and I have often talked of reaching out and now we have a way to do this. Ralph and Becky Buntyn are some of my closest friends. They too have been most encouraging. Their collective experiences and wisdom have helped me in more ways than I can say. Dennis Jones is and has been a good companion along the way. JDavid Davis has been a close friend for many years. Of course all of my dear friends at Temple Sinai are more than brothers and sisters. They are friends and I have learned a great deal from them. They are family. This new family also includes those of you who live elsewhere. This path is not easy. The easy path is the one from which you came. If you seek a smooth way, then turn around and go back. I hope however that you will choose the road less traveled. It leads to life. The promise is to those that seek. Those that are not sick do not need a physician. I am here to help the sick. I seek this healing and restoration for me as well as for all of you. Will you join me? Consider this closely: I am and will continue to be associated with James Tabor. He is one of my closest friends on the planet and probably will be my whole life long. I believe in what the UIWU stands for and find it to be in line with the Biblical revelation. There is nothing to join here. You are free to leave. There is no hidden agenda. We may not always agree on all points. Tabor and I certainly do not agree on everything, but we still love and respect one another. I want to have that relationship with all of you. Who is in? I am honored that Joseph Good came to me to study the tribes. He is a gifted teacher of the Bible and has led many to Torah Faith. I look forward to many fruitful years working with the giants of the faith. I consider all of you to be teachers, even if you are not yet teaching. I began as a student of Joe and James. I still learn from them. Those of you that have learned from me have learned from them because I learned from them. A student is not above his teacher. It is enough that a student be like his teacher. I hope that I can attain that worthy goal. I hope that you can attain the same. Now let's dialogue! This note was sent to the dialogue list and copied to my mother on the 1st day of 2008 - the 23rd of Tevet 5768. Shalom, Ross -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/0d13828b/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Jan 1 07:02:56 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 08:02:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Ross, I want to thank you for your long personal account of your quest for the Ancient Paths. I found it as moving as I did informative and I really appreciate the time you put into writing it after a long night at work. You must be very tired, but also "wired" for this topic. Your message filled in some blanks for me and waking up to such an inspiring message this New Year's Day of 2008, surely bodes well for the New (Roman) Year. I also like the idea that THIS e-mail to you and your associates on the Dialogue list is the FIRST message I am writing in 2008. One minor but quite significant typo...your ordination as a minister with UIWU was in 2003, on Kislev 24, not 1995. On this matter of dates it is most interesting that I END my Horowitz Saga with January, 1995, since that very year did indeed introduce a whole new "chapter" to my own life and quest, namely the beginnings of a close association with you. You will recall the intense rounds of study we had in the subsequent years, the trips together, the endless hours of face to face study with Dennis, Ralph, and others. I guess it is time for "another" Saga that would take us into the 21st century with the incredible things that have transpired, you with your Temple Sinai things, my own involvement worldwide with the publication of my book, and so forth. There is much to relate. Take care, much love and respect, For the Project (FTP), James On Jan 1, 2008, at 5:30 AM, Nichols, Ross K. wrote: > Shalom! > > I have to apologize for my lack of involvement in the Dialogue > list. I think that this interactive element to the quest is > essential and one of the missing pieces in our current attempt to > uncover truth. Iron sharpens Iron and as my friend and sister Sherry > Cole often reminds me, ?the trying of your faith is precious!? > > I think that it goes without saying that there exists in our day > something quite unique beginning to happen. I see that we are > entering an awakening of sorts in which lies, vanity and things > wherein there is no profit are being revealed. I have learned more > from a healthy challenge of long established beliefs in the past two > decades than from all of my days of sitting in the pews of various > churches signing on to the status quo. For me there is NO turning > back. I am on a mission to find and preach the truth. In so doing, > I will be met with all sorts of opposition, of that I am sure. I am > up to the challenge and look forward to it! Each of you will be as > well. Notice please that most often; the ones that put up the > strongest opposition to your search are those who do not seek for > themselves. They shut up the doors to the kingdom of heaven ? they > will not enter nor will they allow any of you to enter. They circle > the globe to make one convert and when they have made them, they > make them twice the son of hell that they are! (Yeshua) > > I am driven to search by the very words of the Bible, with a certain > promise that I will find Yehovah if I search for Him with all of my > heart and all of my soul. Jesus of Nazareth reportedly said that few > would find this elusive way. It is indeed a narrow way, a less > trodden path and the Way has been overgrown for centuries by false > teaching and tactics of fear. The garden has been sown with weeds. > > Because of some of the posts recently, I know that I should take > some time and fill in some of the blanks for all of you and for > those who are a bit confused or concerned about some of my > associations. This will likely be long, but I think that it will > help ease some of the concerns expressed in some of the notes > lately. It often helps people to see where you have been in order > to fully understand where you are going. I am giving a much > abbreviated version and so I will try and put this all into one email. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/a2dc6a7f/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Jan 1 07:22:41 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 08:22:41 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] HYN In-Reply-To: <010120080642.310.4779E0BF00036B5D0000013622218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <010120080642.310.4779E0BF00036B5D0000013622218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: Same to you and to all John, James On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:42 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > Happy New Year All. > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > _______________________________________________ From RNDAVAR at aol.com Tue Jan 1 07:32:45 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 08:32:45 EST Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) Message-ID: Yes! Thanks for catching this and correcting. There is more to come as I am certainly inspired. But first some needed sleep. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/fea9d425/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Tue Jan 1 09:05:38 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:05:38 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) References: Message-ID: <009901c84c87$c551fdc0$64012b0a@beeblbrox> Thanks for this, Ross. I agree with James, an inspirational read for this day! (just what I needed) I can understand the concerns expressed re some of the associations, specifically the Lost Tomb subject. Many of us are not in that 'loop', and only know what we have seen via the media, etc. I am learning to withhold judgement until after studying the issues more thoroughly. One thing that has caused me to pause on that subject is the quality of the insights and posts that James Tabor has produced for this list. Also, the sincere quality of Ross' testimony and teachings cause me to want to trust his judgement on these things, despite my own lack of information and understanding. Truth will become apparant to us all, when we seek with all our heart, with the willingness to give up anything false and counter to the true Faith. Shalom to you all Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Nichols, Ross K. To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Cc: kfaymontgomery at yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:30 AM Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU,Lost Tribes) Shalom! I have to apologize for my lack of involvement in the Dialogue list. I think that this interactive element to the quest is essential and one of the missing pieces in our current attempt to uncover truth. Iron sharpens Iron and as my friend and sister Sherry Cole often reminds me, "the trying of your faith is precious!" I think that it goes without saying that there exists in our day something quite unique beginning to happen. I see that we are entering an awakening of sorts in which lies, vanity and things wherein there is no profit are being revealed. I have learned more from a healthy challenge of long established beliefs in the past two decades than from all of my days of sitting in the pews of various churches signing on to the status quo. For me there is NO turning back. I am on a mission to find and preach the truth. In so doing, I will be met with all sorts of opposition, of that I am sure. I am up to the challenge and look forward to it! Each of you will be as well. Notice please that most often; the ones that put up the strongest opposition to your search are those who do not seek for themselves. They shut up the doors to the kingdom of heaven - they will not enter nor will they allow any of you to enter. They circle the globe to make one convert and when they have made them, they make them twice the son of hell that they are! (Yeshua) I am driven to search by the very words of the Bible, with a certain promise that I will find Yehovah if I search for Him with all of my heart and all of my soul. Jesus of Nazareth reportedly said that few would find this elusive way. It is indeed a narrow way, a less trodden path and the Way has been overgrown for centuries by false teaching and tactics of fear. The garden has been sown with weeds. Because of some of the posts recently, I know that I should take some time and fill in some of the blanks for all of you and for those who are a bit confused or concerned about some of my associations. This will likely be long, but I think that it will help ease some of the concerns expressed in some of the notes lately. It often helps people to see where you have been in order to fully understand where you are going. I am giving a much abbreviated version and so I will try and put this all into one email. I grew up in a "Christian" home. I made my first "confession of faith" on June 6th, 1972 as a young boy. From what I remember I was very sincere. Church was my life. I loved the Bible stories and often imagined the stories happening before my eyes. All of my heroes were from the Bible. I would pretend to be Samson, or David, or one of the other men of God. When I was in kindergarten all the kids had to draw what they wanted to be when they grew up. There were firemen, and police officers, soldiers and then there was mine - proudly displayed in the hall of the school. A preacher with bell bottom plaid pants! I still have that picture. My mother was so proud. We were in the church every time the doors opened. I think my mother actually opened the doors. My mother and step dad (Dave) were very involved and worked in various parts of ministry. They helped start a church in Texas called BBT (Brazosport Baptist Temple). I remember the preacher very well. His name was Clifton Jones. At one point we had a bus ministry and I remember well how we went out and found some used school buses. My mother and Dave painted them and each bus was decorated and dedicated to one of the Peanuts characters (Snoopy, Charlie Brown, etc). We spent many days knocking on doors and inviting kids to church. Every Sunday morning we would dispatch the buses to bring the children into God's house. My mother developed a system to encourage kids to come. She hand made orange vests for every child that came a certain number of Sundays. Only God knows how many she made! One could then earn various badges. I still remember going to the Christian bookstore to buy pins and badges, pencils and other gifts. I cannot tell you how the kids (me included) worked to earn these trinkets. As I recall, each seat on the buses had a number painted on the back. When the last child was picked up, mother would draw a number from a bucket. The one in the winning seat won a silver dollar! All of this was such a wonderful time of my life. My mother always read me stories from the Bible and taught me the real test of what is right and wrong. If I ever wanted to know if something was okay or not, she would ask me if I thought Jesus would approve of me doing it. It was her belief that Jesus went everywhere with me and so all I had to do was to think about that. Sort of kept me from watching "dirty movies" (anything worse than G rating).....for many years. After all, would Jesus approve of anything elseJ? I still ask the question of what would Jesus do?...only with a bit more education now. Thanks Mother! Our life was regulated by my mother's walk with God. She has always been (and still is) a student of the things of God. When she found new truth, she simply packed up and walked that way...and we followed. Fast forward - In 1985 I entered active duty in the US Army. Bridget (my high school girlfriend) and I were married in February 1986. I spent nearly seven years on active duty. One day while walking through the barracks - and using a bit of profanity in the halls (I found this to be an effective way to make privates jumpJ.) As I approached the desk in the center of the hallway (where every 24 hours a new pair of soldiers were assigned CQ [charge of quarters] duty) a soldier looked at me and said the following: "Sergeant, would you please refrain from using profanity". This was all it took. I felt like a knife was stabbed into my heart. Long story short, I ended up working all night with this soldier. He had just transferred to our unit and was placed on duty. I went to the office of the First Sergeant and was informed that I would be working on duty with this new soldier. His name was Godwin...and I have always found this to be quite interesting; GOD WIN. I can look back now and see that his comment made me think and started the wheels turning inside of me. So, all that night, we sat together at a desk. He read his Bible and I asked him a few questions. The next morning I hurried home from work and woke Bridget up and told her what had happened. I went alone that morning in uniform in search of a church. I found an Assembly of God church, though I was looking for a Baptist church. That morning I ran to the altar and re-dedicated my life to God. It was in the winter and must have been very close to New Years as I recall sitting at home reading my Bible for New Year's eve. Bridget and I had a wonderful time in this church and were both very involved. She led music as I recall. About this time, my mother had become associated with Joseph Good and Hatikiva Ministries. It was in the late 80s. She was very excited about this new found awareness of the "Jewish Roots of Christianity" and shared what she was learning with me. She sent me a copy of a book entitled, "Rosh HaShanah and the Messianic Kingdom to Come" by Joseph Good. I read this book until it literally fell to pieces. I still have this book. It changed my life. At the time, Joe and his congregation had a weekly study in Texas. I was stationed in Fort Hood Texas. I drove there a couple of times and got hooked on this Quest for a better understanding of the authentic Jesus and formative Christianity. I began to study the feasts, wore out language study tools (Strong's, Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Brown Driver Briggs) and I read the Bible through from front to back several times over the next year. What began to emerge was a faith that was far removed from the faith that I grew up with. I could not get enough. Joe had another man there at his ministry that made an impact on me. His name was Andy Garza. He had been studying Hebrew and I was blown away at the things that he taught. I could sit for hours and listen to him. I knew that I wanted to learn more. Anything Jewish or in any way related to Hebrew thinking I devoured. He gave me a few gifts on one of my visits: Every Man's Talmud, an Encyclopedia of Jewish Religion, a copy of a treatise called, "Restoring Abrahamic Faith" by someone named James D. Tabor and a copy of a lecture by the same entitled, the Five Fundamental Flaws of Evangelical Christianity. The treatise was missing a couple of pages, but it was incredible. It was what my heart had sought. Here was the essence of Biblical Faith in less than 40 pages. The footnotes were numerous, but the proof was enough for me to realize that if one truly wanted to "follow Jesus" then he would look more Jewish than Christian. My life began to change. I saw things from a different perspective. I slowly began to adopt teachings that I had never even considered. I changed my diet. I decided to follow the teachings of Jesus in a real way. I wanted to know him in a real way, and not just say that I believed in him. In late 1991 I felt an irresistible pull to leave the Army. I loved the military and had been promoted and awarded and was on my way to sure stardom in the service. I had just completed BNCOC (Basic Non Commissioned Officer Course) and had won every award that they offered. I was the top graduate of the school, I won the Association of the Army's Most Outstanding NCO, and several other awards. When I returned to Fort Hood from the school I completed several other courses and was inducted into the Sergeant Audie Murphy Club. This is a big deal. All of this was going on and yet I could not help but know that it was time to move on. I can look back now and say for certain that I felt God calling me to leave the Army. In November we took leave and I put a resume in at the local job service office. I asked Andy Garza who was going to Israel to pray for direction for me. He informed me that when he was in Israel, he would put a prayer in between the rocks of the Temple's Western wall. To this day I do not know what he wrote on that note, but I think it helped. On December 2nd, 1991 I began my drive to Louisiana. Bridget and the three oldest had gone ahead of me. We have since had three more! I had no idea what we would do for money, but I knew that God was in control. This was before cell phones. I remember stopping at some point to call Bridget. She said that I had received a note from the Job Service and that I had an interview for a job at Georgia Pacific - a paper mill close to our new home. We were so excited. The interview was scheduled for December 4th. I never had a day off from work! I worked part time at a gas station for a few weeks until I started the new job at GP. I have been here ever since. My studies intensified. My job at GP was mindless. I operated some equipment, but it was easy to keep it running. My workmate was a fellow student of the Bible. We would spend 48 hours a week, most of it reading and discussing the Bible. I met a few people that were also interested in Bible Study and we began to meet at my house. For the most part I stuck with the Bible though I did read a couple of books during this time. I read, "Our Father Abraham" by Marvin Wilson and "Will the Real Jesus Please Stand" by Vendyl Jones. Another employee that I worked with was an avid sportsman. He would often tell me stories about hunting and fishing and I would tell him about God. We were not at all interested in the same things. One day he made a deal with me. He said that he would not talk huntin' and fishin' with me if I would quit preaching to him. Furthermore, he said he would give me his grandfather's number if I wanted to talk Bible. It seemed that his grandfather was as nutty as I was according to himJ. He had even translated his own copy of the NT since he didn't trust any translation. Now he had my attention! As it turned out, his grandfather lived right around the corner from me. Mr. Bordelon was in his 80s. I called him that very day and excitedly told him how I had come to get his number. He invited me over and I went that evening. When I arrived he quickly took me into his study where he had a stack of spiral bound notebooks. I asked him what he planned to do with them. He told me that God had promised that he would send someone to type them. After a few minutes I told him that I would take on the task. He asked me what I would charge him and I told him there would not be any charge, but that I would have to "squeeze it in" with my busy schedule. He agreed. It never crossed my mind that this might be a problem since I did not know how to type! So with a promise to complete the task and newly formed friendship I went home that night with the letters to the church in Thessalonica. I read them that night and started to type them. This process would take me a couple of years - five to be exact but perhaps more on that later. I had read Vendyl's book and so I had a burning desire to learn Hebrew. I called Vendyl's ministry and was shocked when he answered the phone. I told him why I had called and he asked me where I lived. I told him that I lived close to Baton Rouge Louisiana. I was surprised when he asked me if I was familiar with a certain street. I was! My wife's grandparents lived on that very street. He told me that a very good friend of his, named Johnny Powell lived there and would be more than happy to teach me Hebrew. It must have been 1992. I made the call and on my first off day, I drove to meet him. When I arrived at the home I was invited in. Johnny quickly got down to business. He had grown up Baptist, the son of a prominent preacher. He asked me if I was willing to put aside all that I had learned no matter what the consequences of that would be. I agreed. Would I be willing to give up cherished beliefs if the Hebrew Bible proved them to be false? I agreed to this as well. He made me feel somewhat better by reaffirming that I would be learning to read the Bible that Jesus had read. I could not wait to get started. He pointed to his bookshelf. On the shelf there were three Hebrew Bibles (Tanak). They were beautiful. He let me take one down and I was almost in tears as I held it in my hands and thumbed through its pages looking at the strange but beautiful script. He then made me put it back and said that I could not hold it again until I had passed all of the tests with suitable proficiency. He then gave me a couple of books and sent me on my way. We met weekly and would spend countless hours over the next couple of years in deep discussions. In February of 1994 I had successfully passed all of tests and so on a rainy cold night in Baton Rouge, in the study of my teacher he handed me my own copy of the Bible in Hebrew. I could not hold back the tears. Now I could know for myself. I no longer had to trust man. I had graduated! Amidst an occasional thunder I sat speechless with the man that had given the tools to "fish for myself". Meanwhile I was steady at work typing the NT of Mr. Bordelon. He and I also talked often. This too proved to be an education. As soon as I would turn over a book of the NT to its translator, he would double check my typing for errors and give me back the marked up pages which I would fix in my word processor. This seemed to go on endlessly, but I was continually learning and the more I typed, the more I began to question some of my former understandings. My home bible studies were fun. During this time I met Mark Loyd and Dennis Hartner. They were both working for an energy company and having heard of me, they showed up at my home one day. We spent hours talking and by the end of the conversation agreed to meet more frequently. Sometimes they would come to my home and sometimes I would meet them at one of theirs. We became best of friends. Dennis and I would often argue, but it was all for the cause of truth. One evening Dennis came by and asked me what I knew about Ephraim. I told him that Ephraim was a son of Joseph, but further than that was not sure what he was asking. He told me that he had become convinced that there was something more that we had missed. He said that understanding just who this Ephraim is would prove to be the key to understanding the Biblical revelation. In an effort to prove him wrong I stayed up all night reading every reference I could find. What I found was that he was truly on to something. By the end of the night I was re-thinking everything! When the sun came up the next day I was still awake. When the mail arrived at about 10:30, an envelope addressed to me had come. The returnee was named, Maurice Bartel. In the envelope were two drawings concerning Biblical Ephraim. I still carry these in my bag. The artist meant to show that the house of Israel, the lost tribes were known as Ephraim and that this group made up the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel for whom Yeshua had come. I was blown away! I quickly began to map this new information with my studies from the previous night and felt that things were beginning to fall into place. Had all of my studies brought me to a realization that many of those who currently were "Christians" were in fact descendants of the lost Israelites in a literal sense? After all, had not Yeshua himself said that he "came NOT but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel"? (Matthew 15:24; cf Jeremiah 50:6). And what about the New Covenant that was specifically promised to the House of Judah (the Jews) and the House of Israel (lost) [Jeremiah 31:31-34]? Could there be something here that had been hidden for centuries? All of my studies and my education gained from typing the NT began to come into focus. Was there a reason for all of this? A couple from Joe Good's congregation and friends of my mother (Roger and Betty Givin) had called me this same week. Betty told me that they would be coming through our town en route to her brother's house in North Carolina and she asked if they could stop in. I told them that we would love to have them and they agreed to spend the night. When she arrived I could not help but show her all that I was learning. I will never forget her face as I related this new found knowledge. Surely I had been granted special favor and had been shown something that no one had ever seen. When I finally took a breath, she said that she had something in her car that she had to show me. When she returned she had in her hand a paper written on front and back about the return of Israel. It was written by her brother. I learned at that moment that her brother was none other than James Tabor! What a small world! I never knew this though I had known Roger and Betty for years. She asked me to make a cassette tape of what I had just told her so that she could take it to him when she went to visit. I was nervous. What in the world would I say? Why would a distinguished scholar take the time to listen to some "nobody" stumble through some Bible verses on a cassette? I stayed up most of the night hitting the record button....talking for a few minutes and then erasing and starting over. The only way I can explain what I felt was that it would be like a young seminary student making a tape for Billy Graham. Nevertheless I made the tape and the next day Roger and Betty set off with the cargo. Within a few days, late one night while in my study (a small crowded room adjoined to my laundry room) the phone rang. I ran to pick it up so that the kids and Bridget would not wake up. I immediately recognized the voice. It was Dr. Tabor! I could not believe it. He was very complimentary of the tape and asked me questions about how I came to this. I told him and I remember how wonderful it felt that Professor Tabor would take the time and show interest in me. It changed my life. Back then I had a 2400 baud modem. Every day I was always checking for email. They came all the time. At work I would get faxes and Tabor and I sent hundreds back and forth. It would prove to be one of the best times of my life. We became very close and in June of 1995 I met him face to face at Roger and Betty's home in Texas. We studied all night together (Isaiah 40-66). Over the next several years, we continued in almost daily communication via fax, email and phone. Tabor had come across a Jewish organization (UIWU) that believed in the Hebrew Bible alone and in the restoration of all of Israel which by now we knew was the single most important point of Biblical teaching. This reunion, we had become convinced, would lead to the blessings of all nations and the realization of the Kingdom of God on earth. While Tabor and I were convinced that most of the "lost sheep" were in various forms of Christianity, David Horowitz was Jewish. James became very close with David. I read his book 33 Candles and this led to an in-depth study of the "Bible in the Hands of Its Creators" called by us the Blue Book. James would join up with David in the UIWU and in many ways brought new life to the organization. Most of its members had simply died off. Over the next several years we would wrestle with whether or not to start something new or build upon the original ideas espoused by David Horowitz. While we certainly did not agree with everything that had led to the founding of UIWU (some of the past was quite colorful), we found its charter to be amazing and fitting for any organization whose goal was to restore Torah Faith and bring about a restoration of the two houses. There were many other involved in this, but I can give more details later perhaps. In 1995, I went to Charlotte to be ordained as a Bible Teacher through the United Israel World Union along with two others; Ronnie Fulcher and Timothy Thompson. This event took place on the 24th of Kislev. Upon leaving that ceremony, I felt like I had been charged to go forth with a message, but alas I was a messenger without a congregation. I felt that in some way I needed to reach the group that was beginning to make the journey home. I still feel that this is my task. Not that I see myself as anyone important in the grand scheme of things, but as David Horowitz once said, I am a soldier sworn to a cause. I felt that I needed to formulate a set of beliefs that would allow me to continue to study and yet somehow connect with my roots. In one evening I typed out the following: What do I believe? I put my faith in the God of Jesus - commonly referred to as "the LORD", but known by the designation YHWH in the Hebrew Bible, and referred to by Jesus of Nazareth in the New Testament by the Aramaic term Abba / father. This God is one, and beside him there is no other, neither in heaven nor on earth. He is the Ancient of Days, El Shaddai, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I put my faith in the Bible that Jesus read - commonly referred to as the "Old Testament", but strictly and properly referred to as the Hebrew Bible or TaNaK, an acronym formed by the first letters of three Hebrew words used to designate the three main parts of the Hebrew Bible (Torah - Law, Neviim - the Prophets and Ketuvim - the Writings). I put my faith in the authentic teachings and mission of Jesus - to bring about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, to seek and save the lost sheep of the house of Israel (hitherto unaware of their true identity), and to do and teach the Torah of YHWH. What can I say? I am the composite of my experiences. I was raised by a God fearing woman who follows her heart and desires to be a servant of God. I was blessed with good teachers and teaching; my mother, my Granny (mother's mother), Joe Good, Andy Garza, Johnny Powell, James Tabor and many many more. I have learned the most when my cherished beliefs were put in the scales and weighed against the Biblical revelation. I am proud to be friends with those from whom I have learned. I have learned a lot, but still have much to learn. As long as Yehovah lets me breath I will continue to learn. I am still willing to throw everything away for the truth. My journey, though much abbreviated here is only beginning. I hope that those of you who are going through some troublesome times and a questioning of your faith would make the same commitment. This is not a request for you to follow me, but to follow God WITH me. Let's learn together. We will certainly have to rethink things as we go, and this includes James Tabor. He knows this and is willing to make the journey. He has spent his life thus far rethinking and re-evaluating. If I know him, and I think I do, he will live out his days on the quest. No matter what scholars discover through linguistic studies or with the spade I am willing to adapt. I want the truth and only the truth! To quote an ancient Prayer: Ancient Prayer From the cowardice that shrinks from new truths, >From the laziness that is content with half-truths, >From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, O God of truth, deliver us. There are many others out there that I could name which have contributed and continue to contribute to my learning that I did not mention in this brief note. I hope that you are not offended. I often learn from my students and am always looking for such opportunities. I could not fail to mention that I have spent more time with Brian Jones talking of these matters than all others put together I would suppose. He is the one who encouraged me to take things to the level that many of you are familiar with now. He has made the synagogue without walls possible. All of my learning goes nowhere if I cannot reach the masses. He has made this possible. Hanoch is a valued friend. He and I have often talked of reaching out and now we have a way to do this. Ralph and Becky Buntyn are some of my closest friends. They too have been most encouraging. Their collective experiences and wisdom have helped me in more ways than I can say. Dennis Jones is and has been a good companion along the way. JDavid Davis has been a close friend for many years. Of course all of my dear friends at Temple Sinai are more than brothers and sisters. They are friends and I have learned a great deal from them. They are family. This new family also includes those of you who live elsewhere. This path is not easy. The easy path is the one from which you came. If you seek a smooth way, then turn around and go back. I hope however that you will choose the road less traveled. It leads to life. The promise is to those that seek. Those that are not sick do not need a physician. I am here to help the sick. I seek this healing and restoration for me as well as for all of you. Will you join me? Consider this closely: I am and will continue to be associated with James Tabor. He is one of my closest friends on the planet and probably will be my whole life long. I believe in what the UIWU stands for and find it to be in line with the Biblical revelation. There is nothing to join here. You are free to leave. There is no hidden agenda. We may not always agree on all points. Tabor and I certainly do not agree on everything, but we still love and respect one another. I want to have that relationship with all of you. Who is in? I am honored that Joseph Good came to me to study the tribes. He is a gifted teacher of the Bible and has led many to Torah Faith. I look forward to many fruitful years working with the giants of the faith. I consider all of you to be teachers, even if you are not yet teaching. I began as a student of Joe and James. I still learn from them. Those of you that have learned from me have learned from them because I learned from them. A student is not above his teacher. It is enough that a student be like his teacher. I hope that I can attain that worthy goal. I hope that you can attain the same. Now let's dialogue! This note was sent to the dialogue list and copied to my mother on the 1st day of 2008 - the 23rd of Tevet 5768. Shalom, Ross ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/39cded73/attachment.html From wokdelight at yahoo.com Tue Jan 1 09:08:34 2008 From: wokdelight at yahoo.com (Vickie Pilkerton) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 07:08:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream Message-ID: <981347.99787.qm@web58309.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hello All, This is my first posting to "Dailogue". I am trying to understand a dream that I had and hope maybe someone has some insight. My husband and I are new (1 year) to study and the following of Torah. So much to learn, but are loving every step! In my dream I am sitting at the head of a large round table meeting with 6 people, none of whom I know personally. They are heads of religious, political and legal organizations. The meeting is lengthy and at lunch time we stop to eat. I have catered a meal for everyone present. Servers bring out a plate full of food, but on it is included a large, live, light-blue, transparent, "jelly" like fish. In each fish can be seen 1-3 more, smaller, live fish. Most at the table do not want to eat it, so I place them all in a large bowl. The bowl cannot contain all of them and they are jumping out of the top of the bowl because of overflow. Shortly after lunch is over, my husband and a friend (who is a supporter/teacher) join us for the meeting and they take over the proceedings. ~The End~ Today I find out that there is a traditional Jewish meal often served for Shabbat which consist of a Gefilte fish (Yiddish: ???????? ????) . Which are poached fish patties or balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, most carp (common carp). They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. In traditional recipes for gefilte fish, the fish is first deboned, often while still at the market. Next, the fish is ground into a paste along with eggs, onions and flour meal or matzoh meal and then stuffed back into the skin of the deboned fish, giving it the name gefilte (filled or stuffed). Doe's anyone see any connection or meaning in this kind of fish to my dream? Thanks! Lou I --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/70dbf2e0/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Jan 1 09:40:51 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:40:51 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: <009901c84c87$c551fdc0$64012b0a@beeblbrox> References: <009901c84c87$c551fdc0$64012b0a@beeblbrox> Message-ID: Dear Sharon, I really appreciate your expressions here. As a scholar and an academic I see the "Talpiot tomb" as a topic that may or may not be appropriate for this Dialogue list. I have not brought it up or pushed it in any way, nor have I mentioned/pushed my book, The Jesus Dynasty, as any who have been on since the beginning can testify. I have tried to answer questions when asked and when my book was featured in USNews&World Report I passed that along, as the issue contained much more on Christian origins that I thought might be of interest to the group. I have no personal agenda in this regard. I see the Tomb and related subjects as academically appropriate. I have reported on that with over 50 posts on my Blog (jesusdynasty.com/ blog), doing my best to objectively and honestly discuss the evidence, all the pros and cons, and so forth, but in a thoroughly historical manner. It is of enough serious interest that Princeton is sponsoring a full international conference on the tomb this month in Jerusalem, which I will give two papers. But I report on that on my own Web pages/ Blog, etc. with no intention of dominating the Dialogue list with that particular topic, that may or may not be of interest to folks. The same for other topics touched upon in my historical research. Those interested can easily access this material and learn all they wish to know about it and I have been glad to share what I know, as I have been at the center and forefront of the discovery. I guess you could say I wear two "hats." I am a professional scholar and teacher at a major university, but I also, on a personal level, am on a quest for the "ancient paths," and have been since I was about age 10. I am 61 now...That other hat, the biblical quest, is where UIWU comes in, the Jewish organization I took the leadership of following the death of its founder David Horowitz. What attracted me to that organization and to David is that it had absolutely NO dogma or creed other than the most simple one--faith in the Creator and promoting Torah faith for all nations, with an emphasis on research on the "lost tribes." This simplicity was in my view the wisdom of its founder. So far as I know UIWU is the only indigenous Jewish organization that holds up the union of Judah and the tribes of Joseph and those associated, as a prophetic ideal, though of course many Jews, rabbis, and teachers of Torah realize the importance of the lost tribes. As a non-Jew I am humbled to be its president and have such a wonderful and talented group of associates, including Ross Nichols. Anyway, here on the Dialogue list my preference is to stay with biblical matters, though there is of course some overlap with the academic, historical and archaeological. Hope this clarifies... James P. S. I should point out that if anyone replies to this thread with Ross' long post you need to clip/snip Ross's body as otherwise your response will be held up since the message is too long/big. On Jan 1, 2008, at 10:05 AM, Stephen & Sharon wrote: > Thanks for this, Ross. I agree with James, an inspirational read > for this day! (just what I needed) > > I can understand the concerns expressed re some of the associations, > specifically the Lost Tomb subject. Many of us are not in that > 'loop', and only know what we have seen via the media, etc. I am > learning to withhold judgement until after studying the issues more > thoroughly. One thing that has caused me to pause on that subject > is the quality of the insights and posts that James Tabor has > produced for this list. Also, the sincere quality of Ross' > testimony and teachings cause me to want to trust his judgement on > these things, despite my own lack of information and > understanding. Truth will become apparant to us all, when we seek > with all our heart, with the willingness to give up anything false > and counter to the true Faith. > > Shalom to you all > Sharon > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nichols, Ross K. > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Cc: kfaymontgomery at yahoo.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:30 AM > Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, > UIWU,Lost Tribes) > > Shalom! > > I have to apologize for my lack of involvement in the Dialogue > list. I think that this interactive element to the quest is > essential and one of the missing pieces in our current attempt to > uncover truth. Iron sharpens Iron and as my friend and sister Sherry > Cole often reminds me, ?the trying of your faith is precious!? > > I think that it goes without saying that there exists in our day > something quite unique beginning to happen. I see that we are > entering an awakening of sorts in which lies, vanity and things > wherein there is no profit are being revealed. I have learned more > from a healthy challenge of long established beliefs in the past two > decades than from all of my days of sitting in the pews of various > churches signing on to the status quo. For me there is NO turning > back. I am on a mission to find and preach the truth. In so doing, > I will be met with all sorts of opposition, of that I am sure. I am > up to the challenge and look forward to it! Each of you will be as > well. Notice please that most often; the ones that put up the > strongest opposition to your search are those who do not seek for > themselves. They shut up the doors to the kingdom of heaven ? they > will not enter nor will they allow any of you to enter. They circle > the globe to make one convert and when they have made them, they > make them twice the son of hell that they are! (Yeshua) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/ec3c5f99/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 09:42:06 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 09:42:06 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: <009901c84c87$c551fdc0$64012b0a@beeblbrox> References: <009901c84c87$c551fdc0$64012b0a@beeblbrox> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801010742g342abd46l7224987e305e3dee@mail.gmail.com> Ross, Thank you for sharing your inspirational journey with us. After a very rough couple of days, your words were just what I needed to hear this morning. Shalom to you and all, Kim On Jan 1, 2008 9:05 AM, Stephen & Sharon wrote: > Thanks for this, Ross. I agree with James, an inspirational read for > this day! (just what I needed) > > I can understand the concerns expressed re some of the associations, > specifically the Lost Tomb subject. Many of us are not in that 'loop', and > only know what we have seen via the media, etc. I am learning to > withhold judgement until after studying the issues more thoroughly. One > thing that has caused me to pause on that subject is the quality of the > insights and posts that James Tabor has produced for this list. Also, the > sincere quality of Ross' testimony and teachings cause me to want to trust > his judgement on these things, despite my own lack of information and > understanding. Truth will become apparant to us all, when we seek with all > our heart, with the willingness to give up anything false and counter to the > true Faith. > > Shalom to you all > Sharon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Nichols, Ross K. > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Cc:* kfaymontgomery at yahoo.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:30 AM > *Subject:* [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU,Lost > Tribes) > > Shalom! > > > > I have to apologize for my lack of involvement in the Dialogue list. I > think that this interactive element to the quest is essential and one of the > missing pieces in our current attempt to uncover truth. Iron sharpens Iron > and as my friend and sister Sherry Cole often reminds me, "the trying of > your faith is precious!" > > > > I think that it goes without saying that there exists in our day something > quite unique beginning to happen. I see that we are entering an awakening of > sorts in which *lies, vanity and things wherein there is no profit* are > being revealed. I have learned more from a healthy challenge of long > established beliefs in the past two decades than from all of my days of > sitting in the pews of various churches signing on to the status quo. For me > there is NO turning back. I am on a mission to find and preach the truth. > In so doing, I will be met with all sorts of opposition, of that I am sure. > I am up to the challenge and look forward to it! Each of you will be as > well. Notice please that most often; the ones that put up the strongest > opposition to your search are those who do not seek for themselves. They > shut up the doors to the kingdom of heaven ? they will not enter nor will > they allow any of you to enter. They circle the globe to make one convert > and when they have made them, they make them twice the son of hell that they > are! (Yeshua) > > > > I am driven to search by the very words of the Bible, with a certain > promise that I will find Yehovah if I search for Him with all of my heart > and all of my soul. Jesus of Nazareth reportedly said that few would find > this elusive way. It is indeed a narrow way, a less trodden path and the Way > has been overgrown for centuries by false teaching and tactics of fear. The > garden has been sown with weeds. > > > > Because of some of the posts recently, I know that I should take some time > and fill in some of the blanks for all of you and for those who are a bit > confused or concerned about some of my associations. This will likely be > long, but I think that it will help ease some of the concerns expressed in > some of the notes lately. It often helps people to see where you have been > in order to fully understand where you are going. I am giving a much > abbreviated version and so I will try and put this all into one email. > > > > I grew up in a "Christian" home. I made my first "confession of faith" on June > 6th, 1972 as a young boy. From what I remember I was very sincere. Church > was my life. I loved the Bible stories and often imagined the stories > happening before my eyes. All of my heroes were from the Bible. I would > pretend to be Samson, or David, or one of the other men of God. When I was > in kindergarten all the kids had to draw what they wanted to be when they > grew up. There were firemen, and police officers, soldiers and then there > was mine - proudly displayed in the hall of the school. A preacher with > bell bottom plaid pants! I still have that picture. My mother was so proud. > > > > We were in the church every time the doors opened. I think my mother > actually opened the doors. My mother and step dad (Dave) were very involved > and worked in various parts of ministry. They helped start a church in Texas > called BBT (Brazosport Baptist Temple). I remember the preacher very well. > His name was Clifton Jones. At one point we had a bus ministry and I > remember well how we went out and found some used school buses. My mother > and Dave painted them and each bus was decorated and dedicated to one of the > Peanuts characters (Snoopy, Charlie Brown, etc). We spent many days knocking > on doors and inviting kids to church. Every Sunday morning we would dispatch > the buses to bring the children into God's house. My mother developed a > system to encourage kids to come. She hand made orange vests for every child > that came a certain number of Sundays. Only God knows how many she made! One > could then earn various badges. I still remember going to the Christian > bookstore to buy pins and badges, pencils and other gifts. I cannot tell > you how the kids (me included) worked to earn these trinkets. As I recall, > each seat on the buses had a number painted on the back. When the last > child was picked up, mother would draw a number from a bucket. The one in > the winning seat won a silver dollar! All of this was such a wonderful time > of my life. My mother always read me stories from the Bible and taught me > the real test of what is right and wrong. If I ever wanted to know if > something was okay or not, she would ask me if I thought Jesus would approve > of me doing it. It was her belief that Jesus went everywhere with me and so > all I had to do was to think about that. Sort of kept me from watching > "dirty movies" (anything worse than G rating).....for many years. After all, > would Jesus approve of anything elseJ? I still ask the question of *what > would Jesus do*?...only with a bit more education now. Thanks Mother! > > > > Our life was regulated by my mother's walk with God. She has always been ( > *and still is*) a student of the things of God. When she found new truth, > she simply packed up and walked that way...and we followed. > > > > *Fast forward ? * > > > > In 1985 I entered active duty in the US Army. Bridget (my high school > girlfriend) and I were married in February 1986. I spent nearly seven years > on active duty. One day while walking through the barracks - and using a > bit of profanity in the halls (I found this to be an effective way to make > privates jumpJ.) As I approached the desk in the center of the hallway (*where > every 24 hours a new pair of soldiers were assigned CQ [**charge of > quarters**] duty*) a soldier looked at me and said the following: > > > > "*Sergeant, would you please refrain from using profanity*". > > > > This was all it took. I felt like a knife was stabbed into my heart. Long > story short, I ended up working all night with this soldier. He had just > transferred to our unit and was placed on duty. I went to the office of the > First Sergeant and was informed that I would be working on duty with this > new soldier. His name was Godwin...and I have always found this to be quite > interesting; *GOD WIN*. I can look back now and see that his comment made > me think and started the wheels turning inside of me. So, all that night, we > sat together at a desk. He read his Bible and I asked him a few questions. > The next morning I hurried home from work and woke Bridget up and told her > what had happened. I went alone that morning in uniform in search of a > church. I found an Assembly of God church, though I was looking for a > Baptist church. That morning I ran to the altar and re-dedicated my life to > God. It was in the winter and must have been very close to New Years as I > recall sitting at home reading my Bible for New Year's eve. Bridget and I > had a wonderful time in this church and were both very involved. She led > music as I recall. > > > > About this time, my mother had become associated with Joseph Good and > Hatikiva Ministries. It was in the late 80s. She was very excited about this > new found awareness of the "Jewish Roots of Christianity" and shared what > she was learning with me. She sent me a copy of a book entitled, "*Rosh > HaShanah and the Messianic Kingdom to Come*" by Joseph Good. I read this > book until it literally fell to pieces. I still have this book. It changed > my life. At the time, Joe and his congregation had a weekly study in Texas. > I was stationed in Fort Hood Texas. I drove there a couple of times and got > hooked on this Quest for a better understanding of the authentic Jesus and > formative Christianity. I began to study the feasts, wore out language > study tools (*Strong's, Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Brown Driver Briggs*) and > I read the Bible through from front to back several times over the next > year. What began to emerge was a faith that was far removed from the faith > that I grew up with. I could not get enough. Joe had another man there at > his ministry that made an impact on me. His name was Andy Garza. He had > been studying Hebrew and I was blown away at the things that he taught. I > could sit for hours and listen to him. I knew that I wanted to learn more. > Anything Jewish or in any way related to Hebrew thinking I devoured. He gave > me a few gifts on one of my visits: *Every Man's Talmud*, an *Encyclopedia > of Jewish Religion*, a copy of a treatise called, "*Restoring Abrahamic > Faith*" by someone named James D. Tabor and a copy of a lecture by the > same entitled, the *Five Fundamental Flaws of Evangelical Christianity*. > The treatise was missing a couple of pages, but it was incredible. It was > what my heart had sought. Here was the essence of Biblical Faith in less > than 40 pages. The footnotes were numerous, but the proof was enough for me > to realize that if one truly wanted to "follow Jesus" then he would look > more Jewish than Christian. My life began to change. I saw things from a > different perspective. I slowly began to adopt teachings that I had never > even considered. I changed my diet. I decided to follow the teachings of > Jesus in a real way. I wanted to know him in a real way, and not just say > that I believed in him. > > > > In late 1991 I felt an irresistible pull to leave the Army. I loved the > military and had been promoted and awarded and was on my way to sure stardom > in the service. I had just completed BNCOC (Basic Non Commissioned Officer > Course) and had won every award that they offered. I was the top graduate > of the school, I won the Association of the Army's Most Outstanding NCO, and > several other awards. When I returned to Fort Hood from the school I > completed several other courses and was inducted into the Sergeant Audie > Murphy Club. This is a big deal. All of this was going on and yet I could > not help but know that it was time to move on. I can look back now and say > for certain that I felt God calling me to leave the Army. In November we > took leave and I put a resume in at the local job service office. I asked > Andy Garza who was going to Israel to pray for direction for me. He informed > me that when he was in Israel, he would put a prayer in between the rocks of > the Temple's Western wall. To this day I do not know what he wrote on that > note, but I think it helped. On December 2nd, 1991 I began my drive to > Louisiana. Bridget and the three oldest had gone ahead of me. We have since > had three more! I had no idea what we would do for money, but I knew that > God was in control. This was before cell phones. I remember stopping at some > point to call Bridget. She said that I had received a note from the Job > Service and that I had an interview for a job at Georgia Pacific - a paper > mill close to our new home. We were so excited. The interview was scheduled > for December 4th. I never had a day off from work! I worked part time at a > gas station for a few weeks until I started the new job at GP. I have been > here ever since. > > > > My studies intensified. My job at GP was mindless. I operated some > equipment, but it was easy to keep it running. My workmate was a fellow > student of the Bible. We would spend 48 hours a week, most of it reading and > discussing the Bible. I met a few people that were also interested in Bible > Study and we began to meet at my house. For the most part I stuck with the > Bible though I did read a couple of books during this time. I read, "*Our > Father Abraham*" by Marvin Wilson and "*Will the Real Jesus Please Stand*" > by Vendyl Jones. > > > > Another employee that I worked with was an avid sportsman. He would often > tell me stories about hunting and fishing and I would tell him about God. We > were not at all interested in the same things. One day he made a deal with > me. He said that he would not talk huntin' and fishin' with me if I would > quit preaching to him. Furthermore, he said he would give me his > grandfather's number if I wanted to talk Bible. It seemed that his > grandfather was as nutty as I was according to himJ. He had even > translated his own copy of the NT since he didn't trust any translation. > *Now he had my attention*! As it turned out, his grandfather lived right > around the corner from me. Mr. Bordelon was in his 80s. I called him that > very day and excitedly told him how I had come to get his number. He invited > me over and I went that evening. When I arrived he quickly took me into his > study where he had a stack of spiral bound notebooks. I asked him what he > planned to do with them. He told me that God had promised that he would send > someone to type them. After a few minutes I told him that I would take on > the task. He asked me what I would charge him and I told him there would > not be any charge, but that I would have to "squeeze it in" with my busy > schedule. He agreed. It never crossed my mind that this might be a problem > since I did not know how to type! So with a promise to complete the task > and newly formed friendship I went home that night with the letters to the > church in Thessalonica. I read them that night and started to type them. > This process would take me a couple of years - five to be exact but perhaps > more on that later. > > > > I had read Vendyl's book and so I had a burning desire to learn Hebrew. I > called Vendyl's ministry and was shocked when he answered the phone. I told > him why I had called and he asked me where I lived. I told him that I lived > close to Baton Rouge Louisiana. I was surprised when he asked me if I was > familiar with a certain street. I was! My wife's grandparents lived on that > very street. He told me that a very good friend of his, named Johnny Powell > lived there and would be more than happy to teach me Hebrew. It must have > been 1992. I made the call and on my first off day, I drove to meet him. > When I arrived at the home I was invited in. Johnny quickly got down to > business. He had grown up Baptist, the son of a prominent preacher. He asked > me if I was willing to put aside all that I had learned no matter what the > consequences of that would be. I agreed. Would I be willing to give up > cherished beliefs if the Hebrew Bible proved them to be false? I agreed to > this as well. He made me feel somewhat better by reaffirming that I would be > learning to read the Bible that Jesus had read. I could not wait to get > started. He pointed to his bookshelf. On the shelf there were three Hebrew > Bibles (Tanak). They were beautiful. He let me take one down and I was > almost in tears as I held it in my hands and thumbed through its pages > looking at the strange but beautiful script. He then made me put it back and > said that I could not hold it again until I had passed all of the tests with > suitable proficiency. He then gave me a couple of books and sent me on my > way. We met weekly and would spend countless hours over the next couple of > years in deep discussions. In February of 1994 I had successfully passed all > of tests and so on a rainy cold night in Baton Rouge, in the study of my > teacher he handed me my own copy of the Bible in Hebrew. I could not hold > back the tears. Now I could know for myself. I no longer had to trust man. > I had graduated! Amidst an occasional thunder I sat speechless with the man > that had given the tools to "fish for myself". > > > > Meanwhile I was steady at work typing the NT of Mr. Bordelon. He and I > also talked often. This too proved to be an education. As soon as I would > turn over a book of the NT to its translator, he would double check my > typing for errors and give me back the marked up pages which I would fix in > my word processor. This seemed to go on endlessly, but I was continually > learning and the more I typed, the more I began to question some of my > former understandings. > > > > My home bible studies were fun. During this time I met Mark Loyd and > Dennis Hartner. They were both working for an energy company and having > heard of me, they showed up at my home one day. We spent hours talking and > by the end of the conversation agreed to meet more frequently. Sometimes > they would come to my home and sometimes I would meet them at one of theirs. > We became best of friends. Dennis and I would often argue, but it was all > for the cause of truth. One evening Dennis came by and asked me what I knew > about *Ephraim*. I told him that Ephraim was a son of Joseph, but further > than that was not sure what he was asking. He told me that he had become > convinced that there was something more that we had missed. He said that > understanding just who this Ephraim is would prove to be the key to > understanding the Biblical revelation. In an effort to prove him wrong I > stayed up all night reading every reference I could find. What I found was > that he was truly on to something. By the end of the night I was re-thinking > everything! When the sun came up the next day I was still awake. When the > mail arrived at about 10:30, an envelope addressed to me had come. The > returnee was named, Maurice Bartel. In the envelope were two drawings > concerning Biblical Ephraim. I still carry these in my bag. The artist meant > to show that the house of Israel, the lost tribes were known as Ephraim > and that this group made up the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel for whom > Yeshua had come. I was blown away! I quickly began to map this new > information with my studies from the previous night and felt that things > were beginning to fall into place. Had all of my studies brought me to a > realization that many of those who currently were "Christians" were in fact > descendants of the lost Israelites in a literal sense? After all, had not > Yeshua himself said that he "*came NOT but for the lost sheep of the house > of **Israel*"? (*Matthew 15:24; cf Jeremiah 50:6*). And what about the New > Covenant that was specifically promised to the House of Judah (the Jews) and > the House of Israel (lost) [*Jeremiah 31:31-34*]? Could there be something > here that had been hidden for centuries? All of my studies and my education > gained from typing the NT began to come into focus. Was there a reason for > all of this? > > > > A couple from Joe Good's congregation and friends of my mother (Roger and > Betty Givin) had called me this same week. Betty told me that they would be > coming through our town en route to her brother's house in North Carolina > and she asked if they could stop in. I told them that we would love to have > them and they agreed to spend the night. When she arrived I could not help > but show her all that I was learning. I will never forget her face as I > related this new found knowledge. Surely I had been granted special favor > and had been shown something that no one had ever seen. When I finally took > a breath, she said that she had something in her car that she had to show > me. When she returned she had in her hand a paper written on front and back > about the return of Israel. It was written by her brother. I learned at that > moment that her brother was none other than James Tabor! What a small > world! I never knew this though I had known Roger and Betty for years. She > asked me to make a cassette tape of what I had just told her so that she > could take it to him when she went to visit. I was nervous. What in the > world would I say? Why would a distinguished scholar take the time to listen > to some "nobody" stumble through some Bible verses on a cassette? I stayed > up most of the night hitting the record button....talking for a few minutes > and then erasing and starting over. The only way I can explain what I felt > was that it would be like a young seminary student making a tape for Billy > Graham. Nevertheless I made the tape and the next day Roger and Betty set > off with the cargo. > > > > Within a few days, late one night while in my study (a small crowded room > adjoined to my laundry room) the phone rang. I ran to pick it up so that the > kids and Bridget would not wake up. I immediately recognized the voice. It > was Dr. Tabor! I could not believe it. He was very complimentary of the > tape and asked me questions about how I came to this. I told him and I > remember how wonderful it felt that Professor Tabor would take the time and > show interest in me. It changed my life. > > > > Back then I had a 2400 baud modem. Every day I was always checking for > email. They came all the time. At work I would get faxes and Tabor and I > sent hundreds back and forth. It would prove to be one of the best times of > my life. We became very close and in June of 1995 I met him face to face at > Roger and Betty's home in Texas. We studied all night together (Isaiah > 40-66). > > > > Over the next several years, we continued in almost daily communication > via fax, email and phone. Tabor had come across a Jewish organization (UIWU) > that believed in the Hebrew Bible alone and in the restoration of all of > Israel which by now we knew was the single most important point of Biblical > teaching. This reunion, we had become convinced, would lead to the blessings > of all nations and the realization of the Kingdom of God on earth. While > Tabor and I were convinced that most of the "lost sheep" were in various > forms of Christianity, David Horowitz was Jewish. James became very close > with David. I read his book 33 Candles and this led to an in-depth study of > the "Bible in the Hands of Its Creators" called by us the Blue Book. James > would join up with David in the UIWU and in many ways brought new life to > the organization. Most of its members had simply died off. Over the next > several years we would wrestle with whether or not to start something new or > build upon the original ideas espoused by David Horowitz. While we certainly > did not agree with everything that had led to the founding of UIWU (some of > the past was quite colorful), we found its charter to be amazing and fitting > for any organization whose goal was to restore Torah Faith and bring about a > restoration of the two houses. There were many other involved in this, but I > can give more details later perhaps. > > > > In 1995, I went to Charlotte to be ordained as a Bible Teacher through the > United Israel World Union along with two others; Ronnie Fulcher and Timothy > Thompson. This event took place on the 24th of Kislev. Upon leaving that > ceremony, I felt like I had been charged to go forth with a message, but > alas I was a messenger without a congregation. I felt that in some way I > needed to reach the group that was beginning to make the journey home. I > still feel that this is my task. Not that I see myself as anyone important > in the grand scheme of things, but as David Horowitz once said, I am a > soldier sworn to a cause. > > > > I felt that I needed to formulate a set of beliefs that would allow me to > continue to study and yet somehow connect with my roots. In one evening I > typed out the following: > *What do I believe?* > > I put my faith in the God of Jesus ? commonly referred to as "the LORD", > but known by the designation YHWH in the Hebrew Bible, and referred to by > Jesus of Nazareth in the New Testament by the Aramaic term Abba / father. > This God is one, and beside him there is no other, neither in heaven nor on > earth. He is the Ancient of Days, El Shaddai, the God of Abraham, Isaac and > Jacob. > > I put my faith in the Bible that Jesus read ? commonly referred to as the > "Old Testament", but strictly and properly referred to as the Hebrew Bible > or TaNaK, an acronym formed by the first letters of three Hebrew words used > to designate the three main parts of the Hebrew Bible (Torah ? Law, Neviim ? > the Prophets and Ketuvim ? the Writings). > > I put my faith in the authentic teachings and mission of Jesus ? to bring > about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, to seek and save the > lost sheep of the house of Israel (hitherto unaware of their true identity), > and to do and teach the Torah of YHWH. > > What can I say? I am the composite of my experiences. I was raised by a > God fearing woman who follows her heart and desires to be a servant of God. > I was blessed with good teachers and teaching; my mother, my Granny > (mother's mother), Joe Good, Andy Garza, Johnny Powell, James Tabor and > many many more. I have learned the most when my cherished beliefs were put > in the scales and weighed against the Biblical revelation. I am proud to be > friends with those from whom I have learned. I have learned a lot, but still > have much to learn. As long as Yehovah lets me breath I will continue to > learn. I am still willing to throw everything away for the truth. My > journey, though much abbreviated here is only beginning. I hope that those > of you who are going through some troublesome times and a questioning of > your faith would make the same commitment. This is not a request for you to > follow *me*, but to follow God *WITH* me. Let's learn together. We will > certainly have to rethink things as we go, and this includes James Tabor. He > knows this and is willing to make the journey. He has spent his life thus > far rethinking and re-evaluating. If I know him, and I think I do, he will > live out his days on the quest. No matter what scholars discover through > linguistic studies or with the spade I am willing to adapt. I want the > truth and only the truth! > > > > To quote an ancient Prayer: > > > *Ancient Prayer > *From the cowardice that shrinks from new truths, > >From the laziness that is content with half-truths, > >From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, > O God of truth, deliver us. > > > > There are many others out there that I could name which have contributed > and continue to contribute to my learning that I did not mention in this > brief note. I hope that you are not offended. I often learn from my > students and am always looking for such opportunities. > > > > I could not fail to mention that I have spent more time with Brian Jones > talking of these matters than all others put together I would suppose. He is > the one who encouraged me to take things to the level that many of you are > familiar with now. He has made the synagogue without walls possible. All of > my learning goes nowhere if I cannot reach the masses. He has made this > possible. > > > > Hanoch is a valued friend. He and I have often talked of reaching out and > now we have a way to do this. Ralph and Becky Buntyn are some of my closest > friends. They too have been most encouraging. Their collective experiences > and wisdom have helped me in more ways than I can say. Dennis Jones is and > has been a good companion along the way. JDavid Davis has been a close > friend for many years. > > > > Of course all of my dear friends at Temple Sinai are more than brothers > and sisters. They are friends and I have learned a great deal from them. > They are family. This new family also includes those of you who live > elsewhere. > > > > This path is not easy. The easy path is the one from which you came. If > you seek a smooth way, then turn around and go back. I hope however that > you will choose the road less traveled. It leads to life. The promise is to > those that seek. Those that are not sick do not need a physician. I am here > to help the sick. I seek this healing and restoration for me as well as for > all of you. Will you join me? > > > > Consider this closely: I am and will continue to be associated with James > Tabor. He is one of my closest friends on the planet and probably will be my > whole life long. I believe in what the UIWU stands for and find it to be in > line with the Biblical revelation. There is nothing to join here. You are > free to leave. There is no hidden agenda. We may not always agree on all > points. Tabor and I certainly do not agree on everything, but we still love > and respect one another. I want to have that relationship with all of you. > Who is in? > > > > I am honored that Joseph Good came to me to study the tribes. He is a > gifted teacher of the Bible and has led many to Torah Faith. I look forward > to many fruitful years working with the giants of the faith. I consider all > of you to be teachers, even if you are not yet teaching. I began as a > student of Joe and James. I still learn from them. Those of you that have > learned from me have learned from them because I learned from them. A > student is not above his teacher. It is enough that a student be like his > teacher. I hope that I can attain that worthy goal. I hope that you can > attain the same. Now let's dialogue! > > > > This note was sent to the dialogue list and copied to my mother on the 1stday of 2008 ? the 23 > rd of Tevet 5768. > > > > Shalom, Ross > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/4b57e15e/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 10:03:45 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:03:45 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] World leader contacts ??? Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801010803r6c48f380p558bb8d76882c2f8@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, A while back I promised to post contact information for world leaders. I found some information on the internet fairly quickly, but wanted to verify first before I shared it. I have decided to go ahead and post what I've found and whoever is interested can verify the contacts that they need. I apologize for not taking care of this, but I simply have too much on my shoulders right now. Here are the links: the cia - https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/world-leaders-1/index.html the pages on the Temple Institute site - http://www.templeinstitute.org/antiquities/antiquities_law.htm#faxes http://www.templeinstitute.org/contact-info.htm I have also attached a word document with addresses I copied off a website that I can no longer find. Shalom to all (how do I say the "to all" in Hebrew?) Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/73d594f1/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Email Addresses of World Leaders.doc Type: application/msword Size: 32256 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/73d594f1/attachment.doc From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 1 10:06:24 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 11:06:24 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream In-Reply-To: <981347.99787.qm@web58309.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <981347.99787.qm@web58309.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA1AA764952FC0-80C-1501@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Hi Vickie - ?? Welcome!? Hope to see you posting regularly!? In terms of dream interpretation - sorry, I'm lost trying to figure out my own dreams.? I am, however, somewhat of a Gefilte Fish 'expert' (LOL), and have never seen it with live fish in it? :-) ???Sorry that I can't be more helpful... ?? Best regards, and once again, welcome, ???????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Vickie Pilkerton To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:08 am Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream Hello All, ? This is my first posting to "Dailogue". I am trying to understand a dream that I had and hope maybe someone has some insight. My husband and I are new (1 year) to study and the following of Torah. So much to learn, but are loving every step! ? In my dream I am sitting at the head of?a large round table meeting with?6 people, none of whom I know personally. They are heads of religious, political and legal organizations. ? The meeting is lengthy and at lunch time we stop to eat. I have catered a meal for everyone present. Servers bring out a plate full of food, but on it is included a large, live, light-blue, transparent, "jelly" like fish. In each fish can be seen 1-3 more, smaller, live fish. Most at the table do not want to eat it, so I place them all in a large?bowl. The bowl cannot contain all of them and they are jumping out of the top of the bowl because of overflow. ? Shortly after lunch is over, my husband and a friend (who is a supporter/teacher) join us for the meeting and they take over the proceedings. ? ~The End~ ? ? Today I find out that there is a traditional Jewish meal often served for Shabbat which consist of a Gefilte fish (Yiddish: ???????? ????) . Which are poached fish patties or balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, most carp (common carp). They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. In traditional recipes for gefilte fish, the fish is first deboned, often while still at the market. Next, the fish is ground into a paste along with eggs, onions and flour meal or matzoh meal and then stuffed back into the skin of the deboned fish, giving it the name gefilte (filled or stuffed). ? Doe's anyone see any connection or meaning in this kind of fish to my dream? ? Thanks! Lou ? ? I Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/fca05862/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 1 10:12:16 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 11:12:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA1AA8367A971C-80C-152B@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Hey pal - ?? Amazing....absolutely amazing....whom you've met, and when.? I am starting to truly believe that there are no such things as "coincidences" - it's all 'Min HaShamayim' - 'from the Heavens.'? It is so clear that HaShem pulls certain people together at a 'certain' time.? So much to talk about Ross...so much, and you're right - now via the Internet we have those options.? So, let's do it! ??? B'Ahava, ????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Nichols, Ross K. To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Cc: kfaymontgomery at yahoo.com Sent: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 5:30 am Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) Shalom! ? I have to apologize for my lack of involvement in the Dialogue list.? I think that this interactive element to the quest is essential and one of the missing pieces in our current attempt to uncover truth. Iron sharpens Iron and as my friend and sister Sherry Cole often reminds me, ?the trying of your faith is precious!? ? I think that it goes without saying that there exists in our day something quite unique beginning to happen. I see that we are entering an awakening of sorts in which lies, vanity and things wherein there is no profit are being revealed. I have learned more from a healthy challenge of long established beliefs in the past two decades than from all of my days of sitting in the pews of various churches signing on to the status quo. For me there is NO turning back.? I am on a mission to find and preach the truth. In so doing, I will be met with all sorts of opposition, of that I am sure. I am up to the challenge and look forward to it! Each of you will be as well. Notice please that most often; the ones that put up the strongest opposition to your search are those who do not seek for themselves. They shut up the doors to the kingdom of heaven ? they will not enter nor will they allow any of you to enter. They circle the globe to make one convert and when they have made them, they make them twice the son of hell that they are!? (Yeshua) ? I am driven to search by the very words of the Bible, with a certain promise that I will find Yehovah if I search for Him with all of my heart and all of my soul. Jesus of Nazareth reportedly said that few would find this elusive way. It is indeed a narrow way, a less trodden path and the Way has been overgrown for centuries by false teaching and tactics of fear.? The garden has been sown with weeds. ? Because of some of the posts recently, I know that I should take some time and fill in some of the blanks for all of you and for those who are a bit confused or concerned about some of my associations.? This will likely be long, but I think that it will help ease some of the concerns expressed in some of the notes lately.? It often helps people to see where you have been in order to fully understand where you are going. I am giving a much abbreviated version and so I will try and put this all into one email. ? I grew up in a "Christian" home. I made my first "confession of faith" on June 6th, 1972 as a young boy. From what I remember I was very sincere. Church was my life. I loved the Bible stories and often imagined the stories happening before my eyes. All of my heroes were from the Bible. I would pretend to be Samson, or David, or one of the other men of God. When I was in kindergarten all the kids had to draw what they wanted to be when they grew up.? There were firemen, and police officers, soldiers and then there was mine - proudly displayed in the hall of the school.? A preacher with bell bottom plaid pants!? I still have that picture. My mother was so proud. ? We were in the church every time the doors opened. I think my mother actually opened the doors. My mother and step dad (Dave) were very involved and worked in various parts of ministry.? They helped start a church in Texas called BBT (Brazosport Baptist Temple). I remember the preacher very well. His name was Clifton Jones. At one point we had a bus ministry and I remember well how we went out and found some used school buses. My mother and Dave painted them and each bus was decorated and dedicated to one of the Peanuts characters (Snoopy, Charlie Brown, etc). We spent many days knocking on doors and inviting kids to church. Every Sunday morning we would dispatch the buses to bring the children into God's house.? My mother developed a system to encourage kids to come. She hand made orange vests for every child that came a certain number of Sundays. Only God knows how many she made! One could then earn various badges. I still remember going to the Christian bookstore to buy pins and badges, pencils and other gifts.? I cannot tell you how the kids (me included) worked to earn these trinkets.? As I recall, each seat on the buses had a number painted on the back.? When the last child was picked up, mother would draw a number from a bucket.? The one in the winning seat won a silver dollar!? All of this was such a wonderful time of my life. My mother always read me stories from the Bible and taught me the real test of what is right and wrong. If I ever wanted to know if something was okay or not, she would ask me if I thought Jesus would approve of me doing it. It was her belief that Jesus went everywhere with me and so all I had to do was to think about that.? Sort of kept me from watching "dirty movies" (anything worse than G rating).....for many years. After all, would Jesus approve of anything elseJ? I still ask the question of what would Jesus do?...only with a bit more education now.? Thanks Mother! ? Our life was regulated by my mother's walk with God. She has always been (and still is) a student of the things of God. When she found new truth, she simply packed up and walked that way...and we followed. ? Fast forward ? ? In 1985 I entered active duty in the US Army. Bridget (my high school girlfriend) and I were married in February 1986.? I spent nearly seven years on active duty.? One day while walking through the barracks - and using a bit of profanity in the halls (I found this to be an effective way to make privates jumpJ.) As I approached the desk in the center of the hallway (where every 24 hours a new pair of soldiers were assigned CQ [charge of quarters] duty) a soldier looked at me and said the following: ? "Sergeant, would you please refrain from using profanity". ? This was all it took.? I felt like a knife was stabbed into my heart. Long story short, I ended up working all night with this soldier. He had just transferred to our unit and was placed on duty. I went to the office of the First Sergeant and was informed that I would be working on duty with this new soldier. His name was Godwin...and I have always found this to be quite interesting; GOD WIN. I can look back now and see that his comment made me think and started the wheels turning inside of me. So, all that night, we sat together at a desk. He read his Bible and I asked him a few questions. The next morning I hurried home from work and woke Bridget up and told her what had happened. I went alone that morning in uniform in search of a church.? I found an Assembly of God church, though I was looking for a Baptist church.? That morning I ran to the altar and re-dedicated my life to God.? It was in the winter and must have been very close to New Years as I recall sitting at home reading my Bible for New Year?s eve. Bridget and I had a wonderful time in this church and were both very involved. She led music as I recall. ? About this time, my mother had become associated with Joseph Good and Hatikiva Ministries. It was in the late 80s. She was very excited about this new found awareness of the "Jewish Roots of Christianity" and shared what she was learning with me.? She sent me a copy of a book entitled, "Rosh HaShanah and the Messianic Kingdom to Come" by Joseph Good. I read this book until it literally fell to pieces. I still have this book. It changed my life. At the time, Joe and his congregation had a weekly study in Texas. I was stationed in Fort Hood Texas. I drove there a couple of times and got hooked on this Quest for a better understanding of the authentic Jesus and formative Christianity.? I began to study the feasts, wore out language study tools (Strong's, Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Brown Driver Briggs) and I read the Bible through from front to back several times over the next year.? What began to emerge was a faith that was far removed from the faith that I grew up with. I could not get enough. Joe had another man there at his ministry that made an impact on me.? His name was Andy Garza. He had been studying Hebrew and I was blown away at the things that he taught.? I could sit for hours and listen to him.? I knew that I wanted to learn more.? Anything Jewish or in any way related to Hebrew thinking I devoured. He gave me a few gifts on one of my visits: Every Man's Talmud, an Encyclopedia of Jewish Religion, a copy of a treatise called, "Restoring Abrahamic Faith" by someone named James D. Tabor and a copy of a lecture by the same entitled, the Five Fundamental Flaws of Evangelical Christianity.? The treatise was missing a couple of pages, but it was incredible.? It was what my heart had sought. Here was the essence of Biblical Faith in less than 40 pages.? The footnotes were numerous, but the proof was enough for me to realize that if one truly wanted to "follow Jesus" then he would look more Jewish than Christian.? My life began to change.? I saw things from a different perspective. I slowly began to adopt teachings that I had never even considered. I changed my diet. I decided to follow the teachings of Jesus in a real way. I wanted to know him in a real way, and not just say that I believed in him. ? In late 1991 I felt an irresistible pull to leave the Army. I loved the military and had been promoted and awarded and was on my way to sure stardom in the service. I had just completed BNCOC (Basic Non Commissioned Officer Course) and had won every award that they offered.? I was the top graduate of the school, I won the Association of the Army's Most Outstanding NCO, and several other awards. When I returned to Fort Hood from the school I completed several other courses and was inducted into the Sergeant Audie Murphy Club.? This is a big deal.? All of this was going on and yet I could not help but know that it was time to move on.? I can look back now and say for certain that I felt God calling me to leave the Army. In November we took leave and I put a resume in at the local job service office.? I asked Andy Garza who was going to Israel to pray for direction for me. He informed me that when he was in Israel, he would put a prayer in between the rocks of the Temple?s Western wall. To this day I do not know what he wrote on that note, but I think it helped. On December 2nd, 1991 I began my drive to Louisiana. Bridget and the three oldest had gone ahead of me. We have since had three more! I had no idea what we would do for money, but I knew that God was in control. This was before cell phones. I remember stopping at some point to call Bridget. She said that I had received a note from the Job Service and that I had an interview for a job at Georgia Pacific - a paper mill close to our new home. We were so excited.? The interview was scheduled for December 4th.? I never had a day off from work!? I worked part time at a gas station for a few weeks until I started the new job at GP. I have been here ever since. ? My studies intensified. My job at GP was mindless.? I operated some equipment, but it was easy to keep it running.? My workmate was a fellow student of the Bible. We would spend 48 hours a week, most of it reading and discussing the Bible. I met a few people that were also interested in Bible Study and we began to meet at my house. For the most part I stuck with the Bible though I did read a couple of books during this time. I read, "Our Father Abraham" by Marvin Wilson and "Will the Real Jesus Please Stand" by Vendyl Jones. ? Another employee that I worked with was an avid sportsman. He would often tell me stories about hunting and fishing and I would tell him about God. We were not at all interested in the same things. One day he made a deal with me. He said that he would not talk huntin' and fishin' with me if I would quit preaching to him.? Furthermore, he said he would give me his grandfather's number if I wanted to talk Bible. It seemed that his grandfather was as nutty as I was according to himJ.? He had even translated his own copy of the NT since he didn't trust any translation.? Now he had my attention!? As it turned out, his grandfather lived right around the corner from me.? Mr. Bordelon was in his 80s. I called him that very day and excitedly told him how I had come to get his number. He invited me over and I went that evening. When I arrived he quickly took me into his study where he had a stack of spiral bound notebooks.? I asked him what he planned to do with them. He told me that God had promised that he would send someone to type them.? After a few minutes I told him that I would take on the task.? He asked me what I would charge him and I told him there would not be any charge, but that I would have to ?squeeze it in? with my busy schedule. He agreed. It never crossed my mind that this might be a problem since I did not know how to type!? So with a promise to complete the task and newly formed friendship I went home that night with the letters to the church in Thessalonica.? I read them that night and started to type them. This process would take me a couple of years - five to be exact but perhaps more on that later. ? I had read Vendyl's book and so I had a burning desire to learn Hebrew.? I called Vendyl's ministry and was shocked when he answered the phone. I told him why I had called and he asked me where I lived. I told him that I lived close to Baton Rouge Louisiana. I was surprised when he asked me if I was familiar with a certain street. I was! My wife's grandparents lived on that very street. He told me that a very good friend of his, named Johnny Powell lived there and would be more than happy to teach me Hebrew. It must have been 1992. I made the call and on my first off day, I drove to meet him. When I arrived at the home I was invited in. Johnny quickly got down to business. He had grown up Baptist, the son of a prominent preacher. He asked me if I was willing to put aside all that I had learned no matter what the consequences of that would be. I agreed. Would I be willing to give up cherished beliefs if the Hebrew Bible proved them to be false? I agreed to this as well. He made me feel somewhat better by reaffirming that I would be learning to read the Bible that Jesus had read.? I could not wait to get started. He pointed to his bookshelf. On the shelf there were three Hebrew Bibles (Tanak).? They were beautiful. He let me take one down and I was almost in tears as I held it in my hands and thumbed through its pages looking at the strange but beautiful script. He then made me put it back and said that I could not hold it again until I had passed all of the tests with suitable proficiency. He then gave me a couple of books and sent me on my way. We met weekly and would spend countless hours over the next couple of years in deep discussions. In February of 1994 I had successfully passed all of tests and so on a rainy cold night in Baton Rouge, in the study of my teacher he handed me my own copy of the Bible in Hebrew.? I could not hold back the tears.? Now I could know for myself.? I no longer had to trust man. I had graduated!? Amidst an occasional thunder I sat speechless with the man that had given the tools to "fish for myself". ? Meanwhile I was steady at work typing the NT of Mr. Bordelon. He and I also talked often.? This too proved to be an education.? As soon as I would turn over a book of the NT to its translator, he would double check my typing for errors and give me back the marked up pages which I would fix in my word processor.? This seemed to go on endlessly, but I was continually learning and the more I typed, the more I began to question some of my former understandings. ? My home bible studies were fun. During this time I met Mark Loyd and Dennis Hartner. They were both working for an energy company and having heard of me, they showed up at my home one day. We spent hours talking and by the end of the conversation agreed to meet more frequently. Sometimes they would come to my home and sometimes I would meet them at one of theirs. We became best of friends. Dennis and I would often argue, but it was all for the cause of truth. One evening Dennis came by and asked me what I knew about Ephraim. I told him that Ephraim was a son of Joseph, but further than that was not sure what he was asking. He told me that he had become convinced that there was something more that we had missed. He said that understanding just who this Ephraim is would prove to be the key to understanding the Biblical revelation. In an effort to prove him wrong I stayed up all night reading every reference I could find. What I found was that he was truly on to something. By the end of the night I was re-thinking everything! When the sun came up the next day I was still awake. When the mail arrived at about 10:30, an envelope addressed to me had come. The returnee was named, Maurice Bartel.? In the envelope were two drawings concerning Biblical Ephraim. I still carry these in my bag. The artist meant to show that the house of Israel, the lost tribes were known as Ephraim and that this group made up the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel for whom Yeshua had come. I was blown away! I quickly began to map this new information with my studies from the previous night and felt that things were beginning to fall into place. Had all of my studies brought me to a realization that many of those who currently were "Christians" were in fact descendants of the lost Israelites in a literal sense?? After all, had not Yeshua himself said that he "came NOT but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel"? (Matthew 15:24; cf Jeremiah 50:6). And what about the New Covenant that was specifically promised to the House of Judah (the Jews) and the House of Israel (lost) [Jeremiah 31:31-34]? Could there be something here that had been hidden for centuries? All of my studies and my education gained from typing the NT began to come into focus.? Was there a reason for all of this? ? A couple from Joe Good's congregation and friends of my mother (Roger and Betty Givin) had called me this same week. Betty told me that they would be coming through our town en route to her brother's house in North Carolina and she asked if they could stop in. I told them that we would love to have them and they agreed to spend the night. When she arrived I could not help but show her all that I was learning. I will never forget her face as I related this new found knowledge. Surely I had been granted special favor and had been shown something that no one had ever seen. When I finally took a breath, she said that she had something in her car that she had to show me. When she returned she had in her hand a paper written on front and back about the return of Israel. It was written by her brother. I learned at that moment that her brother was none other than James Tabor!? What a small world! I never knew this though I had known Roger and Betty for years. She asked me to make a cassette tape of what I had just told her so that she could take it to him when she went to visit. I was nervous. What in the world would I say? Why would a distinguished scholar take the time to listen to some "nobody" stumble through some Bible verses on a cassette?? I stayed up most of the night hitting the record button....talking for a few minutes and then erasing and starting over. The only way I can explain what I felt was that it would be like a young seminary student making a tape for Billy Graham. Nevertheless I made the tape and the next day Roger and Betty set off with the cargo. ? Within a few days, late one night while in my study (a small crowded room adjoined to my laundry room) the phone rang. I ran to pick it up so that the kids and Bridget would not wake up. I immediately recognized the voice. It was Dr. Tabor!? I could not believe it. He was very complimentary of the tape and asked me questions about how I came to this. I told him and I remember how wonderful it felt that Professor Tabor would take the time and show interest in me. It changed my life. ? Back then I had a 2400 baud modem. Every day I was always checking for email.? They came all the time. At work I would get faxes and Tabor and I sent hundreds back and forth. It would prove to be one of the best times of my life. We became very close and in June of 1995 I met him face to face at Roger and Betty's home in Texas. We studied all night together (Isaiah 40-66). ? Over the next several years, we continued in almost daily communication via fax, email and phone. Tabor had come across a Jewish organization (UIWU) that believed in the Hebrew Bible alone and in the restoration of all of Israel which by now we knew was the single most important point of Biblical teaching. This reunion, we had become convinced, would lead to the blessings of all nations and the realization of the Kingdom of God on earth. While Tabor and I were convinced that most of the "lost sheep" were in various forms of Christianity, David Horowitz was Jewish. James became very close with David. I read his book 33 Candles and this led to an in-depth study of the "Bible in the Hands of Its Creators" called by us the Blue Book. James would join up with David in the UIWU and in many ways brought new life to the organization. Most of its members had simply died off. Over the next several years we would wrestle with whether or not to start something new or build upon the original ideas espoused by David Horowitz. While we certainly did not agree with everything that had led to the founding of UIWU (some of the past was quite colorful), we found its charter to be amazing and fitting for any organization whose goal was to restore Torah Faith and bring about a restoration of the two houses. There were many other involved in this, but I can give more details later perhaps. ? In 1995, I went to Charlotte to be ordained as a Bible Teacher through the United Israel World Union along with two others; Ronnie Fulcher and Timothy Thompson. This event took place on the 24th of Kislev. Upon leaving that ceremony, I felt like I had been charged to go forth with a message, but alas I was a messenger without a congregation. I felt that in some way I needed to reach the group that was beginning to make the journey home. I still feel that this is my task. Not that I see myself as anyone important in the grand scheme of things, but as David Horowitz once said, I am a soldier sworn to a cause. ? I felt that I needed to formulate a set of beliefs that would allow me to continue to study and yet somehow connect with my roots. In one evening I typed out the following: What do I believe? I put my faith in the God of Jesus ? commonly referred to as ?the LORD?, but known by the designation YHWH in the Hebrew Bible, and referred to by Jesus of Nazareth in the New Testament by the Aramaic term Abba / father. This God is one, and beside him there is no other, neither in heaven nor on earth. He is the Ancient of Days, El Shaddai, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I put my faith in the Bible that Jesus read ? commonly referred to as the ?Old Testament?, but strictly and properly referred to as the Hebrew Bible or TaNaK, an acronym formed by the first letters of three Hebrew words used to designate the three main parts of the Hebrew Bible (Torah ? Law, Neviim ? the Prophets and Ketuvim ? the Writings). I put my faith in the authentic teachings and mission of Jesus ? to bring about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, to seek and save the lost sheep of the house of Israel (hitherto unaware of their true identity), and to do and teach the Torah of YHWH. What can I say? I am the composite of my experiences. I was raised by a God fearing woman who follows her heart and desires to be a servant of God. I was blessed with good teachers and teaching; my mother, my Granny (mother?s mother), Joe Good, Andy Garza, Johnny Powell, James Tabor and many many more. I have learned the most when my cherished beliefs were put in the scales and weighed against the Biblical revelation.? I am proud to be friends with those from whom I have learned. I have learned a lot, but still have much to learn. As long as Yehovah lets me breath I will continue to learn. I am still willing to throw everything away for the truth. My journey, though much abbreviated here is only beginning. I hope that those of you who are going through some troublesome times and a questioning of your faith would make the same commitment. This is not a request for you to follow me, but to follow God WITH me. Let's learn together. We will certainly have to rethink things as we go, and this includes James Tabor. He knows this and is willing to make the journey. He has spent his life thus far rethinking and re-evaluating. If I know him, and I think I do, he will live out his days on the quest. No matter what scholars discover through linguistic studies or with the spade I am willing to adapt.? I want the truth and only the truth! ? To quote an ancient Prayer: ? Ancient Prayer >From the cowardice that shrinks from new truths, >From the laziness that is content with half-truths, >From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, O God of truth, deliver us. ? There are many others out there that I could name which have contributed and continue to contribute to my learning that I did not mention in this brief note.? I hope that you are not offended. I often learn from my students and am always looking for such opportunities. ? I could not fail to mention that I have spent more time with Brian Jones talking of these matters than all others put together I would suppose. He is the one who encouraged me to take things to the level that many of you are familiar with now. He has made the synagogue without walls possible. All of my learning goes nowhere if I cannot reach the masses. He has made this possible. ? Hanoch is a valued friend. He and I have often talked of reaching out and now we have a way to do this. Ralph and Becky Buntyn are some of my closest friends. They too have been most encouraging. Their collective experiences and wisdom have helped me in more ways than I can say. Dennis Jones is and has been a good companion along the way. JDavid Davis has been a close friend for many years. ? Of course all of my dear friends at Temple Sinai are more than brothers and sisters.? They are friends and I have learned a great deal from them. They are family. This new family also includes those of you who live elsewhere. ? This path is not easy.? The easy path is the one from which you came. If you seek a smooth way, then turn around and go back.? I hope however that you will choose the road less traveled. It leads to life.? The promise is to those that seek. Those that are not sick do not need a physician. I am here to help the sick. I seek this healing and restoration for me as well as for all of you. Will you join me?? ? Consider this closely: I am and will continue to be associated with James Tabor. He is one of my closest friends on the planet and probably will be my whole life long. I believe in what the UIWU stands for and find it to be in line with the Biblical revelation.? There is nothing to join here. You are free to leave.? There is no hidden agenda. We may not always agree on all points. Tabor and I certainly do not agree on everything, but we still love and respect one another. I want to have that relationship with all of you. Who is in? ? I am honored that Joseph Good came to me to study the tribes. He is a gifted teacher of the Bible and has led many to Torah Faith. I look forward to many fruitful years working with the giants of the faith. I consider all of you to be teachers, even if you are not yet teaching. I began as a student of Joe and James. I still learn from them.? Those of you that have learned from me have learned from them because I learned from them. A student is not above his teacher. It is enough that a student be like his teacher. I hope that I can attain that worthy goal. I hope that you can attain the same. Now let's dialogue! ? This note was sent to the dialogue list and copied to my mother on the 1st day of 2008 ? the 23rd of Tevet 5768. ? Shalom, Ross ? ? _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/153902e6/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Tue Jan 1 10:15:36 2008 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:15:36 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] HYN In-Reply-To: <010120080642.310.4779E0BF00036B5D0000013622218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <010120080642.310.4779E0BF00036B5D0000013622218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <5173EDAB62B1427AAE8F385F14838692@Akai> Happy New Year, John and Carin. Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: Dialogue Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:42 AM Subject: [Dialogue] HYN Happy New Year All. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/c8b5baee/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Tue Jan 1 10:22:37 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 08:22:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) Message-ID: <168640.78641.qm@web57109.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dearest Ross, I am so glad that you took the time to send out the email that as you say will "fill in some of the blanks for all of you and for those who are a bit confused or concerned about some of my associations". I have been with this dialogue since the beginning and I for one know that it was HaShem who led me here. Through a conversation that I had with Debbie Good, I learned about you and your live broadcasts. It came at a time that I was so in need of fellowship that I know that it truly came at the hands of HaShem. Through this dialogue, I have made some very important connections. I have formed friendships with people from Texas, Georgia, Louisiana and even New York. These are relationships that I would not have made had it not been for this dialogue. I can talk with people like Betty, Pat, Hanoch and others about things that I have discovered or ask them questions about things that I simply don't understand. We are coming together knowing that we are all at different places in our "Walk", but confident that we all love HaShem and that we can discuss anything with each other. I just want to "thank you" for all that you are doing and I want to encourage you to carry on as HaShem leads you. I would also like to say how much respect I have for James Tabor and all that he has done and continues to do. I feel very honored that a professional such as him takes the time to dialogue with someone like me. Shalom, Tammy Croley ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/e98b8aac/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 10:47:05 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:47:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d04e0430801010847o60cafad0ma945c3afa26f8d18@mail.gmail.com> Ross, Thank you for taking the time to bring those of us out here removed from actual relationships with roots of faith folks, up to date on your personal story. It is very moving to say the least. Rest assured that it was not time wasted. Now we can hear you within the framework of YOUR journey. Your have become very respected in our small group of God fearers. Your teaching has been very stimulating and effectual in helping us take up the responsibility of searching for God on our own. We obviously have been moving in that direction as we have left the church and started this journey together a year ago. But your humble teaching style has drawn us into the Roots of Faith family. That's not to say that we are totally comfortable with everything we hear. I am the only one in our group who has chosen to be a part of this dialogue. But I do bring back to the group many of the discussions and ideas for us to discuss together as a group. As I said in an earlier post, I am probably the more gullible of the group. In fact, it was I that found the Roots of Faith group in the first place. We had previously been using the FFOZ Torah club material and were closely affiliated with Daniel Lancaster and his fellowship. Our son, and Dan and Denise's daughter, ( who are married to each other) attend his synagogue in Hudson, WI so we still have a lot of connection with them. Daniel Lancaster and his family have come to a couple of our sabbath meals and we thoroughly enjoy their fellowship. He is a very brilliant man and is very scholarly and instrumental in the Hebrew Roots movement. His character is impeccable and to this day I can find no criticism of him on the internet. After discovering your group via iTunes Podcast search, I was immediately drawn to your teaching style and mentioned this to those in our group. They were a little hesitant at first, but after several weeks of listening together have become very excited about your work. We all look forward to listening in each Saturday. My wife and I have decided that it is a ministry worth supporting financially as you know. Through the dialogue I have become more familiar with names and relationships, personal stories and ideas, dreams and visions and even some things that have become troublesome. But I am no longer afraid to investigate these things on my own, although I do like to ask questions for a more personal experience. Now, you have written you story for obvious reasons to anyone reading this dialogue. I feel like it is mostly for the benefit of our questioning group here in Minnesota. But I would imagine that it has been helpful to many others who are on the sidelines who ask these questions privately in their own minds. I am sure it was a benefit to all. For that we thank you, Ross. It has clear up many loose ends as far as your association with people and organizations. It appears that my post to James has been hurtful, based on the tone of his response. I wasn't making any accusations in what I said. I was only trying to lay out our where are thinking was at the moment based upon things that we were learning from other sources regarding the Talipot Tomb story. As you can imagine, some of the criticism of James and the Lost Tomb group can be very damaging to an outsider's view of what the motives may be for the production of such a documentary or book. Then by association to others closely connected, being the UIWU and now you, Ross. These things tend to settle down with more information. I did read James blog. But I didn't stop there. I have read his amazon blogs, and writings from other internet sites. For obvious reasons, many others have written on the subject matter which we have read. I must say, that James has always taken on his challengers with grace and professionalism. I am afraid that he is getting tired though. His recent diatribe against Paul, a newcomer to the group was way out of line we thought. Paul was just being who he is, thinking this was a group of like minded individuals who wanted to be an encouragement to each other. If you knew anything about Paul, you would know that he very much likes to use internet technology to be an encouragement to others. It is what he does. Regardless of his personal beliefs, he has a very good heart. But I don't think you see him back here again. What if I or someone else listening believes more as he does? It would be normal to take what James said to him and personalize it. If there were others like him out here, they probably are no longer. As far as his response to me?... That dialogue is closed. He made that quite clear in his sign off. I, being an amateur radio operator, know what "Over and Out" means. It means the radio has been turned off and no one is listening any longer. I was hoping for an enlightening dialogue with him. So I am left to read his blog and others and do my own research. Which is fine. We are doing that. In fact, we have been in a very interesting and revealing conversation with Joe Zias, which is ongoing on many levels. I am sure that some here will become more aware of him as time progresses, especially with the Talipot Tomb conference coming up. On a final note. My wife heard something this week that Dennis Prager said on his radio show. "What we chose to be offended by, says a lot about our character". We have no desire or intention to offend anyone and have not in any way been offended by anyone in the group. We, like many here, are only in a quest for truth on many levels. And for the things we have learned on this dialogue we are grateful. Especially to you, Ross, for taking the time to share your story. We know that your time is precious to you. You are a very busy man with so may irons in the fire. We only pray that you will have time to take care of the most important mission in your life....you wife and family. Shalom and Happy New Year! Love, Denny, Mary Joyce, Dan and Denise. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/f64ebc59/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Jan 1 11:20:18 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 12:20:18 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801010847o60cafad0ma945c3afa26f8d18@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801010847o60cafad0ma945c3afa26f8d18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26C20B8A-425B-489F-A848-21D0A96881D8@earthlink.net> Hey Denny, Best to you and yours also in the New Year! I truly regret any misunderstanding between us and I think, as many of us have experienced, that e-mail can be very lacking in some ways, in that it does not always convey "tone" and the sense of things. I was not really "offended" at your message to me but mainly just a little surprised that you had after one day determined that in the complexity of my dealings with Joe Zias, a dear and lifelong friend of mine by the way, that you had decided, without reading what I had written extensively on the subject, that I was dishonest in my account of things. It was actually Joe who first convinced me, way back in 1996, that the cluster of names in the Talpiot tomb was so totally unique and impressive, that if he had not known they were from a controlled archaeological dig he would have thought them a forgery. He has since changed his mind, but back then his views led me to my own study. He stood almost alone defending the idea that the names could not so easily be dismissed as "common." I like Joe very much and though I have been very hurt personally by his comments about me on the Internet, the deeper bond I feel for him will always be there and I have tried my best to respond to his charges with sober and courteous replies. My Blog is there as a witness for any who want to read for themselves. I might also point out, since some of your posts had brought this up, that I do not take money for films and was paid nothing for my part in the Tomb film or any of the others I have done. I don't have your message anymore but I think there was such a line/ charge, but maybe you did not mean it in the way I read it. I also felt that this Talpiot tomb discussion was maybe not appropriate for the Dialogue list and since I have written over 50 posts on the subject, public and available for all to read, plus published my views in Ancient Near Eastern Archaeology, there was really no reason to rehash it all here--plus the extensive time involved. As for Paul, if you go back and read those posts again I am almost sure you have missed something here and you might have a different view, in that the "deaf and blind" charge and others statements were quite condescending and hurtful, whether intended so or not, not only to Hanoch but really all Jews of faith. They were also delivered in a style far from the standards of Dialogue list, as Ross pointed out in his post trying to illustrate how such things might have gone, not sure if you caught that one. Anyway, sorry my "over and out" conveyed to you something I never intended. I actually meant it as friendly, believe it or not, but I did want to encourage you to read a bit before you drew your conclusions. But that said, I will be happy to correspond with you off list on this and other related matters but for the Dialogue list I think it might be "off topic" for me at least. Warmest best, James On Jan 1, 2008, at 11:47 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: > Ross, > > Thank you for taking the time to bring those of us out here removed > from actual relationships with roots of faith folks, up to date on > your personal story. > It is very moving to say the least. Rest assured that it was not > time wasted. Now we can hear you within the framework of YOUR > journey. Your have become very respected in our small group of God > fearers. Your teaching has been very stimulating and effectual in > helping us take up the responsibility of searching for God on our > own. We obviously have been moving in that direction as we have left > the church and started this journey together a year ago. But your > humble teaching style has drawn us into the Roots of Faith family. > > That's not to say that we are totally comfortable with everything we > hear. I am the only one in our group who has chosen to be a part of > this dialogue. But I do bring back to the group many of the > discussions and ideas for us to discuss together as a group. As I > said in an earlier post, I am probably the more gullible of the > group. In fact, it was I that found the Roots of Faith group in the > first place. We had previously been using the FFOZ Torah club > material and were closely affiliated with Daniel Lancaster and his > fellowship. Our son, and Dan and Denise's daughter, ( who are > married to each other) attend his synagogue in Hudson, WI so we > still have a lot of connection with them. Daniel Lancaster and his > family have come to a couple of our sabbath meals and we thoroughly > enjoy their fellowship. He is a very brilliant man and is very > scholarly and instrumental in the Hebrew Roots movement. His > character is impeccable and to this day I can find no criticism of > him on the internet. > > After discovering your group via iTunes Podcast search, I was > immediately drawn to your teaching style and mentioned this to those > in our group. They were a little hesitant at first, but after > several weeks of listening together have become very excited about > your work. We all look forward to listening in each Saturday. My > wife and I have decided that it is a ministry worth supporting > financially as you know. > > Through the dialogue I have become more familiar with names and > relationships, personal stories and ideas, dreams and visions and > even some things that have become troublesome. But I am no longer > afraid to investigate these things on my own, although I do like to > ask questions for a more personal experience. Now, you have written > you story for obvious reasons to anyone reading this dialogue. I > feel like it is mostly for the benefit of our questioning group here > in Minnesota. But I would imagine that it has been helpful to many > others who are on the sidelines who ask these questions privately in > their own minds. I am sure it was a benefit to all. For that we > thank you, Ross. It has clear up many loose ends as far as your > association with people and organizations. > > It appears that my post to James has been hurtful, based on the tone > of his response. I wasn't making any accusations in what I said. I > was only trying to lay out our where are thinking was at the moment > based upon things that we were learning from other sources regarding > the Talipot Tomb story. As you can imagine, some of the criticism of > James and the Lost Tomb group can be very damaging to an outsider's > view of what the motives may be for the production of such a > documentary or book. Then by association to others closely > connected, being the UIWU and now you, Ross. These things tend to > settle down with more information. I did read James blog. But I > didn't stop there. I have read his amazon blogs, and writings from > other internet sites. For obvious reasons, many others have written > on the subject matter which we have read. I must say, that James has > always taken on his challengers with grace and professionalism. I am > afraid that he is getting tired though. His recent diatribe against > Paul, a newcomer to the group was way out of line we thought. Paul > was just being who he is, thinking this was a group of like minded > individuals who wanted to be an encouragement to each other. If you > knew anything about Paul, you would know that he very much likes to > use internet technology to be an encouragement to others. It is what > he does. Regardless of his personal beliefs, he has a very good > heart. But I don't think you see him back here again. What if I or > someone else listening believes more as he does? It would be normal > to take what James said to him and personalize it. If there were > others like him out here, they probably are no longer. > > As far as his response to me?... That dialogue is closed. He made > that quite clear in his sign off. I, being an amateur radio > operator, know what "Over and Out" means. It means the radio has > been turned off and no one is listening any longer. I was hoping for > an enlightening dialogue with him. So I am left to read his blog and > others and do my own research. Which is fine. We are doing that. In > fact, we have been in a very interesting and revealing conversation > with Joe Zias, which is ongoing on many levels. I am sure that some > here will become more aware of him as time progresses, especially > with the Talipot Tomb conference coming up. > > On a final note. My wife heard something this week that Dennis > Prager said on his radio show. "What we chose to be offended by, > says a lot about our character". We have no desire or intention to > offend anyone and have not in any way been offended by anyone in the > group. We, like many here, are only in a quest for truth on many > levels. And for the things we have learned on this dialogue we are > grateful. Especially to you, Ross, for taking the time to share your > story. We know that your time is precious to you. You are a very > busy man with so may irons in the fire. We only pray that you will > have time to take care of the most important mission in your > life....you wife and family. > > > Shalom and Happy New Year! > > Love, > Denny, Mary Joyce, Dan and Denise. > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/36038937/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 11:36:23 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:36:23 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: <26C20B8A-425B-489F-A848-21D0A96881D8@earthlink.net> References: <1d04e0430801010847o60cafad0ma945c3afa26f8d18@mail.gmail.com> <26C20B8A-425B-489F-A848-21D0A96881D8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801010936i2c7b07d1u59d743fd0a274082@mail.gmail.com> Happy New Year, James! How is your wife doing. I heard that she has been not well these days. Who needs all this when more important family matters are pressing. Our prayers are with you both. Thank you for clearing up my misunderstanding. Yes, email can be a difficult mode of communication as John pointed out earlier last week. Also I probably should be more careful about what topics should be brought up and discussed in the dialogue list. This may well have been beyond the envisioned scope of its intended purposes. Thank you for the invitation to dialogue with you on the side. I have been reading and will continue to read and try to gain a balanced perspective on the Talipot Tomb. I am doing considerable research on my own regarding the UIWU and have to be honest with you here, that I am finding some disturbing things that probably should also not be discussed here. Thanks for reaching out. Shalom, Denny On Jan 1, 2008 11:20 AM, James Tabor wrote: > Hey Denny, > Best to you and yours also in the New Year! > > I truly regret any misunderstanding between us and I think, as many of us > have experienced, that e-mail can be very lacking in some ways, in that it > does not always convey "tone" and the sense of things. I was not really > "offended" at your message to me but mainly just a little surprised that you > had after one day determined that in the complexity of my dealings with Joe > Zias, a dear and lifelong friend of mine by the way, that you had decided, > without reading what I had written extensively on the subject, that I was > dishonest in my account of things. It was actually Joe who first convinced > me, way back in 1996, that the cluster of names in the Talpiot tomb was so > totally unique and impressive, that if he had not known they were from a > controlled archaeological dig he would have thought them a forgery. He has > since changed his mind, but back then his views led me to my own study. He > stood almost alone defending the idea that the names could not so easily be > dismissed as "common." I like Joe very much and though I have been very hurt > personally by his comments about me on the Internet, the deeper bond I feel > for him will always be there and I have tried my best to respond to his > charges with sober and courteous replies. My Blog is there as a witness for > any who want to read for themselves. I might also point out, since some of > your posts had brought this up, that I do not take money for films and was > paid nothing for my part in the Tomb film or any of the others I have done. > I don't have your message anymore but I think there was such a line/charge, > but maybe you did not mean it in the way I read it. I also felt that this > Talpiot tomb discussion was maybe not appropriate for the Dialogue list and > since I have written over 50 posts on the subject, public and available for > all to read, plus published my views in *Ancient Near Eastern Archaeology, > *there was really no reason to rehash it all here--plus the extensive time > involved. As for Paul, if you go back and read those posts again I am almost > sure you have missed something here and you might have a different view, in > that the "deaf and blind" charge and others statements were quite > condescending and hurtful, whether intended so or not, not only to Hanoch > but really all Jews of faith. They were also delivered in a style far from > the standards of Dialogue list, as Ross pointed out in his post trying to > illustrate how such things might have gone, not sure if you caught that one. > > Anyway, sorry my "over and out" conveyed to you something I never > intended. I actually meant it as friendly, believe it or not, but I did want > to encourage you to read a bit before you drew your conclusions. But that > said, I will be happy to correspond with you off list on this and other > related matters but for the Dialogue list I think it might be "off topic" > for me at least. > > Warmest best, > > James > > > > > On Jan 1, 2008, at 11:47 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: > > Ross, > Thank you for taking the time to bring those of us out here removed from > actual relationships with roots of faith folks, up to date on your personal > story. > It is very moving to say the least. Rest assured that it was not time > wasted. Now we can hear you within the framework of YOUR journey. Your have > become very respected in our small group of God fearers. Your teaching has > been very stimulating and effectual in helping us take up the responsibility > of searching for God on our own. We obviously have been moving in that > direction as we have left the church and started this journey together a > year ago. But your humble teaching style has drawn us into the Roots of > Faith family. > > That's not to say that we are totally comfortable with everything we hear. > I am the only one in our group who has chosen to be a part of this dialogue. > But I do bring back to the group many of the discussions and ideas for us to > discuss together as a group. As I said in an earlier post, I am probably the > more gullible of the group. In fact, it was I that found the Roots of Faith > group in the first place. We had previously been using the FFOZ Torah club > material and were closely affiliated with Daniel Lancaster and his > fellowship. Our son, and Dan and Denise's daughter, ( who are married to > each other) attend his synagogue in Hudson, WI so we still have a lot of > connection with them. Daniel Lancaster and his family have come to a couple > of our sabbath meals and we thoroughly enjoy their fellowship. He is a very > brilliant man and is very scholarly and instrumental in the Hebrew Roots > movement. His character is impeccable and to this day I can find no > criticism of him on the internet. > > After discovering your group via iTunes Podcast search, I was immediately > drawn to your teaching style and mentioned this to those in our group. They > were a little hesitant at first, but after several weeks of listening > together have become very excited about your work. We all look forward to > listening in each Saturday. My wife and I have decided that it is a ministry > worth supporting financially as you know. > > Through the dialogue I have become more familiar with names and > relationships, personal stories and ideas, dreams and visions and even some > things that have become troublesome. But I am no longer afraid to > investigate these things on my own, although I do like to ask questions for > a more personal experience. Now, you have written you story for obvious > reasons to anyone reading this dialogue. I feel like it is mostly for the > benefit of our questioning group here in Minnesota. But I would imagine that > it has been helpful to many others who are on the sidelines who ask these > questions privately in their own minds. I am sure it was a benefit to all. > For that we thank you, Ross. It has clear up many loose ends as far as your > association with people and organizations. > > It appears that my post to James has been hurtful, based on the tone of > his response. I wasn't making any accusations in what I said. I was only > trying to lay out our where are thinking was at the moment based upon things > that we were learning from other sources regarding the Talipot Tomb story. > As you can imagine, some of the criticism of James and the Lost Tomb group > can be very damaging to an outsider's view of what the motives may be for > the production of such a documentary or book. Then by association to others > closely connected, being the UIWU and now you, Ross. These things tend to > settle down with more information. I did read James blog. But I didn't stop > there. I have read his amazon blogs, and writings from other internet sites. > For obvious reasons, many others have written on the subject matter which we > have read. I must say, that James has always taken on his challengers with > grace and professionalism. I am afraid that he is getting tired though. His > recent diatribe against Paul, a newcomer to the group was way out of line we > thought. Paul was just being who he is, thinking this was a group of like > minded individuals who wanted to be an encouragement to each other. If you > knew anything about Paul, you would know that he very much likes to use > internet technology to be an encouragement to others. It is what he does. > Regardless of his personal beliefs, he has a very good heart. But I don't > think you see him back here again. What if I or someone else listening > believes more as he does? It would be normal to take what James said to him > and personalize it. If there were others like him out here, they probably > are no longer. > > As far as his response to me?... That dialogue is closed. He made that > quite clear in his sign off. I, being an amateur radio operator, know what > "Over and Out" means. It means the radio has been turned off and no one is > listening any longer. I was hoping for an enlightening dialogue with him. So > I am left to read his blog and others and do my own research. Which is fine. > We are doing that. In fact, we have been in a very interesting and revealing > conversation with Joe Zias, which is ongoing on many levels. I am sure that > some here will become more aware of him as time progresses, especially with > the Talipot Tomb conference coming up. > > On a final note. My wife heard something this week that Dennis Prager said > on his radio show. "What we chose to be offended by, says a lot about our > character". We have no desire or intention to offend anyone and have not in > any way been offended by anyone in the group. We, like many here, are only > in a quest for truth on many levels. And for the things we have learned on > this dialogue we are grateful. Especially to you, Ross, for taking the time > to share your story. We know that your time is precious to you. You are a > very busy man with so may irons in the fire. We only pray that you will have > time to take care of the most important mission in your life....you wife and > family. > > > Shalom and Happy New Year! > > Love, > Denny, Mary Joyce, Dan and Denise. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/f8c97941/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Jan 1 11:39:15 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 12:39:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801010936i2c7b07d1u59d743fd0a274082@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801010847o60cafad0ma945c3afa26f8d18@mail.gmail.com> <26C20B8A-425B-489F-A848-21D0A96881D8@earthlink.net> <1d04e0430801010936i2c7b07d1u59d743fd0a274082@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <04EC8690-C5D9-4CB5-B556-78FC01E60C47@earthlink.net> Yes, let's discuss any and all of this privately...but I do encourage you to come to me first before you draw your conclusions. Best, James On Jan 1, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > Happy New Year, James! > > How is your wife doing. I heard that she has been not well these > days. Who needs all this when more important family matters are > pressing. Our prayers are with you both. > > Thank you for clearing up my misunderstanding. Yes, email can be a > difficult mode of communication as John pointed out earlier last > week. Also I probably should be more careful about what topics > should be brought up and discussed in the dialogue list. This may > well have been beyond the envisioned scope of its intended purposes. > Thank you for the invitation to dialogue with you on the side. > > I have been reading and will continue to read and try to gain a > balanced perspective on the Talipot Tomb. I am doing considerable > research on my own regarding the UIWU and have to be honest with you > here, that I am finding some disturbing things that probably should > also not be discussed here. > > Thanks for reaching out. > > Shalom, > Denny > > > On Jan 1, 2008 11:20 AM, James Tabor > wrote: > Hey Denny, > > Best to you and yours also in the New Year! > > I truly regret any misunderstanding between us and I think, as many > of us have experienced, that e-mail can be very lacking in some > ways, in that it does not always convey "tone" and the sense of > things. I was not really "offended" at your message to me but mainly > just a little surprised that you had after one day determined that > in the complexity of my dealings with Joe Zias, a dear and lifelong > friend of mine by the way, that you had decided, without reading > what I had written extensively on the subject, that I was dishonest > in my account of things. It was actually Joe who first convinced me, > way back in 1996, that the cluster of names in the Talpiot tomb was > so totally unique and impressive, that if he had not known they were > from a controlled archaeological dig he would have thought them a > forgery. He has since changed his mind, but back then his views led > me to my own study. He stood almost alone defending the idea that > the names could not so easily be dismissed as "common." I like Joe > very much and though I have been very hurt personally by his > comments about me on the Internet, the deeper bond I feel for him > will always be there and I have tried my best to respond to his > charges with sober and courteous replies. My Blog is there as a > witness for any who want to read for themselves. I might also point > out, since some of your posts had brought this up, that I do not > take money for films and was paid nothing for my part in the Tomb > film or any of the others I have done. I don't have your message > anymore but I think there was such a line/charge, but maybe you did > not mean it in the way I read it. I also felt that this Talpiot > tomb discussion was maybe not appropriate for the Dialogue list and > since I have written over 50 posts on the subject, public and > available for all to read, plus published my views in Ancient Near > Eastern Archaeology, there was really no reason to rehash it all > here--plus the extensive time involved. As for Paul, if you go back > and read those posts again I am almost sure you have missed > something here and you might have a different view, in that the > "deaf and blind" charge and others statements were quite > condescending and hurtful, whether intended so or not, not only to > Hanoch but really all Jews of faith. They were also delivered in a > style far from the standards of Dialogue list, as Ross pointed out > in his post trying to illustrate how such things might have gone, > not sure if you caught that one. > > Anyway, sorry my "over and out" conveyed to you something I never > intended. I actually meant it as friendly, believe it or not, but I > did want to encourage you to read a bit before you drew your > conclusions. But that said, I will be happy to correspond with you > off list on this and other related matters but for the Dialogue list > I think it might be "off topic" for me at least. > > Warmest best, > > James > > > > > On Jan 1, 2008, at 11:47 AM, Denny Johnson wrote: > >> Ross, >> >> Thank you for taking the time to bring those of us out here removed >> from actual relationships with roots of faith folks, up to date on >> your personal story. >> It is very moving to say the least. Rest assured that it was not >> time wasted. Now we can hear you within the framework of YOUR >> journey. Your have become very respected in our small group of God >> fearers. Your teaching has been very stimulating and effectual in >> helping us take up the responsibility of searching for God on our >> own. We obviously have been moving in that direction as we have >> left the church and started this journey together a year ago. But >> your humble teaching style has drawn us into the Roots of Faith >> family. >> >> That's not to say that we are totally comfortable with everything >> we hear. I am the only one in our group who has chosen to be a part >> of this dialogue. But I do bring back to the group many of the >> discussions and ideas for us to discuss together as a group. As I >> said in an earlier post, I am probably the more gullible of the >> group. In fact, it was I that found the Roots of Faith group in the >> first place. We had previously been using the FFOZ Torah club >> material and were closely affiliated with Daniel Lancaster and his >> fellowship. Our son, and Dan and Denise's daughter, ( who are >> married to each other) attend his synagogue in Hudson, WI so we >> still have a lot of connection with them. Daniel Lancaster and his >> family have come to a couple of our sabbath meals and we thoroughly >> enjoy their fellowship. He is a very brilliant man and is very >> scholarly and instrumental in the Hebrew Roots movement. His >> character is impeccable and to this day I can find no criticism of >> him on the internet. >> >> After discovering your group via iTunes Podcast search, I was >> immediately drawn to your teaching style and mentioned this to >> those in our group. They were a little hesitant at first, but after >> several weeks of listening together have become very excited about >> your work. We all look forward to listening in each Saturday. My >> wife and I have decided that it is a ministry worth supporting >> financially as you know. >> >> Through the dialogue I have become more familiar with names and >> relationships, personal stories and ideas, dreams and visions and >> even some things that have become troublesome. But I am no longer >> afraid to investigate these things on my own, although I do like to >> ask questions for a more personal experience. Now, you have written >> you story for obvious reasons to anyone reading this dialogue. I >> feel like it is mostly for the benefit of our questioning group >> here in Minnesota. But I would imagine that it has been helpful to >> many others who are on the sidelines who ask these questions >> privately in their own minds. I am sure it was a benefit to all. >> For that we thank you, Ross. It has clear up many loose ends as far >> as your association with people and organizations. >> >> It appears that my post to James has been hurtful, based on the >> tone of his response. I wasn't making any accusations in what I >> said. I was only trying to lay out our where are thinking was at >> the moment based upon things that we were learning from other >> sources regarding the Talipot Tomb story. As you can imagine, some >> of the criticism of James and the Lost Tomb group can be very >> damaging to an outsider's view of what the motives may be for the >> production of such a documentary or book. Then by association to >> others closely connected, being the UIWU and now you, Ross. These >> things tend to settle down with more information. I did read James >> blog. But I didn't stop there. I have read his amazon blogs, and >> writings from other internet sites. For obvious reasons, many >> others have written on the subject matter which we have read. I >> must say, that James has always taken on his challengers with grace >> and professionalism. I am afraid that he is getting tired though. >> His recent diatribe against Paul, a newcomer to the group was way >> out of line we thought. Paul was just being who he is, thinking >> this was a group of like minded individuals who wanted to be an >> encouragement to each other. If you knew anything about Paul, you >> would know that he very much likes to use internet technology to be >> an encouragement to others. It is what he does. Regardless of his >> personal beliefs, he has a very good heart. But I don't think you >> see him back here again. What if I or someone else listening >> believes more as he does? It would be normal to take what James >> said to him and personalize it. If there were others like him out >> here, they probably are no longer. >> >> As far as his response to me?... That dialogue is closed. He made >> that quite clear in his sign off. I, being an amateur radio >> operator, know what "Over and Out" means. It means the radio has >> been turned off and no one is listening any longer. I was hoping >> for an enlightening dialogue with him. So I am left to read his >> blog and others and do my own research. Which is fine. We are doing >> that. In fact, we have been in a very interesting and revealing >> conversation with Joe Zias, which is ongoing on many levels. I am >> sure that some here will become more aware of him as time >> progresses, especially with the Talipot Tomb conference coming up. >> >> On a final note. My wife heard something this week that Dennis >> Prager said on his radio show. "What we chose to be offended by, >> says a lot about our character". We have no desire or intention to >> offend anyone and have not in any way been offended by anyone in >> the group. We, like many here, are only in a quest for truth on >> many levels. And for the things we have learned on this dialogue we >> are grateful. Especially to you, Ross, for taking the time to share >> your story. We know that your time is precious to you. You are a >> very busy man with so may irons in the fire. We only pray that you >> will have time to take care of the most important mission in your >> life....you wife and family. >> >> >> Shalom and Happy New Year! >> >> Love, >> Denny, Mary Joyce, Dan and Denise. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/8fd99a52/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 1 12:01:28 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 13:01:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] World leader contacts ??? In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801010803r6c48f380p558bb8d76882c2f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0801010803r6c48f380p558bb8d76882c2f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CA1AB77771C24C-80C-187F@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Hey Kim - ??? Sorry you've had a rough week, sounds like you've been mirroring my life!? And trust me, you don't want to do that... ???? But always know that you've got friends here :-) ???? The Hebrew you're looking for is:? Shalom L'Kulchem ????? Best regards, ??????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:03 am Subject: [Dialogue] World leader contacts ??? Hello all, A while back I promised to post contact information for world leaders.? I found some information on the internet fairly quickly, but wanted to verify first before I shared it.? I have decided to go ahead and post what I've found and whoever is interested can verify the contacts that they need.? I apologize for not taking care of this, but I simply have too much on my shoulders right now.? Here are the links: the cia - https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/world-leaders-1/index.html ??????????????????????????? the pages on the Temple Institute site - http://www.templeinstitute.org/antiquities/antiquities_law.htm#faxes ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? http://www.templeinstitute.org/contact-info.htm I have also attached a word document with addresses I copied off a website that I can no longer find. Shalom to all (how do I say the "to all" in Hebrew?) Kim _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/98bfa706/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 1 12:10:49 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:10:49 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] HYN Message-ID: <010120081810.22172.477A82290007BA770000569C22230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Happy New Year, 'Cole Klan' and all others! May YHVH lead you all further down the Ancient Path this year! Glenn, Rhonda and family -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/33df2602/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 1 12:21:41 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 13:21:41 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] May 2008 bring Brachot! Message-ID: <8CA1ABA4AB0E334-80C-1938@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Shalom Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), ??? May 2008 be a year filled with health, love, happiness, prosperity, wisdom and contentment to all of you and your families.? May this be the year that we are able to help bring the Geula Shlema - the Final Redemption! ??? B'Ahavat Yisrael, ????????? Hanoch ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/38a96063/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 1 12:43:23 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 13:43:23 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Never taking things for granted Message-ID: <8CA1ABD525EA370-80C-19F0@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Shalom to all - ?? I just received a call from my brother (we are not close..), asking me my opinion of which hospital in Manhattan is the best for severe trauma (I used to work in Healthcare).? It seems that the son of the woman he lives with, John (age 22 or 23) was walking in the city last night (along with about 1 million other people), and was hit by a drunk driver. ? He is currently on a respirator, and his brain function is ranked '4' on a scale up to '15' - where we are..... ??This is a parent's worst nightmare....may we never take our loved ones for granted... ? May John have a Refuah Shlema - a complete and total recovery....but it's not looking good..... ? May HaShem have mercy, ???????????? Hanoch ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/19e0da15/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 1 12:46:22 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:46:22 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream Message-ID: <010120081846.3268.477A8A7B0009686600000CC422230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hi Vickie, Welcome to the dialogue. I hope it is a blessing to you. Being from New York I am very familiar with Gefilte fish. I like it very much. Unfortunately I have nothing for you on your dream. I'm not an interpreter and I am very wary of those that claim to be regularly. I have been given a couple of interpretations in the past but it was never anything dramatic, I just kinda, sorts knew what they meant. Nothing is jumping out at me here (no pun intended). But I'm sure someone on this list can shed some light on it. Happy new year to you and yours. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Vickie Pilkerton : -------------- Hello All, This is my first posting to "Dailogue". I am trying to understand a dream that I had and hope maybe someone has some insight. My husband and I are new (1 year) to study and the following of Torah. So much to learn, but are loving every step! In my dream I am sitting at the head of a large round table meeting with 6 people, none of whom I know personally. They are heads of religious, political and legal organizations. The meeting is lengthy and at lunch time we stop to eat. I have catered a meal for everyone present. Servers bring out a plate full of food, but on it is included a large, live, light-blue, transparent, "jelly" like fish. In each fish can be seen 1-3 more, smaller, live fish. Most at the table do not want to eat it, so I place them all in a large bowl. The bowl cannot contain all of them and they are jumping out of the top of the bowl because of overflow. Shortly after lunch is over, my husband and a friend (who is a supporter/teacher) join us for the meeting and they take over the proceedings. ~The End~ Today I find out that there is a traditional Jewish meal often served for Shabbat which consist of a Gefilte fish (Yiddish: ???????? ????) . Which are poached fish patties or balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, most carp (common carp). They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. In traditional recipes for gefilte fish, the fish is first deboned, often while still at the market. Next, the fish is ground into a paste along with eggs, onions and flour meal or matzoh meal and then stuffed back into the skin of the deboned fish, giving it the name gefilte (filled or stuffed). Doe's anyone see any connection or meaning in this kind of fish to my dream? Thanks! Lou I Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/64d03108/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 1 12:49:21 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 13:49:21 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: <168640.78641.qm@web57109.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <168640.78641.qm@web57109.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA1ABE27AF0416-80C-1A24@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Hi Tammy - ?? I totally agree, not only are we sharing exciting information between us, we're meeting great people along the way! ???????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tammy & Bruce Croley To: roots of faith dialogue Sent: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:22 am Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) Dearest Ross, ?? ? I am so glad that you took the time to send out the email that as you say will ?? "fill in some of the blanks for all of you and for those who are a bit confused or concerned about some of my associations".? I have been with this dialogue since the beginning and I for one know that it was HaShem who led me here.? Through a conversation that I had with Debbie Good, I learned about you and your live broadcasts.? It came at a time that I was so in need of fellowship that I know that it truly came at the hands of HaShem.??? ??? Through this dialogue, I have made some very important connections.? I have formed friendships with people from Texas, Georgia, Louisiana and even New York.? These are relationships that I would not have made had it not been for this dialogue.? I can talk with people like Betty, Pat, Hanoch and others about things that I have discovered or ask them questions about things that I simply don't understand.? We are coming together knowing that we are all at different places in our "Walk", but confident that we all love HaShem and that we can discuss anything with each other.? ?? ? I just want to "thank you" for all that you are doing and I want to encourage you to carry on as HaShem leads you.? I would also like to say how much respect I have for James Tabor and all that he has done and continues to do.? I feel very honored that a professional such as him takes the time to dialogue with someone like me.? Shalom, Tammy Croley ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will."? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/158ecb2d/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 1 12:59:35 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 13:59:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream In-Reply-To: <010120081846.3268.477A8A7B0009686600000CC422230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <010120081846.3268.477A8A7B0009686600000CC422230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <8CA1ABF95AA59C2-80C-1A73@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Hey John - ??? I'm so happy to hear you like Gefilte Fish - maybe I can bring some to you in April - I've got believe it's not readily available in LA......? :-) ??? The question is, do you like the really sweet Gefilte Fish, or not???? LOL?? Sorry, I needed a laugh today pal. ??? Hope all's well - ?????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fish Dream Hi Vickie, ? Welcome to the dialogue.? I hope it is a blessing to you.? Being from New York I am very familiar with Gefilte fish.? I like it very much. ? Unfortunately I have nothing for you on your dream.? I'm not an interpreter and I am very wary of those that claim to be regularly.? I have been given a couple of interpretations in the past but it was never anything dramatic, I just kinda, sorts knew what they meant.? Nothing is jumping out at me here (no pun intended). ? But I'm sure someone on this list can shed some light on it. ? Happy new year to you and yours. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Vickie Pilkerton : -------------- Hello All, ? This is my first posting to "Dailogue". I am trying to understand a dream that I had and hope maybe someone has some insight. My husband and I are new (1 year) to study and the following of Torah. So much to learn, but are loving every step! ? In my dream I am sitting at the head of?a large round table meeting with?6 people, none of whom I know personally. They are heads of religious, political and legal organizations. ? The meeting is lengthy and at lunch time we stop to eat. I have catered a meal for everyone present. Servers bring out a plate full of food, but on it is included a large, live, light-blue, transparent, "jelly" like fish. In each fish can be seen 1-3 more, smaller, live fish. Most at the table do not want to eat it, so I place them all in a large?bowl. The bowl cannot contain all of them and they are jumping out of the top of the bowl because of overflow. ? Shortly after lunch is over, my husband and a friend (who is a supporter/teacher) join us for the meeting and they take over the proceedings. ? ~The End~ ? ? Today I find out that there is a traditional Jewish meal often served for Shabbat which consist of a Gefilte fish (Yiddish: ???????? ????) . Which are poached fish patties or balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, most carp (common carp). They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. In traditional recipes for gefilte fish, the fish is first deboned, often while still at the market. Next, the fish is ground into a paste along with eggs, onions and flour meal or matzoh meal and then stuffed back into the ski n of the deboned fish, giving it the name gefilte (filled or stuffed). ? Doe's anyone see any connection or meaning in this kind of fish to my dream? ? Thanks! Lou ? ? I Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/706147d1/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 1 13:18:53 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:18:53 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream Message-ID: <010120081918.20287.477A9216000968A900004F3F22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Nah, no sweet tooth here boss. I'd love to have some in April though. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey John - I'm so happy to hear you like Gefilte Fish - maybe I can bring some to you in April - I've got believe it's not readily available in LA...... :-) The question is, do you like the really sweet Gefilte Fish, or not? LOL Sorry, I needed a laugh today pal. Hope all's well - Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fish Dream Hi Vickie, Welcome to the dialogue. I hope it is a blessing to you. Being from New York I am very familiar with Gefilte fish. I like it very much. Unfortunately I have nothing for you on your dream. I'm not an interpreter and I am very wary of those that claim to be regularly. I have been given a couple of interpretations in the past but it was never anything dramatic, I just kinda, sorts knew what they meant. Nothing is jumping out at me here (no pun intended). But I'm sure someone on this list can shed some light on it. Happy new year to you and yours. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Vickie Pilkerton : -------------- Hello All, This is my first posting to "Dailogue". I am trying to understand a dream that I had and hope maybe someone has some insight. My husband and I are new (1 year) to study and the following of Torah. So much to learn, but are loving every step! In my dream I am sitting at the head of a large round table meeting with 6 people, none of whom I know personally. They are heads of religious, political and legal organizations. The meeting is lengthy and at lunch time we stop to eat. I have catered a meal for everyone present. Servers bring out a plate full of food, but on it is included a large, live, light-blue, transparent, "jelly" like fish. In each fish can be seen 1-3 more, smaller, live fish. Most at the table do not want to eat it, so I place them all in a large bowl. The bowl cannot contain all of them and they are jumping out of the top of the bowl because of overflow. Shortly after lunch is over, my husband and a friend (who is a supporter/teacher) join us for the meeting and they take over the proceedings. ~The End~ Today I find out that there is a traditional Jewish meal often served for Shabbat which consist of a Gefilte fish (Yiddish: ???????????????? ????????) . Which are poached fish patties or balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, most carp (common carp). They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. In traditional recipes for gefilte fish, the fish is first deboned, often while still at the market. Next, the fish is ground into a paste along with eggs, onions and flour meal or matzoh meal and then stuffed back into the ski n of the deboned fish, giving it the name gefilte (filled or stuffed). Doe's anyone see any connection or meaning in this kind of fish to my dream? Thanks! Lou I Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/a0a27980/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 1 13:22:32 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 13:22:32 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <011d01c84cab$a85e9ab0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dearest Ross, Thank-you so very much for sharing your rich and "heart-warming saga" about your life. As one who knows and loves both you and your mother, I can see the beauty of her love, devotion, and dedication to G-d so visibly apparent in you. This was, was it not the reason that G-d chose Abraham, because he knew that he would teach his children and they their children and so on.dor v' dor, from generation to generation? And just look at all the beneficiaries through the ages and up to this very day! On a delightful personal note, I will never forget that Shabbat in the early 1990's when you came to our services led by Joe Good and Andy Garza with your mother. If my memory serves me correctly, you were dressed in your army fatigues; and after much encouragement, you joined Joe (who danced like a gazelle!)and the rest of us in a lively round of the Hora, boots and all! That is what I call, jumping in! And from what I have seen, that pretty well describes the kind of person you are.always willing to listen and consider a thing of value even if it is a different point of view from one that you hold.and then "jump in," with abandon and give it your all.whether it be learning Hebrew, researching the Lost Tribes, researching the Triennial Torah Cycle. or even making a decision to take up the challenge of not only to engage in the teaching of Moses in an abandoned synagogue every Sabbath, but to do a live pod cast on the web and open it all up for dialogue! We are all shaped by our parents, family, friends, associates and teachers along the way. You have been blessed by many, including your beloved mother, Johnny Powell, Joe Good, Andy Garza, James, those of UIWU, and most recently those of your Roots of Faith Synagogue without Walls and the internet connections thru your pod cast and your website. I believe that Hashem puts people in our path and provides all sorts of "connections" for us amidst our diverse walks of life, and that we are intrinsically linked and bonded to one another and to our ancestors in ways that are perhaps yet to be discovered. These people and opportunities are placed there to provide us with help and encouragement, even challenge.along the way of the "road less traveled," the Ancient Path. We are all fellow travelers and thanks be to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that we have found the path, and can together walk arm in arm as we seek the answers, but more than just seeking answers.let us seek to know the One True G-d! Jer.9:22-23 "Thus says HASHEM, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: but let him that glories glory in this, THAT HE UNDERSTANDS AND KNOWS ME, THAT I AM HASHEM who exercises faithful love, justice, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight says Hashem. Thank-you, Ross, for sharing your journey and thank-you for being who you are and thank-you to G-d, Baruch Hashem for bringing you, not only into my life, but into the lives of all that you have touched.and for bringing us to this day and this time and season! As my friend and brother, Hanoch, taught me, "Anachnu Nikavranu!" We are Blessed! My warmest blessings to you and Bridgett and children and also your lovely mother this coming year and may the Yad Tovah (the "Good Hand") guide your every step. Betty/Elisheva P.S. I am sure that Roger would want to add his blessings for you as well! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Nichols, Ross K. Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Cc: kfaymontgomery at yahoo.com Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU,Lost Tribes) Shalom! I have to apologize for my lack of involvement in the Dialogue list. I think that this interactive element to the quest is essential and one of the missing pieces in our current attempt to uncover truth. Iron sharpens Iron and as my friend and sister Sherry Cole often reminds me, "the trying of your faith is precious!" I think that it goes without saying that there exists in our day something quite unique beginning to happen. I see that we are entering an awakening of sorts in which lies, vanity and things wherein there is no profit are being revealed. I have learned more from a healthy challenge of long established beliefs in the past two decades than from all of my days of sitting in the pews of various churches signing on to the status quo. For me there is NO turning back. I am on a mission to find and preach the truth. In so doing, I will be met with all sorts of opposition, of that I am sure. I am up to the challenge and look forward to it! Each of you will be as well. Notice please that most often; the ones that put up the strongest opposition to your search are those who do not seek for themselves. They shut up the doors to the kingdom of heaven - they will not enter nor will they allow any of you to enter. They circle the globe to make one convert and when they have made them, they make them twice the son of hell that they are! (Yeshua) I am driven to search by the very words of the Bible, with a certain promise that I will find Yehovah if I search for Him with all of my heart and all of my soul. Jesus of Nazareth reportedly said that few would find this elusive way. It is indeed a narrow way, a less trodden path and the Way has been overgrown for centuries by false teaching and tactics of fear. The garden has been sown with weeds. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/fce05c7f/attachment.html From wokdelight at yahoo.com Tue Jan 1 13:55:10 2008 From: wokdelight at yahoo.com (Vickie Pilkerton) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:55:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream In-Reply-To: <010120081846.3268.477A8A7B0009686600000CC422230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <744798.69773.qm@web58302.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Thank you John for responding. It is a blessing to know you actually read what I posted and took time to answer. Happy New Year to you and yours also! Vickie carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: Hi Vickie, Welcome to the dialogue. I hope it is a blessing to you. Being from New York I am very familiar with Gefilte fish. I like it very much. Unfortunately I have nothing for you on your dream. I'm not an interpreter and I am very wary of those that claim to be regularly. I have been given a couple of interpretations in the past but it was never anything dramatic, I just kinda, sorts knew what they meant. Nothing is jumping out at me here (no pun intended). But I'm sure someone on this list can shed some light on it. Happy new year to you and yours. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Vickie Pilkerton : -------------- Hello All, This is my first posting to "Dailogue". I am trying to understand a dream that I had and hope maybe someone has some insight. My husband and I are new (1 year) to study and the following of Torah. So much to learn, but are loving every step! In my dream I am sitting at the head of a large round table meeting with 6 people, none of whom I know personally. They are heads of religious, political and legal organizations. The meeting is lengthy and at lunch time we stop to eat. I have catered a meal for everyone present. Servers bring out a plate full of food, but on it is included a large, live, light-blue, transparent, "jelly" like fish. In each fish can be seen 1-3 more, smaller, live fish. Most at the table do not want to eat it, so I place them all in a large bowl. The bowl cannot contain all of them and they are jumping out of the top of the bowl because of overflow. Shortly after lunch is over, my husband and a friend (who is a supporter/teacher) join us for the meeting and they take over the proceedings. ~The End~ Today I find out that there is a traditional Jewish meal often served for Shabbat which consist of a Gefilte fish (Yiddish: ???????? ????) . Which are poached fish patties or balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, most carp (common carp). They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. In traditional recipes for gefilte fish, the fish is first deboned, often while still at the market. Next, the fish is ground into a paste along with eggs, onions and flour meal or matzoh meal and then stuffed back into the ski n of the deboned fish, giving it the name gefilte (filled or stuffed). Doe's anyone see any connection or meaning in this kind of fish to my dream? Thanks! Lou I --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/b4379148/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 1 14:43:49 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 14:43:49 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch, Tammy, SharonMy Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: <8CA1ABE27AF0416-80C-1A24@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <002401c84cb7$037d0430$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Hanoch, Tammy and Sharon, I am absolutely in agreement! And just think, of the untold people we have yet to meet on our journey! We are blessed! "Anachnu Nikavranu!" Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:49 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU,Lost Tribes) Hi Tammy - I totally agree, not only are we sharing exciting information between us, we're meeting great people along the way! Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tammy & Bruce Croley To: roots of faith dialogue Sent: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:22 am Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) Dearest Ross, I am so glad that you took the time to send out the email that as you say will "fill in some of the blanks for all of you and for those who are a bit confused or concerned about some of my associations". I have been with this dialogue since the beginning and I for one know that it was HaShem who led me here. Through a conversation that I had with Debbie Good, I learned about you and your live broadcasts. It came at a time that I was so in need of fellowship that I know that it truly came at the hands of HaShem. Through this dialogue, I have made some very important connections. I have formed friendships with people from Texas, Georgia, Louisiana and even New York. These are relationships that I would not have made had it not been for this dialogue. I can talk with people like Betty, Pat, Hanoch and others about things that I have discovered or ask them questions about things that I simply don't understand. We are coming together knowing that we are all at different places in our "Walk", but confident that we all love HaShem and that we can discuss anything with each other. I just want to "thank you" for all that you are doing and I want to encourage you to carry on as HaShem leads you. I would also like to say how much respect I have for James Tabor and all that he has done and continues to do. I feel very honored that a professional such as him takes the time to dialogue with someone like me. Shalom, Tammy Croley "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 _____ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _______________________________________________ _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/f9771c0e/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 1 14:52:10 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 14:52:10 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Never taking things for granted In-Reply-To: <8CA1ABD525EA370-80C-19F0@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <003401c84cb8$2dd227a0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, this is so very sad.and tragic, a parent's worst nightmare! I am so sorry. Yes, may John have a Refuah Shlema! Would it be appropriate to also include in our prayers that perhaps you and your brother might have a closer relationship thru all of this? Not intending to pry.just asking Betty/Elisheva. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Never taking things for granted Shalom to all - I just received a call from my brother (we are not close..), asking me my opinion of which hospital in Manhattan is the best for severe trauma (I used to work in Healthcare). It seems that the son of the woman he lives with, John (age 22 or 23) was walking in the city last night (along with about 1 million other people), and was hit by a drunk driver. He is currently on a respirator, and his brain function is ranked '4' on a scale up to '15' - where we are..... This is a parent's worst nightmare....may we never take our loved ones for granted... May John have a Refuah Shlema - a complete and total recovery....but it's not looking good..... May HaShem have mercy, Hanoch _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/1ba68351/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 1 15:13:16 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:13:16 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] May 2008 bring Brachot! In-Reply-To: <8CA1ABA4AB0E334-80C-1938@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <005701c84cbb$204c0f30$643c66c9@bettygivin> Yes Hanoch! And thank-you! May all of G-d's children everywhere be blessed by our wonderful G-d and Creator, as He continues to draw us to Himself from the four corners of the earth! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:22 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] May 2008 bring Brachot! Shalom Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), May 2008 be a year filled with health, love, happiness, prosperity, wisdom and contentment to all of you and your families. May this be the year that we are able to help bring the Geula Shlema - the Final Redemption! B'Ahavat Yisrael, Hanoch _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/5b63070a/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 1 15:15:27 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:15:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Never taking things for granted In-Reply-To: <003401c84cb8$2dd227a0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <8CA1AD290C41B36-940-23E7@WEBMAIL-DF15.sysops.aol.com> Dearest Betty - ? ??? Your blessings and prayers are ALWAYS welcome.? However, in this particular case (my brother), it's the old Tommy & Dickie Smothers routine - "mommy always liked you best.."?? Toward the end of my mother's life, I traveled almost 2 hours each way to see her every week, to shop for her, fill her refrigerator and even cook and freeze some meals for her, in addition to bringing stuff I made at home for her.? 'Big Brother' (he's 4.5 years older) couldn't find the time to drive 18 minutes to even see her.... ???? When she died, we had the horrible experience of breaking up her apartment (anyone who's ever experienced this knows how painful it is).? I would go every Sunday to clean things out, and he would go on Saturday (obviously, he is totally not involved in any aspect of Torah, at all).? The second Sunday I went, I noticed that not a thing had been touched....so I called him up to ask him what happened.? It seems he spent the entire day going through mom's checkbook stubs to see if she ever wrote me any checks.....that's the kind of guy he is. ???? If you recall the time I described my dad's alcoholism and how I worked to try to support my parents, he stayed at school smoking weed (marijuana).? So, no, don't waste your time on him....but I truly appreciate your offer - you are a sweetheart. ?? B'Ahava, ?????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 3:52 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Never taking things for granted Hanoch, this is so very sad?and tragic, a parent?s worst nightmare!? I am so sorry. Yes, may John have a Refuah Shlema!? Would it be appropriate to also include in our prayers that perhaps you and your brother might have a closer relationship thru all of this?? Not intending to pry?just asking ? Betty/Elisheva? ? ? ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Never taking things for granted ? Shalom to all - ?? I just received a call from my brother (we are not close..), asking me my opinion of which hospital in Manhattan is the best for severe trauma (I used to work in Healthcare).? It seems that the son of the woman he lives with, John (age 22 or 23) was walking in the city last night (along with about 1 million other people), and was hit by a drunk driver. ? He is currently on a respirator, and his brain function is ranked '4' on a scale up to '15' - where we are..... ??This is a parent's worst nightmare....may we never take our loved ones for granted... ? May John have a Refuah Shlema - a complete and total recovery....but it's not looking good..... ? May HaShem have mercy, ???????????? Hanoch More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/f96da6d0/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Jan 1 15:18:07 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 16:18:07 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream In-Reply-To: <981347.99787.qm@web58309.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <981347.99787.qm@web58309.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Vickie, I am neither a "prophet nor the son of a prophet," much less an interpreter of dreams, but from my reading and experience there seem to be two kinds on a human level, those that are more or less nonsense (to our interpretation at least) and have to do with our brains processing and filing away information, and those that in symbolic ways are playing out scenarios in our lives and experiences (fears, hopes, wishes, etc.). Beyond these, according to the Bible at least, are those dreams that come from "outside" and are ways the higher/other side communicates with us, as Numbers 12:6 mentions. I would call these "message" dreams, and sometimes they even come when one is not in a "deep sleep," almost like a waking vision... Determining the difference between the two kinds, that is the personal/ psychological and the message type can be difficult. This dream could be a symbolic way your own mind/self is expressing itself, or it could be some kind of message. Either way, I doubt if the fish, the main element of the dream, are "real" fish, but I think they likely stand for something. I think that there are precisely 6 people at the table is important, since with you added there would be seven. Since you have catered the meal it seems you are somehow responsible for the fish being there, but apparently you do not expect them, but still somehow "bring them to the table" in that sense. Since they are "live" they are not really good I think, but stand for something the rest of the group, who are "heads" and in authority, will not accept. You placing them in the bowl shows that you value them and want them to live not die... I think the fish stand for some group or class of things, whether people or not I have no idea, that you somehow save and others are willing to reject... Not sure this helps and I could here take wild guesses, but this sort of thing is just too hard to figure out without knowing you, what you are experiencing, going through, etc. Thanks for sharing... James On Jan 1, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Vickie Pilkerton wrote: > Hello All, > > This is my first posting to "Dailogue". I am trying to understand a > dream that I had and hope maybe someone has some insight. My husband > and I are new (1 year) to study and the following of Torah. So much > to learn, but are loving every step! > > In my dream I am sitting at the head of a large round table meeting > with 6 people, none of whom I know personally. They are heads of > religious, political and legal organizations. > > The meeting is lengthy and at lunch time we stop to eat. I have > catered a meal for everyone present. Servers bring out a plate full > of food, but on it is included a large, live, light-blue, > transparent, "jelly" like fish. In each fish can be seen 1-3 more, > smaller, live fish. Most at the table do not want to eat it, so I > place them all in a large bowl. The bowl cannot contain all of them > and they are jumping out of the top of the bowl because of overflow. > > Shortly after lunch is over, my husband and a friend (who is a > supporter/teacher) join us for the meeting and they take over the > proceedings. > > ~The End~ > > > Today I find out that there is a traditional Jewish meal often > served for Shabbat which consist of a Gefilte fish (Yiddish: > ???????? ????) . Which are poached fish patties or balls made from a > mixture of ground deboned fish, most carp (common carp). They are > popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. In traditional recipes > for gefilte fish, the fish is first deboned, often while still at > the market. Next, the fish is ground into a paste along with eggs, > onions and flour meal or matzoh meal and then stuffed back into the > skin of the deboned fish, giving it the name gefilte (filled or > stuffed). > > Doe's anyone see any connection or meaning in this kind of fish to > my dream? > > Thanks! > Lou > > > I > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/e845fee4/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Jan 1 15:45:32 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 16:45:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream, P.S. In-Reply-To: References: <981347.99787.qm@web58309.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Vicki, Regarding the fish I meant to type "they are not really FOOD..." I think they are probably "good" or positive in the dream... Bad typo! James On Jan 1, 2008, at 4:18 PM, James Tabor wrote: > they are not really good From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Tue Jan 1 15:47:00 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 16:47:00 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <069220E9DBA34FE0AE964DF6EA2C0BE5@DickLPC> Very nice Autobiography of your Bible yrs. I remember the Ancient prayer form J.David's place in Tennessee. I spent many Novembers there as well as you did in our beginnings. Great times. Dick L Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:30 AM Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) Shalom! I have to apologize for my lack of involvement in the Dialogue list. I think that this interactive element to the quest is essential and one of the missing pieces in our current attempt to uncover truth. Iron sharpens Iron and as my friend and sister Sherry Cole often reminds me, "the trying of your faith is precious!" I think that it goes without saying that there exists in our day something quite unique beginning to happen. I see that we are entering an awakening of sorts in which lies, vanity and things wherein there is no profit are being revealed. I have learned more from a healthy challenge of long established beliefs in the past two decades than from all of my days of sitting in the pews of various churches signing on to the status quo. For me there is NO turning back. I am on a mission to find and preach the truth. In so doing, I will be met with all sorts of opposition, of that I am sure. I am up to the challenge and look forward to it! Each of you will be as well. Notice please that most often; the ones that put up the strongest opposition to your search are those who do not seek for themselves. They shut up the doors to the kingdom of heaven - they will not enter nor will they allow any of you to enter. They circle the globe to make one convert and when they have made them, they make them twice the son of hell that they are! (Yeshua) I am driven to search by the very words of the Bible, with a certain promise that I will find Yehovah if I search for Him with all of my heart and all of my soul. Jesus of Nazareth reportedly said that few would find this elusive way. It is indeed a narrow way, a less trodden path and the Way has been overgrown for centuries by false teaching and tactics of fear. The garden has been sown with weeds. Because of some of the posts recently, I know that I should take some time and fill in some of the blanks for all of you and for those who are a bit confused or concerned about some of my associations. This will likely be long, but I think that it will help ease some of the concerns expressed in some of the notes lately. It often helps people to see where you have been in order to fully understand where you are going. I am giving a much abbreviated version and so I will try and put this all into one email. I grew up in a "Christian" home. I made my first "confession of faith" on June 6th, 1972 as a young boy. From what I remember I was very sincere. Church was my life. I loved the Bible stories and often imagined the stories happening before my eyes. All of my heroes were from the Bible. I would pretend to be Samson, or David, or one of the other men of God. When I was in kindergarten all the kids had to draw what they wanted to be when they grew up. There were firemen, and police officers, soldiers and then there was mine - proudly displayed in the hall of the school. A preacher with bell bottom plaid pants! I still have that picture. My mother was so proud. We were in the church every time the doors opened. I think my mother actually opened the doors. My mother and step dad (Dave) were very involved and worked in various parts of ministry. They helped start a church in Texas called BBT (Brazosport Baptist Temple). I remember the preacher very well. His name was Clifton Jones. At one point we had a bus ministry and I remember well how we went out and found some used school buses. My mother and Dave painted them and each bus was decorated and dedicated to one of the Peanuts characters (Snoopy, Charlie Brown, etc). We spent many days knocking on doors and inviting kids to church. Every Sunday morning we would dispatch the buses to bring the children into God's house. My mother developed a system to encourage kids to come. She hand made orange vests for every child that came a certain number of Sundays. Only God knows how many she made! One could then earn various badges. I still remember going to the Christian bookstore to buy pins and badges, pencils and other gifts. I cannot tell you how the kids (me included) worked to earn these trinkets. As I recall, each seat on the buses had a number painted on the back. When the last child was picked up, mother would draw a number from a bucket. The one in the winning seat won a silver dollar! All of this was such a wonderful time of my life. My mother always read me stories from the Bible and taught me the real test of what is right and wrong. If I ever wanted to know if something was okay or not, she would ask me if I thought Jesus would approve of me doing it. It was her belief that Jesus went everywhere with me and so all I had to do was to think about that. Sort of kept me from watching "dirty movies" (anything worse than G rating).....for many years. After all, would Jesus approve of anything elseJ? I still ask the question of what would Jesus do?...only with a bit more education now. Thanks Mother! Our life was regulated by my mother's walk with God. She has always been (and still is) a student of the things of God. When she found new truth, she simply packed up and walked that way...and we followed. Fast forward - In 1985 I entered active duty in the US Army. Bridget (my high school girlfriend) and I were married in February 1986. I spent nearly seven years on active duty. One day while walking through the barracks - and using a bit of profanity in the halls (I found this to be an effective way to make privates jumpJ.) As I approached the desk in the center of the hallway (where every 24 hours a new pair of soldiers were assigned CQ [charge of quarters] duty) a soldier looked at me and said the following: "Sergeant, would you please refrain from using profanity". This was all it took. I felt like a knife was stabbed into my heart. Long story short, I ended up working all night with this soldier. He had just transferred to our unit and was placed on duty. I went to the office of the First Sergeant and was informed that I would be working on duty with this new soldier. His name was Godwin...and I have always found this to be quite interesting; GOD WIN. I can look back now and see that his comment made me think and started the wheels turning inside of me. So, all that night, we sat together at a desk. He read his Bible and I asked him a few questions. The next morning I hurried home from work and woke Bridget up and told her what had happened. I went alone that morning in uniform in search of a church. I found an Assembly of God church, though I was looking for a Baptist church. That morning I ran to the altar and re-dedicated my life to God. It was in the winter and must have been very close to New Years as I recall sitting at home reading my Bible for New Year's eve. Bridget and I had a wonderful time in this church and were both very involved. She led music as I recall. About this time, my mother had become associated with Joseph Good and Hatikiva Ministries. It was in the late 80s. She was very excited about this new found awareness of the "Jewish Roots of Christianity" and shared what she was learning with me. She sent me a copy of a book entitled, "Rosh HaShanah and the Messianic Kingdom to Come" by Joseph Good. I read this book until it literally fell to pieces. I still have this book. It changed my life. At the time, Joe and his congregation had a weekly study in Texas. I was stationed in Fort Hood Texas. I drove there a couple of times and got hooked on this Quest for a better understanding of the authentic Jesus and formative Christianity. I began to study the feasts, wore out language study tools (Strong's, Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Brown Driver Briggs) and I read the Bible through from front to back several times over the next year. What began to emerge was a faith that was far removed from the faith that I grew up with. I could not get enough. Joe had another man there at his ministry that made an impact on me. His name was Andy Garza. He had been studying Hebrew and I was blown away at the things that he taught. I could sit for hours and listen to him. I knew that I wanted to learn more. Anything Jewish or in any way related to Hebrew thinking I devoured. He gave me a few gifts on one of my visits: Every Man's Talmud, an Encyclopedia of Jewish Religion, a copy of a treatise called, "Restoring Abrahamic Faith" by someone named James D. Tabor and a copy of a lecture by the same entitled, the Five Fundamental Flaws of Evangelical Christianity. The treatise was missing a couple of pages, but it was incredible. It was what my heart had sought. Here was the essence of Biblical Faith in less than 40 pages. The footnotes were numerous, but the proof was enough for me to realize that if one truly wanted to "follow Jesus" then he would look more Jewish than Christian. My life began to change. I saw things from a different perspective. I slowly began to adopt teachings that I had never even considered. I changed my diet. I decided to follow the teachings of Jesus in a real way. I wanted to know him in a real way, and not just say that I believed in him. In late 1991 I felt an irresistible pull to leave the Army. I loved the military and had been promoted and awarded and was on my way to sure stardom in the service. I had just completed BNCOC (Basic Non Commissioned Officer Course) and had won every award that they offered. I was the top graduate of the school, I won the Association of the Army's Most Outstanding NCO, and several other awards. When I returned to Fort Hood from the school I completed several other courses and was inducted into the Sergeant Audie Murphy Club. This is a big deal. All of this was going on and yet I could not help but know that it was time to move on. I can look back now and say for certain that I felt God calling me to leave the Army. In November we took leave and I put a resume in at the local job service office. I asked Andy Garza who was going to Israel to pray for direction for me. He informed me that when he was in Israel, he would put a prayer in between the rocks of the Temple's Western wall. To this day I do not know what he wrote on that note, but I think it helped. On December 2nd, 1991 I began my drive to Louisiana. Bridget and the three oldest had gone ahead of me. We have since had three more! I had no idea what we would do for money, but I knew that God was in control. This was before cell phones. I remember stopping at some point to call Bridget. She said that I had received a note from the Job Service and that I had an interview for a job at Georgia Pacific - a paper mill close to our new home. We were so excited. The interview was scheduled for December 4th. I never had a day off from work! I worked part time at a gas station for a few weeks until I started the new job at GP. I have been here ever since. My studies intensified. My job at GP was mindless. I operated some equipment, but it was easy to keep it running. My workmate was a fellow student of the Bible. We would spend 48 hours a week, most of it reading and discussing the Bible. I met a few people that were also interested in Bible Study and we began to meet at my house. For the most part I stuck with the Bible though I did read a couple of books during this time. I read, "Our Father Abraham" by Marvin Wilson and "Will the Real Jesus Please Stand" by Vendyl Jones. Another employee that I worked with was an avid sportsman. He would often tell me stories about hunting and fishing and I would tell him about God. We were not at all interested in the same things. One day he made a deal with me. He said that he would not talk huntin' and fishin' with me if I would quit preaching to him. Furthermore, he said he would give me his grandfather's number if I wanted to talk Bible. It seemed that his grandfather was as nutty as I was according to himJ. He had even translated his own copy of the NT since he didn't trust any translation. Now he had my attention! As it turned out, his grandfather lived right around the corner from me. Mr. Bordelon was in his 80s. I called him that very day and excitedly told him how I had come to get his number. He invited me over and I went that evening. When I arrived he quickly took me into his study where he had a stack of spiral bound notebooks. I asked him what he planned to do with them. He told me that God had promised that he would send someone to type them. After a few minutes I told him that I would take on the task. He asked me what I would charge him and I told him there would not be any charge, but that I would have to "squeeze it in" with my busy schedule. He agreed. It never crossed my mind that this might be a problem since I did not know how to type! So with a promise to complete the task and newly formed friendship I went home that night with the letters to the church in Thessalonica. I read them that night and started to type them. This process would take me a couple of years - five to be exact but perhaps more on that later. I had read Vendyl's book and so I had a burning desire to learn Hebrew. I called Vendyl's ministry and was shocked when he answered the phone. I told him why I had called and he asked me where I lived. I told him that I lived close to Baton Rouge Louisiana. I was surprised when he asked me if I was familiar with a certain street. I was! My wife's grandparents lived on that very street. He told me that a very good friend of his, named Johnny Powell lived there and would be more than happy to teach me Hebrew. It must have been 1992. I made the call and on my first off day, I drove to meet him. When I arrived at the home I was invited in. Johnny quickly got down to business. He had grown up Baptist, the son of a prominent preacher. He asked me if I was willing to put aside all that I had learned no matter what the consequences of that would be. I agreed. Would I be willing to give up cherished beliefs if the Hebrew Bible proved them to be false? I agreed to this as well. He made me feel somewhat better by reaffirming that I would be learning to read the Bible that Jesus had read. I could not wait to get started. He pointed to his bookshelf. On the shelf there were three Hebrew Bibles (Tanak). They were beautiful. He let me take one down and I was almost in tears as I held it in my hands and thumbed through its pages looking at the strange but beautiful script. He then made me put it back and said that I could not hold it again until I had passed all of the tests with suitable proficiency. He then gave me a couple of books and sent me on my way. We met weekly and would spend countless hours over the next couple of years in deep discussions. In February of 1994 I had successfully passed all of tests and so on a rainy cold night in Baton Rouge, in the study of my teacher he handed me my own copy of the Bible in Hebrew. I could not hold back the tears. Now I could know for myself. I no longer had to trust man. I had graduated! Amidst an occasional thunder I sat speechless with the man that had given the tools to "fish for myself". Meanwhile I was steady at work typing the NT of Mr. Bordelon. He and I also talked often. This too proved to be an education. As soon as I would turn over a book of the NT to its translator, he would double check my typing for errors and give me back the marked up pages which I would fix in my word processor. This seemed to go on endlessly, but I was continually learning and the more I typed, the more I began to question some of my former understandings. My home bible studies were fun. During this time I met Mark Loyd and Dennis Hartner. They were both working for an energy company and having heard of me, they showed up at my home one day. We spent hours talking and by the end of the conversation agreed to meet more frequently. Sometimes they would come to my home and sometimes I would meet them at one of theirs. We became best of friends. Dennis and I would often argue, but it was all for the cause of truth. One evening Dennis came by and asked me what I knew about Ephraim. I told him that Ephraim was a son of Joseph, but further than that was not sure what he was asking. He told me that he had become convinced that there was something more that we had missed. He said that understanding just who this Ephraim is would prove to be the key to understanding the Biblical revelation. In an effort to prove him wrong I stayed up all night reading every reference I could find. What I found was that he was truly on to something. By the end of the night I was re-thinking everything! When the sun came up the next day I was still awake. When the mail arrived at about 10:30, an envelope addressed to me had come. The returnee was named, Maurice Bartel. In the envelope were two drawings concerning Biblical Ephraim. I still carry these in my bag. The artist meant to show that the house of Israel, the lost tribes were known as Ephraim and that this group made up the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel for whom Yeshua had come. I was blown away! I quickly began to map this new information with my studies from the previous night and felt that things were beginning to fall into place. Had all of my studies brought me to a realization that many of those who currently were "Christians" were in fact descendants of the lost Israelites in a literal sense? After all, had not Yeshua himself said that he "came NOT but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel"? (Matthew 15:24; cf Jeremiah 50:6). And what about the New Covenant that was specifically promised to the House of Judah (the Jews) and the House of Israel (lost) [Jeremiah 31:31-34]? Could there be something here that had been hidden for centuries? All of my studies and my education gained from typing the NT began to come into focus. Was there a reason for all of this? A couple from Joe Good's congregation and friends of my mother (Roger and Betty Givin) had called me this same week. Betty told me that they would be coming through our town en route to her brother's house in North Carolina and she asked if they could stop in. I told them that we would love to have them and they agreed to spend the night. When she arrived I could not help but show her all that I was learning. I will never forget her face as I related this new found knowledge. Surely I had been granted special favor and had been shown something that no one had ever seen. When I finally took a breath, she said that she had something in her car that she had to show me. When she returned she had in her hand a paper written on front and back about the return of Israel. It was written by her brother. I learned at that moment that her brother was none other than James Tabor! What a small world! I never knew this though I had known Roger and Betty for years. She asked me to make a cassette tape of what I had just told her so that she could take it to him when she went to visit. I was nervous. What in the world would I say? Why would a distinguished scholar take the time to listen to some "nobody" stumble through some Bible verses on a cassette? I stayed up most of the night hitting the record button....talking for a few minutes and then erasing and starting over. The only way I can explain what I felt was that it would be like a young seminary student making a tape for Billy Graham. Nevertheless I made the tape and the next day Roger and Betty set off with the cargo. Within a few days, late one night while in my study (a small crowded room adjoined to my laundry room) the phone rang. I ran to pick it up so that the kids and Bridget would not wake up. I immediately recognized the voice. It was Dr. Tabor! I could not believe it. He was very complimentary of the tape and asked me questions about how I came to this. I told him and I remember how wonderful it felt that Professor Tabor would take the time and show interest in me. It changed my life. Back then I had a 2400 baud modem. Every day I was always checking for email. They came all the time. At work I would get faxes and Tabor and I sent hundreds back and forth. It would prove to be one of the best times of my life. We became very close and in June of 1995 I met him face to face at Roger and Betty's home in Texas. We studied all night together (Isaiah 40-66). Over the next several years, we continued in almost daily communication via fax, email and phone. Tabor had come across a Jewish organization (UIWU) that believed in the Hebrew Bible alone and in the restoration of all of Israel which by now we knew was the single most important point of Biblical teaching. This reunion, we had become convinced, would lead to the blessings of all nations and the realization of the Kingdom of God on earth. While Tabor and I were convinced that most of the "lost sheep" were in various forms of Christianity, David Horowitz was Jewish. James became very close with David. I read his book 33 Candles and this led to an in-depth study of the "Bible in the Hands of Its Creators" called by us the Blue Book. James would join up with David in the UIWU and in many ways brought new life to the organization. Most of its members had simply died off. Over the next several years we would wrestle with whether or not to start something new or build upon the original ideas espoused by David Horowitz. While we certainly did not agree with everything that had led to the founding of UIWU (some of the past was quite colorful), we found its charter to be amazing and fitting for any organization whose goal was to restore Torah Faith and bring about a restoration of the two houses. There were many other involved in this, but I can give more details later perhaps. In 1995, I went to Charlotte to be ordained as a Bible Teacher through the United Israel World Union along with two others; Ronnie Fulcher and Timothy Thompson. This event took place on the 24th of Kislev. Upon leaving that ceremony, I felt like I had been charged to go forth with a message, but alas I was a messenger without a congregation. I felt that in some way I needed to reach the group that was beginning to make the journey home. I still feel that this is my task. Not that I see myself as anyone important in the grand scheme of things, but as David Horowitz once said, I am a soldier sworn to a cause. I felt that I needed to formulate a set of beliefs that would allow me to continue to study and yet somehow connect with my roots. In one evening I typed out the following: What do I believe? I put my faith in the God of Jesus - commonly referred to as "the LORD", but known by the designation YHWH in the Hebrew Bible, and referred to by Jesus of Nazareth in the New Testament by the Aramaic term Abba / father. This God is one, and beside him there is no other, neither in heaven nor on earth. He is the Ancient of Days, El Shaddai, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I put my faith in the Bible that Jesus read - commonly referred to as the "Old Testament", but strictly and properly referred to as the Hebrew Bible or TaNaK, an acronym formed by the first letters of three Hebrew words used to designate the three main parts of the Hebrew Bible (Torah - Law, Neviim - the Prophets and Ketuvim - the Writings). I put my faith in the authentic teachings and mission of Jesus - to bring about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, to seek and save the lost sheep of the house of Israel (hitherto unaware of their true identity), and to do and teach the Torah of YHWH. What can I say? I am the composite of my experiences. I was raised by a God fearing woman who follows her heart and desires to be a servant of God. I was blessed with good teachers and teaching; my mother, my Granny (mother's mother), Joe Good, Andy Garza, Johnny Powell, James Tabor and many many more. I have learned the most when my cherished beliefs were put in the scales and weighed against the Biblical revelation. I am proud to be friends with those from whom I have learned. I have learned a lot, but still have much to learn. As long as Yehovah lets me breath I will continue to learn. I am still willing to throw everything away for the truth. My journey, though much abbreviated here is only beginning. I hope that those of you who are going through some troublesome times and a questioning of your faith would make the same commitment. This is not a request for you to follow me, but to follow God WITH me. Let's learn together. We will certainly have to rethink things as we go, and this includes James Tabor. He knows this and is willing to make the journey. He has spent his life thus far rethinking and re-evaluating. If I know him, and I think I do, he will live out his days on the quest. No matter what scholars discover through linguistic studies or with the spade I am willing to adapt. I want the truth and only the truth! To quote an ancient Prayer: Ancient Prayer From the cowardice that shrinks from new truths, >From the laziness that is content with half-truths, >From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, O God of truth, deliver us. There are many others out there that I could name which have contributed and continue to contribute to my learning that I did not mention in this brief note. I hope that you are not offended. I often learn from my students and am always looking for such opportunities. I could not fail to mention that I have spent more time with Brian Jones talking of these matters than all others put together I would suppose. He is the one who encouraged me to take things to the level that many of you are familiar with now. He has made the synagogue without walls possible. All of my learning goes nowhere if I cannot reach the masses. He has made this possible. Hanoch is a valued friend. He and I have often talked of reaching out and now we have a way to do this. Ralph and Becky Buntyn are some of my closest friends. They too have been most encouraging. Their collective experiences and wisdom have helped me in more ways than I can say. Dennis Jones is and has been a good companion along the way. JDavid Davis has been a close friend for many years. Of course all of my dear friends at Temple Sinai are more than brothers and sisters. They are friends and I have learned a great deal from them. They are family. This new family also includes those of you who live elsewhere. This path is not easy. The easy path is the one from which you came. If you seek a smooth way, then turn around and go back. I hope however that you will choose the road less traveled. It leads to life. The promise is to those that seek. Those that are not sick do not need a physician. I am here to help the sick. I seek this healing and restoration for me as well as for all of you. Will you join me? Consider this closely: I am and will continue to be associated with James Tabor. He is one of my closest friends on the planet and probably will be my whole life long. I believe in what the UIWU stands for and find it to be in line with the Biblical revelation. There is nothing to join here. You are free to leave. There is no hidden agenda. We may not always agree on all points. Tabor and I certainly do not agree on everything, but we still love and respect one another. I want to have that relationship with all of you. Who is in? I am honored that Joseph Good came to me to study the tribes. He is a gifted teacher of the Bible and has led many to Torah Faith. I look forward to many fruitful years working with the giants of the faith. I consider all of you to be teachers, even if you are not yet teaching. I began as a student of Joe and James. I still learn from them. Those of you that have learned from me have learned from them because I learned from them. A student is not above his teacher. It is enough that a student be like his teacher. I hope that I can attain that worthy goal. I hope that you can attain the same. Now let's dialogue! This note was sent to the dialogue list and copied to my mother on the 1st day of 2008 - the 23rd of Tevet 5768. Shalom, Ross ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/ba1bb57d/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Jan 1 16:10:02 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:10:02 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hebrew Study for 2008 Message-ID: <425B0FF5-E447-4871-BE02-5083B6B3CF38@earthlink.net> For those who might want to do a bit of Hebrew study in 2008 I have found one of the best ways is to absorb passages from the Hebrew Bible that have meaning and power rather than trying to read or memorize lists of isolated words out of context. Attached are some of my favorite verses. Once you learn the alphabet/ vowels you can read them, pronounce them, and even with just the help of the English begin to figure them out... Best, James -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hebrew Texts Tabor.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 11523 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/31e89370/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- From RNDAVAR at aol.com Tue Jan 1 16:15:50 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:15:50 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream Message-ID: I sent this to my mother. She sometimes sees things in dreams that are quite amazing. Shalom and welcome to the dialogue! Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/7de04906/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 1 16:44:56 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 16:44:56 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00a301c84cc7$eeb373c0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Vicki, Welcome to the ?Dialogue!? I don?t have anything of clarity to add to your dream, beyond what James has offered below, but just a thought in the back of my mind that has to do with ?fish? being connected to a mass ?multitude? of people. Remember when Yeshua told his discples to go out and teach, saying that he would make them ?fishers of men? Then there are several verses in the prophets relating to the return of the people back to G-d, where we a told that G-d would send out ?fishers? then hunters. I seem to remember that Ross had brought up a verse as well (which I cannot find right now) which he taught on some time ago that has to do with the Hebrew interpretation of our word ?fish? as being related to ?people? even multitudes of people There will always be those political and religious leaders (sitting at your table in your dream) that will be present in your life, but perhaps you, as James said, are to have a role in somehow ?gathering and saving the fish? as they appear before you. There is also a tradition in Judaism called ?Tachlich? which may or may not be related to your dream, but since it has to do with fish, I thought I would share it with you. Hanoch you can help me out on this if I get it wrong. It is a ceremony is done on the first day of Rosh haShannah after the afternoon prayers that has to do with casting bread into the water as based on the Micah 7:19, ?And Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.? One of the conditions is that it be a body of water that has ?fish,? if at all possible. I will quote from ?The Days of Awe,? by S.Y. Agnon in which he says regarding the Casting. ? And it is customary to go to a river where there are fish, because we are compared to fish suddenly caught in a net. So are we caught n the severe net of divine judgment, and gazing at the river contemplate T?shuvah. [Levush]? T?shuvah in case you are not familiar with the word, has to do with repentance and turning back to Hashem.. Another reason is givin in Eliyahu Zutta: we visit rivers with fish that the evil eye may not govern us, as it cannot govern fish, and that we may be fruitful and multiply like fish. And those who interpret metaphorically say: Just as fish have no eyebrows and their eyes are always open, so let the eye of Him who is on high always be open for our benefit.? Just a few thoughts. Maybe Ross or others can give the sources in the Tanack that I referenced above. Thanks for sharing with us, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:18 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fish Dream Vickie, I am neither a "prophet nor the son of a prophet," much less an interpreter of dreams, but from my reading and experience there seem to be two kinds on a human level, those that are more or less nonsense (to our interpretation at least) and have to do with our brains processing and filing away information, and those that in symbolic ways are playing out scenarios in our lives and experiences (fears, hopes, wishes, etc.). Beyond these, according to the Bible at least, are those dreams that come from "outside" and are ways the higher/other side communicates with us, as Numbers 12:6 mentions. I would call these "message" dreams, and sometimes they even come when one is not in a "deep sleep," almost like a waking vision... Determining the difference between the two kinds, that is the personal/psychological and the message type can be difficult. This dream could be a symbolic way your own mind/self is expressing itself, or it could be some kind of message. Either way, I doubt if the fish, the main element of the dream, are "real" fish, but I think they likely stand for something. I think that there are precisely 6 people at the table is important, since with you added there would be seven. Since you have catered the meal it seems you are somehow responsible for the fish being there, but apparently you do not expect them, but still somehow "bring them to the table" in that sense. Since they are "live" they are not really good I think, but stand for something the rest of the group, who are "heads" and in authority, will not accept. You placing them in the bowl shows that you value them and want them to live not die... I think the fish stand for some group or class of things, whether people or not I have no idea, that you somehow save and others are willing to reject... Not sure this helps and I could here take wild guesses, but this sort of thing is just too hard to figure out without knowing you, what you are experiencing, going through, etc. Thanks for sharing... James On Jan 1, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Vickie Pilkerton wrote: Hello All, This is my first posting to "Dailogue". I am trying to understand a dream that I had and hope maybe someone has some insight. My husband and I are new (1 year) to study and the following of Torah. So much to learn, but are loving every step! In my dream I am sitting at the head of a large round table meeting with 6 people, none of whom I know personally. They are heads of religious, political and legal organizations. The meeting is lengthy and at lunch time we stop to eat. I have catered a meal for everyone present. Servers bring out a plate full of food, but on it is included a large, live, light-blue, transparent, "jelly" like fish. In each fish can be seen 1-3 more, smaller, live fish. Most at the table do not want to eat it, so I place them all in a large bowl. The bowl cannot contain all of them and they are jumping out of the top of the bowl because of overflow. Shortly after lunch is over, my husband and a friend (who is a supporter/teacher) join us for the meeting and they take over the proceedings. ~The End~ Today I find out that there is a traditional Jewish meal often served for Shabbat which consist of a Gefilte fish (Yiddish : ???????? ????) . Which are poached fish patties or balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, most carp (common carp ). They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. In traditional recipes for gefilte fish, the fish is first deboned, often while still at the market. Next, the fish is ground into a paste along with eggs, onions and flour meal or matzoh meal and then stuffed back into the skin of the deboned fish, giving it the name gefilte (filled or stuffed). Doe's anyone see any connection or meaning in this kind of fish to my dream? Thanks! Lou I _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/503e0640/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Tue Jan 1 17:41:09 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:41:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream In-Reply-To: <744798.69773.qm@web58302.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <998376.72509.qm@web57101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hello Vickie, Very glad that you have chosen to join our dialogue. I am certainly not an interpreter of dreams.......so I can't help you, but it is quite an interesting one. I am from Alabama and have personally been on this "path" for almost 3 years. Did I miss you introduction? Where are you from? Please share.......it is always so interesting to learn where everyone lives!! Shalom, Tammy Vickie Pilkerton wrote: Thank you John for responding. It is a blessing to know you actually read what I posted and took time to answer. Happy New Year to you and yours also! Vickie carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: Hi Vickie, Welcome to the dialogue. I hope it is a blessing to you. Being from New York I am very familiar with Gefilte fish. I like it very much. Unfortunately I have nothing for you on your dream. I'm not an interpreter and I am very wary of those that claim to be regularly. I have been given a couple of interpretations in the past but it was never anything dramatic, I just kinda, sorts knew what they meant. Nothing is jumping out at me here (no pun intended). But I'm sure someone on this list can shed some light on it. Happy new year to you and yours. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Vickie Pilkerton : -------------- Hello All, This is my first posting to "Dailogue". I am trying to understand a dream that I had and hope maybe someone has some insight. My husband and I are new (1 year) to study and the following of Torah. So much to learn, but are loving every step! In my dream I am sitting at the head of a large round table meeting with 6 people, none of whom I know personally. They are heads of religious, political and legal organizations. The meeting is lengthy and at lunch time we stop to eat. I have catered a meal for everyone present. Servers bring out a plate full of food, but on it is included a large, live, light-blue, transparent, "jelly" like fish. In each fish can be seen 1-3 more, smaller, live fish. Most at the table do not want to eat it, so I place them all in a large bowl. The bowl cannot contain all of them and they are jumping out of the top of the bowl because of overflow. Shortly after lunch is over, my husband and a friend (who is a supporter/teacher) join us for the meeting and they take over the proceedings. ~The End~ Today I find out that there is a traditional Jewish meal often served for Shabbat which consist of a Gefilte fish (Yiddish: ???????? ????) . Which are poached fish patties or balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, most carp (common carp). They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. In traditional recipes for gefilte fish, the fish is first deboned, often while still at the market. Next, the fish is ground into a paste along with eggs, onions and flour meal or matzoh meal and then stuffed back into the ski n of the deboned fish, giving it the name gefilte (filled or stuffed). Doe's anyone see any connection or meaning in this kind of fish to my dream? Thanks! Lou I --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search._______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/76c5c34b/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 22:53:13 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 22:53:13 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] World leader contacts ??? In-Reply-To: <8CA1AB77771C24C-80C-187F@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0801010803r6c48f380p558bb8d76882c2f8@mail.gmail.com> <8CA1AB77771C24C-80C-187F@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801012053r7b5dc013r5672df34e33560ed@mail.gmail.com> Thank you. I have been mirroring your life in more ways than one. What can we do but trust in Him and move forward, even if we don't always know where forward is. Kim On Jan 1, 2008 12:01 PM, wrote: > Hey Kim - > > Sorry you've had a rough week, sounds like you've been mirroring my > life! And trust me, you don't want to do that... > > But always know that you've got friends here :-) > > The Hebrew you're looking for is: Shalom L'Kulchem > > Best regards, > > Hanoch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: kim alvarado > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:03 am > Subject: [Dialogue] World leader contacts ??? > > Hello all, > > A while back I promised to post contact information for world leaders. I > found some information on the internet fairly quickly, but wanted to verify > first before I shared it. I have decided to go ahead and post what I've > found and whoever is interested can verify the contacts that they need. I > apologize for not taking care of this, but I simply have too much on my > shoulders right now. > Here are the links: the cia - > https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/world-leaders-1/index.html > the pages on the Temple Institute site - > http://www.templeinstitute.org/antiquities/antiquities_law.htm#faxes > > http://www.templeinstitute.org/contact-info.htm > > I have also attached a word document with addresses I copied off a website > that I can no longer find. > > Shalom to all (how do I say the "to all" in Hebrew?) > > Kim > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail > ! > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080101/a29292be/attachment.html From wokdelight at yahoo.com Wed Jan 2 06:46:09 2008 From: wokdelight at yahoo.com (Vickie Pilkerton) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 04:46:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <384609.30711.qm@web58310.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Thank you for responding, I appreciate all and any input. Vickie RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: I sent this to my mother. She sometimes sees things in dreams that are quite amazing. Shalom and welcome to the dialogue! Ross Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org --------------------------------- See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. _______________________________________________ --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/3241f583/attachment.html From wokdelight at yahoo.com Wed Jan 2 06:47:49 2008 From: wokdelight at yahoo.com (Vickie Pilkerton) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 04:47:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream, P.S. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <706567.30445.qm@web58310.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I too thought it was more a symbolic thing than something literal. Thanks! Vickie James Tabor wrote: Vicki, Regarding the fish I meant to type "they are not really FOOD..." I think they are probably "good" or positive in the dream... Bad typo! James On Jan 1, 2008, at 4:18 PM, James Tabor wrote: > they are not really good _______________________________________________ --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/90f805e3/attachment.html From wokdelight at yahoo.com Wed Jan 2 07:04:53 2008 From: wokdelight at yahoo.com (Vickie Pilkerton) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 05:04:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream In-Reply-To: <00a301c84cc7$eeb373c0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <292806.75092.qm@web58306.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Betty, Thank you for bringing more light to my dream. Much of what you had to say makes a lot of sense. I am sure with the input I have received from everyone that has responded that I will be able to put each bit of information together and it will make a whole picture and the meaning will be clear. Vickie Betty Givin wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Vicki, Welcome to the ?Dialogue!? I don?t have anything of clarity to add to your dream, beyond what James has offered below, but just a thought in the back of my mind that has to do with ?fish? being connected to a mass ?multitude? of people. Remember when Yeshua told his discples to go out and teach, saying that he would make them ?fishers of men? Then there are several verses in the prophets relating to the return of the people back to G-d, where we a told that G-d would send out ?fishers? then hunters. I seem to remember that Ross had brought up a verse as well (which I cannot find right now) which he taught on some time ago that has to do with the Hebrew interpretation of our word ?fish? as being related to ?people? even multitudes of people There will always be those political and religious leaders (sitting at your table in your dream) that will be present in your life, but perhaps you, as James said, are to have a role in somehow ?gathering and saving the fish? as they appear before you. There is also a tradition in Judaism called ?Tachlich? which may or may not be related to your dream, but since it has to do with fish, I thought I would share it with you. Hanoch you can help me out on this if I get it wrong. It is a ceremony is done on the first day of Rosh haShannah after the afternoon prayers that has to do with casting bread into the water as based on the Micah 7:19, ?And Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.? One of the conditions is that it be a body of water that has ?fish,? if at all possible. I will quote from ?The Days of Awe,? by S.Y. Agnon in which he says regarding the Casting. ? And it is customary to go to a river where there are fish, because we are compared to fish suddenly caught in a net. So are we caught n the severe net of divine judgment, and gazing at the river contemplate T?shuvah. [Levush]? T?shuvah in case you are not familiar with the word, has to do with repentance and turning back to Hashem.. Another reason is givin in Eliyahu Zutta: we visit rivers with fish that the evil eye may not govern us, as it cannot govern fish, and that we may be fruitful and multiply like fish. And those who interpret metaphorically say: Just as fish have no eyebrows and their eyes are always open, so let the eye of Him who is on high always be open for our benefit.? Just a few thoughts. Maybe Ross or others can give the sources in the Tanack that I referenced above. Thanks for sharing with us, Betty/Elisheva --------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:18 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fish Dream Vickie, I am neither a "prophet nor the son of a prophet," much less an interpreter of dreams, but from my reading and experience there seem to be two kinds on a human level, those that are more or less nonsense (to our interpretation at least) and have to do with our brains processing and filing away information, and those that in symbolic ways are playing out scenarios in our lives and experiences (fears, hopes, wishes, etc.). Beyond these, according to the Bible at least, are those dreams that come from "outside" and are ways the higher/other side communicates with us, as Numbers 12:6 mentions. I would call these "message" dreams, and sometimes they even come when one is not in a "deep sleep," almost like a waking vision... Determining the difference between the two kinds, that is the personal/psychological and the message type can be difficult. This dream could be a symbolic way your own mind/self is expressing itself, or it could be some kind of message. Either way, I doubt if the fish, the main element of the dream, are "real" fish, but I think they likely stand for something. I think that there are precisely 6 people at the table is important, since with you added there would be seven. Since you have catered the meal it seems you are somehow responsible for the fish being there, but apparently you do not expect them, but still somehow "bring them to the table" in that sense. Since they are "live" they are not really good I think, but stand for something the rest of the group, who are "heads" and in authority, will not accept. You placing them in the bowl shows that you value them and want them to live not die... I think the fish stand for some group or class of things, whether people or not I have no idea, that you somehow save and others are willing to reject... Not sure this helps and I could here take wild guesses, but this sort of thing is just too hard to figure out without knowing you, what you are experiencing, going through, etc. Thanks for sharing... James On Jan 1, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Vickie Pilkerton wrote: Hello All, This is my first posting to "Dailogue". I am trying to understand a dream that I had and hope maybe someone has some insight. My husband and I are new (1 year) to study and the following of Torah. So much to learn, but are loving every step! In my dream I am sitting at the head of a large round table meeting with 6 people, none of whom I know personally. They are heads of religious, political and legal organizations. The meeting is lengthy and at lunch time we stop to eat. I have catered a meal for everyone present. Servers bring out a plate full of food, but on it is included a large, live, light-blue, transparent, "jelly" like fish. In each fish can be seen 1-3 more, smaller, live fish. Most at the table do not want to eat it, so I place them all in a large bowl. The bowl cannot contain all of them and they are jumping out of the top of the bowl because of overflow. Shortly after lunch is over, my husband and a friend (who is a supporter/teacher) join us for the meeting and they take over the proceedings. ~The End~ Today I find out that there is a traditional Jewish meal often served for Shabbat which consist of a Gefilte fish (Yiddish: ???????? ????) . Which are poached fish patties or balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, most carp (common carp). They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. In traditional recipes for gefilte fish, the fish is first deboned, often while still at the market. Next, the fish is ground into a paste along with eggs, onions and flour meal or matzoh meal and then stuffed back into the skin of the deboned fish, giving it the name gefilte (filled or stuffed). Doe's anyone see any connection or meaning in this kind of fish to my dream? Thanks! Lou I --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/287ffe83/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 07:10:46 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 07:10:46 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Message-ID: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> Dear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in his journey. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom, Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/bff3c011/attachment.html From wokdelight at yahoo.com Wed Jan 2 07:32:19 2008 From: wokdelight at yahoo.com (Vickie Pilkerton) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 05:32:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Fish Dream In-Reply-To: <998376.72509.qm@web57101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <891423.12310.qm@web58315.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi Tammy, Thank you for the warm welcome to "Dialogue". My husband and I are both from Lake Charles, La. We currently live in a small town near Baton Rouge, La. BUT......we sold our home this week and are planning to move back to Lake Charles in the next few weeks. Both of our families, two of our grown children and all four of our grand children live there and we have missed them SO MUCH and are anxious to get back home!!!! Our youngest son, living in Dallas, Tx., was the first to learn of and introduce us to our "Hebraic Roots", a little over a year ago. We were so shocked and thrilled at the same time as he shared with us the "Feasts" and how they related to us today and the future! It was at that point that we were hooked and have been on a journey to continue to learn more ever since. We, like so many others, have had a lot of tradition and untruths to unlearn and are still in the process of. We are so thankful for the powerful and revelatory teachings available through Ross Nichols, Joseph Good, Michael Rood, Eddie Chumney, Thomas Lancaster and Monte Judah. I too love learning where people are from and of their journey back to the roots of their faith! Shalom, Vickie Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote: Hello Vickie, Very glad that you have chosen to join our dialogue. I am certainly not an interpreter of dreams.......so I can't help you, but it is quite an interesting one. I am from Alabama and have personally been on this "path" for almost 3 years. Did I miss you introduction? Where are you from? Please share.......it is always so interesting to learn where everyone lives!! Shalom, Tammy Vickie Pilkerton wrote: Thank you John for responding. It is a blessing to know you actually read what I posted and took time to answer. Happy New Year to you and yours also! Vickie carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: Hi Vickie, Welcome to the dialogue. I hope it is a blessing to you. Being from New York I am very familiar with Gefilte fish. I like it very much. Unfortunately I have nothing for you on your dream. I'm not an interpreter and I am very wary of those that claim to be regularly. I have been given a couple of interpretations in the past but it was never anything dramatic, I just kinda, sorts knew what they meant. Nothing is jumping out at me here (no pun intended). But I'm sure someone on this list can shed some light on it. Happy new year to you and yours. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Vickie Pilkerton : -------------- Hello All, This is my first posting to "Dailogue". I am trying to understand a dream that I had and hope maybe someone has some insight. My husband and I are new (1 year) to study and the following of Torah. So much to learn, but are loving every step! In my dream I am sitting at the head of a large round table meeting with 6 people, none of whom I know personally. They are heads of religious, political and legal organizations. The meeting is lengthy and at lunch time we stop to eat. I have catered a meal for everyone present. Servers bring out a plate full of food, but on it is included a large, live, light-blue, transparent, "jelly" like fish. In each fish can be seen 1-3 more, smaller, live fish. Most at the table do not want to eat it, so I place them all in a large bowl. The bowl cannot contain all of them and they are jumping out of the top of the bowl because of overflow. Shortly after lunch is over, my husband and a friend (who is a supporter/teacher) join us for the meeting and they take over the proceedings. ~The End~ Today I find out that there is a traditional Jewish meal often served for Shabbat which consist of a Gefilte fish (Yiddish: ???????? ????) . Which are poached fish patties or balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, most carp (common carp). They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. In traditional recipes for gefilte fish, the fish is first deboned, often while still at the market. Next, the fish is ground into a paste along with eggs, onions and flour meal or matzoh meal and then stuffed back into the ski n of the deboned fish, giving it the name gefilte (filled or stuffed). Doe's anyone see any connection or meaning in this kind of fish to my dream? Thanks! Lou I --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search._______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search._______________________________________________ --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/fbff7c2a/attachment.html From paul at cometozion.org Wed Jan 2 08:32:05 2008 From: paul at cometozion.org (Paul) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:32:05 +0200 Subject: [Dialogue] Top 10 Predictions for 2008 Message-ID: <007501c84d4c$41216520$7001a8c0@Graphics1> Thanks to Dolly TOP TEN PREDICTIONS FOR 2008 1. The Bible will still have all the answers. 2. Prayer will still work. 3. The Holy Spirit will still move. 4. God will still inhabit the praises of His people. 5. There will still be God-anointed preaching. 6. There will still be singing of praise to God. 7. God will still pour out blessings upon His people. 8. There will still be room at the Cross 9. Yeshua will still love you. 10. Yeshua will still save the lost. Blessings In HIS service, All day Everyday Paul Sherbow Director Come to Zion Ministries Inspiredfaith Broadcasting www.cometozion.org www.inspiredfaith.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/daa6f8b3/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 10:22:57 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:22:57 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Message-ID: <1d04e0430801020822k69b75307j6c2bd8a0b93c439b@mail.gmail.com> Dear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in his journey. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom, Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/ea1d9e43/attachment.html From paul at cometozion.org Wed Jan 2 10:41:01 2008 From: paul at cometozion.org (Paul) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:41:01 +0200 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <009d01c84d5e$4433a900$7001a8c0@Graphics1> Shalom Denny Your posting tears at the heart. This is not a singular occurrence, unfortunately. It may not be the same road your son has taken but you are not alone in what you are going through right now. I can only relate to you a story I was told by a Pastor. His son was into about everything negative you can think of. In the end his son ended up being arrested. The Pastor prayed and pleaded with the Lord to straighten out his son. One day he received an e-mail ad about another leader who was coming to his town to hold a counseling conference for parents with problem children and children who have walked away from the Lord. The Pastor telling me this said he was the first to sign up and on the day of the opening of the conference he showed up an hour early to get a good seat. Finally the conference started and the Pastor leading the conference came out on stage, opened the conference with prayer and then asked for everyone to get out pen and paper, he wanted them to write down the way to handle this problem In GREAT anticipation my friend said he was waiting with excitement. The conference leader said, write this down, "Get them through it" my friend started to get upset, this was all he thought? The Pastor leading the conference said " This is all we can do, now think about it, this the same way our Father waits for us to return to Him. There are two things we as parents must do, Just as the Lord does for us, show them unconditional love and keep unconditional communication open with them. Our Father does the same with us and He gets us through the tough times and the times we have turned away from, the same way." I wish I had something more but this is all I can offer. Blessings In HIS service, All day Everyday Paul Sherbow Director Come to Zion Ministries Inspiredfaith Broadcasting www.cometozion.org www.inspiredfaith.org _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 15:11 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Dear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in his journey. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom, Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/05ccc1c7/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Jan 2 10:44:49 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:44:49 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Message-ID: Dear Denny and family: As one that has been near the place as your son appears to be I will offer a few thoughts. Textual criticism, and critical historical speculation as I have had to learn is a slippery slope. In one sense it has lead some to lose all faith or become an agnostic, or in my case to fall into doubt. I don't know what books your son has read by textual and historical critical scholarsl, but there are a great many books written from a historical perspective that if a reader follows uncritically will destroy any and all faith in the NT writings. Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet who misunderstood, and thought he was the one to usher in the kingdom of God. The Apostles taught a scandalous message - Christ crucified. Paul a heretic who was out to destroy the Torah of God, and begin a new religion, and on an on it goes. Being widely read on all sides of the issues I was thrown into doubt in what to believe, or to believe anything, even to the place to ask does God exist? I had to get honest in what I presumed I knew verses what could be proven, and when I gave up a great many presumptions I was rattled and shaken to the core of my being. Then I realized I did not have the market on reading my own presumptions into the NT texts, all do, scholars included. It was like standing naked my ego crushed and having to face that I had spoken things with swelling vanity. I had to begin over again, like being born again, again. I had to realize I was not there in late second temple Judaism and nether were the text or historical critical scholars that I had read in literally dozens of their books. Everyone has an agenda whether realized or not. We read into the texts far more than can be read out of them. Those of the branchiate movement were living what they were experiencing. The wrote that they saw the holy man from Galilee who had died, brought back to life by God. Now, not being there, and they were, who am I am standing nearly two-thousands years removed to stick my puny head up high, and claim they did not see the risen messiah and spent time with him before he went skyward out of their sight. In any case I observed that liberal scholars build mountains out of mole-hills, and the mountains they build is no more than speculations that wind up being factual.. Whether the apostles or disciples had every last word or thought correct, is not a major point for me now. If they did not observe what they report they did, they would have be the greatest deceivers of all time. As a seasoned businessman who built a successful company with some good thinking helpers it takes planning and a good many meetings to make things work. The Apostles would have had to spend countless hours to pull off this great deception. Their purpose - to proclaim how God is redeeming the world through the faith of this anointed one. The first problem this anointed one had been crucified and hung on a tree by the Romans, and laid in a tomb dead, dead. They will need to solve the problem. Well, lets get together at least 500 people who will be willing to lie and testify they saw the man who had been put into the tomb dead but now walking around alive. But what's in it for those willing to lie? Do they pay them off, or promise high level positions in this movement they plan to keep going? And so, I realized since it is clear that these apostles and disciples had for the most part memorized the Torah, Prophets, and writings, observed miracles in the historical ministry of Jesus, and even at their own hands. Maybe they missed the times in which they were living, and for whatever reason God delayed the establishment of his kingdom on the earth. But so what? To observe a dead man walking and alive again cannot be overlooked. And so from doubt at the lowest level of my life, and on my face before the Most High God, I got my faith back. Now I read with the understanding that these scholars that brought me to the brink of losing all faith, make mountains of information built upon speculation and assumptions, and since they did not experience what these apostles and disciples did, they think they did not experience them either. How do they know since they were not there? And It seems I have come to a middle pathway - I laid down my books both liberal and conservative and everything in between, discounted where it is clear that Greek scribes altered certain texts, and poured over the NT texts hour and hours on end. You spend enough time with fakes you can figure them out. I can't find a single text in the NT where I could catch them in a lie. It all begin in the enlightenment and they found that God is dead. Then from textual and historical criticism we have come in liberal study to discover Jesus is dead, and did not rise at all. But since we were not there walking side by side with those that say they saw him alive, how can we know he did not rise? And so, I chose to believe their witness, over all the books that say otherwise. When they get through debunking the New Testament, no worry more yet to do, they can tear down the so-called old Testament. I have only said my piece on liberal scholarship, but my take on conservative scholarship fares no better. And so following my friend Ross's admonition, take nothing here as dogmatism it is just my opinion. I don't know if this is any help to you Denny, but I do have some idea of how your son got to the place he is. As they say, done that and been there. Take care and praying on behalf of you dear son. Take care Clyde **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/2793aff0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Denny Johnson" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 07:10:46 -0600 Size: 7720 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/2793aff0/attachment.mht From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 2 11:40:59 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:40:59 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Message-ID: <010220081740.20627.477BCCA700014C420000509322230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Denny, I don't know that I can add much to help beyond what Clyde and Paul have already said but here are my thoughts. This is what I meant awhile ago when I spoke about putting down stakes before venturing off into knowledge. The most fundamental beliefs that we hold will never be provable by science and reason, I believe that very strongly (and I run nuclear reactors for a living). This is the basis of faith. The problem is that if we don't clearly define what it is that we hold true by faith and faith alone, before we venture off into knowledgeable pursuits, we will not be able to recognize when our faith is being challenged. If we can't recognize it, then we can't meet the challenge and therfore our faith will most likely be undermined before we even know it. That doesn't mean that our faith in what we hold true cannot be changed, but if it is, it is best we do it consciously because it is very hard to find our way back otherwise. Of course this doen't help us much going forward with your son. I have only two things to offer here. The first has to do with yours son's interactions with the orthodox teachers. My question would be whether they beileve that Jewish Law began with Jacob or with Abraham or Noah or Adam? God does not change. He chose the Jews to carry the light to the rest of mankind, not claim it as thier own (Hanoch, you once asked us what we would have our big brother Jacob do. This is my response - stop hiding the light under his own basket). The second thing has to do with your son's statement about knowing enough to destroy anyone's faith. I have heard that many times before and I mean no offense here but I think it is probably the most arrogant words I have ever herard anyone utter. No-one and I mean no-one can change anothers faith unles that person allows them to, if they could it would not be much of a faith would it? This is the principle behind Yeshua's parable of the mustard seed. If faith is strong enough it does not take much for it to take root and grow. I don't know if that helps or hinders but it is all I have for now. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Denny Johnson" : -------------- Dear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in his jo urney. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom, Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/0bef02d0/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 2 12:40:03 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 13:40:03 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Top 10 Predictions for 2008 In-Reply-To: <007501c84d4c$41216520$7001a8c0@Graphics1> References: <007501c84d4c$41216520$7001a8c0@Graphics1> Message-ID: <8CA1B8605FDD2E3-A94-2A5@WEBMAIL-MC17.sysops.aol.com> Hi Paul - ?? Since, as a Jew, I do not "believe" in Yeshua, and am not looking for him to 'save' me - what winds up happening (at the end of days) to people like me? ?? Toda, ??????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Paul To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 9:32 am Subject: [Dialogue] Top 10 Predictions for 2008 Thanks to Dolly ? TOP TEN PREDICTIONS FOR 2008 ? 1. The Bible will still have all the answers. 2. Prayer will still work. 3. The Holy Spirit will still move. 4. God will still inhabit the praises of His people. 5. There will still be God-anointed preaching. 6. There will still be singing of praise to God. 7. God will still pour out blessings upon His people. 8. There will still be room at the Cross 9. Yeshua will still love you. 10. Yeshua will still save the lost. ? Blessings ? In HIS service, All day Everyday ? Paul Sherbow Director Come to Zion Ministries Inspiredfaith Broadcasting ? www.cometozion.org www.inspiredfaith.org ? _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/1c1e3f73/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 13:01:58 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:01:58 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Top 10 Predictions for 2008 In-Reply-To: <8CA1B8605FDD2E3-A94-2A5@WEBMAIL-MC17.sysops.aol.com> References: <007501c84d4c$41216520$7001a8c0@Graphics1> <8CA1B8605FDD2E3-A94-2A5@WEBMAIL-MC17.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801021101x781e92cdl2e568c31b1ec119b@mail.gmail.com> Hey Hanoch, Happy New Year to you! Did you ever find an artist? I was hoping maybe you also could weigh in on my Faith Crisis thread. You have a lot of wisdom. Shalom, Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/2002d839/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 2 13:20:15 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:20:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Top 10 Predictions for 2008 In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801021101x781e92cdl2e568c31b1ec119b@mail.gmail.com> References: <007501c84d4c$41216520$7001a8c0@Graphics1> <8CA1B8605FDD2E3-A94-2A5@WEBMAIL-MC17.sysops.aol.com> <1d04e0430801021101x781e92cdl2e568c31b1ec119b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CA1B8BA3223674-A94-5E0@WEBMAIL-MC17.sysops.aol.com> Hi Denny - ?? Still tracking down an artist, but more importantly - a very happy and healthy 2008 for you and the family.? I will try to weigh in, but I am in the midst of some work crisis right now....please understand.? I will try to write as soon as I can.? Later tonight if possible. ?? Hang in there bro, ????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Denny Johnson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 2:01 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Top 10 Predictions for 2008 Hey Hanoch, Happy New Year to you! Did you ever find an artist? I was hoping maybe you also could weigh in on my Faith Crisis thread. You have a lot of wisdom. Shalom, Denny _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/6c2b8cfe/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Jan 2 13:59:57 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:59:57 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Word for today Message-ID: <200801021959.m02Jxrik017473@mail136c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/28d1351b/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 14:36:10 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:36:10 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Word for today In-Reply-To: <200801021959.m02Jxrik017473@mail136c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200801021959.m02Jxrik017473@mail136c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801021236j64161a6fte89a77cef98a0ad@mail.gmail.com> Amen, Steve! As I was reflecting on your word for the day, the thought of Hashem the creator separating the waters from the land came to mind. That means he also created the river beds to contain and direct the rivers flow. If, as the creation of God, we are made contain the flow of Hashem's blessings and direct them where they are needed, then that is what we should be and do. As you said, "through all the traditions, ism's and religions of man" that try to restrain and redirect in many ways, the flow of G-d. "Restore our fortunes O Lord..." May it be so. Thanks Steve, Shalom, Denny On Jan 2, 2008 1:59 PM, Steve Mathe wrote: > All, > The "Word" for today that am submitting for all, may I suggest to pray > along these lines, (for it was an answer to prayer this morning) is Psalm > 126:4: > > *"Restore our fortunes O LORD, like the watercourses in the Negev." > > *It is a perfect answer to our overall questing, to find our way home > through the traditions, isms, religions, and isms of man... we need Divine > Guidance to lead us, as ancient Israel was led through the wilderness of > old.... the rest of the Psalm is appropriate too, ... this verse needs to be > our common prayer, and we shall find the way for each one of us to return to > and & / or turn to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Let's do it all, > and see how God will answer us all in pointing us in the right direction > individually and collectively. > > Steve > > Ps. > May I suggest that we all pray about and alongside "the Word for today" > that we are submitting." It will speed our way, and be a testimony of God's > Guidance for us. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/cba3a661/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Wed Jan 2 16:04:27 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:04:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Denny ! The 7 Laws of Noah do come from the Torah. It is what Noah, Abraham and all Jew's lived by until they become the chosen, or covenanted people & received the 10 words or commandments. Many Rabbi's teach that a gentile who tries to keep the Jewish Law is stealing from them & should keep the Noahide Laws. Its is even in the N T,Acts Chap 15, where they list , I think 5 of the 7 Laws. And again elsewhere in Acts. When I started my search we based most of our learning on the 7 major covenants that God made with all flesh and with Israel in there time. I'm not sure what your son has in mind when he says he could destroy someone's faith with what he knows, but he is certainly wrong in even thinking of that. He should explain what the Torah teaches, to both Gentile & his chosen people. As it says in the N.T. Listen to the Rabbis, for they sit in Moses seat. BUT don't do as they do-------. Not all are good ones???? Your son is in good hands as a Noahide, but his thinking is off . Have him continue in this journey but study & learn more. Its out there. In fact there is a conference coming up concerning Noahides???? James????? has it. Dick L Subject: A Crisis of Faith Dear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in his journey. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom, Denny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/52bd67f5/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 16:06:08 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:06:08 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <010220081740.20627.477BCCA700014C420000509322230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <010220081740.20627.477BCCA700014C420000509322230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801021406k59aad07dp19962652f17f5ee5@mail.gmail.com> Paul, Clyde, John and others who I hope will be responding, Thank you Paul for your compassion and prayer. Clyde, thank you for your personalization of this by sharing your own story. That really sounds much like what my son is going through. He has already warned me not to go down this path many times. I will be careful. I only trust and pray that he, like you, will find his way. I know he believes that there is a God. It seems like he is trying to find his God given identity. We are patient and being on this new path realize that we have more questions than we do answers. Thank you for your very thoughtful comments. John, I have to agree with you about our son's comments seeming quite arrogant. I think youthful knowledge often leads to that. But if you knew him, he seems anything but arrogant. He and hsi wife are the most humble and tender of people I have ever met. If only more lived like them. My wife told me that she was listening to Dennis Prager the other day, (one of her favorites) and he said something about the dangers of having too much education. I am reminded of what Yeshua said about the faith of a little child. Part of me wants that simple trusting faith and yet I know that it is easy to fall into great error when we don't study as one approved (whatever that means). As far as what rabbis he was consulting, I don't remember any names other than one of them was in Israel who had a book that our son wanted. He wouldn't send it to him unless he would convert. That disappointed him. For others who might be reading this thread, I know that there are many out here who have converted to Judaism and I believe your stories might be closely related to our son's experiences. I am not looking for any one-sided viewpoint. I really want to hear from all sides so I can better understand the things that were challenges, discouragements and disapointments to you in your quest for truth that led you to where you are today. I have asked Hanoch to weigh in on this also from his unique perspectives as my Jewish brother. Please everyone, don't be afraid to weigh in on this thread. It is not for debate but more for perspective for us to understand and know all the sides of this situation and be able to effectively be of encouragement to our son. Still wanting more information for the rest of you. Shalom, Denny On Jan 2, 2008 11:40 AM, wrote: > Hey Denny, > > I don't know that I can add much to help beyond what Clyde and Paul have > already said but here are my thoughts. > > This is what I meant awhile ago when I spoke about putting down stakes > before venturing off into knowledge. The most fundamental beliefs that we > hold will never be provable by science and reason, I believe that very > strongly (and I run nuclear reactors for a living). This is the basis of > faith. The problem is that if we don't clearly define what it is that we > hold true by faith and faith alone, before we venture off into knowledgeable > pursuits, we will not be able to recognize when our faith is being > challenged. If we can't recognize it, then we can't meet the challenge and > therfore our faith will most likely be undermined before we even know it. > That doesn't mean that our faith in what we hold true cannot be changed, but > if it is, it is best we do it consciously because it is very hard to find > our way back otherwise. > > Of course this doen't help us much going forward with your son. I have > only two things to offer here. The first has to do with yours son's > interactions with the orthodox teachers. My question would be whether they > beileve that Jewish Law began with Jacob or with Abraham or Noah or Adam? > God does not change. He chose the Jews to carry the light to the rest of > mankind, not claim it as thier own (Hanoch, you once asked us what we would > have our big brother Jacob do. This is my response - stop hiding the light > under his own basket). > > The second thing has to do with your son's statement about knowing enough > to destroy anyone's faith. I have heard that many times before and I mean > no offense here but I think it is probably the most arrogant words I have > ever herard anyone utter. No-one and I mean no-one can change anothers > faith unles that person allows them to, if they could it would not be much > of a faith would it? This is the principle behind Yeshua's parable of the > mustard seed. If faith is strong enough it does not take much for it to > take root and grow. > > I don't know if that helps or hinders but it is all I have for now. > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "Denny Johnson" : > -------------- > > Dear fellow Dialoguers. > I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. > A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one > who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he > began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in > his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. > This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At > one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and > ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, > the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions > with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since > going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the > apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of > delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach > his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply > struggling at this point in h is journey. > > This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. > > What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. > He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith > with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. > > I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who > would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to > deal with this situation. > > Any thoughts or ideas? > > Thanks in advance. > Shalom, > Denny > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/e557b65d/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 16:21:05 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:21:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: References: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801021421k33b45892p9ef8ce9143b0ce4c@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Dick, for the helpful comments. That makes a lot of sense. This is all so helpful and I think will give us the broad perspective that will be helpful to us. It sounds like you are beyond just the Noahide laws at this time, if I am reading your comments correctly. Can you elaborate more on your journey and where you are today? Shalom, Denny On Jan 2, 2008 4:04 PM, Dick L wrote: > Denny ! The 7 Laws of Noah do come from the Torah. It is what Noah, > Abraham and all Jew's lived by until they become the chosen, or covenanted > people & received the 10 words or commandments. > Many Rabbi's teach that a gentile who tries to keep the Jewish Law is > stealing from them & should keep the Noahide Laws. Its is even in the N > T,Acts Chap 15, where they list , I think 5 of the 7 Laws. And again > elsewhere in Acts. > When I started my search we based most of our learning on the 7 > major covenants that God made with all flesh and with Israel in there time. > I'm not sure what your son has in mind when he says he could destroy > someone's faith with what he knows, but he is certainly wrong in even > thinking of that. He should explain what the Torah teaches, to both Gentile > & his chosen people. As it says in the N.T. Listen to the Rabbis, for > they sit in Moses seat. BUT don't do as they do-------. Not all are good > ones???? > Your son is in good hands as a Noahide, but his thinking is off > . Have him continue in this journey but study & learn more. Its out there. > In fact there is a conference coming up concerning Noahides???? > James????? has it. > Dick L > > > *Subject:* A Crisis of Faith > > Dear fellow Dialoguers. > I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. > A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one > who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he > began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in > his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. > This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At > one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and > ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, > the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions > with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since > going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the > apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of > delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach > his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply > struggling at this point in his journey. > > This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. > > What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. > He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith > with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. > > I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who > would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to > deal with this situation. > > Any thoughts or ideas? > > Thanks in advance. > Shalom, > Denny > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/c56cb82d/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 2 16:21:19 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:21:19 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801021406k59aad07dp19962652f17f5ee5@mail.gmail.com> References: <010220081740.20627.477BCCA700014C420000509322230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><1d04e0430801021406k59aad07dp19962652f17f5ee5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1454981784-1199312664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1950439661-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Denny, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I was speaking in generalities, I wasn't trying to say that your son is arrogant, I'm certain that he is a fine man (like his dad). I was trying to say that I have heard that statement before and I find the concept arrogant. I know, I used to think that way until God calibrated me years ago. Gotta watch this email stuff, it's tricky. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Denny Johnson" Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:06:08 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Paul, Clyde, John and others who I hope will be responding, Thank you Paul for your compassion and prayer. Clyde, thank you for your personalization of this by sharing your own story. That really sounds much like what my son is going through. He has already warned me not to go down this path many times. I will be careful. I only trust and pray that he, like you, will find his way. I know he believes that there is a God. It seems like he is trying to find his God given identity. We are patient and being on this new path realize that we have more questions than we do answers. Thank you for your very thoughtful comments. John, I have to agree with you about our son's comments seeming quite arrogant. I think youthful knowledge often leads to that. But if you knew him, he seems anything but arrogant. He and hsi wife are the most humble and tender of people I have ever met. If only more lived like them. My wife told me that she was listening to Dennis Prager the other day, (one of her favorites) and he said something about the dangers of having too much education. I am reminded of what Yeshua said about the faith of a little child. Part of me wants that simple trusting faith and yet I know that it is easy to fall into great error when we don't study as one approved (whatever that means). As far as what rabbis he was consulting, I don't remember any names other than one of them was in Israel who had a book that our son wanted. He wouldn't send it to him unless he would convert. That disappointed him. For others who might be reading this thread, I know that there are many out here who have converted to Judaism and I believe your stories might be closely related to our son's experiences. I am not looking for any one-sided viewpoint. I really want to hear from all sides so I can better understand the things that were challenges, discouragements and disapointments to you in your quest for truth that led you to where you are today. I have asked Hanoch to weigh in on this also from his unique perspectives as my Jewish brother. Please everyone, don't be afraid to weigh in on this thread. It is not for debate but more for perspective for us to understand and know all the sides of this situation and be able to effectively? be of encouragement to our son. Still wanting more information for the rest of you. Shalom, Denny On Jan 2, 2008 11:40 AM, > wrote: Hey Denny, ? I don't know that I can add much to help beyond what Clyde and Paul have already said but here are my thoughts.? ? This is what I meant awhile ago when I spoke about putting down stakes before venturing off into knowledge.? The most fundamental beliefs that we hold will never be provable by science and reason, I believe that very strongly (and I run nuclear reactors for a living).? This is the basis of faith.? The problem is that if we don't clearly define what it is that we hold true by faith and faith alone, before we venture off into knowledgeable pursuits, we will not be able to recognize when our faith is being challenged.? If we can't recognize it, then we can't meet the challenge and therfore?our faith?will most likely be undermined before we even know it.? That doesn't mean that our faith in what we hold true cannot be changed, but if it is, it is best we do it consciously because it is very hard to find our way back otherwise. ? Of course this doen't help us much going forward with your son.? I have only two things to offer here.? The first has to do with yours son's interactions with the orthodox teachers.? My question would be whether they beileve that Jewish Law began with Jacob or with Abraham or Noah or Adam?? God does not change. He chose the Jews to carry the light to the rest of mankind, not claim it as thier own (Hanoch, you once asked us what we would have our big brother Jacob do.? This is my response - stop hiding the light under his own basket). ? The second thing has to do with your son's statement about knowing enough to destroy anyone's faith.? I have heard that many times before and I mean no offense here but I think it is probably the most arrogant words I have ever herard anyone utter.? No-one and I mean no-one can change anothers faith unles that person allows them to, if they could it would not be much of a faith would it?? This is the principle behind Yeshua's parable of the mustard seed.? If faith is strong enough it does not take much for it to take root and grow. ? I don't know if that helps or hinders but it is all I have for now. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Denny Johnson" >: -------------- Dear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in h is journey. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom,? Denny _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From shdennis at rogers.com Wed Jan 2 16:28:27 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:28:27 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith References: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004101c84d8e$cc5ef890$69012b0a@beeblbrox> Denny, As a parent, I know the frustration, pain and regret associated with children who are seemingly in a 'no-man's land' re their eternal direction. I, for one, tend to blame myself for failing them, and am constantly wishing that I had done things differently etc. >From your previous correspondence with us, your family seem to be very warm, loving and together--------what a blessing for that! To me your son's journey comes down to one thing......faith. After everything that can be shaken, is, and we still have faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, we can know that our faith is as silver refined in the fire. If the shaking reveals that our faith is perhaps lacking, then at least we know where we are at and can move on from there. Perhaps in the past he was more attracted to the knowledge and research aspect of religion, rather than a living walk. I have personally known several people who have lost all 'faith' since beginning on the journey of questioning everything. Some of these were into conspiracy theories at one time, which I believe can throw one off of the truth. One was in love with 'Jewish culture' more than the faith aspect, and became a Noahide in a desperate attempt to be accepted by her Jewish friends. The final straw is losing faith in the content of the Hebrew Scriptures, because after that there seems to be a free-fall into some dark space that has no plumbline at all. Hopefully your son will not spend too long in the wilderness that he is in now. If he was truly drawn to HaShem in the past, he will never be able to absolutely deny that, and will recognise it again one day. In the meantime I am sure he is teaching his children the difference between right and wrong, while providing a loving home for them. He might just have to avoid teaching them about spiritual things until he is more convinced within himself. There probably is not much that you can tell him now----he has to walk for himself. The most one can do is pray and be honest in your own walk as he witnesses you and MaryJoyce struggling with many of the same issues, yet remaining true to HaShem. The most frustrating part is that some times these things can take time....and the waiting and watching can be so difficult. I know....we have four children too. Holding up our dear ones to our Father in heaven, Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Johnson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:10 AM Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Dear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in his journey. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom, Denny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/8318f169/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 16:28:41 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:28:41 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <1454981784-1199312664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1950439661-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <010220081740.20627.477BCCA700014C420000509322230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <1d04e0430801021406k59aad07dp19962652f17f5ee5@mail.gmail.com> <1454981784-1199312664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1950439661-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801021428l20bb1459mabd1f4e2261b242f@mail.gmail.com> John, I did not take it that way at all. No apologies necessary. Shoot straight with what information that I have given you all. I can filter it without taking insult. But you may be right. Only God knows his heart. I know that there is arrogance within us all to a degree. I seriously consider what you have said in framing my response to my son. I think there may be something to what you say and I probably should challenge him on it. On Jan 2, 2008 4:21 PM, wrote: > Denny, > > I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I was speaking in generalities, I wasn't > trying to say that your son is arrogant, I'm certain that he is a fine man > (like his dad). I was trying to say that I have heard that statement before > and I find the concept arrogant. I know, I used to think that way until God > calibrated me years ago. > > Gotta watch this email stuff, it's tricky. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Denny Johnson" > > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:06:08 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith > > > Paul, Clyde, John and others who I hope will be responding, > > Thank you Paul for your compassion and prayer. > > Clyde, thank you for your personalization of this by sharing your own > story. That really sounds much like what my son is going through. He has > already warned me not to go down this path many times. I will be careful. I > only trust and pray that he, like you, will find his way. I know he believes > that there is a God. It seems like he is trying to find his God given > identity. We are patient and being on this new path realize that we have > more questions than we do answers. Thank you for your very thoughtful > comments. > > John, > > I have to agree with you about our son's comments seeming quite arrogant. > I think youthful knowledge often leads to that. But if you knew him, he > seems anything but arrogant. He and hsi wife are the most humble and tender > of people I have ever met. If only more lived like them. > > My wife told me that she was listening to Dennis Prager the other day, > (one of her favorites) and he said something about the dangers of having too > much education. I am reminded of what Yeshua said about the faith of a > little child. Part of me wants that simple trusting faith and yet I know > that it is easy to fall into great error when we don't study as one approved > (whatever that means). > > As far as what rabbis he was consulting, I don't remember any names other > than one of them was in Israel who had a book that our son wanted. He > wouldn't send it to him unless he would convert. That disappointed him. > > For others who might be reading this thread, I know that there are many > out here who have converted to Judaism and I believe your stories might be > closely related to our son's experiences. I am not looking for any one-sided > viewpoint. I really want to hear from all sides so I can better understand > the things that were challenges, discouragements and disapointments to you > in your quest for truth that led you to where you are today. I have asked > Hanoch to weigh in on this also from his unique perspectives as my Jewish > brother. > > Please everyone, don't be afraid to weigh in on this thread. It is not for > debate but more for perspective for us to understand and know all the sides > of this situation and be able to effectively be of encouragement to our son. > > Still wanting more information for the rest of you. > > Shalom, > Denny > > > > On Jan 2, 2008 11:40 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net> > wrote: > > > > Hey Denny, > > I don't know that I can add much to help beyond what Clyde and Paul have > already said but here are my thoughts. > > This is what I meant awhile ago when I spoke about putting down stakes > before venturing off into knowledge. The most fundamental beliefs that we > hold will never be provable by science and reason, I believe that very > strongly (and I run nuclear reactors for a living). This is the basis of > faith. The problem is that if we don't clearly define what it is that we > hold true by faith and faith alone, before we venture off into knowledgeable > pursuits, we will not be able to recognize when our faith is being > challenged. If we can't recognize it, then we can't meet the challenge and > therforeour faithwill most likely be undermined before we even know it. That > doesn't mean that our faith in what we hold true cannot be changed, but if > it is, it is best we do it consciously because it is very hard to find our > way back otherwise. > > Of course this doen't help us much going forward with your son. I have > only two things to offer here. The first has to do with yours son's > interactions with the orthodox teachers. My question would be whether they > beileve that Jewish Law began with Jacob or with Abraham or Noah or Adam? > God does not change. He chose the Jews to carry the light to the rest of > mankind, not claim it as thier own (Hanoch, you once asked us what we would > have our big brother Jacob do. This is my response - stop hiding the light > under his own basket). > > The second thing has to do with your son's statement about knowing enough > to destroy anyone's faith. I have heard that many times before and I mean no > offense here but I think it is probably the most arrogant words I have ever > herard anyone utter. No-one and I mean no-one can change anothers faith > unles that person allows them to, if they could it would not be much of a > faith would it? This is the principle behind Yeshua's parable of the mustard > seed. If faith is strong enough it does not take much for it to take root > and grow. > > I don't know if that helps or hinders but it is all I have for now. > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "Denny Johnson" >: -------------- > > > Dear fellow Dialoguers. > > > I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. > A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one > who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he > began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in > his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. > This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At > one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and > ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, > the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions > with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since > going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the > apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of > delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach > his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply > struggling at this point in h is journey. > > > > This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. > > > What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. > He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith > with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. > > > I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who > would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to > deal with this situation. > > > Any thoughts or ideas? > > > Thanks in advance. > Shalom, > Denny > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/6eb7624c/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Wed Jan 2 16:32:01 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:32:01 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith References: <1d04e0430801020822k69b75307j6c2bd8a0b93c439b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007101c84d8f$4ba07c50$69012b0a@beeblbrox> PS.......on the end of my last post.............I also love listening to Dennis Prager....such wisdom! I usually listen via the internet while cooking, ironing etc. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Johnson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:22 PM Subject: [Bulk] [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Dear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in his journey. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom, Denny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/6a3f767c/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 16:39:09 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:39:09 -0600 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <004101c84d8e$cc5ef890$69012b0a@beeblbrox> References: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> <004101c84d8e$cc5ef890$69012b0a@beeblbrox> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801021439y2e3eb532h48f8a104f52a28f5@mail.gmail.com> Sharon, Thank you for your tender and thoughtful help. You do know what it is like, don't you. I can really sense that. Some very helpful thoughts here. I shared with him on the eve of the new year, that I think he is where he needs to be for the moment. We have raised our kids to think for themselves and not take what even we say at face value. I told him that this may be where he needs to be to build his own personally deep convictions and faith walk. We bless him in whatever he does as with our other children. The hard thing now is that it is much to his credit that we are where we are today. The discussion evolving from this thread really seems to have struck a tender and unifying chord in this dialogue and I think may well be just the thing that Ross envisioned this to be. I know that I can sense the Spirit of Hashem flowing in a tangible way in this discussion. The scriptures teach us that there is wisdom in the counsel of many. I think that it is especially true when we don't all think alike, don't you? We have a definite advantage here in this diverse group if we see it as a place, where G-d is and where he can as Steve shared this morning, the "prosperity of God can flow" in the river of our lives. (My take on it.) Thanks, Sharon. Blessings, Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/34bcfb32/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 2 17:20:39 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:20:39 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <010220081740.20627.477BCCA700014C420000509322230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <008301c84d96$16582e10$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Denny, What encouraging and beautiful responses you have gotten to your email. I pray that you are encouraged by all the words and prayers reaching out to you. We are all bound up in each others lives and it is so good to see what happens when we let Hashem reach out thru one another. In spite of our differences, our diversity in thinking, Hashem is drawing us all together in a common goal. I too believe, as Paul and Sandra and others have said that the most important thing we can do for our children, especially once they are grown, is to continually let them know that we love them and are always open to discuss even the most difficult questions of faith. It goes without saying that prayer is always present when it comes to our children. My girls used to chuckle and make light of my little saying would always follow them out the door and wherever they went."Remember that I love you, and that G-d does too!" Now that they are grown, they have since told me how much that little saying meant to them.not that it always protected them and kept them out of trouble, but at least they knew that they were loved. And in my opinion, that is one of the most important things missing in our world today. As parents, our children are our "hearts;" and try as we might we cannot always protect them, just as Hashem cannot always protect us (or maybe I should rephrase that.Hashem gives us free will and if we choose to leave the protective wings and venture out on our own He allows that, but like the Faithful Father in the Prodigal Son story, He is always ready with arms open wide to receive us). One of my daughters has a saying posted in her home that I think is so applicable here. It says, "Give your children roots to grow and wings to fly." One thing that John and Dick mentioned I would have to agree with strongly is that, NO ONE HAS THE POWER TO DESTROY ANOTHER PERSON'S FAITH. I am not sure why your son would have said that. Perhaps it is because in his search for truth, he has left some of the principles that he grew up with and feels that he no longer has the same foundation that he once has. But that will be between him and Hashem to work out. Perhaps he is not as far "gone" as you or he may think. Just the fact that he is still willing to talk with you is so important. Only Hashem knows his heart. On a personal note, I remember many sleepless nights of soul-searching with tears and pleadings for Hashem to please show me the way as I was so confused and it seemed like I was suspended in air and hanging by the thread of what used to be a substantial carpet on which my feet were firmly planted. (knowing my church of Christ background, you can probably identify with that.you know.when we thought we knew all the answers). Anyway, I remember coming to my wits end one evening. I was in utter turmoil; and I called my brother out of sheer desperation, wanting him to just "tell me" the answers. He listened to all I had to say, then paused, and instead of giving me the answers I sought, he advised me to go into my closet, kneel down and pray to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I did, and continue to do so. That was many years ago.I still have questions, but I know that my foundation is Hashem and Torah and when I feel like I am hanging by a thread again, all I have to look up, and I see that it is Hashem who is holding the other end.and I know that I will be fine. Just reading your postings, Denny makes me know that you love your son, and I think, "just helping him through" is good advice. It is obvious that you have been blessed by a very warm and loving family and I am sure that you have passed down this love to your son. As long as he knows that you love him and can keep open dialogue you have an avenue to his heart. We have been thru similar things in my own family with my girls. My dear Kim, who is on the list went thru a period of drifting away, and is now back, bull force and stronger than ever. Hashem knows who his children are, he holds them in the palm of His hand, and it is a "Good Hand," the Yad Tovah, in Hebrew.a term that I have grown to love. At the risk of being too lengthy, I would like to share a short "waking vision" that I believe Hashem gave me years ago when I was struggling and hurting for my own children. In the vision, I was holding one of my daughters in my lap, as I had when she was a baby, only she was grown.she was asleep, but I was crying.then I reached both hands up as high as I could and just held her up there.then I gave her to Hashem.and he took over and held her for me. Hope this helps, Denny. Words are so inadequate, but we can cover them with prayers.and that is what I will do on behalf of your son. Love and Blessings to you and your family, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:41 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Hey Denny, I don't know that I can add much to help beyond what Clyde and Paul have already said but here are my thoughts. This is what I meant awhile ago when I spoke about putting down stakes before venturing off into knowledge. The most fundamental beliefs that we hold will never be provable by science and reason, I believe that very strongly (and I run nuclear reactors for a living). This is the basis of faith. The problem is that if we don't clearly define what it is that we hold true by faith and faith alone, before we venture off into knowledgeable pursuits, we will not be able to recognize when our faith is being challenged. If we can't recognize it, then we can't meet the challenge and therfore our faith will most likely be undermined before we even know it. That doesn't mean that our faith in what we hold true cannot be changed, but if it is, it is best we do it consciously because it is very hard to find our way back otherwise. Of course this doen't help us much going forward with your son. I have only two things to offer here. The first has to do with yours son's interactions with the orthodox teachers. My question would be whether they beileve that Jewish Law began with Jacob or with Abraham or Noah or Adam? God does not change. He chose the Jews to carry the light to the rest of mankind, not claim it as thier own (Hanoch, you once asked us what we would have our big brother Jacob do. This is my response - stop hiding the light under his own basket). The second thing has to do with your son's statement about knowing enough to destroy anyone's faith. I have heard that many times before and I mean no offense here but I think it is probably the most arrogant words I have ever herard anyone utter. No-one and I mean no-one can change anothers faith unles that person allows them to, if they could it would not be much of a faith would it? This is the principle behind Yeshua's parable of the mustard seed. If faith is strong enough it does not take much for it to take root and grow. I don't know if that helps or hinders but it is all I have for now. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Denny Johnson" : -------------- Dear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in h is journey. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom, Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/bc6a4df0/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 2 17:21:27 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:21:27 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] KIM NEEDS YOUR PRAYERS Message-ID: <008801c84d96$32e37620$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Friends, Many of you have met my daughter, Kim. Some have not, but have seen her name on our list as she tries to be a regular contributor to our dialogue inasmuch as she can be considering her present situation. Kim, like many of us, is always happy to request prayer for others and has, but reluctant to request it for herself. Last week, she did request prayer as to how to deal with a family situation; and since she is "my heart," I would like to ask that you continue to pray for her along these lines as she daily finds herself in a situation where she meets very strong opposition at every turn when she endeavors to honor Shabbat and to lead a Torah lifestyle. As she explained before, she lost her 3 year old son in 1993. Empty and broken, she pulled away from Hashem and Torah. When she met and married her second husband about five years ago, she still loved G-d and continued to pray, but was not particularly "religious," as some would say. In the past year of so, she has been very strongly pulled back to Hashem and Torah. In addition to the family situation at home, Kim needs direction in her job situation. Kim is very qualified, and for years has wanted to go back to school and could be successful in any number of jobs. However she always put her children first, and as a result has turned down many job opportunities over the years and has chosen instead to wait tables in the evenings and on Sundays so that she can have a schedule that will allow her to be with her children. She does not regret her decision to be home with the children in any way. It is just that now, another opportunity may be coming her way. She now has a very precocious little son who will be 4 this week. He has no friends to play with and simply loves and needs to be with other children, so Kim thought she could possibly put him in a day care type school and use this opportunity to be engaged in a career in which she would be challenged and be able to offer her talents and come closer to reaching her potential. She has recently begun an interview process for a position in a family law office practice. This job sounds like just the one for her as they would provide the training for her to become a para legal. She is hoping to obtain scholarships for school, which I feel certain that she should be able to do. She is very excited about the possibility of this job, but If hired, she would need to start off a little more than the base pay in order to offset the costs of child care. So please pray for Kim to have strength to deal with all that she has to deal with at home and for her to be guided in her upcoming decisions and that Hashem will go before her that she will find favor with the office manager of this particular law firm if this is the position for her. And if not, that He will provide just the right position for her. >From a mother's heart, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/c9bf7705/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 2 17:40:06 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 18:40:06 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] KIM NEEDS YOUR PRAYERS In-Reply-To: <008801c84d96$32e37620$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <008801c84d96$32e37620$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <8CA1BAFF03617CA-250-17AE@webmail-mf13.sysops.aol.com> I will be praying for Kim.....May HaShem grant her the wisdom to make the decisions she needs to, and the courage and endurance to make them happen.? But please tell her my prayers and 'good vibes' are with her!! ????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 6:21 pm Subject: [Dialogue] KIM NEEDS YOUR PRAYERS ? Dear Friends, ? Many of you have met my daughter, Kim.? Some have not, but have seen her name on our list as she tries to be a regular contributor to our dialogue inasmuch as she can be considering her present situation.? Kim, like many of us, is always happy to request prayer for others and has, but reluctant to request it for herself. ? Last week, she did request prayer as to how to deal with a family situation; and since she is ?my heart,? I would like to ask that you continue to pray for her along these lines as she daily finds herself in a situation where she meets very strong opposition at every turn when she endeavors to honor Shabbat and to lead a Torah lifestyle. ? ? As she explained before, she lost her 3 year old son in 1993.? Empty and broken, she pulled away from Hashem and Torah.? When she met and married her second husband about five years ago, she still loved G-d and continued to pray, but was not particularly ?religious,? as some would say.? In the past year of so, she has been very strongly pulled back to Hashem and Torah.? ? In addition to the family situation at home, Kim needs direction in her job situation. Kim is very qualified, and for years has wanted to go back to school and could be successful in any number of jobs.? However she always put her children first, and as a result has turned down many job opportunities over the years ?and has chosen instead to wait tables in the evenings and on Sundays so that she can have a schedule that will allow her to be with her children. ?She does not regret her decision to be home with the children in any way.? ? It is just that now, another opportunity may be coming her way. She now has a very precocious little son who will be 4 this week.? He has no friends to play with and simply loves and needs to be with other children, so Kim thought she could possibly put him in a day care type school and use this opportunity to be engaged in a career in which she would be challenged and be able to offer her talents and come closer to reaching her potential.? ? She has recently begun an interview process for a position in a family law office practice.? This job sounds like just the one for her as they would provide the training for her to become a para legal.? She is hoping to obtain scholarships for school, which I feel certain that she should be able to do.? She is very excited about the possibility of this job, but If hired, she would need to start off a little more than the base pay in order to offset the costs of child care. ? So please pray for Kim to have strength to deal with all that she has to deal with at home and for her to be guided in her upcoming decisions and that Hashem will go before her that she will find favor with the office manager of this particular law firm if this is the position for her.? And if not, that He will provide just the right position for her. ? >From a mother?s heart, ? Betty/Elisheva ? _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/7bda314c/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Jan 2 17:48:33 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:48:33 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801021439y2e3eb532h48f8a104f52a28f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> <004101c84d8e$cc5ef890$69012b0a@beeblbrox> <1d04e0430801021439y2e3eb532h48f8a104f52a28f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Denny, I wanted to make a couple of points here about your son, and maybe others who might be in similar situations. I hope he does not mind us "discussing" him! :-) I think your attitude of affirming and blessing him in what he honestly feels about his convictions is more than half the battle here. So many would have the opposite approach and begin to pressure, condemn, or lament in ways that try to cause guilt but only create resentment and alienation. From what you have described your son is truly and honestly following things as a truth seeker--and that you can recognize that sincerity, even if you are in a different place, has to be enormously encouraging and bonding to him and his wife. It is also important to remember I think that Enoch, Noah, and Abraham, who all "walked with YHVH," did not have a "Bible," either to doubt or believe, so no "text criticism" without a text--right, but they loved the Creator and sought to listen to the directions of the Spirit. It sounds like your son is open to that. This is surely THE bedrock, and what all the Scriptures point to anyway--Trust in YHVH, the Rock of Ages, Love YHVH will all your heart, etc. love your neighbor as yourself. No "Bible" needed for that...though I do indeed believe that the biblical revelation points us to that God and offers some of the clearest insight we can find to God's nature, plans, and historical purposes. That said, I have come to the conclusion that there is a wide difference between a strict inerrant "literalist" view of the Bible (and here I am confining myself to the Hebrew Bible) and throwing the whole thing out as just another product of human aspirations and imaginations in the long history of religions. In the decade or more (1970s) I spent at the University of Chicago getting my Ph.D. I begin to slip away from any kind of biblical faith, being exposed to the most critical approaches possible at an institution known for being the most rigorous in the world. I was "agnostic" to say the most, and just put it all on hold, thinking there was no certainty available. However, years later, in 1986 to be precise, I made my own kind of "return" to YHVH on a very personal level. It was very much a "crying out" to the Creator. I have never looked back, but I have also have maintained my intellectual integrity. I did not come back with the same fundamentalist view I had been raised with, and I had been exposed to all aspects of biblical critical thinking, but on the whole, when all was said and done, I found the overall content and message of the Hebrew Bible enormously appealing and unique. I saw good solid historical evidence that it stood out as different from other Scriptures of other religions, and this would be the case whether one reads the MT (Masoretic), Qumran, or LXX (Greek Septuagint text). This is not to deny its "human" character, or the real historical nature of its transmission. After all, it did not drop down from heaven. I actually find the textual differences more interesting than threatening. I do believe we have within the canon of the Hebrew Bible books that have been edited and developed over time. But the impact overall of this Book of books I truly find to be unique. One book I would recommend for your son or others who want a challenging but scholarly approach is Yehezkel Kaufmann, The Religion of Israel. It is not a fundamentalist apologetic but a look at the religion of Israel in historical context with a full discussion of modern Biblical criticism. There are many other books but to me this one is most fundamental. On a more general level, I would recommend Rabbi Abba Hillel Silver, Where Judaism Differed. It is more philosophical, but reinforces many of the same points. Just a few thoughts to share here... Best, James On Jan 2, 2008, at 5:39 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > Sharon, > > Thank you for your tender and thoughtful help. You do know what it > is like, don't you. I can really sense that. Some very helpful > thoughts here. I shared with him on the eve of the new year, that I > think he is where he needs to be for the moment. We have raised our > kids to think for themselves and not take what even we say at face > value. I told him that this may be where he needs to be to build his > own personally deep convictions and faith walk. We bless him in > whatever he does as with our other children. The hard thing now is > that it is much to his credit that we are where we are today. > > The discussion evolving from this thread really seems to have struck > a tender and unifying chord in this dialogue and I think may well be > just the thing that Ross envisioned this to be. I know that I can > sense the Spirit of Hashem flowing in a tangible way in this > discussion. The scriptures teach us that there is wisdom in the > counsel of many. I think that it is especially true when we don't > all think alike, don't you? We have a definite advantage here in > this diverse group if we see it as a place, where G-d is and where > he can as Steve shared this morning, the "prosperity of God can > flow" in the river of our lives. (My take on it.) > > Thanks, Sharon. > > Blessings, > Denny > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/5d2d8599/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 17:51:05 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:51:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <008301c84d96$16582e10$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <010220081740.20627.477BCCA700014C420000509322230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <008301c84d96$16582e10$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801021551g23814744p802bcdf009a2fc34@mail.gmail.com> Thank you Betty, Your thoughts are always so genuine and compassionate. We are so blessed to have open channels of communication with our children. They love and bless us regularly. In that respect, we are not worried. Even with the spouses of our children we have a fabulous relationship. Very open and they do come to us for advice and help. A common thread of thought that seems to being ringing clearly in the responses thus far is this idea that know one can destroy another's faith. I think there might be something there that may need to be discussed with our son. I didn't pick up on it earlier like you all seem to be picking up on it. Thank you for your candidness. The more I hear all your thoughts, the more I think that there may be some intellectual arrogance there that may need to be dealt with. We have always been quick to praise our children. Our son is very successful in his career in the computer sciences for his young age. He is only 27, is happily married with 3 children and is the sole provider for his family making more than any kid his age should be allowed to make. Plus he gets to work from home. In all of this he has been faithful to follow the torah the best he can which has included generosity and hospitality. But unlike us, he talks of having learned too much about what is behind the scenes in terms of how we got the scriptures that has apparently caused incredible doubt in his mind and that is what he refers to when he says that if he were to share it with others, it would or could destroy their faith. He has no intention of doing that however. But to even be thinking that might be revealing something there that he needs to deal with. Obviously there are others who know far more than he does about these things who have vibrant, meaningful faith. By the way, I just read your other post about Kim. I too, lift her up to the Father to care for and guide her. It sounds like she also has deep loving roots to turn to for love and support. Keep us posted as to how things work out for her. Blessings, Denny > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/de8f8c86/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Wed Jan 2 17:56:28 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:56:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] KIM NEEDS YOUR PRAYERS In-Reply-To: <008801c84d96$32e37620$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <903081.44057.qm@web57115.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dearest Betty, I will certainly keep Kim in my prayers. I will ask HaShem to be with her and guide all of her decisions and help her to recognize His guidance. I truly believe that G-d knows our fears, understands our tears and knows the desires of our hearts. Just know that you will not be alone in praying for your daughter. Shalom my friend, Tammy Betty Givin wrote: Dear Friends, Many of you have met my daughter, Kim. Some have not, but have seen her name on our list as she tries to be a regular contributor to our dialogue inasmuch as she can be considering her present situation. Kim, like many of us, is always happy to request prayer for others and has, but reluctant to request it for herself. Last week, she did request prayer as to how to deal with a family situation; and since she is ?my heart,? I would like to ask that you continue to pray for her along these lines as she daily finds herself in a situation where she meets very strong opposition at every turn when she endeavors to honor Shabbat and to lead a Torah lifestyle. As she explained before, she lost her 3 year old son in 1993. Empty and broken, she pulled away from Hashem and Torah. When she met and married her second husband about five years ago, she still loved G-d and continued to pray, but was not particularly ?religious,? as some would say. In the past year of so, she has been very strongly pulled back to Hashem and Torah. In addition to the family situation at home, Kim needs direction in her job situation. Kim is very qualified, and for years has wanted to go back to school and could be successful in any number of jobs. However she always put her children first, and as a result has turned down many job opportunities over the years and has chosen instead to wait tables in the evenings and on Sundays so that she can have a schedule that will allow her to be with her children. She does not regret her decision to be home with the children in any way. It is just that now, another opportunity may be coming her way. She now has a very precocious little son who will be 4 this week. He has no friends to play with and simply loves and needs to be with other children, so Kim thought she could possibly put him in a day care type school and use this opportunity to be engaged in a career in which she would be challenged and be able to offer her talents and come closer to reaching her potential. She has recently begun an interview process for a position in a family law office practice. This job sounds like just the one for her as they would provide the training for her to become a para legal. She is hoping to obtain scholarships for school, which I feel certain that she should be able to do. She is very excited about the possibility of this job, but If hired, she would need to start off a little more than the base pay in order to offset the costs of child care. So please pray for Kim to have strength to deal with all that she has to deal with at home and for her to be guided in her upcoming decisions and that Hashem will go before her that she will find favor with the office manager of this particular law firm if this is the position for her. And if not, that He will provide just the right position for her. From a mother?s heart, Betty/Elisheva _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/0691d7e3/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 2 17:58:31 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 18:58:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] re: Crisis of Faith Message-ID: <8CA1BB282C31B68-250-186F@webmail-mf13.sysops.aol.com> Dear Denny, ??? My heart is with you....and I wish I knew the magic formula that could relieve the anguish you're all feeling.? The one thing I am absolutely certain about is that you cannot 'push' someone who's in a situation like your son is.? Faith is exactly that - ?'faith' - it's not something that can be proved (or disproved) empirically. ?? I wouldn't push texts upon him, but continue to be the loving and supportive family that you've always have been.? Give him some space...let him doubt, and let him begin to come back at his own pace, if that's the way that he'll turn.? He may just think it's a bunch of nonsense - but don't give up on him..... ??Please try to find out the name of the Rabbi in Israel that had a book that your son wanted, but he wouldn't send it to him.? There's an outside chance that I'll be in Israel during the next few months, and I would like to confront this guy directly! ? Within Jewish families, this unfortunately happens, even more often then people begin observing Torah (as I mentioned in my Saga).? The only thing that I have heard that helps, is just give them time..... ? Denny, my dear friend - I wish I had more to tell you, but I don't, but I pray HaShem will inspire us with an answer. ??Hang tough, we all love you and support you, ?????????? Hanoch ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/4a0168a5/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 18:29:08 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:29:08 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] re: Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <8CA1BB282C31B68-250-186F@webmail-mf13.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA1BB282C31B68-250-186F@webmail-mf13.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801021629h6605995alc5e8a0f9aa9b92ab@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for the support and encouragement, Hanoch. I just called him to see if I could get his name, but he refused to tell me because he didn't to violate his confidence. You see what kind of a man our son is. James, I told him about the books you recommended. He thinks he may have heard of them but at this point seems tired of the search and is not interested in reading any more... at least at this time. One thing he did say that was the most frustrating to him was having many question but no one able to answer them. I know that I am not qualified. You are correct, Hanoch. Faith is just that, Faith. And as recorded in the letter to the Hebrews, "Without faith, it is impossible to please God. For he that comes to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them who diligently seek him." We won't give up...praying or loving him, that is for sure. He is a good man regardless. Thanks pal, for you thoughts and prayers and as you say "good vibes" ;-) Denny On Jan 2, 2008 5:58 PM, wrote: > Dear Denny, > > My heart is with you....and I wish I knew the magic formula that could > relieve the anguish you're all feeling. The one thing I am absolutely > certain about is that you cannot 'push' someone who's in a situation like > your son is. Faith is exactly that - 'faith' - it's not something that can > be proved (or disproved) empirically. > > I wouldn't push texts upon him, but continue to be the loving and > supportive family that you've always have been. Give him some space...let > him doubt, and let him begin to come back at his own pace, if that's the way > that he'll turn. He may just think it's a bunch of nonsense - but don't > give up on him..... > > Please try to find out the name of the Rabbi in Israel that had a book > that your son wanted, but he wouldn't send it to him. There's an outside > chance that I'll be in Israel during the next few months, and I would like > to confront this guy directly! > > Within Jewish families, this unfortunately happens, even more often then > people begin observing Torah (as I mentioned in my Saga). The only thing > that I have heard that helps, is just give them time..... > > Denny, my dear friend - I wish I had more to tell you, but I don't, but > I pray HaShem will inspire us with an answer. > > Hang tough, we all love you and support you, > > Hanoch > ------------------------------ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail > ! > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/6df2eb79/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 19:14:32 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:14:32 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: References: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> <004101c84d8e$cc5ef890$69012b0a@beeblbrox> <1d04e0430801021439y2e3eb532h48f8a104f52a28f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801021714w1eb63815gf59f29aadfccdc95@mail.gmail.com> James, Your comments here are very insightful and really fits our son's experience I think. I actually shared some of what you said below. I wish I could get him to dialogue with some of you. Clyde is another one who I think really resonates with what this is about I think. I feel so inadequate to be of any intellectual help for him. If any are willing to make themselves available to be a sounding board for him, I might suggest that to him. Denny It is also important to remember I think that Enoch, Noah, and Abraham, who > all "walked with YHVH," did not have a "Bible," either to doubt or believe, > so no "text criticism" without a text--right, but they loved the Creator and > sought to listen to the directions of the Spirit. It sounds like your son is > open to that. This is surely THE bedrock, and what all the Scriptures point > to anyway--Trust in YHVH, the Rock of Ages, Love YHVH will all your heart, > etc. love your neighbor as yourself. No "Bible" needed for that...though I > do indeed believe that the biblical revelation points us to that God and > offers some of the clearest insight we can find to God's nature, plans, and > historical purposes. > > That said, I have come to the conclusion that there is a wide difference > between a strict inerrant "literalist" view of the Bible (and here I am > confining myself to the Hebrew Bible) and throwing the whole thing out as > just another product of human aspirations and imaginations in the long > history of religions. In the decade or more (1970s) I spent at the > University of Chicago getting my Ph.D. I begin to slip away from any kind > of biblical faith, being exposed to the most critical approaches possible at > an institution known for being the most rigorous in the world. I was > "agnostic" to say the most, and just put it all on hold, thinking there was > no certainty available. > > However, years later, in 1986 to be precise, I made my own kind of > "return" to YHVH on a very personal level. It was very much a "crying out" > to the Creator. I have never looked back, but I have also have maintained my > intellectual integrity. I did not come back with the same fundamentalist > view I had been raised with, and I had been exposed to all aspects of > biblical critical thinking, but on the whole, when all was said and done, I > found the overall content and message of the Hebrew Bible enormously > appealing and unique. I saw good solid historical evidence that it stood out > as different from other Scriptures of other religions, and this would be the > case whether one reads the MT (Masoretic), Qumran, or LXX (Greek Septuagint > text). This is not to deny its "human" character, or the real historical > nature of its transmission. After all, it did not drop down from heaven. I > actually find the textual differences more interesting than threatening. I > do believe we have within the canon of the Hebrew Bible books that have been > edited and developed over time. But the impact overall of this Book of books > I truly find to be unique. One book I would recommend for your son or others > who want a challenging but scholarly approach is Yehezkel Kaufmann, *The > Religion of Israel*. It is not a fundamentalist apologetic but a look at > the religion of Israel in historical context with a full discussion of > modern Biblical criticism. There are many other books but to me this one is > most fundamental. On a more general level, I would recommend Rabbi Abba > Hillel Silver, *Where Judaism Differed*. It is more philosophical, but > reinforces many of the same points. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/addf5502/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Wed Jan 2 19:55:27 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 20:55:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00cd01c84dab$b98581e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Denney, I think I have been where your son is. I believe the comment about destroying someone's faith is not an arrogant threat, nor ego talking. It's fear... he has learned so much and it takes time for it to settle out in our brains and for him to reformulate this thoughts and beliefs. It' kind of like a 16 yr. old with a GTO, with a 454 and a 4 speed. "It'll out run the cops!" I read somewhere once that our brains have to push old knowledge out so new knowledge could get in... it is a process, sometimes it takes longer with some of us then with others. Because of my personal faith and my previous life style in the church I really struggled with something's.. Other things left easier. I have noticed that with religion and faith human intelligence and I.Q levels play a very small part. Some of the smartest people give up their reasoning ability to keep their faith / believe system. If your son has just pulled back some and continues to love and serve God as best he can, I believe he will be alright. Sounds like he just needs time to digest and contemplate his new found knowledge. Your job Dad.. Is to listen and love him. During my darkest days I have held on to my faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If I might quote one of our teachers: Dr. James Tabor, You know, many speak in the churches of having a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ." I read the Torah, Psalms, and Prophets and what comes through is the personal relationship with YHVH that really rings clear in text after text and it was THIS personal relationship that sustained Jesus of Nazareth as a Jew who grew up in the faith: I am YHVH, and there is NONE beside me... Turn to ME and be saved, all the ends of the earth... You shall love YHVH your God and Him ONLY shall you serve You will seek me and find me if you search for me with all your heart Trust in YHVH always, for in YAH, Yehovah, is the Rock of the Ages I, even I, am YHVH; and besides me there is no Savior. Once one gets it this idea becomes the MOST inspiring thing imaginable. How could it be that we who are but "dust and ashes," could turn our hearts, DIRECTLY, with no mediators, to the Creator God, Yehovah, the God of Israel? What an amazing thing, and yet each of us is invited, one by one, to "come to me," and make YHVH our personal "Savior," to be forgiven, reconciled, and "born again" of the Holy Spirit. And there is the promise then of intimacy, help, guidance, and strength. Surely THIS and this alone is the BEDROCK of Biblical Faith...to know YHVH and "walk" with Him... Sholam and Amen! marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 8:11 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Dear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some Jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in his journey. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom, Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/5105f63a/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Wed Jan 2 19:58:24 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 20:58:24 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801021714w1eb63815gf59f29aadfccdc95@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com><004101c84d8e$cc5ef890$69012b0a@beeblbrox><1d04e0430801021439y2e3eb532h48f8a104f52a28f5@mail.gmail.com> <1d04e0430801021714w1eb63815gf59f29aadfccdc95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00de01c84dac$212fe600$0200a8c0@marvin> Denney, Print the post out. Let him read them himself. Better yet forward them to him _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 8:15 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith James, Your comments here are very insightful and really fits our son's experience I think. I actually shared some of what you said below. I wish I could get him to dialogue with some of you. Clyde is another one who I think really resonates with what this is about I think. I feel so inadequate to be of any intellectual help for him. If any are willing to make themselves available to be a sounding board for him, I might suggest that to him. Denny It is also important to remember I think that Enoch, Noah, and Abraham, who all "walked with YHVH," did not have a "Bible," either to doubt or believe, so no "text criticism" without a text--right, but they loved the Creator and sought to listen to the directions of the Spirit. It sounds like your son is open to that. This is surely THE bedrock, and what all the Scriptures point to anyway--Trust in YHVH, the Rock of Ages, Love YHVH will all your heart, etc. love your neighbor as yourself. No "Bible" needed for that...though I do indeed believe that the biblical revelation points us to that God and offers some of the clearest insight we can find to God's nature, plans, and historical purposes. That said, I have come to the conclusion that there is a wide difference between a strict inerrant "literalist" view of the Bible (and here I am confining myself to the Hebrew Bible) and throwing the whole thing out as just another product of human aspirations and imaginations in the long history of religions. In the decade or more (1970s) I spent at the University of Chicago getting my Ph.D. I begin to slip away from any kind of biblical faith, being exposed to the most critical approaches possible at an institution known for being the most rigorous in the world. I was "agnostic" to say the most, and just put it all on hold, thinking there was no certainty available. However, years later, in 1986 to be precise, I made my own kind of "return" to YHVH on a very personal level. It was very much a "crying out" to the Creator. I have never looked back, but I have also have maintained my intellectual integrity. I did not come back with the same fundamentalist view I had been raised with, and I had been exposed to all aspects of biblical critical thinking, but on the whole, when all was said and done, I found the overall content and message of the Hebrew Bible enormously appealing and unique. I saw good solid historical evidence that it stood out as different from other Scriptures of other religions, and this would be the case whether one reads the MT (Masoretic), Qumran, or LXX (Greek Septuagint text). This is not to deny its "human" character, or the real historical nature of its transmission. After all, it did not drop down from heaven. I actually find the textual differences more interesting than threatening. I do believe we have within the canon of the Hebrew Bible books that have been edited and developed over time. But the impact overall of this Book of books I truly find to be unique. One book I would recommend for your son or others who want a challenging but scholarly approach is Yehezkel Kaufmann, The Religion of Israel. It is not a fundamentalist apologetic but a look at the religion of Israel in historical context with a full discussion of modern Biblical criticism. There are many other books but to me this one is most fundamental. On a more general level, I would recommend Rabbi Abba Hillel Silver, Where Judaism Differed. It is more philosophical, but reinforces many of the same points. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/64486979/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 2 20:22:12 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 20:22:12 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Marvin In-Reply-To: <00cd01c84dab$b98581e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <00e601c84daf$736280b0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Marvin, I could not agree more with what you said here. "During my darkest days I have held on to my faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob". Amen! And sometimes it takes us getting away from everyone and everything and simply kneeling in our closets and praying to that G-d! It is as you said, and quoted from James all about Hashem, the ONE G-D of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and putting our trust in Him and Him only! That was the very thing that I was trying to explain in my post when I made the analogy of hanging onto a thread of what had once been (what I thought) a substantial carpet beneath me).when I looked up, it was Hashem who was holding the other end of the thread. He is both our Creator and our Savior, the one in whom we can always safely put our trust! Just us and G-d!!! How very awesome.it gives me chills. I do so appreciate your posts, Marvin; and your quotes in this one were "right on!" I hesitate to quote James, because he is my brother. But he does have much wisdom and knowledge and certainly has a love of G-d that I can attest to.I have seen it "up close and personal".from the days of our childhood. Not to embarrass him, but when everyone else, including me, was out dating, he was in his little bedroom reading his Bible, listening to Herbert W. Armstrong, and teaching himself Greek. I could say much more, but will stop at that.for now. Thank you Denny again, for trusting us enough to open up and thank-you, Marvin and all for your timely posts. When we encourage one another, I often think that we find ourselves encouraged1 Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:55 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Denney, I think I have been where your son is. I believe the comment about destroying someone's faith is not an arrogant threat, nor ego talking. It's fear... he has learned so much and it takes time for it to settle out in our brains and for him to reformulate this thoughts and beliefs. It' kind of like a 16 yr. old with a GTO, with a 454 and a 4 speed. "It'll out run the cops!" I read somewhere once that our brains have to push old knowledge out so new knowledge could get in... it is a process, sometimes it takes longer with some of us then with others. Because of my personal faith and my previous life style in the church I really struggled with something's.. Other things left easier. I have noticed that with religion and faith human intelligence and I.Q levels play a very small part. Some of the smartest people give up their reasoning ability to keep their faith / believe system. If your son has just pulled back some and continues to love and serve God as best he can, I believe he will be alright. Sounds like he just needs time to digest and contemplate his new found knowledge. Your job Dad.. Is to listen and love him. During my darkest days I have held on to my faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If I might quote one of our teachers: Dr. James Tabor, You know, many speak in the churches of having a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ." I read the Torah, Psalms, and Prophets and what comes through is the personal relationship with YHVH that really rings clear in text after text and it was THIS personal relationship that sustained Jesus of Nazareth as a Jew who grew up in the faith: I am YHVH, and there is NONE beside me... Turn to ME and be saved, all the ends of the earth... You shall love YHVH your God and Him ONLY shall you serve You will seek me and find me if you search for me with all your heart Trust in YHVH always, for in YAH, Yehovah, is the Rock of the Ages I, even I, am YHVH; and besides me there is no Savior. Once one gets it this idea becomes the MOST inspiring thing imaginable. How could it be that we who are but "dust and ashes," could turn our hearts, DIRECTLY, with no mediators, to the Creator God, Yehovah, the God of Israel? What an amazing thing, and yet each of us is invited, one by one, to "come to me," and make YHVH our personal "Savior," to be forgiven, reconciled, and "born again" of the Holy Spirit. And there is the promise then of intimacy, help, guidance, and strength. Surely THIS and this alone is the BEDROCK of Biblical Faith...to know YHVH and "walk" with Him... Sholam and Amen! marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 8:11 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Dear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some Jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in his journey. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom, Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/47f349da/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 20:36:42 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 20:36:42 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith In-Reply-To: <00cd01c84dab$b98581e0$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <1d04e0430801020510h159fc312ua0b2ed106450f863@mail.gmail.com> <00cd01c84dab$b98581e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801021836h5ad4f9afp8d898d9e0679ab83@mail.gmail.com> Marvin, You have a good point here regarding being overwhelmed with knowledge. I do think our son is a bit burned out. He has commented about many he knows who have gone down this road and have totally given up on the faith and I think that is a fearful thought,...that it could happen to him. These are only my perceptions though. As much as one can really ever know another. It may be that I am even out of line trying to figure this out. All I know is that I feel totally inadequate to be of much help other than loving him and trusting God to be there beside him. I want to thank you all for your very helpful comments and insights. I am grateful that we don't have any real serious issues with our kids to have to worry about. And it isn't that I am worried about our son either, it is just that I want understand where he is coming from and be able to encourage him. As I read over all the responses received today, I feel a bit better equipped to understand and will hopefully be able to be more encouraging. I do know that I am not on par with him intellectually. For that I think he needs an older mentor that can challenge him and provide some intellectual depth that he hasn't been able to find apparently. I believe he will be OK. Shalom to all who shared and those who just have been praying on the side. Denny On Jan 2, 2008 7:55 PM, mhyde wrote: > Denney, > > > > I think I have been where your son is. I believe the comment about > destroying someone's faith is not an arrogant threat, nor ego talking. It's > fear?.. he has learned so much and it takes time for it to settle out in > our brains and for him to reformulate this thoughts and beliefs. It' kind > of like a 16 yr. old with a GTO, with a 454 and a 4 speed. "It'll out run > the cops!" I read somewhere once that our brains have to push old > knowledge out so new knowledge could get in?.. it is a process, sometimes > it takes longer with some of us then with others. Because of my personal > faith and my previous life style in the church I really struggled with > something's?. Other things left easier. I have noticed that with > religion and faith human intelligence and I.Q levels play a very small > part. Some of the smartest people give up their reasoning ability to keep > their faith / believe system. > > > > If your son has just pulled back some and continues to love and serve God > as best he can, I believe he will be alright. Sounds like he just needs > time to digest and contemplate his new found knowledge. Your job Dad?. Is > to listen and love him. > > > > During my darkest days I have held on to my faith in the God of Abraham, > Isaac and Jacob. > > > > If I might quote one of our teachers: Dr. James Tabor, > > You know, many speak in the churches of having a "personal relationship > with Jesus Christ." I read the Torah, Psalms, and Prophets and what comes > through is the personal relationship with YHVH that really rings clear in > text after text and it was THIS personal relationship that sustained Jesus > of Nazareth as a Jew who grew up in the faith: > > > > I am YHVH, and there is NONE beside me... > > Turn to ME and be saved, all the ends of the earth... > > You shall love YHVH your God and Him ONLY shall you serve > > You will seek me and find me if you search for me with all your heart > > Trust in YHVH always, for in YAH, Yehovah, is the Rock of the Ages > > I, even I, am YHVH; and besides me there is no Savior. > > > > Once one gets it this idea becomes the MOST inspiring thing imaginable. > How could it be that we who are but "dust and ashes," could turn our hearts, > DIRECTLY, with no mediators, to the Creator God, Yehovah, the God of Israel? > What an amazing thing, and yet each of us is invited, one by one, to "come > to me," and make YHVH our personal "Savior," to be forgiven, reconciled, and > "born again" of the Holy Spirit. And there is the promise then of intimacy, > help, guidance, and strength. > > > > Surely THIS and this alone is the BEDROCK of Biblical Faith...to know YHVH > and "walk" with Him... > > > > Sholam and Amen! > > > > marvin > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Denny Johnson > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 02, 2008 8:11 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith > > > > Dear fellow Dialoguers. > > > > I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. > > A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one > who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he > began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in > his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. > This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At > one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and > ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, > the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions > with some Jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since > going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the > apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of > delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach > his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply > struggling at this point in his journey. > > > > This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. > > > > What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. > He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith > with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. > > > > I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who > would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to > deal with this situation. > > > > Any thoughts or ideas? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > Shalom, > > Denny > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/ca44878c/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 2 22:36:48 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:36:48 -0600 Subject: RESPONSE[Dialogue] KIM NEEDS YOUR PRAYERS In-Reply-To: <903081.44057.qm@web57115.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01c84dc2$413c8aa0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thank- you Tammy, Denny and Hanoch for your prayers for Kim. She is going thru a very rough time now and all I can do is sit by while I love her, encourage her and continue to pray for her. Thank-you for joining me.and yes, it is a comfort to know that Hashem knows us through and through.Psa 139, affirms that and says that "he knit us together in our mothers' womb." BTW, I learned something very comforting and very beautiful when I was doing a study of water and how it symbolizes so many things in Torah and the Prophets.In the beginning of the world, the Torah says, there was water.that covered the face of the deep. or the waters.and in our beginnings as tiny fetuses in the womb, we are surrounded by and in "water." What I learned that meant so much to me was that the Hebrew words for "womb" and "compassion" have the same root (resh, chet, mem). If I am not mistaken, compassion is "rachem" and womb is "rachum". (Help me out here, Hanoch, or some of you know Hebrew). So, when He knit us together is our mothers' womb, it was in "rachem".in compassion. It doesn't matter whether our children are still young and growing up in our household or have left home, and are raising their own children, the ties that bind us to our children are like no other.:like "tender chords of love." I love these words. taken from one of the prophets (I will have to look up the verse), describing the love of Hashem for Ephraim. These are comforting things to think on and I wanted to share them with you. Love & Blessings, Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 5:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] KIM NEEDS YOUR PRAYERS Dearest Betty, I will certainly keep Kim in my prayers. I will ask HaShem to be with her and guide all of her decisions and help her to recognize His guidance. I truly believe that G-d knows our fears, understands our tears and knows the desires of our hearts. Just know that you will not be alone in praying for your daughter. Shalom my friend, Tammy Betty Givin wrote: Dear Friends, Many of you have met my daughter, Kim. Some have not, but have seen her name on our list as she tries to be a regular contributor to our dialogue inasmuch as she can be considering her present situation. Kim, like many of us, is always happy to request prayer for others and has, but reluctant to request it for herself. Last week, she did request prayer as to how to deal with a family situation; and since she is "my heart," I would like to ask that you continue to pray for her along these lines as she daily finds herself in a situation where she meets very strong opposition at every turn when she endeavors to honor Shabbat and to lead a Torah lifestyle. As she explained before, she lost her 3 year old son in 1993. Empty and broken, she pulled away from Hashem and Torah. When she met and married her second husband about five years ago, she still loved G-d and continued to pray, but was not particularly "religious," as some would say. In the past year of so, she has been very strongly pulled back to Hashem and Torah. In addition to the family situation at home, Kim needs direction in her job situation. Kim is very qualified, and for years has wanted to go back to school and could be successful in any number of jobs. However she always put her children first, and as a result has turned down many job opportunities over the years and has chosen instead to wait tables in the evenings and on Sundays so that she can have a schedule that will allow her to be with her children. She does not regret her decision to be home with the children in any way. It is just that now, another opportunity may be coming her way. She now has a very precocious little son who will be 4 this week. He has no friends to play with and simply loves and needs to be with other children, so Kim thought she could possibly put him in a day care type school and use this opportunity to be engaged in a career in which she would be challenged and be able to offer her talents and come closer to reaching her potential. She has recently begun an interview process for a position in a family law office practice. This job sounds like just the one for her as they would provide the training for her to become a para legal. She is hoping to obtain scholarships for school, which I feel certain that she should be able to do. She is very excited about the possibility of this job, but If hired, she would need to start off a little more than the base pay in order to offset the costs of child care. So please pray for Kim to have strength to deal with all that she has to deal with at home and for her to be guided in her upcoming decisions and that Hashem will go before her that she will find favor with the office manager of this particular law firm if this is the position for her. And if not, that He will provide just the right position for her. >From a mother's heart, Betty/Elisheva _______________________________________________ "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 _____ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/a01f7030/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 22:44:50 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:44:50 -0600 Subject: RESPONSE[Dialogue] KIM NEEDS YOUR PRAYERS In-Reply-To: <000e01c84dc2$413c8aa0$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <903081.44057.qm@web57115.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000e01c84dc2$413c8aa0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801022044g729a3767n84e675019442ee5b@mail.gmail.com> You can say that again, Betty.There is no blessing like children who call you blessed. May Kim rise up and call you blessed as she follows in your footsteps. Good night. Denny On Jan 2, 2008 10:36 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Thank- you Tammy, Denny and Hanoch for your prayers for Kim. She is > going thru a very rough time now and all I can do is sit by while I love > her, encourage her and continue to pray for her. Thank-you for joining > me?and yes, it is a comfort to know that Hashem knows us through and > through?Psa 139, affirms that and says that "he knit us together in our > mothers' womb." > > > > BTW, I learned something very comforting and very beautiful when I was > doing a study of water and how it symbolizes so many things in Torah and the > Prophets?In the beginning of the world, the Torah says, there was water?that > covered the face of the deep? or the waters?and in our beginnings as tiny > fetuses in the womb, we are surrounded by and in "water." > > > > What I learned that meant so much to me was that the Hebrew words for > "womb" and "compassion" have the same root (resh, chet, mem). If I am not > mistaken, compassion is "rachem" and womb is "rachum". (Help me out here, > Hanoch, or some of you know Hebrew). So, when He knit us together is our > mothers' womb, it was in "rachem"?in compassion. > > > > It doesn't matter whether our children are still young and growing up in > our household or have left home, and are raising their own children, the > ties that bind us to our children are like no other?:like "tender chords of > love?" I love these words? taken from one of the prophets (I will have to > look up the verse), describing the love of Hashem for Ephraim. > > > > These are comforting things to think on and I wanted to share them with > you. > > > > Love & Blessings, > > > > Betty > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Tammy & Bruce Croley > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 02, 2008 5:56 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] KIM NEEDS YOUR PRAYERS > > > > Dearest Betty, > I will certainly keep Kim in my prayers. I will ask HaShem to be with > her and guide all of her decisions and help her to recognize His guidance. > I truly believe that G-d knows our fears, understands our tears and knows > the desires of our hearts. Just know that you will not be alone in praying > for your daughter. > Shalom my friend, > Tammy > > *Betty Givin * wrote: > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > Many of you have met my daughter, Kim. Some have not, but have seen her > name on our list as she tries to be a regular contributor to our dialogue > inasmuch as she can be considering her present situation. Kim, like many of > us, is always happy to request prayer for others and has, but reluctant to > request it for herself. > > > > Last week, she did request prayer as to how to deal with a family > situation; and since she is "my heart," I would like to ask that you > continue to pray for her along these lines as she daily finds herself in a > situation where she meets very strong opposition at every turn when she > endeavors to honor Shabbat and to lead a Torah lifestyle. > > > > As she explained before, she lost her 3 year old son in 1993. Empty and > broken, she pulled away from Hashem and Torah. When she met and married her > second husband about five years ago, she still loved G-d and continued to > pray, but was not particularly "religious," as some would say. In the past > year of so, she has been very strongly pulled back to Hashem and Torah. > > > > In addition to the family situation at home, Kim needs direction in her > job situation. Kim is very qualified, and for years has wanted to go back to > school and could be successful in any number of jobs. However she always > put her children first, and as a result has turned down many job > opportunities over the years and has chosen instead to wait tables in the > evenings and on Sundays so that she can have a schedule that will allow her > to be with her children. She does not regret her decision to be home with > the children in any way. > > > > It is just that now, another opportunity may be coming her way. She now > has a very precocious little son who will be 4 this week. He has no friends > to play with and simply loves and needs to be with other children, so Kim > thought she could possibly put him in a day care type school and use this > opportunity to be engaged in a career in which she would be challenged and > be able to offer her talents and come closer to reaching her potential. > > > > She has recently begun an interview process for a position in a family law > office practice. This job sounds like just the one for her as they wouldprovide the training for > her to become a para legal. She is hoping to obtain scholarships for > school, which I feel certain that she should be able to do. She is very > excited about the possibility of this job, but If hired, she would need to > start off a little more than the base pay in order to offset the costs of > child care. > > > > So please pray for Kim to have strength to deal with all that she has to > deal with at home and for her to be guided in her upcoming decisions and > that Hashem will go before her that she will find favor with the office > manager of this particular law firm if this is the position for her. And if > not, that He will provide just the right position for her. > > > > From a mother's heart, > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my > every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very > good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely > dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do > only His will." > > Rabbi Nachman's > Wisdom 2 > > > ------------------------------ > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080102/ce24817b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jan 3 06:42:02 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 07:42:02 EST Subject: [Dialogue] 2 Quotes for Thursday, Jan 3rd Message-ID: Shalom to all - Two quotes to ponder today....may you all be blessed with a day filled with wonder. Hanoch And Hashem shall roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake; but Hashem will be a refuge unto His people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel. Joel 3:16 G-d has spoken once. Twice I have heard that power is G-d's. And Yours, O L-rd, is lovingkindness, for YOU repay every man according to his deeds. Psalm 62:12-13 **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/a08a5990/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jan 3 06:53:27 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 07:53:27 EST Subject: [Dialogue] To read: "The Shalom of Jerusalem" Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, An interesting article - Hanoch The Shalom of Jerusalem 25 Tevet 5768, 03 January 08 02:48 by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen (IsraelNN.com) "Request the shalom of Jerusalem." (Psalms 122:6) According to the commentaries of Radak and Metzudas David, this is a reminder that we should pray for the shalom of Jerusalem. The Hebrew term shalom is usually translated as "peace" - a word which refers to the absence of conflict, as well as the state of calmness that results from the absence of conflict. This translation, however, does not convey the full meaning of the term shalom, which is related to the Hebrew term shalem - "whole." Shalom is not just the absence of conflict among diverse forces, shalom is also the harmonious unity of these diverse forces, which leads to a state of wholeness. When we pray for the shalom of Jerusalem, we are not just praying for the peace of the city; we are also praying for the harmonious unity that will cause Jerusalem to be shalem - "whole." The ancient name of Jerusalem was Shalem, a name that first appears in the verse which refers to "Malkitzedek, king of Shalem." (Genesis 14:18) The ancient Aramaic translation of the Torah, Targum Onkelos, therefore translates the name Shalem in this verse as "Jerusalem." Another reference appears in the following verse from the Book of Psalms which refers to the site of the Temple: "When His Tabernacle was in Shalem, and His dwelling place in Zion." (Psalm 76:3) The true shalom of Jerusalem includes the wholeness of Jerusalem. In what way is Jerusalem to become whole? One answer is given by the commentator Radak. In his commentary on the above words, "Request the shalom of Jerusalem," he writes: "Request from the Blessed God the shalom of Jerusalem, and her shalom is the ingathering of the exiles." According to Radak, the restoration of the wholeness of Jerusalem depends on the ingathering of our exiles. A source for this idea is found in the following verse, which describes the redeeming role of HaShem, the Compassionate and Life-Giving One: "The Builder of Jerusalem is HaShem; He will gather in the dispersed of Israel." (Psalms 147:2) The Talmud cites the following explanation in the name of Rav Nachman: "When does HaShem build Jerusalem? When the dispersed of Israel are gathered in." (B'rochos 49a) As I studied the psalm, which calls upon us to request the shalom of Jerusalem, I discovered other explanations of the wholeness of Jerusalem. These explanations are based on the verse from the psalm that states: "The built-up Jerusalem is like a city that is joined together." (Psalm 122:3) The following interpretations of the words "joined together" reveal that this verse is referring to several levels of wholeness in the ideal Jerusalem: 1. Physical Wholeness: The city of Jerusalem - whose very name reminds us of wholeness - is to also be whole in the physical sense. The very appearance of Jerusalem is to express the meaning of her name. In this spirit, the commentator Sforno explains that Jerusalem was designed in a way that caused the newer sections of the city to blend perfectly with the older sections; thus, the entire Jerusalem appeared as a city whose various sections were built together. 2. Social Wholeness: The Jerusalem Talmud explains that the pilgrimage to the Temple in Jerusalem on the Festivals caused a spiritual elevation that inspired all the people to develop a greater commitment to the path of the Torah; thus, when they came to Jerusalem, they all became chaverim - friends - who were united through their observance of the Torah (Chagigah 3:6).Jerusalem therefore became a city where the People of Israel were joined together; and the Talmud cites the following commentary of Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi: "'The built-up Jerusalem is like a city that is joined together,' a city that causes all Israel to become chaverim." (ibid.) The following is a beautiful example of the social cohesiveness of Jerusalem. The Mishnah states that our ancestors experienced ten miracles in the Holy Temple, and the tenth miracle was when many pilgrims gathered in Jerusalem during the festivals, and no one said to his friend, "The space is insufficient for me to stay overnight in Jerusalem." (Pirkei Avos 5:7). In what way was this a miracle? Did the city miraculously expand to accommodate all the pilgrims? The Chasam Sofer, a leading sage of the early 19th century, explains that this was the miracle of love. The great love that the people had for each other as a result of the elevating pilgrimage enabled each person to find a place to stay, and even if many people were sharing a house, no one felt crowded. In Jerusalem, they were all joined together through love. 3. Holistic Wholeness: According to our tradition, there is a Heavenly Jerusalem that corresponds to the Earthly Jerusalem. The Talmud (Taanis 5a) finds a reference to this idea in the above verse, which describes Jerusalem as "a city that is joined together" - an allusion to the joining together of the Heavenly and Earthly Jerusalem. The commentator Rashi, in one of his explanations of the above verse, cites the following teaching of our sages: "There is the built-up Jerusalem in Heaven, and in the future, the earthly Jerusalem will be like the Heavenly Jerusalem." The wholeness of Jerusalem is the joining together of the Heavenly city with the Earthly city - a reminder that the spiritual and physical aspects of our existence are to become one. This holistic unity will be achieved when life in the Earthly Jerusalem will express the sacred and elevating spirit of the Heavenly Jerusalem. When the Earthly Jerusalem will be like the Heavenly Jerusalem, there will be a great manifestation of the Shechinah - the Divine Presence - within the Earthly Jerusalem. A reference to this idea appears in the following Divine promise regarding the Messianic age, which was conveyed to our people by the Prophet Zechariah: "Sing and be glad, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst - the word of HaShem." (Zechariah 2:14) "I will dwell in your midst" - "I will cause My Shechinah to dwell in your midst." (Targum Yonasan, an ancient Aramaic translation and commentary) The next verse reveals that the revelation of the Shechinah of HaShem in Jerusalem will have a universal and unifying influence: "Many nations will join themselves to HaShem on that day, and they will become a people unto Me; and I will dwell in your midst." (ibid. 2:15) The above prophecy of Zechariah reveals that many nations will join themselves to HaShem and thereby become one people. According to a related prophecy of Zechariah, this unifying process will begin when, "Many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek HaShem, God of the hosts of creation, in Jerusalem." (ibid. 8:22) The shalom of Jerusalem is destined to embrace all the nations; and this insight leads to the following awareness: When we request the shalom of Jerusalem, we are asking not just for our sake, but for the sake of the world. Related Teachings 1. If all the nations become one people through a shared spiritual vision, will all the diverse characteristics of each nation disappear into a "melting pot"? Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, a noted Biblical commentator of the 19th century, responds to this question. He writes: "Each nation may still retain its own characteristics and peculiarities, but must always use them and the way of life based upon them only in conformity with the supreme Divine moral law." (Commentary to Psalms 24:6) 2. In the age of universal shalom, we, the People of Israel, are to serve as kohanim - ministers - to the nations that will come to Jerusalem to seek HaShem. This vision is expressed in the following prophecy concerning our role in the Messianic age: "And you will be called the kohanim of HaShem, ?ministers of our God? will be said of you." (Isaiah 61:6) 3. On Shabbat evening, we refer to the shalom of Jerusalem in the following blessing: "Blessed are You, HaShem, Who spreads the shelter of shalom over us, over all His people, Israel, and over Jerusalem." **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/6e070692/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 13:09:50 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:09:50 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801031109m5761b1c8n1375333fe3d05f67@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, I would like to add a few words to the prayer request my mom posted. I was reluctant to have her include some of the details earlier. Five years ago, I was a general manager for a restaurant in Houston. This restaurant was only open for breakfast and lunch allowing me to be home in the evenings. I left this position when I married my husband and we decided to have a child. Shortly after I became pregnant, things started changing, and have gotten worse as time has progressed. For years I made the excuse that my husband's behavior was tied up in his failures at work. When he was offered an excellent opportunity in Louisiana, I agreed to leave Texas fully believing this was an answer to prayers and things would get better. Just the opposite has become the case. I have had no choice now but to come to the realization that I am in an emotionally abusive and controlling relationship. I pray for my husband daily and will continue to do so, but I don't honestly know how much longer I can stay in this situation. I can relate to the Torah portion this week. I feel that I am in Mitzram and that my husband is Pharaoh with his hardened heart. I have put myself in a terrible position career wise by working as a server and not using my education and talents to further my career. Please pray that I make the right decisions for the short term and for the long term. I want to do Ha Shem's will and not my own. I know this is not the purpose of the dialogue list, and I do not want to be a burden. I apologize if I am out of line. I respect all of you and cherish your posts so much. In search of HaShem's truth, Kim P.S. If any of you have my email address with charter, please do not use it to respond to me. I feel that only this address is secure. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/a8371521/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jan 3 13:19:01 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 14:19:01 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801031109m5761b1c8n1375333fe3d05f67@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0801031109m5761b1c8n1375333fe3d05f67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CA1C54A1CBB335-FBC-42C2@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com> Dear Kim, ??? My deepest prayers are with you...try to be strong and have courage.? You're never a burden - we all care for you deeply.? Having been through years of hell (and just NOW seeing the light at the end of the tunnel), there's much I can share with you, if you'd like. ??? But most importantly, you CAN and WILL get through this - too many people care for you for it not to.? And Kim - HaShem loves you - don't forget.? HE will guide you to make the right choices, and help you though the tight spots.? ??? We're here for you - please let me know what I can do to help - ??? Praying hard and sending every 'good vibe' I've got, ??????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 2:09 pm Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request Hello all, I would like to add a few words to the prayer request my mom posted.? I was reluctant to have her include some of the details earlier.? Five years ago, I was a general manager for a restaurant in Houston.? This restaurant was only open for breakfast and lunch allowing me to be home in the evenings.? I left this position when I married my husband and we decided to have a child.? Shortly after I became pregnant, things started changing, and have gotten worse as time has progressed.? For years I made the excuse that my husband's behavior was tied up in his failures at work.? When he was offered an excellent opportunity in Louisiana, I agreed to leave Texas fully believing this was an answer to prayers and things would get better.? Just the opposite has become the case.? I have had no choice now but to come to the realization that I am in an emotionally abusive and controlling relationship. ? I pray for my husband daily and will continue to do so, but I don't honestly know how much longer I can stay in this situation.?? I can relate to the Torah portion this week.? I feel that I am in Mitzram and that my husband is Pharaoh with his hardened heart.? I have put myself in a terrible position career wise by working as a server and not using my education and talents to further my career. Please pray that I make the right decisions for the short term and for the long term.? I want to do Ha Shem's will and not my own.? I know this is not the purpose of the dialogue list, and I do not want to be a burden.? I apologize if I am out of line.? I respect all of you and cherish your posts so much.? In search of HaShem's truth, Kim P.S.? If any of you have my email address with charter, please do not use it to respond to me.? I feel that only this address is secure. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/86c2bb94/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Thu Jan 3 13:28:07 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 19:28:07 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Message-ID: <010320081928.19841.477D37470005525400004D8122243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> I'm just curious since Yeshua was decended from two Davidic lines. Would he not of technically been a King anyway? I'm asking this because of the Ossuary that states. "Yeshua bar Yosef?" had Yosef been his father? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/284c1593/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 13:28:42 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:28:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801031109m5761b1c8n1375333fe3d05f67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <777333.70020.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dearest Kim, Please know that you have been in my prayers ever since Betty expressed the need. I will continue to pray for HaShem to guide you and help you know the right path to take. I have never experienced what you are going through, but I know people who have. I will pray for HaShem to give you the strength to go forward ...... following His lead .....in whatever that direction that may be. Shalom, Tammy kim alvarado wrote: Hello all, I would like to add a few words to the prayer request my mom posted. I was reluctant to have her include some of the details earlier. Five years ago, I was a general manager for a restaurant in Houston. This restaurant was only open for breakfast and lunch allowing me to be home in the evenings. I left this position when I married my husband and we decided to have a child. Shortly after I became pregnant, things started changing, and have gotten worse as time has progressed. For years I made the excuse that my husband's behavior was tied up in his failures at work. When he was offered an excellent opportunity in Louisiana, I agreed to leave Texas fully believing this was an answer to prayers and things would get better. Just the opposite has become the case. I have had no choice now but to come to the realization that I am in an emotionally abusive and controlling relationship. I pray for my husband daily and will continue to do so, but I don't honestly know how much longer I can stay in this situation. I can relate to the Torah portion this week. I feel that I am in Mitzram and that my husband is Pharaoh with his hardened heart. I have put myself in a terrible position career wise by working as a server and not using my education and talents to further my career. Please pray that I make the right decisions for the short term and for the long term. I want to do Ha Shem's will and not my own. I know this is not the purpose of the dialogue list, and I do not want to be a burden. I apologize if I am out of line. I respect all of you and cherish your posts so much. In search of HaShem's truth, Kim P.S. If any of you have my email address with charter, please do not use it to respond to me. I feel that only this address is secure. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/705a580a/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Thu Jan 3 14:02:00 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen Dennis) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:02:00 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request References: <1c8dbb6e0801031109m5761b1c8n1375333fe3d05f67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004901c84e43$813d6940$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Dear Kim Thinking of you and praying that you may receive wisdom and strength for the way ahead. With love from Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: kim alvarado To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 3:09 PM Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request Hello all, I would like to add a few words to the prayer request my mom posted. I was reluctant to have her include some of the details earlier. Five years ago, I was a general manager for a restaurant in Houston. This restaurant was only open for breakfast and lunch allowing me to be home in the evenings. I left this position when I married my husband and we decided to have a child. Shortly after I became pregnant, things started changing, and have gotten worse as time has progressed. For years I made the excuse that my husband's behavior was tied up in his failures at work. When he was offered an excellent opportunity in Louisiana, I agreed to leave Texas fully believing this was an answer to prayers and things would get better. Just the opposite has become the case. I have had no choice now but to come to the realization that I am in an emotionally abusive and controlling relationship. I pray for my husband daily and will continue to do so, but I don't honestly know how much longer I can stay in this situation. I can relate to the Torah portion this week. I feel that I am in Mitzram and that my husband is Pharaoh with his hardened heart. I have put myself in a terrible position career wise by working as a server and not using my education and talents to further my career. Please pray that I make the right decisions for the short term and for the long term. I want to do Ha Shem's will and not my own. I know this is not the purpose of the dialogue list, and I do not want to be a burden. I apologize if I am out of line. I respect all of you and cherish your posts so much. In search of HaShem's truth, Kim P.S. If any of you have my email address with charter, please do not use it to respond to me. I feel that only this address is secure. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/1adb29ae/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 16:59:34 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:59:34 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801031109m5761b1c8n1375333fe3d05f67@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0801031109m5761b1c8n1375333fe3d05f67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801031459v1b3062f8s1f58c9ae688c238@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kim, My heart goes out to you. There are too many men out there who do not appreciate their wives. I have seen more of that in Christian circles than I care to admit. It seems many use the scriptures to keep women down, in their place, etc. It is so wrong. Not to try to fix your situation, but I wonder if you happen to have watched Rabbi Chaim Richman's wife's video teaching on man and woman at www.universaltorah.org. Is that something you could get your husband to watch with you? I watched it with my wife and found it very insightful. Just a thought that crossed my mind. Anyway, I will be holding you up to our Abba. Know that he hears your cry as he heard his children in Egypt as you already acknowledged in your comments. I sometimes get angry with G-d in life situations. And that's OK. He understands. Hang in there, Kim. He will lead...open doors...protect you. You are His. I wish I could take your pain away. Hopefully it helps you to know that there are many out here that are in your corner. You aren't alone. Shalom, Denny On Jan 3, 2008 1:09 PM, kim alvarado wrote: > Hello all, > > I would like to add a few words to the prayer request my mom posted. I > was reluctant to have her include some of the details earlier. Five years > ago, I was a general manager for a restaurant in Houston. This restaurant > was only open for breakfast and lunch allowing me to be home in the > evenings. I left this position when I married my husband and we decided to > have a child. Shortly after I became pregnant, things started changing, and > have gotten worse as time has progressed. For years I made the excuse that > my husband's behavior was tied up in his failures at work. When he was > offered an excellent opportunity in Louisiana, I agreed to leave Texas fully > believing this was an answer to prayers and things would get better. Just > the opposite has become the case. I have had no choice now but to come to > the realization that I am in an emotionally abusive and controlling > relationship. I pray for my husband daily and will continue to do so, but > I don't honestly know how much longer I can stay in this situation. I can > relate to the Torah portion this week. I feel that I am in Mitzram and that > my husband is Pharaoh with his hardened heart. > > I have put myself in a terrible position career wise by working as a > server and not using my education and talents to further my career. Please > pray that I make the right decisions for the short term and for the long > term. I want to do Ha Shem's will and not my own. > > I know this is not the purpose of the dialogue list, and I do not want to > be a burden. I apologize if I am out of line. I respect all of you and > cherish your posts so much. > > In search of HaShem's truth, > > Kim > > P.S. If any of you have my email address with charter, please do not use > it to respond to me. I feel that only this address is secure. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/c467d0bc/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Jan 3 18:22:35 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:22:35 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Message-ID: <010420080022.20588.477D7C4A0008851E0000506C22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Tammy, Are you asking James? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- I'm just curious since Yeshua was decended from two Davidic lines. Would he not of technically been a King anyway? I'm asking this because of the Ossuary that states. "Yeshua bar Yosef?" had Yosef been his father? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/c1f211b9/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jan 3 19:23:00 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:23:00 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Is Judah hiding the light? Message-ID: <8CA1C877AA2773E-C60-43F@FWM-D27.sysops.aol.com> Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, ??? In a separate post, John mentioned that it would be helpful if Judah didn't 'hide the light.' ?I'm paraphrasing, so John, please forgive me if I'm misrepresenting what you wrote.? But essentially, it leads to the concept of, since part of the responsibility of the Jewish people is to serve as a "Light to the Nations," why does that light seemed to be tucked away somewhere??? ???A few years ago, I heard Rabbi Shmuley Boteach (author, and host of various talk shows) speak about that very issue - of presenting Torah, and Torah values 'out there' (cyberspace, the world, etc) into the 'marketplace of ideas,'? which is what he called it.? Well folks, it's a bit easier said then done.? So, once again I'm going to throw a question out to you folks - How can we (the Jewish people) do a better job of communicating/teaching/sharing Torah with those seeking it?? This is actually a different question then I asked the other week, so please think about it and let me know, okay?? ?? I'm hoping to utilize what you folks share with me in a presentation, likely an article, and possibly - even a book....? :-) ???I'm eagerly awaiting your responses... ?? B'Ahavat Yisrael, ???????? Hanoch ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/37b0414b/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Thu Jan 3 20:04:56 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 02:04:56 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Message-ID: <010420080204.18283.477D9448000A2A900000476B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Asking anyone for their thoughts really. : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/1d7b0274/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jan 3 20:55:56 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:55:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Is Judah hiding the light? In-Reply-To: <8CA1C877AA2773E-C60-43F@FWM-D27.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA1C877AA2773E-C60-43F@FWM-D27.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <48E56E51-F42B-4B9E-9179-8C85E06036AC@earthlink.net> On "hiding the light," we have to keep in mind it is ISRAEL, the entire nation, not just one tribe, Judah, who was given that commission. Judah has "withdrawn" from the nations for good reasons, and it is only as Israel identifies itself and strands strongly WITH Judah that the ideal can be realized. This is the point of the wonderful book by Rabbi Benamozegh, Israel and Humanity. I highly recommend this book. Best, James On Jan 3, 2008, at 8:23 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: > Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, > > In a separate post, John mentioned that it would be helpful if > Judah didn't 'hide the light.' I'm paraphrasing, so John, please > forgive me if I'm misrepresenting what you wrote. But essentially, > it leads to the concept of, since part of the responsibility of the > Jewish people is to serve as a "Light to the Nations," why does that > light seemed to be tucked away somewhere? > > A few years ago, I heard Rabbi Shmuley Boteach (author, and host > of various talk shows) speak about that very issue - of presenting > Torah, and Torah values 'out there' (cyberspace, the world, etc) > into the 'marketplace of ideas,' which is what he called it. Well > folks, it's a bit easier said then done. So, once again I'm going > to throw a question out to you folks - How can we (the Jewish > people) do a better job of communicating/teaching/sharing Torah with > those seeking it? This is actually a different question then I > asked the other week, so please think about it and let me know, okay? > > I'm hoping to utilize what you folks share with me in a > presentation, likely an article, and possibly - even a book.... :-) > > I'm eagerly awaiting your responses... > > B'Ahavat Yisrael, > Hanoch > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/0f7445ee/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 21:02:04 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:02:04 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Is Judah hiding the light? In-Reply-To: <8CA1C877AA2773E-C60-43F@FWM-D27.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA1C877AA2773E-C60-43F@FWM-D27.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801031902t1076ed6fs86898c26b0320825@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch, If you are talking about an internet presence in particular, I think there ARE some very good websites that provide light for those who are seeking such as AISH.com, Chabod.com. I have used these sites extensively for information about the message and activities of Judaism. Then of course there are the patriots of Israel International Radio and the Temple Institute bringing the message to the masses who are trying to wake up Israel and the diaspora. I listen to these regularly. In regards to the Jewish community doing good works: I don't live near a Jewish community, but I hear that they are very generous and do many wonderful things to help others without beating the drums and drawing attention to themselves...just doing mitsva. I would say that they are being a light in many ways. I know a very nice Jew. His name is Hanoch and he can't help but let his light shine in spite of his own struggles by using kind words to share the love of his Abba. I would expect many Jews to be rather reticent with regards to promoting themselves and Judaism considering the persecution that many have endured from their supposed brothers in within the Christian world. I can't blame them. Hanoch, you made a reference to Shmuley Boteach in your post. I think someone recently posted one of his articles regarding the positive influences of the Shabbat. I totally agree with him. If more Jews, and gentiles who love Hashem, would open their homes with hospitality as our father Abraham, and welcome in others who have never had the experience of the sabbath, then the light of Hashem would shine very brightly indeed. As your gentile brothers, when we share the shabbat (as we are preparing even tonight to do) with some new outsiders tomorrow night, we also bless you as his chosen people and Hashem by declaring Him to be our One and Only G-d, creator of heaven and earth, our provider, sustainer and salvation. We also remind ourselves weekly that we are not God and that we live in total dependence upon the One who made us and has blessed us with all that we enjoy. This then is reflected throughout the week by hearts of gratitude that spill over to all that we rub shoulders with in our neighborhoods, the workplace, the community and most of all, our families. But, like everything else we do on a repetitive basis, it can become routine, boring and just done dutifully. If the Jews are to revive and rekindle the light of Hashem, they need to see the blessing of the shabbat, not done in legalism, but as Yeshua taught it. He ate and drank with sinners. Take that thought and continue the dialogue. How can the Jew bring the sinner (what ever that means to you as a Jew; possibly simply one who is not torah observant and ignorant) and show him the blessedness of the Shabbat. A neighbor, or a co-worker maybe that asks you about what you are doing for the weekend would be the most likely candidate. As gentiles, that is OUR most effective tool to lead people into the truths of torah and obedience. It not that we have arrived, but we let them come into our home and see us, warts and all, enjoying our growing walk with G-d. They see the joy, experience the tangible love that we share and that llight changes lives. You are a good man to even ask the question, Hanoch. It shows your true heart. Love ya man! Shabbat Shalom, Denny P.S. We have 11 coming to our shabbat tomorrow. After dinner we will be watching a video by Rob Bell on his citywide "Everything is Spiritual" lecture tour, where he teaches in a most unusual way, from Genisis, God's unique plan of Shabbat. It is really incredible. http://shop.everythingisspiritual.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/8cca306e/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jan 3 21:13:07 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:13:07 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua In-Reply-To: <010320081928.19841.477D37470005525400004D8122243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <010320081928.19841.477D37470005525400004D8122243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: Tammy, just a few comments that may or may not get at what you are thinking here... There were (and are today) numerous descendants of David, any one of which could potentially qualify as "David's seed," and thus became a candidate for anointing as king/messiah if chosen by God or anointed by the Prophet. I am of the view that the genealogy Matthew provides is that of Joseph, while Luke gives Mary's genealogy. Many scholars disagree but I find this convincing as you know from my book. It also means that the bloodline went from David through Nathan, not through Solomon. Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," as we see in John 1:45 and elsewhere. I am not sure I am getting at all you are asking though so please clarify if need be. Take care, James On Jan 3, 2008, at 2:28 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: > I'm just curious since Yeshua was decended from two Davidic lines. > Would he not of technically been a King anyway? I'm asking this > because of the Ossuary that states. "Yeshua bar Yosef?" had Yosef > been his father? > _______________________________________________ From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jan 3 21:42:45 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:42:45 EST Subject: [Dialogue] G-d will judge..... Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Some interesting reading for you this Shabbat. This is written by Rav Nachman Kahane, the older brother of my teacher, Rav Meir Kahane (May G-d avenge his blood). I always find his articles thought provoking....you can find them at: _www.ou.org_ (http://www.ou.org/) under the Shabbat Shalom section. Hanoch Parashat Va?eira: God Will Judge Them in Sword and Blood By Rabbi Nachman Kahana Parashat Vaeira 5768 Our Egyptian bondage experience and subsequent miraculous exodus (yitzirat Mitzrayim) play a conspicuous role in our liturgy. In addition to the Pesach festival dedicated to these historical events, we recall the Exodus every time we recite Kiddush. It is the closing recitation of the daily pesukay de?zimra, it links kri?at shema and the amida prayer in the morning and at night, and it is a major theme in the second blessing of birkat hamazon. With all due respect to the suffering (although my forefathers from the tribe of Levi were not slaves) and the enormous miracles which HaShem performed for the Children of Israel; I would nevertheless think that the major thrust of the liturgy should be the receiving of the Torah on Mount Sinai, which was one of the two purposes of the Exodus (the other being the liberation of Eretz Yisrael). A more basic question: What does the Egyptian experience mean for us today - 3000 years later? The calluses are long gone from our hands and the scars are no longer noticeable. And perhaps the ultimate question: Why did we have to undergo the Egyptian experience? As we draw closer to the finale of history, the answers to these questions loom ever larger. They are based on the principle determined by King Solomon in Kohelet (1:9) ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? What was shall be again, and what was done shall be done again; and there is nothing new under the sun The Malbim (Harav Meir Laibish ben Yechiel Michal), in his commentary on the Book of Yechezkel (32,17), states: It will come to pass in the end of days, after the Jewish people will return to the Land of Israel, that the nations will come together in an attempt to cap ture Yerushalayim. The prophet names the nations who will come. Gog, the king of Meshech, and Tuval from the north and west who are uncircumcised and called "Edom" and who are the descendants of Yefet living now in Europe. And Paras, Kush, and the House of Turgama, who are all circumcised and adhering to the belief of Yishmael, will join with the children of Edom to attempt to capture the Land of Israel from the Jews. But when they arrive, they will create chaos amongst themselves and make war on each other. That is, Edom will make war on Yishmael because their beliefs are different. And there God will judge them in sword and blood as stated by the prophet Zecharia chapter 14. And here the prophet (Yechezkel) relates how they all will be lost; and singles out Egypt, Ashur and Elam who adhere to the religon of Yishmael and are today circumcised. He then mentions Meshech, Tuval and Edom, their kings and princes from the north who are all uncircumcised. And between them will there be a war. The first to be utterly destroyed will be the Egyptians, who are the closest to the Land of Israel and will come forward first and fall. Then the Assyrians and Persians will come to avenge their ally and they all will be destroyed. Had the the Malbim lived today,he would have been more specific: It will come to pass in the end of the exile and the Jewish people will return to the Land of Israel, that many nations will come together in order to attempt to capture Yerushalayim. The nations who will come are from the north and west and include the European Union and the nations which comprised the former Soviet Union who are all uncircumcised and called "Edom," the descendants of Yefet living now in Europe and adhere to the Christian faith. And Iran, the Arab peoples, and the House of Saud who are all circumcised and adhere to the faith of Yishmael, will join with the children of Edom to attempt to capture the Land of Israel from the Children of Israel. But when they arrive, they will create chaos among themselves and make war on each other. That is, the Christians from Europe will make war on the Muslims because their beliefs are different. And there God will judge them in sword and blood as stated by the prophet Zecharia chapter 14. And here the prophet (Yechezkel) describes how they will be lost. He singles out Egypt, Syria and Iran who adhere to the religion of Yishmael and are circumcised. Then Meshech, Tuval and Edom, their kings and princes from the north, who are uncircumcised, and between them will be a war. The first to be utterly destroyed will be the Egyptians who are the closest to the Land of Israel, who will come forward first and fall. Then the Syrians and Iranians will come to avenge their fallen ally, and they all will be destroyed. The Egyptian experience, which concluded with the destruction of the entire Egyptian army, was brought about by HaShem to serve as an historical precedent for what will be in store for the contemporary Egyptian enemies of the State of Israel, as well as the Iranians etc., who will follow them. Last week, our Foreign Minister conveyed to the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense committee that not only are the Egyptians derelict in their obligations to seal off the southern border of the Gaza Strip, but they are systematically helping and abetting the Chamas murderers to smuggle in weapons and explosives for their Islamic fascist army. When the Egyptians? feathers became ruffled due to the disclosure, our Defense Minister was sent to assuage their sensitivities and apologized for noticing the Egyptian violations. Egypt maintains the largest army in the Middle East, supplied by the United States. But who is threatening them? Sudan or Ethiopia to the south? Lybia to the west? And against whom does their propaganda machine churn out daily diatribes, which would do honor to Herr Goebbels? Shlomo Hamelech said: What was shall be again, and what was done shall be done again; and there is nothing new under the sun But this time, it will not be Yam Suf (Red Sea) which will serve as the vehicle of our salvation. It will be the Russian-built Aswan Dam. The dam is one of most impressive in the world. It is 980-meters thick at the base and 40 meters at the top, 3600 meters long and 111 meters high. The dam created Lake Nasser, 500 kilometers long with a width ranging from 10 to 30 km and water capacity of 157 billion cubic meters, the second in the world after that of the Zambezi. Yitro, upon being told by Moshe the details of the ten plagues, was overwhelmed. Since he had been privy to the diabolical plans of Paro against the Jews, he now saw that HaShem had turned every detail of persecution into a "boomerang" against the Egyptians. The Russo-Egyptian military treaty, which caused the Six Day and Yom Kippur Wars and called for the construction of the Aswan Dam, will be the Achilles Heel in the future punishment of our most dangerous enemy. If I were CNN or Fox news, when hostilities breakout, I would keep my cameras fixed on the Dam and the Lake. All this was known to our rabbis. So they brought the Egyptian experience to the fore in Kiddush and other liturgical places to keep the message alive - that as in the past, HaShem will not forsake His people Israel who have absolute faith in His Word. Shabbat Shalom Nachman Kahana **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080103/8f3fee15/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Thu Jan 3 22:02:20 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:02:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua In-Reply-To: References: <010320081928.19841.477D37470005525400004D8122243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <001801c84e86$9c610f90$0200a8c0@marvin> James, You said: "Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," I agree with adoption and Yeshua legally being the son of Joseph, thus having the "Yeshua bar Yosef" title. But if the pregnancy out of wedlock is historical then would that not disqualify Yeshua from the throne of David? marvin -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Tammy, just a few comments that may or may not get at what you are thinking here... There were (and are today) numerous descendants of David, any one of which could potentially qualify as "David's seed," and thus became a candidate for anointing as king/messiah if chosen by God or anointed by the Prophet. I am of the view that the genealogy Matthew provides is that of Joseph, while Luke gives Mary's genealogy. Many scholars disagree but I find this convincing as you know from my book. It also means that the bloodline went from David through Nathan, not through Solomon. Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," as we see in John 1:45 and elsewhere. I am not sure I am getting at all you are asking though so please clarify if need be. Take care, James On Jan 3, 2008, at 2:28 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: > I'm just curious since Yeshua was decended from two Davidic lines. > Would he not of technically been a King anyway? I'm asking this > because of the Ossuary that states. "Yeshua bar Yosef"" had Yosef > been his father? > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From RNDAVAR at aol.com Thu Jan 3 23:29:31 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 00:29:31 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Friends with a Mutual Purpose Message-ID: Shalom all! I am off of work tomorrow for a much needed break. I hope to use the time for some study and relaxation getting ready for Saturday morning. I also intend to help around the house a bit. I am trying my best to keep up with all of the activity that this Dialogue is generating. It pleases me to read all of the notes and to find that this list is helping people feel connected. This is one thing that I feel has been missing for many who are searching for the "good way" among the ancient paths. That we have such ways for people to meet new friends and discuss topics that one encounters as they search for answers is quite incredible. I am now regularly receiving notes from people who are finding our weekly lessons helpful. Many of you that have joined this dialogue list have written both on and off the list that this is filling a void. Thanks to all of you for making this Dialogue useful. Our common goal should be to advance the Kingdom of God on earth. A major part of that is to teach the torah to the nations. Our differences are likely to exceed our common points, but "advancement" comes from working on mutual learning through open advocacy and authentic inquiry. I define these terms and give examples on my web site in the description about "the Dialogue". I hope to catch up on some correspondence between now and Tuesday. I feel that we are in many ways truly becoming a family here. I am humbled to be a part of such a group where people feel comfortable enough to share personal needs with others that they have not even met face to face. This is perfectly acceptable on this list. No one need apologize for this. Everyone needs friends. It is important for all of us to remember that the very first thing that God is NOT good is for man to be alone. We are "wired" for companionship by our Creator. It is a natural tendency to seek fellowship. I want to encourage all of you to make this list and the synagogue without walls a "place" of assembly where you can go to ask questions, ask for prayer, etc. There are drawbacks to this type of communication, but there is also something quite powerful and effective about the written word. Interpretation is always a challenge, but I want everyone to "assume" that the other person is being authentic and genuine first. When someone puts something "out there" for others to consider, carefully consider what has been presented before disagreeing. Often, we learn from those that may not see things the way that we see them. Try to understand where the person is coming from. Two decades ago I saw things differently than I do at this point. I seek to learn from every single exchange that I enter into, whether that be on this list or in face to face conversation. I have not always believed like this. Be patient with each other and remember the goal. Our mutual purpose should be to advance the kingdom of God on earth. Conversations that cause strife and contention never advance the goals of the Kingdom. I mentioned this the other day in a note, but want to repeat it here. It comes from the Sayings of the Fathers. "Any dispute that is for the sake of Heaven will have a constructive outcome; but one that is not for the sake of the Heaven will not have a constructive outcome." I carry around with me in my bag several things that have significance for me. One of those things is a copy of a sheet that a young David Horowitz typed on his computer. It outlines his core beliefs which form the basis of what UIWU stands for. It says: Aim - To study, learn, practice and preach original Biblical truths in all its simplicity without pomp, fanfare, tyranny, hypocrisy or fanaticism. This is more and more part of who I seek to become and what I seek to accomplish. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/eed0fdd1/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Thu Jan 3 23:33:55 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 00:33:55 EST Subject: [Dialogue] My Journey and Associates (James Tabor, UIWU, Lost Tribes) Message-ID: In a message dated 1/1/2008 3:47:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, rlibby03 at maine.rr.com writes: I spent many Novembers there as well as you did in our beginnings. Great times. Dick L Dick, I hope to see you soon. I always enjoy our conversations and am very thankful that you are with me here on this list. I actually thought of you today at work. I was walking to a meeting and was alone. I was thinking to myself that I would freeze before I reached the conference room. It is slightly below 30 with the wind chill here. This is when I thought of you and our Northern friends. I realize that you all would love to see 30:) We can't handle the cold here. Shalom and thanks for joining with us. Love to you and yours! Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/a0735d05/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Thu Jan 3 23:43:16 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 00:43:16 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hebrew Study for 2008 Message-ID: James, Thanks for this list of passages. This is truly a wonderful idea! I would also like to invite you to check out my "learn Hebrew page" - _http://rootsoffaith.org/Learn_Biblical_Hebrew.htm_ (http://rootsoffaith.org/Learn_Biblical_Hebrew.htm) There are several things there that may assist you in your studies in the language of God. These are works in progress but there are some helpful things here. I have recently uploaded a "vocabulary guide" that I wrote several years ago when I was learning Hebrew. It is in pdf and so you should be able to click and open it, then save it and print it out. It has the top 1,000 most frequently used words in the Hebrew Bible. It has an index, etc. It is free to any and all that want it. You can make copies of it, share it with friends etc. I would encourage all of you to send me your comments and suggestions for improvement. Years ago I felt that "Christians" should study Hebrew and so wanted to promote this idea among Christians, but many that are not Christians may find it useful as well. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/b34dcaa1/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jan 3 23:59:09 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 00:59:09 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hebrew Study for 2008 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One is reminded of the passage about the "sapha barurah" from the Prophet Zephaniah: Zeph. 3:9 For then will I turn toward the peoples of a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of Jehovah, to serve him with one shoulder. Literally this means a "shining" or "clean" lip. Seem to be the opposite of what happened at Babel... James On Jan 4, 2008, at 12:43 AM, RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: > James, > > Thanks for this list of passages. This is truly a wonderful idea! > > I would also like to invite you to check out my "learn Hebrew page" > - http://rootsoffaith.org/Learn_Biblical_Hebrew.htm > > There are several things there that may assist you in your studies > in the language of God. These are works in progress but there are > some helpful things here. I have recently uploaded a "vocabulary > guide" that I wrote several years ago when I was learning Hebrew. > It is in pdf and so you should be able to click and open it, then > save it and print it out. It has the top 1,000 most frequently used > words in the Hebrew Bible. It has an index, etc. It is free to any > and all that want it. You can make copies of it, share it with > friends etc. > > I would encourage all of you to send me your comments and > suggestions for improvement. Years ago I felt that "Christians" > should study Hebrew and so wanted to promote this idea among > Christians, but many that are not Christians may find it useful as > well. > > Shalom, Ross > > Ross K. Nichols > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/b162a085/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 4 00:05:51 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:05:51 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Message-ID: <010420080605.9129.477DCCBF000101AA000023A922218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> I was considering that if Joseph was the true father of Yeshua wouldn't Yeshua have still been in the Davidic line as a King considering both of his parents were descended from the Davidic line. From what I've studied, once a woman was betrothed, the couple could then have relations before the marriage. I understand the reasoning of the Virgin Birth but was that concept completely necessary to fulfill biblical prophecy? Why couldn't Yeshua have been of legitimate birth and still be the Messiah? Tammy, just a few comments that may or may not get at what you are thinking here... There were (and are today) numerous descendants of David, any one of which could potentially qualify as "David's seed," and thus became a candidate for anointing as king/messiah if chosen by God or anointed by the Prophet. I am of the view that the genealogy Matthew provides is that of Joseph, while Luke gives Mary's genealogy. Many scholars disagree but I find this convincing as you know from my book. It also means that the bloodline went from David through Nathan, not through Solomon. Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," as we see in John 1:45 and elsewhere. I am not sure I am getting at all you are asking though so please clarify if need be. Take care, James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/f3c8c3d6/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Fri Jan 4 00:15:52 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 01:15:52 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Friends with a Mutual Purpose Message-ID: I made a mistake in this note where I said that David Horowitz typed this on his "computer". I meant to say that he typed it on his typewriter. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/84e9ffbb/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 01:20:12 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 02:20:12 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hebrew Study for 2008 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <393FF88B-2142-4F52-A8AB-77AA22543345@earthlink.net> Attached is another document of interest with lots of good basic Hebrew terms...Hanoch might want to explain some of these to us. James On Jan 4, 2008, at 12:43 AM, rndavar at aol.com wrote: > James, > > Thanks for this list of passages. This is truly a wonderful idea! > > I would also like to invite you to check out my "learn Hebrew page" > - http://rootsoffaith.org/Learn_Biblical_Hebrew.htm > > There are several things there that may assist you in your studies > in the language of God. These are works in progress but there are > some helpful things here. I have recently uploaded a "vocabulary > guide" that I wrote several years ago when I was learning Hebrew. > It is in pdf and so you should be able to click and open it, then > save it and print it out. It has the top 1,000 most frequently used > words in the Hebrew Bible. It has an index, etc. It is free to any > and all that want it. You can make copies of it, share it with > friends etc. > > I would encourage all of you to send me your comments and > suggestions for improvement. Years ago I felt that "Christians" > should study Hebrew and so wanted to promote this idea among > Christians, but many that are not Christians may find it useful as > well. > > Shalom, Ross > > Ross K. Nichols > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/e225aaa0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BasicHebrewConcepts.doc Type: application/octet-stream Size: 26112 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/e225aaa0/attachment.obj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/e225aaa0/attachment-0001.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 4 07:12:52 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:12:52 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hebrew Study for 2008 Message-ID: Boker tov James! I will be more then happy to - just need to go into the city and buy some food for Shabbat. But I hope to write more later. Thanks for the suggestion! :-) Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/5a1dbd2d/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 4 07:17:17 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:17:17 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat's Quote Message-ID: Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch And the Egyptians shall know that I am Hashem, when I stretch forth My hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.' And Moses and Aaron did as Hashem commanded them, so did they do. Exodus 7: 5-6 **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/34bc65eb/attachment.html From wokdelight at yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 08:02:29 2008 From: wokdelight at yahoo.com (Vickie Pilkerton) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 06:02:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Animal sacrifices for today? Message-ID: <462074.48731.qm@web58302.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Your thoughts please.... There seems to be a lot of difference among Messianic believers. My question and concern is that I have run across some that say we should be rebuilding the temple now , here in the USA (not in Jerusalem) and offering animal sacrifices to usher in Yeshua's return. Another theory I have encountered is that within the next year or so there will be a great exodus from all over the earth to Jerusalem, and these are not just Jewish people who believe Yeshua is Messiah, but also Torah observant gentiles. Those that are a part of this exodus will be leaving at a moment's notice, leaving behind their homes, vehicles, families etc. All who remain will be tortured, murdered and beheaded because they are "Believers". Only those who made the exodus will be hid safely away by G-d Himself. Is there any scriptural basis for these beliefs/teachings? Blessings to all, Vickie --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/31ee011c/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 08:03:44 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:03:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua In-Reply-To: <010420080605.9129.477DCCBF000101AA000023A922218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <010420080605.9129.477DCCBF000101AA000023A922218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <9CBB0E69-2BA5-4AB0-9E85-117D4B8CFFEE@earthlink.net> Yes, absolutely, with Joseph as the father he would more than qualify, though some point out the "curse" upon the lineage coming down from Solomon through Jeconiah. There is no prophecy of the messiah being born "of a virgin," i.e., without a father, Isa 7 notwithstanding, as you know if you read it in context. Most scholars do indeed believe that Jesus' father was Joseph. I mention the "illegitimacy" idea because of the reasons I discuss in my book, but this view, among historians at least, is a minority opiniion. Best, James On Jan 4, 2008, at 1:05 AM, Tamara Michael wrote: > I was considering that if Joseph was the true father of Yeshua > wouldn't Yeshua have still been in the Davidic line as a King > considering both of his parents were descended from the Davidic > line. From what I've studied, once a woman was betrothed, the couple > could then have relations before the marriage. I understand the > reasoning of the Virgin Birth but was that concept completely > necessary to fulfill biblical prophecy? Why couldn't Yeshua have > been of legitimate birth and still be the Messiah? > > > > > Tammy, just a few comments that may or may not get at what you are > thinking here... > > There were (and are today) numerous descendants of David, any one of > which could potentially qualify as "David's seed," and thus became a > candidate for anointing as king/messiah if chosen by God or anointed > by the Prophet. I am of the view that the genealogy Matthew provides > is that of Joseph, while Luke gives Mary's genealogy. Many scholars > disagree but I find this convincing as you know from my book. It also > means that the bloodline went from David through Nathan, not through > Solomon. > > Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the > pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam > anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" > the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," as we see > in John 1:45 and elsewhere. > > I am not sure I am getting at all you are asking though so please > clarify if need be. > > Take care, > > James > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/d044e1b5/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 08:58:44 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:58:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801031109m5761b1c8n1375333fe3d05f67@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0801031109m5761b1c8n1375333fe3d05f67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Precious Kim, just returned last night and am now trying to read and digest emails. Just want you to know that I read and have begun to pray for your needs. Love, Pat Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:09:50 -0600From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] prayer requestHello all,I would like to add a few words to the prayer request my mom posted. I was reluctant to have her include some of the details earlier. Five years ago, I was a general manager for a restaurant in Houston. This restaurant was only open for breakfast and lunch allowing me to be home in the evenings. I left this position when I married my husband and we decided to have a child. Shortly after I became pregnant, things started changing, and have gotten worse as time has progressed. For years I made the excuse that my husband's behavior was tied up in his failures at work. When he was offered an excellent opportunity in Louisiana, I agreed to leave Texas fully believing this was an answer to prayers and things would get better. Just the opposite has become the case. I have had no choice now but to come to the realization that I am in an emotionally abusive and controlling relationship. I pray for my husband daily and will continue to do so, but I don't honestly know how much longer I can stay in this situation. I can relate to the Torah portion this week. I feel that I am in Mitzram and that my husband is Pharaoh with his hardened heart. I have put myself in a terrible position career wise by working as a server and not using my education and talents to further my career. Please pray that I make the right decisions for the short term and for the long term. I want to do Ha Shem's will and not my own. I know this is not the purpose of the dialogue list, and I do not want to be a burden. I apologize if I am out of line. I respect all of you and cherish your posts so much. In search of HaShem's truth, KimP.S. If any of you have my email address with charter, please do not use it to respond to me. I feel that only this address is secure. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/92dc379d/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 10:25:29 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:25:29 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua In-Reply-To: <001801c84e86$9c610f90$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <010320081928.19841.477D37470005525400004D8122243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> <001801c84e86$9c610f90$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <178E7BF3-2F01-4584-974B-4022ADB88462@earthlink.net> Good and complex question Marvin and I have lots to say but just no time...I will save it and try to get to it. But the short answer is "no," based on God choosing often the "low" or "despised" and raising it up, specifically regarding the "throne," see Ezekiel 21:25-27 in particular. Also, contrary to common opinion the "royal" lineage could pass via the mother/female. There has been a lot of work on this, much of it by the Israeli scholar Tal Ilan... Rushing... James On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:02 PM, mhyde wrote: > James, > > You said: "Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I > take the > > pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam > anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" > the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," > > I agree with adoption and Yeshua legally being the son of Joseph, thus > having the "Yeshua bar Yosef" title. But if the pregnancy out of > wedlock is > historical then would that not disqualify Yeshua from the throne of > David? > > marvin > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:13 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua > > Tammy, just a few comments that may or may not get at what you are > thinking here... > > There were (and are today) numerous descendants of David, any one of > which could potentially qualify as "David's seed," and thus became a > candidate for anointing as king/messiah if chosen by God or anointed > by the Prophet. I am of the view that the genealogy Matthew provides > is that of Joseph, while Luke gives Mary's genealogy. Many scholars > disagree but I find this convincing as you know from my book. It also > means that the bloodline went from David through Nathan, not through > Solomon. > > Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the > pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam > anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" > the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," as we see > in John 1:45 and elsewhere. > > I am not sure I am getting at all you are asking though so please > clarify if need be. > > Take care, > > James > > > On Jan 3, 2008, at 2:28 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: > >> I'm just curious since Yeshua was decended from two Davidic lines. >> Would he not of technically been a King anyway? I'm asking this >> because of the Ossuary that states. "Yeshua bar Yosef"" had Yosef >> been his father? >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 4 10:51:47 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:51:47 EST Subject: [Dialogue] re: Hebrew Study for 2008 Message-ID: Shalom to all! James had asked me to clarify a few terms, and it's my pleasure! :-) Here we go: Shema - Considered by many to be THE central core of Torah Faith, from Deuteronomy 6:4. "Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-d, the L-rd is One." The Big Five Mishpat - law (as in 'legal code') Tzedekah - charity (but from the root of 'justice' ) ?Emunah - faith Chesed - literally 'favor' - but it refers to acts of kindness, or even charity ?Emet - truth Shabbat Shalom to all! Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/bfd5402a/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Fri Jan 4 11:06:03 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:06:03 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua In-Reply-To: <178E7BF3-2F01-4584-974B-4022ADB88462@earthlink.net> References: <010320081928.19841.477D37470005525400004D8122243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net><001801c84e86$9c610f90$0200a8c0@marvin> <178E7BF3-2F01-4584-974B-4022ADB88462@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002701c84ef4$18750c90$0200a8c0@marvin> James, Thanks for the reply. You pointed me in the direction, and like a bird dog on a pheasant, I will start searching. I understand the constraints on your time. I have always understood this. Publish when you can. marvin -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:25 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Good and complex question Marvin and I have lots to say but just no time...I will save it and try to get to it. But the short answer is "no," based on God choosing often the "low" or "despised" and raising it up, specifically regarding the "throne," see Ezekiel 21:25-27 in particular. Also, contrary to common opinion the "royal" lineage could pass via the mother/female. There has been a lot of work on this, much of it by the Israeli scholar Tal Ilan... Rushing... James On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:02 PM, mhyde wrote: > James, > > You said: "Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I > take the > > pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam > anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" > the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," > > I agree with adoption and Yeshua legally being the son of Joseph, thus > having the "Yeshua bar Yosef" title. But if the pregnancy out of > wedlock is > historical then would that not disqualify Yeshua from the throne of > David? > > marvin > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:13 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua > > Tammy, just a few comments that may or may not get at what you are > thinking here... > > There were (and are today) numerous descendants of David, any one of > which could potentially qualify as "David's seed," and thus became a > candidate for anointing as king/messiah if chosen by God or anointed > by the Prophet. I am of the view that the genealogy Matthew provides > is that of Joseph, while Luke gives Mary's genealogy. Many scholars > disagree but I find this convincing as you know from my book. It also > means that the bloodline went from David through Nathan, not through > Solomon. > > Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the > pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam > anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" > the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," as we see > in John 1:45 and elsewhere. > > I am not sure I am getting at all you are asking though so please > clarify if need be. > > Take care, > > James > > > On Jan 3, 2008, at 2:28 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: > >> I'm just curious since Yeshua was decended from two Davidic lines. >> Would he not of technically been a King anyway? I'm asking this >> because of the Ossuary that states. "Yeshua bar Yosef"" had Yosef >> been his father? >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 11:31:40 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:31:40 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of Faith Message-ID: Hi Denny, I've not read all the postings in answer to your post, so forgive me if I am repeating what others have said. I believe I may have felt as your sons feels. I have drawn back because of things learned many times. The struggle to return to Hashem after some of this has been difficult to say the least. When I have been in these situations, "hearing" Him has been almost impossible. There were times that I have told Him: "IF this is You, then I don't know You! And IF this is You, then I don't WANT to know You!!!!" But the one thing that has always guided me back to Him is the remembrance of the personal relationship I've shared with my Creator through His Word for all these years. Some of the things I've "learned" may or may not be trusted, but His one-on-one interaction with me, based always on what His Word teaches, can't be erased. The bottom line is that I've found His love can't be over-ridden by anything new I may "learn." That's not to say that these "new" things don't throw me for a loop at the time I come across them. But I've found it best to store any new knowledge on a mental shelf (neither declaring it valid, nor invalid), ask Him to reveal it's meaning (or lack thereof!) in His time, then wait (sometimes for years). It's a lot more difficult to do this with some things than with others, but I've found I can trust Him. To me, it's helpful to do what David did, and rehearse what Hashem has done in the past and will therefore surely do in the future. Referring here to what he said about facing Goliath: "The LORD that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, He will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine," I Samuel 17:37. Unfortunately, some of the things we learn are much like facing a killer beast! Should your son wish to share his concerns, I am always willing to listen. Since he has traversed a similar path to mine, it may well be that we have encountered some of the same obstacles. He needn't worry that he will hurt my faith by sharing. I know that feeling and have kept silent many times, when it would have been such a relief to be able to speak my concerns to someone. I may not have any answers, but I am willing to help in any way I can to bear the burden he carries, and in fact, would like to hear it. Shabbat Shalom, Pat Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:22:57 -0600From: dennyj at gmail.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] A Crisis of FaithDear fellow Dialoguers. I would like to begin a new thread based on a real life situation. A very dear friend of mine is going through a crisis of faith. He is one who was raised in the church, in a loving Christian family. Years ago he began his journey into the Hebrew Roots movement and became passionate in his studies, learning Hebrew and reading anything he could get his hands on. This led him into a very orthodox Jewish lifestyle for a period of time. At one point he even looked into conversion. He has since pulled back and ceased from his orthodoxy after realizing 'he tells us" that as a gentile, the laws of torah do not apply to him. This he learned from many discussions with some jewish rabbis. He now declares himself to be a Noahide. Since going down this path, he has lost most all of his faith in not only the apostolic writings, but the Hebrew Bible as well. All of this as a result of delving into textual criticism. His big concern now is what he should teach his children who are young. He is a good and moral man who is deeply struggling at this point in his journey. This is not a hypothetical situation. This loved one is our son. What should we tell him? He knows far more than we do about these things. He says that if he wanted to, he could easily destroy someone else's faith with what he now knows. We are at a loss as to what to say to him. I know that we have many sides represented here in this group. Many who would relate to where he is at and many who, hopefully, would know how to deal with this situation. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance. Shalom, Denny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/2bc1a54d/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 12:02:58 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:02:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Word for today Message-ID: Steve, this is great! In fact, before I left last week, I was trying to find that very Scripture as I was hearing it over and over in my spirit ("restore our fortunes"), but gave up because of rushing to leave. Thank you so much for submitting it as our "Word for today." I was thrilled to see it, and truly believe it should be our common prayer as you suggest! "RESTORE OUR FORTUNES, O LORD, LIKE THE WATERCOURSES IN THE NEGEV!!!!!!" Pat Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:59:57 -0800To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgFrom: eliasaph at uniteourheart.comSubject: [Dialogue] Word for todayAll, The "Word" for today that am submitting for all, may I suggest to pray along these lines, (for it was an answer to prayer this morning) is Psalm 126:4:"Restore our fortunes O LORD, like the watercourses in the Negev."It is a perfect answer to our overall questing, to find our way home through the traditions, isms, religions, and isms of man... we need Divine Guidance to lead us, as ancient Israel was led through the wilderness of old.... the rest of the Psalm is appropriate too, ... this verse needs to be our common prayer, and we shall find the way for each one of us to return to and & / or turn to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Let's do it all, and see how God will answer us all in pointing us in the right directionindividually and collectively.StevePs. May I suggest that we all pray about and alongside "the Word for today" that we are submitting." It will speed our way, and be a testimony of God's Guidance for us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/6f09f2fe/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 12:21:14 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:21:14 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801041021p524f548en90c0fe306ad9931d@mail.gmail.com> I would like a little clarification on what I have heard. I have been told that it is offensive to most Jews for gentiles to keep the Sabbath. Doesthis mean that they just don't want non-Jews keeping it as they do? For instance, in saying the candle lighting blessing, we shouldn't say we were commanded to light the Sabbath lights, because we were not. (I'm not saying what I think, I'm just asking for clarification in what Judah thinks.) Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/67f3c699/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Jan 4 12:32:38 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:32:38 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Word for today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801041832.m04IWboY014176@mail116c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/c3e5e5a2/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 12:36:03 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:36:03 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Is Judah hiding the light? In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801031902t1076ed6fs86898c26b0320825@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CA1C877AA2773E-C60-43F@FWM-D27.sysops.aol.com> <1d04e0430801031902t1076ed6fs86898c26b0320825@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801041036j2fbf7cdcvd4daae01d7bb316@mail.gmail.com> I think the Hanukkah lighting in New Orleans was a wonderful example. No commercialization here, the latkes and dreidles were free. The few things that were being sold were priced very reasonably. The message was shared to anyone who wanted to listen and a parade for all to see. Kim On Jan 3, 2008 9:02 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > Hanoch, > If you are talking about an internet presence in particular, I think there > ARE some very good websites that provide light for those who are seeking > such as AISH.com , Chabod.com. I have used these sites extensively for > information about the message and activities of Judaism. Then of course > there are the patriots of Israel International Radio and the Temple > Institute bringing the message to the masses who are trying to wake up > Israel and the diaspora. I listen to these regularly. > > In regards to the Jewish community doing good works: I don't live near a > Jewish community, but I hear that they are very generous and do many > wonderful things to help others without beating the drums and drawing > attention to themselves...just doing mitsva. I would say that they are being > a light in many ways. I know a very nice Jew. His name is Hanoch and he > can't help but let his light shine in spite of his own struggles by using > kind words to share the love of his Abba. > > I would expect many Jews to be rather reticent with regards to promoting > themselves and Judaism considering the persecution that many have endured > from their supposed brothers in within the Christian world. I can't blame > them. > > Hanoch, you made a reference to Shmuley Boteach in your post. I think > someone recently posted one of his articles regarding the positive > influences of the Shabbat. I totally agree with him. If more Jews, and > gentiles who love Hashem, would open their homes with hospitality as our > father Abraham, and welcome in others who have never had the experience of > the sabbath, then the light of Hashem would shine very brightly indeed. As > your gentile brothers, when we share the shabbat (as we are preparing even > tonight to do) with some new outsiders tomorrow night, we also bless you as > his chosen people and Hashem by declaring Him to be our One and Only G-d, > creator of heaven and earth, our provider, sustainer and salvation. We also > remind ourselves weekly that we are not God and that we live in total > dependence upon the One who made us and has blessed us with all that we > enjoy. This then is reflected throughout the week by hearts of gratitude > that spill over to all that we rub shoulders with in our neighborhoods, the > workplace, the community and most of all, our families. > > But, like everything else we do on a repetitive basis, it can become > routine, boring and just done dutifully. If the Jews are to revive and > rekindle the light of Hashem, they need to see the blessing of the shabbat, > not done in legalism, but as Yeshua taught it. He ate and drank with > sinners. Take that thought and continue the dialogue. How can the Jew bring > the sinner (what ever that means to you as a Jew; possibly simply one who is > not torah observant and ignorant) and show him the blessedness of the > Shabbat. A neighbor, or a co-worker maybe that asks you about what you are > doing for the weekend would be the most likely candidate. As gentiles, that > is OUR most effective tool to lead people into the truths of torah and > obedience. It not that we have arrived, but we let them come into our home > and see us, warts and all, enjoying our growing walk with G-d. They see the > joy, experience the tangible love that we share and that llight changes > lives. > > You are a good man to even ask the question, Hanoch. It shows your true > heart. > > Love ya man! > > Shabbat Shalom, > Denny > > P.S. We have 11 coming to our shabbat tomorrow. After dinner we will be > watching a video by Rob Bell on his citywide "Everything is Spiritual" > lecture tour, where he teaches in a most unusual way, from Genisis, God's > unique plan of Shabbat. It is really incredible. > > http://shop.everythingisspiritual.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/c3b9ba41/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 4 12:38:32 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:38:32 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Is Judah hiding the light? Message-ID: Hi Kim - That's a great example - thanks for sharing it! Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/f0cb5fb0/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 4 13:15:06 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 14:15:06 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews Message-ID: Hey Kim - Now, in terms of your question, you raise a very important issue. Is there an obligation (as from a mitzvah - a commandment, either positive or negative) to say the Brachot (blessings) as though HaShem commanded you to light the Shabbat candles? Hmmmm.....this is both a tough one, and an easy one at the same time! Firstly, if you want to know what the typical "Orthodox" Rabbis (of which I am certainly NOT) would tell you - they would say 'no.' The typical advise even to someone undergoing conversion to Judaism is that they 'keep' Shabbat, but do one thing (this is starting to sound bizarre, right?) that would go against Jewish law (the laws of Shabbat). If you want a more detailed explanation, please write me directly. If it were me, (this is where I step into DEEP 'yogurt' with the Rabbis), I would say it with a Bracha if I believed I were descended from the 10 Northern Tribes - Ephraim. It's only in our generation that people are feeling driven to even DO this....so, I say, 'DO IT!' But Kim - remember also to focus on small steps - lighting candles (with the blessing), Kiddush (sanctification over wine or grape juice), the family meal, 'special' time with children. Don't be so worried about what some Jewish people think....Much of "Judah" in this country have never lit candles for Shabbat with, or without a blessing. My own brother has never consciously done a Mitzvah in his whole life.... Kim, you are part of a unique group, of people reaching out for 'Torah Faith' (I'm waiting for someone to come up with a catchier term...), who do NOT come from a Jewish background. It's time for us all to break some fresh ground, don't you think? Together....it starts with this Dialogue, and it will move forward from here.....but it WILL be 'together.' On another note: how are you today? Smile...I hear it's great therapy...I've even trying it myself! :-) :-) With wishes for a loving, restorative, restful Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/4bef7eb2/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 4 13:38:18 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 14:38:18 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Betty - "Joseph Weeps" Message-ID: Dear Betty & friends, I had the chance to reread your lovely piece on Yosef (Joseph) weeping, and to be honest with you - I hadn't realized how many times he did! So thanks for that insight, right from the beginning. Now, you bring up the contrast between the 'staid' (my word), reserved, Synagogue service vs the enthusiastic, joyful Christian prayers services, particularly certain denominations which are REALLY jumping around! And whether I like it or not - as a general rule you are right... unfortunately. Now, there have been more and more shuls (the Yiddish term for synagogue [which is a Greek term]) that do 'outreach' and actually are friendly to strangers walking in (I just experienced it myself....and people always take me for an 'outsider' - wherever I am..). Also the Carlebach phenomenon (Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach was the greatest of the modern Jewish singers/composers etc - it's worth it to look him up on Wikipedia), with prayer services that are filled with singing and dancing. And, the youth movement services in Israel, too. But, as a general rule, you're right. What I do not, however agree with (respectfully!) is that 'Ephraim" has it in their DNA to be more emotional. If that's the case - then I'm on the wrong side of the fence - and I'm more likely to be an 'Ephramite.' I am a very passionate, emotional person ('hyperemotional'), and readily find myself crying at times when most guys wouldn't. Like? Whenever I watch the movie 'Ghost' and see Demi Moore and the spirit of Patrick Swayze; I used to cry everytime I watched the "Beauty & the Beast" video, everytime the 'beast' was stabbed to death - even though in 5 seconds - he was back as the Prince, alive, well and then living, happily every after....I finally stopped watching it (my girls grew out of it, so to speak). I cry at what people call "chick flicks." It's embarrassing... (he said while blushing...) Don't even get me started with Youtube videos from Israel...And now that I wear glasses, I have to remember to take them off before I wipe my eyes! I'm not sure if 'Judah' is 'colder' - or it's a sociological component of being the perpetual outsider. I'll think about that part during Shabbat, okay? And maybe right more on Saturday night. Who knows? When I'm giving you a big hug in Charlotte, we can talk about it then, okay? :-) Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah :-) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/5a181d3c/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jan 4 14:13:23 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:13:23 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Message-ID: As James commented this entire birth of Yeshua is fraught with difficulties. James has sent forth his own investigation and his thoughts I take serious. But even so my own thoughts run somewhat differently which of course does not make me right and James wrong, nor visa versa. But for the sake of discussion and to set forth my own opinions to be taken as no more than that, it just doesn't register for me that Yeshua to be taken seriously by some Jews at the time, that he was illegitimate, nor that he was adopted by Joseph. At one time I just read over the genealogies and paid little attention. But since, I have discovered just how important those genealogies really are. Now this is just me, if Yeshua was not the biological son of Joseph and Mary - then he was not the one, and I'm looking for another, right along with most Jews still awaiting the messiah son of David. The Muslims as far as I know take Ishmael as the promised seed of Abraham. And if blood-line from Abraham to Yeshua can make Yeshua the messiah by adoption, then the Muslims have a legal winnable case. Now, I'm being very technical here but let me explain why I say this. We have to go back to the time of Abraham and Sarah. Sarah owned a slave named Hagar and she belonged to Sarah and she could use her as she willed. It seems that Sarah grew impatient and since she was unable to bare, her slave girl could bare a son for her. Abraham agreed. Sarah's slave belonged to her and by right so would a son born by Abraham through her. Although the son would not come from Sarah's womb it would still be her son by adoption. However, God stepped in and said no Sarah, you will bare a son. Now fast forward to late second temple and think about what God said to Sarah about her notion of adoption. For me then the only thing that works is Yeshua must be of the blood-line of Abraham and that is in the sperm of the male, DNA counts, and must come from the seed of the woman - a daughter of Sarah even through a long way down the seed of seeds linage. Now I only present this for consideration and absolutely not for argumentation. Any one have a comment Clyde **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/3b16456e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "mhyde" Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:06:03 -0500 Size: 6291 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/3b16456e/attachment.mht From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jan 4 14:24:05 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:24:05 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Subject: The True Followers of Jesus Message-ID: I have removed author - but the thoughts need to be shared. Clyde Subject: The True Followers of Jesus The True Followers of Jesus Who Are They? You wouldn't believe it ! But I shall prove it to you scroll down please... They are called JEWS Jesus said: Turn the other cheek Who does this? Only Jews do this. Down through the centuries of Christian persecution of the Jews by those who were supposed to turn the other cheek ....the Jew actually did this While the Evangelical Christian Bush subdivides Israel demanding Jews to give up land for "peace" The Jew turns the other cheek over and over again for the one commodity he prays for daily "peace" and all he gets is more Katusha rockets over Ashkelon (today) While Christians believe on Jesus Jews do not believe on Jesus Jews follow Jesus Christians do not follow Jesus Jesus said To keep all the Mizvot Again it is only Jews that follow Jesus and you shall be great in the Kingdom Keeping all of the Mitzvot While of Heaven (Matt 5:17-19) Christians eat pig, shrimp, lobster, and even blood sausage. Jesus said: Follow the scribes and the Jews follow Jesus once again and do Pharisees for they sit on Moses seat attempt to follow the instructions of (Matthew 23) Scribes and the Pharisees Though Jews follow Jesus to the letter Yet Christians say that these same Jews are all bound for hell. Tell me does this make any sense to you???? Doesn't it seem that the wrong people are going to hell according to Jesus Hmmmm! Something to think about. ____________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008 11:29 **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/3c9f9838/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jan 4 14:34:55 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:34:55 EST Subject: Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Message-ID: As James commented this entire birth of Yeshua is fraught with difficulties. James has sent forth his own investigation and his thoughts I take serious. But even so my own thoughts run somewhat differently which of course does not make me right and James wrong, nor visa versa. But for the sake of discussion and to set forth my own opinions to be taken as no more than that, it just doesn't register for me that Yeshua to be taken seriously by some Jews at the time, that he was illegitimate, nor that he was adopted by Joseph. At one time I just read over the genealogies and paid little attention. But since, I have discovered just how important those genealogies really are. Now this is just me, if Yeshua was not the biological son of Joseph and Mary - then he was not the one, and I'm looking for another, right along with most Jews still awaiting the messiah son of David. The Muslims as far as I know take Ishmael as the promised seed of Abraham. And if blood-line from Abraham to Yeshua can make Yeshua the messiah by adoption, then the Muslims have a legal winnable case. Now, I'm being very technical here but let me explain why I say this. We have to go back to the time of Abraham and Sarah. Sarah owned a slave named Hagar and she belonged to Sarah and she could use her as she willed. It seems that Sarah grew impatient and since she was unable to bare, her slave girl could bare a son for her. Abraham agreed. Sarah's slave belonged to her and by right so would a son born by Abraham through her. Although the son would not come from Sarah's womb it would still be her son by adoption. However, God stepped in and said no Sarah, you will bare a son. Now fast forward to late second temple and think about what God said to Sarah about her notion of adoption. For me then the only thing that works is Yeshua must be of the blood-line of Abraham and that is in the sperm of the male, DNA counts, and must come from the seed of the woman - a daughter of Sarah even through a long way down the seed of seeds linage. Now I only present this for consideration and absolutely not for argumentation. Any one have a comment Clyde **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/5a73a3a5/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 14:39:45 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 14:39:45 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801041239x4739f3c8y549df3dc4b0fb867@mail.gmail.com> I do believe myself to be part of the tribes. I also believe in following my heart as far as lighting the candles, the Shabbat meal, etc. in my own home regardless of what Judah thinks. I just don't want to be offensive in their homes or in their synagogue. I'm considering going to a Conservative or Orthodox synagogue in New Orleans. While I enjoy listening to Ross and the fellowship of the Synagogue Without Walls, it is difficult for me to do this at home with all the distractions. I'm going to start listening at night when little one is in bed. One, if not both, of the synagogues have childcare/classes during the services. Kim On Jan 4, 2008 1:15 PM, wrote: > Hey Kim - > > Now, in terms of your question, you raise a very important issue. Is > there an *obligation *(as from a mitzvah - a commandment, either positive > or negative) to say the Brachot (blessings) as though HaShem *commanded *you > to light the Shabbat candles? Hmmmm.....this is both a tough one, and an > easy one at the same time! > > Firstly, if you want to know what the typical "Orthodox" Rabbis (of > which I am certainly NOT) would tell you - they would say 'no.' The typical > advise even to someone undergoing conversion to Judaism is that they 'keep' > Shabbat, but do one thing (this is starting to sound bizarre, right?) that > would go against Jewish law (the laws of Shabbat). If you want a more > detailed explanation, please write me directly. > > If it were *me, *(this is where I step into DEEP 'yogurt' with the > Rabbis), I *would *say it with a Bracha if I believed I were descended > from the 10 Northern Tribes - Ephraim. It's only in our generation that > people are feeling driven to even DO this....so, I say, 'DO IT!' > > But Kim - remember also to focus on small steps - lighting candles > (with the blessing), Kiddush (sanctification over wine or grape juice), the > family meal, 'special' time with children. Don't be so worried about what > some Jewish people think....Much of "Judah" in this country have never lit > candles for Shabbat with, or without a blessing. My own brother has never > consciously done a Mitzvah in his whole life.... > > Kim, you are part of a unique group, of people reaching out for 'Torah > Faith' (I'm waiting for someone to come up with a catchier term...), who do > NOT come from a Jewish background. It's time for us all to break some fresh > ground, don't you think? Together....it starts with this Dialogue, and it > will move forward from here.....but it WILL be 'together.' > > On another note: how are you today? Smile...I hear it's great > therapy...I've even trying it myself! :-) :-) > > With wishes for a loving, restorative, restful Shabbat Shalom, > Hanoch > > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/ffd55659/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 4 14:53:26 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:53:26 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews Message-ID: Dear Kim, I don't believe you have a single bone in your body that ANYONE would take offense to! Having said that - are you anywhere near Rabbi Uri Topolosky's (sp?) shul (synagogue) - he's an amazing guy, and is somewhere in New Orleans. Good luck - and make sure to tell us all how it works out - I am excited for you, and you have my prayers, yes....all those 'good vibes' too! Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/17a3cb94/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 15:06:50 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:06:50 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801041306i70ef6597v7856ee87c79001be@mail.gmail.com> Dear Hanoch, Don't know, I'll look for him. Thanks for letting me know about him. Okay, quick google search and I found him. He's at congregation Beth Israel. He was featured on belief.net. I even think I have read the article about him before. Moved here from New York to help rebuild the congregation after Katrina. Is this the same guy? A friend of mine told me that her teenage daughter wakes up every morning and reminds herself to put on a smile before getting out of bed. Pretty good advice. :) Shabbat Shalom, Kim On Jan 4, 2008 2:53 PM, wrote: > Dear Kim, > > I don't believe you have a single bone in your body that ANYONE would > take offense to! Having said that - are you anywhere near Rabbi Uri > Topolosky's (sp?) shul (synagogue) - he's an amazing guy, and is somewhere > in New Orleans. > > Good luck - and make sure to tell us all how it works out - I am > excited for you, and you have my prayers, yes....all those 'good vibes' too! > > Shabbat Shalom, > Hanoch > > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/0e61c064/attachment.html From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 4 16:29:23 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 22:29:23 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Message-ID: <010420082229.28994.477EB3430002DCC00000714222243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> I guess my next question would be is what is the definition of "Virgin" in the Hebrew language? Could it be that they were both pure of heart instead of pure of body? I'm trying to understand where the "Virgin Birth" came into play and why the original authors of scripture felt it was so important to stress that. I'm sure the annointment of the Holy Spriit was on Yeshua but the validity of a Virgin Birth is escaping me. Yes, absolutely, with Joseph as the father he would more than qualify, though some point out the "curse" upon the lineage coming down from Solomon through Jeconiah. There is no prophecy of the messiah being born "of a virgin," i.e., without a father, Isa 7 notwithstanding, as you know if you read it in context. Most scholars do indeed believe that Jesus' father was Joseph. I mention the "illegitimacy" idea because of the reasons I discuss in my book, but this view, among historians at least, is a minority opiniion. Best, James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/2a883eee/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 16:40:12 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:40:12 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch's PR, Steve's letter, and Vickie's Fish Dream! Message-ID: AMAZING!!!!! Steve and Hanoch, this is truly wonderful! I've been reading emails since early this morning. It is now after 5 PM, and I've just gotten to this one. I see Hanoch's PR, and Steve's reply. There are tears in my eyes as I type this. Hanoch, I'm so happy for you. And Steve, you are so on the mark with all you've said. I can hardly believe all that has happened in just one short week! (I should go away more often!) I can hardly wait to read what has happened with Dave. Steve mentions that his guess is "it is happening to Dave as well.." How marvelous is our God!!!! I'm so thankful that the TIME is upon us. We are so blessed to be alive at this time in history. It makes me think of a song I've heard my little grandson sing: "These are the days of Elijah, the prophet....." THESE TRULY ARE THE DAYS OF ELIJAH! It IS beginning!!!! Baruch HaShem!!!!!!!! Earlier in the day, I read about our new member to the ROF Dialogue, Vickie's, Fish Dream. Thank you, Vickie, for sharing, and I'm so happy you have joined us. Although I have no interpretation of your dream, I have a "fish dream" to add to yours. In 1994 I saw a mountain, and upon it were level spots at regular intervals all the way up and all the way down the sides of the mountain. Upon each level spot was a big bear with a fish in its mouth. There was also a bear with a fish in its mouth on the pinnacle of the mountain. That's all there was, but it was extremely vivid, and I knew it was a spiritual dream. My love to all, and Shabbat Shalom, Pat Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 00:55:03 -0800To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgFrom: eliasaph at uniteourheart.comSubject: Re: [Dialogue] 33 candles and new thoughts commentaryHanoch, Baruch HaShem! Baruch HaShem!! Baruch Hashem !!! It is happening, and it is happening to us and to you Hanoch, personally!! ... and my guess it is happening to Dave as well, and who knows how many others of us also..... You have PERSONALLY received a verifying message from HasShem that the work you are involved in and are indeed called to, is the work of Eli-Yah, (Mal. 3:24), the regathering of the tribes of Israel. The Scripture reference coming to you, "out of the Blue" is pretty self-explanatory, it is self-interpreting. I can only add some commentary to put it in immediate context as I see it. Overall, I see your calling and your "personal revelation" that you received (that I usually refer to as a "PR"), as an answer to your prayers and to the prayers of many, and a promise of HaShem as well as what Moshe wished, that all in Israel would become as Eldad and Medad, receiving Divine Inspiration and Divine Directives. Eventually this will happen to all as prophesied in Joel. For now, I see it as imperative for all of us, to have the Divine guidance among us, as we pioneers begin to blaze a trail and make our ways homeward, in the wilderness / midbar of the nations and the religions and isms of the world. New Age people are calling this time we are in, as "the time of quickening." Though I am not a New Ager, I think the term fits perfectly. It is a time of "quickening of the (symbolically) dead (asleep) souls of Israel, as pictured by Ezekiel 37. True, there are small bands of us around the world, here and there a few, never the less, we are the pioneers of the "first contingent to arise from the Valley of Dry Bones."... and we have a job to do..... The fact that you have reread 33 Candles, is a Divine prompter of circumstances, that set you up for the PR to be received in the middle of the night. It comes on the heels of your reading 33 Candles, which is about the beginning of the beginning of the "quickening," (in this neck of the woods), and your PR. is an affirmation that you are a continuation of it. The fact that you were awakened in the middle of the night is one of the signs and markers of this type of phenomena, that signifies the communication to be of major importance TO YOU, and by extension to all of us, who are all involved in the same work of HaShem, the Work of Eli-Yah. This work of God is about the restoration of the wayward children of Israel at the end of days to the content (and Divine connection) of the "heart of the fathers." In other words, the "healing" of the split heart of Israel, is underway... and you and all of us are in that process. Your PR is a Divinely-given sign of it. "Healing" is the word, because though the bones stand on their feet, once the graves are opened, they are like zombies, and figuratively say "our hope is gone." Though they come to their "identity knowledge," to be really connected to HaShem, they need to be fully conscious, in the heart, via a full soul-connection that is viable and active, and connects them to the vital conduit of true life, that which comes from the Ruach/ Divine breath that will animate us to be truly spiritually alive, just as Adam was made a living nefesh when he received the Divine breath to be "alive." On a small personal note to be continued under another thread called "PRs and Prayer Research" I will say more about it. Suffice it to say, that by God's grace, I only recognize these PRs, since I have been also given a great number of them starting in the early 90s.... and all of them had to do with the regathering of the Ten Tribes. Hanoch, this is a continuation of those Divinely-given notifications of what we are in, what our calling is, and what we are to do in this vein. It seems to that if this is happening to Hanoch and Dave as well, then we are to listen to the aggregate multiple messages for they testify of a Divine imprimatur and verifies our enlistment in this "first contingent." As such, it seems that we are to ask for more of it earnestly, that the Divine Guidance be restored to more of us to a greater degree. Baruch ata HaShem, Elokenu Melech ha-olam, shecheyanu, v'kivyemanu, v'hegeeanu, lazman hazeh! Praised be Thou O Lord, king of the Universe, Who has kept us alive, and sustained us, and enabled us to reach [and enjoy] this day!StevePS. I "felt" that when James let us know about Kislev 24, it was also the time this year that from then on, you in particular, and all of us as well, would be blessed. Looks, like it came true. This is IT! 'Consider yourself one of us!" You are in the army now!At 05:34 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, This past Shabbat, I decided to reread 33 Candles - although more slowly and carefully then I had done previously. And I have to say that James was right - I am finding it very, very profound. One thing I am truly envious of, is that David received messages from HaShem (the dates) and even felt HIS presence. I have begged and pleaded with HaShem for guidance, for a message, a 'sign,' for direction....and I have not been blessed to have any of that. Until last night.....I got up briefly during the night, and Yechezkel/Ezekiel 37:11 popped into my head. Now, I do not know the Tanach by 'Chapter & Verse,' so I didn't know what it was until this morning. Using the JPS translation of Ezekiel 37:11-14, here's what it says: And He said to me, "O mortal, these bones are the whole House of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up, our hope is gone; we are doomed. Prophesy, therefore, and say to them: This said the L-rd G-d: I am going to open your graves and lift you our of the graves, O My people. and bring you to the land of Israel, You shall know, O My people that I am the L-rd, when I have opened your graves and lifted you out of your graves. I will put My breath into you and you shall live again, and I will set you upon your soil. Then you shall know that I the L-rd have spoken and have acted" - declares the L-rd. Okay Steve, my favorite dream interpreter, and anyone else - what does this mean TO ME? I hope to be back on line by this evening....until then - take care! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/d1299da2/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 17:11:17 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 18:11:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] James and Ross - Hebrew words, phrases and quotes Message-ID: Thank you so much, James and Ross, for the Hebrew words, phrases and Biblical quotes that each of you sent this past week. I appreciate so much receiving these lists, and look forward to many happy hours of study. Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/9fc7ee6f/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Jan 4 17:28:14 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:28:14 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801041239x4739f3c8y549df3dc4b0fb867@mail.gmail.co m> References: <1c8dbb6e0801041239x4739f3c8y549df3dc4b0fb867@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200801042328.m04NSEnw026685@mail2525.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/c3497b90/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 4 17:56:32 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 23:56:32 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews Message-ID: <010420082356.8522.477EC7B000023A330000214A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> ... and we must not forget that YHVH established Shabbat before He gave The Torah to Moshe and the People... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/6c8b2269/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Jan 4 18:36:06 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:36:06 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews addenda Message-ID: <200801050036.m050a6rJ018119@mail116c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/cbc5c75f/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Jan 4 18:38:40 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:38:40 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews In-Reply-To: <010420082356.8522.477EC7B000023A330000214A22216128369B0A02 D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <010420082356.8522.477EC7B000023A330000214A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: <200801050038.m050cbSa012883@mail2536.carrierzone.com> At 03:56 PM 1/4/2008, you wrote: >... and we must not forget that YHVH established Shabbat before He >gave The Torah to Moshe and the People... and... if I recall correctly, "Shabbat was made for man... not man for the Shabbat"... From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 4 18:55:39 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 00:55:39 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews Message-ID: <010520080055.22703.477ED58B0008DCA5000058AF22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> I do believe that you are correct, for Rabbi Yeshua was reported to have said that. It stands to reason, as Exodus 20:8-11 seems to corroborate that -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/ea523686/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Jan 4 21:05:33 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 21:05:33 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation! In-Reply-To: <200801050036.m050a6rJ018119@mail116c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <00e401c84f47$d647a130$643c66c9@bettygivin> Steve, I just got off the phone with Kim. She is going to be off line for a few days and I wanted to read her the PR verses that you received for her, since I knew she would be unable to check email for several days. She was very thankful and appreciative, as they seemed so fitting to her situation. And she received what I would call a confirmation even before I called and read them to her! I read her both verses, Psa 142:7 and 147:2. I actually continued read the next few verses because I was not sure if the reference you gave was in the Hebrew version or not, and I wanted to make sure that she received the correct message. I used the Hebrew Bible. I first read Psa 142:7ff v.7 Attend to my cry for I am brought very low; deliver me from my persecutors; for they are stronger than v. 8 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may give thanks to thy name: the righteous shall crown themselves in me; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me. Then I read Psa 147:2ff v..2 The L-rd builds Yerushalayim; he gathers together the outcast of Yisrae'el. v.3. He heals the brokenhearted; and binds up their wounds. v. 4 "He counts the number of STARS; he CALLS THEM BY NAME. And after I read these verses, I told her that my understanding was that the same G-d who counts the number of stars and calls them by name is the same G-d who heals the brokenhearted and is going to deliver her from prison and deal bountifully with her! She then told me that just a short time before I called, that she and her husband had seen a SHOOTING STAR as they were driving down the road.that it came right in front of them! She was amazed and took this as a confirmation of these promises for her. Thank-you, Steve, for opening your heart up to Hashem to receive and for sharing with Kim. This meant so very much to her! Shabbat Shalom, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 6:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews addenda Kim, When I received the PR of 142:7, I could not resolve whether it was 142:7 or 147:2. Now I am sure that both apply, since on rereading your letter, you say that you think you are of "part of the tribes." Now I see that the PRs are confirming your situation and one is a prayer for your deliverance. . "God is waking us, Who will harken in the time to come?".... when our warfare-related "sentence" (Heb. "tzava" the sentence of being a prisoner of war that started with the defeat and captivity of the Northern Kingdom of Israel) will be up. (Isa. 42:23). This is an "appointed time," "Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion, for the time to favor her, yea the set time (Heb. moed) is come." (Psalm 102:13).See also Isa. 14;17, 42:22-23, 42:7, 40:2 Gang, perhaps, we are seeing a " new wave' God is working in waking His people.... I think so... let us offer sacrifices with our lips, on behalf of all of us, this Shabbat, (Hos. 14:2). He said He will dwell in the praises of Israel, let us so build the Mishkan of Prayers.... it is a sacred labor we con do on the Shabbat... Steve ********************************************************************** Dear Kim and all Returnees and Those Coming Near, Shabbat Shalom you-all, far and wide, I want to second Hanoch's recommendations re keeping the Shabbat. If you are in any of the above greeted groups, you are in /or will be pulled to "Torah faith," what we may call, not Judaism, not Christianity, or any other ism, but "The Way" of God, that He has prophesied via all the Prophets that we will be seeking. These "straight paths" [of the Torah] are prophesied to be restored to us; e.g. Isa. 40:3, Jer. 31:9, Mal. 3:1, and the Shabbat is certainly a major part of it. It is commanded in the OT, and we see it kept in the NT. I could just stop there and say "period." If you are pulled in that direction, you certainly should keep the Shabbat regardless of what anyone says, "Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; [Torah] fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings." (Isa. 51:7). If you have the Torah in your heart, you are one of God's "disciples:" "Bind up the testimony, seal the instruction / [Torah] among My disciples." --(Isa. 8:16). It will be kept in "the great Shabbat to come," after all it is a picture of that Messianic period. Here is a prayer [PR] I received about you: "Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me". --( Psalm 142:7). (You may also want o look up 147:2). May you be imbued with a special blessing for this Shabbat, and from now on. May you be guided by God's holy Spirit, and may you and your house come into Shabbat Shalom. Welcome to the congregation of the faithful, Steve At 12:39 PM 1/4/2008, you wrote: I do believe myself to be part of the tribes. I also believe in following my heart as far as lighting the candles, the Shabbat meal, etc. in my own home regardless of what Judah thinks. I just don't want to be offensive in their homes or in their synagogue. I'm considering going to a Conservative or Orthodox synagogue in New Orleans. While I enjoy listening to Ross and the fellowship of the Synagogue Without Walls, it is difficult for me to do this at home with all the distractions. I'm going to start listening at night when little one is in bed. One, if not both, of the synagogues have childcare/classes during the services. Kim On Jan 4, 2008 1:15 PM, wrote: Hey Kim - Now, in terms of your question, you raise a very important issue. Is there an obligation (as from a mitzvah - a commandment, either positive or negative) to say the Brachot (blessings) as though HaShem commanded you to light the Shabbat candles? Hmmmm.....this is both a tough one, and an easy one at the same time! Firstly, if you want to know what the typical "Orthodox" Rabbis (of which I am certainly NOT) would tell you - they would say 'no.' The typical advise even to someone undergoing conversion to Judaism is that they 'keep' Shabbat, but do one thing (this is starting to sound bizarre, right?) that would go against Jewish law (the laws of Shabbat). If you want a more detailed explanation, please write me directly. If it were me, (this is where I step into DEEP 'yogurt' with the Rabbis), I would say it with a Bracha if I believed I were descended from the 10 Northern Tribes - Ephraim. It's only in our generation that people are feeling driven to even DO this....so, I say, 'DO IT!' But Kim - remember also to focus on small steps - lighting candles (with the blessing), Kiddush (sanctification over wine or grape juice), the family meal, 'special' time with children. Don't be so worried about what some Jewish people think....Much of "Judah" in this country have never lit candles for Shabbat with, or without a blessing. My own brother has never consciously done a Mitzvah in his whole life.... Kim, you are part of a unique group, of people reaching out for 'Torah Faith' (I'm waiting for someone to come up with a catchier term...), who do NOT come from a Jewish background. It's time for us all to break some fresh ground, don't you think? Together....it starts with this Dialogue, and it will move forward from here.....but it WILL be 'together.' On another note: how are you today? Smile...I hear it's great therapy...I've even trying it myself! :-) :-) With wishes for a loving, restorative, restful Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/74dac297/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Fri Jan 4 21:46:10 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 22:46:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews In-Reply-To: <010420082356.8522.477EC7B000023A330000214A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> References: <010420082356.8522.477EC7B000023A330000214A22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: <009f01c84f4d$844d1760$0200a8c0@marvin> Interesting discussion... I refer back to what Rabbi Richmen taught a few weeks ago about the Sabbath and the gentiles. As I remember he said there is a seventh day which is for everyone and then the Sabbath with it's rules for the Jew(Israel). As far as being of the lost tribes... maybe we are... maybe we are not! Who knows? Only God(YHVH). Then their has been question's like what is keeping the Sabbath? How do you define work? If you have no set definitive rules for keeping the Sabbath then how would you know it you did not keep it? Although, the torah tells us to keep the Sabbath, it does not tell us how.. Does it? Then there is the Oral law? See why this is so interesting... just mention a subject and we come up with 100 questions... Shaloam _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 6:57 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews ... and we must not forget that YHVH established Shabbat before He gave The Torah to Moshe and the People... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/0fe30835/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Jan 4 21:52:14 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 21:52:14 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Friends with a Mutual Purpose In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00fa01c84f4e$5c07fd50$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thank-you, Ross, and Shabbat Shalom! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 11:30 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Friends with a Mutual Purpose Shalom all! I am off of work tomorrow for a much needed break. I hope to use the time for some study and relaxation getting ready for Saturday morning. I also intend to help around the house a bit. I am trying my best to keep up with all of the activity that this Dialogue is generating. It pleases me to read all of the notes and to find that this list is helping people feel connected. This is one thing that I feel has been missing for many who are searching for the "good way" among the ancient paths. That we have such ways for people to meet new friends and discuss topics that one encounters as they search for answers is quite incredible. I am now regularly receiving notes from people who are finding our weekly lessons helpful. Many of you that have joined this dialogue list have written both on and off the list that this is filling a void. Thanks to all of you for making this Dialogue useful. Our common goal should be to advance the Kingdom of God on earth. A major part of that is to teach the torah to the nations. Our differences are likely to exceed our common points, but "advancement" comes from working on mutual learning through open advocacy and authentic inquiry. I define these terms and give examples on my web site in the description about "the Dialogue". I hope to catch up on some correspondence between now and Tuesday. I feel that we are in many ways truly becoming a family here. I am humbled to be a part of such a group where people feel comfortable enough to share personal needs with others that they have not even met face to face. This is perfectly acceptable on this list. No one need apologize for this. Everyone needs friends. It is important for all of us to remember that the very first thing that God is NOT good is for man to be alone. We are "wired" for companionship by our Creator. It is a natural tendency to seek fellowship. I want to encourage all of you to make this list and the synagogue without walls a "place" of assembly where you can go to ask questions, ask for prayer, etc. There are drawbacks to this type of communication, but there is also something quite powerful and effective about the written word. Interpretation is always a challenge, but I want everyone to "assume" that the other person is being authentic and genuine first. When someone puts something "out there" for others to consider, carefully consider what has been presented before disagreeing. Often, we learn from those that may not see things the way that we see them. Try to understand where the person is coming from. Two decades ago I saw things differently than I do at this point. I seek to learn from every single exchange that I enter into, whether that be on this list or in face to face conversation. I have not always believed like this. Be patient with each other and remember the goal. Our mutual purpose should be to advance the kingdom of God on earth. Conversations that cause strife and contention never advance the goals of the Kingdom. I mentioned this the other day in a note, but want to repeat it here. It comes from the Sayings of the Fathers. "Any dispute that is for the sake of Heaven will have a constructive outcome; but one that is not for the sake of the Heaven will not have a constructive outcome." I carry around with me in my bag several things that have significance for me. One of those things is a copy of a sheet that a young David Horowitz typed on his computer. It outlines his core beliefs which form the basis of what UIWU stands for. It says: Aim - To study, learn, practice and preach original Biblical truths in all its simplicity without pomp, fanfare, tyranny, hypocrisy or fanaticism. This is more and more part of who I seek to become and what I seek to accomplish. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/14260b15/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 4 22:11:25 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 04:11:25 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Animal sacrifices for today? Message-ID: <010520080411.14033.477F036C000B995A000036D122230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> These are interesting theories. I know very well that there is an ongoing effort to rebuild the temple (Temple Institute) but I had not heard about building it here. The theory of the exodus sounds suspiciously like the Rapture to me. I believe there are many being drawn back to Torah and possibly Jerusalem right now, us among them, but I had not heard it put that way before. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Vickie Pilkerton : -------------- Your thoughts please.... There seems to be a lot of difference among Messianic believers. My question and concern is that I have run across some that say we should be rebuilding the temple now , here in the USA (not in Jerusalem) and offering animal sacrifices to usher in Yeshua's return. Another theory I have encountered is that within the next year or so there will be a great exodus from all over the earth to Jerusalem, and these are not just Jewish people who believe Yeshua is Messiah, but also Torah observant gentiles. Those that are a part of this exodus will be leaving at a moment's notice, leaving behind their homes, vehicles, families etc. All who remain will be tortured, murdered and beheaded because they are "Believers". Only those who made the exodus will be hid safely away by G-d Himself. Is there any scriptural basis for these beliefs/teachings? Blessings to all, Vickie Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/ce7af902/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 22:11:36 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 23:11:36 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation! In-Reply-To: <00e401c84f47$d647a130$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <200801050036.m050a6rJ018119@mail116c25.carrierzone.com> <00e401c84f47$d647a130$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: Betty, this is so exciting! HaShem's Ruach HaKodesh is moving among us! I'm thrilled for Kim, and Steve, and Hanoch, and Dave........for ALL of us, but even more so for the phenomenom we are blessed to behold. We must continue to pray Psalm 126:4, "Restore our fortunes, O LORD, like the watercourses in the Negev." And we must continue to encourage one another by sharing what He is doing. Thank you so much for passing on Kim's confirmation of the shooting star that passed right in front of them. All glory be to HaShem!!!!! Love, Pat From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 21:05:33 -0600Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation! Steve, I just got off the phone with Kim. She is going to be off line for a few days and I wanted to read her the PR verses that you received for her, since I knew she would be unable to check email for several days. She was very thankful and appreciative, as they seemed so fitting to her situation. And she received what I would call a confirmation even before I called and read them to her! I read her both verses, Psa 142:7 and 147:2. I actually continued read the next few verses because I was not sure if the reference you gave was in the Hebrew version or not, and I wanted to make sure that she received the correct message. I used the Hebrew Bible. I first read Psa 142:7ff v.7 Attend to my cry for I am brought very low; deliver me from my persecutors; for they are stronger than v. 8 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may give thanks to thy name: the righteous shall crown themselves in me; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me. Then I read Psa 147:2ff v..2 The L-rd builds Yerushalayim; he gathers together the outcast of Yisrae?el. v.3. He heals the brokenhearted; and binds up their wounds. v. 4 ?He counts the number of STARS; he CALLS THEM BY NAME. And after I read these verses, I told her that my understanding was that the same G-d who counts the number of stars and calls them by name is the same G-d who heals the brokenhearted and is going to deliver her from prison and deal bountifully with her! She then told me that just a short time before I called, that she and her husband had seen a SHOOTING STAR as they were driving down the road?that it came right in front of them! She was amazed and took this as a confirmation of these promises for her. Thank-you, Steve, for opening your heart up to Hashem to receive and for sharing with Kim. This meant so very much to her! Shabbat Shalom, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve MatheSent: Friday, January 04, 2008 6:36 PMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews addenda Kim, When I received the PR of 142:7, I could not resolve whether it was 142:7 or 147:2. Now I am sure that both apply, since on rereading your letter, you say that you think you are of "part of the tribes." Now I see that the PRs are confirming your situation and one is a prayer for your deliverance. ."God is waking us, Who will harken in the time to come?".... when our warfare-related "sentence" (Heb. "tzava" the sentence of being a prisoner of war that started with the defeat and captivity of the Northern Kingdom of Israel) will be up. (Isa. 42:23). This is an "appointed time," "Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion, for the time to favor her, yea the set time (Heb. moed) is come." (Psalm 102:13).See also Isa. 14;17, 42:22-23, 42:7, 40:2Gang, perhaps, we are seeing a " new wave' God is working in waking His people.... I think so... let us offer sacrifices with our lips, on behalf of all of us, this Shabbat, (Hos. 14:2). He said He will dwell in the praises of Israel, let us so build the Mishkan of Prayers.... it is a sacred labor we con do on the Shabbat... Steve **********************************************************************Dear Kim and all Returnees and Those Coming Near,Shabbat Shalom you-all, far and wide, I want to second Hanoch's recommendations re keeping the Shabbat. If you are in any of the above greeted groups, you are in /or will be pulled to "Torah faith," what we may call, not Judaism, not Christianity, or any other ism, but "The Way" of God, that He has prophesied via all the Prophets that we will be seeking. These "straight paths" [of the Torah] are prophesied to be restored to us; e.g. Isa. 40:3, Jer. 31:9, Mal. 3:1, and the Shabbat is certainly a major part of it. It is commanded in the OT, and we see it kept in the NT. I could just stop there and say "period." If you are pulled in that direction, you certainly should keep the Shabbat regardless of what anyone says, "Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; [Torah] fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings." (Isa. 51:7). If you have the Torah in your heart, you are one of God's "disciples:" "Bind up the testimony, seal the instruction / [Torah] among My disciples." --(Isa. 8:16).It will be kept in "the great Shabbat to come," after all it is a picture of that Messianic period. Here is a prayer [PR] I received about you: "Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me". --( Psalm 142:7). (You may also want o look up 147:2).May you be imbued with a special blessing for this Shabbat, and from now on. May you be guided by God's holy Spirit, and may you and your house come into Shabbat Shalom. Welcome to the congregation of the faithful, SteveAt 12:39 PM 1/4/2008, you wrote: I do believe myself to be part of the tribes. I also believe in following my heart as far as lighting the candles, the Shabbat meal, etc. in my own home regardless of what Judah thinks. I just don't want to be offensive in their homes or in their synagogue. I'm considering going to a Conservative or Orthodox synagogue in New Orleans. While I enjoy listening to Ross and the fellowship of the Synagogue Without Walls, it is difficult for me to do this at home with all the distractions. I'm going to start listening at night when little one is in bed. One, if not both, of the synagogues have childcare/classes during the services. KimOn Jan 4, 2008 1:15 PM, wrote: Hey Kim - Now, in terms of your question, you raise a very important issue. Is there an obligation (as from a mitzvah - a commandment, either positive or negative) to say the Brachot (blessings) as though HaShem commanded you to light the Shabbat candles? Hmmmm.....this is both a tough one, and an easy one at the same time! Firstly, if you want to know what the typical "Orthodox" Rabbis (of which I am certainly NOT) would tell you - they would say 'no.' The typical advise even to someone undergoing conversion to Judaism is that they 'keep' Shabbat, but do one thing (this is starting to sound bizarre, right?) that would go against Jewish law (the laws of Shabbat). If you want a more detailed explanation, please write me directly. If it were me, (this is where I step into DEEP 'yogurt' with the Rabbis), I would say it with a Bracha if I believed I were descended from the 10 Northern Tribes - Ephraim. It's only in our generation that people are feeling driven to even DO this....so, I say, 'DO IT!' But Kim - remember also to focus on small steps - lighting candles (with the blessing), Kiddush (sanctification over wine or grape juice), the family meal, 'special' time with children. Don't be so worried about what some Jewish people think....Much of "Judah" in this country have never lit candles for Shabbat with, or without a blessing. My own brother has never consciously done a Mitzvah in his whole life.... Kim, you are part of a unique group, of people reaching out for 'Torah Faith' (I'm waiting for someone to come up with a catchier term...), who do NOT come from a Jewish background. It's time for us all to break some fresh ground, don't you think? Together....it starts with this Dialogue, and it will move forward from here.....but it WILL be 'together.' On another note: how are you today? Smile...I hear it's great therapy...I've even trying it myself! :-) :-) With wishes for a loving, restorative, restful Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/64980cdd/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 4 23:08:04 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 05:08:04 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Is Judah hiding the light? Message-ID: <010520080508.1882.477F10B30008FA070000075A22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Hanoch, Yeah I kinda unthinkingly put one across the bow with that, sorry. What I was really responding to is the more fundamental tendency of those who call themselves "orthodox" to put themselves above what they consider "lay" people and withhold learning that they have no exclusive right to. I've seen it all my life in the Catholic and Baptist churches. I didn't mean to indict all of Judah and certainly not you, you have been most enlightening. No excuse other than that I have been a little distracted lately, I'll try to do better in the future. Shabbat Shalom brother. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, In a separate post, John mentioned that it would be helpful if Judah didn't 'hide the light.' I'm paraphrasing, so John, please forgive me if I'm misrepresenting what you wrote. But essentially, it leads to the concept of, since part of the responsibility of the Jewish people is to serve as a "Light to the Nations," why does that light seemed to be tucked away somewhere? A few years ago, I heard Rabbi Shmuley Boteach (author, and host of various talk shows) speak about that very issue - of presenting Torah, and Torah values 'out there' (cyberspace, the world, etc) into the 'marketplace of ideas,' which is what he called it. Well folks, it's a bit easier said then done. So, once again I'm going to throw a question out to you folks - How can we (the Jewish people) do a better job of communicating/teaching/sharing Torah with those seeking it? This is actually a different question then I asked the other week, so please think about it and let me know, okay? I'm hoping to utilize what you folks share with me in a presentation, likely an article, and possibly - even a book.... :-) I'm eagerly awaiting your responses... B'Ahavat Yisrael, Hanoch More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/31bbb8a0/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sat Jan 5 08:29:41 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 08:29:41 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] new creature Message-ID: <007601c84fa7$6945bd50$6700a8c0@davesbook> Announcing the birth of Grand baby number Six......(whose counting?) [:~)>...........Sherrys daughter Beth had Chloe @ 3am......what a day. pressed for time dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/9eae38ae/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sat Jan 5 09:38:09 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:38:09 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] new creature In-Reply-To: <007601c84fa7$6945bd50$6700a8c0@davesbook> References: <007601c84fa7$6945bd50$6700a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: CONGRATULATIONS, DAVE AND SHERRY!!! From: dhcole1 at cox.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 08:29:41 -0600Subject: [Dialogue] new creature Announcing the birth of Grand baby number Six......(whose counting?) [:~)>...........Sherrys daughter Beth had Chloe @ 3am......what a day. pressed for time dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/91f67717/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jan 5 13:06:25 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:06:25 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] new creature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <013101c84fce$11666680$643c66c9@bettygivin> Yes, Dave! Baruch Hashem! A Shabbat baby!!! Grandchildren are such a blessing. I am so happy for you and Sherry as well as for Sherry's daughter, Beth. May this little Chloe rise up and call her mother blessed! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:38 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] new creature CONGRATULATIONS, DAVE AND SHERRY!!! _____ From: dhcole1 at cox.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 08:29:41 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] new creature Announcing the birth of Grand baby number Six......(whose counting?) [:~)>...........Sherrys daughter Beth had Chloe @ 3am......what a day. pressed for time dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/866e8fbf/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jan 5 18:47:22 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 18:47:22 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Betty - "Joseph Weeps"& Rachael Weeping for her children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <016101c84ffd$b347da90$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thank-you, Hanoch, for your comments regarding the ideas put forth in this post. I did not take offense on your position that you do not think that it is the DNA from Joseph/Ephraim that is responsible for the emotional/psychological tendencies carried thru today amongst some of us who feel that we are of the lost tribes. That was merely an idea that crossed thru my mind and so I threw it out because it does seem to "fit," at least in part, in many ways. But there are definitely exceptions, and as I mentioned in my post, you are one of them. I think that those of us who know you know your sensitivity and that you have within you the "weeping response," which is generally not the case amongst those others of Judah. I don't know what the answer is to this complex issue; and Baruch Hashem, we don't have to know all the answers! Steve Mathe is his response also had some other interesting observations, sort of a "nature" vs "nurture" scenario. I realize from reading the Barachot of Jacob to his children at the end of Genesis and the Barachot of Moses to the heads of the tribes at the end of Deut, that each of the children and their respective tribes were given a blessing according to their individual personalities and make-up. I also wonder about the possibility that in these "last days" that the ones who are hearing the clarion call, and as a result are being drawn together might be the group(s) reflected in Isa. 56:8. These are the ones that are being "gathered to the [ones already] gathered," and as a result of becoming sensitive to the call of G-d upon their hearts, might perhaps reflect the psychological/emotional aspect of Joseph as he came into contact with his brothers and his father.not the earlier Joseph who perhaps had an air of superiority over his brothers because of his dreams, but the older, more mature Joseph, the broken Joseph who had learned to forgive and wanted to reach out to his brothers in love.in spite of what they had done to him. The brothers, fearful and guilt-ridden were perhaps too afraid to reach out to him. Could this be a model of what we all need to do today, including the ones of Judah who have been persecuted in all sorts of unspeakable ways, by some of Joseph, in the name of Christianity? If so, this would be a reversal of roles in a way.Judah forgiving Joseph. But when we say Judah, are we saying just Judah or are other tribes included as well? When the two sticks are joined, I think we usually miss the fact that it is not just Judah and Joseph, but Judah and his companions and Joseph and his companions. So could the ratio be not the usual 2 and 10 ratio, but perhaps 8 and 4? If this were the case, could we refer to the children of Rachael (Joseph and Benjamin) and those 2 of her concubine, Bilhah.( Dan and Naphtali) equaling 4 be "Joseph and his companions;" and the 6 children of Leah (Reuben, Simon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulon) plus those 2 of her concubine, Zilpah (Gad and Asher)? If that is the case and there is the possibility of an ancient psychological thread coupled with other spiritual, "soul governed" factors that Steve M. brought up, then Dan and Naphtali might also have some of the characteristics of Joseph because they were also classified as Rachel's children (Gen 29:6). So when we read of the gripping lament and bitter weeping in Jer 31:14 (which is in white spaces).of Rachel weeping for her children, "because they are no more," could she not also be weeping for Dan and Naphtali as well as for Joseph, (Ephraim and Manasseh), and little Benjamin. Who knows.just speculating.it even gets confusing to think about. The important thing in all of this in my opinion is that we in this group are in a small part symbolic of the "two sticks" that will be joined. And after that, the "whole earth will be full of the knowledge of G-d!" As Shabbat is sadly over, Shavuah tov! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com of Leah and her concubine, Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 1:38 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Betty - "Joseph Weeps" Dear Betty & friends, I had the chance to reread your lovely piece on Yosef (Joseph) weeping, and to be honest with you - I hadn't realized how many times he did! So thanks for that insight, right from the beginning. Now, you bring up the contrast between the 'staid' (my word), reserved, Synagogue service vs the enthusiastic, joyful Christian prayers services, particularly certain denominations which are REALLY jumping around! And whether I like it or not - as a general rule you are right... unfortunately. Now, there have been more and more shuls (the Yiddish term for synagogue [which is a Greek term]) that do 'outreach' and actually are friendly to strangers walking in (I just experienced it myself....and people always take me for an 'outsider' - wherever I am..). Also the Carlebach phenomenon (Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach was the greatest of the modern Jewish singers/composers etc - it's worth it to look him up on Wikipedia), with prayer services that are filled with singing and dancing. And, the youth movement services in Israel, too. But, as a general rule, you're right. What I do not, however agree with (respectfully!) is that 'Ephraim" has it in their DNA to be more emotional. If that's the case - then I'm on the wrong side of the fence - and I'm more likely to be an 'Ephramite.' I am a very passionate, emotional person ('hyperemotional'), and readily find myself crying at times when most guys wouldn't. Like? Whenever I watch the movie 'Ghost' and see Demi Moore and the spirit of Patrick Swayze; I used to cry everytime I watched the "Beauty & the Beast" video, everytime the 'beast' was stabbed to death - even though in 5 seconds - he was back as the Prince, alive, well and then living, happily every after....I finally stopped watching it (my girls grew out of it, so to speak). I cry at what people call "chick flicks." It's embarrassing... (he said while blushing...) Don't even get me started with Youtube videos from Israel...And now that I wear glasses, I have to remember to take them off before I wipe my eyes! I'm not sure if 'Judah' is 'colder' - or it's a sociological component of being the perpetual outsider. I'll think about that part during Shabbat, okay? And maybe right more on Saturday night. Who knows? When I'm giving you a big hug in Charlotte, we can talk about it then, okay? :-) Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah :-) _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/e68b4954/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Jan 5 19:00:55 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 20:00:55 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Is Judah hiding the light? Message-ID: Hey John - NO offense taken, it spurred me to both ask a question, and think about how best to teach Torah. Don't have the answer to that one yet, but you did NOTHING wrong. Take care pal, Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/ce99d334/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Jan 5 19:02:33 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 20:02:33 EST Subject: [Dialogue] new creature Message-ID: MAZAL TOV!!!!!!! Congratulations!! Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/9e220fb4/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sat Jan 5 19:13:12 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 17:13:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] new creature In-Reply-To: <007601c84fa7$6945bd50$6700a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <354422.7205.qm@web57105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Sherry and Dave, Congratulations to all of you.............what a sweet blessing a child is. Best wishes to your daughter, Beth, and her sweet baby, Chloe. Shalom, Tammy Dave Cole wrote: Announcing the birth of Grand baby number Six......(whose counting?) [:~)>...........Sherrys daughter Beth had Chloe @ 3am......what a day. pressed for time dave _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/a97bedc0/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 5 19:21:49 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 01:21:49 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Is Judah hiding the light? Message-ID: <010620080121.23637.47802D2D00037AA200005C5522230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Cool! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey John - NO offense taken, it spurred me to both ask a question, and think about how best to teach Torah. Don't have the answer to that one yet, but you did NOTHING wrong. Take care pal, Hanoch Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/f934b1f5/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Jan 5 19:22:27 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 20:22:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E5A04D0-65D1-4058-A3EC-79AF9F979CC8@earthlink.net> The problem I see here is that in Hebrew thought, women too "seed seed," see the Hebrew of Gen 3:15; Lev 12:2, etc. Also see Tal Ilan's work on this whole matter. Herod knew that a Hashmonean princess was just the thing he needed to try to bring a bit of "royalty" into his mixed background. Tal Ilan gives lots of other examples. Yeshua, definitely through his mother, and maybe through his father, was not only of Abraham, Judah, but also Davidic... It is interesting that Zechariah 10 picks up on the family of Nathan through David...not Solomon. This is the lost line, and the one represented in Luke 3. Best, James On Jan 4, 2008, at 3:13 PM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > As James commented this entire birth of Yeshua is fraught with > difficulties. James has sent forth his own investigation and his > thoughts I take serious. But even so my own thoughts run somewhat > differently which of course does not make me right and James wrong, > nor visa versa. But for the sake of discussion and to set forth my > own opinions to be taken as no more than that, it just doesn't > register for me that Yeshua to be taken seriously by some Jews at > the time, that he was illegitimate, nor that he was adopted by > Joseph. At one time I just read over the genealogies and paid little > attention. But since, I have discovered just how important those > genealogies really are. Now this is just me, if Yeshua was not the > biological son of Joseph and Mary - then he was not the one, and > I'm looking for another, right along with most Jews still awaiting > the messiah son of David. The Muslims as far as I know take Ishmael > as the promised seed of Abraham. And if blood-line from Abraham to > Yeshua can make Yeshua the messiah by adoption, then the Muslims > have a legal winnable case. > > Now, I'm being very technical here but let me explain why I say > this. We have to go back to the time of Abraham and Sarah. Sarah > owned a slave named Hagar and she belonged to Sarah and she could > use her as she willed. It seems that Sarah grew impatient and since > she was unable to bare, her slave girl could bare a son for her. > Abraham agreed. Sarah's slave belonged to her and by right so would > a son born by Abraham through her. Although the son would not come > from Sarah's womb it would still be her son by adoption. However, > God stepped in and said no Sarah, you will bare a son. Now fast > forward to late second temple and think about what God said to Sarah > about her notion of adoption. For me then the only thing that works > is Yeshua must be of the blood-line of Abraham and that is in the > sperm of the male, DNA counts, and must come from the seed of the > woman - a daughter of Sarah even through a long way down the seed of > seeds linage. Now I only present this for consideration and > absolutely not for argumentation. Any one have a comment > > Clyde > > > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > > From: "mhyde" > Date: January 4, 2008 12:06:03 PM EST > To: > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > James, > > Thanks for the reply. You pointed me in the direction, and like a > bird dog > on a pheasant, I will start searching. I understand the constraints > on your > time. I have always understood this. Publish when you can. > > marvin > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:25 AM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua > > Good and complex question Marvin and I have lots to say but just no > time...I will save it and try to get to it. But the short answer is > "no," based on God choosing often the "low" or "despised" and raising > it up, specifically regarding the "throne," see Ezekiel 21:25-27 in > particular. Also, contrary to common opinion the "royal" lineage could > pass via the mother/female. There has been a lot of work on this, much > of it by the Israeli scholar Tal Ilan... > > Rushing... > > James > > > On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:02 PM, mhyde wrote: > >> James, >> >> You said: "Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I >> take the >> >> pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam >> anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" >> the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," >> >> I agree with adoption and Yeshua legally being the son of Joseph, >> thus >> having the "Yeshua bar Yosef" title. But if the pregnancy out of >> wedlock is >> historical then would that not disqualify Yeshua from the throne of >> David? >> >> marvin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor >> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:13 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua >> >> Tammy, just a few comments that may or may not get at what you are >> thinking here... >> >> There were (and are today) numerous descendants of David, any one of >> which could potentially qualify as "David's seed," and thus became a >> candidate for anointing as king/messiah if chosen by God or anointed >> by the Prophet. I am of the view that the genealogy Matthew provides >> is that of Joseph, while Luke gives Mary's genealogy. Many scholars >> disagree but I find this convincing as you know from my book. It also >> means that the bloodline went from David through Nathan, not through >> Solomon. >> >> Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the >> pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam >> anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" >> the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," as we >> see >> in John 1:45 and elsewhere. >> >> I am not sure I am getting at all you are asking though so please >> clarify if need be. >> >> Take care, >> >> James >> >> >> On Jan 3, 2008, at 2:28 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: >> >>> I'm just curious since Yeshua was decended from two Davidic lines. >>> Would he not of technically been a King anyway? I'm asking this >>> because of the Ossuary that states. "Yeshua bar Yosef"" had Yosef >>> been his father? >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/4b868095/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jan 5 19:23:04 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 19:23:04 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Subject: The True Followers of Jesus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <018301c85002$b038ac80$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thank-you, Clyde.this is indeed something to think about! Shavua tov, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 2:24 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Subject: The True Followers of Jesus I have removed author - but the thoughts need to be shared. Clyde Subject: The True Followers of Jesus The True Followers of Jesus Who Are They? You wouldn't believe it ! But I shall prove it to you scroll down please... They are called JEWS Jesus said: Turn the other cheek Who does this? Only Jews do this. Down through the centuries of Christian persecution of the Jews by those who were supposed to turn the other cheek ....the Jew actually did this While the Evangelical Christian Bush subdivides Israel demanding Jews to give up land for "peace" The Jew turns the other cheek over and over again for the one commodity he prays for daily "peace" and all he gets is more Katusha rockets over Ashkelon (today) While Christians believe on Jesus Jews do not believe on Jesus Jews follow Jesus Christians do not follow Jesus Jesus said To keep all the Mizvot Again it is only Jews that follow Jesus and you shall be great in the Kingdom Keeping all of the Mitzvot While of Heaven (Matt 5:17-19) Christians eat pig, shrimp, lobster, and even blood sausage. Jesus said: Follow the scribes and the Jews follow Jesus once again and do Pharisees for they sit on Moses seat attempt to follow the instructions of (Matthew 23) Scribes and the Pharisees Though Jews follow Jesus to the letter Yet Christians say that these same Jews are all bound for hell. Tell me does this make any sense to you???? Doesn't it seem that the wrong people are going to hell according to Jesus Hmmmm! Something to think about. _____ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008 11:29 _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/ad47fbd0/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sat Jan 5 23:03:13 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 23:03:13 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews References: Message-ID: <00a701c85021$714b6b10$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Oh, Hanoch, I love you and want the best for you. You cursed yourself in this email in what you said about your brother. You can't say that about him because you are not in his skin........without receiving something "ill" back in return. Please repent. I don't want to see you harmed in any way....!!! I like you toooooo much. Love Leorah --- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews Hey Kim - Now, in terms of your question, you raise a very important issue. Is there an obligation (as from a mitzvah - a commandment, either positive or negative) to say the Brachot (blessings) as though HaShem commanded you to light the Shabbat candles? Hmmmm.....this is both a tough one, and an easy one at the same time! Firstly, if you want to know what the typical "Orthodox" Rabbis (of which I am certainly NOT) would tell you - they would say 'no.' The typical advise even to someone undergoing conversion to Judaism is that they 'keep' Shabbat, but do one thing (this is starting to sound bizarre, right?) that would go against Jewish law (the laws of Shabbat). If you want a more detailed explanation, please write me directly. If it were me, (this is where I step into DEEP 'yogurt' with the Rabbis), I would say it with a Bracha if I believed I were descended from the 10 Northern Tribes - Ephraim. It's only in our generation that people are feeling driven to even DO this....so, I say, 'DO IT!' But Kim - remember also to focus on small steps - lighting candles (with the blessing), Kiddush (sanctification over wine or grape juice), the family meal, 'special' time with children. Don't be so worried about what some Jewish people think....Much of "Judah" in this country have never lit candles for Shabbat with, or without a blessing. My own brother has never consciously done a Mitzvah in his whole life.... Kim, you are part of a unique group, of people reaching out for 'Torah Faith' (I'm waiting for someone to come up with a catchier term...), who do NOT come from a Jewish background. It's time for us all to break some fresh ground, don't you think? Together....it starts with this Dialogue, and it will move forward from here.....but it WILL be 'together.' On another note: how are you today? Smile...I hear it's great therapy...I've even trying it myself! :-) :-) With wishes for a loving, restorative, restful Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/a16bb96e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Jan 5 23:21:55 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 00:21:55 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews Message-ID: Dearest Leorah, I just used it as an example - but I take it all back if you (or anyone) it was a curse of any kind. I care TOO much for you......I would truly hate for something bad to happen to me - the last 12 months have already been, probably the worst year in my life, with the only exception of my mom's (Of Blessed Memory) death. So I repent, and take it back, truly... Keep writing - I love to hear from you!!! B'Ahavat Yisrael, Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/3f0a2c32/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sat Jan 5 23:27:13 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 23:27:13 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews References: Message-ID: <00dd01c85024$cb5e78b0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> You are forgiven dear one.!!!! Have a very blessed week. Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews Dearest Leorah, I just used it as an example - but I take it all back if you (or anyone) it was a curse of any kind. I care TOO much for you......I would truly hate for something bad to happen to me - the last 12 months have already been, probably the worst year in my life, with the only exception of my mom's (Of Blessed Memory) death. So I repent, and take it back, truly... Keep writing - I love to hear from you!!! B'Ahavat Yisrael, Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080105/d8c72177/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Jan 5 23:47:50 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 00:47:50 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Betty - "Joseph Weeps"& Rachael Weeping for her children Message-ID: Hey Betty - I'm really beginning to wonder if my crying and reaching out to 'Joseph' is part of the very first attempts to reconcile us all again. Hmmmm....Or am I just delusional, as usual? Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/e707a634/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 6 00:13:29 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 01:13:29 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Subject: The True Followers of Jesus Message-ID: Wow, Clyde....that has some really interesting implications.... Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/4fefef35/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 6 02:25:01 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 02:25:01 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Betty - "Joseph Weeps"& Rachael Weeping for herchildren In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003701c8503d$a1b5ea20$643c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, I do not think you are delusional; I think you are probably correct.there are countless passages in the prophets that speak of weeping in conjunction with the return.too tired tonight to recount them. In the end, I don't suppose it will matter what tribe we are from.we will all be joined to one another then. Shalom' Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 11:48 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Betty - "Joseph Weeps"& Rachael Weeping for herchildren Hey Betty - I'm really beginning to wonder if my crying and reaching out to 'Joseph' is part of the very first attempts to reconcile us all again. Hmmmm....Or am I just delusional, as usual? Hanoch _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/d056c225/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Jan 6 05:10:57 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 03:10:57 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation! In-Reply-To: References: <200801050036.m050a6rJ018119@mail116c25.carrierzone.com> <00e401c84f47$d647a130$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <200801061110.m06BAsHD020906@mail116c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/f15036be/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Jan 6 05:21:29 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 03:21:29 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation! In-Reply-To: <00e401c84f47$d647a130$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <200801050036.m050a6rJ018119@mail116c25.carrierzone.com> <00e401c84f47$d647a130$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <200801061121.m06BLQHO023031@mail116c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/9cdc2185/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 6 06:21:55 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 07:21:55 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Today's quote - Jan 6th Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Something to think about as we go through our day... Hanoch Trust yourself to Hashem, and wait patiently for Him; do not fret not over him who prospers in his way, because of the man who brings wicked devices to pass. Psalm 37:7 **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/d860fbce/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 6 07:07:46 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 08:07:46 EST Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the group: Hanoch Hosea 11:7-8 "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been kindled." Hosea 7:8-11 "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/b85d365e/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jan 6 07:30:43 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 08:30:43 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Message-ID: James, I do think you have opened up Luke's genealogy more so than any other explanation than I have been able to find. I'm wondering also if through the seed of the woman if after the time of David through Nathan there may have been a time when a uniting of Judah through a marriage with a daughter of Ephraim which in turn might qualify Yeshua with blood linage of both houses? I'm working with Noel Rude you may remember as a student back in the old WCG days. In any case in our study not yet complete, there seems a case can be made that the death of Yeshua fits far better as a son of Joseph son of Ephraim. For instance as far as Jacob as well as the brothers Joseph fugitively was dead, much like Isaac Abraham would have offered on the alter. Do you see a possibility that not only the seed of the woman Gen 3-15, then Nathan with bloodlines of both Judah and Ephraim coming through in Luke's genealogy? In other words, setting aside for the moment the difficult issue of the historical resurrection, I'm thinking of where it was said Yeshua must die for Judah, but not Judah only, but that God might gather all of his children, i.e. the house of Ephraim as one, i.e. as one house. This fits far better than a death as a son of David, and as well harmonizes with the two messianic roles as the Rabbinic sages have set forth. Also when he walked no longer with the Jews, and went to a town called Ephraim seems to add to the story as well. Any thoughts you might add will be most helpful. As you know from our private conversation this whole issue is a test case for me. Thanks Clyde **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/218a83ef/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 20:22:27 -0500 Size: 22791 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/218a83ef/attachment.mht From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jan 6 08:05:43 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:05:43 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Subject: The True Followers of Jesus Message-ID: Well, Hanoch, you may represent a coming together of the two houses as one, more-so than you realize. I think there must come a time an ensign is raised up where the greatest idol of the whole earth, i.e. the Greek Jesus Christ must be smashed to pieces so the whole world, might observe a fully human being, Jewish to the core, upholding a correct interpretation of the commandments of God, thereby confirming the eternal covenant that can be renewed as in Duet 28:69,Heb translation, but as long as there is a sun and moon can never be annulled. I will go out on a limb here, and suggest that idol may very well be that image of the beast that the seer saw in vision in Rev 13, that deceives the whole world. Let us make an image as it was said, and from one end of the earth to the other that image has been worshipped. But as the Jewish Yehsua him-self said - the Father is the only true God and we might add and Him alone must we worship. That's my take and I'm sticking to it. Take care Clyde. **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/688b3e44/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Subject: The True Followers of Jesus Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 01:13:29 EST Size: 4102 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/688b3e44/attachment.mht From shdennis at rogers.com Sun Jan 6 10:07:11 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen Dennis) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:07:11 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Subject: The True Followers of Jesus References: Message-ID: <002601c8507e$32a67410$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Yes Clyde ... i would agree with that. Shalom Stephen ----- Original Message ----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:05 AM Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Subject: The True Followers of Jesus Well, Hanoch, you may represent a coming together of the two houses as one, more-so than you realize. I think there must come a time an ensign is raised up where the greatest idol of the whole earth, i.e. the Greek Jesus Christ must be smashed to pieces so the whole world, might observe a fully human being, Jewish to the core, upholding a correct interpretation of the commandments of God, thereby confirming the eternal covenant that can be renewed as in Duet 28:69,Heb translation, but as long as there is a sun and moon can never be annulled. I will go out on a limb here, and suggest that idol may very well be that image of the beast that the seer saw in vision in Rev 13, that deceives the whole world. Let us make an image as it was said, and from one end of the earth to the other that image has been worshipped. But as the Jewish Yehsua him-self said - the Father is the only true God and we might add and Him alone must we worship. That's my take and I'm sticking to it. Take care Clyde. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/ee5e1d1f/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Sun Jan 6 10:51:12 2008 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:51:12 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F8C343B428F4062986669BDB78BC9DD@Akai> Shalom Hanoch, Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the group: Hanoch Hosea 11:7-8 "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been kindled." Hosea 7:8-11 "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/4b236898/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 6 11:10:33 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:10:33 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Message-ID: <010620081710.12660.47810B8900049B450000317422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Sherry, If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them very useful to those learning Hebrew. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" : -------------- Shalom Hanoch, Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the group: Hanoch Hosea 11:7-8 "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been kindled." Hosea 7:8-11 "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/9921a0dd/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 6 11:12:31 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:12:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: <3F8C343B428F4062986669BDB78BC9DD@Akai> References: <3F8C343B428F4062986669BDB78BC9DD@Akai> Message-ID: <8CA1E9E74BB9694-DD0-5981@FWM-D45.sysops.aol.com> Shalom Sherry - ??? It's not ignorance, don't be silly!? ArtScroll became one of the largest publishers of Jewish books (in translation) in the late 1970's.? They have made a HUGE impact on the Jewish community (They recently completed a translation of the entire Talmud - which took them close to 15 years to do), since now people can access texts in their native language (English), without learning Hebrew.? That's the good side; the less then good side is that they only quote very strict opinions, and only utilize certain traditional Jewish sources (for political or ideological reasons).? The other problem is, every translation is really an interpretation - (and MY interpretation may be different then YOURS, for instance) which is probably the single best reason we all have to learn Hebrew.? ?? I think their website is www.artscroll.com or something like that; if not do a 'google' on it.? If you're interested in more of my 'critique' of them, please ask - but this is really the basic story.? And Sherry, please don't ever hesitate to ask a question.? As the saying goes, the only stupid question, is the one people are afraid to ask! ???Brachot (blessings) right back at you!? Have a fabulous day! ??????????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: sherry cole To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:51 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Shalom Hanoch, Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, ? ??? Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.'? Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. ? ??? Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible.? Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea.? Not sure if it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the group: ??? ??? Hanoch ? Hosea 11:7-8 ??? "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above they call them; together they do not exalt [Him].? How can I give you over Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been kindled." ? Hosea 7:8-11 ??? "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which was not turned over.? Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know.? And the glory of Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this.? And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/059fcac5/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 6 11:18:28 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:18:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: <010620081710.12660.47810B8900049B450000317422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <010620081710.12660.47810B8900049B450000317422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <8CA1E9F49D6E510-DD0-59A1@FWM-D45.sysops.aol.com> Hey Sherry - ??? John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out of it!? Great job John!? Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born and bred, huh??? :-)? Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, later. ??? But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah faith movement?? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. ??? Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" ??????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Hey Sherry, ? If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in translations of Jewish literature like prayer books.? Joe uses them alot and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he has been reading.? Many of the publications are interlear which makes them very useful to those learning Hebrew. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" : -------------- Shalom Hanoch, Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, ? ??? Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.'? Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. ? ??? Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible.? Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea.? Not sure if it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the group: ??? ??? Hanoch ? Hosea 11:7-8 ??? "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above they call them; together they do not exalt [Him].? How can I give you over Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been kindled." ? Hosea 7:8-11 ??? "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which was not turned over.? Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know.? And the glory of Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this.? And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/1567269b/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 11:48:12 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:48:12 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews In-Reply-To: <00dd01c85024$cb5e78b0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> References: <00dd01c85024$cb5e78b0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801060948i2e78440csbb3a9e513a533b6b@mail.gmail.com> Interesting tidbit, I have been scanning through Kevin Trudeu's book *The Natural Cures They Don't Want You To Know About*. I don't know anything about his religious beliefs, but he doesn't seem attest to one religion over another. He has a list of things to do in his book if you never want to be sick again. One of them was rest from Friday at sundown till Saturday at sundown. He says each week the moon cycles are in position to promote healing and rejuvenation int eh body. Resting during this time promotes the optimal rejuvenation of your cells. Kim On Jan 5, 2008 11:27 PM, Loy wrote: > *You are forgiven dear one.!!!! * > * Have a very blessed week. Leorah* > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Saturday, January 05, 2008 11:21 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews > > Dearest Leorah, > > I just used it as an example - but I take it all back if you (or > anyone) it was a curse of any kind. I care TOO much for you......I would > truly hate for something bad to happen to me - the last 12 months have > already been, probably the worst year in my life, with the only exception of > my mom's (Of Blessed Memory) death. So I repent, and take it back, truly... > > Keep writing - I love to hear from you!!! > > B'Ahavat Yisrael, > Hanoch > > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/704c091c/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 11:51:30 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:51:30 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] new creature In-Reply-To: <354422.7205.qm@web57105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <007601c84fa7$6945bd50$6700a8c0@davesbook> <354422.7205.qm@web57105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801060951r4ecdba5exb36d1fc4bc6a70d2@mail.gmail.com> Congratulations on you newest blessing. Kim On Jan 5, 2008 7:13 PM, Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote: > Sherry and Dave, > Congratulations to all of you.............what a sweet blessing a child > is. Best wishes to your daughter, Beth, and her sweet baby, Chloe. > Shalom, > Tammy > > *Dave Cole * wrote: > > Announcing the birth of Grand baby number Six......(whose counting?) > [:~)>...........Sherrys daughter Beth had Chloe @ 3am......what a day. > > *pressed for time* > dave > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my > every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very > good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely > dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do > only His will." > Rabbi Nachman's > Wisdom 2 > > ------------------------------ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/f95af48b/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 6 11:51:56 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:51:56 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Message-ID: <010620081751.22972.4781153B00079EA4000059BC22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in agreement with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, Carin and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the experience. It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return of the lost tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really long row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are honestly seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done much damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them out, not turning them away. Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has there been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey Sherry - John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, later. But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Hey Sherry, If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them very useful to those learning Hebrew. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" : -------------- Shalom Hanoch, Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the group: Hanoch Hosea 11:7-8 "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been kindled." Hosea 7:8-11 "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/338016fd/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 12:11:11 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:11:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: <010620081751.22972.4781153B00079EA4000059BC22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <108137.18879.qm@web57111.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hey John, There are 2 synagogues that are within driving distance of us and the "welcome" or the lack of that you felt is why we haven't attended either one. We have had friends who have attended or tried to attend both places . The conservative one turned our friend away......the reformed allowed another friend to attend, but they went out to eat after the Erev Shabbat service and ordered shrimp. I am troubled with the thought of fellowshipping with a group who doesn't even try to eat kosher. I have this overwhelming need to belong to a congregation, but don't know where I should go. We have gone to the Chabad house in Birmingham....and were welcomed, but it is such a long way to travel. This is the reason that I am so grateful for Roots of Faith and all of you. Shalom, Tammy carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in agreement with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, Carin and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the experience. It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the lost tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really long row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are honestly seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done much damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them out, not turning them away. Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has there been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey Sherry - John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, later. But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Hey Sherry, If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them very useful to those learning Hebrew. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" : -------------- Shalom Hanoch, Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the group: Hanoch Hosea 11:7-8 "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been kindled." Hosea 7:8-11 "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." --------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ --------------------------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/3fe4bcdf/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 12:11:27 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:11:27 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you and another request from Kim Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801061011v79f50eceia56880e044353bbf@mail.gmail.com> Thank you all for your prayers. I feel a renewed strength. This is such a special group. I feel comforting in knowing I am not alone and that others are reaching out to HaShem on my behalf. I have another request to make. I did not consider this until last night when I was questioned a lot about this list. This is a public list and anyone can subscribe and read the posts. It would probably be best for security for posts concerning my prayer request to be made directly to me at kimalvarado at gmail.com instead of to the list. Thank you all for understanding. Love and blessings, Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/d4be655a/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 6 12:20:37 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:20:37 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Message-ID: <010620081820.3183.47811BF40004C33A00000C6F22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Tammy, Yeah, I consider myself blessed to belong to this group, all of you. I suppose it is a little irrational to expect everyone in authority to just open thier arms to us. Afterall, it is the fact that we are different that makes people suspicious of us. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tammy & Bruce Croley : -------------- Hey John, There are 2 synagogues that are within driving distance of us and the "welcome" or the lack of that you felt is why we haven't attended either one. We have had friends who have attended or tried to attend both places . The conservative one turned our friend away......the reformed allowed another friend to attend, but they went out to eat after the Erev Shabbat service and ordered shrimp. I am troubled with the thought of fellowshipping with a group who doesn't even try to eat kosher. I have this overwhelming need to belong to a congregation, but don't know where I should go. We have gone to the Chabad house in Birmingham....and were welcomed, but it is such a long way to travel. This is the reason that I am so grateful for Roots of Faith and all of you. Shalom, Tammy carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in agreement with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, Carin and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the experience. It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the lost tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really long row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are honestly seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done much damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them out, not turning them away. Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has there been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey Sherry - John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, later. But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Hey Sherry, If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them very useful to those learning Hebrew. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" : -------------- Shalom Hanoch, Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the group: Hanoch Hosea 11:7-8 "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been kindled." Hosea 7:8-11 "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/76148619/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 6 12:21:31 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:21:31 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you and another request from Kim Message-ID: <010620081821.5056.47811C2B0007D3AA000013C022243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> You got it Kim. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "kim alvarado" : -------------- Thank you all for your prayers. I feel a renewed strength. This is such a special group. I feel comforting in knowing I am not alone and that others are reaching out to HaShem on my behalf. I have another request to make. I did not consider this until last night when I was questioned a lot about this list. This is a public list and anyone can subscribe and read the posts. It would probably be best for security for posts concerning my prayer request to be made directly to me at kimalvarado at gmail.com instead of to the list. Thank you all for understanding. Love and blessings, Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/5368ff2b/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 12:25:40 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:25:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Thank you and another request from Kim In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801061011v79f50eceia56880e044353bbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <196612.19552.qm@web57107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Sure thing Kim....I understand completely. Shalom, Tammy kim alvarado wrote: Thank you all for your prayers. I feel a renewed strength. This is such a special group. I feel comforting in knowing I am not alone and that others are reaching out to HaShem on my behalf. I have another request to make. I did not consider this until last night when I was questioned a lot about this list. This is a public list and anyone can subscribe and read the posts. It would probably be best for security for posts concerning my prayer request to be made directly to me at kimalvarado at gmail.com instead of to the list. Thank you all for understanding. Love and blessings, Kim _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/c16423b5/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Jan 6 12:44:43 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:44:43 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801061844.m06Iij4x024114@mail2526.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/fa6ff92e/attachment.html From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 12:50:42 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:42 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: <010620081751.22972.4781153B00079EA4000059BC22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <0JU8005TAK8PW9S0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> John, About the Rabbi's and "The Lost Sheep or Tribes of Israel." Going over to a Rabbi and saying hello I'm a Noahide generally will get the response that's nice good luck. Going to a Rabbi and saying hello I'm Israel might just get the response the nut house is down the block. Within the various Jewish groups there is no standard or fundamental belief that I have found. There are those who would not except gentiles as Israel and added to that the possibility they may not want to convert to Judah but remain Israel. There is a view that the "Lost Tribes" are altogether and living somewhere on earth in hiding and will one day show themselves. But Gentiles X Christians, good luck with that one. I think when they (Israel) start to show up in mass numbers the Rabbi's and the Jewish people will have to deal with it. The fact that they come in defense of the Jewish people and the Land will help. Ray _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:52 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in agreement with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, Carin and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the experience. It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the lost tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really long row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are honestly seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done much damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them out, not turning them away. Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has there been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey Sherry - John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, later. But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Hey Sherry, If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them very useful to those learning Hebrew. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" : -------------- Shalom Hanoch, Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the group: Hanoch Hosea 11:7-8 "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been kindled." Hosea 7:8-11 "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/f63b9540/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 6 12:54:46 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:54:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Subject: The True Followers of Jesus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA1EACBDF8DCF0-DD0-5C67@FWM-D45.sysops.aol.com> Dear Clyde, ????? Well, I am a bit more confused then before.? I'm still not sure how I can help reconcile both sides of the family, but I'm sure open to suggestions? :-)? Any thoughts about concrete things I can do?? Thank you for your faith in me, I will do everything I can to make this all happen.... ????? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, (With Love of Judah & Israel) ??????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 9:05 am Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Subject: The True Followers of Jesus Well, Hanoch, you may represent a coming together of the two houses as one, more-so than you realize. I think there must come a time an ensign is raised up where the greatest idol of the whole earth, i.e. the Greek Jesus Christ must be smashed to pieces so the whole world, might observe a fully human being, Jewish to the core, upholding a correct interpretation of the commandments of God, thereby confirming the eternal covenant that can be renewed as in Duet 28:69,Heb translation, but as long as there is a sun and moon can never be annulled. I will go out on a limb here, and suggest that idol may very well be that image of the beast that the seer saw in vision in Rev 13, that deceives the whole world. Let us make an image as it was said, and from one end of the earth to the other that image has been worshipped. But as the Jewish Yehsua him-self? said - the Father is the only true God and we might add and Him alone must we worship. ?? ? That's my take and I'm sticking to it. ? Take care ? Clyde. ? Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. Attached Message From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Subject: The True Followers of Jesus Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 01:13:29 EST Wow, Clyde....that has some really interesting implications.... ? ??? ??? ??? Hanoch Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/7ca0b3c4/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 6 12:52:55 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:52:55 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: <0JU8005TAK8PW9S0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <010620081751.22972.4781153B00079EA4000059BC22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><0JU8005TAK8PW9S0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <1895443205-1199645752-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1779854918-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Thanks Ray, That helps shine some light on the issues for me. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Raymond Selg Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:42 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... John, ? About the Rabbi?s and ?The Lost Sheep or Tribes of Israel.?? Going over to a Rabbi and saying hello I?m a Noahide generally will get the response that?s nice good luck.? Going to a Rabbi and saying hello I?m Israel might just get the response the nut house is down the block.? Within the various Jewish groups there is no standard or fundamental belief that I have found.? There are those who would not except gentiles as Israel and added to that the possibility they may not want to convert to Judah but remain Israel.? There is a view that the ?Lost Tribes? are altogether and living somewhere on earth in hiding and will one day show themselves.? But Gentiles X Christians, good luck with that one.? I think when they (Israel) start to show up in mass numbers the Rabbi?s and the Jewish people will have to deal with it.? The fact that they come in defense of the Jewish people and the Land will help. ? Ray? ????????????? ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:52 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... ? I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, Population - Four Million.? They left out the "stacked on top of each other" part.? It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. ? Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy out of?New York?but you can't take the?New York?out of the boy".? Believe it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great pleasure.? So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. ? I have been thinking about the subject of your question.? I am in agreement with what the other have written so far.? I have not had much recent interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick?and a couple of people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by.? So what I have to say is more of a perception than anything else.? Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, Carin and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the experience.? It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of.? The thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors.? Even the Rabbi completely ignored us.? We have been having much discussion on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the lost tribes.? But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really long row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are honestly seeking.? Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done much damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, rightly so.? But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them out, not turning them away. ? Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many religious Jews.? But that is what I see.? To put it in a nutshell, has there been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? ? ;-{)} ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey Sherry - ??? John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out of it!? Great job John!? Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born and bred, huh??? :-)? Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, later. ??? But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah faith movement?? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. ??? Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" ??????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Hey Sherry, ? If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in translations of Jewish literature like prayer books.? Joe uses them alot and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he has been reading.? Many of the publications are interlear which makes them very useful to those learning Hebrew. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" >: -------------- Shalom Hanoch, Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... ? Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, ? ??? Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.'? Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. ? ??? Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible.? Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea.? Not sure if it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the group: ??? ??? Hanoch ? Hosea 11:7-8 ??? "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above they call them; together they do not exalt [Him].? How can I give you over Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been kindled." ? Hosea 7:8-11 ??? "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which was not turned over.? Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know.? And the glory of Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this.? And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." ---------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ---------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ---------------- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sun Jan 6 15:16:06 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:16:06 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: <1895443205-1199645752-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1779854918-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <010620081751.22972.4781153B00079EA4000059BC22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <0JU8005TAK8PW9S0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1895443205-1199645752-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1779854918-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <38FE46E9D934448A9AC9DAC5546384C3@DickLPC> Say Ray ! When the Jerusalem Post called from Israel to have me purchase there paper, the lady asked if I was a Christian? I told her NO, I'm a B nai Noah, she exclaimed , OH! Your one of US. So they do know we are out there. I was impressed, really. Dick L > Thanks Ray, > > That helps shine some light on the issues for me. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Selg > > Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:42 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > John, > > About the Rabbi?s and ?The Lost Sheep or Tribes of Israel.? Going over to > a Rabbi and saying hello I?m a Noahide generally will get the response > that?s nice good luck. Going to a Rabbi and saying hello I?m Israel might > just get the response the nut house is down the block. Within the various > Jewish groups there is no standard or fundamental belief that I have > found. There are those who would not except gentiles as Israel and added > to that the possibility they may not want to convert to Judah but remain > Israel. There is a view that the ?Lost Tribes? are altogether and living > somewhere on earth in hiding and will one day show themselves. But > Gentiles X Christians, good luck with that one. I think when they (Israel) > start to show up in mass numbers the Rabbi?s and the Jewish people will > have to deal with it. The fact that they come in defense of the Jewish > people and the Land will help. > > Ray > > > > ---------------- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of > carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:52 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, > Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each > other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. > > > > Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy > out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe > it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great > pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. > > > > I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in agreement > with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent > interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of > people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say > is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, Carin > and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the experience. > It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it > although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The > thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of > our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, > the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. > Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion > on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the lost > tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really long > row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are honestly > seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done much > damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, > rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the > prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in > spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them out, > not turning them away. > > > > Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many > religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has there > been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding > what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the > attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? > > > > ;-{)} > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- > > Hey Sherry - > > John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out > of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born > and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are > hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the > famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, > later. > > But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you > think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah > faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and > I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even > if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. > > Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, > that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" > > Hanoch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > Hey Sherry, > > > > If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in > translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot > and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he > has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them > very useful to those learning Hebrew. > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" >: -------------- > > Shalom Hanoch, > > Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? > > Blessings, Sherry > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: YoungBarzel at aol.com > > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM > > Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > > Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, > > > > Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as > 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which > pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei > Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll > fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. > > > > Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. > Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, > just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if > it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the > group: > > Hanoch > > > > Hosea 11:7-8 > > "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above > they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over > Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] > make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been > kindled." > > > > Hosea 7:8-11 > > "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which > was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not > know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of > Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. > And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have > called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." > > > > > > ---------------- > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > > > ---------------- > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > > ---------------- > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 15:49:32 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:49:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: <38FE46E9D934448A9AC9DAC5546384C3@DickLPC> Message-ID: <0JU800F9KSIRU180@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Actually, that's pretty cool. Ray -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:16 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Say Ray ! When the Jerusalem Post called from Israel to have me purchase there paper, the lady asked if I was a Christian? I told her NO, I'm a B nai Noah, she exclaimed , OH! Your one of US. So they do know we are out there. I was impressed, really. Dick L > Thanks Ray, > > That helps shine some light on the issues for me. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Selg > > Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:42 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > John, > > About the Rabbi's and "The Lost Sheep or Tribes of Israel." Going over to > a Rabbi and saying hello I'm a Noahide generally will get the response > that's nice good luck. Going to a Rabbi and saying hello I'm Israel might > just get the response the nut house is down the block. Within the various > Jewish groups there is no standard or fundamental belief that I have > found. There are those who would not except gentiles as Israel and added > to that the possibility they may not want to convert to Judah but remain > Israel. There is a view that the "Lost Tribes" are altogether and living > somewhere on earth in hiding and will one day show themselves. But > Gentiles X Christians, good luck with that one. I think when they (Israel) > start to show up in mass numbers the Rabbi's and the Jewish people will > have to deal with it. The fact that they come in defense of the Jewish > people and the Land will help. > > Ray > > > > ---------------- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of > carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:52 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, > Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each > other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. > > > > Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy > out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe > it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great > pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. > > > > I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in agreement > with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent > interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of > people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say > is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, Carin > and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the experience. > It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it > although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The > thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of > our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, > the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. > Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion > on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the lost > tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really long > row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are honestly > seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done much > damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, > rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the > prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in > spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them out, > not turning them away. > > > > Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many > religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has there > been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding > what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the > attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? > > > > ;-{)} > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- > > Hey Sherry - > > John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out > of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born > and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are > hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the > famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, > later. > > But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you > think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah > faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and > I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even > if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. > > Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, > that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" > > Hanoch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > Hey Sherry, > > > > If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in > translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot > and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he > has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them > very useful to those learning Hebrew. > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" >: -------------- > > Shalom Hanoch, > > Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? > > Blessings, Sherry > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: YoungBarzel at aol.com > > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM > > Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > > Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, > > > > Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as > 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which > pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei > Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll > fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. > > > > Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. > Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, > just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if > it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the > group: > > Hanoch > > > > Hosea 11:7-8 > > "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above > they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over > Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] > make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been > kindled." > > > > Hosea 7:8-11 > > "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which > was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not > know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of > Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. > And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have > called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." > > > > > > ---------------- > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > > > ---------------- > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > > ---------------- > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 6 15:47:11 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:47:11 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: <0JU800F9KSIRU180@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <38FE46E9D934448A9AC9DAC5546384C3@DickLPC><0JU800F9KSIRU180@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <453295366-1199656208-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-619611132-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Yes it is! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Raymond Selg Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:49:32 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... Actually, that's pretty cool. Ray -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:16 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Say Ray ! When the Jerusalem Post called from Israel to have me purchase there paper, the lady asked if I was a Christian? I told her NO, I'm a B nai Noah, she exclaimed , OH! Your one of US. So they do know we are out there. I was impressed, really. Dick L > Thanks Ray, > > That helps shine some light on the issues for me. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Selg > > Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:42 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > John, > > About the Rabbi's and "The Lost Sheep or Tribes of Israel." Going over to > a Rabbi and saying hello I'm a Noahide generally will get the response > that's nice good luck. Going to a Rabbi and saying hello I'm Israel might > just get the response the nut house is down the block. Within the various > Jewish groups there is no standard or fundamental belief that I have > found. There are those who would not except gentiles as Israel and added > to that the possibility they may not want to convert to Judah but remain > Israel. There is a view that the "Lost Tribes" are altogether and living > somewhere on earth in hiding and will one day show themselves. But > Gentiles X Christians, good luck with that one. I think when they (Israel) > start to show up in mass numbers the Rabbi's and the Jewish people will > have to deal with it. The fact that they come in defense of the Jewish > people and the Land will help. > > Ray > > > > ---------------- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of > carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:52 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, > Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each > other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. > > > > Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy > out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe > it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great > pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. > > > > I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in agreement > with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent > interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of > people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say > is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, Carin > and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the experience. > It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it > although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The > thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of > our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, > the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. > Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion > on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the lost > tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really long > row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are honestly > seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done much > damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, > rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the > prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in > spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them out, > not turning them away. > > > > Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many > religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has there > been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding > what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the > attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? > > > > ;-{)} > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- > > Hey Sherry - > > John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out > of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born > and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are > hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the > famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, > later. > > But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you > think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah > faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and > I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even > if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. > > Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, > that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" > > Hanoch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > Hey Sherry, > > > > If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in > translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot > and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he > has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them > very useful to those learning Hebrew. > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" >: -------------- > > Shalom Hanoch, > > Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? > > Blessings, Sherry > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: YoungBarzel at aol.com > > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM > > Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > > Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, > > > > Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as > 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which > pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei > Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll > fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. > > > > Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. > Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, > just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if > it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the > group: > > Hanoch > > > > Hosea 11:7-8 > > "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above > they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over > Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] > make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been > kindled." > > > > Hosea 7:8-11 > > "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which > was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not > know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of > Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. > And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have > called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." > > > > > > ---------------- > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > > > ---------------- > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > > ---------------- > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 15:57:23 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:57:23 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: <0JU800F9KSIRU180@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0JU800FN4SVT5F90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I just remembered that when I first started out with the Noahide thing The Jewish Press would not take an advertisement that I wanted to print and pay for to make known our existence. But that was more than a decade and a half ago. Ray -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... Actually, that's pretty cool. Ray -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:16 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Say Ray ! When the Jerusalem Post called from Israel to have me purchase there paper, the lady asked if I was a Christian? I told her NO, I'm a B nai Noah, she exclaimed , OH! Your one of US. So they do know we are out there. I was impressed, really. Dick L > Thanks Ray, > > That helps shine some light on the issues for me. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Selg > > Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:42 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > John, > > About the Rabbi's and "The Lost Sheep or Tribes of Israel." Going over to > a Rabbi and saying hello I'm a Noahide generally will get the response > that's nice good luck. Going to a Rabbi and saying hello I'm Israel might > just get the response the nut house is down the block. Within the various > Jewish groups there is no standard or fundamental belief that I have > found. There are those who would not except gentiles as Israel and added > to that the possibility they may not want to convert to Judah but remain > Israel. There is a view that the "Lost Tribes" are altogether and living > somewhere on earth in hiding and will one day show themselves. But > Gentiles X Christians, good luck with that one. I think when they (Israel) > start to show up in mass numbers the Rabbi's and the Jewish people will > have to deal with it. The fact that they come in defense of the Jewish > people and the Land will help. > > Ray > > > > ---------------- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of > carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:52 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, > Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each > other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. > > > > Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy > out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe > it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great > pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. > > > > I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in agreement > with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent > interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of > people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say > is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, Carin > and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the experience. > It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it > although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The > thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of > our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, > the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. > Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion > on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the lost > tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really long > row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are honestly > seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done much > damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, > rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the > prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in > spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them out, > not turning them away. > > > > Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many > religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has there > been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding > what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the > attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? > > > > ;-{)} > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- > > Hey Sherry - > > John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out > of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born > and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are > hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the > famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, > later. > > But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you > think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah > faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and > I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even > if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. > > Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, > that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" > > Hanoch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > Hey Sherry, > > > > If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in > translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot > and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he > has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them > very useful to those learning Hebrew. > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" >: -------------- > > Shalom Hanoch, > > Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? > > Blessings, Sherry > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: YoungBarzel at aol.com > > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM > > Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > > Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, > > > > Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as > 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which > pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei > Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll > fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. > > > > Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. > Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, > just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if > it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the > group: > > Hanoch > > > > Hosea 11:7-8 > > "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above > they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over > Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] > make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been > kindled." > > > > Hosea 7:8-11 > > "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which > was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not > know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of > Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. > And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have > called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." > > > > > > ---------------- > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > > > ---------------- > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > > ---------------- > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 16:34:13 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:34:13 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: <0JU800FN4SVT5F90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0JU800HM8UL72Z80@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> All Just a thought. When I first started out with the Noahide thing my friend and I found out about this guy, his name was Dr. Lawrence Corey from California. We meet him once at JFK while he was on his way somewhere. And he told us that his research found that those who went from Christianity to being a Noahide those people had a jump in paycheck or found a better job or something like that. At the time I was working at Republic airport and about two years later the company I worked for, Fairchild Republic went out of business. Well so much for research. Ray -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:57 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... I just remembered that when I first started out with the Noahide thing The Jewish Press would not take an advertisement that I wanted to print and pay for to make known our existence. But that was more than a decade and a half ago. Ray -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... Actually, that's pretty cool. Ray -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:16 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Say Ray ! When the Jerusalem Post called from Israel to have me purchase there paper, the lady asked if I was a Christian? I told her NO, I'm a B nai Noah, she exclaimed , OH! Your one of US. So they do know we are out there. I was impressed, really. Dick L > Thanks Ray, > > That helps shine some light on the issues for me. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Selg > > Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:42 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > John, > > About the Rabbi's and "The Lost Sheep or Tribes of Israel." Going over to > a Rabbi and saying hello I'm a Noahide generally will get the response > that's nice good luck. Going to a Rabbi and saying hello I'm Israel might > just get the response the nut house is down the block. Within the various > Jewish groups there is no standard or fundamental belief that I have > found. There are those who would not except gentiles as Israel and added > to that the possibility they may not want to convert to Judah but remain > Israel. There is a view that the "Lost Tribes" are altogether and living > somewhere on earth in hiding and will one day show themselves. But > Gentiles X Christians, good luck with that one. I think when they (Israel) > start to show up in mass numbers the Rabbi's and the Jewish people will > have to deal with it. The fact that they come in defense of the Jewish > people and the Land will help. > > Ray > > > > ---------------- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of > carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:52 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, > Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each > other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. > > > > Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy > out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe > it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great > pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. > > > > I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in agreement > with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent > interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of > people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say > is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, Carin > and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the experience. > It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it > although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The > thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of > our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, > the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. > Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion > on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the lost > tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really long > row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are honestly > seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done much > damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, > rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the > prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in > spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them out, > not turning them away. > > > > Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many > religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has there > been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding > what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the > attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? > > > > ;-{)} > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- > > Hey Sherry - > > John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out > of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born > and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are > hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the > famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, > later. > > But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you > think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah > faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and > I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even > if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. > > Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, > that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" > > Hanoch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > Hey Sherry, > > > > If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in > translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot > and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he > has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them > very useful to those learning Hebrew. > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" >: -------------- > > Shalom Hanoch, > > Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? > > Blessings, Sherry > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: YoungBarzel at aol.com > > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM > > Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > > Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, > > > > Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as > 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which > pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei > Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll > fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. > > > > Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. > Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, > just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if > it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the > group: > > Hanoch > > > > Hosea 11:7-8 > > "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above > they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over > Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] > make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been > kindled." > > > > Hosea 7:8-11 > > "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which > was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not > know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of > Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. > And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have > called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." > > > > > > ---------------- > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > > > ---------------- > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > > ---------------- > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 16:32:59 2008 From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:32:59 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: <0JU800FN4SVT5F90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0JU800FN4SVT5F90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <98B27DA7-B6C6-4293-8653-CF0D410FEE53@yahoo.com> I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/3a3b8b8b/attachment.html From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 16:48:18 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:48:18 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... In-Reply-To: <0JU800HM8UL72Z80@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0JU800KPSV8U8960@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> All I have another one. In the beginning (the Noahide thing) we also found out about J David. So we call him up and talked to him and he was very gracious to us and after we hung up with him my friend turns to me and asked me what I thought. Now you have to understand this was very early on with this movement. The Rabbi's we talked to thought we were the only ones in the world. Ok so I think for a moment after our conversation on the phone with J David and finding out about his group and I reply, no way there's a whole bunch of people doing what we are doing. I wasn't sure what we were doing. Ray -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... All Just a thought. When I first started out with the Noahide thing my friend and I found out about this guy, his name was Dr. Lawrence Corey from California. We meet him once at JFK while he was on his way somewhere. And he told us that his research found that those who went from Christianity to being a Noahide those people had a jump in paycheck or found a better job or something like that. At the time I was working at Republic airport and about two years later the company I worked for, Fairchild Republic went out of business. Well so much for research. Ray -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:57 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... I just remembered that when I first started out with the Noahide thing The Jewish Press would not take an advertisement that I wanted to print and pay for to make known our existence. But that was more than a decade and a half ago. Ray -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... Actually, that's pretty cool. Ray -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:16 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... Say Ray ! When the Jerusalem Post called from Israel to have me purchase there paper, the lady asked if I was a Christian? I told her NO, I'm a B nai Noah, she exclaimed , OH! Your one of US. So they do know we are out there. I was impressed, really. Dick L > Thanks Ray, > > That helps shine some light on the issues for me. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Selg > > Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:42 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > John, > > About the Rabbi's and "The Lost Sheep or Tribes of Israel." Going over to > a Rabbi and saying hello I'm a Noahide generally will get the response > that's nice good luck. Going to a Rabbi and saying hello I'm Israel might > just get the response the nut house is down the block. Within the various > Jewish groups there is no standard or fundamental belief that I have > found. There are those who would not except gentiles as Israel and added > to that the possibility they may not want to convert to Judah but remain > Israel. There is a view that the "Lost Tribes" are altogether and living > somewhere on earth in hiding and will one day show themselves. But > Gentiles X Christians, good luck with that one. I think when they (Israel) > start to show up in mass numbers the Rabbi's and the Jewish people will > have to deal with it. The fact that they come in defense of the Jewish > people and the Land will help. > > Ray > > > > ---------------- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of > carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:52 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, > Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each > other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. > > > > Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy > out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe > it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great > pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. > > > > I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in agreement > with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent > interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of > people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say > is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, Carin > and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the experience. > It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it > although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The > thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of > our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, > the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. > Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion > on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the lost > tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really long > row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are honestly > seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done much > damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, > rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the > prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in > spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them out, > not turning them away. > > > > Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many > religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has there > been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding > what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the > attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? > > > > ;-{)} > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- > > Hey Sherry - > > John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' out > of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born > and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are > hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the > famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, > later. > > But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you > think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah > faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and > I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even > if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. > > Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, > that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" > > Hanoch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > Hey Sherry, > > > > If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in > translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot > and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he > has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them > very useful to those learning Hebrew. > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" >: -------------- > > Shalom Hanoch, > > Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? > > Blessings, Sherry > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: YoungBarzel at aol.com > > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM > > Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > > Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, > > > > Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as > 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which > pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei > Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll > fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. > > > > Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. > Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, > just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if > it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the > group: > > Hanoch > > > > Hosea 11:7-8 > > "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above > they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over > Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] > make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have been > kindled." > > > > Hosea 7:8-11 > > "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake which > was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not > know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory of > Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all this. > And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have > called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." > > > > > > ---------------- > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > > > ---------------- > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > > ---------------- > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! > _______________________________________________ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 16:51:09 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: <98B27DA7-B6C6-4293-8653-CF0D410FEE53@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0JU800LPMVDG4T30@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Thanks but what's the password? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/038a1d82/attachment.html From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 16:53:38 2008 From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:53:38 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: <0JU800LPMVDG4T30@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0JU800LPMVDG4T30@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <53889A8E-8FD4-4811-AF36-E5A74255D272@yahoo.com> sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: > Thanks but what?s the password? > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land > > > > I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite > pics from my home Land Israel. > > > > http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html > > > > Rick > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/2b545b88/attachment.html From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 17:00:36 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:00:36 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: <53889A8E-8FD4-4811-AF36-E5A74255D272@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0JU800ETFVT6IOB0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Hey Rick, these are beautiful thank you for sharing them. Ray _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:54 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but what's the password? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/9bc96a46/attachment.html From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 17:01:44 2008 From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:01:44 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: <0JU800ETFVT6IOB0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0JU800ETFVT6IOB0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: No problem Ray, I took those a while back but I always like to look at them. Makes me homesick! Rick On Jan 6, 2008, at 5:00 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: > > > Hey Rick, these are beautiful thank you for sharing them. Ray > > > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:54 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land > > > > sorry, try again. > > > > > > On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: > > > > > Thanks but what?s the password? > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land > > > > I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite > pics from my home Land Israel. > > > > http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html > > > > Rick > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/eedff23e/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 6 17:12:52 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:12:52 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land Message-ID: <010620082312.16511.478160740004AC6C0000407F22193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Very beautiful Rick. Someday man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij : -------------- sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but what?s the password? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/f586f7b9/attachment.html From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 17:21:23 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:21:23 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0JU800L80WRX3H70@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Rick, I can see why? Haven't had the opportunity yet but would like to. Ray _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:02 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land No problem Ray, I took those a while back but I always like to look at them. Makes me homesick! Rick On Jan 6, 2008, at 5:00 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Hey Rick, these are beautiful thank you for sharing them. Ray _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:54 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but what's the password? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/85df6b45/attachment.html From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 17:22:27 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:22:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: <010620082312.16511.478160740004AC6C0000407F22193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <0JU800E5AWTL5GC0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Someday! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land Very beautiful Rick. Someday man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij : -------------- sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but whats the password? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/5951ce0e/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 17:30:50 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:30:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: <98B27DA7-B6C6-4293-8653-CF0D410FEE53@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <275902.33940.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi Rick, Beautiful shots...makes me "homesick" and I've never been! Hopefully, one day soon!! Thanks for sharing. Shalom, Tammy Rick Gozhanskij wrote: I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/cd5dfa8d/attachment.html From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 17:36:05 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:36:05 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: <275902.33940.qm@web57106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0JU800FD6XGB5FC0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Tammy, if you get there before me send pictures this way. Ray _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:31 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land Hi Rick, Beautiful shots...makes me "homesick" and I've never been! Hopefully, one day soon!! Thanks for sharing. Shalom, Tammy Rick Gozhanskij wrote: I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 _____ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/3cd688bb/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 17:36:09 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:36:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? In-Reply-To: <0JU800E5AWTL5GC0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <300069.36985.qm@web57111.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hey Raymond, Did I miss your introduction.......sorry if I did. Where are you from? I am from Alabama. It's always interesting for me to find out where we are all located. Thanks for your posts today. Shalom, Tammy Raymond Selg wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Someday! --------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land Very beautiful Rick. Someday man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij : -------------- sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but whats the password? --------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/6415a974/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 17:42:57 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:42:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: <0JU800FD6XGB5FC0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <978299.40533.qm@web57111.mail.re3.yahoo.com> You got it...Ray Shalom, Tammy Raymond Selg wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Tammy, if you get there before me send pictures this way. Ray --------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:31 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land Hi Rick, Beautiful shots...makes me "homesick" and I've never been! Hopefully, one day soon!! Thanks for sharing. Shalom, Tammy Rick Gozhanskij wrote: I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/0a9f759b/attachment.html From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 17:55:58 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:55:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? In-Reply-To: <300069.36985.qm@web57111.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0JU800LQZYDK4T50@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Tammy Either I did an intro early on or maybe not at all I don't even remember. It's nice to hear from you. I'm in New York or actually I live on Long Island. I'm not one of those city boys like Hanoch. Being that I'm from up here I don't know any Tammy's. I do now. How's things on your end? Its cold up hear I'll tell you that much. Ray _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? Hey Raymond, Did I miss your introduction.......sorry if I did. Where are you from? I am from Alabama. It's always interesting for me to find out where we are all located. Thanks for your posts today. Shalom, Tammy Raymond Selg wrote: Someday! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land Very beautiful Rick. Someday man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij : -------------- sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but whats the password? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/d25a6277/attachment.html From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 17:57:52 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:57:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? In-Reply-To: <0JU800LQZYDK4T50@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0JU800DXDYGMLTO0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Dick's from Maine so I can't complain I guess. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? Tammy Either I did an intro early on or maybe not at all I don't even remember. It's nice to hear from you. I'm in New York or actually I live on Long Island. I'm not one of those city boys like Hanoch. Being that I'm from up here I don't know any Tammy's. I do now. How's things on your end? Its cold up hear I'll tell you that much. Ray _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? Hey Raymond, Did I miss your introduction.......sorry if I did. Where are you from? I am from Alabama. It's always interesting for me to find out where we are all located. Thanks for your posts today. Shalom, Tammy Raymond Selg wrote: Someday! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land Very beautiful Rick. Someday man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij : -------------- sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but whats the password? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/4f175e29/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 18:00:04 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:00:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? In-Reply-To: <0JU800LQZYDK4T50@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <750440.17630.qm@web57108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Ray, Believe it or not, our weather today was beautiful ( 71degrees ). Just 2-3 days ago, we were having 17 at night and only about 39 during the day. Go figure! I am certainly not complaining....but it is strange to be this warm in January. Shalom from Alabama, Tammy Raymond Selg wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Tammy Either I did an intro early on or maybe not at all I don?t even remember. It?s nice to hear from you. I?m in New York or actually I live on Long Island. I?m not one of those city boys like Hanoch. Being that I?m from up here I don?t know any Tammy?s. I do now. How?s things on your end? Its cold up hear I?ll tell you that much. Ray --------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? Hey Raymond, Did I miss your introduction.......sorry if I did. Where are you from? I am from Alabama. It's always interesting for me to find out where we are all located. Thanks for your posts today. Shalom, Tammy Raymond Selg wrote: Someday! --------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land Very beautiful Rick. Someday man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij : -------------- sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but whats the password? --------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/3a9d4f82/attachment.html From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 18:06:52 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:06:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? In-Reply-To: <750440.17630.qm@web57108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0JU800K61YVTKD80@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I could use some of that 71? weather right now. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:00 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? Ray, Believe it or not, our weather today was beautiful ( 71degrees ). Just 2-3 days ago, we were having 17 at night and only about 39 during the day. Go figure! I am certainly not complaining....but it is strange to be this warm in January. Shalom from Alabama, Tammy Raymond Selg wrote: Tammy Either I did an intro early on or maybe not at all I don?t even remember. It?s nice to hear from you. I?m in New York or actually I live on Long Island. I?m not one of those city boys like Hanoch. Being that I?m from up here I don?t know any Tammy?s. I do now. How?s things on your end? Its cold up hear I?ll tell you that much. Ray _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? Hey Raymond, Did I miss your introduction.......sorry if I did. Where are you from? I am from Alabama. It's always interesting for me to find out where we are all located. Thanks for your posts today. Shalom, Tammy Raymond Selg wrote: Someday! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land Very beautiful Rick. Someday man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij : -------------- sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but whats the password? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 _____ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/33444c12/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 01:36:49 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 02:36:49 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Friends with a Mutual Purpose In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ross, Here is a scan of the document. Yes, it was definitely done on a typewriter back in 1944. I find this totally amazing in terms of its utter simplicity, particularly considering how Horowitz had come from the Guibbory experience but brought none of it over into the founding of UIWU...These principles stand ever so true today! Amazing! James On Jan 4, 2008, at 1:15 AM, rndavar at aol.com wrote: > I made a mistake in this note where I said that David Horowitz typed > this on his "computer". I meant to say that he typed it on his > typewriter. > > Shalom, Ross > > Ross K. Nichols > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/dca4f7b6/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: UIWU1944.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79178 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/dca4f7b6/attachment.jpg From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Jan 4 09:10:35 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:10:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Sneeze ! Message-ID: <42AAEE9029BA4BAFB28F8FF267F9C3C5@DickLPC> We can overcome all obstacles, can't we ?? Dick L. Subject: The Sneeze ! Excellent!! THE SNEEZE They walked in tandem, each of the ninety-two students filing into the already crowded auditorium. With their rich maroon gowns flowing ... and the traditional caps, they looked almost ... as grown up as they felt. Dads swallowed hard behind broad smiles, and Moms freely brushed away tears. This class would NOT pray during the commencements----not by choice, but because of a recent court ruling prohibiting it. The principal and several students were careful to stay within the guidelines allowed by the ruling. They gave inspirational and challenging speeches, but no one mentioned divine guidance and no one asked for blessings on the graduates or their families. The speeches were nice, but they were routine.....until the final speech received a standing ovation. A solitary student walked proudly to the microphone. He stood still and silent for just a moment, and then, ithappened. H All 92 students, every single one of them, suddenly SNEEZED!!!! The student on stage.. simply looked at the audience and said, "GOD BLESS YOU, each and every one of you!" And he walked off stage... The audience exploded into applause. This graduating class had found a unique way to invoke God's blessing on their future with or without the court's approval. Isn't this a wonderful story? Pass it on to all your friends.........and GOD BLESS YOU!!!! This is a true story; it happened at the University of Maryland . "Have A Nice Day" ~ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080104/780fcb94/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sun Jan 6 18:31:26 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:31:26 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... References: <0JU800KPSV8U8960@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <001f01c850c4$a41ff8f0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> That last comment brought a deep chuckle out of me. and am still laughing!!! Yes, just what is it that we are about??? Loy Leorah......besides just trying to the best of our ability ....to stay out of HaShem's way!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raymond Selg" To: Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:48 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > All > > I have another one. In the beginning (the Noahide thing) we also found > out > about J David. So we call him up and talked to him and he was very > gracious > to us and after we hung up with him my friend turns to me and asked me > what > I thought. Now you have to understand this was very early on with this > movement. The Rabbi's we talked to thought we were the only ones in the > world. Ok so I think for a moment after our conversation on the phone > with > J David and finding out about his group and I reply, no way there's a > whole > bunch of people doing what we are doing. I wasn't sure what we were > doing. > > Ray > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:34 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > All > > Just a thought. > When I first started out with the Noahide thing my friend and I found out > about this guy, his name was Dr. Lawrence Corey from California. We meet > him once at JFK while he was on his way somewhere. And he told us that > his > research found that those who went from Christianity to being a Noahide > those people had a jump in paycheck or found a better job or something > like > that. At the time I was working at Republic airport and about two years > later the company I worked for, Fairchild Republic went out of business. > Well so much for research. > > Ray > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:57 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > I just remembered that when I first started out with the Noahide thing The > Jewish Press would not take an advertisement that I wanted to print and > pay > for to make known our existence. But that was more than a decade and a > half > ago. Ray > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:50 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > Actually, that's pretty cool. Ray > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:16 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > Say Ray ! When the Jerusalem Post called from Israel to > have me purchase there paper, the lady asked if I was a Christian? I told > her NO, I'm a B nai Noah, she exclaimed , OH! Your one of US. So they do > know we are out there. I was impressed, really. Dick L > > >> Thanks Ray, >> >> That helps shine some light on the issues for me. >> >> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Raymond Selg >> >> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:42 >> To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... >> >> >> John, >> >> About the Rabbi's and "The Lost Sheep or Tribes of Israel." Going over to >> a Rabbi and saying hello I'm a Noahide generally will get the response >> that's nice good luck. Going to a Rabbi and saying hello I'm Israel might >> just get the response the nut house is down the block. Within the various >> Jewish groups there is no standard or fundamental belief that I have >> found. There are those who would not except gentiles as Israel and added >> to that the possibility they may not want to convert to Judah but remain >> Israel. There is a view that the "Lost Tribes" are altogether and living >> somewhere on earth in hiding and will one day show themselves. But >> Gentiles X Christians, good luck with that one. I think when they >> (Israel) > >> start to show up in mass numbers the Rabbi's and the Jewish people will >> have to deal with it. The fact that they come in defense of the Jewish >> people and the Land will help. >> >> Ray >> >> >> >> ---------------- >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of >> carlson_john at bellsouth.net >> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:52 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... >> >> >> I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, >> Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each >> other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. >> >> >> >> Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy >> out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe >> it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great >> pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. >> >> >> >> I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in >> agreement > >> with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent >> interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of >> people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say >> is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, >> Carin > >> and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the >> experience. > >> It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it >> although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The >> thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of >> our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, >> the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. >> Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion >> on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the >> lost > >> tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really >> long > >> row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are >> honestly > >> seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done >> much > >> damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, >> rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the >> prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in >> spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them >> out, > >> not turning them away. >> >> >> >> Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many >> religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has >> there > >> been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding >> what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the >> attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? >> >> >> >> ;-{)} >> >> >> >> -- >> John C. >> >> "Be excellent to each other!" >> Bill and Ted >> >> -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- >> >> Hey Sherry - >> >> John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' >> out > >> of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born >> and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are >> hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the >> famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, >> later. >> >> But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you >> think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah >> faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and >> I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even >> if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. >> >> Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, >> that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" >> >> Hanoch >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... >> >> >> Hey Sherry, >> >> >> >> If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in >> translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot >> and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he >> has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them >> very useful to those learning Hebrew. >> >> >> >> -- >> John C. >> >> "Be excellent to each other!" >> Bill and Ted >> >> -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" > >: -------------- >> >> Shalom Hanoch, >> >> Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? >> >> Blessings, Sherry >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: YoungBarzel at aol.com >> >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM >> >> Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... >> >> >> >> Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, >> >> >> >> Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as >> 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which >> pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei >> Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll >> fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. >> >> >> >> Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. >> Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, >> just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if >> it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the >> group: >> >> Hanoch >> >> >> >> Hosea 11:7-8 >> >> "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above >> they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over >> Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] >> make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have >> been > >> kindled." >> >> >> >> Hosea 7:8-11 >> >> "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake >> which > >> was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not >> know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory >> of > >> Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all >> this. > >> And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have >> called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------- >> >> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. >> >> >> ---------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> ---------------- >> >> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 6 18:31:33 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 00:31:33 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? Message-ID: <010720080031.21058.478172E40009B48C0000524222218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Another New Yorker, how 'bout dat! ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Raymond Selg : -------------- Tammy Either I did an intro early on or maybe not at all I don?t even remember. It?s nice to hear from you. I?m in New York or actually I live on Long Island. I?m not one of those city boys like Hanoch. Being that I?m from up here I don?t know any Tammy?s. I do now. How?s things on your end? Its cold up hear I?ll tell you that much. Ray From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? Hey Raymond, Did I miss your introduction.......sorry if I did. Where are you from? I am from Alabama. It's always interesting for me to find out where we are all located. Thanks for your posts today. Shalom, Tammy Raymond Selg wrote: Someday! From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land Very beautiful Rick. Someday man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij : -------------- sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but whats the password? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/398bfbbb/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sun Jan 6 18:35:01 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:35:01 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land References: <0JU800ETFVT6IOB0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <003501c850c5$24062120$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> MAKES ME HOMESICK TOO! a FRIEND JUST WROTE THAT HE IS LEAVING FOR ISRAEL THE END OF THIS MONTH HOPEFULLY for good. I am sooo jealous. Thanks for sharing your pictures. Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Gozhanskij To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land No problem Ray, I took those a while back but I always like to look at them. Makes me homesick! Rick On Jan 6, 2008, at 5:00 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Hey Rick, these are beautiful thank you for sharing them. Ray ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:54 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but what?s the password? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/2e5e30d4/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sun Jan 6 19:02:09 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:02:09 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua References: <7E5A04D0-65D1-4058-A3EC-79AF9F979CC8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <012a01c850c8$eecb47c0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> James, I would very much like to buy a copy of the Blue Book as well as Sinai. Do you have any ideas about securing either book? I googled the Blue Book. to no avail. Thanks, Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua The problem I see here is that in Hebrew thought, women too "seed seed," see the Hebrew of Gen 3:15; Lev 12:2, etc. Also see Tal Ilan's work on this whole matter. Herod knew that a Hashmonean princess was just the thing he needed to try to bring a bit of "royalty" into his mixed background. Tal Ilan gives lots of other examples. Yeshua, definitely through his mother, and maybe through his father, was not only of Abraham, Judah, but also Davidic... It is interesting that Zechariah 10 picks up on the family of Nathan through David...not Solomon. This is the lost line, and the one represented in Luke 3. Best, James On Jan 4, 2008, at 3:13 PM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: As James commented this entire birth of Yeshua is fraught with difficulties. James has sent forth his own investigation and his thoughts I take serious. But even so my own thoughts run somewhat differently which of course does not make me right and James wrong, nor visa versa. But for the sake of discussion and to set forth my own opinions to be taken as no more than that, it just doesn't register for me that Yeshua to be taken seriously by some Jews at the time, that he was illegitimate, nor that he was adopted by Joseph. At one time I just read over the genealogies and paid little attention. But since, I have discovered just how important those genealogies really are. Now this is just me, if Yeshua was not the biological son of Joseph and Mary - then he was not the one, and I'm looking for another, right along with most Jews still awaiting the messiah son of David. The Muslims as far as I know take Ishmael as the promised seed of Abraham. And if blood-line from Abraham to Yeshua can make Yeshua the messiah by adoption, then the Muslims have a legal winnable case. Now, I'm being very technical here but let me explain why I say this. We have to go back to the time of Abraham and Sarah. Sarah owned a slave named Hagar and she belonged to Sarah and she could use her as she willed. It seems that Sarah grew impatient and since she was unable to bare, her slave girl could bare a son for her. Abraham agreed. Sarah's slave belonged to her and by right so would a son born by Abraham through her. Although the son would not come from Sarah's womb it would still be her son by adoption. However, God stepped in and said no Sarah, you will bare a son. Now fast forward to late second temple and think about what God said to Sarah about her notion of adoption. For me then the only thing that works is Yeshua must be of the blood-line of Abraham and that is in the sperm of the male, DNA counts, and must come from the seed of the woman - a daughter of Sarah even through a long way down the seed of seeds linage. Now I only present this for consideration and absolutely not for argumentation. Any one have a comment Clyde ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. From: "mhyde" Date: January 4, 2008 12:06:03 PM EST To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org James, Thanks for the reply. You pointed me in the direction, and like a bird dog on a pheasant, I will start searching. I understand the constraints on your time. I have always understood this. Publish when you can. marvin -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:25 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Good and complex question Marvin and I have lots to say but just no time...I will save it and try to get to it. But the short answer is "no," based on God choosing often the "low" or "despised" and raising it up, specifically regarding the "throne," see Ezekiel 21:25-27 in particular. Also, contrary to common opinion the "royal" lineage could pass via the mother/female. There has been a lot of work on this, much of it by the Israeli scholar Tal Ilan... Rushing... James On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:02 PM, mhyde wrote: James, You said: "Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," I agree with adoption and Yeshua legally being the son of Joseph, thus having the "Yeshua bar Yosef" title. But if the pregnancy out of wedlock is historical then would that not disqualify Yeshua from the throne of David? marvin -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Tammy, just a few comments that may or may not get at what you are thinking here... There were (and are today) numerous descendants of David, any one of which could potentially qualify as "David's seed," and thus became a candidate for anointing as king/messiah if chosen by God or anointed by the Prophet. I am of the view that the genealogy Matthew provides is that of Joseph, while Luke gives Mary's genealogy. Many scholars disagree but I find this convincing as you know from my book. It also means that the bloodline went from David through Nathan, not through Solomon. Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," as we see in John 1:45 and elsewhere. I am not sure I am getting at all you are asking though so please clarify if need be. Take care, James On Jan 3, 2008, at 2:28 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: I'm just curious since Yeshua was decended from two Davidic lines. Would he not of technically been a King anyway? I'm asking this because of the Ossuary that states. "Yeshua bar Yosef"" had Yosef been his father? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/11c61dcd/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sun Jan 6 19:04:05 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:04:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Question re: The Blue Book & Sinai??? References: <7E5A04D0-65D1-4058-A3EC-79AF9F979CC8@earthlink.net> <012a01c850c8$eecb47c0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <014001c850c9$33c29d60$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Sorry I didn't chg the subject above on the last one. Loy James, I would very much like to buy a copy of the Blue Book as well as Sinai. Do you have any ideas about securing either book? I googled the Blue Book. to no avail. Thanks, Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua The problem I see here is that in Hebrew thought, women too "seed seed," see the Hebrew of Gen 3:15; Lev 12:2, etc. Also see Tal Ilan's work on this whole matter. Herod knew that a Hashmonean princess was just the thing he needed to try to bring a bit of "royalty" into his mixed background. Tal Ilan gives lots of other examples. Yeshua, definitely through his mother, and maybe through his father, was not only of Abraham, Judah, but also Davidic... It is interesting that Zechariah 10 picks up on the family of Nathan through David...not Solomon. This is the lost line, and the one represented in Luke 3. Best, James On Jan 4, 2008, at 3:13 PM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: As James commented this entire birth of Yeshua is fraught with difficulties. James has sent forth his own investigation and his thoughts I take serious. But even so my own thoughts run somewhat differently which of course does not make me right and James wrong, nor visa versa. But for the sake of discussion and to set forth my own opinions to be taken as no more than that, it just doesn't register for me that Yeshua to be taken seriously by some Jews at the time, that he was illegitimate, nor that he was adopted by Joseph. At one time I just read over the genealogies and paid little attention. But since, I have discovered just how important those genealogies really are. Now this is just me, if Yeshua was not the biological son of Joseph and Mary - then he was not the one, and I'm looking for another, right along with most Jews still awaiting the messiah son of David. The Muslims as far as I know take Ishmael as the promised seed of Abraham. And if blood-line from Abraham to Yeshua can make Yeshua the messiah by adoption, then the Muslims have a legal winnable case. Now, I'm being very technical here but let me explain why I say this. We have to go back to the time of Abraham and Sarah. Sarah owned a slave named Hagar and she belonged to Sarah and she could use her as she willed. It seems that Sarah grew impatient and since she was unable to bare, her slave girl could bare a son for her. Abraham agreed. Sarah's slave belonged to her and by right so would a son born by Abraham through her. Although the son would not come from Sarah's womb it would still be her son by adoption. However, God stepped in and said no Sarah, you will bare a son. Now fast forward to late second temple and think about what God said to Sarah about her notion of adoption. For me then the only thing that works is Yeshua must be of the blood-line of Abraham and that is in the sperm of the male, DNA counts, and must come from the seed of the woman - a daughter of Sarah even through a long way down the seed of seeds linage. Now I only present this for consideration and absolutely not for argumentation. Any one have a comment Clyde -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. From: "mhyde" Date: January 4, 2008 12:06:03 PM EST To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org James, Thanks for the reply. You pointed me in the direction, and like a bird dog on a pheasant, I will start searching. I understand the constraints on your time. I have always understood this. Publish when you can. marvin -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:25 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Good and complex question Marvin and I have lots to say but just no time...I will save it and try to get to it. But the short answer is "no," based on God choosing often the "low" or "despised" and raising it up, specifically regarding the "throne," see Ezekiel 21:25-27 in particular. Also, contrary to common opinion the "royal" lineage could pass via the mother/female. There has been a lot of work on this, much of it by the Israeli scholar Tal Ilan... Rushing... James On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:02 PM, mhyde wrote: James, You said: "Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," I agree with adoption and Yeshua legally being the son of Joseph, thus having the "Yeshua bar Yosef" title. But if the pregnancy out of wedlock is historical then would that not disqualify Yeshua from the throne of David? marvin -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Yeshua Tammy, just a few comments that may or may not get at what you are thinking here... There were (and are today) numerous descendants of David, any one of which could potentially qualify as "David's seed," and thus became a candidate for anointing as king/messiah if chosen by God or anointed by the Prophet. I am of the view that the genealogy Matthew provides is that of Joseph, while Luke gives Mary's genealogy. Many scholars disagree but I find this convincing as you know from my book. It also means that the bloodline went from David through Nathan, not through Solomon. Most scholars would say Joseph was Yeshua's father but I take the pregnancy out of wedlock as historical. When Joseph marries Miriam anyway, even pregnant with a child not his, he effectively "adopts" the child, thus Yeshua is legally called "Yeshua bar Yosef," as we see in John 1:45 and elsewhere. I am not sure I am getting at all you are asking though so please clarify if need be. Take care, James On Jan 3, 2008, at 2:28 PM, Tamara Michael wrote: I'm just curious since Yeshua was decended from two Davidic lines. Would he not of technically been a King anyway? I'm asking this because of the Ossuary that states. "Yeshua bar Yosef"" had Yosef been his father? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/c6d82b5e/attachment.html From rrstas at optonline.net Sun Jan 6 19:59:50 2008 From: rrstas at optonline.net (Raymond Selg) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:59:50 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? In-Reply-To: <010720080031.21058.478172E40009B48C0000524222218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <0JU9001L143WCPF0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Or like the way the girl in the movie My Cousin Vinny talked, well we don't speak quite like that here on Long Island. But it is fun to listen to that city accent. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:32 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? Another New Yorker, how 'bout dat! ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Raymond Selg : -------------- Tammy Either I did an intro early on or maybe not at all I dont even remember. Its nice to hear from you. Im in New York or actually I live on Long Island. Im not one of those city boys like Hanoch. Being that Im from up here I dont know any Tammys. I do now. Hows things on your end? Its cold up hear Ill tell you that much. Ray _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? Hey Raymond, Did I miss your introduction.......sorry if I did. Where are you from? I am from Alabama. It's always interesting for me to find out where we are all located. Thanks for your posts today. Shalom, Tammy Raymond Selg wrote: Someday! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land Very beautiful Rick. Someday man. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij : -------------- sorry, try again. On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: Thanks but whats the password? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-ds hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/dfae8494/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 6 21:18:55 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:18:55 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation! In-Reply-To: <200801061110.m06BAsHD020906@mail116c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <015601c850dc$0949fc50$643c66c9@bettygivin> Amen! And thank-you, Steve! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:11 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation! Pat and Betty and Kim, This is one of the most amazing confirmations I have ever seen! Things will work out, you are all in Good Hands, thank God, trust God, ask God... things will work out! We are all in the tube now!! Steve At 08:11 PM 1/4/2008, you wrote: Betty, this is so exciting! HaShem's Ruach HaKodesh is moving among us! I'm thrilled for Kim, and Steve, and Hanoch, and Dave........for ALL of us, but even more so for the phenomenom we are blessed to behold. We must continue to pray Psalm 126:4, "Restore our fortunes, O LORD, like the watercourses in the Negev." And we must continue to encourage one another by sharing what He is doing. Thank you so much for passing on Kim's confirmation of the shooting star that passed right in front of them. All glory be to HaShem!!!!! Love, Pat _____ From: bkgivin at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 21:05:33 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation! Steve, I just got off the phone with Kim. She is going to be off line for a few days and I wanted to read her the PR verses that you received for her, since I knew she would be unable to check email for several days. She was very thankful and appreciative, as they seemed so fitting to her situation. And she received what I would call a confirmation even before I called and read them to her! I read her both verses, Psa 142:7 and 147:2. I actually continued read the next few verses because I was not sure if the reference you gave was in the Hebrew version or not, and I wanted to make sure that she received the correct message. I used the Hebrew Bible. I first read Psa 142:7ff v.7 Attend to my cry for I am brought very low; deliver me from my persecutors; for they are stronger than v. 8 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may give thanks to thy name: the righteous shall crown themselves in me; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me. Then I read Psa 147:2ff v..2 The L-rd builds Yerushalayim; he gathers together the outcast of Yisrae'el. v.3. He heals the brokenhearted; and binds up their wounds. v. 4 "He counts the number of STARS; he CALLS THEM BY NAME. And after I read these verses, I told her that my understanding was that the same G-d who counts the number of stars and calls them by name is the same G-d who heals the brokenhearted and is going to deliver her from prison and deal bountifully with her! She then told me that just a short time before I called, that she and her husband had seen a SHOOTING STAR as they were driving down the road.that it came right in front of them! She was amazed and took this as a confirmation of these promises for her. Thank-you, Steve, for opening your heart up to Hashem to receive and for sharing with Kim. This meant so very much to her! Shabbat Shalom, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 6:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews addenda Kim, When I received the PR of 142:7, I could not resolve whether it was 142:7 or 147:2. Now I am sure that both apply, since on rereading your letter, you say that you think you are of "part of the tribes." Now I see that the PRs are confirming your situation and one is a prayer for your deliverance. . "God is waking us, Who will harken in the time to come?".... when our warfare-related "sentence" (Heb. "tzava" the sentence of being a prisoner of war that started with the defeat and captivity of the Northern Kingdom of Israel) will be up. (Isa. 42:23). This is an "appointed time," "Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion, for the time to favor her, yea the set time (Heb. moed) is come." (Psalm 102:13).See also Isa. 14;17, 42:22-23, 42:7, 40:2 Gang, perhaps, we are seeing a " new wave' God is working in waking His people.... I think so... let us offer sacrifices with our lips, on behalf of all of us, this Shabbat, (Hos. 14:2). He said He will dwell in the praises of Israel, let us so build the Mishkan of Prayers.... it is a sacred labor we con do on the Shabbat... Steve ********************************************************************** Dear Kim and all Returnees and Those Coming Near, Shabbat Shalom you-all, far and wide, I want to second Hanoch's recommendations re keeping the Shabbat. If you are in any of the above greeted groups, you are in /or will be pulled to "Torah faith," what we may call, not Judaism, not Christianity, or any other ism, but "The Way" of God, that He has prophesied via all the Prophets that we will be seeking. These "straight paths" [of the Torah] are prophesied to be restored to us; e.g. Isa. 40:3, Jer. 31:9, Mal. 3:1, and the Shabbat is certainly a major part of it. It is commanded in the OT, and we see it kept in the NT. I could just stop there and say "period." If you are pulled in that direction, you certainly should keep the Shabbat regardless of what anyone says, "Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; [Torah] fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings." (Isa. 51:7). If you have the Torah in your heart, you are one of God's "disciples:" "Bind up the testimony, seal the instruction / [Torah] among My disciples." --(Isa. 8:16). It will be kept in "the great Shabbat to come," after all it is a picture of that Messianic period. Here is a prayer [PR] I received about you: "Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me". --( Psalm 142:7). (You may also want o look up 147:2). May you be imbued with a special blessing for this Shabbat, and from now on. May you be guided by God's holy Spirit, and may you and your house come into Shabbat Shalom. Welcome to the congregation of the faithful, Steve At 12:39 PM 1/4/2008, you wrote: I do believe myself to be part of the tribes. I also believe in following my heart as far as lighting the candles, the Shabbat meal, etc. in my own home regardless of what Judah thinks. I just don't want to be offensive in their homes or in their synagogue. I'm considering going to a Conservative or Orthodox synagogue in New Orleans. While I enjoy listening to Ross and the fellowship of the Synagogue Without Walls, it is difficult for me to do this at home with all the distractions. I'm going to start listening at night when little one is in bed. One, if not both, of the synagogues have childcare/classes during the services. Kim On Jan 4, 2008 1:15 PM, wrote: Hey Kim - Now, in terms of your question, you raise a very important issue. Is there an obligation (as from a mitzvah - a commandment, either positive or negative) to say the Brachot (blessings) as though HaShem commanded you to light the Shabbat candles? Hmmmm.....this is both a tough one, and an easy one at the same time! Firstly, if you want to know what the typical "Orthodox" Rabbis (of which I am certainly NOT) would tell you - they would say 'no.' The typical advise even to someone undergoing conversion to Judaism is that they 'keep' Shabbat, but do one thing (this is starting to sound bizarre, right?) that would go against Jewish law (the laws of Shabbat). If you want a more detailed explanation, please write me directly. If it were me, (this is where I step into DEEP 'yogurt' with the Rabbis), I would say it with a Bracha if I believed I were descended from the 10 Northern Tribes - Ephraim. It's only in our generation that people are feeling driven to even DO this....so, I say, 'DO IT!' But Kim - remember also to focus on small steps - lighting candles (with the blessing), Kiddush (sanctification over wine or grape juice), the family meal, 'special' time with children. Don't be so worried about what some Jewish people think....Much of "Judah" in this country have never lit candles for Shabbat with, or without a blessing. My own brother has never consciously done a Mitzvah in his whole life.... Kim, you are part of a unique group, of people reaching out for 'Torah Faith' (I'm waiting for someone to come up with a catchier term...), who do NOT come from a Jewish background. It's time for us all to break some fresh ground, don't you think? Together....it starts with this Dialogue, and it will move forward from here.....but it WILL be 'together.' On another note: how are you today? Smile...I hear it's great therapy...I've even trying it myself! :-) :-) With wishes for a loving, restorative, restful Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/bc593cdd/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 6 21:42:07 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:42:07 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Moon, healing and Sabbath In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801060948i2e78440csbb3a9e513a533b6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <016101c850df$4711d820$643c66c9@bettygivin> Kim, this is very interesting. It would not be at all surprising considering the passage in Exodus when HaShem said that "none of these diseases" that came upon the Egyptians would come upon them. Does anyone else know about this? Love, Mom/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:48 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews Interesting tidbit, I have been scanning through Kevin Trudeu's book The Natural Cures They Don't Want You To Know About. I don't know anything about his religious beliefs, but he doesn't seem attest to one religion over another. He has a list of things to do in his book if you never want to be sick again. One of them was rest from Friday at sundown till Saturday at sundown. He says each week the moon cycles are in position to promote healing and rejuvenation int eh body. Resting during this time promotes the optimal rejuvenation of your cells. Kim On Jan 5, 2008 11:27 PM, Loy wrote: You are forgiven dear one.!!!! Have a very blessed week. Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews Dearest Leorah, I just used it as an example - but I take it all back if you (or anyone) it was a curse of any kind. I care TOO much for you......I would truly hate for something bad to happen to me - the last 12 months have already been, probably the worst year in my life, with the only exception of my mom's (Of Blessed Memory) death. So I repent, and take it back, truly... Keep writing - I love to hear from you!!! B'Ahavat Yisrael, Hanoch _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/253fda8f/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 6 22:22:24 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:22:24 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Sneeze ! In-Reply-To: <42AAEE9029BA4BAFB28F8FF267F9C3C5@DickLPC> Message-ID: <016c01c850e4$e79498a0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Very nice, Dick! Thanks! Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:11 AM To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Cc: Barbara Field; Pugs; alethea parker; RamonMiner1 at aol.com; TAMARA DESROCHERS; John Bay; Chuck Estano; DAWSON1865 at aol.com; Robert Whittier; Roger Verrill; Anita Colpitts; Paul Pollock; Edseadog at aol.com; mitch; sharonron; mary-bess donovan; Avi Zamites; walt Subject: [Dialogue] The Sneeze ! We can overcome all obstacles, can't we ?? Dick L. Subject: The Sneeze ! Excellent!! THE SNEEZE They walked in tandem, each of the ninety-two students filing into the already crowded auditorium. With their rich maroon gowns flowing ... and the traditional caps, they looked almost ... as grown up as they felt. Dads swallowed hard behind broad smiles, and Moms freely brushed away tears. This class would NOT pray during the commencements----not by choice, but because of a recent court ruling prohibiting it. The principal and several students were careful to stay within the guidelines allowed by the ruling. They gave inspirational and challenging speeches, but no one mentioned divine guidance and no one asked for blessings on the graduates or their families. The speeches were nice, but they were routine.....until the final speech received a standing ovation. A solitary student walked proudly to the microphone. He stood still and silent for just a moment, and then, ithappened. * All 92 students, every single one of them, suddenly SNEEZED!!!! The student on stage.. simply looked at the audience and said, "GOD BLESS YOU, each and every one of you!" And he walked off stage... The audience exploded into applause. This graduating class had found a unique way to invoke God's blessing on their future with or without the court's approval. Isn't this a wonderful story? Pass it on to all your friends.........and GOD BLESS YOU!!!! This is a true story; it happened at the University of Maryland . "Have A Nice Day" ~ _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/59eb8bc7/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 6 22:32:31 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:32:31 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: <98B27DA7-B6C6-4293-8653-CF0D410FEE53@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <017d01c850e6$51afb930$643c66c9@bettygivin> Rick, how beautiful! Thank-you so much. Each year at Passover, I say, "Next year in Yerushalayim!" It hasn't yet come to pass, but one day, I know that it will! Would you mind telling us a little bit about how you grew up and when you came to the U.S? I am assuming that you spent some years in Israel? Thanks, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/c5e1f8fe/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jan 6 23:31:30 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 00:31:30 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation! Message-ID: Yes, thank you, Steve, for the words of encouragement. We are all in this together, and I love all our family on this list. May our numbers grow! I can't think of a better group to be in the tube with! It's a good thing God has very big hands!!! Pat From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation!Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:18:55 -0600 Amen! And thank-you, Steve! Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve MatheSent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:11 AMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation! Pat and Betty and Kim, This is one of the most amazing confirmations I have ever seen! Things will work out, you are all in Good Hands, thank God, trust God, ask God... things will work out!We are all in the tube now!!Steve At 08:11 PM 1/4/2008, you wrote: Betty, this is so exciting! HaShem's Ruach HaKodesh is moving among us! I'm thrilled for Kim, and Steve, and Hanoch, and Dave........for ALL of us, but even more so for the phenomenom we are blessed to behold. We must continue to pray Psalm 126:4, "Restore our fortunes, O LORD, like the watercourses in the Negev." And we must continue to encourage one another by sharing what He is doing. Thank you so much for passing on Kim's confirmation of the shooting star that passed right in front of them. All glory be to HaShem!!!!! Love, Pat From: bkgivin at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 21:05:33 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Steve PR for Kim - Confirmation! Steve, I just got off the phone with Kim. She is going to be off line for a few days and I wanted to read her the PR verses that you received for her, since I knew she would be unable to check email for several days. She was very thankful and appreciative, as they seemed so fitting to her situation. And she received what I would call a confirmation even before I called and read them to her! I read her both verses, Psa 142:7 and 147:2. I actually continued read the next few verses because I was not sure if the reference you gave was in the Hebrew version or not, and I wanted to make sure that she received the correct message. I used the Hebrew Bible. I first read Psa 142:7ff v.7 Attend to my cry for I am brought very low; deliver me from my persecutors; for they are stronger than v. 8 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may give thanks to thy name: the righteous shall crown themselves in me; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me. Then I read Psa 147:2ff v..2 The L-rd builds Yerushalayim; he gathers together the outcast of Yisrae?el. v.3. He heals the brokenhearted; and binds up their wounds. v. 4 ?He counts the number of STARS; he CALLS THEM BY NAME. And after I read these verses, I told her that my understanding was that the same G-d who counts the number of stars and calls them by name is the same G-d who heals the brokenhearted and is going to deliver her from prison and deal bountifully with her! She then told me that just a short time before I called, that she and her husband had seen a SHOOTING STAR as they were driving down the road?that it came right in front of them! She was amazed and took this as a confirmation of these promises for her. Thank-you, Steve, for opening your heart up to Hashem to receive and for sharing with Kim. This meant so very much to her! Shabbat Shalom, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 6:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Sabbath for non-Jews addenda Kim, When I received the PR of 142:7, I could not resolve whether it was 142:7 or 147:2. Now I am sure that both apply, since on rereading your letter, you say that you think you are of "part of the tribes." Now I see that the PRs are confirming your situation and one is a prayer for your deliverance. . "God is waking us, Who will harken in the time to come?".... when our warfare-related "sentence" (Heb. "tzava" the sentence of being a prisoner of war that started with the defeat and captivity of the Northern Kingdom of Israel) will be up. (Isa. 42:23). This is an "appointed time," "Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion, for the time to favor her, yea the set time (Heb. moed) is come." (Psalm 102:13).See also Isa. 14;17, 42:22-23, 42:7, 40:2 Gang, perhaps, we are seeing a " new wave' God is working in waking His people.... I think so... let us offer sacrifices with our lips, on behalf of all of us, this Shabbat, (Hos. 14:2). He said He will dwell in the praises of Israel, let us so build the Mishkan of Prayers.... it is a sacred labor we con do on the Shabbat... Steve ********************************************************************** Dear Kim and all Returnees and Those Coming Near, Shabbat Shalom you-all, far and wide, I want to second Hanoch's recommendations re keeping the Shabbat. If you are in any of the above greeted groups, you are in /or will be pulled to "Torah faith," what we may call, not Judaism, not Christianity, or any other ism, but "The Way" of God, that He has prophesied via all the Prophets that we will be seeking. These "straight paths" [of the Torah] are prophesied to be restored to us; e.g. Isa. 40:3, Jer. 31:9, Mal. 3:1, and the Shabbat is certainly a major part of it. It is commanded in the OT, and we see it kept in the NT. I could just stop there and say "period." If you are pulled in that direction, you certainly should keep the Shabbat regardless of what anyone says, "Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; [Torah] fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings." (Isa. 51:7). If you have the Torah in your heart, you are one of God's "disciples:" "Bind up the testimony, seal the instruction / [Torah] among My disciples." --(Isa. 8:16). It will be kept in "the great Shabbat to come," after all it is a picture of that Messianic period. Here is a prayer [PR] I received about you: "Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me". --( Psalm 142:7). (You may also want o look up 147:2). May you be imbued with a special blessing for this Shabbat, and from now on. May you be guided by God's holy Spirit, and may you and your house come into Shabbat Shalom. Welcome to the congregation of the faithful, Steve At 12:39 PM 1/4/2008, you wrote: I do believe myself to be part of the tribes. I also believe in following my heart as far as lighting the candles, the Shabbat meal, etc. in my own home regardless of what Judah thinks. I just don't want to be offensive in their homes or in their synagogue. I'm considering going to a Conservative or Orthodox synagogue in New Orleans. While I enjoy listening to Ross and the fellowship of the Synagogue Without Walls, it is difficult for me to do this at home with all the distractions. I'm going to start listening at night when little one is in bed. One, if not both, of the synagogues have childcare/classes during the services. Kim On Jan 4, 2008 1:15 PM, wrote: Hey Kim - Now, in terms of your question, you raise a very important issue. Is there an obligation (as from a mitzvah - a commandment, either positive or negative) to say the Brachot (blessings) as though HaShem commanded you to light the Shabbat candles? Hmmmm.....this is both a tough one, and an easy one at the same time! Firstly, if you want to know what the typical "Orthodox" Rabbis (of which I am certainly NOT) would tell you - they would say 'no.' The typical advise even to someone undergoing conversion to Judaism is that they 'keep' Shabbat, but do one thing (this is starting to sound bizarre, right?) that would go against Jewish law (the laws of Shabbat). If you want a more detailed explanation, please write me directly. If it were me, (this is where I step into DEEP 'yogurt' with the Rabbis), I would say it with a Bracha if I believed I were descended from the 10 Northern Tribes - Ephraim. It's only in our generation that people are feeling driven to even DO this....so, I say, 'DO IT!' But Kim - remember also to focus on small steps - lighting candles (with the blessing), Kiddush (sanctification over wine or grape juice), the family meal, 'special' time with children. Don't be so worried about what some Jewish people think....Much of "Judah" in this country have never lit candles for Shabbat with, or without a blessing. My own brother has never consciously done a Mitzvah in his whole life.... Kim, you are part of a unique group, of people reaching out for 'Torah Faith' (I'm waiting for someone to come up with a catchier term...), who do NOT come from a Jewish background. It's time for us all to break some fresh ground, don't you think? Together....it starts with this Dialogue, and it will move forward from here.....but it WILL be 'together.' On another note: how are you today? Smile...I hear it's great therapy...I've even trying it myself! :-) :-) With wishes for a loving, restorative, restful Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/6b748e8a/attachment.html From paul at cometozion.org Mon Jan 7 00:14:21 2008 From: paul at cometozion.org (Paul) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:14:21 +0200 Subject: [Dialogue] For Rick G Message-ID: <000501c850f4$9203e430$7001a8c0@Graphics1> Shalom Rick Please contact me. Blessings In HIS service, All day Everyday Paul Sherbow Director Come to Zion Ministries Inspiredfaith Broadcasting www.cometozion.org www.inspiredfaith.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/601811a5/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 7 06:31:52 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:31:52 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, This is a great pasuk (verse) - have a wonderful day! Hanoch By Hashem are a man's footsteps established and He shall favor his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for Hashem holds his hand. Psalm 37:23-24 **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/f479f090/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Mon Jan 7 11:15:43 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen Dennis) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:15:43 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet References: Message-ID: <002e01c85150$efcad4a0$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Thanks for this verse! I have just handed in my application to do some study later in the year (nursing), after being at home with my 4 children for years. (oldest is 24 and youngest is 14 yrs old). I am nervous and hesitant to venture out into anything, and am really committing my way to HaShem, that He may establish my footsteps. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:31 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, This is a great pasuk (verse) - have a wonderful day! Hanoch By Hashem are a man's footsteps established and He shall favor his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for Hashem holds his hand. Psalm 37:23-24 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/040e940d/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Mon Jan 7 11:39:25 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:39:25 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet References: <002e01c85150$efcad4a0$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Message-ID: <03db01c85154$3fac7a70$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Sharon, I sooo know the feeling. I did that at 50 yrs of age after never (almost) having worked (HA HA HA outside the home that is) and without an education(stopped my education to have a family). Don't worry....HaShem is supurb at opening doors and holding your hand when no one is there to do it. I had 5 daughters and my oldest was 30 and youngest 19. Just trust in the one who "has it all in the palm of His hand". I will be lifting you up. He IS well able to do ALL things. Love and Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Dennis To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet Thanks for this verse! I have just handed in my application to do some study later in the year (nursing), after being at home with my 4 children for years. (oldest is 24 and youngest is 14 yrs old). I am nervous and hesitant to venture out into anything, and am really committing my way to HaShem, that He may establish my footsteps. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:31 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, This is a great pasuk (verse) - have a wonderful day! Hanoch By Hashem are a man's footsteps established and He shall favor his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for Hashem holds his hand. Psalm 37:23-24 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/de309ae1/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Mon Jan 7 11:43:57 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen Dennis) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:43:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! Message-ID: <004b01c85154$e1516610$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Hi everyone, Thought I'd pass on a recent photo of Stephen and I, taken outside our house this past week. Since then we have had another 40cm+ of snow, but today it is melting somewhat as the temp. has gone up to +6C. The snow looks so beautiful, and still fascinates me, after growing up in sunny Cape Town, South Africa! I'm not fond of the ice though, which will probably begin forming as the melt refreezes - I seem to slip and slide more than others! (I sometimes feel like making a t-shirt saying "I'm not from 'round these parts, eh", as a good excuse for slipping!) Sharon http://picasaweb.google.com/Strider1000/StephenSharonWinter2008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/55de5b37/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Mon Jan 7 11:47:39 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:47:39 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet References: <002e01c85150$efcad4a0$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Message-ID: <03e501c85155$662b4180$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Sharon, I forgot to add that I went into the Medical Field also...became a HHA?CNA?Hospice worker....after deciding against nursing after assisting in cleaning decubitus ulcers....almost to the bone. I had to leave the room after becoming light headed! Surely glad I took that route ....first.....to test the waters before I wasted time and money becoming a nurse and then not following through. I had taken a 3 wk course at the Red Cross to begin with. Hope this may be of help. Love, Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Dennis To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet Thanks for this verse! I have just handed in my application to do some study later in the year (nursing), after being at home with my 4 children for years. (oldest is 24 and youngest is 14 yrs old). I am nervous and hesitant to venture out into anything, and am really committing my way to HaShem, that He may establish my footsteps. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:31 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, This is a great pasuk (verse) - have a wonderful day! Hanoch By Hashem are a man's footsteps established and He shall favor his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for Hashem holds his hand. Psalm 37:23-24 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/86082cf3/attachment.html From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 12:13:53 2008 From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:13:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! Message-ID: <70590.67503.qm@web44902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> A little too much snow for me :-) thanks for the pics Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: Stephen Dennis To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 11:43:57 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! Hi everyone, Thought I'd pass on a recent photo of Stephen and I, taken outside our house this past week. Since then we have had another 40cm+ of snow, but today it is melting somewhat as the temp. has gone up to +6C. The snow looks so beautiful, and still fascinates me, after growing up in sunny Cape Town, South Africa! I'm not fond of the ice though, which will probably begin forming as the melt refreezes - I seem to slip and slide more than others! (I sometimes feel like making a t-shirt saying "I'm not from 'round these parts, eh", as a good excuse for slipping!) Sharon http://picasaweb.google.com/Strider1000/StephenSharonWinter2008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/d91c6f5a/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 7 12:43:01 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:43:01 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet In-Reply-To: <03db01c85154$3fac7a70$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <003601c8515d$21cab400$643c66c9@bettygivin> Sharon, Loy and all, It seems that a number of us have been this scenario with work! I went back to school when my youngest was five. We registered for school the same day.she for kindergarten and me for college to finish up my degree. I too had apprehensions, but thru the grace of HaShem and some hard work on my part, I made it thru. Then at age 50, (after losing pretty much everything we had.another story), I had to change careers, and now over a decade later, having been laid off from my job except for a total of about 6 weeks this past year, I am "out there" on a limb again looking for a job when many people my age are looking at retirement. But through it all, as you attested, Loy, I know that HaShem holds us in the palm of His hand. I too will lift you up Sharon and ask that you will be provided with the schooling you need for what you want to do. My youngest daughter, the one who I registered for kindergarten when I started back to school, is a nurse, and loves it. I could not do what she does. We all have gifts in certain areas. I pray that you will find yours. May you be blessed with shalom on this the 2nd day of Sabbath, Betty/Elisheva P.S. I loved your pictures BTW! The snow is beautiful, but having lived in it for many years in Pennsylvania, Missouri and Minnesota, I will stay with the pictures! Thanks for sending. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Loy Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 11:39 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet Sharon, I sooo know the feeling. I did that at 50 yrs of age after never (almost) having worked (HA HA HA outside the home that is) and without an education(stopped my education to have a family). Don't worry....HaShem is supurb at opening doors and holding your hand when no one is there to do it. I had 5 daughters and my oldest was 30 and youngest 19. Just trust in the one who "has it all in the palm of His hand". I will be lifting you up. He IS well able to do ALL things. Love and Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Dennis To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet Thanks for this verse! I have just handed in my application to do some study later in the year (nursing), after being at home with my 4 children for years. (oldest is 24 and youngest is 14 yrs old). I am nervous and hesitant to venture out into anything, and am really committing my way to HaShem, that He may establish my footsteps. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:31 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, This is a great pasuk (verse) - have a wonderful day! Hanoch By Hashem are a man's footsteps established and He shall favor his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for Hashem holds his hand. Psalm 37:23-24 _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/c32d330e/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Mon Jan 7 13:20:43 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen Dennis) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:20:43 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Thanks Message-ID: <003001c85162$6701b870$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Dear Loy and Betty and all, Thanks for the encouragement- it really does feel special to have people say such kind things, and offer to remember one in prayer! Loy, I know what you mean by feeling faint at the sight of some medical situations! I actually did nursing when I first left school, but did not complete the course due to circumstances at the time. Thankfully, I seem able to put on my nurse-clinical hat, and function when required to. Betty, I pray that you too will find something that will meet your needs. We have different aspirations and motivations than most around us, and He knows our hearts. Shalom, Sharon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/fbacef53/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 7 13:21:39 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:21:39 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Jerusalem Rabbis Message-ID: <006401c85162$8787fbe0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Received this just this morning and thought some of you might want to cast your vote as every vote counts! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: Jerusalem Prayer Team [mailto:jerusalemprayerteam at donationnet.net] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 1:04 PM To: bkgivin at charter.net Subject: Jerusalem Rabbis Because of the marvelous response of over 100,000 appealing to President Bush to not divide Jerusalem, Rabbis in Jerusalem have contacted me, have humbly appealed that the Jerusalem Prayer Team would not stop this campaign but would continue it until a million lovers of Jerusalem signed the Petition to President Bush. We have pledged that they will pray at the Kotel, the Western Wall. One of the Rabbis came from the Soviet Union and said that many years ago one million Americans united in a petition called "Let My People Go" to the President of the United States, Ronald Reagan, to appeal to Gorbachev to let one million Russian Jews go home to Israel. A television special and book by the same name were also written. I appealed to President Reagan if he would ask Mikhail Gorbachev to release the Russian dissidents - specifically Natan Sharansky - and open the doors for Russian Jews to go back to Israel. Ronald Reagan did just that. Since those days, one million Russian Jews have returned to the Land of Israel as the prayer of their lips "Next year in Jerusalem," came true. Sharansky left his cold prison cell with a small book of Psalms and a Yarmulke. The skull cap, Yarmulke, was made from the rags around the feet of a Pentecostal pastor who shared his cell with him one evening when he slept. The pastor gave it to him so that he could celebrate the Passover. To this very day Natan Sharansky wears that Yarmulke on Yom Kippur and during the Passover. Would you say yes? I told the Rabbis that I would ask you as a Jerusalem Prayer Team member to vote and tell us if you will agree to be part of the campaign that they are asking for - the Million Vote Campaign. I cannot commit to do this without you. I need your blessing. If you and two or three of your friends sign the petition in the next 48 hours, I will know you are in support of it. It may take several months to reach the One Million but we already have 100,000 signatures. If each person just gets ten friends to sign the petition, we will have the One Million. Vote your opinion now. If you have friends that don't have access to the internet, please print a copy and have them sign it and mail it in. To read the Jerusalem World News, click here: www.myjwn.com _____ Join the Jerusalem Prayer Team Now! Do not reply to this email. Please address email inquiries to jpteam at sbcglobal.net Jerusalem Prayer Team P.O. Box 210489 Bedford, TX 76095 FAX: 817-285-0962 1-800-825-3872 http://jerusalemprayerteam.org Dr. Tim LaHaye, Mrs. Anne Graham Lotz, Mr. Pat Boone, Mr. Bill McCartney, Ms. Kay Arthur, Rev. Tommy Tenney, Dr. A.R. Bernard, and Dr. Jay Sekulow are just a few of the more than 300 Christian Leaders who are part of the Jerusalem Prayer Team. The Jerusalem Prayer Team is a non-profit organization with 501c3 tax exempt status. The Jerusalem Prayer Team is a prayer movement of people around the world. It is a non-denominational organization. It receives no support from the Nation of Israel. Donations are tax deductible. The mission of the Jerusalem Prayer Team: To guard, defend and protect the Jewish people and Eretz Yisrael until Israel is secure, and until the Redeemer comes to Zion. How do I discontinue my membership/subscription to this e-mail list? Do not respond to this e-mail for any reason. To discontinue your membership automatically please, follow the link below. You joined this list as Betty Givin at the following e-mail address: bkgivin at charter.net. You must use the correct e-mail address to discontinue your membership. If you experience any technical problems and/or do not receive confirmation that your request has been completed online, please postal mail, phone or fax your request using the contact information listed above. Your request will be processed within 10 days of the receipt of your request. _____ HOW CAN I SUPPORT YOUR ORGANIZATION? Make a secure online credit card donation. _____ HOW CAN I TELL OTHERS ABOUT YOUR ORGANIZATION? Send a personalized version of this message to your friends. Discontinue your subscription. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/62eec47f/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Mon Jan 7 13:23:56 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen Dennis) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:23:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! References: <70590.67503.qm@web44902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004801c85162$d90c0e70$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> I agree Rick - your photos are really where I would like to be. But, for now... Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Gozhanskij To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! A little too much snow for me :-) thanks for the pics Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: Stephen Dennis To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 11:43:57 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! Hi everyone, Thought I'd pass on a recent photo of Stephen and I, taken outside our house this past week. Since then we have had another 40cm+ of snow, but today it is melting somewhat as the temp. has gone up to +6C. The snow looks so beautiful, and still fascinates me, after growing up in sunny Cape Town, South Africa! I'm not fond of the ice though, which will probably begin forming as the melt refreezes - I seem to slip and slide more than others! (I sometimes feel like making a t-shirt saying "I'm not from 'round these parts, eh", as a good excuse for slipping!) Sharon http://picasaweb.google.com/Strider1000/StephenSharonWinter2008 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/6eaa8537/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Mon Jan 7 13:49:57 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:49:57 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Land In-Reply-To: <98B27DA7-B6C6-4293-8653-CF0D410FEE53@yahoo.com> References: <0JU800FN4SVT5F90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <98B27DA7-B6C6-4293-8653-CF0D410FEE53@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52A001891ADF4BE5AAB2530DD3CF193A@DickLPC> Very nice pics. I have a few of the same, in 86 though. Dick L I'm not sure but I might have the very rock that David threw at G---------. I better quit while ahead????? Subject: R: [Dialogue] The Land I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from my home Land Israel. http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/4cd24f1f/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Mon Jan 7 14:10:35 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:10:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] ] came across this... In-Reply-To: <0JU800KPSV8U8960@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0JU800KPSV8U8960@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: I met David in 86 while we were on the dig with Vendyl Jones. I think that November was my first visit to the Conferences in Tennessee. The conferences stopped when David's daughter passed away, I think in 04? James found us in 90. Great times we had in our beginnings. We were learning a Hebraic understanding of the Bible & of course the 7 laws of Noah. If it wasn't for hearing a few tapes of Vendyl's talks on the South West radio program I'd still be searching in different denominations for something to make sense. I spent a year in Vendyl's book learning a different angle (Hebraic) to the NT. Being Catholic we never read the Bible so to speak but they told us what we believed. What a change it was for me. I'm not a study er but I still hang around & listen alot. I live in the Southern part of Maine 15 mi South of Portland. Lots of snow this yr. Town of Saco. A few miles from Old Orchard Beach or 3 miles from the Atlantic as the crow fly's. Enjoying you all. Dick L > All > > I have another one. In the beginning (the Noahide thing) we also found > out > about J David. So we call him up and talked to him and he was very > gracious > to us and after we hung up with him my friend turns to me and asked me > what > I thought. Now you have to understand this was very early on with this > movement. The Rabbi's we talked to thought we were the only ones in the > world. Ok so I think for a moment after our conversation on the phone > with > J David and finding out about his group and I reply, no way there's a > whole > bunch of people doing what we are doing. I wasn't sure what we were > doing. > > Ray > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:34 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > All > > Just a thought. > When I first started out with the Noahide thing my friend and I found out > about this guy, his name was Dr. Lawrence Corey from California. We meet > him once at JFK while he was on his way somewhere. And he told us that > his > research found that those who went from Christianity to being a Noahide > those people had a jump in paycheck or found a better job or something > like > that. At the time I was working at Republic airport and about two years > later the company I worked for, Fairchild Republic went out of business. > Well so much for research. > > Ray > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:57 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > I just remembered that when I first started out with the Noahide thing The > Jewish Press would not take an advertisement that I wanted to print and > pay > for to make known our existence. But that was more than a decade and a > half > ago. Ray > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Selg > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:50 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... > > > Actually, that's pretty cool. Ray > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:16 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... > > Say Ray ! When the Jerusalem Post called from Israel to > have me purchase there paper, the lady asked if I was a Christian? I told > her NO, I'm a B nai Noah, she exclaimed , OH! Your one of US. So they do > know we are out there. I was impressed, really. Dick L > > >> Thanks Ray, >> >> That helps shine some light on the issues for me. >> >> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Raymond Selg >> >> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:50:42 >> To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] came across this... >> >> >> John, >> >> About the Rabbi's and "The Lost Sheep or Tribes of Israel." Going over to >> a Rabbi and saying hello I'm a Noahide generally will get the response >> that's nice good luck. Going to a Rabbi and saying hello I'm Israel might >> just get the response the nut house is down the block. Within the various >> Jewish groups there is no standard or fundamental belief that I have >> found. There are those who would not except gentiles as Israel and added >> to that the possibility they may not want to convert to Judah but remain >> Israel. There is a view that the "Lost Tribes" are altogether and living >> somewhere on earth in hiding and will one day show themselves. But >> Gentiles X Christians, good luck with that one. I think when they >> (Israel) > >> start to show up in mass numbers the Rabbi's and the Jewish people will >> have to deal with it. The fact that they come in defense of the Jewish >> people and the Land will help. >> >> Ray >> >> >> >> ---------------- >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of >> carlson_john at bellsouth.net >> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:52 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... >> >> >> I like the sign by the Verrazano Bridge that says Welcome to Brooklyn, >> Population - Four Million. They left out the "stacked on top of each >> other" part. It's the sign they used to show on Welcome Back Kotter. >> >> >> >> Thanks for the feedback, you know the old saying, "you can take the boy >> out of New York but you can't take the New York out of the boy". Believe >> it or not though I was made an honorary Southerner years ago to my great >> pleasure. So when people ask me where I'm from I just say South Brooklyn. >> >> >> >> I have been thinking about the subject of your question. I am in >> agreement > >> with what the other have written so far. I have not had much recent >> interaction with Jewish folks (other than yourself, Rick and a couple of >> people I've met through UIWU) that I can judge by. So what I have to say >> is more of a perception than anything else. Awhile ago Dave, Sherry, >> Carin > >> and I went to a Refromed Synagogue in Baton Rouge just for the >> experience. > >> It was a beautiful service and to my surprise I understood most of it >> although I didn't really have much background in Hebrew to speak of. The >> thing that struck me the most though was that even though we went out of >> our was to be deferrant and humble towards the folks that we met there, >> the only ones that even paid any attention to us were the other visitors. >> Even the Rabbi completely ignored us. We have been having much discussion >> on this dialogue regarding the call on Ephraim and the return o f the >> lost > >> tribes. But the problem I see is that Ephriam and Judah have a really >> long > >> row to hoe yet if Judah will not open thier arms to those who are >> honestly > >> seeking. Believe me I am not naive, I know that Christianity has done >> much > >> damage in that area and it is not unexpected that Judah will be cautious, >> rightly so. But it seems to me that those of Judah who understand the >> prophesies would know that the returnee's will look much different (in >> spirit) than the "traditional Chrisitians", and would be seeking them >> out, > >> not turning them away. >> >> >> >> Maybe I am shortsighted in this area, as I said I don't know many >> religious Jews. But that is what I see. To put it in a nutshell, has >> there > >> been any discussion at all amongst the Rabbinical Leadership regarding >> what a "Lost Sheep of Israel" looks like and what to do with us or is the >> attitude that of the faithful brother of the prodigal son? >> >> >> >> ;-{)} >> >> >> >> -- >> John C. >> >> "Be excellent to each other!" >> Bill and Ted >> >> -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- >> >> Hey Sherry - >> >> John just did a better job then I did, and he left all the 'ideology' >> out > >> of it! Great job John! Man, you can tell this guy is New York City born >> and bred, huh? :-) Hey today's only a 13 hour day at work, since we are >> hosting a performance of the Harlem Wizards (a cheaper version of the >> famed Harlem Globetrotters), so I will try to get online a bit more, >> later. >> >> But one thing John, in all seriousness - is there something that you >> think that "Jewish people" can do to help people involved in this Torah >> faith movement? We kind of danced around this on a previous posting, and >> I'm trying to gather as much info and suggestions as I possibly can. Even >> if it's not YOUR view, but something you've heard - please share. >> >> Thanks pal, from the boro that actually has signs, as your leaving it, >> that say: "Leaving Brooklyn, Fuggedaboutit!" >> >> Hanoch >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Sent: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:10 pm >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] came across this... >> >> >> Hey Sherry, >> >> >> >> If I may Hanoch, Artscroll is a publication company that specializes in >> translations of Jewish literature like prayer books. Joe uses them alot >> and Ross has been speaking about some excerpts he has gotten from one he >> has been reading. Many of the publications are interlear which makes them >> very useful to those learning Hebrew. >> >> >> >> -- >> John C. >> >> "Be excellent to each other!" >> Bill and Ted >> >> -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" > >: -------------- >> >> Shalom Hanoch, >> >> Excuse my ignorance - what is the ArtScroll? >> >> Blessings, Sherry >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: YoungBarzel at aol.com >> >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:07 AM >> >> Subject: [Dialogue] came across this... >> >> >> >> Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, >> >> >> >> Okay, although I am starting to believe there's no such thing as >> 'coincidence' - I dropped a volume of the Prophets twice, and noted which >> pages they were. It was the ArtScroll edition of Volume 1 of the Trei >> Asar - the twelve 'minor prophets.' Personally, I am not a big ArtScroll >> fan, philosophically, we have huge differences between us. >> >> >> >> Having said that, if you can read it 'selectively,' it's not so terrible. >> Well this is what I came up with, and no it wasn't a personal revelation, >> just something I happened to stumble across, both from Hosea. Not sure if >> it's particularly significant right now, but wanted to share it with the >> group: >> >> Hanoch >> >> >> >> Hosea 11:7-8 >> >> "And My people waiver [as] to [their] return to Me; and to the One Above >> they call them; together they do not exalt [Him]. How can I give you over >> Ephraim [or] deliver you, Israel; how can I render you like Adamah [or] >> make you like Zeboyim? My heart has been turned over; My mercies have >> been > >> kindled." >> >> >> >> Hosea 7:8-11 >> >> "Ephraim is intermingled with the nations, Ephraim was [like] a cake >> which > >> was not turned over. Strangers have consumed his strength but he did not >> know, also old age was cast upon him but he did not know. And the glory >> of > >> Israel was humbled before him, but they did not seek Him despite all >> this. > >> And Ephraim was like the foolish dove with no understanding; they have >> called to Egypt; they have gone to Assyria." >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------- >> >> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. >> >> >> ---------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> ---------------- >> >> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 7 14:26:59 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:26:59 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00a101c8516b$a80e0220$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thanks, Hanoch. I just had a minute to check out this website and it is so good what this fund is doing for the victims of terror. We hear so much about victims of terror not only in Israel, but assassinations in Pakistan, and mindless shootings in our country, it is hard not to become insensitive, not consciously of course.but just not take a lot to heart because it is happening all over our globe. It is looking at websites such as this one that can give that personal touch that we need to get in touch with real people and real feelings of how horrible and difficult it must be to be faced with situations such as this.this baseless hatred must be battled with baseless love. Thanks again and shalom, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:03 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror Shalom to all - The One Family Fund does wonderful work for the victims of terror. Please pass this around, and see if we can help those who need our help... Hanoch Click here: OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the Shattered Lives of Israel's Terror Victims _____ See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/37ebe8c2/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 16:21:52 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:21:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! In-Reply-To: <004b01c85154$e1516610$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Message-ID: <501085.14755.qm@web57108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi Sharon, The snow is beautiful! Living in Alabama, we rarely ever see snow and when we do it doesn't last very long. Guess what.....our temperature today was a high of 76 degrees. This is strange to say the least. Thanks for sharing the pictures with us!! Shalom, Tammy Stephen Dennis wrote: Hi everyone, Thought I'd pass on a recent photo of Stephen and I, taken outside our house this past week. Since then we have had another 40cm+ of snow, but today it is melting somewhat as the temp. has gone up to +6C. The snow looks so beautiful, and still fascinates me, after growing up in sunny Cape Town, South Africa! I'm not fond of the ice though, which will probably begin forming as the melt refreezes - I seem to slip and slide more than others! (I sometimes feel like making a t-shirt saying "I'm not from 'round these parts, eh", as a good excuse for slipping!) Sharon http://picasaweb.google.com/Strider1000/StephenSharonWinter2008 _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/7a09c0ca/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 17:36:10 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:36:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Jerusalem Rabbis In-Reply-To: <006401c85162$8787fbe0$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <006401c85162$8787fbe0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: Let's hope our votes will be heard! Thank you, Betty ~ From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:21:39 -0600Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Jerusalem Rabbis Received this just this morning and thought some of you might want to cast your vote as every vote counts! Betty/Elisheva From: Jerusalem Prayer Team [mailto:jerusalemprayerteam at donationnet.net] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 1:04 PMTo: bkgivin at charter.netSubject: Jerusalem Rabbis Because of the marvelous response of over 100,000 appealing to President Bush to not divide Jerusalem, Rabbis in Jerusalem have contacted me, have humbly appealed that the Jerusalem Prayer Team would not stop this campaign but would continue it until a million lovers of Jerusalem signed the Petition to President Bush. We have pledged that they will pray at the Kotel, the Western Wall. One of the Rabbis came from the Soviet Union and said that many years ago one million Americans united in a petition called ?Let My People Go? to the President of the United States, Ronald Reagan, to appeal to Gorbachev to let one million Russian Jews go home to Israel. A television special and book by the same name were also written. I appealed to President Reagan if he would ask Mikhail Gorbachev to release the Russian dissidents ? specifically Natan Sharansky ? and open the doors for Russian Jews to go back to Israel. Ronald Reagan did just that. Since those days, one million Russian Jews have returned to the Land of Israel as the prayer of their lips ?Next year in Jerusalem,? came true. Sharansky left his cold prison cell with a small book of Psalms and a Yarmulke. The skull cap, Yarmulke, was made from the rags around the feet of a Pentecostal pastor who shared his cell with him one evening when he slept. The pastor gave it to him so that he could celebrate the Passover. To this very day Natan Sharansky wears that Yarmulke on Yom Kippur and during the Passover. Would you say yes? I told the Rabbis that I would ask you as a Jerusalem Prayer Team member to vote and tell us if you will agree to be part of the campaign that they are asking for ? the Million Vote Campaign. I cannot commit to do this without you. I need your blessing. If you and two or three of your friends sign the petition in the next 48 hours, I will know you are in support of it. It may take several months to reach the One Million but we already have 100,000 signatures. If each person just gets ten friends to sign the petition, we will have the One Million. Vote your opinion now. If you have friends that don?t have access to the internet, please print a copy and have them sign it and mail it in. To read the Jerusalem World News, click here: www.myjwn.com Join the Jerusalem Prayer Team Now! Do not reply to this email. Please address email inquiries to jpteam at sbcglobal.net Jerusalem Prayer TeamP.O. Box 210489Bedford, TX 76095FAX: 817-285-09621-800-825-3872http://jerusalemprayerteam.org Dr. Tim LaHaye, Mrs. Anne Graham Lotz, Mr. Pat Boone, Mr. Bill McCartney, Ms. Kay Arthur, Rev. Tommy Tenney, Dr. A.R. Bernard, and Dr. Jay Sekulow are just a few of the more than 300 Christian Leaders who are part of the Jerusalem Prayer Team. The Jerusalem Prayer Team is a non-profit organization with 501c3 tax exempt status. The Jerusalem Prayer Team is a prayer movement of people around the world. It is a non-denominational organization. It receives no support from the Nation of Israel. Donations are tax deductible. The mission of the Jerusalem Prayer Team: To guard, defend and protect the Jewish people and Eretz Yisrael until Israel is secure, and until the Redeemer comes to Zion. How do I discontinue my membership/subscription to this e-mail list? Do not respond to this e-mail for any reason. To discontinue your membership automatically please, follow the link below. You joined this list as Betty Givin at the following e-mail address: bkgivin at charter.net. You must use the correct e-mail address to discontinue your membership. If you experience any technical problems and/or do not receive confirmation that your request has been completed online, please postal mail, phone or fax your request using the contact information listed above. Your request will be processed within 10 days of the receipt of your request. HOW CAN I SUPPORT YOUR ORGANIZATION?Make a secure online credit card donation. HOW CAN I TELL OTHERS ABOUT YOUR ORGANIZATION?Send a personalized version of this message to your friends.Discontinue your subscription. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/9abf9f1e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 17:43:16 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:43:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! In-Reply-To: <004b01c85154$e1516610$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> References: <004b01c85154$e1516610$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Message-ID: Wow, Sharon! That's beautiful! (Glad I'm not there though....tooooooo cold!!!!) Pat From: shdennis at rogers.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:43:57 -0400Subject: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! Hi everyone, Thought I'd pass on a recent photo of Stephen and I, taken outside our house this past week. Since then we have had another 40cm+ of snow, but today it is melting somewhat as the temp. has gone up to +6C. The snow looks so beautiful, and still fascinates me, after growing up in sunny Cape Town, South Africa! I'm not fond of the ice though, which will probably begin forming as the melt refreezes - I seem to slip and slide more than others! (I sometimes feel like making a t-shirt saying "I'm not from 'round these parts, eh", as a good excuse for slipping!) Sharon http://picasaweb.google.com/Strider1000/StephenSharonWinter2008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/bc633b25/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 7 17:55:57 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:55:57 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror In-Reply-To: <00a101c8516b$a80e0220$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <8CA1F9FFB4DE298-E4C-2C03@MBLK-M12.sysops.aol.com> Dear Betty, ?? You're very welcome - it's the least I can do for our brothers, sisters and cousins who suffer the most for OUR Eretz Yisrael (Land of Israel).? I will try to pass around worthwhile information about 'causes,' organizations and/or charities - maybe we can all make folders, and when possible, give what we can... ??? They sacrifice so much....please try to spread the info around, folks - it would be great if this could lead to a groundswell of support for Israeli organizations of this type.?? Color me - 'Always Hopeful!' ????? B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland), ??????????????? Hanoch??? the Lil Lion of Judah? -----Original Message----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 3:26 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror Thanks, Hanoch.? I just had a minute to check out this website and it is so good what this fund is doing for the victims of terror.? We hear so much about victims of terror not only in Israel, but assassinations in Pakistan, and mindless shootings in our country, it is hard not to become insensitive, not consciously of course?but just not take a lot to heart because it is happening all over our globe. ?It is looking at websites such as this one that can give that personal touch that we need to get in touch with real people and real feelings of how horrible and difficult it must be to be faced with situations such as this?this baseless hatred must be battled with baseless love. ? Thanks again and shalom, ? Betty/Elisheva ? ? ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:03 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror ? Shalom to all - ? ??? The One Family Fund does wonderful work for the victims of terror.? Please pass this around, and see if we can help those who need our help... ??????????????? Hanoch Click here: OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the Shattered Lives of Israel's Terror Victims See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/601feb8b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 7 19:14:27 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:14:27 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding theShatteredLives of Israel's Terror In-Reply-To: <8CA1F9FFB4DE298-E4C-2C03@MBLK-M12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00da01c85193$d0abc6e0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Hanoch, This site is definitely bookmarked on my computer in a Tzedekah ( charity) folder. I challenge any one of you to watch the video about the children who are terror victims and not shed a tear. It is absolutely beautiful what these people are doing! I forwarded the link to several of my friends.even one to my supervisor that Roger and I worked for for about two weeks during the holidays. I think he will receive it graciously and forward it to his friends because he knows that G-d blesses those who bless Israel. He called me the other day after leaving me a voice message, and asked me if I was Jewish. I said yes - why do you ask? He told me that he had noticed that my voice message says "Shalom" as a greeting and that made him wonder. I have had that same greeting on my phone for years. Sometimes it gets strange reactions, but usually it is good, and it sometimes gives me an opening to share my faith. Anyway, he told me that he had always admired the Jewish people and that as he grew up in his fundamental church background, he had always been taught that God promised that he would bless those who bless Israel.just a nice little "story" I thought I would share. Please, everyone, do check out the website! You will be blessed! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 5:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding theShatteredLives of Israel's Terror Dear Betty, You're very welcome - it's the least I can do for our brothers, sisters and cousins who suffer the most for OUR Eretz Yisrael (Land of Israel). I will try to pass around worthwhile information about 'causes,' organizations and/or charities - maybe we can all make folders, and when possible, give what we can... They sacrifice so much....please try to spread the info around, folks - it would be great if this could lead to a groundswell of support for Israeli organizations of this type. Color me - 'Always Hopeful!' B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland), Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah -----Original Message----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 3:26 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror Thanks, Hanoch. I just had a minute to check out this website and it is so good what this fund is doing for the victims of terror. We hear so much about victims of terror not only in Israel, but assassinations in Pakistan, and mindless shootings in our country, it is hard not to become insensitive, not consciously of course.but just not take a lot to heart because it is happening all over our globe. It is looking at websites such as this one that can give that personal touch that we need to get in touch with real people and real feelings of how horrible and difficult it must be to be faced with situations such as this.this baseless hatred must be battled with baseless love. Thanks again and shalom, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:03 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror Shalom to all - The One Family Fund does wonderful work for the victims of terror. Please pass this around, and see if we can help those who need our help... Hanoch Click here: OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the Shattered Lives of Israel's Terror Victims _____ See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. _______________________________________________ _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/30592986/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 20:29:03 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:29:03 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror In-Reply-To: <8CA1F9FFB4DE298-E4C-2C03@MBLK-M12.sysops.aol.com> References: <00a101c8516b$a80e0220$643c66c9@bettygivin> <8CA1F9FFB4DE298-E4C-2C03@MBLK-M12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: What a wonderful mitzvah they are doing at OneFamily Fund. I plan to help them as I can, and I'm sending this site out to others I know to give them an opportunity to share in this blessing as well. Thank you, Pat To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:55:57 -0500From: youngbarzel at aol.com Dear Betty, You're very welcome - it's the least I can do for our brothers, sisters and cousins who suffer the most for OUR Eretz Yisrael (Land of Israel). I will try to pass around worthwhile information about 'causes,' organizations and/or charities - maybe we can all make folders, and when possible, give what we can... They sacrifice so much....please try to spread the info around, folks - it would be great if this could lead to a groundswell of support for Israeli organizations of this type. Color me - 'Always Hopeful!' B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland), Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah -----Original Message-----From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSent: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 3:26 pmSubject: RE: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror Thanks, Hanoch. I just had a minute to check out this website and it is so good what this fund is doing for the victims of terror. We hear so much about victims of terror not only in Israel, but assassinations in Pakistan, and mindless shootings in our country, it is hard not to become insensitive, not consciously of course?but just not take a lot to heart because it is happening all over our globe. It is looking at websites such as this one that can give that personal touch that we need to get in touch with real people and real feelings of how horrible and difficult it must be to be faced with situations such as this?this baseless hatred must be battled with baseless love. Thanks again and shalom, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.comSent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:03 PMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror Shalom to all - The One Family Fund does wonderful work for the victims of terror. Please pass this around, and see if we can help those who need our help... Hanoch Click here: OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the Shattered Lives of Israel's Terror Victims See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/517fc2a4/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 7 20:31:31 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:31:31 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A GREAT & funny YouTube to watch Message-ID: Dear everyone, Sometimes we all need a laugh, especially ME!! LOL This looks like a very funny movie - not too many comedies are made about Israelis! Hanoch _Click here: YouTube - You Don't Mess with the Zohan (2008) Official Movie Trailer_ (http://youtube.com/watch?v=e1Uw12OMdA8) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/eada9e73/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 7 20:38:04 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:38:04 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Is... Message-ID: Great Pat! Maybe one day we can make an organized list of organizations that Zionist supporters (of ALL persuasions) could help support. Sounds like I just gave myself another assignment....sighhh :-) B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland), Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/01762b94/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 7 20:41:13 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:41:13 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A GREAT & funny YouTube to watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010201c8519f$efa07760$643c66c9@bettygivin> Definitely, we all need a laugh and this is too cute! Thanks for sharing, Hanoch! Betty, Givin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:32 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] A GREAT & funny YouTube to watch Dear everyone, Sometimes we all need a laugh, especially ME!! LOL This looks like a very funny movie - not too many comedies are made about Israelis! Hanoch Click here: YouTube - You Don't Mess with the Zohan (2008) Official Movie Trailer _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/7db3d386/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 7 20:50:04 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:50:04 EST Subject: [Dialogue] re: The Land (Rick's pics) Message-ID: Dear Rick - Thanks for showing those pics, sighhh....how I miss Israel...although I wasn't going to mention anything just yet, I will be going to Israel (G-d willing) in March to visit my daughter, Kyra. I have just gotten approval from work (like a furlough from prison!), and the 'ok' to take 3 weeks in a row (which it appears, no Center employee has ever gotten to do)!! During that time, Kyra won't be able to be with me everyday, since she has her commitments to Sherut Leumi (National Service), but we will certainly get together! I should write you guys a bit about her - she's an amazing young woman, but all the credit goes to her and her commitment. There are also a number of appointments, of various types that I'll be setting up for that time period. In case you guys haven't figured it our yet - I am DESPERATE to live in Israel. This coming trip could provide some very interesting results, as well as the anticipated spiritual LIFT and inspiration. Flight is booked, apartment rented - I'm ready! Sighhhh...if only I could go, and never leave....G-d willing, soon.... B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland), Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/79573038/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 7 21:10:22 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 22:10:22 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A GREAT & funny YouTube to watch Message-ID: I can't wait to see this!! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/4ab0b6e0/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 7 21:35:28 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:35:28 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! Message-ID: <012401c851a7$83beffa0$643c66c9@bettygivin> I went to bed one night last week after being up late at my computer, having affirmed in an email the absolute sovereignty of G-d and mentioned G-d as Adon Olam ( the L-rd, or G-d of the World). Well, I woke up with a start, and since some of you have "gotten things" and I never have really, not scripture and verse anyway.so, I got out of bed, and I just asked HaShem, like He was right there in the room with me, "HaShem, do have a scripture I need to read?" I was still very sleepy, but remember putting on my glasses which were beside my bed, like I knew I would need them.it was all very casual as I remember. No sooner had I put them on, that Psalm 33:9 came into my mind. Then, I was up and awake and hurried into our study, and turned the light on. I had no idea what that verse said, so I looked it up. The whole Psalm is one that I have read before.it is all about praising the G-d of Creation for all that He has done and how if we put our hope in Him he will deliver us, as we continue to hope in Him.a beautiful psalm.and I think another one that when you read it, just overpowers you with the feeling that the G-d who made Heaven and Earth is the same G-d who looks down from heaven and "beholds all the sons of men." He "fashions our hearts," considers our deeds.He is the G-d of the Universe, Adon Olam, commanding fear and awe. and yet .He is our help and our shield and He loves us! He deals with the big matters of the Creation and sustaining of the world, yet he deals with individuals as well. I think I am being redundant, so I will stop and quote a few verses.I think verse 9 is the focal point as this is the one He brought to my mind. The Hebrew Bible reads : v.8 Let all the earth fear HaShem: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. v. 9 For He spoke, and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast. v.10 HaShem brings the counsel of the nations to nought: he makes the devices of the peoples to be of no effect. v.11 The counsel of HaShem stands forever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. v.12 Happy is the nation whose G-d is Hashem; and the people whom He has chosen for his own inheritance. Not sure what all this means.beyond the fact that He is the one in charge of everything and that His Word will stand forever, even against the counsel of the nations and that He will take care of His people, and that He has his "eye upon those who fear Him and those who maintain hope in His steadfast love."(verse 18 which is "chai", life). When I shared this with Kim, she said that she thought that another conference regarding dividing Jerusalem is coming up soon. Anyone else have any other ideas? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/9840427a/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 22:15:22 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:15:22 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! In-Reply-To: <012401c851a7$83beffa0$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <012401c851a7$83beffa0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: Betty, that is a PR if there ever was one! There are times when we just feel and know that He is about to speak. You responded. You were willing. You were listening. And that powerful word you received blesses me so very much: "FOR HE SPOKE AND IT WAS; HE COMMANDED AND IT STOOD FAST," Ps 33:9. I believe that He was referring to all the PR's and SE's He is giving (and will give) to all of us. He spoke them, so they ARE. He commanded them, so they WILL stand fast! Amazing!!!!!! Pat From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:35:28 -0600Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! I went to bed one night last week after being up late at my computer, having affirmed in an email the absolute sovereignty of G-d and mentioned G-d as Adon Olam ( the L-rd, or G-d of the World). Well, I woke up with a start, and since some of you have ?gotten things? and I never have really, not scripture and verse anyway?so, I got out of bed, and I just asked HaShem, like He was right there in the room with me, ?HaShem, do have a scripture I need to read?? I was still very sleepy, but remember putting on my glasses which were beside my bed, like I knew I would need them?it was all very casual as I remember. No sooner had I put them on, that Psalm 33:9 came into my mind. Then, I was up and awake and hurried into our study, and turned the light on. I had no idea what that verse said, so I looked it up. The whole Psalm is one that I have read before?it is all about praising the G-d of Creation for all that He has done and how if we put our hope in Him he will deliver us, as we continue to hope in Him?a beautiful psalm?and I think another one that when you read it, just overpowers you with the feeling that the G-d who made Heaven and Earth is the same G-d who looks down from heaven and ?beholds all the sons of men.? He ?fashions our hearts,? considers our deeds?He is the G-d of the Universe, Adon Olam, commanding fear and awe? and yet ?He is our help and our shield and He loves us! He deals with the big matters of the Creation and sustaining of the world, yet he deals with individuals as well? I think I am being redundant, so I will stop and quote a few verses?I think verse 9 is the focal point as this is the one He brought to my mind. The Hebrew Bible reads : v.8 Let all the earth fear HaShem: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. v. 9 For He spoke, and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast. v.10 HaShem brings the counsel of the nations to nought: he makes the devices of the peoples to be of no effect. v.11 The counsel of HaShem stands forever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. v.12 Happy is the nation whose G-d is Hashem; and the people whom He has chosen for his own inheritance. Not sure what all this means?beyond the fact that He is the one in charge of everything and that His Word will stand forever, even against the counsel of the nations and that He will take care of His people, and that He has his ?eye upon those who fear Him and those who maintain hope in His steadfast love.?(verse 18 which is ?chai?, life). When I shared this with Kim, she said that she thought that another conference regarding dividing Jerusalem is coming up soon? Anyone else have any other ideas? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/5b9ea932/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 7 22:30:48 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 22:30:48 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <014b01c851af$3e7c4f80$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thank-you, Pat, for the affirmation! It did seem pretty powerful! Just trying to sort it all out.as I am not used to this sort of thing. I think I needed it as we all seem to right about now! Anachnu Nikravanu ("We are Blessed!") Did I get it right, Hanoch? Love, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:15 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! Betty, that is a PR if there ever was one! There are times when we just feel and know that He is about to speak. You responded. You were willing. You were listening. And that powerful word you received blesses me so very much: "FOR HE SPOKE AND IT WAS; HE COMMANDED AND IT STOOD FAST," Ps 33:9. I believe that He was referring to all the PR's and SE's He is giving (and will give) to all of us. He spoke them, so they ARE. He commanded them, so they WILL stand fast! Amazing!!!!!! Pat _____ From: bkgivin at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:35:28 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! I went to bed one night last week after being up late at my computer, having affirmed in an email the absolute sovereignty of G-d and mentioned G-d as Adon Olam ( the L-rd, or G-d of the World). Well, I woke up with a start, and since some of you have "gotten things" and I never have really, not scripture and verse anyway.so, I got out of bed, and I just asked HaShem, like He was right there in the room with me, "HaShem, do have a scripture I need to read?" I was still very sleepy, but remember putting on my glasses which were beside my bed, like I knew I would need them.it was all very casual as I remember. No sooner had I put them on, that Psalm 33:9 came into my mind. Then, I was up and awake and hurried into our study, and turned the light on. I had no idea what that verse said, so I looked it up. The whole Psalm is one that I have read before.it is all about praising the G-d of Creation for all that He has done and how if we put our hope in Him he will deliver us, as we continue to hope in Him.a beautiful psalm.and I think another one that when you read it, just overpowers you with the feeling that the G-d who made Heaven and Earth is the same G-d who looks down from heaven and "beholds all the sons of men." He "fashions our hearts," considers our deeds.He is the G-d of the Universe, Adon Olam, commanding fear and awe. and yet .He is our help and our shield and He loves us! He deals with the big matters of the Creation and sustaining of the world, yet he deals with individuals as well. I think I am being redundant, so I will stop and quote a few verses.I think verse 9 is the focal point as this is the one He brought to my mind. The Hebrew Bible reads : v.8 Let all the earth fear HaShem: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. v. 9 For He spoke, and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast. v.10 HaShem brings the counsel of the nations to nought: he makes the devices of the peoples to be of no effect. v.11 The counsel of HaShem stands forever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. v.12 Happy is the nation whose G-d is Hashem; and the people whom He has chosen for his own inheritance. Not sure what all this means.beyond the fact that He is the one in charge of everything and that His Word will stand forever, even against the counsel of the nations and that He will take care of His people, and that He has his "eye upon those who fear Him and those who maintain hope in His steadfast love."(verse 18 which is "chai", life). When I shared this with Kim, she said that she thought that another conference regarding dividing Jerusalem is coming up soon. Anyone else have any other ideas? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/68313389/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Jan 8 00:22:05 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:22:05 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! -Pointers In-Reply-To: References: <012401c851a7$83beffa0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <200801080622.m086M1xo014652@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/7db30b62/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 8 01:12:40 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 01:12:40 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! -Pointers In-Reply-To: <200801080622.m086M1xo014652@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <015a01c851c5$db045300$643c66c9@bettygivin> Steve, Baruch HaShem! Thank-you for your strong affirmation. This is all new to me. There was one time in my life over a decade ago (in the 1990's) when several rather "astounding" things happened.some in the form of "happenings" (not sure what to call them), and some in the form of visions, centering around the time when we were rediscovering the roots of our faith and learning about Torah and making important life decisions and also going thru some major turmoil; but there has been a very long and silent period.and even then, I never, ever got a scripture and verse! I will go to your website and fill in the details, but it will have to be tomorrow as I am so tired that I cannot think straight right now. But thank-you, again, for your faith and for your encouragement, and for who you are. It is pretty amazing that Adon Olam is listening to our cries.just as He heard the cries of the children of Israel in Mitzrayim. I cannot remember the verse, but I remember it as something like, "He brought us out to bring us in!" It seems that this is what is happening in our day.He is bringing us out of our own bondage, (all kinds here) figuratively speaking, so that He can bring us in.but in order for Him to do this work in us, our spirits have to be quickened towards Him and we need to cry out to him for help.and after all He has done, why would we doubt? I mean, look where we all are..we have all been "drawn out" of something to come to an appreciation of HaShem and His Torah and the Ancient Paths. May HaShem, Adon Olam (The G-d, L-rd, Ruler of the World) no longer hide His face.may we see the "light of His countenance" and be blessed. Love and blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:22 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! -Pointers Betty and All, It is happening! Adon Olam, is turning His face toward us letting us know that He is listening, and mm=ore, that He is communicating to us His Agenda that we need to know about. Want to mention to all, that this type of affirmation of our heart's outpouring, be it in a passionate email declaration, prayer, or deed, PRs can be a "mirroring" back of the content of such activities that we have just done. In that sense, it looks like Adon Olam is giving us a "summary" from His Word, of that activity, that is better than anything we could come up with. I have seen this many times. The fact that you were awakened in the middle of the night to be conveyed this, makes this PR of utmost importance, for the manner of receiving it testifies of the magnitude of the message. These messages / PRs are often not just for the receiver, sometimes not at all, though this is not the case here, but are for the "times" that we live in, and address the issues therein. One might say, they are revelations of God's commentary on the "zeitgeist" that is being sent into the world, and it workings. In short, we are seeing the "prophetic spirit" being restored to us and our times. Baruch HaShem! I fully expect these seeds to bloom. As we collect them, we will see patterns emerging of and what we are in and what we need to do. If I may ask all of you again, to please record these PRs, SEs, and dreams for your own records immediately, because significant details can evaporate from memory if we do not record them immediately after the experience. Then may I say, that we need to collect them and look for emerging patterns. We can discuss these on the list. Since I have been wanting to see this to happen for years, am most interested and am asking all to fill out a report sheet on on my website and send it in as an a Word attachment. I appreciate you, Hanoch, Betty, and everyone else to fill out a report sheet on your experience. There are also private content PRs, that refer to one's own needs and proclivities, and am not asking that those be publicly posted at all. If any wish to share those, they can, to add their experience to the informal research I am doing on these PRs, SEs, etc., to see how we get them, and what the nature of them are, and most importantly, what the contents are. My registration form is not repaired yet, but I hope it will be soon, and when it is I will let all know, so you can register for updates. For now, all concerned, please fill out a PR report form at: http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Prayer%20research%20form.html Another important detail we need to notice is that Betty's prayer is in the form of "talking to God." This form has been advocated by many spiritual giants, e.g. The baal Shem Tov, to Rebbi Nachman, various Xtian saints, etc. In these talk, we are speaking from the heart, and this is what God wants to hear. though we need to be respectful, "talking" is the key. We see somewhat of an example, though whimsical for the sake of story telling, but it contains the essence of this type of "talk," in Fiddler on the Roof. Here Tuviye(Tevye) is "talking" to God, from his heart. Another point to keep in mind is what Pat observes. We need to heed to "the feeling" when we have it, that we need to listen" to what He is about to tell us. It is best to say, give praise and say thanks of His "calling" say and something like, "What is it that you want me to know?" One needs to mark it down then and there. This shows that you are earnest and value such communications. Followed by more thanks and praise. For for personally related inquiries it is best to say" What do I need to know?" After answers, more praise and thanks, it is good to ask, "What else do you want me to know?" This is because, there are often a strings of PR references, which can be exact chapter and verse, page numbers with location of verse in which part of the page, only chapter numbers, in Tanakhs, Chumashim and prayer books. They can be also in other books, though these are not common. If so, you will be directed to them, you will not need to have them in front of you. It is best to have a closed Tanakh, and prayer book in front of one, just in case God wants to direct you to something in them. Often PRs come at the end of a prayer, but they can come in the middle of prayer, just like in a conversation. My own comment on this PR's content is underscoring what Kim says and also what Pat says. It could serve to us as a prima facia evidence that He is about to "talk" to us more, and that we are to listen to His promptings to "LISTEN" when His call comes through to our consciousness. This gives a whole new meaning to Shema Israel!! Let's all do it! After all Eldad, Medad, and Moses did..... It is prophesied that we shall seek out David our king, and it is implied that he will teach us... he modeled to us what we need to say: " Dismiss me not empty-handed." Let's do it and listen.... after all, in times past of our history we have not done so.... we need to do it NOW..... May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob open our ears, and eyes.... Steve At 08:15 PM 1/7/2008, you wrote: Betty, that is a PR if there ever was one! There are times when we just feel and know that He is about to speak. You responded. You were willing. You were listening. And that powerful word you received blesses me so very much: "FOR HE SPOKE AND IT WAS; HE COMMANDED AND IT STOOD FAST," Ps 33:9. I believe that He was referring to all the PR's and SE's He is giving (and will give) to all of us. He spoke them, so they ARE. He commanded them, so they WILL stand fast! Amazing!!!!!! Pat _____ From: bkgivin at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:35:28 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! I went to bed one night last week after being up late at my computer, having affirmed in an email the absolute sovereignty of G-d and mentioned G-d as Adon Olam ( the L-rd, or G-d of the World). Well, I woke up with a start, and since some of you have "gotten things" and I never have really, not scripture and verse anyway.so, I got out of bed, and I just asked HaShem, like He was right there in the room with me, "HaShem, do have a scripture I need to read?" I was still very sleepy, but remember putting on my glasses which were beside my bed, like I knew I would need them.it was all very casual as I remember. No sooner had I put them on, that Psalm 33:9 came into my mind. Then, I was up and awake and hurried into our study, and turned the light on. I had no idea what that verse said, so I looked it up. The whole Psalm is one that I have read before.it is all about praising the G-d of Creation for all that He has done and how if we put our hope in Him he will deliver us, as we continue to hope in Him.a beautiful psalm.and I think another one that when you read it, just overpowers you with the feeling that the G-d who made Heaven and Earth is the same G-d who looks down from heaven and "beholds all the sons of men." He "fashions our hearts," considers our deeds.He is the G-d of the Universe, Adon Olam, commanding fear and awe. and yet .He is our help and our shield and He loves us! He deals with the big matters of the Creation and sustaining of the world, yet he deals with individuals as well. I think I am being redundant, so I will stop and quote a few verses.I think verse 9 is the focal point as this is the one He brought to my mind. The Hebrew Bible reads : v.8 Let all the earth fear HaShem: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. v. 9 For He spoke, and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast. v.10 HaShem brings the counsel of the nations to nought: he makes the devices of the peoples to be of no effect. v.11 The counsel of HaShem stands forever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. v.12 Happy is the nation whose G-d is Hashem; and the people whom He has chosen for his own inheritance. Not sure what all this means.beyond the fact that He is the one in charge of everything and that His Word will stand forever, even against the counsel of the nations and that He will take care of His people, and that He has his "eye upon those who fear Him and those who maintain hope in His steadfast love."(verse 18 which is "chai", life). When I shared this with Kim, she said that she thought that another conference regarding dividing Jerusalem is coming up soon. Anyone else have any other ideas? _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/8fdeac6a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 05:36:04 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:36:04 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! Message-ID: Hi Betty - "Getting it right? I'm not sure - it's not an expression I've ever used, but I'll check it out when I get to work! Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/2b8502ba/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 05:39:59 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:39:59 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! Message-ID: Hi Betty - I think you mean, Anachnu Nivarchanu - but I will check it out with my Israeli coworkers. Talk later! Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/2918323b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 05:43:49 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:43:49 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A Rosh Chodesh quote Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Chodesh Tov (good month!), Hanoch Hashem also will be a high tower for the oppressed, a high tower in times of trouble; And they that know Your name will put their trust in You; for You, Hashem, have not forsaken those that seek You. Psalm 9:10-11 **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/88da8e2a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 05:53:23 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:53:23 EST Subject: [Dialogue] From Rebbe Yoda...encouraging... Message-ID: "Already know you that which you need..." Yoda **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/2eb73d3a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 06:06:37 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:06:37 EST Subject: [Dialogue] "The Torah in Our Church" Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Chodesh Tov (Good Month!). May Shevat be a good month for all of HaSHem's people. Below is an interesting article which brings up (yet another..) subject of my interest - "Lost Jews." My comments are immediately below, followed by the article. B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch This is very interesting (from Aish.com).... I've been reading numerous articles about the descendants of Anusim (those forcibly converted to Christianity) becoming aware of their Jewish heritage. I actually heard a presentation that stated that it's estimated that there are between 2 - 4 MILLION Hispanics in the U.S. and Mexico who either are direct descendants of Anusim (the term "Marrano" which is extremely derogatory, used to be used), or have Jewish ancestors...considering the size of the American Jewish population (about 5 million, using a loose definition), that's a STAGGERING number of potential Returnees to Torah Faith. And that has nothing to do with the numbers in South America...and Brazil is HUGE.....I've begun compiling statistics of these 'potential' or 'exotic' pockets of Jews. Maybe I'll even get around to writing a paper about it, one day....The article is an 'FYI' - it is NOT what I'm advocating for the people on this list - it's a totally different situation... The Torah in Our Church: _http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp_ (http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp) (http://www.aish.com/) See this article online: _http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp_ (http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp) _by Yosef Juarez_ (http://www.aish.com/search/article_search_results.asp?article_author=Yosef+Juarez&title_text=&date_amount=&date_option=year) The amazing story of our church that en masse decided to convert to Judaism. I was born in Honduras, 23 years ago, the oldest of four children. I lived in a neighborhood with all my cousins, on a street named after my mother's ancestors. We attended a church that is non-denominational, but with a strong evangelical bent. When I was three years old, I fell from the second story of my house and dropped head-first onto the concrete, fracturing my skull. I was rushed to the hospital and wasn't moving at all, just gazing off into the distance. The situation was very grave. But then something strange happened. The next day, it was as if nothing had happened. The doctor ordered new x-rays, and there was no sign of any damage -- no fracture, not even a scratch. Due to this, our family grew as religious Christians, and throughout my life I was focused on the service of God. When I was eight years old, we moved to America, which offered better financial opportunities. We settled in a suburb of Houston and looked around for a good church to attend, but nothing seemed as good as what we had back in Honduras. Our old church was based in Honduras, but has branches in U.S. cities that have a sizable Central American and Hispanic population. So together with one other family, we requested that the church send us a minister. They sent us a man named Hector Flores, who at the time was still training to be a minister. And that's how our Houston church started -- in one room in a house. Minister Flores was fascinated with the Holy Temple, and its predecessor the Tabernacle (Mishkan). He had access to books and resources, and he started teaching Torah ideas that were unique in a Christian setting. We would spend months and months delving into aspects of the Torah. The church membership grew steadily, as we were very outreach-oriented. The city was divided up into districts and groups, and we would literally go out into the streets and preach to people. During high school, I studied in my church's discipleship program, where they train young people in leadership skills and how to preach. We'd bring people into the church and provide them with family counseling and programs for all ages. It functioned very much like a family. And we would train the new members to reach out and bring more people to church. Of course, people who came to our church for the first time would wonder why we were discussing Jewish topics, and not preaching so much about the typical teachings of Jesus. But Minister Flores continued on his unique path, and the church eventually split into two congregations. We got our own building and bought land to expand. Hebrew Songs One of the unique customs of our church was something Minister Flores called "festivals of consecration." These were patterned after the festivals in the Torah, where people would bring large donations to fund the church activities. >From there it was constant small steps toward Torah: the obligation to tithe, where we'd give 10 percent of our income to church activities. After a while our festivals got assigned Jewish names, like Purim and Shavuot, corresponding to the Jewish holiday they fell close to. This was definitely not consistent with mainstream Christianity. And the closer we got to Torah, the more some congregants became uncomfortable and started to drop out. It was a filtering process. Unbeknownst to us, behind the scenes, Minister Flores was going through an intense personal transition. After much research, he discovered many inconsistencies and contradictions in the New Testament, making the tenets of Christianity untenable. Minister Flores started secretly going to a rabbi, to pester him with questions. Then he'd come back and teach us, slowly getting us closer and closer to Judaism. Soon after, Minister Flores made the decision to convert to Judaism. But he struggled to find a way to tell us, as he didn't want to tear down Christianity without being able to offer us an alternative. So he kept teaching Torah, but in a way that was as subtle as possible. He gradually peeled away the things that were wrong and got us closer to Torah. Our church started replacing Jesus' name with Jewish, Hebrew names of God, and the songs became Hebrew songs. We began to incorporate real Jewish traditions into our festivals, and we even got a Torah scroll for the church. At that point we resembled more of a Jews for Jesus group, in the sense that we were Christians with a lot of Jewish traditions. The difference, of course, was that we were moving in the direction toward authentic Judaism, not the other way around. During this process, our biggest resource for information was Aish.com, and its Spanish sister site. At one point the church printed out reams of Aish.com articles on all the holidays, and gave a binder of these articles to each family. Some of the church members became resistant to all these changes, and a number of people dropped out. There were occasional confrontations where people would question the minister, "How far are you going with all this?" And he would simply answer, "As far as the Torah takes us." Revelation About six months after Minister Flores made the private decision to convert, my mother had been at a Jewish bookstore and bought the book, "The Real Messiah" by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. This book lays out all the evidence for why Jews don't believe in Jesus, in a very scholarly and convincing way. We found that a lot of Christian teachings were based on mistranslations or taking biblical verses out of context. So my mother suspected there was more to this "Torah teaching" than the minister had been letting on. Every Sunday after services, the entire congregation would go together to the park. One Sunday, my mother confronted the minister: "You know more than you're telling us, don't you." He would never lie or deny such a direct question, so he saw this was the right time to reveal his plan to convert. That Sunday, we all stayed at the park for hours and hours, discussing and explaining, until long after dark. At that point, about 100 people wanted to keep studying with the possibility of conversion. But many others took the choice of becoming Bnei Noach, following the seven pillars of human civilization that the Torah presents for non-Jews to observe. Minister Flores explained that any human being who faithfully observes these laws earns a proper place in heaven, and this was an appealing alternative for many church members. My mother, however, wanted to stick with the group who was interested in conversion. So we kept on learning, and eventually our group decided to attend Shabbat services. So one Saturday morning our entire congregation showed up at the United Orthodox Synagogues. It was a bit of a shock to the community, because such a huge influx upset the social balance. But the leader of the synagogue, Rabbi Joseph Radinsky, was like an angel to us; his kindness and sincerity is clear to anyone who knows him. When they saw things were serious, the Houston community sent a Spanish-speaking rabbi, Jose Gomez, to help each family clarify the right path. (He himself had converted 10 years earlier in Houston along with his entire family -- parents, siblings, aunts and uncles.) As expected, all of this caused a real stir in the Christian community in Houston. First in the Family Minister Flores was amongst the first to convert, and since then many of our church members have converted, while others are in the process. My own conversion was finalized a year ago, and my mother and siblings are still in the process. I chose the name "Yosef" because in the Bible, Joseph was the first of his family to go down to Egypt. He established himself and was able to help bring the rest of his family along. My mother says that in our path to conversion, I have been sent ahead as our family's "Yosef." After my conversion, I came to Israel and was really amazed. I saw a variety of Jews, and a whole different side of Judaism. There was something special about everything. I even found myself taking pictures of grass and rocks! I felt truly Jewish for the first time. I started doing research into my roots, because I knew that this awakening to Judaism comes from a very deep place. I found out that on a voyage to the New World in 1502, Christopher Columbus reached the Bay Islands on the coast of Honduras, which became part of the Spanish empire. Jews undoubtedly came to Honduras at this time, on the heels of the Spanish Inquisition when many Jews "converted to Christianity" but secretly remained Jewish. I'm anxious to find out more about my ancestors, but it's very hard to track. So where am I today? I am studying at the Aish HaTorah yeshiva in the Old City of Jerusalem and I love it. I'm so enthusiastic about everything that I learn, and cannot wait to share it with all my friends and family back home. At this point, my plans for the future are pretty open. I want to continue to study Torah, finish my undergraduate degree, and see what opportunities develop. But one thing I know for sure: I am committed to reaching out to my fellow Jews. If I was fortunate enough to discover this gold mine of spiritual wealth and fulfillment, then those who were born Jewish surely must be given that opportunity. And who knows -- just as Aish.com spurred my Jewish growth, maybe this article will be the spark that someone else has been waiting for. This article can also be read at: _http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp_ (http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/7046970c/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 8 09:04:11 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:04:11 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Science vs God (really a good one) I thought youwould like this. Message-ID: <1158055377-1199804846-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1181607014-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> The following is a very good philosophical discussion. It was written with a Christian overture but that is not important to the underlying point so please disregard that part. I think the argument it self is something important for us all to understand concerning G-d. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "AMEDEE, SUSAN W" Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:16:17 To: Subject: Science vs God (really a good one) I thought youwould like this. A Keeper! J ? ? ? "Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?" "Yes sir," the student says. "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure! God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." "Are you good or evil?" "The Bible says I'm evil." The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible !" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?" "Yes sir, I wo uld." "So you're good...!" "I wouldn't say that." "But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't." The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" The student remains silent. "No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. "Let's start again, young fella Is God good?" "Er...yes," the student says. "Is Satan good?" The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No." "Then where does Satan come from?" The student: "From...God..." "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?" "Yes, s ir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?" "Yes." "So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil." Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?" The student: "Yes." "So who created them?" The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?" The student's voice is confident: "Yes, professor, I do." The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?" "No sir. I've never seen Him" "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" "No, sir, I have not." "Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?" "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "Yet you still believe in him?" "Yes." "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?" "Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith." "Yes, faith," the professor repeats. < FONT face=Arial color=#c00000>"And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith." The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his ow n. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?" "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." "And is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too." "No sir, there isn't." The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word w e use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence acr oss the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer. "What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?" "Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?" "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?" The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him and says, "This is going to be a good semester... So what point are you making, young man?" "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed." The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?" "You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, somethin g we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never been seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it." "Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "I f you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do" "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed. "Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?" The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the profess or's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?" Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers "I guess you'll have to take them on faith." "Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?" Now uncert ain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil." To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light." The professor sat down. Pass this on if you love Jesus. From tmich33 at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 8 10:22:21 2008 From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:22:21 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to share Message-ID: <010820081622.25488.4783A33D000078AC0000639022218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Psalms 119:165 (165) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/243b7e1a/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 8 10:47:20 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:47:20 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to share Message-ID: <010820081647.19134.4783A915000A285300004ABE22230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Amein! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" : -------------- Psalms 119:165 (165) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/3d1916d0/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 11:46:56 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:46:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to share In-Reply-To: <010820081622.25488.4783A33D000078AC0000639022218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <010820081622.25488.4783A33D000078AC0000639022218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <8CA2035986CE3CD-EE0-3D6E@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Hi Tamara - ??? Great verse, and it came at a good time in the day? :-)?? Thanks for sharing! ???????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tamara Michael To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:22 am Subject: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to share ? ? Psalms 119:165 (165) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. ? _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/14a0b4a4/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 8 12:15:46 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:15:46 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005301c85222$7dc7c930$643c66c9@bettygivin> Hi Hanoch, I think I was tired and my dyslexia took over..that is what I meant.thanks! Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 5:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Psalm 33:9! Awakened in the Night! Hi Betty - I think you mean, Anachnu Nivarchanu - but I will check it out with my Israeli coworkers. Talk later! Hanoch _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/33fc97cf/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 8 12:16:55 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:16:55 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to share In-Reply-To: <010820081622.25488.4783A33D000078AC0000639022218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <005e01c85222$a698b310$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thank-you, Tammy.a very appropriate verse for today.Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tamara Michael Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to share Psalms 119:165 (165) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/39841875/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 12:23:48 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:23:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to share In-Reply-To: <010820081622.25488.4783A33D000078AC0000639022218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <881763.86937.qm@web57101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Amen and Amen!! Love the verse Tammy Shalom and thanks for sharing with us, Tammy Croley Tamara Michael wrote: p { margin: 0px; color: #990033; } .valentine { font: italic 90% "trebuchet MS", Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: #990033; } Psalms 119:165 (165) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. _______________________________________________ ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/20350730/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 14:08:48 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:08:48 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to share In-Reply-To: <010820081647.19134.4783A915000A285300004ABE22230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <010820081647.19134.4783A915000A285300004ABE22230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801081208w16ef4cf7gf398cb7cd83b9f45@mail.gmail.com> Amen, very fitting for what has been on my mind as of late. Kim On Jan 8, 2008 10:47 AM, wrote: > Amein! > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" < > tmich33 at bellsouth.net>: -------------- > > Psalms 119:165 > > (165) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend > them. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/7c2608bd/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 14:13:56 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:13:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Message-ID: <8CA204A2187A2BF-EF4-174A@MBLK-M25.sysops.aol.com> Shalom to all, ??? Every once in a while, something occurs that makes me realize that 'tomorrow isn't guaranteed; that if there was someone I wanted to apologize to, I should do it, and not wait.... ????On New Years Day I wrote about John, the son of the woman my brother lives with, being hit by a truck while crossing a Manhattan Street (New Years Eve) by a drunk driver.? I never met him, and actually, barely know his mother....but I felt so bad when I heard about this accident.? He was in a coma, and was on a respirator.? Well, my brother just called to tell me that John, age 21, died this morning, and they were donating his organs as we were speaking. ???? Since they're Greek Orthodox, the wake is Friday night, with the burial on Shabbat, so I can't even go....I just feel so bad for them.?? ??? Don't wait until tomorrow, we never have any guarantees.... ??? Sorry to share sad news... ?????????????? Hanoch ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/3b713682/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 14:19:25 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:19:25 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow In-Reply-To: <8CA204A2187A2BF-EF4-174A@MBLK-M25.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA204A2187A2BF-EF4-174A@MBLK-M25.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801081219i647baf76q7d41e86d1bfa43b0@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch, My prayers are with them. There are not many things as hard as burying your own child. Kim On Jan 8, 2008 2:13 PM, wrote: > Shalom to all, > > Every once in a while, something occurs that makes me realize that > 'tomorrow isn't guaranteed; that if there was someone I wanted to apologize > to, I should do it, and not wait.... > > On New Years Day I wrote about John, the son of the woman my brother > lives with, being hit by a truck while crossing a Manhattan Street (New > Years Eve) by a drunk driver. I never met him, and actually, barely know > his mother....but I felt so bad when I heard about this accident. He was in > a coma, and was on a respirator. Well, my brother just called to tell me > that John, age 21, died this morning, and they were donating his organs as > we were speaking. > > Since they're Greek Orthodox, the wake is Friday night, with the > burial on Shabbat, so I can't even go....I just feel so bad for them. > > Don't wait until tomorrow, we never have any guarantees.... > > Sorry to share sad news... > > Hanoch > ------------------------------ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail > ! > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/6fcd2ab5/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 8 14:41:57 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:41:57 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Message-ID: <010820082041.28626.4783E014000C94F800006FD222230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> My prayers are with them as well Hanoch. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from youngbarzel at aol.com: -------------- Shalom to all, Every once in a while, something occurs that makes me realize that 'tomorrow isn't guaranteed; that if there was someone I wanted to apologize to, I should do it, and not wait.... On New Years Day I wrote about John, the son of the woman my brother lives with, being hit by a truck while crossing a Manhattan Street (New Years Eve) by a drunk driver. I never met him, and actually, barely know his mother....but I felt so bad when I heard about this accident. He was in a coma, and was on a respirator. Well, my brother just called to tell me that John, age 21, died this morning, and they were donating his organs as we were speaking. Since they're Greek Orthodox, the wake is Friday night, with the burial on Shabbat, so I can't even go....I just feel so bad for them. Don't wait until tomorrow, we never have any guarantees.... Sorry to share sad news... Hanoch More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/df873577/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 14:44:33 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:44:33 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch: What you can do to help Joseph? Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801081244p68914c41nd69f7cfb03aabdbe@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch, As many of us non-Jews are finding that we are not alone in our pull towards the One True G-d and His Torah, I feel that you must not be alone in your pull towards us. Maybe you could seek out others who feel as you do and join forces. I know this is a tall order, but doing what the Chabad does for non-observant Jews is my suggestion. Shalom, Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/d40d9bdf/attachment.html From tsbcroley at yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 15:16:59 2008 From: tsbcroley at yahoo.com (Tammy & Bruce Croley) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:16:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] =?iso-8859-1?q?=93Megillat_Bush_-_The_Bush_Scroll=94_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_on__UTN?= Message-ID: <622005.77923.qm@web57114.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi Everyone, Many of you may have already seen Rabbi Richman on "The Universal Torah Network" talking about the scroll that has been prepared for presentation to President Bush, but if you haven't please take the time to view this program. It is worded very strongly.......as well it should be. If I were President Bush and I knew anything about the Bible.....I would certainly think twice about what I was in Israel to do. Let's continue to pray that HaShem will open the President's eyes and he will heed to the words contained in this scroll. Shalom, Tammy ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/f9ca5f3b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 8 16:04:59 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:04:59 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801081219i647baf76q7d41e86d1bfa43b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a701c85242$82dd4ec0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, I am so sorry to hear this. Death of anyone you love is hard enough, but a child or young person.that has to be the worst, especially if that child is your own. You mentioned that they were Greek Orthodox? I am assuming that it is the faith of the young man's mother, and not your brother? My prayers will be with them as well. Thank-you for letting us know, Hanoch. Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hanoch, My prayers are with them. There are not many things as hard as burying your own child. Kim On Jan 8, 2008 2:13 PM, wrote: Shalom to all, Every once in a while, something occurs that makes me realize that 'tomorrow isn't guaranteed; that if there was someone I wanted to apologize to, I should do it, and not wait.... On New Years Day I wrote about John, the son of the woman my brother lives with, being hit by a truck while crossing a Manhattan Street (New Years Eve) by a drunk driver. I never met him, and actually, barely know his mother....but I felt so bad when I heard about this accident. He was in a coma, and was on a respirator. Well, my brother just called to tell me that John, age 21, died this morning, and they were donating his organs as we were speaking. Since they're Greek Orthodox, the wake is Friday night, with the burial on Shabbat, so I can't even go....I just feel so bad for them. Don't wait until tomorrow, we never have any guarantees.... Sorry to share sad news... Hanoch _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/319a198f/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 8 16:08:28 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:08:28 -0600 Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?RE:_=5BDialogue=5D_=22Megillat_Bush_-_The_Bush_Scroll=22__on?= =?us-ascii?Q?__UTN?= In-Reply-To: <622005.77923.qm@web57114.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c85242$ff6ea6a0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Absolutely! Thanks, Tammy for sharing. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tammy & Bruce Croley Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 3:17 PM To: roots of faith dialogue Subject: [Dialogue] "Megillat Bush - The Bush Scroll" on UTN Hi Everyone, Many of you may have already seen Rabbi Richman on "The Universal Torah Network" talking about the scroll that has been prepared for presentation to President Bush, but if you haven't please take the time to view this program. It is worded very strongly.......as well it should be. If I were President Bush and I knew anything about the Bible.....I would certainly think twice about what I was in Israel to do. Let's continue to pray that HaShem will open the President's eyes and he will heed to the words contained in this scroll. Shalom, Tammy "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 _____ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/a6cc1219/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:18:25 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:18:25 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow In-Reply-To: <00a701c85242$82dd4ec0$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <1c8dbb6e0801081219i647baf76q7d41e86d1bfa43b0@mail.gmail.com> <00a701c85242$82dd4ec0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801081418o22717f30vf5631d3f1c063e65@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch, No apologizes necessary. I am glad that you sent it out. When I was in the grieving process, it was helpful for me to talk to others who had been there. You may give them my email if you wish. I am just sorry that I made you feel bad for me. I have gotten to the point where the good memories outweigh the bad. I can look back and be grateful for the time that I had with him. I smile with the memories of what a blessing that he was and how he touched the lives of so many. My regrets concern my behavior in the time after his death, not ever the regret in experiencing what it meant to be Joshua's mother. Even knowing the end, I would never trade that time of my life for anything. It is part of who I am now. I feel strength having survived the loss. I know I can handle anything as long as HaShem is my strength. Kim :) , no tears today, just praise for HaShem! On Jan 8, 2008 4:04 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Hanoch, I am so sorry to hear this. Death of anyone you love is hard > enough, but a child or young person?that has to be the worst, especially if > that child is your own. > > > > You mentioned that they were Greek Orthodox? I am assuming that it is the > faith of the young man's mother, and not your brother? > > > > My prayers will be with them as well. > > > > Thank-you for letting us know, Hanoch. > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *kim alvarado > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:19 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow > > > > Hanoch, > > My prayers are with them. There are not many things as hard as burying > your own child. > > Kim > > On Jan 8, 2008 2:13 PM, wrote: > > Shalom to all, > > Every once in a while, something occurs that makes me realize that > 'tomorrow isn't guaranteed; that if there was someone I wanted to apologize > to, I should do it, and not wait.... > > On New Years Day I wrote about John, the son of the woman my brother > lives with, being hit by a truck while crossing a Manhattan Street (New > Years Eve) by a drunk driver. I never met him, and actually, barely know > his mother....but I felt so bad when I heard about this accident. He was in > a coma, and was on a respirator. Well, my brother just called to tell me > that John, age 21, died this morning, and they were donating his organs as > we were speaking. > > Since they're Greek Orthodox, the wake is Friday night, with the > burial on Shabbat, so I can't even go....I just feel so bad for them. > > Don't wait until tomorrow, we never have any guarantees.... > > Sorry to share sad news... > > Hanoch > ------------------------------ > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail > ! > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/2da4c969/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:35:26 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:35:26 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror In-Reply-To: <00a101c8516b$a80e0220$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <00a101c8516b$a80e0220$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801081435v283bf923n5f0c3144ebbfcc54@mail.gmail.com> Tzedekah folder, good idea! Kim On Jan 7, 2008 2:26 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Thanks, Hanoch. I just had a minute to check out this website and it is > so good what this fund is doing for the victims of terror. We hear so much > about victims of terror not only in Israel, but assassinations in Pakistan, > and mindless shootings in our country, it is hard not to become insensitive, > not consciously of course?but just not take a lot to heart because it is > happening all over our globe. It is looking at websites such as this one > that can give that personal touch that we need to get in touch with real > people and real feelings of how horrible and difficult it must be to be > faced with situations such as this?this baseless hatred must be battled with > baseless love. > > > > Thanks again and shalom, > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *YoungBarzel at aol.com > *Sent:* Monday, December 31, 2007 9:03 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Check out OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the > ShatteredLives of Israel's Terror > > > > Shalom to all - > > > > The One Family Fund does wonderful work for the victims of terror. > Please pass this around, and see if we can help those who need our help... > > Hanoch > > Click here: OneFamily Fund - Rebuilding the Shattered Lives of Israel's > Terror Victims > > > > ------------------------------ > > See AOL's top rated recipesand easy > ways to stay in shapefor winter. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/ae480cab/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:37:52 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:37:52 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Intro from Raymond? In-Reply-To: <300069.36985.qm@web57111.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <0JU800E5AWTL5GC0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <300069.36985.qm@web57111.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801081437r6ce032e3t85b827f78ed301@mail.gmail.com> Rick, Beautiful pictures! Can you tell us more about the tell Dan Springs? Kim On Jan 6, 2008 5:36 PM, Tammy & Bruce Croley wrote: > Hey Raymond, > Did I miss your introduction.......sorry if I did. Where are you from? > I am from Alabama. It's always interesting for me to find out where we > are all located. Thanks for your posts today. > Shalom, > Tammy > > *Raymond Selg * wrote: > > * * > *Someday!* > * * > > ------------------------------ > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of * > carlson_john at bellsouth.net > *Sent:* Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:13 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Land > > Very beautiful Rick. Someday man. > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij < > rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com>: -------------- > > sorry, try again. > > > On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: > > > *Thanks but what s the password?* > > ------------------------------ > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ > mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] > *On Behalf Of *Rick Gozhanskij > *Sent:* Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Land > > I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite pics from > my home Land Israel. > > http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html > > Rick > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my > every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very > good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely > dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do > only His will." > Rabbi Nachman's > Wisdom 2 > > ------------------------------ > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/a72f50fc/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:40:16 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:40:16 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! In-Reply-To: <004b01c85154$e1516610$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> References: <004b01c85154$e1516610$66012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801081440o6776ece3xde2ef02ae0c9fda0@mail.gmail.com> Beautiful, but I'm glad I'm here where it's warm. Kim On Jan 7, 2008 11:43 AM, Stephen Dennis wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Thought I'd pass on a recent photo of Stephen and I, taken outside our > house this past week. Since then we have had another 40cm+ of snow, but > today it is melting somewhat as the temp. has gone up to +6C. The snow > looks so beautiful, and still fascinates me, after growing up in sunny Cape > Town, South Africa! I'm not fond of the ice though, which will probably > begin forming as the melt refreezes - I seem to slip and slide more than > others! (I sometimes feel like making a t-shirt saying "I'm not from 'round > these parts, eh", as a good excuse for slipping!) > > Sharon > > http://picasaweb.google.com/Strider1000/StephenSharonWinter2008 > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/5d9b5dd9/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:47:43 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:47:43 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet In-Reply-To: <003601c8515d$21cab400$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <03db01c85154$3fac7a70$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> <003601c8515d$21cab400$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801081447y2f950e87odda2d4e4d34b4a3b@mail.gmail.com> Sharon, I will be praying for you. This verse is so fitting. I am in a similar situation. I plan to go back to school in the fall... with HaShem's blessings, of course! Kim On Jan 7, 2008 12:43 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Sharon, Loy and all, > > > > It seems that a number of us have been this scenario with work! I went > back to school when my youngest was five. We registered for school the same > day?she for kindergarten and me for college to finish up my degree. I too > had apprehensions, but thru the grace of HaShem and some hard work on my > part, I made it thru. > > > > Then at age 50, (after losing pretty much everything we had?another > story), I had to change careers, and now over a decade later, having been > laid off from my job except for a total of about 6 weeks this past year, I > am "out there" on a limb again looking for a job when many people my age are > looking at retirement. > > > > But through it all, as you attested, Loy, I know that HaShem holds us in > the palm of His hand. I too will lift you up Sharon and ask that you will > be provided with the schooling you need for what you want to do. My > youngest daughter, the one who I registered for kindergarten when I started > back to school, is a nurse, and loves it. I could not do what she does. We > all have gifts in certain areas. I pray that you will find yours. > > > > May you be blessed with shalom on this the 2nd day of Sabbath, > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > P.S. I loved your pictures BTW! The snow is beautiful, but having lived > in it for many years in Pennsylvania, Missouri and Minnesota, I will stay > with the pictures! Thanks for sending. > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Loy > *Sent:* Monday, January 07, 2008 11:39 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet > > > > *Sharon**, I sooo know the feeling. I did that at 50 yrs of age after > never (almost) having worked (HA HA HA outside the home that is) and without > an education(stopped my education to have a family). Don't worry....HaShem > is supurb at opening doors and holding your hand when no one is there to do > it. I had 5 daughters and my oldest was 30 and youngest 19. Just trust in > the one who "has it all in the palm of His hand". I will be lifting you > up. He IS well able to do ALL things. Love and Blessings, Loy Leorah* > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Stephen Dennis > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Sent:* Monday, January 07, 2008 11:15 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet > > > > Thanks for this verse! I have just handed in my application to do some > study later in the year (nursing), after being at home with my 4 children > for years. (oldest is 24 and youngest is 14 yrs old). I am nervous and > hesitant to venture out into anything, and am really committing my way to > HaShem, that He may establish my footsteps. > > > > Sharon > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Sent:* Monday, January 07, 2008 8:31 AM > > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Today's thought - 29 Tevet > > > > *Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, * > > * This is a great pasuk (verse) - have a wonderful day!* > > * Hanoch > > **By Hashem are a man's footsteps established and He shall favor his way. > Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for Hashem holds his > hand. > ** > Psalm 37:23-24* > > > > ------------------------------ > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/0f02f392/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 8 17:11:04 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:11:04 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch: What you can do to help Joseph? In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801081244p68914c41nd69f7cfb03aabdbe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00eb01c8524b$bea924c0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, I was thinking along the same lines as Kim. In fact I thought that I had mentioned this in an earlier email regarding the Hosea passages. There have to be a few others like you. There is a wonderful rabbi in New York named Rabbi Yidel A. Stein. He was associated with the Cylmer Street Shul (Brisker Shul). The address and contact info that I have are: Congregation Tifereth Israel 491 Bedford Ave. Brooklyn, N.Y. 11211 Study: 718-782-7212 Res: 718-388-2637 He was associated with the Mifalahavat Yisroel Kiruv Rechokim & Outreach World Wide It has been years since I have been in contact with him, but if he is still there, he would be an excellent resource as he believes in the return of the tribes. He is quite an amazing man! I can't believe I did not remember him earlier. Hope you can get in touch with him or at least his congregation.perhaps you will find something in common. Shalom and Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch: What you can do to help Joseph? Hanoch, As many of us non-Jews are finding that we are not alone in our pull towards the One True G-d and His Torah, I feel that you must not be alone in your pull towards us. Maybe you could seek out others who feel as you do and join forces. I know this is a tall order, but doing what the Chabad does for non-observant Jews is my suggestion. Shalom, Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/159bdb02/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 18:05:15 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:05:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow In-Reply-To: <00a701c85242$82dd4ec0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <8CA206A7275251E-1628-2554@MBLK-M26.sysops.aol.com> Hey Betty & group - ??? I am really sorry for sending such a 'downer' email....it just has struck me much harder then I ever would have imagined.? Never even met him, and wouldn't recognize Helan if she passed me in the street.? Yes, Betty, his family is Greek Orthodox, my brother remains Jewish...I'd say more, but Loy would yell at me!? Actually, Helen's mother was a convert to Greek Orthodoxy - from Judaism!? So, according to Halacha - Jewish Law, both Helen and her son who just died are Jewish!!? But she clearly identified as Greek Orthodox (actually the second women in the exact same situation - convert to GO that he's gone out with). ??? It just reminds me to be grateful for what I have right now, today, this moment....and we always lose sight of it. ??? Sorry guys, overly pensive in NYC, ????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 5:04 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hanoch, I am so sorry to hear this.? Death of anyone you love is hard enough, but a child or young person?that has to be the worst, especially if that child is your own. ? You mentioned that they were Greek Orthodox?? I am assuming that it is the faith of the young man?s mother, and not your brother? ? My prayers will be with them as well. ? Thank-you for letting us know, Hanoch. ? Betty/Elisheva ? ? ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow ? Hanoch, My prayers are with them.? There are not many things as hard as burying your own child. Kim On Jan 8, 2008 2:13 PM, wrote: Shalom to all, ??? Every once in a while, something occurs that makes me realize that 'tomorrow isn't guaranteed; that if there was someone I wanted to apologize to, I should do it, and not wait.... ????On New Years Day I wrote about John, the son of the woman my brother lives with, being hit by a truck while crossing a Manhattan Street (New Years Eve) by a drunk driver.? I never met him, and actually, barely know his mother....but I felt so bad when I heard about this accident.? He was in a coma, and was on a respirator.? Well, my brother just called to tell me that John, age 21, died this morning, and they were donating his organs as we were speaking. ???? Since they're Greek Orthodox, the wake is Friday night, with the burial on Shabbat, so I can't even go....I just feel so bad for them.?? ??? Don't wait until tomorrow, we never have any guarantees.... ??? Sorry to share sad news... ?????????????? Hanoch More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ ? _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/97e27b50/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Jan 8 19:01:36 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:01:36 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow In-Reply-To: <8CA206A7275251E-1628-2554@MBLK-M26.sysops.aol.com> References: <00a701c85242$82dd4ec0$643c66c9@bettygivin> <8CA206A7275251E-1628-2554@MBLK-M26.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <008a01c8525b$31263bf0$0200a8c0@marvin> Hanoch, You mention the burial you would not be able to go to on Sabbat. I drew a blank here. Could you remind us as to the Halacha for burial on the Sabbath. It is the same for jew and gentile? I know I have heard this before but I cannot remember how burials are dealt with around the Sabbath. Thanks, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 7:05 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hey Betty & group - I am really sorry for sending such a 'downer' email....it just has struck me much harder then I ever would have imagined. Never even met him, and wouldn't recognize Helan if she passed me in the street. Yes, Betty, his family is Greek Orthodox, my brother remains Jewish...I'd say more, but Loy would yell at me! Actually, Helen's mother was a convert to Greek Orthodoxy - from Judaism! So, according to Halacha - Jewish Law, both Helen and her son who just died are Jewish!! But she clearly identified as Greek Orthodox (actually the second women in the exact same situation - convert to GO that he's gone out with). It just reminds me to be grateful for what I have right now, today, this moment....and we always lose sight of it. Sorry guys, overly pensive in NYC, Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 5:04 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hanoch, I am so sorry to hear this. Death of anyone you love is hard enough, but a child or young person.that has to be the worst, especially if that child is your own. You mentioned that they were Greek Orthodox? I am assuming that it is the faith of the young man's mother, and not your brother? My prayers will be with them as well. Thank-you for letting us know, Hanoch. Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hanoch, My prayers are with them. There are not many things as hard as burying your own child. Kim On Jan 8, 2008 2:13 PM, wrote: Shalom to all, Every once in a while, something occurs that makes me realize that 'tomorrow isn't guaranteed; that if there was someone I wanted to apologize to, I should do it, and not wait.... On New Years Day I wrote about John, the son of the woman my brother lives with, being hit by a truck while crossing a Manhattan Street (New Years Eve) by a drunk driver. I never met him, and actually, barely know his mother....but I felt so bad when I heard about this accident. He was in a coma, and was on a respirator. Well, my brother just called to tell me that John, age 21, died this morning, and they were donating his organs as we were speaking. Since they're Greek Orthodox, the wake is Friday night, with the burial on Shabbat, so I can't even go....I just feel so bad for them. Don't wait until tomorrow, we never have any guarantees.... Sorry to share sad news... Hanoch _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/61a437ee/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 8 19:19:46 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:19:46 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow In-Reply-To: <8CA206A7275251E-1628-2554@MBLK-M26.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <010801c8525d$b8ffd7f0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Hanoch, Please don't be sorry for sending out the email that you did. If you are experiencing sadness, then we want to experience it with you. As much as it hurts, death is a part of life, and when someone dies, we grieve. To me, it is even sadder when there has been an estrangement in the family. And in spite of this estrangement, you have been hit hard and are hurting because you are a sensitive person. Say what you need to say, we are your friends and we love you. My prayers and many others I am sure are with you and your family. May you be comforted and find shalom, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 6:05 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hey Betty & group - I am really sorry for sending such a 'downer' email....it just has struck me much harder then I ever would have imagined. Never even met him, and wouldn't recognize Helan if she passed me in the street. Yes, Betty, his family is Greek Orthodox, my brother remains Jewish...I'd say more, but Loy would yell at me! Actually, Helen's mother was a convert to Greek Orthodoxy - from Judaism! So, according to Halacha - Jewish Law, both Helen and her son who just died are Jewish!! But she clearly identified as Greek Orthodox (actually the second women in the exact same situation - convert to GO that he's gone out with). It just reminds me to be grateful for what I have right now, today, this moment....and we always lose sight of it. Sorry guys, overly pensive in NYC, Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 5:04 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hanoch, I am so sorry to hear this. Death of anyone you love is hard enough, but a child or young person.that has to be the worst, especially if that child is your own. You mentioned that they were Greek Orthodox? I am assuming that it is the faith of the young man's mother, and not your brother? My prayers will be with them as well. Thank-you for letting us know, Hanoch. Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hanoch, My prayers are with them. There are not many things as hard as burying your own child. Kim On Jan 8, 2008 2:13 PM, wrote: Shalom to all, Every once in a while, something occurs that makes me realize that 'tomorrow isn't guaranteed; that if there was someone I wanted to apologize to, I should do it, and not wait.... On New Years Day I wrote about John, the son of the woman my brother lives with, being hit by a truck while crossing a Manhattan Street (New Years Eve) by a drunk driver. I never met him, and actually, barely know his mother....but I felt so bad when I heard about this accident. He was in a coma, and was on a respirator. Well, my brother just called to tell me that John, age 21, died this morning, and they were donating his organs as we were speaking. Since they're Greek Orthodox, the wake is Friday night, with the burial on Shabbat, so I can't even go....I just feel so bad for them. Don't wait until tomorrow, we never have any guarantees.... Sorry to share sad news... Hanoch _____ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/0604a042/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 8 19:20:47 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:20:47 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] "The Torah in Our Church" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010d01c8525d$dd93db70$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Hanoch and all, I think that Herman sent this out before, maybe on the ui list. It is indeed interesting. As I wrote before (and please pardon my error if you receive it now twice), Kim and Roger and I visited Rabbi Radinsky's congregation in Houston and the Flores family invited us over to lunch. I remember that we had a very interesting conversation regarding "Lost Jews," or Lost Tribes. At the time we met them, they had already converted and were teaching others of Hispanic origin. If I am not mistaken, he was still doing research, but he referred to himself as one who had strong reason to believe that he was of the "Maranos,"(his term) or Crypto Jews. As Hanoch brought our, many having undergone forced conversion to Christianity, secretly practiced their faith. I remember Mr. Flores talking about his mother and how she would traditionally bake bread and light candles every Friday night. The U.S. and Mexican presence of those who possibly could trace their roots back to Spain and Portugal and the Spanish inquisition. There is a noted stone in New Mexico which bears Hebrew inscriptions and one of the explanations is that is was inscribed by some of these peoples. Yes, interesting to say the least. I realize that this may have little to do with us as no one is advocating conversion, as was the case here; but nevertheless this is a beautiful and fascinating story that shows how HaShem can move among a whole group of people.a church no less.when their hearts are turned towards Him. An interesting link in case you are interested in learning more is; http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=169 &letter=M There have also been studies relating to the American Indian, especially the Cherokee, regarding the similarities between the Hebrew faith and their own. Joe Good at one point lived among the Cherokee and has a lot of stories to share. Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 6:07 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] "The Torah in Our Church" Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Chodesh Tov (Good Month!). May Shevat be a good month for all of HaSHem's people. Below is an interesting article which brings up (yet another..) subject of my interest - "Lost Jews." My comments are immediately below, followed by the article. B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch This is very interesting (from Aish.com).... I've been reading numerous articles about the descendants of Anusim (those forcibly converted to Christianity) becoming aware of their Jewish heritage. I actually heard a presentation that stated that it's estimated that there are between 2 - 4 MILLION Hispanics in the U.S. and Mexico who either are direct descendants of Anusim (the term "Marrano" which is extremely derogatory, used to be used), or have Jewish ancestors...considering the size of the American Jewish population (about 5 million, using a loose definition), that's a STAGGERING number of potential Returnees to Torah Faith. And that has nothing to do with the numbers in South America...and Brazil is HUGE.....I've begun compiling statistics of these 'potential' or 'exotic' pockets of Jews. Maybe I'll even get around to writing a paper about it, one day....The article is an 'FYI' - it is NOT what I'm advocating for the people on this list - it's a totally different situation... The Torah in Our Church: http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp http://www.aish.com/ See this article online: http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp by Yosef Juarez The amazing story of our church that en masse decided to convert to Judaism. I was born in Honduras, 23 years ago, the oldest of four children. I lived in a neighborhood with all my cousins, on a street named after my mother's ancestors. We attended a church that is non-denominational, but with a strong evangelical bent. When I was three years old, I fell from the second story of my house and dropped head-first onto the concrete, fracturing my skull. I was rushed to the hospital and wasn't moving at all, just gazing off into the distance. The situation was very grave. But then something strange happened. The next day, it was as if nothing had happened. The doctor ordered new x-rays, and there was no sign of any damage -- no fracture, not even a scratch. Due to this, our family grew as religious Christians, and throughout my life I was focused on the service of God. When I was eight years old, we moved to America, which offered better financial opportunities. We settled in a suburb of Houston and looked around for a good church to attend, but nothing seemed as good as what we had back in Honduras. Our old church was based in Honduras, but has branches in U.S. cities that have a sizable Central American and Hispanic population. So together with one other family, we requested that the church send us a minister. They sent us a man named Hector Flores, who at the time was still training to be a minister. And that's how our Houston church started -- in one room in a house. Minister Flores was fascinated with the Holy Temple, and its predecessor the Tabernacle (Mishkan). He had access to books and resources, and he started teaching Torah ideas that were unique in a Christian setting. We would spend months and months delving into aspects of the Torah. The church membership grew steadily, as we were very outreach-oriented. The city was divided up into districts and groups, and we would literally go out into the streets and preach to people. During high school, I studied in my church's discipleship program, where they train young people in leadership skills and how to preach. We'd bring people into the church and provide them with family counseling and programs for all ages. It functioned very much like a family. And we would train the new members to reach out and bring more people to church. Of course, people who came to our church for the first time would wonder why we were discussing Jewish topics, and not preaching so much about the typical teachings of Jesus. But Minister Flores continued on his unique path, and the church eventually split into two congregations. We got our own building and bought land to expand. Hebrew Songs One of the unique customs of our church was something Minister Flores called "festivals of consecration." These were patterned after the festivals in the Torah, where people would bring large donations to fund the church activities. From there it was constant small steps toward Torah: the obligation to tithe, where we'd give 10 percent of our income to church activities. After a while our festivals got assigned Jewish names, like Purim and Shavuot, corresponding to the Jewish holiday they fell close to. This was definitely not consistent with mainstream Christianity. And the closer we got to Torah, the more some congregants became uncomfortable and started to drop out. It was a filtering process. Unbeknownst to us, behind the scenes, Minister Flores was going through an intense personal transition. After much research, he discovered many inconsistencies and contradictions in the New Testament, making the tenets of Christianity untenable. Minister Flores started secretly going to a rabbi, to pester him with questions. Then he'd come back and teach us, slowly getting us closer and closer to Judaism. Soon after, Minister Flores made the decision to convert to Judaism. But he struggled to find a way to tell us, as he didn't want to tear down Christianity without being able to offer us an alternative. So he kept teaching Torah, but in a way that was as subtle as possible. He gradually peeled away the things that were wrong and got us closer to Torah. Our church started replacing Jesus' name with Jewish, Hebrew names of God, and the songs became Hebrew songs. We began to incorporate real Jewish traditions into our festivals, and we even got a Torah scroll for the church. At that point we resembled more of a Jews for Jesus group, in the sense that we were Christians with a lot of Jewish traditions. The difference, of course, was that we were moving in the direction toward authentic Judaism, not the other way around. During this process, our biggest resource for information was Aish.com, and its Spanish sister site. At one point the church printed out reams of Aish.com articles on all the holidays, and gave a binder of these articles to each family. Some of the church members became resistant to all these changes, and a number of people dropped out. There were occasional confrontations where people would question the minister, "How far are you going with all this?" And he would simply answer, "As far as the Torah takes us." Revelation About six months after Minister Flores made the private decision to convert, my mother had been at a Jewish bookstore and bought the book, "The Real Messiah" by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. This book lays out all the evidence for why Jews don't believe in Jesus, in a very scholarly and convincing way. We found that a lot of Christian teachings were based on mistranslations or taking biblical verses out of context. So my mother suspected there was more to this "Torah teaching" than the minister had been letting on. Every Sunday after services, the entire congregation would go together to the park. One Sunday, my mother confronted the minister: "You know more than you're telling us, don't you." He would never lie or deny such a direct question, so he saw this was the right time to reveal his plan to convert. That Sunday, we all stayed at the park for hours and hours, discussing and explaining, until long after dark. At that point, about 100 people wanted to keep studying with the possibility of conversion. But many others took the choice of becoming Bnei Noach, following the seven pillars of human civilization that the Torah presents for non-Jews to observe. Minister Flores explained that any human being who faithfully observes these laws earns a proper place in heaven, and this was an appealing alternative for many church members. My mother, however, wanted to stick with the group who was interested in conversion. So we kept on learning, and eventually our group decided to attend Shabbat services. So one Saturday morning our entire congregation showed up at the United Orthodox Synagogues. It was a bit of a shock to the community, because such a huge influx upset the social balance. But the leader of the synagogue, Rabbi Joseph Radinsky, was like an angel to us; his kindness and sincerity is clear to anyone who knows him. When they saw things were serious, the Houston community sent a Spanish-speaking rabbi, Jose Gomez, to help each family clarify the right path. (He himself had converted 10 years earlier in Houston along with his entire family -- parents, siblings, aunts and uncles.) As expected, all of this caused a real stir in the Christian community in Houston. First in the Family Minister Flores was amongst the first to convert, and since then many of our church members have converted, while others are in the process. My own conversion was finalized a year ago, and my mother and siblings are still in the process. I chose the name "Yosef" because in the Bible, Joseph was the first of his family to go down to Egypt. He established himself and was able to help bring the rest of his family along. My mother says that in our path to conversion, I have been sent ahead as our family's "Yosef." After my conversion, I came to Israel and was really amazed. I saw a variety of Jews, and a whole different side of Judaism. There was something special about everything. I even found myself taking pictures of grass and rocks! I felt truly Jewish for the first time. I started doing research into my roots, because I knew that this awakening to Judaism comes from a very deep place. I found out that on a voyage to the New World in 1502, Christopher Columbus reached the Bay Islands on the coast of Honduras, which became part of the Spanish empire. Jews undoubtedly came to Honduras at this time, on the heels of the Spanish Inquisition when many Jews "converted to Christianity" but secretly remained Jewish. I'm anxious to find out more about my ancestors, but it's very hard to track. So where am I today? I am studying at the Aish HaTorah yeshiva in the Old City of Jerusalem and I love it. I'm so enthusiastic about everything that I learn, and cannot wait to share it with all my friends and family back home. At this point, my plans for the future are pretty open. I want to continue to study Torah, finish my undergraduate degree, and see what opportunities develop. But one thing I know for sure: I am committed to reaching out to my fellow Jews. If I was fortunate enough to discover this gold mine of spiritual wealth and fulfillment, then those who were born Jewish surely must be given that opportunity. And who knows -- just as Aish.com spurred my Jewish growth, maybe this article will be the spark that someone else has been waiting for. This article can also be read at: http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/f8e5f90f/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 19:47:46 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:47:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow In-Reply-To: <8CA206A7275251E-1628-2554@MBLK-M26.sysops.aol.com> References: <00a701c85242$82dd4ec0$643c66c9@bettygivin> <8CA206A7275251E-1628-2554@MBLK-M26.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hanoch, Please feel free to share anything that is troubling you. We are family. We share joy and we share grief with one another. I'm so sorry to hear that this young man died. And I feel terribly sorry for his mother. You a right to remind us to cherish every second we have with our loved ones - to appreciate what we have right now, today, this moment. Pat To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrowDate: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:05:15 -0500From: youngbarzel at aol.comHey Betty & group - I am really sorry for sending such a 'downer' email....it just has struck me much harder then I ever would have imagined. Never even met him, and wouldn't recognize Helan if she passed me in the street. Yes, Betty, his family is Greek Orthodox, my brother remains Jewish...I'd say more, but Loy would yell at me! Actually, Helen's mother was a convert to Greek Orthodoxy - from Judaism! So, according to Halacha - Jewish Law, both Helen and her son who just died are Jewish!! But she clearly identified as Greek Orthodox (actually the second women in the exact same situation - convert to GO that he's gone out with). It just reminds me to be grateful for what I have right now, today, this moment....and we always lose sight of it. Sorry guys, overly pensive in NYC, Hanoch-----Original Message-----From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSent: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 5:04 pmSubject: RE: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hanoch, I am so sorry to hear this. Death of anyone you love is hard enough, but a child or young person?that has to be the worst, especially if that child is your own. You mentioned that they were Greek Orthodox? I am assuming that it is the faith of the young man?s mother, and not your brother? My prayers will be with them as well. Thank-you for letting us know, Hanoch. Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvaradoSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:19 PMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hanoch,My prayers are with them. There are not many things as hard as burying your own child.Kim On Jan 8, 2008 2:13 PM, wrote: Shalom to all, Every once in a while, something occurs that makes me realize that 'tomorrow isn't guaranteed; that if there was someone I wanted to apologize to, I should do it, and not wait.... On New Years Day I wrote about John, the son of the woman my brother lives with, being hit by a truck while crossing a Manhattan Street (New Years Eve) by a drunk driver. I never met him, and actually, barely know his mother....but I felt so bad when I heard about this accident. He was in a coma, and was on a respirator. Well, my brother just called to tell me that John, age 21, died this morning, and they were donating his organs as we were speaking. Since they're Greek Orthodox, the wake is Friday night, with the burial on Shabbat, so I can't even go....I just feel so bad for them. Don't wait until tomorrow, we never have any guarantees.... Sorry to share sad news... Hanoch More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/eef6f25e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 20:01:13 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 21:01:13 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "The Torah in Our Church" In-Reply-To: <010d01c8525d$dd93db70$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <010d01c8525d$dd93db70$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: I love this story so much, Betty and Hanoch. Isn't the photo of "Yoseph learning Torah" wonderful? I've never seen a sweeter expression than the one on his precious face. How blessed you, Roger and Kim are, Betty, to have met this inspiring family! Pat From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] "The Torah in Our Church"Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:20:47 -0600 Dear Hanoch and all, I think that Herman sent this out before, maybe on the ui list. It is indeed interesting. As I wrote before (and please pardon my error if you receive it now twice), Kim and Roger and I visited Rabbi Radinsky?s congregation in Houston and the Flores family invited us over to lunch. I remember that we had a very interesting conversation regarding ?Lost Jews,? or Lost Tribes. At the time we met them, they had already converted and were teaching others of Hispanic origin. If I am not mistaken, he was still doing research, but he referred to himself as one who had strong reason to believe that he was of the ?Maranos,?(his term) or Crypto Jews. As Hanoch brought our, many having undergone forced conversion to Christianity, secretly practiced their faith. I remember Mr. Flores talking about his mother and how she would traditionally bake bread and light candles every Friday night. The U.S. and Mexican presence of those who possibly could trace their roots back to Spain and Portugal and the Spanish inquisition. There is a noted stone in New Mexico which bears Hebrew inscriptions and one of the explanations is that is was inscribed by some of these peoples. Yes, interesting to say the least. I realize that this may have little to do with us as no one is advocating conversion, as was the case here; but nevertheless this is a beautiful and fascinating story that shows how HaShem can move among a whole group of people?a church no less?when their hearts are turned towards Him. An interesting link in case you are interested in learning more is; http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=169&letter=M There have also been studies relating to the American Indian, especially the Cherokee, regarding the similarities between the Hebrew faith and their own. Joe Good at one point lived among the Cherokee and has a lot of stories to share. Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.comSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 6:07 AMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] "The Torah in Our Church" Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Chodesh Tov (Good Month!). May Shevat be a good month for all of HaSHem's people. Below is an interesting article which brings up (yet another..) subject of my interest - "Lost Jews." My comments are immediately below, followed by the article. B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch This is very interesting (from Aish.com).... I've been reading numerous articles about the descendants of Anusim (those forcibly converted to Christianity) becoming aware of their Jewish heritage. I actually heard a presentation that stated that it's estimated that there are between 2 - 4 MILLION Hispanics in the U.S. and Mexico who either are direct descendants of Anusim (the term "Marrano" which is extremely derogatory, used to be used), or have Jewish ancestors...considering the size of the American Jewish population (about 5 million, using a loose definition), that's a STAGGERING number of potential Returnees to Torah Faith. And that has nothing to do with the numbers in South America...and Brazil is HUGE.....I've begun compiling statistics of these 'potential' or 'exotic' pockets of Jews. Maybe I'll even get around to writing a paper about it, one day....The article is an 'FYI' - it is NOT what I'm advocating for the people on this list - it's a totally different situation... The Torah in Our Church: http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp See this article online:http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp by Yosef Juarez The amazing story of our church that en masse decided to convert to Judaism. I was born in Honduras, 23 years ago, the oldest of four children. I lived in a neighborhood with all my cousins, on a street named after my mother's ancestors. We attended a church that is non-denominational, but with a strong evangelical bent. When I was three years old, I fell from the second story of my house and dropped head-first onto the concrete, fracturing my skull. I was rushed to the hospital and wasn't moving at all, just gazing off into the distance. The situation was very grave. But then something strange happened. The next day, it was as if nothing had happened. The doctor ordered new x-rays, and there was no sign of any damage -- no fracture, not even a scratch. Due to this, our family grew as religious Christians, and throughout my life I was focused on the service of God. When I was eight years old, we moved to America, which offered better financial opportunities. We settled in a suburb of Houston and looked around for a good church to attend, but nothing seemed as good as what we had back in Honduras. Our old church was based in Honduras, but has branches in U.S. cities that have a sizable Central American and Hispanic population. So together with one other family, we requested that the church send us a minister. They sent us a man named Hector Flores, who at the time was still training to be a minister. And that's how our Houston church started -- in one room in a house. Minister Flores was fascinated with the Holy Temple, and its predecessor the Tabernacle (Mishkan). He had access to books and resources, and he started teaching Torah ideas that were unique in a Christian setting. We would spend months and months delving into aspects of the Torah. The church membership grew steadily, as we were very outreach-oriented. The city was divided up into districts and groups, and we would literally go out into the streets and preach to people. During high school, I studied in my church's discipleship program, where they train young people in leadership skills and how to preach. We'd bring people into the church and provide them with family counseling and programs for all ages. It functioned very much like a family. And we would train the new members to reach out and bring more people to church. Of course, people who came to our church for the first time would wonder why we were discussing Jewish topics, and not preaching so much about the typical teachings of Jesus. But Minister Flores continued on his unique path, and the church eventually split into two congregations. We got our own building and bought land to expand. Hebrew Songs One of the unique customs of our church was something Minister Flores called "festivals of consecration." These were patterned after the festivals in the Torah, where people would bring large donations to fund the church activities. From there it was constant small steps toward Torah: the obligation to tithe, where we'd give 10 percent of our income to church activities. After a while our festivals got assigned Jewish names, like Purim and Shavuot, corresponding to the Jewish holiday they fell close to. This was definitely not consistent with mainstream Christianity. And the closer we got to Torah, the more some congregants became uncomfortable and started to drop out. It was a filtering process. Unbeknownst to us, behind the scenes, Minister Flores was going through an intense personal transition. After much research, he discovered many inconsistencies and contradictions in the New Testament, making the tenets of Christianity untenable. Minister Flores started secretly going to a rabbi, to pester him with questions. Then he'd come back and teach us, slowly getting us closer and closer to Judaism. Soon after, Minister Flores made the decision to convert to Judaism. But he struggled to find a way to tell us, as he didn't want to tear down Christianity without being able to offer us an alternative. So he kept teaching Torah, but in a way that was as subtle as possible. He gradually peeled away the things that were wrong and got us closer to Torah. Our church started replacing Jesus' name with Jewish, Hebrew names of God, and the songs became Hebrew songs. We began to incorporate real Jewish traditions into our festivals, and we even got a Torah scroll for the church. At that point we resembled more of a Jews for Jesus group, in the sense that we were Christians with a lot of Jewish traditions. The difference, of course, was that we were moving in the direction toward authentic Judaism, not the other way around. During this process, our biggest resource for information was Aish.com, and its Spanish sister site. At one point the church printed out reams of Aish.com articles on all the holidays, and gave a binder of these articles to each family. Some of the church members became resistant to all these changes, and a number of people dropped out. There were occasional confrontations where people would question the minister, "How far are you going with all this?" And he would simply answer, "As far as the Torah takes us." Revelation About six months after Minister Flores made the private decision to convert, my mother had been at a Jewish bookstore and bought the book, "The Real Messiah" by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. This book lays out all the evidence for why Jews don't believe in Jesus, in a very scholarly and convincing way. We found that a lot of Christian teachings were based on mistranslations or taking biblical verses out of context. So my mother suspected there was more to this "Torah teaching" than the minister had been letting on. Every Sunday after services, the entire congregation would go together to the park. One Sunday, my mother confronted the minister: "You know more than you're telling us, don't you." He would never lie or deny such a direct question, so he saw this was the right time to reveal his plan to convert. That Sunday, we all stayed at the park for hours and hours, discussing and explaining, until long after dark. At that point, about 100 people wanted to keep studying with the possibility of conversion. But many others took the choice of becoming Bnei Noach, following the seven pillars of human civilization that the Torah presents for non-Jews to observe. Minister Flores explained that any human being who faithfully observes these laws earns a proper place in heaven, and this was an appealing alternative for many church members. My mother, however, wanted to stick with the group who was interested in conversion. So we kept on learning, and eventually our group decided to attend Shabbat services. So one Saturday morning our entire congregation showed up at the United Orthodox Synagogues. It was a bit of a shock to the community, because such a huge influx upset the social balance. But the leader of the synagogue, Rabbi Joseph Radinsky, was like an angel to us; his kindness and sincerity is clear to anyone who knows him. When they saw things were serious, the Houston community sent a Spanish-speaking rabbi, Jose Gomez, to help each family clarify the right path. (He himself had converted 10 years earlier in Houston along with his entire family -- parents, siblings, aunts and uncles.) As expected, all of this caused a real stir in the Christian community in Houston. First in the Family Minister Flores was amongst the first to convert, and since then many of our church members have converted, while others are in the process. My own conversion was finalized a year ago, and my mother and siblings are still in the process. I chose the name "Yosef" because in the Bible, Joseph was the first of his family to go down to Egypt. He established himself and was able to help bring the rest of his family along. My mother says that in our path to conversion, I have been sent ahead as our family's "Yosef." After my conversion, I came to Israel and was really amazed. I saw a variety of Jews, and a whole different side of Judaism. There was something special about everything. I even found myself taking pictures of grass and rocks! I felt truly Jewish for the first time. I started doing research into my roots, because I knew that this awakening to Judaism comes from a very deep place. I found out that on a voyage to the New World in 1502, Christopher Columbus reached the Bay Islands on the coast of Honduras, which became part of the Spanish empire. Jews undoubtedly came to Honduras at this time, on the heels of the Spanish Inquisition when many Jews "converted to Christianity" but secretly remained Jewish. I'm anxious to find out more about my ancestors, but it's very hard to track. So where am I today? I am studying at the Aish HaTorah yeshiva in the Old City of Jerusalem and I love it. I'm so enthusiastic about everything that I learn, and cannot wait to share it with all my friends and family back home. At this point, my plans for the future are pretty open. I want to continue to study Torah, finish my undergraduate degree, and see what opportunities develop. But one thing I know for sure: I am committed to reaching out to my fellow Jews. If I was fortunate enough to discover this gold mine of spiritual wealth and fulfillment, then those who were born Jewish surely must be given that opportunity. And who knows -- just as Aish.com spurred my Jewish growth, maybe this article will be the spark that someone else has been waiting for. This article can also be read at: http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/The_Torah_in_Our_Church.asp Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/49da4d38/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 20:29:37 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 21:29:37 EST Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20[Dialogue]=20=E2=80=9CMegillat=20Bush=20-=20The=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?Bush=20Scroll=E2=80=9D=20=20on=20=20UTN?= Message-ID: Amen! Although it never worked for that scum Jimmy Carter..... Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/520c5e61/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 20:38:23 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 21:38:23 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch: What you can do to help Joseph? Message-ID: Hey Kim - Glad to see you aren't setting your expectations of me too high!! LOL But you are right, I need to begin to reach out, and I've been wrestling with the best ways (and most likely supporters) to actually do that. My suggestion for now, is to through it out to our group, and let me start gathering some ideas, okay? I'll throw the same question to as many people as I can, so I can develop the best strategy for success. Kim, can I have your permission to repost your email on another list? Okay group - ideas??? :-) B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/61c2224e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 20:41:23 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 21:41:23 -0500 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_[Dialogue]_=93Megillat_Bush_-_The_Bush_Scroll=94__on?= =?Windows-1252?Q?__UTN?= In-Reply-To: <622005.77923.qm@web57114.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <622005.77923.qm@web57114.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well said, Tammy, thank you! If Bush doesn't heed Hashem's Words, it worries me what will happen to the USA. Pat Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:16:59 -0800From: tsbcroley at yahoo.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] ?Megillat Bush - The Bush Scroll? on UTNHi Everyone, Many of you may have already seen Rabbi Richman on "The Universal Torah Network" talking about the scroll that has been prepared for presentation to President Bush, but if you haven't please take the time to view this program. It is worded very strongly.......as well it should be. If I were President Bush and I knew anything about the Bible.....I would certainly think twice about what I was in Israel to do. Let's continue to pray that HaShem will open the President's eyes and he will heed to the words contained in this scroll.Shalom,Tammy ?It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I place my every movement in G-d?s hands, asking that I do only His will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom 2 Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/fb563c05/attachment.html From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 20:35:50 2008 From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:35:50 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] the Land In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801081437r6ce032e3t85b827f78ed301@mail.gmail.com> References: <0JU800E5AWTL5GC0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <300069.36985.qm@web57111.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1c8dbb6e0801081437r6ce032e3t85b827f78ed301@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Kim, The photo of the spring or river is located in the Dan region (North). I don't remember the name of the place and I believe it was some kind of park, you could hike there. The place was really beautiful and one thing I will not forget about that place was the 100 foot tall cedar trees, like a huge forest. Rick On Jan 8, 2008, at 4:37 PM, kim alvarado wrote: > Rick, > > Beautiful pictures! Can you tell us more about the tell Dan Springs? > > Kim > > On Jan 6, 2008 5:36 PM, Tammy & Bruce Croley > wrote: > Hey Raymond, > Did I miss your introduction.......sorry if I did. Where are > you from? I am from Alabama. It's always interesting for me to > find out where we are all located. Thanks for your posts today. > Shalom, > Tammy > > Raymond Selg wrote: > > Someday! > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:13 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land > > Very beautiful Rick. Someday man. > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from Rick Gozhanskij < > rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com>: -------------- > > sorry, try again. > > > On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Raymond Selg wrote: > > > Thanks but what s the password? > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue- > bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:33 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Land > > I thought you guys might would like to see a few of my favorite > pics from my home Land Israel. > > http://homepage.mac.com/hadavar/PhotoAlbum3.html > > Rick > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It is very good to rely on G-d completely. As each day begins, I > place my every movement in G-d's hands, asking that I do only His > will. This is very good and I have no worries. Whether or not > things go right, I am completely dependant upon G-d. If He desires > otherwise, I have already asked that I do only His will." > Rabbi > Nachman's Wisdom 2 > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/26b31396/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 21:03:12 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:03:12 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! Message-ID: Hi Stephen & Sharon, Thanks for forwarding the pics - I haven't seen THAT much snow in years! When I was a kid, we used to have a major snowstorm, at least once per year. But the weather in NYC has been very strange - it was 19 degrees last week, and today hit the 60's! But Sharon, I did want to mention that I got to go to Cape Town 2 years ago, with my last job, and those mountains and the clouds in the morning - WOW; it's got to be one of the most beautiful places on Earth! Best regards, Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/2c359817/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 21:07:05 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:07:05 EST Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Message-ID: Hi Marvin - We (Jews) don't bury on Shabbat or a Yom Tov (holiday). If at all possible, they will rush to bury the body on the afternoon before, to avoid having to keep the body until afterwards. In Israel, they actually try to bury on the very same DAY the person died, if at all possible. Sighhh...I am very rusty on those Halachot (laws), but if you'd like, I can look stuff up for you. Take care and thanks for writing - Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/d365ac21/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 21:09:38 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:09:38 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch: What you can do to help Joseph? Message-ID: Dear Betty - I will call him up - thanks! Love ya, Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/40fe10d8/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 8 21:18:57 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:18:57 EST Subject: [Dialogue] the Land Message-ID: Hi Rick - If I'm not mistaken, it's called the Banyas (sp?), and is an absolute MUST see! Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/c0a3e2f0/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 21:43:02 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:43:02 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to share In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801081208w16ef4cf7gf398cb7cd83b9f45@mail.gmail.com> References: <010820081647.19134.4783A915000A285300004ABE22230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <1c8dbb6e0801081208w16ef4cf7gf398cb7cd83b9f45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Love it!!! Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:08:48 -0600From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to shareAmen, very fitting for what has been on my mind as of late.Kim On Jan 8, 2008 10:47 AM, wrote: Amein! --John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Tamara Michael" < tmich33 at bellsouth.net>: -------------- Psalms 119:165 (165) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/0cd099de/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 22:03:28 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:03:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Steven Spielberg Jewish Film Archive Message-ID: Contains incredible footage of Brother Judah's history. http://w3.castup.net/JFA/FilmsScreen.asp?NFilm=format%3Dwm%26s%3D8F442B3337034892ACC92596201F5E81%26ci%3D17509%26ak%3Dnull%26ClipMediaID%3D23331 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/99f8fab2/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 22:37:44 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:37:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Science vs God (really a good one) I thought youwould like this. In-Reply-To: <1158055377-1199804846-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1181607014-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1158055377-1199804846-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1181607014-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: This is great, John!> To: uilist at unitedisrael.org; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:04:11 +0000> CC: > Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Science vs God (really a good one) I thought youwould like this.> > The following is a very good philosophical discussion. It was written with a Christian overture but that is not important to the underlying point so please disregard that part. I think the argument it self is something important for us all to understand concerning G-d.> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T> > -----Original Message-----> From: "AMEDEE, SUSAN W" > > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:16:17 > To:> Subject: Science vs God (really a good one) I thought youwould like this.> > > A Keeper! J > > > > > > "Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist > professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his > new students to stand. > "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?" > > > "Yes sir," the student says. > > "So you believe in God?" > > "Absolutely." > > "Is God good?" > > "Sure! God's good." > > "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" > > "Yes." > > "Are you good or evil?" > > "The Bible says I'm evil." > > The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible !" He considers for a > moment. > "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you > can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?" > > "Yes sir, I wo uld." > > > "So you're good...!" > > "I wouldn't say that." > > "But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. > Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't." > > > The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, > does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he > prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer > that one?" > > The student remains silent. > > "No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water > from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. > > > "Let's start again, young fella Is God good?" > > "Er...yes," the student says. > "Is Satan good?" > > The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No." > > "Then where does Satan come from?" > > The student: "From...God..." > > "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in > this world?" > > "Yes, s ir." > > "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?" > > > "Yes." > > "So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created > everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to > the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil." > > Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: "Is > there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, > do they exist in this world?" > > The student: "Yes." > > "So who created them?" > > The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his > question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the > lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is > mesmerized. > > "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus > Christ, son?" > > The student's voice is confident: "Yes, professor, I do." > > The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to > identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?" > > "No sir. I've never seen Him" > > "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" > > "No, sir, I have not." > > "Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your > Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God > for that matter?" > > "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." > > "Yet you still believe in him?" > > "Yes." > > "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, > science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?" > > "Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith." > > "Yes, faith," the professor repeats. < FONT face=Arial > color=#c00000>"And that is the problem science has with God. There is no > evidence, only faith." > > The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his > ow n. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?" > > "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." > > "And is there such a thing as cold?" > > "Yes, son, there's cold too." > > "No sir, there isn't." > > The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room > suddenly becomes very quiet. > > > The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more > heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat > or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to > 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further > after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able > to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is > susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what > makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) > is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word w e use > to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can > measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the > opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." > > Silence acr oss the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, > sounding like a hammer. > > "What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?" > > "Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it > isn't darkness?" > > "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence > of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, > flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and > it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the > word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make > darkness darker, wouldn't you?" > > The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him and says, > "This is going to be a good semester... So what point are you making, > young man?" > > "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to > start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed." > > The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can > you explain how?" > > "You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You > argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad > God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, somethin g > we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses > electricity and magnetism, but has never been seen, much less fully > understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be > ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. > Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it." > > "Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved > from a monkey?" > > "I f you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, > yes, of course I do" > > "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" > > The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes > where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed. > > "Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and > cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you > not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a > preacher?" > > The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion > has subsided. > > "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let > me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the > room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's > brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. "Is there anyone here who > has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the profess or's brain, > touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done > so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, > demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due > respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust > your lectures, sir?" > > Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his > face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man > answers "I guess you'll have to take them on faith." > > "Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with > life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?" > > Now uncert ain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it > everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is > in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These > manifestations are nothing else but evil." > > To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it > does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is > just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the > absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what > happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's > like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that > comes when there is no light." > > The professor sat down. > > Pass this on if you love Jesus. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/d5b97d43/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 8 22:43:48 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:43:48 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Science vs God (really a good one) I thoughtyouwould like this. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <019501c8527a$39934660$643c66c9@bettygivin> Yes, it is! Wouldn't it have been a riot to have been in that classroom if only for that day?! Thanks for sharing, John. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:38 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Fw: Science vs God (really a good one) I thoughtyouwould like this. This is great, John! > To: uilist at unitedisrael.org; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:04:11 +0000 > CC: > Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Science vs God (really a good one) I thought youwould like this. > > The following is a very good philosophical discussion. It was written with a Christian overture but that is not important to the underlying point so please disregard that part. I think the argument it self is something important for us all to understand concerning G-d. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: "AMEDEE, SUSAN W" > > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:16:17 > To: > Subject: Science vs God (really a good one) I thought youwould like this. > > > A Keeper! J > > > > > > "Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist > professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his > new students to stand. > "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?" > > > "Yes sir," the student says. > > "So you believe in God?" > > "Absolutely." > > "Is God good?" > > "Sure! God's good." > > "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" > > "Yes." > > "Are you good or evil?" > > "The Bible says I'm evil." > > The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible !" He considers for a > moment. > "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you > can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?" > > "Yes sir, I wo uld." > > > "So you're good...!" > > "I wouldn't say that." > > "But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. > Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't." > > > The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, > does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he > prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer > that one?" > > The student remains silent. > > "No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water > from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. > > > "Let's start again, young fella Is God good?" > > "Er...yes," the student says. > "Is Satan good?" > > The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No." > > "Then where does Satan come from?" > > The student: "From...God..." > > "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in > this world?" > > "Yes, s ir." > > "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?" > > > "Yes." > > "So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created > everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to > the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil." > > Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: "Is > there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, > do they exist in this world?" > > The student: "Yes." > > "So who created them?" > > The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his > question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the > lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is > mesmerized. > > "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus > Christ, son?" > > The student's voice is confident: "Yes, professor, I do." > > The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to > identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?" > > "No sir. I've never seen Him" > > "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" > > "No, sir, I have not." > > "Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your > Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God > for that matter?" > > "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." > > "Yet you still believe in him?" > > "Yes." > > "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, > science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?" > > "Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith." > > "Yes, faith," the professor repeats. < FONT face=Arial > color=#c00000>"And that is the problem science has with God. There is no > evidence, only faith." > > The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his > ow n. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?" > > "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." > > "And is there such a thing as cold?" > > "Yes, son, there's cold too." > > "No sir, there isn't." > > The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room > suddenly becomes very quiet. > > > The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more > heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat > or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to > 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further > after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able > to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is > susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what > makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) > is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word w e use > to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can > measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the > opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." > > Silence acr oss the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, > sounding like a hammer. > > "What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?" > > "Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it > isn't darkness?" > > "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence > of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, > flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and > it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the > word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make > darkness darker, wouldn't you?" > > The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him and says, > "This is going to be a good semester... So what point are you making, > young man?" > > "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to > start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed." > > The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can > you explain how?" > > "You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You > argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad > God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, somethin g > we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses > electricity and magnetism, but has never been seen, much less fully > understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be > ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. > Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it." > > "Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved > from a monkey?" > > "I f you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, > yes, of course I do" > > "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" > > The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes > where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed. > > "Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and > cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you > not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a > preacher?" > > The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion > has subsided. > > "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let > me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the > room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's > brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. "Is there anyone here who > has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the profess or's brain, > touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done > so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, > demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due > respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust > your lectures, sir?" > > Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his > face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man > answers "I guess you'll have to take them on faith." > > "Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with > life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?" > > Now uncert ain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it > everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is > in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These > manifestations are nothing else but evil." > > To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it > does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is > just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the > absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what > happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's > like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that > comes when there is no light." > > The professor sat down. > > Pass this on if you love Jesus. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/97d61240/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 8 23:11:27 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:11:27 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Rosh Chodesh (New Moon) Shevat Message-ID: <01aa01c8527e$16760790$643c66c9@bettygivin> Tonight marks the New Moon on the observed calendar.the month of Shevat. Just wanted to mark it and wish you all a good month! It seems that Shevat is supposed to have special significance, but I have forgotten what it is, other than remembering that Tu b'Shevat (The Feast of Trees) is this month.This is a lovely little festival where various fruits of the trees are tasted and shared and blessings of thanksgiving are cited. Has anyone received news of the sighting of the New Moon in Israel? Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/ae92b896/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 8 23:35:30 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:35:30 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Prayer Message-ID: <01c201c85281$7276b460$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear friends, I intended on attaching a copy of this beautiful prayer in my last email. It seems very appropriate in view of all that is going on in these days. The very language touches so closely on so much of what has been on the dialogue lately. Normally, some of us have said it at sundown the eve of Rosh Chodesh by the Observed Calendar. I realize it is past sundown, but thought that some of you who are still up might want to pray it. Or perhaps when we get the word of the sighting of the new moon in Israel, anyone who chooses could say it then. Blessings to all of you! Betty/Elisheva A Monthly UIWU Biblical Prayer for Redemption This Biblical Prayer was commissioned and inaugurated by David Horowitz in 1991. It is recited by many, both Jews and non-Jews, at sunset, as New Moon/Month begins, as based on the standard Jewish calendar. It is an expression of our solidarity and shared faith, in accordance with Malachi 3:16-18. God of gods, Lord of lords, the Great, the Mighty, the Awesome, whose Name alone is YHVH, the Eternal God of Hosts, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Our Father, we fervently call upon You. Ah Lord God, we are but dust and ashes! We are ashamed and embarrassed to lift our faces to You, for our iniquities have risen above our heads, and our guilt has grown even to the heavens. It is not on account of our own righteousness that we offer these supplications before You, but on account of Your great compassion. What are we? What is our life? What is our goodness? What is our righteousness? What is our strength? In Your presence, Oh God, we are as nothing. Yet You have declared Yourself merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness and faithfulness. You made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm. Nothing is too difficult for You. You are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, keeping covenant forever, showing mercy to thousands who fear Your Name and keep Your Commandments. Now for a brief moment you have shown grace to us in leaving an escaped remnant who sigh and cry over all the sins of Israel and the nations. You have declared, YHVH, our God, RETURN TO ME, AND I WILL RETURN TO YOU. We do RETURN O God! We fervently call upon You, we cry out to You, to SEND THE REDEEMER, to regather the lost sheep of all Israel, to crush the evil ways of the wicked. We long for that day when the Torah will go forth from Zion to all the nations, when darkness will flee away, when the veil will be removed from all Israel and the nations, when the saints of the Most High will receive the Kingdom, when You will destroy the destroyers of the earth, when wars will be forever abolished, when justice and righteousness will fill the earth as the waters cover the sea, when YHVH will be King over all the earth, and His Name One. Oh YHVH our God, God of Abraham Your friend, we call upon You together on this day, at this hour. Oh YHVH hear! Oh YHVH forgive! Oh YHVH hearken and act! Oh YHVH delay not! For Your sake and for Zion, and for Your people, and for all humankind. In the appointed TIME you will hasten it, for it will certainly come, it will not delay. We bow the knee, we sigh and cry, we turn to You, YHVH, our Rock and our Redeemer. Hear our prayer! Reading and Meditation: Zechariah 1:2-4 Malachi 3:16-24 (Hebrew) Daniel 9:1-19; chapters 2 & 7 Ezra 9:5-15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/3f496fe8/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 23:47:28 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:47:28 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Rosh Chodesh (New Moon) Shevat In-Reply-To: <01aa01c8527e$16760790$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <01aa01c8527e$16760790$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801082147o15271e68k25a026d50cb15d7f@mail.gmail.com> I haven't gotten the report yet, but it was expected tonight. On Jan 8, 2008 11:11 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Tonight marks the New Moon on the observed calendar?the month of Shevat. > Just wanted to mark it and wish you all a good month! It seems that Shevat > is supposed to have special significance, but I have forgotten what it is, > other than remembering that Tu b'Shevat (The Feast of Trees) is this > month?This is a lovely little festival where various fruits of the trees are > tasted and shared and blessings of thanksgiving are cited. > > > > Has anyone received news of the sighting of the New Moon in Israel? > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/53bab9f3/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 23:52:04 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:52:04 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Science vs God (really a good one) I thoughtyouwould like this. In-Reply-To: <019501c8527a$39934660$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <019501c8527a$39934660$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801082152u180af8c4r79bb9e11abc16d47@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, John. I forwarded to my son who is attending the University of Texas. He was just telling me the other day about an atheist girl at school who was always trying to disprove his and everyone else's faith. Kim On Jan 8, 2008 10:43 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Yes, it is! Wouldn't it have been a riot to have been in that classroom > if only for that day?! Thanks for sharing, John. > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *patricia robbins > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:38 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] Fw: Science vs God (really a good one) I > thoughtyouwould like this. > > > > This is great, John! > > > To: uilist at unitedisrael.org; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net > > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:04:11 +0000 > > CC: > > Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Science vs God (really a good one) I thought > youwould like this. > > > > The following is a very good philosophical discussion. It was written > with a Christian overture but that is not important to the underlying point > so please disregard that part. I think the argument it self is something > important for us all to understand concerning G-d. > > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "AMEDEE, SUSAN W" > > > > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:16:17 > > To: > > Subject: Science vs God (really a good one) I thought youwould like > this. > > > > > > A Keeper! J > > > > > > > > > > > > "Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist > > professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his > > > new students to stand. > > "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?" > > > > > > "Yes sir," the student says. > > > > "So you believe in God?" > > > > "Absolutely." > > > > "Is God good?" > > > > "Sure! God's good." > > > > "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" > > > > "Yes." > > > > "Are you good or evil?" > > > > "The Bible says I'm evil." > > > > The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible !" He considers for a > > moment. > > "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you > > can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?" > > > > "Yes sir, I wo uld." > > > > > > "So you're good...!" > > > > "I wouldn't say that." > > > > "But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. > > > Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't." > > > > > > The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, > > does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he > > prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer > > > that one?" > > > > The student remains silent. > > > > "No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water > > from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. > > > > > > "Let's start again, young fella Is God good?" > > > > "Er...yes," the student says. > > "Is Satan good?" > > > > The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No." > > > > "Then where does Satan come from?" > > > > The student: "From...God..." > > > > "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in > > > this world?" > > > > "Yes, s ir." > > > > "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?" > > > > > > "Yes." > > > > "So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created > > everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to > > the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil." > > > > Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: "Is > > there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, > > > do they exist in this world?" > > > > The student: "Yes." > > > > "So who created them?" > > > > The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his > > question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the > > lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is > > mesmerized. > > > > "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus > > Christ, son?" > > > > The student's voice is confident: "Yes, professor, I do." > > > > The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to > > identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?" > > > > "No sir. I've never seen Him" > > > > "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" > > > > "No, sir, I have not." > > > > "Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your > > > Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God > > for that matter?" > > > > "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." > > > > "Yet you still believe in him?" > > > > "Yes." > > > > "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, > > science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?" > > > > "Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith." > > > > "Yes, faith," the professor repeats. < FONT face=Arial > > color=#c00000>"And that is the problem science has with God. There is no > > > evidence, only faith." > > > > The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his > > > ow n. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?" > > > > "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." > > > > "And is there such a thing as cold?" > > > > "Yes, son, there's cold too." > > > > "No sir, there isn't." > > > > The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room > > suddenly becomes very quiet. > > > > > > The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more > > heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat > > or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to > > 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further > > after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able > > to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is > > susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what > > makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) > > is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word w e use > > to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can > > measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the > > opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." > > > > Silence acr oss the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, > > sounding like a hammer. > > > > "What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?" > > > > "Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it > > isn't darkness?" > > > > "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence > > of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, > > flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and > > > it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the > > word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make > > darkness darker, wouldn't you?" > > > > The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him and says, > > "This is going to be a good semester... So what point are you making, > > young man?" > > > > "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to > > start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed." > > > > The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can > > you explain how?" > > > > "You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You > > argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad > > God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, somethin g > > we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses > > electricity and magnetism, but has never been seen, much less fully > > understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be > > ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. > > Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it." > > > > "Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved > > from a monkey?" > > > > "I f you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, > > yes, of course I do" > > > > "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" > > > > The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes > > where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed. > > > > "Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and > > cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you > > not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a > > preacher?" > > > > The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion > > has subsided. > > > > "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let > > > me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the > > room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's > > brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. "Is there anyone here who > > has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the profess or's brain, > > touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done > > so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, > > demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due > > > respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust > > your lectures, sir?" > > > > Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his > > face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man > > answers "I guess you'll have to take them on faith." > > > > "Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with > > life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?" > > > > > Now uncert ain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it > > everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is > > in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These > > manifestations are nothing else but evil." > > > > To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it > > does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is > > just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the > > > absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what > > happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's > > like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that > > comes when there is no light." > > > > The professor sat down. > > > > Pass this on if you love Jesus. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/1f47b165/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 23:58:19 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:58:19 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801082158t14baad9frb90d65355e660a4a@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch, The first thought that I had when I read the post, was that this may be an opportunity for you to reach out to your brother. I know what you have said about him, but it might be that this has opened a door for you. Hope I'm not out of line in saying this, but it was my first thought. Kim On Jan 8, 2008 9:07 PM, wrote: > Hi Marvin - > > We (Jews) don't bury on Shabbat or a Yom Tov (holiday). If at all > possible, they will rush to bury the body on the afternoon before, to avoid > having to keep the body until afterwards. In Israel, they actually try to > bury on the very same DAY the person died, if at all possible. > > Sighhh...I am very rusty on those Halachot (laws), but if you'd like, I > can look stuff up for you. > > Take care and thanks for writing - > Hanoch > > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080108/6e8b174b/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 00:05:18 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:05:18 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Prayer In-Reply-To: <01c201c85281$7276b460$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <01c201c85281$7276b460$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801082205o3bd9a6a3oddd7071dd40ab06b@mail.gmail.com> No wonder Malachi 3 was in my head today. I had forgotten about this prayer, but I suppose my subconscious did not. BTW the new moon is expected tomorrow, Jan. 9th. Kim On Jan 8, 2008 11:35 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Dear friends, > > > > I intended on attaching a copy of this beautiful prayer in my last email. > It seems very appropriate in view of all that is going on in these days. > The very language touches so closely on so much of what has been on the > dialogue lately. > > > > Normally, some of us have said it at sundown the eve of Rosh Chodesh by > the Observed Calendar. I realize it is past sundown, but thought that > some of you who are still up might want to pray it. > > Or perhaps when we get the word of the sighting of the new moon in Israel, > anyone who chooses could say it then. Blessings to all of you! > Betty/Elisheva > > > > *A Monthly UIWU Biblical Prayer for Redemption * > > This Biblical Prayer was commissioned and inaugurated by David Horowitz in > 1991. It is recited by many, both Jews and non-Jews, at sunset, as New > Moon/Month begins, as based on the standard Jewish calendar. It is an > expression of our solidarity and shared faith, in accordance with Malachi > 3:16-18. > > God of gods, Lord of lords, the Great, the Mighty, the Awesome, whose Name > alone is YHVH, the Eternal God of Hosts, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, > Our Father, we fervently call upon You. > > Ah Lord God, we are but dust and ashes! We are ashamed and embarrassed to > lift our faces to You, for our iniquities have risen above our heads, and > our guilt has grown even to the heavens. It is not on account of our own > righteousness that we offer these supplications before You, but on account > of Your great compassion. What are we? What is our life? What is our > goodness? What is our righteousness? What is our strength? In Your presence, > Oh God, we are as nothing. > Yet You have declared Yourself merciful and gracious, slow to anger, > abounding in lovingkindness and faithfulness. You made the heavens and the > earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm. Nothing is too > difficult for You. You are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, keeping > covenant forever, showing mercy to thousands who fear Your Name and keep > Your Commandments. Now for a brief moment you have shown grace to us in > leaving an escaped remnant who sigh and cry over all the sins of Israel and > the nations. > You have declared, YHVH, our God, RETURN TO ME, AND I WILL RETURN TO YOU. > We do RETURN O God! We fervently call upon You, we cry out to You, to SEND > THE REDEEMER, to regather the lost sheep of all Israel, to crush the evil > ways of the wicked. We long for that day when the Torah will go forth from > Zion to all the nations, when darkness will flee away, when the veil will be > removed from all Israel and the nations, when the saints of the Most High > will receive the Kingdom, when You will destroy the destroyers of the earth, > when wars will be forever abolished, when justice and righteousness will > fill the earth as the waters cover the sea, when YHVH will be King over all > the earth, and His Name One. > Oh YHVH our God, God of Abraham Your friend, we call upon You together on > this day, at this hour. Oh YHVH hear! Oh YHVH forgive! Oh YHVH hearken and > act! Oh YHVH delay not! For Your sake and for Zion, and for Your people, and > for all humankind. In the appointed TIME you will hasten it, for it will > certainly come, it will not delay. We bow the knee, we sigh and cry, we turn > to You, YHVH, our Rock and our Redeemer. Hear our prayer! > Reading and Meditation: > > Zechariah 1:2-4 > > Malachi 3:16-24 (Hebrew) > > Daniel 9:1-19; chapters 2 & 7 > > Ezra 9:5-15 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/950861ae/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 00:34:03 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:34:03 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Post Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801082234r5a362289ydccae56a78df97e6@mail.gmail.com> Several good articles in the current addition of the Jerusalem Post. http://www.jpost.com/ American support for Israel up to over 60% as opposed to 23% in 2003. As well as news of President Bush's trip to Israel. Also an article on Jonathan Pollard. He has been on my mind the last week or so. I intended to make everyone on the list aware of him closer to the time when the President would be making pardons, but I believe the time is now to join in prayer for his release. He has been wrongfully imprisoned in the U.S. for 23 years. For more information visit his official site http://www.jonathanpollard.org/ Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/18ce71f4/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Wed Jan 9 00:39:44 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:39:44 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow References: <1c8dbb6e0801082158t14baad9frb90d65355e660a4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01c001c8528a$6c6964b0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Kim, I thought the very same thing.................to just "love" him.....(.and I hope I am not yelling.) love ya Hanoch. Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: kim alvarado To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hanoch, The first thought that I had when I read the post, was that this may be an opportunity for you to reach out to your brother. I know what you have said about him, but it might be that this has opened a door for you. Hope I'm not out of line in saying this, but it was my first thought. Kim On Jan 8, 2008 9:07 PM, wrote: Hi Marvin - We (Jews) don't bury on Shabbat or a Yom Tov (holiday). If at all possible, they will rush to bury the body on the afternoon before, to avoid having to keep the body until afterwards. In Israel, they actually try to bury on the very same DAY the person died, if at all possible. Sighhh...I am very rusty on those Halachot (laws), but if you'd like, I can look stuff up for you. Take care and thanks for writing - Hanoch ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/7dabbece/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Wed Jan 9 00:53:24 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:53:24 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow References: <8CA204A2187A2BF-EF4-174A@MBLK-M25.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <021301c8528c$54b29d30$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Dearest Hanoch, Am so saddened to hear of John's death. Perhaps HaShem is opening a door for you after all these years of seperation from your brother......(spiritually). HaShem, May his eyes be opened to not only see but to know the truth....that he might be set free to follow You...and come into fellowship with his brother. May it be so! Blessings, Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Shalom to all, Every once in a while, something occurs that makes me realize that 'tomorrow isn't guaranteed; that if there was someone I wanted to apologize to, I should do it, and not wait.... On New Years Day I wrote about John, the son of the woman my brother lives with, being hit by a truck while crossing a Manhattan Street (New Years Eve) by a drunk driver. I never met him, and actually, barely know his mother....but I felt so bad when I heard about this accident. He was in a coma, and was on a respirator. Well, my brother just called to tell me that John, age 21, died this morning, and they were donating his organs as we were speaking. Since they're Greek Orthodox, the wake is Friday night, with the burial on Shabbat, so I can't even go....I just feel so bad for them. Don't wait until tomorrow, we never have any guarantees.... Sorry to share sad news... Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/a8017e2a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 9 07:26:06 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:26:06 EST Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Message-ID: Hey Kim, Firstly, you can never be out of line - we're friends, so don't be shy about saying things. :-) As a matter of fact, as I was calling him daily, I mentioned to him that I was going to Israel in March for 3 weeks, to visit Kyra. And I asked, if there's anything I could bring him back (don't know why I said it, I hadn't brought him things from Israel for probably 30 years! And he asked me (Loy, are you listening - you were right...) to buy him a talit (prayer shawl), and he said he'd pay for it (although like Wimpy from Popeye, he borrows money he never repays..). Not like one he had for his Bar Mitzvah in (the little silky scarf type), but one like mine - the traditional one you drape over your shoulders - white with black stripes. The only thing I don't get is WHY he wants it...he NEVER goes to shul, EVER; not even when mom died. But who knows....? But I did reach out, just as you suggested, for the very same reason I wrote the email. There isn't always a tomorrow to 'make up.'.... Thanks Kim! Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/86a40f5a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 9 07:28:04 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:28:04 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem Post Message-ID: Thanks Kim - It's really important for us ALL to stay on top of things - keep passing it around! Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/4cff1461/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 9 07:29:25 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:29:25 EST Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Message-ID: Hey Leorah - I was thinking of YOU!!! Please read my posting to Kim, when I address exactly that point. Great hearing from you! Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/e3db123a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 9 07:34:18 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:34:18 EST Subject: [Dialogue] What it's all about... Message-ID: Shalom Chvarim Yikarim, Here's what it's all about.... Hanoch And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God to you and to your seed after you. Genesis 17:7 **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/5e4e8e71/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 9 07:50:47 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:50:47 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A Jedi truth for the Torah Faith Message-ID: Shalom to all: I thought this Jedi quote (I want to be a Jedi when I grow up..) was really appropriate for our group....At times I think Star Wars SO relates to us..... "Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view." OB1-Wan Kenobi Have a great day! Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/70a472e8/attachment.html From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 07:53:23 2008 From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 05:53:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] A Jedi truth for the Torah Faith Message-ID: <820601.99740.qm@web44916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hanoch, May the force be with us! Rick ----- Original Message ---- From: "YoungBarzel at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2008 7:50:47 AM Subject: [Dialogue] A Jedi truth for the Torah Faith Shalom to all: I thought this Jedi quote (I want to be a Jedi when I grow up..) was really appropriate for our group....At times I think Star Wars SO relates to us..... "Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view." OB1-Wan Kenobi Have a great day! Hanoch Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/bb96b864/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 9 07:58:45 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:58:45 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A Jedi truth for the Torah Faith Message-ID: Hey Rick! Yes, indeed, may the Force be with us. But I've got to say, I've been dabbling a bit on the Dark Side of the Force, and there really IS something to be said for rage, anger, etc. But we can save that one for another day - LOL Take care Rick - Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/31e3839e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 9 08:03:46 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:03:46 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A question for Ross - Message-ID: Hey Ross - Is there a prize you can win if you post the MOST emails on the Dialogue list? You know, something like a years worth of free lessons to teach me how to speak Cajun - the kind of thing I'd find useful here in NYC, and even MORE SO in Israel! :-) Can't be serious ALL the time..... The curious poster from the Big Apple, Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/d27d6c4b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 6 22:27:19 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:27:19 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Friends with a Mutual Purpose In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <017101c850e5$97da2d10$643c66c9@bettygivin> I love this, James.can't get more basic that this.it shows David's clarity of purpose and the simple timeless message that he proclaimed straight from the Hebrew scriptures. Pretty amazing.in 1944, some of you were not even born yet.notice, I said, some of you..Thanks! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 1:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Friends with a Mutual Purpose Ross, Here is a scan of the document. Yes, it was definitely done on a typewriter back in 1944. I find this totally amazing in terms of its utter simplicity, particularly considering how Horowitz had come from the Guibbory experience but brought none of it over into the founding of UIWU...These principles stand ever so true today! Amazing! James On Jan 4, 2008, at 1:15 AM, rndavar at aol.com wrote: I made a mistake in this note where I said that David Horowitz typed this on his "computer". I meant to say that he typed it on his typewriter. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/ed4ba44c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 79178 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080106/ed4ba44c/attachment.jpe From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 17:46:27 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:46:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you can not see this email properly, please click here Subscribe To This Report Home News News Briefs Opinion Judaism Features Blogs Radio | Live TV Jukebox Israel Pics Services RSS Advertise Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel VisitU.S. President George W. Bush is refusing to meet with Likud Opposition Leader Binyamin Netanyahu, or anyone else opposed to the Annapolis process. more Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Feature: Is the 'Aliyah Revolution' For Every Kind of Jew? Sderot Families Sue Egypt for Aiding Terrorists Esther Pollard, Azzam Azzam, Furious at Ministers Over Barghouti Scroll to Mr. Bush Reminds Him of His Historic Role 7 Teenaged Girls Still in Prison - 12 Days Later American Al-Qaeda: ?Mujahedeen are Waiting? for Bush Amit Schools: Sderot Alarms Will Trip Off Country-Wide 'Alarms' Video: Demolition Orders at Jewish Town in Samaria Postponed TV Programs Explosives and rocket labs located and destroyed Click to view Mk Rabbi Benny Elon?s ?Holywood?-Style Trailer Click to view Radio Programs Audio: King Bush Comes to Israel Click to Listen Audio: RebbeSoul and haMAKOR Rock Out Live in the Studio! Click to Listen 1. Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit by Hana Levi Julian U.S. President George W. Bush has declined to meet with former Prime Minister and current Likud Opposition Leader MK Binyamin Netanyahu during his upcoming visit to Israel, slated to begin on Wednesday, according to the Jerusalem Post. Sources in Prime Minister Ehud Olmert?s Kadima party quoted in the report offered this explanation: ?At the White House, they think [Mr. Netanyahu] is a liar because of his behavior when he was prime minister.? Outraged Likud officials accused Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of sabotaging what would normally be a routine meeting between a visiting U.S. President and an Israeli Opposition Leader, a long-established diplomatic custom. ?Given the extent to which the prime minister is willing to endanger the country to survive politically, it is not surprising that the Prime Minister?s Office is going out of its way to prevent Bibi (Netanyahu) from meeting with Bush,? said senior Likud sources. A spokesman for Olmert stated that he was unaware of any efforts to block a meeting between Bush and Netanyahu. Bush has no plans to meet with any politician or other officials opposed to the Annapolis process.Comment on This Story 2. Feature: Is the 'Aliyah Revolution' For Every Kind of Jew? by Ezra HaLevi Israel National Radio?s Aliyah Revolution show hosted renowned Canadian media personality Ralph Benmergui. Host Go?el Jasper answered Benmergui?s concerns as to whether Israel wants him. Benmergui, an avid listener to the Aliyah Revolution Show, hosts a jazz radio program in Toronto and visited Arutz-7 studios in Beit El with a team from Canada?s Vision TV. The Aliyah Revolution has broadcast for years on Arutz-7 radio and deals with logistical, spiritual, theoretical, theological and practical aspects of immigrating to Israel. Ralph Benmergui (left) and Go'el Jasper (right) Benmergui and Jasper talk as the Vision TV film crew tapes. Benmergui confided that he has for a long time struggled with a desire to move to the Jewish state. Born in Tangiers, Benmergui has hosted an array of Canada?s top radio and TV shows and though his body is in the West, his heart is in the East. ?There are times when I thought, ?Making Aliyah (immigrating to Israel) would be alright.? But there are other times when I thought ? ?You know, I don?t think they want me.?? Host Go?el Jasper responded: ?What are you talking about? Of course we want you.? Jasper joked: ?There are times when I feel like they don?t want me.? Click here to listen to the entire interview The Canadian Jewish media personality continued to elaborate, saying he feels like it is only religious Jews who are moving to Israel today. ?I?ve noticed lately that the kind of Aliyah happening from North America is religious,? Benmergui lamented. ?If you are religious you come here.? Jasper: Well I say, if you come here you are religious Benmergui: What does that mean? Jasper: It means that this is the homeland of the Jewish people and if you come here you are de facto ?religious? ? you are identifying with the Jewish people. Benmergui: What if you are secular? I am not secular, I?m religious, but I?m not Orthodox in any way. I?m a liberal Jew from Canada. So for me, I always think, ?I don?t think they are looking for me right now. I think they are looking for a different kind of person.? I mean, who is a Jew, really, once we get into going to a place like Israel ? all that stuff. So it makes it a little ? I mean I listen to your show, because there is always a part of me that thinks ?Maybe I should do it. Maybe really I should do it.? Jasper: Well it?s interesting. We have asked that question in the past. Do we really want every Jew? And I?m telling you: Yeah, we do. We do. And I?ll give you the proof. If someone is a secular Jew living in Portland, Oregon. Or you?re from Canada, so, Portland, Maine ? a little closer to where you are. And they do everything they can to hide the fact that they are Jewish. They don?t want to have anything to do with it. But their last name is Goldberg. So no matter what they do, they feel everyone is always going to look at them as ?the Jew.? But [that kind of Jew] comes to Tel Aviv and nobody is ever gonna think of them as ?the Jew? ? everyone?s Jewish. You can lead a happy, secular, if you like, life and for the rest of your life never be thought of as ?the Jew? again. Benmergui: OK, do you want Jews to come here and make Aliyah who say ?I don?t believe in settlements. Do you want Jews who say ?I don?t think Orthodox should control education.? Jasper: I want all Jews to live here. Listen, we have plenty of those as is. I understand where the question is coming from, but what I try to promote on this show is that no matter what kind of Jew you are ? this a place where you can live. This is my night job. In my day job I interact with companies all over the country ? usually with secular Jews. Not only are they great people, but they are happy with their lives here. I don?t think it is a matter of religiosity or whether you are on the right or left. If you are a Jew, this is the place to live. Benmergui: What about the people who say it?s tough to make a living? I hear that a lot from people. Jasper: They are right ? it is tough to make a living. If your focus is on material things, it is tough to make a living. Not as tough as it used to be, though. The advances in terms of the business world here in general and specifically in the world of technology and health care have changed the rules in terms of what income can be like here. However, in general you are not going to make the same salary. I have a friend who is a doctor. He is making ten percent of what he was making in the states. Benmergui: Is he happy? Jasper: He is very happy. [?] Benmergui: You know?when I think of who comes now and I think of getting on that plane ? I don?t know if I would. I don?t know if I?d come for religious reasons. I know I certainly wouldn?t come here to live on a settlement ? so I don?t know whether I am supposed to be one of those people ? G-d love you for coming ? but I don?t know if I can be one of them. Jasper: What we normally talk about on this show is about how you can live the Jewish existence that you want ? no matter what your Jewish intensity is ? in this land. Benmergui: So tell me how I, as a liberal, progressive Jew, can live the life I want here? What is my Aliyah? What is my function? Jasper: [feigning psychic powers ?ed.] I see you living in the town of -- No. Listen, we have known each other for 45 minutes. I have no idea where you would live ? Benmergui: Well roughly, would it be Raanana, would it be? Jasper: I think Israel is in desperate need of a radio show focused on Jazz. We don?t have that today. Benmergui: There is that whole issue of the Conservative and Reform movements in Israel. It seems to be growing. That is a good reason to come. Jasper: Is it growing? Benmergui: Yeah, they are growing. Jasper: The more Jews come to live here by choice, the more you will have Jews getting together to do things the way they did in their country of origin. You see the Anglos ? and the North Americans more specifically ? making serious progress in terms of the business world, in terms of the political echelon, in terms of education and all aspects of life. Benmergui: What do you say to people in mixed marriages who in their heart want to make Aliyah. Where do they fit? Jasper: I don?t know. Where do they fit? I don?t know. Listen, you?d have to ask the Chief Rabbinate that question. I know that every Jew is welcome to live here. I am not in a mixed marriage so I am not familiar. Benmergui: There are a lot of people in North America who have married out of the faith and are trying to find some way to console themselves and still want to be Jewish. I just don?t know, are they Jewish enough to live here because now they have a mixed marriage? [A caller: Rob from New Castle, Pennsylvania] Rob: Shalom, Shalom and the same to your guest. I was calling because I heard your guest. My wife is a Presbyterian and we decided we wanted to make Aliyah. I discovered Israel National Radio cruisin? through the Internet one day. It was the first time I was even exposed to the word Aliyah. I talked to my rabbi about it last night because we are having our Orthodox wedding Monday. My wife surprised me by converting. She kept it secret and told me a week before that she is becoming Jewish. The worst thing about it is that now she reads Hebrew better than I do. Benmergui: So now you are going to come to Israel? Rob: Oh yes, definitely. In fact, we are sort of bummed out that we have to first make a pilot trip and all that stuff. I had never been to Boston before I lived there, to Philly or to New York City before I lived those places. I don?t understand why I have to visit Israel before I live there. Benmergui: Can I ask you something? When you got married to your wife, who you obviously loved enough to get married to ? and she was Presbyterian - did you think you had to leave your Jewishness behind? Rob: No, my Jewishness was mine and it didn?t matter if she was a supporter of my faith or not, because it was what I believed. I was just fortunate that I had a wife who found it on her own ? she started reading the Old Testament I have here. She was very intrigued by it and made the decision on her own. It was never ? ?Hey honey, I want you to convert.? Benmergui: Would you have made Aliyah if your wife hadn?t converted? Rob: Yeah. We made the decision even before she ever thought about converting. Jasper: The pilot trip is only a requirement via Nefesh B?Nefesh because they want the Aliyah to stick. They want to make sure that people know what they are getting into and the kind of commitment they are making. But I want you to know that if I hadn?t done my pilot trip - first of all, I don?t know if I would have the job I have now ? and it also gave me the ability to learn about the country and how it works here. I know it is a drag to have to drop a couple thousand dollars on just a pilot trip when you are worrying how you are going to make it financially here. But long-term I think it?s the right move?Thanks for calling in Rob. We wish you all the luck in the world with your Aliyah. Rob: Ah, there?s no luck to it. We just make it work ? that?s all. Hashem blesses us and we work to do good things. Benmergui: He?s interesting. That?s fantastic. Jasper: We get a lot of interesting people. One reason why, is that Aliyah is an out-of-the-box thing. It is not something that people in the mainstream think about doing all the time. You gotta think outside of the box and once you are out of that box, you get people who think that way in a lot of ways. Click here to listen to the entire interview Listen to the Aliyah Revolution Show each Thursday at 6 PM Israel time and 11 AM New York time - and anytime on demand - at IsraelNationalRadio.comComment on This Story 3. Sderot Families Sue Egypt for Aiding Terrorists by Hana Levi Julian Ten families from Sderot are planning to sue Egypt in the Be?er Sheva District Court on Monday for its role in attacks by Gaza terrorists on their city. All 10 families have loved ones who were murdered or seriously wounded in Kassam rocket attacks launched by terrorists from Gaza. The petitioners argue that Egypt has deliberately assisted the terrorists in smuggling weapons into Gaza and that those weapons have been used in the production and launching of rockets that exploded in Sderot. The lawsuit also accuses Egypt of deliberately allowing Gaza terrorists to cross the border in order to participate in advanced terror training camps held in Iran, Syria and elsewhere. Egypt further facilitated the terrorists? activities by allowing them to cross the border back into Gaza with their deadly newfound knowledge, often with huge amounts of cash as well. According to a year-end report by the General Security Service (Shin Bet), Gaza has become the leading source of terrorism in recent years. Not only does the area serve as a launch site for attacks on the western Negev, but it has also become the leading exporter of terrorist technology and training to Palestinian Authority terrorists in Judea and Samaria. More than 1,200 rockets were launched at Israeli targets from Gaza in 2007, according to the report. Of those, 800 exploded within the pre-1967 borders of Israel. The families, represented by Attorney Nitzana Darshan-Leitner, head of the Israel Law Center (Shurat HaDin), are demanding NIS 260 million in damages.Comment on This Story 4. Esther Pollard, Azzam Azzam, Furious at Ministers Over Barghouti by Gil Ronen Esther Pollard, wife of Jonathan Pollard, had scathing criticism Sunday for ministers who are willing to fight for releasing Fatah terrorist Marwan Barghouti, but not for the release of her husband. She was reacting to statements by Ministers Binyamin Ben-Eliezer and Gideon Ezra, as well as Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai, who expressed support for releasing Barghouti today. These ministers, said Mrs. Pollard, never fought for the release of her husband, who has spent 23 years in the American jail. "For 23 years, I never heard a single minister in all of Israel's governments opening his mouth and saying Jonathan should be freed. It is infuriating that when it comes to a terrorist with Jewish blood on his hands, they are willing to fight," she said. "I expected that in honor of the President's visit and the 60th anniversary of the State of Israel, the picture would be different, but reality shows me time and time again that Jonathan's release is not on the priority list at all," Esther Pollard said. "If Barghouti's release is discussed as part of an agreement with the Palestinians," Ben-Eliezer said on Army Radio, "my hand will be the first one raised in favor." "The reason I fight day and night for Barghouti's release is so that we can meet someone who can sit down and discuss a final status accord with us," the former Defense Minister said.Azzam Azzam: BetrayalAzzam Azzam, an Israeli Arab who was jailed in Egypt on charges of espionage for Israel, agreed Sunday with Mrs. Pollard. Ynet reported Azzam said he was "shocked to hear how ministers go out of their way in their struggle for the murderer Barghouti." He added: "I find it hard to imagine what a feeling of betrayal I would have fe82% of the Israeli public believes that Ehud Olmert and Shimon Peres should raise Jonathan Pollard in their meetings with Bushlt if, after 23 years of being in jail, Mubarak would arrive in Israel and instead of discussing my release, the ministers occupied themselves with releasing Barghouti." The Committee to Bring Home Jonathan Pollard has kicked off a new ad campaign aimed at raising awareness to the fate of Jonathan Pollard, "the fourth Israeli captive" (besides Gilad Shalit, Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev, who are being held by Hamas and Hizbullah). The campaign's website says: "All the People of Israel await President Bush's response to our appeal for the release of his captive, Jonathan Pollard." Billboards, bus ads and balcony signs show Bush's picture above Pollard's name, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh above Shalit's name and Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah above the names of Goldwasser and Regev. Pollard bus ad. According to a poll conducted for Committee to Bring Home Jonathan Pollard by the Mutagim Institute, 82 percent of the Israeli public believes that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and President Shimon Peres should raise the subject of Jonathan Pollard in their meetings with Bush. Approximately 63.5 percent of the public think Israel should make any discussion of further Israeli "gestures" conditional on the release of Pollard. Finally, 57 percent said Pollard's continued incarceration, despite the fact that he has served a much longer sentence than the ones served by other people convicted of the same offense, harms the U.S.'s image as a true friend of Israel. Comment on This Story 5. Scroll to Mr. Bush Reminds Him of His Historic Role by Hillel Fendel A historic document is planned to be submitted to visiting US President George Bush upon his arrival this week, calling upon him to choose to be remembered like Cyrus, and not like Nebuchadnezzar. The document, grandly transcribed on parchment and furled into a scroll, is addressed to the the "Leader of the West." It reminds President Bush to "declare to the world" that he will honor G-d's word and act "towards settling the Jewish People throughout their entire Land." The document was signed by three figures, including the world-renowned Torah scholar, philosopher, social critic and author Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz, once termed by Time magazine as a "once-in-a-millennium scholar." Rabbi Chaim Richman, representing the Temple Mount movements, and Dr. Gadi Eshel of the New Jewish Congress are also signed upon the proclamation. Rabbi Steinsaltz signing the proclamation The scroll is likely to be presented to Mr. Bush during his visit this week to Israel by a prominent political and social figure. Bush Can Choose His Historic RecordThe impressive document includes a detailed reminder to Bush that he has the chance to help G-d's eternal word be fulfilled, and thus pave the way for world peace, or to take the opposite path. It begins by saying that Mr. Bush has the chance "to make a declaration, as did Cyrus, King of Persia... who, in the year 538 BCE, returned the exiled nations to their lands, recognized the full right of the Jewish people to reestablish their Holy Temple, the ?house of prayer for all nations? (Isaiah 56:7), and called upon them to return to their land." "And thus," the manifesto continues, "if you truly desire peace and benevolence, and you would be counted in the company of the truly righteous, we call upon you to declare to all the world: The Land of Israel was bequeathed to the nation of Israel by the Creator of the world. Neither could I, as a son of my faith, nor the Muslims according to their faith, ever take away even the slightest grain from the Eternal?s gift, which He gave to His people Israel, the eternal people." The Wrong of a Palestinian StateBush is thus also bidden to declare, "I cannot simultaneously support the establishment of a foreign state for an alien nation in the Land of Israel, and I will not lend my hand to this wrong." The proclamation also takes a foreboding tone: "Or ? Heaven forbid ? you can choose the second option ? to willfully aid in the destruction, under the guise of peace! You certainly know what the G-d of Israel did to Egypt and Assyria and to all Israel?s enemies from time immemorial: Do you imagine that you will be able to save yourself if you have come to implement a plan that intends to steal the land of ?the people that survived the sword? (Jeremiah 31:1), and to cut off those who survived the Holocaust, to rob the land that was given to them by the Creator?" "All of the peace treaties and initiatives which have been based upon the decisions of the government of Israel, indeed the entire Oslo process, and the ?Disengagement,? and the establishment of a terrorist state within the Land of Israel known as ?Palestine? ? regrettably, all of these agreements are the result of a lack of sufficient faith in the Divine promises that the Lord made to the patriarchs of our nation, and all that is written in the Torah of Israel. "Understand this well: the nations of the world cannot excuse their actions and their decisions on account of the weakness of Israel and her government. G-d ordained that the role of the nations of the world is to strengthen the nation of Israel. This will benefit all humanity and bring about world peace, as the prophets have foretold. "Do you imagine you can escape from the struggles in Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon, by offering up sacrifices of the Jews who are slaughtered daily by their enemies who speak of peace but live by the sword? Bring Pollard With You!The document also includes a call for Bush to allow Jonathan Pollard to return home to Israel - either on the same plane to Israel as the President, or by "authoriz[ing] his immediate release while you are yet in Jerusalem, before you return to the United States. This will be a positive step that will build confidence." First of five pages of Biblical verses, provided for Mr. Bush for his meditation The document also provides a list of Biblical verses "for meditation" that "testify to the eternal promise and the inexorable link between the land of Israel and the Jewish people." The entire document is to be posted for viewing and reading on the TempleInstitute.org site.Rabbi Dov Stein, secretary of the Sanhedrin, which is headed by Rabbi Steinsaltz, met on Monday morning with a public figure and presented him with the scroll, asking that he please submit it by hand to Mr. Bush during their upcoming meeting.Comment on This Story 6. 7 Teenaged Girls Still in Prison - 12 Days Later by Hillel Fendel Seven teenaged girls arrested nearly two weeks ago for helping build a new civilian outpost in Samaria are still in prison - banned from speaking to their parents or on the phone. An eighth girl has been in jail for a month, and is being held alone. Their crime: Refusing to identify themselves or otherwise cooperate with Israel's judicial system that they say intends to unlawfully keep Jews out of the Land of Israel. A large group of their friends protested loudly outside the Jerusalem Magistrates Court on Friday morning, and blocked the car of Court President Amnon Cohen. An eyewitness said Cohen became frazzled by the blockage and the whistling, and lost control of his car, crashing into an electricity pole. Damage was caused, but no one was hurt. The "Hill of Light" The girls were arrested at the site known as Givat Ha'Or (Hill of Light), featuring a group of abandoned Jordanian or British structures unused since before the Six Day War in 1967. Youths from nearby Beit El and other communities attempted to create a Jewish presence there, while other groups were starting similar initiatives at the same time in four other sites throughout Judea and Samaria. Though the site had been declared a closed military zone before, police and army forces had not taken a tough stand against the youthful "settlers." Several times, the forces evicted them, but seemed to turn a blind eye to their returns, which generally happened within a few hours. Nearly two weeks ago, however - Wednesday, Dec. 25 - things developed differently. Apparently armed with special orders to put an end once and for all to yet another Jewish presence near the site of Jacob's Biblical dream, the forces arrived at Givat Ha'Or with special gusto, and violently banished the youths from the site. In the process, they brutally arrested seven girls. The girls have refused, since then, to identify themselves or accept legal counsel - and the authorities, both in the prison service and the courts, have retaliated with relish.Food Deprivation and Other Fronts"An ideological war is being waged against 15-year-olds," said Ettie Medad, a mother of ten who herself spent 25 days in prison under similar circumstances in 2005, told Arutz-7. "For instance, the three times that they brought them for extension of their custody, the girls didn't receive food or the right to go to the bathroom the whole morning until the afternoon. In addition, the girls would like to study while they're there - but the Prison Service is not allowing any educational materials to be brought to them. The lawyer from the Honenu organization wrote a very sharp letter to the Prison Service, protesting this. Even Arab terrorists in jail are allowed to study; the Education Ministry must get involved and make sure they are able to study."Ettie, who has attended two hearings at which the girls' custody was extended, says it is not clear whether the judges and prison personnel are working in tandem, "but the bottom line is that the girls are being mistreated and punished on both ends - for doing nothing other than not cooperating with the system. There have been different judges, and not one of them has taken the simple step of simply ordering them released. It is an unlawful system, and its goals are to throw more Jews out of the Land of Israel - and we refuse to give them the strength to do so."Another girl, Tirtzah, who has been arrested several times under similar circumstances, has been in prison since Chanukah. Not only is she not permitted phone calls or parental visits, she is being kept separately from the others. "A lawyer from Honenu visits them every day," Ettie said, "just to give them some contact with the outside world. This is especially important for Tirtzah... But they are all strong; one day, I asked the lawyer who visited to speak separately with each girl and ask if they felt strong enough to continue. They all said yes; their strength is amazing. And the parents, too, are all supportive of their daughters - and some of them are actively in favor of their stance.""They are not willing to be judged by this evil system," Ettie summed up. "They are willing to pay a relatively small price now, in order not to pay a larger price - of all of us being thrown out of our homes - later. This is a case of the few against the many; at present, we see that the authorities are feeling the pressure, and want to make sure that the phenomenon does not spread. At Friday's protest [where the judge crashed], the police - who generally make arrests in situations of this nature - were heard saying to each other not to make any arrests." Letter to ComptrollerCivil rights and legal expert Attorney Iriving Gendelman has written to State Comptroller Micha Lindenstrauss in protest of a similar case of girls' incarceration. "The imprisonment of these juvenile girls," Gendelman wrote, "whose alleged acts relate to their concern for the welfare of their country is clearly unprecedented in a democratic society and would be violative of at least [the United Nations'] Human Rights Documents. This imprisonment is no less a governmental intimidation because these girls represent a political thought opposed to governmental policies. Their imprisonment is degrading, and it is an absence of dignity." Asked how people can show their support, Ettie Medad said that they can try to find out when custody-extension hearings are being held - one was held for Tirtzah on Sunday, and another for the others Monday morning at the Russian Compound in Jerusalem - and show up to give support.Comment on This Story 7. American Al-Qaeda: ?Mujahedeen are Waiting? for Bush by Hana Levi Julian U.S. President George W. Bush is facing death threats by terrorists when he arrives in Israel Wednesday for a three-day visit to the region. A 29-year-old California convert to Islam known as ?Azzam the American? called for Muslims to kill the U.S. president during his upcoming visit to the Middle East in a video posted on the internet Sunday. The Western representative of the international Al-Qaeda terrorist organization, Adam Yahiye Gadahn declared in a videotape entitled ?An Invitation to Reflection and Repentance? that the Mujahedeen (Islamist fighters in a jihad, or holy war) are waiting for Bush. ?Enemies of this believing nation have successfully implemented their anti-Islam, anti-Muslim designs,? he said in the 50-minute tape, the first message from the Al-Qaeda group this year. On December 30, Al-Qaeda leader and arch-terrorist Osama bin Laden promised in a video posted on the internet that 2008 would be the year the terrorist organization would "liberate Palestine." Gadahn urged followers of Islam ?in Muslim Palestine? to welcome Bush to the region ?not with flowers and applause, but with bombs and car bombs.? Although he spoke in English the majority of the time, Gadahn made the specific call to jihad in Arabic. With a histrionic flourish, Gadahn was shown tearing up his American passport and renounced his U.S. citizenship in protest of the imprisonment of convicted terrorist Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman and the American Taliban terrorist John Walker Lindh. The White House was unmoved by the threat. Al-Qaeda offers nothing but death and violence," said Gordon Johndroe, White House national security spokesman. "I would note that this guy is wanted for treason and does not need his passport," he added. The American Al-Qaeda operative is on the FBI?s Most Wanted list and was indicted in 2006 on charges of treason and offering material support for terrorism. He is the first American to be charged with treason since World War II. Gadahn is the son of a famous 60?s Jewish rock musician, psychedelic star Phil Pearlman, who converted to Christianity's so-called "Messianic Judaism." The terrorist?s father created his own ministry, complete with a booking schedule for appearances listed on the internet. The elder Pearlman is described on his own website as a ?worship leader, recording artist and former Las Vegas entertainer? who invites the reader to ?Sit back, relax and enjoy your journey through ?Phil Pearlman Ministries? website.? Gadahn is currently believed to be hiding in Pakistan, where the Al-Qaeda terrorist organization assassinated opposition leader Benazir Bhutto and murdered 20 others in a shooting and suicide bombing attack less than two weeks ago.Comment on This Story 8. Amit Schools: Sderot Alarms Will Trip Off Country-Wide 'Alarms' by Hillel Fendel Why should Sderot suffer alone? The Amit School System has decided on a unique act of solidarity with the suffering population of Sderot: It will "sound an alarm" - i.e., stop all studies - in its nationwide schools whenever the Kassam rocket warning system goes off in Sderot.Amit, founded in 1933, is the largest religious-Zionist school system in the country, with "tens of schools" around the country, according to its website. Among them are elementary and high schools, dormitories and educational villages, ulpanot and yeshivot, a pre-military yeshiva, hesder yeshiva and girls' seminar. The directors have now decided that studies in its schools will come to a halt whenever a rocket warning stops studies in Sderot and environs. Amit employees around the country will similarly stop working when the alarms sound.Amit Director-General Dr. Amnon Eldar said, "We have been accompanying the students, teachers and families of Sderot from the beginning, and we embrace them with warmth. As a sign of solidarity with the children whose studies are interrupted sometimes several times a day, we have decided to stop our own studies every time the alarm is sounded in Sderot. We will stop, think, identify with, and even recite Psalms together on behalf of the welfare of the people of Sderot."Alon Davidi, Chairman of the Committee for a Secure Sderot, was very happy to learn of the Amit initiative, and told Arutz-7, "We hope that other schools will follow this example. It should be clear to all that there's no reason a 16-year-old student in Sderot should not be able to study while his counterparts around the country study with nary a care. We view this as a welcome wake-up call to the government to fulfill its duty to provide security to its residents."Comment on This Story 9. Video: Demolition Orders at Jewish Town in Samaria Postponed by Talia Zarbiv Residents of the town of Har Bracha were in for another scare Wednesday as the local civil authority was set to demolish the cement foundations for new trailer homes to be placed there. The plans to raze the five-year-old foundations were postponed to a later date. Click below for an IsraelNationalTV report from the town: [video:123015]Can't see video screen? Click here to watch. According to Idan Marilius, General Secretary of Har Bracha, the demolition order was merely a tactic to appease US President George W. Bush, who will be coming to Israel this week. Residents of Har Bracha are ready to struggle against Olmert's program to expel more Jews from their homes in Judea and Samaria and return to Israel's pre-1967 borders. Marilius said that for the past two years, the town hasn't been allowed to build anything. "We're not allowed to bring trailer homes, expand homes, or build kindergartens," he said.Comment on This Story Monday, Jan. 07 '0829 Tevet 5768 Torahs, Tefillin & Mezuzot A Prayer For You Enya Keshet Judaica Israel Related Simple to Remember.comExplore Judaism online with MP3s, Articles & Videos all free! Free Ticket to Israel56,000 Points. No Annual Fee. Join Today! IsraLottoThe FUN way to support Israel. Millions in prizes. 2.7c to IsraelNo Fees, High Quality Connections, and more.... Israel Charities Planning a Bat Mitzvah?Unite in the Bat Mitzvah of an Orphaned Israeli Girl Ahavas ChesedThey are all our children, Help us Help them Chai LifelineBe part of a sick child hope for a miracle For a Seriously Disabled Israeli ChildEvery bit of progress is a miracle Higher Education Touro CollegeEarn USA college credits in Israel, Bachelors and Masters. Lidrosh.comFree MP3 Torah Audio Lessons in TanyaTaught by Rabbi Ben Tzion Krasnianski. On-line and Audio downloads lessons Specials Sameach Music PodcastDownload a FREE Jewish music show. Hear previews, news, contests & interviews Personalized Silver Name Necklaces from JerusalemMany Styles and Languages Unique Jewish GiftsTruly Jewish gifts with deep Jewish meaning and authentic blessings Holy City Prayer SocietyPrayer said in your name in Jerusalem and membership in an exclusive charitable organization Torahs, Tefillin, MezuzotSales of Torah & megillah scrolls, tefillin and mezuzot from Israel Weather Forecast Partly Cloudy.Tomorrow: Chance of Rain Today Jan 08 T.A 16-10C 16-10C Haifa 16-10C 16-10C Jlm 10- 5C 10- 5C HaGolan 12- 5C 12- 6C B.Sheba 15- 7C 16- 8C Hebron 9- 4C 9- 4C Ariel 12- 6C 12- 6C J.Valley 20-11C 20-12C Galilee 10- 4C 10- 4C Eilat 19- 9C 19- 9C Weather Forecast Halachic Times Jlm. T.A. A. shachar 06:28 06:30 Talit 06:55 06:57 Sunrise 07:40 07:42 Sof Shema 10:12 10:14 Sof Tfila 11:03 11:05 Chatzot 12:45 12:46 Mincha G. 13:15 13:16 Mincha K. 15:43 15:44 Sunset 17:55 17:51 Nightfall 18:08 18:09 Currencies Update: 04/01/2008 US Dollar 3.807 ? GB Sterling 7.5242 ? Yen (100) 3.4808 ? Euro 5.6009 ? Can $ 3.8486 ? Swiss Franc 3.4205 ? To remove yourself from the mailing list please click here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080107/8350066b/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Wed Jan 9 16:04:57 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:04:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Prayer In-Reply-To: <01c201c85281$7276b460$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <01c201c85281$7276b460$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <033F1C613A7C4624B3CA9B70CCA70299@Beeblebrox> A resounding 'Amein' to this prayer - it truly does relect our cry at this time! Thank you, Betty, for forwarding it. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 1:35 AM Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Prayer Dear friends, I intended on attaching a copy of this beautiful prayer in my last email. It seems very appropriate in view of all that is going on in these days. The very language touches so closely on so much of what has been on the dialogue lately. Normally, some of us have said it at sundown the eve of Rosh Chodesh by the Observed Calendar. I realize it is past sundown, but thought that some of you who are still up might want to pray it. Or perhaps when we get the word of the sighting of the new moon in Israel, anyone who chooses could say it then. Blessings to all of you! Betty/Elisheva A Monthly UIWU Biblical Prayer for Redemption This Biblical Prayer was commissioned and inaugurated by David Horowitz in 1991. It is recited by many, both Jews and non-Jews, at sunset, as New Moon/Month begins, as based on the standard Jewish calendar. It is an expression of our solidarity and shared faith, in accordance with Malachi 3:16-18. God of gods, Lord of lords, the Great, the Mighty, the Awesome, whose Name alone is YHVH, the Eternal God of Hosts, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Our Father, we fervently call upon You. Ah Lord God, we are but dust and ashes! We are ashamed and embarrassed to lift our faces to You, for our iniquities have risen above our heads, and our guilt has grown even to the heavens. It is not on account of our own righteousness that we offer these supplications before You, but on account of Your great compassion. What are we? What is our life? What is our goodness? What is our righteousness? What is our strength? In Your presence, Oh God, we are as nothing. Yet You have declared Yourself merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness and faithfulness. You made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm. Nothing is too difficult for You. You are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, keeping covenant forever, showing mercy to thousands who fear Your Name and keep Your Commandments. Now for a brief moment you have shown grace to us in leaving an escaped remnant who sigh and cry over all the sins of Israel and the nations. You have declared, YHVH, our God, RETURN TO ME, AND I WILL RETURN TO YOU. We do RETURN O God! We fervently call upon You, we cry out to You, to SEND THE REDEEMER, to regather the lost sheep of all Israel, to crush the evil ways of the wicked. We long for that day when the Torah will go forth from Zion to all the nations, when darkness will flee away, when the veil will be removed from all Israel and the nations, when the saints of the Most High will receive the Kingdom, when You will destroy the destroyers of the earth, when wars will be forever abolished, when justice and righteousness will fill the earth as the waters cover the sea, when YHVH will be King over all the earth, and His Name One. Oh YHVH our God, God of Abraham Your friend, we call upon You together on this day, at this hour. Oh YHVH hear! Oh YHVH forgive! Oh YHVH hearken and act! Oh YHVH delay not! For Your sake and for Zion, and for Your people, and for all humankind. In the appointed TIME you will hasten it, for it will certainly come, it will not delay. We bow the knee, we sigh and cry, we turn to You, YHVH, our Rock and our Redeemer. Hear our prayer! Reading and Meditation: Zechariah 1:2-4 Malachi 3:16-24 (Hebrew) Daniel 9:1-19; chapters 2 & 7 Ezra 9:5-15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/86a68907/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Wed Jan 9 16:09:21 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:09:21 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B08F3CACE1546829358D1CEAD480CFD@Beeblebrox> Hanoch-----We lived near that mountain (Table Mountain) near the beach - it is awesome! When I see pictures of Israel, I see quite a similarity with the landscapes of some areas of South Africa. Looking forward with you to your upcoming trip to Israel - may it be all that you hope for! Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Stephen and Sharon from the land of Snow! Hi Stephen & Sharon, Thanks for forwarding the pics - I haven't seen THAT much snow in years! When I was a kid, we used to have a major snowstorm, at least once per year. But the weather in NYC has been very strange - it was 19 degrees last week, and today hit the 60's! But Sharon, I did want to mention that I got to go to Cape Town 2 years ago, with my last job, and those mountains and the clouds in the morning - WOW; it's got to be one of the most beautiful places on Earth! Best regards, Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/f77764f7/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Wed Jan 9 16:11:50 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:11:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to share In-Reply-To: <010820081622.25488.4783A33D000078AC0000639022218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> References: <010820081622.25488.4783A33D000078AC0000639022218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net> Message-ID: <221F6B26EE484AA3A6E2AFC8B35E4A84@Beeblebrox> Tammy, I found myself reflecting on this verse throughout the day yesterday - it is a weighty one! Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Tamara Michael To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:22 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Just a verse that I wanted to share Psalms 119:165 (165) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/6445e7a4/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 9 18:11:58 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:11:58 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Prayer In-Reply-To: <033F1C613A7C4624B3CA9B70CCA70299@Beeblebrox> Message-ID: <012f01c8531d$6ab20df0$643c66c9@bettygivin> I thought so too, Sharon! It seems that it so clearly sets forth the amazing premise that our Almighty G-d, the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, the Adon Olam is not too strong nor too mighty, not too majestic or grand.to look down on His people, see their hearts and heed their cries.What a G-d we have! We are indeed blessed! I am glad it was meaningful to you. Blessings on this the fourth day of Sabbath. May this month be full of many blessings! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:05 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] New Moon Prayer A resounding 'Amein' to this prayer - it truly does relect our cry at this time! Thank you, Betty, for forwarding it. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 1:35 AM Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Prayer Dear friends, I intended on attaching a copy of this beautiful prayer in my last email. It seems very appropriate in view of all that is going on in these days. The very language touches so closely on so much of what has been on the dialogue lately. Normally, some of us have said it at sundown the eve of Rosh Chodesh by the Observed Calendar. I realize it is past sundown, but thought that some of you who are still up might want to pray it. Or perhaps when we get the word of the sighting of the new moon in Israel, anyone who chooses could say it then. Blessings to all of you! Betty/Elisheva A Monthly UIWU Biblical Prayer for Redemption This Biblical Prayer was commissioned and inaugurated by David Horowitz in 1991. It is recited by many, both Jews and non-Jews, at sunset, as New Moon/Month begins, as based on the standard Jewish calendar. It is an expression of our solidarity and shared faith, in accordance with Malachi 3:16-18. God of gods, Lord of lords, the Great, the Mighty, the Awesome, whose Name alone is YHVH, the Eternal God of Hosts, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Our Father, we fervently call upon You. Ah Lord God, we are but dust and ashes! We are ashamed and embarrassed to lift our faces to You, for our iniquities have risen above our heads, and our guilt has grown even to the heavens. It is not on account of our own righteousness that we offer these supplications before You, but on account of Your great compassion. What are we? What is our life? What is our goodness? What is our righteousness? What is our strength? In Your presence, Oh God, we are as nothing. Yet You have declared Yourself merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness and faithfulness. You made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm. Nothing is too difficult for You. You are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, keeping covenant forever, showing mercy to thousands who fear Your Name and keep Your Commandments. Now for a brief moment you have shown grace to us in leaving an escaped remnant who sigh and cry over all the sins of Israel and the nations. You have declared, YHVH, our God, RETURN TO ME, AND I WILL RETURN TO YOU. We do RETURN O God! We fervently call upon You, we cry out to You, to SEND THE REDEEMER, to regather the lost sheep of all Israel, to crush the evil ways of the wicked. We long for that day when the Torah will go forth from Zion to all the nations, when darkness will flee away, when the veil will be removed from all Israel and the nations, when the saints of the Most High will receive the Kingdom, when You will destroy the destroyers of the earth, when wars will be forever abolished, when justice and righteousness will fill the earth as the waters cover the sea, when YHVH will be King over all the earth, and His Name One. Oh YHVH our God, God of Abraham Your friend, we call upon You together on this day, at this hour. Oh YHVH hear! Oh YHVH forgive! Oh YHVH hearken and act! Oh YHVH delay not! For Your sake and for Zion, and for Your people, and for all humankind. In the appointed TIME you will hasten it, for it will certainly come, it will not delay. We bow the knee, we sigh and cry, we turn to You, YHVH, our Rock and our Redeemer. Hear our prayer! Reading and Meditation: Zechariah 1:2-4 Malachi 3:16-24 (Hebrew) Daniel 9:1-19; chapters 2 & 7 Ezra 9:5-15 _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/3a87f597/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 20:02:43 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:02:43 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Jewish America on PBS Tonight!!! Message-ID: Just saw that PBS is doing a program on Jewish Americans tonght! Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/ada45025/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 9 20:03:35 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:03:35 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu Message-ID: <017b01c8532d$02acec60$643c66c9@bettygivin> From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to "think" that his actions are "blessing Israel!" I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra'el , and say, You mountains of Yisra'el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people." What is chief of the "ancient high places" but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the "lips of the talkers?!" I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/78db6542/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 20:03:58 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:03:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! Message-ID: HURRY!!!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/e73662c7/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Wed Jan 9 21:32:40 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:32:40 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! References: Message-ID: <007301c85339$744d6690$6700a8c0@davesbook> shhhhhhhh im trying to watch tv..[:~)> dave ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! HURRY!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/d8d53354/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 21:32:48 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:32:48 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu In-Reply-To: <017b01c8532d$02acec60$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <017b01c8532d$02acec60$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: This is so beautiful, Betty. I'm trying to read, write and watch The American Jews on PBS all at the same time! (The progam is winning! This is a great show.) Pat From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:03:35 -0600Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PMTo: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org'Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to ?think? that his actions are ?blessing Israel!? I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra?el , and say, You mountains of Yisra?el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people?? What is chief of the ?ancient high places? but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the ?lips of the talkers?!? I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/43a4bde3/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 21:33:23 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:33:23 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! In-Reply-To: <007301c85339$744d6690$6700a8c0@davesbook> References: <007301c85339$744d6690$6700a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: Isn't this a great show? From: dhcole1 at cox.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!!Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:32:40 -0600 shhhhhhhh im trying to watch tv..[:~)> dave ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! HURRY!!!! _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/49a8f1a7/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 9 22:03:21 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:03:21 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01be01c8533d$bdc405f0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Yes, I love it. The next one is next Wednesday at 8:00pm. Thanks so much for letting us know. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 9:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! Isn't this a great show? _____ From: dhcole1 at cox.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:32:40 -0600 shhhhhhhh im trying to watch tv..[:~)> dave ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! HURRY!!!! _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/cb479f67/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 9 22:05:22 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:05:22 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! In-Reply-To: <007301c85339$744d6690$6700a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <01c301c8533e$05dbfc80$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dave, you are too funny!!! Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 9:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! shhhhhhhh im trying to watch tv..[:~)> dave ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! HURRY!!!! _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/763398b2/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 22:26:09 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:26:09 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! Message-ID: A man of true discernment!!!!! From: dhcole1 at cox.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!!Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:32:40 -0600 shhhhhhhh im trying to watch tv..[:~)> dave ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] It's coming on RIGHT NOW!!!! HURRY!!!! _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/2d583a73/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Wed Jan 9 23:16:53 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:16:53 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow References: Message-ID: <004601c85348$042910d0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Yes Hanoch, I am listening .....Baruch HaShem!!!! This is your day!!!!!!!!!!!! So happy that he is beginning to reach out! I have 2 tallits....one huge blue and white....and another several pastel colors and smaller. Don't know why cause I never use them but I feel more secure having them. :>) Blessings, Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:26 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] there isn't always a tomorrow Hey Kim, Firstly, you can never be out of line - we're friends, so don't be shy about saying things. :-) As a matter of fact, as I was calling him daily, I mentioned to him that I was going to Israel in March for 3 weeks, to visit Kyra. And I asked, if there's anything I could bring him back (don't know why I said it, I hadn't brought him things from Israel for probably 30 years! And he asked me (Loy, are you listening - you were right...) to buy him a talit (prayer shawl), and he said he'd pay for it (although like Wimpy from Popeye, he borrows money he never repays..). Not like one he had for his Bar Mitzvah in (the little silky scarf type), but one like mine - the traditional one you drape over your shoulders - white with black stripes. The only thing I don't get is WHY he wants it...he NEVER goes to shul, EVER; not even when mom died. But who knows....? But I did reach out, just as you suggested, for the very same reason I wrote the email. There isn't always a tomorrow to 'make up.'.... Thanks Kim! Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/85fa782e/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 00:06:17 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:06:17 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Report Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801092206j4e48abc4qd20d92eeaef3612a@mail.gmail.com> Karaite Korner Newsletter #315 New Moon Report January 2008 Eleventh Biblical Month On Wednesday January 9, 2008 observers across Israel looked for the new moon but it was not sighted. There was heavy cloud coverage. The moon had 1.38% illumination and 56 minutes lagtime which puts it within the potential visibility range based on previous sightings from Israel. Rosh Hodesh Sameach! Happy New Moon! Nehemia Gordon Jerusalem, Israel For those interested in using the observed calendar, you can have the New Moon Reports emailed to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/5e80c9db/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 10 00:06:31 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:06:31 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] TUESDAY NIGHT LIVE IN JERUSALEM!!! Message-ID: <024801c8534e$f2ad7e70$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Friends, This is absolutely wonderful!!! Please read a little bit of the clip below and watch the video. You will be blessed! The link is below and provides a number of informative and inspirational videos. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/ Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem It captures the heart and soul of a new generation of vibrant Jews, proud of their identity. It is a refreshing celebration of Jewish renewal at a time that the modern Jewish State is struggling to define its own Jewish character. Jeremy Gimpel and Ari Abramowitz, radio show hosts on IsraelNationalRadio.com, kicked off the new English TV show in Jerusalem on Tuesday. Their objective is to highlight the beauty of being Jewish and being connected to the Jewish State through humor, moving anecdotes, Jewish rock music, and fast-moving upbeat insights into the Torah. They are a dynamic duo, best friends, IDF soldier-and-commander and partners in inspiration. The show's motto is "Inspire the World, Ingather the exiles, Empower the Jewish People." Jeremy and Ari - as they are known to their audiences - succeeded in bringing the spirit of Jerusalem to the hearts of viewers worldwide. The atmosphere in the standing-room-only Heichal Shlomo auditorium was electric when the show first aired. "The world only hears an Israeli voice. We want it to hear a Jewish voice," Gimpel declared, and the audience cheered wildly. Ari Abramovitz told the crowd that the basis of his friendship with Jeremy is "our love for Torah. For learning it, for teaching it. Although we don't know that much, the little bit that we do know we really try to share with the world," Please check it out! Love and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/326fb013/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/326fb013/attachment.gif From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 10 00:14:48 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:14:48 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Report In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801092206j4e48abc4qd20d92eeaef3612a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <025a01c85350$1aa10b30$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thank-you, Kim. Does that mean that it is "there," but just not yet seen due to the heavy cloud coverage? I think we might draw an analogy of that to our lives. Love, Mom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 12:06 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Report Karaite Korner Newsletter #315 New Moon Report January 2008 Eleventh Biblical Month On Wednesday January 9, 2008 observers across Israel looked for the new moon but it was not sighted. There was heavy cloud coverage. The moon had 1.38% illumination and 56 minutes lagtime which puts it within the potential visibility range based on previous sightings from Israel. Rosh Hodesh Sameach! Happy New Moon! Nehemia Gordon Jerusalem, Israel For those interested in using the observed calendar, you can have the New Moon Reports emailed to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/ec5b5431/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 00:20:46 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:20:46 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Report In-Reply-To: <025a01c85350$1aa10b30$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <1c8dbb6e0801092206j4e48abc4qd20d92eeaef3612a@mail.gmail.com> <025a01c85350$1aa10b30$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801092220x162fb889n37f74c9c05b4081f@mail.gmail.com> Yes, some groups won't start the new month until the moon is actually seen, but most go by when it should be seen, if not for the clouds. It is like our lives, all part of "seeing through that glass darkly". On Jan 10, 2008 12:14 AM, Betty Givin wrote: > Thank-you, Kim. Does that mean that it is "there," but just not yet seen > due to the heavy cloud coverage? I think we might draw an analogy of that > to our lives. Love, Mom > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *kim alvarado > *Sent:* Thursday, January 10, 2008 12:06 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] New Moon Report > > > > Karaite Korner Newsletter #315 > > New Moon Report > January 2008 > Eleventh Biblical Month > > On Wednesday January 9, 2008 observers across Israel looked for the > new moon but it was not sighted. There was heavy cloud coverage. The > moon had 1.38% illumination and 56 minutes lagtime which puts it > within the potential visibility range based on previous sightings from > Israel. > > Rosh Hodesh Sameach! > Happy New Moon! > > Nehemia Gordon > Jerusalem, Israel > > > > For those interested in using the observed calendar, you can have the New > Moon Reports emailed to you. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/8725d0d9/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 00:26:50 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:26:50 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] change of plans: Bush will meet with Netanyahu tomorrow Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801092226v5a1356fej951937cbb3de4e0c@mail.gmail.com> Article in the Jerusalem Post: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1198517338424&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull I think this is a positive step. I pray that through Netanyahu, Bush's eyes will be opened. That he will know that "whoever blesses Israel shall be blessed and whoever curses Israel shall be cursed". Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/d30555d3/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 10 00:31:54 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:31:54 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <027901c85352$7dece540$643c66c9@bettygivin> I just heard on Israeli TV broadcast that Bush WILL be meeting with Netanyu after all. It will be on Thursday which is good news! It is exciting that James will be there. Bush is staying at the King David Hotel. I am not sure where he is staying. At least he will have the opportunity to hear something sensible.I just re read the passage in Ezekiel 36 below and can't get over how fitting it is. May Bush's eyes and ears be opened! Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 9:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu This is so beautiful, Betty. I'm trying to read, write and watch The American Jews on PBS all at the same time! (The progam is winning! This is a great show.) Pat _____ From: bkgivin at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:03:35 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to "think" that his actions are "blessing Israel!" I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra'el , and say, You mountains of Yisra'el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people." What is chief of the "ancient high places" but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the "lips of the talkers?!" I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/5592ecff/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 10 00:38:13 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:38:13 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] change of plans: Bush will meet with Netanyahu tomorrow In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801092226v5a1356fej951937cbb3de4e0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <028a01c85353$5ff2fc90$643c66c9@bettygivin> Kim, our emails must have crossed in cyberspace. I just posted the same thing with similar wording.amazing.yes, very positive.and may it be so! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 12:27 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] change of plans: Bush will meet with Netanyahu tomorrow Article in the Jerusalem Post: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1198517338424 &pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull I think this is a positive step. I pray that through Netanyahu, Bush's eyes will be opened. That he will know that "whoever blesses Israel shall be blessed and whoever curses Israel shall be cursed". Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/c73afd6a/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Thu Jan 10 00:50:50 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:50:50 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu References: <017b01c8532d$02acec60$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <020e01c85355$23bb4460$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> In my opinion Betty: Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? .........to implement the New World Order. Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want as an example. I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human being! That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to "think" that his actions are "blessing Israel!" I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra'el , and say, You mountains of Yisra'el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people." What is chief of the "ancient high places" but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the "lips of the talkers?!" I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/4f97b2c6/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Thu Jan 10 00:52:05 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:52:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu References: <017b01c8532d$02acec60$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <021801c85355$5079bc20$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> AMEN, BETTY ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to "think" that his actions are "blessing Israel!" I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra'el , and say, You mountains of Yisra'el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people." What is chief of the "ancient high places" but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the "lips of the talkers?!" I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/44804a31/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jan 10 06:30:30 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:30:30 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Think about this... Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Something to think about today - Hanoch Jeremiah 31 31. "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32. not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/b82bf702/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 09:20:10 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:20:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu In-Reply-To: <020e01c85355$23bb4460$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> References: <017b01c8532d$02acec60$643c66c9@bettygivin> <020e01c85355$23bb4460$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: Interesting, Loy. I didn't vote for him (and tried to convince other not to do so), but over the years have softened a tiny bit toward him, though Condi Rice still leaves me completely cold! There is evil afoot here for sure. May HaShem protect Israel, and may we pray for the peace (wholeness) of Jerusalem. Pat From: loyb at prodigy.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing NeyanyahuDate: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:50:50 -0600 In my opinion Betty: Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? .........to implement the New World Order. Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want as an example. I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human being! That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PMTo: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org'Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to ?think? that his actions are ?blessing Israel!? I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra?el , and say, You mountains of Yisra?el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people?? What is chief of the ?ancient high places? but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the ?lips of the talkers?!? I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/8f252688/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 10 15:41:43 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:41:43 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Steven Spielberg Jewish Film Archive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <033901c853d1$977bea90$643c66c9@bettygivin> Pat, checking older email.thanks so much for this wonderful footage! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:03 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Steven Spielberg Jewish Film Archive Contains incredible footage of Brother Judah's history. http://w3.castup.net/JFA/FilmsScreen.asp?NFilm=format%3Dwm%26s%3D8F442B33370 34892ACC92596201F5E81%26ci%3D17509%26ak%3Dnull%26ClipMediaID%3D23331 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/9612e499/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 10 15:44:53 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:44:53 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Think about this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <033e01c853d2$08ed0dd0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Yes!!! Thanks, Hanoch. These promises are sure! May they come to pass in our day! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Think about this... Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Something to think about today - Hanoch Jeremiah 31 31. "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32. not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/45b69af0/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 9 14:38:09 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:38:09 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] God's Boxes Message-ID: <00c301c852ff$8c3b8c30$643c66c9@bettygivin> _____ Friends, I rarely send these type messages around, but I deleted all the excess verbage that went with it and kept just the message. I think it is worthwhile and wanted to share it with you! Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could always put this into practice every day? Thinking of you all today. Love, Betty _____ _____ God's Boxes I have in my hands two boxes, Which God gave me to hold. He said, "Put all your sorrows in the black box, And all your joys in the gold." I heeded His words, and in the two boxes, Both my joys and sorrows I stored, But though the gold became heavier each day, The black was as light as before. With curiosity, I opened the black, I wanted to find out why, And I saw, in the base of the box, a hole, Which my sorrows had fallen out by. I showed the hole to God, and mused, "I wonder where my sorrows could be!" He smiled a gentle smile and said, "My child, they're all here with me.." I asked God, why He gave me the boxes, Why the gold and the black with the hole? "My child, the gold is for you to count your blessings, The black is for you to let go." We should consider all of our friends a blessing. Send this to a friend today just to let them know you are thinking of them and that they are a joy in your life. A ball is a circle, no beginning, no end. It keeps us together like our Circle of Friends. But the treasure inside for you to see, Is the treasure of friendship you've granted to me. Today I pass the friendship ball to you. Pass it on to someone who is a friend to you... _____ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out! _____ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows VistaR + Windows LiveT. Start now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/60750eb1/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 9708 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/60750eb1/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 6995 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/60750eb1/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 14891 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/60750eb1/attachment-0002.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 29511 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/60750eb1/attachment-0003.gif From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 9 19:50:57 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:50:57 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] EZEK 36 & A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Message-ID: <016b01c8532b$3ea837d0$643c66c9@bettygivin> _____ From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to "think" that his actions are "blessing Israel!" I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra'el , and say, You mountains of Yisra'el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people." What is chief of the "ancient high places" but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the "lips of the talkers?!" I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080109/9edfd7b7/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jan 10 16:09:26 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:09:26 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Prayer In-Reply-To: <01c201c85281$7276b460$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <01c201c85281$7276b460$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: Betty thanks so much for sending this out. I had intended to do so myself but was so terribly pressed with my job and trying to arrange to be away all next week for this conference. I do want us to take up this monthly habit again. I will relate at some point when I get to Jerusalem, how the whole idea originated. Shevat is indeed a significant month, very positive in the Torah. More later... James On Jan 9, 2008, at 12:35 AM, Betty Givin wrote: > Dear friends, > > I intended on attaching a copy of this beautiful prayer in my last > email. It seems very appropriate in view of all that is going on in > these days. The very language touches so closely on so much of what > has been on the dialogue lately. > > Normally, some of us have said it at sundown the eve of Rosh Chodesh > by the Observed Calendar. I realize it is past sundown, but thought > that some of you who are still up might want to pray it. > Or perhaps when we get the word of the sighting of the new moon in > Israel, anyone who chooses could say it then. Blessings to all of > you! Betty/Elisheva > > > A Monthly UIWU Biblical Prayer for Redemption > This Biblical Prayer was commissioned and inaugurated by David > Horowitz in 1991. It is recited by many, both Jews and non-Jews, at > sunset, as New Moon/Month begins, as based on the standard Jewish > calendar. It is an expression of our solidarity and shared faith, in > accordance with Malachi 3:16-18. > > God of gods, Lord of lords, the Great, the Mighty, the Awesome, > whose Name alone is YHVH, the Eternal God of Hosts, God of Abraham, > Isaac and Jacob, Our Father, we fervently call upon You. > Ah Lord God, we are but dust and ashes! We are ashamed and > embarrassed to lift our faces to You, for our iniquities have risen > above our heads, and our guilt has grown even to the heavens. It is > not on account of our own righteousness that we offer these > supplications before You, but on account of Your great compassion. > What are we? What is our life? What is our goodness? What is our > righteousness? What is our strength? In Your presence, Oh God, we > are as nothing. > Yet You have declared Yourself merciful and gracious, slow to anger, > abounding in lovingkindness and faithfulness. You made the heavens > and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm. > Nothing is too difficult for You. You are the God of Abraham, Isaac, > and Jacob, keeping covenant forever, showing mercy to thousands who > fear Your Name and keep Your Commandments. Now for a brief moment > you have shown grace to us in leaving an escaped remnant who sigh > and cry over all the sins of Israel and the nations. > You have declared, YHVH, our God, RETURN TO ME, AND I WILL RETURN TO > YOU. We do RETURN O God! We fervently call upon You, we cry out to > You, to SEND THE REDEEMER, to regather the lost sheep of all Israel, > to crush the evil ways of the wicked. We long for that day when the > Torah will go forth from Zion to all the nations, when darkness will > flee away, when the veil will be removed from all Israel and the > nations, when the saints of the Most High will receive the Kingdom, > when You will destroy the destroyers of the earth, when wars will be > forever abolished, when justice and righteousness will fill the > earth as the waters cover the sea, when YHVH will be King over all > the earth, and His Name One. > Oh YHVH our God, God of Abraham Your friend, we call upon You > together on this day, at this hour. Oh YHVH hear! Oh YHVH forgive! > Oh YHVH hearken and act! Oh YHVH delay not! For Your sake and for > Zion, and for Your people, and for all humankind. In the appointed > TIME you will hasten it, for it will certainly come, it will not > delay. We bow the knee, we sigh and cry, we turn to You, YHVH, our > Rock and our Redeemer. Hear our prayer! > Reading and Meditation: > > Zechariah 1:2-4 > Malachi 3:16-24 (Hebrew) > > Daniel 9:1-19; chapters 2 & 7 > > Ezra 9:5-15 > > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/06fcc81f/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 10 17:05:39 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:05:39 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] New Moon Prayer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <037f01c853dd$51b03780$643c66c9@bettygivin> You are welcome, James. It is a good and worthwhile thing that we can do in solidarity. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] New Moon Prayer Betty thanks so much for sending this out. I had intended to do so myself but was so terribly pressed with my job and trying to arrange to be away all next week for this conference. I do want us to take up this monthly habit again. I will relate at some point when I get to Jerusalem, how the whole idea originated. Shevat is indeed a significant month, very positive in the Torah. More later... James On Jan 9, 2008, at 12:35 AM, Betty Givin wrote: Dear friends, I intended on attaching a copy of this beautiful prayer in my last email. It seems very appropriate in view of all that is going on in these days. The very language touches so closely on so much of what has been on the dialogue lately. Normally, some of us have said it at sundown the eve of Rosh Chodesh by the Observed Calendar. I realize it is past sundown, but thought that some of you who are still up might want to pray it. Or perhaps when we get the word of the sighting of the new moon in Israel, anyone who chooses could say it then. Blessings to all of you! Betty/Elisheva A Monthly UIWU Biblical Prayer for Redemption This Biblical Prayer was commissioned and inaugurated by David Horowitz in 1991. It is recited by many, both Jews and non-Jews, at sunset, as New Moon/Month begins, as based on the standard Jewish calendar. It is an expression of our solidarity and shared faith, in accordance with Malachi 3:16-18. God of gods, Lord of lords, the Great, the Mighty, the Awesome, whose Name alone is YHVH, the Eternal God of Hosts, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Our Father, we fervently call upon You. Ah Lord God, we are but dust and ashes! We are ashamed and embarrassed to lift our faces to You, for our iniquities have risen above our heads, and our guilt has grown even to the heavens. It is not on account of our own righteousness that we offer these supplications before You, but on account of Your great compassion. What are we? What is our life? What is our goodness? What is our righteousness? What is our strength? In Your presence, Oh God, we are as nothing. Yet You have declared Yourself merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness and faithfulness. You made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm. Nothing is too difficult for You. You are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, keeping covenant forever, showing mercy to thousands who fear Your Name and keep Your Commandments. Now for a brief moment you have shown grace to us in leaving an escaped remnant who sigh and cry over all the sins of Israel and the nations. You have declared, YHVH, our God, RETURN TO ME, AND I WILL RETURN TO YOU. We do RETURN O God! We fervently call upon You, we cry out to You, to SEND THE REDEEMER, to regather the lost sheep of all Israel, to crush the evil ways of the wicked. We long for that day when the Torah will go forth from Zion to all the nations, when darkness will flee away, when the veil will be removed from all Israel and the nations, when the saints of the Most High will receive the Kingdom, when You will destroy the destroyers of the earth, when wars will be forever abolished, when justice and righteousness will fill the earth as the waters cover the sea, when YHVH will be King over all the earth, and His Name One. Oh YHVH our God, God of Abraham Your friend, we call upon You together on this day, at this hour. Oh YHVH hear! Oh YHVH forgive! Oh YHVH hearken and act! Oh YHVH delay not! For Your sake and for Zion, and for Your people, and for all humankind. In the appointed TIME you will hasten it, for it will certainly come, it will not delay. We bow the knee, we sigh and cry, we turn to You, YHVH, our Rock and our Redeemer. Hear our prayer! Reading and Meditation: Zechariah 1:2-4 Malachi 3:16-24 (Hebrew) Daniel 9:1-19; chapters 2 & 7 Ezra 9:5-15 _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/4e66dfcc/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 10 17:23:34 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:23:34 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Comments on Bush Visit & Joy filled Jerusalem Live TV show! In-Reply-To: <020e01c85355$23bb4460$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <039001c853df$d2740390$643c66c9@bettygivin> Loy, I always respect the opinions of others, but I am not sure that I agree. Maybe it is just that I am not that astute, but I have not noticed that President Bush goes from one personality to another, just that he sometimes stumbles on his words. As I said earlier, I do believe that he is a man who loves G-d, but it seems that he has been put into a difficult position and has been swayed by political pressure as have so many of our politicians .I just pray that he will listen to what Netanyahu and over 50% of the Israeli people are saying and that he may turn from his course of action that seems bent of dividing Jerusalem, and do the right thing. Have you checked out the video Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem yet? That is by far the most exciting video I have seen in a long time. The hosts, the performers and the audience are "on fire" for the message of the solidarity of the Jewish State and are calling for all Jews everywhere to make aliyah, to come home and not delay! I have seen this fervor and spirit among the Chassidic Jews, but not the everyday Jews.I refer to them this way because that is what they seemed to be.there was no mention of putting people in categories.just that they were all Jews, loved their country, and believed that Jerusalem should never be divided! If I had not known that they were Jews, I would have thought it was a group of charismatic Christians with all the hand clapping, lively music and joy being shared. Many had left profitable jobs in the U.S. or other countries of origin, but had left it all and made aliyah and shared with the group their reasons. I think Hanoch said it well, "Anis tan Yehudi," I am just a Jew..that was the theme. Having lived there, Loy, and made aliyah, I am sure that you would relate.and Pat too, and of course Hanoch. Never having been, I was just overwhelmed by their Simcha (joy) and their fervor and fighting back tears of joy myself.I could picture us all there in that crowd and fitting in completely!!! Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Loy Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 12:51 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu In my opinion Betty: Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? .........to implement the New World Order. Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want as an example. I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human being! That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to "think" that his actions are "blessing Israel!" I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra'el , and say, You mountains of Yisra'el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people." What is chief of the "ancient high places" but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the "lips of the talkers?!" I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/32986e8b/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Thu Jan 10 13:51:44 2008 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:51:44 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu In-Reply-To: References: <017b01c8532d$02acec60$643c66c9@bettygivin><020e01c85355$23bb4460$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <08A05D5444604CE49C5AE0F533D8621B@Akai> What exactly is the New World Order that's being referred to? ( I have an idea, just putting it out there for discussion) Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu Interesting, Loy. I didn't vote for him (and tried to convince other not to do so), but over the years have softened a tiny bit toward him, though Condi Rice still leaves me completely cold! There is evil afoot here for sure. May HaShem protect Israel, and may we pray for the peace (wholeness) of Jerusalem. Pat ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: loyb at prodigy.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:50:50 -0600 In my opinion Betty: Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? .........to implement the New World Order. Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want as an example. I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human being! That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to ?think? that his actions are ?blessing Israel!? I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra?el , and say, You mountains of Yisra?el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people?? What is chief of the ?ancient high places? but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the ?lips of the talkers?!? I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/6b582b13/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 10 17:28:35 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:28:35 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Ani stan Yehudi, and Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem! Message-ID: <039501c853e0$85864c90$643c66c9@bettygivin> Correction to last email. I meant to say, "Anis tan Yehudi." I am just a Jew.( I get it right, Hanoch? ) Instead of what I wrote below. I think Hanoch said it well, "Anis tan Yehudi," I am just a Jew..that was the theme. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/ca2c6e8d/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 18:05:13 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:05:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu In-Reply-To: <020e01c85355$23bb4460$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <616894.7006.qm@web37501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My I add my hearty amen to that, Loy. If you pay attention to his gestures, they always have significance. The ring he wears on his right hand is from his skull and bones days...the man has never renounced or resigned from that 'dark' group. That, however, does not excuse us to pray for our leaders, even in this time of darkness creeping over this country. Jacob's trouble is 'at the door' Shalom, Paul-Eugene MIller Loy wrote: st1\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui) } In my opinion Betty: Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? .........to implement the New World Order. Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want as an example. I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human being! That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to ?think? that his actions are ?blessing Israel!? I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra?el , and say, You mountains of Yisra?el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people ? What is chief of the ?ancient high places? but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the ?lips of the talkers?!? I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/0412f27b/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 18:08:35 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:08:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu In-Reply-To: <08A05D5444604CE49C5AE0F533D8621B@Akai> Message-ID: <428614.60770.qm@web37514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> New World Order, is total control of mankind by a few elite. Every year those 'in the know and power' meet to discuss their goals and tactics. They are frightenly fast becoming reality. Hang on tight, keep the faith, because there is a shaking coming, but....the blessed return of our Saviour Yahshua is imminent. Paul sherry cole wrote: .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } BODY.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma } What exactly is the New World Order that's being referred to? ( I have an idea, just putting it out there for discussion) Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu Interesting, Loy. I didn't vote for him (and tried to convince other not to do so), but over the years have softened a tiny bit toward him, though Condi Rice still leaves me completely cold! There is evil afoot here for sure. May HaShem protect Israel, and may we pray for the peace (wholeness) of Jerusalem. Pat --------------------------------- From: loyb at prodigy.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:50:50 -0600 .ExternalClass EC_p.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_li.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_div.MsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman';} .ExternalClass a:link, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass EC_span.EmailStyle17 {font-family:Arial;color:windowtext;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt;} .ExternalClass EC_div.Section1 {page:Section1;} In my opinion Betty: Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? .........to implement the New World Order. Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want as an example. I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human being! That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to ?think? that his actions are ?blessing Israel!? I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra?el , and say, You mountains of Yisra?el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people ? What is chief of the ?ancient high places? but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the ?lips of the talkers?!? I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/b1fc2fa6/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jan 10 18:28:56 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:28:56 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Ani stan Yehudi, and Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem! Message-ID: Hi Becky - No, it's actually: "ani stam Yehudi" 'I am just a Jew' :-) I don't know what you had been referring to regarding 'joyous' Israelis, but those with REAL spirit in Israel are those in, what's referred to as the "Orange Movement." Orange having been adopted during the struggle to try to save Gush Katif. These are the people trying to prevent Jerusalem from being torn from our hands, those that settle Yehuda (Judea) & Shomron (Samaria). Take care, Hanoch They are among the best people that Israel has........ **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/541cc75d/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 18:56:29 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:56:29 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem Message-ID: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one&id=2206 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/09f0cd6a/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 20:10:28 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:10:28 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyah In-Reply-To: <428614.60770.qm@web37514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <08A05D5444604CE49C5AE0F533D8621B@Akai> <428614.60770.qm@web37514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801101810pbacbf74q8be6ea10569057b1@mail.gmail.com> I agree that we must continue praying for our leaders. Kim On Jan 10, 2008 6:08 PM, Paul-Eugene Miller wrote: > New World Order, is total control of mankind by a few elite. Every year > those 'in the know and power' meet to discuss their goals and tactics. They > are frightenly fast becoming reality. Hang on tight, keep the faith, because > there is a shaking coming, but....the blessed return of our Saviour Yahshua > is imminent. > Paul > > *sherry cole * wrote: > > What exactly is the New World Order that's being referred to? ( I have an > idea, just putting it out there for discussion) > > Blessings, > Sherry > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* patricia robbins > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:20 AM > *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu > > Interesting, Loy. I didn't vote for him (and tried to convince other > not to do so), but over the years have softened a tiny bit toward him, > though Condi Rice still leaves me completely cold! There is evil afoot here > for sure. May HaShem protect Israel, and may we pray for the peace > (wholeness) of Jerusalem. > > Pat > > > ------------------------------ > From: loyb at prodigy.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu > Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:50:50 -0600 > > In my opinion Betty: > > Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push > the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only > able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what > he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been > trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to > speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his > cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly > crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". > > It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he > is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? > .........to implement the New World Order. > Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 > corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want > as an example. > > I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand > scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have > great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human > being! > > That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't > really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. > > Blessings, Loy Leorah > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Betty Givin > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM > *Subject:* [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu > > *From:* Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM > *To:* 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' <%27dialogue at rootsoffaith.org%27> > *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit > > Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to > his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d > will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his > pillow at night and be deluded enough to "think" that his actions are > "blessing Israel!" > > I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what > is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is > from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed > in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a > look for yourself! > > Ezekiel 36:1 ff > And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra'el , and say, You > mountains of Yisra'el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; *Because > the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours > in possession*, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because > they have made you desolate, and *swallowed you up on every side,* that > you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and *you are taken > up in the lips of the talkers, *and are become the gossip of the people?" > > What is chief of the "ancient high places" but Jerusalem?! Israel is > presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border > having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the "lips of the > talkers?!" I wonder who that could be????!!!!! > > How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! > > Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, > > Betty/Elisheva > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > *Paul-Eugene Miller* > Cell: 740.504.2612 > > > > From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the > work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. > -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon > > ------------------------------ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/da367d75/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jan 10 20:19:07 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:19:07 EST Subject: [Dialogue] an article worth reading Message-ID: Mr. President, the world's fate is in your hands Michael Freund, THE JERUSALEM POST January 9, 2008 Dear President Bush, welcome to Israel. It has been 10 years since your last visit, and your return to the Holy Land could not have come at a more critical time. There is a storm gathering in the region, one that threatens to engulf not only Israel, but the United States too. Freedom and democracy, liberty and tolerance, everything we hold dear is now in jeopardy, as the Tyrant of Teheran continues to march forward down the road toward Armageddon. The clock is ticking, yet no one wishes to hear. The countdown to a nuclear Iran has begun, and with each passing day the nightmare scenario draws closer to becoming a reality. Mr. President, I am gripped by a sense of fear. I fear for the future of Israel and the entire Jewish people, as the would-be Hitler of Persia readies to do battle against us with the most horrific of weapons. I fear for the future of the West, because few seem to appreciate the enormity of the danger that is looming just over the horizon. And I fear for the future of the world, because if Iran's fundamentalists get their hands on a nuclear weapon, it will only be a matter of time before they share their new arsenal with their terrorist allies abroad. Hence, Mr. President, I am writing to you because I am convinced that you do understand the gravity of the situation, and I pray in my heart that you will not let it stand. I appeal to you now, not as a newspaper columnist nor as a political analyst, but as one man of faith to another: Please bomb Iran and dismantle its nuclear weapons program, before it is too late. I KNOW you believe, as I do, that it is the Lord God of Hosts Who guides the destiny of men and of nations. And I know you believe, just as I do, that He has raised you up and placed you in a position of power precisely at this decisive moment, in order to serve as His faithful instrument in this world. The God of history has chosen you, Mr. President, just as He did Winston Churchill, and He has entrusted you with a sacred mandate: to save the world from the designs of a madman. Less than 1,000 miles to the east of us, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is building an Iranian Auschwitz. Instead of firing up gas chambers, he is installing centrifuges. And in place of Zyklon-B gas, his agent of choice will be uranium. The threat to the existence of the Jewish people, and that of the entire Western world, is no less dire than it was six decades ago in Europe. If the ayatollahs are allowed to start producing nuclear weapons, they will spread nuclear terror far and wide, placing the future of Western civilization in doubt. Indeed, the Persian executioner has already made it abundantly clear that he plans to wipe Israel and its millions of Jews off the map. And he has also made it equally manifest that the West's turn is next. The answer to this challenge lies not in the halls of the United Nations nor in the capitals of Europe. And we cannot rely on Russia or China to do what is right for the sake of humanity. Here in Israel, our own leaders are weak. They have lost their way, and they are no longer anchored in faith. As we saw two years ago in the Lebanon war, they stumble about as though walking in darkness, seemingly oblivious to the danger that stalks us all. THERE IS only one person now, Mr. President, with the ability to stop this terrifying scenario from coming to pass, and I believe that person is you. The mighty arm of the United States, stretched out in faith and in force, can stop the menace of a nuclear-armed Iran from becoming a reality. Mr. Bush, I think of you often, and when I do, I am guided in faith to the sixth chapter of the Book of Judges in the Bible. When Israel's existence was threatened by the Midianites, God called upon Gideon, son of Joash, to step forward and take command, and to wage war against the aggressors. But Gideon remained uncertain of what to do, wondering whether God had forsaken His people and if war was truly the right course. To this the Lord responded clearly and unequivocally: "Go with this, your strength, and you will save Israel? for have I not sent thee?" Mr. President, that message is as compelling today as it was then, and I believe it is clearly directed to you too. The decision you face is not an easy one, and I do not mean to suggest otherwise. But in the case of Iran, there can be no room for retreat, or for shrinking from the task at hand. The stakes are simply too great. SURE, THE critics will try to tear you down, just as they have been doing since the day you were elected. They will heap scorn on you, call you a warmonger, and worse, and denigrate you and your family for many, many years to come. But please don't allow them to deter you or to drive you to despair. You know as well as I do that the only verdict that counts, the only one that truly matters, is the one that is penned in Heaven, by He who calls out to us each and every day and declares: "I am the Lord, and there is none else" (Isaiah chap. 45). Mr. President, in 12 months' time you will leave office. In the greater scheme of things, I am convinced that your legacy will depend largely on the decisions you make in the coming few months regarding Iran. I urge you, I plead with you: Don't walk out of the White House in January 2009 without having stopped Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Don't leave the fate of Israel and the West hanging in the balance. Of course, regardless of what you decide, God will save His people Israel. Deliverance comes from Him, and Him alone. But each of us must do our part to help bring it about. You have been entrusted from Above with a special opportunity, with a distinctive role to play. It is a tremendous responsibility that the Creator has placed upon your shoulders, but it is also a sacred mandate. I DO NOT envy the dilemma that you face. But you have been put in a unique position to bless Israel, and through it, all of humanity, by removing the nuclear sword from the hand of the Persian executioner. I, along with many others, will be praying for you, and I hope that you take this message to heart. Be strong and of good courage. And may the spirit of the Lord be upon you. God bless. ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 _mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org _ (mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org) _http://www.womeningreen.org _ (http://www.womeningreen.org/) To make a contribution through Paypal, go to: _https://www.paypal.com _ (https://www.paypal.com/) click on "Send Money" to the address wfit2 at womeningreen.org **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/e1aeaeda/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 10 20:41:51 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:41:51 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Ani stam Yehudi, and TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <03dc01c853fb$852facd0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, this is Betty, but you can call me Becky. Thanks for the correction.I am still in a learning process. The 'joyous Israelis' I was referring to were the ones on the new TV show being aired in Jerusalem that I have posted several emails about. Their motto is to save Jerusalem and to be a light to the nations and they say that they are just Jews.Jews of all kinds.who have made aliyah and come together as Jews from Jerusalem to speak to the world. It is called TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM, The link is : http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one &id=2206 It is hosted by two IDF reservists who are good friends and who love Torah and want to promote the solidarity of Jerusalem. I am not sure whether they are members of the "Orange Movement" or not, but they seem to have a similar agenda; they definitely love Israel and are trying to save Jerusalem! The two hosts also have a radio program called "Light to the Nations." The show is sponsored by OHR OLAM (light of the world), The Center for Biblical Zionism.right down our alley! I think you would love it.the teaching and dialogue, the sharing from the audience, the wonderful music and the Simcha (joy)! I could see us right there amongst them! This is so exciting! I do hope that you and all will check it out!. This may be my third email about it.as I am so excited. Link is below. Baruch HaShem and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one &id=2206 _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:29 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ani stan Yehudi, and Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem! Hi Becky - No, it's actually: "ani stam Yehudi" 'I am just a Jew' :-) I don't know what you had been referring to regarding 'joyous' Israelis, but those with REAL spirit in Israel are those in, what's referred to as the "Orange Movement." Orange having been adopted during the struggle to try to save Gush Katif. These are the people trying to prevent Jerusalem from being torn from our hands, those that settle Yehuda (Judea) & Shomron (Samaria). Take care, Hanoch They are among the best people that Israel has........ _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/8adf8054/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Thu Jan 10 23:13:46 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:13:46 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu References: <428614.60770.qm@web37514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011401c85410$bebf5800$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> The N.W.O.is the overall plan of the "movers and shakers" of this world. The meeting Paul is speaking of is called the Bilderberger Meeting.....named after the "place" where the 1st meeting was held some yrs ago. They meet every 2 yrs to lay out what wars etc.etc. that they will bring about to accomplish their goals. It used to be limited to 1500 people but now many media people as well as wheeler/dealers of the world in the secular realm are included included Barbara Walters a couple of yrs ago when it was held in Sentra (a suburb of Lisbon), Portugal. I was told that you can Goggle and find the list of attendees. The meeting place is heavily guarded by the Defense Forces of the host country. One journalist (not invited) overheard the response of the defender to a would-be "party-crasher"....."You can climb over that fence to get in but you will never get out." I knew a woman who was the stewardess on Tom Hicks' (owner of the Dallas Maverick Hockey team ) private jet who told me they (she,Tom and Big Bush were flying to Lisbon, Portugal for a few days which happened to be at the same time as the above meeting. Later, when she returned and after learning where the meeting was to be held....at Sentra I asked her how she liked Sentra......and she responded that she loved it. ....not realizing that she never told me they were going to Sentra only to Lisbon. She is totally ignorant of what her boss is a part of. They then flew to Bohemian Grove (since 1880's a playground for the rulers of our country then, and now includes the member's of the CFR Council on foreign Relations, 45 minutes north of San Francisco) This is a very wicked, evil place to say the least!!! I asked what they do there.....? and she said that they take their own guns and hunt. " They flew from there to Canada to go "hunting" with the head of Canada, like the president" .... she named him but I don't remember his name. This was about 4 yrs ago. These are only a couple of the answers of confirmation I recv'd when asking HaShem to confirm some of the ...what I thought at the time ...outlandish things that I was reading about concerning what is really going on within the rulership of not only "our country" but of the whole world scene. Like I said earlier....once I understood the "over-all plan".....or saw the box-top of the puzzle.....then everything "crazy" that happens...suddenly comes into focus and makes perfect sense. We see many of the puzzle pieces for many years but nothing seems to fit....and then POW every thing begins to line up! It is written, "Be not ignorant of the devices of the devil". I don't "worry" myself with the evil of this world because HaShem will have the "last say"! We are called just to endure to the end! and with understanding comes peace. Shalom, leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul-Eugene Miller To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu New World Order, is total control of mankind by a few elite. Every year those 'in the know and power' meet to discuss their goals and tactics. They are frightenly fast becoming reality. Hang on tight, keep the faith, because there is a shaking coming, but....the blessed return of our Saviour Yahshua is imminent. Paul sherry cole wrote: What exactly is the New World Order that's being referred to? ( I have an idea, just putting it out there for discussion) Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu Interesting, Loy. I didn't vote for him (and tried to convince other not to do so), but over the years have softened a tiny bit toward him, though Condi Rice still leaves me completely cold! There is evil afoot here for sure. May HaShem protect Israel, and may we pray for the peace (wholeness) of Jerusalem. Pat ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: loyb at prodigy.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:50:50 -0600 In my opinion Betty: Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? .........to implement the New World Order. Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want as an example. I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human being! That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to "think" that his actions are "blessing Israel!" I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra'el , and say, You mountains of Yisra'el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people." What is chief of the "ancient high places" but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the "lips of the talkers?!" I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/50970591/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Thu Jan 10 23:31:24 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:31:24 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Comments on Bush Visit & Joy filled Jerusalem Live TVshow! References: <039001c853df$d2740390$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <013c01c85413$35281430$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Betty, These joyous people sound like they are Chabad....jews. a certain sect. I like them too. Wish they were in my area I would probably join them. I did not set out to make a study of these things but about 6 or 7 yrs ago ,for about 3 years HaShem just seemed to bring to me books, videos, tapes,movies, people etc who all had the same message or more puzzle pieces to the message . That is how I know what I know. BUT I don't just randomely accept what I read or hear.....but then He would confirm these things thru first and second hand information & people who had experienced and known to be true..... "to boot." I certainly don't like what I know but only time will tell...but like Paul said earlier "They are frightenly fast becoming reality." Refere to my reply to Paul for more. We can't all know it all. Shalom, Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 5:23 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Comments on Bush Visit & Joy filled Jerusalem Live TVshow! Loy, I always respect the opinions of others, but I am not sure that I agree. Maybe it is just that I am not that astute, but I have not noticed that President Bush goes from one personality to another, just that he sometimes stumbles on his words. As I said earlier, I do believe that he is a man who loves G-d, but it seems that he has been put into a difficult position and has been swayed by political pressure as have so many of our politicians .I just pray that he will listen to what Netanyahu and over 50% of the Israeli people are saying and that he may turn from his course of action that seems bent of dividing Jerusalem, and do the right thing. Have you checked out the video Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem yet? That is by far the most exciting video I have seen in a long time. The hosts, the performers and the audience are "on fire" for the message of the solidarity of the Jewish State and are calling for all Jews everywhere to make aliyah, to come home and not delay! I have seen this fervor and spirit among the Chassidic Jews, but not the everyday Jews.I refer to them this way because that is what they seemed to be.there was no mention of putting people in categories.just that they were all Jews, loved their country, and believed that Jerusalem should never be divided! If I had not known that they were Jews, I would have thought it was a group of charismatic Christians with all the hand clapping, lively music and joy being shared. Many had left profitable jobs in the U.S. or other countries of origin, but had left it all and made aliyah and shared with the group their reasons. I think Hanoch said it well, "Anis tan Yehudi," I am just a Jew..that was the theme. Having lived there, Loy, and made aliyah, I am sure that you would relate.and Pat too, and of course Hanoch. Never having been, I was just overwhelmed by their Simcha (joy) and their fervor and fighting back tears of joy myself.I could picture us all there in that crowd and fitting in completely!!! Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Loy Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 12:51 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu In my opinion Betty: Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? .........to implement the New World Order. Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want as an example. I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human being! That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to "think" that his actions are "blessing Israel!" I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra'el , and say, You mountains of Yisra'el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people." What is chief of the "ancient high places" but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the "lips of the talkers?!" I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/1d0d73da/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Jan 11 02:14:25 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:14:25 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] puzzle pieces to the message In-Reply-To: <013c01c85413$35281430$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> References: <039001c853df$d2740390$643c66c9@bettygivin> <013c01c85413$35281430$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <200801110814.m0B8ELDP013152@mail114c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/251bc56e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 11 06:11:52 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:11:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom & quote Message-ID: <8CA226248B16810-C98-3316@FWM-M08.sysops.aol.com> Shabbat Shalom, ??? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah And say: 'Save us, O G-d of our salvation, and gather us together and deliver us from the nations, that we may give thanks to Your holy name, that we may triumph in Your praise.' Blessed be Hashem, the G-d of Israel, from everlasting even to everlasting. And all the people said: 'Amen,' and praised Hashem.? I Chron. 16: 35-36 ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/51f85f72/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 11 06:40:21 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:40:21 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Ani stam Yehudi, and TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM!!! In-Reply-To: <03dc01c853fb$852facd0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <8CA2266439E3684-C98-33B4@FWM-M08.sysops.aol.com> Dearest BETTY, ???? Oyyyyy....Please forgive me, I had just been in an all day management seminar (High Impact Strategies for the Experienced Manager) in the city, then writing up notes for this 8:00AM meeting in Brooklyn (yeah, this is SUPPOSED to be my day off).? I can't believe I did it AGAIN!!? Since I was on the Subway this morning at 5:10AM (now THAT is something you all have to experience..). ??? I will check it out, G-d willing after Shabbat.? Sorry..about the name....not good...?? :-(?? The good news though, is that during this 8 hour seminar, I made 6 pages of notes for projects I want to do for the UIWU, articles to research and write, and even more importantly - became inspired? about what I think I should present in April at the UIWU meeting!? AND still lead my group to beat the other three teams! ??? BETTY dear, please forgive - and maybe you'll allow me to give you some extra hugs in Charlotte - what do you say? ??? Love ya, ???????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 9:41 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Ani stam Yehudi, and TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM!!! Hanoch, this is Betty, but you can call me Becky.? ? Thanks for the correction?I am still in a learning process.? The ?joyous Israelis? I was referring to were the ones on the new TV show being aired in Jerusalem that I have posted several emails about. ?Their motto is to save Jerusalem and to be a light to the nations and they say that they are just Jews?Jews of all kinds?who have made aliyah and come together as Jews from Jerusalem to speak to the world. ? ?It is called TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM, ?The link is : http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one&id=2206 ? It is hosted by two IDF reservists who are good friends and who love Torah and want to promote the solidarity of Jerusalem. I am not sure whether they are members of the ?Orange Movement? or not, but they seem to have a similar agenda;? they definitely love Israel and are trying to save Jerusalem!? ? The two hosts also have a radio program called ?Light to the Nations.?? The show is sponsored by OHR OLAM (light of the world), The Center for Biblical Zionism?right down our alley!? ? I think you would love it?the teaching and dialogue, the sharing from the audience, the wonderful music and the Simcha (joy)!? I could see us right there amongst them!? ? This is so exciting!? I do hope that you and all will check it out!.? This may be my third email about it?as I am so excited.? Link is below. ? Baruch HaShem and Blessings to all, ? Betty/Elisheva ? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one&id=2206 ? ? ? ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:29 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ani stan Yehudi, and Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem! ? Hi Becky - ? ??? No, it's actually:??? "ani stam Yehudi"?? 'I am just a Jew'??? :-)? I don't know what you had been referring to regarding 'joyous' Israelis, but those with REAL spirit in Israel are those in, what's referred to as?the "Orange Movement."? Orange having been adopted during the struggle to try to save Gush Katif.? These are the people trying to prevent Jerusalem from being torn from our hands, those that settle Yehuda (Judea) & Shomron (Samaria). ? ??? Take care, ??? ??? Hanoch ? ??? They are among the best people that Israel has........ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/7464fbaf/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 09:27:13 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:27:13 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Ani stam Yehudi, and TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM!!! In-Reply-To: <03dc01c853fb$852facd0$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <03dc01c853fb$852facd0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801110727y651fb720pcc6c4280bb4fe40c@mail.gmail.com> I just watched the video. It is amazing! Israel is where we belong. Kim On Jan 10, 2008 8:41 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Hanoch, this is Betty, but you can call me Becky. > > > > Thanks for the correction?I am still in a learning process. The 'joyous > Israelis' I was referring to were the ones on the new TV show being aired in > Jerusalem that I have posted several emails about. Their motto is to save > Jerusalem and to be a light to the nations and they say that they are just > Jews?Jews of all kinds?who have made aliyah and come together as Jews from > Jerusalem to speak to the world. > > > > It is called TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM, The link is : > http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one&id=2206 > > > > It is hosted by two IDF reservists who are good friends and who love Torah > and want to promote the solidarity of Jerusalem. I am not sure whether they > are members of the "Orange Movement" or not, but they seem to have a similar > agenda; they definitely love Israel and are trying to save Jerusalem! > > > > The two hosts also have a radio program called "Light to the Nations." > The show is sponsored by OHR OLAM (light of the world), The Center for > Biblical Zionism?right down our alley! > > > > I think you would love it?the teaching and dialogue, the sharing from the > audience, the wonderful music and the Simcha (joy)! I could see us right > there amongst them! > > > > This is so exciting! I do hope that you and all will check it out!. This > may be my third email about it?as I am so excited. Link is below. > > > > Baruch HaShem and Blessings to all, > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one&id=2206 > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *YoungBarzel at aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:29 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Ani stan Yehudi, and Tuesday Night Live in > Jerusalem! > > > > Hi Becky - > > > > No, it's actually: "ani stam Yehudi" 'I am just a Jew' :-) I > don't know what you had been referring to regarding 'joyous' Israelis, but > those with REAL spirit in Israel are those in, what's referred to as the > "Orange Movement." Orange having been adopted during the struggle to try to > save Gush Katif. These are the people trying to prevent Jerusalem from > being torn from our hands, those that settle Yehuda (Judea) & Shomron > (Samaria). > > > > Take care, > > Hanoch > > > > They are among the best people that Israel has........ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/551611fb/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 09:38:39 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:38:39 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Ani stam Yehudi, and TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM!!! In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801110727y651fb720pcc6c4280bb4fe40c@mail.gmail.com> References: <03dc01c853fb$852facd0$643c66c9@bettygivin> <1c8dbb6e0801110727y651fb720pcc6c4280bb4fe40c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801110738w5a3cefe7gdd4369e38e6d14f2@mail.gmail.com> I found this link. It has photos from the first show, and a schedule for future shows. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124786 On Jan 11, 2008 9:27 AM, kim alvarado wrote: > I just watched the video. It is amazing! Israel is where we belong. > > Kim > > On Jan 10, 2008 8:41 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > > > Hanoch, this is Betty, but you can call me Becky. > > > > > > > > Thanks for the correction?I am still in a learning process. The 'joyous > > Israelis' I was referring to were the ones on the new TV show being aired in > > Jerusalem that I have posted several emails about. Their motto is to save > > Jerusalem and to be a light to the nations and they say that they are just > > Jews?Jews of all kinds?who have made aliyah and come together as Jews from > > Jerusalem to speak to the world. > > > > > > > > It is called TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM, The link is : http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one&id=2206 > > > > > > > > > > It is hosted by two IDF reservists who are good friends and who love > > Torah and want to promote the solidarity of Jerusalem. I am not sure whether > > they are members of the "Orange Movement" or not, but they seem to have a > > similar agenda; they definitely love Israel and are trying to save > > Jerusalem! > > > > > > > > The two hosts also have a radio program called "Light to the Nations." > > The show is sponsored by OHR OLAM (light of the world), The Center for > > Biblical Zionism?right down our alley! > > > > > > > > I think you would love it?the teaching and dialogue, the sharing from > > the audience, the wonderful music and the Simcha (joy)! I could see us > > right there amongst them! > > > > > > > > This is so exciting! I do hope that you and all will check it out!. > > This may be my third email about it?as I am so excited. Link is below. > > > > > > > > Baruch HaShem and Blessings to all, > > > > > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > > > > > http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one&id=2206 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of * YoungBarzel at aol.com > > *Sent:* Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:29 PM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Ani stan Yehudi, and Tuesday Night Live in > > Jerusalem! > > > > > > > > Hi Becky - > > > > > > > > No, it's actually: "ani stam Yehudi" 'I am just a Jew' :-) > > I don't know what you had been referring to regarding 'joyous' Israelis, but > > those with REAL spirit in Israel are those in, what's referred to as the > > "Orange Movement." Orange having been adopted during the struggle to try to > > save Gush Katif. These are the people trying to prevent Jerusalem from > > being torn from our hands, those that settle Yehuda (Judea) & Shomron > > (Samaria). > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > Hanoch > > > > > > > > They are among the best people that Israel has........ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/5aa2d3f4/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Jan 11 10:05:21 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:05:21 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue]KIM Ani stam Yehudi, and TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM!!!another LINK In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801110738w5a3cefe7gdd4369e38e6d14f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005e01c8546b$c4e142b0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Kim, this is wonderful! Thank-you for sending this link. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124786. I had not found it. It looks like they are going to have some great guests in the future. I knew you would love the show and would want to be in Israel! I talked to James about the show while he was preparing to leave on his trip. Since he will be there in Jerusalem on the 15th, I am going to send an email and make reservations for him and John Hully and hope they can attend. If not, their reservations won't be wasted as there will be plenty of people to take their place! Thanks again, Kim and early Shabbat Shalom to you and all, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:39 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ani stam Yehudi, and TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM!!! I found this link. It has photos from the first show, and a schedule for future shows. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124786 On Jan 11, 2008 9:27 AM, kim alvarado wrote: I just watched the video. It is amazing! Israel is where we belong. Kim On Jan 10, 2008 8:41 PM, Betty Givin < bkgivin at charter.net > wrote: Hanoch, this is Betty, but you can call me Becky. Thanks for the correction.I am still in a learning process. The 'joyous Israelis' I was referring to were the ones on the new TV show being aired in Jerusalem that I have posted several emails about. Their motto is to save Jerusalem and to be a light to the nations and they say that they are just Jews.Jews of all kinds.who have made aliyah and come together as Jews from Jerusalem to speak to the world. It is called TUESDAY NIGHT IN JERUSALEM, The link is : http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one &id=2206 It is hosted by two IDF reservists who are good friends and who love Torah and want to promote the solidarity of Jerusalem. I am not sure whether they are members of the "Orange Movement" or not, but they seem to have a similar agenda; they definitely love Israel and are trying to save Jerusalem! The two hosts also have a radio program called "Light to the Nations." The show is sponsored by OHR OLAM (light of the world), The Center for Biblical Zionism.right down our alley! I think you would love it.the teaching and dialogue, the sharing from the audience, the wonderful music and the Simcha (joy)! I could see us right there amongst them! This is so exciting! I do hope that you and all will check it out!. This may be my third email about it.as I am so excited. Link is below. Baruch HaShem and Blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one &id=2206 _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:29 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Ani stan Yehudi, and Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem! Hi Becky - No, it's actually: "ani stam Yehudi" 'I am just a Jew' :-) I don't know what you had been referring to regarding 'joyous' Israelis, but those with REAL spirit in Israel are those in, what's referred to as the "Orange Movement." Orange having been adopted during the struggle to try to save Gush Katif. These are the people trying to prevent Jerusalem from being torn from our hands, those that settle Yehuda (Judea) & Shomron (Samaria). Take care, Hanoch They are among the best people that Israel has........ _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/6cba97b1/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jan 11 10:23:33 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:23:33 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Loy's answer about the NWO Message-ID: Loy, I take great comfort in what you said about not worrying over the evil we see but can do nothing about. You said, "We are called just to endure to the end." You are so right about that. We are to follow God to the best of our ability, and then rest in the everlasting arms of Hashem. I was thinking about your words this morning, and then all of a sudden realized, that we CAN and ARE doing something about the evil we see! Our (The Tribes) "awakening" to who we are and where we fit in God's plan, according to all the prophets, IS tantamount to fighting evil! What we are doing in returning to the God of our Fathers, is the key to HaShem's Plan, and our following that Plan is our warfare against this evil. By Returning to the Ancient Path of our fathers, we are fighting evil at a level that will be devastating to the enemy. We have to keep our eyes on HaShem, and follow hard after Him with all our heart. It's amazing to see that we are actually developing the One Heart that Malachi says Elijah will accomplish "before the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (Mal 3:22-24) Our heart is right now being returned to our fathers' heart, just as Malachi said it would be! Abraham was the first to COME OUT OF BABYLON, and now we are following him, and fleeing the lies of Babylon ourselves. HaShem is uniting our heart with Father Abraham's, and with his son's, Isaac's, and with his son's, Jacob's. And finally, our heart is uniting with our brother, Judah, who like the faithful son in the parable of the Prodigal, stayed "home" with his Father. This is the TIME of our Restoration! Like Steve says, we need to fervently pray: "Restore us, O LORD, like the watercourses of the Negev," Ps 126:4. We ARE being restored, and therefore Warfare IS raining down on evil. Every Triber, whose eyes are opened to his sin of having forsaken the God of his fathers, is becoming a mighty warrior. May our troops grow and be strengthened, Pat From: loyb at prodigy.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing NeyanyahuDate: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:13:46 -0600 The N.W.O.is the overall plan of the "movers and shakers" of this world. The meeting Paul is speaking of is called the Bilderberger Meeting.....named after the "place" where the 1st meeting was held some yrs ago. They meet every 2 yrs to lay out what wars etc.etc. that they will bring about to accomplish their goals. It used to be limited to 1500 people but now many media people as well as wheeler/dealers of the world in the secular realm are included included Barbara Walters a couple of yrs ago when it was held in Sentra (a suburb of Lisbon), Portugal. I was told that you can Goggle and find the list of attendees. The meeting place is heavily guarded by the Defense Forces of the host country. One journalist (not invited) overheard the response of the defender to a would-be "party-crasher"....."You can climb over that fence to get in but you will never get out." I knew a woman who was the stewardess on Tom Hicks' (owner of the Dallas Maverick Hockey team ) private jet who told me they (she,Tom and Big Bush were flying to Lisbon, Portugal for a few days which happened to be at the same time as the above meeting. Later, when she returned and after learning where the meeting was to be held....at Sentra I asked her how she liked Sentra......and she responded that she loved it. ....not realizing that she never told me they were going to Sentra only to Lisbon. She is totally ignorant of what her boss is a part of. They then flew to Bohemian Grove (since 1880's a playground for the rulers of our country then, and now includes the member's of the CFR Council on foreign Relations, 45 minutes north of San Francisco) This is a very wicked, evil place to say the least!!! I asked what they do there.....? and she said that they take their own guns and hunt. " They flew from there to Canada to go "hunting" with the head of Canada, like the president" .... she named him but I don't remember his name. This was about 4 yrs ago. These are only a couple of the answers of confirmation I recv'd when asking HaShem to confirm some of the ...what I thought at the time ...outlandish things that I was reading about concerning what is really going on within the rulership of not only "our country" but of the whole world scene. Like I said earlier....once I understood the "over-all plan".....or saw the box-top of the puzzle.....then everything "crazy" that happens...suddenly comes into focus and makes perfect sense. We see many of the puzzle pieces for many years but nothing seems to fit....and then POW every thing begins to line up! It is written, "Be not ignorant of the devices of the devil". I don't "worry" myself with the evil of this world because HaShem will have the "last say"! We are called just to endure to the end! and with understanding comes peace. Shalom, leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul-Eugene Miller To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu New World Order, is total control of mankind by a few elite. Every year those 'in the know and power' meet to discuss their goals and tactics. They are frightenly fast becoming reality. Hang on tight, keep the faith, because there is a shaking coming, but....the blessed return of our Saviour Yahshua is imminent. Paulsherry cole wrote: What exactly is the New World Order that's being referred to? ( I have an idea, just putting it out there for discussion) Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu Interesting, Loy. I didn't vote for him (and tried to convince other not to do so), but over the years have softened a tiny bit toward him, though Condi Rice still leaves me completely cold! There is evil afoot here for sure. May HaShem protect Israel, and may we pray for the peace (wholeness) of Jerusalem. Pat From: loyb at prodigy.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing NeyanyahuDate: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:50:50 -0600 In my opinion Betty: Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? .........to implement the New World Order. Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want as an example. I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human being! That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PMTo: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org'Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to ?think? that his actions are ?blessing Israel!? I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra?el , and say, You mountains of Yisra?el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people?? What is chief of the ?ancient high places? but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the ?lips of the talkers?!? I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva _______________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Paul-Eugene MillerCell: 740.504.2612 From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/c7155d30/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jan 11 10:51:55 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:51:55 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Linda Ricciardi's answer to Hanoch's posting: MR. PRESIDENT..... Message-ID: Linda Ricciardi wrote a very moving response to Hanoch's posting: Mr. President, the world's fate is in your hands...." She is not on the Dialogue List, but I wanted everyone to be able to read her words. I asked her if I could forward her response to the ROF Dialogue. She said I could, and added some more thoughts to her previous ones. I am going to show both her responses below for you. What a mighty woman of God she is! Linda writes: What a powerful message! But appealing to GW or any man will do nothing unless Israel turns to HaShem and seeks Him with all of their hearts. Bush is calling for Olmert to be kept in office. He says he is a "great political power". Is this what we look to?!!..."Political" Power?? The people of Israel should be in the streets demanding the "return" to HaShem! If they spent half as much energy on seeking their Master as they do on the release of Jonathan Pollard, and I have nothing against him, but the survival of their nation, not to mention the survival of Jerusalem's spiritual purpose for the world..all at stake, all on the brink of innihilation. Prayer and fasting by the entire nation and all her love her is what should be on the plate. Bush said that the "Palestinians" are frustrated by the Israeli checkpoints. Is he aware of the children living in closets for fear of the next Kassam attack? He probably is. But he mentions the "Palestinians frustrations?!? Something is very wrong with this picture. The cry and appeal should be to HaShem, not man who's heart is hardened to acheive their own goals. The newspaper headlines should read," HaShem, HaShem, your people seek Your face and repent to follow your commandments. Save us and we shall be saved...your people and your Land. You are the King, Our King, and we praise you among the nations and rejoice before our Creator". The politically correct people have their eyes blinded and bring destruction upon themselves for their lying speeches about "peace". We all know what Ezekiel said, "They shall cry for peace, but there is no peace, except for the wicked". Only HaShem knows the evil Plan of man, but repentance is truly what He asks of His people...."If My people, who are called by MY Name, shall humble themselves and seek My Face, I will hear from heaven and heal their land." My heart is heavy and my tears for Israel are ever overflowing. Let us pray in one voice that HIS will be done in these crucial times in which we live, for Jerusalem, our home, and for ALL the earth and ALL of its inhabitants. Psalm 62..."May HaShem favor us and bless us, may He illuminate His countenance with us. To make known YOUR WAY on earth, among all nations, Your salvation. The peoples will acknowledge You, O G-d; the peoples will acknowledge You--ALL of them. Regimes will be glad and sing for joy, because YOU will judge the peoples fairly and guide with fairness the regimes on earth, Selah. The peoples will acknowledge YOU, O G-d; the peoples will acknowledge YOU, all of them. The earth will then have yeilded its produce; may HaShem our G-d bless us. May HaShem bless us and may ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH FEAR HIM! Amen and Hallelu -YAH Linda ps: Please keep in prayer the seven 9th and 10th grade girls who were arrested 16 days ago, north of Jerusalem, simply for refusing to identify themselves. They are not allowed to have contact with their parents, given no food or bathroom privileges for hours at a time . The girls said that "their modesty had been hurt" in jail. This is an unlawful arrest...more of the Israeli government's tyrrany and brutality....the "world without Torah". Restore us quickly HaShem! Then Linda further says: Dear Pat, Really!! It's time we see through spiritual eyes what is going on. ....Man dictating peace terms to Israel...an outrage!! And a government at that, which is seeking it's own destruction here in the good old USA, through its own devious plans for the North American Union by 2010!...the collapse of sovereign America. We need to become knowlegeable about this and also WHY AMERICA WILL NOT INVADE IRAN. These problems in Israel did not start with BUSH.....its a devious plan of centuries with the end being the expulsion of Jews from their heartland(already happening), the consequent separation of all Jews from their holiest sites(alreading happening) and the ultimate reduction of Judaism and its Creator to naught(already happening) for the purpose of.....?? Man who wants to be GOD...sound familiar? We had better start to see with open eyes. No man can save us..it's over.. our leaders are not our leaders...they lead for themselves and the strategies of their reprobate minds are bringing us down. We need to rely only on HaShem..change our thinking...widen the scope. Our prayer should be for the peoples of the world to repent, not for the leaders to change their ways. After repentence, all will come from HaShem...Amalek to meet his end(Numbers22:20) and the people of HaShem will be restored. I personally love Numbers 25:4 when HaShem said to Moses, "Take the leaders of the people. Hang them before HaShem against the sun--and the flaring wrath will withdraw from Israel.'' Certainly pass it on!! Love, Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/f20a7eb2/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Jan 11 11:12:50 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:12:50 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Linda Ricciardi's answer to Hanoch's posting: MR.PRESIDENT..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008701c85475$325b4c10$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thank-you Pat for sharing Linda's powerful words! I agree, Linda is a mighty woman of G-d! Her words need to be heeded. Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of patricia robbins Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:52 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Linda Ricciardi's answer to Hanoch's posting: MR.PRESIDENT..... Linda Ricciardi wrote a very moving response to Hanoch's posting: Mr. President, the world's fate is in your hands...." She is not on the Dialogue List, but I wanted everyone to be able to read her words. I asked her if I could forward her response to the ROF Dialogue. She said I could, and added some more thoughts to her previous ones. I am going to show both her responses below for you. What a mighty woman of God she is! Linda writes: What a powerful message! But appealing to GW or any man will do nothing unless Israel turns to HaShem and seeks Him with all of their hearts. Bush is calling for Olmert to be kept in office. He says he is a "great political power". Is this what we look to?!!..."Political" Power?? The people of Israel should be in the streets demanding the "return" to HaShem! If they spent half as much energy on seeking their Master as they do on the release of Jonathan Pollard, and I have nothing against him, but the survival of their nation, not to mention the survival of Jerusalem's spiritual purpose for the world..all at stake, all on the brink of innihilation. Prayer and fasting by the entire nation and all her love her is what should be on the plate. Bush said that the "Palestinians" are frustrated by the Israeli checkpoints. Is he aware of the children living in closets for fear of the next Kassam attack? He probably is. But he mentions the "Palestinians frustrations?!? Something is very wrong with this picture. The cry and appeal should be to HaShem, not man who's heart is hardened to acheive their own goals. The newspaper headlines should read," HaShem, HaShem, your people seek Your face and repent to follow your commandments. Save us and we shall be saved...your people and your Land. You are the King, Our King, and we praise you among the nations and rejoice before our Creator". The politically correct people have their eyes blinded and bring destruction upon themselves for their lying speeches about "peace". We all know what Ezekiel said, "They shall cry for peace, but there is no peace, except for the wicked". Only HaShem knows the evil Plan of man, but repentance is truly what He asks of His people...."If My people, who are called by MY Name, shall humble themselves and seek My Face, I will hear from heaven and heal their land." My heart is heavy and my tears for Israel are ever overflowing. Let us pray in one voice that HIS will be done in these crucial times in which we live, for Jerusalem, our home, and for ALL the earth and ALL of its inhabitants. Psalm 62..."May HaShem favor us and bless us, may He illuminate His countenance with us. To make known YOUR WAY on earth, among all nations, Your salvation. The peoples will acknowledge You, O G-d; the peoples will acknowledge You--ALL of them. Regimes will be glad and sing for joy, because YOU will judge the peoples fairly and guide with fairness the regimes on earth, Selah. The peoples will acknowledge YOU, O G-d; the peoples will acknowledge YOU, all of them. The earth will then have yeilded its produce; may HaShem our G-d bless us. May HaShem bless us and may ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH FEAR HIM! Amen and Hallelu -YAH Linda ps: Please keep in prayer the seven 9th and 10th grade girls who were arrested 16 days ago, north of Jerusalem, simply for refusing to identify themselves. They are not allowed to have contact with their parents, given no food or bathroom privileges for hours at a time . The girls said that "their modesty had been hurt" in jail. This is an unlawful arrest...more of the Israeli government's tyrrany and brutality....the "world without Torah". Restore us quickly HaShem! Then Linda further says: Dear Pat, Really!! It's time we see through spiritual eyes what is going on. ....Man dictating peace terms to Israel...an outrage!! And a government at that, which is seeking it's own destruction here in the good old USA, through its own devious plans for the North American Union by 2010!...the collapse of sovereign America. We need to become knowlegeable about this and also WHY AMERICA WILL NOT INVADE IRAN. These problems in Israel did not start with BUSH.....its a devious plan of centuries with the end being the expulsion of Jews from their heartland(already happening), the consequent separation of all Jews from their holiest sites(alreading happening) and the ultimate reduction of Judaism and its Creator to naught(already happening) for the purpose of.....?? Man who wants to be GOD...sound familiar? We had better start to see with open eyes. No man can save us..it's over.. our leaders are not our leaders...they lead for themselves and the strategies of their reprobate minds are bringing us down. We need to rely only on HaShem..change our thinking...widen the scope. Our prayer should be for the peoples of the world to repent, not for the leaders to change their ways. After repentence, all will come from HaShem...Amalek to meet his end(Numbers22:20) and the people of HaShem will be restored. I personally love Numbers 25:4 when HaShem said to Moses, "Take the leaders of the people. Hang them before HaShem against the sun--and the flaring wrath will withdraw from Israel.'' Certainly pass it on!! Love, Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/7b14b0e0/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Fri Jan 11 11:30:35 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:30:35 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Loy's answer about the NWO References: Message-ID: <002201c85477$ad0c6050$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAVE A BLESSED DAY !!! ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:23 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Loy's answer about the NWO Loy, I take great comfort in what you said about not worrying over the evil we see but can do nothing about. You said, "We are called just to endure to the end." You are so right about that. We are to follow God to the best of our ability, and then rest in the everlasting arms of Hashem. I was thinking about your words this morning, and then all of a sudden realized, that we CAN and ARE doing something about the evil we see! Our (The Tribes) "awakening" to who we are and where we fit in God's plan, according to all the prophets, IS tantamount to fighting evil! What we are doing in returning to the God of our Fathers, is the key to HaShem's Plan, and our following that Plan is our warfare against this evil. By Returning to the Ancient Path of our fathers, we are fighting evil at a level that will be devastating to the enemy. We have to keep our eyes on HaShem, and follow hard after Him with all our heart. It's amazing to see that we are actually developing the One Heart that Malachi says Elijah will accomplish "before the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (Mal 3:22-24) Our heart is right now being returned to our fathers' heart, just as Malachi said it would be! Abraham was the first to COME OUT OF BABYLON, and now we are following him, and fleeing the lies of Babylon ourselves. HaShem is uniting our heart with Father Abraham's, and with his son's, Isaac's, and with his son's, Jacob's. And finally, our heart is uniting with our brother, Judah, who like the faithful son in the parable of the Prodigal, stayed "home" with his Father. This is the TIME of our Restoration! Like Steve says, we need to fervently pray: "Restore us, O LORD, like the watercourses of the Negev," Ps 126:4. We ARE being restored, and therefore Warfare IS raining down on evil. Every Triber, whose eyes are opened to his sin of having forsaken the God of his fathers, is becoming a mighty warrior. May our troops grow and be strengthened, Pat ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: loyb at prodigy.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:13:46 -0600 The N.W.O.is the overall plan of the "movers and shakers" of this world. The meeting Paul is speaking of is called the Bilderberger Meeting.....named after the "place" where the 1st meeting was held some yrs ago. They meet every 2 yrs to lay out what wars etc.etc. that they will bring about to accomplish their goals. It used to be limited to 1500 people but now many media people as well as wheeler/dealers of the world in the secular realm are included included Barbara Walters a couple of yrs ago when it was held in Sentra (a suburb of Lisbon), Portugal. I was told that you can Goggle and find the list of attendees. The meeting place is heavily guarded by the Defense Forces of the host country. One journalist (not invited) overheard the response of the defender to a would-be "party-crasher"....."You can climb over that fence to get in but you will never get out." I knew a woman who was the stewardess on Tom Hicks' (owner of the Dallas Maverick Hockey team ) private jet who told me they (she,Tom and Big Bush were flying to Lisbon, Portugal for a few days which happened to be at the same time as the above meeting. Later, when she returned and after learning where the meeting was to be held....at Sentra I asked her how she liked Sentra......and she responded that she loved it. ....not realizing that she never told me they were going to Sentra only to Lisbon. She is totally ignorant of what her boss is a part of. They then flew to Bohemian Grove (since 1880's a playground for the rulers of our country then, and now includes the member's of the CFR Council on foreign Relations, 45 minutes north of San Francisco) This is a very wicked, evil place to say the least!!! I asked what they do there.....? and she said that they take their own guns and hunt. " They flew from there to Canada to go "hunting" with the head of Canada, like the president" .... she named him but I don't remember his name. This was about 4 yrs ago. These are only a couple of the answers of confirmation I recv'd when asking HaShem to confirm some of the ...what I thought at the time ...outlandish things that I was reading about concerning what is really going on within the rulership of not only "our country" but of the whole world scene. Like I said earlier....once I understood the "over-all plan".....or saw the box-top of the puzzle.....then everything "crazy" that happens...suddenly comes into focus and makes perfect sense. We see many of the puzzle pieces for many years but nothing seems to fit....and then POW every thing begins to line up! It is written, "Be not ignorant of the devices of the devil". I don't "worry" myself with the evil of this world because HaShem will have the "last say"! We are called just to endure to the end! and with understanding comes peace. Shalom, leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul-Eugene Miller To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu New World Order, is total control of mankind by a few elite. Every year those 'in the know and power' meet to discuss their goals and tactics. They are frightenly fast becoming reality. Hang on tight, keep the faith, because there is a shaking coming, but....the blessed return of our Saviour Yahshua is imminent. Paul sherry cole wrote: What exactly is the New World Order that's being referred to? ( I have an idea, just putting it out there for discussion) Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu Interesting, Loy. I didn't vote for him (and tried to convince other not to do so), but over the years have softened a tiny bit toward him, though Condi Rice still leaves me completely cold! There is evil afoot here for sure. May HaShem protect Israel, and may we pray for the peace (wholeness) of Jerusalem. Pat -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: loyb at prodigy.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:50:50 -0600 In my opinion Betty: Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? .........to implement the New World Order. Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want as an example. I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human being! That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to ?think? that his actions are ?blessing Israel!? I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra?el , and say, You mountains of Yisra?el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people?? What is chief of the ?ancient high places? but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the ?lips of the talkers?!? I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva ------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/2cba6541/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Jan 11 12:10:31 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:10:31 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE:Pat/ ONE Heart! In-Reply-To: <002201c85477$ad0c6050$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <00c401c8547d$40d47610$643c66c9@bettygivin> Pat, Loy, Steve and all, I agree, changing the thread. The One Heart that HaShem spoke of in Malachi is being developed not only in many of us (and those we do not know about here and world wide), and it is also being developed in Israel as so beautifully shown on the Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem TV show.Jews are returning from all 4 corners of the earth.they are praying and they are rejoicing and they are encouraging others to join them! It is really amazing is it not, that two IDF reservists who love Torah can get such a group together who are of ONE heart and broadcast LIVE to the world a message for all Jews to come home! Psalm 80 comes to mind as it invokes the "shepherd" of Israel, "that leadeth Yosef like a flock" the one who is "enthromed upon the keruvim," to "shine forth." And then pleas (before Ephraim and Mannaseh) to "stir up they might and save us." Save who??? Verse 9 talks about the vine that HaShem brought out of Mitzrayim (the "yonequet" or "tender twig" of Ezek 17:22) and planted, the one that so many seek to destroy and pleas in verse 15 for HaShem to 'be mindful of this vine" which His own right hand had planted. In this Psalm of Asaph, the plea is made three times, "RESTORE US, HASHEM AND CAUSE THY FACE TO SHINE!" (See verses 4, 8, 20) May we indeed all be restored and joined together in the Land! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Loy Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Loy's answer about the NWO Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAVE A BLESSED DAY !!! ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:23 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Loy's answer about the NWO Loy, I take great comfort in what you said about not worrying over the evil we see but can do nothing about. You said, "We are called just to endure to the end." You are so right about that. We are to follow God to the best of our ability, and then rest in the everlasting arms of Hashem. I was thinking about your words this morning, and then all of a sudden realized, that we CAN and ARE doing something about the evil we see! Our (The Tribes) "awakening" to who we are and where we fit in God's plan, according to all the prophets, IS tantamount to fighting evil! What we are doing in returning to the God of our Fathers, is the key to HaShem's Plan, and our following that Plan is our warfare against this evil. By Returning to the Ancient Path of our fathers, we are fighting evil at a level that will be devastating to the enemy. We have to keep our eyes on HaShem, and follow hard after Him with all our heart. It's amazing to see that we are actually developing the One Heart that Malachi says Elijah will accomplish "before the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (Mal 3:22-24) Our heart is right now being returned to our fathers' heart, just as Malachi said it would be! Abraham was the first to COME OUT OF BABYLON, and now we are following him, and fleeing the lies of Babylon ourselves. HaShem is uniting our heart with Father Abraham's, and with his son's, Isaac's, and with his son's, Jacob's. And finally, our heart is uniting with our brother, Judah, who like the faithful son in the parable of the Prodigal, stayed "home" with his Father. This is the TIME of our Restoration! Like Steve says, we need to fervently pray: "Restore us, O LORD, like the watercourses of the Negev," Ps 126:4. We ARE being restored, and therefore Warfare IS raining down on evil. Every Triber, whose eyes are opened to his sin of having forsaken the God of his fathers, is becoming a mighty warrior. May our troops grow and be strengthened, Pat _____ _______________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/6a3c48bc/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 11 12:10:36 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:10:36 EST Subject: [Dialogue] About Israel & Iran Message-ID: About Israel & Iran.. Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch An Insult to Intelligence The Israeli defense community responds to the NIE. Yossi Klein Halevi, The New Republic Published: Thursday, December 06, 2007 Since the early 1990s, when Israel first began preparing for a possible military strike against Iran's nuclear program, its security establishment has been divided not about the threat Iran posed--which was almost universally agreed upon to be grave--but about whether America and the international community would have the will to stop Tehran. Optimists noted the near-total Western acceptance of the Israeli intelligence assessment that the goal of the Iranian nuclear program was a bomb. In the last year, they have also pointed to the growing strength of the American-led sanctions effort, along with repeated warnings by American, French, and British leaders about a possible military strike if sanctions failed. The pessimists, for their part, insisted that the sanctions were too little too late, that America was in the grip of a new Vietnam-like trauma in Iraq, and that the mullahs' will to attain the bomb was stronger than the West's resolve to stop them. Now, with the release of the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iran, the argument apparently has been resolved. If sanctions fail to stop Iran from achieving the potential to produce nuclear weapons, the dirty work will be left to Israel, just as it was left to Israel to stop Saddam Hussein from going nuclear. America, even under George Bush, is hardly likely to go to war to stop a program many Americans now believe doesn't exist. Until now, pessimists here could console themselves that a last-resort Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear facilities would likely draw wide international sympathy and even gratitude--very different from the near-total condemnation that greeted Israel's attack on Saddam's reactor in 1981. Now, though, the NIE will ensure that if Israel does attack, it will be widely branded a warmonger, and faulted for the inevitable fallout of rising oil prices and increased terror. The sense of betrayal within the Israeli security system is deep. After all, Israel's great achievement in its struggle against Iran was in convincing the international community that the nuclear threat was real; now that victory has been undone--not by Russia or the European Union, but by Israel's closest ally. What makes Israeli security officials especially furious is that the report casts doubt on Iranian determination to attain nuclear weapons. There is a sense of incredulity here: Do we really need to argue the urgency of the threat all over again? The Israeli strategists I heard from ridicule the report's contention that "Tehran's decisions are guided by a cost-benefit approach rather than a rush to a weapon irrespective of the political, economic, and military costs." Is it, asks one Israeli analyst sarcastically, a cost-benefit approach for one of the world's largest oil exporters to risk international sanctions and economic ruin for the sake of a peaceful nuclear program? No one with whom I've spoken believes that professional considerations, such as new intelligence, were decisive in changing the American assessment on Iran. What has been widely hailed in the American media as an expression of intelligence sobriety, even courage, is seen in the Israeli strategic community as precisely the opposite: an expression of political machination and cowardice. "The Americans often accuse us of tailoring our intelligence to suit our political needs," notes a former top security official. "But isn't this report a case study of doing precisely that?" Adds a key security analyst: "The report didn't surprise me. The [American intelligence] system isn't healthy. It has been thoroughly politicized. I saw it when I brought hard evidence to them through the 1990s about how the Palestinian Authority was violating its commitments. Their responses weren't professional but political. This report only deepens the crisis of confidence we feel." The debate over the report within the Israeli security network is whether the motive of its sponsors was ideological or opportunistic. Was the NIE a back-handed way of implementing the Baker-Hamilton report, which called for engagement with Iran? Or, more simply, was the NIE motivated by fear among intelligence analysts not to be caught exaggerating another WMD crisis? Ironically, an Israeli reading of the report only confirms the anxiety here, felt across the political spectrum, about Iranian intentions and capabilities. Responding to the NIE, the left-wing newspaper, Haaretz, sounds like a neo-con organ: "While Iran continues threatening to annihilate Israel, what American intelligence thinks about Iran's nuclear capability is irrelevant.... The report establishes that if Iran wants to produce a bomb it can do so, and if it doesn't want to, it won't. This evaluation may have a restraining effect in internal American politics. But in Israeli politics it should cause the opposite reaction." After all, the NIE affirms not only that attaining nuclear weapons remains a central goal within the Iranian leadership, but also that, by continuing to enrich uranium, Iran has maintained efforts to make that goal achievable. For Israeli security analysts, the suspension in 2003 of Iran's covert nuclear military program--the NIE's defining issue--is hardly pivotal. Partly that's because the working assumption in Israeli intelligence is that the Iranians have resumed their covert military program. "The Syrians were working on their nuclear project for seven years, and we discovered it only recently," says one security analyst. "The Americans didn't know about it all. So how can they be so sure about Iran?" The more compelling reason, though, for minimizing the significance of a suspension of the covert military program is that the program itself is of secondary importance at this stage in the development of an Iranian bomb. The Iranians have continued to vigorously pursue two other programs--uranium enrichment and missile delivery systems--whose success would ensure them relatively quick access to military capability, even without a weapons program already in place. Says Shabtai Shavit, former head of the Mossad: "My assessment is that, after they decided to aim for nuclear weapons, they advanced on three parallel tracks: enriching uranium, creating components for a bomb, and developing missiles. The missiles are ready for operation. As for enrichment, they have encountered all kinds of problems, like exploding centrifuges. I estimate that they made great progress, and very quickly, on the military track. Since they have problems with the uranium enrichment track, they can allow themselves to delay the military track, and wait for progress with uranium." Given that world attention has been focused on the military track, a tactical Iranian concession made sense. Shavit notes that the problem with the NIE isn't in its facts but its deliberate ambiguity. "The whole report is filled with assessments of 'high probability,' 'middle probability,' 'low probability.' I don't need that." And if he had written the report? "I would have based my assessment on the facts and said unequivocally that Iran is going to create the ability to make a bomb." Nor do senior analysts here take seriously the NIE's vague assessments of when Iran will reach the point of no return: beginning in 2010, it says, though not likely until 2013 or even 2015. Israel's point of no return is when Iran attains the potential to produce sufficient fissile material for making a bomb. And they believe that is likely to happen--barring continued mishaps, accidental or not, in the Iranian nuclear program, like exploding centrifuges--somewhere within the next two years. Once the material is available, the final step toward constructing a bomb is the least complicated part of the process. "Making bombs is a much shorter process than uranium enrichment," explains Ephraim Asculai, a senior research fellow at the Institute for National Security Studies and a 40-year veteran of the Israel Atomic Energy Commission. "Today the Iranians are enriching uranium at four percent; to make a bomb, you need 90 percent. From there, the transition doesn't require a lot of time. Most of the work has been done to get to the four percent. It is a matter of months, not years." That sense of urgency is evident in the highest ranks of the Israeli military. A recent letter circulated by Eliezer Shkedi, commander of the Israeli Air Force, to his officers offered a textual comparison between quotes from Hitler threatening Europe's Jews in the 1930s with quotes from Iranian President Ahmadinejad threatening Israel today. An accompanying letter, signed by an officer identified only as "responsible for the Iranian arena," noted laconically, "We can rely only on ourselves." With the release of the NIE, that old Israeli sentiment has become far more acute. Yossi Klein Halevi is a contributing editor of The New Republic and a senior fellow at the Shalem Center in Jerusalem. **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/f7e04a1c/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Jan 11 13:12:31 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:12:31 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue]Steve/ puzzle pieces to the message In-Reply-To: <200801110814.m0B8ELDP013152@mail114c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <00db01c85485$ea2cfea0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Steve, it seems to me that several things are occurring in this very day which are part of the "puzzle pieces" of the message. I am not sure whether or not you would classify them as "Synchoronous events (SE's) or not, but they seem very strong to me. I was not familiar with many of the things that Loy or Linda mentioned and am still not sure what it is all about, but I do know that Amalek continually has his hand against the throne in an attempt to reign evil on G-d's people; and it does seem that it is time for all to wake up and listen and open our eyes to see what HaShem may be trying to teach us in our day.to love Him and to seek Him with all our hearts and to return to Him. It seems that we are being aroused out of our sleep, not only literally, but metaphorically. I don't think it is by accident that President Bush made this trip to Israel at the same time that this broadcast, Tuesday Night in Jerusalem was inaugurated, for while our president is there talking with Olmert and trying to make concessions to the Palestinians, here is this live TV show from Jerusalem. It is sponsored by Ohr Olam (The Light of the World), which is what Jerusalem has been called and is to be proclaiming. And it is happening. Here are two IDF reservists proclaiming their love for HaShem and Torah and "their extended family" all over the world broadcasting the message for all Jews around the world to heed the call to come home! While I was watching the cameras pan around the room to all the faces in the audience, I could almost picture us there among them, in solidarity with them. And If you took at look at the link to Arutz7, you saw people standing arm in arm around Jerusalem's walls to make a strong "stand" for Israeli solidarity and to keep Jerusalem from being divided! I first found this link when Pat sent the email about Bush Snubbing Netanyu. I think it was on Tuesday evening, which was the first of Shevat. I spent hours on that website as there is so much, and then I remembered the New Moon Prayer that is so appropriate right now, so I sent it out even though it was late. James is there now, and who knows what could come out of the conference in which he is participating? I sent in a request for a reservation for him and a guest (maybe John Hully) to be a part of the live audience on the next broadcast of the show. Hopefully, he will be able to attend. I could be wrong, but I have such a good feeling about this. Could this be the inauguration of something happening? I want to read about the month of Shevat. Blessings and Shabbat Shalom, Betty/Elisheva P.S. I wrote this on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2008 I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra'el , and say, You mountains of Yisra'el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people." What is chief of the "ancient high places" but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the "lips of the talkers?!" I wonder who that could be????!!!!! I had been looking up the Dry Bones prophecy and my eyes just "fell" on this passage.too appropriate of a verse to have been an accident! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 2:14 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] puzzle pieces to the message Loy and All, Am changing the thread to underscore the concept Loy expresses below in maroon italics below. My dream / wish for some time now was the PRs, "Synchoronous events, (SEs), dreams or other "puzzle pieces of the message" that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is telling us be collected so that we can see an emerging patterns that is self-verifying and confirming of its authenticity and veracity by being given to many people about the same subject. This way we will be clued in to what God is telling us about our times and what we need to do in it. Everyone, please continue to thank and ask God to "restore our fortunes like streams in the negev." (Psalm 126:4). This could very well be a hint that the restoration that we need to experience will be through the leading and agency of the Spirit, likened unto waters being poured on us. There are great signs among us that this beginning to happen. Shabbat Shalom, Steve At 09:31 PM 1/10/2008, you wrote: Betty, These joyous people sound like they are Chabad....Jews. a certain sect. I like them too. Wish they were in my area I would probably join them. I did not set out to make a study of these things but about 6 or 7 yrs ago ,for about 3 years HaShem just seemed to bring to me books, videos, tapes,movies, people etc who all had the same message or more puzzle pieces to the message . That is how I know what I know. BUT I don't just randomly accept what I read or hear.....but then He would confirm these things thru first and second hand information & people who had experienced and known to be true..... "to boot." I certainly don't like what I know but only time will tell...but like Paul said earlier "They are frightenly fast becoming reality." Refere to my reply to Paul for more. We can't all know it all. Shalom, Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 5:23 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Comments on Bush Visit & Joy filled Jerusalem Live TVshow! Loy, I always respect the opinions of others, but I am not sure that I agree. Maybe it is just that I am not that astute, but I have not noticed that President Bush goes from one personality to another, just that he sometimes stumbles on his words. As I said earlier, I do believe that he is a man who loves G-d, but it seems that he has been put into a difficult position and has been swayed by political pressure as have so many of our politicians .I just pray that he will listen to what Netanyahu and over 50% of the Israeli people are saying and that he may turn from his course of action that seems bent of dividing Jerusalem, and do the right thing. Have you checked out the video Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem yet? That is by far the most exciting video I have seen in a long time. The hosts, the performers and the audience are "on fire" for the message of the solidarity of the Jewish State and are calling for all Jews everywhere to make aliyah, to come home and not delay! I have seen this fervor and spirit among the Chassidic Jews, but not the everyday Jews.I refer to them this way because that is what they seemed to be.there was no mention of putting people in categories.just that they were all Jews, loved their country, and believed that Jerusalem should never be divided! If I had not known that they were Jews, I would have thought it was a group of charismatic Christians with all the hand clapping, lively music and joy being shared. Many had left profitable jobs in the U.S. or other countries of origin, but had left it all and made aliyah and shared with the group their reasons. I think Hanoch said it well, "Anis tan Yehudi," I am just a Jew..that was the theme. Having lived there, Loy, and made aliyah, I am sure that you would relate.and Pat too, and of course Hanoch. Never having been, I was just overwhelmed by their Simcha (joy) and their fervor and fighting back tears of joy myself.I could picture us all there in that crowd and fitting in completely!!! Love & Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Loy Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 12:51 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu In my opinion Betty: Geo. W., as his father's ( who was the first to publicly begin to push the New World Order) son is a pitiful mind controlled puppet and is only able to do what he has been programmed to do.....doesn't matter what he....the real man believes. I know this to be a fact....that he has been trauma-based mind controlled. Sometimes when he is speaking...or "trying to speak" you can see him go from one personality to another depending on his cues. Once I understood all of this his seemingly crazy/non-sensical actions/words began to make "perfect sense". It is his mission according to the powers that be, to do exactly what he is doing....selling both Israel and the US down the river WHY??? .........to implement the New World Order. Note, what he "does".... not what he "SAYS" re: EVERYTHING with the I-35 corridor and the Mexican/border problems, irrelevant of what the people want as an example. I feel a great compassion for him due to his position.....in the grand scheme of things. He really just cannot help himself. May HaShem have great mercy on our President. My heart really goes out to him as a human being! That is just my take on poor Pres. Bush the man I voted for. We don't really have choice anymore. Republicans and Democrates are all the same. Blessings, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] RE: EZEK 36 & Bush Snubbing Neyanyahu From: Betty Givin [ mailto:bkgivin at charter.net ] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:45 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A7News: Bush Snubs Netanyahu on Israel Visit Pat and friends, this is so very sad. President Bush needs to come to his senses! From what I understand he knows the Bible and knows that G-d will bless those who bless Israel. Surely he cannot lay his head on his pillow at night and be deluded enough to "think" that his actions are "blessing Israel!" I came across a verse today that blew me away in its timeliness for what is occurring this very day as President Bush is visiting Jerusalem!!! It is from Ezekiel 36. The whole chapter is amazing, verses 1-5 are encompassed in white spaces. I am only going to quote the first few. You can take a look for yourself! Ezekiel 36:1 ff And thou, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Yisra'el , and say, You mountains of Yisra'el hear the word of HaShem; thus says HaShem; Because the enemy has said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession, therefore prophesy and say, Thus says HaShem, Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that you might be a possession to the rest of the nations, and you are taken up in the lips of the talkers, and are become the gossip of the people." What is chief of the "ancient high places" but Jerusalem?! Israel is presently being swallowed up on all sides, with the east and west border having already been turned over the Palestinians! And the "lips of the talkers?!" I wonder who that could be????!!!!! How profound is this and how sad! We had best gear up our prayers! Praying for the Peace of Yerushaylim, Betty/Elisheva _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/be348dcf/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 11 13:13:41 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:13:41 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A resource and Shabbat Shalom Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Baruch HaShem (thank G-d) there are Jews in Israel who are fighting OUR fight, and turning to HaShem. Below is one of the best examples - Manhigut Yehudit. I have pasted their latest email below. Please check their links when you get a chance. They also have a unique way to participate in Tu B'Shevat (the holiday of trees). May you and your families be blessed with a Shabbat filled with love, rejuvenation, relaxation and more time to connect with HaShem. Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1GHpPCAaAijCqtXB8HTWLm9PMfYeC_dVsX3CaIxdfXrWYdqSXavj-CI_hM_45UkRhX2uGJmVIcvJX79Na0XNpTJqwikRFegGEIdGnu_DZbAg= =) Authentic Leadership _ Moshe Feiglin Your Candidate for Prime Minister of Israel _ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1GHpPCAaAijCqtXB8HTWLm9PMfYeC_dVsX3CaIxdfXrWYdqSXavj-CI_hM_45UkRhX2uGJmVIcvJX79Na0XNpTJqwikRFegGEIdGnu_DZbAg==) _Learn more_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1GHpPCAaAijCqtXB8HTWLm9PMfYeC_dVsX3CaIxdfXrWYdqSXavj-CI_hM_45UkRhX2uGJmVIcvJX79Na0XNpTJqwikRFegGEIdGnu_DZbAg= =) Support Us: _Support us by becoming a Manhigut Yehudit International Member_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1Tz1r3wjbgRhqczBMd_oV5sd6G6GN282YKvzm1vwNG3Ww8OIot8odMHbQ9twiBbwU7_JB84M6OJ48xG3hpOBu60wQ2TWBPdL J8UKwChQHFZ_6N_6gV284PhCnuL0RSuDA=) Joining Manhigut Yehudit is much more than just a donation. Now you're part of the team! Subscribe: Keep Up-To-Date _Subscribe to Our Weekly Email Newsletter_ (http://ui.constantcontact.com/d.jsp?m=1101491163077&p=oi) Contact Us: _Shmuel Sackett_ (mailto:shmuel at manhigut.org) , Manhigut Yehudit, International Director _Dovid Shirel_ (mailto:shir at manhigut.org) , Manhigut Yehudit, Director English Department Comments: Your Feedback is Important to Us _Send Us Your Comments_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc3yStuWZWXcfUsKWKPtOSJCj68igZBTcQa-8VmdGPzO2EG4mTg_4QVz6OgULeJZ4wfC3lkR7tnmxjMSP-53vzyKnVR_-RZJ OVvNxS8p32bc-CDXJWuqQjwU) Moving Forward! _ Manhigut Yehudit The Jewish Leadership _ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1GHpPCAaAijCqtXB8HTWLm9PMfYeC_dVsX3CaIxdfXrWYdqSXavj-CI_hM_45UkRhX2uGJmVIcvJX79Na0XNpTJqwikRFe gGEIdGnu_DZbAg==) Movement: Diagnoses the Crisis Identifies the Goal Formulates the Plan Is moving Forward _Learn more_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1GHpPCAaAijCqtXB8HTWLm9PMfYeC_dVsX3CaIxdfXrWYdqSXavj-CI_hM_45UkRhX2uGJmVIcvJX79Na0XNpTJqwikRFegGEIdGnu_DZ bAg==) English Speakers in Israel _ Let's return the State of Israel to the Jewish People We Made Aliyah to Make a Difference _ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1GHpPCAaAijCqtXB8HTWLm9PMfYeC_dVsX3CaIxdfXrWYdqSXavj-CI_hM_45UkRhX2uGJmVIcvJX79Na0XNpTJqwikRFegGEIdGnu_DZbAg==) Not to stand by while Israel loses its Jewish identity Join Manhigut Yehudit English speakers in Israel, Olim new and old, to make a change Together we can channel our idealistic energy to revolutionize Israeli society Visit Our Website: _Learn more about Jewish Leadership _ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001uuNoSWGtGOtvUiAkXYjjM02zFJv_zaoxw24AmmKJBDfxqWeJMzf_z3y9kv-kS70fWJop1tmM9VDHnxpZAVUKdR1eiH1QPgtNmhUNEGAD0ug=) at: _The Jewish Leadership Website _ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1GHpPCAaAijCqtXB8HTWLm9PMfYeC_dVsX3CaIxdfXrWYdqSXavj-CI_hM_45UkRhX2uGJmVIcvJX79Na0XNpTJqwikRFegGEIdGnu_DZbAg==) (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001uuNoSWGtGOtvUiAkXYjjM02zFJv_zaoxw24AmmKJBDfxqWeJMzf_z3y9kv-kS70fWJop1tmM9VDHnxpZAVUKdR1eiH1QPgtNA65t33mDHV27EESekqkmlPw3l-r14UH AMu7zArdFn0c=) _Homepage_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1GHpPCAaAijCqtXB8HTWLm9PMfYeC_dVsX3CaIxdfXrWYdqSXavj-CI_hM_45UkRhX2uGJmVIcvJX79Na0XNpTJqwikR FegGEIdGnu_DZbAg==) _Who Are We?_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1CaWDmCNMAg_Ea3MU6ehot1fZm3uYofUlfaPOZSkiYZzsSlKwySvg18f-8_fRBv_GWOdCpZdwm3qU_bswIfts6vavyMCsM8UXm2QQt3x xGlpIbc7UwnCHz69IfdGT9R3wommxLJ3S31SH96Ca79Ek3) _Meet Our Leaders_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc34vactGzdwurqD7aBEsUZNDePvT2KNTkTBRpo0hbvOiIfr5O_2StOMIfrpJ4dZxlgJej3GKLVqvfkDPfO_eqr9qJcc9uN3IISH_ o85Wy67hu_KztGj1GbsST4Z8r5qo72vO81rCbiCbTi8aTXSUQMB) _Our Policies_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc0-vcfuIDX4OfG9drdrX84SROmn7RHdNwvKxv8vltNkjjvuSw07aq0ldMJGz_CCWXdWv_EPN2s9N3-b9nQSDlquEaGgWFCAfWOt8wRlw ZLyTOo20BxquPMKibePcS3nHfEgBKdHkQfq0w==) _100 Days in Office_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc27lTwoo8lva_s69YszC-2q3pKREHWejExXZ6VY1Lul087cJEEQmL10_calohuMNfY4Yng8C11-7jZ_cG3bXzGWGROFQRyfMAG pE78Mrm8zQR8ObtVoWR_p1yf7EfTzkd9lJLmSZITQjQ==) _Manhigut In Action_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc0rHzRx2MbxUrtpDSPwST8aQwHYqZx7picDqZAa2DblU7fr4y0x6CuYgcpjnN5yZ927BrHFRnrPHtOwIACMOFQwQZ23uSWQpbN cJY7NLY98SdySEIP_yVbH1NckoUVo9FQv8uqCo-hKfQ==) _Jewish State Guidelines_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1jyqRFMQWQmRPkO0MYSKnBKgUYf3kUbSsvVWEbl_J296Z2_Ubarr-VcPTKoazkJ52RmjJM6_EY2Gu8yHeQ3_JaTj3NVb a6WSHCy3CiH4GvBCUkmyLN8gXUCFVFX7w1OOCfYJCjGeZgGA==) _Jewish Economics_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1DSxJGbnGsuWTPLZ6bATWANQQ7VCr2UUss3ckW3kvg83EpYXSH55kFu2fCRuP4OhBqP7gzW9rh4Ey0sDj58L58fBcgXgzvXIUHK YsZQTAPKigvvdhTeqlYeWMu1Fiw2KoKPMuodJ5X6WQoLNyEd3h6HeajhjynJBfYQVbFH2cVzjRp-A5 WkCRE) _Jewish Education_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1id44I7ieCZPsSEFJ8gA3Wu-Ek0vBKfcK7AD7exzV1s2hEWP6TzMibrHuwmpvAojQE9KigMJV4m5bWOMbJRIBeewJS4Y67Diwlb aFCXJJKm4LrDafc6G91B0i9Y_9Ti1lOPUT3BiwWMEo9R0MBbzRkOhCXNzIwrwsyXxXRiAA1bQ==) _Jewish Justice_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc2R3Jnisx7dGE0RsypGBDHxydyIaEElMGJfCHP6nk55QFGltWLe8G6J7jNDM0aNzvF147OFToPVe_9DDPKLg-X5nI7HD5c6XcAOjhl SnfNDQNB7D8Se33JYB9QNJB13FGLHtaKmpBLGbI-pTo3cTb9h_F-RbnQf72o-us9ux7aIgdCt4q-uu mt0) _Jewish Society_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc2bYW5ggTOcmUreW4VmgNeWxhKGxLzzNj0MCm281_GnBoYpTSTvxODpQ3SdbRDadyssqardBMR86jZEu3evIxjQd2UOqqinRZz4TmN fjMWBIR4vtguKpG7kcUzFRKZ9y1hVeTnw2qDz5_0Wl_vu2hamnvsZJpZylTFfvwDpTYACKg==) _Jewish Statecraft_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1GJlZfkKXNb4vL04_G7EhzioS6i-aag_zThtPkIfO3oqjZ1EqAefJyQiocqRNUlaXMOu2sACJqB4tVQMu2NqP5HYFj-RSaPU3I 1fk7V41hPdXag80Yna4cYsQVY5ALNiE5XyNjweeRdXgoq8s8AGiY) _Jewish Leadership_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc10ePAHz2vTbmSfNENh373nKIySz7XhhpKk8gaBeDhhbU6FTJbhe6N8PZRJMMUQ6K3p10K6oMhSu-ZFb8Mju4TywmKmX7wKZYAR c9t7CqL71ZCVlPmFACQTSu8bZxuWeoz9dLWrmOSsesxUhnNflwN3vxMO-hN3e98=) _Jewish State and Religion_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc0g_5dPmkN2TBhvKHxngqvLDewjY8omqkl8LXxGb_fX0ZT_K1QTduZa00lT65pLrX1h2JQ0nYY1O03K3MpF3QofnpLV y2Nb9_MUQl5qu_ZlvgV_gHNyAdhbaMPQDN4uS3E5S35A8F9vpXmfQkEd1rBLJbVy-OBGQn2cUgqe8u KpmA==) _Jewish State and Security_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc0mI1syhvjuznf2aF_PNFlmePO TyTCsxtaStKtc_rWYx5mbQyiCjPHAecDG4YJWARFQxkuduW5kwlCgnEv9wkGA8O6WynqpHZa4z6BPTn1H5CodFatoGjxFUH9AxETJwSuWJhRQtWXbYwJv0UwaEBoLSSnJivL0rwM=) _Aliyah: Return to Israel_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1kjSRQVYuvEpN2AcFjnUMh4ePSdlr4vsPwkbt4dLb6KnL_W2VIy5bZBcwv9MNfUsy21RfUFMPuj3A-PUYGJ3HDfWtkI _wU-TwlJ8UMtl4SEj__J42AbRKk20bLOSZzt0iA-DQIhHFQnp4moQcDHyh9) _Israel and the Nations_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc1CaWDmCNMAg9sVMlmz5IBIMH2Qo39Qxgp-B6fmsmSe0AIdgTsXrlYbisyjYsj8q7JMeSKJ3VOTtXu-MCFOLXxDxdHzLS- RM16zW41c7v7Roto0SRXzudIQGbx4RleMjqKlcyAwZ0iWiM_-gJ1x99CRW22mdC9PzXw7Rz9SwRcwj Q==) _Articles by Moshe Feiglin_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc02ArMl2Qwmvf5iHfLNkRquTOCvimh7sJE8VmS6oiMH3akuwh6owSb7Hk-VY7IqEaq-TOEY_BV5R_gK3JzBeXx6BKbm LqNRGuIAYn4v1EuDsdr-3TB9dl_2AZgrCD2YUDaig_4huHLIyuZvHFaXwCq2) _Articles by Shmuel Sackett_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc0sUt52XpqyhfPuLdRIf1fmbZx0TOXk5ucSiOGwHEv3u0S2on6J5Bql_AtqwTF2pFdQYO2uz_ZHnKD-qt6AdGcz0hG 2lO2GZxU752IPdyAsLmobNkz8W1O1BSTOiTYXd5SPOqNjrXO_r8IMwy67rLKi) _Picture Album_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc0-vcfuIDX4OT3r9AaIpTqsPRr76BRpJiJ8Sr3YKp9vVoI44rSbmZ3gpwwxJ9bouNaGmAQW9RCNzJJX-Dw-3f2FGAbppPNQXLXEpoFo yv8oANk6L_NDdAw-U4xUzadOniTQkIbmf9XfPA==) _Torah Teachings_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc2xPY5s2dw5k3BhNOGZtP1cbU-AWsP9obXlw-AEYTCvZgVDVgbI974CIJDJMyQObgpLvkPCBLCYMO8Dh_thK9eHNzDbtJAQAquj-x Vdp9kFLCFG-SEpmrPUoDPrlb6YSw9QN9bbTOm73w==) _BLOG IN & Voice Your Opinion_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc27lTwoo8lva_fHXcAKaWWdXEn8zY_sbZVQlZECTUYnZxOOLgzWGdu-_HNwM1djf3l1q1dYdq49Ta72_FP4ee33Q A3x_5LbL3Yl8kLgoBbGH2252IsQa4Fm_iSiJ0CJ5Xo=) Tu B'Shvat (Jan 22) The holiday of planting new fruit trees in Israel, is coming! But this year is "Shmittah" (Sabbatical year) in Israel. According to the Torah, all tree plantings are strictly forbidden. So what's going to happen this year on Tu B'Shevat??? We Have the Solution!!! This Tu B'Shvat you can continue to support and strengthen the Land of Israel! In keeping 100% within the strict guidelines of Halacha (Jewish law) - we have set up a unique way to "plant" trees this Tu B'Shvat. Please read, get involved and pass this email to your friends. Tu B'Shvat is coming VERY soon! 1) In keeping with the custom of Tu B'Shvat: _Order and pay for your new fruit trees now._ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc12sdVEapZpt-JMn7PxvIIguk18BNYbWPtM94p_tZzMaGOTXLhwdS52Aqx2ynX668wLtx9KZfAR_I4LbvimaarptS_ke9T0qK5UkaCmjGQ 38o7a-LoPHVokmHE39T7hZN0=) (Before Jan. 22) 2) All money that is collected will be given NOW to Israeli farmers who live in Yehuda and Shomron (Judea and Samaria) and who keep the Shmittah laws. This money will be a great help to them since they are not engaged in any form of commerce this entire year. (Imagine if you had no salary for a whole year!!!) 3) The actual new fruit trees will be planted after Rosh Hashanah (Oct 2nd) - when it is permissible to do so. All orders received now will be FIRST IN LINE to be planted when the Shmittah ends. 4) A personalized, full-color certificate will be mailed to you listing the date - after Rosh Hashanah - when your trees will be planted. This certificate will be mailed to you NOW. In summary: Order & pay for the trees now, have them placed on "reserve", get the money to the farmers now (who desperately need it), plant after Rosh Hashanah and get a beautiful personalized certificate suitable for framing! In this unique way you have: ? kept the Mitzvah of Tu B'Shvat ? planted new fruit trees in Israel ? and have a share with your brothers in the special Mitzvah of Shmittah. _CLICK HERE _ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EVxu7E0Tmc12sdVEapZpt-JMn7PxvIIguk18BNYbWPtM94p_tZzMaGOTXLhwdS52Aqx2ynX668wLtx9KZfAR_I4LbvimaarptS_ke9T0qK5UkaCmjG Q38o7a-LoPHVokmHE39T7hZN0=) to participate in this unique program. Hurry, all orders must be received by Tu B'Shevat (Jan 22). This entire program has been organized, directed and sponsored by: Moshe Feiglin and Shmuel Sackett, Founders of Manhigut Yehudit and Zo Artzeinu. **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/5a6efdc9/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Jan 11 13:16:16 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:16:16 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] About Israel & Iran In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00f201c85486$7376b750$643c66c9@bettygivin> Very sobering, Hanoch! Thank-you. Shabbat shalom, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:11 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] About Israel & Iran About Israel & Iran.. Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch An Insult to Intelligence The Israeli defense community responds to the NIE. Yossi Klein Halevi, The New Republic Published: Thursday, December 06, 2007 Since the early 1990s, when Israel first began preparing for a possible military strike against Iran's nuclear program, its security establishment has been divided not about the threat Iran posed--which was almost universally agreed upon to be grave--but about whether America and the international community would have the will to stop Tehran. Optimists noted the near-total Western acceptance of the Israeli intelligence assessment that the goal of the Iranian nuclear program was a bomb. In the last year, they have also pointed to the growing strength of the American-led sanctions effort, along with repeated warnings by American, French, and British leaders about a possible military strike if sanctions failed. The pessimists, for their part, insisted that the sanctions were too little too late, that America was in the grip of a new Vietnam-like trauma in Iraq, and that the mullahs' will to attain the bomb was stronger than the West's resolve to stop them. Now, with the release of the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iran, the argument apparently has been resolved. If sanctions fail to stop Iran from achieving the potential to produce nuclear weapons, the dirty work will be left to Israel, just as it was left to Israel to stop Saddam Hussein from going nuclear. America, even under George Bush, is hardly likely to go to war to stop a program many Americans now believe doesn't exist. Until now, pessimists here could console themselves that a last-resort Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear facilities would likely draw wide international sympathy and even gratitude--very different from the near-total condemnation that greeted Israel's attack on Saddam's reactor in 1981. Now, though, the NIE will ensure that if Israel does attack, it will be widely branded a warmonger, and faulted for the inevitable fallout of rising oil prices and increased terror. The sense of betrayal within the Israeli security system is deep. After all, Israel's great achievement in its struggle against Iran was in convincing the international community that the nuclear threat was real; now that victory has been undone--not by Russia or the European Union, but by Israel's closest ally. What makes Israeli security officials especially furious is that the report casts doubt on Iranian determination to attain nuclear weapons. There is a sense of incredulity here: Do we really need to argue the urgency of the threat all over again? The Israeli strategists I heard from ridicule the report's contention that "Tehran's decisions are guided by a cost-benefit approach rather than a rush to a weapon irrespective of the political, economic, and military costs." Is it, asks one Israeli analyst sarcastically, a cost-benefit approach for one of the world's largest oil exporters to risk international sanctions and economic ruin for the sake of a peaceful nuclear program? No one with whom I've spoken believes that professional considerations, such as new intelligence, were decisive in changing the American assessment on Iran. What has been widely hailed in the American media as an expression of intelligence sobriety, even courage, is seen in the Israeli strategic community as precisely the opposite: an expression of political machination and cowardice. "The Americans often accuse us of tailoring our intelligence to suit our political needs," notes a former top security official. "But isn't this report a case study of doing precisely that?" Adds a key security analyst: "The report didn't surprise me. The [American intelligence] system isn't healthy. It has been thoroughly politicized. I saw it when I brought hard evidence to them through the 1990s about how the Palestinian Authority was violating its commitments. Their responses weren't professional but political. This report only deepens the crisis of confidence we feel." The debate over the report within the Israeli security network is whether the motive of its sponsors was ideological or opportunistic. Was the NIE a back-handed way of implementing the Baker-Hamilton report, which called for engagement with Iran? Or, more simply, was the NIE motivated by fear among intelligence analysts not to be caught exaggerating another WMD crisis? Ironically, an Israeli reading of the report only confirms the anxiety here, felt across the political spectrum, about Iranian intentions and capabilities. Responding to the NIE, the left-wing newspaper, Haaretz, sounds like a neo-con organ: "While Iran continues threatening to annihilate Israel, what American intelligence thinks about Iran's nuclear capability is irrelevant.... The report establishes that if Iran wants to produce a bomb it can do so, and if it doesn't want to, it won't. This evaluation may have a restraining effect in internal American politics. But in Israeli politics it should cause the opposite reaction." After all, the NIE affirms not only that attaining nuclear weapons remains a central goal within the Iranian leadership, but also that, by continuing to enrich uranium, Iran has maintained efforts to make that goal achievable. For Israeli security analysts, the suspension in 2003 of Iran's covert nuclear military program--the NIE's defining issue--is hardly pivotal. Partly that's because the working assumption in Israeli intelligence is that the Iranians have resumed their covert military program. "The Syrians were working on their nuclear project for seven years, and we discovered it only recently," says one security analyst. "The Americans didn't know about it all. So how can they be so sure about Iran?" The more compelling reason, though, for minimizing the significance of a suspension of the covert military program is that the program itself is of secondary importance at this stage in the development of an Iranian bomb. The Iranians have continued to vigorously pursue two other programs--uranium enrichment and missile delivery systems--whose success would ensure them relatively quick access to military capability, even without a weapons program already in place. Says Shabtai Shavit, former head of the Mossad: "My assessment is that, after they decided to aim for nuclear weapons, they advanced on three parallel tracks: enriching uranium, creating components for a bomb, and developing missiles. The missiles are ready for operation. As for enrichment, they have encountered all kinds of problems, like exploding centrifuges. I estimate that they made great progress, and very quickly, on the military track. Since they have problems with the uranium enrichment track, they can allow themselves to delay the military track, and wait for progress with uranium." Given that world attention has been focused on the military track, a tactical Iranian concession made sense. Shavit notes that the problem with the NIE isn't in its facts but its deliberate ambiguity. "The whole report is filled with assessments of 'high probability,' 'middle probability,' 'low probability.' I don't need that." And if he had written the report? "I would have based my assessment on the facts and said unequivocally that Iran is going to create the ability to make a bomb." Nor do senior analysts here take seriously the NIE's vague assessments of when Iran will reach the point of no return: beginning in 2010, it says, though not likely until 2013 or even 2015. Israel's point of no return is when Iran attains the potential to produce sufficient fissile material for making a bomb. And they believe that is likely to happen--barring continued mishaps, accidental or not, in the Iranian nuclear program, like exploding centrifuges--somewhere within the next two years. Once the material is available, the final step toward constructing a bomb is the least complicated part of the process. "Making bombs is a much shorter process than uranium enrichment," explains Ephraim Asculai, a senior research fellow at the Institute for National Security Studies and a 40-year veteran of the Israel Atomic Energy Commission. "Today the Iranians are enriching uranium at four percent; to make a bomb, you need 90 percent. >From there, the transition doesn't require a lot of time. Most of the work has been done to get to the four percent. It is a matter of months, not years." That sense of urgency is evident in the highest ranks of the Israeli military. A recent letter circulated by Eliezer Shkedi, commander of the Israeli Air Force, to his officers offered a textual comparison between quotes from Hitler threatening Europe's Jews in the 1930s with quotes from Iranian President Ahmadinejad threatening Israel today. An accompanying letter, signed by an officer identified only as "responsible for the Iranian arena," noted laconically, "We can rely only on ourselves." With the release of the NIE, that old Israeli sentiment has become far more acute. Yossi Klein Halevi is a contributing editor of The New Republic and a senior fellow at the Shalem Center in Jerusalem. _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/2809c00c/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 11 14:22:33 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:22:33 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Lyrics with a special meaning Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Okay, getting song lyrics stuck in your head is not nearly as meaningful as having a 'PR' and begin thinking of a verse in the Tanach (Hebrew Bible). But I started humming a song to myself this morning on the Subway (at 5:10AM, you have to do something!), and they've stuck with me all day. It's from a group called SoulFarm, who play both 'Jewish' music and a kind of Grateful Dead/bluegrasss sound. And I just realized how perfect this line from the song, "The Ride" is for all of us on this 'Path' together; particularly regarding the reunification of ALL 12 Tribes.... "It doesn't matter which door you're comin' in from, as long as you're inside....." Think about THAT one over Shabbat, and then let me know if you can relate to it at all. It hit me like a ton of bricks...I have other lyrics for other messages, but that can wait for another time... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/24a0e30e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 11 14:50:32 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:50:32 EST Subject: [Dialogue] An article that I wanted to share Message-ID: Shalom to all - Many of you know (although I haven't written up that chapter yet - LOL) that from 2005-2006 I had been the Executive Director of Isralight, and amazing educational/spiritual organization, based in Jerusalem. Unfortunately, a number of donors didn't come through as they had promised, and I had to find a new job - the one I have now... :-( But I had the privilege of working with two of the greatest teachers of Torah today - Rabbi David Aaron, and Rav Binny Freedman. I just came across the article below, which I wanted to share - it was Rav Binny's account of having survived the horrific bombing of Sbarro's Pizza (it's Kosher there) in Jerusalem. That too, was a Friday afternoon, an Erev Shabbat, just like today...It's important not to forget these kind of things... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch (http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/israeldiary/) (http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/) _by Rabbi Binny Freedman_ (http://www.aish.com/search/article_search_results.asp?article_author=Rabbi+Binny+Freedman&title_text=&date_amount=&date_option=ye ar) A rabbi who survived the carnage describes its horror and heartbreak. _Email this_ (javascript:showEtfForm('top','israeldiary')) _Print this_ (http://www.aish.com/SSI/articleToPrint.asp?an=2576&PageURL=/jewishissues/israeldia ry/Inside_the_Cauldron_An_Eyewitness_Account_of_the_Jerusalem_Bombing.xml&tora hportion=&teaser=A+rabbi+who+survived+the+carnage+describes+its+horror+and+hea rtbreak.) Friday, August 10, Erev Shabbat -- Yesterday, Thursday, August 9th, the 20th of Av, on my way to work, I found myself walking down Jaffa Street. Hungry, I decided to stop and grab a quick bite at Sbarro's Pizza. In the past 5 years I have frequented this establishment exactly twice. Walking into Sbarro's there is a larger area for sitting in the front, but the back looked a bit cooler and quieter, so I decided to grab a seat in the back. That decision saved my life. Waiting on line, when they brought me the baked zitti I asked for, it was cold. So I asked the woman behind the counter if she'd mind warming it up. "Ein ba'ayah," no problem, she said with a smile. I will always wonder if that was her last smile on earth. I felt a tremendous explosion, and then the screaming began. A couple of moments later, a fellow from behind the counter came to the back with my baked zitti. Then he started to speak to someone at one of the tables. That baked zitti saved his life. At about 2pm, I felt and heard a tremendous explosion, and day turned into night. And then the screaming began. An awful, heartrending sound; the sound of people coming to terms with a whole new reality, of people not wanting to comprehend that life has changed forever. Those of us sitting in the back were spared, but I was afraid of panic, so I started yelling at everyone to quiet down and not to panic. The ceiling looked like it might cave in, but there is always the danger of a second explosion, detonated on purpose shortly after the first. But then I smelled smoke, and was suddenly afraid the restaurant might be on fire. So we started climbing our way through the wreckage to the front. Would there be another explosion? Would the roof collapse? Were we making the wrong decision, climbing through? There are moments that last a lifetime... There are no words to describe what the front of Sbarro's Pizza looked like in the immediate aftermath of that explosion. I watched the life just drain out of her. A woman was lying near the steps to the back. Her eyes were staring straight at me, following me. So full of pain and longing, sadness and despair. I dropped down beside her trying to elicit a response to see if she could speak. And then I watched the life just drain out of her. I tried to get a pulse, to no avail. She died there, on the steps in front of me. She was lying by the table I had decided not to sit at. Her eyes, I think, will stay with me forever. Imploring, beseeching, full of so much sadness. I think the shock of where and how she was, was sinking in. I can't begin to describe all that was in those eyes. There were bodies everywhere. Those images are in my mind and they won't let go. A child's body under the wreckage; a baby-carriage; limbs and a torso; a woman holding a motor-cycle helmet, screaming next to a person on the floor who had obviously been someone she was with. And then the mad rush to help the ambulance and emergency crews get the wounded out. They were afraid of a second bomb, so there was no medical effort inside beyond getting the wounded on to stretchers and out. A religious Jew missing at least two limbs in tears and shock -- what do you say? "Yehiyeh Be'Seder?" It will be all right? Will it? I happened to sit a bit to the left as you walk towards the back, and so the wall behind me shielded me from the blast. Another fellow whom we went back in to get wasn't so lucky. Sitting only 5 or 6 feet to my left, he caught the full force of the blast and was thrown in the air. When we got him on the stretcher he was bleeding profusely and was missing a leg. There are no words to describe what that man's hand, clenched around my arm, felt like. He just kept looking from me to his leg and back again. I started saying Psalms. I came home and gave each of my children a very long hug. So many mixed emotions fill my head today. I came home last night and gave each of my children a very long hug. But there are so many families today who are waking up to the reality that life will never be the same. 15 funerals with friends and families saying goodbye to those they loved so, whose only crime was a desire for a slice of pizza on a beautiful Jerusalem afternoon. I recall once, reading a story of a boy who was saved from a near-drowning by a stranger. As the fellow carried him ashore, the boy looked up and said, "Thanks for saving my life, mister." To which the man responded, "Just make sure it was worth saving." Tonight we celebrate Shabbat. All over Israel, parents will bless their children at the Shabbat table. I imagine we will all hug them a little tighter this week. In a few hours we will light Shabbat candles. This Shabbat, in the wake of all this darkness, the Jewish people will do what we have been doing for 4000 years; what we have always done. We will pick up the pieces and light our candles, because that is all we have ever wanted; just to bring a little light back into the world. After 2000 years of dreaming, we have come home. So many nations, and so many empires tried to stop us from getting here but here we are, nonetheless. Home. That word has such a beautiful sound to it, to a people that has wandered the globe for so long. We are not leaving. We will be here to celebrate this Shabbat and next Shabbat, and forever, until the end of time, here, in the hills of Judea and Gush Etzion, and Jerusalem. May the Almighty, who in His infinite Wisdom saw fit to allow me the privilege of celebrating one more Shabbat with my family, in the hills of Jerusalem, see fit to put an end to all of this pain, and all of this suffering. Wherever you are, and whoever you are, be with us here, in Yerushalyim, and offer up a prayer for all those who lost loved ones in yesterday's terrible tragedy. May it be God's will that soon, we will find the road to the peace we have longed for, for so long. Shabbat Shalom, **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/dd4ec32f/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 11 15:11:51 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:11:51 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Lyrics with a special meaning Message-ID: <011120082111.8396.4787DB94000E31AF000020CC22193122529B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Don't need to think about it. I'm already on board and so far it's been a wild ride. "People get ready, there's a train a'comin'.........." -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Okay, getting song lyrics stuck in your head is not nearly as meaningful as having a 'PR' and begin thinking of a verse in the Tanach (Hebrew Bible). But I started humming a song to myself this morning on the Subway (at 5:10AM, you have to do something!), and they've stuck with me all day. It's from a group called SoulFarm, who play both 'Jewish' music and a kind of Grateful Dead/bluegrasss sound. And I just realized how perfect this line from the song, "The Ride" is for all of us on this 'Path' together; particularly regarding the reunification of ALL 12 Tribes.... "It doesn't matter which door you're comin' in from, as long as you're inside....." Think about THAT one over Shabbat, and then let me know if you can relate to it at all. It hit me like a ton of bricks...I have other lyrics for other messages, but that can wait for another time... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080111/53d6bde0/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 12 14:04:14 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:04:14 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] test Message-ID: <011220082004.29361.47891D3E0005C875000072B122230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> test. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080112/c205e5bc/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jan 12 14:05:46 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:05:46 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] test In-Reply-To: <011220082004.29361.47891D3E0005C875000072B122230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <01f701c85556$85770f60$643c66c9@bettygivin> John, I received your test. Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:04 PM To: Dialogue Subject: [Dialogue] test test. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080112/c33c863f/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 12 14:06:28 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:06:28 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] test In-Reply-To: <01f701c85556$85770f60$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <011220082004.29361.47891D3E0005C875000072B122230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><01f701c85556$85770f60$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <272243125-1200168566-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1252172897-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Thanks Betty. It was so quiet today Dave, Rick and I were wondering if it wads down. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Betty Givin" Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:05:46 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] test John, I received your test. ? Betty ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:04 PM To: Dialogue Subject: [Dialogue] test ? test. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jan 12 14:17:43 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:17:43 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] test In-Reply-To: <272243125-1200168566-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1252172897-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <020701c85558$30409140$643c66c9@bettygivin> Maybe everyone was listening to Ross this am. I went to services at my synagogue and just got back a few moments ago. thought I would listen to the pod cast later...not the same as live, but still good! How was it today? BTW I have a question for you to ask Ross if you guys are still around today, but will email you privately if that is ok. Shabbat Shalom to you and Rick and Dave and all! Betty/Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:06 PM To: Dialogue Subject: Re: [Dialogue] test Thanks Betty. It was so quiet today Dave, Rick and I were wondering if it wads down. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Betty Givin" Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:05:46 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] test John, I received your test. ? Betty ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:04 PM To: Dialogue Subject: [Dialogue] test ? test. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted _______________________________________________ From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 12 14:26:19 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:26:19 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] test In-Reply-To: <020701c85558$30409140$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <272243125-1200168566-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1252172897-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><020701c85558$30409140$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <662298682-1200169757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1697751964-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Ross was not here today Betty. We had a really good discussion on prayer though. But you cal email me anytime and I will relay. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Betty Givin" Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:17:43 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] test Maybe everyone was listening to Ross this am. I went to services at my synagogue and just got back a few moments ago. thought I would listen to the pod cast later...not the same as live, but still good! How was it today? BTW I have a question for you to ask Ross if you guys are still around today, but will email you privately if that is ok. Shabbat Shalom to you and Rick and Dave and all! Betty/Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:06 PM To: Dialogue Subject: Re: [Dialogue] test Thanks Betty. It was so quiet today Dave, Rick and I were wondering if it wads down. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Betty Givin" Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:05:46 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] test John, I received your test. ? Betty ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:04 PM To: Dialogue Subject: [Dialogue] test ? test. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted_______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Jan 12 18:56:28 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:56:28 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Lyrics with a special meaning Message-ID: Hey John - Shavua tov/good week! I knew YOU would jump on this thread in a heartbeat! And, you picked a good one! :-) Hope things are well! Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080112/2ec7bf40/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 19:09:32 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:09:32 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801121709q7bbdc1b9m227ae42e585b6101@mail.gmail.com> I tried to listen to the discussion online, but it was cut off near the beginning. Hopefully it was recorded so that I can listen later. Interesting that the subject was prayer. I watched Rabbi Richman's latest lesson today, it was on prayer also..very good. Here's the link: http://universaltorah.com/programming/. It's the first lesson on the list:A continuation of the discussion of the Torah and Bnei Noach (Righteous Gentiles) and their "real-time" application: introducing prayer. Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080112/3de78b9a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Jan 12 19:14:02 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:14:02 EST Subject: [Dialogue] prayer Message-ID: Hey Kim - Shavua tov/good week! Thanks for the link, I will definitely check it out. How you had a nice, relaxing Shabbat. Best regards, Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080112/16d3153c/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 19:15:49 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:15:49 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Beth Israel Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801121715r264b66c4j3ea1a4e8ac35dea4@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch, I did not make it to the synagogue today, but I am really looking forward to meeting this Rabbi and his wife. I have read many articles about them and what they are doing in New Orleans. I am going to take my daughter out of public school in the next week or so to home school her. She's 13. This will give me an opportunity to go to New Orleans during the day and possibly meet with the Rabbi or his wife. I feel I should talk to him before I go, as this is a small congregation. If it's not possible to talk to him, I can at least email him first. Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080112/67ddc14c/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 19:21:06 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:21:06 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801121721t3c7dcf61ja331b0e757e9bdbf@mail.gmail.com> I did have a relaxing Shabbat even though not planned. My husband took the kids to a volleyball tournament. I had the day to myself to study. BTW, I lit the candles last night. We had a nice dinner. My husband and daughter rushed off shortly after dinner, but my little one and I danced together, singing Shabbat Shalom. We called my mom and sang with her too. Shavua tov to you too. Kim On Jan 12, 2008 7:14 PM, wrote: > Hey Kim - > > Shavua tov/good week! Thanks for the link, I will definitely check it > out. How you had a nice, relaxing Shabbat. > > Best regards, > Hanoch > > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080112/2f1fee71/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Jan 12 19:21:50 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:21:50 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Beth Israel Message-ID: Hey Kim! You'll LOVE Rav Uri - he is a really cool guy; Please feel free to tell him that you're a friend of Hanoch Young, and that I send regards. I only have a tiny bit of influence in this world Kim, feel free to use it all! :-) He is a very spiritual soul, and the kind of young Rabbi/Leader that the Jewish people have lacked here in the U.S. for a very long time (with few exceptions). Please let me know how it goes, okay? And good luck with the home schooling!! Best regards, Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080112/47fcc5e6/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 19:27:28 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:27:28 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Beth Israel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801121727q11a6b50cja2fda4fbd234beb8@mail.gmail.com> Cool! I was not sure if you knew him, or just knew of him. I will certainly drop your name. Do you have the link to the Beth Israel website? Apparently he helped design it. I love the dove with the olive branch-his idea. Well, anyway, here's the link:http://www.bethisraelnola.com/ if you don't have it. Kim On Jan 12, 2008 7:21 PM, wrote: > Hey Kim! > > You'll LOVE Rav Uri - he is a really cool guy; Please feel free to > tell him that you're a friend of Hanoch Young, and that I send regards. I > only have a tiny bit of influence in this world Kim, feel free to use it > all! :-) > > He is a very spiritual soul, and the kind of young Rabbi/Leader that > the Jewish people have lacked here in the U.S. for a very long time (with > few exceptions). > > Please let me know how it goes, okay? And good luck with the home > schooling!! > > Best regards, > Hanoch > > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080112/035da884/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 12 20:25:47 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 02:25:47 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer Message-ID: <011320080225.27072.478976A9000D996B000069C022243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Kim, I'm sorry you got cut off today, I'm not sure why that would have happened. We didn't have any technical problems today that I'm aware of (a first I think). Did anyone else that tried to listen have any problems? Anyway it was a little different today. Ross took a little vacation so we winged it on our own, it went pretty well as far as I can tell (not that Ross won't be welcomed back with open arms to be sure). We had a really good discussion on prayer. Hopefully we will get the recording posted soon. Shalom all. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "kim alvarado" : -------------- I tried to listen to the discussion online, but it was cut off near the beginning. Hopefully it was recorded so that I can listen later. Interesting that the subject was prayer. I watched Rabbi Richman's latest lesson today, it was on prayer also..very good. Here's the link: http://universaltorah.com/programming/. It's the first lesson on the list:A continuation of the discussion of the Torah and Bnei Noach (Righteous Gentiles) and their "real-time" application: introducing prayer. Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/e07cc05e/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 12 20:33:11 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 02:33:11 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Lyrics with a special meaning Message-ID: <011320080233.10739.47897865000E9DB7000029F322243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Hanoch, All is well (well at least peaceful). Shauva Tov back at ya man. I've been learning the "Tov's", mostly from your posts. I like to use them when I write to my non-Torah observant friends and family, it makes them ask questions, I like it when they ask questions. Please keep teaching us. "What a long, strange trip it's been...." -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hey John - Shavua tov/good week! I knew YOU would jump on this thread in a heartbeat! And, you picked a good one! :-) Hope things are well! Hanoch Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/1590bd98/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 13 09:59:13 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:59:13 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Learn Hebrew resources - FREE! Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim - I just stumbled across these fabulous YouTube listings below which will help you learn Hebrew; and they're all FREE!! Take advantage of it - they're amazing!! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah A new Learn Hebrew video has been uploaded to YouTube and TeacherTube. The topic of the new video is Reading and Writing. The YouTube address is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip_lV_zWrQQ The TeacherTube address is: http://www.teachertube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=47f042c4cd33dbede174 The list of previous uploaded videos is located at: http://www.jr.co.il/videos/index.html Enjoy the videos! **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/b58c00e3/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 13 10:23:18 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:23:18 EST Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show Message-ID: Shalom BETTY / Elisheva - It was funny that you mentioned that James will be going to "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" - I just got off the phone with Kyra, and guess what - she'll be there too!!! It IS a very, very small world.... B'Ahava, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/26140923/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 13 13:01:32 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:01:32 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <02de01c85616$b6b20b50$643c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, unfortunately, it looks like James will not be able to make it, but we will have to check it out and look for Kyra. Hopefully they will do an audience pan like they did last time and we will be able to see her! It is still a small world. I am not sure that I would recognize her though as it has been so long. Shalom and Shavua tov, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 10:23 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show Shalom BETTY / Elisheva - It was funny that you mentioned that James will be going to "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" - I just got off the phone with Kyra, and guess what - she'll be there too!!! It IS a very, very small world.... B'Ahava, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/b10411ba/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 13 16:50:36 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:50:36 EST Subject: [Dialogue] The relative size of Israel Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, It puts things in a bit of perspective, doesn't it? Hanoch (http://pictures.aol.com/ap/singleImage.do?pid=95c0-kM92jS5vaGExE28VcNDVab50LvHJJhLVoA6PQ7IgG8=) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/b5e814f1/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 13 16:52:28 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:52:28 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Prayer from Jerusalem Message-ID: <003901c85636$f914ece0$643c66c9@bettygivin> I understand that the topic of discussion yesterday was prayer. I am sorry that I missed it, as prayer is so relevant and more and more people world-wide seem to be discovering the importance of it. I was on the israelnational news website earlier checking up on the recent happenings in Israel, and found this link on the A7 (Arutz Sheva) website and thought it interesting. http://www.holycityprayer.com/ Since a number of us have been discussing prayer on the list, I thought this might be something some of you might be interested in. It looks as though people are getting together from all over the globe to pray. I thought it especially significant that all believers in the God of Abraham were welcome! See quote below "The Holy City Prayer Society is a nondenominational monotheistic fellowship dedicated to advancing the value of prayer in the minds of the general public around the world. Towards this goal, the Society produces literature, recruits members, and most importantly, prays for you. Members of the Holy City Prayer Society include Christians, Jews, and all believers in the God of Abraham." Also that the quote from King Solomon was mentioned. What is so special about prayer in the Holy City or thousands of years, people all over the world have had the Holy City in mind when directing their prayers to God. While He hears our supplications wherever we may be on earth, sages of old have already taught us that "Jerusalem is holier than all other places." When dedicating the Holy Temple that he built in Jerusalem, King Solomon cried out to the Lord (First Kings, chapter eight): "[One] from a far country... when he will come and pray toward this house, hear in heaven your dwelling place and do according to all that the stranger calls to You for." There is also a short video (less that 5 minutes) of explanation in case some might be interested. Shavua tov, Betty/Elisheva _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/554ba6b1/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 13 16:54:14 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:54:14 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Prayer from Jerusalem Message-ID: Thanks for passing this on Betty - NOW is the time to pray like never before.... Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/c1fb0445/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 13 18:55:44 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:55:44 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch/ The relative size of Israel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006901c85648$31ca3a70$643c66c9@bettygivin> WOW! Yes, indeed it does put it into perspective, Hanoch. A picture is worth a thousand words! It really is an ongoing miracle that this tiny piece of land which has been the source of conflict thru the centuries has not yet been swallowed up by the surrounding nations. HaShem seems to always start with "small" units, small things (like this tiny piece of land), so in a way the size of the land in which HaShem choose to place His name should not surprising. Consider this. * ONE person (Adam/Chava) * ONE family (Noah, then Abraham) * ONE people * ONE prophet (first Moses, then others) * ONE land * ONE King (Kind David), etc. And on this tiny piece of land, the center of the earth He chose * ONE city, Yerushalayim in which to place His Name (11 Kings 21:4). And then he calls us. * ONE from a city and two from a city (Jer 3:14-18) And promises to give us * ONE HEART & ONE WAY Jer 32:39 And then he takes the two sticks, ONE representing Judah and his companions, and ONE representing Joseph and his companions, and makes them * ONE IN HIS HAND And it goes without saying that according to the Torah and the Tanack that the main cornerstone of our faith lies in the SHEMA * Hear O Israel, the L-rd thy G-d is ONE So from this tiny plot of land about the size of New Jersey, HaShem is choosing to radiate out and focus his energies and is calling all of His people to come home! May it come to pass soon and in our day! Shavua tov, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The relative size of Israel Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, It puts things in a bit of perspective, doesn't it? Hanoch http://pictures.aol.com/ap/singleImage.do?pid=95c0-kM92jS5vaGExE28VcNDVab50L vHJJhLVoA6PQ7IgG8%3D _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/cd5f6681/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 13 19:54:49 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:54:49 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch/ The relative size of Israel Message-ID: Dear Betty - HaShem is indeed calling us home....and that current small piece of land (that Olmert & Bush want to put under foreign control - G-d forbid) is just temporary. We all KNOW that those are not the promised borders of Eretz Yisrael (see the Roots of Faith home page..) We all have much to prepare for - B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel/Ephraim), Hanoch **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/6e8af621/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Jan 13 19:57:19 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:57:19 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world References: Message-ID: <012d01c85650$cc2b2090$6700a8c0@davesbook> Hey "all", I enjoyed the Tuesday night live video. As I think back I am amazed to have witnessed the first Sat night live television episode, now to have witnessed the first Tuesday night live internet production. My obvious question is do they, the Jewish community, as a whole recognize the lost or displaced tribes? Im not looking for the long or short answer but a short full answer, [hey I can hope:~)>. As one that feels a slight draw to the land, but not sure I would be received, except maybe as a stranger living in the land. My guess is there would be some sort of resentment because they would naturally say "we have always been about keeping the 'way' " (ref. Luke chapter 15). I know I need to do further research into the Lost Tribe idea......although I did do some preliminary searching several years ago. So I understand the concept of those that aren't even aware that they are possible 'brothers', thus the slight tug that I cant explain. Even as a lad I can remember in the church bible classes (southern Baptist) asking about the 'chosen' and getting the stock answers that just didn't seem to make sense.....such as "Dad chose number 1 son.....but since "the Jews" didn't accept Jesus, that now it is open for every one". I can remember that it just didn't line up to what I felt deep down in my spirit. This led to much unnecessary wild living as one could say. Even In my early 20s after being broken and giving my life (what was left of it) to Jesus (who I assumed was God) and trying to figure out all that.....I go though 20+ years of trying to be the super Christian evangelist in and out of just about all types of denominations and isams and aintisms, never once running into a practicing Jewish seeker. I did have light contact with converted Jewish folks, but the subject of returning to the physical Land never came up. We just assumed that just by providing support for the Nation of Israel we would be blessed.....so I guess it is with a selfish motive that 'we' half heartily supported Israel. As my frustration and misdirection of the church continued to eat at me along with the underlying draw to The Father I became a major thorn to most Christians I was fellowshipping with, I was a rebel with out a cause. Then as I am about to burn the bridges to the last church (I was on staff) that I had witnessed fall apart I hear of a small start up bible study.....advertised "walk like Jesus walked"....I walk in doing my best Jesus walk and ran smack into a man truly trying to find out "what bible did Jesus read"..."what kind of church did Jesus go to......ect ect. So I walk right up to him and rudely declare "every church I have ever been in has split up after I start going to it...." (go figure). Ross didn't bat an eye and stated in the way Ross normally answers Questions....." That's fine seeing its just you and me, you will have to go....I aint leaving" I say " just warning you" and sat down....... So....I know that others that have walked in my shoes can relate to the frustration of trying to make it all fit, and I have been watching this dialogue emerge with requests of suggestions on how to reach out to others that may or may not feel the pull.....We have all acknowledged that the Sabbath is an important key in realizing that the creator has a plan and a specific way of learning this plan. The next step is to some how remove any preconceived untruths and misconceptions that we all have. This is a critical step because we have all seen those that just could not accept having their own stakes rattled, loosened and some times pulled out of what we thought was an anchor. (remind me to share the most strange dream or as I would put it...direct confirmation concerning this subject, at a later time). This step I feel should never be thought of as completed, as we all need to be willing to consider reevaluating our limited understanding. This willingness to consider why others are where they are is useful to open up dialogue with them......this involves acceptance...two way acceptance. Example....I was raised in a southern Baptist church because my dad (strict Lutheran background) fell in love with a southern girl (Baptist) while he was in training during WWII, I ended up being brought up Baptist. does that make me what I am? It is part of me, it is just how I was raised. Can I change? yes. But I was raised Baptist! My dad was raised in the Luther church. I don't know much about that religion, But I know my dad....so how does this help in considering where each of us got to where we are with each other and what difference does it make? well if we are to have a workable reason for this dialogue, understanding and getting to know each other and learning how to relate from our different areas of approach (like an airport with planes landing from all different directions). AND then traveling down a given path together, learning trust and acceptance, tolerance and cooperation, patience and the 'L' word......Love. "it just goes to show ya.....its always something......" dave ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 10:23 AM Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show Shalom BETTY / Elisheva - It was funny that you mentioned that James will be going to "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" - I just got off the phone with Kyra, and guess what - she'll be there too!!! It IS a very, very small world.... B'Ahava, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/9255af0e/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 13 21:25:51 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:25:51 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world In-Reply-To: <012d01c85650$cc2b2090$6700a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <00dc01c8565d$29f839e0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dave, Wow! You have said it all, and so well.Your closing remarks are so fitting to so much of where we are in this dialogue group."planes landing from all different directions" traveling down a path together, and the attributes that we need to practice all the way. Your words below: well if we are to have a workable reason for this dialogue, understanding and getting to know each other and learning how to relate from our different areas of approach (like an airport with planes landing from all different directions). AND then traveling down a given path together, learning trust and acceptance, tolerance and cooperation, patience and the 'L' word......Love. "it just goes to show ya.....its always something......" Yes, it IS always something. One of your questions, in italics below, I will attempt to answer. My obvious question is do they, the Jewish community, as a whole recognize the lost or displaced tribes? Im not looking for the long or short answer but a short full answer, [hey I can hope:~)>. Hanoch did address this point in a previous email, saying that whether the tribes will return has been a point of contention amongst the rabbis. I could tell you a funny story about when I dragged Roger up to meet a Chabad rabbi and announced that we were of the lost tribes, a part of the 10 men from the nations who wanted to grab their tzit-tzit!! A short full answer (my opinion) is probably, "no." But that is not the final answer; that is just where I believe the Jewish community as a whole is at present. We know that there are those that are the exceptions.like of course Hanoch and Rabbi Richman and Yair Davidy and John Hully. All of these men are trying to make their brothers of Judah more aware of the lost or displaced tribes. I think it is just a matter of time. Things never seem to happen as fast as we would like, but with little "inroads" person to person, and then the internet, which is a wonderful blessing, I fully believe that there is coming a heightened awareness. Just as I understood you indicated, that there are people who feel a pull, but don't know why because they don't yet know who they are (I think you meant people who are probably lost tribers), I think there are Jews who don't yet know that their brother(s), as in the Joseph story, is still around. I think the general opinion amongst Jews is that they are "lost" because they have intermingled amongst the nations" and will not return. But this is what the brothers thought about Joseph and he was there all along, in a far country, and he reached out to them and saved them. This will be too long to go into the particular prophesies that speak of this theme and how that Ephraim and those of Joseph will reach out and help save the Jewish people. There will be envy and jealousy, but there will be peace eventually, because the people, both Judah and Joseph will come together and be of One Heart. There is so much more to this, but it will be too lengthy.and I am sure that others have other thoughts and ideas to contribute. Thank-you, Dave, for sharing so much of your background and your life with us.it is all relevant.where we come from is indeed a part of us, but as you have discovered, does not have to dictate where we are going or what path we will take. So much of what follows after we leave home and make our own lives for ourselves is where we go, the people we meet, how open our eyes and ears are to study and learn, how much we let G-d dwell in our hearts and minds.and how much we love Him. I do believe that we have crossed paths with one another for a reason.that we can learn from one another, and as we learn, we will have opportunities to develop the attributes you mentioned, trust and acceptance, tolerance and cooperation, patience and the 'L' word......Love. So glad you enjoyed the show! FYI, there is a place at the bottom of the page to post a comment. I posted mine (#24) on the slide show portion and mentioned the "lost tribes" and the House of Joseph. It should be interesting to see if any pick up on it. There was a place where you could check your religious affiliation.the choices were Jewish, Christian, B'Nai Noach, other. It has only been in the last decade or so that B'Nai Noach has been recognized. I believe it is just a matter of time when the Lost Tribes or House of Joseph will be mentioned as well. Shalom and thanks for you thoughtful post Dave, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:57 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world Hey "all", I enjoyed the Tuesday night live video. As I think back I am amazed to have witnessed the first Sat night live television episode, now to have witnessed the first Tuesday night live internet production. My obvious question is do they, the Jewish community, as a whole recognize the lost or displaced tribes? Im not looking for the long or short answer but a short full answer, [hey I can hope:~)>. As one that feels a slight draw to the land, but not sure I would be received, except maybe as a stranger living in the land. My guess is there would be some sort of resentment because they would naturally say "we have always been about keeping the 'way' " (ref. Luke chapter 15). I know I need to do further research into the Lost Tribe idea......although I did do some preliminary searching several years ago. So I understand the concept of those that aren't even aware that they are possible 'brothers', thus the slight tug that I cant explain. Even as a lad I can remember in the church bible classes (southern Baptist) asking about the 'chosen' and getting the stock answers that just didn't seem to make sense.....such as "Dad chose number 1 son.....but since "the Jews" didn't accept Jesus, that now it is open for every one". I can remember that it just didn't line up to what I felt deep down in my spirit. This led to much unnecessary wild living as one could say. Even In my early 20s after being broken and giving my life (what was left of it) to Jesus (who I assumed was God) and trying to figure out all that.....I go though 20+ years of trying to be the super Christian evangelist in and out of just about all types of denominations and isams and aintisms, never once running into a practicing Jewish seeker. I did have light contact with converted Jewish folks, but the subject of returning to the physical Land never came up. We just assumed that just by providing support for the Nation of Israel we would be blessed.....so I guess it is with a selfish motive that 'we' half heartily supported Israel. As my frustration and misdirection of the church continued to eat at me along with the underlying draw to The Father I became a major thorn to most Christians I was fellowshipping with, I was a rebel with out a cause. Then as I am about to burn the bridges to the last church (I was on staff) that I had witnessed fall apart I hear of a small start up bible study.....advertised "walk like Jesus walked"....I walk in doing my best Jesus walk and ran smack into a man truly trying to find out "what bible did Jesus read"..."what kind of church did Jesus go to......ect ect. So I walk right up to him and rudely declare "every church I have ever been in has split up after I start going to it...." (go figure). Ross didn't bat an eye and stated in the way Ross normally answers Questions....." That's fine seeing its just you and me, you will have to go....I aint leaving" I say " just warning you" and sat down....... So....I know that others that have walked in my shoes can relate to the frustration of trying to make it all fit, and I have been watching this dialogue emerge with requests of suggestions on how to reach out to others that may or may not feel the pull.....We have all acknowledged that the Sabbath is an important key in realizing that the creator has a plan and a specific way of learning this plan. The next step is to some how remove any preconceived untruths and misconceptions that we all have. This is a critical step because we have all seen those that just could not accept having their own stakes rattled, loosened and some times pulled out of what we thought was an anchor. (remind me to share the most strange dream or as I would put it...direct confirmation concerning this subject, at a later time). This step I feel should never be thought of as completed, as we all need to be willing to consider reevaluating our limited understanding. This willingness to consider why others are where they are is useful to open up dialogue with them......this involves acceptance...two way acceptance. Example....I was raised in a southern Baptist church because my dad (strict Lutheran background) fell in love with a southern girl (Baptist) while he was in training during WWII, I ended up being brought up Baptist. does that make me what I am? It is part of me, it is just how I was raised. Can I change? yes. But I was raised Baptist! My dad was raised in the Luther church. I don't know much about that religion, But I know my dad....so how does this help in considering where each of us got to where we are with each other and what difference does it make? well if we are to have a workable reason for this dialogue, understanding and getting to know each other and learning how to relate from our different areas of approach (like an airport with planes landing from all different directions). AND then traveling down a given path together, learning trust and acceptance, tolerance and cooperation, patience and the 'L' word......Love. "it just goes to show ya.....its always something......" dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/64aa5457/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 13 21:52:35 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 03:52:35 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world Message-ID: <011420080352.13956.478ADC83000DD6260000368422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> ... but did not YHVH say: Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hosea 1:11 and The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. Isaiah 11:3 and Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Ezekiel 37:19 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/cc89c0db/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 13 22:23:33 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:23:33 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world In-Reply-To: <011420080352.13956.478ADC83000DD6260000368422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: <010201c85665$39845a80$643c66c9@bettygivin> YES!!! Unfortunately, most Jewish rabbis spend very little time in rabbinical school studying the Prophets and the people taught by them follow their example. Hanoch can probably verify this. But when they are presented with what these scriptures really say, perhaps their eyes may be opened as were Rabbi Chaim Richman's eyes opened! May it happen soon in our day..that we will indeed see that peaceful "gathering together," where there will be no more "envy" and "vexing" between Judah and Joseph. Thanks, Glen for sharing these scriptures. I love the way you respond to email with scriptures. You might want to consider going on to the website yourself and post those scriptures! If many of us all over the country would do that, who knows, maybe we could make an impact? Have you seen the show yet. The link below will take you to it. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one &id=2219 There are two segments available for listening and viewing.quite powerful I think. If you want to get a bit more of the background of the show and how it got started, you can click on the following link: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124786 This is the first comment that I posted on this link. The other link has over 900 comments. I made a comment on that one a few days later and included more scriptures. People reply to what others have written. Perhaps you could reply to this with your verses you quoted in this email or do a fresh post stating your point of view. What do you think? 24. Baruch HaShem! Baruch HaShem! This broadcast with its spirit of pure joy and proclamation from Jerusalem, the Ohr Adom (Light of the World) is indeed very timely and very refreshing in this day and time! The world sorely needs to hear this message, the call from Jerusalem for all of HaShem's children to return to the precepts of G-d and Torah and to come home from the four corners of the earth (Deut 29) and to "stand" in solidarity for the state of Israel, our homeland, and for the unity of the holy city, where HaShem said He would put His Name (II Kings 21:4)! The Torah needs to go out from Jerusalem, from Zion to the world, and this broadcast and the technology of the internet is making this prophecy a reality. It is going to Jews, the House of Judah, but also to those of Joseph and the lost tribes of the House of Israel who are being drawn to G-d, Torah and Israel. Betty/Elisheva, TX (12/01/08) Thanks, Glen and Shalom, Betty/Elisheva BTW, your song, " The Invitation" seems to just stay in my heart for hours on end. I find myself singing and humming it all the time! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world ... but did not YHVH say: Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hosea 1:11 and The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. Isaiah 11:3 and Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Ezekiel 37:19 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080113/bea40474/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 00:17:50 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:17:50 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world Message-ID: Hey, Dave,This was so cool. Thank you! I have read it several times now, and I just HAVE to ask..............is it a "later time" yet? Because I'm so very curious about you dream! I think it will be helpful to us all. So if you don't mind, please tell us. I also think your analogy of planes trying to land from all different directions is extremely apropos. Unfortunately, a few of us (well....me) are more like Kamikaze pilots! I believe most Jews have absolutely no idea about, nor have they shown much interest in the idea of their Lost brothers. I think Judah could feel threatened by the idea, just as Christians feel threatened by the idea of having to rethink their "stakes." But it really doesn't matter what any of us think on either side! Only HaShem's Word will prevail. We know, because of His Word, that both sides will have a change of heart! We will all eventually have One Heart. Our Father has promised over and over in His word that the two sides will be re-united, and therefore it WILL happen! We really don't have to worry about whether we can prove that we are Tribers. He knows who His are and where they are. So if we'll just Hac V Shema (which means shut up and listen, as you well know), He'll lead us! (I just had to say that!! I LOVE the name of that CD!) The Lost Tribes are my heart. Those in the forefront of trying to reach and teach them are very precious to me. The message is not a popular one because it entails moving many venerable old stakes. The very ground in which these stakes have been driven, has become "holy ground." Even the very thought of having to consider moving one of these stakes can sometimes bring out quite unwarranted and unfair reactions. Many thousands of people have built their lives, the lives of their families, and their incomes around these stakes. And sometimes, sadly, people are just plain more interested in preserving the world they love, than following God to a place they know not, as Abraham did. Nevertheless, HaShem's Plan will become reality. You're right, Dave, it's always something! Pat From: dhcole1 at cox.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves worldDate: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:57:19 -0600 Hey "all", I enjoyed the Tuesday night live video. As I think back I am amazed to have witnessed the first Sat night live television episode, now to have witnessed the first Tuesday night live internet production. My obvious question is do they, the Jewish community, as a whole recognize the lost or displaced tribes? Im not looking for the long or short answer but a short full answer, [hey I can hope:~)>. As one that feels a slight draw to the land, but not sure I would be received, except maybe as a stranger living in the land. My guess is there would be some sort of resentment because they would naturally say "we have always been about keeping the 'way' " (ref. Luke chapter 15). I know I need to do further research into the Lost Tribe idea......although I did do some preliminary searching several years ago. So I understand the concept of those that aren't even aware that they are possible 'brothers', thus the slight tug that I cant explain. Even as a lad I can remember in the church bible classes (southern Baptist) asking about the 'chosen' and getting the stock answers that just didn't seem to make sense.....such as "Dad chose number 1 son.....but since "the Jews" didn't accept Jesus, that now it is open for every one". I can remember that it just didn't line up to what I felt deep down in my spirit. This led to much unnecessary wild living as one could say. Even In my early 20s after being broken and giving my life (what was left of it) to Jesus (who I assumed was God) and trying to figure out all that.....I go though 20+ years of trying to be the super Christian evangelist in and out of just about all types of denominations and isams and aintisms, never once running into a practicing Jewish seeker. I did have light contact with converted Jewish folks, but the subject of returning to the physical Land never came up. We just assumed that just by providing support for the Nation of Israel we would be blessed.....so I guess it is with a selfish motive that 'we' half heartily supported Israel. As my frustration and misdirection of the church continued to eat at me along with the underlying draw to The Father I became a major thorn to most Christians I was fellowshipping with, I was a rebel with out a cause. Then as I am about to burn the bridges to the last church (I was on staff) that I had witnessed fall apart I hear of a small start up bible study.....advertised "walk like Jesus walked"....I walk in doing my best Jesus walk and ran smack into a man truly trying to find out "what bible did Jesus read"..."what kind of church did Jesus go to......ect ect. So I walk right up to him and rudely declare "every church I have ever been in has split up after I start going to it...." (go figure). Ross didn't bat an eye and stated in the way Ross normally answers Questions....." That's fine seeing its just you and me, you will have to go....I aint leaving" I say " just warning you" and sat down....... So....I know that others that have walked in my shoes can relate to the frustration of trying to make it all fit, and I have been watching this dialogue emerge with requests of suggestions on how to reach out to others that may or may not feel the pull.....We have all acknowledged that the Sabbath is an important key in realizing that the creator has a plan and a specific way of learning this plan. The next step is to some how remove any preconceived untruths and misconceptions that we all have. This is a critical step because we have all seen those that just could not accept having their own stakes rattled, loosened and some times pulled out of what we thought was an anchor. (remind me to share the most strange dream or as I would put it...direct confirmation concerning this subject, at a later time). This step I feel should never be thought of as completed, as we all need to be willing to consider reevaluating our limited understanding. This willingness to consider why others are where they are is useful to open up dialogue with them......this involves acceptance...two way acceptance. Example....I was raised in a southern Baptist church because my dad (strict Lutheran background) fell in love with a southern girl (Baptist) while he was in training during WWII, I ended up being brought up Baptist. does that make me what I am? It is part of me, it is just how I was raised. Can I change? yes. But I was raised Baptist! My dad was raised in the Luther church. I don't know much about that religion, But I know my dad....so how does this help in considering where each of us got to where we are with each other and what difference does it make? well if we are to have a workable reason for this dialogue, understanding and getting to know each other and learning how to relate from our different areas of approach (like an airport with planes landing from all different directions). AND then traveling down a given path together, learning trust and acceptance, tolerance and cooperation, patience and the 'L' word......Love. "it just goes to show ya.....its always something......" dave ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 10:23 AM Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show Shalom BETTY / Elisheva - It was funny that you mentioned that James will be going to "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" - I just got off the phone with Kyra, and guess what - she'll be there too!!! It IS a very, very small world.... B'Ahava, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/5b8ac54a/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 00:31:57 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:31:57 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world In-Reply-To: <010201c85665$39845a80$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <011420080352.13956.478ADC83000DD6260000368422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> <010201c85665$39845a80$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: Betty, I think you are so right. We have a way to make our "Lost" voices heard through Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem's message board. If we speak Scriptures, as Glenn does, then HaShem's Word can and will accomplish its purpose ("so shall My word be that goes out of My mouth: it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in that for which I sent it." Is 55:11) Pat From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves worldDate: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:23:33 -0600 YES!!! Unfortunately, most Jewish rabbis spend very little time in rabbinical school studying the Prophets and the people taught by them follow their example. Hanoch can probably verify this. But when they are presented with what these scriptures really say, perhaps their eyes may be opened as were Rabbi Chaim Richman?s eyes opened! May it happen soon in our day?.that we will indeed see that peaceful ?gathering together,? where there will be no more ?envy? and ?vexing? between Judah and Joseph. Thanks, Glen for sharing these scriptures. I love the way you respond to email with scriptures. You might want to consider going on to the website yourself and post those scriptures! If many of us all over the country would do that, who knows, maybe we could make an impact? Have you seen the show yet. The link below will take you to it. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one&id=2219 There are two segments available for listening and viewing?quite powerful I think. If you want to get a bit more of the background of the show and how it got started, you can click on the following link: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124786 This is the first comment that I posted on this link. The other link has over 900 comments. I made a comment on that one a few days later and included more scriptures. People reply to what others have written. Perhaps you could reply to this with your verses you quoted in this email or do a fresh post stating your point of view. What do you think? 24. Baruch HaShem! Baruch HaShem! This broadcast with its spirit of pure joy and proclamation from Jerusalem, the Ohr Adom (Light of the World) is indeed very timely and very refreshing in this day and time! The world sorely needs to hear this message, the call from Jerusalem for all of HaShem's children to return to the precepts of G-d and Torah and to come home from the four corners of the earth (Deut 29) and to "stand" in solidarity for the state of Israel, our homeland, and for the unity of the holy city, where HaShem said He would put His Name (II Kings 21:4)! The Torah needs to go out from Jerusalem, from Zion to the world, and this broadcast and the technology of the internet is making this prophecy a reality. It is going to Jews, the House of Judah, but also to those of Joseph and the lost tribes of the House of Israel who are being drawn to G-d, Torah and Israel. Betty/Elisheva, TX (12/01/08) Thanks, Glen and Shalom, Betty/Elisheva BTW, your song, ? The Invitation? seems to just stay in my heart for hours on end. I find myself singing and humming it all the time! From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chattertonw at bellsouth.netSent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:53 PMTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: RE: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world ... but did not YHVH say: Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hosea 1:11 and The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. Isaiah 11:3 and Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Ezekiel 37:19 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/a228dca2/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 01:03:41 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 02:03:41 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Samaritans-continuing discussion In-Reply-To: <20080113.154848.576.3.readesign@juno.com> References: <20080113.154848.576.3.readesign@juno.com> Message-ID: The message below concerns the Samaritans, in case anyone is interested. This subject relates to us because the Samaritans live in the area where the Lost Tribes once lived, before being taken into captivity by the Assyrians. The article explains the origins of this people called Samaritans. This material was taken from Yair Davidy's Brit-Am website by Richard Atwood for us. Pat seehttp://britam.org/now/now49.html (message from this link is pasted below)also run Samaritan through our search engine for more on this subjecthttp://www.britam.org/SearchEngines.html "Brit-Am Now"-49 "Brit-Am Now"-49Contents:1. Christian Zionist communities in Samaria?2. Christian Support for Israel is Selfless3. Brit-Am in need of funding4. Samaria5. Samaritans and BritainDate: 07/01/2002 3:06:23 PM Central Daylight Time Contents: 1. Christian Zionist communities in Samaria? 2.Christian Support for Israel is Selfless 3. Brit-Am in need of funding 4. Samaria 5. Samaritans and Britain 1. christian zionist communities in Samaria? From: steve omega Subject: A new idea? Israel should establish christian zionist communities in Samaria. This will dilute islamaniac influence, allow a greater democracy in the area and deflect attention from the jewish settlements. Comment: The time is not right but the day will come when people from the Lost Ten Tribes will begin to establish settlements in Samaria and other parts of Israel. I hope to write more on these matters in a couple of weeks. 2. Christian Support for Israel is Selfless Subject: Re: "Jerusalem News"-62 In reference to the Time article, I can understand the trepidation posed to both parties. But there is only one factor why I as a Christian support Israel and feel it is important to protect the Jewish people in this crisis. Its the right thing to do. Period. And a good Christian does things unconditionally. Sincerely Jim Linduff 3. Brit-Am in need of funding Brit-Am is in need of funding for matters that are important to us and to you and for which Brit-Am exists. Please contribute if you can by sending a check to Yair Davidiy POB 595 Jerusalem 91004 Israel 4. Samaria Encyclopedia Judaica > Also: Sebaste (city, Isr.); Ephraim Mountains (Er. Isr.) > SAMARIA (modern: Sebaste), capital of the kingdom of Israel in the ninth-eighth centuries B.C.E. The ancient city was founded by Omri, king of Israel, in c. 880 B.C.E. on the hill belonging to one Shemer (I Kings 16:24); hence its Hebrew name Shomron. Its history as known from ancient sources has been supplemented by excavations carried out by an expedition of Harvard University, directed by G. Reisner, C. S. Fisher, and D. G. Lyon in 1908 and 1910?11, and by the British School of Archaeology in Jerusalem and the Palestine Exploration Fund under the direction of J.W. Crowfoot, with the assistance of G. M. Crowfoot, E. L. Sukenik (on behalf of the Hebrew University), and K. Kenyon in 1931?35. A few traces of Early Bronze Age and early Iron Age settlements were uncovered. >Omri paid two talents of silver for the site and proceeded to clear the summit to bedrock, quarrying the latter for the foundation walls of an acropolis, which is rectangular in shape and measures c. 290 ft. (90 m.) from north to south and c. 585 ft. (180 m.) from west to east. It was originally enclosed by a wall of fine ashlar masonry, and at a later period was enlarged to the north and west by a casemate wall, which served both as a fortification and as a retaining wall for the palace and storerooms. A lower town protected by a massive wall of ashlar stones surrounded the acropolis. The acropolis contained the palace of Omri and Ahab. In its ruins were found ivories of Phoenician workmanship in style that was a mixture of Mesopotamian and Egyptian motifs; this was probably the "ivory house" Ahab had built for Jezebel, his consort. In the western part were the storehouses, in which 63 ostraca were found, bearing inscriptions concerning the delivery of wine and oil. Their exact date is disputed, > The fortunes of Samaria varied with those of the Israelite kingdom, reaching apogees in the reign of Omri and Ahab and again in the time of Jeroboam II. In 722/21 B.C.E., the city, then the capital of a much smaller kingdom, was taken by Sargon II of Assyria and its inhabitants deported. Colonists from Babylon, Cutha, and Hamath replaced the deportees and with an Israelite remnant, they formed the nucleus of the Samaritan population. The city remained the seat of an Assyrian governor. > [Michael Avi-Yonah] 5. Samaritans and Britain Extract from "Ephraim" chapter nine: THE SAMARITANS After the Ten Tribes had been exiled, "THE KING OF ASSYRIA BROUGHT MEN FROM BABYLON, AND FROM CUTHA, AND FROM AVA, AND FROM HAMATH, AND FROM SEPHARVAIM, AND PLACED THEM IN THE CITIES OF SAMARIA INSTEAD OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL...(2Kings 17;24). The new heathen settlers were known as "Samaritans" after the capital of the former kingdom of northern Israel, "Samaria", that the Assyrians placed them in. The Samaritans were attacked by a plague of wild lions*e. It was consequently reported to the king of Assyria that the Samaritans "Know not the manner of the God of the land" (2Kings 17;24). "THEN THE KING OF ASSYRIA COMMANDED, SAYING, CARRY THITHER ONE OF THE PRIESTS WHOM YE BROUGHT FROM THENCE; AND LET HIM GO AND DWELL THERE, AND LET HIM TEACH THEM THE MANNER OF THE GOD OF THE LAND. "THEN ONE OF THE PRIESTS WHOM THEY HAD CARRIED AWAY FROM SAMARIA CAME AND DWELT IN BETHEL, AND TAUGHT THEM HOW THEY SHOULD FEAR THE LORD? (2Kings 17;2728). "HOWBEIT EVERY NATION MADE GODS OF THEIR OWN? (2Kings 17;29). "SO THEY FEARED THE LORD, AND SERVED THEIR OWN GODS, AFTER THE MANNER OF THE NATIONS WHOM THEY CARRIED AWAY FROM THENCE (2Kings 17;32). "SO THESE NATIONS FEARED THE LORD, AND SERVED THEIR GRAVEN IMAGES, BOTH THEIR CHILDREN, AND THEIR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN: AS DID THEIR FATHERS, SO DO THEY UNTO THIS DAY (2Kings 17;41). Some of the Samaritans intermarried with some few of those northern Israelites whom the Assyrians had not exiled (Eliyahu Zuta 2;1). Jews from Judah also to some degree later intermixed with them. At some stages they came under heavy Jewish influence, both Orthodox-Pharisaic and sectarian. According to Josephus, when the Jews were powerful the Samaritans emphasized their "Hebraic" connections but when the Jews were persecuted they claimed to be of Phoenician stock. They were once very numerous and numbered in the millions though today there are only a few hundred left. They use the old Israelite "Phoenician " script. In the course of time the "Samartians" came to identify themselves as the Israelite Tribes of Ephraim and Menasseh. They believed their priests were descendants of Pinchas son of Elazar son of Aaron brother of Moses13. In the past, priestly families from Judah had intermarried with them and in some matters they may have preserved genuine traditions. Mills (1864) writes: "There was a tradition amongst them which has yet hardly died out that large numbers of their brethren were dwelling in various parts of the world in England, France, India, and elsewere"14. The Samaritans attempted to identify themselves as northern Israelites from the Tribes of Ephraim and Menasseh. Some few of them may have been descended from the ancient Israelites and this may explain their claimed link to England and France. The Samaritans still highly revere Joshua ben Nun and regard him as their founder. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/53de929a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: ATT00001 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/53de929a/attachment.pl From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 01:36:09 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:36:09 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] verse for today Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801132336j5014ea0v3776edcf36c30338@mail.gmail.com> Exodus 14 But Moses said to the people, "Have no fear! Stand by, and witness the deliverance which the Lord will work for you today; for the Egyptians whom you see today you will never see again. 14 The Lord will battle for you; you hold your peace!" 15 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Why do you cry out to Me? Tell the Israelites to go forward. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/692f4759/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Mon Jan 14 03:06:49 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 03:06:49 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world References: Message-ID: <002201c8568c$ce577f30$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Well said Pat!!! Keep up the good work! Blessings, Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 12:17 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world Hey, Dave, This was so cool. Thank you! I have read it several times now, and I just HAVE to ask..............is it a "later time" yet? Because I'm so very curious about you dream! I think it will be helpful to us all. So if you don't mind, please tell us. I also think your analogy of planes trying to land from all different directions is extremely apropos. Unfortunately, a few of us (well....me) are more like Kamikaze pilots! I believe most Jews have absolutely no idea about, nor have they shown much interest in the idea of their Lost brothers. I think Judah could feel threatened by the idea, just as Christians feel threatened by the idea of having to rethink their "stakes." But it really doesn't matter what any of us think on either side! Only HaShem's Word will prevail. We know, because of His Word, that both sides will have a change of heart! We will all eventually have One Heart. Our Father has promised over and over in His word that the two sides will be re-united, and therefore it WILL happen! We really don't have to worry about whether we can prove that we are Tribers. He knows who His are and where they are. So if we'll just Hac V Shema (which means shut up and listen, as you well know), He'll lead us! (I just had to say that!! I LOVE the name of that CD!) The Lost Tribes are my heart. Those in the forefront of trying to reach and teach them are very precious to me. The message is not a popular one because it entails moving many venerable old stakes. The very ground in which these stakes have been driven, has become "holy ground." Even the very thought of having to consider moving one of these stakes can sometimes bring out quite unwarranted and unfair reactions. Many thousands of people have built their lives, the lives of their families, and their incomes around these stakes. And sometimes, sadly, people are just plain more interested in preserving the world they love, than following God to a place they know not, as Abraham did. Nevertheless, HaShem's Plan will become reality. You're right, Dave, it's always something! Pat ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dhcole1 at cox.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:57:19 -0600 Hey "all", I enjoyed the Tuesday night live video. As I think back I am amazed to have witnessed the first Sat night live television episode, now to have witnessed the first Tuesday night live internet production. My obvious question is do they, the Jewish community, as a whole recognize the lost or displaced tribes? Im not looking for the long or short answer but a short full answer, [hey I can hope:~)>. As one that feels a slight draw to the land, but not sure I would be received, except maybe as a stranger living in the land. My guess is there would be some sort of resentment because they would naturally say "we have always been about keeping the 'way' " (ref. Luke chapter 15). I know I need to do further research into the Lost Tribe idea......although I did do some preliminary searching several years ago. So I understand the concept of those that aren't even aware that they are possible 'brothers', thus the slight tug that I cant explain. Even as a lad I can remember in the church bible classes (southern Baptist) asking about the 'chosen' and getting the stock answers that just didn't seem to make sense.....such as "Dad chose number 1 son.....but since "the Jews" didn't accept Jesus, that now it is open for every one". I can remember that it just didn't line up to what I felt deep down in my spirit. This led to much unnecessary wild living as one could say. Even In my early 20s after being broken and giving my life (what was left of it) to Jesus (who I assumed was God) and trying to figure out all that.....I go though 20+ years of trying to be the super Christian evangelist in and out of just about all types of denominations and isams and aintisms, never once running into a practicing Jewish seeker. I did have light contact with converted Jewish folks, but the subject of returning to the physical Land never came up. We just assumed that just by providing support for the Nation of Israel we would be blessed.....so I guess it is with a selfish motive that 'we' half heartily supported Israel. As my frustration and misdirection of the church continued to eat at me along with the underlying draw to The Father I became a major thorn to most Christians I was fellowshipping with, I was a rebel with out a cause. Then as I am about to burn the bridges to the last church (I was on staff) that I had witnessed fall apart I hear of a small start up bible study.....advertised "walk like Jesus walked"....I walk in doing my best Jesus walk and ran smack into a man truly trying to find out "what bible did Jesus read"..."what kind of church did Jesus go to......ect ect. So I walk right up to him and rudely declare "every church I have ever been in has split up after I start going to it...." (go figure). Ross didn't bat an eye and stated in the way Ross normally answers Questions....." That's fine seeing its just you and me, you will have to go....I aint leaving" I say " just warning you" and sat down....... So....I know that others that have walked in my shoes can relate to the frustration of trying to make it all fit, and I have been watching this dialogue emerge with requests of suggestions on how to reach out to others that may or may not feel the pull.....We have all acknowledged that the Sabbath is an important key in realizing that the creator has a plan and a specific way of learning this plan. The next step is to some how remove any preconceived untruths and misconceptions that we all have. This is a critical step because we have all seen those that just could not accept having their own stakes rattled, loosened and some times pulled out of what we thought was an anchor. (remind me to share the most strange dream or as I would put it...direct confirmation concerning this subject, at a later time). This step I feel should never be thought of as completed, as we all need to be willing to consider reevaluating our limited understanding. This willingness to consider why others are where they are is useful to open up dialogue with them......this involves acceptance...two way acceptance. Example....I was raised in a southern Baptist church because my dad (strict Lutheran background) fell in love with a southern girl (Baptist) while he was in training during WWII, I ended up being brought up Baptist. does that make me what I am? It is part of me, it is just how I was raised. Can I change? yes. But I was raised Baptist! My dad was raised in the Luther church. I don't know much about that religion, But I know my dad....so how does this help in considering where each of us got to where we are with each other and what difference does it make? well if we are to have a workable reason for this dialogue, understanding and getting to know each other and learning how to relate from our different areas of approach (like an airport with planes landing from all different directions). AND then traveling down a given path together, learning trust and acceptance, tolerance and cooperation, patience and the 'L' word......Love. "it just goes to show ya.....its always something......" dave ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 10:23 AM Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show Shalom BETTY / Elisheva - It was funny that you mentioned that James will be going to "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" - I just got off the phone with Kyra, and guess what - she'll be there too!!! It IS a very, very small world.... B'Ahava, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/880c2b64/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Mon Jan 14 03:08:19 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 03:08:19 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world References: <011420080352.13956.478ADC83000DD6260000368422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><010201c85665$39845a80$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <003a01c8568d$024a4b60$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Amen!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 12:31 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world Betty, I think you are so right. We have a way to make our "Lost" voices heard through Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem's message board. If we speak Scriptures, as Glenn does, then HaShem's Word can and will accomplish its purpose ("so shall My word be that goes out of My mouth: it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in that for which I sent it." Is 55:11) Pat ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bkgivin at charter.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:23:33 -0600 YES!!! Unfortunately, most Jewish rabbis spend very little time in rabbinical school studying the Prophets and the people taught by them follow their example. Hanoch can probably verify this. But when they are presented with what these scriptures really say, perhaps their eyes may be opened as were Rabbi Chaim Richman?s eyes opened! May it happen soon in our day?.that we will indeed see that peaceful ?gathering together,? where there will be no more ?envy? and ?vexing? between Judah and Joseph. Thanks, Glen for sharing these scriptures. I love the way you respond to email with scriptures. You might want to consider going on to the website yourself and post those scriptures! If many of us all over the country would do that, who knows, maybe we could make an impact? Have you seen the show yet. The link below will take you to it. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/?act=one&id=2219 There are two segments available for listening and viewing?quite powerful I think. If you want to get a bit more of the background of the show and how it got started, you can click on the following link: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124786 This is the first comment that I posted on this link. The other link has over 900 comments. I made a comment on that one a few days later and included more scriptures. People reply to what others have written. Perhaps you could reply to this with your verses you quoted in this email or do a fresh post stating your point of view. What do you think? 24. Baruch HaShem! Baruch HaShem! This broadcast with its spirit of pure joy and proclamation from Jerusalem, the Ohr Adom (Light of the World) is indeed very timely and very refreshing in this day and time! The world sorely needs to hear this message, the call from Jerusalem for all of HaShem's children to return to the precepts of G-d and Torah and to come home from the four corners of the earth (Deut 29) and to "stand" in solidarity for the state of Israel, our homeland, and for the unity of the holy city, where HaShem said He would put His Name (II Kings 21:4)! The Torah needs to go out from Jerusalem, from Zion to the world, and this broadcast and the technology of the internet is making this prophecy a reality. It is going to Jews, the House of Judah, but also to those of Joseph and the lost tribes of the House of Israel who are being drawn to G-d, Torah and Israel. Betty/Elisheva, TX (12/01/08) Thanks, Glen and Shalom, Betty/Elisheva BTW, your song, ? The Invitation? seems to just stay in my heart for hours on end. I find myself singing and humming it all the time! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] the "Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem" show/ daves world ... but did not YHVH say: Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hosea 1:11 and The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. Isaiah 11:3 and Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Ezekiel 37:19 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/28dc1628/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Mon Jan 14 03:28:19 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:28:19 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 1 In-Reply-To: <012d01c85650$cc2b2090$6700a8c0@davesbook> References: <012d01c85650$cc2b2090$6700a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <200801140928.m0E9SD7B005166@mail2527.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/74206cca/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 14 05:30:06 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 06:30:06 EST Subject: [Dialogue] verse for today Message-ID: Hey Kim - I LOVE it, but you guys already know that's my favorite pasuk (verse) in the whole Torah! Hope you have a great week! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/595ca72b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 14 05:43:46 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 06:43:46 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Pasuk (verse) from Mishlei (Proverbs) Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah He that walks with integrity fears the L-rd; but he that is perverse in his ways despises Him. Proverbs 14:2 **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/73aeaa0f/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 14 05:53:14 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 06:53:14 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Re: "Of Braveheart & Bush" - from the Wall Street Journal Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, This is an interesting piece that was in the Wall Street Journal - with a historical view. I thought you'd find it of interest. Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah AT WAR Of Braveheart and Bush The Mideast is no aberration. Just ask the Scots. BY MAX BOOT President Bush will travel to the Middle East this week, where he will become the latest U.S. president, going back to the 1940s, to make a major push to achieve peace between Israel and the Palestinians. It is hard to see what in the current situation--with the Gaza Strip in the hands of a rabidly anti-Israel group and the West Bank in the hands of only a mildly less anti-Israel group--makes him think he will succeed where his predecessors failed. Those who insist on pursuing the "peace process," notwithstanding the low probability of success, claim that we have no choice. "What is the alternative?" they ask. "Perpetual war?" Well, yes. To be skeptical of the peace process is not to suggest that such never-ending strife is desirable, but merely to acknowledge that it may be inevitable. The contrary view--that even a conflict as intractable as this one should end soon--rests on a sunny, if ahistorical, Enlightenment faith that peace is the natural order of things and war a temporary aberration. There is also a uniquely American perspective at work here: We normally fight short wars overseas, with even our longest conflict, Vietnam, lasting less than a decade (1965-73) if measured by the deployment of ground forces. Win or lose, we are used to having the shooting end within a few years. Given this outlook, many Americans believe that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, which has been raging in one form or another for 60 years, is overdue for resolution. But if measured by the length of other tribal and territorial disputes throughout history, there is no reason to think that the Arabs and Jews will soon beat their swords into plowshares. Consider just one such conflict, pitting the Scots against the English. The divide between the two nationalities--with similar religions (first Catholic, then Protestant), ethnic origins, languages and political systems--should have been easily bridged. But the Scots and English spent centuries killing one another. War broke out in 1296 after King Edward I of England tried to claim the empty throne of Scotland. This sparked a prolonged resistance led first by William Wallace and then, after his execution, by Robert Bruce. Both the Scots and the English resorted to terrorist tactics, with frequent burning, looting and killing on both sides. This savagery was evident early on: In 1297 William Heselrig, the English sheriff of the small town of Lanark, burned down a house belonging to Wallace's wife or girlfriend, Marion Braidfute, killing her and everyone else inside. Wallace's riposte is recorded in a medieval chronicle: "Gathering together a band of desperate men, he fell by night on the sheriff and his armed guard, hewed the sheriff into small pieces with his own sword and burned the buildings and those within them." Some scholars have cast doubt on elements of this traditional tale (which was dramatized in Mel Gibson's 1995 film, "Braveheart"), but there is no doubting the ferocity or frequency of such small-scale clashes. There were also some major battles--the Scots prevailed at Stirling Bridge (1297) and Bannockburn (1314), the English at Falkirk (1298), Halidon Hill (1333) and numerous later battlefields--but none proved decisive. Scotland was too small and poor to defeat England. And English monarchs lacked the resources or the will to pacify the prickly Scots. So the war ground on, century after century, interrupted occasionally by truces and treaties. The accession of a Scottish monarch to the throne of England in 1603 as King James I might have been expected to end the strife. Yet the two realms clashed again during the English Civil War in the 1640s. The conflict did not truly end until 1745, when a revolt by mainly Scottish supporters of the Stuarts (descendants of James I), was put down--449 years after the start of Anglo-Scottish hostilities. It is instructive to contemplate the virulence and length of the English struggles with the Scots (and also the similar, more recent battles with the Irish), given that their cultural and religious differences are trivial compared to those separating Israelis and Arabs. Attempts to end such conflicts before both sides are thoroughly exhausted are likely to have no more success than the Treaty of Northampton, which was supposed to end the Anglo-Scottish dispute in 1328. The only exception is if outside powers commit massive military force to bring peace, as happened in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s. But that's unlikely to happen in the Holy Land. While there is plenty of evidence that most Israelis are tired of today's war, there is little sign that their enemies are likely to give up anytime soon. Jihadists speak of their struggle to eliminate the "Zionist entity" as the work of centuries. Even if many ordinary Palestinians privately long for peace, their preferences are unlikely to prevail over those of the gunmen. Hard as it may be to accept, we have to confront the possibility that the Arab-Israeli conflict may not have a "solution," at least not in the foreseeable future, and that trying to create one represents a triumph of hope over experience. Mr. Boot is a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and author of "War Made New: Weapons, Warriors, and the Making of the Modern World" (Gotham, 2006). **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/8afac523/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 14 05:59:10 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 06:59:10 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 1 Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), Steve makes some really outstanding points here - and I agree with him that we should print this out and study it, since it has SO much background information that we really need to know. I hope to add on some stuff a bit later, as time allows, but this is the kind of thing that requires a LOT of study and will require a LOT of dialogue - both within the Jewish community(ies) and within the 'Ephramite' world. See you guys later! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah AND Israel/Ephraim), Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/83b25ebd/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 14 08:49:27 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:49:27 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] verse for today In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801132336j5014ea0v3776edcf36c30338@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006501c856bc$a965ca80$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thank-you, Kim! What a powerful verse! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 1:36 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] verse for today Exodus 14 But Moses said to the people, "Have no fear! Stand by, and witness the deliverance which the Lord will work for you today; for the Egyptians whom you see today you will never see again. 14 The Lord will battle for you; you hold your peace!" 15 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Why do you cry out to Me? Tell the Israelites to go forward. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/e2faeeda/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 14 09:46:07 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:46:07 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 1 In-Reply-To: <200801140928.m0E9SD7B005166@mail2527.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <007701c856c4$94564680$643c66c9@bettygivin> Excellent, Steve! First of all praying to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is essential. The websites you mentioned are all excellent and for one who is seeking, are goldmines. I keep many of the verses you mentioned in the front of my Bible for handy reference not only for my own study and review, but just in case I am asked.thanks! Shalom all, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 3:28 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 1 Dave, I will try my hand at a "short" answer, that will have the rock bottom basics about some items that will hopefully point you into the right direction for more particulars. I may have to chop up the answer into installments since your letter deals with several subjects that might need at least a comment to point you in the right direction for more complete answers that need a bit of time to explain and study. What I do ask you to do is that you first ask the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to guide your search, give you understanding of what you need to know, and to confirm and / or correct anything you may read here. At 05:57 PM 1/13/2008, you wrote: Hey "all", I enjoyed the Tuesday night live video. As I think back I am amazed to have witnessed the first Sat night live television episode, now to have witnessed the first Tuesday night live internet production. My obvious question is do they, the Jewish community, as a whole recognize the lost or displaced tribes? Im not looking for the long or short answer but a short full answer, [hey I can hope:~)>. On the whole, rabbis and individuals do not recognize the so-called "lost tribes" coming back today. They do not know where they are, where to look, or are being even conscious of the Biblical prophecies that talk about their returning. There may be a very few exceptions, however, they do not talk about it, or push the idea. There are some writings by a few commentators, e.g. Ramban, Abarbanel, Malbim, and some sparse entries in the Babylonian Talmud, where they are to be counted as "gentiles" till they return to the Covenant. The "consciousness" about the Ten Tribes is simply not in the Jewish mind. As far as they are concerned, they are Israel, and that is it, If If any (Orthodox) may be asked about it, they will say "the Moshiach is going to regather them." The very few that are looking for "lost tribes," are really looking for "lost Jews" only, and they do not even realize it. They are looking for obscure groups, who may possess some "Jewish, customs, traditions, i.e. trappings," e.g. the Lemba tribe in southern Africa. These are basically assimilated, intermarried remnants of Jews, e.g. remnants of escaped Jews from Yemen into Africa in medieval or ancient times. Some find remnants of ancient converts, e.g. the Falashes of Ethiopia. The latter are descendents of tribes from Ham, black people, who were never anthropologically speaking, part of the tribes of Israel. They are part of Jewry, via conversion in ancient times, some possibly going back to the time of Solomon and the queen of Sheba, some of later times. Some are modern converts, in historic times, e.g. 1920: http://www.mindspring.com/~jaypsand/abayudaya.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abayudaya http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/uganda1.html These are NOT "the lost Ten Tribes" and never were. They are "Jews" in the technical sense, who are being contacted and "regathered" by Jews. The understanding and identification of the "ten tribes" starts with and is founded on studying the blessings and curses in the Torah, e.g. Gen 49, Deut. 32, and 28 - 29, for starters. These identifying "signs" are the absolute foundations for further Biblical information regarding them in the Prophets and in the Writings. These latter sources are expansions and details of the "foundations" in the Torah. They contain "particulars, details, and clues," as to where to look for them in history and geography, e.g. "in the islands," the uttermost corners and parts of the earth: Deut 32:6, Isa. 41:1, 5. Some relevant basic references in the Bible are: The Covenant was to be eternal, never to be superseded or annulled. God keeps His Word, though we may not. This is why He does not need a "new covenant,' or a '"replacement" people or theology, Deut. 7:9-12. The Covenant was made with ALL the tribes of Israel, not just the Jews, i.e. descendents of Judah. It was made with ALL of Israel, even those not present at Mt. Sinai: Deut. 29:15. The blessings promised to Abraham's progeny were unconditional, e.g. great numbers, riches, a beneficial influence in the world, and military might, Gen. 13:16, 24:60, 26:24, 28:14,15, Hos. 1: 10-11. Other blessings were to be conditional, depending on how they adhered to the Covenant. Curses were conditional for leaving the Torah / Covenant, walking in the ways of the nations around them, and worshipping/adding other gods: Deut. 12;30-31, 27:26, 28:15, 30:17-19, Jer. 10:1, Hos. 10:2., I Kings 18:22 The sentence was "death," like on all the other idolater nations in the land before them: Deut. 7:22-26, 8:19, Jer. 11' After 19 evil kings, the Land spewed out the seceded Ten Tribes' kingdom of Israel, with its capital in Samaria, I Kings 12, II Kings 17. Their name, Israel, was to be taken from them, for they were to be "divorced'" by God, (Ez. 23), and they were not to be known by anyone, including their brethren the Jews, other nations, or by themselves as "His" people for the duration of the curse, Hos. 1:6-9, 8:8. They were cursed also by their own mouth. Because they wanted to be like the pig-eating pagan nations around them, they were to be like the pig-eating pagans next door. In fact, "the became the pig-eating pagans next door" in many instances. The curses to come upon them, including those in the last days are also "blessings," in that they are designed to drive Israel back to the Torah, and to the God of their fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, besides whom there is none else, Deut. 28-29, 8:19-20, Hos. 13:4 This is the "quintessential lesson" that Israel is to learn in the last days: Ex. 6:7, Jer. 31:22, Ez. 11:10, 19:26, 20:38. 42, 44, 22:16, 23:49. They are to study intensely all these Biblical references and the subject matter of who they are and what they have done, Isa. 30:9, Hos. 8:1, 14, Jer. 29:19, 31:24, Isa. 42:23, I Kings 14:9, because their sentence will up then, Isa. 40:2, (study the meaning of the word "warfare" in Hebrew) their ears and eyes and will be opened, Psalm 78:1-11, Hos. 4:6 and they will be let out of their "spiritual prison houses," Isa. 42:22, Psalm 107:10 During this time, they were to wander in the "wilderness of the nations, for the duration of "a sentence." This was 40 years the first time, and another "40" years later, which is a symbolic number of a "sentence" till they perish [spiritually] in the wilderness of the nations. They will be bound , joined/ wedded to their idols, Deut. 28:64, Hos. 4:17. Psalm 107;10, till they shed them in the last days, Hos. 3:5. Eventually, God will confront them on "how long they will halt / (Heb. limp) between two opinions, as they were confronted by Elijah the first time, ( I Kings 18:21), likewise they will be confronted to "choose" in the last days by the "work of Eli- Yah," (check the spelling in Hebrew), and be restored to the heart of the fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Mal. 3:24. When they are awakened by God to their identity from their "spiritual death" in the "Valley of Dry Bones," EZ. 37, some will protest and say, "but we know Thee," i.e. "the God of the Old Testament." But God will tell them, that they have not known Him: Hos. 5;4. They will be told that God desires "knowledge of God, more than anything else, Hos. 6:6. They will have to acknowledge their offence of idolatry and leaving the Covenant, and imitating the nations around them, Hos. 5:15, Ez. 6:9 When they will return, they will come "weeping, from the West." Hos. 11:10, Hos. 2:7, 16, They will return to the God of their fathers, Jer. 30:17-22, 32:37-38, from the isles and the "ends'"/ extremeties of the earth, Isa. 41; 5,9, Isa. 48:20, Isa. 49, REaccept the Covenant, (this is remarrying by the same Covenant, not a different one) Jer. 31;31, and they will have learned "the quintessential lesson," Hos. 2:20. mentioned in the first commandment, Ex. 20:1-2. A small but important footnote to the regathering of the Ten Tribes is the gathering of "others," not related to the Ten Tribes, who will be added to them, because they seek the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Isa. 56:6, 14:1, 66:20. A new heart and "ears" will be given, which Israel never wanted, Deut. 5:29, 18:16, 29:4, Jer. 32:39-40. Israel will finally "hear' God, and "love" God with their WHOLE heart. Israel is to ask for this "new heart, and ears to hear, Psalm 80:1-19. Till they ask for this, even though they will wake up to their "identity," they will not be truly alive, but will be like "zombies.," Ez. 37;11. They are to ask for the true connection, to the True God, from whom all life, including "spiritual life" comes. Only then will they be truly "alive." Then they will be able to fulfill their calling, as the "chosen nation," the firstborn of God," (Ex. 4:22), whose job is to be "the priests of God to the world," and teach "the Father's Teachings" to the other children of God," the Gentiles. Till this lesson / curriculum is learned, (the hard way), they will not be able to teach the other nations "the curriculum / Torah" of God. These are "some" basics for now. It is "the gospel" according to the Torah and the Prophets." Now you may have an idea, about at least one factor, as to why Jews have no knowledge about the Ten Tribes. Had they known and preserved it, the Ten Tribes would not have been lost. May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, give you understanding and whatever you need to understand. I do ask you and ALL who read this, to ask for Divine Guidance in your quest for His Truth. If any will do so, and agree to do whatever he/she may be revealed to do, (like Abraham), then surely, answers will come quickly. I have always seen this to be the case. Steve PS #1: I recommend you check out three websites: http://www.unitedisreal.org http://www.britam.org . http://www.uniteourheart.com . I recommend you print out the basic articles on these sites, put them in binders and study the references. Brit Am has some books you may want to order. PS#2 I recommend that for now, studying these references and not press or bother Jews with this knowledge. They are working on gathering Jews, not the Ten Tribes, at this time. The reunion will come, in God's time, when He makes it happen. For now, we are to obtain knowledge of God, for He wants to see what we are going to do with it. Asking for it is the first step to take. Stay tuned for Answers, part #2 ********************************************* As one that feels a slight draw to the land, but not sure I would be received, except maybe as a stranger living in the land. My guess is there would be some sort of resentment because they would naturally say "we have always been about keeping the 'way' " (ref. Luke chapter 15). I know I need to do further research into the Lost Tribe idea......although I did do some preliminary searching several years ago. So I understand the concept of those that aren't even aware that they are possible 'brothers', thus the slight tug that I cant explain. Even as a lad I can remember in the church bible classes (southern Baptist) asking about the 'chosen' and getting the stock answers that just didn't seem to make sense.....such as "Dad chose number 1 son.....but since "the Jews" didn't accept Jesus, that now it is open for every one". I can remember that it just didn't line up to what I felt deep down in my spirit. This led to much unnecessary wild living as one could say. Even In my early 20s after being broken and giving my life (what was left of it) to Jesus (who I assumed was God) and trying to figure out all that.....I go though 20+ years of trying to be the super Christian evangelist in and out of just about all types of denominations and isams and aintisms, never once running into a practicing Jewish seeker. I did have light contact with converted Jewish folks, but the subject of returning to the physical Land never came up. We just assumed that just by providing support for the Nation of Israel we would be blessed.....so I guess it is with a selfish motive that 'we' half heartily supported Israel. As my frustration and misdirection of the church continued to eat at me along with the underlying draw to The Father I became a major thorn to most Christians I was fellowshipping with, I was a rebel with out a cause. Then as I am about to burn the bridges to the last church (I was on staff) that I had witnessed fall apart I hear of a small start up bible study.....advertised "walk like Jesus walked"....I walk in doing my best Jesus walk and ran smack into a man truly trying to find out "what bible did Jesus read"..."what kind of church did Jesus go to......ect ect. So I walk right up to him and rudely declare "every church I have ever been in has split up after I start going to it...." (go figure). Ross didn't bat an eye and stated in the way Ross normally answers Questions....." That's fine seeing its just you and me, you will have to go....I aint leaving" I say " just warning you" and sat down....... So....I know that others that have walked in my shoes can relate to the frustration of trying to make it all fit, and I have been watching this dialogue emerge with requests of suggestions on how to reach out to others that may or may not feel the pull.....We have all acknowledged that the Sabbath is an important key in realizing that the creator has a plan and a specific way of learning this plan. The next step is to some how remove any preconceived untruths and misconceptions that we all have. This is a critical step because we have all seen those that just could not accept having their own stakes rattled, loosened and some times pulled out of what we thought was an anchor. (remind me to share the most strange dream or as I would put it...direct confirmation concerning this subject, at a later time). This step I feel should never be thought of as completed, as we all need to be willing to consider reevaluating our limited understanding. This willingness to consider why others are where they are is useful to open up dialogue with them......this involves acceptance...two way acceptance. Example....I was raised in a southern Baptist church because my dad (strict Lutheran background) fell in love with a southern girl (Baptist) while he was in training during WWII, I ended up being brought up Baptist. does that make me what I am? It is part of me, it is just how I was raised. Can I change? yes. But I was raised Baptist! My dad was raised in the Luther church. I don't know much about that religion, But I know my dad....so how does this help in considering where each of us got to where we are with each other and what difference does it make? well if we are to have a workable reason for this dialogue, understanding and getting to know each other and learning how to relate from our different areas of approach (like an airport with planes landing from all different directions). AND then traveling down a given path together, learning trust and acceptance, tolerance and cooperation, patience and the 'L' word......Love. "it just goes to show ya.....its always something......" Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/4ea99fd4/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Mon Jan 14 10:04:35 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Prayer from Jerusalem In-Reply-To: <003901c85636$f914ece0$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <003901c85636$f914ece0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <73DD669AA3CC426C9B5A3C05E578B78B@DickLPC> Betty ! Would this article be permitted to send to others? I have removed names ect ? Dick L Subject: Prayer from Jerusalem I understand that the topic of discussion yesterday was prayer. I am sorry that I missed it, as prayer is so relevant and more and more people world-wide seem to be discovering the importance of it. I was on the israelnational news website earlier checking up on the recent happenings in Israel, and found this link on the A7 (Arutz Sheva) website and thought it interesting. http://www.holycityprayer.com/ Since a number of us have been discussing prayer on the list, I thought this might be something some of you might be interested in. It looks as though people are getting together from all over the globe to pray. I thought it especially significant that all believers in the God of Abraham were welcome! See quote below "The Holy City Prayer Society is a nondenominational monotheistic fellowship dedicated to advancing the value of prayer in the minds of the general public around the world. Towards this goal, the Society produces literature, recruits members, and most importantly, prays for you. Members of the Holy City Prayer Society include Christians, Jews, and all believers in the God of Abraham." Also that the quote from King Solomon was mentioned. What is so special about prayer in the Holy City or thousands of years, people all over the world have had the Holy City in mind when directing their prayers to God. While He hears our supplications wherever we may be on earth, sages of old have already taught us that "Jerusalem is holier than all other places." When dedicating the Holy Temple that he built in Jerusalem, King Solomon cried out to the Lord (First Kings, chapter eight): "[One] from a far country... when he will come and pray toward this house, hear in heaven your dwelling place and do according to all that the stranger calls to You for." There is also a short video (less that 5 minutes) of explanation in case some might be interested. ______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/e49557f9/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 10:38:48 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:38:48 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 1 In-Reply-To: <200801140928.m0E9SD7B005166@mail2527.carrierzone.com> References: <012d01c85650$cc2b2090$6700a8c0@davesbook> <200801140928.m0E9SD7B005166@mail2527.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Wow! Talk about a Road Map! This is fabulous!!! Thank you, Steve. I've printed it out on my son's computer and am keeping it with me as I work today. Pat Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:28:19 -0800To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgFrom: eliasaph at uniteourheart.comSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 1Dave, I will try my hand at a "short" answer, that will have the rock bottom basics about some items that will hopefully point you into the right direction for more particulars. I may have to chop up the answer into installments since your letter deals with several subjects that might need at least a comment to point you in the right direction for more complete answers that need a bit of time to explain and study. What I do ask you to do is that you first ask the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to guide your search, give you understanding of what you need to know, and to confirm and / or correct anything you may read here. At 05:57 PM 1/13/2008, you wrote: Hey "all", I enjoyed the Tuesday night live video. As I think back I am amazed to have witnessed the first Sat night live television episode, now to have witnessed the first Tuesday night live internet production. My obvious question is do they, the Jewish community, as a whole recognize the lost or displaced tribes? Im not looking for the long or short answer but a short full answer, [hey I can hope:~)>. On the whole, rabbis and individuals do not recognize the so-called "lost tribes" coming back today. They do not know where they are, where to look, or are being even conscious of the Biblical prophecies that talk about their returning. There may be a very few exceptions, however, they do not talk about it, or push the idea. There are some writings by a few commentators, e.g. Ramban, Abarbanel, Malbim, and some sparse entries in the Babylonian Talmud, where they are to be counted as "gentiles" till they return to the Covenant. The "consciousness" about the Ten Tribes is simply not in the Jewish mind. As far as they are concerned, they are Israel, and that is it, If If any (Orthodox) may be asked about it, they will say "the Moshiach is going to regather them." The very few that are looking for "lost tribes," are really looking for "lost Jews" only, and they do not even realize it. They are looking for obscure groups, who may possess some "Jewish, customs, traditions, i.e. trappings," e.g. the Lemba tribe in southern Africa. These are basically assimilated, intermarried remnants of Jews, e.g. remnants of escaped Jews from Yemen into Africa in medieval or ancient times. Some find remnants of ancient converts, e.g. the Falashes of Ethiopia. The latter are descendents of tribes from Ham, black people, who were never anthropologically speaking, part of the tribes of Israel. They are part of Jewry, via conversion in ancient times, some possibly going back to the time of Solomon and the queen of Sheba, some of later times. Some are modern converts, in historic times, e.g. 1920: http://www.mindspring.com/~jaypsand/abayudaya.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abayudaya http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/uganda1.htmlThese are NOT "the lost Ten Tribes" and never were. They are "Jews" in the technical sense, who are being contacted and "regathered" by Jews. The understanding and identification of the "ten tribes" starts with and is founded on studying the blessings and curses in the Torah, e.g. Gen 49, Deut. 32, and 28 - 29, for starters. These identifying "signs" are the absolute foundations for further Biblical information regarding them in the Prophets and in the Writings. These latter sources are expansions and details of the "foundations" in the Torah. They contain "particulars, details, and clues," as to where to look for them in history and geography, e.g. "in the islands," the uttermost corners and parts of the earth: Deut 32:6, Isa. 41:1, 5. Some relevant basic references in the Bible are: The Covenant was to be eternal, never to be superseded or annulled. God keeps His Word, though we may not. This is why He does not need a "new covenant,' or a '"replacement" people or theology, Deut. 7:9-12.The Covenant was made with ALL the tribes of Israel, not just the Jews, i.e. descendents of Judah. It was made with ALL of Israel, even those not present at Mt. Sinai: Deut. 29:15.The blessings promised to Abraham's progeny were unconditional, e.g. great numbers, riches, a beneficial influence in the world, and military might, Gen. 13:16, 24:60, 26:24, 28:14,15, Hos. 1: 10-11. Other blessings were to be conditional, depending on how they adhered to the Covenant. Curses were conditional for leaving the Torah / Covenant, walking in the ways of the nations around them, and worshipping/adding other gods: Deut. 12;30-31, 27:26, 28:15, 30:17-19, Jer. 10:1, Hos. 10:2., I Kings 18:22The sentence was "death," like on all the other idolater nations in the land before them: Deut. 7:22-26, 8:19, Jer. 11'After 19 evil kings, the Land spewed out the seceded Ten Tribes' kingdom of Israel, with its capital in Samaria, I Kings 12, II Kings 17. Their name, Israel, was to be taken from them, for they were to be "divorced'" by God, (Ez. 23), and they were not to be known by anyone, including their brethren the Jews, other nations, or by themselves as "His" people for the duration of the curse, Hos. 1:6-9, 8:8.They were cursed also by their own mouth. Because they wanted to be like the pig-eating pagan nations around them, they were to be like the pig-eating pagans next door. In fact, "the became the pig-eating pagans next door" in many instances. The curses to come upon them, including those in the last days are also "blessings," in that they are designed to drive Israel back to the Torah, and to the God of their fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, besides whom there is none else, Deut. 28-29, 8:19-20, Hos. 13:4This is the "quintessential lesson" that Israel is to learn in the last days: Ex. 6:7, Jer. 31:22, Ez. 11:10, 19:26, 20:38. 42, 44, 22:16, 23:49.They are to study intensely all these Biblical references and the subject matter of who they are and what they have done, Isa. 30:9, Hos. 8:1, 14, Jer. 29:19, 31:24, Isa. 42:23, I Kings 14:9, because their sentence will up then, Isa. 40:2, (study the meaning of the word "warfare" in Hebrew) their ears and eyes and will be opened, Psalm 78:1-11, Hos. 4:6 and they will be let out of their "spiritual prison houses," Isa. 42:22, Psalm 107:10During this time, they were to wander in the "wilderness of the nations, for the duration of "a sentence." This was 40 years the first time, and another "40" years later, which is a symbolic number of a "sentence" till they perish [spiritually] in the wilderness of the nations. They will be bound , joined/ wedded to their idols, Deut. 28:64, Hos. 4:17. Psalm 107;10, till they shed them in the last days, Hos. 3:5.Eventually, God will confront them on "how long they will halt / (Heb. limp) between two opinions, as they were confronted by Elijah the first time, ( I Kings 18:21), likewise they will be confronted to "choose" in the last days by the "work of Eli- Yah," (check the spelling in Hebrew), and be restored to the heart of the fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Mal. 3:24. When they are awakened by God to their identity from their "spiritual death" in the "Valley of Dry Bones," EZ. 37, some will protest and say, "but we know Thee," i.e. "the God of the Old Testament." But God will tell them, that they have not known Him: Hos. 5;4. They will be told that God desires "knowledge of God, more than anything else, Hos. 6:6.They will have to acknowledge their offence of idolatry and leaving the Covenant, and imitating the nations around them, Hos. 5:15, Ez. 6:9When they will return, they will come "weeping, from the West." Hos. 11:10, Hos. 2:7, 16, They will return to the God of their fathers, Jer. 30:17-22, 32:37-38, from the isles and the "ends'"/ extremeties of the earth, Isa. 41; 5,9, Isa. 48:20, Isa. 49, REaccept the Covenant, (this is remarrying by the same Covenant, not a different one) Jer. 31;31, and they will have learned "the quintessential lesson," Hos. 2:20. mentioned in the first commandment, Ex. 20:1-2. A small but important footnote to the regathering of the Ten Tribes is the gathering of "others," not related to the Ten Tribes, who will be added to them, because they seek the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Isa. 56:6, 14:1, 66:20.A new heart and "ears" will be given, which Israel never wanted, Deut. 5:29, 18:16, 29:4, Jer. 32:39-40. Israel will finally "hear' God, and "love" God with their WHOLE heart. Israel is to ask for this "new heart, and ears to hear, Psalm 80:1-19. Till they ask for this, even though they will wake up to their "identity," they will not be truly alive, but will be like "zombies.," Ez. 37;11. They are to ask for the true connection, to the True God, from whom all life, including "spiritual life" comes. Only then will they be truly "alive." Then they will be able to fulfill their calling, as the "chosen nation," the firstborn of God," (Ex. 4:22), whose job is to be "the priests of God to the world," and teach "the Father's Teachings" to the other children of God," the Gentiles. Till this lesson / curriculum is learned, (the hard way), they will not be able to teach the other nations "the curriculum / Torah" of God. These are "some" basics for now. It is "the gospel" according to the Torah and the Prophets." Now you may have an idea, about at least one factor, as to why Jews have no knowledge about the Ten Tribes. Had they known and preserved it, the Ten Tribes would not have been lost. May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, give you understanding and whatever you need to understand. I do ask you and ALL who read this, to ask for Divine Guidance in your quest for His Truth. If any will do so, and agree to do whatever he/she may be revealed to do, (like Abraham), then surely, answers will come quickly. I have always seen this to be the case.StevePS #1: I recommend you check out three websites: http://www.unitedisreal.org http://www.britam.org. http://www.uniteourheart.com . I recommend you print out the basic articles on these sites, put them in binders and study the references. Brit Am has some books you may want to order. PS#2 I recommend that for now, studying these references and not press or bother Jews with this knowledge. They are working on gathering Jews, not the Ten Tribes, at this time. The reunion will come, in God's time, when He makes it happen. For now, we are to obtain knowledge of God, for He wants to see what we are going to do with it. Asking for it is the first step to take. Stay tuned for Answers, part #2 ********************************************* As one that feels a slight draw to the land, but not sure I would be received, except maybe as a stranger living in the land. My guess is there would be some sort of resentment because they would naturally say "we have always been about keeping the 'way' " (ref. Luke chapter 15). I know I need to do further research into the Lost Tribe idea......although I did do some preliminary searching several years ago. So I understand the concept of those that aren't even aware that they are possible 'brothers', thus the slight tug that I cant explain. Even as a lad I can remember in the church bible classes (southern Baptist) asking about the 'chosen' and getting the stock answers that just didn't seem to make sense.....such as "Dad chose number 1 son.....but since "the Jews" didn't accept Jesus, that now it is open for every one". I can remember that it just didn't line up to what I felt deep down in my spirit. This led to much unnecessary wild living as one could say. Even In my early 20s after being broken and giving my life (what was left of it) to Jesus (who I assumed was God) and trying to figure out all that.....I go though 20+ years of trying to be the super Christian evangelist in and out of just about all types of denominations and isams and aintisms, never once running into a practicing Jewish seeker. I did have light contact with converted Jewish folks, but the subject of returning to the physical Land never came up. We just assumed that just by providing support for the Nation of Israel we would be blessed.....so I guess it is with a selfish motive that 'we' half heartily supported Israel. As my frustration and misdirection of the church continued to eat at me along with the underlying draw to The Father I became a major thorn to most Christians I was fellowshipping with, I was a rebel with out a cause. Then as I am about to burn the bridges to the last church (I was on staff) that I had witnessed fall apart I hear of a small start up bible study.....advertised "walk like Jesus walked"....I walk in doing my best Jesus walk and ran smack into a man truly trying to find out "what bible did Jesus read"..."what kind of church did Jesus go to......ect ect. So I walk right up to him and rudely declare "every church I have ever been in has split up after I start going to it...." (go figure). Ross didn't bat an eye and stated in the way Ross normally answers Questions....." That's fine seeing its just you and me, you will have to go....I aint leaving" I say " just warning you" and sat down....... So....I know that others that have walked in my shoes can relate to the frustration of trying to make it all fit, and I have been watching this dialogue emerge with requests of suggestions on how to reach out to others that may or may not feel the pull.....We have all acknowledged that the Sabbath is an important key in realizing that the creator has a plan and a specific way of learning this plan. The next step is to some how remove any preconceived untruths and misconceptions that we all have. This is a critical step because we have all seen those that just could not accept having their own stakes rattled, loosened and some times pulled out of what we thought was an anchor. (remind me to share the most strange dream or as I would put it...direct confirmation concerning this subject, at a later time). This step I feel should never be thought of as completed, as we all need to be willing to consider reevaluating our limited understanding. This willingness to consider why others are where they are is useful to open up dialogue with them......this involves acceptance...two way acceptance. Example....I was raised in a southern Baptist church because my dad (strict Lutheran background) fell in love with a southern girl (Baptist) while he was in training during WWII, I ended up being brought up Baptist. does that make me what I am? It is part of me, it is just how I was raised. Can I change? yes. But I was raised Baptist! My dad was raised in the Luther church. I don't know much about that religion, But I know my dad....so how does this help in considering where each of us got to where we are with each other and what difference does it make? well if we are to have a workable reason for this dialogue, understanding and getting to know each other and learning how to relate from our different areas of approach (like an airport with planes landing from all different directions). AND then traveling down a given path together, learning trust and acceptance, tolerance and cooperation, patience and the 'L' word......Love. "it just goes to show ya.....its always something......" Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/6a0859fa/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 14 15:31:41 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:31:41 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Prayer from Jerusalem In-Reply-To: <73DD669AA3CC426C9B5A3C05E578B78B@DickLPC> Message-ID: <002301c856f4$dab98760$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dick, I don't see why not as long as there are no addresses that would be visible on the forward. I think it is a great website! I would say, "Go for it!" Take care, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 10:05 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Prayer from Jerusalem Betty ! Would this article be permitted to send to others? I have removed names ect ? Dick L Subject: Prayer from Jerusalem I understand that the topic of discussion yesterday was prayer. I am sorry that I missed it, as prayer is so relevant and more and more people world-wide seem to be discovering the importance of it. I was on the israelnational news website earlier checking up on the recent happenings in Israel, and found this link on the A7 (Arutz Sheva) website and thought it interesting. http://www.holycityprayer.com/ Since a number of us have been discussing prayer on the list, I thought this might be something some of you might be interested in. It looks as though people are getting together from all over the globe to pray. I thought it especially significant that all believers in the God of Abraham were welcome! See quote below "The Holy City Prayer Society is a nondenominational monotheistic fellowship dedicated to advancing the value of prayer in the minds of the general public around the world. Towards this goal, the Society produces literature, recruits members, and most importantly, prays for you. Members of the Holy City Prayer Society include Christians, Jews, and all believers in the God of Abraham." Also that the quote from King Solomon was mentioned. What is so special about prayer in the Holy City or thousands of years, people all over the world have had the Holy City in mind when directing their prayers to God. While He hears our supplications wherever we may be on earth, sages of old have already taught us that "Jerusalem is holier than all other places." When dedicating the Holy Temple that he built in Jerusalem, King Solomon cried out to the Lord (First Kings, chapter eight): "[One] from a far country... when he will come and pray toward this house, hear in heaven your dwelling place and do according to all that the stranger calls to You for." There is also a short video (less that 5 minutes) of explanation in case some might be interested. ______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/47c1f926/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 14 15:59:16 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:59:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] article - "Reflections of a Frustrated Zionist" Message-ID: <8CA250FD758ABA8-994-1858@WEBMAIL-DF17.sysops.aol.com> Shalom L'Kulchem (to everyone), ?? The article below raises a number of interesting points - I thought you'd find it thought provoking.? ? ?????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah REFLECTIONS OF A FRUSTRATED ZIONIST - YEAR END (2007) by Bernard J. Shapiro Much has happened in the last year. It has not been a good year for Zionism and the Jewish People. One could be optimistic and try to find the bright side of what has been happening. I am forced by nature to tell the truth in a realistic way. I am condemned to discuss harsh realities. Some of my reflections: 1. The growth of religious Zionism would save Israel, IF there were TIME for it to take power. I fear that time is running out. When will the Nationalist Camp realize that we are "at war already" with a PLO supported government that rules Israel? At what point will Israelis realize that the CIVIL WAR they fear, IS ALREADY TAKING PLACE AND THEY ARE LOSING? Why don't members of the Nationalist Camp understand that FORCE is being used by only ONE side which is the extremist pro-Arab anti-Semitic government. The monopoly on power must be broken or there is NO hope. 2. Appeals for aliyah to Israel are a joke. Sounds harsh and non-Zionist. I understand that. Let me make something "perfectly clear" as US President Richard Nixon used to say. As long as Israel is ruled by anti-Semites, who are more interested in protecting the Arab "right" to kill Jews, don't expect huge waves of aliyah. As long as the police, courts, Shin Bet, media continue to defame and persecute TRUE ZIONISTS, don't expect huge waves of immigration. As long as Land in Israel is controlled by the government (and the pro-Arab JNF) to the neglect of Jewish couples wanting to build affordable housing, don't expect a huge wave of immigration. As long as the IDF is used as a political tool to suppress freedom of speech and the G-d given right of the Jewish People to settle Eretz Yisrael, don't expect a huge wave of aliyah. As long as the bureaucracy in the Israel government ministries discourages individual enterprise, there will be no massive wave of immigration. 3. Israel's military/strategic policy as been on a sharp decline since the days of Former Israeli Pm Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin. When Israel agreed to allow the PLO to escape Beirut after the First Lebanon War in 1982, the decline began in earnest. The Freeman Center strategy would have been to agree to let them leave on ships that would have an "accident" en route killing all aboard. Israel has, without a doubt, the best military in world. The Israel Defense Forces are quite capable of achieving any objective the Israeli government puts before it. The soldiers of the IDF are brave, patriotic and exceptionally well trained and equipped. Unfortunately Israel's political leadership is confused, inept and lacking in Zionist motivation. Israel has been unable to stop the War of Extermination against it, because it lacks the political will to do what is necessary. The current campaign to secure the release of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, the captured IDF soldier, illustrates this fact. The Israeli government has given the military very limited objectives, primarily the release of the soldier. Proper strategic planning would use the sad situation of Shalit's capture to achieve a number of far reaching and important objectives. Already Olmert has done several things that prevent the accomplishment of these aims. He has stopped the offensive in Gaza to allow time for negotiations to release Shalit. He has allowed Israel's enemy, Egypt, to intervene, and given the terrorists time to re-group and make demands. The Israeli objectives should be: 1. The release of the soldier. 2. Elimination of the terrorist leadership in the PA. 3. Item #2 means successfully destroying the newly elected Hamas government. 4. Immediate annexation of all territory in Judea and Samaria that has strategic and religious value (which means all). 5. Withdraw citizenship and voting rights from Israeli Arabs who support terrorism against the State of Israel(which means most). 6. Create municipal councils but not sovereignty for Arab cities in the newly annexed areas. 7. Encourage Arab emigration by strict enforcement of taxes, building permits, national service requirements, and by providing funds to aid in emigration. 8. Dramatically increase Jewish immigration to Israel by reducing taxes and regulations on business. Immigration will soar once the lands of Judea and Samaria are opened up for massive Jewish settlement. 9. The Zionist/Jewish character of Israel must be affirmed and the cost of Jewish blood must rise dramatically as the government develops a zero tolerance for terrorism. All of the above objectives are achievable. It is my hope that the Olmert government will be replaced soon with a new Zionist government committed to the objectives I have listed above. 10. The policy of restraint may have been practical during the pre-state days and even during the! early years of Israeli independence. These periods were characterized by weakness and relative dependence on foreign goodwill. Following the Six Day War in 1967, the need for restraint (havlagah) decreased and the damage it caused began to become more evident. Israel became the preeminent power in the Middle East, yet failed to grasp the strategic opportunities that came with such dominance. Here are some of the historical highlights of the failed policy of restraint: 1. Following the Six Day War (1967) and the capture of Jerusalem, Moshe Dayan turned over control of Judaism's most sacred place, the Temple Mount, to Moslem authorities. He did it to appease their sensibilities to the Israeli capture of the city. Jewish rights were ignored to please the defeated Arabs, who had plotted our destruction. Dayan also prevented a mass exodus of Arabs from YESHA, which ultimately led to the problems we face today. 2. During the War of Attrition with Egypt (1969-70), the Israeli forces adopted primarily a defensive posture. They built a system of bunkers (The Bar Lev Line) along the Suez Canal. Israeli soldiers were heavily pounded daily by Egyptian artillery. Finally they began to use aircraft to strike targets deep into Egypt. The policy of restraint kept them from striking anything but military and minor economic targets. Israeli soldiers died because the government was inhibited from causing Egypt 'real' pain. 3. The Yom Kippur War of 1973 is a classic example of restraint run amok. Israeli military intelligence did not fail to recognize the approaching danger as has been the common account. In fact, Israel's leaders made the political decision not to utilize the great power of the IDF to crush the Egyptian and Syrian armies that they KNEW were planning to attack. Thousands of Israeli soldiers died needlessly. 4. The Camp David Accord with Egypt was another example of the failure to exert Israeli power. The oil fields of Sinai would have given Israel economic independence from America. The cost of redeployment from Sinai placed Israel in almost permanent debt to American diplomacy (increasingly pro-Arab). Did Israel achieve anything worthwhile at Camp David? I think not and I believe history will bear me out. Egypt has become one of the most ant-Semitic and hostile Arab countries in the world. As a result of Camp David, the Egyptian army now threatens Israel, having been equipped with the most modern American weapons. 5. During the War in Lebanon (1982), the IDF reached Beirut and then failed to complete the destruction of the PLO. Our enemies were allowed to escape and prepare to fight another day. Why didn't the Israeli Navy sink the ships loaded with PLO troops (including Arafat) as they fled Beirut? RESTRAINT! 6. In 1987 the intifada began and the Israeli forces showed great restraint and thus were incapable of crushing it. Of course, Israel received no credit in the Western media for such restraint. The failure to defeat this uprising began a process of demoralization among the Israeli population. 7. The Persian Gulf War (1991) and the SCUD attacks on Israel led to further demoralization. The failure to adequately respond to Iraq's aggression and the humiliating sealed rooms, led to a rapid decline in Israeli morale and desire to defend itself. More and more Israelis began to feel impotent, weak and fatigued with the continuous battle for survival. The Oslo Accords were the logical outcome of this depression and feeling that they could not sustain the struggle. 8. The Oslo Accords (1993) were the ultimate failure of the policy of restraint. Israel like America actually was very powerful. The IDF was unequaled in the Middle East while the US was the most powerful nation in the world. Yet despite this power, Israel's leaders, were ready to grant equal status to a band of murderers and ultimately create a state of "Palestine" which would challenge its right to the Land and its capital of Jerusalem. 9. Israeli forces in Lebanon should have been given a free hand to 'punish' all those who facilitate attacks on them including Syria, Lebanon, and Iran. There should be no more agreements that tie Israeli hands. The damage caused by havlagah (restraint) has been immense and it far past time to reverse that policy. Americans have been viciously attacked in Africa, Yeman, and Saudi Arabia. The attempt to try to criminalize terrorism has been a dreadful mistake. Terrorism is sponsored by states who allow their territory and funds to help the organization of terrorist. The Oslo agreement allowed Arafat to set up terrorist headquarters in Israel's heartland. From there he sent terrorists to attack Israel. With plausible deniability he claims "he is not responsible." 12 THINGS I AM SICK AND TIRED OF: 1. I am sick and tired of the slowly escalating actions of the IDF to fight terrorism. The slow escalation allows PA terrorism to become immune to Israel's strategy. It allows them to smuggle more guns, missiles, mortars and anti-aircraft missiles into PA territory. This is much the same as with bacterial infections. If the antibiotic is not strong enough to eliminate it, then the disease will return in a much more virulent form. I would suggest that the IDF launch a massive offensive against the terrorists until victory. 2. I am sick and tired of the Israeli government's fear of collateral damage to the enemy. The Arabs have no such qualms. In fact they target civilians in bestial suicide and rocket attacks. PA weapons factories, weapons storage depots and bomb making facilities should be blasted off the face of earth even if it causes civilian casualties. Remember that "he who is merciful to the cruel, will end up being cruel to the merciful." Also remember that the US Civil War, WWI and WWII were won by the massive inflection of casualties on the enemies's civilian populations. 3. I am sick and tired of Israeli PM Olmert's policy of restraint. The adjustment to accepting the killing of Jews is an abomination. A Jew here or there murdered daily, pretty soon adds up to a lot of dead and maimed Jews. I remember when the Al Aksa terror on Israel began in September 2000, the IDF general staff opened a file called "Operation Thorns", a plan for the retaking of the PA areas. They estimated Israeli dead at 300. Since then there have been almost 1500 Jews killed, which is five times the estimated combat deaths (plus 10,000 wounded, many maimed for life), with no apparent consequences to the terrorists' ability to inflict casualties on Israel. There is one extremely important variable. The PA (especially in Gaza) has used the last six years to build bunkers, firing positions, smuggle in heavy weapons and missiles, create an underground arms industry and organize an army of 100,000. The defeat of PA now would certainly be more costly. And it will grow with time. There is a very short window of time to defeat the PA terrorists with minimal losses. Many political analysts and military experts agree that Israel must take decisive action NOW. 4. I am sick and tired of the US State Department urging Israel to show "restraint." Despite the fact that the CIA knows exactly WHO (PA) is attacking WHOM (Israel) the State Department continues call for a stop to the "cycle of violence." Whenever Israel is attacked viciously, there is rush to tell Israel "to turn the other cheek". Are we Christians or Jews? Does American follow the Christian policy expected of Israel? 5. I am sick and tired of Shimon Peres trying to arrange another appeasement for the PA. He claims to be seeking a cease fire and a return to negotiations. Let me be honest with you. I don't want negotiations with either Hamas, Abbas or Assad. I want to crush them and their terrorist gangs. 6. I am sick and tired of the continued UN presence within the borders of Israel. It's time to remove them and assert Israel's sovereignty. Israel should work to have the world withdraw its recognition of Arab refugee camps and refugees. It should condemn the hypocritical treatment of the Arab countries in exploiting these people for political purposes. Israel should declare in a strong voice that there are NO refugees. That status is not permanent and obviously should not apply to people living in the same place for 58 years. 7. I am sick and tired of the international boycott of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Israel should unilaterally announce to the nations of the world that all embassies MUST be in Jerusalem. (Consulates may be in Tel Aviv or any other place they want). Israel will no longer permit its eternal capital to be disrespected. 8. I am sick and tired that under both Labor and Likud governments, Arutz Sheva, Israel National Radio, has not been fully legalized. Whatever happened to freedom of speech? Arutz Sheva should not only be allowed to establish facilities on land but also a television channel. I am also sick and tired of government television being controlled and dominated by the extreme left that does not represent the Israeli public. A lot of the time they represent the Arabs and not Israelis. 9. I am sick and tired of Israel's trying to be 'Mister Nice Guy' to a hypocritical world. Europeans are increasingly comparing Israel to the Nazis. Over half of all the resolutions of the UN since its founding have been directed against Israel. At the conference on how to condemn Israel in Durban, South Africa, UN head Kofi Anan condemned Israel for existing. In fact, at a recent meeting at the UN, there was a map of "Palestine", which included all of Israel. The Arab world openly plots the destruction of Israel. I am sick and tired of the vilification of "settlers". 10. I am sick and tired of Israel tolerating Moslem restrictions and desecrations on the Temple Mount. The excuse that it would cause violence to exercise our rights there is absurd. Israel has the capability to enforce security. Virtually everything Israel wants do in the Land of Israel displeases the Arabs, who want us to leave. Jews should be allowed to pray on the Temple Mount and the destruction of Jewish antiquities by the Moslem waqf needs to be stopped immediately. 11. I am sick and tired of PA demonstrations of the fierceness of their terrorists and how they will destroy Israel. Why not knock off a bunch of them during their demonstrations? Maybe they would be more circumspect. 12. And most important, the IDF and police should never be used for political purposes. Their purpose is to protect Israelis and not to expel them from their homes or persecute them. ========== I DO believe that we will defeat our current adversaries. We will succeed and survive from three sources of our strength: Love of Tanach (Torah), Love of Eretz Israel (Land of Israel, and Love of Am Yisrael (People of Israel). .......In blood and fire was Israel born, and on a hot anvil was she forged. Her youth understood that life in the new Jewish homeland would require sacrifice. With stories of the stench of burning flesh from the ovens of Auschwitz embedded deep in their psyches, the young Israeli soldiers fight with the firm conviction that there is still no alternative, "ein breira." (From personal diary1992). To that I would like add something the American soldiers used to say during the heaviest fighting in Viet Nam. This is dedicated (slightly revised) to the brave IDF soldiers who face the enemy every day: Yea, though I walk through the Valley of Death, I will fear no evil because the Almighty fights with me for the Restoration of Zion and for love of HIS people, Israel. .......And for the Jews of YESHA, I believe that He will NOT allow Olmert to expel them from the heartland of ERETZ YISRAEL. But remember, the Lor-d helps those who help themselves. Do not wait for a miracle -- BE THE MIRACLE! ========= Bernard J. Shapiro is the Chairman of the Freeman Center For Strategic Studies and Editor of its publications including THE MACCABEAN ONLINE and THE FREEMANLIST. REFLECTIONS OF A FRUSTRATED ZIONIST - YEAR END (2007) by Bernard J. Shapiro Much has happened in the last year. It has not been a good year for Zionism and the Jewish People. One could be optimistic and try to find the bright side of what has been happening. I am forced by nature to tell the truth in a realistic way. I am condemned to discuss harsh realities. Some of my reflections: 1. The growth of religious Zionism would save Israel, IF there were TIME for it to take power. I fear that time is running out. When will the Nationalist Camp realize that we are "at war already" with a PLO supported government that rules Israel? At what point will Israelis realize that the CIVIL WAR they fear, IS ALREADY TAKING PLACE AND THEY ARE LOSING? Why don't members of the Nationalist Camp understand that FORCE is being used by only ONE side which is the extremist pro-Arab anti-Semitic government. The monopoly on power must be broken or there is NO hope. 2. Appeals for aliyah to Israel are a joke. Sounds harsh and non-Zionist. I understand that. Let me make something "perfectly clear" as US President Richard Nixon used to say. As long as Israel is ruled by anti-Semites, who are more interested in protecting the Arab "right" to kill Jews, don't expect huge waves of aliyah. As long as the police, courts, Shin Bet, media continue to defame and persecute TRUE ZIONISTS, don't expect huge waves of immigration. As long as Land in Israel is controlled by the government (and the pro-Arab JNF) to the neglect of Jewish couples wanting to build affordable housing, don't expect a huge wave of immigration. As long as the IDF is used as a political tool to suppress freedom of speech and the G-d given right of the Jewish People to settle Eretz Yisrael, don't expect a huge wave of aliyah. As long as the bureaucracy in the Israel government ministries discourages individual enterprise, there will be no massive wave of immigration. 3. Israel's military/strategic policy as been on a sharp decline since the days of Former Israeli Pm Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin. When Israel agreed to allow the PLO to escape Beirut after the First Lebanon War in 1982, the decline began in earnest. The Freeman Center strategy would have been to agree to let them leave on ships that would have an "accident" en route killing all aboard. Israel has, without a doubt, the best military in world. The Israel Defense Forces are quite capable of achieving any objective the Israeli government puts before it. The soldiers of the IDF are brave, patriotic and exceptionally well trained and equipped. Unfortunately Israel's political leadership is confused, inept and lacking in Zionist motivation. Israel has been unable to stop the War of Extermination against it, because it lacks the political will to do what is necessary. The current campaign to secure the release of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, the captured IDF soldier, illustrates this fact. The Israeli government has given the military very limited objectives, primarily the release of the soldier. Proper strategic planning would use the sad situation of Shalit's capture to achieve a number of far reaching and important objectives. Already Olmert has done several things that prevent the accomplishment of these aims. He has stopped the offensive in Gaza to allow time for negotiations to release Shalit. He has allowed Israel's enemy, Egypt, to intervene, and given the terrorists time to re-group and make demands. The Israeli objectives should be: 1. The release of the soldier. 2. Elimination of the terrorist leadership in the PA. 3. Item #2 means successfully destroying the newly elected Hamas government. 4. Immediate annexation of all territory in Judea and Samaria that has strategic and religious value (which means all). 5. Withdraw citizenship and voting rights from Israeli Arabs who support terrorism against the State of Israel(which means most). 6. Create municipal councils but not sovereignty for Arab cities in the newly annexed areas. 7. Encourage Arab emigration by strict enforcement of taxes, building permits, national service requirements, and by providing funds to aid in emigration. 8. Dramatically increase Jewish immigration to Israel by reducing taxes and regulations on business. Immigration will soar once the lands of Judea and Samaria are opened up for massive Jewish settlement. 9. The Zionist/Jewish character of Israel must be affirmed and the cost of Jewish blood must rise dramatically as the government develops a zero tolerance for terrorism. All of the above objectives are achievable. It is my hope that the Olmert government will be replaced soon with a new Zionist government committed to the objectives I have listed above. 10. The policy of restraint may have been practical during the pre-state days and even during the! early years of Israeli independence. These periods were characterized by weakness and relative dependence on foreign goodwill. Following the Six Day War in 1967, the need for restraint (havlagah) decreased and the damage it caused began to become more evident. Israel became the preeminent power in the Middle East, yet failed to grasp the strategic opportunities that came with such dominance. Here are some of the historical highlights of the failed policy of restraint: 1. Following the Six Day War (1967) and the capture of Jerusalem, Moshe Dayan turned over control of Judaism's most sacred place, the Temple Mount, to Moslem authorities. He did it to appease their sensibilities to the Israeli capture of the city. Jewish rights were ignored to please the defeated Arabs, who had plotted our destruction. Dayan also prevented a mass exodus of Arabs from YESHA, which ultimately led to the problems we face today. 2. During the War of Attrition with Egypt (1969-70), the Israeli forces adopted primarily a defensive posture. They built a system of bunkers (The Bar Lev Line) along the Suez Canal. Israeli soldiers were heavily pounded daily by Egyptian artillery. Finally they began to use aircraft to strike targets deep into Egypt. The policy of restraint kept them from striking anything but military and minor economic targets. Israeli soldiers died because the government was inhibited from causing Egypt 'real' pain. 3. The Yom Kippur War of 1973 is a classic example of restraint run amok. Israeli military intelligence did not fail to recognize the approaching danger as has been the common account. In fact, Israel's leaders made the political decision not to utilize the great power of the IDF to crush the Egyptian and Syrian armies that they KNEW were planning to attack. Thousands of Israeli soldiers died needlessly. 4. The Camp David Accord with Egypt was another example of the failure to exert Israeli power. The oil fields of Sinai would have given Israel economic independence from America. The cost of redeployment from Sinai placed Israel in almost permanent debt to American diplomacy (increasingly pro-Arab). Did Israel achieve anything worthwhile at Camp David? I think not and I believe history will bear me out. Egypt has become one of the most ant-Semitic and hostile Arab countries in the world. As a result of Camp David, the Egyptian army now threatens Israel, having been equipped with the most modern American weapons. 5. During the War in Lebanon (1982), the IDF reached Beirut and then failed to complete the destruction of the PLO. Our enemies were allowed to escape and prepare to fight another day. Why didn't the Israeli Navy sink the ships loaded with PLO troops (including Arafat) as they fled Beirut? RESTRAINT! 6. In 1987 the intifada began and the Israeli forces showed great restraint and thus were incapable of crushing it. Of course, Israel received no credit in the Western media for such restraint. The failure to defeat this uprising began a process of demoralization among the Israeli population. 7. The Persian Gulf War (1991) and the SCUD attacks on Israel led to further demoralization. The failure to adequately respond to Iraq's aggression and the humiliating sealed rooms, led to a rapid decline in Israeli morale and desire to defend itself. More and more Israelis began to feel impotent, weak and fatigued with the continuous battle for survival. The Oslo Accords were the logical outcome of this depression and feeling that they could not sustain the struggle. 8. The Oslo Accords (1993) were the ultimate failure of the policy of restraint. Israel like America actually was very powerful. The IDF was unequaled in the Middle East while the US was the most powerful nation in the world. Yet despite this power, Israel's leaders, were ready to grant equal status to a band of murderers and ultimately create a state of "Palestine" which would challenge its right to the Land and its capital of Jerusalem. 9. Israeli forces in Lebanon should have been given a free hand to 'punish' all those who facilitate attacks on them including Syria, Lebanon, and Iran. There should be no more agreements that tie Israeli hands. The damage caused by havlagah (restraint) has been immense and it far past time to reverse that policy. Americans have been viciously attacked in Africa, Yeman, and Saudi Arabia. The attempt to try to criminalize terrorism has been a dreadful mistake. Terrorism is sponsored by states who allow their territory and funds to help the organization of terrorist. The Oslo agreement allowed Arafat to set up terrorist headquarters in Israel's heartland. From there he sent terrorists to attack Israel. With plausible deniability he claims "he is not responsible." 12 THINGS I AM SICK AND TIRED OF: 1. I am sick and tired of the slowly escalating actions of the IDF to fight terrorism. The slow escalation allows PA terrorism to become immune to Israel's strategy. It allows them to smuggle more guns, missiles, mortars and anti-aircraft missiles into PA territory. This is much the same as with bacterial infections. If the antibiotic is not strong enough to eliminate it, then the disease will return in a much more virulent form. I would suggest that the IDF launch a massive offensive against the terrorists until victory. 2. I am sick and tired of the Israeli government's fear of collateral damage to the enemy. The Arabs have no such qualms. In fact they target civilians in bestial suicide and rocket attacks. PA weapons factories, weapons storage depots and bomb making facilities should be blasted off the face of earth even if it causes civilian casualties. Remember that "he who is merciful to the cruel, will end up being cruel to the merciful." Also remember that the US Civil War, WWI and WWII were won by the massive inflection of casualties on the enemies's civilian populations. 3. I am sick and tired of Israeli PM Olmert's policy of restraint. The adjustment to accepting the killing of Jews is an abomination. A Jew here or there murdered daily, pretty soon adds up to a lot of dead and maimed Jews. I remember when the Al Aksa terror on Israel began in September 2000, the IDF general staff opened a file called "Operation Thorns", a plan for the retaking of the PA areas. They estimated Israeli dead at 300. Since then there have been almost 1500 Jews killed, which is five times the estimated combat deaths (plus 10,000 wounded, many maimed for life), with no apparent consequences to the terrorists' ability to inflict casualties on Israel. There is one extremely important variable. The PA (especially in Gaza) has used the last six years to build bunkers, firing positions, smuggle in heavy weapons and missiles, create an underground arms industry and organize an army of 100,000. The defeat of PA now would certainly be more costly. And it will grow with time. There is a very short window of time to defeat the PA terrorists with minimal losses. Many political analysts and military experts agree that Israel must take decisive action NOW. 4. I am sick and tired of the US State Department urging Israel to show "restraint." Despite the fact that the CIA knows exactly WHO (PA) is attacking WHOM (Israel) the State Department continues call for a stop to the "cycle of violence." Whenever Israel is attacked viciously, there is rush to tell Israel "to turn the other cheek". Are we Christians or Jews? Does American follow the Christian policy expected of Israel? 5. I am sick and tired of Shimon Peres trying to arrange another appeasement for the PA. He claims to be seeking a cease fire and a return to negotiations. Let me be honest with you. I don't want negotiations with either Hamas, Abbas or Assad. I want to crush them and their terrorist gangs. 6. I am sick and tired of the continued UN presence within the borders of Israel. It's time to remove them and assert Israel's sovereignty. Israel should work to have the world withdraw its recognition of Arab refugee camps and refugees. It should condemn the hypocritical treatment of the Arab countries in exploiting these people for political purposes. Israel should declare in a strong voice that there are NO refugees. That status is not permanent and obviously should not apply to people living in the same place for 58 years. 7. I am sick and tired of the international boycott of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Israel should unilaterally announce to the nations of the world that all embassies MUST be in Jerusalem. (Consulates may be in Tel Aviv or any other place they want). Israel will no longer permit its eternal capital to be disrespected. 8. I am sick and tired that under both Labor and Likud governments, Arutz Sheva, Israel National Radio, has not been fully legalized. Whatever happened to freedom of speech? Arutz Sheva should not only be allowed to establish facilities on land but also a television channel. I am also sick and tired of government television being controlled and dominated by the extreme left that does not represent the Israeli public. A lot of the time they represent the Arabs and not Israelis. 9. I am sick and tired of Israel's trying to be 'Mister Nice Guy' to a hypocritical world. Europeans are increasingly comparing Israel to the Nazis. Over half of all the resolutions of the UN since its founding have been directed against Israel. At the conference on how to condemn Israel in Durban, South Africa, UN head Kofi Anan condemned Israel for existing. In fact, at a recent meeting at the UN, there was a map of "Palestine", which included all of Israel. The Arab world openly plots the destruction of Israel. I am sick and tired of the vilification of "settlers". 10. I am sick and tired of Israel tolerating Moslem restrictions and desecrations on the Temple Mount. The excuse that it would cause violence to exercise our rights there is absurd. Israel has the capability to enforce security. Virtually everything Israel wants do in the Land of Israel displeases the Arabs, who want us to leave. Jews should be allowed to pray on the Temple Mount and the destruction of Jewish antiquities by the Moslem waqf needs to be stopped immediately. 11. I am sick and tired of PA demonstrations of the fierceness of their terrorists and how they will destroy Israel. Why not knock off a bunch of them during their demonstrations? Maybe they would be more circumspect. 12. And most important, the IDF and police should never be used for political purposes. Their purpose is to protect Israelis and not to expel them from their homes or persecute them. ========== I DO believe that we will defeat our current adversaries. We will succeed and survive from three sources of our strength: Love of Tanach (Torah), Love of Eretz Israel (Land of Israel, and Love of Am Yisrael (People of Israel). .......In blood and fire was Israel born, and on a hot anvil was she forged. Her youth understood that life in the new Jewish homeland would require sacrifice. With stories of the stench of burning flesh from the ovens of Auschwitz embedded deep in their psyches, the young Israeli soldiers fight with the firm conviction that there is still no alternative, "ein breira." (From personal diary1992). To that I would like add something the American soldiers used to say during the heaviest fighting in Viet Nam. This is dedicated (slightly revised) to the brave IDF soldiers who face the enemy every day: Yea, though I walk through the Valley of Death, I will fear no evil because the Almighty fights with me for the Restoration of Zion and for love of HIS people, Israel. .......And for the Jews of YESHA, I believe that He will NOT allow Olmert to expel them from the heartland of ERETZ YISRAEL. But remember, the Lor-d helps those who help themselves. Do not wait for a miracle -- BE THE MIRACLE! ========= Bernard J. Shapiro is the Chairman of the Freeman Center For Strategic Studies and Editor of its publications including THE MACCABEAN ONLINE and THE FREEMANLIST. ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/1eab0a65/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 18:28:07 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:28:07 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] God's Boxes In-Reply-To: <00c301c852ff$8c3b8c30$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <00c301c852ff$8c3b8c30$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: Very cool, Betty. Thank you ~ Pat From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:38:09 -0600Subject: [Dialogue] God's Boxes Friends, I rarely send these type messages around, but I deleted all the excess verbage that went with it and kept just the message. I think it is worthwhile and wanted to share it with you! Wouldn?t it be wonderful if we could always put this into practice every day? Thinking of you all today. Love, Betty God's Boxes I have in my hands two boxes,Which God gave me to hold.He said, "Put all your sorrows in the black box,And all your joys in the gold." I heeded His words, and in the two boxes, Both my joys and sorrows I stored,But though the gold became heavier each day,The black was as light as before.With curiosity, I opened the black,I wanted to find out why, And I saw, in the base of the box, a hole, Which my sorrows had fallen out by.I showed the hole to God, and mused,"I wonder where my sorrows could be!"He smiled a gentle smile and said,"My child, they're all here with me.." I asked God, why He gave me the boxes,Why the gold and the black with the hole?"My child, the gold is for you to count your blessings,The black is for you to let go." We should consider all of our friends a blessing. Send this to a friend today just to let them know youare thinking of them and that they are a joy in your life.A ball is a circle, no beginning, no end. It keeps us together like our Circle of Friends.But the treasure inside for you to see, Is the treasure of friendship you've granted to me.Today I pass the friendship ball to you.Pass it on to someone who is a friend to you... Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out! Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. Start now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/fd219f2f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 9708 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/fd219f2f/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.gif Type: image/gif Size: 6995 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/fd219f2f/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.gif Type: image/gif Size: 14891 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/fd219f2f/attachment-0002.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.gif Type: image/gif Size: 29511 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080110/fd219f2f/attachment-0003.gif From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 23:08:42 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:08:42 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] article - "Reflections of a Frustrated Zionist" In-Reply-To: <8CA250FD758ABA8-994-1858@WEBMAIL-DF17.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA250FD758ABA8-994-1858@WEBMAIL-DF17.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801142108x3ab2167cs41c5b6fbbc94e49d@mail.gmail.com> My first reaction: What is wrong with these people (the decision makers of Israel)!!!! Of course, I know the answer already. The same thing that is wrong with so many, including myself at times. Not believing in HaShem and seeking Him with our whole heart. If only the Shema were said and meant every day, by every soul. May the time be soon. I pray that we have the strength & courage. Also the discernment to know when to "shut up and listen" and when to move forward. Exodus 14 Moses said to the people, Don't be afraid! Stand firm and see the Lord's salvation that He will wreak for you today, for the way you have seen the Egyptians is [only] today, [but] you shall no longer continue to see them for eternity. *14. *The Lord will fight for you, but you shall remain silent. *15. *The Lord said to Moses, Why do you cry out to Me? Speak to the children of Israel and let them travel.* (move forward) *Kim* * On Jan 14, 2008 3:59 PM, wrote: > Shalom L'Kulchem (to everyone), > > The article below raises a number of interesting points - I thought > you'd find it thought provoking. > > * Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah* > > REFLECTIONS OF A FRUSTRATED ZIONIST - YEAR END (2007) > by Bernard J. Shapiro > > Much has happened in the last year. It has not been a good year for > Zionism and the Jewish People. One could be optimistic and try to find the > bright side of what has been happening. I am forced by nature to tell the > truth in a realistic way. I am condemned to discuss harsh realities. > > Some of my reflections: > > 1. The growth of religious Zionism would save Israel, IF there were TIME > for it to take power. I fear that time is running out. > > When will the Nationalist Camp realize that we are "at war already" with a > PLO supported government that rules Israel? At what point will Israelis > realize that the CIVIL WAR they fear, IS ALREADY TAKING PLACE AND THEY ARE > LOSING? Why don't members of the Nationalist Camp understand that FORCE is > being used by only ONE side which is the extremist pro-Arab anti-Semitic > government. The monopoly on power must be broken or there is NO hope. > > 2. Appeals for aliyah to Israel are a joke. Sounds harsh and non-Zionist. > I understand that. Let me make something "perfectly clear" as US President > Richard Nixon used to say. As long as Israel is ruled by anti-Semites, who > are more interested in protecting the Arab "right" to kill Jews, don't > expect huge waves of aliyah. As long as the police, courts, Shin Bet, media > continue to defame and persecute TRUE ZIONISTS, don't expect huge waves of > immigration. As long as Land in Israel is controlled by the government (and > the pro-Arab JNF) to the neglect of Jewish couples wanting to build > affordable housing, don't expect a huge wave of immigration. As long as the > IDF is used as a political tool to suppress freedom of speech and the G-d > given right of the Jewish People to settle Eretz Yisrael, don't expect a > huge wave of aliyah. As long as the bureaucracy in the Israel government > ministries discourages individual enterprise, there will be no massive wave > of immigration. > > 3. Israel's military/strategic policy as been on a sharp decline since the > days of Former Israeli Pm Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin. When Israel agreed > to allow the PLO to escape Beirut after the First Lebanon War in 1982, the > decline began in earnest. The Freeman Center strategy would have been to > agree to let them leave on ships that would have an "accident" en route > killing all aboard. > Israel has, without a doubt, the best military in world. The Israel > Defense Forces are quite capable of achieving any objective the Israeli > government puts before it. The soldiers of the IDF are brave, patriotic and > exceptionally well trained and equipped. Unfortunately Israel's political > leadership is confused, inept and lacking in Zionist motivation. > > Israel has been unable to stop the War of Extermination against it, > because it lacks the political will to do what is necessary. The current > campaign to secure the release of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, the captured IDF > soldier, illustrates this fact. The Israeli government has given the > military very limited objectives, primarily the release of the soldier. > Proper strategic planning would use the sad situation of Shalit's capture to > achieve a number of far reaching and important objectives. > > Already Olmert has done several things that prevent the accomplishment of > these aims. He has stopped the offensive in Gaza to allow time for > negotiations to release Shalit. He has allowed Israel's enemy, Egypt, to > intervene, and given the terrorists time to re-group and make demands. > > The Israeli objectives should be: > > 1. The release of the soldier. > > 2. Elimination of the terrorist leadership in the PA. > > 3. Item #2 means successfully destroying the newly elected Hamas > government. > > 4. Immediate annexation of all territory in Judea and Samaria that has > strategic and religious value (which means all). > > 5. Withdraw citizenship and voting rights from Israeli Arabs who support > terrorism against the State of Israel(which means most). > > 6. Create municipal councils but not sovereignty for Arab cities in the > newly annexed areas. > > 7. Encourage Arab emigration by strict enforcement of taxes, building > permits, national service requirements, and by providing funds to aid in > emigration. > > 8. Dramatically increase Jewish immigration to Israel by reducing taxes > and regulations on business. Immigration will soar once the lands of Judea > and Samaria are opened up for massive Jewish settlement. > > 9. The Zionist/Jewish character of Israel must be affirmed and the cost of > Jewish blood must rise dramatically as the government develops a zero > tolerance for terrorism. > > All of the above objectives are achievable. It is my hope that the Olmert > government will be replaced soon with a new Zionist government committed to > the objectives I have listed above. > > 10. The policy of restraint may have been practical during the pre-state > days and even during the! early years of Israeli independence. These periods > were characterized by weakness and relative dependence on foreign goodwill. > Following the Six Day War in 1967, the need for restraint (havlagah) > decreased and the damage it caused began to become more evident. Israel > became the preeminent power in the Middle East, yet failed to grasp the > strategic opportunities that came with such dominance. Here are some of the > historical highlights of the failed policy of restraint: > > 1. Following the Six Day War (1967) and the capture of Jerusalem, Moshe > Dayan turned over control of Judaism's most sacred place, the Temple Mount, > to Moslem authorities. He did it to appease their sensibilities to the > Israeli capture of the city. Jewish rights were ignored to please the > defeated Arabs, who had plotted our destruction. Dayan also prevented a mass > exodus of Arabs from YESHA, which ultimately led to the problems we face > today. > > 2. During the War of Attrition with Egypt (1969-70), the Israeli forces > adopted primarily a defensive posture. They built a system of bunkers (The > Bar Lev Line) along the Suez Canal. Israeli soldiers were heavily pounded > daily by Egyptian artillery. Finally they began to use aircraft to strike > targets deep into Egypt. The policy of restraint kept them from striking > anything but military and minor economic targets. Israeli soldiers died > because the government was inhibited from causing Egypt 'real' pain. > > 3. The Yom Kippur War of 1973 is a classic example of restraint run amok. > Israeli military intelligence did not fail to recognize the approaching > danger as has been the common account. In fact, Israel's leaders made the > political decision not to utilize the great power of the IDF to crush the > Egyptian and Syrian armies that they KNEW were planning to attack. Thousands > of Israeli soldiers died needlessly. > > 4. The Camp David Accord with Egypt was another example of the failure to > exert Israeli power. The oil fields of Sinai would have given Israel > economic independence from America. The cost of redeployment from Sinai > placed Israel in almost permanent debt to American diplomacy (increasingly > pro-Arab). Did Israel achieve anything worthwhile at Camp David? I think not > and I believe history will bear me out. Egypt has become one of the most > ant-Semitic and hostile Arab countries in the world. As a result of Camp > David, the Egyptian army now threatens Israel, having been equipped with the > most modern American weapons. > > 5. During the War in Lebanon (1982), the IDF reached Beirut and then > failed to complete the destruction of the PLO. Our enemies were allowed to > escape and prepare to fight another day. Why didn't the Israeli Navy sink > the ships loaded with PLO troops (including Arafat) as they fled Beirut? > RESTRAINT! > > 6. In 1987 the intifada began and the Israeli forces showed great > restraint and thus were incapable of crushing it. Of course, Israel received > no credit in the Western media for such restraint. The failure to defeat > this uprising began a process of demoralization among the Israeli > population. > > 7. The Persian Gulf War (1991) and the SCUD attacks on Israel led to > further demoralization. The failure to adequately respond to Iraq's > aggression and the humiliating sealed rooms, led to a rapid decline in > Israeli morale and desire to defend itself. More and more Israelis began to > feel impotent, weak and fatigued with the continuous battle for survival. > The Oslo Accords were the logical outcome of this depression and feeling > that they could not sustain the struggle. > > 8. The Oslo Accords (1993) were the ultimate failure of the policy of > restraint. Israel like America actually was very powerful. The IDF was > unequaled in the Middle East while the US was the most powerful nation in > the world. Yet despite this power, Israel's leaders, were ready to grant > equal status to a band of murderers and ultimately create a state of > "Palestine" which would challenge its right to the Land and its capital of > Jerusalem. > > 9. Israeli forces in Lebanon should have been given a free hand to > 'punish' all those who facilitate attacks on them including Syria, Lebanon, > and Iran. There should be no more agreements that tie Israeli hands. > > The damage caused by havlagah (restraint) has been immense and it far past > time to reverse that policy. Americans have been viciously attacked in > Africa, Yeman, and Saudi Arabia. The attempt to try to criminalize terrorism > has been a dreadful mistake. Terrorism is sponsored by states who allow > their territory and funds to help the organization of terrorist. The Oslo > agreement allowed Arafat to set up terrorist headquarters in Israel's > heartland. From there he sent terrorists to attack Israel. With plausible > deniability he claims "he is not responsible." > > 12 THINGS I AM SICK AND TIRED OF: > > 1. I am sick and tired of the slowly escalating actions of the IDF to > fight terrorism. > > The slow escalation allows PA terrorism to become immune to Israel's > strategy. It allows them to smuggle more guns, missiles, mortars and > anti-aircraft missiles into PA territory. This is much the same as with > bacterial infections. If the antibiotic is not strong enough to eliminate > it, then the disease will return in a much more virulent form. I would > suggest that the IDF launch a massive offensive against the terrorists until > victory. > > 2. I am sick and tired of the Israeli government's fear of collateral > damage to the enemy. > > The Arabs have no such qualms. In fact they target civilians in bestial > suicide and rocket attacks. PA weapons factories, weapons storage depots and > bomb making facilities should be blasted off the face of earth even if it > causes civilian casualties. Remember that "he who is merciful to the cruel, > will end up being cruel to the merciful." > > Also remember that the US Civil War, WWI and WWII were won by the massive > inflection of casualties on the enemies's civilian populations. > > 3. I am sick and tired of Israeli PM Olmert's policy of restraint. > The adjustment to accepting the killing of Jews is an abomination. A Jew > here or there murdered daily, pretty soon adds up to a lot of dead and > maimed Jews. I remember when the Al Aksa terror on Israel began in September > 2000, the IDF general staff opened a file called "Operation Thorns", a plan > for the retaking of the PA areas. They estimated Israeli dead at 300. Since > then there have been almost 1500 Jews killed, which is five times the > estimated combat deaths (plus 10,000 wounded, many maimed for life), with no > apparent consequences to the terrorists' ability to inflict casualties on > Israel. > > There is one extremely important variable. The PA (especially in Gaza) has > used the last six years to build bunkers, firing positions, smuggle in heavy > weapons and missiles, create an underground arms industry and organize an > army of 100,000. The defeat of PA now would certainly be more costly. And it > will grow with time. There is a very short window of time to defeat the PA > terrorists with minimal losses. Many political analysts and military experts > agree that Israel must take decisive action NOW. > > 4. I am sick and tired of the US State Department urging Israel to show > "restraint." > > Despite the fact that the CIA knows exactly WHO (PA) is attacking WHOM > (Israel) the State Department continues call for a stop to the "cycle of > violence." Whenever Israel is attacked viciously, there is rush to tell > Israel "to turn the other cheek". Are we Christians or Jews? Does American > follow the Christian policy expected of Israel? > > 5. I am sick and tired of Shimon Peres trying to arrange another > appeasement for the PA. > > He claims to be seeking a cease fire and a return to negotiations. Let me > be honest with you. I don't want negotiations with either Hamas, Abbas or > Assad. I want to crush them and their terrorist gangs. > > 6. I am sick and tired of the continued UN presence within the borders of > Israel. > > It's time to remove them and assert Israel's sovereignty. Israel should > work to have the world withdraw its recognition of Arab refugee camps and > refugees. It should condemn the hypocritical treatment of the Arab countries > in exploiting these people for political purposes. Israel should declare in > a strong voice that there are NO refugees. That status is not permanent and > obviously should not apply to people living in the same place for 58 years. > > 7. I am sick and tired of the international boycott of Jerusalem as > Israel's capital. > > Israel should unilaterally announce to the nations of the world that all > embassies MUST be in Jerusalem. (Consulates may be in Tel Aviv or any other > place they want). Israel will no longer permit its eternal capital to be > disrespected. > > 8. I am sick and tired that under both Labor and Likud governments, Arutz > Sheva, Israel National Radio, has not been fully legalized. > > Whatever happened to freedom of speech? Arutz Sheva should not only be > allowed to establish facilities on land but also a television channel. I am > also sick and tired of government television being controlled and dominated > by the extreme left that does not represent the Israeli public. A lot of the > time they represent the Arabs and not Israelis. > > 9. I am sick and tired of Israel's trying to be 'Mister Nice Guy' to a > hypocritical world. > > Europeans are increasingly comparing Israel to the Nazis. Over half of all > the resolutions of the UN since its founding have been directed against > Israel. At the conference on how to condemn Israel in Durban, South Africa, > UN head Kofi Anan condemned Israel for existing. In fact, at a recent > meeting at the UN, there was a map of "Palestine", which included all of > Israel. The Arab world openly plots the destruction of Israel. I am sick and > tired of the vilification of "settlers". > > 10. I am sick and tired of Israel tolerating Moslem restrictions and > desecrations on the Temple Mount. > > The excuse that it would cause violence to exercise our rights there is > absurd. Israel has the capability to enforce security. Virtually everything > Israel wants do in the Land of Israel displeases the Arabs, who want us to > leave. Jews should be allowed to pray on the Temple Mount and the > destruction of Jewish antiquities by the Moslem waqf needs to be stopped > immediately. > > 11. I am sick and tired of PA demonstrations of the fierceness of their > terrorists and how they will destroy Israel. > > Why not knock off a bunch of them during their demonstrations? Maybe they > would be more circumspect. > > 12. And most important, the IDF and police should never be used for > political purposes. Their purpose is to protect Israelis and not to expel > them from their homes or persecute them. > > ========== > I DO believe that we will defeat our current adversaries. We will succeed > and survive from three sources of our strength: Love of Tanach (Torah), Love > of Eretz Israel (Land of Israel, and Love of Am Yisrael (People of Israel). > > .......In blood and fire was Israel born, and on a hot anvil was she > forged. Her youth understood that life in the new Jewish homeland would > require sacrifice. With stories of the stench of burning flesh from the > ovens of Auschwitz embedded deep in their psyches, the young Israeli > soldiers fight with the firm conviction that there is still no alternative, > "ein breira." (From personal diary1992). > > To that I would like add something the American soldiers used to say > during the heaviest fighting in Viet Nam. This is dedicated (slightly > revised) to the brave IDF soldiers who face the enemy every day: Yea, though > I walk through the Valley of Death, I will fear no evil because the Almighty > fights with me for the Restoration of Zion and for love of HIS people, > Israel. > > .......And for the Jews of YESHA, I believe that He will NOT allow Olmert > to expel them from the heartland of ERETZ YISRAEL. But remember, the Lor-d > helps those who help themselves. Do not wait for a miracle -- BE THE > MIRACLE! > > ========= > Bernard J. Shapiro is the Chairman of the Freeman Center For Strategic > Studies and Editor of its publications including THE MACCABEAN ONLINE and > THE FREEMANLIST. > > > ------------------------------ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail > ! > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/ec42a52d/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 23:12:13 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:12:13 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Road Map to Peace moving forward In-Reply-To: <200801142217.m0EMH5O25626@sm7.donationnet.net> References: <200801142217.m0EMH5O25626@sm7.donationnet.net> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801142112k307c849br9a7174eac868f08d@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jerusalem Prayer Team Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:17:05 UT Subject: Road Map to Peace moving forward To: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com I am outraged and you should be also. President Bush is in Saudi Arabia. He has just agreed to sell the Saudis $20 billion worth of military equipment. This is the same country that refused to recognize Israel's right to exist, the same country that will not allow one Jew to set foot on its soil. I was completely outraged when I heard that Ehud Olmert, whom I have known for 26 years, stood next to President Bush and declared that he would work to fulfill the final status solution to the Road Map to Peace. In essence, this means the division of Jerusalem (with all Christian Holy Sites being under Islamic rule of law) and Judea and Samaria turned over to the Palestinians. This is outrageous. These are terrorist organizations. As this absurd ceremony was going on, they were singing; they had music playing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow." The only rainbow that I believe in is the rainbow at the time of Noah. God made the covenant that He would never again destroy the world with a flood. God's word says *I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee*. America must not touch prophecy. The nation of Israel was born by a royal land grant given by God Almighty. It was birthed before there was a United States or a United Nations. All nations were only pagan nations at that time. Presently we have 119,000 who have signed the Save Jerusalem Petition. Do you realize that the U.S. Government is shuttling around with almost a dozen Arab states that refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist and, in fact, fund terrorists to kill Jews? It's outrageous! Please, get one friend today to sign the Save Jerusalem Petition. This will double the number. Our ultimate goal is one million, but our goal right now is to reach 200,000. Pray today that the Lord will help us with this and that every Jerusalem Prayer Member will get one friend to respondin the next 24 hours. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the State Department is going to push this through if we remain silent. If it happens, God's hand of protection will be lifted from our country in a way that we couldn't possibly have imagined. I will not allow that to happen. I will do everything in my power to resist that. I'm asking for every Jerusalem Prayer Team Member to pray and ask just one friend today to sign the Petition . If people do as the Prophet Daniel declared, the people that do know their God shall be strong and do exploits. This is a battle between light and darkness, a battle between politics and prophecy. *Thank you for responding today. * *To read the Jerusalem World News, click here: www.myjwn.com* ------------------------------ Join the Jerusalem Prayer Team Now! Do not reply to this email. Please address email inquiries to jpteam at sbcglobal.net Jerusalem Prayer Team P.O. Box 210489 Bedford, TX 76095 FAX: 817-285-0962 1-800-825-3872 http://jerusalemprayerteam.org Dr. Tim LaHaye, Mrs. Anne Graham Lotz, Mr. Pat Boone, Mr. Bill McCartney, Ms. Kay Arthur, Rev. Tommy Tenney, Dr. A.R. Bernard, and Dr. Jay Sekulow are just a few of the more than 300 Christian Leaders who are part of the Jerusalem Prayer Team. The Jerusalem Prayer Team is a non-profit organization with 501c3 tax exempt status. The Jerusalem Prayer Team is a prayer movement of people around the world. It is a non-denominational organization. It receives no support from the Nation of Israel. Donations are tax deductible. The mission of the Jerusalem Prayer Team: To guard, defend and protect the Jewish people and Eretz Yisrael until Israel is secure, and until the Redeemer comes to Zion. How do I discontinue my membership/subscription to this e-mail list? Do not respond to this e-mail for any reason. To discontinue your membership automatically please, follow the link below. You joined this list as Kim Alvarado at the following e-mail address: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com. You must use the correct e-mail address to discontinue your membership. If you experience any technical problems and/or do not receive confirmation that your request has been completed online, please postal mail, phone or fax your request using the contact information listed above. Your request will be processed within 10 days of the receipt of your request. ------------------------------ HOW CAN I SUPPORT YOUR ORGANIZATION? Make a secure online credit card donation. ------------------------------ HOW CAN I TELL OTHERS ABOUT YOUR ORGANIZATION? Send a personalized version of this message to your friends. Discontinue your subscription. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080114/3b47f0b6/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Jan 15 04:23:49 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:23:49 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2 In-Reply-To: <012d01c85650$cc2b2090$6700a8c0@davesbook> References: <012d01c85650$cc2b2090$6700a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <200801151023.m0FANhJV025025@mail2535.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/488e747f/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 15 06:27:34 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:27:34 EST Subject: [Dialogue] article - "Reflections of a Frustrated Zionist" Message-ID: Hey Kim - Yeah, what IS wrong with a government that agrees to accept 50,000 "Arab refugees" back into its borders, that they are voluntarily shrinking, just to maintain a "Jewish majority." This, of course, is after having let into Israel 300,000 Gentile (Jew hating) Russians in the 1990's because they allegedly had ONE Jewish grandparent....these are the guys you see in the Israeli news with swastikas tattooed to their Jew-hating bodies....sighhhhhh.... But now you see why I picked those three words from the Torah as my favorite pasuk (verse) - "Ma Titzak alai?" 'Why do we cry out' (to HaShem)....we KNOW what we need to do... Sorry....I'm already "heated up" this cold morning! B'Ahavat HaMoledet (with love of the Homeland), Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/ec9072d4/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 15 06:31:02 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:31:02 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Road Map to Peace moving forward Message-ID: Thanks for forwarding this Kim! Prayer is the single most important thing we can all do....we can all afford.....and it doesn't even require a current passport? Kim - have you also posted this to the UIWU list? Have a great day!! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/f672cfc3/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 15 06:36:12 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:36:12 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Quote from Mishlei (Proverbs) Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah A gentle answer turns away wrath; but a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise uses knowledge correctly; but the mouth of fools pours out foolishness. Proverbs 15:1-2 **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/ff3732e9/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 15 06:53:39 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:53:39 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2 Message-ID: Hey Steve - WOW!!!! This is SUCH great stuff - can't I persuade you to cross post this on the UIWU list?? And/or edit it for the UIWU website?? :-) Pretty please? LOL It IS amazing stuff.....please share it. B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/85777101/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Tue Jan 15 09:26:09 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:26:09 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2 References: Message-ID: <00b901c8578a$f48e9ef0$6700a8c0@davesbook> WOW x2.....(acutualy adding kim,Pat,Betty,Leorah,Hanoch...and ALL on this list.....WOW x75?) (((wheres waldo? ross))) I for one REALLY appreciate the timely responses to my quest. At the moment I am praying for the time and ability to voice through e-mail, my thoughts on this subject. I am convinced that collectively we can advance down this path because of our (this list) willingness to expose our ideas and knowledge on this subject. I am comfortable being on the 'cutting edge' and look forward to the dialogue that is being generated. I haven't been able to respond to every reply and I want each of you guys that have shared to know that I cherish the fact that we are all on the same 'page'. forgive me for not posting more on this subject now.....as I must go 'herd cats'.....(the job) dave ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:53 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2 Hey Steve - WOW!!!! This is SUCH great stuff - can't I persuade you to cross post this on the UIWU list?? And/or edit it for the UIWU website?? :-) Pretty please? LOL It IS amazing stuff.....please share it. B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/256d4127/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 09:49:12 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:49:12 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2 / Dave In-Reply-To: <00b901c8578a$f48e9ef0$6700a8c0@davesbook> References: <00b901c8578a$f48e9ef0$6700a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: With you, Dave! Together, as a group, we can explore and find the way to "unite our heart" with our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We can retrace our steps. by which we went into captivity in the first place, and find our way Home to HaShem. I think you've started one of our best "Threads" yet. Thank you so much! Pat From: dhcole1 at cox.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:26:09 -0600 WOW x2.....(acutualy adding kim,Pat,Betty,Leorah,Hanoch...and ALL on this list.....WOW x75?) (((wheres waldo? ross))) I for one REALLY appreciate the timely responses to my quest. At the moment I am praying for the time and ability to voice through e-mail, my thoughts on this subject. I am convinced that collectively we can advance down this path because of our (this list) willingness to expose our ideas and knowledge on this subject. I am comfortable being on the 'cutting edge' and look forward to the dialogue that is being generated. I haven't been able to respond to every reply and I want each of you guys that have shared to know that I cherish the fact that we are all on the same 'page'. forgive me for not posting more on this subject now.....as I must go 'herd cats'.....(the job) dave ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:53 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2 Hey Steve - WOW!!!! This is SUCH great stuff - can't I persuade you to cross post this on the UIWU list?? And/or edit it for the UIWU website?? :-) Pretty please? LOL It IS amazing stuff.....please share it. B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/7601e037/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 12:50:32 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:50:32 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Road Map to Peace moving forward In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801151050i231000e1kdcd0b682ad2ad848@mail.gmail.com> No, but will do. Should have thought of it before. Kim On Jan 15, 2008 6:31 AM, wrote: > Thanks for forwarding this Kim! Prayer is the single most important > thing we can all do....we can all afford.....and it doesn't even require a > current passport? > > Kim - have you also posted this to the UIWU list? > > Have a great day!! > > B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, > * Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah* > > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/932adeae/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 12:53:54 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:53:54 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2 / Dave In-Reply-To: References: <00b901c8578a$f48e9ef0$6700a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801151053t27c58a32x90e11db97f3fe251@mail.gmail.com> Thank you Dave for starting this thread and sharing your thought, feelings, etc. with us. Thank you Steve for all the gold mine of information you have given us here. I've just scanned it all quickly, but I making time to go over it in depth. Kim On Jan 15, 2008 9:49 AM, patricia robbins wrote: > With you, Dave! Together, as a group, we can explore and find the way to > "unite our heart" with our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We can > retrace our steps. by which we went into captivity in the first place, and > find our way Home to HaShem. I think you've started one of our best > "Threads" yet. Thank you so much! > > Pat > > > ------------------------------ > From: dhcole1 at cox.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2 > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:26:09 -0600 > > WOW x2.....(acutualy adding kim,Pat,Betty,Leorah,Hanoch...and ALL on this > list.....WOW x75?) > *(((wheres > waldo? ross)))* > ** > I for one REALLY appreciate the timely responses to my quest. At the > moment I am praying for the time and ability to voice through e-mail, my > thoughts on this subject. I am convinced that collectively we can advance > down this path because of our (this list) willingness to expose our ideas > and knowledge on this subject. I am comfortable being on the 'cutting > edge' and look forward to the dialogue that is being generated. > > I haven't been able to respond to every reply and I want each of you guys > that have shared to know that I cherish the fact that we are all on the same > 'page'. > > > forgive me for not posting more on this subject now.....as I must go 'herd > cats'.....(the job) > dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:53 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2 > > Hey Steve - > > WOW!!!! This is SUCH great stuff - can't I persuade you to cross post > this on the UIWU list?? And/or edit it for the UIWU website?? :-) Pretty > please? LOL It IS amazing stuff.....please share it. > > B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, > * Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah* > > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > ------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/cf16d6f1/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Jan 15 13:02:52 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:02:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Just for laughs! Message-ID: <004301c857a9$3c706eb0$0200a8c0@marvin> We all need a good laugh and these are enjoyable. They are from a book titled Little Wonders by Mary Hollingsworth who says: One of our favorite jobs has been leading junior church. We try to do more than baby-sit our church's beloved little ankle-biters during their time in our special junior church facility. We aim to give them a solid background in biblical history. At the end of each year, we give them pencils and paper and ask them to chronicle what they have learned. This assignment never fails to elicit some intriguing responses. In case you're a little foggy on your biblical history, let our junior church students help you with this complete overview of the Bible, compiled from their essays: In the beginning, which occurred near the start, there was nothing but God, darkness,and some gas. The Bible says, "The Lord thy God is one," but I think He must be a lot older than that. Anyway, God said, "Give me a light!" and someone did. Then God made the world. He split the Adam and made Eve. Adam and Eve were naked, but they weren't embarrassed because mirrors hadn't been invented yet. Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating one bad apple, so they were driven from the Garden of Eden. Not sure what they were driven in though, because they didn't have cars. Adam and Eve had a son, Cain, who hated his brother as long as he was Abel. Pretty soon all of the early people died off, except for Methuselah, who lived to be like a million or something. One of the next important people was Noah, who was a good guy, but one of his kids was kind of a ham. Noah built a large boat and put his family and some animals on it. He asked some other people to join him, but they said they would have to take a rain check. After Noah came Abraham , Isaac, and Jacob. Jacob was more famous than his brother, Esau, because Esau sold Jacob his birthmark in exchange for some pot roast. Jacob had a son named Joseph who wore a really loud sports coat. Another important Bible guy is Moses, whose real name was Charlton Heston. Moses led the Israel Lights out of Egypt and away from the evil Pharaoh after God sent ten plagues on Pharaoh's people. These plagues included frogs, mice, lice, bowels, and no cable. God fed the Israel Lights every day with manicotti. Then He gave them Hi s top ten Commandments. These include don't lie, cheat, smoke, dance, or covet your neighbor's bottom (the Bible uses a bad word for bottom that I'm not supposed to say. But my Dad uses it sometimes when he talks about the President). Oh, yeah, I just thought of one more: Humor they father and they mother. One of Moses' best helpers was Joshua who was the first Bible guy to use spies. Joshua fought the battle of Geritol and the fence fell over on the town. After Joshua came David. He got to be king by killing a giant with a slingshot. He had a son named Solomon who had about 300 wives and 500 porcupines. My teacher says he was wise, but that doesn't sound very wise to me. After Solomon there were a bunch of major league prophets. One of these was Jonah, who was swallowed by a big whale and then barfed up on the shore. There were also some minor league prophets, but I guess we don't have to worry about them. After the Old Testament came the New Testament. Jesus is the star of the New Testament. He was born in Bethlehem in a barn. (I wish I had been born in a barn, too, because my mom is always saying to me, "Close the door! Were you born in a barn" It would be nice to say, "As a matter of fact, I was.") During His life, Jesus had many arguments with sinners like the Pharisees and the Republicans. Jesus also had twelve opossums. The worst one was Judas Asparagus. Judas was so evil that they named a terrible vegetable after him. Jesus was a great man. He healed many leopards and even preached to some Germans on the Mount. But the Republicans and all those guys put Jesus on trial before Pontius the Pilot. Pilot didn't stick up for Jesus. He just washed his hands instead. Anyways, Jesus died for our sins, then came back to life again. He went up to Heaven but will be back at the end of the Aluminum . His return is foretold in the book of Revolution. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/297bb0e6/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 15 15:52:36 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:52:36 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Road Map to Peace moving forward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <014f01c857c0$f0d000c0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Yes, absolutely! When you go to the site, there are several items to vote on which I did. I tried to vote again, but it was blocked.alas, only one vote per customer. It only takes a few minutes of your time. I would strongly recommend that all you love G-d, Torah and Israel and the people, please check out the website and vote. Link is at the bottom of Kim's forwarded post! Every vote counts! Shalom and Blessings to you all, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fwd: Road Map to Peace moving forward Thanks for forwarding this Kim! Prayer is the single most important thing we can all do....we can all afford.....and it doesn't even require a current passport? Kim - have you also posted this to the UIWU list? Have a great day!! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/ef5f4bb3/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 17:59:49 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:59:49 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2 / Steve Message-ID: Steve, you always inspire us! It's so interesting that you relate Rachel's weeping in Ramah, with Devorah, the prophetess. I really believe you are correct in saying that her weeping is prophetic. Seems it has to be, since she died before Joseph was sold by his brothers. She couldn't have known in the natural, that he, much less his descendants, would one day be missing. She intercedes prophetically for her children - for us. That's so beautiful! May that powerful spirit of intercession come upon our group too, as we pray for her missing children to come home to HaShem. Pat Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:23:49 -0800To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgFrom: eliasaph at uniteourheart.comSubject: Re: [Dialogue] Dave's world / Answers, part # 2Dave and All, Here are some more ideas on your queries that come to mind. The previous Answers #1, are off the top of my head, not very well organized, and am sure have great big gaps in them and are by no means adequate for publication. However, I will take your suggestion, and will see if it can be developed into some kind of study material for the curious and the perplexed, but most of all for those who are being "called," to the "resurrection that we are experiencing. Why? because the Ten Tribes coming to life from the Valley of Dry Bones is just that, a resurrection from the dead. This is why Rachel is weeping at Ramah, "for her children,.... they were not," Jer. 31.15. It is important to note here, that Ramah was the seat of Devorah the prophetess. As such the place may be indicative of a "prophetic" weeping, with great "prophetic" meaning, if we note that Rachel was the mother of Yosef, who disappeared from the world scene, and the [multitude of children from Yosef "were not" to be around." The were not to be seen by anyone, not even their mother, for all were blinded to their identity, and their names were erased from under the heavens. This passage has been used by Jews homileticly, referring to the victims of the Holocaust. Why all references can be used homiletically to apply to any number of ideas, few have any grasp of the "prophetic" portent of this verse, which is its main purpose for being written. Unfortunately, in many circles, if the prophets re studied at all, they are studied for their literary qualities, e.g. style and poetry, perhaps for its "wisdom," and of course "critically," as to how they can be ascribed to diverse sources and redactors. Among Jews, practically no one studies the Prophets in Yeshivas, collels, (adult study organizations) or in synagogues. In fact, no one preaches from them. For these reasons, it seems to me, that we are already "doomed" as George Santayana's maxim says: "Those that don't study history are doomed to repeat it...." Our "learning," as a people, is still ahead. As a people, we have not yet learned "the quintessential lesson." We are asleep, and are signing "covenants of death" with our enemies and murderers. Yet, by the mercies of God, some, "the first contingent to arise out of the Valley of Dry Bones, is being called to finally learn that lesson NOW, and become pioneers, blazing a trail of return. They are "called out" to be servants in the "Work of Eli-Yah, (Isa. 40:3, 21). They have the Torah sealed in their hearts, (Isa. 51:7), which resonates to God's call. As one that feels a slight draw to the land, but not sure I would be received, except maybe as a stranger living in the land. My guess is there would be some sort of resentment because they would naturally say "we have always been about keeping the 'way' " (ref. Luke chapter 15). I know I need to do further research into the Lost Tribe idea......although I did do some preliminary searching several years ago. So I understand the concept of those that aren't even aware that they are possible 'brothers', thus the slight tug that I cant explain. That mysterious, unexplainable "slight draw and tug" that many have felt in the beginning of their "process" of awakening, can be indicative that what we feel in our "hearts" is the primordial connection" in the heart, in our very souls to Israel, and what she stands for her God. Somehow, we 'know" that "the veil of not knowing" is removed by the Divine Hand. It is often as Dave testifies, "what I felt deep down in my spirit." This "draw and tug" of the heart to things "Jewish," Hebrew," Old Testament, and "the Land," often becomes stronger and stronger as more knowledge is gathered by our intellects. When the link-up is made between these two means of "knowing," we start realizing who we are. We then start thinking about what we ought to do. This is the "work of Eli-Yah," restoring / uniting our separated and split heart to the heart of the Fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is "the reunification of the one heart /soul" that must come first, before we, the separated wife, (Aholah) have any other reunification with the the Fathers' other descendants, the Jews, who have not lost their name durirng history. When this reunification of the two houses of Israel will come, (Jer. 33:14,24, Zech. 8:13), Jacob, the publicly acknowledged "father of the Jews," speaking here figuratively for all the Jews, will say: "Who are these?" (Isa. 49:21). Jacob's publicly acknowledged descendants, the Jews, will not know the prophecies of the blessings of Jacob, that Joseph's publicly unknown descendants from Menashe will have become the single most powerful nation that ever existed, and their brethren, sons of Ephraim, the greatest commonwealth of nations, on whose possessions "the sun never set," (Gen, 48:19, 49:22). Neither will they know about the promises to Abraham, that his descendants will grow into multitudes in the earth, (Gen.48:16). Had they known, the few Jews who are presently looking for the so-called "Lost Tribes" would not be looking for small, powerless, and often pitifully miserable groups of people in the Far East. They would be looking for powerful nations in the WEST, who have pushed the nations of the world around with their powerful economic, cultural and military "horns," (Gen. 33:17). They will then realize, that Joseph's separation then was a type for what would happen to them later, (Gen. 49:26), was for the "preservation of Israel," and it was for their "good," (Gen. 50:20, I Kings 12:24, Deut. 23:5, II Chron. 11:4). Truly, as Dave has said, "If you want to know the future, look at the past. " This is so true, for Jacob has already said once before of Joseph's children, "Who are these?" (Gen. 48:8). Because of these prophecies, it is unlikely, that Jews in the main will know, except toward the end of "Jacob's trouble" where the Ten Tribes are, or that they could expect them to come back, much less welcome them back. Of course there will be a few, e.g. Hanoch, Yair Davidy, but it does not look like they will be speaking for all. Even as a lad I can remember in the church Bible classes (southern Baptist) asking about the 'chosen' and getting the stock answers that just didn't seem to make sense.....such as "Dad chose number 1 son.....but since "the Jews" didn't accept Jesus, that now it is open for every one". I can remember that it just didn't line up to what I felt deep down in my spirit. So....I know that others that have walked in my shoes can relate to the frustration of trying to make it all fit, and I have been watching this dialogue emerge with requests of suggestions on how to reach out to others that may or may not feel the pull......so how does this help in considering where each of us got to where we are with each other and what difference does it make? well if we are to have a workable reason for this dialogue, understanding and getting to know each other and learning how to relate from our different areas of approach (like an airport with planes landing from all different directions). AND then traveling down a given path together, learning trust and acceptance, tolerance and cooperation, patience and the 'L' word......Love. This is what Jacob, our father, as he was dying, has commended us to do in the last days. In Gen 49:1, he told his twelve sons to assemble then and there, to hear important prophecies about the end of days. In Gen 49:2, the first instruction he gives them to do "at the end of days" is: "Assemble yourselves together," (Gen. 49:2). This is reinforced by Isa. 45:20; we are to "gather together," to "draw near," and gain knowledge of God, that we could not do in our Baptist, Lutheran, and other "churches." God is very explicit here. This is exactly what Elijah told the paganized Israelites in the Northern Kingdom, to "come near" (I Kings. 18:21). They were worshipping the God of Abraham, and pagan gods added in the "churches of their day." This is the reason why the Torah's instructions to not mix certain things were given to Israel. They were told to choose, and stop limping between "two opinions," (I Kings 18:21). Only then will our names be restored, (I Kings 18:31). For now we are to humble ourselves and prepare our hearts to seek and "meet" God at this time of renewal and restoration, (II Chron. 30:19, 22, Amos 4:12 ), confessing our sins and the sins of our fathers, and realize that the call of the remnant who returns is upon us: Isa. 10:19-22. We are to stand in for others, and pray that God will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph," (Amos. 5:15). What I ask all those who read this is to IMMEDIATELY upon reading the above, TALK TO GOD ABOUT THESE THINGS, and ask God to talk to YOUR HEART about these things, to confirm them to you and /or correct them, so that we may all profit. THIS IS THE auspicious time to do it. Do it NOW !!That is it for now. Stay tuned for Answers, Part # 3. Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/0e033357/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 18:37:16 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:37:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Just for laughs! In-Reply-To: <004301c857a9$3c706eb0$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <004301c857a9$3c706eb0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Very cute! Thank you, Marvin. From: mhyde7 at tds.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:02:52 -0500Subject: [Dialogue] Just for laughs! We all need a good laugh and these are enjoyable. They are from a book titled Little Wonders by Mary Hollingsworth who says:One of our favorite jobs has been leading junior church. We try to do more than baby-sit our church's beloved little ankle-biters during their time in our special junior church facility. We aim to give them a solid background in biblical history. At the end of each year, we give them pencils and paper and ask them to chronicle what they have learned.This assignment never fails to elicit some intriguing responses. In case you're a little foggy on your biblical history, let our junior church students help you with this complete overview of the Bible, compiled from their essays:In the beginning, which occurred near the start, there was nothing but God, darkness,and some gas.The Bible says, "The Lord thy God is one," but I think He must be a lot older than that. Anyway, God said, "Give me a light!" and someone did. Then God made the world. He split the Adam and made Eve. Adam and Eve were naked, but they weren't embarrassed because mirrors hadn't been invented yet.Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating one bad apple, so they were driven from the Garden of Eden. Not sure what they were driven in though, because they didn't have cars.Adam and Eve had a son, Cain, who hated his brother as long as he was Abel.Pretty soon all of the early people died off, except for Methuselah, who lived to be like a million or something. One of the next important people was Noah, who was a good guy, but one of his kids was kind of a ham. Noah built a large boat and put his family and some animals on it. He asked some other people to join him, but they said they would have to take a rain check.After Noah came Abraham , Isaac, and Jacob. Jacob was more famous than his brother, Esau, because Esau sold Jacob his birthmark in exchange for some pot roast. Jacob had a son named Joseph who wore a really loud sports coat.Another important Bible guy is Moses, whose real name was Charlton Heston. Moses led the Israel Lights out of Egypt and away from the evil Pharaoh after God sent ten plagues on Pharaoh's people. These plagues included frogs, mice, lice, bowels, and no cable. God fed the Israel Lights every day with manicotti.Then He gave them Hi s top ten Commandments. These include don't lie, cheat, smoke, dance, or covet your neighbor's bottom (the Bible uses a bad word for bottom that I'm not supposed to say. But my Dad uses it sometimes when he talks about the President). Oh, yeah, I just thought of one more: Humor they father and they mother.One of Moses' best helpers was Joshua who was the first Bible guy to use spies. Joshua fought the battle of Geritol and the fence fell over on the town. After Joshua came David. He got to be king by killing a giant with a slingshot. He had a son named Solomon who had about 300 wives and 500 porcupines. My teacher says he was wise, but that doesn't sound very wise to me.After Solomon there were a bunch of major league prophets. One of these was Jonah, who was swallowed by a big whale and then barfed up on the shore. There were also some minor league prophets, but I guess we don't have to worry about them.After the Old Testament came the New Testament. Jesus is the star of the New Testament. He was born in Bethlehem in a barn. (I wish I had been born in a barn, too, because my mom is always saying to me, "Close the door! Were you born in a barn" It would be nice to say, "As a matter of fact, I was.")During His life, Jesus had many arguments with sinners like the Pharisees and the Republicans. Jesus also had twelve opossums. The worst one was Judas Asparagus. Judas was so evil that they named a terrible vegetable after him. Jesus was a great man. He healed many leopards and even preached to some Germans on the Mount. But the Republicans and all those guys put Jesus on trial before Pontius the Pilot. Pilot didn't stick up for Jesus. He just washed his hands instead.Anyways, Jesus died for our sins, then came back to life again. He went up to Heaven but will be back at the end of the Aluminum . His return is foretold in the book of Revolution. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/5cb1aa96/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Tue Jan 15 20:05:16 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:05:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch/ The relative size of Israel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <25056.29328.qm@web37513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Amen Hanoch....from the river of Egypt to the Plains of Shinar.Yep, that's Iraq! Paul YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Dear Betty - HaShem is indeed calling us home....and that current small piece of land (that Olmert & Bush want to put under foreign control - G-d forbid) is just temporary. We all KNOW that those are not the promised borders of Eretz Yisrael (see the Roots of Faith home page..) We all have much to prepare for - B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel/Ephraim), Hanoch --------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/4c8519a0/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 15 21:55:09 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:55:09 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Hanoch/ The relative size of Israel Message-ID: Hey Paul - Yep, one step at a time....it's all OURS.....given to us by HaShem.... Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080115/77aa29b2/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 16 13:40:24 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:40:24 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote from Proverbs Message-ID: <8CA268EC5F9B3C7-FF0-166C@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> Shalom Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), ??? Something else from Mishlei (Proverbs)... ?????????????? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Hashem has made every thing for His own purpose, yes, even the wicked for the day of evil. Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to Hashem; my hand upon him; he shall not be unpunished. ? Proverbs 16:4-5 ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080116/7623ec9f/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jan 17 05:48:19 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 06:48:19 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Torah & Prophecy Message-ID: Shalom v'Boker tov (good morning)! I've included part of Rav Ariel Bar Tzadok's article below - it's very thought provoking....His site is: _www.koshertorah.com_ (http://www.koshertorah.com/) if you want to check his articles and information further. But take a look at part of his recent article that I have included which has to do with Torah and prophecy....any comments? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah The lessons of the past are our warnings for the future. Indeed, those who have not learned from the lessons of the past are destined to repeat them. There really is nothing new under the sun. What has been will be again. The Egyptians lived in comfort and conceived security and it was all stripped away in a matter of months by a man named Moses. The peoples of Sodom and Gomorra also lived in peace and conceived security until one morning they did not wake up in their beds. They all were killed by some natural disaster, also known as the Hand of G-d. I guess we could also add to our examples the sudden explosion of the volcano, Mt. Vesuvius in ancient Italy. In a matter of minutes the secure and relatively happy life in the city of Pompeii came to an abrupt end. Many other such examples are recorded throughout history. Who then can be so arrogant to say that society today is so safe, so secure, and so strong, that nothing sudden will ever topple it? Such a view is ridiculous and delusional. It is actually also very dangerous. For the one who embraces delusional security will never see the real threats coming. They will overtake one and destroy his/her life and the individual will often never know what hit them. This is what happened to the Jews in Nazi Europe. Let me state here, that what I am writing is clearly a commentary on Biblical events. However, unlike many other Rabbis, I am not interested in sharing with you a story, or an embellished retelling of long ago history. I am not concerned with quoting to you the various opinions of other Rabbis or trying to impress you with my academic profundity and accomplishments. All these are not the way Torah was meant to be taught. These methods are nothing more than distractions blinding the eyes from seeing what the Torah is really all about and what it is saying to us today. Torah is not a history book. It is a warning. It is a psychological guide to the workings of humankind on the individual and societal basis. All the stories and embellishments are nice, but they can lull one into a sense of false security. One studies and walks away saying how nice it is that G-d is in control of everything and that whatever happens will be for the greater good, the end, amen. Now, this is, of course, true. However does anyone realize just how devastating such a conclusion can be on one's personal life? Usually it takes a personal tragedy for one to get the message that G-d is very much in control, for both good and evil. And yes, bad things do happen to good people, all the time. It is not haphazard, it is not random; it is absolutely by the Hand of Heaven, even if it happens through the little hands of big brother. Torah is an ancient warning for us in each and every generation. Mighty Pharaohs have been toppled in the past. Evil empires have risen and fallen; they conquer the Earth for a time and then after a few short years are lost to history and forgotten forever. As it was in the past, so will it be in the future. There is nothing new under the sun. What happened before will happen again. This is the great cycle of nature, as ordained by nature's Creator. Changes do come and they come suddenly, without much warning to individuals. Sometimes changes come in the form of natural disasters and sometimes in the guise of human behavior. Whatever it is, it is the Hand and Will of Heaven. Nations are devastated. Societies are ruined. Millions of lives are changed forever with just as many dying in the interim. And then, after the rumbling subsides, rebuilding occurs, the past is forgotten, stability is pursued and the illusion of its presence remains, at least until the next eruption of creationist evolution. Yes, this is a Biblical commentary. I am not telling you about the past, I am trying to warn you about the future, very possibly about something big, not too far off in time. I am no prophet, therefore I have no predictions. I cannot proclaim to you that this or that will happen, in such a place at this or that specific time. We do not have prophecy like this today. G-d took prophecy away from us a long time ago. It seems that G-d has already said to us everything that He has intended. All we need to know is written in His Torah and the Bible. All we need to know about the future we will find in the words from the past. All we need to do is learn to read them correctly. For although new prophecy has ceased, old prophecy still speaks to us today. Prophecy lives on in the words of the past prophets. When we read the words of Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zecharia and the others, keep this in mind. They did not speak about the past; no, they were speaking to us today, to big brother and all his hosts. The prophets of old warned the masters of today that like the masters of their days, today's masters would meet a similar fate, suddenly and without warning. After all, the warnings have already been given, thousands of years ago. But, who is paying attention? Who is reading Torah and the Bible with prophetic eyes? Those who do will see what is coming down the path of history, heading speedily towards us like an uncontrollable storm. They will prepare themselves for the coming storm. Others will reinforce their sense of delusional security and further blind their eyes and stop up their ears. So be it. It is not like this too has not happened countless times before throughout history. As it was, so will it be. This is the message of the Bible and this week's Torah commentary. I might not be very academically stimulating, but forgive me, I'd rather awaken you to the truth of Torah and its relevant message for today than merely put you to sleep with a nice story. --------------------------------------------------- Shalom, Ariel Bar Tzadok Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080117/d641440f/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jan 17 05:57:00 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 06:57:00 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Today's quote Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, From the Lekarev Report.. Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Whoever mocks the poor blasphemes his Maker; and he that is glad at another's calamity shall not be unpunished. Proverbs 17:5 **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080117/f622c4a0/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 17 12:55:23 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:55:23 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] LISTEN TO THE HEBREW BIBLE ON LINE! Message-ID: <029d01c8593a$841038d0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Friends, when Kim and I were talking the other day, she told me about this website on the Hebrew Bible which is wonderful. It has the Hebrew on the left and the English on the right; and what is more, you can "LISTEN" in Hebrew! http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm Just thought some might be interested! Shalom and Blessings on this the 5th day of Sabbath, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080117/8d0d0cb5/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 16:09:51 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:09:51 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] different groups of one heart Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801171409he6c155ay62616feadb55f09d@mail.gmail.com> Mom (Betty) & I were talking about this verse last Sabbath. I meant to post it, but I forgot. These verses seems very fitting. Verse five seems to say exactly what it going on as far as different groups calling themselves by different names, but they are all part of the seed whom HaShem's Spirit is upon. Isaiah Chapter 44 *1* Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen; *2* Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. *3* For I will pour water upon the thirsty land, and streams upon the dry ground; I will pour My spirit upon thy seed, and My blessing upon thine offspring; *4* And they shall spring up among the grass, as willows by the watercourses. *5* One shall say: 'I am the LORD'S'; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080117/c3d8cab1/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jan 17 18:18:15 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:18:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] different groups of one heart In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801171409he6c155ay62616feadb55f09d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0801171409he6c155ay62616feadb55f09d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Seems very on the mark to me! Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:09:51 -0600From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.comTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] different groups of one heartMom (Betty) & I were talking about this verse last Sabbath. I meant to post it, but I forgot. These verses seems very fitting. Verse five seems to say exactly what it going on as far as different groups calling themselves by different names, but they are all part of the seed whom HaShem's Spirit is upon. Isaiah Chapter 441 Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen; 2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. 3 For I will pour water upon the thirsty land, and streams upon the dry ground; I will pour My spirit upon thy seed, and My blessing upon thine offspring; 4 And they shall spring up among the grass, as willows by the watercourses. 5 One shall say: 'I am the LORD'S'; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080117/227939e0/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jan 17 18:41:55 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:41:55 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] LISTEN TO THE HEBREW BIBLE ON LINE! In-Reply-To: <029d01c8593a$841038d0$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <029d01c8593a$841038d0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: This is terrific. I used to go to this site, but had forgotten it. Thank you so much Kim and Betty! Love, Pat From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:55:23 -0600Subject: [Dialogue] LISTEN TO THE HEBREW BIBLE ON LINE! Friends, when Kim and I were talking the other day, she told me about this website on the Hebrew Bible which is wonderful. It has the Hebrew on the left and the English on the right; and what is more, you can ?LISTEN? in Hebrew! http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm Just thought some might be interested! Shalom and Blessings on this the 5th day of Sabbath, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080117/e4236488/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jan 17 18:44:10 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:44:10 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] different groups of one heart In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801171409he6c155ay62616feadb55f09d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002601c8596b$3d950c10$643c66c9@bettygivin> Yes, Kim found this reference and we both found it interesting and applicable to our discussion. Even though labels aren't really that important in the long view of things; and as we have already determined, HaShem knows who we are, I still think that these verses are compelling. He is naming the specific categories and addressing both Jacob and Israel. My take on the interpretation is that there are possibly 3 groups. (1) One which says, I am the LORD'S - could these be the ones drawn to HaShem and His Torah, but don't know where they belong or who they are or could they be B'Nai Noach? (2) and another "shall call himself by the name of Jacob" - are these the ones of Judah who refer to themselves as "Jews?" (3) And another "shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel" - are these the ones who think they may be of the lost tribes or the ones who have converted; and could either one fall into the category surnamed themselves with the name of Israel? Not sure.just thinking.ideas? Shalom, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 4:10 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] different groups of one heart Mom (Betty) & I were talking about this verse last Sabbath. I meant to post it, but I forgot. These verses seems very fitting. Verse five seems to say exactly what it going on as far as different groups calling themselves by different names, but they are all part of the seed whom HaShem's Spirit is upon. Isaiah Chapter 44 1 Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen; 2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. 3 For I will pour water upon the thirsty land, and streams upon the dry ground; I will pour My spirit upon thy seed, and My blessing upon thine offspring; 4 And they shall spring up among the grass, as willows by the watercourses. 5 One shall say: 'I am the LORD'S'; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080117/22407226/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 18 07:24:06 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:24:06 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Beshalach - this weeks' Torah portion Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim (Dear Friends), The d'var Torah (words of Torah) come from the Lekarev Report (contact _Leahrafaeli at yahoo.com_ (mailto:Leahrafaeli at yahoo.com) to sign up if you're interested). I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts about it; enjoy! Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah TORAH PORTION: Beshalach Shemot/Exodus 13:17 - 17:16 Judges 4:4 - 5:31 This is the Torah reading which commemorates the Great Miracle - the splitting of the Red Sea for the Israelites to walk through when Egypt was bearing down on them to take them back to Egypt. The Torah records that the water was a wall for them, on their right and on their left. What a sight that must have been! Imagine yourself walking with them through the sea! Imagine also what the Egyptians thought as they watched. In the very next verse, we read that Egypt pursued them into the midst of the sea and that is when Hashem intervened. He personally removed the wheels of their chariots and threw them into confusion. And then He commanded Moshe to stretch out his hand over the sea and when he did, the water went back upon the Egyptian army and its chariots and its horsemen. It says in Hebrew that "Hashem churned Egypt in the midst of the sea" - a very dramatic description. The direct intervention of Hashem is seen here as it was at the slaying of the firstborn of every Egyptian household. While He commands Moshe to do certain actions, these are Hashem's alone. It seemed as though Hashem waited until the last possible moment - the ultimate moment - to manifest His redemption. At that critical moment, when Egypt plunged into the sea after the Israelites, it was the sovereign intervention of Hashem that was the deciding factor, as expressed by the next verse, "On that day, Hashem saved Israel, " both spiritually and physically. There is an aggadic story that says that Pharaoh stands at the gates of Gehinnom, greeting every tyrant who throughout history has tried to destroy the people of Israel and says to them, "Why didn't you learn from my life?" It may be a story but the point is well taken. Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore; but even more, Israel saw the great Hand of Hashem and they revered Him and had faith in Him and in His chosen servant, Moshe. The two principal attitudes which Israel must use in serving Hashem are reverence and faith and trust based on love. We must have reverential awe of Hashem, but we also must place our full trust in Him, the G-d who radiates both love and justice. The salvation that laid the Egyptian army at the feet of their former slaves revealed Hashem's active justice joined together with His powerful love for His people. In one great historical moment, these two qulaities achieved simultaneous expression so that the people revered Hashem. A final comment: In verse 14:31 it says, "Israel saw the great Hand that Hashem inflicted upon Egypt..." The Zohar points out that "Israel" here refers to Jacob, our patriarch, whose name was changed to Israel by Hashem Himself. Jacob had been afraid to go down to Egypt, if you remember and Hashem had calmed him, saying, "Do not be afraid to go down into Egypt for there I will make you a great nation; I will go down with you into Egypt and I will also surely bring you up again." (Gen. 46:4) Now Hashem showed Jacob from the heavens how He had kept His word and fulfilled the promises He made to his grandfather, Abraham, "But also upon the nation which they shall serve, will I execute judgement, and afterwards they shall leave with great possessions." (Gen. 15:13) His promises NEVER fail! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/9a086083/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 18 07:28:09 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:28:09 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Erev Shabbat (Friday) Message-ID: Shabbat Shalom; this is from the Lekarev Report Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah And Hashem went before them by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; that they might go by day and by night: the pillar of cloud by day, and the pillar of fire by night, departed not from before the people. Exodus 13:21-22 **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/0c655db1/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 18 07:36:11 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:36:11 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Thoughts from Rav Binny Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem (to everyone), This is part of Rav Binny Freedman's (Director of Isralight) words of inspiration this week; I thought you'd find them of interest. You can sign up to receive the full 'Parsha Byte" by contacting: _www.isralight.org_ (http://www.isralight.org/) - tell Susan that Hanoch sent you :-) Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Small Tastings of Torah, Judaism and Spirituality by Rav Binny Freedman, Director Portion of Beshalach (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=0016E2zZxmGCxCVcb85BywKDR7gzjfijL-W7UnmRJjuWER81l7ibzQwWeikjRYt9oq6n2cWTyu0IYH9qzhLBgm1w8G8n4az5KtQR7S-Tc8hVL-JwpY7vznqszInjV9fbDd 0os9U4tEvVthGrb1o6UgEBUXCI-pDAj5e) It is hard to imagine, looking down at the dry, windswept desert floor far below, what it must have been like two thousand years ago, to be a Jewish rebel soldier atop the isolated fortress of Masada. What kept you going, as you gazed down at the might of three full Roman Legions, all bent on your destruction? In the year 70 CE, with the Temple (the Beit HaMikdash) in flames, Jerusalem breached and destroyed, hundreds of thousands of Jews dead, and hundreds of thousands more sold into slavery, the Romans announced that the great revolt had finally been put down. They even minted a coin to communicate their victory to the entire Roman Empire. The coin, known as 'Judea Capta', shows a woman, meant to be the Jewish people, cowering at the feet of a Roman legionnaire. The Jewish people had been defeated, and the war was finally over. The only problem was, the Romans were wrong. Two hundred Jewish rebel fighters and their families, who had slipped away from the fighting and escaped to the fortress of Masada, decided to show the world that the war wasn't over just yet. Finally, word of a pocket of Jewish fighters still ambushing patrols in the desert reached Rome, who could not afford for the word to get out that they had been wrong and that the revolt was not really over. And so the Senate dispatched what would eventually amount to three full Roman legions to defeat the Jewish resistance at Masada. Three Legions; that's fifteen thousand men; the sheer size of such a force must have been terrifying. One wonders what it must have felt like, to see a cloud on the horizon to the North one day, which did not seem to move, it simply grew larger and larger. What was it like to realize with a sinking feeling in your stomach that this was no ordinary cloud, it was the dust raised by the feet of thousands upon thousands of marching legionnaires, all coming to destroy you, and all that you hold dear. What must it have been like to watch the Romans surround the bottom of the mountain and begin building one of their infamous siege walls? Set back from the base of the mountain far enough to ensure a no-man's land no-one could pass through undetected, this was a nine foot high wall set with guard towers within sight of each other around the entire mountain. What did it feel like to realize that it was no longer a question of whether; it was simply a question of when? And how did you explain to your five- year-old son who might have come to visit you on guard duty, why there were fifteen thousand men encamped below your home? Nearly two thousand years later, long after the Roman Empire had crumbled into dust, a small group of archeologists and students came back to this place and began their search for the legend of Masada. Led by Yigal Yadin, the former Chief of Staff of the Israeli Army and one of the heroes of the War of Independence, they were determined to find out whether the incredible story of a small band of Jews who stood up to the mightiest Empire the world has ever known could be true. And one day, along the Eastern casement wall, in what was thought to be a Jewish rebel guard post overlooking the Legions far below, they made an incredible discovery. Hidden beneath the dirt and dust of two thousand years, they discovered a small piece of parchment, and on it was written the eighty-second psalm, in its entirety, exactly as we have it today. A small piece of the book of Tehillim (psalms) read and re-read most probably by a Jewish soldier on guard duty, two thousand years ago. "A Psalm of Asaf. G-d stands in the congregation of G-d, He judges among the judges. How long will you judge unjustly, and respect the persons of the wicked? Judge the cause of the poor and fatherless! Vindicate the afflicted and the needy! Deliver the poor and destitute: rescue them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, nor do they understand, they walk on in darkness, and all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I had said: 'You are angels (messengers of G-d), all of you sons of the most high; Nevertheless, you shall die like a man, and fall as one man, O' princes. Arise, Oh G-d, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all of the nations." I remember one particularly depressing Sunday morning, heading back up to Lebanon from Yad Eliahu, the stadium near the central bus station in Tel Aviv. It was a ten-minute walk from the bus station to where the buses were waiting, outside the stadium, to take the various units back up North after a weekend off. And you could easily spot any soldier that was headed back up to the hell of active duty in Lebanon; they were the ones carrying flak vests, helmets, and ammo webbing. (You had to leave Lebanon in military gear because of the danger, so guys would just take the gear home for the weekend.) As I was leaving the bus station, a beggar woman accosted me for tzedakah, a little bit of charity. The Jewish tradition teaches: "Tzedakah Tatzil Mi'Mavet" "Charity saves one from death", so if you're on your way up to Lebanon and a beggar woman asks for tzedakah, you find some coins. After I gave her some tzedakah, though, she wouldn't let me be, insisting on giving me a small miniature book of Tehillim (psalms) encased in plastic. Now, if you're on your way up to Lebanon, and a Beggar woman insists on giving you a book of Tehillim, you take it; so I did. And that book of Tehillim, which I have opened and used on a number of very challenging occasions since that day, still sits in the breast pocket of my army uniform, where it's familiar feel and shape gives me comfort wherever the army sends me. Two thousand years ago, facing the full might of the Legions of Rome, with the Temple destroyed and Jerusalem in ruins, a small group of Jewish men and women took a stand. And one of them, a lonely Jewish soldier, despite what appeared to be the end of the Jewish people close at hand, pulled out his little Tehillim and began to recite the psalms. And today, two thousand years later, in a modern State of Israel, with the first Jewish army since the fall of Masada, Israeli soldiers are still reading from that same book of Tehillim, which may well be why we are still here. Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/7f0a566e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 18 07:42:49 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:42:49 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A meditation based on the Shema Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Something a little different below, for those of you who enjoy the more 'esoteric.' The link below is a meditation that Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan (Of Blessed Memory) did, based on the Shema. You may have read some of R' Kaplan's material, which is truly excellent. Enjoy! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _Click here: YouTube - Shema Yisroel - Aryeh Kaplan's Meditation_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WivC5rGjNE) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/f1ebdd27/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 07:58:32 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:58:32 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A meditation based on the Shema In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801180558v9560a34m7e3248c42cc571ef@mail.gmail.com> I happened across this just the other day. I really liked it. Thanks for the reminder, I had not bookmarked it. Kim On Jan 18, 2008 7:42 AM, wrote: > Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, > > Something a little different below, for those of you who enjoy the more > 'esoteric.' The link below is a meditation that Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan (Of > Blessed Memory) did, based on the Shema. You may have read some of R' > Kaplan's material, which is truly excellent. Enjoy! > * Hanoch *the Lil Lion of Judah > > Click here: YouTube - Shema Yisroel - Aryeh Kaplan's Meditation > > *Hanoch *the Lil Lion of Judah > > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/a4f84549/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 18 08:04:08 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:04:08 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A meditation based on the Shema Message-ID: Hey Kim - Sure thing, I thought a number of folks might enjoy it. Hope you get a chance to chat with Rav Uri, and once again - please send my regards! Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/8aee9cdf/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 10:25:32 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:25:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A meditation based on the Shema In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aryeh Kaplan's teachings are wonderful. Thank you so much for this, Hanoch. Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.comDate: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:42:49 -0500To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] A meditation based on the Shema Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Something a little different below, for those of you who enjoy the more 'esoteric.' The link below is a meditation that Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan (Of Blessed Memory) did, based on the Shema. You may have read some of R' Kaplan's material, which is truly excellent. Enjoy! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Click here: YouTube - Shema Yisroel - Aryeh Kaplan's Meditation Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/2ced4bba/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 18 10:46:22 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:46:22 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A meditation based on the Shema Message-ID: Hey Pat - Glad you liked it! It is such a shame that Rabbi Kaplan died so young...his writings are incredibly dynamic. I'll keep looking around for things of interest :-) Have a Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/cf8eb9cd/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 10:49:10 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:49:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Thoughts from Rav Binny In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What a powerful teaching, Hanoch. Anything to do with Masada has always touched me deeply. I hope to hold forever the truth of Rav Binny's last sentence in this article: "And today, two thousand years later, in a modern State of Israel, with the first Jewish army since the fall of Masada, Israeli soldiers are still reading from that same book of Tehillim, which may well be why we are still here." Thank you, Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.comDate: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:36:11 -0500To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] Thoughts from Rav Binny Shalom L'Kulchem (to everyone), This is part of Rav Binny Freedman's (Director of Isralight) words of inspiration this week; I thought you'd find them of interest. You can sign up to receive the full 'Parsha Byte" by contacting: www.isralight.org - tell Susan that Hanoch sent you :-) Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Small Tastings of Torah, Judaism and Spiritualityby Rav Binny Freedman, Director Portion of Beshalach It is hard to imagine, looking down at the dry, windswept desert floor far below, what it must have been like two thousand years ago, to be a Jewish rebel soldier atop the isolated fortress of Masada. What kept you going, as you gazed down at the might of three full Roman Legions, all bent on your destruction? In the year 70 CE, with the Temple (the Beit HaMikdash) in flames, Jerusalem breached and destroyed, hundreds of thousands of Jews dead, and hundreds of thousands more sold into slavery, the Romans announced that the great revolt had finally been put down. They even minted a coin to communicate their victory to the entire Roman Empire. The coin, known as 'Judea Capta', shows a woman, meant to be the Jewish people, cowering at the feet of a Roman legionnaire. The Jewish people had been defeated, and the war was finally over. The only problem was, the Romans were wrong. Two hundred Jewish rebel fighters and their families, who had slipped away from the fighting and escaped to the fortress of Masada, decided to show the world that the war wasn't over just yet. Finally, word of a pocket of Jewish fighters still ambushing patrols in the desert reached Rome, who could not afford for the word to get out that they had been wrong and that the revolt was not really over. And so the Senate dispatched what would eventually amount to three full Roman legions to defeat the Jewish resistance at Masada. Three Legions; that's fifteen thousand men; the sheer size of such a force must have been terrifying. One wonders what it must have felt like, to see a cloud on the horizon to the North one day, which did not seem to move, it simply grew larger and larger. What was it like to realize with a sinking feeling in your stomach that this was no ordinary cloud, it was the dust raised by the feet of thousands upon thousands of marching legionnaires, all coming to destroy you, and all that you hold dear. What must it have been like to watch the Romans surround the bottom of the mountain and begin building one of their infamous siege walls? Set back from the base of the mountain far enough to ensure a no-man's land no-one could pass through undetected, this was a nine foot high wall set with guard towers within sight of each other around the entire mountain. What did it feel like to realize that it was no longer a question of whether; it was simply a question of when? And how did you explain to your five- year-old son who might have come to visit you on guard duty, why there were fifteen thousand men encamped below your home? Nearly two thousand years later, long after the Roman Empire had crumbled into dust, a small group of archeologists and students came back to this place and began their search for the legend of Masada. Led by Yigal Yadin, the former Chief of Staff of the Israeli Army and one of the heroes of the War of Independence, they were determined to find out whether the incredible story of a small band of Jews who stood up to the mightiest Empire the world has ever known could be true. And one day, along the Eastern casement wall, in what was thought to be a Jewish rebel guard post overlooking the Legions far below, they made an incredible discovery. Hidden beneath the dirt and dust of two thousand years, they discovered a small piece of parchment, and on it was written the eighty-second psalm, in its entirety, exactly as we have it today. A small piece of the book of Tehillim (psalms) read and re-read most probably by a Jewish soldier on guard duty, two thousand years ago. "A Psalm of Asaf. G-d stands in the congregation of G-d, He judges among the judges. How long will you judge unjustly, and respect the persons of the wicked? Judge the cause of the poor and fatherless! Vindicate the afflicted and the needy! Deliver the poor and destitute: rescue them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, nor do they understand, they walk on in darkness, and all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I had said: 'You are angels (messengers of G-d), all of you sons of the most high; Nevertheless, you shall die like a man, and fall as one man, O' princes. Arise, Oh G-d, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all of the nations." I remember one particularly depressing Sunday morning, heading back up to Lebanon from Yad Eliahu, the stadium near the central bus station in Tel Aviv. It was a ten-minute walk from the bus station to where the buses were waiting, outside the stadium, to take the various units back up North after a weekend off. And you could easily spot any soldier that was headed back up to the hell of active duty in Lebanon; they were the ones carrying flak vests, helmets, and ammo webbing. (You had to leave Lebanon in military gear because of the danger, so guys would just take the gear home for the weekend.) As I was leaving the bus station, a beggar woman accosted me for tzedakah, a little bit of charity. The Jewish tradition teaches: "Tzedakah Tatzil Mi'Mavet" "Charity saves one from death", so if you're on your way up to Lebanon and a beggar woman asks for tzedakah, you find some coins. After I gave her some tzedakah, though, she wouldn't let me be, insisting on giving me a small miniature book of Tehillim (psalms) encased in plastic. Now, if you're on your way up to Lebanon, and a Beggar woman insists on giving you a book of Tehillim, you take it; so I did. And that book of Tehillim, which I have opened and used on a number of very challenging occasions since that day, still sits in the breast pocket of my army uniform, where it's familiar feel and shape gives me comfort wherever the army sends me. Two thousand years ago, facing the full might of the Legions of Rome, with the Temple destroyed and Jerusalem in ruins, a small group of Jewish men and women took a stand. And one of them, a lonely Jewish soldier, despite what appeared to be the end of the Jewish people close at hand, pulled out his little Tehillim and began to recite the psalms. And today, two thousand years later, in a modern State of Israel, with the first Jewish army since the fall of Masada, Israeli soldiers are still reading from that same book of Tehillim, which may well be why we are still here. Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/0278725e/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Fri Jan 18 10:52:28 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:52:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] From OneNewsNow.com: LifeWay survey reveals attitudes of unchurched toward spiritual matters Message-ID: <000001c859f2$84125210$0200a8c0@marvin> I thought you'd be interested in this OneNewsNow.com report: Article below. http://www.onenewsnow.com/2008/01/lifeway_survey_reveals_attitud.php My little comments are in bold text. Thought you guys might find this article interesting. Notice the percentages. Seem's like they are a little different form 20 years ago. Also, been wondering what we are to do for God- Hashem? I'll make a suggestion at the end. Notice the last sentence of the article and then the N.T, verse. marvin LifeWay survey reveals attitudes of unchurched toward spiritual matters Allie Martin OneNewsNow.com January 17, 2008 A new study by LifeWay Research shows that many "unchurched" Americans are open to developing relationships with Christians and discussing Christ and spiritual matters, but often reject or have negative attitudes toward the institutional church. The study polled 1,400 adults who had not been to a religious service in the past six months. Seventy-two percent of those surveyed said they believed in God, but only 48 percent said there is only one God as described in the Bible. Sixty-one percent said the God of the Bible is no different from gods or other beings depicted by world religions such as Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. (Just stick around for the second Exodus... you see!) Ed Stetzer, director of LifeWay Research , says those responses are in line with what he sees as the "Ophra-ization" of American Christianity. "And when you start drilling down to further [explain] it's the 'God of the Bible' [they'll say] they believe in God -- and that's that generic, 'big guy in the sky'-kind of view," he says. "But when you start talking about [the fact that] there exists only one God, the God described in the Bible, the agree and the disagree [responses] begin to split." (A friend use to say years ago; Most people have the ideal of God as being the big guy in the sky with the lollipop. One lick if your good, two for being bad) People polled during the study were also asked about their perception of the church. Sixty four (64) percent said Christianity is a relevant and viable religion for today, but 79 percent believe Christianity is more about organized religion than about loving God and loving people. Seventy-two (72) percent said the church is full of hypocrites, and 86 percent believe they can have a relationship with God without being involved in church. The researcher says many Christians have been sharing presentations -- instead of their faith -- with the unchurched. "Ultimately the challenge is that they have seen us ... maybe they have seen us correctly, [and] maybe we have overplayed the program and underplayed the relationship," he suggests. The study also found that 89 percent of the unchurched have close friends who are Christians, and 78 percent said they would be willing to listen to someone who wanted to share what they believed about Christianity. (Suggested great opening line: Have you ever thought about where the early church assembled ????) Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples(teach them) of all the nations, baptizing(immerse, No water in this context) them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: ( Torah and the Phrophets would be a good place to start) and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. All Original Content Copyright 2006-2008 American Family News Network - All Rights Reserved -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/df9c56ef/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 18 12:51:45 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:51:45 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Help us save Jerusalem Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, Please read the sample letter below from the Israel Unity Coalition and DO YOUR PART, by sending it to the people they list. Please help do what YOU can... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah THE SUBJECT OF THIS ALERT IS THE URGENT NEED FOR THE SHAS AND PENSIONERS PARTIES TO SAVE ISRAEL BY RESIGNING FROM THE OLMERT-KADIMA GOVERNMENT. Now that Yisrael Beiteinu has led the way the sole responsibility for the future of Israel rests in the hands of only a few members of the Knesset. We entreat them to follow MK Liberman's lead. Please read the sample letter below. It is a letter that you can send with one click "as is," or you may edit the text as you see fit. This Urgent Action Alert will go to MK Avigdor Liberman and MK Eli Yishai with copies to Prime Minister Olmert, Vice Prime Minister Haim Ramon, MK Rabbi Benyamin Elon, MK Dr. Arieh Eldad, MK Benjamin Netanyahu, Foreign Affairs Minister Tzipi Livni, President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. Dear MKs Liberman and Yishai, I express my strong support for those in Israel who have the courage to stand against the global tide that would sacrifice Israel for economic reasons or worse yet, out of sheer indifference. It is with great relief that I read the announcement that you, MK Liberman and your party, Yisrael Beiteinu, have left the ruling Olmert led Kadima coalition government in Israel. From my perspective you have done this not a moment too soon. I understand that the official reason behind your move was over disagreement with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert regarding negotiation of core issues in the Israeli-Palestinian dispute. The ?outlandish? concessions that Olmert has agreed to are enough to discourage all supporters of Israel. We have long awaited a righteous statesman to stand up and defend Israel from a self-imposed irreversible suicide pact. Unfortunately the United States through President George Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice have played a leading role in this travesty. Prime Minister Olmert has agreed to divide Jerusalem. And not only has he taken it upon himself to defeat Israel demographically by accepting 50,000 Arab ? refugees?, but he has forgotten completely to represent the rights of 850,000 Jewish refugees who were expelled from Arab countries and absorbed by Israel in 1948. These alone are reasons to disqualify him from representing Israel?s citizens and world Jewry. A January 7 poll by the B?nai B?rith World Center in Jerusalem discloses that 68% of Israelis oppose Olmert?s policies. I join with the Likud and the National Union Parties and other Jewish leadership as we call upon the Shas and Pensioners Parties to leave the Olmert led government. Zionists worldwide have a vested interest in the current momentous events. We are watching closely the decisions that your Parties will now make. The future existence of Israel depends solely on you. Many of us, Christian and Jewish Zionists from all around the world, await your action to preserve the state of Israel for future generations. Signed, _Click here for the sample Letter_ (http://www.israelunitycoalition.org/aa/alert.php?id=17) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/4b88184b/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Fri Jan 18 13:17:35 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:17:35 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Thoughts from Rav Binny References: Message-ID: <014b01c85a06$c8f87990$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Extremely heart warming!!! Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: patricia robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 10:49 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Thoughts from Rav Binny What a powerful teaching, Hanoch. Anything to do with Masada has always touched me deeply. I hope to hold forever the truth of Rav Binny's last sentence in this article: "And today, two thousand years later, in a modern State of Israel, with the first Jewish army since the fall of Masada, Israeli soldiers are still reading from that same book of Tehillim, which may well be why we are still here." Thank you, Pat ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:36:11 -0500 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Thoughts from Rav Binny Shalom L'Kulchem (to everyone), This is part of Rav Binny Freedman's (Director of Isralight) words of inspiration this week; I thought you'd find them of interest. You can sign up to receive the full 'Parsha Byte" by contacting: www.isralight.org - tell Susan that Hanoch sent you :-) Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Small Tastings of Torah, Judaism and Spirituality by Rav Binny Freedman, Director Portion of Beshalach It is hard to imagine, looking down at the dry, windswept desert floor far below, what it must have been like two thousand years ago, to be a Jewish rebel soldier atop the isolated fortress of Masada. What kept you going, as you gazed down at the might of three full Roman Legions, all bent on your destruction? In the year 70 CE, with the Temple (the Beit HaMikdash) in flames, Jerusalem breached and destroyed, hundreds of thousands of Jews dead, and hundreds of thousands more sold into slavery, the Romans announced that the great revolt had finally been put down. They even minted a coin to communicate their victory to the entire Roman Empire. The coin, known as 'Judea Capta', shows a woman, meant to be the Jewish people, cowering at the feet of a Roman legionnaire. The Jewish people had been defeated, and the war was finally over. The only problem was, the Romans were wrong. Two hundred Jewish rebel fighters and their families, who had slipped away from the fighting and escaped to the fortress of Masada, decided to show the world that the war wasn't over just yet. Finally, word of a pocket of Jewish fighters still ambushing patrols in the desert reached Rome, who could not afford for the word to get out that they had been wrong and that the revolt was not really over. And so the Senate dispatched what would eventually amount to three full Roman legions to defeat the Jewish resistance at Masada. Three Legions; that's fifteen thousand men; the sheer size of such a force must have been terrifying. One wonders what it must have felt like, to see a cloud on the horizon to the North one day, which did not seem to move, it simply grew larger and larger. What was it like to realize with a sinking feeling in your stomach that this was no ordinary cloud, it was the dust raised by the feet of thousands upon thousands of marching legionnaires, all coming to destroy you, and all that you hold dear. What must it have been like to watch the Romans surround the bottom of the mountain and begin building one of their infamous siege walls? Set back from the base of the mountain far enough to ensure a no-man's land no-one could pass through undetected, this was a nine foot high wall set with guard towers within sight of each other around the entire mountain. What did it feel like to realize that it was no longer a question of whether; it was simply a question of when? And how did you explain to your five- year-old son who might have come to visit you on guard duty, why there were fifteen thousand men encamped below your home? Nearly two thousand years later, long after the Roman Empire had crumbled into dust, a small group of archeologists and students came back to this place and began their search for the legend of Masada. Led by Yigal Yadin, the former Chief of Staff of the Israeli Army and one of the heroes of the War of Independence, they were determined to find out whether the incredible story of a small band of Jews who stood up to the mightiest Empire the world has ever known could be true. And one day, along the Eastern casement wall, in what was thought to be a Jewish rebel guard post overlooking the Legions far below, they made an incredible discovery. Hidden beneath the dirt and dust of two thousand years, they discovered a small piece of parchment, and on it was written the eighty-second psalm, in its entirety, exactly as we have it today. A small piece of the book of Tehillim (psalms) read and re-read most probably by a Jewish soldier on guard duty, two thousand years ago. "A Psalm of Asaf. G-d stands in the congregation of G-d, He judges among the judges. How long will you judge unjustly, and respect the persons of the wicked? Judge the cause of the poor and fatherless! Vindicate the afflicted and the needy! Deliver the poor and destitute: rescue them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, nor do they understand, they walk on in darkness, and all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I had said: 'You are angels (messengers of G-d), all of you sons of the most high; Nevertheless, you shall die like a man, and fall as one man, O' princes. Arise, Oh G-d, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all of the nations." I remember one particularly depressing Sunday morning, heading back up to Lebanon from Yad Eliahu, the stadium near the central bus station in Tel Aviv. It was a ten-minute walk from the bus station to where the buses were waiting, outside the stadium, to take the various units back up North after a weekend off. And you could easily spot any soldier that was headed back up to the hell of active duty in Lebanon; they were the ones carrying flak vests, helmets, and ammo webbing. (You had to leave Lebanon in military gear because of the danger, so guys would just take the gear home for the weekend.) As I was leaving the bus station, a beggar woman accosted me for tzedakah, a little bit of charity. The Jewish tradition teaches: "Tzedakah Tatzil Mi'Mavet" "Charity saves one from death", so if you're on your way up to Lebanon and a beggar woman asks for tzedakah, you find some coins. After I gave her some tzedakah, though, she wouldn't let me be, insisting on giving me a small miniature book of Tehillim (psalms) encased in plastic. Now, if you're on your way up to Lebanon, and a Beggar woman insists on giving you a book of Tehillim, you take it; so I did. And that book of Tehillim, which I have opened and used on a number of very challenging occasions since that day, still sits in the breast pocket of my army uniform, where it's familiar feel and shape gives me comfort wherever the army sends me. Two thousand years ago, facing the full might of the Legions of Rome, with the Temple destroyed and Jerusalem in ruins, a small group of Jewish men and women took a stand. And one of them, a lonely Jewish soldier, despite what appeared to be the end of the Jewish people close at hand, pulled out his little Tehillim and began to recite the psalms. And today, two thousand years later, in a modern State of Israel, with the first Jewish army since the fall of Masada, Israeli soldiers are still reading from that same book of Tehillim, which may well be why we are still here. Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/3ed7a657/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 18 13:52:16 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:52:16 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Thoughts from Rav Binny Message-ID: Hey Loy- Glad you enjoyed it...I keep looking for little "gems" to post. Have a Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/342968d7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jan 18 14:09:46 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:09:46 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Thoughts from Rav Binny Message-ID: Hi Pat - You're very welcome...the time I spent with Rav Binny was an amazing learning experience for me. And I too, have a very strong connection to Masada. May we, as a people never again be in that kind of situation... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/00bd5718/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 14:47:19 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:47:19 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Help us save Jerusalem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801181247v13a3bf83h32701f91b2bf62a6@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 18, 2008 12:51 PM, wrote: > Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, > > Please read the sample letter below from the Israel Unity Coalition > and DO YOUR PART, by sending it to the people they list. Please help do > what YOU can... > > Shabbat Shalom, > > *Hanoch *the Lil Lion of Judah > ** > *THE SUBJECT OF THIS ALERT IS THE URGENT NEED FOR THE SHAS AND PENSIONERS > PARTIES TO SAVE ISRAEL BY RESIGNING FROM THE OLMERT-KADIMA GOVERNMENT. Now > that Yisrael Beiteinu has led the way the sole responsibility for the future > of Israel rests in the hands of only a few members of the Knesset. We > entreat them to follow MK Liberman's lead. > > Please read the sample letter below. It is a letter that you can send with > one click "as is," or you may edit the text as you see fit. This Urgent > Action Alert will go to MK Avigdor Liberman and MK Eli Yishai with copies to > Prime Minister Olmert, Vice Prime Minister Haim Ramon, MK Rabbi Benyamin > Elon, MK Dr. Arieh Eldad, MK Benjamin Netanyahu, Foreign Affairs Minister > Tzipi Livni, President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. > > Dear MKs Liberman and Yishai, > > I express my strong support for those in Israel who have the courage to > stand against the global tide that would sacrifice Israel for economic > reasons or worse yet, out of sheer indifference. > > It is with great relief that I read the announcement that you, MK Liberman > and your party, Yisrael Beiteinu, have left the ruling Olmert led Kadima > coalition government in Israel. From my perspective you have done this not a > moment too soon. I understand that the official reason behind your move was > over disagreement with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert regarding negotiation of > core issues in the Israeli-Palestinian dispute. > > The "outlandish" concessions that Olmert has agreed to are enough to > discourage all supporters of Israel. We have long awaited a righteous > statesman to stand up and defend Israel from a self-imposed irreversible > suicide pact. Unfortunately the United States through President George Bush > and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice have played a leading role in this > travesty. > > Prime Minister Olmert has agreed to divide Jerusalem. And not only has he > taken it upon himself to defeat Israel demographically by accepting 50,000 > Arab "refugees", but he has forgotten completely to represent the rights of > 850,000 Jewish refugees who were expelled from Arab countries and absorbed > by Israel in 1948. These alone are reasons to disqualify him from > representing Israel's citizens and world Jewry. A January 7 poll by the > B'nai B'rith World Center in Jerusalem discloses that 68% of Israelis oppose > Olmert's policies. > > I join with the Likud and the National Union Parties and other Jewish > leadership as we call upon the Shas and Pensioners Parties to leave the > Olmert led government. Zionists worldwide have a vested interest in the > current momentous events. We are watching closely the decisions that your > Parties will now make. > > The future existence of Israel depends solely on you. Many of us, > Christian and Jewish Zionists from all around the world, await your action > to preserve the state of Israel for future generations. > > Signed,* > > Click here for the sample Letter > > ** > > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > _______________________________________________ > > Done! Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080118/2c20c0bd/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sat Jan 19 00:44:56 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:44:56 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Family First Message-ID: All, I pray that this note finds all of you in good health and searching for the good way among the Ancient Paths where you will find rest for your souls (Jeremiah 6:16). I am writing this letter in an attempt to communicate some important things going on with me at this time. I feel that it will resonate with what some of you may be going through as well. Many of you know that I am employed as a manager in the paper industry. I was recently promoted to a position of increased responsibility within the organization. This is how I support my family and so the demands of this job are not a variable over which I have any control at this time. I am blessed that the job is Monday through Friday and so I am off on the Sabbath. This has allowed me to work my job and fulfill my role as a congregational "leader" / Bible Teacher with Roots of Faith. My job at the paper mill requires that I work extremely long hours. For the past couple of years I have managed to work these hours and to prepare and deliver a weekly lesson every Saturday morning from the "Synagogue without Walls". Working 60+ hours per week, being on call, preparing a weekly lesson, delivering the lesson, editing the recording and posting the class as a podcast and answering emails from many wonderful people who are searching for the truth requires a good deal of time. Life is complex and I realize that I am not alone in my dealing with the "cares of this world", and so this is not meant to be a pity party. In fact I can do all of the above and still find time to sleep. The problem is that I have neglected a very important part of ministry - my own family! Many of you are aware that I am blessed with a beautiful family. My wife Bridget and I have been married for nearly 22 years. February 14th is our wedding anniversary. We first dated in the 10th grade. I spotted her at her locker one day while sitting in Geometry class - I never was good at math anyway. Something inside whispered to me that she was the girl for me. We dated for some time....she broke up with me at some point and then she came back to her senses and I won her back in our senior year. We have been together ever since. We now have 6 wonderful children. Our two oldest children (a son and a daughter - Ty and Callie) are in college. Our oldest son Ty is married to a wonderful Godly woman (Kathryn) and they have a son, our first grandchild, Asher. The third (another daughter - Emily) graduates from High School this year. Our three younger children are 14, 10 and 6 - all boys (Zachariah, Seth and Tobias). I often get letters from people asking me what they should do with their children in regards to adopting a Torah based lifestyle. They are asking me for direction and advice. I have to admit that while studying and learning for the past two decades I have done very little to teach my own family of these things. In a busy family such as mine, my wife has taken on the incredible task of raising our children while I poured over the books. Of late I have been praying about direction for Roots of Faith and recently while preparing a lesson for my weekly webcast on Saturday morning the words of Genesis 18:19 jumped off the page at me in a very strong way. The very purpose that God chose Abraham was so that he would command his children and his house after him that they observe the way of Yehovah - to do virtue and justice! Here it was staring me in the face. The plan of God is that we teach our children to observe the Way of Yehovah. Every morning and evening for the past year I recited the words of the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Deuteronomy 11:13-21 and Numbers 15:37-41). In both of the passages from Deuteronomy there is a statement that we should teach these things to our children. It finally sunk in. The very roots of Abrahamic Faith are to pass these teachings along to our children. I have taught people over the internet that I have never met. My classes have reached those in other states and even other countries, but I have not invested the same amount of time and energy into my own family. I have been doing some soul searching of late and it has caused me to reevaluate my priorities. This is why I am writing this letter. I feel a need to inform all of you of the decisions that are the result of my evaluation. In a nut shell, I need to re-direct until I can bring things back into a proper balance. So what does this mean for you and for what we have begun at Roots of Faith. I insist and desire that things continue along the path that we have begun. My friends and "extended family" at Roots of Faith will continue to meet every Sabbath in the synagogue. Remember that Acts 15:21 says that Moses of old hath THEM that preach him every Sabbath in the synagogue. I have stressed to my group that this is not, nor should it ever become the Ross Nichols Show. Yes, I love to teach and will do so again, but have to prioritize things. The Roots of Faith family is full of mature and seeking souls that desire to study to show themselves approved unto God. This is an excellent opportunity for some of the natural leaders to step forward. I would ask that those of you who have been part of the synagogue without walls to continue to log in and listen every Saturday morning at 10:30 Central and even join in the dialogue that the group has made a part of what this is all about. It remains on track with the vision that I feel God gave me early on. To my knowledge there is no place that allows people to openly participate in the ancient art of dialogue. I have not abandoned them or any of you. I will be in close communication with my local group often. They have all become my closest friends in the world and we now love and respect each other deeply. As for me, I will seek to restore some balance in my home life. I want to take a deep breath, sweep my wife off her feet again (she probably wants me to begin in the kitchen with the broom), re-connect with my family and in the process I know in my heart that the movement will be advanced in many ways. By living the Torah way and walking it with my family I will establish a model (with God's help) that I can then share with all who care to learn. I am to make this my new focus. The Roots of our Faith are tied closely with families following the Way of Yehovah! I will continue to think globally but must make things right in my own tent first. I hope to find time to send out study notes on the weekly lessons, participate more in the Dialogue list, and even make some audio and video teachings from time to time. I hope and pray that you all understand my reasons for pulling back for a while. By allowing me this time, I will be able to be part of what God is calling this generation to do. The last verses of Malachi are most instructive in this regard. We are told to remember the Torah of Moses, and informed that Elijah will return before the coming great and terrible day of Yehovah to turn the heart of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to the fathers. The result of not uniting the heart of fathers with sons brings a curse. I seek to re-unite my heart with the hearts of my wife and children - as well as the rest of my family. Thanks to all of you for your continued support of what is going on in the synagogue without walls. Please continue to support this ministry. I will keep you posted. In the meantime, I will be posting some video teachings from our archives of past teachings on the new Bible teaching network (_www.Arba4.com_ (http://www.Arba4.com) ). I have a video up now and we are currently working on editing enough video for the next several weeks. If you have not checked this site out, I encourage you to do so. I also have some upcoming speaking engagements that I will be telling you about as the time approaches. I pray that balance and harmony become a focal point for all of us. The results have the potential to change the world - one family at a time. I will teach my children to pray and show them what a good and Godly family man looks like. Much shalom and many blessings - from my study, Ross Nichols **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080119/db334b78/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sat Jan 19 00:55:30 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 00:55:30 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Family First References: Message-ID: <005a01c85a68$48360ea0$6400a8c0@davesbook> a man seeking after Gods heart......wow!!! (:~) dave ----- Original Message ----- From: RNDAVAR at aol.com To: uilist at unitedisrael.org ; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 12:44 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Family First All, I pray that this note finds all of you in good health and searching for the good way among the Ancient Paths where you will find rest for your souls (Jeremiah 6:16). I am writing this letter in an attempt to communicate some important things going on with me at this time. I feel that it will resonate with what some of you may be going through as well. Many of you know that I am employed as a manager in the paper industry. I was recently promoted to a position of increased responsibility within the organization. This is how I support my family and so the demands of this job are not a variable over which I have any control at this time. I am blessed that the job is Monday through Friday and so I am off on the Sabbath. This has allowed me to work my job and fulfill my role as a congregational "leader" / Bible Teacher with Roots of Faith. My job at the paper mill requires that I work extremely long hours. For the past couple of years I have managed to work these hours and to prepare and deliver a weekly lesson every Saturday morning from the "Synagogue without Walls". Working 60+ hours per week, being on call, preparing a weekly lesson, delivering the lesson, editing the recording and posting the class as a podcast and answering emails from many wonderful people who are searching for the truth requires a good deal of time. Life is complex and I realize that I am not alone in my dealing with the "cares of this world", and so this is not meant to be a pity party. In fact I can do all of the above and still find time to sleep. The problem is that I have neglected a very important part of ministry - my own family! Many of you are aware that I am blessed with a beautiful family. My wife Bridget and I have been married for nearly 22 years. February 14th is our wedding anniversary. We first dated in the 10th grade. I spotted her at her locker one day while sitting in Geometry class - I never was good at math anyway. Something inside whispered to me that she was the girl for me. We dated for some time....she broke up with me at some point and then she came back to her senses and I won her back in our senior year. We have been together ever since. We now have 6 wonderful children. Our two oldest children (a son and a daughter - Ty and Callie) are in college. Our oldest son Ty is married to a wonderful Godly woman (Kathryn) and they have a son, our first grandchild, Asher. The third (another daughter - Emily) graduates from High School this year. Our three younger children are 14, 10 and 6 - all boys (Zachariah, Seth and Tobias). I often get letters from people asking me what they should do with their children in regards to adopting a Torah based lifestyle. They are asking me for direction and advice. I have to admit that while studying and learning for the past two decades I have done very little to teach my own family of these things. In a busy family such as mine, my wife has taken on the incredible task of raising our children while I poured over the books. Of late I have been praying about direction for Roots of Faith and recently while preparing a lesson for my weekly webcast on Saturday morning the words of Genesis 18:19 jumped off the page at me in a very strong way. The very purpose that God chose Abraham was so that he would command his children and his house after him that they observe the way of Yehovah - to do virtue and justice! Here it was staring me in the face. The plan of God is that we teach our children to observe the Way of Yehovah. Every morning and evening for the past year I recited the words of the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Deuteronomy 11:13-21 and Numbers 15:37-41). In both of the passages from Deuteronomy there is a statement that we should teach these things to our children. It finally sunk in. The very roots of Abrahamic Faith are to pass these teachings along to our children. I have taught people over the internet that I have never met. My classes have reached those in other states and even other countries, but I have not invested the same amount of time and energy into my own family. I have been doing some soul searching of late and it has caused me to reevaluate my priorities. This is why I am writing this letter. I feel a need to inform all of you of the decisions that are the result of my evaluation. In a nut shell, I need to re-direct until I can bring things back into a proper balance. So what does this mean for you and for what we have begun at Roots of Faith. I insist and desire that things continue along the path that we have begun. My friends and "extended family" at Roots of Faith will continue to meet every Sabbath in the synagogue. Remember that Acts 15:21 says that Moses of old hath THEM that preach him every Sabbath in the synagogue. I have stressed to my group that this is not, nor should it ever become the Ross Nichols Show. Yes, I love to teach and will do so again, but have to prioritize things. The Roots of Faith family is full of mature and seeking souls that desire to study to show themselves approved unto God. This is an excellent opportunity for some of the natural leaders to step forward. I would ask that those of you who have been part of the synagogue without walls to continue to log in and listen every Saturday morning at 10:30 Central and even join in the dialogue that the group has made a part of what this is all about. It remains on track with the vision that I feel God gave me early on. To my knowledge there is no place that allows people to openly participate in the ancient art of dialogue. I have not abandoned them or any of you. I will be in close communication with my local group often. They have all become my closest friends in the world and we now love and respect each other deeply. As for me, I will seek to restore some balance in my home life. I want to take a deep breath, sweep my wife off her feet again (she probably wants me to begin in the kitchen with the broom), re-connect with my family and in the process I know in my heart that the movement will be advanced in many ways. By living the Torah way and walking it with my family I will establish a model (with God's help) that I can then share with all who care to learn. I am to make this my new focus. The Roots of our Faith are tied closely with families following the Way of Yehovah! I will continue to think globally but must make things right in my own tent first. I hope to find time to send out study notes on the weekly lessons, participate more in the Dialogue list, and even make some audio and video teachings from time to time. I hope and pray that you all understand my reasons for pulling back for a while. By allowing me this time, I will be able to be part of what God is calling this generation to do. The last verses of Malachi are most instructive in this regard. We are told to remember the Torah of Moses, and informed that Elijah will return before the coming great and terrible day of Yehovah to turn the heart of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to the fathers. The result of not uniting the heart of fathers with sons brings a curse. I seek to re-unite my heart with the hearts of my wife and children - as well as the rest of my family. Thanks to all of you for your continued support of what is going on in the synagogue without walls. Please continue to support this ministry. I will keep you posted. In the meantime, I will be posting some video teachings from our archives of past teachings on the new Bible teaching network (www.Arba4.com). I have a video up now and we are currently working on editing enough video for the next several weeks. If you have not checked this site out, I encourage you to do so. I also have some upcoming speaking engagements that I will be telling you about as the time approaches. I pray that balance and harmony become a focal point for all of us. The results have the potential to change the world - one family at a time. I will teach my children to pray and show them what a good and Godly family man looks like. Much shalom and many blessings - from my study, Ross Nichols ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080119/48d4b9a2/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sat Jan 19 01:02:27 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:02:27 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject) Message-ID: <007201c85a69$40415af0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Tonight my family and Denny Johnson's family along with some of their friends shared a Shabbat meal together. It was wonderful. We lit candles....read the bible, prayed, sang, said blessings to each other. Even his two dogs and my two "buddies" got along good. It was wonderful to meet some of his friends. we read proverbs 31 to our wives........oh did I mention that THEY were in Minnesota and we are In Louisiana? That's right we may have done the first live virtual Shabbat meal over the internet.......we did a video conference with his family sitting at their table and we did the same. we could see and hear them an like wise they us. It went pretty good. I write this in total amazement....... stunned dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080119/4271b47e/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sat Jan 19 01:05:37 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 02:05:37 EST Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject) Message-ID: In a message dated 1/19/2008 1:02:46 A.M. Central Standard Time, dhcole1 at cox.net writes: Tonight my family and Denny Johnson's family along with some of their friends shared a Shabbat meal together. It was wonderful. We lit candles....read the bible, prayed, sang, said blessings to each other. Even his two dogs and my two "buddies" got along good. It was wonderful to meet some of his friends. we read proverbs 31 to our wives........oh did I mention that THEY were in Minnesota and we are In Louisiana? That's right we may have done the first live virtual Shabbat meal over the internet.......we did a video conference with his family sitting at their table and we did the same. we could see and hear them an like wise they us. It went pretty good. I write this in total amazement....... stunned dave This is incredible and what I have prayed for. Families DOING torah together - even though separated by such distance. Moses is smiling! Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080119/f5eb76cf/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jan 19 01:37:09 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:37:09 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Family First In-Reply-To: <005a01c85a68$48360ea0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <00ff01c85a6e$19c34870$643c66c9@bettygivin> Amen to what Dave said, Ross! This is good?and you and your family will be so blessed. I have always thought of you in association with Psalms 27:3-5. In fact, this past Monday evening when I was praying for my family and friends, Psalm 27:2 came to my mind very strongly. I couldn?t remember what it said, so I got out my Bible and read it. Afterwards, I wrote down four names of people to whom I thought this applied on a little sticky note and yours was among them. I intended to email you and didn?t. But now, this is the perfect opportunity, as I feel that it is a direct confirmation that your decision is definitely from HaShem. Warm Shabbat Shalom wishes and my love to your and your family, Betty/Elisheva Psalms Chapter 127 ? ????? ???????????, ??????????: ???-??????, ???-??????? ?????-- ?????? ??????? ??????? ????; ???-?????? ???-????????-????, ?????? ?????? ???????. 1 A Song of Ascents; of Solomon. {N} Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it; {N} except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. ? ?????? ????? ???????????? ????, ?????????-??????-- ???????, ????? ??????????; ???? ?????? ????????? ??????. 2 It is vain for you that ye rise early, and sit up late, {N} ye that eat the bread of toil; {N} so He giveth unto His beloved in sleep. ? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???????: ??????, ?????? ????????. 3 Lo, children are a heritage of the LORD; the fruit of the womb is a reward. ? ?????????? ??????-????????-- ????, ?????? ????????????. 4 As arrows in the hand of a mighty man, so are the children of one's youth. ? ???????? ????????-- ?????? ?????? ???-???????????, ?????: ???-????????-- ????-?????????? ???-????????? ??????????. 5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them; {N} they shall not be put to shame, when they speak with their enemies in the gate. {P} _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 12:56 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Family First a man seeking after Gods heart......wow!!! (:~) dave ----- Original Message ----- From: RNDAVAR at aol.com To: uilist at unitedisrael.org ; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 12:44 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Family First All, I pray that this note finds all of you in good health and searching for the good way among the Ancient Paths where you will find rest for your souls (Jeremiah 6:16). I am writing this letter in an attempt to communicate some important things going on with me at this time. I feel that it will resonate with what some of you may be going through as well. Many of you know that I am employed as a manager in the paper industry. I was recently promoted to a position of increased responsibility within the organization. This is how I support my family and so the demands of this job are not a variable over which I have any control at this time. I am blessed that the job is Monday through Friday and so I am off on the Sabbath. This has allowed me to work my job and fulfill my role as a congregational "leader" / Bible Teacher with Roots of Faith. My job at the paper mill requires that I work extremely long hours. For the past couple of years I have managed to work these hours and to prepare and deliver a weekly lesson every Saturday morning from the "Synagogue without Walls". Working 60+ hours per week, being on call, preparing a weekly lesson, delivering the lesson, editing the recording and posting the class as a podcast and answering emails from many wonderful people who are searching for the truth requires a good deal of time. Life is complex and I realize that I am not alone in my dealing with the "cares of this world", and so this is not meant to be a pity party. In fact I can do all of the above and still find time to sleep. The problem is that I have neglected a very important part of ministry - my own family! Many of you are aware that I am blessed with a beautiful family. My wife Bridget and I have been married for nearly 22 years. February 14th is our wedding anniversary. We first dated in the 10th grade. I spotted her at her locker one day while sitting in Geometry class - I never was good at math anyway. Something inside whispered to me that she was the girl for me. We dated for some time....she broke up with me at some point and then she came back to her senses and I won her back in our senior year. We have been together ever since. We now have 6 wonderful children. Our two oldest children (a son and a daughter - Ty and Callie) are in college. Our oldest son Ty is married to a wonderful Godly woman (Kathryn) and they have a son, our first grandchild, Asher. The third (another daughter - Emily) graduates from High School this year. Our three younger children are 14, 10 and 6 - all boys (Zachariah, Seth and Tobias). I often get letters from people asking me what they should do with their children in regards to adopting a Torah based lifestyle. They are asking me for direction and advice. I have to admit that while studying and learning for the past two decades I have done very little to teach my own family of these things. In a busy family such as mine, my wife has taken on the incredible task of raising our children while I poured over the books. Of late I have been praying about direction for Roots of Faith and recently while preparing a lesson for my weekly webcast on Saturday morning the words of Genesis 18:19 jumped off the page at me in a very strong way. The very purpose that God chose Abraham was so that he would command his children and his house after him that they observe the way of Yehovah - to do virtue and justice! Here it was staring me in the face. The plan of God is that we teach our children to observe the Way of Yehovah. Every morning and evening for the past year I recited the words of the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Deuteronomy 11:13-21 and Numbers 15:37-41). In both of the passages from Deuteronomy there is a statement that we should teach these things to our children. It finally sunk in. The very roots of Abrahamic Faith are to pass these teachings along to our children. I have taught people over the internet that I have never met. My classes have reached those in other states and even other countries, but I have not invested the same amount of time and energy into my own family. I have been doing some soul searching of late and it has caused me to reevaluate my priorities. This is why I am writing this letter. I feel a need to inform all of you of the decisions that are the result of my evaluation. In a nut shell, I need to re-direct until I can bring things back into a proper balance. So what does this mean for you and for what we have begun at Roots of Faith. I insist and desire that things continue along the path that we have begun. My friends and "extended family" at Roots of Faith will continue to meet every Sabbath in the synagogue. Remember that Acts 15:21 says that Moses of old hath THEM that preach him every Sabbath in the synagogue. I have stressed to my group that this is not, nor should it ever become the Ross Nichols Show. Yes, I love to teach and will do so again, but have to prioritize things. The Roots of Faith family is full of mature and seeking souls that desire to study to show themselves approved unto God. This is an excellent opportunity for some of the natural leaders to step forward. I would ask that those of you who have been part of the synagogue without walls to continue to log in and listen every Saturday morning at 10:30 Central and even join in the dialogue that the group has made a part of what this is all about. It remains on track with the vision that I feel God gave me early on. To my knowledge there is no place that allows people to openly participate in the ancient art of dialogue. I have not abandoned them or any of you. I will be in close communication with my local group often. They have all become my closest friends in the world and we now love and respect each other deeply. As for me, I will seek to restore some balance in my home life. I want to take a deep breath, sweep my wife off her feet again (she probably wants me to begin in the kitchen with the broom), re-connect with my family and in the process I know in my heart that the movement will be advanced in many ways. By living the Torah way and walking it with my family I will establish a model (with God's help) that I can then share with all who care to learn. I am to make this my new focus. The Roots of our Faith are tied closely with families following the Way of Yehovah! I will continue to think globally but must make things right in my own tent first. I hope to find time to send out study notes on the weekly lessons, participate more in the Dialogue list, and even make some audio and video teachings from time to time. I hope and pray that you all understand my reasons for pulling back for a while. By allowing me this time, I will be able to be part of what God is calling this generation to do. The last verses of Malachi are most instructive in this regard. We are told to remember the Torah of Moses, and informed that Elijah will return before the coming great and terrible day of Yehovah to turn the heart of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to the fathers. The result of not uniting the heart of fathers with sons brings a curse. I seek to re-unite my heart with the hearts of my wife and children - as well as the rest of my family. Thanks to all of you for your continued support of what is going on in the synagogue without walls. Please continue to support this ministry. I will keep you posted. In the meantime, I will be posting some video teachings from our archives of past teachings on the new Bible teaching network (www.Arba4.com). I have a video up now and we are currently working on editing enough video for the next several weeks. If you have not checked this site out, I encourage you to do so. I also have some upcoming speaking engagements that I will be telling you about as the time approaches. I pray that balance and harmony become a focal point for all of us. The results have the potential to change the world - one family at a time. I will teach my children to pray and show them what a good and Godly family man looks like. Much shalom and many blessings - from my study, Ross Nichols _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080119/42babf33/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jan 19 01:52:15 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:52:15 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <011a01c85a70$35945650$643c66c9@bettygivin> Yes, this is incredible, Dave, truly amazing.and when you think about it on an even bigger scale, it becomes even more so. If you have seen the Fiddler on the Roof, you may recall the scene where Tevia's family is preparing for Shabbat.finally all is ready.and they all sit down at the table together and then the wife lights the Shabbat candles and they begin singing blessings to one another.and then it shows another house and another and another.with candles being lit, blessings being sung.all the voices blending together.it was beautiful. I think it might bless HaShem as he "looks down" and sees his children all over the world, ushering in Shabbat with the kindling of Sabbath candles and the singing of blessings.all the "lights" and all the voices around the world blending in.Wow! It looks like you and Sherry and family got a little taste of how it might be one day with all of us experiencing Shabbat together with HaShem as our light! So happy for you! Shabbat Shalom! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 1:06 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] (no subject) In a message dated 1/19/2008 1:02:46 A.M. Central Standard Time, dhcole1 at cox.net writes: Tonight my family and Denny Johnson's family along with some of their friends shared a Shabbat meal together. It was wonderful. We lit candles....read the bible, prayed, sang, said blessings to each other. Even his two dogs and my two "buddies" got along good. It was wonderful to meet some of his friends. we read proverbs 31 to our wives........oh did I mention that THEY were in Minnesota and we are In Louisiana? That's right we may have done the first live virtual Shabbat meal over the internet.......we did a video conference with his family sitting at their table and we did the same. we could see and hear them an like wise they us. It went pretty good. I write this in total amazement....... stunned dave This is incredible and what I have prayed for. Families DOING torah together - even though separated by such distance. Moses is smiling! Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080119/d571b2b4/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 09:20:18 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:20:18 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Family First In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d04e0430801190720n1c048e28rded7faa4e13185a8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Ross, We are relieved to read of your decision to concentrate on your family. You are a very talented and gifted man and we will all miss your teaching, but your HIGHEST calling beckons you. May your influence in your home and in the marketplace be fruitful for Hashem. We were listening to Israel National Radio this morning. A Light to the Nations was on and we were hearing Jeremy Gimpel tell about hosting shabbat in his home and inviting 6 "birthright" guests to share it with them. He made a powerful statement which reflects the Hebrew mindset. Something like this: "If you can influence even 1 person for the kingdom, you can die knowing that you have made a difference in the world." Inviting someone over to share your shabbat; being an responsible, honest, ethical and loving man on the job; being a faithful husband and father in your home may not seem like much compared to having an effective teaching ministry, but, I think, the faithful life of the regular guy or gal shines much brighter in the context of doing everyday life where EVERYONE can see it in contrast to the darkness of the world. You will make a difference whatever you do, and wherever you go, we know that Ross. Our short time getting to know you through your teaching has had a profound impact on us and our view of things. Thank you for that. We will continue to enjoy our new friendships with the Roots of Faith group and will listen in and chat. Like you, I have pulled back somewhat from the dialogue group as I have sensed my own imbalance developing. The folks here are kind and compassionate and I have learned valuable things from them, but there are only so many hours in a day. Every moment spent here, takes away from something or someone else. My wife and family are also of prime importance to me in the journey of life, and they long for more intimate time with me. We still love connecting with others and as Dave has already shared, we enjoyed shabbat with his family in a most unusual way last night. It was a blessing. Thanks, Dave, for helping to make this happen and greetings to Sherry, Mady, Mimi and the boys. So, Ross,... here's to you, your family, and your future! Lachaim! Love and Shalom, Denny (your friend in COLD Minnesota! (40 below windchill this morning! Brrrrrr!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080119/7b64965a/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Sat Jan 19 10:43:56 2008 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:43:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Family First In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801190720n1c048e28rded7faa4e13185a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801190720n1c048e28rded7faa4e13185a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Amen to the sentiments expressed in your post, Denny! Nice to hear from you. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Johnson To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Family First Dear Ross, We are relieved to read of your decision to concentrate on your family. You are a very talented and gifted man and we will all miss your teaching, but your HIGHEST calling beckons you. May your influence in your home and in the marketplace be fruitful for Hashem. We were listening to Israel National Radio this morning. A Light to the Nations was on and we were hearing Jeremy Gimpel tell about hosting shabbat in his home and inviting 6 "birthright" guests to share it with them. He made a powerful statement which reflects the Hebrew mindset. Something like this: "If you can influence even 1 person for the kingdom, you can die knowing that you have made a difference in the world." Inviting someone over to share your shabbat; being an responsible, honest, ethical and loving man on the job; being a faithful husband and father in your home may not seem like much compared to having an effective teaching ministry, but, I think, the faithful life of the regular guy or gal shines much brighter in the context of doing everyday life where EVERYONE can see it in contrast to the darkness of the world. You will make a difference whatever you do, and wherever you go, we know that Ross. Our short time getting to know you through your teaching has had a profound impact on us and our view of things. Thank you for that. We will continue to enjoy our new friendships with the Roots of Faith group and will listen in and chat. Like you, I have pulled back somewhat from the dialogue group as I have sensed my own imbalance developing. The folks here are kind and compassionate and I have learned valuable things from them, but there are only so many hours in a day. Every moment spent here, takes away from something or someone else. My wife and family are also of prime importance to me in the journey of life, and they long for more intimate time with me. We still love connecting with others and as Dave has already shared, we enjoyed shabbat with his family in a most unusual way last night. It was a blessing. Thanks, Dave, for helping to make this happen and greetings to Sherry, Mady, Mimi and the boys. So, Ross,... here's to you, your family, and your future! Lachaim! Love and Shalom, Denny (your friend in COLD Minnesota! (40 below windchill this morning! Brrrrrr!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080119/7a81ccd6/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sat Jan 19 19:01:22 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 20:01:22 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Apology to List Message-ID: I want to apologize to the UI List for having accidentally sent a personal correspondence through it, and have written to those involved privately. Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080119/a5738503/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 23:24:08 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:24:08 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801192124i3d9da882pd9f5ff3e75fa8554@mail.gmail.com> I have just a moment to send this email. I don't know if I will have the opportunity to get on again until tomorrow night. My husband and I are having a very serious discussion. Please pray that I conduct myself as Ha Shem would have me and to say the words that He would have me say. I don't want to rely on my own understanding, but that of the Father's. Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080119/98cfe8cb/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Jan 19 23:28:23 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:28:23 EST Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request Message-ID: Dear Kim, I'm with you...and more importantly - HaShem is with you, you are HIS faithful daughter. Be strong and have courage...I'll be praying for you, count on it! Remember to breath, and stay focused.... Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/8a91ded0/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jan 19 23:55:19 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:55:19 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801192124i3d9da882pd9f5ff3e75fa8554@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000501c85b29$0a2765c0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Kim, you have my prayers! May HaShem fill you with courage and strengthen your heart as he fills your mouth with words of wisdom. May you indeed "lean not on your own understanding." Proverbs 2:5-6. Much love, Mom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:24 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request I have just a moment to send this email. I don't know if I will have the opportunity to get on again until tomorrow night. My husband and I are having a very serious discussion. Please pray that I conduct myself as Ha Shem would have me and to say the words that He would have me say. I don't want to rely on my own understanding, but that of the Father's. Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080119/363b9d89/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Jan 20 00:15:13 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:15:13 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request References: <1c8dbb6e0801192124i3d9da882pd9f5ff3e75fa8554@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a001c85b2b$d1f40250$6400a8c0@davesbook> yes dave ----- Original Message ----- From: kim alvarado To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:24 PM Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request I have just a moment to send this email. I don't know if I will have the opportunity to get on again until tomorrow night. My husband and I are having a very serious discussion. Please pray that I conduct myself as Ha Shem would have me and to say the words that He would have me say. I don't want to rely on my own understanding, but that of the Father's. Kim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/5f0dc72b/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 00:30:41 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:30:41 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] prayer request In-Reply-To: <00a001c85b2b$d1f40250$6400a8c0@davesbook> References: <1c8dbb6e0801192124i3d9da882pd9f5ff3e75fa8554@mail.gmail.com> <00a001c85b2b$d1f40250$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801192230h4972a04cob78049150862f9f9@mail.gmail.com> Thank you, Dave. I am thankful that I got to get back on. Kim On Jan 20, 2008 12:15 AM, Dave Cole wrote: > yes > dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* kim alvarado > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:24 PM > *Subject:* [Dialogue] prayer request > > I have just a moment to send this email. I don't know if I will have the > opportunity to get on again until tomorrow night. My husband and I are > having a very serious discussion. Please pray that I conduct myself as Ha > Shem would have me and to say the words that He would have me say. I don't > want to rely on my own understanding, but that of the Father's. > > Kim > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/9a8cc517/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 20 01:25:02 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 01:25:02 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A MIDNIGHT BLESSING! Message-ID: <006601c85b35$92b52b00$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear friends, >From time to time, we all encounter tough times. For all of us who are going thru tough times now, I thought I might send a ray of light and encouragement by sharing a little story that I often reflect on when things are difficult. I think that we all know in our hearts that HaShem's promises are true, and that there is always light and hope ahead.and that when we feel lost, confused, or even trapped.that HaShem will come thru and open up the path before us. I think that this week's Torah portion is a good example of that.when the children of Israel were backed up against the sea with Pharaoh's army hot in pursuit, it seemed that they had nowhere to go.they cried out to G-d and He opened up the sea!!! If you take a look at the Hebrew in Exodus 15, called the Song of the Sea, the letters on the page form sort of a "Wall of Protection!" And the haftorah from Judges 5 is the Song of Deborah. Take a look at the Hebrew formation of letters on the page there as well. I have some ideas about these passages and other songs that I want to bring up.maybe tomorrow. But for tonight, I just wanted to share this little short story. Maybe it is a S.E. I wasn't familiar with that term until recently. I will let you be the judge. I have a photo in our study that is very meaningful to me. It was taken about 15 or so years ago during a time frame in our lives in which it was "very dark" for Roger and me. I was reading a book called 'Mashiach , The Principle of Mashiach and the Messainic Era in Jewish Law and Tradition' by Jacob Immanuel Schochet. All of a sudden, a spectrum of lights, like a RAINBOW, appeared across the page and illuminated the passage that I was reading. I couldn't believe my eyes.WOW!!! I called Roger and he hurriedly grabbed his camera, and took the photo. It was/is amazing! .the quote reference was from Tachuna, Nitzvayim: 1. I have copied it below. Note how it starts.it couldn't have been more fitting for the situation in our lives at that time, and from time to time, we go thru dark and difficult times again and again.but then there is always the light. "It is presently 'dark' for you, but the Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future illuminate for you as an everlasting light' (Isaiah 60:19) When will that be? When all of you will be a singular band.Israel will be redeemed when they shall be a singular band, as it is said, 'In those days and in that time, says G-d, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together..' (Jeremiah 50:4); and it is said, 'In those days, the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together from the land of the north to the land I have given as a legacy to your fathers' (Jeremiah 3:18). When they are bound together they shall receive the Face of the Shechinah." Shavuah tov all! Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/67625d62/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Jan 20 02:16:59 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:16:59 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] My most important prayer request of all Message-ID: <200801200817.m0K8H1sT015611@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/871e7898/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sun Jan 20 03:19:02 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 03:19:02 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A MIDNIGHT BLESSING! References: <006601c85b35$92b52b00$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <044301c85b45$80542b90$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> BEAUTIFUL, BETTY!!! LEORAH ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 1:25 AM Subject: [Dialogue] A MIDNIGHT BLESSING! Dear friends, From time to time, we all encounter tough times. For all of us who are going thru tough times now, I thought I might send a ray of light and encouragement by sharing a little story that I often reflect on when things are difficult. I think that we all know in our hearts that HaShem's promises are true, and that there is always light and hope ahead.and that when we feel lost, confused, or even trapped.that HaShem will come thru and open up the path before us. I think that this week's Torah portion is a good example of that.when the children of Israel were backed up against the sea with Pharaoh's army hot in pursuit, it seemed that they had nowhere to go.they cried out to G-d and He opened up the sea!!! If you take a look at the Hebrew in Exodus 15, called the Song of the Sea, the letters on the page form sort of a "Wall of Protection!" And the haftorah from Judges 5 is the Song of Deborah. Take a look at the Hebrew formation of letters on the page there as well. I have some ideas about these passages and other songs that I want to bring up.maybe tomorrow. But for tonight, I just wanted to share this little short story. Maybe it is a S.E. I wasn't familiar with that term until recently. I will let you be the judge. I have a photo in our study that is very meaningful to me. It was taken about 15 or so years ago during a time frame in our lives in which it was "very dark" for Roger and me. I was reading a book called 'Mashiach , The Principle of Mashiach and the Messainic Era in Jewish Law and Tradition' by Jacob Immanuel Schochet. All of a sudden, a spectrum of lights, like a RAINBOW, appeared across the page and illuminated the passage that I was reading. I couldn't believe my eyes.WOW!!! I called Roger and he hurriedly grabbed his camera, and took the photo. It was/is amazing! .the quote reference was from Tachuna, Nitzvayim: 1. I have copied it below. Note how it starts.it couldn't have been more fitting for the situation in our lives at that time, and from time to time, we go thru dark and difficult times again and again.but then there is always the light. "It is presently 'dark' for you, but the Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future illuminate for you as an everlasting light' (Isaiah 60:19) When will that be? When all of you will be a singular band.Israel will be redeemed when they shall be a singular band, as it is said, 'In those days and in that time, says G-d, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together..' (Jeremiah 50:4); and it is said, 'In those days, the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together from the land of the north to the land I have given as a legacy to your fathers' (Jeremiah 3:18). When they are bound together they shall receive the Face of the Shechinah." Shavuah tov all! Betty/Elisheva ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/e24a5d2e/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Jan 20 05:55:51 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:55:51 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results Message-ID: I give my permission if anyone wants to circulate this particular post. James Tabor +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Results of the Princeton Symposium Results on the Talpiot Tomb James Tabor (jesusdynasty.com/blog) Having just returned from Jerusalem I have only now had opportunity to work through the various media reports and Blogs on the Internet regarding the results of the Princeton Symposium discussion of the Talpiot tomb. Here are a few reflections in an effort to shed some ?light? on the ?heat.? 1. There was no official ?conclusion? made by the participants, nor were any polls taken, other than the agreement at the end that there should be further examination of the tomb itself in the future. My sense is that a few would say this tomb can not be the tomb of Jesus, but that the vast majority would say that although it might be possible, there is no compelling evidence, given what we now know or possibly can know, and for some, there is evidence pointing against such an identification. Since there are no bone reports, or apparently, the possibility of full DNA testing, we seem left with what we have. A very few of those who think it might be possible would go on to say it has a probability of being the Jesus family tomb. Still, to be fair here, of those who are not convinced, I would say most find the evidence in favor to be flimsy at best. Language here can be tricky of course. For example, Shimon Gibson said at the conclusion of the conference that based on all the evidence he ?does not think this is the Jesus tomb,? but that should not be taken to mean he would say it is impossible, which I have never heard him say. He simply, like most, does not find the evidence compelling enough to move to the ?probably? side of things. I am with the ?possible to likely? group, and it is not always easy to take positions that are in the minority, but my conclusions are based on my own sense of ?best evidence,? and I have published them in Near Eastern Archaeology. I also think there is more to be said about the DNA testing as well as the statistical studies, some of which was misunderstood, in my view at least, at the Symposium. I will be writing more on this in coming days. Lots of confusion comes at this point as people mix the matter of the ?site? of Talpiot, with what was said in the ?Lost Tomb of Jesus? film produced by Cameron and Jacobovici. I have urged, as much as possible, to separate consideration of the ?site? from the ?film,? but as it turned out that was often not possible, given the ways in which the film had generated lots of the issues we discussed (DNA tests, statistical studies, etc.). 2. The headline that the Symposium ?vindicated? the Jacobovici film is misleading and untrue and was apparently based on a misunderstanding of an interview in which Jacobovici said: ?We feel totally vindicated. My work with James Cameron was the catalyst for an international symposium that has finally considered the evidence and is opening the door for further research.? The truth is, the Symposium as a whole brought into question many important elements of the film and dealt with it rather critically. I think the word ?vindicated? was ill advised, but the context helps to put it in proper perspective. 3. The statement that Rut Gat, the widow of the excavator Yosi Gat, read at the close of the Symposium has grabbed a few headlines but what is causing great rancor is the charge that Jacobovici somehow orchestrated or even wrote her statement as a publicity stunt, and that her husband never said such a thing?namely that he thought the Talpiot tomb belonged to the Jesus family. No one I have talked to, including Charlesworth, had any idea what Ms. Gat might say, other than expressing thanks for remembering her husband, and Jacobovici has stated that he did not in any way shape her statement and was surprised himself when he first heard it. I think it is understandable but unfortunate that the Gat issue has taken center stage at a conference that otherwise has offered so much in terms of debate and information on the Talpiot tomb. After all, the views of the late excavator are interesting, but really offer nothing evidentially in terms of the academic evaluation of the tomb. Given the time and money Charlesworth put into the Symposium, I hope we can all look toward the substance of the conference itself, the published volume that will result, and leave personality and media issues behind. For that reason I have done no media interviews whatsoever in that I have not wanted to contribute to this misdirected flurry and confusion. What I find more interesting than Ms. Gat?s recollection is the source that editor Horovitz quoted in his Friday Jerusalem Post story, which I think refers, more correctly to the 1996 ?publicity? the tomb received as a result of the BBC film and was confused with the Gat matter: In the wake of Wednesday?s declaration by Mrs. Gat that her husband knew he?d found Jesus?s tomb, an expert who insisted on anonymity charged to the Post Thursday that Israel had deliberately ?covered up? the significance of the find for fear of the anti-Semitic backlash to which Mrs. Gat referred. ?The Jews have suffered for 2,000 years, being blamed for the death of Jesus,? the expert said. ?The last thing Israel needed was to find proof of Jesus?s earthly remains. Our relations with the Vatican would never have recovered.? Therefore, he said, Gat and other senior archeologists and experts decided they would reject any suggestion that the coincidence of apparent Jesus-related names on the ossuaries in the tomb was significant. ?When that combination of names came up, it was like winning the lottery,? this expert said. ?But it was agreed that the ?Jesus talk? would be denied, and that it would be argued that the names were extremely common and their presence in a single Jerusalem tomb thus statistically unimportant. Mrs. Gat told the truth,? he said, ?because she?s not a politician.? My understanding is that this ?expert? was involved in the meetings and deliberations on this matter, that they involved IAA meetings called by late director Drori, but that this individual feels in the present atmosphere he can not agree to be identified. Unlike Gibson, quoted in the Post story, I would not characterize such things as ?conspiracy? but simply a matter of practical fact?how could Israel best handle the unbridled speculations that would result as a result of the publication of the names in the tomb, especially in the media. My hope is in a new atmosphere the full story can emerge, but it looks like that won?t be soon. In any event I want to honor and thank Prof. James Charlesworth for all his hard work in making the Symposium possible and being willing to bring together in the same room all those who had been involved, regardless of emotions and passions. The concrete results of the conference lie ahead, both in new investigation and the publishing of the papers of this Symposium, to be published next year by Eerdman?s Press. This product will prove more lasting and enduring than media reports for a day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/e783f667/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 20 05:56:07 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:56:07 EST Subject: [Dialogue] My most important prayer request of all Message-ID: Shalom Steve - Count me in! I am actually taking three vacation days this week - today, tomorrow & Wednesday, and have planned extra time for study and tefila (prayer). Seems like good timing to me :-) Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/4e0da8ac/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 20 05:59:28 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:59:28 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results Message-ID: Shalom James - Thanks for the updates; they're very appreciated! Try to get some rest, you must be exhausted. B'Ahava, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/0c1f0949/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 07:35:05 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:35:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My most important prayer request of all In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801200535u2dbef3a2pa0b88529a32c12de@mail.gmail.com> Me too Kim On Jan 20, 2008 5:56 AM, wrote: > Shalom Steve - > > Count me in! I am actually taking three vacation days this week - > today, tomorrow & Wednesday, and have planned extra time for study and > tefila (prayer). Seems like good timing to me :-) Thank you for bringing > this to our attention. > > Best regards, > > *Hanoch *the Lil Lion of Judah > > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/3c99e240/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 09:22:25 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:22:25 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A MIDNIGHT BLESSING! In-Reply-To: <006601c85b35$92b52b00$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <006601c85b35$92b52b00$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: Betty, the description here of the rainbow appearing on the passage of your book is profound. It fills one with hope that no matter what, HaShem's Plan IS coming to pass. He was promising with His rainbow that those words illuminated on that page were TRUE. Thank you so much for sharing this most precious of treasures. The beauty of it is that those words are true for each of us. We can now all cling to that promise HaShem gave to you through this SE. I'm blown away by the magnitude of this intervention of a loving Father into the situation of his children. I don't know if you have filled out a form from Steve's www.uniteourheat.org for this SE, but I want to encourage you that if you have not done so, please do it now! This is one of the most striking examples of HaShem speaking to those who are being Regathered I have ever seen! I am going to save it in my Israel file on the computer, and read it again and again. What a breathtaking visit of the Divine! Because you were so blessed, we are blessed through you. Your observation of the Hebrew Words' formation in the Song of Devorah and the Song of the Sea is extremely interesting. I don't think I would have ever noticed the WALL OF PROTECTION they seem to form. How very beautiful that idea is! Thank you, precious friend, Pat From: bkgivin at charter.netTo: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgDate: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 01:25:02 -0600Subject: [Dialogue] A MIDNIGHT BLESSING! Dear friends, >From time to time, we all encounter tough times. For all of us who are going thru tough times now, I thought I might send a ray of light and encouragement by sharing a little story that I often reflect on when things are difficult. I think that we all know in our hearts that HaShem?s promises are true, and that there is always light and hope ahead?and that when we feel lost, confused, or even trapped?that HaShem will come thru and open up the path before us. I think that this week?s Torah portion is a good example of that?when the children of Israel were backed up against the sea with Pharaoh?s army hot in pursuit, it seemed that they had nowhere to go?they cried out to G-d and He opened up the sea!!! If you take a look at the Hebrew in Exodus 15, called the Song of the Sea, the letters on the page form sort of a ?Wall of Protection!? And the haftorah from Judges 5 is the Song of Deborah. Take a look at the Hebrew formation of letters on the page there as well. I have some ideas about these passages and other songs that I want to bring up?maybe tomorrow. But for tonight, I just wanted to share this little short story. Maybe it is a S.E. I wasn?t familiar with that term until recently. I will let you be the judge. I have a photo in our study that is very meaningful to me. It was taken about 15 or so years ago during a time frame in our lives in which it was ?very dark? for Roger and me. I was reading a book called ?Mashiach , The Principle of Mashiach and the Messainic Era in Jewish Law and Tradition? by Jacob Immanuel Schochet. All of a sudden, a spectrum of lights, like a RAINBOW, appeared across the page and illuminated the passage that I was reading. I couldn?t believe my eyes?WOW!!! I called Roger and he hurriedly grabbed his camera, and took the photo. It was/is amazing! ?the quote reference was from Tachuna, Nitzvayim: 1. I have copied it below. Note how it starts?it couldn?t have been more fitting for the situation in our lives at that time, and from time to time, we go thru dark and difficult times again and again?but then there is always the light? ?It is presently ?dark? for you, but the Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future illuminate for you as an everlasting light? (Isaiah 60:19) When will that be? When all of you will be a singular band?Israel will be redeemed when they shall be a singular band, as it is said, ?In those days and in that time, says G-d, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together..? (Jeremiah 50:4); and it is said, ?In those days, the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together from the land of the north to the land I have given as a legacy to your fathers? (Jeremiah 3:18). When they are bound together they shall receive the Face of the Shechinah.? Shavuah tov all! Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/692502ad/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Jan 20 09:31:20 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:31:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A MIDNIGHT BLESSING! In-Reply-To: <006601c85b35$92b52b00$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <006601c85b35$92b52b00$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: Betty, I think I have the photo if you want a copy sent electronically. Wasn't the "rainbow" though caused by light shining through a crystal or prism--or am I remembering wrong? James On Jan 20, 2008, at 2:25 AM, Betty Givin wrote: > Dear friends, > > From time to time, we all encounter tough times. For all of us who > are going thru tough times now, I thought I might send a ray of > light and encouragement by sharing a little story that I often > reflect on when things are difficult. > > > I have a photo in our study that is very meaningful to me. It was > taken about 15 or so years ago during a time frame in our lives in > which it was ?very dark? for Roger and me. I was reading a book > called ?Mashiach , The Principle of Mashiach and the Messainic Era > in Jewish Law and Tradition? by Jacob Immanuel Schochet. All of a > sudden, a spectrum of lights, like a RAINBOW, appeared across the > page and illuminated the passage that I was reading. I couldn?t > believe my eyes?WOW!!! I called Roger and he hurriedly grabbed his > camera, and took the photo. It was/is amazing! ?the quote reference > was from Tachuna, Nitzvayim: 1. I have copied it below. Note how > it starts?it couldn?t have been more fitting for the situation in > our lives at that time, and from time to time, we go thru dark and > difficult times again and again?but then there is always the light? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/95fb0acb/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 20 10:58:39 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:58:39 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Tu B'Shevat & remembering Gush Katif Message-ID: Shalom to all, Below I've pasted a way to observe Tu B'Shevat, while commemorating the wonderful communities of Gush Katif...May they be rebuilt soon! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah The Katif Forests Forever: Buy and Plant Testimonial Trees, and Help Us Finance the Commemoration of Gush Katif Click here for virtual planting - http://new.katif.net/tmp/2b/index.php In the forests of katif.net we plant trees during the shemita year. The two-and-a-half years that have passed since our homes in Gush Katif were destroyed have not blurred our memories or erased the scenes from our minds. Katif.net, the official portal of Gush Katif, has over the years worked to preserve the memory and spirit of Gush Katif and has provided our members and the new communities built throughout the land a platform where they could express themselves. This year, a year of shemita when the fields are left fallow, we invite you to enter the ?Forests of Katif? site, on Tu Bi?Shevat and on any other day, and plant virtual trees everywhere in the towns and villages of Gush Katif, commemorated in beautiful aerial photographs in their full splendor, one week before they were destroyed in August 2005. When you plant virtual trees in the forests of katif.net you give us energy to continue our work. Click here for virtual planting - http://new.katif.net/tmp/2b/index.php **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/73a84b1b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 20 11:12:04 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:12:04 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A resource for articles about Israel Message-ID: Shalom to all, Pasted below is a great email publication with links to dozens of articles about Israel. I thought you might enjoy checking it out! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah THINK-ISRAEL To receive free announcements of new issues of Think-Israel: subscribe at think-israel.org To unsubscribe from the Announcement List: unsubscribe at think-israel.org To send comments/articles to Think-Israel: comments at think-israel.org We enjoy hearing from you. We appreciate you telling your friends about us. THINK-ISRAEL features essays, analyses and commentaries that provide context for current events in Israel. We try to make sense of what's going on. The war Islamists are waging against Israel and the West is a top priority. We have new articles on the _Think Israel_ (http://www.think-israel.org/) website. Please take a look. This is what's in the November-December 2007 issue. You can access any article from the home page of _http://www.think-israel.org/_ (http://www.think-israel.org/) by scrolling down to its introduction. This has the advantage of providing context for the article. Or you can go directly to the article by clicking its highlighted area in this email. Pre-Annapolis warnings _No Peace, No Peace Plans, No Price For Peace -- A Short Guide To Those Obsessed With Peace_ (http://www.think-israel.org/sharon.nopeaceplans.html) by Moshe Sharon _A New Definition Of 'Peace'_ (http://www.think-israel.org/nevada.peace.html) by Michelle Nevada _The Scientific Prelude To An Ode To Annapolis_ (http://www.think-israel.org/haetzni.preludetoannapolis.html) by Elyakim Haetzni _Bloggers On The Upcoming Annapolis Summit_ (http://www.think-israel.org/lipkin.annapolisbloggers.html) by Bernice Lipkin Annapolis aftermath _Gang-Rape In Annapolis, Saudi Style_ (http://www.think-israel.org/gaffney.gangrape.html) by Frank J. Gaffney, Jr. _Un Machinations Against Israel_ (http://www.think-israel.org/lasky.unmachinations.html) by Ed Lasky _Culture Of Kvetch _ (http://www.think-israel.org/honig.kvetch.html) by Sarah Honig _The Looming Danger Of Annapolis_ (http://www.think-israel.org/katz.annapolisdanger.html) by Shmuel Katz _The Condoleezza Story_ (http://www.think-israel.org/sivan.rice.html) by Emmanuel Sivan _Farce. Burying The Bush Doctrine In Annapolis_ (http://www.think-israel.org/mccarthy.farce.html) by Andrew C. McCarthy _But To Do And Die_ (http://www.think-israel.org/honig.doanddie.html) by Sarah Honig _No Lasting Peace ?? The Illusions Of Annapolis _ (http://www.think-israel.org/peters.nolastingpeace.html) by Ralph Peters _After Annapolis, What?_ (http://www.think-israel.org/glick.afterannapolis.html) by Edward Bernard Glick Stories from the Gush Katif refugees _Goodbye To All That_ (http://www.think-israel.org/saperstein.goodbye.html) by Moshe Saperstein _Thirty Years In Thirty Minutes_ (http://www.think-israel.org/tucker.30years.html) by Anita Tucker Select one: we get our facts and policy and ideology straight and work to save Israel or we do nothing and let Israel's enemies dismember it. _Jerusalem Is A Jewish Issue_ (http://www.think-israel.org/belman.jerusalemjewishissue.html) by Ted Belman _Smashing The Demographic Demon_ (http://www.think-israel.org/shilo.demographics.html) by Emanuel Shilo _The Triumph Of Legal Defeatism_ (http://www.think-israel.org/glick.legaldefeatism.html) by Caroline Glick _Time To End The Charade_ (http://www.think-israel.org/mansur.charade.html) by Salim Mansur _The Conspiracy To Divide Jerusalem_ (http://www.think-israel.org/evans.dividejerusalem.html) by Michael Evans _The Case For Population Exchange_ (http://www.think-israel.org/exchange.html) by Lewis Lipkin _A Win-Win Solution To The Arab-Israeli Conflict_ (http://www.think-israel.org/neuwirth.winwin.html) by Rachel Neuwirth _A New Paradigm For The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: From The Political To THE HUMANITARIAN_ (http://www.think-israel.org/sherman.newparadigm.html) by Martin Sherman The ubiquitous Islamist _Knowing The Enemy_ (http://www.think-israel.org/cohen.knowingtheenemy.html) by Ariel Cohen _These Boots Are Gonna Walk All Over You_ (http://www.think-israel.org/coughlin.lisbontreaty.html) by Professor Anthony Coughlan _The Parisian Intifada And "The Project"_ (http://www.think-israel.org/poole.mbproject.html) by Patrick Poole _'Radical Islam' Is Islam_ (http://www.think-israel.org/zak.radicalislam.html) by Steven Zak _Hudnah And Sulh Do Not Mean "Peace"_ (http://www.think-israel.org/sharon.peaceinarabic.html) by Moshe Sharon _Islam And CNN's Superstar Christiane Amanpour_ (http://www.think-israel.org/navrozov.islamicpeace.html) by Lev Navrozov Introducing sharia into British banking _Shariah's Trojan Horse_ (http://www.think-israel.org/gaffney.shariahtrojanhorse.html) by Frank J. Gaffney, Jr. _Islamic Banking In Britain_ (http://www.think-israel.org/christofi.britishislamicbanking.html) by Helena Christofi _Global Banks Adopting Islam_ (http://www.think-israel.org/wood.islamicbanking.html) by Patrick M. Wood Santa's little helpers -- the UN and the upcoming Durban conference _UN Plans Another Durban Racism Conference For 2009_ (http://www.think-israel.org/tobin.durban2009.html) by Rebecca Tobin _Righting Rights Wrongs_ (http://www.think-israel.org/steinberg.ngosanddurbin2009.html) by Gerald Steinberg _The Un Launches Durban II_ (http://www.think-israel.org/bayefsky.unlaunchesdurban2.html) by Anne Bayefsky Islamic Jihad aiders and abetters -- the media and universities _Rewriting History: Factchecking Levy_ (http://www.think-israel.org/pollak.rewritinghistory.html) by Noah Pollak _Jewish Anti-Semitism: A Reaction To The Removal Of A Mezuzah In Hebron_ (http://www.think-israel.org/wilder.jewishantisemitism.html) by David Wilder _Ideology Over Integrity In Academe_ (http://www.think-israel.org/russell.columbiaideology.html) by James R. Russell _These Records Are From Ancient Times_ (http://www.think-israel.org/berlyn.ancientrecords.html) by Patricia Berlyn 1947 -- Dividing the Land of Israel _An Unassuming Patriarch_ (http://www.think-israel.org/kramer.margalit.html) by Steve Kramer _Is November 29 A Day To Celebrate?_ (http://www.think-israel.org/glick.generalassemblyresolution.html) by Caroline Glick _The Communist Roots Of Palestinian Terrorism_ (http://www.think-israel.org/meirlevi.pacommunistroots.html) by David Meir-Levi And, finally, the Readers' Blog-Ed page. The monthly Blog-Ed page is updated every few days. You can click on the Blog-Eds List (middle item, top Blue Banner), find any author/title posted, click and go directly to that blog-ed. We provide direct links to websites that supply accurate background information and news relating to Israel. Do look at the web site. And please, if you have a blog-ed piece or a comment or commentary, contact the website. Write to comments at think-israel.org Pieces for THINK-ISRAEL should be informative and accurate. Fortunately, those of us who are pro-Israel can show our love of Israel without distorting the truth. We don't need to play by the rules laid down by the Arab-favoring media, which distort the news and omit important items of information. Bernice Lipkin Editor, Think-Israel **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/3cd537d3/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 20 11:26:37 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:26:37 EST Subject: [Dialogue] A quote for Sunday, 13 Shevat, 5768 Message-ID: Shalom to all, This is one of my favorite parts of Navi (the Prophets); may we all merit being part of this... Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah "The House of Jacob shall dispossess those that dispossed them. The House of Jacob shall be fire, and the House of Joseph flame, And the House of Esau shall be straw; They shall burn it and devour it, and no survivor shall be left of the House of Esau - for the L-rd has spoken. Obadiah 1:17 (partial) & 18 **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/b5643574/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 20 11:36:28 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:36:28 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Photos of Tu B'Shevat preparations in Jerusalem Message-ID: Shalom to all - For those who don't regularly read Arutz 7 (_www.israelnationalnews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ) , well, first of all - you should! But I wanted to share a link that will bring you to a photo essay of preparations for Tu B'Shevat - Israeli style in Machane Yehuda, THE shuk (marketplace) in Jerusalem. Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _Click here: Photo Essay: Tu B'Shvat Preparations at the Shuk - A7 Exclusive Features - Israel News - Arutz Sheva_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124967) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/52ff3e7e/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 20 12:58:24 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:58:24 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A MIDNIGHT BLESSING! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <014101c85b96$6f68a490$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thanks James, that would be great if you could scan the photo and send it out electronically. The "rainbow" was in actuality two separate streams of light, caused by light shining thru our back patio door and reflecting thru the 2 stained glass "doors" which depicted the 12 tribes! These were the doors that originally came from Kehilot Tikvat Yisrael (Joe Good's congregation), and he suggested that they be given to Temple Sinai and Roots of Faith which we are anxious to do. Across the top, were the words, in Hebrew and English.THE LORD ROARS FROM ZION GATHER THE REMNANT! This coupled with the message of the words on the page made it even more significant! At the time, the full impact of it hit me as being very significant, but as I was recalling the story late last night, my mind was foggy and I forgot to mentions the doors, tribes and the message. I guess that goes to show that we should write special things of significance down at the time of the occurrence, as Steve Mathe has suggested, lest we forget. I am so glad that you reminded me of that! The curious thing about it is that Roger and I often sat in that particular spot to read and you would have thought that seeing a "rainbow" or spectrum of light across a page would almost be a daily occurrence, at least if the sun was shining, but that was the ONE and ONLY time that it occurred! "It is presently 'dark' for you, but the Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future illuminate for you as an everlasting light' (Isaiah 60:19) When will that be? When all of you will be a singular band.Israel will be redeemed when they shall be a singular band, as it is said, 'In those days and in that time, says G-d, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together..' (Jeremiah 50:4); and it is said, 'In those days, the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together from the land of the north to the land I have given as a legacy to your fathers' (Jeremiah 3:18). When they are bound together they shall receive the Face of the Shechinah." Again, thanks James for the reminder and please do scan the photo and pass it on.I think it is very significant for us at this present time! Shavua tov, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A MIDNIGHT BLESSING! Betty, I think I have the photo if you want a copy sent electronically. Wasn't the "rainbow" though caused by light shining through a crystal or prism--or am I remembering wrong? James On Jan 20, 2008, at 2:25 AM, Betty Givin wrote: Dear friends, >From time to time, we all encounter tough times. For all of us who are going thru tough times now, I thought I might send a ray of light and encouragement by sharing a little story that I often reflect on when things are difficult. I have a photo in our study that is very meaningful to me. It was taken about 15 or so years ago during a time frame in our lives in which it was "very dark" for Roger and me. I was reading a book called 'Mashiach , The Principle of Mashiach and the Messainic Era in Jewish Law and Tradition' by Jacob Immanuel Schochet. All of a sudden, a spectrum of lights, like a RAINBOW, appeared across the page and illuminated the passage that I was reading. I couldn't believe my eyes.WOW!!! I called Roger and he hurriedly grabbed his camera, and took the photo. It was/is amazing! .the quote reference was from Tachuna, Nitzvayim: 1. I have copied it below. Note how it starts.it couldn't have been more fitting for the situation in our lives at that time, and from time to time, we go thru dark and difficult times again and again.but then there is always the light. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/6ecd6b7d/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 20 13:27:28 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:27:28 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Photos of Tu B'Shevat preparations in Jerusalem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <017601c85b9a$7eee3250$643c66c9@bettygivin> Yes, thank-you, Hanoch! These photos are absolutely lovely.absolutely the most produce that I think I have ever seen.but what else would one expect from Eretz Yisrael, right??? I actually had the privilege of attending a Tu B'Shevat Seder this morning at our synagogue. It was small as there were only about 10 of us, but it was very worthwhile. The rabbi kept stressing kavanah (intent). I I know it is actually not until tomorrow night and Tuesday, but nevertheless, it was offered, and so I went and benefited from it. Afterwards, the kids planted a tree (ok in the Diaspora, right?), and I had the opportunity to help a bit with their seder. It was a blessing for all.a delightful time; I learned a few things that I did not know before. Hopefully later this afternoon I can share a bit. Again thanks for the photos, Betty/Elisheva BTW, I think a number of us are already reading Arutz 7, but to those who are not, I would like to add my recommendation to yours! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:36 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Photos of Tu B'Shevat preparations in Jerusalem Shalom to all - For those who don't regularly read Arutz 7 ( www.israelnationalnews.com ) , well, first of all - you should! But I wanted to share a link that will bring you to a photo essay of preparations for Tu B'Shevat - Israeli style in Machane Yehuda, THE shuk (marketplace) in Jerusalem. Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Click here: Photo Essay: Tu B'Shvat Preparations at the Shuk - A7 Exclusive Features - Israel News - Arutz Sheva Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/e41b66f0/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 20 17:38:08 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:38:08 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My most important prayer request of all In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0801200535u2dbef3a2pa0b88529a32c12de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01c501c85bbd$83822470$643c66c9@bettygivin> I will be praying as well, Steve. Thank-you for bringing this important time of Tu B'Shevat to our attention. I am reminded of this powerful verse attributed to King Solomon. If My people, upon whom My name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. II Chron. 7:14 Shalom, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:35 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My most important prayer request of all Me too Kim On Jan 20, 2008 5:56 AM, wrote: Shalom Steve - Count me in! I am actually taking three vacation days this week - today, tomorrow & Wednesday, and have planned extra time for study and tefila (prayer). Seems like good timing to me :-) Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/6c4ade21/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 20 18:38:28 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:38:28 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Photographs of Israel in 1850 and their ramifications Message-ID: Shalom to all, I just got home a little while ago, after seeing a fascinating exhibition of photographs at the Center for Jewish History, in Manhattan. The Center, actually houses five separate (and different!) Jewish museum's under one roof (only in New York, huh?). The exhibit I went to see was part of the Yeshiva University Museum, and was entitled: "Picturing Jerusalem: James Graham and Mendel Siness, Photographers." First of all, these were all photos taken in the 1850's, which in and of itself would make it interesting, but there's an even more intriguing story of how these "lost" photographs were rediscovered. It seems that someone in Minnesota was cleaning out old junk from their attic, and came across this incredible find. The photographs were mainly of Jerusalem (clearly not the Jerusalem we see today), but other parts of the country as well. Mark Twain described his visit to the "Holy Land" (within about 2 decades of these photos) as a barren, dusty, largely uninhabited wasteland. The pictures of Bethlehem and Shechem (called 'Nablus' by the Arabs, 'cause they can't pronounce a 'P' and the Romans had renamed Shechem in honor of their native 'Naples' - didn't know that factoid, did ya?) are the most striking. They are both tiny, little hamlets with few buildings and a teeny, tiny population. The photographic evidence doesn't lie...it was only when the Jewish people began returning to reclaim Eretz Yisrael, beginning in the later decades of the 19th Century that the 'neighboring' arabs from Syria, Jordan etc (later called 'Palestinians by the media of our generation) began migrating to Israel in search of jobs as laborers, etc. This arab immigration pattern is extensively documented in an amazing book everyone should have on their shelves: >From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over Palestine (Paperback) by _Joan Peters_ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/002-0904848-8920855?_encoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Joan%20Pete rs) (Author) (see Amazon.com for CHEAP used copies). As one reviewer wrote: "Peters spent 7 years searching Arab, United Nations, League of Nations, British, French, Israeli, Turkish and Ottoman and other records. This book, with more than 1,800 citations, should be required reading for every Middle East reporter. Peters shows that for 70 years before Israel's independence, there was considerable Arab immigration INTO Palestine--" The story of the book itself is fascinating - the author worked for the Carter administration (when peanut head was President), and was given the task of PROVING that the Jews had no legal right to the Land of Israel. Her honest, unbiased research showed otherwise.... And now Shechem is overrun with arabs, who destroyed and defiled the grave of Yosef HaTzadik (Joseph the Rightious)....and those liars claim they lived their forever, right - 'from time immemorial,' which is where the book got its name, BTW.... What a reminder of media spins..... Another time I'll tell you about the exhibit there (from the American Jewish Historical Society) - "Jewish Chaplains at War: Unsung Heroes of the "Greatest Generation," 1941-45." Erev Tov (Good Evening), Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/a895cda9/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Jan 20 19:17:16 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:17:16 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] most important prayer date correction In-Reply-To: <200801200817.m0K8H1sT015611@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200801200817.m0K8H1sT015611@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <200801210117.m0L1HCSQ032655@mail117c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/c4731231/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jan 20 19:20:45 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:20:45 EST Subject: [Dialogue] AMAZING art site Message-ID: Shalom to all, I wanted to make you all aware of an AMAZING, one of a kind museum in Israel - the Museum of Psalms. There is a unique illustration for every, single one of the tehillim - they're gorgeous! And you can buy them online, if you won't be in Israel soon. Recently, I bought the book with all the illustrations (too heavy to bring back directly from Israel), and I have several framed prints in my office. They're unique, please don't miss a chance to check out something truly original! See the link below.... _Click here: museum_ (http://www.museumofpsalms.com/) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/45d8b66a/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 19:27:20 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:27:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] most important prayer date correction In-Reply-To: <200801210117.m0L1HCSQ032655@mail117c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200801200817.m0K8H1sT015611@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> <200801210117.m0L1HCSQ032655@mail117c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: This is so awesome, Steve! Baurch HaShem for this auspicious date: Jamuary 22!!!! May we be empowered and guided by the Ruach HaKodesh! Pat Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:17:16 -0800To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgFrom: eliasaph at uniteourheart.comSubject: Re: [Dialogue] most important prayer date correctionGang, To err is human, and I need to correct a date below: the correct date is Tuesday (Tu B'shvat) is January 22, 2008. (not the 21st) All, I want to see EVERYONE praying for the Ruach as never before.... this is IT, Gang, This is IT!!! We, (ourselves, our leaders, and all those in the movement), got to do this to be empowered and guided by the Ruach.... Rabbi Greenbaum reinforced this task in today's class. Our need is great, the auspicious date is here, and we are ready to come before HaShem en masse... let's do it TOGETHER on this date!StevePs. BTW, we can start early praying for this, like NOW.At 12:16 AM 1/20/2008, you wrote: Dear Friends, Am writing this memo which to date I consider the most important I ever sent out to any list that I may be on. It is a request for all of us to pray for and request the outpouring of the holy Spirit of God, on us in the regathering movement, on all the Tribes of Israel, all other seekers of God, and His Ancient Straight Paths. This past Sunday, Rabbi Avraham Greenbaum, in his Sunday live-from-Jerusalem chat-room class, http://www.azamra.org has informed his students that Tu B'shvat, the 15th of the month of Shevat, the beginning of the new year for trees, is important not just for agricultural reasons and taking care of God's creation. The Tu B'shvat this year falling on Tuesday January 21, is not just the "new year" for trees and our concerns for them and their place in the world. According to tradition, it is an auspicious time to ask for the Ruach HaKodesh, the holy Spirit of God to be sent to us. Considering the grave state of the world affairs, multiple possible disasters looming on the horizon, and the remarkable developments in the "regathering movement," am also of the opinion, that we use this auspicious time accordingly and do as the "tradition" of our brother Yehudah implies. It is time. It is time, not just because of my pet project to marshal the prayers of all of us to build the "Mishkan of Prayers" for the Shechinah to dwell in. Am of the opinion, that even if I never mentioned that, it would be the time NOW because the afore-mentioned reasons, for all of us to contribute whatever we can prayers-wise to entreat the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to empower and inspire us by His holy Spirit to do our parts in the Work He has laid out for us. This is how the Mishkan was built, where everyone brought what they could, as they were moved to do so. If "God inhabits the praises of Israel," then asking NOW for the Guidance of the Shechinah to be restored to us is in order. According to the Prophets this is going to happen sooner or later. We need it now. We can start asking now, and especially on Tuesday Jan. 21, Tu B'shvat.Please ask all appropriate friends to "contribute" their prayers also. Yours for the Restoration, Steve"Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/45866e4b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jan 20 20:53:15 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:53:15 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] AMAZING art site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <021001c85bd8$c540f010$643c66c9@bettygivin> Hanoch, these are absolutely beautiful! I love the gorgeous blending of colors and the way so many of them have the Hebrew letters interwoven in the painting. John, I know that Carin would love these! Thanks so much for sharing! Batty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:21 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] AMAZING art site Shalom to all, I wanted to make you all aware of an AMAZING, one of a kind museum in Israel - the Museum of Psalms. There is a unique illustration for every, single one of the tehillim - they're gorgeous! And you can buy them online, if you won't be in Israel soon. Recently, I bought the book with all the illustrations (too heavy to bring back directly from Israel), and I have several framed prints in my office. They're unique, please don't miss a chance to check out something truly original! See the link below.... Click here: museum Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/0faa1bdb/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 22:53:24 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (patricia robbins) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:53:24 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] AMAZING art site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I love the sun series!!! From: YoungBarzel at aol.comDate: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:20:45 -0500To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.orgSubject: [Dialogue] AMAZING art site Shalom to all, I wanted to make you all aware of an AMAZING, one of a kind museum in Israel - the Museum of Psalms. There is a unique illustration for every, single one of the tehillim - they're gorgeous! And you can buy them online, if you won't be in Israel soon. Recently, I bought the book with all the illustrations (too heavy to bring back directly from Israel), and I have several framed prints in my office. They're unique, please don't miss a chance to check out something truly original! See the link below.... Click here: museum Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080120/c9448624/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 21 06:12:03 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:12:03 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for 14 Shevat 5768 Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, a quote from the Lekarev Report... He who guards his mouth and his tongue, preserves his soul from troubles. Proverbs 21:23 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/114cb177/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 06:51:55 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:51:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Thought for Today Message-ID: <794047.44861.qm@web37511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Your throne, O Elohim, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Your kingdom" Tehillim 45:6 Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/8ad5186b/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 07:29:04 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:29:04 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue]: The place of work in our lives Message-ID: <1d04e0430801210529m6cd8cd4ape43d31e89c6a1270@mail.gmail.com> Good morning all. It's off to work again for another week. Hope you are looking forward to yours with anticipation for what Hashem has in store for you. To help prepare you, I am providing 1 link of many that I know that focuses on our work life. Enjoy! and Shavua Tov! http://www.avodahinstitute.com/integrating/integrating.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/b95217a2/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Mon Jan 21 09:35:57 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:35:57 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] duel mailings Message-ID: <77A23D3BAD1F4D64BEEE8EE453A5DBDB@DickLPC> I have a question ?? why am I getting the same message through two different sources when one will do???? One from (dialogue) and one from (uilist). It makes for alot of MAIL??? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/5323ae4f/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Jan 21 09:46:46 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:46:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] duel mailings In-Reply-To: <77A23D3BAD1F4D64BEEE8EE453A5DBDB@DickLPC> References: <77A23D3BAD1F4D64BEEE8EE453A5DBDB@DickLPC> Message-ID: The lists are totally separate and that means that people are posting on both, to reach both groups, and as long as you subscribe to both you will get everything. There is no way to control that and some messages I think people feel are generic (like this one, which I will post to both, since you wrote to both!). the UI is a private list, confidential, to allow all sorts of dialogue among folks to know one anther. The Dialogue list is Ross' public outreach. Anyone, and I mean anyone, can join... Best, James What is the temp up there? It is 18 here...probably warm to you! On Jan 21, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Dick L wrote: > I have a question ?? why am I getting the same message through two > different sources when one will do???? One from (dialogue) and > one from (uilist). > It makes for alot of MAIL??? > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/f2e370f5/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 21 10:54:24 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:54:24 EST Subject: [Dialogue]: The place of work in our lives Message-ID: Hey Denny - Good to "see" you! Personally, I think the balance between work and family is an ongoing struggle; and one that is never truly resolved. Years ago, when I worked for Johnson & Johnson, I was placed on the 'mommy track,' since it was clear that my children were my priority. I declined positions that would have required me to move, and at times, missed days when my children were ill, and I couldn't get my mom (Of Blessed Memory) to fill in for me. But the 'balance' in life shifts on particular days, and at particular times....but there are always difficult choices, and decisions to be made. As the Sea Witch said in the Little Mermaid: "Life's full of tough choices, isn't it?" A movie I only watched on video about 75 times... :-) Thanks for passing on the link. Stay warm, my friend! Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/565f070d/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 21 12:29:39 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:29:39 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue]: The place of work in our lives In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801210529m6cd8cd4ape43d31e89c6a1270@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <02e901c85c5b$95c0d0c0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Thank you, Denny for providing this website regarding "avodah." It is truly amazing to think of the possibilities of truly integrating HaShem with our work and service to him.and actually involving HaShem in everything we do, even tasting and eating.that was actually the central message that comes down from the mystics as far as the essence of celebrating Tu B'Shevat (The Festival of Trees). Maybe more on that later. or perhaps Hanoch would have something to offer. I think that we in the United States are so prone to compartmentalize our lives.when HaShem calls upon us to integrate our lives, giving all of ourselves and what we do, including our "avodah" as service to Him. Might I just add, that for those of you who are currently employed, may you be thankful and may you be blessed with a good week in anticipation with what HaShem has in store for you. Even though Roger and I are still not currently employed (except for my substitute teaching whenever a job comes up), I say that with a full heart for all of you. I don't mean to be redundant in continuing to ask for prayer in our job search, but as the time goes on (over a year now), every once and a while, I feel like I need to "suck up my pride" and make that request again. I know that HaShem will come thru for us.it is just a matter of time. Blessings and Shavua Tov to all, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Denny Johnson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 7:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue]: The place of work in our lives Good morning all. It's off to work again for another week. Hope you are looking forward to yours with anticipation for what Hashem has in store for you. To help prepare you, I am providing 1 link of many that I know that focuses on our work life. Enjoy! and Shavua Tov! http://www.avodahinstitute.com/integrating/integrating.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/f8ec86b6/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 14:33:12 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:33:12 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com> Hello all. This is something we have been following closely and I just received more information to keep things balanced regarding this subject. This also may be forwarded with permission of the author, Joe Zias. The Talpiot tomb- deliberate misrepresentation? When first approached by conference organizers to participate in the Princeton University three day symposium, I along with several colleagues refused. My refusal was due to the fact that I had first hand experience with Simcha, Tabor and company over the film as well as Tabors book and saw their deliberate manipulation of anthro/arch data in order to pursue their agenda, namely TV ratings and book sales. Professor Charlesworths request that I participate was due to the fact that I was directly involved as curator with the Israel Antiquities Authority (1972-1997) with the find. In fact, my position required that I receive all ossuaries, catalogue, prepare the anthropological report on the human skeletal remains and store them in the Rockefeller Museum. Furthermore, I worked closely with Professor Kloner the Jerusalem head archaeologist along with Dr. LY Rahmani who authored the catalogue on 895 ossuaries in which the Talpiot tomb ossuaries are published. Two colleagues (Kloner and Spigelman) asked me to change my position on participating and I did upon condition that my presentation would avoid the Talpiot tomb controversy as I regarded it as finished shortly after it was shown on TV in America. Thus my presentation dealt with the contribution of anthropology to archaeology, particularly the cemetery at Qumran and crucifixion. The day before the symposium opened I was sent by one of Tabors supporters in the US a memo composed by Tabor in which he stated "*This is a dream come through (sic) for me and something Simcha and I have worked for, behind the scenes, with Prof. James Charlesworth*". I immediately forwarded it to Professor Charlesworth, believing that this was proof of what I had suspected all along, outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the agenda and skew the proceedings in a way which were favorable to their pre-conceived plan. Charlesworth previously unaware of this forwarded it to Tabor however by this time many things, which we learned later, had been set in place. For example, on the third day there was a panel discussing the Talpiot tomb in which one panelist with no experience whatsoever with the topic or any peer reviewed published research articles appeared as an expert. He, unknown to all of us in the world of archaeology both here and abroad, was the lone supporter of Simcha and Tabor. According to his short resume which was handed out to participants, it would appear that he, like Simcha is from the world of journalism as it mentions "over 1,000 articles' in newspapers and magazines " and nothing to do with Second Temple archaeology. By this time, my worst expectations were coming true as several sound and camera men with whom I had worked with previously suddenly appeared on the scene, now working for Simcha. The Lifetime Achievement Award which was presented to Mrs. Josef Gat on behalf of her late husband had to be one of the lowest depths which archaeology has descended in over 30 years. I had known Josef Gat and worked with him in the Dept. of Antiquities until his retirement. He was a quite, honest, hard working man in which one could depend upon. Most of the time, in which he was centered in Jerusalem, his job was that of inspector which meant following the bulldozers. As Jerusalem was in the midst of an unprecedented building phase and we were always short handed, he on occasion was asked to clear a tomb which had been accidentally discovered by building contractors. Such is the case with the Talpiot tomb. As Josef, despite his many years with the Dept. of Antiquities had authored but one article, it was a mystery to all of us, why he was receiving posthumously such an award. The acceptance speech by his elderly wife that he had known about the importance of the find and it's implications but kept it quiet is hard to understand as the ossuary inscriptions had not been deciphered nor published until after his death. The cynical use of the Holocaust story as to why Josef kept quiet, over something he was unable to decipher, should be clear to all, the lengths which film makers will go in order to be, in the words of Simcha 'vindicated', which he immediately reported to the press. The first media release was, without delay, sent off by an organization J9 which is the same organization which sent out PR releases on two of his earlier documentaries. The second (I'm vindicated) article was written by a long time personal friend of Simcha's and it included some rather interesting quotes from an anonymous source quoting the late Amir Drori, supporting his 'vindication'. So we now have proof, from two deceased archaeologists and an anonymous source, in the style of the film maker Oliver Stone, that the whole thing was a conspiracy designed to cover up something which would harm Vatican relations and promote anti-Semitism. Josef Gat, would have not agreed nor accepted such a cynical award. Now that the damage has been done they are claiming on their blogs that they were misunderstood, ill advised etc. and that the jury is still out on their claim, whereas the truth is just the opposite, the overwhelming majority, if not nearly all scholars present regarded this but as an attempt to achieve fame and fortune at the expense of colleagues and the profession. Lastly, Cameron, Discovery, Simcha, Tabor and a few others have a multi million dollar agenda riding on this, not including their reputation. Remember the first story on this in 1996, (a few years before Dan Brown), a front page article in the British press, sans, the media hype, the books, agents, the advances from publishers; it was dead a dead story within 48 hours until it was 'resurrected' by the above. It's time we rebury it. Joe Zias Science and Archaeology Group- Jerusalem Also: Two statements, feel free to circulate. Joe Note: forwarded message attached. Joe Zias www.joezias.com Anthropology/Paleopathology *Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem Jerusalem, Israel* Mark Goodacre has a copy of it here: http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html I think list folk may find it well worth reading. -- ++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD http://drjimwest.wordpress.com http://drjewest.googlepages.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/a5cd04b8/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 21 14:54:56 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:54:56 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: President Bush agrees to sell military equipment to Saudi Arabia Message-ID: <031301c85c6f$e1908810$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Friends, I don't usually like to get into politics because it is a sensitive subject and sometimes makes enemies, but please take a look at this and see if you think it is worth passing on. In passing this on to you, I am not advocating that these type petitions alone will take the supreme place for prayer and believing in HaShem to overcome the enemy and to confirm in us and show us directly what to do; we should never cease praying and believing in deliverance direct from HaShem! But, at the same time, I believe we can make a stand by doing whatever comes before us; and I think that there is a definite place for petitioning those in authority. We, of course know who is the final judge.may Psalm 83 come to pass! In my opinion, this is definitely worth looking at and considering.I have already voted and cannot vote again.if I could, I would cast a vote every day. To me this is both "outrageous" and appalling! I have thought that President Bush was a man of values and principles.one that loves G-d and Israel; but I truly think he is going off the deep end here and has forgotten what he himself has quoted from Genesis 18..that G-d would bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel.it seems that thru these attempts at diplomacy, Bush is leading the U.S. into very dangerous waters! In the past, America has been blessed.we have been a friend to Israel.but somehow I don't think this is how we should treat our friends! Interesting that this is the week of Tu B'Shevat, the Festival of Trees and in Kabalistic circles, relates directly to the of the Tree of Life, and is a special time for approaching the throne of HaShem with our supplications. It is also the week of the parsha 'Yitro" in which we are given the 10 Commandments, 10 Words or 10 Sayings.the ONLY time when G-d Himself spoke to a mass of people and manifested himself in fire and thunderings and lightening.these commandments were written "by the very finger of G-d," and delivered by Moses to the Israelites, but were for all Nations!!! Truly something to ponder and pray about. Please just take a few moments and read this article and if you agree, please pass it on! Thanks and Shalom, Betty/Elisheva _____ Mike Evans & Ehud Olmert at the launch of the Jerusalem Prayer Team I am outraged and you should be also. President Bush is in Saudi Arabia. He has just agreed to sell the Saudis $20 billion worth of military equipment. This is the same country that refused to recognize Israel's right to exist; the same country that will not allow one Jew to set foot on its soil; the same country that birthed the 9/11 suicide bombers; the same country that refuses a church to exist and will cut the heads off any Christian who leads a Muslim to Christ - the Saudis do this all the time - as the world sleeps. This is the same country that is sending suicide bombers into Iraq to kill our troops and the same country that is attempting to destroy the U.S. economy with One-Hundred-Dollar barrel oil. This is blackmail! I was completely outraged when I heard that Ehud Olmert, whom I have known for 26 years, stood next to President Bush and declared that he would work to fulfill the final status solution to the Road Map to Peace. In essence, this means the division of Jerusalem (with all Christian Holy Sites being under Islamic rule of law) and Judea and Samaria turned over to the Palestinians. A national Save Jerusalem Campaign has been launched. Presently over 120,000 have signed the petition. The goal is to have one million signatures of the petition to present to President Bush. This petition will also be sent to Ehud Olmert. You can add your name to the Presidential Petition by voting now. This is outrageous. These are terrorist organizations that will kill a Jew in a second if they make a wrong turn on the road and will shoot a Christian Palestinian in the head for saying nice things about Jews. As this absurd ceremony was going on, they were singing; they had music playing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow." The only rainbow that I believe in is the rainbow that God put in the sky when He made the Covenant in the time of Noah that He would not destroy the world again by water with a flood. God's word says I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee. America must not touch prophecy. The nation of Israel was born by a royal land grant given by God Almighty. It was birthed before there was a United States or a United Nations. All nations were only pagan nations at that time. Do you realize that the U.S. Government is shuttling around with almost a dozen Arab states that refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist and, in fact, funding terrorists to kill Jews? It's outrageous! Please, get one friend today to sign the Save Jerusalem Petition. This will double the number. Our ultimate goal is one million, but our goal right now is to reach 200,000. Pray today that the Lord will help us with this and that every Jerusalem Prayer Member will get one friend to respond in the next 24 hours. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the State Department is going to push this through if we remain silent. If it happens, God's hand of protection will be lifted from our country in a way that we couldn't possibly have imagined. I will not allow that to happen. I will do everything in my power to resist that. I'm asking for every Jerusalem Prayer Team Member to pray and ask just one friend today to sign the Petition. Thank you for responding today. To read the Jerusalem World News, click here: www.myjwn.com _____ Join the Jerusalem Prayer Team Now! Do not reply to this email. Please address email inquiries to jpteam at sbcglobal.net Jerusalem Prayer Team P.O. Box 210489 Bedford, TX 76095 FAX: 817-285-0962 1-800-825-3872 http://jerusalemprayerteam.org Dr. Tim LaHaye, Mrs. Anne Graham Lotz, Mr. Pat Boone, Mr. Bill McCartney, Ms. Kay Arthur, Rev. Tommy Tenney, Dr. A.R. Bernard, and Dr. Jay Sekulow are just a few of the more than 300 Christian Leaders who are part of the Jerusalem Prayer Team. The Jerusalem Prayer Team is a non-profit organization with 501c3 tax exempt status. The Jerusalem Prayer Team is a prayer movement of people around the world. It is a non-denominational organization. It receives no support from the Nation of Israel. Donations are tax deductible. The mission of the Jerusalem Prayer Team: To guard, defend and protect the Jewish people and Eretz Yisrael until Israel is secure, and until the Redeemer comes to Zion. How do I discontinue my membership/subscription to this e-mail list? Do not respond to this e-mail for any reason. To discontinue your membership automatically please, follow the link below. You joined this list as Betty Givin at the following e-mail address: bkgivin at charter.net. You must use the correct e-mail address to discontinue your membership. If you experience any technical problems and/or do not receive confirmation that your request has been completed online, please postal mail, phone or fax your request using the contact information listed above. Your request will be processed within 10 days of the receipt of your request. _____ HOW CAN I SUPPORT YOUR ORGANIZATION? Make a secure online credit card donation. _____ HOW CAN I TELL OTHERS ABOUT YOUR ORGANIZATION? Send a personalized version of this message to your friends. Discontinue your subscription. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/5abd6dda/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 21 15:11:39 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:11:39 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1936353473-1200950083-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1744393306-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> So Denny, How came you by this? Why would one of "Tabors supporters" forward a private email to one his known detractors? Just interested in your definition of balance! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Denny Johnson" Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:33:12 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results Hello all. This is something we have been following closely and I just received more information to keep things balanced regarding this subject. This also may be forwarded with permission of the author, Joe Zias. The Talpiot tomb- deliberate misrepresentation? ? When first approached by conference organizers to participate in the Princeton University three day symposium, I along with several colleagues refused. My refusal was due to the fact that I had first hand experience with Simcha, Tabor and company over the film as well as Tabors book and saw their deliberate manipulation of anthro/arch data in order to pursue their agenda, namely TV ratings and book sales. Professor Charlesworths request that I participate was due to the fact that I was directly involved as curator with the Israel Antiquities Authority (1972-1997) with the find. In fact, my position required that I receive all ossuaries, catalogue, prepare the anthropological report on the human skeletal remains and store them in the Rockefeller Museum. Furthermore, I worked closely with Professor Kloner the Jerusalem ?head archaeologist along with Dr. LY Rahmani who authored the catalogue on 895 ossuaries in which the Talpiot tomb ossuaries are published. Two colleagues (Kloner and Spigelman) asked me to change my position on participating and I did upon condition that my presentation would avoid the Talpiot tomb controversy as I regarded it as finished shortly after it was shown on TV in America. Thus my presentation dealt with the contribution of anthropology to archaeology, particularly the cemetery at Qumran and crucifixion. ? The day before the symposium opened I was sent by one of Tabors supporters in the US a memo composed by Tabor in which he stated ?"This is a dream come through (sic) for me and something Simcha and I have worked for, behind the scenes, with Prof. James Charlesworth". I immediately forwarded it to Professor Charlesworth, believing that this was proof of what I had suspected all along, outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the agenda and skew the proceedings in a way which were favorable to their pre-conceived plan. Charlesworth previously unaware of this forwarded it to Tabor however by this time many things, which we learned later, had been set in place. For example, on the third day there was a panel discussing the Talpiot tomb in which one panelist with no experience whatsoever with the topic or any peer reviewed published research articles appeared as an expert. He, unknown to all of us in the world of archaeology both here and abroad, was the lone supporter of Simcha and Tabor. According to his short resume which was handed out to participants, it would appear that he, like Simcha is from the world of journalism as it mentions "over 1,000 articles' in newspapers and magazines "? and nothing to do with Second Temple archaeology.? By this time, my worst expectations were coming true as several sound and camera men with whom I had worked with previously suddenly appeared on the scene, now working for Simcha. ? The Lifetime Achievement Award which was presented to Mrs. Josef Gat on behalf of her late husband had to be one of the lowest depths which archaeology has descended in over 30 years. I had known Josef? Gat and worked with him in the Dept. of Antiquities until his retirement. He was a quite, honest, hard working man in which one could depend upon. Most of the time, in which he was centered in Jerusalem, his job was that of inspector which meant following the bulldozers. As Jerusalem was in the midst of an unprecedented building phase and we were always short handed, he on occasion was asked to clear a tomb which had been accidentally discovered by building contractors. Such is the case with the Talpiot tomb. As Josef, despite his many years with the Dept. of Antiquities had authored but one article, it was a mystery to all of us, why he was receiving posthumously such an award. The acceptance speech by his elderly wife that he had known about the importance of the find and it's implications but kept it quiet is hard to understand as the ossuary inscriptions had not been deciphered nor published until after his death. The cynical use of the Holocaust story as to why Josef kept quiet, over something he was unable to decipher, should be clear to all, the lengths which film makers will go in order to be, in the words of Simcha 'vindicated', which he immediately reported to the press. The first media release was, without delay, sent off by an organization J9 which is the same organization which sent out PR releases on two of his earlier documentaries.? The second (I'm vindicated) article was written by a long time personal friend of Simcha's and it included some rather interesting quotes from an anonymous source quoting the late Amir Drori, ?supporting ?his 'vindication'.? So we now have proof, from two deceased archaeologists and an anonymous source, in the style of the film maker Oliver Stone, that the whole thing was a conspiracy designed to cover up something which would harm Vatican relations and promote anti-Semitism. ?Josef Gat, would have not agreed nor accepted such a cynical award. ?Now that the damage has been done they are claiming on their blogs that they were misunderstood, ill advised etc. and that the jury is still out on their claim, whereas the truth is just the opposite, the overwhelming majority, if not nearly all scholars present regarded this but as an attempt to achieve fame and fortune at the expense of colleagues and the profession. ? Lastly, Cameron, Discovery, Simcha, Tabor and a few others have a multi million dollar agenda riding on this, not including their reputation. Remember the first story on this in 1996, (a few years before Dan Brown), a front page article in the British press, sans, the media hype, the books, agents, the advances from publishers; it was dead a dead story within 48 hours until it was 'resurrected' by the above. ?It's time we rebury it. ? Joe Zias Science and Archaeology Group- Jerusalem Also: Two statements, feel free to circulate. Joe Note: forwarded message attached. Joe Zias www.joezias.com Anthropology/Paleopathology Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem Jerusalem, Israel Mark Goodacre has a copy of it here: http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html I think list folk may find it well worth reading. -- ++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD http://drjimwest.wordpress.com http://drjewest.googlepages.com _______________________________________________ From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Jan 21 15:38:18 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:38:18 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62A48200-0FDF-44DD-B756-982A68E8D748@earthlink.net> This is slanderous and full of innuendo and falsehood. I could hardly count the misrepresentations, much less the character judgments. I have exchanged e-mails with Joe personally on all of this but he has insisted on spreading these lies even though he definitely knows better. In the Torah this is called LaShon Rara and I would never pass on something like this about another for fear of damaging ones reputation. In all the months Joe has attacked me I have treated him kindly and never attacked back. My report on the Talpiot Conference speaks for itself and you will see that I take a very even view and actually am quite critical of several things Joe now associates me with. I will not reply. If he can live with his conscience and others can believe this sort of thing then so be it. James On Jan 21, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > Hello all. This is something we have been following closely and I > just received more information to keep things balanced regarding > this subject. This also may be forwarded with permission of the > author, Joe Zias. > > > The Talpiot tomb- deliberate misrepresentation? > > > When first approached by conference organizers to participate in the > Princeton University three day symposium, I along with several > colleagues refused. My refusal was due to the fact that I had first > hand experience with Simcha, Tabor and company over the film as well > as Tabors book and saw their deliberate manipulation of anthro/arch > data in order to pursue their agenda, namely TV ratings and book > sales. Professor Charlesworths request that I participate was due to > the fact that I was directly involved as curator with the Israel > Antiquities Authority (1972-1997) with the find. In fact, my > position required that I receive all ossuaries, catalogue, prepare > the anthropological report on the human skeletal remains and store > them in the Rockefeller Museum. Furthermore, I worked closely with > Professor Kloner the Jerusalem head archaeologist along with Dr. LY > Rahmani who authored the catalogue on 895 ossuaries in which the > Talpiot tomb ossuaries are published. Two colleagues (Kloner and > Spigelman) asked me to change my position on participating and I did > upon condition that my presentation would avoid the Talpiot tomb > controversy as I regarded it as finished shortly after it was shown > on TV in America. Thus my presentation dealt with the contribution > of anthropology to archaeology, particularly the cemetery at Qumran > and crucifixion. > > > The day before the symposium opened I was sent by one of Tabors > supporters in the US a memo composed by Tabor in which he stated > "This is a dream come through (sic) for me and something Simcha and > I have worked for, behind the scenes, with Prof. James > Charlesworth". I immediately forwarded it to Professor Charlesworth, > believing that this was proof of what I had suspected all along, > outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the > agenda and skew the proceedings in a way which were favorable to > their pre-conceived plan. Charlesworth previously unaware of this > forwarded it to Tabor however by this time many things, which we > learned later, had been set in place. For example, on the third day > there was a panel discussing the Talpiot tomb in which one panelist > with no experience whatsoever with the topic or any peer reviewed > published research articles appeared as an expert. He, unknown to > all of us in the world of archaeology both here and abroad, was the > lone supporter of Simcha and Tabor. According to his short resume > which was handed out to participants, it would appear that he, like > Simcha is from the world of journalism as it mentions "over 1,000 > articles' in newspapers and magazines " and nothing to do with > Second Temple archaeology. By this time, my worst expectations were > coming true as several sound and camera men with whom I had worked > with previously suddenly appeared on the scene, now working for > Simcha. > > > The Lifetime Achievement Award which was presented to Mrs. Josef Gat > on behalf of her late husband had to be one of the lowest depths > which archaeology has descended in over 30 years. I had known Josef > Gat and worked with him in the Dept. of Antiquities until his > retirement. He was a quite, honest, hard working man in which one > could depend upon. Most of the time, in which he was centered in > Jerusalem, his job was that of inspector which meant following the > bulldozers. As Jerusalem was in the midst of an unprecedented > building phase and we were always short handed, he on occasion was > asked to clear a tomb which had been accidentally discovered by > building contractors. Such is the case with the Talpiot tomb. As > Josef, despite his many years with the Dept. of Antiquities had > authored but one article, it was a mystery to all of us, why he was > receiving posthumously such an award. The acceptance speech by his > elderly wife that he had known about the importance of the find and > it's implications but kept it quiet is hard to understand as the > ossuary inscriptions had not been deciphered nor published until > after his death. The cynical use of the Holocaust story as to why > Josef kept quiet, over something he was unable to decipher, should > be clear to all, the lengths which film makers will go in order to > be, in the words of Simcha 'vindicated', which he immediately > reported to the press. The first media release was, without delay, > sent off by an organization J9 which is the same organization which > sent out PR releases on two of his earlier documentaries. The second > (I'm vindicated) article was written by a long time personal friend > of Simcha's and it included some rather interesting quotes from an > anonymous source quoting the late Amir Drori, supporting his > 'vindication'. So we now have proof, from two deceased > archaeologists and an anonymous source, in the style of the film > maker Oliver Stone, that the whole thing was a conspiracy designed > to cover up something which would harm Vatican relations and promote > anti-Semitism. Josef Gat, would have not agreed nor accepted such a > cynical award. Now that the damage has been done they are claiming > on their blogs that they were misunderstood, ill advised etc. and > that the jury is still out on their claim, whereas the truth is just > the opposite, the overwhelming majority, if not nearly all scholars > present regarded this but as an attempt to achieve fame and fortune > at the expense of colleagues and the profession. > > > Lastly, Cameron, Discovery, Simcha, Tabor and a few others have a > multi million dollar agenda riding on this, not including their > reputation. Remember the first story on this in 1996, (a few years > before Dan Brown), a front page article in the British press, sans, > the media hype, the books, agents, the advances from publishers; it > was dead a dead story within 48 hours until it was 'resurrected' by > the above. It's time we rebury it. > > > Joe Zias > > Science and Archaeology Group- Jerusalem > > Also: > > Two statements, feel free to circulate. > Joe > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com > Anthropology/Paleopathology > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem > Jerusalem, Israel > Mark Goodacre has a copy of it here: > > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html > > I think list folk may find it well worth reading. > > -- > ++++++++++++++++ > > Jim West, ThD > > http://drjimwest.wordpress.com > http://drjewest.googlepages.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/a526c946/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 21 15:45:24 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:45:24 +0000 Subject: Fw: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results Message-ID: <480937195-1200952103-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-872392131-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:11:39 To:"Dialogue" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results So Denny, How came you by this? Why would one of "Tabors supporters" forward a private email to one his known detractors? Just interested in your definition of balance! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Denny Johnson" Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:33:12 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results Hello all. This is something we have been following closely and I just received more information to keep things balanced regarding this subject. This also may be forwarded with permission of the author, Joe Zias. The Talpiot tomb- deliberate misrepresentation? ? When first approached by conference organizers to participate in the Princeton University three day symposium, I along with several colleagues refused. My refusal was due to the fact that I had first hand experience with Simcha, Tabor and company over the film as well as Tabors book and saw their deliberate manipulation of anthro/arch data in order to pursue their agenda, namely TV ratings and book sales. Professor Charlesworths request that I participate was due to the fact that I was directly involved as curator with the Israel Antiquities Authority (1972-1997) with the find. In fact, my position required that I receive all ossuaries, catalogue, prepare the anthropological report on the human skeletal remains and store them in the Rockefeller Museum. Furthermore, I worked closely with Professor Kloner the Jerusalem ?head archaeologist along with Dr. LY Rahmani who authored the catalogue on 895 ossuaries in which the Talpiot tomb ossuaries are published. Two colleagues (Kloner and Spigelman) asked me to change my position on participating and I did upon condition that my presentation would avoid the Talpiot tomb controversy as I regarded it as finished shortly after it was shown on TV in America. Thus my presentation dealt with the contribution of anthropology to archaeology, particularly the cemetery at Qumran and crucifixion. ? The day before the symposium opened I was sent by one of Tabors supporters in the US a memo composed by Tabor in which he stated ?"This is a dream come through (sic) for me and something Simcha and I have worked for, behind the scenes, with Prof. James Charlesworth". I immediately forwarded it to Professor Charlesworth, believing that this was proof of what I had suspected all along, outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the agenda and skew the proceedings in a way which were favorable to their pre-conceived plan. Charlesworth previously unaware of this forwarded it to Tabor however by this time many things, which we learned later, had been set in place. For example, on the third day there was a panel discussing the Talpiot tomb in which one panelist with no experience whatsoever with the topic or any peer reviewed published research articles appeared as an expert. He, unknown to all of us in the world of archaeology both here and abroad, was the lone supporter of Simcha and Tabor. According to his short resume which was handed out to participants, it would appear that he, like Simcha is from the world of journalism as it mentions "over 1,000 articles' in newspapers and magazines "? and nothing to do with Second Temple archaeology.? By this time, my worst expectations were coming true as several sound and camera men with whom I had worked with previously suddenly appeared on the scene, now working for Simcha. ? The Lifetime Achievement Award which was presented to Mrs. Josef Gat on behalf of her late husband had to be one of the lowest depths which archaeology has descended in over 30 years. I had known Josef? Gat and worked with him in the Dept. of Antiquities until his retirement. He was a quite, honest, hard working man in which one could depend upon. Most of the time, in which he was centered in Jerusalem, his job was that of inspector which meant following the bulldozers. As Jerusalem was in the midst of an unprecedented building phase and we were always short handed, he on occasion was asked to clear a tomb which had been accidentally discovered by building contractors. Such is the case with the Talpiot tomb. As Josef, despite his many years with the Dept. of Antiquities had authored but one article, it was a mystery to all of us, why he was receiving posthumously such an award. The acceptance speech by his elderly wife that he had known about the importance of the find and it's implications but kept it quiet is hard to understand as the ossuary inscriptions had not been deciphered nor published until after his death. The cynical use of the Holocaust story as to why Josef kept quiet, over something he was unable to decipher, should be clear to all, the lengths which film makers will go in order to be, in the words of Simcha 'vindicated', which he immediately reported to the press. The first media release was, without delay, sent off by an organization J9 which is the same organization which sent out PR releases on two of his earlier documentaries.? The second (I'm vindicated) article was written by a long time personal friend of Simcha's and it included some rather interesting quotes from an anonymous source quoting the late Amir Drori, ?supporting ?his 'vindication'.? So we now have proof, from two deceased archaeologists and an anonymous source, in the style of the film maker Oliver Stone, that the whole thing was a conspiracy designed to cover up something which would harm Vatican relations and promote anti-Semitism. ?Josef Gat, would have not agreed nor accepted such a cynical award. ?Now that the damage has been done they are claiming on their blogs that they were misunderstood, ill advised etc. and that the jury is still out on their claim, whereas the truth is just the opposite, the overwhelming majority, if not nearly all scholars present regarded this but as an attempt to achieve fame and fortune at the expense of colleagues and the profession. ? Lastly, Cameron, Discovery, Simcha, Tabor and a few others have a multi million dollar agenda riding on this, not including their reputation. Remember the first story on this in 1996, (a few years before Dan Brown), a front page article in the British press, sans, the media hype, the books, agents, the advances from publishers; it was dead a dead story within 48 hours until it was 'resurrected' by the above. ?It's time we rebury it. ? Joe Zias Science and Archaeology Group- Jerusalem Also: Two statements, feel free to circulate. Joe Note: forwarded message attached. Joe Zias www.joezias.com Anthropology/Paleopathology Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem Jerusalem, Israel Mark Goodacre has a copy of it here: http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html I think list folk may find it well worth reading. -- ++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD http://drjimwest.wordpress.com http://drjewest.googlepages.com _______________________________________________ From dennyj at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 15:52:26 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:52:26 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue]: The place of work in our lives In-Reply-To: <02e901c85c5b$95c0d0c0$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <1d04e0430801210529m6cd8cd4ape43d31e89c6a1270@mail.gmail.com> <02e901c85c5b$95c0d0c0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801211352p3bf48b35r9fc6f30b96f00089@mail.gmail.com> Hey Betty, Roger, I have been there before. It isn't fun, I know. But as I look back over my life, I can really see the hand of God. I make way less money now than I did before my layoff, but the closeness to home and lack of stress more than makes up for it. My wife went back to work and she loves her job. We are just very content and grateful everyday for all His blessings. We have other friends who are also out of work and we keep our eyes and ears open for opportunities for them. We will keep you in our thoughts and prayers, too. Shalom shalom, Denny On Jan 21, 2008 12:29 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Thank you, Denny for providing this website regarding "avodah." It is > truly amazing to think of the possibilities of truly integrating HaShem with > our work and service to him?and actually involving HaShem in everything we > do, even tasting and eating?that was actually the central message that comes > down from the mystics as far as the essence of celebrating Tu B'Shevat > (The Festival of Trees). Maybe more on that later? or perhaps Hanoch would > have something to offer. I think that we in the United States are so prone > to compartmentalize our lives?when HaShem calls upon us to integrate our > lives, giving all of ourselves and what we do, including our "avodah" as > service to Him. > > > > Might I just add, that for those of you who are currently employed, may > you be thankful and may you be blessed with a good week in anticipation with > what HaShem has in store for you. > > > > Even though Roger and I are still not currently employed (except for my > substitute teaching whenever a job comes up), I say that with a full heart > for all of you. I don't mean to be redundant in continuing to ask for > prayer in our job search, but as the time goes on (over a year now), every > once and a while, I feel like I need to "suck up my pride" and make that > request again. I know that HaShem will come thru for us?it is just a matter > of time? > > > > Blessings and Shavua Tov to all, > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Denny Johnson > *Sent:* Monday, January 21, 2008 7:29 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue]: The place of work in our lives > > > > Good morning all. > > > > It's off to work again for another week. Hope you are looking forward to > yours with anticipation for what Hashem has in store for you. > > To help prepare you, I am providing 1 link of many that I know that > focuses on our work life. > > > > Enjoy! and Shavua Tov! > > > > http://www.avodahinstitute.com/integrating/integrating.shtml > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/de1bbed2/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 21 16:04:37 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:04:37 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results Message-ID: Hi Denny - Hope all is well in the land of 10,000 lakes; I bet most of them are frozen, right? Well, to get to the point of my note, I was actually very, very surprised to see the post you put up from Joe Zias. He clearly has an axe to grind, and frankly, I find it really offensive to see, what is obviously Lashon Hara (Evil Speech) on a list like this, where people have come to learn to follow the Torah, not to violate it. The Sages have classified character assassination (as that email does) as akin to murder, it is THAT serious....truly, like shedding blood...And Denny, I'm certain that was not your intent, right? We should be very selective in what we post here on Dialogue, which is designed to serve as a forum for those seeking the G-d of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, and learning about leading a Torah - based lifestyle. It is essential that we stay away from the sort of thing Zias wrote, and stick with passing on only what can be helpful and/or constructive (and verified!) to our little (soon to be bigger!) group. Let's stay positive and stay away from this sort of thing, which I think was also a defamation of James, who I have known personally for over 15 years. His character and integrity are impeccable...why would anyone even THINK of doubting it? Please folks, let's focus on what we're here for, and make sure not to violate a very vital Torah concept. If we start down that road (Lashon Hara), we will be doing nothing but being evil, and even worse - spreading evil. We have to hold ourselves to a higher standard.... Best regards, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/5e000ae5/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Jan 21 16:52:51 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:52:51 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: <1936353473-1200950083-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1744393306-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com> <1936353473-1200950083-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1744393306-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8D39FEFD-8B7F-4D53-ACB5-DD69A3B8D7BD@earthlink.net> My suggestion is that this topic, and particularly my personal involvement and record with the Talpiot tomb, which is on my Blog in great detail, not become the subject of dialogue on this list. It has nothing to do with our central purpose and I know Ross would agree but has been too occupied to respond. Mutual respect, trust, and good will are central to our exchanges. Thanks, James On Jan 21, 2008, at 4:11 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > So Denny, > > How came you by this? Why would one of "Tabors supporters" forward > a private email to one his known detractors? > > Just interested in your definition of balance! > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Denny Johnson" > > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:33:12 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results > > > Hello all. This is something we have been following closely and I > just received more information to keep things balanced regarding > this subject. This also may be forwarded with permission of the > author, Joe Zias. > > > > The Talpiot tomb- deliberate misrepresentation? > > When first approached by conference organizers to participate in the > Princeton University three day symposium, I along with several > colleagues refused. My refusal was due to the fact that I had first > hand experience with Simcha, Tabor and company over the film as well > as Tabors book and saw their deliberate manipulation of anthro/arch > data in order to pursue their agenda, namely TV ratings and book > sales. Professor Charlesworths request that I participate was due to > the fact that I was directly involved as curator with the Israel > Antiquities Authority (1972-1997) with the find. In fact, my > position required that I receive all ossuaries, catalogue, prepare > the anthropological report on the human skeletal remains and store > them in the Rockefeller Museum. Furthermore, I worked closely with > Professor Kloner the Jerusalem head archaeologist along with Dr. LY > Rahmani who authored the catalogue on 895 ossuaries in which the > Talpiot tomb ossuaries are published. Two colleagues (Kloner and > Spigelman) asked me to change my position on participating and I did > upon condition that my presentation would avoid the Talpiot tomb > controversy as I regarded it as finished shortly after it was shown > on TV in America. Thus my presentation dealt with the contribution > of anthropology to archaeology, particularly the cemetery at Qumran > and crucifixion. > > The day before the symposium opened I was sent by one of Tabors > supporters in the US a memo composed by Tabor in which he stated > "This is a dream come through (sic) for me and something Simcha and > I have worked for, behind the scenes, with Prof. James > Charlesworth". I immediately forwarded it to Professor Charlesworth, > believing that this was proof of what I had suspected all along, > outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the > agenda and skew the proceedings in a way which were favorable to > their pre-conceived plan. Charlesworth previously unaware of this > forwarded it to Tabor however by this time many things, which we > learned later, had been set in place. For example, on the third day > there was a panel discussing the Talpiot tomb in which one panelist > with no experience whatsoever with the topic or any peer reviewed > published research articles appeared as an expert. He, unknown to > all of us in the world of archaeology both here and abroad, was the > lone supporter of Simcha and Tabor. According to his short resume > which was handed out to participants, it would appear that he, like > Simcha is from the world of journalism as it mentions "over 1,000 > articles' in newspapers and magazines " and nothing to do with > Second Temple archaeology. By this time, my worst expectations were > coming true as several sound and camera men with whom I had worked > with previously suddenly appeared on the scene, now working for > Simcha. > > The Lifetime Achievement Award which was presented to Mrs. Josef Gat > on behalf of her late husband had to be one of the lowest depths > which archaeology has descended in over 30 years. I had known Josef > Gat and worked with him in the Dept. of Antiquities until his > retirement. He was a quite, honest, hard working man in which one > could depend upon. Most of the time, in which he was centered in > Jerusalem, his job was that of inspector which meant following the > bulldozers. As Jerusalem was in the midst of an unprecedented > building phase and we were always short handed, he on occasion was > asked to clear a tomb which had been accidentally discovered by > building contractors. Such is the case with the Talpiot tomb. As > Josef, despite his many years with the Dept. of Antiquities had > authored but one article, it was a mystery to all of us, why he was > receiving posthumously such an award. The acceptance speech by his > elderly wife that he had known about the importance of the find and > it's implications but kept it quiet is hard to understand as the > ossuary inscriptions had not been deciphered nor published until > after his death. The cynical use of the Holocaust story as to why > Josef kept quiet, over something he was unable to decipher, should > be clear to all, the lengths which film makers will go in order to > be, in the words of Simcha 'vindicated', which he immediately > reported to the press. The first media release was, without delay, > sent off by an organization J9 which is the same organization which > sent out PR releases on two of his earlier documentaries. The > second (I'm vindicated) article was written by a long time personal > friend of Simcha's and it included some rather interesting quotes > from an anonymous source quoting the late Amir Drori, supporting > his 'vindication'. So we now have proof, from two deceased > archaeologists and an anonymous source, in the style of the film > maker Oliver Stone, that the whole thing was a conspiracy designed > to cover up something which would harm Vatican relations and promote > anti-Semitism. Josef Gat, would have not agreed nor accepted such a > cynical award. Now that the damage has been done they are claiming > on their blogs that they were misunderstood, ill advised etc. and > that the jury is still out on their claim, whereas the truth is just > the opposite, the overwhelming majority, if not nearly all scholars > present regarded this but as an attempt to achieve fame and fortune > at the expense of colleagues and the profession. > > Lastly, Cameron, Discovery, Simcha, Tabor and a few others have a > multi million dollar agenda riding on this, not including their > reputation. Remember the first story on this in 1996, (a few years > before Dan Brown), a front page article in the British press, sans, > the media hype, the books, agents, the advances from publishers; it > was dead a dead story within 48 hours until it was 'resurrected' by > the above. It's time we rebury it. > > Joe Zias > Science and Archaeology Group- Jerusalem Also: > > > Two statements, feel free to circulate. > Joe > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com > Anthropology/Paleopathology > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem > Jerusalem, Israel > > > > > > Mark Goodacre has a copy of it here: > > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html > > > > I think list folk may find it well worth reading. > > -- > ++++++++++++++++ > > Jim West, ThD > > http://drjimwest.wordpress.com > > http://drjewest.googlepages.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 21 16:54:16 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:54:16 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for 14 Shevat 5768 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <034e01c85c80$8d2a2d60$643c66c9@bettygivin> Excellent quote, Hanoch, for this day and time!!! It reminds me of the famous quote (that many of us who grew up in Christianity are very familiar with) taken from the NT writings of Ya'akov, (James) brother of Yeshua concerning bridling the tongue.James 4. Shalom, shalom! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 6:12 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for 14 Shevat 5768 Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, a quote from the Lekarev Report... He who guards his mouth and his tongue, preserves his soul from troubles. Proverbs 21:23 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/befdd1be/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 17:18:33 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:18:33 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: <8D39FEFD-8B7F-4D53-ACB5-DD69A3B8D7BD@earthlink.net> References: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com> <1936353473-1200950083-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1744393306-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <8D39FEFD-8B7F-4D53-ACB5-DD69A3B8D7BD@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801211518t4f6303c6t2c848fb74e69b6f@mail.gmail.com> James, I thought you made that decision the last time, but you are the one who brought it up here again. Seeing as you were making this a forum for your views on Talipot, I thought it would be beneficial to all to get the perspective from others involved. Also included was a blog from Mark Goodacre. Most here on this list probably have no idea of all that is involved in this discussion. I am quite impartial at this point. Stand on your integrity. Denny On Jan 21, 2008 4:52 PM, James Tabor wrote: > My suggestion is that this topic, and particularly my personal > involvement and record with the Talpiot tomb, which is on my Blog in > great detail, not become the subject of dialogue on this list. It has > nothing to do with our central purpose and I know Ross would agree but > has been too occupied to respond. Mutual respect, trust, and good will > are central to our exchanges. > > Thanks, > > James > > > On Jan 21, 2008, at 4:11 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > > > So Denny, > > > > How came you by this? Why would one of "Tabors supporters" forward > > a private email to one his known detractors? > > > > Just interested in your definition of balance! > > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Denny Johnson" > > > > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:33:12 > > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results > > > > > > Hello all. This is something we have been following closely and I > > just received more information to keep things balanced regarding > > this subject. This also may be forwarded with permission of the > > author, Joe Zias. > > > > > > > > The Talpiot tomb- deliberate misrepresentation? > > > > When first approached by conference organizers to participate in the > > Princeton University three day symposium, I along with several > > colleagues refused. My refusal was due to the fact that I had first > > hand experience with Simcha, Tabor and company over the film as well > > as Tabors book and saw their deliberate manipulation of anthro/arch > > data in order to pursue their agenda, namely TV ratings and book > > sales. Professor Charlesworths request that I participate was due to > > the fact that I was directly involved as curator with the Israel > > Antiquities Authority (1972-1997) with the find. In fact, my > > position required that I receive all ossuaries, catalogue, prepare > > the anthropological report on the human skeletal remains and store > > them in the Rockefeller Museum. Furthermore, I worked closely with > > Professor Kloner the Jerusalem head archaeologist along with Dr. LY > > Rahmani who authored the catalogue on 895 ossuaries in which the > > Talpiot tomb ossuaries are published. Two colleagues (Kloner and > > Spigelman) asked me to change my position on participating and I did > > upon condition that my presentation would avoid the Talpiot tomb > > controversy as I regarded it as finished shortly after it was shown > > on TV in America. Thus my presentation dealt with the contribution > > of anthropology to archaeology, particularly the cemetery at Qumran > > and crucifixion. > > > > The day before the symposium opened I was sent by one of Tabors > > supporters in the US a memo composed by Tabor in which he stated > > "This is a dream come through (sic) for me and something Simcha and > > I have worked for, behind the scenes, with Prof. James > > Charlesworth". I immediately forwarded it to Professor Charlesworth, > > believing that this was proof of what I had suspected all along, > > outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the > > agenda and skew the proceedings in a way which were favorable to > > their pre-conceived plan. Charlesworth previously unaware of this > > forwarded it to Tabor however by this time many things, which we > > learned later, had been set in place. For example, on the third day > > there was a panel discussing the Talpiot tomb in which one panelist > > with no experience whatsoever with the topic or any peer reviewed > > published research articles appeared as an expert. He, unknown to > > all of us in the world of archaeology both here and abroad, was the > > lone supporter of Simcha and Tabor. According to his short resume > > which was handed out to participants, it would appear that he, like > > Simcha is from the world of journalism as it mentions "over 1,000 > > articles' in newspapers and magazines " and nothing to do with > > Second Temple archaeology. By this time, my worst expectations were > > coming true as several sound and camera men with whom I had worked > > with previously suddenly appeared on the scene, now working for > > Simcha. > > > > The Lifetime Achievement Award which was presented to Mrs. Josef Gat > > on behalf of her late husband had to be one of the lowest depths > > which archaeology has descended in over 30 years. I had known Josef > > Gat and worked with him in the Dept. of Antiquities until his > > retirement. He was a quite, honest, hard working man in which one > > could depend upon. Most of the time, in which he was centered in > > Jerusalem, his job was that of inspector which meant following the > > bulldozers. As Jerusalem was in the midst of an unprecedented > > building phase and we were always short handed, he on occasion was > > asked to clear a tomb which had been accidentally discovered by > > building contractors. Such is the case with the Talpiot tomb. As > > Josef, despite his many years with the Dept. of Antiquities had > > authored but one article, it was a mystery to all of us, why he was > > receiving posthumously such an award. The acceptance speech by his > > elderly wife that he had known about the importance of the find and > > it's implications but kept it quiet is hard to understand as the > > ossuary inscriptions had not been deciphered nor published until > > after his death. The cynical use of the Holocaust story as to why > > Josef kept quiet, over something he was unable to decipher, should > > be clear to all, the lengths which film makers will go in order to > > be, in the words of Simcha 'vindicated', which he immediately > > reported to the press. The first media release was, without delay, > > sent off by an organization J9 which is the same organization which > > sent out PR releases on two of his earlier documentaries. The > > second (I'm vindicated) article was written by a long time personal > > friend of Simcha's and it included some rather interesting quotes > > from an anonymous source quoting the late Amir Drori, supporting > > his 'vindication'. So we now have proof, from two deceased > > archaeologists and an anonymous source, in the style of the film > > maker Oliver Stone, that the whole thing was a conspiracy designed > > to cover up something which would harm Vatican relations and promote > > anti-Semitism. Josef Gat, would have not agreed nor accepted such a > > cynical award. Now that the damage has been done they are claiming > > on their blogs that they were misunderstood, ill advised etc. and > > that the jury is still out on their claim, whereas the truth is just > > the opposite, the overwhelming majority, if not nearly all scholars > > present regarded this but as an attempt to achieve fame and fortune > > at the expense of colleagues and the profession. > > > > Lastly, Cameron, Discovery, Simcha, Tabor and a few others have a > > multi million dollar agenda riding on this, not including their > > reputation. Remember the first story on this in 1996, (a few years > > before Dan Brown), a front page article in the British press, sans, > > the media hype, the books, agents, the advances from publishers; it > > was dead a dead story within 48 hours until it was 'resurrected' by > > the above. It's time we rebury it. > > > > Joe Zias > > Science and Archaeology Group- Jerusalem Also: > > > > > > Two statements, feel free to circulate. > > Joe > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com > > Anthropology/Paleopathology > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem > > Jerusalem, Israel > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Goodacre has a copy of it here: > > > > > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html > > < > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html > > > > > > > I think list folk may find it well worth reading. > > > > -- > > ++++++++++++++++ > > > > Jim West, ThD > > > > http://drjimwest.wordpress.com > > > > http://drjewest.googlepages.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/be074357/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Jan 21 17:53:34 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:53:34 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801211518t4f6303c6t2c848fb74e69b6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com> <1936353473-1200950083-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1744393306-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <8D39FEFD-8B7F-4D53-ACB5-DD69A3B8D7BD@earthlink.net> <1d04e0430801211518t4f6303c6t2c848fb74e69b6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <24D7167E-07E9-4930-894B-F46366FAA097@earthlink.net> Dear Denny, I am talking about personal insult and slander as I said clearly below. My report, circulated for information, was balanced and objective, it was not a a post on my views of Talpiot, or perhaps you did not read it. It did not attack individuals or accuse them falsely of lying, greed, or such things. It has been reposted, for example, on Bock's Blog, and he is an evangelical who disagrees with me on the Tomb, but we treat one another with respect. The post on Mark Goodacre's site is also professional and respectful. In fact, if you read the two you will see that what I wrote echoes some of that. That said, I would rather not be instructed by you to stand on my integrity. James On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:18 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > James, > > I thought you made that decision the last time, but you are the one > who brought it up here again. > Seeing as you were making this a forum for your views on Talipot, I > thought it would be beneficial to all to get the perspective from > others involved. Also included was a blog from Mark Goodacre. Most > here on this list probably have no idea of all that is involved in > this discussion. I am quite impartial at this point. > > Stand on your integrity. > > Denny > > > On Jan 21, 2008 4:52 PM, James Tabor > wrote: > My suggestion is that this topic, and particularly my personal > involvement and record with the Talpiot tomb, which is on my Blog in > great detail, not become the subject of dialogue on this list. It has > nothing to do with our central purpose and I know Ross would agree but > has been too occupied to respond. Mutual respect, trust, and good will > are central to our exchanges. > > Thanks, > > James > > > On Jan 21, 2008, at 4:11 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > > > So Denny, > > > > How came you by this? Why would one of "Tabors supporters" forward > > a private email to one his known detractors? > > > > Just interested in your definition of balance! > > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Denny Johnson" < dennyj at gmail.com> > > > > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:33:12 > > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results > > > > > > Hello all. This is something we have been following closely and I > > just received more information to keep things balanced regarding > > this subject. This also may be forwarded with permission of the > > author, Joe Zias. > > > > > > > > The Talpiot tomb- deliberate misrepresentation? > > > > When first approached by conference organizers to participate in the > > Princeton University three day symposium, I along with several > > colleagues refused. My refusal was due to the fact that I had first > > hand experience with Simcha, Tabor and company over the film as well > > as Tabors book and saw their deliberate manipulation of anthro/arch > > data in order to pursue their agenda, namely TV ratings and book > > sales. Professor Charlesworths request that I participate was due to > > the fact that I was directly involved as curator with the Israel > > Antiquities Authority (1972-1997) with the find. In fact, my > > position required that I receive all ossuaries, catalogue, prepare > > the anthropological report on the human skeletal remains and store > > them in the Rockefeller Museum. Furthermore, I worked closely with > > Professor Kloner the Jerusalem head archaeologist along with Dr. LY > > Rahmani who authored the catalogue on 895 ossuaries in which the > > Talpiot tomb ossuaries are published. Two colleagues (Kloner and > > Spigelman) asked me to change my position on participating and I did > > upon condition that my presentation would avoid the Talpiot tomb > > controversy as I regarded it as finished shortly after it was shown > > on TV in America. Thus my presentation dealt with the contribution > > of anthropology to archaeology, particularly the cemetery at Qumran > > and crucifixion. > > > > The day before the symposium opened I was sent by one of Tabors > > supporters in the US a memo composed by Tabor in which he stated > > "This is a dream come through (sic) for me and something Simcha and > > I have worked for, behind the scenes, with Prof. James > > Charlesworth". I immediately forwarded it to Professor Charlesworth, > > believing that this was proof of what I had suspected all along, > > outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the > > agenda and skew the proceedings in a way which were favorable to > > their pre-conceived plan. Charlesworth previously unaware of this > > forwarded it to Tabor however by this time many things, which we > > learned later, had been set in place. For example, on the third day > > there was a panel discussing the Talpiot tomb in which one panelist > > with no experience whatsoever with the topic or any peer reviewed > > published research articles appeared as an expert. He, unknown to > > all of us in the world of archaeology both here and abroad, was the > > lone supporter of Simcha and Tabor. According to his short resume > > which was handed out to participants, it would appear that he, like > > Simcha is from the world of journalism as it mentions "over 1,000 > > articles' in newspapers and magazines " and nothing to do with > > Second Temple archaeology. By this time, my worst expectations were > > coming true as several sound and camera men with whom I had worked > > with previously suddenly appeared on the scene, now working for > > Simcha. > > > > The Lifetime Achievement Award which was presented to Mrs. Josef Gat > > on behalf of her late husband had to be one of the lowest depths > > which archaeology has descended in over 30 years. I had known Josef > > Gat and worked with him in the Dept. of Antiquities until his > > retirement. He was a quite, honest, hard working man in which one > > could depend upon. Most of the time, in which he was centered in > > Jerusalem, his job was that of inspector which meant following the > > bulldozers. As Jerusalem was in the midst of an unprecedented > > building phase and we were always short handed, he on occasion was > > asked to clear a tomb which had been accidentally discovered by > > building contractors. Such is the case with the Talpiot tomb. As > > Josef, despite his many years with the Dept. of Antiquities had > > authored but one article, it was a mystery to all of us, why he was > > receiving posthumously such an award. The acceptance speech by his > > elderly wife that he had known about the importance of the find and > > it's implications but kept it quiet is hard to understand as the > > ossuary inscriptions had not been deciphered nor published until > > after his death. The cynical use of the Holocaust story as to why > > Josef kept quiet, over something he was unable to decipher, should > > be clear to all, the lengths which film makers will go in order to > > be, in the words of Simcha 'vindicated', which he immediately > > reported to the press. The first media release was, without delay, > > sent off by an organization J9 which is the same organization which > > sent out PR releases on two of his earlier documentaries. The > > second (I'm vindicated) article was written by a long time personal > > friend of Simcha's and it included some rather interesting quotes > > from an anonymous source quoting the late Amir Drori, supporting > > his 'vindication'. So we now have proof, from two deceased > > archaeologists and an anonymous source, in the style of the film > > maker Oliver Stone, that the whole thing was a conspiracy designed > > to cover up something which would harm Vatican relations and promote > > anti-Semitism. Josef Gat, would have not agreed nor accepted such a > > cynical award. Now that the damage has been done they are claiming > > on their blogs that they were misunderstood, ill advised etc. and > > that the jury is still out on their claim, whereas the truth is just > > the opposite, the overwhelming majority, if not nearly all scholars > > present regarded this but as an attempt to achieve fame and fortune > > at the expense of colleagues and the profession. > > > > Lastly, Cameron, Discovery, Simcha, Tabor and a few others have a > > multi million dollar agenda riding on this, not including their > > reputation. Remember the first story on this in 1996, (a few years > > before Dan Brown), a front page article in the British press, sans, > > the media hype, the books, agents, the advances from publishers; it > > was dead a dead story within 48 hours until it was 'resurrected' by > > the above. It's time we rebury it. > > > > Joe Zias > > Science and Archaeology Group- Jerusalem Also: > > > > > > Two statements, feel free to circulate. > > Joe > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com > > Anthropology/Paleopathology > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem > > Jerusalem, Israel > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Goodacre has a copy of it here: > > > > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html > > > > > > > > I think list folk may find it well worth reading. > > > > -- > > ++++++++++++++++ > > > > Jim West, ThD > > > > http://drjimwest.wordpress.com > > > > http://drjewest.googlepages.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/22c75ed6/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 21 18:00:08 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:00:08 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: <1d04e0430801211518t4f6303c6t2c848fb74e69b6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com><1936353473-1200950083-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1744393306-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><8D39FEFD-8B7F-4D53-ACB5-DD69A3B8D7BD@earthlink.net><1d04e0430801211518t4f6303c6t2c848fb74e69b6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <671617023-1200960233-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1005595069-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Denny, I'm pretty sure from where I sit that if I wanted to know more about integrity, you would not be my choice for a mentor. Later man. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Denny Johnson" Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:18:33 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results James, I thought you made that decision the last time, but you are the one who brought it up here again. Seeing as you were making this a forum for your views on Talipot, I thought it would be beneficial to all to get the perspective from others involved. Also included was a blog from Mark Goodacre. Most here on this list probably have no idea of all that is involved in this discussion. I am quite impartial at this point. Stand on your integrity. Denny On Jan 21, 2008 4:52 PM, James Tabor > wrote: My suggestion is that this topic, and particularly my personal involvement and record with the Talpiot tomb, which is on my Blog in great detail, not become the subject of dialogue on this list. It has nothing to do with our central purpose and I know Ross would agree but has been too occupied to respond. Mutual respect, trust, and good will are central to our exchanges. Thanks, James On Jan 21, 2008, at 4:11 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > So Denny, > > How came you by this? ?Why would one of "Tabors supporters" forward > a private email to one his known detractors? > > Just interested in your definition of balance! > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Denny Johnson" < dennyj at gmail.com > > > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:33:12 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results > > > Hello all. This is something we have been following closely and I > just received more information to keep things balanced regarding > this subject. This also may be forwarded with permission of the > author, Joe Zias. > > > > The Talpiot tomb- deliberate misrepresentation? > > When first approached by conference organizers to participate in the > Princeton University three day symposium, I along with several > colleagues refused. My refusal was due to the fact that I had first > hand experience with Simcha, Tabor and company over the film as well > as Tabors book and saw their deliberate manipulation of anthro/arch > data in order to pursue their agenda, namely TV ratings and book > sales. Professor Charlesworths request that I participate was due to > the fact that I was directly involved as curator with the Israel > Antiquities Authority (1972-1997) with the find. In fact, my > position required that I receive all ossuaries, catalogue, prepare > the anthropological report on the human skeletal remains and store > them in the Rockefeller Museum. Furthermore, I worked closely with > Professor Kloner the Jerusalem ?head archaeologist along with Dr. LY > Rahmani who authored the catalogue on 895 ossuaries in which the > Talpiot tomb ossuaries are published. Two colleagues (Kloner and > Spigelman) asked me to change my position on participating and I did > upon condition that my presentation would avoid the Talpiot tomb > controversy as I regarded it as finished shortly after it was shown > on TV in America. Thus my presentation dealt with the contribution > of anthropology to archaeology, particularly the cemetery at Qumran > and crucifixion. > > The day before the symposium opened I was sent by one of Tabors > supporters in the US a memo composed by Tabor in which he stated > "This is a dream come through (sic) for me and something Simcha and > I have worked for, behind the scenes, with Prof. James > Charlesworth". I immediately forwarded it to Professor Charlesworth, > believing that this was proof of what I had suspected all along, > outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the > agenda and skew the proceedings in a way which were favorable to > their pre-conceived plan. Charlesworth previously unaware of this > forwarded it to Tabor however by this time many things, which we > learned later, had been set in place. For example, on the third day > there was a panel discussing the Talpiot tomb in which one panelist > with no experience whatsoever with the topic or any peer reviewed > published research articles appeared as an expert. He, unknown to > all of us in the world of archaeology both here and abroad, was the > lone supporter of Simcha and Tabor. According to his short resume > which was handed out to participants, it would appear that he, like > Simcha is from the world of journalism as it mentions "over 1,000 > articles' in newspapers and magazines " ?and nothing to do with > Second Temple archaeology. ?By this time, my worst expectations were > coming true as several sound and camera men with whom I had worked > with previously suddenly appeared on the scene, now working for > Simcha. > > The Lifetime Achievement Award which was presented to Mrs. Josef Gat > on behalf of her late husband had to be one of the lowest depths > which archaeology has descended in over 30 years. I had known Josef > Gat and worked with him in the Dept. of Antiquities until his > retirement. He was a quite, honest, hard working man in which one > could depend upon. Most of the time, in which he was centered in > Jerusalem, his job was that of inspector which meant following the > bulldozers. As Jerusalem was in the midst of an unprecedented > building phase and we were always short handed, he on occasion was > asked to clear a tomb which had been accidentally discovered by > building contractors. Such is the case with the Talpiot tomb. As > Josef, despite his many years with the Dept. of Antiquities had > authored but one article, it was a mystery to all of us, why he was > receiving posthumously such an award. The acceptance speech by his > elderly wife that he had known about the importance of the find and > it's implications but kept it quiet is hard to understand as the > ossuary inscriptions had not been deciphered nor published until > after his death. The cynical use of the Holocaust story as to why > Josef kept quiet, over something he was unable to decipher, should > be clear to all, the lengths which film makers will go in order to > be, in the words of Simcha 'vindicated', which he immediately > reported to the press. The first media release was, without delay, > sent off by an organization J9 which is the same organization which > sent out PR releases on two of his earlier documentaries. ?The > second (I'm vindicated) article was written by a long time personal > friend of Simcha's and it included some rather interesting quotes > from an anonymous source quoting the late Amir Drori, ?supporting > his 'vindication'. ?So we now have proof, from two deceased > archaeologists and an anonymous source, in the style of the film > maker Oliver Stone, that the whole thing was a conspiracy designed > to cover up something which would harm Vatican relations and promote > anti-Semitism. ?Josef Gat, would have not agreed nor accepted such a > cynical award. ?Now that the damage has been done they are claiming > on their blogs that they were misunderstood, ill advised etc. and > that the jury is still out on their claim, whereas the truth is just > the opposite, the overwhelming majority, if not nearly all scholars > present regarded this but as an attempt to achieve fame and fortune > at the expense of colleagues and the profession. > > Lastly, Cameron, Discovery, Simcha, Tabor and a few others have a > multi million dollar agenda riding on this, not including their > reputation. Remember the first story on this in 1996, (a few years > before Dan Brown), a front page article in the British press, sans, > the media hype, the books, agents, the advances from publishers; it > was dead a dead story within 48 hours until it was 'resurrected' by > the above. ?It's time we rebury it. > > Joe Zias > Science and Archaeology Group- Jerusalem Also: > > > Two statements, feel free to circulate. > Joe > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com > > Anthropology/Paleopathology > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem > Jerusalem, Israel > > > > > > Mark Goodacre has a copy of it here: > > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html > > > > > I think list folk may find it well worth reading. > > -- > ++++++++++++++++ > > Jim West, ThD > > http://drjimwest.wordpress.com > > > http://drjewest.googlepages.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 21 18:13:18 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:13:18 EST Subject: [Dialogue] My latest PR... Message-ID: Shalom to all, Well, indeed it happened again - one week ago exactly, having a Biblical verse # pop into my head. I have spent the entire week trying to figure out what it means for me (when you've been in Operations Management professionally, you always try to figure out 'what do I do next?'). I am beyond unnerved and discomforted by this, because until recently, this has never, ever happened to me. Also, since I am not familiar with the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) in a Chapter/Verse manner - until I get to a Tanach - I have no idea where I'm being led... I mentioned this happening to me to a few old pals on the list last week, trying to determine what it 'all' means. Honestly, I get goose bumps whenever I think of this whole experience....I am trying to just sort of, 'open up myself to the experience,' and hope that it adds up to pointing me in a particular direction, and/or with a plan of action. It's clear it has to do with the 'Ten Tribes' - but I have not gotten beyond that general direction yet. If anyone has some 'pop theories' they want to share with me - go for it! I am opening myself up to a whole new world of experiencing a spiritual connection with HaShem that I (obviously) did not have before. Okay, so this is what happened: I was walking toward the Subway, last Monday morning at approximately 9:05AM, with my mind cluttered with that night's Board Meeting that I had to attend, and feeling sorry for myself that I would likely not get home until midnight, at best. All of a sudden, I 'sense' - I certainly didn't 'hear' anything, Amos....and then the number 11, then 8, then 8:11.....now, my sense of these PR's (for me, in any case..) is that I get a verse to start with, and then I'm supposed to continue reading...at least for another Chapter, or so. Well, still had to get on the Subway - an experience that's the antithesis of anything spiritual! It took me almost 2 hours to get to work, and get up to my office and open a Tanach. First, I looked for Amos, the 11th Chapter. Everyone, open up your Tanach to Amos, Chapter 11.....ha! There isn't one.....But there IS a Chapter 8....and a verse 11....and it wasn't until I read it in Hebrew that I realized what it was..... "A time is coming - declares my L-rd G-d --- when I will send a famine upon the land: not a hunger for bread or a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of the L-rd." Amos 8:11 But then as I scanned downward on the page, I startled myself when I found THIS in the very next Chapter: "But I will not wholly wipe out the House of Jacob --- declares the L-rd. For I will give the order and shake the House of Israel ---- Through all the nations ----- As one shakes (sand) in a sieve, And not a pebble falls to the ground." Amos 9:8&9 Okay, so at this point, I'm looking around for Rod Serling to step in and explain that I'm in the "Twilight Zone," or something. But no Rod, no further explanation....and I've wrestled all week with this, hoping to come to a conclusion (of some sort) before bringing it to you folks. But I have had no further insight...at least not yet. Had to tell you guys.... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/b0ba8f89/attachment.html From dennyj at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 18:29:58 2008 From: dennyj at gmail.com (Denny Johnson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:29:58 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: <671617023-1200960233-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1005595069-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com> <1936353473-1200950083-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1744393306-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <8D39FEFD-8B7F-4D53-ACB5-DD69A3B8D7BD@earthlink.net> <1d04e0430801211518t4f6303c6t2c848fb74e69b6f@mail.gmail.com> <671617023-1200960233-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1005595069-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <1d04e0430801211629p6e506237j21d38a3dedd64ace@mail.gmail.com> John, Yeah, you're probably right. From where I sit, I probably don't belong here. Sorry to disappoint you. Movin' on down the road. Denny On Jan 21, 2008 6:00 PM, wrote: > Denny, > > I'm pretty sure from where I sit that if I wanted to know more about > integrity, you would not be my choice for a mentor. > > Later man. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Denny Johnson" > > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:18:33 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results > > > James, > > I thought you made that decision the last time, but you are the one who > brought it up here again. > Seeing as you were making this a forum for your views on Talipot, I > thought it would be beneficial to all to get the perspective from others > involved. Also included was a blog from Mark Goodacre. Most here on this > list probably have no idea of all that is involved in this discussion. I am > quite impartial at this point. > > Stand on your integrity. > > Denny > > > > On Jan 21, 2008 4:52 PM, James Tabor jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> > wrote: > My suggestion is that this topic, and particularly my personal > involvement and record with the Talpiot tomb, which is on my Blog in > great detail, not become the subject of dialogue on this list. It has > nothing to do with our central purpose and I know Ross would agree but > has been too occupied to respond. Mutual respect, trust, and good will > are central to our exchanges. > > Thanks, > > James > > > > > > On Jan 21, 2008, at 4:11 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote: > > > So Denny, > > > > How came you by this? Why would one of "Tabors supporters" forward > > a private email to one his known detractors? > > > > Just interested in your definition of balance! > > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Denny Johnson" < > dennyj at gmail.com > > > > > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:33:12 > > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results > > > > > > Hello all. This is something we have been following closely and I > > just received more information to keep things balanced regarding > > this subject. This also may be forwarded with permission of the > > author, Joe Zias. > > > > > > > > The Talpiot tomb- deliberate misrepresentation? > > > > When first approached by conference organizers to participate in the > > Princeton University three day symposium, I along with several > > colleagues refused. My refusal was due to the fact that I had first > > hand experience with Simcha, Tabor and company over the film as well > > as Tabors book and saw their deliberate manipulation of anthro/arch > > data in order to pursue their agenda, namely TV ratings and book > > sales. Professor Charlesworths request that I participate was due to > > the fact that I was directly involved as curator with the Israel > > Antiquities Authority (1972-1997) with the find. In fact, my > > position required that I receive all ossuaries, catalogue, prepare > > the anthropological report on the human skeletal remains and store > > them in the Rockefeller Museum. Furthermore, I worked closely with > > Professor Kloner the Jerusalem head archaeologist along with Dr. LY > > Rahmani who authored the catalogue on 895 ossuaries in which the > > Talpiot tomb ossuaries are published. Two colleagues (Kloner and > > Spigelman) asked me to change my position on participating and I did > > upon condition that my presentation would avoid the Talpiot tomb > > controversy as I regarded it as finished shortly after it was shown > > on TV in America. Thus my presentation dealt with the contribution > > of anthropology to archaeology, particularly the cemetery at Qumran > > and crucifixion. > > > > The day before the symposium opened I was sent by one of Tabors > > supporters in the US a memo composed by Tabor in which he stated > > "This is a dream come through (sic) for me and something Simcha and > > I have worked for, behind the scenes, with Prof. James > > Charlesworth". I immediately forwarded it to Professor Charlesworth, > > believing that this was proof of what I had suspected all along, > > outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the > > agenda and skew the proceedings in a way which were favorable to > > their pre-conceived plan. Charlesworth previously unaware of this > > forwarded it to Tabor however by this time many things, which we > > learned later, had been set in place. For example, on the third day > > there was a panel discussing the Talpiot tomb in which one panelist > > with no experience whatsoever with the topic or any peer reviewed > > published research articles appeared as an expert. He, unknown to > > all of us in the world of archaeology both here and abroad, was the > > lone supporter of Simcha and Tabor. According to his short resume > > which was handed out to participants, it would appear that he, like > > Simcha is from the world of journalism as it mentions "over 1,000 > > articles' in newspapers and magazines " and nothing to do with > > Second Temple archaeology. By this time, my worst expectations were > > coming true as several sound and camera men with whom I had worked > > with previously suddenly appeared on the scene, now working for > > Simcha. > > > > The Lifetime Achievement Award which was presented to Mrs. Josef Gat > > on behalf of her late husband had to be one of the lowest depths > > which archaeology has descended in over 30 years. I had known Josef > > Gat and worked with him in the Dept. of Antiquities until his > > retirement. He was a quite, honest, hard working man in which one > > could depend upon. Most of the time, in which he was centered in > > Jerusalem, his job was that of inspector which meant following the > > bulldozers. As Jerusalem was in the midst of an unprecedented > > building phase and we were always short handed, he on occasion was > > asked to clear a tomb which had been accidentally discovered by > > building contractors. Such is the case with the Talpiot tomb. As > > Josef, despite his many years with the Dept. of Antiquities had > > authored but one article, it was a mystery to all of us, why he was > > receiving posthumously such an award. The acceptance speech by his > > elderly wife that he had known about the importance of the find and > > it's implications but kept it quiet is hard to understand as the > > ossuary inscriptions had not been deciphered nor published until > > after his death. The cynical use of the Holocaust story as to why > > Josef kept quiet, over something he was unable to decipher, should > > be clear to all, the lengths which film makers will go in order to > > be, in the words of Simcha 'vindicated', which he immediately > > reported to the press. The first media release was, without delay, > > sent off by an organization J9 which is the same organization which > > sent out PR releases on two of his earlier documentaries. The > > second (I'm vindicated) article was written by a long time personal > > friend of Simcha's and it included some rather interesting quotes > > from an anonymous source quoting the late Amir Drori, supporting > > his 'vindication'. So we now have proof, from two deceased > > archaeologists and an anonymous source, in the style of the film > > maker Oliver Stone, that the whole thing was a conspiracy designed > > to cover up something which would harm Vatican relations and promote > > anti-Semitism. Josef Gat, would have not agreed nor accepted such a > > cynical award. Now that the damage has been done they are claiming > > on their blogs that they were misunderstood, ill advised etc. and > > that the jury is still out on their claim, whereas the truth is just > > the opposite, the overwhelming majority, if not nearly all scholars > > present regarded this but as an attempt to achieve fame and fortune > > at the expense of colleagues and the profession. > > > > Lastly, Cameron, Discovery, Simcha, Tabor and a few others have a > > multi million dollar agenda riding on this, not including their > > reputation. Remember the first story on this in 1996, (a few years > > before Dan Brown), a front page article in the British press, sans, > > the media hype, the books, agents, the advances from publishers; it > > was dead a dead story within 48 hours until it was 'resurrected' by > > the above. It's time we rebury it. > > > > Joe Zias > > Science and Archaeology Group- Jerusalem Also: > > > > > > Two statements, feel free to circulate. > > Joe > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com < > http://www.joezias.com > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem > > Jerusalem, Israel > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Goodacre has a copy of it here: > > > > > > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html< > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html > > > > < > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html > < > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html > > > > > > > > > I think list folk may find it well worth reading. > > > > -- > > ++++++++++++++++ > > > > Jim West, ThD > > > > > http://drjimwest.wordpress.com < > http://drjimwest.wordpress.com/ > > > > > http://drjewest.googlepages.com > http://drjewest.googlepages.com/> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/6a30c6ae/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jan 21 18:30:14 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:30:14 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results Message-ID: Denny, I'm really surprised....what are you doing with posting this, and responding the way you did?? You wrote: Most here on this list probably have no idea of all that is involved in this discussion. I am quite impartial at this point. Okay, so if most people here have no idea, they likely have NO INTEREST in it, and/or know where to go for more info. Denny - if you are impartial and interested, then study it, but keep it off this list - there's NO reason for it to be here.... And then you ended with: Stand on your integrity. What's up with that?!?! Why are you attacking James, particularly when you say that Most here on this list probably have no idea of all that is involved in this discussion.... Then what really IS your agenda in posting this? Why are you doing it then? This is NOT what this list is about....I am really, really surprised... Really disappointed in the Big Apple, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/f8243efb/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 21 18:32:51 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:32:51 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results Message-ID: <012220080032.20010.479539B30008CF1100004E2A22230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Denny, It would appear upon casual observation that perhaps you are not nearly as impartial as you imply. I for one am more than mildly interested in your motivation for posting Zias' letter here. Perhaps you would indulge my curiosity by way of some helpful elucidation? Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/95611ad8/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 21 19:00:03 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:00:03 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <03b101c85c92$1f302a50$643c66c9@bettygivin> Denny, In the past, we have had many pleasant exchanges on the list regarding our common backgrounds, etc. Many of us have prayed for your family (for Mady, Susan, Barb and Steve) and you have prayed for us. Your family and Dave's family just shared a virtual Shabbat dinner which I understand was very special and meaningful to all involved. Just today, you reached out in compassion and offered to pray for Roger and for me regarding our work situation and I appreciate that. These type things are good and that, in my opinion, these things are what dialogue is all about.learning, sharing, growing and praying for one another as we each strive to follow the path of G-d and Torah in our daily lives. I have purposely held back on this discussion because obviously those who know me probably know that James is my brother, but I cannot hold back any longer. I along with a multitude of others can certainly vouch for James' integrity; but he really doesn't need anyone to vouch for him nor to instruct him in it. He stands on it every day. I simply do not understand your motivation here; and it would honestly make no difference whether these posts involved my brother or not; it is really a matter of principle. Since James has requested that we refrain from this topic, I will honor that request not speak of this further, but I just had to be honest and get this out of my system. I am disappointed, surprised, appalled and mystified. Shalom, Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 6:30 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results Denny, I'm really surprised....what are you doing with posting this, and responding the way you did?? You wrote: Most here on this list probably have no idea of all that is involved in this discussion. I am quite impartial at this point. Okay, so if most people here have no idea, they likely have NO INTEREST in it, and/or know where to go for more info. Denny - if you are impartial and interested, then study it, but keep it off this list - there's NO reason for it to be here.... And then you ended with: Stand on your integrity. What's up with that?!?! Why are you attacking James, particularly when you say that Most here on this list probably have no idea of all that is involved in this discussion.... Then what really IS your agenda in posting this? Why are you doing it then? This is NOT what this list is about....I am really, really surprised... Really disappointed in the Big Apple, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/8bc27065/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Mon Jan 21 19:34:49 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:34:49 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote and a PR for 14 Shevat 5768 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801220134.m0M1Ykow025612@mail114c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/8898ca8b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 21 20:10:01 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:10:01 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My latest PR... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <03c901c85c9b$e5575010$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear Hanoch, First of all, thank you for entrusting us with your PR. I think there are others far more qualified to answer than myself, but I was so excited for you that I had to respond. My thoughts are probably premature, but nevertheless, I think that perhaps they may have some validity. First of all, regarding Amos 8:11, there does seem at this present time a famine upon the land and a hunger for the Bread or maybe the ''Man" (Manna) and the "Mayim Chayim" of Torah! People are being awakened by "spiritual hunger pains" and throats that are parched because we have left the "fountain of living waters" and have substituted broken cisterns instead! (Chapter and verse???). I don't think our little group is alone. People in the churches are awakening to their roots and discovering that they are probably of the "lost sheep of the House of Israel." I have two friends (Noah and Leah, not Jewish) who have been raised in Catholicism who called me yesterday.they are turning to G-d and Torah! They are all by themselves in a little South Texas town.HaShem is calling his people home.He is creating a hunger and thirst in the diaspora TODAY: and in a sense, with the launching of Tuesday Night in Jerusalem Live TV broadcast, that there is also a parallel hunger and thirst presently going on in Israel and a call from Jerusalem to the Nations to bring back g-d's children from the four corners of the earth. Granted, when they are calling G-d's children home, they may not know that there will be those of Joseph, their lost brother, who will also be responding.like Jacob of old, they will no doubt say, "Who are these?" But once they get to know us, like you have, Hanoch, they will know that we are all family. If I am correct Amos was written between 780-755 bce before the exile. Perhaps this prophecy came to pass at least in part when the Northern Kingdom was taken away into Assyrian captivity. Amos is prophesying that Israel is depraved.that no one cares about the "ruin (or breech) of Yosef" (Amos 6:6), and that Israel would be led away into exile out of their own land ( (Amos 7:11). Certainly we know from our study of the prophets, that often things that happened once will happen again. The context of your PR seems that it could be of that nature. For the verses immediately afterwards speak of people running to and fro and not finding the "word of the L-rd." There is a lot of talk these days about G-d, but how many are finding him? But since the dispersion has already taken place, I tend to think that this part is speaking of the past.as in the next part of you PR. Amos 9:8&9 - it seems that that has happened; the House of Israel has definitely been shaken through all the nations.and sifted through a sieve, but HaShem promises that not a pebble will fall to the ground.not one will be lost! So, what does this mean for you, Hanoch, for us??? You are obviously of Judah, yet you are getting a PR regarding Joseph.why is that? I think maybe you have figured it out. If you read the passages inbetween, which I am sure you have, Hanoch, they can be scary.all that impending doom.yet we know that the story has a good ending.G-d's people will be once again planted in the land, never again to be uprooted! Amos 8:15! I am sure that others will probably have more in-depth things to say.I just wanted to make a start!!! Hag Tu'B'Shevat & B'Ahava to all, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] My latest PR... Shalom to all, Well, indeed it happened again - one week ago exactly, having a Biblical verse # pop into my head. I have spent the entire week trying to figure out what it means for me (when you've been in Operations Management professionally, you always try to figure out 'what do I do next?'). I am beyond unnerved and discomforted by this, because until recently, this has never, ever happened to me. Also, since I am not familiar with the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) in a Chapter/Verse manner - until I get to a Tanach - I have no idea where I'm being led... I mentioned this happening to me to a few old pals on the list last week, trying to determine what it 'all' means. Honestly, I get goose bumps whenever I think of this whole experience....I am trying to just sort of, 'open up myself to the experience,' and hope that it adds up to pointing me in a particular direction, and/or with a plan of action. It's clear it has to do with the 'Ten Tribes' - but I have not gotten beyond that general direction yet. If anyone has some 'pop theories' they want to share with me - go for it! I am opening myself up to a whole new world of experiencing a spiritual connection with HaShem that I (obviously) did not have before. Okay, so this is what happened: I was walking toward the Subway, last Monday morning at approximately 9:05AM, with my mind cluttered with that night's Board Meeting that I had to attend, and feeling sorry for myself that I would likely not get home until midnight, at best. All of a sudden, I 'sense' - I certainly didn't 'hear' anything, Amos....and then the number 11, then 8, then 8:11.....now, my sense of these PR's (for me, in any case..) is that I get a verse to start with, and then I'm supposed to continue reading...at least for another Chapter, or so. Well, still had to get on the Subway - an experience that's the antithesis of anything spiritual! It took me almost 2 hours to get to work, and get up to my office and open a Tanach. First, I looked for Amos, the 11th Chapter. Everyone, open up your Tanach to Amos, Chapter 11.....ha! There isn't one.....But there IS a Chapter 8....and a verse 11....and it wasn't until I read it in Hebrew that I realized what it was..... "A time is coming - declares my L-rd G-d --- when I will send a famine upon the land: not a hunger for bread or a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of the L-rd." Amos 8:11 But then as I scanned downward on the page, I startled myself when I found THIS in the very next Chapter: "But I will not wholly wipe out the House of Jacob --- declares the L-rd. For I will give the order and shake the House of Israel ---- Through all the nations ----- As one shakes (sand) in a sieve, And not a pebble falls to the ground." Amos 9:8&9 Okay, so at this point, I'm looking around for Rod Serling to step in and explain that I'm in the "Twilight Zone," or something. But no Rod, no further explanation....and I've wrestled all week with this, hoping to come to a conclusion (of some sort) before bringing it to you folks. But I have had no further insight...at least not yet. Had to tell you guys.... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/350e2fd1/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jan 21 20:11:36 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:11:36 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote and a PR for 14 Shevat 5768 In-Reply-To: <200801220134.m0M1Ykow025612@mail114c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <03ce01c85c9c$1e6f66d0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Well spoken as always, Steve. Toda Rabba, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 7:35 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Quote and a PR for 14 Shevat 5768 Hello All, Speaking of guarding one's mouth and PRs and SEs, one of the most probable way to obtain them is to ask God re what one needs to know / do regarding one's character or unknown, unconscious sins. This is what David prayed about, that he would be revealed his "hidden" sins, the ones that were hidden from himself, (Psalm 19:12). My experience has been that is the subject matter that God is most likely to answer on immediately. Try it. Exhibit "A", to that end, I received a PR one time: "Set a watch , O LORD before my mouth; keep the door of my lips." (Psalm 141:3). A timely Divine correction / tikkun if I ever got one, and guess what, I really needed it then, (and still do), for I was involved in it!! Hey Yikarim, as Hanoch calls you all! I am reminding you all for asking for the Ruach to indwell our prayers starting this Tu b'Shvat.....am expecting all of us to not only celebrate this festival, for its traditional reasons of being thankful for the fruitfulness of the trees God has created for us, but as the day when we ALL purposefully and deliberately beseech Him on behalf of the whole Restoration Movement, and are "standing in" for all those who are yet to come out of the Valley of Dry Bones, that HaShem rain down on us "the latter rain" (Hos. 6:3) of the holy Spirit to empower us, and open doors in front of us so we may do the task that He has for us to do, as the "first contingent to arise from the Vally of Dry Bones." I hope and pray you will all get very "wet" with the Spirit, tonight and tomorrow, and from here on out..... Steve At 04:12 AM 1/21/2008, you wrote: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, a quote from the Lekarev Report... He who guards his mouth and his tongue, preserves his soul from troubles. Proverbs 21:23 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/10959351/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Jan 21 23:08:30 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:08:30 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] My latest PR... Message-ID: <012220080508.22901.47957A4B000B039A0000597522230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hanoch, Don't know if it will help but it's been my experience that when I receive a verse of this type (usually it's when I'm already reading and it jumps out, not just popping into my head) it is the answer to something that I have been struggling with; a question or a situation. On the surface these verses are obviously related to the things we have been discussing on the list but the question is what does it mean for you personally? Think back over some of the thoughts that you have been wrestling over, especially gaps in understanding of a personal situation. Shalom. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Shalom to all, Well, indeed it happened again - one week ago exactly, having a Biblical verse # pop into my head. I have spent the entire week trying to figure out what it means for me (when you've been in Operations Management professionally, you always try to figure out 'what do I do next?'). I am beyond unnerved and discomforted by this, because until recently, this has never, ever happened to me. Also, since I am not familiar with the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) in a Chapter/Verse manner - until I get to a Tanach - I have no idea where I'm being led... I mentioned this happening to me to a few old pals on the list last week, trying to determine what it 'all' means. Honestly, I get goose bumps whenever I think of this whole experience....I am trying to just sort of, 'open up myself to the experience,' and hope that it adds up to pointing me in a particular direction, and/or with a plan of action. It's clear it has to do with the 'Ten Tribes' - but I have not gotten beyond that general direction yet. If anyone has some 'pop theories' they want to share with me - go for it! I am opening myself up to a whole new world of experiencing a spiritual connection with HaShem that I (obviously) did not have before. Okay, so this is what happened: I was walking toward the Subway, last Monday morning at approximately 9:05AM, with my mind cluttered with that night's Board Meeting that I had to attend, and feeling sorry for myself that I would likely not get home until midnight, at best. All of a sudden, I 'sense' - I certainly didn't 'hear' anything, Amos....and then the number 11, then 8, then 8:11.....now, my sense of these PR's (for me, in any case..) is that I get a verse to start with, and then I'm supposed to continue reading...at least for another Chapter, or so. Well, still had to get on the Subway - an experience that's the antithesis of anything spiritual! It took me almost 2 hours to get to work, and get up to my office and open a Tanach. First, I looked for Amos, the 11th Chapter. Everyone, open up your Tanach to Amos, Chapter 11.....ha! There isn't one.....But there IS a Chapter 8....and a verse 11....and it wasn't until I read it in Hebrew that I realized what it was..... "A time is coming - declares my L-rd G-d --- when I will send a famine upon the land: not a hunger for bread or a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of the L-rd." Amos 8:11 But then as I scanned downward on the page, I startled myself when I found THIS in the very next Chapter: "But I will not wholly wipe out the House of Jacob --- declares the L-rd. For I will give the order and shake the House of Israel ---- Through all the nations ----- As one shakes (sand) in a sieve, And not a pebble falls to the ground." Amos 9:8&9 Okay, so at this point, I'm looking around for Rod Serling to step in and explain that I'm in the "Twilight Zone," or something. But no Rod, no further explanation....and I've wrestled all week with this, hoping to come to a conclusion (of some sort) before bringing it to you folks. But I have had no further insight...at least not yet. Had to tell you guys.... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/59a4702f/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Mon Jan 21 23:38:05 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:38:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results References: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com><1936353473-1200950083-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1744393306-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><8D39FEFD-8B7F-4D53-ACB5-DD69A3B8D7BD@earthlink.net><1d04e0430801211518t4f6303c6t2c848fb74e69b6f@mail.gmail.com> <24D7167E-07E9-4930-894B-F46366FAA097@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <009a01c85cb8$f7186c90$6400a8c0@davesbook> All, Today I planted lots of trees....as I will do tomorrow. (of course this is my Job!). I get home and can't wait to get the ole shoes off an check the mail......Well today I wish there had been none. We, as a group, have decided to converse with each other and to share our thoughts, dreams, ideas, in a forum that MUST respect these ideas, dreams, thoughts, EVEN what we do for a livelihood, hopefully with a spirit of truth and respect. Are we (the list) afraid of different schools of thought? I say NO....the fact that this list even exists proves this. What concerns me is when a persons motives are not clear and begins to ask questions or make comments that appear to challenge the integrity of some. The result is anti dialogue. Its a matter of trust. One must state "this is what I see, what do you see" I write this letter trusting that I have somehow earned the respect that others may know my motives. If I felt that every thing I said was being used to damage my reputation as a fellow human, then guess what.....I would not share what I know or in my case.....don't know. Hopefully this request that I am making will open some dialogue of how we can show respect and at the same time critique others ideals and thoughts. My request is that Denny will fully explain his motives. And that Dr. Tabor will not withdraw from sharing with this list. Denny, most of the people on this list FULLY understand (Google James Tabor)James Is dealing with a situation that is very volatile and has taken a position that is in it self a balance. Other wise I don't think many people would have ever had any information. Most folks want this to go away, and that in itself is most of the problem. This whole subject has been buried by motives that are just now coming to light. James, understand that if Denny really wanted to know you he would take the time to do that, and not just throw out a 'balance' from a group that clearly just wants this whole subject to just disappear. I am not trying to get every one to hold hands and sing.......but I am attempting to allow for honest dialogue that will inspire folks to seek out for them self what is and what aint. We all need friends. As a side note I find it interesting that much of our discussions lately have been about dead bones......isn't that strange? forgive me for butting in............... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results Dear Denny, I am talking about personal insult and slander as I said clearly below. My report, circulated for information, was balanced and objective, it was not a a post on my views of Talpiot, or perhaps you did not read it. It did not attack individuals or accuse them falsely of lying, greed, or such things. It has been reposted, for example, on Bock's Blog, and he is an evangelical who disagrees with me on the Tomb, but we treat one another with respect. The post on Mark Goodacre's site is also professional and respectful. In fact, if you read the two you will see that what I wrote echoes some of that. That said, I would rather not be instructed by you to stand on my integrity. James On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:18 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: James, I thought you made that decision the last time, but you are the one who brought it up here again. Seeing as you were making this a forum for your views on Talipot, I thought it would be beneficial to all to get the perspective from others involved. Also included was a blog from Mark Goodacre. Most here on this list probably have no idea of all that is involved in this discussion. I am quite impartial at this point. Stand on your integrity. Denny On Jan 21, 2008 4:52 PM, James Tabor wrote: My suggestion is that this topic, and particularly my personal involvement and record with the Talpiot tomb, which is on my Blog in great detail, not become the subject of dialogue on this list. It has nothing to do with our central purpose and I know Ross would agree but has been too occupied to respond. Mutual respect, trust, and good will are central to our exchanges. Thanks, James On Jan 21, 2008, at 4:11 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > So Denny, > > How came you by this? Why would one of "Tabors supporters" forward > a private email to one his known detractors? > > Just interested in your definition of balance! > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Denny Johnson" < dennyj at gmail.com> > > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:33:12 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results > > > Hello all. This is something we have been following closely and I > just received more information to keep things balanced regarding > this subject. This also may be forwarded with permission of the > author, Joe Zias. > > > > The Talpiot tomb- deliberate misrepresentation? > > When first approached by conference organizers to participate in the > Princeton University three day symposium, I along with several > colleagues refused. My refusal was due to the fact that I had first > hand experience with Simcha, Tabor and company over the film as well > as Tabors book and saw their deliberate manipulation of anthro/arch > data in order to pursue their agenda, namely TV ratings and book > sales. Professor Charlesworths request that I participate was due to > the fact that I was directly involved as curator with the Israel > Antiquities Authority (1972-1997) with the find. In fact, my > position required that I receive all ossuaries, catalogue, prepare > the anthropological report on the human skeletal remains and store > them in the Rockefeller Museum. Furthermore, I worked closely with > Professor Kloner the Jerusalem head archaeologist along with Dr. LY > Rahmani who authored the catalogue on 895 ossuaries in which the > Talpiot tomb ossuaries are published. Two colleagues (Kloner and > Spigelman) asked me to change my position on participating and I did > upon condition that my presentation would avoid the Talpiot tomb > controversy as I regarded it as finished shortly after it was shown > on TV in America. Thus my presentation dealt with the contribution > of anthropology to archaeology, particularly the cemetery at Qumran > and crucifixion. > > The day before the symposium opened I was sent by one of Tabors > supporters in the US a memo composed by Tabor in which he stated > "This is a dream come through (sic) for me and something Simcha and > I have worked for, behind the scenes, with Prof. James > Charlesworth". I immediately forwarded it to Professor Charlesworth, > believing that this was proof of what I had suspected all along, > outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the > agenda and skew the proceedings in a way which were favorable to > their pre-conceived plan. Charlesworth previously unaware of this > forwarded it to Tabor however by this time many things, which we > learned later, had been set in place. For example, on the third day > there was a panel discussing the Talpiot tomb in which one panelist > with no experience whatsoever with the topic or any peer reviewed > published research articles appeared as an expert. He, unknown to > all of us in the world of archaeology both here and abroad, was the > lone supporter of Simcha and Tabor. According to his short resume > which was handed out to participants, it would appear that he, like > Simcha is from the world of journalism as it mentions "over 1,000 > articles' in newspapers and magazines " and nothing to do with > Second Temple archaeology. By this time, my worst expectations were > coming true as several sound and camera men with whom I had worked > with previously suddenly appeared on the scene, now working for > Simcha. > > The Lifetime Achievement Award which was presented to Mrs. Josef Gat > on behalf of her late husband had to be one of the lowest depths > which archaeology has descended in over 30 years. I had known Josef > Gat and worked with him in the Dept. of Antiquities until his > retirement. He was a quite, honest, hard working man in which one > could depend upon. Most of the time, in which he was centered in > Jerusalem, his job was that of inspector which meant following the > bulldozers. As Jerusalem was in the midst of an unprecedented > building phase and we were always short handed, he on occasion was > asked to clear a tomb which had been accidentally discovered by > building contractors. Such is the case with the Talpiot tomb. As > Josef, despite his many years with the Dept. of Antiquities had > authored but one article, it was a mystery to all of us, why he was > receiving posthumously such an award. The acceptance speech by his > elderly wife that he had known about the importance of the find and > it's implications but kept it quiet is hard to understand as the > ossuary inscriptions had not been deciphered nor published until > after his death. The cynical use of the Holocaust story as to why > Josef kept quiet, over something he was unable to decipher, should > be clear to all, the lengths which film makers will go in order to > be, in the words of Simcha 'vindicated', which he immediately > reported to the press. The first media release was, without delay, > sent off by an organization J9 which is the same organization which > sent out PR releases on two of his earlier documentaries. The > second (I'm vindicated) article was written by a long time personal > friend of Simcha's and it included some rather interesting quotes > from an anonymous source quoting the late Amir Drori, supporting > his 'vindication'. So we now have proof, from two deceased > archaeologists and an anonymous source, in the style of the film > maker Oliver Stone, that the whole thing was a conspiracy designed > to cover up something which would harm Vatican relations and promote > anti-Semitism. Josef Gat, would have not agreed nor accepted such a > cynical award. Now that the damage has been done they are claiming > on their blogs that they were misunderstood, ill advised etc. and > that the jury is still out on their claim, whereas the truth is just > the opposite, the overwhelming majority, if not nearly all scholars > present regarded this but as an attempt to achieve fame and fortune > at the expense of colleagues and the profession. > > Lastly, Cameron, Discovery, Simcha, Tabor and a few others have a > multi million dollar agenda riding on this, not including their > reputation. Remember the first story on this in 1996, (a few years > before Dan Brown), a front page article in the British press, sans, > the media hype, the books, agents, the advances from publishers; it > was dead a dead story within 48 hours until it was 'resurrected' by > the above. It's time we rebury it. > > Joe Zias > Science and Archaeology Group- Jerusalem Also: > > > Two statements, feel free to circulate. > Joe > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com > Anthropology/Paleopathology > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem > Jerusalem, Israel > > > > > > Mark Goodacre has a copy of it here: > > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html > > > > I think list folk may find it well worth reading. > > -- > ++++++++++++++++ > > Jim West, ThD > > http://drjimwest.wordpress.com > > http://drjewest.googlepages.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/d4331aad/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 01:43:05 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 01:43:05 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: <009a01c85cb8$f7186c90$6400a8c0@davesbook> References: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com> <1936353473-1200950083-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1744393306-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <8D39FEFD-8B7F-4D53-ACB5-DD69A3B8D7BD@earthlink.net> <1d04e0430801211518t4f6303c6t2c848fb74e69b6f@mail.gmail.com> <24D7167E-07E9-4930-894B-F46366FAA097@earthlink.net> <009a01c85cb8$f7186c90$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801212343q42582b77gd4d0a04f7c15b213@mail.gmail.com> Well, said, Dave! Kim On Jan 21, 2008 11:38 PM, Dave Cole wrote: > All, > > Today I planted lots of trees....as I will do tomorrow. (of course this is > my Job!). I get home and can't wait to get the ole shoes off an check the > mail......Well today I wish there had been none. We, as a group, have > decided to converse with each other and to share our thoughts, dreams, > ideas, in a forum that MUST respect these ideas, dreams, thoughts, EVEN what > we do for a livelihood, hopefully with a spirit of truth and respect. Are > we (the list) afraid of different schools of thought? I say NO....the fact > that this list even exists proves this. What concerns me is when a persons > motives are not clear and begins to ask questions or make > comments that appear to challenge the integrity of some. The result is anti > dialogue. Its a matter of trust. One must state "this is what I see, what > do you see" I write this letter trusting that I have somehow earned the > respect that others may know my motives. If I felt that every thing I said > was being used to damage my reputation as a fellow human, then guess > what.....I would not share what I know or in my case.....don't know. > Hopefully this request that I am making will open some dialogue of how we > can show respect and at the same time critique others ideals and thoughts. > > My request is that Denny will *fully* explain his motives. And that Dr. > Tabor will *not* withdraw from sharing with this list. Denny, most of > the people on this list FULLY understand (Google James Tabor)James Is > dealing with a situation that is very volatile and has taken a position that > is in it self a balance. Other wise I don't think many people would have > ever had *any* information. Most folks want this to go away, and that in > itself is most of the problem. This whole subject has been buried by > motives that are just now coming to light. James, understand that if Denny > really wanted to know you he would take the time to do that, and not just > throw out a 'balance' from a group that clearly just wants this > whole subject to just disappear. > > I am not trying to get every one to hold hands and sing.......but I am > attempting to allow for honest dialogue that will inspire folks to seek out > for them self what is and what aint. We all need friends. As a side note > I find it interesting that much of our discussions lately have been about > dead bones......isn't that strange? > > forgive me for butting in............... > dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* James Tabor > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Monday, January 21, 2008 5:53 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results > > Dear Denny, > I am talking about personal insult and slander as I said clearly below. My > report, circulated for information, was balanced and objective, it was not a > a post on my views of Talpiot, or perhaps you did not read it. It did not > attack individuals or accuse them falsely of lying, greed, or such things. > It has been reposted, for example, on Bock's Blog, and he is an evangelical > who disagrees with me on the Tomb, but we treat one another with respect. > The post on Mark Goodacre's site is also professional and respectful. In > fact, if you read the two you will see that what I wrote echoes some of > that. That said, I would rather not be instructed by you to stand on my > integrity. > > James > > > On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:18 PM, Denny Johnson wrote: > > James, > > I thought you made that decision the last time, but you are the one who > brought it up here again. > Seeing as you were making this a forum for your views on Talipot, I > thought it would be beneficial to all to get the perspective from others > involved. Also included was a blog from Mark Goodacre. Most here on this > list probably have no idea of all that is involved in this discussion. I am > quite impartial at this point. > > Stand on your integrity. > > Denny > > > On Jan 21, 2008 4:52 PM, James Tabor wrote: > > > My suggestion is that this topic, and particularly my personal > > involvement and record with the Talpiot tomb, which is on my Blog in > > great detail, not become the subject of dialogue on this list. It has > > nothing to do with our central purpose and I know Ross would agree but > > has been too occupied to respond. Mutual respect, trust, and good will > > are central to our exchanges. > > > > Thanks, > > > > James > > > > > > On Jan 21, 2008, at 4:11 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > > > > > So Denny, > > > > > > How came you by this? Why would one of "Tabors supporters" forward > > > a private email to one his known detractors? > > > > > > Just interested in your definition of balance! > > > > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Denny Johnson" < dennyj at gmail.com> > > > > > > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:33:12 > > > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results > > > > > > > > > Hello all. This is something we have been following closely and I > > > just received more information to keep things balanced regarding > > > this subject. This also may be forwarded with permission of the > > > author, Joe Zias. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Talpiot tomb- deliberate misrepresentation? > > > > > > When first approached by conference organizers to participate in the > > > Princeton University three day symposium, I along with several > > > colleagues refused. My refusal was due to the fact that I had first > > > hand experience with Simcha, Tabor and company over the film as well > > > as Tabors book and saw their deliberate manipulation of anthro/arch > > > data in order to pursue their agenda, namely TV ratings and book > > > sales. Professor Charlesworths request that I participate was due to > > > the fact that I was directly involved as curator with the Israel > > > Antiquities Authority (1972-1997) with the find. In fact, my > > > position required that I receive all ossuaries, catalogue, prepare > > > the anthropological report on the human skeletal remains and store > > > them in the Rockefeller Museum. Furthermore, I worked closely with > > > Professor Kloner the Jerusalem head archaeologist along with Dr. LY > > > Rahmani who authored the catalogue on 895 ossuaries in which the > > > Talpiot tomb ossuaries are published. Two colleagues (Kloner and > > > Spigelman) asked me to change my position on participating and I did > > > upon condition that my presentation would avoid the Talpiot tomb > > > controversy as I regarded it as finished shortly after it was shown > > > on TV in America. Thus my presentation dealt with the contribution > > > of anthropology to archaeology, particularly the cemetery at Qumran > > > and crucifixion. > > > > > > The day before the symposium opened I was sent by one of Tabors > > > supporters in the US a memo composed by Tabor in which he stated > > > "This is a dream come through (sic) for me and something Simcha and > > > I have worked for, behind the scenes, with Prof. James > > > Charlesworth". I immediately forwarded it to Professor Charlesworth, > > > believing that this was proof of what I had suspected all along, > > > outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the > > > agenda and skew the proceedings in a way which were favorable to > > > their pre-conceived plan. Charlesworth previously unaware of this > > > forwarded it to Tabor however by this time many things, which we > > > learned later, had been set in place. For example, on the third day > > > there was a panel discussing the Talpiot tomb in which one panelist > > > with no experience whatsoever with the topic or any peer reviewed > > > published research articles appeared as an expert. He, unknown to > > > all of us in the world of archaeology both here and abroad, was the > > > lone supporter of Simcha and Tabor. According to his short resume > > > which was handed out to participants, it would appear that he, like > > > Simcha is from the world of journalism as it mentions "over 1,000 > > > articles' in newspapers and magazines " and nothing to do with > > > Second Temple archaeology. By this time, my worst expectations were > > > coming true as several sound and camera men with whom I had worked > > > with previously suddenly appeared on the scene, now working for > > > Simcha. > > > > > > The Lifetime Achievement Award which was presented to Mrs. Josef Gat > > > on behalf of her late husband had to be one of the lowest depths > > > which archaeology has descended in over 30 years. I had known Josef > > > Gat and worked with him in the Dept. of Antiquities until his > > > retirement. He was a quite, honest, hard working man in which one > > > could depend upon. Most of the time, in which he was centered in > > > Jerusalem, his job was that of inspector which meant following the > > > bulldozers. As Jerusalem was in the midst of an unprecedented > > > building phase and we were always short handed, he on occasion was > > > asked to clear a tomb which had been accidentally discovered by > > > building contractors. Such is the case with the Talpiot tomb. As > > > Josef, despite his many years with the Dept. of Antiquities had > > > authored but one article, it was a mystery to all of us, why he was > > > receiving posthumously such an award. The acceptance speech by his > > > elderly wife that he had known about the importance of the find and > > > it's implications but kept it quiet is hard to understand as the > > > ossuary inscriptions had not been deciphered nor published until > > > after his death. The cynical use of the Holocaust story as to why > > > Josef kept quiet, over something he was unable to decipher, should > > > be clear to all, the lengths which film makers will go in order to > > > be, in the words of Simcha 'vindicated', which he immediately > > > reported to the press. The first media release was, without delay, > > > sent off by an organization J9 which is the same organization which > > > sent out PR releases on two of his earlier documentaries. The > > > second (I'm vindicated) article was written by a long time personal > > > friend of Simcha's and it included some rather interesting quotes > > > from an anonymous source quoting the late Amir Drori, supporting > > > his 'vindication'. So we now have proof, from two deceased > > > archaeologists and an anonymous source, in the style of the film > > > maker Oliver Stone, that the whole thing was a conspiracy designed > > > to cover up something which would harm Vatican relations and promote > > > anti-Semitism. Josef Gat, would have not agreed nor accepted such a > > > cynical award. Now that the damage has been done they are claiming > > > on their blogs that they were misunderstood, ill advised etc. and > > > that the jury is still out on their claim, whereas the truth is just > > > the opposite, the overwhelming majority, if not nearly all scholars > > > present regarded this but as an attempt to achieve fame and fortune > > > at the expense of colleagues and the profession. > > > > > > Lastly, Cameron, Discovery, Simcha, Tabor and a few others have a > > > multi million dollar agenda riding on this, not including their > > > reputation. Remember the first story on this in 1996, (a few years > > > before Dan Brown), a front page article in the British press, sans, > > > the media hype, the books, agents, the advances from publishers; it > > > was dead a dead story within 48 hours until it was 'resurrected' by > > > the above. It's time we rebury it. > > > > > > Joe Zias > > > Science and Archaeology Group- Jerusalem Also: > > > > > > > > > Two statements, feel free to circulate. > > > Joe > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology > > > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem > > > Jerusalem, Israel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Goodacre has a copy of it here: > > > > > > > > http://ntgateway.com/weblog/2008/01/talpiot-tomb-controversy-revisited.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think list folk may find it well worth reading. > > > > > > -- > > > ++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > Jim West, ThD > > > > > > http://drjimwest.wordpress.com > > > > > > http://drjewest.googlepages.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/7938827e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 22 05:54:22 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:54:22 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today, Tu B'Shevat Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim from the Lekarev Report: A good name is better than great riches, and loving favor to silver and gold. Proverbs 22:1 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/ad83e030/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 22 06:20:46 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:20:46 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Tu B'Shevat Sameach! Message-ID: A Happy Tu B'Shevat to all! Well, we all know that today is Tu B'Shevat (which simply means - 15th of Shevat, BTW..), which is the New Year for trees! And there are tons of sites across the internet which explain the importance of Tu B'Shevat, and how in Israel (in particular) it has such special significance, and people eat special fruits, etc. I'd like to just make a few points that you might not come across, though. As I heard it this past Shabbat in shul (Beit Kenneset, or synagogue), from Rabbi Yehuda Oppenheimer (more on other parts of his speech in another post) Tu B'Shevat represents the annual cycle of the renewal of life for trees. How in Israel, although it's still winter (not as cold as here, though..), the sap within the trees have begun to flow....the tree is beginning to prepare itself for its beautiful 'rebirth' in the spring...all through the design of HaShem.... For other special insights, I turn to my former Isralight colleague and teacher, Rabbi David Aaron, with some excerpts from his lovely book, Inviting G-d in - Celebrating The Soul - Meaning of the Jewish Holy Days. In discussing Adam and Eve and the attempts to have them bond with G-d, he states the following: "Depending on how we view the physical world, it is cursed or blessed. If we look at the physical world, as a conduit to a connection to G-d and if, as a service to G-d , we gratefully receive His gift of delicious fruits, we thereby experience His presence and the physical world becomes blessed. The physical world then becomes a bridge between the human and the divine. But if we become fixated on the physical, independent of any relationship with G-d, and mistakenly perceive this world as the source of our pleasure rather than as a bridge to G-d, then this world becomes a barrier to G-d and a curse for us." So, ultimately, it's not about the trees or their fruit - but how we view them in connection with our relationship with HaShem...which is really what everything is all about, right? Let's think about THAT today, as we pray to HaShem for our OWN renewal...and HIS divine guidance. Have a Tu B'Shevat filled with Brachot (blessings)!! B'Ahavat Yehdua v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/0f524c53/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 22 07:00:42 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:00:42 EST Subject: [Dialogue] check out Tu B'Shevat! Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, This is from Hillel, a Jewish college campus organization, but it has lots of useful info on Tu B'Shevat. Please check it out! _ Click here: Tu B'Shevat_ (http://www.hillel.org/jewish/holidays/tubshevat/default) Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/c3848fcf/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 07:14:07 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:14:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem...the city of Truth Message-ID: <27512.31134.qm@web37515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Be encouraged, it will come to pass in the last days.... "And it shall come to pass in the last days, the mountain of YHWH's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, to the house of the Elohim of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forththe Torah, and the Word of YHWH from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:2-3 "Thus saith YHWH; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of YHWH of hosts the holy holy mountain" Zechariah 8:3 Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/bbdffd96/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 07:57:25 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:57:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] My latest PR... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <94384.65859.qm@web37508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hanoch, I just recently got on this dialogue, and it has been encouraging and uplifting. I have been seeking the heart of the Father for more than 20 years, but only in the last 5 years have my eyes and ears been opened to hear the truth...that the way I was taught, and "christianity" as a whole walks in deception. The verse that popped into your head is indeed an inspiring [and scary] verse. Many times when that happens to me, it is because the Father has been trying to communicate to me through His Spirit, but my thick skull didn't let it penetrate through! Not saying that you have a thick skull !!!!! There is indeed a famine for the TaNaK in the land today. Never before in the history of mankind has there been such an exposure of the "the Word", and yet man is perishing on every side. The emptiness that most 'church going' people feel is because they 'hear' the Word preached [not the truth, of course], but don't live it. They are like the people of Isaiah's and Yahshua's time..."they have ears that hear not, and eyes that see not" Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:15. Even though there is more "Scripture" quoted from the pulpits today than ever before, there is a famine in the land. People are wandering aimlessly, with no direction, waiting for J-s-s to return so they don't have to go through any persecution or tribulation. We are truly living in a Laodicean [lukewarm] age, and YHWH said He will spit them out of His mouth. Revelation 3:14-16. YHWH is allowing you to see the world through His eyes, and taking you closer and closer to Him. "Now we see through a glass darkly, but when we see Him face to face, we shall see Him as He really is." Hopefully this will shed a little light on your 'dilemma', and be encouraged, my brother. Paul YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shalom to all, Well, indeed it happened again - one week ago exactly, having a Biblical verse # pop into my head. I have spent the entire week trying to figure out what it means for me (when you've been in Operations Management professionally, you always try to figure out 'what do I do next?'). I am beyond unnerved and discomforted by this, because until recently, this has never, ever happened to me. Also, since I am not familiar with the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) in a Chapter/Verse manner - until I get to a Tanach - I have no idea where I'm being led... I mentioned this happening to me to a few old pals on the list last week, trying to determine what it 'all' means. Honestly, I get goose bumps whenever I think of this whole experience....I am trying to just sort of, 'open up myself to the experience,' and hope that it adds up to pointing me in a particular direction, and/or with a plan of action. It's clear it has to do with the 'Ten Tribes' - but I have not gotten beyond that general direction yet. If anyone has some 'pop theories' they want to share with me - go for it! I am opening myself up to a whole new world of experiencing a spiritual connection with HaShem that I (obviously) did not have before. Okay, so this is what happened: I was walking toward the Subway, last Monday morning at approximately 9:05AM, with my mind cluttered with that night's Board Meeting that I had to attend, and feeling sorry for myself that I would likely not get home until midnight, at best. All of a sudden, I 'sense' - I certainly didn't 'hear' anything, Amos....and then the number 11, then 8, then 8:11.....now, my sense of these PR's (for me, in any case..) is that I get a verse to start with, and then I'm supposed to continue reading...at least for another Chapter, or so. Well, still had to get on the Subway - an experience that's the antithesis of anything spiritual! It took me almost 2 hours to get to work, and get up to my office and open a Tanach. First, I looked for Amos, the 11th Chapter. Everyone, open up your Tanach to Amos, Chapter 11.....ha! There isn't one.....But there IS a Chapter 8....and a verse 11....and it wasn't until I read it in Hebrew that I realized what it was..... "A time is coming - declares my L-rd G-d --- when I will send a famine upon the land: not a hunger for bread or a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of the L-rd." Amos 8:11 But then as I scanned downward on the page, I startled myself when I found THIS in the very next Chapter: "But I will not wholly wipe out the House of Jacob --- declares the L-rd. For I will give the order and shake the House of Israel ---- Through all the nations ----- As one shakes (sand) in a sieve, And not a pebble falls to the ground." Amos 9:8&9 Okay, so at this point, I'm looking around for Rod Serling to step in and explain that I'm in the "Twilight Zone," or something. But no Rod, no further explanation....and I've wrestled all week with this, hoping to come to a conclusion (of some sort) before bringing it to you folks. But I have had no further insight...at least not yet. Had to tell you guys.... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah --------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/8e55529e/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Jan 22 01:54:39 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:54:39 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] My latest PR... Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801221437.m0MEbGQ4025466@mail134c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080121/f901fe91/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Jan 22 08:59:54 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:59:54 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Tu B'shvat pointers /what we did Message-ID: <200801221500.m0MExp3h004770@mail2535.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/77585127/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Jan 22 09:26:39 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:26:39 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: <009a01c85cb8$f7186c90$6400a8c0@davesbook> References: <1d04e0430801211233q1ea8bf65tc0636e7421d4c2e4@mail.gmail.com><1936353473-1200950083-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1744393306-@bxe028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><8D39FEFD-8B7F-4D53-ACB5-DD69A3B8D7BD@earthlink.net><1d04e0430801211518t4f6303c6t2c848fb74e69b6f@mail.gmail.com><24D7167E-07E9-4930-894B-F46366FAA097@earthlink.net> <009a01c85cb8$f7186c90$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <005c01c85d0b$349061c0$0200a8c0@marvin> In the N.T. James the brother of Jesus said: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. v.22-24 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. v.19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: The last few days / weeks I've been doing some re-studying. The prophet Isaiah spoke of the need for Israel / Judah to repent and turn back to Hashem or the destruction and scattering was coming. By the time you read from Isaiah 1 to chapter 9 you see that the darkness is coming and a demarcation is showing between the faithful and the faithless in the community of greater Israel. The line is being drawn between those who respond with obedient faith and those who do not. When we jump to the second temple period with Jesus and his disciples, it's almost as if Jesus becomes Isaiah and his disciples replace Isaiah's disciples. Regardless of how we read the N.T. there is no doubt in my mind that the characters of the N.T. believed they were living in the very "last days". John the Baptizer and then Jesus begin preaching the kingdom of God was at hand. Syria fell to the Assyrians in 732? b.c.e then Israel in 722? b.c.e. and then Judah in 701? b.c.e. Some 700 years later we come to the N.T. The land of Israel was being ground to dust under the BOOT heel of the Rome empire. These people were feeling it, living it with every fiber of their being. They believed Hashem was at the door, the Kingdom was about to be set up. From my own re-studying of Isaiah from notes that I had made back in the middle 90's that I had been involved in for the last several days. I had some new thoughts. I was also looking at Genesis 49, where Jacob was giving out his last words to his sons and telling them what would befall them in the last days. As you are aware we believe we are living in the "last days".. Everyone who is alive on the earth today is living and experiencing something that has not existed for Bible believers of every color, creed or nationality, regardless if they are Jew, Gentile or Alien from outer space. That something.. The existence of the Nation of Israel as they existed during Bible times and some of the members of that Nation being in the land. At this point it does not matter who is in control of the land or government, Israel is back in the land.. Just like in the N.T days. If the people of Israel today want to know what to do.. Study the Prophet of Isaiah. This astounding fact had not happened for over 1800 years until just the last 60 years. The life time, of us here in dialogue reading this. Just think.. Your great grand fathers lived and died and never saw the Biblical nation of Israel back in the land. To them it was just another nation that existed once upon a time. Yes, they may have had faith Israel would return. Our great grand parents and relatives lived and die, without seeing it.. We are witnessing it first hand. Since 70 c.e. when the temple was destroyed, until the early 1900's when Jews / Israelites of the world begin to come back to the land in 1948, when the nation of Israel officially became a nation again recognize to one degree or another by the other nations of the world we have a sum of over 1800 years. The point I'm making, According to Jewish reckoning, from the creation of the world till Abraham's birth is 1948 years. From Abraham till the establishment of the state of Israel(1948) 3760 years. According to the reckoning of the common era(Gentiles) we have 3760 years from the creation of the world till the beginning of the common area - the year Zero (which does not exist, but you get the ideal, 01/01/0) the time of the N.T. Form the beginning of the common era till the establishment of the state of Israel we have 1948 years. Therefore, from Abraham till Jesus and the destruction of the temple in 70 C.E. we have a approx. sum of 1882 years. >From Jesus and the destruction of the temple until Today(01/2008) we have an approx. sum of 1938. the differenced between the above mention time periods is approx. 56 years give or take a little. Abraham and his descendants(Israel) as a people and a nation existed some 1882 years before Hashem scattered them to the wind. The message of Jesus and his followers, regardless of how it is understood has now gone on for 1960 years. If you play with the difference of 56 years you have to realize that the people of the second temple time period believed they were living in the "last days". Jump 1900 years into the future and today, we believe, we are living in the "last days". As we read and study the bible you see things happening in a slow drawn out way, in regards to time. The Exodus from Egypt, it did not happen in a day and the entrance into the land of Canaan took almost 40 years. Hos 6:2 - After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up,.... Something happened 2,000 years ago. But do you honestly think Jesus and his followers including Paul thought it would be another 2000 plus years and still NO kingdom of God? Is it a possibility that these faithful God fearing Israelites missed the mind of God? What will our children think if 2000 plus years in the future they are doing the same thing we are today? The opinions, discussions, view points and positions this subject has brought to the forefront are only just the tip of the iceberg in my humble opinion. I was involved(a fly on the wall) in discussions around these subjects going back 10- 20 years. I do not believe this topic was just hatched because it is the latest money maker coming down the pike. In the last 10 days I spent the time re-reading almost everything Dr. Tabor has put out on the net. Outside of this dialogue I have not spoken to Dr. Tabor in 8 years or so. There is no way a person can grasp the depth of all of this with a simple Readers Digest view. I after 25 years still struggle. The untold hours upon hours upon hours.(need I go on) of reading and study. I personally have witness Dr. Tabor adjust his hats, between a scholarly opinion and the opinion of a God fearing human searching for truth. We all in our own integrity have to do the same to arrive at the truth of a subject. God is doing something. This I believe to the core of my soul. The words in ( ) are mine. Read passage out loud and place emphasis on the (I will's). Eze 37:11 these bones are the whole house of Israel: Eze 37:12 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and (I will)cause you to come up out of your graves, and (I will) bring you into the land of Israel. Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I (will) have opened your graves, O my people, and (I will) brought you up out of your graves, Eze 37:14 And(I will) shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I(will) shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by these? Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and (I) will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and (I will) make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and (I) will gather them on every side, and (I will) bring them into their own land: Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and (I) will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I (will) have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children forever: and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and (I will) multiply them, and (I) will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore. Israel will be and the "heathen shall know". Shalom, marvin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/1864e80c/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Tue Jan 22 09:56:04 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:56:04 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Re:Permission to forward???... References: <94384.65859.qm@web37508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002301c85d0f$4e226a30$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Paul & Hanock, May I have permission to forward this e-mail on to a friend who needs to hear what you just wrote? Thanks, Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul-Eugene Miller To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My latest PR... Hanoch, I just recently got on this dialogue, and it has been encouraging and uplifting. I have been seeking the heart of the Father for more than 20 years, but only in the last 5 years have my eyes and ears been opened to hear the truth...that the way I was taught, and "christianity" as a whole walks in deception. The verse that popped into your head is indeed an inspiring [and scary] verse. Many times when that happens to me, it is because the Father has been trying to communicate to me through His Spirit, but my thick skull didn't let it penetrate through! Not saying that you have a thick skull !!!!! There is indeed a famine for the TaNaK in the land today. Never before in the history of mankind has there been such an exposure of the "the Word", and yet man is perishing on every side. The emptiness that most 'church going' people feel is because they 'hear' the Word preached [not the truth, of course], but don't live it. They are like the people of Isaiah's and Yahshua's time..."they have ears that hear not, and eyes that see not" Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:15. Even though there is more "Scripture" quoted from the pulpits today than ever before, there is a famine in the land. People are wandering aimlessly, with no direction, waiting for J-s-s to return so they don't have to go through any persecution or tribulation. We are truly living in a Laodicean [lukewarm] age, and YHWH said He will spit them out of His mouth. Revelation 3:14-16. YHWH is allowing you to see the world through His eyes, and taking you closer and closer to Him. "Now we see through a glass darkly, but when we see Him face to face, we shall see Him as He really is." Hopefully this will shed a little light on your 'dilemma', and be encouraged, my brother. Paul YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shalom to all, Well, indeed it happened again - one week ago exactly, having a Biblical verse # pop into my head. I have spent the entire week trying to figure out what it means for me (when you've been in Operations Management professionally, you always try to figure out 'what do I do next?'). I am beyond unnerved and discomforted by this, because until recently, this has never, ever happened to me. Also, since I am not familiar with the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) in a Chapter/Verse manner - until I get to a Tanach - I have no idea where I'm being led... I mentioned this happening to me to a few old pals on the list last week, trying to determine what it 'all' means. Honestly, I get goose bumps whenever I think of this whole experience....I am trying to just sort of, 'open up myself to the experience,' and hope that it adds up to pointing me in a particular direction, and/or with a plan of action. It's clear it has to do with the 'Ten Tribes' - but I have not gotten beyond that general direction yet. If anyone has some 'pop theories' they want to share with me - go for it! I am opening myself up to a whole new world of experiencing a spiritual connection with HaShem that I (obviously) did not have before. Okay, so this is what happened: I was walking toward the Subway, last Monday morning at approximately 9:05AM, with my mind cluttered with that night's Board Meeting that I had to attend, and feeling sorry for myself that I would likely not get home until midnight, at best. All of a sudden, I 'sense' - I certainly didn't 'hear' anything, Amos....and then the number 11, then 8, then 8:11.....now, my sense of these PR's (for me, in any case..) is that I get a verse to start with, and then I'm supposed to continue reading...at least for another Chapter, or so. Well, still had to get on the Subway - an experience that's the antithesis of anything spiritual! It took me almost 2 hours to get to work, and get up to my office and open a Tanach. First, I looked for Amos, the 11th Chapter. Everyone, open up your Tanach to Amos, Chapter 11.....ha! There isn't one.....But there IS a Chapter 8....and a verse 11....and it wasn't until I read it in Hebrew that I realized what it was..... "A time is coming - declares my L-rd G-d --- when I will send a famine upon the land: not a hunger for bread or a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of the L-rd." Amos 8:11 But then as I scanned downward on the page, I startled myself when I found THIS in the very next Chapter: "But I will not wholly wipe out the House of Jacob --- declares the L-rd. For I will give the order and shake the House of Israel ---- Through all the nations ----- As one shakes (sand) in a sieve, And not a pebble falls to the ground." Amos 9:8&9 Okay, so at this point, I'm looking around for Rod Serling to step in and explain that I'm in the "Twilight Zone," or something. But no Rod, no further explanation....and I've wrestled all week with this, hoping to come to a conclusion (of some sort) before bringing it to you folks. But I have had no further insight...at least not yet. Had to tell you guys.... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/c564673e/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jan 22 10:03:15 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:03:15 EST Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Jerusalem...the city of Truth Message-ID: Well now, the two texts from the prophets, Isaiah 2:2-3 and Zechariah 8:3 catch my interest. As a student of the prophetic word of YHVH Elohim for nearly 50 years now, Paul-Eugene Miller opens with -Be encouraged, it will come to pass in the last days. The time of the end - the last days have been thought several times in history to be at hand. All have been wrong thus far. But nevertheless there is to be one generation that will experience the end of the ages as we know it. Are we that generation, and how would we know if we are? In the scroll of the prophet Daniel from the deportations of the Jews to Babylon, to the overthrow by the Persians, to the conquest of the Greeks, to the fourth and last empire Rome, and then to the resurrection of the dead, the great sweep of history reveals no extended period of time. In other words, from beginning to the end in Daniel's scroll is one whole scenario without extended time breaks. It is no wonder why the DSS community and the Nazarene movement thought they were the generation upon whom the end of the ages had come. They were not and several times throughout history the end of the ages have been predicted to be at hand. And so again I ask, if we are the generation upon whom the end of the ages has come, how could we know that to be the case? My research co-partner Gary Arvidson and I have done extensive work on the scroll of Daniel as well as other predictions in the word of God. We have suggested that through historical documentation the 70 weeks, i.e. 70 heptads - 490 years ended after a seven year war declared by Rome upon the Jews. History demonstrates that after three and one half years of the seven year war the second temple lay in smoldering ruins and the city of Jerusalem was burnt and destroyed. An additional three and one half years the war ended with the remaining strongholds taken by the Roman legions. It seemed our research brought much of what was predicted by the prophets as though a curtain came down like a two act presentation with fulfilled prophecy put on hold, awaiting for the curtain to rise for the second act which would occur in the last days. If we have gotten the historical picture correct then we have certain events, perhaps even current events that will prove one way or the other if indeed we are the generation upon whom the end of the ages has come, and the future age of the kingdom of God replacing the kingdoms of this world is near. One thing we can be sure about is the end of the ages cannot come without Judah being a nation and possessing Zion. To this group you know that is the case. That there has been a delay of the kingdom of God, and that kingdom restored to the children of Israel, is what the UIWU is all about. God is a God of patterns, he gets it right the first time and does not need to experiment to discover the best way to work his plan and purpose. By a mighty hand YHVH lead the children of Israel out of their bondage in Egypt. A careful reading of Isaiah 11, we find YHVH stating that he will set his hand the second time, the first being when he lead the whole house of Israel out of Egypt. When they crossed over the river of Jordan it was inquired of YHVH who should go up first to take Zion? Judah should go up to Zion first. So if the curtain is raised for act two, we should observe Zion in the hands of Judah. And sure enough in 1967 Judah took Zion. Can we observe the pattern of YHVH at work here? If so a remnant of the scattered lost sheep of the house of Israel must be brought up to Zion. And who do the prophets say will do this? They do not say Judah or even certain ones of the lost sheep of the house of Israel will bring this to pass. No it is YHVH himself who will cause his word to prevail. Bush, Olmart and ten thousand like them, are no more than grasshoppers before YHVH. If the pattern of YHVH holds then we are at the threshold where YHVH will bring this whole roadmap down one of two ways as recorded in the prophets. Now we will want to be very cautious here on what Isaiah 11, records, when he writes that Ephraim will join with Judah and fly down upon their enemies on the east and on the west. Ephraim at its core I take to be the greatest and most powerful nation that has ever been since there have been nations. Might the plan of YHVH be to let Israel be pinned in from the east and from the west and as a result of pushing Israel into a position that will force Ephraim to come to their aid, since it was Ephraim that got them into this predicament? At this point of time, we cannot say one way or the other of how YHVH will solve this situation, but Isaiah 11, is a possibility. However there is another possibility we might consider. There is a location that was turned over to the gentiles that is to remain in their hands, until the stone cut out of the mountain crushes the nations that seek to destroy the Jews off of the face of the earth. I'm speaking of the Antonia mount I think mistakenly thought to be the first and second temple mount. More could be said, but I hope others who have done the hard study such as James and Betty who were the only ones to comment on my post of the little scroll in Rev 10. If we have an idea of what has already come to pass then we need not be unaware of what remains in events to precede the great event of the kingdom of God established on this earth. Its in the prophets we just need to prayerfully study it out, and as watchmen on the wall watching the events unfold in the middle east may see with our own eyes YHVH returning to Zion. My thanks to Paul for opening this thread that we might further discuss. Take care all Clyde **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/0a9482fd/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 22 10:26:36 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Re:Permission to forward???... In-Reply-To: <002301c85d0f$4e226a30$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> References: <94384.65859.qm@web37508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002301c85d0f$4e226a30$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <8CA2B2AB1BBBFB0-1D70-3452@WEBMAIL-DG13.sysops.aol.com> Hey Loy! ??? You certainly do have my permission to forward my post; it's my pleasure (even if I still think I'm bizarre for having a 'PR').? I really appreciate Paul's post, and am going to write him about it, shortly - as soon as I get a few minutes.? Hope you're doing well, take care my dear friend! ????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah -----Original Message----- From: Loy To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:56 am Subject: [Dialogue] Re:Permission to forward???... Paul & Hanock,? May I have permission to forward this e-mail on to a friend who needs to hear what you just wrote??? Thanks,?? Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul-Eugene Miller To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My latest PR... Hanoch, ? I just recently got on this dialogue, and it has been encouraging and uplifting. I have been seeking the heart of the Father for more than 20 years, but only in the last 5 years have my eyes and ears been opened to hear the truth...that the way I was taught, and "christianity" as?a whole walks in deception. The verse that popped into your head is indeed an inspiring [and scary] verse. Many times when that happens to me, it is because the Father has been trying to communicate to me through His Spirit, but my thick skull didn't let it penetrate through!? Not saying that you have a thick skull !!!!! There is indeed a famine for the TaNaK in the land today. Never before in the history of mankind has there been such an exposure of the "the Word", and yet man is perishing on every side. The emptiness that most 'church going' people feel is because they 'hear' the Word preached [not the truth, of course], but don't live it. They are like the people of Isaiah's and Yahshua's time..."they have ears that hear not, and eyes that see not" Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:15. Even though there is more "Scripture" quoted from the pulpits today than ever before, there is a famine in the land. People are wandering aimlessly, with no direction, waiting for J-s-s to return so they don't have to go through any persecution or tribulation. We are truly living in a Laodicean [lukewarm] age, and YHWH said He will spit them out of His mouth. Revelation 3:14-16. YHWH is allowing you to see the world through His eyes, and taking you closer and closer to Him. "Now we see through a glass darkly, but when we see Him face to face, we shall see Him as He really is." Hopefully this will shed a little light on your 'dilemma', and be encouraged, my brother. Paul?? YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shalom to all, ? ??? Well, indeed it happened again - one week ago exactly, having a Biblical verse # pop into my head.? I have spent the entire week trying to figure out what it means for me? (when you've been in Operations Management professionally, you always try to figure out 'what do I do next?').? I am beyond unnerved and discomforted by this, because until recently, this has never, ever happened to me.? Also, since I am not familiar with the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) in a Chapter/Verse manner - until I get to a Tanach - I have no idea where I'm being led... ? ??? I mentioned this happening to me to a few old pals on the list last week, trying to determine what it 'all' means.? Honestly, I get goose bumps whenever I think of this whole experience....I am trying to just sort of, 'open up myself to the experience,' and hope that it adds up to pointing me in a particular direction, and/or with a plan of action.? It's clear it has to do with the 'Ten Tribes' - but I have not gotten beyond that general direction yet. ? ??? If anyone has some 'pop theories' they want to share with me - go for it!? I am opening myself up to a whole new world of experiencing a spiritual connection with HaShem that I (obviously) did not have before.? Okay, so this is what happened: ? ??? I was walking toward the Subway, last Monday morning at approximately 9:05AM, with my mind cluttered with that night's Board Meeting that I had to attend, and feeling sorry for myself that I would likely not get home until midnight, at best.? All of a sudden, I 'sense' - I certainly didn't 'hear' anything, Amos....and then the number 11, then 8, then 8:11.....now, my sense of these PR's (for me, in any case..) is that I get a verse to start with, and then I'm supposed to continue reading...at least for another Chapter, or so. ? ??? Well, still had to get on the Subway - an experience that's the antithesis of anything spiritual!? It took me almost 2 hours to get to work, and get up to my office and open a Tanach.? First, I looked for Amos, the 11th Chapter.? Everyone, open up your Tanach to Amos, Chapter 11.....ha!? There isn't one.....But there IS a Chapter 8....and a verse 11....and it wasn't until I read it in Hebrew that I realized what it was..... ? "A time is coming - declares my L-rd G-d --- when I will send a famine upon the land: not a hunger for bread or a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of the L-rd."?????????????????????????????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? Amos 8:11 ??? But then as I scanned downward on the page, I startled myself when I found THIS in the very next Chapter: ? "But I will not wholly wipe out the House of Jacob --- declares the L-rd.? For I will give the order and shake the House of Israel ---- Through all the nations ----- As one shakes (sand) in a sieve, And not a pebble falls to the ground." ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Amos 9:8&9 ? ??? Okay, so at this point, I'm looking around for Rod Serling to step in and explain that I'm in the "Twilight Zone," or something.? But no Rod, no further explanation....and I've wrestled all week with this, hoping to come to a conclusion (of some sort) before bringing it to you folks.? But I have had no further insight...at least not yet. ? ??? Had to tell you guys.... ? ??? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, ??? ??? Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judahthe Lil Lion of Judah Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/da6151bd/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Tue Jan 22 11:39:47 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:39:47 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem...the city of Truth References: Message-ID: <008301c85d1d$c912daf0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Clyde, May I forward your post? Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Jerusalem...the city of Truth Well now, the two texts from the prophets, Isaiah 2:2-3 and Zechariah 8:3 catch my interest. As a student of the prophetic word of YHVH Elohim for nearly 50 years now, Paul-Eugene Miller opens with -Be encouraged, it will come to pass in the last days. The time of the end - the last days have been thought several times in history to be at hand. All have been wrong thus far. But nevertheless there is to be one generation that will experience the end of the ages as we know it. Are we that generation, and how would we know if we are? In the scroll of the prophet Daniel from the deportations of the Jews to Babylon, to the overthrow by the Persians, to the conquest of the Greeks, to the fourth and last empire Rome, and then to the resurrection of the dead, the great sweep of history reveals no extended period of time. In other words, from beginning to the end in Daniel's scroll is one whole scenario without extended time breaks. It is no wonder why the DSS community and the Nazarene movement thought they were the generation upon whom the end of the ages had come. They were not and several times throughout history the end of the ages have been predicted to be at hand. And so again I ask, if we are the generation upon whom the end of the ages has come, how could we know that to be the case? My research co-partner Gary Arvidson and I have done extensive work on the scroll of Daniel as well as other predictions in the word of God. We have suggested that through historical documentation the 70 weeks, i.e. 70 heptads - 490 years ended after a seven year war declared by Rome upon the Jews. History demonstrates that after three and one half years of the seven year war the second temple lay in smoldering ruins and the city of Jerusalem was burnt and destroyed. An additional three and one half years the war ended with the remaining strongholds taken by the Roman legions. It seemed our research brought much of what was predicted by the prophets as though a curtain came down like a two act presentation with fulfilled prophecy put on hold, awaiting for the curtain to rise for the second act which would occur in the last days. If we have gotten the historical picture correct then we have certain events, perhaps even current events that will prove one way or the other if indeed we are the generation upon whom the end of the ages has come, and the future age of the kingdom of God replacing the kingdoms of this world is near. One thing we can be sure about is the end of the ages cannot come without Judah being a nation and possessing Zion. To this group you know that is the case. That there has been a delay of the kingdom of God, and that kingdom restored to the children of Israel, is what the UIWU is all about. God is a God of patterns, he gets it right the first time and does not need to experiment to discover the best way to work his plan and purpose. By a mighty hand YHVH lead the children of Israel out of their bondage in Egypt. A careful reading of Isaiah 11, we find YHVH stating that he will set his hand the second time, the first being when he lead the whole house of Israel out of Egypt. When they crossed over the river of Jordan it was inquired of YHVH who should go up first to take Zion? Judah should go up to Zion first. So if the curtain is raised for act two, we should observe Zion in the hands of Judah. And sure enough in 1967 Judah took Zion. Can we observe the pattern of YHVH at work here? If so a remnant of the scattered lost sheep of the house of Israel must be brought up to Zion. And who do the prophets say will do this? They do not say Judah or even certain ones of the lost sheep of the house of Israel will bring this to pass. No it is YHVH himself who will cause his word to prevail. Bush, Olmart and ten thousand like them, are no more than grasshoppers before YHVH. If the pattern of YHVH holds then we are at the threshold where YHVH will bring this whole roadmap down one of two ways as recorded in the prophets. Now we will want to be very cautious here on what Isaiah 11, records, when he writes that Ephraim will join with Judah and fly down upon their enemies on the east and on the west. Ephraim at its core I take to be the greatest and most powerful nation that has ever been since there have been nations. Might the plan of YHVH be to let Israel be pinned in from the east and from the west and as a result of pushing Israel into a position that will force Ephraim to come to their aid, since it was Ephraim that got them into this predicament? At this point of time, we cannot say one way or the other of how YHVH will solve this situation, but Isaiah 11, is a possibility. However there is another possibility we might consider. There is a location that was turned over to the gentiles that is to remain in their hands, until the stone cut out of the mountain crushes the nations that seek to destroy the Jews off of the face of the earth. I'm speaking of the Antonia mount I think mistakenly thought to be the first and second temple mount. More could be said, but I hope others who have done the hard study such as James and Betty who were the only ones to comment on my post of the little scroll in Rev 10. If we have an idea of what has already come to pass then we need not be unaware of what remains in events to precede the great event of the kingdom of God established on this earth. Its in the prophets we just need to prayerfully study it out, and as watchmen on the wall watching the events unfold in the middle east may see with our own eyes YHVH returning to Zion. My thanks to Paul for opening this thread that we might further discuss. Take care all Clyde ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/e6197f60/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jan 22 12:34:58 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:34:58 EST Subject: : Re: [Dialogue] Jerusalem...the city of Truth Message-ID: Thank you Leorah, by all means forward to whomsoever you like. Clyde **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/b9fa250c/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 22 13:10:04 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:10:04 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today, Tu B'Shevat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <012f01c85d2a$65814780$643c66c9@bettygivin> Indeed!!! Thanks Hanoch! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 5:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today, Tu B'Shevat Shalom Chaverim Yikarim from the Lekarev Report: A good name is better than great riches, and loving favor to silver and gold. Proverbs 22:1 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/d0a5bcc2/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 22 13:23:17 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:23:17 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] My latest PR... Comments In-Reply-To: <200801221437.m0MEbGQ4025466@mail134c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <013a01c85d2c$3e192a80$643c66c9@bettygivin> Very well said, Steve.what you wrote is what I was 'trying' to say in my email last night. When I write, often it comes out as a "stream of consciousness" and comes out a bit jumbled. Thank-you, as always, for your clarity of thought and expression. We appreciate you! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 1:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My latest PR... Comments Hanoch, Sometimes PRs, like dreams, are not necessarily just for for the person who receives it, but for those he deals with, or sometimes for "the times." the "generation" he lives in. They are indicators of the zeitgeist, (spirit of the times), the general spirit that characterizes and permeates, and we can even say, "dominates" that time and generation. Amos 8:11 seems to be one of these important "indicators of the spirit of the times." There will be, and it is already here, a famine of the Word... among the Tribes of Israel around the world. Sure, there may be some exceptions, but on the whole this is true. Our attention is drawn to this condition, for this is the context in which we have to do our work. In fact, it hints at the work we have to do, to "cry the voice in the wilderness" to feed those whom the LORD shall call. It is important to note that there will be a famine of the "hearing" of the Word Amos 9:8-9 this is one of the quintessential references that talks re the fact that the Ten Tribes were to be sifted through the nations, and that Hashem keeps track of all of them... and He never loses sight of them, never "cancels" them from His Covenant, but makes them live up to its provisions, (Jer. 29:11), punishments, exile, spiritual death sentence and resurrection and regathering and ensoulment...... it is a timely reminder for us to use now... for this is the process happening to us, and gives us hints as to what is to come... These PRs are setting the general atmosphere of what is going on in our times... it is the context in which all other and subsequent PRs will be given and will relate to... It behooves us to look at these PRs in context: "Behold the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon a sinful kingdom and I will destroy it from the face of the earth, saying that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD." Amos 9:8 seems to talk about the destruction then, and just might talk about destruction to come, of which the first one was a type.... if so.. we are in big trouble.... Jacob's trouble.... Jer. 30:8... if so, then this PR is a warning to all of us, and telling us what is coming down the tube..... in which we have to work..... and for which we have to prepare now.... the first of which is to secure the Spiritual Provision, the connection to the guidance of the Ruach... then whatever other preparations we need to make in our lives... Ps. The fact that you did not know these verses and had to look them up after being given them, underscores the genuiness of the PR, and that it did not originate in your psyche... Steve At 04:13 PM 1/21/2008, you wrote: Shalom to all, Well, indeed it happened again - one week ago exactly, having a Biblical verse # pop into my head. I have spent the entire week trying to figure out what it means for me (when you've been in Operations Management professionally, you always try to figure out 'what do I do next?'). I am beyond unnerved and discomforted by this, because until recently, this has never, ever happened to me. Also, since I am not familiar with the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) in a Chapter/Verse manner - until I get to a Tanach - I have no idea where I'm being led... I mentioned this happening to me to a few old pals on the list last week, trying to determine what it 'all' means. Honestly, I get goose bumps whenever I think of this whole experience....I am trying to just sort of, 'open up myself to the experience,' and hope that it adds up to pointing me in a particular direction, and/or with a plan of action. It's clear it has to do with the 'Ten Tribes' - but I have not gotten beyond that general direction yet. If anyone has some 'pop theories' they want to share with me - go for it! I am opening myself up to a whole new world of experiencing a spiritual connection with HaShem that I (obviously) did not have before. Okay, so this is what happened: I was walking toward the Subway, last Monday morning at approximately 9:05AM, with my mind cluttered with that night's Board Meeting that I had to attend, and feeling sorry for myself that I would likely not get home until midnight, at best. All of a sudden, I 'sense' - I certainly didn't 'hear' anything, Amos....and then the number 11, then 8, then 8:11.....now, my sense of these PR's (for me, in any case..) is that I get a verse to start with, and then I'm supposed to continue reading...at least for another Chapter, or so. Well, still had to get on the Subway - an experience that's the antithesis of anything spiritual! It took me almost 2 hours to get to work, and get up to my office and open a Tanach. First, I looked for Amos, the 11th Chapter. Everyone, open up your Tanach to Amos, Chapter 11.....ha! There isn't one.....But there IS a Chapter 8....and a verse 11....and it wasn't until I read it in Hebrew that I realized what it was..... "A time is coming - declares my L-rd G-d --- when I will send a famine upon the land: not a hunger for bread or a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of the L-rd." Amos 8:11 But then as I scanned downward on the page, I startled myself when I found THIS in the very next Chapter: "But I will not wholly wipe out the House of Jacob --- declares the L-rd. For I will give the order and shake the House of Israel ---- Through all the nations ----- As one shakes (sand) in a sieve, And not a pebble falls to the ground." Amos 9:8&9 Okay, so at this point, I'm looking around for Rod Serling to step in and explain that I'm in the "Twilight Zone," or something. But no Rod, no further explanation....and I've wrestled all week with this, hoping to come to a conclusion (of some sort) before bringing it to you folks. But I have had no further insight...at least not yet. Had to tell you guys.... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/f9e6b8e4/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 22 13:39:21 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:39:21 -0600 Subject: Paul [Dialogue] My latest PR... In-Reply-To: <94384.65859.qm@web37508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015001c85d2e$7eb6d810$643c66c9@bettygivin> Beautifully written, Paul, and with much heartfelt kavanah (intent)! Thank-you so much, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Paul-Eugene Miller Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:57 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My latest PR... Hanoch, I just recently got on this dialogue, and it has been encouraging and uplifting. I have been seeking the heart of the Father for more than 20 years, but only in the last 5 years have my eyes and ears been opened to hear the truth...that the way I was taught, and "christianity" as a whole walks in deception. The verse that popped into your head is indeed an inspiring [and scary] verse. Many times when that happens to me, it is because the Father has been trying to communicate to me through His Spirit, but my thick skull didn't let it penetrate through! Not saying that you have a thick skull !!!!! There is indeed a famine for the TaNaK in the land today. Never before in the history of mankind has there been such an exposure of the "the Word", and yet man is perishing on every side. The emptiness that most 'church going' people feel is because they 'hear' the Word preached [not the truth, of course], but don't live it. They are like the people of Isaiah's and Yahshua's time..."they have ears that hear not, and eyes that see not" Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:15. Even though there is more "Scripture" quoted from the pulpits today than ever before, there is a famine in the land. People are wandering aimlessly, with no direction, waiting for J-s-s to return so they don't have to go through any persecution or tribulation. We are truly living in a Laodicean [lukewarm] age, and YHWH said He will spit them out of His mouth. Revelation 3:14-16. YHWH is allowing you to see the world through His eyes, and taking you closer and closer to Him. "Now we see through a glass darkly, but when we see Him face to face, we shall see Him as He really is." Hopefully this will shed a little light on your 'dilemma', and be encouraged, my brother. Paul YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shalom to all, Well, indeed it happened again - one week ago exactly, having a Biblical verse # pop into my head. I have spent the entire week trying to figure out what it means for me (when you've been in Operations Management professionally, you always try to figure out 'what do I do next?'). I am beyond unnerved and discomforted by this, because until recently, this has never, ever happened to me. Also, since I am not familiar with the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) in a Chapter/Verse manner - until I get to a Tanach - I have no idea where I'm being led... I mentioned this happening to me to a few old pals on the list last week, trying to determine what it 'all' means. Honestly, I get goose bumps whenever I think of this whole experience....I am trying to just sort of, 'open up myself to the experience,' and hope that it adds up to pointing me in a particular direction, and/or with a plan of action. It's clear it has to do with the 'Ten Tribes' - but I have not gotten beyond that general direction yet. If anyone has some 'pop theories' they want to share with me - go for it! I am opening myself up to a whole new world of experiencing a spiritual connection with HaShem that I (obviously) did not have before. Okay, so this is what happened: I was walking toward the Subway, last Monday morning at approximately 9:05AM, with my mind cluttered with that night's Board Meeting that I had to attend, and feeling sorry for myself that I would likely not get home until midnight, at best. All of a sudden, I 'sense' - I certainly didn't 'hear' anything, Amos....and then the number 11, then 8, then 8:11.....now, my sense of these PR's (for me, in any case..) is that I get a verse to start with, and then I'm supposed to continue reading...at least for another Chapter, or so. Well, still had to get on the Subway - an experience that's the antithesis of anything spiritual! It took me almost 2 hours to get to work, and get up to my office and open a Tanach. First, I looked for Amos, the 11th Chapter. Everyone, open up your Tanach to Amos, Chapter 11.....ha! There isn't one.....But there IS a Chapter 8....and a verse 11....and it wasn't until I read it in Hebrew that I realized what it was..... "A time is coming - declares my L-rd G-d --- when I will send a famine upon the land: not a hunger for bread or a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of the L-rd." Amos 8:11 But then as I scanned downward on the page, I startled myself when I found THIS in the very next Chapter: "But I will not wholly wipe out the House of Jacob --- declares the L-rd. For I will give the order and shake the House of Israel ---- Through all the nations ----- As one shakes (sand) in a sieve, And not a pebble falls to the ground." Amos 9:8&9 Okay, so at this point, I'm looking around for Rod Serling to step in and explain that I'm in the "Twilight Zone," or something. But no Rod, no further explanation....and I've wrestled all week with this, hoping to come to a conclusion (of some sort) before bringing it to you folks. But I have had no further insight...at least not yet. Had to tell you guys.... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon _____ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/26088aea/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 22 14:21:34 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:21:34 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: MARVIN/ Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: <005c01c85d0b$349061c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <016c01c85d34$62359360$643c66c9@bettygivin> Marvin, Thank-you for your well thought-out post. It is apparent that it represents years of searching and study and walking with G-d, and walking with integrity. Yes, all who walk in integrity go thru periods of change in our positions on various issues; and if we are honest, we all have still have our own struggles...none of us 'has arrived.' We have come to the place in which we are because of our various studies, circumstances, our associations with various people and groups, and our individual relationships to G-d. One day, we will all be of One mind and One Heart.that day has not yet come, but as children of G-d, I believe that we are obligated to strive to become better, to learn from one another, to listen to one another and to respect one another's viewpoints along the way. It is after all the Creator of us all, the Creator of the Universe, the Adon Olam, that has all of us in His hands will make everything come to pass. All of the I will's in the Ezekiel 37 passage are indeed quite strong and give us much on which to meditate! I agree, HaShem is definitely doing something.we are blessed to be a minute part of it.let us be thankful, continue to do and be what we are called to do and be.and in His time, His whole plan will come to fruition. Shalom, Shalom! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:27 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In the N.T. James the brother of Jesus said: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. v.22-24 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. v.19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: The last few days / weeks I've been doing some re-studying. The prophet Isaiah spoke of the need for Israel / Judah to repent and turn back to Hashem or the destruction and scattering was coming. By the time you read from Isaiah 1 to chapter 9 you see that the darkness is coming and a demarcation is showing between the faithful and the faithless in the community of greater Israel. The line is being drawn between those who respond with obedient faith and those who do not. When we jump to the second temple period with Jesus and his disciples, it's almost as if Jesus becomes Isaiah and his disciples replace Isaiah's disciples. Regardless of how we read the N.T. there is no doubt in my mind that the characters of the N.T. believed they were living in the very "last days". John the Baptizer and then Jesus begin preaching the kingdom of God was at hand. Syria fell to the Assyrians in 732? b.c.e then Israel in 722? b.c.e. and then Judah in 701? b.c.e. Some 700 years later we come to the N.T. The land of Israel was being ground to dust under the BOOT heel of the Rome empire. These people were feeling it, living it with every fiber of their being. They believed Hashem was at the door, the Kingdom was about to be set up. From my own re-studying of Isaiah from notes that I had made back in the middle 90's that I had been involved in for the last several days. I had some new thoughts. I was also looking at Genesis 49, where Jacob was giving out his last words to his sons and telling them what would befall them in the last days. As you are aware we believe we are living in the "last days".. Everyone who is alive on the earth today is living and experiencing something that has not existed for Bible believers of every color, creed or nationality, regardless if they are Jew, Gentile or Alien from outer space. That something.. The existence of the Nation of Israel as they existed during Bible times and some of the members of that Nation being in the land. At this point it does not matter who is in control of the land or government, Israel is back in the land.. Just like in the N.T days. If the people of Israel today want to know what to do.. Study the Prophet of Isaiah. This astounding fact had not happened for over 1800 years until just the last 60 years. The life time, of us here in dialogue reading this. Just think.. Your great grand fathers lived and died and never saw the Biblical nation of Israel back in the land. To them it was just another nation that existed once upon a time. Yes, they may have had faith Israel would return. Our great grand parents and relatives lived and die, without seeing it.. We are witnessing it first hand. Since 70 c.e. when the temple was destroyed, until the early 1900's when Jews / Israelites of the world begin to come back to the land in 1948, when the nation of Israel officially became a nation again recognize to one degree or another by the other nations of the world we have a sum of over 1800 years. The point I'm making, According to Jewish reckoning, from the creation of the world till Abraham's birth is 1948 years. From Abraham till the establishment of the state of Israel(1948) 3760 years. According to the reckoning of the common era(Gentiles) we have 3760 years from the creation of the world till the beginning of the common area - the year Zero (which does not exist, but you get the ideal, 01/01/0) the time of the N.T. Form the beginning of the common era till the establishment of the state of Israel we have 1948 years. Therefore, from Abraham till Jesus and the destruction of the temple in 70 C.E. we have a approx. sum of 1882 years. >From Jesus and the destruction of the temple until Today(01/2008) we have an approx. sum of 1938. the differenced between the above mention time periods is approx. 56 years give or take a little. Abraham and his descendants(Israel) as a people and a nation existed some 1882 years before Hashem scattered them to the wind. The message of Jesus and his followers, regardless of how it is understood has now gone on for 1960 years. If you play with the difference of 56 years you have to realize that the people of the second temple time period believed they were living in the "last days". Jump 1900 years into the future and today, we believe, we are living in the "last days". As we read and study the bible you see things happening in a slow drawn out way, in regards to time. The Exodus from Egypt, it did not happen in a day and the entrance into the land of Canaan took almost 40 years. Hos 6:2 - After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up,.... Something happened 2,000 years ago. But do you honestly think Jesus and his followers including Paul thought it would be another 2000 plus years and still NO kingdom of God? Is it a possibility that these faithful God fearing Israelites missed the mind of God? What will our children think if 2000 plus years in the future they are doing the same thing we are today? The opinions, discussions, view points and positions this subject has brought to the forefront are only just the tip of the iceberg in my humble opinion. I was involved(a fly on the wall) in discussions around these subjects going back 10- 20 years. I do not believe this topic was just hatched because it is the latest money maker coming down the pike. In the last 10 days I spent the time re-reading almost everything Dr. Tabor has put out on the net. Outside of this dialogue I have not spoken to Dr. Tabor in 8 years or so. There is no way a person can grasp the depth of all of this with a simple Readers Digest view. I after 25 years still struggle. The untold hours upon hours upon hours.(need I go on) of reading and study. I personally have witness Dr. Tabor adjust his hats, between a scholarly opinion and the opinion of a God fearing human searching for truth. We all in our own integrity have to do the same to arrive at the truth of a subject. God is doing something. This I believe to the core of my soul. The words in ( ) are mine. Read passage out loud and place emphasis on the (I will's). Eze 37:11 these bones are the whole house of Israel: Eze 37:12 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and (I will)cause you to come up out of your graves, and (I will) bring you into the land of Israel. Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I (will) have opened your graves, O my people, and (I will) brought you up out of your graves, Eze 37:14 And(I will) shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I(will) shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by these? Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and (I) will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and (I will) make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and (I) will gather them on every side, and (I will) bring them into their own land: Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and (I) will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I (will) have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children forever: and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and (I will) multiply them, and (I) will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore. Israel will be and the "heathen shall know". Shalom, marvin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/47069c00/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 15:25:56 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:25:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Princeton Symposium Results In-Reply-To: <005c01c85d0b$349061c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <61729.19857.qm@web37513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Great thoughts....and I believe you are right on target. mhyde wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } In the N.T. James the brother of Jesus said: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. v.22-24 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. v.19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: The last few days / weeks I?ve been doing some re-studying. The prophet Isaiah spoke of the need for Israel / Judah to repent and turn back to Hashem or the destruction and scattering was coming. By the time you read from Isaiah 1 to chapter 9 you see that the darkness is coming and a demarcation is showing between the faithful and the faithless in the community of greater Israel. The line is being drawn between those who respond with obedient faith and those who do not. When we jump to the second temple period with Jesus and his disciples, it?s almost as if Jesus becomes Isaiah and his disciples replace Isaiah?s disciples. Regardless of how we read the N.T. there is no doubt in my mind that the characters of the N.T. believed they were living in the very ?last days?. John the Baptizer and then Jesus begin preaching the kingdom of God was at hand. Syria fell to the Assyrians in 732? b.c.e then Israel in 722? b.c.e. and then Judah in 701? b.c.e. Some 700 years later we come to the N.T. The land of Israel was being ground to dust under the BOOT heel of the Rome empire. These people were feeling it, living it with every fiber of their being. They believed Hashem was at the door, the Kingdom was about to be set up. From my own re-studying of Isaiah from notes that I had made back in the middle 90?s that I had been involved in for the last several days. I had some new thoughts. I was also looking at Genesis 49, where Jacob was giving out his last words to his sons and telling them what would befall them in the last days. As you are aware we believe we are living in the ?last days? . Everyone who is alive on the earth today is living and experiencing something that has not existed for Bible believers of every color, creed or nationality, regardless if they are Jew, Gentile or Alien from outer space. That something The existence of the Nation of Israel as they existed during Bible times and some of the members of that Nation being in the land. At this point it does not matter who is in control of the land or government, Israel is back in the land . Just like in the N.T days. If the people of Israel today want to know what to do . Study the Prophet of Isaiah. This astounding fact had not happened for over 1800 years until just the last 60 years. The life time, of us here in dialogue reading this. Just think . Your great grand fathers lived and died and never saw the Biblical nation of Israel back in the land. To them it was just another nation that existed once upon a time. Yes, they may have had faith Israel would return. Our great grand parents and relatives lived and die, without seeing it . We are witnessing it first hand. Since 70 c.e. when the temple was destroyed, until the early 1900?s when Jews / Israelites of the world begin to come back to the land in 1948, when the nation of Israel officially became a nation again recognize to one degree or another by the other nations of the world we have a sum of over 1800 years. The point I?m making, According to Jewish reckoning, from the creation of the world till Abraham?s birth is 1948 years. From Abraham till the establishment of the state of Israel(1948) 3760 years. According to the reckoning of the common era(Gentiles) we have 3760 years from the creation of the world till the beginning of the common area - the year Zero (which does not exist, but you get the ideal, 01/01/0) the time of the N.T. Form the beginning of the common era till the establishment of the state of Israel we have 1948 years. Therefore, from Abraham till Jesus and the destruction of the temple in 70 C.E. we have a approx. sum of 1882 years. >From Jesus and the destruction of the temple until Today(01/2008) we have an approx. sum of 1938. the differenced between the above mention time periods is approx. 56 years give or take a little. Abraham and his descendants(Israel) as a people and a nation existed some 1882 years before Hashem scattered them to the wind. The message of Jesus and his followers, regardless of how it is understood has now gone on for 1960 years. If you play with the difference of 56 years you have to realize that the people of the second temple time period believed they were living in the ?last days?. Jump 1900 years into the future and today, we believe, we are living in the ?last days?. As we read and study the bible you see things happening in a slow drawn out way, in regards to time. The Exodus from Egypt, it did not happen in a day and the entrance into the land of Canaan took almost 40 years. Hos 6:2 - After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up,.... Something happened 2,000 years ago. But do you honestly think Jesus and his followers including Paul thought it would be another 2000 plus years and still NO kingdom of God? Is it a possibility that these faithful God fearing Israelites missed the mind of God? What will our children think if 2000 plus years in the future they are doing the same thing we are today? The opinions, discussions, view points and positions this subject has brought to the forefront are only just the tip of the iceberg in my humble opinion. I was involved(a fly on the wall) in discussions around these subjects going back 10- 20 years. I do not believe this topic was just hatched because it is the latest money maker coming down the pike. In the last 10 days I spent the time re-reading almost everything Dr. Tabor has put out on the net. Outside of this dialogue I have not spoken to Dr. Tabor in 8 years or so. There is no way a person can grasp the depth of all of this with a simple Readers Digest view. I after 25 years still struggle. The untold hours upon hours upon hours (need I go on) of reading and study. I personally have witness Dr. Tabor adjust his hats, between a scholarly opinion and the opinion of a God fearing human searching for truth. We all in our own integrity have to do the same to arrive at the truth of a subject. God is doing something. This I believe to the core of my soul. The words in ( ) are mine. Read passage out loud and place emphasis on the (I will?s). Eze 37:11 these bones are the whole house of Israel: Eze 37:12 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and (I will)cause you to come up out of your graves, and (I will) bring you into the land of Israel. Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I (will) have opened your graves, O my people, and (I will) brought you up out of your graves, Eze 37:14 And(I will) shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I(will) shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by these? Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and (I) will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and (I will) make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and (I) will gather them on every side, and (I will) bring them into their own land: Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and (I) will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I (will) have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children forever: and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and (I will) multiply them, and (I) will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore. Israel will be and the ?heathen shall know?. Shalom, marvin _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/e5fe7ee1/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 15:26:33 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:26:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Dialogue] Re:Permission to forward???... In-Reply-To: <002301c85d0f$4e226a30$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <604530.73223.qm@web37502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Loy, you have my permission Loy wrote: Paul & Hanock, May I have permission to forward this e-mail on to a friend who needs to hear what you just wrote? Thanks, Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul-Eugene Miller To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] My latest PR... Hanoch, I just recently got on this dialogue, and it has been encouraging and uplifting. I have been seeking the heart of the Father for more than 20 years, but only in the last 5 years have my eyes and ears been opened to hear the truth...that the way I was taught, and "christianity" as a whole walks in deception. The verse that popped into your head is indeed an inspiring [and scary] verse. Many times when that happens to me, it is because the Father has been trying to communicate to me through His Spirit, but my thick skull didn't let it penetrate through! Not saying that you have a thick skull !!!!! There is indeed a famine for the TaNaK in the land today. Never before in the history of mankind has there been such an exposure of the "the Word", and yet man is perishing on every side. The emptiness that most 'church going' people feel is because they 'hear' the Word preached [not the truth, of course], but don't live it. They are like the people of Isaiah's and Yahshua's time..."they have ears that hear not, and eyes that see not" Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:15. Even though there is more "Scripture" quoted from the pulpits today than ever before, there is a famine in the land. People are wandering aimlessly, with no direction, waiting for J-s-s to return so they don't have to go through any persecution or tribulation. We are truly living in a Laodicean [lukewarm] age, and YHWH said He will spit them out of His mouth. Revelation 3:14-16. YHWH is allowing you to see the world through His eyes, and taking you closer and closer to Him. "Now we see through a glass darkly, but when we see Him face to face, we shall see Him as He really is." Hopefully this will shed a little light on your 'dilemma', and be encouraged, my brother. Paul YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shalom to all, Well, indeed it happened again - one week ago exactly, having a Biblical verse # pop into my head. I have spent the entire week trying to figure out what it means for me (when you've been in Operations Management professionally, you always try to figure out 'what do I do next?'). I am beyond unnerved and discomforted by this, because until recently, this has never, ever happened to me. Also, since I am not familiar with the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) in a Chapter/Verse manner - until I get to a Tanach - I have no idea where I'm being led... I mentioned this happening to me to a few old pals on the list last week, trying to determine what it 'all' means. Honestly, I get goose bumps whenever I think of this whole experience....I am trying to just sort of, 'open up myself to the experience,' and hope that it adds up to pointing me in a particular direction, and/or with a plan of action. It's clear it has to do with the 'Ten Tribes' - but I have not gotten beyond that general direction yet. If anyone has some 'pop theories' they want to share with me - go for it! I am opening myself up to a whole new world of experiencing a spiritual connection with HaShem that I (obviously) did not have before. Okay, so this is what happened: I was walking toward the Subway, last Monday morning at approximately 9:05AM, with my mind cluttered with that night's Board Meeting that I had to attend, and feeling sorry for myself that I would likely not get home until midnight, at best. All of a sudden, I 'sense' - I certainly didn't 'hear' anything, Amos....and then the number 11, then 8, then 8:11.....now, my sense of these PR's (for me, in any case..) is that I get a verse to start with, and then I'm supposed to continue reading...at least for another Chapter, or so. Well, still had to get on the Subway - an experience that's the antithesis of anything spiritual! It took me almost 2 hours to get to work, and get up to my office and open a Tanach. First, I looked for Amos, the 11th Chapter. Everyone, open up your Tanach to Amos, Chapter 11.....ha! There isn't one.....But there IS a Chapter 8....and a verse 11....and it wasn't until I read it in Hebrew that I realized what it was..... "A time is coming - declares my L-rd G-d --- when I will send a famine upon the land: not a hunger for bread or a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of the L-rd." Amos 8:11 But then as I scanned downward on the page, I startled myself when I found THIS in the very next Chapter: "But I will not wholly wipe out the House of Jacob --- declares the L-rd. For I will give the order and shake the House of Israel ---- Through all the nations ----- As one shakes (sand) in a sieve, And not a pebble falls to the ground." Amos 9:8&9 Okay, so at this point, I'm looking around for Rod Serling to step in and explain that I'm in the "Twilight Zone," or something. But no Rod, no further explanation....and I've wrestled all week with this, hoping to come to a conclusion (of some sort) before bringing it to you folks. But I have had no further insight...at least not yet. Had to tell you guys.... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah --------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/0fba4156/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 22 19:49:52 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:49:52 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Input on the PR Message-ID: Hi Steve - Thanks...I appreciate all your input in trying to help me analyze what's going on in my head. I could be wrong, but I seem to sense that my upcoming trip to Israel will (somehow) provide some additional insights, and/or clarification. Or maybe that's just me being hopeful, I don't really know. However, every time I've been to Israel (8 times previously), it has led me further along a 'derech,' or path. Not necessarily the same path, but maybe one day I'll be able to sort of, 'put the points together' and figure out what the picture is supposed to be. My sense right now, is that it is related to the Restoration of ALL the Tribes, The Restoration of the Har HaBayit (Temple Mount) and the Restoration of all the 'Lost Jews,' scattered all over the world (something I've been researching for years). Well, if that is what I'm supposed to be doing....a strategic plan would definitely be in order.....a bit of a tall order, even for a 'dreamer' like me.... Ideas will gladly be welcomed at this point.... :-) B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/c6b1966b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 22 20:53:55 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:53:55 EST Subject: [Dialogue] My latest PR... Message-ID: Dear Paul, Thanks very much for your note, and sharing your 'take' on what's popping through my head. And by the way, I DO have a thick skull! :-) I'm glad you're enjoying this Dialogue list, I am too....I just feel that everyone has so much to share - seems like a great group of people! Looking forward to 'seeing' you often! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/c7d13a39/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jan 22 20:57:07 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:57:07 EST Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem...the city of Truth Message-ID: Absolutely Paul!! I'm with you - those days ARE coming.... Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/4def25a2/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 22 21:46:33 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:46:33 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Little More About Tu B'Shevat Message-ID: <006901c85d72$8c511c80$643c66c9@bettygivin> Dear friends, Like most of yours, my inbox is so flooded with emails, that I sometimes get confused what I have answered and what I have not.just in case I did not follow thru with my intent (kavanah), I wanted to tell you, Hanoch and Steve, how much I appreciated your info on this beautiful little festival. There is so much to learn! I realize that Tu B'Shevat is over for most of us; but I am not ready for it to be over.the sun has already gone down here in Texas. I am wondering if we might possibly s- -t- r- e- t- c h it out a bit as we sometimes do Shabbat! I was just listening to Rabbi Richman on Arutz7 speak on Tu B'Shevat and thought some of you might want to listen. Link is http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/. He had some wonderful thoughts on which to meditate. As I think both Hanoch and Steve mentioned earlier, he too made mention of the sap or life force of the tree beginning to "wake up." Even though for all appearances, it is still "winter," the sap begins to flow, pulsating thru the tree and giving it new life. He likened this pulsating renewal of the sap in the tree to the pulsating renewal that can take place heart of man/woman. As the tree renews itself after being dormant, so can we! We can indeed learn from Nature and go to HaShem with prayers of t'shuvah and renewal! He had many interesting points.another was that the 16th century kabbalists or mystics of Safed in Northern Israel, on not only developed a seder, but also taught that Tu B'Shevat had a direct connection to Sukkoth and the etrog, which is the fruit of the hadar tree. The etrog that we wave with the lulav on Sukkoth is symbolic of the heart, which should be beautiful and pure. He said that we should pray to merit a beautiful etrog on Sukkoth and that the etrog that we find on Sukkoth will only be as beautiful as our prayers on Tu B'Shevat. and that the kavanah (intent) of our hearts that is flowing thru us in our prayers is a parallel to the sap that flows thru the tree and allows it to renew itself and bear beautiful fruit. Quite mystical, but very beautiful to meditate on, don't you think? He also spoke of the connection between the physical rain from heaven than nourishes the tree as being compared to G-d's word.as well as the light necessary for the growth of the tree.thus making the connection between the tree and people. I really cannot do his discussion justice.it is really well worth listening to As in Hanoch's PR, there is a famine in the land.but not for literal food and water. it is a famine for the Word of G-d! I did find some verses regarding "trees" and mankind and the need for sustenance, both bread and water.and the "Tree of Life" that I thought were very appropriate for us to meditate on Psalms 1:2-3 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in His law doth he meditate day and night. 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by streams of water, that brings forth fruit in its season Psalms 104: 13-16 13 Who waterest the mountains from Thine upper chambers; the earth is full of the fruit of Thy works. 14 Who causeth the grass to spring up for the cattle, and herb for the service of man; to bring forth bread out of the earth, 15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, making the face brighter than oil, and bread that stayeth man's heart. 16 The trees of the LORD have their fill, the cedars of Lebanon, which He hath planted; Psalm 92: 13-15 13 The righteous shall flourish like the palm-tree; he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon. 14 Planted in the house of the LORD, they shall flourish in the courts of our God. 15 They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be full of sap and richness; Proverbs 3:18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her, and happy is every one that holdest her fast. Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that is wise winneth souls Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick; but desire fulfilled is a tree of life Isaiah 55: 12 12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace; the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. (I love that one!!! Can't you just see it ???) All of this just seems so relevant to what is going on with the PR's and this particular festival for this day, Tu B'Shevat falling in the midst of this week's parsha, Yitro, which outlines the TEN WORDS, sayings or Commandments.and is at the very "Heart" of the whole Torah message.let us not be a part of the famine in the land.and become malnourished and dehydrated.As HaShem sends the rain in its seasons, lets us be watered and nourished by His Word! This post got a little more involved and a little longer than I expected.sorry! Love and Blessings for Renewal! Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/4302c08e/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jan 22 22:56:43 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:56:43 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] P.S. A "little" More About Tu B'Shevat-Matisayahu Message-ID: <000401c85d7c$596f8db0$643c66c9@bettygivin> I just thought I would mention to you Matisayahu (?) fans, that Rabbi Richman mentioned one of his songs, called, ?Chop ?em Down,? in connection with the connotation of trees being representative of man. 19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by wielding an axe against them; for thou mayest eat of them, but thou shalt not cut them down; for is the tree of the field man, that it should be besieged of thee? ?? ????-?????? ???-???? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ??????????????????, ???-????????? ???-?????? ????????? ?????? ????????--???? ????????? ??????, ??????? ??? ???????: ???? ??????? ??? ?????????, ????? ?????????? ??????????. Rabbi Richman said that in the Hebrew, it says ?for a man is a tree of a field.? I will let some of you that are more versed in Hebrew take a look. Interesting idea. Hope all had a good day today, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080122/cfe0f45c/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 23 00:37:25 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:37:25 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Just for laughs! In-Reply-To: <004301c857a9$3c706eb0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <004b01c85d8a$6ab620d0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Marvin, I just found this when going thru my email.it looks like I missed it the first time. Yes, we all do need a good laugh once in a while; and this should do it. Thanks much, Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:03 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Just for laughs! We all need a good laugh and these are enjoyable. They are from a book titled Little Wonders by Mary Hollingsworth who says: One of our favorite jobs has been leading junior church. We try to do more than baby-sit our church's beloved little ankle-biters during their time in our special junior church facility. We aim to give them a solid background in biblical history. At the end of each year, we give them pencils and paper and ask them to chronicle what they have learned. This assignment never fails to elicit some intriguing responses. In case you're a little foggy on your biblical history, let our junior church students help you with this complete overview of the Bible, compiled from their essays: In the beginning, which occurred near the start, there was nothing but God, darkness,and some gas. The Bible says, "The Lord thy God is one," but I think He must be a lot older than that. Anyway, God said, "Give me a light!" and someone did. Then God made the world. He split the Adam and made Eve. Adam and Eve were naked, but they weren't embarrassed because mirrors hadn't been invented yet. Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating one bad apple, so they were driven from the Garden of Eden. Not sure what they were driven in though, because they didn't have cars. Adam and Eve had a son, Cain, who hated his brother as long as he was Abel. Pretty soon all of the early people died off, except for Methuselah, who lived to be like a million or something. One of the next important people was Noah, who was a good guy, but one of his kids was kind of a ham. Noah built a large boat and put his family and some animals on it. He asked some other people to join him, but they said they would have to take a rain check. After Noah came Abraham , Isaac, and Jacob. Jacob was more famous than his brother, Esau, because Esau sold Jacob his birthmark in exchange for some pot roast. Jacob had a son named Joseph who wore a really loud sports coat. Another important Bible guy is Moses, whose real name was Charlton Heston. Moses led the Israel Lights out of Egypt and away from the evil Pharaoh after God sent ten plagues on Pharaoh's people. These plagues included frogs, mice, lice, bowels, and no cable. God fed the Israel Lights every day with manicotti. Then He gave them Hi s top ten Commandments. These include don't lie, cheat, smoke, dance, or covet your neighbor's bottom (the Bible uses a bad word for bottom that I'm not supposed to say. But my Dad uses it sometimes when he talks about the President). Oh, yeah, I just thought of one more: Humor they father and they mother. One of Moses' best helpers was Joshua who was the first Bible guy to use spies. Joshua fought the battle of Geritol and the fence fell over on the town. After Joshua came David. He got to be king by killing a giant with a slingshot. He had a son named Solomon who had about 300 wives and 500 porcupines. My teacher says he was wise, but that doesn't sound very wise to me. After Solomon there were a bunch of major league prophets. One of these was Jonah, who was swallowed by a big whale and then barfed up on the shore. There were also some minor league prophets, but I guess we don't have to worry about them. After the Old Testament came the New Testament. Jesus is the star of the New Testament. He was born in Bethlehem in a barn. (I wish I had been born in a barn, too, because my mom is always saying to me, "Close the door! Were you born in a barn" It would be nice to say, "As a matter of fact, I was.") During His life, Jesus had many arguments with sinners like the Pharisees and the Republicans. Jesus also had twelve opossums. The worst one was Judas Asparagus. Judas was so evil that they named a terrible vegetable after him. Jesus was a great man. He healed many leopards and even preached to some Germans on the Mount. But the Republicans and all those guys put Jesus on trial before Pontius the Pilot. Pilot didn't stick up for Jesus. He just washed his hands instead. Anyways, Jesus died for our sins, then came back to life again. He went up to Heaven but will be back at the end of the Aluminum . His return is foretold in the book of Revolution. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080123/5c6038ad/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jan 23 05:57:18 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:57:18 EST Subject: [Dialogue] quote from Psalms for 16 Shevat 5768 Message-ID: Shalom Chaverim Yikarim, from the Lekarev Report: O love Hashem, all you His godly ones; Hashem preserves the faithful, and plentifully repays him that acts proudly. Psalm 31:23 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080123/ede35cbb/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Wed Jan 23 09:55:31 2008 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:55:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Little More About Tu B'Shevat References: <006901c85d72$8c511c80$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <027b01c85dd8$62187bf0$6501a8c0@dickl> i agree Betty. The flood could be lowered if we used the dialogue list for dialogue & left the uilist alone for its specific purpose. Are there any out there that are NOT on the dialogue list & need the uilist:??????? If not then we could stop duel mailings. What do others think????? Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 10:46 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A Little More About Tu B'Shevat Dear friends, Like most of yours, my inbox is so flooded with emails, that I sometimes get confused what I have answered and what I have not.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080123/f8660044/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jan 23 10:50:35 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:50:35 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] A Little More About Tu B'Shevat & dual mailings In-Reply-To: <027b01c85dd8$62187bf0$6501a8c0@dickl> Message-ID: <002f01c85de0$139098c0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Hi Dick, Actually, I was not complaining about the number of posts; and I am really sorry if it came across that way. In fact, I love it when my inbox is full! I just wanted to make sure that I told Hanoch and Steve how much I had appreciated what they had written, and did not remember whether I had. I don't have a problem with the dual mailings. My feeling is that each list is separate, but there are some subject matters that easily cross over, while some do not. I don't think that everyone that is on the uilist is on the dialogue list; and I know that everyone that is on the dialogue list is not on the uilist. My opinion is that if we are on both lists, and have some thoughts to share that would benefit both groups (such as I thought when I wrote this post on Tu B'Shevat), that we should definitely send them out to both groups. On the receiving end, we can either open up each message and delete one if we choose, or we can answer both and send out a dual mailing. We always have the option to hit the "delete" button whenever we choose. In my opinion, I think the effort in sending and opening up all the emails is worth the dual mailings. I certainly do not have all the answers. Perhaps others have some suggestions? Thanks Dick, Betty/Elisheva P.S. Since you sent this only to the dialogue list, I am replying to that list only. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:56 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Little More About Tu B'Shevat i agree Betty. The flood could be lowered if we used the dialogue list for dialogue & left the uilist alone for its specific purpose. Are there any out there that are NOT on the dialogue list & need the uilist:??????? If not then we could stop duel mailings. What do others think????? Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 10:46 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A Little More About Tu B'Shevat Dear friends, Like most of yours, my inbox is so flooded with emails, that I sometimes get confused what I have answered and what I have not.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080123/a988c0e0/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 11:24:00 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:24:00 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem...the city of Truth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0801230924o6adbc805h3ab7c456dfeb37f3@mail.gmail.com> This is the first I have heard of this-the Temple Mount not being the Temple Mount. I googled it and found this site: http://www.askelm.com/temple/t980504.htm . This is very disturbing to me. I really don't know what to think and would appreciate comments from people who know more than I. Cylde, is this what you were referring to? Kim On Jan 22, 2008 10:03 AM, wrote: > Well now, the two texts from the prophets, Isaiah 2:2-3 and Zechariah 8:3 > catch my interest. As a student of the prophetic word of YHVH Elohim for > nearly 50 years now, Paul-Eugene Miller opens with -Be encouraged, it will > come to pass in the last days. The time of the end - the last days have been > thought several times in history to be at hand. All have been wrong thus > far. But nevertheless there is to be one generation that will experience the > end of the ages as we know it. Are we that generation, and how would we > know if we are? In the scroll of the prophet Daniel from the deportations of > the Jews to Babylon, to the overthrow by the Persians, to the conquest of > the Greeks, to the fourth and last empire Rome, and then to the resurrection > of the dead, the great sweep of history reveals no extended period of time. > In other words, from beginning to the end in Daniel's scroll is one whole > scenario without extended time breaks. It is no wonder why the DSS > community and the Nazarene movement thought they were the generation upon > whom the end of the ages had come. They were not and several times > throughout history the end of the ages have been predicted to be at hand. > > And so again I ask, if we are the generation upon whom the end of the ages > has come, how could we know that to be the case? My research co-partner Gary > Arvidson and I have done extensive work on the scroll of Daniel as well as > other predictions in the word of God. We have suggested that through > historical documentation the 70 weeks, i.e. 70 heptads - 490 years ended > after a seven year war declared by Rome upon the Jews. History demonstrates > that after three and one half years of the seven year war the second temple > lay in smoldering ruins and the city of Jerusalem was burnt and destroyed. > An additional three and one half years the war ended with the remaining > strongholds taken by the Roman legions. It seemed our research brought much > of what was predicted by the prophets as though a curtain came down like a > two act presentation with fulfilled prophecy put on hold, awaiting for > the curtain to rise for the second act which would occur in the last days. > > If we have gotten the historical picture correct then we have certain > events, perhaps even current events that will prove one way or the other if > indeed we are the generation upon whom the end of the ages has come, and the > future age of the kingdom of God replacing the kingdoms of this world is > near. One thing we can be sure about is the end of the ages cannot come > without Judah being a nation and possessing Zion. To this group you know > that is the case. That there has been a delay of the kingdom of God, and > that kingdom restored to the children of Israel, is what the UIWU is all > about. God is a God of patterns, he gets it right the first time and does > not need to experiment to discover the best way to work his plan and > purpose. By a mighty hand YHVH lead the children of Israel out of their > bondage in Egypt. A careful reading of Isaiah 11, we find YHVH stating that > he will set his hand the second time, the first being when he lead the whole > house of Israel out of Egypt. > > When they crossed over the river of Jordan it was inquired of YHVH who > should go up first to take